19 Episode results for "Jack Loney"

Hoffa, Chapter 5 - The Finale

Shattered: White Boy Rick

39:31 min | 1 year ago

Hoffa, Chapter 5 - The Finale

"Shattered listeners. I WanNa tell you about a podcast from slate. I think you might like it's called man up. The host is Ayman is my own and in each episode. Oh this season he's helping someone who's stuck on some idea or another about what a man should be for virgin in his mid twenties. WHO's starting to get worried? He talks to an empathetic dating expert for a daughter who finds it impossible to buy her dad gifts. He brings in a woman who runs a men's clothing company. Sometimes the person trying to figure things out is aiming himself. You'll be surprised how much you can learn from. People in the middle of doing the work. Subscribe to man Dan up in tune in every week. Wherever you get your podcasts? Today's episode of shattered is brought to you by tubbies Detroit's original taken cheese since one thousand nine hundred sixty eight route in the parking garage garage here at WD in Detroit and for this final episode. We thought we do something a little different so come on get in the car. We're going to take a little ride first. Question is is a word we WANNA start. Guess it matters Komo for the sake of horry. Let's go. Let's start at the Red Fox and then go to the house. Okay so we can kind of get a sense. The how close. They are to each other hats on West on West Lafayette Boulevard for Third Avenue. In today's episode. We're going to visit some of the locations that are key to the hoffer story. Our first stop is about twenty miles north of Detroit so why were riding. Let's get caught up on the events that led to Hoffa's his final meeting in the summer of nineteen seventy five Hoffa was running out of options. He wanted the power back in his hands Presidency Agency of the teamsters union and he believed he could get it but the union offered no support. His longtime organized crime associates told him he should take his pension inching and retire but he had no interest in that Hossam knew that the only way back to power was if he could convince east coast. Crime and Labor boss Tony Only Provenzano to back him. What Hoffa didn't know was that a decision had already been made? My bosses believed Hoffa was going to share their secrets with the the FBI. So Jimmy Hoffa had to go journalist. Dan Modiin says he spoke to an informant. Who claimed it was Tony? Provenzano who put a contract out on Hoffa's life and late nineteen seventy-three early nineteen. Seventy four was was involved in your issues the first thing you have to understand former assistant. US Attorney Keith. Corbett every city was controlled by the boss of that city New York City being somewhat exceptional in that they had five families. But basically what happens is if you were the provenzano say coming in from New Jersey and your intention was to do something to Jimmy. Jimmy Hoffa Mob Etiquette for out of a better word would have required that you seek the permission and authorisation of the the family here in Detroit so if people from outside Detroit Cain to Detroit for the purpose of Say Kidnapping Killing Jimmy Hoffa. It would have been necessary to meet meet with the boss of the Detroit family and indicate what you were going to do Scott Bernstein thinks it was Detroit's crime in boss. Joseph Rally who ordered the hit not provenzano. He says Tony Pro wasn't a powerful enough. Figured I've made that call. Whether it originated genetic was a rally or Tony Provenzano or another powerful member of the Mafia but most experts agree the Detroit mafia was heavily involved in making. It happen two brothers in particular the Jack alone. He's both Tony Jack. Aloni and his brother Billy liked the sort of the gun. Jaren guy the approach. They liked to be known as organized crime figures and they would the public face of Detroit organized crime in the Seventies. Eighties Nineties indies. Because they liked to spotlight the Jack Loney said known Hoffa since the nineteen forties also trusted them so when they told told him they could help him make peace Tony Provenzano. He'd likely believed them. They don't come at your guns blazing they come at you like. They're your best friend and they want to help you out and they they rocky asleep at the they singing lullaby and then right when you're about to close your eyes and you know go off to Dreamland they stick shift in your back or put two in the back of your head with a with five millimeter the nine millimeter from wd IV and Graham media. My name is Steve Garagiola. You're listening to shattered season. Four Hafa episode five the finale. They knew that the the best way to get Hoffa out into the open been was to tell him that. Tony Provenzano was open to making a peace agreement and that they would let bygones be bygones. John's in they would meet put everything aside and they could. Provenzano was agreeable to giving him the support that often needed for the seventy six election. They just had to come together in a sit down. That meeting was set for the afternoon of July thirtieth office. Former driver Marvin Elkins says. He had a bad feeling the day before. I told Mr Hoffa there are people that are upset with you. His words to me were Marvin. My people will never army Bill Buffa Lino the longtime in house counsel attorney for both teamsters and the Detroit mob. Someone that was believed by a number of members of law enforcement to be both a made member of the Mafia as well as a attorney. His daughter daughter was being married on the first weekend of August hoffa disappeared on Wednesday July thirtieth nineteen seventy five and it was that following Friday and Saturday at this wedding was to take place. So when the Jack Aloni's came and told Jimmy Hoffa Zano is willing to sit down with you. Do and and put your differences aside and give you his support and oh by the way. He's actually coming in for the Buffalo Lino wedding this week so this will be a perfect time for us to all meet. It was very believable to Jimmy Hoffa. Because he knew that Tony Provenzano would be coming in for the Buffalo and already an awful wanted to believe it he. He shouldn't have believed it. Because it's crazy to think that after all these years and all these threats and all of this acrimony that all of a sudden twenty provenzano is going to be open and to giving him what he's been looking for this whole time and provide him the voting delegation to get reelected but Hoffa was so desperate to take back the teamsters. He started convinced himself of stuff. That wasn't true. And the Jacqueline's convinced him that They could arrange the sit down for July thirtieth at the Red Fox on telegraph and Maple for lunch all right. We are in Bloomfield Township Telegraph road and maple which is fifteen mile. That's the way we do. Our Roads Woods in Detroit by miles. We're at the Andaman restaurant which is now an upscale Italian restaurant that In nineteen seventy five was the marcus. Red Fox were standing in the parking lot. The restaurant has changed a lot. It's been remodeled and refurbished in the course Horsa forty-five years new ownership new new name. But this was the place Jimmy Hoffa spent his last afternoon. And it's a little eerie to stand here and think about that afternoon and what happened right here in this parking lot. From this point forward word. We don't know for sure what happened. Jimmy HOFFA HIS PONTIAC. Granville was found in the restaurant parking lot and he was seen by witnesses climbing into Maroon. Mercury Marquee the three men Hoffa was expecting Tony. Jack Aloni Tony Provenzano. And mob Associate Lenny Schultz. Never ever showed so. WHO DID HOFFA get in the car? With where was he killed. How was he killed? What happened to the body? What about a five hard minute? Drive north of the Marcus Red Fox restaurant or in front of a home along Lake Road were also in Bloomfield township. In one thousand nine hundred seventy five. This House was owned by a guy named Carlo Licata. He was a soldier in the Detroit. Mafia investigator journal Scott Bernstein. Believes this is the place where Jimmy offer was killed. I believe that I'm the afternoon July. Thirtieth Nineteen Seventy Five Billy Jack Loney Tony's brother Anthony Tony Pal Pelizzola. Oh who was a upcoming Detroit. Mobster that represented the vitality crew don in Greek town. As well as Salvator Sally Bugs Giulio who who is representing twenty Provenzano's Jennifer as crew picked Hoffa up. At the parking lot. The Red Fox enjoy Jacqueline's mercury marquee and enticed enticed him into the Car Lord Him to this meeting under the pretense that the meeting that they were supposed to have at the Red Fox had been moved down the street to the Lukasz again. This is a house that Hoffa had met Jack Colonia before he was familiar with the residency. had been to sit down here so it wouldn't have been odd to him to be told that and I believe he was taking here and probably killed pretty quickly upon setting foot on the property Possibly in the garage or right while he was walking into the house from the garage but recently Bernstein heard from a former mob associate of Lenny Schultz with a new story. He says Schultz told the mob. Associate back in the ninety S. That Hoffa was killed at Schultz's home in Franklin Michigan. Also a short drive from the Marcus Red Fox restaurant superiors according to Bernstein. This unnamed mob associate said quote. I they choked him out in the living room and gave the body to row in McMaster to get rid of suspicious. End Quote Bernstein. Says he has reason to question the reliability of this account and is still backing his Licata house theory as as the scene of the murder another popular theory about where Hoffa was killed was offered by. Franks Sharon in the book. I heard you paint houses. The New Scorsese Film. The Irishman is based on that book infractions. Telling of that day HOFFA was driven to a house in northwest Detroit where Sharon shot and killed him around the intersection of Seven Evergreen. which really doesn't make any sense to me? I can't source the house. You can't tell me whose house that was. Wherever they took him was going to be very controlled secured environment? Were the mobsters. That were perpetrating. The murder would be able to control every we factor every Every variable would have been secured and completely controlled the idea that they would take Jimmy Hoffa on a twenty minute drive from the Red Fox to that That house just doesn't make sense to me. HOFFA would not feel comfortable egg point to a house you never been to before be driving a a long distance journalist. Dan Monday doesn't believe Sharon either French. I'm sure Frankie Sharon did. That's pretty nasty word. I just don't think he's committed the murders these big murders. He's confessed on. Do not think he killed Jimmy Hoffa. The day. After Hoffa disappeared his family. We begin to believe the worst. This is James Hoffa junior when my mother called me on that morning and she told me that he had not come home all night and not called. I knew I could only draw the worst conclusions because that was not my father. It wasn't like Hoffa not to come home at night or at least call. There had been no word from him since the previous afternoon. We would also like to make ace. Special appeal to the two million brother and sister. teamster remembers for them to aid us. In solving this heartbreaking mystery our mother has courageously survive many doodles and our thirty eight years of marriage. We have faith that someone somehow somewhere can help us locate our father. Shortly after his disappearance Hoffa's family gave the F. B. I.. Calendar which hung on Jimmy Hoffa's refrigerator in the square for Wednesday July thirtieth it read red t j two PM presumably. I'm meeting with Tony Jack. Aloni who was also known as Tony Jack Jack Aloni later questioned by the FBI said there was no plan meeting. And that he was with Lenny Schultz at the Southfield. Athletic Club that afternoon. We're in front of travelers tower. Or this is on Evergreen at ten mile now back in the seventies the lower levels of this building where the Southfield Athletic Club. The Club is long gone. Closed up about twenty years or so but it was a hop in place in the summer of nineteen seventy five the unofficial headquarters for Detroit. My boss Tony Colonie. So I spent the entire day in Southfield Athletic Club former assistant. US Attorney Keith. Corbett and he was not a particularly approachable person in normal events but it seems like every fifteen minutes he was asking somebody in Southfield Athletic Club. What time is it now so that you could basically bring being in a parade of witnesses? Tony on asked me what time it was twelve fifteen pm. Twelve thirty PM somebody else. He asked me what time it was at. One o'clock talk in order to establish that he was present in the Southfield Athletic Club during the high period of time when Mr Hoffa disappeared so those are the kinds kinds of things that sort of Boston by any investigators head but nevertheless it was excellent alibi for healthy Jacqueline as to where he was in the days that followed Hoffa's disappearance the FBI. Question Tony Provenzano. He had people who swore he was in Union City New Jersey on July thirtieth. You've all day playing cards. The FBI was never able to verify that story. They began to focus on two men as Hoffa's suspected assassins Asan's Thomas Andromeda and Salvator Braga Leo both soldiers in the Genovese crime family. Who worked for Tony Provenzano Bre Guglielmo told the FBI that he was among those playing cards with Tony Pro in New Jersey? That day. Dan Day was a young reporter investigating the teamsters teamster pension fund around the time Hoffa disappeared after morning. Gulia was suspected of the murder. He says he called him up. At Brasilia's New Jersey teamster hall. SALGA comes on the phone and I said Mr Gulia. He's a WHO's this I said my name's sampled a reporter and He would you want to talk to me about. I said the Hoffa case talk about us. What makes you think I've got anything to say about that? I said because Mr Julia you've been arrested or divided and yet everybody is blaming you for this murder. Moldavia talked his way into a meeting with Braga Leo at Local Five Sixty Sixty in Union city New Jersey and I was in the waiting room and Rilya comes into the room. Little Guy tough off wiry and bill buffaloes with and I knew bill buffa Lena from the grand jury the previous year so I share a Guinea. How you doing nice to see you know how are you sir? Nice to meet you. R- often Lino and Bruguera. Leo then invited day at lunch. And so the three of them get into Purdue Leo's car and drive to a nearby restaurant and sitting at a table sales brother Gabe and their associate Steve Andromeda and I ago I'm going to get the interview with office killers and so we eat. You know they. They're checking me out and stuff off. They weren't they won't let me turn the tape recorder on at that point. And that would finally a record Vincent I was okay. We went back to the union hall. So it's is BE SALGA Leo. Steve Intra Bill Buffalo. You know and also we were joined by Sammy. Provenzano who's Tony Provenzano's brother and so then stevie during the interview introduces be to Tommy. So I interviewed these guys three and a half hours on tape shape on tape and and what became clear was what happened. Was Steve Andromeda. Who I don't believe was involved in the actual murder? I I think he was Tony. Provenzano's ally in New Jersey. I think Tom you're in. China was right there I think. Tommy dress-up was a participant surly surly Salads Salads. The killer recently. Anthony Provenzano Thomas. Sandra and the portfolio brothers were indicted by grand juries in New York and New Jersey on matters not directly related to the HOFFA case. This is part of the government strategy to try to crack the mystery through continuous pressure. Gulia was brought twice ice before a federal grand jury in Detroit Investigating Hoffa's disappearance. He refused to testify and the FBI never had enough evidence to charge him. He was murdered on the streets of little Italy in New York in nineteen seventy eight less than two weeks after HOFFA's disappearance appearance the FBI reported. They had found blood in the back seat of what they believed to be. The car that drove off to his execution a Maroon Mercury Mercury Marquee belonging to Tony. Jack Aloni Son Joey. The FBI also knew that on July thirtieth that car had been driven by HOFFA's surrogate August son Chuckie. O'Brien chucky was from the very beginning portrayed by the FBI in its public discussions of the case as is the person who picked up Hoffa and drove him to his death. And if you think about it. This is completely despicable thing. If Jackie did it Hoffa was the closest thing jockey ever had to a father. chucky revered Hoffa half I love Chuckie referred to him as the second son. This is Chuckie. O'Brien Stepson Jack Goldsmith. He's a law professor at Harvard and spent the last several years working on a book. About Hoffa and O'Brien chucky was a man who was basically. His adult life was defined by. Why his closeness to Jimmy Hoffa he met Hoffa when he was nine years old? He was by half aside from the early fifties until late. Nineteen seventy four. Through all of his sales he took Josephine Hoffa to see Jim Half in prison so he was. He was very very close to Hoffa. He was also close to Anthony Jack Loney whom he also met as a young man and He knew lots of the senior Detroit. Crime Figures Jackie. O'Brien is the son of Sylvia Pagano the Mafia paramore. We talked about back in episode. One Kagawa was the original contact between Hoffa and the Detroit. Mafia back in the forties. And eventually O'Brien became the bridge between Hoffa and Mobsters Tony Jack Aloni and Tony Provenzano. But in late. Nineteen seventy four. O'Brien and Hoffa had a falling out when chucky learned for the first time time Hoffa has always said that he supported jockeys efforts to have a position local to ninety nine but he really never supported chunkys efforts to have serious labor responsibilities in the Union. Chucky finally confronted him about that in at Thanksgiving and that basically led to them him parting. Ways here's O'Brien speaking to WD IV back in nineteen ninety three. He describes why he was driving. The Maroon Marquee on the they hoffa disappeared. July thirtieth is was the worst thing in my life. Chucky says he was in the process of moving to Florida and didn't have a car that day so we borrowed borrowed one from his friend joy. Jack Loney the son of chunkys Uncle Tony. He delivered to large frozen salmon. A gift from Seattle teamster to bobby homes in his wife in suburban Farmington hills. The fish was melting water and blood on the seat of the car. I'm carrying it in the House and she's a particular housekeeper and she's telling me you're ruining in Florida you're getting that water and blood overs later. Chunky says he had the car clean. Did a car wash. Not far from the Red Fox then returned the car and got a ride back to the home home where he was staying just a few minutes from the Red Fox bobby homes and his wife Violet. The recipients of the fish corroborated O'Brien story. I don't think Chuckie O'Brien would have would ever. I've heard Jimmy Hoffa under any circumstances. I think he would have died for Jack. Goldsmith can't say for sure sure that his step-dad is innocent of involvement in Hoffa's murder but says he is poured over grand jury testimony and FBI witness statements and piece together together. The time line of the afternoon of July Thirtieth Goldsmith believes O'Brien would not have had time to deliver the fish. Get the car washed Hiccup Taufa drive him to his death. Return the car to Joey Giacolone and get back to teamsters local two ninety nine by four thirty when witnesses say they saw him there for forty four years. The conventional wisdom really unquestioned in the public mind and repeated in book after Book and movie after movie movie and an article. After article is that Chucky did the suspect thing now. Of course chucky has for forty four years trying to deny it he alone among suspects talk. Talk to the FBI twice. He's trying to clear his name through going on television and denying it. He's tried everything he could and he wasn't able to and as I think I show in the book He he wasn't involved in the office parents and more important than the FBI doesn't believe that he is. They have reasons to think good reason to think he didn't do it. And that someone else was involved. But this great misconception persists unfortunately for him. No charges have been brought against anyone in Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance But one question has continued to prompt. FBI searches and conspiracy theories for over forty years. Where is the body? And that's the sound of Detroit's original steak steak and cheese being prepared freshly grilled for you warm. Your cell phone with a fresh grilled tubby steak and cheese sub today tasting is believing leaving tubbies Detroit original steak and cheese since nineteen sixty toppy says everything you need to make your party. Amazing Tubby sub shops offers catering packages for your office parties. Birthday parties special events. Enjoy Monster. Party subs party platters salads wings. Thanks just bake gourmet cupcakes. A whole lot more let tubbies cater your next party so you can have more fun. Visit TUBBIES DOT com for all the details in May of two thousand four. Police pulled up floorboards in northwest Detroit. Freud home but we did not uncover any evidence relevant to the investigation on James Hoffa in twenty twelve lease dug up backyard in Roseville. Say it has no credibility at all in twenty thirteen acting on a tip from our boss. Tony's really the FBI Doug on a forum on you'll road in Oakland Township all day long. The HOOPLA grew and grew once word spread. The date for Hoffa's remains had begun this again coming up empty. Why have there been so many seemingly credible tips? Scott Bernstein says it's because the Jack Aloni pros there's launched a campaign of misinformation to cover up the perfect crime so I believe the Jack Loney brothers were incredibly proud and they really war the fact that they pull this crime of the century off so successfully they really ward as a badge of honor and they really got their kicks out of tweaking people about it and you know my research tells me that. They launched a disinformation Asian campaign. From nine hundred seventy five and into the two thousands when they both passed away where they would you know intentionally tell thirty people thirty thirty different things and both billion. Tony knew that they were. They were tweaking they were they were gas lighting eighteen. Let's focus on three possibilities number one Scott Bernstein and Keith Corbett former assistant. US Attorney have come to the same conclusion. Okay rhenium Traumat- Hamtramck is widely known for police bakeries. But that's not why we're here. Today does not not much to see here now but this used to be eight. Two one five Moran in Nineteen Seventy Five. It was a model trash company. It was called central sanitation. It was owned by two Detroit mob lieutenants Peter Fatality and Jimmy Clause Rhino and they had these gigantic compresses for cardboard where they compress impress. Three four five tons of parboil at one time in shredded down to little pieces of paper and people were not thinking in one thousand nine hundred seventy five of DNA EH so full body in there. Just get crushed up in into pricing. A couple of months after half disappeared the place burning down. What a coincidence coincidence and you know the people in the insurance policy paid off you know and Everybody was happy then will dare has done his own research and says there's no way. The body was disposed of its central sanitation. Essential Sanitation was dismissed by the FBI in a Nineteen seventy eight in a very open statement. Where the FBI said this is not what we believe? We check this out and we have completely rejected. The central sanitation theory possibility number two a new character enters the story. A small time on criminal named Donovan Wells who died this past year in two thousand six and FBI search focused on a farm in Milford Michigan once owned by Union Leader and Hoffa enemy rolling McMaster Donovan Wells and his wife lived on that farm. Back in nineteen seventy five on the day of the murder Don Wells wife Ana. She's at the farmhouse. She's in the kitchen and she's washing dishes looking out towards Pontiac Jack Trail and she sees two cars come streaming out pontiac trail make a hard right into this dirt road into through this dirt road which goes all the way into the back of the farm and don well sold the FBI at the back of the farmer. These guys was a pre dug hole redouble so Monica Wells sees McMaster and she tells him a story talk about cheese. It was a strange thing. These cars came roaring up at McMaster. He said he basically threatened her. You know blondes. Who talked to you? Brush don't get old. You know so. He made some crack of it at one time. Donovan Wells was represented by a lawyer named named Jim Ellesmere. He says wells told him a similar story on July thirtieth nineteen seventy five in that farmhouse kitchen with his wife. Donovan Wells was convinced he saw Jimmy Hoffa's body getting buried. He observes out the kitchen window of mcmasters farmhouse. A Eh Beckel digging and then awaits sheet and Abbadi dropped into the whole. I believe that Hoffa was murdered on that. I think the cars roaring up. I think that was those were the death was those were the death. Awful is one of those cars and he was murdered the F. B. I.. Dug Up that farm and found nothing but Dan Mold Daya throws an interesting wrinkle into that episode. He says Donovan in Welsh showed him a diagram of the farm with the exact location of that whole worry claim to have seen someone dump a body a diagram the FBI used to pick their spot for the two thousand six excavation. And I'm looking at. I'm looking at Dan's diagram. The Got South in North Mixed up the barn was over here. They dug the averted the they adverted the NAP. The diagram that dod had dropped for them didn't bring him up from lexicon and they dug in the wrong place. Does that mean HOFFA's body might be buried on that farm and Milford Modena's says he now believes the body was is there originally but that it was then taken to a landfill in New Jersey operated by a guy named film of Scotto Mascot was a soldier in the East Coast Genovese crime family and he told Dan Moday about a day in nineteen seventy five when his friend Hitman. SALGA LEO holed up in a truck doc. And I'm sitting with till on his front porch. Got The tape recorder on. And so he tells me on tape that the gateway truck pulls up at his thumb and he and sal ago the fifty five gallon. Drums and Burien tells me that I was ready to what he says is ready to shut the to Australia to take taper her like like a football and put it under my arm my car and get out of there before this guy realized what it said to me and so I got to know Phil I got to know film Escada now. He gave me information with the frequency of a kosher butcher handing out pork sausages. But he gave me some stuff he told me he don't Jackal Oni basic as. He was driving the car. He told me Tony Provenzano. Yeah was a Detroit that day and he was close to Tony Pro now. There's a new twist follow along with me. Dan says he has been working with Frank Kapulua. He's the son of Paul Kepala. who was a business partner of film of Scotto? He's also working with film. Scotto son Phil Junior both frank and Phil Junior say their fathers others before they died told the sons the exact location where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. It's not clear why they've waited years to announce this but they've convinced lintz Daniel Day on his remains will be in at the bottom of that drum. And I've told all my sources whether it's feel junior or frank I I said no one gets any money until this is proven to be that there's a body there and that the testing the the biased by federal law enforcement authorities says that this is the one and only Jimmy Hoffa at that point you guys deserve the moon and the stars you guys deserve all the money you get all the reward money and I don't want any of it I just WanNa be the guy who has that that story. That's all I want. I want to be there at the dente Ma of this case and I wanted to be able to take a bow on this. I am unabashed about this. I deserve at this moment. There is no justice in this world. If I don't get this moment the FBI and a lot of other people remain sceptical. As of now there are no digs plan at that site and yes there are other theories. Okay we're on Jefferson Avenue in downtown tone Detroit. We're in front of the Renaissance Center of the Ranson. deathly looks a lot different than it did. Back in the summer of nineteen seventy five. The towers of this enormous complex now includes hotel and General Motors World Headquarters but in nineteen seventy five. It was brand new. It was under construction. And that's very important. There are people who will insist that Jimmy Hoffa was buried that summer underneath the rinsing the guy who sells the story the hardest that Jimmy Hoffa's office buried here is Marvin. The Weasel Elkin. Marvin was Jimmy. HOFFA's driver for five years Marvin says in the summer of nineteen seventy six. There was a convention downtown of teamsters. He was in the entourage of Tony. Jack Aloni he was there at this convention to light cigars and get drinks for all the big bosses. He says they're walking down here along Jefferson Avenue and Tony Jack Aloni stops and turns to the entourage voice. Say Good morning to Mr Hoffa. There's no question in my mind. Never has been exactly where he is. Will we ever know the answers or does the FBI already know the answers but won't share. We reached out to them. But we're told the bureau doesn't come on open. Cases is there anybody still around who could have pertinent information maverick. Many people bought the colonial gone. tacos Guy the people in New Jersey. A gun now. There may be some peripheral figures. All the main players have passed since So it's time time for the FBI to release all the funds well One of the problems with that and I understand the public's desire to know what's going on the Detroit right free press fought a ten year legal battle over. FBI files soft through the freedom of information. ACT The free press sued the government twice and finally finally the FBI was forced to release thousands of pages of Hoffa documents but many were so heavily redacted as to render them useless should should the FBI released the remaining hoffa files. The answer is yes. Or No depending upon who you talk to if you can't indict somebody and convict them you really shouldn't throw names out of the press and despite what we may see in politics today The US Attorney's office in the government should only speak when the hasn't indictment to bring against somebody and then let the jury resolve it. We'd never been in a position to indict. Anybody can actually hoffa disappearance so if the sealed files protect some group or individuals. I asked Dan will. Dr Who are we protecting your answer is i. Don't know which brings us to the final page of the Hoffer Story. This is the place in a novel. where a good Ryder ties up loose ends answers unresolved questions that have nagged at the reader for three hundred pages? But this isn't a crime novel and the Real World Rarely fits into a nice neat package for over one hundred years. Mafia crime has been shrouded in mystery and conspiracy. We get threads of information and that leads us down intriguing tunnel. Stephen Moore on answered questions Hoffa cases. No different which is why forty five years later and maybe for the next forty five years. Investigators will keep digging. Thanks for joining us us through this season of shattered. If you WANNA support our show please tell your friends. You can also leave us a review on apple podcasts. And if you want even more I shattered. You should consider joining shattered plus for just twenty five dollars a year. You get a bonus episode with each regular episode and also access access to the show without ads. Your support helps us. Keep making more seasons of shattered on episode five. Plus we interview a legendary teamster dissident. Ken PAFF has been working to reform. The teamsters since nineteen seventy six. He's the national organizer of teamsters for a the Democratic Union. The par of organized crime in this country is down when you're in New York City you don't have Italian mobsters running the show you got Wall Street. You got the banking industry. You got the oil corporations. They're running the show to hear that interview and a lot of other great material sign up for shattered. Plus today the go-to shattered podcast. Dot Com for more information. I'm Steve Garage. Sola shattered is produced an edited by. Zach Rosen and Jeremy Allen we want to thank all of the experts journalists and scholars. Who helped us tell the half the story Dan Monday? Scott Bernstein Heath Corbin Jack Jack Goldsmith Robert Blakey gymnasts merrick masters Elizabeth Foul Nelson Lichtenstein. David Whitmore and Marvin even the Weasel Elkin Marvin mostly because I just like saying Marvin the weasel. Oh and by the way if you should solve the Hoffa case can you let us know Auden. I sure love to know how this story ends

Josephine Hoffa Detroit Jimmy Hoffa Zano FBI Tony Only Provenzano Hoffa Uncle Tony teamsters union HOFFA Jack Aloni Red Fox Tony Jack Tony Jack Jack Aloni Jack Loney US Attorney murder New Jersey Tony Pro Dan Jack Goldsmith
MI World  Episode 5

PodcastDetroit.com

1:30:08 hr | 1 year ago

MI World Episode 5

"You're listening to the PODCAST DETROIT visit. WWW DOT odd tested troy dot com for information. Well hello everybody We are back on my world. We have a long-awaited meeting three in my one of my favorite money here One one sitting next to me here somebody that I met a few years back in a decade ago. I I know I can't believe it's time's flown by every time we meet. It's always for a very interesting very controversial reason. It's always my favorite But next to me here I have Scott Bernstein. He is the author of books. I spent a lot of time dedicating his life to researching and connecting the dots and understanding very well. You know the the backstory of The Purple Gang. I mean any crime story you can really think of that. I know has made has made any kind of history. I think Scott's done a pretty good job understanding what what happened and how to connect it so I take pride in being considered one of the leading experts on mob activity organized crime in America and try to spread spread the knowledge as much as I can because knowledge is power and I think that It's it's a part of history. It's it's a part of American history in every city you go in Date they had their own little slice of of under history that that is historically significant. I'm from Detroit. So Detroit was you know kind of Ground Zero for me and my started off as my bread and butter and obviously purple gang. Jimmy Hoffa Are Too you're a big girl. Cornerstones of of my research. Resume and then I've been lucky enough to be able to expand the last Let's say five five six years. I'm expanded into Philadelphia. Chicago in New England will yes. You have and I mean I watch you. I mean. Obviously you're busy Z.. Not Easy to get a hold of these days. Because you're you're you're back the same day you called me. You did. Try To make a twenty four hour rule you you did. I just thought I was special. You are We'll thank you and it's it's an honor to have monash show. I've you know. Oh been a fan of his work and his research for many many years and You know alongside we you know. Have Somebody on line right now who is also spent a lot of time. He has more first hand experience and I do use trial by error. I was sitting in. Libraries varies Researching the stuff that he was actually out there doing. Yeah he He used you've done your time in Literally and figuratively literally and figuratively figuratively Allen on an Allen. Gunnar Lind Bloom is somebody who He has also an author and you know spent a lot of time understanding standing. I mean he's clearly comes from the background. I don't know much to tell you what I'm GonNa let him tell you himself because he's pretty good at that too allen are you on. Whoa yes thank you for having me and I appreciate and We'll go on. Record was sky very humble guy he To anybody don't let me tell you differently. He is the best in the game. Now he has mentors that he's looked up to for a long time but I believe in my opinion he's approaching or passing passing them in so thank sale. All the we're we're the next generation all the things we are Christians involved to out and in in that group but you are Any successes that you are heading towards her have or having is hard work. Incredible hard work that you put in for the last you you know decade or more. So you know you're going to be so humble man you're the best guy things bro and the call the call callback thing Scott. We talk all all the time and he told me about the callback rules. Your your value to somebody is based on the amount of time this takes call back back so if somebody hasn't call you back in every once in a while call me now forget and I call them back. Oh my God I never feel like the wrong or if anybody who understands people's busy schedules. It's me sometimes. I'll put my phone down for an hour and I'll pick it up. I'll have twenty five minutes calls thirty mistakes and on the other line is well not not to you know last but certainly not least we have Christian ship leany On the other line as well here who Alongside Scott has won Mob Bloggers of the year of the mob museum In Vegas and it has spent a Lotta time doing his research and connecting the dots. It's really more so a passion for Christian I see and I follow him every single day. I'd love what he puts out. There is a very positive individual and I love your work in the fashion sense to. Its you got a lot to offer Christian and also an author of how many books doc soon Christian I Well okay. I have three books but I I have to say these other guys on their on. You guys are far more humble than me. I'll admit I'm probably the antithesis of the humble of self deprecating humor it is tongue in cheek and you guys know Oh meet so anyway Three books and yeah actually take Scott I'll just say this since we're kissing everybody's ass raid. Great House was actually one of my I mentor is one of the first people I reached out to when I was writing a diary of a motor city Hitman so so does Allen approach me and which we still gotTa Talk Man? We'll do that off You know off the this show the way on that project. Yeah I know I know man. Oh that's been on hold. We'll talk about that. That's that's been like in limbo it's still going but just in limbo for like two years so we'll get anyway my life cronyn right. I know HOFFA HOFFA project in in La in limbo and different stages of development for three years. And it's like every time it looks like it's about to get off the ground it doesn't and so I can really uh-huh oh yeah you know what actually since you brought that up. I talked to you too about the La thing in the other thing. I got some Intel. But it's all the secrets shit. We're talking about right now. Well you know. Obviously the reason why we're getting together Not The main reason obviously asleep but the the thing that kind of brought it to this point as the other secret that has been going on for forty four years and And let's talk about it now because sees a very influential man and Is still to this day. One of the biggest mysteries in American history Jimmy James Riddle Hoffa disappeared on July thirtieth nineteen seventy five and was declared dead in one thousand nine hundred eighty two disappeared from my restaurant parking lot in Bloomfield Township Michigan. That's correct well is it. Correct disappeared from the the Red Fox. Parking Lot on the corner of Telegraph and Maple last place that he was seen It now is a location. Shen for the Andy Ammo restaurant chain. which is I believe? The biggest Italian restaurant chain in Michigan actually has some connections to the way way crime family to the same people that were central in the in the conspiracy to kidnap and murder To Be Hoffa the some of the people that own on on the AMMO are married to the daughters of some of the people that were involved. Yes I I mean the the history goes down. I don't think most people like talking about it too much because nobody wants to get. I love the irony though that the that the people behind the HOFFA conspiracy. We're also I guess. Marginally tangentially involved in the decision to put on the AMMO at the same location. That hoffer had disappeared from is coincidence. I don't know maybe it's like them planting the flag of some sort. I don't know it could be spent my whole life by uh-huh degree of irony. I WANNA bring up with on that note if you think. I don't know if we should even talk about it. But the thing in Vegas that's connected to on the ammos in your life your friend and so if you think about all the how it's all tied together Kaz off. I was involved the teamster pension with the yes loaning money to build casinos xenos kind of full circle so one of the things donors referencing. We're GONNA try to dance around this issue without getting without getting ourselves season desist assist letters. So Andy Ammo has a Outpost if you will or a a location in Las Vegas that's Downtown Las Vegas in the De Casino. Which is the Detroit theme Casino? They sure do and It's the only on demo. It's the only on the outside of the Michigan and I know that the casino takes pride in bringing kind of Detroit. A brand names to Vegas. They have an American coney island Dave other. It's about time. Yeah Tako out in Vegas gambling and you want a good Italian meal Go in and see the guys and you can get a little taste of of the Detroit mob and Jimmy Hoffa offer. It's in their good. It's frigging delicious announcer. Jimmy Hoffa was pretty much personally responsible for giving the the teamsters loans that built the Las Vegas Skyline so well and that's another that's another thing that Kinda lead up to some the upset the protection of of that entity or the wanting you know the the tug of war over who was to control the purse strings of that pension fund. which was you know? Hundreds of millions of dollars that were being given out in low interest or no interest loans to to pretty much any wise guy that applied would get we get the rights. Not just bill casinos but to open up. Businesses around the country with these these with these teamster pension loans and control control over that pension fund was very important. It was the golden goose that was leading the golden eggs and the mob wanted. Jimmy Hoffa Away from the control of the pension fund Jimmy Hoffa wanted to reclaim his position at the forefront of Control that pension fund and then he vanished definitely put a target on his back. Doesn't it it did the I think the movie that Irishmen went wrong to me in my opinion is that they had their theory of Holland. Why is disappearance? But but I don't think they address. I haven't seen the movie so I'll be honest but I read the book some of that book and it and they didn't address back down like families like Detroit right and other families in wise guys who had built these casinos and business oliver country. They had a lot at stake in hop on. Was Lord it over them on the knowledge of in cahoots and with all the way to the president and so when he started saying I wanNA come back in power. I wanted to control this money. I wanted Josh and making sock. Threats gotten more than me I. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say they were saw threats. Say they were pretty hard. Threats going on going on national television going on sixty minutes minutes and saying that he was going to You know cleanse the the the Union of mob influence in the irony being that he opened the door to all that mob once or or a lot of it at least so right. That weren't soft threats at me but whatever. So you have families like Detroit who had a lot in Stake in the game but in this movie that Irishman. It's like they don't even acknowledge that how much they had in the game and other people too it was just one little theory they worked with Iran with. It made a movie out of it but they this new movie. The movie definitely deals with control of the pension fund and HOFFA's desire to get back in the teamsters union. But I think we're GONNA see the point Garner trying to make which is very valid. Is that do you know the Detroit. The city of Detroit whether we're talking about the mafia or just you know the fact that Hoffa lived in Detroit Detroit for his whole life and and built the teamsters union to the to the Monolithic Heights. He did from his base at local to ninety nine Down in southwest Detroit at the corner of In Michigan and Trumbull. Right by the BALLPARK. You know that completely gets I really WanNa see marginalized because that's almost an understatement. I mean it just doesn't exist. The city of Detroit doesn't exist. The Detroit mob doesn't really exist So I think that was a pretty giant misstep in the telling of that story and it's upsetting setting because it's four of our beloved most favorite actors. Yes you wanted better for our move your three hour and forty five minute movie in literally literally I think less than three minutes of take place in Detroit and I. I've said this a couple of times. I mean interviews for the sake of that film for the narrative that that film John was was telling Jimmy Hoffa might as well lived in Honolulu. I mean really. Historically store cly Biographical ethical films. Well any guys who know me know I always go on my soapbox about that I get it with Hollywood in creative license. They need they feel. They need to take Based on their marketing algorithms but ultimately I think for the most part. I don't know if you guys agree but we have yet to see a truly biographical picture that has satisfied any of us to. I don't know to a large extent. I don't know I've not seen you guys. I mean even this one. There was stuff that was good about it and to Alan. What you said? Yeah they actually league did address the reason I guess that that Hoffa was such a threat with the the money Nancy what you had said about out coincidence L.. Also throw this in there in the underworld. I've found nothing is a coincidence. Isn't it's a strange Kim. But and that was my writing saying that obviously we know right right until the audience don't believe me. Nothing is coincidental in the underworld. I never has been but as with with that movie. Yeah they did address at least that part of it because a lot of people really don't understand why Hoffa was the target And they did. But you're right about the Detroit thing and there was so much on to try to go on a tangent but Detroit nineteen eighteen. Seventy five was in my opinion. The most unusual dynamic of of underworld activity. I need from the talk. Politics down to the low level drug dealers. It was the most corrupt crazy city ever. It's the most fascinating in the way it all. Aw Wide Open right in there. I mean I don't know what do you guys I think the movie I think the movie also hold on one second. I apologize for for me. I was just going to say that I think that one of the issues I had as well was they. Yes they addressed dressed. The issue about the Pension Fund and control the Pension Fund in. HOFFA's insistence on coming back into a union that he wasn't welcomed and back into from the mob. Now he was definitely would have been welcomed back by the rank and file which is which was the big worry that if he reached the nineteen seventy six election. Listen for the teamsters presidency. He won a landslide. So the rank and file wanted him back but the mob controlled. The Union. DidN'T WANNA back but I thought one of the biggest issues issues in terms of the the real story compared to the story the Hollywood was telling you in that film. They really sanitized Hoffa in a Lotta ways where they made. It seem like the character in some of the dialogue was like Or Frank Fitzsimmons. People know Franquet Simmons was the guy that replaced placed. Hoffa was one of HOFFA's Proteges and it was his vice president and when Hoffa had to relinquish the teamsters presence in order to get out of prisoner via presidential essential pardon he turned the union over to Frank Fitzsimmons thinking that Fitzsimmons was just got to keep the seat warm and then he would retake the presence he when he came out of prison The mob preferred fitzsimmons in that Position Than Hoffa because he was much more malleable and easier to manipulate and did what he was told but there were some of these. There was some of the dialogue and Christian. You might remember this where Hoffa's complain all fricks Fitzsimmons. Because you know he'll he'll let any mobster into the union and he'll just give any mobster that wanted a teamsters loan and it's like well Jimmy. You've been doing that for the previous twenty ears. So this notion that he was kind of this man of the people that was getting a raw deal by the mafia is again a little bit revisionist history on because I hated himself painting him as a victim. Almost yeah no I what I'm saying. Regard the fact that Eh. This huge hand that Detroit had in the game or dog in the fight and just today with a lot of people. Don't know Scott knows for sure Kristen. I'M SHERRY TO TWO DETROIT head floor casinos in Vegas and they beds. Try to track down where the money came from. They juggled amounts of money from loans and family. The bottom line is it was teamster money and so the end of the day in another thing is this. Is this where I kind of had my grandfather in Myanmar uncle Sales Pete Toko. They've told me things like when it came time to to get the president to run for election. They needed to obviously see they needed to teamsters need. Uaw they needed a soul there. There's a there's a can't remember where I heard the tape. Where where the president is telling it? They never told As part of the IT's part of the water part of the Watergate tapes right right and he said they stay in regards to getting those unions behind him in the Mid West They said on tape there. They want a million bucks. President says what's the problem million bucks briefcase and give it to them now. They never determined who that was. Everybody assumed that was yes. It was Detroit because control over the UAW and Hoffa. Why was all the teaser? I think the money was to the money was to buy the commutation for that too so yes but in the long run you get connotation I think he gets The teamsters back behind you know what I'm saying. They didn't Hoffer in charge of the teamsters but he had a lot of influence. Still with the Union that anyway. There's a moral moral story is. There's a huge factor in these casinos. Were Built Vegas. But teamster money in Tony's Ereli ends ends up in prison for this and and in the movie whole operation was sorry. Look the reason why I'm saying all this because if you ask the average person in America regard they don't even know like based on that movie. How big of a hand Detroit had in this whole this whole thing? It's the reason why he was killed. UH IN DETROIT. Is the reason why it was kidnapped and killed on. 'CAUSE IT happened. There was the man in the movie. You get people from Philadelphia in Jersey New York all over the country. They're like Detroit Detroit with anything. That's kind of like they didn't even. They didn't even tell us when the movie that he lived in Detroit. You're just supposed to assume it because they're kidnapping them and killing Gillingham in Detroit. But they don't you wouldn't know you had no had no knowledge of Jimmy Hoffa was. You wouldn't even know. He was from Detroit right. Interestingly what one thing I did I'd like about the film is that they would do a little pop up video kind of things until you like what happened is so and so why didn't they do that. Basically like here Detroit Roy Place. The only character that was from Detroit was the twenty Jack Aloni character and it was really just You WanNa talk about Gideon Gideon history wrong well not just brief beginning history just completely backwards. They presented the Tony. Jack Aloni character as some type of clown around some type of lackey for Tony Provenzano. That was some type of arriver bodyguard for Provenzano and in reality. Tony Jack Loney was the one that was calling all the shots. For the entire Hoffa murder conspiracy was being quarterbacked by Tony. Billy Jack Aloni and really Tony. Provenzano had played a very minor role in the In the GIA in the HOFFA murder conspiracy because of there's kind of this east coast bias towards all Mafia reporting He gets interjected acted as a bigger role in it. Yeah yeah his beef with Hoffa is what Led to the sit down. Rafa was kidnapped and murdered. But they really use Tony Provenzano as a way to lure Hoffa out in the open to kill him the beef between Hoffa and Provenzano while it was very real and very bitter was not the reason that Hoffa was murdered. It's where do you guys. I think they're sources though we're worried the where do you think they got the story from the story from the book houses and and if the book is off then we'll the book the book is the they have. There's been a pretty significant backlash in the last six weeks From major media outlets that are writing a ton on of stuff about how the entire movie and the book that the movie is based on is all fiction. That's stint at night with it is agent. Ital- him I. I can't get the book published unless you say you kill awful. I can't speak to what Frank Wyman told Charlie and and and Frank Shearman Sharon but Frank Wyman is my agent and I can tell you that the what I know for sure is that that book was out for for sale on two separate occasions Once with another author and I can't think of that author's name and it didn't sell and then they brought Charlie Brandt. I'm the project WHO's the author the book and was Frank. Sharon's agent or sorry me back offers They brought Charlie brand of the product. He was frank. Sharon's lawyer The agent was Frank Wyman. Who's actually my agent? And I know they went out again with the book with Charlie Brandt as the author. They couldn't sell it so it went went out twice for market. Couldn't sell and then there was some type of meeting of the minds And they went out a third time with the book this time. The third proposal. Zell's said that shearing killed Hoffa and they sold it. They didn't sell to a big publisher this so to us a a small publishing company. I think the advance was like twenty thousand dollars. Which is a pretty small advance if you're you're publishing on regular basis and You know they're the ones that are having a laugh though. I mean the book became a New York Times bestseller earlier That book will be selling for the next one hundred years It will be on shelves and and being being printed for you know decades. They'RE GONNA be making money off this thing for decades. Charlie Brandt and frank had probably walked away with a couple of million already just based on this book being turned into a film so and I don't begrudge them that's the dream that every and they're living the dream and and and I say more power to you even though they're the dream the dream is based on some huge lies and falsehoods. But you know it's everyone's dream to get a book that that hits that level of success success in reaches that kind of what I call the pop culture sweet spot and The data they definitely did it. Well Daddy Dad Dance Scott thank you. That was your Asian. Yeah like I'm not going to discredit anything. Well done. I mean frank. Franks they had to do. Interviews has the stamp behind the book so whether or not he actually believes that are not I don't know but it's his book and Frank. Sharon's not alive anymore. So Charlie Brown's not doing interviews that again. I have a lot of respect for Charlie even though I I strongly disagree with what he's written. I have respect for him as a as an author as an attorney and I definitely respect the fact that he's had this much success with that book. What I don't respect is the fact that he won't do interviews? He's refusing all meteorologists. Because he no well why why do you think I so you think about it. Because he knows that he's GonNa have to sit there and defend ally Burger right so he just did it right. So He's sledding De Niro and Scorsese and agent Frank Wineman half the go out there and take all the bullets. And he's refusing to interviews. which I think is weak? I agree agree. That is I mean. If you're if you're GONNA put something out there we'll stand by it. Wouldn't it feel better to know that it was at least factual standby i. I don't know that's that's just me. What he what he leans on the FBI and they knew what what he leans on an would he what what he uses his kind of canned response to you know y you believe what Sharon told told you is that he says that He was a prosecutor And that he was an expert at Being able to Interrogate and debrief Criminals and through that Experience he was able to decipher decipher what you know who was lying. And who wasn't and that. He says to his experience through his. You know his resume. Hey of of of vetting bad guys that That that that Sharon pass muster with him. So that's that's that's that's what He. That's that's that's the company line coming from from the Charlie Brown camp. Well I mean I would've loved to seem you guys direct this movie. I feel like it would have been a much different. Give me to give us two hundred million dollars you make it better. I'm men make movies great again. Well he used to think my biggest issue is something like this and it's different. These are true to true crime writers. Right here to the best in the business Scott and Kristen. I'm a fiction novelist. I mean I do writes in to cram by my life but I'm a storyteller so I'm I'm about great stories. Big Big stories big characters very complex plots and I look at this book that they base this on on like a lot of bull crap and I'm like for two hundred million dollars. This is what you come up with with this all star cast and source. He's kind to me. It's like a kick in the nuts to me the fact that I have novels out that people are saying this is good of the Godfather. Maybe Better Magin. If they just took a quarter of them maybe better add some good acts it better. Maybe I'm just saying you say excuse to fill and I'm just saying if if you know if they're gonNA take in my I novel and created a fifty million dollar budget wouldn't use some younger actors aren't going to be so expensive and A good director. That's got talent in made a really. Hey good take a really good story and make a a generational epic Makia story that people remember in thirty years. To only reason people are gonNA remember this 'cause it's controversal controversal and because the all star cast they won't remember it because it was a great story. They're not going to be thinking about it for months and it was awesome story. I was in theatres like mostly attach. The characters are whenever. This won't happen with this movie so to me. No income Hollywood holly. I think all three of US know because I mean Alan. They haven't come to you yet. and they may have I know they've Scott and I have danced this dance with a book options in Hollywood and it's almost like if it does happen man you you have to bite the bullet tests as much as I hate to say. Hey that'd be like. Hey gimme big fat check because I know you guys are GonNa mangled and how many percentage you think of options that get put on books actually get turned into films. I mean I know the fibers right very slim so even if you reach the point where someone's coming to put an option on your book it even if it's a major name whether it be a studio or a director or writer or an actor they want still. I would say unlikely that it will actually actually hit the silver screen right. We I dealt with that I exactly I know and then I learned the hard way how this whole business works works in and I guess what I'm saying is you're you almost as an author or a researcher of fiction writer. Nonfiction doesn't matter you're so relieved Steve if something actually gets green lighted ten years after it's been optioned because most of it gets shelved or the option expires. And you're sitting there like you know w Irishman was a ten ten. The Irish men was heard. You paint houses which is with Irishman is is based on the book we were just talking about you know that option got put on thinking Oh five zero six twelve thirteen years. I've been waiting for this music for a song I know with me I I try a lot of people are always asking me. What are they gonNA make a movie? I'm like my God could be ten and years from now. You know what I mean. It's just part of the game right. That's dialyse reality for the actor. I don't know much. She fancies fantasy such an for so many bad. Made in in in every once in a while you'll find a book or good good story at a rare. Why aren't they making this Instead they make sequels to Comic books in another fast and furious and they put a hundred million because they're scared that listen they know what sells what's going to make your money. It's a business modern business model. They know if they spent two two hundred million dollars on a fast and furious. They're gonNA make back eight hundred million dollars if they spend. I'm kind of getting hip to this over the last couple of years about budgets. And because I've been doing workout in Hollywood you know for a for adult themed. Dramas that are geared towards people that are interested in in great stories stories. Great plots great dialogue. You you're lucky if you get a twenty million dollar budget so I mean Alan. I hope to God down eventually reaches the point where they're they're playing with his novels and they wanNA adapt them into into film or television but even something like that. I mean he's talking about fifty million dollars but I don't I think they would ever. I mean I was involved in the white boy rick Film and they had a thirty five to forty million dollar budget and everyone was going like you don't know how rare this is to have this size of a budget for this kind of a movie and it was a giant disaster and they didn't and and it actually proved a lot of people's points that you shouldn't make those kind of movies because that forty million dollars thirty five million dollars only had twenty twenty five million dollar return now all the movies that were railing against and I can appreciate I call them popcorn movies. I can appreciate them for what they are The marvel films and and the Star Wars and all the franchise films and the the built in a brand recognition. But they you know it's a science I mean they know if they spent one hundred million they can spend two hundred million two hundred million on these movies and they're making their money tenfold. Not It's easier no one. It's it's already happened and you've seen what happens. If seen they've Sunday they've done the they've crunched the numbers they you know the analytics metrics they know with certain these certain brands. And it's crazy sometimes. You know these Marlin movies will come out. They'll have one hundred and fifty million dollar budget or two hundred and the only make three hundred. You know double their their return. They'll have a double on the return and they'll look at that and be well. That's not very good because all their other movies have a quadruple return rock when trouble return. Hey here's the lesson chances well let me make the mob connection here. Everything is about money. Like Scotts at Hollywood knows what makes money money. The mob knows what makes money and that's all that mattered hence why Hoffa was killed reason. Something gets made in Hollywood. Because it's it's not about beating people up it's not about killing people. It's about making money and if something interferes with that then you take action. So in Hollywood. The waves sway all their enemies but That's my that's my lesson for the boys and girls today and you know what at the end of the day for for this project. The Irishman I. I don't think making money was really an objective of theirs. I think I think that this was a prestige this lead through the boss theater when you say a loss leader basically just trying eh people in the netflix subscriptions. And that's why they made the movie why I think two hundred million dollars at box officer back or not. They didn't care. They WanNa pee subscribed Austin movie and then go wait what other. Let's let go. They stay with it. I think that's part of it but I don't think that's the whole thing. I mean I think a lot of it his simply prestige and they they view that the two hundred million dollars they spent was so there would be the spectacle that was and and that is. I mean they've gotten thirty million is on this. They got thirty million is on this thing in the first week. I mean that's insane. If there had been a box office that a two hundred million would have been a five hundred million return on the first weekend. Especially we're talking baking company. Uh I don't think I I. I have a hard time believing. I'm not saying that. That's not what their same heart. Who who do you know the at this point in time? It doesn't have a netflix subscription. I don't know anybody. Okay well you live out in the out in the wilderness literally in the ozarks litter. I'm just saying you. You know I mean the ninety nine percent of the world right now that they're they're living by a mid level income. I'm not talking about lower middle but ooh everyone has a netflix subscription. I don't I don't feel like this this particularly got them a ton of Saab's maybe I'm wrong but I don't think there was a tawny people that were like. I gotTA sign up for Netflix to watch this. I build some people who actually I remember seeing these post Irishman on the pages and stuff and somebody's like man. Ah I'm going to sign up so I can get it and watch it get like a one month free subscription now saying that those people didn't have more people that you realize that don't have net flex and this actually baited that men. I'm not saying that the sole reason but I'm saying I think they got a lot of subscribers want your in watching ozarks narcos and all these other great shows at the is on Alexa six or whatever and they're like Oh. This is cool. What's what is it twelve bucks a month? Now he's like he's fifteen but they've opted when then you watch they wanNA THEY THEY WANNA win Oscar. They want to win. Oscars this movie. I'm telling you is going to win the Oscar. So that's all that Netflix really cares about everyday and just end this thing real. Aw this thing. Really hit struck a chord and resonated with the country if not the world We can sit here and we can knock it for veracity. I didn't think it was a particularly great movie. I thought it was good Christian said I thought in parts parts of it were very good. I don't think it is an all time classic in any regard. I don't think it's an all time score. Says he classic in any regard but I mean this was a grand slam win for them. I mean everybody buddy was talking about this movie for you know the second it will it. Will it came into theaters at a limited release. I think November first and then it hit it hit Netflix on November twenty seventh and ever since it hitting athletics on November twenty seven. I mean it's been on the forefront of conversation everywhere yes it has but then you get lucky. It's it's a conversation and then you have those actors and then what you get is a bunch of people that are going to be curious curious enough to watch and also whether they also just to be clear after the two hundred million was of was was simple was pure vanity for score. Says he if he would have done this as a a traditional theater release he would have had it. Let's say a hundred million dollar budget and he would have to make the movie three hours. He wanted the tournament dollar budget to make the movie view. Four hours in the two hundred million dollar budget. One hundred million that two hundred went towards de aging technology so it wasn't even anything substantive substantive in terms of the script or or the set pieces or Special effects it was simply to take seventy five five year old Pacino Deniro and patchy and allow them to play thirty five year old Pacino. PECI Deniro now. Whether or not that. They pulled that off. We can sit there and debate it but that was again. It was a it was a it was a a lot of this vanity project for for score says he just wanting wanting to have that type of freedom and I guess if you're Martin Square says he and you're the greatest director that ever lived as some people consider him. I mean I know my favorite director. Maybe it's this is his right. Maybe you know he's done so much she deserves it. You can play with your money when you're scorsese so I guess at this point I mean we can talk about it all. We want me and I think that at the end of the day we kind of know that there is more truth than what we saw in the movie. There's is obviously you know some things that don't really match up and don't connect we'll start with the fact that Frank Sharon did not kill me off. Let's start with so what you saw in the movie in terms of. Here's what was true. In the movie. Frank Sharon was a teamster frank. Sheeran was A enforcer for certain mob bosses in Pennsylvania. Frank Sharon had met Jimmy Hoffa. That's here's a real version of the. Hey It's you know what it's Hollywood and there's really you know. What do we do at the end of the day except for P.? Disagree with it as much as anybody any other movie and awesome. FBI Right now that are doing when a project. I'm not sure what outlet. They're doing it for but it's a it's a written project that might eventually turn into something on the screen. But they've been in contact me and there are there are I think three or four. FBI agents right now that represent different or I should say the retired F. B. I.. Agents that represent different offices that have investigated mm the Hoffa case. And they're right now trying to find one murder that Frank Sheeran was tied to forget about Hoffa. They're trying to find any murder. Just want that Sheeran was tighter because they believe that frank shares never murdered anybody. Let Jimmy Hoffa. So he can sit there in the book and they can talk about. Oh I I heard you paint houses which for people that don't know is according to them as an expression of how a hit man identifies himself. I paint houses. Meaning they shoot someone in the head and his blood goes on the walls. I've also heard people say Both guys in the mob and guys in federal law enforcement and since that terminology has reached the masses from from the book seen. I've never I've never heard that before. I don't know where that came from. I'm I'M GONNA go ahead and say this is my first time here in the Christians Christian have you have you heard it on the line. I think this is a great time to put to hear your excellent theory on how this happened. And I don't know might theory theory similar to yours basically but since you're here in the art market probably wants to hear your theory too is I remember. Is that when I asked my grandfather years and years ago. Not that he knew knew anything or he did. What I'm saying is that he paled around with these guys? They're at our house all the time. Tony Jack Loney Jack Doco and we all lived in the same neighborhood and they spent a lot of time at our house and I remember a couple times asking him. These things into my teens in he'd always go for a walk. Just wants to go for a walk. Benchley Markle Sale Toko said you know we teach. Thank you for walk because the House might be bugged. Because all these guys come over here. Twenty Corrado and all these guys Tony Jacklin or at our house all the time so eventually I said What's up offer off in each games? Go for a walk. I said you know. What's the story behind author? And he says Listen Alonzo. This offer right. Were walking walking down the street. He says it's not something should ask about. When asked about it? Don't talk about it. He says just know that they're never gonNA find him and he says in if you knew. If you were to know anything's exact words he said you don't want to know the answer to that because the feds put you up. Put you in around July detector and you you know they ask you if you have any of course I would never know anything. I was only for two years old when it happened. But you know things can be passed along. He said you just don't want to have knowledge of that. Every the lie detectors Kisaburo in court anyway. But he said that you don't WanNa know just let it every single molly figure from Detroit that was called in to the FBI office from nine hundred seventy five until now the first thing they the first thing they ask them they shot they pour Pitra Jimmy often they say. Tell us what you know about this and and all your problems are a race for me have been asked I've been. I've got called in by the feds for different time and they. I think they did ask me. Do you have any knowledge of how power are you kidding. Me Man. I was for two years old. So what I'm saying is I do remember that conversation. I told you about Scott where my Grandpa was twenty Jack Loney and he he says I'm going downtown to see Jimmy. Tony Jacklin. He said I'm going to see Jimmy in practice. Awful kind of jokingly and he said Oh no offer you still downtown waiting for a ride. That's his exact words remembered stuck on my mind. So that's you know I don't I think he The cremation thing. Like your your theory on that or that. He was round up in the pig. Feed at Detroit Meat Packing Company. But what happened before that is exactly what I believe. Scott's theory is like right to the teak he could have been cremated he he never left Detroit in debt. You know so maybe it wasn't a black guy who said Scott got it. You guys are breaking up guys you guys there. Yeah yeah good question. Well I was just saying there's a black guy. Scott knows who he said he stumbled upon the murder of Jimmy Hoffa. I'm Mike Possible but Mike I don't know about it I don't know about his. I'm being plausible but Mike Yarbrough is a former corrections officer that claims that he Happened upon half of being buried at the Renaissance Center. His timeline has has changed over the last five years. which is one of the reasons that I kind of question his theory but I do believe leave that? He believes Very very intensely that he that he saw this Out of all of the insane theories that have zero plausibility. I would say the Renaissance Center theory has the most plausibility of the theories. That have no a possibility. The renaissance that guy called me everyday for like two months to go on Fox News. Charlie Landon to dumped. It's get my peace and I'm like man. I am not going on Fox News. Talk about offer with you. Know I don't know I don't I said Scott go to Scott. He did go to you. You know you basically told them your opinions and thoughts and which you should share now Scott. They'll go through the timeline and Christian coup. You know a lot of knowledge about this. What happened that day? Scott Jimmy Hoffa was picked up at the Red Fox at about two forty five yet loan. You broke up Tapia Alani. Yeah I'm I'll give you my theory so Tony Jack Loney and Tony Provenzano had allegedly agreed to have a sit down with Jimmy Hoffa regarding this beef with the teamsters and Hoffa needed to you get provenzano support in order to win the teamsters presidency in the seventy six election. He had been at odds with Provenzano. They one time and very close friends They'd had a falling out very bitter falling out. Were they were threatening to kill each other and each other's families but Hoffa realized that he had to make amends ends with Provenzano in order to take back the union. Jack Loney was the broker of this of the sit down Saddam was supposed to take place at two o'clock at the Marcus. Red Fox at Telegraph in Maple Hoffa showed up at two o'clock. He was a stickler for Being on time that's shown in the film that's true They made them wait for forty five minutes. He thought he'd been stood up. He had Went to the restaurant was in a parking lot that also housed a was the home of the shopping mall and and He went to a a a hardware store in the shopping mall called his wife told him that he had been Ditched if meeting and that was was going to grab some stakes at a a grocery store and come home and grilled steaks for dinner. That was at about two forty As a US walking back to his car he was intercepted by a group of mob figures are believed to have been The hit team. They were driving Tony. Jack Loney Son's son's car a nineteen seventy five mercury marquee owned by Joey. Jack Loney. Who was Tony Jacklin? At the time he was twenty three twenty four year old son And I believe that the people in that car were Billy Jack Loney. Who was Tony Jacklin? His younger brother and fellow Mafia Capo. Oh someone that was an incredible incredibly powerful presence in Detroit underworld as well as just like his brother. Someone whose reputation preceded him wherever he went across. The country had a lot of respect in other crime families. twenty pounds. All I believe is in the car. He was a young mob soldier at that time. Who represented the Downriver River Region in Detroit? He was a bodyguard and driver. For Peter Vitality Bazi vitality who was the godfather of Greektown who who was centrally involved in the conspiracy as the guy that was running interference with New York. Bazi vitality was keeping all the east coast mobsters abreast of what was happening in Detroit. So you had a representative from the Jackal only crew. Who Was Billy Jack? Loney had represented from the vitality crew. Who was twenty pounds? All and then I think NCUA representative from Tony Pros crew Salvatore Sally Bugs Giulio. I've lead those are the three people that picked Hoffa up At about two forty five at the in the parking lot of the Marcus Red Fox at that point I believe he was taken about a two or three minute drive north on telegraph to Long Lake Road where there was a house that was owned by. Carl Cada Carl. Lucado was the site. The brother-in-law of Jack and Tony Toko Jack Toko at that time was the acting boss of the Mafia one of the main conspirators and organizers of of Hoffa hit MOCATTA 's house. This was a frequent Sit Down Location for Tony Jack. Aloni discuss labor union business. HOFFA had been at House to meet Tony Jack Loney at least three times in the year. You're two leading up to this. So he felt comfortable going to the Lakota House. Especially if Billy Jack Loney was in that car saying Hey Jamie where we the Tony wants to be. Have this meeting in private. Doesn't WanNa be at a publication. We're going to move the meeting up to the Catis House up the street. I think he would feel comfortable going. There was only about a two the three minute drive. They got to the house. The houses was known throughout the Detroit underworld as the House on the hill because it was kind of lifted up on a hill and remove removed from from the main street and the L. elevated the garage was was secluded. I believe they drove him in the garage. Probably killed him either when he got out of the car in the garage right when he stepped into the house From the back door I believe that he was putting the trunk of that Mercury Gry Marquee and probably delivered to central sanitation which was owned by Bazi vitality and incinerated at the Central Sanitation Supplementation. Then burned down an arson fire in the year after disappeared before the FBI could get a search warrant genially. Wasn't it to the exact eight. Oh a year to the day that it happened disappeared. No no what you're referring to. The Carl Wakata died on the six year anniversary of Hoffa's murder at that same house almost to the minute at about three o'clock on July thirty ninety-one and Bazi tally who owns simple sanitation and it was twenty pounds boss was fouled by an FBI surveillance. Team I think seventy two hours after HOFFA disappeared. Abbasi vitality was was was foul to New York where he was meeting with The genovese vase crime family. The top leaders genovese crime family obstensibly to fill them in on details of what had happened in Detroit and then twenty pounds although Eventually there's there's there's been a a gravitation in the last ten to fifteen years for agents that have investigated the case And a lot of them have gravitated towards the belief that Twenty what was the killer and he not. He climbed the ladder In the crime family very fast after this kind of was able to fast track mob career Post nineteen seventy five became. A crew. Boss eventually became a capo. Then eventually was named Consiglieri of the crime family. He died In January the stomach cramp of stomach cancer January two thousand nine hundred and he was caught on a wire nineteen ninety-two bragging about his involvement movement in the hoffer murder and then in two thousand twelve. When Tony's really the former underboss of the Detroit mob went to the FBI and tried hi to help them solve the HOFFA case? He told them that. Tony Jack Aloni told him that Tony Solo was the killer. So that's what I believe. That's your theory. That's a pretty strong theory Bernstein. Yeah I mean it's got Bernstein Christian guy but I'm just saying I I could I buy all that believe. All of that is much as anything or anyone else again. That's much more knowledge than I had ever growing up. Or you analogize till I met got so I just for whatever reason in my mind for some reason. It's it's called it. A hypothetical scenario that that bodies could have been ground into pigs feed at the Detroit Meat Packing Company. Where where are you getting that from? My head is the reason why because I feel like you're you're conflict with twenty thousand. Everyone that he put him in a sausage Auger mean. Tony although hello is like a great uncle was a great uncle through my. It's my grand- my grandmother's Cousin but anyway. So No I. I know that my grandfather is Warehouse and Easter Market Produce was behind the old Detroit meatpacking company and I remember going in there and they not saying they dispose of bodies. I'm I'm not saying that. But let's say hypothetically you could and it's Don Detroit's only ten minutes from where it happened with off the thing. I'm you know this deal awaited needed to make a body bash my mind all these years. That's where you went but yours makes us as much as what about the the. Jimmy Q had the crematorium to Q. on central sanitation with Bazi vitality. So that's where I think. They took me. Who didn't somebody all the Vignette does they? They have the crematory with the being asked. Does everybody knows they do all bodies for the funeral could've went that way to look. Sanitation makes more sense and Jimmy Jimmy Q.. Owned the the crematorium with Bazi vitality at sanitation they both be cone. Central Sanitation. Let that makes a lot of sense. And and Karl Licadho own Cry County Sanitation so they could've taken embarrassed. Well what's another Sanitation company that had an incinerator. I want to say that's a that's closest closest to the truth is I. I mean that you can get I don't think your sources could be any closer Than the man sitting next to me and I think thank And I think everybody Scott Christian and Allen. I hate to say that I have to wrap this up because it's my favorite subject and everybody knows it but Right we got to wrap this up. You can actually Scott. Where can people find you? People can find me either on my social media. facebook Scott Bernstein B. U. R. S. T. A. N. Twitter Bernie's tweets B. U. R. N. E. Y. S. tweets My Web magazines called Paul Gangster report gangster report DOT COM. and I write every day and the Oakland press which is a local Detroit newspaper And then I have a podcast asked. That's on the intercom call. The original gangsters podcast. That you can find on itunes and radio DOT com just named one of the top twelve true crime Pica one of the top twelve new true crime. PODCAST two thousand nineteen. That's awesome is it. WHO AWARDED RADIO DOT COM? That's awesome so it's kind of like your your bosses telling you out of all of our a true crime podcast. You have one of our best. That's amazing that doesn't shock me a bit an alien Grill Cook since we have to wrap this up. Let's let people know how we can how we can find you on. My the media's author Alan Lim Bloom and then you can go to an instagram under Detroit and then my website is GonNa Detroit Dot Com and then my apparel companies are thing apparel dot com salutes. The big books are to be a king by one and two CERNAN Amazon. Go to Detroit Mafia. Man You go get some of his gear. Man That needs to everyone knows about Detroit. hustles harder and Detroit versus everybody. Everybody as kind of or made in Detroit but Our thing Detroit. which is Allen's brand of clothing? His is some really fresh gear and everyone needs to know about it. I own like eight pairs shirts couple ads on the you know this is coming from from someone that you know and I think Chris Coats on this as well to publish authors for someone like Alan and got a late start in the game He's incredibly talented Naturally gifted as a writer and interest in an outstanding storyteller so read the book read all their books actually you. You won't get enough in person Christian. It's your turn. How can we find you a visit me? A GANGLAND LEGENDS DOT COM and my handle on all social media is gang land. Legend Singular My books on Amazon Amazon. I got a lot of stuff going on. And it's been an honor being on show with all of you so boom okay. All right the all star team. Thank you guys so much for being here today I actually have a my next guest. Is Lynn Fiscally and we'll be on here and actually a few minutes so stay tuned but thank you guys again that was actually really good input and that was the real Irishmen story follows. Thanks bye good afternoon. We're here with one of my. My favorite people Lint excuse me in there we go that coffeehouse any at any point in time in this conversation. I'm sorry in advance. It just won't go away. It's just a little tickle. I have the same taste so to excuse so excuse both of us. But what we're dealing with it exactly Excuse me I met Lynn through a real Through real estate I kind of wanted to know. No more about it and She has really opened my eyes to exactly what people really should be prepared for and what to do but one of the one Lynn. She's not just doing real estate. Of course she's a smart lady so she She's had her hands in the butterfly collective which she's going to tell us about today that Helps you know. Emotionally and physically Is An financially also The the the victims of domestic abuse and violence. So please tell us more because this is something that many many a lot of men and women out there that really really really. Don't talk about it or sweep it under the rug because they feel like they're alone in it's a very unfortunate situation but please tell us more okay so As far back you want me to go but I am a survivor of domestic violence. Myself I left my abuser in nineteen eighty eight so it's been a long time for me but I thought I was healed but really I just buried it under under the rug. I never told anybody about my experience. what I went through You just you know when you're in it you don't really realize that you're in an abusive relationship and abuses many things so a lot of people when they hear domestic violence they think the woman is being beaten and that is definitely a part of it. But it's only a part of it careers financial abuse. There's control there's manipulation there's gas lighting. There's isolation I mean the list goes on and on and so my abuse was was really all of that and the violence started towards the end when when the when the when an abuser feels. They're losing control of their victim. That the violence escalates and so anyways So the butterfly collective the the passion that I have comes from my personal experience that you went through that. Thank you There are one in four women that experience domestic violence in their lifetime of some sort and one in I believe the number is one in nine men do so So in two thousand fifteen I learned about first of all. I didn't know about all of the resources that were available two victims when I was going through it and coming out of it I didn't know about turning point. I didn't know about haven. I didn't know that there were shelters. There is Salat I didn't know and so I was fortunate enough to have a mother that supported me when I laughed and helped me get on my feet but not everybody has that and so And two thousand and fifteen. I learned about an organization called handbags of hope up. And it's a small local nonprofit that would Get donations of gently used purses and fill them with ten missiles because so like deodorant. Toothpaste things that you and I take for granted but our counter every morning when oftentimes in times when a victim fleas their abuser. They just gotTa go. There's no time to pack bag. They'd go slap nothing So she provided purses versus with ten essentials to all of the shelters in Michigan. And because I'm a survivor. That really hit my heart and I needed. I wanted to have a fundraiser for her. And so I started doing this fundraiser and in in promoting it I started getting private facebook messages from women that have either gone through domestic violence in our out or or know somebody and the stories that I heard were awful. Like I couldn't sleep with the word empath and I think I'm saying that wrong. But you know what I mean. Yes so when I hear these stories. It's not just a horrible thought. It's like I feel this pain and the sorrow that this person is feeling and the more I learn the more and then after I did that I was just like I have to get involved in a bringing awareness to the domestic violence so that people understand how great it is and what it is but also help put a stop to it like. There's so much like our our laws don't really they're better than they were when I laughed. my my deciding like I I gotta go. Is My husband at the time. Hit me in public in front of a police officer and my sister was standing next to me and and said. Are you going to do anything to this police officer. So that's a domestic dispute. We don't get involved now. Thankfully things have changed now. They're not like that but still still. The laws are so That just gives me. That just gave me goosebumps by the way just kind of like hits nil somewhere. It's strikes the nerve that makes me angry so sorry Yup Yup but my God that. But it's changed. I mean it's not that bad now. They do respond quickly and But there are still laws like so for me I never reported. I never told anybody in my family. Little report report. What was going on to the police and most victims don't report unless it's so bad that somebody else calls or they feel threatened like like their life is threatened and then they call so? There's a lot of unreported abuse that goes on and then you get to where you absolutely lutely had enough and you then start getting the courts involved. Well you say all these things have happened to you but you've never reported so that's a that's a problem with the system and a problem with domestic balance a lot of reason like I said before you don't reported it one because it's your life you don't realize what you're going through is not normal and to there's so much shame mm-hmm and it's not our shame. It shouldn't be our shame. It should be the person. That's perpetrating. The violence but they don't have any shame that's why they're doing what they're doing right. So there's all of these reasons that we don't report what's going on in our lives right even even talking about it. Some people don't I don't want to even talk about it. Well because because divorce is was an instant still is in some countries vary taboo. You word it you don't you just take it and take it and take because you don't because what would people say right what people say. What would people think of me But unfortunately when they don't start thinking until it's too late you know until something happens to that to that lady the poor girl the to the woman or man you know. It's not just women but still twenty nine and then you have one in four so there's still more of that happening to women unfortunately But it's now you know I'm I'm assuming that it probably you know touched you so much that you felt like you had to do something about it and yes. That's where you're you're at right now. Yes so So it was at that my very first fundraiser for him. Mix of hope that I learned about turning point and one of the ladies in turning point On on a volunteer reached out to me after the event and said you know. Have you thought about sharing your story and I learned more turning point has a an outreach called the speaker the survivor Speaker Bureau and what you do is publicly. Share your story People reach out to turning point and want people to come sometimes school sometimes private events and so I did that and I learned a lot. They they don't just like listen they. There's training that goes so I learned more or about domestic violence how to react to it how to respond. If there's somebody that needs help you know what to do and so I did that for a while. uh-huh and what what turning point does is a wonderful thing they help women that are escaping and stuff you know that there's limited space okay. So they don't always have room for people that need to get away but they do provide many other sources things so yeah so so. That's a really good thing thing but what I found in working with them and what I learned was that there's this missing piece and the missing pieces when they're coming out of shelter or they can't get in shelter but they really WanNa leave. There's no financial help and most of the time one victim is leaving or survivors. Leaving the financial control has happened. She has no access to their funds. She doesn't know how how much money she doesn't have a checkbook. She doesn't have credit cards. She doesn't have any money. So how do you start life over. And oftentimes they don't. I'll have a job. So how do you start life over when you don't have the resources to do that or maybe you have been able to get a home But you can't fill that home with the things that you need like beds like common things that we take for granted so in in April of this year I started in April of this. We had our first butterfly collective fundraiser and It was a fashion show vendor show and it was a success. We had two hundred fifty guests at our first event which we were very very very pleased with the outpouring of support And so what. Our goal is to provide financial support. Emotional support an education to to victims. So we do that Currently have won the ladies that are on my team. She's an attorney attorney that specializes in domestic abuse cases and I met She invited me to How cots what's on my goodness a cocktail Christmas party on Thursday evening to meet and Some some people that are in the political world and mccomb county and. She said that she said it with great With a great word in describing it and that is that we're in the grassroots route stage so We are currently working on getting a nonprofit We are not a nonprofit yet. Although one hundred percent of the money that we make does go to help survivors. We've helped several already currently working with five other women And again it's I don't don't let people know who this is you know it's it's confidential but But we are doing great things and we have gotten an immense amount of support through people that know me and what I'm doing I have always been a woman of integrity and I A a good word to describe. Scribe me tenacious in whatever I do I'm I'm going to get it done. And so I we have a following it started started with me and a friend Cathal reporter who owns most of my circle are business owners so She owns a more your body products. And she she did that fundraiser. With me I am now. There are six of us on the team so and we've had wonderful Local companies do fundraisers for us on the High Salon Shelby. Township did one four us. I'm sure would brewery has has done to for us. Actually we'll we'll be doing another one They're doing one for us on December twenty first and it's a charity giftwrap and you bring all of your gifts that you want to Give to your loved ones and we wrap them for you. And then in a portion of that goes to the butterfly collective and then they're they'll be jar for donations so that all goes to help survivors and then We currently have a program right now. A An adoptive family program where we've adopted eight families somewhere else. Mrs Not not meet directly but I've connected so we we got Actually we had twelve businesses that volunteered to help and we have eight families that were helping so on December twenty second. The businesses will be bringing the gifts that they've purchased for these families and the families will be coming to pick up the gifts and it's just a beautiful thing to be able to make a difference in someone's life in in you don't realize how big that differences I mean and that just that one gesture could change their world and Monodu something date you're doing today so they'll they'll probably Wanna pay it forward so it makes a much bigger impact than we really think. Sometimes it's true it's true I know that You know it is a big problem in many cultures. I mean there's a lot of cultures out there that don't allow you to speak up Mine you know. Most recently Is is is also one of them. I mean just go ahead and say you know being part of the Middle Eastern Region or being Middle Eastern. You don't you're not so much Kellyanne because we've we've been We've come a far away and we've we've come to realize is it. You know you you respect the women in your family and You know freedom and independence is extremely important so maybe not so much ours but the region that we came from doesn't really allow you to speak up and for the women that are going through that it's the hardest because they say something. It's almost their life that they're you know they're they're being threatened hadn't against store You know the whole Family Sean is. You're just shunned upon if you speak up against your husband so I could probably say this happens in more cases than we can ever imagine I I would probably put my my money on more than one in four for women. I would probably agree with that. Just because it's I think One of the reasons that number when I started doing this in two thousand fifteen that number was actually one in three now. It's one in four and I think that's coming from there's more awareness and there organizations that that are led by men that teach One of them's called the mankind project and the butterfly collective was actually born from conversation with my broker Who belongs to mankind project and it teaches teaches men to respect women and hold other men accountable to respect women? Also there are there are organizations. out there that making a difference here in America. But it's here so I usually and I think You know there are. There are a lot of other countries that are in the same. I I would venture to say that you know the Italian culture is And I'm I'm I mean I'm married to an Italian I'm Maher. He's a wonderful man but I just see it. I know women that are. It's in their Italian women on. I've heard stories and it's it's it breaks my heart just know and their ups wrong. It's wrong it doesn't matter what the culture is it's wrong and it happens so So yeah I mean that's so right now if you were a victim of domestic violence or currently in a relationship trying to get out of it What would you tell them today? If you were to be able to speak to them today what would you say would be the first thing you should do while i. I'm going to say that if somebody tells you that they're a victim. Please believe them and probably what you're if somebody has the they've they speak that. They're being abused. They're only giving you a little a tiny bit of what's really happening to them. So you need to understand that. They may not be ready to leave right now. It has to be in their time there. There are so dependent on this abuser because this abuser has told them time and time again nobody's GonNa want you look at you what you know whatever the case might be or are either that or you know what will happen to you if you leave right and the or both in many cases both yes so So the first thing. I'm going to say that if you aren't an abusive relationship you are worthy of love and you do not deserve to be mistreated or abused verbally physically soclean financially. Whatever way it is happening to you no one deserved that? Absolutely no and there are cer- There are people that you can reach out to and I mean I'm oftentimes people come to me wanting to know what to do and I if they want to reach route to me on my face but we we currently don't have a website yet and just being built hopefully by the end of the year. We will have the energy where we'll have have a website and our five. Oh One C.. Three but they want to reach out to me on our facebook page. They can send me a private message and then we can connect and I can listen to them and then advise them on what the next thing to do is start by stop That's individual. Well you know. I'm glad they're women out like like you doing things like this. Because I think a lot of women feel stuck and don't know Oh what the safe route to do the the first thing to do for them and mentally. They probably feel like they're you know they're going to get caught hot right away or something's going to happen to them or you know. What would people say it's not about? This is your life right. This is your life right. You know when you're are you you deserve a better future. Yup just like anybody else absolutely so I will have Lind's information on my facebook or anything thing that you You know any anywhere any source that she can provide will be on my facebook for you to find and if you do know anybody that is I mentioned it said something about it Please just give them loans information. They will do it in time. I'm sure I'm sure but you know as you probably have experienced. They do it when they're probably running when they're ready for sure is knowing they have the support and love that they need while they're in it before they're ready is so important you know. Uh the best thing you can do is just tell them that you love them. You believe them on that. You support them in whatever way that means and that's is very important important Well in okay So my my biggest thing is to is You know you do it with so much passion you do so much class and you know I met you through a different avenue but I feel like doc we definitely met for a reason and look where we are now but that hits a heart string with me because my mother was a victim and and I've I've known so many women that I've seen at person or victim so It's you shouldn't just just take it. That's the thing you really do not deserve to just take it every single day. It's not normal. It is not normal no matter how many times a relative take your fund or or somebody or or the or your abuser is probably trying to tell you it is absolutely not normal for you to be Abused financially mentally or physically. At all at all we do Really quick have a support group that we meet that first Monday of every month and it's strictly confidential but It's open to anybody that wants to come. Begin the healing process in I will also provide this information And obviously anybody who wants more information. I'll just connect you. You write to lend directly and make sure that everybody knows how to get you know how to get in touch because it's it's more serious serious and people think I feel like you know many people think. Oh it's just you know people will change or you know people don't change they. They are who they are they are they are they. I mean they can't but most of them don't you know they say they're going to and they buy flowers and they make you believe then all this is the last time but then it's not the last time in fact. The next time is usually worse than the type before. Because you've taken a back so it's it's a hard circle to break very and it just goes to show what what you allow was what you what will continue caressing you just you. You have to draw a line somewhere And now for for you now. Where would you like to see or take this project actor? This organization obviously is much bigger than a project. This is now a you of life for you so this is part of your life. It's my second job job in a very fulfilling one at that very much so although the uh you know the pay's not so great but the right words are many and I and I love making a difference in someone's life and Yes so where do I see it. I'm a big thinker and my passion would be to become a national known company or nonprofit and maybe start chapters Um I recently read so I'm going to share two things. One is my favorite quote is a mother Theresa Crow quote and that's We can't all do great things but we can do small things with great love. I live by that I love that and The other thing that I recently just read it was a Mimi on facebook. But it said that We're not meant to live forever but we're meant to create something the thing that does and so that is my dream than what I'm doing. We'll live on when I'm no longer here. I'm pretty sure you've already created an amazing amazing legacy for yourself for your family now. Big Pretty confident at that as a matter of fact as real Because she does it every day and I I I you know I watch and follow you every single day. It's very inspiring to me To meet people that you know. Don't let anything in between clean what they sought to do. So your vision to help women. domestic violence violence You haven't let anything stop you since you started as from what I've seen so that's that's very motivating for somebody who wants to get out of a situation like that because it's something that is real something that's not going anywhere so it's it's definitely here to stay stay the like I said the rewards are making a difference in someone's life Last year there was someone that I knew on the Speaker Bureau. Who reached out to me? She has five boys and she she wanted to provide. One of them was at the time. Fourteen or fifteen and she didn't have the money to get Christmas presents and so she reached out to me and asked if she could wrap the key. My gifts to my family. 'cause I had made a comment on facebook About I love giving but I don't really like wrapping. And so she. I said I'd like to do that for you. And I'm like okay. We'll then I really found her need in it struck my heart and I'm like I have have to help this person. So not only did I have her. Come and wrap my Christmas gifts but in the week before she came I pulled together a Ho bunch of support and we provided all five of her boys with several gifts and eleven hundred dollars to help her with whatever she you know. She's got a card that needs fixed and things that need fiqh incredible And it just really made made me feel good and she was overwhelmed with love and more recently like this week. She sent me a private message and said that she just reread the Christmas card that that was given to her. It's probably going to get choked up but that she has never felt as loved and her entire life than she did that day that we gave her all those gifts than that money. And that's why I do what I do. That's amazing. Well no they are loved UH and worthy and they can get out of whatever it. Is that the problem is and they are they are they just have to find a way to believe. Yeah thank you for doing that. That's huge literally I can't really top anything after that. I can't that's hard right to come back with but It's it's a pleasure in. It's an honor to sit here next to you. Lyn Thank you Ireland Sir Inviting Me and speaking let me speak about this Hit just getting the word out is it's important. We can't make change if we don't know what's going on on that's right so I try to bring awareness and and recently we just had Ams Storage Time in K.. Pack donate a storage unit for us. So that when when there's been a survivor in need in the past I've had to like nick. Reach out into my network and say okay. This person needs this and then we try to get it will now. We have a storage unit. So if you're getting rid of furniture we we can't take closed because it's just a twelve by fourteen storage unit but we are looking for furniture so bad these are big thing. Good to Numb If if anybody would like to donate we do have the ability to pick it up. If you don't if you can't get it to us we can pick it up and then that way we can provide it when it's needed currently have two survivors right. Now that are needed. Abed's Oh so okay. That's enough I. I'm going to share that with my circle my network is You know my network of people just like yours very fortunate and successful and I feel like I think we can get a lot for them. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that have some things to give so. That's going to be exciting to throw on my My my social media and just get as much as we can squeeze out as much as we can appreciate it out. It's my pleasure if anything Thank you so much for being You know for coming out and spending some time with me me today and letting us know that you deserve to be loved you know. That's that's we're all human. Yep So I wish everybody wonderful weekend I We'll be back next week with some more episodes but today was very special And please get in touch with me can. My world is on facebook instagram twitter And linked on as well so feel free to give me a call if you guys have any questions or reach out to me on social media regarding how to get in touch with Lynn and heavy wonderful day thank you.

Jimmy James Riddle Hoffa Detroit Scott Bernstein Tony Jack Loney teamsters union murder Frank Sharon HOFFA Las Vegas Union FBI Hollywood hoffer Tony Jacklin Detroit Meat Packing Company director Netflix Tony Provenzano Tony
Gangland Wire Reviews The Irishman

Gangland Wire

43:46 min | 1 year ago

Gangland Wire Reviews The Irishman

"You are listening to gangland wire hosted by former Kansas City police intelligence unit detective Gary. Welcome all you are to present their. I'm here in Gangland Wire Studio. We've got our good friend. And a researcher and go host camellias Robinson on this guideline and and we are going to talk about the Irishman. The Irishman is the biggest topic. Going right now cam. Am and it's got millions and millions on on Netflix. Salva good movie. I'll say that a little bit long but we're going to discuss before we start this now. Don't forget he hit me up for a buck or two to buy me a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer. I've I've gotten a few shots and the beer here. I've gotten a few shots and beers here lately so keep it going Ted Beckett. Thanks a lot I really appreciate it. I see that this guy is a real mob fan. He's from the Moines Iowa West des Moines Iowa. He once was in New York. When the last Gotti trial was in play going and he watched Samudra von testify for two days? Now that would be quite a field trip with damn. I'm not there if you're going to see something. So this dude is he even was in Kansas City wants and he just didn't like follow those around it was just a happenstance and one of our local mob under lades Willie Com Asano. Junior senior was here on trial. And I can't much what that trial was 'cause they said Benny Binion casino owner from Las Vegas Happen to testify while he was there so I think I think it was probably Willie junior used to go out and gamble in Las Vegas on golf. Games is a pretty good golfer and I'll bet it. It was something to do with that but I can't really remember what the deal was. So that he he is a real mob fan. Let's see who else we got here. We got we got John Disown. Oh He's from. Kansas City made a nice donation. I just put Put some Rewards in the mail for him today. John so you probably had those time I am. I got him Ellen Myers here. She just made a nice donation center. A movie got Ryan Stevens Again Ryan. Stevens is a is a repeat offender here lately. Think he's buying Christmas presents. What he's doing with his I had several those you know I did the film festival and and a lot of people were buying extra copies of brothers against brothers. Because it's a it's a nice time to have a sum up for sale for Christmas. Mussa answering it so and you're getting a lot of hits on lay on Amazon prime since up there on prime now folks. I'd rather rent it for nine ninety nine. I don't get much off that prime thing. They Kinda Kinda raked me over the coals on that but it goes just do whatever you can and and watch the movie. Because I think it's a good movie and I've had I'm getting a lot of time. I look at seven five star reviews. That was several days ago. You Know Cam here's I can't I have to stay away from that because all of a sudden I'll start looking for another review every five minutes trying to find out how many people are doing some every two or three minutes drivers crazy so I just I just intentionally don't even look at it and probably have a few more reviews by now. I hope because it is I just. I don't know that everybody's told me. They liked the movie as well. It's exciting it was exciting me in a room full of people watching your movie and it was it was. It was a hell of a good thing I enjoyed. I enjoyed getting to watch it. Come together the other was elvin effort. You know small part of that ever helped me with that script because it's a need those skills I'm not the greatest Roger in the world so Camp helped me a lot and he came up with a couple of Nice little tidbits like When you set out to kill one brother bear be ready to kill them? All and picks of Allah was more Machiavelli than Mussalini. That's gold saint great came. I really appreciate your your help with that. So we're we'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA talk. We're kind of. We're probably a lot of speculation. You guys know me well enough my now you know Cam. We're not big on speculation. But you know. There's all movie movie the Irishman. You know it was. It was a whole lot of speculation that I read that and it was really well written. I will say that it was in Gary. Remember when it came out it was my wife was working at Barnes and noble and I would go see her at work and I would. I would sit there. Read it when it first came out. I didn't know what the hell that meant paint houses. This is apparently not too many other people did. I never heard that before either. I don't know maybe it's Detroit Day or teamsters thing I don't know the camps cracking himself up go to start laughing and take a break there. you know I guess he I was like you know what got me not really remember exactly from the book I should but he was kind of like the forrest. Gump of the Mafia and the nineteen sixties and Seventies. Anytime something big to be their way. I can put up with a lot of that but he did know Hoffa. There's no doubt about that. He was a teamster he did know. Russell Bufalino a low side story on Russell. Bufalino had a prison guard in here from Leavenworth the other day in in prison there for awhile and he when he'd come to the commissary this guy was working around there and he said one time Linda was with with some of his underlings in protectors. He said he's just like in in the movies. There needs older guys are in prison. They've got some younger guys around all the time to make sure nobody it messes with them and and he and his little entourage were down there and he said Mr Bufalino said what did you do with Hoffa's body and this was before or the several years ago. What did you do with the HOFFA's body because it was always suspected he had a piece of it and one of the other guys he just got ignored him and gave him one? Look and one of the other guys that you can't talk to Mr Bufalino like that. Britain guards go inside story on A Russell Move Lido and and Jimmy Hoffa and a and that kind of thing so I don't know what what jumped out at you. The one thing that Gaga Guy Really done a lot on Chicago a lot on Allen Dorfman because involved in the scam that would jump. Data may what what jumped out at you. You mean delivering in the book a delivered the rivals to Lee Harvey Oswald. which I think was kind of strange because we know where those rifles came from? Ah Track that through the mailman right. I think he delivered. He delivered weapons for the Bay of pigs which was kind of a stretch They in the movie he drives to Chicago on. HOFFA's orders to go help a character. Who is Joey? GLIMP- go push taxicabs into the river. Now Chicago in the would have been in the fifties and sixties add quite a few guys who are more than capable all of pushing taxicabs into the river and blowing them up. I don't know if they would need to bring in some random Irish guy from from pencil from from Philadelphia Elvia to help them as much as muscle in Chicago. I thought that was kind of I. Don't know why they need to import a guy. Just because Hoffa wanted him to Joey Glinka was was a hell of a powerful guy he was. We don't see him much but Joey Glencoe ran the Labor in Chicago he was. He spoke pretty much for the outfit if it and he was their Labor Capito it just kind of odd. They would just ship in a guy for muscle in Chicago at the time in Chicago. That again that Allen dormant the thing I mean I know they did. Somebody did send him a message. Back semi did send him a message but a main he was he. He was a teamster but he was like right. Next to join Lombardo and it would have been Chicago Chicago they would not have farmed that out to some random teamster sir dude like that they they would only ones. That would have done that. Somebody else that had done it for some other reason they would have wanted to know why and and had approve of it and they still wouldn't probably would not allow him. Even if Hoffa said you know you need to scared this guy or toni pro or somebody said you know you need to scare this guy. A little bit etan shaky up but they would have done it themselves. Yeah they they wouldn't have vast some some mob boss from northeastern Pennsylvania They can send a guy from Philadelphia to help them out. The the Joey Gallo hit kind of bothered me. There's enough details details known on Joey Gallo and a COP named Joe Coffey. WHO's on a lot of the mob shows? They were pretty sure who did the Joey Gallo hit when Joey Gallo and his wife and everybody went out they. They really had seen Don rickles that night. That was that was true in the movie as far as whether or not he ran into. Russell Bufalino and Frank Sheeran and that night. I can't say they did go out looking for Italian food. They did not go out looking for Umberto's that was the ended up at Umberto's around five. Am there was the third restaurant they had tried to go to. Every other place was closed and Umberto's was opened late it was also co owned by family members Of matty the Horse Nello. Who was Genovese Guy I think and when gala walked in at five? Am with his with his family and his girlfriend and his bodyguard. Pete the Greek they walked in and there was a guy outside Lucarelli. Who is a little hanger onto the Colombo's and he was trying to make his way in and Lucarelli saw him and he was standing outside? You know joking and smoking like you say with With matty the horse who was a cameo and they see they see Joey Gallo walk in. Joey Gallon and see them so they call up. Yucca Valley who is the was one of the the boss. He was a high up in the Colombo's asked for permission. And he sent a bunch of guys over there and per joy. Gallows wife a bunch of little Italian guys. When I'm Balding Shot Joe Joey Gallo? It wasn't a big six foot. Four three hundred pound Irishman woman. It was a bunch of little Italian guys but I've read other accounts. There was a there was a book I read recently about a guy who said Yeah I ran into Joey Gallo one night and he said Oh. It's my birthday. Come with me to go out to Umberto's we're going to go get some clams in a turn. It's a good thing I didn't go because that was an anti-god killed so this this this notion that if you were in the underworld there's a bunch of guys who are on the fringes of the underworld who claimed to have met with Joey. Gallo in the periphery of his death. Or I saw I am that day right before he died. And it's a good thing I didn't hang out with them. Whenever there's a big event like that you're GonNa have guys trying to make a name for themselves? WHO said I was was right there? I was right there man. It's I was man if I if I if I had my gun with me or if I had been a little closer so there's always guys who after the factoring during the come in and claim some kind of you know the whole. It's a pissing contest right gary. I mean we've been from lines you've been frontlines with these guys. They're going to claim every I mean I mean there's nineteen guys who claim the HOFFA hidden that. That's just how it is they. Everybody wants to be the man everybody wants to have get that reputation learn least half some even like policeman will do the same thing there some deal with down and and everybody that drove by you know a few years later it'd be like they were there but all all they did was drive by on duty that night. So it's it's gotta deal. Everybody wants a connection to it or even like and and I'm not being derogatory about mom fans is but I get so many people get hold of me and Gumy about all these connections they have the family and related to them or their this or that but but the facts are all wrong so people will want to grab some kind of connection to any kind of those events so Yeah so so. That's just how it is and a real guys. You know those that do don't top. Yeah yeah that's yeah everybody wants connected. Yeah except the guys who actually did get it. They don't they don't want to say Shit and Gallo had trouble. That had nothing to do with the teamsters are with you know Bufalino and and and you know I mean he had he had internal trouble there with the Colombo's in in you know they just don't you know it just doesn't make sense dance. David get a guy like that to do it. What's interesting is he was also starting his own as sort of a slap to Joe Colombo? WHO had problems with? He was starting earning his own Italian American movement. I can't remember the name that I could. I could find it but so as as kind of just stick ended in the ribs of Joe Colombo Joe Colombo had the Italian American Civil Rights League. Joey Gallo had his own Italian American rights. Italian Americans of America Eric or something like that in the movie you see that Bufalino was upset because what Joey Gallo did was disrespectful to somebody helping American Italian the Americans or something like that and really joy gala went after Colombo for a different reason but he had his own pro Italian American. Just as a little little you know. Just a little shot at Colombo. But he was doing his own for the benefit of Italian Americans. Besides you know being a mobster turned making Italian. Americans look like shit to begin with but they don't do this stuff unless it's about money. The whole Italian American civil in writing was a total scam. It was a total scam. They were just pocketing all the money things about money. Yeah that and it collapsed after Colombo because his guys didn't want to run the scam after that they were pocketing. All the money they were you had to put one of these stickers in your window and basically a protection racket Italian business. It didn't didn't have the sticker in your window. Your windows get broken slick with anything. Yeah exactly I like you said it was an interesting interesting book. It was a good movie it did get a little long in the two. Sometimes my wife and I liked it. I've seen it a couple times because obviously I didn't like that stuff I wouldn't wouldn't be the Helping you out. But I don't know how much credence we can put into Sheeran's claims like you said he was kind of kind of the poorest forrest Gump of the mob. He he he got got hoffa. You've got Let let's go in order you've got you've got the RB Oswald's rifle you got the Bay of Pigs you've got Joey Gallo and you've got Jimmy Hoffa loser and Allen Dorfman in there too so I mean these are these are five major major events that sheer and he just rocked the underworld all at the orders of Russell. Bufalino who wants an important guy from lacking I don't know that he had that kind of pull and I don't know why everybody would come to him with all that it's macy's they are entity unto themselves. I have never ever. You've studied Chicago as much or more than I have. Have you ever heard of any outside mobster outside crime family having much no with Chicago now they know they they they do their own around the teamsters everybody has their own little partnerships but even even in that. They're all kind of fighting when there was some debate Kansas. The city pulled for Roy Williams and there was some fight about that and then Cleveland was pulling for Jackie Presser and there was fight about that. Chicago had their own guy in Detroit had Hoffa for a while until there was fight about that and then they had so. It's not like the they were all getting along route. The teamsters even even the mobs fighting amongst themselves the idea that they were just is friendly group of guys who you send me your guys I mean even within internal mobs. They're all fighting with each other so they're not just farming coming out jobs to random guy because this when you know cooperates with this one. The Chicago had plenty of muscle. And if they didn't you've got plenty twenty of local guys who can who can do the job really and you know they all had a vested interest in getting rid of off at the end though if you think this was. This was during the height of the Casino skimming the Casino Investment Scam. And somebody will leave. I know teamsters swear that those are all good investments. They'll get their money back but you know it was Kansas City had Roy Williams Cleveland had Jackie Presser Chicago had Allen Dorfman and Milwaukee had a guy named frank raining and together they could control the the pension fund that rather international Brotherhood hood of teamsters pension fund which was a Billion Dollar Bank for these guys and they could get loans and I've been part of a pension fund On the board. The board remembers decide. They want to make a loan or make an investment. They can just do it. There's really no governmental oversight. It's a it's a private deal unless it was on the board and he was on the board so so but Hoffa went off and wanted to get back in to run the union. He was a wild wildcard and they didn't get control all other guys Frank Fitzsimmons he. He was a big on van due to want to go play golf. And that's all he wanted and Roy Williams you know they. They had him waiting in the wings because they could control Roy Williams easily he was easily easily controlled by next Avella and Jackie Presser. They thought they had him under control. Now he was a top echelon informant all along but but yeah but his dad was run by Cleveland and they had generations of of running the pressures so who had controlled often. Nobody had control the offer. No Detroit lost it and I think that was the ultimate mistake. Bobby Kennedy made is he thought you lock up Hoffa and clean up the teamsters and really. The opposite was true if Hoffa had been left to his own devices while he was crooked guy he was also the only thing in the the teamsters it was keeping the mob in check at all. You know once once you release Hoffa you've got guys like Dorfman and even even presser was signing the checks and Dorfman and Fitzgerald. It's Gerald. I mean that was just hundreds of millions of dollars Center Vegas for these loans you know and even out of Boston. You had a guy named McCarthy. I can't remember Billy McCarthy. Maybe and he was he was tight with with all the groups up there so like I mean you've got everybody toady pro on the board. I'm Hoffa was the only guy who is trained rain rain at all and I'm not singing. His praises we all know how corrupt he could be. But that was a real. The mob didn't kill him because he was on their side. You they were. They were also at that point. In time they had started in Atlantic City but unable to invest in casinos. They could only get into down the ancillary businesses. Because they really can't that board tight but you know it was just a matter of time before they got somebody in the casino when they Antoni Tony Pro and and Philly and They were in New York and New Jersey. They would've wanted that access to that teamsters. There's money to loan to their own casino Straw man and get a casino that they basically own it could get him started so it was. Just you know Hoffa was he was a flying the argument and you know they had that play at it and plus the other out west so everybody had a vested interest in keeping Hof out because he was so hard to control the. But it's Detroit's problem. I know how these guys work your point if it's up certain families problem if a certain person's his promise your problem like joins block throw. They told him out in Las Vegas after all the hole in the wall and Frank Glutton they got caught and there's things were kind of collapse in that in Las Vegas and they said you know Tony you got to you got to clean your laundry up out there. You got to watch your clothes out there. Some words of that effect and when Kuwata found doubt about that he knew it was Tony cleaned up some mess in Las Vegas. This like it would be. Kansas City's job to clean up some mess in Kansas City. And then Detroit Dob which makes sense that Was it Tony Jack. Jack Loney Jack was involved in this and and that's that's you know that's factual now I think this Frank Sheeran. He probably had an sources that he knows what happened. I think he just inserted himself in. Well I'm curious is what you think as as a layperson an historian and a guy. That's looked at them. All across the board about Heaven Jackie. O'Brien his adopted son. I've got A. I've got my own theory on that. But what what do you think you know. I I think Chucky O'Brien's stepson has been a guy named uh-huh Goldberg. He's A. He's a professor at Harvard. He's been writing a bunch of bunch of books and saying that he's not happy about this. Because it's retrying Huffy chucky. I'm Jackie O'Brien in the public. Mild Name Doc. They're trying they're retrying him in the public eye I it's hard to say always maintained his innocence and I think that it with as much as went into the investigation and the FBI. From everything. I've I've seen. They think that sell sell. Julio did it. And if chucky had any real part in I think the FBI would really come down on him instead of a few months for this that or the other and it ruin it definitely ruined junkies life and I don't know that I don't know that he was at the point where the mob would have involved in even even accidentally. I don't know that they would take that kind of a chance with a guy saying hey could you go pick up your your stepfather and bring him somewhere. I don't I don't know much about chucky except that I do. I do believe that the mob would not take that kind of a chance. Just like how BEF- Lino is driving to Detroit. We know that they were going to Detroit. But I don't think that the mob boss is high bufalino would allow himself to be an alibi in something like the Hoffa murder that close and I right and I just don't know that the mob would take such a risk because if chop chucky where to break and say well yeah I I talked to this guy who told me to go here and there and I mean it would just is be too easy to trace that back I think and they never did traces back through chucky. I think that the FBI had a little bit of a vague on their face about that whole thing thing and so they gave him a few months for for something. But you you'd probably know more about it than than an Ivan I don't I don't know chucky had much to do with it if anything I of course don't have any personal experience with With Jackie O'Brien it. Just there's no no history that I know of about like Jimmy Hoffa being an abusive father for example or Jackie. O'Brien being really jealous. And he feels like he's Getting what he should. I don't know of any history like that. He had to have you know. What kind of motive would he have? And I guess support you know and in in theory the market come to him and they could do came into doing that and saying. Hey you know we want you to pick up your dad you want you to drive this guy and pick up your pickup. Jimmy made this restaurant and take him over to for this meat and and then you need to go on then come back when we call you. Pick him up and then they never call him and he comes back but I no no it just a hell of a risk. Yeah that's a hell of a risk of they don't know whether Jacky Emmy Cheque's you know. Be huge emotional burden for him to bear. I mean it would just be unbearable. I would think that he would eventually crack or he'd he'd do self sabotaging behavior where he'd get himself in trouble and then talk. They're just a lot of different psychological reasons why that would be stupid to do that now. Now having said and all that they did need somebody he would put off with these. I would think often didn't turn up yesterday. That's that's true. I don't know whether that sow Bruno could put him at ease. Jackie O'Brien good. At putting my knees. He could have said they won't do anything to me because you know they got jockeys he's out. Here's a witness. He's not going in this house but he would. We don't want him. I don't want him going out there. And these companies now. I could see where that there's some some credence to that from that viewpoint. But it's a hell of a risk and it could be. I don't know that Hoffa would've trusted Tony. Johny Jack to that point I mean that would be awful awful foolish because you know in in in the movie we see. That doesn't really know Tony Jack. That well he just sort of and of course we know Tony. Jack was HOFFA's guy. He was the guy that sort of brought off into the mob tone. I mean Tony Jack was was was a really important guy in the movie. He sort of the proof character. who sort of hang hang onto Tony Zano? which was which is not true at all? They were related through marriage. But Tony. Only Jag maybe could get him to do that under the guys weren't GonNa make peace and we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA have a sit down sit down. We're going to help you get back in now but we gotta talk talk about how this is GonNa Shake Tony. Jack was Tony. Jack was seen in the health the day of the murder. Tony Jack was at a health club. He was shaking hands with everybody. CEO usually he was kind of standoffish guy and he was shaking hands. And everybody. Hey how you doing. It's good to see us so everybody at this health club saw and shook hands with Tony Jack so again it goes so if Tony Jacklin there and Tony Pro was in was in New Jersey. Listen there's it's every there's every chance that that nobody knows about and it sure could be that the fracture did it but I mean they're they're guys is it Frank Sheeran was committing crimes back in the day. And these are recordings took place in the seventies where Frank Sheeran says on recording two guys that he was robbing with that he was committing crimes with he was like I wasn't even there until the thirty four. I wasn't even in Detroit for that wedding. Until the thirty first and these are guys that he was robbing with and likely wouldn't in and he was drunk when you're drunk and you're around you know your co criminals that's when guys start telling tales. He was if he was gonNA views going to say okay. Anything he he probably would have the F. B. I. Doesn't doesn't believe Sharon had anything to do with it now. Dan who was the big HOFFA researcher. He thinks Sheeran was involved solved. Somehow somebody got somebody got off into the car. If it was Chuckie O'Brien could have been really could have been the FBI around the nineteen ninety s started. Saying that. Chucky didn't have anything to do with it I do. I have read that and he would have trusted Sheeran Sheeran. That's true Sheeran until that book came out here. And always said he was not in Detroit at that time and then sharing said that Hoffa had written him a letter or something and thin and that turned out to be a fake. That Shirin had written himself. I know several publishers turned down because factually it just wasn't there. I know that he was supposed to go on dateline or sixty minutes and they they refuse to let him on because it just sounded like nonsense and I know that the FBI washed video-sharing confessing. They thought it was ridiculous. So I know that brand is was he was an interrogator and he said he interrogated Sheeran for months before shearing finally confessed to having done it now. Sharing is is in his eighties. He's got bad arthritis and a foot problem. You've got this writer sitting promising you a book deal and promising you that you can support your family that maybe you haven't done a good job for months and months and months telling you come on. Tell me come on. Tell me come on. Tell me maybe that would lead you to make a false confession. Maybe it wouldn't I don't know yeah or or laid yet to as you laid out the framework of how these book deals work and and how you know you mark that thing and and what would make it more marketable and make it really hit you know shared. He Bayer may not know this. But you and I know if you can have something like that on your cover you know. Kill Jimmy Hoffa gold man that that thing shoots and he ended up and then they end up with a movie deal so yeah Teheran and he would have seen that figured that out. And I'll say this there's been a bunch of evidence added in the denims that book. They've they've added twenty five thirty pages of evidence that proves these claims are true that the tobacco all the claims. The problem I have with that is when you set out to prove something is true and as law enforcement you can. You can probably speak to this when you get that kind of confirmation bias like you don't it's like with science scientists. Don't step out to prove theory. They try and test a theory. So if this if this Charles Brandt has publishers already believe something to be true. They're going to find every piece of evidence data or interview or anything that proves that it's true rather than trying to test to see if it's true in and you know I. I think you've probably seen a lot of guys who get caught up in that we. If you believe that somebody did something and you can go down there rabbit hole and you. Can you can overlook evidence to the contrary very because. You're you're focused on one guy that I've talked to other other guys who were law enforcement and they've seen guys go down that rabbit hole and I know that the FBI is done that kind of thing and and they've excluded other people. and Bobby Kennedy hated with Hoffa. He figured he went only for Hoffa and ignored the rest of the corruption and it turned out he was wrong long so I think that this Brandt has tried to focus on only sheeran and find evidence that only supports that Sharon did it in that confirmation on formation bias is probably gone into that book quite a bit. Oh yeah that's I used to notice that that when you had an idea on a case Who denic Kinda case and all of a sudden everything just seemed to be almost there but it led you on down on that path but it was almost there and it was almost there almost there? Then I'll send it in the end. It just fritters away but the ones that USOV and you're for sure you got the right person they like you know you don't have that little stream of things you all of a sudden. Have something something that you know you think. Yeah that's it. I know this is it. Then you may build around that but when it's just those little things that that come right after you think you know who did it That almo- almost but not quite they and their leader right down the path man. Dan that that's interesting. You'll never find the one that really locks it in now. That's interesting. What happens is sometimes somebody get a wrongful conviction because you you build up enough these little coincidences that you can get something going but You know when you got at the guy. There's no doubt about no doubt in your mind there is some smoking gun there that right that you know you just know you know. There's some kind of smoking okay gun and there is no smoking gun in. This was all supposition. That's a good phrase. Yeah you're that's a good. That's a good way to put it Gary. You're right so anyhow that's L it was. It was a good movie like you said I I to me. In my opinion I guess I told you guys. We're GONNA low speculation relationship. My opinion bit much better series Lack at four or five part series and and really go into Dorfman and and why what was was he doing the movie just glossed over him. We're not trying to do you know what was he doing. Why did they try to kill him? What's going on there the whole JFK thing Tang if they wanted to deal with that then they should have Yeah you know included Carlos Marcello in there and then Travel Kante and and some of the the other things hangs and getting guns for the Bay of Pigs for the Cubans. There's you know a whole bunch of different facts it can. You can have a whole hour our show just on that one right there in the mob involved in that and they weren't they did have some involvement. And and and you know that Jen Cana Johnny Rosell L. E. IN TRAFFIC. And there's a lot of information out there in those JFK files about all that stuff. Tell parole there's a lot of information evasive about that you could. You could easily build a whole episode just around that whole episode around Allen Dorfman. Is You know You know what. What's the deal here and old episode around Oh the Joy Gallo and had been a really interesting show more interesting if you develop each one of those incidents and of of course the problem with developing each one of those incidents it might have got you might really stretched. You're the believability to then put him in it when you really develop them out. George is It's to get but to get all those guys. Together you had Ari tells Angelo Bruno and you had you had D- Pacino Nicholson did Jack. Nicholson did hoffer ninety two. And he did a hell of a Hoffa Pacino. It was all right but I you know and they did that interesting with the with the computer technology making them look younger but still watching the seventy year old guy who might his face might look thirty five seventy five year old guy. I moves differently from the thirty five year. Old Guy. Notice that somebody else point that I noticed that Robert Deniro particularly I thought he moved kind of awkwardly. I don't know stiffly I don't know if he's seventy six years old. I think that that's probably the way he moves. I moved kind of stiffly myself But when he's playing Suren as a young man he's still moving the same. Yeah I think that that's just as body they corrected Pacino Chino on that. They said that you need to. He said you're getting you said you're supposed to be forty years old when you stand. You're getting you're supposed to stand up on your forty five and but Chino said. Oh what am I doing like. I'm forty six and that kind of laughed about it. They had. They said they had to work on that. Jumping up and take two steps at once and things that they would have done as young men N.. Especially HOFFA HOFFA was. He was a fireplug man he he ever seen any of those videos of him. I put I posted a couple recently. He was on the Dick Cabinet show. He was not you know he didn't creek and grow around. He was a real vital guy real energetic and and so many used I remember as a kid. Everybody when I was a kid. Everybody knew the name Hoffa. Now that's another thing anybody under fifty might not know that this might not know about this move but Hoffa was off offers like almost bigger than the president man he was he truly was the teamsters they could. They could pretty well elected president. I mean after all Richard Nixon pardoning thinking next time around for the Republican Party. Awful will be you know. He's back and he's GonNa get his votes to vote. Republican oppressor backed Reagan which they thought was they thought it was very strange. He definitely supported him. The other Republican and Pardon offer so say Republicans by that point in time. They've figured out how to divide the the union people had to pull him away from the Democrats by By doing that Wore an anti war thing in the seventies and so on fear in the hearts of all those working working guys is like what's going on today in a way and so getting a vote against their own interest for a union guy to vote for Ronald Reagan for president. I I mean what does that make. He busted the unions. I mean it was done. Reagan Reagan that unions lost so much power darnall with busting the the Aircraft Africa Controllers Union. He busted out union and they vote for Ronald Reagan. I made it a union. You know I've been in the Union you'll vote like your union elgible. They'll get the word around how they want you to vote. And if you're you're union guy that's vote. That was Chicago used to control the elections. You get out to the unions and you one of the wage Chicago a lot of ways to control. The the unions were one way to a huge legal power. Not only getting money. Out of the pit was yeah. Access tested the money. But that's a big source of power but but to control the vote and so that validations that's it's amazing. All right so I think we've done done this. I think we've ran the Irishman into the ground but it was a good movie. I definitely will much again. Especially since it's on Netflix up. I wouldn't go in the theatre again but I'll watch it again on Netflix. Three hours or so three and a half after you must have too much free time on vacation lowery. uh-huh occupied need to watch you fill out people killing each other all right folks. If you have a friend or relative as a problem with drugs or alcohol make your first call to I call. Call eight one six three six one fifty nine hundred or go to their website right. WWW DOT I go KC dot org. And don't forget I haven't movie out as you all know by now. Go to Amazon prime. You know you could buy it if if you want. DVD and I've got some raw interview interviews as my special features on that but And it helped me out a lot more. Help the podcast at a lot. More if you buy off my website website but I I appreciate all the support that all you guys give me out there and continue to give me we. Are we break even at least every year. which is you can't ask for for more than that and it gets all this fun to write GAM? That's right that's right man. Got My book leaving Vegas how. FBI wiretaps domination. Las Vegas Casinos. Get The kindle version because I attached a whole lot of the actual wiretaps to the kindle version and go go right online from your ipad while you're reading and listen to the actual wiretaps candy mob to wrap. That's just damned unique. I think it's just real unique to you So my job as you got digital. You've got against any BOB covered. That's right Breisach gone after we have had some tax on my website in the past but they seem to be over for now knock on wood. I had a guy get hold of me. And he said you guys don't know what you're talking about some anonymous party through email l. and he's talking about in the act like he's from Kansas City said. What about all these guys? It have these real nice houses and and don't have any means of income and I know they're doing some kind of an internet scams so I don't know I probably are just research and a guy in New York City. That was involved in what they call. All this was a few years ago was involved in a phone cramming scheme where they were Remembering used to have those numbers that you could call and can you Once you called that number then it would Throw big charge on your bill. Yeah it gets you to call that number or they had other scams through. There's there's one company That I think that's what they call cramming. They had other scams the company in in a porn site where they get your phone number and they they could start dart inserting just small amounts of money on a credit card or a phone bill and what he knows like four or five bucks. I have to go through mind. Find every once in a while my credit card bill and say what is that fifteen dollars for now for some other apnea make the CBS APP. Yeah CBS so it's five ninety nine a month. I forget that I've done it in these fees. Oh yeah they do. I imagine everybody out. There can relate to that you've got about four or five different little things on your credit card that come in every month and he can't really remember what therefore at an insurance policy that I got is an accidental accidental life and debt. That I got one hundred thousand dollars after. I left the police department because I go out. Ride that motorcycle and I do Risk and I thought well you know I'll just go ahead and get that make my wife a because it is very much. For accidental. Death and dismemberment. Yeah but I forget. That's what it's four and there's no that really say was force like thirty five dollars every three months or something like that. You know. It's like well. What is is is thirty five dollars for even called the police department pitching part of it and ask them? What the Hell is that for? Accidental death Insures Oh you got so many house so moving right along. I think that's all we got on this. Don't you cam you gotta think yeah. I think so now we we did did it and under three and a half hours to. Yeah all right Cam deny Gary using provided by our good friend and Superfan from Portland Oregon. Casey McBride Thanks Casey

Jimmy Hoffa teamsters Sheeran Sheeran Chicago Detroit Allen Dorfman HOFFA FBI Chucky O'Brien Jack Loney Jack Russell Bufalino Joey Gallo Las Vegas Kansas City Antoni Tony Pro Joe Joey Gallo New York City Jackie Presser Gary Colombo
Author Investigates His Family Ties To Jimmy Hoffa's Disappearance

Fresh Air

47:46 min | 1 year ago

Author Investigates His Family Ties To Jimmy Hoffa's Disappearance

"From whyy in Philadelphia. This is fresh air. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Today inside into the nineteen seventy-five disappearance of mob connected. Did teamsters leader Jimmy Hoffa betrayed by Al Pacino in the new film. The Irishman we talk with Jack Goldsmith. Who Stepfather Chuck? O'Brien spent decades at Hoffa's aside willing to do anything for his boss like intimidate nosy journalists. He purchased ahead of a cadaver. Put it in a box wrapped up the box and Senate you too Martin. Hayden who is the editor of the Detroit News when Hoffa disappeared authorities fingered O'Brien as a suspect and the new film depicts him driving Hoffa to who is Murder Goldsmith. A Harvard law professor poured over records talks to FBI agents on the case and reached some surprising conclusions about what really happened. Spend also film critic. Justin Chang reviews little women. The new Martin Scorsese Film. The Irishman is introducing a new generation of Americans to Jimmy Hoffa. Ah The tough mob-connected leader of the teamsters union who vanished and was presumed murdered in nineteen seventy five. HOFFA's disappearance is one of the great unsolved crimes of the twentieth century. Our Guest Jack. Goldsmith has a close family connection to Jimmy Hoffa and to his mysterious demise. Goldsmith is a Harvard law professor but he's best known for having headed the office of Legal Counsel in the George W Bush administration during his tenure. He challenged the warrantless wiretapping program. Program and harsh interrogation techniques used against suspected. Terrorists goldsmiths new memoir in Hoffa's shadow is about his stepfather. Chuck O'Brien Brian. A close associate of Hoffa's and about Goldsmiths investigation into O'Brien's alleged role in Hoffa's disappearance O'Brien's a minor character in the Irishman played by Jesse Clemens. In the film he drives Hoffa to his execution a role the FBI long suspected O'Brien played in the plot. But as you'll hear Goldsmith and other investigators have now concluded. O'Brien had nothing to do with Hoffa's disappearance. I spoke to Jack Goldsmith in September. We'll Jack Goldsmith. Welcome welcome to fresh air This is quite a story. And there's a couple generations of Americans who don't remember Jimmy Hoffa so why don't you just tell us a little bit about who he wasn't. Listen his place in the American labor movement. Sure thank you for having me on. Jimmy Hoffa was the president of the teamsters union from nineteen fifty seven to nineteen sixty seven teams. Union was at the time the largest union in the country and the most powerful Hoffa rose to become the head of the Teacher's Union from Detroit. Where he where? He expanded his power over the decades. He was simultaneously the best known Labor leader in the country the most powerful Labour leader in the country and also probably the most corrupt. He had ties to organized crime. He was defiant the law but he was much beloved by the members of his union because he was very successful in raising their standards of living right and of course he was driven from the presidency of the teamsters after some criminal convictions That the Justice Department went after him in a very big way and then in nineteen seventy five. He disappeared and is presumed to have been murdered. That's one of the great unsolved cases of the twentieth century. You are I guess about eighth grader. So then right And I was twelve years old. I think I was in What was I in sixth grade? Okay and your your family's life intersected with this case in a very personal way. Explain that for US sticks weeks before Hoffa disappeared which was on July thirtieth nineteen seventy-five. My mother married a man named Charles Chuckie. O'Brien and it turned out that Chuckie O'Brien who was my stepfather at that point Was Jimmy Hoffa's longtime right hand man and most intimate aid and then after the disappearance six weeks after my mom married him. He soon became the leading suspect in the disappearance he was believed that he picked up Hoffa and are outside of a restaurant where he was waiting and delivered him to his killers. What was chucky? Like toss about so he was. It was amazing. I I mean he wasn't. He was not a man who was well educated and He was not someone who I see now from my current perspective who cared much about the law but he had very firm sense of right and wrong and he taught us right from wrong in a in a in a way that had a huge impact on my life. The main thing I can say about him it was that despite all of his troubles he spent in all of his time every second free time devoted to me and my two brothers and just everything we did. And it's it's hard to exaggerate. What an impact? This had on me because as I say I was basically fatherless for the first twelve years and it was the first time any male attention had ever come my way to that degree and and so he basically did everything we wanted to do. We went to distant counter bookstores. To get count books. He always seemed to be able to get tickets to sports events. Even though he always had money troubles he went to all of our athletic events. He had big cook. Cook outs for my team And he was just a hugely supportive. Supportive loving father right and there were a couple of mob figures that he was close to who you got to know right sure One one was anthony. Jack alumnae A senior organized crime official in Detroit and another one was Anthony Province. Zano a teamsters official and a member of the Genovese family in New Jersey and of course when I was a teenager I didn't know any of this. I mean I read the newspapers and saw them referred to his mobsters but to me. They were uncle Tony and Uncle Tony and they were you know. upstanding gentlemen on an uncle turney. Jack Loney was impeccably dressed. He had a beautiful apartment that we used to go to a lot uncle. Tony Provenzano had an amazing pool table and we used to play their lot and he ended up Giving us that Pool Table One day. Okay so I was very close to these people who are being described in the newspapers. These horrible violent mobsters but to me. They're family Part of this book is sort of a look at the American labor movement. and Jimmy Hoffa's life and it's fascinating you know. He had a reputation as a guy. who was you know violent and corrupt you kind of the worst of the American American labor movement and you argue? There's really more to his story Tell us what people don't know about Hoffa his life and motivations since there's much more story and I really do think that only one half of of Hoffa's career has been told the one you just described. He came up through organized labor. The hard way in the nineteen thirties which was the most violent time in American labor history He was in constantly fighting with police and management in truly violent street fights where employers with the state behind. It was truly violent towards efforts to organized labor unions at a time when the American worker was in just a terrible terrible shape so this is the world he grew up in as a young man and it it colored the way he looked at labor relations with management and the government for the rest of his life. I mean he basically assumed from that early period when he saw the state and and management together fighting unions and violent ways he basically assumed and believed that was the way of the world ever since and that shaped his outlook he was also. It's not well known but he was also a true genius and this is not a word that this is not just something I think. It's what Labor stories into studied His career have said a true genius at bargaining and organizing and he built out the Teamsters Union and he leveraged the power over transportation and the ability to shutdown transportation which was at the heart of the economy to expand his power nationwide To the point where right at the height of his career right when Heidi was criminal trouble he he won a An historic Nationwide Labor repacked that was really the highlight of his twenty years of dramatically expanding wages and benefits for the hundreds of thousands of the people in the Union. That was actually over a million at that point so he was a very important person in the labor movement and very consequential and very good at what he did. Despite the fact that that as you say he was a serial lawbreaker and had all sorts of Krupp ties. And it's pretty remarkable to have gotten a national contracts for truck drivers when you consider the fact that you know truck. The trucking industry was purdy. Decentralized you're talking about hundreds of different employers in all all over the country and what's interesting as you tell. The story. Is that one of the ways he got so connected to the mob was in trying to get all of these different locals unified fight and negotiating together for national contract and in he was from Detroit but a lot of the locals in the east had some serious mob ties. How did that affect his relationship chip with organized crime? His relationship with organized crime began earlier in Detroit in the nineteen forties but the relationship between Unions in Detroit and the mob. There was one of arms length and the mob didn't control unions in Detroit but when Hoffa tried to expand his power nationally nationally he met an encountered lots of unions that were mob-controlled especially in the east and New York New Jersey and basically don't and he also had to. It was important to get a national contract to slow down wages in the large cities so he could bring up wages elsewhere so that basically it meant that the unions in the big cities would have to at least in the short term. Take a hit so to make a long story short. He basically had to accommodate the mob. Bob Control these unions in order to both win the presidency of the Union and achieve his goal of winning a national contract and for Hoffa. I don't think he blinked linked. I don't think he gave it a second thought. His basic view was that he would do business with anyone on any terms which he found advantageous to him and his union and so so I think that his deal with the mob in the east to win their support for going slow on wages and giving them support for the presidency for half of that was just slyke bargaining with employers or bargaining. Or you know giving money to politicians or judges that he thought would bring him in advantage. It's interesting to say. He was not particularly attracted into mob life. Mob Culture Right. Yeah this is. This is something that Chucky taught me that I certainly didn't appreciate from my research Hoffa's always referred to as mobbed up and mob connected and that's certainly true he had relations with The mafia all over the country. But they're always at arm's length and his truck he said to me he never really understood the Italians He didn't understand the rituals. He didn't understand the code of silence. He didn't understand how they kissed each each other when they saw each other. And he didn't understand the organization he basically dealt with the person in charge of the place or in the context where he needed help and that it was often with the mob and he just he basically viewed it as a transaction like his other transactions the most significant transactions he had were with loaning money to the mob for various projects that they had that brought off a huge huge amounts of money. Personally and for the teamsters Union Union and but for him as I say it wasn't like he was hanging out going to dinner with these guys or Spending a lot of time with them he was for him. It was just part of doing in business Didn't drink right worked around the clock. He was a workaholic. He didn't drink he was he was very very moralistic. He didn't like it when guys screwed around as he would say when some of his People work for him. Or having affairs he was strangely easily moralistic given that he was such a serial lawbreaker he He spent almost all of his waking hours With the locals locals hanging out with members of the Union listening to them. He gave away his telephone number and he would literally feel collect phone calls day and night from any member of the Union Union He was extraordinarily committed to his union. And that's where it's been all the time. Even when he was on trial and had many many trials he would go to trial in the morning and then in the afternoon in the hotel where they had a sweet they would he would basically set up an office on the road and spend the afternoon evening doing union business as Hoffa. I was having these battles and building his union career. A year. Stepdad chucky was with him. You didn't know him yet that that that came later but as you came came to understand it. What was chuck E. Cheese relationship with Hoffa and his role in the Union Chucky MEDOFF? When he was nine years old he was introduced to him and by his mother Sylvia Pagano and so he began? I was actually a very important person in the story. Because she introduced Hoffa to through the mob and Detroit and two other mobsters around the country and she was very consequential figure in Hoffa's relationships With organized crime so chucky new Hoffa and was close to him since he was nine years old and then when he was eighteen he wanted to get a job in the union. Hoffa eventually eventually gave him a a very low level job as an organizer as a business agent but then when Hoffa became president of the Union in Nineteen fifty seven when chucky. I just think twenty three years old he asked Chucky to basically be a special assistant and from that point on from nineteen fifty seven until Hoffa went to to prison in Nineteen seventy-one Cecchi was basically always Hoffa's side. He was basically I mean effect. Totem seems like it's not a very area Attractive where but that's basically what he was. He took care of anything and everything HOFFA needed from meals to organizing meetings to collecting intelligence. He he was also a bodyguard. He would Tie Tie in the morning because often never was very good. At tying a tie he was basically his run around the clock assistant but they it was more than just that they were. They were extremely close in. Everyone believed because they were so close. Because Hoffa was always covering for Chucky or showing affection to chucky that he'd usually didn't show to others. Everyone assumed it was widely rumored that Hoffa was actually his real father. You don't think that's the case. I spent a lot of time digging and I do not believe. That's the case. I think the the reason people believe that is because Hoffa was very very close to chuck his mother Sylvia Elvia and because he had heard such showed such affection to Chucky. But no I don't believe it was the case. I mean if for no other reason than that at the time. CECCHI was born born in the year two. Before there's no reason to think that Jackie's mother and Hoffa were in the same town near one another but also chucky insists that it wasn't true and I believe he he would do almost anything for Jimmy. Hoffa what are a couple of the wilder moments in in his service of of Jimmy Hoffa. He said to me many times that he would do do anything for Jimmy Hoffa. Some of the stories recount in the book are one of the funniest ones. I guess it's funny is the time. When HOFFA was complaining about out the editor of the Detroit News who was incessantly pounding Hoffa in his corruption in the like in a way that Hawthorne was unfair and he told chucky take care of it and do whatever he needed to get the gadget to tone it? Down so chucky got the brilliant idea of going to the Wayne County morgue where he purchase a cadaver or purchase. I should say the head of a cadaver. Put it in a box wrapped up the box and put a note in it. He didn't tell me what the note said. And send it to Martin Hayden who is the editor of the Detroit News Do you know what's his reaction was. We don't know what his reaction was. I actually was able to confirm the story through a variety of sources But I wasn't Hayden's no longer with us and I wasn't able to figure out what his reaction was so all of this remarkable markle stuff about Hoffa's career his ties with the law his eventual conviction and imprisonment happens. Before you get to know your stepfather. Chucky he comes into your life right around the time that Hoffa disappears appears in nineteen seventy five and you find him a loving and devoted father for many years after that. In fact you change your name from Jack Goldsmith Smith to Jack. O'Brien taking your Stepdad's name. But then your attitude towards him changes. Tell us why what happened. What happened when I went to college? A lot of things started changing. I I started to think about my future in my life in a way that I really hadn't before I got to college I wasn't a terribly Surrey's high school student in College. I began for the first time to read some of the new books about the HOFFA disappearance. And these new books painted chucky and Uncle Tony Colonie and uncle Tony Province Zano in objectively unflattering lights and so the the kind of the myth that chucking perpetuated when I was a teenager and that I bought completely by the time I got to college. I started to see that there was a quite different reality behind that One afternoon In my sophomore year my car was repossessed by a very thuggish looking repo man in a way is a car that had given giving me and he had not been able to make the payments on it and the car was taken away from me in a very embarrassing and threatening way and that kind of scared me and I started to think maybe association with Chucky will have bad impact or a dangerous impact on my life and then finally I started thinking in college but especially in law school about my career and and I decided in college that I wanted to be a lawyer and I started to think that maybe wouldn't be such a great thing to be a lawyer and especially if I wanted to work in the government which had a dim ambition to do at the time. It wouldn't be so great to be associated with leading suspect in Hoffa disappearance and his organized crime friends right. So do you actually get your name changed back to Jack Goldsmith and you write your Stepdad. A letter would you tell them. How did he respond so on Father's Day in nineteen eighty? I wrote him a letter. Kind of Strangely upbeat letter wishing him fathers happy father's Day telling him how much I love him and telling him that the name change which I told him about the phone call the week earlier was no big deal still loved him. But that I just wanted wanted to have my own name and tried to beat about it It was a pretty unconvincing letter to read it today. He responded by sending me an extraordinary Mary. Eight or nine page letter written on the stationary of the International Brotherhood of teamsters handwritten and his kind of looping cursive handwriting. And it was. It was Something that he later told me he spent a week on all round the clock. He talked a lot of people about it. He practiced his handwriting. So that you wouldn't make spelling mistakes and it was just an extraordinary letter about how much he loved me and how her he was about what I did and how much it hurts my family. My my little brothers who still a Ryan my mother but it was also a letter that said you have to decide for yourself sign. You're an adult and and you have to make decisions for yourself and I can accept this. It's going to hurt me a lot but I accept it and I love you very much. That's a short summary of what was really an extraordinary letter. But that's that's basically what it said and then you really barely had any contact with him for like close to twenty years right so that was in nineteen eighty. By the time I got to law school in eighty six. I basically decided that I wasn't going to talk to him anymore. And I basically come out of my life and I was kind of brutal about it And we didn't speak again. We barely spoke again. I didn't see him for a couple of decades Jack. Goldsmith book is in Hoffa Shadow after a break. He'll talk about his efforts to get to the bottom of his stepfather's involvement in the Hoffa case. And what happened when he talked to. FBI agents who'd worked on the investigation also film critic Justin. Chang reviews little women directed by Greta. GERWIG WIG I'm Dave Davies. This is fresh air support for NPR and the following message come from Bayer from advances in health to innovations in agriculture bear. There is advancing science for a better life because someone with heart issues should still be able to have their heart jumped with joy because a farmer using less water should should still be able to grow their crops because someone getting older should still be able to act young at bear. This is why we science. We're listening to my interview recorded in September with Harvard Law Professor Jack Goldsmith. You graduated from Yellow School and when you ended up having a very eventful. Turn as the head of the justice. Department's Office of Legal Counsel in George W. Bush administration when You encountered the enhanced interrogation techniques that were being used in the wake of nine eleven as well as The surveillance of American citizens and wrote wrote legal memoranda undermining the justifications for that which lead to some serious confrontations in the government. You wrote a whole book about this. It's been written about a fair amount. you left after nine months but I bring it up because I wonder if you're looking at you know the unconstrained unconstrained power of government Had something to do with reconsidering your relationship with chuck it did in a kind of surprising moment ailment and then a reflection on that moment or during my time in government when I was working on trying to understand the warrantless wiretapping program That had been in place since two thousand one. This was in the fall of two thousand three or the late fall of two thousand. Three and the middle of working. On that case On about warrantless wiretapping. I came across an important Supreme Court opinion. That had a citation in it to O'Brien versus United States. And I thought that's strange. Josh and I was in the mid nineteen sixties knew. That was the time when Chucky was having some troubles with the government in connection with Hoffa so I looked at the case and it was actually a case about my stepfather chucky and it was actually a case where the government had legally surveilled in a way that overheard conversations with lawyer and the Supreme Court had Basically invalidated the conviction and ordered a retrial. So this was an extraordinary moment for me for for a lot of reasons. When I was a teenager chucky always raised kind of gone on in his not really legally informed but insistent way that the government always cut corners? He called it back up. The government always was able to break the law on secret when they were going after people in public for breaking the law and he'd always said that he had a famous Surpreme Court case and that the government had surveilled him illegally and I really didn't believe leave any of it And I didn't know about this case law school and I didn't believe any of that stuff that he had said and here I was in the Justice Department working on a program that was has Could be described as legal cutter corner cutting to put it nicely involving surveillance program and seeing smart lawyers who had worked in this case who had made What I viewed as an opportunistic interpretations to help support Unintelligent Program at the president to meet the enemy within so to speak? And in some sense exactly what chucky had said to me when I was a teenager turned out to be true and I was in the Justice Department so in a different context of course so that was a moment. It certainly didn't flip on a dime right there. And say okay I forgive chucky on. I was wrong about everything. But that was the moment in which I started to rethink him and me the and my what I'd done to him and May and I started to rethink that. Maybe I wasn't so smart and I wasn't so justified in my moral superiority. We already to him when I was younger. Man and in my Really Poor treatment of him the during my young adulthood. Well so you left the Justice Department in mid two thousand four and this would have been nearly thirty years after Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance. Nearly thirty years after Chucky was identified. Ride publicly is the guy who probably drove Hoffa to his death How widely known and widely shared and celebrated was his alleged role in this? I mean they're even Hollywood films with him as a character. Right it was. It's not just it's assumed truth. Everywhere you look. There are dozen dozen books who have placed truck in the car. Picking Up Hoffa there are A couple of movies. There's the Jack Nicholson Movie Hoffa that was in the eighties There are thousands upon thousands of stories that have played chucky in the car. The reason that the public believes has has believe since nineteen seventy five that he was the person who actually picked up profit and drove to his death is because that was the early. FBI Theory it was mentioned in an early FBI report that was leaked to the press and that early report from nineteen seventy six has basically been assumed truth about the case ever since then and it certainly certainly was in two thousand four and frankly it is today. If you if you Google O'Brien Hoffa you will find thousands of story saying he drove. Pompidou's death you. You eventually decided you're going to try and get to the bottom of at least chunkys role First of all. How did you reconcile with him? What was that like so it happened at Christmas of two thousand four about six months after I left the government and My wife and my two very young sons and and I went down there to see my mother for Christmas for the last twenty years. I refuse to visit My mom with one exception when Chucky was there because I just didn't want to even be seen with him but I decided this time for a bunch of reasons that it would be fine if he were there he was actually quite sick. He'd had a heart surgery injury. He had diabetes diabetes. My mom basically said I can't ask him to leave. If you WANNA come down here. He's going to be here in any event. I have been thinking in in the months before that. I had terribly wrong him earlier when I had renounced him in basically cut him out of my life and I had come to realize what extraordinary pain I had caused him enlarge part because A my own children. I didn't really appreciated the time when I was twenty one when I sent him and I basically changed my name and renounced him I had just had no conception of how painful that could be. Even though my Mama told me how bad it was and it was really having my own children it was also reflecting on how could moralistic and righteous. I was thinking he was a bad person and I was a good person. I came to think that it was much more complicated than that. Especially especially after. I had been knee deep in some problematic activities in the government. A whole bunch of things. led me to changed my mind and want to apologize to him and bait but it happened one night very simply we were when I got down there. I was nice him for the first time in twenty five years. He responded as as if nothing had ever happened. We had a great couple of days together. We Cook Together. We shop together. He was to care my Baby children and then one night when we were watching Seinfeld In a commercial I just turn to him and I said to him. I'm so very sorry for what I did. View the last twenty years I was wrong and I hope you'll forgive me. Let me come back into your life. And he looked at me with his puzzled expression and he started Crying and he basically said you don't need to apologize on. I understand why you did what you did. And that was basically it and we that was it we from that that moment on we he never brought it up again. We talked about sometimes the decade later but never in any in any way that caused him to bring up those twenty years in a bad way and after that we grew very very close through conversation and travelled together in the like still painful to think about that. It's every time I think about what I did to him and went the paint he went through. It's very very painful. Yes you decide. You're going to try and get to the bottom of Chunkys at least chuckles role in the Hoffa case. And your lawyer. You're you're you're skilled investigator wooded you do. What did you find? And so I decided after years of talking to him after we reconciled just having casual conversations HOFFA would come up. The disappearance would come up and I kind of became convinced that he didn't do it. And the main reason I became convinced was was because of the way he revered often spoke about Hoffa and also because the circumstances in which he was led to have done. It just didn't add up to me. So what did I do did everything I could basically talked to every. FBI investigator that ever worked the case starting with the original four FBI. Investigators Skaters who are on the case to in Detroit one in New Jersey one in New York. I spent a dozen sessions with them their extraordinary men and we actually improbably in probably. They became friends over the course of our mutual investigations into figuring out what happened. What actually happened in the disappearance? I read Boxes Fox's and boxes of government documents some of which are publicly available redacted a lot of which I got my hands on through various sources that have never been revealed and talked about before I spoke to the investigator who was on the case for fifteen years for the longest and I follow up. Leads that suggested that The FBI starting. In the nineties started to think Chucky preps wasn't involved so I followed that lead up and it turned out when I done that I learned more about why the FBI thought that Chucky may be had not done it in Indiana concluded that he had not done it and they had reason to think someone else did so at least a whole bunch of evidence events together. I figured out the holes in the circumstantial case against him and I came up with a whole bunch of reasons why I didn't think he was able to have done what he what he was alleged to have done on that day. And on July Thirtieth nineteen seventy five. And finally I think the the clinching Piece of evidence. If you WANNA call it that is the FBI Bi itself and several agents and US attorneys assisting attorneys. That I talked to were completely commenced. He was innocent. Indeed they were on the verge of exonerating him Jack Goldsmith new book. What is called in Hoffa's shadow? We'll continue our conversation in just a moment. This is fresh air this message comes from. NPR sponsor capital one with the capital one Walmart rewards card. You can earn five percent back at Walmart on line two percent at Walmart in store restaurants and travel and one percent everywhere else when you want all that you need the capital one Walmart rewards card. What's in your wallet? Terms and exclusions apply capital one and a the chat. Bot on Sheila's phone is supposed to ask her questions and but when she starts asking it questions it sends her poetry secret dwelling place mysteries held in the time fact other plan land. What happens when you treat artificial intelligence with love on the new episode from NPR? You're you're now convinced and many others. That chucky was not complicit in Hoffa's disappearance but Always believed that he probably does know things about what happened happened What did you get him to tell you? So one of the themes of the book is chucky struggles with America An and America is the code of silence that is one of the defining commitments in The Italian syndicate and Chucky was not a member of the mafia he was half Sicilian and half Irish so therefore he couldn't be a member but he always completely Imbibed ebbed Sicilian values as you put it and he completely adhered to America and he did so because his mother and Uncle Tony Jack Loney. All the people on the mafia side of his life had not convinced him. This is just the way of the world and so this was very important for him not to tell things he wasn't supposed to talk about on the other hand he knew that he needed to be truthful. With me and then he knew that I wanted to write a credible book so he ended up telling me quite a lot about a lot of things but not everything he didn't tell me I'm convinced everything he knew but he did. Tell me quite a lot about especially the run up to the disappearance and I think the basic conspiracy the disappearance and he told me enough certainly convince me of what the horrible situation he faced after the disappearance in between the government Bhave family and the mob. He was in an impossible a position there and enough to convince me that he in fact didn't Pick up off of that day right. How do you regard his insistence on going to his grave with secrets? Well I don't know how many cigarettes he's taking to his grave but he is certainly taking some secrets to his grave and I'm of two minds about it mostly. I certainly didn't try to and didn't push him to tell me things he didn't WanNa tell me and we had this this very complicated relationship over years and years of talking where he was trying his best to tell me things and sometimes indirectly pointing the things things and I was asking question after question interrogating him but I was always not wanting to go too far because I didn't want him to cross the lines he wasn't supposed to cross to explain this dance chance for years that we were both aware of and for most of the time especially starting out. I thought that his commitment to America was self serving thing and probably unprincipled and I didn't really understand it But I have to say by the end I I did come to understand it. At least in this percents for Cecchi it was really in some ways the most important thing in his life it was the principal of honor that he grew up with and that he always adhered to two and frankly it was the thing he held onto for forty five years after the disappearance when he could've sat other things to to sort of Exonerate himself himself. And didn't do you think that the Hoffa case will ever be solved. I'm not sure ever be solved in the sense that we will find fined half his body or remains or that will know exactly what happened in the parking lot in Outside the Mockus Red Fox on July Thirtieth Nineteen nineteen seventy five. What happened there the F. B. I.? Currently has what it thinks is a new theory of the case that it believes it believes that Hoffa was picked up by veto. Jack alumnae. who was the brother of Anthony Jacqueline and it believes it knows who the murderer is? What's the brother of your uncle? Tony with Jack Alani other notice billy was the brother of uncle. Tony I never met veto And it believes it knows who the killer was. He was someone who who was a low level Organized crime figure in the Seventies. WHO ROSE TO S- pretty significant prominence in the family and who died earlier this year? I don't name the person the book because I don't know what the basis of the FBI judgment is told me that several people told me that They have Sir Valence evidence and Informa- evidence that makes it think that this is what actually happened to hop for at least two is involved. I don't beyond that I don't know and I don't think the FBI has a clinching case. I think they have Basically information about who they did it but not how the kind of the irony is that in an abroad or sand super super sort of clear from the beginning that Hoffa was engaged in a course of conduct trying to return to the presidency of teamsters and attacking the then president it Frank Fitzsimmons and his mob ties and was making enemies. Yes he and he brought this on himself quite literally and in the book. I give a lot a lot of new detail about the run-up to the disappearance. The disappearance based on everything we know and everything I reported in the book was perfectly predictable. Consequence of Hamas offers behavior he was basically threatening to reveal How the mob and infiltrated the teamsters and he was threatening that in incredible way? And that's basically why he was killed House chucky now he's Not In great shape he has is a bunch of medical problems and he goes up and down he still with us but he's not in great shape as has he seen read the book he has read the book. Yes what did he think. Well I showed him the book before I decide to publish it. I originally was going to wait until until after he passed away. Publish it because I was afraid there will be some things in there that he wouldn't like and that even with dishonor him and at the same time he really wanted me to publish it before the squeezy movie came out because he wanted the world to know that he in fact did not kill. Jimmy Hoffa did not drive into his death so I decided that I was going to allow him to make read the manuscript and decide whether I publish it or not. I was going to abide by his wishes. I saw him reading parts of the book. So I'm Wentz a few times. He asked me to take out two or three very small things just out of respect for various people nothing material to the book. So that's what I knew before the book was published. He's read it since then I know he's read it now since it's been published. He's got a variety of emotions about different emotions at different times and he told me he was sorry for being such a pain in the ass by not telling me things. We'll JEKYLL Smith Thanks so much for speaking with us. Thank you very much Jack. Goldsmiths book is in Hoffa's shadow a stepfather disappearance in Detroit and my search for the truth coming up film critic. Justin Chang reviews. Little women can directed by Greta. GERWIG this is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message come from each raid. Investing your money shouldn't require moving mountains tins no matter how much or how little experience you have. Each raid makes investing simpler and for a limited time. Get One hundred dollars when you open a new account account with just five thousand dollars. It's all about helping your money work hard for you. For more information visit each raid dot com slash learn more e-trade late securities. LLC member SIPC support for NPR also comes from whyy presenting the podcast. Eleanor amplified and adventure. Series kids love here reporter. Eleanor Atwood crafty villains and solve mysteries as she travels the globe to get the big story available where you get podcasts or at whyy dot org writer director. Greta Gerwig reunites with her lady. Bird star search or Ronin in the new film little women in Gerwig Adaptation Ronin Stars as Louisa May alcott headstrong heroine Jo March film critic. Justin Chang has this review over the past few weeks. I've had people ask me about the new little women with equal parts excitement and nervousness. Was it any good after so many earlier. Screen adaptations of Louisa May alcott's beloved novel. Aw from the Nineteen thirty-three Katherine Hepburn Film to Gillian Armstrong's nineteen ninety-four version. Did we really need another go round with the march sisters. I'm happy happy to report that the answer to both questions is a resounding yes. Greta GERWIG has reshaped. That's novel with a touch that feels both faithful and radical. She wants to give us all the warm homespun pleasures and emotional satisfactions of little women. The period costumes. The sisters fireside chats some scuffles their verbal emotional sparring matches with the boy next door. Laurie but GERWIG also wants to hold this. Well worn text up to the light to to approach it from a fresh perspective and even consider some of its flaws and compromises. Her boldest stroke is to shake up the chronology cutting between two timeframes frames that begins seven years apart when the movie opens. SEAR Ronin Brash ambitious. Joe March is already in New York pursuing her dream of being in a writer the first scene finds her meeting with a publisher. A sly tracy letts and arguing over the plot and the fee of a story. She submitted Joe. Joe Is treated as a stand in for alcott herself who also had to negotiate to protect her work right from the start. Gerwig makes clear that this will be a story about the limited the opportunities that were then available to women especially women artists. That's also true of Joe's youngest sister. Amy Played by a vicious Florence pugh. She's in Paris studying to be a painter but she knows she'll have to marry well to secure her future. While there she runs into Lori perfectly played by Timothy Chaumet in full tussled heartthrob mode. They argue over the subject of marriage and a wealthy young suitor. Who's been courting amy? I've always known I would marry rich. Why should I be ashamed of that? Need to be shamed of as long as you love. Well I believe we have some power who we love. It isn't something that just happens to a person. I think the poets might disagree. Well I'm not a poet. I'm just a woman and as a woman. There's no way for me to make my I own money not enough to earn a living or to support my family. And if I had my own money which I don't that money would belong. Belong to my husband the moment we got married and if we had children they would be his not mine they would be his property. So don't sit there and tell me that marriage is an economic proposition opposition. Because it is may not be for you but it most certainly is for me by contrast the eldest March sister. Meg played by Emma Watson Watson with her husband John for love and doesn't regret it despite their everyday struggles with money they still live in their Massachusetts hometown. Asked us the shy I Beth. March played by Eliza scanlon. WHO's already sick and growing steadily weaker? Although no prior familiarity with little women is necessary to enjoy this movie. Gerwig knows that many in the audience will know the story well and that's why she feels liberated tell it as irreverently as she does here after her following the grownups sisters separately for a while she takes us back to their girlhood years when they were all under the same roof. There's the party where Joe meets and dances with Lori. The Time Amy Burns Joe's manuscript out of spite the kindness of Laurie's grandfather sweetly played by Chris. Cooper who gives Beth his piano. There is the warm angering presence of Laura dern as the sisters loving mother Marmi and also the sour condescension of Meryl Streep as their rich imperious aunt march. These moments overlap with later ones including Joe's spirited literary arguments with a professor in New York. Played by the brooding French charmer. Louis Got Al Has Ladybird GERWIG racist through every scene with a furious velocity she combines overlapping dialogue warling camerawork work and quick cuts to exhilarating effect. You feel as if you're in the room with these characters swept up in their domestic dramas at the same time. There's something I'm deeply piercing about. The Way Gerwig keeps flashing backward and forward so that past and present seem to be echoing each other while the structure takes some getting used to it it begins to pay off emotionally in a way that I've never seen little women do before the happy moments feel all the more fleeting the tragic ones all the more inevitable Emma Watson and Elisa scam and make a lovely Megan Beth but their characters feel secondary by design. This little women is a fierce tug of war between Joe and Amy Amy and Syria Ronin and Florence. PUGH are blazingly good as two highly competitive sisters who are more alike than they care to admit both are equally determined hermit to forge their own paths in art and in love speaking of love alcott famously had a different ending in mind from the more conventional romantic antic one. She was pressured into writing by her readers and her publisher one hundred fifty years later. GERWIG sets out to gently redress that wrong. With a a clever Meta fictional twist that both honors and subverts the original it's enormously satisfying to seek gerwig bridge the gap between the expectations of readers then and the desires of audiences. Now she hasn't just made little women her own. She's made a movie that rightly belongs to all of us. Justin Chang is a film critic for the L. A. Times Justin. We'll be back on Monday. Show along with our TV critic. David Bean Cooley. When we look back at the year in movies listen television till each have their ten best lists? You might want to catch some of their favorites during the holidays. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy Nesper for Theresa Madden directed today show. We'll end with the Hoagy Carmichael Song. Winter Moon from an album of winter songs featuring singer Rebecca Kilgore with the band. Echoes Gustav Schwab. When do you recall in this love? There's some aw Oh winter up there in. Are you as lonely took.

Jimmy Hoffa Chucky MEDOFF Professor Jack Goldsmith Detroit FBI Teamsters Union Chuckie O'Brien HOFFA Union Justin Chang president Fresh Air New York Justice Department Detroit News Jack Loney NPR Chuck Greta Gerwig Martin Scorsese
Jack Goldsmith on 'In Hoffas Shadow'

The Lawfare Podcast

59:45 min | 1 year ago

Jack Goldsmith on 'In Hoffas Shadow'

"O'Brien versus the United States was my stepfather and Hoffa versus United States was awful and it turned out that these were to somewhat obscure opinions from the nineteen sixties that had in fact vindicated claims behalf and O'Brien that the governor especially the O'Brien case my stepfather that the Justice Department had actually overstepped and engage in unlawful surveillance and this was something of a famous case back in the sixties and I was amazed when I read it for so many different reasons because it just brought a completely different part of my life is stressful period when I was a young man into the store the Justice Department and it also made me realize my stepfather he had always told me about Justice Department malfeasance and how he had this famous case in the Supreme Court. I never I believed I'm Jacob Schultz and this is the law fair podcasts October fifth two thousand nineteen in nineteen seventy five Labor abry union leader an American icon. Jimmy Hoffa went missing forty four years after HOFFA's disappearance. The crime remains one of America's greatest unsolved mysteries. One of those frequently considered a suspect in Hoffa's murder is Chuckie O'Brien Hoffa's longtime right him O'Brien also happens to be the stepfather other of l'affaire co-founder and Harvard Law Professor Jack Goldsmith in his new book in Hoffa Shadow Goldsmith details own rigorous investigation office disappearance and explains why the long held assumption of Chunkys role in Hoffa's death misguided yet. The book is more than a murder mystery in it. Goldsmith also reflects on the evolution of his own relationship with his stepfather. At the Texas Tribune Festival Benjamin would have sat down with Goldsmith to discuss his new book look how he came to write it and his relationship with Chucky. It's the law podcast episode four Fifty Eight Jack Goldsmith on in Hoffitz shadow so Jack I want to start with a the opening anecdote of the book which kind of connects the book to a lot of the themes themes that we work on at law fair how did working on the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping wiretapping program bring you to reevaluate your relationship with your stepfather and launch a project that ended up with the book about whether or not he was involved in the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa good. Thanks for your kind words about the book so before I tell the opening anecdote my stepfather person who became my stepfather when I was twelve years old six weeks before to be Hoffa disappeared as a man named Charles Chuckie not O'Brien and he adopted me a the next year but he became my father about six providence robin disappeared off his right hand man and his closest aide for Twenty Years Hoffa. He knew Hoffa since he was a boy. This is the first week of the disappearance my my stepfather was the leading suspect in the person that was thought to have picked up Hoffa and driven him to his killers so I grew up in the Hoffa Maelstrom and that's the background to the event you asked me about which which is flash forward thirty almost thirty years later and I am a senior official in the Justice Department ahead of the Office of Legal Counsel Council and I had been in the job about three months and I was working on as Ben says President Bush's warrantless wiretapping program which was full of legal problems and it was an extremely stressful moment because I was trying to figure out whether the program could continue whether it would have to be pulled back. Jack was deemed to be a very vital program at the time the threat reports were off the radar screens they hadn't been since nine eleven and so. I was torn between trying to put this program on a sounder legal basis and worried that if it had to pull back it was going to harm our effort in preventing terrorist events and I was sitting in the Justice Department late one night rather stressed out and tired and I was reading how to stack a fourth amendment opinions on my desk because I was trying to learn about the fourth amendment I actually wasn't an expert on the Fourth Amendment when I began this job so to understand the program I had to understand the fourth amendment right which is the main constitutional provisions that govern surveillance in this country and I was reading this opinion called Burger a late nineteen sixty s opinion and I was retired reading these opinions and this opinion and out came to citations O'Brien versus United States auto versus the United States and I hadn't thought about got my stepfather that much while I was there but he was always in the back of my mind but O'Brien versus the United States was my stepfather and half versus United States was off and it turned out these were to somewhat obscure opinions from the nineteen sixties that had in fact vindicated claims by half and O'Brien that the governor especially the O'Brien Brian Case my stepfather that the Justice Department had actually overstepped and engaged in unlawful surveillance and this was something of a famous case back in the sixties days and I was amazed when I read it for so many different reasons because it just brought a completely different part of my life is stressful period when I was young man into the sixth took store the Justice Department and it also made me realize my stepfather who's had very different outlook can educational background than I do. He had always told me about about Justice Department malfeasance how he had this famous case in the Supreme Court. I never believed it wasn't a famous case but there was a case so anyway I stumbled onto this case. I stumbled onto and it started me thinking Donna process that led me to reconsider him. He and I had twenty years earlier a I'd basically cut him out of my life. Twenty years earlier mostly for selfish reasons and it started a process that ended in this book that was fifteen years ago the ended in this book and that's how the process started all right so there's a lot in there yeah. Let's let's UNPACK. This was also around the time that we I met and when you and I first met as you describe you had a very different attitude toward chucking than you do now and and you had cut him out of your life and I remember I really remember vividly when we first talked about chucky. You described him mm-hmm as a really bad guy. I think the words you used where he's he was a mob mob mob dub teamster. I don't think he was actually likely we involved with the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa and then you pause and said because Jimmy Hoffa was basically as adopted dad and he may have in his real father and but he was a really bad guy and then you told me this story where when you had been a teenager when you'd kind of acted did up he threw you up against a wall and said I've killed guys for less than that. I had no doubt that he meant that literally so in the book number one you made clear that Jimmy Hoffa was not in fact his father you also know that when I started the book right a lot of research search so you also make clear that you actually idolized him as a teenager you were and you were very close house and you paint him in this very loving way that does not yet he is mobbed up teamster guy in fact we'll get to that in a little while but you paint him with enormous sympathy and so. I'm interested in the emotional trajectory on your part between being a a kid who this guy marries your mom and becomes your kind of idol to your repudiation of him. You changed your name to avoid Loyd his name to this reconciliation that brings you back to this very warm relationship with him great so it happened in stages. idolize. Jason was a teenager as I said he came into my life and I was twelve years old at that point my I had a stepfather a biological father neither of which were good fathers they were my biological father was quite bad. Father never really had a male fatherly figure in my life and Chucky as I call him now or sometimes Allen pappy. That's another story. He came into my life at a time that was six weeks after they got married. It was the Hoffa disappearance just developed our life but during all of that he was just an extraordinary father and he was extraordinary father because he showered live on me and my brothers love and attention and he did everything with us and he looked out for us and he taught us right from wrong and a very serious way even though he had trouble with it in his life and I just lapped up the male attention and his strength and his love my mom was very ill so during my teenage years I just thought he was the greatest person ever lived and I completely absorbed values. I love the teamsters as union. I thought they were the greatest thing and the mobsters that he was close to who were my uncles uncle. Tony Jack Loney uncle Tony Provenzano people that we used to hang out with guys I mean I really admire them looked up to them and I basically bought his story that Mafias kind of Bologna. I wasn't sure if that was right or wrong but I didn't worry about it. The government is terrible thing that they've constantly breaking the law and that was my worldview up through college and it was the time during which I just we're very close in college. I started to rethink all this. I read some books about the disappearance it turned out that he had this ballot and criminal past which I hadn't really paid attention to her. It didn't know about it turned out that a re- bowman came one day and violently took what my car that he had given me because he had not made payments on it and that kind of scared me. I started thinking about my career. Got The L. Law School and I started to basically weekly things I used to idolize. I became embarrassed about unafraid about then during law school several years later. I essentially completed this process process of basically cutting him out of my life at a time when I was thinking I wanna work in Washington. I want to be a lawyer might WANNA work in the government. It's not GonNa be good for my career to be associated with these mobsters and my stepfather all right but if so that's a super harsh kind of retroactive proactive self critical if we had talked to Jack Goldsmith Yale Law students and everything is the fault of the law school ultimately but but it and if we had had this sort of the same conversation at the time you were changing your name. What was the version of it that you would have told them so? I changed my the name after college so that was a very painful event for him and I discussed that in the book and we exchanged some amazing letters retrospect but in here's here's I was thinking about mad at the time at the at the time especially when I was at Yale and studying law and think about my career I didn't tell myself I told myself a little bit part of my thinking was I had this trajectory and I don't want to be associated with him. I WanNa have my life and I don't want it to be harmed because of my situation with him but it was more than that also had convinced myself that he was a bad person. I convince myself that he had done criminal acts. I had convinced myself that he wasn't reliable. These are true. He what he had done come relax he wasn't reliable sometimes and so. I just basically painting with a broad brush that he was a bad person and that I was justified in in in distancing agency myself from him all right so now fast forward another twenty years and we're back in the Justice Department in what I think got can safely say is probably the most professionally stressful situation you've ever dealt with which is March of two thousand four in a short space of time. The Byu withdrew Moro Elsie memo's than probably a lot of a lot of the rest of O. Eil C. had ever ever withdrawn and point at least to that point and you were told that this would endanger through the national security of the United States if you did this and you did it anyway and somehow this process causes you or triggers the beginning of a kind of revisitation of Anna. Maybe a sense of guilt about how you had engaged with with chucky causes. A certain movement went toward reconciliation just house about that yeah. A couple of things happened. A lot of things were happening at once so it was a very stressful period it was the most stressful stressful period in my life by far and it was a searing time and I started to think about a lot of foundational things in my life. Chucky had always told me about inside the Justice Department how they had their own rules and how enforcing the law they sometimes cut corners the law and there I was after looking at his opinion of his and thinking about this for six months there I was knee-deep in exactly what he described me as a teenager major which I had dismissed at the time as you know the ramblings of a basically a criminal guy who was trying to justify life. I didn't believe him and there I was living exactly in a very concrete way. It wasn't the same situation as he went through in the fifties and sixties but living through what he had described that led me. I think just basically think well. Maybe I didn't know as much as I got I did. When I renounced him. I started to realize here I was at the Pinnacle of professional success at least in the government and I only got this job. I should add because I had renounced him. I had a very high level security clearances and it became very clear during my security clearance process when they figured out that my stepfather was the leading suspect in the Hoffa crime and that grown up with mobsters and it's not a great profile to get security class and it was only because I had renounced him twenty years ago and made that clear that I got these differences and there I had run out seven. I got there only because I had renounced then it turns out he was kind of write about several things so that whole process caused me to rethink I had recently had I had my first child and then my second child had two young children and that it combined with these other things more than anything caused me to think and maybe realize how much which pain I have caused him. My mother always told me that I caused him pain like cutting him out of my life a letter. He wrote me make clear that. I caused him pain by cutting him out of my life. They really didn't appreciate it until I have my own children and started to identify with how I would feel my children did that to me and I also started to recollect that which I forgotten atten which was how what an extraordinary father he was at a time in my life and I was very vulnerable and that I wouldn't have been where I was had been so all of these things led me to over the course of two thousand and four I think about it talked to my wife about it and we reconciled at the end of that year so before we get to the the the meat of the question. which is you know did my Stepdad Kill Jimmy Hoffa? Let's I wanNA talk about the portrayal trail in the book of the Institution of the Justice Department and the institution of the FBI which are kind of separate institutions and kind of one institution this this is a portrait that is just astonishingly rich and astonishingly mixed on the one hand the bureau is engaged in all kinds of legal activity and this is the sort of heyday of the misconduct and in wiretapping and the like on the other hand some of them incredibly sympathetic people that you develop really deep relationships with that is reflected in this book are the the FBI agents who conducted the early investigation of Chuckie O'Brien and weirdly. He develops kind of quite cordial with some of them so all of this happens after you've been a senior official at the Justice Department. There's one point where you're asking Jim Coney for advice vice. This is before he becomes. FBI Director about how to interact so how did you come away from this seeing the FBI and the justice assist departments so that's a great question. It's hard to answer because it's it's a complicated anthro try not to take too long. Essentially is you're talking about. In the fifties and sixties that was the height of you talked about illegal wiretapping most of what the book is not wiretapping but bugging the placement of microphones in a room and this was a technique that was much more clearly unlawful than the wiretapping at the time and it was in widespread use and the government knew it was unlawful awful and because it was secretly kept doing it and they did it a lot in a lot of ways that picked up chucky and his mother and I have a chapter about what they learned in how brilliant pretty awful in a concrete way the surveillance was so that picture of the Justice Department in the fifties and sixties prior to fundamental reforms in the seventies is one that is extremely extremely unattractive and it's basically example of self serving this and legal interpretation and basically by laying the law and getting away with it and no one was really ever held accountable. I'm for that way before it's so before you turn to the sort of more flattering side. I want to focus on one individual who you really spend some time on as as a villain but you you really paints a very unflattering portrait of him and that is Robert Kennedy who you know a lot of people regard as a hero in this story he is extraordinarily unattractive and unappealing before you go before we go to sort of more attractive inside the Justice Department talking about bobby sure so bobby. Kennedy plays a large role in two chapters in the book he plays a central role because he had an historic vendetta against Jimmy Hoffa in the late fifties when he was a young attorney working for a Congressional Committee that was looking Senate committee that was looking Labor racketeering. He was the lead investigator and the thing he was investigating. Jimmy Hoffa the mob labor racketeering there was a lot of horrible things going going on and they should have been investigating and Kennedy actually uncovered lots of a really abusive activity and corruption in the teamsters union including Hoffa but he also uh-huh self broke norms laws in in going after Hoffa in many ways and he was very moralistic about it and he was very moralistic even even though inside the government he was cutting corners in many ways more so as attorney general when he became attorney general his brother John's camp administration in the early sixties he's but for seven years Kennedy Hounded Hoffa and he finally put him away at the end of those seven years and as I say Hoffa had plenty committed plenty of sense there's plenty go after but the way he went after Hoffa both in the Senate and in as attorney general it was really one of one of the great examples of the government over reach ever despite office ins all right so now we're into the seventies and the FBI is investigating. We'll get to the merits of the investigation but talk about the agents who did this investigation and the US Attorney's Office that supervisor so I actually spent a lot of time interviewing the four lead investigators of the Hoffa disappearance nineteen seventy eighty five when appeared and these four men were in their early thirties they were kind of doing the FBI and suddenly they were on especially the two guys in Detroit the biggest case ever and I interviewed them for seven years and we became friends actually improbably and they are four men who just extraordinary integrity. They are the best I've ever seen the their best exemplars I've ever seen from the department in the sense that they still to this day care what happened when they're still committed to the truth. They're still at the time and now committed to following the right procedures even secret and one of the things one of the things I talked about in the book is how the government was leaking stuff either lies or misleading way to try to pressure chucky into talking about things and these four guys did not do that. It's quite clear and they follow the book and so anyway. It was at least through those those for men it. It was really for me. The Best of the Department the bureau. I'm sorry has ever produced great men to this day. They're great men and they we're just had the biggest case ever dropped in their lap and it was quite natural that a focused on Turkey all right. Let's let's talk about the disappearance and talk about how and Chucky and the disappearance so first of all what was chuck relationship to Jimmy Hoffa and and why did the nature of that relationship 'cause he. FBI to focus on him when when Hoffa vanish so so as I said earlier chucky through his mother his mother was very close to Hoffa end his what an office wife tracking through his mother met Hoffman he was nine and he was close to offer offer growing up and when he was very young man when Hoffa became president of the teamsters nine hundred fifty seven twenty four time twenty three in the time he became basically Hoffa's he'd been his aid for a couple of years basically became at his title was something Special Assistant to the president the teamsters union and he was basically by office side every day and we wasn't behalf aside he was in Detroit taking care of family. They were very close. many people thought because of their closeness and because of the affection that office showed towards Jackie the extraordinarily faction even when he was growing up have always protected him and always covered for many people want assumed that Oughta was chunkys real father and chucky treated him like a father and he was for all purposes his is effective father. Turkeys father other left when he was seven years old about the same time that my father left so they were extremely tight and Chucky was basically his right hand man up through the seventies about six months seven months before the disappearance they had a falling out for a whole bunch of reasons complicated reasons that I talked about in the book part of it had to do with Chucky meeting my mother and wanting when you start a new life but had a falling out about six or seven months before the disappearance that's background to the disappearance and when the disappearance happens. There's a whole slew of circumstantial evidence that pointed to Chucky is being in the area driving a car in the area that was a car owned by the son of a mobster there was office sent was eventually found in the car and there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that suggested that Chucky was the right person the right time and off because he knew Chuckie so well would have gotten in the car with Chucky so there there was some circumstance evidence there was this long term intimacy followed by a by a breach with Hoffa and also Jackie was also in addition to being close to Hoffa very close to the senior organized crime official in new in Detroit who is the WHO is deleting suspect in the case also also so because he was close to the leading suspect and because he was in the area at the time and because there was some evidence that the car had Hoffa in it they naturally zeroed in on him all right so let's talk about that other father figure for Chucky Tony Jacklin who Tony Uncle Tony and uh-huh. Why was it that Chucky in addition to having this father figure in Jimmy Hoffa had these very close relationships with very very senior mobsters basically it happened because of his mother so chucky was born in Kansas City and he was half a million and a half Irish to sell you on his mother's side and his family on his Italian side in Kansas City was part of the early crime family in Kansas City and Chucky from a very young age identify with Cillian heritage and he basically identified with those values he knew a lot of the old timers as he put it in Kansas City when his mother moved moved to Detroit because her family had these connections sheep immediately became known with organized crime in Detroit and his mother. I became very close to especially to Anthony Jack Lonnie and it was through his mother that he avenue Jack Loney talkies mother just as an aside Sylvia Pagano is one of the most extraordinary ordinary characters in the book and I wish I could book about her but I couldn't find any more information. She was basically the person who introduced off to the mob and for years he was a go-between between between Hoffa and organized crime figures around the country and she had really extraordinary influence over Hoffa and she was seen that influence and it's part of the reason probably Hoffa was there was also widely rumored that Hoffa had an affair with her this and that and that's why that Chucky is supposedly a father. I think none of that is true. I'm trying to show that in the book but it's basically through his mother who knew all these organized crime figures of is very close to them. I'll just Anthony Jack Lowney but anthony can you province honor and New Jersey as well close to him so on the side but one that will amuse the audience. Mario Puzo has a character in the godfather who is not a Sicilian and who he says specifically is modelled on Chuckie O'Brien Brian and his relationship with Jimmy Hoffa and that is of course Tom Hayden who's played in the movie by Robert Duvall and so let's and Puzo said that explicitly you identify two other movies in which there are characters that are based on Chuckie O'Brien O'Brien three now because one week right so tell us about chucky his portrayal in the movies and to what extent any of the characters bear any resemblance to chucky good so Puzo said that he based this. Tom Hagen after the book came out. He said he based the character. Tom Hagen this Guy Chucky This Irish kid named O'Brien who was always at Hoffa side which he was always a few feet behind her at his side. That's the cover of the book and it was seen in the nineteen. Sixties sixty cents Hoffa was a very famous guy always in the news and pictures and Chucky was always there with him that he was like his conciliatory. Turkey did not in fact have have that relationship. He was very tight with Hoffa but he wasn't his conciliatory. He didn't have the skills of he wasn't. He didn't have great judgment on all the time. He wasn't really didn't really fully understand the business so he was not an accurate to understand. My puzo thought that they were very close. He was have ours have Sicilian kids but it wasn't it wasn't a perfect model of malice involving Paul Newman Sally field that was a story in which Paul Newman was explicitly based on Chucky and that was basically a story written by Kerr decky. Who is the editor Detroit Free Press. He told me that the that the Paul Newman character was a composite character but mostly based on Turkey that was a story about a Labor guy who woke up one day and saw himself framed in the newspapers and it was about the government leaking on the guy to try to get him to talk about a crime that had just happened to try to pressure them into talking. It was very much based on the way Chuckie saw the world and it's the way the decky saw the world so Paul Newman had no. He doesn't look anything like chucky that was actually a fairly accurate portrayal L. in terms of the situation in his life. Danny devito played a character based on Turkey in the first half movie and then Jesse Clemens Simmons is that his name is rumored to play Chucky and the the new movie the Irishman that premiered yesterday so I don't know what that one says so really amazing amazing everything veto Paul Newman and Robert. I'm so all right. Did he do it so the claim was that he picked up Hoffa from the restaurant in Detroit and took him to his killers. They knew the time was never that he that he knew that he was going to be killed. He was kind of a duke who was asked to pick him up and deliver him somewhere else. I always suspected that he didn't before I did seven years of research basically because he always spoke about often reverential terms and just I just I just really didn't believe that that he could have done it for seven years of research and ninety nine point nine percent. I'm convinced that he didn't there are a whole bunch of the circumstantial case against him. I go through the Buchan very carefully. Show why none of that holds up. I give lots of reasons to think that he couldn't have been there that day as the FBI said and I give lots of circumstantial evidence on top of that for why he didn't do it but for me not so there are a lot of reasons to meet the commencement that he didn't do it. Including our conversations hundreds of hours thousands out cars conversation but the clincher for me is at the Federal Bureau of Investigation investigation basically doesn't he did either and I learned that basically starting in the nineties the bureau the agents in Detroit. That's right for a whole bunch of reasons similar to the ones. I talked about in the book and also some reasons I did that. I didn't find on my own that I learned from them. They came to include that chuck. You probably couldn't have been there at that time. There were independent reasons that they didn't think he did it and they developed reasons to think someone else did it. So there's a whole bunch of so I came to the conclusion lesion that no he didn't do it and I think I make the case pretty compellingly in the book which was by the way when I started this book. That was my main goal so okay so first of all I agree you make the case very compelling but I also think the world is littered with books by interested parties saying Yup my best best friends so and so who was long accused of blank is innocent and let me show that he couldn't have been there at the time right so let me just say that I was very aware of that. In writing this book it was a huge burden that I had to try to overcome right so I want to focus on your interactions interactions with the bureau and the US Attorney's office over it because it seems to me that while one can raise that concern about you as an interested party it is it is actually more interesting that their view of the matter has changed than that you in reconciling with Chucky. You have pored over the evidence and found that he didn't do it right so when you said the F. B. I. started to change its views in the nineties ladies and has come to focus on a different person at this point. What do we know at this stage about what the F. B. I. Believes Happened Okay so I can talk about this a bit. I I only talk about this for paragraph in the book. I could've talked about it more my publisher you want me to talk about it more but I decided not to basically I learned from several agents and members people in the US Attorney's office. This is something I had to piece together over the a years through lots of conversations with them in lots of different contexts in which they would say one thing and another about who they thought did it and why I finally triangulate annulating figured out and they basically knowledge to me that that that was correct the bottom line is the F. B. I have I have not looked at their evidence. So I can't vouch what's for this theory. I can just report this is what they believe and I can only say the bottom line is they think it was even though the operation may have been authorized to New York or somewhere on the east coast than it was purely Detroit operation that the person they believed to picked up off of that day in Detroit was a man named veto veto Dak Aloni who is the brother of Aunty Jack Lonnie who had also been close to Hoffa and also been involved in trying to get off to calm down and stop threatening to to expose the mobs involvement the teacher's Union. They believe that Jack Lonnie was the one that picked him up and they believe that another person person they believe killed him was also a very low level. Detroit organized crime figure made man who soon after the disappearance rose in prominence in the Detroit family and he died earlier this year. They seem very confident that he did it. They say it's based on surveillance information that inform and information I believe that their belief about that and that was the killer is the basis for the dig they did in two thousand thirteen looking for Hoffa's remains. You didn't find it was about the twelfth or Thirteenth Day ahead over AH forty four years looking for his remains so as best. I can tell that's where the cases today but I haven't seen the evidence you have to be. I said a lot of things about my stepfather of the government and I should say said a lot of things about my stepfather over the years and they were confident he did it so I don't have any independent way of confirming that that's actually what happened but that's what I do do believe that they believe that all right so mid seventies chuck his life has completely turned upside down by this to this day the US federal government has never said he is no longer a suspect and we're going to talk in a minute about your efforts to get got them to do that but before we do that. I want to ask about the impact on cheque's life of being like what what happens to you when the government decides that you're the principal suspect in the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa so not a good thing this was I mean for for those of you who remember this was a huge deal in the seventies. I mean it was front page every day. It was a national sensation it was a circus and Chucky was is in the center of the circus and from the very beginning he was named the suspect there was an affidavit by one of the Detroit agents the one became very very close with one who actually told me for the book that he now doesn't think chucky did it who swore in nine hundred seventy five that Hoffa was picked up and taken to his death by the car chucky was driving so the FBI very early on made it clear that they thought it was a central suspect that they also leaked lots of information. Some of their internal reports some some unattributed quotation saying he did it. We have evidence for about to indict him over twenty years. It is not a great thing for to be accused of that especially since Hoffa was effectively as father and it had a terrible impact on him my mother our family emily it's it ended up basically running. His reputation obviously ended up making it impossible to work in the teamsters union so it had a devastating interesting impact and just just reiterate. They had good reasons for thinking he did it. They didn't need to leak false information like show that they did over the decades the government but they had good reasons for focusing on him in the beginning amber twenty years thereafter but it was it was terrible to move through so one of the good reasons or maybe the not good reason but one of the big reasons they come to focus on him. Is that his essentially adoptive stepbrother. Jimmy Hoffa junior believes he did it right and and Jimmy Hoffa junior who is to this day the president of the teamsters union develops the idea that that that he had probably played a role and makes this argument to the FBI and deeply influences the way the FBI thinks about it so talk about the role of Jimmy Hoffa junior in the development of this narrative so James Hoffa and Chucky each other's James was born affect helped raise him because his father was always on the road and Chucky was at his wife and his family helped to raise the children but they were always rivals because this James was the straight Arrow he went to Michigan Michigan Law School. He wasn't involved in his father's business directly at least not the the central side of his business Chucky was the one that was close to Hoffa carbon capture sign at a distance to keep him out of trouble always a growing rivalry between them. throughout the sixties and seventies and this rivalry got more intense as Jimmy he became closer to off and chucky became less close lead up to the disappearance for a lot of reasons so in the disappearance happens James James immediately concludes the Chucky was involved and he concludes this because he calls around to ask what was that day there was a gap of time that perfectly if it's the time when Hoffa disappeared where no one can account for chunkys whereabouts he knows that Hoffa and Chucky have had a falling out and whatever other reasons he becomes convinced early early on that Chucky was involved they have a shouting match about it a couple of days after Hoffa disappears and so when he talks to the FBI and gives him the there his first report report about what he thinks happened and gives them. I low down on the case. He basically points the finger junkie and Ziang. I think he did it. He had all these reasons to do it. He was close to Jack Loney. He and my father had on a falling out can account for his time and he's acting weird and other saying there were good reasons to focus on Chunky but James's focus on him the FBI told me what really league lead them to focus on jockey and so that's how it happened. That's how the focus on him began again. They develop evidence to suggest that he might have been involved but they they basically glommed onto him in an intense way first of all because James born of the finger at him all right so as you start researching researching as you develop these relationships with these F. B. I. Agents. You go back over this history. Your instinctive doubts come. I'm to be reinforced by the FBI's own suspicions and eventually but nobody is just to be clear nobody in the world noses until this book comes out right right so this is all happening behind the scenes if I could just say something. This is one of the most troublesome things to me is the government for twenty years leaks things and let it be known that he's. The Guy this movie. The Scorsese movie is based on the early. FBI report and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen the movie yet but the book based on places Chucky in the car so that's that's all the doing of the government put out this theory which everyone believes and then the last twenty years they come to a different view and nobody in the world knows it so chuck is is left out there with this credible belief that he's the guy that did it and so you decide to try to broker understanding between Chucky and the FBI I were he will address their questions. Take a polygraph lenience guy and they will issue a letter saying there is no he is no longer I suspect and so tell us the story of the Near. The near non-target let are non subject letter that you almost got from the US Attorney's Office in Michigan. So one of the themes in the book is how unlucky Chucky is there was a review of the New York Times yesterday view where he said that Chucky has to be the unluckiest person person ever associated with organized crime and really the book is just relentless about his relentless bad luck you know being in the area where Hoffa disappeared if he didn't do do it being in the area where Hoffa disappeared driving a car of the son of the guy who is a leading suspect. That's bad luck if you didn't do it so they actually to be clarified a little bit the bureau starting in the nineties the chief investigator men name. Andrew plus approach chucky starting in the nineties and for many years said had. I don't think you're involved. This was not really in the public realm. I don't think you were involved. I'd like to clear your name. I need you to take a lie detector tests. If you take the tests and pass will exonerate you publicly so they started approaching him in the nineties. I found out about this in the two thousand two thousand two thousand twelve basically so I went to the Detroit I says is this offer still on the table and tell me about why you think this and they basically said we don't think he did it. We think it was impossible to be there and yes. We will send him a letter. You're saying you're not a target or subject. We don't think he did it. If you come in and do an interview take a Lotta detector tests check very old. He's got severe diabetes and he's not in great shape did this. When he was eight years old four hours he spent there. It wasn't just as agent. It was the entire. US Attorney's Office we had an official official letter from US Attorney's office promising this letter of exoneration. He goes through this grueling for our process. He tells the truth they determined that he told the truth and then they promised that this letter would be forthcoming because they determined he told the truth they didn't even require him to take to take a lot detector tests and in fact they didn't let him a lot of protests turned out even though they promised to be able to do so declared name and it turned out long complicated set of events that they you called us and they said we're on the verge of giving him the letter letters forthcoming we just had to clear with the FBI and I couldn't believe it. I spent many years at this point digging trying trying to clear him be convinced that he was didn't do it that the stain of of many decades was gonna be lifted an official way and I'd finally allowed myself to be convinced that this letter was forthcoming because they told us it was coming and then the rug was pulled underneath them again and it was pulled underneath him. I believe according to the people I talked to because that summer a couple of months after this interview happened there was a that's when they did this last dig and dig looking for Hoffler Maine's and it turns out they didn't find his remains in that was hugely embarrassing very expensive for the Bureau and after that happened the the political people in charge I believe in the US Attorney's office and the FBI agent in charge. It's pretty clear that even though everybody underneath them had promised this and they had signed off on it and even the everyone underneath and believe the Chucky had told the truth and didn't do it they decided why are we going to give this letter of his honoration is. GonNa make us look terrible and they stretch it out months and months Monte even though they promised it would happen in weeks and nine months after they promised finally said we're not going to give it to you and they have is no a good reason for doing so all right so I want to turn to the neural evaluation of Chucky which one of the things I love about about this book is that you clearly love the guy and yet the moral evaluation is really complicated because is at the end of the day the exculpatory story is he was a mobbed up teamster guy who did all kinds of things that was involved in all kinds of stuff is best friends are all mobsters. He's involved in some bad stuff. He was a great father and he wasn't involved evolved in the death of Jimmy Hoffa but one of the really interesting things about it is that he clearly knew more about the disappearance Jimmy Hoffa than when he was willing to tell anybody and you get a chunk of it out of him but at the end of the day you don't get all of it out out of him and I don't want to spoil the ending the buck but Schalke is pretty true to the America code and and so I want to break this into two two different areas one is how should we understand somebody. Who is you know the part mobster part union official part bodyguard for a kind of corrupt labor union genius. Es Really I've been Hoffa was a very impressive individual quite apart from the sort of Omerta stuff which will come to in a minute. How should we understand on the career of Chuckie O'Brien. It's a difficult question so I just need to say a word about America to answer that. May this this commitment to not talking about things. You're not supposed to talk to the code of Silence. It's no exaggeration to say that it ordered chunkys life life. It was the ordering principle of his life. Despite that was the owner principals life and his love for me and my brothers I really think those were and my mom. Those were the two ordering the principles of his life in the last forty years and before that with America and it's impossible for me to exaggerate talk about the origins of this why he I thought this and was born to him very early on he makes clear to me. There's some things I'm not gonNA tell. You can't talk about it. A lot of the dialogue in the book is about US skirmishing over what he can and can't tell me and him can telling me things. He wasn't quite supposed to and me trying to know where the line is so he he was very torn. Let me I just say before. I answer your question in the writing of this book about loving me wanting to tell me as he put it one time the book I love you very much and I want you to write a great book. I'm doing my best to tell you. The moral evaluation of him is that is difficult on the one hand by any objective standard he he has a completely different moral worldview than I do. He views the law essentially as corrupt institution. Here's the government is corrupt institution. He's not doesn't much care about legal compliance. He's committed many many many crimes in his life. He wasn't a mobster but because it wasn't a made man because he was half Irish but he has he's very close to a lot of many members of organized crime he has been his whole life and he's done a lot in in the service of those people and hopping in his criminal activities so looked at from that point of view you would say he doesn't do very well in the moral calculus to put it mildly and a lot of the dialogue in the book. I several times I asked him. You're how can you you're complaining about the government breaking the law but what about all of your multiple serial lawbreaking which you don't care about and his basic view is it was a consistent view. His basic view is they were coming after us and we had to do what we had survive and that's what I learned and that's what I believe. That's a self serving draft traffic Asian. There's truth to it but it's the self-serving so looked at from that perspective. I think anyone would have to say doesn't doesn't doesn't fails the morality morality test. I came however of course writing this book became extremely close and I came to understand his role as a world view born in the city. It was what he was raised in. It's what he came to understand in value and especially his Ameritech amendment which I started off off thinking was just the self-serving Protective Gambit of a guy who commits crimes to not talk about things he doesn't WanNa talk about it. It wasn't that it was a genuine commitment to principle it was a principal that he admired that ordered his life and I have to say that a certain point in the book I came to admire it to talk about this at the end and the following sense at some point in the book. I didn't want him to tell me anymore and I didn't want him to tell me anymore because I knew that if I pushed him too far you he would violate this principle of honor that was so central to him and I didn't WanNa do that to him because he had this this principle of honor there was a thing he had held onto for forty five years the thing he had suffered her forty five years at of commitment to and so describe it as the last conversation tation we had about this when he basically said sorry son. I'm I'm not I'm not gonNa tell you what you want to know. Everything you WanNa know I described it. I said I was in office visit eccentric integrity and that's how I came to came to one of the other riveting features of this book which is actually a subject object about which I knew nothing is the personality of Jimmy coup. I've always I I mean I was kind of a kid when he disappeared and I've always thought of him says a Labor leader who was mostly mobster you portray him in a much more complicated light as kind of a Labor labor pioneer in some ways who was you know had complicated relationships with all kinds of different people. What what is the legacy of Jimmy Hoffa answer that I forgot to answer one thing about the moral calculus chucky that I wanted to add if I could and I'll talk about the legacy of Jimmy off the other. The thing that I think is important in forgo moral calculus is to other things for me. wait in the scales one. He was just an amazing father and and no matter what he did in his life those five years he gave to me and the love he showed me for the last fifteen were extraordinary and I can never judge him too harshly because of that. That's the first thing second thing is over the course of the last decade or early. I've worked in the government. I have really you become much less judgmental for a whole bunch of readings in part because of my faith but also chucky was right in the sense that lawbreaking is not something having limited to criminals mobsters and there was a lot of compromise going on inside the government pursuing these folks and it just I muddy the waters for me just a little bit in terms of the moral calculus of lawbreaking okay. Jimmy Hoffa's legacy so I have to say I spend a lot of if time learning about this man tacky and I talked about in a long time chucky doing better than anyone I did a lot of research on this and I came away against acknowledging that he broke every role in the book completely moral and did not believe in the law. He was completely opportunistic realistic. Everything for him was an instrumental exchange. What can you do for me. And what do I have to give you to do it and he didn't care who he was dealing with the mob for Hoffa. It was just another transaction. He was had no feel to the mob. It was just another transaction like the like the he would do business with Labor Union. The leader who had completely different ideologies Kava was pretty conservative as Labor leader and he would do business with people he despised because we'd help union you pay politicians to the his union help help us power so he was lawbreaker and he was completely amoral and he didn't give a damn on the other hand. I came to admire him enormously because just for so many reasons he came from nothing he he was incredibly impressive at his job. He was an outstanding Labor leader. Setting aside lied all the stuff that got him in trouble that ended up being fall. Would you can't send a side. He was just a master at negotiation and bargaining and figuring out how to use transportation network of the teamsters to grow the teams with legacy he was no one has ever been Jay. The hoover described what Bobby Kennedy did to Hoffa in a conversation with Richard Nixon as railroading and that's a fair description. No one has ever been subjected to what hopping subjected to so there. That's just I just really he was just address an extraordinary man many many ways and I try to paint a picture of him. His legacy is complicated. I think it's mostly a tragic legacy. There was an opportunity for Jimmy Hoffa and the teamsters in the fifties season sixties to leave the American labor movement in a completely different direction at about the time that Hoffa was at his rise the American labor movement was at its peak and was entering the period of long declined where it is today. HOFFA had the skills and he had the teamsters union which leverage over transportation networks could have a huge powerful leverage of labor against management and if the teamsters had not been kicked out of the AFL CIO for their corruption. It's just that Labour might I have gone completely different direction now. It's completely fanciful hypothetical or counterfactual ECAUSE HOFFA was this bad guy and even though he was great Labour leader in grew the teamsters the team for growing massively and his his members loved him because he brought home the Bacon at the same time he never could lead the Labor movement because he was corrupt. So the legacy there is a tragedy labor movement. The legacy of Bobby Kennedy taking off down is one of the very ironical because has bobby. Kennedy always thought he decapitated Hoffa that would get rid of mob control over the union in fact the opposite happened as I saw in the book. Hoffa actually kept the mob with bay he gave them loans but they were on his terms and he kept them out as much as he could and the opposite happened when Kennedy decapitated Hoffa the mob took over the teamsters and basically just infiltrated it so that's another legacy and I think a lot of the legacy I draw a tie between governmental abuses and overreach in the fifties and sixties Susan things that are going on today and I don't want to draw the analogy to sharply or to finally but Hoffa stands with all of his sins as the person against tune the government had the most overreach and it chasing me a little bit about that that element of governmental power when you say that are you including Martin Luther King in that or is that a different category because it was sort of politically motivated and not really fundamentally about getting crime what the government did the king was. I think on any measure worse because actually despite the just unbelievable illegal surveillance going on it gets it's can against the mob at the time and have a whole chapter on that. There are only a couple of instances. That government tried to hide hard what it did often termed surveillance. I think it probably available illegally a couple of times but it was never surveilling Hoffa and using the evidence against him to try to basically blackmail and get him to commit suicide nothing ever like that that said the government illegality against the mob in the fifties and sixties was far more extensive than ever against King and what they did to Hoffa in the fifties and sixties was really abusive along many dimensions that might not rise to what they did to king but in the aggregate was very very bad all all right so we got to wrap up but I want to one of the things that I learned about Jimmy Hoffa in reading the book that just floored me was at the actual period talent he was president of the teamsters union was really short. I mean it's nineteen fifty seven to nine hundred sixty four sixty seven sixty seven. He goes to prison so it's a ten year period and by the time he is president of the teamsters union. Bobby Kennedy already is obsessed with him and we continue continue to be obsessed with him in this weird way to this day yeah and so my question last just to wrap up. Why is it that a guy who who is for ten years. The president of the teamsters union and disappears in nineteen seventy five had such catch a hold on the public imagination that presidential can ultimately a presidential candidate and his brother are obsessed with them and forty years. It's after his death. We are still obsessed with him. Why don't we care so much about Jimmy Hoffa. I think the answer is two reasons one for those who were around in the fifties and sixties season early seventies. It's hard to exaggerate what a larger than life figure he was. He was an unbelievable presence and a spokesperson for Labour but also this defiant strangely attractive and important at the same time person who was caught up in this drama with the government over ten decades goes to prison undramatic terms comes out in dramatic terms and then disappear so Hafa himself was a huge figure in the fifties sixties early seventies. That's the backdrop. The second reason is simply because is he just disappeared. We don't have the truth is no matter what anyone says. We don't know what happened to him and he just last seen in the parking lot and then he just disappeared and the truth is nobody. I don't know what the government's evidence is but nobody knows what happened to it says if he just evaporated and there's not a single piece of evidence not one and I've looked at it all and talk to everybody about what happened to him that afternoon and where where and why he disappeared. We don't know if he got in a car on terribly who's hit over the head. No one saw anything and I think that given this larger than life figure who disappears completely under such dramatic circumstances and we just don't know what happened it allows everyone to pour in their own backgrounds owns and theories and and this is why to this the book came out a week ago and I've people will come out of the woodwork and got about a dozen emails and call saying I know we're Hav the is my cousin was involved. There's this farm outside of Detroit. You should look at let me come talk to you about it. It's amazing the obsession that persist but I think the reasons because nobody knows what happened. The book is in Hoffa's shadow stepfather a disappearance in Detroit and my search for the truth. Please join me in thanking jackals. Thank you becoming the law fair. PODCAST GAS is produced in cooperation with the Brookings Institution. Thanks this week to Jack Goldsmith and to the Texas Tribune Festival for hosting the event and providing US audio. Please share the law firm PODCASTS and Yosef Five Star Review on items can purchase offer t shirts hats mugs and more at the law fair store DOT COM. The podcast is edited by Gen Paci. How and our music is performed by Sophia Yan as always thank you for listening

Chuckie O'Brien Hoffa Chucky Tony Jacklin Hoffa Jimmy Hoffa Bureau Detroit Chuckie O'Brien Justice Department FBI United States official teamsters union Jack Loney Charles Chuckie US Attorney Turkey Professor Jack Goldsmith Brian Case America Texas Tribune
Hoffa, Chapter 2 - Mobbed Up

Shattered: White Boy Rick

25:27 min | 1 year ago

Hoffa, Chapter 2 - Mobbed Up

"How do you take down a criminal network? That's hidden in the shadows. How do you rescue child abuse victims? Who could be anywhere in the world hunting warhead a new investigative series from CBC PODCASTS and Norwegian newspaper Vga follows journalists and police on our global mission to expose the darkest corners of the Internet? What they discover shocks them? Listen to hunting warhead at CBC dot ca slash hunting wanting warhead or wherever you get shattered. Today's episode of shattered is brought to you by tubbies Detroit's original steak and cheese since nineteen nineteen sixty eight. We all carried sandbags in our car. Because you put down to three sticks of dynamite to put to sandbags against that blows at inward not outward. That's Joe Franco in an interview. From one thousand. Nine hundred ninety three he was a teamster who worked closely with Jimmy offer offer for over thirty years farming the establishments of employers reluctant to deal with the. teamsters WANNA Franko specialties. He says there were certain and things Hoffa would never ask his agents to do for those things he would turn to the Mafia. I would say that ninety five percent of those in house but the bad stuff was about five percent of dollars but somebody in the hospital that was in house blowing up a truck. That's not going to hurt. Nobody that was is in house. That's all in house. That's all labor but the other stuff that would be considered heavy duty then he would go outside and via the bad stuff. What's bill through killing somebody from from? WD either in Detroit and Graham meaning. My name is Steve Kerr Sheila listening to shatter season. Four Hafa episode two mobbed up you Lopez an extra. That's a talion talion for our thing or this thing of ours. It's had members of the Italian mafia sometimes refer to themselves the roots of La Cosa Nostra MC stretch back to nineteenth century Sicily. Its members began immigrating to the United States and Canada over one hundred years ago and yes La Cosa nostri still exist today. Nowhere near the force they were in the fifties and sixties and seventies but They exist in the shadows. They thrive off on in the background. Like they always have journalist Scott Bernstein. They're very immersed in white collar society they own a lot a legitimate businesses. They still control most of the illegal gambling they still extort and shakedown people in their community. Mostly mostly Italian business owners and what. They have a role in wholesale narcotics trafficking. Bernstein Arnstein says the Detroit. Mafia family still active today are some of the same families. Jimmy Hoffa work with throughout his career. And who may have had something to do with his disappearance families like the Tokyo's Zora lease and the Jack Aloni's you can trace their involvement in the mob. Back to pre prohibition era or Detroit. Now I'm about to give a lot of names and you're not going to remember all of them but I want you to appreciate the long path carved from today back to the roots roots of organized. Crime and Detroit gambling. loansharking a little bit of bootlegging even before prohibition set in and Prostitution Dabble in their political local corruption naturalization scams and you had you know you have a picture of early organized crime in the first two names of note from this era are Joe Zarrella and Bilko. The Tokoza really group came up under the GIANOLA brothers. who were the mob leaders of of Detroit from around nineteen fourteen to nineteen nineteen but in one thousand nine hundred nineteen the first cross town mob? War erupted the main factions. Were the GIANOLA and a lieutenant of there's a guy named Giovanni Bloody John by tally. He wanted to oust his former bosses. The war lasted about a year at the end of the day. Both John Vitality and both Genoa brothers were dead so the Tacos and the rallies who wants drivers and bodyguards. It's for the GIANOLA brothers. Step up and take over the GIANOLA territory on the east side for the most part at least for a while. The city's crime factions all got along. You had the east side game. The westside gang the Cork town game the Lizard gain the river gang and the purple game but then becomes the cross town mob war of nineteen thirty so the Cross town mob war split in the city between the east side and the West side the east side gang was the victors Thursd Dozer Alien Black Bill. Toko defeated been chat Lamar. They assassinated him in his mansion in Hamtramck to control the city in themselves and brought everyone under one banner to the entire city all the individual bootlegging groups and combine them into one organization which became known the combination or the Partnership and Detroit's Modern Day Mafia. In which Hoffa would become entangled was born in the mid one thousand nine hundred thirties. Jimmy Hoffa was a star recruiter for the small. But growing teamsters union the battles that teamsters were engaged in with management mm-hmm and with rival unions sometimes turned ugly so Hoffa turn to the mob. But it's not like they're listed in the yellow pages Hoffa had away in her her name was Sylvia Pagano. She was a mafia paramour. A aspiring actress model that liked to date Italian mobsters. She was married to a a gangster in Kansas City. By the name of Sam Saraceno. They called him the injure at some point. That relationship didn't work out and Soviet Picano circulated to Detroit and began dating mob figures in Detroit. I know that she dated Frankie Three Fingers Coppola. She dated Jimmy Hoffa she dated Tony Jack Aloni Lonnie and that was kind of a way that they all met not all. Investigators agree that Hossan Agawam had an affair but at the very least they knew each other very well and Pagano. was the link between Hossa and guys like Tony Jackett. Loney and Jack Loney is assigned signed to Hoffa At some point in the nineteen forties as kind of his Goto and Jack Loney becomes his main point man and the person that is relaying messages to Hoffa from the mob in the person that Hoffa's relaying messages from the teamsters to the mob Through as well with the Mafia at his back Hoffa is able to stabilize and grow the teamsters space. They weren't nobodies but they weren't the somebody's if it became until they partnered up with the mob and built this Monolithic Empire that you know controlled American commerce. They didn't reach that point of this global domination of labor union activity until they attach their trailer to organized crime was with that muscle behind them and that reach that allow them to grow this thing to massive proportions under Jimmy Hoffa. Jimmy Hoffa became one of the most recognizable people in the world in one thousand nine hundred forty. Six HOFFA was promoted to head up Detroit local to ninety nine and he made a fast climb from there. He took over the Joint Council. He took over the Michigan Conference of teamsters he took over the central states division of the teamsters union and he became National Vice President of the Union in nineteen fifty two under Dave Beck who was president at the time by the Early Nineteen Fifties Hoffa was traveling all over the country. teamsters business he spent a lot of time in New York work where the teamsters hired him personal driver a kid from Canada named Marvin Elkin. Hey Good morning. This is Steve Kerr show in Detroit. Is this Marvin. It's Marvin and appreciate very much. You making time to talk with us today. I appreciate being here. Thank you very much. How was it that you I got hooked up with being Jimmy Hoffa's driver? Here's what happened. I went to New York in nineteen fifty two as a young kid. I got some work done as doing some boxing. I had to help myself about so through a contact. I got a job as a busboy. Boy at the Copa Cabana. which was owned by Barbara Walters father new wealthiest? And as I understand it. You get called over to this table for a conversation. What was that conversation? The conversation was this Tony Salerno called only over Tony. Salerno was a mobster. The genovese crime family and he's dead. We spoke to Lou. Walters Wednesday is your last day here. I said why I'm crying so hard to do. A good job says as of Monday. You are going to be the driver for Mister Jimmy Jimmy Hoffa. I didn't know Mr Hoffa by new reputation. I knew it was a tough guy and I knew he was a guy that you could be in trouble with. If you've got in trouble with them I said to him. I don't WANNA be Mr Hoffa's driver. His answer was nobody's asking you you the first time that you meet Jimmy Hoffa offer. I understand you pick them up Laguardia Airport and you say Good Morning Mister Hoffa. What was that exchange like? I was terrified. I hate it as best I could. I saw Mr half come out. I knew where he was coming out. I had his picture. I drove the car up to him. I opened up the door and I said Good Morning Mister Hoffa he said are you Marvin. I goes yes sir. He said very good answer remember. It's easier Mr Hoffa or shirt. That's how you call me Mr Hall Forrester get into the car. I drove the car and he should go over there. He told me where to drive. I drove the car to a spot. Two guys came out and they got in the back of the car and he said drive the car to spot to turn the engine off I did. She has no Marvin turnaround. I turned it around. Both guys opened their coats to show me they were carrying carrying guns. He says listen to me. Marvin there's rules. And there's cardinal rules. The rules are like this. I don't WanNa hear rainstorm snowstorm thunderstorm. I don't want to hear any of that. I must never be kept waiting when you pick me the APP. You must be on time if you're not on time either. All yellow you or these boys will be to up. That's the rules. Cardinal Art new rules is this I expect one hundred percent loyalty one hundred percent obedience. And what you hear in. This car stays in this car. If that doesn't happen you'll be around the next morning. Do we understand each other. I goes yes sir we do for the next four years. Marvin spent countless hours driving Hoffa and his associates around New York City. Mister Hoffa offer had two great passions in life his union which he really did love and want to do the best or and he was a great family. Man Dan. Mr Hoffa didn't drink. He didn't smoke. He didn't swear in front of people every morning that Cadillac had to be watched and check for bugs and our police officer that came with the machine and check to make sure there were. No you know what I mean by bugs or do you don't mean bugs on the windshield. I'm guessing exactly. I don't mean Joe after we checked at seven. Am I ably pick up Mr Hoffa and we would start today. There was a good reason. HOFFA had elkin check the car for boggs every morning. HOFFA had established relationships with a number of characters suspected of illegal activity. And not just in Detroit all over the country the FBI was watching watching and listening. Hey shattered listeners. Jeremy Allen here I hosted seasons one three of this show. That's not what I'm here to talk about. Steve mentioned at the end of last week show. We're trying something brand new this season. It's a membership program and we're calling it shattered plus you can sign up to hear bonus episodes of shattered this week every week of our new season. This bonus episode is our entire interview with Marvin. Can't we just met in the first half of episode to his life story stretches far beyond his relationship with Hoffa to hear interview with Marvin. The Weasel Elkin yes. That's his nickname in. Yes it's because he did become an FBI informant not for information related to Hoffa though so just so you know here. Marvin story go to our website shattered podcast dot com and click on the shattered plus link. Your membership is what's going to enable us make more seasons of shattered. Thanks that's the sound of Detroit's original original steak and cheese being prepared freshly grilled for you. Warm yourself up with a fresh grilled tubby steak and cheese sub today tasting his believing tubbies tried to original steak and cheese since nineteen sixty nine. toppy says everything you need to make your party. Amazing Tubby sub shops offers catering packages for your office. Parties Earth Day parks special events. Enjoy Monster Party subs party platters salads wings just bake gourmet cupcakes and a whole lot more tubbies cater your next party so you can have more fun. Visit TUBBIES DOT com. They're all the details. What really set off the alarms for the feds was? When they discovered Hoffa had placed the teamsters pension fund in the hands of a guy named Allen Dorfman he was the stepson of Paul Dorfman a Labor racketeer from Soco's waste handlers union with no insurance experience at all Allen Dorfman created the Union Casualty Insurance Company and got the contract from the teamsters my view of the way this work and you know nobody leaves a written record David Whitworth Labor historian but went off was coming up up? He needs the support of teamsters in various centres of the teamsters union power so that would be New York and that would be Chicago and to the extent tat a fair proportion of the teamster leaders in Chicago are associated with organized crime or dominated by organized crime depending on how you want to phrase it then he needs to. He needs to have the support of the outfit. And the way to get the support of the outfit is to get is to provide Paul Dorfman the stepson with ties to the to the teamsters pension fund and then ties to the teamsters benefit. The Pension Fund accumulated ten ten million dollars in its first year of operation. It was the largest private pension fund in the country in the nineteen fifties and so with the approval of Jimmy Hoffa Allen Allen Dorfman began making loans to mob connected individuals with no collateral loans at low or no interest in the entire. Las Vegas Skyline was built on pension fund loans given out by the teamsters central states pension was a piggy it was a mob piggyback from what I gather my research is a pretty easy process. They would tell me what this loan and they would get that loan. Wouldn't there would be no vetting process so you else. In the one thousand nine hundred fifties and sixties and seventies all of the the the casinos in Vegas belong to one my family or the other so Detroit had the frontier than the Detroit had the Aladdin Kansas City at Tropicana Tocado at the Stardust Cleveland had the desert in Essentially Taufa traded money for power are nineteen sixty three sixty percent of the teamsters pension fund was invested in risky real estate ventures ventures and it would be a quid pro quo or hoffa would provide them access to the pension fund and through the Pension Fund. They could take out loans as well as has get jobs through the teamsters union be put into leadership post put into post where you are able to bid rig were able to create slush funds. Were able to shake down other members of the Union former assistant. US Attorney Key. Corbett describes our classic mob shakedown shakedown. If you're a small trucking company and You get approached by somebody uses. We'd like to unionize your trucking company. And you say well it's going to cost me X.. The number of dollars and then somebody says well if you hire this labor relations management company which may have some ties to organized crime. They may be able to keep you from getting unionize. Swallow up the Labor Union Management Company. And they say well you know you pay US ten thousand dollars a month. You're not gonNA have a problem with the Union and you compute that it's GonNa cost you. Twenty thousand dollars with unionized at ten thousand dollars to pay off the Labor management consulting firm. Well who'd you hire you hire them. And through through their connections they make sure the union effort goes away money there were always rowers office connection with the mob and these multimillion dollar our loans but he remained a hero to the rank and file he created health and welfare pension programs. Better job conditions more money for people who never had had it before he brought up wages by more than fifty percent in less than a decade. Not long after Hoffa put the Union Casualty Realty Insurance Agency and his friend Allen Dorfman in charge of the pension fund a Congressman from Michigan. A guy named Clare Hoffman started sniffing around the teamsters. I Hoffman along with a Kansas. Republican win. Smith formed a House subcommittee. They want to look at the teamsters health and Welfare Fund while while testifying Alan and his Stepdad. Paul Dorfman invoke their Fifth Amendment right over one hundred times during testimony win Smith abruptly. Roughly gets up. He leaves the hearing room to go. Take a long distance phone call when he comes. Back Smith announces. The committee. Investigation is over. When asked why Smith points to the ceiling and says the pressure comes from a way up there and I just can't talk about it more specifically Hoffa's people hired as an attorney like the basically the Republican Party leader of of Kansas like they made a deal with someone who was politically powerful? They're not a bribe per se. But suddenly he was there attorney and then the notion is that guy contacted went Smith and said now. It's time to stop the hearings. Jimmy Hoffa had alluded government investigators. But he was mad. He suspected that somebody inside the Detroit. TEAMSTER headquarters had had been informing on him so he reached out the guy. Who knew all about wiretaps John Deere? Gordie is better known as Johnny deal one of the most notorious. Oh yes mobsters in New York City back in the nineteen thirties. The Oh did some time at sing. Sing for extorting trucking companies. When he got out he got into the garment? Industry is a union officer. That's how he got to know. Jimmy Hoffa deal hooked Hoffa up with somebody who would bug the phones of Hoffa staff that way he could keep closer tabs on now. I grew up in New York. I never met Johnny deal but I came to find out that he and his family actually lived in our neighborhood hood. When I was a kid I went to school with one of his sons and never thought much about the awards but I got to admit? I often wonder about the six or eight black limousines parked in front of their house once a month. I thought they just had fancy parties. I never asked. I found out some years later. Who the head of that family was? Johnny Johny deal so notorious in the nineteen fifties. A character in a famous movie is based on him. Bill go get your Loda now. I'm challenging president from your uncle on. The waterfront is a classic starring Marlon Brando as a morally conflicted documenting. You don't understand Democrat class. Contaminant the evil union boss. Johnny friendly is based on Johnny deal. You'll come from green green point you don't work in on. The waterfront is a great great movie but Johnny Deals Real Life was even more nefarious than Hollywood could depict. In nineteen fifty five Hafa help bring a number of of new york-based teamster locals into the Union and those locals were chartered by Johnny deal. These were shady outfits known as paper locals. Typically there were no actual workers just friends family and often criminal associates of deal. Paper locals were often used for extortion. Abortion fraud bribes or to keep a real union locked out of a business in the case of the deal locals they were also allegedly used to swing votes in a critical teamster election toward a union. Rally Back Jimmy Hoffa HOFFA's ties to do attracted a lot of unwanted attention especially after what happened to a Labor journalist late one night in the spring of Nineteen fifty six and he says I was attacked because of the racketeers because of my crusading efforts arts center and they won't stop me. You know they can. They can blind me but I can still go after them with my typewriter that attack which will get into in the next episode galvanized the Senate and a young hungry. Bobby Kennedy go after Hoffa and the teamsters in a big way the Jimmy Hoffa ever talk about the Kennedys. Talk about Bobby Kennedy. He spoke about Bobby Kennedy all the time with great hate. He thought he came from a very bad family and he was raised where everything he's thought with right and they went way beyond politics coming up in the next episode sort of shattered the Kennedy Hop bloodfeud nothing. Admitting I don't perform any of them I don't the top of the international dooming. Shattered is produced an edited by Jeremy Allen. Anzac Rosa to help support this show which took US months and months to may become a member of shattered plus. It's just three ninety nine a month or twenty five dollars for the year here. How you're going to beat that? Go to our website shattered. PODCAST DOT COM click on the shattered plus link. You'll get access to bonus interviews like the one we we did this week with Marvin the Weasel Elkin. The Story Marvin tells about being threatened by gangster. Meyer Lansky is worth the price of admission by itself in the the Jewish language. There's a saying called. Cut Ish it saying for the departed. He says if you don't get knocked out in the first four. Have somebody say kite headache for. You are becoming shattered plus member. You also get access to this season's episodes without ads. Thanks we'll talk to you next time

Mister Jimmy Jimmy Hoffa teamsters union Jimmy Hoffa Detroit Hoffa Marvin Elkin Jimmy Hoffa Allen Allen Dorfma Mister Hoffa HOFFA Union United States New York City teamsters health and Welfare F teamsters pension fund New York Michigan Conference of teamste Allen Dorfman Joe Franco Pension Fund
Merry Christmas Wiretappers

Gangland Wire

12:48 min | 1 year ago

Merry Christmas Wiretappers

"You are listening to gangland wire hosted by former Kansas City police intelligence unit detective Jerry. Merry Christmas all you wire-tappers out there. His a special little merry Christmas episode very short. I just want to let you guys know. Oh how much I appreciate all of you. Who have listened to me and let me know you listen to me and sent me some money every once in a while and bought my movie and you're he's still buying my now? You're buying my new movie brothers against brothers and I've got a lot of good reports back on that like people really like I tell you the truth. I'm really proud of it but not really really. I'm not really here to do commercial Just want to let you know got a Christmas present for doing a couple already. Done a couple of podcast August episodes. And I'M GONNA release very close around Christmas Day. I think maybe one is said the twenty third and maybe on the twenty fifth or twenty six. I can't remember I have to go go back and look but anyhow You know man you get tired of all those rallies they're talking. You can just go outside or go out to the garage and lineup cigar earn. Go out on the patio and SIP on your drink and listen to a little known story that was revealed by Sammy. The boettger Bano when when he turned on Gaudy and the whole organization This was one that they didn't see common. They knew it was out there the FBI US attorney knew this was out there and Sammy. The bull really locked in for them. They had been picking up on. The wiretap are actually they had been picking up on a hidden microphone there in and then apartment was up above the rain night. Social Club that there was some guy who was a policeman or a lawyer or a golfer. Or something you know. Oh and he was a cousin to somebody in might be somebody named Pete And and they started and this guy was talking to Godley They couldn't I forget who it was. And and you know and no idea and you know what's interesting. Is Sammy the Bulls and one that really put this guy in the trick bag in the end when he turned in the first information that he related the guy of course not directly to God but through a An an underling of goddess on the first information that he relayed was about several hidden microphones were in businesses owned by Sammy. Bogus Bano so. There's no among thieves for sure but in as is a bonus in the second episode this story. I have a man who is originally from Kansas City and interesting guy. I worked the case on a MAC in the nineties. Actually I didn't personally work. It was supervised the surveillance team that helped the FBI worker case on him. And he's now out and and and we connected up here lately. Atlan in he met Gatti's informant the one that they're trying to figure out who he was so hard in worked with him in the bakery in the federal penitentiaries that that John was in John Saint John's name so this is quite a story. It's I'm GonNa tell you how the guy got started talking to Godley and what his motivation was. It appears like a and now you know he talked to God. These people say he's talking to talking to God. He talked to God's people and they passed on the word. The Mount. Wiretaps in hidden microphones out. There who was informant when indictments were being handed down. They defied jurors and mob trouser. They could maybe go out and try to bribe. Bribe somebody and anything else they want to know. When he was making some pretty decent money gotti adding more on a retainer would payment up to five figures of was really the juicy piece of information And then continued down the story. How this intrepid? FBI agent practically were out a pair of shoes or we used to say gonNA solve a case. You gotTA expense shoe leather on it. That made you gotta get out at Bang on doors. You GotTa talk to people you got trying to find witnesses. You gotTA follow clues wherever they go and and not. Just sit back in your office and it may be tried to call informed or or look at some video or something you know you gotta get their bang on doors and hit the streets. It's and he solved. The mystery of who this man was because even Sammy the Baldin. No he was but when they put it all together then guy ends up in the penitentiary with my friend. Don Say John You know as an aside here in Kansas City. We had a couple of different guys. I worked intelligence that we knew too close to my guys and you know in both cases this is we're able to set them up and Cottam running license numbers in the EH. DMV Computer for an address and so they didn't really lasts along they didn't they didn't last too long after that I actually did go ahead and retire. He I seem every once in a while. I've seen him a couple times a day. You always gives me this fish. I look okay I know you are dude It and he says yeah. I know you are too but we never say a word about it now on another note Finish off with. There's little shorty that just make Christmas episode of because I'm leaving. I'm heading south man. I'm heading South Tomorrow With my beautiful wife is done. Brian Song says you know just lied those nylons and home. Honey it lead them pretty legs. Short is hot down where we're going. Of course it won't really be that I would be much more than it is here I just listened to another mafia pied gas today when I went over the gym and went on the treadmill have been doing. Exercise has been spending too much behind time behind the mic back in front of the computer and this friend of mine's got Bernstein who has The mob blog called Geisha report has a mob a podcast. It's kind of like ours here. Original gangsters name of highly. Recommend it. You know there's very few of us out there. They're doing just this. There's a lot of our crime to grind bod- Gazza lot of missing persons to grant bond gas Rape and kidnapping and sodomy in in all those kinds of crimes very few that focus on the complicated schemes aims of the Mafia and the and the convoluted things they get into the complex organizations. They have in and try to enlighten and educate people about that and educate it myself and and like my friend Cam. Educate him about this to. He's a great researcher. Too by the way Cam I if you listen to this I am say anything. I really appreciate eight. What you've done for me over the last few months because I was so tied up with all this Mob Film Festival and tradition my movie rather against brother. So I appreciate it Anyhow Scott has this as a Scott. has this new podcast called original gangsters. He didn't put him not quite as often as I do. And I don't really feel bad about you know promoting somebody else's mop podcast is. I think there's more than enough to go around But he gets into the real story he has sources in law enforcement in the mom And this one listened to today was an interview with the son of Jimmy Hoffa Stepson Jackie. O'Brien of course you know. That's not right now because of the Irishman and you know if you saw that film that that film indicated that Jimmy Stepson this Jackie. O'Brien was a man who drove drove Hoffa to his death in the this is the steps in and the Stepson. That Jackie O'Brien had steps on. Who wrote this book the neighbors Jack Goldsmith Turns Ao that? The title of the book is in Hoffa Shadow battle. So Jackie. O'Brien grew up in his shadow and Jack Goldsmith grew up in Jackie. O'Brien shadow and you could tell by listening to him. There's a lot of of Respect and love for the stepfather for in both these cases. Really interesting if you think about it. And and Jackie O'Brien you know. His is that real father supposedly was a Kansas City. Gangster who was a AKA minor gangster. I guess it would be this On that just has lost his name. It's not probably not that important. He was a bodyguard to Charlie Benagiano. Who is one of our mob bosses in the thirties? All the way up to the fifties Charlie Benicio became famous in nineteen fifty one because himself and one of his other Bob. His political the political end of the Kansas City Crime Family Charlie Gargano and Charlie Benagiano got killed at the democratic. I Wore Democratic Club. Love is really famous. You've probably seen the image down my APP. it's Smiling picture of Harry Truman. Looking out over a dead body laying on the floor so what these guys were killed in nineteen fifty one and and really stirred up because it nationwide stir and the one of those commissions the Got Again think of the name of one of the one of those commissions that goes round investigates the Congressional Commissions. It goes round investigates. The mob came came became said he primarily because of that the murder of the two Charlie's on an interview in this Son of Stepson. Jackie O'Brien Jack Goldsmith he's a really bright guy he's a he's a lawyer he worked for the. US Attorney's office For quite a while and his career and he he researched his bookie looking for seven or eight years he had He revered his father but he was really unflinching when he described. Jackie O'Brien relationship with Hoffa and with members of the Detroit mob Black Veto Jack. Loney who you know. He indicates probably the man on this deal. He doesn't really by the Irishman story that Jackie O'Brien drove his stepfather to the Murder scene of. I don't know I didn't really by either seem kind of strange. I guess you know if you listen to that uncommon. I did on this. But anyhow the The Radio Los Amount of the what. The Amazon thing says in office in Hopper Shadow although the author tells the moving story of how he reunited with his stepfather after he disowned him and then set out to unravel why the twentieth century's most persistent mysteries. And what Jackie. O'Brien role was in in in along the way Mr Goldsmith Explores Hoffa's rise to the top of the teamsters union and his fault and he kinda cast a little a new light on Some of the surveillance state date that we've gotten into and on the architects of Hoffa's disappearance and heart rending complexity and explain some of the really heart rending complexity complexities can't say that word and complexities of love and loyalty. So it's a great podcast. I really recommend if you're interested in that whole office story which I think everybody is recommend you do that. I'm GonNa end this now Again Merry Christmas and happy New Year in Look for my little Christmas presents presence and and another thing. I'll have another special one atom doing several after those two guys stories. I'm doing I'll probably skip a week at New Year's and then I've got another Scott Gotti story story and I'm going to be on a live new show from something called newsmax newsmax dot com. They have live news it. I don't know I can't until what it is I've never I'm not I don't have cable. TV I just use Cutback cut my cable. I just use the APPS for the different Amazon Aladdin's Antenna TV. So a look up that newsmax and they have live shows all the time and this can be on January sixteenth. Seventy eight and they're going to have have me on is a is a mob expert So I'll have a podcast telling another gotti story or two because that whole life podcast is going to be about God. Enough had Brush up a little bit and then a little bit about they're gonNa ask me questions about Ms Thirteen and other You know Mexican cartels in the new modern transnational organized crime. I'm Gangsta. I've got a brush up on them a little bit too. So no commercials Just stuff coming out of my mouth today. And I'm not even GONNA at this. Edit is so if you notice I do make mistakes every now and then and then I dread edit amount as best I can Good good evening wear diapers using provided by our good friend and Superfan from Portland Oregon. Casey McBride Thanks Casey

Jackie O'Brien Kansas City FBI Jimmy Hoffa Sammy Jack Goldsmith Scott Gotti Godley Amazon Stepson Pete And US attorney Jimmy Stepson Jerry Portland Oregon Social Club Bulls Charlie Benicio
Jack Goldsmith: Live at Politics and Prose

Slate's Live at Politics and Prose

1:01:06 hr | 1 year ago

Jack Goldsmith: Live at Politics and Prose

"This is live at politics and prose AH program from slate and politics and Prose Bookstore added to welcome Jack Goldsmith to politics and prose celebrating his newest longtime president of the International Brotherhood of teamsters since Goldsmith recounts how his childhood affection for O'Brien became more complicated was moved to uncover the truth about O'Brien Hoffa the mob the winning and then set out to unravel one of the twentieth century's most persistent mysteries Headed the office of Legal Counsel in the George W Bush administration awesome he has also authored tear presidency as well as powering constraint so please thank you very much to politics and prose for hosting this event thanks to you all for coming my tale begins in June of nineteen seventy five and I was twelve years old name was Charles Jackie O'Brien I did not have my birth father was not a terribly good father and he they got married in June of seventy five and I had known him for about six months before then I thought he was the greatest twelve years old six months after my mom married him front that was then called the Mockus Red Fox to this day there's this latest to forty five and the next thing we know he had his last phone call at three thirty may know was in the fifties and sixties one of the most well known ability he was an extraordinary Labor leader for the teamsters and he was also this huge large figure and he basically went to jail in aim the presidency of the teamsters win he was disappear probably had taken over control the teachers you much more than when he was president and they didn't want him back is lot of evidence of that but no evidence of what happened that day really disappearing until the year before he disappeared he met Hoffa when he was nine years old and he was by was Hoffa's illegitimate son because they were so close and they were just It was a circus the Hoffa disappearance was a circus I I was in the middle of it because I was this twelve year old kid who's stat new step dad who revered aspect to be to be briefed there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that pointed towards him being involved of the leading Detroit mobster who thought to have organized the hit Hoffa's hair so the next five years of my life was basically There teamsters union his union identity I came to revere the House I thought they were wonderful gentleman and I believe my stepfather when I he was my father and we were very close to Hoffa stuff which is out of control and the government was all over him the O'Brien and Jimmy Hoffa into Google you will find that that's the person who who when I got to college I read books about the Hoffa disappearance League's Ist it turned out my uncle Tony my uncles Tony were violent in high school also I came to worry that maybe my it came to revel in his making fun of education my values started be it won't be such a great thing to be an attorney especially if I have any ambitious it'd make very long story Short I cut chucky out have nothing to do with him I convinced myself at the time that he was a bad person that I was and it was brutal and hurt him quite a lot in ways that I didn't appreciate at the time I got out of law school I was working for Jay Harvey Wilkinson on the Fourth Circuit and the first thing he asked me to do sure I put down all my aliases I pointed out that I was my name was Jack O'Brien from the age of thirteen about a week later three two or three FBI agents come to Charlottesville where iron bells inside the FBI and they thought that they had access basically grilled me for a day very unexpected to me I didn't expect this at all and I thought I was I it's them that I didn't have my values and I convince them that I had separated myself from Turkey and I got the tossed chucky under the bus it it was from a career perspective it was a due to the writing this book and what it's about it's about what I'm telling you now is how legal counsel a job I never would have had never would have gotten had not done what I did to Chucky Twenty Gratien and to make another long story short and they're all sorts of problems in the program some of you may remember and I'm reading along and their two citations Hafa versus turned out it was a case involving Chuckie O'Brien when I was in Highschool Chucky at always I didn't believe him and I never knew about this case it turned out that was mostly Gli cleaning up decades of surveillance abused by the office of a mob person that he was close to so this was shocking to eight of my life comes back and just came rushing back to me the things that Chucky uh-huh some chucky basically in the large was right about the sixties I went through a lot of soul searching about my relationship with Chucky in my own virtue and an under appreciated his virtues and I appreciate it his situation air and but I couldn't really those charges either so I sympathize with him on that front but I didn't really appreciate it until I have my own children and when I began all of these reasons came together to lead me to ask for His forgiveness in his chair and I turned to him and I said I was wrong to do what I did to you twenty I didn't even have time we'd had a couple of days together it was like the good old days dyson I understand why you did what you did and that was it over the next seven years excuse me and over the course of these I didn't have any evidence and I didn't know anything about the case but just the way he talked about it in the way he revered Hoffa said I'm sure whatever I find whatever I discover about what happened in the Hoffa case he hesitated he hesitated at first I thought he would jump at this to have me other figure to him so he was basically being charged with patricide and it was terrible and life in the teamsters union and it just basically destroyed him you're so I told him I would do my best to try he finally came round and said Okay only the truth he looked at me with his eyes scans early FBI report about the case and it referred to Chucky as all of his friends say he's a notorious instead of challenges that my my main witness that I'm trying to clear an is unreliable nineteen seventies theories so many claims and counterclaims sifting I became friends with many of them I looked at thousands of pages of government cert- probably thousands of hours more than a thousand certainly talking about Sunni straight sometimes not answer usually try to deflect but over time he told me quite a of clearing him from the charge that he was the person who drove it to his death the government didn't talk about or didn't know about early in the case that developed chucky was not the person who drove all the to his death this is not known in public the case the case as it's known in the public today is much different from the case of the government talkie along the way and I think I succeeded in that but along the way fortunately the decline of Labor which he also represented the rise of the mob in the twentieth century do both diminish Labor and a lot about law enforcement and the FBI as I say became very close with and we became friends we spent twelve sessions together hours thing about it none of the FBI agents stopped assessing about it they still talk about and the the government did not treat chucky well chucky was a man who the public narrative that the government leaked on Chucky didn't match up at all with what the government person who did it to try to get him to try to pressuring him into talking in the hopes after the government figured out that he wasn't the person who did it the government accused the public eye of this thing and there was a mechanism for that there's no mechanism for putting that genie back in in two thousand thirteen. The government approach Chucky I approach them they approached Chucky invert interview tell the truth and he would get this letter chucky was he told the truth about everything and they agreed that he told the truth about everything it's and then let her never came and the letter never came because the political convinced for a whole bunch of reasons that I talk about in the book that he didn't do it they didn't give him the letter they also said in the introduction it's also history because this intersected very much with Hoffa's the transcripts of recordings of illegal bogs in the early nineteen sixty s and late nineteen chucky referred to as backup I e the Justice Department wrote memoranda in secret saying it's sixties it finally leaked out there was reform I tell the story of that but most extraordinarily and three or four different ways there is a connection between Hoffa went through and what I what I was to more to more of them and I'll stop one is there lots of historical ironies they're talking about Abi Kennedy who would after half a very very aggressively crossing several lines the teamsters members from this horrible person at the top of the union I can but the irony was that in his super aggressive the memo about Labor corruption really got going the late fifties and sixties you can see it if he can get rid of Hoffa to Kabaka from the top of the Teacher's Union that will get rid of the regarded the pension fund when he went away his very weak successor Frank Fitzsimmons for something that also Kennedy did not expect the third irony is that finally and I told this story as well finally led the government with some tools congress had given also that these amazing memo's internal department memos when they talk about my God sized and this time starting with Hoffa disappearance that led the government to so the mob miscalculated is I quote one of the items in the case if Jimmy Hoffa were still on the and this is the hardest topic to summarize disclosure about fathers and sons and he lost his father when he was seven years old his dad took off because he I figure he was he did it on his own chunkys father figures were Jimmy Hoffa but Jack Alania was the person that was behind at least involved in killed which and finally about my relationship with Turkey of how I looked when I was twenty and my respect is then and how it looked differently after I've been and I'm getting pretty old to and books reflection on that and some of the complications in our relationship book by do good read my question is you talked a lot about hold everything he knew that he would have gotten that letter I think it was some Barbara Mackay Equator they wanted to clear him because they hoped if they cleared him this was their theory to me and to condition the bay at every question that he asked I don't I mean a big part of the book I didn't mention this Chucky I'm family and his mother schooled him on Omerta the code of silence uncle his desire to help me write this truth will book that he knew I needed to write and doc I thank you for being here and putting stuff about fathers and sons live in Arkansas when your mom met Chuckie O'Brien and how did that happen and then second parties says basically he was the one who killed Hoffa and what do you think you think he's about a lot of things about fathers and sons but it's also about forgiveness we're talking what I learned about that but the main com made feedback I've gotten from my parents and the importance of forgiveness in those relationships and so I'm just a chucky was living in Detroit and my mom was actually living in Florida but with it was a very consequential woman amazing woman in Labor in mob circles and the about Hoffa call the Irish men which is based on a book called I heard you paint houses criminal a serious criminal and Shirin gave a confession that turned into the basis there's more to say about it but there's absolutely zero evidence to support it no but it's a very cleverly written book and now it's the basis for a motion picture so and I haven't read the seen the movie yet but in the book he has chucky picking up offer because that's what the conventional I suspect the Scorsese movie is going to be more influential than my wonder how this grenade landing in the middle of your family of the Hoffa I was twelve and my brothers were seven and she had mental health problems before this event and grant grand jury which she actually didn't have to attend because of her mental health problems that about those five years this is seems impossible was happiness because sports events we did everything together I don't remember it I am sure I've suppressed a again information about information that turned out to be truthful about the realized was true right but you had inside information to learn that it was her dagger hoover the FBI Director finally became advant convinced for a whole bunch of reasons in the late fifties that survey `lance to gather intelligence on mom figures and this started in the late fifties has the government when the government revealed all this illegal they confessed heir to the court they said what they thought legal basis was they said they'd stopped doing these things out that Turkey's case was one of those he got lucky because of this of these and one of the many things I learned in writing this book was now we live there was dramatic paranoia in the early sixties there were story very much like what we talked about today and Hoffa had lots of reasons to think that he was being surveilled he learned about it then he didn't learn about the extent of it the reason I know about the extent of it is because isn't in public now as part of believe it or not the nineteen eighties investigation oh I got access to all of these documents but chucky learned about it in the sixties thank you yeah Jason give any sense or general comment you'd like to the fifties and sixties and forties and seventies then again about today edge rate how powerful the teamsters union was in the fifties and sixties and they were powerful because Hoffa announced failing to deliver are failing deliveries to happen at crucial strategic points he could put Alpha was extremely successful in in growing the power and considered narrowly he was good for Labor in terms of being good for the teamsters at least I prefer a whole bunch of reasons in part because of his commitments he thought that they were captured by various interests had this conventional corruption in counterfactual world he could have led labor in a very different direction ultimately easily indifference to the corruption and criminality around him and very sweeping generalities but I think on the whole Hoffa though brilliant and very was his predecessor and he was they both some are a bargaining techniques that hoffa perfected he wasn't the charismatic cash everywhere on a believe it for it was confirmed by a whole lot of things I've found in my research but titians off to by judges off to buy off anyone who would help him and he identified his yes thank you and you said the FBI did know who did it and who do they say I talk I kind of triangulate and figured out what their current theory is that the they think who did it they think that veto Dak alumnae who was in mentioned the name for reasons I'll explain they think they know the person was who actually killed Hoffa the last of a dozen digs look for Hoffa so they think they know does for a couple of reasons and I'm not sure where I should have drawn the line I didn't mention his name in the and as a as a suspect my publisher wanted me to mention the other name but mm that turned out not to be true and this gentleman is dead he died based on conversations with people in Detroit and the government that they are going I love the book and I'm a victim starting with Dan Monday years in Steve Brill and everybody else auto was likely involved in it is it appropriate to ask you how you think it connects he wasn't supposed to tell me but he did tell me some things that he wasn't supposed to tell me S. has been widely suspected since nineteen seventy five involved in the surprising that Tony Pro Uncle Tony when I was growing up that it's not surprising that Uncle Tony there's that the Havi hit was approved by the Commission The New York Commission in New York everyone so is the decision made their tony pro for a variety and Detroit especially Anthony Jack Loney there's a lot of of the of the intensity and the dates and some of the other calls they made looks very the other questions Professor Goldsmith thank whatever happened to Tony Provenzano's pool table excellent man I met in my life and he had some other descriptions as men who always in a bathing suit and his dale home where we would often go to hang early into pool and I love that pool table I asked him where he got it and where I could get one appropos table in our garage Jack Aranda in plantation which I adore but I don't know what happened to it I think about Tony per every time I play pool and the question I had kind of goes to the conversation you had with chuck other conversations you had with him he tried to attract a lot of that and so towards the end of the book you talk a little I guess the question is you know Kinda talk through you know that because it at the makes plain what was just ask for several encounter stand so and he always had his mother's visage in his in the back of his heads every I didn't push him because I actually came to respect his I mean it seems bizarre but even while not so confessing everything and then one day my mom had a heart attack mm said take him to lunch at seasons fifty two in the food we'll call him down this is a point you too and I just reflexively hit the voice recorder on my and so we were talking along and we weren't even talking we're talking about for this interview of the government came up and I just said without even it's clear that he and Anthony were involved and Chucky I talked about it in a way that was very credible and he had never there's to tell me a whole bunch of things and I learned a lot in that conversation the moment hoffa disappeared Chucky was in this vice he was not involved but he pressure from the government is coming down on him the government the mob was worried that Jackie was going to break flip so he about the background not do what happened that afternoon. I don't believe he knows

Chucky International Brotherhood of t Jack Goldsmith Prose Bookstore president twelve years seven years five years six months twelve year nine years one day
Jimmy Hoffa

GONE

1:04:48 hr | 1 year ago

Jimmy Hoffa

"I'm thrilled to announce a fascinating new podcast original called not guilty. It examines controversial criminal cases and attempts to determine why solid evidence doesn't always lead to a conviction. Stay tuned after our show. So you can hear a clip of the first episode to listen to the full first episode subscribe to not guilty on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. On July thirtieth nineteen seventy five Jimmy Hoffa, a union leader once said to be as powerful as the president of the United States left his house in his green Pontiac to go to the matches red Foxx a restaurant in suburban Detroit. He was meeting with two high ranking organized crime figures off ahead maintained relationships with the American mafia throughout his career these connections had once benefited him immensely. They would eventually lead to his demise offer skinned his surroundings as he pulled into the red foxes parking lot. He'd lived long enough to now to never let his guard down lately he'd grown increasingly wary and his mind seemed to spot danger around every corner, but he knew the red FOX it was safe territory. He tried to put his mind. He's a familiar car pulled up to Hoffa in the parking lot of the restaurant the window roll down and Hoffa nodded to the figure inside a hand reached out of the vehicle and gestured at Hoffa to get in here. Blige d- believing that the meeting had been moved to a different location. That was the last time Jimmy Hoffa was seen dead or alive. Hi, I'm Molly. And I'm Richard welcome to gone a cast original every other Monday. We examined mysterious disappearances and the theories they spawned from the amber room to Michael Rockefeller Picasso. Paintings to the trust in language. The Roanoke colony to the lost Russian cosmonauts if it's gone. We're looking for it at par cast were grateful for you, our listeners, you allow us to do what we love let us know how we're doing retailed on Facebook and Instagram at park cast and Twitter at park gas network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way you can help us is to leave a five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help we also now have merchandise head to par cast dot com slash merch. For more information, you can find all previous episodes of gone as well as all of par casts. Other shows on Spotify and anywhere else. You listen to podcasts. Today's episode is about the life disappearance and lingering mystery of Jimmy Hoffa before he disappeared. Hoffa was best known as the president of the Teamsters union. A collective of truck drivers that controlled the movement of goods across the country from the nineteen thirties until his disappearance in nineteen seventy five Khaw built the Teamsters up from a struggling union to an immensely powerful national organization. He infamously achieved his goals by forming. Strong ties with the mafia after a stint in jail hafa sought to rebuild himself in his reputation in the nineteen seventies. He never got the chance Jimmy Hoffa disappeared in nineteen seventy five after meeting with an unknown. Number of mafia associates. His body has never been found in the decade since he vanished. Jim. Hoffa has become both an engaging mystery and something of a cultural punchline with every year that passes it becomes less and less likely that his remains will ever be recovered in this episode. We will discuss Jimmy Hoffa's rise to and sudden full from power will consider the fallout of his disappearance and look at some of the more recent and outlandish theories about where he actually ended up Jimmy Hoffa's deep public ties to the mafia make it more than likely that he was killed by a mob enforcer hitman. Frank Sheeran, and Richard Kuklinski are both possible suspects in the killing as Tony pro Hoffa's former friend turned nemesis who set up the fateful meeting with Hoffa in nineteen seventy five the question of who kill Jimmy Hoffa is just part of the mystery Hoffa's body has never been found in this episode will also cover the potential theories. As to where he ended up something Hoffa was cremated after his assassination other state that he was dissolved in an oil drum some even think he was buried underneath a famous football stadium. Jimmy Hoffa was born James riddle Hoffa on February fourteenth nineteen thirteen in Brazil, Indiana. He was one of four children, and he grew up in a BoomTown where his father worked as a coal miner from young age Jimmy witnessed the plight of the exploited worker. His father John Hoffa worked for low wages and had little to no protection from numerous hazards of the mine. He died in nineteen twenty when Jimmy was only seven with union protection. Hoffa's father might have lived longer as he watched his now widowed mother struggled to support her family by working multiple jobs. Jimmy internalized at a young age a sense of moral duty to protect workers rights in nineteen twenty four the Hoffa's settled in Detroit, which at the time was an emerging auto city for a few years Jimmy took on part time work to help his mother. Other in nineteen twenty nine when he was fifteen he dropped out of school and started working time at a Krogers warehouse. The work situation was unfair Jimmy and his fellow workers would wait for hours at the warehouse docks for the produce trucks to arrive, but the company only paid them for the time. They actually spent unloading boxes the workers didn't have much negotiating power by nineteen thirty the country was in the beginning. Throes of the great depression if Jimmy or his colleagues complained the company could simply fire them and replace them with one of hundreds of jobless men who lined up outside the warehouse every morning looking for work, the fairness of it all in rage, Jimmy and furthered his belief that unions were necessary to protect the rights of workers by nineteen thirty two Hoffa. Then nineteen didn't care if he was fired. He just wanted to make a point. Half lit walkout. He and his other dockworkers refused to unload the produce while the food rotted on the docks hafa and the other men barricaded the entrance. So that no one could get in. The tactic worked Hoffa and the other strikers manage to negotiate with croakers management to establish a one year contract guaranteeing job security and better pay. It was Jimmy Hoffa's first union deal. But after the year past their agreement expired and Kroger refused to negotiate another contract off a realized he needed the support of a broader organization, and so he reached out to the international brotherhood of Teamsters known as the IB t the Teamsters were technically truck drivers. But the organization was desperate to increase its membership. So that it could secure stronger collective bargaining power. As such with office help the Teamsters proposed that Hoffa and his fellow dockworkers fell under the same jurisdiction as truck drivers since they unloaded produce from trucks. The Kroger's warehouseman voted to join the IB t- local six seventy four chapter. They enjoyed the unions protection for a short time. But the six seventy four soon went bankrupt due to low membership and lost its charter. Hoffa was back where he started with no union and no contract. Kroger finally fired Hoffa in nineteen thirty five after he dropped a crate of vegetables during a confrontation with a Forman covering his superior in juice and Paul undeterred. The twenty two year old Hoffa used his connections within the IB t to secure a new job as an organiser at the office of the local to ninety nine a Detroit charter of the Teamsters. This would be the beginning of his lifelong, passion and obsession. The local to ninety nine only had four hundred members when Hoffa started working there. But the organization was looking to expand the automobile industry was rapidly growing, and thus the number of professional truck drivers was skyrocketing. The local to ninety nine wanted to recruit new members. So that they could make more induce and have a larger membership for negotiation purposes at around the same time that Hoffa joined the to ninety nine the group started employing ruthless mob light tactics to increase its membership. Offer would leave groups of men armed with baseball bats chains to car hauling companies throughout the city. His threat was simple. If the company didn't enroll its employees with the Teamsters than Hoffa and his men would bomb their trucks, these strong arm tactics made the Teamsters and Hoffa notorious throughout Detroit and. They were affective during the first few years after Hoffa joined the Teamsters union saw an uptick in membership. They were able to use that growing number of workers to leverage the trucking companies for better pay and benefits. So even though some these drivers had been coerced into joining they were now enjoying a better quality of life. And thus chose to commit to the Teamsters office recruitment efforts helped grow the Teamsters membership from west than one hundred thousand in nineteen thirty-three to nearly half a million by nineteen thirty nine. He was one of the most effective organizers the union had. Hoffa continued to rise up through the ranks of the union over the next decade. The US government had a high demand for drivers at the end of nineteen forty one after the country entered the second World War by then the Teamsters were large enough organization that they were able to take heavy advantage of these lucrative government contracts membership soared throughout the war Papa was made president of the local to ninety nine chapter in nineteen forty six by then he had his eyes set on the national stage. He continued to rise was the union rep for all of Michigan by nineteen fifty. His reputation grew as a rose in prominence. Those outside the union viewed him as a brute and a criminal whose default method of getting things done was violence, and extortion, but within the union Hoffa was seen as a champion of workers rights. A man who would stop at nothing to protect the Teamsters members the nineteen fifty two when he was thirty nine Hoffa was elected national vice president of the IB for nearly twenty years he had helped establish the Teamsters as an organization of national prominence. And now he was in a position to take them even higher half a began using the organization's financial resources to make political donations. His intent was to support politicians who would cooperate with the needs of the union. He couldn't have known at the time. But the practice he was establishing would one day help get him out of jail. Hoffa also began making inroads with the Geno vs and the buffalo Lino families. These were two prominent east coast mafia organisations Hoffa hadn't given up his own violent tactics. But now that he was the national vice president of one of the largest unions in the United States. He knew he needed a higher level of muscle to help secure his interests, the mafia supplied Hoffa with enforcers to help with the dirtier aspects of securing fair contracts for the Teamsters in return Hoffa appointed mobsters to leadership positions at local union charters and provided access to those charges. Finances and short the mob was able to use the union like a private off the grid banking service. That's Hoffa and the mob became entangled in each other's business. It was a mutually beneficial relationship. As long as both parties goals could coexist, but his hafa grew more powerful, and thus started to attract attention from law enforcement that relationship with start to strain. We'll discuss Hoffa's career on the national stage and the event leading to his disappearance right after this. You have the suspect's fingerprints at the crime scene. You have witnesses testifying that they saw the suspect commit the crime. The suspect has a motive it's an open and shut case. Or is it each week the park cast original not guilty examines? Controversial criminal cases and tries to determine why solid evidence doesn't always lead to a conviction. What police considered compelling evidence against Casey Anthony in the disappearance of her daughter Kayleigh defense attorneys classified as fantasy forensics, and she was ultimately acquitted of Keighley's murder. Amanda Knox served four years in an Italian prison for murder before later being acquitted was the media portrayal of knocks the profile of a killer or a televised character SAS ination and sometimes jurors responsible for wrongful convictions. As was the case when the central park five or convict. Did despite DNA evidence showing none of the suspects. We're involved search for and subscribe to not guilty on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Again, search not guilty or visit park cast dot com slash not guilty to listen now. And don't forget you can hear the beginning of the first episode right after our show. Now back to the story by the mid nineteen fifties Jimmy Hoffa had helped build the Teamsters from a scrappy small collective of truck drivers to a national powerhouse of an organization that had deep political influence and financial ties to the mafia shortly after he became the vice president of the IB t the union relocated its headquarters to Washington DC, Hoffa's mob ties were quickly becoming public knowledge and the relocation to the nation's capital essentially dared, the country's leaders to make a move against him. And in nineteen fifty seven that is exactly what happened that year. The Senate formed of select committee on improper activities in labor and management to investigate the Teamsters and other labor related malfeasance. Senator John l McClellan was the chairman and Robert Kennedy brother of future. President John F. Kennedy was the chief counsel though, it was nicknamed the McClellan committee. Kennedy was the main force driving the investigation. Their first target was Teamsters president Dave Beck who had been reportedly lining his own pockets with union dues after televised hearing in which Beck invoked the fifth amendment the right to refuse to answer for fear of self incrimination sixty five times in one day. He was disgraced and did not seek reelection for the presidency of the IB t the government had inadvertently played into office hand as vice president of the union autho was the clear favourite to take over the presidency of the IB t he had the solid backing of local officers across the country and established relations with mob leadership. But the government wasn't going to be outdone hafa wanted to keep the McClellan committee focused on Beck. So that he could work his campaign unencumbered to that end. He offered a former federal officer named John site chased -i money to leak damning evidence of Beck's misdeeds back to Kennedy and act is spy for the Teamsters within the committee in March of nineteen fifty seven Hoffa made the blunder of meeting with chase d in person to deliver the bribe the F B I was waiting for him. And as soon as Hoffa handed over the money agents swarmed in and arrested him it was Hoffa's. I arrest. It would not be his last Hoffa was charged with attempted bribery and obstruction, but he was ultimately acquitted at his trial held in the summer of nineteen fifty seven so the prosecution had photographs of Hoffa in the act of trying to bribe chase iw. They had not considered the public response to Hoffa's arrest. The jury at the trial was two thirds African American off his lawyers employed, a strategy of linking his efforts as union leader to the civil rights movement, workers rights and civil rights. We're one in the same. According to the defense the tactic worked and Hoffa didn't serve time for the bribery charge. But Kennedy wasn't done after the trial in September of nineteen fifty seven Hoffa announced his goal to be named the new president of the IB t he won the union election with an overwhelming majority despite the McClellan committee investigation Hoffa was still quite popular among the Teamsters, but two major things happened over the next few years that signified Hoffa's luck was running out. I in nineteen fifty seven the FBI raided the now infamous Appalachian meeting, which was a summit of over. Sixty mafia bosses the bust was historic because for the first time law enforcement had proved that established the mafia as a nationwide criminal conspiracy. The public was made aware of the extent of the mob's corruption and the F B I was charged with rooting out mob activity. The second major development was the nineteen sixty election of John F. Kennedy. John Kennedy appointed his brother, Robert as Torney general Robert was now in a position to go after high profile mobsters criminals and Jimmy Hoffa was at the top of his list of targets under Kennedy's leadership. And with the support of the office of the attorney general the McClellan committee broke new ground in office case. Hoffa was tried a number of times over the next few years with no convictions. Ironically, it was for crimes he committed against his own union that ultimately led to his downfall. In nineteen sixty four Hoffa was arrested and tried for using the Teamster pension fund for personal loans and investments he was personally profiting off of land investments in Florida that he had made with Teamster money and had even loan money. From the pensions to mobsters to invest in mob controlled casinos in Las Vegas and Cuba. In short hafa was using Teamster money to help fund criminal enterprises. Thanks to Robert Kennedy's team of prosecutors who by then were being called the get huff squad. Jimmy Hoffa was found guilty of pension fraud and jury tampering and sentenced to thirteen years in federal prison office meant the next three. Years trying to appeal the charge to no avail. He was admitted to Pennsylvania's Lewisburg federal penitentiary in March of nineteen sixty seven when he was fifty four years old. Hoffa tried to govern from inside the prison, despite his incarceration, he maintained his title as the president of the IB T, but named one of his longtime supporters and recently elected vice president Frank Fitzsimmons as the acting president Fitzsimmons was to be a puppet for Hoffa, but not everything would go, according to plan Fitzsimmons, gradually gained more popularity with Teamsters rank and file members and started to replace Hoffa supporters with his own men in high ranking positions, he maintained the unions, cozy relationship with a mob and under his leadership, the mobsters were granted even more access to the Teamsters substantial financial resources hafa did what he could to maintain his influence from his cell at Lewisburg. He had the company of Anthony, Tony pro Provenzano, a captain of the New York Genevieve's crime family who had been a tea. Teamsters vice president before he too was jailed for pension fraud. The two initially continued their alliance in prison with Tony pro using his mob ties to gain respect from other prisoners. However things turned sour between the two men after nasty argument Hoffa found out that Fitzsimmons was granting the mob greater access to Teamster funds. And he felt that the union needed to start putting limits on what they allowed the mafia to get away with Tony pro didn't take too kindly to that idea. But Hoffa doubled down. According to witnesses half, a laid his entire incarceration at Tony pros feet. He blamed the mob and the reckless spending forgetting him arrested and convicted in the first place Hoffa hated prison. He hated the feeling of powerlessness, and he hated that the union he had dedicated his life to building was becoming more and more of a shell for the Ma. Bob. He knew that when he got out and retook control of the Teamsters. They're going to be some changes Tony pro and his mafia compatriots weren't particularly happy about that attitude, and thus a rift began to form between Hoffa and his former friends hafa had benefited from the mob support for decades. Now, it seemed he was setting himself up to learn what it was like to have the mafia as an enemy. Hoffa didn't even serve half of his thirteen year prison sentence. He was released in nineteen seventy one when he was pardoned by president Richard Nixon, Nixon was preparing for the nineteen seventy two election and was looking to secure blue collar votes. He allegedly made an arrangement with Fitz Simons that included pardoning Hoffa in exchange for Teamster support. Only after he was released from prison did Hoffa find out that Nixon had imposed a condition to the parole. Officer was not to be involved in union activities until March nineteen eighty this was possibly Fitzsimmons work as well he'd secured his former bosses release, but had also ensured he wouldn't be able to take back his position. The outraged. Auto was determined to retake his command at whatever cost he wanted to de-legitimize Fitzsimmons leadership. By exposing his supposed- mob ties. This was a dangerous course of action Fitzsimmons had done his part to make the mob. Happy Hoffa with his public conviction and banned from handling union. Business was something of a pariah moving on Fitzsimmons might be seen as an active aggression. But Hoffa didn't seem to care the union was his and he made it clear that he would do whatever it took to get his power back and doing so he may well have played a role in securing his own downfall. On July thirtieth nineteen seventy-five. Jimmy Hoffa had a lunch appointment with two. Mafia leaders Anthony, Jack Loney of the Detroit partnership, and Tony pro of the Geno VI's family. They were to meet at two pm at the parking lot of the matches red Foxx a restaurant in the suburb of Detroit off felt comfortable with the meeting location. They were meeting in a public place at a restaurant that was well known to him the red FOX at hosted Hoffa's son's wedding reception. The likely purpose of the meeting was for Tony pro and Hoffa to reconcile while. Jack Aloni mediated the conversation. Tony pro had been making death threats towards Hoffa ever since they had a falling out at Lewis Berg in nineteen seventy four off ahead asked Tony for his support to run for re election to the presidency of the IB t Tony pro responded that he would pull out Hoffa's guts and kidnap is. Granddaughters. Tony pro was not a person that one would want as an enemy in addition to the men that he had dealt with as a mob enforcer. He was also known to take extreme measures to make his political opponents disappear. There was never proof of these allegations. Because the bodies were never found hafa couldn't afford to take Tony's threats lightly, which is why he needed to reconcile with him to have a chance at the presidency off awaited for fifteen minutes by two fifteen. He was still alone in the parking lot. And he was getting irritated off a cold his wife Josephine in a fury to check. If he had any messages. He didn't no one had called the house. He kept waiting in the parking lot pacing around his green Pontiac at around three pm. He called his friend Lewis, Lynn, tow, a former Teamster officials. Missile and complained that he was being stood up. Lynn toad tried to come. Huff it down Hoffa eventually relented and even made plans to meet Lynn toe after the meeting off then hung up that phone. Call was the last time anyone heard from Jimmy Hoffa. Hoffa had told Josephine he'd be home by four. He didn't show up and the next morning. She started making calls to anyone who might know where her husband was she called each of her children growing more desperate as each claimed. Not to have heard anything from their father, Lynn, tow her that Hoffa was missing and went to the red FOX to see if he could learn anything he found Hoffa's green Pontiac still in the parking lot of the matches red Foxx. Hafa? However was nowhere to be seen James Hoffa. Jimmy son filed a missing persons report that night the local police soon reached out to the FBI office. Disappearance felt eerily like a mob hit the FBI rounded up the usual suspects. But they made no progress in the case, they knew that Hoffa was supposed to meet Tony pro and Jack Aloni, but both men had solid. Alibis Jack Loney had been getting a haircut. And Tony pro was in New Jersey playing cards. Why both men had airtight alibis during the time period when they were supposed to be meeting with Hoffa is naturally a major question in the Jimmy Hoffa mystery. But with no trace of a body and no witnesses the search for Hoffa dried up he was declared legally dead in nineteen eighty two the legacy of his mystery, however would live on in. Spawn a canvas of theories and speculation as to what really happened. We'll cover the major suspected theory as to what really happened to Jimmy Hoffa after this. Now back to the story. On a summer day in nineteen seventy five famed union leader turned convicted felon, Jimmy Hoffa phoned his wife, and then his friend from the parking lot of a restaurant where he was waiting to meet with his former mafia friends, they were the last calls he ever made and Hoffa was never seen again after that day. This is the end of what the F B I and the public know for sure and where the story starts to splinter off into different theories. Everything else that follows from now on is only corroborated by individual accounts, and are essentially speculations. Jimmy Hoffa's body has never been found and without that vital evidence to shine the light on what happened all those years ago almost any theory could be true. The first theory is that a hitman named Frank Sheeran executed the hit on Hoffa Sheeran. A high ranking mob affiliate of the buffalo. Lino family and longtime friend of Hoffa recalls. The day in Charles brands two thousand four book. I heard you paint houses Frank the Irishman Sheeran and closing the case on Jimmy Hoffa in the biography. Frank states that he was sent to the red FOX to meet Hoffa for the two pm meeting. He was accompanied by Salvatori Sally, bugs Brig aglow. Tony pros right hand, man. Chuckie O'Brien one of Hoffa's longtime friends, drove them in a maroon mercury that was believed to belong to Jack Aloni son Hoffa recognize the car and the men when they finally arrived at the red FOX he likely assumed that they were there to pick him up, and that the meeting location had changed hafa was era -tated. But he knew he couldn't pass up the chance to make peace with Tony. He got in the car with the men. After a short drive their rive at a house Sheeran. Hoffa got out of the car. O'brien and Sally bugs stayed inside. The car is they weren't important enough to be at a meeting of the significance. But Hoffa trusted Sheeran. Hoffa walked into the house first and as Shirin entered he shut the door behind him. As he entered the foyer off of realized that nobody was in the house to greet them. Oughta began to suspect that he and Shirin were about to be ambushed little did he know that Sheeran was complicit in the plan by Sheeran's account as Hoffa turn to leave the house Sheeran leveled his handgun and shot Hoffa twice behind the right ear Sheeran left immediately, leaving the body and the gun on the floor. Low ranking mob affiliates would later clean up the blood and wipe the house of any evidence. Hoffa's body was cremated. Before he died in two thousand three here told numerous reporters that he murdered Hoffa almost as if confessing his sins Sheeran was one of the most trusted associates of Russell Buffa Lino and extremely powerful mob boss who feared that Hoffa's threats to expose Teamster and mob ties would become reality. Buff Lino would have the authority to order a hit on Hoffa and here in as one of his most trusted and skilled affiliates. Would logically be his picked to execute the plan. Although Sheeran was good friends with Hoffa to he knew that if he were to refuse. Buffalo knows orders. He would risk being killed himself Sheeran's account was fuzzy, but the FBI was able to use his confession to track down the house where the alleged murder took place the physical description he provided matched up and the timing was right to the house wasn't being rented to anyone during. The time period in which the murder took place. Finally within the house, the FBI found the smoking gun or more, specifically, the blood that the gun had shed. There were bloodstains underneath the hardwood floors of the foyer, but after extensive testing, none of the blood was linked to Hoffa's DNA. Frank Sheeran's account was one of the more viable theories on what happened to Jimmy Hoffa. But in the absence of a body or even proof of what really happened that day in nineteen seventy five dozens of other theories have emerged. This leads us to our second theory. Although Hoffa's DNA wasn't found in the house that Sheeran described. They did find Hoffa's DNA someplace else in Chucky O'Brien's car, which Frank Sheeran described in his story in the back seat of O'Brien's car. There was a three inch piece of Hoffa's hair. This could mean that Hoffa was in O'Brien's car the day of his death, contrary to Shirin story that they were in a maroon mercury belonging to Jack Aloni son as Jimmy Hoffa's son James describes they have our full cooperation with regard to this prosecution, and we shouldn't wait thirty months. We should bring to Justice those people who are responsible for my father's disappearance who Brian May have been the sole person to pick up Hoffa from the parking lot of the matches red FOX and take him to an undisclosed location to be murdered as we've said O'Brien and Hoffa used to be close. But while Hoffa was in jail O'Brien switched his loyalty to Fitzsimmons wanted to retain the Teamsters presidency. Perhaps O'Brien's newfound allegiance led him to commit the murder, but he never publicly claimed that it was him. In fact, he vehemently denied having anything to do with the disappearance. A third theory implicates both O'Brien and Shereen in the murder. Terrence McShane was a former FBI agent. He was also the chairman of the board of monitors of the IB tea and as such supervised a cleanup of the union beginning in nineteen fifty eight. He shared the account of an unnamed east coast Teamster official who claim to be a witness to the murder, according to this east coast Teamster office tensions with the mafia not only stemmed from his determination to replace Fitzsimmons. But also from issues in his marital life. This theory centers around the premise that Hoffa was a busy man often out of town for union business and that this supposedly left his wife Josephine lonely and available. These coast Teamster allege that Josephine had an affair with a low level Detroit mobster named Anthony semi when Hoffa found out he went to the kingpin of the Detroit mob. Anthony's Ereli for help with this matter. Supposedly this caused Sara Lee does lose respect for Hoffa because of his inability to handle his family issues by himself. The combination of Hoffa having lost face with the mob and the mobs reluctance to have him resume leadership of the Teamsters set the stage for the murder Zarella consulted with Russell Buffa Lino about Hoffa as one of buffalo knows men. Tony pro had tension with Hoffa from their days in the Lewisburg penitentiary, the two mob bosses decided that the best way to settle. The problems would be to order a hit on Hoffa by the east coast Teamsters account on July thirtieth nineteen seventy five O'Brien was driving the car to meet Hoffa with Tony pro in the passenger seat in Sheeran sitting in the rear Hoffa was lured into the car. And as he sat next to sheer in the rear seat sharing smashed a gun but to his head to knock him. Unconscious and then strangled Hoffa to death with the wire afterwards. O'brien drove the car to a mob affiliated sanitation services company down the street where the anonymous Teamster witnessed them put Hoffa's corpse into the incinerator. Although this theory seems plausible at first there are a few inconsistent details. I there are no other records of Hoffa having trouble in his marital life. He's largely written about as a family man for whom family came first and the union second second, if his wife was having an affair with a low level mobster, isn't it questionable? Why Hoffa would bring the issue to the kingpin of the Detroit mob, regardless? Tony pro had a firm alibi during the time that Hoffa disappeared. He was in New Jersey playing cards, though, if he did have a hand in orchestrating Hoffa's death. Then the alibi would make for a shrewd move. So even though Terence McShane seems to have credentials connections that could give him a unique insight into Hoffa's death. This theory is probably incorrect. The final theory centers around Richard Kuklinski, a hitman affiliated with the east coast mob in New Jersey and New York Kuklinski was well acquainted with Tony pro from their childhood days. Tony pro had an order for a hit from Russell Buffa Lino and decided that Kuklinski was trustworthy enough for the job a may afternoon of July thirtieth nineteen seventy five an unidentified driver Kuklinski, and Tony pro drove to the matches red FOX restaurant and met hafa in the parking lot. Tony pro got out of the car to greet Hoffa and lured him into the back seat. Tony retook his spot in the front seat leaving Hoffa in the back next to Kuklinski a few minutes after they had driven out of the parking lot. Tony pro gave the signal for Kuklinski to attack Kuklinski drew a job raker from his hiding place in swung it via. Silently at Hoffa knocking him out as Hoffa's head load against his shoulder. Kuklinski struck the final blow driving a knife through his head the unnamed driver pulled the car over at a rest stop, and he cook linski and Tony pro stuffed Hoffa's body into a body bag Kuklinski drove the car with Hoffa's body to New Jersey to junk yard under Polaski skyway there. He and other mom associates at the junkyard put the body in an oil drum and set it on fire before welding shot and varying it. A few years later as the story goes an unnamed mobster had gotten in trouble with the law, and there was a rumor that he might cooperate with the F B I about the remnants of Hoffa's body in order to avoid the risk of the oil drum being found by the FBI. It was Doug backup compacted in the trunk of a car and sent off to Japan as scrap metal that would be used for car parts. Again, the problem with Kuklinski's story is that Tony pro wasn't actually in Detroit at the time of office disappearance. Also, hafa was a smart, man. It isn't so believable that he would have gotten into a car where he didn't know most of the people sitting in it, especially since Hoffa knew that Tony pro had a grudge against him. He would be cautious. So this gives us two stories from people with intimate knowledge of the situation and to direct confessions from people admitting to the murder and disposal of the body. If only one of these stories existed, it may be more believable. But the presence of two conflicting stories just muddles the truth, and in all honesty, makes it more likely that the real answer to this mystery will never be found the problem with all of these accounts is that in the absence of body. None of them can be fully verified share. In his long dead. And the fact that he laid out such detailed confession seems to make his story the most likely theory, there's a lot of corroborating factors even though a lot of the story relies mostly on Sharon's word. Although the F B I didn't find any of Hoffa's DNA in the blood at the house where the murder allegedly took place DNA's lifespan can depend on the weather exposure to chemicals and other factors taking into account that the mom affiliates cleaned the house afterward. It could also be that they did a supremely thorough job and didn't leave any biological evidence behind. They might have been pretty experienced at this after all given that Hoffa was a famous and powerful figure in America at the time. It's likely that only a high level mobster could have ordered his head Sheeran's close connection to Buffa Lino lens his story the most credibility in. I heard you paint houses Shirin recounts, a meeting with buffalo Lino Hoffa and himself buffalo Lena was trying to tell Hoffa not to run for the presidency of the Teamsters and to let Fitzsimmons continue leading the union. He hinted that other mafia bosses even more powerful than he was perturbed by Hoffa's threats to expose the mob and the rumors surrounding him cooperating with the FBI, but Hoffa determined and strong willed neglected these warnings. Jimmy, Hoffa's disappearance in the mystery behind his final resting place has become a cornerstone of American pop culture. His is one of the most famous cold cases in American history, and it has worked its way into the very fabric of our culture, like many, cultural touchstones Hoffa's legacy has at times crossed over from mystery to parody for every new book or dateline special exploring the story. There is a TV show or movie making Hoffa a punchline the specter of Jimmy Hoffa has made appearances on everything from the X files to the Simpsons. The discovery of his body was even a main plot point of Bruce almighty, the mystery of his disappearance became a running joke among the mob one story claims that after he was murdered. His remains were buried in the cornerstone of the renaissance hotel in Detroit. Jack Aloni would reportedly wave Hello to Jimmy whenever he passed a building on the street. When it comes to Jimmy Hoffa, even real-life can get a little ridiculous for years. One of the more fanciful theories about where Jimmy Hoffa was sanded like a plot from the sopranos, according to this rumor after the hit a mobster dumped Hoffa's body in the construction site for what was Giants Stadium in New Jersey in two thousand ten the TV show Mythbusters even took a crack at proving or disproving the starey when they scan the field with ground penetrating radar. However, they proved that the giants theory was just that a theory that like all the others didn't provide enough evidence to be considered. As fact if his been over forty years since Jimmy Hoffa went to that fateful meeting at the red FOX in all that time. No reporter, no law enforcement officer, no friend, or family member has ever been able to locate. His remains as more and more people who were alive back then die off each passing year makes it that much less likely that will ever know the truth Jimmy Hoffa associated with dangerous mobsters in order to help secure his own rise to power in the end. It was his own ambition that likely killed him Hoffa was declared legally dead in nineteen eighty two. But given what we know about the circumstances. He almost certainly did not survive that nineteen seventy five meeting with whomever was the mob sent to pick him up. No matter what gruesome fate befell his body. Jimmy Hoffa is and will likely remain one of the most famous missing persons cases in American history. And so long as his body is not found. There will always be new theories as to what really happened. Thanks again for tuning into gone. We'll be back in two weeks with another episode. You can find all previous episodes of gone as well as all par casts. Other shows on Spotify and anywhere else. You listen to podcasts. Several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show the best way to help is to leave a five star review. And don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at park cast network. We'll see next time just because it's gone doesn't mean it can't be found. Gone was created. By max Cutler is a production of Cutler media, and as part of the par cast network. It is produced by max and Ron Cutler sound designed by Andy weights with production assistance by Ron Shapiro. Paul Moller, Maggie add Meyer, and Freddie Beckley. This episode of gone was written by jasmine Kim and stars Molly Brandenburg and Richard Rossner. And here it is a clip of the first episode of not guilty. It's about Robert Blake whose wife was found dead in his car from gunshot wound to the back of her head to listen to the full first episode subscribed to not guilty on Spotify. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. Due to the graphic nature of this investigation and trial. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of murder and sexuality that some people may find offensive we advise extreme caution for listeners under thirteen. On the night of may fourth two thousand one newlyweds Bonnie, Lee Bakley and Robert Blake ate dinner together at vitelle os and talion restaurant in the studio city neighborhood of Los Angeles, California. It was one of Blake's regular haunts even earning him in upon this dish on the menu facetiously ministre, Allah Robert Blake normally when he came to tell us he utilized the restaurants valet service tonight. He parked his nineteen ninety one dodge stealth on the street a block and a half away after dinner Blake in Bonnie headed to his car to drive home. But before driving off Blake realized he'd forgotten something inside the restaurant. He left Bonnie to wait while he retrieved it assuring her that he'd be right back. The next ten minutes would change both of their lives forever. Blake returned to a horrific scene. Blood was everywhere. Bonnie had been shot twice and struggled with every breath. Blake frantically ran to a nearby house and they called nine one one. Blake found an off duty nurse and enlisted her help rushing her back to his car pleading for her to do what she could to save his wife. But by the time, Bonnie Lee, Bakley reached Saint Joseph medical center in Burbank at ten fifteen pm less than thirty minutes from the time she'd been shot she was dead. How should we determine a person's guilt? Do we defer to the evidence discovered by police or the verdict reached by jury and what happens when the evidence and the verdict don't line up. Hi, I'm Vanessa Richardson. And this is not guilty apar- cast original each week. We look at complicated. Criminal cases that test the limits of innocent until proven guilty. I will follow the police as they gathered evidence and testimony to build a case in charge a suspect in our next episode. We'll see that evidence play out in the courtroom and understand how the jury reached their verdict this week. We're examining the two thousand one murder of Bonny Lee Bakley will examine the investigation into her death her colorful celebrity stocking past and how police narrow down there several suspects. Next week. We'll follow the resulting criminal trial civil trial and see for ourselves. How the evidence matches up with the verdict. LAPD Detective Ronald ITO arrived on the scene in studio city, just before midnight on may fourth two thousand one he quickly got up to speed with the other officers who had been working the area since they arrived around ten pm. They had already discovered a gun in a dumpster around the corner and believed it was the murder weapon, but the World War Two era nine millimeter pistol had no serial number which made it practically impossible to trace back to the owner. Etoh noted that sixty eight year old Robert Blake was in hysterics three times. He asked for a glass of water drained it then puked it out onto the grass. It was either very good or very bad acting from the television star ITO couldn't decide which from his career experience. Ito knew that more often than not a husband was connected to his wife's murder and Blake was the last. One to see Bonnie alive. Ito had also read tabloid headlines about Blake and his recent baby mama drama with the victim. Forty four year old Bonny Lee Bakley, he hoped the actor would cooperate with the investigation he had a reputation as being a bit temperamental. In the five years since OJ Simpson had been found not guilty discussions of celebrity privilege had continued in Los Angeles Justice system, ITO was aware of the possible impact Blake stardom from his days as TV cop. Baretta might have on the case the burden of proof was that much heavier. Every step would be by the book, Robert was still visibly shaken, but agreed to accompany ITO back to the police station for an interview the detective noted that once in the car Blake's demeanor was calmer. And by the time, they reached the station he was explaining an extensive detail. All of the many reasons why several people had good reason to come after his late wife. Blake didn't mince words with the detectives Bonny Lee Bakley was a con artist. He claimed that she had been running a lonely hearts scam for thirty years writing letters to single men around the country, sending them naked pictures, pretending to be in love with them all in exchange for money. Well, she didn't outright ask for cash. Instead, she let her pen, pals know, how grateful she would be to them for a little monetary assistance. Bonnie would claim she was short on rent or her cat was sick or her car needed to be repaired. If they would just be so kind as the sender. A few hundred bucks Bonnie would fix her car and immediately drive to meet them, then she described in graphic detail how vigorously she would thank them for their help. Though. Of course, she never did show up her next letter would say she got lost or ran out of gas money or the repairs cost more than she expected. If only they could send a bit more money or even better a credit card number Robert Blake told detective ITO that he didn't know about his wife's letter service until after they married in November of two thousand Bonnie had only recently relocated to Los Angeles. So they could raise their eleven month old daughter Rosie together. Ito ask Blake to describe his relationship with Bonnie how they met. The pair were first introduced it. Comedian Chuck McCann's sixty four th birthday party in August of nineteen ninety eight another guest screenwriter will Jordan had brought Bonnie as date, but it was Blake that she left with they drove back to her hotel in Hollywood he said they did sleep together that night. But it wasn't a big deal. They started up a casual relationship, Bonnie, forty two at the time lived in Memphis, Tennessee, but made frequent trips to Los Angeles to see sixty five year old Blake in between visits. They talked on the phone and wrote letters regular letters. He stressed not the dirty ones. She wrote to schmucks. Bunny told Blake then that she was on birth control. But he found out later that the pill. She took were actually for Tila ty- drugs by late nineteen ninety nine. She was pregnant when detective ITO asked Blake how he felt about the baby Blake admitted that he had hoped Bonnie would get an abortion. Instead she had the baby in June of two thousand they decided to get married. A few months later after hammering out a very aggressive prenuptial agreement. It precluded Bonnie from inheriting any of Blake's money or property at any point. She also signed a temporary custody agreement granting Blake sole physical custody of their daughter. Bonnie's visits would be prescheduled and monitored Blake assured ITO that he was glad now to have Rosie. She was a perfect little baby girl and he loved her. But when he I found out Bonnie was pregnant he. He had no interest in being a father. Again, he was sixty eight years old with two grown children. He didn't need any more. This was why Rosie was now living with his daughter thirty four year old Delina Blake. She had wanted kids of her own. But was unable to have any at the time. Now, she had Rosie it worked out for everyone. Ito asked Blake to walk him through the events of the evening. They went to dinner at vitelle those Blake reported that before they left the house Bonnie asked him to bring along one of his guns. She thought someone was stalking her and felt safer with his thirty eight nearby. They parked on the street a little over a block away from the restaurant. The hostess sat them in Blake's customary corner booth around eight thirty pm after they ate Blake paid the Bill his receipt timestamped nine twenty three pm, but when they reached his car, he realized that he'd left his jacket and the thirty eight caliber handgun in the booth. He left Bonnie to wait while he went back to the restaurant to retrieve them while there he asked for two glasses of water and drank them, both when he got back to the car at nine thirty eight PM he found bunny had been shot twice. She was barely alive. Frantic Blake ran to the nearest house and banged on the door. He had to try more than one house before someone would answer when they did he insisted that they call nine one one police registered the call at nine forty pm Blake. Then ran back to vitelle owes to see if there was a doctor present Terry Lorenzo custody. Ada a nurse jumped up from her dinner to help. But by the time, they reached Bonnie, she was bleeding from her eyes nose and mouth, custom yadda. Couldn't do anything. Then the lights and sirens arrived by the time. The ambulance reached the hospital at ten fifteen pm Bonnie was dead on arrival. Blake then reiterated to ITO that Bonnie had pissed off a lot of people over the years with her letter scheme. She had plenty of reasons to think someone was following her. This was probably the work of some guy. She bilked revenge ITO wrote down the theory, but also noted how quickly Blake turned from visceral grief moaning on the sidewalk to trash talking the deceased mother of his child. So far it appeared to detective ITO that Robert Blake had plenty of motive to kill his wife and ample opportunity, he also had the means Blake owned several guns. In addition to the thirty eight caliber, but the forensics team found no significant gun powder residue when they tested his hands. And no blood on his clothes Bonnie was shot at point blank range. It was unlikely that the shooter could've walked away free of. Any spotter. Frustrated ITO sent Blake home. He knew he was missing something. He needed more information and more manpower ITO reached out to another detective Brian Tendal to join the investigation. Together, the detective spoke with Bonnie's younger sister in Dover. New Jersey thirty nine year old Marjorie Bakley. She had learned of the murder, not even four hours after it occurred when tabloid reporters arrived on her doorstep just after midnight on may fifth two thousand one they asked her who would have wanted to kill MRs Robert Blake Marjorie told the gossip rags the same thing. She later told detectives it was Robert Blake simple as that. She said, quote, I didn't agree with what? My sister was doing to him. There was a point when I felt sorry for what she was doing with the baby but murder is wrong. There is a better way to deal with things and quote detective ITO asked Margery to verify Blake's claims about the pregnancy. Was it true that Bonnie had intentionally become pregnant contrary to Blake's wishes Marjorie? Admitted that Bonnie had harboured the fantasy of marrying a celebrity for most of her life when presented with the chance to finally bag Hollywood man, she would have done whatever necessary including getting knocked up. She tried to justify her sister's behavior explaining that Bonnie's childhood was to mull choice. Their father was a drunk and molested her. Their mother was no better a dour woman who referred to the children as stupid and ugly. She abandoned Bonnie at age eleven sending her to live with their maternal grandmother. It made Bonnie feel like no one wanted or loved her Marjorie described their grandmother Grammy hall as tight fisted. She only bought secondhand clothes and didn't allow Bonnie to bathe daily thinking it was a waste of water. Bonnie was teased at school for her old worn out clothes and rat's nest hair. It made her all the more determined to prove the bullies wrong by becoming famous star or at the very least adjacent to a famous star. It took Marjorie a minute to recount for ITO. All of the celebrities Bonnie had chased over the years. She spent the summer she turned twenty in Graceland trying to catch a glimpse of Elvis, but then he died the next year in nineteen seventy seven Dean Martin in the early nineties before he died. Gary Busey, Chuck mcken chubby checker all of the Frankie's valley Sinatra and Avalon she followed some for a few months. Others for years starting in nineteen Eighty-four Bonnie spent nearly two decades stocking Jerry Lee Lewis ingratiating herself in the outer rings of his circle she befriended roadies bodyguards even Lewis is wife's personal secretary. Anyone who might help her get close bunny even tried to claim in nineteen Ninety-three that Lewis was the father of one of her daughter's naming her third child. Old Jerry Lee, spelled J E R. I L E when she leaked the story to tabloids. The singer ordered a paternity test and cleared his name. Detective Tendal pointed out the similarity in Bonnie's tactics with Lewis and with Blake Marjorie agreed. Her sister was a determined woman. Who knew what she wanted Bonnie had once told her that being around celebrity made her feel better than other people it made her forget about her time as the smelly little girl in old clothes ITO asked Margery if she remembered the last time, they spoke she told him they talked for several hours the morning of the murder from eight AM to two thirty PM Bonnie was panicky terrified of Blake and certain he wanted to kill her but was trying to play off her fear with humor, she instructed Marjorie, which tabloid reporter. She wanted to write her obituary and what headshots to use for the magazines ITO asked. Why Bonnie thought Blake was after her Marjorie said it came straight from the horse's mouth apparently the night before her murder. Had gotten into an argument. He told Bonnie, quote, I've got a bullet with your name on it. And quote, Bonnie insisted that she wasn't just some Bimbo. He could push around. She said, quote, I must be kind of smart. I got you to finally marry me. I got myself a movie star. And nobody thought I could do it and quote, according to Marjorie Blake fired back, quote, girl, you better remember who you are dealing with. I'll kill your ass and quote. Coming up. Detectives ITO and tend to learn more about Bonnie's letter scheme and try to connect the murder weapon to a suspect.

James riddle Hoffa Teamsters union union Teamster Detroit Tony pro Jimmy son FOX murder Robert Blake Frank Sheeran FBI president Spotify Bonnie Lee red Foxx United States Frank Fitzsimmons vice president
Jimmy Hoffa Pt. 2

Conspiracy Theories

37:36 min | 5 months ago

Jimmy Hoffa Pt. 2

"July Thirtieth Nineteen, seventy five, not a cloud in the sky in Pontiac Michigan. Wildlife. Called peacefully across the lakes until a plane hummed over the horizon startling them, the craft flew so low. It nearly skimmed the surface of the great. Lakes inside were three men all dressed for business. All armed with guns, badges, and the same stern look on their faces is they stared at the man across from them. The handcuffed man return there stare trying to appear apathetic. He looked rather unassuming in a dark polo in slacks. Yet, his hand shook like a man in serious trouble, he told the federal officers, his wife was waiting for him at home. He promised to cook her stakes. She'd worry if they took too long, one agent replied. I'm sorry to say, but your wife, maybe dining alone, the other agent pulled the door of the plane open. They forced the unassuming man towards the edge and taunted him saying you've gotTa love that view before he could respond one of the agents shove the man he plummeted through the air toward Lake Michigan. Landing, with an unforgettable splash, the former captive would never be seen again. Welcome to conspiracy theories a podcast original, every Monday and Wednesday. We dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events and search for the truth I'm Carter Roy, and I'm only Brandenburg and neither of us are conspiracy theorists, but we are open minded skeptical and curious don't get US wrong. Sometimes, the official version is the truth. Sometimes, it's not. You can find episodes of conspiracy theories and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream conspiracy theories for free on spotify, just open the APP and type conspiracy theories in the search bar. This is our second episode on Jimmy Hoffa. The former president of the teamsters labor union who disappeared on July. Thirtieth. Nineteen, seventy, five throughout his career. Jimmy. Rope the Union into illicit business ventures and gave money to the mob, combine his role as a union leader with his high up mob connections and the US government wanted him gone last time. We covered his rivalry with Senator Bobby Kennedy and HOFFA'S SCHEMES TO BRIBE, President Nixon to release him from prison. But not long after he got out. Jimmy Hoffa disappeared off the face of Detroit. Today, we'll look at the conspiracy theories surrounding Hoffa's disappearance first off conspiracy theory number one. Jimmy Hoffa was killed by federal agents who wanted to ensure frank fitzsimmons maintain the role of teamster president. Conspiracy theory number two, Jimmy Hoffa was murdered by serial killer and Mafia hitman Richard. The ICEMAN. Kuklinski. At the time Kuklinski was known for making people disappear and conspiracy theory, number three, Jimmy was killed by his longtime friend and associate frank, the Irishman Sheeran who was sent by Mafia Don Russell Bufalino to keep Jimmy quiet. Have all that and more coming up, stay with. US. To this day, no one has been convicted for Jimmy Hoffa's mysterious disappearance in nineteen, seventy, five over the years. The FBI narrowed their search to nine suspects, all of whom were involved with either the teamsters or the Mafia. Get each of them pled the fifth when brought before grand jury. The lack of evidence makes the death of Jimmy Hoffa. One of the most notorious cold cases in history, and it doesn't help that his body was never found not for lack of trying tips on Jimmy Hoffa's missing corpse led the FBI on a wild goose chase across the country Mafia hitman Donald, Tony. The Greek Franco's claimed that new. Jersey. Mafia dismembered Jimmy and buried him in the end zone of giants stadium anonymous tip suggested that Tony Pro and his associate Salvatori Bruguera Leo. Murder. And ground him into pieces than they scattered him in the Florida everglades. But there was one eyewitness testimony that led to new suspects, not the mafia nor the teamsters, the federal government which brings us to conspiracy theory number one. Jimmy was killed by federal agents perhaps on orders from a former president. The theory starts with a man named Joseph Franko. Franco was a former aide and strong arm for the teamsters for over thirty years. He was closely tied to the mafia, but he also worked intimately with Jimmy Hoffa Franco was called to testify before the grand jury twice regarding Jimmy. HOFFA's disappearance. Franko claimed he was worried about exposing the truth. He didn't want anyone to come after him. So he never told the jury what he saw and stayed silent about what he witnessed that July afternoon until nineteen, eighty, seven when Franko published his book offers. Man. Franco's story went something like this. On the day of Jimmy's disappearance, Franko happened to be at the same shopping center as the mattress Red Fox restaurant where Jimmy was set to meet the two tonys. Franko said he was there on personal business. It's unclear if that meant Franko is there for the meeting or it was completely unrelated leaving the Strip Mall Franko notice Jimmy standing by his Green Pontiac in the parking lot. by Franco's estimating Jimmy, probably just phoned his wife and was headed back to the car Franko, didn't have time to approach before a black. Ford Ltd pulled up beside Jimmy. According to Franco to federal marshalls or federal agents stepped out of the vehicle and flashed their badges Jimmy talked to them for a moment, and then climbed into the fords backseat without protest. The car exited the LA. Down Telegraph road around two forty, five PM Franko, hopped in his own car and pursued them to the small Pontiac Oakland airport. This was a public use airport that housed private planes, but Franko didn't have clearance. Clearance to follow the Ford inside the gates of the airfield, Franko waited and watched for a while it's not clear how long could have been ten minutes maybe a couple of hours, but Franko insists the Ford Ltd never exited back onto the main road. He says the only way Jimmy could have left. The airport was by plane and sense Jimmy was never seen again. Franko insists the feds were responsible for his disappearance. In fact he believes government agents may have pushed Jimmy out of the plane over the great. Lakes. After a decade-long rivalry with the federal government, it's not hard to see why they may have wanted Jimmy out of the picture. And at the time of his disappearance, Jimmy was threatening to expose the shady practices of current teamster president. Frank. fitzsimmons fitzsimmons allowed the mafia to withdraw vast sums of money from the unions pension accounts. At the same time, fits was making regular contributions to Richard. Nixon's campaign. Now, Hoffa had done a similar thing allowing mafiosos to borrow money from the teamsters to build casinos. That's how he wound up in jail, and he'd been involved with donations to Nixon to get back out of jail, but fitzsimmons had successfully kept his mob ties a secret. This grew more complicated because Nixon and Fitzsimmons were publicly aligned as well. The two appeared on television together on one occasion on their relationship wasn't a secret. If fits is ties to the mob came out, it could be detrimental to Nixon's career, perhaps even send him to jail. But there are a few holes here. Like, the fact that Franco waited until nineteen eighty. To publish his account. In Jimmy's son, James P. Hoffa publicly denied the claims and Franco's books and said that a Franko was truly a witness. Then he should have come forward twelve years. Prior. Franko did admit that he was afraid of challenging the feds the time. He said, he was worried he'd get wacked or sent to prison, and in one thousand, nine, hundred, seven Franko said, he'd take a lie detector test. If he was granted federal immunity, he also said he could identify one of the Federal Agency saw that day. If a photo was provided, Franko also defended his argument by hinting that other great leaders of this period may have been assassinated by the government. We've covered a few of these previously, but conspiracy theories suggest that the C. I. A. Hired Lee Harvey Oswald to kill John F.. Kennedy. and Bobby, Kennedy's assassin was allegedly a victim of government mind control even Martin. Luther. King Junior was thought to be assassinated by the FBI, still the FBI. Roth. Franco's claims since they came out. So many years after Jimmy, HOFFA's disappearance. They never searched the Great Lakes for Jimmy's body probably because they felt the accusations were unsubstantiated or because they were directly involved in the disappearance. Still Franco never could provide proof of what he saw that day. As far as we can tell, he never took a lie detector test nor did he get to validate his theories with photos of former agents? which leads us to the biggest plot hole in Franco's theory. Nixon had already resigned by nineteen, seventy five when Jimmy went missing. He resigned in Nineteen, seventy four after the disgrace of Watergate. So. Why would Nixon Care About Jimmy? Exposing his ties to the mob at that point. And how would he have sway over federal agents? Let me. Remind you Nixon used former CIA and FBI agents in the Watergate scandal. So it's possible. He also used former agents to threaten or kill Jimmy Hoffa. President. Ford Pardon, Richard Nixon, which meant he couldn't be indicted over the scandal. But if we're got out that he received dirty money from the mob via Fitzsimmons and use that to fund Watergate. That could have led to an even larger mess. Did Nixon had the motive? Sure but the resources probably not? It seems like Franco's story was nothing more than a publicity stunt. So on a scale of one to ten with ten, being very likely and one being very unlikely I'd give this theory a to at of ten. Give it a three. The sticking point for me is the connection to Nixon and Watergate. We know what Nixon was capable of and how far he'd go to get what he wanted. Wouldn't put it past him to attempt to have Hoffa eliminated to save his own skin. That said there were far more bloodthirsty individuals with motive to put a hit on Jimmy? HOFFA. Including, they known serial killer. Coming up next the infamous serial killer. Richard. The iceman Cook Linski now back to the story. According to his friend and fellow teamster. Joseph Franco Jimmy. Hoffa was lured into a vehicle by federal agents in one, thousand, nine, seventy, five. Franko claims he tailed the agents to a private airfield believes Jimmy was put on a plane, then dropped into the Great Lakes never to be seen again, but there's little evidence to suggest. This was true. And President Nixon the only government figure with a motive to kill Jimmy had already resigned from office bought. Our second theory takes more sinister turn in July. Nineteen, seventy, five Jimmy. Hoffa was meeting MAFIOSOS, Tony Pro and Tony Jack at the matches. Red Fox. Restaurant. Jimmy and Tony Pro had been fighting since prison and the meeting was to settle their differences. Jimmy needed Tony pro support. If he was going to be reelected as teamsters union president, officially, the duo never showed and Jimmy got into another vehicle around two, forty, five PM. But that vehicle may have held both Tony's as well as their hitman which brings us to theory number two notorious serial killer and Mafia hitman Richard The iceman Kuklinski killed Jimmy Hoffa. Kuklinski was a monstrous man. He was six foot five and wait three hundred pounds. He had no distinct way of killing his victims. He was careful to never use the same weapon. Twice, his tools range from handguns and grenades to ice picks, chainsaws, hunting knives, and crowbars. He even admitted to shooting a motorist with a crossbow just to try out the weapon, he says most creative weapon was a nasal spray bottle filled with cyanide, his favourite victims, loudmouths, and those who angered him. But he had no problem killing at random eighteen, Kuklinski sold pornographic videos to the Gambino crime family. He built a friendship with mobster, Roy demeo. DEMEO had Kuklinski help was small crimes that I like petty theft, but Cook Linski told Demeo that his dream job was to kill for a living. So one day demeo pointed out a victim at random a man. Man was walking his dog down the streets of New York when Kuklinski's shot him in the head without hesitation after that Kuklinski became the main Hitman for multiple tri-state area crime families including the Genovese family which Tony. Pro Was a part of the mafia named Kuklinski the iceman because he would often store bodies in industrial grade freezers, then dispose of them later. This made it harder for a time of death to be determined in Hartford detectives to solve the crime. But Kuklinski also dismembered bodies tossed them in lakes or lit them on fire in a fifty, five gallon oil drum. Essentially, he knew how to cover up a dead body. As for how we know about this Kuklinski happily brags about his exploits to authors and psychologists. Over the years he took credit for almost two hundred different deaths. In the early two thousands, journalist Philip Carlos spent six weeks interviewing the iceman in prison Carlo published. Kuklinski's stories in his book, the ICEMAN confessions of a Mafia contract killer in two, thousand, six among Cook Linski as many violent confessions was the kidnap and murder of Jimmy, Hoffa by nineteen, seventy, five, Kuklinski. had been working as a Hitman for East Coast Mafia families for almost fifteen years. Yet. Kuklinski didn't know much about Jimmy Hoffa. The two had never met in Carlos Book. The ICEMAN Kuklinski says the order to kill Jimmy came from Tony P. who we can assume Antoni pro. Allegedly Mafia don. Russell Bufalino had permitted tony pro to execute the hit. So Tony Pro offered Kuklinski forty thousand dollars to do the job or roughly one. Hundred Ninety thousand dollars today. Kuklinski preferred to work alone. But agree to work with a team for this specific hit, he could tell it was important. Kuklinski only referred to the others as Gabe, Sal? And Tommy but they were likely fellow, Mafia members, Gabrielle and Salvatore Rubio and Thomas on drita. According to Kuklinski the four men and Tony Pro arrived in Detroit around mid morning on July. Thirtieth Nineteen, seventy, five, the day Jimmy went missing later that day the men drove to the matches Red Fox, restaurant Jimmy. Hoffa was waiting outside when they arrived allegedly tony pro got out of the car and chatted with Hoffa in the parking lot for a moment. Then he walked Hoffa back to the car. Tony Pro got in the front seat and Jimmy Hoffa got in the back. With a crowbar, his hand Kuklinski waited for his signal. After. A couple of miles, tony pro nodded, and Kuklinski knocked Jimmy unconscious Kuklinski. Then drew a hunting knife in positioned it at the base of Jimmy Skull. He thrust the knife directly into. Jimmy. HOFFA's in the group pulled over at a nearby rest stop and put Jimmy's. Into, a body bag. They then threw him into the trunk of the Car Tony Pro one to take Jimmy's body back to New Jersey. So they could put some distance between the crime and the evidence. Kuklinski volunteer to drive the body back while the others took a bus home Kuklinski. In New Jersey that night and went straight to a mob own junkyard in Newark. He. Put Jimmy's body in a fifty gallon drum in doused it with gasoline. Kuklinski says he welded the drum shut and burn it for thirty minutes before bearing it in the junkyard. Later, Kuklinski heard that sal. Gulia had been talking to the feds. It was just a rumor. But as a precaution Kuklinski returned to the Junkyard and dug up the drum, he placed the drum in the trunk of an old car and took the car to a junkyard. It was then smashed into a two by four foot cube in a compressor. Cook Linski believes Jimmy's compacted remains were then sold with a scrap metal to Japan. The detail that Kuklinski used to describe Jimmy's murder was extremely chilling. Kuklinski claimed to have known gyms biggest rival Tony Pro since they were kids. But could Kalinski was known for exaggerating? Philip Carlo had two hundred and forty hours of audio recordings from Kuklinski. Many of his stories became more gruesome and twisted as the tapes went on former FBI agent Robert Garrity. Said, that could Kalinski story about Jimmy was the quote most embarrassing one to date and quote he dismissed the killer as a fantasist and didn't help the Cook Linski couldn't keep his story is consistent. The number of deaths he claimed responsibility for ranged between thirty and two hundred, still officer. Patrick Kane who arrested Kuklinski in Nineteen eighty-six. Believe that Kuklinski was responsible for Jimmy. HOFFA's death. He was quoted saying who is a more likely candidate to do this than him despite that? It wasn't until he was interviewed for Carlos Two, thousand, six buck. That could Kalinski finally took credit for Jimmy? Death? and He seems like the kind of man who loved to sound his own horn, all the fact that he waited. So long to take credit for this famous murder is a bit suspicious. He'd had multiple interviews before Carlo including some with HBO. What seals it for me is, there's no evidence other than Kuklinski's confession. It's a compelling tale certainly. And it matches the known facts. But there's no proof. So as far as believe ability goes, I'm giving this theory, a three out of ten. I have to write this one a little bit higher, Kuklinski likely murdered more people than he was accused of I. Don't think all of his stories are true. But he makes himself seem like a professional and he had some pretty creative ways to get rid of evidence hand dead bodies for that, I'll give this one. A five out of ten is more than capable, and there's a confession. One thing is obvious. Many people had a vendetta against Jimmy Hoffa particularly, Tony? Pro. And Russell Bufalino. If anyone had the motivations and resources to quietly take care of the problem, it was the Italian mob. They may not have contracted the ICEMAN, but they could have cut deeper by pushing one of Jimmy's. To execute the hit. Coming. Up Next, we'll look at frank the Irishman, Sheeran. Now back to the story. On July, Thirtieth Nineteen, seventy, five, Jimmy Hoffa waited outside the matches. Red, Fox restaurant for Tony Pro and Tony Jack to arrive. But according to I heard you paint houses by Charles, Brandt Jimmy Hoffa was expecting a third person that day frank. The Irishman Sheeran which brings us to our third and final conspiracy theory. Frank. The Irishman. Sharon received orders from Russell Bufalino to kill Jimmy Hoffa. Towering at six foot four, Sharon was an intimidating presence. At Age Twenty One, he enlisted in World War Two. There, he got his first taste of the dark side participating in revenge killings, mass executions when Sharon return to. Pennsylvania. He worked as a truck driver. He got married had kids, but he had a hard time supporting them. So he took up additional work as a nightclub bouncer. And engaged in petty theft in nineteen, fifty, five. Sharon was on his usual trucking route when his vehicle broke down. By coincidence Russell Bufalino saw him pulled over and helped repair it from then on Bufalino, took share and under his wing and hired him to act as muscle for the Sicilian mob. Bufalino got Sharon back on his feet. He the. Irishman. Well to intimidate enemies and make a few hits. He even connected Sheeran with Jimmy Hoffa. So that Sheeran could join the teamsters and his stake in the Pension Fund Sharon was a smart man who knew his place? He never asked questions knew when to keep his mouth shut and he had a stomach for crime. which is why he was perfect for mob hits. Though there are rumors of other mafiosos killing Jimmy Hoffa Sheeran story in I. Heard you paint houses is one of the most popular. It even inspired Martin Scorsese's two, thousand, nineteen film, the Irishman according to Shirin Jimmy had gone mad just a few weeks before his disappearance. Jimmy was so desperate to regain his position as teamsters union president, he was willing to expose the mafia to the government. If, he did this. It would hurt them off his access to the teamster pension fund which the Mafia had been stealing from. For years. They had taken billions to invest in their casinos in both Vegas Nevada and Havana Cuba. Unfortunately. Jimmy. Made the mistake of confiding in Sheeran sheeran leg Jimmy, but Sheeran's loyalties were with Russell. Bufalino. SHEERAN and Bufalino tried to warn Jimmy. Not to follow through with his threats, he had to keep the mafia secret, but Jimmy didn't listen. Something had to be done to keep him quiet on July twenty, ninth nineteen, seventy, five a day before he disappeared Jimmy, Hoffa asked Frank Sharon to join him at the meeting with Tony Pro in Tony. Jack. shearing agreed to be there. But when he asked Bufalino for permission to attend the meeting. Bufalino told him to hang back. Sharon knew Jimmy wasn't in trouble. His fears were confirmed when Bufalino told share in the plan, sheeran would personally carry out the hit. On Wednesday, July Thirtieth Nineteen, seventy, five share in claims. He and Bufalino got in the car with their wives and drove to Port Clinton Ohio. They were all headed to Bufalino daughter's wedding in Detroit. On the way they stopped at a diner. The women had coffee. While Bufalino, claim, they had a small errand to run. Sharing, would meet back up with them. Later, that night Bufalino drove Sharon to a private airport where he boarded a small plane in under an hour, he was in Michigan, were an empty car was waiting for him keys in the ignition. Sheeran drove to a brown shingles and occupied home in the Detroit suburbs when he walked in Salvatore reportedly Oh and brothers, Thomas and Stephen on Drita were waiting Burgio. Told Sharon that CECCHI O'Brien Jimmy's foster son was also joining them, but CECCHI was running late delivering fresh water salmon to a teamster official. The problem was Chucky was driving Tony Jacks son's car. A Burgundy Mercury Marquee. According to Shirin, they wanted to use this car for the hit because it was familiar to Jimmy. It's unclear why Sheeran felt this way. But maybe because chucky borrowed the car often and Chucky was one of the few people Jimmy felt he could trust. So if Jimmy saw a familiar car, he was more likely to get inside when Cecchi arrived Bre Guglielmo and Sheeran got in the car Chuckie wasn't informed of the hit, but he was part of the plan. Jimmy wouldn't resist getting in the car. If he saw Cecchi there together, they drove to the matches Red Fox restaurant and arrived around two forty, five PM. Jimmy. was calling his wife. Josephine when they arrived. When. Jimmy made his way back, his. Green. Pontiac. Chucky pulled up beside him. Chucky apologized for being late in Jimmy. Yelled at him. What are you even doing here? Bre Gulia informed Jimmy that he was an associate of Tony Pros. Frustrated Jimmy, yelled at Tony. Pro stood him up. Bystanders were staring. So sheeran spoke up. He told Jimmy that Bufalino wanted to meet with him. Jimmy got in the car and continued arguing for the few miles back to the house there Jimmy and Sharon got out while Burgio and chucky drove away in the Mercury Marquee Jimmy walked up to the front door with Sheeran following close behind Jimmy opened the door to the empty living room. No bufalino no. Mafia. No. Witnesses realizing he had left his gun in his Pontiac. Jimmy panicked and turned sharply bumping into. Sheeran. Jimmy tried to shove past Sheeran to get to the door. But he was unsuccessful Sheeran shot Jimmy twice in the head. Sheeran. Dropped the gun on the floor, gotten his car and drove back to the airport. He boarded the private plane and flew back to Port Clinton Ohio that night to rejoin Bufalino and his wife for the wedding sheeran says the ANDROMEDA brothers cleaned up the house input Jimmy in a body bag. Bufalino told Sheeran. They took Jimmy to a funeral parlor, but you're never confirmed if that was the truth. Following a few anonymous tips, the FBI searched all the mafia own funeral parlors in Detroit for Jimmy's ashes. They found nothing, but they did find Jimmy's hair in the trunk of that Mercury Marquee. However according to Shirin. Jimmy was never in the trunk. The FBI also searched the house where they hit supposedly took place. And while they did find blood, it didn't match Jimmy's still this story gave the FBI enough to question nine men. They believed were involved in the disappearance before a judge, they were Anthony Tony Pro Provenzano. Stephen. And Thomas, and Drena Russell Bufalino Salvatore and Gabriel Guglielmo Chuckie. O'Brien. Anthony. Tony, Jack Jack Loney and of course frank the Irishman Sheeran, they were all represented by Jimmy's former attorney. Bill Bufalino. Every one of them pleaded the fifth sheeran even pleaded the. When asked if the prosecutors yellow pen was yellow since the FEDS had no concrete evidence for a conviction, they offered immunity to anyone who came forward with information. About Jimmy's death or otherwise they wanted to put these men in prison for something. Especially, if they were going to get away with killing Jimmy Hoffa in nineteen, seventy, six charges rolled in Sal, Leo and Tony Pro were indicted with murder charges while Tony. Jack was convicted of tax fraud. Russell Bufalino was found guilty of extortion and the Andretti brothers and Gabri Guglielmo were charged with Labor racketeering meaning they exploited union workers for Prophet then in nineteen, eighty, eighty-two, sixty, two year old. Sharon was found guilty of eleven instances of labor racketeering. He was sentenced to thirty two years in prison. Check Yo Brian was cleared of suspicion by July. Thirtieth nineteen, eighty-two, the US government finally declared Jimmy Hoffa. Dead. Most of those men remain suspects in Jimmy's case remains open today. Sheeran story is accepted by some as a confession. But others close to Jimmy like his foster son Chuckie. O'Brien discredit Sharon's account as a work of fiction. Chucky claim that Sharon was known to be a pathological liar and shouldn't be trusted Jack. Goldsmith CECCHI stepson claimed Sheeran. Story was by far the greatest depiction of a false charge against my stepfather. Goldsmith worked for years to clear his stepfather's name. But let's consider the source here. Perhaps chucky the one person who wasn't. Wasn't charged with the crime is just trying to protect himself. Of course, he's not going to admit to his involvement or say Sheeran story is true. It's also important to note that Frank Sheeran denied involvement with Jimmy's murder for years in nineteen, ninety-five. Sheeran claimed that Salvatore Brazilio had killed Jimmy Hoffa, he didn't confess anything until he wrote his book which wasn't published until two, thousand, four a year after he died. Either way he lied at some point, notably, an early publishing deal for I. Heard you paint houses was thrown out. Sheeran was caught forging documents for the book including a fake letter from Jimmy. The letter was supposedly from the seventies, but forensics determined. It was written in the ninety s and called it laughable forgery. It's clear Sheeran was capable of ally. But the question is, was he doing it to protect himself and the men he was loyal to or was he just another person trying to make a buck off of the Jimmy Hoffa conspiracy due to the lack of evidence, and the fact that most of the suspects are now dead, we'll have to form our own conclusion. Which is why we're giving this a seven out of ten. Even if it wasn't Sheeran, who pulled the trigger events describes seem like a plausible final chapter in Jimmy. HOFFA's life. Jimmy upset the mob and the mob is well mob. If some was a threat, they took care of it. Sharon happened to be one of their most loyal hitmen and he was close to Jimmy Hoffa. I agree the most plausible theory points to Frank Sheeran. But unfortunately after forty four years of searching for Jimmy Hoffa's remains, there may never be a conclusive and his story. His family may never get the closure they deserve. His body may never be found his true story never told Mont one thing's for certain. Karma caught up with the duplicitous union leader. If he'd kept his dealings with the mob, the federal government and the teamsters above board, he never would have gone to that final lunch at the matches Red Fox restaurant. And as the old Sicilian, proverb goes. To kill a dog, you don't cut off its tail. Cut off its head. Thanks for tuning into to conspiracy theories, we'll be back Monday with a new episode. You can find all episodes of conspiracy theories and all other park originals for free on spotify. Of the many resources we used, we found I heard, you paint houses by Charles Brandt in Hoffa shadow by Jack Goldsmith and the iceman by Philip Carlo helpful to our research not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music. But now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like conspiracy theories for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream conspiracy theories on spotify, just open the APP and type. Type conspiracy theories in the search bar until then remember, the truth isn't always the best story and the official story isn't always the truth conspiracy theories was created by Max. Cutler is a podcast studios. Original executive producers include Max, and Ron Cutler sound design by Dick Schroeder, with production assistance by Ron Shapiro, carly, Madden, and Joshua. Kern. This episode of conspiracy theories was written by Taylor bright with writing assistance by Maggie Admire and Stars Molly Brandenburg and Carter Roy.

Joseph Franco Jimmy Brandt Jimmy Hoffa Jimmy Hoffa Franco Jimmy James P. Hoffa Don Russell Bufalino Kuklinski Irishman Sheeran Tony Pro Mafia teamsters ICEMAN HOFFA Jimmy Skull President Nixon FBI Anthony Tony Pro Provenzano Joseph Franko Tony Jack Frank Sharon
Ep 89: Tipped Out's Round Eight Tips

Lace Out AFL Podcast

34:35 min | 6 months ago

Ep 89: Tipped Out's Round Eight Tips

"I'M Jamie Wallace Chris PIPPA here. It's another episode of the single greatest isil tipping. Semi podcast in the world tipped out with Lisette. L. Chiefs every week doodle. Do Hey you going great main football's back tonight? Aren't. Another Thursday night football. You know Thursday night football on on absolutely stoked for tonight's game. I cannot white. It's going to be an absolute bond storm bold. Boston. Actually looking for. A seventeen leg multi going into game by accident. It's got mold legs and centipede. These things it's. I put a multi on using neds gamble responsibly leases. And for some reason, it combined seven league multi intimate leg multi input seventeen leaks together. Made again to walk around with a new house or I'm going to be twenty dollars short. What's the chance of all getting up? These actually a pretty good chance of them. Because when you look at the legs, it's all it's all about one. It's a lot goal. KIKA anytime. Go kick out. Alex sixth and goal. Kicker, ranking Dokic at banking King Goalkeeper. Bolton Pelley go Kiko. And then I also chose to kick one goal, so if four dollars coming forelegs done. Worth the. Think of. It's not like seventy seventy four box or whatever? Just, throw. One edges semi full box to one. You saw through pay to McCain and Ronit and even. We'll see what happens. WE WON'T BE CELEBRATING OUT NEXT. Next podcast when we can fully see each other in the. Face to face going. Royalty, but. If, you want to tell you what we had plans. If say, didn't we? We had the problem we had. We had plane POB sessions. We have we're going. Get all the our community and do some live shows, and that has gone to the. Absolute show us. What can you do good old coverages throws so many spinners up, but you know what they give us lemons. We make some lemonade. We're GONNA turn that she can shoot the chicken salad and it's Kinda starts dull cursed. Versus the bulldogs of the West. And now these game is on Koa and is on Foxtel. Get on! At the time of this recording five minutes to the band that he's how close we go to making sure you get the most up-to-date information I'm calling nail the suns, will we miss simply because it easing Gulf coast that eleven their football of the moment they applying for each other, and are just want to say them win. unknow rails not dead, but you know what just prove last week though I would come in. I'm on the sun's just one among the sands. Mine I'm on Shawny. I'm showing. Donning on of the sons might. I'M GONNA the. Thumbs changes so very confident. With a Capital C. So I'm GonNa go after them interesting that the have decided to rest walking Hanta. Claybon game. I think you WanNa go to tonight tonight. Phone another cloudy running, too. Rain in the forecast and had four weeks off. They've found another one and they've gone. For, every cow, you get an extra way hit. Can you risk the blog after one week? Dum Dum dum and I get everything. That I deserve Oregon the again Kinda we? Has got to be close. Though a really think it's going to be. Apparently, the weather isn't looking. To Update, but I'm rick and I'll be out to Keith tangles agent clock at one hundred and twenty points. What I am looking for interns of wins and we're both going with cracking game of football. Tonight's sons tonight that one at seven fifty pm. Tomorrow on Channel Seven GW s versus the targets of Richmond, Lloyd Jacobs Toby granary. Bubby Hill, it'd. Jackson jaitely admitted mounted injured. Patrick Nice in Josh Keti at with a Twang, string. Cheese you what? This announce the rematch from last year. It is at Joint Stadium. I'm really torn. Who peaky because GW is really need the win, but I haven't won the inside fifty. Can Any game that they've played the she? And I think the lady go to rot when the going gets tough, the turning individually based on that I can become Richmond. And I think I'll just look at that. that. Would line an awful in line Toby grain this week. fired. The heavens. Jeremy Cameron having done anything. Has Been You being he'll be. Ritually crashed the earth. Being. Done a couple ago. That ain't rocky if he's averaging one point two one point three goes game. On and on never prototypes pets. For weekly, news time get one for Richmond Heck. Can you not Richmond just not working hard enough? There was footage during the week showering them when the transition Dan the out of the rain of the ground. They would run the only boy who is doing. The running was lucky field. They just want the downhill skis. You know what they should do. Give footy and go work at the next winter. Olympics. Gold medal after goal medal because. The front runners downhill skis mean the league. Re Richmond Richard of these and. Richmond lose. It says more at Richmond than it will be the joints because it's Johnson hiring. You expect them to do something. August is going to be out. Doing Richmond's too strong. John Who's this week? They've got a wing sick aloft panel something. Based on four that definitely possible for the new that absolutely not right them. What so ever tell you do right Damore friend? It's going to be the set Diagram Setai July twenty fifth. Time if you can say that one I, five PM at the Jabber the hot. The cotton blurs versus north. Now you're talking about now. Change for the sons Carlton have made no change after they stole defeat from the jaws of victory last week against North normal bringing Zohar Anson the Hyphen Luke, Davies unity and Nick Lachey remember. We were talking about the injury that they enter in the Roy. That's full. gooding's for them. They've dropped item Bona's injured. Ziebel's injured molly. Williams are omitted interesting and Mason would. He's as well seuss so. Not Afraid to swing the axe Carlton Nar Change, and with no change I would say that's another victory for the blues, and if they get this one, they seriously going to be pushing towards a falls birth. It's going to be on Foxtel and once again on Kiro, so if you haven't got. pay-tv humour after the saw, an apple fond of energy to get some action because it's not going to be on freeway. North unveil. Their Shell. Themselves Hal I finished the season last year we had a good chat about on. I brought out some of the best. We've had all week and yet we lost viewers by the truckload. Counting. They just playing good footy. He's got humming along Nasi. Rumors Harry MCI? Mark not playing at this particular stage. It was just some Ruma going but. We'll see what happens on the big diamond. Looks of the. From trying Kirti property yet. Monje any detained Any wide. Yes. It's probably going to be a light Chinese, so we'll see what happens so once again. We're actually quite unanimous at the moment, three other members of the three for three three four three particular moment. Roddy Art. Four former employees What. Was your son. No asks former employees. The company we work for. That was there at that was an ad campaign Nar three-fifths? Ninety three. Thousand for struggling unity. Sure. They wouldn't even that crave. And I have the penguins with the with the Lee Pan in the mail. No, but they did have the girl who went shopping can go to right. She was pretty. Harvest! Part Pricey Orange stuff. Blue Stop now, offering free for free, he was another company. Google what I'm doing you google. Google Anopheles more important things to talk about Richie's. Whoever loses this game, the season's over if it's not already three thirty five PM another Fox Fox elegant Fisher. Dynasties wakened three thirty five PM at the Swansea. City, versus the hawks. After last week. You would have thought that. The saw the swans wouldn't have a chance on on the swollen this week with these one. Bell. Louis Tyler Ling same gray read. The Poland style had worn is out colonial-era John. He's out. Hugh injured start injured will highwood injured. You look at hopeful Henderson out Tim. O'Brien I haven't swung. The axe scrimshaw an Kagan. Brooks be have been broadening. I'll just let the talent that they bring an inked Lewis Tyler. Rausing style, we're not highs didn't hasn't Sifi fannies fate Sydney. Just give him some toll. I'm semi grazing Samory. Dean of US first guy for quite long to same read. Urban Bank light at high. Them with the swans I'll just afterward assault mama did the hold on last week longest. That will brandon go, which is hats. This wanting to bay football last week. That would just beaten by on the not. Yet. Watching this guy is a big like watching bloody. The the classic touring cars you know doesn't. Donald owed donegal's. Having a crack the really it's not, it's not. It's not Ferrari they will. These it's I. These one looks like a legend's Gyn. Legends, Guy. It's it's all of us to light. It's like a reunion. Isn't it so reunion, too? You know five years ago as tall as a pet for flags near the belding enough spoons I'm surprised at checkout since. And this can. Be played at light. Probably seasonal maybe season. Two Hundred Roy yelling pleading flakes. You didn't playing that early one. Green around. He's a good player and he gunston. Italy, I'd say. He's a easyjet. He's one of those places that just gets shot for maintained. And he's I east. I goal against those last week from the from the pocket was just. Even married that crew cut. No, he's got that kind gowns. Little Bit log John. Cena Johnson had the crew. He's. Everything. It just doesn't look right he's. Going is relatives. That's a song that you correze towards the. Still. The American hero he's just he's just making movies making movies. He's apponator. Wouldn't say Paul Financial. Can you go and tell him that to? Not Now. GimMe the fall now shuffling. The Attitude Adjustment Oregon in. He's very funny and walkers. I'll have I haven't watched cop lockers. On nowadays on Foxtel. On. Netflix will stain. Oh Prime! It's not on Disney. Definitely GonNa have to have a bit of a water that, but yeah he's. He's a good egg, motivated interaction or already high. WHO's action? You like to watch and I'll tell you what this is another one of those games. I think you might WanNa, Choon into Oregon is the game of the die. It is your mob Jamie. Wallace port. Adelaide, versus the science at the traditional home ground of football, being the Adelaide Oval Haute Adelaide have made some changes and I'll tell you. What if you reckon Jamie was? Happy last week are getting. A Win. Against Carlton You White and he the join. He's voice. When are I? Read this out in bready but Mitch Georgiadis. Raleigh bought a down ladies and gentlemen. Are metered Justin Westhoff. An injured. Sh even knowing what? Security Avoiding Sinclair met Pack Nick, Hind Jack Loney committed judge, battle, injured and Ron. Boone's a mid. Capital of the capital of colts, working perfectly at the moment of just guy with the winks of the AFL at the moment. Net your mom, you just playing good football at the moment. I cannot fault you in what you've been doing. Your form guide is in size new. You've one four last five. The science. Challenge boy that did lose the fremantle the week before. They haven't been super convincing when they've lost. They've lost. Pretty convincingly. Heavily beaten by colored and Fremantle they They lost that one when I should've on that one. AS WELL SO I. Think, you would have learned a lot from your game last week, and you're not going to fall asleep. Lucky deed against the Blues Wigan can see you coming out and making a statement and. Mr Happy Mr Happy head your coach. He won't let that happen either. Tell you what this Saturday struck yourself. Now what's just and you're going to have? Charlie Dixon. Crushing skulls and breaking hot. We just bodywork, and then you're gonNA. Have this kid 'cause mix Georgiadis? Flying for everything could be a wild ride. It could be just hard flying into Mega Betta. Tomi Crawford Cap Porta, light versus signed Qaeda, and the loser will have the toilet block a bit of an in joke between me and Jamie and. I'll tell you what I think. I think you've just got these one, but I'll reckon a coup A. Bed, but I still think that you're GonNa win that one so Seifi rural unanimous uses. This is staggering. Continuing to Sunday because on Sunday? Where I guy one, I fall I the traditional of Sunday against you remember when the Sunday games used to be Sydney, swans taken off at around about twelve. It was better than it was almost as good as having fishing ships for Hang Iva it was watching the CD guy early game. It was magnificent. This one's going to be on Cairo and foxtail allied versus. Essendon. Showed something last week in isn't having been showing anything she. But once again have to go with Laura. Averages Bryce Gibbs is in the squad Elliott. Himalayan Lachlan movie and Rory Atkins No ads at this particular moment. Aaron Francine Dylan Clock James. Stewart Mati gleason Tom. China's Tom Cutler in Andrew Andrew Phillips emitted and the Hookah. Injured! Chart, Hey, do we play these? WHO Be Full at the moment. well to say S and. Interesting that they've decided that Atalay decided to bring back, BRASCO was because. you know he's over there on a long contracts and he's worth a lot of money. And they brought him back for the fifth time in a long time this week. Even check in to first as there as well. Yes, sure there, they. Lost for yeah, they gave up a lot. If you have a look at it and I got absolutely smash last week Essendon by the doggies they got over north by a couple of goals in the grime wasn't good lookin', debate. The Paul is on that. Day. I think it was which was a surprise to everybody. The wake before I get. Bayton, cotton and they win against Sydney boy a goal. They haven't got a great form forlorn. And with WHO can applying, it's going to make it harder for them as well. Take show to beat a full. Gulf for an upset at Adelaide twin first guy with ye against and if that happens. Are More God. You'll be wanting to listen to the next episode of is yet because I will be going nuts, Yup! You'RE GONNA. I was GONNA. Say I'M GONNA S and didn't. Just based on no fom home adulated Oh. Agree. I? Die The die is coming up next as a lot of foxtel games this week. I'm not so sure if you've noticed that this one is a channel seven game. It is west coast at optus diety versus calling would. byerly Williams Ian Edwards Zine Josh Roth Mean Luke Shuey unique raid. Brennan Achy out injured for the Eagles are calling raid. Soya gets a guy for the first homing, Longtime Doc- Cameron Magda Josh, Thomas. Sharon Berg, Cowie and vodka injured to Galley looks like it could be seizing ending. Whisk show to bit last week. A desolate showed something last week. They did bring up one by four goals against the dockers. Going ball that three on the trot. A link to go a big well. You can see what calling a lot one last week. Fifty seven to thirty five. and. Goals came from Galley. So you take that they lose. No Avenue to go, yeah, the Beck launch playing pretty good food, but they know avenue to go, and with that I'm going. The Eagles take these one had josh. Kennedy wasn't good to get some full mouse wait. It was well. It's funny. Isn't that only I? Think was true using three years ago? He would just my everything in that would fifty and keep everything as long as. I JUST As an opposition Against Him I didn't see him. Want other support our than what I did. Have Sci, he's not he. You used to have used to have dialing and they used to have Katie, and it used to be the one to worry about was Katie and dialing would make cameo. Now flipped dialing the guy, he was crunching packs last week. It was mocking virtually. Everything and Kennedy's the one you probably could. Not Put your best defender on anymore. He's still dangerous. Marjorie one bay Oj last week. He won the glendenning middle. Whatever it's called these. What falls now, which is is a bag and get me started on that. Off. Just reading between the lines, a cat, see the full line three in a row. COLLINGWOOD's still be at the moment. I of believe that the. Premie she favorites. The bookies signed calling with that disguises show. Anything. And I'm gone with the wiggles. I'm going with the wiggles tight at home, and then just slightly push climbs for some hosp timber action. They got a seat night at the moment. This potentially is going to pop them up into the top four if I take these. If my controversial pep. Look what Collingwood is using this kind as a bit of a bit of a rotate squad a little bit. Don't think. By the adopted Cameron Jack. Just feel it just trying to bring some of those younger players into a gang. You're gonNA loubier something now. You're not doing the eagles. The Eagles are not not the eagles. I wish to get I. Get that, but. That fantastic footy the thing is. Calling would win on the way CAIN. It's GonNa. Push him unless Brisbane. Lose pushing into outright sick and if they lose this game. And Secure gold. Coast Win and win, it could. Go too much preceding. It'll push the. Bad Guy. Saif say they win. These virtually locked into that talk for at least for the next couple awake, so they can sort of playing with the next four guys being released available on the Lice facebook page because I tell you what you footy lights out. If, they dropped this one potentially. Potentially could drop Dander Edsall the once again. You don't WanNa be. You WanNa be. Locking, your spotty early, and not having to royal on other teams losing for you to make your spot, so I wouldn't be with policies early. Okay All right. She wanted to have thoughts. Let's talk about this one. The days versus the Brisbane lines at Melbourne's traditional Queensland Harvard Metric owns died him. This one is another guy that's on foxtel and tire. Big changes of being swung for the Aaron Vandenboucke. Unfortunately, he's effort. Capital wakes fractured cheek by in the game in the first quarter plays dot set. We're Kinda. MEC- Mesa's grants. I Love Tomlinson, Neil, Bulletin Joel Smith Knife and Jones and Tom McDonald August nine. Brisbane Loins within Archie Smith CON ABANDON HEERDEN. Coleman and race medicine being named. Big Out for them is going to be Steph Martin that virtually means that Mexico has got the soul to himself, WHOA! Did you see. Did you see the First Class Service? He was giving against big boy. Josten magic. God's the potential is going to happen again so for Melbourne to get over the line. That's a sort of stuff that the need to do. The midfield need to be working as high as I have protracted needs to keep up. He stays up all the like I'm just going to throw something. Yeah, he. Anybody at the WHO is said that Christian Patriarch has gone. PAS DUSTY You are a complete idiot, because that is not what the conversation is about what is being said if you listen to the whole conversation, is that poor track his playing better football than dusty. These she he's got a five five far greater. Run to get to where dusty is being simple Zenica and you're saying that the truck is better than dusty Onsang th on the performances so far this year track has been more influential for Melbourne and more consistent than dusty has yes crossed correze across correze. Dusty the length of the Flemington Straighten Front duckie couldn't play them. A said he could never said that. Oregon enough fifty flies and fly him out into midfield. The moment if you WanNa compare the pay. Like, the Super Red for tracker is playing Beta football at the moment. Dusty is that's all I'm sign saying he's a better player. Overall I just want to sit that straight. That saying. I with Brisbane. If not more time I love what I say are just hope that they bring what they did last week this week and it could be a very very good game. There's just too many winners across the park the moment. For the lines. and. Just what I'm generally caught it about. Your food. You've got Holly Banal as a full would pocket. And at the other end Charlie Cameron. It's pretty cool. To throw a couple, others in there as well show throw one aimed. You've got the weighed. A weight carfully Luke Luke, Jackson. And at the other end you've got. He put a mixed i. It's just it's just gorgeous. Instead of in the middle, you have Zorko Neil and maclagan. Verses Brazier versus pretrial Oliver Varney. Is GonNa be a lot of? Causey? Pick in one corner versus. All the dude from Calton a color guard from Geelong just flying everywhere at the moment Taika Mac. It's just. It's. Doc of each Daniels. Back and then you've got off the. You've got silom coming off one and he is actually got some forms well. It's GonNa be a one team's GONNA. Blow a one team is gonNA. Blow the other team off the POC. Yup or it's gotTa be close. That's the way I don't think GonNa be two or three. This is not going to be a two or three gala. It's GonNa. Be a look close up. One to two at the most, or it's going to be five, possibly due to the other team, a can't say being that made range. Do you know what I'm genuinely concerned with YEP? You guys being Tom McDonald being. And you just lose your full woods like? 'cause he pick. It basically gets The left out of the guy. So this is what I'm saying. Don't bring me. On care about nine thousand reputations anymore. He hasn't done anything for two years. Don't bring you mean we saw hell vibrant and exciting night last week these when I didn't have McDonnell Danny. If you gotTA blame blame on a wing. or You bring one of the other ones in the one that I could probably see them bringing mopey. Neo bullen to do a job on somebody. Yeah all they WANNA. Have Tomlinson on a wing. He's full Muslim fantastic either. Maybe they'd bring. Maybe they bring the old bull jars, and just say I. Want you to just to smash and crush bodies Wouldn't bring. All would not bring toll McDonalds at all. Would you put you put someone like a Malcolm into the middle and move heading onto the half with them become a penalty. Now I actually got one, Tom McDonald anywhere near on at the moment, because you saw what happened even the wait before when we played goal Carson, he was out for the game as soon as he left, the goal was open. He will. He wasn't just kicking a Tom kick it to Tom. A tank. which was something choice? Throw him on the throw him under the wing. You MOGOLLON, the wing! Let him run around as a few phone Bulaq. Even having Thrown, at centre half back. If you want to, and have then you can have Oscar McDonald's tiding auditor, but would not live near afford one. East too much liability at the moment. He's almost nine lane. Yeah. It's. Just GonNa be a wing. He couldn't find the way I. Mean just because this guy and he couldn't just. He's not he's not a big tank with author of Egypt needs just needs to Ronald I. Crash Packs saw me down back night. Where he started these Korea, what a throw him back. And Putnam. What was your neck with Beckman? Oh, no I was one of them all right. So you're gonNA have the lines. The lines as well to. Get across hello comet or the Final Guy Monday, July twenty seven, twenty, twenty I ten PM. I Walk my Monday night games. It just breaks up no more masses on and no more big brother and. Masters shifts finished and. The only thing that people have to do is watch. Family wants a wall of. What a series of master ship it was that she. Absolutely stunning. I'm. I'm glad Lauren what the other one. Okay I I'm. Emily learning. Media Wow well then. I'm glad Amelie we need learn. It goods Asian. You know what's going to get back. The hosts that was what was good about it. You hosts just. Fresh. These power called podcast for awhile. Maybe we should get new host. Squads on at. Fremantle vs Geelong. On and I. have to go the cats. Off the other cats but united. Really cases that far away already, so we have virtually across the board, exactly the same. Question My. Question Artist Freshmen have noticed you've had the. We've had the I call it the fix sure. would. On. Wings is week either Yup into Wednesday. Are, you can food Tuesday and Wednesday night things. Often I. It's hard to say yes, or now at this particular time for the simple fact, we just don't know what's going to happen. We just don't now. What's GonNa Happen in terms of? What's it? GonNa? Look just trying to put the Guy Dean. It's as simple as that. I'm disappointed disappointed. With being in the hub, and now we got him to do more Internet travel and play like fifteen full games in fifteen day goes something ridiculous. Traveling Look at some of those guys and longest the fixture Iran's Nov twelve has been released on the facebook page of Lisette because that's just food. 'cause we love Ellison's. Sometimes at traveling full full wakes mourns one of them. Holly travel at all and a how they worked out. and. But it's the season locker, said if you win the flag these seasons probably. The. It's not going to have an asterix next to it. All you think everything that's going on right, and this is an example on neither side a lot. and. I only agree with that. They always say that you know the premiership medallions. You got every Playa who played at least a game or whatever? And on agree with that. I think he played on grain. Foreign all die that Sushi. With the right, the Games are being pumped out at the moment. If you plan you be three or four days, you can't maintain that. This might be the you're the guy know if you've played one game for the club. Dating, something guy that. Why because it's just such. A. Obscured Ski Obscurity Than It's normally being. Yep Well. I'm going to have much. I'm filthy. Yeah, because you and I know you an eye montaigne and your chain Yup. We play each other on anniversary of one hundred fifty. I'm sure about that. Are you sure? OSITIVE! You want to check the beanies. I'm filthy for the Al Game At one Hundred Fiftieth Anniversary game. He's going to be played in the. Territory. You know what kind of. A love you played in the Port Adelaide jump let's. Should make a traditional. Have the Road Jumba with the wrong the wrong. Have Roy. Proper Jumba? Love, or would love to see. The top's coming in. Just just to remus dislike the ATM sign. I'm just saying I missed a sense of occasion, but. One. Hundred Fiftieth Anniversary game. Of on crowd in. The sense of. We talk about the the white another. This is not a traditional podcast, but Yet. All Day today. The radio was going along the lines of sixteen main sawed for forty. Dining! When we talk about, we're GONNA go into these a hell of a lot more on, Tuesday, not a guarantee. Because, that is just A. And I'm I'm just are revived. The whoever thinks of these things has gotten no audie. And like someone say there's probably a lot of little things that need to be tweaked before this thing gets feast. Already so let's talk about that. Choose I know, but just leave the guy. Alone Can something be sacred Knicks to change the shape of the Bowl Najah on the side of the ball because it's easier to mark I'm just going to give a fair warning to listeners on cheers. Pepsi is GonNa Fall into the athletes athletes. Traffic and you know it's going to end up. Not Now I'm GonNa say he's that. There's a constitution. Fell football official rules of the guy that tumbles came up with. In the eighth century and one of those was eighteen minutes side. If you break it. You're breaking the constitution. You're breaking the history. It's the mob. It's everything. Right. I'M GONNA go into a mole on shoes. Dine off because I didn't really feel the about these. Rambling yelling filthy, but I'm not feel about speaking year. Through the tips of these wake Merola on board with virtually everything is just a capitalist lawyer Games the Adelaide game. In a couple of the going to it because you've already heard but high churning, thank you for tuning in today's. Thank you for tuning in tomorrow. When evie of her, these more importantly have a great weekend. Hope your team wins. Heady love you tapes, Jamie! Lack and Like math. Allah is tipped out with Lisette. Chips every week. Dude, a little, have a great week and hopefully you'll tell him wins. Seasons.

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Buried Treasure: "A new take on the Hoffa mystery"

Skullduggery

55:49 min | 1 year ago

Buried Treasure: "A new take on the Hoffa mystery"

"The July thirty thousand nine hundred seventy five Jimmy Hoffa went to meet somebody in the parking lot of suburban Detroit restaurant and was never seen again Hoffa had once been one of the most powerful union bosses in the country the former leader of the teamsters and his disappearance and presumed murder prompted a massive nationwide f. b. i. investigation that lasted for decades and was never resolved now a new book shed startling light on on the case it was written by an author with the most improbable of windows into what may have happened Jack Goldsmith Harvard law school professor and former top the Justice Department official who stepfather was for years the FBI's chief suspect in the case Hoffa's longtime right hand man Chuckie O'Brien Goldsmiths Book is a sweeping story that encompasses HOFFA's rise to power his bitter feud with Bobby Kennedy and his ties to the mafia bosses across the country but most of all it is a tale of goldsmiths up and down relationship with O'Brien an enigmatic figure the author called that and we'll talk to Goldsmith and explore the still lingering mysteries about Hoffa's disappearance on this episode of buried treasure because people have gotta know whether or not their president's across well I'm not a crop I told the American American people I did not trade arms for hospital my heart to my best intentions still tell me that's true but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not I did not have sexual relations with that one there will be no lies we will honor the American people with the truth and had nothing else we are now joined by Jack Goldsmith professor of law at Harvard University former Assistant Attorney General in charge of the office of Legal Counsel and the author of in Hoffa's shadow auto a stepfather a disappearance in Detroit and my search for the Truth Jack Welcome to skulduggery thanks for having me so I gotta say there are not not a lot of books that blow me away when I read them but yours certainly did I've known you for years in your many iterations at Harvard and before that it justice but I had no idea that your stepfather was Chuckie O'Brien chief suspect in the murder of Jimmy Taufa yes he was he became my stepfather when I was twelve years old he married my mom's six weeks before Jimmy Hoffa disappeared I didn't have any idea who Jimmy Hoffa was when when he came into my life he had been kind of hanging around for three or four months he and I were very very close we've grown very close in the few months just before the Hoffa disappearance and then suddenly on July thirtieth nineteen seventy five this thing happened and it just embellish our lives so because our audience and smae not remember or have read about some of the many characters in the book let's just sort of take some time and you know go through it who was was Jimmy Hoffa and why was he such an important influential figure in the nineteen fifties sixties and into the seven rice so Hoffa was does the best known and most consequential Labor leader as you're saying the nineteen fifties and sixties and unlike today this is the time when labor unions were very important and very powerful title he led he was the president of the teamsters union per decade starting in nineteen fifty seven but for a decade before that he was from Detroit had built a power base in the middle of the country he was a truly brilliant labor organizer Labor bargainer and Labour leader he brought many the hundreds of thousands of people from the lower classes to the middle classes with much better benefits he was widely widely admired by people in the union that was the the the good side of Jimmy Hoffa and it was a great side the other side of Jimmy Hoffa he is that he was corrupt by any measure he didn't much care about the law and and he basically view the laws just to get around when he wanted to achieve something he had criminal associations going back to his earliest days in labor including being really starting in the nineteen forties with organized crime I in Detroit and then around the country some of his arrangements organized crime we're kind of necessary adjustments due due to the fact that the mob controlled the unions he was trying to reach in various parts of the country and other parts of it had to do with his the extensive loans he gave from the teamsters pension fund to basically finance Ma projects most famous Las Vegas before we go onto some of the other characters I just want to dig in a little bit deeper on Hoffa because corrupt Acti- organized crime but seems to me that you make the case in your book that unlike other corrupt Labor leaders who were stealing from the pension engine funds living high off the Hog Hoffa actually was driven by power I'm sure but also wanting to help working Americans absolutely so he was getting his piece on the loans he was getting he was getting side deals on everything that was involved he had a my stepfather chucky estimates many many tens of billions of dollars in cash stored and a lot of places and and I'm sure he's right about that but you're right he did not live a fancy life he spent literally nearly all of his waking hours seven days a week literally working on the Union and he used that money as you say to enhance his power but also to enhance the power of the union he was whether it was buying off politicians or buying off judges or paying someone to help him win a Labor contract or whatever it took he was not using that money I said crop I said conventional corruption objectively he was breaking the law all over the place and paradoxically he he had a kind of strict personal moral code he was a highly moralistic he didn't drink he didn't smoke you didn't gamble and he didn't like people who did but I I gotta say using the teamster pension fund to dole out loans to mobsters to finance Las Vegas Casinos that sounds pretty corrupt to me and you just wonder yeah I mean we're we're teamster members who are so loyal to him were they even aware of this and when it became public you know were they outraged yes there's a story by a Adraskand who was the longtime well regarded Labor reporter for the New York Times and at the height of the McClellan committee stuff in the late fifties when Bobby Kennedy was really going after Hoffa and basically exposing a lot of this stuff raskin went to local to ninety nine in Detroit this big story he basic interviewed a couple of hundred people and he said all but two said we don't care about that stuff we laugh off a because he's done so much for us in the story I kept coming across over and over in my research was that members would say yeah we know he's getting some on the side but we don't care because he's with us that he's helping us and he can do it every once with that's so let's talk about Bobby Kennedy because he plays such an important role in this story he's at that point his brother John Kennedy is the senator from Massachusetts he's he's the chief counsel to this Senate Committee the Mcclellan Committee investigating corruption in the unions and he hates Hafa he develops a vendetta and wants to get him at all costs tell us the story of how that developed his animosity Hoffa and how that that extended all the way into when he becomes attorney general in the Justice Ambaum Hoffa hated him just as much backed by so bobby Kennedy was barely out of law school he was in his thirty s when he got a job as the chief investigator for this committee that was looking into Labor racketeering and it was actually bobby's idea and he kinda hi and he was looking for a cause he was influenced by the Commission in the early fifties which had elevated him to the vice presidential candidate in the nineteen fifty six election. I think that's right yeah anyway bobby had seen how that type of hearing could raise the profile he wanted to raise his brother's profile he wanted to raise zone profile he was looking around for an issue issue and he's stumbled onto labor racketeering and once he saw found it and once he discovered Hoffa and what he was about he immediately became attracted to it because Kennedy was a highly moralistic guy he from the beginning thought Hoffa was this evil guy unambiguously evil he never saw the good side of offer that we just discussed cost so they started going after each other even before the hearing began in early nineteen fifty seven they were at dinner together that was arranged for them to meet one another and and they took an immediate dislike to one another each each one of them Hoffa represented the things that bobby hated most you know corruption lack of education education a criminal and Hoffa thought that bobby was everything he ate most rich on educate overeducated never dirty his hands handed it really made him mad because Bobby Kennedy was a boost guy is off it would say so he thought it was hypocritical on top of it and bobby went after him hard early on in these hearings he's very famous hearings in the fifties and for for years who after Hoffman these hearings and he really broke every rule in the book and Herbs and congressional hearings and he but he wasn't able to put off away well we're the rules in the book that Bobby Kennedy broke when he was investigating some of them were legal rule some of them were ethical rules also for example he would you don't see this anymore he went when these when the Prophet did not take the fifth he was one of the few people who didn't take the fifth but everybody body else took the fifth and by the way Hoffa advise them all take the fifth especially the teamsters and Kennedy would literally make fun of them for taking the fifth he would call them babies and wimps and things like that for taking the fifth so he was kind of abusing their implication of of their constitutional rights he was in bed with journalists leaking stories to the journalists were loved bobby then and of of course hated the teamsters hated the mob so he was leaking in advance what he was going to prove and it in you know in a way that seemed wrong at the time he was abusing the tax process he was looking through tax records and away he wasn't supposed to at one time he leaked it in violation of relevant criminal law he was pretty pretty much out of control now Hafa was a bad guy and the TV for bad guys so there were two side. I'm not saying that this wasn't something to go after but bobby was sure of his caused both in the fifties and when he became attorney general and we didn't care about the rules I want to pick up on that because you write about once he becomes attorney general. RFK is abusing the the surveillance powers of Justice Department and the FBI spying on Americans and you raise the point that the problem is in our law enforcement system one is when you investigate the man not the crime and that that's what he was doing what I want to ask you about and I said this before the show started this the book is brilliant on many many different levels and one is your own personal involvement in this story and I want you to talk about how Chuck O'Brien story intersects intersects with your personal store your professional story at the Justice Department and that gets into this whole question surveillance right so when I was a kid in teenager is still under Turkey's influence completely he would always rail against Bobby Kennedy hated Bobby Kennedy and he would tell me that Kennedy and I didn't really understand what he was talking about at the time the Kennedy went after tournament all these illegal things to him in the fifties and sixties and who's doing illegal surveillance that it was breaking the law but getting away with it he called it back up and Chucky Chucky went back up eh was that when the government investigates you for violating a law that they violate the law themselves and no one cares because it's the government and no one's GonNa enforce the law against them and he also told me that there's all this illegal surveillance against them that there was what he called a famous Supreme Court case in which he won he said I didn't take seriously as a teenager I remember it and I didn't take it seriously when I went to law school and I didn't pursue it but I did stumble upon it when I was working in the Justice Department as as head of oh well see I I was working on this program and in connection with that and this is this is her first donald onto to to this entire episode I was reading Fourth Amendment cases to try to get up to speed on the fourth amendment because I knew something stellar wind program. Being the this Justice Department's domestic wiretapping right and and this thing fell in my lap and it was my job to the head of O. L. C. had to approve the program's legality every six weeks and it had a lot of problems and I was trying to figure out the problems uh-huh and what I could do to save the program anything and in the middle of doing that I was reading these fourth amendment cases and I was reading a famous case in the late sixties and I came across to citations -tations one was O'Brien versus United States and the other one was Hoffa versus the United States. This is a very stressful of my life when I was doing this and I was just shocked when I saw that look at brand of the cases read them they were cases about Hoffa and O'Brien and my stepfather and they did involve illegal surveillance especially if Turkey was clear in his case by during by the Kennedy Justice Department and FBI in the early sixties there was a case where chucky spring court ruled of that they had legally surveilled him in violation of his right to counsel because they listened to a conversation with his lawyer and the Supreme Court vacated the conviction so when I I read this in the middle of doing my own work on seller wind it was discombobulating for a lot of reasons first of all I was shocked Chucky was right about that he was in the large right right about that second of all it I pointed me to this whole world of really massive illegal surveillance that was going on in the fifties and sixties especially with regard regard to microphones as opposed to our tapping it was clear in the microphone case third of all the bugs in the microphone case where as you explained explain the book we were more egregious because that involved basically they were black bag jobs where the FBI would illegally without warrants enter somebody's home implant implant or offices and plant bugs in their office actually have to break into the home depot the bugs they needed to do that and and they were doing that for years under under J Edgar Hoover under Jabber Hoover approved by one of the interesting things that I discovered was approved by the Justice Department with these awful opinions these really conclusively Blue Serie Not really serious legal opinions that basically blessed this also the supreme court starting really in the forties but in the fifties and sixties made it very clear that this was US legal and with the Justice Department blessing hoover just kept doing it until it became public in the nineteen in the middle of the six. I think we should emphasize that you're discovering this at exactly at the same time that you're reviewing justice weapon legal opinions authorizing the torture program and weren't wire-tapping wire-tapping which we're also not on really solid found and yes and to make a long story short it became it wasn't crystal clear to me when I was in the Justice Department apartment but it started to crystallize became much clear later when I was talking to Chuck and researching the book this was basically what I was experiencing with justice -partment opinions that were opportunistic to put it mildly in justifying a secret surveillance program was exactly what chuck was complaining about correctly at turned out as as I discovered in in an incredible details discovered was going on in the fifties and sixties and really going back before that so I was in the middle of something that was very much like what he described the Justice Birmingham in doing for a long time and it really hit home to me and there's another very kind of moving another very moving dimension into this story which is you had been estranged from your stepfather when you were younger but I think already may be going to college you learning about Chunkys archies involvement in criminal activities and corruption and he didn't approve of it it was embarrassing to you you're also eventually rising up your career we are and so you stopped talking to him basically we were very close when I was in high school when I went to college and Law School I began to grow apart from him and I basically blew him off I would just decided that for a whole bunch of reasons including my career about to put to find a point on it that I needed to separate myself from him because this was the guy who he did have serious MoD associations he was the guy who committed a lot of crimes he was the leading suspect in the disappearance and I was partly worried about my career partly worried about my safety and partly I just grew to think it's not something I admire so I blew him off and then we reconciled as you're suggesting after I left the Justice Department and the process S. that I began to reconsider him when I discovered literally literally when I discovered this O'Brien versus the United States citation in the middle of stellar wind and then very very stressful episodes I went through and the government really stressful I thought about chucky the whole time it's not like I changed my ideas on a dime but when I got out and and I would just view the world differently frankly and over the next six months I thought about a whole lot of things and I eventually asked him for forgiveness for basically blowing them off with no oh great reason he was a wonderful father to me for blowing off for twenty years and he accepted me back into his life without question we've been very close over since Mr Very briefly explain why that period was so stressful particular what a man named David Addington says your we're going to dredge up old quote I guess I I guess I use it in the Book Fair Enough Okay Yeah so look it was as I came up on especially the warrantless wiretapping stuff and the interrogation black site stuff in the middle it had been going on for a couple of years had been all legally vetted it had been all legally approved and there was no one there's some people that were questioning the warrantless wiretapping south there was no question the the other the interrogation stuff and I got there and not just on my own with help of others it became very apparent that these things were very deeply Leila's laud awed now they also were deemed to be the two most important intelligence programs going on in the government there were absolutely vital to keeping al Qaeda at bay into keeping the country safe Dave so when I started to question the legal basis for it you can imagine the anger and disruption concerned causing the government. You're referring to a quotation Asian from David Addington who was the Vice President's Council Cheney's counsel and basically when I I let him know about what we'd concluded about the Donald chart-topping program he said something to the effect of if you rule that way you'll have the blood of the one hundred thousand people who die in the next attack on your hands and let me say I don't alling David was I don't Dave it was being candid that's the way he saw the world he wasn't actually this is something that people to understand about it he wasn't trying to pressure me he was describing realities frankly frankly he didn't have to say that for me to understand that those were the stakes that's the way we saw the stakes that's why it was so stressful there are so many roads we can go down with this Ah Interview but I should point out just to buttonhole this that in spite of Addington quote you stood your ground you said that these warrantless was wire tapping program was not legally justified part in in part and it led to a big blow up in which a number of top then then Justice Department officials backed you up threatened to resign led by James Comey who was the deputy attorney general at the time time and Robert Mueller who is the director of the FBI exactly right names that we are well familiar with today they're even more famous in let's get back to the HOFFA store okay because the Kennedy Justice Department goes after him relentlessly indicts him multiple times Kennedy is of course assassinated in nineteen sixty eight but HOFFA is by that point already convicted he's been jail prisoner went to prison in sixty seven sixty seven and Richard Nixon becomes president nine hundred sixty nine Hoffa wants out of jail and you tell this this fascinating story about an apparent payoff the livered by none other than your stepfather Chuckie O'Brien from the mob to some unidentified person at the Madison Hotel in Washington but you leave the strong impression this was a payoff to do the Nixon White House to get Hafa out of jail yeah by the way it wasn't from the mob it was Hoffa's cash that was one of the things that so let let me just tell the story and I'll tell you why included in the book so there have been long been rumors and a lot of people have claimed that there were payoffs and a lot of people claim they made the payoff off to someone in the Nixon administration and they're about eight different versions of the story to get out of jail or to impose the condition on Hoffa or to keep coughing in jail they're all these rumors as I talked about in the book the White House the Hoffa monopoly died the hop investigators drilled this to the ground the Watergate investigative journalistic ground they couldn't figure out where this rumor came from what the basis for it was financially we where the money came from Chucky told me he ended one of the stories that he told me over seven years and I got to got pretty good Italian when he was telling the truth and when not he basically told me several times exactly the same way of the time when Frank Fitzsimmons who was the president of the teamsters seated Hoffa who succeeded hopper hopper put him there basically and it was under enormous pressure I talk the chapter I think is one of the most amazing book for what I dug up in the next archives and the machinations that the Nixon White House was brilliant and brilliantly corrupt in in getting maximum leverage in terms of finance and political help in exchange for doling out legal papers basically pardons and non-prosecution and things like that in any event chucky claims I believe him that he picked up this large briefcase that he said a million dollars in it from Fitzsimmons his office and two hours later took it to the Madison Hotel to the fifth floor and the guy opened the door and he said he put it in there and walked away and I wasn't sure whether whether whether to include this in the book is there were a lot of things that didn't include in the book because I just wasn't sure they were credible and I tried to corroborate everything one way or another I eventually included looted this story up because I believed it because there are little tidbits of corroboration in terms of the timing when Chucky said it happened in terms of him saying that the money came from from Hoffa a there was an informant who had said the same thing in a way that truck you didn't know but the thing that really made me believe it was when he regretted telling me about it one of the things chucky struggled with and are seven years of conversations was talking about things that he did that were legal or things he thought he wasn't supposed to talk about and this wasn't us what he would call us a Sicilian secret wasn't something that Omerta covered because it was about Hoffa but one day after we were discussing this he got really upset when he told me the story the thirteenth time he got really upset and he got upset because he became clear he thought he had told me a secret he wasn't supposed to he said he wished that Uncle Tony the Anthony Jack Alani who assist kind of consider area on these things so to speak he said he wished he were there's who could ask him about it and when he came deeply to regret it an extremely genuine way is when I really thought yeah he's telling me the truth well now the sort of backdrop to this and that gives it some sense of reality is is from the Nixon tapes which you quote liberally from it's clear that the Nixon White House knows that Fitzsimmons who's succeeded Hoffa does does want Hoffa out of jail because his members want that yeah right that's something he could deliver it to deliverables to coin a phrase he can provide for the the teamster members but he doesn't want Hafa to return to the teamsters right because he's like in his life playing golf but as ah does the Nixon administration because Fitzsimmons is completely in the bag for them and delivering a lot of money and a lot of political support so it was both the Nixon White House and Hoffa's successor assessor Fitzsimmons who wanted they both wanted out but they didn't want him to back in the Union and Fitzsimmons and got got the teamsters endorse Nixon for reelection in it was just pretty extraordinary union the biggest union in the country right so the Nixon White House is trying to placate Fitzsimmons but they WANNA put restrictions on getting Hoffa out of jail they'll commute the sentence but with a condition the condition is that he can't return to labor as a leader in the labor movement until nineteen eighty which was basically cough abused a death sentence this was citing seventy one he was in his sixties by then almost sixty you would have been it would have been re would have basically met ten more years him not being in the Union which Nixon bought with plenty the time for him to get all the benefiting needed Simmons so there was this condition it took on by the way the condition there's so many characters we've heard for the book was was actually the the idea of John Dean the mic Nixon White House have been trying to figure out how to do this in a lawful way and they had all sorts of theories that was actually Dean who came who who wasn't involved in the part of this thing but he was the person in the White House counsel who was in charge of pardons and he talked to the pardon attorney why don't we just put a condition on it and so John Sunday came up with the idea and when it was the condition that in a very indirect way Hoffa's killing believe because when Hoffa gets Tattoo jail and seventy one he's desperate to get his union back it was his whole life he wanted it back but Simmons who double crossed him but he couldn't get it back because of this condition and he he tried every trick he thought he brought a lawsuit he tried to pay everybody off he tried to pay off the border paroles he couldn't get rid of the condition and when he realized I'm jumping ahead in the story but when he realized he couldn't get rid of this condition that Nixon imposed to kind of placate fitzsimmons he eventually just kind of I think lots mind and he started saying threatening to close enough yet right sending is to is to the moments ties basically hop knew everything right right he was involved in the stuff and he basically knew all the secrets about the mob in the union and he said he's going to expose it all and I asked truckee with crazy did did he know the consequences chucky says he just hated him and so much he was being irrational I think it's pretty clear from the context that he was going to bring himself down and everybody else down to so it was a conference suicide mission I think so by the way as a constitutional law professor Hoffa was challenging the conditions put on the commutation of sentence did he have an argument or did was the Nixon White House John Dean arranged commutation with conditions nations was that constitutional so Leonard Dean was Nixon's lawyer and he he actually mix you may have sorry Leonard Name was Hoffa's lawyer in this case they sued aimed radical warrior directly right and they sued the Justice Department and Nixon so the law was definitely on the government side and I the memo have the oil CMO and there was an oil cm memo there was the pardon attorney's my mouth there's a lot of precedent for this kind of thing Benin actually mates brilliant arguments but he lost in the district court art I tried very hard the case had been argued in the court of Appeals Nixon was telling everyone he was GonNa win and Attorney General is going to pardon him all of these things relies part of the mob that he was coming up sorry apologized Hoffa was telling everyone that he was GonNa win this case we don't know what they would have done because after he died ride the case went away I actually tried to all the judges and their clerks I really tried to figure out what the rule is pretty clear that Hoffa was not going to win that he was gonna not going to be able to get back into Labor so Jack we want to get into office disappearance why chucky was the lead suspect and what you learned what you think really happened before we do that I want to talk about one of the people in your book who I think is really one of the most fascinating characters and the whole book that Sylvia Pa- Gano who Sylvia Pagano so they've begun Ghana chucky his mom she was from Kansas City which is where chucky was born she was basically in in the family that was the Detroit crime the Kansas Enza city crime family she grew up in these neighbourhoods she knew all the top guys in Kansas City her grandfather was an old timer in Kansas City so oh and she was this incredibly charming hardworking forceful and opportunistic woman chunkys father left thermostat circumstances and she moved to Detroit Kentucky six years old where she becomes very tight with she got her first job through the Kansas City family with the leaders of the Detroit it crime family and then she becomes close friends with all of them she also becomes close with Jimmy Hoffa and she is actually the person person who introduced top to the the Italian syndicate I try to pinpoint the date and the episode in Nineteen Forty One I'm pretty sure right about that and she was also a go-between between for decades between Hoffa and the mob some of these illegal surveillance tapes in the sixty s make quite clear some of these conversations how vitally consequential Sylvia was too convincing Hoffa to make these loans to the mob so she was very consequential she was also a labor organizer in the early years she was very consequential in implement coffee she took care of Hoffa's wife and she helped raise his children she was she was a go-between with the mob and not just in Detroit she introduced introduce tough at Anthony Provenzano in early twenty pro and so she was this remarkable woman an era when there weren't a lot of women who were going to hang on the edges of the outfit he calls them this is incredibly forceful hard-nosed but but you you also learn much later on that she she and Tony Jack alone actually steal from Hoffa right they actually go into his safe and steal money and that was devastating waiting to chuck so I learned a lot of things I got all the transcripts from these illegal bugs from the government and I learned a lot it was it was really amazing mazing background I kind of filling in these characters were those all in in Fbi there now that have been there now all available on the web if you know where to look but the I. Vault Fault No it's Mary Farrell Vision that is very Farrell Foundation is this amazing organization that collects stuff related to the assassinations originally JFK okay RFK MLK and it turns out that all these bugs were collected all these transcripts were collected as part of the House investigation into the Kennedy assassination asked nation in the eighties and they made their way from there somehow or another to the Mary Farrell Foundation where you can download them now you know where to look so anyway yes so among the other stories that these transcripts tell is that I'll try to be brief but Sylvia was in addition to being the go between cream between Hoffa the mob for the loans was also the main caretaker for hop his wife Josephine who is very sick mentally mental health issues and physical health issues and over time Sylvia who really loved I think love Josephine also grew extremely frustrated she was basically this woman was dumped in her lap and Hoffa was so busy that he wasn't Sylvia became angry about the relationship and yes at one point this is all laid out on the on the transcripts first of all Joe's does theme of having an affair with a Detroit low level mob mob member this all goes fine Hoffa was this all becomes clear on the tapes it caused a bit of a rift in the Detroit family it also becomes clearly the Jackal Onis Anthony and his brother veto where and with Sylvia's help tried several times to Rob Hoffa's home one in Washington Washington and he had a little apartment in Miami and they finally succeeded in breaking into the Miami apartment so and Chucky was of course in the middle of all this because he was very close to half very close with Momberg I'm very close with Jack alumnae and it was the first time that he had ever these twin loyalties he had towards the mob and towards Hoffa came into conflict and he hated it and and the next time that happened was during the disappearance so let's get to the disappearance as we were discussing awfully gets out of jail after this presumed payoff that chucky he delivered and when he can't get back into his old teamster roll roll he turns on Frank Fitzsimmons Simmons who had succeeded him and begins to talk about his ties D- fitzsimmons ties to the mob which pisses off Fitzsimmons and the various mobsters who were is really the monsters Ben Simmons was a weak sister he wasn't going to do anything to offer the real danger it wasn't and it wasn't just the Detroit mob it was the entire country I mean I try to explain this is some of the news in the book about the Hobbit experience at least the early parts yeah it it was a huge deal around the country the entire leadership the Italians indicate across the country their heads on fire and they didn't know what to do and and so yes they were going crazy because they thought Hoffa was basically talking to the government or threatening to about all these relationship so let's get to the disappearance and the connection between the mob getting pissed off about what Hoffa is saying and the events in which he is presumably murder so it's August thirtieth nineteen seventy five papa was supposed to have a meeting at the restaurant called the Mockus Red Fox in a in a suburb of Detroit and he thinks he's going to have a meeting with this man Anthony Jack Loney who was along with Hoffa chunkys other father figure wisey meeting we don't really know why he's meeting with them Jack Aloni has been for months much more than has been known until until I wrote this book for months Jackie Looney has been talking to hop on to try to get him to calm down and he wasn't threatening with anything but he was trying to assuage him so the last time they had met was the Saturday before this Wednesday meeting and there was a note at Javier has left in his house meeting Carney Jack. TGI At democracy red box it was speculated that this was some kind of a climactic meeting which Hoffa thought his threats were finally going to work and he was going to receive the blessing of of the the mob to basically get his job back if you get out underneath this condition it's speculated that that's what was going to happen it's meeting and that's what Chucky what's going to happen at this meeting he basis have offered was wouldn't have gone to this meeting under these circumstances if he didn't think he was going to solve all his problems chucky know about the meeting he says he did not know about the meeting meeting but he he I don't think he didn't know about him and he had known any talk we talking about talks about this in the book he had known about the prior meetings he had known about that that Kentucky to back up a second he had spent many years after half get out of jail out half basically lived at his cottage a smaller all of the college cottage on a lake outside of Detroit and Chucky has spent years with Hoffa out there after the disappearance and he knew he was witnessing Hoffa kind of losing losing his mind making all these threats there was freaking me out and he was he knew about the Jack Alana's efforts and others every down he knew about all that stuff but he did not know about the ones you're telling Jack low never shows up Jacqueline does not show up Papa gets there two o'clock the last contact he has has he he calls this guy named Louis Lintao at three thirty saying jacqueline he didn't show up I'm going home that's the last piece of evidence we have about what happened to Jimmy Hoffa after that there's literally not a single piece of evidence about what happened to him he disappeared and all right so tell us why chucky becomes the primary suspect and then tell us what you think happened so chucky becomes there were very good reasons why he became the primary suspect he he annhave had had a breach the Thanksgiving before so they had they only spoken once in seven or eight months that beach had to do with your mom it did but they were they were having difficulties that they were going through the worst period of their of their basically thirty five year relationship then but it was also a time when my mom who had known Chucky Kentucky had a crush on her decade earlier and she basically reached out to him at that time just after Chucky it had this terrible episode with off over Thanksgiving and basically basically chucky falls in love with my mom decides this is my out I'm in this terrible situation between the mob and Hoffa none of it's good for me I wanNA get Outta here and so my mom comes is back into his life and he basically parachute out of a whole Hoffa Jack Loney Detroit San Ticket job down in Florida yeah to the plan must get a job done in Florida and this is where we we were planning to move in the weeks before disappeared so chucky the reasons he was considered a suspect in the case and there were good reasons were he was it would take too long to explain why but he was driving a car in the suburbs in the general area we're Hoffa disappeared there's so many amazing circumstances that point to him the very parking lot were Hoffa disappeared chucky was there the morning that his parents that's where he typically got his his ride to work they didn't have a car because he was broke he was also there the next morning for the same ride he happened to be in that neighborhood driving a car by the leading the suspect Anthony Jacqueline his son Chuckie was driving a car in that neighborhood it was thought at the time I think I'd debunked this but it was thought at the time that there was this unaccounted accounted for amount of time where chuck whereabouts weren't known it was speculated at the time that Chuckie is one of the few people that hoffa would have voluntarily gotten in a car with there was supposedly blood in the back seat of the car chuckie claimed he was delivering a frozen leaking salmon which seems very spicy it were but in fact it was his back was frozen salmon and there was no none of Hamas blood is in the car but dogs at the time picked up off his set in the car car and there was a hair found in the car that was later identified as being office for all those reasons they also James James Hoffa Hoffa son hated chucky and pointed the finger at him at the beginning of the FBI for all these they'd had no other leads they literally they had all this they were being bombarded with information informants and speculation nation but the only the lead they really had was Jackie and they came down on him very hard and you eventually conclude that it wasn't isn't chucky that he was not there that he was telling the truth about that and then you spend years trying to help clear his name I want to get to that but before four we do you also reach some conclusions about what you think did happen well the conclusions I reached about what did happen are based entirely on what I learn from talking to the current and former FBI officials who worked the case over decades and former attorneys case over decades I was bit of a journalist let's on this and I was triangulating this person tells me this I'd learned a little bit about Your Business This person tells me this negative information I bring up with that person who tells me a little more I kind of put it together and I basically figured out that through informing information and electronic surveillance starting in the nineteen nineties at about the same sometime when there were all sorts of reasons why the FBI came to believe that wasn't jockey there independent reasons why the circumstantial case against him fell apart and at about the same time that that happened and they through these two means informants and electronic surveillance gathered information this is all learned that pointed to the person who picked up with Vito Jack alumnae who was anthony's brother someone Hoffa new well someone who had been going to these meetings with off about solving his problems and and the person that the government thinks did it I didn't name them in the book I'm not GonNa name I'll tell you I'll tell you why and you tell me if you think is a good idea it was a low at the time a low level basically lieutenant in the Detroit mob who quickly rose to prominence and became a big shot the Detroit mob after the disappearance he was never linked to the disappearance until very late until just a couple of years ago I actually stumbled across they actually interviewed Wtma stumble across his three Oh to back from seventy five and it's a one paragraph they never suspected him but he's still alive he died in January died so why not the reason yeah I didn't name him it's because you tell me if this is a good idea or not of

Jimmy Hoffa Bobby Kennedy Chucky Chucky Justice Department FBI Chuck O'Brien Supreme Court Turkey Detroit donald teamsters racketeering David Addington Hoffman Herbs TGI attorney Kennedy Justice Department United States
Wednesday 11/20/19 - The Disappearance Of Jimmy Hoffa

Chicago Dog Walk

25:18 min | 1 year ago

Wednesday 11/20/19 - The Disappearance Of Jimmy Hoffa

"All right bank. Today is Wednesday November Twentieth Chicago Dog Walk Guests the day the support to episode in some ways. Yeah this story. I'd say it's up to it's weird because 'cause usually we just stop in the middle of this is actually picked back up. We went home and we kind of did our home mortgage. We're back again. It's a lot of information so much information. Were back with Jimmy Jimmy Hoffa this time. It's not the rise of him. It's not the story. I mean it is story but this is more about the disappearance and what the hell happened to which who knows but Before we in any of that I do WanNa talk about Yamaha What this is like a running joke in the office you have like a five S. five maybe a four allegedly who knows what kind of phone you have but like sometimes plug choose phone in to do like a conference call and it'll just like blackout and we'll get like you know like maybe one of those updates said he should have gone on like years ago? Yeah so just be like give me fifteen minutes. Yes she I mean. You don't want unreliable modes of transportation not transportation communications. Sorry when you're trying to trying to get on a conference call so go check out the guys Yamaha The Oh you could find all the products that you see die. Yamaha DOT COM so as Barstool missile. Right now they're offering ten percent off their Y.. Two Hundred Portable speakerphone that connects to your laptop or phone and gives you the ability to take your office wherever ever you go hand it over to UC YAMAHA DOT COM. Says Barstool to personal speakerphone for yourself or with upcoming holidays. Grab one for those on the go or remote workers in your life. Yeah and the the sound is great. I think that goes underestimated unappreciated. When you have to put your phone down and that's a conference call it's like yeah like even if you have an iphone? Eleven eleven sounds not great. The Yamaha sound like union. Here crystal clear. It's it's it's like a must have for any office. Yeah it really is a nice a nice little feature there so where we left off. We kind talks about how he went to prison for. Jerry fraud was it yeah. Jury tampering intentioned fraud. So those are the two things they had a whole squadron out to try to get Jimmy Hoffa and they eventually landed landed on those two. Things are kind of set up a sting operation he appealed the appeal lasted three years and then he finally ended up in prison. He got a thirteen year sentence in federal prison so he goes to prison. Thirteen years there and part of the story like a big kicker here on the disappearance S. He's in prison with this guy. Tony Provenzano Yup Tony Pro. Yeah so Tony Perot. And so he's in there with him and he's a captain of the Genovese family and he's also one of the vice presidents of the teamster teamster so I think they had like a ton of vice presidents. You know look around the country but he was one of them and that goes back to what we talked about yesterday where Autho would take these. You know in part of his dealings with the Mafia and part of the agreement was they were going to have high ranking positions for these different mafia people. And then you know obviously with Hoffa in prison and somebody has to be running the teamsters and Hoffa's part of his agreement or part of his sentencing was allowed to keep his title as president of the teamsters but he appointed an acting president who has the highest ranking senior vice president. which is this Guy Frank Fitzsimmons okay? Frank Fitzsimmons he and he just kind of thinks she's Fitzsimmons is almost like a not just a guy. He wasn't like someone who is really going to take the teamsters union and run with it like. He was very comfortable that he was going to post back from fitzsimmons right. Well that was part of the reason that Hoffa Hoffa love power okay. He loved being in power so he wanted to try to pull the strings for the teamsters while he was still in prison and that would make Fitzsimmons a puppet and that is Kinda why he picked Fitzsimmons because he thought that he would be able to Kinda just still run things even from inside of a jail. Cell Shaw Fitzsimmons is a guy who takes over for Hoffa and that Tony Pro he also had teamsters ties to right. Yes yeah he was he was a mobster and he he was a vice president of the teamsters but he went to jail for pension fraud as well. Okay so he he there in the same Federal Prison in Pennsylvania together together. So they're they're buddies in prison. They knew each other before. And everybody's at the start of their sentencing. They're they're Kinda pals in prison. Okay so he's doing thirteen years And then and I don't know where he gets out of jail. How did he get out of jail? Well he got another presidential part so it was like again. We talked about Eisenhower. You mentioned him. The Kennedy is. We're all over him. And then Richard Nixon who. This is a nineteen seventy-one now so I think he served less than half of his original sentence. got a presidential pardon. Basically because Nixon was gearing up for the seventy two election and wanted to have a more of a stronghold on the blue collar vote so that was kind of the deal so Hoffa agrees to this part and thank you very much gets out of jail. He once he gets out he finds is out the FITZSIMMONS. Who now he himself has kind of been enjoying his freedom and is running The teamsters a little bit differently than Hoffa had intended. He he set up like this thing with with the government where Hoffa couldn't really there's a condition attached. He couldn't run for reelection of his presidency. Zia The union until nineteen eighty. So that was like Oh like he and he didn't find that out until after he got out so he was like. Oh what the fuck like I agree to this and Fitzsimmons. Kind of set me up to take me out of power and that was key because like we said Fitzsimmons had kind of taken the it to even further links with the mafia Than Hoffa ahead ever intended so they had like kind of the Mafia had unfettered access basically to the pension fund so huge huge money at their disposal. The funds worth over a billion dollars dollars at this point and Fitzsimmons was kinda strategically removing guys. Who are loyal to Hoffa and replacing with his own guys so there was like a real power struggle inside the I.? B. T. and then also with the Mafia guy that's such a guy who likes power. He's not happy with just being free. He wants to be back in charge he wants to he never. I never felt good about it so he got. He Got Mad When he was hearing whispers of how the I. B. T. was running while he was in prison and it got it and that was something that kind of drove all of us? Steak between he and Tony Pro because of Tony pro his you know. He's a captain for the Genovese family. He's fucking love and Fitzsimmons. Loves him like yeah. Here's all the money you want. Here's all the power you want you guys you won't make. It like Shell. Corporation for the Mafia and and Hoffa basically kind of made it known that. Hey once I get out things are gonNA roll back like we're GONNA go back. You're not gonNA have this access like I'm still in charge like this is my organization. I built it. It's going to run the way I want to run it and the response from Tony Pros basically fuck you. So this is while they're still in prison so now they this rivalry is heating up even like inside of you know inside the federal prison walls. Yeah so a couple interesting notes as well as is that the teamsters union did back Nixon that year who was a Republican which is unheard of and as well as he received a pension payout of one point seven seven million dollars a lump sum which was like unheard of his right. So like Jimmy. Hoffa was like well on his way to just live in a nice Whatever life in Detroit but this is what he wanted? He wanted to be around his position. Back with the teamsters union but like you said the Fitzsimmons was kind of more tied up with the mob lobbied for them so they didn't want him to leave so they didn't want him to leave. And then you know the. I don't even know if it was a loyalty to Simmons as a person but they just knew that Hoffa you you know he would come back in one things done his way and he wasn't shy about saying that so you know he and then he can't even doubled down on his feud with Tony Pro. Basically blaming blaming Tony pro a moron. And saying you're the reason that I'm in jail to begin with and you know like all you guys are the ones that got me busted for pension fraud. I shouldn't even be doing this like you. Guys were sloppy about how you're using. The funds like draw drew attention to us. This is all your fault so now it's like finger pointing in addition to. We're not doing it this way anymore. And it did not sit well with the mafia okay. Then let's fast forward to the day. He went missing the day he disappeared. He had he had a two PM meeting with Tony Pro at Machos Red Fox. It was like a little wedding reception place yet. His son's wedding there was a place to launch get dinner. I don't like it just seemed like nice the way it's portrayed if you with a place that looks awesome. Yeah thank you took place to hang out in the Irishman. They showed in this. I don't know it just feels a real seven well and the the whole point of that meeting from Hoffa's perspective was that he wanted to squash the beef because he needed Tony Pro and he also knew that Tony Pros. It was not a guy that you want to be fucking around with because he had a long history of making people disappear where the bodies are never found is just mafia hits like like no one knows what happened to so they were friends before and then in nineteen seventy. Four HOFFA was like gearing up and he was like looking for support he went onto tony pro being like. Hey like I wanna be back in power. Can I have your support and Tony. Pros response was Fuck you I will rip. You're like like this is a quote. I will rip your guts out and kidnap your granddaughters so hard. No Hard No from Tony pro about supporting Hoffa but Hoffa like knew that he needed him so they went through an intermediate intermediary. This Guy Anthony Jack Loney Who was supposed to be at this lunch as well at the Red Fox he was a Detroit Guy and then the twenty pro is going to be there and then gone in the wind gone? And what's interesting too is. The meeting was at two PM. Like I said at the Mancha's Red Fox and Hoffa was known as a guy who didn't like anybody to be late right. He was very much Lombardi time here there. Fifty whatever Yep and what was weird to me is awful waited an hour and a half. Almost they saw him a payphone across the street he called his wife He. He said he'd be home by four. He waited a long time for these guys. So I don't know what that says but it it. It raised up a red flag to me. Because I know it's an important meetings. The Guy who can make you disappear. But they're still crazy anyway. It's a long well thinking. He probably knew anything. If it was any Tom. Dick or Harry off the street. He's probably like you know it's two fifteen. The menial said to him get the Fuck Outta here. I don't think you stand up Tony Pro. But he was mad he made a phone call like you said it made a phone call to his wife and also made a phone call supposedly to another friend of his you know asking if he had messages or anything like that so and then those were the last two times anybody had ever heard from okay so then that takes us into kind of some suss back some hearsay. Some who who is he with last like who seemingly did this to him. Who Pretty much killed him? Because I think a couple of years later they officially I like declared that. He's dead. Obviously yes so. He had been missing for seven years. So I think that's the laws nineteen eighty. So he disappeared. This nineteen seventy five July thirtieth nineteen seventy five. The last time anyone saw heard from and in Nineteen eighty-two he was declared legally dead and I do my prefaces. Listen anytime. There's a missing person anytime there's like like a murder case like there's a million things moving. There's a million suspects now amplify that when it's been forty plus years it's a mob guy. It's a union guy like show we're not gonNA get to every person who was kind of accused or any person who made a confession. But we're GonNa do our best so let's start with. Let's Frank Sharon okay. So that's that's that's the big one. Well why don't you lay it out if you have a better grip on him. The so Frank Sharon he He is the subject of the Irishman. He is the Irishman. He was only Iris. This guy to ever have kinda ties to the Italian mob He wrote a book called the hurt paint houses which is code for I heard murder people. you know. Scattered their blood on the wall whatever He in that book he detailed and he admitted that he killed Jimmy Hoffa right should be you know enough for people to be like. Oh sure like you know. That's if you're going to confess your bank killed a lot of people for these guys but a lot of people don't buy it well it was enough for the FBI to go investigate. And they went through and they went to like the house where he was supposedly murdered him and they dug up the floorboards and they found they found blood and they that house at the time of the supposed. Jimmy Hoffa murder was going on rented. It was just like a like a Mafia house that they like. You could plausibly. Just walks in you. You know nobody would be there. Kill guy but the blood on the on the floorboards did not match office does not DNA match This and also this Guy Frank Sheeran. He was friends with Hoffa for a long time too but he was like a known like you said a guy who paints houses did a lot outta house painting for the Buffalo Family which was at the time probably the most powerful Mafia family they were out of New York so It was it was one of those things and then you know the when when Hoffa disappeared they did all the things in nineteen seventy five the call the police called the you know the FBI got involved. They questioned people. They questioned Tony Pro and then this Anthony Jack Lonnie who supposedly you know going to meet with him that day. They both had like airtight alibis. So they tony pro said Hey I was playing cars Jersey all these people who can corroborate Jack Laney said he was getting a haircut. So it's like there are no no nobody no witnesses. This is in the to like possible suspects right off the bat have good alibis so it was just like there's just as it is a cold case from the word go and a big part is to get away from Sharon for a second here like you said those guys. Whoever they were with they kept talking about the time They kept talking about the time because they wanted that alibi. Oh by to let people know like Oh yeah two o'clock three thirty four PM. I remember I was with them and they kept saying that time so like of course tell them celebrate. They knew what they were doing. And that makes you think they had some type of influence in this but Frank Sharon why. I think people have problems with him confessing to the crime as he was is pretty he was pretty loose with the stuff he could fast too. I guess and I. That's what everything I've seen. was that they in listen. You're going to see it in the movie star. Like if you're if you don't want whatever there might be spoilers but there's no spoilers I said yes history is history exactly so he liked chartered a mini private plane to Detroit throughout Ohio. And then they said that that that's impossible I don't there's a lot of yeah. There's a lot of conspiracies into believing that Frank Sharon earn liars. Actually Dan Baldia. who was like Jimmy Hoffa expert? He is like on a crusade against the movie. And he's upset with the Niro and Scorsese because like he's you so like you so like stuck in the mud like hey. There's no way frank. Sharon did this in confess. Because he was dying he needed money he was broke. All I don't wow that's kind of a is trying to sell books. That's the background on why Sharon didn't do it. And then you have like you said there's reasonably that he may have done it. Yeah well well The other part of that is you know sharing like it or not. It was a Catholic right so he might have just been confessing like. Just get this off my chest fast like I did it. I am dying I am broke but I am also dying and I don't WanNa take this to my deathbed like that. That's the thing that happens too. So maybe maybe he did do it but you know like you said there. There are some details. That are a little fuzzy where it's like all Sheeran says who is in this car and there's no evidence of him being in like them picking him up at a certain car and then there's the NAF him found in a different car a car. Belonging this Guy Chuckie O'Brien So another Mafia Guy who knew all parties involved so it was like okay like wall then that is a major detail of Sheeran story. That doesn't quite line up because there's no detail in one long car that he supposedly took and there is DNA. In this guy. Chucky O'Brien's car so Chuckie O'Brien he was kind of like a guy who he was almost almost a doofus. I would say what the way they described it right. Yeah like he was just kind of And he just. He wasn't seen like the not the alibi on him. But the like the the discussion couldn't have been chuck. O'Brien is it. He was not a guy that you put out for this job right trusted yes right like this was a job that it would have been very tight slipped. Nominee people would have known in their best guys end of story. Right a guy like sharing. Yes a guy like Sharon not a guy like Chuck Bryant Right. So they're just the people find it hard to believe that they had any this guy anywhere near this and Chuckie. O'Brien has also just vehemently denied any involvement for fifty years or forty years. So it's also you know like so again like maybe I don't know why but I believe them but in that kind of backs it up to it's like if you're you're you have to this is not just maybe Chucky O'Brien's good enough for a normal mob hit. This is Jimmy Hoffa like like. We've talked about like this is a guy who received the presidential part this this guy who's been on national TV with you. Know other presidents I. It's it's insane like how well known and powerful. This guy was so it's not just so you know it's you like you said you'd better use your absolute best guys and and like you can't have big conspiracy 'cause people like the power and they like the credit and someone someone will have you know loose lips sink ships and that's how this thing goes down so you have to have somebody you can absolutely trust and Sharon was a guy that Russell Bufalino absolutely trusted. Yeah and people knew Jimmy Hoffa you know like people knew who he it's not like you could just couldn't make their worst supporters at the time for sure. A lot of the people didn't want him there here at the end when he had his most support at that time. Still in Detroit and it was in Detroit Michigan. You know Also the Detroit mob. I mean it's all title Newark but was there anything else that there was kind of. Yeah so I mean. There's a million theory so I don't if we want to hop onto another one but supposedly office traveling all the time he's in prison and his wife gets a little bit lonely so she actually has an affair. Allegedly now this is according to Guy Tarrant McShane and Terence McShane worked for the FBI and he also was Part of this board that was in charge of like Kinda rebuilding and fixing like like an anti corruption board of teamsters so like not he had. FBI information the also had some inside information and he wrote a book as well and he said that you know this was the thing that you know. HOFFA's wife Josephine had an affair with kind of a low level Mobster guy in Detroit Hafa finds out about it and he goes to like the Don on of the the head of the Detroit. Mafia's this Guy Torelli and it's really go. Listens to his story. Goes Okay and then he's just like wow like office completely we lost. It has no respect. Can't handle like his own wife can't handle like this again. This is another time it was like hey like take care of your your own problems yourself with your family and and so they just kind of lost you know the kind of started looking at him in a different light kind of way so now it's like like they already had problems with Hoffa. I think he's losing his grip lake totally that and they're worried that he's GonNa Start blabbing about how deep the connections between the Mafia and because it's it's like you're willing to tell me about problems with your wife. What else are you willing to say? So now they like now. They feel like they can't trust him To handle these problems and keep his mouth shut so they get kinda get worried and again. It's like goes back to the issue about the money like they still want access to that money. So now he becomes like an expendable and Person and kind of somebody that they just they just can't trust and it's also important in our. I'm sorry we didn't mention this already. He was already open or he was working with people to against them up wasn't wasn't he working with authorities. Well that was part of his case before that he was leaking stuff against both the I bt and the Mafia so like Hoffa's like playing every which way and like people they they know like the Mafia. Yeah and you know once you get in that situation you you're asking for trouble. Yeah you're you're toast toasted. That's the truth and Richard Kuklinski. If we want to go to another suspect if you WanNa talk about his situational yes so talk about another guy who the the mafia absolutely trust as a Hitman so he is another guy who ties to the The BUFALINI family The story goes oppose a he showed up to the Red Fox with Tony Pro and then there is like an unnamed driver driver and so the driver twenty pro sitting shotgun took Linski in the back with Hoffa and now Hoffa you know people all these stories with Hoffa getting into a car right because he just assumes that at the meeting location has been changed and he's like pissed off because they're late but like whatever. Let's let's go so he gets into the car and Twenty programs could Kalinski Signal bashes him in the head with job job. Breaker stabs them and then they pull off to the side of the road and throw them in a body bag. Put Him in the trunk and then they take that too. Is that the one they took to an incinerator raider. Yes that's the one that. Put them in a fifty five gallon. Oh yeah fifty. Five Gallon oil drum welded it shut and then buried it so that was like that was the story that that's where HOFFA ended up buried in oil drum then they actually because the FBI they had like some other case and somebody said they had information about the whereabouts of of of Of HOFFA and the Mafia found out about that supposedly they dug up that oil drum. Put it in the back of a car. Put the car through a compactor and shipped it to Japan so like to be recycled and used for other auto parts. So it's just like a steel scrap car with an oil drum containing Jimmy Hoffa's body audience and then the defense against that as they would never be dumb enough to send a body across fucking the ocean that and then also Hof is not a dummy. Either it's it's would be surprising because Hoffa didn't know Kuklinski part of the reason. Why the the Sheeran thing lines up is like he would get no car with sharing because he knows awesome entrust them in Delaware Union exactly so he knows that guy for a long time and you know he knows twenty pro but he knows twenty pro wants to kill him so if the story Aureus Cook Linski twenty pro and some unnamed guy another so to one of the guys wants to kill you and you don't know the other two HOFFA's probably not getting in that car so like that storage Kinda doesn't doesn't really hold water for me either But that is something that's out there and then it really just goes off the rails from there guys. I mean there's word that the mob owned a A place where you could cremate. People cremated them right after they killed them. There's word that he's buried on some old mobster farm And then what would then. There was one more giant in stadium. I mean there's there's all like he's buried under giant state the meadowlands. Yeah and then there There's other theories that he you know because he had ties the FBI and Like he got worried when they know nobody showed up for the meeting. He's like oh I'm really fucked that the F. B. I.. Picked him up and he just disappeared. The witness protection program like changes look and he just lived out his days under under a different name. Prizes like some Schmuck in Oregon in egg noodles and catch up you. You know like that kind of thing so that'd be kind of interesting. Yeah so like. That's a theory as well. So listen I know that was probably a lot to take in but if you plan on watching this movie next Wednesday the Irishman you like this stuff is needed. Because that's one of the things where I don't feel like they did a great job. It was kind of explaining all these people on what they did and who they were and they have three and a half hours to do so like they still needed more time to do it right like it wasn't it wasn't the writers or Scorsese Fault. It was just like it was so hard you know they they put it on Netflix. Could've made it a mini series. They could've made it like an eight part. You know our our apiece miniseries but absolutely cut off. Yeah Damn why didn't they do. They should have done that. Yeah yeah he's the Kennedy stuff is interesting to you know so they could have gone all the way back but town. If that was my one con it was that there was just too many people too many moving parts and watching this icon was able to piece together some stuff so I really think this show will help you like kind of watch. The movie next one's there. It's well if you WANNA watch the movie. What's kind of gave us a lot of information which was called killing or searching for Jimmy Hoffa killing Jimmy Hoffa on Amazon prime for free so that was a good one as well? There's that that's really one of the things I use those into another podcast called gone But yeah it was. It was an awesome unbelievable story. It's just it's one of those things where it's like. I can't believe how little I knew about it. I know so. I can't wait for the movie. Yeah we asked. So that's That's it that's it for this two-parter parter And Yeah thank you for listening. Bang Bang I was quite yet. two-part show we will see you tomorrow.

Jimmy Jimmy Hoffa Tony Pro Guy Frank Sheeran teamsters union Mafia Frank Fitzsimmons Detroit FBI Frank Sharon Tony fraud Guy Chuckie O'Brien HOFFA Tony Pros Richard Nixon Yamaha Chicago Genovese Kennedy Tony Perot
Montreal Mafia Part 2

Gangland Wire

40:42 min | 11 months ago

Montreal Mafia Part 2

"You are listening to gangland wire hosted by former Kansas City. Police Intelligence Unit detective. Jerry Jenkins Welcome. All you are chapters out there in the gangland wire studio went on skype with our good friend. Co host mob historian from up north. North part of the United States Up around the Chicago. Where you Cam Robinson? Welcome Cam Gary how you doing good. It's good to have you here. We've got we're GONNA do the second part of that Montreal crime family and watch bad blood. That first season was so much right on target. Hey really stuck to a really closely. I was impressed. Brad did did the history on it. You guys add recommend if you haven't seen this on net flex get go. Look at bad. Blood is a really good series camera. Need to make some thank yous. I Got FRANCIS FROM CLEVELAND. He's been listening to our podcast. I last six months. He said Great. Show watch no Marvin Mo name. Hey that's good. I was just yesterday. I got that I keep watching Bimbo and then have to do a Cleveland episode form coming. Well I did one on Angelo Leonardo. Yeah time ago. Yeah that's right. There's a lot more to Cleveland and just Angelo. Leonardo ended up the witness protection program. But that was interesting. That is The mob oath that he recounted a any in front of speaking of Mo for track Goodman He gave me a nice little donation shot and a beer more than just a cup of coffee. Thanks for the incredible work. He said brother against brother is one of the better mob documentaries and he said I've watched a lot so that was quite a compliment. I keep getting those those compliments on that movie cameron in. I don't know I. It is good. I liked it the fact that it's telling such an interesting story but from somebody who was right in the middle of it Gary. That's that's what really got me is not only. Is this something that you're studying and reading up on but you are right there in the line of fire and you're recounted basically firsthand that that's what really that's what's really appealing to me is. This is a documentary told by somebody who was actually on the front lines thank you. I've never seen one. Did it exactly quite like no and another thing we did? It was just an accident. I thought this is. We've filmed several of the guys right out there on the exact streets where we did that thing. Some of those streets looking over their shoulders of those streets are Kinda dicey out there right now to from a different standpoint. How does a youtube tour of Kansas City mob sites what time bye-bye cellphone the motorcycle not get off due to turn the camera around and talk about? This is what you're seeing in the background and there's a couple of dudes at Cape up behind me and finally I just had to quit. Turn rather watch them get onto motorcycle drive off? They had an idea anyhow. Moving right along Zak Swanson Zak Swanson said. Your podcast is great He was Ben mcadoo got another one from an old friend of ours. I hadn't heard from him for a while. I was hoping he was still out there. Myhrl Watson from Blue Springs area. He's he's made a few nice donations over the years. Been a longtime listener -An and he He made another nice donation. They said the only thing he wanted was a copy of the DVD brothers against brothers. So I got that packaged up out there. I need to read. It ended down to the post office before I leave town here next week. Ben Goodrich made a nice little donation He said that He loves the PODCAST AT IT makes his work day. Go by. He's you're not gotten that several times people's makes her work by users. Some kind of a job that you don't really have to listen to anything or or focused particularly on anything and or like. If you're a policeman I know I had a paddy wagon driver. Get hold of me once. They said Yeah. I said I started on your podcast. And he said I volunteered to drive the patty wagon on the midnight shift last night because I wanted to be in the episodes that good. So you're driving. The Fatty Y. You don't really have to do anything you can hear. Radio never called and then you go pick somebody up. Take them down down and go back out and drive around till somebody else calls So you got those kinds of jobs although I did have a A heavy equipment operator. That wanted it. Wanted to know if I can make it louder because his heavy equipment cut it routed out listen to them and yeah there's loud is they need to be. I what he needs better. You're more than likely from headphones about twenty years ago. Casey Wall guys become a friend of mine. I knew him from before the second time I've Thanked him. I think he made another nice donation. He's got to help them. A make some connections and we could do a Bob World Summit next summer and connection with the local cigar store of talk to a few other people about it and ran the idea by and everybody thinks it's a great idea to the cigar stores do programs to draw customers. That do promos one around here do all kinds of little little things cigars and guitars and they have all kinds of guys come and meet and speak. Yeah it's it's a hell of a good place to get together and just talk about all kinds of things that but they love to have you so I stopped by the one. That's close to me here today. It's kind of the two bigger cigar stores in town. This is kind of the higher higher income bracket store in his ears. Pretty close to me here so I went down and talk to that guy and the boss wouldn't end so I ran it by his manager. I could tell he was kind of interested but a little bit he just didn't know he couldn't envision it. I think I can somebody to tell them the vision and the other ones out in the suburbs outlaw cigar store and if I don't hear back from this guy at the time I get back from Texas I'm going to Go hit up the outlaw cigar store and see what they got if they WANNA do something I think. It's a natural Kind of combination. Absolutely probably have other people in need to thank you out there but just wire-tappers just I think y'all every time I love my my download you're going up a little bit every month and I. I really appreciate all of your name. Y'All by name but that would take too long. That would take two or three podcast or more. This is GonNa be the second part of two part series on Canadian organized crime. We're GONNA talk a little more about why veto zoo in jail down in the United States. And how he got involved in a hit on three mile cappos in From one of the family member. Which family was it all of a sudden? It's slipped a banana. Three Banana cappos. That's right you know you. You sent me some research on this job in on. That's quite a story there. That Bananas War Joe Benigno Banana Banana War. Yeah we got a banana split in the banana war. That's a good one. So we we gotta get onto that. He had his own connections with the Canadians up there and he was he was big into narcotic so. That's a really interesting story. But as a little review But we talked about before I guess and you know the Canadian mob is been kind of down on the down. Low All during the thirties and forties. I did find that jove. Lachey AD mentioned a couple of names in his testimony and they're quite a few immigrant families Tie Ins Assay and immigrant families up there. Who did some criminal activity? But I you know not really fine much about the kind of organization up there that we had down the United States. You know camera. I have to wonder if it was. Because they didn't have prohibition up there. Yeah I I think that's probably right. Steve Magadino up in buffalo had a little bit over into Hamilton Ontario. But like you said I. Mean prohibition was the major driver of that was what would created the created. Everything et created organized crime. In this country was prohibition and another thing I found was there's about as many and drank gadot families over there as there is the Sicilian mob labor labor ends up. There must much many more must have come from Labra. You know you never know why groups of people come to a certain place but use this because some pivotal person or some influence came and then start writing back home and and they started getting other people to come Others an area down here by St Louis. It was settled by tons of Germans and read a little history about it and a lot of buying wine. Vineyards down there and wine reason and they said this came over and he's he started writing people back in Germany and said this this area around the Mississippi River on both sides of it and just south and west of St Louis Little. Bit looks really like Germany and so people start flogging in that area all the town's down there and have German names and and just tons of German heritage in in that particular area so for some reason. Some collaboration must have started writing back then. Hey Toronto's a good place to come yeah that's interesting I hadn't Hadn't looked up what it what it brought that sorta claiborne desperate to up to Canada so much. But that is some look into. Because it's like you said it is a big concentration of them up there. Joe lachey named a couple people up there in candidate Paul volpe and Johnny POPs but Pagliuca Volpe was murdered in Nineteen ninety-three and his organization disappeared. there's another rival. Collaboration crime family had him murdered and today today in Toronto. It's there's a smaller Grand Gedeh out gangs operating So there's still some of them are coming over from. Collaborators is what I learned just they just had some bust up there within the last few months at thirty million dollars of of of of items they they got several Ferraris Lamborghini and a bunch of property and that and that was that was that was. That was collaboration too. Yeah yeah absolutely. Th- These these. I mean. These guys weren't even trying to cover it up when you got you got three Ferraris and lamborghinis driveway. I mean people are going to start looking really. Yeah I remember those days like that big hair and acid wash jeans start thinking then the best thief. I ever knew would get stuff like that when he was out of town but when he was in Kansas City he wore overalls and had about a ten year old car now four door sedan. These these guys in Chicago looked like they thank Joe off the street. He just got off their union job. Yeah they did. I noticed that in contrast to the Mafia the collaboration Grand Gedeh gangs. They don't have that one godfather. They have like a commission that settles disputes and coordinates activities. And everything they're not they're they're they're less of a pyramid kind of organizations like it's like family groups. There's not not like families in the sense of a mob family I actually an actual group of of relations and they have a network that works in between themselves. But but it's it really is just so you take out. One is not the kind of thing where we're a huge Rica would work because you take out one group. Well that's get that taken out and then you just have others backfield from another family. So it's not it is like you said it's not as hierarchy as the Mafia that was part of the dispute between Sicilian Mafia and the Drank Gada in Montreal. That veto judo ran into a guy named Vincenzo. Control drowning out. He had his chief. Enforcers Paolo be only viola right and so resume does murdered viola. And some of his brothers sometime the seventies and eighties and seemed to emerge as the top dogs in in Montreal so while the Toronto probably remained under control of the collaboration this assay the Mafia took over Montreal and had all the power there. Yeah the the bananas had really tight ties that control any organization up in Montreal and it looks like you know in the mid late sixties when the bananas are having their war and then carmine. Galante was locked up in six to and through the seventy S. It looks like trone. Maybe lost some of his sort of his source of power. They were still important a lot of heroin. But and that's about the time where like you said. Rizzuto got tired of of taking taking too much take mortars from a single centralized boss. Nick Rizzuto is leading this. Cillian faction of this this wrong yet. The group could trainees east and they rose up and there was this gang were they went on in the late. Seventy S in the eighties and they They they wiped out the organization. Basically killed killed his the main cap. Oh this viola who took over after control any sort of step down and they killed Francesco. Paolo Viola both the two brothers who are in charge and another a third brother Rocco Viola. He was sitting at dinner and he was taken out by a sniper through his window. So that's that's three brothers. Who were killed for supporting Qatrani and seventy four when VIC attroney went to prison? So and that's SORTA started breaking things up there and they just never were able to get a foothold wants. The resudues really took took took hold and kind of one last thing about in a little bit over what we talked about before. But it will get caught back up here but Vito Rizzuto. He was a guy was good. He kept low-profile. He didn't drive lamborghinis and he may had Lincoln but nothing really crazy that real noticeable a lot of a lot of businessmen have Lincoln's Lincoln. Every go we'd have started looking at you drive out your driveway tomorrow and you see somebody start up behind you kind of trae along behind you. Don't think anything about it lack of that giant and the Lincoln. We'd better go see who he is. Tap ON THE WINDOW JEFF. What he must be. Somebody must be big. I remember Sunday's young guys around here that what back like they're in the Mafia and they have a big four door towncar Lincoln and they'd have silk shirts and gold around their neck and and thinking rigs and all that they live at home with their mother seems we common theme with these guys. I and when they did get caught on something to deal you know. It certainly wasn't skimming money from LAS VEGAS CASINOS. And and controlling the teamsters union those real guys oldsmobiles and pontiacs and were normal clothes and and did really have pinky rings and big goal jewel. Things are go things around their neck and that kind of stuff I said Carlo. Gambino the only extravagance he allowed himself was his personalized license. Plates IN C- Gambino. Yeah other than that. He was allowed the one license plate. So you know this Bad blood really tracked close as we said in the second one. It veered away significantly but but in way in in one way. You know the zoo tos. Created this narcotics organization they also brought in all these non Sicilians as part of that narcotics organization and Beato was able to to keep peace and as you said last time that he told when they sent him to jail down the United States told him and said you know what's going to happen. You get a rue the day that you sent me away. Because he was the one that everybody rolling and making money and when they'd have some kind of disputes they they respected him enough to To set it. Let him settle the dispute on. They'd set up these connections down in South America by. Then I'll tell you these guys you know they had the heroine was was oh school and they got that from Turkey through Sicily. And and you know France France and that the French connection Marseilles and then yeah but early in game they realize cocaine was the coming thing and they went down to Venezuelan. Set up those connections down there so with the Cali cartel down I mean just to diversify I diversify their portfolio is just such an incredible thing about about Vita Rosado the way he just really split his interest in partnered up with everybody and it. Wasn't you see Canada now? Like you were saying. It's so violent now but under veto it just didn't see it as much on the news. It's always it's always something now about Canada and that's one thing. The the series bad blood focused on was how he used the street gangs to help. Run the product out and the hells angels to move it around and and kind of keeping in in you know you had with those guys. You got You gotta sit on them and you but you gotTa have their respect. Otherwise they're gonNA run all over here and and he was able to do that he had he had the big duck. He had connections overseas to get the heroin in. I mean hells angels. They don't have any connections in Sicily or Turkey or France and they make any heroin in the United States and especially in Canada they do not grow opium poppies and Canada. At least not that I ever heard of. Maybe they do but And that's the best the hells angels could do. So if they want to be part of this thing and make some money they had to do it and veto also had control of the doctor in Montreal. Seems like he just on the Saint Lawrence River. Yeah he must have had the unions wired and as well as there's a lot of corruption more corruption I ever thought up in Canada among government officials. I always think is like is squeaky clean place. But but he having the differences there more polite about it okay. Hey they just politely take a little envelope every week. They always say thank you. Hey and hey you got about fifteen hundred hours ago you did it. Thanks a lot and the Montreal family. It appears to me kind of my reading of it. I don't know if there's You'd have to say I'm the expert on this. There are a lot like Kansas City is to Chicago to the Bonanno family and Ken in New York City. Because the banana family again is the big duck and then Sicilian mafia world. Bonanno family would've been the big duck. They had like six hundred soldiers at one time. It was a huge big organization back in the sixties. Got So big that the other the other Leaders heads of the other family wanted to break it up and And so he was kind of like their little brother He. He was a standalone family but he was connected to them and where you're connected family like that then it's like Cassidy is Chicago. You're always going to deal with them. You're always going to take that into consideration. If you make a little something extra you may slip a little piece of that action to the mob. Boss up there like next values to joy UKA. He had his own stream of skim read and he he's ran up to. He sent one of his guys up Chicago periodically with like ten fifteen grand and just to give it. I Hooper Oprah never told anybody else about that probably not. I wouldn't let when I compare them. Yeah really I would compare them To that now Paul Castellano he. He had a little side deal with some cessations and narcotics business and he was taking that money and when telling me about it and it Kinda caught. That was one of the reasons he had him. It I think was as he was not sharing that and and and one reason that he could like get away with it because it came sharing that narcotics money when the under surface he was telling. Everybody don't do narcotics. Don't deal narcotics and But let the Sicilians deal in narcotics Cherry Hill. Gambino's I think Can Be Cherry Hill. They were right John they were they were. They were like third cousins to Carlo. Gambino John and I can't remember the other guy's name but They'll Cherry Hill was what they call themselves. And and actually. I'm I do a podcast on this I did all the research just to show the guy the Gambino family. What it where it is today it. It's all hooked up with this assay in and kind of the progeny of these Gambino's and this guy that got killed he he was Frankie Kelly Frank Kelly. Yeah he he was he connected to this essay and section of the Gambino family. And they've kind of taken. It looks like they've kind of taken it over. It's it's still up in the air right now but we'll see how it shakes out now since resute. Oh was bringing in narcotics and the big market is down in New York City in the banana. Family was was doing all the drugs at the time they had to do. Had to work with carmine. Gallo the cigar. He was kind of a one time. Davis is self appointed boss of the banana family and and the heroine gang band of New York. Wouldn't you say you've read about Paul Anka? Linda he was like he was deported from Canada. Nineteen fifty six. He was he was spent so much time up there and he was. The Canadian mounties deported deported. Galanti and he ran. He ran everything. Remotely Nineteen Fifty. Seven was when they had the big Sicilian heroin conference with Glenn. Tean banana went to Sicily Disorder. Firm out more those details and all that heroin was basically coming in through some of it through New York but most through through through Canada there so Canada really and that was that was their major major income. There was was the narcotics. That's why they grew so so powerful. And Yeah it was through through Galante and during the seventies if you just in the popular culture is think about the movie Serpico and the French connection to French connection Bob. Other movies in seven days and those blaxploitation movies Superfly and all that. The Italians always were depicted as the ones that were controlled the heroin traffic in popular culture and in in reality too so just kind of interesting little sidelight. How art always kind of imitates life. There is nothing original after Glenn Hayes murder which you know he's the one that said Nobody would ever murder me. They're not too long for four days time. They killed him. There's a power struggle in the banana family between a couple of rival factions. Of course there will be you know with the with Nano out in Arizona and bill son is not really wanting to do anything really. Didn't have the the the you know. Do this kind of work himself. Anyhow and Phil RISD. Ellie had been sort of the acting boss until Glen. Tay Got out of prison. Rest- went to prison the same year. Glenn take out the nineteen seventy four and they just took over control. The family said No. I'm the boss period. This three man. There was a three man ruling council. Glenn to help that I'm taking it over. I was the under Boston. And I'm the boss now. He was always loyal to Bonano. So risd Ellie is in jail. He was elected the leader by the Commission and Glen said the hell with that. Okay what the Commission says. I'm on the boss. And so that had started to plant the seeds of bad blood with Glenn already apparently had really hard feelings against Carlo. Gambino and that really going back to the earlier issues with banana. But that really when he turned his back on the commission ruling about who's going to run the family that was what sort of led to the division starting once once that division opens up there. And there's really no way back. It's really tapped. Come back from that. Everybody's got their egos up senses the power and he's already kind of broken the rules by going along with what the commission said. So you know it's like all bets are off once you break the rules the other side. So that's that's when they said up this murder and that's where we're gonNA come back to our friend. Vito pseudo feel risd Ellie. The commission really favored him over this other faction. It seemed to be the number one guy was Joe. Masino it right. And the other faction with this Alfonse in Delhi Kado Philip Jack Loney and Dominic Trench era. They were capitals. Is that they. They were all. They were all against Galante in delicate. Oh and but what I thought was. That was that rusty RISD. Ellie is kind of a weak leader and he spent most of his life in jail and L. Kado thought he would be a better leader than he he they wanted to be done with. Glenn but Kado and because a few days before this death Jack O'Neill was in prison so yeah the COD group. One to take control of the family for themselves and Masino supported his boss rusty retell. Who's in prison? So these three cappos. There have been a couple of sit downs about. Are we going to settle this? I mean the bananas that too formal. Sit Down with the other families about these three rogue captains who wanna take control the family for themselves and Joe Massino who is supporting rusty rally. Who's in prison so is really escalating? The gambino Colombo's had been involved in the Genovese is were supporting Kado in the Gambino is in the Colombo supported Messina so it was really escalating towards other families involved in this internal strife. That's when you've got cappos against other capitals trying to keep peace. That's that's we're really escalated it to where we involve our friend. Vito so yeah. S. Joe Massino Of course he's the one out of the joint and steady was in so he's the one that sets everything up and and for some reason. I guess we can speculate about this. But he calls Beato Rizzuto and has Kim to come down and help with this hit because they've got permission from from a couple of other bosses in so he asked him to come down and I think he brought a couple of other Canadians with him. Then he helped set up. This hit did. He brought two or three guys and bananas. Having all the families have brought in help from out of town who wouldn't be recognized or who just just could could come in and go out really quickly and of it. They all brought in out of town help but I think that it also helped solidify those ties with with resumes again that the bananas are trying to reach back out. Because that's a huge moneymaker and if you were going to end up ahead of that but then family you WanNa have tie for the narcotics connection right right absolutely and you gotta sewn up there in Canada. So they they call another meeting. These guys are already at ease indelicate. Oh and these two friends and no guns a formal sit downs allowed to not go armed in the the. I guess the trick was on them. I wonder I I'd like to set in on some of that planet. Wouldn't you heard the different discussions? You know everybody had to float ideas and and come back because it has to go perfectly. You can't mess this up if you're going to do this. Big of action is gotta go down perfectly. You can't leave anybody live and you can't get caught and it's just it's huge so I can't even imagine the planning that went into this one but they did get them isolated inside of the tavern believed that they of course and So they did. Divide the Labor. Messina was responsible for for getting rid of the bodies and I can't remember what what Sunny Sunny Napolitano was was putting together the crew. Who would actually shoot them. Messina would get rid of the bodies like you say it was. There was a lot of planning. They did have. It separated. Kind of like what happened with the splotches here in Chicago. It's my understanding. The reservoir for Envio Zippo was probably one of the trigger man. Although he swore he wasn't but he was inside the jewelry and he steps out with a gun and act. Like it's a robbery and and say you know stick your hands up and and then course of bullets start flying now. He claims he didn't fire other people fired. I don't really buy that but But you know that's that's how it went down and as you said that I didn't really realize it was Masino. He had some other guys. Come in Dispose of the bodies and I guess they buried him in a mob graveyard. Did that ever come to light. You know I can't find it was it was a place called the whole. I think it was a it was a nun. Oh Yeah it was a division in New York and unincorporated small section New York and Yeah. They dumped all three bodies nineteen days later. They found a sonny red and delicate. Does body okay. I thought his his his cardiac watch. And then so I guess Joe Massino faced a lot of heat because they found the body right away and they said you know he did a bad job now in Chicago that got kill. Roddick killed this Jakonen and trench era. We're we're both. They were thrown along side but their bodies were not found for another one hundred twenty five or thirty years so I guess they space them all out in the same field but they didn't look to thoroughly but they found this sunny read indelicate. Kado about within ninety days of his being shot. Well it worked out well for man Joe Masino because he went on to be the boss. But that's a that didn't work out so well for other people. They made kind of a poor choice. Said that when they made. Joe Massino the boss over the next several years didn't they? You know what's interesting about? This too is at Donnie BRASCO Joe. Pistone was in the middle of all this working for a Sunny Napolitano who is on the side that killed the three guys and so he was in the middle of it. He was able to testify again about much of this. But masino never went down for that. Donnie BRASCO stuff because apparently from what I've read Masino was he didn't trust on Hebranko. He said he might be bad from the beginning so he always avoided him which I thought was in. Sonny Black NAPPA Tano. Didn't he get killed? Really as a result of being stupid enough to allow this Donnie. Brasco JOE pistone dude. In as far as he got in yes and that was sonny. Red Delco and Sonny Black Napolitano both both sunny Scott taken out. Actually they were ever going to bring jobs. Donors Sunny Donnie. Brasco IN TO HIT SOMEBODY. And that's when they had the surfacing. What's what's interesting is is a guy named Frankie. Lino drove these three cappos to this hit and when they walked in the door nobody was watching the back door. So Frankie Lena's following him the door these these hit cruise all spring on them. Start KILLING HIM FRANKIE. Lino the driver. He panics and he runs out the back and so they go after a. May Miss Him. He GETS AWAY HIS COUSIN. Guy Eddie Lee knows in the Gambino and they track him down this Frank Lino and they say look. Here's the deal you'll be spared. You've just got to come in. And and you gotta understand that this is out is and so he he he got a pass. Bruno Lindela Kado son of Sonny red got a pass for the time being and then later on this Frank Lino. Who was the driver? He was the one he was. He was the man they used to kill. Sonny black okay. Because he would. He would be familiar with him and he could. He could get close enough to him. The driver of these three hit-men later on killed Sonny Black Napolitano. It's it's funny. How these east tangled webs of relationships we also intimate about how they shake hands and kill each other. I know it's crazy. This as it gets really complicated. Just those shorthand here Wire-tappers out there you know. Just go back to Joe Bonanno as his sizeable successful crime family. They're involved in narcotics. Come down the Middle East through Montreal. And Vito and his Mafia family and his connections up there were in on that and they were helped. Bring a heroin carmine the Cigar Galante. He becomes the boss of the Banana Family self-proclaimed but he is the boss for awhile and he has some rivals. Kill him then in the banana family. There's a split. And Joe Masino is on one side. And he sets up a hits on these. Three Has hit on his three rivals. The murder of the three cappos and it gets veto resute. Oh to come down and help and during this time. Fbi agent. Joe pistone is infiltrated. The Banana Family Sonny black the polly Tainos crew and and Joe. Joe Messina Most Joe. Masino wants is mentor. Sonny black murdered when that surfaces so And he also understand He wanted his hands. Cut Off to signify missing. The handshake does an ASS act of trust. Which is interesting. I've seen pocket slid open here in Kansas City. I I don't know if that's the only one I really remember seeing. So that's you know that's kind of it in a nutshell Joe Masino got convicted. Now what does that have to do with Vito? Rudo coming down here to jail to the penitentiary for those ten years. We got it now. We gotTA finish it off with that. That's right now. How did that Happen Cam? Joe Messina was arrested in a much later for for Rico conviction in two thousand and three I think so masino being the big wealthy rich guy that he is. He can't do the time so he is. The first boss of a mob family rolls over in two thousand three. He rolls over and becomes a federal witness for the government. And as part of that immediately Vito Rizzuto gets a call from the banana. Saying hey you might WANNA WANNA keep an eye here your buddy Jo Masino just flipped. You know he's got you on that murder of the three cappos in so vito rizzuto skins out for Cuba that's right. He spent time in Cuba and came back himself ended. They were after he stepped down here to the penitentiary for about ten years. And you know another. I think we said this before but they only got ten years for being part of this murder because Canada would not allow him to be extradited if the death penalty was that play in any case that they had on him so they reduced the actual charge against him to something less than murder so he couldn't get a burger the conviction for murder and and then have to be looking at the death penalty. Possibly so. That's that's why he did says a little time on that which I always find that interesting. I recognise still WANNA tempt fate though and he still denied taking any part he didn't pull that trigger. Like I said this bad blood. The first season is really parallels. A lot of this really close in he had a guy named Rene Deja Dean. It would be like the declan character. Who was running. His family was pretty important in family while he's incarcerated lack the way things had been going on and we talked about that before when he came out and Israelis all been killed in. The family was in disarray and Veto Suto just he pulled out all the stops and then he died shortly thereafter. So anything else. You want to add on to Montreal crime family. We've done enough yeah. I think that's good for Montreal. There's a lot going on Canada and so is a good place to revisit. This damned interesting it is. It really is so wire-tappers if you have a friend rally with a problem with drugs or alcohol make your first call to I call. Call eight one six three six one fifty nine hundred. Don't forget to go to your Vin. Mo- APP and my Vin Mo- name is at Gangland wire. Buy me a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer By get my movie. My nudist movie brother against brothers. I'm getting all kinds of of positive feedback on that you can. You can get it on my website for twenty five bucks but you'll get special features off the DVD but you can download it for dollar ninety nine for the standard definition View and Off Amazon and GIMME. GimMe a review a buck of that too. Which helps the podcast out? But give me a review because that helps to get about eight or nine all of them at all five star except one and they had real positive comments and people really liked his movie so I'm proud of it You got my original movie. Gangland wire which you can get Amazon rent or I've got the DVD with the special features on my website. Got My book leaving Vegas how. Fbi worked APPS in mob domination of Las Vegas Casinos. And then you've got the Kansas City mob door APP so I think I've done enough commercialize. Don't you GAM I do? I do you know I'm going to be on. This is up time. This comes up this newsmax interviews going to be already over and go another thing. Going on is That's an interview about the Gotti family's I'm brushing up on the Gotti family that's GonNa be alive Interviews number will be about six or eight minutes. He told me so. If you happen to see me on it you know or you did see me. Why just a fluke on him know exactly? I guess it's going to be January. Sixteenth seven to eight. I believe so. That's I mean this. Come OUT AFTER. That's over anyhow so Disregard all that I am going to be on a the Las Vegas Review. Journal is doing a podcast series. It'd be like one season limited series on the mob in Las Vegas in the seventies so the hole in the wall gang. Tony's lladro They've got Frank Gugliotta that recorded him my friend Bill Housley and again talk about the skin. You're getting record be and and so we can look for. I'll start promoting that whenever that podcast gets out because I think they're going to do a really good job. They actually have a budget from the mob museum folks so budget to go out and do stuff with you yes. It does. Make a difference. You get a hire people to do this stuff that I guess. I kind of know what I'm doing but I get complaints for a long time about the technical aspect of it but anyhow moving right along all right Camp I appreciate you as always helping me out with this research and Co host in this program and we will see you soon. Great Time My folks music provided by our good friend. Superfan from Portland Oregon. Casey McBride Thanks Casey.

Canada Montreal Chicago S. Joe Massino Kansas City United States heroin Gambino murder Beato Rizzuto New York City Joe Masino Joe Messina Galante Sicily Carlo Glenn Hayes Joe pistone Mafia
Jimmy Hoffa Pt. 1

Conspiracy Theories

41:15 min | 6 months ago

Jimmy Hoffa Pt. 1

"The Around two PM on July thirtieth nineteen seventy-five. Jimmy Hoffa pulled his Green Pontiac sedan up to the matches red. Fox Restaurant in the Detroit suburbs the moment Jimmy entered the establishment. The waitstaff escorted him to his usual table as former president of the teamsters labor union. He was a local celebrity. But multiple run INS with the law a brief stint in prison and connections with organized crime head cost Jimmy that position. Now. He was here to get it back. Jimmy was. To meet with organized crime members, Anthony Tony Pro Provenzano an Anthony Tony Jack Jack alone. If Jimmy could settle some issues with them. He might be able to return as union president but Tony Pro and Tony Jack never arrived by two thirty PM Jimmy was tired of waiting. He left a twenty dollar bill on the table and went across the street to the nearest phone booth. He called his wife Josephine to tell her he'd be home by four, but his Jimmy headed back to his car a burgundy mercury. Marquee. Pulled up beside him. On lookers say they saw Jimmy talked to three unidentified men. He then entered the back seat of the vehicle and was never seen again. Welcome to conspiracy theories a podcast original. Every Monday and Wednesday. We dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events in search for the truth I'm Carter Roy and Molly Brandenburg, and neither of us are conspiracy theorists but we are open minded skeptical and curious don't get US wrong. Sometimes, the official version is the truth but sometimes it's not you can find episodes of conspiracy theories and all other park has originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream conspiracy theories for free on spotify just open the APP. And type conspiracy theories in the search bar. This is our first episode on. Jimmy Hoffa President of the teamsters Labor Union from the late nineteen fifties to early nineteen seventies to me contributed to the middle class workforce by unionizing contracts and ensuring fair practices in the workplace. But his means were hardly ethical Jimmy accomplished much of his growth by involving the teamsters with America's most dangerous mobsters. This episode we'll see how Jimmy Hoffa went from working class hero to one of the most notorious cold cases in history. Next, time will take a look at the suspects from Jimmy's closest friends to the Federal Bureau of Investigations and a notorious serial killer. We have all that and more coming up stay with us. Born in nineteen thirteen Jimmy are Hoffa was never a stranger to hard work His father John was a coal miner gave his life to the job literally. The poor conditions in the minds lead to an incurable respiratory disease John passed away when he was seven after his father's death, Jimmy's mother Viola was forced to go back to work but she struggled to make ends meet as a result Jimmy dropped out of school. When he was fourteen to help support the family he later Leonard a job as a warehouseman for krogers grocery store life in the warehouse was tough at the time. There were hardly any regulations to ensure a fair labor practices. Jimmy and his co workers weren't allowed to leave the loading platform or take breaks, and if there were no deliveries on a given day management refused to pay them. So in nineteen, thirty to nineteen year old Jimmy took matters into his own hands an organized a strike against Kroger. Grocery store. Jimmy Co workers refused to unload boxes of strawberries until the company met their demands, more breaks and a set payment whenever they showed up to work. Jimmy strike caught the attention of the teamsters labor union primarily composed of warehouse and transportation workers like truckers and cab drivers labor unions such as the teamsters ensured that businesses treated their employees fairly. Essentially, they saw power in numbers. If a few employees were being wronged, the union rallied all members together to make sure changes were made in since most goods couldn't be delivered without truckers and warehouses couldn't be stocked without laborers. The teamsters were one of the most powerful unions in the country because of Jimmy's organizing abilities, the teamsters were eager to recruit him. There was young passionate and he knew how to rally his men. Within his first year of union membership, Jimmy was promoted to business agent for the Detroit local to ninety nine branch as a business agent Jimmie handled the union chapters day to day operations. He was primarily a liaison between workers and union management. Jimmy enjoyed making a difference for the working class, but his quick ascension also made him hungry for more power. He do whatever it took to rise through the unions ranks. In that meant forming ties with organized crime. In the mid Nineteen S A teamsters secretary named Sylvia A- Gano introduce Jimmy to a local Detroit mobster frank three fingers Coppola. Sylvia told Jimmy that Coppola could help with his career in turn. Coppola introduced Jimmy to Anthony Tony Jack Jack Aloni. Tony Jack was the Capo or crew leader for the Detroit Sicilian mob as promised the connection boosted Jimmy standing within the teamsters union. Now when Jimmy organized a strike businesses didn't just face the threat of losing their workers. They also faced retaliation from the mob. Jimmy's connection to the Union. Benefited the Mafia's well, it gave them a cover when they intimidated business owners for so called protection. If. Those businesses refused to pay up Jimmy ordered his union to strike more often than not these strikes turned violent. Jimmy said that within his first year of joining the Union, his scalp was laid open sufficiently wide to require stitches no less than six times. Essentially, this is how things went. The teamsters would strike and refused to do their jobs in response companies hired strikebreakers. These were men outside of the Union who crossed the unions picket lines and did the job instead police were deployed to protect the strikebreakers frequently led to violent assaults on the teamsters. So the teamsters retaliated with arson bombings, theft, and looting to top it off the mafia hitmen to the business owners homes. If matters still weren't resolved, it was brutal but effective and thanks to Jimmy. Hart? The mob union partnership flourished. As the years passed. Jimmy used this relationship to solidify his position within the teamsters union. In nineteen, fifty, two at thirty, nine years old Jimmy was elected as its vice president three years. Later he developed the Central States Pension Fund the Pension Fund allowed employers to make regular contributions to the union members retirement before Jimmy created it, union workers were completely reliant on social security to stay afloat Jimmy oversaw the fund and controlled where the money was distributed after a few years of contributions the fund racked up two hundred million dollars in contributions about two billion dollars today it was a game changer Jimmy's direct access to the Fund meant he could dip into it anytime he wanted. And he wasn't shy about rewarding his friends in organized crime. In the first few years, he loaned the Mafia millions from the pension fund. They use the money to build casinos in Havana Cuba and Las Vegas Nevada. Jimmy wasn't exactly concerned with the legality of the arrangement or that the money wasn't going to union members. He was willing to look the other way in exchange for a personal kickback. Jimmy's illicit actions eventually garnered unwanted attention from the Press Victor Resell and investigative reporter for The New York journal American caught onto his game in nineteen fifty six. He erred a radio broadcast targeting corrupt union leadership including teamsters, leader Jimmy. Hart. But on April Fifth Nineteen fifty six, just a few hours after the broadcast reese'll stepped out of New York City, restaurant and was met with a face full of acid resolve was permanently blinded in August nineteen, fifty six. The FBI found the assailant. Their suspect was a man named Abraham Tell v he was an associate of the Sicilian mob in probably connected to Jimmy Hoffa. But by the time, the FBI track till the down, he already been murdered by the gangsters who put him up for the job. The attack on resell inspired us. Senator John L McClellan to take matters into his own hands. He created the McClellan committee in January of Nineteen Fifty, seven today. It's better known as the United States Senate Select Committee on improper activities in labor and Management Senator John F. Kennedy and his brother Senator Bobby Kennedy were also members of the committee. Like victory sel bobby wanted to end the mafia's role in labor unions bobby new Jimmy. Hoffa was the glue that held the teamsters and Mafia together. He was also certain. Jimi played a role in the attack on Russell and the senator was determined to make Jimmy answer for it. On February twenty sixth nineteen, Fifty, seven, one, point two, million Americans tuned in to watch the McClellan. Committee's I hearing. Everyone wanted to see if Bobby Kennedy could take down Jimmy Hoffa the hearings continued for the next few months but the committee had no evidence that directly pointed to Jimmy Hoffa's involvement with organized crime. In fact, the televised hearings only made Jimmy more powerful. American. Saw Him as a working class hero a clean and honest man and later in one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, seven. Jimmy. Hoffa became president of the teamsters union president of the teamsters union or not. Bobby Kennedy wouldn't let Jimmy off so easily. It was personal. Now, the hearings sparked a rivalry between Jimmy and bobby who was convinced Jimmy was guilty but Jimmy wouldn't be caught. So easily he obsessed over the McClellan committee's inner workings and hired New York Attorney John C, chesty to infiltrate its offices. He wanted to spy in the committee's research. He needed to know what they had on him. So Jimmy offered chase. Twenty Four. Dollars or two, hundred, eighteen thousand dollars today to gather that information except Chase de reported Jimmy's bribery attempt directly to the committee. Wanting to get back at Jimmy Bobby Kennedy offered chased E A job. The two formed a plan to take down Jimmy Hoffa once and for all chase the arranged a meeting with Jimmy and said, he would give him sensitive documents from the McClellan committee's HQ for a price. Meanwhile bobby planned to catch Jimmy at this meeting red handed on March Thirteenth Nineteen fifty seven, the FBI surrounded the park where Chase D. and Jimmy met. They closed in on Jimmy as soon as he handed over an envelope of cash to chase. Jimmy was arrested in charged with bribery. Bobby was certain. Had enough to convict. Jimmy. WAS, so. Confident. He said that if Jimmy got acquitted, he'd jump off the Capitol building. Unfortunately, for Bobby Kennedy. was looking like he might need a parachute. Coming up Jimmy Hoffa evades criminal charges again. This. Episode of conspiracy theories is brought to you by simply safe simply safe was designed to be easy to use well protecting your whole home twenty, four seven. You can order it online with the click of a button once I received mine I couldn't believe how easy was to set up I placed the sensors where I wanted them plugged it in, and once it connected to my Wifi, my home was completely protected. There's so much to love about simply safe. But one of the things that most impresses me is how the technology knows how to differentiate between people and pets. My Cat Sal is constantly moving around and it somehow knows to ignore her there twenty, four, seven, professional monitoring and emergency dispatch starts at only fifty cents a day. They can easily see why simply safe was named best overall home security of twenty twenty by US News, and world. report. Had To simplisafe dot com slash conspiracy and get a free hd camera that simplisafe dot com slash conspiracy to make sure they know that our show sent you. Now back to the story. From the Nineteen Thirties to the nineteen fifties Jimmy Hoffa steadily climbed the teamsters, labor unions ranks, but that power came with a price. Thanks to Jimmy's connection to the Italian Mafia. He became Senator Bobby Kennedy and the McClellan committee is number one target and in nineteen fifty, seven bobby finally got forty four year old Jimmy. Red. Handed in a bribe attempt in June of that year Jimmy was met in court by a predominantly black jury. The jury's composition was in his favor. Jimmy was a public supporter of Martin Luther King Junior and was also known for refusing to segregate the teamsters by race. And Jimmy also knew how to manipulate people in his favor after learning of the primarily black jury Jimmy had a black female lawyer join his legal team. He also had the black boxer, Joe Louis Flown in to hug him in front of the jury. Thanks to this publicity, black newspapers, ran ads praising Jimmy for being an advocate of civil rights and it all worked in Jimmy's favor. He pled not guilty and was acquitted of the bribery charges. Jimmy's attorney later sent a gift wrapped box to Bobby Kennedy. A toy parachute for his jump from the Capitol building. Meanwhile Jimmy went back to running the teamsters. Union. He selected a man named Frank Fitzsimmons as his vice president mainly because fits was easy to control and would do exactly as Jimmy said Jimmy also promoted Tony Tony. Pro. Provenzano member of the Genovese crime family to Vice President of the New Jersey teamsters faction the AFL CIO or the American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations was not happy about Tony Pros new position. In fact, they threatened to kick the teamsters out of the Union Federation unless Jimmy reversed his decision instead Jimmy responded by giving Tony Pro another salary raise. So in December of nineteen, Fifty, seven, the AFL CIO fulfilled their promise in remove the teamsters from their federation. Jimmy and the teamsters didn't need the AFL CIO to back them up. Around the time, they got kicked out of the organization Italian Mafia Don Russell Bufalino introduced his best Hitman to the teamsters. Frank the Irishman Sheeran was a six foot four truck driver with an intimidating presence and after years of odd jobs and running scams Sharon wanted to join a union to secure a nest egg for his family. Sheeran was just the kind of Guy Jimmy was looking for when they spoke over the phone Jimmy said, I heard you paint houses meaning he'd painted A. Few walls red with blood Sharon responded I do my own carpentry work to he also hid the bodies. Jimmy told Sharon to report to local to ninety nine in Detroit. The very next day SHEERAN was tasked with organizing strikes and intimidating strikebreakers with his size. He also became the teamsters go to hit man he performed well and didn't ask questions which earned Jimmy's respect. But Frank Sheeran couldn't protect Jimmy from Bobby. Kennedy. Even. After escaping the bribery charge Jimmy was buried under an avalanche of lawsuits for various alleged misdeeds a typical day for Jimmy Hoffa was spending the morning in court waging war against Bobby Kennedy. After lunch, he headed over to the local to ninety nine office answered phone calls and Organiz Union members many were impressed with Jimmy's composure as he navigated numerous trials in talked his way out of difficult situations it seemed like nothing could bring him down. That is until John F. Kennedy was elected president of the United States in nineteen sixty. He appointed his brother Bobby as the attorney general giving Jimmy's nemesis shared control over the FBI along with J Edgar Hoover before JFK's presidency, the FBI's main focus was eradicating communism in the US. But Bobby Kennedy still had his sights set on Jimmy Hoffa and organized crime. So, bobby created the get HOFFA squad. It was composed of prosecutors and investigators dedicated to taking down Jimmy. HOFFA. With the HOFFA squads resources at Bobby, Kennedy's fingertips. He was able to dig up dirt from Jimmy's passed in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, two, bobby hit forty, nine year old Jimmy with another indictment this time it was over a shady practice. Jimmy started all the way back in nineteen forty, nine, that year, Jimmy and his friend Oh and Bert Brennan created a car hauling company called test fleet. But they didn't want to be associated with their new business, Jimmy and Brennan registered it under their wives maiden name's to avoid detection. They probably did it to go behind the teamsters unions back when the Union strike against a service called commercial carriers. Test Fleet crossed the picket lines into over its operations not only was Jimmy betraying his own union. He made a massive profit doing. So the HOFFA's and Brennan's made close to one hundred and twenty five, thousand dollars off a mere four thousand dollar investment. That's a one point three million dollar profit today. And the teamsters had new idea, their faithful leader was involved test fleet shut down in nineteen, fifty seven possibly because Jimmy didn't want his pass to haunt him once he became union president. But he didn't hide his tracks well, enough five years later. Bobby Kennedy discovered the truth he accused Jimmy a violating the Taft Hartley. which forbade employers from paying off union representatives. Essentially Bobby claimed that commercial carriers pay to me off by hiring test fleet. However Jimmy refuse to go down without a fight even though he was only facing misdemeanor charges, he didn't want Bobby Kennedy to beat him. So Jimmy hired the best legal team possible. He had a successful Supreme Court lawyer Tommy Osbourne along with attorney Bill Bufalino the cousin of the mob boss who introduced Jimmy to frank the Irishman Sheeran. But even with his crack legal team to meet wasn't confident he'd emerge unscathed. So he decided to dabble in jury tampering to guarantee his name was cleared except Jimmy made the mistake of telling Louisiana teamster Edward Grady pardon his plans. Pardon had a criminal history. So Jimmy thought he could trust him with his own crimes. Apparently that wasn't the case pardon reported Jimmy to Walter Sheridan, Bobby Kennedy's closest confidant on the get Hoffa squad. All the while Jimmy was trying to bribe his way to an acquittal. I, he tried to pay off an insurance broker who held a seat on the jury. The juror went to the judge and said his neighbor on him ten thousand dollars to vote for acquittal. Today, this would be worth about eighty, five, thousand dollars. The man was quickly excused Andrew placed next Jimmy attempted to bribe a Tennessee state trooper whose wife was on the panel. The trooper accepted the bribe from Jimmy's camp but was caught by an FBI agent. His wife was also excused from the jury. The last straw was when Juror claimed a union business agent visited his son in Detroit. That business agent obviously working for Jimmy. For. The jurors son ten thousand dollars as well. He even gave him half as a down payment that juror was also excused. Jimmy had no idea pardon had betrayed him instead Jimmy was convinced the government was wiretapping him. By May Ninth Nineteen Sixty three the court had enough evidence of jury tampering to turn that Little Misdemeanor into a felony. But on June fourth of that year things escalated further. Jimmy was also indicted for the fraudulent misuse of the central states. Pension Fund Jimmy had invested the truckers pension money into a land development called Sun Valley. He said, it was a place for the teamsters to retire, but he had allegedly taken more than four hundred thousand dollars from the fund to build the community. It's three million dollars today. Sun Valley was a swampy piece of land that was hard to manage. The development quickly went bankrupt, which led Jimmy to take another five hundred thousand dollars from the pension just to earn the investment back and Bobby Kennedy caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. Now, Jimmy was facing charges of fraud conspiracy and jury tampering Jimmy's lawyers had the jury tampering trial postponed until January nineteen, sixty four. So they could prepare their wiretapping arguments. Meanwhile, Jimmy's attorney Osborne was disbarred for tampering with the test fleet. With him off the legal team things were looking dire for Jimmy. But on November twenty second nineteen, sixty, three the day after Osborne's disbarring president. John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas Texas upon hearing the news Jimmy distasteful responded by standing on a chair in a restaurant declaring quote I hope the worms eat his eyes out. And the day of John Kennedy's memorial Jimmy Hoffa went on national television to attack the government for disbarring Osborne. There were no condolences for the Kennedy family. In fact, Jimmy was so callous Bobby Kennedy suspected he and the Mafia could be behind his brother's assassination. Many conspiracy theorists shared the same suspicion. After JFK tried to overthrow Cuban leader Fidel. Castro in nineteen sixty one. Many of the Mafia's casinos in Havana were shut down which meant they had a motive to me and his team of mobsters could have easily paid off the assassin Lee Harvey Oswald to make the hit. But there wasn't any concrete evidence to connect Jimmy to JFK's assassination. However bobby had plenty of Ammo for Jimmy's upcoming trial. When Jimmy's jury tampering trial arrived in January nineteen, sixty four, the prosecution delivered a surprise witness Louisiana teamster Edward Grady, pardon? For the first time Jimmy realized there was a mole in his midst. In the defense room at the courthouse the ever. So calm Jimmy Hoffa lost his composure. Jimmy screamed at his attorneys. He threw chairs across the courtroom he cursed out members of the committee. But his little Tantrum didn't help his case on March fourth nineteen, sixty, four Jimmy. HOFFA was found guilty of jury tampering in the test case. That was quickly followed by another guilty verdict for conspiracy and fraud in the sun. Valley case Jimmy Hoffa was sentenced to thirteen years at the Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary in Pennsylvania. Which meant the union king had to rescind his teamster thrown? But not without a fight. Coming up Jimmy Hoffa's long list of enemies comes back to haunt him now back to the story. In nineteen sixty, four, fifty, one year old. Jimmy. HOFFA was sentenced to thirteen years in prison for jury tampering fraud and conspiracy while acting as teamster union president. At first Jimmy, maintained his role as president while behind bars. But. It wasn't easy. Phone calls weren't allowed and the only letters he could ride were to his family. So Jimmy task the union's Vice President Frank Fitzsimmons with taking over the day to day operations fortunately. Jimmy Son. Twenty six year old James P. Hoffa worked as an attorney for the teamsters. Jimmy relayed information fits in the union directly through James Junior fits was easy to control but that's because he was completely check out. While fits was in charge, the mafia withdrew more money from the pension fund than ever before if the Union didn't regain some control soon, it could be in serious danger. Jimmy felt like he was the only one who could save it and if he played his cards, right he could reclaim the presidency and get released from prison in nineteen sixty seven Jimmy's attorney Morris Schenker devised a get out of jail. Free. Plan. Schenker was going to secure a presidential pardon from Richard Nixon on Jim's behalf. But that would only work if Nixon was elected. So Jimmy's team gave regular contributions to Nixon's campaign to help things along in fact, Jimmy was so focused on his potential release he barely noticed when Bobby Kennedy was fatally shot on June fifth nineteen sixty eight. Unlike his celebration one JFK died Jimmy made no public mention of Bobby's death. On top of the pardon scheme, Jimmy was also busy with prison politics. His longtime teamster ally Tony Pro. From the Genovese crime family was also at Lewisburg State Penitentiary for extortion one day in the cafeteria tony pro asked Jimmy for help as a member of the teamsters union Tony Pro wanted to make sure he could still receive his pension once he was released. Jimmy said he wanted to help but crimes like extortion made Tony Pro in eligible to collect his pension. Even as union president there was nothing Jimmy could do tony pro took this personally he knew Jimmy. Had Access to the funds in the past. So the excuse wasn't good enough. Tony pro responded by threatening to rip Jimmy's guts out if he didn't help but Jimmy wasn't afraid Tony. Pro was influential in the mafia, but he had less way than Jimmy with powerful dawn's like Russell Bufalino on Jimmy's side Tony. Pro. Wouldn't do anything rash even. So Jimmy and Tony Pros relationship was permanently fractured. However just because Jimi didn't help tony pro that didn't mean he wasn't still involved with the teamsters union. In early nineteen seventy-one Jimmy was denied parole because he was still wheeling and dealing for the teamsters. If you wanted parole, he had to give up his title as president. Jimmy considered it. Until Frank. FITZSIMMONS announced his intention to run for teamsters president in the next election. Jimmy was infuriated he felt betrayed by his own puppet Wahad in April nineteen seventy-one, a family tragedy gave Jimmy, the opening who needed. When his wife Josephine had a heart attack Jimmy was given permission to visit her in the hospital. Jimmy used the temporary release to meet with his fellow union leaders as well. It's unclear what they discussed, but many believed it had to do with Richard Nixon in Jimmy's presidential pardon. Now, that Nixon was president, it was time for him to thank Jimmy for his generous campaign contributions. But apparently, the wheel still needed greasing in May nineteen seventy-one Union Hitman Frank. The Irishman Sheeran got a call from Mafia Don Russell. Bufalino. He needed Sheeran to make a delivery. Sharon was sent to the Hilton Hotel in Washington DC with a suitcase containing half a million dollars. A few minutes after arriving in the lobby President Nixon's Attorney General John Mitchell sat down beside him Mitchell then took the suitcase and said. Nothing comes cheap. He then got up and left Sheeran alone in the lobby. As Sharon. Told it in his book I heard you paint houses. He was certain. The money was a bribe for Jimmy's pardon however sheeran and Jimmy weren't the only ones bribing the Nixon administration. Frank Fitzsimmons also sent half a million dollars. He claimed the money was for Jimmy's release, but it came with a stipulation fits wanted a guarantee. The Jimmy couldn't run against him for teamsters president allegedly, that money was provided to fits from Tony Pro. It was revenge for Jimmy, not helping him with his pension Jimi knew not to look a gift horse in the mouth. He agreed to step down as union president hoping it would secure his release he deal with fits looney was free. But. In the summer of Nineteen seventy-one, the parole board once again denied Jimmy's released they still suspect at the Jimmy was involved with organized crime he had resigned for nothing. After Jimmy's parole was denied fits publicly urged Nixon to pardon Jimmy Hoffa? Now Jimmy was barred from running for teamsters president until nineteen eighty, he no longer posed a threat on December sixteenth nineteen, seventy-one Jimmy's attorney filed a petition for a presidential pardon. The pardons skipped the usual authorization process from the justice. Department, and the FBI. Instead it was expedited in approved by Nixon's Attorney General John Mitchell who had accepted the suitcase full of cash. From Frank. Sherron Jimmy was released from prison on December twenty third nineteen seventy-one. But he wasn't ready to relax and enjoy his freedom. He wanted his old job back. In nineteen, seventy, three Jimmy announced his plans to challenge the ruling. Nixon's pardon prevented him from running for union president. His timing was perfect that same year, the Watergate scandal broke. Nixon was too busy trying to save his own skin to deal with Jimmy Hoffa. In all the chaos, the terms of Jimmy's pardon were all but forgotten. So Jimmy was ready to challenge fits in the nineteen seventy-six Union election. But first, he needed the support of his enemy Tony Pro since Tony Pro headed. So many local branches whichever candidate he supported would probably win except Tony Pro and the other members of the mafia involved with the teamsters didn't want Jimmy as president. Fits lead them withdraw whatever they wanted from the pension fund. If Jimmy one they were worried, he tighten the purse strings again. Things came to a head on October Eighteenth Nineteen, seventy four at Frank Sharon's birthday celebration at Philadelphia's Latin Casino. Jimmy and many prominent mobsters were in attendance Tony pro had already convinced his fellow mob members to not support Jimmy's candidacy. So that evening. Mafia. Don Russell Bufalino sat down with Jimmy and calmly told him not to run for reelection Jimmy Bristled at Bufalino advice. This was everything he had worked towards. He was willing to do whatever it took to win even if it meant exposing the teamsters criminal associations under Fitz's, regime. Bufalino didn't take kindly to Jimmy's threats. Yet share and tried to defend his friend saying that it was only Jimmy puffing he wouldn't rat them out. WOULD HE TURNS OUT SHEERAN was wrong. Jimmy showed him a list of records the tied the mafia to the teamsters. He was serious about exposing them. Frank had no choice but to tell Bufalino. Several months passed and neither side budged. Eventually, Jimmy may have realized that his gambit failed on July twenty, eighth nineteen, seventy five. He told Frank Sheeran that he was ready to squash the feud with the mafia to that end Jimmy said a meeting with Tony Pro and Tony Jack Jack Loney of the Detroit mob. It was to take place on July thirtieth at the matches red, Fox restaurant in the Detroit suburbs Sharon advise Jimmy to bring his little brother meaning has gone. Jimmy S Sheeran join him instead. Sharing agreed but when he tried to run it by his boss Russell Bufalino, he was told to stay back at two. PM. On July thirtieth Jimmy pulled into the matches red foxes parking lot. The restaurant was in a busy shopping centre Jimmy believed Tony Pro wouldn't pull a dangerous stunt with so many people around however the mobsters never showed frustrated Jimmy Cross to a nearby hardware store to use the payphone. I. He called a teamster Buddy named Luis Lynn Toe and told him he was stood up. Then, he called his wife Josephine to say he'd be home by four. PM. Jimmy. Crossed back to the parking lot when a burgundy mercury marquee pulled up beside him. Three unidentified men chatted with Jimmy before he willingly got in the car. And that was the last time anyone saw Jimmy Hoffa. Next week, we'll take a look at several theories as to what happened to Jimmy Hoffa? Theory Number One, the FBI kill. Jimmy. So he didn't expose Nixon's ties to Frank Fitzsimmons and the mob theory number two Jimmy was killed by a serial killer named Richard The iceman Kuklinski who was responsible for over one hundred deaths in the area theory number three Jimmy's closest confidante frank the Irishman Sheeran was sent by the mafia to kill Jimmy the FBI has dug up fifteen different sites in search of Jimmy, Hoffa's body, but it has yet to be found some. He was dismembered in the Florida everglades or pushed out of a plane over lake. Michigan maybe even crushed in a car compactor and sold with scrap metal. But the question is, who is the one to blame? Thanks for tuning into conspiracy theories, we'll be back Wednesday with two of Jimmy Hoffa. Among many sources we found, I heard you paint houses by Charles, Brandt to be helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of conspiracy theories and all other park asked originals for free on spotify not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like conspiracy theories for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream conspiracy theories on spotify just open the APP and type conspiracy theories in the search bar until then remember the truth isn't always the best story and the official story isn't always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created by Max, Cutler in his AAC Park has studios original executive producers, include Max and Ron Cutler sound design by Schroeder with production assistance by Ron Shapiro, Carly Madden and Joshua Kern. This episode of conspiracy theories was written by Taylor bright with writing assistance by Maggie Admire and Stars Molly Brandenburg and Carter Roy.

Sherron Jimmy Jimmy Hoffa teamsters union Senator Bobby Kennedy Jimmy Co Jimmy strike Jimmy Cross Jimmy Son Jimmy Bristled Vice President Frank Fitzsimmo president FBI Jimmy distasteful Tony Pro Mafia attorney teamsters labor union Union Detroit Irishman Sheeran
Jimmy Hoffa

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36:15 min | 1 year ago

Jimmy Hoffa

"Ally why are you walking us out into the woods. Did you make a raccoon Harem again. No I do not believe ah look we just need to go a little farther into this grove here and Voila. Oh Hey guys. Oh Hey best friend what what. What are you guys doing out here? I had a GPS tracker installed in your hip two days after we met what it's not important but what are are you doing out here. Oh me I'm nothing. Nothing and why are you trying to how to shovel behind your back right now. I could see it. Oh this yup this some Nashoba. Yeah that's the motor Musashi workout. It's all the rage now in that whole back there. Nothing I don't know what Hol- what are you talking about. Let's just go back to studio. We can still go back right now. I get it. It's this week. We're doing Jimmy Hoffa so barren body out here something like a bit to go with Jimmy. That's cool that's cool. Can I touch it touch that. I would also like to touch the by the body that is it guys that is exactly. There's actually nothing in the whole week. We should just go back. Let's just go back what he go back to. What is this sticking out? This looks like an essay. An essay on Fatty arbuckle. Koos August. Though what is that all about Bette are bug zero talking really weird. Were you burying a citation needed script out here about fatty Freddie arbuckle. Maybe I don't know why it doesn't look bad eight. This is funny jokes on page two good story. I I don't know y you're the second half. Oh boy okay I get it now all right let me see that how bad could be. Wow Oh you guys wanna how many Berea barons the whole right here No that's that's us. That's saying Columbine Oh right. Oh God what about that. You're running on a space out here. We need a new spot new. Yeah still think we should have done terri. Schiavo he not having that conversation again Hello and welcome to citation needed the podcast where we choose a subject. Read a single article about it on Wikipedia. And pretend we're experts because this is the Internet and that's how it works now. I'm alive Bosnich. And I'll be uniting. This five-man workforce but I'll needs muscle and some brains. First step two guys who should probably start paying protection money to themselves. No and Tom Tom. Yeah but as learnt when I became self employed. I'm cheap I'm not saying that I'm self destructing but I am saying that I have only myself I self to blame so and also joining us tonight. Two guys old enough to played stick ball with our subject Noah and seesaw. I'll tell you HOFFA's batting average. We're playing stickball was local to ninety nine. Normally I would push back on the old thing but yeah I I must be getting all this fucking with my memory. Didn't you already introduce introduce me. Everybody is a person who is also here heath me welcome to the show. Thank you great. Now he cares when he's on the opening skit. It's all right. Take a moment. Thank our patrons. This is a beautiful little. Oh podcast you got here and it sure would be terrible if something happened to it. Luckily of an accent neighborhood over dot com slash sedation. Russian pod is kind of terrible tragedy would never take place so if you'd like to learn how to join the ranks. It'd be sure to check granted the other way. Tell US Tom. What person place thing concept phenomenon or event will we be talking about today? Well thank you to our patron box. Some not allowed near the end zone of giant stadium. Actually suits me just fine. I didn't WanNa go anyway but today we'll be talking about union leader Jimmy Hoffa who nc so you read between the lines. Are you ready to sell up the river literally any price talking skit. I I don't even care to huma. Hoffa Jimmy Hoffa was an American labor union leader when that actually meant something now it means that you're probably late on your mortgage. Yeah he was the president of the International Brotherhood of teamsters which is the truckers union and my dad teamster for several decades could not say this guy's name without calling him a crook he also went missing in one thousand nine hundred ninety five. They declared him dead seven years later but they've never found the remains and there were no convictions in the disappearance it just like Osama bin Laden and JFK. Interesting not at all like no yeah unrelated those people we shots I penciled dammit cancelled episode a hole in the forest take aac three. Jimmy was born in Brazil. Indiana Worst Carnival disappoint a AH fell one can use the bathroom. It was born on February fourteenth nineteen thirteen Valentine's baseball his his dad John Hoffa died. When Jimmy was seven from lung disease and the rest of the family moved to Detroit win? Hoffa was eleven. He quit school at fourteen years old and worked manual labor. Jobs like painting fulltime jean-mrs Apple Tree Shoe would be terrible if someone would paint your house when you at least you know what. This doesn't make any sense. I gotta get the new. y'All remember when people move to Detroit fifties. Yeah they're giving a stipend for that. They've been trying to get back. We have water now. You can drink on bottled some here. Hoffa moved on from painting houses to working in a grocery store chain when he was a teen. He became involved with the Union and organized labor. Around this time the job he was working page. Shitty wages had shittier working conditions and not a ton of job security so think professional snow podcast there with a boss done. That has nobody to blame but himself for his as best does covered. Works didn't do that. That especially since the workers wanted to unionize and Hoffa took the union leadership naturally Hoffa became inspired to work as a union organizer after a run in with an abusive forman when Jimmy stood up to him. The other employees were impressed by him so he moved on from that job and became became an organizer with the teamsters in Detroit local to ninety nine back when threatening people effectively was a valid line. Item on your resume. I I live in the wrong era. How about I fucking kill you? As a negotiation tactic that is sadly underused in today's Labour agree. Now it's fucking starve you and it's used by the other team and I don't mean you're fired and you're GonNa Starve. Congratulations you work at Walmart. Now you are below low the poverty. You made it to starvation cheeses a few years later. While working with non unionized laundry workers on their strike. He meets his soon to be wife. Josephine they married six months later. In September of Nineteen thirty six they go on to have two kids a daughter Barbara and a son James and I wanNA just quote wikipedia. Pedia here so you can hear the house price quote. The HOFFA's paid six thousand eight hundred dollars in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine for modest home in northwest Detroit. The family later owned a simple simple summer. Lakefront cottage in Orion Township Michigan North of Detroit. His son by the way thirty plus years after Jimmy is removed as the teamsters teamsters union president takes over the position. He's been the president since nineteen ninety. Nine yes true fact about that House in Detroit. It's actually worth less now than it was seven. Grandma gives you everything. North of I ninety in in the thirties the forties the teamsters grew pretty significantly in both numbers and power in one thousand nine hundred eighty when they were founded they had seventy five thousand members. There was a push push by Hoffa and other union leaders to consolidate other trucker unions with T- with the teamsters that made their membership grow to one hundred seventy thousand in nineteen thirty six and four hundred twenty thousand in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine and it was over a million by nineteen fifty one off one a bunch. A contract disputes using quickie strikes quickie strikes. We're only one side is happy about the outcome that checks get term and the Secondary Boycotts which leveraged other related industries to pressure Asher to put pressure on another to get them to cave to the demands of the Union would be like a grocery store strike to help get rights for farm laborers. It's hard to wrap your head around it but back then workers actually cared about other workers also since the teamsters were connected to a ton of professions since they delivered raw materials. Finish this project is that are they. Would they use to become the most powerful union in the country right That's why Amazon workers each their own P. Bucket now on everything and hey fun. Fact that secondary boycotts thing literally illegal now. So yeah if you're in a union don't like root too hard for a second bucket per a person shall. We can't even get everyone in the same room to decide that people shouldn't go bankrupt or die if they get sick I try to convince people to take time off of work to strike. Because their neighbors are striking is Utopian dreamscapes. We will never see again something. which I just said about the nineteen seventies seventies and the mob had its dirty hands in the pie to the truckers union were totally in bed with the Mafia? So this means that Hoffa in order to get and maintain power in the unions had to deal with mafia bosses quote he had to make accommodations and arrangements with many gangsters. Beginning getting in the Detroit area organized crime influence over the I bt would expand as the union itself crew and quote okay but Nowadays Union leaders have to get in bed with unsavory unsavory characters like US Congress Giambi two hours so even though Hoffa was a teamster n a union organizer Eiser. He never worked as a truck driver. Or a doc and that's how management works though and that's why it's better in nineteen forty six. In December. Jimmy Hoffa became the president of the Detroit. Local to ninety nine Hoffa received a draft letter for World War Two and he quote obtained a deferment deferment from military service in World War Two by successfully making a case for his union leadership skills being more valuable to the nation by keeping freight running smoothly to to assist the war effort end quote shortly thereafter. He became the head of the Michigan. teamsters dear Uncle Sam. These kneecaps ain't gonNA break themselves. I'M GONNA go ahead and pass La Jim I love it. The actual deferment was based on. I'm too important to get shot in. What does it say about the rest of you? I wear that shirt whenever I walk around Chicago useful. Nineteen fifty two. Jimmy Hoffa was elected national vice president of the teamsters that year the president of the I. B. T. Daniel Tobin was stepping down after forty five years on the job Daniels successor. Assessor Dave back was having some real difficulties securing all the support he needed to take over. And how a smoothed over any issues and exchange Hoffa got the number two spot okay. There's one one hundred percent chance after that. He just looked around the room. Like who doesn't love a solid number two poop joke trump said that this week the fifteen time five years later back was appearing before the US Senate Select Committee on Improper Opera activities in Labor or management field. He was questioned by Robert. F Kennedy a name that will appear later in the story about a missing three hundred and twenty two thousand dollars. There's from union treasury and he pleaded the Fifth Amendment meaning he refused to answer possibly incriminating questions. He pleaded the fifth one hundred and forty times. And I have. I have no idea what the over under pleading the fifth in his Senate questioning is but it seems hi how do they get all the way I two hundred and forty okay. Yeah I know I took the fifth one hundred thirty nine times in a row just now but No I'm totally. We're GONNA answer some of these questions. Just keep going go ahead. I feel like you're lying totally not lying. No I'm going to answer. Feels like I'm going to stop one hundred fortieth fortieth question and you're gonNA take no totes going to answer Doley. Just it's not gonNA be a joke. So where did you amendment. Okay okay in your face. We're GONNA murder you but we're GONNA murder you. Oh anyway at the big the Guy bt convention that year the Guy who was now under indictment got voted out and Hoffa was voted in as president of the teamsters back would be convicted of fraud fraud and get thirty months on release. He got his fifty thousand dollars a year pension from the teamsters and invested in parking. Lots dying ninety nine a millionaire. Can I just say parking lot. Union strong got a pension from the union that he was convicted of fraud. Again wrong Area HAFA created national master freight agreement. which is the terms of the contract for the Union truckers and trucking companies and? It was a huge piece of his legacy and Wikipedia. Says it could be the most important thing he did in his life. He also expanded the Union by unionizing over the road truck drivers into the teamster. Wait wait wait. Where were the existing teams under the road? This Gu quilting under the Road Schreker. I love it. He also tried to bring in airline workers but he did not have the success he had with over the road. Truck drivers all right well so far. It's just the charming tale of a legitimate businessman. Who looks out for the Little Guy? So I'm going to go get some cozy hot cocoa while we take a little break for something we call apropos of nothing and hi. I'm Tom and I'm no you know we've had a lot of funnier and citation needed today. About Jimmy Hoffa but there's also important lessons we think the modern worker could learn iron for instance. Do you know that instead of going through the long and often fruitless process of a wrongful termination lawsuit you can just break your bosses legs. And it's true through websites like glassdoor great way to encourage openness about salary in the workplace setting your bosses car on fire. It really is because while the robot is coming to take your job never needs a bathroom break also won't kill your boss and leave him in a river unions sometimes as you gotta murder I hi I'm heath minute and I'm alive. Bosnia guy stole are opening you. We Miss Different names. If you missed our live shows in New York faulk in you know not I was going to say what I was GonNa say is that we'll be putting up the full videos of the shows on Patriots Dot Com one show per month over the next four months and then then we will kill no yup not again. Not What I was GONNA say. Just wait until I've finished cool however we will be leaving each video up for just one month so there's never been a better time to sign up to be a patron at Patriot dot com slash citation pod not to mention patrons get access to our patron only Minnesota our suggestion inbox and much much more. That's right so if you want to see those videos and support the show sign up at patriotair dot com slash citation pot and if we don't get two hundred patrons by next week we've quit the show. No no no. We don't or do we don't look uh-huh and were back when we left off Jimmy Hoffa law-abiding citizen doing his best. What he had the Italian eye clarity next to overrun so half at that time? He was doing some Amazing Union inning. He was also under investigation and appealing fraud and jury tampering charges. This this is about fifteen years into him. Being President of teamsters and at this point they make Frank Fitzsimmons his vice president. And this I guess is the first time they name Amo. Vp is a direct successor. For that. I guess there was just a vote but they assumed he was going to go to jail and they needed someone there. That could just take over and keep the kickbacks rolling in great and that was our current events news break back. I wish if only we could replace ours with a long dead semi professional mobster. They was having all this trouble with the law. JFK was president. He don't interest in there. It is anyway Eddie. JFK appointed his little brother Robert. We mentioned him earlier as attorney. General interesting thank you For me me. And my family is not nepotism if the president does it down you'll use it later. RFK was supposedly supposedly pissed. He couldn't nail down Hoffa and other union bosses years earlier and he had an ax to grind so he came after Hoffa with guns. Blazing teamsters teamsters parade for Jimmy. Hoffa in Dallas is too obvious stave off these convictions. Convictions for a long time. He was initially investigated in earnest in one thousand nine hundred seven and it would take seven years for him to be finally convicted of a crime. It would be ten before he served any time. He was eventually convicted of attempted. Bribery of grandeur. How is that even a thing like obstructing justice? Yup Yup OPPA was also convicted of fraud in nineteen sixty four this was for improper use of the teamster pension fund quote Hoffa had illegally arranged several large pension fund loans to leading organized crime figures and quote. They were good for thirteen years in prison. Tried to appeal these sentences for three years and was unsuccessful. Damn thirteen years. You can get more time for very obviously not killing a lady in Texas. Yeah so just before. He enters prison the contingency vice president Frank Fitzsimmons takeover now. The reason he was chosen by half in in the first place is that he seemed really loyal to Jimmy. He owed pretty much all of his success to Hoffa. He was local to him as well and huff had gone to great lengths to consolidate date power as the president of the union run it unilaterally but once fit simmons was appointed as president. He started to undo the work that Jimmy Dunn and he relinquished. Relinquish some of that control that the president had. Jeez you caught a prison. One time everything falls apart around story. He undid everything he had done. What did you like disorganized? The worker give back a couple of snow. Okay you're presenting that like a joke which means you're not super up to speed on what unions have been doing so maybe you should pick somebody who's one of WHO's major qualifications was. He was nearby look at him. Rock seventy five years after go into jail. HOFFA had his sentence commuted to time served and he had to stay out of union leadership leadership for a decade. The Guy Responsible President Richard Nixon interesting Hoffa also got his pension of one point. Seven million dollars is a lump sum like he was some kind of a lot of winter I guess was there really was this was an unprecedented payout by the way and just two random facts here the I. B. T. had always endorsed Democrats however the teamsters endorsed Nixon in the last election. Interesting you you. He thinks I'm crazy as the next guy and the next guy is heat but an innocent was behind anything that I don't know about is a bridge too uh-huh and even though Hafa had his sentence commuted. He was still pissed that he couldn't play union games so he started suing the Nixon Administration nation. To get this overturn. That doesn't work though. Yeah maybe because he was suing them for not ignoring the law and now he's also so running into adversity in the union itself as most of the people in it had stopped supporting him he really only still held sway over the local union where he got his start. Detroit local to ninety nine. I know it does seem like you lose some support after going to jail for basically stealing from the people you were hired to represent I mean it seems like that's not a lock doc. We know trump sure is opening in his bid to get back into power. HOFFA tried to make a deal with the mafia one of the local. You leaders and made Guy Anthony. Provenzano was approached to endorse Hoffa. This meeting did not go well quote. Provenzano refused to listen and threaten Hoffa by saying that he would pull out his guts and kidnap his granddaughters. and quote. Ed as you can imagine Hoffa did not take this so well. He retaliated by cooperating rating with investigators and against his Mafia opponents asshole. I'M GONNA go hang out with Robert F Kennedy where it's always safe no matter what and Narcan you gonNA say like. That's so fucking weird threat once you pull out my guts. I have to tell you it's really selfish care so much about Mike Grandkids. I hate to give you notes on Air Bro. You're doing that shit in the wrong. July thirtieth nineteen seventy-five Hafa Autho was supposed to meet up with local mob. Boss Anthony Jack Loney and the guy that threatened to make sausage out of them Anthony Provenzano. He went to the local restaurant called the Red Fox to meet him. He's trying to hide a gun in the toilet tank but seventy five just shooting in the only man. I'm good take flush for his wife at two fifteen and another colleague at three thirty complaining that these these two were late. This was the last time anyone spoke to Hoffa. Well the last time anyone can prove anyway. Spontaneous combustion exact. Ah that night. He doesn't return home and they find his car unlocked at the restaurant. It's six PM. The following day Hoffa is reported missing the investigation really really doesn't go anywhere they did a DNA test in two thousand one on a hair that came from a car of a family friend and found a positive match but the guy denied that Hoffa ever been in the car and FBI. The I agent in one thousand nine hundred fourteen years after Hoffa went missing. Had this to say quote. I'm comfortable I know who did it. But it's never going to be prosecuted because we would have to to divulge informants and confidential sources and quote. Just check her emails. That's awesome. I'm a little confused like isn't that. What the informants are four like an academic exercise so there's been a ton of heath level speculation I think his and I'm GonNa include some of these from the wikipedia? Sorry did you say heath level I was a conspiracy theorist way before preempt awesome Noah level speculation as in like maybe it was that guy who said he was going to rip out his guts paragraphs of my money's on that the typical Noah always blame people for the threats day. May I told you once that restraining order expires get dual recently. Certainly the film. The Irishman was released to Netflix. Or as I like to call a two thousand one a mob hit a time. Odyssey started watching it just before thanksgiving. I'M GONNA finish sometime in March anyway. That movies based on a book called. I heard you paint houses in that book and in the film. They make the ascertain that professional killer that the professional that was close to Jimmy Hoffa Frank Sharon was responsible for killing Hoffa supposedly shot Jimmy in the back of that two times and the body was cremated. The evidence here is just non existent. Okay Hey are you calling. Martin Scorsese a liar guy. Who wrote the book that Martin Base the movie off of because Martin ever has an original fucking idea? Ah Blood bloodstains from that mob. House did not match. Jimmy's blood type so different. I was plugged in the back of the noggin close. So hey we just saved you four hours of the movie version of GRANDPA talking about so if I see another old man. Eight serial from zero to shoot myself fits was the big big big story so I can have eleven thousand thousand dollars. Split up among your eighty four grandchildren. Richard Cook Linski the notorious Mafia hitman. ICEMAN ICEMAN said HOFFA's body was putting a fifty five gallon drum and set on fire for a half an hour or so. The newsroom was welded shut buried. You didn't junkyard. And the drum was supposedly later dug up But a they put it not sure what they're talking about the body or the whole drama and then they smashed it. They put it in a car and they smashed into the compressor and the ship that that Japan for scrap and then we put in a rocket ship shot the entire body and they burned it for thirty men. Trying to seal into there followed a very strict recipe. Well we sous vide it in this guy xactly right so mythbusters did Jimmy Jimmy Hoffa special where they scan the ground at giants stadium with a radar to see if there were human remains under it and this was confirmed later when they tore down the stadium and look physically underneath and despite all that idiots from New Jersey still make dig here signs take them to the the new real and there can proud of it to the top Reverend's Quality Oak Tag Agam crushing this Joe CBS. I couldn't think of an acronym but I'm sure but isn't that the wrong sadie. Not right like I feel like did get dude died in Detroit. Maybe his body is somewhere in the Greater Detroit area. No but don't hate on this New Jersey's entire tourism economies clearly based on dead body to work. What else do they have? Here's another complete sleep misquote. Police took samples from the ground under a suburban Detroit driveway at least during the day after continuing after a person reported reported having witnessed the burial of body there around the time of Hoffa's nineteen seventy-five disappearance tests by Michigan State University anthropologist. This found no evidence of human remains. I love this guy. He's like he sees the damn body being buried these address. Nothing and then later that could be hop might might WANNA check also look mythbusters out a metal detector and some guy at Michigan state grabbed of dirt spontaneous combustion in another gangster said. They basically played the shell. Game with HOFFA's corpse. Tony's really said that he was buried in a shallow grave and they had planned to move him around bit but those plans deteriorated like a corpse in a shallow grave. He said that the location of the grave was near a field near the restaurant where Hoffa went missing in two thousand thirteen. Police dug up the area that he indicated and found nothing but the case remains open well to be fair. If the area indicated was just Detroit -TROIT's in general the police would have otherwise decoys the finally Michael Frenzy The New York mob boss claim to know. Oh where Hoffa was in an interview with a Youtube Channel. He said that he knew who the killer was to. His claim is that the commission the five mafia bosses in New York. Doc controlled organized crime across the country ordered it. He said quote. I can tell you the bodies very wet Kennedy and and the shooter is still alive today but currently in prison okay boomer okay but why would all those mobsters go to jail Douai for asking Jimmy the Sphinx Komeito wherever the fuck that is we could get answers answer to this shit. That isn't in the form of a fucking riddle the FBI did release a pretty obvious statement in the form of fifty six page memo in the Detroit. Free Press side note. Is there a page limit at which memo is no longer think novella. They don't speculate late on any of the information or facts regarding the disappearance itself but do speculate on the motive in it. They claim quote Hoffa was murdered at the behest of organized. Crime Crime figures who regarded his efforts to regain power within the teamsters as a threat to their control of the Union's pension fund end quote also murderers bad double space doubles as of Orange. We're the I think. The main main gist of this is that there were certain people who knew what happened to Hoffa and where the corpse was but they never said anything about it to anyone or if they did they were already recognized liars in so no one believed him so hard to find an honest mob murderer. These yeah can't trust them they should unionize. The one thing that isn't mentioned in the article is but it's pretty evident is the shit that this guy and other corrupt union officials pulled fueled Union Nyan distrust in the United Conservatives on both sides of the aisle back then latched onto the crop narrative and use this to discredit unions and help weaken them significantly. Only I know there are a lot of other factors involved in the decline of unions. But this cluster fuck should not be overlooked. Yeah if only unions had been perfect. I'm sure Jeff bezos would happily pay fifteen dollars an hour. I listened to ceaseless whole sentence so I'll young bad good guys are worse than bad bad assist. And if you had to summarize what you've learned in one sentence easel what would it be. My Dad was right. He was a goddamn chrome. and Are you ready for the quiz. So let's do this all right seesaw. Which of the following is the most valuable union benefit? We all still enjoy a the existence of weekends and thus the proliferation of workplace Monday jokes be a elimination of child labour. So Oh your children have more time home watching youtube videos of grown men playing fortnight see unions in large part responsible for healthcare being a private sector benefit secured through work or D.. Second Thought Fucking uh-huh definitely now I'm GonNa go with I'M GONNA go with B.. I'm a huge fan. I think we should be watching it. I'm such a fan of these so you got it all right. I got a good one for you. See so what cool line did the mobster that killed. Jimmy Hoffa say right before he Paul to trigger. Hey Osterloh teamsters mother be austell AVISTA smothered truck see. Here's here's looking for you or D- I'm GonNa Make Ya you also good. They're missing the fact that he was killed by the Jewish mob so how far Nettie La that is correct. That was secret. They all right one more for you seasonal. Why are you afraid of talk? You're part of the conspiracy and you're being paid off by a big rig. Your Dad clearly killed Jimmy. Hoffa really helped with the sword based parts parts of that murder. Deal about seventy five. I'm too and I'm like whacking his ankle with a little red. Go with all the above it. It was it was specifically. Just your dad killed because you only had to hack it his legs with so oh yeah. Ceaseless Dad did kill Jimmy spread out there like the LoC dead and it doesn't matter he's dead. You can't fuck imprison Asha Shit. Yeah I mean you can. I mean we already have their box. So he wins he wins. Next week. I'm going to pick Woah all right well for topsy. So Noah and Noah I've not back next week and by then Noah we'll be an expert on something else but you know and then he will be hiding an underground bunker from nicotine Lewis know who'll be honest search for flesh to rent and you can check out Thomas's those new city tour of Chicago another popcorn shop. And if you'd like to keep the show going you can make a patriot dot com slash citation pot or for leave us a five star review everywhere you can and if you'd like to get in touch with US check out past episode connect with us on social media or check the show notes be sure to check out citation pod dot dot com and remember. There's no better union negotiation than when you've kidnapped someone's daughter You're right see so burning them as a much better idea. Are you sure. There's a lot of good essays in here. I mean we got Jeffrey APP. No Sandy Hook absolutely not a weight ZIP lining put it in the fire okay.

Jimmy Jimmy Hoffa teamsters Labour president HOFFA Detroit Jimmy Hoffa Frank Sharon Hoffa Robert F Kennedy Wikipedia teamsters teamsters union Noah Tom Tom American labor union Freddie arbuckle vice president Chicago House murder FBI
An Author Investigates His Family Ties To Jimmy Hoffa's Disappearance

Fresh Air

49:07 min | 1 year ago

An Author Investigates His Family Ties To Jimmy Hoffa's Disappearance

"Support for this podcast and the following message come from cohnresnick whose business of baseball and original MLB video series shares key insights on the business side of America's America's pastime for a game changing strategies to help your business visit cohnresnick dot com slash mlb from whyy in Philadelphia. I'm Terry very gross with fresh air today. New Insights into the nineteen seventy five disappearance of the mob connected Labour leader Jimmy Hoffa who's portrayed by Al Pacino Achino insecure says he's new film the Irishman we talk with Jack Goldsmith who stepfather Chuck O'Brien spent decades at Hoffa side willing to do anything for his is boss like intimidate nosy journalists he purchased ahead of a cadaver put it in a box wrapped up the box and Senate to Martin Hayden. Who is the editor of the Detroit News when Hafa disappeared authorities fingered O'Brien as a prime suspect goldsmiths new memoir about investigating his stepfather's involvement in Hoffa's disappearance and about the abuse of Government Power Goldsmith headed George W Bush's Office of Legal Counsel where he challenged warrantless wiretapping and retracted memos that legally justified torture the new Martin Scorsese film the Irishman will introduce a new generation of Americans to Jimmy Hoffa the tough mob connected leader of the teamsters union who vanished and was presumed murdered in Nineteen seventy-five Hoffa's disappearance as one of the greatest unsolved unsolved crimes of the twentieth century our guest Jack Goldsmith has a close family connection to Jimmy Hoffa and his mysterious demise Goldsmith Smith is a Harvard law professor but he's best known for having headed the office of Legal Counsel in the George W Bush administration during his tenure he challenged warrantless wiretapping program and withdrew to memos written before his tenure justifying the use of torture in the war against terrorism goldsmiths new memoir in Hoffa's shadow is about his investigation into his stepfather's role in Hoffa's disappearance Goldsmith Stepfather Chuck O'Brien was a close associate of office for decades and when Hoffa disappeared O'Brien was suspected of having driven him to his execution. O'Brien is portrayed in Scorsese's Garcetti's new film by Jesse Plummets Al Pacino Plays Hoffa Jack Goldsmith spoke with fresh air's Davies. Will Jack Goldsmith welcome to fresh. I share this is quite a story and there's a couple of generations of Americans who don't remember Jimmy Hoffa. So why don't you just tell us a little bit about who he was and his place in the American Labor movement sure thank you for having me on Jimmy. Hoffa was the president of the teamsters union from nineteen fifty. Seven in two thousand nine hundred sixty seven the teamsters union was at the time the largest union union in the country and the most powerful Hoffa rose to become the ahead of the Teacher's Union from Detroit where he where he expanded his power over the decades he was simultaneously the best known Labor leader in the country the most powerful Labour leader in the country and also probably the most corrupt he had ties to organized crime. He was defiant of the law aw but he was much beloved by the members of his union because he was very successful in raising their standards of living right and of course he was was driven from the presidency of the teamsters after some criminal convictions of the Justice Department went after him in a very big way and then nineteen seventy five he disappeared appeared and is presumed to have been murdered. That's one of the great unsolved cases of the twentieth century. You're I guess in about eighth grader so then right and I was twelve years old. I think I was in okay. What was I in sixth grade. Okay and your family's life intersected with this case in a very personal way explain thing that for us six before Hoffa disappeared which was on July Thirtieth nineteen seventy five my mother married a man named Charles Chuckie O'Brien and I and it turned out that Chuckie O'Brien who was my stepfather at that point was Jimmy Hoffa's longtime right hand man and most intimate aid and and then after the disappearance six weeks after my mom married him he soon became the leading suspect in the disappearance and he was believed that he picked up Hoffa at enter outside of a restaurant where he was waiting and delivered him to his killers. How did this affect you and your family life well. It had an just an extraordinary impact. I it's hard to exaggerate how what a national circus the office appearance was. it was front page news news and on the evening news every night for weeks it was the largest one of the two largest investigations the FBI ever had chucky. Chucky was the central suspect on the front pages every day and so our lives were completely overwhelmed by it my mother at the time had been suffering from severe mental health issues and they got a lot worse because of this understandably and so it basically was a life record. He was accused on the front page of every newspaper then in ever since of basically picking up his man it was like a father to him and taking them to his death. Wow and you're a kid kid. what did it feel like was twelve years old when the disappearance happened. It was a discombobulating time to put it mildly. I had the new stepfather and I loved my stepfather. He had immediately from the time I met him. I had met him about six months earlier and we have become intensely close. He he was he was had a huge influence in my life he was incredibly loving and supportive and gave me attention that I'd never received my my real father father left when I was very young and so I was deeply loyal to him and then this happened and he portrayed it as a setup at the time and and I basically believe him at the time believed everything else he told me at the time about the mob the government set up and the like and but but having said that it was it was still very very difficult because we were bombarded with newspaper reporters and accusations my mom's mental my mom's health was spinning out of Control and my new stepfather what seemed to be in terrible trouble. What was chucky like. Tell us about it so he was he was amazing. I I mean he wasn't he was not a man who was well educated and he was not someone who I see now from my current perspective who care much about the law but he had varies firm sense of right and wrong and he taught us right from wrong in a in a in a way that had a huge impact on my life the main thing I can say about him. It was that despite all of his troubles he spent all of his time every second second of his free time devoted to be my two brothers and just everything we did and it's it's hard to exaggerate what an impact this had on me because as as I say I was basically fatherless for the first twelve years and it was the first time any male attention had ever come my way to that degree and so he basically did everything we wanted to do. We went to distant cower bookstores to get caught books. He always seemed to be able to get tickets to sports events. Even though he always had money troubles he went to all of Var athletic events he had big Cook cookouts for my team and he was just a hugely supportive loving father right and there were a couple of mob figures that he was close to you got to now right sure one was Anthony Jack alumnae a senior organized crime official in Detroit and another was Anthony Providence auto teamsters official and a member of the Genovese Genovese family in New Jersey and of course when I was a teenager I didn't know any of this. I mean I read the newspapers and saw them referred to his mobsters but to me they were uncle Tony and knuckle Tony and they were you know upstanding gentlemen. Uncle Tony Jacklin was impeccably dressed. He had a beautiful apartment that we used to go to a lot uncle. Tony Province Zano had an amazing pool table and we used to play there a lot and he ended up giving us that Pool Table One day so I was very close close to these people who are being described in the newspapers these horrible violent mobsters but to me they were family. Part of this book is sort of a look at the American labor movement and Jimmy Hoffa's is life and it's fascinating you know he had a reputation as a guy who was you know violent and corrupt you kind of the worst of the American labor movement and you argue so there's really more to his story. tell us what people don't know about. Hoffa his life and motivations. There's much more to a story and I I really do think that only one half of of Hoffa's career has been told the one you just described he came up through organized labor the hard way in the nineteen thirties thirties which was the most violent time in American labor history he was in constantly fighting with police in management in truly violent street fights where employers with the state behind it was truly violent towards efforts to organized labor unions at a time time when the American worker was just a terrible terrible shape so this is the Worl- he grew up in as a young man and it colored the way he looked at Labor labor relations with management and the government for the rest of his life and he basically assumed from that early period when he saw the state and management together fighting unions and violent ways he basically assumed and believed that was the way of the world ever since and that shaped his outlook he was also it's not well known but but he was also a true genius and this is not a word that it's not just something. I think it's what Labor stories who studied his career has had that a true genius at bargaining organizing and he built out the Teamsters Union and he leveraged the power over transportation and the ability to shutdown transportation which was at the heart of the economy to expand his power nationwide to the point where right at the height of his career right when he was the height of his criminal trouble he he one of an historic nationwide labor pact that was really the highlight of his has twenty years of dramatically expanding wages and benefits for the hundreds of thousands of people in the union that was actually over a million at that point so he was a very important person in the Labor movement and very consequential and very good at what he did despite the fact that as you say he was a serial real lawbreaker and had all sorts of Krupp ties and it's pretty remarkable to have gotten a national contract for truck drivers when you consider the fact that you know of truck. The trucking industry was pretty decentralized. You're talking about hundreds of different employers and all all over the country and what's interesting as you tell. The story is that one of the ways he got so connected to the mob was in trying to get all of these different locals unified and negotiating together for National Komo contract and in he was from Detroit but a lot of the locals in the east had some serious mob ties how did that affect his relationship with organized crime. His relationship relationship with organized crime began earlier in Detroit in the nineteen forties but the relationship between Unions in Detroit and the mob there one of arms length than the mob didn't control unions in Detroit but when Hoffa tried to expand his power nationally he met an encountered lots lots of unions that were mob-controlled especially in the east in New York New Jersey and basically and he also had to it was important to get get a national contract to slow down wages in the large cities so he could bring up wages elsewhere so that basically it meant that the unions in the big cities would have to at least least in the short term take a hit so to make a long story short he basically had to accommodate the mob that controlled these unions in order to both win win the presidency of the Union and achieve his goal of winning national contract and for Hoffa. I don't think he blinked I. I don't think he gave it. A second thought. His basic nick view was that he would do business with anyone on any terms which he found advantageous to him and his union and so I think that his deal with the mob in the east to win their support for going slow on wages and giving them support for the presidency for half of that just like bargaining with employers or bargaining or you know giving money to politicians judges that he thought would bring him in advantage. It's interesting is that he was not particularly attracted to mob life mob culture right yeah this is this is something that Chucky taught me that I certainly didn't appreciate from my research. HOFFA's always referred to as mobbed up mob connected and that's certainly true he had had relations with the mafia all over the country but they were always at arm's length and as Chucky said to me he never really understood the Italians he didn't understand the rituals he didn't understand the code of silence he didn't understand how kissed each other when they saw each other and he didn't understand the organization Asian he basically dealt with the person in charge of the place or in the context where he needed help and that was often with the mob and he just picked uh-huh viewed it as a transaction like his other transactions now the most significant transactions he had were with loaning money to to the mob for various projects that they had and that brought off a huge huge amounts of money personally and for the teamsters union and but for him as I say it wasn't like he was hanging out going to dinner with these guys or spending a lot of time with them he was for him. It was just part of doing business. didn't drink right worked around around the clock. He was a workaholic. He didn't drink he with He was very very moralistic. He didn't like it when guys screwed around Indus he would say when some of his people that worked for him or having affairs he was strangely moralistic given that he was such a serial lawbreaker he he spent almost all of his waking hours with the locals hanging out with members of the Union listening to them he gave away his telephone number and he would literally feel collect phone calls day and night from any member of the Union he he was extraordinarily narrowly committed to his union and that's where it's been all the time even when he was on trial and he had many many trials he would go to trial in the morning and then in the afternoon in the hotel where they had a sweet he would he would spaces set up an office on the road and spend the afternoon and evening doing union business as Hoffa was having these battles and building his union career career a year. Stepdad chucky was with him. You didn't know him yet that that that came later but as you came to understand it what was chunkys relationship ship with Hoffa and his role in the Union chucky met Hoffa when he was nine years old he was introduced to him by his mother Sylvia Pagano now and Soviet began. I was actually a very important person in the story because she introduced Tafa to the mob in Detroit and other mobsters around the country when she was a very consequential figure in Hamas relationships with organized crime so chucky new Hoffa and was close to him since he was nine on years old and then when he was eighteen he wanted to get a job in the union and Hof eventually gave him a very low level job as an organizer as business agent but then when Hoffa became president of the Union in Nineteen fifty seven when Chucky was just twenty three years old he asked Chucky Chucky to basically be a special assistant and from that point on from nineteen fifty seven until Hoffa went to prison in Nineteen seventy-one. CECCHI was basically the always at Hoffa's side. He was basically I'm in fact totem seems like it's not a very attractive where but that's basically what he was. He took care care of anything and everything. HOFFA needed from meals to organizing meetings to collecting intelligence. He was also a bodyguard he would tiniest high in the morning because off a never was very good at tying tie. He was basically his round around the clock assistant but it was more than just that they were. They were extremely extremely close in everyone believed because they were so close and because Hoffa was always covering for truckee or showing affection to chucky that he'd usually didn't shut others. Everyone assumed and it was widely rumored. That Hoffa was actually his real father. You don't think that's the case I spent a lot of time digging and I do not believe that's the case. I think the reason people believe that is because Hoffa was very very close to chuck his mother Sylvia and because he had served such showed such affection to Chucky but no. I don't believe that's the case I mean if for no other reason than that at the time chucky was born in the year two before there's no reason to think that Jackie's mother and Hoffa were in the same town or near one another but also cecchi insists that it wasn't true and I believe he would do almost anything for Jimmy Hoffa wooder order a couple of the wilder moments in in his service of of Demi off. He said to me many times that he would do anything for Jimmy Hoffa some of the stories I recount in the book. are one of the funniest ones I guess it's funny is the time when Hoffa was complaining about the editor of the Detroit news who was incessantly excessively pounding Hoffa and his corruption in the like in a way that Hoffa thought was unfair and he told Chucky to take care of it and do whatever he needed to get the gadget to tone it down so chucky got the brilliant idea of going to the Wayne County morgue where he purchased a cadaver or purchased. I should say the head cadaver. Put it in a box wrapped up the box and put a note in he didn't tell me what the note said and send it to Martin. Hayden who is the editor of the Detroit. News is to us his reaction was. We don't know what his reaction was. I'm and I actually was able to confirm the story through a variety of sources um I'm but I wasn't Hayden's no longer with us and I wasn't able to figure out what his reaction was. So Hamas big enemy for a long long time was Bobby Kennedy who I went after Hoffa and the teamsters as an investigator for a Senate Committee and there was clearly deep personal title and animosity between these two men he then after his brother. Jack Kennedy was elected President Bobby Kennedy became the Attorney General and he he kept going after after Hoffa seeking criminal convictions and some eventually secured Kennedy was as attorney general very aggressive with surveillance of Hoffa and others was it legal surveillance so there was a lot of illegal surveillance going on during Bobby Kennedy's tenure as attorney general and end large swath of it were clearly illegal the the bugging was going on against organized crime at the time was flew in the face of clear Supreme Court directives the that it wasn't allowed you weren't allowed to bug a private abode through a break in which is what the FBI was doing. Kennedy was also and his department were also super aggressive surveilling Hoffa personally sometimes through wiretaps and bugs Hoffa was never able to prove Kennedy. acted illegally against him on. There's some evidence in the in the book that I was able to collect that shows does it maybe there was some illegal surveillance against Hoffa but more generally in addition to the legal surveillance it was all around Hoffa and through which the Department of Justice and the FBI. We're learning a lot about HOFFA including about his trials. Kennedy just pushed the envelope in terms of prosecutorial discretion and throwing all of his resources against Hoffa in being super super aggressive in using every trick in the book in the way that he talked about the case in public his brother at the first debate in against Nixon pledged that he became president he and his brother. We're going to put off in jail so there were a lot of ways that he crossed the line surveillance being one of them. We're listening to the the interview fresh. Air's Dave Davies recorded with Jack Goldsmith author of the new book in Hoffa's shadow a stepfather disappearance in Detroit and my search for the truth breath after a break go smith talk about his efforts to get to the bottom of his stepfather's involvement in the Hoffa case and what happened when he talked to the F. B. I. Agents who worked on the investigation. I'm Terry Gross and this is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message come from Adt in abt medical alert system system can give you confidence at home and miles away with wireless two way communication GPS location services fall detection and compassionate care from Adt Adt. What do you want to protect your own independence and freedom. Maybe it's your mom or dad whatever it is. Nobody has more ways to help. Keep you safe than the health professionals she knows at Adt Visit Adt dot com slash health to learn more. Let's get back to the interview fresh. Air's Dave Davies recorded with Jack Goldsmith. Both he's a Harvard law professor and was a top government lawyer in the George W Bush administration but his new book in office shadow is about his stepfather Chuck O'Brien Brian who was a close associate of the tough mob connected Labour leader Jimmy Hoffa who disappeared and was presumed murdered in nineteen seventy five O'Brien as a character in the new Martin Scorsese film the Irishman. He's played by Jesse plummets. Jimmy Hoffa is portrayed by Al Pacino Chuck O'Brien came came into Goldsmith's life just weeks before Hoffa vanished when O'Brien married Goldsmith mother he would soon be named by the FBI as a suspect and Hoffa's this disappearance so all of this remarkable stuff about Hoffa's career his battles with Kennedy has self-enrichment his ties with the law his eventual conviction and imprisonment happens before so you get to know your stepfather chucky he comes into your life right around the time that Hoffa disappears nineteen seventy five and you find him a loving and devoted father for many years years after that in fact you change your name from Jack Goldsmith to Jack O'Brien taking your Stepdad's name but then your attitude attitude towards him changes. Tell us why what happened. What happened so what happened was? I went to college and when I went to college is a lot of things started changing. I I started to think about my future in my life in a way that I really hadn't before I got to college. I wasn't a terribly serious high school student and I hadn't really focused on my life beyond high school. When I was in high school in College I began for the first time to read some of the new books about Hoffa disappearance and these new books painted chucky and Uncle Tony like Loni uncle Tony Province Zano and an objectively unflattering lights and so the the kind of myth that checking head perpetuated when I was a teenager in that are bought completely by the time I got to college. I started added to see that there was a quite different reality behind that also in college. I started to become embarrassed by Chucky. I used to revel in his Labor identity entity in the union identity. I used to revel in or at least enjoy his rough language and his his indifference a different status his his nickname for me was even in high school but especially in college the educated idiot which was kind of indicative of how he thought about the education he'd. He didn't think much of Education He. He got his education in the streets. Any thought book learning was was worthless I used to I became to have a different attitude about that. one afternoon in my sophomore year my car was repossessed by very thuggish looking repo man in a way a car that chucky had given me and he had not been able to make the payments on it and the car was taken away from me in a very embarrassing and threatening way and that kind of scared me and I started to think maybe my cessation chucky will have bad impact or a dangerous impact on my life and then finally I started thinking in in college but especially in law school all about my career and I decided in college that I wanted to be a lawyer and I started to think that maybe wouldn't be such a great thing to be a lawyer and especially if I want work in the government which had a dim ambition to do at the time it wouldn't be so great to be associated with the leading suspect in the disappearance and his organized crime friends right so you actually get your name changed back to Jack Goldsmith and you write your step data letter. Would you tell them. How did he respond the week. After graduation he came to my graduation and I as I recall I was a bit distant at my graduation and towards him a week after graduation. I was in Memphis Tennessee where I was born. I was working there for the summer and I decided the week after graduation something I've been thinking about for the last year or so that I was going to change my name at which at the time was O'Brien since he adopted me back to Goldsmith which was my the name of the job was born since I was born in Memphis and had done the name change there. It was easy for me to do there so on father's Day in nineteen eighty I wrote him a letter kind of strangely upbeat letter wishing him fathers happy father's Day telling him how much I loved him and telling him that the name change which I told him about in a phone call a week earlier was no big deal. I still loved him but that I just wanted to have my own name and I tried to be upbeat about it. it was a pretty unconvincing letter to read it today. He responded by sending me an extraordinary eight or nine page letter written on the stationary of the International Brotherhood of teamsters handwritten in his kind of looping cursive handwriting and it was something that he later told me he spent a week on all round the clock. He talked a lot the people about it he practiced his handwriting wouldn't make spelling mistakes and it was just an extraordinary letter about how much he loved me and how her he he wasn't what I did. And how much did it hurt my family my my little brothers who still O'Brien my mother but it was also a letter that it said you have to decide for yourself sign. You're an adult and you have to make decisions for yourself and I can accept this. It's going to hurt me a lot but I accept it and I love you very very much. That's a short summary of what was really an extraordinary letter but that's basically what it said and then you you really barely had any contact with him for like close to twenty years right so that was in one thousand nine hundred eighty by the time. I got to law school in eighty six. I basically decided that I wasn't GonNa talk to him anymore. And I basically cut him out of my life and I it was kind of brutal about it. and we didn't speak again. We barely spoke again. I didn't see him for a couple of decades. you graduated from Yale Law School and and and you ended up having a very eventful turn as the head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel in the George W Bush administration when you encountered the enhanced interrogation techniques that were being used in the wake of nine eleven as well as the surveillance of American citizens and wrote legal memoranda undermining the justifications for that which lead to some serious confrontations nations in the government. You wrote a whole book about this. It's been written about a fair amount you left after I guess nine months but I bring it up because I wonder if mm-hmm you're looking at you know the unconstrained power of government had something to do with reconsidering your relationship with chuck it did in a any kind of surprising moment and then a reflection on that moment or during my time in government when I was working on I'm trying to understand the warrantless wiretapping program that had been in place since two thousand one this was in the fall of two thousand three or the late fall two thousand three in the middle of working on that case on about warrantless wiretapping. I came across an important Supreme Court opinion that had a citation in it to O'Brien versus United United States and I thought that strange and it was in the mid nineteen sixties. I knew that was the time when Chucky was having some troubles with the government in connection with Hoffa so I looked up the case and it was actually a case about my stepfather chucky and it was actually a case where the government had illegally surveilled in a way that overheard conversations the lawyer and the Supreme Court had basically invalidated the conviction and ordered retrial so this was an extraordinary moment for me `but berth for lots of reasons when I was a teenager chucky always kind of gone on in his not really illegally informed but insistent way that the government always cut corners corners. He called it back up. The government always was able to break the law in secret when they were going after people in public for breaking the law and he'd always said that he had a famous Supreme Court case and that the government in had surveilled him illegally and I really didn't believe any of it and I didn't know about this case in law school and I didn't believe any of that stuff that he had said and here I was in the Justice Department working on a program that was could be described as legal cutter corner cutting to put it nicely involving surveillance program and seeing smart lawyers who had worked on this case who had made what I viewed as opportunistic interpretations to help support an intelligence Pittsburgh with the president to meet the enemy within so to speak and in some sense exactly what he had said to me when I was a teenager turned out to be true and I was in the Justice Department so in a different context of course so that was a moment certainly didn't flip on a dime right there and say okay. I forgive chucky. I was wrong about everything but that was the moment in which I started to rethink him and me and my what I'd done to him and May and I started rethink that maybe I wasn't so smart and I wasn't isn't so justified in my moral superiority to him when I was younger man and in my really poor treatment of him the during my young adult wow so you left the Justice Department in mid two thousand four and this would have been nearly thirty years after Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance nearly thirty years after Chucky was identified publicly is the guy who probably drove Hoffa to his death. how widely widely known and widely shared and celebrated was his alleged role in this. I mean the Reef Hollywood films with him as a character right it was it's not just it. It's assumed truth everywhere you look there are dozen books who have placed. Chucky in the car picking up Hoffa. There are a couple of movies. There's the Jack Nicholson Movie Hoffa. I think that was in the eighties. there are thousands upon thousands of stories that have placed he's talking in the car. The reason that the public believes and has believe since nineteen seventy five that he was the person who actually picked up profit drove him to his death is because that was the early. FBI Theory it was mentioned in an early FBI report that was leaked to the press and that early report from nineteen seventy six has basically been assumed assumed truth about the case ever since then and it certainly was in two thousand four and frankly it is today if you if you will O'Brien and Hoffa you will find thousands of story story saying he drove Pompidou's death right and there's a new Martin Scorsese film coming out the Irishman and Chuck Isa character played by Jesse Plans Chucky is the character played by Jesse Clemens. I haven't seen the film obviously but the book upon which it is based like every book that's been written about. This basically in every story has chucky in the carpet NAPA NAPA. We're speaking with Jack Goldsmith. His new memoir is in Hoffa's shadow a stepfather a disappearance in Detroit and my search for the truth. We'll talk more after a short break. This is fresh air. This message comes from NPR sponsor Panera bread. Ask Yourself. One was the last time you had a meal that was fresh and filling filling. PINERA's new warm grain bowls are full of flavorful ingredients like hardy keen wa Spicy Salsa Verde and creamy avocado full of flavors textures and colors full all of good so you'll be full of good to try a new bar or Mediterranean warm grain bowl warm grain bowls full of good now available for delivery Panera food as is it should be. I think it's time for a big change all right. What does that mean. I think it's time to make the NPR politics podcast a daily podcast. Well we do have more than ample news news you and I are on the campaign trail like nonstop and now there's an impeachment inquiry into president trump so starting this week the NPR politics podcast will be in your feed every every weekday to keep you up to date ahead of the twenty twenty elections subscribe wherever you get your podcast the NPR politics podcast now five days a week this is fresh air and we're speaking king with Jack Goldsmith. He headed the office of Legal Counsel in the George W Bush administration for time where he was involved in critical battles over the legality of interrogation techniques warrantless surveillance of American citizens his new memoir focuses on a very different story his stepfather. Chuck O'Brien's close connection to Labour leader Jimmy Hoffa offer and the suspicion many held for years that O'Brien was connected to Hamas nineteen seventy-five disappearance Jag. Goldsmith's book is called in Hoffa's chateau auto you eventually decide. You're going to try and get to the bottom of at least chunkys role well first of all. How did you reconcile reconciled with him. What was that look so it happened at Christmas of two thousand four about six months after government and my wife Hyphen my two very young sons and I went down there to see my mother for Christmas for the last twenty years I refused visit my mom with one exception exception when Chucky was there because I just didn't want to even be seen with him but I decided this time for a bunch of reasons that it would be fine if he were there. He was actually quite sick. He had had heart surgery he had died of diabetes and my mom basically said I can't ask him to leave. If you WANNA come down here he's going to be here. In any event. I have been thinking being in the months before that I had terribly wrong tim earlier when I had renounced him in basically cut him out of my life and I had come to realize what extraordinary pain and I had caused him in large part because a my own children I really appreciate the time when I was twenty one when I sent him but I basically basically changed my name and renounced him. I had just had no conception of how painful that could even though my mom had told me how bad it was and it was really having my own children was also reflecting on how could have moralistic and writes. I was thinking he was a bad person and I was a good person. I came to think that it was is much more complicated than that especially after I had been knee deep in some problematic activities in the government a whole bunch of things led me to change my mind and want to apologize to him and Bay but it happened one night very simply we were when I got down there. I was nice to him for the first time in twenty five years. He responded as if nothing ever happened. We had a great couple of days together. We Cook Together. We shop together. He was to care my baby children and then one night when we were watching Seinfeld in a commercial. I just turned to him and I said to him. I'm so very sorry sorry for what I did for you. For the last twenty years I was wrong and I hope you'll forgive me and let me come back into your life and he looked at me with his puzzled expression and he started crying and he basically said you don't need to apologize. I understand why you did what you did and that was basically it and we that was it we from that moment on we. He never brought it up again. We talked about it sometimes the decade later but never in any in any way that think caused him to bring up those twenty years in a bad way and after that we grew very very close through conversation and travelled together in the like still painful to think about that it's every time I think about what I did to him and went the paint. He went through. It's very painful. Yes you decide you're. I'M GONNA try and get to the bottom of Chunkys at least chunkys role in the Hoffa case and you know your lawyer. You're you're. You're skilled investigator. What did you do. What did you find so I decided after years of talking to him. After we reconciled just just having you know casual conversations hoffa would come up the disappearance would come up and I kind of became convinced that he didn't do it and the the main reason I became convinced was because of the way he revered Hoffa and spoke about Hoffa and also because the circumstances in which he was alleged to have done it but he didn't didn't add up to me so what did I do. did everything I could. I basically talked to every FBI investigator that ever worked the case starting with the original four FBI investigators who are on the case to in Detroit one in New Jersey one in New York. I spent a dozen sessions with them. Their extraordinary men and we actually actually improbably in probably became friends over the course of our mutual investigation into figuring out what happened what actually happened in the disappearance I read boxes and boxes of government documents some of which are publicly available redacted a lot of which I got my hands on through various sources that have never been revealed and talked about before I spoke to the FBI investigator who was on the case for fifteen years for the longest and I followed up leads that suggested that the FBI starting in the nineties started to think chucky perhaps wasn't involved so I followed that lead up and it turned out when when I done that I learned more about why the F. B. I thought that Chucky may be had not done it. In Indiana concluded that he had not done it and they had reason to think someone else did so at least a a whole bunch of evidence together I figured out the holes in the circumstantial case against him and I came up with a whole bunch of reasons why I didn't think he was able to dumb what he what he was alleged to have done that day and on July thirtieth nineteen seventy five and finally I think the the clenching piece of evidence if you WanNa call all of that is the FBI itself and several agents and US attorneys assisting attorneys that I talked to were completely commence. He was innocent indeed. They were on the verge of exonerating him. Jack Goldsmith new book is called in Hoffa's shadow. We'll continue our conversation in just a moment. This is fresh air support for fresh air and the following message passage come from rocket mortgage by quicken loans. Imagine how it feels to have an award winning team of mortgage experts make the home buying process smoother for you with a history history of industry leading online lending technology rocket mortgage is changing the game visit rocket mortgage dot com slash fresh air equal housing lender licensed assistant all fifty states. NMLS CONSUMERACCESS DOT ORG number thirty thirty rocket mortgage by quicken loans push-button get mortgage support also so comes from capital one capital one wants to build a better bank one that feels an axe nothing like a typical bank so they're reimagining banking they offer a great rate savings rate and accounts with no fees or minimums that can be opened from anywhere in five minutes. That's banking reimagined capital one. What's in your Wallet Capital Capital. One in a year now convinced and many others that that Chucky was not complicit in office disappearance but you I always believed that he probably does know things about what happened. what did you get him to tell you. So one of the themes of the book is chucky struggles Duggal with Omerta. an America is the code of silence that is one of the defining commitments in the Italian syndicate and Chucky was not a member of the mafia he was half Sicilian and half Irish therefore he couldn't be a member but he always completely imbibed Sicilian values as he put it any completely adhered to America and he did so because his mother and Uncle Tony Jack Loney and all all the people on the mafia side of his life had not convinced him. This is just the way of the world so this was very important for him not to tell things. He wasn't supposed to talk about on the other hand. He knew that he needed to be truthful with me and then he knew that I wanted to write a credible book so he ended up telling me quite a lot about a lot of things but not everything he didn't tell me. I'm convinced everything he knew but he did. Tell me quite a lot about especially the run up to the disappearance. It's and I think the basic conspiracy the disappearance and he told me enough certainly to convince me of what the horrible situation he faced after the disappearance in between the government Kaha for family and the mob he was an impossible position there and enough to convince me that he in fact didn't pick up off of that day right. How do you regard his insistence instance ongoing to his grave with secrets well. I don't know how many secrets he's taking to his grave but he certainly taking some secrets to his grave and I'm of two minds about it mostly. I certainly didn't try to didn't push him to tell me things he didn't WanNa. Tell me and we had this very complicated relationship over years and years of talking where he was trying his best to tell me things and sometimes indirectly pointing things and I was asking question after question interrogating him but I was always not wanting to go too far because I didn't want him to cross any lines is he wasn't supposed to cross to replace this dance for years that we were both aware of and for most of the time especially starting out I thought that his commitment to America was self serving and probably unprincipled and I didn't really understand it but I have to say by the end and I I did come to understand it at least in this sense for Chucky. It was the really in some ways. The most important thing is life. It was the principal of honor that that he grew up with and that he always adhered to and frankly was the thing he held onto for forty five years after the disappearance when he could've sat other things things to to sort of exonerate himself and didn't do you think that the Hoffa case will ever be solved. I'm not sure it will ever be solved in the sense that we will find Hoffa's body or remains or that will know exactly what happened in the parking lot in outside aside. The Marcus Red Fox on July thirtieth nineteen seventy five what happened there the FBI currently has what it thinks is a new theory of the case if it believes it believes that Hoffa was picked up by veto Jack Alani who was the brother of Anthony Jacqueline and it believes it knows who the murderer you're is. What's the brother of your uncle. Tony when you wouldn't Speedo Jack Lonnie otherwise known as billy was the brother of Tony. I never met veto and it believes it knows who the killer was. He was someone who was a low level. organized crime figure in the seventies who rose to pretty significant prominence in the family lane who died earlier this year. I don't name the person in the book because I don't know what the basis of the. FBI's judgment is told me. Several people told me that they have surveillance evidence and informed evidence that makes it think that this is what actually happened to Hoffer at least who is involved. I it beyond that I don't know and I don't think the FBI has a clenching case. I think they have basically information about who they did it but not how and and that kind of the irony is that in broader sense it was sort of clear from the beginning that Hoffa wa- was engaged in a course of conduct trying to return to the presidency of the teamsters teamsters in attacking the then president Frank Fitzsimmons and his mob ties and was making enemies. Yes he and he brought this on himself self quite literally and in the book. I give a lot of new detail about the run up to the disappearance. The disappearance based on everything we know and everything reporting the book was is a perfectly predictable consequence of Hamas behavior. He was basically threatening to reveal how the mob and infiltrated the teamsters and he was threatening that in a credible way and that's basically why he was killed House chucky now. He's he's not in great shape. He has a bunch of medical problems and he goes up and down he still with us but he's not in great shape as he has he seen and read the book he has read the book yet. Some what did he think well. I showed him the book before I decide side to publish it. I originally was going to wait until after he passed away to publish it because I was afraid there will be some things in there that he wouldn't like and that even with dishonor him mm and at the same time he really wanted me to publish it before the Scorsese movie came out because he wanted the world to know that he in fact did not kill Jimmy. Living offers did not drive him to his death so I decided that I was going to allow him to make them and read the manuscript and decide whether I publish it or not. I was going to abide by his wishes. I saw him reading parts of the book. I'm wince a few times. He asked me to take out two or three very small things just out of respect for various people nothing material to the book so that's what I knew before. The book was published. He's read at sense then. I know he's right now. Since it's been published he's got a variety of emotions about different different emotions at different times and he told me he was sorry for being such a pain in the ass by not telling me things we'll jekyll Smith. Thanks so much for speaking with us. Thank you very much Jack. Goldsmith spoke with fresh air's. Dave Davies Goldsmiths new book is called in Hoffa's shadow auto a stepfather a disappearance in Detroit and my search for the truth tomorrow on fresh air my guest will be Conan O'Brien in addition to his tbs late night show. He has a podcast which is about to start. It's second season. We'll talk about making changes his career trying new things and how much of his life he's been driven by Zayed's. I hope you'll join US fresh fresh. Air's executive producer is Danny Miller our interviews and reviews produced an edited by Amy Salad Phyllis Myers Sam Berger Lauren crandall and Maribel Donato Theresa Recent Madden Moods Eighty Challenor Seth Kelly Andro Wolfram. I'm Terry Gross and.

Jimmy Hoffa Chucky Chucky Teamsters Union Detroit Power Goldsmith FBI president Martin Scorsese Union Hamas Jack Goldsmith George W Bush administration Chuck O'Brien Jack O'Brien United States Martin Hayden Detroit News Uncle Tony American labor movement Chuckie O'Brien
Iowa Caucus Joke; Pete Buttigieg Declares Victory; State of the Union Tonight; A Little Too Much Bloomberg Talk; Mute Gives His Super Bowl Recap; Should Patrick Mahomes have won MVP?; No New Tom Brady News

The Gerry Callahan Podcast

1:21:21 hr | 1 year ago

Iowa Caucus Joke; Pete Buttigieg Declares Victory; State of the Union Tonight; A Little Too Much Bloomberg Talk; Mute Gives His Super Bowl Recap; Should Patrick Mahomes have won MVP?; No New Tom Brady News

"I finally got an answer the big winner in iowa the iowa caucuses last night we got it yes sir as usual the winners donald j trump would ninety six point eight percent of the vote everyone else those those are the losers everybody else i don't care what mayor pizzas when i think william weld finished third in the republican looking caucus he might have finished hi liz how about that we got all the latest we break it down and analyze it from iowa and we have moving truck day in in boston we have moving truck day there's one moving truck that people care about and one they don't the one leaving tom brady's mansion everyone wants the details on that nobody nobody cares that the red sox truck is head and self nobody cares anymore we got sad news on rush limbaugh and we got scott mutant with the latest tom brady rumors and a kind of a discouraging endorsement borough president from scott mutant from the mute man all that on the callahan hint podcasts presented by shake concrete allied paving and the legacy club boston skis gerry callahan hint podcast i still wanna get the name right karen callahan good columnist should write more details jerry i don't think we make our trade based on whether gerry callahan approves of our trade gerry callahan and two and a half hours after they started they still have not reported anything and yet here in iowa incredible night incredible results such phenomenal energy here we are headed to new hampshire victorious and there is no way this is according to plan here's gerry callahan finally we have the results sir from iowa advocacy cox results are finally in i'm not sure what time people are listening to this but i'm pretty sure it's breaking news the winner in a surprise is a slight upset hillary clinton is the winner finished second the houston astros they finished second hunter biden finished third and bringing up the rear mike lava ninety i thought your top four i thought john kerry made it in that he's he's really disappointed he's onto new hampshire he's like michael bloomberg wasn't competing in iowa i'm telling you a donald trump as i've said many times i like what he does like what he says i don't like everything he tweets but i will say this he is he's still he did something right in a previous life because is everything is bright he's the luckiest man he's he's things just break right for him there's no way what happened last night could have worked out better for him there's there's chaos in iowa whoever is been declared the winner doesn't matter everyone else is going to say they want they're going to blame the the machines reporting the app and trump is it's gonna take to the podium tonight for the state of the union and he's going to declare victory yeah it's i'm interested to see because the the funniest thing i find about this it's like you think donald trump's in is evil layer like just putting like rubbing his like what could what could i do today day to stir up controversy and sometimes he doesn't even have to intentionally do anything and it just falls into his lap i mean this is one of those we did about it yes he just tweeted i just re tweeted he declared victory of course and let's be honest he's he's not wrong i have the actual iwa caucus casse results but he tweeted last night big win for us in iowa tonight stay and that's true i mean he won i got the results right here this is no lie donald trump ninety six point eight of a percent of the votes joe walsh most famous for being the eagles crazy man and rocky mountain high he finished with one point three percent and pulling up the rear bill weld one point that amazes mid for him bill weld got one point three percents with the results walls could a total of three hundred sixty votes well three hundred fifty three there are three hundred fifty the three islands who went to their neighborhood caucus and voted for bill weld i didn't even know i didn't know he was a republican i thought he was offended i didn't even know he was in the mix i think that's kind of really right after a certain part once you're less than a certain percentage you have to i have not seen him on like any talk shows i haven't seen any rallies but three hundred people through the vote against donald trump clearly sure it's not for bill weld it was trump this morning when he got the news who's that chaos at the caucus say that caucus chaos there is key caucus at the ca- there's chaos at the caucus in iowa and they don't know who won mayor pete is declaring victory love it onto new hampshire may be we're making history which he's not even letting go to review just literally just getting it out of here right right hold on hold on we got to kick the extra point he's out of their here in iowa incredible night incredible assault phenomenal energy here we are headed to new hampshire victorious and now we gotta build for the next phase so that's all well and good you you wanna sound confident you want to steal victory but what happens if they announce you didn't win that sound bite lasts forever you sound like a full right i don't know i mean there's there's been some other compound bites the howard dean one is my favorite sound bite and that's the one that in he won that hurt more at this you can at least claim that that you blame it on the app or blame it on the people counting it or blaming on allison blaming learn learn last night after falling politics for like forty five five years i learned what a caucus is sort of you know had the whole explanation literally have to stand on one side of the room to support your guy and if your guy doesn't get fifteen percent that means he's not viable you have to go to another side of the road right MSNBC last night no watch i watched a little CNN then when when fox was commercial i don't ever go to MSNBC it's too far away CNN's only one click above fox click once i'll do it tonight maybe because i do it on special occasions to see in a chris to see head exploded to see rachel maddow in the state of the union how that's going to be picked apart and and gone after a by both sides on this always always entertaining to see how someone someone could interpret one-sentence one way and another one another way and the the the whole pomp and circumstance of the standing and cloudy literally bores me to tears and it's too bad we'd like to see raw trump we wanna see unfiltered trump and he's gonna stick to the script which is the smart thing to do yes i don't think he ad libs is it all instead of the unions he should to it's i'm interested to see i always enjoy i've all the thing i have enjoyed when i do watch the bits and pieces of it is watching watching the speaker of the house behind behind the president and watching the vice president behind that's always entertaining to see the facial expressions and the the mood of the the entire hire parties involved it's always very entertaining you'll be able to see like nazis pelosi's teeth fall out that's that's always entertaining and then they'll they'll show trump say something great eight about america at america's winning america's wonderful and they'll show liz warrants sitting on our hands actually she won't she go to this they don't have to go do they had to go last week for the trial but i think there usually everyone's present for afternoon thought the supreme court's there yes they we're that they're they're usually that they weren't there for obama they protested in protests that didn't show up for one of obama's state of the unions i think you're right the probably there and then they straight up to new hampshire how much time if someone like lisburn bernie sanders actually spent doing their job liz worn linden new hampshire five o'clock this morning and she's not going you mean representing presenting their the people of their their districts doesn't seem that much when they're running for other offices and that's how valid point that a lot of people make when they see them coming to the to these is local to the local rallies into two local town hall meetings you're like you spend two hundred sixty days away from your your jurisdiction addiction your your town that you represent or your you know where your county and you're not around like what are you doing she anywhere they should quit you should quit if you want to run for president symbols does that should be you should not be able to do both jobs you can't do bulldoze running for presidency fulltime job for like two years right and then you're also dealing money she's also had to be in the the the impeachment hearings do so what else required right here's trump this morning after we get the news he said the democratic caucus is an unmitigated disaster is all you know yet helped with this he spelled all those words correctly nothing just like they ran the country remember the five billion dollar obamacare website that should have cost two percent of that the only person that can claim a very big victory in iowa last night is is trump numero puts in quotation even newt gingrich was out with a with a with a tweet saying you know the democrats can't run a caucus yes they can't run an impeachment hearing how do you expect them to run healthcare and that's you know that's an issue i'm sure with a lot of people are having that is you talk about wanting to fix all these other things but there always seems to be some sort of problem or disaster that comes about if you're sick of this already news for you it's going to get worse much much worse i new hampshire's in how many days a week right yeah this is just one week there's all batting practice is like you know the city that hosts the super bowl not necessarily miami but like a jacksonville or minnesota minneapolis and then everyone leaves and just barren and all these things these temporary stores and all these are all just empty and they're like tumbleweeds roll that's what i let's dubuque and des moines or like now because everybody all the media and all the candidates and all their support their on their wedding hampshire which means we here in boston just kind of get relentlessly bombarded with commercials with the political ads that's we might even get a kid to right dave we'll we'll make the push workout turtle tulsi tight we'll tell i'm talking to see people doing a town hall meetings up in portsmouth at restaurant eating ops roles pretending the like sex sleep all these relating to the people of new hampshire it's and it's all for not because there's a pole this a couple of polls globe has one with the like hillary backed by hillary same thing elizabeth warren's trailing bernie by ten point six points there's another poll where he's up twenty bernie is going to win new hampshire in a landslide which is frightening for the republic the idea that people people otherwise intelligent reasonable rational a democrats are going to go out there and vote for a seventy eight year old communists who is promising basing to destroy the economy your financial guy mute your you fall the markets yes the economy's pretty good right now right people are working people or are earning they're the they're buying the best consuming at all that comes to a screeching halt if this lunatic gets in the white white house and yet people not i mean some people are like alex roemer AFC they're idiots but other people have jobs and lives and they're going i saw saw them last night and on the coverage in in iowa and they're saying you know we need bernie bernie because what because the world is going to end because people don't have healthcare kiro some made up nonsense and they want to destroy the US economy right and and that's the thing that you look at it's like it's great to have all these things given into you by the government but at some point the bill comes in someone's got to pay the bill and the front you know while they just wanna tax wealthy people and what they don't the the thing that doesn't work in that and when you're taxing the extremely wealthy people they they're wealthy for a reason and they have very good tax attorneys that help to avoid them to pay those those taxes because there's capital gains and there's we can go to a whole blabbering of stuff to talk about this but those people don't end up paying the majority of those taxes just because someone's a billionaire and you want to throw it a fifty five percent tax on them they're not going to pay even as they did not going to happen and even if they did if you took all the wealth from every billionaire it's not enough to pay for the green new deal somebody forget one of the network anchors asked bernie the other day he was laying out his plan to give everything to everyone and they said how do you what will this cost and he said i don't know he has no idea it just sounds good and the only people who are really passionately supporting him our young people are for like thirty five and under it's remarkable if you look at polls people even democrats even hard core left wing progressives if you look at he's leading by a wide margie's sixty something percent for people under thirty five over sixty he's in single digits these can like six percent because people that age have lived through a lot they know what's socialism is they know it doesn't work and they think he even he even they know his dangerous interest but young people people like rimmer at AO see an idiot college students who in a running around with antiques or a blocking blocking traffic to protect the protest climate change these people who don't have a brain cell between them they're all in i think the biggest thing that you're noticing jason is what trump did to the republican party is what is what birdies try i think you're finding it's not necessarily the person it's the distant people people are disenfranchised with your absolutely no it's the people that are disenfranchised with what the democratic party has not done for them and now you can try it was it's the same thing for the republicans and that's why trump was able to beat the establishment this is this is more statement against the establishment and the carries and the biden's of the world and that's why what you see in the caucus when like like you say people have to stand in the other room the people that want to vote for bernie like w we'll go stand over there in the left and they start to move that way and they start moving to the other away and they actually get into the biden quarter i'm not voting for biden but that's that's the way they're this is the established way of trying to hold on to their party passion matters you know enthusiasm matters and he's got it because of all these young crazy loaded th you know these types he's reamer types he's got them but you're right it is a protest vote and i have a theory that bernie does even better if people think he can't win it's kind of this paradox of it a lot of democrats say i need we need somebody anybody who can beat trump that was what they want right they want and and that's why this this meagre support for biden they think they saw pulse as biden can beat him buttons get support everyone's kind of fading that's i mean on bides kind of fading thing everyone's kind of given up on biden so they're saying none of these people can beat trump buddha judge warren can't beat trump you know what screw them all i'm going to vote for the commie i'm gonna make my a protest vote 'cause it's going to send a message to not just the democrat establishment but to the whole system that we're we're sick of it and we're gonna go with the communist if you don't give us a better candidate field sucks and it does that favors bernie yeah and the primaries always always tend to go towards the extreme right bold decides of the more extreme no but when when you look at it and you and you see this i think it all comes back to as we talked the last time i was on is the information that are that's accessible to people now and when you see the the established democratic party and you see the the financial donors owners that are going in that give them the money and they see the the hillary clinton the world tour hillary clinton took all this money in from wall street and took all these speaking engagements money and took all all these contributions from all these high powerful uber rich people and then all of a sudden how are you representing their wants ryan's candidate wall street hypocrisy and that's why they're going to bernie and because they actually they're standing by it and you actually give them credit for it because there are at least standing behind for what they do now i don't i don't think it's logical but hey at least they're standing behind what they believe instead of just voting for hillary clinton was saying that she she supported these people but then she's he's taking five hundred thousand dollars a speaking engagements at goldman goldman sachs or other big high-powered if i don't like her nobody does you don't like warrants she's not likeable biden biden is feeble old man like he can't send screw them all i'm i'm gonna protest this one i mean this is a statement and they're making it and he's gonna gonna win or i should maybe he wins the nomination and gets trounced but trump any will and they don't care they're like so what i would have my guy lose than have liz rarin or joe biden or pete buddha judge what does that what statement does that send to the establishment if you'd known many biden or warn wall when it goes back to your thoughts is that there's just there's not a really good candidate that has stood out but at least they're saying well at least my vote is being heard at least i'm making a statement by saying that i'm going to support report i'm not gonna fall for this anymore maybe this will wake up my party and to an to an extent that's what donald trump did this to the republican party because look at the primaries last time with donald trump like everyone had thought he had no chance of winning you know it was it was all these other guys that were more polly yeah all these are the career politicians but people just got sick and tired of being like i'm sick as you standing on stage and telling me something that you're never going to do why not give it to this i burn is that guy that for them in my in a weird away that's my theory that trump has helped bernie they're saying he's trump you know he's our protest vote trump was elected for one reason above all others to disrupt us he's degraded disruptor he went to washington he said things no one everyone else was afraid to say did things people are afraid to do he shook up the establishment the only one who could do that on the democrat side is burnt now it's frightening for people like you who have jobs and family worked for eleven i mean it's great if you're just a freeloader you know one of these anti fa bums you you're okay with it but you everyone else everyone knows that binds just everyone's watched the the hunter bud thing unfold hold they know what kind of crook biden is they know what kind of phony warrener's i mart joe rogan for his endorsement of bernie sanders because it was kind of shallow and stupid stupid but it is a lot of the shallow stupid supporters think they think he's real genuine i mean he's a genuine communist but if they would would they they give you points for authenticity of any set about right he's true to himself none of these other people god knows liz liz warns the funniest human being an joe biden as we've learned as got more side hustles than dave colonnade he's a crook we've learned that right so you gotta on one one guy one guy who's the real deal and it's like i said this when joe rogan said it i like him he's consistent houston i said you know fidel castro was consistent that's true that is true but that's but this is this is for the other people that can't support port what the donald trump policy and his his authenticity into it when he said he's coming to lower taxes i'm going to force you know foreign policy is going to be i want other other countries to start chipping in that we're like sick of footing the bills i'm sick of our trade deals with with china and how we're getting screwed on all these other things so the people that were were able to look kind of passed as you know other eccentric eccentricities or whatever the word i'm looking for everything people are sick and tired heard of listening to other politicians say they were going to do stuff but eventually cave to the middle because what what happened before trump is i kind of think there was one one party that was all lumped into the middle because you look at like the bush the bush era and then you look at even the clinton and obama you had the vomit did have some of extreme extreme to the left but everyone was kind of in that middle if if you look at the deep state or you look at the right point tees they're all the not the same but many of the same their career ear hacks washington insiders right a lot of compromise a lot there's blood you know maybe some maybe it scares some people that's what santa's this is presents to people that new blood that scares people i think the difference is trump loves this country trump's you know doing what's best best for this country bernie likes burning if you look at his history and this will kill roemer when we do this if he's the nominee he said more good things about the soviet union and cuba that has about the united states of america when they start digging he's never been vetted because he's a extreme you know nutjob they just leave him over there they let them play with his belly button lint in the corner and they don't you know bother looking into him when they do i'm i said this three yesterday there's a video of him drunk and shirtless in the soviet union singing songs with a bunch of fellow travelers sitting there singing this land is our land wow ow in when that when trump gets a hold of jewel tough visual long hairy stone he's wasted i mean he was kicked out he worked in a commun- a real commune immune when he was i think in his twenties he got kicked out because he was so lazy he didn't do his chores that kick them out that wasn't even a successful communist the issue you wait wait till that comes with i think going to be fun and you can you have history to prove it as with the soviet union falling apart is that the inevitably sitter take the case against communism we don't really have to know but i'm just saying but it's just you see that eventually human interest takes over and neither either two things happen someone there's not enough money to pay the bills right or there's corruption because there's money gets filtered somewhere else he's the answer to that you should know this mute you're we're good hard-working capitalist capitalism is conducive to human nature you're human as human human nature you're you're competitive additive yes you know you're very right you're not looking in equality or not equality but in the meritocracy meritocracy crecy is natural that's the way we were born that's the way we live it is unnatural to just say everything is community property were all l. e. qual it doesn't you know might as well not work any harder than the next guy because you're not going to get any more right that's why capitalism works among other reasons is because it's natural to the human condition and a guy like bernie obviously a lazy slob who just had everything he's never had a real job he's never going to be re- rewarded for your success that's in your heart work what are you going to do and it's not self interest because you do it for your children you know your family your future greater good i mean it that's a byproduct yep but you're not getting up and going to work and saying this is good for the country you saying this is good for my family that all works hand in hand and and people are just that ability and even if you're unless you're total more on you know socialism doesn't work you know it's the system is is not designed to succeed and i think if bernie's the nominee we're all gonna learn that everyone even the dummies out there you know burning buildings and they will bring he doesn't get the nomination is going to be riots in the streets which is one reason i would be in two thousand sixteen because he did get key got sixteen chance the riot going to try to screw them again they already are they rigged one all right they're gonna try to screw again i hope i mean if they do that i don't want hindu here in tampa people do don't do in boston don't do it new england go to wherever go go burn you know LA san francisco but they we'll rise up these people are dangerous well i'm interested to see you know now that you saw that what's going on in iowa with the app not working that that's it but i'm i'm down a rabbit hole right now by the way that mayor behind some of this yeah right someone said that that he was gonna do that to this company which show it was developed by then and mayor pete is a what's called a client shadow always was a shady character but biden's invest he's right so you know bernie wasn't awesome right brownies pete wasted no time in declaring victory so i'm down around alive if you believe it's hopefully when they have their next next to bait which i believe is later this week that they let this all out they're going to have to go after bernie and he's going to have to fight back they rigged debates in two one thousand sixteen against him they did again this time but he doesn't fight back he just takes it today well whatever he has to be like one of his supporters right and like the broom on fire well i think rakes with the app is that i think you're gonna see the interesting part of as this election goes on where you're going to see a ton of votes from people that don't exist and now you're going to see you're going to see like oh wait the the des moines people voted seven seven hundred thousand votes cast and there's only five hundred thousand people that live in the area where do these extra votes come for that i think that's gonna be the voter fraud is going to be a huge issue awesome still in the democrat primary people you're gonna see duplicates that's kind of how the number trend in the country is mayor cheat take advantage i know but i think you're gonna see because what you know you look at the big states that trump won that that swing states like the michigan's florida and some of the other ones that were really close i'm anxious to see the voter turnouts in that area and i think those are going to be highly contested areas where there's gonna gonna be a ton of voter fraud they're probably on both sides in my opinion because that's usually how it works but i think that's going to be a big issue because although you know hillary clinton won the popular vote trump was able to win the electoral vote because he won those swing states so don't think for a minute if you're a democratic pollster that you're not sending a ton of assets assets in a ton of resources into those states that you felt you should have one or you're cheated to tehran to right that wrong from two thousand and we're still waiting maybe they won't even have the results you know trump maybe trump will announce them in the middle of the state of the union slipping notes we have the official results and he'll look at him say we got the winner me i love he'll i'll say i love that pizzas a mayor peaches i actually when i woke up this morning i thought that was smart either way because the only thing that's good that's gonna come out of iowa to try to get a bump going torch nobody would nobody was going to take advantage of the bump so he went and grabbed it so what would have warranted it and she finished fourth that will kind of dumped yeah but but for somebody who clearly oh he has i'm not going to say he has a big shot or anything like that but he went and he took a shot and it's unfortunate it's backfiring we got a way to do it early though to why waste any more money like web glad you waited five more states or five more you lost your shot early she got money to spend especially if you're almost those done here like amy klobuchar the other day a lot press and a lot of positive pub for a buying around drinks for the whole bar and it was six thousand she bought six thousand thousand dollars worth of beer for a party for her and everyone says that wonderful i'm thinking well she's got the money campaign contributions it's not her money these a her supporters and you got more than that it's kind of like ernie boch even a five thousand dollar tip at three you get more publicity published you get is worth more than that when what i'm saying the publicity switch six grand on beer bunch of people who are supporting you so you want to pay back and everyone says waiter award them is that what you did did you you just by did you buy a couple beers one night and now we got somebody else but i will i promise but chose your whole a beer up and everyone's cheering i'm saying that is a good look money welfare that to the depressed warned supporters of these angry sanders supporters you got disclosure beaming with a with a beer hand san whenever whenever she spent was worth ten times that the pub was worth ten times that i agree with that that's money well spent better than a commercial aren't you hand out or any pamphlet that you're going to see still hi someone a beer but next week but it's a consumable handout next week we get so sick of that it's all my campaign money just by beer for everybody just run out on a bar around here around legacy place everyone tip will it's pretty close they'll be in nashua they'll be salem will be conquered they'll be buying you know beers and they'll be the kiss an ass kissing babies and biden will be you know she'll be in concord thinking he's in nashua or salem thinking he's in keene he he will maybe it'll beano hampshire thinking he's in arizona you never know but we're we're going to get the next week i worried about the the the the nature of this like you just said the shaking hands and kissing babies say this corona virus continues we're gonna everyone's going to be in surgical masks we're gonna be doing it through like paper plastic bags because no one's going to stack and you know what biden it'll be doing it'll be kissing babies on the lips you know they'll be it'll be sixteen years old club that's what he does he's a huggy kind of friendly guy but we got a week left of liz warren in the mix for second in new hampshire you know she could finish second you could finish fifth i leaned towards fifth because people are getting nowhere and they can't stand her and once she finishes out of the money i mean way out of the money new hampshire it's just you think you'll hampshire's the the cutoff for her when you're in the next state and you're supposed to win bernie's when it's his next to obviously and he's going to win in a route so yes people say we're done with liz worn moving on to someone else and bernie's logical alternative because visit both radicals he's not phony he's dangerous but he's not phony she's dangerous and full so close to call i'm just gonna tell you what i do now now that's not a life you believe in your who wants to hear that voice for another week oh my god oh what's the is there no one's dropping out after iowa right so as new hampshire you're going to try and right so when do you get to when you get to the gravitas of this and we went to the the three day which is early who ever so when she is so super tuesday is elimination day is that is that safe to say after super tuesday foundation taste yeah well there's some people like who have bloomberg have nothing else to do help mayor pete but i guess super tuesday much third so yes we have another just under a month less than a month february joy reid on MSNBC last night said did i it was a good night for michael bloomberg because it shows the ican actually run run an organization run a company well i agree with i would agree i actually i think bloomberg's a guy who's who's playing the smartly because of the reason he key can stay out of all the partisan stuff he doesn't have to go to the far left to get his votes he just lets everyone one killed themselves and you know what i mean and he's able to search i think of anyone that's out there that he is he's the most logical oh guy to defeat trump because he's got a good background he's been a public official he's he's a successful guy in his own but he's not he's just choosing to do it a different way or trump got into the mud and through some elbows bloomberg's just letting everybody else what he's doing is hating trump and that works i agree with that he just hates trump and trump is being asked about him right saint dumb stuff short stuff outstanding that's not a good does that resonate with anyone does anyone think maybe in front of a guys appear the fact activities not tall e six years old you understand that's not that person's fault as a tall person i yeah i don't i don't like to to make fun of shorter people that's not nice your president i appreciate eating tall but it's just it's not something i i don't go into into a place and i see a shorter person and choose to make fun of them for being short right i think i just enjoy the meaning people for being short i enjoy my taunus bloomberg is as vowed to spend a billion a billion defeating trump i mean he will not succeed but i guess he's old i don't i think bloomberg's i've got a very good shot if he was that he's he's got a legit shot for many reasons he's got a good he's got a good strong charisma none he's just he's a i mean you're the only one the bloomberg radio how he does have a marketing arm i do listen but they don't cover the democrats they only covered trump it's all he's focused on trump which is smart it is but he's as i said got some good economic policy i don't know about his foreign policy but no one really knew about trump's foreign policy when he got into it so it's just it he put america first he said who's gonna get us out and the trachea wall and the trade deals china racial nato which is actually if this goes through his actually going is going to be very good but it's it's it's gonna be fun state of the union tonight which will be comical because the people in the democrat they'll be more division than ever which i like and i i don't know who i always enjoy listening to the counter party at who's the other manos to pay check because i stopped listening and watching yeah that'll be shift get more in iowa nader now they're sharing it'll be shift did you see this at the end of the yeah they wanted like a final gretchen whitmer michigan governor wretched whitmer ever heard of her she looker let's see so shift was getting up literally slowly getting to go may choose to make the final statement nadler waddled right past them grab the mic and made the statement and you could hear shift gone jerry jerry jones like i'm supposed to do this he stole literally stole the mic back from shifts so that'd be great the last their last moment and me nether oh so angry and it was obviously they were gonna lose going to lose that's gonna happen tomorrow i believe right thursday thursday thursday now yeah i that i believe so the state of the union tonight thursday will be the vote and then like saturday sunday monday right so we're on the twenty ninth villanova hillary won iowa followed by john kerr and they'll you'll find out that hillary had some connection to that app they'll be this great you know like house of cards subplot the everyone part of of of you thinking that hillary somewhere just just enjoying all of this chaos in amongst that's what she's rooting for chaos she's rooting for she's the most needy narcissistic person i know but today's she's going to come in as a white knight to like save the democratic party she wants to be asked to to save i don't ask to be if the democratic craddock party was smart they would do i would say they would go to michelle obama they probably already have a bitch that she's politely declined maybe not maybe waiting for the next one gretchen whitmer she's going to be the running mate of whoever gets the nomination she looked like she white she's white yes she tall short she's cute here's to be tall all young how does how does what is she standing next to somebody in the picture talks like bloomberg i think she's talking to biden now stacey abrams running-mate may for bernie sanders they'll go down in flames it'll be the most lopsided election i can give bloomberg a lot of credit he's putting i've seen the ads on TV blown no i'm serious this is this is something that he's fighting well he's doing it the right way trying to get like a discount on what the hell's going on there i'm just saying that as a strategy wise compared everybody else you let everyone else you know declare themselves make their outlandish statements and try to to win all this when in essence they're just us killing each other that's really what's happening everyone's trying to one up everyone tonight's debate i believe they got him they changed the rules that rigged the thing to get him in the next debate vein i heard michael moore ranting about that and how they won't let cory booker in the next bay but they will let michael bloomberg but he dropped out michael bloomberg i know well i guess before he dropped out he said something like i can't even get into debates they wouldn't let him in the last debate okay and he says a couple of other k- holy on castro and you can get this michael moore goes off the rails and said they lead bloomberg at because he has a million dollars bloomberg is a seventy seventy eight next week valentine's day seventy eight born brighton massachusetts seventy eight is there anybody anybody under seventy that's that's viable other than people jeters busy stealing that's designing web abney was by seventy seven warren seventy this job is too big for a seventy eight year i'm sorry seventy eight year olds hollis trump is seventy two do it right and he's pushing it he's pushing it like this and i think of my dad like like like ver- barely like drive to go get groceries for my mom without getting caught up talking to a million people at the grocery store i couldn't even imagine him you when you're when you're like a teacher sure they make you retire sixty five or or a mailman you have to retire at sixty five your cops and you know the retire retire in their fifty s because it's a stressful job and the big fact pensions these days but they most people are done by sometime komo in their sixties maybe seventy this is the one of the hardest jobs there is right i it is one of the most stressful jobs there is you have a guy i just declared on the favorite michael bloomberg who seventy eight the favourite the guy leading the pack and all the polls is seventy eight and just had a heart attack who will be like if he wins it'd be the eighty seven at the end of a second term that's not and supreme court justices that's kind of important the job to right right they all stay till one hundred or try to at least well don't forget bloomberg was dyed like six months ago still sitting there that's an interesting conspiracy theory as well i enjoy that one followed some of that but you know don't forget bloomberg was was a republican as well he's an opportunist right but that so that makes the whole supreme court justice thing and that's a whole another big factor that goes into this oh he's gonna he's gonna nominate some you know pro choice liberal just like every the other democrat but he's he's not really running on the ultra liberal pro now we have we have a bloomberg support here i i'm not saying roy i'm just pointing the trying to order tom shannon it's the devils add we celebrate diversity here on the callahan podcast a bloomberg bloomberg bloomberg guide you guys have a nickname like blue means or something you know like we have the bernie bros. no i don't i don't like to do they've the cover the election differently with him in it i think so policy is they don't cover democrat some serious no you mean say that earlier what's true now we will all all of it i mean digitally radio story when he declared because he said we will no longer covered democrats we will still cover trump is trump lashed out at him he tweeted about about it and that's a huge deal worked for him editors writers were protesting i think one of them quit it as you could check this because it's so bizarre to say we're not going to cover the race at all because our boss or i don't even know if he's a a conflict of interest on by are still going to dig in on trump so they're picking sides bloomberg's entire business model from a news perspective is like they give news to the financial industry before it actually breaks so moves the market well ailing before breaks they but they i also provide the many other technological advancements that go onto that you're able to use on your computer but you pay for a subscription i know but i mean even thirty seconds begins matters with the stock no you're not getting you're not getting information before the general paul you're getting it at that time but it's real time data that's coming across your screen you're able to analyze doesn't and use and to be able to put into whether it's charts graphs and anything that you can do to help your your investment process yeah so there's competing in this there's nothing illegal about it you get it at the same time it hits it would hit the AP as soon as it hits the the time real time news you would see it at the same time there's no there's no he he was born at saint elizabeth same hustle i was born in coming around and had surgery at saint elizabeth his family is jewish suspected that good good one he lived in allston until bloomberg was two and they moved to brookline oh i wonder if you went to great scott's shots i celebrated my twenty first birthday then two years later moved to medford admitted he was an eagle scout we'll get to know the next democrat democrat nominee according to mute i i don't i didn't say that just owner i just think he's doing the best job to shove a what i think he's he's doing the best job of combining everybody else kill themselves in and just be like is commercial bela joy the super bowl commercial i i said i said that about about mitt romney hit the moods who's got houses everybody's got plenty of money like seventy three grandkids and he has such an ego that he moved to utah runs for senate wins now he's in the senate at seventy whatever he is i know youngish because he doesn't drink or smoke or anything but what magic the grandkids things that he's missed games isn't plays and birthdays just because he wants to sit there in the senate and listen to whatever adam schiff drone on for five straight days you got out of the conservative move that was such a hassle kick them out kick him to the kirby sucks trader her he's a phony i regret supporting him he should be up on the lakewood asaki ice fishing with his grandkid having some massive reservation yes was that your biggest mistake politic's threat of my life really no no i mean i certainly couldn't have rooted for support obama but i was a big mid supporter i was very very disappointed when he lost as as garth brooks says thank god for unanswered prayers because i wanted him to win badly he lost he blew it he was a pussy in the in the race he never fought some gifts yes i lost i wish i hope you lose every election or refund today's day and age you have to engage the fight you can't just say there's no more standing behind in trying to to rise above you have to either you have to initiate the fighter you gotta take the fight to them and be willing to willing to go that to go in those dirty areas for for hockey turned to go in those dirty areas to to get your point across and to get that support because because he just can't sit back anymore and expect it to happen it's going to get good state of the union tonight vote on impeachment thursday new hampshire next week it's going to get crazy around here were hoping for a a just a demoralizing defeat for the fake indian that's i mean nobody leaves tuesday probably not because they get the money right and they got to the ego so they'll probably hang in till march third and then they'll start dropping out and as soon as bernie becomes the nominee mini trump is going to start tweeting about kami this so march fourth as we're says we sit here and march fourth after super tuesday right who whose left well there are some people have nothing else to do you know like like bloomberg he's got money he's gonna health and else to do so that's one in your opinion i think be sanders i guess biden if he has a good showing in south carolina which i think he will biden bernie i guess buddha judge since he's declared victory in iowa ready bloomberg doesn't make it up no short guy like yang if he's got anything else to do he might he might hang around so they'll be they'll be at some point it's a sunken cost yes but he's enjoying his celebrity okay and he's getting a lot of love from he's got dave chapelle campaigning for him literally making phone calls and knocking on doors so i would love to take that call from dave it'd be very entertaining talk into vote for andrew yang i tend to not let people influence celebrities influence the way i vote i tend to look at the issues but i would definitely listen i'm dave chapelle just to just to hear him just to hear him talk mock ruffalo tells me how to vote on men right across the board tells me mark ruffalo i love multi millionaire lists who got there's wanna make sure that you don't get yours that's that's his goal but screw him we got a nice long list of people that you want to go screw themselves a good way to start today yes we do we got a lot we got we got more to get to two we have the results of iowa we don't have the results of the results were republican trump one democrats we're still waiting on we have some bad news some some sad news we thank from rush limbaugh which brought great joy to many liberals we'll get to that but first week we got you here and mute has a job now it's new every time he comes here to legacy club of boston and sits down with us you have one job of all others you need to bring the rumors yeah you and if he doesn't have him he's gonna make it skipped they wasn't fresher yes if you don't have them just pretend you work at the globe make them up you got things going last week he also can make them up by the way he's by far the most favourite sidekick back on the show like he gets the best praise on that's not always good you do really you get away with murder if you wanted to you that's doing as i've read up about it and i i i watched a lot of these serial killers he worked this way back in the days is you you have one thing going for your bubble others you're not reamer yeah so that's good to not be somebody so right so people despise rimmer and they said what does that what does robinson caught on kirk show the goldilocks zone mute is hit the goldie reamer okay and you know you played sports and there are people like colonnade if you actually played a sport they look like your gun you know like he looks up even play poorly poorly didn't play poorly didn't play at the highest level right although the XFL starting next week i'm psyched for that if you you comes out with a liquor i'll support that liquor overpaying whitney that's out there yeah what he did this week and he went and got a frappuccino starbucks dumped half of it out and fill the rest waga this strawberry lemonade drink a wish it's not a sign of a drinker yeah that's that's a little too sweet for me that that's the one that's it's going to stick to the head set vodka our mutual friend is the one who told me just add water to it and i thought he was crazy 'cause i don't drink booze he was right if you just add water to this tastes delicious you don't have to add water less bunker yeah we what no the vodkas excuse me it's actually it's actually pretty tasty i've had it is good but i i will come up with my own little concoction i do have a buddy that's created one it's called the it's called a a lesson aid where it's it's tito's soda and just a splash flash eliminate and it call it a lesson eight who and it's very on his invention that has to be the the guarantees are named it i arctic which could you would you be interested in going in with me on inventing creating liquor yes george clooney a. to las amigo keila costs amigo he made eight billion dollars yep and he gave all his buddies of million dollars in cash did you hear that story oh that's right awesome that's his business with them they'll friends from high school right his his his loyal friends one of them is nice randy gerber who's married to cindy crawford his own very wealthy guys we grew up with them like a bag with a million dollars they're sitting at a dinner table name like took off like the silver plates and it was a million bucks in cash you kidding me i didn't hear this this is right after it's all right after it sold on the fringe yours friend but not really yeah you're number nine dammit clooney somebody else who did the commercial with the peleton chick remember the peleton woman who who smoke and i love her but then the jin commercial whose was that ryan reynolds glenrothes cini hired it was a great move great make any fortune great call i don't like jim andy you'd learn to like all right so i'm a firm believer in this though jerry and you stay with me and this is a good one there's a there are three types of alcohol right there's the one that makes you throw up gets you sick right and there's the one that makes you want to fight and then there's the one that gets you in the morning mood with the berry berry white music playing background everyone's is different like if i smell southern comfort i'm going to throw up i was gonna say beat me too because when i was in high school a friend of mine you know how this works yes southern comfort and it went down my phone came mom knows and it just i can't even remember what is something comforting remember ethos would you can't smell it i can't can't look at it ziv keila fights on new year's eve when i was in college we after midnight and we were still celebrating got a beer and there was in the cabinet of bottle of that green shit that wanna majori yamadera we kill the whole thing right up and i threw up green for like a week i can't look at midori see what's still sheep midori two genera they do a bunch of those they'll get the pucker ones and those yeah that that c- tequila is my barry white if you get a kilo that's the the music starts playing a nice margarita that's that's it but that's the fight one gin not as a different kind of buzz it's get some hendrix come on yeah well you know my old producer before you know he was stricken tanqueray in the morning before work it's probably not a good recipe got good ratings you start doing that weighed three hundred pounds drag tanqueray all day and he drank it before we came to work at four in the morning and drag it at work and we never knew at strange we never ever no that's that's disturbing almost died almost drag himself death that sounds like a cage leaving las vegas close but he he made it through he got skinny a little too skinny hopefully he's doing okay now whatever fight and what's your fight drink tequila for the fight really yeah tequila and i think it's very white music when barry white music going i'll maybe beer would be taking too many is doing wine bread wants the mellow red wine i only drink when i want to go to get to sleep like i'll drink red wine no-one tired i it's like taking tylenol oh PM for me drink and read i just had good tequila for the first time yes and it's it's tasty very tasty georgia's right i want to get to kuni one i know so why don't we work on that you're let's do this you're you're you're you're very smart guy you even though you went to BC you seem like an the idea man yeah an idea like occasionally things pop in your head and you write them down in san wanna do why don't we work on a liquor a booze a wine i don't what i want to just i have very low aspirations i only i just wanna make a billion dollars okay look my issue is that these things usually hit me at three in the morning and then i can't go back to bed which drives me that's so drink some red wine but i do but i want to get to the latest rumor the brady room for brady whisper mute you scott matron who is the reason brady's bend in new england for twenty years he was so bad when tried out for the patriots they went and they had to draft brady and give up on mute route but let's get to that want to do do you wanna do shea shea and then we're going to get to the latest on the the wisecracker line from scott i lost to shane let's talk about shea concrete homeowners did you know that my brother-in-law greg the guy who runs shake concrete has a huge selection election of pre cast concrete steps with your building a new home to replace an old stash it has great values with designs for any home available in concrete or customized demise with beautiful stone granite or brick i'm granted guy they sell your guy i know you're a brick i'm a guy where somebody like greg would just tell me what to do and ideally yes you wanna share you can do that because they know what they're doing they won't stay you're wrong if you're a contractor like your old man like jack loney yup you i can go to lunch and learn this for engineers and contractors you go to one of their plants or their office they give you lunch yep they get you drunk and then they tell you know they'll get you no no i don't think so how much how about learn learn all about pre-cast this is this is my marketing brain as we talk right how about we get rid of the lunch and learn and we do a brunch mentioned learn for our listeners at the legacy caudill is bold ranjan yeah no you're an idea man because hanging around here the extra ninety minutes with you would be tragic and i'd rather just do it right after we recall told you shave manufactures a variety of pre cast concrete products make sure your contact shea for any uneven pre cast concrete product needs and even questions contact them ask for greg or just go to shake concrete dot com i got a question for you mute before we get to a before we get to brady hold your son's twelve twelve soon to be thirteen next birthday twelve twelve eleven and nine or my sons and i have a five year old daughter twelve eleven and nine so these three boys we'll we'll worry about your daughter another day these three boys were they they sitting and watching the halftime show with you and was forced to then have the talk already had the talk with the with the older too to so they kinda understand that they did not watch the halftime show because they don't really listen to good my wife asked my daughter she wanted i wanted to watch it she passed because she around today doing that tongue thing the chikira did if she watched i mean more than anything it's uncomfortable for me because i'm i'm sitting there watching with my wife and you're trying to pay attention yet not pay attention because you see that out there and you're just like you know because my wife's like looking at me like you enjoying this going this the j. lo or right in my age demographic and and you make a subtle comment like wow they look pretty good for many more for fifty years and forty honey you mean you weren't a jealous husband wife was watching a. rod to the selfie video during an older jalen rose fifty she's yes she you know you're sitting there and you're like wow she looks great for like fifty that inevitably gets you geel theon yeah but she actually sent me a funny no my wife sent me a funny tax text of nine hundred eighty five women was fifty and it was blanched from golden girls and then and then she said women at five and two thousand twenty and it's channel on a stripper pole which is actually pretty amazing she's too good you think ben affleck setback came to man now still has turned the now in the back of his mind what an eclectic group crew of guy she's been with ben affleck mark anthony now mark anthony that that's the tough one small scrawny guy jail i mean since you don't get you right right but she looked amazing the shows amazing i it wasn't this show but it was not for children except the children are onstage they actually had ten year old girls up there on stage i think that is wholly inappropriate you wanna have dance on a stripper pole grabbing grabiner crotch that's all well and good but then they bring the girls up including our own daughter to do a song with her and i'm thinking is can we keep the kids out of this i was wondering how a data youngsters like you handled it my guys didn't really watch it they are focused on eating the food that we had the buffalo chicken dip in some food at a time good for you were doing jose yeah and the you get you get no break at the super bowl now get to watch the commercials got to watch the halftime show got to watch the game it was funny watching the game the whole time you can at some point the chiefs are coming back mom's gonna do thing well i felt and it's always funny it's like you know last last time i was on amazon hours like so so amped to talk about the super bowl we got like two minutes of it because we got on our tangents which which i like but as i was watching that game you saw san francisco's defense it's get tired there in the last couple of minutes and it's funny the tale of two games and how everyone's remembered if you stop the game with six minutes left in the game you're going jimmy garoppolo played extremely well and could be the MVP maybe nick bosa right and patrick mahomes are gonna say this is the worst game you've seen him play 'cause he was off until six minutes a game he was terrible he was missing wide takes terrible throttles rose awful decisions because you're in fields ranging you given up points there on a bad throw he wasn't he you know he doesn't normally set his just feed all the time because he has the ability to do that because of his arm but he was just missing throws that you've seen a make because that pass russia's getting to him and then all of a sudden third and fifteen they hit the big shots at two hills the big and analysis and now everyone looks at mahomes is a real clutch guy the air to tom brady and everyone says jimmy can't handle that he and then the narrative changes he he was he had no pressure in his first two playoff games lots of pressure in the fourth quarter of the super bowl and he didn't in handle it well yeah i thought he took well he also got knocked around pretty good he missed some open guys and i i really hate the second guessing when people show that like the twitter clips lips of uh if he would've just saw someone in the flat here to get him the ball here would have been a first down easy shit bag like you're not back there with these three hundred pounders come at you mock to you with the game and you're making this decision in two seconds like i said he's got one hundred fifty million i don't see one hundred fifty more than frank clark has right now so i'll i'll take his bank account but everyone in hindsight it's easy to look back on those frozen you should've thrown here he should have done this it's not that easy and then you look at mahomes and i i think the the crazy thing is and i got bullied for saying this last year when i was talking with meter is that you said radiator well known no no no it was online i was on your radio station on talking about super bowl but i said that how brady was great when he needed to be great last year and everyone said i'm an idiot that i didn't when i was talking about because he stunk most of the game well everyone's talking about how great mahomes was but he was literally a dog for the first three and a half quarters plus of that game but he was and i said last year about this grady was br great brady was great when he needed to be great and that's the same pattern ooh ooh that was gonna come out of that in the super bowl it'd be this moment where the pressure would be great and one of these quarterbacks is gonna come through you said before the show that you thought damian williams was the MVP but i disagree there was no real MVP but mahomes won that game stepped up when he had to and won the game i'm okay we again the NBA pledged who picks her so bad but if he threw another one or if he didn't connect on that third fifteen they lose lose your your you know that that margin for error because jimi had the bomb missed it someone else could do damian williams did it wasn't special i got home does and i thought nick bowes was the best let's play on the field i thought he was great i thought he was legitimately and i think a lot of people thought that as well but you're you're right in that extent i just thought those two picks kinda tainted it in the first three and a half quarters but you look at it and you're like mahomes was great when he needed to be great when they needed him the most he was able to step up and do that just just like brady did last year against the rams and that's the sign of a great quarterback you don't you can't always be great but when your team needs you the most when you can step up and do that that's the definitely there's a feeling and i have to manage going to mahomes is going to be in the mix for the next decade with andy reid is coach with these weapons even if he has to bringing some new guys loses some guys the free agency he will be an obstacle in the AFC for the next decade which brings us the brady one of the teams on the list is the chargers the chargers have to go through the chiefs yeah and they have terrible offensive line and some people have said the brady doesn't want giselle they don't want to live in LA they don't wanna go back to LA right they sold their house with a with a moat to who's to dr drey right dr dre they don't want to go back there but we now know there are lots of teams on the brady list the latest is the daily mail reporting that there was a moving van a moving truck and there's pictures interest interest speculate we got pictures of the moving truck at the brady house in brookline and we'll hire movers when you're getting rid of a house that's something normal people do yes what you to begin with himself no shit it's going to call the office of line to come over and hey guys want to move some couches million self storage his daily mail we have someone on this that wouldn't they follow it siewert going yeah i like to know where it's moving walt my thing and it is it is interesting that he's got this beautiful beautiful house he worked hard to say pulled some strings to get it got land from pine manor right the school and i'm gonna guess got all permits not needed to build this massive house on a place that had no building in brookline a kind of a pristine spot on the country club anyway gets the house built this beautiful we've seen it was all in that brady versus time video and like couple years later gives it all up his kids kids are involved in sports they go to school you'd think they'd be some reason to stay here even if he played for another team they might wanna keep it they might want to stay there not only moving they're desperate they lowered the price eight million bucks they're desperate to sell i know real estate expert you probably know real estate expert but i know if you're trying to sell a house you don't want to start moving stuff out and look desperate to low ball bits yeah the low ball bids kids are coming in so that you're just going to drop the drop the price eight million bucks so if some real estate i don't know how desperate they are to sell financial eight million all batches eight ninety dollars a significant care about the money but then you have idiots like this this dope right across the most they've culinary thinks because of the hulu hulu commercial that means is coming back to england if he's coming back to new england wisey so desperate to sell his house yeah an answer for that day i don't really care about his real estate transactions actions in relation to his pro football playing career to be honest with a lot of real estate transactions going on apparently there seems to be news moving to nashville greenwich what do we know do we know all the places that has homes i remember last last year somebody told me like gronk own homes in foxborough that i'd never heard he own so how do you know what he owns we just no but why would you go condo and foxborough and take that kind of loss if you're staying you'd wait anyway i don't know what his initial investment and so even though he dropped at eight million bucks that does appear he's leaving is leaving able to write it off with a capital gain maybe one stop set his new contract with a real estate office is transaction you go told you last week you got everyone going with the best room or to date it's still the best rumor today in his brady to dallas it'll be the biggest story in NFL history if brady suits up for the cowboys next year is that still a possibility in your mind i think that's the most viable object prescott still not signed not french sign and you know the best parts no one's talking about it no one's talking about because maybe it's just the both sides doing a good job of keeping tidy but everyone speculating on l. a. think that it just doesn't it seems more and more or less likely likely because that often line gordon gordon a free agent hunter henry now here here's a guy that the patriot should be targeting hunter henry tight end for the chargers he's been injury-prone had some ACL injuries and got a broke his foot i believe early last year guy came out of arkansas very talented receiving tight end just hasn't been able to stay healthy this a perfect perfect free agent to a target for the patriots at someone that you want to get a viable threat inside the hash mark because you know chris gasper wrote an article about how the patriots tree it's only targeted tight ends nine percent nine percent of times this year and tom brady only targeted the tight end nine percent with with the league average was twenty one percent so that's a dramatic drop off from the year before gronkowski was air but also below the league average sue you gotta think that they're going to be looking to upgrade that position because because it's just such an integral part two to the offense in when tom brady's there so the patriots aren't they're saying they're in the market the pain thirty million bucks if they're going to give the proof that they're going to surround him with some talent weinberg preemptive face-saving deal where the just trying ron say we tried i think everyone knows he's gonna look around and everyone knows they'll be something rider say oakland to has at that but you look at later in the chiefs division to measure a whole different offensive system west coast system is not the same system tom brady has played his entire life what if democracy gels jon gruden i want to do this ah mark davis he probably thinks it's a nice shiny new toy let's go get them yeah but that's tough because gruden's own his coach this system his entire life your action a revamp everything that he's ever known to do this here's so that's the toughest thing that i think is the biggest obstacle for this that transaction is mystic to mesh their offensive philosophies to to make it successful here's did you think watching the hulu web meant brady was coming back to new england i mean i already knew he was coming back to play i didn't take it's coming back to new england though you think he's coming back to the new england and play i still think that's the number one choice yeah i think i think that's where he ends up i think is number one choice as dallas but i do think that i i think he ends up in doing so what weapon weapons can we get to make brady happy i just gave you hunter henry greg good option from carolina because they may be in the rebuilding mode he's got about a year or two who left he's equality tight end there's some wide receivers available i mean look at the two guys relied on a lot outside of a hurt ataman is is is is is harry harry and jacoby myers to rookie wide receivers you see a big transition from players from first year to second year so they can get better door sets probably gonna be gone on do they look at these other teams you look at the cowboys amari cooper is available the cowboys the titans the the bucks they have better do they all better weapons and the patriots if you don't add to box have better weapons offensive line is is okay it's pretty good good but they got to great receivers to great tight ends decent running game they're bruce arians coaches the system that's why that that fits and make some sense and and i don't mccarthy is is a west coast guy but he you know he kind of changed it as aaron rodgers was there in kellyn moore's calling the place so that could could sue and and the cowboys division is winnable like anything well look at your quarterback that you're facing in that division your although great has i've had well he struggled to stay healthy daniel jones rookie quarterback right i mean and then you've got haskins that's in a rookie quarterback from washington he's run that division easily you went ten games easily win that division and tampa's not ed visit because you've got carolina that's gonna probably be rebuilding depending on cam newton's health right right you don't know what's happened with drew brees you don't know what's going on there and then you know you've got the falcons and who knows what's going on with them because they don't know where whereas scott mutual sang tom brady going this week we'll check in with every week but i think he wants to go to dallas i think that would be as number one choice for the right there okay but i think he's gonna stay tom brady wants dallas of course dallas wants brady jerry jones because a lot of people like they want dak prescott because of the long term and my good but i mean he's a five hundred quarterback is if you could say to any fan base would you give up oh you know six years of said quarterback for one super bowl i guarantee everyone's going to say that was true super bowl chris casper rights and the globe there remains no better place for brady to compete for championships chips the new england continued to play an offense tailored to him like what like a bespoke suit the house that i don't i don't have a piece folks like a beast books russell ties TB twelve method to the masses these folks i believe workout it's very i very spoke as a workout suit i believe can't you cross as in any of these dallas you can't proselytize TB twelve method in LA or dallas or miami obstacle right well familiar of offense it's the same system was talking about the TB twelve of TB twelve yeah yeah maybe it's a chance chance to get into dallas though that's a whole new market so he's moved out we all know he's moved out he's gone that brooklyn hockey mom was crowley a couple of weeks ago our work and she's all she's she's done i don't get the idea of pulling the kids out of school though that's but whatever it is a little weird i mean i don't want to go into that world and i don't know maybe they're they don't have a lot of friends which they must have some they must have some comfort level you're in the middle of the school year up and gone we think to new york that's when they've been spotted but they they did get pulled out of school i don't know i don't know but i i just mean obviously sell the house moving trucks where they stay all this stuff up right i don't know but it'd be interesting to find out that the thing is that is this this is the kind of thing we're gonna we're gonna get we're not gonna get a lot of official statements right from the brady campaign or the patriots or any team when get rumors going to get adam schefter wouldn't get the daily mail oh with some photographer in the bushes we're going to get for the next two months and he got neutron guys your your sources voice we know that we can the sources name but we know who sort of who it is and we know it's a good one and we know good source two years tampa yeah it happened you just listed the reasons why well yesterday before we wrap up here we got bad news for for any all decent human beings it was sad news bad news rush limbaugh legend icon pioneer giant in the talk radio business rush limbaugh announced that he has advanced lung lung cancer i don't know what that means but it doesn't sound good i think of a red sox broadcaster and red sox legend jerry remy when i hear news like this because he is a survivor survivor man he's had what four relapses five relapses any just keep going just keeps fighting just keeps getting back in the booth and getting back on the air i'm hoping for russia's sake it's a similar story but some people it doesn't work out so well we don't know he didn't even mention what the treatments going to be just said he'll be leaving the airwaves he'll be leaving the job occasionally to go get treatments recover from treatment but when i heard the news my initial thought was here we go you're gonna gonna get one liberal after another basking in this and joining this and low and behold within minutes came the tweets from the usual usual suspects what's his name the guy that's always doing his tariq tariq and she'd tariq nasheed he's a blue checkmark doc with like three hundred thousand followers who tweeted rush limbaugh has spent decades spewing dangerous anti black racism now he has has cancer i know we shouldn't celebrate one's misfortune but party over here and tweeted out a picture of a party and people dancing that is a lie he's not spent decades decade spewing anti-black racism his producer boasts nearly is a black man and they're good friends and they have a great relationship and you know people were out the defending and things were coming fast and furiously comedian nick nick jack pappas tweeted i'm so sorry for lung cancer her no one deserves i wish him the best medical care he's worked on divine denying others i'm so sorry it's it's awesome reading tweets because the english in them is usually not top notch that's because they ca- china cut the cut some of the stuff up there so it's but it's specialist takes the on these things to get them and message out it's these are people that don't listen to him they don't hear him they hate him and i understand understand that but this only works one way if the equivalent of rush limbaugh and i don't even know who that is on the democrat side there is no one essentially i don't know who yeah there's no one who radio that reach there's never been a i mean if you want it to any of the main news anchor rachel natto equivalent of sean hannity there is no liberal talk show host on his level that never has been because they can't do it that's true they cannot do it he does three hours a day essentially without guests and he you know he's entertaining and he's informative and he's good at his job and he's been on for doing it for thirty one years ears and there was no one before him who did it there's others now like like hannity and mark levin and others who've done it since he blazed the trail but there's no liberal just say okay say say bill maher say rachel maddow chris matthews chris hayes or someone if there were rowdy if okay if they were guys on the other side like tariq sank celebrating the diagnosis of lung cancer for any they would be the the the the it'll be coming down on him yeah everybody across the board would be killing it would be just absolute destroying him and denouncing them and twitter would remove them from twitter these people are blue checkmark people celebrating rush limbaugh has has lung cancer they're still on twitter and james woods and john dennis are not james was his off still i always he was in his tweet it's a shame as always very entertaining and he was he was at this point and i stand by it as if you you have the right to say it there's consequences for what you say no matter how much people disagree it's on my course of action but you know these people have the form to do it now and that's this is their way they have getting it i would have of course you have the right i don't want them arrested right again if that were she we're on the other foot that person would be banned from twitter from facebook from every so they would be like like turtle boy you wouldn't even be able to you know turtle blood can't even get on twitter and his house for sonnen neighbor and you stop by i and you get on they've been banned him this his house is banned from twitter because all he does is break stories and people complained because he he exposes you know bad people and frauds he's banned but tariq no i assume it's because he's he's reporting news and if they disagree with that news is factual they'll potentially they banned him tariq's this giving an opinion tariq is celebrating the cancer diagnosis of a of another person if that were the other way around john dennis said all he did was make fun of lester holt that's enough cancer just didn't like lester hope he gets banned and destroyed it's just a double standard i i say everyone can say anything they want let's have the same standards if you're gonna joke or celebrate in a one-sided you gotta be able to accept it the other way right so i never ever fly if it were the other way around but anyway that's we wish the best to rush i hope he i hope he ruins the day of tariq can all the other liberals in and pulls through and comes back stronger than ever yeah you just wish the best no one i wish that anyway just like alex trebek's in his fight through brain cancer cancer pancreatic cancer that's that's that's a tough one especially people that you've grown up with and listen to and even though i didn't really i didn't listen to rush limbaugh but i know about him and her changed the world for him there wouldn't be you know the many many of the voice that you hear out there would not have had the opportunity there was no such thing before he came along and just change the game for everybody right and that's good thing that's a good thing but anyway we wish the best to him we want to get you back in here against soon you're everybody's favorite wouldn't you say yeah the poll didn't turn out in his favor ver- but a lot smaller than everybody else yes it's it's you're working on it's changing quickly china to to to get i mean if you if you out this booze creation that you guys i'm in let's do it that's that's the key we gotta find like come we'll we'll it'll be some stupid dave colonnade connect it'll be combination of vodka and strawberry frappuccino listen people are drinking it right now what do you want to say but i got to be able to consume the drink that i wanna half half you know what i mean that's i want to be real i want to have some validity to it i'm not gonna sell it to to sell out okay all right i got some morals and principles i stand behind the new tax becoming brother we appreciate it thanks for bringing the rumors although you didn't come up with much new today still we were still politics the whole still gone a yeah you we've endorsed michael bloomberg very disappointed but anyway we're still going to dallas that is according to scott newton when he signs the cobbler's you get all the credit then we make then we make our move to the liquor business explodes out there's no stopping us now rate review subscriber back on that train this is the callahan podcast we need you we need you to subscribe tell your friends we need you to listen we need you to rate we needed to review please if you don't i get a real job and i don't wanna do that thanks is to shake concrete x. ally paving it thanks to the legacy club of boston this is the callahan podcast we'll do it again tomorrow

hillary clinton karen callahan callahan liz donald j trump michael bloomberg john kerry hunter biden houston astros iowa new hampshire gerry callahan scott president limbaugh tom brady boston william weld seventy eight year million dollars
Targeted Killings: Suleimani & Hoffa (with Jack Goldsmith)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:29:07 hr | 1 year ago

Targeted Killings: Suleimani & Hoffa (with Jack Goldsmith)

"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm pre- Berrara so the real question. Here this is not going to happen from the executive branch constraining. The president will happen in one of two aways electing a president who feels that the United States should be more constrained and then a congress. That's going to stand up exercises constitutional responsibilities. Both of those things. Things are easier said than done. That's Jack Golson. He's an expert in national security law. A professor at Harvard Law School and a CO founder of the Law Fair Block Doc. One of the leading legal resources out there today. Goldsmith is also a prolific author while his previous books have touched on the power of the president. His new book in Hoffa's shadow shadow is about his personal connection to one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of the twentieth century. We get into all of that. Plus Goldsmiths analysis of the legality of Qasim Salamis targeted killing his tenure at the helm of the office of Legal Counsel in the Bush administration and the state of the law as it stands today. That's coming up. Stay tuned this episode is brought to you by personal capital. Personal capital provides financial advice from a team of registered advisors and gives you the online financial tools so you can get a three sixty degree view of all your money all in one place get more information at personal capital dot com personal capital invest with logic land with heart. It's hard not to feel bombarded by an endless stream of bad news but have hope check out the podcast future. Hindsight you can listen to host meal. ATMOS- interview activists and experts in justice democracy and equality each week. You'll discover why these citizen change makers have hope and passion as well as gained insight on what we can do to bolster elster our civic life. Listen now at future hindsight DOT COM or wherever. You enjoy podcasts. Here's the first question answering in twenty twenty comes from twitter user. Mrs Frith who asks at Pre Berrara will this madness ever ever end. My answer is no hi. This is Don Wiggins from spotswood New Jersey pointing Monday evening so we just heard today that John Bone says he will be willing to testify if fifteen. That's right for me is fairly specific language. And when I think I'm hearing is that if you ask me testify I won't but if you subpoena me I will. Why would we do that? Love the show. Thanks very much don. Thanks for your question. It's a common one but it's also a common practice for witnesses to take that approach and have that stand. There are many reasons for it but essentially some witnesses do not WANNA look like. They're dying to come testify. They're dying trying to come say nasty things or cast aspersions on their former colleagues including their boss. which in this case is the president of the United States but if issued a subpoena take the posture that they will comply with legal compulsory process? That's not their choice. They're just complying with legal requirements. And they don't want to defy subpoenaed and go to court and potentially potentially get reprimanded by a court and forced to testify. After a long protracted process I know it seems odd to a lot of folks but even my own practice there were various times where individuals would say. I'm not excited to come talk to you. But of course if you go to the trouble of issuing a subpoena I'll show up now. Just repeat again in John. Bolton's case there's a certain amount of gamesmanship James Manship. I think you can infer from his conduct including that. He was quiet for a while including that he has a book deal including that he waited until various other. Things took place before saying that. He's prepared to testify including that. He seems only willing to testify in front of the Senate where we know that the likelihood of his being issued a subpoena is pretty low and not saying the same thing about the house us so while it is true that the standard procedure for a lot of witnesses. Who Don't WANNA look too eager to testify in John Bolton's case maybe some amount of self interested strategizing going on as well well? This question comes from twitter user casual joker who asks since the articles of impeachment haven't been transmitted can house open backup the inquiry call additional witnesses. My understanding is that they truly can call additional witnesses. Continue their enquiry. I'm not aware of any rule. Oh that says that. They're inquiry has to have ended at the time that they voted on articles of impeachment. Someone could make such an argument but I don't know who would have standing to object. I guess the Republican minority might but I think Nancy Pelosi has made clear Adam. Schiff has made clear Jerry. Nadler's made clear that they will continue to look at evidence and continue to fight for documents. Yes I have been speculating. As have others that in light of John Bolton's recent proclamation that he would comply with subpoenas issued by the Senate that the house should issue subpoena the John Bolton because I don't I don't understand on what basis you can decide to comply with one chamber subpoena but not another chamber subpoena so I don't know that it makes a difference whether whether or not the articles of impeachment have been transmitted or not but the various committees in the House continue to have oversight authority and whether or not it's related to impeachment. I think they can continue to ask questions and get documents and bring more light to events that happened under the trump presidency. This next question comes into tweet from twitter. User Sir Scott in Shaker. Who Asks Me? Please explain why. It's not correct primavera. I'm neither an attorney Nora constitutional scholar I'd love to hear you expound on this and what he's referring to is my tweet saying not correct responding to Senator Marco Rubio's tweet in which he said. The testimony evidence considered in the Senate impeachment trial should be the same testimony and evidence the house relied upon. And the reason I said that's not correct as virtually everyone else who has a law. Degree has also pint on twitter and elsewhere is a no case that I've ever worked on. Did you have the exact same witnesses. And only the same witnesses who went into the grand jury to provide a basis for the charges to be filed namely the the indictment which is the equivalent in this scenario of the articles of impeachment compared to the witnesses that are called at the ultimate trial to prove guilt or fail to prove guilt out and to the extent that those things analogous the criminal case versus impeachment and trial in the Senate. There's no rule is no regulation. There's no constitutional principle there's no basis in fairness or justice to limit arbitrarily the witnesses in the Senate trial to the very same that we heard from in the house especially early because various witnesses who have direct knowledge including among other people. John Bolton were prevented from testifying in the house. So Marco Rubio does know what he's talking about and is making a political statement founded nothing other than some partisan self interest that he seems to be embracing This question comes from twitter. User Terry Post who asks at Premera. What are your thoughts on a possible? six-month sentence from Michael Flynn Ciller recall. Michael Flynn was the first national security advisor to president trump was charged with a crime namely lying to the FBI and has been awaiting sentencing for a long time the last time he was awaiting sentencing in December of two thousand eighteen. So it's been more than a year in the middle of that hearing. The judge decided to adjourn that hearing for various reasons which we don't have to rehash here. Now Michael Flynn is ready to be sentenced this month on January twenty eighth and the first time around as I discussed on this podcast the prosecutors in the case did not seek jail. Time with respect to Michael Flynn's conduct even though it was serious conduct and among the reasons for that among the reasons for prosecutors being sort of lenient in that case is that the range council by the sentencing guidelines was only zero to six months. They noted the Michael. Flynn had a long history of public service. The United States of America in uniform notwithstanding the lying more recently and that he'd accepted responsibility. And if you listen to the podcast with any frequency you know that. That's an important element in a judge's decision making about a sentence. They WANNA WANNA know that if you've pled guilty that not only factual basis for that but also that you have remorse and you've accepted it and you're being front about it so the prosecutors this time around are no longer saying that the Senate should be at the lowest end of the guideline range meaning no jail time. They are now saying that he should be sentenced. Michelson should be sentenced up to six months. Wants so possibly up to the maximum to the guidelines range. They are not specifically saying it should be six months. But they are explicitly saying that they're withdrawing their prior recommendation of no jail time and the principal reason for that is that they believe and I think the evidence is clear on this. That Michael Flynn has no longer shown in acceptance of responsibility. In fact fact. He's tried to withdraw his guilty plea. He tried to blame other people as the prosecutors wrote in their submission to the court quote far from accepting the consequences of his unlawful actions. He he has sought to blame almost every other person entity involved in his case including his former counsel and as we know. Judge Sullivan has not seen particularly patient with these kinds of shenanigans. Here's how the New York Times put it. Mr Flynn's cooperation took a star turn. He fired his well. Respected lawyers and hired. Sidney Powell a truculent former federal prosecutor embraced right wing conspiracy theories suggesting Mr Flint had been a target of politically biased. FBI Cabal and accused prosecutors of misconduct in his case every allegation of that kind of behavior has been rejected by the judge. So what am I thought. Possible six months sentence given his conduct giving his counsel's conduct given the nature of the underlying conduct for which he was charged. I think six months would be fair. The we'll see what the judge does Stay tuned there's more coming up right after this. Hey Stay tuned listeners. Sure the holiday season maybe over. But that doesn't mean you should stop giving the gift of Understanding Law and politics to your friends or to yourself with the new year. We're bringing in new legally complex issues. Start Twenty twenty off right by joining the cafe insider community. We're here to help you make sense of the latest news with the cafe. Insider podcast weekly note from me bonus content from stay tuned and more head to cafe dot com slash gift to join today. That's cafe dot com slash gift. My guest this week is Jacqueline Smith. He's a professor at Harvard Law. School Katina's are notoriously difficult. Course he's also a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a CO founder and active contributor to l'affaire Goldsmith. Join me on Monday to talk about the implications of trump's decision to launch a strike targeting and Ronnie and General Qassem Sulamani. We get into whether the decision was lawful and whether that even matters the significance ends of prior. LLC OPINIONS The power a precedent and the stretchy concept of imminent threat. We also talk about his new book in which Goldsmith writes about the fact. His stepfather was a top suspect in the disappearance. Of One of history's leading labor organizers Jimmy Hoffa. That's coming up stay. Two It tackles myth. Thanks so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me. This is a long time coming. I wanted to have you on for a very long while. I don't know if you remember. Remember this but many years ago when I worked in Washington. DC We're going to talk about this new book that you have which is really an impressive book and very interesting book. But I came to a book Party of yours back in Washington Ashington I guess in two thousand and five seven I think the terror presidency the terror presidency and you gave a nice talk so it's nice to have you on. Finally I don't remember you come into the book talk but I remember having a beer afterwards. Yes I remember that I remember that. Also keep that secret. What happens over beer stays stays there so you have this amazing book which is different from your other books and I want to get to that in a few minutes but let me just mentioned it now called in Hoffa's shadow a stepfather disappearance in Detroit and my search for the truth? And what makes it fascinating. We'll get into it in some detail shortly is that it's a book about law and about crime but also personal to you so we'll come back to that. But congratulations on writing that book. Thank you we set up this interview some weeks ago and I thought we talk about certain topics including the book which we will but in the interim just last Thursday Thursday recording this on Monday afternoon January sixth it turns out that you are the perfect guest to talk about a whole bunch of other issues relating to the United States killing wing of an Iranian General Kassim Selemani. So maybe we start with that sure and I know you've you've made some statements and you've written some things about the legal aspects aspects of it. Which is what I'm interested in talking about? I'm GonNa ask you eight overbroad simple question first and then we'll we'll break it down. There are a lot of things that are confusing to people. Even to lawyers don't necessarily practice in this area too confusing but the question is was it lawful for the United States to intentionally kill General Sulejmani outside the Baghdad airport. So let me start with a caveat the answer I'm going to give is yes under. US precedence in the the US understanding of domestic and international law. But when people ask is this lawful they assume that there's some objective answer or there's some final final adjudicator that can tell us what the governing principles are. And the truth. Is that both the president's constitutional powers under article two and the relevant international national principles or just contested all the way to the bottom The United States takes a pretty aggressive view on the use of force consistent with the UN Charter. So that's the background and so I'll just say this. I think that the strike is easy to justify legally and I wanted to distinguish between whether it was lawful and whether it was a good idea I I think it's easy to justify legally based on the president's that have been established since nine eleven so let's talk about the constitution and article two would pertain to the executive branch for those at home. We haven't been paying attention to civics in a while. What does article to say about what the president can and cannot do in this context so article? A two says practically nothing on its face about the president's military powers designates him as the commander in chief the original understanding of that provision was was simply that he would be the top military. Commander it was really about civilian control of the military and it didn't really have a whole lot of content in terms of the presidential military powers except possibly and this is the core presidential military power the president's power to use military force in self defense. And that can be self defensive. The Nation or it can be self-defensive troops ever since the founding presidents have interpreted this commander in chief Klaus to give them more and more power to US unilateral lateral force abroad ever expanding theories across the decades and centuries and across administrations and presidents have built up through. Well I'll see opinions and practice. In congressional acquiescence a very robust set of precedence that gives the president wide discretion to use force without congressional authorization. And but I don't think that actually comes into play here in the way that we usually talk about it and I can explain. Why if you want by referring to the office of Legal Counsel which we've discussed a lot on the show all right within the Justice Department and of which you were the head for about nine months? During the Bush administration with respect to the Oval Office. There have been opinions over time that do bear on this question right. And what are those opinions say. So they're hard to summarize And again I don't think that when I'm about to tell you is necessarily on point for this strike but here here's they basically say in recent years the basically say that the president has very broad powers under article two to US unilateral military very force without congressional authorization. If there's an so-called national interest and Elsie has defined what a national interest is in ever-broader waterways to the point where I can't think of a natural national interest that the president would want to use force for that wouldn't count so Elsie is interpreted read that power very broadly and it's only suggested one check on that and the check is that if the power that the president reports to use rises to the level of war if it threatens a long-term conflict if it threatens danger to US forces have it threatens ground troops that in that circumstance the president might. I'd have to seek authorization from Congress. But very speculative that's it's speculative yes in the opinions. It's somewhat speculative it's speculative as to what the triggers are how intense it has to be to go to Congress. That's the main thing that this theory has been used primarily to justify what some people call war distance because the basic theory Correa's if there's no danger of US troops being harmed and there's not a whole huge danger of escalation then. The president can basically use force when he wants and and that basically means that the type of force has been using the last fifteen years. Rosen's Obama became president. I guess force from the Air Special Operations on the ground and cyber Weber. These are not things These are things that the president basically can do and I'm generalizing bit but basically can do without congressional authorization. LLC opinions have become come controversial and the average person in America doesn't fully understand you know why we should be. According those opinions wait for example in the controversial case of the the United States and whether or not he can be indicted. Long running commentary on this. While Bob Muller was doing is investigation people would say will just. Because you're too we'll see opinions that say something about this. Yes that's not law that's not a statute that's not a regulation. That's not a supreme court decision. How do you explain to people why? And for what purpose or we'll see the opinions carry any weight. Yes it's very fair question in a very fair concern. I think there's a straightforward answer and the straightforward answer. Is that the President President of the United States when he acts has to make sure that he acts consistent with the law and that means that the executive branch and that means not just the president but all executive branch actors and that means they need to figure out what the law is and so much of the law that's relevant to executive branch practice there's no spring court jurisprudence on so there's no bream court jurisprudence on the question of whether the president can be indicted so it falls to only one actor the executive branch has to figure that out for itself and they've done this. The executive branch has interpreted law for itself going back to the founding. It is something that actually the framers almost certainly contemplated. But there are reasons to worry about it. As I've written in other books or else he tends to interpret presidential power broadly it tends at the margins to protect the president. It tends to have a separate jurisprudence comes from the Supreme Court just a feature of our constitutional landscape and it is what it is but let me just say one more thing in the investigation especially the reason that those those opinions were binding on Muller is because the regulations basically said so and this is what Muller said in his report the regulations basically said and this is the way muller interpreted it that he was bound by O. L. C. opinions because he had to follow the policies and practices of the Department of L. C.. Had ruled on this twice once in the Clinton administration and once I believe leave the Nixon administration or maybe just after and Muller said he was bound by that because that's what the special counsel regulations specified. So that explains why he was bound by these opinions. Now let me say one more thing you know. Citizens don't have to agree with this and it's important to understand this. These are issues that don't come up in court. Their issues on which Congress has a hard hard time legislating so we don't have to just lie down and accept them I. I'm not suggesting that. But there's a very practical need for why the executive branch needs to do this and in the case he was actually legally bound by it. Because there are gaps in one sense. We'll see opinions fill gaps that are not provided for scenarios are not provided for in the constitution or another statute action regulation. Because they don't get litigated. He's that's exactly the point so so much of what I did it. Oh well see was addressing questions that had never come up in court and that frankly could never ever come up in court so in one sense it's a guidance giving exercise you hope where everyone is acting in good faith where the president is acting in good faith and want to good faith advice and in good faith advice of being given. But you've you've read obviously a million alcee opinions you've written Elsie opinions you've criticized. We'll see opinions even while in office and even sought to withdraw alcee the opinions right correct. So they're not the not infallible. They're not infallible anymore than judicial opinions are except there's no review of these causes. I think I was thinking about Supreme Court Decisions Nations I mean a LLC overturning itself or criticizing itself as Ken to the Supreme Court doing so. Because there's no higher authority unless of course an issue oil pines on does come up in court. In which case the judges get the last call I think you you once referred to an LLC opinion maybe even in your book. Because I read lots of sources. So I'm forgetting now and you had an interesting zing description of some kinds of old see opinions which essentially give an advanced pardon for certain kinds of conduct because it is very difficult. Indeed maybe impossible to prosecute someone for action that they have taken in the executive branch relying in good faith on an opinion that's correct that's a feature of our system and it's a lot of people think that's usually problematic matic and it is. It has the danger of course and and some people think this is what happened in the early Bush administration of oil see simply kind of going off the rails rails and writing a blank check for agencies to do anything so it's very important who's in that office it's very important that that office adhere to its processes season. The cultural rules that has developed over the years. I've written a lot about this. Oilseed tends to interpret the law. More broadly for the president just like courts tend to interpret law broadly for themselves. But there is that consequence in the criminal context when the Justice Department through. LLC says that practice lawful and people engage in this then they can't be prosecuted later. The best example of this is with the interrogation memos that were so controversial when Eric holder became attorney general Under Obama and they looked back at the Bush era practices which itself was controversial. They decided right off the bat that they were not even going to investigate. CIA practices that had been approved by the Justice Department. They were only going to investigate practices. That went beyond the opinions. So that's an example of that impact. Let's go back to the killing of of Sulejmani so we talked about Article Co two of the Constitution which is pretty open ended A. We'll see opinions. That do some gap filling but there are other bases of authority that I think the administration has or will rely upon on one of those is the F. A. couple of Ao maps the authorization of use of military force. Dating back to right after nine eleven. Do those provide any basis for justifying the killing of Silla money. I think they do in combination with a self defense power and let me explain what I mean so the first question you have to ask yourself is what our troops doing in Iraq in the first place. Why do we have troops on the ground and troops in the air in Iraq? The basic answer is legally. Is that Congress has authorized them to be there to to use force against al-Qaeda and the Islamic state And this authority traces back to the original nine eleven a. m. f. the nine eleven a. m. f. did not authorize contemplate war against the Islamic state but the Obama Administration interpreted it to extend the Islamic state. Congress has the sense quite self consciously through appropriations approved that interpretation. So there's no doubt the. US forces are lawfully in Iraq pursuant to that a UMF and they've also also received the consent eliminated consent. And I'll get to that later if we're talking about international law elimidate consent from Iraq to be there so the question is and this is where I think the administration's nations justification will be when they get their act together. They've been terrible so far in explaining the legal basis for what they've been doing. I think the argument is simple. And it's been used before for and I want to emphasize before I make just because something is lawful does not mean it's a good idea but the argument is that. US troops are there lawfully. They're engaged in conflict with the Islamic state and other charity organisations and in the course of that presence they've been attacked by forces backed by Iranian militia forces. And it's an an old principle that forces wherever they are when attacked by any entity can use self defense in response to those attacks. That's the principle that the United States is relied on in Iraq and Syria and Somalia to use force against entities. That attacked us once we were there. Even though we weren't in a conflict with those entities so do you think it makes a difference that Sulejmani was killed while he was in Iraq where troops are versus a different scenario in which we tried to target him and kill them while in Iran. I don't think it makes a difference from the domestic law perspective from that. We're just talking about whether Congress has authorized the president's acting lawfully. No I don't think so. It's simply simply a matter of once. You determine that you're acting in Self-defense. I think then you can go after members of the forces that are attacking so monty was alleged to have led this now. I'm assuming coming lots of facts here. I'm assuming that these attacks have been carried out by Iranian forces For a month and indeed for years the United States and Iran has been skirmishing in various places. So that's the main assumption here but if that's the assumption then the argument will be and that the United States was exercising. Its self defense rights but self defense events rights require among other things do they not a finding of imminent threat or can you take an action and justified by self defense when there's no future threat but you were just punishing someone or retaliating against someone for a prior bad act as it. Does there have to be some anticipation of future harm. There doesn't have to be. I can string off the list of precedents. The the bombing in Libya in eighty six in response to Libya's bombing in Germany and the German nightclub Bill Clinton's use of force in Iraq in response to the attempted into this assignation of George H W Bush when there is an attack and you don't need as much of a of an imminence product if if there's a pattern of attacks which has happened in on and moreover the United States has interpreted imminence to be very broad and stretchy concept again going you call it a stretch. Yes yeah and it. Basically the test as articulated by the Obama Administration most most clearly is a multi factor test that takes takes into account a whole bunch of things but one of the things that includes is. Has there been a pattern of attacks before and the idea is if there has been a pattern attacks then you can act in self defense even without evidence of something specific this coming in the near term so let me put this another way imminence in the law at least as interpreted interpreted by the United States does not mean what are ordinary concept of imminence is when the United States for example. I think it was in two thousand. Fourteen used force against an obscure terrorist group in Syria the correspond group. They claim that there was an imminent threat and when they defended this they said well they were planning and we didn't want to get them to get to execution and we weren't sure if it was going to happen in weeks or months or even six months so we have a very stretchy conception of Eminence so given patterns and practices and the am and various other things alcee opinions since nine eleven. Would your analysis different over the question. Be Closer one if you went back in time and we were discussing the same exact strike in nineteen ninety nine. That's a great question. The answer is that there were for precedence on the books going back for example to there was a nineteen ninety eight planned covert operation against Bin Laden and Afghanistan that raise. There's a lot of these questions especially the hard question about whether a targeted killings and assassination and there was a ruling back then bio L. C.. That it's not an assassination if it if if it didn't exercise of self defense but let me extract from that and ask your question a different way. The point going back to ninety eight or ninety nine is a good one because does there have been so many precedents so many actions so many expansions of authorities in the post nine eleven context both con through Congress and especially through executive interpretation tation that written elsewhere. The constraints on executive power under the doctors at the executives developed and the Congress's done not much to push back against against this constraints. Just they're not very powerful. You had a tweet and by the way I should tell listeners that you should follow jackals on twitter during formative instructed us you wrote in the last day or two. When a former administration especially the Obama Administration does the legal analysis and takes the strike and there was no pushback that precedent suffices the next time well elaborate on it? Sure the way it works inside the government generally is. It's a precedent based system. And when you're looking around for in DOD or or CIA you're looking around for authorities to do something which are looking for a precedence precedence incidents that have been upheld and maybe there's an opinion on something that's on point or nearly on point and the Obama Administration came into power after the Bush administration and it was very skeptical. A lot of a lot of the Bush administration legal theories it through a lot of them out but it developed a lot of its own very powerful and robust theories and you know the Obama Administration had a kind of of a Patina of virtue about it. So if you heard the trump administration and you're looking at back at these Obama precedents there like gold. Precedents are always gold in these contexts but especially coming from the Obama administration because they had such an emphasis on law such a heavy emphasis on legal process. US There were a lot of speeches about it has so I just think that In an again this is not quite a point about legality. Appointed how the government operates if. There's a precedent president in the past and especially from another administration from a different context. For what you WANNA do. Then that's powerful support for its legality within the US U. S. context with to Bin Laden and by daddy versus Sulamani. I guess one difference in their characteristics is that notwithstanding the fact that people referring Sumani correctly and in good faith as terrorists and responsible for a lot of bad things. I don't think anyone said anything. Good about that person and anyone in this country who's unhappy about his death separate from what the consequences will be doesn't make a lot of sense to me but the difference between UBS for example and Baghdadi versus money is that Sulejmani is in fact a government official all of a sovereign state. Forget about the wisdom of it. Because we're separating that out does that affect the legal analysis. I thought about this a lot and I don't think so but I'm not sure I have not been able to figure out a reason why why it should matter. Under the theory that articulated namely if our forces are somewhere for a reason and their attack from another source we we can use force against that source. Whether it's a state actor or a non-state actor this is kind of what we've been doing in Syria. We are there this is in the past I think in the Obama Administration Gratien were training troops there. We have troops on the ground supporting those troops. Those forces get attacked by Syrian forces. And we use force in self-defence against state actors Syrian enforces. Does that mean then by that logic can donald trump at any moment decide to launch a strike against the supreme leader of Iran. I mean I think on the same logic. The answer's Yes and that's I understand. I understand just to be clear again. You said a few times but we should say once more one more time time. There's lots of things that are lawful. You can legal argument for that would be a bad idea. Perhaps maybe even a catastrophic idea do but as a matter of of legal reasoning using we could launch a strike against the supreme. I wrote it. Yes but I want to really emphasize the distinction I've made twice now I'm talking about. US understandings of the law and US presidents. And and really what we're seeing now what we're seeing with Donald Trump using force here in a very different and much higher stakes context then. The past president is certainly Obama. Did is something that a lot of people warned about under Obama. They when they are developing these precedents about target killing and these understandings about self defense. And I'm William Unable and using force to protect forces that were in another country when they're attacked by a third party all these principles and precedents that were developed talked a lot of people warned in the hands of a president who is less scrupulous can lead to disaster and I've been waiting and waiting for Donald Trump for his impetuous nece to extend to The commander in chief discretion to use military force and he's got a lot of running room given the US precedence that have developed the last twelve. Fifteen years I don't think that's a good thing. The expansion of these precedents have been worse to me for especially the mastic law precedents. But the that's where we are and there's plenty of US law to support what she's doing so on this question of nation which I see a lot of people on TV talking about which is not necessarily a legal term of art in the authorities that we've been talking about as I understand it. There has been for some time a policy adopted by these ECO branch to not not engage in quote unquote assassination. Was this assignation not on the executive branches. Understanding that policy goes back to the seventies and the church committee and the CIA as assassination adventures in the sixties and fifties and to stave off a statute. That you that would have prohibited. Assassination Gerald Ford put a prohibition on the use of assassination by the US government. But the question is what is an assassination. Yeah what does that. What does that prevent? It did not clearly what that so I think. Again there's no sacrosanct or settled definition. I think the core idea is that you don't kill leaders of other countries for political reasons and in peacetime and that builds up to the exception that I'm about to tell you about and it dries it had a prehistory but it really had. Its it's the most important interpretation from nineteen ninety eight again. This is pre nine eleven precedent. And this is all what I'm about to tell you all discussed in the nine eleven commission report. There was a covert action approved by the Clinton administration to capture and if necessary kill bin Laden in Afghanistan in Nineteen Ninety eight and their lawyer struggled with the question whether that would be an assassination. Just to go in there and kill this guy and the lawyers concluded in a memorandum that oils he was involved. It may have written it. I'm not sure the lawyers concluded that if you're acting in self-defence then you're not committing assassinations. Not Political it's military whether that's right or wrong that's been the US understanding for many decades. Now it's sorta seems quaint. Now you know nine eleven that Bin Laden even at that point three years before nine nine eleven had engaged in terrorism and caused suffering and loss of human life. That was a real legal debate. Kind of odd. It wasn't but it was a the nine eleven commission commission. I spent a couple of pages on the hand wringing that that Whenever that that issue again as as Bobby Chesney pointed out to me in a tweet yesterday a it actually goes back to the nineteen eighties and intimate interpretations in the in the nineteen eighties? That made that same legal move. But that's the definition that's been given two assassination summation I mean. I'm just wondering also on the broad legal theory that you've sketched out. If the United States has some intelligence based reason to believe that some state the May eight maybe hostile to the United States is on the verge of developing nuclear weapons. Then everything's fair game with respect to the leaders of that country I mean it would depend upon the imminence of the threat right. But you're pushing me into a bunch of scary you're pushing me into a bunch of scary hypotheticals and I'm quite happy to go there. Don't do this class I do. And I'm happy to say based ASED on again on the practices and precedents established in the last twenty years and even going back further it would really depend on what the nature of the threat was and what the nature of the build up was us. But there's no elsie precedent written in two thousand and two in the George W Bush administration that it was not withdrawn by either the Bush administration or the Obama Administration that basically justifies the use of force in Iraq without Congressional authorization consistent with international law in the face of the the threat of development of weapons of mass destruction. So we've already crossed that Rubicon in terms of oil C- of in a lot of people think that's a bad opinion it's not the most rigorous. Oh Elsie opinion ever written but I think we should just step back and say that is a bigger lesson here and the bigger lesson is the law permits the president of the United States to do all sorts of horrible all unthinkable. Things that he shouldn't do and that presidents normally would never think about doing. We've always assumed that there's a modicum of and has BENEFA- assumption there reasonableness and self-discipline listening to experts and the like in our presidents and these precedents are frankly quite scarier here under President trump who doesn't pay he necessarily experts who his impetuous and mercurial who seems vengeful who seems very reactive active. So it's it's the law's not gonNA save us here so that leads me to my question here. I know that you don't WanNa talk about the wisdom of the actions being taken we're talking about the law is it's actually. Don't have an informed view about that but what about your view of the wisdom of the state of the law as it stands now. I know you're saying the law is not going to save us. Because of what the landscape has become is. Is that a good thing. Should there be in future in future years much greater constraint. Yes little plug from next book. I'm writing a book with Bob. Our with with Obama's White House counsel and writing a book former guest of the show. Oh great we're writing a book called after trump and we have a chapter on more powers and we have a chapter on these very issues. Because because I'm a believer in robust executive power to defend the country period. But I do think that the precedence and the practices have gotten gotten out of control and I want to really underscore that. There's another institution here. That is Congress that has gone along with this. They've not only acquiesced in the face uh of this growing presidential power and these growing residents and the expansion of this kind of below the radar screen war around the world. They've actually kind of on the sly. Hi approved it. There was a lot of hand wringing when President Obama extended the AMF to the Islamic State. But the fact is that Congress has consistently appropriated in support of that war ever since that legally suffices. So the real question here. This is not going to happen from the executive branch constraining. The president will happen one of two ways. Electing a president who feels is that the United States should be more constrained and then a congress. That's going to stand up and exercises constitutional responsibilities. Both of those things are easier said than done but the answer to your question is yes. I do think we're basically at a point where there aren't a lot of things. This is going to be remarkable statement but there aren't a lot of things folks that I can imagine a president realistically wanting to do either in the national defense or for regional security or to promote American interests militarily that I would have a hard time writing elsie of anything about the president's are very very permissive. It's like a lot of other contexts. We give a lot of authority to certain kinds of people we do that for prosecutors and certainly would do that with the president of the United States rely on the electorate to make sure that you put in those positions people who will observe rationality and acting good faith an exercise. Wise judge exactly. I couldn't agree more and I think one of the top of the list of the things that we've learned about. The trump presidency is the importance importance of that assumption. It's absolutely it's so much more important than I realized or that anyone realized it was kind of invisible because it wasn't really challenge because wasn't tested did it wasn't nobody went to the break. I guess one way to wrap up this discussion between two lawyers who are going through what the landscape is and what the president's are you're is. How much does this even matter? You know I I think someone said on social media over the weekend you know all these folks were complaining that this was a violation of law or this rule rule was transgressed are missing the point that I don't WanNa put words. Your mouth is as me speaking in paraphrasing the person on the on the Internet. The real story here is that you have an out of control. President didn't who may not be fit for the job and that's where the debate should be taking place not on whether particular protocols or oil see opinion phrases have been violated. I couldn't agree more with that. We always tend. The lawyers tend to nominate these discussions and they tend to yell back and forth about it is legal L. It is legal. It isn't isn't legal and that's just practically irrelevant to what's actually happening. And what the real dangerous and I have to say. With regard to trump trump of all the things all the norms he's broken and all the institutions attacked. This is the most worse than thing he's done. I mean using force here in in a seemingly emily impetuous way at least the early news reports suggest his followup threats to commit war crimes against Iran his follow up threats against Iraq. These are all things that technically fall within the discretion of the commander in chief but their outlandish things that no commander in chief should be doing and the focus needs needs to be on. I think on the rightness wrongness what the president's doing and how to change that you mentioned war crimes. I presume you're talking about what everyone has has been discussing. Donald Trump's tweet where he's existed that they would be fifty two sites that have been designated for retention in among them. There would be sites that are important culturally truly to Iran. That's one more crime that he's threatened another one. Is I think in one tweet. He said that if they use force against us we would use force back and it wouldn't and be proportionate in other words a core requirement of the laws of war proportionate use of force. He said quite clearly. We wouldn't do that now. I have to say EH. I seriously doubt I would be very surprised if the Defense Department would follow either of those orders. I think you would see massive. Push back and resignations before that happened. I don't expect that to happen like all that. All that pushback. We've seen so far we've seen a lot of pushback. There's been I think the I think. The trump one of the the most remarkable things about the trump administration is the extent to which people ignore him in the executive branch. Long List the volume two of the Muller report it was all about trump's loyal confidants not carrying out his obstruction of justice wishes. But they did listen to him on Sulejmani. If you believe the reporting it has been suggested that that military officials like they sometimes do put a wide spectrum of choices on the menu for a president and sometimes they put the most outlandish ones on there as well to make the more modern are at ones seem even more palatable. Do you buy that. And if that's so was a mistake with this. President put certain options on the menu. I found that to be hugely surprising. Yes can you give a menu of options but when you were talking about a strike of this significance in a president like this you should not offer options unless so you thought that they were within the realm of acceptable reasonable options. And this idea there's been reported in the New York Times that the DOD offered this option but didn't expect him to take it. I really am not sure if that's true and if it is it speaks very badly for the people who put that option on the table. Well because here's the funny thing that happens. Not just in this instance and this example that I'm putting to you but also in all sorts of other ones everyone else's acting like the world is the same and the president is a normal president so people like Madison and others who are adhering into the principle that before military official doesn't speak badly or divulge information about his time in service and conversations with the president and that presence don't take the most outlandish option and maybe a lot of the people around the president who are in government having adjusted their behavior. They're still during two norms when they have a president who does not and so maybe the folks around the president need to change radically. Is that fair. Maybe I I don't even know how to begin to understand working in the trump administration especially in the White House. I mean I think we've seen two sets of reactions. Clearly some people and you've seen stories like this coming out of the White House and books have been written about this about the extent to which his subordinates ordinance and we've seen examples his subordinates in the White House and in the agencies just ignored him or deflected his request and the like on the other hand. You see people people who are You know seeking curry favor. And who were carrying out his wishes. And that's what you're supposed to do in a traditional administration and it's a tough call if you're working for president and you stay in office and you don't resign what your job is supposed to listen to him and carry out his wishes. He supposed to try to deflect them and and in the name of some higher good that has dangerous consequences as well. Can we talk about the war powers. Act For a minute. Sure so I I believe it's your view as if you have a lot of folks even if if you didn't like the strike on Sulejmani that it did not implicate the war powers act. Well it correct but I mean implement mature implicate. Well do you believe that the president was required to go the congress before and seek its approval. Lucien no war powers resolution. I mean there's a whole bunch of reasons why the resolution gives the president basically a sixty day window under certain circumstances to use force but more importantly the war powers resolution only kicks in for non authorized wars us and this war I think that the ultimate justification for this is going to be that this was a self-defensive action and authorized war and there was a war powers resolution report. I haven't seen it yet. But there's nothing in the war powers resolution that prevented the strike now. And what about going forward. It's suppose that things with the rhetoric of de Escalation doesn't seem to to be much de escalating that there's another strike tomorrow in a few days later Iran retaliates and then we do another strike and we send more troops in our. Can we end up up in a more traditional war footing without having to go to Congress so it's not clear there elsie precedence that say that if the war is escalating than you have to get congressional authorization now. It's not clear. The extent to which that principle applies if the war is escalating and self defense. But the answer the again let's not focus too much on the law. The answer is the president should definitely go to Congress and their precedence for doing it in both Gulf wars President Bush's both of whom claim they didn't need to go to Congress did go to Congress again the O.. LLC opinions are a little bit all over the map on this question but I will say this the circumstance in which there's the best most powerful argument that the president has to go to Congress to get approval is if it turned into a hot war with lots of threatened losses of life ground forces threats to the nation and the like the higher the temperature the higher the stakes the greater the argument that Congress's authorization people keep talking about what the law requires me. Forget the prudential aspects of this in the same way that people have been complaining that Donald Trump and let all of the gang of eight mill about the strike. And somebody said well we didn't have to tell Senator Schumer's or Nancy Pelosi or other people forgetting that it's in the interests of the president. It's in the the interest of the executive branch to go to Congress and to inform Congress of things why to get their buying and to get their approval because you're going and taking action as a nation and then everyone shares responsibility as invested in the game plan right yes absolutely I mean. There is a consultation requirement under the war powers resolution. I thought you were talking about authorization requirement but the broader point is absolutely true and president. Understand this is that when you when you take the nation into a very dangerous Chris situation it just prudent. It's good for the nation. It's good for the president to get Congress responsible to make Congress be accountable and responsible and by informing them and then that puts Congress on the spot where it often doesn't want to be. That's what a normal president would have done. I think last question on this point we. We didn't talk about International. The national law does that matter and under international law is the strike against the lamantia. Closer question I do think it's a closer question. Under international law. International law does matter. It matters a lot to the Defense Department to do the strike. I believe and this is my effort to figure it out because again the trump administration's not explain explain. What's going on here? I think we have to rely on to concept's that we've been relying on for a while now but that are pretty controversial in international law. One is is that we have the power to use self defense in the country despite their sovereign control over the country if that country is unwilling or unable to check a threat to our nation or troops from that country that's call the unwilling or unable doctrine and then as a going back something similar I said what about article too. We rely very permissive conception of imminence and I think both of those concepts are at play here. So the answer's dancers international law matters but it's not been much of a constraint on presidents in the last Fifteen twenty years again. We've developed precedence. That basically have a lot to shape shape international law to serve our interests the rest of the world sees it quite differently though or many people many nations in the world. All right. Well that was. That was a really helpful discussion. I think for a lot of people including clued me. Let's turn to your book in Hoffa Shadow. So I've known you for a long time. We're not in close contact but I think fair to say that a lot of folks may not appreciate until the book came out your association with Jimmy Hoffa case not you personally but through a relative so let's take the first steps I remind folks. Some of whom are young who Jimmy Hoffa was. So Jimmy Hoffa was the leader of the teamsters union trucker's warehouse workers and others which was the largest union in the nation. Almost a couple of million people in the fifties and sixties. He was the leader of that union. At a time minions were consequential powerful forces in the country he was an outsized public figure. He was hugely terming and charismatic and much beloved by The people though the workers in the Union and he was very power is one of the most powerful people in the country because if control the trucks you control transportation routes and you basically control the economy and the Labor side. Hoffa was a labor hero. He was a working class hero. He brought hundreds hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people into the middle class and he was much beloved. That's the one side of Jimmy Hoffa at the same time. Hoffa was corrupt by any any standard. He broke the law a lot. He paid off politicians and judges. He gave out loans from the teamsters pension fund and took a bit for himself here and there air quite a lot actually and he was always being chased by the law and especially by Bobby Kennedy and so he finally went to jail Kennedy Eddie finally nailed him and he went to jail and sixty seven and he came out of jail in one thousand nine hundred ninety one Against Tiller very prominent public figure and and it wouldn't during his efforts to win back control reunion in the years after he got out of jail he became increasingly threatening towards the mob about revealing their ties. Hi to the teamsters. If he couldn't get control of the Union and then very famously. Very mysteriously on the afternoon of July Thirtieth nineteen seventy five. He he was in a parking lot outside a suburban Detroit restaurant waiting for a meeting with few mobsters and he disappeared and nobody knows what happened open to him. You see you can read a lot of books and see a lot of movies but I can tell you based on my research and talking to a lot of FBI agents. There's not a single thread of evidence about what happened to him that day. Direct evidence although there's been speculation for decades speculation going back to the week of the disappearance forty four years. So there's been one person who has been labeled as the suspect involved in the disappearance slash murder of Jimmy Hoffa and that person is who that person happens to be my stepfather. A man named Charles Else Chuckie. O'Brien my mother married Chucky six weeks before Hoffa disappeared. I was twelve years old. We were living in West Memphis Arkansas and I known contract for three or four months and I had come to revere him and I continued to revere him after the disappearance but basically six weeks after my mom married him he was in in Detroit packing up his belongings. Because we were moving to Florida Hoffa disappeared. I should say that Chucky was Hoffa's closest aide for about two and a half decades. He met off when he was nine years old and the men were practically inseparable for decades and then about a week or ten days about a week after the disappearance unstuck. You became really leading. Suspect the person that the FBI focused on primarily as the person that they believed picked up off of that afternoon at the Marcus Red Box and drove him to his death. Positive for second HAFA disappears. Nine hundred seventy five your mother and your father married just a few weeks before that Judah seventy ninety five year old twelve and what's your what's your memory of hearing about the disappearance of Hoffa and how that affected your family it. It was So I I have actually Fishing on a lake in Arkansan came home and my grandmother said that I just heard on the news that Taufa disappeared. That was the first time I've ever heard his name mentioned but basically after my stepfather became the main suspect. I mean unless you're fifty I five or sixty years old or older. You don't remember but the Hoffa disappearance was complete circus. It was a national sensation. front-page news for weeks. Six led the evening news every night it was a massive one of the biggest FBI investigations ever and all of this a lot of it centered on my stepfather. So there was it was our lives turned into basically a circus Because of the pressures of the investigation because of all the reporters Things like like that it was it was wild and not very pleasant and did you form view of the guilt or innocence of your stepfather when you were a kid. When I was a teenager I I was extremely close to and loyal to Chucky and he was really as a write about in my book? He was really an extraordinary father at a time. When I never had a male figure in my my life he gave me all sorts of love and attention that I never had and It really was just kind of rock in my life at a very important time in my life and not surprisingly I guess I kind of accepted his worldview. I I love the teamsters and thought they were a great organization was very close with a bunch of mobsters. Famous mobsters That he was friends with and indeed leading suspects themselves in the office appearance I kind of accepted his worldview about the mob not existing or not being with the government said it was and I never really believed that he was involved in the killing despite the circumstantial evidence against him one because he was my stepfather and I loved him but to the way he talked about Hoffa. When I was thinking about when I was a teenager I had different views? Later the way he talked about Hoffa in such reverential reverential and loving terms Hoffa was really like a father to him. Many people thought he was his office. Illegitimate son they were so close that I never really believed he could be involved in killing him. At least that's not. That's what I thought at the time but then you didn't as you write in the book in very personal terms you didn't at least for awhile. Remain close to Chucky your stepfather. Not Not only did I not remain close to I basically cut him out of my life for about twenty years wiser so what I just described with my attitude towards check in high school I went to college and in college I started to see Chucky in a different light I started to basically I started. Arena some books about the Hoffa disappearance thinking about it. It turned out the Mafia did exist. It turned out that my uncles. Tony Tony Tony Province. Zano were famously. Violent violent gangsters. It turned out that my stepfather had a criminal path that I wasn't fully aware of for a whole bunch of reasons. I became worried about that association. I also became an about to tell you. I'm not proud of but it's true. I kind of became embarrassed by Chucky. I used to revel in his union identity and is kind of Malapropisms and I I I just love the way he was and he he's genuine. He's an American original but when he came to college he kind of embarrassed me with my professors and anyway for a whole bunch of reasons I grew distant from him and I basically decided for career reasons that it would be terrible to have an association with him and I basically broke with them when when I was in law school and didn't speak to twenty years. Did you have a conversation with him or did you just sort of. Did you ghost him as the young kids say I it happened over time time. The first indication was the week after I graduated from college. My name was Jack. O'Brien at the time. Because he adopted me when I was thirteen I was Jack. O'Brien in college college and the first move in the direction I just described was the week after college to Change My name back to Jack Goldsmith which name I was born with and I wrote Chucky. Lucky a father's Day card in June of I guess it would have been nineteen eighty-four basically telling him that I was. I told him on the phone but explaining to him that I was going to change my name. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way. Still love him he was still a great father and the like but it was devastating to him and he wrote me back. A devastating ten pays letter which I reproduced in the book explaining how much it had heard him and So that was the beginnings and then over time I just stopped talking to him stopped venturing the phone and then I just kind of developed a policy of not talking to him and I didn't. I didn't go visit my mom and he was there. Just basically cut him out of my completely. You make a lot of I think heartfelt and personal admissions including referring to I think what you say is quote your own selfish selfish careerism because you decided on a career in the law and then ultimately going to the Justice Department and did that make you more concerned about association for those reasons. Well the association was does something of a hurdle is you can imagine everyone's GonNa ask. This is a little bit inside baseball but when I'm read it when I'm reading the book I'm thinking how did you fill out the SF eighty six well The first time I did so this is the form to when you're getting a security clearance the first time I filled it out. I was kind of naive. It was just after law school. I was in a clerkship with Jay Wilkinson the fourth circuit ahead A to get clearance for case I was assigned to fill out the form and they ask you for your aliases and for your stepfather's in likes listed. I told them my name is Jack. O'Brien for certain number of years in that. My stepfather was Charles. O'Brien I didn't say that. He was the leading suspect in the Hoffa disappearance which also does not for people that the individuals who do the vetting and do the background check or actually in the FBI. Yeah so the FBI gets this form. I actually got a privacy act request and found on their deliberations about it and actually set off a small alarm in the FBI and they sent down to organize. I don't know if it was an alarm or an opportunity. I mean but they sent down to organized crime investigators who I spent a rough day with asking me about everything I knew about chucky. Everything I knew about all the gangsters that I knew what my attitude toward them were and the like and basically and again I reproduced this in the book too. Because there's a summary of what I said I basically toss jockey. DOC ended the bus pretty thoroughly and I got the clearance. And that's basically what happened every step of the way until I got the most difficult and high high-level security clearance working in the office of Legal Counsel. Surprise as you think back that you got the security clearance I don't fully understand what they're looking for. I can tell you what the what the document said. The document said at least the ones that I got my hands on that this kid has separated himself entirely from this man and everything else we know about him suggests that he's not under his influence and doesn't have any relationship with them and therefore we don't think he's a threat for black male or any gather kind of threat and therefore we think that this should be no bar to him getting a security clearance. I had to tell you and I was being vetted to be the head of the office legal counsel in the White House and they always ask you that question at the the end. Is there anything in your background that might embarrass you or the President during your confirmation proceedings and I mentioned that well not unless you think that my stepfather being the leading suspect the half of the spirits we get in the way that caused Everyone's eyes divulge but it didn't get away by that point because I had so clearly distinguished myself from him but it's sort what a fascinating to me on a personal level that part of the reason you you were able to get over the hurdle is you separate yourself from him and I take it from the book and today you're not so proud of that and ultimately reconciled reconciled and then you wrote this book and had lots and lots I wanna I wanna ask you about that and this book is a bit of a product of lots and lots of conversations and more recent times with your stepfather. So how do you feel about the decision to separate yourself from him so totally now. Because had you not done that that maybe your career path would have been different. I wonder how you think about that today. I can tell you very clearly how I think about it. I don't admire what I did. There are a lot of ways I could have handled differently. I didn't know what my career is going to be like. I only had a very dim sense of what law school was about. And what legal you know working in the government was about. I wasn't even sure I wanted to work for the government. I just knew that the association wasn't GonNa help my career career but there's no doubt that some of the most important things I did in my legal career only made possible because of the separation but and I opened the book with this. You know once I got to this exalted position at the head of the office of Legal Counsel. It turned out the first of all I stumbled upon an old when I was working on the stellar wind case I stumbled upon an old decision in which chucky had actually won a case in the Supreme Court and one occasion the Supreme Court because the government had been illegally surveilling him and this was shocking to me. Because he'd always told me about this but I didn't really believe him and he'd always complained about illegal government surveillance how the government could cut corners and secret even when they were enforcing the August others and Lo and behold there I am And the Justice Department working under surveillance case and it turns out and that was deeply legally problematic so that was the event. Went that route chucky back into my consciousness and led me to begin to rethink him and over the next year for all bunch of reasons that I described in the book. I came to think doc that what I had done was wrong. Done to him was wrong for a whole bunch of reasons and so I saw his forgiveness One night in two thousand five and Two thousand four actually and when I saw him again for the first time really maybe the second time and he completely exempted me back into his life without question he was just wonderful full about it and then we grew close again. We were very close in the teenager. And then we grew very close again. After that moment we talked a lot about the holidays over the next years in his life and at some point I became convinced that he had been falsely accused of the crime again. I didn't have all the information I had by the time I finished the book. Although he was never formally accused of the crime while he was he was not formally accused in an indictment. He was formally accused in an affidavit to sees a car as being the person in who picked up Hoffa and kidnapped him and through leaks over the decades He was definitely accused by the FBI through leaks of internal documents and internal theories series usually non attributed federal government sources. But he's been from the very beginning and this has been conventional wisdom not questioned by anyone repeated in every book and most articles articles about the Hoffa disappearance as the person who picked up for that day and drove him to his death. So Y when you set out to write this book. What was your purpose? I guess another way of asking. That is how you describe what this book is. Well I can tell you how it started when my purpose was then it grew into something much bigger so my purpose was just fairly narrow and I said this to him him when I asked him to. Do you want me to write a book. When he was telling me all these stories about him and Hoffa they're really interesting? When I became convinced that there were that he might not have done what he was accused of? I basically said why. Don't you let me write a book about this. I can give you a much fair shake than history has given you. And that's what I set out to do to basically look at the evidence against him to try to give an objective account of Hoffa disappearance which has never been done. Frankly there are a lot of books about it. But they're all basically fiction. They all repeat the early theory of the FBI right which has been basically repudiated within the FBI. That was my original goal. So do the deepest dive possible into what actually happened. I interviewed every FBI agent. That's worked at work. The case became friends with many of them. I looked at hundreds of thousands of pages of internal government documents. Was it easier in some ways to get access to documents into people because of your former career in the justice. There's no doubt that it was. And that's that's another irony. I blew off Chucky and that enabled me to get to the top job in the Justice Department. I got to the top job and realized when I was there maybe chucky was right now is too harsh on him and then it was frankly it was my. I think it had a lot to do my Justice Department job gave me the FBI. Took me more seriously. I was able to get documents from people the fact that I'd written that book. The terror presidency. There's no doubt that I think doc that my career in the Justice Department led these people to talk to me. Yes and what else did the book become. So it started off as a as a book to clear his name and then he turned turned into a whole bunch of things. It turned in first of all to kind of a reflection on father son relationships because I went through various stages with Chucky I was Disloyal to him I think and he maintained his loyalty to me but we had a lot of ups and downs as fathers and sons and he had a lot of ups and downs as has a son with his two fathers. Jimmy Hoffa Anthony Jack. Loney so it's really the whole book. Weaves in and out of these very different bothersome relationships in the lessons learned about them. It also turned into a book about the origins of the surveillance. State which Chucky in Hoffa were very much involved in back in the fifties and sixties. It's a book about the rise of labor and the mob and then their decline and they both went hand in hand both the rise in the decline it's got a chapter about Nixon in his machinations in releasing Hoffa and some Watergate light corruption that he was involved in my investigations took me in a whole bunch of directions but the main thing I wanted to do and I believe I succeeded is to show that it's almost certain chucky wasn't involved in the disappearance I have lots of B. is on the record saying that that's the current. FBI was was that he was not involved. They have different theory now. That they haven't told the world about lots of circumstantial evidence that he wasn't involved. The circumstantial case against him fell apart. And so the main thing I set out to do is what I think achieved about as well as I could but then as I say these other things happened along the way what chuck you think of the book. He went through various stages of the book but by the end so he he. He doesn't understand the need for. He sees books about Hoffa over the decades ads and they for him as far as he's concerned they're all fictional. They're all just made up stuff because they say stuff that's not that he knows isn't true and he sees people reading this and talking about it and treating it as true so he doesn't understand my need is an author to be credible and so he didn't understand why I had to tell the truth about him about certain things you didn't want me to tell about or why I had to tell the truth about me about certain things. I didn't want to tell him out so he was skeptical. Not Terribly pleased about that but I have to say since the book has come out he has been enormously gratified in Berry Thankful. He called me. a couple of days after the book was published and he said he had been avoiding reading it and he read the book. He said he read it three times. And he's not an emotional guy. He's a tough guy and he was in tears and he said to me he doesn't know how I did it how I figured out all the stuff. He apologized for being so difficult with me because he deflected a lot of my questions had lots of commitments to America that he tried to negotiate while talking to me and biomonitoring vow of silence silence and so there he you told me a whole bunch of things about organized crime and his relationship with people and then there's some things you didn't tell me and didn't want to tell me and this was a constant presence in our conversations nations which is again a constant theme in the book. How much can you tell me? How much is he telling me the truth? And the like. But in any event he was basically enormously gratified by the book in a way that really really and the book was about. That's all I wanted. I just wanted a lot of this book was kind of me trying to make up for what I'd done to him for twenty a years worth my effort to you know. Do something for him to make up for what I had done to him. That was bad and when he had the end expressed in in ways. That are hard to describe how emotional and powerful it was enormous thankfulness for it. It just made me very happy. And it's what the book was about so I consider it a success. It's just on that ground was the hardest you've written. This is your fifth or sixth additives. My fifth or sixth or something like that and yes by you've written so many you can't keep count the take me one two three book The hardest one. Oh by far I mean. Most of my other books took about a year to write. Because I knew what I was talking about and this one took seven years. There's two right because it's hard to exaggerate how much misinformation and falsehoods around the office appearance. And I had to wade through all all these documents. I've talked to Chucky for many many hundreds of hours about everything I can think of. I interviewed everybody that was involved and learn about the history of the mob and the history of labor history of the surveillance state which I didn't know all about there's just a whole bunch of learning that went into the book and a lot of research and then a lot of time trying to figure out the truth and then on top of that trying to write a story. It's a complicated story and trying to make it accessible. That all took some time. It's page turning which you don't often expect from a law professor. Thank you As anything about the process of researching writing this book change the way you think about teaching. It changes the way I think not about teaching but about It's furthered my belief. That right about writing and namely I become for a whole bunch of reasons increasingly of the view that writing being especially about technical legal issues and heart issues should be more accessible. Lawyers tend to write in turgid prose that tend not to tell stories that to not do appreciate the power of stories the tend not to think enough about audience understanding. It definitely changed it. Furthered my belief about what type of writing is good writing. Some of my substance abuse about things changed. I'm more cynical than ever which is not to say I'm completely cynical but more more cynical than it used to be about. Law Enforcement and government process. He chucky was really given an unfair turn over the course of his forty years. Maybe think more of labor unions news than I used to rethought quite a few things. What about the personal aspects of what I find wonderful about the book is that it is very personal? There's illegal illegal whodunnit aspect to it and a discussion of law and law enforcement which is always near and dear to my heart but you talk a lot about yourself and does it. Perception people about folks like academics had a greater story in on the show not too long ago who told some personal stories and wrote a personal peace unlike unlike any of the other things that she had written. And you've done that here. And even though some of the stuff is not rigorous analysis of the law. It tells people something about you and to me when when I read things like that about Jacqueline Smith by Jacqueline Smith it makes me respect understand. And Trust. You're more turgid writing than more does does that make sense. I think it it does I mean let me just say this. I tried to be as truthful and candidates I could about myself and about chucky and I was pretty self of critical and parts of the book and pretty critical of him in parts of the book and I thought that was important for the Times especially when I was trying to make an argument for Chucky in Wia yeah believed him in certain contexts. It's actually very hard to be candid and honest about motivations and ambitions and fears and things like that and I tried to be as candidates I could because I thought the book demanded it so maybe I don't know maybe I tried to be credible. I thought it was very important to be credible. Because you know I'm basically arguing that my stepfather was innocent or something. He's been accused of a forty four years and I'm obviously an interested Party so I I thought it was hugely important for me to be honest. Incredible well I think you were and I think that comes across loud and clear in on every page of the book. Thank you so there was this big. Oh I G Office of Inspector General report that came out in recent weeks that listed among other things a series of errors. That's the word that they used with. Respect to the Pfizer surveillance on sort of Carter page. It also said and sort of top line analysis that Overall the Russia investigation was not opened improperly properly. You have said some things about that investigation that report. What what do you take away from it? Yeah so kind of complicated. I mean it was very discouraging. foraging report to me for the identification of all of the errors and misrepresentations and omissions on the FBI. I side in what has to be one of the most consequential FIS applications ever in one of the biggest FBI cases ever and you know for those of us who have have defended the visor process as rigorous one and one that can be trusted even though it takes place in secret. That report is a body blow so I found it very discouraging on that front I find it unsurprising and correct that the inspector general said the investigation was properly predicated. I don't understand why I. Attorney General Bar and John Durham who's investigating the origins of of the trump. Investigation four bar. I don't understand why they think it wasn't properly predicated. I actually think that's a very important qualifier. I think there's more to come but let me just why in the scope a little bit. I think you know these spectra. General Michael Horowitz has had four reports now related to for long reports and detailed reports mostly focusing on the FBI related to the Hillary Clinton Investigation Nation in two thousand sixteen the trump campaign investigation and some openings of the investigation. Two thousand seventeen the Komi leaks and the like Mike and I think that in the aggregate they paint a picture of the need for reform in the FBI. I don't there's some individual failings that I'm nobody's perfect and in hindsight Any of the work I did in government or the government if it's looked at after the fact and they're pouring through emails and phone calls. It's not hard to paint complicated picture. The main thing that's very important is we need a much better system for investigating campaigns and politicians uh-huh and because the FBI was basically operating with very very little guidance. In this in these respects a lot of the mistakes they made or what looks like mistakes. In retrospect where from a lack of of guidance. And so I think this is a chapter in my book with Bob. There's a real need to rethink. Not just some aspects of is is. We're going to see what he doesn't audit to see if these failures were typical or unusual but really the whole process of opening investigations against politicians in campaigns pains and how they should be conducted. And what the process should be and what the standards should be because the FBI was kind of making it up as they went along based on very general standards that didn't apply to these concrete situations because it doesn't come up that often. Yes it doesn't come up that often. It came up twice weirdly and then how often do you think the president is a mentoring candidate. Never so I don't blame blame them for that. I mean I. I think it was actually probably a mistake is too strong a word but I think it's very fraught to open up counterintelligence investigation on the president as they did based on the view that he was not serving the national interest of the United States because he defines the national interest. But on the other hand you know from the perspective of where the FBI was sitting. It looked like they didn't say this but it seems to me that looked like that. A given all the evidence that was coming in they had a Manchurian. Can't possible Manchurian candidate or something like that in his campaign so it's never come up before actually and I'm afraid going forward that we need to think about these and related issues a lot more carefully and give the FBI a lot better guidance. The problem is and you point this out in some of your writing that on the one hand you want to get people guidance and you WANNA make sure they're reaching the proper thresholds for opening an investigation that proceeding with various tools that law enforcement agents get with required to quarter otherwise. But at the same time you don't want politicians to be able to get away with it. Correct don't WanNA cause law enforcement officials to have undue risk aversion and figure. You know what it's not worth my time all it's going to happen is I'M GONNA get in trouble even though there's good faith basis to believe that this politician maybe all the way up to the president or nominee party has engaged in criminal activity. How do you? How do you balance those concerns? Because they're both real. Yeah it's a it's a great question. There's no general answer and this is a common problem. Woman government and trying to come up with accountability mechanisms and guidance mechanisms that don't unto unduly chiller investigations so I will only say that the FBI needs more guidance the no guidance which is basically what it was operating under a special investigative matters get higher procedural treatment the ladder of the FBI but that's basically all the guidance that was given in these cases for me there's an important evil here to be avoided and that is the kind of the Hoover J. Edgar Hoover Syndrome though the worry that the F. B. is using its extraordinary powers of investigation and surveillance for political ends. That has to be guarded against both in in reality which I actually worry about less than appearance and it seems to me a democracy. That is a very serious problem. Should have a high priority of being avoided. So Oh that's the reason why I think we need to think about more elaborate procedures. More elaborate standards fully realizing that it runs the risk of of not being able to investigate him pursue at the margins. People that maybe should be pursued. I just think that right now the balances out of whack and needs to go in the other direction a little bit. If that makes sense do you have any concern that by adding hoops or other threshold requirements. That it makes it easier for some future. Bad actor bad political appointee easy to stop an investigation. Yes I do I do worry about that. Very very much Bob Our and I wrote an essay in the Atlantic. They're all sorts of of possible mechanisms regarding against this so win. They're just risks in every direction and it's a question of bouncing them in every potential reform has downsizing could be weaponized. And I really don't want to deny that there are ways to deal with these problems. You can have reporting not just to a senior Justice Department official but to senior career official you can have reporting to Congress those run risks in various directions. I mean it's a complicated process that has a lot of balancing but I just think where we've been in the last three or four years cannot be the right place to be. It's just the controversies that have come up that it goes to the heart of our democracy and the FBI's role in investigating getting politics. It's just been a disaster and I'm not blaming that on any individual I just think systemically it hasn't worked and there has to be reform and it may come at the cost to these other things and we have to figure out how to deal with those costs but I do think there are. Ways to mitigate these risks so only go back to the office of Legal Counsel that you had for nine months and we made reference to it at the beginning of the conversation probably the opinion that the American public had never heard of before two opinions. I guess did the American public never heard before and now probably sit in their minds as the two most controversial things ever to come out of that office. Are the conclusions that sitting president of the United States cannot be indicted and binding on. Bob Muller is a point of some contention controversy to anticipate. Maybe this is a subject of one of the chapters in the book. Your wedding with Bob. Our for after trump my recollection is that the first opinion on that point came after Nixon. Listen and the second one came after Clinton do we need to have an. Is it appropriate to have another opinion in review of the body of law within the. Oh we'll see after trump so actually I don't want to be for Bob but I think he and I actually have different views about this. I think that for very practical reasons. Those opinions are probably correct Can get into it if you want. But the basic idea is that it's very hard for the president who controls law enforcement for the country under the constitution to effectively indict himself. And that's what you're talking about and I think that the president it can control that indictment if he wanted exercises executive powers and there is of course another remedy which is impeachment. I don't think there's let me just say I don't think there's a crystal clear obvious. Answer answer from the Constitution about this question but your question was should we rethink it. I think invariably it's going to be rethought. Especially Democrat wins. The election. Several candidates have already said they're basically going to order it to be rethought and I think one said that they were going to order it to be reversed I think that's actually a bad model for our LLC. She should operate. We can't rely on law enforcement to deal with every problem with the presidency. And it's just it's just mechanically very very hard to see how you a you. Indict him prosecutor President while he's in office and again. There's another mechanism for that and it's called impeachment but okay to investigate prevalent office. I think it is. We've had many investigations instigation of presidents while in office. Yes and that again. This raises complications. Too there are no easy answers here because the situation Muller's in is. I think there might be Komo Komo wrongdoing here. I can invite the president so basically he you know collects the evidence and leaves it for another day. Although bar made the determination nations. There were no prosecutable crimes. So again we're talking about design of constitutions in design of accountability systems. Frankly there's never a perfect solution. It's always is a question of mitigating risks at the margins. I think that the the the oil C- Opinion Welby rethought. Eventually whether it will be reversed I don't know it depends on who the president is. It depends on the head of all see as but actually think those opinions but Randy Moss. WHO's an extraordinary legal? Mind head of the office of Legal Counsel now at Federal District Court judge. He was the run wrote the opinion in the Clinton administration he was not a lackey for Bill Clinton. His opinion is very powerful. And it's also very candid about the weaknesses in the arguments and the reasons for it so it wouldn't be my view that we should rethink that. But I think it will be rethought. S- Gecko Smith. You've been very generous with your time. I really appreciate could go on for another couple of hours thank you. It was a good conversation. I appreciate the conversation. Continues for members of the cafe insider community to hear the stay tuned bonus with Jack Smith and get the exclusive weekly cafe insider podcast and other exclusive content head to cafe dot com slash insider. Right now now you can try a cafe. Insider membership free for two weeks at CAFE DOT com slash insider To on the show this week with something that has nothing to do with either Iran or impeachment. It's about a case that we talked about in the cafe inside and I think also on the stay tuned podcast. Some months ago I think last summer involving a person named curtis flowers. Curtis flowers have been charged with killing four people inside a furniture store in Winona Mississippi. Be and the reason we were talking about. Curtis flowers is that his case had taken a long and winding road and had just landed in the Supreme Court because Curtis flowers lawyers claimed that he was treated it unfairly in prior trials and the Supreme Court voted seven to two that the prosecutor in the case the district attorney named Douglas Evans had violated flowers. Constitutional Constitutional Rights. How has he done that? So over. The course of six different trials of Curtis Flowers Doug Evans. The prosecutor struck forty one out of forty forty two potential black jurors at the final trial. Doug Evans asked potential black jurors in average of twenty nine questions each. He asked the eleven wijers. Only an average of a single question. Also notable about the case. Is that the district attorney. Doug Evans himself personally. Tried the cases which is not so ordinary ordinary Supreme Court. As I said ruled in favor of Curtis flowers the justice who wrote the opinion for the majority seven to majority no liberal. It was justice. Breyer Cavanaugh who stated quote the State's relentless determined effort to rid. The jury of black individuals strongly suggests that the state wanted to try flowers before a jury with as few Black Act jurors as possible. And ideally before an all white jury we cannot ignore that history close quote. That's Brad Kavanagh. Now at the time I and I were discussing the case. We're not necessarily optimistic about what the future held. Because the Supreme Court by its decision did not set curtis flowers free it merely really set aside the verdict and said he had to be tried again so we were left with the prospect of the case going back for a seventh time to the same district attorney in Mississippi. Who would again try? The case and at this point and I discussed had lost all claim to being fair and impartial and committed to a fair trial for curtis flowers. And by the way at the same time there's been other Evans aside from the procedural issues relating to the jury suggest maybe curtis flowers was not guilty. Why am I telling you all of this? Well this past Monday Doug Evans. The Mississippi District Attorney asked to be recused from the prosecution of Curtis Flowers. His letter is pretty short. Among other things he wrote quote while I remain both confident in both the investigation the jury verdicts in this matter. I've come to the conclusion that my continued involvement will prevent the families families from obtaining justice and from defendant being held responsible for his actions. Close quote from my perspective. His recused will make it more likely that there will be a fair trial for both if the government and Kurdish flowers. Now some people may argue. What difference does it make that? He recused himself assuming he abide by the refusal which means he cannot oversee the prosecution or the trial. He cannot direct people he cannot make the assignment that there is for all purposes and acting district attorney. who was someone other than himself? They will make independent decisions. I mean hypothetically the next prosecutor assigned to the case even without the involvement of Doug Evans could engage in constitutional misbehavior. But we hope and expect aspect that won't happen given the track record given the Supreme Court's rebuke given public attention. One more note some of the public attention that came to the the case grew out of a podcast produced by American public media called in the dark. During the second season of that podcast released in two thousand eighteen they explored Douglas Evans's pursuit pursuit of the flowers case exam. A lot of issues relating to forensic evidence so who says podcasts don't have power we'll continue to follow the case until you what happened. Well that's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again into my guest Jack Goldsmith. If you like what we do rate and review the show on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen every positive review helps new listeners. Sner find the show. Send me your questions about news. Politics Injustice tweet them to me at eight Berar with the Hashtag ask pre or you can call and leave me a message at six six nine two four seven seven three three eight six six nine two four prete or you can send an email to stay tuned. A CAFE DOT COM. The executive producer. Is Tomorrow Seper. Her senior audio producer is David Tagore and the cafe team is Julia. Doyle Matthew Billy David Kurland Cow Lord and Jeff is our music his by Andrew. Dost I'm pre- Ferrara stay tuned breath.

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