20 Episode results for "Jack Barsky"

285: Jack Barsky | Deep Undercover with a KGB Spy in America Part One

The Jordan Harbinger Show

54:15 min | 10 months ago

285: Jack Barsky | Deep Undercover with a KGB Spy in America Part One

"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger as always. I'm here with producer Jason to Filipo. On the Jordan harbinger injure show we decode the stories. Secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around. I want to help you become a better thinker and see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. If you're new to the show we've got episodes with spies and CEO's in fact this is one of them. Athletes and authors thinkers and performers as well as toolboxes for negotiation public speaking body language persuasion etc.. So look if you're smart and you like to learn and improve approve then you're going to be right at home here with us today on the show. This is one of my favorites. This is from the vault. I recorded it a few years ago. It is a two parter. It is just one of my absolute absolute favorites of all time. Jack Barsky author of deep undercover my secret life and tangled allegiances. KGB'S FI in America. Now you know why I like it right. This is just unbelievable. He's a frigging. KGB's by WHO MOVES TO AMERICA TO SPY ON US and ends up staying here. He's still lives here. The story is bananas he consulted for the TV. Show the Americans. Which of course is one of my favorite shows on TV back when it was on? This story is just insane so from East East Germany where I used to live. He trains in Moscow moves to Canada and eventually slips into the United States. Jack Today on the show is going to get deep into KGB recruiting process the espionage game from the inside out we'll learn how spies were recruited and trained which skills Jack used to assimilate to the united it states and pose as an American and fooling his friends his employer his colleagues even his wife. He's got a frigging family here. They didn't even know and then one day I just can't even get over this. There's so much more to this story. I don't want to spoil it for. Here's part one with Jack. Barsky here on the Jordan Harbinger show and if you want to know. High managed to book all these great people it is about networking it's that KGB spy tactics that networking tactics six-minute networking courses courses free over at Jordan harbinger dot com slash course and by the way most of the guests on the show they subscribe to the course and the newsletter. So come join us and you'll be in great company all right here. We go with Jack. Barsky I'm going to try to be funny because I have a tendency to be quirky. Put Up Front. The only advice I can give young. People is the following it always takes longer and it always costs more so much for trying not to be funny. That's that's great though. I love that apply to whatever you do in life. It's true so far that has been definitely been my experience and I'll tell you what as a former undercover agent agent for the KGB. You've got plenty of ideas on using your feelings to your advantage and also probably ignoring emotions when they are going to take you down a path that you should not go down and trying to stay calm under fire and I know that you consult for the Americans which is one of my favorite shows producer. Jason isn't just caught up as well an extra for episode five ten. I'm standing next to an entrance of a dry cleaners. Outcomes Gorgeous Russian Russian lady as she walks down the street in the put on my best buy located. I'm looking down the road and I follow her and then she stops in talks to some lady who comes out of the Coronell to enforce the best. Now Nice while keep an eye out for that. I love that show and I'm always been obsessed with the Soviet Union that started because I used to live in the former East Germany. Which is where I know you're from and I went to high school there? Oh yeah in Hala Zala no right right. Yeah that's about sixty seventy miles from where I studied chemistry. I know so when I speak German you and I probably have the exact same accent are year from the same area where I learned German ambition. Doing this wall yeah Zakian unhugged autozone us. You know that look. This is super interesting. I've been waiting for this for a long time. I'm very excited about this. I know that just to give a little context. While the allies rebuilt West Germany the Soviet Union effectively looted looted East Germany. Setting it a back about thirty years so when you grew up there was a struggle for survival. You know you had to clear your plate. There was not an food. I guess as we now know where that habit comes from for the United States for all of our eastern European ancestry and things like that. I know that when you're young you mentioned that your mother and your parents were pretty pretty cold. Can you tell us about your childhood because I think it does inform some of the things that happened later in your life. Yeah I reflected a lot about it because the bottom line is when you you think about people would bothers people or what is get sort of in the way of them. Becoming fully developing is usually the baggage they take within from childhood and my baggage was not necessarily all bad was disciplined. It was sort of a citizen in that the extremely long period of the delayed gratification and whether harm was was the lack of emotional love that was just done. I can't remember member any and that was somewhat typical of Germans in post World War Two but not necessarily to the extreme that my parents took it. No my pounds dislike didn't manage to even hug and kiss or say I love you. That just was completely not part of my childhood. Not Having had that you. You don't know you don't know what you're missing. You don't know what you should have had. The took me a long time to get to this partially because of having to reflect on my past partially when I was writing reading the book I was thinking about all this in the light bulb went on. And how I'm sort of making up for this I have a late comer. Six year old child in she gets mother would lawson kissing. I love you because I know it is very important. I think that's extremely important and I think a lot of people would agree that as well and there's story in the book where your stomach hurt and your mom made you take the bus to the hospital which turned out to be an emergency appendectomy so it seems like early on you learned learned to ignore your emotions. You learn to ignore pain. This is just like totally bizarre. When you think about it what normal parent in this day and age would make their fifteen year? Old Teenager walked to the bus. I could walk straight anymore. The pain was bad as you go to the hospital and again again. That was anything that I thought was the wrong thing to do. This was just the way things worm and it wasn't in fact a an emergency appendectomy that it could be performed in the book by the way deep undercover is the tidal my secret life and tangled allegiances as a KGB spy in America for those a who are looking for that will link to that in the show notes. It looks like Your Dad. He bought a vodka Brooke. And I've driven one of those cars. Did you ever get to drive when I actually worked worked for the KGB driven wife got a card with their help that was more of an upscale. There was a Russian may copy of an Italian always cold. A Lotta Never driven you know. This was the best thing you could buy. And those days that a piece of two stroke engine. There's there's a choke inside the car and it fills up with gas fumes. When you start at so you gotTa roll the Windows Down You? You're listening to the vehicle that was most used was the phenomenal trabant. Want Genearal Museum in Berlin these days and well exhibit is one of those things that barely fits like people mice is he. I don't know how four people fitted I burst out laughing. People didn't understand I looked at the label. It has twenty four horses wind. lawnmowers twenty six. That's amazing yeah. I know what you're talking about. You're talking about the checkpoint Charlie Museum in the Trabi trabant you're talking about. They sowed a person into the seat and then the the driver sat on that person and they drove out of East Berlin to smuggle that person out your member that yes you and I need to get together in person. One day Exchange stories. I I would love that. I am totally up for that. Sign me up to. Let's get back to before I get too excited a geeking out on East Germany stuff here. So they erected the Berlin Wall to protect you over there from from the West German Fascist Cetera. And at that point in your childhood you saw a bright future ahead compared to capitalism right. You're thinking wow we have the socialist paradise going on. What's the dialogue in? Your head is a young man. There wasn't a dialogue. There was a monologue. All we ever got was a heavy does of Communist ideology. which as as you know is very appealing to young people? You know the whole idea that we all can live together. Be Nice with each other and make sure that the rich don't get too rich and everything is jointly owned wonderful. This is incredibly appealing to young minds. And since we didn't get any counter argument that stock and that was informally chatting with you about the stickiness of ideology boy. Oh boy the stock with a coke for a long time. It is I- contemporaries of mine even though they got royally screwed by the communist state are still deep down inside their communist. Yeah it seems like in your book again titled Deep On their recover. The school doesn't have any discussion. The truth comes down from the top and that played a part in once you became a spy when she became an operative you have this near Delusional usual confidence and very little emotional attachment which probably comes from your childhood as well as learning and propaganda and things like that and you talk about how this affected some of your early relationships and obviously you brought some of those patterns with you which no matter what anyone might look back. Twenty twenty hindsight sorta shows okay once he joined the communist Communist Party as a brilliant chemist. You got the knock on your door from the mystery. Guy Who still don't know who the heck that is of course they're looking for people like you right. Oh absolutely I mean I was also most inviting Was a standout. I got a national scholarship. I was active in the Communist Youth Movement. I was a member of the party at the time. They recruited me I am a spotless record. And then I fathered a child out of wedlock which by the way in those days. The party didn't like a lot in the normally they would've would've called Read me the riot act. Nothing happened so I was already out removed from the masses quote unquote and I was judged by. We're using a different yardstick. I had joined delete not necessarily knowing it but I know the nine. That's interesting so by the time you're in the KGB. You are already the untouchable to some extent inside the government and we see that in shows like the Americans were there busting people who are doing a bit of a racket at the supermarket in Soviet Russia the woman goes off and goes. You don't understand. This is how the whole country works. You reason you don't see it as because you're in the KGB and the two guys are sitting there that gives them a little bit of pause because they realize oh yeah we kind of do get special treatment. Maybe this is how people survive. Yes I was untouchable was above the law because I broke laws internally earliest well as in other countries. I wasn't courage to do things that you want supposed to do. Like watch Western television I was going to the West right but when I crossed the the border between East Germany and the Soviet Union I was always bypassing customs and Pasco control so I was young. President really feels good. Because I never liked rules. I really you know had a problem as a child and I almost got kicked out of school because I was rebellious until I learned to fit in otherwise you know life wouldn't be so good but when I got the official imprimature to break rules in support of a good 'cause you know it's having a cake and eat it too. which in real life doesn't has not been but for a while I added? Yeah I can see the lure for a young person doing that and when the KGB was recruiting they had you doing profiles on other students and on people. Well what we're those profiles. What are they having profile while the proof typically though what are they like just very general profile? I I strongly believe that this world SORTA exercises for them to determine how well I can judge others the KGB didn't do internal spying on he's trump's In it wasn't really very well targeted. Now when I profile people while in the United States I also had the angle too. Could they be useful to US US being the Soviet Union. And so how could they be recruited such as they have weaknesses they have ideological preferences. They need money they have a drug habit owl any of the oil that stuff when I profiled my fellow students in those days Doug was the early beginnings and and was just like undercover work. WanNa one very very elementary. So they were just trying to see. Yeah how can you read people. Is there some sort of light reconnaissance but that it's it's basically a drive around to see what you can do. They sent you to West Berlin. When you're you grew up in east Germany you're kind of in this era especially post war? Not a lot of things are being rebuilt. There's a lot of propaganda coming down from the top. What was your first impression of West Berlin when you finally were able to go and see it firsthand? I don't know if I wrote that in the book if I didn't Nice should've because I told people on time ago than my first impression was oh wow they got caller and so I would tell people you're not. The West was a movie shotton Colin in the East they only black and white because with immediately hit you was that contrast between the Brown and the gray and all kinds of calls that were visible once you step out of the subway and appeared on Western territory. So it's kind of like going out of black and white movie and into a technicolor. Yeah indeed and that was enemy territory. Now go on ask question that would be. What did you figure out that might be better on the other side? Plus I did. There was a reason because they took all the wealth away from Third World countries. And so. That's why you had poverty in Africa and South America because the evil capitalists such as in England and the United States Franson West Germany. They became rich because they exploited the the rest of the world. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger. Show with our guest. Jack Barsky. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Simplisafe simplisafe now in some states. The week after Christmas sees the heaviest caseload for police break INS Spike every single year during the holidays because families are traveling burglars. No Oh people at expensive stuff lying around. What's crazy is that only one in five homes have home security? That's probably because most companies don't make it easy. It can be difficult to use. It can be difficult to you. Get a contract. That's not longer than you know the lifespan of most your pets. 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And just pack them full of garbage or like dirty diapers poop factory in your house. Perfect I gotTA poop factory and it smells like buttered popcorn so if somebody opens it. They're going to be like ooh this big. It's a dirty diaper. That smells like buttered popcorn. You didn't know about the buttered popcorn thing. You gotTa Google this baby poop from breastfed babies. ABC's smells like buttered popcorn. How interesting and I think that's so you don't throw the babies out? It has to be some kind of evolutionary design. That's right the the more you know so anyway simplisafe makes it easy for you. No contract hidden fees fineprint Jason. Tell them what the deal is visit. SIMPLISAFE DOT com slash Jordan to get a free camera plus simplisafe's holiday savings. This offer is for a limited time. Only and it's ending soon visit simplisafe dot com slash Jordan. Today that simply safe. So I am safe dot com slash Jordan. This episode is also sponsored by skill share. Getting out of the Rut. 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And supporting thing the show and to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard from our amazing sponsors visit Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals. Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episode. So you can make sure are you solidify your understanding of the key takeaways from Jack. Barsky that link is in the show notes that Jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show just go to Jordan harbinger dot com slash subscribe subscribing to. The show is absolutely free. It just means that you get all of the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player. So you don't Mississippi missing thing and now back to our show with Jack Barsky all right so they ship you off to Moscow and they tell you all right you've got to adopt an American mindset. How did they instruct you how to do this? I cannot imagine how difficult it must have been to be like. Hey you need to learn as much as you can about becoming American but you can't go to America yet you gotta do it in Soviet Russia yacht well Soviet Russia was because in East Germany. They did not have a trusted individual. A who could teach me the American brand English so that was the primary driver for two years. I studied my ass off. I study hard when I said the interview on sixty minutes I learned one hundred new words every day. I can state that with confidence because I always counted the my entire life and ahead assistant by which I knew exactly how many words came in. And how many what's came out. It was really honored words a day so I became quite fluent in American English. What my my preparation with regard to American culture was almost nonexistent? And there's a good reason for that. The folks that I work with the war original Americans had come to I live in Moscow remembered. Only things that were like twenty thirty years old and the folks that thought they knew about American spies the resident the agents who worked for the United Nation or the Soviet Embassy. They thought they knew American society but they looked at it like he look at fish from the outside you look at the fish as an outsider and they tried to teach me how to be fish added. was that effective. It seems like it would be so hard. You sure you could learn English English but how you GONNA learn mannerisms. It reminds me of the movie. Die Hard I don't know if you'll remember this but those German terrorists have taken over the building. In the way that Bruce Willis knows they're the bad guys says he says yeah. It's raining like dogs and cats instead of cats and dogs and that that's how he knows there the foreign guys because he gets that idiom wrong how would you get these nuances correct. Herat enough to fool people. I very carefully very slowly. I didn't know what I didn't know with regard to how to be an American so oh I was lucky enough that my first two years in this country I had no exposure to bright inquisitive individuals. I worked as a Bike Messenger. Her and I was able to observe from a distance without being caught. I give you a funny episode. That occurred to me just the other day. This is how you so easily can betray that. You're not what you claim to be in terms of nationality sometime later in life I joined a bunch of young kids playing soccer and I was already I think they late forties possibly even fifty and I killed them now. Hog ahead somebody who was born in nineteen forty in the United States. Wouldn't know what to do with the soccer bowl ring and you just doing circles around these young guys because you grew up playing soccer in Europe for you bet so. There's a lot of things that can trip you up you. Are you not aware of what they told me. Back in Russia. Make sure that you never it with your knife. Enforce the knife in the right hand in the focus of left. Cut your meat. Need than take the fork and then just eight with four that sort of out the window nowadays but that was the extent to which I learned American culture not not. That's really funny. I used to get in trouble in East Germany for the way that I ate as well. Even I'm left handed so I use the fork and left hand the fact that I use the knife and put it down on and everything my family was like. Did you grow up on a farm and I said no ride and they were like No reason just curious 'cause they just thought this guy. He doesn't even know how to use silverware over. Where what a Weirdo? But of course very American of me that was always a dead giveaway of course along with my strong American accent when I'm speaking German. There's a great the story in the book as well about your mother coming to visit because of course she thinks you're working for the space program in the Soviet Union. And you've got put on this facade. Would you mind telling us that story okay. Though the space program came later so at when she came to visit I was a low level employee of the eastern embassy as far as she knew it was has to cover by and in a we panicked because she wasn't supposed to meet me anywhere so she went as part of a tourist group and she had two days is a Moscow so we came up with great idea. I was living at the time eight conspiratorial apartment. She was not supposed to know about it so they put me up in a hotel on the cover that my apartment was being renovated and then we decided One of my handlers would come as as a friend and we would just like. My mother had heart than husband with her. We would just like inundate them with sites and things to see an can you know. Make sure that they couldn't even get their head up in this kind of questions before you were gone so that went really well. The only thing that really became a problem is when mom Tom said. Why don't we take a picture with you and set a gay? who was my friend right but he was a handler at my God? I looked at the corner of my eyes I saw Sergei wins because KGB employees warned supposed to have their picture taken but he couldn't say no so. The only picture that I have. And I think it wound up in the book with me. Her Sergei where the picture was taken by her husband so somewhere in Soviet Russia. Someone's going holy crap. There's a picture of my dad with this guy says he's a KGB spy. My Dad worked at a shoe factory. What's this doing in there? That's a possibility. Love the guy. I wish I could meet him again. I wonder what happened to him. He was genuinely Nice Person. Just like me you know. He had bought into the ideology Hook Line and sinker. I wonder what happened to him because it was so much easier for me to shed shedding baggage. Because I lived here I was able to gradually move away from the nonsense that I was taught in my youth but to people like him it was like boom Soviet Union. Yeah No more Communist Party yet fringe party and what we've got now is an oligarchy. which is not any better than before but the whole ideology is gone? The filler should still be alive wondering what happened to him. I wonder if any of the sort of fellow spy espionage geeks listening to this. have any idea how to get a hold hold of people who used to be in those nieces. Because there's who knows there's probably some clubs in the former Soviet Union especially Russia where old. KGB guys hang out and drink beer until war stories reason who knows. I mean if they know that that is in the book they might be able to say is in this very very possible. The guy's still around. I mean he's probably just your age is my age. A secret ended anonymous. Maybe they exist now. I have not been contacted. The thing is that we know one another only by first name and I would like to add that was very strong likelihood that the first name was phony now he knew my first name but I don't know if I know his first name wasn't a cover name I was introduced was too many many other folks were indicated he'd be on the my one of my covenant which was Bruno and my official cover name by which might the records. Let's were kept was Dita D. I.. E. T. E. R.. So figure out when somebody says my name is so and so easy okay. What my name is that and then you? Let's go on because it doesn't matter right. So of course Sergei just basically the name John in Russian essentially so common that it would be impossible to pull it also of course. I'm sure you're right. That probably was a fake name in some way. Now when you're when you're learning to be an espionage undercover agent here you're had a lot of counter surveillance training drills. Tell us about how you were trained. It seems like they were chasing me through town and things like that super interesting. Yeah I mean this is what people think about espionage. What is like to work on the cover? This is as close to how it's portrayed in the media as possible. Even though what you see in the media is just like falls in its execution and I guarantee you even nowadays if somebody wants to know whether they're being observed being followed. They need to do what I did. Because because there are not enough cameras in the world yet that can be marshalled to follow somebody to know what they're doing. It took phenomenal amount of time for me just to find the right places places to visit the right route through Moscow to determine what I was being followed every month I had one exercise. Where like on a Sega evening before for the second would call me and says tomorrow nine o'clock to go so then I leave my apartment and I go on a three hour trip for town bound? You know visit all kinds of public places shocks possibly a museum by a ticket at a theater new kinds of things that one could do even though nobody nobody in their right mind would do all this but at least there's no proof it may be odd but if somebody follows you know proof that you're doing something that intelligence officers would be doing so and the whole idea was to then get two spots where somebody has to get close enough so you can see him so my ability to recognize his face. It was very important because if they don't get close enough than they lose you and even though I typically had between eight and ten people on my tail even though they would switch which places all the time they ran out of switches so to speak and when I got to a point where I saw the same face again. I know that I was being followed. So that's I wrote Mayer report. They were there. It was sometimes was interesting to get the report that they wrote. Because you know I realized I missed that one I missed that one but ultimately I was Wrong the ultimate score and these were like highly trained professionals but the ultimate score was me like ten nothing but one thing I would like to take share with the viewing audience which was really interesting. One Guy Got Soda Not know that he was too close. I saw him and he he did something. That is the ultimate diversionary tactic. He came up to me and asked me for light. I never thought that he was one of the surrealist group so well tatum accomplishments right because he did the opposite of what you would think. Which is he was supposed to Bono? I'm he saw me. I'm supposed to duck out site or pretend the JIG is up instead. He walked up and said. Hey you have a lighter and he thought oh well. This can't be him because he's right in my face. Absolutely as I said these were professional. I know that because there were the teams that would be deployed boy to follow American diplomats or high level visitors from the West Army of them but the guy who was charged with these groups. I worked with him individually. It was a master of disguise disgusted in the book. The disguise is not what people think. What is a disguise? Typically that if it's not a wig in a fake moustache he was a mess muscled. misdirection the mess of like. Oh you look over here. I do something over there for me. To put on. A WIG wasn't absolute. No that's not since the surveillance teams sometimes used at least accessories. They might change even jackets or put on a scarf for you know put on a different hat. But generally this is one of the running feuds with the producers of the Americans because every time I see one of the agents with on I just shiver and his now agreement. TV Yeah they do look ridiculous wearing the whigs and you're thinking of course you look like the same person you just have another bad eighties air. Do what are you doing. Did you ever visit the Stodgy Museum. There's a picture of agents with wigs and funny hats on so ridiculous. Stop laughing when I saw that I must have been. It's been so long when when in the nineties so it's hard to remember everything that I did but when I go back I would definitely have to see that as well and I. I know that it's in the old. STODGY headquarters as well that I. I don't remember it's somewhere. Near in the center of combat. It does matter as I said wage are unknown in the enter counter-espionage measures took a lot of time. As far the training is concerned. I think that was the most thorough part of my training other than language. Do you have any tips for learning faces. You mentioned your facial. Recognition skills had to be on point. I think it's benefit talent. I've been told to even early on when I was a teenager. When we would be with a friend or with my family the restaurant and people would tell me stop staring? I was always daring people. I was always observing. There was no nothing. I practiced. There were no tools that allow me to better with uh-huh Partially a talent and partially focus. Yeah maybe you're looking at people's faces instead of being self absorbed or looking at their faces instead of looking at their clothing. The things like that while the one thing that may help when I look at people I usually speculate. Who are what they come from weather here? And and so now your brain operates already at a different level and I think it may make the visual stick better. So what are those three factors again. Who are they willing to control? I'm fro- Here and what are they gonNA do next. It's sort of like especially when you stationary this folks next to a table at a restaurant. I'd been very very curious all my life. And that's part of what makes you good at least that kind of activity. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger urban show with our guest. Jack Barsky. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by zero. We've been using zero here in the company for years. Now it's cloud based accounting accounting software. We actually went after them to sponsor the show because Gen loves it she's been raving about it for years. It's fast. It's intuitive it's easy to use even for people. Well that hate the idea that you have to accounting your business at all and I know that sounds weird but you know who you are business owners where you're just like bookkeeping keeping control of my inventory. Enjoy a lot of our entrepreneur. Friends use it. 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Please click that little star next to the episode. We really appreciate it and now for the conclusion of part one with Jack Barsky you mentioned in the book deep undercover. That caution is a spies. Best Friend and paranoia is his enemy. What does that mean that's well put? Isn't it unlock that well. Obviously you have to be cautionary but if you take this to an extreme at any point in time in my career so to speak. I couldn't come up with fifty to a hundred reasons why I shouldn't be doing this by. Yeah there's danger lurking around every corner and if you can put this out of your mind then you will freeze freeze because then you just being your pants out of fear as almost like performance anxiety you. I'm sure you're familiar with that. Any good performer has a certain level of performance anxiety. If you go too far you can't perform but if you don't have it your entire being will not be ready to do. Its very best. I I think that's what I meant by saying. Don't be afraid to be scared but don't be scared to a point where you can't operate any more than you might as well Arkadi go home. How do you keep those things straight? Because caution and paranoia are basically on the same spectrum because I think you can do that only in the realm home of reason when you allow you emotions to take over. That question very quickly turned into fear that cannot be managed. It's reason reason you reason with yourself. You know this can't happen this can happen. It doesn't make any sense that the probabilities of something going bad are very low. Put this out of your mind. That's it's fascinating right so you have to control your emotional response to things otherwise you will start to become paranoid. which is the far end of the spectrum? When it comes to the caution so in other words you can become so cautious that you become ineffective? Yeah and I think my scientific training that a lot to do with is when I said. I studied chemistry. Mr Yeah. There was a lot of math in there and always been a numbers person. So when you go into a particular situation when you go into a new endeavour and you figured the probabilities are reasonably in your favor. Then you stop thinking about it you just do it so finally the KGB sends you to Canada. You're ready for almost prime time. I'm you're watching a ton of TV. You mentioned the price is right and you will good times with JJ and Dino yes sir and you you said he had trouble understanding him is that because he spoke essentially an urban dialect of English. That you wouldn't have learned from your teacher Jive right. I could not understand it. I mean it was so oh foreign to me and nowadays you know. I don't even know why I didn't understand it but I had learned what you call high American so to speak. It's not the doesn't doesn't exist. But you know the midwestern brand of the American accent and I could not understand No way I barely managed to understand the flow person out of the diner episode because she had a southern accent. I managed to understand her. You know in in it showed me that I was far away away from actually being an American. That test trip was actually a real good thing. That helped me a lot to understand a to make sure that I don't go into the real game cocky. That's like when you have a good practice. Game in the new coach will tell you all the bad things that you did. You know in my case I just notice that all myself right so you had to pick up so so many different things you mentioned flow from the diner. She's the kiss my grits. That's a Sir that type of thing I watched a lot of TV as a kid. Can you tell we watch the same. MM stuff but what. You probably didn't watch the friendly giant from Canadian broadcasting. I did and I'll tell you why I grew up in Detroit so I was right across from Windsor. And you mentioned going to win the book and you nailed the American common here. You say it's always worth the trip across the river your beer so much better than ours. That is something that everybody Eddie from Detroit says when they go to Windsor which we do all the time. Oh that was a good guess. I had no clue but I knew that the beer was better. I don't know how I knew this because I hadn't had any American beer but I knew it was by law was weaker. Maybe while I was in Montreal people were bragging about well. You know cow beer so much better than you know because the Canadians have a chip on the shoulder and anytime they can say something. We'll talk about something where they're better superior to the southern neighbor they they will rub it in your face. He of course that definitely makes accents. Maybe a little bit of a complex. They're now they're just glad they don't have to deal with the same politicians we do but back then definitely there was a little bit of. Hey you know we're different in this way no offense. I love Canadian brothers and the majority of really good comedians in the United States. So we'll come from Canada so thank you very much for that court. Of course that look you had to acquire choir your identity in Canada. Can you tell us how you tried to get the birth certificate and become essentially American or at that point by what you're doing there. There was a failure. Actually besides this being practice trip I was also instructed to get a copy of birth certificate of a young person who had passed at the early age. I don't know how they found out. I have no idea how they actually found that information. Because the county where the person was born was someplace in California. Nia and the only place in California where the Soviets had folks operating out of San Francisco no idea so anyway. They gave me a name. They gave me basic information and in those days at least it was possible to that you can get a copy of her birth certificate by May also I sat down. I wrote a little letters as I'm Henry Ben Randall. which is the real name that this person had? I remember that one and this is my father's name is my mother's name was born on this date in this place. I'd like to have a copy of my birth certificate and closes the amount of you know there was a fee attached to it and I mailed a letter and then I waited and I waited instead of taking the week or two weeks as we had thought after like five or six weeks. I decided I gotta do something about it. I'm actually called the registrar's Office of the county and I sorta pretended to be angry. I yelled at them as is. Hey listen what happened to my birth certificate. You got my money so can can. I please have what I paid for. And so there was a back and forth and eventually the lady at the other end or whoever was could have been a guy but I think it was a lady I said okay. We'll take care of it and with a week's time I get a letter in the mail. It's addressed to end remand Randall at the address where I lived. I amassed the address was a small hotel so it wasn't visible. There was a hotel and it was from California. Say who in I collect downstairs. Go Up to my room and in anticipation nation of this great success. I opened the letter and I pull this thing out and I was one of the biggest disappointments in my entire life. I mean it ranks only second into being dumped by. My first girlfriend was a bold red letters stamped across from bottom left to top right deceased so this is what I was thinking. Oh Shit because you know immediately you understand that here is a ours Lewis says send me a copy of my birth certificate but the I died something is wrong so you know I packed up. I left Montreal in a went on the rest of my trip. You know from town to town until till I wound up in Windsor and later on I found out that actually law enforcement was on my tail but never really caught up with me as a matter of fact the F. B. I. During my debriefing process or you'll recall it interrogation whatever you WANNA call it. But they showed me a police sketch of me. Wow that was taken based on the folks who were running the hotel giving them a description of what I looked like I mean I escaped by heads breath of being caught at doc point noble undercover career. You know they would have put me in jail. I would've told him you know. I WANNA talk with East German Embassy and eventually you know they could have kept in jail for a while and then I would have been exchanged. I have no idea what the Russians would have done with me but certainly I was off the market for an undercover career case. That's insane. How did you become Jack Barsky and realized this in the book is quite the Saga but how did you become Barsky? who was this person because it's easier for us to say it's the person you're talking to you now but that wasn't always the case? Well after this failure to acquire the birth certificate of Mr Van. Randall the Soviets decided that maybe maybe we will do something different. They sent me back to Berlin for a while with the instructions to learn Portuguese. All idea that somehow Brazil was in the picture they never disclosed whether Brazil was going to be a waystation into the United States which would have been quite normal what they did very often. The goal to the United States by the from country or with a Brazil was going to be the final stop for me but anyway but after about six months I got a call from my handler. Oh listen pack bags OCTA Moscow. We got a birth certificate for you to some diplomat in Washington. DC was wondering around in cemeteries and he found on the gravestone that was engraved with the name of Jack. Barsky born in nineteen forty four best away in nineteen fifty four. I know that now but I didn't know it. Then but he posed as the father of the deceased I acquired a debt certificate. And would that actually was able to get a copy of the original birth certificate then sent it to Moscow and it was added to me and that's how it became Jack. Barsky what do you think of that whole thing. Now I mean is there any sort of at any level in your head. Is there sort of any identity issues that look you've been living under the name of a dead kid for a long time but at the same time that's you also now. Two answers possibly be with three but two primary answers to the question eight. It was standard operating procedure. By Soviet intelligence to steal people's identities particularly individuals would passed the way at younger ages. They did this to out in the thirties and forties at into the fifties number two. I don't feel good about it and I had plans to change the name back to my at least last name back to my German name. which would do well in American English as I could be pronounced the dietrich but I couldn't at the time because I was involved in some civil proceedings in court and you're not allowed to change your name then was caught by sixty minutes and before you know it you know I now have a brand name that says Jack Barsky? I can't get out of it and continue to function in the way I'm functioning now now as an author public speaker all that heat I just. Can't you know eventually I have to find my daughter by the way Chelsea the one who plays a big role in my life she changed her last name back to the German last name. One of those days. I'll find a way to at least shed part of that name because this is one of the things that I don't feel good about. There's not too many things whereas said I was absolutely fundamentally morally wrong but this is one of them every time somebody asks me that question what I think about it you know I just want us to go away with it's hard. Yeah I can imagine and I understand the tough spot that you're in. I don't know if I would have done anything differently. It seems very tough to be able to change something like that after so many years in it to a certain extent rent. You've had the name Jack Barsky longer than the person who originally had it and so I don't know it's tricky. I had it longer than the German named and think about this one. I got a six searle. You ask her. What's your name Kennedy? Barsky Oh yeah okay. So it's a good Jewish Polish name. A lot of people attach your motions to names James. I don't because I carried a lot of them particularly when I travelled illegally but you have to respect for other people look at names of very often people attached their own self to a particular name that they carry. Yeah well again. You didn't so and I think it's more your choice now. The original Jack Barsky has nothing to say about it. In fact in many ways lift fuller life than than he ever had of course so I definitely understand both sides of the equation. Tell us about your arrival in the United States. Now you're finally ready for Primetime wasn't what you can't make that up tenue and that's indicative. How poorly prepared I was the Russians? Didn't have anybody in Chicago ago. So they couldn't prepare me for what to look out for Chicago in what areas to avoid so when I arrived late in the evening when I e planes blamed got through customs the first thing is the place to sleep so I look up the yellow pages. Look up the hotel I call them up a major organization. I got in a cab and and I said well this is the address in the cab. Driver looked at me funny and I had no idea why he's looking at me funny anyway. When we get there I had an inkling because there was a rundown rundown place the people who were not of the same Colorado? I was so into the hotel and then I got an idea that this may may not be the place where I wanna be because the receptionist was protected by a wall of Plexiglas. But I have to funny way. This is probably a guys and we don't like to turn around. We don't like to make cards but in my situation I felt funny if I walk out of there after I make a reservation. I don't know maybe I tip my hands. Maybe somebody figures out Sunday's Tehran with this guy so I went through this. I stated the hotel I had actually reserved for two nights. I ag- ran out of the next morning after I manage to destroy my passport. I traveled under and pulled out the American certificate from a secret compartment. At that point I was docked Barsky and then I checked into hotel for uptown. That was a lot more amenable lot safer under the name of Jack Boskin. That's how my life in the United States. Ah Barsky began was earlier. Tober of nineteen seventy eight. He had had his incredible. And so. Of course you're looking for an apartment Hartman at this point and I know that you got scammed looking for that apartment you said you learned a valuable lesson about capitalism if it sounds too good to be true it probably is I i WanNa know is it not also applicable to communism in fact to me that sounds like the motto communism. It's too big. Thank you to Jack Barsky. We're not done yet. Part two coming out soon. Jack wrote deep undercover. My secret life entangled allegiances as a KGB spy in America great read obviously blinked. That'll be in the show notes. There's also worksheets for each episodes. You can review what you've learned from Jack Barsky at Jordan Harbinger Dot com in the show notes. We also get transcripts scripts now for every episode and those can be found in the show notes as well. We're teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at six minute networking working. That's our free course on networking that's at Jordan harbinger dot com slash course. Don't do it later do it. Now you Jack Barsky waited 'til later no dig the well before before you get thirsty once you need relationships you're too late. Don't stagnate don't procrastinate do it now the drills take a few minutes per day this is all just crush for personal and business stuff. All Free Jordan harbinger dot com slash course and by the way guests on the show they subscribe to the course and the newsletters. Come join us. You'LL BE IN SMART Company speaking of building relationships relationships you can always reach out and or follow me on social. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both twitter and instagram. This shows created in association with podcast. One this episode was produced produced by Gen Harbinger. Jason Filipo edited by J Sanderson. Show notes and worksheets by Robert. Fogerty Music Evan Viola. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own and yeah. I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer or am I as Soviet spy. Guess you'll never know. Do Your own research before implementing anything can you hear on the show remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting which should be in every episode so please share share the show with those you love and even those you don't in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the shows. You can live what you listen and we'll see next time and other little bit of news. Here's is kind of strange but I essentially in the face of a shoe from case where it's called the startup and I'm the face of the risk risk model. Probably because hiring me to be. The face of a shoe is a risky move but when most might think of risk self-belief and confidence are attributes of a pro athlete. Or there's some kind of Rockstar case was believed to be attributes of today's new hero. The entrepreneur and I say that fully look at myself with a straight face. Their latest Sneaker Inca release honors New Heroes disruptors of culture with the case with startup to get a lightweight design premium leather sophisticated features throughout. This is a really popular shoe. WHO actually they're sold out a lot online and gave a few pair way to some of you on social media and you're loving them so thanks for the positive feedback there? It's not a sneaker for pro athletes. It's a sneaker for entrepreneurs the case with startup you can find it a case with dot com and you can also see some cool photos of me trying to look like a professional athlete while being a business toner instead and let me tell you the shoes much higher quality than my performance in that photo shoot.

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Presenting: The Jordan Harbinger Show featuring Jack Barsky former KGB Spy

Darknet Diaries

30:02 min | 4 months ago

Presenting: The Jordan Harbinger Show featuring Jack Barsky former KGB Spy

"Hey It's Jack hosted the show. I'm busy this week working on the next episode. But while you're waiting I'd like to play for you another podcast. I think he'd really like it's called the Jordan Harbinger show actually had Jordan on this podcast. Which was episode fifty-six because he has a great stories himself and his podcast is an interview show and the guest. He has on our incredible. I'm just GONNA go ahead and play for you one of my favorite episodes where he interviews a KGB spy and if you like it should go subscribe to show so he go check it out Jordan. Harbinger show is one of the most popular interview. Podcasts in the world on the show your host Jordan Harbinger. That's me by the way deconstructs. The playbook of the most interesting people on Earth shares their strategies perspectives and practical insights with you. You're going to hear amazing stories from people that have lived them from spies to CEO's athletes. Art Forgers an FBI hostage negotiator and conman who can seemingly program our minds basically anything that will help you upgrade your brain so you can become a high performer. Both at home and at work. You're about to hear a preview of a very abridged version of my episode with Jack Barsky former KGB spy on the Jordan Harbinger show. Jack learned to pretend to be American for the purpose of stealing our national secrets and he loved it here so much. He never went home to the Soviet Union it also took the FBI decades to catch him. In the meantime Jack had all sorts of adventures on the right side of the Iron Curtain. And while you're listening to this preview go subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger. Show on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you're listening now there's also a link in the episodes that'll take you there. It's a really fun show that I think you're gonNA love the only advice I can give young people. There's the following it always takes longer and it always costs more so much for trying to be funny. That's great though. I love that as a former undercover agent for the KGB. You've got plenty of ideas on using your feelings to your advantage. Also probably ignoring emotions. Can you tell us about your childhood because I think it does inform some of the things that happened later in your life where the harm was was a lack of emotional love? That was just done. I can't remember any didn't manage to even Say I love you? That this was completely not part of much not having had that. You don't know you don't know what you're missing. You don't know what you should have had. There's story in the book where your stomach hurt and your mom made you take the bus to the hospital. Which turned out to be an emergency appendectomy so it seems like early on you. Learn to ignore your emotions. You learn to ignore pain. What normal parent in this day and age would make their fifteen year? Old Teenager walked to the bus. I could walk straight anymore. The pain that bad as as what you go to the hospital. So they erected the Berlin Wall to protect you over there from the West German Fascists Cetera. And at that point in your childhood you saw a bright future ahead compared to capitalism right. You're thinking wow. We have the socialist paradise going on. What's the dialogue in your head? Is Young Man incredibly appealing to young minds? And since we didn't get any counter argument that stock by the stock with the cokes. For a long time it is I contemporaries of mine. Even though they got royally screwed by the communist state are still deep down inside the communists once he joined the Communist Party as a brilliant chemist. You got the knock on your door from the mystery guy who we still don't know who the heck that is of course they're looking for people like you right. Oh absolutely at the time. They recruited me. I added spotless record and I fathered a child out of wedlock which by the way in those days. The party didn't like a lot in the normally they would have called me and read me the riot act. Nothing happened so I was already out. Removed from the masters had joined. Delete not necessarily knowing Nightside I was untouchable. I was above the law because I broke laws and tunnel as well. As in other countries I was encouraged to do things that you want supposed to do. Like what Western television when I crossed the border between East Germany and the Soviet Union? I was always bypassing customs and Pasco control so I was really unprecedented. Really feels good because I never liked rules but when I got the official imprimature to break rules in support of a good. 'cause you know it's having your cake and eat it too. Which in real life doesn't happen but for a while I added. What was your first impression of West Berlin when you finally were able to go and see it firsthand. My first impression was. Oh wow they got caller. The West was a movie shot in Colin in the east the only black and white because with immediately issue was that contrast between the Brown and the gray and all kinds of collison were visible once. You stepped out of the subway. End appeared on Western territory. So it's kind of like going out of a black and white movie and into a technicolor. Yeah indeed all right so they ship you off to Moscow and they tell you all right you've got to adopt an American mindset. How do they instruct you how to do this for two years? I studied by. I studying as hard. I learned a hundred new words every day. I can state that with confidence because I always counted it my entire life so I became quite fluent in American English but my preparation with regard to American culture was almost non existent. It reminds me of the movie. Die Hard I don't know if you'll remember this but those German terrorist taken over the building. And the way that Bruce Willis knows they're the bad guys says yeah. It's raining like dogs and cats instead of cats and dogs and that that's how he knows there the foreign guys because he gets that idiom wrong. There's a lot of things that contribute to the united aware of what they told me back and make sure that you never eat with knife in the right hand. Focus the left cut. You'll need than take the fork and then just eat with four. That's of is out the window nowadays but that was the extent to which I learned American culture. There's a great story in the book as well about your mother coming to visit. You've got put on this facade. Would you mind telling us that story? When she came to visit we panicked because she wasn't supposed to meet me anywhere so she went as part of a tourist group and she had two days of Moscow so they put me up in a hotel onto the cover that my apartment was being renovated and then we decided that one of my handlers would come as a friend and we would just like inundate them with sites and things to see and make sure that they couldn't even get their head up and ask questions before you know what they were gone so that went really well. The only thing that became a problem is when mom said. Why don't we take a picture with you and set a gay? Who was my friend right? But he was a handler. Oh my God I looked at the corner of my eyes. I saw Sergei wince because KGB employees weren't supposed to have their picture taken he couldn't say no so. This is the only picture that I have and I think it up in the book. A me Sergei will have. The picture was taken by her husband somewhere in. Soviet Russia. Someone's going holy crap. There's a picture of my dad with this guy says he's the KGB's by my dad worked at a shoe factory. What's this doing in there? That's a possibility? Love the guy. I wish I could meet them again. I wonder what happened to him? He was a genuinely nice person. The Fella should still be alive. I'm wondering what happened to him. I wonder if any of the sort of spy espionage geeks listening to this have any idea. It's very very possible. The guy's still around. I mean he's probably just your age is my age. A secret ended anonymous. Maybe they exist when you're learning to be a spy when you're learning to be an espionage undercover agent. Here your had a lot of counter surveillance training and drills. Tell us about how you were trained. It seems like they were chasing me through town and things like that super interesting. What PEOPLE THINK ABOUT ESPIONAGE? What is like to work on the cover this is as close to? It's portrayed in the media as possible and I guarantee you would even nowadays if somebody wants to know whether they're being observed being followed. They need to do what I did. It took phenomenal amount of time for me just to find the right places to visit the right route through Moscow to determine whether I was being followed so leave my apartment and I go on a we our trip for town you know. Visit all kinds of public places shops possibly a museum by a ticket at a theater. New do all kinds of things that one could do. Even though nobody in their right mind would do all this. But at least there's no proof that you're doing something that intelligence officers would be doing and the whole idea was to then get to spots where somebody has to get close enough so you can see him so my to recognize faces was very important because if they don't get close enough than they lose you and I typically had between eight and ten people on my tail and when got to a point where I saw him face again and I know that I was being followed. One Guy Got Soda caught. T know that he was too close. I saw him and he did something. That is the ultimate diversionary tactic. He came up to me and asked me for light. I never thought that he was one of the surveillance group so well a compliment. These professional were the teams would be deployed to follow American diplomats or high level visitors from the West the guy who was in charge of these groups I worked with him. Individually was a master of disguise disguises. Not What people think. He was a mess of misdirection. The mess of like you know you look over here and do something over there. These surveillance teams sometimes used at least accessories. They might change even jackets or put on a scarf for you. Know put on a different hat for me. To put on a wig wasn't absolute no no nonsense. They do look ridiculous wearing the wigs. And you're thinking of course you look like the same person you just have another bad eighties air. Do What are you doing? Do you have any tips for learning faces? You mentioned your facial. Recognition skills had to be on point one thing that may help. When I look at people I usually speculate. Who are they what they come from whether here? And so now your brain operates already at a different level and I think it may make visual stick better you mention in the book deep undercover that caution. A best friend and paranoia is his enemy. What does that mean at any point in time in my career so to speak. I could have come up with fifty to a hundred reasons why I shouldn't be doing this by. There's danger lurking around every corner. And if you can put this out of your mind then you will freeze. Don't be afraid to be scared but be scared to a point where you can't operate any more than you might as well just. I couldn't go home when you allow you. Emotions to take over that question Very quickly turned into fear. That cannot be managed. Can you tell us how you tried to get the birth certificate and become essentially American or at that point by what you're doing there? There was a failure. Actually besides this being a practice trip I was also instructed to get a copy of a birth certificate of a young person who had passed at an early age. I sat down. I wrote a letter. Says I'm Henry Ben Randall. Which is the real name that this person had and this is. My father's name is my mother's name was born on this date in this place. I'd like to have a copy of my birth certificate encloses. The amount of ood was a fee attached to it and I mailed a letter and then I waited and I waited and I waited instead of taking the week or two weeks as we had thought after like five or six weeks. I decided I got to do something about it. I'm actually called the registrar's Office of the county and I sort of pretended to be angry. I yelled at them as as. Hey listen what happened to my birth certificate? You got my money so can I please have what I paid for the lady at the other end said okay? We'll take care of it and within a week's time I get a letter in. The Mail is addressed to Henry Man Randall and it was from California Zoo in. I collect as downstairs. I go to my room and in anticipation of this raid success. I opened the letter and pull this thing out and I was one of the biggest disappointments in my entire life. I mean a- drags only second to being dumped by my girlfriend. There was a bold red letters stamped across from bottom left to top right deceased. Oh Shit because you know immediately you understand. That here is a person who has send me a copy of my birth certificate but the person died something is wrong so you know. I packed up. I left Montreal in a went on the rest of my trip. Go from town to town until I wound up Windsor and later on I found out that actually law enforcement was on my tail but they never really caught up with made the FBI. The debriefing process. They showed me a police. Sketch of me. Wow that was taken based on the folks who were running the hotel giving them a description of what I looked like that. Coin Certainly. I was off the market for an undercover career. How did you become Jack Barsky? Ed realized this in the book is quite the Saga but how did you become Jack Barsky? Who was this person because it's easier for us to say? Oh it's the person you're talking to you now but that wasn't always the case. Well after this failure to acquire the certificate of Mr Van. Randall the Soviets sent me back to Berlin for awhile with the instructions to learn Portuguese idea that somehow Brazil was in the picture but after about six months. I got a call from my handlers Listen pack bags OCTA Moscow. We got a birth certificate for you. Some diplomatic and Washington DC was wandering around in cemeteries and he found the gravestone that was engraved with the name of Jack. Barsky born in one thousand nine hundred forty four passed away in nineteen fifty four. He posed as the father of the deceased. I acquired a certificate and would that actually was able to get a copy of the original bread certificate and send it to Moscow and it was added to me and that's how it became Jack Barsky then was caught by sixty minutes. And before you know it you know I now have a brand named it says Jack Barsky and continue to function in the way functioning now as an author a public speaker and all that I can't get out of it. Tell us about your arrival in the United States. Now you're finally ready for Primetime. The Russians didn't have anybody in Chicago so they couldn't prepare me for what to look out for Chicago in what areas to avoid so when I arrived late in the evening and when I got through customs of fresh things I need a place to sleep so I look up the pages look up the I called him up a matter of Asian. I got an cap and I said well this address in the cab driver looked at me funny and I had no idea why you looking at me. Funny when we get there. I had an inkling because it was a rundown place and the people who were not of the same Colorado is I was so boldly into the hotel and then I got an idea that this may not be the place where I wanna be because the receptionist was protected by a wall of Plexiglas. But I have to funny way. This is probably a guy thing we don't like to turn around. We don't like to make you fi- walk out of the after I've maker reservation. I don't know maybe I tip my hand. Maybe somebody figures out. Something's wrong with this guy so I went through with this. I stated that hotel but I ran out of the next morning. After I managed to destroy passport I traveled under an pulled out the American birth certificate from a secret compartment at that point I was Dak Barsky and then I checked into hotel further uptown. That was a lot more amenable lot safer under the name. Jack Barsky and that's how my life in the United States as tech Barsky began. He had had his incredible. I know that you've got scammed looking for that apartment. You said. He learned a valuable lesson about capitalism. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is. I want to know is it not also applicable to communism in fact to me sounds like the motto for Communism? It's too good to be true. So it's not true. Under communism opportunities to be taken for a fool you were taken for full as far as your entire way of life was concerned but there weren't any shady operators. That could come up to you and sell you something. That was so special. Not As many there were some. What were some of the initial differences you saw between living and capitalism in New York versus under communism to be honest anything that would be more of a WHO who I missed was friends not so much family friends Mike German wife but as far as way of life there was nothing to miss. I didn't even miss. Being a chemistry. Professor is one Word Supermarket. The variety of food. That you could bet there was astounding. Now you got a job as a bike messenger and you're making deliveries all over the city. You once made a delivery from Russian tea room to Dustin Hoffman. Does doesn't often know that he came face to face with KGB spy course not by the way he was not highly regarded by us. He didn't tip was very cheap. That's incredible that's so funny. Dustin Hoffman multimillionaire. Doesn't tip got his food delivered by the KGB. In you get married in nineteen eighty actually and you have a kid with girl. Linda disaster. Not 'cause you just ridiculous. Amounts of stress nowadays can say with some confidence that I had manufactured a dual personality to some degree. So every two years I would go back and spend time with Lyndon at that point my son. It was great to be home with great to meet. My wife is still loved very much. My son have German food. Drink a lot of good beer. So this is what happened when I went back to the United States. Let's say I would touch down in Washington. Dc or on? Boston a get off the plane I he American English will be home because I already had the start of good life. I started a career as a program on that work for Metlife. I love my team. I loved what I was doing a become so accustomed to the American way of life. Tell us about the process of Americanization. He started working at metlife. You make friends with this guy. Patrick Year Insurance Job essentially starts to change your ideology. Can you walk us through that how that happened as I'd say? The book is one of the most evil entities that of capitalism to us as we were told in. East Germany in those days. What the insurance companies these worlds of. Capitals Evil Greedy Money Hoarders and people who exploit others. I got my first job in an insurance company. I liked the work. I mean programming for the first time in many years migraine got engaged again and then I met so many smart people and they were all really good people. They became friends. They didn't pay that. Well but they treated you really well. The Untold Compact was. When you find employment there you have a job for life now. You started to feel at some point like spying was actually getting in the way of your job which I thought was funny. My focus shifted towards doing a good job for mid life rather than the KGB and it became a nuisance the communication as well as surveillance detection. All this kind of stuff takes phenomenal amount of time. So what we're doing you talking back and forth the information that I just give you for me to actually hand that amount of information to the Russians. I would have had to write it down. Take a picture. Put an undeveloped film into a container ask for a debt drop operation. Make sure that I'm not being followed. Drop thing some place you the whole operation. End-to-end would take a week to and with all kinds of activity in between self funny. You're just sitting there doing insurance thing programming. Something that he thought would be a aside cover and now they're saying. Hey we need a full report into thinking these guys. What a pain. It's so funny they're communicating with you. On the shortwave. By the way they're communicating with you. On the shortwave radio. How is it done? What are they saying? Because they're obviously not saying. Hey come in Jack. Barsky spy for the Soviet Union. What are you listening for on this radio? I would get groups of Fives Bokan digits. Five six four eight transmitted and I know the frequency to tune into but there was a call signal that three letters or digits that indicated Transmission was for me and then the whole thing started and sometimes it took a good hour to actually listen to the whole thing and write it down and then it took another three to four hours to decrypt this thing. Obviously anyone can hear that but it's encrypted and I'm wondering random letters and numbers because when I was a kid I would go up north and be stuck in this dumb cottage so we had a short wave. Radio was old is probably from the sixties or seventies and so. I'm a kid in the eighties and I'm listening to this and I'm here in other languages. I'm just wondering. Is there any chance at all? I heard something that was intended for us. Five is a very good chance that you heard something. That was encrypted. No doubt even as we speak I guarantee you traverse the short waves. You will hear digits being transmitted that are meant for somebody that is doing something that is not entirely legal in the place. Where he's doing it with shortwave. It's broadcasted you can never pinpoint the receiver. Which is the point right? You don't know the general direction guarantee you the NSA new. There's a Guy. You're someplace in northeast. Who's getting this every week? But that's all they knew there was no way that they could trace it back. To be you know shortwave still does break down the problems. So at least as a fallback shortwave. I guarantee you still being used interesting. How did you flip to eventually essentially becoming full America? I know they tried to call you home. Can you take us through that something happened and neither the FBI? Nor I have a clue why the Soviets at that point saw that might cover was about to be blown in I N. Absolutely convinced that they were in the belief they called me back and they called me back as an emergency departure. They've done this in the past quote back an agent and as soon as stage step on Soviet soil they are jailed or even executed now that the execution thing was in the past but Stalin did a lot of that even after Stalin. Some of that happened when they would call back ages eight. Listen YOU DANGER. They go back and boom. That's what the danger was. I was now in that moral dilemma and the moral dilemma was. Can I leave this? Eighteen month. Old Girl to fend for herself with the mother who didn't have much of an education. She came from a very poor country in South America. So I decided I would defy them that. I'm not returning I had money saved on. My county was a lot of money. You know those days. Sixty thousand dollars on the other side of the curtain was a fortune. The Russians had promised me a house and I was going back a hero and rejoined my family. You put this on one side of the scale on the other side. You have three things you got the FBI possibly chasing has to meet the KGB. Not being very happy with me not going back and then there was Chelsea. Wow and it was a chance that the KGB the FBI would come after me and that the KGB would not be very happy with me defying the orders to return and the only counter to all that reasoning was my love for Chelsea. This is a line. That's used very often very often unthinkingly but true. Love conquers all. How did you get away with that? I mean you had an encounter with the KGB at one point before you're blowing off right. Can you tell us about that? I was stalling the Soviets like pretending that I didn't get their message so I bought myself time for several weeks in one day. Put an end to that. And that they send one of their resident agents to actually tell me what the orders were and he said to me. You gotta come home or else you're dead and was up to me to interpret what that meant but could have meant your cover's blown and he didn't use the right word or was a threat you had to take the threat seriously because the KGB in those days did kill. And I knew that I wrote them. This led I understand. You want me to come back. And I'm not coming because I have contracted aids and this is the only place in the world. Where could treatment sorry? I will not defect. I will not betray any secrets and please give the money on my account to my family. Wow so it work. You've gained your American family extensively. You've gained your freedom. Finally I was out of the spy. Game I was off the stage of the international scene and I was just going to dedicate my life to my family and so when my American wife suggested that maybe we should look into buying a home. I got serious and I discussed with my wife to have another child. We move to a northern suburb of New York and within the bird four five months my son was born and so he had the perfect American family husband with a good job. Pretty Lengthy Commute Nice House. Two children career opportunities career was going well and that is why I was until the FBI caught up with me. I had to face my best. And Billy figure out WHO AM I. And how do I relate to this country that I'm living? Tell us how you got caught because the story is just not complete until you like you said had to face your past one day. I was stopped the other side of toll gate crossing the Delaware River. It was initially. It was a state trooper routine stop. We would just like to check your license in vegetation and could you step out of the car. I step out of the car. Still not having a clue what was going on and then I see out of the corner of my eye somebody approaching me from the back. There was another vehicle parked there before I could put two and two together fellow introduce themselves as Joe Riley. Fbi and he showed me. This badge would like to talk with you. What are you thinking at that point? Let's go through your head right then. I knew I wasn't big trouble at no idea. How big it was. But according to WHO is my friend to Riley handled this pretty well so once. They had me in their car. We drove for about a minute First Question I asked my under arrest and the answer was no than within another minute or so. I said so what took you so long. This was my intrinsic instinct to break the ice. I always do that I think. They chuckled a little bit and I think helped break the ice. How they found me was there was a defector that used to work in the KGB archives who defected to Emmett five thirty British version of the FBI and brought with him Ole Bunch of handwritten notes add amongst. Those notes was a blurb that says Jack Barsky on New York region. Oh man that's all. They had the Russian agent had found a gravestone with the name of Joe Smith. They wouldn't have found me but they're not too many Barsky from this country. Why aren't you in jail right now? That's what people WANNA know. Okay you get caught by the FBI. What are you doing here? I've done a couple of public appearances with Joe Riley who was deleted aged on this case and his answer was Mr Barsky was a whole lot. More valuable to US cooperating. Than in jail he would cost US money and we wouldn't have gotten out of him would be got in. That was valuable to us. Incredible they probably looked at the crimes that you have done in thought okay so he reported on how insurance companies work in the United States. I think we can get over that in exchange for looking at your crypto technology the frequencies where they talked to you other people. You might know who live here with those people. Look like that information seems much more valuable. You mentioned that you've spoken in public with the FBI agent. Who caught you? What's that relationship like at one point? I said to him I said you know more about me. I remember because the debriefing process was extremely meticulous. I mean it was six weeks intense. We got to know each other. We played a little golf together. We played a lot of golf together. And he's now the Godfather for my last child. This is incredible because this is a man who if things hadn't gone so smoothly would gladly put you in jail for the rest of your life or traded you back to Moscow which would have been death sentence and now he's your daughter's Godfather and you play golf the things I'd like to tell people. Don't lose your sense of cells as part of a group. Don't ever forget who you are interesting advice coming from. Somebody who's been many people was probably one of the most stupid comments I've given. That made me laugh. You right but so what else is new? You don't my life has been a set of contradictions is another one. You caught me if you're interested in the full expanded version of this story and more like it. Check out the full interview on the Jordan Harbinger. Show on Apple podcasts. Spotify or wherever you're listening now.

KGB Jack Barsky FBI Moscow United States Soviet Union New York Jordan Harbinger Apple East Germany Henry Ben Randall Berlin Wall Washington Dak Barsky CEO Communist Party Soviet Russia Earth golf
The Sleeper Agent

I Spy

37:23 min | 11 months ago

The Sleeper Agent

"This is spy show from foreign policies. Were spies tell their story My name is Jack Barsky. I came here in. Nineteen nineteen seventy eight on behalf with the KGB as a undercover sleeper illegal agent and then ten years later I decided to to stay here at another like fifty years became an American citizen. So that's my background from foreign policy. Welcome to ice by real life. Spice Stories told by the people who were there. Each week we feature one former intelligence operative from somewhere around the world describing one operation. I'm Margo Martindale on Today's show Albert Dittrich Aka Jag. Barsky who was born in east. Germany recruited by the KGB and sit to the United States to influence American policy-making Barsky began again is mission to the US at nine hundred. Seventy eight at an especially fraught period of the Cold War within a short time the Soviets would invade Afghanistan. The US would boycott the summer Olympics in Moscow. And Americans with elect the staunch anti-communist Ronald Reagan as president. Barsky risky was one of hundreds of sleeper agents. The Soviets planted in the United States over the years history begins at the University of Vienna in East Germany. Where Barsky risky was a college student? I'm sitting in my dorm room. I was Zeh third year student of chemistry and it wasn't a Saturday. I was doing some homework Ready to you know finish it up and eventually have my night of carousing and drinking and all that and it doesn't work on the door and I said come on This short little guy who quickly introduced himself as a representative of the big company in town called size which still exists. Today is one of the one of the best optics ex company in the world and in those days was split half of it wasn't East Germany and West. So he said you know I'm from that company and I would like to talk with you about what you would want to do after you graduate. That was one heck of a stupid story because in those days no company ever recruited in in in College University. You were assigned to your next job or if you were in the top five percents you could pick. But uh-huh but companies just didn't come so his cover story was idiotic so I knew right away that something is up here. He is not from Kansai Zena again. He's not from this company. He is most likely East German intelligence because he was German. And we talked a little about fifteen minutes and ended was like Blah Blah Blah. I already knew sort of what he was after. He didn't know that I know. And after those was fifteen twenty minutes however long it took he he changed his tune. He said you know. I'm not really from Kasey with government Could you possibly imagine to work for the government. In the future I saw nobody was was asking. So I said Yeah. But not as a chemist Bingo we were communicating sort of between the lines. I know what he was asking for and he had the right answer so he said okay. That's wonderful We should meet again and then when we met again A weekly Ta in the Best Restaurant in town. Where a steak with French fries? I five marks which was a lot of money and so he invited me to have a sort of a it was like a mid mid afternoon dinner And this was great man. I'm going to get a free meal and the Best Restaurant in town so I'm walking in there. They're not. I see another person next to this Guy Blonde Taller and so I didn't can. I approach him so my Recruiter Cruder got up and says come come on okay. He introduces the other fellow. He says this is Herman. And by the way we're working we're working without Soviet friends BINGO. I knew it was. KGB in the meantime we ate the meal we talked a little bit about this that and the other nothing special Then the fellow who You know I got in touch with me at the dorm excused himself. And say okay. You guys you know you just like and from then on I worked with the KGB guy the word KGB was probably never even stated it was clam and not only that it was clear that I was was not recruited to be an informer on you know internal enemies of the state. I was recruited had to do espionage in the West and that was very intriguing. The way this was played with. You can have your cake and eat it to. You can be a fighter for communism and enjoy the privilege the village of a reasonably wealthy capitalists. Hello on top of it. Immediately you get elevated to a very very special in sort of people and that that was intriguing on top of it just the the whole idea that somebody comes to you as hey. We think you're really good enough to do this. So I was flattered. I might my eagle. The went through the roof oof and on top of it. I knew I would be able to travel to the West. Well so I moved to Berlin. That's where my training started. Once I got into this training reading my cover story was that I was working for the State Department of East Germany But obviously you don't go to work every day you don't meet a lot of people every day day And every one you do meet you have to lie to so I. I didn't have a lot of inter action that I had while I was still a student at the university and so it was quite lonely but the whole idea of where I was going carried me along a long way. I had no problem lying to my mother. I have no. I had no problem lying to my brother. I had no problem lying to anybody. Yeah I met. I knew I was going to be somebody Berry special and I knew that I was GonNa do great things my goodness when you had twenty two twenty three years sold. There's nothing else that that that could motivate you any more particularly if you're wired the the way I was There wasn't a lot of emotions in me. It was all about success. It was all about doing better. It was all about pleasing my parents. Even though they were not physically present I was always wired to do. Do better than the rest of them so I left for Moscow to do more more preparation for my travel to the United States. And this was the loneliest. Two years I have spent those two years. The only human interaction I had was with the folks that trained me because I wasn't supposed to mingle with the Russians. I didn't speak much Russian. I had enough of a vocabulary to get around and buy food and go to a restaurant Canton and find my way around town but it was lonely discipline and the knowledge that you're doing something for a particular good cause can make you really suffer without suffering. Make you into somebody you are not for awhile. That doesn't mean that you're comfortable but it wasn't that bad because I studied I listened to BBC At night they gave me You know things to due to read an English. I got a lot of a lot more training. Really really good training in tradecraft. You know thinking back. It's kind of odd that I didn't even miss female companionship. That that there's something in this head of mining this brain of mine that just show able to they. Just adjust the Russians and asked me just before I left whether I would want to have a site contact aside. Contact is like when you go. Oh someplace at a predetermined time and then see somebody that you already know to give you a connection. Apparently this was one of the things that they typically offered to people to to retain in that connection with home and I said I don't need it and I never did but honestly I don't understand me. I'm a loving person and I can be really really really cold. You're listening to ice by a production of foreign policy. We'll be right back. Welcome back to heights by this. Is Margo Martindale so the KGB is trained trained Barsky for several years. I Berlin and then in Moscow. He's taught about cryptography in secret riding. Dead drops and surveillance detections is also also trained to lose his German accent though. It doesn't go away entirely eventually. Barsky handlers give him a fake passport Canadian one and send him up to the united the need states he picks up the story from here. The most tense I twenty minutes of my entire life was Standing in line to be processed by immigration. And then going onto customs. Because you know I was entering the United States with what I knew was a fake passport. passport in the name of William Dyson. William dyson was a Canadian citizen living in Toronto and for some reason the KGB folks who arranged my travel to the United States figured I should get a flight out of Mexico City to Toronto with a stopover in Chicago and he played into cargo. So I stood there in line and my goodness thought. KGB was written on my forehead. Of course it wasn't into the Immigration just looked at the passport. Say so what are you going to do. Here's I just want to take Chicago and then go home no problem and then. Interestingly enough customs went through my suitcase and my goodness desiccated wasn't even full and one of the things that was in. There was a shortwave radio. Now this was not special edition. KGB and you could buy it but nevertheless you know. I just had come from Mexico City and I didn't have like you know bathing sued son Lotion. I had nothing that a traveler to to Mexico might have. But I did have a shortwave radio. Well they didn't pick up on that so I'm leaving. I'm out the first thing I did at as I'm rounding a corner past Both control points. I smoked a cigarette and then I took a deep breath and say what now Went went into the arrival hall. I was looking forward. Tell I had no idea where to go. So I just like randomly pick something and wrote down the phone number borough and the address and then going into a cab and I told the cabdriver the address and he looked at me like hi. I had no idea what that meant. I sort of had a clue when I got there. Hotel was a run down old building and I enter the lobby and the reception desk was protected by Plexiglass. All right what do I know. Let me we'll be standard because I'd never been in a hotel in the United States I did prepaid for tonight's idea was to like You know spend tonight Explore the neighborhood in the next night become jock Barsky and get rid of the dyson. Ide- they get to my room in order to watch television. You have to put a quarter in and that gave you About a half hour worth of TV drank myself to sleep. I had bought a bottle of Johnny Walker Red and that half a bottle of Johnny Walker red. That's a lot of Johnny Walker. Red Woke up with a headache. Took painkillers which I had with me. and then I was figuring out how to get breakfast so I stepped out of the hotel and I realized there was nobody Out there who looked like me to all black I was in the south side of Chicago. I didn't know it I didn't know it until 'til much later but I knew that I didn't quite fit and I figured to get out of the first day I Destroyed the Williamson Passport and took the Jack Barsky birth certificate the out of a secret hiding place and went north registered. I just stood at a hotel About not probably mile and a half north of stayed under contract Barsky the the KGB modus operandi. I to get people settled. The Country Korea under another another name was to steal ideas and the way they stole. Ideas was to look around and cemeteries for people who died young age. And then somehow get some kind of a record. Even that could be a church church record or it could be a government record for that person now in my case There was a diplomat spy. KGB You employees who had diplomatic cover who wandered around in cemeteries and in one of those cemeteries and Baltimore he found the name of Jag Barsky and some other information that was necessary for him to get the death certificate for Barsky Barsky was born in one thousand nine hundred forty four and died in nineteen fifty five he got a death certificate and then parlayed that into a birth certificate. Kind of odd. Isn't it and that was okay. You could actually based on that. You could acquire the documentation you need to become an American. You're the first year of me being in the US. I had almost no contact with people. People like social contacts because I couldn't right And then I got my social security card. But I didn't know how fortunate fortunate that was I became a messenger. Okay and I was a bike messenger so I was hanging out with a bunch of Sort of marginal folks. Don't misunderstand. That marginal doesn't mean that a marginal individuals but there were at the margins of society. Not Making a a lot of money and in and out of this job and I was just sitting there waiting for my next delivery and absorb things and I listened and nobody really cared about asking me any questions because I was just one of those guys who is here today and gone tomorrow and so I learned a lot for about a year and a half a lot about what it means to be an American Pie. Hi Learn Baseball. As a matter of fact I traveled back to Moscow and that came when I came back the moment I had an opportunity I inquired about. You know what was going on in the world series. The Yankees won the world series. I wanted to know I so I eased eased into becoming an American and within one year and I very proudly sent back to Moscow a report that I am not dreaming and English. You know I got away with my my residual accent because I explained that by having grown up bilingual with a German mother. My mother's maiden name was Schwartz which is Jewish or could be German minutes German Jewish. So when when I eventually got a steady girlfriend. She was from South America Erica. She had no clue that that something. Not Quite American about me when it comes to agent life it is ninety five percent totally boring and five percent. I- I- tension action. And you've got to be ready for that. Five percent and primarily most of that five percent had to do with me traveling travelling back to Moscow on coming back into the United States because these trips were always Fraught with danger. I give you roughly sort of an the idea what might agent life was all about a radio transmission shortwave. Once a week on Thursday at nine fifteen pm. I was allowed to communicate back wire secret writing about You know once every three weeks and When I did that I would walk around in the in the city and try to see? See if I'm being followed before I would deposit letter into a mailbox Once a year roughly I was involved in a dead drop operation which means I had something over or I get something but not face to face but you know I made rocks you know. Drop a rock that I made out of plastic Paris and You put something in there that you in my case his was undeveloped film cartridges and the other thing is just like wonder around and look look for people who might be of interest. But that's that's not outside of the rumour what you do day. Today I was trained to do the political espionage in other words to get close to decision makers or influencers in foreign policy and You know the idea was to get connected to places. Like the Hudson Institute The Trilateral Commission. I don't even know if if they still exist. the Institute of Foreign Relations or whatever it's called at Columbia University Because bigness beauticians Aginsky. was ahead of that and he was Steve Foreign policy adviser Pro President Carter so that was the dream that dad well. The dream didn't work out very well because I didn't manage to obtain a passport COMPA- sport and the whole idea was. How's that once I have a passport can travel abroad with that name and say go to Switzerland and and the KGB was going to establish a company and a ton of money into the company that I could then take to the United States and become a player player means you know ten million or whatever that was the Soviet Union ten million? There's no money with ten million You pretty much have knocked on the door of any country club and obviously we would have a targeted one where you have government folks and and become a member. Bingo didn't work. I don't WanNa get too much into detail. We just made a mistake and I was not able to acquire the passport passport so now the mission was a lot harder but they figured that you know to have somebody behind enemy lines just in case things get really hot and all the diplomats get kicked out. And there's no. There's nobody there to to do things on the other side was. Is that important to them. But you know in terms of You know me stealing big-time secrets. I didn't have any I. I met a lot of people I profiled probably about. Fifty people pretty intelligent people most of most of them with a college degree who could've been recruited. But they wouldn't tell me I've no idea and there could have been somebody who was recruited and did a lot of damage. I don't know I wish not but I I can't give that answer for the last is two years. My mission was slightly changed all of a sudden they were looking to steal information. Takoradi stuff so in other words that I was introduced to somebody from a different department. WHO said you know we're falling behind? We need Takuji. Whatever you have whatever you can get your hands on? We would welcome if you can get it. What they did not understand and they know know very well the importance of data I he worked at Metlife in the health insurance department? I had access to the health records of about fifteen million Americans and some of those were employees of Companies that made airplane's weapons munitions. You name it I mean think about it Think think about getting getting the health record of the CEO of a large company that makes weapons and that guy has a prescription that indicates that there are a drug addict. Hello blackmail and I told my hand Louison and didn't even for a moment think about the value of that information. There's a shelf life to somebody like me. Because an honor to be an effective agent you need to be fully integrated in society and the more you integrate a great the more it becomes you and it gets to a point where you could be flipped or you flip yourself. That's what happened happened when I had my daughter Chelsea. He was born in nineteen eighty seven on June. First I. I carried her home. I had married her mother but we had an arrangement by which the apartment that we had we shared. And and I wasn't one side of the apartment. She lived in another side so I could still do the stuff that I was doing As an agent which is number one on Listening to shortwave radio number two composing Letters with the secret writing but I watched this child grow up and I just completely fell in love. What a beautiful wonderful lovely child? She was I think it was early. December when the Russians called me back by the way for a reason that didn't exist. They were. I'm just nervous is as you. You gotta come home or else we think the FBI will get you the KGB had required that I tell my route to work my standard would work and then we agreed on a spot where Korea they could put a signal that meant get out of here. There was no other interpretation. The danger signal meant go retrieve I had some Imagine documents and a Canadian driver's license. It's in a Canadian birth certificate that I had hidden some place in a park way way away from well I lived and just run and that was a red dot and it was about the size of my fist in one day. Unlike half asleep I'm going to subway would like a twelve minute walk and I'm out of teen. I looked at that spot which was a metal support. Beam aim for the elevated part of the train in New York. So I see this red todd and I said An. I can't say this word but it's an S. word and I just could not go because I. I just couldn't come up with a plan. How To support this child? You give her a good life so this is where my tendency to not obey authority kicked in. I didn't do what what that Komo told me to do. I got on the train who went to work. I sat down in front of my computer terminal. Like amid moron. I didn't get any work mcdon- I was trying to figure out my goodness. What do I do? What do I do what I do? I played for time and that was probably the Monday on Thursday. I listened to the radio transmission and decipher the message and and it said pretty much. Hey listen we have reason to believe that the FBI is Tracking down you got to come home quickly. Let's range for a drop operation. So you can the money on a passport to get out of there and then then it said please confirm reception. I did not confirm and so one day. I'm waiting for the train. Who was probably about six thirty? Six forty five was still dark outside and this Short guy dressed in a in a like code inside us up to me and you've got to come home or else you dead. I did not at the time interpreted is to be a death threat other than just like you know you dead. Union your cover's cover's blown you now knowing the history of the KGB. The death threat was still a possibility could nipping nipping discounted. But guess what I got on the train. I went to work at that point. I made the decision to stay and I wrote them because it was clear that I couldn't play for time anymore so I wrote a letter in secret writing telling them that I can't come because I have HIV AIDS. It was the second biggest light in my entire life and was very successful. Oh my God we don't want this guy back in the Soviet Union or in East Germany. So they actually. They bought into this hook line and sinker they. They went to my family and told them that died from AIDS and they gave them some of the savings that I had. I didn't know that they would buy into this. I hope they would but you know I also knew that they really did not deal with defectors very kindly so for about three months. I made sure that I was unpredictable. As to my time and location so I would I would go to work and different ways. I would go at different different times. I could because I had flextime and after three months nothing happened. The FBI wasn't knocking on my door. I just I became a normal of our consideration. Started looking about buying a house within about a year I was in the suburbs so we had another child and I became an American. It was only Chelsea with regard to the economics. My Life at that time and East Germany would have been better than here. I would come home as a hero. to to also about sixty thousand dollars worth of savings a fortune on the other side of the Iron Curtain and on top of it. I was a well trained agent. I was going to do some more travelling. I was going to be a courier. I was GONNA go over the world because I was one of the best trained agents at ever had. There was nothing from my own personal selfish view. That said. Don't go oh the only thing that said don't go with Chelsea. There is no other explanation. But what is called unconditional love. This is the biggest force in a person's life. I believe Mike Samples certainly not the only one ultimately. It's all about the L. O. V.. He we are here to love others. I met some people who who told me that. I've always wanted to be one of those people number one don't do it to Number two it doesn't it is not worth at number three even if you even even if you think you are serving a good 'cause you'll main not really changed the trajectory of the world. Going going forward it will do tremendous damage to your psyche which you will have a hard time dealing with and I'm not just talking about got myself. I have met about a handful of people who did something like me where they had to pretend to be somebody else. We have one thing in common common. We're suffering as human beings is not worth it. Do something good for your neighbor. Do something something good for your family. Do something good for a whole bunch of people. Just don't pretend to be somebody you are not Jack Barsky is a former. KGB sleeper agent. He wrote a book about his experience called deep undercover my secret life and tangled allegiances as a KGB spy in America I spy as a production China Foreign Policy Are Executive Editors Dan Ephron Rob Sachs and Amy Mackinnon help produced today's show. The interview with Barsky was conducted by Amy Mackinnon. If if you have tips or suggestions please write to us. I spy at foreign policy DOT COM. If you like the show please subscribe on your favourite platform and leave us. A review foreign policies subscribers can go to our website to hear bonus episodes of ice by with additional excerpts and interviews this week we'll talk to the FBI agent who exposed exposed Barsky the to our nell golfing buddies. If you're not a subscriber go to foreign policy dot com slash subscribe for access access to all of the magazines great content next week on the show. Israeli Massad operatives set out to assassinate the leader of the Palestinian group. Moss butter are forced to save his life instead. So what was developed very rapidly was some kind of poison that once it's being being sprayed on somebody's skin. The person reliever shortly after death feel dizzy will go to sleep. And we'll never ever wake up that episode next week on. I spy I'm Margo Martindale.

KGB Barsky Barsky United States Barsky Moscow Margo Martindale FBI East Germany Chicago Berlin Ronald Reagan Soviet Union Jack Barsky Chelsea Afghanistan University of Vienna Kansai Zena Best Restaurant Zeh
286: Jack Barsky | Deep Undercover with a KGB Spy in America Part Two

The Jordan Harbinger Show

50:57 min | 10 months ago

286: Jack Barsky | Deep Undercover with a KGB Spy in America Part Two

"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger as always here with producer Jason to Filipo on the Jordan. Harbinger your show. We decode the stories. Secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turned. There was them into practical advice. That you can use to impact your own life and those around you. I want you to become a better thinker and see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave if you're new to the show we've got episodes with spies and CEOS athletes and authors thinkers and performers as well as toolboxes for negotiation public speaking body language persuasion and more. So if you're smart and you like to learn and improve you'll be right at home here with with us now. Part Two with Jack Barsky. We are back with Jack Barsky author of deep undercover my secret life and tangled allegiances as a KGB spy by in America. If you haven't heard part one go back now and listen you don't WanNa miss that and you're depriving yourself of an amazing story. Says one of my favorite the episodes of all time last time we were here. KGB's by Jack Barsky had left his family in east. Germany gotten schooled in Moscow and how to be an American or act like an American. He's just landed in Chicago. Stolen the identity of a deceased American child in order to pose as an American now in part to. We're going to learn how how he assimilated to American culture and speech how he managed to fool everyone his family his friends his work his frigging wife and kids into believing his identity as well as how Jackson double life started to wear away at him. And how the allure of communism started to wane in why he decided to stay and become a real American and as well as how he shook his KGB handlers in the Soviet Union got him off his back but of course once past always comes back to haunt us. And we'll hear about that as well. Well right here on the Jordan Harbinger show. If you WANNA know high managed to book all these amazing people about networking and tiny habits and consistency six minute networking. It's free Jordan harbinger dot com slash. Course go check it out. By the way most of the guests on the show they subscribe to the course and the newsletter. Come join us. You'll be in great company. Okay here's Park You with Jack. Barsky I WANNA know is it not also applicable to communism in fact to me this sounds like the motto for Communism Awesome. It's too good to be true. So it's not true yeah except under communism. They won so many opportunities to be taken for a fool. You were taken for full as far as your entire way of life was concerned but there weren't any shady operators. That could come up to sell you. Something that was so special a showdown as many there were some and by the way even capitalism. You know I know people with WHO I can do. Business on handshake. For instance by publisher if this were Society I would do another book just based on a handshake but in New York City. It's not very likely that you find white people like that out in public. Who Promise you a great deal definitely not what were some of the initial differences you saw between living and capitalism in New York capitalism H. Q. Versus under communism? There must have been some things where you holy cow. I really miss this about Communist society or this is so different that that sticks out right away to be honest I did vis anything. I really didn't miss. Anything would be more of a WHO. Who Am I missed was friends not so much family friends? Mike German wife but as far as way of life there was nothing to miss. I didn't even being a chemistry. Professor is one word supermarket the variety of food that you could bet there was astounding. The other thing I missed was German food. It was quite indicative when I had my first real apartment with a little kitchen. The first meal was boiled potatoes. Man We have those despoiled potatoes and butter. Now you got a job as a bike messenger and you're making deliveries all over the city. You once made a delivery from Russian tea room to Dustin Hoffman. The Dustin Hoffman. No that he came face to face with KGB spy of course not any by the way he was not highly regarded by us. He didn't tip. I was very cheap cheap. The Russian tea room was his favorite restaurant and he wasn't a hospital. I don't know what the reason was. That's incredible that's so funny. Doesn't often multimillionaire doesn't tip got got his food delivered by the KGB. So did Jacqueline Onassis. I never got to see her but I had a carpet. Sample delivery So there was some tenuous touch coins between the KGB and so rather famous people but they didn't amount to anything and you get married in Nineteen naty actually and you have a kid with girl. Linda how do you compartmentalize your two identities at this point. Right you've got spy mode and then you've got Jack Barsky American guy with a wife a kid mode. Does that not 'cause you just ridiculous amounts of stress and so when you ask the question how I can't add to but I did. It's really odd. This is one of the things that I had to really analyze. Whether that was true which nowadays I can say with some confidence that I had manufactured annual factored adult personality to some degree not fully and that was really clear about six years into my career. Here's an agent. So every two years I would go back and spend time with Kalinda that point my son. It was great to be home with great to meet my wife. If wise still loved very much my son have driven food drink. A lot of good beer felt like home termine again and so. This is what happened happened when I went back to the United States and I usually would not arrive in New York. City usually was a different airport so as to not run into people that know me as Oh had wait a minute you come from Europe. 'cause I was traveling on a different David false passport. So let's say I would touch down in Washington. DC or in. Boston get off the plane late night here. American English will be home because I already had the start of a good life. I started a career as a program on that work for Metlife I love. I love my team. I loved what I was doing. A had become so accustomed to the American way of life. Clearly not enough to ultimately stay here. Some people misunderstood understood that because I loved the American way of life of lease nice date was Chelsea my daughter but this certainly helped to a degree because I had Americanized to a large extent already after six years. Tell us about the process of Americanization. He started working at metlife. You make friends with this guy. I Patrick Year Insurance Job essentially starts to change your ideology. Can you walk us through that how that happened as I say. The book is one of the most evil entities entities that of capitalism to us as we were told in East Germany in those days. What the insurance companies? I had no idea why they would. Zero in on insurance companies was banks insurance. The company's Wall Street these days epitome of Capitals Evil. Greedy money quarters and people played others first of all. I spent three years in college the United States and that was interesting but at that point I still didn't know what it was like to be at work as an American I got my first job in an insurance company. I like the work. I mean programming for the first time in many years my brain got engaged again. I was allowed to do logic. I was allowed to create eight and then I met so many smart people and they were all really good people. They became friends. The other thing is metlife. In those days was a mutual company knows that but in those days mutual companies were extremely paternalistic. They didn't pay that. Well but they treated you really well D- Untold Compact was. When you find employment there you have a job for life and you will retire with a Golden Watch a great pension and then between you have dot security at metlife even gave us free breakfast lunch dinner if you care to eat three times out of their kitchen so that was completely contrary to what we we were told by then about the evil of the insurance companies on top of it? You know my bosses for all nice and he and I couldn't find anybody evil eye nude sort of that. There were some and they will probably in government in the highest level of American industry but at least down at the level of the work of be. I didn't feel exploited. That was a big change in my fundamental ideology and at that point I had shifted from being an ardent communist this to sort of becoming a socialist not too far away from where Bernie Sanders is. Nowadays that's interesting so you sort of shift from this hardcore communism. Awesome to all right. Let's just make things more fair for everyone. Like you mentioned Bernie Sanders. More fair sure. Capitalism is not a bad thing because it creates. Well we just WANNA make sure so. You know it's more evenly distributed. And interestingly enough there was a street that became pretty strong in eastern European Communist. Party's was called in convergence. Theory by which capitalism and Communism was on a path to converge becomes some kind of a happy socialist kind of conglomerate and this was actually also that had infiltrated the KGB. Because one of my handlers actually volunteered that to me without me even talking about it he says. Oh by the way CONVERSI- series words at and that's Gorbachev Wow and this ultimately how the Soviet Union eventually disappeared softened softened. It became very soft in its ideology and became therefore very vulnerable to to be over with. Now you started to feel at some point like spying was actually getting in the way of your job which I thought was funny. If you have friends who work in information technology you probably know what I'm talking about us. Worker bees who operated computers and computer systems often on call twenty four seven. A desire to do a good job of my competitive spirit was was focused on doing a great job for the company that started paying me very well and that included over time weekend word late night word night calls and all that and then I had to do. There's other stuff you know and when I talk about this other stuff there was tipping point. It would not at the beginning but when I started kicking in and became a really valuable contributor. It took about two two years when I knew that I was really good and I was appreciated by my bosses. That's when my focus shifted towards doing a good job for mid life rather than the KGB. Not Be and it became a nuisance. The communication as well as surveillance detection all this kind of stuff takes a lot of time in takes phenomenal amount of time. So what we're join US talking back and forth the information that I just give you for me to actually hand that amount of inflammation to the Russians. I would have to write it down. Take a picture. Put an undeveloped film into a container. Ask for a dead drop operation. Make sure that I'm not being followed. Dropped his thing some place and wait great to see that the person actually picked it off and as a sign some place that they picked it up the whole operation end-to-end not real time but end to end would take a are we to all kinds of activity in between that interfered with my real job so to speak so funny sitting there doing the insurance thing programming something something that you thought would be a aside cover and now they're saying hey we need a full report and he thinking these guys what a pain. It's so funny they're communicating with you. On the shortwave. By the way they're communicating with you. On the shortwave radio. Right how is it done. What are they saying? Because they're obviously not saying. Hey come in Jack. Barsky spy for the Soviet Union. What are you listening for on this radio? If you watch the Americans Americans. I saw this one scene where they were actually listen to spoken digits. Five six four eight. Interestingly enough there seems to be an international national standard when it comes to encryption there's always a set of five digits so whatever is transmitted as in digital format and there's five groups of five Kohout is is used by the CIA was use the KGB has probably used by everybody. I don't know why but there may be a good reason to have these of five so no I would get digits transmitted as a write in the book that started in never changed. It was nine forty on a Thursday night just prior to nine forty four about tweet tweet minutes and I know the frequency tune into but in case to make sure that I truly find it there was a signal that had three letters or digits that indicated that the transmission was for me and then the whole thing started and sometimes it was pretty long. Sometimes it took a good hour to actually listen to the the whole thing in write it down and then took another three to four hours to decrypt this thing. And when I got really mad was when at the very beginning of this radio Graham I get something like congratulations comrade Blah Blah Blah on the international workers. Day You may I. I don't think the stuff that's clearly. That's a bureaucrat. Writing this in four minutes and then they don't realize it takes four hours to do. It was a bureaucrat. It was an ideologue as somebody who didn't think. Thank boxer couldn't empathize with what it was like to be me. Jeez yeah never was in your shoes because I'm thinking like look. This is shortly radio. Obviously anyone can hear that but it's encrypted and I'm wondering if it's just random letters and numbers because when I was a kid I would go up north and be stuck in this dumb cottage and so we had a short wave. Radio was old is probably from the sixties or seventies so. I'm a kid in the eighties and I'm listening to this and I'm here in other languages. I'm just wondering. Is there any chance at all that I heard something that was intended for us five because the eleven year old alden me is extremely stoked at the idea that I might have heard something like that as a kid. Oh as a very good chance that you heard something that was encrypted. No doubt I mean first of all. It isn't just undercover agents. Agency's do other agents that need to get a quick message in this. The quickest way of transmitting something and you transmit encode even as we speak. I guarantee you if you uh-huh traverse the short waves you will hear digits being transmitted that are meant for somebody that is doing something that is not entirely legal in the place where he's doing a while. Yeah because of course people think oh you just use the Internet for that you could but was shortwave. It's broadcasted you can never pinpoint the receiver. which is the point right? That's one thing that's correct. You don't know the general direction guarantee you the NSA new there's a guy you're someplace in the northeast who's getting this every week. But that's all they knew there was no way that they could trace it back to be. They could probably trace it back to where it originated. But I don't know if possible with short with on the the Internet there's all kinds of things shortwave still does break down. The still has problems. At least as a fallback shortwave. I guarantee is still being used interesting using. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger. Show with our guest. Jack Barsky. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by hostgator. It's eleven o'clock. Do you know where your website is. 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It's just means that you get all the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player. So you don't miss a single thing thing and now back to our show with Jack Barsky. How did you flip eventually? Essentially becoming full American. I know they tried to call you home. Can you take us through that. There was never a written plan for how long I was going to be the United States. It was all verbal in it was okay go back for another two years. Go back for another two years. Sort of the unspoken term was GonNa do it for about route ten years. Then you come home with do something else. So I wasn't my tenth year at that time I had two families might Drummond family and I had married a young lady who was originally from South America. We had a child together. Something happened and neither the FBI have a clue. Why the Soviets at that point so that might cover was about to be blown in? I am absolutely convinced that they were sincere. In their belief they called me back and they called. Hold me back as an emergency departure. That could have been a ruse right because they've done this in the past. Who called back an agent and as soon as stage depth on Soviet soil? They are you're jailed or even executed now that the execution team was in the past but Stalin did a Lotta even after Stalin. Some of that happened when they would call back ages. Listen and they know that there was something wrong with that I listen come back you endanger they go back and boom. That's what the danger was. I know that this was not the case with me because I was in very good standing joining in the fact that they followed my requested. The honor my request to give the money. That wasn't my account to my Drummond. Wife indicates to me that I was okay with them for some reason they thought somebody knew about me on. My caller was about to be blown which I didn't believe. I had no indication that somebody was focusing on me but you never know. I was now in moral dilemma and the moral dilemma was. Can I leave this. Eighteen month. Old Girl to fend for herself with the mother who who didn't have much of an education. She came from a very poor country in south. America and Chelsea daughter's name would have grown up most likely and then some kind of poverty. That was the rational thinking but you know this is also when you are there at birth anew watched him grow for father it takes awhile to bond with the child and I had really bonded with a child for the first time that I felt. Unconditional love even when I was in love with the women in Germany that there's always an expectation of getting something back this was unconditional love and that was ultimately too strong against all the factors that spoke in favor of me. Going back can following the orders by the KGB's so I decided I would defy the men not returning. I was GONNA ask how you weigh the pros and counts but it sounds like once you've bonded with your child. The pros are stay with your child in the Khazar. Look you've got people back in Germany but you know that Chelsea needs you more than they do you from the sound of it. Well the pros going backward like purely selfish. They were in favor of going backward who was not even close. I had money saved on my county. It was a lot of money you know in those days. Sixty thousand dollars on the other side of the curtain was a fortune. The Russians had promised me a house and I was going back a hero and rejoined my family. You put on one side of the scale on the other side you have three things you got the FBI possibly chasing to me the KGB. Not being very happy with me not going back and then it was Chelsea. Wow think about that. I have in the recent past occasionally questioned my honesty with regard when I tell people what I just this told you. My honesty has to the motive. And whether uncovering something up but these are the facts. These are to stand provable. Facts because us. I know that the Russians gave my German family the money as I asked him to. So I wasn't good standing and it was a chance that the KGB the FBI would have to to make and that the KGB would not be very happy with me defying the orders to return and the only counter to all that reasoning was my love with Chelsea. This is align. That's used very often very often unthinkingly but to love conquers all prove that I would imagine I mean look the KGB wants to kill you the FBI if they can find you put you in prison probably for the rest of your life maybe not for the rest of your life but they certainly would send you back to Russia where the KGB would probably jail or oh kill you. How did you get away with that? You had an encounter with the KGB at one point before you're kind of blowing them off right. Can you tell us about that. y'All took me a while either. Just like when when you have a really really hard decision to make life. Do you have two alternatives and neither one is really that great so you kick the can down the road until there's a wall at the end of the road and you can't kick it anymore because if you do it converted back to a hits you in the face so that's what happened. I was stalling. The Soviets is like pretending that I didn't get their message. And there's all kinds of reasons why you might not get their message. One of them would be. The radio is broken. or The shortwave. Wave reception was awful or I was sick for a while as possible so I bought myself time for several weeks and then one day they put an end to dead Ed and that they send one of their residents agents to actually tell me what the orders were and he said to me. You've gotta come home or else few dead. The reason that they knew was I had to give him the route by which I go to work so they know exactly how I would go to work every day. And that's where he caught me on the subway platform platform one early morning around six thirty in the morning and he said exactly those words and that was up to me to interpret what that meant but could have meant. You know your debt your cover's blown and he didn't use the right word or was a threat now he had to take the threat seriously because the KGB in those days did did kill. And I know that my hand was forced at that point. I knew that they knew and they knew that I knew there was no more kicking. The candidate was the proverbial wall. I I love telling that story because I think I should be in the Guinness Book of World Records. I resigned first of all. I don't know how many people resigned writing assignment with the KGB. Secondly I use secret writing. I wonder how many people in the history of man go to resignation letter in secret writing probably anyway. I wrote them this letter. I understand Dan. You want me to come back. And I'm not coming because I have contracted aids and this is the only place in the world where I could get treatment. Sorry I will not defect. I will not betrayal secrets and please give the money on my account too much family. Wow and of course you didn't have as you just thought I'm going to get these guys off my back by telling him might have disease. They don't want in their country. Yeah and I made a pretty believable I even the virus back to somebody had profiled previously. So they knew a name came from whom I got the AIDS virus because I told him that she had a previous boyfriend. who was a drug addict and she caught it? Bingo and AIDS was really the really scary thought fall of us but even more so behind the iron curtain because Russian Soviet's communists new age was indicative of the downfall of Western society because the immorality in the West so at work. It's incredible and they just left you alone after that and then now everyone everyone to the outside of you. Nothing has changed but in your mind. You've just left behind the KGB Soviet Union East Germany unfortunately your your family and friends and wife and son also in Germany memorial than your mother. He left behind your mother. But you've gained your American family and ostensibly you've gained your freedom and finally in the freedom thing grew on me very slowly. By the time I made the decision I sort of like really narrowed mile horizon. How was out of the spy game? I was off the stage of the international scene and I was just going to dedicate my life to who my family and so when my American wife suggested that maybe we should look into buying a home. I got serious by the way. I also signed up for four one K.. Hey which hasn't done before another sign that something was a little odd about this fellow. You know why doesn't he sign up for free money. Well I know I couldn't get with me I. I signed up for that and I discussed with my wife to have another child. We moved to a northern suburb of New York and within the birds. Four or five months my son was born and so he The perfect American family husband with a good job pretty lengthy commuted Nice House. Two children career opportunities career was going well and that is why I was for a while. I didn't want to hear anything about ideology the world politics and so forth but when the Internet allowed to do searches I started poking around and I started looking obviously the wall. Come down a year. After I resigned I started in trying to figure out what was East Germany. Actually all about and there's enough truly authentic information to be found about East Germany. Because of the way that it fell I was very much disabuse of any residual idea that we were actually doing the right thing. We just had the wrong leaders. And so that's why I was at until the FBI. Caught up with me. And then I had to face my past and really figure out who who am I it. How do I relate to this country that I'm living? Yeah I wonder what did you think when the Berlin Wall fell. And what was the most shocking thing you learned about your former government after finding reunited Germany and having access to things that actually happened in East Germany when you were growing up their own when the wall came him down I watched it. As if it didn't generate emotional response had no impact on my life because I knew I would never go back to Germany. Germany might passport. Application was denied twice or at least I thought the second wasn't denied but I never got the passport. I don't know what happened was stolen or lost in the mail but I didn't WANNA go anywhere new State Department again to not risk being detected as an illegal still so I looked at this and I was like interesting getting waters too bad and that was the end of that but as I said when I started doing my research that one thing that was just like hit me over. The head was the pervasive surveillance. Elon's of East German citizens by the Stasi well depicted in the movie. The lives of others. I had no idea as a matter of fact when I live. There studied there and briefly worked there. I was not aware of anybody who was a victim of Stasi ECHINACEA's or anybody who did did that kind of war to spy on their co workers family and so forth partially because I was a member of the elite and where that didn't happen happen as often but partially I didn't block we. Probably if you look fine. I was at the point where I really appreciate the level of freedom that you have in this country used. I used to have an still for the most part. How and I realized that the entire nation was suppressed from the very tall and that the whole thing was a complete lie You're listening to Jordan Harbinger. Show with our guest Jack Barsky. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by ziprecruiter hiring. 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Your support of our our advertisers keeps us on the air into learn more and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard so you can check out those amazing sponsors visit Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals. And and. Don't forget the worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at Jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast. And if you're listening to us in the overcast player please click that little star next to the episode. We really appreciate it. And now for the conclusion of part two with Jack Barsky. It must have at some point. Bronx you a little bit. I mean not necessarily surely the wall but looking at this and thinking like wow. I not only lived there but you worked for one of the arms. That was in part responsible for some of this stuff well to be. He quite honest. United Lisa was able to rationalize my way out of it at least partially because I never did any of that. Internal spying and you know. It's very hard to say with. I would have if I had been asked. I can't say I wouldn't have. I don't know however that doesn't let me off the hook because I still did work to enable that very regime that did that. Here's what really got me and it wasn't too long ago. I did a lot of research in preparation of writing the book as well as public. Appearances have made. There's a book that I read called Stalin's hangman and that describes the history of the KGB. I kid you not. What page after page every page there somebody who gets killed? Sometimes it's one person sometimes. It's a group sometimes. It's a mass killing literally at one point. When I was like two thirds into the book I broke down crying because I realized that? What a evil 'cause I had served even though oh it was modified moderated when I joined the KGB but it still had its roots in that very evil that was perpetrated on the Stalin and so ultimately my journey to becoming a full blooded American did not end when I got my citizenship but it ended not too long ago when I realized that in my view this country still is today the only to hope for the world to become a Better World Watson all I'm not saying a great country country period but we're sitting on a foundation which is called the constitution that gives us the best hope for everybody who wants to have a good life to have have a good life? We're not there yet. But clearly there's no other country in the world other than really small manageable countries. Who might be there? But you know this is. It's a complete flip flip-flop from where I came from a web today. Tell us how you got caught because the stories just not complete until you'd like you said had to face your past Ya. Aw I thought I was in declare. We moved from the house in the northern suburbs of New York to some place. Pennsylvania with my job worked and I had a good career. Career was doing. Well I made it up to Retro Eddie. I made six figures and I know that I would live out my life as a corporate employees would go on on vacation only within the United States because I wouldn't try to get a passport and My mind was at when one day I was stopped. The other side of a toll gate crossing the Delaware River it was initially it was a state trooper had routine stop. We would just like to check your license. Vegetation includes you step out of the car. Is the car still not having a clue what was going on and then I see out of the corner of my eye somebody approaching me from the back there. There was another vehicle parked there before I could put two and two together fellow introduce themselves Riley FBI and he showed me this badge. Look to talk with you. What do you think at that point? Let's go on through your head right then. I didn't use the word but something like this Bam I mean. It was like the floodgates floodgates opened and it was a Russia the entire collected past was descending on me. 'cause I know I was in big trouble. I had no idea how big it was but was not prepared. According to WHO is now my friend Rally I handled it pretty well. You know I could have completely collapsed. Pee My pants and you know curl up in a fetal position which didn't happen so once. They had me in their car. We drove for about a minute First Question I Asked am I under arrest and the answer was no. Why didn't know what that meant? But you know I was being detained for sure. I didn't have a choice then within another minute or so I you said so. What took you so long? I have no idea you know. This was my intrinsic sort of instinct to break the ice. I always do do that. And sometimes it doesn't work really well you you crack a joke with somebody who is like on the other side and you think it could get contentious and you could have a tough relationship. You make a joke. DOC chuckled a little bit in. I think it helped break the ice clearly. This wasn't one of those things where you mastermind situation on. Your cruel will comment collected like in a movie a hey what took you so long deep down inside you thinking. Yeah I'm GonNa play these guys know. It was instinct just to get back held. They found me. was you know another one of those one. In a billion odds there was a defector that used to work in the KGB archives who defected to MIT MIT five thirty British version of the FBI and brought with him. All Bunch of handwritten notes and amongst those nodes was a blurb that says Jack Barsky on the cover New York region. Oh man that's all. They had at the Russian agent had found a gravestone with the name of Joe Smith. They wouldn't have found me but they're not too many Barsky in this country. Wow Yeah in. One of them died as an infant and the other one. Is You hill at least in that area the same guy. It's not the same guy but it's the same name and so not finished because there's also another chain of improbabilities abilities but it finishes a lot of improbabilities in my life where you shake your head is a really that happened. And I can't claim credit for any of that. The fact that I became became public figure had nothing to do with me. It would people who knew people who knew people ultimately it started with my wife who is from Jamaica. Okay so figure this one out. It's in the book and I don't want to go too far but all these weird things that happened that you know if you WanNa make them up as literature the people say well you know. That's a novel I lived at novel. Why aren't you in jail right now? That's what people want to know. Okay you get caught by the FBI. What are you doing here? Well you need to ask the FBI was signed off by the FBI director. I can only quote the FBI. Folks will give in response to that question. And I've done a couple of public appearances assists with the JOE. Riley was deleted aged on this case. Who Actually wrote the afterward for my book and his answer was Mr Barsky was a whole lot? More valuable to US cooperating. Than in jail he would cost US money and we wouldn't have gotten out of him. What we got in? That was valuable to us. And that's the answer now. Some people don't like that answer but it is what it is. These are the facts I give an addendum to the answer. You familiar with the witness protection. WPRO yeah we don't know how many kills are in the witness protection program but I'm willing to bet you are because let's say for instance that in a situation like the mafia if you can and turned one of the guys and you can catch ten but in return you put him in a witness protection program. Give Him as long as you know that this person can could be a danger to others that happens. This is a tough choice that the legal system in this country makes all the time incredible. I mean I have no problem with it. I assume they ask you about operational procedures. They probably looked at the crimes that you have done in thought okay. So he reported on how insurance companies work in the United States. I think we can get over that in exchange for. We're looking at your crypto technology the frequencies where they talked to you other people you might know who live here with those people look like that information seems much more valuable yeah yeah operational stuff and also just the knowledge that there was no additional threat that led back to me because in those days both the FBI in the CIA was smarting because there are a couple of moles in both organizations and when they originally heard about me that I was buried deep undercover. which is a rarity to begin with? There was some thought that I might be running an agent within the United States government and knowing that I didn't that was helpful to write right sure of course they've got to explore all the stress. You mentioned that you've spoken in public with the FBI agent. Who caught you? What's that relationship like? I mean he must know a lot about you because he he studied you for months and months and months and watched you for months and months ostensibly before he caught you. What's that relationship like? Where at one point I said to him? I said you know more about me than I remember. Because the debriefing process was extremely meticulous at went into everything what I remember about childhood personality. The people that I grew up with I mean it was six weeks intense if not every night but every other night and you know they took notes that folders we got to know each truggle we played a little golf to go and then we played a lot of golf to go and he's now the Godfather for my last child. This is incredible because this is a man who if things hadn't gone so smoothly would gladly put you in jail for the rest of your life or absolutely tray. Did you back to Moscow which would have been a death sentence and now he's your daughter's Godfather and you play golf off and this is proof to me that just because a person belongs to another group that may be hostile towards to go that you belong to. That doesn't mean that they're bad. There's a a whole lot of good and people who you think are your enemies. Here's another example. I have a good friend who is my age. He spent some time in Vietnam. Active combat duty at a time died when we were protesting the war and we knew that the war was evil in war was unjust. Warren was posted. America was bad. Never mind whether the war was good or bad but if they had called me into the army and possibly fight on behalf of North Vietnam I wanted to change bullet with this guy. He's a good friend. Think about attaching watching yourself to a group particularly a group that is ideologically motivated and hostile towards other groups. Most likely you're not gonNA be yourself itself. You WANNA give up part of yourself because you're now subject to judgment of Others Rupa take. That's it's one of the things I'd like to tell young people don't lose yourself. Don't lose your sense of cells as part of the group. Don't ever forget who you are interesting advice coming from somebody who's been many people that was probably one of the most stupid could come in so many of us given the made me laugh. You're right but so what else is new. You know my life has been a set of contradictions. Here's another one you caught me. uh-huh now coming from the inside. What do you think about Putin former? KGB being the head of modern Russia is all this series of educated indicated guesses. Then you draw a conclusion. There's no doubt that the ranks of the KGB during the time of the Soviet Union was populated by the elite of Soviet society. They recruited from the top universities. At a lot of these jobs were coveted jobs particularly the ones that allowed you to travel so Putin was part of that elite he actually resigned from the KGB but that was after the Soviet Union collapsed before four the KGB was officially dissolved than he started a political career now when the Soviet Union collapsed the wealth of the country both material wealth as well as power was distributed in some way and the Winston had a significant advantage. Were the elite. The elite were a lot of them will KGB and they wound up getting a big piece of the pie both as became the guards super rich people or became prominent politicians and who beat all of those in fighters and successful people out or the top job. Lot Of totent- now that tells you one thing. Don't ever underestimate him. Don't ever think he's your friend. Don't ever trust what he's saying because he's all about himself. I cannot say anything else because I don't know this guy very few people do yeah well he was. KGB Anyway stationed in East Germany so maybe did cross paths with them. You never know. I know he was struggling. Not Too far away. I grew up but that was the same time I was here. So we didn't cross paths Maybe a friend of mine who met him in some way who knows who knows. Wow this is phenomenal jack. Thank you so so much Zaza on Ganim mm-hmm. This was phenomenal. Such a big. Thank you to Jack Barsky. The book title is deep undercover. My secret life entangled allegiances as a KGB spy in America. I've actually kept in touch with Jack after all these years. No surprise this former. KGB spy turned American in is a great communicator and great at keeping in touch links to everything for him. We'll be in the show notes. There are also worksheets for each episode including this one at Jordan harbinger dot com in the show notes. And we've got transcripts for each episode. Those can be found in the show notes as well. We're teaching you how to connect with great people manage relationships. That's our six minute networking course. That is a Mandatory skill set for any spy aspiring or otherwise Jordan harbinger dot com slash courses. Where that is don't do later? Jack Barsky didn't procrastinate. Why should you Jordan harbinger dot com slash course by the way most of the guests here on the show they subscribe to the course and the newsletters? Come join us and you'LL BE SMART Company. Speaking speaking of building relationships you can always reach out and or follow me on social. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both twitter and instagram. This show is created in association with podcast. One this episode was produced by Gen. Harbinger Jason to Filipo edited by J Sanderson. Show notes and worksheets by Robert. Fogerty Music Evan Viola. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Sure our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own so in other words you know I'm not recommending you become. KGB's by. I might be a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer. I think anyone slur or otherwise might advise against spying for the Soviet Union. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show and remember we rise by lifting others the fee for the shows that you share it with friends. That's how we grow this thing alright. So share it when you find something interesting. This was certainly interesting. And if you don't think it was well I got nothing for you. Do Your best to apply what you here on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time for those of you who are interested in going to prison with me February. Twenty six twenty twenty. I'm going to bring a bunch of you to an educational program for prisoners their graduation so it's a big deal for them. This is such a life changing fascinating fascinating event. I have a little bit of additional details. I'M GONNA be emailing the interest list about this. You can get on the interest list by emailing me prison at Jordan Harbinger Dot Com. It's GonNa Abi February. Twenty six near Lake Tahoe so kind of near Nevada Kinda near California. This is a unique event that hustle. Two Point Oh has never done in the past. But I've done on the prison thing before it's not weighing that registration is open right now to a limited number of people it's going to be around one thousand. We're trying to get it below that that provides a twelve twelve months. Scholarship to one. 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KGB Jack Barsky FBI East Germany United States New York City Soviet Union Gen. Harbinger Jason Jordan Harbinger America Dustin Hoffman Chelsea Moscow Chicago Mike German metlife Stalin KGB Soviet Union Vietnam
Deep Undercover KGB Spy Jack Barsky.

Unstructured Interviews

59:24 min | 9 months ago

Deep Undercover KGB Spy Jack Barsky.

"Today's episode is with Jack. Barsky Jack Barsky has an incredible story of growing up in East Berlin and ultimately being recruited by the KGB to infiltrate the United States where he lived for a decade right under our noses. I think you're going to really enjoy This incredible interview where we talk about. Not only his living in the United States under another identity but the psychological logical implications in the toll the of taken on him so after you hear it. Tell me what you think can always reach out to me on twitter at unstructured P also on instagram under the same name or even facebook. But for now I'll bring you jack. Barsky my name is Eric. And this this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today I'm super excited to be joined by a former KGB. Spy I believe this individual Jack Barsky refers to himself as a reformed spy is that correct jack reformed retired reformed correct. I think it's a fascinating juncture. I WANNA start out by asking you as as a kid. You're familiar. Obviously how we have James Bond here and our own fantasies of what a spy is like what. What did you have in East Germany when you grew up as an example? I don't remember the names but we had the equivalent of of James Bond These were this is new rough translation a they were scouts for peace. They were primarily in and now a dividing line between East and West Germany and the primary enemy was what they were primarily heroes that would operate rate in the Germany and do damage there. And of course Do the right thing. We also had historic figures. Probably the most prominent one just recently a book appeared about him a zone. Richard sorge who wasn't an East German a a German journalist who was I don't know if he was officially a member of the Communist Party but he operated in Japan and Fed Stalin a lot of intelligence and when the Japanese caught him Stalin denied him and he was executed. Oh Wow but that guy that guy. If Stalin had listened to this guy He would have been much better prepared for the For the eastern front so these were our heroes and of course then there were the people that operated underground underground during Hitler's reign and that's a historic fact at most of the folks that operated underground not only in Germany but in France and Belgium autumn and so forth there will communist or at least Socialists. They were at the communists and the Socialists. Were the most. The most openly declared had enemy of the Nazis. They're brown shirts right. They're not brown shirts. Yes the the communists were usually associated with the color red so so we had our we had an largest sort of heroes to pick from a but the most romantic mantis ones where the widow is that you know I could become one of those. You know that you scouts for peace. Sorry were they. ROMANTICIZE is like James Bondy the women and the all that in the not as not as aggressively eh but they were romanticized but but in in such a way that seemed very real James Bond. You can't take seriously I mean even and even if you have half a brain you know that this can't happen to one person. But they were absolutely romanticized and and they had sort sorta superpowers as well in you know there were women involved and all that there was a series I think it was quote the iron visor or something like that that there was a series that we couldn't wait every Christmas the there was a about an hour and a half movie of an ongoing saga of one of those heroes and we will glued to the TV. I mean they weren't too many exceptions to that so yes. This was part of my ideological corporations nine point to ask that because then I think it's a great juxtaposition of that's what you grew up. thinking spy was or being entertained. A such and what did you find out. It actually was a day and night. I jokingly say the following so you don't say jokingly you don't think you know any residual arrogance but I do have something in common with James Bond. All My tweet wives were absolutely gorgeous. Still are but I'm now married to number three and and I hope you can hear that next door but I got the girl all right but you know the the serious part of questions as it was literally Dan night the to begin with I got no weapons training. I got no training in how to defeat a lie detector test I got I got basic operational operational training in spycraft fundamentally how to operate in enemy territory without getting caught and how to interact the center which is Moscow. And that was it. You Know I. I didn't even get cultural psychological training. None of that on the Russians decided and I know I noticed by now because there's a couple of interviews that were given by former calmer heads of department. s which is within the KGB was the department that Randy illegals these two former heads gave interviews with regard to what they were looking for in potential candidates and so they were looking for reasonably well developed raw material in young a young men and women that were in their mid to late twenties. Still Young enough to To actually take that risk but already old enough to take a calculated risk and be mature enough and I was one of those you know I. I can't explain this any other way. Nobody told me that. But you see the beat the feeling out period when I was first contacted by the KGB between that time and the the moment when they actually asked ask me to join eighteen months happened. So I was being thoroughly examined by the individual who I met with on a regular basis while I was still studying and eventually a teaching at university. Hearing that described from you Dan. You know from reading your book I would think it was very difficult to recruit a good fit if you will because As you but you have to be young enough to I hate to say young and dumb but you kinda too young and dumb right but yet mature enough to where you're kind of tempered but yet not so much sure that you're gonNA question ideology. It just seems like it would be a very difficult balance at It wasn't I I got you up. You're right it was a difficult balance the ideology. I did not question when you when you get fed ideological lies from the day you you enter. Kindergarten and from all angles of society are all the way up to a university. That's a baggage. That is very difficult to shed. Oh Yeah it's like it's like a religion for some people caress no absolutely and it was a religion we didn't we didn't have shrines. We we didn't Kneel down and prayed in front of Karl Marx and freighter angles but they were our secular. God's sure they discovered Marx Engels in later on linen They had discovered the laws of the world. And you see I was a trained scientist. We also studied scientific socialism in college. Now this is fundamentally idiotic. It's A. It's a contradiction in terms. But you know when you when you're that far into this this ideology you just don't question question in you know the science of the world was that you know communism would take over anyway so I just wanted to help out and accelerate the process right. There's there's there's a lot of It really sounds good. Looks good on paper. I actually was in Cuba in one ton of Bay in the late nineties when they had a very large mass exodus. I don't know if you remember that at all. I'm very familiar with that. I just started reading a book with and by the name of the author who Oy met who was. CIA Working in the Cuban situation and he talks about in the book about that exodus. What what what a mess that wasn't and and and how badly it's spoke for the Castro regime which by the way was to us while Still we'll east Germany on communism and the Soviet Union was a shining light and it would lead the way to getting all of South America into the Communist camp. Exactly yes there definitely was a pitch and cheek of ARA was gonNA free and That that's chilling bastard you. The truth was withheld from us. You understand that of course. Of course. That's what I wanted to discuss with you. Because I didn't a few would relate to it directly when I was caring for the migrants I worked in the camps that we had because they didn't I mean there's one hundred twenty thousand of them well and but there are just amazing people. I mean so amazing and I learned a lot of things like number one. I was working with the Cuban. Who is my exact act age? Only he actually had his degrees. He spoke English fluently. I could barely do any Spanish. And the only difference between him and I is where we are born and that you know that some real impact on me but through him I learned things like if they have a birthday party for one one of the children. They have to have multiple birthday parties because if more than five people get together. That's an assembly. Oh my God I didn't know it. It and I didn't know if it was similar. In East Germany the also had spies like every third or four th house almost there is a neighbor neighborhoods spying on them east. Germany we didn't have the prohibition to assemble spies the Stasi which it was the East German sake. Police had one hundred thousand employees and for each employee. They will probably three to five collaborators operators so everybody pretty much was spied on and for everybody. There was a file somewhere in the archives when when East Germany of fell apart the amount of paper that They were pulling out of these archives that the amount of paper that wasn't destroyed was phenomenal a nominal. Now the spying went so far as to undermining a number of existing churches and you had passed US reporting on their own community. It was that bad. I have to laugh a little Germans left to document. Don't Oh absolutely but I tell you about the Russians did too do. We can go back to the later. Okay why I understand. There was a nine volumes on you. I thought it was seven and in this case the fellow who actually is responsible for me single handedly responsible for me speaking to you today. Vassili Mitrokhin who who Who smuggled all bunch of information out of the KGB is because he worked there he had not much that he took with him about me but he apparently Saw Seven thick folders my name written on the back. Could you ever meet him. No that's a good question One of the reasons why would have been T- lived in England and you know it took the FBI. I quite a while to get out of the secret world and make me legal so you know I couldn't travel and he passed away right it so that was just not an was not an idea. I also didn't meet his His Co author. Because he he. He wrote two books with a a British historian Andrews. I've got first name. He's still alive he would be. He would be an interesting person to meet him by the way I was initially in in the book disorder in the field it's about KGB HEB activities in espionage and you know when when the FBI got older that they crossed my name out. Because I was still an active case. Oh okay okay. I have a question about that. Would you agree that getting caught was the best thing ever happened to you. Yes and and there's not even a close second absolutely I mean I I. If I didn't get caught I would have lived out my my life in the United States as a you know upper middle class individual with two children and the nice little home but never be able to connect back to my childhood. Never be able to travel to Germany. Meet my old friends earns and never be able to talk to interesting people like you. I mean since I got caught my life got incredibly interesting and I always wanted to have an interesting life and the espionage in life was only partially interesting. Yeah I just can't help but think that like living a lie however well it's going even though you're are you know nobody suspects you anything else you still know and that has to eat at you. Yeah in as far as deeply as you bury it. I'm still hoping one day to be able to talk to a really really a qualified psychologist about my dichotomies Personality my personality that that I had to acquire in order to to operate I come to the United States. I pretend to be an American. Can I speak English only and you know but but when I went back and I did go back go. Once every two years for some rest and relaxation Asian debriefing dreamt again that had an impact on me and the longer I live the more I realized that on all that baggage and all that all that secrecy and all that old that secrecy had had a phenomenal domino impact on me. And you know I'm GonNa go out on a limb and tell you something that that may help some people listening. I developed an alcohol dependency. I did and the funny thing is the first time I had a phenomenal. Amount of drink was the night when I first entered the United States to Chicago when when I went to the hotel and I had bought a bottle of Johnny Walker Red and I drank half of it right to to to just eased attention and be able to sleep and and that stuck with me for for a long time and it's It's a it's a struggle that This the daily struggle not to come to it. And I can't. I can't pictured I can only intellectually imagine what you went through crew but the isolation that you feel or felt It had to be profound because you were literally truly a fish out of water all right. So here's the thing I slowly wandered into this isolation saying And that he used to it. It's like you know that frog that is in the blue water. Slow boil saying because because I actually grew up as an an extrovert. I was the class clown. I was the leader of a band. And you know I played basketball. I love my team. I I was a student leader. What instrument did you play in your band guitar and I sang because the other three guys didn't want to horrible? Remember when we made a lot of noise so then I moved from a place where there was a team but was basketball team at work in basketball will and I moved to Berlin all of a sudden I was by myself B because all my training was on one I didn't go to work and the the friends did I acquired. Were sort of part of work because my one of my tasks was to just get to know people that I don't know in Macomb mm-hmm into friends and and write profiles on them. This is part of what part of the training. Then they send Moscow. That was probably the worst two years of my life. Because you know I went to a country where I didn't speak the language I understood stood well enough to to get around no friends. Nobody the only people I met whether people that I was working so so as I entered the United States it was almost a relief because I could at least speaks the language which which which did not you know get me out of the lone wolf mentality because he you know the first year in the US. I didn't work so because I needed to get my documentation to be able to get a job so I spent one year living. I'm by myself in a hotel and so what I did in order to not to Raise any kind of suspicion I would get up in the morning. Leave the hotel at eight o'clock and don't come back until six. I did whatever went to the movies. I went to explore the city but but I really didn't didn't have anybody to talk to him. There was no provision made for me to have any kind of contact with voice with Moscow. The only contact was two shortwave. Radio and then I worked two years as a bike messenger now. That was a group that I couldn't really relate very well to which is probably elite. Good though because as you put it they didn't care about you either. Everybody was so into their own thing is that they wouldn't even notice. If you did slip up correct and I I just by sitting and waiting in the office for another delivery and listening to their conversation and then going you'll be finding another another dispatchers in going to the race track with him and you know hearing about sports and the Yankees the giants. I learned the basics basics of being an American in idioms and different. Oh absolutely absolutely you. This is the kind of stuff you just can't learn from a country and eventually you know The first the first time I became a member of a team that was when I had my first job by first professional job as a computer programmer. But I've never lost my lone wolf mentality which is not good because I have been trying my entire life to fix all my own problems problems and sometimes you need help. Oh absolutely and I did WANNA follow up on that with the effect that you went into the it world you have mentioned that you're very much core German and have kind of an abrupt or in your face. Personality like German and Dutch are known for having. Did it help that. You are working in the it world where you had some aspirin jerseys type of people who kind of a little off kilter socially quite often anyway and might have been abrupt themselves else. I can talk about this for at least in Alabama. I give you two examples where. It wasn't helpful helpful the way I communicated and and WED was. I spoke English perfectly. I write it better than most Americans I still have have a residual accent but that was easily explained My mother had a German maiden name so I was not aware of my communication style and I had worked at my company for about three four years and I was doing really well. I love programming and one day. A friend of mine takes me and I still remember that day. I even remember where I was. It was on the second floor at Novus an empty room. And he says Jack I gotTa tell you something I am not gonNA curse on. That's fine on your show. I gotTa tell you okay if I may use a mild curse word everybody thinks you're an asshole and I don't have a clue was talking about so I was trying to be less of an S. O. but I didn't know where this came from now. Here's here's the flipside of the coin. My first management job. I got hired to fix the situation in a place where I didn't I know the people didn't know the technology I didn't notice city I was picked out by a new manager. I hadn't I think you can do this. Come over here in fixed scope nope and in in that situation might direct communication style might brutal honesty. Cleaning House did did very very well and I had three more in succession situations like that. The only problem is once house was cleaned. I was not longer longer needed. I was not longer wanted so I I. I've been telling my wife how this works. You know I I used to get this. Initially Amandus guys is like a breath of fresh air and then after about a year year and a half the air got a little stale and after three years it was a foul stench that had to would be removed. You know what I think. You are actually very entrepreneurial in personality and and by that let me explain for second. I'm guessing that you enjoy creating something and then moving onto the next item because you're intellectually always seeking the next challenge idea cetera but sitting there in actually having to manage what's already existing or what you've created. This is your worst nightmare. Maybe not the worst But status quo. Yeah I had A. I had several interviews for for a new job where I got along really really well with the the decision maker and at the end they would say you know what we we. Don't we need somebody to manage the situation. You're a change your change agent you. You wouldn't workout. You're you're right. I like to go into a situation and fix stuff. You know away I should. I should have paid a little more attention to fixing me and we all everybody has has things that work and you had external forces to. That's why I definitely am sympathetic. Obviously haven't been and through it again talking to the folks in Cuba and learning them and in Cuba to I had a an individual who was marine as a US marine. WHO's a Russian? So so he moved to the states when you seventeen thereabouts and he had a funny story which I thought you can relate to. Are you familiar with the United States Marines and basic nick training. And I know I know some I know submarines okay. That's the toughest training that I could imagine. Well they have something about out there. They're footlockers as in their footlockers. had better be secure or I mean it. It's one of the biggest crimes you can do. All Hell break loose. And he talked about how he left his footlocker on locked in basic training. And the drill. Sergeant just lit him up bringing the whole platoon. What is wrong with you? And screaming at him and he had to explain that it was a combination lock and he didn't know how to work okay. Eh described the drill sergeant having been down on the floor and go and go left go right after screaming at them up and down and that made me think of your twist off bottle cap story. Yeah that's another moment that I remember. I'm very vividly. I believe and you know sometimes memories of false but I believe I said at a table with four chairs and I can picture exactly where it said in an how the way to cut came up when I wave them over Anita bottle opener and he he was looked at me like making trying to make fun of me and he took that bottle in slowly twisted the capital of with a floor. Yeah I mean maybe he was playing along maybe he was thinking. What an idiot Maybe they don't have bottled doc. Twist off bottles where he came from and I spoke already like ninety percent clean English at the time right now what I wanted to ask you were there any other instances like that that tripped you up because I know that one spy got caught because he was holding flowers upside down when walking on his side no I can't recall any similar situation but I I can. I could tell you a number of situations that coulda tripped me up but nobody ever paid attention like you. You try to make me play in a softball game and I look like an idiot. I can't I can't swing a bat now you you put a soccer ball in front of my the right foot and watch me kick the ball. Because I just can't help myself so this is all very deep in the DNA and this would require somebody with phenomenally sharp skills to observe But I I can't recall offhand now. Another situation that made me look that stupid. Oh maybe here's one one so I come to the US. And I. I live here for about three months. And I'm going out and I meet a girl and we have dinner and I paid for dinner and after I paid for dinner See us. Oh so what do you do for a living. I said I'm unemployed employed and I I say I set this with a sort of pride no insertions. That's the word that comes to mind. Okay like you know. Like I don't really care Gotcha. And she went like oh I should have known I would have paid for the dinner. I didn't quite quite relate to what unemployment means. I know that's interesting. It did some of that helped culminate or change your opinion over time because that right there would imply something very different than the greedy capitalist. Well you know I I had to learn viscerally. WHAT UNEMPLOYMENT IS A? Ah Anna and I it was just something theoretical now now what changed my mind. The greedy capitalists is the way My my first company treated me. And that's on the record so I might. As well mentioned. The name of the company was met life at the time a very Turner Listrik Mutual Insurance Company but they were so nice to their employees. I mean they were really nice. We had free lunch and they paid well. All in the atmosphere was good started changing my hardcore attitude towards capitalism. Yeah I talked to Different people behind the Iron Curtain Otakar clicky of former guest and she had talked about how they had made up jobs. Like she knew this She had a friend who her only job was at a is like a carpet factory career blanket factory. Something like that and her job was to just turn it over on the loom every past hour or so and she loves the job because he just sit there smoking and joking with Oliver Friend rent but there is a lot of hate to say BS jobs like that did you have that kind of situation with the Everybody employed all we did and not I have first hand experience We my generation and year after us were in experimental to kind of program in high school where they The Communists Lena's thought the you know the future of the country should be members of the working in class to learn how you know what it's like to be working class so we went to school for three weeks the out of the month and then we went to a factory. In this case it was a large combined works whether you know whether liquefied coal and generated electricity until four thirty smelling big big planned and we learned to be machinists and I swear to God at least craft guys who were standing around. I did nothing nothing because all it took these things were fully automated. All it took to supervise. What was going on? There was reading the gauges into making sure that everything's imbalance. We we we we eventually got so bored be was also shifted ball by we let so bored in the summertime sweet four of us as snuck out of the plan and hung out in the woods all day. Nobody noticed that we weren't there. They probably were happy to have fewer to manage. Well we learned that you really don't have to work hard to to get paid in existent country now that that did not apply to everybody. Because as weak as the sermon economy was it wasn't as bad as some others that means somebody must have produce. Something wow I i. I'm so blown away by that. And I spend a little time in the army and that's why I was in Cuba but I was out at Fort Irwin. And we used to train as the CO op four because it was sort of like a desert training but we studied Soviet tactics and I learned different things in there like one on the Soviet tactics were phenomenal. Probably better than anything in the world except they had such a dependency on a chain of command that they would be paralyzed on the field. Oh was part of that tactic also to shoot people in the back. I'm guessing that's possible where they did their World War Two. Oh you know that I believe is stalling killed more people than Hitler. Yes what she this thing. They went when they were fighting the Nazis in the open field and it was just no turning back. If you if you turn back you would be killed by your own people. That that's how how that's how heroism was was forced. I was just like being sarcastic. They probably changed at a chain of command. Absolutely that is how that is is how the old men that were The head of the polit bureau have stayed effectively. Who couldn't stand straight anymore? Were still in power. That's why Stalin state and powerful too so long even though a lot of people knew that they were a in either evil or be totally dysfunctional. That's that is the extreme hierarchical system where you are not allowed to think and for yourself as if it goes against the mainstream sinking in ironically. What I learned from that is that was the most important difference since you know in terms of the battle? They're there to that was the first one and the advantage tactics wise that the US has it's a much looser command command. It's kind of like I want this objective. I don't really care how you get there but I kind of want that stuff there. And then that leaves a lot of choices to people down below. Yeah that's the way I used to manage the. That's the way I used to manage corporate America. I let I told my direct reports. Well this is. What the marching orders? This is how much resources you have go ahead and do did not. Everybody appreciated that. The ones that don't appreciate that kind of leadership style. The micromanaging insecure secure individuals. Who Know that? They don't belong where they are. That makes sense you kind of are contrary to the Soviet disciplined because you were sort of given that leash contrary I was I was given the freedom I I made. I Made Ninety percent of the decision. said the AH impacted my life as an agent myself. There was just no other way I had to make decisions. I couldn't ask my master's in even if I did through. You know. Communication of icy could riding in the mail that it just took way too long to get an answer back and it didn't know how to answer most of the stuff anyway. He is just one example. I think I put this in the book they. They didn't have a clue what it's like to live in the United States. And I I still remember. This is one of those moments when one of my handlers told me Jack and I wasn't they called me data than data is one one thing I gotta tell you when you get to New York you got to stay away from the Jews. That is laugh out loud funny right so so that means they. They really didn't know what they they were doing. And this is sort of think about it. It's almost like the keystone cops of of espionage. I am not saying the KGB was totally ineffectual ineffectual but most of their success is particularly at the time when I was operating out where achieved by walk INS by defectors actors from the United States or other countries for that matter the illegals program was totally ineffective. Really I wanted to ask. Have you had an opportunity to ever ever visit or speak with your counterpart who's a counterpart of I guess counterpart people who did your same job. Okay Yeah I met one and that was. That was very interesting so I I'm in Berlin Germany. visit the spy museum and I visit the museum together with Oj. They had just opened together with my son and his wife. And we are wondering around this guy and there's only a video of this guy who says you know I was an illegal agent agenda in the United States and I'm saying to my son I don't believe this guy so my son goes and looks up somebody in the office and ask. Is that that somebody else. Would you like to meet another one of those originals and they come out and introduce myself and so we established a relationship. In the next time I wasn't Berlin I was introduced to by the name of boycott. I won't give the last name because he is He's still semi-secret T.. Es doesn't want to be on public very much boycott went to the United States and he lived. He lived in New York City with his wife. He actually was able able to take his wife in a place called S Toria which was only about five miles of the place where I live. which was called is called Woodside? We didn't know about each other. A he came about five years after me and his only task was to just live in the United States red. I said to you know what I hate you because I had many other thanks to do I wanted to ask you about some of those. I know you wrote about flying to California and the professor that you you looked up but obviously without revealing things that may be secret. Can you give some general or mail take out the names or whatever you have to be curious some of the other things that maybe you didn't list Quite frankly there are none simply. That weren't too many of those tasks. And you see the one thing that was really really good at who was compartmentalization cassation. I was given just enough information to be able to operate which is not always a good idea. Because if you if you if if you don't you don't have a frame of reference very often you wind up making the wrong decision. And here's another thing. I found out I met a fellow fellow who lives in the United States now he he was a member of the. FSP GONNA office is. That's the new version of the KGB. We'll be right. Correct and the F. B. operates very similar to how the KGB operates because they weren't trained by KGB so you know what do you expect and he told me with reasonable certainty that there may have been only only one or two people in all of the KGB that really know my identity and most likely the individual who who made the high level decisions is about. You know where to send me what to do and what to ask me to do. Probably didn't know me by face. It seems wasteful. Yeah but it's that's how you keep a secret. Well yeah I mean the only way to keep a secret is to people in one's dead okay but okay but you know in the in the old rotate of resistance in the Nazi Times. The the Communists sales were organized in threes and there was one liaison that it was a liaison to another group of So it would have been very difficult to like erase Leeann Tire Organization and this is how this is how communists used to operate in clearly. It is significantly superior to the way the American intelligence works. Because you you leaders at the highest level. Oh that's true I mean I'm not praising the internals CIA has some pretty embarrassing history themselves. Sure but we're we're talking about nowadays. I mean there's lease coming not as much anymore out of the White House now. How's that that's just not acceptable? Especially when it comes to matters matters of national security and and that's one of the reasons I can't. There's a lot of things I can't tell you and what I what I have found out about my own existence ends and how the KGB operated is through people like Peop- folks from the FBI. That I know my my my new friend and newspaper interviews I myself was pretty dumb and blind. Suren I again. I don't blame you for that. I was just thinking that the expense of your training gene. And everything else to not really use you that much. That's when I would have saying when I'm like. It seems almost wasteful. Well okay so so. I don't know if they made it clear on the book. They had a really really good plan but unfortunately Fortunately with everything that happened in Communist and we all always had a good plan plan and then we failed to execute so used to plan being sent to the United States I acquire legal documents including a passport especially the passport that was experienced significant. That was the crown jewel and then I would have moved to. Let's say Switzerland Austria and then the plan was to set me up with the company and funnel a lot of money into the company. And you become Elon. Musk or somebody. I've become I've become reasonably wealthy. I moved back to the United States at that point. I don't have to tell anybody how exactly I acquired by wells. I just habit because I wasn't a successful businessman in the US. And at that point I I could have knocked to pretty much the doors of any country club and say hey you want to. And that's what that's when when I would have been able to do some damage but but because of the failure to acquire the passport that option that flexibility. It doesn't did not exist. I mean yeah I had to work my way up. You know twenty five years later I was actually positioned to do damage but you know I had resigned and Longtime before wow. It sounds like. There's a quote about war. That war is long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. Would that be similar to what you had no no. That's a laconic Noah. I'm sorry no no no I maybe I can. Maybe we will draw sort of a parallel. There were long periods of waiting and they were short bursts of action. But you know when you say war that now. That's too dramatic okay. Well a lot of seems like it was boring and I know you've described how it got to the point where the pike craft was tedious. Because it interrupted your day job it did and I'm not making it up. It did it because you know the computer programmer job was rather demanding and so I had to do the some of the things that had had to do with communication such as composing letters and putting secret lighting writing on them and then making sure that I'm not being followed writing a message and mailing. It took about six hours so that was now moved to Saturday so I didn't even have a social life and they did not understand this. Apparently there was no other choice. This is what they instinctively knew and there were a couple of remarks that I heard that indicated that they saw the shelf life of somebody like me would have been ten to twelve years because eventually you become the other person Okay so they assume that you would corrupt overtime yesterday. Dead but now what. They didn't know that that the corruption process was accelerated by having a baby girl in this country. Sure sure and I know that that that definitely changed every in the other person who was responsible for me talking to you she. She has to pivot points. And then it's it's the Mitrokhin fellow who brought the information about me to this country in when I was then apprehended. I can't help but wonder wonder too. Though if the timing of world history didn't factor in the fall of the Soviet Union had had to have an effect and I guess I'm asking asking do you think it would have been as easy to transition into being a full American if instead it was you know two thousand if it was actually nineteen eighty eighty. Okay so you you you making a good point My my staying here was not influenced by by the events simply because I had I had no clue what was coming I I- defied the KGB. You identified the order to return back home in nineteen eighty eight. The Berlin Lynn. Walsh fell in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine I I as well as the entire. CIA had no clue that that was coming. So that's number one number two. I had no idea that the Soviet the union was GONNA collapse to however and he has to. I think he is will question that you asked. If the Soviet Union and East Germany had still I've been stable countries They may have had more resources to find out what happened to me and possibly ably retaliate. They were they were way too busy to figure out what to do with the rest of their lives right and I was wondering wondering if you're welcome may have not been as warm if is in the middle of the Cold War versus kind of after on decide that is probably wrong because defectors have always been welcomed by either side there too valuable based on based on what they know in what they can share with a with a country that that did affecting to Now unless of course you're dealing with a killer or somebody who has committed serious crimes. I don't know how that would work. But but give you an example of a defector who I guarantee you was responsible danceable for a number of killings in and He he came to the United States as as a defector Maybe ten fifteen years ago. I won't name his name in public. He but but he is known He's known he's he's out out in public he's a he's an advisor to the Washington. DC Spy Museum but based on the position that he had indicates he be he must sign. That sentence is no way that that that didn't happen and he's he's still come here simply because he brought a wealth of information with him. Okay that's how it works on the spy world. You know you. Can you tell me what you know and I treat you really nice you know and some of the defectors will treat it a lot better than me they they. Will you know they would wind up in the witness protection program with a nice piece of chunk of money to start over. I and I just was allowed to continue my career. Perhaps because they didn't have enough tasks that they know it rationale. I understand that the the they literally didn't want to disrupt my family was so Americanized Americanized with two kids and a wife and end mortgage and a decent job and on and on to take out of the place where I lived in. Put Me Someplace in Utah With my children I think would wooded done a lot of damage to the kids. Oh yeah well you. You'd already done the job that they would be doing with the witness protection program or whatever you kind of did it to yourself herself. That's a good point without much help you know right so it's like well it ain't broken We'll just just we'll just leave it there. I WANNA reach back why did the KGB recruit you versus the Stasi recruit you. I see Initially when when I first came out in public I I guess that my first recruiter who spoke with me only twice overstock. Because because he was German I since Had developed some reason to believe that the first guy was a German collaborator greater for the KGB. Not Tell you who planted that in me. And I don't think that information make made it into the books folks Into the book. Maybe it did but anyway my my best German friend happened to be a new joined the Stasi eh and he became a major in charge of the Forgery Department and and he pretty much knew that the Stasi did not recruit on behalf of the KGB. He indicated that he may have had something to do with the with me being quoted a aw because he was he was approached earlier than me he was already a member of the Communist Party at the age of eighteen in I joined I was twenty so he was a. He was an early target in an interesting situation. He a year ago gave his first interview. Radio Interview Fascinating what he observed particularly in the last weeks months. Oh of East Germany in how everybody was flying you know running. I'm for the hills. Just I can't even imagine the transition had to be so Razi I mean think about So you sat unnoticed coming. But I know that I know the mentality because I was part of that thinking you you always knew that the communist system was better. You wouldn't let go of that belief you adjust hoping and praying for a better set of leaders because leaders and and so and then and one day the option of better leaders had disappeared. And now if you're middle age mid forties maybe even fifty. You've realized that you know the the cars you joined the life you had lived was either wrong or you're being wrong in the worst way so either way it it was like being hit over the head with a two by four so in that respect I I I was lucky because I- decontaminated very slowly. I mean the cognitive dissonance. It's kind of like getting them now. Democrats or Republicans to agree that the other one is right. That's a good one. It would be mass suicide exactly. I mean either way you go. It's like the more you information you give the more. They harden pardon this is both sides. Oh Yeah Yeah. It's it's group. Think in what they call the Echo Chamber that you're Believe in what you're saying. Whatever else was in that chamber Champion fan but saying closing your your your your ears. Let's just dangerous in. And that's fundamentally the danger of ideology because that's what it is ideologise colleges Hanging onto a belief without thinking and. Yeah on that note because we're heading that way I kinda wanted to close out and get your feelings leans on. There's a real. Shall we say new embrace of socialism in the United States or a desire for that. Have you noticed that not in thoughts. How can you not notice that it's frightening because This is based take on what this is based on on the non existence of a foundation history. Because isn't is the bottom line there it has never been a communist country ever in history because they they may have started out with the Communist ideology he but they all turned into dictatorships. Now let's go to the software side a socialism. Here's my my problem with that and trust me I. I don't believe you know. The capitalist United States is not GonNa Buzzer but socialism it if if you requires concentration of power near the top government so we are talking about collectivism and this is this. Is the problem in history. Collectivism eventually will turn into dictatorship because it needs to defend itself and and it's because he wants to make decisions on your on your behalf. Now there are some people won't like those decisions therefore it you start defending yourself and and you will be attacked. Look at what's happening in France until it Hong Kong. Oh yeah you know. More more more patriotic Americans Hong Kong possibly San Francisco. Don't quote me on that. You know what I'm saying. It's it's it's a shame but young people don't really know the the socialist less communist ideal is it's so wonderfully attractive. Why can't we all get along? I'm working with a fellow right now. Who is writing a book? And he's he's he's incredibly incredibly naive and I won't tell his name but he he's a wonderful guy incredibly naive and and and the fundamental idea that he's carrying with him. Is You know most everybody on the planet agrees to the road that the golden rule is a good idea. So why in the world have we not been able to achieve if peace and that is where we as human beings are just naive and we just want to believe that we can all get along long it in Kinda work this getting along needs to be managed and it needs to be managed in such a way that power is distributed. And this is where you know. Two thousand years ago the Romans figured this out pretty well and then founding fathers did that too and we're getting close to losing this and and I think that that would be the end of the United States as we know it like the Roman Empire Right. Well Yeah and we also oh see some signs of moral decay now. Not Everybody would agree with that statement but any anything and everything goes goes and there is no a the moral glue that holds society together. That's that's what I call moral decay. I'm not judging. That's not the point. If it's if it feels good good and I do it as long as I'm not hurting somebody else not hurting somebody else. How do you know that you're not influencing somebody to do stuff that it's really not good for them? We talking about legalization of drugs and all this stuff. This is all very complicated and you know we can only scratch the surface in a number. I'm not the scholar and But but I think the trend the trend is very dangerous and the trend in some respect is is led by people who are hungry for power. That doesn't mean that the other side is not hungry pile them in. That makes sense that I do think that the initial framers of the constitution and that they very much had in mind and they actually planned for and that was that everybody would want power and they wrote it in that manner what I feel they missed or did not foresee was what about those who want power but they don't want responsibility and with that we have a congress has abdicated half of the responsibility over to an executive branch. Well that is true We also have a political political class that the founders did not envision they send everybody home and now politician is this is a profession. That means you're you know gets it's human nature to be selfish in. I think selfishness. This is necessary for progress but it needs to be it needs to be in some way regulated so it is selfish for bureaucrat. To work really really hard to keep their job it selfish for a member of Congress to work really hard to keep the job well eventually the both the bureaucrats Andy politician Develop a distance from real life and they're not serving anymore. I thought that was pretty good. I think it's fantastic but sad. Actually sometimes I developed thoughts while I'm talking. You're brilliant guy. Hi On that happy note. I guess we've determined that the The stakes are dyer. Bad things are coming. Hopefully we can turn something around and people can find out more about you jack. Barsky DOT COM and my book deep undercover deep undercover. I do highly highly recommend that book. Thank you and Dan. Thank you for having an audio because I have difficulty finding time to consume books otherwise kind of the Bible. Yeah yeah I know and the by the way I I appreciate this interview. It was great challenged intellectually. I'm I'm just encouraging your listeners. To you know. Watch out for for me on link. Dan and facebook. Because I got some initiatives going that might people might find interesting. I don't WanNa get too much into detail. Okay I'll definitely definitely link both of those in the show notes and hey thank you so much for coming on I welcome thanks for listening. And if you like what you heard please consider subscribing for free and I mean for free it is always free. There's no billing anything else. You can subscribe in your player of choice which is probably right in your hands or you good unstructured pod dot com and there are plenty of links there thank thank you so much and in the spirit of sharing. Here's a couple more shows. You may WANNA check out. I did not grow up with very much money money. That really scares me yet about awed sixty granted. Money isn't the answer. Somebody should just give me a lot of money. My dream was to be the w wrestler but you realize that your dreams change over the years as a tool. It's key to gate and the gate is the things that you really want to do with your life. It's the things that matter most to you. It's pursuing lose values that make you ultimately Tapie listen to inspired money at inspired money dot. FM Torsten Awesome Franklin Lajos Dog. It's no secret dougherty which is a small business and marketing podcast each week or interview business leaders who openly share the secrets to to the massive success. It's nice it with Dr t will educate entertain and inspire you. Check it out. You'll find it where ever you listen to podcasts. Or you can go to my website. TOSS THEM FRANKLIN DOT COM.

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#106  Matt Botvinick: Neuroscience, Psychology, and AI at DeepMind

Artificial Intelligence (AI Podcast) with Lex Fridman

2:00:59 hr | 2 months ago

#106 Matt Botvinick: Neuroscience, Psychology, and AI at DeepMind

"The. Following is a conversation with Matt bought MIC Director of neuroscience research deep mind his brilliant cross-disciplinary mind navigating effortlessly between cognitive psychology, computational neuroscience, and artificial intelligence. Quick summary of the ads to sponsors the Georgian harboured show and magic spoon cereal. Please consider supporting the podcast by going to Jordan hard your dot com slash lex and also going to magic spoon dot com slash lexin using code lex at checkout after you buy all of their cereal. Click the links by the stuff. It's the best way to support this podcast and journey I'm on. Future. This podcast subscribe on Youtube View Five Stars and Apple podcast. Follow on spotify support on Patriot or connect with me on twitter at lex Friedman spelled surprisingly without the e. just f. r. i. d., M. A. N.. As usual few minutes has now never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation. This episode is supported by the Jordan Harbinger show. Go to Jordan Harbajan DOT COM SLASH LEX is hell he knows I sent you on that page subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcasts spotify and. You know where to look. I've been binging on his podcast. Jordan. Is Great interviewer and even a better human being I recently listened to his conversation, Jack Barsky former sleeper agent for the KGB in the eighties and author of deep undercover, which is a memoir the pants yet another interesting perspective on the Cold War era. I've been reading a lot about the stolen and then Gorbachev Putin errors of Russia but this conversation made me realize that I need to do a deep dive into the Cold War era to get a complete picture of Russia's recent history. Again, go to Jordan harbinger dot com slash lex subscribe to this podcast so he knows I sent you it's awesome you won't regret it. This episode is also supported by magic spoon low CARB KITO, friendly super amazingly delicious cereal. I've been on a kito or very low carb diet for a long time. Now, it helps with my mouth performance. It helps them my physical performance even during this crazy push up bra pull up challenge I'm doing including the running. It just feels great I used to love cereal obviously, I can't have it now because most cereals have a crazy Mazda sugar which is terrible for you so I quit it years ago but magic spoon amazingly somehow is a totally different things zero sugar eleven, grams of protein and only three net grams of carbs. It tastes delicious. It has a lot of flavors to new ones including peanut butter. But. If you know what's good for you, you'll go with cocoa. By favorite flavor and the Flavor of champions. Click the magic's dot com slash lex link the description and use code lex at checkout for free shipping and to let them know that you, they've agreed to sponsor this podcast for a long time. They're an amazing sponsor and in even better cereal I highly recommend it. It's delicious. It's good for you. You won't regret it. And now here's my conversation with Matt bought panic. How much the human brain do you think we understand? I think we're at a weird moment in the history of neuroscience in the sense that. There's a there. I feel like we understand a lot about the brain at a very high level. But a very. Very, course level. When you say high level, what are you thinking you thinking functional atheist structurally so In other words what is what is the brain four? You know what? What what kinds of computation does the brain do? What kinds of Behaviors, would we have to? Would we have to explain if we were GONNA. Look down at the mechanistic level. And at that level. I. Feel like we understand much much more about the brain than we did when I was in high school but it's a very it's almost like we're seeing it through a fog. It's only at a very course level. We don't really understand what the the neuronal mechanisms are that underlie these computations we've gotten better at saying. What are the functions that the brain is computing that we would have to understand you know if we were going to get down to the neuronal level and at the other end of the spectrum We. You know. In the last few years, incredible progress has been made in terms of technologies that allow us to see. Actually literally see in some cases what's going on at the at the single unit level, even the dendritic level, and then there's this yawning gap in between. Interesting. So the high levels that's almost the cognitive science. Yeah. Yeah, and then at the neuron, all level that's neurobiology neuroscience. Yeah. Just studying single neurons, the the the snap connections and all the dope, all the kind of neurotransmitters. One blanket statement I should probably make is that. As I've gotten older, I have become more and more reluctant to make a distinction between psychology and neuroscience. To me. The point of neuroscience is to study. What the brain is four if you if you if you're if you're a nephrologist and you want to learn about the kidney wh, you start out by saying what is this thing for well it seems to be for taking. Blood, on one side that has metabolites in it, that are that shouldn't be there sucking them out of the blood. While leaving the good stuff behind and then excreting that in the form of urine that's what the kidney is four it's obvious. So the rest of the work is deciding how it does that in this, it seems to me as the right approach to take to the brain you say, well, what is the brain for the brain as far as I can tell is for producing behavior from going it's it's four going from perceptual inputs to be real outputs. And behavioral outputs should be adaptive. So that's what psychology is about. It's about understanding the structure of that function and then the rest of neurosciences about figuring out how those operations are actually carried out at a at a mechanistic level. It's really interesting but so unlike the kidney, the the brain. The gap between the electrical signal and behavior. You truly see neuroscience as the science of the dead touches behavior how the brain generates behavior or how the brain converts raw visual information into understand like. Like, you basically see cognitive science psychology in your sciences. All one size. Is that a personal statement I said I'm hopeful is that is that a hopeful or realistic statement? So certainly, you'll be correct in your feeling in some number of years, but that number of years could be two, hundred, hundred years from now. Oh, well well, there's A. Is that an aspirational or is that pragmatic engineering feeling the you have? It's it's both in the sense that. This is what I. Hope and expect will. Bear fruit. Over the coming decades. But it's also. Pragmatic in the sense that I'm not sure what we're doing in either in either psychology or neuroscience if that's not the framing. I don't I don't I don't know what it means to understand the brain if there's no if part of the. Enterprise is not about. Understanding the behavior that's being produced I mean. Yeah. But out I would compare it to may be astronomers looking at the movement of the planets and the stars and without any interest of the underlying physics right and I would argue that the at least in the early days, there are some value to just tracing the movement of the planets and the stars. Without thinking about the physics too much because it's such a big leap to start thinking about the physics before you even understand even the basic structural elements of Roy. Agree. With that. I agree you're saying in the end, the goal should be yeah deeply understand well, and I I think so I thought about this a lot when I was in Grad school because a lot of what I studied in Grad school psychology and I found myself a little bit confused about what it meant to. It seems like what what we were talking about a lot of the time were virtual causal mechanisms like Oh. Well, you know attentional selection then select some object in the environment and that is then passed onto the motor information about that is passed onto the motors but these are these are virtual mechanisms. There metaphors there. There's no. There's no reduction to there's no reduction go going on in that conversation to some physical mechanism that you know. which is really what it would take to fully understand you know how how behaviors rising but the causal mechanisms are definitely neurons interacting I'm I'm willing to say that at this point in history. So in psychology at least for me personally, there was this strange. Insecurity about trafficking in these metaphors which were supposed to explain the the function of the mind If you ground them in physical mechanisms than what? What is the? What is the explanatory? Validity of these explanations and I I managed to I managed to. soothe my own nerves by thinking about the history of Genetics Research. So I'm very far from being an expert on the history of this field, but I know enough to say that you know Mandela genetics preceded Watson and Crick and so there was a significant period of time during which people were You Know Con- you productively investigating. The structure of inheritance using what was essentially a metaphor, the notion of a gene you know in jeans do this and jeans do that. But you know we're the genes there. They're sort of an explanatory thing that we made up. and. We ascribe to them these causal properties, others, the dominant recessive, and then then they recombine. In, and then later, there was a kind of blank there that was filled in with a with a physical mechanism. That connection was made. In, was worth having that metaphor. Because that's that gave us a good sense of what kind of 'cause what kind of causal mechanism we were looking for. In the fundamental metaphor of cognition you said is the interaction of neurons is that what is the metaphor? No, no, the metaphor, the metaphors we. In cognitive psychology are Things like attention Of the guys way that memory works, you know I-. I retrieve something from memory. A memory retrieval occurs. What is the Hatay No? That's not that's not a physical mechanism that I can examine in its own right but if we if but it's still worth having that metaphorical level. Yeah. So yeah, I misunderstood actually. So the higher level abstractions is the metaphor that's most useful. Yes but. But what about How does that connect to the? The idea that that arises from interaction of neurons were even it is the interaction of neurons also, not a metaphor to you is or is it literally? Like that's no longer metaphor that's that's already that's already the lowest level abstractions that could actually be directly studied. Well. I'm hesitating because I think what I WANNA say could end up being controversial. So, what I want to say is The interaction of the interactions of neurons that's not metaphorical. That's a physical fact. That's that's that's where the causal interactions actually occur. Now I suppose you could say, well, you know even that is metaphorical relative to the quantum. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. So is Turrell's on top turtles. Down there is there's a there's a reduction that you can do. You can say these psychological phenomena. Are can be explained through a very different kind of causal mechanism which has to do with neurotransmitter release and and so what we're really trying to do in neuro science large you know as I say which for me includes psychology is to take these. Psychological phenomena. And map them onto neural events. I think. Remaining forever at the level of. Description that is natural for psychology. For me personally would be disappointing I, want to understand how mental activity arises from neural neural activity, but the converse is also true. Studying neural activity without any sense of what you're trying to explain. To me feels like a at best grouping around you know at random. Now you've kind of talked about this bridging the gap between psychology in neuroscience. But do you think it's possible like my love is I fell in love with psychology and psychiatry. General with Freud and I was really young and I hope to understand the mind and for me understanding the mind at least that young age before discover day I, and even your science was to Is Psychology and. Do. You think it's possible to understand the mind without getting into all the messy details of Like you kind of mentioned to us, appealing to try to understand the mechanisms at the lowest level. But do you think that's needed? That's required to understand how the mind works. That's an important part of the whole picture but. I would be the last person on earth to suggest that. That reality. Renders psychology in its own right. Unproductive I trained as a psychologist. I. I. I am Fond of saying that I, have learned much more from psychology than I have from neuroscience. To me psychology is a hugely important discipline. And One thing that warms my heart is that. Ways of ways of investigating behavior that. been native to cognitive psychology since it's you know dawn in the sixties. Are Starting to become. They're starting to become interesting to researchers provider reasons. That's been exciting for me to see. He may be talk a little bit about what's what you see is Beautiful Aspects of psychology. Maybe limiting aspects of psychology I mean maybe just started off as is a science as field. To me was when I understood what psychology is analytical psychology like ways actually carried out is really disappointing to see. Two aspects. One is how few how small the end is how many small the number of subject is in studies. And to this appointing to see how controlled the entire, how much it was in the lab. It wasn't studying humans in the Wild Domingo mental is a study humans wild. So that's where I became a little bit disillusioned to psychology in the modern world of the Internet is so exciting to me the twitter data or Youtube data of human behavior on the Internet becomes exciting because the the N. grows and then in the wild girls but that's just my narrow sons like. Optimistic or pessimistic cynical view of psychology. How do you see the field broadly? When I was in graduate school it was early enough that. There was still a thrill in seeing that there were ways of. Doing there were ways of doing experimental science that provided insight to the structure of the mind. One thing that impressed me most when I was at that stage in my education was neuro psychology looking at. Looking at analyzing the behavior of populations who had brain damage of different kinds and trying to understand. What, what the what the specific deficits were that arose from lesion in a particular part of the brain and the the kind of experimentation that was done in that still being done to get answers in that context wh- the was so creative and it was so deliberate you know the Good. Science you an experiment answered one question but raised in other and somebody would do experiment that answer that question you really felt like you were narrowing in on. Some kind of approximate understanding of what this part of the brain was for. Example the memory of What kind of of the mind could be studied in this kind of way Oh. Sure. I. Mean. The very detailed neuropsychological studies of language. Language function looking at production and reception and the relationship between visual function. Reading and auditory and some MANTECH. There were these Butin. Still are these beautiful models that came out of that kind of research that really made. You feel like you understood something that you hadn't understood stood before about how language processing is organized in the brain but having said all that. You. Know I. Think I think you are I. Mean I agree with you that the cost of doing. Highly controlled experiments is that you by construction miss out on The richness and complexity of the real world. One thing that I I was drawn into science by what in those days was called connections, which is, of course the you know what? We now call deep learning and at that point in history neural networks were. Primarily, being used in order to model human cognition they weren't yet really useful for industrial applications. So you always found, you'll now works in biological form. Beautiful neural networks were very concretely. The thing that drew me into science I was handed. Are you familiar with the PD books? From from the eighty s some when I was I went to medical school before I went into science and really yes thing. Wow I. I also did a graduate degree in art history so I'm kind of explore. Art History I understand that's just a curious. Creative mind but medical school would the dream of what if we take that slight Tangent What did you did you WANNA be a surgeon? I actually was quite interested in surgery I was I was interested in surgery and psychiatry and I thought that must be I must be the only person. on the planet who had who is torn between those two fields and I I I said exactly that to my adviser and medical school who who turned out I found out later to be famous psychoanalyst and and he said to me no no, it's actually not so uncommon to be interested in surgery and psychiatry, and he he conjectured that the reason that people develop these these two interests is that both fields are about going beneath the surface. And kind of getting into the kind of secret I mean, maybe understand this as someone who is interested in psychoanalysis stage. There's sort of a you know there's a a cliche phrase that people use now on. NPR The secret life of blankety blank right. There you know and that was part of the thrill of surgery was seeing you know the secret you know the secret activity that's inside everybody's abdomen and Thorax, and it's a very poetic way to connect the. Disciplines. That are very practically speaking different from each other. That's for sure. That's for sure. Yes. So Zoo. How do we get onto medical school? So so I was in medical school and I I was doing a psychiatry rotation and my kind of advisor in that rotation asked me what I was interested in and I said, well, maybe psychiatry he said why and I said well, I've always been interested in how the brain works. I'm pretty sure that nobody's doing scientific research that addresses my interests which are. I didn't have a word for it then but I would have said. About cognition. And he said, well, you know I'm not sure that's true. You might. You might be interested in these books and he pulled down the. Books from his shelf and they were still shrink wrapped. He hadn't read. But he handed to hand the music. You feel free to borrow these and that was you know I went back to my dorm room and I just read them cover to cover and what's PDP parallel distributed processing, which was the one of the original names for deep learning. and. So apologize for the. Question what what idea in the space of neuroscience in space of the human brain is to use the most beautiful mysterious surprising. What what had always fascinated me Even when I was pretty young kid I think I was the. The the paradox. Lies in the fact that. The brain is so mysterious. And so in seem so distant. But at the same time, it's responsible for the the. Full transparency of everyday life it's the brain is literally what makes everything obvious and familiar and and? And there's always one in the room with you. I I used to teach when I taught at Princeton used to teach a cognitive neuroscience course and the very last thing I would say to the students was You know. People when people think of scientific inspiration. The metaphor is often will look to the stars. The, stars will inspire you to wonder the universe. And You know think about your place in it and how things work and and I'm offer looking at the stars but I I've always been much more inspired and my sense of wonder comes from the not from the distant mysterious stars but from the extremely intimately. Close. Brain. There's something just endlessly fascinating to me about that. The Jessica said the the one it's close and yet don't. In in terms of our understanding of it, do you. Are you also. Captivated by the fact that this very conversations happening because two brains are communicate. The I guess what I mean is the subjective nature the experience if can take a small tangent into the the mystical of it, the consciousness or or when you're saying you're captivated by the idea of the brain. Are you talking about specifically the mechanism of cognition or are you also just? Like at least for me. It it's almost like paralyzing beauty in the mystery of the fact that it creates the entirety the experience. The reasoning capability the experience well. I definitely resonate with that latter thought and. I I often find. Discussions of artificial intelligence. To be. Disappointingly narrow. Speaking of someone who? Has Always had an interest in art. Right is going to go there because it sounds like somebody who has an interest in art Yeah I mean I there there there there are many layers to. You know to full bore human experience and and. In. Some ways it's not enough to say, Oh, well, don't worry. You know we we're talking about cognition, but we'll add emotion. You know there's there's there's an incredible. SCOPE to. What humans go through in in every moment? In, yes. So it's that's part of what fascinates me is that is that our brains are producing that. But at the same time, it's so mysterious to us how. We. Literally, the our brains are literally in our heads producing sticks. And yet, there's there. It's so mysterious to us. So an in the scientific challenge of getting at the. Actual explanation for that is so overwhelming. that. Certain, people have fixations on particular questions and that's Always. been mine yet out, say the poaching that is fascinating. I'm I'm really interested in natural language as well, and when you look at artificial intelligence community, it always saddens me how much we need to create a benchmark for the community together around how much of the magic of languages lost when you create that benchmark that there's something. Would we talk about? The the music of the language, the wit, the something that makes a rich experience something that would be required to pass. The spirit of the touring. Is Lost in these benchmarks and I wonder how to get it back in because it's very difficult. The moment you tried to do like good rigorous science. You lose some of that magic when you try to study cognition in a rigorous scientific way feels like you losing some of the magic the scene cognition mechanistic way that I vote at this stage in our history. Well okay. I, I, agree with you. But at the same time one, one thing that I found. Really. Exciting about that first wave of deep learning models in cognition was. There was the the fact that the people who were building these models were focused on. The richness and complexity of human cognition. So an early debate in. Cognitive Science. which is sort of witnessed as a Grad student was about something that sounds very dry, which is the formation of past tense. But there were these two camps. One said, well, the the mind encode certain rules and it also has a list of exceptions. Of course, you know the rule is add E. B. but that's not always what you do. So you have to have a list of exceptions and And then there were the connection ests who evolved into the deep learning people who said, well, you know if you look carefully at the data, if you look at actually look at Corpora like language, Corpora It's IT turns out to be very rich because, yes, there are there are. There's you know the most verbs that you know you just tack on e. and then there are exceptions but there are also there's also their their rules that there's the the exceptions aren't just random the there are certain clues to which which which verbs should be exceptional, and then there are exceptions to the exceptions and there was a word that was. Deployed in order to capture this which was. Quasi irregular in other words, there are rules, but it's it's messy and there there's their structure even among the exceptions and it would be yeah you could try to write down we could try to write down the structure in some sort of closed form but really the right way to understand how the brain is handling all this and by the way producing all of this is to build a deep neural network and trained it on this data and see how it ends up representing all of this richness so. The way that deep learning was deployed in cognitive psychology was that was the spirit of it it was about that richness. And that's something that I always found very, very compelling still do. Is it. Is there something especially interesting profound to in terms of our current deep learning new now artificial neural network approaches and the whatever we do understand about the biological neural networks in our brain is there there's there's quite a few differences are some of them to you either interesting or perhaps profound in terms of In terms of the gap we might want to try to close in trying to create a human level intelligence. What I would say here is something that a lot of people are saying which is that. One seeming limitation of the systems that were building now is that they lacked the kind of flexibility the readiness to. Turn on a dime when the when the context calls for that is so characteristic of human behavior. So is that connected to you to the which aspect of the neural networks in our brain is that connected to is that closer to the cognitive science level of Now. Again, see like my natural inclination is to separate into three disciplines of of neuroscience cognitive science and Psychology, and you've already kind of shut that down by saying you're kind see them a separate but just to look at those. Layers I guess, where is there something about the lowest layer of the way the neural neurons interact? That is profound to you in terms of difference to the artificial neural networks or is all the the key differences at a higher level of abstraction. One thing I often think about is that You if you take an introductory computer science course and they are introducing you to the notion of turing machines who one way of. Articulating. What the significance of attorney machine is is that it's a machine emulator it can emulate any other machine and. That that to me you know that that end of that way of looking at a deterring machine. Really sticks with me I think of humans as may be. Sharing, in some of that. Character were capacity limited. We're not turing machines obviously but. We have the ability to adapt behaviors that are. Very much unlike anything we've done before, but there's some basic mechanism that is implemented in our brain that allows us to run run software but you just on that point you mentioned to him machine but nevertheless, it's fundamentally our brains are just computational devices in your view. Is that what you're getting like is I was a little. Unclear to this line drew is is, is there any magic in there or is it just basic computation? I'm happy to think of it as just basic computation, but mind you. I won't be satisfied until somebody explains to me how what the basic computations are. That are leading to the full richness of human cognition. It's not going to enough for for me to understand what the computations are that allow people to do arithmetic or play chess i. want I want the whole the whole the whole thing and a small tension because you kind of mentioned corona virus, the group behavior. Share. I is that is there something interesting to yours search of understanding the human mind? Where lar- behavior of large groups of just behavior of groups is interesting. You know seeing that as collective mind collective intelligence perhaps seeing the groups of people's a single intelligent organisms especially looking at the reinforcement learning work you've done recently well yeah I can't I can't I I have the. The the honor of working with a lot of incredibly smart people and I wouldn't WanNa take any credit for for leading the way on the multi agent work that's come out of out of my group or deep mind lately. But I do find it fascinating and I mean I. Think they are you know I think it's it. It can't be debated. You know the human behavior arises within. Communities that just seems to me self evident but to me it is self-evident. But that seems to be a profound aspects of something that created that was like if you look at like two thousand, one space Odyssey when the monkees touched the Like that's the magical moment I think Yuval Harari. Argues that the the ability of our? Large numbers of humans to hold idea to converse towards idea together like you said, shaking Anderson bumping elbows. Somehow. Converge. Like without even. Without you know without being a room altogether just kind of this distributed convergence towards an idea over a particular period of time seems to be fundamental to to just every aspect of our cognition of our intelligence because humans will talk about reward but it seems like we don't really have a clear objective function under which we operate, but we all kind of converged towards long somehow and that that to is always been a mystery that I think is somehow productive for also understanding. AI, systems, but I. I guess the next step, the first step is trying to understand the mind. Well, I I don't know I mean I think there's something to the argument that. That kind of bought up like strictly bottom up approach is. Wrong headed in other words there are there are basic phenomena the Basic aspects of human intelligence that. Are you know can be understood in the context of groups I. I'm perfectly open to that I've never been particularly. Convinced by the notion that we should be, we should consider intelligence to in here. At the level of communities I, I don't know why I just I'm sorta stuck on the notion that the basic unit that we want to understand is individual humans and if if we have to understand that in the context of other humans, fine But for me intelligence is just I'm stubbornly stubbornly define it as something that is you know. An aspect of individual human best. That's my. I'm with you with that could be reduction as dream of a scientist because he can understand a single human. It. Also is very possible that intelligence can only arise when there's multiple intelligences when there's multiple. Sort of it's a sad thing. That's true because it's very difficult to study. But if there's just one human that one human will not be Homo, sapiens would not become that intelligent as there's a possibility I. I'm with one thing I will say along these lines. Is that. I think. I think a serious effort to understand human intelligence. And maybe to build human like intelligence needs to pay just as much attention to the structure of the. Environment. As to the structure of the. You know. The cognitive system whether it's a brain or AI system That's one thing I took away from my early studies with the pioneers of Neural Network Research People like Jay mcclelland John Cohen. The the structure of. Cognition is really. It's only a only partly a function of the. The the the architecture of the brain and the learning algorithms that implements what it's really a function would what what? Really it is the interaction of those things with the structure of. The world in which things are endebted, right and especially important for the. Made, most clean reinforcement learning where are simulated environment as you can only learn as much as you can simulate, and that's what made with deep mind made very clear with the other aspect of the environment, which is the self play mechanism. Of the other agent of the competitive behavior which the other agent becomes the environment essentially. Yeah and that's one of the most exciting ideas in is the self play mechanism that's able to learn successfully. So there you go there's a, there's a thing where competition is essential for. Yeah, earning. Is, at least in that context. If we can step back into another beautiful world, which is the actual mechanics. The dirty mess of it of the human brain is there something for people who might not know? There's something you can comment on or describe the key parts of the brain that are important for talents or just in general what are the different parts of the brain you're curious about the you've studied and? They're just good to know about when you're thinking about ignition. Well. My a area of expertise if I have one is prefrontal CORTEX so. was that. Where do we? It depends on who you ask the technical definition is has had is anatomical. There are there are parts of your brain that are responsible for motor behavior in their third easy to identify and. the region of your cerebral cortex the out. Outer Crust of your brain that lies in front of those is defined as the prefrontal Cortex when we anatomical sorry to interrupt. So that's referring to sort of the geographic region as opposed to some kind of functional definition. Exactly. So that this is the coward's way out and. I'm telling you what the PREFRONTAL CORTEX is just in terms of like what part of the real estate it occupies thing in the front of the yet exactly and and in fact. The early history of you know the of Neuro Scientific? Investigation of what display front part of the brain does is sort of funny to read because you. It was really it was really World War One that started people down this road of trying to figure out what different parts of the brain the human brain do in the sense that There were a lot of people with brain damage who came back from the war with brain damage and that provided as tragic as that was, it provided an opportunity for scientists to try to identify the functions of different brain regions and it was an actually incredibly productive. But one of the frustrations that neuro-psychologist faced was the couldn't really identify exactly what the deficit was. That arose from damage to this most. Frontal parts of the brain. It was just a very difficult thing to you know to You know to pin down. There were a couple of neuro psychologists who? Identified through through a large amount of clinical experience and close observation they started to. Put their finger on a syndrome that was associated with frontal damage actually one of them was a Russian. neuropsychologist named Loria. Who? Students have cognitive psychology still read. And and what he started to. Figure out was that the frontal cortex was somehow involved in flexibility the in in in guiding behaviors that required. Someone. To override a habit. to something unusual. Or to change what they were doing inner flexible way from one moment to another. So focused on the new experiences. So So the way your brain processes and acts in new experiences. Yeah. What later helped bring this function to better focus was a distinction between controlled and automatic behavior or or two in in other literatures this is referred to as. Habitual behavior versus goal directed behavior. So it's very, very clear that. The human brain has pathways that are dedicated to habits to things that you do all the time and they need to be automated so that they don't require you to concentrate too much. So that leaves your cognitive capacity free to do other things just think about the difference between A. Driving when you're learning to drive versus driving after you're fairly expert. There are brain pathways that slowly absorbed those frequently performed behaviors so that they can be. Habits so that they can be automatic so that that's Kinda like the purest form of learning. I guess this happening there, which is why I. Mean this is kind of jumping ahead, which is why that perhaps is the most useful for us to focusing on in trying to see how artificial intelligence systems can learn. Is that it's interesting I I do think about this distinction between controlled and automatic or goal directed and habitual behavior a lot in thinking about where we are in a research But But just to finish fifth finish the dissertation here the role of the front of the prefrontal CORTEX. Is Generally, understood these days sort of in contradistinction to that habitual domain. In other words, the prefrontal Cortex is what helps you override those habits. It is what allows you to say we'll what I usually do in this situation as acts but given the context I probably should do why i. mean the elbow bump is a great example, right? If you know reaching out and shaking hands is Probably a habitual behavior and it's the prefrontal CORTEX that allows us to bear in mind that there's something unusual going on right now, and in this situation I need to not do the usual thing The kind of behaviors that luria reported and he built tests for detecting these kinds of things we're exactly like this. So in other words when stuck out my hand. I want you instead to present your elbow. A patient with frontal damage would have a great deal of trouble with that. You know somebody proffering their hand would elicit. A handshake the prefrontal CORTEX is what allows us to say Oh, no hold on. That's the usual thing but I'm I have the ability to bear in mind even very unusual contexts and to reason about what behavior is appropriate there it just to get a sense is our US humans special in the presence of the pre frontal CORTEX. I do myself a prefrontal cortex do other mammals that we can study? If no, the the how do they integrate new experiences? Yeah. That's a that's a really tricky question and a very timely question. Because we have. revolutionary. New Technologies for monitoring measuring and also causally influencing neural behavior in. Mice and. flies. And these techniques are not. full available even for studying brain function in monkeys let alone humans and so it's it's a very. Sort of for me at least a very urgent question whether. The kinds of things that we want to understand about human intelligence can be. Pursued in these other organisms and You know to put it briefly there's disagreement the. People who study fruit flies will often tell you hey, fruit flies are smarter than you think and they'll point to experiments where fruit flies were able to learn. New Behaviors were able to generalize from one stimulus to another in a way that suggests that they have abstractions that guide their generalization I. I've had many conversations in which. I will start by observing you know recounting some. Some observation about mouse behavior where it seemed like mice, we're taking an awfully long time to learn a task that a human would be. Profoundly. Trivial and. I will conclude from that that mice really don't have the cognitive flexibility that we want to explain and mouse researcher will say to me well, you know hold on. That experiment may not have worked because you asked a mouse to deal with stimuli and behaviors that were very unnatural for the mouse. If instead you kept the logic of the experiment, the same but put. Put it in a you know presented the information in a way that aligns with what mice are used to dealing with in their natural habitats. You might find that a mouse actually has more intelligence than you think. And then they'll go on to show you videos of mice doing things in their natural habitat which seem strikingly intelligent dealing with physical problems. You know I have to drag this piece of food back to my. Back to my lair, but there's something in my way and how do I get rid of that? So I think I think these are open questions to put it to sum that up and then taken a small step back related to that? Is you kind of mentioned would take little shortcut by saying it's a geographic geographic part of the. The prefrontal CORTEX is a region of the brain. But if we what's your sense in a bigger philosophical view, prefrontal cortex in the brain in general Davis sense that it's a set of substance in the way we've kind of implied that are they're pretty distinct or toward degrees at that or to a degree. Is it a giant interconnected mess where everything Kinda does everything in? It's impossible to disentangle them. I think there's overwhelming evidence that there's functional differentiation that it's clearly not the case that part of the brain are doing the same thing. This follows immediately from the kinds of. Studies of brain damage that we were chatting about before. It. It's obvious from what you see if you stick an electrode in the brain and measure what's going on at the level of. Neural activity. Having said that. there are two other things to add which kind of. I don't know maybe tug in the other direction one is that. It's when you look carefully at functional differentiation in the brain what you usually end up concluding. At least this is my observation of the literature is that the the differences between regions are graded rather than being discreet So it doesn't seem like it's easy to divide the brain up into True modules. where you know that are are you know that have clear boundaries and that have Bam like? Like chant clear channels of communication between. Instead lies to the prefrontal CORTEX. Yeah, oh. Yeah. Yeah. The prefrontal CORTEX made up of a bunch of different subregions The you know the the functions of which are not clearly defined and which in the borders of which seemed to be quite vague And then then there's another thing that's popping up in very recent research which which. Involves application of these new techniques Their number of studies that suggest that. Parts of the brain that we would have previously thought were quite. Focused in their. Function are actually carrying signals that we would have thought would be there. For example, looking in the primary visual cortex is classically thought of as. Basically the first quarter way station for processing visual information. Basically, what it should care about is aware are the edges in this scene that I'm viewing. It turns out that if you have enough data, you can recover information from primary visual Cortex, all sorts of things like you know what what behavior the animal is engaged in right now and what what how much reward is on offer in the in the task that it's pursuing. So it's clear that even. Even, regions whose function is pretty well defined at a course. Sprain are nonetheless carrying some information about information from very different domains. So you know the history of neuroscience sort of this oscillation between the two of us you articulated. Modular view and then the big mush view and. I. I, guess. WE'RE GONNA end up somewhere in the middle, which is, which is unfortunate for our understanding because the module there's something about our. Conceptual system that finds it's easy to think about a modular system and easy to think about a completely undifferentiated system but something that kind of lies in between is confusing. But we're going to have to get used to it. I. Think Unless we can understand deeply the lower level mechanism neuronal communicate. Yeah. So yeah on that on that topic, you mentioned information just to get a sense I imagine something that they're still mystery and disagreement on his how does the brain carry information and signal like woody? Your sense is the basic. Mechanism of communication in the brain. Well I. Guess I'm old fashioned in that I consider the networks that we use in deep learning research to be a reasonable approximation to you know the the mechanisms that carry information in the brain. So the the the usual way of articulating that is to say what really matters is a rate code. What matters is how how how quickly is an individual neurons spiking how what's the frequency at which it spiking the timing of the spike? Yeah. Is it is it firing fast or slow? Let's let's put a number on that, and that number is enough to capture what what neurons are doing. There's. There's. Still uncertainty about whether that's an an adequate description of how information is. is transmitted within the brain there. You know there, there are studies that suggest that the precise timing of spikes matters there are. Studies that suggest that there are computations that go on within the dendritic tree within an Iran that are quite rich and structured, and that really don't equate to anything that we're doing artificial neural networks. Having said that I feel like we can get I feel like. I feel like we're getting somewhere by sticking to this high level of abstraction, just the rate. But what we're talking about the electrical signal that I remember reading some vague paper somewhere recently where the mechanical signal like the vibrations or something of the of the neurons also communication. I haven't seen that, but there's there's somebody was arguing that the the electrical signal is in nature paper something like that where the electrical signal is actually a side effect of the mechanical signal but I don't think they the story. But it's almost a interesting. Idea that there could be deeper it's it's always like in physics with quantum mechanics, there's always deeper story that could be underlying the whole thing, but you think is basically the rate of spiking against us. That's like the lowest hanging fruit taken. Get US really far. This is a this is a classical view I mean this is this is this is not the only way in which this stance would be controversial is in you know in the sense that there are there are members of the neuroscience community who are interested in alternatives but this is really a very mainstream view. The way that neurons communicate is that neurotransmitters arrive. You know at at a at they wash up on your on. The Neuron has receptors for those transmitters that the the the the meeting of the transmitter with these receptors changes the voltage of the neurons and if enough voltage change occurs then spike occurs right one of these discrete events and it's that spike that is conducted down the Exxon and leads to neuro transmitter released this this just like neuroscience one. Oh one this is like the way the brain is supposed to work now. What we do when we build artificial neural networks of the kind that are now popular in the community is that we? Don't worry about those individual spikes. We just worry about the frequency at which those spikes are being generated, and the we consider the people talk about that as the activity of neuron and you know so the the activity of units in deep learning system is. Broadly analogous to the spike rate of neurons there. There are people who who believe that. There are other forms of communication in the brain. In fact, I've been involved in research recently, that suggests that the the voltage. The voltage fluctuations that occur in populations of neurons that aren't You know that are sort of below the level of of spy production may be important for for communication but. I'm still pretty old school in the sense that I think that the the things that were building in a research constitute reasonable. Models of. How brain woodwork. Let me ask just for fun a crazy question because I can. Do you think it's possible were completely wrong about the way this basic mechanism of near neuronal communication that the information is at some very different kind of way in the brain oh. Heck. Yes. I look I wouldn't be a scientist. If I didn't think there was any chance we were wrong but but I mean. If you look, if you look at the history of deep learning research has been applied to neuroscience of course, the vast majority of deep learning research these days isn't about neuroscience but. you know if you go back to the nineteen eighty S, there's you know sort of an unbroken chain of of research in in which a particular strategy is taken, which is, Hey, let's train a deep a deep learning system. Let's train a multilayer neural network. On this task that we trained, are you know Matt on our monkey on or this human being on, and then let's look at what the units deep in the system are doing. And let's ask whether what they're doing resembles what we know about what neurons deepened the brain are doing and over and over and over and over. That strategy works in the sense that. The learning algorithms that we have access to which. Typically Center on back propagation. They give rise to. The patterns of activity patterns of response, of neuronal behavior in these in these artificial models that look hauntingly hauntingly similar to what you see in the brain and. Is that a immune. Incidence at a certain point starts looking such coincidences unlikely to not be deeply meaningful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. But it could. We always open to total flipping cable? Yeah. Of course. So you you have co-authored several recent papers that said we've beautifully between the world of neuroscience and artificial intelligence and. This if we could just try to dance around and talk about some of them may be tried to pick out interesting ideas to jump to your mind from memory. So may be looking at we're talking about the prefrontal CORTEX, the two, thousand, eighteen, I, believe paper called the prefrontal cortex matter reinforcement learning system but is there a key idea that you can speak to from that paper? Yeah the I mean the key idea is about nedal learning. So what is learning Meta learning is? By definition. A situation in which. You have a learning algorithm. And the learning algorithm operates in such a way that it gives rise to another learning our them. In the in the earliest applications with this idea, you had one learning algorithms adjusting the parameters on another learning algorithm but the case that we're interested in this paper is one where you start with just one learning algorithm and then another learning algorithm kind of. Emerges out of out of thin air I can say more about what I mean by that. I don't mean to be you know guarantees yet but. that's the idea of Meta learning you it relates to the old psychology of learning to learn. situations where you you, you have experiences that make you better at learning something new like a familiar example would be learning a foreign language. The first time you learn a foreign language, it may be quite laborious and disorienting and a novel. But if let's say you've learned to to foreign languages, the third foreign language obviously is going to be much easier to pick up and why because you've learned how to learn you know how this goes you know, okay I'm going to have to learn how to conjugate I'm GonNa. That's a that's a simple form of medal earning right in the sense that there some slow learning mechanism that's giving the helping you kind of update your learning mechanism that debt makes. Him. So how from from our understand from the psychology world from endure science under our understanding home meadow learning works? Might work in the human brain. What what lessons can we draw from that that we can bring into the artificial intelligence world? Well Yeah. So we the origin of that paper was in. Work that that we were doing in my group we were. We were looking at what happens when you train a recurrent network using standard reinforcement learning algorithms. But but you train that network not just in one task but you trained in a bunch of interrelated tasks and then you ask what happens when you give it yet another task in that sort of line of of interrelated tasks in in what we started to realize is that. a form of Meta learning spontaneously happens in in recurrent neural networks and and. Simplest way to explain it as to say. A recurrent, a recurrent neural network has kind of memory in its. Patterns. It's recurrent by definition in the sense that you have units that connect to other units that connect to other units. So you have sort of loops of connectivity which allows activity to stick around and be updated over time in psychology we call in neuro science we call this working memory. It's like actively holding something in mind. And In in so that memory gives the colonel network, a dynamics, right the way that the activity pattern. Evolves over time is inherent to the connectivity of recurrent neural network. Okay. So that's that's idea number one. Now, the dynamics of that network are shaped by the connectivity by the synoptic weights. In those synoptic weights are being shaped by this reinforcement learning algorithm that you're training the network with. So the punchline is if you train colonel network with a reinforcement learning algorithm that's adjusting its weights and you do that for long enough. The activation dynamics will become very interesting. Right so imagine imagine I give you a task where you have to press one button or another left button right button and Sometime in in there's some probability that I'm going to give you an Eminem if you press the left button and there's some probability. If you press the button and you have to figure out what this probabilities are just by trying things out. But as I said, before, instead of just giving you one of these tasks, I give you a whole sequence. I give you two buttons and you figure out which ones and I go good job. Here's here's a new box to new buttons. You have to figure out which ones best good job. Here's a new box and every box has its own probabilities and you have to. So. If you train a neural recur network on that kind of sequence of tasks. The what. What happens it seemed almost magical to to us when we first started kind of. Realizing what was going on? The slow learning algorithm justifying the the snap weights. Though those slow synoptic changes, give rise to a network AMEX. That themsel- that you know the dynamics themselves turn into a learning algorithm. So in other words you can, you can tell this is happening by just freezing snapped equates saying, okay no more learning you're done. Here's a new box. Figure out which buttons best and there were Colonel Network will do this just fine. There's no it figures out which which button is best it trained it kind of. Transitions from exploring the two buttons to just pressing the one that it likes best in a very rational way. How is that happening? It's happening because the activity of the the dynamics of the network have been shaped by the slow learning process that's occurred over many many boxes and so. What's happened is that this slow learning algorithm that? Slowly. Adjusting the weights is changing the dynamics of the network, the activity innomax into its own learning algorithm. And as we were as we were kind of realizing that this. Is the thing. It just. So happened that the group that was working on this included a bunch of scientists and it started kind of ringing a bell for us which is to say that we thought this sounds a lot like the distinction between synoptic. And activity synoptic memory and activity based memory in the brain. And it also reminded us of recurrent connectivity that's very characteristic of prefrontal function So this this is kind of why it's good to have people working on a I. Know a little bit about neuroscience and vice versa. Because we started thinking about whether we could apply this principle to to neuroscience, and that's where the paper came from. So the the kind of principle of the cards they can seeing the prefrontal cortex then you start to realize. that. It's possible to for something like an idea of learning to learn. A emerging from this learning process as long as you keep. Varying the environment sufficient. Exactly. So so the the key, the kind of metaphorical transition we made neuro science was to think okay. Well, we know that the prefrontal CORTEX is highly recurrent. We know that it's an important locus for working memory for active. Based memory. So maybe the prefrontal cortex supports reinforcement learning in other words. You what is reinforcement learning? You take an action you see how much reward you got you update your policy of behavior. Maybe, the prefrontal cortex is doing that sort of thing strictly in its activation patterns, it's keeping around a memory in its activity patterns of what you did, how much reward you got. And it's using that that activity based. Memory as a basis for updating behavior but then the question is, well, how did the prefrontal CORTEX get get so smart in other words? How did it? Where did these activity dynamics come from? How did that program that's implemented in the recurrent dynamics of the prefrontal cortex arise and one answer that became evident in this work was will maybe maybe the mechanisms that operate on the synoptic level which we believe are mediated by dopamine are responsible for shaping those dynamics. So This may be a silly question, but because this kind of. Several. Temp temporal of classes of learning, happening, and the learning to learn. Emerges can just q you keep. Building stacks of learning to learn to learn learning to learn to learn to learn to learn because it keeps I mean basically abstractions of more powerful abilities to generalize. Learning Complex rules yeah. Was As overstretching the This kind of mechanism. Well, one one of the one of the people. Who? Started thinking about Meta, learning from very early on your Schmidhuber sort of cheekily suggested I think is it may have been in his his PhD thesis that We should think about Meta Meta? Meta Meta Meta learning. That's really that's really what's going to get us to true intelligence. Certainly, there's a poetic aspect to and it seems. Interesting and correct the that that kind of levels obstruction will be powerful. But is that something you see in the brain this kind of Is it useful to think of learning in these Madam at? Or is it just Meta learning? Well. One thing that really fascinated me about this. Mechanism that we were starting to look at and. Other groups started talking about very similar things. At the same time and then kind of explosion of interest in medal learning happened in the community shortly after that. I don't know if we had anything to do with that. But but I was gratified to see that a lot of people started talking about medal learning One of the things that I like about the kind of flavor of Meta learning that we were studying was that it didn't require anything special. It was just if you took a system that had some form of memory. That the function of which could be shaped by. Pick your are L. Algorithm. Then this would happen yes. Right I mean there there are a lot of forms of there are a lot of Meta learning algorithms that have been proposed since then that are fascinating and effective in in their in their domains of application but they're they're engineer. There are things that we had to say, well, Gee, if we wanted metal learning to happen, how would we do that? Here's an algorithm that would but there's something about the kind of metal learning that we were studying that seemed to me special in the sense that it wasn't an algorithm. It was just something that automatically happened if you had a system that had memory and it was trained with reinforcement learning algorithm and. In that sense. It can be, as Meta that wants to be right. There's no limit on how Abstract the metal learning can get because it's not reliant on the human engineering, a particular medal learning algorithm to get there. And that's I I also. I don't know I guess I hope that that's relevant in the brain. I think there's a kind of in in the ability of this emergent, the emergent aspect of it it's something. Exactly something that just it just happens in in in a sense. In a sense, you can't avoid this happening if you have a system that has memory and the function of that memory is shaped by reinforcement learning and this system is trained in a series of interrelated tasks. This is going to happen. You can't stop it. You know as long as you have certain properties, maybe like a recurrent structure to you have to have member, it actually doesn't have to be a recurring that we're one of paper that I was honored to be involved with even earlier used kind of slot based memory You remember the title just. Organized, it was memory augmented neural networks. I think I think the title was Meta learning in memory augmented neural networks In and you know it was the same exact story you have a system with. Memory here it was a different kind of memory, but the function of that memory is. Shaped by reinforcement learning. Here, it was the re the you know the reads and writes that occurred on this lot base memory This this'll just happened. And and and so this this brings us back to something I was saying earlier about the importance of the the environment this. This will happen if the system is being trained in setting where there's like a sequence of tasks that all share some abstract structure sometimes talk about task distributions and that's something that's Very, obviously true of the world that humans and habit we're. We're constantly like just think about what you do every day. You never. You never do exactly the same thing that you did the day before but everything you do is sort of has a family resemblance. It shares structure with something that you did before and so you know the the real world is sort of. Saturated with this kind of this property, it's an endless variety with endless redundancy and that's the setting in which this kind of Meta learning happens and it does seem like we're just so good at finding just like in this emergent phenomena, you describe were really good at finding that redundancy finding similarities, the the family resemblance, some people call it sort of What is it me Mitchell talking about analogies. So we're able to connect concepts together in this kind away in in this same kind of automated emergent way which it there's so many echoes here of psychology neuroscience and obviously now with. Reinforcement learning with recurrent y'all now works at the core. If we could talk a little bit about dopamine. You have really you're part of Co authoring really exciting recent paper very recent. In terms of release on dopamine and temporal difference learning. Can you describe the key ideas of that paper? Sure. Yeah. I mean one thing I wanted pause to do is acknowledged my co-authors on actually both of the papers we're talking about. So this doping adjust to I'll I'll certainly post all their okay. Wonderful because I you know I. I'm I'm sort of abashed to be the spokesperson for these papers when the had such amazing collaborators on both So it's a, it's a comfort to me to know that y'all y'all acknowledged the yeah. Doesn't an incredible team will? Yes. It's such a it's so much fun and and in the case of the dopamine paper we also collaborated with now cheat at Harvard who. Obviously. Paper simply wouldn't have happened without him but So so you were asking for like a thumbnail sketch of thumbnail sketch. Ideas or you know things that the insights that no containing on our kind of discussion here between neuroscience and yeah I mean this was another a the work that we've done so far as Taking ideas that have bubbled up in a I and. You know asking the question of whether the brain might be doing something related which. I think on the surface sounds like something that's really mainly of used to neuroscience. We see it also as a way of validating what we're doing on the side if we can gain some evidence that the brain is using some technique that we've been trying out in our ai work. That gives us confidence that you know. It may be a good idea that it'll meteo scale to rich complex tasks that it'll. Interface. Well with other mechanisms. So you see is a two way road. Yeah. For just because a particular paper is a little bit focused on from one to the from a from, you'll networks to new science ultimately the discussion the thinking. The productive long-term aspect of it is the two way road nature of the Holland Yeah I mean we we've talked about the notion of a virtuous circle between a and neuroscience and. You know the way I, see it. That's always been there since the two fields. Jointly existed. There have been some phases in that history when I was sort of head, there are some phases when neuroscience was sort of a head I feel like given the burst of. Innovation that's happened recently on the AI side. Is kind of ahead in the sense that they're all of these ideas that we you know we. for which it's exciting to consider that there might be analogs and neuroscience You know in a sense has been focusing on approaches to studying behavior that come from. Are. Derived from this earlier era of cognitive psychology. And so in some ways fail to connect with some of the issues that we're grappling with in a I like how do we deal with large complex environments? But I think it's inevitable that this circle will keep turning and there will be a moment in the not too different distant future when neurosciences pelting AI researchers with insights that may change the direction of our work. Just a quick human question is it you have a? Parts of your, brain. Matter, but they're able to both think about neuroscience. Don't often meet people like that Do you think? He ask a Meta plasticity question. Do, you think a human being can be both good at the I am neurosciences like what the team, a deep mind what kind of human can occupy these two realms and is that something you see everybody should be doing can be doing or is it very special? Few? Can Kinda jump just talk art history I would think it's special person that can. Major in history and also consider being a surgeon. Otherwise known as a dilettante. DILATOT. Easily distracted. No I, I? I think it does take special kind of person to be. Truly world-class, at both Ai, and neuroscience and I am not on that list I happen to be someone who who's interested in neuro science and psychology. Involved using the kinds of modeling techniques that are now. Very Central. Ai and that sort of I guess bought me a ticket to be involved in all of the amazing things that are going on in I research right now I do know a few people who I would consider pretty expert on both fronts. And I won't embarrass them by naming them but there are there are like exceptional people out there who are like this the the one the one thing that I find. Is A is a barrier to being truly world-class on both fronts is is. The, just the the complexity of the technology that's involved in both disciplines now. the the engineering expertise that it takes to to do truly frontline hands on AI research is really really considerable. The learning curve of the tools just the specifics of just whether it's programming the kind of tools necessary to collect the data managed data to distributed, compute all that kind of stuff. Yeah and on the neuroscience I guess I'd there'd be all different sets of tools exactly especially with the recent explosion in you know in neuroscience methods. So but you know so having said all that I I think. I think the I think the best scenario. For both neuroscience and AI is to have people who interacting who live at every point on the spectrum from. Exclusively focused on neuroscience to explore exclusively focused on the engineering side of ai but but to have those people. Inhabiting a community where they're talking to people who live elsewhere on the on the spectrum and I be I may be someone who's very close to the center in the sense that I have one foot in the neuroscience world and one foot in the world, and that central position I will admit prevents me at least someone with my limited cognitive capacity from from being a truly true having true technical expertise in any domain but at the same time. I at least hope that it's worthwhile having people around who can kind of. See the connections between unity the Yeah. The the merger intelligence of the community I guess nicely distributed. Is Useful. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. So hopefully that I mean I've seen that work I've seen that workout well at mind there are there are people who I mean even if you just focus on the I work that happens at deep mind it's been a good thing to have some people around doing that kind of work. WHO's PhD's are in neuroscience psychology every every academic discipline has it's Kind of. Blind spots and kind of unfortunate obsessions and it's metaphors and its reference points and having some intellectual diversity. Is is really healthy. People get each other unstuck I think I see it all the time at D. Mind and you know I. I like to think that the people who brings some neuroscience background to the table or are helping with that. So one of the one of my like probably deep passion for me what I would say maybe kind of spoke off my body but The that I think is a blind spot for at least robotics I folks is human robot interaction. Human Agent Interaction Maybe Give thoughts about how we reduce the size of that blindspot. Do also share the feeling that not enough folks are studying this aspect of interaction. Well I I'm I'm actually. Pretty intensively interested in this issue now, and there are people in my group who've actually pivoted pretty hard over the last few years from doing more traditional cognitive psychology and cognitive neuroscience to doing experimental work on human agent interaction and. Their couple reasons that I'm. Pretty passionately interested in this one is. It's kind of the outcome of having thought. For a few years now. What we're up to like, what were you think? What are we doing like? What is this? What is this aid AI research four? So what does it mean to make the world? A Better place I? Think I'm pretty sure that means making life better for humans. Yeah and. So how do you make life better for humans? That's That's a proposition that when you look at it carefully and honestly is. Rather. horrendously complicated especially when. The AI systems that you're? That you're building are learning systems they're not you're not. You know programming something that you then introduced to the to the world and it just works as programmed like Google maps or something We're? Building. Systems. That learn from experience so. That that typically leads to safety questions, how do we keep these things from getting out of control? How do we keep them from doing things that harm humans and I? I mean, I, hasten to say. I consider those hugely important issues and there are large sectors of the research community, a deep mind, and of course, elsewhere who are dedicated to thinking hard all day every day about that. But there's a there's I guess I. Guess I would say a positive side to this too which is to say well. What would it mean to make human life better? And how how can we imagine learning systems doing that? And in talking to my colleagues about that, we reached the initial conclusion that. It's not sufficient to philosophize out that you actually have to take into account how humans actually work. And what humans want and the difficulties of knowing what humans want. And the difficulties that arise when humans want different things. And so human agent interaction has become know quite a quite intensive focus of my group lately. If, for no other reason that. In, order to really address that. That issue in an adequate way you have to I mean psychology becomes part of the picture, and so there's a there's a few moments. There's if you focus on solving into like the if you focus on the robotics problem, say Agi without humans in the picture is a you're missing fundamentally the the final step when you do want to help human civilization, you eventually have to interact with humans. and. When you create a learning system just as he said. That will eventually have to interact with humans. The interaction itself has to be become has to become part of the learning process. So you can't just watch while my senses. It sounds like your senses you can't just watch humans to learn about humans. Yeah. You have to also be part of the human world yet. They interact with humans. Yeah. Exactly and I mean then questions arise that start imperceptibly but inevitably to slip beyond the realm of engineering. So questions like. If you have an agent that can do something that you can't do. Under what conditions do you want that agent to do it? So. If you know if I, if I have a if I have a robot that can play. Beethoven Sonatas. Better than any human in the sense that. The you know the the sensitivity, the express the expression is just beyond any human. Do I do I want to listen to that? Do I want to go to a concert in here a robot play? These are these are these are engineering questions these are. Questions about human preference in human. Culture. Psychology, bordering on philosophy yeah. And then, and then you start asking well. We'll even if we knew the answer to that. Is it our place as a engineer to build that into these agents probably, the agents should interact with humans. Beyond the population of Ai Engineers and figure out what those humans want I'm, and then you know when you start I referred this the moment ago but. Even that becomes complicated. Be Quote. What if what if two eight? What if to humans want different things? And you have only one agent that's able to interact with them and try to satisfy their preferences. Then you're into the realm of of of. Economics and social choice theory and and even politics. So there's a sense in which if you if you kind of follow what we're doing to its logical conclusion, then it goes beyond questions of engineering and technology and. Starts to shade imperceptibly into questions about. What kind of society do you want at actually that? Once, once that dawned on me, I actually felt. I. Don't know what the right word is quite refreshed in my in my involvement in AI research almost like. This building. This kind of stuff is going to lead us back to asking really fundamental questions about what's what is this like what? What's the good life and who gets to decide and and you know bringing in viewpoints from multiple sub communities to help us shape the way that we live this it's it's there's something it. It started making me feel like doing a research in in a fully responsible way. Would you know could potentially lead to a kind of? Like Cultural Renewal. Yeah. It's it's the way on is the the way to understand human beings at the individual the societal level may become a way to answer all the so human questions of the meaning of life and all the all those kinds of things even if it doesn't even if it doesn't give us a way of answering those questions, it may. Force us back to thinking about thinking about you know and it might. It might bring. It might restore a certain I don't know a certain depth to. or even dare is as spirituality to the way that you know to the world I don't maybe that'll grandiose but I don't i. I'm with you. I think it's a it's a it will be the philosophy of the twenty first century, the the way the which will open the door I think a lot of researchers are afraid to open that door of exploring the. Beautiful. Richness. Of the human. Agent Interaction Human Interaction I'm really happy that somebody like you have open death adore and. One thing I often think about is. The the usual, the usual Schema for thinking about Human. Human Interaction is kind of dystopia in Oh were our robot overlords and. And again, I hasten to say safety is usually very going. Then I you know I'm not saying we shouldn't be thinking about those risks. Totally, on board for that but. Having said that there's A. There's a I. Would often follows for me is the thought that. There's another there's another kind of narrative that might be relevant, which is when we think of when we think of humans gaining more and more information about you know like human life. The, narrative there is usually that they've gained more and more wisdom and more they get closer to enlightenment and. And they become more benevolent in the Buddha's like the that's the that's a totally different narrative. The wire isn't it the case that we imagine that the systems that were creating under GonNa like they're going to figure out more and more about the way the world works and the way that humans interact and they'll they'll become beneficent. I'm not saying that will happen I'm not. I don't honestly expect that to happen without some careful setting things up very carefully but it's another way things go right and yeah and I would even push back than that. I I. Personally. Believe that the the most trajectories natural human trajectories elitist towards progress. So for me there is a kind a sense that most trajectories in development will lead us into trouble mean And we over focus on the worst case is like in computer science theoretical computer science has been this focused on worst case analysis. There's something appealing to our human mind. At some lowest level to be me, we don't want to be eaten by the Tiger I? Guess. So we want to do the worst case analysis, but the reality is. That shouldn't stop us from actually building out all the other trajectories which are potentially leading to all the positive world's all the. All the enlightenment this book in now with Steven Pinker and so on. This is looking generally at human progress and there's so many ways that human progress can happen would they is You have to do that research. You have to do that work. You have to do the not just the is safety work of the one worst case analysis. How do we prevent that but the the actual tools and the glue and the mechanisms of human. Interaction that would lead to all the positive. Yeah. Yeah, it's Super Exciting area. You know we should be spending. We should be spending a lot of time saying what can go wrong I think. It's harder to see that there's work to be done. To bring into focus the question of what what it would look like for things to go, right? Yeah. It's you know that's not obvious. There and we wouldn't be doing this if we didn't have the sense was huge potential, right? We're not doing this. You know for no reason we we have a sense that agi would be a major boom to humanity but I, think I think it's worth. Starting, now our technology is quite primitive asking well, exactly what would that mean we can start now with applications that are already gonNA, make the world a better place like. Solving protein folding you know I think this decline has gotten heavy into science applications lately, which I think is you know. A wonderful wonderful move to to be making. But when we think about Agi when we think about building fully intelligent agents that are going to be able to in a sense do whatever they want. You know we should start thinking about what do we want them to want What what? What kind of world do we WANNA live in? That's not an easy question. And we just need to start working on it and even on the past to age, it doesn't have to be g I just intelligent agents that interact with us and help us enrich our own. Existence on social networks, for example, on recommended systems in various intelligent, there's so much interesting to as yet to be understood and studied in. You know how how do you create a I? Mean twitter is is a struggling with this very idea how do you create systems that increase the quality and the health of a conversation for sure beautiful beautiful human psychology question and how do you do that without? without. Deception being involved without manipulation being involved Maximizing human autonomy and how do you? How do you make these choices in a democratic way? How do you? How do we? How do we face the? How do we? Again I am speaking for myself here how do we face the fact that? It's a small group of people who have the skill set to build these kinds of systems. but the you know what it means to make the world. A better place is something that we all have to be talking about. Yeah the the. The world, the that we're trying to make a better place includes. A huge variety of different kinds of people. How do we cope with that? This is this is a problem that has been discussed. You know in in gory extensive detail in. Troy steer. One thing I'm really enjoying. About the recent direction, work has taken parts of my team is that. We're reading the eyelid archer. We're reading the neuroscience later also started reading like economics and as I mentioned social choice theory even political because it turns out that. It. It all becomes relevant it all becomes relevant and But at the same time we've been trying not to write. Philosophy papers we've been trying not to write position papers. We're trying to figure out ways of doing actual empirical research that kind of take the first small steps to thinking about what it really means for humans with all of their complexity and contradiction and. Paradox. In you know to be bought to be brought into contact with these. Systems in a way that. That really makes. As often reinforcement learning framework sexy kind of allow you to do that machine learning in that. That's the exciting body is allows you to reduce the unsolvable problem philosophical problem to something more. Concrete you can get a hold of yeah and it allows you to kind of define the problem in some way that. Allows for. Growth, in the system, that's sort of you know you're not responsible for the details, right? You say this is generally what I want you to do, and then learning takes care of the rest Of course, the safety issues are arise in that context but I think also some of these positive issues arise in that context what would it mean for a system to really come to understand what humans want? And in in in in with all of the subtleties of that, right, you know. Humans. Humans want help with certain things but they don't want everything done for them. Right you part of part of the satisfaction that humans get from life is in accomplishing things. So if there were devices around the did everything for I often think of the movie wally. That's like dystopia in in a totally different way as the machines are doing everything for us. That's that's not what we want it. Anyway. I. I, find this. You know this this opens up whole landscape of of research that feels affirmative. Yeah. To me is one of the most exciting in its wide open. Yeah. We have to 'cause it's a cool paper talk about dopamine. Okay. Let's we're GONNA we're. GonNa. I was GonNa give you a quick summary is a quick summary of What's the title of the paper? I think we called it a distributional. distributional coach value in dopamine based reinforcement learning. Yes. So that's another project that grew out of. Pure Ai Research a number of people that deep mind and a few other places had started working. On a new version of reinforcement learning it. The. which was defined by taking something in traditional reinforcement learning and just tweaking it. So the thing that they took from traditional reinforcement learning was AH value signal. So the at the at the center of reinforcement learning at least most algorithms is some representation of how well things are going your expected cumulative future reward and. That's usually represented as a single number. So if you imagine a Gambler and a casino and The gamblers thinking? Well, I have this probability of winning such and such amount of money and I have this probability of losing such and such an amount of money. The that situation would be represented as a single number, which is like the expected beat the weighted average of all those outcomes. And this new form of reinforcement learning said, well, what if we what if we generalize that to distributional representations and now we think of the gamblers literally thinking? Well, there's this probability that all win this amount of money and there's this probability that lose that amount of money and we don't reduce that to a single number. And it had been observed through experiments through. You know just trying this out that that rep that kind of distributional representation. Really. Accelerated reinforcement learning and lead to better. Policies what's your intuition about? So we're talking about rewards. So which tuition why that is why? What is it? It's kind of a surprising historical note prize me when I learned it that. This had been tried out in a kind of heuristic way people thought well, Gee, what would happen if we tried and then it had this empirically it had this striking effect and it was only then people started. Gee. Why why? Why, why is this working and that's led to a series of studies just trying to figure out why it works it. which is ongoing but one thing that's already clear from that research is that one reason that it helps is that it drives. Richer representations learning. So if you imagine. Imagine two situations have the same expected value same kind of weighted average value. But Standard deep reinforcement learning algorithms are going to take those two situations and kind of in terms of the way the represented internally in the next squeeze them together because the the thing that you're trying to. Represent which is are expected. Value is the same. So all the way through the system things are going to be mushed together. But what if what if what if those two situations actually have different value distributions they have the same average? Value, but they have different distributions of. Value. In that situation distributional learning will will maintain the distinction between these two things. So to make a long story, short distributional learning can keep things separate. In the internal representation that might otherwise be conflated or squished together and maintaining this distinctions can be useful in in when the system is now faced with some other task for the distinction is important. If. We look at optimistic and pessimistic dopamine neurons. So first of all. WHAT IS DOPAMINE Is this. Why is it all useful to to? To to think about. Intelligence Sense. But what do we know about dopamine in human brain? What is what is it? Why is it useful? Wise interesting. What does have to do with the prefrontal CORTEX and learning in general? Yeah. So Well this. This is also a case where there's a huge amount of detail and debate but one. One one currently prevailing idea is that. The function of this neurotransmitter dopamine resembles a particular. Component of. Standard reinforcement learning algorithms, which is called the reward prediction error. So I was talking a moment ago about these value representations, how do you learn them? How do you update them based on experience? Well, if you if you made prediction about future reward and then you get more reward than you were expecting then probably retrospectively, you want to go back and increase the the the. Value Representation that you attached to the that earlier situation. If you got less roar than you expecting, you should probably detriment that estimate and that's the process of temporal difference. Exactly. This is the central mechanism of temporal difference learning, which is one of several kind of kind of back the sort of the backbone of our our momentum in in our and it was this connection between. Reward prediction error dopamine was was made You know in the in the nineteen ninety s and there's been a huge amount of research that. Seems to back it up dopamine made to be doing other things but this is clearly At. least roughly one of the things that it's doing. But. The usual idea was that dopamine was representing these reward prediction errors again in this kind of single number way that representing your surprise with number in distributional reinforcement learning this this kind of new elaboration of the standard approach. It's not only the value the value function that's represented as a single number. It's also the ruler prediction. and. So What happened was that will dabney one of my collaborators who was one of the first people to work on distributional temporal difference learning. Talked to a guy in my group will cry, Zab Nelson who's computational neuroscientist and said Gee you know is it possible that dopamine might be doing something like this distribution accounting and they started looking at what was in literature and then they brought me in we started talking now a Cheetah and we came up with some specific predictions about. If the brain is using this kind of distributional coding. Then in the tasks that now has studied, you should see this this this and this and that's where the paper came from. We have enumerated a set of predictions. All of which ended up being fairly clearly confirmed in all of which leads to at least some initial indication that the brain might be doing something like this distribution cutting that dopamine might be. Representing surprise signals in a way that. Is Not, just collapsing everything to single number but instead is kind of respecting the the variety of future outcomes if that makes sense. So yes, that's showing suggesting possibly the dopamine has a really interesting representations scheme yet for for in human brain for its rewards signal exactly as fascinating as that's another beautiful example of AI revealing something new about your science potentially suggesting possibilities you never know so. The minute you published paper like that the next thing is. I hope that replicates. Like I hope. I. Hope we see that same thing in other data. That's but of course. Several labs. Now, our are doing the follow up experiments so we'll know soon, but it has been it has been a lot of fun for us to. Take these ideas for May I and kind of bring them into neuroscience and and you know see how far we can get. So we kind of talked about it a little bit. But what do you see the fields of neuroscience and artificial intelligence heading? broadly. Like what are the possible exciting areas that you can see through in the next us get crazy not just three or five years but next ten, twenty, thirty years. That would make you. Excited and perhaps you'll be part of. On the neuro science side. There's a great deal of interest now in what's going on in AI. And And at the same time. I feel like. So. especially. The part of neuroscience that's focused on circuits and Systems of kind of really mechanism focused. there's been this explosion in new technology. and. Up until recently, the the experiments that have exploited this technology have. Have not involved a lot of interesting behavior. And this is for a variety of reasons. One of which is in order do employ some of these technologies you actually have to. If you're if you're studying a mouse, you have to head vic the mouse in other words you know you have to immobilize the mouse and so it's been it's been tricky to come up with ways of eliciting interesting behavior from a mouse. That's that's restrained in this way but have begun to you know create very interesting solutions to this like virtual reality environments where the animal can kind of move a track ball. In. An and ask people have kind of. begun to explore what you can do with these technologies I feel like more and more people are asking. Well. Let's try to bring behavior into the picture. Let's try to like reintroduce behavior which was supposed to be what this whole thing was about. And I'm hoping that. Those two trends, the growing interest in behavior and the wide sprint widespread interested what's going on in the I? Will come together to kind of open a new chapter in neuroscience research where there's a kind of a re rebirth of interest in the structure of behavior and its underlying substrates, but that that research is being. Informed by computational mechanisms that were coming to understand in AI. You know if we can do that and then we might be taking a step closer to this utopian future that we were talking about earlier where there's really no distinction between psychology and neuroscience night neuroscience is about studying the mechanisms that underlie. Whenever, it is. The brain is four and. What is the brain for its for behavior? I feel like we could feel like we could maybe take a step toward that now if people are motivated in the right way. Meals Betty. Science. You said neuroscience that's right and especially place like deep minor injuries in both branches of what what about the engineering of intelligent systems. I think, I, think the one of the key challenges that a lot of people are seeing now in I is to build systems that have the kind of. Flexibility and the the kind of flexibility that humans have in two senses. One is that humans can be good at many things. They're not just expert one thing and they're also flexible in sense that they can switch between things very easily and they can pick up new things very quickly because they they very very ably see what a new task has in common with other things that they've done And that's something that our systems to. Blatantly do not have. There are some people who like to argue that deep learning in deep borrow are simply wrong forgetting that kind of flexibility I don't. Share that belief but The simple fact of the matter is we're not building things yet. They do have that kind of flexibility and. And I think the the the attention of a large part of the community is starting to pit it to that question. How do we get that That's GONNA lead to a focus on abstraction it's GONNA lead to a focus on. What in psychology we call cognitive control, which is the ability to switch between tasks the ability to quickly put together a program of behavior that you've never executed before but you know make sense for a particular set of demands. It's very closely related to what the prefrontal CORTEX does on the neuroscience side So I think it's going to be an interesting an interesting new chapter. The reasoning side in cognition side. But let me ask the over romanticized question. Do you think we'll ever engineer in agi system that we humans would be able to love and that would love us back. So have that level in depth of connection. I love that question. And it it it relates closely to things that I've been thinking about a lot lately you know in the context of this human I research there there's social psychology research In particular by Susan Fiske at at at Princeton, the department I used to wear I used to work. where she she dissect human attitudes. Toward other humans. into sort of two dimensional, you know a two dimensional two-dimensional scheme and. One dimension is about ability. You know how how able how capable is is this other person? But the other dimension is warmth. So you can imagine. Another person who's very skilled incapable but very cold. And you wouldn't you wouldn't really highly you might have some reservations about that other person, right? But there's also a reservation that we might have about another person who who elicits or displays human warmth but is. Not Good at getting things done. that. The greatest esteem that we we reserve our greatest esteem really for people who are both highly capable and also. Quite warm right. That's that's like the best of the best this. This isn't a a normative statement I'm making. This is just an empirical is an empirical statement. This is what humans seem this. These are the two dimensions that people seem to kind of like along which people size other people up. In research, we really focus on this capability thing we want to agents to be able to do stuff. This thing can play go at a superhuman level. That's awesome. But that's only one dimension. What's the? What about the other dimension? What would it mean for an AI system to be warm? and. I know maybe there are easy solutions we can put put a face on our AI systems. It's cute. It has big years I mean that's probably part of it but I think it also has to do with a pattern of behavior. A pattern of? You know what would it mean for an AI system to display caring compassionate behavior in a way that actually made us feel like it was for real that we didn't feel like it was simulated. We didn't feel like we were being duped to me that you know people talk about the turing test or some some descendant of I feel like. That's the ultimate turing. Test. Is there. Is there an AI system that can not only convince us that it knows how to reason that it knows how to interpret language but that we're comfortable saying yeah that AI systems a good guy. On the warmth scale whatever warmth is. Intuitive we understand it, but we also want to be able. To yeah, we don't understand it explicitly enough yet to be able to junior it exactly, and that's and that's an open scientific question. You kind of alluded it several times in the human interaction that's the question that should be studied and probably one of the most important questions and he has and Human Humans are are so good at it. Yeah. You know it's not just weird. It's not just that we're born warm. I. Suppose some people are are warmer than others given whatever they managed to inherit but there's also there's also there are also learned skills involved right I mean there are ways of communicating to other people that you care that they matter to you. You're enjoying interacting with them right and we learn these skills from one another and it's not out of the question that we could build engineered systems. I think it's hopeless as you say that we could somehow hand design these sorts of these sorts of behaviors but it's not out of the question that we could build systems that kind of. We instill in them something that sets them out in the right direction. So that they they end up learning what it is to interact with humans in a way that's gratifying to humans are honestly if that's not where we're headed. Out. I think it's exciting as a scientific problem just as he described I I I honestly don't see a better way to enter the talking about warmth and love and Matt I don't think I've ever had such a wonderful conversation where my questions were so bad and your answers Beautiful. So deeply should I really enjoyed it very fun. I as you can probably tell a lie. I really. You know I there's something I like about kind of thinking outside the box and like. So it's going to having finally do that. Awesome. Thanks so much for doing. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Matt Botvinnik. Thank you to our sponsors, the Jordan Harbinger show, and magic spoon low carb cereal. Please consider supporting this podcast by going to Jordan harbinger dot com slash LEX and also go to magic spoon dot com slash lex using code lex at checkout. Click the links by all the stuff. It's the best way to support this podcast an journey Emma, on in my research and startup. Enjoy this thing subscribing on Youtube Review it with the five stars in Apple podcasts the port on Patriarch. Follow on spotify are connect with me on twitter at lex Friedman. Again spelled the recklessly without the E. Just F. R. I. D.. M. A.. N.. And now let me leave you with the words from urologist the s much. Andren. How can a three pound mass of Jelly? They can hold in your palm imagine angels contemplate the meaning of an infinity even question its place Cosmos especially on spiring is the fact that single brain including yours is made up of atoms were forged in the hearts of countless far-flung stars billions of years ago. These particles drifted for eons and light years until gravity and change brought them together here. Now, these atoms now form conglomerate your brain. That cannot only ponder the very stars give birth, but can also think about its own ability to think and wonder about its own ability to wander. With the arrival of humans said, the universe has suddenly become conscious of itself. This truly is the greatest mystery, a ball. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

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Dana Ridenour from FBI Undercover Agent to Author

Unstructured Interviews

1:06:06 hr | 6 months ago

Dana Ridenour from FBI Undercover Agent to Author

"Today as a record this is march fifteenth and that is the two year anniversary of unstructured. This also is episode two hundred so it's a pretty exciting time. I WanNa thank you so much for tuning into this episode and hope that you will find many others in the catalog and please stay tuned to the end where I'll be shouting out so folks that have just been incredible friends to me personally in show now. Today's guest Dana Ridenour Dana is a former FBI undercover operative and she infiltrated groups like the animal liberation. Front she's now an award winning author and this is a fantastic interview discussing how to establish a legend live undercover. And I think you'll really enjoy it. Also I have a livestream where I have former guests of unstructured available for you to ask questions. And I'm happy to announce Dana will make herself available on April sixteenth. So please subscribe to the livestream. That youtube dot com slash Eric. Unle see you can hear it when it happens. I have many other people including two other. Fbi agents coming on. But for today I present to you. Dana Ridenour my name is Eric. And this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people eighteen. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me Eric. I'm looking forward to the interview. Oh not as much as me. I'm really excited because you did something. That is utterly fascinating. The idea of living another life and I've had other guests. Who have done this as well. And it's just something that's really hard to fathom. We watch a lot of TV seal out of movies but there's gotta be some really deep psychological work that has to be done in order to accomplish this other. You're exactly right when you work. The long-term undercover it takes a huge psychological toll on the agent and if whether it's the loneliness the isolation it just you at the end of the case you come out completely different person sometimes good and sometimes for the bad but You're definitely not the same person at the end of it. Depending on the length of time the cases I worked for long-term Mike. Three and four years at a time which is interesting because I've also interviewed Bob. Hamer who did undercover work and I think you may have crossed paths. I don't know if you know each other you both worked out of the L. A. Office okay and I think you overlapped. I think he was in the early eighties. Okay let's see when I was in. La was to thousands. I think I think that's when he was there too but one difference at least what I perceive as he would work three undercover assignments at the same time. Sometimes I did that early on to until I got into the long term stuff okay well. The long-term sounds closer to lay undercover. Kgb Guy of all things right yes. It's a very similar and it's weird because you're obviously doing two four our government but I guess he was doing for his government. I mean both our patriotic. And that's what I think is fascinating. I'm not judging anybody doing anything. Especially when it's for their country. Well it's you give up you basically give up your life when you're going to do the full time undercover and you can't have your ties to your family your your friends. Nobody can know where you are what you're doing so it is a commitment. It's a it's a very deep commitment that you make that you feel strongly about or you wouldn't do it. I mean at least my opinion I felt strongly about my job the cases and the case agents and I had a lot of confidence in the case agents. And that's why I basically gave up for years of being me and taking over this whole different alias So that's the reason I did is I felt. I felt confident in the case. Agent what he was doing well. Let's go kill week. Can we break that down? I would love to hear what exactly happened. Like you know as many details as you can share obviously some things maybe trade secrets but how. How did you come across getting the job? I know that you went to an undercover scolding. Talk about that a little but then actually becoming the other person. Wh What are the steps? What did you do? It was actually kind of funny because my supervisor came to me one day and said I saw the perfect assignment for you. That should have been my cue to run but he said look. We need an agent that looks younger than the age. That could kind of take on this whole hippie persona live in a commune become Vegan and quite honestly Eddie Note. A Vegan was back then so I started researching and he. He wanted somebody to go undercover in the earth. Liberation Animal Liberation Realm and so they needed an agent who has preferably single. Didn't have kids that sort of thing and who could take on this whole different persona so I said it sounded like a good challenge. How Fun going to California for a number of years and so I kind of took it on and in doing so I had to become that person which means I had to learn all about the activists lifestyle. I had to learn about veganism. And it's not just a way of eating. It's a whole way of life so I had to learn about the ideology and what I had changed. Everything had to you know you can't wear leather. You can't eat meat. Not even honey so I was. I had changed what I my look what I would eat. Howard think how talk how would act. I had to change everything to become this person. And veganism thing. I'm thinking about I talk to you beforehand on the interview and I called you. What were you doing at the time? I'm sure I was eating something fishing fishing our the pets that I get the impression that you're you happy a big HABITA- fishing I do. I'm obsessed I'm addicted fishing effect by polls over waiting for me. You know when we get finished here he resigned. I figured that you were like God. I wish this interview could be earlier once I retired. I just I don't know I just started fishing and now I can't stop. That's I'm guessing. You're no longer a Vegan. I have no longer Vegan and a lot of seafood beforehand. I was not to begin beforehand. Now nope that actually to me is one of the roughest parts in my mind to think about is to just it. It changes your diet but that also will change your hormones chemical. Oh it changes every trolling. And that's why when I was preparing for the case I became Vegan. A good amount of time before I ever got California probably close to a year because your body changes your body chemistry changes and you don't feel too great at first and then you go through your body just has to transition over from you know all the pollutants and the meat. I was putting in IT TO FRUIT AND VEGETABLES. I've heard to maybe a minor thing but like Asians Taco about or have talked about stinky. Americans actually will smell different because of your diet. The the activist climb to. They claim that I could never personally tell that mainly because a lot of people I run around with weren't using deodorant either so natural natural. But that's that's what I've heard too. I didn't notice a difference in Smell but but for undercover. You have to do that. Complete twenty four seven because what if they could smell right right and they would come over to my apartment and I couldn't have anything in the refrigerator and my apartment had to be completely clean so they would go and you know get a get a soda or something out of their frigerator and you know it had to be all the stuff in there fruits vegetables it have a packet eggs or milk in there so You know I really had to live the lifestyle. Plus you never know when somebody's watching you even a city the size of La you go to a cafe. You don't know who's around that I mean we live in a big world but in a way it's pretty small too. Oh Yeah Bob. Aamer actually talked about that too right when he was about to do. A payoff drop a couple from his hometown. Happened to be Come into that hotel. I know that that happened to me a couple times stare. Oh really wow wow okay. Well we've got him. Put a pin in that. We'll try to revisit that unless I forget but you established before you even started on day one on the job. You're doing prep work for a month at a time. That's correct okay. And you change your Diet and then you said you went into studying the activism. Now where were you studying? Were you like reading bulletin boards and the like or were you reading actual FBI? Until well? Before I ever got there I was living down in the Virgin Islands. That's where I was assigned at so I was Li I was reading the FBI Bulla. Tens of course The Intel Bulletins. That were coming out about the domestic terrorists and the the groups but I was also reading books written by activists and I was reading Free the animals and all of the the activism books that every activists Kinda reads as they become Into that way of life I learned more probably from that kind of stuff than I did the FBI. Until so you know okay. I I'm asking that because I'M GONNA keep reaching back because I think it's always cool to compare previous guests and things like that but Bob Hamer at talked about how he had to be extremely careful because being in the FBI you have more information about these people and things going on then fill in the blank your character so if you were in conversation to reveal information or or no too much that could be potentially dangerous better damn is absolutely correct and that's one of the things I actually didn't WanNa know a lot of stuff I would tell the case agent. Sometimes you know. Don't don't tell me that I don't need to know that just yet you know and then sometimes I would have the information but that was something that had to be very. Cognizant of is not exposing that I had information that nobody else would have so I kind of always played. I mean I hate to use the term but I always kinda played the dumb blonde. Yeah I went with it and I let the activist teach me and I always pretended to know a lot less than what I did know because I figured by doing so I was less apt to trip over my own. Two feet so That's why I just went in with. I'm new to this. I'm new to this lifestyle. Teach me helped me. Show me how to do this That way if I made a mistake to I could always fall back on new to this lifestyle. Sorry surprised how well that works. And I also have a lot of people who do influence and things like that and negotiation and it sounds like you probably have studied some of these techniques Cher Cher and the best way to become interesting as to be interested in the other person. So if you were always asking them how then they would put you under their wing and he would just become their best friend much more quickly right because the worst undercover is the when the undercovers on the tape. And that's all you hear. Is the cover talking talking talking? You don't ever hear the subject so the targets talking the worst undercover somebody with a big mouth you will you want an end uncovered to be quiet and listen and ask a few questions but to mostly you. Let the let the target stock. Because that's where you're gaining your your evidence in your information from. Is that something that you went over in the undercover training? It was it was that was one of the things we learn how to do but mostly it was learning to adapt adapt overcome deal with sleep deprivation because a lot of undercover work. He you don't really control the hours so you may be up two or three days at a time. And that's when you get a little vulnerable because you're tired and you know you open your mouth to say something and you don't really know what's GonNa come out so part of the undercover school. Was that to finding out if the agents that were wanted to be. Undercovers could actually do it. Can you stand up to three or four days of sleep deprivation and think on your feet still? It was a lot of that kind of thing I was. In the Armenian we had something called sear school which I don't remember what is busy. Essentially a hostage skull or being captured school when they would capture and train people. Fortunately I didn't go through it but it was. You know borderline torture scene. Would you talk? What are you going to give up things like that? Is that some of the training. You guys were doing well. It wasn't as much being tortured but it was. It was a it was a two week school without any breaks at all. You didn't get time off and you were averaging about an hour and a half to two hours of sleep night so you are exhausted by the end of week. Two and you do scenario after scenario after scenario where you didn't have any notice you might have fifteen minutes to prepare and get into character at. You might go from drug scenario where you're buying drugs or selling drugs into of a white. Supremacist I mean it. Was everything up in the air at it was just a crazy. Two weeks at the end of the two weeks about half of the class washed out. Okay I I was wondering was like steel school or something on that really torture. It was more mental torture than anything that would be huge though and that brings me back to another question Hamer. He did the multiple cases but one thing he started to do. He didn't do it early on but I think he does. Did it. Through his career he always went by Bob. That's his first name and that would be the first name that he used for his character. And did you did? I was wondering if you were always Dana. Yes because you've you've loved that name your whole life if somebody yells out patty. I'm GONNA keep walking. I'M NOT GONNA turn around so especially when you're tired. Yes unless you have a really unique name that would be an FBI files or someone could find it just about all the undercovers use their first name and the more common the better right yes. Excellent okay so then you did the training and now did you kind of get pick for that job. I think you did a little undercover before you even do the training. I did in the FBI. If you're going to do anything long term you have to go through the undercover school. But if you're going to do a few little short things the special agent charge can give you special permission to work undercover. And that's what I was doing before I in fact my very first undercover mission was for the. Da they had a physician whose trading drugs for sex and. They didn't have any women. I was in mobile. Alabama is my first office and DA didn't have any women in their office a they called over and ask if they could borrow female so I get the first undercover assignment because I was a young looking female and that was it. I was addicted after that it was an adrenaline rush and a lot of fun and I found my calling at that point. That's awesome and this is a sidetrack but I'm wondering if it's similar I've you'll be my ninth. Fbi agent and I'm interviewing. Yes of those two are women. Is that representative of the overall? Fbi or is there a lot more women than I think? That's probably true. I think the last time I checked I think thirteen percent. Maybe were women. So it's a very low average is about run against out of nine would be okay. I don't think it's changed much and all the years. I think it was probably about ten percent when I came in ninety five so I think it's about thirteen percent now. It's it's not changed too much so it's probably a great opportunity. It is and it's a great career for women. I think a lot of women are kind of scared of law enforcement in general. Because they're afraid. Oh Gosh I'm not going to be able to get married or have kids and That's not the case at all. I mean it depends on what you are now. I love your undercover. You will have you know I was on a drug squad and we worked crazy hours and gangs but if you work say white collar crime or something like that. You're working during the day banker's hours and talking to businessmen things like that so depends on what you work in the FBI did being a young attractive female work to your advantage where people wouldn't immediately suspect or pick up on you being. I always said that women make good undercovers because men will discount you. I mean It's just a fact of life. A woman can walk into a restaurant and may be observed observe for a different reason. A guy walks in and the and the bad guys initially drawn to him thinking cop cop cop but a woman walks then orders. Cup of coffee sits in the corner and nobody will notice. I actually recorded a drug deal when I was in the Virgin Islands sitting at the table. Next to where the drug deal was going on it was picnic table situation. I had a paperback book. I have my bathing suit on and baseball CAP. And I sat right there with the recorder and recorded the whole drug deal and I was probably seven feet from him and they didn't pay attention at all to me. That makes me laugh. That makes me think of the southern aristocracy. How they would just completely forget about the staff or the British royalty or whatever that the staff is just invisible right that they're like furniture and it works to your advantage though you know if you can walk-in I've always said to. It's good to have women on the squads because a a man and a woman can walk in same situation walk into a restaurant and nobody notices them. They'll sit down and you can. They can watch do surveillance whereas two guys walk in and the instantly you're thinking what are they law enforcement so. I think it's always nice to have women on the squads and then I think women do make good undercover agents. I bought a lot of drugs and sold a lot of drugs and nobody paid any mind because he was five foot two female. You know I couldn't hurt anybody right. What do you do in? I don't know if you've gone into this before. But it's a genuine question because drug dealers by nature can be suspicious types. Ha What about when they say? I want you to sample now. I want you to use. Now what does an agent do well with me? I always went in with the I was told him I was a business woman. And I don't sample my product because when you start using that's when your prophet way down because you get hooked on drugs and I always said I'm a business person. I don't use that Shit. And that's that's what I went with so they bought it. Yeah it's it's just how you kind of build up your character before you go in. And I wasn't afraid to walk away if they if they were going to press it then I was GonNa take my money and go elsewhere just like a normal person would and if the deal gotTA deal didn't go in if they were legitimate and I mean they were going to. They would come back to me eventually. I wanted to look as realistic as possible. Okay so you're What you call it your cover your story your background. We called the legend. And that's and the legend was. You had to know your legend just like you did your real life. You had to know your Mom's name and Your Dad's name where you were born where you went to school and because there's a credit history that went with all the stuff too. So if they were smart they had a Pi. I follow you or something like that. They'd probably have access to all that. So if they ask you about say living in Louisville Kentucky when you're in college and you said I never lived in Louisville Kentucky. Well you just messed up. Because they have a credit history that showed you lived in Louisville Kentucky during that period of time so that a lot of the groups did hire private investigators. Or I think it'd be smart and so on that. I've I've had somebody else on Abbey Ellen. Who wrote a book called Dupe? Dennis about competence men be up. Her fiance duped her. But it sounds like you do something very similar in the sense that most skilled con people and Liars Tell Ninety Percent Truth. And it's only that little niggle that night that ten percent that makes all the difference in the world but almost everything else. Yeah lines up like your parents. First names might be the same. That's exactly I tried to keep my undercover life so close to my real life like I had. I have one sister in real life so I had one sister my undercover life. Same type thing. The only thing was when I was the undercover. That was hard will it's the. Fbi made me ten years younger than what? I was so that I had to go back. Because you know when you're in high school and College Jesus is the big thing and you remember the band pop. Culture Girl of the eighties will now suddenly. I'm the girl of the nineties and I didn't even pay attention music in the nineties so I had to start listening to the ninety s music and find out who is who is popular when I was supposedly was in high school and that was a little bit of a rich through my fascinating social study like what would translate over like if you're a fan of this band AIDS in Highschool. You probably be a fan of this other band in the ninety s depending on your click or group in which you hang well to to cover myself on that too. I have one sister in real life and she's younger than me but my undercover life made ones. I had one sister who was older than me. So what I did was in case you know. I got hooked on something eighties and they were looking at me like well. You were young when that song came out. I could say oh man. My sister was a huge Duran. Duran fan or something you know. I had something to fall back on the older sister. That's smart as hell and thinking about my sister seven years older than I am and I got into all of her albums. Yeah my little sister. Did all that to me. So I just reversed it. I would have done the same thing to her. Is Building that legend. Half the fun. It's fun but it. It's very stressful. I mean you have to really make sure this is something you can live with and I used to practice it on airplanes before I'd ever put it into use like if I was traveling. The people are not always. GonNa ask you. What do you do and so I would go into my legend and then that way if they can give me a look about well. How did that work? I realized something didn't work better to mess up on some stranger on an airplane than in real life so I would practice it and I got to where I would get. I had a ritual. I would get in the shower every morning when I get ready and I would go over my legend top to bottom my social security number my date of birth where. I was born my mom's name my dad's name what my dad did for a living and this would be my morning ritual. I would have this in my head because the bad guys may not even ask you about it right away but eventually it's GonNa come. They're gonna ask you when in fact what I was working with my boyfriend at the time. Who's now husband? We were doing a case together. We've been undercover. Probably close to two years and then a subject came to our house that night and started. Just slamming us for questions you know. Well where did you work when you lived in Florida? Wanted to do. And if we hadn't spent the last two years kind of doing that and and drilling each other on on our legend we could have been in trouble because two years. You can kind of forget everything you put into place two years earlier so yeah. I I lived in died by legend. In fact I knew my legend so well. The my case agent brought me a document one day to sign. I signed it and he looked at me. 'cause I can't believe you did that. I said what he did. You sign your undercover name to an official. Fbi DOCUMENT NOW. Have to go back to office and get another one as well. Why didn't you bring to? That's actually great though because that means you're defaulting to that yes which probably kept you alive. Yes and not only. Did I keep the first name? I kept initials. Because you know how you start to sign a document you just start signing so fast. I wanted the same initials. I've always kind of used my middle initial with things that if I got Dana. Her I could be sloppy. Okay yeah so that would work for me. Yes you can barely even read these on the first name. That's what I'll say. I'm training to be a secret. Not that I'm lazy and sloppy. Did you also have a multi salon? Last name rhymed almost or Santa Similar. Dave sound kind of similar yes. It sounded similar again with that ninety percent or made my undercover last name more common so if they did start looking at that you know there's just more beyond that's perfect to actually that's what busted on Jack Barsky. Yeah he he came here and he was so perfectly and he actually had quit the KGB and have been living his life just as a family person. Normal job Executive in tech firm and like ten years later One of the high level. Kgb people defected with a bunch of information and some of that information was you have a mole here or you know this Guy Check. Barsky who died in fifty five. I mean it was a kit and that was his name. What guess what. Jack Barsky is not a really common name now. They looked and they said hey. Here's this Jack Barsky here and then the FBI literally moved next door to him found out so that right there if he was Jack Williams He would have been a lot harder to find. They never would've figured it'd be like L. Never especially that definitely. So that's that's really fascinating that you went that way. So if they were searching they would wind up getting things confused anyway. At which one is it? Wait she this one or that one and you could kind of squeaky around. Yeah and when I was doing a lot of the the the quick hits Where I was doing multiple cases at once I actually had multiple. Aliases and I found. That was harder juggling who I was versus long term stuff. And there's one time I was in an airport and I was walking through the airport. I had no idea where it was it just. I had been traveling so much in using so many different. Aliases that I had to stop. And I went up to one of the monitors and saw Miami International Airport. I was like okay. That's where I'm at but that that's when it gets dangerous to and you start doing too much undercover work that I prefer the long term stuff. I'm one alias. I'm one person and I can really dive into that persona and I don't have to juggle. That's interesting Bob Hamer actually went the other way. He had one alias and was in multiple assignments and I guess the thing. Is it running a warehouse where people sell cigarettes and liking children and being a pedophile could all coexist at the same time right and the stuff is a lot of stuff? I was doing really couldn't yeah I was out on the East Coast. Ryan drugs are I was someplace else selling drugs and then that didn't really go with the whole Earth Liberation Animal Liberation to this dress did they overused potentially because you're such a rarity being a female undercover that's undercover as a volunteer Ver- voluntary situation. You have to volunteer for the problem is most agents enjoy it and will not Sino so then it kind of falls back in the agent to know when you've done too much but in my situation I probably did do too much. I'll be honest The last time I did close to seven years in the this haram out in California did a four year assignment took a little time off and then came back into the three year assignment and then I went back to. I got transferred to Florida. I was still doing drug cases and I I was probably doing too much of it. And when the transfer happened from California to Florida. We kind of fell through the system with the the safeguard assessment. Which is the psychological stuff and instead of going through the proper safeguarding. We kind of got both of us were thrown back on just squads working squads and that was that was kind of bad and in the long run that did a little bit a psychological damage that Took me a while to unravel. I wanted to ask you about that because that was something that went over with Jack Barsky. He talked about an. I'm probably saying it wrong. So hopefully audience was since the interview to get exact but he went through and still suffers today in almost split personality problem and maybe his exacerbated because of the dual languages being born of a whole nother different culture different language Cetera but he was commenting that he wished that there was a skilled therapist. That could help him work through these issues. Did you have an opportunity to get therapy or anything to Kinda help? You regain grounding or is it possible while the bureau does have a really good program And it came about after the Donnie. Brasco if you've seen the movie. Donnie BRASCO were Joe. Histone was undercover with the Mafia after the FBI realize what kind of psychological toll it took on him. They established a unit. That all undercovers have to go through. You do psychological testing you meet with a counselor. You'll meet with an experienced undercover agent. Who's done a lot of work and it gives you an opportunity to talk things through an also gives them an opportunity to look for if you're going off the rails and you need to be pulled in so if if it's used properly then it's a great system why happened to as ours was just you know. Transfer happened and we just fell through the cracks. Now what I should have done as I could have requested that I could have said. Hey you know I think I need to talk to somebody. I WanNa go to Virginia. I need to talk to somebody to safeguard and they would've sent me. There is no doubt that they would have said sure What happened was I got back and I still had the anarchist attitude. I still felt like a bad guy. I had a badge gun again but I still felt like bad guy and started doing things that were out of character for me mouthing off to my supervisor and getting up in his face and and I had a supervisor that for the first time in my career that I didn't really get along with didn't see eye to high with and he and I had some run INS and after a while it was actually him that discovered that I was still living this whole undercover life. I had this whole you know messed up thing going in my head and he was the one that said you need to start acting the contagion you need to come back to your roots need to think about who you are. No longer an anarchist. You're not running around with these people you're an FBI agent at. I actually chose to go back to Quantico at that point he asked what I wanted to do and I said I wanted to go back to quantico and I wanted to. Volunteer is a counselor and take a classroom and which was unusual. Because that's an assignment. Nobody wants because you have to live in the dorm for five months with the class and said once agents for just like I don't WanNa give give up five months of my life to go live in Virginia but that's kind of one I wanted to do and he let me do it. And it was the best thing I ever did because it really did get me back to the fidelity bravery integrity why became an FBI agent. It was just a positive experience. The motivation was there for all the new agents. And so I kind of worked my self through it. I guess that was my way of fixing myself after team taught before similar thing. I'm sure that as you counseled other people you would see things in yourself ago. Oh wait and you know the self-discovery you learn so much when you teach because you then have to explain whatever principle it is and then finally go. Oh I didn't completely understand what it is. I was teaching until now that I have to exactly regurgitated or digested and SURPA Coutts. That's that's fascinating and it sounds like a supervisor. You didn't get along with him but was a good influence on you in the end it was. I mean he really was like. I said we didn't get along very well at first and I probably was a thorny inside but in the end he did the right thing and because he did do the right thing that made me a whole different person. When I retired I retired. Happy Content Well adjusted and I wasn't quite frankly when I got to Orlando or I landed on this poor guy squad. I was kind of a of a messed up. I was a mess and so By the time I the last year or so I became myself again. Well in a another reach back Jack. Barsky talked about in the KGB. They assumed a shelf life of an agent of approximately ten years and cover deep undercover before they go native. And I tell you what ten years might even be too long depending on what you're working because I worked at me. It's one thing if you're working the mob drug dealers people who are just kind of nasty people. Sometimes but when you're working the people I was working the activists they're really nice people. I mean right there there at intelligent. They're fun I mean I love animals. I mean that was one of the reasons why was for the assignment. The majority of them are really decent. People there's just this very small group of people that go off the rails and and do the the high level criminal activity but for the most part ninety five percent of the people that I was in contact with. Were really decent nice human beings and so you start to think like an act fast you start to. I mean you're seeing a lot of the propaganda videos and some of it's real some of it's not but she starts to you understand why they think the way they think and Especially that because what a lot of them are fighting. I think is a very real horrible problem. It's the tactics. You have the issue and I thought the I even understand why they resort to the tactics. It's frustration. They tried to do it the right way. They try to change laws. But you and I both know how hard that is and and if it does happen. It's teeny little increments and it takes years to do so. They get frustrated and they burned something down or blow something up to get attention which is wrong but right. It's understandable. Kind of feel like it is a slippery slope with them in a sense that nothing's happening so they push the envelope just a little bit. Yes and they see a reaction in a lot of people think that I dislike the activists and that's not the case at all. I mean I have huge respect for him. I grew up in Kentucky so where I grew up. We didn't really have the whole activism community and so California was such a difference Area the live because activism is such a part of the lifestyle there especially with the young adults and college and it was really cool but had I probably grown up out in California. There's no data. I would have been an activist. I would have been right there along the lines with the people of that. I was now investigating but I have. I have up. Moshe sexy activist. It's just the few small that small percentage that did resort to the illegal activities. And I mean really illegal not glue and Lacson throwing paint I still have no problems with that kind of stuff. Okay so are you kind of half an activist right now I am. I really am I I I have trouble. I do eat a little bit of red meat but very very little. I do see though but I still think about. I still think about it to be honest with you. It's harder for me to enjoy that occasional burger. I have because I do think about The years when I was Vegan and I also I would never ever in my life where for and that has come from the years that I was involved in activism. I didn't understand the fur industry. I didn't understand the atrocities behind it. Now I do. There's different ways to keep warm. You'll never catch me in a fire when I see far. I it just enrages me at that. That was part of living and activists lifestyle Factory Farming. You know is horrible. I mean it's just it's terrible but in the saying is if if slaughter houses had glass we'd all be Vegan and that's true and so you can't help but live that lifestyle for as long as I did and not have some of that rub off and I guess on the back of my last book. I think I put what you pretend to be become and in a way I think part of that is is true. What you pretend to be you become. Hopefully it's the good parts and bad parts and they'll be hard because I'm guessing you establish genuine relationships with them. All the you had a different name you had the feelings you had for some of the people had to be just as real. I did I did. I had one of our targets was she and I were so close up and we are so similar we liked all the same things She was so well read. We could talk books and movies and we went to the movies together. We spend a lot of time together and I read. She and I would probably still be best friends. It turned out. I wasn't an FBI agent. And now she of course hates me but I mean she was a very nice person and we had a good time. And it was. It was legitimately a good time and we went to the movies. We laughed and we cried. And we we we shared of oceans and we shared stories and of course her stories real monroe made up but it was still sharing and That's hard it's hard to leave behind your books. And you've written several now are they? They seem to be autobiographical to a degree. Especially the first one. The first one rally is is part of your intent or is this just a byproduct to reach back to the community like and almost talk to them. Because you can't keep contact with the you're separated. Are you doing that after fashion with your characters in the books expressing yourself in your feelings and maybe they can read them and understand more? Well I I was always careful not to not say anything bad about the activists because of the fact that if they did read on my wanted them to know how I really felt about him and so my activists characters with the exception of course the main characters are always going to have somebody bad but the majority of the peripheral characters are based on real people that had worked and they were good people. Nice people of course changed all the names and stuff but a lot of the personality are there but I think may layer the books As therapy to just get the emotions and the feelings and everything out and get it on paper and then the fact that it was kind of entertaining and it was different than most. Fbi books. I just kind of happened and after I wrote the first book I had such a good time and I didn't WanNa ride the run of the mill. Fbi Book. I mean there's just too many of those out there. If I was GONNA write a book I wanted to write a book. That was factual as far as procedure and things at the FBI would really do. There's just so much crap out there that you read that be. I wouldn't do that. We couldn't get out our mutual friend. Jerry Williams is taking a stand on that and does a great job. Does she's grist. No yes no. Have you thought about writing a memoir? I mean you stories fascinating enough and it would. It would be very interesting because then you could talk directly to things. I get that a lot. I've had a lot of people. Ask Me when I'm writing a memoir. I don't know that I will. I enjoy writing the fiction so much and it's it's just so much fun. I'm not sure that I would have as much fun. Writing a memoir and also with memoir you would have to contact every single agent that you put in the book ask ask permission and things like that and I don't know I I guess mainly because I don't really read memoirs I read fiction so fiction just seem like the route for me to go and I enjoy. It is it. Is it more pleasant to because a memoir is a little on the nose to the point where it's fiction? You have the opportunity to change things that you really would rather gone to another way. That's family terry tip. There's a lot of stuff that I probably don't want out there. That happens so back to the fiction of your legend. Establishing yourself because I don't WanNa leave that behind you went to you studied. You became a Vegan. You read all the literature now to establish yourself did you just move to La. Get an apartment and just start hanging out. How do you feel that? In the two cases it was two different ways the first time. Yes the first time. I was working in northern California. The the case agent didn't have any kind of sources are confidential informants. That didn't have anybody that could do any introductions so basically that's what. They told me they said here. Here's the people were looking at would like for you to get close to them Good luck and so what do you do? This is where it's really interesting because okay plop you get an apartment. Now you have your. I'M GONNA say targets I don't. There's another term. That's exactly right the targets and so I started to I kinda followed him around a little bit to find out where they hung out. Because you've got to make a a meeting. It's gotTa look natural and so. I started going to coffee shops Vegan restaurants in and I did some above ground stuff to like protest if yeah just show up at the protest and hey I just moved here you know looking for France like minded people to hang out with and so that's kind of the first step is find out where these people go where they hang out then you have to make it look like a natural meeting and so I went to even went to an animal rights conference and it was at La and that was great because everybody was basically one huge rooms. I met all kinds of people. A lot of them. Were completely innocent. Weren't doing anything wrong. But still that was a good way to kind of Segue in to the those relationships. Equally important to hang out with the innocent as well as the Target so to make it look real. Yes definitely because I mean if you don't have any friends in the people you hang out with our your targets that looks suspicious. I mean if every time they call you jump and saying Oh yes I can do that I can do that. I mean you have to be seen elsewhere. You have to have a life to talk about other things. Oh you know Joey. I went to see a movie last week. Have you seen our? You know we're thinking about and sometimes just that was a good way of blending in you know you while you were observing them. Did you also observe like who their friends were? And maybe have that as a away again like sometimes if you sort of start talking to a friend you almost get introduced to them out course through the Front. That's that's a great way to do it. Actually and that's the way I would always prefer to do it. And you kind of look for the weak link and I to put it as a weak link. But you'd look for the person who is the easiest to talk to was me. I grew up in the south and if I heard southern accent boy. I was beeline into the southern accent. 'cause southern people like to talk and they like to The friendly usually and they like to introduce you so if I ever heard a southern accent that was the direction I was GonNa go Because I figured that was gonna be an easy person to talk to and get introduced from. That's true and you probably could use that. Because the view of Southerners California One yes others. Aren't that bright. If you ask them you know and and our chatterboxes so you probably. Hi How you doing? I'm bub-bubba Here's the Ruben. Off The truck right but It was great. So that's what I did is I look for. I look for that weak link that person that I thought I could penetrate the fastest and get the most bang for my buck the most introductions from now to have a proper cover I mean. Did you go apply and get a job and work somewhere the first time in my case. I did not The second I was I was kind of a college students has taken classes and I did actually take a night class said so. I was taking guitar lessons. They made me see me running around the campus and I have my guitar slung over my shoulder and say stop talk of where you had an entire lesson so I did normal things like take guitar lessons and took a night class and things like that to Kinda Ville time and to look like a normal person because youth. Ba- look you took advantage without any. Could be a little more irresponsible and it was kind of fun now. The second long-term case that I worked in southern California down. La that was a situation where I can't give away too much information but the FBI sometimes will have what we call storefronts and that's an effort business. It's a it looks like a normal business but it's FBI Ron and Tulsa honeypot. Yes and so. That's that can be seen. Sometimes if that's the case I'm GonNa Guess that some of them are are long established to some of them are so far and so that was the situation is that I had kind of an in there. I had Somebody to do some introductions for May and ahead of job So I but in the other side I had a job which means I worked all day and then Iran and on the weekends and so I was literally working twenty four seven. I mean between the job and running around it was it was exhausting and that was why we needed a second agent in that case and that is where my boyfriend came along and we used him as a second agent mainly to take some of the pressure off. You know one person having to work fulltime and run with targets you could at least split up the work you know and say here. Can you open the store for half a day and take care of this? Get some sleep when actually I would think it would be even stronger but I wanNA compare and contrast a little bit on that because your first time you were completely on your own as you put it. You know you're continuously in the role doing whatever you're going to be doing all the time. How do you sustain yourself? If you're not allowed to talk to your family. I mean. Did you have any contact whatsoever? Very little contact with my family very little. How would you do it? I had a Throwaway phone just a burner phone that I Kevin Hidden and occasionally I would. I would call my mom like once a week and usually go outta town and so wouldn't be overheard and things like that might take that with me and I call her the phone that somewhere completely different so it wasn't even at your place you'd have to go to the phone wherever it will actually had Had A safe that was built into the closet. He couldn't couldn't see elk. I kept it in and kept my real. Id and a few things like that and in the safe in case I needed it. 'cause you know you never know what can happen. How do you cope with that stress? What what were some mechanisms or things that you use? It was very lonely. I had an outstanding contact agent We used to call handlers. But other may term contact agent I had an outstanding contact agent. He was wonderful but he was well known in the animal rights world so to meet with him. I had to go way outside of town. I mean we had to go our outside of town just to be able to sit down and have lunch and and kind of decompress. So it wasn't like pianist could go grab a cup of coffee and talk. If anybody saw us together then it was over but he was very good about being able to at least call me from his undercover lied under my undercover phone and just chat talk and he had kind of tell when I was starting to get really lonely but it is just the fact that laifa my undercover my real birthday rolled around and I remember sitting there on my real birthday with no phone calls nothing to do. Fill and sorry for myself. All only my undercover birthday rolled around all the targets showed up at my house to take me out to dinner and we went partying. So you start to think all these are my real friends you know they really care. Welby at did they did. But you have to kind of stop yourself from thinking well. How far do you take this friendship? He'd you can't. You can't go over to the dark side just because you know you like everybody that you're hanging out with but But it does happen sometimes so in the second case when I had a partner and that was a whole different feel to it. You know you go home at night and you could bounce ideas off each other and you weren't lonely and then he you know occasionally I'd say something and he would laugh and said Julius spoken like a true activists you know and he would catch me what I would start to slide a little bit It's a slippery slope. You just have to be careful. Did he come out a little bit? activity himself A. I'm not sure what you're asking city of. I said you're a half an activist. Another half of an activist and not as much as what? Now probably not. I'm trying to think if he picked up any of the probably now now he was happy to get back to be able to eat as burger all right well. Thirty compartmentalize. Well how do you deal with that? That sense of betrayal. You know I a sensitive person and way more sensitive than most undercover agents. I think I think that was ice. Queer scored really high on the empathy. Part of the psychological 's which is not a good thing for an Undergrad undercover. But I do have a very sensitive nature at an. I am very empathetic so I honestly hurt my feelings. A little bit with they were all you know They dimed us out and they put my face on. The website is a snitch in an agent. And all those all true. It's still Kinda hurt. My legs and I had to tell myself could be ridiculous. You know they're doing what they have to do. That's that's their job. Their jobs are activist. I betrayed them so I shouldn't feel I shouldn't get my feelings hurt because I did the portrayal but it I will be honest. Did it higher feelings a little bit. The do you wish in some ways. You could have half hour hour just to sit down with any of that. You were absolutely closest with and to say look this is made. This is why this is what I the person I was. The closest with probably would not be in the same room with. She was very now she would not even consent to thirty minutes. I did have a situation where I had a fellow email me and it was an ugly email. You know threatening email white. You're in California. Aw Ad I emailed him back. My husband's so mad at me he goes. I can't believe you did that enough. Because of course he found me on my website and everything sure emailed him back and I said look. Nobody went to jail on my watch at less. They were hard core doing stuff for all. I mean blowing things up. Actually I mean I didn't put the people horde and the cats. I didn't put the first people I didn't put any of those. I didn't write reports on any of those people. So if you're an honest activist just doing low level activism stuff as far as you know breaking the law then have at it. I didn't care I was just looking for the people that were doing the the major stuff that the FBI was interested in. So and I told him that I said I was doing my job. You were doing your job you know. And he actually wrote me back. This poor this fella had gone to prison not because of me because of another another agent who put him in prison so he actually done time for arson and he wrote me back and said you know what you're right. You're doing your job and I. I'm not even in the movement anymore. I don't even hang out with activist anymore. I'm going back to school and all that I was thinking. Why are you coming down on Hick but if felt good to just throw my side out there a little bit? You just say you know. Let's talk. Yeah and would I go? He's what I'm eating California for coffee. Oh Hell no you know. There's no and that's where email is probably nice because you can establish a full. I guess skype to or whatever but yeah keep in the distance and with no revealing things behind right. You know because everybody always asked me. Why are you scared? Are you afraid they're going to like come to your house and staff and you know I really not. I mean like I said the majority of people I dealt with were law abiding folks and decent people are not gonNA cut me down. Would I do book tour in end up in La Probably not I mean why. Why poke the bear he? Now because would they hurt me. Probably not with my car. Be on fire when I come out of the arena. Where they're probably so you know so there's no way I'm going to go out there and poke the bear and and and you know there are many keys ready for your vehicle all right well to finish out. I do WanNa hear. You said something a aside. Dimed you out Okay well you mean with the transfer. How he we're emergency transferred? Oh sure yes well we. There was a freedom of information. Act Got a lawyer out in California. Did Freedom of Information Act her about two hundred activist now normally very careful about information they give on open cases which they didn't give any information on the open case however the case I had worked previously in California was closed case and that information went out to the targets and one of the targets who is the closest to who had become very close friends with she read the reports and knew exactly who who was the head made the report. It was single source information. Everything came from me and she knew and she knew I was ally at the time because it's a small. They operate in sales but still a everybody knows everybody in the Movement for the most part so she knew I was in L. A. She picked up a phone. Call Down there and dimed us out and said you have a snitch. I don't know if it's cop but out of its. She's working for the cops but this is who she is and Yeah turned ugly. We were transferred from the West Coast to the east coast. Basically overnight is was that a mistake of the FBI to put because of it being such a tight community. I think it was. I think one. I think it was a mistake but two. I think it was mistake. Pretty much not telling the act of undercover agents that this information had gone out but if you think about it it was probably some you know low level Clark going through documents and she looked up the name cases close and are he. You know an stamped it This is good to go. And you know you can't expect somebody working as As Clark are To understand all these ties I mean as an agent. It took me forever to really understand. How closely knit they were and how close the ties were it's I. I don't know that it was the fault of the person who set out the information. I do blame the FBI for not making that clear that. Hey if it's this number case we need to be extra careful what we send out and that should have been an agent should have been called making that call. Probably not just some spor support person that got stuck with the job or maybe there needs to be more flags on the system. Exactly Yeah I think I think investigators should look at that stuff to versus just a a support person in a wonder if that's even more of a problem now then when you were doing it because I don't think there were facebook at the time or was there there is facebook. I was very careful with facebook because of the facial recognition programs. They're really good now but I didn't have anything in my real name. I didn't have a facebook account or anything stuff in my real name. I did and my undercover name and I was careful but you have to be careful with friends like you go to a party and your friend post a picture and then your failing connects and rising. Now you're in trouble so I was always really careful at. I was told all my friends. Please don't posting pictures of me. You know this well. What about undercover? Because you're doing assignments and you're with a group of one and as you put it there close to each other. They're probably all facebook friends right and each other personnel. When I was working out in California the two big cases that I worked up there I had the same alias. I use the same thing that was what caused it to crumble. But I had to. Because you know you can't work in northern California in the activist community under this name and then come back in southern California under this name. They would have known that right away. Wow it seems like there just weren't enough of you guys now. Why can you need more undercover? Yes would have been at least you could split it up and have one person dropping a dime and you'd be completely innocent of it so then it would be more confusing Figuring out who did what yes incident. I think we used to call him building a wall. Where you'd have and we did that with the informants to head an informant giving really good information. You didn't WANNA burn that. Informa- are put their life in danger than you'd build a wall you maybe have an undercover come in and take that information to go one step further and then another undercover may become in taken one step further so when it did come out in court documents that inform it that was way down the line That was kind of an unimportant part of the of the wheel at that point. And you'd have the agents testified instead of using the end the the confidential informant. That makes us did. Is it possible that maybe the state's attorney is our guest who you don't work with states attorneys federal but? Us attorneys? Did they sometimes a maybe make deals with lower ones to flip in order to not burn the undercover? You know like if all the information is coming from one of the people who was arrested you may be don't know necessarily but the undercover because at persist plan out well normally in most cases yes however with these domestic terrorism With the activist community. They're very hard to flip very hard true believer day. I've seen people go to prison for twenty years. Instead of giving up information be much you'll arrested drug dealer and they'll flip overnight. They'll give you everybody they've ever dealt with. But she feels yet you arrest activists and they won't they believe because it's it's their beliefs there. They truly believe in their movement and they'll go to jail to protect each other which is admirable but it makes it difficult for forsman and they know it they know it makes it difficult for law enforcement. Well they're incentives. I guess are different because they're not really profiting off this. Their intentions are are true. And you're while now that had to be quite head trickery almost prefer going after the drug dealers or whatever because he don't care. Psychologically it was easier off easier will to pull out because I know you have to get fish. What does Dana have coming back? Well I am working on a fourth book. It's not an FBI book though. I've decided that I'm going to leave the series for a little while. Not say that I won't come back to Lexi because I like her. She's a lot of fun to write. But I was ready to veer off and do something different. So I'm right in the fourth book. It has nothing to do with the FBI is not a law enforcement buckets. Basically cross genre a little bit of literary fiction kind of women's fiction and About a group of Friends of a certain age Coming together after a tragedy and kind of reinvent themselves so it's not. Yeah How's it going? It's going pretty well except for the the fishing keeps interfering. You'd have a nice day. It's hard for me not to be out there fish. Are you imagine? The fishing is therapeutic. It is it is and you know I retired from the FBI and launched my first book the same day so I never took a day off. I went from one career straight into a second career. Which looking back hindsight that was kinda crazy. I taken off but I didn't so I really think that this is the first time I've really let my brain rest and and I'm enjoying. I'm enjoying just kind of being on the water and relaxing and not doing anything while some now people can find out more about you and what you're doing it. Dana Ridenour DOT net. That is correct. All right we'll Dana. This has been fantastic. It's been a lot of fun. Eric thank you for having me. Wow wasn't Dana fantastic. I hope you take the opportunity to tune in and ask her questions yourself on the livestream coming up on April sixteenth. But don't wait until then I have Jerry Williams coming up this week and you can ask questions immediately now. I wanted to think a few people who have been just such good friends and really helping out the show. There's old African proverb that if you want to go quickly go alone but if you want to go far go together and I feel that's a special case and these are some of my closest friends and I would like to. I'm limited to ten people and if I leave anybody off. I apologize profusely in advance but Tyson Franklin of it's no secret Joe Pardo of indie podcastone also business a joke. Paro rebranded to dreamers Andy Wong of inspired money Brent Basham of potted dot net. Now I have a real special shadow to Christopher Locke head of follow your different. He has been practically a mentor for me and giving me such wonderful guidance and friendship and I cannot thank him enough Jason Filipo another just incredibly why source of grumpy all geeks. And he is a master producer of incredible amount of shows. That are on the top fifty. Also WanNA think Allen of open mic. We have kind of grown up together on the show. Larry Roberts readily random Randall. Kenneth Jones of Jones dot show is just a great friend to have and last Stephen Veronica Davis of pod. Sound school and oops. I guess I cheated. That's actually eleven people but since they share the same last name. I'm going to call them one. Thank you everyone so much couldn't have done it without you please. Everybody consider checking all their shows and everything. They're doing thanks again.

Fbi FBI Bob Hamer California La Dana Ridenour Dana supervisor Jack Barsky Virgin Islands California Virginia Eric Florida Kgb Guy KGB L. A. Office Mike Eddie Note baseball Dana Ridenour
Anne-Maartje Oud the personal behavioral consultant and non-verbal communication specialist

Unstructured Interviews

53:38 min | 4 months ago

Anne-Maartje Oud the personal behavioral consultant and non-verbal communication specialist

"Before we get started. I just wanted to tell you that. Today's interview was also a video interview that can be found on my youtube channel. Eric Hunley I also have left streams? And if you listen to this the date it comes out my livestream later today is with Thomas Becora of the CIA. If you don't catch it live that's fine. You can always catch a repeat. I have others like Rob Andrew Rica the FBI as well as Dana Ridenour and Jerry Williams also of the FBI and on the channel. You will find some great video interviews like Henrik sexiness. I have a livestream with him as well. He is known as the Darren Brown of Sweden. And I'm really proud to say coming extremely soon. I Have Jack Barsky. Jack is the undercover KGB OPERATIVE. Who lived in the United States? For ten years. He will be on the livestream and he will be able to answer your questions in the chat now for today. I bring you and modest shea. Ou'd and we discuss workplace communication. My name is Erica. And this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today we are joined by a fantastic person. I'm going to try the name probably mutilate it but an much and Monte out. Marta and Marci out and yes I will be cutting head any matt. How're you doing today? I'm good and I'm impressed because it's such a terrible name to pronounce if you're not from the Netherlands. Sorry let's say you did your best but you can always call me and during this conversation because you have this tongue twister going on Seoul I will. Yeah that's that's Nice isn't it? Yeah no and your specialty is going into corporations and exploring or working with would it be workplace conflict or just workplace communication. I would say communication because if you just say conflict that's not always the case. Sometimes it's people will want to be more self assured all they are working in a team and they want to do better so I would say communication although that is very broad We always say it's about behavior so we come in businesses until about behavior. Okay and to put everybody on track. You were recommended to me by the Great Joe. Navarro who is possibly the best in the world at body language if not. He's in the top five and of course he is going to your conference and gum curse had nagging him mutual friend of ours so definitely enjoy that but body language then and that's something I cover lot is part of what you explore what I'm interested in though and I have found that we worry about body language and we say okay. The arms closed off. Or are they doing this? Or they're scratching their nose. That's cool but what do we do with it question? Well let me start with the ONS cross because every time I start election and Joe will say the same. It is always seen as A. We know that isn't it means. Somebody's closed off. You know and then everybody thinks. Hooray we know something about body. Well let me say I. It's it's cold a south hug and that will really says something. So it's not. It's not like a shield. It's nuts we could. We tried to comfort yourself all the time. So that's one thing I always want to address and secondly it is exactly what you say. We have to look at everything. It is not just one tiny thing here or there. Whatever you always have to look at the whole body would also and this is why I love doing. My job is everything that is influencing the situation so The interaction between you and me is already different than when you have an interaction with somebody else and you might have the same body language but when the other person is different. There's an interaction going on. And there is different body language going on and then you also have the setting so to make a long story short. What can we do with? It is analyzed can use to analyze but then you have to adapt it to the situation because if the situation is going fantastic well while then. Nobody's in trouble and we love it but usually or you can say. Sometimes in business situations there carries off what goes wrong and that is fantastic if we can read the body language but also adjusted now. I've had a lot of people on chase. Hughes is a great example of it and what he recommends and others is to just spend a little time. You've got to find a baseline. Is that what you do? Because you can't read somebody if you don't know what they act like normally. Yeah but I absolutely I fully agree on and what I would like to add is also your own baseline because what we do a lot. So when you talk about non verbal communications a lot of people always focus of the other person but for what I try to do with. My business is making people aware of their own body language. How do you do this? When do you feel comfortable? So when you're in a situation and you kind of realize hey him doing something that I normally don't do then you can use it. Oh maybe I'm uncomfortable so I would definitely go for baseline but mostly your own baseline knowing how you will you will be here is and what your preferences. This interesting knows that. Get into Marine and trying to shall we say approach people in a mutually comfortable manner? I don't I don't know if I'm working that well but some people are Dutch and a bit more direct or they may be more flowery language or they may be more introverted again. Is that something that you need to look at it in yourself to to kind of maybe calibrate with up to get the fantastic would think it's very important if you calibrate Well as Joan of are also says a I also teach that is? It's about comfort for both people so fully mirror. Somebody you see people doing this. Sometimes after cools over know about mirroring and the in order to try to exactly what the other person does that is not authentic. So it's not aligned with yourself if you are able to come to this level where you mirror the behavior of the other inundated also incentive for you and also comfortable for you then you see that the confidence is going and that's really a three helpful specially business situation so. I think we only had that awkward situation like this is not this is not aligned. Yeah well this starts to get into the other subjects and I think I've spoken to you in the past about how I feel that reading body language and persuasion and even marketing are all part of a spectrum and the calibration the marine and the comfort level is it sometimes a technique to sort of Mir and then start shifting so it's like follow follow lead. Not Quite sure how you soon. Maybe you could elaborate like you. Start to get a rhythm. It's Sorta like when people are sitting together. Their breath will start to line up overtime. Even the heartbeats can align go and and try to be receptive and open to the other person and in speaking in the same manner and then kind of start shifting your behavior so you follow them to sort of log into it and then you shift at like a persuasion techniques almost into hypnosis stuff but I didn't know if that was something that you practice are observed I think there's so many different techniques people use and what you see is at with alignment thousand ways and especially for instance if you think about Chris Voss when he expecting Goshi those kind of things really important but if what I always try to stick it back to who are we and we are having a conversation and if you feel comfortable and I feel calmed comfortable we can achieve things and very very simplified but if you if you think about it too much like oh now. I'm going to adjust this. I don't think it works for people. I think when people really start to connect with our own behavior and observe and see how they can make somebody feel comfortable without kind of acting. Because that's a risk in these Things when we talk about nonverbal communication and alignment and influencing others but if it's genuine but also with comfort for yourself on the others I think then what you said is is happening. Maybe naturally no that makes and maybe some of us being led him because of interrogation and things of that sort. That's different. I think especially when you read all the books about interviewing techniques in situations where you really want to extract something on the high pressure high stress. That is so much different than you. And I having compensation because we're trying to align here as well in our with a video coal. It's still so different than we would be together. Really would focus on each other in non villa communication. That's a masterful segue that you just did. Because one of my questions is how do we establish communication relationships over video which everybody in the world is doing? At the moment I heard the day somebody said When not made for two D communication and the presence of would make for Three D. Communication? I would like to say we're made for forty communication. You know you have these movies whether it's four D. Where you can see everything but also this smell and movement and everything and with a lacking of that. It's really difficult for people these days to actually come across in the way that they want to come across but also that the alignment is so much harder because We try and it's. It's nice that we have this equipment to communicate in a different way than just a phone but it's difficult. It's very difficult so trying to use as much as you see me. You stand very still you see me working with my hands. All the time which could be distracting. But I'm so used to emphasize you know we needed talking. This helps to make a point. Well it's how you naturally are comfortably communicating. Which is which is perfect and I have A. I don't know if it's been written somewhere but have a theory that there are three people in the conversation and what I mean by that is. Each person has their own elements. But the two people together that particular chemistry's reflecting out a third entity if you will because you talk to your husband and a different way than you talk to your boss. You talked to this percent different way than somebody else. And the way to people interact is creating another energy and then is the third. This is interesting. I've never heard this before. What would you say the third Hesam Avenue the third persons like a reflection? Like if you're on the outside looking at them you see you see the other but then you see the interactions between them. And that's like a third entity. I don't know how to explain them. You know this is stuff that is coming up with completely ridiculous. No no no no no let me. Nothing is ridiculous and because who knows that might be the case it's It's actually we could try to the what would be interesting if he videotape people. You see people. Here's a great example. You've got the workplace environment. Now you have to employee's and they'll have a lot of chemistry and when they are together. They're both their chemistry rises. And you feed off of this energy because you know they're just going back and forth and riffing on each other and it's almost like a a magical thing going forward then you get somebody else who walks in the room completely toxic to one or the other and the interaction between those two people both of them to become something completely different and then you're drying energy off of this negative energy between the two of them. That's the third. I never looked at it that way. I think I always a think if what I understand is if you can when you walk into a room and you can feel this tension going on but I kind of try to see that in the behavior of the other. I've never looked at his enter as energy or something. More of your mixing to things if it's like oil and water don't mix right but then things do you don't have that negative energy without both people together. Okay and I think that's a very important factor to is. How how do they interact with one another? And is that creating this toxic blend instead of one or the other maybe the combination and then find out? What is it? Can we add in? Sometimes you add a third person and then the whole energy can shift yet again. Well that I fully agree. Am I'm just curious why you call that energy? So why home because it no? It's not an attack well. They might be Dutch. Sometimes when people talk about energy it becomes more soft like you say. I'm curious what what you mean by that. I mean it is literally without the two of them together. The this overall mixed does not exist and that makes us powerful enough that I almost consider that the third person. Okay yeah well. Couples are great example. That actually because you have the husband. You have the wife or spouse spouse as direct as possible if you talk to one there one thing you talked to the other there. Nothing but when they're together they're absolutely a third thing yes well and then I wouldn't say to third thank but that's mine personal belief. I would say it's still them in a different setting and if you say that's the third thing that that might be how you would describe it. I would always say hey the behavior when you meet somebody else with a different behavior that has an effect and that back in full well you you could call that entity or energy. I call it a third identity though because both of them are expressing more of in subsuming some of their own individual identity to create a third interaction. And I think I would call it the effect that the the behavior has on the interaction with them. Because if if you have the same style person might be that. It's the same effect but anyway this this is like semantics not story. I don't mean to make you feel comfortable with something that you don't okay. I I like to learn. I like to experiment and learn from experts like you. Well it's I think it's always a perception how people see this and I always try to make it as maybe simple. Oh now they're talking to each other. What's going on because if let me let me rephrase if you say that one people have an interaction with each other. It's never the same so even the spouses you're referring to if it's in the morning then they have a different direction than maybe a at the end of the day when they're really tired or something and that is intriguing to me like what costs that different behavior will the conflict in a team or something because what people sometimes do his odes that person and when you put those two persons together this happens and I and I was trying to say okay. This is what we observe. We see this well energy or this. This behavior going. Why did this happen and especially in teams when they're not really working together? Sometimes people say oh those people. They just can't work together. You just shouldn't put them together in this team. But then I'm always intrigued. But what is it that they can't work together and if you can work on that behavior which is possible than they're still the same people but they adapt to the situation. Sometimes the person you have the strongest conflicts with you can become extremely close to because the conflict may be you both feel very strongly in their similarities there. But there's also the conflict could be that. The person reminds you of a bully you had in fourth grade and it has nothing to do with anything is just I. Don't I don't like gingers from Tracy thing like that like oh they've got depth particular looker. Or whatever you have this or their first name I knew somebody I knew. A bill and bill was mean to me and I don't like bills. It's weird not very weird and very dangerous off dangers. Maybe that's not that we're but but concerning Because luckily you are aware a lot of people luckily are wear like this might be my projection with this wisely. My boss talking but sadly in a way you could say it's nice because I have a lot of business. Sadly sadly people don't know this all the time and when you start analyzing working with a team all of a sudden the like oops this. This is nothing to do with you. This has to do with my projection. This has to do with my past. Yeah so that's that's sad. So how would you approach that? Would you try to discover and then maybe reframe the situation as they're talking to each other you mean when people are in Conflict Yes oh Yes and no depends on the situation. And I'm not the mediator. Something they they hire me full behavioral advice and so depends on the situation but usually it's just talking and then they say all the things they want to say to this person that they haven't set in a while making say that to me And the other person gets to do the same and funny room when they're doing now in the beginning this interest actually different energy third appropriate. This is I'm I'm I when you do this. It's I would say fantastic and worrying at the same time because what they say sometimes they literally say the same thing and actually they agree on something but they've never said it to each other because there's a bad vibes you ever asked him. What was the other person? Say about them about this. I'm just curious because I've always found to be fascinating when you say what would bill say you. Think of such and such suburbs of dead on yet and and that helps because if if you allow them to vent which this is what. I see businesses the venting just saying what needs to be set in an early stage because if you wait too long and the conflict goes up if you allow yourself but also other people to to fend on. Hey what how do you see me? Or what is what do you think is wrong with this project or what did I. What is my mistake? Actually business while not business pros but the interaction improves on then. Unification and the business improved in these kinds of situations. People are happy sometimes at one of not they become best friends but as you described before it it is possible that at all of a sudden they start understanding each other like. Oh I didn't know. Oh thank you the nice stop in a better way. Yeah so it's interesting helps at least build a potential respect if not a friendship just respect like okay. Your Life Experience to this point is a and mine is be. I can understand though if I lived in a that. I might feel the same way and that's a lot of it right. There's just a whole oh okay. Yeah and what we tried to do is make them describe the behavior. Very specific at the Yes let me start on. Working with teams He said laughing was that slightly. We do I feel well. Let let me do a general example. I if if this because L. system very specific conflict but when you are working together and somebody says I don't like this person that doesn't look because nobody knows why and could be because the names bill as you said so we try to analyze what it is so. It's a bit like scrutinize. Why he doesn't like the cousin and let's say it's as simple as the name. Okay then you're done but sometimes it can be radi specific things like. Yeah he comes. I had this one day that somebody came like every morning posting came into the row which was an open sir and in the Netherlands. Kind of normal to have open offices that everybody works together and dispersant came in always five or ten minutes nater than actually should be and then he was all like bombastic. Hi everybody and putting his stuff down and kind of being noisy and loud and it started with a little irritation on the other person. I was talking to up to the point where she couldn't stand him anymore. Like aw he's so annoying and he makes his noise all the time and he's still out. I hate it and I asked her. Did you ever tell him? Did you ever address that? He so loud to you and noisy and she also didn't like that he wasn't on time all those kinds of things like the behavior. Did you ever tell him? No you should know that exactly this to me is so surprising all the time like how possibly can somebody a debt to your comfort level. If they know what makes you feel less comfortable so what we did in this case so okay tell you sit together or I think we did it in a session with everybody at that point because it was his whole team and then we said just tell each other and not in a Dutch long way like you are doing it wrong. Constructive you know very constructive and describing the behavior and the effect because if you say you're coming out you are laid that's not effective but if you say. I'm so distracted. I'm starting my work nine that I open my email working already and then you coming in pretty loud. You're distracting me and then I'm all those kinds of things and then I cannot working like well. I thought it was fun. You know. And then he didn't know what he was doing or what he was causing of. That would be an example but sure if you came into Munis prior then hit. Probably be fine also. Yeah that was. That was another thing that needed to be addressed. Kyi You why you ten minutes late and This is the this was interesting as well like our allowance in a business in an office. Like if you're ten minutes nate If somebody this was funny funny I shouldn't say money. Let me rephrase that it was interesting to find out why he was late and he never told anybody he had to drop off his children and but he never said it so when everybody knew they were fine with him being ten minutes nate and he always worked ten flavor so it wasn't the fact that it was the ten minutes it was that he didn't tell others so honest. I'm guessing that's a lot of your job. Right is to just dig that one. Step deeper to help explain anomalies. Yeah that might be nice. Oh summary of my job. I think yeah. I'm not always working with conflict. Usually seems like one on one coaching. That people just want to get something across. It doesn't work so but then also APP to analyze wise looking. What are you doing? What are you not doing for like a presentation or something? You might work with somebody to I. Don't know put forth a proposal to their CEO. That could be a proposal. Could fe presentation could be actually wanting a new project or working on a project within the team where you feel kind of intimidated and you want to stand out more all the various things actually on everything of course but I'm coaching a doctor. Now in these in these wells we say stressful times and this is. This is fantastic to help her out. Because she's stressed She just wants to say okay. How can I deal with the stress? Which is We can talk about like okay. Why'd you strip also make it very behavioral is? What can I do? What's the action I can take? That's what I try to always make it into an action do something can you do well? That's huge to doctors. There's been a some studies and I don't remember where I heard. It was glad well or somebody like that but they would just record the tone of doctors voice and people could predict by listening to the tape. Which doctor is going to be sued for malpractice? So the idea of working communication with somebody like yourself for a doctor. This is more than just getting on day to day. It could mean an entire career is there are some people who the doctor could do wrong. And they don't feel good or whatever and they want to see the doctor for malpractice and then there could be another doctor who's completely in error and people will never sue them. Because there's no way that Dr could have ever done that to them. Yeah that's not just what doctors it's it's with. I would say every business you see it. In banks season politics actually. There was one example. That was really shocking to me. I must say It also I felt very very grateful that I get to do to. Sometimes I work with actors so people can Practice what we're trying to teach them and we stimulated a position with doctor on a patient and this doctor said Yeah you know. I don't want to ask these questions. Sometimes because if they don't tell me what's going on while then they no tell me if I just have to ask all the time. Well I'm not that. What did you say I'm not? An interview. Are Okay so we but he wanted to learn so he wanted to learn more on asking questions so we did this simulation and he was. He was trying to do this now when we work with actors. It's all natural so it's not a pre written Play with something. It's just in the here now. Yes you you could say Improv. And then really reacting in the in the session on the behavior of the doctor in this case and what happened was so the doctor was asking questions and the actor was telling him what was going on and so end of story and then something happened. The doctor said I cannot believe this and we said what his cannot believe this just by asking three more questions than I do. Normally I have the whole story now. I cannot believe I didn't do this before I was lazy. Like my God. Seen the light because we were so happy industry. Oh No no no I cannot keep a straight face I try to. I try but I also think sometimes it's good to show people that I said. Wow I said that's fantastic but I also said this is confronting because what if he wouldn't have done this and he's in he was. He was shocked himself. Like wow just three questions. I was lazy and Being Dutch. Sometimes say Dutch doctor the doctor. Yeah Yeah sorry to pick on now now culturally that way. I know I have a friend hunter. Mott'S WHO's Dutch and he's spoken long deep about in. It's a fact that if you guys don't point out problems your whole country goes underwater. You could say that but I think to be honest it helps people is why I also teach this in England and this this reluctancy sometimes to give feedback in the in the way that I do but when you help people I'm saying that it might be helpful to do. It might be helpful to well confront people sometimes in a nice way to in your face but but and they see the effect then all of a sudden they pick up on it and say. Oh this is actually helpful to give somebody feedback instead of. Let's not status or even abroad. It's it is a more and more accepted. I would say yeah. We'll depends on where you are too. I mean you work with Americans. I imagine time-to-time in America somebody from New York which happens to be Dutch. Founded marry gates. You Brand New Amsterdam. Yeah they love it. Yeah it's really people who are little southern might spin little sugar with it. Yeah and but they also like it. This is the thing nobody likes feedback. Even the Netherlands. Like no no you want to do well. These most people that you want to. You want to know that you're doing good job on the people like you. And so feedback is the sometimes. It's difficult to do this. Because it feels like an attack. And then people go as freeze mode or they like attacking the other person But if you can do this the right way and you say what the effect is and that. It might be helpful if they change then. It's less of a problem because then it doesn't like an attack but I think nobody likes feedback. If it's doing this now. That was funny. No sorry sorry. Sorry were no. That's fine it's funny because what you're saying it's almost I can. You can use an additive to make it better like what you can do what you're doing now and if you did this is well that'd be really powerful and that's kind of not attacking. It's like saying how do or if you're doing do what you're doing now. Maybe a little less of this and a little more of that. Yeah but here. This is where we go into detail when you say well you know the pie tone of your voice. People pick up on that and they say oh my God he needs something else and when you say like Oh this is so great but we already here field of but coming. This awful gates everything that was said prior. Yeah exactly and what I think is really powerful. If you've it's just if you can describe something and you say what the effect is on you. Then there's still a choice for this person. I mean I might. For instance with my hands I do. This lot. Might be very annoying to people so if they say all and when you took in you doing all of that with your hands that distracts me because I'm looking at your hands all the time then I can say oh. I need to know this. I need to remember that. This could be distracting for people. And then I kind of have a choice I do. I want to stop that or maybe do it less so that it might not be distracting or I could say you know what I'm Mike. Not because it doesn't I don't want to that so there's still this choice that somebody has if you address the feedback new dress. The effected has saw. Yeah I think what you said earlier. It's it's it's also you have choices. You don't have to do it. We have to be very careful. That it's not like fake feedback is really good. She could also as. Is there any feedback that you would like to ask? That's okay at ask you questions like it's their feedback that you remember yourself. That was something like. Oh No somebody gave you. I hate being put on the spot like there because I never remember anything. I've terrible memory. I would say happens all the time and overtime. I'm getting old enough to where I just don't care I would rather learn. You know my image and everything used to be important to me now. I'm at the point where it's like correct me. I don't good. I would much rather know what I'm doing wrong and I told you before the interview. I love being proven wrong. I'm stretched A. Why would you say wrong because this is always intriguing to me is right and what is wrong because I look precision? Lucar scientific know just even in language. I get excited. When I can find the very specific word that describes that action to the T-. There's no wiggle room because in English. There're a lot of words that are generally true as an eros flying on a path. It's true in that direction but because it's flying in that direction doesn't mean it's a bullseye so precision language precision and actions. I find that really really really interesting but it is also uncomfortable and we get into the ten thousand hour rule which is glad well put it out was actually Anders Eriksson and Gladwin messed it up but it is the idea of not practicing making perfect but perfect practice makes perfect does make sense. Yeah actually I. I tweeted today. That's IM- wealth it. Such thing as perfection no but there is the argument. That perfect is the enemy of done. Perfect is the enemy of done. Yeah but you can keep improving and refining. I think when you say you practicing you practice that the journey that you can never achieve perfection but you can become like accident or an expert at something and then you still have to learn. I mean this. It's so but it's not just practicing exactly concerted effort to practice very specifically and and it's uncomfortable. It's not it's not joyful and I'll use like a tiger woods golf but I can recognize. He doesn't just go out like a weekend warrior. Just go smack smack smack at the balls every stroke he takes. He's fully concentrating on doing exact manner and he does it over over and over. And that's essentially believe it or not kind of what I'm trying to do with interviews. Okay so how? How is this going so far? This is perfect up. Well I think I like the the quote from Muhammad Anyway. He says that I hated every minute of practice. But when he's doing it then you need to prepare for those kind of things and I think every time you do something you you can learn from. It's as you said like you like to learn and I think that I always love it when people want to know and I hope that I do that myself because I think there's always room for improvement and when you see this people that I that I coach teach. Sometimes they're in this level in a business where they don't get feedback anymore and nobody tells them anything or nobody tells them they're wrong as you would say or they don't give them any feedback because they're afraid of possible consequences so than yea. I can say something about that behavior. So that's very nice. Yeah wrong can be a loaded term. Sure I don't mind it though because I do think there's there's wrong I guess again. We're getting to semantics here. We yeah there's incorrect which is probably more appropriate because wrong is doing something to someone. Let's say that it's just malicious or terrible. That would be wrong. Yeah I think direct or ineffective for what you want sure because that specific behavior that somebody says Oh this is wrong. Might be fantastic on a different situation. So if you think about science okay there might be like black and white ideas and proven right and wrong but when it comes to communication and humans. I don't know if there's a right or wrong. Could you could talk about ethics as you say led mutations more of an art than a science yes. I love science there. Yeah it is an art. It's kind of like the difference between and baking. Okay I would say that a communications more on the cooking side than baking because baking you have to have measurements with cakes. GonNa fall much more scientific but with cooking if you throw in a little too much salt you can always add some sugar and in your communication. I'm sure you would agree that. Oh maybe I said that a little wrong. We're starting to go off the rails but I could pull it back slightly or or maybe a little bit more. Something else to help mitigate but it's all additive if I put too much salt and dish I can't just pull it out. Yeah Yeah but then what I what I like about. This metaphor is that you have to be allowed US in new. Because if you're cooking some some people just do something or Baking and cooking. They just do something. But what you're describing is somebody who's alert and aware like oops. I'm going off the rail here. And if you have that lettuce nece then you're already so so much further than a lot of people. I would say the note doesn't mean you specifically but do of such you didn't want to be put on the spot so I'm trying to drink from that. Okay now what I mean is like a lot of people. Just do something and then when it's done and somebody else. Evaluates they evaluate themselves like Oh yeah you know? I couldn't have done it. Any could've have done anything else. It's just the way it is or this is just who I am yet. Not a phrase dead. I believe in you know okay. What do you have to watch for in yourself? Me a yes and especially because you can fall into the trap of. You're the expert. Yeah so now. You're coming with authority. I'm a dummy I could change back and forth because I'm not an expert so I can come up with my. You know my goofy theory from the side or anything I want and I can shift on it but I also know I have no real authority and no expertise and I shouldn't be taken seriously you on the other hand. Now you're kind of a loaded weapon. So how do you? What do you have to watch out for well? I sorry being Dutch. Probably I'M GONNA I'm GonNa say something about what you just said because that good. That's not true that because you have spoken to so many people and you pick up on things so that's not true. You're not a dummy that's kind of a could be. I wouldn't say that because that's never true people. Pick up on everything and So having said that I think that what I've changed in the years. I I think that was this point where I wanted to help people. In a way that I became a bit annoying like when somebody said I'm having trouble at work. And then they were saying the situation to explaining. Oh my managers doing this and this and this and I kind of jumped in with giving advice you know saying oh I see you doing this and that or I hear you. I think this behavior three masculine. By the way that is known as a masculine trait. You know the whole White. Men and women can't communicate. I'M BEING SERIOUS. The whole thing of don't fix my problem. Just listen I was. I still have the idea of fixing problems so when I see things maybe maybe I'm a mess kid but I think that was alright. It's alright I will. I will ignore that because sometimes they say that makes it different behavior but it could be a man thing. Well actually. I think that is Maybe that is my problem when it when it's about men and women. I'm like all here we go here. We go that that is that is something that is in my line of business. A lot of male trou- coaches enright isn't always kind of things. And for instance. I Love Amy Cutty. Because she's done so much for the business in showing that that that women are also powerful that they can also have the trades that you might describe as masculine but anyway we're off track here. I'm going to show you a video later. Called it's not about the nail. It's not about the nail. It is a brilliant video that describes that a whole behavior of communication and it is a male female so like it's a weird juxtaposition but essentially it's a couple and Male and female and the female has a nail coming out of her head right on the. There's a nail there and she's like I'm just my head hurts so often. I can't concentrate if I go to lay down and the guy like you. Just it's not about the nail and that she goes on. I think it's not about and okay. It is very very hilarious. And then she goes. She's putting a sweater on and he's like what it's not about the Nail Outta send it to you and I having trouble with with a picturing. This'll sometimes it's not about the nail because then you have to think a. Why did the nail get there and then we have to figure out why that was sure? Sure yeah okay. So you're to deal house to disaster. Go let me you asked a question. I would like to go back to. The question was what I should look out for and I think sometimes I am a change that but Trying to help people when they didn't say hey. Could you help me out? That was that that's not that wasn't my best feature and sometimes also being i. I hope I'm a good listener. But sometimes I want to fix things and I like oh I know the answer or or yes. This is what it could do. And in the end when what I've learned if I if I just call myself down That might also be something. I need to look out for that. I'm not too enthusiastic Calm sometime but Then then people come. They asked the question themselves. Like hey what would you do or could you help me out? And I'm I'm very honored when they do that so they called me up for the say manager that I've been coaching and then in four years later they say again. Hey I've got the situation now and I need your help again so That's fantastic reading like that. What's good do you have ways that you might nudge them to coming around your instead of trying to correct or situation. It's really oh wait. Were you genuinely listen? Yes I'm exaggerating. So but were you. Listen but you kind of just leave bread crumbs to where. If they're paying attention they can come back and ask you but not to do anything. You'd like to ask them. A couple open ended questions but I think to be honest. I'm I'M A I not greater from the bread crumbs all direct in a way. I wasn't the desire if you might have acquired that skill tip so instead of being direct you if I could. Yeah I could do that. That is possible but I'm I'm sorry. I think I misunderstood the question now. I was wondering because you said that you felt like you had a tendency to do that. And you don't do it as much so I didn't know if maybe you had other methods to where you would do bread crumbs or something that which show that you're open to help them but you're not trying to force anything on them. Yeah I think I just listen and awesome questions and sometimes literally say. Do you need help with that or is there anything I can do? Votes kind of direct. Still Yeah those good though because they'd be like no yeah it it helps them or they or they say well. I need to think about it. could be a Anytime if you need help on here so but sometimes just like what we talked about before sometimes if people event that is already helpful so but sometimes he see things that what I what I use. A lot is the helicopter technique. And that's that's I'm writing an article about that. That's what that's going to be that It's the Bausch US helicopter technique in situation as a metaphor. What you can do. So I'll say something I on a situation and then I'll try to explain helicopter technique with you but what you see sometimes is that people are so in a situation that they don't know what to do anymore and what I tried to do. With my line of work is to help them get an overview and an icon. Who Does it so I can? Helicopter Method Metaphor. Means that you can do so many things you can. You can fly. You can go into detail. You can even go backwards. You know the metaphors helicopter can do a lot of things. So that's really helpful but sometimes when you are in the session. You're in the situation as a manager in a conflict. You cannot do that anymore and then I I can there be that to help you out. And that's the technique. I use a lot of people to worry about the term helicopter out. Oh here we go. Semantic begun cultural thing. Maybe have you ever heard of helicopter? Parenting no I haven't. It's a very distinctly American thing and it's parents who are overprotective of their children. It's called the helicopter snowplow but they hover over their children all the time and make sure nothing ever goes wrong etc etc and it seen as kind of a negative if you will snow plows a variant where the parent will just clear. Anything other child's pass the child to deal. I know that with a broom. Like what is it cold and snow plow down the road? I just letting you know that because it might be confusing term. Yes thank you maybe is my problem. Anyway I'm hovering too much on the on people but Yeah that's so that's a good thing to know tastic. Where can people find out more on me? Do Your Business. Well I'm linked in and they can look at behavior company website on twitter So all those kind of things. You're the behavior with the you're right because that's just that whipping the British way of writing. It's like behavior dot EU dot. Edu because we're in Europe fantastic. Thank you so much thank you. Thank you for the opportunity and talk to you soon. I hope you enjoyed an. I think she is fantastic and has a lot to learn and no. I'm not going to say her full name again because that would be beyond my capabilities and before we leave. I wanted to give a little bit of a shoutout to a friend of mine. Brett Allen who is running a virtual conference on May twenty third where I will be speaking along with some other podcasters and previous guests. You know like Tyson Franklin pete a Chase Piccolo Larry Roberts Joe Pardo and more. That's off the top of my head. It's GonNa be great lot of Fun People. It's all about doing and guesting and how to book guests. Oh and Randall Kenneth. Jones can't forget him. It'll be a lot of fun. I will be posting about it on my social media you can also follow. Brett Alan. That's A. L. L. A. N. On the socials he runs the open MIC podcast. Look him up and I also will be promoting as time gets closer. Thanks again so much for listening.

Netherlands United States Larry Roberts Joe Pardo Jack Barsky FBI youtube Darren Brown CIA Henrik sexiness Eric Hunley Erica Monte Navarro Thomas Becora Rob Andrew Rica KGB Marta Sweden twitter
287: How to Stop Taking Feedback So Personally | Feedback Friday

The Jordan Harbinger Show

55:24 min | 10 months ago

287: How to Stop Taking Feedback So Personally | Feedback Friday

"Welcome to feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. I'm here with producer Jason to Filipo on the Jordan Harbinger Show decode the stories. Secrets skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you this week. We had Jack Barsky. This is a two parter. He's a KGB's by who came to America to blend in as an American he got a job he got a family and he was only caught years After the fall of communism this is one of my favorite episodes of all time. It's from the vault. This is just amazing. I couldn't believe the stories this guy had and you will not regret listening to it is even if you think you've heard everything. This is just absolutely spectacular. I also write every so often on the blog. The latest article is five signs yourself helping the wrong way. It's very apropos. Given how much self-help is taken over people's lives. People aren't enjoying the process. They're struggling to apply stuff to their own lives. And frankly making everyone around on them including themselves miserable in the process. That's at Jordan harbinger dot com slash articles. So make sure you've had a look and a listen to everything we created for you this week. Of course our primary hi. Mary mission here on the Jordan. Harbinger show is to pass along our guests in our own experiences and insights along to us so the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you. And that's what we're we're GONNA do today. And every Friday here on feedback Friday. I WANNA place one brick just one in the structure that makes your life. And that's what this podcast is really about. You can reach reach us. Friday at Jordan Harbinger Dot Com. And you know it's occurred to me. A lot of people have asked us. Hey what are we you know. DAX Shepard from armchair expert. He calls his audience. Cherries Lady Gaga has the little monsters. What are we and I realized I have no idea? And this is not where my creativity lies so if you have an idea of what you as an audience should be called. Awed you know the Harbinger family type. Moniker I'm all ears. Shoot me a note Jordan at Jordan Harbinger Dot Com. Ideally it's creative and not super creepy or weird. But but you know I'll leave that judgment up to you. I'm all ears on this and I would love to finally after thirteen years of doing this. Show find something that actually makes sense. All right we've got some fun ones and some doozy's as per use Jason. What's the first thing out of the MAILBAG PAY TRIPLE J? I just learned what my starting salary will be for the job. I'll be starting after I graduate. I'm super super excited. Isn't it was significantly more than I was expecting in because this will be my first full time job. Is it a faux pas to tell my parents what my salary will be. I don't see any reason reason not to tell them but I know you'll have more wisdom about this than I do. Also who should and shouldn't I tell are there any general guidelines to follow or is it just a case by in case of deal. Thanks signed new to the workforce. Well your parents in theory should be happy for you but it depends if they're going to use this is info to make your life easier or more difficult in other words if they're going to congratulate you pat you on the back then great but if they're going to Blab to the entire family piss off all your siblings cousins and extended attended family and then courage random people to bug you for money I would keep it to yourself. You could go horribly wrong. Also I would say Be Cognizant of jealousy factor. Ter- when I got my first high paying job I told my dad and he was mad at me for probably three years because he was making a third of what I was making and was just very grumpy about it anytime time. I would mention my job. So you WanNa be tactful about that. Your Dad was mad at you. My Dad he was busted his ass sixty hours a week and then I get this cush job at a movie studio radio and he was just like so happens. I wouldn't have expected that from a parent but I guess it depends on the parent right. Yeah my mom. Of course this is really happy. My Dad was really surprised but my dad was a little bit annoyed but he was also more like happily surprised. He's a great that you can pay back your student loans. That kind of thing I would. I'd say as for telling other people do not. There's no advantage that I can see to sharing your salary with people who are not your parents and the as we just heard maybe not even them you can tell some friends and they may be happy for you or more likely. They're going to be a mix of happy and jealous they might accidentally or deliberately spread the INFO. And then you've got to deal with that you know you tell some other people who work in similar jobs thinking they're getting paid the same as you and you find out that they're underpaid they're gunning for your job or they wanna sabotage you or you find. Find out that you're underpaid and now you're pissed off when you were happy before and there's nothing you can do about it because it's too early to negotiate. It's great to be proud of yourself and you should be. You should be able to share in your accomplishments with others. Enjoy that validation. But you know you should also make sure. You're not dependent on the wrong kinds of validation in life in general or you're GONNA run into problems congrats on the job. You've graduated to adulthood you're kicking but now realize that getting your foot in the door. Getting the job is just the beginning. Go earn that big salary bump and be the best at what you do. Enjoy the satisfaction of a rewarding career. You've earned it but you have to keep earning it every single day. Do not forget that like if it makes any difference. I'm proud of you for as long as I've known you so the last thirty eight seconds or so. I just knew there was something very special about you. All right. What's next? Hi Jordan and Jason. I'm one of two women in in my program at work. I rarely ever see the other woman in have only had one or two conversations with her because she works in a different office also she works part time because of this. We're both used to being the only woman around. I went up to her office a few days ago. Everyone was in the common area chatting including her. There was a noticeable tension in the room between us when I entered third one of my male co workers even mentioned something to me about it later my female coworker and I have friendships with all of our male co workers but just not with each other. Most people people from my office don't know very well because she does finances and doesn't interact with us day to day. I have nothing against her and thinks she's a really cool person. But that interaction really threw me off. I'd coincidentally listen to your episode with Sarah Hill where she talks about female hormones causing sub-conscious competition between women. When I encounter these types of situations in the future feature especially in a professional setting what can I do to defuse the situation and for the men out there? What can they do when they observe this type of tension in a group? Thanks keeping the peace. I always liked to get ahead of problems. And this is even more important in the workplace whenever there's tension in a group it's always best to address if these things privately when you try to address things in a group setting there will always be too much emotion ego and other moving parts involved in the mix so remove those those complications and handle this thing in private. The best way is to go to the other woman's office so that there's no time constraint. If you catch her in the elevator something it's going to be harder. There's there's a time constraint you might get cut off somebody else steps in the elevator. I'd go to her office and mentioned that you haven't really had a good chance to get to know her. But you'd like to especially since there are so few women women in the office you can even add that you've heard good things about her from co workers and that you're looking forward to connecting a bit better because of that this helps take any suspicion as your intent out of the way I mean maybe not any suspicion but it will certainly go a long way. It almost sounds like this is a territorial thing. And I've heard this before and it's best to nip this in the bud for the sake of the whole office. I don't know about you Jason. But there's many times in my life where I'm like. ooh This person's doing this and look at that guy and then I'll talk to them for five seconds. I'm like he's Great. What was my problem? I have no idea weird insecurity on my part or like weird little eyebrow flick that I got from him that I read into for no reason and good thing. I talked to him because he's awesome. Yeah like that happens to me all the time. Yeah the conflict is all in your head it just soon as you actually communicate with somebody just all goes away. Yeah and I'm not saying this is all in in your head keeping the peace but I think that it's very possible their stuff going on between you two. Maybe she heard. Oh yeah keeping the peace. She's a real governor and she's a great well screw her I'm used to being the only woman in the office. I like that position and then she talks to you for ten minutes and she's like oh she's really cool. I don't know what I was worried about. I would ignore any awkwardness about the earlier interaction. Unless it was just really really obvious to everyone even then I just don't see any benefit to highlighting awkwardness. It's not helpful to anyone here. It might come across as you blaming her for the awkwardness or labeling yourself. As awkward in a way that's unfair and not constructive to the situation for men for the guys they can mind their own frigging business in the workplace. Getting in the middle of other people's conflicts is career suicide or just asking for trouble at the very least especially if something is emotionally Komo debated which could be a conflict between men or women just to be clear here so the guys should not do anything here. They shouldn't try to help and solve the issue. They shouldn't meddle or mix with it at at all. That's a no win for everyone. I'm trying to think of a scenario in which you and the other woman in the office are having an issue in a guy can do anything. That just doesn't blow up in his is face or make it worse for everyone. I can't think of a scenario in which the guy's like well I like both of you both great and then it makes the territorial thing even worse or oh yeah no she talks talks about you and she says mostly good things what you mean. I mean there's no benefit to having someone else stick their nose in this at all. I can't think of a single reason is and why that would be beneficial handle your own stuff. Don't let the guys get in the middle of this. There's very very few situations in which a bunch of guys in the office are going to be able to help smooth over a problem between two of the only women in the office and I'm struggling to think of what that example might even be. Okay Jason what else we got. Hello Jordan Jason. An Team I. I started a side business as a caterer in a specific niche of the catering sector which is coffee. I still have my full time job as you recommended before heading all in into a side I business and fortunately for me the catering business is starting to pick up a couple of months ago. Someone reached out for pricing which is not public info from a different side of the catering industry and so I gave them my pricing thinking. We may work well together. I found out the following day that they launched their own branch in my niche with my pricing and hand presumably to undercut. Let me but I don't know it's starting to get a lot more competitive in my area and yet another caterer in competition with me reached out for my pricing just this week this time. They aren't being sneaky Niki about it. Because they're catering businesses public. They used to display pricing. Because I've seen their website before and now they've taken it down. How do you respond to competition fishing for pricing thing? Should I be flattered annoyed. I still want to be respectful but don't know how to proceed. Anything helps all the best competitor conflicts. Well you don't have to hide the ball on pricing forever. I'm not saying you have to put it on the website because keeping it under wraps in the beginning allows you to get a chance to get inquiries get calls and then sell to your leads once they call in for pricing. That is going to be where you shine and you out sell your competitors. In fact a lot of times pricing is the reason that people walk in the door but it it should never be the reason that people make vision unless you're selling an absolute commodity and yes coffee. Sounds like a commodity but your job is to make it sound like. It's not or to make it something in in addition to just coffee great service better coffee a better experience. Something like that easier to work with. That's where you're going to outsell. The competition. People are willing to pay. Hey for a superior product and service in most cases. This isn't a bargain basement wedding. You're talking about corporate catering for the most part so the budget is the budget and and if somebody's like you know what I really like working with competitor conflicts there so great. He's such a Nice Guy Getting on the phone or getting a quick email. That's going to be a great way to get the dialogue going and you can set yourself apart in that way as for the competition fishing for pricing. Let him do it. I suppose it's flattering because you're on their radar and I would would use the opportunity to see if you're able to work with them on these things. In fact when they reach out you can call it out. Hey I know you're potentially reaching out to see my pricing and see if you you can do better in house but I would love to work with you and here's why we have superior coffee. We have trained staff. Who can handle it for you? This of your staff to handle the food it also means we can make sure. The coffee is always fresh in top grade because of my connections to the suppliers. Also you don't have to have your insurance for hot beverages which adds I don't know hundreds of dollars in cost to your company cheer here at Cetera et Cetera. You can find the reason that it's good for them to work with you. And if there's no reason why another caterer should work with you then you need to rethink your business model because if all you offer as a part of service but there's no benefit for them having you be a part of their business you've got to figure out why that is of course competitors might not care they might try to get into your business and that's fine. I've had people doing that a ton when I was in the coaching and consulting business and many of these competitors became colleagues or ended up referring leads to us once they realize they didn't want to be in my business at all and now that I'm out of coaching and consulting almost entirely not completely I refer leads to other people all all of the time. Treat your competitors inquiries almost like you treat your sales leads. They might not be hiring you but then again they might be these are actually as important or potentially actually even more important than regular sales lead because they may work with you a hundred times instead of just once or twice to nurture those relationships accordingly. You can't be cagey it's not gonNA work. It's not gonNA last because eventually they're going to get your pricing. It's not a trade secret you have to give it to anybody who wants to buy your services so treat it as such and make. I'm sure that you're a gem to work with whether they're competing with you or not and I know what you're thinking. What if they undercut me? I get that that's a legit concern. But they were eventually going to get your pricing anyway so if you're only competing on price you've already lost same with them. If they think coming in fifty dollars less is going to cinch the business they're going to we pretty surprised when you're offering superior product superior service and you're getting hired over and over by the same companies that hire them to do the food. It's not really gonNA work now. They might might want to be a one stop shop so that they're easier to work with with companies right if oh we need coffee and food great. We offer that they may not want to do it in house and you you can offer them a better deal if they bring you on each of their engagements as usual your best bet is to make sure your competition is your greatest source of leads and revenue. You the smartest competitor's will do the same with you and if you find a couple of relationships that were mutually beneficial for everybody involved you guys can take over the whole business S. and you can work together seamlessly and you will cut out other competition in other areas. It's really beneficial to you and to everybody else to get along and work together other great in this space you're always going to work with your competitors more than you're going to work with your clients almost in every case. Are you going to work with somebody. Who's sort of competitor? More often than you're going to work with one or two of your clients. It's almost certain so the best thing to do is get along great with them and be as easy to work with with them as you would be to any one of your clients. This is feedback Friday. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by I host gator. People always ask us how many business cards printed before their next big networking event and we tell them the same thing. Every time business cards may have been a state of the art way to connect in nineteen eighteen fifty seven. But you know what's truly timeless here in two thousand nineteen having your own website. I'm not talking about facebook. 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Let's hear some more of your questions here on feedback Friday. All right. What's next? Hey Triple J. I'd consider myself pretty social. I do a pretty good job. Listening to and communicating with people. My network is considerably reliable as you put it. I dig the well long before I get thirsty. People people know me as somebody they can reach out to help on short notice and likewise I have many people I can rely on to help with a variety of projects and issues at little to no notice. I'm frequently invited to social events. My wife notices the pulse of a party change when I show up. I've had comments before about the party turning up when I show up. I don't mean for this to sound bragging rather to illustrate my confusion. Something I've struggled with is having friends that I can count on as just hang out buddies. Sometimes I just want to have a few drinks or a meal with some friends and just relax the same people I can call on in a moment's notice always seemed to be busy whenever I just want to hang out and catch up contacts of mine often come to me whenever they need somebody somebody to listen or they need that person to hang out with them. But I really don't have that reciprocity. I just can't understand why they would give up so much time and energy to help with other issues But seem less willing to just chill. I just don't understand why I may repel people in terms of casual friendships. Thanks for your time. The friendless social butterfly. It's really hard to diagnose this without more of an idea of your personality or what the other people around you are like there could be a few things going on here one. You're seen seen as competent and people need your help. But they don't feel as comfortable around you. This could be for a variety of reasons but it's not easy for us to diagnose that here without more information listen to the people around. You are selfish. They want your help but they have no interest in you or anyone else when there's nothing for them and the world has a ton of these people so that that shouldn't be a surprise I'm leaning towards the latter. Most people are thinking of themselves. They're not simply intimidated by the other person's lifestyle. No offense intended here but that almost sounds like what parents say to their kids when somebody is bullied. Oh they're just jealous because you're so smart occasionally it's true but usually it's just because the other kids are fricken. Insecure a holes will bully the anyone that they feel like bullying even their own friends. In this case it's more adding it's more like I don't need him right now so there's no point in going out for a bite to eat because I'm watching Netflix. I don't really care to make a friendship here. The key in this case isn't to try and change other people or figure out what you're doing wrong necessarily unless you really can pinpoint something. The way they interact is not going to change. I would look at what you can change. But I wouldn't harp on it because the answer's probably nothing. The key is to keep filtering people until you find people people that value relationships and understand that things aren't always about what's convenient for them in the moment and that's kind of tricky. It's weird explaining this to full grown adults but one reason one of many reasons why it's hard to make friends as an adult is because a lot of people are just really selfish and they're only looking at themselves and it's an epidemic EMIKO society that I won't go on a rant about but a lot of folks are not looking to maintain relationships. They're not givers. They're takers. And that's why filtering in givers dozen people who really care about others is tough because it's one and one hundred and when you do find friends as an adult that's why it's more important than ever to actually maintain those relationships relationships and keep them close because as we get older people will find any excuse to sort of retreat back into their shell and go about their routine and I find it even now. I've had a kid. Did I married and people are like. Oh let's hang out and it's all I can do to be like what I got enough friends by. You know I really have to actively go it. Say yes I have to go. Yeah I'll go on on that trip. Why not it's a time away from work? It's a risk may not like anyone in this group travelers. I just got back from Bhutan. I only knew one or two people that were going and it was phenomenal. Nominal and I've got a bunch of new friends now really interested in their lives and what they're doing in their business and it was just a blast but yeah it's hard to fly across the world take a week you've got your life. I'm not saying you have to do that but I am saying. It's a matter of filtering in ripe. curation becomes even more important as you get older because we have less time because because we have less discretionary time when I was a kid I'd watch anything that came on TV. Now I make an hour or two a night and I watch things that I've been planning to watch for weeks weeks. It's the same with friends you know you've got a day off. You're not going to walk down your Dorm Room Hall and see WHO's around. You're going to call somebody that you haven't seen in forever and make dinner plans it. It becomes more difficult as your time gets more scarce. And you have to treat it as such and not beat yourself up when some schmuck decides to treat you like an option when you're treating them like a priority already. You have to make sure that you're filtering in the right people who actually give a crap about your relationship so keep trying keep filtering. It's a process but it's one that is very worthwhile earth while in my experience and people who stick through this and do a good job with it over time they have very rewarding social lives and very rewarding friendships and connections that lasts for their whole life and that as we now know keeps you happy healthy and even helps you live longer. So it's a worthy pursuit. All right. What's next Hello Jordan team? We're a small team in pretty self sufficient with getting things done ourselves over. The past. Six months are manager. Hasn't been in the office a lot when he's here he only comes in mid-day for maybe about four hours on average but then we'll leave for the day. Our team has the perks of being able to work from home. Sometimes in just hours within reason as long as we have coverage for the customers. We support my manager's recent trend of not being around that much definitely seems to impact the team. Now it's affecting team morale and behavior and for those of us who are hard workers is really putting a strain on us another senior team member and myself have mentioned this to him a few times and he'll reply that he knows things need to change and make other similar comments and while it may change for a few days things go back to the same behavior. We've seen over the past six months. What suggestions do you have for a boss who isn't present present to really lead his team? I like the work I do. But it's hard when you don't have a leader steering the ship as he was hired to do sincerely Bosman Gone Awol. All this certainly sounds annoying. You've got your team working hard it's self sufficient and you've got a boss who's taking that as an opportunity to not do his job and not make any attempt to lead the group at all. Were actually asking the wrong question here. You're asking what suggestions do I have for a boss who isn't present. And how can he lead his team but remember he's not asking this so he doesn't Friggin Care Right. He is not involved in this at all. The answer to that question is he can't lead and he doesn't want to lead he wants to be distracted by whatever else is going on whether that's a personal issue outside the company or something else entirely. There are a few steps to take your if you're so inclined and it sounds like you've taken the first step a few times mentioning things to him getting commitment on making changes and he's broken that that that's great though that you tried now since no real behavior change has been made I do the following. I would have a personal conversation with the manager and see if there's something going on outside of work if he's got a kid with a terminal illness figure out a time line and see where everyone can rally to step in and help your manager needs you and doesn't need further complication in his life. If if the answer is that he's been hitting the slopes after work and he wants to night ski every weekday to get the most use out of his lift ticket. Now you've got another situation entirely to document everything from here out if the final warning doesn't seem to register it's time for more drastic action and that goes a little something like this. Start Dark documenting your attempts as a team to get your manager back in play. Have a few CO workers sign off on your attempts and you can document this by email or you can do a google doc or something. Nothing else. If you document this make sure you have the master copy yourself in case you need it for legal reasons later on like maybe your manager deletes it from the company network and inserts blaming you for team dysfunction later on you WanNa make sure you control the document document when he comes into the office. You'RE GONNA WANNA see if he can read your email if it's only higher ups ups in it or HR. That can do it fine. But you don't Wanna be sending email back and forth like hey. Tom came in and our late again. And he can just click and see all your email. That's not going to be good. Ed You'RE GONNA WANNA get a sign off in some other way because you don't want to make yourself a target here document when he comes into the office when he leaves do this every single day and again and make sure co workers sign off on it the reason you want them to sign off on it. Is You want absolutely no possibility of him saying oh he just made all this up last week you want to write it down. Maybe in Pencil or pen in a journal and get other people's signatures on it or have an email coming back like yes. Tom Come in at ten or you can get that other coworkers to help. If they're interested in this. Well you can say. Hey Angela your by the door when Tom Comes in can you shoot me a quick email. Sure that way you've got other people working on this and that way if your manager tries to say oh it's just Bosman Gone Awol. That has a problem with me. We have a personal beef. It's like well. Angela sends an email. When you come in and Thomson's an email when you leave and John has been documenting the whole thing and other people have been signing off that it's accurate you know that's not GonNa look too good for him when he tries to make it? Look like it's just you after a few weeks of this again. Talk to your manager. Don't bring a whole journal of evidence. Just see what the problem is if he's still jerky you guys around go over his head. I'm I'm sure you know how to reach your managers superiors and they'll be very interested in this. It's not just hey this guy keeps coming in late. Yeah we heard something like this. It's like hey he keeps was coming in late. Here's a journal of the last three weeks. Four weeks of his attendance coming in at ten thirty and leaving it three every single day. Be Ready for backlash you know. He's going to turn around and say it's you. That's causing team dysfunction. Look at this jerk. His work is all subpar. It may not hurt to have a backup plan just in case right. If you're thinking look this could really blow up in my face. But I've got another job offer on the table not a bad place to be because your other colleagues they might not want to stick their neck out too much. This might be the only option. They've got if if you've got options you've got power you've got leverage. Once you get the attention of his superiors. They will be compelled to do something in fact. Superiors are gonNA wonder. Hey will. Your performance hasn't gone down. Well there's other people on the team that are doing a really good job this sh- mova managers never showing up. What's the deal? You've got evidence in hand that he's not around. You've got multiple attempts to handle all things in house. which by the way isn't even really your job right? You're not supposed to manage your manager. It's good if you do but this is gonna get their attention. And if it doesn't if this doesn't get your manager's superiors attention hugh are working for an inept organization with systemic management problems. And you should leave anyway so either outcome. Tom Is going to be workable here. It's not an ideal situation. You know you'd love to get some managerial change. But if you can't and the boss's boss don't care you might as well get out now because this is never going to change in the organization your your work unit anyways succeeding in spite of the Organization itself. And you should hell. You should all even find greener pastures. The key here is to document everything down to the minute and make sure that your co workers are on your side. The reason you get them to sign off is because you don't want to drag Angela and Tom into into a room and they go. Oh well I don't know I think maybe one time or something. Maybe we saw it. I'm not comfortable with this. I want to leave if their signatures or their emails are in the document document. They don't have to come in and testify with the manager glaring at them. The evidence is already there so you don't want to rely on them to perform in the moment you want to get their sign in off on a daily basis. You want to document everything down to the minute and make sure that they're on your side. That's how this is done in other words. They're not gonNA pretend they don't know what you're talking about when you go to upper management and then throw you under the bus because it's more comfortable and they can't handle social pressure or whatever the hell happens in the moment there is risk involved here but if it's time for your manager to go and you're the one who leads the charge does so in a way that's fair non-predatory and beneficial to the organization. Now you're demonstrating leadership skills that might make you a successor answer to his position and even if you're not the successor to him you're increasing the performance of the company and that probably won't go unnoticed by management or at least buy your co workers. I best of luck here. I do not envy your position but I will say my inbox is full of stuff like this. So it's no big surprise that happens so often in every type of organization organization all right Jason. What's next hi guys? I'm an electrician up in Canada. I probably haven't been to as many training courses some of your listeners. But I've been in several from electric safety to leadership courses. One thing that strikes me about these courses is how confident teachers are. Do you think people who are extremely confident are drawn to jobs like this or is it the job that brings out the best people. I really look up to people who can go in and command the attention of a room full of people that they don't know thanks sparky well. I think it's a bit of both. I think sometimes those who teach are drawn to teaching and enjoy being in front of a room and I think other times people are thrust into teaching end up becoming comfortable in front of a room. I think some of the people you think are effortlessly commanding. The room are actually faking until they make it. And you'd probably be surprised I. I think they'd be surprised that your impression of them is actually so favorable from the sound of it. You'd be well served building confidence in this area as well. And if I were you I'd start taking public speaking courses or something like toastmasters and get used to being in front of groups it might be nerve racking at first but getting comfortable in front of a group. Group is a skill that most people associate with confidence competence and leadership. Even if. You're not sure when you might need it. It's always great to know you've got this skill in your back pocket doc. It and it's something that can be done over time so going once a week for a couple of hours to the local. Ymca or the learning annex or whatever church something like that can really pay off over the long long-term and frankly in the short term as well as the confidence you've gained spills over into other areas crushing obstacles like this and building competence in areas. That look difficult difficult to you. That can really have cumulative effect on your psychology and it can lead to growth and breakthroughs in other areas that are seemingly unrelated. So if you're admiring doing this skill set and others. I think that's a pretty good sign that you should start building that competency yourself. That's actually one reason. I started learning Chinese. I saw a foreigner guy from in the Netherlands. I think speaking at pretty fluently to somebody in North Korea. I was just blown away and I said wow man. That's really impressive. When did you learn that? He goes look man that was pretty pretty basic. That was not as hard as it seemed and so I said we'll shoot if you say it's not that hard and you're not just being fake modest. I'll give it a go. I'm so glad that I did because now how no skill really seems out of reach for me. Since I'm now learning something that wants actually looked impossible so I highly recommend finding a weak point like this that you admire. You're and attacking it whether it's singing swimming. Speaking running is a good one. I never thought oh I thought I can't run. It's awful. I could never do it and I am no great great runner. I actually don't run anymore but I decided I'm going to run a half marathon trained for it for a while and I ran it and I was like that wasn't that bad and then I thought but I don't really like running so I'm GonNa stop and I felt accomplished enough to do it at that point and I realized wow I can pretty much learn train and do anything and now I'm not scared of learning a new skills and I know you think you're not scared but I think there's a lot that scares us out there and I think it's important to lean into those things sometimes because the benefits aren't just the skill that you learn the benefits are the idea that you can crush obstacles in that translates to pretty much every area of your life in a healthy way and we'll be right back with more feedback Friday right after this. This episode is sponsored in part by Wolf and shepherd. These guys make the most comfortable rushes for people people who are out there and get stuff done and I know this is kind of a bold claim but these guys back it up. They had a guy run and win a half marathon in these dress shoes. I had to look it it up because I thought why do that. Great Publicity Stunt Wolf and Shepherd was founded by a former track athlete and Adidas designer. Who just realized none of the innovations being applied to athletic shoes? are making their way to dress shoes. We're basically wearing these leather shells. That are rock-hard except we're on our feet on these things all freaking day five days a week some of us more. They combine soft off talion leather innovative support cushioning and a bunch of other upgrades all day discomfort. Free it's a broader mission. Here removed distraction from your life so we can be productive active. If you're uncomfortable you're going to be stiffer and going to get a little blisters. You gotta wear these stupid dress socks that you hate your feet or all sweaty things. Don't breathe I've known about these guys for a while now. I was excited to hear. They were going to work with us. And I've got a pair of their ringer loafers right now and they look amazing but they're also ridiculously comfortable. I've gifted a bunch to friends of mine as well. It's like a pair of sneakers but they've looked like dress shoes. Trust me. This is a good purchase. If you've got dress shoes that you wear on a daily basis or even often at all. These are massive massive upgrade from regular Jason. Now listen up right now. Through December Thirteenth Wolf and shepherd is offering one hundred and one dollars off any purchase over three hundred dollars when you use Promo Boko Jordan. This is by far their biggest sale of the year. So you do not want to miss out so visit wolf and shepherd dot com slash Jordan and use Promo Code Jordan Jordan again. Wolf and H. E. P. H. E. R. D. dot com slash Jordan. Yeah I know you know how to spell shepherd but someone else listening may not got to get one hundred dollars off any purchase over three hundred go to Wolf shepherd dot com slash Jordan and use Promo Code Jordan. This episode is also sponsored by eight sleep. We love this thing around here. I know Jason. You've got one as well the POD. This has been a massive game changer for my sleep especially since having the baby maybe we warm the bed up on the baby side I keep my side cool because the thing can warm and cool depending on each side it tracks or sleep. It's just research has shown this deep link between between sleep performance and temperature. The pod reacts in real time to your body's needs adjusting the temperature to keep you comfortable and sleeping deeply all night long. So it combines dynamic temperature regulation. It's not just hot or cold. It changes throughout the night. Depending on your preferences you toss and turn less you got more deep sleep. It's a crazy comfortable bed. It's it's not loud doesn't have some crazy compressor next to it pumping loudly all night Jason. This I know you love yours too. I cannot live without my pod anymore i. I haven't nice and toasty warm. When I get in the middle of the night it cools way down to keep me chilly? Well I'm in deep sleep in the morning. It just raises the temperature gently back up up when I'm ready to get up and I'm ready to hit the day. I have not woken up groggy since I got this thing. And that's saying something because I've had crappy sleep all my life. This thing has changed my life for the better. I am serious. Where can they get the pod? Right now you can get one hundred and fifty dollars off your pod and free shipping when you go to eight sleep dot com slash lashed Jordan. That's eight sleep dot com slash Jordan E. H. T. sleep dot com slash Jordan. For one hundred fifty dollars off. You will not regret it. This episode is also sponsored in part by better help. These guys have been a sponsor for a while. I am a big Fan. We've got a ton of positive feedback. Better help offers. Licensed Professional. Oh counselors who are specialized so depression stress anxiety relationships sleeping trauma anger family conflicts grief self esteem longlist problems humans can have and it's a great way to have an outlet here. Everybody needs a little therapy. Whether you have serious issues with your family or yourself or you just need an outlet and someone's going to listen to you then about your boss. I try to help you. Constructively problem solve. You can connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. So you don't have to drive across town make an appointment. Everything's confidential. It's very very convenient right from your phone video chat phone whatever it is you need to with your therapist and look if you don't click with them get a new one no charge. It's a really affordable option. Our listeners get ten percent off with the Discount Code Jordan Jason. Tell them where to get get started today. Go to better help DOT COM slash Jordan simply fill out a questionnaire to help them. Assess your needs and get matched with a counselor. You'll love that's better help dot com slash Jordan and get ten percent off your first month. Thank you for supporting the show. Your support of or advertisers keeps us on the air to learn more and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals now back to the show for the conclusion of the feedback. Friday all right j what else we got. Hey guys I'm in the midst of a career transition to I've been going to a lot of networking networking events in meeting some great contacts. Let's say I go to one of the week and chatting with ten people at each all of whom express interest in continuing the conversation. After the event I enter the ten people's names and a google sheet in the sheet. I enter their name date. I met them in the date. I sent the introductory email I even setup formulas for certain cells to turn color alert if I haven't heard back from them by a certain time another if I haven't set a coffee date a month after the meeting and also a column for note etc.. I'll email the context within the next day or so so to try and set up coffee but I WANNA remind myself to follow up in a few weeks if I haven't heard back. These are sometimes somewhat senior people who are obviously very busy but expressed a desire desire to connect so would probably appreciate the follow up. It would be great to have an email sent to me to tell me it's time to follow up or log in and see the context. I haven't talked to all things that I believe most. CRM products do except. They're usually expensive. Enterprise products in very few are free or low cost although these are professional contacts contacts. They aren't for sales leads. And I'm not trying to grow a business so I don't really want to spend three hundred dollars a year. So let's say I've scrolled at the bottom of my phone and reconnected with someone. I haven't talked to in awhile. How do I keep from letting that contact or others? Go cold again for me. That solution would be to have software where I can send a reminder for that contact that would send me a note to reach shout to them after a certain amount of time but if you have other tips that would be amazing best need crm. On the cheap. As I mentioned and as you mentioned actually I do use a crm I use contractually for this it's crn that's primarily for real estate agents but does an amazing job here of course as you also mentioned. It's not free and you're wanting to do this on the cheap and there are ways to use air table for this. I'm going to link to a video in the show notes. That might help with this. I don't use air table for this but other people do in have and it's actually been really helpful for a lot of people who listen to the show to go and make kind of their own. crm using something really affordable like Air Table and crm. By the way for those of you who are not familiar with that its customer relationship management so think of it as a big for our purposes. Here a big ROLODEX that says hey. You haven't spoken with Tim and ninety days. You should reach out to Tim. Here's Tim's email that's what contacts really does and that's what a lot of crm's do along with more advanced sales features but if you don't need a proper crm because you're not running a company you're not in sales then you could use something like Boomerang for g mail which bounces email back to you if somebody doesn't respond or after a certain time even if they do respond and I used to use this method and I would have an email thread comeback to me in ninety days or forty five days or so from certain people that are deemed deemed important enough to keep in touch with that. I wasn't thinking of and it would remind me to reach back out to that person to check in and it resulted in a bit more email clutter because as these. He's boomerang started coming back at have ten emails on a Monday and it was like. Hey reach out to these people. It was worth it though especially for the hundred bucks a year or so that the boomerang plug in was costing willing to boomerang in the show notes as well and it's more cost effective but it only works inside g mail. It doesn't work with your work email or outlook or anything like that. Unless else you're using Google suite and you have g mail essentially built in if you're not growing a business or using this professionally. I don't blame you for not wanting to pay but good on you for still wanting to grow and expand your network. This is always always a game changer. For your personal life and your career and you will not regret keeping in touch with dozens or even hundreds words of people that might further your personal life or your career as the years go by especially for a investment of just a few minutes a day in a hundred bucks or less than per year and for those of you who want more systems and small daily habits to consistently grow and expand your network. Check out our free course six minute. Networking which is over at Jordan harbinger dot com slash crash. Course it's one hundred percent free little six minute habits each day that will keep you maintaining your network but this crm this diy crm that. We're talking about here. Here will go a long way all right last but not least pay Jays. How do I deal with my insecurities around being called out by those? I love. oftentimes I'll be caught off guard when someone someone close to me will passing on something about me that I'm self conscious about. I know they mean no harm in it but I have to fight the desire to just close myself off later on when I'm less less emotionally charged I'll think critically about what they said and see if there's something I can do about it because I always want to make sure I'm improving myself but it's hard to do so in the moment. I'm normally really a very confident person. And I'm able to shrug off things like this when they come from strangers or people. I don't know very well. What are some strategies for how I can better deal with this? Thanks the self esteem dream. This is pretty vague. But let me make sure I understand so when people say something to you that you're already self conscious about you ruminate on this for a while and you WanNa shut down and you have to fight that desire if that's what you're saying then you're already doing the right thing by waiting until the emotion passes is and then evaluating it are trying to evaluate it without that emotional cloud hanging over it. You're fighting the urge to close yourself off have a negative reaction both of which would be non productive active then once the emotion. Settle on your end. You're examining what they said for truth so that you can use that feedback to improve. I mean congratulations. You're literally doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing. In these types of situations the more you're able to take in feedback can have a proper response that doesn't result in an emotional or other negative knee jerk reaction and the better if you're trying to eliminate feeling bad about something that you're already insecure about and you get feedback about it. Well that's probably never going to happen in your whole life. I mean I don't know I'm sure people get over stuff all the time. Of course I have and of course we all have. But if you're waiting to never feel sensitive about any feedback that you get from people. I don't think that's a good goal because I don't think that's ever going to happen. It's normal to feel bad about things that you're sensitive about. It's normal to be sensitive about certain things. I know. You're feeling bad about at this because you wish you didn't feel any sort of resistance to feedback but I'm not sure there's anyone on planet earth who loves hearing negative feedback and doesn't resist it at all serves some things elicit stronger reactions than others because you're insecure about them already and therefore more sensitive but this is completely normal feeling bad about feeling bad it is going to get you anywhere so realize this is the human condition and that it's your ego protecting itself and trying to protect you. It doesn't mean you have an ego problem. This is what Ego's four if you keep on doing what you're doing brother you're already on the right track from the sound of it and that's pretty great if you ask me life pro tip of the week compliment people on what you want them to be even if they may not live up to it yet because when people hear themselves singing in a certain way they'll be more motivated to act that way now. This is a complicated complicated set of topics here. I'm not going to get too deep into this. We used to call this behavior shaping back in the day when I was teaching people how to do this. And there's a whole lot of levels to this but for example example. My wife Jen. Her Mom told her that her aunt who by the way comes over every day for a few hours helps with Jaden five days a week. Her and commented on how patient of of a person Jenny is and so hearing that although Jen doesn't feel like she lives up to that it makes her want to be more patient so we can actually help help shape people's behaviour by complementing them on something that we kind of need them to be more so they're showing up on time. Only occasionally you can say you know I love is how a punctual you are when it really counts and it sounds like you might be reinforcing. Negative behavior what they're never punctual. Why would I compliment them on that? You want them to live into that now. If it it doesn't work then you stop doing it. But you can shape people's behaviour by complementing them and giving them positive reinforcement when they act in a way that you want and that might seem really obvious however however most people never actually do this. It's shockingly effective so try it out and let us know how it works and if you have a parenting technique for this I am all ears because because I feel like this works really well with kids especially well kids and adults but now that I've got a baby in the house. LemMe no one missile kick in recommendation of the week by the way a note we recommended game game changers on Netflix. And I was just enthralled by Elvis statistics and all these great experiments they presented but as I started researching and as your letters came in it came to light that a lot of these statistics and other data were actually false. Not Just Cherry pick but straight up made up crap away made up into saving. Yeah Man that sucks movie. I Know I love the documentary. I was like oh my gosh all these different things. There's a whole document that was like eighty seven pages that someone sent me and it was like. Hey this made up. Hey this no real citation. Hey when they said these studies show this this this there were no studies. This is just something they said. Wow how yeah. I know. Not to mention conflicts of interest from the producers as well. So it's produced by. I think Arnold Schwarzenegger James Cameron and his wife and they sell Vegan Vegan protein. They owned vegan schools. They've got vegan PEA protein patents and all these different products. What's a Vegan school? I guess schools where they serve Vegan food and teach a Vegan. Ethos ethos okay how to be Vegan. I guess so I mean you know. It's a school but it's fine. It doesn't mean veganism as bad or anything in fact. I love Vegan getting food. I think there's a lot to the Vegan idea but it just means that this particular documentary is extremely biased which is no big surprise. I just didn't realize how much of the data was actually just not only skewed dramatically but fabricated for the filmmakers agenda. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But man a lot of experiments they ran. were just kind of stunts. There's no study behind it the idea that Oh these people. They went Vegan and their performance up. Well people circled back with a lot of those athletes and their back to eating meat because their performance way down would have many examples was how they showed the firefighters and they're like look at your blood markers they're so much better now. Yeah Yeah. The firefighters were eating cheese hoagie sandwiches three times a day and then they went into Vegan. Diet so somebody else apparently is showing. Well Okay my clients. They get off junk food to the standard American Diet and then when they go to this normal balanced diet their blood markers do the same thing. You don't have to go to a vegan diet from cheese hoagies to show improvement. You just have to stop eating cheese hoagies for three meals a day in your blood markers improve in similar ways so it's kind of like hey look at this Vegan diet and it's like yeah but if you just literally eaten pretty much anything thing other than what you're eating before your cholesterol would have gone down your serum cholesterol. Whatever it is would have gone down so it's deliberately misleading in that way and that was kind of a bummer because nobody likes propaganda but you kind of want to get excited about something and say oh this is really good and being vegan is is much better than eating a standard American Diet however anything is better than eating a standard American Diet? You don't have to go full Vegan to have your blood markers improve if you we big MACs three times a week you don't. You're basically doing the worst thing you can do for your body phrase so that was kind of a bummer. So the recommendation of the week is of course I would love teaching critical thinking here on the show. That documentary is interesting. Although when you watch game changers also Google some of the criticism of it will link to some of the stuff in the show notes as well because there are legit criticisms that are done by people who are a little bit more balanced and of course there are criticisms done by people who are Paleo that are not that balanced and you can can read all of those things and and get informed for yourself in the meantime if you don't feel like dealing with all that check out the beak rim yoga documentary on Netflix. That documentary is called B. B. K. R. M. Yogi Guru Predator. And it's about well it's about the guy who founded beaker Yoga and about how a lot of what he says Econo- not necessarily true slash stolen from other people and how he's actually been abusive to a lot of his students and it's a creepy watch but it's really interesting. Yeah I found it fairly fascinating especially the part where. He tried to kind of trademark his twenty-six poses which are basically stolen from his guru back in India. Right and people are like wait a minute. These are not something he invented. These are poses that have been around for a really long time that were published in books in India for a long long time time and he created something and it went and got trendy and he has got a crazy personality so that helped get things moving fast and man this guy. He's a definitely. You will got several screws loose and you can tell just the ensuing trial. I don't WanNA spoil anything but there's a lot there you go. Oh yeah this person's not quite right not not quite right at all. Yeah Jordan you and I and also the people who were interviewing him. We're just not smart enough to realize his genius and how far advanced he actually is. That's right yeah it was basically like oh well if you don't get it. It's because you don't understand how enlightened I am I mean that's classic cult narcissism bs right there so beaker Yoga uh-huh Guru Predator willing to that in the show notes. Hope you all enjoyed that. I WanNa thank everyone that wrote in this week. A link to the show for this episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger DOT com. If you WANNA come. I'm to prison with us. There's still several spaces left. You can register now and if you wanna do that email me prison at Jordan harbinger dot com. We're going to be going to a maximum security prison outside outside Reno Nevada February twenty six twenty twenty and helping with an inmate educational program. I've done it before it's life changing superfund super interesting interesting. Just an absolute absolutely rare experienced. And I'd love to bring a bunch of you with me. Well I am bringing a bunch of you with me if you WANNA join. Email me prison at Jordan harbinger dot com quick. Shout out to Kay who doesn't use her real name on the Internet Pasta. I see what you did there who recommended the BPM documentary again. Super Interesting will link to that in the show notes. Go Go back and check out Jack. Barsky part one and two are. KGB's spy friend who became an American for real. Just one of the most amazing stories. I've heard on the show ever if you haven't heard that that's why we got for you this week. And if you want to know how he managed to book all these great people and manage my relationships using systems using tiny habits check out our six minute networking working. Course which is free over at Jordan. Harbinger DOT com slash. Course the number one mistake I see people make is postponing this and not digging the well before you get thirsty. Oh I do this but I've got something something else I it's a few minutes a day. Don't wait you cannot make up for lost time when it comes to relationships and your network they take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff. Twenty years ago this absolutely been critical to my success as well in business and in personal you could find that all at Jordan harbinger dot com slash course. I'm on Instagram and twitter at Jordan Harbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show and videos of our interviews are at Jordan harbinger dot com slash Youtube Jason. You can check out my tech. PODCAST grumpy grumpy old GEEKS. We discuss what went wrong on the Internet. And who's to blame along the cybersecurity APPs gadgets books and more. That's grumpy old. geeks get it in your podcast player of choice. This show was created in association with podcast. One this episode was produced by Gen. Harbinger edited by J Sanderson shots for the episode or by Robert Fogerty Music by Evan Viola. Keep sending in those questions to Friday at Jordan Harbinger Dot Com our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own and yeah. I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing lamenting anything you hear on the show we rise by lifting others so share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got a lot more in the pipe very excited to bring it to you and in the meantime do your your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see next time attention true crime lovers if you haven't checked it out it yet be sure to catch up with the hits real channel. podcast murder made me famous. Join Crime Reporter. Steve Helling and those involved in the cases as they examined the most infamous crimes imaginable to unravel the twisted personalities. That were thrust into the spotlight including the Green River killer. Jeffrey Dahmer and Jack The ripper. Download new episodes of murder made me famous every week on apple podcasts. And podcast one.

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Interrogation and Body Language with Greg Hartley

Unstructured Interviews

42:47 min | 3 months ago

Interrogation and Body Language with Greg Hartley

"Today's episode was also a video interview. Please check it out at Youtube, dot com slash Eric. My name is Eric. And this is unstructured, or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today we're joined by another behavioral engineer. And it is a perfect term. Because Greg Hartley started out in the military wasn't interrogator as interrogator. He had to be able to read body language because he didn't know if he was being effective or not. And ultimately he is with us today. He trains businesses. He is a consultant for television. How are you doing today Greg to a greater? How about your fantastic? I'm really excited to have you on wanted to have you on for a while. You work with a previous guests Scott. Rows Scott Nine met a couple years ago. I guess it seems like a couple years. We've been added about five years. We've got a couple of ventures together and working on a book together right now. liar. Book and we have a site with subscription. Bilingual micro courses called by language tactics dot com, so we worked together. He's by language guy, more police interrogator, mine, sex resistance trainer. Op Skyward especially I worked as a special forces support interrogator in the first four. So mine is a little more prisoner of war with more terrorists, more police and Crime local, school. Has a right there, because that was one of my questions that I was contemplating while researching and I consider that interrogating a suspect or a criminal. They're not always the same. Is Different than. Interrogating an enemy, combatant or soldier and I'll tell you my reputation. You could tell me from completely off, but like I've had Jack Barsky on. Who is the KGB agent? I don't consider him evil. I consider him to be a Patriot job right? He's just. He works for the other side. How do you reconcile? some in a criminal or suspect versus a soldier? Well first thing is a soldier, either is conscripted and forced to job, or they have signed up there patriot and they're doing a job to protect something. They hold you all take a step. Further and people have been angry at me for saying this before, but if you can't understand the mindset of terrorists, who is. Is Willing to blow himself up for 'cause. You can't interrogate because you're. You're too narrow minded, and you're to focused on. Consider them all in the same person, and that's not the case now. There's a certain thing that causes terrorists. Go go in this. This suicide bomber thing, but prisoners of war typically are not saying now. Are there crazies and criminals there, too, but they're not typically the same. Large numbers of them are patriots. Just like you said in many cases they may have had a day job doing X. Y. or Z. before they joined up for the military. You never know, imagine if. God rest his soul Patrick Tillman had been captured and interrogated. Is He criminal or bad guy? He's the guy who gave up. His country and so you have to think of it that way to be good at the sector personal imperative. Absolutely because I think an even tighter with Alder James and Robert Hanssen are traders, and they can go rotten hell criminals but Jack Barsky. He is a spy. They work for the same people yet. But, but Barsky did it legitimate. He was born there, and the Oh, his countrymen and I have no issue with it. So how do you handle them? Then how do you approach it or and have you approached both kinds? And here's the key right. I don't. I'm not typically involved in a trader interrogation because US military is prohibited by statute from interrogating American citizens. That's typically because when you do. It's only because they're swept up in some other group, you end up getting hands on finding out. But when I've talked to Iraqis and a lot of the Iraqi soldiers in the fell four, for example, conscript Gezim crutches would never would not be able to walk in years Hoover Saddam had forced into action so when you're talking those guys every. Every one of them is different as all people differently after poke and prod and find the makeup of the person most of what you know, the body language for me is more about understanding why someone's doing something and when they're trying cover some piece of information same thing I do in my in my day job now when I go to corporations, look for why they're hiding. Most people are not criminals. Although people do bad things, they get themselves into position on the other hand. People like aims and folks like that. They engineer their way. Mass and they are bad guys, and I'm view like rotten hill with Americans in harm's way for that. That's interesting that you said that so essentially it's almost like. A slippery slope type of deal. Nobody's really a villain in their own story right? Yeah, no humans are really. I would say I feel like Jane Goodall among trump's except for on the trump to the coolest thing about. Is that anything we do enough feels normal. That's the bad thing about human being so if you put yourself in a place that you repeatedly do something. Enough it will start feeling normal and okay. It's how people get past all the horrendous acts. They do the other people you know we talked. What would you talk about psychopaths and the things while they have no feeling sport, anybody can get hardened to to torment her. Doing that kind of thing I taught resistance to interrogation for four years when I was in my twenties, and in that compound, he had psychologists. Looking at us, not not at the prisoners, but does because the natural tendency. is to ramp up aggression over time, and we were physical with prisoners, so we are teaching them what to do if they were captured and they very close attention to us, because their level of violence would ramp up. If you're not cautious, wasn't this is like the Stanford prison experiment? Right or worries about it and I know that's been possibly debunked yes. Oh, actually talked to fill Zimbardo after. That because he predicted all of the algorithm stuff. Happened really he didn't talk about it specifically, but his his study certainly was just right on exactly what it was, but that's yet is no humans. I have a book called them become an expert thing in two hours and I say humans designed to look constable. The maslow's thin looking to someone who's better. It just happened that the NL forget his name now. who was the ringmaster of Abu? Ghraib was the only real prison garden whole bunch because reservist are. Are the army's prison guards, and this guy happened to be prison Barton maximum security, and so you only need four. Everybody will up to him. And they started emulating his behavior of misconducts, can so that ramp up in predictable from words Bardo done, but where I was working of course, sere survival, evasion, resistance escape, reteaching operators in those guys had powder this deterioration, and they watched us very closely with our hands on with whacking people and capturing very harsh. Environment S I've got to go right to it then waterboarding. Yes, so do I think waterboarding is effective. No, we'll get you use it one. Did it get used on our own troops and? Do you think so. Let's roll them altogether together. Just kind of compound session. Whatever okay. Yes, waterboarding came out everything we did in sear school came out of what happened our soldiers in past experience, so when Nick Rowe came back and starting the school after being held at a tiger cage for five years in Vietnam, he brought things from the Korean experience from his torch from all that stuff and we would talk to experts with all the time to learn more about experiences. Meditative reminds those kinds of things, but. waterboarding certainly part of that and the Navy used it pre a second. You would think navy water. That's kind of their their little. Army not as much button. What is one thing they said Sheikh. Mohammed was was interrogating waterboarding forty-three. Numbers. There's. All you. Going to do by waterboarding, someone's get them to do something or say. Something is not reliable. The information get and I always say if there's a ticking bomb in. You knew it was expert or why, where the options and you had to get an answer. Can you knew it was one the other? Maybe it's useful then it's useful to get a person talk. Talk, but at the end of the day torture has proven not to be reliable form of of information gathering. We know that. Is it a reliable horrid getting someone to talk to say something sure because someone's going to say whatever it takes to get you to stop what it is. One of the things that most prisoners will tell you is physical torture. needs to continue to ramp up because they get accustomed to it. Jeremiah Denton Nelson session. If you've read that book John McCain Those guys will tell you their pain scholes ruth. And it's just it's Ok one. I wanted to definitely cover that because. It's so controversial. There's both sides of it because I know there's a lot of soldiers or seals, or whatever say hey. I was waterboarded right? I can deal with it. It's not GonNa hurt anybody, but totally see the other end that if it's nothing but pain and all you'll do as liar, say whatever it takes to make it. Go Away then desks, maybe not actionable intelligence, but when I taught agencies. The question's always what is torture. Where's the line? The simple definition I used and I taught for ninety, two, ninety, three until late, two, thousand, six, seven, I was teaching and. If. It feels like you're hazing. You're torturing because if you're pushing the quit, which is is and they can't quit. There's no limit. Just pushing. So it's a simple if you can get that your head through. And actually had discussions with Alan Dershowitz on nightline about torture before we talked about, he believed in two warrants. I don't believe in that. I think that if an interrogator believes he can get information tortured goes and does it. Then he or she puts their hands. CAN COPS and gets their import if they got information I don't think that it's good for us to create a new class of people who walked torture, because what happens in Kendall on the torture in that job. And you're setting people up for lots of long lifelong. Problems so I'm not a fan of torture lots for example. That makes me think of the George Patton. Quotation, where he said that I am like one of those creatures. In case you know war, break glass, yes, yes. Interrogators in their day where? Do you know the history of interrogation? How this whole thing king about! Please yes, so bill, so the most famous interrogator, the guy who created our noncoercive interrogation also created all. In a others mosaics in the Cinderella's castle down in Disneyworld believe it or not. SOKA and ultimately on the La City Hall US artist, but he was range. Yeah, there, you go you. He was. He would tell you if you read his book enteric. that. He was kind of a nobody in life until the war broke out more. and. Everything about everything. What you'll find is most interrogator and talk for hours about nothing because we have useless efficient, it's what makes you good at what you do. So he was a people's stories. Because it say you'd ask. Has To Berlin from the end, he the guy would say for example. I took a two thirty train. you smile and say I. Know You're lying. I've been on that line fifty times in. There is not theory train so. He became a father of American interrogation. In all the things that I taught and all the things that we used in the core for sure came from on show now he wasn't and this. It's really hard because he was a Nazi. Yeah, so it's kind of like well. He was the friendly Nazi it's it's. It's an extension of operation paper, clip or something, or it's like well. We know what you were, but you really good. Yeah and I think that's the case I think while I. Don't think he tortured anyone. You know. He's still part of that machine that that did all this acts and I think when they have not read enough details about how they worked the deal, what he was the person who established this whole school and the we. We interrogations people as late as as World War One there is no interrogation poor. There were still people they warehouse prisoners more than doing anything else for the Dion we start to see value in humid played human intelligence played a much larger part in Vietnam any of the war before, and then even in the first Gulf order. You're not using radios and I think it played a huge part, so the the interrogation piece is about getting a person to feel comfortable enough to give you information. I used to say. I I saw treason for living well. It's funny. You say that That leads into something else. I was considering ahead of time and that. Is that interrogation and negotiation. Are really the same or interrogation as a sub form of negotiation. Would you agree I agree? I think what you're doing in in any good negotiators changing person on the axis of action, but based on trust. The person believes there's there's an opportunity there isn't. It's almost a mirror version. An interrogator pairs your options and creates the illusion much like a much like that guy who's negotiating that there's only one option the option I want so it's much more control. We used to say interrogation I. Control Everything about your life in a cage. I was I was forward deployed. You don't control everything you're right. There were people coming out of. That but you control everything. All have to do is get past you for the hour to have this spin them. And so we need to get them to trust usable. Talk is usually works. In the first Gulf War, they raise their and say I have secrets. I've heard about that that I. Remember the lead up to the first Gulf War that it was the the ever powerful super elite Republican Guard. The, I remember. We know. Everybody was really pro. I mean I was worried about it. Everybody's very very worrying. I mean we're talking about you, know Saddam, who killed gun, how many Iranians he poison them e poisonous people, and this had to be so tough to be his elite guards, and then when the American hit there were, people lined up handing rifles overseeing food. Strategy for me. That's right. Food Food is wonderful motivator and Surrendering to drowns. Idea every partners. Yeah, I mean if I can get food. You know we talked to people who would say. There are some hard nose. Guys say I'm prepared to fight forever. Good. He's not and you just talk to his friend. It's the problem is when you have a conscript army, and they're only doing something out of fear. Not Effective and you know the thing about us, military as professional military. Everyone has a calling us. They're not forced into duty. It's not slavery and I think it is shows inner performance well, and I was in the army for a minute to and really what people? Get wrong as most soldiers aren't really quote Patriots. Most soldiers fight for each other yes. So they're buddies. Yeah. It's your buddies in the squad. Maybe you'll find this amusing I always. Did you say anything? You want about a soldier's mother, but never talk about their home state. There's no a friend of mine. You should probably meet as well Jim pile. WHO's a published author and interrogated when his favorite jokes is only two states in the union really care about their state. Because you've never ns Texas Alabama, he would always say here's. You never heard anybody say. When did you say about? Rhode Island. Puerto Rico state but believe me. Yeah more more flags. Yeah, so I guess when you when you think when you say Patriot versus army. You're right there. Many people who think that everybody is. Rapidly Patriot and I. When I I was reserve active Army Reserve Guy that Guy Utah for years and is to teach these guys. You're mercenary. You're not in the reserves for the right purpose because they're in college, money and That's human nature. and. You'RE GONNA even within every unit. You'RE GONNA slide on Patriots, and then people not so patriotic I agree with you. And a Lotta become more patriotic over time. Right tot lot of is. I I needed a job. I needed food. Paper wasn't hiring. It K- I joined the army to pay for college. I became much more patriotic over time of course. Yeah, exactly exactly now. Let's roll into your technique, okay? You have the Reid technique yet. Is it kind of a play on words against the Reid Technique? No, no, no, not that rejecting what it is. Is something simple for people I thought. How do I get something easy for people to put in their heads? So if you review what you're seeing, you analyze it and when I say review I'm really talking about taking everything. Just look guts. Be a child. Stop trying to be. Everybody thinks being a body language expert is sexy and it's this. There's some. Is GonNa get you women, money and power. Co. Stakes. Were swimming in that you can tell but the. The funny part of it is, it's simply looking a child paying attention to everything you see, and then looking for what's different than analyse p that evaluate piece is starting to put it into buckets, so the review is taken data. I encourage people when it was teaching. Like Intel, folks just look, don't try to understand. Just look pay attention to what's different baseline. Then evaluate. Put it into boxes. Understand whether. Y something changed and then decide what really matters and so it's not really like A. You're talking to John Reid method minimizing method. Interrogation like I said because they're aligned and it's like hey, same word that rhymes right. Re so when I was when I was trying to put. If you write books, you suddenly realize that you're not as smart as you think you are. About titles and every book I've ever written. Someone else had better idea for title than I did, and so the I can read you like a book starting that win, which eventually became the body talking to revision, and those guys have much better idea for title than I did night tied into their title and work through that and trying to come up with an acronym, but yeah, it's simple. I just try to pay attention to what your face faces doing your eyes or doing your torsos do your answer well, and then actually leads into another question whenever I'm you know book somebody I always say Hey. What books do you WanNa? Talk? About what things do you want? You have ten bucks. And, you happen to name two of them and they're not new. Though the most dangerous bit book you'll ever read is one that you put up I think that's two thousand eleven. And the other one is get people to do what you want. I think that's like twenty thirty or forty I can't remember. But why is it? Those two books. What is special about those books that you want to kind of? Put them a front. I would say maybe I'm stupid, but it took me twenty years to understand the what's in get people to do what you want. It really is a simple approach to why people go about the Salinas or doing if you, if you read the book and you stop thinking about it being trying to tell you how to read body language to manipulate people and just look at what's happening with. With his corona virus. You can't Miss People doing exactly what the book is about, and that's Maslow's hierarchy and walking up the chain, and then pushing the try to get the upper hand, right that's human nature, so every learned about interrogation was taken about spy-catching. Those pieces that I learned from other people it all ties into that very simple thing and I take that Muslim hurricane which has been discredited, people will say. Just watch what people do and I say you're never dealing with a person, self, actualization, and you as an average person are not going to deal with people in safety needs for a physical needs. You're going to have belonging differentiation like. Do you think you're? And the real masterful part that I learned over the years of interrogating doing that, simply paring down, we talked about it just a couple of minutes ago in negotiation, paring down options so that it appears you only have the options I'm offering you. Very simple and very I call one of those things I call Land Rome principal after a very famous special forces, Guy knows very one sear school. Who would could take? He could talk to you for ten minutes to make you think had no choice, even though you just met him except for what he was asking you to do. Really powerful guy, not ever interrogator train just an Intel Guy Really. Really really together. That's the reason for that one and we just revised that one to take into account at or may not have the revision, but we just revised that take into account social media because I wrote that book I when my space, but was the big deal, and so they give you an idea. We changed it to be around how facebook and twitter and all those things impact will. So. The most dangerous business book I spent a lot of time with business, and all I did with his I worked with negotiators work with SPYCATCHER's. I worked with. You name it in my twenty ish. Years of being in the are working around every thing all I tried to do was taking what they knew. And what they used and apply that to the business world, and it's not as harsh as you would think. It's mostly about paying attention to people's drives, persuading them to trust you getting the things you need about team building, and all those things in ways I learned from most people that was interesting, though because. When I was reading it and immediately you get a vibe on a books, and that had a total maquiavelian quality to it from the jump. and. It's definitely. Shall we say it's not the Kinder Gentler Body later? The book it is a full on. If I'm I'm not sure if you've read. Robert Greene are Robert Salvini. Okay well Robert Greene wrote, a seminal thing called the forty eight laws of power, and it's like throw history how people have managed to take control what it's much more on the Robert Greenside then the warm and fuzzy. Robert Challe Dini. Influence which is kind of seminal work on. that. Try to say to people. I bring to this something. I know from my past when you right of course. I think people often. There's a darth vader costume that comes writing books like this and people are afraid. And you automatically get to be the softer kinder guy really. Rather than have to ever, you'll never have to be the heart. Ascott. Excuse my English, but. You never have to be guy. But. was that a deliberate diffraction differentiator? I should say yes. Okay. Yeah Yeah Mark Mark Bodin. We both know who was absolutely so charming. Yes, so just a few sive in its behavior I could never see mark writing that book. Danced with one brand new as they say and. I came from twenty years mostly military. I spent time in infantry battalions, then went off to be interrogator in the OPS. Guys, and that is a trainer, so what I know in my style. If you look at my old press pictures that. came. In, so that was my style and it's kind of your branch. I can't be more. Mark is a polished actor, wonderful accent, and all of those things in T. We're very. We're a little bit different people. But still have similar skills. I find that I actually enjoy, and that's why mark always comes up and chase us. Almost always come up because. I find in the body language world that you have to directions of people that get in it. You have mark who's coming from the performance side, yes, and a beautiful. Oh yes. Yes, in fascinating, too. Because because he did all they mask work. And had to go through extreme gestures to express, so he's all about projecting body language primarily. Yes, he reads to but I would say that he's a projector and you're a reader. That's fact, so do I ever use body language? Assertively aggressively shearer, I mean you want people to trust you and believe you I work rooms by standing in front of a room and doing those kinds of things, and ensuring that people are paying attention by engaging engaging the last person so used body language that way, but not in the same way mark with great coach you know big speaking in those kinds of things for that reason and I think what you'll find. Is that every time you talked to? One of US Eric, the all come to this with different skill sets, and not started off at eighteen, wanting to be body language guy we all. Through life and found this actually chased two. Well there you go. Chase wanted to pick up women. I mean He. He is admittedly from the pickup artist and. We go into because I. personally repulsed by that World Strauss because. Yeah yeah it. I have to be truthful. It does bother me because you're you're you're treating somebody as an object in as soon as their object? That's that's psychopathic to me. Anytime you're and you know, let's face. Your kids, but at some point you hopefully outgrow. Everything's about you but I will tell you. The first time I heard of that book game was One of my people. I was teaching in DC. He came to me and said Hey, have you heard spoke to? If you need that, you're desperate, little man! And I just walked away from it, and it went back and I thought I can write. A counter level can wrote a book called. The date decoder is a women's dating. To. Have Women think about themselves? And to take some of the skills again from my pass world, where we may have one interrogator to talk to two thousand people, and we have to prioritize their needs before we talk to them and look for deception and all that I took that approach and said you know you've only got so much of life. Why would you date losers profile and pick the right ones and got let people again and that book actually got me into Cosmopolitan and for? It was an interesting little. Did you make to Oprah? No never made it. Oh, I would be richer if I had. The view, no! No I don't think I would like my my personality or style. You never know, but. I don't want to beat them a too badly, but he also got out of the world himself and he wrote a book later called the truth. Right and it was kind of going against all of, but yeah that whole. That's a sketchy very gross. They call kids when their kids want an upper hand. You know there's a reason so hit us and all that stuff and people always want to learn that. They want some magic power mid body language is the same way people want some magical power. They think that when I scratch my nose at signals, something and I always say if you're that guy that looking for that trick. I'm probably not your instructor I'm a guy looking for teaching based on what for what Steve Vacation from that based on why and dig into y person's doing? Because sometimes a person. Will look like they're lying because stressed about something else true true. Actually Malcolm Glide. Wolves latest book goes into that a little bit. And one thing I appreciate about you is. I feel like you've express a message that I believe you're teaching. What everybody always knew, but we have deliberately buried and forgotten because we're dependent on our smartphones and everything else in our incapable. Of Reading People. If. You think back when people talk about liars. They'll say somebody's A. Liar. You've heard that term before then lip lies. Those are all good buddy. When your skin goes Pale when you're telling a story, but is leaving your skin and your muscles for fight or flight. There's an indicator. Your lips get thin and drawn because mucous membranes are. There's an indicator, so we've known that stuff. When they say a person new story forward and backward they're telling outbreak store free asks backward, but we've forgotten was because the too focused on the world on things on whether it's machine. Software entertainment or something else just lost that art. On reality! Into! The back things actually I want to. Share with you on the screen if I will. A brief interrogation and just see what kind of read you get out of it. No Pun intended. Either either lighter okay. Are you seeing this I? Could see it. Yes, I'm going to play, and then we'll, and you can react to whatever you think sounds good, and then there we were. Face to face. Did you kill grateful? I barely knew the man, and why would I kill him? He was a neighbor that lived two hundred yards down the beach. Do you really believe this is a vendetta by the government of believes to take you down and kill absolutely? Can't hear. Okay, you're not getting sound out. I'm not getting sound, but I already can tell you. That's more than normal contact. And I contact for Americans is a very specific thing by contacting other cultures. You get a little bit more than the Middle East people have more of a hypnotic gaze kind of thing, but when people pay too much too much, I, contact makes me uncomfortable. Okay, and you didn't hear any of the dialect any of the words. All right well, we'll just. Skip that experiment for now we can. Essentially he was. said. Did you kill him? He said why would. A conditional question yeah. That was a trigger in my mind as soon as I heard the, why would I do that? bub-bubba that distancing? I thought maybe there's something going on here. Well conditioning, a question of any kind is you know Bill Clinton even when he was doing it. I did not have sexual relations with that woman miss. Lewinsky long drawn out before the. No, that's always a good indicator, but why would I do it as redirect? Get some time to think or they do whatever no is asked me. Did I kill someone? No is clearly the answer you get. It. I think we are so accustomed to magic tricks that people think that. That kind of I contacted good. That kind of context is horrible. It is the only time someone is going to pay totally. On distracted attention to you with their eyes when they're trying to ensure that you believe what they say and I'm GonNa give an example. The? This is a parlor trick and I'd I'd do it all the time. Just because it makes people, your is moving around. Answer this question after you pay attention to your eyes, recall and everybody looking can do the same thing. And pay attention to your eyes and see what they do not looking at you. I'm seeing myself on the screen at the moment. and. That question is what is the fifth word of the Star spangled banner. That's the old NLP eye accessing cues in. Accused the only reason they're. They're important in this discussion is because you move your eyes when you're thinking, so ask a personal question. They need to think of the answer and give you details and they're staring at you. It means they've rehearsed it. Or they're afraid that you're going to figure out something or for that kind of hypnotic gaze is probably one of the best indicators. Someone's lying to you as opposed to what most people think that's going to move your eyes around, but when I asked you where you wrote Tuesday the fourth of July unless it's just sticks out in your memory, you probably need to rifle through your Rolodex rifle through your pictures to figure out where you are. So I contact that's hypnotic is one of the best indicators to. Okay and let's let's go into the eye accessing cues just a little bit, too because I think that that has almost been overdone or overplayed in some ways that like if it's the bottom left. It's always this top right. It's always that. Could it be said that just ask the questions and watch what they do and establish whatever their pattern is and see if there's a deviation from their normal pattern, it's baseline everything that you're going to deal with US baseline, and so if I ask you a question and you deep, you deviate from what people talk you as normal and the old. The old book learning is up left. Is Truth in any of this kind of thing, but the way your brain is designed you to different places now give you three or four pay attention to your own is everyone listening and the first one is What's the nineteenth word of the sixteenth were the? The Star spangled banner and most people are going to drift slightly to up into their left as they access that sound rifled through it, but if I ask you hair when you talk, Scott, what did he tell you was his favorite? Tell pay attention on is now. You'd find your eyes drifting around. That's your baseline. Is You try to answer the question? And then it's it's such an easy thing going to corporate America. And I walk into the CEO's office and I. WanNa to talk to him about something. The first thing I do is use his wall against him right. He's got pictures whole at a golf. Course in all I do is say hey. Where's the Gulf? Where's that golf? Course in which is that? And then he accesses visual memory and I've got his memory, and then I can look for deviation as he goes down the road, but you need to get a baseline because there's no such thing as a magic bullet. None of this is automatic. Not all people are wired the same including even to people who have grown up to get wallpaper aren't the same, so you've gotta get normal for that person and then look for nation. That actually leads into. Because I'm so interested in this there's to me a spectrum and another guest I've had on is Henry Henrik sexiest, and he is known as the Darren Brown of Sweden. Okay, so he's a mental Est.. and. Why does he didn't well? He's manipulating people to extract information and things out of all right. He describes it further as it's not only directional, but it is also a tactile, some pencil respond to a to physical things some to smell some to sound some to site and if you can carefully. Question you can go, okay. This person responds more. Did you see that side wing by really quickly? Or Wow that was allow you just different well. I'm tactile. Look at big little lies. I'm very auditory. That's just a fact. So if you're if you're an auditory person, my best indicators are words and sounds like it sounds wrong. Everything else turns on my wife Aloft. We go to parties. Say I know you don't have your tools on go talk to that guy. Turn your tools. Because I, listen I. Try not to use this in normal everyday life on average people because it's a little. So little messy if you do and and people manipulated over time, and you really don't want people to feel manipulate. But when I hear something wrong I, pay attention, and as a result, my memories are more auditory more digital than a lot of visual things. I can walk right past visual things unless I'm really paying attention. And people remember in certain ways. You know we the old thing about how you learn visual. Auditory kinesthetic all that stuff comes into play at you need to take all of those pieces in into account when you're talking to person to figure out there Cayenne is that why an by the way thank you for all? Your books are an audio format. The hardest thing I've ever done said to someone I like accomplishing in trying new things never again would narrate my own book. I did the first two, and they were abridged. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. But they're still in audio, and I mean. As somebody who does podcasting things like that I really appreciate it almost to the point where I won't consume unless it's an audio tape. I've learned to do that forever. I felt like I needed to read and I find that much better with audio than I. Am actually reading paper looking at at taxed, so yeah I think it depends on. Your brain is white, right? Now! I've got A. Crazy reach back, but. Rules for radicals and saw Linski. What are your thoughts on that? Well, you know we live in a country where freedom is a is a poisonous dangerous thing, if if it's taken too far, and if it's not taken too far, it's also a poisonous dangerous so I I say often that I think. We're headed somewhere bad because people are focused on south and know having been low -tary guy. Of things I I think you should be allowed to think that way, but if that's all you think of is, your opinion matters more than everybody else's. Then you get into a bond and I think the the hard left in. The moving in that direction is inevitable as people. Get, more crowded as people get closer together and let's hope that it goes much better than. Than the experiments in the past. But radicalizing people anytime that you are going out to turn over the apple cart and have a small minority go. Drive for the majority I think. That's my opinion and just as a final thing because we are in a middle of a pandemic right now. What are your? Thoughts on the. Current situation, and how would you recommend interacting as possible? To Comfort people or to. Make them. Feel better because we're not able to interact with each other normally right? Somebody asked me today I had a call. Tell me. Something about doing body language owns soon while nothing is going to be normal. You're not going to read normal, but as a person is not. Being in front of a camera, or if they are, they know to keep their hands down to those kinds of things I think the biggest thing is to remember your human being in. You need other people. Unless something's broken in you and your broken toy. You need other people in some capacity, and those other people need that same kind of companionship. I will tell you that sometimes the right answer even in a bad situation. Is Not what comes to your first month, so take a second. Take a beat think about what you're saying to the person because all of us are in different places more than one person I know has lost someone very close to them as part of this. I'm not a big fan of lockdowns and you know I'm I'm I'm a big fan of individual freedom as you heard me, say and I'm fearful of what this could lead to. Because government doesn't like to give power back is just nature of government. But I would like to hope that people in power as well as average people learn one thing from this in that's life is temporary. Around you are an important part of your infrastructure, your personal infrastructure and you need to pay attention. Look out for those people whether it's. Whether. It's just a touch as much as we are. At a distance, people need to be touched human nature, or whether it's a word, or whether it's just a note keeping in touch and making sure that you those relationships star important. Well on that note in for. Keeping the people I do a livestream now on a pretty regular basis and the object behind it as the audience has an opportunity to ask questions. Themselves in a chat and I was wondering I did it was Our Mitchell Scott. Rouse! Wonder if you would be up for doing one of those two where the audience and your audience could ask questions that they have I would love there. Thank you for asking. Thanks for the opportunity. Awesome, and now on that note. Couple things that people on checkout body language tactics dot com right right Yup in that you can go and get some free things. If you have a lexus in your house, all you have to do is say Alexa enable body language tactics. Alexa enable by language tactics, and you'll get a couple of free lessons week on audio lessons from Scott or me, and then it will go into your. Have it travis. Two years in the military in that side of things. But you can, you can put it in your flash briefing I. Think is what it's called and get a couple of those a day. And then there are some free body language videos, and then somebody can pay a few dollars to get special for people who are locked in right now to. Give it away, so people can see what we do. Awesome Hand Gregory Hartley Dot Com. That's find out about you. That's my home page. It's a blog I keep it up sometimes and sometimes depending on I feel. Ok Well Greg. Thank you so much for coming on. What a pleasure! Thank you. was a great fantastic. He just was on the youtube channels a matter of fact as part of a livestream with chase US Mark Bodin and Scott Rouse. Make sure you check that out. YouTube dot com slash Eric Hundley and while I have you here? Couple of shows I WANNA check out my good friend Brett, Alan host the open mic podcast with Allen, and he has been just hilling lately of some great guests like Lisa, lamp Nellie and another good friend of mine, Randy, Jones and he chose Jones dot show, which is both the show name and a url. Be Sure. You check them both out and thank you so much for listening.

Army Patriots Mitchell Scott Mark Mark Bodin Greg Hartley Eric Hundley Youtube US engineer Jack Barsky Intel Guy Utah Saddam Vietnam Alan Dershowitz Patrick Tillman John Reid Alexa golf
138 - The Brutal KGB and Russia's Long History of Secret Police

Timesuck with Dan Cummins

2:11:28 hr | 1 year ago

138 - The Brutal KGB and Russia's Long History of Secret Police

"The combat Gozo Dr nast of annoy Besse pass nasty, aka the KGB of the Soviet Union was established in March nineteen fifty four in Moscow. And those are the toughest words, I'm gonna say all show long. The KGB was the world's largest spy and state security machine involved in every aspect of life for the everyday people of the Soviet Union more than five hundred thousand people worked within the KGB at its peak. And there were thousands of agents also working as spies abroad, the main duties of the KGB were to gather intelligence and other nations conduct counterintelligence maintain the secret. Police the KGB military corps and the border guards suppress internal resistance and conduct electronic espionage. The KGB also enforced Soviet morals through torture imprisonment and executions and promoted Soviet ideology through propaganda and total control over the Soviet media. The KGB fell apart in the late eighties along with the rest of the Soviet Union. Officially dissolved in nineteen ninety one. Well, before it crumbled, it made life real real real rough for a lot of Russians and a lot of other people, and it's foreign agents infiltrated the ranks of the world's other national intelligence agencies, including the CIA in United States. The KGB also inherited the vast Soviet gulag system of forced labour camps from its Soviet intelligence predecessors. And there were a lot of predecessors. The KGB is one a long line of Russian secret police acronyms that regardless of the actual words always represented the same thing to the average Russian person fear and oppression Russian secret police, tortured and killed hundreds of thousands of people during the long reign of the various organizations, and we're gonna look at a lot of those organizations today, you've a brief overview of other nations secret police programs talk about some cool spy shitting. And so so much more in a historical suck not for the squeamish looking into the means and methods secret police agents used to terrorize their target's turn this episode into. What may be the darkest suck we've ever done? This is like. Unit. Seven thirty one dark, if you have a thought some of the serial colors, we covered here have been brutal, and they certainly have the curative negative effect. They've had on humanity pales in comparison to the horrific acts carried out by Russian secret police so strap in for an intense and fascinating ride through the Soviet Union today on time suck. Happy Monday soccer's. Welcome inquisitive. Members of the colts curious time so time what is big deal getting real Russian today. Hail Nimrod hill is to FINA sweet temptress, and sometimes antagonist of Nimrod bojangles and triple m they're sitting this one out they just hate communism. So so much I'm Dan Kelman t who sucks on high, and you are listening to time suck recording INA suck dungeon on a lovely spring day here in quarterlane, Idaho with Queen of the suck Lindsey she's gonna be the suc- dungeon Reverend. Dr Joe motherfucking paisley produces the show, and he who does have a nickname now, Zac script keeper Flannery. Also in the building thanks game to everyone who left recent itunes ratings and reviews, keeping the stuck in the charts. Let us continue to do this and grow this every rating and review helped so much except of course, maybe the one-star reviews, they don't help as much depressingly but better than nothing better than nothing. I guess at least getting somebody to. To have a reaction. Thanks to our patriot supporters who picked out that he's topic through voting on the time Eappen website the spaces. There's always wise, but their topics elections. Those magnificent stewards of the suck got a new T shirt in the shop vice store you can easily linked to from the time. So after the website or from this episode description gotta be my favorite time. So t of two thousand nineteen thousand four in access design Ed can pretty and it's it's starkly magnificent creepy fund, maybe even save to work depending on where you work zero neck fucking is on this teacher. It's Bella try blend unisex three-quarter sleeve baseball, t it's made at a three hundred percent severed cat hints that have been stuck on a stick for no less than seventy two hours added softness and fifty percent mothers mic for just the right amount of breathe ability and two hundred and fifty percent really wrote up my samples for the motivation in ability to tackle whatever obstacles getting your spaces away. So enjoy that beauty. Hill. Nimrod had fun. San Francisco trying to tighten up some new stadium material for the happy murder tour man, Saturday shows my dad, especially but a going to be shooting a new special soon, hopefully later this year, I think I'll find this week. If we get the date that we want in the city we want so hoping I can announce that soon my agent so locking them to venue right now hoping to make it my best albums last special yet, thanks to everyone who came out, by the way in San Francisco, again, those of you who even those of you who came to the Thursday show who seemed a little bit horrified by some of the things we're coming to my mouth, San Francisco, it it can be low sensitive Saturday, though, Saturday shows my God, some of the most fun I've ever had onstage excited this week for shows that left Boston in Boston. Catching a Red Sox game in Fenway never been there very excited for that back in Spokane for another aunt he'll kid suck Sunday may nineteenth. Then onto the comedy zone. In Jacksonville, Florida may thirtieth thirty first and June first, and then I'll be in Omaha June. Seventh and eighth and thanks for all the gifts. By the way. The people brought to San Francisco so many cool things we talk about lot that stuff on the secret suck ticket of over the entire two thousand nineteen happy murder standard tour. Dan dot TV. Also, the the Ted ex video is that I did that Tex talkative is now online hope you like it talking about. Why think a lot of American people have lost a lot of faith in various institutions that have historically been trusted a lot more than they are. Now, doctors educators, scientists more why do more and more people no longer trust experts. Find out why I think that reason is if you watch that video only regret I have about my Ted talk is one word off of a, sir. Arthur Conan Doyle, quote, I tr- I memorized the whole thing wish wish out but other than that one word. I got all all all mother stats knocked him out of the park Lincoln today's yet description for that speaking of misinformation, let's dig into the KGB and be glad we don't currently live under the thumb of covert tear. In an insanely corrupts the -tarian regime, if you are stanchly against an armed populace, this suck. I dunno might change your mind, maybe when government is free to do whatever wants to his people, you know, whatever it sees fit because those loyal to the regime can can own and carry firearms. But those not cannot well tyranny often in Sousse. Before we dig into the Soviet Union. You want to make it clear that the Soviet was not the only nation Teather spy on or or roughly monitor its own citizens with the secret police force like the KGB did. I mean now by longshot, it's human nature to want to do he sings on some level. Like, I find it. Humorous Mueller outraged by the notion of spies or the government monitoring his own people. How dare they wouldn't insane invasion of privacy. How moral okay. Yeah. Moral. Yeah. Probably invasion of privacy. You bet but also practical if you're if you're Embiid dictator or a hopeful dictator, you know, you generally have two main goals take power by any means necessary. That's going to ruin go. Number two is to remain in power by any means necessary. And how do you remain in power a brutality? Nice way to start get people scared enough, and they tend to do what you tell them. Also, staying one step ahead of your enemies through intelligence, very important, who's going to try to topple your regime, who's a threat you find out who's a threat outside of your borders by some form of spy. Or surveillance, and you find out who's a threat inside of your borders through some form of secret police, there's tremendous incentive to do both. If you're trying to run to Taliban regime, like the Soviet Union was doing, and if you think that you would never engage in an activity akin to what the KGB KGB, you know, did in your own life. You may want to think again, let's use the example of opening a small business to kind of illustrate, you know, the incentive to do these type of things let's say, you you've put all your life. Savings into opening a family family pizza place in some small town. You live in you decided to open it and call it a comes on your pepperoni pizza because you have the same problematic last name than I do, and you really bad at naming businesses and come on your pepperoni pizza is not doing well, it might be the name. And then right after you've opened your now failing business another family opened their own independent pizza place across the street in the same small town. Maybe they're called. We don't come on any part of your pizza, and they're fucking crushing. It still a terrible name. But maybe a little. Better than yours line out the door for lunch every damn day as your business remains empty feels like vultures circling overheads. Now looking good for you. Do you think that maybe you might want to send one of your employees over there to see what's working out? So well for them, maybe going yelp people are saying, right? Do you think you'd gossip about ask questions around town, if you're smart business owner, and you do something eating gauge in some form of intelligence gathering get some kind of Intel, you know, you didn't essense and gauge in some form of spine may be something similar to spine. And when it comes to some form of secret police corporations do that all the time right now openly. Have you ever heard of a secret shopper companies hire people independent evaluators to pose as normal customers? And then those people after shopping somewhere and taking notes report back to two h q about how they were treated companies do this to find out how good customer services, you know, it's one known as sent to the gulag if a secret shopper get some dirt on him. But in principle, it's the same thing as the KGB, right, human re. Sources internal affairs know, there's all kinds of businesses or departments of possessed KGB esque elements. We Meese accidents fine on each other since the Donna humanity, and there have been government run organized KGB type organizations going back at least as far as the Romans the Roman empire began utilize an organized secret police force specifically dedicated to make sure it citizens weren't doing something they considered traitorous for treason us at least as far back as the second century. See prior to this empires including Rome and used utilized informers and spies or scouts together. Some form of Intel about rivals outside of its their walls and sometimes inside on second century. See though, emperor Hadrian gave a, you know, a group of intelligence officer's name and uniforms. The fromm and Tari the freemen Tori were tasked with protecting the Roman empire from insidious forces within its borders through entirely operated out of their headquarters in Costra pedigree. Was translates to camp with strangers which sounds like a place right out of game of thrones. Right sound like somebody competing for the iron throne Castro. Pair Grena was a military barracks. Located on Kalian hill probably saying that one around seven or famous seven hills in this order started out his grain suppliers to the imperial army before eventually evolving into the empire's own secret. Police force hated by pretty much everyone in Rome other than the emperor and other members of the fromm and Tari this force persecuted Christians assassinated political opponents deemed by the emperor to be a threat. They trumped up variety of false charges to punish whoever they felt needed to the needed to punish in in order to keep the empire in order eventually pressured by Rome's people emperor Diocletian disbanded the from Atari in the early third century, CE frontier, we're also proud of their status within or so proud of their status within the within Rome. They had their rank and emblem positioned on a prominent place on their own gravestones. And here's a little of what was written about this order by a Roman historian in the fourth century. See who said Hadrian's vigilance was not confined to his own household extended to those friends by any and by means of his private agents from taro's he even pride into all their secrets, and so skillfully that they were never aware that the emperor was acquainted with their private lives until he revealed himself in this connection. The insertion of an incident will not be unwelcome showing that he found out much about his friends the wife of a certain man wrote to her husband complaining that he was so preoccupied by pleasures and bass that he would not return home to her and Hadrian found this out through his private agents. And so when the husband asked for a furlough Hadrian reproached him with his fondness for baths, and his pleasures whereupon the man exclaimed, what did my wife write? You just what she wrote to me now, bro Zeus told me God's themselves. We're behalf to to watch every move every player my empire Hadrian sees and knows all JK my spies when reading your letters. The Ming dynasty also had its own secret. Police back in the fourteenth century, the Geno way or the embroidered uniform guard served under the Ming dynasty for over two hundred fifty years in imperial, China and apologies if I'm Butch and their name some words much easier to find pronouncing pronunciation guides on than others. They were founded by the Hong hyung-woo emperor zoo want shang- in thirteen sixty eight c and the evolvement emperors bodyguards to become his eyes and ears around the entire empire. The role was simply to keep the emperor on the throne by nullifying and eliminating if necessary political opponents, and they located his opponents by brutal via brutal, torture and interrogation. They're authorized to overrule judicial proceedings and prosecuting those deemed as enemies of the state granted with full autonomy to arrest interrogate detain without trial and punish whoever they saw fit. However, they saw fit without going to any kind of due process. The height of their powers the emperor had roughly fourteen. Thousand away working on his behalf in thirteen ninety three the emperor worry that one of his generals lawn. You was plotting against him. And the way ended up apprehending and executing roughly forty thousand people on what later appear to be far less incredible intelligence as a result of some understandably it angry PO people in the public a little bit public backlash the emperor reduced the number of genera in scaled back their ruthless village vigilance, and then they were disbanded entirely in the Ming dynasty was overthrown in sixteen forty four. Couple of other countries. Other nations historically have had secret police long before the KGB would operate in the Soviet Union long before the communist party known as the Bolsheviks overthrew the Russians ours early in the twentieth century Russia also had secret police czar Ivan the terrible, hopefully, future sucks object. Senti? Oh, preach, preach, Nikki out to terrify his citizens and keep them under control between fifteen sixty five and fifteen seventy two this antagonistic secret. Police force ran around the Russian countryside, terrifies terrifying. Peasants in their monk like robes, the displayed an emblem of a sever dogs head with the broom for real severed dog's head and a broom kind of weird logo. Not sure how they came up with that logo. I don't I don't feel like a lot of thought went into it feels like a rough draft. Right. It should have been may be edited or replaced real quick meeting. His daughter, right. We'll should we put on robes. Yes. Yes. Alexei. I like dogs. Dogs. That is good Alexi as good could anyone draw dog? Yes. Vladimir I can draw dogs head. Okay. All right dogs hated these. Can anyone here draw anything else? Anything adult? This is surgery. I can draw. Broom. Okay. I pretty sure everyone here can draw. Boom, boom. Whatever I I even toddlers and blind kinder- brooms, did basically what longline with few extra lines on top of individual nine. But I find whatever Bruma dis dog head in Broome the logo. No important important thing is torture important thing is to execute for no reason now that this grab a bowl of cold beet soup and stale Rockford bread to celebrate. The approach Niki or fucking ruthless. They love torture, apparently, one of their favorite torture torture methods was to boil citizens alive. Sweet Jesus they boiled people and not just peasants they boil the boy ours, the Russian aristocrats, and they take their land and property that'll teach them for maybe not being loyal enough to Ivan the terrible who smoking little now, you still being dug at broomstick Biggs funny. Pasha little hard to Smark when you'll being boiled alive. Yes. I have joke. You what did stupid boy out or say to appease Niki while he's being boiled alive? Okay. Let's now. Yes BUSTER, that's what he's screaming agony. He begged for in the pain. You know? The priest Niki would also roast people over an open fire on a spit like fucking rotisserie chicken never short on brutality the Russians. The Niki would also occasionally killing mass and one particularly horrific massacre in knob Garad, the Oprah's sneaky murdered up to thirty thousand Russian citizens effectively destroying the city, the Niki were so brutal and quickly became so feared and hated generated so much public backlash that fearing widespread revolts Ivan the terrible did abolish them in fifteen seventy two to seven years after creating them. He outlawed the name from ever even been spoken again. That's when you know, your member of a particularly awful organization when a man who become known to history as Ivan the terrible is like, okay, you guys too much. All right. You guys are a little little over the top. Let's scaleback the KGB were also on the first group in the Soviet Union. Elsewhere to operate as an organization of spies gathering. Foreign intelligence as I'm sure you already know spies have been around forever on the fifth century BC, roughly twenty five hundred years ago book called the art of war a book, the meaning to read my entire adult life, but have not was written by an ancient Chinese military strategist known history zoo, or master, son and sons zoo advised one who knows the enemy and knows himself will not be endangered in one hundred engagements and he talked about numerous different types of spies. Ancient Egypt had spies. Ancient Hebrews you spies as well. Spies were prevalent in the Greek and Roman empires. Basically roughly every single giant empire in history has had some kind of spice the Soviet Union took their used to spies and secret police to to a level rarely if ever seen before with the KGB and his predecessors while the KGB didn't arrive on the scene until the fifties. A communist secret police agency was part of the beginning of the communist ascent to power arriving with the Bolsheviks nineteen seventeen the year that the long reign of the czars ended with nNcholas to a lot of internet. Sites, you know, of other sources well talking about the atrocities committed by the KGB or actually talking about the totality of atrocities committed by a variety of Russian secret police organizations, for example, a lot of sites. We'll talk about Stalin's KGB. When in fact, the secret police were not organized under the acronym initials. KGB technically, initially them what's going on. There's are highly intelligent editor Jesse donors point out until after the death of Stalin. So that's not a phrase you'd have been familiar with. So let's so let's get to know the KGB and his ruthless Soviet predecessors by jumping into the history of how they came to be with today's times timeline right after a quick word from one of today's sponsors. 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No boots soldier well marching down a time summertime line. On august. First nineteen fourteen Russia entered World War One when Germany declares war against them. Now, we've covered this in the World War One sock. We've covered similar. I'm about to say in the Stalin, razz Putin and even in the Chica -til. Well, there's big deal sucks. I'll just briefly recap here. Things have been going well for czar nNcholas to for quite some time and some early fans of the communist teachings of Karl Marx amongst others will use death in economic chaos. The death in economic chaos. Rush experiences in the first World War to end, the long reign of Russian czars and place themselves in power and makes shit even worse for the Russian people on March eighth nineteen seventeen International Women's Day HALE to FINA demonstrators in striking workers, many of whom are women took the streets the protest against food shortages and the war two days later, the strikes spread across a petrograd on March. Fifteenth nineteen seventeen czar nNcholas the second abdicates the throne also removes his son from succession the following day. Nicholas's brother Mikhail announces his refusal to accept. Throne of provincial government is formed to replace desirous government by late nineteen seventeen various communist factions, including Vladimir Lenin's Bolsheviks have taken over Russia and his Russia winds down its involvement in World War. One communism takes hold of the country initially people like it a lot better than they do. They like life under czars rule at least the poor peasant. People did it's a totally starving. They were now given a measly quarter pound of bread per day better just to be super hungry than actually starving. I guess, but he's all students. Yeah. Things actually much worse for them as and the new communist under Lenin wastes zero time setting up a secret police organization to help consolidate their power because they're now fighting other communist and socialist factions for the most part of for control of what would become the Soviet Union. There's also some anticommunist factions fighting as Russia falls into chaotic civil war for the next several years on December fifth nineteen seventeen checkup or the all Russian extraordinary commission such a nice name for. Such a horrible organization was established by polish aristocrat turned communist Felix days, you're niesky and of or does your does your Inskeep. Of course, he was polish only polish person could be talked into becoming a communist. When they're already interested crack on fucking believable check. It was supposed to be a temporary institution to be abolished once flat Amir Lennon in the voltage fix had Bolsheviks had consolidated their power, the original Cheka headed by Felix was empowered only to investigate counter revolutionary crimes the initial obligations of this commission were to liquidate to route to the root all of the counter revolutionary, and sabotage activities and all attempts to them in all of Russia to hand over counter revolutionaries and saboteurs do the revolutionary tribunals develop measures to combat them and relentlessly apply them in real world. Applications the commission should only conduct a preliminary investigation and short time check acquired powers of. Summary Justice, though, committee members were judge jury and excecutioner and they begin a campaign of terror against the property class and enemies of the Bolsheviks in the in the first months of its existence. Check consisted of only forty officials quickly grow to a much larger organization originally based in petrograd on February twenty third nineteen eighteen check ascent a radio telegram to also Via's with petition to immediately organize emergency commissions to combat counter, revolutionaries, sabotage and speculation if such commissions had not been yet organized February nineteen eighteen saw the creation of local extraordinary commissions by the many of them by the end of nineteen eighteen nearly four hundred committees have been formed all over Russia membership quickly soars into the tens of thousands after August thirtieth nineteen eighteen when fanny Kaplan, a member of competing socialist party shoots lead and twice with a Browning. Pistol trying to assassinate him Felix ushers in the foundation for the KGB. Sees legendary brutality at this point fifteen ton iron monument of deja, Nikki dubbed iron Felix would later be erected near the check his headquarters and the headquarters of the KGB. An iron Felix was a ruthless motherfucker Stalin who had plenty of ruthlessness in him. Love Felix later dubbed him a devout night of the proletarian. He was so passionate about communism. He would get into heated arguments. This Felix would with Lennon that would lead into actual fistfights and the rumored atrocities committed by check a read like something out of one of the saw movies if you're eating or how the queasy stomach you may need to brace yourself for what's going to be said next year, depending on Cheka committees in various cities methods of torture interrogation and murder included being skinned alive. Scalped crowned with barbed wire. Impaled crucified hanged stoned to death tied to planks and push slowly into furnaces or tanks of boiling. Water or rolled around naked in internally nail studded barrels. My God man force in a Christ like barbed wire. Crown-of-thorns on people. Can you imagine the pain literally skinny people alive at some Blad the Impaler level shit, but somebody to bear with fucking nails in it just rolling around. Check is the term for members of this organization. Reportedly also poured water naked prisoners in the winter bound streets of Russia until they became living ice statues, not making this shit up. These are human beings that they're doing this to right just meets acts. We haven't done anything other than in many cases being on the wrong end of a false accusation or having had the good fortune to own land or just not being a huge fan of communism, or they were religious, etc. Others reportedly beheaded their victims by twisting their necks until their heads could be torn off. Yup. And I thought serial killer. Ed Kemper was bed. Camper would have made a great 'chekist, right or you bullsh- Rick's mother. 'cause if you are not if you're showing kind of fancy pants landowner your head is going to end up on a stick real quick own a boiler Spitzer twist off and put our stick nominal. Fuck. Your factory on Nick. Check is also the agency to oversaw the first gulags that Lennon created in August of nineteen eighteen originally, they weren't called gulags gulag is an acronym. The roughly translates in English into main administration of corrective labor camps, the first camps were World War One prisoner of war camps. And then check it over and had them converted into concentration camps labor camps for political dissidents or anyone else Cheka felt like resting. They would quickly become an immense source of cheap. Disposable labor for the Soviets between nine thousand nine hundred and nineteen twenty one check under Lenin's guidance carries out what will become known as the red terror victim. Estimates vary all the way from ten thousand to one point three million people hard to get an exact number because the Bolsheviks weren't exactly advertising to the rest of the world. What giant pieces of shit. They were the red terror was originally justified in rationalized as he wartime campaign against counterrevolutionaries while the Bolsheviks solidified power Leon Trotsky. Bolshevik could played a major role in the Russian civil war that began in nineteen seventeen lasts until nineteen twenty two. A a man a Russian secret secret agent assassin would kill a nineteen forty on behalf a stall in with an ice axe. While he lived in exile in Mexico and criticized Alan had this to say about the red terror nineteen twenty the severity of the proletarian dictatorship in Russia. This point out here was conditioned by no less difficult circumstances than the French revolution. There was one continuous front on the north and south in the east and west besides the Russian white guard armies of coach, Jack Denikin and others. There are those attacking Soviet Russia simultaneously or intern Germans Austrians Czechoslovaks. Serves poles Ukrainians Romanians French British Americans Japanese Finns Estonians the way Indians in a country throttled by a blockade and strangled by hunger. There are conspiracies risings terrorist acts and destructions of roads and bridges. Yeah. Following were one and the toppling of the Russian monarchy the Soviet Union fell in. Chaos and check it was created in part to beat that chaos into conformity by any means necessary. They were fighting the war and a lot of fronts and those what do they call the whites? No, what was it? I just said in there, the the Russian white garments. Those by the way, where the anticommunist forces fighting within Russia, the Bolsheviks taking over the military and to keep soldiers fighting for them check. It would kidnap the families of deserting soldiers send those families to the gulag concentration camps to keep the factories running. Check agents would beat imprison or execute any striking workers on March. Sixteenth nineteen nineteen Cheka agents storm to factor in Saint Petersburg and more than nine hundred workers who went on strike were arrested and then more than two hundred of them were executed without trial. Just in the following day's also in March of nineteen nineteen the city of struck on strikers and Red Army soldiers who join them or in this in that city strikers and Red Army soldiers who joined them were loaded into barges. And then thrown by the hundreds into the Volga river. With stones around their necks anywhere from two thousand to four thousand of these people were drowned that way, some members of the white movement of the white guard again that loose coalition of kind of anticommunist forces fighting against the Bolsheviks between nineteen seventeen and nineteen Twenty-three were made an example of in the Ukraine when check agents captured them tied them to planks and slowly fed them into furnaces. And you're not just killing people when you do and shit like that you are sending a strong message to everyone else who still alive just do not fuck with us, or we will make you wish we would just only kill you be afraid be very very afraid do as we wish or you will suffer dire consequences on February six nineteen twenty two Cheka with changes name to the state political dictate or GP you and again, like the initials of they don't always match up to the words are actually the they won't because they're based on the Russian. Where's the GP would operate under that title with old friendly Felix still in charge until November fifteenth nineteen Twenty-three also nineteen twenty two the Soviet? Yeon formerly forms when the union treaty formally Jones joins Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and the trans Caucasus which divided in nineteen thirty six into Georgia Armenia and Azerbaijan into the Soviet Union. The fight for the control of the nation in the wake of the fall czars is over in the Bolsheviks have one, and then they just changed their name to basically, the communist party of Russia so union on November fifteenth nineteen Twenty-three the state political Dettori it morphs into the OBE p g you the joint state political, Detroit or. Yeah. Directorate sorry. They're also translated as the all union state political administration and the unified state political directorate this new secret police organization also run by friendly Phoenix friendly Felix until he dies of a heart attack in nineteen twenty six by the time. He died is estimated he oversaw the deaths of hundreds of thousands of perceived enemies of the state possibly in the low millions even was involved in numerous other atrocities, such as what became known as the D Kasich is eight. Of russia. The Bolshevik attempt to perform a total genocide on the Cossacks, primarily east Slavic, speaking ethnic group in the Soviet Union, early example of social engineering and the Bolsheviks on par with the Nazis, in my opinion is one of the most horrific political groups of all time rootless, cruel cold terribly misguided, people contemporaries of Felix remembered him as being a laid back pretty jovial fellow Fonda spending summers on a sailboat who children almost as much as you. Love puppies Papa Felix as he was widely known always seemed to have his pockets filled with hard candy dog traits and kind words for humanity for anyone lucky to cross his path. Yeah. Right. He was a fucking sociopath. Allan Felix died. Zieger police fell under the rule of vis Visha allow Rudolph which men's Inskeep another polish person. Of course. That's what happened hard not to hate my wife stupid polish guts when I reached shit like that. Of course, I'm kidding about postal for real though, another polish takes over mentioned ski runs the GUI until nineteen thirty four when he was thought to die of natural causes at first, however, his accessory later claimed to a poisoned him. I'm guessing by just the way these people behave that he was probably poisoned, and it's like that old saying live by secretly fucking with people die by secretly getting fucked with or something like that before he died mentioned ski oversaw operation trust among other horrible operations. This one is where the OPEC you had his agents pretend to be members of a secret anti Bolshevik group was planning to on overthrowing the communists. They would trick people into joining that group and then kill him. These people weren't just those limited Soviet Union operation trust, lured enemies of the Bolsheviks such as Boris Viktorovich. Seven Cav one of the leaders of the socialist Revolutionary Party who had fought for control of Russia in nineteen seventeen against the Bolsheviks. He was working with Sidney George Riley, aka the ace of spies a man. Ian, Fleming model his JAMES BOND. Character after the spies and work with Britain's secret intelligence service an operation trust agents, infiltrated British intelligence and lured suck seven cov back to Russia with false information. And then killed him. Good old game a spy versus spy ends with the Soviet victory. Unable twenty-fifth nineteen thirty gulag was officially established that system of labor camps officially status under that name under Stalin as you log by the OGP you order one thirty slash sixty three in accordance with sovereign com. Order to to. Dated April seven nineteen thirty. It was renamed as the gulag in November that year. Thank god. I title is just pretty pretty bureaucratically boring. The logs have by this time, roughly three hundred thousand inmates serving sentences for charges real and imagined all across the Soviet Union. One of the first big projects of the gulag. I big labor projects. One of many was the white sea canal built in twenty months started in nineteen thirty one and ending in nineteen thirty three the one hundred forty one mile long two hundred and twenty seven clown of my long canal connects lake Oneida to the white sea the force. Labor's Doug and extension of thirty miles that we've pretty difficult today with modern tools, the Soviets had these enemies of the state digging this canal with tools like pickaxes and shovels wheelbarrows needless to say two tens of thousands of these slaves to do it historians estimate between twelve thousand possibly even upwards of one hundred thousand people lost their lives building this canal. And then they most of them were just buried there in mass graves at the water would then. Over over just didn't give a shit about these people no interest in giving their remains their families. So they can have a proper burial. Nope. Just disposable labour. Men's people had done nothing but been born in the wrong ethnic or born the wrong, ethnicity or raising the wrong religion or have a different political opinion in the communists reminds me of American slavery nineteenth century. Now. This has happened in the twentieth century and Russia to make things even worse by the time. The canal was built it was already fallen apart to add to the tragedy. The white sea canal quickly became virtually useless. It was too shallow for large freight ship shape, large freight ships and largely frozen for half the year in nineteen thirty four the functions of the GP which included running the forced labor camps or gulags were transferred to the new now called the the people's commissariat, comma serious for internal affairs, aka the N K V the N K D had several leaders from the time it began nineteen thirty four until its end in nineteen forty six. Between nineteen forty one and nineteen forty six. It would restructure itself. Several times while World War Two raged on. But whatever the fluctuating initials happened to be the result was always the same spies abroad persecutions executions at home. And while these changes and reorganizations by the way, just political bullshit power being transferred from one ruthless. Upper ranking comments official who headed some governmental body to another under the whims of paranoid dictator who kept killing various underlings when he became concerned that they were out to get him. That man being former sucks subject Joseph Stalin, the N K V D with the Soviet secret. Police during the great purge which occurred from nineteen thirty six to nineteen thirty eight during the height of this purge in nineteen thirty seven and thirty eight under the leadership of Nikolai. Yes. Off anywhere from just over six hundred eighty thousand to one point two million Soviet people were purged in a number of horrific ways. Not only do the great purge aka the great terror result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Russian people over. Over a million more where estimated to have been sent to the logs more on that soon. Good really, not a fun place as safe yelp existed. Gulags would have a solid one star rating. Terrible accommodations worst customer service Stalin declared himself, not just ahead of the communist party but dictator nineteen twenty nine during Stalin's rise to power some members of the former Bolshevik party, which nineteen twenty five became known as the all union communist party began to question his authority by the mid thirty. And started to think that anyone who had questioned him on his way up. Anyone who was a former Bolshevik brother, which was really the party of Lenin. Anyone to loyal to Lenin in his eyes before he rose to power anyone who questioned him in anyway or someone who he he may you know, or he felt may question him going forward needed to be fucking purged. The first event of the great purge took place in nineteen thirty four with the assassination of Sergei Kirov. Prominent Bolshevik leader care was murdered by the communist or the communist party headquarters by a man named lineage. Nikolaev although his role is debated many speculative stolid himself ordered the murder of Kirov as Carol's death stolen, launches purged claiming that he had uncovered dangerous conspiracy of anti-stalin his communist the Decatur began killing or imprisoning. Anyone suspected of being party to center eventually limited all of the original Bolsheviks participated in the Russian revolution with him in nineteen seventeen as you know, it's been so long since we suck stolen. I forgot how much of a piece of shit. You really was killed all his former brothers in arms killed all of his fellow revolutionaries. Just to consolidate his power, right? Just for zone ego. And the N K VDI was there to help them. Do it. Every step of the way, the N K D sent three member committees into the field to decide who needed to be killed, right? Who who wasn't loyal to Stalin? The accused were tried found guilty on site and executed sometimes in a matter of minutes, evidential standards were very low a tip off by an anonymous informer was considered sufficient grounds for arrest trial and execution. Use of physical. Means of persuasion. Torture was sanctioned by a special decree of the state which opened the door to numerous abuses documented in recollections of victims. And members of the n que de itself. Carol's death led to three widely publicized trials at successfully. Wiped out most of Sahlins political rivals and critics several former high ranking communist, including live combination of Gregory Xenos, you have Nikolai Konin Alexei Reichel team a few were accused of treason the trials became known as the Moscow trials were clearly staged events. And it probably butchered a lot of their names their the accused admitted to being traitors and spies later. Historians learned the defendants agreed to those these forced confessions only after being interrogated threaten to torture. The N Gabi also carried out some ethnic purges, for example, the polish operation of the N K D And thirty seven and thirty eight was carried out to get rid of polish spies in theory. But in in reality, it was carried out to get rid of pretty much all polish people. It resulted in the execution of one hundred eleven thousand and ninety one pulse. And and I and I will say when I read that it did make me think that maybe selling wasn't quite as bad as I I thought that's the first cleansing. I can really get behind if they just would've cleansed the little harder. I could be married to a real human being right now. And again, obviously kidding the polish operation of the great purge is the largest mass murderer polish people in the history outside of actions that have occurred during a war, by the way. Russian secret. Police also loves surveillance in nineteen forty five a group of Soviet children, presented the US Basseterre to the USSR a gift card wooden plaque of the great seal of the United States as a show of friendship between the two countries with. They didn't tell the embassador was at the plaque contained a secret microphone. This little hidden. Mike was one of the very first audio surveillance devices ever created to use passive technology to transmit audio signals making it virtually undetectable time allowing it to be used for an extended period of time this bug plaque allowed the KGB listening on conversations in the American bastards office for nearly seven years wouldn't be found until his accident. Detected nineteen fifty two by British radio operator. The operator was confused when he heard conversations you Americans come from a radio channel near the embassy. The radio channel is one being used by the KGB to listen in on private conversations in one thousand nine hundred sixty N K D becomes the MGB the ministry of state security. Also on top of all this while all this is going on the Soviet Union. Also loses as many as twenty six million people in World War Two. Russia was a fucking terrible place to live for so many people and most of the twentieth century two world wars over nine million Russians died World War One a number of other smaller wars, military, conflicts, various purges, and then you have the secret police torturing and killing people left and right. Whether war is going on or not so much death. The gbi would exist as that under those initials until nineteen fifty four in nineteen Fifty-three for roughly a year. Some secret police duties would be conducted by the M V the ministry of internal affairs. More shuffling for the most part the MTV would be the precursor to the KGB after World War Two. The gbi was used to bring the newly acquired eastern bloc nations under the thumb of Soviet control the Nazis and Russians had retaliate on eastern Europe. And the latter years of World War Two as they fought off from Germany all the way up until about thirty miles from Moscow and Russia had engaged in a scorched earth policy as the retreated back to Moscow to keep military assets from falling into Hillary hands. See even more fun for people in eastern Europe as a scorched the earth and kind of set back. You know, like they obviously destroyed a lot of these kind of eastern bloc nations, and then the Soviet said a puppet governments loyal to Russia in these nations like east, Germany, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria Czechoslovakia, Romania Albania Yugoslav. Via Canada, no kidding about that. It'd be I should've slept in there too. Does he not know geography, not even fucking close senior? And the gbi helped keep these nations in line Yugoslavia while it will remain communist for quite some time would refuse to live under stones control in nineteen forty eight. But the other nations remained under Stalin MGB control for decades. When local leaders criticized mother Russia, the often paid for that criticism with their lives. All I here's an example on June sixth nineteen forty seven Bulgarian, parliamentary leader Nikola Petkov. A critic of Soviet rule was arrested in the parliament building subject to a kangaroo court show trial found guilty of espionage of espionage, some trumped up charges sense to death and hanged on September. Twenty third nineteen forty seven you stand up end up debt nineteen Fifty-three Joseph Stalin dies and everything immediately gets better in the Soviet Union. Dmitri Smirnov better known as the leader takes over the Soviet Union transforms gulags and do chain of water parks and. Laser tag centers. He makes roller skating. The officials sport the Soviet Union. Humidity has Elvis come to a national tour. He gets rid of state controlled media and late night talk shows and sitcoms immediately, flourish. He focuses less on war and more on dog parks, dog parks and mulch shops. It is the fucking best. No, it's not the best things. You get a little better though, less mass killings of Russian citizens in widespread, torture, but the secret police remain so do the gulags. Georgia Mellon Khaf, briefly kind of takes over is the kind of from your of the Soviet Union, but with less dictator like power and under his brief convoluted rule, which is too complicated to go into here in nineteen fifty four. The KGB comes to be the committee for state security Mellon, cough who'd be succeeded by Nikita Khrushchev who had ruled under the new title of first secretary of the communist party of the Soviet Union till nineteen sixty four Khrushchev denounces Stalin's purges and ruthless policies. However was the KGB under crew chef really any less ruthless than secret police predecessors, Hungary soon. Find student finds out not really the KGB still pretty ruthless in October nineteen fifty-six thousands of protesters took to the streets in Hungary, demanding more democratic political system and freedom from Soviet oppression. In response communist party officials are like fuck. Yeah. No problem. Don't worry about Bros. All you guys had to do is ask we're not that bad best luck. We ruined for you. Of course, it did not happen communist party officials appointed Imre Naya. A former premier who've been dismissed from the party for his criticisms of Stalinist policies, and as the new premier not yet tries to restore peace and acid Soviets to withdraw their troops the Soviets do. So but did not yet take shit. Too far tries to push the Hungarian revolt forward by abolishing the one party communist rule of Hungary. He also announces it, Hungary is withdrawing from the Warsaw Pact which was Soviet bloc's equivalent NATO. Soviets are not big fans on November fourth nineteen fifty-six Soviet tanks rolled into Budapest to crush once. And for all the national uprising at five twenty am not announces the invasion to the nation and a grim thirty-five. Second radio broadcast declaring our troops are fighting. The government is in place. Najah was soon captured and then executed two years later for not doing what he was fucking told. And then the Soviets put a puppet dictator into power Jagna a man flown in from Moscow who the KGB. Keeps close tabs on. Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev at pledged retreat from the solemn his policies and repression of the past but the violent actions in Budapest suggested, otherwise an estimated twenty five hundred hundred on Gary's died, two hundred thousand more fled as refugees sporadic arm, resistance strikes and mass arrests follow for months, causing substantial economic disruption, and the KGB is there for all of it making. Sure anyone who continues to privately resists rule is quickly and quietly dealt with AK executed right fall in line or death or the gulags, which is an just death. You have only a symbolic government Hungarian homeboys do as you're told when you're told or the tanks come back the KGB just like its American counterpart CIA also heavily interfered in various foreign wars assisting revolutionaries when their victory would be would put a pro Soviet regime into power, right? The KGB was heavily involved in the Cold War. We've talked about a number sucks now, you know, the CIA they're in power. 'ring? Pro American revolutionaries in the KGB's empowering pro Soviet revolutionaries as both the US and USSR setup puppet. Governments around the world both afraid that the other will become too powerful and bring their opposing ideology to their doorstep around nineteen sixty four when Yasser Arafat rose to power as the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization. The PLO he's tablets as an alliance with the KGB the KGB then began to provide secret training of the PLO's militants who are taking up arms to violently achieve Palestinian, statehood. Meanwhile, the US is back on the Israeli side of this conflict via the CIA. In addition to training, the KGB begins to ship arms to the Pilo guerrillas in spite of an embargo placed upon the Palestinian territories. The PLO also got waned airplane hijackings back in the nineteen sixties. Thanks to the KGB. Remember how we learned? The db Cooper suck how incredibly common that was people used to hijack planes all the fucking time in the sixties in nineteen sixty nine alone. The PLO performed eighty two airline airline. Line hijackings around the world. And apparently KGB agents showed them how to do it. The head of foreign intelligence for the KGB at that time. Alexander Sarkosi would claim that airplane hijacking is my own invention. And I don't know if he invented it. But he he certainly was into the KGB also financed. Another Palestinian militant group, the Popular Front for the liberation of Palestine supply nam with rocket-launchers machine-guns, a leader of the P L PF what he DOD was later revealed to be a KGB agent while Haddad was in charge of the P PF. He carried out multiple hijackings of civilian airplanes. One of those hijackings the Dawson's field hijackings of nineteen seventy provoked. What's known as Black September in Jordan ah, bloody civil war that lasted from September nineteen seventy until July of seventy one the KGB also interact with another former sucks subject the IRA. The Irish Republican Army reportedly gave a hundred machine guns automak rivals. Pistols, amunition to the official Irish Republican Army and nineteen. And seventy two the Irish paramilitary group than ushered in some of the most ruthless acts of terrorism and terrorism in the Northern Irish conflict known as the troubles. We talked about that. And the IRA suck one reason that the KGB and USSR took such interest in the IRA was because he had taken on Marxist leanings in the early seventies and had begun to at least entertain the idea of turning turning Ireland into a communist state while the CIA was fucking around in central and South America and Asia and the Middle East. So was the KGB the Cold War really was war. A war of contrasting ideologies. That got a lot of people killed. The KGB turned numerous Americans and despise to help their side of the espionage war. We'll never know. How many because I'm guessing, you know, a lot we're never caught for all we know Russian intelligence officers can still be working side the US today, actually that is happening talk about that more later. One of the most infamous American KGB operatives was John Walker. John walker? This piece of shit was a US navy specialist nicknamed smiling, John he was born July twenty eighth nineteen thirty seven in Washington. DC passed away August twentieth. Two thousand fourteen in prison in Bern North Carolina from nineteen sixty seven to nine hundred eighty five Walker shared classified military documents with the KGB is a paid informant documents is surely got a lot of people killed for almost two full decades. Dude got away with treason and made a lot of money doing. So the documents. He shared including navy code books reports on submarine and surface ship movements. Walker began his clandestine or clandestine crime spree alone obtain. Documents himself on active duty, and then he started to drag some friends and family into his dirty dealings. Which is the only reason he was eventually caught Walker Spiring included close friend, plus his brother and even his own son. He maintain the ring even after his retirement from the military. Walker Spiring was once described American officials as among the gravest security breaches in the history of the US navy growing up John's earlier's remark by his father's alcoholism. His father would lose his job and declare bankruptcy, perhaps inspired by his father shortcomings. John would work hard to make his own money from an early age quite little entrepreneur. He had a paper route so house all items door to door and would work as a movie theater. Usher at age sixteen in save enough money to buy a car. Walter ended up turning his little turning to a little crime to make some extra dough. And it led to him dropping out of his Scranton Pennsylvania high school during his junior year after gets caught and charged with attempted burglary. His only options were to either join the military or go to jail, so he joined the navy and from nineteen fifty five to nine hundred seventy six. He served as radio man on a series of both surface ships and nuclear submarines by most accounts. John had an exemplary military career. He would raise from a petty officer to a senior warrant officer and work with encryption codes and devices and was able to collect detailed information about the movements of the Soviets and US fleets while on shore leave in nineteen fifty seven he met his soon to be wife. Barbara crowley. She would eventually be the one to bring him down. Walker would make it through submarine school and later he would receive his top secret cryptographic clearance and pass the personnel reliability program a psychological evaluation to ensure that only the most reliable personnel have accessed nuclear weapons. Walker generally impressed his superiors his efficiency reports were uniformly. Excellent. And he was assigned to the blue crew of the Polaris ballistic missile submarine. Andrew Jackson and later the gold crew of the Simon of Bulevar Walker at served with some distinction onboard half a dozen vessels and was in charge of the radio shop of nuclear. Missile submarine. He was on the path to a nice little military retirement pension. But just like when he was younger and tried getting into burglary to make some extra money. He turned to crime again to make some extra Dell. Nineteen sixty seven Walker walked right into the Soviet embassy in Washington DC and offered to sell them information. He had been gathering fucking crazy, right? They didn't recruit him. It was his plan. He came up with this all on his own his arrival king is quite as a prize for the Soviets as the building was under constant FBI surveillance. The first man to meet Walker in the embassy was internal security specialist named Yaacov Lucas ethics or Luca civics. Yacov had no idea what to do with Walker and would contact a local KGB station chief Boris Sullivan or Salomon teen, the Soviets were always weary of what they called walk ins afraid that they were just going to be double agents pretending to work for the KGB. When really they were a CIA agent. You know that kind of stuff did happen all the time. However, they were they were impressed with the documents Walker brought him into took a chance Boris and John talk privately for two hours, according to sources Walker impressive station sheep by say nothing about his love for communism, which most of the phony defectors apparently emphasized Walker made it clear he didn't give a fuck about communism. He just wanted money. He was willing to sell it as country for cash Boris gave him a few thousand dollars on the spot. And then he was smuggled out of the embassy in a car Boris would later be awarded the order of the red banner some prestigious Soviet war award for recruiting Walker. He even received a promotion to deputy chief of intelligence all this because Walker ambled his way into the embassy like dumb s walkers hopes where we were. Reportedly repairs personal financial problems, which you hope it also meant his troubled marriage. The Soviets agreed to work with John, and we'll deliver several substantial payments in return for photographs and photocopied cryptographic keys, technical manuals and other material. Why did Walker do this was just about the money not entirely Walker apparently was dissatisfied with American politics? He believed that the assassination of JFK have been committed by our own government and idea myself have some shit for since I also believe the JFK's killing was very the very least condoned by the CIA if not planning carried out by them. I know Walker would later write in his memoir that his mind had changed from being an ultra conservative. John burchard supporter in the nineteen fifties to Cold War denier, he believed the US government's high around the danger of the USSR was just propaganda the farce of the Cold War and the absurd war-machine. It's fond. He commented were an ever growing pathetic joke to me so much until John Walker about the gulags we're going we're going to dive deep on the leg atrocities here again soon, and that it was no joke. I was propaganda Soviets wanted to spread communism. As far as why does they could and witted pain, misery and death would have surely followed in nineteen seventy six Walker would retire from the navy begins own private detective business where he would continue to obtain sensitive documents from fellow radioman Jerry Whitworth other contributors to treason, we're Walker's brother, Arthur who himself was retirement. New tenant commander who worked for a defense contractor and also John son, Michael who is a petty officer assigned to a nuclear aircraft carrier Walker would sometimes meet with Soviet contacts and locations outside of the US. Some place like CASA Blanca, Morocco and Vienna. After almost two decades of treasonous fuck ary. John Walker was arrested in may of nineteen ninety-five after his ex wife Barbara and one of his daughters turned him into the FBI. Yeah. When you're when your wife knows that you are a communist spy by gotta stay married or having killed if you wanna cut he was charged with passing navy secrets to the Soviets is entire Spiring was rounded up and charged John agreed to plead guilty and provided detailed account of the materially past the Soviets exchange for reduced ends for son. Michael Michael was released from prison in two thousand John received a life sentence and died in prison. His brother Arthur was also given a life sentence and two hundred and fifty thousand dollar fine. Naval radioman Whitworth did not plead guilty pleading ignorance US authorities didn't believe him and sends him to three hundred and sixty five years in prison finding four hundred ten thousand dollars. So he also, you know, he lived out the rest there's gonna live out the rest days in prison after nearly two decades the FBI was finally able to end the biggest espionage leak in US history. And I gotta say stories like that one. You make me feel a little more sympathetic to nineteen fifties. Mccarthyism which we talked about the Maryland, Orosa and other episodes, right? No wonder there was a red scare going on in America after World War Two and politicians were obsessed with communist possibly being amongst us. They're really worked communist amongst. And while I do believe in the freedom to have whatever political notions. You want to in this country. Also, really really have no interest never living in a communist society. I never happens in this country. I am gonna bounce defunct out. The first opportunity KGB was doing all sorts of spy shit. They had secret agents hidden all over the world that hidden gadget setup all over the place during in most spy gadgets, by the way, just for some type of camera or or listening device during the Cold War. The KGB became very good at bugging buildings and listening in on conversations. They once bug an entire floor of a hotel with audio surveillance microphones for twenty years in the early nineteen seventies tourism began to flourish in the Soviet satellite country of Estonia, the USSR saw this as an opportunity to bring money into the struggling economy of Estonia and the KGB sought as an opportunity to spy on capitalist foreigners in nineteen seventy two the KGB took over the entire top floor of hotel, veru Estonia and wired. Most of the hotel was sophisticated audio surveillance devices, though, tell was an area that was frequently travelled by international businessman, sixty rooms in the hotel were permanently wired with. Secret, microphones other rooms can be bugged at a moment's notice on the outside hotel veru appeared to have twenty two floors in truth that a secret twenty third floor which housed KGB agents. And the technology that they use to spy all the guests at the hotel the KGB worked out of that hidden top floor for two decades until the collapse of the Soviet Union. Put an end to the surveillance operation in nineteen Ninety-one. Imagine all the shit, those KGB agents had heard so much hotel sex so much jerk enough so much house like to be the guy listening in on those conversations, or, you know, those just moments some lonely businessman, just you know, fan away before he falls asleep. There had been regular guests that they had inside jokes about all it looked like lotion Larrea check in again for week. What you call him lotion. Larry the me through a new guy want to know why he called lows and Larry. Larry with more lotion on cock in one night. And then wife put on hold body in one year man must have smoothest cock with healthiest skin and all of us. Don't you? Okay. Let's take a break from spice stuff to talk about inhumane, torture, and widespread. Fear and death in nineteen Seventy-three. A now infamous book called the Gulag Archipelago was published the Gulag Archipelago three volume non fictional nightmare. Text written between nineteen fifty eight and nineteen sixty eight by Russian writer and historian Alexander soul Geneva sin. It was first published in nineteen Seventy-three followed by an English. Translation, the following year covers life into gulags through a narrative constructed from various sources, including reports interviews statements diaries, legal documents and so Solzhenitsyn's own experience. Gulag prisoner. Is it true? Probably Natalia restless device fucking whatever. The tall. You bullshit name. His first wife would later denounce it right in her memoirs that the Gulag Archipelago was based on by that name. Somebody goes to the names. Right. You fucking ever. See the. Anyone who's like, oh, it's so easy to tell. These names say bunch of them quickly out loud. Not just in your head. Don't just read them say allowed to a friend a series of Russian names, if you're not rushing or speak Russian see good you do. These names are unbelievable or E S H E T V S K A Y wrestle tough Stoskopf cod. Ski K. I. Nonsense. That's why people Americanized names when it came over to the and the boats because everybody's so pissed about that. Oh, it's so fucked up they would America is people's names. It wasn't that of ego. It was because none of us over here could fucking say any of this shit. Right. Do you wanna have the rest of your life? Be reservations of we're gonna have a party of three four got got dammit party of three for us cut his concert, classy dot com. Or do you want to be like party of three for dealer or Anderson? Right. I can make it easy. His first wife this first wife would denounce his Gulag Archipelago. He would say that she would say that it was just based on campfire folklore wasn't objective facts. She said she was perplexed at the western media accepted. This book is a solemn ultimate truth saying significance overestimated in wrongly appraised. Why did he say that though? Well, British intelligence agents would later claim that her memoirs were all part of a KGB propaganda campaign that she didn't just write this, you know, on our own it was orchestrated by Soviet leader Yuri and in nineteen seventy four to discredit Seoul. Fucking whatever souls a niece in. And maybe you'll think that gulags weren't that bad after all, you know, just just please do not take silly book for serious Alexander joke. Gulags more like summer cups than really anything else arts crafts sporting games row boats. Come song is too much fun gulags so much fun. The the real crime should be being able to spend summer company. Black crime should be having time of life gulag holding hands with beautiful young Russians singing songs popular, Google gulag songs like this is your good eighties much fun place from water polo to who who the fun goon. We go skin deep no-one say mean words, everyone each tram fish? I it it kind of kind of. No it wasn't. It was fucking terrible. Let's look at some of what the Arctic archipelago described in nineteen Seventy-three. Alexander said the prisoners were literally worked to death all of the time. Many were white collar professionals who suddenly found themselves doing hard labor for the first time in their lives. You know, how much how much is terrible wonder your doctor who just didn't love communism quite as much as you should or maybe had the wrong ethnicity. And then the next day you're digging a canal for sixteen hours a day with the fucking shovel and not given enough food to make the rest of the year. Many if not most of the gulag prisoners were not guilty of any actual crimes during the reign of Stalin. Gulag camps would increase in population considerably the grueling labor prisoners endured was often based on their locations like gulag was in a fourth area. They'd have to cut trees down if it was near a mine. Former teachers and writers and artists would become minors. If it was near a beach like near like, a resort that would be that would be okay prisoners would end up being forced to become like lifeguards poolside. Bartenders masseuses. Yeah. Right. I think the Soviets had beach resorts right beaches on four mass graves like all Russian land. There was no safety standards for these workers, no human resources departments to complain to they weren't given proper clothing or quit. In many cases. They were forced to do manual labor and rags in the midst of freezing winters died from exhaustion from the cold. Frequently starvation was a com- common problem, especially during periods of war. Rations would be sent to the frontlines and gulag prisoners will be left with almost nothing. They were fed their pica or rations based on how much work they're able to do since even the hardest working inmates were barely given enough food to keep moving the weakest prisoners didn't fare well at all and often starved the Shalamanov. A former inmate survive the system for twenty years over twenty years because he was apparently a tough son of a bitch described the hunger like this in Colima tales a series of short stories. He wrote each time. They brought in the soup. It made us all want to cry. We were ready to cry for fear that the soup. Would be thin and when a miracle occurred and the soup was thick. We couldn't believe it an aid is slowly as possible. But even with thick soup in a warm stomach there remained, a sucking pain. We just been hungry for too long. Keith keeps magin that thing about like what we complain about this country. Like, even if you're you're not making much money at all odds, are you can get as much Taco Bell as you'd like right in like, we make fun of that. And that's kind of like fucking Taco Bell. All right. How far the bathroom? These guys would have literally killed for data. They would have fucking killed of close family member. If they were given a week's worth of Mexican pizza, or you know, she'll lupus, it's just I can't even imagine like being so hungry that you're crying hoping that your shitty. Fucking soup will be thick. God that is so much sadness. I hope soup thick for me. High heel for thick soup. If one piece of bacon could be in soup. I kill whole family to eat that. Prisoners on the brink instauration refute referred to his dog, a the guys what are goners Russian secret police guards. And officials who ran the gulags well aware of this one AK VDI chief explained it this way nineteen thirty eight saying among the prisoners there are some so ragged in lice ridden that they pose a sanitary danger to the rest. These prisoners have deteriorated to the point of losing any resemblance to a human being lacking food. They collect garbage and according to some prisoners, eat rats and dogs. My God the gulag system was at the height of its scope and brutality understo-. Installing didn't see gulag prisoners as people they were just disposable cogs in the Soviet progress machine prisoners were call zits a slang term for someone considered completely lacking. In value food was so scarce installers gulags that became a catalyst for violence prisoners hoard, basic good like tobacco, so needles clothing. And of course, food creating a deadly strict inmate hierarchy people were murdered over eating utensils shoes. And of course, rations the Soviets and weaponized food itself a tomato gulags even worse. These status running these camps would introduce actual violent criminals in the prisoner mix. I mean, it is right. What do you think? It can't get worse. Like, oh, then they also made made it this much worse. The Soviets would put violent criminals in with the regular population to do the bidding of the state and just terrorize prisoners further these hardened criminals setup prison gangs found themselves at the top of the prison kind of like hierarchy including getting the most food. These criminal gangs would distinguish themselves with tattoos. Do a little Google search of Russian prison tattoos. If you want to see pictures of some of these scariest, motherfuckers alive hard looking dudes women. Arguably had it worse in the gulags survive. Their imprisonment women also have to would often have to partner with a camp husband, and or perform constant sexual favors with guards for better treatment women were subjected to the same grueling physical abors men the same meager rations. And then additionally a lot of sexual assault to get an even better look into life into gulags before we jump back into the rest of the time line since we're already kind of deep dive in on a right now. I wanna talk about another book technically graphic novel called drawings from gulag by Dan's big Baldy of a retired Soviet prison guard Dansk board in nineteen twenty five worked for decades into gulag starting nineteen forty eight. He died in two thousand five and in two thousand ten collection of hundreds of his drawings are sorry over one hundred of his drawings, documenting gulag atrocities was published some historians don't consider Dan's ex. Joins to be historically. The most factual source or what happened, but he did work in the system based everything based on everything I've read about gulags, I wouldn't be surprised if everything he documented did. In fact, happen Dan's eggs, nets or vignettes use me captured all sides of the atrocities committed yesterday one hundred and thirty images with captions describing the scene. Some sketches are based on what he saw some based on what prisoners told him happen before he worked in the gulag system supposedly wants the KGB found out what he was doing. Not only do they not reprimand him. They actually supported his documentary gulag lie for whatever reason as well. He claimed anyway, you really have to see them to get the whole story, but I'm gonna try describe them a bit for you. I, and I know we've already spoke of a particularly grotesque events, but this next section is going to be especially dense with graphic descriptions of horrific, torture and sexual sadism. So I feel like it warrants a segment we haven't thrown in an episode in a while super scary stuff, which we will jump right into after a word from today's final spot. Better time suck is brought to you today by the great courses. Plus, whether it's in a problem at work or exchanging trivia with friends having the right answer is so satisfying. We all know stuff. The great courses blesses a great way to up your trivia game. It's a price a source of knowledge and just about any field. The streaming service offers thousands of lectures to explore on a variety or a wide variety of topics. Learn about anything from ancient Egypt to customs of the world and painting and gardening. The top was presented in-depth by ward winning professors and experts with unique perspectives. You know, you've never even thought about, you know, so you can always be the one with all the answers hail Nimrod. You wanna learn some more about some KGB stuff on about some more spies? Listen to lecture twenty one the spies have it from the forensic history. Crimes frauds? And scandals course, this particular lecture talks about Robert Hanssen, an F B I mole who was working for the KGB. That's right. The KGB infiltrated the FBI he is currently serving fifteen consecutive life sentences. At eighty x Florence a federal supermax prison near Florence Colorado Hanson worked with the KGB started in one thousand nine five and continued right up until the agency collapsed and ninety one. And then when the F SB got going and picked up he picked up right where he left off with the KGB. We'll talk about the F S B A later Hansen among other treasonous acts revealed a multimillion dollar eavesdropping tunnel built by the FBI under the Soviet embassy in Washington DC spy versus spy stuff continues. He was arrested in two thousand one. Learn lots more about distort, and so many others with the great courses. Plus, so no, the right answers and start learning with the courses plus today. For a limited time, you can get forty days for free. That's forty days of unlimited access to their entire fascinated library to get this special offer sign up at the great courses plus dot com slash time. Sunk start enjoying forty days for free only at the great courses, plus dot com slash time. Suck Lincoln the episode description button Lincoln the time app and on the time suck website now. We can get into some super scary stuff. Some of the danza drawings folks on the horrific treatment of female prisoners. Any enemy women and girls were often stripped naked during interrogation in one of the drawings. The caption reads women enemies of the people were inspected naked before being sent to certain labor, those who agreed to become sex slaves. Sex slaves of the administration were assigned to ease. Your work. Others were sent for logging and other heavy labor or put into cells and torture with hunger. Another gruesome cartoon says women were put into thug cells where they were brutally humiliated in gang-raped afterwards. Most of the victims committed suicide hang themselves cut their veins, eight soil at cetera. And I have no idea for showed. He means by eight soil, but I'm guessing literally like eating dirt. What a terrible way to offer yourself. I did look into a little further. And apparently some people have committed suicide over, you know, in history in that way. My God literally eating dirt until I guess, you choke yourself out. I can't imagine how much pain. Hopelessness one has to be drowning in to eat dirt in an attempt to kill themselves to gulags were hell on earth. Another one of the drawings, excuse me, depicts, more rape. And the captain reveals how female prisoners had no one to complain to or at least no one who would actually help them. It says some perverts from the N K V loved to do this with young women, and especially girls from enemies and enemy family members. Neither oral or written complaints have been reviewed by fficials, honest and principles state attorney staff. Members were exterminated the N K D V D had unlimited right to take away any citizens life while state attorney office became a puppet accomplice of the N K V D with no own rights sexual slavery was common in the gulags. One of the drawings. Reads prison guards are selling live goods to thugs during the transportation women from Germany Poland and Baltic states were valued, especially and gang raped. Some kingpins had a property of two to three such women. Another one of Dan's, caption speech to the. Scope with his treatment saying with hunger disease, and slave labor. Millions of enemy and Kulik women were murdered, by communists, and all this talk. A apparently really pisses off one of our characters here on the suck. I can actually hear him kind of approaching former Houston Pam of young male prostitutes who has somehow transformed into kind of a feminist opponent of certain sexual work in sex trafficking, chicken, Joe would like to say something to you. All. Bob, Bob, labor, bought by Jaden joke enroll everybody knows some strongest actual flow chicken, Joe is a man with pimping on his resume, even he's against Gouda accessible slavery chicken Joe Montana solo some asks for cash, but he never treated chickens won't have peace. The trash someday Joe might pay for all the pinball. Joe is done but still a chance to redemption for my final set into the sun knows those chance Gula gangs and guards the skin sins. They committed to souls to Scott harp that was taking Joe speak for even a hardened. Former pamphlet himself is shocked by the sexually violent acts perpetrated by the Soviet secret place, the gulags and he thinks they're heinous deeds are actually unforgivable and yes chicken Joe does talk about himself in the third person time. And yes, chicken Joe is apparently retired. At least from the moment for from pimping the one time campus is because more of again, a human sexual rights activists now. And I know she just got weird for you new listener. But some of us some of us love getting weird most of us here. Love getting weird. Okay. Now, we're back to the topic. Today. Many of Dan's eggs, drawings revealed specific methods of torture in one image. There was a man being held down by guards on a table. The caption reads a prisoner who went on hunger hunger strike is being forcefully forcibly forcefully every oh fed through his nostril, according to laws of Soviet humanism. Only those who had a normal body temperature could be shot. Not totally clear what it means by this exactly to me. It sounds like some prisoners were fed to strengthen them up. Just so they could be executed. How insane is that? Another image features a very bloody man on the floor being stepped on his neck as being step down. And see these kick in the balls. It reads, I am English French American Japanese Italian German and other spy, so they treat us FIS against another drawings of a Russian guard pissing on a tied up, man. Who's being held down by another guard? The victim looks like he also has a severed penis or possibly fecal matter in his mouth it reads sprinkling with holy water for a better afterlife. I'll give him snow. No so bowls won't walk into him too. Soon. Dan, z maybe not so great with the captions or maybe just the translation gets a little weird. Maybe maybe maybe some sort of Russian gallows humor is being lost on me with some of these just sprinkle holy water opponents man and by sprinkle holy water. I mean cut off and show in mouse, you get if. I guess jokes nuts. Translate will. Danza described so many diabolically creative forms of torture through the council survivors in guards, the N K VDI used pumps, soldiering irons. Electrocution stabbing. And hanging to reprimand prisoners bottles were shoved into vaginas and ENA says the people who misbehaved red hot crowbars were also said to be shoved into people's orifices. There are also in. This is going to be real bad as if that stuff wasn't registered. There's also accounts of live rats being placed into a heated bucket under a poor son of a bitches anus to force the rat inside of his butthole to do whatever Iraq does and that situation, which I can only imagine has to be extremely unpleasant. I mean, do you have any other thought when a rat starts to push inside of you other the no, no, no, no. No. No. No. No. No. No, no. I don't think you do. I don't think you have any thoughts. I I this might not be so bad. I'm gonna give a chance or okay. Just relax and enjoy it or a perfect. This is exactly how I wanted to go out. Dancing. Also dogs draws images of various executions somewhat. You're done by beheading many of these were decided not by the guards. But by the court of thieves, those vicious Russian prison gangs who decided to how to torture and who to torture oftentimes one images of a guy having a burn poker showed up his ass by the guards the caption reads after we'll fuck the scoundrels ass. He'll be quick to remember how to make sabotage against Soviet regime party and university with his Cybernetics. Again, kind of strange translation, sometimes the cold Russian winter weather was used to help torture prisoners one images of guard sprain. Down the prison. Water outside says new arrivals who are waiting in so-called septic. We're watered with fire hose from guard tower while the outdoor temperature was negative thirty negative forty at for several hours of more waiting covered with ice. They were finding that inside. When the administration wanted to imagine a lot of died. Another caption reads with the most brutal and horrible. Medieval tortures, the N K D was beating out of innocence completely absurd. Confessions like spine for capitalist and trotted died some made up country name. Most of the officers were just sadist that were highly valued because you know, the capability to fight against the enemy. A feud. Danza drawings were about the origins of the gulags one caption reads during initial construction of the gulag political prisoners often were embarked in the middle of nowhere and order to build the prison camp right on the spot. They did. So with the daytime. Sleeping in the pits. They dug at night hardly a quarter of those people manage to survive until spring the call these pits wolf pits. And sometimes after completion of job workers would just be executed in mass and tossed into the pit, and then, you know, covered up one of Dan's eggs, drawing says such mass murders had begun in nineteen twenty s in s U S L O N Soviets special camps command the predecessor of gulag intelligentsia, always wasn't enemy of the Stalin's. Irst of Stalinism. Sorry. It's such fucking weird. Broken grammar? It's hard to read during nine hundred thirty s groups of enemies deceitfully forced to go to middle of will wild step or tundra where shot with machine guns survivors finished on spot. Sometimes children were taken to the gulags and many were born their kids. Born raised from an early age gulags often stunted physically mentally dancing explains that like this sane because of overpopulation especial orphanages for traitors to the motherland enemy children were execute. It'd in many railroad stations centralization cell of bam prison camps. It was considered that after reaching the age of majority. They would become threat to existing system. Another drawing talks about the process of interrogating children. The N caved supported interrogation of parents by their own children actually says relation of parents by their own children collaborators were praised like heroes. But some of them were forced to cooperate through beatings in the entire country. There were a campaign of public parent. Pronunciations children were forced to give public confessions for the mass media and condemn spies on meetings, some teachers forced pupil to write essays like what do you think about arrest of Marshall's and others? After giving such essays many people's deprived of parents and sent to special orphanage camps. According to Dan's drawings guards rewarded for their cruelty. In one picture of the caption says interrogated enemies were standing at their feet for days without rest, food water and sleep suffering feet swelling when victims were falling down unconscious. They were beaten forced to stand again for their efforts guard butchers were awarded and honorably retired at ages fifty to sixty and the tales of terrorists keep coming in common to avoid digging graves in the permafrost, the VDI would supposedly drown inmates in river ice holes and just let them sync when they had to dig some graves and the frozen lands. They would use dynamite explosions to make mass graves, and then, of course, Philemon Soviets. No secret police Gulick guards couldn't have cared less about the average Russian Russian person or door humanity in general, they completely dehumanize. These people just like the, Nazis, completely dehumanized Jewish people. And I keep thinking of the Nazi holocaust read about the gulags. It feels as though. This was a holocaust just went on for decades. Dandy explains various methods gulag interrogators used to gather information for prisoners a commentors from was to cut off oxygen dancing reports like this during interrogation special goons called hammers and axes as well. As investigators themselves often were wrapping victims heads with rubber bags after few times. Victims suffered mouth nose ear bleeding Cullimore. Then we're done with this shit. The next one requires some especially sadistic misogynistic prison guards one of Dan's ex. Caption reads, young women that refuse to have sex with gulag butchers were thrown to ant hills or tied to trees for ants and mosquitoes to let ants eat the victim from the inside. Sometimes a pipe made of Birch bark or hollow stem was inserted into Jonah and legs. Tied spread often female thugs were helping butchers to do this. Can you ever come back to being a decent meets AC a decent human being after you've done something that shitty like in the human soul, ever recover from? Going to a place that dark did anyone ever go from being like that prison guard to somebody who, you know, helped elderly women cross the street. Sadly, I bet some did it is a Megan how well the human mind can part compartmentalized just atrocious behavior reminds me of Chiquillo stabbing a raping young girls and coming home to being love and father, and grandfather, I hope hearing about behavior like this is always somewhat shocking to me man, we can be so cruel to each other. Lot of the torture was based on humiliation as much as it was pain Dansk rights for humiliation. This intelligence intelligence Yemen. So some spies Moseley was chained provided with a Pravda newspaper enforced forced to defecate in his own bowl. And then one can assume he was forced to literally eat his own shit. Dante describes the gulag meals that didn't consist of one's own shit here saying bowl of slum Guliani and three hundred grams of bread were all the man could hope after working entire day outside in cold trying to get a fake society prisoners, boiled, bread, and salt and water swelling tag on foot and prison graveyard with the result. The inmates were saying gulag was worse than Nazi concentration camp in the last. Rhino mentioned here today, Danny goes into detail about the severity of prisoners starvation. Saying having no possibility to stock up on food and distant northern camps getaway. Thugs often were taking inexperience inmates with them to kill and eat in prison slang such victims were called Cavs like like a like a baby cow even the proximate number of eaten. Cavs is unknown. Again. Oh my God. I don't know. Exactly. We're talking about with getaway thugs, but I do understand what he's saying here. When when people were just literally, you know, putting the gulags almost to be eaten all of these atrocities, many others were committed by the Soviet secret police, and that is plenty for today's super scary stuff. Okay. Then we're all now very painfully aware of how exactly terrible gulags were. And they were you know, the Russians e-group leases main instrument of punishment for dealing with internal dissension. Now. Let's talk about what they're doing abroad, you know, during the jump into the mid seventy s talk about some more spice stuff. This time was talking about a KGB agent who worked in the US Soviet spies regularly embedded themselves all throughout US culture. Believe that they still do on numerous KB KGB agents have infiltrated the CIA FBI, NASA, other important government agencies stolen, billions of dollars worth of important technological and military information. One KGB spy that the American authorities. Eventually did discover was a man known to the west is Jack barsky, Jack's real name was Albert Dietrich born Germany and based on him being caught and confessing into how he snuck into America. We're able to get a little bit of insight into how the KGB trained spies because of him Dietrich started down the road espionage in the mid nineteen seventy s he was on track. Become a chemistry professor at an east German university. But his talent and intelligence caught the eye of KGB recruits, and he was sent to Moscow to be taught to behave like an American. It's not you've got to turn the KGB down when they recruited you now. Without a good chance. You in die soon after he was sent to the US this idiotic adventure. As he now calls it had a lot of appeal to an arrogant young man, a smart young man pumped up by the idea of traveling around the world and living above the law. So this particular guy, you know, he was kind of excited I recruited I was sent the United States to establish myself as a citizen and then make contact the extent possible to highest levels. Possible of decision makers, particularly political decision-makers Jack wrote Dietrich was twenty nine at the time. I was sent to New York in the fall of nineteen Seventy-eight posing as a Canadian nationalist because no one suspects Canadian, I guess right called William Dyson upon reaching the states the fictional. William Dyson vanish into thin air only to reemerge. Jack barsky Jack arrive with nearly flawless with the nearly flawless American accent high confidence in ten thousand dollars cash in his pocket. According to Dietrich memoir, deep undercover the name. Jack barsky was taken from a real person named Jack barsky who died in nineteen. Fifty five JJ ten this fake name had no work educational history. Not even a social security number then decree Detroit had to come up with plausible excuses for all that to explain his lack of a background. He told people he had tough start in life talk to me about how he had to drop out of high school in New Jersey said that he then worked for years on a remote farm until he decided to give it another chance move back to New York City. He was able to use the story to get a job delivering parcels to the New York leat as a bike riding delivery boy, Manhattan. And while he was doing this he continually updated Moscow on his progress in weekly radio transmissions letters written in code, and he would deposit microfilm drop sites. All of New York. He was also given fake passports to help facilitate trust back to Moscow every two years for debriefings during his trips he would line link back up with his German wife a day and his young son of Matthias who had no idea why dad was going away for two years at a time. They were told who's doing top secret. But very well. Paid work in Kazakhstan Dietrich was tasked with profiling potential American KGB recruits putting together accounts of the mood of the US during US versus USSR events. Like, the downing of Korean airlines flight by a Soviet fighter hundred nineteen Eighty-three. He also pass along a treasure trove of stolen software to the Russians over the years. Eventually like a lot of other undercover agents Dietrich started to rethink what he'd been taught about the US started thinking, we were all evil capitalist monsters realize that the communist party line that the west was an evil system on the brink of economic and social collapse was bullshit. A man name the silly Nikita each meter skin of eventually discovered the true identity of Jack barsky. The silly was a KGB defector who left Russia with a treasure trove of Soviet secrets including Jack's true identity. He informed the FBI, and then the F B I watched Jack closely for three years to make sure he was in fact in KGB agent. They even bought the house next door to his house to monitor him and bugged shit out of Jack. House and reading stuff like that makes me wonder if my own house or offices bugged right or or if yours is I mean, it's possible. I think it'd be foolish to think that these surveillance methods aren't used anymore. I mean, who cares it? They're technically illegal them. Should there were technically illegal then and still employed in the interest of national security, the FBI eventually apprehended Jack after they heard the following argument with his wife Penelope, by the way. This is what I did. Yes. He did eventually get American wife, by the way, this is what I did. I am a German. I used to work for the KGB, and they told me to come home, and I stayed here with you. And it was quite dangerous for me. That is what I sacrificed then the FBI swooped in and arrested him, but Jack was lucky in our research says he passed lie detector tests, and then was released and not put on trial. I bet he wasn't put on trial because he made a deal, and because it would make American intelligence look bad took them so long to find him price. Kind of don't prosecute me. I'll tell you what kinds of inside shit about the Soviets type of deal not only to the FBI not charged with anything. They also helped him become a. Citizen, the US. He still is in the US today. He is sixty nine years old right now lives in Atlanta with his third wife Shawna and their daughter trinity funny twist to the story, the FBI agent who posed a Dietrich neighbor and interrogated him after he was detained ended up being such a close friend that he is Trinity's. Godfather. I love that man. Let's bounce with tonight's eighty five. Now to talk about an American CIA agent. The KGB was able to flip Aldrich Ames Aldridge. Hayes Ames was born in Wisconsin on may twenty six nineteen forty one the son of a CIA analyst a well educated. Man, Aldridge attended the Chicago for two years later. Get a degree from George Washington University in nineteen sixty seven aims became a CIA trainee while in school in nineteen sixty two would go on to recruit US spies among Soviet nationalists. While he was posted in and guard Turkey from nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy-two. He would live the United States until nineteen Eighty-one. Then when he was then sent to Mexico City there he met his second wife Colombian named Maria del Rosario CASA Di plea he recruited his future wife to work for the CIA. They married in nineteen ninety five while he was based at CIA headquarters in Washington DC. And then he will be posted a Rome from nineteen eighty six nine seventy nine and then in nineteen ninety-five assisted by his wife Ames began selling American intelligence secrets to. The soviets. He retired from the CIA, but was still able to get his hands on some of the most sensitive information at least ten CIA agents working undercover in the USSR were executed as a result of Aldridge's information. How insane is that shit, man. This guy sold out, you know, his country and got at least ten of his former colleagues killed like, I know all worked with people. We might fantasize about having killed. You know, Reverend Dr Joe, but this son of a bitch basically did that by the end aims had revealed. The name of every US agent operate in the Soviet Union for their services, the Russians paid Aldridge and his wife. Rhea over two point seven million. They were finally arrested nineteen Ninety-four. This was the most money the Soviets had paid to America or to an American for spine that we know of Aldridge's unexplainable increase in wells is actually what put him on the FBI's investigatory radar after his arrest in February twenty nine hundred four by the F B I in Arlington Virginia Aldridge was convicted of espionage, given a life sentence. He'd worked for the CIA for thirty one years and then worked for the Russians for almost a decade Maria aims has given a five-year cents for tax evasion. And conspiracy to commit espionage, the nineteen ninety eight film Aldridge aims traitor within tells more of their story if you wanna watch it. I have not seen it. But wanted to pass that along a one more KGB related spy Taylor. Let's move to nine hundred ninety hundred nineteen Eighty-eight. I'm talking about Alexander Litvinenko Alexander joined the KGB and nine hundred ninety eight worked as a spy until the Soviet Union. Dissolved he continued his career by fighting terrorism and organized crime in Chechnya as a member of the most secret division of the Russian federal security service or the F the FSBA is the Russian secret police agency that still exists today. One of them in nineteen ninety eight Alexander's live started to fall apart after he went public and said that an F S B official had ordered him to assassinate one of Russia's most powerful men Boris Berezovsky, a Russian billionaire who staunchly opposed of let him. Rootin- before Boris died in two thousand thirteen for tattling on the FSB. They threw them in prison for exceeding his authority at work Alexander escaped during the court process ended up in London, he would publish two books including blowing up Russia. The secret plot to bring back KGB terror. His other book was also about him blaming the SF be ongoing crimes against the Russian public. The second book even implements the FSBA training Al Qaeda militants and says that the F B played a role in nine eleven and two thousand six at the age of only forty three Litvinenko died from a mysterious illness. And then we came to find out. He was poisoned non just by Neil poisoned by by. He was poisoned by radioactive isotope kind of strange right before his death. He just told the New York Times that he thought the s f s B poison the Ukrainian presidential candidate Viktor Yuschenko in two thousand four with the set by the saints can now talk about the fall of the KGB December twenty fifth one thousand nine. Thousand one this is the day the Soviet Union officially dissolved the date of independence, given to the republics of the union of Soviet socialist republics the Soviet Union had been clapping for years now is official nations. Like Armenia Ukraine and been a Reuss now had their independence with no more union. There was no more KGB iron curtain fell to Cold War. Officially ended new Russian President Boris Yeltsin bands, the communist party, communism soon. Ends in Afghanistan Banya and goal Congo. Kenya? Yugoslavia in their nations Boris is the first president of the Russian federation again, the KGB ceases to exist. How ever secret police agencies do continue to operate out of Moscow one is called the federal security service of the Russian federation. Or as we've said, the F S B, the F SP formerly established nineteen ninety-five, but it had already been operating for a couple of years. They've as be employed about sixty six thousand uniform staff, including about four thousand special forces troops. It also employs. Border service of about two hundred thousand border guards the BBC's referred to them recently as Putin's Vladimir Putin's elite spy club. The FSBA is tasked with tackling perceived threats to the Russian state current Russian leader, Vladimir Putin ran this agency before he came to power part of the SP's job is to prevent any pro-western color uprisings in Russia like Georgia's two thousand three rows our rose revolution. And Ukraine's two thousand four orange revolution and two thousand to the assassination of an Arab. Jihad commander in Chechnya known as Qatabi was attributed to the FSP. His check check in comrades said he received a letter laced with poison in our most recent presidential election FSBA is thought to have targeted voters online with distance formation campaigns and spread online propaganda to sway the election. Many believe the F is continuing to fuck with America by spreading disinformation online right now creating fake websites. You know, creating Botts that re tweet and reposed falls. Information aka fake news. Some believe FSB to be behind the entire pizza gay conspiracy. We already did a full suck on. Also, the GRU is another current descendant of the KGB the GRU aka the main directorate of the general staff of the armed forces of the Russian federation is Russia's primary. Foreign intelligence agency, they do all the overseas fine. Well, or most of it, it's very complicated. The GRU is known for its ability to track neutralize foreign enemies often before attacks occur. And again, there are other Russian intelligence agencies. There is a foreign intelligence service or the SVR the civilian foreign intelligence agency of the Russian federation. It's the direct successor to the first chief directorate of the KGB works with the military. Foreign intelligence agency of Russia called the main intelligence directorate. The SF are also has foreign spies also has internet experts in essence surveillance experts economic espionage Reno's. So even though the KGB is over even on the iron curtain has fallen. There are still a lot of spies and still a lot of you know, sneaky shit coming out of Russia. And that takes us out of today's epic time suck timeline. Good job soldier made it back. Then. All right. A lot. A lot of info. Lot info. Let's recap basically Russia has been super secretive and ruthless for a very long time. And it was a especially ruthless during the reign of the Soviet Union. From the time the Bolsheviks revolted in nineteen seventeen until the collapse the Soviet Union in nineteen Ninety-one. Actually. No, I say, especially Ruth is, you know, the the especially Ruth as part really kind of individual Stalin. We always learned the secret police had a of your had to do with a lot of agencies not all called the KGB. I didn't know that. I, you know, just as it so complicated. There's so many different agencies just easier to refer to all of it. Kind of is the KGB. We learned today that there was actually a huge variety of agencies running, you know, different secret police type things running different spy agencies and actually a lot more agencies than we talked about today. Tons of other complicated. Acronyms rush loves to be a complicated mysterious. What I find most interesting about today's sock. The KGB is actually one of the lease ruthless of the Soviet secret police agencies like like they have the most brand name recognition, but they were far less ruthless than their predecessors Cheka, the N K D And Ivan the terrible's appreciate game. Russia has a long history of doing terrible terrible things with pizza to it's pizza was fucking weird. I guess pizza. Get we still stuck in my head. It's does a lot of terrible things to pizza. You know, it says you're going to get Kadian bacon. But then it's like we have no pineapple on joy, just begging and cheese is not doing really bake in this. It's not good with want. No. Then a lot of terrible things to their people. But still have a lot of countries. I guess it just seems that Russia has done more than most during the reign of Stalin, especially Russian secret. Police kept rushing people living in fear of being tortured or killed or sent to the gulags where they were then most likely be tortured and killed of various secret police agencies spied on both the Russian people and the rest of the world and continue to do. So anyone deemed a threat to whatever current regime has been power have? Imprisoned exiled or killed while it doesn't appear that anyone's being boiled alive anymore or worked to death or having a rat sent claw up their ass. Russia's citizens do still live in fear of false imprisonment or worse. Check out this recent Russian tale of Ilgar the dean a Russian activists opposed to Putin's rule ill. Dr and stachel is Tova fell in love in Moscow in August two thousand fourteen married the next year by the time they tied the knot however ill. Dr a thirty four year old opposition activists was behind bars for staging unsanctioned protests against the Kremlin Anastassia, you know, excuse me, the toba twenty five year old former journalists were white to the wedding ceremony the friends toasted the newlyweds champagne on the street outside the couple plan on having you know, two or three kids hope the eldest will be a boy, and then, you know, life kind of fell apart for the while September two thousand sixteen Dayton was transferred to penal colony in a remote region northwest Russia where. Staff reportedly still torture inmates in December of two thousand fifteen Dayton became the first person to be jailed under a controversial law that stipulates prison time for anyone who repeatedly is detained illegal protests. The law approved by Putin and July two thousand fourteen effectively outlaws any form of public dissent. Even if it's peaceful like the protests which Dayton were arrest was arrested amid angry scenes at central Moscow. Courthouses dating was sentenced to three years jail later reduced to six months on a peel Amnesty International publicly recognized him as a prisoner of conscience over the next few years days wife, anesthesia would lose track of her husband's whereabouts as he disappeared into Russia's sprawling brutal penitentiary system, then early November of two thousand sixteen nearly two months after dating transferred to penal colony number seven and a stage received a letter from her husband's smuggled out of the prison camp by his lawyer Dana had been thrown into solitary confinement upon arrival they said he'd been hiding too razor blades amongst his possessions. He would. Claim that they were planning on by prison guards. He went on a hunger strike and protests and his defiance was met with violence the day after his arrival he said he was beaten a total of four times by ten to twelve people at once after the third beating they stuck his head into a toilet bowl in a punishment cell. He says he also alleges the beatings were overseen. By the penal colony administrators or ministers, then things got worse. He says I'm so temper twelfth staff cuff, my hands behind my back and hung me up from the ceiling being suspended in that way caused a terrible pain in the wrist twisted out my elbows and brought savage back pain. I was hung up like that for half an hour. At least then they pulled off my underwear and said, they would bring another prisoner into raped me. If I didn't call a hunger strike after that torture session. One of the administrators were warned him that if he didn't accept food. He would be killed and his body would be buried under the fence. Russia says he's lying, but I doubt it state media says he's making it all up in order to draw attention to himself. Call me cry. Easy, but I don't control don't trust state controlled media. His even though Russia's not technically communist anymore. It has so many communists elements to it very detailed -tarian still the investigative committee in FBI style organization answers only to Putin yet. Another secret police type organization also said it has no evidence of wrongdoing into camp. Of course, they're going to say that slight conflict of interest. Dayton's accusations been backed up by fellow inmates. And also by Pablo chick off a leading Russian human rights lawyer who visited the prison camp in early November. According to chick off prisoners who were kept in cells in different parts of the penal colony and had never met each other told almost identical stories of torture. Some spoke of being left almost naked for days on end and freezing punishment cells Muslim prisoners claim. They were tortured for refusing to eat, pork or for praying. If you didn't get beaten more than twice a day. Then you living excellently said another prisoner torture is not only a regular currents and penal colony number seven, according to the human rights, according to human rights active. Vists as toba admitted the treatment meted out to her husband was less severe than the abuse many prisoners face. In other penal colonies modern Russian prison camps or a direct continuation of the Soviet era. Gulag system says Vladimir Oshadogan the founder of the human rights website gulag dot net, which translates to know to gulags often, they're even located in the very same camps. Where prisoners were executed. Oh, schenken spent four years in the Russians penitentiary system on fraud charges that he said were revenge for his attempt to expose corrupt prison officials torture takes place in all prisons and all prison camps in Russia. He said any version he tries to stand up for his honor or sense of self worth. We'll be tortured rape is commonly used both punish and blackmail. Mill prisoners. He says prison staff film, the raping of inmates then threatened to send the records to their wives or show it to other prisoners if they do not do what they want. She has claims were echoed by other anti-torture active. In late. November Alexei coups, not save a human rights worker posted an online video that showed prisoners being urinated on in sexually abused at three prison camps and Russia's Ural region. According to whose nest of the videos were used by penal colony officials to blackmail wealthy prisoners, forcing them to hand over their business and properties Dayton did. End up getting released from prison, February twenty six two thousand seventeen and then the prison issued an official apology to him on may thirty first two thousand seventeen and agreed to pay him the equivalent of thirty five thousand dollars US for unlawful criminal prosecution and imprisonment had his case not received internal international attention. He even be alive today. I doubt it so Russia. No, more KGB. But still a lot of KGB tie bullshit going on another suck that made me of want to visit Russia. I've actually heard many parts of it are truly beautiful, but for sure never ever lived there. Now time to to really fully finish the reca-. With today's top five takeaways time. By the way. Number one, the gulag period is one of the worst Danes and not only Russia's history, but in the world history, the KGB inherited and continue to legacy of sadism that has topped only by a few of the world's genocides in sheared death toll. China's great leap forward has more deaths estimated between forty five to seventy million people, but the Stalin period of the gulags under you know, the secret police regime he had is probably second at least in the twentieth century. The holocaust had upwards of six million dead chimera Rouge accounts for no less than two million. Did the Armenian genocide was just under two million people Rwanda's, bloody genocide left five hundred thousand to a million dead, but many estimate that in Russia under Stalin tens of millions of people may have died. I think we learned a number two. I think we learned just how off the rails communism can go. The history of human beings is mainly about fighting to get individual liberties to reap the fruits of your efforts to own property and start your own business. Like this one here time suck basically humor. Always wanted to take care of themselves and their families and communities on their own terms. It's safe to say that few places on earth have experienced type of freedom in any real way. But most nations that twentieth century have a much better job than the Soviet Union did with their long reign of Soviet police or secret police organizations number three through danza drawings and the Gulag Archipelago. We are reminded once again that meets acts can really fucking suck in a non time suck way. Never forget that people can be monsters and went empowered with the doctrine of state sanctioned brutality. People can create a literal hell on earth for other people number four spies FIS spies. How many are in the United States right now? One of you listening may be a Russian spy we have listeners in the FBI homeland security NASA other governmental agencies we've heard from him. At least one of you is probably at the very least working with the Russian spy right now. You know, non-russian the Russians have turned into a spy. It's very least maybe. One of you is an American spy or former American spy the US expelled sixty alleged Russian spies in two thousand eighteen then said that kicking them out was unlikely to cripple rush inspiring US because others have wormed enact your way into American companies schools, and even the government an unknown amount of spice, number five, new info, perhaps the most famous of the KGB's officers and spies is flat. Amir putin. The current president and former prime minister of Russia has been in charge of the giant nations in one thousand nine hundred nine Putin studied law at Leningrad state university. And then Putin would put in fifteen years as one of the KGB's foreign intelligence officers, including six years in Dresden east, Germany, flat. Amir Putin retired. In nineteen ninety is Lieutenant Colonel from the KGB and then worked closely with other Russian secret police organizations Putin has a reputation for people dying who disagree with him. A lot of people think he's still doing lots of secretive shit today. Definitely a guy shouldn't trust even recent Putin. Critics like opposition leader Boris name staff, find themselves getting gunned down after speaking out in Boras case he was critical of Russian intervention in Ukraine. And then he was shot outside the Kremlin on February twenty seventh two thousand fifteen. Putin was also implicated in the murder of Alexander Livy ankle said it probably every time I say his name I feel differently. This is that former officer for the KGB success with the FSP who talked about getting poisoned earlier escaped and made it out to London. A guy who defected to the UK, but was poison indictable drinking tea in a London hotel bar. What's secretive shit is Putin up right now, I gotta say the media's fixation with possible Russian meddling in American political dealings. Does not seem nearly as paranoid to me as it did before this week's research, what is big deal. So he spies so maybe kill some time. So Matty, Russell do not finally see just rushing away. She cheat on those so bad. Gca kilo could've been fine. KGB Gula guard would have been rock hard every day in such fun. The blood the place Teagle Teela just a strong Russian time. Thai. Takeaway. Never guessed. I would learn so much about Russia. Two times the KGB has been sucked. I hope you liked. It's hope you didn't get too hung up by my. Horrific attempts in moments to describe so many names, I wish they could have all been like Anderson and Johnson. Dmitri anderson. You know, Sasha Johnson been a little are big time so team. Thanks you. Queen of the suck Lindsey Commons. High priests of the suck harmony valley camp Jesse guardian of gamut guarding of grammar donor, Reverend Dr Joe paisley times, high priest Alex Dugan the guys that bit elixir danger brain axes apparel. Thanks to Heather knowledge ninja Rylander f- kicking off the research, and thanks to again, he who now has a nickname Zach script keeper Flannery next week. We have another big sprawling barely able to be contained topic, Vietnam, the Vietnam war. I know I know technically a military conflicts not a war was a long costly and divisive conflict that pitted. The communist government of North Vietnam against South, Vietnam and its principal ally. The United States the conflict was intensified by the ongoing Cold War between the US and the Soviet Union more fucking Russia. Just won't go away more than three million people including over fifty eight thousand America. Were killed in the Vietnam war, and yes, I will keep calling it a war because that's what it wasn't reality. And more than half of the dead were Vietnamese civilians opposition to the war in the US, bitterly divided Americans. Even after president, Richard Nixon ordered the withdrawal of US forces nineteen Seventy-three communist forces ended the war by seizing control of South Vietnam in nineteen seventy five and the country was unified as a socialist Republic of Vietnam the following year fucking Russia had their hands shift for sure KGB, Madeline Madeline excited to dig into a topic. I've heard so much about some guests, and we we all have. But really know so little about that is going to change this next week. So hope you enjoy it. Now, let's Mosey on into today's fantastic time sucker updates. In times under update. I up date is a dick pox update. You heard me right from Eric Lester talking about some dick pucks, Eric rights. Hello, sir. Sucks lot. My name is Eric. I'm a fairly new listener. I cannot get enough times. Now have been binge binge and ever since I started I was a history teacher for a few years now work for space and science educational nonprofit. I'm a huge advocate for people becoming lifelong learners hail Nimrod. I've been super impressed with the amount of research detail, you put into each subject while keeping it super entertaining your podcast really helps people enjoy learning. And I believe helps listeners find new perspectives and even better challenge their own perspectives from time to time anyways. Thanks for all you do and your team does hail Nimrod anyways enough praise. I wanted to tell you a story that had my wife, and I laugh I've been trying to catch up on episodes. And I came across the Andrew motherfucking Jackson episode. The part where you were talking about tit and dick. That'd be dying laughing because I had a similar thing happened to me a week before my wife, and I got married I got the chicken pox someone. We know does not believe in using vaccines. Fucking anti vaccines. And her kids had the pox. Yeah. Of course, they didn't. I thought it was okay. Because I had the vaccine a long time ago, but I did not realize needed to boost vaccine to be immune it hit me hard. And I had pox everywhere. I severely suffered from dick. It was concerned about a wedding night. So to speak. Luckily by the grace of loose FINA. Everything cleared up except for a few face pox for the wedding and all the important parts were in ship shape wedding night. Anyways, your dick pox tangent. Was just about the funniest thing. I've ever heard due to the due to some personal experience. Thanks again for all you do praise jingles and keep on sucking. Thanks for sharing. That update Erica. I will keep on sucking. I'm guessing you're dick pox is. All all totally you know healed. I'm selling he was cleared for the wedding night. And and I'm sorry that happened. But I'm glad you've got a story about it. And now I wish I wasn't wondering about your dick because I'm wondering like do you have chicken pox scars on your dick, which is a strange thing to wonder about? Well, I hope you don't hope you hope you have either a super handsome, dick or that. Your wife loves a battle-scarred chickenpox, dick. Now some words of encouragement in the fight against ignorance from time EMI EMI rights. Hello master soccer. I know I've written before. But it had to write again before I left for work for the day. After hearing about the response to this to your supposed ignorance portrayed in the moon landing conspiracy episode. I did not see anything of that sort throughout that entire episode. If I'm quite honest. I'm glad that you were so passionate about it. I know several people who have dropped out of college who act as though they are more intelligent doctors out there who believe these kinds of conspiracies and take religious thousand percent fact, I'm honestly tired of seeing this kind of thought passed off and tolerated by so many people maybe just me. But it seems that ignorance is becoming just as terrible as hatred, and I hate the whole they have a different opinion thing. Ignorance kills so much potential for intelligence. It's one thing to be dedicated to religion that is now what makes me upset would makes me upset is when religion is taking total fact and science if it conflicts, it's just bogus. This is what will cause people to destroy this planet because of science taken away from being important there. A reason why so many people hundreds of years ago would have begged for our modern medicine to help them out. And why so many people are glad to be alive? Now, this includes myself because of my own health when I was born I would have not lived very long in the past. Thanks to medicine. I was able to recover from Giannis gain therapy for potential autism. I now how close to twenty twenty vision with glasses and contacts, and most importantly have medication helps me stay stable mentally to be able to function and have a life. I know I'm rambling, but this is basically I'm saying is that ignorance kills all of these wonderful potential things from happening and can be just as harmful as hateful attitudes towards others, like, racism, massage, etc. Etc. I do feel bad to hear someone that was being so angry. I just wish people could think about it for just a moment. I don't wish to live in a place where medicine and technology never evolved because of people not wanting to believe something so important our history and to pursue scientific knowledge. Anyway, that's all I have to say I'm slowly catching up with the secret sauce. So glad to be a space as thank you for all you do. He'll nimrod. Emmy, thank you Emme. Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them. I do want to say one more thing though, about my opinion to take on the moon landing conspiracy episode. I just want to make it clear the wall, I believe that the moon landing being faked is very ignorant. I don't think everyone who believes that is an ignorant person. I think very intelligent people can still have Iger beliefs, which doesn't fury eight me. But again, I don't think you're stupid. If you believe that I just think that what you believe in that case in that instance, is stupid for a lot of the reasons he was just talking about see. So if you don't agree with my take whatever just know for my own conscious that I don't I don't think you're selling complete piece of shit some idiot. And and I am sorry. If that's the way that episode came across some people Palmer gross has some sad news for us, but we can make positive by using his message to become more of where of our nation's growing opioid crisis. Palmer writes suckers, March nineteenth nineteen nineteen or on March. Nineteenth nineteen my beautiful loving conflicted and troubled sister bunny passed from a heroin overdose. This has been a very hard time for for my family as she leaves us and her newly turned eleven year old daughter Tula behind my God Email time, so I can asked if they would do an episode on a diction and the current opioid crisis in this country. It's bad in Virginia. I was even back and inform. That addiction is a subject that can be voted for. We all know someone who is struggling I'm asking spaces or to please vote that subject up. I know Dan will crush it and spread awareness anyway, keep your loved ones close and safe as you can don't turn your back on someone who's battling love you. All hail Nimrod praise bojangles begun and stay LUSA FINA. And let a lover. No. That YoM OB do who Yama b. Starve your laws? Palmer man that is a terrible tragedy. My stepbrother nine weren't very close. But he was a dictator. I went for many years and eventually took his own life. Yes. We need to do that as as a future subject. I wrote that on our list of coming subjects to make sure we hopefully get to that one this year because I do where we are going to talk about the homeless epidemic. That's going to be a social issue one coming up, and I think opioid that crisis. Be a great follow up. Another plea for help coming in for others coming from Texas time sucker, Dustin who rightaid or suck master. I'm hoping to call upon the power of the time so community. My fiance teaches first grade at the small school in rural Texas about an hour and a half way from Abilene last week. Our county got some serious rain that resulted in flash flooding this when a couple of weeks ago now I was at work and got a call from the superintendent of the school. Informing me that one of my fiance students a seven-year-old boy and killed Wednesday morning. They hadn't told her yet. But asked if I could be there to support her. She never said anything but glowing things about this kid. He was a sweet thoughtful kid by all accounts as more details. Emerged. We found that the boy's name was Jake Ramirez history year old sister and his mother were killed when they tried to drive through some high water in their car was swept into the creek. We believe while taking their dad to work at a local dairy. The father was the only one who survived the gofundme. Go fund me. My guy man campaign has been set up to help him through these hard times I'm included link. I want you in the times that community to know that my fiance, and I stand to gain absolutely nothing from this. I just think that Mr. Ramirez needs some love and support. Now more than ever. I know the time said communities wonderful things for people in need. And I thought I'd put this out there on the off chance that he gets rid on the show and some time suckers feel inclined to help their fellow meet sack in a time of unthinkable tragedy and hardship much love to you in the time that community you create something beautiful filled with exquisite content and exceptional people. Keep on sucking Dustin Crawford. Yes, thank you, Dustin. I I can put that go fund me Lincoln the episode description. A lot of other go fund me campaigns can be found in the colds that curious private Facebook group, by the way, and I know some of you sometimes get. Get irritated that. You know, you can't post those over and over every day, but we just have so many listeners now which was so thankful for and there's so many, you know, people in need that if they were posted always all the time. That's the Facebook group would be nothing, but go from links and also, I know somebody guys get frustrated. You don't get your gofundme link read in the show just know that we get literally hundreds of emails every week. Now, ten twenty thirty go fund me campaigns every week. And again, just it would be a three hour episode of just a litany of things. And then then then they would ended up just get lost in a sea of campaigns. But I am sorry. We can't promote them all Adamo. Neil does have another update regarding recent devastating tornadoes that have affected members of the time. So community he writes, suck master few first off future, man. The show your stand up so much to my wife, and I drove to the Dallas show just twenty four hours after our hometown Ruston Louisiana was hit by three tornado. We got the tree off my house and headed straight to the show. I got thank you for the dedication. The show was amazing. It was just what we needed to take our minds off the disaster. Back home Rushton is a beautiful community filled with amazing people that came together to rebuild up for so much destruction. But there's still a lot of work needs to be done. If there's any way, you could share our story and. Using program it'd be greatly appreciated Longley the sock Impreza bojangles keep on smoking atom did include that one as well. And now a powerful personal immigration update. So little update to the immigration episode from time Selker Nico. Nico writes a few weeks ago, we listened the time immigration. It's an issue. It's always on my mind, but has been a little more. So a mine recently. So I wanted to refresh myself on your take you said a lot of great things and gave a lot of great facts. And I appreciate the way you handle it. It's huge topic. And there can be some angles to the issue. You just can't give from your point of view. So my story helps round it out when Nico is born and raised in Georgia. I still live here to this day, my dad's family's from El Salvador, my mom's family's from Paraguay, my dad's family, moved to Los Angeles back in nineteen sixty seventies youngest to five and the only one to have been born in US, my mom, moved to the metro Atlanta area. Ninety-seven when she was sixteen years old didn't know any English when she got here, she loves her mind as she pizza every day at school for at least for her last two years of high. Because that's the only thing she knew how to order in the school calf tear that is strangely adorable. Yes, pizza pizza voted. Yes. Pizza. Piece of MUI Moineau pizza that is so fucking cute. My mom has since learned perfect English and speaks way better than most native speakers. Oh, I'm sure including myself. Sure. If your mom lives, this'll be like Jesus Christ pull it together. Even I can say fucking Russian names. My mom was a nurse now saved many lives in your ten plus years as a nurse my dad joined the marines when he was seventeen man. Thank your Dafur service force my grandparents to give consent, but he was going because he was going to join as soon as he turned eighteen anyways. My dad was set in following the examples of his older brothers Melodist ankle Romeo was in the marines. During the tail end of the Vietnam war surface some time over there. Spend a little time in the Philippines as well. There. Other brother Joel also joined the marines was a helicopter mechanic in late eighties nineties, my father joined the marines and early nineties was trying to shoot stinger missiles, he spent some time overseas during operation Desert Storm, but parents got divorced while ago in both since remarried they both happened to remarry Mexicans which is silly coincidence. One of my step mom's brothers, also joined the marines and the may two thousand did a tour overseas. On an aircraft carrier. Can we get an ooh fuck and raw who rock? I know. I don't think I'm qualified to do that. But you ask all the sounds great. Right. Well, here's some of the ugly stuff that comes in two very important people in my life for part of the DACA program. Now now, you did mention this during the self on immigration, but just a quick refresher people that are eligible for Dacca or so because they're bound to this country at a very young age. My step mom is a Dacca. And so is my fiance more on her and a bit. My stepmom is also a bad ass. She's currently pursuing her masters in nonprofit business. She helped build a nonprofit in metro Atlanta the provides mental health treatment to people without health care coverage. My step mom has also gone through years of red tape trying to become a US citizen, and let me tell you. It's fucking hard. She's now a resident, but she still can't vote in the second immigration. You mentioned quote by Donald Trump where he talks about this country's great because it is a country of consequences. The quote was on this whole deck issue. That's been going on for quite some time now, and I get that really do beholding my step mom accountable for legal shortcuts and decisions. Parents may doesn't make sense to me to me. It's the same as holding the child of any thief murderer any kind of criminal accountable for what their parents did. That does make really good sense. The child has no authority over the decisions. You don't makes now to tell you a little bit about my fiance. Giuliano maybe the biggest bad ass of the mall. She came to the US from Uruguay when she was three she didn't know English until the first second grade mean she struggled not just to learn, but socially for those first few years of schooling. She still remembers her only friend a black girl name volunteers who stood up to Giuliani's bullies for her ever since. She never understood the kids were even picking on her Juliana. That's that's also fucked up, but also kind of adorable or like these kids who are saying horrible shit. And she just like no say no say no say Giuliani has worked so hard throughout her young life to get to where she is. She was a student who also went above and beyond with extracurriculars because she's a Dako a decent. Undergrad education almost seemed like an impossibility for her. But she never let that stop her. She got accepted to berry college one of the most beautiful schools in America inexpensive is hell another obstacle for her to climb. But again, she pushed ahead got accepted into a scholarship program called the bar foundation Giuliani became the student leader of the scholarship program. The biggest at her school by her senior year throughout her time in school. She has volunteered for over one thousand hours. She spent all three of her summers doing unpaid internships for nonprofits this Saturday. She's going to graduate with three point five GPA zero dollars in student loans. She's my hero. We don't know what the future holds for immigration status. We're getting married. This fall. We have thousands of dollars ridiculous amounts of red tape. And no guarantees standing in her way to citizenship. Truly scary road. Lies ahead of us. I will be by your side. No matter what happens, but America's all she and I have ever known. It's scary to think that at any moment after her current Dacca's status expires she could be forced to leave the country. The biggest kicker of the mall. No matter what the people in. My family story is regardless of immigration status of all legally here, by the way, I can tell you calendar stories when my family's gotten treated like legals, we all speak perfect English. We all have lived here for most of our lives. But there is one thing we all have Brown skin one. Look at our skin in our story doesn't matter and I'm gonna stop reading here because I didn't realize you guys had Brown skin. And I don't read Brown skin message here on the suck. Thanks for listening. That's all for no key match. How fucked up that would be that. It took a weird turn. And we're like, thank you very much. Like what? No sorry. I know. There are a lot of good people in the codes curious if not all of you. But I just think it's important to humanize issues and really just think how deep these things go into the lives of people real people. The biggest thing being part of this cold as Thomas to listen, I and create my opinion second I'm always trying to work on being a better example that by the way, so I hope when it comes to this issue of immigration more people will do that. Because based on the experience, I can tell you that it is generally not the case in our society today. Nope. Sure. Fuck is not well delivery this Email. Thank you for taking the time to read it, stay curious and keep on sucking with love Niko Cardoza. Thanks niko. Thank you so much, man. What what beautiful thoughts? I I love personal accounts like that. 'cause you're right because I can't speak to that. Because I don't have that personal story. But I think these stories are great to think about when you know, you're thinking about issues like this. It's so easy to put everybody in this random group. You don't know shit about Jeff foe and get him out of here. Not that simple. Shit is never that simple in the world and black and white thinking is so rarely rarely useful. Right. The world is so grey so nuanced and complex, and I think I think that's why a lot of people go to black and white thinking because it's it's hard to think in complex terms ears. But no that bad this good fuck that love this. And then stories like NICO's remind us that now man that's not the case. So thank you to everyone who sending updates to bojangles at times podcast dot com. And again, we don't think you're 'cause our update isn't valuable if we don't get it in. We just don't have room for everything that is all for today's time sucker updates. Thanks time. I need we all did. That's all for today. Tom Selker space lizard to have a great week. Think of me when you eat your sweet sexy man, put your dig on. If you come across the time machine. Don't go back to earlier mid twentieth century Russia, unless you real into masochism. Oh, and it was one of the thing. Keep on sucking. These guys would have literally killed for Gordeeva.

Soviet Union KGB Joseph Stalin Soviet Russia murder communist party Felix Russia Vladimir Lenin KGB military corps Moscow San Francisco Dan Kelman Intel United States Russia Russia communist party soccer
372: Bob Saget | Family Man Turned Filthy Comedian

The Jordan Harbinger Show

1:07:37 hr | 2 months ago

372: Bob Saget | Family Man Turned Filthy Comedian

"No matter how rich the success we are! We're all gone to the same place, but I just think Ba kind as many people as you can while you here and when you're gone if you think when you're. You go on. Wow, that Kinda is a lyric on every us. You won't be using that as a soundbite for this episode. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's sharp minds and most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see. The Matrix comes to how these amazing people think and behave, and our mission is to help you become better informed more critical thinkers even get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening if the show got episodes with. With spies and CEO's athletes and authors, thinkers and performers, as well as toolboxes for skills like negotiation, body, language, persuasion, and more so if you're smart, and you like to learn and improve, you're going to be right at home here with us for a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests and popular topics. Go to Jordan. Harbinger DOT COM and we'll hook you up today on the show, one of the most famous faces in America. He was on full House. Danny Tanner America's funniest home videos. He's in your living scattered. Scattered in your living room for decades growing up. If you're thirty forty fifty years old for Bob Saggy joking around was about avoiding pain, he lost someone important. Every two years as a kid moved around a lot and many of his uncles died around age forty from heart attacks, which freaks me out because I'm forty and I really hope I have a lot. More time left when he started. Stand up at age seventeen. He was careful about his language because it helped him get TV shows, which is kind of funny if you've ever seen Bob's Zagazig stand. Stand up comedies not so careful now. He was opening for musicians like Kenny. Loggins was kind of funny for him to go full Danny Tanner and then become known as one of the dirtiest comics in the scene at least for a while, and if you saw him on entourage, was a caricature of himself, and it was something extra Bob doesn't consider his reinventions comebacks opportunities to redefine yourself, and that's part of what we'll talk about here today on the show bad in him, doing with its prop closet on the set of full House with John, Stamos Cooley. Get guests like Bob Sagging and try to get them to open up like a real person. It's about Rapport and networking and I've got a networking course for you, which is free and always will be. It's called six minute networking. It's over at Jordan harbinger dot com slash course and most of the guests on the show. They subscribe to the course in the newsletter. Succumb join. US, you'll be smart company where you belong now. Here's Bob Sag. CONGRATS on being the first comedian to launch a podcast here with your new show by the way that's yeah. That's a breakthrough. It's huge and every kid across the street has podcast as well so it's literally this contractors across the street doing construction. They have podcasts how to nail boards had a do rebar does everything though is doing very well. The goal was set. Make people feel good? Probably what you're trying to do is inform and get people through stuff. A lot of people were surprised that your podcast has any element of seriousness to it. They were like Oh, he can be serious like people weren't expecting that. That from you I? Guess what you say never saw me. Do any acting outside of full house but I've done a bunch not entrees. That's a bad example, but well yeah a bit on Broadway a bunch of times and always ended up with a serious role. You know been in a bunch of movie things and always ended up with a serious role, so you started stand up at age seventeen, according to the book, which will Lincoln the show notes sturdy. Daddy according to get started at seventeen. When did you know the you were funny like? Were you a class clown the whole time or was last year last? The truth of it is and I've thought about it a lot I did a movie with Richard Pryor and I'd been friends with them. From the comedy store, and then when I did the movie critical condition, I got closer with him and I asked that one day, and we both at the same time, said four. We knew we were at four years old. Really from the reactions from adult human, no not adults sometimes from adults, but I was pretty obnoxious, says just like you know, I, dance like real fast and hyper, and I should have been on Ritalin or they would've put me on it, but like just all the kids in kindergarten. I'd make them laugh and I remember little girls, kissing me and stuff and I don't remember them. Jody Klivans Beth Cohen Marcy Wasserman I knew all of them had crushes on all of the Denise Nessin. Everyone of at four and I would watch James. Bond movies six and be him. Horny, little bastard so at four, and it was funny. I was really funny as making movies since I was nine eight millimeter stuff and then I wasn't funny for years. And that was A. Hard Highschool Times stuff. It's gotta be hard to get famous walk because you make your first wife at age seventeen right so you know too much I'm GonNa have to kill you now i. Read Your Book when I hear you I have to kill you. Yeah, we can hang out when we can get this plague when the plague lists. Get wait. You met her when you were seventeen year. Like this random. I don't know nerdy Jewish guy trying comedy. Hoping that it worked and you went through this phase our segment of your life where it was like one of the most. Most you Dave Kuli'ou`Ou John Stamos, etc, probably like the most famous, some of the most famous people in the entire world at that point. I mean they had full house in East Germany for crying out loud, they did, and when I was on the video shows a number. One Show in China, wow, it was that and CNN with the two biggest imports from the US wow and I think they're turned off CNN, but here seeing people get hit in the crotch. They were finally. They love that like going down the slide and your pants come off like that just doesn't get. Language language. You speak to get hooked on a nail. But. What's weird is a lot of countries had their own host? England had your new beetle. He was a famous to host. Supposedly a nice man and I think Australia had Australia's funniest home videos, and they would do an exchange program, and so that was interesting. We just gotTa -ducted Bona Tomba's Ron Alfonso myself just got inducted into the TV Hall of fame. Congratulations, thanks! We did as June think and we did it CA-. Did we did a ZOOM ACCEPTANCE TO CONFERENCE? Senate will be available for the people in the TB Academy or napped whatever I. Don't know what it is, but it's a lovely thing. It's real you mentioned in the book that you have to take shots at yourself before taking shots at anyone else, so it's like comedy as offensive I knew some. Like as a comedian. It's like comedy as a defense mechanism, but I get that man like when someone's about to criticize your work, there's definitely some relief by beating yourself to the punch or like ragging on yourself. I and I think I can relate to that even as a podcast host and I think anybody who creates anything can really relate to that like you put stuff out there and it's like i. don't care what anyone thinks, but you really don't mean that most of the time you're just like I hope people like it every everyday. I get new reviews of this show and I'm like. I just. Almost universally good, but I do get worried when I see, bad ones will ruminate on that stuff and I'll ask my supposed to. You're not messing with the good ones where the bad I know you're not supposed to. Someone sends me some devilish. Block them on everything. I'm not doing that and I won't do negative. Actually, that's minute closing song as a joke, but it is, but it is actually minute. Stand up when I do it again. I just can't do it. I can't let people that are bad for me and I can get constructive criticism like I did a show in London and I had a song I was doing offended. Some people so I took it out 'cause they gotTa Review. They said he was great. Except for this one thing, and it didn't have enough empathy to. It wasn't thinking about the people that I was making fun of. In a good way, but some comedians that have always loved Don rickles so big influence. He would make fun of himself. Not really his thing was he solo and he's GonNa. Make Fun of everybody. And then Richard Pryor. We tie all of his fault, and then he really didn't make fun of people. You know he wouldn't attack. He would attack the way people are. He would attack racism. He would attack, but his truth was a newest huge influence from an Rodney Dangerfield is who told me make fun of yourself first, and then you beat them to the punch and Jackson. Browne! When have you every convenience? Jackson Browne that? That singer. If you guys don't know it and younger people is, you gotta go go back and listen to it all because he's brilliant and beautiful, and inducted into the rock and Roll Hall of fame. The through to some people tell people their accolades is just an amazing artist and writer. He had a lyric and a song. It's like the lyric was I believe. Don't confront me with my failures. I have not forgotten them. It's like no one needs to tell me what I'm doing wrong, or what's annoying or what my mistakes are or how they perceive me in a negative way, I know it I'm the first worst judge of myself and I tried to correct it, so people should just let people work on themselves I couldn't agree more. I mean it is tough. It's weird. How a lot of the people who are the most sensitive to criticism and. And I don't mean that in a negative way either, but just the most vulnerable are also putting themselves out there and taking this massive risk and going and doing stand up routines, and getting heckled or like putting a show out there and having people be like us. Stick to stay up. Sag It you know, or whatever kind of crap you know you might see. I would imagine it takes almost the majority of your career before. Before you can be like I'm just blocking that out because I've never gotten any value from it. That's been my whole career, and I agreed with, and that's why I've changed so many times. That's why it morphed into different things. That's why even knew where I was headed where I will be with my work is a little more storytelling I guess I can't really allies it. It's just more of this, and that's why the podcast. PODCAST is so valuable to me because I love this media I've been doing it forever I mean I, started before full houses on CBS is a broadcaster doing the CBS morning news against the today show good, morning, America, as the sidekick on the CBS morning program, and I, got fired after five months, so we know I'm good at broadcasting five months. That's a short run, but then you got picked up and did full House for. was done working. Have you ever thought you'd want something works I do some? Now that we're this show works. If you ever thought it's never going to happen again for me, I'm just done. Oh, I, mean yeah, of course, yeah I used to be a lawyer I technically still am. I got laid off because the economy went down and I was like Jesus I. Barely got that job. What am I? GonNa. Do I don't even want to do it. And then I started the show and then I had. Had A falling out with my business partners in a start over again by myself, slash with the support of all people in my network, my family and things of course, but had to start over again and build it again, so yeah, I know I. Know What that's like. I know that feeling that says you're never gonNA. Get there. You're never gonNA get back on top right, so maybe you shouldn't try, and then you try any way, and if you're lucky, you get some success. Yeah, I know exactly what? To try because you're young and there's no time limit on it I mean I keep telling people. Rodney dangerfield and they know 'cause a lot of it was caddyshack back to school. Easy money. It was fifty eight when he got caddyshack. That's crazy. This is a career doing standup forever. Doing the tonight show starting Ed Sullivan working is Asraf, and you know being put down for so many years. So this is, it's a big deal. People put a lot of energy and emphasis into has to happen when you're young. Especially now because I think people are GonNa the world's not going to be around long anyway and people aren't going to be around long anyway that you can't have that attitude like Youtube folks and influencers and stuff like that being, and they look young, and you go well crap. I'm thirty. I can't do that. These kids are fifteen. Look at what they're doing right that comparison game is. Is Not going to work I. Mean You SORTA? Discuss that a little bit in the book is well. I. Mean you talk about like working with child? Actors on full House, which were those people were super talented, and you know you're an adult. There must have been a party. That's like man. I'm the old guy quote. Unquote on the set like these folks. I'm the thirty year old and nine year olds telling me my lines bright. Yeah, like get it together. I. Do Believe I. Have Talent I just don't have graphic memory like on I'm acting at something especially, if you do something like really good play in Broadway, and that's like a big deal, and may come back Oh. My God I. Feel so off from that time when we all get to come back to this stuff, but that is the true exploration of a character and understanding it and a good movie role where you can really sink your teeth into not. Not Be Yourself. A lot of people just want to be famous rich, and yes, money makes life easier for people, but fame is bullshit, and it helps you. It sells you being doing more of what you want, but to let it go to your head. The moment you're cocky is the moment you've lost. His audience and a lot of people are attracted to it. You know if I'd known that secret as a teenager, I would have had a lot of girlfriends. been quite the Stud, because the key was not care, and not to be scared, and it just doesn't matter at anything that's happened good for me. Just happen by itself I didn't even push for like the podcast just happened. The had five offers from five big companies. That wanted to go with all of them. A couple of my friends zone a couple of them I went with studio seventy one. I'm really thrilled to making three a week right now. I'm got Monday Wednesday Friday. How often do you do yours I? Do Tuesday. Thursday Friday. Yes, you do the same deal. You're living it. Yeah! Yeah, it's a lot of work. Obviously, you gotta read ten. Ten twelve hours of stuff to prep for a show and get a good interview out of it, and but I like it I like it doesn't feel like. Why don't you just do what I do Google on the print out the old IMDB and Wicca Pedia just hold that. Let's look at it now. No I read the whole book I watched Tinier comedy. I watched old montages. Before this I was watching a video which link in the show notes of you in like. Is it Jimmy? Kennedy or Jamie Jamie Kennedy. Kennedy and it was like Roland with sagging. I was on that staff I. Mean I've got some deep cuts. That was a half a million dollar video. Just the video cuts half million dollars. You can't even get that for an independent film sometimes these days. That's crazy. You can't do any of it right now. Obviously, but that was for the MTV show called blown out with Jamie. Kennedy and Stu stone and the whole basis of the show is ever going to make a music video made. Talking about something stupid talking about lofty goals. I love them and that song played well. You know fine. It was taken from another very famous rap song. Your first material was really dark. It came from a dark place. Guy Guests because you moved a lot as a kid. You're moving around. And you mentioned that the US like your first ten minutes of comedy on TV, talk shows for years afterwards, and you said Comedians I ten minutes usually stay with them for years or longer, Y is that what's going on with the ten minutes and experience? It's kind of like all of the lights. You lived up Tobin, then culminated into certain resident of who you are. It usually your New Year's the deals with you make your name. He's talking about where you're from, or you would come out and talk about the world and how you see it. Those comedians have always been the most impressed by more personal comedian, but personality comedian. Not Like River Mono would talk about to gaffe again. You could sit and listen to his kids in his white stuff forever, and then you've got David Chapelle great, Dave Chapelle who comes out, and in the beginning of. Of the whole damn thing says in sticks and stones says it's your fault. This is all your fault, and that is not talking about does talk about his family does talk about his kids, but it's dealing more much more philosophical level. Don like you're to completely different way, but at the same designed is George Carlin. Who would say here's where we're at and here's what's really screwed up right now so I. Get moments of that in there, but I also want to entertain people. That, they're not because they are. You know Georgia's Griot Dame's. Amazing you've reinvented yourself and I don't know if this is quite the right term, but like from would you say club comic to television comic and then back to live, stand up again. Is that accurate? Yeah? I never stopped doing standups teen and I did comedy songs in the beginning. Another idol was Martin mull because he he was this great committee ad that I saw a musical comedy. I wasn't copying it. I just happened to be writing songs and our road, sixty six os serious songs that were so bad and registered. Registered with the Library of Congress copy wrote them, and they're the worst songs ever I mean. I was like I wrote one called when I was a boy and I was fifteen. So what Martin is maxine documentary about him, which is on, hold right now because we can't film many film anything. Yeah, no kidding, working with a bunch of child actors on full House looking at some of your comedy and things like. Did you have to compartmentalize? HOW DID YOU NOT SLIP? Let loose with the flurry of profanity around these. Lose and sometimes I would do it, and the MOMS would come downstairs. Go, Bob. The girls are watching the monitors in the classroom. Which of off I'm working? You know I was trying to be like I never got caught was really like a nine year old boy or ten roadway accepted did deal with Dave. John Laugh, which went into very adult male oriented of course like you're standing there John, stamos Dave, Cooley A, and you think no one can see you and you're doing what's called blocking which? which is like when you're moving around the stage set and I heard that there was a life size sheild sized doll. Yeah, let's let's forget this. This was painful. This was just I didn't know. The cameras were trying to make the crew lab. If you give me a rubber doll, that's two and a half feet tall. What am I not going to do that? Nobody's there is this grownups I didn't know? The television sets were rolling upstairs. I didn't know. There like sitting in another room and they can see like stage monitors or something like what's going on. Me Doing stuff and you know and happens yeah. It's not easy to be on camera all the time eight hours, or ten hours a day, or however long with all your buddies while it wasn't even that long, it was all about rehearsal, so that was just rehearsal, and it felt like a joke to be talking to a test of having to do my lines, so they can set shots to a three foot tall, literally test. They were made at rubber I guess they would use them for CPR or for me to work with Yeah I. Don't think you give me that I. Don't think that something I should have the what skill sets do you think translated back and forth from TV in stand up like obviously humor but are. Things that you worked on with stand up. The translated full has and things. You took from full House that translate even now to you doing live comedy well. I also so known for full House. It's like you can walk around saying I. DON'T WANNA. Talk about it and then I spent a couple of specials where there was always some five to seven minute full housemate whether it be the eight by ten John. stamos did know about the whole cut mouth or the donkey that was on the set, did his business to that was indifferent specials, and in a different our that I've been out rolling, but one of the things that I heard. Heard from people that were well known when I was starting one of the big advice, things got gotta jump several well-known people. was that once people know who you are. It's luckiest thing in the world because you already have the audience now. Your obligation is to tell them something worth while whether it be you know have a great meaning to it or bring people together or getting them upset about something, because you WanNa, wake up, or just frankly making them laugh, and that's kind of where I'm at Comics, writers have this unique skill or seemingly have this unique skill both having an experience and then commenting on that experience at the same time. What's your mind doing? Stand up before you took it to the stage like. Are you in line at some pizza place and you're thinking about like making comments to yourself or out loud about how this is happening in real time like George? Carlin kind of did that right in a way. Did you find yourself doing that same thing? His so eloquent, because his all thought out an all rehearsed and all done. You know wordperfect. He was a wordsmith, and he was beyond brilliant mind was different. Mine was more narcissistic Morton. Erotic mine required therapy and I got an X.. Maybe my now that I'm. I'm over sixty. I'm more into talking like a person when I'm not as now were halfway through the interview at finally starting to become a person, so it's like I'm British Hybrid I. You know that's just my nature. Plenty of people were doing all the right. Things instill failed. You actually noted this in the book dirty. Daddy said plenty of people around me were all doing the right things and they they still failed, so that sort of brings out the question. What percentage of your success do you think was hard work? Because your dad you said is like a super hard workers you. You working so hard work. Yeah, that's all hard work. Yes, sometimes, you work really hard to sell something really hard I prepare, but if I'm in the zone for some reason, if I'm in the zone and everything's right and everything aligns properly, then it's the most wonderful thing. I did a movie a couple years ago very low budget, and all the actors were great, did a lot of favors, and it was a good script and I only had fifteen days to shoot it, and it was good. It wasn't great. You know I. It wasn't something I wanted to get myself in eight plus for. For everybody was wonderful and worked so hard, because great people, barely hiring people working for college credit, but it's very hard to get in the zone and then have it work, but if it works on some level, and this did I mean it made its money which is big deal, but the other point is this other things I've done. The just went over the fence and I didn't even do anything. I just showed up in Swan. You know some things just happen and some things you work your work your work. You were ten years to try to sell something at it doesn't sell. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show. We will be right back. 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That is hostgator dot com slash Jordan and now back to the Jordan Harbinger show. It is funny to see how now of course opportunity feels like probably automatic. You're turning things down because you just don't like that area where they're doing it or you like. I don't like working with these types of things that doesn't really speak to me, but like in the beginning there had to be a percentage churned out things that they're just dirty. Entertain this what they're not like done by the team, so they're not not down people because they're just trying to get something made. They find funny, but sometimes people do things just for the sake of Phil, and that's how they view me sometimes because they've objectified from Oh what you did that. Special in your dirty in. The F. Word a lot, so you'll do that as was like no, that was where I was at at the moment. Yeah, yeah, people liked it, and it was good and went in the zone. Any performer is zone. You know if you're an athlete, your zone, it's the same thing as a performer except athletes are better and so our musicians. What percentage of your success have you probably can't even calculate this? But what I'm wondering. If you what percentage you feel, like might be luck. Getting fired from CBS and getting picked up as Danny. Tender like there's there's an element of holy crap got fired from a radio job and ended up being in the done the number one show a television job. That was A. Camera Aoki does matter. Because that was third wheel and they wanted me out, but I was the original choice for Danny Tanner, and it wasn't available because I was doing the show New York. And then when I got fired, my manager called the producers of the exact producers full House and said Bob's available, so they okay, so I did a quick screen test, and then I was with David. John, and I known date for a few years already, Dave Cooley A. When you're younger when you're trying to make it or even if you're older, and you're trying to make it when your friends are getting big brakes around you and you're still doing. Stand up every night or you feel like you're stuck in a routine, but like your friend gets a show. Your other friend gets a show. Your other that was. That was my life and still is sometimes. Wow it has been a couple of movies have been up for a net for the biggest director. Then a friend of mine got it and I was like now. I'm wise enough to know. Oh good. He's better for it right? Yeah, 'cause I directed stuff. Understand at all. It's like Oh, he's much better for and I didn't want to do that nude scene. Good. Yeah, you did. But how do you stop from getting discouraged? How do you stop from getting? This scourge is a good. Good question, yeah. We're letting. Get your head. You know, mean or letting it means something like Oh, I'm never gonNA. Make it because I didn't get the part in this. You Know Chris Rock movie. Yeah, like it could mean something instead of just being. Oh, you know. He's better for the part. It could be like I knew. It thinks I'm funny. I'm washed up and get like that. That's called work on yourself, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of. You just doesn't. Do you just learn through experience, though or does he have the ad joke about it, but my first job says my mom seventy grow, not everybody's GonNa like you and I said I need names. Name and I have I. Know who doesn't like me. They either tell me online or well. Known people go. No I don't like him and then your agent. 'cause your baggage. They don't like you. Wow, who doesn't like you I got books I have giant books of. That's foam books. Do you have like a nemesis? In Hollywood that's like Oh him and Bob Saga. Don't get along at all episodes Mrs. Mrs Are Dead. That's a good record to have XS happened. It just was an accident as it as it were as it were. Find out no matter how Richard Success we are. We're all the same place, but I just think behind as many people as you can. Why you here and when you're gone. If you think when you're gone, you go on. Wow, that Kinda is her lyrical never use. I don't know that's going to bubble up to the top of your. No twitter feed is. Using that as a soundbite? That will actually now that you said it. Maybe we have to I. Don't know and then fade into the episode. W Great. It's not bad. It's not bad as it stands. How do we get happy for our friends, successes and not start resenting it because you said now mold enough to say that's okay. They were better for it, but there had to be a point earlier where you went. Oh Man, you know, this means something about me and now I'm Kinda pissed off at them I wonder if they sabotage me like all these things are going through your head. That's insanity. That's immaturity and. And they should watch Amadeus and watched so yary resent. F Murray Abraham's character represent town halls, playing Mozart that's caused stupidity, and not knowing what's important in everybody, and there are geniuses out there. That are going to surpass you unless you're the top five, and you know who you are not five know who they are because the world knows who they are, you know the musk has something to say. You'RE GONNA listen even if you don't like him, you listen for me. I'm at the point now. This one guy that's an actor and it was really rude to me last time I saw that I've known him for a long time, so it was like well. I'm not so thrilled to watch his work now and that I watched so being at. He's done, and it's one of the best things I've ever seen. So. I went good for him. That nothing to do with May who knows why the hell so many ignores you. Maybe they're legitimately concerned. Maybe they had an emergency in family. Maybe there are a total asshole and just WanNa talk somebody to further what they're working on. Maybe you're doing something. Maybe we don't like you. Maybe learn not to interrupt you know maybe just shut up and just take care of your business. I'm so happy to see great work and I'm so happy. Why do I have to be friends with somebody? If they're not my friend, my friend people always go to of you met so. They Nice Yeah or sometimes we'll actually now that person's not nice I know a couple people that have been betrayed by that person or a couple of ladies that have been treated bad by that person or everybody knows that about them, but they take it with a grain of salt because they're so talented because if they're famous. Talking about it, but the basic. Thing is gives who cares. It just doesn't matter. You don't think it matters to be. Do you think it's important to be a role model or an example? Because you're so visible I think it's important if it means something to you, but I don't think. People feel like they have any obligation to certain people. That's why you hear about athletes that are acting like jerks to fans. Yeah, the got can't believe. He treated me like that. And sometimes that same person is the very first person in line to go. See a make a wish kid in a wheelchair. You can't really pin it like that, but some people are just not nice and think my job. A lot with actors anything. My job is to act. It is not to be your little fan boy or Fan Neuro. How do you get feedback on your creative work? Or whatever your you know, you're acting roles your comedy while also not letting people discourage you or getting too much influence on what you're doing like. You've got to be able to take feedback that I. Don't have any problem anymore now. Why is that too old for it? I've been around too long. I know too much. Much Emmy I'm not smart, but I genuinely love humanity, and I want to see it rise to its highest so for me to walk around scared thinking about people that are trying to hold back. Nobody's hold me back. If anybody's holding, you back you, you know, not you, not you your now. Getting was hold me back at you Jordan. This podcast is really hold me back. This podcast is going to. You're going to see a massive onslaught of listeners for your show. It's going to do. Four to eight. Seconds here, few GONNA get eight more people. At least eight more people are going to start listening as a result of the show provided. We don't blow it in this in the last quarter here the last you know ten minutes here, whatever that's impossible. We got more and word in our in twelve to those minutes have to be cut. That's true, yeah there. There is that you know a lot of people go. Oh, you're gonNA interview outside. That's going to be so interesting. It's exciting. What is he doing now and I said well. He's working on this and this and this and some people go. Why does he still work because he definitely doesn't need to right, and that's an interesting question because I think for a creator. Weird not to do any work I have to work till I'm debt. Yeah, I understand what it's like not to work. I'm not a lazy nothing. Yeah, it was like sitting back and watching my kids kids all day. They don't have kids. I was born to do this and I'm just getting to do what. I WanNa do now I'm just getting to be able to pick up the phone and say to somebody I'd like to do this and the okay. Let's see if we can make this happen. Did you ever actually want fame? The like? was that part of the thing or was it you? You just want to be able to do comedy, but you didn't necessarily care about the fame part I wanted to work. I get fired from the show in New York in the beginning I wanted to make be a moviemaker. That's all I wanted and big moviemaker doesn't mean fame. In means you get to make movies, so I went to USC Grad School for three days and I quit because the comedy store. The owner mature said you should work here. I said but I'M GONNA GO TO USC Grad School? She said now you should come here and be a stand up 'cause you got it. And I ended up emceeing for eight years so and everybody. That's anybody was there at the time in nineteen, seventy eight at one, the student Nas car, and I thought that I was gonna be a giant filmmaker, and then I started taking acting classes Jerry Seinfeld recommended me into an acting teacher Darryl Hickman. That I did the groundlings workshop for a year, and that was quite an experience, so I had a background improv already in Philadelphia and Ed background in stand up because they've been doing that, so those doing like five things I just didn't know how to act, so I really learned what it meant to be as real as possible. Learn how to though character learn. That I found out I loved acting I really only got classes to learn how to direct to understand how actors work, but I love acting I love everything. I do and I put a thousand percent of everything I have into it I'm loving. This podcast right now is just wonderful to reach out to people and to get to hear from them. That's the other thing. Yeah, it's more of an interactive thing with full house. House I would imagine you get people. Kinda yelling at. You were actually on that note. You're known for being Danny Tanner in full house, but you're also I, don't WanNa. Say equally known, but the guy in half baked says nobody's sucks for marijuana. That's like a fifteen second cameo and I feel like fifty percent of people know you as Danny Tanner at least as well as they know you. The guy standing up in that. They is a comedian. Yeah. I think that was a another thing that was a for people of your generation. A turning point people at what was that Bob Sang it? You know and the line was used to suck. Dick for coke and then another comedian Dave. Edwards believe his name is. He goes I've seen him. And that's the fun part, but. Japan's movie and that's when we first became friendly. I don't know I do a bunch of things I. Don't just do one thing. I'll never just do one thing. After full house in the video show ended a year later. I said I don't want to be on camera anymore. So directed to wise. I'd had it I'd had it with the whole. Getting recognized all the time. Really I'd had it with being thought of as those guys you know, or you're the host of a TV show. You must sell dog. Food or people hated me on full House I. Never got a good. You ever really waited me on the video showed. I woke up one morning on a Sunday morning guiding Tom. Shales. Who loved a lot of people and he was a big Chicago. Tribune believe. And it was syndicated to the La Times. I woke up on a Sunday morning. I had made a VHS tape for America's funniest home videos home video, so it was called, and it was one about babies at once kids one about animals and I was at a house with a cat and I told him. I can't be here, guys. We can't tell me it's too late. Lockdown. Eight hours I couldn't breathe. Oh, you're allergic to cat. Literally could be net closed up is churn. I couldn't think I couldn't breathe on Benadryl. There was nothing funny. It was horrific and there were to be a just tapes that came out VHS. Never even DVD's and this Guy Tom. Hated me so much, and he was a highly respected television credit, and probably a really nice guy, but he hated my guts, and our hated what I did, and he went and took out I was on the front page of the calendar section in the La Times, which is like the front page of the arts in New, York. Times and it just said Bob Sagged. America's funniest home videos video. You went out of his way to find. It's like finding microfiche. You know it's like finding. He made fun of my work on VHS. Cassette I wanted to go time I was allergic problems, but wait you wake up on a Sunday. Add your color pictures on the front. Some people say any prisoners good press out, VIC, so but I agree it was horrible. I was terrible, but I begged to get out of there, but they didn't let me get out of there. They insisted they should. Should have shutdown called sick day. Have done today where I could breathe, but it doesn't matter I mean they don't read it, but a Sunday morning and you're having your coffee and you open the paper and it's the whole damn, but everybody's woken up and seen I mean I got a phone call the producer Saturday morning. The movie we got is crushing in the theater and I went to go. See I'll tell you what it was. It was dirty work nor McDonald on with seven movie theater. In nineteen, Eighty, eight in La at seven theaters and the movie was. A huge lasts a cult favorite. Now at it was just unbelievable how we got hit and the next morning. That producer call sorry, but he didn't do. Well Take Care Man, and that was the last time I talked to him until I was late for lunch. In these storms away from that you do remember these negative thing, but the point is if you give them energy I'm telling you about them because it happens everybody. There isn't anybody that doesn't happen to, and then if you stay positive and you. You just. Do you gotTa do great work? You just have to do great work and do everything he can do great work, and that'd be proud of yourself that you did as good as you could possibly do that so I think it's interesting that you wanted to work. And now it almost sounds like you need it and say this exactly, but you got more than what you wonder. You became almost famous like you walk into a place. I got famous for being one thing and people love to pigeonhole. Stand up once pigeonholing a terrible thing to do because it's horrible for the pigeon, but it's you know there's a lot of to do. And I got plenty of time as far as I'm concerned, some people go you know fifteen year old will go. You're so old Nagla well. Why don't you try yourself? My Age I'll bet you'll look like a skaggs now I don't say that to A. A fifteen year old I would never say that, but give up now. I mean I have friends. I always namedrop Norman Lear. Who's ninety seven and he's amazing is producing one day at a time for pop network, and it's his old show that was on CBS and it's all a Tina cast now, and it's an amazing thing that he made it happen. He had signed a three year deal. So, when he's one hundred, the deal will have to be redone. Good for his. I think he's close to Jesus. He is one of the coolest people and most wonderful friends and most brilliant people that could answer all your questions. Because what he taught me would. He teaches me. Is All we and you hear a lot by anybody's smart Eckhart totally anybody you read of any intelligence. L. We have is this moment and now it's this month and if you go and project, what's GonNa Happen, if this, or how did that person get that? You're just wasting your. Your brain, you're not even using any using nothing good about your brain. You can try to figure it out with the neurotic mind. You can try to figure out why things didn't work and try to go. How can I correct that so i? Don't do it again and here. I am in a sixty three about to sixty four and I'm going okay, so don't interrupt people Bob and is wrong with that. It's me going admitting my stuff and Gonads I gotTa Stop Doing Shit you know. This is the Jordan Harbinger show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by better help online counseling. It's extraordinary times, and if you're dealing with stress, anxiety or depression, well, first of all, you're not alone. You're in good company. Better help offers licensed professional counselors who are trained to listen and help the last thing you need. During this time to have to go through a list of insane. yelp reviews to find someone who's GonNa. Listen to you, simply fill out a questionnaire to help assess your needs get matched with a counselor in under forty eight. Secure video phone chat tech sessions unlimited messages don't worry about that, and if you don't like your counselor and it happens request new one at anytime additional charge, you can get professional help when you want wherever you are in pretty much every day time zone on the globe Peter. Better help was an affordable option to our listeners. Get Ten percent off your first month. With discount codes, Jordan joined the over one million people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. In fact, so many people have been using better help. They are recruiting additional counselors in all fifty states. Get started today at better help. Dot Com slash Jordan that is better H E l, P dot com slash Jordan talked with therapist online and get help. This episode is also sponsored by Progressive Insurance Fun fact, progressive customers qualify for an average of six discounts when they sign up for progressive auto insurance discounts for things like enrolling an automatic payment, insuring more than one car going paperless, and of course being safe driver plus customers who bundle their auto with home, or at Renter's insurance save an average of twelve percent on their auto. There are so many ways you can save when you switch, and once you are a customer progressive. You get unmatched claim service with twenty four seven support online or by phone. It's no wonder why more than twenty. Twenty, million drivers trust progressive, and why they've recently climbed to the third largest auto insurer in the country. Get a quote online at progressive, DOT COM in as little as five minutes and see how much you could be saving auto insurance from Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, home and Renter's insurance, not available in all states, provided and service by affiliated and third party insurers discounts vary, and are not available in all states and situations. Stay tuned after the show. We've got trailer of our interview with Jack. Barsky. Former KGB spy who posed as an American in a live version of A. A Hollywood movie. This is one of our most popular episodes of the show. Jack Not only dodged the FBI for decades, but also defected from the Soviet Union secretly becoming a real American will learn how spies were recruited and trained during the Cold War and what Skills Jack used to assimilate seamlessly into American culture. That trailer is after the cut coming right up. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps US going to learn more and get links to all of those great discounts. Just heard so that you can check out those amazing sponsors for. For yourself visit. Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals and don't forget. There is a worksheet for today's episode so that you can make sure to solidify your understanding of the key takeaways. The link is in the show notes at Jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, go to Jordan harbinger dot com slash subscribe subscribing to the show is absolutely free. It just means that you get. All of the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player so that you don't miss a single thing and now for the conclusion of today's episode. It's got to be kind of tough to look back at a career that so public right because any mistake you made is magnified in a way. That doesn't happen for normal people in anything you do in public like you're talking about before you walk in. All the eyes are on you from everyone I mean. Do you just try to ignore that or what? I usually try to be pleasant about it. Always made fun of Oh Bob features more famous than he is. And I would walk into a restaurant and a few flashbulbs go off, and that George Clooney would walk in and billion flashbulbs. Go off, and then Stamos goes now what you calm down a little bit. Nobody really cares about you as a guy. You're right. You're right, but I'm totally different now. I'm common my skin now. I just changed at therapy worked on myself a lot. I? Don't know if it's evident during this thing. If I'm so calm why the hell was that? Clicking this chapstick demonstrate? This is what you're hearing. You're hearing it in a much slower clicking a hypnotic pattern for the listener so i. put your listeners to bed. That's right or well. Get that way I bet you're not that dirty talker or a bit. You don't go into Groucho Marx kind of lascivious comments, probably not as much on the show because you know I'm like first of all. It depends half the time. There's a scientist on here and if I say something that's ridiculous, they'll just be like. Wow, how the hell did I get booked on this show with this idiot, you know when you learn from scientist. What scientists have you had? Armley? What have we learned oh? Man? I mean I've had quite a few. There's one coming on pretty soon. Named Kelly mcgonigal's she. Had Neil degrasse. Tyson and Bill Nye the science guy of course, but like I've probably mechanical. She's talking about why. Stress is actually good for you. If you actually harness it and use it right, but then I've got a doctor coming on his talking about how in China. They're actually executing people who do this following Gong, which is like a religion, they execute them, and they sell their organs, and it's not like a conspiracy theory. It's like a real thing that's your. Body parts not their instruments right, not the musical instruments their body parts. Yeah, it's just crazy so I try to get kind of off. Topic are off beats people to discuss things. There's another guy coming on WHO's talking about? He's going to break down. How fake psychics look like? They actually are psychic. He's going to break down the tricks. They use and sort of exposed that. That for the audience, so I tried to get a lot of variety of personalities on here, but science based information. Have you had as possible a lot of stuff? Involving the whole pandemic yeah I had the former head of the CDC on the show I had the guy who works for the World Health Organization chasing influenza around the world and trying to prevent pandemics. He's like I'm not. It was like a month before corona and he goes I. Do you know I'm really worried? We're GONNA. Get an animal based virus that we don't have immunity to and like weeks later we had corona virus. It was crazy I don't like maybe I'm alone here, but I don't like corona virus and the upside is. It's really easy to book. People who would normally have better things to do like there's in an alternate universe where there's no corona virus Bob you're on full house season number thirty eight and you don't have time to do. The Jordan harbingers no time because doing a show that I did thirty years ago. That's right. And the last episode of the new season, which comes out June second. I'm on a lot. That's why it's the best one. Yeah, while they saved up their budget for that. You play kind of a parody of yourself entourage. Is that a fair statement? Yeah Doug Allen wrote that with all my friends at work on that show. Originally, it was supposed to be a guy who's more down on his luck, and my wife got my house took my house and the other house and then I said I can't do that. That's not even accurate. I'm not playing with the MU show with where he's always. So many Abo- Jack Horsemen. Sound loose. I'm not that Guy I've got. Be Like I've got more money than anybody. You know I'm happy about everything she can have it all. That was how we dug out to make you. The ball is. Kicked curse out much but. He did yeah, you can't. I can't curse. You can do whatever you want. Yeah, it's a little late to tell me I mean that's. Yeah, that's true. What are you gonNA do tonight is. Are you cooking or is your cooking? Yeah, my wife's either gonNA. Cook order some Sushi you know. How do you order Sushi during this? You'll have sent in. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, delivered you talk about how do I ordered Sushi, you have delivered right, but it Sushi so you trust raw fish during this. Well Yeah I mean. You don't get coronavirus from raw fish juicier point now, I mean it's not a fish. No, but we don't have wet markets in downtown. La Right. No, we don't at least not with like bats, pangolins and other stuff that you haven't heard of now. What the hell happened I don't know if we'll ever know I. Don't know what happened to you. I think it was probably the wet market. There's a lot of conspiracy theories out there. Oh It's engineered in a lab I. Don't believe any of that I think this is pure human negligence and stupidity and things. We shouldn't be eating things. We shouldn't be eating and a weird cover up by the Chinese Communist Party because they don't want to admit that they're wrong because it makes them feel bad about themselves or like. MAKES THE COUNTRY LOOK bad? You know the lose face as they call it in Chinese and they don't want to do that. And so we ended up with this pandemic, which is ruining people's lives unless you're a Yutz like you or me? Who's got a job? They can do digitally or money from previous career in the bank. Were lucky in that respect I try to remember that you know I heard John Stamos. Tell you that same thing like he feels really bad. And when he's realising how fortunate he really was to be in a position that he's in I feel the same way I do too I'm just most concerned about my kids were in New, York City Brooklyn and in downtown New, York. That's what I'm scared of yeah I'd never do, and they started saying wet market. I just thought it's like where old people go and they can't hold it. When you leave Your House I'm to sort of wrap momentum when you leave your house. Do you remain in in April in previous interviews? Yeah, and twenty nineteen when you were able to leave. The House is part of me. That's like I hope I don't get in. Recognize right now like I just want to go on. About IT I. Hi I'm Bob I? Don't even I've never lost that. That's good. People don't understand what famous for people that walk around. Let's say life I've been famous more by life than not yeah, so, what's the difference you know? It just doesn't mean anything. It's other people while you're famous. Was that like sick? The Chris Farley Show Bureau Paul McCartney. You're with the Beatles and he goes. Yeah, he goes dammit. Why did I say that? You know I'll bet? God you so great, but yeah I just WANNA. Do good work. I just want people to see something I've done and I love that movie. That was so funny I love that special of yours. That was so great or my wife and I decided to show, and that made me feel so good. You know she'd become. I didn't WANNA come. I thought you were going to be this. This guy and get a lot of great feedback on the PODCAST. That makes me so damn happy. It's the best. It's got to be nice to be recognized for that for me I. Put myself in your shoes. As Best I can, and I go I would be almost paralyzed to leave the house in worry that someone's going to show socks, but you have to get over that. Option where you're coming from nobody's anything, mean to me public. That's great. That's really good restores some faith in humanity. Why would they do that I don't know I just. Know, they're happy to see me, I'm fairly well known in the US and Canada and in Japan and Mexico, and in some places, not really in England or in France, but in Spain I'm told I am I haven't been there in Australia treated really nicely I toured there I want to go to New Zealand I. Mean I was in? Scotland. That wasn't recognized. It depends on where your stuff is. Haters don't use these sane choosing. Nice stuff. I mean. It's usually just like for three days ahead. No Internet and these young girls were drive by the house, so I was on the street, trying to send a business email I had one barbs service, no Internet and young girls drove by Volkswagen and we're giggling. Hi Bob. Hi and I'm sitting in a homeless guy on the street man. Shirt all ripped up. Literally literally homeless, I had on saddles torn shorts. I mean it just looked in live there. It was really weird, but people treat me like they know me. Already I'm really lucky. People have asked NYCACC can't compare myself, but people used as Jack Nicholson. What's it like being so well known, and he would say it's like being the mayor. But that's the mayor and old school terms right now. If you're mayor, you might get people yelling at you depending. Worse, but it's like if I was popular in high school, I would have been happier guy and it comes from them. Having asked me or them happiness during some moment in their lives, I guess I just assumed that being famous for a famous person is like twitter for a normal person where you look at it and you go hold. These people are terrible. Why did Did I. Come on here. I don't want to deal with this I guess I. Just figured there were times in your life, whereas like there was a time and I. Bring up this example for reasons. There was like I can imagine. You just wanted to go to a charity event and play like charity, softball or charity, ice, hockey, or whatever it is and people are. Dug it the whole time and I know that that's happened to you because I did that with my friends in the early two thousands when I was young and stupid as opposed to right. Yeah and eventually you turn around. You're like hi. This totally exasperated just like God. This was in Michigan. Was this the redwings was this when they lost those two wonderful players in that memo accident and then day Dave, and I did a celebrity hockey thing I think that might have been in. And I went with my friends, and they got friends were drinking heavily, and they just kept screaming your name. The hatred right now. They just wanted attention from you. To give it. Yeah, it just seems exhausting. No, it's actually it's not even I. Don't even skip a beat. It doesn't mean anything. It's like you suck. I, never hear that. Yeah, I haven't heard that for twenty years. There were a couple shows have done where I was in one theater where I wasn't. I didn't take my half hour. I was working too hard. I was doing gig after Gig and I was doing this one theater and I remember it was going to say what theater was. The WELMONT I believe and I wasn't prepared I was talking to people half hour before. Before, it's showtime. You're not supposed to do that. He the head. You can't get your head to get. You can't work on your stuff. My job is to work on my stuff to get my new stuff up and running, and then present it to the audience and the best way possible, and if you're out talking to people, what do you do it? It's not water cooler time. It's worth time it's like you know. What do you WanNa? See your pilot for the flight doing you know screwing around. What do you do before you go on stage? I'm so curious now because. I spent two hours of prep. I get to the theater. I do a sound check. The doors are locked to the theater i. then go and go in the dressing room I go through all new material. That I'm working on Maybe try to write a song. I'll go through some of my comedy songs, and maybe I'll talk to one of my kids, and by that time it's showtime and my buddy. Buddy often Mike young or go up or in different cities. It's symptoms. Someone else in Canada. It was going to be taught. Alan, it will be again but I. Mean I haven't opener. Friend Mike Young's really good comedian than tour with, and then we kinda talk about jokes. I goes this funny. Is that funny and that's showtime so this one gang? It must have been fifteen years ago, but the Walmart. One GIG after another every night, a different city and I just wasn't good, and I wanted to impress. These guys 'cause they'd been on a show called strange days on a it was just weird. I wanted to crest these guys. I talk to them over the show I should have worked on my show so somebody in the audience. So that's the same stuff you did last time and it was like five. Five minutes of the same stuff they were wrong. I mean they should have gotten what they I. My job is to entertain. Those people that's my job is to make them have one of the best nights they could have and bring the room together in a unity of laughter, and maybe some heartfelt emotion. You know it must be a really awesome gift to not only have people treat you like they know. Know you but generally have positive feelings towards you because you were like. They're cool Sitcom Dad and also like remember that positive time in their life and that you made them laugh and you get to see i. mean there's just so much. That's a blessing from that I guess I figured there was another side. That was a lot of pressure to be someone that. Maybe you don't feel like you are, but. But it sounds like you've you've become one with them. I have to love my lights. I love my life. People treat me wonderful. I mean I can't think of going somewhere where people treat me terrible and I wouldn't go there anyway. Yeah, fans are fans. They're Nice I always find it weird. Some gets all out of breath and excited like they're meeting like like when I met Muhammad, Ali or something. Getting like that like I'm sorry, I'm just some guy. Sitcom and I tell jokes you know, and then there's certain people that are the big stars in the world that you and you feel like you're knowing your whole lives talk Jake They're genuinely great people and they exist. Bob This is a this is great I could talk your ear off. I know I mean imagine this shows popular I have no doubt your show will be popular to this shows. You shows incredibly popular because there wouldn't have gone on it. 'cause I'm I'm a star and that's how I function. I only talked to. You can help my career in a big way I don't know I. Keep doing it I know what you're doing three days a week. It feels great. Yeah, as you're lucky to job I. Don't look at it as a job because I'm naive to it I'm a Newbie. You know why it says it's the first podcast out by comedian ever. In laurels like it's the conflict festival on the poster yeah. But, it seems to be doing well I'm getting a lot of Nice feedback. Great guests, coming up and John Mayer and wow Jim Gaffe again and I mean so. Many people have that I just love set Greens. Really quite. Bryant bogged my friends. It's really my friends, and then talking to the public, that's what I love doing, and I'm going to show coming up with just a monologue righteous. Talk for an hour, so you know I can do that I. Mean I didn't talk enough? That's okay. I'm here every week three times so. They do take calls I could. We could definitely do that. We have an advice segment every Friday where we get advice for people that right in with specific stuff it would be really funny to have you call in and give advice for certain things I would love it. I would love it very much I. Want to be the new Dr. Ruth I want them all to be sex questions. We get your ex questions for sure we can do that. There were tons of those answers either face up or face down. That's the answer it's. That's how it always was. That grew up on love line with Dr. That show quite a bit and I was so embarrassed with the questions they would get here was being. Some are rated comedian. Whatever people thought? They would ask terrible things. I think I've got a fisher. It's like Oh my God. I can't be here. You know, and that's before you had google image search imagine if he had Google image magic yet anything Oh. My God what world and Well we got through this without them. DIGGING UP! My Internet cable so I'm excited. I'm excited about that I. Wish I could meet and shake your hand, but who are we kidding I? Read your book I probably would've caught something. No I'm clean I'm clean I haven't done anything to abet well I've do look forward to media at some point. Hopefully, we can do something else again. I look forward to what I'm doing standup. Also you talk to Michael. Michael. Michael Barr publicist, some guy that under a bridge talked to Mike about a thing gonNA. Give you a quarter pound Hobie like lunch meat, but Schober your wife get a sitter? Do all that stuff. Thanks to Bob for coming on the show. He's got his own podcast. Now it's called. Bob Sagi- here for you will link to that in the show notes. Rodney Dangerfield gave him the advice to just go like a tank and go. He did making one of the most iconic careers in comedy so much so that people from Russia and Japan say things like I learned English from full House which by the way if you think about it that means that grown men from the Far East are walking around saying things like you got it dude probably in that. That little Michelle Voice Sky, has decades more media, experience and I couldn't see him, but he could see me as this for me, was like some sort of military training exercise for interviewing where I'm giving a handicap. It's like okay, but you can't use your right arm or it, so he's coming at me with everything and I can't even see him, so he's making fun of me. There's a lot of asides that we actually had to edit out because they were a little extra some of them we left in, but he's just going after me and if If. You couldn't guess by the way by the story. He wanted to avoid so there was a doll in the room on the set of full House and it was a kid sized doll, and they use it for blocking so like walking around talking with somebody. Use It to rehearse. You're not just talking to thin air and he was clearly pretending to do. Some dirty stuff pretended to bang. This kid sized doll. He's making the crew laugh. He's making the other folks on the set, but on a Sitcom. If you've never been to a taping, there are. Are monitors everywhere in the audience can see everything going on on the set, and there are just monitors everywhere in the back room where the kids parents are because child actors, the parents are usually on you know housing snacks, and talking to each other, the entire audience, and the parents of other child actors could see what was going on. So this was a not the highlight of his career. He really did not want to tell that story, but I told him that I was gonNA. Tell you in the closed because you can't leave us hanging like that. For this episode in the show notes transcripts in the show notes, there's a video of this interview on our Youtube Channel, and yes, you will see both him and me. We fixed it in post as they say, and you can find that video on our Youtube, channel, at Jordan Harbinger Dot, com slash YouTube. I'm trying to teach you how to connect. If you would just listen to me, go to our core, Jordan harbinger dot com slash course it's free. It's about digging the well before you're thirsty. Build that network before you need it even if it means starting from scratch, don't procrastinate or stagnate, and you know it's. It's true because it rhymes. These drills take just a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff twenty years ago. Find it all for free at Jordan. Harbinger Dot com slash course and most of the guests on show in that you here on the show there in the course they're doing. It's good advice. Just take it. In fact, speaking of building relationships, you can reach out, and or follow me on social, and at Jordan Harbinger on twitter and Instagram at me on. Lincoln might just become your connection. If I can get the damn thing to work I, think I invited to many people you could. Could add me now, but I can't add you back at can confirm it. That's all so you have to add me if you WANNA connect I'm not sure why this show is created in association with podcast one. This episode was produced by Gen. Harbinger J Sanderson is our engineer. The ads are fun. Because the Peter Ordering show notes and worksheets by Robert. Fogerty music by Evan, Viola and I'm your host Jordan Harbinger, our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. I'm not a doctor, not a therapist. I'm obviously not a comedian, so do your own. Own Research before implementing anything you here on the show and remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting pheno, somebody who I duNno is to come up into comedy scene or just as a huge full House Fan I dunno share this with people who like good entertainment. Hopefully you find something great in every episode, so please do share the show with those you love in the meantime. Do Your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. I was untouchable. I was above the law. I was always bypassing customs and passport control so young person that really feels good because I never liked rules. How did you flip to eventually becoming full American I know they tried to call you home. Can you take us through that? They called me back as an emergency departure. They've done this past quote back in agent. And as soon as they step on Soviet soil, they are jailed or executed. I was stalling Soviets in and one day they send one of their residents agents and he said to me you've gotta come home or else you're dead. It was a threat. I decided. I would defy them. On not returning I will not betray any secrets, and please give the money away account to my trouble family. Wow and. Tell us how you got caught. Because the stories just not complete until you like you. Said had to face your past I was stopped on the other side of tollgate was a state trooper. Like to check your license and registration, and could you step out of the car? I step out of the car is still not having a clue. What's going on out of the corner of my eye? ME, from the fellow introduce themselves go Riley FBI, and he showed me this badge. We would like to talk with you the first question I asked BMI under arrest, and the answer was no, then I said. What took you so long? For, more from Jack Barsky including how Jack was finally caught by the FBI, and what happened after that checkout episode to eighty five of the Jordan harbinger show.

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Chris Hadnagy is a human hacking social engineer

Unstructured Interviews

53:28 min | 4 months ago

Chris Hadnagy is a human hacking social engineer

"Today's episode was also a video interview. If you WANNA check it out on Youtube look up air- cuddly or go to YouTube dot com slash Eric. Unle there. You will find other video interviews and even more special alive stream where you have an opportunity to chat with previous guests this week. I have coming up James Fallon. He's the professor who discovered that his own brain scans implied that he was a psychopath. Last week I had Jack Barsky. Who's the KGB agent living undercover in the United States? For over ten years he actually was undiscovered for sixteen years and holds the record of the longest undiscovered mole. Living here now for today. Bring you. Chris had nagy who is a social engineer. Extraordinaire my name is Eric. And this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today I'm joined by I. Guess you'd say Hacker extraordinaire or social engineer. Extraordinaire what I appreciate is this guy does what I think everybody is vulnerable to everybody's worried about firewalls and things like that but he's more likely to walk into your server room and just take your computer out in a bag and put it in his car. How're you doing Chris? Nagy I'm good. How are you? I'm doing great now? Chris one thing I have to point out. I've done some reading read. Your book did some research and I've come to a conclusion. What's that if anybody calls me the name of Paul I'm hanging up. I'm sorry okay. Let me I apologize to all pulse because Except except for policy during I don't apologize to him at all because he deserves anything he gets. But anyone else at Saint Paul I I apologize for you getting hung up on for the rest of your life. I'm very sorry and so what does that. Where did the name come from? He's Paul it was So interestingly enough when I was a kid and I was escape border Constantly Skate at places that were illegal and the cops would come and it was really funny would come and they would say give us your name and each one of us would have a standard set of three or four names that we would give because they would write these names down to the book and if they came back to that bank a week later and you say oh my name is so and so. They looked up in the book. And if you were there twice you've got fined and hall was a name I use but I just made up different last names so it was always Paul. Paul Paul this you know so just Just kind of a kind of just stuck Paul and Logan where my two names I used. there's a little tidbit for that. Not many people know. I use Logan all the time and Paul and then they became the standard name. So when I got into this career I use those names as part of my pretexts now. I asked that because I have undercover. Fbi agents on and they actually tend to use their actual first names. Yeah because it's very easy to screw up Yup and if you're walking along and they say hey Paul. Hey Paul. Are you going to respond naturally? Yeah and that's a great point so I tell people that work for me all the time that the only time you should use a fake name is if it is something you react to and and fortunately for me those two names. I've used so much through my life that I actually do react to them. So it's it's it's made that a little easier but I do agree with you one hundred percent. I would not use a name. Like Charles are Eric because I've never never used those names so if I started saying. Hey I'm eric. And then you said Eric I would be looking away not wondering I'd wondering who you're talking to exactly and that's always a worry and they even get to the point where they tried to have the same number of syllables and they're fake. Last name will because you wanted to sort of rhyme or just feel. It's the cadence. Makes the big difference in our in our memories. Yeah if I was going to use a different name I might pick Aaron as you just because it's close enough. I'm like yeah but now you I'm trying to figure out your career trajectory you've been out. This seems since the nineties yes? So Korea Trajectory is an interesting question Wow Not one that many people ask me when when it comes to interviews your chef. I was so when I started off like a young young person. You know like normally person did everything I mean I. I made surfboards. I delivered pizzas. You know. Did whatever the heck I could do to make money and then I found out. I had this knack for talking my way into getting jobs so when I was seventeen I was the vice landlord for a department complex because of delivering papers at this Guy's Office. He was depressed and he was talking about family problems and I listen to him and at the end of the conversation I said Hey. Why don't you go take care of your family all stay here? Run Your Business and I don't know why the heck he said yes but he did and at seventeen. I was the vice landlord for twenty five unit apartment complex and then a year later. He said I don't WanNa come back and you sell it. I don't know how to sell anything he's can you learn. I read a book on sales. I sold his apartment complex for a couple of million dollars. It was at that point. I'm like Oh this is kind of interesting you know I got into. That was boy. Well I don't know if I tell you I don't know I. I was seventeen so at the same time I was in college and I wrote a war dialer which I did not know right. I wasn't militias back in the day back in the day. Okay now I sound really old macking acting. We're going GONNA do real code uphill both ways you know it. We weren't trying to ruin things so I wrote this program that dial the phone number. It played a series of Of tones that told the phone to shut itself off for a couple of minutes and then hung up the dials. Another number and I- threaded it through to twenty four hundred Baud Modems. Oh Yeah that tells you some serious speed there and had like sixteen numbers. Dial per modem purr purr like ten seconds and shut down a counties phone system is going to end what mommy what we don't know Dialer I. The the it was it was it was. Can I do this? Can I actually shut off of a phone system but not thinking it would literally shut the system down thinking that people would get busy numbers busy signals for a few minutes and then it would come back little that I know it was it? Shut down the counties phone system so so thank service on a phone system yes. Yeah very early. Denial Service cops came to the college They asked who did. It said it was me at the time again. No laws and they went yet. That was bad. Don't do that again and I went note by won't and then they left and the Dean said Where embarrassed that was terrible. Get out and I left and went. Well this is interesting. I WanNa know more so from that point. You know interested in computers but didn't see a future so then you know I did sales. I sold insurance. I sold whatever. I became a programmer. Became a chef as you mentioned And then I got back into. It and became the Security Admin and server administrator for this company that made stainless steel products and And talked my way into becoming a negotiator for stainless steel in India and China for this company and was traveling the globe negotiating stainless steel prices. Which is just the most ridiculous job on the planet and got bored and then went and got a job doing Vulnerability assessments from their met. Offensive security took the pen testing backtrack courses that was called back then And got a job with offset and was there ops manager for a few years and then started social engineer. Llc So doing that for eleven years now now you had mentioned that you're developing a course and essentially your development turned into online material. So so dash engineer dot org if I recall and that was a wily who discovered you one of the publishers. Yeah Governor and reach out to you and you mentioned it was a mix publisher. Yeah so at the time. Mid-next publisher. So I I had. I had decided to write a course for se. Matty said you can't write a course without a framework and there was no frameworks online anywhere for social engineering framework but nothing to do with Se. So I developed a framework based on my library of books and went through them and said here's a skills I used when the framework came out. I just you know I was a hacker. Wasn't really thinking about you know else so I I didn't plan on writing a book or anything. Mitnick publisher had saw the framework out to me and said. Would you write a book on Social Engineering and I said no? I'm not an author. No thanks but no thanks and didn't didn't didn't end up taking that deal at first and then it was like you're stupid. Call her back right that book so I did. Cornerback ended up writing a book. That is social engineering. Art of human hacking which I tell everyone do not read it. If you haven't don't read it it's not a good book. Read the newest version raid the science of human hacking. It's a eleven years updated and has much more science in it and Has Not many errors like the first edition But wrote that book and I gotTa Give that book some credit because it was due to that book that my business started someone. That book came out. I had companies calling me and saying hey you know you want to consult with us for SAP. And I was like yeah. Sure I'd love to At the time I am not saying this as a humble brag or anything. This is just the way it went. There was no industry surrounding social engineering. So I was figuring out. How do I charge people? What what do I charge? How do I do this and I was just winging it? I was like literally finger in the wind and going. I think this sounds like a good price and people be like okay. You know. We'll try it and I'm like what I got my Linda. My first giant contract with the bank and ended up working with them Still working with them for years and years and years and that started my company and It was just me and my living room And then now we have sixteen employees. And where you know. Solely focused on social engineering still Everything from the physical side to fishing fishing's fishing all the all the other. Yeah it's been a while run well a former guest of the show and I'm a huge fan of the guys Christopher lockhead and he writes about and preaches. Something called category creation. And that is actually what you did. Is You found your own. Category and the ideal about a category creator is the category King or Queen will own about eighty percent of the market in a given category. Because they own it and what he teaches is. Don't be better be different interesting. I actually really like that. Thank you because oftentimes people have asked. They said you know do you. Do you think you're the best at and I constantly meet people people that work for me. That are better at the very skills that I created as a service so I have a couple of services that don't exist anywhere else on earth and we do them here and I brought people in trained them and they blow me out of the water. Doing those things are not the best at it. I mean I got some people that work here. Now that are just mind blowing. How good they are at the skills that that I that I I taught as a here. I'm GONNA teach you to do this. And they take it from there stratosphere and I'm still sitting here going. Wow what the heck. I didn't even think you can do that thing same with the SEC. The DEFCON CONSTANTLY. Sitting there amazed and going. Wow that was new. I never saw someone do that. I'm going to steal that you know and and take something as a skill set so I love what you just said because that is true. It's not always about being. The best is just being different. At the time there was nobody that was solely focused on social engineering. And I got a funny story on that I remember you know I was doing some side work and I had this business idea to do Soli. Ese So I come home. When I said to my wife. Look I WANNA do this thing. I want to start a company. I want to call it social engineer. I want to focus only on social engineering and and just I want to have a business that does just as human side of security and she goes okay. How many people are doing? And how much money do they make and I said well. I can't answer the second question because I don't know how much they make because we would be the only ones doing it and she goes. Well then how do you know? It's going to be successful. And I said I absolutely don't have no clue said I just want to try it. I have a feeling that I think it's GonNa work and you know she said Can i? Can I think about it? She did and I still this day. I have like the best wife on the plan of those done on the washy supporting me. And she's like. Yeah let's let's try. Let's try together. Let's do it and you know we went launched it and man. I've never looked back on the non still to this day. Kinda wake up and pinch myself I go with. I do this for a living. I get paid to do this. Well that's awesome and maybe you were the first case of actually selling it as a service now. I read the book about Mitnick Cabinet. Nick and I really should say Kevin Mitnick's we can identify him and I we consider him. Probably the first widely known social engineer criminal. Yeah if you WANNA go back further you can do like Viktor. Ludwig sold the Eiffel Tower. He sold the Brooklyn Bridge Con. Dao Capone look and say that those were some original essays. But when you WANNA talk about like human hacking from a technological standpoint mitnick is the granddaddy right and we all looked to his example. Anyone in this field looks to his example. The difference was he wasn't doing it as a service and I don't even think it knowing Kevin now like I'm actually friends with him. He's on a malicious guy. I don't think he was doing what he did back in the day to hurt people. He was curious. He had that hacker curiosity and he wanted to learn how these new fangled no cellphones worked and he used his skills to to do that. And then once it became account mouse game where he was fleeing from the FBI and he was able to listen to another conference calls. I think then stepped over that line. Derogates yeah and he got caught and then you know the the bad part is how the government handled that after convincing a judge that he can whistle the codes for nuclear missiles and he gets locked in solitary confinement for a year That's horrific but no one deserves that but I would agree with you. Kevin is one of the originators when it comes to understanding. How human hacking works from on technology and used against technological companies? WanNa run that by you actually because really i. There's a couple of things there's blue team. Red Team Black Hat White Hat. That gets kind of confusing guessing. That blue team in White House are synonymous. Yes a blue team. Is The people in your company. Who were protecting your company. Blue Team is like those folks who were there in white hat is someone who uses hacking skills like a pen tester but doesn't step over that line into gray or black right so they're actually the people who attack but they do it for good reasons you know it's Kinda like the difference between A surgeon and a murderer you know a surgeon people the bug bounty people. They're searching for bugs but they're not doing it to humiliate the company pen. Testers are white hats right. I consider myself a white hat because I hack humans on a hack organizations. I break into them but I do it for the right reasons. I do it because they pay me to. Also because I'm trying to protect you or a blue team is inside. The company and their job is to keep the hackers out there to protect where the gray hats are on the good side. But they don't have a problem stepping over that line every now and then for the better good and then black. Cats are the guys who are on the other side of the fence. Right there. The guys who don't care about the morals or the scribbles and they just. They accomplish their goals at any cost. Well you can be a little bit of a gray hat when it comes to the innocent lives foundation. Yeah so that's that's a great eliminator so When when you look at that line for a corporate client let's say social engineer. Llc where white hat completely right because we follow a scope. We have rules. We don't break the law. We don't step over that line. Our goal is to is to protect you and help you. Even if that means that we don't always do everything that a bad guy would do. Sometimes people ask that question. Well wouldn't a nation state do this? Yes but I'm not going to kidnap your teenage daughter to teach you a lesson. I mean that that I'm not going to traumatize a human so I can teach you that you're gonNA roll with Aleph. Those those lines are blurred. Because now my target is a person who is actively preying on child. My target is a person who's hurting a child or profiting from the the hurt of a child so now my lines. I don't really care about your feelings as much as for the Predator. Your feelings aren't my utmost concern. So if your feelings get hurt while I'm searching for you I don't care and you might actually enjoy depending on. What kind of creeping won't say that publicly recording but you cannot confirm or deny the allegations that before me once my question that I was thinking about when I especially does listening to your techniques and everything and you're pretty good guy you have a family and a conscience and you worry about stuff? I speculate that you have an easy time. Conning people for your job because you know you're a good guy. If you were actually doing this with an ill intent maybe your conscience would bother you. I liked that thinking so this happens when we hire new people so new people come in and we put them on fishing rights. Another calling these companies. And they're getting these people. Tell them their deepest darkest secrets their password. Social Security numbers and and they feel really guilty and And my help with them. My discussion with my new people is always to think about the purpose right. So if the end goal was that we were going to. Hack Eric and then Eric was gonna get humiliated that his company and they were boss was gonna come in and go look dumb. You are. Yeah you should feel a little guilty but if the end goal is hey let's teach eric. Hey Man we just we got this call the other day he said he was Paul from an it. He wasn't Paul from. It was actually dude named Chris and a damn evil. Yeah Paul Guy and and let me give you some education how you cannot fall for this now if you think if you reframe it where you say. I'm here to help Eric. I want to help Eric be a better person to be more secure. I want to help them be better for his family's jobs. Is You know his parents as kids. Now all of a sudden you feel good about doing your job so I think what you said is pretty accurate because because I know that my goals are ultra listrik. I know that I'm here to help people that doing my job is. I compare it to you. Know of course less Education and skill but I compare it to a surgeon. A surgeon may really enjoy the thrill of cutting person open but it's not because their sadistic in the enjoy hurting people. They Wanna cut that person open to help them. So I really enjoy the human hacking but I do it because I know at the end of the day. I'm helping the persons that I hack and a not because I enjoy the thrill of watching you be humiliated or shamed so even though it's a game is monitoring stops and robbers with a hundred percent. I mean we break in the places when we were allowed to travel we break in the places that are armed and that is a real that is a game you know we are breaking into a place and hoping to God. We don't get shot. You know it is it is. It is a serious game anytime we are hacking company. And we need you to fall for our scam so we can hack your company so yeah it's a it's a game now. I'm going to jump around again. Because that's fine unstructured. Hey remember the name of the show. How unique drive that point. I'd like to know from your friend Robin. Drake how is it? You got emotionally hijacked in the first class guys taught together in Seattle. And you did do your research okay. So I had a student that decided in the middle of class to When we were talking about framing we were talking about framing in class. We were talking about How framing can be used for good or bad and he says oh I have an example of framing and I always encourage students that speak up. Talk out loud and he said it's it's kind of like how the Jews made up the Holocaust and I went like and I have a friend. He's passed now because he was older but he was in a concentration camp. I saw the Tattoo on his honor. I I know that it was real. He told me stories of what they did to him. There on that wasn't made up. You know there was that you can go to Germany. You can see them It appalled me that in a room full of other people that he didn't know that even if a he thought it was humorous even if he thought it was just a joke that he would joke about something that there's a good likelihood that someone in that classroom had a friend or family member who died by the hands of the Nazis. So to say that was I. I allowed my emotions to get the best of me and I got hijacked and all I saw was anger and I reacted angry and it was it was just bad and Robyn. Thank God for Robin. Because he thought he saw the whole body language change he saw my hands go from closed he saw the he saw it and he said. Okay fifteen minute break and he pulled me out of the classroom and he's like okay. Chris we gotTa Talk. You know like and he's like I saw what happened. That guy was wrong. We should pull him aside. We should tell him it was inappropriate. We should tell him if he says it again. He's going to be asked to leave. But you cannot lose the whole class. By letting your anger get the best of you. And it was a huge lesson for me because he was saying. You are justified in your anger. Your feelings are okay. You were actually righteous in your anger but acting on it is going to hurt everybody and for me. That was a massive lesson. Because he wasn't saying hey don't feel that way you know you're you're dumb for feeling that what he was saying. You're okay to feel that way but you have to control how you act on it and for me now going back. This is eleven years eleven year old eleven year ago Chris was. Whoa that was mind blowing like wait so today we see all this anger and stuff happening on the Internet. And it's like you know what? Yeah Okay maybe you're justified in feeling the way you do but control how you react. What a massive less than that was just. Because you're righteous in your anger doesn't mean you have righteousness in the way you act an awesome. He awesome he learned that lesson early on Yup and I read about in his book and it really stood out to me because he had like buttered up somebody and he was all like me. Me Me me too One of the people who's trying to recruit and the guy's like yeah. I'll see you at whatever time didn't show up and then his supervisor or partner told him yeah well. I kind of made it all about you. So he didn't show up and you know what don't beat yourself up on it because then it's all about you still. I love that. That's a great story and it was good about Robin what. I really appreciated that. Him as a teacher a mentor for me was that we reacted similarly for different reasons right so so he was able to take a lesson from his life where it was me me me me and apply it to me where. I wasn't doing that but I was allowing emotion to get the best to me in an angry situation so my issues are not like Robbins where it's always me me me me but I let I let strong emotion take over and it makes me react. Sometimes in a way that could be negative for the group in so robin seeing that was able to take his life lesson. Go Hey man you know. Chill out act differently. That's great then that brings me to appoint because you had mentioned how he's kind of a mentor to you and intellect Chris Lockhead who I brought up earlier practically mentor to me. You seem to have some really strong mentors. Like you have Robin Greek. And you have Dr Paul Ekman. How did you meet Robin? Because he was still in the FBI just going by the years. Yeah when you met him. What introduced you. How did you establish relationship? So I met Robin through another mentor of mine. Which is Joan of Varo? So I met. I met Joe Navarro on the podcast and I worked really hard to get him to say yes and he came on the podcast and we were talking about repore and during the conversation he said to me. You know you need to meet a friend of Mine Robin. I'm not sure if he can talk to you because he's still part of the FBI but you sound so much like him. Finish Interview Nag. Jody hooked me up with Robin introduced me through email. And then when Joe. Introduce me Robin said well. We gotta get the give permission to do the interview and that was our first. Esi GIG together was to get permission from the FBI for him to come on my podcast so we worked an email together a letter and we got approval and Robin was like Hey. You're good at this and I'm like thanks. Man had him on. The podcast was amazing. We we made the letter so general that the approval blanket so he can come on multiple times. Oh Nice Emmy made it so general that he was able to then come and train with me so our ask was that was able to do all sorts of stuff with me not just one podcast as long in charge that he and I give him donations. I can you know be generous with gift. But he wasn't. He wasn't charging me. So that was perfectly fine and Robin and I worked together for a few years and then as he left the FBI is you know he joined the F. As part of the board now he has a very successful company doing training and He was part of the human hacking conference last year. And we're still friends We talk all the time and you know he's just been one of those great mentors along the list of what you said like Joe and and Robin and Paul and just been really great mentors for me when you had said okay. I'm not the best of this and that right and I feel like that. Maybe you and I have a similarity there too in the sense. That your connector. Yeah I like that. Yeah I I try you know because right now like what I do with my employees I try to put them together with people that will benefit them from the community from the from the relationships that I built You know the podcast will have used as part of my podcast is getting to know the folks that I interview Not just as people I interview but as friends to get to know them to learn from her. I had this really good friends named talk McIntosh. And he's a he's a famous jazz. Musician is really really old right now but I remember sitting him sitting with him once and asking him as Tom. How did you get so good at what you do because like literally that guy could pick up trombone and he just makes the most unbelievable music come out? It's just it's just amazing. And he said every person. I've ever met in my career that played this instrument. I asked for a lesson I say. Can you take sixty seconds and teach me one thing and I said well Tom. What if what if that person stinks like? What if they're not good? What if they're worse than you and he said and then he said I learned what not to do and I'm like genius and I took that away. I was much younger when I got that lesson from him. I took that away and I said I'm going to do that. I'M GONNA learn from every person I meet and maybe all learn. I'M NOT GONNA act like that guy like I learned something from that due to my class. I learned something I learned two things. I learned one. That kind of humor is inappropriate in a setting. I also learned that that kind of humor makes a visceral reaction some people so I learned a lesson from him right even though I didn't ask for him to teach me what I learned one. And if you look at life and people you meet as you're able to learn these amazing lessons from everyone that you meet then you can walk away from any interaction even if it's negative and go. Hey I got something from that. Well there's even more to it. I mean okay. We're good into body. Language arts human behavior but what you are in essence doing is applying the Ben Franklin effect to explain that. I don't know that one okay. That's it's an old one Ben. Franklin there was another congressman that hated his guts. He couldn't no. They did not get along well. At Ben Franklin went up to him and said you know. I heard you have this amazing library collection. Do you happen to have this book. I would really like the opportunity to read. The guy lent him the book and it established a wonderful relationship because the guy did him a favor which established a baseline that he did. Ben Franklin favors. That's great. I love it so now you could say I've done. Ben Franklin's favors yes but when you go and ask somebody for assist or suspension of Egos how you put it in your book. You are in essence doing this. You're learning from them. And because they did give you this knowledge or they pass it on it they take you under their wing a little bit. Yeah that's great. That's a great lesson you know it's interesting when you said that you were talking. I'm reflecting on some people who have worked with over the years and some people are on my team now and that's how they approached even getting employed here and it's worked so well against me right and I don't mean that in a bad way it's not like an attack but it's worked so well against me in the sense of. I really connect with that person and in a good way and want to to make them the best they can be because of because of that that attitude that you just said when there's a second one to maybe I'm old fashioned but conic comes after my father. I will give to anyone but what pleases me. Most is when. I see that they use the action I gave. Yeah Yeah Yeah so percent off. Validating yes automatically if I tell somebody try this and they do actually try and come back to me. Okay have you another lesson? Yeah even if or even if they did try genuinely and it didn't work for them. I'm still thankful that what I said actually had valued to them and I think that's what helps establish relationship because if you take the time and you give them advice and they bother to actually listen and do it well. That's a respect. Yeah I agree. And I'm sure you've had the opposite effect people ask You well. How do you Blah Blah Blah? Yeah I've had it from both the serious and announcers I've I mean we get probably two three five emails a week. That are like how high I have facebook. I get that one. The most you know how facebook my girlfriend locked me out of her account. How do I hacker account? I I get those all the time and I'm never going to reply to those. But a more serious level we get people who Who WanNa come work here or WANNA learn or one a meant WanNa be mentor and their motives are not altruistic. They're very self-centered roar. Their emission is so high. I'm not against ambition. I want all. My people have ambition but there emissions so high. They're willing to step on the next of others to advance and those people are short lived here. They just don't make in our company because we try to foster this than you just said this attitude of where you can get better by picking up all your teammates and helping them be better and those who do that are those who are here for long periods of time those who will advance your those will have a career forever and those will be great at this industry whether they stay here or not whether they move on or not. They'll be great at this industry but those who just need to succeed regardless of what they do to others you may be good at Esi. I know some people like this. They're really good at social engineering But I can't imagine it's going to be a long lived career or a validating career because in the end of the day something you're GonNa wake up and go wow. I heard a lot of people to get where I'm at today. And that's got to feel bad if it doesn't then I really worry about your moral compass if it doesn't hurt yeah right. Yeah seriously are you are you because if you if it doesn't hurt you if it doesn't make you wonder what kind of person you are then. You may really need to reconsider your your career path. Your field does attract though and it does detract if not sociopathic a lot of people in the spectrum and get that question a lot. Yeah I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm sorry I don't know I get that question a lot. Because it's actually something that really fascinates me people ask like well do sociopathic or psychopathic Tennessee. Help you in this field and I will say it depends on your goal. Do you want to be a social engineer? That's black hat or do you want to be a professional. So if you want to be a professional sociopathic tendencies will not help you. Because empathy is the one thing that will help you be great at this job if you WANNA be amazing at this job as a career then you you have empathetic response and you help others to to become better to become more secure to realize what an attack like that. Gives you your validation that you need whether you succeed or fail as you break it or not but a sociopath may be really good at social engineering but they know ever see the value of the person getting better so I feel like you know I know I know some in the Industry? Who all they care about their their success. They don't care about how what makes other people feel they don't care about how island embarrasses other people that don't care about they laugh when other people's get hacked. They're like Alica dumb they are. They use the phrase known patch forgives depite. It makes everyone feel dumb for falling for these things. It's not. It's not. That kind of lack of empathy does make you better at this job. It may make you a good social engineer but not a good professional social engineer well you in essence as a social engineer are trying to build a relationship yes you personally and those people are trying to crack and hit in and get out. They are not trying to build a long term relationship. They're very happy to burn a bridge because it doesn't matter and fulfill their goal yes or no and its about ego sure about ego right so if if if my goal in this job is to make sure I win. I don't care about your feelings I don't care about it. Why going to name drop again because it's Shall we say signature line but chase us we rise by lifting others is kind of what you were talking about earlier? This is great and I'm cheating into a segue because I said Hey. I'm going to be on with Chris and he pointed out a question that so obvious that I should ask but I had forgotten. What are some covert scams that we've got to look out for right now? Yes so So there's a couple of big ones right. So so he huge huge Cam. Right now is with the with the checks. Everyone's expecting government checks. That are coming. So there'd been delayed they're not coming on time and right now we're at what six and a half million people applied for unemployment Depending on the state you live in some people haven't even got their unemployment checks yet. There are people in desperation. I mean not. Everybody can work from home that everyone has a home based company so there are people who are suffering right now financially. They get a call from someone. They pick up their phone. It's as US government says irs. Answer the phone. Hey You know they say oh I we have your we have your government check your we wanna get it to you. We need details Bam and they're getting a bank account details they're getting a social security numbers. They're verifying home address their verifying email. They're getting information the line them up for further attack. Another huge one. That's happening is they're calling old folks and they're saying You can pre order your Cova. Nineteen at home test We you know it's like twenty nine bucks. Give your credit card number. And they're getting credit card number or the getting banking details Another one for small businesses but the P P P program that the paycheck protection program. They're they're calling small businesses saying. Hey we're calling from the government of we want to help you with your paperwork so we just need some information from you. And they're getting all sorts of personal details including bank account information. These are just three of the many right now. There's some Michigan attacks going out that are saying you know your checks on the way. Click here to track it Kinda thing. there's just so many attacks happening right now because of the pandemic and there are people in desperation. I mean like there are not. They're looking at their bank account. And that's approaching zero. And they're like I don't know how to live. And when you get that call that says. Maybe money's coming you. Kinda shut everything else down in your life. I'll I'll take. I'll take the risk. I had another guest on Morgan right and he had another one. I WANNA pile it here. So everybody can hear them and his was. You'll get an email or something saying that somebody you have been in. Contact with is is positive. Yeah Click this link to find out who? Yeah and not only that. I actually saw this being used as corporate fish. I can't even imagine. Can you imagine taking the the fear that everyone has and this pandemic and you and trying to use it as part of an education program or what if you lost a family member what your grandma died? Because the covert and now you're sitting in your company's e mail box and you get test fish and your first reaction is. Oh Man? My grandma just died from that. And you click the link to make sure it's not one of your family members or friends that you eat lunch with or whatever I mean. It's just appalling. You know it's just to to see that fish at all is horrific but the seat used by corporate America Train. Others is even worse. You are not teaching people you were just playing on their worst fears which is disturbing and I. It's not completely surprising though because again there are people I also work in. It if you hadn't guessed yeah and we have pierce that they just don't think that way it's not even a deliberate thing and I'm not going to say that they're on the spectrum or sociable or anything they're just they really don't think about it. They're not kind kinda like their ten year old kid immaturity and they're just go. Oh I bet. This'll work and their heartless it. I've heard people say well. Shouldn't we test them the way that they're going to be tested? Amac no because and I use this and I know what to horrific example but the bad guys will come in. They'll kidnap your kids. So should I do that too? Should should? Should I still your child and threatened to kill them so you give me the password. Should I do that during our next pen test because the bad guys will do that? No you don't want me to you. Want to break into your house and terrorize your family. Because the bad guys will do state will do that. Would you like me to put a camera into your house and film intimate moments and then use it as blackmail? Because the bad guys will do that. No we can't do everything just because the bad guys do it. My motto is Yes. You have to play the bad guys remember. You're the good guy. So can I talk about it? Can I say hey guys right now? There's a huge fish going around and they're telling you said look see who in your neighborhood has cova nineteen click here. Can you tell people? That's occurring? Can you send an example outlook as a as a screen shot? Say Hey this fish is going around but don't use it as a test. Kenya your warm with right worn them but don't test them with it right now. A lot of your testing. I imagine. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm guessing it's on the level of of of boy you got me. That's really embarrassing. But it's not humiliating. No we we work really hard to never humiliate anyone. Now you know when we're talking about corporate education versus pen testing there's a difference right so corporate education we like. Let's just say you may you May We may say something like We haven't used this but let's let's let's US one that that may be not as as dangerous you know the CDC put out new rules for travel with the Kovic Nineteen. Click here to see those rules. That's not fear inducing. That's something that may get a curiosity. Click so people may like that. I'd be okay with someone using that but saying you know You know we. You're on a recent flight. Some people in your flight have a tested positive. See who that's you just. You'd US induced massive fear in a in a person you know so you you can't do that in the goal for for Corporate. Fishing can never be humiliation firing. So let's say we prove your terrible you click on everything so we fire you and then we replace you with. Joe Is Joe. Joe's a human last. I checked so. Joe Is going to be just as vulnerable as you. You know it. It looks educate you I. Let's work with you if you're reluctant to be educated if you're reluctant to to take the education now maybe we need to talk about your employment here but let's first try before we just blanket. Say Get rid of air because he failed at this test. Let's let's try to fix the problem. I well most people in life. I'll speak for myself but you get burned. You know once burned twice shy. Yeah so if you're testing them. A lot of them are never going to make that mistake again because they got humiliated. Another thing I noticed though. Is You have things like free. Iphones and I hate to say but that one feels fine because it takes it's greed. Yeah so you're you're feeding off of somebody's read and I hate to say it but we need to be spanked a little bit if you grady. Well the issue with with those the good part with those are is so you can take greed in two levels. I'll give you. I'll give you a good one. We use the free all the time because at the end when someone finds out it was a fish. They don't go. Oh man like you got me. So embarrassed humiliated. They were like wow. That was a good one right whereas greed. Let's say we in this has happened. We found someone on a on a hookup site using their corporate email. It would be terrible to now. Fish that person as Beth from your high school. I'd love to hook up with you when you're traveling to New Orleans next week. That would be a horrible Fish because now when he finds out it was a test fish. He's humiliated he's embarrassed. He his his Lust and greed got the best of him. And how do you? How do you live that down as a company in your company is so too because interest while you're doing it by the way maybe he goes home and says you know what I? This is the last fight I ever had and screw you. I'm leaving the broken marriage. It has a you don't even you don't think about it but had this scenario once we had somebody who won at who. Who and this happened that Defcon but I'll talk about the corporate level who threatened of firing. Somebody acted like they were the boss. Threaten to fire someone and there was some serious reprimand because nothing about this. What if that person they are six months late on their mortgage? Their marriage is broken up? Their kids are not doing well. There's at home and now they go home Friday afternoon and they think that they're going to get fired Monday morning. What if they go home? Commit suicide the gun right. You cannot use something that puts someone psychology on the edge of desperation. You can't not if you're a good guy if you're a good guy in this field if you're the white if you're here to help you can't do it. It would be just as unethical as a doctor walking in the room. And telling you you're dead next week unless you take this this this pillar unless you take this surgery. You're dead next week just to get them to take your your latest greatest drug or your or your service. You can't do it. So we that yeah. We have to be very cautious with how utilize those those those pretexts before we wrap things up. I wanted to first off. Say or ask you a book hacking. Humans hopefully coming out early next year man. How you everything you really did. Do your research Yes I do So Twenty twenty one I I we are finishing the book now but I'm super excited about this. I got signed by Harpercollins to write a book. That is basically a collection of the skills that I've That I've built taught and and and kind of tried my hardest to perfect over the last decade but then take those skills out of the element of security. And how can they be used every day? Just by the average person to be the best you can be to become a great communicator to become an empathetic person to become someone who can help your friends and family through trials and problems and that That idea came about about two years ago when I'd never thought it would come to life and then again one of my mentors. Joan of our helped me Get get connected with With a guy who who heard the idea and said this is great. We should try to get this. We landed at harpercollins working with an amazing Ghostwriter that's taking all of the things up here which is very unstructured there. You are again and chaotic and putting them into really intelligent words and I'm just so proud of this book it's just it's I'm reading it and going. Wow this is actually going to help people. It's even helps one person. This is really cool. What makes me think you're trying to put something out like Chinese influence or yeah? I mean that changed a lot of lives. Yes sales or Rama Drake's code. Yeah that's it. It's a fascinating analogy actually. It's funny that when I got asked by my ghost rider. What books influenced you like? What books were ones that you would look at it and say if you can do that and I'm like well of course you know How how to win how to win? Flynn's influence people covey and then looking at At Drake's books but then I said then Chow Dini. It was pivotal because nothing had been done like that. In the history of mankind nobody studied influence. Nobody scientifically dissected influence and. I'm like on the same level when Edmund wrote emotions revealed no one had dissected nonverbal so that level unlike so I can take both of those and I love about child Dini and meant as they write for the layperson. They don't write for the science person so when you read an book even though he's one of Time Magazine's fifty most well-known psychologists in history. You don't read his book and I don't understand a word you just said you read it and go. I get that that makes sense and the same which all Dini it's like you're sitting with your uncle having a chat about something super amazing and unlike that's my mind that's what I want. I want that I wanNA take this collection of sciences and art and put it all together and then give it to a person who knows nothing about social engineering and say you can do. This can do this. Go Out and do it and just be a better person until Dini even wrote about destructure of how. He did that because he discovered that when he was writing at the university he was writing in high Falutin manner. Yeah the technical term but then when he wrote at home his mindset was towards the general person so he actually shifted and rewrote everything. So I didn't know if you knew that I think you talked about on pre suasion on how he did it with them influence but that's completely fascinating. Yeah it was. It was so I had the privilege of having him on my podcast. Yes I know. And and when when he came on we talked about So many things before after during the show and that's one of the things he mentioned because I told him what I loved about his book was that I can read it and I didn't feel like I needed a college degree to understand it. And he told me that every time he hears that complement is one of the most validating because for him it was it was his goal. It was what he wanted so when I started this process of writing this new book. I said that to my guys. This is what I want. Want people to read it and not go. I need a source to understand this thing or I didn't get the concept because so up here I wanted to be made for people like me. Were very simple. We're not highly educated. I don't have a huge degree. I I am not a scientist. I'm not a researcher of just a guy who loves to hack people and you know just WanNa go out and do it on and help other people do the same thing. So this this is I'm hoping we'll you could tell me in twenty twenty one when it comes out if I accomplish that goal or not your current ones. Good thank you. You mentioned. You didn't want to read the first one. I think that you might have tightened it down just going by the hours. The audiobook. Yeah so the The first one I did a couple of mistakes I made in some some author related mistakes but I also quoted unscientific research and And there and I and I was new to the industry so you can feel that in the book the latest one which is a rewrite of the first one so much more science in it. I backed up. I said with a scientific research I I had people at trust like Joe like Paul like Robin Reid sections where I talked about their work and said can you tell me if I hit it right You know I I I I back everything up with actual real experience and stories from those experiences so I feel like the fourth one. That newest book is is really the like if you're getting into the field you WANNA learn about SC. That's the one to go to because it it's it's got eleven years all packed into those pages. When it definitely helped and the interviews you had helped solidify everything well again. Well now. I'm putting this out there and I put it out to other people love to see if you'd WanNa come back on. I think you saw the Chase Hughes. I did live stream with him and the idea of the livestream is that I put you out and my audience and your audience. Can both you love to do that. Ask questions in the chat and it'd be great. Okay well love to set that up and put a pin in that for the future. Let's set that up yours and we'll get some dates we can make it happen fabulous now for now. Everyone can reach you at Social Dash. Engineer Dash kills me. Did I tell you dot com and Dot Org? You're both deal identity and thank you so much for coming on. You are welcome. Thank you for having me. This was good and thanks for being patient with my technical difficulties. Wasn't Chris Fantastic. He's a true legend in the field and speaking of legends. Be sure to check out the youtube channel again. Find Me Eric. Unle and Chris himself may becoming onto where you can ask questions of him in the livestream and other legends coming up. Include the behavior panel who include four former guests of this show Scott Rouse Chase Hughes Mark Bodin and Greg Hartley. It's an amazing bunch and I think you'll enjoy it very much and before I go. I wanted to shout to get to the show. Chris lockhead Chris. Lockhead is doing a pot storm which is a podcast every day for thirty days so look them. Lockhead on marketing. I think you will really enjoy it now. I WANNA give another shot out to my friend Brett Allen. Who's putting on a conference? It is called Book Your Dream Guest and yours truly is going to be presenting at it this coming weekend. Look up Allen online at all the social. That's Brett B. R. E. T. T. Allen a double A. N.

engineer Chris Lockhead FBI Paul Paul Eric I Joe Navarro Robin United States Paul I Ben Franklin mitnick Rama Drake Blue Team James Fallon Youtube Paul Joan
Jim Casey the Retired SAC and FBI agent with 32 years in law enforcement

Unstructured Interviews

50:00 min | 5 months ago

Jim Casey the Retired SAC and FBI agent with 32 years in law enforcement

"Before we get started I wanted to let you know that today's interview is also a video interview. Liked past few have been go to Youtube. Dot Com slash. Eric Hunley or search for Eric unle on Youtube. Also if you like. Fbi agents like Jim. Casey I have other. Fbi agents on their who. I've done life streams swith upcoming will be Robin Tariq and in the past. I Have Dana Rydin Hauer and Jerry Williams in addition to the FBI. Agents I will also be interviewing or doing a livestream with Thomas. Pechora of the C. I. A. and Jack Barsky who was an undercover KGB ancient now for today. We Have Jim Casey. Jim Acted as a special agent in charge while he was in the FBI for multiple offices. This is a fascinating interview. And I think you'll enjoy it. My name is Eric Harley and this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people today we're joined by another FBI agent. Jim Casey how are you doing today? Jim Craig thank you good to be here. It's good to have you in one thing I love and I was just talking to you. Beforehand and I've spoken to while nine other F. B. I. Agents and what I love about having everybody on is the fact that every one of you somebody different. Now you ended your career. The special agent in charge is it s a C or SAIC. Okay that's a great question to start off with because in the FBI. It's always say. See many of the other. Especially the legacy treasury agencies like secrets removes. Atf are pretty comfortable with SAIC but the bureau has always been pretty adamant that we call ourselves the SEC. And by the way we don't run that acronym together as the sack either that they wanna Quantico you would never refer to the bosses the sack of anything other agencies a little less formal about it. They don't mind doing that. Well there's the connotation you probably don't let your mind run wild. You're really really annoyed with the boss. The sack right now. That's a factor. Save and I'm sure I can't help but think of a J. Edgar Hoover not wanting it to be said that way exactly exactly so. That's something I've kind of learned over. Time is everything does go to hoover. Is that a fair analogy. It's a fair analogy. I mean he died in nineteen seventy two. I came in the bureau. One thousand nine hundred eighty seven. There are a lot of longtime agents said. He didn't really die. Don't let it dawned for you. Well that's you're telling me about your career a little bit very briefly but I mean you just did some amazing thanks. What was your specialization? Because everyone I've spoken to. They've done something different. You know. It's funny because I think you're a recruit you for some specialties. And I remember my my last son when I was the SEC. Jacksonville we go to these conferences. all the SEC's would come together. And BOB. Muller was a director at the time the one thing that we all agreed upon ourselves who would never let Bob Muller now if we had an agent who was a Mandarin Speaker Working Bank robberies in our squad. Because we're driving crazy. He thought that everybody in the agency in the organization was working. That specialty were recruited for. And that just wasn't the case we had accountants Dylan fugitives. We had lawyers working white collar cases. I mean people would kind of gravitated towards what they would with. They were eventually going to work. I was a police officer before I came in the FBI knows a diplomatic security agent for a couple of years before that said a pretty varied background. And I mostly did violent crime and in Detroit in a pretty long term undercover case to not as the undercover as the agent who kinda invented the undercover and then ran it But then I gravitated toward international terrorism in the middle nineties long before it ever kind of really became problem that it is today at least recognized problem that is today and I was for good part of the middle of my career. I was working my way through management. I was involved in national security and counterterrorism counterintelligence toward the end of my career. What happens to a lot more senior managers as you end up? You know really being an executive running operations at a higher level so for example. I was in Jacksonville. I mean I was responsible for all the investigations. Now there's only so many offices in the FBI. Like I'm guessing. There's one at Jacksonville there. Another in Florida. How many actual stations while their field offices instead of fifty six field offices across the country and then there are a number of sub offices we call resident agencies the work for those field offices so in Florida. There's the Miami field office the Tampa field office in the Jacksonville field office. And to further the example we had Seven sub agencies sound Resident Agencies that worked for Jacksonville places like Tallahassee Pensacola Gainesville Fort Walton Beach. Those smaller cities that didn't justify a full field office may be only two eight agents worked in those offices. Okay so you were kind of an umbrella. And the and the sub field offices would they work out of the local police departments or things like that or would they have to drive back and forth Jackson now. They worked out of a smaller. Space traditionally used to be in places like the post office or the federal building in Tallahassee or Gainesville now we migrated more and more especially after Oklahoma City. When the you know the federal building there was bombed the FBI started moving out of federal buildings traditionally in into standalone space. Most of the smaller resident agencies are in commercial space a bank. You know law firm tight building where we rent a couple sweets or something. You mentioned that you worked in terrorism in the nineties coincidentally I had another FBI agent. Who's a Eugene Casey? And he actually interviewed who was probably the most renowned or Well no terrorists in the world. Carlos the Jackson was he kind of intermixed. What you were trying to do you know. I think that was a different a different time. It may have been just prior to an eye as probably started working international tournament terrorism in Nineteen Ninety Five. I can't remember when Jackal the Jackal. Carlos Ramirez Lee Zaslov. Moore's was arrested and he probably fit into a small portfolio of interest to the US. I'm not aware of of Ramirez being involved in any international terrorism that maybe only tangentially affected the United States so he certainly was a very well known at the time. Probably the most well known terrorists absolutely but I think Eugene case was a little bit before my time in that terrorism arena. I think he actually wasn't. It was a weird coincidence because he was what you call me like liaison officer working out a study. Be The legal. Attache is what they call and the League elk and that's how he probably got to do that. Yeah Yeah and they have opportunity to do an interview that was never done so they sent him so he wasn't his beat per se so I guess he was like you were talking about. Everybody does whatever comes up now. Absolutely in those those league -at's legal attaches. They do everything so in a place like Paris. I think when he was there. It's probably bigger now. But when he was there they probably had three. Maybe four agents is probably like a doesn't they're now so those guys catch whatever's coming in. Okay now you sir that somehow you work the Pan Am one. Oh three case. Can you go into what exactly happened in the Timeline Sharon? It's it is sort of an interesting. It's an interesting timeline. Because of where I was and how I contributed the case and in fact I kinda crypt contributed to the case. Eighteen months before the plane ever blew up and saw put the time line sort of in perspective in nineteen eighty six. I mentioned I was a diplomatic security agent and I was I was assigned to a very small counterterrorism component. That had just been stood up inside of Maine State in Washington. Dc there was really only four of us that were working there and we. Kinda just ran interference. We followed intelligence to try and get the latest reporting from the intelligence community out to our Regional security officers in the embassies out across the globe so they kind of knew what was going on and nine hundred eighty six in October. There was a very small uprising. In a very small country of Togo in West Africa the neighbouring Chad had sent guerrilla forces over into Togo for maybe to try to take over the country. Here whip up some fervor or something like that that these dynamic was a toga was a US ally most of the countries surrounding it were all Soviet allies so they were kind of like a diamond in the rough friend of the US and so the President. The country immediately said it was a terrorist incident. He wanted the FBI and the CIA and the State Department. Everybody come over and investigate. This bureau had no interest in it. There was no American victims or hostages or anything like that. It was just a insurrection. A border insurrection. So the State Department sent me over. I went with a two D. agents in an officer from Oji a other government agency they had to explosives experts that we're GONNA look at some explosives in armaments in the totally government had saved a whole bunch of evidence of this terrorist uprising. Really was an insurrection. They were calling it a terrorist uprise and so the FBI wasn't interested in sending any explosive experts. So we said to the and they were so the four of US deployed over to Togo in October nineteen eighty-six and we we went to where the Togolese government had saved all the dead bodies for us. That was really awful. We didn't need to see that but they also had spread out a whole bunch of AK forty sevens browning. Hi Power pistol a bunch of simplistic plastic explosives Step was very old kind of crystallized. Everything was Kinda old absolving. Rusted you know Steph was probably twenty years old then from Vietnam War era and the only thing that wasn't old or kind of rusted out where to maybe the size of a cell phone today pretty sophisticated timers at had digital readouts on them and they they really were kind of unusual compared to everything else and so we asked the Togalese government if we could take one match. Smu take both of them. They let us take one of those timers so I carried that back to the to the US in a diplomatic patch and came back to the main state and wrote a big report about what we found. And in fact we did find some Libyan backing some of those arms. They came back to the government of Libya that had been sold. Those weapons and the timer was Kinda shopped around the FBI and the CIA and eventually made his way to like the miscellaneous timers. Shaw at the CIA. Nobody thought anything about it was nineteen eighty six October flash forward to December nineteen eighty eight year and a half later almost two years later. Pan Am one three blew up by now an FBI denied Kinda gone to be FBI from the Diplomatic Security Service. And I would say another year and a half after that probably nineteen ninety ish. I get a phone call from somebody who went on to become a good friend of mine in the Washington field office and he said. Are you the same Jim Casey? That went to Togo with diplomatic security in nineteen eighty six and I said yeah. That's me. He says listen. We need to send you a bunch of reports that you wrote back then. You need to rewrite unlike you're an FBI agent because we think that timer was very important to solving the mystery of Pan. Am One three. They were only twenty six of those timers ever created. They were all created by Swiss company FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF LIBYA. And we think if we can prove forensically at that time of year. Recovered is the same as the other twenty five that wherever made and we've accounted for about twenty of them. It's pretty critical evidence so I did kind of. We wrote my diplomatic security reports. Put Him in the Fort in the FASCIN- FBI. Report will look like that. Got included into the evidence and in two thousand one went over to to The Hague in the Netherlands to testify in the trial against the two terrorists who were being tried in. Scottish court held in the Netherlands To be responsible for Panama. Three in You may remember. One of them was convicted in one of them was found not proven not guilty. Not Proven so yeah I like that. I mean it sounds crazy. I liked that as a bird in some ways because it's not admitting saying that they're not guilty of Saint Okay we can't get you right now. We know you did it. But we can't prove it. That is somehow more accurate. It was a thirty six week. Trial very long drawn out trial. Obviously it took years to put the case together actually travel over Scotland the meeting with my counterpart from the Scottish National Police. Coordinate where my testimony would fall in relooked as evidence again and say. Hey remember this. These Germanischer Scratched on the back of this timer. And and so yeah when he was a very Uk style trial took place. We almost felt afterwards. The three judge panel. It wasn't a jury or three judges that heard the case we felt like they're kinda splitting the baby by letting one of them off and only convicting the other one now from there. Did you go straight to working on Timothy McVeigh or did that? Come about what would be the time line story so the interesting thing about the McVeigh case was the FBI with a major case like that Oklahoma City Oba. We called it when that happened in nineteen ninety six obliterate visit. April of Nineteen ninety-six authority erupted. Can you go into that too because I read that? There are only so many quote major cases in the FBI. And the unabomber was called a major case. I believe Timothy McVeigh was a major case. from what you're saying there was only like two hundred of them or something to that point but can you clarify little bit. Because I think that's a very interesting topic. Yeah so it's probably a little more than two hundred especially by now but yeah. These major cases would have the designator like in a major case. One one seven one seventy two. I can't remember what you know. Obama was and oftentimes for example twin L. bombs a good example Oklahoma City when a when a major case that is designated. They'll put an inspector in charge. You know to kind of run the investigation. Because there's so much to do especially in a place like Oklahoma City. Ok the sac very capable of running that investigation but it's bigger than even sac. So then spent a Senate inspector into kind of direct traffic in get resources in sort of the overall point person on that major investigation. The Olympic Park bombing was another one. That happened at the Olympics. So what is it? That's different is? It is a major case. Almost like its own department so to speak like its own budget. Its own hierarchy. How does that break down? I mean how's it different than any other case? I think it you know a good part of the discussion especially really before. We had major telecommunications like this the ability to you know have videoconferences securely and things like that you know. Part of it was just a way to have a lot of resources in one place and yet they would be budgeted separately. You'd have separate line item in the SEC. Seen Oklahoma City when worry about his gas budget if he was a major case designating wouldn't worry about personnel. Wouldn't worry about any of those things and it was. It was also waited captured from a file standpoint that everything was going into one file as opposed to any investigation that took place in Detroit. That related to you know. Be Obama investigation you know. For example the Nichols brothers. Right and one of them lived up in Michigan. So all of that stuff would get designated into the major case. Okay so sorry to interrupt it. Yeah if he can go back to the story I just I like to learn about you. Know how things work a little ben absolutely so we were talking about Oklahoma City. That was a major case. I was at FBI headquarters at the time. And so in the in the counterterrorism section it was actually a fairly small section we had twenty six supervisory special agents that were in the counterterrorism section. We probably had like number of analysts. So maybe a fifty or sixty of us. They're responsible for coordinating managing all counter-terrorism investigations across the bureau just by way of contrast today that division section's division probably has close to five hundred personnel in it and that's all it's result in the complex problem. Terrorism has become a bit at the time the smaller division so all of us went down to the operations center and for probably a month and a half or two months. You know we helped crisis manage the the investigation from you. Know from headquarters component sort of like the Pentagon would do for a major military operation. That's what my role was for a month and a half or two months when when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma City has our federal building. The MORROW FEDERAL BUILDING SUDAN FLASH FORWARD TO TWO THOUSAND ONE and now spot supervisor in Indianapolis which was basically all of Indiana so Indianapolis Division. There were resident. There's little residencies talked about. They were in South Bend and Fort Wayne and there was one in terror hope which is where the federal prison so Timothy McVeigh had been moved to the federal prison in Terre Haute. He was scheduled to be executed initially somewhere. In the early spring of two thousand and one you may remember there was a big Snafu that occurred about a month and a half before his execution date where there were at least a couple. Fbi Three O. Two's which we call the report of interview every investigative activities documented. Nfc Three two. There was some of those that were found behind an old file cabinet or something and it became an issue as to whether or not the defense ever had access to these F. D. three They were tens of thousands of FD. Three O two's very small minority of relevant. I mean knocking on a door in Kansas City. Because somebody said they saw McVeigh at seven eleven. Four years later we've been documented on a three a tick. Would it be relevant? Probably not so. Even though these documents they were found were determined not to have been turned over to his defense it. It became sort of A. Hey we're getting ready to execute a guy we gotta make sure. Every every you know is dotted. Every t is crossed and so it was a big deal that these documents exist. It became a bigger deal. When other offices were saying well we have a bootleg copies of three. Oh twos and we have other documents at all say Obama on him you know does the do we need to turn those in the does the Department of Justice in McVeigh's attorneys have those documents and It turned into a little bit of of inside a DC inside DJ inside the FBI real Snafu to determine whether or not the F. B. I. had documents laying around relative to Timothy McVeigh. That is defense. Attorney never had access to mine approved. He was innocent and I mean it really was a fire drill. I was sitting in a-. In a conference call with all of the SAC's across the country in the acting director at the time. Got Into Tom Car is really good. Guy was basically given these. Sac's religion on. They had a forty eight hours to go through to go every desk drawer. Fbi trump in the car. Anything they were. They thought that they were documents. That can relate to Timothy McVeigh and make sure those documents were delivered Oklahoma City and it actually got out of hand. I was designated in Indianapolis to make sure that we had all those documents. I literally had to xerox boxes full of they were xeroxed copies. They weren't original documents. Was nothing related? Tim McVeigh that. His defense attorneys didn't have access to that was relevant to his guilt. actually had baseball hats that said. Oak Bomb Task Force on them agents. Threw him into the box he said. I don't want that if that this has to do with Oklahoma City bombing. I don't want it so I I got on the Indianapolis. The Indiana State police airplane on a Wednesday morning flew out to Oklahoma City. Took a taxi cab from the airport to a command post. They had set up in a garage. The OKLAHO- Oklahoma City field office in delivered two boxes of documents. None of Germain in many you know like I said. Hat's plaxton commended them for work on the Oklahoma City bombing case so then a flash a couple months. This was resolved quickly that none of these documents had anything to do with Tim. Mcveigh's innocence because he wasn't an innocent and it was time for the execution while we spent up kind of a task force to monitor any threats that come to that to execution and there were quite a few. There were were readings male. Well his his actual act was kind of a revenge for previous encounters with Ruby Ridge and Waco right so it's a very real threat I would think and there were. He had sympathetic people out there. I mean there were small fringe you kinda quasi militia groups or people that were with him that WanNa death you know. They're people said that they were going to break them out or they're going to disrupt the execution and so when we were following those threads there were several of them and it was an Inter Agency Task Force we had all the federal agencies the state police we had people from the you know the Prison Service. Everybody was kind of doing the right thing to make sure all the information on any potential threat was Was known and the day before the execution. He was executed on Monday morning. We all kind of went out there about six o'clock at night and it was in the summertime of June and so it was still light when we got there but it was a surreal atmosphere. They were you know stanchions with CNN NBC ABC. They all had like boots. All set up where their personalities in there with lights showing down onto the quad based trucks that would show up at a carnival to sell cotton candy and t shirts were there. I mean it was really just a surreal atmosphere. That lasted all night with people. Just waiting for this execution we even had. I got a call from the Indiana state police. Maybe two o'clock in the morning they had stopped a a woman. I sixty nine outside of Fort Wayne. She was going like eighty miles an hour and a convertible with a wedding dress on with the whole train and everything in the back and she had a cake and she was going to marry. Tim McVeigh and so they called. Said you know. What do we do with this lady? And she breaking off tired. Come on and sure enough. She showed up like two hours before the execution hybris she can't she came running up and the cameras all had a big time. Whether 'cause I mean nobody the TV cameras couldn't get within. You know maybe a quarter of a mile from where the you know. The Death Chamber was set up inside the prison cell. It was a very surreal atmosphere. I mean it's like nothing else I kind of experienced. Did you ever meet with him or encounter him anyway? I do not know okay. I didn't one thing that I find interesting about. Mcveigh and I believe John. Muhammad is a fence. Don't fool around. I mean they're not a death row for twenty years. He was on death row for five six years. Something like that well. He was the first federal execution since nineteen sixty. Three though. If my memory's correct there's only one more shortly after him also interior hood who was a pretty well known drug dealer. I can't remember his name. Now big big time drug dealer. That was responsible for a lot of debts. And then I don't think there's been once there was a Pakistani who shot up and killed the people out of Quantico that was at the CIA or say. I'm sorry Langley. I forgot his name but he wasn't he in that timeframe too. You know that's a really good question on as soon as we're done here. I'M GONNA go research worse because when that first happened that's interesting. That was never really worked. As a counter. Terrorism case worked is just kind of an assault against federal officers the CIA officers outside the gate on one. Twenty-three headquarters. Yeah you're right. I had a Tom Pa- Koran who is Cia Security and he was his first assignment and that happened like almost right after he got there. Yeah say it was like nine hundred ninety five. That was actually right before I got to believe it rape before I got to the Counter Terrorism section and it was sort of A. Hey is this terrorism. I mean nobody really knew I think. In retrospect people think it really was. The Guy was ideological but you know at the time it was just considered you know an assault on on federal officers penalties. The same but that's the way the kind of worked well is fair to say to that. We didn't exactly want to elevate things into terrorism. Like if there was any question calling terrorism could have a even more negative effect of getting people a little worried. Hey these are terrorists. I actually think at the time that we just weren't as a tuned to the problem and especially here in the United States because it wasn't like we're having terrorists come here to commit an act. If they did they told us they would. You know I don't think especially early on there was any it was a known nexus between him. And you know a terrorist group per se. Okay now after. Mcveigh that kind of I WANNA see? Wasn't that sort of in point of the really. You know obviously awful domestic terrorism and we start to slide over to. I guess modern terrorism. You know it's funny. Because I did have a squad in Indianapolis Indiana rural area. We had people that consider themselves. You know militia types. They would meet for firearms training on in once a month on Saturday and many over very strict constitutionalists. I don't think they consider themselves terrorists. They might have been you know anti federal government but I think there was a dramatic in and that sort of mindset after Oklahoma City. I think a lot of people say you know what I'm not in it. Does this whole killing babies thing that that's not you know. I'll show up for the beer on Saturday morning but I'm not down with that part of it and I think it did a lot did drop off. It still exists today. I mean I think we call him. You know these Neo Nazi groups some of these white hate groups. We're not calling militias as much. I don't think but I think there's some of that element but they're pretty light on the ground. I mean I'm not going to downplay say that Charlottesville didn't happen and then the guy wasn't Obviously a hate crime person but that's more unusual. Isn't it I think I think that there are pockets of these guys that have to be really need attention? They need to be watched. They need to there. Needs TO BE. Fbi investigations on some of them but not earlier point. I do think that there was a certain decompression of that after Oklahoma City. Some of the people that thought they were more serious about this found that they really weren't okay so now after Timothy McVeigh obvious terrorism. And we're you still working counterterrorism or were you getting more into leadership roles. There's a little bit of a squad in Indiana and so that entire squad did all international terrorism domestic terrorism and we also do counterintelligence so it was. We had a lot of roles that we that we played and being kind of a smaller division. What happens? Fbi smaller businesses. Everybody Kinda does everything so if you do have a big bank robbery case a hostage case or kidnapping everybody. Kind of goes and helps participate in and work on those cases. So's doing a little bit everything. Okay now one thing I've heard and you can confirm more later Is that in general with the FBI? A case officer works a case and an SAC does not show up to a case they if it s a c shows up to a case something went very very wrong. Is that a true statement. Not a hundred percent. I think every. Sec has her style. I tended to be more of an on the ground. You know. I didn't view myself is just a paperwork pusher. Don't tell them you know I don't WanNa know what's going on. I mean I I was Kinda more hands on and you know like to walk around the office every day and see what the guys and Gals were working on. You know. I think I was pretty in a down in the weeds. Try and micromanage work but just wanted to know what was going on Sunday night tended to go out on things you know if there was a bigger asked or you know a big search warrant. That was going down. I'd go I didn't try and I didn't try and run it. That's what I had squad see providers as Saxon Swat commanders for. Stay in the background where. I don't caused anybody any problems okay. Well I'm curious I would love to hear. What is the path on the way up to becoming? Sac joke around a lot about it. We did anyway when I was there yet. A lot of it's hand in the air. I mean you really have to decide that you're gonNA make that sacrifice in your family is going to go along with it because it's alive. Move Seven Times. My four kids went to four different high schools. And that's not for everybody. I'm not sure it was from a but you know what you gotTa have to do. My First Office was Detroit. And it's a big office so you know generally when you're in a big office you don't have to leave so I I literally could've stayed in Detroit. For Twenty five years and worked cases. And you know you couldn't matriculate up to the squad supervisor level in management but you couldn't go any higher generally without getting transferred at least once or twice to Washington DC. So yeah. It's very much like the military in terms of getting promoted except for we didn't have all the Bob Muller tried to institute sort of an upper out when after nine eleven when he really felt like he needed to move people around quickly and appoint leaders and get him from New York to L. A. or from San Francisco to Boise. He wanted that ability and it was tough. It was a tough battle for him. Because you just didn't a lot of ages didn't want to do that. This is you know people wanted to be kind of More stationary okay. You mentioned military and that actually popped in my head because I was in the army one time and typically getting promoted people will be moved to another unit sort of deliberately because it doesn't always work out or go over really well when somebody. Who's your pure buddy yesterday? Is Your boss tomorrow. So it sometimes seems to be more effective to move on from one company to another company so everybody in the company only knows them at that newer rank is that a similar scenario. It kind of is I know when I first went in the bureau and for many years after that you know they would tell you you realize you're not going home In fact I have really funny. But it's IT'S A. It's a story that really drives that point home. They're fifty of us the first morning. June the second nineteen eighty seven in Quantico or sitting in the tiered. You know risers of the classroom. There was a guy in the back row because his last name again with W I remember his name is David. I WON'T SAY IT. And so the instructor got up and said does everybody now that in sixteen weeks time. You're not going home. The only thing you're going home for is to put all the kids and the German shepherd with the tail wagging in the back of the station wagon. You're going somewhere else. But the young man in the back of the room one of the old style guy briefcases at the time with two latches on at any opened it up. Put his things in the briefcase in walked down to the front of the Rim and we never solving any went back to a corrugated. Cardboard box companies family ran very successfully in that just was not for him so back in the day everybody got transferred right from their very first assignment and usually it was. You went to a small to medium office like Jacksonville and then you went to big office like Detroit and you could kinda either stay. There could put in for us to have and I think they probably have something like it now. A once in a lifetime call it office a preference but they changed the name of it kind of a once in a lifetime transferred to wherever you wanted to go. Most agents said they wanted to go but then eventually never took advantage of it. Okay we'll see you were in Detroit. Which is larger office and you ultimately retired from Jacksonville. Why did you want a smaller office to kind of chill out at the end? What what was the motivation? Well at the time I was I was a section chief at FBI headquarters. And I got a call from the deputy director. I had not put in for Jackson. We had this very you know formal system on something opens up you kind of put in for you. Put your resume in. They have a career board and at the SEC level. You know the Career Board may make a recommendation but the director of the Deputy Director. Pick whoever they want anyway. And so I got a call from the from the deputy director and said No. You didn't put in for Jacksonville. And he said kind of trying to stay in DC area. I think I've moved enough. Slide over Washington field office in the SEC. There that'd be that'd be just fine with me and he said I'm going to send you to Jackson though and I'm say no so in other words he's a go and put in for Jackson. I never put in you. Just they just got orders. I got it. The director called me like three weeks later and said congratulations. She goes to Jacksonville. I didn't tell him I didn't put him but okay. Now what was that like what you know? What was exciting new? That happened in Jacksonville during your tenure so I mean we had a lot of good cases when I was here. I was here for four years before I decided it was kind of time to punch out and do something different. You know again. Smaller office work. A lot of things happened White Collar Crime Cases Bank robbery cases We had somebody throw a bomb up against the biggest mosque in town while I would see her and then Eventually there was a period rapid. That happened Kinda went dark as to. Who did the investigation went cold? And then what happens you know like having a lot of investigations is a really quick? Lightning lead came up and within two days. We had the guy pinpointed anyways in. He was in a state park out in in Kansas City and Kansas City Missouri area. And you know the FBI team went out. There found him kind of camping out in a pickup truck and he tried to shoot him and they ended up shooting and killing him So yeah there are a lot of things that happened while I was here united as well as drug issues there or is that more Miami and drug issues in every every town here at tends to be very localized smaller gangs. I think probably between the DA in and the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office. Which is our local police department. Here they're pretty good visibility in a handle. I mean it's still a problem. Still results in probably out seventy percent or more of the homicides happen in Jacksonville or drug related but in terms of moving massive amount of drugs or drug enterprises like we had make bigger field offices. Now Okay now you retired from the FBI in Jacksonville staring. I did I mean I think after seven moves my wife and I are both from the Washington. Dc Area liked the Washington DC area but like living in Florida too so we just kinda decided nicer places anywhere to live. So we're North Florida and I really enjoy living here okay. Now you've moved on and you were telling me a little bit about the new company which was was F. FCC security but you've kind of spun off. Do you WanNa talk about love to so I've been working for several years for. Interestingly a man who was one of the first people I met when it came to Jacksonville former NCIS agent and Turkey and I literally grew up three miles from each other Vienna. Virginia who would've guessed seven. What's his name? His name is Bland Cologne Eib Land Cologne principle which is a weirdest actually. Sounds like it belongs in a romance novel or as he likes to say is one of a kind. You never have to worry about anybody. Confusing his name than anybody else. But he's a fascinating guy. He was a former falls. Church policeman became a NCIS AGENT. Moved down here to Jackson a couple times. He married a lady from Florida and I think after his third carrier deployment because those guys go live on a carrier for like six months. I think his wife said something. Like you know the boat or me an. He chose her so he left. Cis after you know thirteen fourteen years shorter retirement in started. The very small security company called I co- security He got a couple of local contracts and that was twenty years ago the year. Two thousand in here. We are twenty years later and he's got twenty five hundred employees contracts in twelve different states. Some pretty good sized federal work in the Washington DC area. But it's mostly a man guarding operation. I'd say ninety eight percent of what they're doing this in a guarding facilities electric companies data centers things like that but for a period of time right after retired. I did have a small business where I I was. A private investigator in Florida had an agency license which is required to run that sort of operation I had a Pi License in did some interesting cases. We'd always talked about maybe spinning off in going back into that work and so we decided a couple months ago The owner myself. Let's let's give this a try. Let's spin off a completely different company will call it. Fcs Global Advisors. And you know we'll get involved in the you know the higher end private investigations background investigations for executives crisis management cybersecurity those sorts of things and we draw a lot of of the consultants and experts. You know there's there's a group about eight hundred fifty former. Fbi agents doing stuff like this and we all know each other and that's a great to kind of work this sort of thing. I mean if I have a case that has tentacles in Los Angeles and in Phoenix and New Jersey this role index of guys that I can go to. I know they're gonNA look like they know they're going to get paid. It's you know it's just a dynamic group of people to kind of work collectively in almost like I on the FBI. Do you do any like training for schools and things like that for active shooter situations and were places that something that you guys get? We did some of that as as the man guarding concern because people were calling and asking about that and so I was going to do in a lot of that I had. I put together some training materials in between retiring from the FBI. And come to work for I ca- security. I was vice president of asset protection. It's Stein Mart national retailer and so I put together a lot of things like that about how to handle active shooter situations what they should do in the store. You know. Crisis Management plans continuity of operations types things and and. This is the sort of thing that I think that bland and I had the idea what people are calling for stuff like this and I'm stopping do what. I'm doing helping. Run the man security company to do these things when we spin off the separate company things like that. Okay now. Let's talk about the current situation and I'm just curious your thoughts about the quarantine or stay at home or I guess it depends on where you are. How what are your thoughts on him? I? It's it's so big I don't even know how to ask it but I'm curious you know from a controlling perspective trying to keep people saying yeah. It's great question. Everybody has an idea on it. I guess some of them more informed than others and I don't pretend to be in those informed consent My space right but I mean I'll tell you is the data to nurses that I think the early efforts to try and You know social distance might my perception of what? We're trying to do what I hope we have done or still doing. Is You know they keep talking about flattening? The curve has been a buzzword. Is You WANNA have fewer people get sick and fewer people die? Obviously but we're could've really been a nightmare for the country was if everybody got sick all at once. So if there's X. number of people get sick and x number of people that are going to die. Unfortunately this can't have that happen on the same space because then you know there's not gonna be any more beds in the emergency rooms for people that car accidents heart attacks drug overdose. All this happened anyway. Healthcare this it's not set up like an interstate highway. It only has enough for rush hour traffic and no more and so I think that as we look at what's going on now. Maybe we beat some of that back but you did hit on a thing about localization. I mean it's in the United States country or were you know it's almost like we're fifty different countries and we have fifty different issues here. That works everyone response. Does it need to look the same. North Dakota as a dozen New York. City should notre North Dakota be shut down when they had to debts. I duNNo. It's kind of rhetorical question. Well this spends out of it and with your rather unique background I just wanted to run it by you and this is not only including FBI time but obviously working private security private investigations. You know about giving information did you happen to see the charts where they were showing the tracking from the Spring breakers on one beach in Florida. And how they tracked him everywhere in the country and I'm just curious because everybody obviously is so fascinated by the spread of the virus and that's a huge concern but I have the other concern of look at this data look at tracking. Is it too late to Oregon? Is Privacy dead so I? I hear what you're saying and I'm a huge privacy advocate. Don't get me wrong just because I was in government where we invaded. People's privacy with warrants. I'm a big proponent. That those need to be you know very well scripted and authorized and everything else huge privacy guy but that data you're looking at is totally anonymous because but it's not because technically. I could take any one of those dots and say oh. I don't know who it is only follow it for a while. Wow It hits that address every day I narrowed down to a couple of people. You know the former former CIA director Gates Robert Gates at famously said I'll paraphrase The exact quote but it was something to the effect that Google and Amazon a lot. More about you than the FBI the CIA because they care a lot more you and that's sort of true. I mean what you said is true. Who's going to do it? I mean somebody work at. At and T. GONNA dig into the files to see that phone number. They went from Panama City. Beach to In Joliet Illinois make their interest in doing it. They gotta have a reason to do it. And then they have to pick which one they're gonNA to do out of those tens of thousands of phones and by the way most of the steps all run by anyway. There's no person behind it made. Theoretically to your point there could be something could go look at it but European. I'm sorry European Point Right. You'd go pay for the information actually and you're looking for the wrong one because I'm pretty I. There are some things that do and there are some things that they that I won't do. I mean I I would have that would be the law but I think it would be hard. Okay let's let's put on my my black hat. Say Well maybe okay. Yeah need to find out that phone. Who Do I go? I don't even I couldn't even tell you I went to. At and T. To get that phone and track it and all of that. I mean there's not a department of tracking for deeper even well there. There is the Department of tracking for target. There's a tornado tracking for people who want to sell ads to people because that is what seems to be coming out. The government could go higher facebook and say track. Oh Yeah but where did? Where did facebook give the information? You gave it to him only after a fashion. Yes that's where all that information comes from. We give an we give it to all those companies willingly so then. I guess you'd agree. It's probably too late out there. Yeah I fall into the category for for the most part who cares. I mean you know I don't care I'll have facebook but I have all the decision media accounts but yeah I mean if somebody back there really cared that much I mean I have a good friend Jason to Filipo of Grumpy Geeks. Yes and I had to fall out laughing because he said it actually is a relief. You said it's too late. It just doesn't matter. I don't have to worry about anyone. Facebook right. Look that's an age old adage don't put anything in an email you don't WanNa see in the front page of New York Times. People how many careers have been ruined over? Twitter really still are fantastic and I appreciate you going with the segue. Absolutely now. People can find out more about you at FCS. Security DOT website okay. We'll have a new one soon. But you'll always be able to reach. Fcs global advisors by that website. Right there that you just added and I'm also on twitter at Jim Underscore Casey underscore okay. I was wondering about the second underscore. If there was a second underscores Casey too many well. Hey Man thank you so much for coming in great. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate. It wasn't Jim Amazing. I'm glad you liked it. I thrill to have such opportunity to speak to these legendary agents in the FBI and the DA and wall. We're talking about legendary. You might WANNA check out a friend of mine. Christopher lockhead in his shows follow your different or Lockhead Marketing. He is a true legend in the podcast in arena and the marketing arena and also be sure to check out my friends. Jason to Filipo and Brian Shaw. Meister and their fabulous show grumpy old geeks. You'll have a fun time. Thanks so much for listening and until next time be safe.

FBI Timothy McVeigh Oklahoma City Jacksonville United States Detroit CIA Jim Underscore Casey Washington officer SEC GOVERNMENT Indianapolis Indiana Florida Quantico SAC director Togo Obama
Undercover FBI agent Bob Hamer

Unstructured Interviews

49:01 min | 7 months ago

Undercover FBI agent Bob Hamer

"Hey there before it gets started it. You know I've started a youtube channel. It's right have life streams that have taken place in some that are coming up in these are with unstructured unstructured guests in our flat out. Amazing I started with Chase Hughes. He's the behavioral engineer wrote the book. Ellipse behavior that book covers everything in from hypnosis to negotiation all the way up to well cratia Manchurian candidate followed up with Viva Privacy Youtube lawyer. The huge is channel and a giant following. Really Fun guy next up. I'm CAV Christina. Linen Net Christina is noted did as the world's best hypnotised by CBS. And she's famous for hypnotizing. Someone cowl with her dog after Christina of Mandy. O'Brien Dan who runs bombards body language. Very famous youtuber. Who Different Videos and reacts to them next? Jason de Philipos. Coming up Jason to Philip Bowes answered more questions with Jordan Harbinger than I can even imagine and after that I will have Scott rouse another other great body language experts now. What is special about this livestream? Is You get to ask the questions. Every one of these folks has been a guest on unstructured so you can listen to the episode. And maybe I didn't ask a question you want to hear or you come up with something that you want to know. This is a wonderful opportunity for you to join in. Asked the questions so please look for me on Youtube Eric. Hanley very easy to find. And while you're looking for me I'm Eric on the on all the socials I hope to hear from you and I hope you enjoy the show. My name name is Erica. And this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today we are joined by Bob. Hamer Bob Hamer is a retired. FBI agent who worked in undercover. He wrote about his career in the book. The last undercover cover. How're you doing today? Bob Hey thanks Jerry. I'm doing well. I'm really excited to have you on. I mentioned to you earlier but you will be my eighth. FBI agent. And I find it really fascinating that I can get all these different agents in everybody's doing a different job. Well I think that was one thing that always interested me with the FBI that we weren't really limited to just one particular violation and you could work a violation for four or five years. And if you put your time in you put in some paperwork and you could probably get transferred to a different squad that would work a completely different violations so I always found that a great part of the FBI. Be I it it kept things new and interesting and you just kind of get burned out with investigating the same type of cases. Che's yeah that's going to be out from what I understand it. I probably the numbers could have changed or I might have got a messed up but I understand there's around ten thousand FBI agents. It's and from what I've heard from you. You know in doing research out of that many agents. There's only maybe one hundred to one hundred fifty who actually AH undercover. Yeah you know I never knew the real numbers but the way the undercover program works in the FBI. It's not like television where the supervisor adviser walks out in the squad bay says. Hey we need a contract killer today to somebody WanNa play that role and you raise your hand. The FBI has a selection in process. You have to apply you have to be approved by several different levels of administration once you're proved at the local level then it goes back to headquarters and then they have a two week in service which is kind of a selection process. They want you to I think it's like Marine Corps officer candidate school or or buds training for the seals. It's not it's not that hard lie. There still. Is that selection election process so some guys not everybody wants to work undercover. That's one thing I want to make clear it's not the most sought after position in the FBI but some of those. That apply aren't approved by the different levels of administration. They maybe don't pass a psychological background in terms of being the loner the self starter that type of individual and then some people can't get through the two weekend service because they they can't take the stress of that two weeks and then a Lotta guys once they are proved and they work one or two undercover assignments. They just decided. This isn't for me that the hours are are to their to unpredictable. The cases are too dangerous. And I really don't WanNa do this anymore. So it turned out that maybe at any one time there might only be one hundred or one hundred and fifty people with in the FBI that are certified to work undercover and even amongst those there were probably just a handful of us that it spent much of our career in various undercover assignment. So there were a few. I'm not quite sure. Who are? You've interviewed but guys like Jack. ARSIA myself I mean. We spent most of our career working various undercover assignments. So it was just we gravitated catered toward that. And that's what we like to do. You've also kind of mentioned these seemed to be sort of an independent spirit. I think you wrote like an apology in your forward that that was the one time you actually follow the rules to the letter. Yeah when I I wrote the book the last undercover which here's my first book I've actually authored Co authored nine books but the first book you when you're an FBI agent and you write about the FBI you have to submit it for approval approval from headquarters and the only the only push back. I got from the bureau was that I couldn't name the names of the agent so where I put their names in the original manuscript. I had to replace those with my case agent or the surveillance agent or something like that so that that was that was one rule that I followed is that because they were still active Yes okay so if everybody was retired then you could name names. Yes I guess I think so. I haven't written a book like that. And maybe they would allow that to go through okay. I know there's interesting rules from what I understand. Dan and I've also had secret service on and CIA so that was interesting. Like I understand that you can't profit while you're in the FBI. I I by writing a book on the side you need to be retired. Is that incorrect. I think so. There have been a couple agents that have written books but they've been almost educational. Books are technical books so it hasn't been. This is my life as an F. B. I. Agent as an undercover agent. Or this this is about the case that I work. It hasn't been those type. It's been more of I think cybersecurity type books that have been approved but for the most part art. Yeah you have to be you have to be retired to write it and the FBI does not allow outside income so oh we can't have second jobs and I'm sure the bureau would view a book that was written for profit to be outside income. See I find that interesting because I know one act of CIA agent. who did write a book in? I interviewed him about it. So obviously the different services have different standards words. That actually surprises me but well it was funny because I didn't realize but he got really quiet when I asked a couple questions and I am not familiar with that I was like. Oh you're not oh okay and I cut it interview neither confirm nor deny that it was worth it just to get that reaction now now back to undercover cover career for money or send you did apply to be on the CIA at one point. Yeah I spent four years on active duty Marine Corps and as I was was getting out I was really seeking something interesting exciting and had applied to the CIA and literally scored a zero on personality analogy tests that they gave so they. They weren't too interested. They had the test they gave. They scored you from zero to ten. Zero could essentially live on a deserted island for the rest of his life and be content and a ten had to be constantly surrounded by people and I admit that I somewhat skewed my answers. I assume that they were looking for people that they parachuted behind enemy lines and he stayed there for the three months and then he whacked the Third World dictator and they extricated him by helicopter or something. Yes they're thinking recon down right. But that's not what I did a lawyer for Rigel. Yeah I don't like to talk about that. Yeah I don't. I don't Brag about being a judge advocate Marine Corps. I I'll brag about being a marine. I try to avoid telling everybody what my mos was but Yeah yeah so I thought that's what the CIA was kind of looking for and the psychologist. When he came back with the results he looked at me and shook his head and he said I've I've never seen zero personality personality and kind of laugh at my wife? We've she and I have been married for forty six years and she still occasionally reminds me that I'm the only I declared by the federal government to be zero personality. But when you when you understand for the most part the CIA as role are working at foreign embassies and getting close to foreign government officials and all right Brian to recruit them to provide US intelligence. So I mean it makes sense that they were looking for somebody that had a little more personality but I think that the actual test and the results a little different. I guess you could say I don't need people it's not that I don't WanNa be around people it's like I really don't need people in relationships and therefore that probably skewed a lot of my answers. I'll definitely want to go into that. A little a bit more later going into being undercover though. What did you think it would be like ahead of time before you went into it when I was going through the academy? We had a couple of people that were counselors that had done some of undercover work. And I just thought that that sounded exciting. I probably probably watch a little too much. TV thinking that. Wow this would be really exciting. I'm SORTA Vet Ephram Zimbalist. The FBI generation were guys were wearing suits and would fleiss their badge and credentials and say FBI and that didn't quite interest me as much as being that guy that nobody knew who he was. That was playing a role. Kinda I was more of the James Rockford type of Guy Way away and so that just interested me so I tried to gravitate toward those type of assignments. I mean once I once yes I got Outta the academy I guess my goal was to eventually work undercover and seek out those opportunities and and it was everything I expected it to be and actually more. Let's cool it's nice when Something fulfils the expectations. Now I ascoli now because I did not realize that you as undercover agent and I don't know how the other services work or local police but you would work multiple cases at the same time that surprised me you could. That didn't always happen to me. But but toward the end of my career. I always kinda laugh that I was one of the few certified undercover agents on the West Coast. So if they we're looking for I get the I O U cases so if they were looking for somebody that was impotent old and ugly they would contact me so I'd toward the end. I was working three undercover cases at the same time. And that was. That was a little too much. I mean it was pretty stressful. Quite frankly quickly it was stressful from the FBI administrative standpoint. Not from the bad guys standpoint. I could have. I think I could've easily worked even more undercover cases if I didn't have to fight a lot of the bureaucracy that comes with any the undercover assignment. When I'm curious how do you maintain an identity on multiple cases or do you just have one identity and you can be both both appear and a thief at the same time right? Yeah the the three cases I worked one was a major case called Operation Smoking Dragon. And and it was a cig- retargeting and Asian criminal syndicate that that lasted three years so I was undercover for three years on that Particular Investigation Association. At the same time I had infiltrated a group called NAMBLA. The North American man Boy Love Association which was a group of pedophile. Dell's men that were sexually attracted to boys and then I was actually working a Vietnamese gang case. So I- maintained the same backstory for all three of those that I was an older man. I mean I had the same name. I had the same undercover credit cards and undercover identification. Identification okay. I was an older man. I was handicapped. I had some real estate and I had some financial investments and accounts. I had clients that I worked for so it was. It was the same with all three of those so it wasn't like Oh my gosh today. My name is Eric and and and I'm in a weapons case and the phone rings and wait a minute when this number dials in Charles and I'm a pedophile. You know so it wasn't it wasn't anything like that. Okay well I just. I had to clarify that in my head to get around that and I guess that makes sense because you can be a pedophile. Who runs a warehoused oust that is allowing cigarettes to go through for a living? Yeah and I'm guessing that maybe I'm wrong but maybe the more more more of a criminal you are the more variety you have the better each cover reinforces themselves to a certain extent. Yeah I mean when we worked The Vietnamese gang case I I was someone that was dealing with counterfeit cigarettes so I talked about that and can talk about got it openly and even at one point provided them with some counterfeit cigarettes so it added to my credibility when I was dealing with the gang members also no I wanted to also check with you on. I guess you'd call it a very different kind of undercover guest. Jack Doc Barsky and he ultimately had a run in with the F. B. I. himself but he was a KGB agent. Oh Wow and he lived here in the United States for ten years as a fake citizen he was born in east. Germany smug came in and establish an identity entity and ultimately quit and he's the citizen now of the US great guy but one of the things we discussed was. He's suffering to this day as he put it with a near personality split because of having to maintain I mean he literally had a family only here in a family in Germany. Oh Wow okay and children both now. I'M NOT GONNA say yours is extreme. But I'm I'm wondering do you. You have any kind of effects of having to maintain two very distinct identities. No I maybe my wife if you interviewed her she'd tell you issues but no that that wasn't a problem for me. I I honestly believe that. God bless me with a pretty screwed up brain and I could very easily compartmentalize so that I could. I could be the the the contract killer her and then I could go home and be the little league coach or be the husband. Be the father. Be Sunday schoolteacher. I mean I I was able able to compartmentalize and never really. It was never that I didn't know who I was at any particular time I knew when when I went undercover. I assumed that identity I was that person and then as soon as I came. HOMER MERGE A guide back in to the Bob Hamer Life I was Bob Hamer so I I didn't. I didn't have that was humor tether for you because I know you've talked about having a habit a plane songs on your radio. Oh Yeah Yeah. I think that's a a lot of that somewhat. Kept Me Sane. I I think what happened. And maybe if you've talked to it sounds like you've talked to some pretty interesting. I think people on your podcast but the first time I went undercover it really was the first meeting was pretty innocuous he was but I came away with an adrenaline rush. I mean this was. This was exciting for me. I'd actually gone in to it in the meeting. My knees were shaking and it wasn't because I was scared it was because that adrenaline was just coursing through my veins and I even said as God stop the knees shaking because he sees the knees he's GonNa think there's something up and when I got done with that very first meeting it was like oh my gosh. What a rush and I wanted to it was almost like I was chasing the Adrenaline Dragon? So every every time I'd have a meeting I was trying to kind of up at a little bit more up the danger a little bit more just to get that same rush that I had from that very first I meeting so I would. I would try to do things but I also I wanted to see how far I could push it but I wanna have fun while doing it so yeah I mean you mentioned the music. I'm a country and Western fan so I mean I. That's one of the funniest ones I had was. I was involved in a sixty sixty million dollars shoulder-fired missile deal and every time the bad guy got into my car and I turn the ignition on. It was cute to Charlie Daniels Song uneasy writer in the first line. You hear on every tape is on every undercover tape. The first line you here is is. Don't you know what this man's spy he's undercover agent for the FBI. And then it's Charlie Daniels finishing up the song and I would play Jailhouse Rock folsom prison blues. I mean I'd have bad guys in the car. Literally Kinda dancing to the music as riding riding along and I'm I'm playing playing these songs I get one case I I always I guess in some ways I I kind of viewed it as a TV show. So I would have my own soundtracks and I had one guy gave me two kilos crystal meth and I timed it perfectly and it wasn't visual because it was audio I didn't have a camera it was just the audiotape. But just as he's handing the the two kilos closer crystal meth. I've got it played Herald Melville and the blue notes are singing. If you don't know me by now you'll never ever know me and I just Kinda says it all POW well then okay. There's a couple things that I can think of what that number one the fact you're so concentrating on getting your soundtrack trek right has to relieve a lot of stress. Because you're you're playing a game and that takes something away from the situation probably makes you come across is even calmer. No I think so. Also it's so blatantly obvious that it's seems unlikely and it reminds me. I'm going to reach back to Jack Barsky again. But when he is training he had to go all over Moscow etc and pick out people who might be tailing him so he would do this for days time. They have twenty thirty people and he'd have to give reports reports on who they all were and he only missed one person and it was a he was a person that he had seen before though. But what this guy. Why did is when he's when he saw him kind of met? The Guy Walked up to Emma bummed a cigarette. Okay Yeah and I. I think think there is a lot of truth to the more obvious. You are the less obvious you appear. I wore gangster five years in south central. La I'm a white guy and I was buying drugs. dugs from crew members midnight by myself in an old beat up pickup truck and when we finally broke the case and we arrested thirteen members of these various crip sets and the One guy had sold me rock cocaine on five different occasions. And I said you you know you had the suspect the white guy come down here to buy drugs and he looked any sugars head and he said you know we figured the police would be too stupid to send a white guy down here. Oh Oh my God it was just it was just I mean. It was just too obvious. They didn't they didn't pick up on it. I mean I've laughed after if you made a movie of my life people wouldn't believe it. Because you wouldn't cast Bruce Willis to be buying drugs legs in south central. La You wouldn't cash. Bruce Willis to be working in Asian criminal syndicate. I mean you'd get you know Jackie Chan and you'd get Chris rock or somebody like that. The play those different roles but I was able to do it. I was able to to to pull it off and sell whatever back story story that I developed. Well can you describe the one I feel like if the story makes sense you know then everybody will fill in details now with the operation. Was Smoking Dragon. You right tablist yourself as a property owner right and you happen to have a warehouse are house something like that right. Yeah I had. I had a warehouse. We found out through source that one of the top. Well well the top importer of counterfeit cigarettes on the West Coast was looking for one. He wanted to try to make sure that he could get his cigarettes in through the port of Los Angeles or Long Beach to the biggest ports in the world and then he needed a place to store them and then he wanted the ability to have them transported anywhere in the in the nation. So we came up with a back story that we would have the warehouse that I had access for long haul truck drivers and occasionally i. I might be able to help get this stuff. Get his containers through the ports without being seized because I had a few guys at work the port but only if they work the same days could I get their containers through so we I mean obviously we were working with customs and Immigration and they knew what we were doing and they had a limit on how many containers they were going to allow us to bring through and for the bad guys container of counterfeit cigarettes. They were investing about a quarter of a million dollars so if those containers did get sees they were out quite a bit of the money so they were willing to pay me to guarantee that that would go through so occasionally we would help them can get a container in and then we were using those cigarettes once they got in to track them. The bureau was really. This was sort of a twofold old investigation one. We were very concerned about what was getting into the port and how it was getting in and those people that were bringing in to avoid taxes axes committing crimes but also a lot of these counterfeit goods particularly the counterfeit cigarettes. Were filtering down to the MOM and pop grocery stores doors some of which were owned by Middle Easterners who were using the proceeds to finance terrorism. So it was kind of a two prong investigation investigation. Let's get the people that are bringing in the counterfeit cigarettes and let's identify those people that own the stores that are using the cigarettes stand finance terrorism out of curiosity. You've mentioned something before about always being very focused on how juries are going to accept you as has a Witness how do you look ahead. While you're building a case and cover entrapment concerns. Well I think that's that's a great question because as an undercover agent actually a as a police officer as any investigator. You've gotta think like a defense counsel you have to recognize. How are they going to be able to break down this case you're required as the FBI agent has investigator to prove each element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt? So you gotta think like a defense counsel okay okay. I can't give them this line of attack on this case I've got fill fill in all the elements and then I. I can't give them a defense so on the entrapment issue. You always have to make sure that it's really initiated By the defendant that they're the ones that are that are talking about it you. You're not you're not asking them to commit a crime that they're not predisposed to commit so it's just it varies with with the investigation but a good example into counterfeit cigarette case one. Another one of the targets was a female and she worked very hard to move these cigarettes and more than on more than one medication. I would just say hey. Why don't you get a real job you? Could you know parties. You're working you get a real job. No I like to party too much. You know. That's why I do this. And so you try to dissuade her and could actually use exactly. Yeah I think you also did that in your later case with Nambla at the last minute. Didn't you say look. The weather's horrible. Why don't we just stall a week where we try it another time? I'm impressed you read the book I appreciate. Thank you yeah. That was a little different situation in that case because we had set up a phony boat that was gonNA take them down into into Mexico where they thought they were going to have sex with little boys and the weather was horrible and I was afraid they were going to back out because of the weather so I was offering offering them the alternative not to back out of the trip but we could take a car and I drive across the border and we wouldn't have have any problems by driving across the border rather than getting on the boat but they they all chose to get on the boat and thus you were covered in the sense because look hey they really really wanted to go right in that particular case and Blah. I was able to establish pretty early on that. They had all had sex with little boys in the past that they had traveled to have sex that they had a desire right to do this so We were able to cover that element fairly quickly and you had to though because if I recall you weren't being supported initially because there was a first amendment issue by it being register organization is that right yes we really weren't targeting nambla the organization we retargeting individuals that were committing crimes. I think one of the US as assistant. United States Attorney said it best when he said NAMBLA is barnyard defecation. We're not going after the defecation were going after the flies that are offering around it and I think that was very true. That's what we were doing. Yeah Yeah and for your podcast. I cleaned up his language. Thank you thank you. What is the most interesting thing that you've encountered being undercover? Oh Well clearly the most bizarre. There's a lot of things that are interesting but the most bizarre was a case that we worked was female circumcision and I was even unaware that it was a federal violation until I was approached to be the undercover agent. But it's it's a violation. I think it was in nineteen ninety six. The Federal Government passed the that female circumcision law and it prevents anyone from performing female circumcision on a person under eighteen years of age except for medical reasons and the FBI had learned of a person that was doing this and almost killed a child after performing the surgery and so we were targeting that particular person now. Interestingly enough even if you read legislative intent it was essentially to go after these somebody from the Middle East who was practicing medicine over in the Middle East and perform these procedures and now has moved the United States and is probably driving a taxicab. Or something I was thinking we immediately more First Amendment questions that may be popping up around that case well not really because of the because it was a law in essence it was practicing medicine without a degree or certification occasion so the person that we ended up targeting the first person ever convicted under that female circumcision act was actually a white. The guy that was Tattoo artists and body modification expert. And the first meeting I had at his his house. We were talking. He presented me with a showed me a bunch of pictures of procedures performed all kinds of. You've Genitalia type of procedures. And he had eight by Tan color photographs of all this stuff that he had done escorted me into his back room where he performed the procedures and we walked into the bathroom and in the bathroom. There were two people sitting in a bathtub of blood. One was a female that had purple hair and another was a skinny white guy on a laptop computer Typing away on a laptop computer and todd who was performing reforming the procedures. He didn't believe in suturing so after he performed whatever procedures he did he. Had you sit in this herbal bathtub. Ask Tub for weeks until you healed and so I walk in and I see two people sitting in a bathtub of blood and there was no way to prepare for anything like that. I mean I would. I didn't sleep well at night. 'cause I think okay if they find my says this to me. How do I respond? So in my mind I rehearsed all these different scenarios for every undercover investigation. That I perform so that sometimes when they'd catch me me off guard I in my mind I had already been hearst that scene one hundred times and it just was able to spit out what what almost sounds to be extemporaneous exclamation in fact. It was something that I'd been rehearsing in my mind for days. But in this case when when you see two people in a bathtub of blood a woman with purple hair and a guy pounding away on his laptop computer there really wasn't any way to prepare sure and I just asked the woman. May I ask what procedure you had done. And she had just had the female circumcision and I said Oh. That's that's you know interesting willingly asking pod to do this procedure on my stepdaughter's and then when I turned to the guy and can I ask what procedure he'd had done he'd actually had his year re through rerouted through his scrotum And arming so there was just. I mean no way to prepare for for those responses so clearly it was the most bizarre encounter that I add in my undercover career. Wow you had mentioned also in the book that sometimes you had more knowledge because of obviously briefings and surveillance and things like that sort and if you were to reveal that knowledge without actually finding it out in in person you are very severe danger. Did you ever have any close calls. No but you're right I mean that is you have to. You have to be able to separate what you've learned in a briefing in what you've learned as the undercover agent. I never had the close call where I made a mistake AAC but there was one case where I was with a couple of the targets. This was an organized crime case. And the one guy hi. His given name was Craig but he went by Anthony and we had another FBI agent. I had a little too much to drink. That was supposed to be my surveillance team. And he referred to who the guy in the company of everyone as Craig but everyone knew him as anthony and I had to quickly come up with an excuse at the time I was posing as a screenwriter and I said that I recognize this guy. He was an old character actor. I said I think somebody did. Refer to you as Craig you know talking to the group of bad guys and they it Kinda bought that and I said that guy is just drunk. He's a character actor in fact I think he's having trouble even getting hired anymore because of his drinking and so they they kinda they kinda bought it but it somewhat Eric. This comes back to the zero personality. I prefer to work by myself shelf. I DIDN'T I. I usually didn't like to work with another undercover agent. I was too busy trying to protect my story and to protect myself and not have to worry about covering for somebody else. I had a couple bad instances surveillance teams so. I prefer not to have a survey on steam because I didn't WanNa get burned so it was just. It was just so much easier to to be out there by myself. Did you go by sensually. Also while you're Arthur just users yeah same always use Bob. It's my first name now. I had my middle name was always there was always a a method to my man. My first undercover name was Robert J born so that that was long before the movies but that was Robert Ludlum and then my second undercover name was was Robert William Wallace from braveheart and then my third undercover name was Robert David Webb which David Webb is Jason. bornes real name. If if you've followed the books yeah so there was again that was just kind of another way to screw who with people really just trying to give hints. And but I always kept Bob. Because I didn't want you coming up to me and in in public going. Hey Bob you know great having you on there on the podcast and this that and the bad guy turns me as I thought you said your name was George Bridge so I always. I always kept the same first name just in case I in case I ran into someone that I knew and another re from a practical tactical standpoint. This happened to me a couple of times when I was dealing with other undercover agents. Were their name. May Be Eric and I knew them. Ms Eric and I talked to them as Eric. And they're undercover name was Willie and now I've got to think okay. I've been calling you you eric for two weeks as we prepared for this case and now we're we're the bad guys either. I gotta remember that your name is Willie and and so I didn't WanNa when it caused any more anxiety for another undercover agent. So I just I always Capitol Bob. Fortunately for me Bob. It was a fairly common name. An anonymous Bob. Yeah it's Bob But I didn't have didn't have some. It's kind of strange name. That just didn't quite fit. Whatever the character I was trying to play now does? Does that. Also help in terms of and I believe you have mentioned it that you keep your fake as close to your real identity entity in some ways like like a really skilled liar is going to be telling about eighty percent of the truth. Exactly Yeah you you you lie as little a-list possible I mean if and I'm I'm being a little melodramatic here but if you're going to get killed you WanNa get killed because of a big lie not because you've been playing like you're single and all of a sudden you you talk about your wife and they said Hey I thought you were you. You know I didn't think you were married. And they end up shooting you over the stupid little line not the big lie so I for the most part I tried tried to keep as much of it as true without sharing that much so it wasn't like I sat around with the bad guys and talked about my kids and my wife and my dog and all of that. You've you've you didn't you. DidN'T I. Try Not to get that purse long running for example. Yeah Yeah and I think your first case you did actually use your wife being pregnant to say hey I gotta go to another town because of a doctor and medical stuff. Yeah she was pregnant and and we used I. I used that as as a reason that we were going to be leaving the area. Okay well reaching back and I know we're getting tight on time. I am curious. How did you live a normal life in the community? And by that I mean. Couldn't you run into these people at home depot you you know for the most part most of my career was spending. La La is a large town. A lot of my undercover work was out of town. That didn't didn't become an issue but there was one time that it hit very close to home. I was undercover agent in the La Mafia family case in in the mid eighties and that week a guy had threatened to break my legs and run me over over with the car because I'd been late with some payments and my daughter who was about six or seven at the time we were chopping at K. Mart now if B. I. Agents shop at K. Mart because they don't make that much money but I didn't think that Tony Soprano shopped at K. Mart and all of a sudden I'm I'm with my daughter in K.. Mart holding her hand and I look up and here comes the guy that has threatened to break break my legs and run me over with a car and I I grabbed my daughter. And we kinda hustled out the the back of Kmart sued the warehouse area and it was a month or two later. We actually a parent teacher conference. And my doc. My daughter's teacher mentioned that my daughter said that her dad was very special that he could take her to the place for the regular customers weren't allowed to go a kmart so the mouth of babies. Yeah yeah she didn't she didn't she didn't blow my cover as an undercover agent but So we kinda laughed. Thought that was funny but that was in terms of being with the family. That's as close. It's it's ever McCain been when I was actually undercover. I had a couple pretty close calls with civilians. You said civilians billions Civilians as a family or non-criminal. Yeah nine criminals. I mean I I talked about in the book and in the last undercover but I was was literally sitting in the lobby of a hotel with a half million dollars awaiting two kilos of China white heroin talking with an international heroin dealer or who just told me that his partner was in the lobby with the gun and if anything went wrong I was going to be the first person that they'd kill and in walked a couple apple that I had lived with When I was going to school before I got married and they weren't older couple? This is in Cincinnati. Ohio and I was in Los Angeles. So we're talking two thousand miles away and they walked right into into the lobby. The hotel and the wife saw me and I kind of shook my head very subtly that this is not the time for grips and grins. And she realized something was wrong and Should her husband toward the elevators away from the the main lobby lobby and within about ten minutes Tequila show up and we arrested three international heroin dealers. But it's Kinda one of those things again again. If you saw that on a movie you wouldn't believe it. Yeah that doesn't happen two thousand miles away a decade earlier. If it wasn't gonNA tell that would be less is likely but as a hotel people travel. I could totally see that happening. Well it did. Wow and thank God. She was sharp. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah because they were they were they were great couple. They were Okay I I don't know who your audience is. No no offense to Tupperware people bowl but they were the tupperware distributors Cincinnati. And they were they revive Asia's he would be the guy that would come up and slap you on the back and you you know hey bob how's the FBI type of greeting okay. So at least they knew what you did so when you have that sidelong glance Oh oh all right well I wanNA pull out on a happy note. You've been on Oprah okay. Yeah wow how did that come about when we when we finished up with the NAMBLA investigation the case and we we indited. Eight members of the group's inner circle and one of those members was a PhD psychologists that worked at to Chicago area hospitals. So it made the Chicago Tribune. It was Pretty big article in the Chicago Tribune about about this guy and it was right when Chris Hansen was renewing. What's going on for another season of Catcher Predator? So she he was having Chris Hansen on and I think I I won't speak for Oprah and our producing staff but I think they didn't want to devote the entire show to Chris Hansen so they were looking for some other filler but still along the lines of the child predators and credibility they. They reached out for me. Well awesome now. Where can people find out more bob? Hamer Dot net. Yeah Bob Hammer. Dot Net B. o. b. h. a. m. e. r. Dr Dot Net and. There will be access to my books. So you get to see those or some sample chapters and some quick links if if you're interested in in buying them and if you WanNa get Ahold of me to come and speak to your group I would. I would love to do that for a fee. I'm not well I'm I'm not easy but I'm cheap. But thank you so much for taking the time. Thanks thanks Eric for having me I appreciate it very much So there you haven't Bob Hamer fantastic guest best great story and one here more guests. Please subscribe tell a friend and don't forget to check out the Youtube Channel where you can interact with unstructured. Guess personally when the spirit of sharing of like to present a couple of other shows you may WANNA check out Steve Veronica A- and we we we have a podcast all about podcasting we cover everything related to the craft. How to start a podcast? How to prove a podcast hard to promote a podcast and how to reach a bigger audience so come check out our podcast? pod sounds cool. We're on all of the podcast players or on our website pottstown school dot com. We we are dedicated to provide our policies with up to date EC and actionable information sometimes outrageous and always fun and know about through regularly scheduled. Oh programming what was that like. Might just be the most intriguing podcast you'll ever hear. Each episode is a conversation with a regular person person who's been through an extremely unusual situation like Jeremy who was bitten by a rattlesnake for Jennifer who accidentally killed someone or luke who got caught smuggling cocaine real people in unreal situations. Listen and subscribe at. What was that? Like DOT COM.

FBI Eric Capitol Bob US CIA Jack Doc Barsky youtube Hamer Bob Hamer bob Dan NAMBLA federal government Marine Corps Bob Hamer Christina Los Angeles Chase Hughes officer Chicago Tribune
Fred Burton former State Department counter-terrorism deputy chief, DSS Special Agent and author

Unstructured Interviews

55:11 min | Last month

Fred Burton former State Department counter-terrorism deputy chief, DSS Special Agent and author

"My name is Eric and this is unstructured or we have dynamic informal conversations with some amazing people. Today we are joined by an amazing guest with an amazing career. Same as Fred Burton is. Really Hero. I mean. He has been all over the world and has walked through sadly a big chunk of terrorism in the Middle East that we've suffered under. Now start a lighter note. How're you doing today Fred? I'm doing just fine, Eric? Guy. I appreciate that introduction by but no stretch of the imagination should anybody consider a hero? I think anyone who is doing their best to save lives is a hero be it a firefighter, a soldier or somebody WHO's trying to stop? Sorry I'm GonNa pin the label on you just wear it. Well. Thank you. You're very kind to say that. and. I'm going to start off with the you started your Book Ghost which I've been reading with a list. And it's a lot of years later. Since you started your list. Are there still a lot of names on the list or has the list been whittled down a bit? It has been whittled down a bit I've managed to. Work my way through quite a few years since we PUT The list together and From my perspective there there's still a lot of loose ends Eric, the the kind of drive me. especially the older I get. recognizing that the hourglass of time has kind of shifted. And that that's one of my motivations for. Hearkening back to the days of the seventies and eighties with my stories. Just because. I feel that there's a lot of loose ends that I kind of left hanging and my old case files. Is there also a fear and I'm going to bring up a previous guest who was GonNa seem unusual to you but Jack Barsky was the KGB agent who lived undercover in the United States. He is now an American citizen and very patriotic. He loves the country. But he fears as I do he's in his seventies and. People don't remember. The Soviet Union? Were starting to age out. Do you also fear that maybe some people are starting to age out and we're just tired or just tired of hearing about it here and maybe neglecting some of those loosens your speaking. I think that that's a very good point that Jack and you have made I think if you look at My timeframe when I was a special agents That was a long time ago now and The world has changed and if you put if you put it in perspective of it's been a long time since nine eleven adults, and then there are adults right and then you look at our almost twenty years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But what people don't realize is that as a student of history and I'm always reading that you really do need to understand how we got here and donder stand the events of nine eleven. or to understand Jack's perspective of the Cold War in the KGB. you really do have to wind back the clock and look at some of these events began in the fifties and the sixties in the seventies, the eighties. and. I don't know I think it was Joe Rogan who originally said it? I thought he had a great analogy. He he called the Middle East the townies of the world. And what he meant by that is I don't know if you're familiar with Boston but they have people who never leave and they're kind of like the local rabble rousers, they never changed. They hold grudges got everything going for time and they just fight they never get along. His thought is that the Middle East cradle civilization dangerous never left and all the old grudges and everything else. They've never moved on from them with that be a fair analogy. I, look at it. This way I tell junior analysts or when I'm talking to students that if you want a job for life. You should try to be a Middle Eastern intelligence analyst. Because, you're always going to be employed. With, the Israeli Palestinian issue with the events unfolding. In the Middle East and there are some places that are impossible to fix because of the geopolitics of the world. So it's one of those kinds of things that you could do eric that is job security. Forever, if you want to focus on Middle Eastern terrorism violence, the geopolitics of the region. When and isn't that the problem? No, I mean. They think in terms of generations and lifetime's they're not. They're not short term thinkers. They don't worry about two years ahead. They actually worry about their kids bombing a sort of their grandkids, bombing us or. Or whatever, and I feel like they're much more patient than we are I. Think you brought up an example the book that an operation was planned in nineteen ninety-three and carried out in two thousand eight. Yeah and they are in many ways looking at the American footprint and they understand that we are in impatient kind of people. And that we are very much driven by. Election cycles not to mention the current violence that's taking place inside our great nation. But. They do see that every four years maybe eight years we're going to get a new National Security Council a new administration. That's going to shift gears and go in different directions, and that's the way that it's always been. So when you look at their perception of events, they really are in for the long game and most of us in this country. art like that. You look at American corporations they're very much quarter driven. You look at the day to day lives of most of us were worried about how to stay healthy and Kovin, and the upcoming presidential election. We're not thinking about a generation ahead. We're hoping to survive or hoping to lead a good life and be prosperous, and we're hoping our kids will have a better life than we did. That was a great abrupt corporations I forgot the number but I think sixty five percent of the S. and P. Five hundred in two thousand or gone. Yeah. I'm not surprised with that number but I just know from interaction with corporations that. They do care to some degree about forecasting. But for the most part, they're very much driven by this quarter. And, maybe they're looking at the next quarter. So that's one of the problems when you start trying to deal with this kind of issue. That everybody that you're dealing with in the Middle East. Are Looking at this from the perspective of. Is the president going to be reelected or is there going to be a change of administrations if so who was going to be the new secretary of State? Which Direction will the National Security Council go? What will be the priority at that moment in time? I just know when I was an agent. The terrorism was not a priority. that. We just did not have the resources to deal with the problem in that centers on the fact that the entire intelligence community in those days Eric were driven by the Cold War it was the US versus the Soviet Union China and Cuba to a much lesser degree. And I hate to say this. As some of the students prejudice I mean. A lot of this is in the Third World and who cares about them anyway and I look at like Mac, Nia and you're talking about. And he's obviously was obviously a ruthless horrible killer so much blood on his hands however, he never pushed it enough to have a nine eleven on us he no, he hit things that. While they would hurt us we would kind of paper over it or get over it. Well, I. Look At. Emad mcnew as. A master terrorist and they're few and far between Eric you would have to go back to. An individual like Ali Hassan Salameh, the Red Prince of the Black September organisation, and then you can look at an e Magni who had so much American and Israeli blood on his hands. In fact, you know before nine eleven mug Nia had more US in Israeli blood on his hands than any other terrorist in the history of mankind and so he was being utilized as a tool of foreign policy for the Iranians and you see this is where the Iranians and the Middle East is such a quagmire meaning. They knew that if they could utilize an individual like Mug Nia as an agent of foreign policy, they could drive the Americans out of Lebanon. The could disrupt US global operations with. Very tactical terrorist attacks that for the most part when people turned on their TV or read about it in the Washington Post The New York Times they would say, well, isn't that embassy bombing horrible. But. It's a long way from home exactly and that was the difference in the tactical shifts like that. Bin Laden and Cliche Mohammed did without Kaieda taking the the war to the United States Mugniyah was smart enough to stay his area of responsibility and carry out all the carnage. He could there and he did a damn good job of it, and that's that's why I wanted to cover that because I felt like. Bin Laden got to ambitious. To it. I think. So I think that you know certainly I think he was surprised at the success of. The, Al Qaeda operatives in and but you know again if you if you wind back the clock Eric and you look at just the tempo and pace a horrific that were happening to us in the eighties in Lebanon, for example, with the. US Embassy not being bond. Once twice all the hostages were being kidnapped all the hijackings they were taking place globally, the assassinations and. Kidnappings and murders. Mughniyah was on his reign of terror that was. Always ahead of us and we could never get in front of those kinds of problems because our intelligence community, the counterterrorism efforts were simply to dysfunctional. And because it was. Overseas, there was never that sense of urgency that we saw unfold after nine eleven. Can we go through it all because you brought it up before I think you kind of wild things are going before I'm. I'm of the understanding that Black September is sort of the. Starting of the modern wave would that be a good analogy or thought? In would you know I tell? Analysts since students of terrorism this all the time. If if you want to understand how we got here, you have to go back and look at an organization called the Black September organisation, which was basically. Yes. Or Arafat's secret terrorist organization much like the Iranians used Emad Mug. Nia. embassies. So here you had this group lack September, which is most people know them related to the nineteen seventy-two unique massacre or the eleven Israeli. Athletes were assassinated why that is a pivotal moment Harrick. This is the first time the terrorism Israeli broadcast into the American household. You had everybody tuned in to watch the Olympics in Munich and seventy two and all of a sudden. You had this horrific terrorist attack. You had that very infamous picture of the mask terrorist on the balcony that just became icon Eric Kinda define the moment. and. That event changed special event security forever meaning That was the kind of watershed moment that as you fast forward to today really changed how you protect special events and Olympic athletes and large scale. INAUGURATIONS and. Speeches and so forth. So The Black September organisation. A. Really. Put a their mark on global terror and they were intertwined with the. Red Army Faction with the Italian Red Brigades. With the Japanese Red Army. And they were capable of killing and did kill. Especially Israeli intelligence officers. Likely have not seen before. And so for anybody that's watching this if you really want to see a good. Film that kind of depict? What took place look at Steven Spielberg's movie Munich And it's very well done and it really explains. How the Black September Organisation Came into being and how then the Israelis unleashed. What was called the wrath of God squats how the Israelis decided. We're going to go after and hunt down everybody that was involved in Munich and we're going to kill him. And so why that's important is because the Israelis really began what what we see now the rendition program meaning. The targeted either kidnapping or assassination well, they did it before nazi-hunters to right. So he did they did. that. Right. There's a pattern there that it's kind of like their their their own national security requirement that they look at that. As. A tactic that is part of their DNA part of their operational capabilities to get even the hunt down these individuals whether they're Nazis or terrorists as part of their their own internal security apparatus. Old Testament. Yeah very much. So and saw that's but but you know the the interesting part is the tactics involved with each really kinda launched a whole counter-terrorism. Kinda innovation. how could you go about infiltrating group meaning? How do you locate terrorists? How do you survey them? Will. It boils down to having human assets and the ability to get close to people and the Israelis. They're very small service, but when they decide the laser fixate on a problem. They really can get the job done. They also getting they have long term thinking. That's right that's right and so when the Israelis decide to go after somebody, they do a good job of it and Related to the Black September organization you know I wrote a book. After my book goes called Chasing Shadows and that was the story of an Israeli intelligence officer gunned down in Bethesda Maryland. Yes and that was Colonel Joe Along He was a hero of the Israeli air. Force. And he was sent to Washington DC, the Israeli air attache at the time. I am black September during this tit for tat moment came in to a Maryland and assassinated Joe on the front lawn of his house when he pulled into his driveway late at night with his wife and that was also a pivotal moment insecurity because before that. Israeli diplomats really were not protected. They lived out on the economy and and homes and rental resonances so After that the Israelis moved all there was pre Munich or not I'm just trying to. Post. Seventy two you had the. Munich massacre and then on July first nineteen seventy-three. Coming up with another anniversary you know, Colonel Alon was gunned down. On the front lawn of his house, and so you know that was the case when I was in. That I tried to revisit. In the eighties but we have so many cold cases during that time period that and we are confronted with so many ongoing terrorist attacks that were just never ending that there wasn't enough time to go back to some of these old cold cases. So I would dabble with as time permitted that brings us into another a major terrorist even though I don't think he was involved with the directly. He just had the intelligence about it. Carlos the Jackal. Yeah that the Jackal I remember as a young agent We had these accordion folder air again there was no computers knows days we have three by five index cards was our database and. You know Motorola pagers no cell phones you know most of the people watching this won't remember those days but. It literally was those kinds of days and I had. This grainy surveillance picture of Carlos, the Jackal. On my wall and I had an thumb tacked on my wall and I don't remember where we got the surveillance picture from probably the Israelis but Lord knows who and He was of course. The poster child of terror in those days throughout the sixties and the seventies predominantly before Munich and so anybody that grew up in that time period knew who he was because he carried out this flamboyant terrorist attack on on OPEC and took hostages and and he was this kind of guy that nobody could find and. It really spoke to the problem when I was there Eric that the Jackal was this kind of that nobody could find. And It wasn't a priority really to find him. He did the tech Americans. So correct easily killing her smart one. McNeil. Right. He kind of floated on the side and the attack the French. The French were terrible about you know they just kind of rolled over all the time they they did and but. The interesting part about the Jackal is and the commonalities with these groups from that time period is they were getting a heck of a lot of support that we found out after the wall fell. After the Cold War. That that the Russian. KGB was funding and training and providing material support to all these old leftist. Socialists. Slash. Communists. Like the Jackal because they were again wanted to disrupt the United States, very similar to kind of the election disruptions are we saw LASCO around and no doubt we'll see him again in the upcoming election you know the Russians believe if they can cause chaos. That it's GonNa totally discombobulated United States. And that's what they were using people like the Jackal Four. So you know he was very effective for a long period of time and it took a long time before you know what we were able to catch him. Would you brought up in your book and I seem like I'm jumping around but it does sort of tied together the theory of mice. Was it money ideology compromise or ego corral the Jackal from what I've read was a communist. Named after Lenin himself and really was not that ideological. In it for cash. Yeah. The Jackal in my judgment and I've read everything written about him and I've communicated with. His. At at one point has wife Magdalena Kopp, she recently passed away She was a notorious terrorist ourself and I was Kinda shocked when she agreed to talk to me. But. The Jack was very much a mercenary. He was a hired gun and he worked for the Soviets he worked for a Moammar Gaddafi in the Libyans he worked for the Cuban intelligence service he worked for the Venezuelans. So you know whoever had the highest dollar he would work for. And he was surely motivated by money If you look at the the mice, he just so happened to be that kind of paid hitman that was a very useful tool of the Soviet Union at that time you know to help create all this chaos around the globe. He also was motivated a little bit I think by his fame and Robert Ludlum helped him along with the Bourne identity which kind of added to his legend, his name itself was pulled from what Frederick Forsyth's that was left in the hotel room. Yeah? Day of the Jackal. Is a great read by the way. Okay. Awesome. Well, any espionage that you recommend think would be definitely high in the list. Yeah. The day of the Jackal still resonates today and it's always on my. Mind reading list is a recommended read for any any student of protection or security because. Remember remembers this famous quote about all. All Big Manhattan bodyguards that foresights talks about in the day of the Jackal, and we used to have that hanging and our protection office. In Washington DC because you know it was just one of those kind of. A books that just kind of set the tone for everybody on how you should try to protect people well in its Fr- sadly of sure Carlos was studying at himself a home. Yeah. No doubt. There are tells and I know that you're in the field that you've got to watch out for to like you know who the leader is by the fact that there to the right all the time or to laughed or I don't remember all the tells but there are certain factors or if you stand back see who refers to if you make an event happen, you know hit everybody look at there's a lot of. Espionage tricks like that would be fair. Very Fair. Observation skills people don't realize how important just basic observation skills are to not only stay alive and stay safe but it's really kind of a lost art eric I mean you see everybody today just walking around you know staring into their iphone and they're not they're. And they're never observant and So that's just asking for trouble for the most part either from street. Crime. And just from an intelligence perspective, you know if you have a device that can not only be monitored. The can be tracked and mapped, and then people just not paying attention. So you know early on when we started doing our surveillance programs to help protect the likes of. The Yasser Arafat's of the world or Princess Diana. When she came to the United States, you know we would just sit back and watch and we would be dressed down like you and I are today and we would be outside of that traditional protection bubble. That you you got the the the good luck agents with earpieces in the ray bans and we were on the perimeter just looking for those threats before they get in. So. That's one of the things that I learned in the course of my career that you know. You have to be looking for that kind of activity before it turns operational meaning. You learn quickly as an agent in the protection business that your kill zone is like three to seven feet. and. Basically, most agents op diamond are in a bubble around protect. They're looking for hands. They're looking for demeanor, but you very rarely look outside of that three to seven foot kind of. Little bubble that you're in. So the whole premise of our counter surveillance program that we developed centered on being on the outside looking for threats before they got on the inside. And so it's it's a very effective program to protect high value targets, buildings, people, CEO's today heads of state or threaten personalities, and it's also the kind of. Protection that can be unfolded and it's not visible. So, for example, there's a whole range of people. That really don't want a visible security bubble around them. Sure. But they WANNA, know that they're safe. And so that counter surveillance model is one that works very well with those kinds of personalities. It's also tremendous program to use children in children of high net worth you know children of of celebrities and so forth that Wanna go about a normal life but their parents are still very, very much worried about kidnapping are her threats sure. Now you you speak about being low-profile your agency was so low profile that I had never heard of it and most people had, can you tell us about the DSS? I sure can if you look at at that's not surprising You know that's why before we were, we went on the air here I I would tell people that I was a State Department special agent. All okay. Then I get it. most people have never heard of the diplomatic security service that's getting better. But the organization has been around since one, thousand, nine, hundred sixteen. And I was I called the Office of security for the State Department and they had a chief special agent. And so in in those days, we were looking at some verses and sabotage and spies going back to the first war war. Then of course, you harkening to the World War Two. But one of the problems that the State Department has had historically is we have to protect all the diplomats abroad. So, they have special agents that are in every consulate and embassy in the world today, and that's called the Diplomatic Security Service they also provide a the diplomatic couriers meaning your traditional. Briefcase. you know with the hand profiteer to arrest. They're not important I was looking for mine here. I still have mine ear somewhere but now again, find it it's not handcuffed my wrist. But? You know they provide a safeguard of equipment going to embassies to make sure that the Russians are the Cubans Arco put any listening devices in. You know and those used to be pretty cool jobs. You know if you want to see the world become a diplomatic earlier, that's under the Diplomatic Security Service and the DSS also. Does passport and Visa Fraud Investigations. They do protect them intelligence investigations, which was part of the program that that I started in ran they managed the rewards for Justice Program the twenty million dollar program for Bin Laden and the program that was used hunt down Saddam. Hussein. I use the program to Hunt Down Ramsey Yosef the mastermind of the First World Trade Center bombing. Now, you've actually personally handled a million and a half dollars in a suit a briefcase, right? Eric I've gotten much much more credit for that than I deserve. Money still staggering to have that much money in possession. Crazy, it was somewhat crazy but it's not your money. It's the taxpayers money. and. It it you'll be surprised. You know I think it was a you know it all fit in GSA black briefcase You know the funny part of that really was When we would pay those reward amounts, we would have to tell the recipient that they had to report that as income to the IRS. And Yeah, we get these crazy stairs like vocation. Sure. and. You know we would have to make them sign a forum that they're gonNA reports the IRS and some of these people you never get to see him again, right and. So you know but that was just one of the absurdities of that program. But what most people don't realize about the DSS Eric is that we protect a heck of a lot of people visit the United, states, you know the Princess Diana's of the world. you know those kinds of people we manage large-scale special events like the Olympics. The United Nations general assemblies, and we work hand in glove with other federal partners. The US Secret Service is a big partner I wanted to go. I'm confused. I will admit that I'm very grumpy about all the agencies out there. Like I understand I. Could be wrong in police set me straight but I always want to be honest I feel like why do we have a secret service at Sei? You know why do we have all these three letter agencies when some of the mission seem to overlap so much that Wouldn't he would it make more sense for them to be part of the same agency that would be sharing information within itself? Well. I I understand I've heard that a lot over the years. But do you really WanNa Global Single Police Force? You know somewhat argued that the F. B. I. has become that today. They they've got their hands in everything from counterintelligence counterterrorism to. Weapons of mass destruction to you've aimed at the FBI has got their hand it and they're global. Now, you know some would say that maybe they've got too much authority forty. But when you look at the breakdown of these different agencies, each one has very unique statutory authority you know for the State Department dss, it's for. The protection of official Americans overseas for passport and Visa Fraud Investigations for Threat Investigations for Protective Intelligence Investigations for the protection of individuals that are not heads of state. And so the Secret Service has protection of the president, the vice president of former presidents but they also have visiting heads of state, how about the estate or the House Speaker of the House, is protected by the US Capitol Police. Okay see where I go. Crazy. Yes. I I understand. I understand it and you know the ATF has gun investigations and explosives investigation. So each agency has their own little bailiwick, but in today's. Terrorism were. Most of them do work together in fusion centers and under under the DHS. War under the joint terrorism test force that the F. B. I. has. So you know it's not unusual today to see all these agencies working together. Hand in glove too saw a unique problem. Now you did mention before I watched interviews with you too in addition to the reading I. Believe of one of these lectures you were answering questions and you mentioned that one of the problems we have though is There are no first generation Somalis in the FBI. An example that you used or Sudanese or somebody like that, and the reason was that they couldn't vet them to give him a clearance. So then we're losing the talent of people who could be absolutely patriotic. But they can't be cleared to actually do the intelligence. Can you elaborate on that a little bit sure if you look at well when I joined the State Department Diplomatic Security Service, you know most of the agents we had very few women We had very few African Americans, I think in my. Class There were two African American agents maybe just one if memory serves me right I'm going back a few years now. And so you had you had an organization like ours that was. Everybody look like me and you're not going to be infiltrating Hezbollah or Al. Qaeda looking like me and so if you look at a part of the counter terrorism problems that are confronting our country today. You take a melting pot like New York City in The New York City intelligence division of the NYPD. has done a good job of bringing in various. Ethnic groups of minorities to work different problems, and that's how when you start looking at. Our counterterrorism problems across the country why the FBI has taken some local and state police officers in under their joint terrorism task force capacity. Because organizations have reached out and hired local cops that are representative of the communities that they live and work in have grown up in. And the US government clearance process is really very old school kind of Cold War fixated on. I've got to investigate Burton's. Parents just in case he Soviet spies they weren't. You know my dad was a coal miner from West Virginia. But my point is that people they they go back that far and they look in becomes very, very problematic to try to investigate. A. First Generation American. That might have immigrated here from Somalia or the Sudan or Lebanon. So that's part of the challenged when it comes to just hiring good people. So. This is one of the things that I think the FBI understands and they recognize and other agencies are trying to deal with this as well. That's good. So things are improving from yes. This thing I think that was a ten year old interview. So maybe that is. Stuff as we move along or they're getting desperate enough to try it well, I think that you know for the most part I think the. Federal law enforcement has to be representative of our nation as a whole. And I think that it's critical that we look into you know having the best qualified applicants from all the different organizations and representatives from. All the different. Groups in general because we need their help, it makes organizations much more stronger. It makes them much more. Inclusive and can be used in the communities to foster better relations. End To try to break down some of the barriers that you know these horrific problems were starting to see unfold across our great nation today you know just. All you know in the law enforcement entity. Yeah. We have some definite internal issues too and I kind of wonder if in the nineties. Things like the World Trade Center may have gotten downplayed because we had an Oklahoma City. Yes in Waco remember that a ruby. and. Ruby. Ridge and. The. List goes on You Know I. I have said this before others might disagree, but I lived through this time period. Eric. The assassination of Rabbi Meir Kahane have the Jewish defensively again New York City which was before the First World Trade Center bombing at ninety. Three. was really the first strike on US soil by Al Qaeda. And Gypsum national by the name of L. Sii. Nosair. Gunned Down Rabbi Markelle Hani. After speaking of and New York City. And you know that weapon was traced I trace that weapon to the Egyptian army. And I remember Sitting Back Thanking Hal now held at a gun that the US sold to the Egyptian army ends up in a political murder in the streets of New York City. And, then as you start to look into nosair. that investigation really started to unfold after the First World Trade Center bombing and you saw we had this nest. Of Individual Server here to put together the first World Trade Center plot, the killings Rabbi Mark Haughty, and then they also had this. Oh my gosh, you know horrendous hit list of attacks. At the waldorf-astoria hotel you know efforts to try to assassinate President Mubarak of. visit the United States. To try to shoot down the presidential helicopter. Let's plans to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge. You know when you set back and you think while you know maybe those plans a little bit grandiose. Not Not. Really. This was an organization that blow up the world. Trade Center the first time. And, then they came back and blew it off the second time. So you know. Just did not have have the resources and the first trade center attack to prevent it and we did not have the sources. Know inside these organizations to try to thwart some of these attacks taking place. You know it's funny. You mentioned that I had heard somewhere talking about there were under violence lately with the rioting and I don't believe it's the protesters I believe it's infiltrators who are taking advantage of a situation and black lives. So agitators. In the midst of it, but it doesn't take much but a couple people to tear up an entire downtown in a relatively short time I mean they can smash a window go throw stuff around set afire move onto the next place. Oh, without a doubt I mean you look at the complexity of Not only a nine eleven operation multiple planes suicide pilots, right? Look at the complexity of the ninety three attack very sophisticated bomb much like we saw in Oklahoma City. Where many of us were convinced was Hezbollah, at the time before Timothy McVeigh was captured yet just the scope and the modeling from some of the way the building collapsed I mean for those of you who are watching this just google the Oklahoma City bombing, and look at just the structural damage to the federal building there it and put it next to the US embassy bombing from Beirut in eighty three or eighty four, and you put them side by side. Eric and they look identical. And so I would we saw that you know the first few hours we said this has to be foreign terrorism. And I know for many hours we suspected Hezballah behind that attack because of the structural damage and just the sheer size of that bomb. And that takes a lot of work. But You look at what you talked about the ease of just using your vehicle to kill people meaning you don't have to go out and buy make bomb US your car. You know why go out and try to acquire a a pistol or A. I an auto matic? Weapon. When I, your old car, a truck will do. So you know those challenges, but you know to me, as I look back on my career here to this time period era gives the there's two key points that constantly surface in one was. A lack of humid a lack of human intelligence meaning. We did not have sources inside these organizations to tell us what was going to happen. And the second failure point was a lack of tactical analysis meaning after all these attacks. We always found needles buried in the haystack. Those warnings and indicators said something was coming. So. If you break it down our ability to find those needles now in the haystack or so much better. But every successful attack and every successful tag going forward, you will find those two components. He will find that we lack human intelligence and we lack the tactical analysis to find those needles in a haystack. Would it be fair to say we might lack the And? I don't know if that would fall under tactical analysis or not. But you know the whole thing of wow. They were flying planes but never wanted to land them. There's a leap of imagination to say. That's weird. What could they be doing I? Mean it's not a natural thing that we would. You know think of right I think no, you're absolutely right I. mean that was one of the nine eleven commission's findings that there was a failure of imagination. I think most of us that that work down in the weeds knew that these groups were capable of surveilling the Waldorf Astoria surveilling the Brooklyn Bridge and that they were fully capable of doing these kinds of attacks the problem rested with our inability to have someone close enough inside infiltrate this organization to know what was going on. It's Kinda like it. Oh, before we started shouting. For your video on your podcast in order to understand what we talked about you gotTa have source coverage of that conversation sure through technical means. Through one of us is an informant to say Eric said this and so that at times is what we always lacked. and. That is so hard to find people that you can double. That can work those kinds of cases for you. That's that's always been kind of our Achilles. Heel. The difficulty of getting close these terrorist groups is we've just lacked that placement of human sources in these organizations will use Israel quite allow for that. Right well, we use our five is partners. You know we use the Brett's. They're very good at human intelligence collection. The Israelis are are very, very good at certain targets sets namely, Iran has bailout. Palestinians? the Jordanians are. Some of the best in the region when it comes suggest monitoring. Subversive groups and terrorist organizations, and then you know the Saudis have picked up their game so we rely heavily heavily. On liaison networks with our foreign counterparts and. And that's what a lot of Americans don't understand. That as big as the US intelligence community is in, it's pretty big. That at the end of the day, we still rely heavily on foreign intelligence to get in front of these threats well, and part of that too is because we we love our technology and a lot of the people were fighting against while there. They have millennial thinking as an they've been doing this for millennium. And they can handle message to one another. They don't necessarily have to use a cell phone, they have old family connections and that that's very hard to infiltrate to. Right. If they're really tight lipped, they're like I grew up with you. I knew I knew your sister whatever how do you get into that kind of a group and we also don't control the geography meaning that's that's huge. I. Mean. If you look at the success of, let's give the FBI shouts if you look at the success of the FBI of breaking organized crimes back. It's because you know what happened in areas that we control the geography New York City let's use his example where you do have the ability to get in with human sources, technology wiretaps to go about. Piecing together the problem. When we're relying on trying to infiltrate you know groups like Hezbollah or Al Qaeda. We don't own that geography. So we are greatly reliant on our foreign intelligence partners to help us a that makes total sense. Now, I'm going to jump ahead to the guess most common name, Osama bin Laden. and. It. Was Interesting to watch in you and I think two, thousand, nine intellectual youth thought he might already be dead. You're connected and maybe you can answer question for me. Why are there? No pictures of him. After death. We're very happy to have. Saddam Hussein, his kids shown everything else but. Bin Laden honestly there doesn't seem to be much proof of anything. Well, I think that the reason that. A decision was made not to produce photographs of Bin Laden. Was, predicated upon some strategic decision points. Now, I've had the honor of seeing Admiral mcraven speak a couple of times at at at events talking about the Bin Laden raid, and I've also had the opportunity to talk with a few folks that were deployed on that mission. And remember you know you're following guidance given to you from the National Security Council or the White House at those moments in time. And I think that if you look back and I certainly was not in a position to be part of that decision matrix those are decided I had been long out of the government at that point in time but I can see how they could make that decision because you know you had such a charismatic leader of an organization that and there was such fear of what could happen next the blowback. That I think that. In, retrospect it was probably the right decision to make really because you know if I had to be asked at that time, what's the best thing to do I probably would have decided that myself. if I was in a position or someone asked because I think what you don't want to do eric is give these groups especially like Al. Qaeda. The opportunity you know until utilize that kind of footage or pictures forever. And we've seen that again. Yeah the martyrdom we seen that historically, and so you know from from that perspective I think that was the right call. and. You know who am I to second-guessed decision making? Leaders at that moment in time and I certainly had the respect for Admiral mcraven you know in the efforts that The team undertook but you know again you know my hat's off to the CIA and For finding him, you know you had a whole long list of analysts that had worked very quietly behind the scenes. Because I was hard work. to try to piece together exactly where he was what's Good to hear, and it's definitely something to think of because I thought of in terms of like they put Saddam's boys up. So people would say, okay. Yeah they are dead did as true it's not a lie. Because there was so much misinformation going all the time that, oh, no, they're not really dead. America's line they always lie. Blah Blah Blah. So I didn't know if it wouldn't have been a good idea to say hey. He is dead. I think. I think there are certain incidents over the course of history that. you know sometimes I'm a big believer in transparency when it comes to issues like this, but you know in reality if you look at that. You can never recreate these moments of time Eric that would some of these decisions made and you know it's it's very difficult to think about that meaning. You know here we are now looking back on that event and saying, okay if we released that photograph now photographs now would it be a big deal? Very well might. But my point is that for whatever point in time that moment and the decision was made they the National Security Council deem that it was the right call to make that time. And you know I think it's very difficult to step back and look at those. It's it's kind kinda like I'll use my Mike chasing shadows analogy. My the murder of Colonel Alon and nineteen seventy-three. You. Know you look at that case today and you say, well, that case solvable. Well, it sure is today Russia. Yeah I mean it wasn't solvable in nineteen seventy-three. I mean you did not have. DNA. YOU DID NOT HAVE A. Forensic Technology. You did not have crime scene techs, and so people are you know you didn't have CSI you know you didn't have these vans rolled up and and locked down the crime scene and look for trace evidence. Is So. I think it's important when you look at some of these old cases like that, you know that that you have to put yourself in that timeframe. Not only forensically but from an intelligence perspective and also from a foreign. Policy Perspective. And thank you know who would we? Who would we potentially have harmed by doing that and what would have been the blowback to five is or to our Ford. Intelligence partners well on that note. There so much to talk to you about. And we need to wrap up on this one I. Have a livestream where I bring up pre previous guests to answer my questions, my audience questions and their own audience questions. I was wondering if you might enjoy or entertain the idea of coming back for livestream where people could ask you questions directly love to be happy to bring them on. Okay. Fantastic. For now, people can find you at strap four DOT com. Yes, and they can also find me yet. Official F- REDBIRD official Fred Birt DOT COM which is my website to yes and buy books. Well, thank you I would love that. By all. And I can tell you right now ghost is excellent book. Is a real life book but as reads like a spy thriller, it's really really cool. And I appreciate you coming on so much Erik thank you so much for having me. You're very kind to happy on. vk. Thanks for. And if you like what you her please consider subscribing for free and I mean four free, it is always free. There's no billing anything else. You can subscribe in your player of choice, which is probably right in your hands or you can good unstructured pod dot com and there are plenty of links there. Thank you so much and in the spirit of sharing, here's a couple more shows you may want check out what's. Up Everybody. It's Bright Allen, and I am the host of the open Mike podcast where no topic is limits here at the open Mike we talked to many different people we talked to celebrities, entrepreneurs, psychics, celebrities, and everything in between I would like to encourage you to listen and subscribe. You can learn more about the show at the open mic podcast dot net again thank you so much until next time. Cheers and be well. Welcome to Growth Mindset University. My Name is Jordan Harris Twenty one year old author and host of this show, and with this show you and I will embark on a journey to learn the things that we should have learned in school. But did not that we make take control of our lives while fulfilling our vision of success. Each episode will feature brand new lesson, and now it's time for today's lesson. So put your thinking cap on because school is now in session.

Eric United States Bin Laden FBI Middle East Soviet Union National Security Council Munich Diplomatic Security Service New York City State Department Fred Burton KGB Washington Saddam Hussein Yasser Arafat Carlos World Trade Center
125: Feedback Friday | How to Cure PLOM (Poor Little Old Me) Disease

The Jordan Harbinger Show

42:27 min | 1 year ago

125: Feedback Friday | How to Cure PLOM (Poor Little Old Me) Disease

"Welcome to feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan harbinger. And I'm here with producer Jason to Filipo. I hope you had a happy thanksgiving. If you celebrated American thanksgiving the other day, if you celebrate Canadian thanksgiving, I also had a great thanksgiving whenever that was here on the Jordan harbinger show. We love having conversations with our fascinating guests and this week. We had Dr David bus talking about jealousy mate retention in. Why people do seemingly irrational things in relationships in order to keep their partner or upgrade to another partner? And we had my friend. Kristen Carney here on the topic of depression, which is extremely common here around the holidays, especially of course, our primary mission is to pass along our guests insights, and our experiences and insights along you. In other words, the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you. And that's what we're going to do today here on feedback. Friday, you can reach us Friday at Jordan, harbinger dot com. Try to keep them concise. If you can it really does help us get your question answered here on the air as always got some fun once and. We've got some doozy's. So I can't wait to dive in Jason. What's the first thing out of the mailbag? Hey, Jordan Jenin Jason. I'm very close to my sister, who's twenty seven and his two years older than myself who's been married for seven years and has four kids. I've also been friends with her husband who's twenty eight off and on over the years years ago. My parents caution be on it being inappropriate for her husband, and I to be close buddies. So we've been distant friends for a long time. We struck up a bit of a friendship again if you weeks ago, just sending funny memes back and forth in a group message shortly afterwards he confided in me over a private text that he was dissatisfied with the lack of sex in their relationship. So encouraged my sister in a roundabout way to be sure to not become one of quote, unquote, those wives who shut off that part of the relationship. I offered to keep the kids for a weekend. Encourage them to spend some time together. My sister is a growth mindset type of woman a hard worker, incredibly generous fairly sheltered in naturally. Pretty despite having four kids pulling it from all sides day and night. She's a little stressed at their tight budget. But she's a positive person with deeply conservative. Christian roots? I checked in with him again this evening because he wasn't responding to my questions about whether I had helped since she responded, very, positively when I encouraged her to check in with him about how they're doing. His response was basically that it didn't move the bar enough. Even when I suggested that he outright teller is frustration and request more sex. I'm a very straightforward person that way he proceeded to tell me that it's useless. He's tried it which I doubt and that he's constantly fantasizing about other women in his almost cheated several times going as far as driving to a girls place. The reason I kept texting him was that I hope to be a reasoning influence to prevent him from talking himself into cheating on my sister, which I predict he's dangerously close to doing. He was her only boyfriend, and she's always been very sheltered and would probably never even consider that he cheated on her. He's a bit controlling which she never minded he's always tended to be buddies with females but not really with the guys he's always struggled with plumbed disease. Poor little old me. I've never heard that before this great now me needed. That's hilarious. It was bullied by. His brothers badly up until a few years ago. His attitude has always been at me against the world in picking and choosing sides for things she has a nursing baby a toddler a three year old and a six year old. This would absolutely devastated her. He spends long hours away working or going to rodeos horse shows, movies, etc. With my eighteen year old sister who is his best, buddy. And he's really pulled away from his family over the past year, wait with her eighteen year old sister. So wait, the husband who is fantasizing about other women and is confiding in one sister hangs out mostly with their younger sister hall. So yeah, this is so a key. All alright continue. Yes. I I mean, there's so many red flags popping up already. Yeah. He gets up early works long hours and goes home late goes out to drink alone or on trips alone. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can't out him in any way without creating an absolute hell for the entire family. My sister may actually suspect something since she went to see an outside counselor recently. She's trying. To keep their struggles, quiet and deal with it alone. I would be grateful for advice. He would hate me forever. If I told anyone in he would know if it came out in any form that it came from me, my family would ex communicate them if they knew and my sister would probably never trust another man again. He was her prince charming not to mention her preoccupation with four kids. He even told me that he fantasized about me. Ooh, not good. Okay. I while are finished bring it home. I got thoughts. And if he would admit that to me, then I know he's totally out of his mind in the past. He was very conservative very grounded and stable, but work has been a roller coaster of stress for a couple years. Now money is tight his church split in. It's all changed him dramatically is it possible to get him back into his right mind before it's too late or do. I watch silently until everything until eventually the plane has crashed and help pick up the pieces PSA. This is why you should never have kids early. If you marry young signed watching a plane crash all my gosh. This is Bonk. Okay. So in a way, the parents were right about her not buddying up to the husband so much. But then again, not knowing this wouldn't really have helped that much either because it would have just gone unchecked. I don't really get that. I I also don't totally agree. But hey, you can't be really close to your sister's husband your family. You should be able to do that. Without some sort of weird uncontrollable Pena's from the husband. Right. Like what the hell? But here's here's the first thing. Number one. He's already cheated. I don't know it as a fact I don't need to. He may even have a girlfriend dudes go out and goes on trips by himself. Okay. Maybe that's legit. But first of all he sounds like a skis for sure, and he's going all these trips and everything alone with his wife and four kids at home. First of all seems narcissists period. Secondly, he's already cheated. I can promise you the other thing is he's on the property wants to sleep with you to no surprise here. Right. He's what watching a plane crash is definitely on his list of. Of women that he's trying to get after this was clear to me, even before she mentioned that he said he fantasized about her, right? So so this when he said, oh, I've decided about you too. I was like, yeah. No surprise there. I was waiting for that in the Email in this whole lack of sex rant was actually just him testing the waters with with her. Yup. So this isn't like, oh, I I have this problem in my marriage. No, no, no. This is him being like, hey, f y. I'm throwing a little flag out here. Right. You're in the prison yard rolling up your sleeve to show off your tattoo. And so that you know, you can find the right crowd. That's what that was. The other thing is he's hanging out all the time with your eighteen year old scissor what the hell is going on over there. Yeah. Apparently, their parents didn't tell the eighteen year old the memo that he should stay that. She should stay away from him. I know what the heck this is a disaster. Waiting to happen slash has already happened. I really hope it hasn't. Are you one? What I would ask her is. Are you one hundred percent sure that nothing is going on between your eighteen year old sister and him what grown men hangs out with an eighteen year old girl? That's a sister of his wife in all kinds of different scenarios. It's different. Look if they're the only two people that are interested in horses or something like that fine. But even then every all the time, it's just this does not check out, man. This has me thinking this guy's going for a trifecta for all three sisters. Yeah. Because he's a crazy person do and look. Eighteen is young age people that age are often easy to manipulate people ten years older than that are easy to manipulate. This sounds fishy. Especially given everything else. There is no way that nothing is going on here. Yeah. You can't you cannot sit. You cannot just sit back and watch this implode. You have to come clean the best way to do. This is to gather. I think Jason you can help me out here. But gather screen shots of what's going on here of the text messages. Get a babysitter for your sister's kids, again, any sort of evidence you need because you're not just going to be able to tell this. You have to show this so get the screen shots together. Get him save get him on your phone, whatever then get a babysitter for your sister's kids, get her for the entire day girls day out whatever you need to do you should then sit her down in private either at your house or get a hotel room or something. So that nobody can surprise you guys. You don't want people showing up. You don't want interruptions. You don't want somebody running to the other? Room and tell dad you've gotta tell your sister, everything will she be mad at you for talking to her husband probably that'll pass. You may even wanna get your mother a few hours prior and tell her I'm on the fence about this though. Because if mom's advice was don't talk to your sister's husband because I don't know because it's eighteen forty two. Then you got something. That's something strange is going on here. Right. But use your judgement. This get your mother a few hours prior tell her and get her on your side. Do not tell her on the phone. Make sure you have your mother and private because what we don't want is mom can't handle it and goes all my God. Larry Jonah has tax from. So like what you do. And then he goes and gets the shotgun. Yup. And then suddenly were in the middle of showdown in the front yard with all the neighbors watching and the kids are crying in the window while grandpa pistol whips daddy. Yeah. So get your mother if you can trust her with this as support get your sister alone without the kids and without a, sir. Certainly without the husband, and hopefully he's going to be gone for a few days. Ideally, because she's not going to recover by seven PM when he gets home from work, right? Yeah. And show them everything. Don't explain it show them everything your sister's going to need a lot of support with this. You're going to need to get a therapist for the marriage lawyers for the divorce if that's what's in the cards. This is a doozy. I am sorry. You're going through this. And I, you know, now that I think about it, you might even depending on how this all goes, you might even wanna have eighteen year old sister, probably not in the room but afterwards and go what's going on. Yeah. Because I foresee. Mother crying followed by sister crying. And then you bring in the eighteen year old whenever the dust is settled a little bit. And then she confesses something really disgusting to all of you. Or hints at it. Yeah. I'm afraid of that. I hope that that's not the case. But it's better to take care of it now than to wait until things get even worse. And then you're going to have to come clean later about all of that. And the fact that you knew the whole time, and you didn't protect your sister. Because you were worried about her getting mad at you. And you're gonna regret that if you wait, what do you think about timing on this though because the holidays are here? This is coming up on house. This is going to ruin the kid's Christmas. Okay. Good point fair. So the the writer here don't tell anyone if you decide not to do it right now for the holidays and the kids don't tell anyone else because what you don't want is mom kind knows and somebody else dad found out, but you manage to keep him calm, but he's not good at hiding his emotions and your husband knows too. And that's not gonna work. You know, you can maybe you can maybe Ventoux your hus- husband. I would go to a therapist and have. A thera- professional wingman for this type of thing. Because where this is not something you want to be able to take on yourself, and then sit on for the whole holiday, and then also dot dot dot, you know, you're going crazy. And the whole thing's a miserable experience for you. I would get a professional man for this in the form of therapist. If that makes sense this is so ugly. Man. I I don't I don't I need a shower now. Yes is so ugly who let's move onto another. Yeah. Next up. Hello, Jake Ube. Nice. I have an issue with the business owner of my side hustle. Basically. I teach music lessons on the side of my full-time gig. I'm employed through our local performing arts studio in a small town. I love the students in what I do. However, I've recently had issues with the owner of the studio. She's generally a good person who cares about her students. And once the studio to be a good environment not held down by perfection, but fun for the kids. My issue happens when it comes to administrative business. The owner isn't the most organized person she often jokes about how disorganized she is. And how she forgets things. A lot. That's the worst. I am so disorganized. But I'm still smarter than you about everything. And I signed your paycheck. Right. Exactly. Oh my gosh. However, she expects her employees to basically be mind readers. There have been several times where I or another employees have been reprimanded due to something. We quote unquote, should've known I believe she thinks she's setting clear expectations. But often when we think we know how something has to be done. She gets upset at us that we didn't know the expectations are exact details about how a procedure should be in the first place. This makes things difficult as it takes several weeks. If not months into new procedures being introduced for them to be implemented. Exactly, how she had it in her mind when we confront her about not understanding a procedure or is often dismissive as if we're asking stupid questions and should know this. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way and recently when an employee stood up for self and stated that it wasn't fair. How the owner was treating us that employee was fired. Ooh, I'm concerned that the owner has gotten into in. It's so hard to find good help mentality. And doesn't realize how she's coming across and making her employees feel I want her business to be successful. And it's great to have some arts and culture in a one stop light town. However, I don't know how long I can walk on eggshells around there without being one hundred percent shore on certain procedures and expectations any advice on how to approach this. Should I give her advice? Ask the other employees. What they think if they'd be willing to have a sit down with the owner, any advice will be helpful. Thank you so much for everything that you do. Sincerely, not a mind reader along question. But short answer, this is bad leadership one. Oh, one whenever things aren't clear to the team. That's always the fault of the communicator. In fact, whenever you're communicating and things aren't clear to other people. It's always you. Yeah. Like, look, I mean, there are exceptions. But no, it's always you. You gotta take extreme ownership here on this. Or at least I should say your leader, your boss should take. Ownership here since that's not happening. You've gotta take extreme ownership as well. So extreme ownership in this case, by the way, credit Jaakko for that concept. Chaka will like the case for extreme ownership here is that you not a mind reader need to realize you're either going to continue to put up with this crap. You're going to get fired or there's going to be a mutiny. I don't see too many other options here by mutiny. I mean, you can group up with the other staff and you can air your concerns. You may still get fired though, right, especially if you're the one that has the side hustle and everyone else's fulltime. Even if you get them all to confront her. And she's like who started this. They're all going to point at you. Because you're the one who doesn't need this for the mortgage. So be careful, but that's the if you're comfortable with that as a potential consequence, then I say go for it to be prepared for that. Maybe you can teach the lessons out of your home. Instead, this way, your side hustle is intact. And you are your own boss at that point. And I'm sorry to hear about this. But bad leaders who are. Self-aware can be pretty dangerous to be around because nothing is ever their fault. And that's a huge problem that you're not gonna fix on your own. I've worked with people like that pretty recently. Yeah. Yep. Those people are gone truth. This is feedback Friday. We'll be right back after this. This episode is also sponsored in part by gusto gusto is a payroll benefits in HR for modern small businesses. We actually use it here at the company and the shell. And if you have a business, or, you know, someone who does you probably know that small businesses small business owners like house. Well, we were a lot of hats. And some of those hats great, but some like filing taxes and running payroll, not so much fun. And that's where gusto comes in gusto for Jenn. It's been making payroll taxes HR pretty easy for small business like us fast and simple, payroll processing, benefits expert, HR support in one place and running your payroll with gusto takes seven minutes, or so on average and gusto automatically pays and files federal state and local taxes. So you don't even have to worry about it. Plus, they make it really easy to add on health benefits and even 4._0._1._K's for your team. So those old school clunky payroll providers, which obviously were not built for the way modern small businesses work, you can ditch those and go with gusto. Let them handle one of those hats listeners, get three months free. Once they run their first payroll. Go to gusto dot com slash Jordan. And try a demo and see for yourself at gusto dot com slash Jordan. That's gusto dot com slash Jordan to get three months free. When you run your first payroll, by the way, everybody I'm looking for some creative spaces in which to record the show. They have to be quiet spaces, of course. But I'm going to New York Los Angeles on the regular. I do hit other big cities as well San Francisco, especially so if you are the manager of a hotel, and you've got an art space that's open during the day, or if you have a cool bar that has a private room. That's actually really quiet during the daytime or in the early evening something like that. This is great we've gotten a lot of emails from people who have really nice homes, managed, bars and other venues that are mostly empty during the day, except for a couple of staff, etc. This is really great. We're going to be doing a lot of video this coming year. And so I do the interviews in person. And if I don't have to rent a sound studio, but can have a kind of cool unique space. That's not. So sterile. It really is great. So if you have something like that shoot me an Email Jordan at Jordan, harbinger dot com. These are super helpful would love to hang out with you there as well. If it's your spot, and, you know, take to lunch or something like that as well. You can meet the the guests of the show, of course, in Jenin, I'll be there. So if you have a great space and it's quiet enough during the day while we're there Jordan at Jordan, harbinger dot com. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening in supporting the show to learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. Now, let's hear some more of your questions here on feedback Friday. Hi, jordan. Jason Jen and team I've signed up for the level. One course at Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level. One and have been working my way, very slowly through the material to try and ensure that the habits embed properly I found the tasks a perfect fit for the fifteen to thirty ish minutes. It takes in the evening to settle my three year old son to sleep these networking actions. Have already started to pay dividends. With a recent modification to the conditions at my workplace. I'm now on the hunt for a new job and already have options available through some of my contacts. I've also ended up with at least one of them acting as something of a mentor to me in my professional career. So thanks for those techniques. My question is using these networking skills. How does one actively developed new contacts is it a somewhat passive process that occurs organically through the networking habits? You've described I'm still very much at the threshold of my industry subsector and would love some advice on how to consider this aspect of my network development. Thanks ready to learn so yes, ready to learn networking is. A way of being in a set of habits. What I mean by that is you don't have to go and turn it on. You don't this isn't have to be something where you're like, oh, I gotta go to seven networking meetings a month and then glad hand in hand out. Vistaprint business cards that curl up in people's hands. When they hit moisture, I hate those, you know by doing what you're doing in level one, you're constantly meeting new people and jewelry engaging weaker or dormant network ties. And that's a great practice. The reason is because everyone thinks I don't know anyone you do tons of people. They're just dormant ties in your network, you need to reactivate those the key to that is consistency. And then of course, adding value by giving without the expectation of getting anything in return. So if you re engage people everyday using the stuff from level one, and you help other people consistently without the attachment of getting anything in return in order to add value and become a hub of that network. You're going to find loads of opportunity and introductions to new contacts. Those people will come back out of your network as well. Thanks for the note and keep hammering away at level one. If you wanna get into level one Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level. One is where that's at next up guys almost two years ago. I started a job in local government and loved it. But it was part time. I'm thirty years old and needed a good salary and benefits. I asked my boss if my job would go full time in the coming year. And she said she didn't think so one day her boss, and I went out to lunch. He lost a bet and had to buy and he told me that if you could help me find a job fulltime somewhere else he'd be happy to help. I'd never even brought up my job situation to them. So I took this to be the final word, you're not going fulltime. I started to look in ended up with an offer from another town. I verbally accepted their offer on a Friday because why wouldn't I I was told my current job wasn't going full time. When I went in on Monday to give my boss my two weeks. She said to give her a few days, she came back with a fulltime offer just like that. I'm probably not eve, but I never expected this to happen. It beat the new towns offer. And I preferred to stay at my current job. Anyhow, I called the new. Town apologized and said that my current job gave me an offer that I would be accepting. They were not too pleased on the phone. I felt terrible. I still love my current job. And don't -ticipant leaving anytime soon. But there are only so many towns in my area. And I don't wanna burn bridge. I also really did like the people I interviewed with is there a way I can reconnect with them since local governments don't really compete with each other. It would be nice to have a connection to share ideas with and get a different perspective from in. Of course, if the worst should happen. Gotta dig the well before I'm thirsty, right? Signed mending the bridge. Wow. Okay. Great. This is actually really good question because you should be mending bridges, or at least ideally, not burning them in the first place. So definitely reach back out to them ask if you can buy them a coffee at some point in the coming week and you'll head over there and tell them they don't have to come to you. Of course, clarify that. You're not asking for your job offer to be put back on the table because I have a feeling that when you call and you say, hey, I'd love to meet up with you, blah, blah, blah together. Lunch. Get you a Cup of coffee. They're going to be like, look, we filled the position and you're going to say, yeah. But I realized that I could have handled that better, and I want to repair this relationship because I think that in the future, I would love to make sure that you know, you know, that I'm looking out for you and vice versa. And I would love to make sure that I have a chance to repair this. And they might even say, oh, well, you're fine. It's fine. We were disappointed, and you say, yeah, I know, and I want to find out how I can help what you're doing and make it better. And then continue to help you in the future. If that doesn't work then they don't want to they want ever want to see again. But that something and there's gonna work offer to help them find someone else for the position if that's still open, and if you can and ask what their other needs are as well. When you meet up like all, well, what we're looking for is this what we can't find that. Or you know in our office. One of our biggest pains in the butt is this, and you might say, actually, we kind of have this this process for that. Like, oh, yeah. You got paper stacking up and the printer room, actually, what we did is one of us will chipped in and went to. Walmart and got this container. And now the the thing is off the floor. You know, there's a lot of little tweaks that people do in offices. And if the offices are largely the same with similar processes like a government, you can probably help them and vice versa. So I strongly recommend checking that out and figuring out what their needs are and helping them explain the situation and just accept the fact that you could have handled it better if that indeed is the case, and they weren't just disappointed not to get you said if they sounded disappointed on the phone. They might have been like, oh, man. We thought we had you. They might not be like that guy's a jerk. You just you don't know. So you wanna find out then keep in touch with those people in that office on the regular via Email, text, whatever's appropriate and then make helpful double opt in introductions. And if you don't know what those are if you don't know what the double opt in intro is go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. We'll teach at there and be as valuable as you can to and for them over the next few years. But I love what your heads at. You never wanna leave a bridge burn if you can avoid it. So best of luck and keep in touch. We'll be right back with more feedback Friday right after this. This episode is sponsored in part by hostgator as the late George Carlin. Once said house is just a place to put your stuff. So where do you live on the internet where do you keep your stuff? The photos the blog post memes daily correspondence between you and your two thousand closest friends the order form for your ugly. Christmas sweater knitting side-hustle if it's a free social media account. You're not even renting that house. You're squatting it in all your stuff could be gone tomorrow, if some being countered corporate decides to shut it all down to stop squatting, hostgator can get you set up with a website. That'll keep your stuff safer ever. It's as good as owning your own home on the internet. It's not free. But it's so cheap it might as well be. And you don't even need technical skills. If you can post a Facebook, you can build a website at hostgator. And that's why we recommend host Gators website builder. Hostgator allows you to choose from over one hundred mobile friendly templates, so. We'll look great on any device smartphones, tablets and desktops. And if you wanna use WordPress for your site, it only takes one click add on options are so plentiful, and you can do things like integrate with PayPal and allow customers to buy directly from your website or increase your search engine visibility. Without being an expert in SEO. You'll also get a guaranteed ninety nine point nine percent up time and hostgator support team. Is there to help you with any issues you experience twenty four seven three sixty five don't worry about all this break in the Bank hostgator is giving our wonderful listeners up to sixty two percent off all packages for new users with a forty five day complete money back guarantee. So go to hostgator dot com slash Jordan and sign up right now and quit squatting. That's hostgator dot com slash Jordan. A by the way, a lot of you have been emailing me and saying, hey, do you still coach single guys? Do you still coach single women? You know, I know you're not really into that anymore. Can you refer me, I actually do know some. Amazing people that are doing this. They're they're the best in that business hands down very very very good at what they do. I have seen some ridiculous transformations these guys and gals that I've known for a really really long time. I mean upwards of decades. So if you're one of the people that emailed me or tweeted me, or whatever meet about that. Then shoot me a message. Jordan, Jordan, harbinger dot com. I will happily refer you thanks for listening and supporting the show, your support of our advertisers is what keeps us on the air and to learn more and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. Back to the show for the conclusion of feedback Friday. All right. What's next? Hi, Jordan company. I grew up most of my life without my father. He divorced my mother when I was still a baby during my childhood. He always promised me things. But never kept his promises. He would come over to pick me up. But then didn't show up. He lied to me about gifts. I would get told me things that didn't quite match up. I was still a child and believed everything but at the age of nine having disappointment after disappointment I told him I never wanted to see him. Again. This has had a lot of impact on my entire life. I have abandonment issues, and I'm insecure all the time things have improved a lot because I worked hard on myself. I'm thirty three. Now, I had a meet up with one of his brothers a couple months ago after my father contacted me through social media in blocked me right after his message. My uncle told me that my father is indeed a liar and has been all of his life and understood all the pain I went through. It was a good conversation. He talked with my father afterwards. And my father unblocked me when I asked him why he blocked me. He told me something that was completely impossible. I can fr-. Him with his li-. He denied it and deflected. The other subjects in the conversation. He told me he wanted to tell his story, and I agreed. Although I felt frustrated since he wouldn't even tell me the truth in our first conversation in years. I got a long Email where he claims my grandfather, my mother's father sexually abused him. Once he writes about this with a lot of details. And he claims that my mother knows about it. But she claims she has no clue at all. How do I know? This is the truth. If all the ever does is li- any suggestions on how to deal with this? I don't wanna get hurt again. Thanks in search of the truth. Oh, well, so this is unfortunate. Lots of emotional wants today. Jason. Yeah. You could say that the problem here is you can never trust a liar. When people use lies as a way to manipulate other people all credibility is lost. And there is simply nothing you can or should do about it. I get that. He's your father. But in the end, I can't help. But think the reason he wrote to you just now about the supposed abuse is to get you to feel sorry for him. Look, that's. Story may even be true. But the question is does it matter. He's still Aligarh that left and damaged do growing up. He wasn't there for you. He's now trying to manipulate your feelings that I think we can both be sure about that. Yes. He wants to tell the story, but he originally blocked you, and then made up a BS reason come on, it doesn't matter if or why this happened, even if the reason is believable, it just doesn't matter when you're in a relationship with a liar who can't and won't ever tell the truth. You will get hurt. Again. There is no way around that. Let me repeat that when you're in a relationship with a liar who can't and won't ever tell the truth. You will get hurt. Again. There's no dodging it when you're around people with a certain type of operating system that operating system will affect you look when you're around your friends, and they like to laugh, they the you got that friend that laughs and jokes and brings other people up that operating system affects you when you're around people who are afraid to tell the truth and make makeup elaborate stories Liser excuses, and that's what they do to navigate the entire world. You will be collateral damage when this operating system begins to affect you. And I know it's hard to cut family out like that for good. I've done it, and it was hard. But it was one of the best decisions I ever made. And I feel better for it in. I think that you're going to have to look at this situation and probably have to make that decision. He was gone most of your life. And now he comes back, and he's pulling the same BS again. It's never gonna change. It's never gonna change. So you have to make up your mind what you wanna do. Because I like Jordan said I guarantee you will get hurt again. All right, next up high Jordan, I'm twenty two and graduating college soon after graduation Al have three months until I start my fulltime job. Should I use the money? I've saved up through college to travel for those three months or should I use it to pay my student loans? I have twenty thousand dollars in loans in six thousand dollars in my savings account. And I'm thinking about using around four thousand dollars for travel. The three months will be my last longest free time I'll ever have. And I feel I'll regret it in the future. If I don't take advantage now. At the same time. I still have to pay for my loans, and I wanna finish paying it off as soon as possible. What should I do? Sincerely, should I pay or should I go? All right. Should I pay her? Should I go debt limits freedom and limits opportunity when you have debt you're beholden to that debt? You're beholden to having to pay it, regardless of whether you're getting any sort of benefit from it. So it's a drain, and there's no necessarily not necessarily going to be any ROI consistently with that. Right. That's why you took a loan pays in advance. That said paying the additional four thousand bucks towards your twenty thousand dollar loan. It's not going to get rid of the debt. It'll make a dent yet. It'll take your interest rate down at cetera. So I think doing some travel during one of the only times that you can travel does actually make sense. The one reason I'm especially okay with this just f- way. I is because normally I want to radically dead at all costs Ivan paid off my student loans super early I was done by. I think thirty five that includes law school, which was like a hundred twenty grand or something ridiculous. One reason. Especially okay with this is because you already have a fulltime job. Right. You've got to start date in three months. If you didn't you'd need the runway a lot more. And since you, do you can budget and plan to pay off the student loans using your earnings later on down the line. So if you didn't have a job, I would be like, whoa, save that money, you'd have no idea how long it's gonna take. You don't wanna live in your parents basement, or even if you do you still need money, but since you've got to start date, barring some crazy unfortunate unlikely event you have money coming in on that date, or at least a few weeks later than that date. So you're good. Normally like, I said, I'm all about a radical that debts, you can get more flexibility and more freedom. But you're right. This is one of the only times not the only time in the near future that you're likely to have a three month break to go and explore the world, and you're not gonna have any responsibility or the projects on deck. But Jason he had a good point earlier of you kinda saw a little bit of defeatist attitude. What do you think? Yeah. When she said, this is going to be the. Three months that I'm ever going to have. I'm like, no life is long. There are going to be plenty of opportunities out there. So don't look at this as your one and only time the to cut loose because I think if you have that in the back of your head you're going to, you know, bring that to fruition. So don't think about this is the last three months think of this is a great opportunity to go see the world before you dive into the workforce. But and I'm with Jordan, I say travel because when I got out of college, I spent two months backpacking around Europe. And it was one of the greatest two months of my life. I still look back on it fondly look at the pictures so go make some memories before you go into the workforce. Because you do have a job. You've got you've got a landing pad when you get back. So I cut loose so safe travels and don't forget to download the back catalogue for the plane entering rides. All right next up. Jay. Hi, Jordan and friends. I work in an office full of people with a very different. I e much more conservative view of the world for me. I'll very often find myself in a room of employees who are discussing something, and they all seem to agree. But there. Viewpoint makes me very angry. There's no way I can agree with their viewpoint. But rather than joining in or sharing a contrarian viewpoint. I just sit there quietly fuming inside I work in North Carolina in the south has old world views so often I feel like I'm listening to grandma and her friends discuss things from the viewpoint of an older generation. Even though these people range in age from twenty three to sixty two. What should I do? Should I one sit there quietly in stupidly with likely resting bitch face, should I number to share a contrarian view or number three say something that agrees with them. Even though it hurts my soul. Thanks to. You all contrary and contrary and got it. I see what you did there. Nice nickname. Look, you're free to express opinions. But realize you're quickly going get less popular for doing. So there's nothing an what I'm reading between the lines here is everyone's conservative, and she's a liberal or something like that. That's a great way to make absolutely no friends in the office. I don't really get it. What's the benefit here to airing your views? I see no upside other than some venting, and I see lots of downside. So one thing you should not do is pretend to agree when you don't that does drive. You absolutely crazy, and you may fit better in a different work culture. If this really bothers you find another gig where you fit in a bit better. And remember, you're the outlier here. You're never going to change these people, and they're probably not going to annoy you any less in the future than they are. Now, I'd say make a jump if it bugs you that much make a jump otherwise enjoy the front row seat to how a lot of people think that don't agree with you here in America all right last, but not least from Russia. I Jordan Jason, Jen. I'm your listener from Russia. Hopefully, we've got more than one I've listened to your recent interviews with Nadia tola Cova and Michael McFaul. I also remember older episodes on Russian topics such as with Bill Browder, Garry Kasparov and Jack barsky all. All of those were really interesting ones, especially realizing how my confirmation by Scripps in. Well, I hear some controversial facts about living in Russia. All of that led me to acknowledge the fact that I'm unaware of the things that are happening in my country. I've been avoiding news and mass media because it seems like I don't get any value from that. I'm Twenty-three enjoying life being able to work on my self development and earning a decent paycheck. But Russia's history has seen all the unpredictable stresses. Moreover, financial, hyper inflation, default and currency depreciation while working on my financial resilience. I want to be prepared. What can I do to become more aware of the things that can affect my life? How to understand what is happening in this country? What are trustworthy sources of information? It. How can I separate the wheat from the chaff? Thanks for your time. I really appreciate the work. You do best regards eventually, unaware and PS. Hope you guys will be able to visit Russia next year right now, if you wanna meet and Saint Petersburg best. Welcome guaranteed. Best. Welcome guaranteed. Nice. The best thing you can do to get that. Big picture understanding is to read books, and I suggest getting an American audible account or Canadian whatever and buying books that are about Russia. Putin Soviet times the FSBA KGB etcetera, you probably can't get those in a Russian bookstore. So go ahead and starting to count thank goodness for the internet. This will give you some storylines in critical thinking skills when it comes to the government and the regime that you're definitely not getting taught in school or on the news in Russia to find dissident websites with Russian news sources, this is dissident or ex Pat. And so there's going to be some independent, and or dissident or exile Russian news sites for Russians that live overseas, you'll want to get a collection of these. So it's not just you know, one particular groups gripes with Russia or propaganda from somebody else, and you can probably find some of these posted here and there on read it when you do this. Make sure you're using a VPN it's a virtual private network, and we'll link to our favorite piece of. Software that does that here in the show notes. Jason can you tell us briefly, what VPN is how works why she needs it. It's an encrypted connection between your computer and somebody else's service. And nobody can see what's going on between the two end points. And then you tunnel through that, and you can browse the web and go wherever you need to. But they can't see where you're actually going in your country in from your ISP. Right. So the reason this is important is because Ri well, first of all reading on these websites only use the VPN. In fact, you could just use the VPN all the time. It's probably find to read whatever you want Russia, but you can be sure the FSB or whoever has software installed at internet service providers ISP's in Russia that track what everyone is reading watching and listening to and VPN's can help you get around this no guarantees, but they can help. So thanks for listening and being a fan all the way from Russia. I'd love to visit. So I may take you up on that offer. But make sure you go to the show crab that VP. And the reason is it's just not worth getting on. On the radar of authorities in countries that are a little bit authoritarian. If you're in China use a VPN, there's a reason that those countries stop people from using VPN's, it's because they're actively looking at what people are reading you hitting one dissident website. No big deal. You hitting all of them. You're gonna end up on the list. But that's how you find out. What's going on in the country period recommendation of the week three identical strangers? This is going to blow your mind Jason. So check this out this. This is a true story. This guy goes to college. I don't know in the eighties and is his first day. And everyone goes, oh, Eddie, you're back. This guy's name is Chris or something. Right. So, hey, you're back women are kissing them. People are coming up congratulating. Hey, you're back. I'm so glad to see you. You know, this is like a shy quiet guy. He's wondering what the hell's going on? He goes to his dorm room and a guy pops in and goes who the hell are you? And he goes. Oh, hi, Chris. Nice to meet you. He goes. No, no, no. Who are you? You look exactly like. Eddie. And he's like everybody's been calling the Eddie. And he goes hold on, man. We gotta ditch class. They run out. They go to a payphone. They call this guy who the guy who rented the room was like these old roommate and he's like Eddie, there's a guy in college. He looks exactly like you. And he's like what are you talking about? So they drive to his house. He's got a twin brother. Oh, my God never met him at both of them are adopted insane, man. Well, wait for it. Yeah. So they make the news because they're twins separated at birth. What are the odds that right? Well, this guy is is walk into school. He picks up a newspaper or something like that. And there's a story about these two twins separated at birth. He runs home. And as soon as he walks in the door, his mom throws a newspaper and his chest. And goes have you seen this? He goes these two guys look exactly like me. And we have the same birthday you go. So they're triplets separated at birth. And it's all this funny thing made international news. The guys are. Is they're all these jovial, cool, guys, whatever. And then, of course, plot twist some stuff that it all is not. Well, right. It's there's a reason that three triplets got separated at birth. And it's not because they couldn't find families for them. And all this other stuff. It turns out to be this really unusual set of circumstances that is both creepy and fascinating at the same time. Three identical strangers. Check it out on Amazon prime YouTube Google play will link to that in the show as well. I hope you'll enjoy that. I wanna thank everyone that wrote in this week. Don't forget you can Email us Friday at Jordan. Harbinger dot com to get your questions answered on the air. Happy to keep you anonymous, of course, a link to the show notes for this episode can be found at Jordan, harbinger dot com. Quick shout out to everyone that joined us at our first live event in Las Vegas for advanced, human dynamics. It was a great event. I'm excited to see how everyone progresses, and if you didn't know about the event, it's because we only emailed about at once in only two people that had signed up for level one. And I don't even think we got everybody on the level one list at that. It also sold out in something like three hours, which was such an awesome surprise. So if you're not on that list. Go ahead and go to Jordan, harbinger dot com. And make sure you're on the Email list. I barely Email, but I only Email about important stuff. So I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Jordan, harbinger is a great way to engage with me and the show and Jason where can they find you can find me over at my personal website at J P D dot meat, and you can check out. My other tech podcast grumpy all geeks at GO dot show or your podcast player of choice. This show is co produced with Jen harbinger. And show notes. For this episode are by Robert Fogerty, keep sending in those questions to Friday at Jordan. Harbinger dot com show the show with those you love, and even those you don't lot more in the pipeline very excited for some upcoming shows here. In the meantime, dear best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live. What you listen. And we'll see you next time.

Jordan Jason Jen Russia hostgator Jordan company gusto dot Dr David partner Kristen Carney gusto gusto depression producer Jen harbinger Chaka GO dot Filipo Amazon
114: Michael McFaul | What It's like to Stand up to Putin

The Jordan Harbinger Show

1:23:49 hr | 2 years ago

114: Michael McFaul | What It's like to Stand up to Putin

"Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger. As always I'm here with my producer, Jason Filipo. If you've been a fan of the Jordan harbinger show for a while. Now, you probably know that I'm obsessed with Russia obsessed with the former Soviet bloc oligarchs international intrigue, mafia anything having to do with Vladimir Putin. Well, not wanting to miss a front row seat to the action. I headed to Stanford University and sat down with Michael McFaul. Former US ambassador to Russia and recorded this episode live on campus aside from some minor construction knows you're going to hear a lot of fascinating stuff today. Because McFaul weaves quite the tail the day. He arrived in Russia. He faced challenges from the regime, and it was like the Cold War all over again will discover how he was able to develop relationships create allies all while under fire and will garner lots of lessons on building trust. And report and uncomfortable situations will also learn how embassador government officials and spies conduct their business overseas. Keep things secret when needed and prepare for conversations with. World leaders when the stakes are through the roof, and we'll learn how cultural angles have to be considered an adapted to when doing business cross culturally. How to get inside the mind of another culture. So you can be effective when you