20 Episode results for "Jabotinsky"

Chompers: The Musical - "Finale"

Chompers

05:49 min | 11 months ago

Chompers: The Musical - "Finale"

"Chompers is produced by Gimblett and sponsored by quip. Welcome back. We've reached the finale finale of choppers the musical make sure to listen for the bells. The tell you switch. You're brushing and make sure you're not brushing too. It's hard to brash. And that's the bell so we'll continue our lesson after recess. Okay Kids Lineup Pani. You're the line leader then in Gardy then Danny than any you did. Did you get a sticker. What about the X. Ray Vision you read minds leans now? No x-rays are just like pictures. And I didn't even get one. They don't do that every time. Danny luck do you lost a tooth to welcome to the club. Things are looking you lost Could make creation nothing like truth because now I I know how this goes. Here's what I learned. You can be all that you need it begins in your heart. Fear the unknown Ken Starr Art look for your friends and your family and you confines the truest yourself and there's nothing stronger earth and it seems. Danny what happened at your big kid checkup Yat tell us actually. It was any different than a regular checkup so no Turkey no but they abyss awesome tool called a the live footage. Actor cool trying new things can be strange. What if you take your fears and re rains them? Listen to the people who know more a three dentist or fish. Wait wait never mind. They can help you be brave. No matter how saw he might feel face like it's no big deal so by yourself try to find you can rely on yourself and and then family learned. COOLIDGE comes from deep inside improves from experiences. Astrid feared humans calm and learning from them. Helps you grow so we can play in our saw brave yeah Thanks for listening to Chompers the musical. Now all it's left to do is three to chompers. The musical was written by Marcus. Begala Mega Begala Jasmin. Jasmin Romero and Rachel Ward Danny was played by Nagin begala. Danny's brother Charlie was played by Bobby Lord then his mom Lucy was played by Jasmin. Romero Danny's friends penny Gertie and Dutch were played by Alice Cores. Renita Jabotinsky and Peter Letter. Mr Chipper was played by Jonathan Roberts. Albert's the dentist was played by game. Lozada Wendy's excrement. It's the singing talking fish. And I'm Rachel Ward also known as the dentist our editor 's Renita Job Lonski music supervision by Liz Fulton Mastering Bobby Lord production by Matilda Felino additional editing by Merrill Porn and Bill. The chompers theme is by Haley. Shaw the Chompers. The musical band is Jonathan Roberts on Piano Aaron Drescher on drums Pewter Leonard on Bass Christine Chen on cello and Marcus begala on guitar and Electric Piano. And thanks to Sara Abderrahman in Matthew Bowl. Judge Ni- Panakhov. Eric eddings James Screen. John Hahn Jesse Heart Chris Naree Nazanin Rafsanjani Tell Rochman Menial Donald Zac Smith and Wilson Sandwich. Chompers this is a production of Gimblett media. Chompers is brought to you by quip. Quip Makes Electric toothbrushes that are designed to create healthy habits for both kids and adults. Quip toothbrushes are designed to look great mounted on your Bathroom Mirror and small enough to take on the go with their built in travel cap. Plus quick makes kids brushes with all the the same features with quip brushing twice a day is even more fun grownups. Quipped starts at just twenty five dollars and you'll get your first replacement brush for

Chompers Rachel Ward Danny Chompers Gimblett Marcus begala Jasmin Romero Jonathan Roberts Jasmin Ken Starr Rachel Ward Renita Jabotinsky Turkey Gardy Judge Ni- Panakhov Astrid COOLIDGE Lozada Wendy John Hahn Jesse Electric Piano Haley
The Jewish Story Season 2, Episode 33: The Arab Revolt

Elmad Podcasts

1:10:43 hr | 1 year ago

The Jewish Story Season 2, Episode 33: The Arab Revolt

"Thank you for downloading this port calls from the pedestrians. Choose jurisprudence mortgage, NMLS HARA content. Visit Almonte dot podcasts dot ORG. Victorious warriors weaned first, and then go towards says sons, while defeated warriors go to War I in then seek to win. Why don't know if I'm at war, but I'm definitely seeking victory on the behalf of God. And I feel like if that can come about, then we'll all be winners 'cause I'm Mike Feuer. And this is the Jewish story. Episode thirty three the air revolt. We've come a long way since the question of who threw the first punch between the Arabs and the Jews. Although if you read the papers, you might think that's still what it's all about. And the fight in the land of Israel is now over much more than a particular Dunem of land, a national battle has emerged and since Zev Jabba Kinski cost the Jordan with the Jewish legion and Yosef troubled door comforted. His peers by telling him that it was good to die for their country. Not to mention the riots of the nineteen twenties Zionism has become increasingly militarized. In response. It may be worthwhile. Before you listen to this to go back to episode thirty and refresh your memory on the origins of the hate triangle that the merger between the British the Arabs. And the Jews in the land of Israel in the pattern of the pressure of Jewish immigration and land purchase the eruption of Arab violence and the British. Sponsor first, brutal repression, and then political concessions. That's how three quarters of the Palestine mandate became trans Jordan in the wake of the nineteen twenty one riots and Jewish immigration was nearly halted altogether in the wake of the nineteen twenty nine, but the nineteen thirties are going to be a whole new level of struggle between British air in ju first of all the Palestinian branch that grown out of the trunk of Arab nationalism has begun to come into its own in its growing more militant every single day because as Palestine is coming to be seen as separate from southern Syria and feels the need to differentiate itself from the new colonial state of Transjordan. Eat is hatching a growing national consciousness is a conscious which is slowed form against the family clan and regional loyalties which already defined the people living there and still do. I mean, we're talking about a mix of Felaheen of. Of the bedouin and tenor Labor's who've made their way in that's the bulk of the population, and they will be largely on politicized. But some of the wealthy and educated as well as many the urban youth be the announced above the average worker or even a few peasants dispossessed by land sales and the general economic hardships of the thirties, they're ripe for new political identity. Urban is on the rise in the world is a whole and in this region in particular as industrialization follows the rival of German Jews in the mid thirties and all their capital as we spoke about and British colonial development begins the gather steam and most peasants evicted from the land, which is either soul right out from under them by absentee owners or simply is part of a larger economic consolidation in the hands of Airborne's. They're going to move to the cities. And then there's the rapid rise in literacy amongst. Arab youth the result of the liberal educational policies, the British pursues in opposition to those which the Ottoman had downright oppressive to add to this urbanism Asian and the creation of what we would call an urban poet Harriet and the rise in educational opportunity the regional struggles of Arab nationalism during the inter war period as well as certain elements of Islam and international injury between the European empires. And then you have a picture of how the politicization of Arab culture came about and Hodge mean who Saney will still dominate Palestinian politics at the opening of the nineteen thirties from his position as head of the supreme Muslim council in thirty five. He and his family form the Palestinian Arab party in order to compete with the opposition parties, whom he quickly labeled as collaborators for their very willingness to continue meeting with and talking to Zionis the platform of the party called for resistance to these. Management of Jewish home. And even set up a youth corps. We all for which I'm sure I'm saying wrong name for an association of Arab nights from middle ages in modeled on the Hitler, youth me hear the echoes of history. I those who struggle against the crusaders and looking to their model to the greatest you hater history at their foundational meeting. How'd you means aid Jamala Husseini declared that Hitler had started off with only six followers and now had sixty million in already in nineteen thirty three only two months after Hitler took power Hodge? Amine told the German consul in Palestine the Muslims inside and outside Palestine welcomed the new regime of Germany and hope for the extension of the fascist anti-democratic governmental system to other countries the connection between hundred and the nineties will only grow stronger in the coming decade. And therefore, there will be an absolute opposition between he and his. But for now the oath that is youth corps took he's clear expression of the Palestinian Arab parties vision as we can find life. My right independence. My aspiration Arabism my principal Palestine my country, and there is no room in it for any. But arabs. I believe in this and Allah is my witness. Now, if you need a reminder about the political developments amongst the Jews during the thirties, go back and listen to episodes twenty nine and thirty two, but in brief at this point, remember, the labor Zionist control, the Jewish Agency executive, which is hard the political life of shoes in a land, Israel and also hold a dominant majority in the world Zionist council, which is nine as an outside the land as well. Then grin is already the undisputed leader with inland, though. Heim Weizman is still holding onto the presidency of the WTO outside his son will not entirely set until you opean jury, which is power base is consumed in the storm that come in opposition the revisionist led by Jabotinsky have been pushed further from the political pale as a decade has progress. I recall their failed attempt to win the executive in the early thirties. Then remember the persecutions that followed in the wake of the laws of murder and finally. Their break with the world Zionist organization and the founding of the Enzio the news INS organization of nineteen thirty five Kempinski is still a potent leader, particularly amongst the polish jury his youth movement bay tar is strong, and it's political following numbers perhaps in the millions. But he is an exile. From the issue and his followers have already been labeled as dissidents and even dangerous fanatics, and we're going to see more of that conflict further on in this episode. Ben green, actually, attempted to bridge the gap between the Jewish and Palestinian national movement in the early days. He met repeatedly with Moussa Alami head of the Palestinian Arab executive that actually had been formed in the wake of the nineteen twenty riots there he tried to argue that Zionism would develop the country to the benefit of both peoples. It was a standard line. And I think was perhaps a genuine most of the time. But. Allow me replied that he'd rather see desolate for a hundred years then sees IRAs succeed, and we're going to sense in the coming episode a lot of the scorched earth policy, which both Arabs and Jews will take over the option of sharing. So slowly. The labour Zionists are forced awaken from their losing that the violence of the nineteen twenties was the work of bloodthirsty fanatics or hooligans that they had incited Ben Graham was perhaps the first on the labor side to recognize that the twin pressures of Jewish land purchase and immigration were driving the rise of Palestinian nationalism. In fact, had helped to create a Palestinian national identity and the nineteen thirties air population is going to decline for more than eighty two percent of the mandate. The seventy percent by the end and land purchases will continue at a pace that leads Arab leadership to define it as a life or death issue as it is seen today and less you think that. Life or death issue would stop them from selling. There's an observation from Dr Heinrich Wolff German consul in Jerusalem who noted that the nationalist quote in daylight were crying out against Jewish immigration in the darkness. The night were selling lands to the Jews the harsh clarity which Jabotinsky had expressed in early. Twenties of the need resign them to develop behind an iron wall of arm might was now becoming clear to the labor Zionist as well. As Ben Greene said there's a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing we both want Palestine, and he was even still able at this point to see the situation from the air perspective where I and air said I would rise up against immigration liable sometime in the future hand the country over Jewish rule. What Arab cannot do math and stand the immigration that the rate of sixty thousand a year means Jewish state in Palestine. Well, he was certainly right. That the herbs and the mandate could do the math and that an uprising was in the making on the international scene. What contributed that uprising was Britain's failure to block Italy's occupation of Libya? Now that made the empire look weak in Arab is never something liable to contribute to stability. And when the league of nations impose talion, banks and businesses with a sanction that triggered a minor. But significant economic crisis in the issue unemployment suddenly spiked and the response to these shoes. Only added fuel to the fire of the Palestinian, nationalist struggle. Here's a quote, the history Deutz fundamental in is the conquest of labor. No matter how many Arabs are unemployed. They have no right to any job, which apostle immigrant may know era has the right to work in Jewish undertakings. If Arabs can be displaced in other work to that is good notice once again. In how Jewish labor something today, which is labeled as the province of the fanatical right was actually a core principle of the labor left. So you add to this international shift as well. As the economic struggles a major drought which struck from thirty one to thirty four and we're in for trouble. I mean in general, the all powerful image of the European empires was weakening in the thirties and nineteen thirty five street riots in Cairo led to an Egyptian treaty with the British and a general strike in Syria. Forced the same with the French. You put it all together. And the time seems ripe for a Palestinian nationalist uprising to follow suit. April. Fifteenth nineteen thirty six again of arm Arab set up a roadblock in the hill country near Karm snapping each driver that pass to ask them one simple question. Are you an Arab or are you a Jew now? If the driver was era of the extorted money from him to fund the coming revolt, and if he was a Jew, they shot him three men would be dead before this roadblock ceased the next day at the funeral of one of the victims in your fo the crowd turned violent attacking any air bystander that they could find and rumor quickly spread than an Arab woman. Several Syrian labors had been murdered in response in angry mob. Surged out of the quarter of Jaffa in the subsequent Ryan's more than nine Jews were killed and sixty injured in violence raged back and forth for two days. Eight more Jews were killed and six eras died at the hands of. The British police before calm was restored. And though the violence was triggered by unplanned. Circumstance. These incidents became known as the beginning of the great Arab revolt. And from the outset of the revolt, the traditional land leadership of Palestinian Arab society was swept aside forced to follow along as the young primarily urban nationalist, take lead those who are the product of the process of formation that we mentioned in the introduction. The higher committee. The hce was formed the leader general strike, and they declared that the Arabs the mandate would only go back to work if the British halted all Jewish immigration and land purchases, immediately and entirely the also demanded that the mandatory authorities allow for the election of a popular legislature, which their population majority, of course, allow them to dominate and this goes to a core question where they asking for their simple democratic rights or the undermining the very per. Purpose for the formation of the mandate to begin with. Don't forget Britain receive this mandate from the league of nations in order to create a national home for the Jewish people not to create a popular democracy. Either way the strike lasted half a year in though, it's actual economic impact was limited. I mean, the port Haifa remain open. The railways continued to run in the peasants continued to so and harvest, nevertheless, it's political impact proved tremendous not only was this the strongest expression of Palestinian nationalist sentiment to date and therefore a critical element in the formation of their national identity. It brought to the fore whole new class of young activists and put them in positions of power which were based on their radicalism and readiness for violence as opposed to their connection to the traditional land in clan based thorns which they replaced so along with the economic weapon of general strike nineteen thirty six. I also saw the beginning of as I said the air revolt, which really might be called a guerilla civil war between Arabs British and Jews between April and knock Tober of nineteen thirty six there were nearly two thousand attacks on Jewish targets in almost eight hundred more on British security forces and government officials eighty Jews were murdered and hundreds wounded along with the widespread destruction of property now less you think this was a one sided battle the British security. Forces took a heavy toll in return some nine hundred Arabs were killed and wounded in the first month of the volt alone. And that was despite the refusal of the mandatory authorities to apply full force in quelling the rebellion believe it or not despite those numbers High Commissioner general Arthur while shall preferred to contain the situation through controlled military force rather than simply crush the rebels outright. Now, why would that be the British aren't known for their? Empathy toward rebels. The answer is important element of the imperial perspective on our conflict because his goal was not to defeat. The his goal was to preserve British prestige in the area and to restore stability without incurring any undue animosity and bitterness amongst the majority in Palestine and in the region as a whole, but because of this soft hand so to speak but summer of nineteen thirty six the Arabs of Palestine in full revolt led by the higher committee, which gradually, but inexhaustible came under the domination of you guessed it Hajjah mean out who Saney in fact as the revolt progresses Hussein is going to use the Cass and violence opportunity to eliminate nearly every one of his political rivals through assassination or through voluntary exile when they leave on the run with a gun in behind them. That's an important element for us to remember. As we go forward. Not in this epic. Owed others that the revolt turned almost inevitably to an internecine warfare. And that will threaten the Jewish revolt to come as well. So the are in invoked and the British are doing a balancing act between their imperial aims to placate the Arabs of the region as a whole in the local need responsibility for law and order. What are the Jews doing well in April nineteenth during the very first wave of violence? A manifesto was published on behalf of the Tel Aviv. Municipality calling on the public to refrain from irresponsible acts, and it declared that quote, the return of public security depends largely on the self control and self restraint. The have gotta of the Hebrew public. That's right. Mayor doesn't golf the mayor Tel-Aviv was attempting to calm, his fellow Jews in light of the deaths of their companions by telling them that. The key to peace was have Lagasse self restraint at the same moment. More or less than grin and Jewish national fund president Menachem Shishkin, we're delivering speeches in exact similar vein and meaning of Zionist parties in Jerusalem. And so almost overnight have llegado the concept of self restraint became the official response of designers offices to the first wave of the air revolt. Now, they didn't make the idea up. It had its roots deep in the patterns of behavior that originated during the first and second vote, then the Jewish immigrants sense their own ability. And they felt that Pacific in the face violence was actually the only safe response. Don't provoke your attackers. That attitude was also enshrined in the guidelines of Hasha, Mary if you recall that first armed force of his movement, and that was despite internal dissent, which was headed by the head of himself Israel show, hot nevertheless, actual mayor rejected the idea of revenge and civilian terror in favor of selective in focus attacks, which even those only to carry out as a last resort. In the end. It would be Ben-Gurion who is most influential in installing the philosophy of have Lago restrained as the only acceptable response to the violence of air, volt in despite his political nominates of the life of the you've it was not a simple fight in the wake of the murder of five Jews in mid-may. Ben Greene was actually forced to threaten to resign from his position. As chairman of the Jewish Agency in order to compel the hug Anoc Manders in Jerusalem to refrain from taking vengeance. That's how important he was in the eyes of the shoes if he left people felt everything was over. And so the field commanders of his underground army were forced to back down. Now, we know from the street battles between labor and revisionist sinus that had rocked the issue only a few years before and from things we haven't discussed yet that Ben Gurion was not a free to use violence. But it's critical to remember particularly in light of the entrust Jewish. Struggles that lie ahead that been green had an absolute belief in the subordination of military power to civilian authority. He wasn't afraid of using violence. But he was absolutely certain that only politicians decide where how and when to use it remember that we get toward the end of this season. So this need for control had actually already caused a split within the Haganah back in nineteen thirty one. If you recall the Huggins was originally formed under the auspices of the history, drew that general labor federation of Jewish workers and that the goal of defending the Jews during the riots in the nineteen twenties. Go back to episode thirty refresher on their origins. But it turns out that not every few commander. So I I with the politicians and their notions of the appropriate. Use of force in nineteen thirty one as been green was in the process of subordinating the hug enough away. Hey from the history dude to the political leadership of the Jewish Agency executive making it truly the official army of the issue a split within the ranks took place. The Jerusalem district commander of the homey together with many of his men refuse to return their weapons to the hugging command, and they formed their own underground militia was known as your goons vi-. They'll mean, the national military organization. More commonly known at first as the Irgun bet. And then ultimately just as the Ergen, and as we'll see going forward their choice of name right national military organization versus the defense language of the Haganah was not purely cosmetic, but meantime, then greens policy of restraint of how the guy was not without logic or claims, at least morality, he knew that the Jews were still numerically weak, and therefore ultimately dependent on British military strength in order to continue to purchase one more. Him one more good. And that required the cautious use of force. He knew that if they tip the scales. Too far, there would be a brutal British response toward the Jews, especially these you there take any independent military action against air villages in grill groups, and he knew that that response could crush his nascent army. He also had a belief that the west would never forgive the Jews if the adopted a policy of revenge, and therefore he emphasized what he called the moral element of the restraint claiming that Jewish tradition. Dictator retaliation should be limited to those directly involved in attacks. Now, I don't wanna get into an analysis of David Ben Gurion's religious background. But this is not an obvious clean. And as we'll see going forward. Whatever Jewish decision may say as someone who studies teaches I can tell you could make say almost anything what you're actually hearing. Here is voice of his own psychology coming through. More on that later. Overall been green sought to place the burden of defense on the mandatory of thirties. And thereby avoid all these complications. And in reality. He's move was not without major achievements. In the first year the revolt nearly three thousand Jews were given permission to openly bear arms and many thousands. More were brought into the police in security activities together with the British forces and this official militarization was a fundamental change in the situation of the issue, the labor leadership saw these Jewish recruits to the British police has a basis for Jewish militia under British command, not even to speak of the hug enough. And they've themselves will be ready for battle once the mandate ended as Ben green boasted. This is already a little army. But that was at the beginning of the revolt by August, the situation had deteriorated because whatever the perceive strategic or moral benefits of restraint of how guy were to leaders of the labor movement, the Arab solid as a sign of cowardice and weakness, the Jews were judged to be people quote in whose veins flows milk and not blood and thirty of the eighty Jews murdered in that first phase of revolt died in the single month of August. A fierce debate erupted within them a pie leg paulie air rail that core political party of the labor movement on the policy of how Lagarde for strength bearcat. Nelson informed meeting of the national council that he would soon quote tearfully abandoned, the principle of restraint one wonders why he cried to see it go and when a gruesome series of murders rock the issue between August thirteenth and sixteenth aditorial in daily arts of all things cried out in. In the south in the north throughout the country. People are being butchered and the official labour newspaper Davar warranted headlines. If we despair of our fellows meeting, the British security forces, we shall know how to lean on ourselves finally to nurses were ambushed and killed as they were leaving the government hospital in Jaffa August seventeenth in the restraint began to fray a series of attacks by the hug enough and Irgun bet organization Jerusalem, hyper left, several Arabs dead. None of whom were in any way connected to the killing of those Jews the central committee convene to debate. The question of of LA LA restraint before it was completely broken on one side stood early. How them the architect of the hugging in a leading figure within labour Zionism in general, and he informed the assembly that was no longer a matter of your shoe security at that moment, but rather quote, the question of our existence. In the country. The time had come. He said to withdraw from the policy of restraint since quote, a war was being fought between two peoples over the future of the country a war. He said, which the Jews would lose if they were not wise enough to discover the talent for self sacrifice possessed by the roads. And that's a lot of what this question comes down to. And if you read the news and follow with happening in our country today, it's still alive question. Are we at war or not? So with the support of his fellow hugging leaders goal on propose quote group punishment for the village of perpetrator of any crime that was to be solution. And as Zamel he suggested that in response to the murder of three Jews the day before in the vicinity across Abba, hundreds of arms, juice shoot have been recruited to attack nearby calculator. And he admitted that kind of egg didn't exactly conform with the education values that have been nurtured, by the way. For movement. And Furthermore that it would inevitably affect innocent people. But nevertheless, Goldman system that launching attacks on the places from which air attackers set out was essential and far more effective and even moral than the acts of blind revenge of the previous few days. Meaning if the official armed forces did not take off the gloves, then the people would take to the streets. Standing against him. Was most shirt talk who would become Moshe eight and ultimately, the second prime minister of Israel as well as foreign minister for many years together with David Ben Gurion, and he took the podium to oppose any suggestion of reprisals. Now, you have to understand that in the absence of hind Weizman in David Ben Gurion, both of whom were in Europe at the time. He was the highest ranking of visual present in therefore, it would fall to him to approve any operations shirt claim that such a proposal for reprisal meant suicide for us, and the destruction of all we have built he actually wept. Open tears during the debate said that goals words made him feel as though he were witnessing the destruction of the second temple. And in the end share talk one the day the policy of have Lagaan of restraint was maintained. Even though the hug now was given permission to resort to special means where necessary nevertheless. The political echelons of the Jewish Agency had maintained its control over the military. The months from October nineteen thirty six all the way through the summer of nineteen thirty seven were actually quite quiet, and that was true. As a result of two things. First of all the intervention of the states, which helped put an end to the general strike which allowed the Arab higher committee to step down off the shaky branch that threatened to destroy their own economy. And second was the decision of the British to finally import thousands of regular troops from Egypt in order to crush the rebels who had begun to dominate the countryside. Well, quiet may have come for the debate about restraint was far from over. In fact, if you're in tune with Rayleigh sites day, then you know, it's a topic still liable to raise blood pressures in 'cause angry exchanges of Nazi. We go is ju- depending on what kind of crowd you running in late nineteen thirty six it was actually the poet sheltering kofsky who gave the deepest voice to this struggle. And don't forget, we are people who values poets above its fighters. Then he published with called partial DNA, the DNA affair in which he came out in support of revenge attacks. Now, China coffee was revealed by all the Jews of the issue on the right and on the left, and therefore his words couldn't be dismissed as were those of his contemporary were three Greenberg in partial DNA instead of the curse that the bible puts in the mouth of Jacob the he places on his. Suns Shimin lady for deceiving. And killing the men of them after they kidnapped and raped his daughter Dina in China Kaczynski's poem Dina blesses her two brothers for their actions. And she condemns the cowardly behavior of her other brothers who didn't rally to the slaughter. The poet had given powerful expression, the ideological and psychological tension that was tearing the shoes apart to divide which he characterized as Galut posture of exile posture, which relied on the gentiles for safety and even look to them for approval on one side and on the other side, the emerging Sabra mentality native born Israeli with posher of aggressive struggle and disdain for world opinion. Now such divide was bound to embody itself in more than poetry Haagen. Nah may have seen restraint. As expressive of the essence of labor ideology, and their particular view of Jewish morality, even though they struggled against the restraint. But the Irgun bet had no such vision as the home in its other leaders reached out to Jabotinsky and gradually became associated with his revisionist movement. The rejection by the goon of or stream became expressive of a general militant posture of the revisionists and a rejection what they saw as an egg Zilic morality, which glorified powerlessness an elevated victimhood to a sacred ideal by the end of the first phase of the revolt each of the two primary. Streams Zionism labor and revisionists could probably be said to have its own militia and beyond their different political positions. What divided them was the question of the proper posher to take toward their enemies? And so even as air violence moved into a period of low the tension between the Jews. Rose, but there's one more piece to put into place before this phase of our story can be complete because we've seen the provocation of mass Jewish immigration and felt the explosion of violence, and we know this was followed by brutal British suppression in so only the political concessions away. At the end of November nineteen thirty six just as the six month long Arab general strike came to an end a British Royal commission of inquiry headed by Lord. William Robert Wellesley peel arrived in the mandatory Palestine and truth. Be told the timing was no coincidence, officially as I said the end of the strike was due to the intervention of air rulers from throughout the region, but practically it was the mufti haj Amine allusively who greed halt, the strike in order to enable the commission to function at his word all hostile activities were suspended during their investigation at once and field marshal, John Greer feel the British military commander in Palestine view, the efficacy of his intervention as evidence of the move these total control over the revolt. So the commission the peel commission was charged quote, ascertain, the underlying causes of the disturbances. Which broke out in Palestine in the middle of April to inquire into the manner in which the mandate for Palestine is being implemented in relation to the allegations of the mandatory toward the ABS and the Jews and ascertain whether either the of the Jews had any legitimate grievances upon account of the way in which the mandate has been or is being implemented. And once they got started in a pattern that was established already back during the commissions which follow in the wake of the riots nineteen twenties. The Jewish establishment welcomed the commission and trotted out reports and witnesses and all kinds of tours or the leadership announced an official boycott nevertheless, both sides had their say during the more than seven months of testimony, which the commission heard former mayor of Jerusalem, Ruggie Nash Ashi be an opposition leader of the herbs of Palestine presented their case to the commission through unofficial channels. And meanwhile, not to be outdone by his deadly political rival, Hodge amino Saney, actually, testified in front of the commission, but in his capacity as move the Jerusalem, unlike on Ashi B's more nuanced approach to presentation al-hussein announced that an absolute opposition to any sharing of Arab lands with the Jews and the demand to a complete end to Jewish immigration was the only thing the Arabs had to say. And perhaps the most dramatic moment for the Jewish representatives came when Heim Weizman always comfortable in front of the British presented the case on behalf of unrestrained Jewish immigration in the shadow of the rising Nazi menace. He described your as a place filled with millions of Jews, quote for whom the world is divided into places where they cannot live in places where they may not go in the summer of nineteen thirty seven the peel commission released its conclusions in four hundred page report. The causes of the uprising were deemed to be. I the desire of the air was for national independence. Second their Taghizadeh to the establishment of the Jewish national home in Palestine quicken by their fear of Jewish domination. The rush of Jewish immigrants escaping from central and eastern Europe Arab alarm at the continued purchase of Arab land by the intensive character in modernism of Jewish nationalism. And lastly, the general uncertainty as to the ultimate intentions of the mandatory power because up until that last one everything that the Arabs had feared precisely what the British had been given the mandate to do. So in light of these conclusions. The commissioners recommended an end to Ambi you itty after all even in our rapid overview of the event of the last twenty years, we've seen the British promised the land of Israel to people's make plans to divide it with another power and through how to all. Pursue a policy of dividing conquer which really served own imperial purposes. But now for the first time and official government commission admitted that the mandate had become unworkable the solution. There is was to be a further partition of the Palestine mandate into era Jewish regions who ultimately political forms were to be determined. And I say further division. Lest we forget that three quarters of the land originally allotted to the mandate already divided off to make the state of Transjordan in the wake of the riots of nineteen twenty one. It's a repetition of that pattern now is important to note for the events which will unfold over the next fifteen twenty years partition was only part of this plan having heard extensive testimony regarding this cycle of fear and violence that had Royal the mandate since the British appeared the commissioners argued that in order for any agreement to become final and for the violence, deceased. There would have to be a transfer of popular. The era from the area of the Jewish state and the Jews from the Arab designated area. Now, the in Palestine were disappointed with the recommendations of the peel commission at first the opposition, mostly rugged, Michelle, she agreed to consider the partition plan at least as an option, but it wasn't long before he was forced to recant public opinion. Amongst the Arabs was in the hands of Hajim yellow Saney. He rejected partition out of hand threatened to renew the volt and essentially issued a death warrant to anybody who disagreed now. The Jewish Agency also has serious doubts about accepting the principle of dividing the land on one hand was their sense of betraying the patrimony that it'd be bequeathed to them by history. No matter how secular the labor leadership may have been. They had a vision of the wholeness of the land of Israel. And of course, all of them knew the story of Solomon's wisdom, and how the true mother is the one who refuses to divide the baby in half on the other hand land is not a baby members of the commission. I urge them that half a loaf is better than no bread at all. And the opportunity for mmediately establishing a Jewish state in order to provide a place of refuge for the Jews of Europe who had begun to flee Nazi Germany was a strong temptation, they were also well aware that securing legitimate piece of the pie didn't preclude acquiring more in the rounds of violence. They all saw as yet to come and under the leadership of Ben grin Heim Weizman talking to be the twentieth. Zionist council voted three hundred one hundred fifty to negotiate with the Woodhead commission that was sent afterwards to test the viability of these recommendations of the peel commission after all in the end of the day for the first time in a fishing British agency, head presented report, which described the Jewish national home as a Jewish state on the way, what the specific borders might look like depended mostly on what the way ahead health. The peel report was sent to the league of nations and duly approved. And in a sense partition and population transfer became foundations of regional diplomacy that persists down to very day, but nineteen thirty seven would provide no solution for the confusion in the land of Israel in the struggle between these two national movements in the face of universal Arab opposition and the growing shadow of war the need to placate the air street made the British began to back away from the conclusions of the pew report before its Inc was even dry. When the Woodhead commission with sent as I mentioned to try to negotiate the actuality of the Piel report, the issue on further report, the advocated limiting Jewish state to small area of the coastal plain and dropped entirely the idea of population transfer as Israeli historian Benny Morris said the commission had stanza been set up to look into ways of implementing the peel partition recommendation, but in effect its mandate was to bury the proposal in the entire idea. Partition by the end of nineteen thirty eight this was made clear when the colonial secretary published in additional declaration stating quote, his majesty's government. After careful study of the partition Commission's report have reached the conclusion that the political administrative and financial difficulties involved in the proposal to create independent Arab and Jewish states inside Palestine are so great that this solution of the problem is impact. Label. And as everyone knows politics, lake nature, and horrors vacuum in the absence of creative solutions. There's always the law of the jungle to fall back on. When the violence of the era revolt resumed in the summer of nineteen thirty seven two things had changed. I was that the air ABS turn their guns directly on the British as well as on the Jews on September twenty six nineteen thirty seven Louis Andrus Commissioner of the Galilee district was assassinated an act that Mark the beginning of widespread action against British rule, and that's significant for our story because Britain now really unleashed. Her full military might on the rebels during the fighting in nineteen thirty eight sixty eight British subjects two hundred ninety two Jews and at least sixteen hundred Arabs killed in by the end of the revolt in nineteen thirty nine Arab estimates were that some five thousand killed ten thousand wounded as well as nearly six thousand in prison Palestinian, American historian, Rashid Khalidi notes that over ten percent of the adult male population was killed wounded imprisoned or eggs. Piled the bridge response to the second. Phase revolt was so shattering that many historians attribute Israel's victory in nineteen forty eight in no small measure to the decimation of local air power by the British in thirty eight and thirty nine the second change, which nineteen thirty eight. Brought was amongst the Jews as the pressure of rising violence began to break the fragile consensus around how llegado restraint I didn't mention it. But during the first round violence Zev Jabotinsky had instructed the members of tar and the revisions movement to display restraint impatience this wasn't out of the same ideological belief in the value of how league is the labor movement. Rather? It was his consistent belief that only by establishing Jewish battalion as he attempted to do during war one and ultimately succeeded one which was sanctioned by the bridge of thirty only that way, would it be possible to defend the issue any politically, sustainable fashion. He wants to create a Jewish arm. He he was also opposed to tear in reprisals on moral grounds, except when there was no longer any choice. Here's this election. From one of his articles in the time. Do not dare punish the innocent. What's superficial and hypocritical nonsense in war any war? Each side is innocent. What crime has he committed against me enemy soldier who fights me? And he's as poor as I as blind as I as much a slave as I who has been recruited against his will. There is no war which is not conducted against the innocent. Therefore, every war and tribulations it brings occurred whether offensive or defensive, and if you do not wish to harm innocent, you will die, and if you do not wish to die than shoot and stop prattling. And so during the deliberations of the peel commission, Jeb Tennessee had issued clear cut orders. To the commanders of the goon, if the rights are renewed show, no restraint. And that's why it came as no surprise than in the wake of the killing of three Jews of few months later eleven Arabs were gunned down in various acts retaliation when news of these unrestrained acts reach David Ben-Gurion. He was on his way from France in the states, any noted in his diary quote. It is not out of the question that these hooligans his codename, indeed, the codename the whole labor for the revisionists are playing to use these outrages to foil, the establishment of a Jewish state now that seems strange from people who are so committed to the idea of state, but what Ben grin meant was that he suspected these were planned attacks on the part of the revisionists who pose the partition plan of the peel commission and hope to sing it by kindling, the hostilities between Arab and Jew. It was no secret as Jabotinsky opposed the division of the land of Israel in anyway, he'd been. Amongst the loudest voices. Which protested the tearing away of Transjordan from the mandate in nineteen twenty two and the your goon adopted as emblem a fist clenched around a rifle held over a map of Israel, showing both sides of the Jordan river. It's motto read Rah Kopf only thus at a gathering in Tel Aviv on September. Third nineteen thirty seven Moshe. Sure warn, the goon that the issues security forces, meaning hug, Anna would fight them. If they did not cease their terrorist activity as we'll see in the story going forward. There was no such restraint showed toward their fellow Jews. Sure. Talk announce that such acts were disgrace to the Hebrew tradition of combat exemplified by the nineteen twenty battle of hell high. These are strong words, and they deserve some serious thought. We've spoken a lot about hell high end the symbolism and symbolic power held in the mind. The early lioness let's not for gay. Get that tell high was a battle which the Jews lost in which ended in the death of their forces, and that models and essentially defensive posture. But as I pointed out last episode, the Betar's revisionists coming out of the pressure cooker of Poland or far more tuned to the argument that it's better to kill one's enemies than to die nobly at their hands. Furthermore, we have to take this term terrorism head on because an R word gets thrown around as if it were nothing everybody's condemning terrorism. Everybody's enemy is a terrorist. The one thing the west and east can agree on is that there's a need to wage war on terror, but I've got news for you. You don't make war on a method. I mean aside from the difficulty of differentiating between war in terra, which may be an edgy. But but how you can't really do it. I'll give an example, most people would agree that bombing tank on the battlefield is a legitimate, active or. I think they probably agree that bombing transport truck, which is bringing the tank from the rear guard up to the battlefront is also legitimate active or perhaps sinking the ship on which the tank was transported from the industrial base of a foreign country is also an active or what about bombing the factory in which the tank is being produced. Maybe how 'bout firebombing the neighborhoods in which the factory workers work? So that's a major problem. And for the purposes of our story as we've seen in Wilsey the Huckabee did not differ, essentially with your about methods of combat certainly not in the bitter inter-communal civil war which lies ahead. Why? Then did they call your goon terrorists? I think it's because terrorist is a word we use when we want to push people beyond the pale without having to give any real consideration to what's driving their actions. The west is not want to consider the origins and aims of radical Islam. And so we have a war on terror on a method instead of fight against jihad, which is a world view. Israel doesn't want to contemplate the complexities of the Palestinian national narrative for our own story and identity, so they're all terrorists. And none of them are part of a national liberation movement. And the labor Zionists will give no legitimacy to the revisionist not to their vision of leadership in non-socialist Jewish state nor. The more radical dream of mo-, hoot user, AOL a truly Israelite kingdom. And so they will become terrorists. Because one doesn't talk the terrorists after all. And ninth nineteen thirty seven five Jewish workers sat out to work in the field. Kibbutz kyat on a VM near Jerusalem, they were in circled by an Arab ambush. And after changed the fire all five were killed keyboards. Mala Amish off your familiar with it. The hill of five was named for them the murder stunned the Jewish community Jerusalem, but despite their pain and anger, the leaders of the Jewish Agency continued to call for restraint and on the day of the murder, an important shift took place within the mandatory government. The announced the establishment of military courts and Palestine and declared the shooting of a firearm at any person, the possession of weapons and acts of sabotage and terror all to be capital crimes. It was the first step toward martial law a martial that would only come into full during the struggle between the British and the Jews in the forties at the same time. The Jewish Agency executive made an announcement quote for bidding. Terrorism in issued a call for all loyal public institutions to use only at the disposal to uproot terrorism in the country, meaning the unrestrained in your attitude toward Jews, but not toward the Arabs the reaction of the revisionists and the goon was of an entirely different character on Sunday November fourteenth nineteen thirty seven year goon units launched a wide-scale series of retaliatory raids in various parts of the country talk. Ben, see, then chairman of the vodka me, the national council that ran the shoe called it black Sunday. But in Zion history, November fourteenth has actually gone down in their memory as the day on which the restraint was broken spirit. A have. It was not the first time that you're gonna set out to attack Arabs in retaliation for attacks on Jews. But this time the operation was carried out on the initiative of their general headquarters, and with Javid Tintin endorsement, it was David Razzie L the commander of the initial operation who believe that these attacks. Mark the transition from passive to active defense and explain the two methods as follows defensive actions alone can never succeed. He says if the objective of the war is to break the will of the enemy, and this cannot be achieved without shattering their power. We clearly cannot be content with defensive action purely defensive tactics will never break the enemy's strength. All these calculations lead to one conclusion he who does not wish to be defeated must attack. The your goons actions to the ABS completely by surprise and attacks on juiciest entirely for some time, the British police, however responded by carrying out large scale. Arrests amongst the revisionist party activists. And it was this stage of that another freeze which continues to play an important role in the internal Israeli discourse around the appropriate uses of power and violence was born purity of arms a manifesto published on behalf of the Jewish Agency. Executive in the local press on November sixteen only two days after restraint was broken declared. The following the Jewish issue with severely tested during the period of bloodshed and withstood it with courage tenacity, it defended all of our positions, but also maintained a puree of its arms of defense out of moral recognition and political maturity the issue of meticulously adhered to the boundaries of self defense and by overcoming elemental impulses in exercising. National discipline manage to avoid harming innocent. Arabs, the manifesto was composed by Ben Gurion based on drafts provided by Moshe shirt. Talk. And while it may have been expressive of a genuine desire to establish ethical norms for the growing conflict. It was certainly written to draw clear distinction between the types of military action used by hugging in those by the Edsel except a closer look at the process, which transformed the hugging into a militia which could eventually become the core of the Israeli defense. Forces gives one a sense that perhaps this manifesto is a case of the lady protest too much. Let's take a look at the man who helped make that process happen. Orde Charles Wingate was born in nineteen three in British colonial India to an officer in the British army and the daughter of missionary family. His parents were members of the Plymouth brethren a nondenominational Christian movement, which had originated back in Great Britain during the twenties and thirties that's eighteen twenties and thirties. Now, the brethren subscribed to the dispensationalist belief that was popular in the mid nineteenth century that enu. Dispense Asian was at hand on which would usher in the thousand year millennial kingdom predicted in Christian scriptures. And who's advent hinged on the restoration of the Jewish people to their land back in twenty seven we touched on the role that such Christians I is played in the lead up to Balfour declaration. And there we talked about the large scale impact of such police on the political picture. And as I noted the time, it may or may not have been the decisive factor in the British cabinet support of Zionist aims during and after World War One, but Ord Wingate embodied is. Beliefs in service of the Jewish people on a more personal scale, quite simply he believed that the bible was true that God had given the land of Israel to the people of Israel, and that their return to it would usher in the redeemed world, which he saw has a blessing for all humanity. And whether one shares his beliefs or not there's no question that they drove his actions, nor is there a doubt about the impact he made on the sinus project in general and its military posture in particular, like his father reform young Ord was commissioned into the British military in nineteen Twenty-three serving I in India, and then in the Sudan where he studied Arabic and semitic inquired a familiarity with the Middle East a natural leader if a bit eccentric by nineteen thirty six wing gate had risen to the rank of captain and that same year he was transferred to the Palestine mandate as a staff officer in military intelligence. Okay. Okay. No jokes about contradictions in terms. The revolt was fully underway when he arrived and windy immediate assessment. Was that the guerrilla war being waged in towns in countrysides was best fought with overwhelming force applied through small commando assault units. But he was not a purely military calculus. Remember Ord saw the creation of a Jewish state in the land of Israel as a religious imperative. So he further pressed that these units should be Jewish staffed in only British lead. And in the beginning. He was ignored the British were wary enough of the Jews they were training for the police force already sensing the potential for the tension between imperial interests in Jewish national aspirations to erupt into violent conflict, and in general, you know, conventional mines fear unconventional methods and unconventional messengers. I mean Wingate kept the bible with him at all times which made him on the is many contemporaries, and he was fund of coding. It not only for a fact, but as a proof for his actions, he was so intensely focused on defending the Jews. They not only put off his fellow British officers, even the Zionist didn't know what to do with them at first. This is aside from the fact that he was given to wearing alarm clock on his wrist eating onions for health virtues and lounging around in the nude nevertheless Wingate was demanding and successful commander with neck for cultivating politicians who helped him circumvent his military superiors in after only four months in the mandate. He was telling every politician whose ear he could catch that the British empire show ally itself militarily with the Jews now not only to counter the grain of the standard bridge wisdom, which as we said was to placate the majority of the region seemed to be an absurd claim on the face of it. I mean, the didn't even have an army in anyway, as I said the foreign office in the committee for imperial defence saw this situation from the exact opposite perspective. Middle East was rich in oil home to strategic military bases for the British and satisfy the routes to India and the far east by nineteen thirty eight. It was clear to the powers imperialism that the tens of millions of Arabs in the hundreds of millions of Muslims in their empire were far more important than all the Jews in Palestine or the world together at a time. When Britain was moving toward barring entry of any more Jews to land of Israel at all Wingate told everyone who would listen that the mandate could easily absorb a million Jews within seven years even claimed that the Jews would make better soldiers than British citing his bibles proof and could provide the key to preserving the empire in the general war brewing on the horizon, and we can get wasn't in a position to make clinical political policy. But he did have the power to create facts on the ground. And so he pushed ahead with his vision of Jewish commando units and in June of nineteen thirty eight when the countryside could fairly be described as in. Enemy hands. We get submitted a report titled secret appreciation of possibilities of night movements by armed forces of the crown with object of putting an end to terrorism in northern Palestine. Here's a quote, there is only one way to deal with the situation to persuade the gangs that in their predatory raids. There is every chance of the running into a government gang, which is determined to destroy them idea was to carry the offensive to the enemy to take away their initiative and keep them off balance and particular to produce as he said in their minds, the belief that government forces will move at night and cannon will surprise them either in villages or across country. And as I said the force was to be mixed British Jewish operating out of Jewish settlements rather than British bases. Jewish police in the Huggins after all had good intelligence contacts. And they knew the land or the rich had the formal training, the Queant, and of course, fischel support Wingate insisted it would. Be an unbeatable combination in as the violence of the revolt continued unabated into nineteen thirty eight argument began to gain weight in the minds of the colonial administration until eventually Archibald. Waddell commander now British forces in Palestine gave his approval. With superior officers in hand wing founded quite easy to win over the support of the Jewish Agency and the leaders of the Haganah, and it was easy because in many ways, he's planned dovetailed with what the hug and was already trying to do it's Saturday who had been tasked in nineteen thirty seven by Ben Gurion to form special units for just such offensive defense would later say for some time we did the same things when gate but on a smaller scale in with less skill. We followed peril past until he came to us in him. We found our leader. Now, you should know that was sadda- who brought the ethic of the Red Army into and it will be Wingate who teaches them the power of retribution Wingate made his main base at AIn hold why while his personal identification with the biblical judge Gideon was profound, and we all know that that guerrilla leader of the children Israel had destroyed. A large enemy force with only three hundred men. In elite units from thirty two thousand candidates, and so the special night squads came into being Wingate was trainer commander in combat soldier all rolled into one. And it's no exaggeration to say that in the creation of the special night. Squads he shaped both the fighting tradition of the hugging in of the idea the Israel defense forces that was successor taking the war to the enemy commando tactics covert operations and the use of retaliatory raids as it deterrent all left. Their Mark on the future leaders of the hug, inau who were his students and perhaps more than anything else. What left? Its Mark was Wingate's ethic of officers who led from the front a practice, which he of course, learned from his hero Gideon who told his commanders many through the Hanes ASU cmih and do the same. You can look it up in judges seven seventeen in the is was superiors Wingate's. Primary mission was to use these special night squads to ambush, the is attacking the tap line. That's the pipeline which carried oil from the fields of Iraq. So the refineries import a Haifa of vital imperial interests. But orde Wingate's goals were eschaton logical, not colonial. He had no problem serving the imperial needs of his British masters, but he's Seoul was in service of Jewish statehood and the messianic era he believed it would bring about. In by the way, you don't hold your punches when you're fighting for the messiah that's why the rated Boorda villages uses basis by the move these men, and in general sought to degrade or even destroy the military capabilities of the air force's in plant the terror of Jewish power deep into their heart. Weaned gate was the inheritor not only the military traditions the British, but also the most powerful colonial prejudice toward its servants. Therefore, he had no inhibitions in relating to the villagers. We saw as a barrier to his goals in absolutely brutal fashion. In fact, he's USA cruelty. Humiliation and severe collective punishments provoked criticism even from his supporters, not to mention his military superiors. But in the end of the day, the war being waged in the mandate from thirty six to thirty nine was marked by exceptional brutality on all sides and Wingate's s NS. Was marked by effectivity in its goals, and therefore his personal battle went on despite the calms his superiors made it had he went on that is until his problematic politics overtook, his tactical utility. He simply could not subordinate his sense of religious vision to duty as an officer in the colonial forces in late nineteen thirty eight weaned gate ask for home leave while in London. He arranged a private meeting with clone Secretary Malcolm MacDonald to lobby against the nineteen thirty eight Woodhead commission, which as we said had abandoned the proposals to partition the mandate into a viable Arab and Jewish state when word of that meeting reaches appears in Palestine they removed him from command in a may nineteen thirty nine he was transferred back to Britain. And in recognition of intense loyalty he held to Zionist cause and the potential danger his skillset posed should they come in direct conflict with British imperial interests. His passport was stamped with an entry for. Forbidding him return to Palestine or Wingate's personal involvement with the return of Jewish people to land at an end, but many of those trained as I said in the special nights went onto become heads of the palmar that was the striking arm the hug enough and later the Israel defense forces in reality, he's impacts of commander was matched by the symbolic power, which he held the minds of Zionist organization. Here was a Christian who is so committed to the Jewish mission. That is code name was Haya deed, the beloved friend in. It's how remembered down to this very day. Orde Wingate went onto fight many more battles in the service of the empire, eventually dying in the rank of Major General in a plane crash in nineteen forty four during World War Two and his epitaph is perhaps best given in his own words, which were his battle order before the opening of his grill operations in Burma victory in war cannot be counted upon. But what can be counted is that we shall go. Forward determined to do what we can do to bring this war to the end. We believe best for our friends in comrades-in-arms without boastful nece or forgetting our duty. Resolve to do the right so far as we can see the right? Our aim is to make possible government of the world in which all men can live at peace and with equal opportunity of service notice his aim equal opportunity of service. And he concludes finally knowing the vanity of man's effort and the confusion of purpose. Let us pray that God make Safdar service direct endeavors. So that. When we have done all we shall see. The fruit of our labors and be satisfied. Sorry, three years that I'm calling upon you. Pose jury who are the crown of world jury I continue to warn you incessantly that task fees coming closer, I became gray old in these years, my heart bleeds that you dear brothers and sisters. Do not see the volcano which will soon begin to spit. It's all consuming lava, I know that you are not seeing this because you are immersed in your daily worries today. However, I demand your trust. You were convinced already that my pro-gross these have already been proven to be right. If you think differently than drive me out from your midst. However, if you do believe me, then listen to me in this eleventh hour in the name of God that anyone of you save himself as long as there is still time and time there is very little. These were the prophetic words of Zev Jabotinsky. Spoken in Warsaw on the night of teashop. The ninth of in August of nineteen thirty eight as the great revolt was raging in the land of Israel in. The underground. Armies were struggling with each other over the question of restraint morality in war. The world was thinking ever closer to a volcanic explosion little more than a month after Jabotinsky speech his last address to his largest and most loyal audience. The Munich agreement was signed by the leaders of Germany, France United Kingdom, Italy, not by the tackles Avakian, by the way, who's prime territory was being offered up agreement in hopes that it would satisfy the Nazi hunger for Laban's round for more room. We know how that ended, but when Neville Chamberlain returned to ten Downing Street, he read out the agreement to the waiting crowd, and then gave a brief address which has gone down in history, at least the ending of it. My good friends. He said for the second time in our history of British Prime minister. Ariza turned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of a heart's, go home and get a nice, quiet sleep. I leave it to your knowledge of history to aspertain how much peace and quiet was actually purchased through music pack, and the darkness is only growing reaching a new death only a month or so later on the night of November ninth nineteen thirty eight Kristallnacht the night of broken glass. Jewish homes hospitals and schools were ransacked the attackers destroyed whole buildings with sledgehammers two hundred sixty seven synagogues throughout Germany, Austria, and the Sudetenland formerly Czechoslovakia were destroyed over seven thousand Jewish businesses were damaged or destroyed. Hundreds were killed or died in the aftermath. The increase down the night of broken glass comes from the shards of glass filled the streets after the windows. Of all these buildings were shattered. The violence was carried out by the essay, the Nazi paramilitary group together with German civilians, but Kristallnacht was a turning point in the Nazi political persecution of the Jews economic political and social exclusion had moved onto beatings incarceration in murder and as second in command Hermann Goering said at a conference only a day after the program, the Jewish problem will reach it solution. If in anytime soon, we'll be drawn into war beyond our border than it is obvious that we will have to manage final account with the Jews. This is the darkness which lies on the horizon of our story. And there's no avoiding the obligation to tell it stale. And I for one as the grandchild survivors couldn't manage to do it. If not for the final words of Jabotinsky on that fateful in prophetic night in Warsaw. And what else I would like to say to you. In this day on shirt of whoever of you will escape from the cat Tassie. He or she will live to see exalted moment of great Jewish wedding, the rebirth and the rise of Jewish state. I don't know if I will be privileged to see my son. Will I believe in this as I am sure. That tomorrow morning. The sun will rise. Wanna thank if you people want to thank the people give their hard earned money to help make this show free and widely available and really to make it happen. I wanted let you to join them go right now to rob Mike dot com and the upper right hand corner. You'll see a button says be a patron in click on through to give a little bit of per podcast support. I wanna thank the land of Israel network. That's the land of Israel dot com. To creating a platform allows me to reach somebody wonderful people wanna thank parties institute, a R E, S dot org dot L building school allows me to teach each the hearts and minds of so many wonderful Jews, and I wanna thank you for listening. I'm rob my foyer, and this is Jewish story. Thank you downloading this podcast from the institute of Jewish studies. The mortgage interest content visit L mud podcasts. Jay.

Israel Palestine Jewish Agency Ben Gurion Jerusalem murder official executive Zev Jabotinsky Ben green Palestinian Arab party Transjordan commander Britain Heim Weizman Ben Greene Irgun Syria Germany
The Jewish Story Season 2, Episode 36: The Revolt Against British Rule and the Struggle Within the Underground

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1:00:00 hr | 1 year ago

The Jewish Story Season 2, Episode 36: The Revolt Against British Rule and the Struggle Within the Underground

"Thank you for downloading this podcast from the process institute of Jewish studies, so more originals horror content. Visit Almonte dot par desks dot ORG. Ours is in almost biblical generation of suffering encourage said, Menachem Begin, ours is a generation of destruction and redemption. Ours is the generation that rose up from the bottomless pit of hell will history didn't place me in that generation, but God gave me the gift of telling their tale, because I'm rob Mike Feuer. And this is the Jewish story. At the sewed thirty six the revolt. So on start off with a moral question. It's an old one, a classic if you will. But one that's going to become pressing as our story progresses. And in fact, it might just be one of the more important questions of our day despite it somewhat present nature. And that is do the ends justify the means in before you rush in there with the obvious answer of. No. I wonder mind you that a few episodes ago, we touched on the problematic of the term terrorists. And then I made an argument that labeling someone a terrorist is less tool of analysis of their means than it is an effort to avoid thinking about the ends toward, which they're aiming I mean, after all, just to give it some context at this point in the Jewish story, we are in the midst of a brutal World War. In fact, in the final months of World War, Two the world will witness aside from the liberation outfits the firebombing of Dresden in which tens of thousand. Thousands of innocent civilians, will die at the hands of allied bombs not to mention the dropping of nuclear weapons on here. Ashim Nagasaki, the only time so shooting has ever been done in war, which will kill hundreds of thousands, and one might be tempted to call these acts of terror on a massive scale that light up the darkest dreams of today's terrorists and at the same time you could make an argument that they were the only way that could save lives by swiftly ending the war. And Furthermore, we look at what they actually did to the nations that were being fought. We take the wisdom of many historians who believe that the primary reason will wore one rolled so quickly into World War. Two was at the end of the great war. Germany was let unbroken that only the shattering of the enemy allows them to reenter, the fraternity of nations sufficiently humbled so that they can play a new in constructive role in. The world community. And the reality is when you look around Germany, and Japan are pillars of the rule of democratic nations today, and we have to add to this, this important in problematic idea of the rules of war, now, the Geneva conventions emerged out of the nineteenth century, European experience of the horror of total war, which, by the way, built on a good fifteen hundred years of slaughter and a deep desire to at least, ameliorate, the effects of war if the causes couldn't be totally up rooted. And I do believe that humanizing the inhuman Marxist snapped Ford for humanity. These laws embody an empathy for other in a concern for life that did not have a solid place in law beforehand. Nevertheless, the also blur, the brutal reality of the truth, that it's not armies with go to war. It societies that do the armed forces are just the most. Obvious tool of conflict. But in our present world, cyber battles in narrative warfare and terror the battlefield in the home front are once again all, but impossible to separate. Furthermore, the rules of war are stacked in the favor of the nation state just like most of international law. I mean, after all the Geneva conventions were updated in finalized, in nineteen forty nine just as the nation state was achieving its absolute victory as the only legitimate model of governance in the second half of twentieth century in down to our very day, though, it may be showing some cracks. It's still presumed to be the sole embodiment of people hood, but nation states are not the only bodies engaging in conflicts today, far from it, depending on how you count. They might actually be the minority. And you had to this, the nature of military technology, the skill of force, and the cost of that force wielded, my nation states puts non-state actors in one of two positions either have to have the cultural fortitude to wage a non-violent battle or the end up engaging in what we call a symmetrical warfare. It's a wonderful term, isn't it and one man's freedom fighter. Maybe another man's terrace. But what marks them both is the need to use tactics that lie outside the norms of warfare because they simply don't have a budget for tanks and planes, nor the political in territorial integrity to separate the home front from the battlefield, so who exactly is responsible for the death of perhaps, innocent bystanders when freedom fighting terrorists launch missiles from kindergarten roof. It's a question that belies technical analysis. You can't simply judge one set of means ver. Versus the others, and therefore it pushes us back to the question of what role the ends play in evaluating the morality of the means if we're not willing to do that. What we end up with is a situation in which anyone who managed to grab a nation state at some point in history that legitimacy will always give the upper hand both militarily and morally, and a half to say that the chapters that lie hadn't our story are filled with brutal warfare Jews. Arabs in British will fight one another and each other amongst themselves, militias terrace freedom fighters and imperial forces are all going to be struggling to the upper hand in this little slice of God's good earth. And no one's hands will be cleaned from bloodshed of the Meuse ruthless type. And so we have to add to this also the show, and I had no idea how to factor, the incomprehensible reality of national in Sturm extermination into this moral, quesion, yet, I have a sense that we can't avoid doing. So, so I wanna consider these questions closely over the upcoming episodes of the final military struggle for Jewish liberation in the land of Israel, because if we don't look at them closely and begin to try to parse out the political from the psychological view motive from the moral, then I fear that will end up in a world, which will look, just as an ran described it force in mind, she says are opposites morality ends where gun begins. August thirty first nineteen thirty nine day before the Nazis invaded, pulling the goon, general command convened for special session in Tel Aviv. Now, these underground fighters could not have known that the very next day would change the world. But nonetheless, I'm confident it was a tense in stormy meeting. It had been nearly two years since the breaking of the restraint since these militant around fighters had decided to let loose their guns and bombs and the Arabs of the mandate in the violence of the Arab. Revolt had all, but run its course, David Rozelle was not there this charismatic commander that it led the transition of the goon from passive to active defense as he called it, who had proclaimed the truth to his men net quote, the objective of war is to break the will of the enemy, and it taught them that this couldn't be done except by shattering their power was now sitting in a British jail cell, the criminal investigation department, the C I D that will hear much about today had finally caught up with him. The Jews call them the bull shit the secret police in this department was the spearhead of the British imperial rule in their struggle against the Jewish. Underground liberationists, they'd arrested him only two days after the white paper of may seventeenth nineteen thirty nine you member hope that we spoke about it, it was the paper that shut the doors of Palestine to anything. More than symbolic immigration just as you're burst into flames. In the British knew they knew that the fighters the goon would not abandon their brothers in Europe without a fight. So snatching their commander off a plane at the leader airport was quite a coup. Hana Colli was now commander in chief he replaced Rasi Al in opera yet ear stern who'd been some in backed to the land of Israel from Poland was now head of the information department and in the two months since the announcement of the white paper and Rasi, ELS arrest, your goon had gradually turned its gun on the tools of British power in the mandate. They started with somewhat symbolic acts striking telephone network, junctions rail lines, the even once plunge Jerusalem into darkness by destroying four British electricity corporation transformers, and I can imagine that the meeting that night was for the purpose of planning the next series of strikes against the British power that was blocking the escape the juice from Europe. And with the Nazi shadow already stretching its hand over Europe. I bet the mood was for escalation, but oddly enough, it was probably a more unified group with. the commander absence. Because since the breaking of the restraint David Rasi Rozelle in Avram, yet, your stern had clashed. The basic argument was over, who is the true enemy. Rasi L saw the Arabs is the main front in the battle for Jewish independence. And he looked at the British must, as his mentor Jabotinsky did wayward allies, who needed to be prodded back onto the right path, even if that product was at the point of a gun yet ear. On the other hand saw very clearly that the British were the true enemy. He's heart in mind told him that the Arabs might strike a deal, but the empire would never willingly abandon an asset like air Disraeli to anyone else's rule. Certainly not to the Jews, Razzie, owns stern. It also clashed over the relationship between and politics, yet your stern, and his comrades believe the, you're gonna head to break its dependence on the revisionist party. The league. Status. Enjoyed by these politicians made them, unfit to lead, underground revolutionize, and frankly, the public PO file made them risk the Hebrew revolution would not be led by a political party. David Rasi Ella me other hand, saw himself as a military commander in his eyes jet Kinski. And the movement's leaders were the ones who should determine the political path in the you're good like a good army should bow their authority. But whatever the mood the meeting didn't last long, right? It's height CID detectives and heavily armed policemen burst into the room, the entire general command had been discovered taking I Jaafar, and then onto your Jerusalem jail. They had no way of knowing that the war in Europe was breaking out, even as they were being taken away. But David drowsy L new because after two months he'd already settled somewhat into prison life, at least enough to have source. Of information. And as soon as word of the war reached him the commander also knew what had to be done. He may have seen the Arabs as the local opponent, but it was clear to Rozelle that Hitler was the arch enemy of the juice, and it was also clear to him that the British now stood nearly alone against him. Razzie L wrote a letter from his places detention to the British commander in chief and Palestine to the mandatory government secretary and even to the British police Commissioner, whom he had no love lost four in it. He told them that he was ready to declare a truce between the year and the British and Furthermore, he offered to help the allies in their struggle against the Nazis at the same time. Razzie L sent secret instructions to Benjamin's Roney, who is now acting commander, the goon at the arrest of the entire general command and unsafe temblor eleventh is their only distributed. The following leaflet quote, too. Void disrupting the course of the war against Germany, and in order to invest maximum effort in assisting Great Britain in its allies. The goons ally Leumi has decided to suspend all offensive activities in Palestine, which could cause harm to the British government in any way, be of assistance to the greatest enemy. The Jewish people has ever known German, Nazism. The leaflet did conclude with the hope that the war would bring quote this tortured nation. The sole recompense it deserves the chief of sovereign independence within the historic borders. Liberated homeland nevertheless, it was a truce at best in the members of the general command who are now sitting in a detention camp. Sarah fund, by the way, it's the prison adjacent to the Sarah fon camp. Britain's largest military base in the Middle East of the time, they didn't share David Rasi, ELS view. And despite the hopes expressed at the end of his. Lethem it. They read it as a message of surrender months of negotiations followed, but by June of nineteen forty David Rozelle had managed to free all of the goon prisoners in return for his commitment to a truce and is express readiness to fight on behalf of the British immediately after the release the general command held yet another stormy meeting in Tel Aviv, essentially, picking up right? Where they'd left off Avram year stern is followers. It spent nearly a year in prison, watching the British military presence grow David Rozelle. Meanwhile, having glued to his radio news of the war only days before the meeting. The allies evacuated Dunkirk Europe now belong to the Nazis. And what followed was perhaps inevitable. There was no easy way to bridge, the gap. Envision between Rasi Allen stern nor apparently much will to do so on July seventeenth nineteen forty Avram ear stern. Together with his most loyal men seceded from the or, and founded, the local may route hail the Israel freedom fighters lucky for short the split as it was known devastated. You're going along with a good chunk of the rank and file members many senior commanders withdrew and there was a rancor and recriminations and a lot of accusations and public fight in all that chaos that accompanied the break-up made underground secrecy, which was so critical to their struggle. All, but impossible to maintain the Irgun and the newborn, let me were totally exposed to both the Haganah and to the D. Each of which began to draw up, lists of names addresses and positions of the active members. But they kept those cards close to their chests now. I can't tell every story, although I have to admit it, drives me crazy that not possible. But there are a few things that you need to know about the lefty, or the stern gang as they came to be labeled by their British in Jewish. Detractors, first of all, was the unique diversity of political ideologies, held by his members and even amongst leadership. You can see this by what happened after lucky broke up in the early years of the state. Some like Yitzhak Shamir, for instance, join the mainstream right-wing parties. Shamir, of course, went onto service, prime minister on behalf of the could others went to the left not in Yellen. More found a left wing party called the fighters list, which had a short live life and only won a single seat in Israel's first elections, and some just didn't map onto the right left binary at all. There was a group of lefty. Veterans went onto establish the sa-. Committee action movement in nineteen fifty-six. They were in pursuit of a regional federation to Israel and its neighbors, based on the principle of an anti colonialist alliance of digits inhabitants of the Middle East and God willing next week, I'm going to bring in someone to speak a little bit more about such an off the map idea. But if you want to get a sense of the depth and power of the thought that went into the vision that coalesce around Avraham years, turn around the Leckie, all you need to do is read his eighteen principles of the rebirth. I'm not gonna go through mall now. Because eeking big number if you want, you can send me an Email, send do frankly, just Google it. It's two thousand eighteen people, but their goals were simple redemption of the land establishment of sovereignty and revival of the nation and devour a phrase from another evolutionary. They were willing to pursue these goals by any means necessary the. One thing you need to know. Is that the Leckie were proud terrorists? That's right. I remember actually my oldest daughter's I met the pellet her first caregiver was Alexi fighter. Sweet elderly Sparty woman named Tamar who used to get this nostalgic smile whenever I asked her to tell me stories about her life and the underground, and I'll never forget the first time. She said to me. Hang you new terrorists team. Yes, yes, we were terrorists with this. Unbelievable smile the hill. Efi saw no shame in this label on the contrary as they proclaimed in their underground publication has eat the front. Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat, we are very far from having any moral qualms, as far as our national war goes, we have the force, the commandment of the Torah whose morality surpasses that of any other bodies of law in the. World. You shall blot them out to the last man. And the explanation that was given about the goals of terror in that very article might shock you. And they may sound very familiar it demonstrates against the true terrorist who hides behind his piles of papers and laws. He has legislated. It is not directed against. People is directed against representatives. Therefore, is affected? It also shakes these shoe from their complacency. Good. And well and last the lucky were willing to negotiate with the devil himself in this case, even the Nazi Germans in order to free their brothers from Europe and throw the British out of their land. And so they rob banks to purchase weapons shot down, British policemen in the street and publish their underground manifestos. Their goal was to strike the imperial occupier in any way. They. Could in order to provoke collective punishment which would awaken the Jews of the land of Israel to the reality that they were under occupation in all the while they were looking to provide the Jews of the issue with an ideologically clear alternative to what they saw as the confusion of the hugging on the goon. Now, of course, the British did not take this escalation of violence, laying down wanted posters offering a handsome sum soon, plastered, yet years, face all over the country and he slipped from hiding place. The hiding place as one by one, the leading members of the lucky were captured or simply gunned down by the agents of the in the winter of nineteen forty two while the Nazis were bogged down at Sal and grad and the plains of the crane would just starting to soak with Jewish blood, the finally caught up with your ear. The official police records, say he was shot while trying to escape. But his lackey followers were certain that the British police had murdered yet year in cold blood, but no matter how you tell the story, the moral is the same those who are willing to give their life for their cause will be remembered, according to its righteousness and their deeds. By mid nineteen forty one I hope he recalled the British were on the defensive all over the world. The situation in the middle. East looked particularly grim. Rommel's Afrika corpse was storming across North Africa and threatening Egypt, the French Vichy government that occupied Syrian Lebanon was threatening the British basis in Palestine from the north in Iraq. Arab leaders sympathetic to the Nazi cause were in fullscale revolt. They took over the critical, most oilfields and place, a major airbase under siege. The staff of the British embassy in Baghdad were actually hostages in their hands in desperation, the empire remembered, David Rasi emails promise and the head of British intelligence in Egypt, turned to the you're going to send a unit to blow up the refineries in Baghdad hoping to at least deny the Loof the German air force the fuel reserves. Were there. Rasi quickly organized a four man unit which he decided to lead himself. Now the mission changed many times along the way, but it didn't really matter. Because when a German plane scored a direct hit on the car carrying Rasi L and a British officer, the Irgun was thrown into great confusion. It's hard to accept the loss of such a leader. And Furthermore, many members didn't really understand why Rasi L had gone on the mission to begin with did the blood of a man committed. Hebrew, liberation really serve that cause by soaking the Sandra rock. Razzie O's death, only compounded the problems that were begun by the split with the Levy their path became unclear and the internal debates only grew it might have been the Jabotinsky could have given them guidance, even from abroad, but he was gone as well. Nearly year before right about the time of the split. Debbie Tinsukia had gone to the United States in pursuit of his dream of Jewish brigade. A unit of Jews who could fight the Nazis alongside the British forces as their own national people worn out from his struggle to save European jewelry from the disaster. Roche beta had suffered for years from heart trouble in the first signs of the destruction of European Jewry, and the shattering of the goon were just too much his heart broke in on August fourth nineteen forty Zev Vladimir Kinski suffered a fatal heart attack while I had a beta camping. New york. And so, in the hour of the Jewish people's greatest need the goon was left rudderless, and it was only in that fateful, winter of nineteen forty two that they began to slowly recover from the blows. The war had reached a turning point with the halt of the Nazi advance at selling grad, and as we spoken about the information at the extermination of European jury was beginning to seep into the shoes and before the stones of Jerusalem, and even had a chance to absorb yet year. Stern's blood, the goon leadership had already begun to reconsider its position on the situation. They begin with reorganization of the ranks officer training courses new recruits, the underground newspaper. Hey route freedom began once again to appear on a regular basis. And as the war shifted in favor of the allies, as the year turned toward nineteen forty-three. And Furthermore, as the evidence of mass murder began to mount more and more members of the goon favored ending the truce, which David Al had declared at the outbreak of the war, and on June, seventeenth, nineteen forty-three, K, route gave the following warning evidence that a change in relations with the British. Authorities had taken place within the year. Gouden command. When war broke out the Jewish people declared their loyalty to the British government to help it vanquish the enemy of the entire world and of the Jewish people. Great Britain has betrayed this friendship. The Jewish people have not been acknowledged as a fighting nation. A Hebrew army has not been established in the one area where you're going had maintained its opposition to the British illegal immigration had only inflamed their anger even more toward the occupier because the spite their growing awareness of the final solution. The British government had kept the gates of the mandate firmly shot. Now that you're gonna have involved in Aaliyah bet as it was known since its inception. But now as the Jews were not only prohibited from entering into land of Israel, but we're being turned in camps in Cyprus or Africa. And some were even being sent back to the slaughter in Europe. The time for more direct action seemed to have arrived. The in general headquarters came to the conclusion that the truce it had proclaimed when the war broke out had to be ended, and that it was essential to take action against the British without waiting until the war was over all they lacked was a leader. Not I'm big was born Bressler tough city of the Russian empire right on the bullish border in nineteen thirteen a passionate Zionist from an early age, but not come started out as did most of his peers in the socialist Zionist movement, specifically in high Schommer to ear, but it was when he joined Zev Jabotinsky is bate tar youth movement at age sixteen that he truly found his home after graduating from polish government school, begging went on to study law at the university of Warsaw. This is where he learned his or Tori skills, something that would become one of his hallmarks as a political leader. It was also where he first organized a self defense group of Jewish students to counter harassment by anti Semites and this use of violence to fight those. He saw the enemies of the Jews was another characteristic, that would define his leadership for years to come. Bing, graduated law school in nineteen thirty five believe never practiced law. Because by this time he was a close disciple of Zev Jabotinsky, and he was a rapidly rising star within beta eighth twenty two he would already be steering the stage with his mentor at the beta world congress and Krakow and he went on to become head of beta Poland, the movements largest branch. But the time Menachem big was in charge. Beta polling was far more than just a youth movement. It's nearly one hundred thousand members were engaged in weapons training to defend polish jury preparation and transport of illegal immigrants to Israel agricultural training. And communications in other words, they were an army of conquest in the making an army, which lacked, only the command to strike, and in nineteen thirty eight as the debate around restraint ranged in the land of Israel. In the Irgun emerged, as the unofficial underground other revisionist movement. Zev jabotinsky. He continued to hold out for conscious approach. Roche bay tire felt the time was not yet ripe for war and many people believe that was because he feared that all their preparations would be washed away, if they move, too soon Menachem Begin. However, did not agree. In fact, he had become the unofficial spokesman for the activists opposition within beta. And when the to share the stage for the last time at the world beta conference in Warsaw, nineteen thirty eight bacon. Saw the movement at a crossroads to either descend into political irrelevance or rise to war, now, there was no way the to know that this would be the last such conference. And when Jabotinsky finished his opening speech and his final words. Hung in the air over the heads of the delegates. If you will not liquidate the exile. The exile will liquidate you the room fell silent. But it was when Menachem bagan rose and suddenly appeared on the stage and gave an answer to this warning that the pack room began to home with suppress energy as he reached his crescendo. We do not wish to become subjects of ridicule and shame let Jewish youth collect iron that it create the military potentialities, and then we'll shall ensure for the Jewish nation a better tomorrow. The activists had taken the Harley conference voices began to whisper bagels, not only the hope of our movement. Bagan is the hope of our nation, an early on Friday morning in the last hours of the gathering Jabotinsky through the stage for one last time, he knew that the movement was out of his control and was rushing toward war too soon in his mind. But none of them could know that they were all too late. Leukemia gone heart Donahue. He said, God has created us for pain and suffering for the hangman's rope and for prisons, these will accompany your lives in the struggle for the freedom of our land in nation. But the day will come when the nation will choose you lead in the crown will truly yours, and if today, the youth, and it's Israel have taken up arms, then remember, this is the work of beta therefore carry with dignity and pride. Your name bay Tari. Now we heard last episode what fate lay in store for beta Poland and all the police jury Roche bay. Tar had never said, more true word in nineteen forty having fled worse off or Vilna together with much of the beta our leadership Menachem Begin was arrested by Stalin's N, qui n que v d that's the forerunner of the KGB and a little bit harder to say and sent to a Siberian labor camp with the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union nineteen forty one, the political map of Europe was overturned once again, and Stalin ordered all polish citizens, set free Menachem Begin among them, unbroken in even unbend by more than a year of torture, and suffering. He remained steadfast and focus on his goal, the liberation of the land of Israel for the Jewish people. He just had to figure out how to get there. So soon after his release begging join. The polish free army. I mean, the world was at war after all, and in nineteen forty three is unit was sent to the British controlled Palestine for training and he'd come home. He come home at a time, which seemed ordained, by the highest wisdom, as I said, it was just that summer when the Irgun military command had decided to take action against the British, and now through God's grace, their leader had arrived, not quite he was still wearing a polish uniform act act and his radical, companions many of whom now made up the leadership of the lucky having split from the goon when that truce with the British was declared implored him to desert and join underground right away. But ever this stickler for law and propriety begin waited until he was officially discharged disappear from daily life. And when he did the goon general headquarters came to the conclusion that the truce it had proclaimed when the war broke out was over, and it was now essential to take action, the military leadership, that you're doing immediately beg begging to take charge. And when he protested that he knew nothing about warfare. They told him they didn't lack for fighters. Would they needed was quote, a leader of authority to blaze, our political and ideological path in, so in December nineteen forty-three Menachem begging assume command of the organ at the first meeting of the general headquarters, he passed to critical resolutions number one that an armed struggle against the British mandatory government had to be launched without delay? The resolution actually stipulated to restricting conditions number one, the rejection of individual terrorism. Ethics in number to oppose Bowman of attacks on military targets until the war ended. And so. So through this, they really maintained their distinction from the path of the lefty. The second resolution was at the organ had to detach itself from the revisionist party and determine its own path. And this they honored a certain aspect of years vision in the end. On February first nineteen forty four the fouling posters appeared on the walls of the buildings all over the land of Israel to the Jewish people. Dwelling in Zion? We are in the last stage of the World War. We face a historic decision on our future destiny each and every nation is now conducting its national reckoning, what are its triumphs in? What were it's losses. What road take in order to achieve its goal into Phillips mission who hearts friends in who its enemies who is the true ally, and who the traitor, and who is proceeding toward the decisive battle sons of Israel Hebrew youth. The armistice proclaimed at the beginning of the war has been breached by the British the rulers of the country of chosen to disregard loyalty, concessions and sacrifice. They continue to implement their aim the ratification of sovereign Zionism. We must draw the necessary conclusions without wavering. There can no longer be a truce between the Hebrew nation and youth, and the British administration of air rail, which is betraying our brothers to Hitler. Our nation will fight this regime fight to the end. Revolt had begun. So at this point of our story, we have three separate underground armies forming I wanna make sure that clear in our minds, the first to come together was the Haganah formed initially in response to the violence of the air, Brian to the twenties, their name really tells us all we need to know about their egos hugging means defense, and I refer you back to episode thirty three for more of the story about how the goon I broke away from now gonna over the very questions of violence in restraint, and for minor that the Haagen-Dazs striking arm, the Palme was quite capable of applying violence, when they felt the need, or that it was morally justified. But what's critical to recall is that the hugging now was formed originally under the ages of the Drut that all embracing workers federation, which was more of a state in the making than just a union, and because of this, it was made up almost entirely of labor Zionists and. In the executive of the Jewish Agency, took over responsibility for the Haganah it became the unofficial army of the unofficial Jewish government in the mandate, David banker Bangkokians personal militia the story that you're goon, I've just filled in it only remains to end the size that their association with Javid, tin skin, the revisionists gave him a political base, but it put them beyond the pale of the overwhelmingly left-leaning Zionist, mainstream, in the Chouf, this was as opposed to their popularity amongst eastern European jury. But that voting block never made it to the land of Israel. And finally, we've introduced the low homemade route Israel the Israel freedom fighters of the lefty to Haagen on the mainstream leadership get year. Stern his followers, Ron one hand terrorists, and as such more of a threat design project than the British or even the Arabs. But on the other hand, they saw a potential. Left-wing ally in them. But no matter how you slice the politics. They certainly didn't weep when yet year was murdered the relationship between the year. Gounon the lefty was complex as we mentioned, and the tension between them is going to remain in our story for some time to come despite begins personal relationship with much of its leadership. But for now, the left, certainly, welcome. The your goons call to revolt. They saw it as a final waking up to the truth that they'd been pursuing for years, though. They did differ with the goons strategic vision, Menachem Begin had studied, the Irish war of independence and the Indian independence movement. And from this -nology, devise a strategy, he believed would force the British out of the land. He proposed a relentless wave of gorilla attacks aimed at humiliating, the British damaging their prestige, but not actually destroying their imperial power. He hope. These attacks would force the British to then resort to repressive measures, which in turn would alienate, the Jews of the shoes while at the same time, attracting the attention of the international media, this should sound familiar and the mandate with them become in his words, a glass house with the whole world looking in the Jews within standing United against British repression, while outside global sympathy. We create political pressure on the empire and ultimately, he believes that the British would be forced to choose between increasing force or withdrawing, and he was certain in the end. They would cave now the first target that the urge goon chose when it opened up the guns and the revolt was the immigration offices of the mandatory authorities more than anything else. These offices symbolize the injustice of the British occupation, and the forces that barred the gates of the mandate has the Jews of Europe burned next came income tax offices, a target, always shirt, Arale. Public support. And then a series of strikes on police stations throughout Israel, the intensity of the tax rose as the year nineteen forty four progress in casualties mounted on both sides, not to be outdone. The lefty joined the momentum of the revolt with a series of shooting attacks, an individual policemen. But the real turning point of the underground struggle came into van of nineteen forty four with the assassination of Walther Edward Guinness first baron Lord Moyne in nineteen forty four. Lord Moyne was the British resident minister of state in Cairo, which under the colonial system at that time meant he was responsible for Persia the Middle East, including, of course, mandatory Palestine in large chunks of North Africa. And Moines was seen by the Jews to be an anti-zionist. I'm not going to get into the rhetoric of whether that's true or not it doesn't really matter that how he was seen by them. And as the minister of state, who was direct. Responsible for the enforcement of the white paper. Not only was he the one holding the door shut as the six million died. He was personally one responsible for the destruction of the SS Struma that we discussed back in last episode and it would be the lefty who decided his fate. Eliahu Hakim in Elliott bay Serie to lucky members lacking, an extensive operational experience, but fluent in Arabic, and therefore able to blend into local population were dispatched to Cairo. Their mission was quite clear and after many trial runs the two Eliahu's lay in wait for their target outside his home on November six nine thousand nine hundred forty four in the early afternoon. The residents car pulled up to his house and the driver jumped out to open the door beat Serie shot. I hitting the driver well, hawking pull the door open and fired three shots at Lord Moynihan self, he died hours later on the operation table as doctors struggled to save him their mission complete the two assassins, made their getaway on rented bicycles. But they didn't get far within minutes in after a brief firefight. They were there in the hands of the police and on January tenth nineteen forty five the two Eliahu's were charged with murder in the gypsum court in a week later. There trial was held now they refuse to recognize the court or to participate in the proceedings against them. It was a posh. After that they learned from other revolutionaries in one that would be repeated by many lengthy and even your goon fighters in the year ahead. However, when the testimony against him was completed Eliahu Hakim rose to seat and said the following, we accuse Lord Moyne and the government's he represents with murdering hundreds and thousands of our brethren. We cues them of seizing our country and looting our possessions, we were forced to do Justice in fight. The sentence was death in when it was passed the two young men rose to their feet, and saying, a for the hope the national anthem of the Jewish people and on March twenty third nineteen. Forty-five Eliahu Hakim in Eliahu Bates, sorry were marched barefoot to the gallows, blinded at the base of the scaffold, and hang by the neck until dead British Prime minister with singer, Joel, who himself had sent Moines to Cairo because of their long personal and political friendship, and who had once described himself as, as IRAs had the following to say in the house of Commons, if our dreams resign ISM are to end in the smoke of the assassins, pistols. And our labours were it's future to produce only new set of gangsters worthy of Nazi Germany many like myself will have to reconsider the position, we have maintained so consistently in so long in the past if there. Is to be any hope of a peaceful and successful, future Zionism these wicked activities must cease and those responsible for them. Must be destroyed root and branch. The assassination of Lord Moyne and the reaction amongst the British establishment created shockwaves in the Palestine mandate, and throughout the world even before the identity of this asan's became known the Jewish Agency executive gathered in issued an even fiercer condemnation than that of Churchill to these shoes together with all the civilized world, the Jewish community has been shocked to hear of the despicable crime of murder of the British minister in the Middle East, a crime rendered more despicable by the fact that the British people have been engaged for the past six years with great heroism and supreme effort together with their allies in a life and death struggle with the Nazi fo-. They went on to say, terror in this country can stifle the prospects of our political struggle and destroy our inner peace these shoe is exerted cast out of its midst all. Members of this destructive and ruinous gang not to succumb to their threats and to extend the necessary aid to the thirties to prevent acts of terror into a radical is organization since this is a matter of life and death for us. And as everyone knows in matters of life and death, there can be no compromise in so the hunting season begin. Hunting season or say zone in French, as it was known was the codename for the Haagen-Dazs full scale persecution of the Irgun it was presented as an effort to root out terrorism from the political culture of the issue. But it's hard to avoid the conclusion, it was also an effort to put an end to the activities of a hated rival one that was a long time in coming, we've discussed over the course of many episodes, the rising competition, the political tension and even the sporadic violence, that occur between the labor Zionist and the revisionists go back to episode thirty two for a bit of a refresher. And the revolt of nineteen forty four only added new fueled, this fire the heads of the Jewish Agency, who constituted the official leadership of the issue, both in their own is in those of the mandate had already split with your gun. Even in Jabba tens revisionists over the question of restraint vis-a-vis the air ABS during the revolt in despite their complicity and undermining the mandatory government policy through illegal immigration. They were still categorically opposed to attacking British targets, especially as the empire was fighting the Nazis snow longer simply question of rivalry now, as they saw at the Irgun was directly challenging the policy of Jewish leadership in time of war in a way in which they saw as a threat to the entire Zionist project. And so. Toward the beginning of the revolt its timber of nineteen forty four Menachem Begin held two meetings. With moesha's snap headed the Haganah general headquarters in Eliahu Gholam, one of the commanders in order to come to new understanding the message he received was at the national institutions have been democratically elected, and therefore that you're goon and the lefty, must accept their thority. Now, this is a theme, which continues in our political discourse unto this very day. Whoever wants to claim legitimacy to their power loves wrap themselves in the sacred cloak of democracy. No matter what antidemocratic means they choose to employ and ends. They pursue you keep your eye carefully on who espouses democratic culture pursues it over the next thirty years of our story. So moesha's sneha in one of the meetings had the following to say on the question of national thority. It is, we control the public, we do not intend to renounce that control because it is we who have received a mandate from the Jewish people. If you continue your activities, a clash will result, the go, and was even more direct. We demand that you cease immediately. We do not want a civil war, but we will be ready for that as well. It is clear that we're not speaking about your physical liquidating, but the developments could lead to that as well. They could lead to your destruction, and then it will not matter who started, but that was all in September. Once Lord Moyne was assassinated two months later. The labor Zionist leadership of these shoes had decided that the time for talking was done. Now it's noteworthy that though it was the lefty who killed the British resident the hunting season which erupted in its wake was directed solely against the goon now this is. This is partially because of their size despite the ideological clarity over the anti imperial struggle that drove the legs readiness for violence numerically. They were insignificant as a competitor for national leadership. Unlike the goon, and Furthermore, apparently, Goldman sna- had a more direct, and perhaps more productive conversation with the lefty, Bill, he agreed to suspend all activities against the British for the time being, but made it very clear that they would respond to any violence with violence of their own. In preparation for the hunt, the hug, inau hired more than three hundred people to begin to follow your goon members. And at the same time the began to set up detention centers in large towns and on key would seem the opening stroke of the season was the kidnapping of Irgun commanders on December eleventh alone, Eliahu Ravi. Their goons chief storekeeper with kidnapping interrogated next game. Daniel Yanovsky who was kept blindfolded throughout the months of his captivity. He was soon followed by more to high Kaufman. Ron non who snatched and pet Dekla and whose interrogation was accompanied by torture, and there are no exact numbers for exactly how many Irgun members were taken off the streets by their fellow Jews, but the history book of the hugging gives the following details. According to one source it says twenty people were kidnapped by the hugging offer interrogation in ninety one were interrogated without being arrested. Some seven hundred names of individuals and institutions were given to the police in some three hundred people were arrested on the basis of those lists a special committee was actually appointed to discuss the problem of high school, students were active in the goon, and it was decided to expel thirty of them from various schools, and before long the entire Haagen command was preoccupied with the season. They shadowed suspects kidnapped fighters on the basis of a list, that they had received from the Haagen-Dazs intelligence service, the shy in all the while the palm off their striking. Arm stood guard over the Jewish Agency leaders for fear that the good might react with counter kidnappings, the Jewish Agency, even set of department for special assignments in order to maintain close contact with the. Close the one thousand Jews were handed over to the British in a matter of months, most were taken to the Troon detention camp. And several hundred of the so-called hard core were deported from there to further detention camps in Africa, a letter from the High Commissioner in Jerusalem to the colonial secretary in London reveals that the Jewish Agency was interested in more than just routing out terror from their midst, it's clear that they exploited the season in order to turn in active members other revisionist party who were not even members of your gun and thereby rid themselves of hated political rivals lever, the letter states, the following, number one in all the Jewish Agency has supplied Safar details of eight hundred and thirty suspects of whom three hundred and thirty seven had been located in detained of these two hundred and forty-one being held under the emergency regulations. Will be about those in the next episode. The remainders have been released under surveillance, or unconditionally. Several useful arrests have been made in the goon center in Tel Aviv listened to number two. Unfortunately, the Jewish agency's list of so-called Harris continues to include numerous people who have no Eric connections, but politically speaking are undesirable to the Jewish Agency, these ads the difficulties the police have in separating the sheep from the goats. Only two members of the Jewish Agency executive the head of the means rocky party, rabbi, Yehuda, Fishman Maimon, and you talk green Bong protested this brutal policy. But the kidnappings were fiercely condemned throughout the rest of the issue. The chief rabbinate even published a strong worded notice that declared this cruel deed, is utterly prohibited by the Torah, and his alien, and abominable to the Jewish people and to every Jew desecrates, the name of Israel, and our settlement in ari-, Israel, cease, these cruel in despicable acts of always a protests was heard from the other end of the cultural spectrum as well when the distinguished floss for Hugo Bergmann, who is a member of breach alone. And thus a sworn opponent of everything for which the Oregon stood nevertheless wrote the following these kidnappings are the tomb of democratic public life, a death sentence against all we hold. Gear in the issue. Bergman knew well, that the Jewish Agency executive and the other power structures created by the world, Zionist organization could only be characterized at best as quasi, democratic and. I was without considering their dominance by labor Zionists since the thirties one that will continue until the nineteen seventies. But what really disturbed the philosopher was the thought of the damage being done to the tender democratic culture that he was so eager to see foster issue and one might assume that the goon which had come into being after all through with refusal to restrain Jewish arms against air violence would be the first fight back against such aggression from their brothers. In fact, it may have been part of the overall plan of the hunting season two. I decapitate the leadership that you're going, and then provoked its remnants into a futile civil war thus allowing the labor, Zionist de-legitimize and destroy their rivals in one fell swoop. But the issue leadership, did not know Menachem Begin or perhaps they were unable to separate the reality of the man in his. Leadership from the layer of demonization, with which they painted. He and his followers now. It was no simple task for begin to persuade the remnants of the goon command to exercise restraint in the face of these kidnappings torture and arrest, which had decimated the ranks, and he gave to fundamental reasons why they should in, in many ways, they're really the same first big argued that to react would plunge the entire shoe into civil war, which itself would just spell, the end of their struggle against the British and air rail and given easy victory to the imperial occupiers. Don't forget divide. And conquer is the oldest tool of empire second despite his pain, and anger begin wanted to maintain whatever relations e could with the Haganah he knew from his own intelligence that has the season progress. Descent was growing amongst the hugging ranks, who are being asked to fight their brothers, rather than their enemies. Andy knew that should the Haganah decide to join the struggle against Moore and rule. They would be a tremendous asset as we'll see in the coming episode. His foresight was quite accurate. And if the testimony to the power of Menachem Begin's leadership, as well as the core value have out these ale of the love of Israel, that drove many of the members of the underground, he was able to hold back the members of a militia that had been born and trained in the spirit of breaking the restraint in the following is from a nineteen forty four pamphlet published by the year, goon, proclaiming its policy of non retaliation in the face of the hunting season. It's titled, there will be no fraternal war. The air is filled with gunpowder orders and leaders, do not cease to speak of the internal strife. One of them has said that his already begun the second even more loud mouth has feigned his lips with the hysterical cry of blood for blood. And I for an eye a third has labored in labor until he finally, devised a plan to save the Jewish people. And this is it to expel from their homes to expel from schools to starve in handover are fighting use to the British police, it is Dan us, it declared an all means are acceptable in order to liquidate them that's from Ben Gurion speech to the history Duke conference. And what will they do? Ask the pamphlet. These persecuted people against whom the terrible, edicts are directed. How will they defend themselves? These are grave questions and we feel it our duty on our own behalf. And on behalf of the goons violin me in Palestine to provide an answer. And this is. Our answer. You may stay home loyal Jews. There will be no fraternal strife in this country. And the power of the determination to hold the people together even in the face of such provocation is something which will play a role in big leadership with critical power in the years ahead. And we should all merit to see such leadership in our days. So just want to thank people for finish up here. I, I wanna make a dedication to resear- botch mall whose love and kindness will always live, I want to invite you if you'd like to semi a message if you want to dedicate, a show to someone you love their memory, and also wanna thank all the people that give their hard earned money to help make the show possible. He would free and widely available. Want to invite you to join them? Go right now to rob Mike dot com in the upper right hand corner. You'll see a button that says he a patriot you can click on through a little bit of for podcasts board, and I wanna thank the land of Israel or the land of Israel dot com, creating a platform that allows me to reach so many amazing people. I wanna thank our institute, a R E S dot org. Got I l for building a school that allows me to teach such amazing Jews and I wanna thank you for listening. I'm not Mike ware and this is the Jewish story. Thank you for downloading this podcast from the institute of Jewish studies. The more regional Torah consent. Visit L mud par desk dot ORG.

Israel Irgun Europe Jewish Agency Menachem Begin Palestine Jerusalem Middle East commander Tel Aviv Germany Lord Moyne David Rasi Rozelle Zev Jabotinsky British government Menachem Begin institute of Jewish studies Menachem executive
My People, Our History

The Tel Aviv Review

42:07 min | 4 months ago

My People, Our History

"This is is. One. The Tel Aviv review. Hello and welcome to the Tel Aviv review brought to you by Van, Leer, Jerusalem, Institute, I get on happened. Shenlin every week. We bring you conversations with authors about the books and research and other things that we like. If you like us, please consider becoming a patriot saporta going to homepage. That's toby. One FM FAM- slash Tel Aviv review, scroll down to the bottom and click the big red button says Patriots Click and support us. We're counting on you. This episode is part of a series generously sponsored by the Israeli Office of the Konrad Adenauer Foundation which includes a focus on global affairs and the international world. Order and we're pleased to welcome back to the show. Professor Rasheed holiday, speaking to us from New York City. You may have noticed that we have gone remote in these days of Corona. We want to tell you where guests are from rushing holidays. The Edwards Sade professor of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University. He has a BA from Yale. From Oxford, he is co editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies and he was the president of the Middle East Studies. Association, he was also an advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Madrid in Washington Arab Israeli peace negotiations from Tobin Ninety one until June nineteen ninety-three, and for our purposes most importantly, he's the author of seven books prior to the latest one which we will be discussing today. It's called the Hundred Years War. On Palestine. History of settler, colonialism and resistance now seventeen to twenty, seventeen published by metropolitan. Books in two. Thousand Twenty Rasheed Holiday. Welcome back to the Tel Aviv review. Thanks for having me back. So I. Want to open up by talking about the form or format of this book. You are writing this book as a historian, but not only. You've woven in a memoir. Making this rather personal, it's not just somebody's history or even. The People's history is also your personal history. Why did you decide to develop the book in this way? Were you trying to in some way? Challenge the historian of the conflict as well as historical ideas. Well I. I was I was under the influence of of my son in particular. Who said to me that? He thought I had written enough. Academic. Dry monographs and that it was time to write something a little more personal. And to bring in some of my own experiences, some of the stuff that I would use a sources, but in a different way including family material and so I. Reluctantly and with difficulty, acceded to this suggestion which he helped helped me to devise instructor for the book. and. I was trying to challenge a certain kind of historiographer. at at the same time and I don't know if that that succeeds because I'm making an argument that many historians don't find terribly controversial, but that many other people probably will, and at the same time I'm trying to make this a a narrative, this approachable and relatable for people who are not may be academics or specialists or historians. What is the thing you think? Historians do not find controversial, but the general reader might. Well, I mean in the in the very title is this. Is this This argument at this is a this is a struggle involves colonialism. This would not have been something that would have been controversial to anybody in the issue of in the Nineteen Twenty S or nineteen thirties. They understood that this was the same time that they saw it. As a national project that it was a colonial project, the word colonial was was commonly used as a self-described description but it's something that in the wake of the establishment of Israel in Post Network era is diminished actually. Actually in the Post World War Two era is banished from people's consciousness, and is now seen as almost an insult or a or a or a slur, to suggest that this is not just a national renewal project, or however Zionism wants to self described, but rather was an is a settler colonial project. Isn't it more a question of semantics than actual historiographer? Because you know, it's the evolution of the sociopolitical context of colonialism. After, decolonisation et CETERA. It's not so much the the facts themselves, but you interpret them. Well I think that the the point that I try and make here is that this is a common process for successful set or colonial. A project, which is to say that they normalize, they become national of the United States is set Nicole. New Project I'm sitting here. Looking on an island called Manhattan looking out my window and an island that was called Manhattan that's not an anglo-saxon. The that's that's a native American name. This is or colonial project. It's a successful. There is an American national entity that was created by. There's an Israeli national entity that was created by the Zionist project. There's nothing in that I eat. There's nothing contradictory between the idea that several co project should become a successful national project. How many of those are there these days? I'm trying to think after decolonisation. How many countries can you look around the world and say this country is the product of colonialism and is still governed or or inhabited primarily by the colonists, mainly white Anglo Saxon settler colonies, a New Zealand Australia United States and Canada You could argue that one of the rare cases where a settler colonial project was fundamentally revised would be South Africa maybe some east African countries. which were original, originally meant to be whites or colony colonies have developed in a different fashion, but those are the only ones I argue in the book designs. is unique and the struggle between Zionist project and the. Palestinians is unique in many other different ways. I mean for one thing. You don't have a Bible in South Africa or North America well. Let's go back many other. Reasons for the differences on you don't have a people. That's a direct extension of the Metropole. The way you do in France or in North America. British subjects come to North America French. North Africa and they see those colonies as extensions of the mother country. the the settlers who come to Palestine are trying to set up something completely separate from any. They have no other country as it were so it's unique in many many respects. Hope talk about some of the ways in which the unique and I want to go back to what you said in the beginning, which is that in the early years of Zionist project that would not have been a controversial thing to say, and I notice that in the introduction you sight Zev Jabotinsky from Nineteen twenty-three, referring to the Palestinian Arabs as trying to resist colonization in. In his words, and so the question is. Do you think that by that? He meant it in the way we mean today, which is in a negative pejorative sense like what a terrible thing this is colonialism, and of course they're trying to resist it or he have said yes. We're colonial project because we are desperate for a state, and that's the way states are built. Either that or territorial conquest, and we can't do territorial conquest. So this is what we're going to do. No he would have said just what you said he did. Say it. Isn't it great and become a spokesperson for dividends key? The other thing about Jabotinsky and his brutal honesty was an I. Mean you? You can find multiple multiple statements to this effect. Is it. Is it first of all as as you suggested he said. We have no alternative. We have to do this. We need an iron wall. provided by somebody else to enable us to establish this this colonial endeavor, but that. Of course this is our country belongs to us and we. We have no alternative. The other point to make about Jefferson skiing people in the twenties and thirties is this was the high age of European colonialism European colonialism was still extending in the post. World War One era after reside the the colonial powers extended their their their grip over the world. Questionable right. So much settler colonialism colonialism, buying large is an earlier phenomenon, is it? That's correct. That is correct inside China zone is the last gasp up white European settlers colonialist and Tony Judge, said it sort of missed the bus. It comes later. than all the ones that were much more successful in much earlier I mean they start here in the seventeenth century. North there. they started Australia in the eighteenth century in Palestine late nineteenth, so it is, it is in that respect in anomaly, but as late as the twenties and thirties, colonialism was still not in bad older. It was only. Really after World War Two in the era of decolonization that the world changed and Zionism changed its tune partly because they're doing this conflict with the British starting with the nineteen thirty nine White Paper until that point Zionism was, the cuddled Stepchild at British Columbia's However, much they they cobbled and complained about the British, not doing enough without British support. Support designers could not have established itself in Palestine in the twenties and thirties right up to nineteen thirty nine, and at that point, the conflict with the British lead Zionist to see themselves as fighting colonialism, and so it worked perfectly for them in in the era of decolonization, they could say we are fighting British colonials. It was a wonderful transformation for now. The interesting thing about the way you tell the historical narrative in your book divided into chapters each. Is called The a declaration of war from different. Yeah, and you can look at at least two declarations and wars and victories that were phenomenal from an Israeli point-of-view. That's the establishment of Israel in nineteen, forty, eight with the expulsion of a great chunk of the. Palestinian indigenous indigenous population. And, nine, hundred, sixty seven, that was also the Six Day War of course a remarkable victory why one these remarkable victories decisive enough to say okay to deliver a death blow? To the Palestinians. Actually a really good question, and I think that most people for a long time after nineteen forty eight would've assumed that the that victory did exactly what you said that it had finished Palestine. Meyer says sixty nine. There is no Palestine there never was she is. Sharing a common assumption we've won. They're gone. It's over among many Israelis. They were dealing with the Arab countries They thought that was the only conflict they had to really. Resolve in their favor that the one with the Palestinians had been settled in forty eight at they were wrong. Turns out because the housing. National Movement revives in the nineteen late fifties and sixties I touch on that in the book and many historians have talked about it starting with Yoshua porath way back when and and many others since. Israeli Palestinian another sixty seven actually ironically gives a boost the Palestinian nationalist even as it is enormous quote, unquote victory for Israel It also is victory for Palestinian nationalism. again. This is irony, but there we are. A quota because it was so succinct, you said a central paradox of nineteen, sixty seven by defeating the Arabs Israel resurrected the Palestinians. That's a very powerful statement. How did that actually happen? Well many people in the Arab world assumed the negative outcomes of ninety forty eight would somehow be A. Changed positively a by the Arab governments, so whether the nothing in Egypt, the bathroom in Syria or whoever that this would this this? These problems would be redressed. In the the minds of some people that would mean the destruction of Israel in the minds of some people that would be. A return to the forty-seven frontiers, whatever it might me and the Palestinians were sort of. Not the ones who are seen as having their destiny in their on had this is Palestinian assertion that was going on at the time, the development of the redevelopment of a revived Palestinian. National Movement that Said No. We have to do it ourselves, but most Arabs most people in the Arab world in the Middle East felt the our governments were responsible, and the governance were shown to be weakened incompetent. By the results of the nineteen sixty seven war. Where three, Arab armies were decisively defeated in just a couple of a few days by the Israeli by. He's really military. So, I think to understand the roots of that revival. Now now we now that we're at sixty seven. I WANNA go back to the early part of the twentieth century when you chronicle through parts of your own family, the emergence of a Palestinian national identity, the one that has been so roundly denied by Israeli leaders and their supporters over the years and I I wonder if you could tell us a bit about how how how Palestinian Arabs at the time saw the emergence of that national identity? Why do you say that contradicts Zionist narratives so decisively? Well. I mean this is the topic of written on a couple of in a couple of places. Where here looks right and it? It's based on understanding of nationalism that is not well regarded by nationalists, whether whether Israeli while designers or whether Palestinian or for that matter Arab nationalist or any other national because my understanding of nationalism is that it's very modern phenomenon. My understanding is that even though it. It incorporates pre existing elements of identity religion ORB attachment to place, or whatever language It is an ENU phenomenon. The idea that the policy has to be made up of people who are similar nationally have the same language, and so on so forth. That's a modern concept didn't exist in the seventy sixteenth century the British. Don't bring a a German and put him on the throne because he's. A national. They bring in and it doesn't matter that he's a German and before that they Dutchman. Sixty eight so the national principal, even in the most developed. Later on developed nations is not fully established until much much later than most people assume. And, that's true with Palestine the idea that you are a Palestinian above being more Jerusalem lighter. A member of that family simply didn't exist in seventeen, hundred or eighteen, hundred or even probably into the late nineteenth century And that's true for Zionism as well as minority ideology in the nineteenth century late nineteenth century when it develops. Most Jews don't think that they belong to a nation state that has to be established. In their ancestral homeland of the land of Israel that's a new concept in the late nineteenth century. And not it's not a majority. so I trace in different works I've done a how passing national consciousness develops and the elements out of which the medical overlapping identities out of which develops and it really doesn't take off until the twentieth century at any more than Zionism for that matter I mean you have four million Jews coming to the United States, and tens of thousands coming to Palestine and the people voted with their feet. The ones who believed in Zionism. Sincerely came to Valentine ones. Who didn't. I stayed in Russia or stayed in eastern Europe or came to the United. States and I would argue that over time that changes. And that those beliefs constitute realities, national reality is a real saying but the ideas that people hold as members of the quote, unquote nation or very often miss fabrications, distortions and so on. The interesting thing about looking at it from Settler colonial perspective. Is that it allows us to go beyond the actual existence or non existence of the Nazi. The national consciousness and look at. Politics in terms of you know power political power and the Jews designers you know, however downtrodden and poor and persecuted. They were. Still enjoyed stress. Sudden degree, the support off of. You know international powers that allow them to develop this disparity of power. with the Palestinians is not really the thing that you know. Put the conflict in motion in your in your view. Absolutely this is why I describe what happens in nineteen, seventeen with the Balfour Declaration as a declaration of war on the Palestinians. Hertzel Hawks Zionist project all around Europe. He went to the Ottoman Sultani went to the German Kaiser. Frenchie was unsuccessful. But it was only when vitamin managed to. Win The support of the British during a one that the project really takes off I. Mean You have settlers and you? Have you have settlements colonies in Palestine before the Balfour Declaration, but until you have a great power setting this at the center of its Middle East Policy. And putting troops and money and power of behind it that this becomes the this project takes all. So. Yes, absolutely, and this comes to crunch in the late thirties when the Palestinians finally rise up. And in thirty, six, thirty, nine in the British bring in. Over one hundred thousand soldiers in the Royal Airforce. They crushed Austin without that. That Israel would not have been created. There's just no. There's no question that the support of the greatest power of the age in those two decades after World War, one was essential of the precondition central precondition for the establishment of the state of Israel. This is not an entirely controversial argument. Tom Segev makes the same argument in his book one Palestine complete. Right but I think that what I what goes seems to me another underlying theme of the book. Even if I'm not sure if you intended for it to be, but it seems to me that it stands out which is that the Palestinian Arabs of the time in the attempt to kind of consolidate and assert their national identity faced a struggle at every angle in other words, it was obvious that Zionists would try to deny that there their national identity, but the British as you say, make war on them, and then later on, you also document how the Arab states were not too keen to recognize their national identity specifically king. King Abdullah of Jordan, who extended his generous offer to to put them under his protection after forty eight. They said no, you your your family. Members were intimately involved in that, and and it was like an assertion of Palestinian leadership that we need to forge her own identity. That was not particularly welcome. Why why was that such a struggle? When other nations were coming into being through the first half of the late nineteenth century and first half of the twentieth century, and being recognized as such wide of the Palestinians constantly have to make the case that we are a nation unto ourselves, not just one of the Arab world. Well, it's. It's a combination of factors. One is the consistent support of external powers. What we've already talked about not just the British during World War Two the world changes in a great powers become the great superpowers become the United States and the Soviet Union was I honest. Movement to its credit cultivates its links with both such that when push comes to shove in the post, World War Two. It has the support of both superpowers. Partition doesn't pass without the Americans the Russians. Arming it through the General Assembly forcing a client states we countries to vote for it Israel doesn't get established without both military support, diplomatic support, and so on from both superpower. So there's that continues, but as you as you suggest there's also other problems for the Palestinians one of them being of the lack of support from the Arab countries in in many cases, the active opposition of the countries notably as you mentioned king on the. Abdallah, was always hostile to Palestinian nationalism because his ambitions included expanding his. Don't mean westwards into Palestine North into Syria. And if possible eastwards into Iran, he always felt that he got the short end of the stick. When Winston Churchill distributed the goodies after World War One and he wanted as much as he could get a Palestine. He was the only are who welcomes nineteen thirty seven partition plan a private Auckland. Commission of seven the. Appeal Commission Partition Plan of Nineteen, thirty seven. He was perfectly happy with the nine hundred forty seven partition plan a recount, an incident that my father told me about in nineteen, forty, seven A. At the very moment when the partition plan was was adopted by the General Assembly. And he cut a deal tried to cut a deal with Zionist movement with the Jewish Agency in the person of moisture, Sharon, and go the Meyer with whom he negotiated a great lakes. How they would sort things out in Palestine, so he was fundamentally opposed to Palestinian nationalism because of his own territorial ambitions. The problem with other countries was that sometimes they actually oppose the president. So Palestinians fought the Syrians for example in the seventies Libyan and Iraqi intelligence services killed many many many Palestinian leaders of, but the other problem was their rivalries of nullified any possibility of their of their extending unified support to the Palestinians or doing anything. vis-a-vis Israel so I didn't directly. So it's either they directly fought against the Palestinians or because they were fighting against each other. The Palestinians became the pawn. Exactly right and that's and that's again. Another spurred Palestinian nationals, and that's one reason that in the in the wake of sixty seven, the Palestinian National Movement takes off, takes over the PLO which had been established by Egypt to master and control of rising policy nationals in the Palestinians taken over and as they say, the rest is history. was there anything that the Palestinians could have done to improve diplomatic standing maybe not as much as the the Zionist who really has excelled at it, but do you think that the Palestinians were perhaps a bit too passive times passive way. I I want to sharpen that question I. Wanna I wanNA pile on to that question. It seems like as the Palestinian leadership was emerging, and and again forming itself in the in the fifties and sixties, they generally used military strategies whether it was raids inside Israel, or as you put it I, think later commando groups in the lead up to sixty seven, so maybe if you can put the two halves of our question together and say did the strategy. They meant they chose work. Or Church could they have done more on the diplomatic international seen and done would there with the results have been different or better I know the counterfactual, but we'll just a little schools. Well I mean I. I think that the outcome was over determined as you're going up against the great power, the age for. The better part of a century. It's very unusual that you're gonNA win. No colonized people a won its independence between will one were to accept the Irish in the entire colonized world. Nobody wants except the Irish, so you know you would have had have been exceptionally a gifted as a national movement to defeat colonials in the war period, and as I say only the Irish did so in nineteen, twenty two, as far as it could have done things differently. Of course, they could have done things differently. The reasons why they didn't are laid out in the book, but there were many moments when better choices could have been made when better strategies could have been adopted and should have been adopted. Details. Sales are just a couple of examples sure for example in the in the Middle East in the Inter war period. No, no, no country. Freed itself that was under external rule as were most. With the exception of Saudi Arabia and Yemen, all of none of the free themselves coin role, but the ones that revolted right after World War One the Iraqis and the Egyptians in particular got some form of independence forced the British to give them something. The Palestinians didn't rise until they thirty six big big mistake there they should have active much much earlier, and they might have gotten a change in these include extremely unfavorable circumstances imposed on them by the mandate for Palestine. I can give you other examples. Of they should have rejected the nineteen thirty nine white paper, a Britain was declining force in nineteen thirty nine, but still it would have put them in a different position in most of the Palestinian. Leadership was in favor of except that it was only the most. A sitting in exile in Beirut at the time who who opposed accepting the white paper, so there are many other examples could give what about after the war, though after the establishment of Israel do we had the same question in? Yeah then you come to the question of of Diplomatic the question that you asked at the end of diplomacy versus force it's a brutal reality that had the Palestinians not resorted to force they probably within the force themselves on the attention of the world. The policies of hijackings, the policies of a terrorist attacks you can call them whatever you want. Commando operations terrorist attack, using your language on civilians or on on military targets, which were militarily and strategically complete, completely unsuccessful succeeded in putting the Palestinians back as as it were on the map. Unfortunately, it also helps to picture them his terrorists, but that then was turned. A by the PLO into the springboard for a diplomatic offensive that was actually quite successful in the sixty seventies and eighties The the Palestinians became. A recognized actor on the world stage after decades in which Israel, the United States and others at assume they had been Owen there was no Palestine. There were no Palestinians there was a refugee issue of the the the resolution adopted after the nineteen sixty seven war doesn't mention the Palestine question or Palestine the Palestine's. Just resolution of the refugee problem. which refugees are they do? They have ended entity to. They have political demands not mentioned. It's a refugee problem. It's a humanitarian issue. That's the status of the Palestinians. In nineteen, sixty seven international Soviet Union voted for that resolution. Britain France United States. China voted that resolution so getting themselves to where they are recognized by over one hundred, whatever it is countries that they their leader addresses, the General Assembly nineteen seventy four is extraordinary change from the situation between nineteen, forty, eight and nineteen sixty seven, so that was a diplomatic strategy that I argue in the book was actually quite successful. And regardless of diplomatic strategies, there was you know maybe an unwitting one which was there's ideas de Dare I say a intifadas that actually changed the perception of the Palestinians, among public opinion in the West, but not so much thanks to diplomatic efforts on. Either shape, but because that's the way it was. It was really a watershed or I do the first Intifada was the second? Intifada was a disaster for the Pasta. I described the first intifada, the one that started in nineteen, seventy, eighty, seven, as one of the few Palestinian successes, because as you say, it accurately portrayed the conflict as one not between an Arab goliath in poor, tiny, innocent, little Israel under siege, but Much more correctly as the Palestinians alone in the field, unarmed against this colossus, which is the Israeli occupation so a little boy, throwing stone against the tank is an image which doesn't exactly something's up, but a lot a hell of a lot better. Than the way in which the conflict had been portrayed by Zionist propaganda over over generations, which is tiny, tiny little. Israel all the arbs destroy it by this stage by the time the Intifada has come about. Egypt is at peace with Israel. Jordan has been collaborating with Israel since before Israel's established. A most Arab countries are busy with their problems. Israel's faces no actual existential threat from the region and is beating up on the Palestinians and so. The the media image that emerges from the first intifada in my view is an enormous victory for the Palestinians and whether able to talk. But but you're also right. It's not something that's. It's premeditated or a result of strategy. It's a result of spontaneous uprise. Do you think that the Palestinian leadership capitalized on it in in a way that said well it seems like at the moment of the Antifa it led to the Palestinian leadership, or I should say the P. L. O. leadership at that time. What was the tunas leadership to change their attitude, or at least their public facing demands for Palestinians determination and formalize? Formalize the demand for a Palestinian state in the West Bank in Gaza, as opposed to all the other phases that you document in which I as was establishing an all Palestinian state at Palestinian Arab state, and then after that one democratic state, and this was sort of an evolution. Do you think that the intifada kind of galvanized or or somehow catalyzed that? Change of national self determination goal, and also more importantly in a allow the Palestinian leadership to speak openly about engaging with Israeli government. Yeah. I think that all all of what's implied in the question is essentially correct, which is to say that the Palestinians are tossing leadership is able. The L. Leadership is able to come out as it were a with their true intentions much more. After the Intifada end in one, thousand, nine hundred eighty declaration of independence is proof of what you're saying. However, anybody who white looked closely at the actual evolution of what was going on inside Palestinian politics as distinct from the entirely false vision of it. It's portrayed by Israeli government apologised, which is the bow are bloodthirsty terrorists who wanted to destroy us? They have no objective other than that anybody who looks at reality rather than this. This false construct will see that that's an evolution that ends as you as you say in nineteen eighty eight, but which really begins in the immediate aftermath of the seventy three war with the Palestine National, council taking a series of resolutions, starting in seventy, four, which adapts to accept the idea of a two-state solution, so they were, they were already going in that direction, the intifada that gives them as the platform as it were. To come out much more openly for. A diplomatic of the conflict. In fact, we know that they're begging to get into the diplomatic game much much before. This is early as the as early as the mid Seventies. Right, you document that I. Just think it's interesting that I mean I, want to challenge you a little bit because in the book you know you described to two particular, in addition to other events that were parts of the war on Palestine and I'm referring specifically to four to to UN Security Council resolution to fourteen and the Oslo process, both of which were considered wars on Palestine in your in. In your reading, but which today are considered the cornerstone of of of the legitimization for what many in the at least in the Israeli camp, considered the road to peace, which is a two state solution. So why are those wars on Palestine? If they could have actually advanced the idea of a two-state solution eventually, even if they didn't say so specifically at the time. Well two four two dozen to what you're saying to to does not set out the basis for a two state solution. No does the formula land for peace negotiations. But it lands egos in between Israel and Arab states, and there are the only actors that are envisaged into a and B. Given the escape clause. It's written into it. The territories occupied This is territory without the word that's not exactly territories occupied in the English version of of the resolution, which is the definitive once far as the only power that matters, which is the united. States is concerned. Israel enabled to keep the occupied territories for fifty three years in county, so it is not a basis for a two four two is not a resolution on the basis on which adjust and lasting peace, involving return of territories, occupied and sixty seven could have been made in wasn't meant to be. It was crafted. Enclosed in close coordination between the United States and Israeli diplomats. To give Israel all the leeway to extract whatever it wanted from the Arab states, while not necessarily giving back in fact in in the case of Palestinian territories, not giving back the tar trees there occupying sixty-seven, whether to Jordan or anybody else I mean we have since I. Don't talk about this in the book, but we have scenes from the Israeli side in multiple revelations of how often the Israelis stonewalled Jordan when it tried to starting right after sixty seven and going on for well over a decade ago when it tried to negotiate the return of the of the Jordanian control, the previously Jordanian controlled territories that were occupied sixty. Sixty seven so two four two is not that the Oslo process had that potential or might have had. I wouldn't say the also processes. The Madrid process might have had that potential, but again as I write in the book as I suggest in the book and another book I wrote specifically about Madrid, also there are various hidden time bombs written into the letter of invitation of the letters of the Sheri- is given to the various parties and the ground rules which in effect meant that you could not have a Palestinian state or rather Israel could prevent the establishment of the Palestinian state with the full approval of the United States. Okay, so how do we start to tie this all together? We've exposed the miss we've you know tried to expose the war. You've tried to expose the war. What you consider a war against Palestine. And what do you think the Palestinian National Movement should do now? You point out a few directions in the conclusion. One of them I think is particularly interesting. which is you you argue for the effectiveness of making the parallels between the Palestinian situation and other conflicts or colonial conflicts or other kinds of conflicts in the world. How do you think that we take the information that you've been examining and leverage it to point out the way forward? Well. You know. I'm a historian. I'M NOT A. Politician. I'm nine I'm focal strategists so I get to ask questions that no, no, of course, it's appropriately. It's a perfectly legitimate question, but I I don't think that I have the you know the answer to the political question. If I did you know I would be a politician. Probably fail like most politicians, but I think that I think it would I try and lay out. Here is the arguments that should be made i. think the arguing how many states condense on the head of a pen is futile. We have a one st reality created by Israel carefully crafted by Israel over fifty three years, starting with the first decisions made after the occupation is made. By Labor governments and continuing especially with a special a vengeance and power, but with the government dominated by the good from seventy seven. And that's a reality that could be changed backwards. What Tony Judd One said what any politician has done. Another politician can undo is of course true. You could. rewind extract of a of six hundred seven hundred thousand settlers from the occupied territories. You, could you know take apart the Matrix of control, but I don't think that's likely to happen I. Think we have a one st reality and the question is what kind of state is GonNa be? Is it going to be the kind of discriminatory? Repressive a state dominated by what is probably now minority of the total population of Palestine between the river in the. Is it going to be a different politics? How you get to to where you don't have discrimination in where whether you're born in New York, or Amana? Whatever you, you want to be a citizen of this thing, you can come there and not only this group can go, and not that good can how you get it I don't know I. Really Don't know I had no idea but I think that's I think that the arguments that I lay out. Against the. Status Quo, our arguments at least should be considered by anybody WHO's want is engaged in trying to change that sets fusing that the misconception about all those issues in public opinion in the West is really what prevents things from moving forward, and perhaps with your book, your endeavouring in a way to try and change that I think we'll trying to say. Is there a polemical aspect to your book? No, no, no, no! Let me answer. I sincerely believe. That inspite of the national reality that Zionism is created in spite of the independent separate existence of an Israeli nation state. that. The project was an is. Always was and still is dependent on external support Israel doesn't do what it does. Without external support, it doesn't operate as it operates without the incredible economic exchange with the EU without the incredible, technological, military and especially financial support from the private sector in this country, not just from the US government that it that it enjoys. Changing that external situation for Israel changes that balance. The Palestinians of course as I argue. In the book very very forcefully have to get their act together. It's not just a matter of changing the situation abroad in Europe in the United States it's not just a matter of changing opinion inside Israel or changing the it, you have to change the balance of forces between the Palestinians and Israel, which is entirely or largely in Israel's favor right now. It has been for a very long time and to do that. The Palestinians have to. Reform reestablish regenerate their national movement, which is in a parlous terrible state, right? And have to clarify their strategic objectives, which is which is something that is sorely lacking. Right now. And they also have to go back to some of the strategies that served in in the past, which is appealing to people around the world, and also appealing to Israelis, which they utterly failed to do in the current circumstance, which doesn't mean quote, unquote normalization. What it means is making a case for Palestine to Israelis. The Israelis can understand in Hebrew. The people who are closest to being able to do that or Palestinians inside Israel. Palestinian citizens of the state of Israel they're the ones who understand Zionism better than anybody. They all speak Hebrew. They grew up in their Israelis sunk. Some of them are more Israeli than other Israelis. But that whether was air, leadership, or through an evolution of consciousness of that's going to have to happen among the Palestinians so they can be the braves. The Palestinian citizens of Israel can be the bridge the bridge they they already are. They already are I mean everything we know much of what we know we've learned from either poets from inside Israel or or literary figures politics I. Mean The the the role that they've already played in in in. Expanding Palestinian understanding of Israel and Zionism is enormous. And they'll do much more than in the future whether legally or in terms of their involvement in Isreaeli politics or whatever but but I go back to the core of the question. I sincerely believe that Israel is in some fundamental ways dependent on the liberal democracies in the West. End of Israel is increasingly illiberal. And increasingly a and has increasingly moved towards a kind of discrimination that is fundamentally unacceptable to liberal democracies. Now there are countries in the west of the cease to be liberal democracies. Poland and Austria and Hungary are moving rapidly away from liberal democracy. Trump does not represent a liberal democratic trend in the United States, quite the contrary. Those trends may may rise in the future if they do in Israel is in a great position. It already has wonderful relations with the most autocratic countries on earth, Russia China and increasingly illiberal democracy in. India don't forget I could go on and on I. Mean All of the countries I mentioned Israel has excellent relations with. All of Eastern European countries that are moving to the right but. Ultimately it is dependent on on Western. Europe in the United States in some ways some fundamental ways. If opinion as and when opinion changes here, and it is changing in the United States there is absolutely no question that is changing in the Jewish community among young people among minorities among the base of the Democratic Party even among the ossified. Long standing supporters of Israel who control in lead the Democratic Party and fund the Democrat. Party even among those people. There are changes, even they the polls. as those as as those evolutions, take place in spite of the push back the money in the power that's inserted into trying to turn Palestinian activism, anti-semitism, work or frame. It is by the incredible efforts in York to shut down any discussion of Palestine in spite of that there is there is fundamental change going on, and it hasn't when that happens. Israel is going to have a real problem. The IT doesn't change. The it doesn't solve the problem, but it's GonNa. It's GonNa. Be a very important factor. Well, change is on its way. Somehow we don't know what form it will take, but in the meantime I wanNA. Thank you. That's a professor Rasheed highly who's been speaking to us from New York. Thank you for being on the show again. Thanks for having me energy big thanks to shell them in Georgia Foscarini our producers once again to the Israel Office of the Konrad, Adenauer Foundation for sponsoring the series, no request, many or most of you listen to us on the apple podcasts. APP and we'd like to ask you to please consider writing us a review. We like good ones. Bad ones annoyed ones. You can also support us by going to our website. T L V ONE DOT FM slash Tel Aviv. Review and subscribing are Patriot campaign. Check out our archive. We have over five hundred interviews like us on facebook. Follow Me Gilaad on twitter and join us again next week for another edition of the Tel Aviv review, and until then good bye.

Israel Palestine United States Palestinian National Movement National Movement Middle East Europe West New York City Tel Aviv Palestine Egypt Zev Jabotinsky Jordan Journal of Palestine Studies China Syria Hundred Years War Corona
Coronavirus in the Delta E6: Delta State

In The Dark

29:46 min | 3 months ago

Coronavirus in the Delta E6: Delta State

"She moves the change, no score its first Gabrielle State. We're approaching ten minutes to play in the first Delta. State University in Cleveland Mississippi. Colors Green and white. Fissile Mascot. Statesman. Unofficial Mascot. The fighting Okra. Hitting froze caught complete across the metal tax, Delta. that. I liked this. Players stay together, and I'm proud of because second half. I thought we played really well. More than a hundred pipers Zany Sam. You played defensive. Bar play outside alone. Divas. devante. Lee Coma five fever in his law. Office Salon Center. These, players football isn't just about the game. For a lot of them, it's also a way to help pay for their education to get a scholarship, and so these players need football. And football needs them. We're. Doing well. then. Our whole community is better. But then in March. The pandemic hit! ME. I've been scared to go outside so I've been stuck in the house. Delta state went to online classes. You sound like class won't be one insert to the players scattered. Alabama Course Cargo Illinois. And football spring practice getting ready for the fall season. Basically put on hold. I'm going to saying. Making big plays kind nothing teammates. Coaches. Mason atmosphere. Now that. This is in the dark corona virus. I'm Madeline Baron. Spent the past few months along with the rest of the team reporting on Corona virus in the Mississippi Delta. Over the past several weeks, we've heard from doctors, nurses, pastors, competitions, prisoners, and musicians. In this episode, the last episode of the Special Report. We bring you the story of a football team. Our producer Natalie, ski and reporter Curtis Gilbert Been Following the Delta, state statesmen and their coach. Is it trying to make it through to the end of the semester as a team despite the pandemic that is forced them apart. Episodes six. Delta State. April fifteenth. Twenty six days left in the semester. Aren't I'M GONNA. Go ahead and get started. The Delta State Football Teams Weekly Zoom Meeting where we beating the Ni- is good to see you guys bases I can see miss you guys. A virtual locker room. Pep Talk. We always talk about what's important. Now. Guys like my head coach Tad Cooley. To talking to you about this only going to be about six minutes won't get off their. They're about seventy people on the call. Not everyone could make it. Players faces were bobbing in and out of the tiny frames. A lot of guys are calling into the meeting on their phones. Were driving or walking? One guy was holding a toddler. Mutual. Academic. Future Foul blace. Is Can. You make mutual buddy. John. Alkyl Bet. CanNot Could. Cooley tried to get the team to focus. Two hundred thirteen days out. Two hundred RPM days out from. Thirteen up! Mississippi College. One of Delta states rivals. They play every year for trophy called the Heritage Bell. It's a big wooden trophy with an actual bell on top. They put it in their locker room on a special table last year they lost it and in two hundred and thirteen days. They'd have a chance to win it back. Through very closely we may not have. July to get you all in shape. Okay. We might not get to make up the practices that we missed spring. I'm talking worst case scenario right now. Everybody's now I'm saying. The one I'm trying to tell you all this. Get your tails in condition. And there was something else coach Cooley was stressing about. To keep their place on the team. His players needed to maintain a two point. Oh, grade point average that works out to a seat. Coach coolies players struggling to do that even before the pandemic. Now the players scattered all over the place, trying to keep up with their classes was even harder. I'm telling you all right now. You guys gotta be eligible. You guys tried to graduate on. Time is critical right now that you stay on top of his. Anybody else got anything. No serve. God. y'All work when I miss. electrocuted. Through this together now, go get to play ball. It's going to be black. To both. Coast man. Aspirin crazy initated. Many parts you know you, you could tell somebody speaking, though if somebody. Playful when he's happy. And you can tell you. Man He can be a real mellow guy three seconds later. It can be going through the roof. Fan! Always thanks. Very passing game, so he take you serious. You know some people might think he's too hard on. He really. You know he was the best. Man He. He loved to death, but he does even more. He held before afford after every practice. He loves his. He's GonNa work. On People ask Long Time only five coach interiors also hurt 'em. Producer. Natalie has been talking to coach Cooley. Hundred look at it. You, know I think that's our job as coaches. That's that's we have the responsibility move. That's what we signed up four to affect young men lives. Coach Cooley is used to having tight control over his team. He gets up in their business all the time, so it's been hard for him to have his team spread out. We've got planners from across the country and from every walk of. Socioeconomic life there is you know We got players that have money. We've got players that don't have anything. you know. We got players that are are in a state where they've got curfew at six. o'clock, we got players that are in a state that don't have curfew at all. You know you you. Don't you worry about everything? He was worried. That could get sick that they might let their grades slip or their conditioning. He's worried. Some of them might not come back to school at all. Making the right decisions they're doing this. They think that they you wearing is the day. Did you get out of this? Like you feel like it's your job to worry about them. Harp sent. I mean at the end of the day you know. Football's got an an expiration date on it and football's a great game teaches you a lot about life. Obviously. I love that I wouldn't do it, but. This is about graduating. Building me and and getting out of this and the thing that they need to get out of this is their education. So this is to have. To. Lose. Maybe hedgerows. My name is the a V. O. N. T. R. E.. Currently, go to Delta State University. Up Play Middle Linebacker. It's. Too. Take Pain. Thirteen twelve teen in. And then the girlish. Thing apparent but. This is the kitchen. This is my sister Amalia Brown. Say Hey. She had cooking on. What are you cooking today? teeny everything! This I made it. Your. Mother or Tonight. Listen I survived Henderson. Your daughter's cooking. Teaching Oh. That's good. That's good. Dementia was raised by his mom with a lot of help. From his uncle. He grew up in a really small town in Texas, the town of coolidge population, eight, hundred and forty six mobile hold. On a toll will beetle. around. Last Joy. Lasted peers. Making the best out of what you have. A TYPO, daily Has the words I do this for. My Momma tattooed on his chest. When things are getting hard. He thinks about his mom working three jobs just. As Mother's hundred thirty miles. She worked with US but him. She worked at a nursing home. Thirty minutes away. Unless, you work at another home, he. Could just see. She tied. On his phone. Devendra keeps picture of the mobile home where he grew up. This is my motivation. Saying that. Deputies! Sanjay. Thank because we're not used to when I buy my momma to mention that she deserves. Won't saying this is what on my show this? We started Fox. Devante, is in banking on making it to the NFL devante wants is a career as an entrepreneur to start a business. And College for Devante is a big part of that. With a college degree, he's way more likely to have a good job and be able to support his family Tobias Mama House. There's nothing as uncle told him. That's really stuck with them. Out Tim. Football one is going to teach edge case, not decollete football from, but they can't take your mind away. Your. Grades the semester looking okay. I reporter Curtis called Entree check in. Little good though. So I'm. Not The best, but I get through I. Actually Devante was having some trouble in school. There's one class in particular biology. Of Like. I! kind of stuffy learning biology man. CRATES! Violates I I say manage too much if that. I mean you don't to do not ask what? It just it's crazy when I took. Like, the past couple weeks about our by man, these tests are. You saying people getting a thrown up do. They do. You think. This! DEVANTE and the rest of the Delta state players knew what they needed to do. Study Workout Studies Sabur. But there are just so many distractions. Like. Nemeth Rome wanted him for the first time I'm digging it so much TV. Star watching grey's anatomy. Fixing Caesar. They were video games. Plan, batted. There were jobs to work. So in home and kids. About. Open. And I was Michaela. She's three months waking up the kids around dumping on. Energy. And everyday catastrophes of all kinds bag now today's tornado outbreak with one guy in the middle of this ten. Dammit, even had to dodged a tornado. Bad! It was a lot. April nineteenth. Twenty two days left in the semester. Coach. Cooley called another meeting and this time automobile. Start tried to roll Dion Al here. This time he took attendance. Sorry, Barakzai, scan the screen. Check to make sure everyone was. There are Luna. Turn Not. Real happy with how our last team meeting at all coach. Cooley felt like the players weren't taking things seriously enough like their workouts or these weekly family meetings. Everybody talks me about text me. Have this great year coach do this? We're going to do that. I don't see that Shit right now. Let me explain something. Tomorrow Is April twenty. We have two and a half weeks of school out. That's it. That's it. Gate. Don't waste a day. Don't waste a moment. Why go to quarterback Jimmy tennis balls against the wall. Got No wait set. Do push-ups ain't no damage? Will you know I was in side? We had to stay s I. Mean you can run in your yard Shit you run on the street. I love understand. This is coming from a place. Low I want you to be special. We're not going to be special if we can't all get locked in like we all right now. And at the end of the day that's how we bring joy back to our community. Enjoy back to our campus. By teaming up kicking Piss, somebody WHO's fault. That's how we do. That's our part in covert nineteen case you want to know and you know. Damn everything else. That's what makes us feel good. You have rough days. We will be there for you even though we can't hug you. We can't physically come see right now. We are GONNA Freak and be there for you. We will talk to you. See All hug your neck because we love. When I need a group of men, a group of men that is locked into this. Field me on that. You learn. What coach Cooley was saying was men get to work? And they did. Everyday. Scratching sounds outweighed. Scratching so most get. But. All my teammates. We do pushups every night. We have facetime. Dog took place. DO I. Tried to buy two hundred more push day. Running. Last night of. One point seven miles per through sprint from trek. Fancy who like cardio workout I workout on, Youtube that I can do. Mixing Weights. Kettle Bell. Later there. It makes you work hard. You know unless you take it you you feel like. You can move quicker fans. He weren't. Sidesteps. Selves, their curls stuff your child's. For good measure. Yoga. Do Yoga every day. and. They hit the books. Always. That, we had to write a final paper on basically everything you learned over here in the villa eight pages. You know. I can't play. Arcade. So I figured out a way. Vanturi Henderson linebacker from Texas, one of the players who is trying to buckle down. When the pandemic hit he'd been home in Texas. His books for biology and everything else were four hundred fifty miles away in Cleveland Mississippi. Going back to school. Books there. We had essay do I couldn't do the essay because. You know I just can't go. Look up stuff on. Youtube relied s I. You know like that's incorrect. Information like won't Equerry inflammation. So, Don borrowed his mom's car for a day. To Tom. Japan almost the cleaning on my dorm. Grab still. Got Right back on the road. So now he had his books. But, it's hard to study in a house with six brothers and sisters. Everyone cooped up because of the pandemic. So eventually move to his grandparents house nearby. Will. A gold. Air Movie Muffler. DAVINCI's grandfather. Hindu Henderson needed a fair amount of help around the house. His health wasn't great pup blonde. Granny. She added Koba Strokes. For Boys So. I'm helping out everything I. Can I do what I what? I can help them married saying like my puppets salad. Who get cleaned up. It was a lot quieter there and eventually was finally able to study. Art Everybody screen. April twenty six fifteen days left in the semester. Coach Cooley called another meeting. What's important now right now? What's important right now? That's what we got four votes on. This made is right now. Okay right now. Some you guys might be taking Donald this week if not, you're preparing for files. GET AHEAD! Finish all assignments. Finish all the psalms getting right down here to the head. Coach. Cooley had prepared a powerpoint. Okay X Y limits. This next slide was a photo of wild. Running through a field. We're going to be able to run wild together. We got prepared prepare like a bunch of horses that have been caged up. and. They're finally finally set loose. That's how be hundred days. In one hundred days, we're going to be practicing football. Are, you going to be read. And made a two hundred days. Somebody help me out who we got two hundred two days. Using. You Damn Right. Mississippi couch. It's common. Is Common quake me and I WANNA. Keep motivating you to let you know. It's common man. The next week and a half to two weeks the huge for our football team. Everybody do their part. Prepare for your bottles. Attack your calls. After the break. Finals. I I'll talk to me. About what you have the rest of this week in gray and your great 'cause. They're coming her. Coming into Finals Week Cooley called one of his wide receivers. Oakley Kalman to check in. We got a good shot here, so talk to me. Let's start with interpersonal communication okay. Four in the personal odds of Turned it. My well, farmer is a bit ahead do. The coaching staff was keeping Google doc on every single player. What classes they were taking what specific assignments they had do. So. Coach Cooley knew that Oakley had been struggling in interpersonal communication ever since the class went online. A coach Cooley said there is still time. So bumping did well in the last two assignments that she's on grading. And the essay you just turned in, and then you kill the final. We could be looking at a beep. For Beverly. Not that's called. That's called the fourth quarter of right there, brother. Is there. Meanwhile Devante Henderson also stressing about finals. Curtis called in to check in. He'd been up late writing an essay for world history. Though might I took a little nap about an hour. Rely focused more. I got back up. On their site. The NAS Miramar. We'll wait. I, forgot the poem work sided page. Going back over I see some of missed. On All website. Go back and do it. The back in. The and I looked at it. I said man essay the. Someone not getting. and. I forgot to put make it. Make you double space to go back in there, and make it though plates, and then I send it in. Lee Eilly. And, then there were the final exams first. CPR by not. Administration, you got finals and all those do today. Which one are you most? Out of those which one which one of those makes you a little nervous. Biology. What grade you're getting right now? Biology and ask not sixty nine. Oh, so you need to do well on the test. On this test. Fans get. Weaker so later, Curtis talked to Davonte again and this time Vanturi had some news, but wasn't good. It didn't have anything to do with finals or a school at all. It was about his grandfather Hindu. Henderson! The other night devante was outside when you heard his grandmother calling his name trying to get his attention. He ran into the house and saw his grandfather on the floor. Granny was in what I'm trying to get him up would like. Don't do. I our take if he had a pull back until it bill multiple his pulse. There was no pulse. entrees grandfather was dead. One of the people of Entree wanted to tell was coach coach Cooley. He talked about how much he meant to him and I said well he he's. He's still gonNA. Be Watching your place. You know watching you perform and. Watching over us. Coach Cooley said he was proud of had voluntary was handling it. You know Devan trae was. He's sad, but he he's at that. Million Dollar Smile, and he's still like. Coach and this is what I gotta do. All right. Guys. We're not going to be your long. I appreciate you guys. May eleventh the last in the semester. Time for one more meeting. We're going to get together. Just remember what we talked about. We cannot control what is going on right now. All we control is how we respond to it how we handle this adversity. We played football men. At varsity, just part of what you eat every day. You Get up. Near edged absent cereal, a little adversity adversity for lunch. Little Bercy for dinner. Used to taking it every day. So. Let's respond to it the correct way right now. I love you guys on. I'll let you know. We're GONNA meet again. Right, we just stay connected with one. Another stay connected with your coaches. I can't wait to get back with you guys. Highly probably I'll keep working out rest. Together for to? Go also. The. School year had come to a close. And coach Cooley Call Daddy with an update. His his players. head-on. Would he needed them to do? What they needed to do for themselves. They passed their classes almost every one of them. And, the team had a collective GPA. Of two point nine nine. Almost a solid B.. Now's for Davonte hundred. The Guy who once said about biology Lord, have mercy. The student whose grandfather had died in the middle of all this. devante had finally gotten his grade back. From his final exam in Biology Out of a possible score of one, hundred and fifty. devante. Scored, a one twenty six. That's eighty four percent. passed. After finals. Trade could finally celebrate. And the way he celebrated. Shopping for Mother's Day. was basically cabinet. In a minute loop? He decided not just to get a gift for his mom. Devante put together all these aspects He bought candles and bracelets and many bundt cakes. Cakes The case won't pass that. Tyler mothers feel. Drove around town, handing them out to basically every woman he saw. Four Man Toco. You'll people. Give them a rose. Hill. After making it through some really tough months. Time to feel good for a change. We got through it. I'm. Moving on. To the next thing. I've got a push. Nobody. This spot if everything goes as planned. The rest of the team. Back in the classroom and back on the field. And Pretty soon they hope. We gathered not for zoom meeting, but upstairs in the field house and the family meeting room. With their coach. I can't wait can't wait. To see is can't wait to. You I. Don't know you ever Dan to charge the south. Will take time to get up and greet one another. They're happy to see him you. and. Uh. In the dark corona virus and the Delta is reported and produced by me. Madeline Baron managing producer Smart Free Mark. Producer Natalie Jabotinsky associate producer Raymond Tunga car and reporter Parker Yesica. Significant additional reporting and production for this episode Curtis Gilbert. The series was edited by Kathryn Winter. The editor in chief of APM reports is Chris Worthington. This episode was mixed a Corey shuttle. Original Music for the series by Gary Meister. To See photos that accompany our series. You can go to our website in the dark podcasts dot org. Photography for this series by baton depth. We want to give a special. Thank you to a very special person someone who's been behind the scenes. US in the dark, every step of the way for the past two and a half years booking plane tickets dealing with expense reports noise candy ready for late night ads. Shelly Langford the project coordinator for APM reports. Shelly leaving to take a new job shelly, we wish you the best. We love you and we'll miss you.

Coach Cooley football Devante Henderson Curtis Gilbert Devante producer Devante Natalie Jabotinsky reporter Madeline Baron Youtube Cleveland Mississippi Delta State Texas Mississippi Delta Delta Delta State University Gabrielle State Vanturi Henderson
The Story of Skin Color

Science Rules! with Bill Nye

53:50 min | 1 year ago

The Story of Skin Color

"Ministry of Supply offers a new generation of dress clothes using innovative materials advanced manufacturing and timeless aesthetics. Tell you feel comfortable at work. How long all day all Ministry of Supply Clothing is get this people machine washable. It's wrinkle free climate control roll meaning. It's it's Wyking. It's it's warm when it's cold out. It's cool when it's warm. It's all that soft stretchy and it's sustainably made get ten dollars off your first purchase of Ministry of supplies scientifically better close by visiting Ministry of Supply Dot Com and entering the code science rules else you can listen to add free new episodes of science rules only on stitcher premium for a free month stitcher premiums go to stitcher premium dot com and use Promo Code Science. We're all science people exactly. We know it's a good idea because it's lasted. We teach kids and they get it chemistry three year biology in here. It's in whiskey. It's an ice cream. It's in who fell in love with the recipe for Success Rican. Make the world better four starting. Welcome welcome to science rules. I'm your host Bill Nye. This is the show where science rules. It's a call in show people. If you WANNA be on the show and I hope you do please go to ask ask Bill nye DOT COM and type on in. I want to hear what's on your mind. I want you to call me and tell me what's bugging you. What what thoughts do you have to think and so on and I am joined of course once again by science writer editor and dear friend really really Corey S Powell greetings corey so great to be here with you and you are if I may say an exemplary specimen of a human being I mean it's a podcast. People can't see it but like your skin your bone structure everything about you. It's really it's looking especially nice today. Thanks and we are joined today. By an expert expert on examples of humans Dr Nina Jabotinsky an anthropologist and paleobiologist who's very well known for her work studying the the evolution of skin color in humans Nina. Welcome welcome welcome to it's. It's absolutely fantastic to be here and to look at to you really fantastically beautiful examples of humanity right in front of me. Wow I know good homo sapiens when I see them and and New New York City is teaming with them and the studio has a few very fine example. D- I think that might be the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me that I'm a fine example simple homo sapiens. How did you get into skin color. Europe primatology primate tallest skin color that have happened to me totally by accident accident and it's been one of the most fascinating bodies of research. I could've ever work done. I was years ago working working at the University of Western Australia so you know she got a job. At the University of Western. Australia's does yeah yeah. How did you get a job at the University of Westminster I applied for it. The bill just like any other old working stiff did and it was a lovely jab and I worked there for almost five years enjoyed it very much but in the in the course of of just sort of doing my job I gave a lecture one day on skin because I was asked to buy one of my colleagues and in the course of this lecture I realized you know I didn't know very much about the evolution of skin or the evolution of skin color and hear all these students who were human biology geology students. They wanted to know something about this and I couldn't give them almost anything anyway. I got this sort of bug to work on skin color after I had sat in someone else's seminar about four late the B. Vitamin folate and how it contributes to normal all development days before when I've been giving that lecture I had read a paper about the effects of simulated sunlight on light on folate and that simulated sunlight broke down four late and they found that it broke down very very very quickly. I realized Oh my goodness. If you had a natural agent like solar ultraviolet radiation that broke down and something that was essential for embryonic life for human life and successful reproduction this might shed light light on the evolution of skin color a big. I usually think of too much sun exposure the risk of skin cancer but this is a whole other mechanism. You're talking about this. This is a whole other mechanism exactly you know one of the interesting things about skin cancer is that it is caused by high levels of ultraviolet eyelid radio station on the skin but most cases of it occur after people have gone through their reproductive years most skin cancers answers afflict people when they're in their late forties fifties sixties and beyond long after most people have had their kids so from evolutionary perspective skin cancer is not. It's not a straight selective feature but you're talking about gets right directly to the reproductive years and reproductive process. That's right here I was doing research happily on fossil primates and I had this insight and I didn't sort of put down the research on fossil primates. I still do it but I started doing this research on the evolution of skin color because I realized that this needed to be studied studied people are curious about why they have the skin color they have there were up to that point really no satisfactory explanations nations holistic explanations for why people had the range of skin colors that they did and I thought let's just try to answer these questions and so back in one thousand nine hundred ninety one thousand nine hundred ninety two. I started this research program and here. I am two thousand nineteen still hitting the pavement. Doing it and it's still l. Incredibly interesting what makes people have dark skin or light skin. What's the deal well. It's so simple because first of all we have to think about you in humans as they existed a long time ago all of us if we could if we could real the clock back. Let's say two million years two million quirkier two million quake years you know in the earliest days of the Genus Homo were Homo sapiens soth the earliest as the the genus. Homo we at that time probably began to lose most of our body hair and body hair does a lot of good things this one of the things that it does it protects us from the dangerous effects of ultraviolet radiation so literally blocks literally blocks so when you you say begin to lose there was an evolutionary advantage to not having hair because you could run for the rest cool enough to and at the same time that we lost our hair we gained seen a lot of sweat glands when we lose most of our body here we become potentially very sweaty we also gain all of us a tremendous mend sun protection by way of Permanent Melanin pigmentation in our skin lots of lots and lots of organisms animals have melanin in their skin to protect them from high levels of sunlight and and ionizing radiation and we evolved permanent Melanin pigmentation in our skin to provide a year round day in day out sunscreen under these intense UV conditions so why are we awfully awfully pigmented. I mean it sounds like a big advantage for avoiding fully deficiencies it was and when we lived when all of us when our ancestors lived in the African African tropics we all were darkly pigmented and this is a really important thing to know it's only a few populations of people apple and a hero speed forward to the evolution of Hamas sapiens our own species around two hundred thousand years ago and one hundred thousand years ago when people start moving to the extremities of Africa we see some changes in pigmentation going on some lightning of pigmentation and then Dan when a few small populations go into the Afro Arabian Peninsula and thence into South and Southeast Asia and yeah that's right and then eventually into Europe and eastern Asia what we see then is a dramatic loss of pigmentation so the current tremendous diversity that we see is a result of some selective pigmentation loss in addition to this wonderful complement of Sunscreen rich people that we find in the tropics that is so cool cool in other words ultraviolet of your ancestors determines the likelihood that you'll have a certain skin coward precisely and that that is the beginning of the end of the story. Let's take a call Dorothy dorothy out there. Yes I'm here. I'm so excited to be here. And where are you calling from. I'm calling Dallas. Texas and I think you may have almost answered my question run by the way Bill. You're so awesome. I had to say that Dorothy. You're right is awesome. Your kid anyways. Thank thank you dorothy. Thank you but go ahead hit hit us with your question if all humanity where crowded back into one general latitude for generations which would we all become one general color again. That's a great question Dorothy. Yes we probably would if off a few conditions were met if we were all sort of interbreeding with one another freely so and so what so so so if if everyone were choosing mates you know based on common culture and they chose maids. Make it and sweaty the selection among yeah. I do hear that hairless sweaty manner very desirable. This is the first time I'm realizing that but it's your changing my world. Dorothea can't account for this deterioration of the conference but gets deterioration uh-huh Anyway Dorothy. The second part of the answer is that you know if we were all interbreeding with another and if we all were in the same little all populations space exposed to the same environmental conditions yes we would all come to you know to look like one another and we would respond similarly similarly the sun now this would probably take some generations before all of the genes really really got thoroughly mixed up but how many generations because so if I understand it human migration patterns reflect or shown clearly one one lockstep correspondence between ultraviolet light and skin color yes and how long is it since we left the Fertile Crescent and wandered across Ross the Alaskans Bering Sea Bering Strait when all the snow was frozen up all the water was frozen in mountains and saw fifteen thousand years ago or so well probably the first people to get across the Bering Strait or or or move along the coast of the Bering Strait was yeah around fifteen thousand that's right that's right and so those changes in in jeans related skin color occurred quickly bye bye evolutionary standards. They occurred astonishingly quickly. We used to think Oh it may have taken twenty thousand years from any of these changes but in fact some of my geneticist colleagues in the US and the UK have figured out that some of these changes occurred within a few thousand years years in other words natural selection evolution was the pressures of evolution were so strong how strong worthy well you're supposed to say. There were so stray they were. They were so strong because in some of these areas in Europe and northeastern Asia and the Bering Strait the levels of ultraviolet radiation Gatien were so low that people had to lose pigment in their skin in order to maintain production of vitamin D in their skin and they really need vitamin D to stay healthy so you're born light skinned you had an advantage and let us say Britain tug as ah so this gets the other half of the equation that you you don't want so much. UV coming into your skin. That's breaking down your full late but you need enough coming in that you're making vitamin. D and that's that's the balance exactly and if you live at a very high latitude where there's very low and very seasonal ultraviolet radiation then the less pigment that you have the less natural sunscreen the better because then you can take advantage of the UV for making vitamin D in your skin Dorothee wide Why did you ask this question. Why is this on your mind very cleverly posed I might head well it basically because of racial tensions which shouldn't be there the you know the AL attitude today is so tense and why is that you know just because your skin is a different color does not mean you're any better worse or different than the next person and and it just occurred to me while we were all crowded into one area. Maybe we would become one caller and lose a lot of this while I'm better than you because I'm a different color for what we have to think about and Dorothy what we have to think about too is is that when we think about sort of racial tension we have to think about how races says were sort of formulated in the first place. These are not natural categories. They were created by people in the eighteenth century century. They are intellectual constructs that are basically products of of sort of European philosophers and natural historians mines signs and these are folks who had serious attitude problems and the house and they had a serious lack of information and so they lumped and they didn't know very much about diversity of people on the earth's surface so they lumped them what they knew of them into a few groups and and a few guys call these races you know we have lots of examples in history in anxious history and in prehistory of love people who look differently coming together and yeah they they have raids and they have small wars but they didn't consider themselves to be separate races. Sometimes they would refer to themselves as sort of less civilized and more civilized according to what the other people were wearing or how they were acting or what language they spoke. We've always been good it. Other People Ryan Phobia seen a phobia but we never had until modern times they sort of these racial templates that we have today or that we've had for the last roughly two hundred and fifty to three Hundred Years Dorothy. You've hit the nail on the head. You've you've taken this conversation to a whole new level of technical fabulousness. Thank you for calling. Please stay tuned years. Dr Jabotinsky Expands stick around for more science rules after this with hellofresh America's number one meal kit. You'll get easy seasonal recipes and premeasured ingredients. It's delivered right to your door. All you have to do is cook and enjoy hellofresh makes cooking delicious meals at home a reality regardless of your comfort in the kitchen from mm step-by-step recipes to premeasured ingredients. Hello fresh gives you everything you need to get a while worthy dinner on the table and just about thirty minutes so you can finally family say goodbye to endless grocery store trips and take out food or fresh offers something for everyone from family recipes to coury smart and Vegetarian and fund menu series like Hall of fame and Craft Burgers and it's so flexible easily change your delivery days food preferences and skip a week whenever you need or add extra meals to your weekly order as well as Yummy add ons like garlic bread and cookie dough now because we're doing these he's promotions for hellofresh. I have been told that I'm GonNa get a whole. Hello fresh meal kit and I have people over dinner often enough so this is going to be this is going to be exciting. Keep you posted frady dollars off your first month of hellofresh. Go to hellofresh dot com slash science rules eighty and enter code science rules eight zero. That's like receiving eight meals free when you go to hellofresh dot com slash science rules eighty and enter science rules eighty. KIWI CO create super cool hands on experiments for kids that make learning about steam that science technology algae engineering art and math fun with a Kiwi Co subscription each month the kid in your life will receive a fun engaging new project which will so help them develop their creativity and confidence the projects are designed to spark creativity encouraged anchoring and help kids of all ages. I learn now you know Corey Bill. I have been sent to couple Kiwi crates and what you think I thought cool because the real you can. The a little parts are very nicely made. I guess they're laser cut their precise rules fit together very well and the instructions are good. They're good and they go along if you did this go back because that's not quite how it's supposed to go to that's good. I I love that I would have made those no when they can troubleshoot rookie mistakes wchs at any rate. Kiwi Co is offering science rules listeners the chance to get their first month for free to redeem this offer more about their projects for kids of all ages visit visit Kiwi Co dot com slash science rules. It's Kiwi Co dot com slash science rules walls is back. You're saying that there there is a genetic selection process for skin color so when we're looking at different skin colors and recalling them different races how significant genetic differences in like it or if I see a dark skin color does that mean that those people are all served genetically similar. It's a great question. Corey and the the differences in in the skin pigmentation genes can sometimes be considerable but what's interesting from an evolutionary perspective is that you can get to darkly pigmented people who have different in jeans that confer the dark leap pigmented skin or highly tangible skin this is the result of human migration the human the Niagara and natural selection acting on people when they enter or reenter an area of high. UV were like like this is. Kinda converted evolution. Exactly people in East Africa have dark skin people in southern India dark skin but it's a different combination of genes yes the some of the genes are different and this is remarkable. You know when you have these examples of convergent evolution. They're they're just superb and they show generally the strength of natural selection. How important is because we've had naked skin as we've gone around to most of these places in our history people in northern China have light skinned people in northern France have light skin four mostly entirely different genetic Greece so this is astounding same ultraviolet reason is for the same ultraviolet rays exactly so you have this unity of the physical force the evolutionary force that is that is causing populations to adapt and yet you have different genetic machinery the as it were that is causing the actual pheno type the appearance to this is a result of the random nature of evolution. Somebody's somebody's stumbled on a combination of genes that enable them to fit in wherever they were living and their kids to fit in those particular individuals who had that particular combination had greater reproductive success than those who didn't and what we see is that the advantage vantage of those combinations in very high and very low UV environments was significant and the changes occurred really quickly in evolutionary evolutionary terms but because there's visible people respond to them and identify with them project all these things onto them. Yes we have another question here via yeah see you're out there. Where are you calling from Hi guys. I'm Doug Good morning from London. mistrial. Ya Go wow wow man is awesome really stopping. Thank you across the world to us. That's that's very kind of you. Thank you for letting me read. It's a coastal L. to you. So you have a question. Yes sorry. My question is I've been cold. Albina by people walking cost me because I'm very very what but I have skin pigmentation in the form of DOC freckles and moles and my hair and blown and not wight the my understanding was that I can't be Albina what colds as album and how's it distinguish from just being very pale over how has taken that seems like it would be a huge evolutionary disadvantage manage to stick around the star relatively long theat- those are really excellent questions first of all you don't have album albinism as you completely point out is characterized by a complete absence of pigmentation it can be some sometimes global lack of pigmentation expectation in the skin and the eyes and the hair or sometimes just the skin but the genetic mutations that cause Albany system really really lead to a completely different appearance than what you have now I would venture to say that your ancestors are from somewhere in in far northern Europe perhaps not the UK but but you know far northern Europe and that more dramatic yes exactly so the the Nordic Germanic is is definitely where the blonde hair no doubt came from now. Your ancestors lived under an ultraviolet radiation regime that was very different from the one that you're living under now and woollen gung right it is extremely is low extremely seasonal and basically they did not need to have any melanin sunscreen in their in their skin is that if they had it was a disadvantage exactly and they needed to have deep pigmented skin and so what you have is his beautifully adapted to the plains of northern Germany so sorry that you're in eastern Australia you know I'm because they're you face some of the highest UV levels on earth and as you know you have to protect yourself vigilantly us to a question very very much so do you wear a lot of hats. You wear you carry a parasite. I bet a lot of very broad award brimmed hat probably just everything just everything I put on. My skin has to have sunscreen in it. Yes and the Australians millions have been really at the vanguard of Sun Protection in the world because there are so many people of Thalia's appearance who live in Australia now and they live under high UV regime so they they wear a lot of sunscreen. They wear protective clothing. The kids and the adults wear hats it all the time. It's it's a great country for Sun Awareness now. Let me ask you this in the check this out you. When we met years ago you pointed out that as people migrated from East Africa they went through Eurasia came across to the Americas north North America then they moved down the west coast of North America into South America their skin their their offspring who had darker skin had a slight loyd advantage enough of an advantage over a few millennia here we are but their skin never got quite as dark as in east Africa because in part they had more hats. Is that accurate that's well. They had more hats and they had a lot of other gear. You know when we think about humans moving around. Let's say fifteen eighteen thousand years ago they had stuff they had the beginnings of sewn clothing tailored clothing because they have needles they they had shelters or get a needle. Well you get a needle from ivory from bone so people started making needles big time around twenty thousand and years ago and that really revolutionized those days Corrie ten back done quite well and anyway that made a big difference difference because when we could bring with us all of this cultural gear. Rei kind of something yeah exactly it was like Paleo Rei the original original sort of protection that was not our skin against the environment this change things. Is that significant. It made a huge difference. Wow you see a great question where your hat young woman and your sunscreen doing well with that but now in in our lifetime. I I've been on earth six decades plus. Are we going to see theism offspring that have darker skin have a slight advantage is that measurable basically Thea and her family. We are living in cultural bubble where they're completely protected from the adverse effects of ultraviolet radiation. We've already not heard about her broad hats and her kids if she has any are you know wearing sunscreen and wearing broad hats and basically all of this cultural buffering as we would call it protects us from the action of natural selection so you know we can continue to sort of have skin that doesn't quite match the ultraviolet radiation levels of our environment because we compensate through what we do and what wear cash. It's it's bigger than evolution. It's bigger bigger so thank you very much there. Thank you very much for your call as you nudge it along and a fabulous wait. Nina like used used. What's your origin story. How did you become a Paleo biologist for crying lot. Bill it started of talk about an accident. I was raised in upstate New York and it just so happened that beneath my feet literally as I was walking around as a kid there were all of these fossil's astles android bites every every La Bites cry noise all of these interesting invertebrates and I asked my father about them when I was it really tiny and he said well. That's the evidence of life on earth. There was a c. an ancient see here millions of years ago and I thought what what what's bad about. These were just beautiful things. I was interested in fossils from about the time I could start thinking and I'm afraid I haven't grown up so we have another call when we do. We have jewel's jewel's. You're out there where you calling from. I'm from the Miami Florida there. You Go and you have a question I do. I think you for having me on show fan a dog on the a show to he'd been quite up until this to see her. She have hair. It's actually one hundred covered covered in hair. You can tell probably not a human. No not four lake thing know that. Oh yeah there's giveaway but go for go so my question is so non. Melanin like in an offspring is a simple as darker the dominant trait and lighters or does like the parents on exposure affects what genes are supposed to kids pretty much saying like is their F. genetic link the factors like latitude and general exposure good question Joel's effort genetic link. Wow that vocabulary do you. Maybe you should start by explaining but an EPA genetic link is do you want to basically what jewels is asking is if something in the environment in which we live right now can actually affect affect the expression of the genes and is Lamar kind of draft stretch EPI genetic mechanisms now have gone from sort of the the lamarque closet into the bright light of day and are widely accepted as being really important in understanding our evolution and understanding stander health and so forth DNA but something happens the environment to modify it this restaurant sometimes it can be passed on in the case of skin color color. The genes actually to the best of our knowledge are not affected by the parents sun exposure so oh the skin pigmentation genes that come together will interact with one another and they will produce a particular skin pigmentation nation in the in offspring now that can be to you know it can be a little bit intermediate and can be more like one parent and less like another it but there's nothing dominant or recessive about it. Basically skin pigmentation is caused by you know a small bag Agfa of genes dozens of g baggy jeans baggy jeans and some of them have a stronger effect than others and they do interact with one one another and so it's hard to predict from the appearance of two parents want their offspring will look like except that they will be somewhere intermediate there you go so EPA. JANETTA schism is not the deal X. Jewels and thank you for asking that is a key a key point point the Doctor J. Dr Bonski is made here now. Thank you jules fracturing it absolutely doctor. You do a lot of public talks. You talk about skin and we're living at this time. The word everybody likes is fraught. Yeah fraught with the trouble loaded with problems. What what kind of reaction do you get from people at talked to mostly academic audiences but I talked to big public audiences on many cotton. What about a podcast audience a podcast study inside do occasionally. That's an excellent idea. Yeah thank you thank you for bringing that up with that said what's the reaction from people you know when people are curious about why they look the way they do. They come into a lecture curious and ready to learn and what what I try to do is talk about this interesting trait in vocabulary that they're not used to hearing when you talk about a controversial trait you need to talk about it stripped of the controversial jargon people bring a lot of taboos expectations baggage baggage both in terms of you know what what they are angry about or what they don't want to talk about race so that's always a controversial trait skin color. There's a controversial trait and it's even more controversial if you start out talking about white and black and brown or yellow and red these sort of cardinal old terms of racial designation. I don't use those I use descriptive terms. I use discussions about levels of ultraviolet radiation intensity and I talk about these mechanisms that I've explained in very simple and straightforward terms. I I lead through people through the story as logically as I can and I talk about the health consequences and I talk about how different skin in colors have come to have labels and be associated with race names but basically when people hear that story story. They're just relieved. People recognize at least when they're sitting there that okay these these facts make sense. These scientific facts makes sense. This continuum of skin color is a really interesting natural phenomenon that is a wonder to behold and we've put these as cultural labels onto people and they've become these rigid templates in our mind and this is a mess. Most people come out of one of these sessions feeling like hold on we can change this and I must say this is why I've gotten into childhood education because I think we can change this. I think we can change the way that we think about skin color new say childhood. How old are you talk talk because I have a. I have a clear idea. You know you know I think kids when they're about seven eight nine. Ten are incredibly curious and getting more curious about why are they look the way they do why people treat one another differently on the basis of appearance and they're watching their parents and they're watching other folks around them and so. I think talking to fairly little kids including middle school aged kids about this. It's like let's let's cut racism before it even starts by explaining some simple facts of the the beginnings the origins of human physical diversity kids love it science will be right back greetings everyone. You know we hear it science. It's rules. We like to promote the show. It's when one of the things we have to do to get people hooked on US and so getting promotional products. My friends should not be rocket science whether it's pens or water bottles are travel mugs quality logo products can put your design on just about anything placing an ordered quality. Logo Products is fast easy and simple. I'll tell you why because their patented website search functions help you limit that selection by what's most most important to you whether it's your budget or the date you need. Your items delivered better yet. What you see is always what you pay simply enter order quantity and instantly see a precise breakdown of every pricing detail right there on your screen. There are no hidden fees and shipping is included head to quality quality logo dot com and use the code science rules to save ten percent on your order. That's quality logo dot com and use the code. Science Science Rules to save ten percent listening to science rings. This is a perfect the time I believe to take a call from `Szralia. Did I say it properly `Szralia. That's right where you calling from high shred where you calling from. I'm from Chicago Chicago somewhere. In North America the middle there shred hit your question that is yeah ah scientific other than the Melanin there is no such thing as brace does that mean right oriented healthcare so like certain diseases more prevalent prevalent and other places than in other races and others is a myth or is it caused by societal factors like cuisine or culture or something something like that mostly this race oriented medicine is a myth but but tribal I mean there's there's cystic. Fibrosis largely affects people of European ancestry. sickle cell anemia affects people of African ancestry right but we can have people from a variety -iety of different so-called races or ethnicities who suffer from sickle cell anemia and similar maladies cystic fibrosis for for instance occurs in a wide variety of people mostly from Europe but not exclusively not exclusive that yes yup and so you know with a lot of shrill with a lot of the modern medical sort of tailored racial medicine. What we're seeing is over-simplified? I simplified treatments that are based on the assumption that people have a certain bag of genes that may contribute to sir predisposition to diseases or that they have a particular lifestyle now the Diet the Diet question and often often these sort of the the sort of race based medicine is based on people's patterns of Diet yet diet and exercise diet and lack of sun exposure and so forth so that we can get sometimes patterns Saturn's of disease that appear to be mapping onto racial boundaries but in fact what they do is that they map onto class class boundaries societal cultural boundaries from that's right you know can you afford to eat better food and and go to the doctor and be free of stress for instance so I think we have to be extremely wary of of what is behind so-called called tailored racial medicine and mostly discard it and instead think about what confers health or lack of health or less good health on the basis of what we know of our own personal ancestry and life habits. So how do you sh- ray a this. This is like the the most important question of the day. Thank you so much but not the other questions were great. That's not a shred. This is a really good question and and thank you for bringing this up because it leads me to what I think is the question that we all want to know. How can we break down these deeply entrenched myths about race and skin color and cultures and so on well. I think we can do it in a variety of ways. Probably the most effective effective is through early childhood education and this doesn't mean that we have to teach kids about you know detailed biochemistry physiology which would not yeah cool yeah which would be cool but but we don't have to go into like you know deep dives into detailed physics or biochemistry we can teach kids basic phenomena that are completely understandable and they get int- that's the beautiful thing is when when you explain things like ultraviolet tre violet radiation intensity and skin color natural sunscreen the absence of sunscreen they get it and they say what's all the fuss about yeah. I I bet they do and also Becton Petras question here a lot these days when you're talking about medical research about personalized medicine where people are starting to think in terms of individual genomes and individual lifestyles rather than lumping people into groups. I mean that's sort of the next frontier in a very practical way that addresses part of which raise asking talking about this is e Sir recognizing that these these lump categories are many cases projections or misperceptions of what's of these very complicated pitted individual variations in many cases these are well-meaning attempts to try to personalize medicine but by well-meaning they tend to actually do as much harm as good because they tend to stigmatize groups that are that are being given particularly chilly so-called racially modified medicines or special for them medicines so it's true what inspired you to ask this question. Is something thing that that you've you've been involved with not really because I'm an engineer but I know that in my community we have a prevalence of people getting diabetes beatty's and old age and heart like heart problems and I don't really I don't know whether I see that and other reasons as much so I know that when it comes to US going to the doctor we usually get that that that's like something that's prevalent or more likely to happen and so I was just kinda wondering whether that was something that was just kinda fed to us because of a race or whether it was something that actually might be existing it sounds much more likely that that you have shared lifestyle style factors that may contribute to a particular pattern of disease well when I hear the word when I hear the word diabetes I associate that with diet is that incorrect diet sedentarism sitting around getting around us and and and not getting as much sun exposure poser I mean one of the interesting things about modern life is that we're inside and we're not moving around very much and so in many urban dwellers colors we see a low level of vitamin D Vitamin D deficiency and this actually can worsen the effects of diabetes in all cultures for sure yes in all cultures and we see this in all urban cultures worldwide now worldwide urban cultures. I Have Diabetes Diabetes and tendency toward and overweight seddon ISM and vitamin D Deficiency Agency speaking of vital Sri that was that is a great question. You kinda hit the nail on the head speaking here. Thank you speaking speaking of Vitamin D deficiencies. Everybody's talking about it is vitamin. D Do we all have everybody have a sudden vitamin. D deficiency the or is that there's two key molecules vitamin. D In ones being confused with the other bubby believe in people who live inside and who don't get much sun exposure and who don't eat food that has vitamin D in it can suffer from vitamin. D deficiencies in this does tend to be more common now in people who live in cities and don't get outside and so forth it isn't quite the plague that people have made it out to be nor is you know. Vitamin D supplementation clemente the universal panacea that it's made out to be but we can't get away from the fact that we live lives that are so different from those of our ancestors and so we have to compensate we do have to try to get more vitamin. D so that we don't become grossly vitamin. Item indeed efficient when we live urban indoor sedentary. Where do I the manufacturer Vitamin D. tablets capsules. Where do I get Bergemann. D You can get vitamin D from a variety of sources I mean commercial manufacturers many of them make vitamin. D actually from lanoline lanoline from the byproducts of wool making but you can also make vitamin D from variety of algae so there's you can get vegetarian vitamin. D You can get a date Warburg's but it's it's widely available now and cheap. I I really like my vitamin D Cork. It's bill the sound of lightning yes so that thunder. Nina indicates. It's time for the lightning round Nina. Do you use use sunscreen. I do and what is your ancestry. My ancestry is sort of a mixed bag of central European southern European OPEAN and North African so I I have sort of what's called Mediterranean olive skin. I tand quickly but I also am sensitive sensitive to sun especially if I haven't been out in the sun for a while. Do you take vitamin. D supplements I do do you take folate. Sometimes full eight is a is a great sort of anticancer agent but I I only take it occasionally or should we all be going outside more well. Certainly it doesn't hurt us quite as much as as some of the more vigilant dermatologists would have it especially when we expose bows parts of our skin that aren't normally exposed to the sun for instance if you're out of the office at lunchtime and you have a chance to expose your upper boro arm. Let's say or part of your leg to the sun. You can make vitamin. D in your skin really quickly right there in your leg corey right. They're roll up your sleeves five to ten minutes and that is not really long enough for you to do serious damage to your skin and so a little bit a little bit of unprotected sun exposure depending on what your ancestry is is probably going to do you more good than harm. We have emojis on our electric phone machines if we're five different skin tones right now. How many should we really have well if you could have the whole Pan Cam tone series you know of a hundred and ten or so that might be it's hundred I feel like being able to blend the colors emojis. That seems like a technologically feasible. If if you're out there you're an electrical engineer at their your software writer developer think about a spectrum of you could match to your own skin or the skin of the the person you're trying to send to some with one hundred ten gradations absolute done we got this is a question. Bill won't ask you this but I'll ask on his behalf if you really could have bills skull after he's done using it. would you want it or is that just creepy. Well you know skulls. Tell you a lot about a person the ancestry but they also tell you about what they did during their life so I could look at Bill's teeth. I could look it as his jaw joints. I could look at his eyes sockets. I could get a lot about how he spent his time by looking at a skull so yeah I would technically but you know I think he's got a little bit of you still left in it so here's hoping thank you so much Nita. This has just been fantastic. Thank you out there for calling in and really pushing our conversation sation for has just been another great podcast here at science rules just reminding us all that Nina Joe Bosque's the Evan Pugh Louis University professor of anthropology at Pennsylvania State University and she's doing so much to help us strip away the mysteries and misconceptions regarding skin color now Nina you've also written a book with a South African writer for kids and that's called skin again we are in that this was just a fun book that we we produced last year and I'm now in the process of writing a book for North American audiences and I'm. I'm right now looking for a writer to work with me on this an-and illustrator so I'm really excited but we've got a great publisher lined up and needless to say this is something that we all need clear freelance. I I am a freelance writer. There have collaborated on a certain number of books with writers including Bill Nye Rally. Yes building you. Don't remember I remember role to well bill. I am curious. Powell and remember when it comes to the Pale and pigmented parts of our universe science ends rules. If you like signs please take a moment to rate and review it and apple podcasts and on Stitcher it helps us out and helps other people learn about the show it helps us get the words out and I really appreciate you all taking a little bit of time so thank you science roses produced by Jordan Bell or engineer. Today's Jared O'CONNELL mixing in original theme music are by Casey Hoffer special. Thanks of course to through Claire Rawlinson and Chris Bannon is the CEO chief content officer of stitcher where science rules stitcher this holiday give the gift of hands on learning with Kiwi Kiko makes learning about steam fun with the projects designed to spark creativity encouraged tinkering and help kids of all ages. Learn Kiwi Co is offering science rules listeners the chance to get their first month for free to redeem this offer and learn more about their projects for kids of all ages visit. Kiwi Co dot com slash science rules. I'm I'm standing outside Smithsonian's National Museum of American history inside like a truly and objects and I have to go in there and find ten Tan so we opened a drawer here and there's Indiana Jones's Jacket and Indiana Jones is whip. What is this yeah. I'm of Monty and I am lost at the Smithsonian. Where do I begin. This place is obviously full of fascinating stuff off his jacket by Henry Winkler happy days there one hundred and fifty six million objects in the Smithsonian's collections here are muppets these own just objects pieces of America's self identity. I'm looking at a robe with the name Mohammad-ali. Only ten episodes only ten objects six. That's pretty amazing. Loss of the Smithsonian is out now. 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Ep 25: Zoom Rockman's Churchill and Harry Markham's Jabotinsky

Jonny Gould's Jewish State

29:41 min | 11 months ago

Ep 25: Zoom Rockman's Churchill and Harry Markham's Jabotinsky

"Welcome to Johnny Gould's Jewish state my guests. Today I'll both both nineteen years old and making significant waves. Zoom Rochman is already a veteran cartoonist. The beano since moving onto private eye magazine in his pithy incisive satire is regularly published his ideas in social comment belie his comparative youth. And Harry Markham who calls himself an unapologetic Zionist. He refuses to compromise or hide his Jewishness and support for Israel and confronts his opponents on university campuses he's and beyond. I'm an interview. Both of them in the space of twelve hours and was arrested by their strength of character and their talent. Now I've known zoom him for three years and I've watched him develop both as a man and as an artist I caught up with him. His latest commission portrait of Winston Churchill. which had been presented on the walls of the Hyatt Regency Churchill Hotel in London as well as being commissioned at such a tender age zoom continued? His studies at Central Saint Martins College where he studying graphics. This is such a prestigious knife year. Yes it is. Thank you now. Your drawings of Churchhill in that Zoom Rochman style on strewn across the Churchill. By what how does that feel. You know you're a boy of nineteen year old man of nineteen years old. What does it feel? I like to be the vanguard of your career like this and making such a such a positive message about one of our greatest. Prime ministers is is crazy seeing the mola all up on the wall at this size and give them a whole new life to this this ball. He is like his actually here. Why several of them? Because this is my favorite is the one with Clementine Churchill and then with his dog as well which actually just right next to us as well and the charismatic one with the Cigar as well what would winston Winston Churchill make the turmoil of today the pro-europeans the remain as claimed him for that party everyone and the brexit. She is claiming for that as well as well. That people spread out Often some some about Paul Paul of Europe or we never have been that was during the war where Europe was taken over by Hitler now of course. This isn't the first time we've seen Churchill drawings. I mean I remember seeing them around the Savoy Hotel as well. Yeah they they commissioned me to six stories of Winston Churchill because he has his own table there he likes around there and it was in the corner us over could see him and he everybody But this during this one and it's been interesting 'cause I haven't been doing it directly onto paper I did Pencil drawing and then scanned into digital so I found the unable to experiment a lot more with this one or the different splashes of of color and things that I did one. Call the What they want me to do on the animal lover charged with animal and his people and the only thing that's colored in the tongue just checking out Every piece of all look I did was they wanted me to show different parts. Lots of Winston Churchill biff different bits of his life so that will move the Animal Lover Handler wartime prime minister the cigar smoker already. That one 'cause it's it's it's bigger than life size the actual printed as pretty crazy to see other mommies saying so I've been following your career for semi as and watched you developed from being a beano cartoonist to the private eye cartoonist as well. You're so prolific that actually we didn't pick all your cartoons one thing that springs to mind most recently was Kind of protest if you like against Homelessness Christmas with the Punchline Ho Ho homeless homeless what an active genius you also write your own lines as well as draw them done. Well why why are usually there is 'cause probably comes out every not weeks so usually near the end of the two weeks all Riedel. The newspapers on my IPAD free for I pick out all the different stories. I put them on the white boat in my living room and I look at them for a while and then you know. Sometimes we'll get an instant jerk for some of them sometimes after the book. Look at that and then you know often I look for phrases that politicians keep on saying like I kept hearing them. Say you know we have to make a compromise and do what I wanted to do so after the cartoon about that and then also this theme of tactical voting. That's happening at the moment I did cartoon. That's actually in this week. Probably the which is so. Have you decided who you're voting against because gripe because of course this is the thing about tactical voting and in some parts office of the country. It's Brexit US labor in other parts of the country it's conservative versus Liberal Democrats. There is no national picture about what is going on in the country at the moment which goes to show just how divided pops his country is. I think if we end up with another hung parliament is community like total chaos. Else mean before this election came up I just felt like you know. We're at a stalemate nothing akon say any way out of it. I don't know what's going to happen. Teach it should maybe. UK will just split off into different little chunks and things it splits off from France. I WanNa talk to have out your life drawings which I see quiet law office. Well this body of work which which is adds to your sort of Gravitas? Chances are a as a conscientious adds to the weight. Of course eurosystem. A student at central Saint Martins as well. What are you doing that to add to your cartooning I I think just the point on the life during I I started to 'cause I needed some work to go in my portfolio. Full my submission. Central Saint Martins. Just wants to show that more more stuff so that was about two years ago. Now I've kept because it really helps like Cotton it's very loose. That's kind of stalled out. They want. Why find that the more detail join our can do? When I'm doing my life story? The more feel justified Something quite lease for those kind of teams and and also have my in Comex gold the same dock and doing since I was eight and in the latest issue the same number thirteen the brexit issue one of the comic strips that was in it was was a strip called. James Dyson Goes Matt Right. And at one point he walks into a boardroom meeting completely naked apart from a dachshund fam- round his these regions. And I think my life drawing really helps me realistic naked. James dyson fantastic. Well look it all adds to your experience experience. I mean it is. It's amazing because it's one of the best schools in the country and this year on actually granary square lost heroes Autrey associating that foundation In the first year of the graphics degree and unfunny already fun amazing young talent run the. Yeah Yeah it's just great to be around other young creative people 'cause I I didn't actually do all in school before like foundation in degree level. I I didn't I do. I love GPS's because they tell you what to Joel they just make a copy of From other people I just really enjoy that. I think I in fact dropped it even before. GPS Now Paul McCartney says. I'm glad I didn't learn music at college because because it would have taken away some of my natural ability like if he'd learned tonight plates and could rides down musically and I'm just wondering whether studying graphics fixes central Saint Martins might interrupt your natural skills or or is it the other way round when it comes to aunt you know the actually enhances no I think and like the very loose with. How did the lessons? I think I only have two told lessons a week. Were actually cheeses and they give us these very wide projects where we can just go out and do anything and they even say like. Don't try to please. Let's do something you want to say. we'd fail L. because this is just like An education you know when you're out in the real world when he wants to fail foundation costs there were people who Brady didn't enjoy it but that's just said that they can think of anything today because there's such a wide range of things. I'll draw Churchill's yes. He's he's such a Greg. Why such a hero for seventy people? It's your real name isn't it zoom. It's not staged in your name's not Zevulun and you brother cooled as you'll parents say pushed the boat out. I was born in the eighty thousand. My parents so product designers and they fall last the better so full that is which lets us look good and then they came out to the end and ace. Your brother other was actually I think. Stage name for votes. If I don't know the details of this definitely Roy Lichtenstein feel about without those names isn't I and I'm the son is like Quite an old family name. A great great grandma. Rhyme Hata Now like me you get involved in going to synagogue right. And it's very soulful going to a synagogue full of old men and the long after supposedly it should be closed down it continues. I'm a member of eastbound synagogue which is an absolutely beautiful place because it's nearly one hundred years old and it's still going and they're about thirteen people there they don't get ten men to be able to take the toward out the arc and run a What looks like an Orthodox service seven men five women and a Khitish? which cake in a bit of wine now you we're we're also involved with an amazing building amazing? Show that I've seen in the send long after it rightfully should be shut down which is amazing. Well just the road literally. No Jews left there. The congregation of Jacob One amazing amazing experience. That must have been. What is really good going though I I first of all I think are joined because I was going to J. Costs and they said you have to be in a cynical to come here and then I just stayed there because I loved it so much like there's any full synagogues left in the east end of London which is a low and surprisingly low considering? Yeah it's still a very small number and I was always the tenth Ma'am when a when I had my for that as well and why lock about to was it was so like in a time. Capsule in a way is sort of like You Walk in there and you don't know what year it could be. It could be twenty nineteen nineteen forty eighteen sixty or something. Because we're not on offense and things when we're in the and that's something I really liked about it that so of timelessness and also because there were so few people I was always the service You know picking Torah Vignette stuff and I think I love Mitzvah points. Nothing you probably did You're listening to Johnny Goudie students. You could leave a rating or even a year. That really helps discover the show. My question about that is. How much does your Judaism add to your? Oh coaching went to your drive. Your ambition to WHO's Zoom Roquebrune is today while otherwise being surrounded by Jewish humor back at home. It's like a competition about. He can make people can make each other lawfulness very cool but one of the I stand up events. I went to one of Jackie. Mason's lost standup comedy routines. And just. It's just hilarious. Thing is definitely influences by humor and presumably on the bench that went on in that synagogue as well. Oh yes that's that's the main reason I went like 'cause though just so funny and like you know they get told to stop talking for the service but you know you want them to keep talking. Just seventy nuggets white ready funny funny things that people I presume there was no full time. Rabbi there it was just the elders of the community will take full. Time was a rabbit out David Zoom Rochman. Thank you very much. Congratulations on this latest richest exhibition. And may you continue to thrive. I am a big fad. Thank you very much. Remember the name. How could you forget it? Zoom Zoom Rochman. Now Harry so Markham is an unapologetic Zionist. It's not an easy position to take in the UK. Indeed he feels at odds the country which brought him up from birth. This one he plans to live in Israel but I he's writing a book and spending his time addressing students on campus about the things things that most worry him complacency in his own Jewish community and the hate from outside it. Israel is being threatened from neighboring states dates whose very existence if Iran have it their way around Attain a nuclear off. Its existence in. My view is powerless Karlis. Thank you have a strong army but still even of Israel is facing even is always the oppressed state here to weld hype hype has been perceived as to be oppressed the the oppresses and we. So now you invest campuses today and the university campuses supposed to the intelligence here was my grandmother used to say the Intelligencia the next generation that are going to run this country Only am deeply concerned turned about educating my kids at University here I have always been skeptical of tertiary education. Not for things like being A. Don't tell her annoying or the dentist. Whatever that is but certainly many many other forms of tertiary education actually seems to me in the twenty first century to actually constraining lines range rover them actually being places of universal fool which is what university is supposed to a university should be a place where there is critical goosing king whether is intelligent discussion? I did a critically assessed Mike experience the universe is is is that universities. Now have come in a sense of quite a Wesleyan in the free speech is being extremely regulated You know I was in. I was in Leeds last week and I was on a panel discussing Zionism and I and I and I used the words. Our business terrorist describe harpist limits terrorists in pre state Israel manager Palestine who are attacking Jews. Them Lonzo honestly have gone attention. Nine in the hour brought to thirty six CETERA and owns described and I label them as Arab Islamic terrorists. I was basically The one of the SU offers the students union offices came in a stately muscle. Speaking indirectly said please mind your language and I was total so I any to moderate what I'm saying because it probably what I'm saying is offensive really interested in what's in PR fended on. I'm interested in fact act and the fact is these people. This is where the definition of Islamophobia splits from antisemitism because you might have been accused of his number phobia by An opponent actually what they were doing there was actually constraining your ability to describe what you you saw the truth correct or not you know I probably under this definition is not my favorite food but what I take us through that term. Because it's address that I can make a legitimate just criticism. Bislama killed taxes practices by the Anti Christ so that on Christ absorbing Zapping Pay Judas. My rabbi I I called my my rob is more hassle than than most others because I I am critical and I and I and I read texts critically but I feel that this policy of not being able to talk about Islam because we might offend is extremely dangerous dangerous and I think it's threatens the future of the democracy I know I've I've always I've always. I've always believed. We need to draw the the distinction between sort of blatant racism which of indiscriminate attacks Muslims. And making just Kristen Vishal Vishal I am opposed to much is dammit. Theologists says Los be says to route attacking Audrey Muslims. No do I believe we should absolutely absolutely not at I think women's Anti Semitism antisemitism is irrational. Irrationally believes choose the source of the world's ills is. I'm Libya I think is almost just. It's irrational to fit the threat of of fanatical Islam. I take take rational to fare such a serious threat to Western civilization. I think it's it's more so this is the definition of what might cool unapologetic Zik Zionism. you truly probably the first generation in two thousand years of Jews that can actually be improved because you have the state of Israel which is beginning to become a truly first world nation. Perhaps the credit crunch in two thousand and nine was the arrival of the country in the Premier League of Nations And that's not asper which coward actually under threat their lives for so long with you know weakened its round an American culture which wasn't quite as free as it was about assimilation in the first fifty or sixty years of these radi state in parallel. So so you can take. You'll one of those new Jewish. I wish people who've been the next generation I wished I troops on me. That's when I look. I wish I wish that were true but I look out Investi campuses today and I look at particularly our Jewish leaders on campus and are looking for example Union of Jewish students and that response to Israel apartheid week which was an attempt to against unstitched misers rebels to have a peace week. I saw students. On campuses holding Palestinian flags will cut. It's ready plaques. They believe that the best way I support Israel and the best way to pay respect to mel opponents to disrespect of so I oppose that wholeheartedly. I think it's essential show is when we'll supporting Israel. Our primary consent shouldn't be others. Think about such a primary concern should be to promote strong Israel and too shy to be on a public and take about how support for our collective civil rights but name designed as I at the same time. I don't know I just always about restricting freedom of speech for example group which is approaching state solution groupon on university. Campuses is awesome bre head-to-head debate. They refused to debate me Scattered and then bill but they did. They did say however they were. Debate me on a panel discussing dissipate view. Message on the noises. Of course. Of course they would discuss discuss Zionism with me on a panel where other speakers include. We had any leads they were meant to be on the panel to Fanta speaking. They pulled out so you know I want people to talk about. I don't mind people scrutinize our ideas terrorist apiece. I'm golden happy to do so. I'm more than happy to be subjected to to uprootal sort but what I will not accept. Is that students on University University. Campuses must feel they have to digitize false narratives in order to gain the oversize vitamin K. Quite frankly if we have no support on university campus. I don't care if anti Semitism is rather. I don't care juice. Think about us. I can we juice juice to antisemitism is always existed. It always will exist of a pessimist but I believe that we should be wide. What's outside the bus because we all and if we are people that disrespects ourselves accepts at free foods force narrative made against us and who always a people? And how do we fight this. How To be five hundred Smith back to the artists to to clarify define what you're is the organization that said Kaddish? The morning prayer had promoted a cut ish one of its former campus campus director showed Promoted cottage for Maas. Oh sure he attended by calm but the debt Hamas terrorists I mean questioned must be but they've had a cottage for Himmler Dallas. The yes still. I mean the number of times I've been no platforms on university campuses. This is extraordinarily I. Let's Exter- K. and say that it's fundamental named extra Jewish Societies. Society are raising money for Islamic Relief. A charity the indirectly gives money to come us but they wouldn't have me on campus episode because they regard mind Zionism to be too extreme. Even though I'm committed to ensuring that every civilian Israel regardless of nationality not race religion is protected given the same civil rights to everyone else. I regard extremists. These Jason Activity rate this Jaso his activity activity raising money for charity. Indirectly gives Logan is ation prescribed medication. This committed in relation of Israel and other example NAUSEAM JAS so I had some really nasty anti Semitism campus lately. The Hat Chris Williamson come to campus. But they will not purpose because they believed we must show we that they believe. Jews must take more Mike Rounds and the best ways my anti Semitism is again to elevate ourselves into and to enter won't to gain the approval of anti see. IDC my it's always hate us. What's essential is that? They hate US strong. They don't notice week. I'd much because it's exactly what they want. They want us to be talking about force notion of an occupation want us to be bashing Israel every opportunity chintzy because that's their that's their that's their means of that for the past week Condo into that trap so as a result I'm I guess people perceive me to be a kind of pariah in a sense because I do believe that Roth's and accepting the myths which I believe historically Anti Anti Semites always formulate a series as the backbone of their antisemitism. I believe the best. What we must do is destroy? Destroy the mix all as I said the backbone of the Anti Semitism otherwise the Anti Sandwich of your of it more fuel. Hurry sorry. This is A prospectus really feel future. We've seems to me incompatible with living in Brittany Olsen I presume it's You will be making on the Israel at the end of your studies for soon. So I I'm I'm kind of I. G studying The book to be. I hope to go soon as possible. I don't wish to standardize. I'd I don't believe I believe. The situation is mutual. I believe in Corbin goes. Kuban is the lives of demographics off just on our side and you know I. I don't believe the future is in the dust route. My principal objective isn't isn't with non-jews. My principal objective is to bring Jews is close to Zionism. Apathy is my greatest concern. I'm not both by cheesy. Might say but I am but not to the extent that both by Giuseppe Zionism is Is the movement aspect say that it was empowered us and I read. Upsets me for straights may choose to constantly feel the need to appease it's the or legitimize the I guess the by two peration designed subjected to I I I totally believe that should be joined now knowing. See like you when you go your whole identity and political viewpoint. We'll be changed just by the media in which you mix. You will no longer be a swinger against antisemitism what will will be as an Israeli citizen. I mean you won't be on campus in Peta Tikva so telling it to the point down and be and it gets again as honesty. Won't be on dancing there. John well lets you know that. That's comforting seriousness down. You won't be you know on the you use this word because it's the wrong word but on the only extremes of Jewish thinking because you'll be poor of this Jewish media what Kinda plus me being as as little it'll change your view overlook my Jovan the Diaspora. It's Bert surroundings. I don't care about who is is in power and its route. I might have my personal views but my job is my job in the east to support Israel unapologetically unconditionally regardless of who is empowered. Israel's American Merritt government which is possible that I support is still split. Israel has a government of Israel regardless of who is empower. My job is to be a supporter and defenders row against the malicious lies. It is accused of when I am in Israel which is inevitable I went and see. Bob Aspire I aspire to become an academic of I believe that the mistrial but then Israel I. There are many changes that I wanted to make in terms of I represent the negative. Trump didn't ski. I want to bring Zionist closer. To Israelis spent anti meat to in terms of. I think one of the things were as if I'm being on strike. It's ready to society is that I always raiders not so Zionists Thornton philosophy and I I want to bring his right is closer to Zionist Jewish thought of to make sure Zionism awesome still has a future and Israeli society. Don't Zionism to be an IT. Obsolete shoplifting spoke with the idea of great designers designers my two phases firstly absorbed Jewish state. And then bring Jews closer to the spiritual on the concept design. Is that the centrality of Zionism and identity identify. I think Israel is in my opinion just through speaking to them are lacking in in that kind of relationship. I want to bring in. Close some sure. That'd be kind of stickiness. In Israel and the words stick continue to thrive in a predominantly Mizrahi culture in Israel clip. Thank you is what I say Harry. Thank you very much thank you thank you. That's Harry Markham bringing to an end this very impressive double headed edition of Johnny. Gould's Jewish thanks.

Israel Winston Churchill Harry Markham Clementine Churchill Johnny Gould Central Saint Martins College private eye magazine UK Churchill London Savoy Hotel Churchill Mike Rounds Europe Hyatt Regency Churchill Hotel Winston Churchill. David Zoom Rochman Churchhill Liberal Democrats
04-02-19 Postgame Podcast - LA Kings vs Flames

All The Kings Men

56:01 min | 1 year ago

04-02-19 Postgame Podcast - LA Kings vs Flames

"Kovalchuk turns up the wing drop pass to Clifford clever. Double digits put attornal. This is an all the king's men post game podcast. Hope Petar fakes circles looks per target dowdy past these scores. Now, here's your host. Jesse Cohen just when I thought it was okay with whatever happened in the remaining games of the season. The king served up another Pearl clutter Carlin bathe Dave Joseph and Dennis Bernstein. And Dave Pegg NADA from the fourth period. Join me after the game to talk about the emotional state of the LA kings following yet. Another blow out at Staples Center. Never miss an episode by subscribing today subscription links and recent episodes can be found at LA kings dot com slash podcast. We're here high above the ice in the Bob Miller press boxes, Staples Center, joining me tonight, Carlin bathe. How're you doing tonight? Carla. I'm okay, Dave Joseph. Dave, also, okay and my personal nemesis. Dennis bernstein. How're you doing? Jess, thanks for having me on tonight. I'm ready. Let's go and special special guest. Dave Agneta exactly for very, yes. Thank you. Yeah. Good to be part of this came here for the weather got a little bit of hockey. But not really. So the plan was to spend most of this episode talking about what a joy, it's been watching on shake hope Petar for thousand games. My memories of that draft where Bobby Ryan wound up going to the ducks. And we got some kid from some country. I'd never heard of the special moments between Dave Taylor and Dustin Brown at center ice for the pre game ceremonies. Awesome. And then that game happened. We kinda God talk about that game. Yeah. I think we do. Because last episode as Dave knows I said that I'd essentially come to peace with this season. And that sorta didn't care about most of the drama, like, frankly, the culture thing at this point. I'm kind of bored with those four games left. They're gonna they're gonna plan were they won't write it doesn't like what he played them. Yeah. And they played. I'm so fine and get a point. Yeah. That's right. And I don't even know how many minutes it was. I can't imagine it was that many. But let's talk. Is this team falling apart in ways that might drip into next season? Dave, no, okay. Good. I think this season is kind of a wash at this point. Right. I would say it's play out the string. And then reboot and get ready for September that first of all get ready for the draft law fable night, April nine and then get ready for the draft seven days after that. And then reboot in September. I'm not putting any stock into what we saw tonight or what happens for the remainder. So the only reason I ask it that way is quick it's cold. You start seeing on Twitter people saying that he didn't even approach the bench during the second period during TV timeouts and things like that he stayed in his crease he had to apparently be escorted by teammates the to the bench at the end of the second period. We know that he's had incidents of emotional outbursts towards the the coaching staff in previous games his feelings were captured on air on the Calgary. Feed. Is he the doughty quotes after the game where he says, honestly, I wanted just play these four games back to back. I want this to be over who's a shot of Brown in the in the penalty box late in the third period where he just looked. Like, Don life had been taken out of them Carlin. What was the what was the mood in the tunnels late in the third period that looked icy? Well, as a reporter what I can report on what everyone else can see. So where I am in my room. If you can hear it or see it from where you are or where you're watching at home. I can say it. I think you could see the emotion on his face before he hit the tunnel. I think in some areas you can hear on a certain Canadian broadcasters, a clip it was intense. And that's that's all I will say from where I was sitting. But that is a very, you know, unhappy situation for him to be in. And he was very unhappy in that moment, and you could see it when he walked off of the ice desert. Chances are totally different the position of the teams totally different the point of the players careers, totally different. But Dennis to this remind you at all like the the Patrick wa moment in Montreal. No because I don't expect this coach to be coaching. So I think that but just with the spectacle. Let's write this off. And this to a point the the flip side of that the negative part of this is that there are players whose ever going to be here next year this off season they have to look in the mirror hard and reexamined what they need to do to get back to their game. Like Atari to at Jeff Carter's here will have quick was there are players here that have really underperformed, and they have to take a long long, look and rededicate themselves. So that's it. Now, a new coach who was a legitimate coach shoe will structure this team better. They assume they can't play worse than this season. I'm assuming better things they'll be injection of talent. But the core players that are here really need to rededicate themselves. So I agree that you went to write these suits. And tonight was bad. It was betting that because they went through emotion chest because I looked at the other bench. And I saw Gino not there and could Chuck not there and they played five starters at set who would be normally playing in an important game to get dominated like that in the third period. And basically not give an effort. It goes to what the coaches and goes to the relationship of players to coach. But once that smoke is cleared, and you have a new coach in place, and you have different players in place. The core players really need rededicate themselves because they have some of these guys on this team have not gifted they they've robbed the fans, and I think the organization of and that's what they have three exploring the ABC's. There's I saw somebody ask you, you know, how confident you in the may for that quick was still laugh at you first round pick. We talked last episode about when the next, you know, Jack Jabotinsky wanted to know who's in net when the team finally reaches contention, again Mirus Monse was it depends on what the market for quick is in the offseason because there's no market for him. Will John quick starting next year? I don't think he could do that. I think that he has to move on regardless of return at this point. I think at this point in time and US question about a first round pick. I think the beginning season, you got that they halfway through your workout it. But now he's sitting. On an eight save percentage. And you've wrote opposing jamming say I'm going to give you a first-round pick for these districts, even though he's a I think slow clutch goaltender postseason certainly team in front of him as abandoned him. But I think at this point in time you look in a second pick you need to turn a page us like Johnston, great. He's a legend his banner is number up to the rafters when he retires. They don't want championships without him. But it's time to turn the page and Jack Scott one more years contract in tax twenty seven just you know, we're talking about Jack cable twenty five and calpeda San subjects twenty-seven cows twenty-five, these not nineteen this is not caught her heart here. That's the other issue that John started to thirty three. I just think that that. When you watch Jonathan you watch his reactions to control your emotions, even if you don't like the coach like you can't have you can't have that incident when he was screaming at on what he didn't challenge the Golan Calgary. You can't have those things happen, right? So I think it's time to turn the page. You get what you can get form at the draft table and you move to Jackson. Into calpeda something because I think this this generation of kings as great as it was. And and we got reinforced tonight. Why by the presentation of Dustin Brown with Kobe raising stick for the thousand? But this this twenty four team has gone Jess. And I think you really need to move on from these guys including John quick because you have to capable goaltenders. I think you watch Jack Campbell play to have any reason that that Jack can't play fifty or fifty five games next season and be the guy that maybe califor- the following year. Yeah. I just think that it's time to turn the page on some of these veterans and and start new with the new with basically a different corner. And you've got another goal tender in Matthew Alta, who's playing for the greyhounds who is not ready next year by no means not saying that. But in a few seasons from up here. Right. There's some goaltending. It's not like it was ten or fifteen years ago when there were no goaltenders in the pipeline. You're saying what's going to happen now and they draft Jonathan Bernier. And then Jonathan quick comes out of nowhere. It's not that situation on Barry brust, right? Correct. You have Legrand goaltenders here had a tough season in the statistics are on great in in interior. The team is. That good. But I think you have to competent goaltenders athletic tenders who don't get hurt dental thing with John John gets hurt a lot now. So I just think at this point in time you need to wave the flag on on the the core. That was here you some guys you can move other guys won't. But I do get a decent Diffa. Jonathan quick. I think you move on and get the asset. It feels like Calgary has been. One of the most successful antagonists of the kings going back. Four years was four years of the kings missed and Calgary made in fourteen fifteen I guess I was forced ago. And it seemed like every big game down the stretch Calgary would win every game kings would lose. And then you had the, you know, obviously, Matthew Chuck endowed. He started up and Dave on the ice level that it feel like Calgary was in our heads in this one. I mean, obviously, they we beat them last time. But no, no, no it felt like it was completely disjointed from from even from the warm up. It was and it didn't help the Calgary scratch five their players. Maybe could shook his in the lineup. There's a little bit more heat in this game tonight. But I didn't feel any of that tonight. It felt like they were just kind of going through the motions from from the start. Not say that the effort wasn't there. But certainly didn't show up on the scoreboard tonight. I didn't I didn't feel like there was any heat or emotion going into this game. At all. I think it was the second goal. The Calgary scored there were so many of them it's hard to track. But there was a there was a player. I don't think it's useful to single out which player but certain player watched the zone entry drifted back to the you know near the net. Then watched the play evolve behind the net. And then watched it going never raise the stick never reached out never attempted to stop the player break anything up. And then look Matt ROY we all met, ROY. But he gave up the puck in the corner. Thirteen seconds into the third period, not entirely sure what quick was was to do on that one. But I suppose he could have saved the day or something now. I advocate fast. I missed two of the goals because when calorie scored their fifth, I said, all right. Well, I'm gonna go to the bathroom and grab a drink in three minutes that I was done. Well, you missed two gold. And I got a text from my father who asked legitimately if he if I thought quick had deliberately let the last one in. And I said, I don't even know, but I don't, but I I wouldn't bet my life on what his. Here's the thing though. A lot of playing defense is effort. Yeah. Right. It's effort like penalty killers effort down defensive effort when you don't get effort. You get seven to against a team that's had five guys. That's what happened tonight and the other thing, and I know you don't want to call players skies. Cisco checks the other thing I wanted to. Here's a stunning statistic. Jess that I looked at Amazon graphic when they were when you were interviewing drew after the game. Do doughty has no even strength goals this year Amish. He believe that seven goals. Seven has no even strength does this year. So you talk about a player who's getting ten million dollars signing more on July one and you need to rededicate your game and look member twos. Not necess- over here. When Kobe tar has none of the power play, right or one. And that that's the that's the issue poll question. No ju- daddy. No even strength goals. I mean, you so you talk about recommitment to the entire organization, and especially Jew because he's going to be the highest paid power next year. It's got ten mil downsizing bonus on July one he has to be the best player next year. Just without question. You can talk about corporate all you want Brown. He has to be the best player. He has to lead a charge. I know people don't like plus monitors. But when you sit in the minus thirty Jess, I mean, really this this that should never approach that number with that player. He's to skill these two. And he's really he's the guy if I'm looking at the team that really needs to retain his game. I understand what's the circumstance of the team. But when I like that no of in strength goals, a minus thirty most of the second half of the season. That's not acceptable him when I would draw comparison you into nNcholas room, and you look at Nick nNcholas rooms, plus minus over his career and forget the number finish up. But it's plus something on God. We wouldn't even believe it. And you would I would think you would go back and nNcholas career and you'd never find. A minus thirty right ever, not only that. But think about the season like anecdotally, forgetful, the plus Marcin, I know there are geeks out. They don't like the number. I get understand that give me the games where he was affected. I there's too many games where he was just pedestrian out there going through the motions. And I get these games were meaningless. But he's he's the emotional leader of this team. He's the guy yelling and screaming. Banging stick on and to go through these games and saying, you know, what did you do tonight? I'm looking into styling. Okay. Play twenty seven minutes. What did he do that? They move the needle to me. That's my biggest conservatives he tried to control his gall. He did have an assist. Well, so well that was stopped by Johnny Glenn, reduce let me introduce the sandwich of this. You're going to have to end it out. Not I don't the only thing I headed out is a curse words turn into fun. Qatar courts. But so a few weeks ago. I introduced the notion of the difference between pilots passengers and goof is's COCOM, that's great as far as player types typical Jesse. So I'm going to introduce a second tier now. Okay. So it's a totally different scale. And that's your personality type, whether you're quiet and reserved like a dozen Brown. Right. You know, the lead, by example, kinda guy or whether you're a drew doughty vocal emotional, right? There's tons of clips on YouTube devoted to his laughter and his hips, and his, you know, trash talk joiners exact all right? So the question is is the chicken bird doesn't matter. How many times I see that clip? I straight. Tara for doesn't know that the chickens birds, but anyway, it has wings. So the question is if your best player funniest guy in the unemotional goofs. Can can your team survi- like if how many guys does it take to to balance that out, right? Like, how many Jarrett Stolz, Matt greens? And and and rob ski Derry's. Does it take to rain in a guy who's incredibly emotional as yes Carl? I think it's a coach. It's I think he I think he he's a very coach -able player very very cultural player. Like, look what he did. During those two championship runs under under that coaching rain. It's it's the coach is not any other teammates responsibility. It also falls on drew more than it does the coach, but he loves to coach you can tell he feeds off of somebody who understands the game understands his nuances of the game. He talked about how oh my gosh. I'm blanking. Our last coach, it would respect just those John Stevens would respect the way that he defended. And would remind him about it and the little the little things that he would do and the plays that maybe no one else would notice but would stand out. He would remind him drew needs that again, and I feel like he can have his guses moments is goofy. What was that goofy gophers moments and show his passion? But also be under a trusting leadership here. I think he's just lost a little bit of the trust. Maybe keep in mind. None of the coaches behind the king's bench or defenseman have ever played defense. Right. So I don't know if that means anything. But if you're looking for someone to kind of take the reins and lead, by example, or here's what I did. Or this is what worked for me when I played his in have that. Now, you've got a bunch of guys behind the bench who played forward. You know, what I mean, there's there's own to say, this is the way it's done. This is what you need to learn from. And I think that's part of it. I mean to Dennis's point like we us when when I felt like doughty made a difference. I came right? He phrased it, but but when he influenced the game or whatever, right. I mean, my feel on his season is that for the first. Twenty five games. He was almost trying too hard. There's a stretch of ten games agrees. They like trying to too much. Yeah. Air. Yeah. And then I feel like as soon as that stretch ended. It wasn't just him. But that's when all of a sudden the conversations really started being whereas the effort, whereas the consistency. Where's the focus etcetera on in throughout the lineup? And so that's where the pilot passenger goof is thing comes in. Where you go. Like if the team doesn't have any pilots or if it's got one or two right, obviously, everybody loves us in Brown. And he's you know thrown into tremendous season and Kyle with doing everything the Paul Clifford can possibly do. But if you don't have anybody in the room who can who can channel that energy. Then you have you know, the, quote that we got tonight, which is I just want this to be over. I'm tired of it. But the other thing that I've noticed that has a bit of an outsider from the king side of things is if you're doughty and you're seeing guys like Jonathan quick. The outbursts. If you're seeing other guys that aren't as influential as they have been in the past. It's almost an acceptance. Right. Easing permission for him to to go through those motions without being held accountable. And it's a combination of, you know, not having as many of the guys like greener, install and those guys in the room as well as the guys behind the bench. I think it's I think it's a it's it's almost a perfect storm that that is surrounding drew doughty from the most negative possible way that he could go through a season. And it's allowing that I don't know if you guys have been have been seeing some of that throughout the course of the season. But it's almost as if he's he's noticing what other guys are doing. And it's allowing him the excuse to go through his motions. I mean, part of the reason I wanted to address this game. Even though the original plan was was not to. Was the during the first period there were moments, especially on the the Brown goal were. They looked like the team that we all remember and love, you know, they were passing. I haven't seen too passes that long connect to a goal in the season or to and the couple took drop has the Clifford was it was great. Yeah. And I mean, they they thought they looked pretty good, right? E- not surprised that they get down early in a game against Calgary. This point in the season. No matter how many guys are benched, but they fight back. It's too. They're looking good. They seem to be excited. And then it turns into another islanders game. Where all of a sudden it just falls completely apart. And even though there are only so many games left on the schedule. I had kind of I guess I got tricked by the winds again road. Yeah. The well and beating Chicago, and you know, in Santa's jobs, I know, but but you put four six of those together over a two week period. And no matter how bad like eight and two or something. Like there's been some good efforts. And some resiliency in some good offense. Actually, they've been better offense only, but back to Jerusalem me thirty years old now and his the other. This is why Justice is such a critical off season. The next five to seven years for this organization is going to be determined. What happens this off season like juice thirty years old? And the problem is, and you mentioned stolen. You mentioned Willie Mitchell missing just we haven't wanna mention macaroni like this team is going to be younger next year. Now that leadership that he needs to close ranks with isn't going to be around to support him. So and I've always written. I don't want to extinguish his his fire that far he needs to win and compete. I get that. But sometimes he's got a drawback and be cool. He's got he's not cool. You gotta be cool. Sometimes when when we used our at composed exactly so when you don't so you know, when you gotta roughing penalty, and calculate you don't feel you're sticking strength. Right. So that that's the part that I assume this is going to be an established coach who's coaching NHL next time. I. He he's got. That's the first guy. He's got to sit down with. So it's going to be difficult for if he doesn't and I'm not gonna seem a tour, but he needs to have a different type of leadership next year. And you know, you look at the other guy who was the ends to even you know, there's no leadership there to be Frank. I saw some of that from drew though when we were talking about maybe he was trying too hard at the beginning of the season. He listens to writers. And knows that, you know, people are saying stuff like that or whatever. So I think he became aware of that. And then turned it into like, a, okay, I'm going to turn this leadership and do like real real leadership type of role, and I feel like we saw that from him for more. I was sitting at least on the bench like you could hear him coaching through a power play or trying to be like say things when people were passing through the neutral zone, like his one of the most vocal people until they all realize the position that they were in and where they were in the standings. And we're how they weren't coming back such I feel like he does have that in him. He just needs the right environment. Women. I don't remember who said it, but but after the quick explosion after getting pulled somebody's responses. Well, you know, he cares right at the very least. Right. You know, you've got one guy on the roster that that it is embarrassing cares. Doesn't like we spent twenty minutes. Discussing my concerns about the team. Let's try and address some of the positives. Or or the thing that I'm actually now completely fascinated by which is the power play. I saw them do the one three one again. I I love it. I'm sorry. I can't help it. Although they do do this weird thing where Carter like you mentioned does drop down. Then they put two guys and the end in the wingers sort of drift back, and he does become sort of modified umbrella almost like they're running two forms, and then they'll just talk shift. Yeah. And then we'll get right back to the one zero one Carlin at FDU. Do they talk about do you see a notice it or am? I just weirdly obsessed with this thing that almost never happens during the game. I think noticing anything it's talked about they're always trying to work on it. You know what I mean? Like, I I don't know. I place just to Mr.. It's like mysteries. I feel like of among other things of the season. But no, I I don't know. It's it's noticed. Yeah. Yeah. Do you love it? I don't know they were over three tonight. So I can't love it. Too much. I'm not concerned with the you're not don't trouble with details matter if it worked it was still cool all the goals for even strengthening. So what does everyone every goals seven even strength goals? Jesse who's missing from the power play though, the last seven or eight games, according to David Celia culture, but I saw him out there and he took one shot. There's. One. There's another player missing from the first unit. Power play. Well, let me see I saw the unit out there that I saw was calling the you're gonna okay, I'll give you know. No, no. He was the first the second unit six or seven games. Emo T. Let me give you hint. Not now. Number fourteen. Apper body Prenton lives. Brennan likes funny. He hasn't been on the power play. I wouldn't say he's missing it. Bob. Well, office based jokes. He's not stationed in front of Neta five seventy nine sixty pounds stationed anywhere. Exactly. So maybe has something to do with it. Maybe there's always me players on the power plants. They'd have to Carlin. So Brendan Leipzig. I will. I will not all right guys. He's not. He's not here. We're zone insured. But now, he no he's it's a he's not on the power play in the power play got better because he's night. Oh because he's not. Okay. Probably better player said, okay. Let's talk about on with her. Okay. Because gays impressive. The year that he was drafted two thousand five. Yeah. Which was the weird draft because of the lockout. Yes, where they took what every teams record over the previous five seasons or something like that average it out xenografts way. And I remember that year. I tweet about his early Bobby Ryan goes to the docks. Jack Johnson goes to the hurricanes. I don't remember any Ben while Julio's in their forget who Columbus took. But. Oh. Doesn't matter. Does it not as good as co Petar but Slovenian player ever? Absolutely. But if you go back and look at the stats is the second leading scorer behind Crosby. He's the first guy to reach a thousand games in that draft class. Jack Johnson came and went through L A Bobby Ryan despite multiple promises from your buddy there at Dennis never never played in LA. Close. Yeah. I'm very close. But nocco Elliott Jason exactly if it was if this were baseball he played in Allen carrying thrice was the fifth overall pick there. Yeah. But who did Columbus? That was it. That was and then jacks Gillian Bevan Suda Gucci. Yeah. I even Jacksonville his mom. Doesn't know. Jack skill is. Former blackhawks. But Carlin you've been here for the breadth of Kobe tires career has been to watch him go from a fresh faced kid from a country. Nobody ever heard of to the captain of the king's. It's no offense to our Slovenia loners. I'm we all love Slovenia. It's beautiful. Exactly it we love it. Eventually this. Check it out on the Mediterranean is Italy. I it's been an amazing time I've been in and around the kings since two thousand eight and it's honestly insane. It's insane. Because he's literally grown up in front of all of our is from the bleach blonde weird hair to the gentleman that he is now, and we talked about this. I interviewed him for the broadcast today for pre game. And I was like you became a two time champion you became a husband. You became a father like literally everything in front of our eyes. I think that's the most impressive part and a leader. You know, it's a thousand games is insane to even play one game in the National Hockey League is a miracle for anyone and to have that kind of longevity and the I don't know all those accomplishments like in his career. It's it's pretty awesome to time Selke, lady, Bing heart. Nominee like, it's just it's literally my puckering and for one team, and he owns the inaugural champion of the March madness competition glue away. Takedown still try you can't they had the pleasure of calling every one of his home goals since he's it's heart one two thousand thirteen. Yeah. I've seen every one of his home games here. Every I've missed a home game since he's been here. Yes. It's it doesn't matter. Like if his first game in league hadn't happened. It wouldn't have changed anything about his career. But for those of us who. Believe in hockey gods or magic or legacy or or any of those things the fact that he came out and scored that goal in his first game against you care. Beats prong rights gays around prong highlight reel Easter gear. And then now and then never defense. Yes. Right. And then that's it. Right. Never looks back thousand games later. Like, you said Tuesday only coverings to Selke trophies though, the whole rigmarole on he'll have a death, right? He'll have a he'll have is jersey retired. Are they gonna do statues for individuals statues for the guys are now, I would think so even though they've already got a fifty then I mean, that's a weird one. But well, that's true. That's true. Can you tell me what number four before? He wore eleven no. Trivia question. There was like a fifty seven or something. It was in the fifties. Yeah. Fifty eight fifty two oh Gopi were fifty one where Mario a regular season species? Yeah. Strange hut. Yeah. Trivia question fan. I like that didn't house where eleven let's see if Denis can get the one I asked you last time. Oh, who who are the two players drafted deepest in the draft to have thousand career points. Oh steepest in the draft. Yeah. Go wade. That's right. Luc robitaille. Yeah. He's second. Second going to get the second draft at one seventy one overall. Henrik zetterberg. No. But that is that was my first gas was Edinburgh and data. But as neither of them. See the one can't get the ones. Dave taylor. Really? Yeah. Fifteenth round draft. Even have anymore. There were no teams back then. Three guys deepen the new round. But. Impressive that. That's right. So what do we got here while we're half an hour in? And I I don't know. I'm about where I was. I thought where I thought we were going to be the beginning of this. Which is like what he does say how great was it to see Dave Taylor. And there was a really nice moment. Really nice. I mean for a guy who played his entire career here eleven hundred and eleven games. And then the Siyam come out in jersey congratulate Dustin on passing his record is incredible. And let's be real those two banners that are up here. But that's a do with Dave Taylor that sure us. And it showed us what the Daryl here did. But when you look go back in Albury in scouting, right? You know, they picked COPA Tony pick Brown. They got John quicken the third round. Yeah. So I'm glad to your point. I'm glad he was out there in the kings jersey to help honor Dustin. It's pretty certain dip. It is that he was here tonight to on COPA tires one thousand game because he was part of bringing him over here. Although there's a kid from Slovenia that I'm told we should look at gonna kinda pull the curtain back a little it was actually Jesse. When Nick said today, you know, Dave Joseph backyard staple center again like so good to see you back here Taylor they've tailored. Sorry. I was looking right at you. So today. But they've Taylor. Yeah. But that's kind of my point is that I see Dave Taylor sable center. All but not like. They make it sound as if it works for the Saint Louis, I let it be let us make that clear. So he's risen to be. Yeah. But not not in that. Everytime. We post a schedule St Louis at St. say pull the curtain back a little bit just a little behind the same thing. So now, I have one of my dumb questions, and I'll start with you. Okay. The talk. Now is that even if the kings don't win the first overall pick. There's no attempts to drag trade up to get it. My my official position is on a like it because let's say they wind up winning the fourth picker the third pick in order to trade up to the first they're going to have to presumably give up that pick. And no teams just gonna swap I for third. So you're going to have to give them something to make it worth their time. But whatever that is it's going to have value. I think to us dent just in general, right? Otherwise wouldn't convince the team to make the trait. Right. So let's say caller, let's say Ottawa wins the first overall pick Colorado gets it. Because of the trade. Let's say Colorado makes the playoffs. They get dummied. In the first round Varlamov says Amata here, I'm not resigning. Here's and now they need to goalie and the king say, all right? We'll give you the, you know, the third overall pick an Jonathan quick to give us the number one pick John mcquade has some trade value. Yeah. Maybe not what we once. A lotta was. But but presumably there would be number ones on value to convince that team to make that trade him. Just zyppah that my point is are we so sure the Jackie's is worth. Whatever you could get in the third overall pick. And what it's gonna take to sweeten the pot to make that move. Or are we being seduced by name? And I'll use the Lindros trade is an example. Right. Like, you can like Lindros his career in Philadelphia all you want. But that trade handed Tuesday on the cups to the Quebec Nordiques, right? It was a massive trade. Yeah. Beautiful Westberg, Mike reach. I mean. Yeah. Sure. So my question is, but it wouldn't be that type of trae. But go ahead. No. I grant you that. But would you make the trade? Or would you rather just have the third and use your assets to acquire more pieces and a psychopath? GM of the team. I love to gamble on the Edmonton Oilers of dined out on psychopaths GM's for decades. So you're guy. This whole time we wanna pull back the curtain, but I feel like I would do the the crazy move and take the gamble and go for it. Like, I'm putting all my chips on the table. I'm that type of person impulsive like personally. I don't think it's that crazy because we were just talking about the value. Dennis was kind of going on about what does Jonathan quick per present to us essentially right now or in the next few years, and if that is true, then why not pull the trigger? Whatever you whatever you use to convince the team to make the trade is gonna have I like going crazy. I would I would. But then you're also taking a gamble on Jack Hughes big time because I've have we heard like is is it conflicting reports on him. What not from what I've heard now. It's all number one conflicting report is that EDEM places have Kako ahead of him this, right? That's what I'm like. It's not all what does the number two pick. Yeah. Jack uses the number is in question. Number two, those top to right. Course. I'm just saying like is it like one hundred percent like for like, I don't know. You know, Dave, well, building off Dennis said, I I would think that if you can move. One asset or several assets. Which may that may be what it takes in order to get that number one will be. I mean, you're not going to do a one for one swap, right? But I mean, if you have to include several players from the current roster if it's anyone other than your youth who you're building with or a copay tar Brown. But what if it has what of it wrecks, whatever it takes coupo- and the fourth overall to get the number one overall. All right. Yeah. I'm not. So sure. So here's the thing. I'm not so sure sure on that. And and so he's a thing. Big picture. I would not be shocked. They went all in and try to get the first overall pick. If they don't when the first overall pick the Jackie's, they love Jackie's, right? That's the point they want. Now, the pens on a lot of things just if they don't win. How far they fall right now to two they could fall to the five five to one is a much better bigger tax than two to one that doesn't. I'm yet to on Luda one, right? Is a smaller tax short and depends on the team that wins it if it's not cholera. It's another team. Who could be be at literally any it could be anybody. Right. That maybe is set at center, and they would take tack. Oh, right. And then so you have to understand who's that number one pick and how far they fall. But I would not be shocked. Rob went in and said, what's it gonna take to get the the first overall pick? Now, if you know that Kako is going to go first, and you can move the second and get that picking Jack used second. Yeah. But I don't think we're under. Wedding jackie's. I understand he means he's not conic David and he's not Austin Matthys. But he might be better Patrick Kane. And how do you pass up on that? Because here's the thing. If you had the choice, and you pick tackle. And I know there are fans after that one cat gone Caparo fins together plane. I Greta everything's wonderful in the world. Right. If you if you pass on the next Patrick Kane like how's that gonna look through four years from now you can't afford that? Because if they did and ingest if they get the first overall pick they have to pick Jack use the data not allow that to happen. I think they'd like him that much that they would be considering that they may go all in couple some assets and say, we need Jackie's 'cause then you go COPA. Tar use Anderson Dolan. You can move the party of the middle. If alaready if we all hope and pray to nine AM Novia he comes back. He kept going in the middle. I think that's again that's going back to the Limbaugh. And where do you build from you build from the middle? And so I think that they might explore either. They got the five getting to the one or the tool wherever that position is go get Jackie's. My only counter would be the way that you live down passing up on the next. Patrick Kane is win. And if winning for me, I I would just rather hold onto as many assets as possible like if in two thousand. Right. Well, here's my counterpart. Like, let's say let's say in two thousand eight the kings gotten the third overall pick up in the second. And so they wouldn't have gotten doubted second. And they said, okay, we'll trade you Dustin Brown and the third overall pick for Steven stamkos does this team win a Stanley Cup. Like, I don't think. So. No. So I mean, that's my fear. Is that is that they'll be giving up a valuable piece in order to get. Okay. A guy that maybe isn't as everybody says, it's using Kako. And then nobody. But last year, I didn't hear anybody saying, I think it's probably dealing cousin or the Byrom. I never favor. Yeah. Pick up the fence minute three. But by the way, his every draft. There's oh it's this guy in that guy. Nobody else. And then there's somebody taken in the late first round second round or a guy taken in the sixth round like there's guy. Yeah. So your point is I don't want to give up assets. But I a my point back to you is who's untouchable on these on his team. Nobody right is razzmatazz Copari untouchable. They get. Jack. No. But my argument would be neater as Jack Hughes. I think the front office might have different. I'd I'm sure they do. That's all I'm saying to you that you're not look copay Tarin and Baudi going nowhere. They wouldn't be in that the but anybody else you have to look at long if they like him that much. I would explore any other move. You could use your the lease Jap pick the first round pick. And and frankly, I'd be fine with that. If it was was just we'll give you our our fifth on the seventeenth or whatever it is. For the first then. Yeah. Okay. I'm not saying, even if it's even if like, let's say the one fifth, and the trade is the fifth and velocity for the first overall great. But if it is a Lindros deal, that's my fear, and obviously because that'll be I don't think that you don't do that anymore inning salary and stuff like that. But and that's why I know. But if it's something if it's three guys, for example, my point is that I would not be surprised at this team went all in wind up securing Jackie's if it came to the point we're sitting in Vancouver on the twenty first of June, and they announced his name or in the trade or something like that. It wouldn't shock me at all hope Jackie's is the next Patrick Kane. You don't think that they would move assets from the current roster in order to make that happen? I think they would explore a lot of different things. I I don't think it only futures the pen. It depends on the team and the needs are Dave. It's right it it's a star player. You're getting you're getting a potential superstar player that's already deemed to star player to automatically jump into the NHL next season. So that's how you have to value it right off the bat all thirty one teams in the National Hockey League view him as NHL caliber ready called her contender for next season in Jack us, so that's that. That's what you're buying anything beyond that is gravy. And what you're giving up if if it blows up in your face, and it's an Alex day, you know, situation a nail Yacob situation. The, you know, the all hope that's not the case, and it certainly isn't trending in that direction. But that that's the price that that's the price you give out and it's Los Angeles and you like stars. And just last time I checked if you watch that Vancouver game his brother skating around the ice. And it's pretty good at this guy's better. And he's better than his brother, his, brother. Right. That's so so that's my point is that I I could see. A circumstance where Jackie's could be here next season. And that's all liquid. Look what earliest Pederson has done Vancouver. That's my point. He was the fifth overall pick. That's what I was saying where I was like is he like the have to be. I know actually we're talking. We're talking about a number one overall looking at how good Pederson is who was taken fifth, right? So Jackie is is probably going to be a better player on my wrong. I'm gonna give you a homework assignment. Go home and watch the videos of Jackie's with the development. Of course, he's I'm saying, of course, we get if we get any dominant. Yeah. Against a bunch of eighteen year olds in the development program. Okay. You're going to get a great none going to get a good player. And let me let me be real clear about this. I'm not saying Jackie's isn't good. I'm just saying it's all somewhat of a crap shoot with eighteen year olds playing against other eighteen year olds. I'm just saying there's somewhere we're not mad about one through five well somewhere, there's a spectrum of value that you wouldn't give up. Let's do apply your value. Just what your overpayment to go to one or two to get Jackie. And you and you're taking doughty in Copenhagen say exactly what you said. Which is depends on the team into depends on the but team and their needs. For example. I would be if it's a player that you already know that you wanna get rid of right? Like, let's say it's in your case. Jonathan quick I'm not saying you're saying, okay, right. If it is the scenario that I laid out and that is Colorado and Varlamov Sheldon the playoffs and he moves on. And they say we wanna goalie, and blah, blah, blah and the package is honestly, let's say the kings wind up with fifth and its fifth and quick for Hughes. Then in my mind done. Yes. Because the faith in the first wash. And so what you're really doing? Is. You're trading quick for Jackie's. So okay lovely zero problem with that and Toronto spic. No, okay. And the reason no. And k is because there's two costs that you're trading in that scenario. You're trading the cost of the player. Right. You could trade quick and get something else. Correct. Right. There's value in that. But you're also. Trading. So you're there's the opportunity cost of losing quick. But there's also just the the what's the word did decreasing number of prospects in your own pool. Right. Like, I understand the Jack Hughes is a ninety five percent. Sure winner, but he's still ninety five and whoever you take fifth. Overall is eighty seven percent guaranteed and whoever you take with the Toronto pick is eighty three percent guaranteed. Whatever the wine is your turning three opportunities to draft a player into two. And even though you're increasing your odds of getting the next Patrick Kane. You're still giving up a lottery ticket and I'm just never convinced. Unless it's Connor mcdavid or Sidney Crosby. And you look at comic David David is not like Connery. They was lovely. But would you trade three players to get Connor mcdavid? I wouldn't the lottery ticket is next year. I found that's where I would draw the line because this team sends a very good chance of not making the next season right sit because I could say okay, gimme your second. And next year is I know for got us, right? That's that's where I would draw. Maybe. Okay. So he's thinking about it. He's thinking about everybody has a price. That's so the question just as wear is there's and what's too much, and but there is no answer to this. Because we will not I think they'd love your guy. And I think that they would make a substantial trade to get him to get the rights to. And that's why I'm asking this. Because I think it I think you're right. I mean, the Radyr I'll be shocked if they don't. Yeah. If they don't make a bit. We've heard. Multiple people season ticket holders that the front office is giving the seminar Tuesday ticket holders and one of the pitches is Jackie we're going for Jackie's. And although I roll my eyes every time I hear the phrase LA loves the star. I put that in locker right next to Kovalchuk kids love Disneyland of of of things that I just don't care about. But but I even though it doesn't mean anything to me, I can see that. It means something to other people as silly as a phrase ending. Well, as given what we saw on the ice tonight. They really need to start. You know, I know, but but that that impacts Jess because I don't want to cause I'll tell you this LA, and how do they out of the show? There's I want to get the fans of shout here because you know, what the game tonight that meant nothing other than Dustin abounding celebrated and it's a decent. There's still decent crowds. Here pants is still showing up. It's not it's not Florida. It's not it's not zoning hours. Breaking news. Dennis Bernstein, doesn't think copuntries thousand game is worth anything. He stuck. He skated around raise the stick. You can smell. But I know, but at some point a ton is going to be I mean, if you're saying that like, I agree with you that you can really about star players, but you've got gotta get these reasons of fans a reason to show up next season if you're gonna if you committed and said it's going to be enough test seasons next season you got ticket renewals. But you got to create some exciting around this team. That's a surefire way to create excitement. Look look at what the Lakers did. And they've done nothing for how many years now. And they go out, and they they get the best player in the game in the Brown James and what happens season tickets through the roof can't get a ticket to Lakers game. And they don't make the playoffs, but they've got star power. And LeBron James does that not move the needle how many the needle how am I going get LeBron James? That's the reason they went out and got them because they couldn't they couldn't not do it. How many of the sixteen jobs news five? None Jack Huston. This is why I roll my eyes valley loves the star. How many of the sixteen thousand five at the forum were empty during Wayne Gretzky's last season's in LA? But how many were full when he got here. Yeah. But Jackie's ain't Wayne Gretzky like he might be someday. But no, Dave you're up in there. Yeah. The other thing that that factors that factors in here is the addition of Hughes or the number one pick significantly accelerates, your your retool rebuild, whatever you wanna call it that that's that's happening. So instead of drafting third fourth fifth overall, which you know, usually those players are going to take one more season two more seasons before they are full-time players in the national likely it accelerates, your your your growth spurts sparked that you're going through. So if Hughes's their next season and your banking on guys like Campari, or you know, Anderson Dolan, and so on and so on being part of this this retool that's happening. The addition of Jack Hughes allows you to put your paddle put the pedal to the metal a little bit a little bit quicker and build that. Chemistry right off the bat with these younger kids. So that's that's another thing to factor in how much you want to pay for that. And why exhilarated is important is because just let's look at the standings. And look at these teams that are finding for pipe position. And I know there are guys in the room that belief that did not any worse than ours. Ona or Minnesota. I don't think there anyway. So so you get you get that player and accelerates a back, and I grew to then not going to be aggressive in the in the off season free agency as I understand it. But could they bounce back and get eighty five points and being the mix for next season? They absolutely could. And that would accelerate it. So I get it with trying to manage expectations for next season. Say we're going for twenty twenty one. But that again would accelerate it and give more heat around the team. If you're also if you're also ridding yourself of I'll put it in quotes bad apples on the team, doesn't accelerated even more if you can move a couple of pieces that that maybe aren't fitting here so much. Let me jump in aerobic accelerates it on more. And if they got the first roll over ovation traded away because I I'm. I'm afraid of additives Allen. I'm just saying I'm I see to Vars in Toronto. And I see mcdavid in Edmonson, and I see to a lesser degree. What's happening in L A happened in Chicago, right? Where you get these we one or two players, and you think to yourself a ha now, we've got it. We've got it all sorted out. We have this one player, and it doesn't matter. What how many other assets are where they slaughtered in or how much cap space or and I understand that young traffic doesn't affect the cap hit or whatever. But I'm just saying at some point. It's still a team game. And I'd still personally rather have three B players than one a plus player because be players. Maybe they're not as hard to find as a plus players, but they're harder to find than CD players leagues. Chock-full? There's thirty one teams now at you know, Tobias Rieder hasn't scored a goal all season and the team, right, basically. Yeah. Which is goofy. But the point is right there there, you know, guys are bumped off teams, you know, to your point in your point. Right. We've got sure back in Leipzig who are in this league because they couldn't hang with five other teams for them. And now they're on this team. This team's terrible. So they're putting points up say are tons of guys out there. So I have an opportunity to hold onto three players instead of trading them for one crack at an a plus player. You see what Edmonds is doing what their one a plus if I'm Edmonton. And I have it all to. Do over again. Maybe I I mean as as stupid isn't insane. This may sound maybe I do trade the Connor mcdavid for for assets that you know, are are gonna be not. I'm I'm this is I personally I don't really mean that. But here's here's the other thing with a lot of teams, and even even when in two thousand twelve in two thousand fourteen when brownie and copious drew were lot younger they brought in those veteran pieces to be part of it. Same thing with Pittsburgh Penguins. When Sidney Crosby and Malkin were young they brought in Mark wrecking Gary Roberts, and those guys to to to to support them you bring in a guy like Jack Hughes now and the other guys you've got that immediately. You've got cope here. You've got Dustin. You've got drew. You've got the guys that have already one that are still capable of continuing something in a few years once the team gets back on track you can pass that onto the kid right off the bat, you're passing that on right away. Edmonton doesn't have that has Connor mcdavid. And they don't have any other. There. That's one Niagara that my point. You don't have a copay hot again round saying, they should be green. And I'm not saying I'm just saying if the price is other pe- like let's say the price is who pari and an Anderson Dolan, or let's just say, it's Anderson Dolan. Let's say the kings finished fifth and whoever gets the first pick says, we will absolutely not read. What what did you have to draw the line somewhere? And that's my that's my only question is where's that line price? But it's just again, it's a tease and look just you could go back to two June, and may in July, and what hums of the trade for patch ready, and they signed Jeff Skinner we have in the same conversation right now. Doesn't look to my point. And look at if Jackie's turns into experts, you ready in the asking prices design thing like d do it. Well, and I'll go back to the team that eliminated and that that will very close to they lost four one goal games to win the playoffs. They added patch ready to mock stone, and they and me look where they are right now. They could go to Cup. Final game. Aren't they place during third place? But but they're they're better is not crowning me. I wouldn't wanna play I wouldn't wanna play him in the plan. When I love San Jose team shouldn't wanna plan anybody in the players. I'm pointing to the ice for those at home. What I'm saying? It's not that Moore league. H point is that it's not that. Like if used was here. It's not that far leap. It's not enough early. Anyway. No. I look if they do it. Let's say let's about cost. I get it. No, no. If they let's say the cost is ten first round draft picks, and they do it and Jackie is here. And winter driving of the next ten years there. The next day. I will be sitting here talking about what a steel Jack use was and how who cares about future draft picks. You can get a magnet second. And I won't be doing it. 'cause the front office tells me to be doing it because I'm an idiot, and I love the kings, and whatever they do. I instinctively start to talk myself into so. I can't go. Jess, hey, I you know, you bleed black. I of what I am. I can't let's talk about this game again, real quick. Yeah. Carlin play the game. Play the game. It better be from the first period. It has to be. I you've really got to. You go. I I let me marinate go and voted this guy for the national ten. I am not Jack Campbell seek Caughlin. Forget ten goals this season and re do his game that still become an effective player in the NHL that Warren, my heart. I think that was a fantastic I know Cliffe's he's dedicated his game. He's taking a lot of hits a lot of blood on his for this team over the years. The see him get the ten goals at career-high to get double digits. First time his career for me. That was priceless. Yeah. I agree and his coming off the bench and going for type of speed the me just put the jets on like it was great. It made saying the duck suck on the beautiful. Beautiful teddy talks feature. I agree. Clifford? All I'm saying. No, it's not, oh, I'm to say the Brown goal because the passing on that was just spans haven't seen that in a loud, settle king. That's right. So we got Joe. So dave. Do Mike safety. I can't say quick in his Altree. Absolutely. Because I like that emotion that emotion I'm gonna go with that. Let's go with that bad player of the play your of the game. Oh, man. You guys. Ilya Kovalchuk is tennis. I back in the lineup and showing the coaches he can still play at his advanced age. Ilya Kovalchuk gets my vote for player of the game. Yeah. That's I was just gonna say. Yes. Okay. But it doesn't have to be player because taking Mark Jankauskas clinically. Everyone. I know he went out with injury. If that hit on McDermott. Take Curtis mcdiarmid low. That hit hurt. I think Doug. I still trying to get that. I see him when he got hit. Yeah. Ryan back from no. No, he's not coming back for a while. Oh, no. Couldn't get to a knee for about fifteen seconds. Not too late. But it wasn't dirty. It was a freight train. A big guy. Yeah. Dave. Keep your head. When Curtis McDermott is on chest of your head. Oh, oh man player of the game. Clifford why not still be jump on that train? All right. I'll go to I suppose, we should look up. How many minutes he played, but I'm not listening. What does it matter at this? Buddies minutes were pretty well distributed. Tonight's novel concept. I it looks it just looks a little bit different than normal. You know? No, no. Matteo's underpinned minutes. Got to be under ten minutes. Now, I really thought for a second. Gonna. Summary. First year second year, twelve minutes for money. Oh. Double digits except for double winning play last night. Everyone's the double that's going to wrap it up. I hate all this good moves for for tennis Bernstein. Dave Joseph date back. No that Carlin bay. I am Jessica, thanks for listening Kingston. We'll probably talk to you soon. Let's hope so.

Dustin Brown Dennis Bernstein Jackie Dave Los Angeles Jack Calgary doughty Jesse Cohen Dave Taylor Jack Hughes Jonathan quick Patrick Kane Carlin Jess National Hockey League Dave Joseph John John hockey Slovenia
In the Shadow of Zion: Promised Lands Before Israel

The Tel Aviv Review

23:15 min | 2 years ago

In the Shadow of Zion: Promised Lands Before Israel

"This is is to be one. Vitelle Aviv review with glad Halpern. Hello and welcome to the Tel Aviv review program dedicated to the word to thought and to debate. I'm your host could happen. And every week I've been gauging closing counters of the intellectual kind with writers. Scholars essayists all simply people who've done something to make lives of Tadmor interesting. And on our show today, our guest is Dr Adam rovner an associate professor of English and Jewish literature at university of Denver, and the author of a new book entitled in the shadow of Zion, promised lands before Israel was recently published by New York University. Press the book explores the stepsiblings of sinus him six different attempts to establish Jewish political entity in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and why they all failed. No, Adam, welcome to the Taghi Lod. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. So we're talking about six alternatives ions or alternatives, twos, ien all over the world. In upstate New York in Surinam in South America, west, as well as east Africa and Australia. And my question to you house more generally to start with sure, how realistic were they really. A, whether just pipe-dream all of them. It's a good question. What I focused on the book where six plans were just a Dios, they weren't just proposals. They're actually plans all of them had government backing or colonial governmental backing. They had support from Jewish organizations, Jewish nationalist movements at the time, those recalled territorialised, and they also sent out expeditions to each of these places so and they published reports. So all of these places that were concerned that you just listed, they all were real and potential areas of actual mass settlement, but owning theories, they never mounted any concrete plan. That's right. In only in the case of Kenya, which is popularly known, well, miss known as the Uganda plan. Did any Jews actually arrive in advance of what they assumed was going to be a mass immigration in the other places? As you mentioned in South West Africa and Golan. No one came. In Madagascar. No one came in Tasmania. No-one came in Sorenstam. No one came during that era, although immediately after World War Two holocaust, survivors did make their way there is that because the Gonda plan was sanctioned by these congress where whereas the others were just ideas of maverick individuals. Well, I wouldn't call them avenues but, but that is it's a little bit complicated thing, but I'll try to clarify the Zionist. Congress did not necessarily support the plan. They supported the sending of an expedition to Kenya, and it was very controversial in Zionist movement and it afterwards once they made their report in nineteen five, it's split Zionist congress. And that was what let Israel's Zang. Well, who's famous British author, British SAS and political figure. We have many streets named after him here in Israel to leave Zionist congress. He was probably hertzel's best friend, biggest supporter at the time. And he just. Walked out of the congress, walked out of the basil offices of the hotel, walked across the street more or less and set up a rival conference territorialism and they took up the idea of east Africa afterwards. Okay. So before we come back to that because I have another question about it's, can you tell us a bit about the people who came up with the as who were they will general profile? Yeah, and they're kind of the cast of characters of my books. I wrote the book for general readers. I wrote it in this in a way that it's a story know we all know how the story ends, but we don't know about these people, and I think that their stories in their their efforts humanitarian efforts to save rescue, a large part of the Jewish people at various points in history is an important story that that we should remember no matter what we think about Israel and in Israel or outside of Israel. It's very important. So you called the Mavericks, and I guess that's fairly accurate to some extent we had an all and chronological order a guy by the name of Mordecai. By Manuel, Noah. There's some few streets named after him in Israel Emmanuel, Naw as always known in Hebrew, a, he came up with an idea to create a Jewish mini state sanctuary in an area of upstate New York, which is actually an island between buffalo and I guess you'd say, Canada, Toronto, right? Near Niagara Falls. This area he had purchased land. He had sent out a prospectus. He had given a call proclamations. There's a whole cornerstone setting ceremony, and no one came the direct result really of anti settlement efforts by prominent rabbis in France and in England that was in the nineteen hundred. Then we move up. We see the Kenya plan what's known as the Uganda plan. And that was pioneered by really Theodore Hertzel in conjunction with the British statesman. Joseph Chamberlain. Then Israel's Zanga took it up after hertzel's. Death and goal was pioneered by Zang will and Zanga. Fascinating figure who sort of one of the heroes of the book. Then there's Madagascar, which was a plan that was ultimately taken up and perverted by the Nazis it during the holocaust era. But in the prewar era, it was a joint polish and French idea which had the support of some in the Jewish community. This was an era of increasing antisemitism in Poland, and we're gonna eve of the will talking really nineteen thirty seven to be more precise. And so there were a great deal of efforts to try to do something with the Jews who were spilling into Poland's borders refugees from the Reich and also pull and had its own homegrown anti semitism. They're looking for a way out. And the idea of settlement Madagascar was DEA that a Jewish territorial movement pioneered after that we moved to Tasmania, which is the island's state of Australia off the mainland south there. That area. That was an idea that was. Is very interestingly. It was pioneered by Yiddish writer and editor and important guy by the name of melon, which and later taken up by Isaac, knock men, Steinberg, who is probably the other hero of the or anti hero, depending on your perspective of the book and Isaac Steinberg was an orthodox Jew. He was a social revolutionary and kind of fascinating the, he'd also been a member of Lennon's. I Soviet government and he had this idea to save us all these people and he, he also continued in sore numb. All these people were Jewish humanitarian. They were seeking not just state building, but rescue and then state-building. Okay. So maybe the conclusion is that cut a stroke exoticism and as it was no known the emotional attachment to the the idea or the land, but the fact that Zionism was there or any kind of Jewish homeland was there to save the Jewish masses. From a persecution just utterly failed. Even on the eve of the second will it didn't work. So it means that it conduct. That's all. Well, the notion of catastrophic Zionism I take a little bit in the book and it's really interesting point, and this is fascinating. I think for people who are into political science and also Isreaeli an and just wider Jewish history. So we see this odd connection. What we might call catastrophic territorialism in which are these territories you're saying we gotta do something the the vice of the right, the antisemitism, the world's collaborators. The gates are shut. We must do something. This is particularly emphasized during the Evian conference are thirty eight, thirty nine on the eve of the war. What do we do? This is the Jewish, but what do we do? How do we save ourselves? And the two major figures of that era who are really seeing the writing on the wall in ways that are somewhat eerie are Jabotinsky known for his right wing militant ma-. Maximalist Zionism were right off Jabotinsky street right here. And another guy who doesn't have any streets named after which is who is Isaac Steinberg. The two of them both saw the coming disaster in ways that are surprising to read today. They saw a, if not millions of deaths and certainly not the mechanical means by which Jews were destroyed and mass and whole communities wiped out. They certainly saw the dangers posed to the spiritual and physical Jewish people in Europe. And so what Steinberg did was try to find a way out for these Jews and he wanted to preserve Yiddish Kate in a sense, whereas Jabotinsky wanted to find a way out and create this Israeli or Hebrew speaking nation. They actually wrote about one another favorably, shockingly. So is this really paths. One of the theoretical differences between Zionism and territory. Realism other than the fact that Zion is in one and absent from the other, the fact that tourism will some sort of continuation of the desperate whereas on is was a revolutionary, and I think that you've really hit the nail on the head and this this is my perspective. Other historians may not agree, but I would say, if you look back at the record, you look back at letters. You look back what was written. We really see that in the era in Israel or what was then British mandate Palestine, even before into Ottoman Palestine. The state building effort came before the humanitarian effort. People like Siskind said so quite clearly, and he was a rival to Hertzel. Whereas in territorialised movement, the humanitarian aim of rescue took primacy. So in Zion might say that under assis- kin after hertzel's death, the who was he was important propagator of these notions that. Zionism became a state building effort primarily and secondarily or maybe tertiary a humanitarian effort were the territorialised always maintained humanitarian effort. I and state building second, and I'd like to know whether these honest Zionist congress and those who are actively sinus, whether ever threatened by thirty realism, whether I on a par equally powerful at some point are also also question on something that's that's forgotten. The territorialised for a significant part of the early twentieth century probably had a lot more sway on called the Jewish street into designers. It's partially we can see the results of this in the United States into the great deal of immigration that came from czarist Russia from the pal of settlement into the US. In those early years, I think immigration, the US Peter on nineteen seven or something eighty eight in raw numbers. What we see is that the terrain. Torey lists under Zang will very shrewdly created agencies to give information out to potential emigrants in the pal settlement, and they had hundreds of offices were designs, did not have that kind of organization on the ground in the pale and those they'd have. They were very selective about who they allowed into what was then automobiles who they encouraged to come. I guess we could say a historian and university of Haifa. Gore, always very good historian. He's documented this degree deal in an I. I'm sort of drawing on his work here, and I point out too that, but beyond that designers were clearly threatened by the territorialised as a rival group, at least for some periods of time they attacked, especially in the territorial said every corner they could assis- consent out speakers to attack bore ball was one of his emissaries to attack this plan throughout a Yiddish speaking. Hebrew. King, whatever Russia and and the pale throughout eastern and central Europe. So this way they were Ravel groups and only later did the territorial SRI attack designed. So when was really the will to shed when did the tide start turning towards Zionism? We'll zone them. I think we can say that Zionism becomes much more of a mass movement in the in the nineteen twenties. We start really seeing that build up and maybe in the immediate post World War One era. There's displacement mean people came to what was then I'm empower Stein and left, but certainly without a doubt, I think everyone would agree that in the run-up to World War Two in the nineteen thirties when we had mass amounts of germ refugees coming to Israel, we really start seeing Zionism as an ideology and as an established fact on the ground with the flourishing of Tel-Aviv, for example, as as a turning point to what extent is thanks to the British empire of fostering Zionism ouster, occupied Palestine. Well, you know, the British played one. Group off the other for decades, the Arabs against the Jews Arabs. And so that while there was a one hand that was giving and supportive another hand was taking away and was frustrating these state-building efforts trying to maintain this odd status quo, which no one was happy was more or less the British policy. And you see British. If you go into the parliamentary records, which done you see people who are pro Jewish were were asked the British government to let in more Jews in the immediate prewar era, and the British government has having policy of saying now. Yet those plans to settle Tasmania and monta Gasco all during the same time outlay failed. It did utterly fail. I think they failed for number reasons. One, they failed because the people who are supporting them, these individuals, especially Steinberg, for example, even Zanga to extent they placed their faith in individuals within a governmental system. They didn't really understand perhaps or fully understand our pre sheet, the nature of bureaucracies, and of differences within a government itself of the pros and cons the p, the various opposing forces. So when they did get support from important people, they thought that support was going to necessarily lead to success with individuals. For example, with Chamberlain, let's say or win is acknowledged, Steinberg had two governors of territories in Australia states actually support his plan in Tasmania and Western Australia. But that didn't necessarily mean that they were going to. To actually have the funding, etc. To move this afford. There's also the sense of historical events would Rwanda. One interrupts to a large extent the plan to settle Angola. Once the Portuguese government had already approved it World War Two interrupts the plan to settle Western Australia, which only discussed to some extent my book and Tasmania is interrupted more or less by tragic death. By one of the principals who had a great deal of political connections in Tasmania, not Steinberg, man, whose Steinberg worked with so. And Thirdly, none of these places really caught the imagination of the Jewish masses. So maybe that's really the the bottom line here that you know, it's just the gravitational pool of of the promised land that thanks to the entire project of Jewish nationalism to cough. Maybe those places that you discuss those lands were just not promised enough. I think that there's that is absolutely a part of the story. Here, we just don't see the level of commitment to a religious or sentimental, emotional tach meant to the land of Israel. We just don't see that when it comes to say Madagascar or East African people tried in Zionist congress. They tried to make the case. For example, at the Rift Valley which begins in east Africa, which begins actually in the area where they plan Jewish settlement was just a continuation of greater Israel, which is even more maximalist position than Jabotinsky would would take, but but those sort of practical matters of trying to settle to get Jews out, sadly, perhaps in the sense of saving people's lives did not come to pass. One last question perhaps doto, but is this really an exhaustive study study of alternatives to sign? Because what one glaring absence is perhaps the most high profile example Baraga John that attempt to set up a Jewish as of yet Republican, the Russian far east. Why? Why didn't you not included in right and glad you bring this up always, let's say, first of all, no study is exhaustive. I I would not claim that for my own. I picked these six because I could see a historical connection between them each of these plans besides being actual plans. And besides being the object of commission of scientific study were all promoted by a literary figure, an editor journalist, a writer, fiction and intellectual man of letters. In these cases and bureau, be John wall did have the supports of many intellectuals men of letters and. Especially in the dish, writing bro. John comes out of a different sort of family tree. It is going to some scholars launched as a kind of cynical Stalinist for sponsors to China's them and was not territorialism per se, the territorial stem cells distanced their organizations from the bureau be John efforts mostly because by the nineteen thirties, many of those involved in territorial including Steinberg himself, had a very negative reaction to the Soviet policies in the understood in a way that many people in the US and Canada, for example, did not that bureau. John was more of a ploy was a Potemkin village of of some kind and never really took off. So it's so they thought that they realized that the Soviet Union was essentially anti-jewish and won't willing to allow them to fulfill the nationalist certainly Stein. Emberg did, and and he just self from that an under his watch territorialised movement, the Freeland league. So it was called really kept themselves at arm's length from John, they were happy to see Jews flourishing and living, but they they didn't come out right and criticize it, but in their internal documents and even in some of their publications, they were very skeptical we might say of it. So it's not an exhaustive list. I, I made my decisions to to pick places that connection with one another. They were actual plans had a scientific commission and that we're led by figures from literature of some way because I do come from later and that I went to all these places to do research to see the actual sites. And I think that also allowed me to visualize them as more than abstract paper states, but his actual potentials, and in some cases, especially in sore nam and in Kenya, I really was able to see the fertility of the land and. And the possibilities of some kind of state building for could have made them, yeah. Well, but history is what happens when Jews making other plans by the way, another flagrant omission in your book over Jewish a nation state will is, of course the upper Westside in Manhattan that for another discussion, not enrolling associate professor of English and Jewish literature, the university of Denver and author of in the shadow of nine promised land before Israel. Thank you very much for this. Thank you for having me. And this brings us to the end of our show today. Thank you very much for listening. Also big, thanks to Alexander the technical this show. I'm signing off here in Tel-Aviv, do join us again next week for another addition of the Tel Aviv review and until then. Good. Bye. Is going to find.

Israel Isaac Steinberg Tasmania Kenya Madagascar Theodore Hertzel Australia east Africa John wall congress Poland United States Uganda Zion university of Denver Tadmor Tel-Aviv Manhattan Europe
The Jewish Story Season 2, Episode 35: The Warsaw Ghetto and the Rise of Jewish Resistance

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58:36 min | 1 year ago

The Jewish Story Season 2, Episode 35: The Warsaw Ghetto and the Rise of Jewish Resistance

"Thank you for downloading this podcast from the process institute of Jewish studies, so more originals horror content. Visit Almonte dot podcasts dot ORG. It. Now, a prayer says Elliot's Ellen his book night, or rather, a piece of advice, let there be comradeship among you, we are all brothers, and we're all suffering the same fate the same smoke floats over all our heads help one another it is the only way to survive. Well, one Accu is all that we should all be rather than sisters, and we should give each other that helping hand I'm rob Mike Feuer. And this is the Jewish story. Episode thirty five gates are shut. By the end of nineteen forty one any Jew left in Europe wet is in his head to see recognize that it was late run. They hadn't heeded Jefferson's. He's warning and now Poland was long overrun by the Nazis in the doors of Europe are shutting fast off to the west fortress Europe looms, and it's going to be nearly three years before the unbelievably brutal Normandy invasion, manages to crack the Nazi defenses facing the Atlantic. And when they do don't forget, more than two hundred thousand allied troops will die on the beaches of France, not to mention even greater number of Germans. But by the time the allies arrived in western Europe, view Jews will remain, just those hiding in holes or addicts or fled the woods as partisans off to the east in the other direction. The door is definitely shut. I mean, the Germans and the Russians have been mauling each other since operation Barbara's sneak attack, ended, the Nazi Soviet Niagara. It's true that the German offensive stalled at Moscow, and eventually the tide of war will actually turn against them through the bloody battle of Stalingrad toward the end of nineteen forty two but none, the less death lay to the east for the Jews. Not freedom in the initial phase of that invasion. Nazis gain, the Laban's round the living room, they were looking for, and the economic resources. They were racing across the breadbasket Ukraine toward the oil of the Congress's. That's what it was about. And they also gained millions more Jews these newly conquered territories together with the rest of the Nazi Soviet battlegrounds that will emerge will become what historian, Timothy's Neider calls, the blood lands, his claim is that as the Nazis and the Soviets, I collaborated and then clash he turned Poland Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and the Baltic states into gigantic killing fields, the double occupation destroyed any apparatus of. State or even fabric of society that could or would stand in the way of the beast, which these totalitarian societies on in their men what followed was a sustained campaign of killing men women and children, the likes of which had been unimaginable in Europe up till now. I mean, just for context, more than two million combatants were wounded captured or killed at the battle of Stalingrad alone. But the blood lands were not about combat deaths. They were soaked with the blood of the victims of ideological mass murder, the Nazis, innovated industrialized smoothly administrated, killing of Jews in the death camps of Treblinka out of it trays instead Belzec Ma the house and Sobibor, most of which were back actually in western in central Europe. It was here in the open lands of the east where the most Jews died where the Germans perfect. The crude and local means of murder, like mass shootings, Babi, Yar outside of Kiev. Only the best known. That's because thirty three thousand seven hundred seventy one Jews were killed in a single operation on September twenty ninth thirtieth, nineteen forty one seven hundred and three per hour almost twelve per minute. And that's the gunshots rang out unceasingly day and night. According to Snyder more than fourteen million noncombatants died in the blood lands from nineteen thirty three to nineteen Forty-five, victims of the Nazi and Soviet ideologies, and the presence in the heart of Europe of a world, which existed without law, or even human morality. Now, there are pundits and historians who criticize neither these saying that his numbers in the equivalence. He draws between the murderous nature of the Soviet and the Nazis reduces the significance of the holocaust, and I'm not going to weigh in on that debate, because despite the overwhelming idea of six million Jews. Murdered one third of our people dead for the sole reason of being who they were in my eyes. Is the numbers of the holocaust are actually not, what matter because the fact is that Hitler and his men aimed to kill every Jew on the planet, and they would have done it six million were simply all managed to get you before they were stopped. No, forget the Nazis weren't just after our death wanted to erase our memory to remove all traces of the Jewish infection from their culture, establishing a pure race in a new world to me the significance of the holocaust lies, not in the numbers, who were even in the chilling modern means of murder that the Nazis innovated, but rather in the role that the show a place in the Jewish story, and therefore in the story of the world, and what that role is, is still far from clear, even seventy plus years later. But you think that dinosaurs knew that was all over right? When the asteroid hit so Europe is closed. There was a last glimmer of hope in the illegal ships, designers were still trying to launch or the mandate and December twelfth. Nineteen forty one only a month or so, before the fate of the Jews under Nazi rule was given it final bureaucratic form. And the one c conference we discussed last episode ship loaded with skis, actually, managed to sail from Constanza in Romania with seven hundred and sixty nine souls aboard the Struma aim to reach Turkey and from there to await certificates of entry for British Palestine, which even under the harsh rule. The MacDonald, white paper was still a last hope for refuge. The vessel was commissioned by Japanese news, Zionist organization. Those are the us in the air, go and underground militia. It was the last boatload of Jews to leave Europe in wartime. They shut the gates behind them. Now the Turkish authorities refused to allow the passengers to disembark when they arrive for fear that the British wouldn't give them the certificates and then Turkey would be forced to take the Jews in and despite the pleading of the captain, that has ship was unfit to continue on its way the Turks tote it back. To the Black Sea on February thirteenth, nineteen forty two on the following day. A mighty explosion was heard, and the ship went down all hands aboard only one survivor ever reached areas Israeli the tell tale. So the doors are shut in some scattered, where they would many lay down in dive with there were those whose eyes were opened by the shadow of death to a New York City. Listen to the words of the first call of the original awaking of the Jews the inconceivable reality that can ended them. Let's not go, like sheep to the slaughter. Oh, Jewish youth. Do not believe those who are deceiving. You out of eighty thousand Jews of the Jerusalem. With, with Wayne Lia at Vilna, only twenty thousand remain in front of your eyes, our parents, our brothers, our sisters are being torn away from us. Where are the hundreds of men were snatched away, for labor by the Lithuanian kidnappers. Where are those naked women who were taken away on the horror night of the provocation, anyone who has taken out through the gates of the ghetto will never return all roads? The ghetto lead to Ponnary and Ponnary means death. Oh, despairing people hair, this deception away from your is your children, your husband's your wives, are no longer alive. Ponnary is not a labor camp everyone. There is shot Hitler aims at destroying the Jews of Europe. It turned out to be the face. Eight of the Jews of Lithuania to be the first let us not go, like sheep to the slaughter is true that we are weak lacking protection, but the only reply to a murder is resistance brothers is better to die as free fighters than the live at the mercy of killers, resist resist to our last wrath. More perhaps, than any other city in Europe, Warsaw embodied, the fullness of European Jewish existence. Traditional Heidi stood shoulder to shoulder with modern cosmopolitanism learning literature and art bubbled up on every street corner life life, itself, every facet of Jewish culture thrive there, and it was no ghetto, despite the traditional and widespread, polish antisemitism juice can be found in the full range of social civic, and cultural life at almost every level. And so with the destruction of Warsaw jury came the end of European Jewish life, as we know it and the even auntie invasion Jews made up thirty percent of the city's population. There were nearly three and a half million Jews in pulling altogether and ninety percent of them would be murdered before the war's end these Jews had helped build world society that fought in its wars of freedom to even. Saying patriotic songs when they drank. But all that ended on September twenty ninth when after weeks of fighting the siege to the city ended, and the German armies entered Warsaw's gates truth is the Jews knew it was all over even before the Nazis arrived, or at least visine us, new, and those willing to listen to them hadn't Jabotinsky warned just last summer to get out before it was too late. And when it's be Greenberg already known as the poet prophet to Jewish youth, and whose extreme revisionist views only made him all of the more hero in their eyes. Burst into the offices of the language daily, Doug moment, only days after the Germans cost polish border, he shouted. What are you doing here? It's all over and the words of the prophet can't be ignored those who could scattered some fleeing south after spe- hoping against hope that the remaining Boris delay open. He actually made it there. To thrill many more headed north to Vilna, hoping that the Jerusalem of Baltic jury offered safety from the Nazi threat, they suffered I under the Soviet occupation. Many disappearing into the gulag prisons of the east concentration camps USSR style Menachem Begin who story will see in the next episode took that path, and those that remain. Well, many died at the hands of the Nazis at pony, like we heard about at the end of the last segment. But most of the Jews of Warsaw stayed put why run when you're already at the center and they dismissed the words of the prophets long ago and when the Germans began to build the ghetto wall around the traditional Jewish quarter, I'm willing to bet that there were more than a few who took comfort from this barrier being put up between them and the non Jewish world, but as the wall rose, and the remaining Jews outside the ghetto were hurt it in until more than four hundred thousand human beings were packed into an area of only one point three square miles. As the amount of food which passed the ghetto walls dropped steadily in disease, spread life became increasingly desperate, it seems that the ghetto began as a holding pen place to Corentin that Jewish infection, and where mass death was really only a side benefit and the very ambivalence of its first phase was expressive of the lack of clarity amongst, not the leadership in the first phase of the war. What were they going to do with the Jewish problem, where the Jews to be walled off, slowly starve exploited a slave labor or had the time come for a final solution, the construction of the ghetto, wall began April first nineteen forty and by most accounts, despite the scale with the building the construction of the cattle was largely ignored by the Christian. Former neighbors and friends of Warsaw's Jews most turned a blind eye to their disappearance into the world of the ghetto and many were not sorry when the gates finally shut regard in Jewish competition. Was erased forever on October. Sixteenth. The creation of the ghetto was officially announced by the German governor, general Hans Frank. And by November fifteenth a month later. The Jews, of course, our completely sealed off from the outside world mind. Three meters of brick top with barbed-wire escapees to be shot on sight, the ghetto entailed cruelty of control that is hard to imagine only one hundred eighty four calories per day per Jew, even allowed through its walls, just to give you a sense as compared to almost seven hundred for the polls and twenty six hundred for the Germans disease spread rapidly in the tight pack and starving an unholy, genyk editions, nevertheless through smuggling and mutual aid life in the ghetto, actually, in many ways, thrived educational, cultural activities, flourish hospitals sprang up soup kitchens, orphanages even recreation centers came into being there was. In a school system. And then there was the own shabas circle. This is a circle of intellectuals and writers and fingers organized by manual Ringo bomb, whose writings archives were actually buried in gradually retrieved after the war through great miracles. By the way, if you want to fictional work, which deals with that, topic, perhaps the most moving in gripping book. I've ever read a holocaust John Hersey the wall, but you have to know it's not actually true. Those archives, however, were real and they brought us the holy book of the h code. There's the peace nets Raby, who was the spiritual master who delved deep into the nature suffering as he lived and died in the Warsaw ghetto. So the posture of spiritual resistance, which was the backbone of traditional Jewish culture for much of European history. In my eyes would allow the Jews to grow, even in this the darkness of places, but that all change. On July twenty second nineteen forty two the eve of the ninth of ATI Shabaab tough sheen. Bet the onesie conference, had just resolved the Embiid of the Nazi hierarchy mass murder could begin and their victims had already been concentrated in one place. The only major logistical challenge, which remained was how to move those Jews from the ghetto to the death camps at first the Germans promised those who would voluntarily for it to the womb slog, plots the collection point that they established within the ghetto for transfer to the east, as they called it would receive three kilo Brad. And one q of jam. Now there were enough Jews hovering at starvation level, that in many thousands after all they still had no idea as to where they are being taken and hard labor at the warfront didn't sound so bad. At least you feed your slaves. Right. And even when the scientists began to circulate the rumors of gas chambers. And crematoria who could possibly believe such madness? But after few days volunteers, actually stopped coming, maybe it was the site of the brothers and sisters packed into cattle cars squeeze so tight that many died standing up. Maybe it was designed as propaganda telling the people that cooperation meant certain death either way the Nazis. Switch tactics now whole city blocks were cordoned off in Jewish. Police were sent in to remove the resonance once they were on the streets. It was the Germans that carried out the selection while they sent, polish and Ukrainian policemen. Just ransacked the buildings after them panic rolled in waves to the ghetto confusion anger despair, those who could hit those who could not died by the time the action as the Nazis called it ended on September twenty Firth Yom Kippur day, nearly two hundred sixty five thousand souls have been deported to the dribbling. Extermination camp. There. They were either gassed and cremated upon arrival work to death through a brutal combination of slave labor starvation after the deportations. An estimated sixty thousand Jews remained within the ghetto walls, and a strange comb settled over that shrunken ghetto with it came a sense of bitterness, and shame many survivors blame themselves, the well known phenomenon survivor's guilt. And if you're a Jew out there listening to me, who knows a little bit about your story. You should look inside yourself and ask where are you carrying that guilt? So many this virus, there in the ghetto blame themselves for not resisting as had watched their family and heads be taken in all knew that sooner or later, they would share the same fate, now, it was largely the young and strong with survive natural selection of the evil is in most unnatural kind and as with all such evolutionary processes, a new creature. Was forced into being the fighting ju it began when the members of three Zionist youth movements, we've actually met before I show her how to throw in Khiva establish the first cell, and when the poor light Sione, join them in October of nineteen forty to the Jewish fighting organization aka Zeo, be was born within a short time, even the bund, right. The socialist anti-zionist Emma, communist, put aside the ideological differences and United behind Twenty-three-year-old more high eleven of the hasher Mahat's at your movement, who became commander of the Jewish fighting organization, though, even here in the ghetto at the last desperate moment, the divisions that wracked on Israel were not left, holy behind the right ring, revisionists form, their own organization, the Jewish military union, which did fight alongside but not within vizier, OBE, desperate. The fighters worked with smugglers to purchase any weapon they could though the home. Army the polish underground, which was fighting an ongoing battle with German occupies the time at I stood aloof from their uprising refusing to coordinate or even contribute. The Jews were not their problem or perhaps they were, but the Germans were the solution, if it isn't a gathering arms. The could the underground fighters needed to communicate their message to the Jews remain. Scattered throughout the jet. In addition to gathering arms, they could underground fighters, realized that the needed to communicate their message, the Jews remain scattered throughout the ghetto, one manifesto that they plastered on the wall reads, as follows Jews Avar saw the hour is drawing near you must be present prepared to resist not a single Jew should go to the railroad cars. Jews of Warsaw. The hour is drawing near you must be prepared to resist not a single Jew should go to the railroad cars. Those who are unable to put up active resistance should resist, passively and should go into hiding. Our slogan must be all are ready to die as human beings. And January ninth nineteen forty three the Germans launched another round of deportations, the underground leadership believed it was the beginning of the final liquidating of the ghetto, and they decided to come out fighting just imagine the surprise and the phases of the Nazis when they were met not by cowering victims, but by a hail of bullets and molotov cocktails, the last stand of post jury had begun now, the Germans managed to shoot some six hundred Jews and remove five thousand more for transport to the death camps, but after a few days of fierce house to house fighting it were forced to retreat a subsequent attempt by the German army to retake the ghetto with actually repulsed in for a few precious months. The Warsaw ghetto became sovereign Jewish territory, the quest for arms now became even more desperate. The home army chains attitude toward the juice in the light of these initial victories. And they sent a small quantity of arms and explosives in. Through the wall. The network of underground bunkers and tunnels was extended and strengthened in the life of the Jews moved. Truly underground. But the resistance fighters knew that there was only one conclusion to this drama, a handful of rebellious youth with not defeat, the German war machine. And so an April nineteenth nineteen forty three era of Pasa the final battle began. Several hundred German troops escorted by tanks, armored cars in preceded by Ukrainian auxiliary units moved into the ghetto once more their initial protons repulse and wars are watched as ambulances carry the German wounded and dead out of the ghetto. And then a site appeared, which no one could imagine. Even their wildest dreams the polish flag, and the white and blue star of David were raised high on a house Cup, a Marin county square where the revisionists had halted the German advance on the third day of the uprising, you're gonna Stroup as, as leader in Warsaw decided that the only way to break, the resistance was the burn them out. So special units quicker. Flame throwers were sent through the gates sappers blew up the ghetto building by building, as others burned around them and poison gas field the sewers I may eighth nineteen forty three the Germans reach and lavish spunk at eighteen Mula street. And they began to pump poison gas in through the air ducts, the remaining fighters actually took their own lives, rather than die at the hands of their perspective. Murderers, and their bodies are still sealed underground, even now meal eighteen in the remains of their own personal gas chamber with the destruction of the great synagogue of Warsaw on may sixteenth, Germans declared victory. The ghetto was in ruins answer, meaning sixty thousand Jews either murdered on the spot or sent to die in the camps. A few buildings still stood above the smoking rebel in even a handful of Jews. It survived escaping through the sewers the prediction made by RAV Alexander Friedmann secretary, general of goodest Israel in Poland, and one of the Torah leaders who was there in the Warsaw. Ghetto had indeed come true. A Freeman had been amongst the first to try and inform world jury about the death that awaited them saying that the Warsaw ghetto would be the fulfillment of the awful prophecy, found in almost five three, the city that goes out, a thousand strong, we'll have one hundred left and the one that goes out one hundred song, we'll have ten left to the house of Israel. So now I'm left with the question. What is the story of the Warsaw ghetto images of the ghetto held out against the German army longer than many European countries, but we call it victory. I mean, certainly the uprising became an example, for the Jews in other ghettos and camps. But the struggles that followed were feeble, and doomed from the start nineteen forty-three was too late for the Jews of Europe to take the path of resistance. Some of the survivors of the ghetto didn't he live and I can call that victory. They made their way actually demanding Tori Palestine continuing their armed struggle for liberation in the land of Israel and inspiring their brothers and sisters, the fight. The last drop of blood in there is there was only freedom or heinous death. And when the camps were liberated they were joined by thousands more who'd been to hell. And back and had no intention of returning one via Lou beckon, the only female leader of the Jewish war. Underground in Warsaw would later testify at the trial of auto Aikman the architect of the final solution. So I might call that victory. And you need to know that when the modern state of Israel established a day of memory for the holocaust in the national calendar. The following declaration was made on the floor of the Knesset the first Knesset declares determines that the twenty seventh day of the month of Nissan every year shall be. Holocaust and ghetto fighters day, and turn all day of remembrance for the house of Israel, the date, and the name attached. The hulkah- specifically the Warsaw, ghetto uprising. Now, there is so much to explore there in the decision of Zionists to include arm resistance, as a core element of the memory of the story in which honesty, it appears to be a sidelight, and we're going to have to leave a discussion of the challenge that the model of spiritual existence had defined exile life hoses to the activists Zion. Coast to another time. And Furthermore, how it relates to their subsequent need to define European jury as weak and pass it now, certainly most people are aware of the power that resistance offers as a moral model. They beacon of nobility that can light are way down through history. But for the sake of our story, now, I can't answer the question of what's the story of the Warsaw ghetto? But I wanna market. I wanna Mark the Warsaw ghetto uprising as the end of a certain model of click quiet diplomacy of the Stoddard lawns acquiescence to the reality of thirty and the neat, the bow to the power of the non Jews and beg just to save a little bit in my eyes. The decision to fight was not premised on hope for victory, or even on the expectation of survival that decision was an assertion of Tommy, it was a cry history and to the future that the Jews who came next would never allow their enemies to define them. In the fires that destroyed the Warsaw ghetto forge a Jew, who had no longer looked to the world for help or salvation or even kindness. And as such there's a direct line that we're going to have to trace from the bunkers of the Warsaw ghetto to the declaration of independence in Israel in nineteen forty eight and to the Manny, Manny problem attics that exists even now in the relationship between Jew in non Jew, and the state of Israel. But for right now, no chapter ever. So tragic is the last, not all the Jews of the world were in Europe, when the joys shot or even in the land of Israel, the time has come to glance across the ocean to America where the doors are not quite close yet in the path of apply. Diplomacy is alive and well. Many ways will work to marks the emergence of American Jewry as a separate player in our version of the Jewish story in as is true of any element of significance in history. There's a deep debate over what exactly their role is in the present chapter. What do I mean? I mean American dream do everything they could to save their brothers. Were they making the best effort, only to be thwarted by their relative powerlessness within the American political system, compounded by widespread antisemitism, and the challenge of making any waves during wartime? Or do they abandon their brothers due a sense of distance in alienated from the Jews of Europe? Jealousy for communal position and power, and in over-focus on the Zionist project as the solution to the Jewish problem. There are historians politicians and present day community leaders will line up on both sides of that debate. In fact, if you want to stir up a lively, reaction from a certain generation of engaged American Jews just. Start tossing out provocative comments. But whether US jury did enough to stop the holocaust or not. Don't tell them I told you so though, okay? So the issue immigration was the first phase of the question, and then actually began well before the war broke out the country that elected FDR Franklin Delano Roosevelt, president for the first time in nineteen thirty two was a deeply troubled place. Let's not forget that you Konami was paralyzed deepen the grip of the great depression in near the twenty five percent of the workforce was unemployed. Furthermore, it was still licking its wound, physical, psychological, and political from the first World War, and you could say that deeply 'isolation is element has actually always existed in American culture. After all, what's rugged individualism, if it's not rooted in the desire to be alone. Think of Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone. And this characteristically American disposition after all no one's ever heard of a French isolationist had a deep root in the physical isolation of the new world from the old and then also played a formative role in launching American Jewish culture. After all America's distance from Europe was part of its attraction for the Jews, as it had been for so many ways of immigrants before them, for many Jews, America was the golden Medina the Golden State that existed on the edge of their dreams, a place of big opportunity, bright, future, and that was true for so many ways of immigrants and also a place of freedom where the bonds of the past be the hatred tradition. Or both could be left far behind. And for those same two reasons he attraction of the future, and the possibility of abandoning the past many other Jews called America. The trade him Edina, impure state. An as Americans -ociety opened up more and more. To the Jews and each decade of the twentieth century to prewar. Jury it appeared that traditional European religious life had no place in the new world. I mean, the soil just didn't seem fit for such a foreign transport. It's true that certain major you. She vote schools of orthodox tore learning will manage to make the jump, and the iconic hells yeshiva opened its doors in my hometown of Cleveland. But that was at the height of the war in nineteen forty one and maybe in season three, we can discuss the rise of the Chola movement, the community learning model and the other factors that created American orthodoxy. But for now, just know it was reformed Judaism at served as the founding religion of the majority of our American Jewish forefathers, and that also deserves its own full story. But for the present purpose, the key element that reform Judaism offered. American Jews was away of being Jewish that allow them to maintain their personal and communal identity while still Mersing themselves. As deeply as possible into American society, and indeed, the Jews, succeeded proving once again that the Jews are just like everyone else, only more, so and we are more American than the Americans. I leave it to bigger scholars than I to give you the hard stats. But I only have to say two things at approved you that the Jews had an inordinate impact on American culture, Hollywood and New York City. So it was love at first sight in a manner, which I see no parallel in this exile. Maybe if I knew more about what life was actually like the Jews after the destruction of the first temple, I would make comparisons. But for now as an American Jew, as well as an Israeli citizen, I can really say it doesn't get better in the US in the Jewish story, actually want to take a second just say, thank you, America. Now, the words aren't enough and I want to let you know that there was a phase of my life, two years in back before I left that I spent living in the woods with at risk. With of America who've been taken out of their schools by the court system, and I'm not telling you that they may sound cool or make myself feel good. I'm telling you because it's very important. It was very important to me at the time that hukou, rod, a Tove to recognize the good that has been done to us as a people, my society that with all the complexities received us with open arms. I want to give this advice to anyone listening who's thinking of joining the team coming up to the land of Israel. Do something big to say. Thank you, before you go. But for now in our story all is rosy between Americans and ju- so long as American Jewish interests coincide because I Sulaiman ISM has a much darker side, it finds political expression in the desire for foreign policy that leaves the world deal with its own problems. And hence Congress's rejection of membership in the league of nations after World War One but it's social manifestation is fear dislike in exclusion of. Coroner's? It's a characteristically American story, the communities, which themselves had been immigrants felt the need to turn and bar the door behind them, not only because the economic thinking of competition for scarce resources, but also out of the cultural desire, that they could become white as it were if I wanted to use a racial term, characterize, what's really social cultural group, power of this mix and American culture is crazy complex and strong. Because of course, there are two significant elements of American history that don't fit that immigration, normalization model. The native Americans and the African Americans and I'm going to resist diving too deep into this messy question. But I will say that when the struggle against President Trump's policies of immigration produced. The slogan, we are all immigrants. I felt the raw rub of history and the half of those two peoples whether they themselves looked at it that way or not. But anyway for now. American immigration law in the years, leading up the holocaust reflected, the desire to bar, the door, and in the late thirties, the desire of American Jews to find shelter for their brothers and sisters was not considered so American. But it was seen as a very Jewish as the situation in Europe. Deteriorated the anti-foreigner isolationist, sentiments in the United States grew American jewelry began to walk on eggshells antisemitism in the United States, never reached intensity that Jew hatred saw in Europe, but large numbers of Americans did look upon Jews, as a foreign undesirable elements and in the thirties anti semitic leaders and movements began to grow around the fringes of American politics, as will happen, when questions of immigration become pressing take, for example, father, Charles Coughlin probably the best known. He was a charismatic priest and political organizer was actually the first American political leader to use radio to really reach a mass off. To create his following during the thirties and estimated thirty million listeners tuned into his weekly broadcasts. At I call him was a vocal supporter of president Roosevelt and his new deal. That looked to get America out of the depression. But as the decade progress, he became a harsh critic accusing the president of being too friendly with the bankers read Jews, and after the nineteen thirty six election, which FDR one again costume began to express sympathy for the governments of Hitler, Mussolini labeling them as the only antidote to the Jewish conspiracy of communism is periodical social Justice, even reprinted the classic anti semitic track protocols of the elders of Zion as a weekly installment now after the outbreak of World War, Two the Roosevelt administration, finally managed to force the cancellation of Caughlin show, and they banned the distribution of social Justice, but the Jews know that thirty million dedicated listeners, don't disappear overnight rose. Battle himself was a hero to American Jews and remained. So for many today, and they gained unprecedented access to the White House during his term in office, even appointed a Jew Andy Morgan bow as secretary of treasury, and he developed personal relationship with RAV rabbi. Stephen wise. Now rabbi. Stephen wise was the godfather of American Jewry in his day. He was a leading reform rabbi and an early American Zionists at a time when the two were very unlikely match. He was president of designers organization, America, Honore, presence of American Jewish Congress. He helped create the World Jewish Congress. He was even a co founder of the N, double ACP in one thousand nine fourteen and so the Jews had a leader. And they felt that their leader had the ear of highest power in a way, which they'd never yet had in America. And when the Germans marched unopposed into Austria in March of nineteen thirty eight president Roosevelt was determined to do something about it. Not to policies for the Jews of Germany since their rise to power, nineteen thirty three made it clear that the unsweetened as they called it put Austraia's one hundred eighty five thousand Jews in the media and serious danger. President Roosevelt call for an international conference on the issue of immigration and the avion conference was convenient July of ninety three eight in avion, France, quote to facilitate the immigration from Germany, Austria of political refugees. It was attended by representatives of three two countries and twenty four voluntary organizations. And even now is seem to be a study in the potential emptiness of international politics, when he heard that the world had gathered at Hitler responded by saying that if the other nations would agree to take the Jews. He was happy to help them leave. I can only hope he says, an expect the other world, which has such deep sympathy for these criminals will these be generous enough to convert this sympathy into practical aid. We. On our part, already put all these criminals at the disposal, these countries for all. I care even unlucky ships and it, I it appeared that the world would rise to the challenge the Dominican public right away offered to give sanctuary to a hundred thousand refugees right from the start, but then came the world of disaster, the polish remaining governments, watching, what was happening announced that they also claim the right to expel their juice. Now, the four hundred seventy five thousand Jews or so left in Germany, and Austria might be absorbed, by the more than thirty nations, which had gathered, but they held out. No hope for the millions of eastern Europe. And so the conference broke up in confusion, golden ear was actually there as a Representative from British mandatory Palestine. And even though the topic was saving the Jews she wasn't permitted to speak or participate in the proceedings except as an observer, but before she departed, she told the press, there's only. One thing I hope to see before I die, and that is that my people should not need expressions of sympathy anymore. You hear the echoes the Warsaw ghetto within months, the Nazis, swallowed the Dayton land, and a year later, they were in Warsaw, organiz immigration was no longer the issue that time for mass escape was at hand in the threat of war, and the fear of waves of foreign refugees flooding America, Royal congress, but despite the growing sense of urgency. The Jews kept silent on the political front. American Jewish Committee dean of American Jewish organizations in rally season wise, as American Jewish Congress, advise their people to observe, quote, a great deal of unnecessary caution as congress was holding stormy debates over how their immigration policy should respond to the global crisis and whenever debates historians may have the numbers give us a certain bottom line. There was much hand wringing back door negotiating and a lot of fear. But there was no concerted large scale ongoing communal political effort to change immigration policy. And so the gates of America were shut as well. Now, the Jews fear of potential explosive. Antisemitism is a back. Lot was certainly not unfounded. And we shouldn't fall prey to what historians. Call present ISM the tendency to look at the past through the lens of the present member in the late nineteen thirties, Jewish communities, political clout, or even any minority communities political clout was minor at best. Now some historians and revisionists thinkers, say that less wholesome motives, drove official Jewish city. They say that these Jews were looking to save their political capital for Zionist goals, and that the Jewish communal organisations were more engaged in infighting than the immigration battle some voices go. Even further claiming that the Jewish world of rabbi. Stephen wise, didn't want the unwashed masses eastern Europe as Samuel Merlin, a key member of the Bergson group who saw we're going to hear in a moment said they were not interested in people who were behaving. Ng in bearing ways, but nineteen forty two was very different than nine thousand nine hundred thirty eight and on August eighth nineteen forty two. Following telegram, reached both the British Foreign office in the American State Department. It was sent by Gerhard Wagner secretary of the World Jewish Congress has office in Geneva to his New York, and London offices. Received alarming report, stating that in the furious headquarters a plan has been discussed and is under consideration Cording to which all Jews in countries occupied or controlled by Germany numbering three and a half to four million's should after deportation and concentrated in the east be at one blow exterminated in order to resolve once and for all the Jewish question in Europe. Stop action is reported to be planned for the autumn. Stop ways of execution are still being discussed including the use of prospect acid. Stop we transmit this information with all the necessary reservation as exactitude cannot be confirmed by us stopped. Our informant is reported to have close connections with the highest German authorities and is reports are generally arrival stop, please inform and consult New York. The head of American rant of the double JC at the time was rabbi, Stephen wise, but he didn't receive the telegram, sent him State Department did not deliver it at least, not until the rabbi learned of rioters, terrible message from Jewish leaders in Great Britain. And when he did he mmediately, approached under secretary of state, Sumner Welles who asks wise, to keep the information, confidential until the government could verify it, why is agreed. And it was not until November of nineteen forty two three months later, wells authorized the release of writers message, hundreds of thousands of Jews may have died while he waited, otherwise held a press conference on the evening of November twenty fourth nineteen forty two and the next day's New York Times reported it on its tenth page. Now, the paper the time was own by the famous Arthur, Sulzberger, a Jew committed to assimilation and deeply opposed Zionism. He. Leaves a time of criticism in the literature. We're having buried the story of the murder of the six million on the back page as does rabbi, Stephen wise himself primarily for failing to risk his close relationship with Roosevelt in order to push to save his fellow Jews, but the rabbis press conference was not the only effort mainstream American Jewish organizations, including that wise as American Jewish Congress did sponsor rallies, and mass meetings in the coming years, but they never directly challenged American policy, and there's a grim comet recorded in the diary of hind Kaplan, which he wrote in the Warsaw ghetto a joke is making the rounds. He writes by Stephen s wise, is helping he's ordered American Jews to say the memorial prayer for the departed souls of police jury his foresight, he's accurate. But not every Jew was willing to let his brothers in Europe go quietly into the night. Petersburg's in was born hill. Cook in Lithuania nine thousand nine hundred fifteen son of rabbi Dov cook, and therefore nephew of Adam Yeta, Cohen, cook the first Ashkenazi chief rabbi of mandatory Palestine, and a personal spiritual. Hero in one thousand twenty four hill on his family made Aliyah. They went up to the land Israel, whereas father became the first chief, rabbi of these rarely city Fula, Hilla was raised in the waves fathers as befits the youngest son of a rabbinic dynasty. And therefore it was only natural that when the time was right. He was sent to Jerusalem to attend his uncle RAV cooks, Mercaz Harav, your Sheva, while at the same time, attending classes at the Hebrew University, and it was at the ladder, where he became a member of a small group of students would later become core members of the revisionist movement, including David Rasi, Al and Avraham stern. We've mentioned and will discuss more. In fact, as the situation between eras, British and Jews deteriorated the story of which we've told in previous episodes, he'll cook became a founding member of the goon Sallai, they'll me. The organization of the national military in nineteen thirty one he served as a post commander for the at cell or just the organ, it's usually known in one thousand nine thirty six every volt quickly rising become a member of the general, staff and hill, meant, Zev Jabotinsky himself. In Poland in nineteen thirty seven where he'd gone to organize and fundraise on behalf of the you're doing Roche bay tar, as Jabotinsky was known eventually asked hill to accompany him to the United States. And with Jabotinsky sudden death there in nineteen forty hill cook became the head of the your gun, and revisionist mission in America cut off by the war from anything, but the most sporadic communication, with the general staff, back in the land of Israel hill, saw himself, and the men with him as a cut off battalion cough, battalion whose mission was absolutely clear. They didn't Herod it from Jabotinsky himself. Their goal was to. Raise the Jewish army, that had been Jabotinsky is life dream in core foreign policy goal since his limited success back in World, War One and since this was a mission that classed with the mainstream Zionist leadership vision with British imperial interests, and even in many ways, with American foreign policy cook, changed his name to Peter Bergson in order to disassociate from his famous uncle on December fourth nineteen forty one three days before Pearl Harbor and Americans official entry into the war. The committee for a Jewish army was officially launched their claim was that the Jews of the mandate there in the land of Israel and those of Europe, who had become stateless because of Hitler had the right in duty to combine into a distinct fighting force that could join allies as a co belligerent now that may sound strange, but remember the word United Nations has it through in the agreement which was made by all the allies the light together. And not make separate pieces with Germany, therefore, there was a tremendous political significance to the Jews being a co belligerent and Bergson plan stress that point that the Jews of Europe needed an independent army, because they had no other nation than the Jewish one. Unlike for instance, the Jews of the United States who are joining the American army in large numbers. The link between stateless European Jews and the Jews and the Jewish homeland of Israel and the distinction between these Jews and the American British etc. Jews was actually a critical point in Bergson thought was developed during his time in America and one that we're going to return to particularly in season three you can already feel within it distinction. Rising between Israeli in ju one that's causing a lot of friction today. And speaking of friction Bergson 's committee made waves right off the bat. I mean press releases full page advertisements in major newspaper alliances with non Jews and aggressive lobbying or all unheard of tactics amongst Jewish official. And when Bergson committee was joined by famous journalists and Highwood screenwriter, Ben Hecht large-scale plays and pageants. Also became part of their strategy and the struggle for a Jewish army began to build real momentum. But. In November of nineteen. Forty two Bergson change discourse, I mentioned, the press conference called by rabbi, Stephen wise, in the wake of the writing telegram, and how it was buried in the back pages of the New York time were hopefully, no one would notice it, no one, but Peter Birks in that is because as he was sitting sipping his coffee before meeting on Capitol Hill destined to push the committee for the Jewish army Ford, Burks and flip to the back of the paper and saw the story. Now the idea of Nazi murder surely wasn't new Burke. Sins work over the last two years, had brought him plenty of word of the great slaughter occurring in Europe. But somehow, this was different Hella Graham, confirmed, officially by the US State Department, that described the program for the systematic, Snirmov nation of European jury was like nothing. He had ever imagined without thinking, he picked up the phone and call the assistant secretary of state. Out of barrel. Awkward name with whom he had met on many occasions, discuss the Jewish army, and he made a meeting for that very morning, and that may sound impressive, but you should know despite the attempts that have been made by Jewish official dome and even the British government itself to discredit Bergson over the last two years. The doors of Washington were open to him. Why that is depends on who you ask. But many people described him as diplomatic in bearing certainly, incredibly charismatic and most importantly, persistent, like a force of nature in pursuit of his goals, Burks, and immediately asked borough when they met if the news of the extermination was correct. And when Berle replied that there could be no doubt, Petersburg's in had only one question. What are you going to do about it, but a shrug and the response what can we do was all the answer? He received in fact, this would become a majority voice within the policy community of the United St.. As government and even amongst many American Jews of the next four years, nothing can be done to save Jews until we win the war. Now, I'm not here to weigh in on the accuracy of judgement or the motivations which underlie it, but I can tell you without doubt that, Peter Bergson refused to accept it. And the result was the emergency committee to save the Jewish people of Europe, Bergson, and his men were able to overcome the incomprehensibility of such a crime, and the inertia of conventional thinking about how to react to it in a miraculously short period of time. And if the efforts of that committee for Jewish army have been strenuous in the activities of the emergency committee were, positively frenzied lobbying and propaganda efforts tripled quadrupled as did the necessary and successful fundraising on March ninth nineteen forty three only a month before the liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto began. Forty thousand people filled Madison Square Garden to watch Ben heck production, we will never die emergency committee. Had convinced New York governor Thomas Dewey, to proclaim the day of the pageant and official day of mourning in Newark state and the production struck such a chord that it towards six major cities at the opening Eleanor Roosevelt diplomats from over forty nations and hundreds of congressman field constitution hall in Washington DC, and listened in wrapped as the narrator declared before, our eyes has appeared the strange and awesome picture of a folk being put the death of a great and ancient people in whose veins have lingered for so long. The earliest words and image of God, they shall never die though. They were slaughtered with no weapon in their hands. Though, they feel the dark land of Europe with the smoke of their massacre, they shall never die. Like the rest of the world, the American public would only discover the full horror of the shore, when the allied armies liberated the concentration camps the end of World War Two, but thanks to the Bergson group, there could never again. Be a conspiracy of silence around the mass murder of European Jewry. However, Bergson goal was not just to raise awareness. It was to change policy and save lives in the summer of nineteen forty three after the failed Bermuda conference, which sought once again to address the issue of Jewish refugees. A full page ad appeared in the New York Times, declaring that quote, we all stand before the bar of humanity history and God. And we'll be judged blood guilty. If we do not create the machinery to save the Jewish people of Europe. Emergency committee was demanding the creation of a governmental agency one empowered to save the Jews of Europe something, which seemed like an outrage. Unachievable goal to the rest of Jewish America, especially here at the height of the war. But fortunately for the Bergson group, they didn't agree and fortunately for them and the Jews president Roosevelt, soon found himself under pressure from another source a working on projects to provide aid European Jews treasury department officials discovered that their colleagues over in the State Department were actually undermining the rescue efforts, for juice, when they brought their findings to the secretary of treasury Henry Morgenthau we will call his Jewish and a longtime supporter of the president. He directed them to prepare in fischel report entitled report to the secretary on the sense of this government in the murder of the Jews. I love a good title Morgenthau then presented that report the Roosevelt and requested that he established a rescue agency as the Berks in crew had demanded and it lasts the pressure reached critical mass. On January twenty second nineteen forty four FDR issued executive order nine four one seven creating the war refugee board. John, Pell of the treasury department was appointed as I executive director, now it's getting late, and now's not the time anyway to go into the arguments about it was as much as to be done, too. Little too late, especially as the already overwhelming amount of information is still growing daily, nor can I detail for you. Now, all that the refugee board did achieve estimates are that the WR, be may have saved as many as two hundred thousand Jews, the best known example of how they employed, their mix of economic aid visa wrangling, and outright bribery was their support of the heroic efforts of row. Wallenberg the Swedish diplomat who used his position as special envoy in Budapest, the saved tens of thousands of Jewish lives, and we can only speculate as to how many more might have been saved had the war ref. Gee bore established in August one thousand nine hundred eighty two when Gerhard Ridinger's telegram, reaching United States, and the State Department confirmed. It was true. But that's a question of speculation. Peter Birks in story doesn't end with the w Rb, or even with the end of World War Two, and certainly the growing sense that I mentioned of a fundamental distinction between what he called Jews in Hebrews, which will soon be known as Jusin Israelis has lost. None of its relevance, even in our day, but the next chapter of Berg, sins life, and the next chapter of the Jews, who managed survive the fires of Europe is bound up the struggle for Jewish national independence in the land of Israel, the forcing of the doors of earth, Israel, and that will have to be told coming chapter of our story. So before I think if you people actually just want to you honored to peril Bosch, we'll the hike. It'll Shmuel Ben own either in high Gaitho, but more high the rose whose memory should be for a blessing for their children, and for the Jewish people and their children's action to be a blessing for them and want invite you, if you'd like to sponsor show in the memory of your loved ones to be in touch with me at RAV Mike Feuer at g mail dot com. And in general, I want to thank the folks who give their hard-earned money to make the show possible, and I wanted to fight you. Join them go right now to route Mike dot com. We upper right hand corner. You'll see a button that says patron and you can click on through a little bit of podcasts support. I wanna thank the land of Israel network. That's the land of Israel dot com who creating a platform that allows me to reach so many amazing people. I wanna thank the institute, a R E S dot org dot I l for building an institution that allows me to touch the heart. The minds of so many wonderful juice. And I wanna thank you for listening. I'm rob my foyer, and this is Jewish story. Thank you for downloading this podcast from the institute of Jewish studies for more regional Torah content. Visit Ahmad par desks dot ORG.

Warsaw Europe Israel America murder New York City Hitler Stephen wise United States institute of Jewish studies Peter Bergson World Jewish Congress American Jewish Congress Poland Germany Congress FDR Franklin Delano Roosevelt founding member
S2 Update: SCOTUS Takes the Case

In The Dark

09:50 min | 2 years ago

S2 Update: SCOTUS Takes the Case

"This is Madeline baron host of in the dark. I'm coming too late Friday night with a special update on some breaking news that happened just hours ago in the case of Curtis flowers Friday afternoon, the US supreme court announced on its website that it will take Curtis flowers case the court will hear Curtis's appeal and will decide whether his conviction should be overturned. It's what lawyers call granting cert- this decision by the court to take his case is extraordinary every year. The supreme court receives thousands of petitions often as many as seven or eight thousand and of that number the court only takes about one hundred or so often the cases the court does take our once. It leaves have national significance as soon as I heard the news a called one of Curtis's lawyers on this appeal a public defender in Jackson Mississippi named Allison Steiner. This is Allison Allison, it's Madeline Barron. Calling. Oh, well, gee, you weren't refers person to call. We're very excited. I can imagine do you mind if I just record real briefly with you. Sure. Okay. So. Yeah. This just happened. So what did you think when you saw it? I thought this is wonderful. It is a tremendous moment. I. Well, let's put it this way. I've been practicing law forty three years. This is the only the second time happened to me in forty three years of. Wow. That this that the US supreme court has decided to actually hear a case yet you brought up before have you told Curtis? I have not been able to reach the office of would let me call him has closed by the time. We got this. Oh, no. I almost tempted to drive up to parchment and try break into the prison to tell him. But yes, were you expecting this? I was hoping for it. But the court almost never grant. Cert mean, it gets thousands of cases in grants almost none of them it. Yes. That is true. But I like to believe that as important as Curtis's case is to anybody who knows Curtis or knows the facts of what's happened in this case, I like to think that the United States prime court is still very interested in making sure that the Justice system that is in charge of operates fairly, and is not in my view poisoned by racial discrimination. Here's what Alison Steiner's talking about the court will look at a critical issue in Curtis's case the issue of alleged racial discrimination by the district attorney Doug Evans injury selection throughout Curtis flowers. Six trials. Curtis's lawyers have tried to convince the courts the Doug Evans has intentionally struck black people from the juries. Because of their race in violation of the US constitution and twice the defense succeeded in convincing a court of this happened, and courtesy his second trial, and it happened in the appeal of Curtis's third trial, but in his six trial. That's the latest one in twenty ten. It was different. That jury was also almost all white. But when Curtis appealed that conviction he lost so Curtis kept appealing all the way to the US supreme court, and the supreme court sent it back down to the Mississippi supreme court and asked it to take another look at the case. But the Mississippi supreme court didn't change its mind. The state supreme court upheld the conviction. So then Curtis went back to the US supreme court one more time to try to convince the court to take his case. Curtis's lawyers told the US supreme court that the state supreme court in Mississippi had gotten the case wrong. They argued that the Mississippi supreme. Court hadn't carefully considered whether Doug Evans, the DA had intentionally discriminated against black people in violation of the US constitution as part of Curtis's appeal, a group called the magnolia bar association filed what's known as a friend of the court brief and in that brief they cited the analysis that our team had done of jury selection throughout Doug Evans, entire tenure as DA the analysis that found that Doug Evans, DA's office struck black people from juries at nearly four and a half times the rate it struck white people the work, you did I think is vastly important to and at some point. We'll do I hope persuade someone Kurdish should not be tried to case should be reversed. And he should never be tried. Again. Alison Steiner told me that she thinks that the fact that the court took the case is a sign that they might rule in Curtis's favor and actually overturn his conviction. Well, it is. Often said that the US supreme court does not take cases just to affirm what the court below. Did. We must be optimistic. And I think we have reason to be that. This is a case that it would be very difficult for this court to brush aside. Unfortunately for critics, this doesn't change anything. He goes to bed tonight on death row, and he wakes up tomorrow morning on death row because until relief is actually granted. That's where he's. I wanted to find out what the DA Doug Evans made of all this. So I called his office late this afternoon. But no one answered I also reached out to the Mississippi attorney general's office. That's the office. It's representing the state in the appeal. I wanted to find out if the attorney general Jim hood had anything he'd like to say about the court's decision. A spokesperson got back to me. And sent me an Email saying quote pretrial publicity rules. Prevent us from commenting on ongoing cases late this afternoon. I also decided to call Curtis flowers father Archie flowers. I reached him at his house in China. What do you think Curtis will make of it? Probably the. Early. How is he doing earlier? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just happened. This is some big news. Logo warrior, though. Lord, BI weekly will makes you sleep better tonight. Yeah. All right. Well, yeah. Have a good rest of your night. Okay. You too. All right. Take care. Thanks bye. In the coming months. The US supreme court is expected to ask both sides the defense and the state to file written briefs after that justices could decide to schedule or arguments in the case Allison Steiner told me that she expects that the lead attorney for the defense attorney, Sherri Lynn Johnson. The Cornell death penalty projects or another Cornell death penalty lawyer team cure Waibel would argue the case for the defense. The supreme court will announce its decision in the case of Curtis Giovanni flowers versus Mississippi no later than June of twenty nineteen. We'll continue to keep you updated on the case. And it'll be releasing an episode later this month, re answer your questions anything you want to ask us leave us. A message on our voicemail at six six two five zero eight zero six four six again that's six to five zero eight zero six four six. We spent a lot of time reporting on what Doug Evans and his assistants. Did jury selection in the Curtis lowers trials and all the trials office is handled during his term as district attorney. You can hear that reporting in Rhode seven and eight of this podcast and one more thing earlier this week we posted tens of thousands of pages of court documents documents that we used in our analysis of the DA's jury strikes, you can find all those documents on her website in the dark podcasts dot org, again that's in the dark podcast dot org. In the dark is recorded and produced by me, Madeline, baron senior producer Samara free. Mark producer, Natalie Jabotinsky, associate producer, Raymond Tunga, car and reporters Parker. Yes. Go and we'll craft in the dark is edited. By Kathryn winter web. Editors are Dave man, and Andy cruise the editor in chief of APM reports is Chris Worthington.

Curtis supreme court US Curtis flowers Doug Evans Mississippi supreme court Mississippi Curtis Giovanni Allison Steiner Alison Steiner Madeline baron Allison Allison Jackson Mississippi attorney Madeline Barron Kathryn winter Rhode Madeline China
S2 E18: The Recusal

In The Dark

18:00 min | 9 months ago

S2 E18: The Recusal

"I'm Madeline Baron and this is in the dark. I'm coming to you today because I have some big news to report about the man who's prosecuted curtis flowers for so how many years District Attorney Doug Evans Boo. Since the very first time we spoke with Doug Evans I madeleine says Parker. He's always insisted on one thing. So are you confident that you have the right person. Curtis flowers is guilty. But we'll answer definitely no question about his guilt or never has he is guilty and he deserves to be convicted. And Doug Evans still feels that way in a document. He filed with the court. Late late yesterday Evans wrote that he remains confident in the investigation and the jury verdicts but Evans wrote in this. Filing he wants out out of the flowers case he stepping aside technically. He's voluntarily recused himself from the case and that means that after more more than two decades of relentlessly prosecuting the case six opening statements six closing arguments thousands of pages of court transcripts produced and motions since filed Doug Evans and his office are finally done in his filing to the Court Evans wrote quote. I've personally prosecuted the defendant in all six of his prior trials while remain confident in both the investigation Russian and jury verdicts. In this matter. I've come to the conclusion that my continued involvement will prevent the families from obtaining justice and from the defendant being held responsible people for his actions. It is for these reasons that I voluntarily recused my office from further involvement in the prosecution of the above styled manner and that same filing pulling Evans asked the trial judge judge. Joey loafer to appoint the Mississippi Attorney General's office as lead prosecutor in the case so far judge Lopez hasn't responded Evans filing comes just three weeks after judge lauper blasted the state at Curtis's bail. Hearing Judge Lopa was upset. That Evans. Vince had decided not to show up at the hearing. Evans sent an assistant instead. Angelo per was frustrated that Evans and his office hasn't responded to a series of motions. The the defense had filed judge loafer told the state that it would quote reap the whirlwind if it continued with its quote dilatory conduct DISC retires off the way you make an APP you William. I'm says Madeline Baron calling I was wondering if Mister Evans was in no he's uh-huh okay. Do you know where would be a good place to reach him here. But he's not here okay. Yeah was wanting to talk with him. Because I just read the silent he made before the court recusing himself from the flowers case. What's your last name Island Barren Dan? I could leave him a message but here I know. IRA well. How are things going in your office? Otherwise be business as usual off from one to the next. Okay okay. All right well I'll try back tomorrow on all right. Okay thank you. Okay bye but we tried back the next day several times but always got a busy signal. I sent Doug Evans an email. But he didn't respond. We also called Curtis's attorney Robert mcduff of the Mississippi Center here for Justice so This is a pretty short Filing with the court and I guess my main question is just what. What's your reaction? Well well several weeks ago. We filed a motion asking the judge to reach us. Doug Evans if he didn't voluntarily recused himself obviously he has now decided to recuse himself which I think is the right thing to do at this juncture later. He had no business staying on this case particularly given his record misconduct over the last six trials and at this point there is no reason to continue wasting taxpayer money and put it putting everyone through a seven trial. Curtis lowers is innocent and and Indus misguided prosecution which has been plagued from the beginning about misconduct. Racial discrimination should come to an end. twenty. Three years after the GATT. Have you spoken with Curtis about the news I have not. I've received attacks extra. His sister is I was as I was reading it and responding to press Calvo Steve Detector sister so they're aware of it as well but I've not not spoken to the mobile phone and have you talked to the office about whether it wants the case I mean I'm not in a position to comment about about About any conversations I've had with anybody about that the Pearson the filing that Evans's spoken with the Attorney General's heroes offers end and that they had agreed to take the case So I I'm assuming they have If they haven't I certainly hope they will take take. And what. What's next now in this case? Well I think I think the next step is for the Attorney General to step in and review the case and conduct an independent evaluation which I and I think that any independent evaluation will lead to dismissal to dismiss. Also this doesn't in your mind look like it's headed now for seventh trial. It certainly. Shouldn't it to trial and so it at this point I think you need any independent and sensible. Sensible evaluation of the evidence in this case will lead to a dismissal. And hopefully that's what's going to happen. I mean the problem problem with this prosecution is that it has been conducted by Doug Evans who has always been fixated on curtis flowers to the point of prosecuting him. Six Times in committee misconduct all along the way way even though there never was a strong case against him I guess my only other question is just how curtis it is. Postcard is doing. He's doing well he's Curtis's left Winona And he is at an undisclosed. It was location but You know he's doing he's doing very well you know. He's pleased to be out of prison after twenty three years. He is you know happy to be able to spend time with his family particularly during holidays and so yeah. He's doing well. What Nick told me that this is a positive development for Curtis matches? What we'd heard months? It's even years ago at this point from other people who work on alleged wrongful convictions. In two thousand eighteen. I talked with a woman named Nina Morrison. She's a senior Litigation Counsel Council at the Innocence Project in New York talking about what was at that point. Only a far out hypothetical what it would mean if Doug Evans stepped aside from the case VAT could make all the difference in the world you know. Morrison told me that a new prosecutor might have different political beliefs or different view of the criminal. Justice System I guess to me I wonder more about like the personal investment. In the case you know if you're negotiating with someone who has believed in this case so much that he's tried at six times. That person has already already been very clear about what they think about the case and you could understand why they would be reluctant to drop it versus just a new person who might not view the criminal justice system differently or or have a different type of politics or something but they just don't have that same personal investment like they're not the person who's tried six times and they're not the person who if they drop it now now people are GonNa say well. Why did you try to begin with right? Yeah it's it's it's always very difficult. I mean we the hardest cases that we've ever had to negotiate whether it's getting a new trial ordered or getting original charges dismissed have been the ones where the original trial prosecutor is still in office when they're gone you tend to get fresher is in a more objective. Approach doesn't mean we always exceed negotiating but it's a lot easier it now. It seems more likely than not that the Mississippi Attorney General's office will take the case. Then the agencies office would review the file and decide whether to try it again again seventh trial or offer curtis a plea deal or as the court to dismiss the charges right now. The attorney general is a man named Jim Hood. He's a Democrat and a former prosecutor. We asked him for comment and through spokesperson. He emailed us a statement. Jim Hood said quote Doug Evans Ends has been an honest law man and prosecutor for as long as I can remember my personal to bits is. The facts are sufficient for the case to be retried. Appellate courts are made up of humans. Just like us. All in extremely rare cases I have seen them at low emotions to overcome logic and tough cases. I've spent my entire your career believing in our criminal justice system. I know juries. Get it right. Ninety nine point nine percent of the time a fair jury should resolve this case. ONE WAY A or another end quote suggested believes that there's enough evidence to retry the case but Jim Hood isn't the person he'll be making the decision about what to do with this case if the office gets it. And that's because Jim Hood didn't run for reelection instead. He ran for governor and lost the new attorney. General Enroll is getting sworn in this Thursday. Her name is Lynn Fitch. She won election. This fall everybody. It has been very historical night and I'm here with the woman of the hour. She he is the first female to be elected to the attorney. General's Office Mississippi Treasurer Lynn. Fitch Ma'am congratulations. Thank you so very much. I'm so honored I'm so humbled the people that say missiles Kalinda Fitch's Republican unlike the outgoing attorney general. She's never worked as a prosecutor and she doesn't have a background in Criminal Law. She's currently the state treasurer in the days before the election. Our reporter Parker. Yes go found Lynn Fitch at an event and asked her about the flowers. Case was so. That's just the case you'll have to evaluated when I get into the office and look at the parameters as all cases anytime an attorney general comes into office you now evaluate what cases you have at hand which ones need to continue you. So I'll be looking at all cases when I get into the attorney. General's tried to contact Lynn Fitch today. But we weren't able to reach One person we did manage to speak with with someone with a personal connection to the case a woman named Cathy per mentor. She's the mother of Bobo Stewart. You're the sixteen year old. Who Shot to death at the furniture store? Her son had he lived would now be thirty. Nine years old our producer. Natalie Lansky talk to her on the phone. Hi Mr Mentor. My Name's Natalie to blonde ski and I'M A reporter with American public media Yes I am and I just wanted to give you a call to see if you heard the news that Doug Evans recusing himself from the flowers case we did hear the news last night. So yes Ma'am okay is is. Is that how you found out about it eight years. Yes ma'am well. I just wanted to call and see what your reaction to that is and just how you feel about it Not really happy about it at all. So you know definitely don't feel good about things for sure. I mean you know if if he thinks that's the best this thing for him to do then I feel like you know he. He's smart enough to know when he should not does it. Make me happy no. ooh I don't know who who's going to be in charge now so I mean you know I've always felt like you know if I had questions I could contact their office and show now just you know I don't know who I contact or if anyone would even will even talk to me about you know I'm hoping somebody will contact us and let us know and what it means for the case going next trial not or of what's going to happen. Is this so we start back at square one orange and we you know I just don't Y- and it sounds like you didn't get a heads up about it from the DA's office Um I didn't I know when was the last time you heard from them bail hearing you know he didn't show up for that. which as you know? We're all disappointed with so But and didn't know what was going on and and I did contact all his life of X.. Next Day to see if I could get any information you know about you but I get anything from anybody. Do you still feel like curtis flowers is guilty. O.`Neil Base just start out number if it was your son the other phone and it was your son. I can't imagine what you've been through. Nobody that he knows and Richard based on your I mean you know i. I don't want anybody to have ever have something like this. Is Their child taking away from somebody shoots the head you know not a child in a sense and just trying and work a summer job and let you some extra money and goes into work and what happens you know. So no scares you for Natalie asked Kathy for mentor. What she hopes will happen next next? Well I I just I mean I don't really know you know all that came up on the news last night and I saw I was just. I'm dating myself. I feel like I'm you know in the data and I and boxed in to where you know it's a wall a I know I don't know which way to turn our who to go to shooting or so you know. Yeah we'll get to swimmers definitely won't get just on. It's not right or fair So we'll continue to keep you updated on major developments in the case the best way to make sure you don't miss any big news. News is to sign up for email list. That way you'll get an email from us as soon as news breaks to sign up for email list go to in the dark podcast dot org also. I want to thank you to everyone who supported our work in any way this year by listening by telling your friends listen by donating money we really appreciate your support. Port in the dark has reported and produced by me Madeline Baron senior producer Samara premark producer Natalie. Jabotinsky associate producer Raymond Tunga car and reporters pucker. Yes go and we'll craft in. The dark edited by Kathryn. Winter web editors Dave Man and Andy cruise the editor in chief of P._M.. Reports is Chris Worthington original music by Gary Meister and John Even Sevens. This episode was mixed by Craig Thorson.

Doug Evans Curtis flowers attorney Mister Evans prosecutor Madeline Baron Lynn Fitch Jim Hood Evans Natalie Lansky Mississippi producer Parker Judge Lopa Office Mississippi Nina Morrison Vince Kalinda Fitch Joey loafer
S2 E19: Freedom

In The Dark

17:49 min | 3 weeks ago

S2 E19: Freedom

"Burn. This is in the dark I'm Madeline Baron Coming to you today with some big news the Mississippi Attorney General. Just announced that she is dropping the case against curtis flowers. After twenty four years and six trials. The case is over. And Curtis, is finally. Truly. Free. Curtis Flowers was just twenty six when he was arrested for the murders of four people at Tardy furniture in Mississippi. He was tried before an all white jury and found guilty and sentenced to death. He appealed and he won, but he was tried again and again on on. Six trials total. Years Awaiting execution. In, a solitary cell. Death row in Parchman prison. We started reporting on Curtis's case about three years ago we moved to Mississippi. Talked, to hundreds of people. I don't. Two to. Dan when my mind is. Him All. Witnesses for the state told us they lied under. Oath. Telling. People here now. We found that the science that was used to convict Curtis really wasn't science at all. That is absolute nonsense. We identified an alternate suspect. In the case you commit the murders tardy furniture. Did you dug through more than one hundred thousand documents we have now scanned all trial files at all. And we discovered a decades long pattern of racial discrimination in jury selection by the Office of the White District Attorney Doug Evans who prosecuted curtis flowers all six of his trials, the prosecution struck black. Almost, four and a half times the rate at which they struck white jurors. After we released reporting things started to change. People around the country began calling. Doug Evans Office to complain about his handling the case. Curtis received so many letters of support delivered to his presence cell. They could barely keep up with reading all them. A local paper causing Doug Evans to remove himself from the case. And the US Supreme. Court took Curtis's case conclude that the state did violate Batson soon I was convicted all those reasons. We reversed the judgment of the Supreme Court of Mississippi a few months. Later, a judge released curtis on bail and Curtis walked out of jail and into the arms of his family. Da Doug Evans removed himself from the prosecution and the case went to the Mississippi Attorney General's office. And Curtis has been waiting under house arrest in an undisclosed location to find out whether he would be put on trial yet again for a seven time. Do. Then just a few hours ago the Attorney General the State of Mississippi fouled emotion with the court. It said the state no longer had strong evidence against Curtis. It said quote. As the evidence stands today there is no key prosecution witness that incriminates Mr Flowers, who's alive and available and is not had multiple conflicting statements in the record. It. Went on to say quote the only witness who offered direct evidence of guilt recanted his prior testimony admitting that he was lying when he said Mr Flowers made a jailhouse confession to the murders. This was a reference to Hallman who told us that his testimony about Curtis Confession was all a fantasy. Moreover the motion said, the court was made aware of alternative suspects with violent criminal histories, an apparent reference to Willie James Hempel. As well as possible exculpatory evidence not previously considered. Motion concluded. Based on the totality of circumstances it is in the interest of justice that the state will not seek an unprecedented seventh trial of mister flowers. and. So the Attorney General of the State of Mississippi was dropping the case against curtis flowers. Almost immediately judge Joey lober the same judge who presided over Curtis's last two trials and to granite curtis bail back in December issued an order granting the motion. And just like that. The case against Curtis Flowers was over. We tried to reach the Attorney General Lynn Fitch, but she declined to comment. A spokesperson from her office sent a statement. It said quote. As a general rule General Fitch tends to refrain from seeking media coverage an individual prosecutions in an effort to decent sation allies the very serious process for the individuals involved. The families here. Deserve that respect. Curtis and his family decided not to talk to reporters today in a statement his family said, they wanted today to be a private day for the family to reconnect. Earlier today a group of defense attorneys who worked on Curtis is case over the years gathered on zoom call to talk to a reporter Yes. Go and our producers. Samara Free Mark. How are you feeling today socially distance jubilee there was Henderson, Hill and experienced death penalty litigator. delay but it sweet. There was attorney Sherri Johnson who argued Curtis case before the US Supreme Court. There is Tucker, Carrington who heads the Mississippi Innocence Project Lawyer Rob mcduff from the Mississippi Center for Justice who took over after the Supreme Court reverse Curtis's most recent conviction and there's Jonathan Abram an attorney from a big firm Hogan levels. We're all just on cloud nine. Afternoon when the legal team found out that the attorney general had filed the motion dropping the charges, they all got together and called up. Curtis. What we talk some shit of Dallas Cowboys I. Then, we got around the business. That business was telling Curtis that he was finally free. Our paralegal Ashley. Johnson who has just been an incredible force of nature through all of this was the one we all agreed would be the person to tell Kurtz. and. So that's what happened and there were tears and it was. One of the great moments just got a wonderful time talking and he was very excited and then. We arranged the monitor person, call him and tell them how to take it all. Curtis had been under house arrest for months. Now he's been wearing an ankle monitor and now today you can finally take it off. Took it off while we were on the call ball by himself because the. Guy was able to send a signal to the ankle monitor to tell it okay lead and take it off, and then he pushed something or something in it came off. So while we're on the call, the Ankle Monitor was removed. To what is the new student mean for criticism cases this Really, actually over. They cannot prosecute him again he's he's off. Bond is ankle, monitor resolve. Is totally out from under these charges after twenty three and a half years. Two words stood out in judge Lopez order dismissing the case. was dismissed, with prejudice, with prejudice To Dismiss, a case with prejudice basically means that it cannot be tried again that the case is actually finally over. Its business without prejudice. The prosecutor can can. Let it go for two or three years and then bring it back. But here we don't have to worry about you know Doug Evans coming back behind the torney general and charging curtis again, that can't happen. have to worry about a new attorney general coming into office and say Oh want to charge curtis hours that can't happen. So it's that that's exactly what it means. Did, did you see this as any sort of statement about Evans and? With this has been prosecuted before. Donald Begin WanNa go there. I think the order speaks for itself. But I think there is one thing to say, and that is when responsible prosecutors took over the case. You see the result. That result for Curtis and his lawyers was a good one, a joyful one, one of the lawyers called it and Curtis, his lawyer Rob macduff said that journalism played a big role in that result the dismissal of the charges today is the result in part of the work that that you all done within the Dr because the evidence. You've found during your very a very detailed investigation and it really really raised the profile of the injustice in this case has helped to provide the conditions that led to where we are today. And yet curtis still lost almost half of his life twenty three years gone spent behind bars. It's hard to wrap your mind around the the years but I'll say this teach my class the other night I've got a couple of students in my class who weren't born yet. When Curtis was locked up. But if you look at the evidence as presented to the jury, he should not have been convicted. So I mean I feel very happy at this result, I feel happy that a a neutral examination led to the right result, but he shouldn't have been prosecuted in the first place. and. There are more of those people out there too. And you're also data. That you collected. On All the felony case you know through the tenure that Doug Evans I mean I would venture to guess that. Single one of those cases. Has a color wall issue. Of Race. Bias. What about all those people? the work that Hogan Levels did with all the other capital cases of Doug Evans. What about all those cases? And we won this case. But what this case did was not solve the problem really but draw back the curtain on what is a systemic issue I look back on this case and I think of all of the events that had to flip positively for this outcome to happen the core, the Supreme Court had to grant cert. That was by no means assured thing you know and many other things had to flip positively for this outcome to occur and to me that alone says, everything you need to know about all the other cases because everything doesn't always flip the way off slip in the criminal justice system. Give this evening. Onto. The next. Move on to the next case. There is one more step that could happen. When someone's been wrongfully convicted and imprisoned that can sometimes get money from the state to compensate them. In Mississippi State will pay fifty thousand dollars for each year wrongfully spent behind bars. It caps out a half million dollars. For this money isn't guaranteed to get it curtis, I need to go through separate process Mecca take awhile. Months or even longer. As for Curtis himself although he decided not to talk to reporters today, he did release a written statement. In that statement. Curtis said quote. Today I am finally free from the injustice that left me locked in a box for twenty three years. I want to say that I believe there are other men men that I met on the road. WHO's cases deserve to be heard considered? I've been asked if I ever thought this day would come. I've been blessed with a family that never gave up on me and with by my side I knew it would. With their love staying in the word of God with the determination of my legal team and the countless letters words for my supporters. The day I've prayed for is here at last. Curtis thanked his lawyers, his supporters and his family. You mentioned his mother low flounders. Made me think of this time a few years years ago when I was sitting with Mrs Flowers in our living room and why? No? No. She said something that stuck with me ever since he is slow. Guy Don't work this thing. I do believe. Might not be when we want to do. is coming up. The Way Mrs Flowers. Saw It. No matter. How many trials took? No matter. How many court appearances? How many days in prison? How many long phone calls? Eventually one day her son Curtis would be free. Mrs Flowers didn't live to see this moment. She died two years ago. In a statement today. Curtis. said quote. I hope you're taking a minute to smile down on me. As. Far As we know, there are no plans to reopen the investigation of the murders at tardy furniture. Earlier today, we made one more call. We called the man who spent almost his entire career prosecuting the case against Curtis Flowers, District Attorney Doug Evans. The prosecutor who intentionally struck black people from the juries who relied on junk science who offered deals, jailhouse informants who then lied on the stand The prosecutor who's misconduct over six trials? Is the reason the case against curtis flowers dragged on for so long? The man who even now even after the Supreme Court found he violated the constitution is still the top prosecutor in this part of Mississippi. We call. Doug Evans at his office in Grenada. Employees pick up the phone told us. Doug Evans was not available. Tree Curtis Flowers full statement and today's legal filings can go to our website in the dark podcast dot org. Plans to talk with Curtis Flowers about what all this has been like for him and we'll bring you that interview here. One more thing. Our work has journalists is funded by you. That's what sets US apart finding. The truth can be expensive. There's no way around it. Just costs money to get to the bottom of the big story like this to find to talk to hundreds of people and to track down incredibly important documents that have gone missing or overlooked information that can make the difference between life and death. We couldn't have done it without you and we need your support to keep going. So please help us out by making a donation to in the dark today. To do just go to in the dark podcast, dot org, slash donate or text the word dark two, four, seven, four, seven, four, seven, and thank you. In the dark is reported and produced by me Madeline Baron managing producer, Samara free, mark producer Natalie Jabotinsky associate producer Raymond car, and reporter Parker Go. The series was edited by Kathryn. Winter? The editor in chief of APM reports is Chris Worthington. This episode was mixed Corey Schrapel original music for the series by Gary. MEISTER. Taga fee for the series by band up additional help on this episode from Lauren. Hovered.

curtis flowers Doug Evans attorney US Supreme Court Mississippi Tardy furniture prosecutor reporter US Madeline Baron Parchman Dan Mrs Flowers Sherri Johnson Mississippi State Dallas Cowboys Lynn Fitch Willie James Hempel Mississippi Center for Justice
Jack Black, 'Jumanji: The Next Level'

Popcorn with Peter Travers

18:59 min | 10 months ago

Jack Black, 'Jumanji: The Next Level'

"The the low everybody. I'm Peter Travers Travers Popcorn where we tell you what's happening at the movies and my friend Jack. Black movies are just like one aspect of his life. This little piece. He's my my world. It's a tiny little piece of a huge chunk. It's not a movie which you at one point started calling Jumanji Monje deuce but in fact it's Monte the next level it's true I was being cute. I just like to say deuce and it's also good. I actually like to say they did use. I like to put stank on it. That's what I call. He didn't do that. I make it extremely Stang. Well thank you for doing when I got to say though you could call it. JUMANJI use Jumanji next level Jumanji. Three Jumanji four of but really is just the further the adventures of Jumanji. I hope you heard that and so you now know what you could say to people when you go to the movies give me two tickets. It's too Jumanji. The further adventures. No one's going to question you if you just. That's it so you were you happy to get in and back into the professors I were. I was happy to slip back into my into my professor gear. My pith helmet the Bowtie And in the desert. It's got to be hot there. Yeah it was hot in the we had three. It's all about location. Of course like like real estate location location location and what's cool and this one is we have three locations that really count the jungle the desert and the snow and they were all magnificent and I asked my dad. I said Do you want to come visit the set. We've got these three choices. And and he picked the snow which I thought was weird because you could have gone to paradise in the jungles of Hawaii you could you could have gone to the gorgeous dunes but he loves the snow. He's a mountain man and he came and visited me in the icy cold. Same place where they shot the resident president while they found that icicle bears around. Yeah there was no bear attack but there were other creatures. I'm watching you in this year. Ryen Cammo you're getting chased by an army of ostrich. I don't know how all of that happening. I'm sure they wrangled. There's an ostrich wrangler. They're they're they're actually actually. Were no physical ostriches. In the move they were all made with you. Just you all yes. Yeah and It's funny because you think of of ostriches. Interesting Quirky strange creatures. You'd see at the zoo. You don't think of them as deadly birds of prey the scene but at the very powerful creatures are you didn't get to meet and he's ones are like prehistoric. I know I didn't get to me today. I'm not sorry. Clarified of giant powerful creatures. That are unpredictable. You're in the business full of them. Some say that I am. Yes interviewing dangerous injures animal. I've always known that you know. Yeah I did know you love that but looking you're back to your back with this cast of all these people that you seem seem to be actually having a good time with we did have fun. You know the rock to Wayne the Rock Johnson. He's doing this kind of amazing. Danny the veto voice. Yeah yes I thought I would never live to say. Yeah he got the funnest part man to play. Danny Devito is like everyone's dream. He's such a character and such a legend spans. But it's fun to just sit with Danny Devito and like pick his brain about his legendary edging dairy days because you think back to like his career for some I remember seeing it was Cuckoo's nest officer. Jack Nicholson now yeah. He had a little little part he was kind of a glorified extra. He was one of the people in the asylum but he was magnificent. It was beautiful little performance. And then you look at them from there and then taxi taxi back cast and he was right there in the middle of it and then on and on and then as an incredible producer. I just like picked his bran Dan overdid and in our cast and I bet the annoying him because I had a lot of questions you know he might have but no no one gave me the hook but well. That's nice. Yeah but initially when you're mixing and matching this time everything is. I'm the different Avatar. You're not that person then you get. I shouldn't I guess it's spoil her letter rip. You know because you get to be fridge fridge. The big football guy. That's right I said. But where's the teenage girl that I've ever I've seen before there was a Jumanji. I saw the teenage alleged growing. You always saw you know is always there are waiting to come in your heart. And where did you find her voice. I mean it's just. Yeah it's it's like you have it or you don't have a but the colors of the rainbow. I have all these different colors. allers and one of them is definitely BAFFONI. She's there waiting but you know also got fridge. I got a lot of I could. I could maybe do a one man show with all of the colors of my rainbow and you should maybe I should. I always have this idea of you. We're the people you wheels turning in my head right Jen. I'm saying lots of Broadway I've seen I've seen. I've seen the eyebrows if you look at your bio on Imdb they always say this is what you're known for and it just takes a career and reduces into nothingness and it says basically yeah known for his eyebrows and I re- I know and then you got dwayne the Rock Doc. Yes stealing my eyebrow game. He's trying to do that. He has totally broke game. With this. You know small with Iraq. But I don't even think he's got the control that I have but it doesn't doesn't matter it does matter because when you're six foot four ninety nine percent muscle your eyebrows are going to get more attention. Thanks a lot rock. I don't know I think you are eyebrows win. Thank you really do. That's just that's why I love your feet. I know there was a reason to be that we I know what I'm hearing and I wanNA hear it but I have to bring it up these interviews. You're giving saying this may be my last movie I'm retired. What are you like Quentin Tarantino? We know that and you just saying no. That's fake news. I like to show me the evidence of that. There's a lot of videos I might have said it. I say airlines I mean. Look someday we're all going to do our last thing but I always feel like like all of my movies of the last one. I always swing for the office. I was play it like this is my last chance you know they never said this part of the adrenaline. It's part of like turning being fifty. Is it that century half century mark. No I've felt this way from them. I've been very nice job when ager. Yeah no 'cause it's crazy is is you know it's too good to be true. You never feel like you quite deserve it You always feel like you're in danger fallen on your face and belly. Flopping there's a lot of stress comes comes with that you know what I mean and sometimes you just WanNa chill with the wife and kids and catch up on your red dead redemption part two. I guess when I heard that news and you know I'm just not buying any of this just can't possibly then I just did this run through in my head of the move of jet black. Yeah I'm seeing everything it's just going through my high fidelity I'm just trying to me. Was It lets through Ruiz. Padilla tie yeah. That's really the one that kicked it off. But I mean my first movie was Bob Roberts. It was glorious fun time. Kim Broadens your friend but it was it was a small role but it had a huge impact on me personally as because you saw yourself on the first time I was in a big go up on the big screen and and it went to the CON Film Festival Wall. Dan was not invited to go but I went. My father lived in. Can you flew down coming for a visit. And he was like. Oh my boys coming but mainly because I want to go to the best of all I love you. I'll be right back and I'm going to hang with the stars. Yeah so that was the one that but even before that my first real GIG was A commercial for video. Jio Game called pitfall nineteen eighty two It was Atari. Remember the Atari. Oh yeah the very first video. Like at the birth of video games and Sag Card that's how I really got into. Yes that's a tough hurdle when you're when you're outside of the industry and you want to get into ended the BIZ. You Gotta get that SAG card. But you can't get a job unless you already have a SAG card so twenty to catch twenty two right but you dean. We know this but even before that the first time I caught the fever it was at a Passover Seder A friend of the family's we went win over there and we had an amazing Passover and then the woman of the House Holocaust survivor. She said now. It's time time to play the freeze game. She was an incredible eccentrically. And she knew these Viola spokesman Improvisational Games and and we played these incredible games all night and I realized then when I was like nine years old that I wanted to do it for for the rest of my life that this was something I really was getting up on stage putting on a show playing characters people laughing at me and me being the center of attention. It was like a drug that hit me. ooh Real hard early on you. Know what I mean and and stretching its own. Aw nothing else gave me that sweet and what about that moment you saw yourself on the screen for the first time in. Oh well your natural Jack. A rough cut of Bob Roberts and I thought move. I'm not very good. I could have done that better. There was powerful regret but then by the time it was finished and it and it screened it. Can the editor had done some kind of magic and I was the land areas and the crowd was like and that's when I realized how important the editor is really important. They have so much power They it makes such a big difference now. A lot of directors like Tarantino will sit there with the editor and really they are editing and an end because they know which take they want and they. They've circled but Those editors Thank God for good editing. I'm trying to find that you at the half century mark. No he never make that off. That's acting as tasty. Oh yeah they'll fix it in post host mouth what we don't have the budget. We don't have a budget to that. We can't make the popcorn. Go in your mouth to do that. You know and I I've gotTA bring this up because it's like we talked about it a little before we started. You are a youtube star. Yeah Linski Games. I wait every Friday. Take for it to come on for a while. I waited for actually play a game. Yeah because there was a lot of talking. Yeah but then you do this with your son. Tell me about that Sammy and Tommy. Yeah making this thing becoming this youtube sensation they get a kick out of it. It's our TV show. Basically you can have your own. TV show anyone can. That's the great thing about Youtube. Yeah but anyone can be watched by their parents and maybe one best friend some some people only have yeah a viewership of one. Yeah But you have like over. Four million we have four million subscribers and it's It's been a crazy ride vet started because of my son. Sammy my thirteen year old. Boy He said you need to a gaming channel and I- resisted it for a long time and then finally I was like you know I'm going to give this a try and I said just tell me what to do. And he directed that first episode and edited it. Himself it's thirty seconds long. No posted it and uploaded it and I didn't know what was happening and suddenly it had ten million views this little video. Ah What the hell is happening and yet we've been having a lot of fun. The whole year has been a Jabotinsky a roller coaster ride. And you know. Sometimes you know you're busy you're making jumanji level and he's still on the last day of shooting in that sweaty the hot desert and you're going all the other actors. Yeah putting that right in their face and it's the last day like they don't know that maybe I was annoying annoying them. They didn't act like good actors though but it was really a way to give tribute to the entire cast and crew everyone everyone especially the crew working in the shadows work in their bodies off because they get a You know we were long hours twelve thirteen fourteen hours someday. There two two hours before US setting up breaking down. And it's a grueling gig. I really admire all those gaffer's leading people all the people that work behind the scenes in the south you guys work in the cameras lurking. Don't think I forgot about y'all tribute. He's saluting you tears every time you see a movie knows that there's hundred people especially in something like this year and it was cool to be able to give them a little spotlight on Linski Games. Oh my God I look at this. We don't have because we have you in the terrorist interview room not even close again who butter popcorn. Nobody butter would melt. Wow this is the outside world talking to you. You WanNa hear this question about from Ryan D.. Let's hear it Got Ryan P. He's here's what he's got. I cannot wait to see your teen girl performance again. Who inspired how you played that role? Well it could Blau who is it. There's no there's no one one singular person he is that girl I mean. Yeah that's just From my heart and soul but I guess it's yeah the thing about Bethany is she has the power. She knows that she's really cares. And that she's really she he pops and she's aware of and she and there's a power that comes with that with being the most popular girl at school and it just. There's not like one particular person that I think of when I play that role. It's just I don't know why I know how to do it. I don't know why they're it's just there. Okay one last questions. Since from Jacob will we ever see another tenacious d movie. Well you know a lot of people don't know that there actually really is a second tenacious. D movie an animated masterpiece dairy is known as post apocalyptic and you can only see it onto nation. It's just dot com. I did all of the drawings myself. And it's more of a slide show really than an animation. But I'm very proud of it. And when we performed live now we'd play the whole rock opera and its entirety and that we sit back good then the Tommy. It's we We just marvel at how how incredible this enduring classic that we created really is and we think this is going to be remembered. Long after we're gone hundreds of years from now people will look back and they will remember a little rock. Yes maybe we're diluted this that's how it feels a lot well it was speaking of and what this time to end in song now because of the time that we're gonNA sing right now. Always Sing Fuck. I know that you don't want to warn you. Get X. Y. is he I've gotta do each time. We live in with impeachment. Hearings goes if I love. restful I love. This song is due call. This government sucks. I'll rock that for you do it. Yes here's Jack. Black on impeachment. The government totally search government total research. Sir Alex Ben Franklin was a rebel. Indeed he liked to get naked rally smoked on the weed who was a genius but if he he was here today the government will say now. Let me tell you something about the government is up the end end of Bahrain. Man The take all the beautiful animals. Yeah and making them mixed no. Oh yeah the government totally search the government totally government tuneless. It goes on and I know no but I love how they're kyle did. You became another person could you do. I wish I could let me just give you one colonel like it. When he put the post I can't nothing can be fixed post? You know it you know Jack Black you are a great yes and one of the really good people year one of the wrong with at the United States of America so I thank you sir. Thank you get that always love to see you and hang out with you.

Jumanji Danny Devito editor Jumanji Monje Quentin Tarantino Dan Bob Roberts Linski Games US Peter Travers Atari Jack Nicholson Jack professor Sammy Jack Black Monte Ryen Cammo Bahrain Youtube
175 Our Really Big New Government

Makom Israel Teachers Lounge

40:22 min | 4 months ago

175 Our Really Big New Government

"Welcome to the mccomb. Is Teachers podcast where we connect students and listeners with Israel by discussing and exploring current events relevant issues? I'm your host Michael Unterberg here as always with co-host Allen Goldman. How'RE YOU DOING ALAN? I'm hot MIC real hot. Who thinks he's hot and after that uncomfortable greeting we welcome because you've made it uncomfortable wasn't uncomfortable. It's very hot here at his crazy crazy. It's crazy but we're not but we'll save traffic and weather for the tans and right now I WANNA WELCOME RECCO. Our political experts so that we can discuss our new government. How are you recall? I'm fine I'm also very hot. Yeah Yeah it's it's pretty crazy out there. I don't know what it means in terms of climate change or whatever but this is not normal weather yesterday yesterday by one hundred four. Yeah that's pretty good and you're not even like a super hot. You're like top of the hill altitude so Nicole relatively cool right. Yeah also it to the Jordan Valley. Yeah right it must be brutal. It was like mountains. Yes Interest Seltzer. Very very hot normally we better wetter but yeah we. All three of us live in relatively cool areas. And it's brutal. I don't know what it's like Today's not a good day to visit to Gannon that Jordan Valley area. You know there must be. I should check. It's probably brutal. I know my kids live and give small and it's well it's like also over a hundred every day all right well. That's what's really on our mind because I think we don't want to think too much about our new government because we are a little bit disturbed although again as we said last episode. At least there's a government do agree with Alan and I both feel pretty strongly. Wrecker that even with all the dysfunction at least we got here. That's at least a positive. Yeah do you agree like glass? Half I agree because we said last time we have to give them a chance and actually we have to give gant a chance. We haven't met him. Ability met him as a leading executing policies so we have to give him a chance. I think and I'm very very curious. Mainly because he got many ministers are they're very important ministries like his his people and I'm curious to see politicians. None of them. Many some of them have a political experience board in general data and hopefully the experienced. Let's see I think positive Because self-serve yeah finally will see the government working right exactly okay so now. That we've gotten the positivity out of the way I don't mean it has like we acknowledge if we because there there's some people who think that and I've seen commentary like this that that a dysfunctional set-up is worse than than nothing but I think something is better than nothing in this regard. Everyone has to admit this is a crazy. Bloated overstuffed crazy cabinet right. It is it will be well. It's the biggest government ever in Israel. We had never amount of ministers ministers and a vice ministers ever in Israel's history and when I work at the Knesset Guide. We always spoke about the government table in the middle of the of the Knesset in the plenary. You have a table in which the government will be seated. A normally will at their amount of chairs. They need in order to to seat. All the minister is now they have to add another table in the middle to have them all inside so with craze. You have more people sitting in the center of that of the Knesset that around the Knesset. I mean historically an eighteen minister governments like a pretty big government. Yeah and this is. This is how many thirty thirty six thirty one thirty six. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah. You'll appeared in his very sarcastic. Bidders speech when the government was being sworn in said right now there are fewer. Israelis in hospital with Covid nineteen on ventilators. Then we have ministers in. The government could put a minister next to every patient in a bed and still be okay for like that was his. Because he said look you're creating this emergency government for the pandemic but we're actually okay with the pandemic. We now have more ministers than we have sick people which was did you. Did you guys hear let speech or read it at all. Yes what did you think? Full of Logan's as La Beats like to speak. He speaks with slogans slogans. He said something. I know a reeling versus. He really back gant. They were partners for more than a year and attack began so so hard to that make them understood that they were not that united for this time. Like not even the beginning. I think it was hard to haven't together all the time. I think they were dealing with a lot of internal wars internal attentions whole the whole time so they just exploded. They united originally to be the center block. It was Close New Sorelle Israel. Resilient Party with pedes Ishak Tea Party. They work together to build a big enough balked. Go against bb guns decided relatively recently as no two to combine with bb to make an emergency unity government because of the coronavirus pandemic and La appeared. Was He didn't just disagree now. He is the leader of the opposition. He swore he would he. He's like basically I would never work with the person who guaranteed me certain things and now he went back on his word. I would never work with a person like that again. You none of us would ever want to be in a room with a person like then and he went. After I mean it was it was a scorched earth speech of how. He's going to burn all his bridges treat. His opponents like enemies. That's how I heard which I thought. Obviously we all agree with a lot of his criticisms about how bloated here it is. It's an emergency government. We're facing unemployment. And you're creating all these new ministries with politicians are going to have bigger jobs and they're gonNA get a driver in a secretary in an office here. We are through this financial crisis. And this is this. Is your emergency. A lot of criticisms were one hundred percent valid we'll get to the crazy ministries in a minute but it was the tone that to me was. I would say dangerous for democracy even that when you treat your opponents. President Bill Clinton used to say one thing that a politician needs to do his job. Well is a very short memory. You have to be able to work with people who yesterday you know messed with you and today you have to find a way to work with them. Because that's how you get things done at democracy. You can't you have to watch and know who you're dealing with. But you can't hold grudges that way and it was. I could not believe it. I mean it was D- do you agree with miracle. Did you also hear at that way? He s he was very very personal. And it's not. It's not the first time we hear lobbied with storms. Like after he he was in. Tanya's government two thousand thirteen and then he also ended in the same position. He was the head of the opposition. It was the same. It's not the first time you hear this lapels tone and I think people do not believe him like he thinks people believe him like again he. He speaks good. He writes very good but I. I'm not sure that people actually believe him and we'll support him the next time. I'm not sure because of that town that you sell it's very yes. It's not good politics for him. You're saying yes is the way. He's a politician but we we've never saw him really acting as a acting and doing something leading only the beginning when he started. You should party but afterwards he was just in a position speaking the way he likes to speak there. It's the way we heard him in on Sunday. Did you Allen? So I think I speak a little bit and Lupita defense here. Excellent that so first of all he hasn't been he's been positioned since he left the government. Whatever year Remember when that was but you know. When he came into politics he joined to how government and then you know felt betrayed by Alston that political game and since then he's been in the opposition with his main goal is to dethrone to the right and he joined up with guns to dethrone that to the WHO ran. They fought together in the trenches for the last five hundred day. Whatever has been right over a year? They've been fighting together in the trenches to dethrone the tomato and now all of a sudden if I can use the war analogy. The guns went over to the enemy. He feels he feels like he you know. He was betrays a traitor. I think you really sees Betrayed him and his traitor to their cause and and in today's politics in today's plays politics. The Knesset has always been of a civilised where people say crazy outlandish things and then six months later. They're sitting in the look of God's talked about each other right up until now they're sitting together so I don't think was any less but that's Lupi has been saying and I hate being the prosecutor but I agree with you that the animus and the vitriol are not new in the Knesset or in any government. But then then you then you turn the page and you start working on you start at zero. You start at Rebuilding give you examples from Israeli and American politics of what I'm talking about. Okay look everybody knows that Rabin parents had terrible personal animosity right. Everybody knew it it. Leak secrets there are no political secrets. Everybody knows everything but in public and stabbing each other in the back trying to get control of the Labor Party but in public they presented a united front and everybody kind of knew it was false. But that's the game and that's how you work because ultimately the your rate here's a really stuck out to me when the Pete said. Look Netanyahu you talk the way you're talking now where we all know behind closed doors what you say to each other and we all know what you say behind each other's back that kind of language of course that's true we all know it's true but that should not be the public political conversation. But he's he setting himself up as the head of the opposition still guided dethrone Netanyahu and all those people who are angry at counts. He wants be their leader. Right Graham over to me now and that language gets them and that's I think it's politics as usual. That's all I heard doing naked across the line. I think that crosses lines. I think saying never ever worked with you on anything in the future Burns a bridge. You never burn. Bridges look during the during the during the Republican primaries for the nineteen eighty election. George H W Bush the Father Herbert Walker. Bush really made fun of Ronald Reagan. And he said that his whole economic plan was Voodoo Economics. And you know he's he's not a serious guy. He became the vice president. Ronald Reagan for eight years. Because Reagan said. I know that's politics. It's a hard ball game. We take our punches. But then it's time to work together and we drop it. What the pede said to his followers were scorched earth. There is never going to be a way to work with guns on anything ever again. Now I guarantee you within the next several months there are things for the good of the nation that Lapierre should cooperate with Godson. Say That so say look. I'm as the leader of the opposition. I'm going to criticize this. I'm GONNA criticize that. But I'm the leader of the loyal opposition. And so you know. Let's hope for the best for everything don't I don't think you're you're I don't think you're built your Responding to how the politics works in the speeches they Knesset Falls as much more than me what she thinks like you said in the Knesset. They can say anything they want. And it's very like we have to understand actually will heard like heus. Actually they are sticking to the public. Okay the Knesset is both gusted life. People will see it and people will hear it. But he's taken to the members of the Knesset and as you said by the end they will have to work together anyways the opposition in Israel. They will they will always say their new position. They cannot do anything and it's the opposite. I think today the Knesset's a little bit. Because of this government the Knesset and the work of will be weakened why it week why because the the the ministers and vice ministers cannot participate as members of the Knesset in the Knesset commissions so they cannot be there because of course the role commissions. It's to celebrate and to criticize the work of the government so they are not allowed to participate as members of the Knesset so that gives the opposition a lot of power because they are members of every commission and they can actually influence in the legislation very very much specifically in this kind of huge government so it has a lot of space a lot of room to work and to try to influence. Of course he doesn't have the majority but they and right the issues of in the agenda and they can influence more than even in other businesses. That the minute that the government. It's not that big. Of course that is something that will make the Knesset not very efficient because the members of the coalition that remains in the in the commission which means they are not minister are very few they will have to change commissions all the time they will be members of a lot of commissions and actually the work of the qualification in the Knesset. Those days when be harder than the opposition because position they clearly can use the Knesset in their own favor if they do it in an intelligent way and for some that's how they are work because the are parties they always in the position and they are able to influence from inside the Knesset even from the position of course so I I hope that appeared takes this and instead of criticizing and thinking how he will never work with guns again he said. Okay now where we will influence. Try to do something from here. Well I think he's going to have to. Which is part of what makes the language silly. I always saw lobbied for better for worse as the guy who wanted to be a factional leader. But who wanted one day to be Prime Minister? Now maybe he's reconciling himself to the seeming truth. Which is he'll never be national leader but this is nothing language worked for BB. He sees it worked for BBC that language. And that's why bb won't be remembered. As the great national leader that his his legacy is tarnished by his factionalism and self interest. And it does look. I is it precedent in an Israeli history. Short is a president American history. Sure but I have much more credit to guns who actually quoted Lincoln's second inaugural in Hebrew which was super cool you with charity towards all with malice toward none. We're GONNA rebuild from this. He said it's like it's almost like we have a had a civil war and now we have to rebuild and I think that's the tone of a leader and not a politician and I think I think I think it was not only in the speech but I think in his decision making in my mind in my little dumb pundit share sitting here on my sofa recording a podcast I think ons came across much more as a leader. And the pecan chorus much. More as a politician heard yesterday's interview to interview if you're heading television with the Atlanta Diane Program. I highly recommend that because she asked him many questions as we are speaking about now. What about what happened inside? What happened will be like very like schmoozing inside what really happened. But one of the things again said. He's learning to be a politician because he's not a politician like politics that much but he wants to be a leader and he wants to be to do the best things for for Israel and try to to late Israel and he's learning politics and I think he's learning politics in a very very harsh way like they're slapping on his face. Those politicians trying to learn his way. Well he's like it but I don't have any. I want to be here and I will learn what I need to learn even learning from Netanyahu learning. Because he's a good politician need to take some things for development and he's in a position like okay. I knew on it in this and he could be. Prime Minister doesn't have any political experience. A tough game. It's look one of the things I'm doing now in lockdown even the things opening up a little. You know you take on little project. I've always wanted to read Churchill's World War Two memoirs four books for Pretty Thick book so I'm now in the second volume and one of the things that's striking in real time. Is You know. Here's a guy who leading up to World War. Two whatever the pluses and minuses are of Churchill in the years leading up to World War Two. He was warning that we have to deal with Germany. Now or it's going to erupt into something much more difficult to deal with and obviously history proved him right and you know so. Now he's in the position of told you sewing and ridiculing Chamberlain and all these other politicians from from his opposing party and he's so respectful to them and he defends them and you know he says okay. They were wrong. We're all. We all happens to be my predictions. Were correct but they were so they did it with such fervent loyalty and once the facts came around that I was great. The level of service that they provide you know he's such praise for almost all of his political opponents and I would even say he has. He has a certain respectful tone towards even even even enemies German generals or Italian generals that he says you know. Obviously they did terrible things but you know here. It's to me an and and maybe you're right maybe I'm remembering with Rosey colored glasses and it's definitely different in Israel than in other countries but there's a certain. I don't think democracy can work without civility. And when you burn when you when you when you scorched earth like that. Is there precedent Israel by the way? I think you don't have to go pass Bandari into find a kind of scorched-earth rhetoric but I thought we already divisive leader very diverse. Gory you talk about legacies. His legacy is amazing but he was very divisive. Leader corrected a crazy time of taking a nation building out of nothing. But if you want a democracy to grow and sustain and to nurture. I think you know look begging. Begging was the loyal opposition. And except for the Holocaust reparations issue I think he played that role with real and I'm not going to judge him one way or the other on the Holocaust reparations issue where he really went you know that was going to bring a civil war in so so at least in perception so so that issue is one that he really. I think. Cross those lines of rhetoric but other than that. I think he was a model. Both out of power and empower of how you talk about your opposition. You disagree strongly. You fight hard and when the battles over but even during you still stay respectful and civil but the but afterwards you have to reconcile because this work you're going to have to do together. It's such an elementary concept. Anyway I don't want to just whatever I think your over your over exaggerating the rhetoric. I was shocked by that speech. I was shot. I can see and see. I wish you would never. You would never invite them into your house. You wouldn't want to be friends with them. You would never sit across the table. Never go to lunch with them. Why would I ever work with a person like that? He didn't even say he didn't give him a courtesy of saying his name. And this after God's really I thought was you know a very look. I know we disagreed. We fought hard to this. We disagree respectfully but now work together and La Pizzas through it in his face. Okay so I want to switch because where I think I think. I'm at this point ranting. So ABC therapy session for you. I think I think that's what has become an thank you thank you group. My name is Michael. A I am a political addict obsesses. Yeah Okay so crazy too many ministries. Let's try to do this. At least maybe a little bit of a lighter way. What do you think is the dumbest new or changed? Ministry will start with a cow and then Allen and I'll give mine. Let's see if we pick different ones. Okay things they're like a theory ministries okay. Because all of the ministers that they gave up they were part of other ministry. There were projects developing in in the government. Or something like that and they are not the have things to work on. They will even half budget but they are kind of series. Because you have. You don't have to assign a minister to every issue we have in this country like the idea. It's two one. Minister has to take care of different issues. Because they deal was to to include everyone in the deal and to Split half-and-half Equally. They needed to split and gave up a lot a lot of ministry many ministers and blue. I have a bunch of ministers but come on. I'm not saying the issues are important. I'm saying don't you think some of these are silly to have a minister in charge of? Yeah well everyone. In Israel at least are making fun of the Ministry of Water Falcon Got Thirty Who's in charge of water? Which is the first time in Israel? We have this only water and about the university's gather so he's in charge of the universities. Houston trash of the water. So he doesn't that people are making fun of a water ministry in other words need to because it's I also checked. In most of the like many many countries they have a ministry who's in charge of water specifically in the Middle East and Africa which is a main issue. So I'm not against that actually the crazy and it's broken out. Everybody needs to rally to making fun of it like what he did like everyone so singularly with higher education right that sounds the same guy will will will be in charge of those two issues. I don't know how he would. I don't know how he was played himself in these two ministries and the Minister of Water. Would we can be together with the Minister of agricultural or energy or from other things right. It's taken out of of course. That's that's how you can see how hard for Netanyahu to deal with his with a Likud members. He didn't have enough ministers to to give to the to the Likud Emerson. He was supposed to sworn government on Thursday. He didn't do it because he he had internal issues with the Likud party because people were mad because they wanted something else because they wanted salting so he had internal issues. Giving all these ministers to different regrettable on of course we have more important ministers. We have less important ministries and if the now gave are important ministered to you it means that for Bibi. Netanyahu are important or not that important. So that's ridiculous that they could members were fighting that much for ministers. They're like more important less important instead of giving up. Actually we had some members of the Likud that actually gave up to some to some requirements. For example. I heard an interview. Maybe nobody heard it with the chaloner scale. She's from the Likud party. She's very young and she's very good like she's very couldn't she's very good and being gone said well. I have nothing to give you maybe to be bothering Australia. And she said don't give me anything I will be a member of the Knesset. I will try to do my best member of the Knesset. Don't send me away because you just have to give me something. We have these kinds of people that are also just gave up. Even need of our cat knew he was mayor roussel him and he was expecting to be the mayor of treasury like a while ago now he said okay. I received anything this time and will not as you said. I cannot burn the bridges with Netanyahu will not get than just doesn't make any war here. I will sit down of the Knesset and maybe next time you'll get something maybe to get on SARS which was. There's no shame in Connecticut that used to be Thing and what I think. The Knesset has to have that power they have to have to legislate. If there are too many ministers again they're neglecting kness. So that's something we have to take into account yeah politically. That's part of why I think the nation is so frustrated. Really you'RE GONNA do. This is an emergency government. In your all jockeying for some dumped idle. Because you think it'll be you know it'll look good political CV. And I think it's I I actually think it. All as as Rocco saying that weakens the Knesset government. Because it's clear that they're not going to be making decisions with thirty five thirty six ministers that it's GonNa come down to very small groups within that so it's a little bit ridiculous not sorry. Excuse me I think that. That's really the the the the biggest problem here is that Adult like the whole point is bring stability in government and I really wonder such a bloated government and such ignoring of the power of the Knesset and they sponsor the important to the Knesset is GonNa end up bring stability. I guess. That's my backing from. Last week was saying oh stability almost any costs but I. I don't know if something like this cab. Bring Stability Through Maya. Just want to point out that recommend that. Elkin is doing higher education and what resources but only for eighteen months these which transportation which Kaviv in the red in the friends of the podcast set in his column in The Times of Israel. He said making a minister for eighteen months. You're just getting started. And so if you create an eighteen you need the four years to sort of learn what you're doing and get rolling at eighteen months you know you've you've now learned you got your training bills off and you're ready to go and now you're gonNA switch which means it's probably not gonNa Work Anyway. Go ahead what's your choice isn't big learning curve. I just saw it carries Mike for you to put the link of us on our with a podcast. Great article it was. My my question is again over ticketless enough. That's the David solemn veto solemn is a minister responsible for liaison between the Knesset and the government seems like a very absurd Minnesota state people. Same Room say people and also I'd like you have like a speaker of the Knesset headed Knesset isn't Like his department like of of between and you have you know other the whips whip of the party like like. Aren't these jobs that are? That's the point of them. I think he he will just bother the work between the government. It's another layer to me. It seemed like you know in a Sitcom when somebody's like well. I'm not speaking to someone so in there in the same room so you tell so and so and then you know the the so and so will you tell them and then the person the middle is like enough. That's how I'm picturing the Salam I also have to. I would also like to point out. One more thing it's not a important ministries that they got because they got those two ministries so that created this whole right is not only the fact that there's people getting ridiculous or things that have been broken up at that because they had to give to other people right. So for instance the Labor Party that brought into ministers to people get to ministries or right or Derek. Errands Party is one person he comes in. He gets a whole ministry because of this posing them saying okay we understand situation where and will will will take a issue. We'll take a deputy. We'll take a committee headed for him now again. Labor taking the welfare and the importance yes. That's that's an important part of what Labor's they're out but now they forced this bloated government which is taking all this money. That seems to be a little bit of a contradiction in terms of Labour's ideals right. They could've taken the finance committee which is now gone over to the Haredi Party to be the finance committee which is a huge import committee. Exactly and that's that's a super board committee that's why creating the learn to use the system and we'll people know how they will so much power like there's such a small because they don't they don't grab those big. They're holding the purse strings yet. They're not grabbing the big chairs up top. But they are holding the the port committees that work the budgets and the funding. All of this is I. Think all vow that Lapierre. In his speech that shows that. This is bloated and dysfunctional. Just again I wish the tone was different. I I tell you guys my picks okay. My favorites are the minister for strengthening and advancing community. Which let's be honest. Broker like most of these are real issues but I don't think need ministries minister for strengthening and advancing community a job that I heard like she. She's going to with the Minister of the Jaycees the standards she will do what is that he also like a mini party that needed to see from Gesher a one person Party so they made a ministry center. There's going to be in office with a secretary and a driver and a security detail for the minister for strengthening advancing community. And I would also say I don't know I think it might be a tie. The Jerusalem and Heritage Minister deal the minister of Jerusalem. Yes it's nothing you know. It's okay but come on Jerusalem and heritage because Jerusalem is the capital and brings all the tourism but of course you do have tourism minister but okay tourism minister and Jerusalem has a mayor just for you to know we are the country. We're we're with most ministers in the world like there's no other contrary that amount of of ministries even ministers like even even countries like a really similar tools like Austria our or Norway like in the way that politics works. They don't have more than fifteen twenty ministers in Israel. They tried to get into the negotiations and get to deal with amount of ministers instead of speaking about other waste negotiate which is not the only thing that you have to negotiate when you're in agreement all right well laws negotiate projects you can negotiate budget to have to be on power in order to influence again you. Can you can negotiate a specific amount of budget for your own interest and you do it via the Knesset with loss. So you have to head a minister in order to influence and to to demonstrator your ideology or your the way you want to see the deedee the country going to so you know when when Jabotinsky skin triple do. We're working on creating the Jewish Legion during World War. One one of the things that Jabotinsky was say jeopardy said to tripled or you know. I don't know how we'RE GOING TO GET PEOPLE TO MAKE ALIYAH. Like just aren't so many great jobs yet in Palestine Palestine You know I don't think people are gonNA NECESSARILY WANNA leave better careers here to have harder work for less. Pay Their and triple just said. I don't think you understand. What Zionists are you know if you need a hammer? I'll be a hammer. If you need a wrench wrench whatever you need. Whatever the nation needs. That's what we'll do and that's not the spirit we're seeing in this drive to. I need a ministry of this and I need a title that so so again. We've talked about why there are so many ministries. How how you know. Netanyahu needed it to create this quote unquote stable government and why it's so different from all previous governments and all governments as record pointed at around the world and some of them seem strange things split in weird ways so as we close up. Guys I want your most optimistic spin on this. Because we opened with positivity I wanNA close also with no with with a positive takeaway because because there is a lot to be worried about and a lot to be concerned with. I don't want you know not a silly. But but so he's trying to think of how I have one potential. I will say I was influenced by views thinking on this. I've been influenced by US thinking on this. Which is the potential for a leader emerging this gone potential for emerging as a national leader? That we need that as opposed to even though it's a blow governor this like he put I think he recognizes that but he. He saw his deadlock need to be broken some way and he was willing to even fall on the sword. A little bit right with all that stuff. We've been talking about and I think that that has potential In a very positive way to build up his national image in his political standing and like raquel the interview that Raquel like his his seeming autheniticity. you know and that he could emerge from this. You know this could be much better than people predict. It could actually be gamble. We all know to gamble but it could be a gamble that he will replace the Seattle and bring a certain amount of you know legitimacy authenticity that we've been missing for the last year and a half or a little bit more than that to the to the government. That's pretty good though. Well Okay we have a lot of ministries even too much ministries. While there's a lot of new people there that it will be very interesting to see how they work new leadership. I lost her of young people. Over there being ministries we have the youngest ministry. She will she will be the minister of minorities I think. From from Hala van she's thirty four ministries are thirty six thirty nine years old. Being being minister sexually and leading our ministry. That will be interesting to see them. Were also people from minorities leading ministers like at the Manor Shutter. She will be the first European minister a history a history. She will win a ministry of assertion and Leah so that that means that they often opportunity to new leadership there in the beginning of their career as politicians and they can be very promising so okay. They gave too many ministers. The New People that are around there could be the next the next generation of leaders of political leaders of Israel. So we have to see how how it works and I think that could be a very good opening for knowing the new the new the new guys over there who will be the future of the officials politics oh I found both of those ideas very comforting. Both of them of course are based on the idea that something will change and be different than than the status quo and that. This may be leading to something better in the future which I think what you have to say that that we're past the deadlock and now we're in this weird. I don't know bloated government dysfunction time but hopefully this is our gateway into a better and brighter future. So I personally appreciate you giving me Your Optimistic Spin. It makes me feel better. Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting again. Sure thank you out. Sorry let's see what happens with this government. We will have another. Oh we're going to keep sixty how it works for a month and we'll have another gus analyzing how it worked for one month excellent. I'm going to take. Yeah GonNa keep you gonNA. I'm not GonNa Forget that offer Allan thank you update God. I hope so allen thanks thank you Mike and Special. Thank you to Ben for engineering US throughout this entire episode till the end which this is by by thanks for listening to the mccomb. Israel Teachers Lounge podcast. Don't forget to share subscribe rate and review. Join US next time.

Knesset Israel Netanyahu Allen Goldman The Times Knesset Guide Likud party Knesset government Labor Party Michael Unterberg mccomb president Jordan Valley secretary Lapierre ALAN Prime Minister gant
Coronavirus in the Delta E2: Parchman

In The Dark

30:31 min | 5 months ago

Coronavirus in the Delta E2: Parchman

"Hello this is a prepaid coal from. How're you doing just grant Harrison and I'm Paul you inmate at the Mississippi deal see Mississippi State Penitentiary Earl. All these men are calling from inside. Parchman prison prison deepen the Mississippi Delta Prison. That's notorious for its brutal conditions from Union thirty debuting Delta inmate number four on March we sent letters to prisoners new in parchment asking. Talk to them about how things were going word. Got Around and a reporter. Parker guest goes phone started. Bring all you get them at that point knowing one Hartman had been diagnosed cove nineteen but we kept reporting and within six weeks to inmates had tested positive for the virus and one of them died not a widespread outbreak. Not yet six weeks two cases and one death. This is a story of those six weeks told by the man who lived it from inside. Parchman prison This in the dark corona virus the delta. I'm Madeline Baron. I spent the past two months along with the rest of the in that our team reporting on Corona virus in the Mississippi Delta the poorest part of Mississippi one of the poorest places the entire country in this series. We're bringing you stories. People trying to live in this really hard time trying to make decisions trying to get by in a situation that none of us have faced before episode to patch March thirty first. Hello Hey how you doing? Anderson calls a reporter Parker Gasco from unit. Thirty eight at Parchman prison man. The phone the phone is terrible quality. Does it always sound like this? Always Sound Oh. My Gosh Randy was convicted of murder in nineteen ninety seven when he was twenty. He's been in prison ever since his lawyer is rigged up. No one day. My Work Monday might not work patrons. Unit thirty where Randy lives is basically just a big open room laid out in rows and how many guys are in the dorm there at least two. Tv's and Randy's zone there on all the time during the day the TV's mostly play sports an old movies like this one day. A bunch of guys are gathered around watching Jim Carey movie. It control I venture control. I mean check it in the evening they watch the news local news come on their find world news from on thirty watches the news every night and so by this point in late. March Randy already knows a lot about this new virus. The Corona virus fears. He also knows what you're supposed to do to protect yourself from the virus. He's heard the experts talking on the TV. Wash your hands distance yourself from other people but doing all of that in prison. It's pretty much impossible. Like take social distancing or whatever but in Randy's zone the big room there are about one hundred and eight men. They sleep in bunk beds. The inmates call them racks and the space incredibly close together. The banks are so close together. That when you're lying in bed I the Knicks. Read all without getting out of bed view. Books you up like that if they take washing your hands first of all. Parchman doesn't even have hot water. Some of the time and the water. That does come out of the Faucet that you're supposed to use to wash your hands according to Randy. It's Filthy Jeff. The water around Sunday. Have a real bass mail sewer. Yeah we have the backup from Seoul. Sewage yes fan so this is this. Is the water used to wash your hands and drink and the water you wash? Hand was awarded. You Sal the water you right. I mean that's the only water we have and this combination of randy knowing what he should do and the reality that there's no way he could do it in these early days in late March making him pretty anxious just trying to cope with it. You know. Try to keep up and try to keep praying hoping he'll get worse. I don't get better. I don't I don't do the past year or so particularly bad when it parchment even before the pandemic since late December twenty inmates have died including five who appeared to have been killed by other inmates and three appear to have killed themselves. Videos and photos surfaced on the Internet. They showed overflowing toilets flooded hallways inmates fighting blood smeared on walls buildings filled with fire and smoke rats roaming the halls sewage water flooding cells in the summer the temperature easily climbs to one hundred degrees. Because there's no air conditioning and on top of all that sometimes as many as several hundred cells are without electricity so no lights at all and the inmates are stuck dealing with these conditions in rooms so dark. It's hard to tell the difference between night and day earlier this year. A group led in part by the rapper. Jay Z helped to file to lawsuits on behalf of inmates to try to improve conditions at Parchman. One of the lawsuit says quote. The conditions of confinement at Parchman are so barbaric the deprivation of health and Mental Health. Care so extreme and the defects and security so severe that the people can find parchman live miserable and hopeless existence confronted daily by imminent risk of substantial harm in violation of their rights under the US Constitution now. The prisoners new probable a highly contagious virus. A virus that could easily sweep through the narrow hallways crowded dining halls and rows of bunks and infect them that's happening at a lot of prisons and jails around the country right now. There's some places with outbreaks of hundreds of cases and a single prison guys at Parchman. Prison know about these outbreaks. The hear about them on the news and they spend their days wandering win. Covert nineteen will arrive in Parchman and yet by late March there is still no confirmed cases inside Parchman prison but that is about to change April first randy. Hey Randy how you doing this rumors studying to fly around. Randy's unit rumors that maybe Parchman Guard is caught. The virus could be spreading it sometimes. The guard and these rumors is a woman sometimes. It's a man. All kinds of stories getting passed around South Float in twenty nine father in. How'd you hear that funded through the grapevine? So how how are you doing? One is like you're not worried at all and ten is really really worried. They can you already at ten. That's why man. I'm really worried about because the prison isn't telling the inmates much basically everything. The prison does especially anything out of the ordinary. The inmates view with suspicion as possible sign that corona virus has entered the prison. Like Randy says that just yesterday guard showed up and moved everyone out of the zone for few hours so they could clean it just to clean up auto. We didn't come back Blah. They took you to the gym so they could clean the unit. It really WANNA clean. Just come in and and just wipe down while love polls and there was A. Is that a normal thing or is that new yesterday. That's the first time they've ever come in and done a big clean. Andy Wonders. Did the prison cleaning zone as a precaution or did it clean it. Because someone who'd been on the unit had corona virus things like this only make randy and the other men in his unit feel more anxious so people have started trying to make masks for themselves around how and Fox on stuff all pat around in my office and stuff like that. People got towels on their face or sucks. Yes ma'am I mean. Look real stupid. You know what I'm saying. You GotTa talk where your mouth you know you can look at it in. It'd been weighing. Do you put it on your face. Some of the Gaga small face blows mall. They had to run to the back of some guys. Did they got the big towel around. If they some guys for the socks on head at some put a towel around his back. That's like my blanket. Just rapid task spring around it and it's happy directors this go around and y you know and my seat like. I guess you just build a chain around your rack you know just block it block off some of the germs. Every night you do this you hang a blanket and a sheet over the side of Iraq black the whole thing off basically from the outside. I think just just pray and go to see Aaron and I'm empowerment. You Eddie. Errington lives in a building across the prison from Randy and unit. Twenty six the men on unit twenty-six where special green and white striped uniforms and travel all around the prison to lots of different buildings to do much of the work that keeps parchman prison running man. There's a conflict in the building somewhere it does make them feel drive tractor. Cook a clue that guys unit twenty-six are generally speaking quieter bunch. The men live in groups sometimes seven or eight little alcoves along the edges of a big room. The inmates call the little alcoves cubes. The Cubes Make Unit twenty-six. Seem a little less like a warehouse. Then the wide open room with all the bunk beds in it randy lives in a lot of the men on unit. Twenty six are religious. There's a weekly prayer meeting here where an inmate named Earl. Dyke's leads the guys in Bible study it's near Eddie's Cube you have our Church Cau- funding you know hair bannister protocol. You go up there in the with has been in prison for thirty seven years for killing two people. He has a morning routine. He wakes up every day before dawn when everyone else is sleeping leaves his cube and goes into the day room to drink his coffee and revival in the morning in a could call for some because a lot of the guys on unit. Twenty six are older. They're maybe even more worried about the corona virus. The people in other units a lot of men on the unit got some pretty serious health conditions. There's a guy in a wheelchair can't go to the bathroom by himself. There's a man named Vernon thread. Gill he goes by Mr Blind. Earl Dyke's is sixty six years old. He just came back from having surgery on his knee. Calvin Moro has a whole laundry list of medical conditions. I'm really scared because I got. Copd and infant Zima. Got A bad heart too. I got out which called and Jonah. Errington just wants to make it to his next parole hearing. He's been in Parchman for forty years. He got locked up when he was eighteen for murder. And he's now nearing sixty. He says he also has all kinds of health problems. Including a hernia the Scott untreated for years chronic issue. More women feel now that you might not make it out of here. I'M GONNA take one more shot trying to try to get at. And he says his parole hearing is in twenty twenty one he hopes might be able to finally get outta parchment if he survives the pandemic April second. Something else is happening across the prison in an entirely. Different building. An inmate named Larry Jenkins who serving sixty years for sex crimes calls Parker alarming news? How are you doing? Oh scared to death. I'm not going to Miss Parker to death. The Superintendent of Parchman prison a man named Marshall Turner had just walked onto Larry Stone in unit thirty D surrounded by guards. His own entourage alker the front. Okay my front. I'll hundred eight of US may just turn off the television. So we can hear and he's. I'm not answering any questions. I'm GonNa tell you what you need to know. 'cause I gotta go and Explain that there had been someone in our building tested positive for Cova nineteen. So it's possible that we may have been exposed as for who that person was. The person who might have brought corona virus into Larry's building the superintendent wouldn't say but Larry and some of the other guys on his unit. Believe it was probably a guard. The guards are the ones who go in and out of the prison every day. The ones who live out in the free world where. Krona virus is already spreading is not hard to imagine a guard could get infected out there and bring the virus back inside the superintendent constant this part of the prison. The room where Larry lives was now under quarantine. Nobody is deleted his own under any circumstances. Did if you work in engaging. You're not going to work if you work hard. You're not going to work keyboard anywhere. You're not going anywhere until you come. Quarantine and nobody asked me questions way. Learn Electric gotTa shut up what you gotta say. Basically the superintendent was saying Corona virus could be in here so to protect everyone else in the prison. All the other inmates all the guards on other units were shutting the door and leaving you in here for seven days to see what happens. The seven days of quarantine pass slowly. Couldn't go anywhere routers trays for meals. Styrofoam trays every day. The nurses customer at check. Our temperatures prison doesn't give them masks Larry says and he says most of the guards who come through the building. Every day aren't wearing masks. Either how can we socially distance ourselves if we're already crowded three feet apart no mast no particular no PP whatsoever? It's impossible day. One passes day to one day during the quarantine Larry Sees on. Tv that Jay Z's group is donating one hundred thousand masks to inmates jails and prisons across the country including five thousand masks to parchment more than enough for one mask for each inmate. Good Morning America added on the ticker that ROCK NATION WHICH IS JAY Z. And and the other guys g. Gotti or whatever his name is. They say five thousand mass departure. But the masks. Don't make it to Larry's unit. No one seems to have them. We don't know what happened to the mass. We've not received the first war. And so Larry and the other men in his own wait and watch each other as the days corentin tick by three one. Visit them in one place. We're doing good before. Just lay there and cross your fingers day five still no sign of the virus day. Six oil finally day seven and still no one's sick being a week without any of the symptoms or any other apparently infected people. Larry is healthy. No one seems to have the virus. Although without testing anyone who knows the quarantine on Larry's building is lifted and then on the very same day? Fourteen is lifted earl. Dyke's the Bible Study Guy From Unit. Twenty six calls this one. He's coughing. We'll be back right after the break He called me on Thursday and he he was really sick. This is Barbara Day cus Earl dicusses wife and he's the only talk for about two minutes because he could talk without coughing in two minutes. She told me to ask everybody to pray for him that he was on three antibiotics and that he was just coughing all the time. When did the cost start? He's he's had a call or sometime. I talk to him at least twice a week. And the COP was consistent. You know would ask him about it and well. Maybe they'll give me something from big toe. What's that mean means? Their medical medical attention is not the best. Like it's a it's sarcastic like I got a problem in my long. Maybe little. Treat my toe if you're getting the no you're doing well so If he if he got three antibiotics they knew it was serious. Patron prison won't comment on. What happened to Earl Dyke's but in the past few weeks we've been talking to members of the dike is family anti-foreign men who lived with. Earl on unit twenty six according to what they've told us here's what happened to earl toward the end of. March earl got really sick about a week. Passed before earl was seen by a medical provider in the prison. He was given some medication. We don't know what exactly according to an inmate on the unit earl was given Ibuprofen and cold medicine. According to one of errol's family members he was given antibiotics for a few days early in bed with a bad cough in his cube with the other inmates. He wasn't eating it knife falling after work. You know he would in the bed. I seem bait. See Mr Dinner. Something Rome's or eventually earl was taken out of the unit again. Greek go they took and for days. The men on Unit twenty-six didn't hear anything more about what had happened to earl but then one day an officer walk onto the unit officer. Was there to deal with earls belongings with new right. Now we knew Earl Earl. Dyke's had died. It turns out the after he had left. The unit was transferred to a regular hospital outside of the Prison Hospital in Greenville Mississippi. Earl died in that hospital the cause of death. According to a death certificate the family shared with US was pneumonia dacoven. Nineteen Kovic had officially arrived in Parchman prison. The Mississippi Department of Corrections released a statement saying that one of its inmates had died and that he tested positive for cove. Nineteen the statement didn't use earls name. It just said an inmate. The news release said quote. The inmate who had underlying health conditions was tested when he began exhibiting symptoms and was immediately medically isolated pending results. The results did not come in until after the inmate had died back on unit twenty six. The guards didn't want to deal with earls belongings themselves. A guard told the inmates. Somebody packers stuff up. No one wanted to do it in big whiskey to go back to the moon. Ain't rolling back to my kids. Can't go rhino in earls old friend Vernon Mr Blind was there during all this and he stepped in put on some blue. I want to clean it out and cleaning. Pick this stuff up. There wasn't much a few letters. Girls Bible all stop. You know she took it out now as for cleaning the area. According to the inmates the prison didn't send anyone to clean zone or even just to clean the area in the cube where all slept so vernon took it upon himself to try to clean earls cube as best. He could direct asleep. Known Street is now bid now real groove in mattress and pillow aspirated now and a set him outside to go to the garbage. After taking away earls belongings. Prison officials came back onto unit twenty six. According to the inmates they pulled aside the four or so men who shared a Cuba thorough and tested each of them for cove nineteen while the men waited for the results to come back. They had lots of time to sit around and wonder and Calvin was getting angry when I don't know if it's man next to me got it. Oh Man guided by. We're worried you're nobody would tell them. Nobody nothing a few days later. Prison officials returned to unit twenty six. Eddie said this time. They were dressed in protective gear from head to toe face. Masks and face shields gowns gloves way redress. We know somewhere wrong college out a name. The name of one of those Cube Mate's comes straight from on out and officers was trying to stay away from that now so you you just got it. And they'll somebody asks him. Yeah thank and window right away. The he he had this part Jeff added came and picked him up. The man stood up and walked to. The door was escorted out of his own extent under we was going. The man was moved to another part of the prison. Apparently to be quarantined and his own he'd been living on was also placed in quarantine for two weeks. We still don't know how earl- dykes contracted covered. Nineteen who gave it to him. The Mississippi Department of Corrections declined our request to interview the head of the Department and the head of Parchman prison in a statement emailed us a spokesperson for the Department of Corrections said. The department cannot discuss the health of individual inmates because of hip of privacy rule protections. And we don't know how far the virus has spread inside Parchman prison. The Mississippi Department of Corrections has said that there have been no other confirmed cases of covert nineteen in Parchman prison. Just too but as of today Tuesday may fifth out of the thousands of inmates in state custody in Mississippi. Two Thousand Seven Minute Parchman and another sixteen thousand or so inmates at other facilities around the state the Mississippi Department of Corrections has tested. Just thirty three. I was talking the other day to parchment inmate named Marlin Howell. Marlins sees this a little differently from the other men because Marlin is in a cell all by himself just sitting there all day every day alone marlins in a single cell because he's on death row for murder he says he didn't commit and the cell that Marlin is in. It's the very same sell. Curtis flowers used to live before. Curtis's conviction was overturned and he got out of prison. I was talking with Marlin. About how a person deals with Paris. The Not knowing the risk of catching it and the helplessness that. It's easy for any of us to feel but especially for people in prison you today. I want to be in prison and Anton arrive. You know what I'm saying but they can come to you. Uk He'll be three or four. Marlin told me about something. He learned from watching the show. Dr Oz about what to do when you're feeling scared blood riding you feel like you have anxiety. She started a rescue. Sodas what I try to do the flat back. And I take no deep rifts in deep breaths and I try to I try to count no canteen. I inhale I and I released Continuing to report on what's happening inside Parchman CRESA and we'll keep you posted. There is one update. Inmates have gotten face masks and inmate. Text us a photo of one of them. You can see it on our website and one more thing if you live in the Mississippi Delta and you want to share your experiences of living through this pandemic you can leave voicemail message at six six two two five four four zero three seven. We may use some of your recordings in a future episode in the Dark Corona Virus and the Delta is reported and produced by me Madeline Baron managing producers Samara Free Mark Producer Natalie Jabotinsky associate producer. Raymond Tonga car and reporter Parker Yesica. The series was edited. Catherine winter the editor in chief of APM reports. Is Chris Worthington? This episode was mixed by Corey. Shrill Music for the series by Gary Meister to see photos that accompany our series. You can go to our website in the dark podcast dot. Org Photography for this series by Bandette.

Parchman Randy Earl Dyke Earl Earl Mississippi Delta Prison Larry murder Mississippi Parchman Mississippi Department of Corr Mississippi Delta Parchman CRESA Mississippi State Penitentiary Miss Parker Jay Z reporter Superintendent Madeline Baron Prison Hospital US
All Zeit All Zeit All Zeit 12/11: John Wick 4, The Last Jedi, #youtubeisoverparty, Tommy Calloway, Blue Alert, JJ Culver

The Daily Zeitgeist

16:40 min | 10 months ago

All Zeit All Zeit All Zeit 12/11: John Wick 4, The Last Jedi, #youtubeisoverparty, Tommy Calloway, Blue Alert, JJ Culver

"Hello the Internet and welcome to this episode of Paul's that that that is cursive. Johnny Davis and take Jack O'Brien. I'm thrilled to be joined by super producers on a hosea on. Hey Jack Hey how's IT GOIN'. Dj Dale get him in. It's your boy DJ Daniel. How's it going? Everybody Lick We. Can we can immediately get the fuck Outta here. That's what I do. Well we WINCO. Dj Daniel in the how all right. We're here on pretty silly. It's late in the day We are checking in with what is trending right. Now sue producer Sophie. Letterman was trying to get me to buy in on this Harry styles trending all day. She's like if you if you need me. We're good and then after a while just doing into spider even though I like yeah I should have looked into what was happening with Harry styles but I had to had to do it to rob this house house. Did you see the video of the Harry Styles Video. I don't care all right John Wick for is trending because it set to come out on on five twenty one twenty one which is the same day as Matrix for that seems that seems too dumb for them to do. No they're giving everyone double Kiani doubled away certainly not mad at it but I mean also one has no idea. This is happening so I mean I think he does probably on a beach somewhere being like. I'm reading my book. You don't think John Who's in charge of his movies vs own marketing. You don't think all of those meetings take came here have we considered digital digital yet. WHOA WHOA Kyoto power player? His performance in bed one show was really good anyways always nailed maybe greatest scene. He nails as a character to the point that I only watched that part. 'cause you guys told me to and I believe that that movie is great even though everybody's been like no boy movies amazing man inch movie. I've made my top ten list of the year in movie hoffer shirt so anyways that's probably going to change. I don't know if they did that. Ah To get a little pop. I think they're trying to really. What is it called when you like? They're trying to cash in on the the KIANA center definitely definitely hundred percent. They're trying to cash on that Kiana science being like. Wow maybe people double feature it. Maybe they'll go to both. I was just listening to it on. I'm going to grind house the fuck out of both of these. These movies. I'm seeing John Wigan Matrix same day which I matrix interesting Yeah because the other sequels were so good so I mean they're they're honestly I need. I need the John Wick Chaser to the shot of Matrix that we're going to be a lot to I still remember Won't even get into it. Let's talk about another sequel guys Last Jedi trending but that movie came out a long time ago. How is it trending now? Because the cast of the upcoming star our wars movie and J.J. Abrams director are basically shitting. All over. The last Jedi. Yeah that's that's a member at what happened in that one. That was the one where you find out raise. Parents aren't real really Jeddah story. Yeah Yeah exactly. That's the one uh-huh that's the one with. That's with John Boyega and yeah okay so that is a second one in the third trilogy. God Force Awakens the first one and I with Ron Johnson and then J.. Abrams is coming back for the third rises skywalker. And they're like Oh. I cried tears of joy when I found out that. Jj was coming back. People are taking shade. I don't know if that's necessarily shade but then there's also just like I don't know you have to be very careful about how you speak about the last Jedi because it is such a controversial movie that that people are just dying for them to say something negative about I mean one hundred percent. All of the press after bid was was about how everybody wanted a remake or some nonsense like data and rains just in my opinion completely inappropriate. I thought last Jedi was uninteresting. Movie sure I don't know if I liked. It was uninteresting resting direction to take star wars. That's how I feel about every star. Wars movie is interesting yeah. Anna is a close watcher of movies. Watched the Irishman a four and a half hour movie and at the end asked me wait so Robert Deniro was the Irish uh-huh Italian in it because he was in the war early on in the movie that it's hard to establish you. I'm just talk if you missed that part where he was where they were like. Look at look at this guy. He's sure Irishman you would have not not known that. But how how did you miss the fact that they gave him weird blue eyes the whole time. This cairn of the problem I was. It's really which I liked Irish because I like to see Robert Deniro back in the classic role of the Mafia so like I always feel like that's where he's his. I've never seen that before before. Yes but I look. He's back home where he's gone on vacation. He did dirty Graham by did whatever else he did. The intern bucket. Tuck it yes yeah. I did the bucket list and now he came back home. He's like honey. I'm home right. And he's he's he's killing people off you physically beating the shit out of people in an incredibly believable. The guy that scene is so funny your he looks like he's GonNa break a hip. Yeah I did not watch all twelve hours of that movie but I did watch that scene a couple times just to see the wonderful physical acting that we've done to make those kicks real. Yeah it was. Ah these are really Dan. You'RE GONNA explain to us why Youtube is over. Party is trending on twitter. I'll be happy to explain that. Youtube is over. Party is training training because blank is over. Party is trending. And it's just the next way to say some S- Internet subcultures tired of this thing. It started with what what I thought was common knowledge that he productions on their podcast was lambasting k pop fans and then all sorts of k pop fans came out. And they're like he he is over. Ethan is over and you guys had no idea what I was talking about He. He productions is what Ethan Klein and Helix Line they make a podcast. H sleep podcast. I can't I think it's h three H. I don't know I'm probably wrong. I'm going to get roasted in the comments. But h three h three. They make Internet content. They may very very famous vape nation video which apparently neither of you have seen which boggles my mind. Vape Nash they've nation. I don't need to see video tape. Deep Nation my guy either way go check out babe nation and okay. Yeah but they were lambasting Cape Fans and they came after him heavily saying h three is over and now everything thing is over. I'm sorry h three is he he yes. It's h three h three productions. Speak like they. Yeah you know all right threes and cities please come on anyway. So Youtube is over because they a are people just realizing that Youtube is fucked up company. I mean Yeah More Orleans all the things that they do that are bad are is why they're over. Currently I mean it's I think yet. To be honest with the creators like Shit have have algorithms that big up content that is just controversial. It has no relationship to quality It will after any four videos you will be be taken to Nazi propaganda. Essentially Yep All of these things always party there was a there was an image put out that got shared a lot on twitter that I was just a sign of the big subscribers in two thousand ten and the biggest subscribers in twenty nineteen just to like see what the difference was and the amount of people that were actual human being youtubers in two thousand ten two thousand nineteen which is just littered with celebrities and companies and people monetize off of you know big corporations and stuff like that. It's all good morning and Youtube now and that's true for of course yes of the pot now that the platform has been taken over by corporations and you know celebrities. They're like it's the same you to suits right. So you tubes over Shit like he he media and how they're big fortune five hundred and poor and poor Jack. Black Linski gaming. Is that true. I mean he's there. I love him but right but yeah gaming is just him playing video games. He doesn't even play any games ever. It's just him streaming streaming. There's just him like doing stream of consciousness kind of videos and stuff like that. Every every day. He talks about how his computer got stolen. I remember what it's called. The DESPERADOS got stolen guys. So No gameday today Jack Black Jack Blaby Jack Black Jabotinsky just like watch him fuck around here like an hour. Yeah that sounds great yeah content. Yeah he he he does. The thing like there's there's some there's some meam of him like walking down the street with his camera out in front of him in some like dude turns around when he's with his wife so check black. That's actually interesting using because I've seen him walking down Franklin talking on the phone and you turned around and one is that you know my car and was like God. Get a life hiring hiring jack black anymore youtube money. That sounds like good content. Youtube is back on party on Tony. Calloway trending that. Sounds like it should be a famous person from the fifties it is actually somebody in their fifties who's running a marathon and slapped a reporter but when whereas they ran by the reporter was not having it Lou yeah she was seemed very Upset by it rightly Lee so and then because this dumb ass came up running behind her on camera you can see his face he was. You can also see as number So it was immediately caught and there was a rumor. He was a youth pastor Now it is being claimed that he wasn't youth pastor presumably by the Church Church that he was a youth pastor four so they're like new. No that's not us but denying I don't know they so I just saw an are. You told me. He was a youth pastor. I went and read article and the article had a correction at the bottom that said Correction earlier version of the said. He was a youth pastor. Okay so what is your check. I don't know the adult pastor. He's a pastor the adore interesting I hate that kind of stuff because I feel like it's like a classic do thing where like Babe it was a joke right and it's like no don't ever touch a woman who did not invite you to touch her for. It's not funny. She's not in on the joke. She's not looking at you. You're running up behind her. Yeah she's doing her job and you're gonNA smack on the ass just like if if you ever see a woman backup thirty feet. No matter what his excuse was I got caught up in exactly caught up in the morning like that suggests that there there was some something precipitating that there was some energy Like that was in the situation that made you that then and lead you to that whereas it was purely completely fucking random that energy was running up behind a woman who was doing her bright. Exactly exactly showing you is like now I have to take you down a peg. We find out there was an ass slapping marathon literally ten feet out of which there wasn't right as far as I know we did. The we got paired atomic away. We don't know no there was no. I promised we'd Never Actually Fared Tommy Cal I the number one trending thing on. Google is blue alert because apparently everybody in the state of Texas got something called a blue alert on there phone. This was when a cop is attacked and then they have A. It's basically an amber alert for somebody after a cop is attacked so case you ever get it. That is what a blue alert is and finally in case you ever get it ignore it airs tax. Oh well they'll come to our world but what are we supposed to do about. I don't know I don't get it like you're supposed to look out for the person I think it's the person wearing this this and this cotton and so you're like Oh right citizens arrested. Yeah why on hand that police officer And come with me you suck. Did you lay hands on this officer. I don't know why we have to be so old time. That's just what I imagine. Every per per citizens arrest is lying and finally. Jj Culver brother of NBA player. Jarrett covert is trending because he scored one hundred points in a game for new ooh Wayland Baptist. Church is a team. I think it is like that's like D two basketball. Where's that located I don't know But the important thing is I watched a clip and it looked like he was playing against me like it was it was not a very impressive of a level of competition. Seen you ball. You've got scale plain view Texas plain view tax. Hey it's just like this dudes clearly too good to be playing at this level and I don't it seems like it would have had to have been a decision for him to be an AI when his brother was one of the best NCWA players in the nation. But you know what. I'm not GonNa hit on this dude. He put up one hundred points hundred points. I bet it's not bad. And if you look at the scoring sheet I'm GonNa hit on him. You look at the scoring sheet. The teammate on his team who took the next most shots took three shots three. He was thirty four for sixty he to Kobe. Bryant right there. That is some Kobe. What's next level? He's better than everyone. His division thirty-three thirty-three for sixty to thirty four or sixty two. Now is there a chance that they can like. Is he able to get bumped up to a different team. That's D. he won. No I mean he could transfer oh so he would have to do it himself lake. Because if you're doing that well in your D to like isn't that but I guess I don't know the discrepancy between like being a really good player versus being like a really good or like a decent d.`you want player like is it a live. Look at the footage from the game. There are approximately five people in the stands. So it's it's just an interesting look. It's like I don't know but maybe I don't know there've been D. N. A. People who made it to the NBA. I I wonder if that has to do with. I wonder if there's some and weird scouting thing where they're look into just got to be one. I mean the in sports. Yeah Hey you said it All right guys will That's been another other episode in the book. This podcast is over party. I'd say that the whole time the cancel the Erica's thank you. Producer on Hosea. Take you to producer. Dj Danell. Oh you guys for everything you do all the time you set while better just so. Many emails came in while all we were doing this time. Anything my life by the way Jack we have some.

Jack Black Jack Blaby Youtube John Wick Producer twitter NBA Texas Jj Culver Robert Deniro WINCO Harry Dj Daniel J.J. Abrams Dj Dale Jeddah jack black John Wigan John Boyega Kiani Paul
Full Episode: Thursday, March 22, 2019

Nightline

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Full Episode: Thursday, March 22, 2019

"Are you hiring with indeed you can post job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash Nightline. That's indeed dot com slash Nightline. Hits you like a ton of bricks. The war the crowd. It's like a mix of wrestlemainia meets the Super Bowl. These are the sports stars of the future in all around the world. Be packing a massive arena. Just to watch them play. Video games. In a billion dollar industry. These pros some still in their team are racking up wins. And stacking up cash. I'm talking six figure salaries. Welcome to the world of east boards sheer. Share with these five guys gaming is life. Together, they make up team liquid my nickname stock will and planning treat. When no I'm twenty years old Miley is I I'm eighteen my alias and game is Niger twenty three years old. My name is Jonathan Dublin. Jabotinsky lion game is a leash. I'm twenty one years old Elise is one of the top ranked players in the world. That's our playing counter strike one point five when I was about four years old. My dad didn't really like me playing games that much. He just wanted me to play sports and the stupid things outside. But I just never had fun doing that stuff. By the time. He was a seventeen year old high school senior Elise had signed onto his first professional east sports team. We are one of the top teams in the world. And now they're about to take on some of the world's best edit turnament in New York on the line a quarter of a million dollars. Their bread and butter is a game called counter strike a five on five shooter competition, I got people. I got people. Success depends on seamless teamwork and strategy. Well, Michaels goes. This year. I'm just gonna go really like us their coach, let's go. He's a former pro player himself. My name is Wilson pro also known as I'm thirty years old when people imagine gamers, these facts us to be in the basement, and when we play in these arenas. It's something kind of out of this world, we get to play in front of twenty twenty five thousand people depending Tarinah over millions live watching at the same time. They jet around the world it all across the US from a really small town. I it really is an awesome opportunity. And I love it when they're not on the road. Most American teams go back to Los Angeles. The unofficial home of east sports in the UN. We're their franchises pay for them to live in mansions fit four king. Today. I'm hanging out with the Philadelphia fusing check out their crib you. This place is worth five million dollars men, and they tell me this is a little bit more typical how most teams get down where they live and train together inside a gamers, paradigm training room who and gym. So you guys you got a court outside groups, ping pong and. Trenton near you. Yeah. Team liquid is a little different the players live in their own apartments, but they train here at this brand new nine thousand square foot state of the art facility. So welcome. This is the training facility. Steve our hand said is the co owner of the team if you were to ask Serena Williams, we're kind of racket or you're gonna end up using she's going to be very particular about the type of racquet, right? And for our gamers, they wanna be kind of enabled to have the very best each detail has been carefully thought out from an on-staff personal chef to a pro level supporting cast, we have mental coaches sports psychologists, we have physical therapist. So there's an army of folks that are dedicated to making sure that these players up their performance in the team liquid franchise has some serious backing with investors like NBA legend, Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson. You've come a long way from Pennsylvania, man. I've been to Pennsylvania doesn't look anything like Santa Monica what what's life like, oh, do you. I mean, it's great like every single day is the same temperature sunny every single day. And I always have like Arbor -tunities to do things with the team the company employees dozens of players who compete in fourteen different game. If you just had to explain it to dude on the street what you do for a living. How would you explain this? I would describe it like we're playing like the NBA or something, and you you rise up through the ranks of playing like the minor leagues or whatever. And you're only focusing on one game. Because usually when I say professional video game player, they think that I play multiple games, but I'm really just focusing all my time on one at least like several of his teammates actually started college but left school when it became clear, his childhood hobby could become his real life job. I miss about half my classes going to so many tournaments half. And I and I still didn't really well, even missing half, my classes after that semester. I decided I can't do both and I chose gaming. Can you give me a ballpark figure in terms of what people in this space can make? I mean, if you are a pro player, depending on what game you play you can definitely make millions and millions of two and a year or more. Yeah. Without a college education without a college. It just now that's not their work if you can find it. Yeah. Now, major universities are trying to get in on the action. Twenty year old college student. Emily Ozer is the captain of colleges overwatch team. I definitely consider myself an athlete oser has become a fearless female gamer in a male dominated sport. Being a woman in eastwards is very daunting. You have to really establish yourself gaining the trust of your players is just a tad bit harder. Originally, she started pursuing a career in music, but that don't change when she found out the school was launching an east sports team. Once I entered the game, design development and programming major. I I fell in love instantly, maybe behind he's got all sooner Kim is part of a growing number of schools that are investing big money in new facilities. Kevin I'll come in in creating academic majors in gaming, we need to get them out of their rooms and come and join a team. Deck in the big leagues that tournament at Brooklyn's. Barclays center is underway. LA drinking beer and watching people play video games. Inside the sheer size of this billion dollar industry is on full display. Benders pack, the lobby and poor doors with teams swag and all the latest tech. For leauge. This one is extra special. His family is in the stand. Living the dream. You could be shopping shopping carts at like, WalMart or doing this traveling across the world. You guys are proud of your brother. Absolutely. I support him. So jealous of him. In his team has made it to the main stage if they win two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and of course bragging. It's team liquid enters the arena. The crowd is electric. As soon as you start hearing, the crowd, yelling your name or your team lame. Is just a German. You know, it's go time. It's focus up then it's game tongue. The tension is highs each millisecond counts. Who play at least gives up water from liquid? Thins nature sleek watching. Some holding their breath. To watch them. It's a close fun. Contacts and right now stress at an all time high from series, but in the end. Twenty. It's not enough liquid defeated their the champion sports Broadway. I think it was the worst defeat of my career. Honestly, it was really heartbreaking. Tough loss. The guys put on their game face and go out to meet their things. We haven't really had our biggest victory yet. But we are really on the cusp of it and uncertain there. We're going to have it very soon. In. He was right team liquid bounced back kicking up twenty nine thousand nine with the new roster in a new trophy winning the first championship of the year right now, I really hope that I'm going to be studying in east sports for the rest of my life for Nightline. I'm Zachary quiche in New York. Thanks Zachary next, the chilling new film from the director of get out. Are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash Nightline. That's indeed dot com slash Nightline. They look just like us, and they're creeping ever closer the deadly doubtful gamers, Jordan, peels, new horror movie us, giving movie goers, a terrifying. Throw right as well. As peels own unique brand of social critique in films. Here's ABC's Chris. Conley. Does your family driveway silent shadowy figures gathered in the night outside isolated poem? A new writing. And I was like, okay. Well, there's my iconic image for a claimed writer director, Jordan Peele. It's the Erie image that sets his latest film us. Terrifying and provocative force. They're standing there waiting for you to make the move or something, you don't know. And then finally when they do come the pit of your stomach this supposed to drop out from under itself. So it does over and again during us. The forty year old peel deploying the skills he showed in two thousand seventeen get out across a seven new fright scape. She is a woman who is riddled by this trauma from her childhood that she just can't shake off Pugh person stations of forest run to challenges audiences mindset. Why is this kind of John Ray filmed the perfect place for you to explore your ideas, I love horror because it gives a visceral reaction, it gets an audible reaction, and it makes you feel I art that makes you feel ends up making you think suffers much to discuss as a mid it's crab pleasing beat downs and bloodbaths peel once again serves up a scathing, social critique exactly like us as his family that was the ferocious d'appel Ganga's in their midst evil manifestations of themselves. The Oscar winning lupita neon. Go and Winston Duke convey peels deeper meaning while taking on their duel rolls. It is in our nature to fear idea of the outside or the alien. I think that we are own worst enemy because. We are so capable of lying to ourselves about what our guilt about our shame about our sins. We're very good at saying. It's not us. It's them when you suppress something as a group, whether it's racism classism. Xena phobia, historically, we we see it come out in atrocious ways when that shadow south that darkness in us is left unattended to it can swell out of control rare. It's ugly head, and 'cause a lot of destruction in the world, a lot of destruction a lot of destruction. Oftentimes, the doctors is something that we project onto another. And in this film, Jordan makes a monster out of that darkness and shows what it would look like if that darkness came for us. Twilight zone fan who's rebooting the classic series. Peel says us as doubles were inspired in part with the nineteen sixty episode mirror image while his own family, including their twenty month old son helped as well just going from not a dad to a dad is like confronting yourself. There's a completely different reason for living. I think that's part of it is having a kid around this time. And then there's something. Terrifying. That happens when you stop living for just yourself. You gotta get it. Right. Do it. God bless America. After Peel's many years as a comedic actor the road to us began more than two years ago. Jordan kale? The response in gendered by his debut direct to'real effort, which won him an Oscar for best screenplay. I love you all thank you so much good night. Power of Jordan's work is that he's redefining a Jonah asandra. That often says blackness is the first casualty in get out. He said what else could be the first casualty that was racism. I watched get out five times in the cinema over a month. While we were doing black pounds lupita told us that she watched get out five times. So you must've very hard time getting her to be your movie, the performance that she gave me or the performances I should say the shot. I think are to a great iconic horror performances of all time. They think like us double rolls all around text the talents of all connected with what is it like to act opposite yourself, some of these very tough. Oftentimes, it was just a green X on a wall, and that you had to perform tour, then there's this menace coming for you. And it's it's nowhere seen it took a while to get into that learn how to. Five minutes or ten minutes. Learn how to switch fast enough. With the thirty. His artistry has provided peels become a Hollywood player producing spike. Lee's black klansman and us marks another significant moment in what's become an extraordinary, flowering of cinema from African American filmmakers and performers feel our generation our cohort of artists at this time is doing something that others haven't had the opportunity to do. Just the fact that this this is a movie with a black African American family in the center of it is new it's a sort of tragic reminder of the the lack of meaningful representation in this industry. I think it's very meaningful to the black community to see black faces in film. That's not about race. And now that we are represented now the conversation a lot of times about nuance. Aided by us is still lean twenty million dollar budget peel remains guided by his own pioneering muse elevating both the horror genre. And the overall discussion you were coming off the most remarkable success that one could imagine what let you censor yourself to be able to do this film and not have that freak you out. I always would return to this idea that with get out. I mean, my favorite movie that doesn't exist can always return to that. What movie would I most like to watch right now? Make that movie I think people with fund to your truth when it's real. And finally tonight that landscape a wildflowers that on lookers can't get enough of it's like a scene out of the wizard of Oz. A rolling field of poppies these rolling hills in the southern California city of lake Elsinore ablaze in orange as the wildfires. Go through a rare super bloom this made for social media moment drawing a crush of people the spot so popular that thirties. No closing rose. Limiting visitors living up to the name the poppy apocalypse. Maybe just check out a postcard just saying that's Nightline. Remember if you can't stay with us. You can watch full episodes anytime on Hulu, thanks for the company America. Good night. Are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash Nightline. That's indeed dot com slash Nightline.

Michael Jordan Elise New York NBA Los Angeles America Peel Oscar Pennsylvania Niger Jonathan Dublin Barclays center Miley UN Brooklyn Wilson pro director Serena Williams
S1 Update: The Wetterling File

In The Dark

28:29 min | 2 years ago

S1 Update: The Wetterling File

"Hey, guys. This is Samara. I'm the senior producer in the dark. We're coming to you today with an update not about the Curtis flowers case. But about our first season yesterday, we got some important news about the case that we covered in that season. And we wanted to make sure to tell you guys about it as soon as we could if you haven't listened to season one of the podcast, you can find it in our podcast feed or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much for listening and enjoy the update. Ooh. This is an update episode of season one in the dark season. One of this podcast. Our teams spent a year looking into the case of Jacob, Waterloo. An eleven year old boy who was kidnapped on October twenty second nineteen eighty nine in the small town of Saint Joseph, Minnesota in Stearns county, the case went unsolved for almost twenty seven years, and then in September of twenty sixteen authorities announced that a man named Danny Heinrich had confessed to kidnapping and murdering Jakup. Heinrich led officers to Jacobs remains in a field in Paynesville, Minnesota this a little more than a mile from where Heinrich had been living back then. And so she's in one of in the dark started with a news conference. Finally, we know. We know what the wetter Ling family and all's Minnesota have longed to know since that awful night in nineteen eighty nine. We know the truth in that news conference one by one officials from each agency the Stearns county sheriff's office, the FBI the state crime bureau went up to the podium and praised each other for their tireless work on the case. We are here today because of the perseverance of the investigative team that commitment to aggressively follow up on every single lead. No matter how small or seemingly insignificant and the absolute belief that if we continue to press, we would eventually solve this case. But then just yesterday there was a very different kind of news conference held by the new sheriff in Stearns county, boo. This task force was not just on the wrong path, but on the wrong free wing and later on that autobahn with no speed, and this case too many cooks spoiled, LeBron's soup the stool or Minnesota that test. In the first season of in the dark. We asked a question. No one else was asking about the weather case. I hadn't this case been solved right away. What went wrong in this investigation? At allowed the case to drag on for nearly twenty seven years our reporting found that investigators failed to conduct some of the most basic police work in the case. They didn't talk to all the neighbors on the dead end road where Jacob was kidnapped. They pursued all kinds of pointless leads leads involving psychics people in other states all kinds of things they turned one of their best. Witnesses into a top suspect. They discounted. The information from children in the area who've been attacked by a strange man in the years leading up to Jacobs kidnapping, and they let the man who committed this crime. A man named Danny Heinrich get away with it. For twenty seven years was only solved because Heinrich decided to confess to the crime to get a better deal. On some child porn charges. In the months after the first season of in the dark came out, the sheriff of Stearns county John Santer announced that he was resigning. John Sanur left in the middle of his term, the county selected a man named Dan Gudmundsson to serve as the acting sheriff until the next election. Dan, Gudmundsson had worked for years in law enforcement in Detroit and Chicago and Minnesota in Minnesota he'd been sheriff of several counties, and it served as police chief the city of lakeville Gudmundsson had a reputation in Minnesota as an independent thinker an aggressive law enforcement officer who isn't afraid to call it like he sees it. I'd I come across him about six years ago when he filled in as a police chief of a small town in southern Minnesota and ended up authorising a multi state criminal investigation to take down a former teacher at a boarding school. Minnesota who'd sexually abused children at the school Gudmundsson began his new job as Stearns. County sheriff in may of twenty seventeen and right away. One of the first things he had to deal with was what to do with the investigative file in the weather in case. All those documents police reports notes about what investigators did when they're trying to figure out who kidnapped and murdered. Jacob waddling that file had been closed to the public. No one outside of law enforcement was allowed to see it as long as the case had remained on salt. But in Minnesota once a case is closed. The law says that the public has a right to look at the file. And so after Danny Heinrich confessed, I requested a copy of the file we were one of several news organizations that put in a request, but the weather link family tried to prevent parts of the file from becoming public. Their lawyer told the court that there were personal details about their family in the file that they believe shouldn't be public. Our news organization and others argued that it was important for the file to be public for any investigative file to be public. Once the case is closed because that's the only way the. Public can know what law enforcement actually did whether they did their job in the end, the judge sided with the news organizations and ordered the file to be made public. But this didn't apply to all the documents. The documents that belong to the FBI went back to the FBI. We filed a freedom of information request to get those documents. But so far the F B I hasn't really some it took months for Stearns county to prepare their file for release. And then just yesterday the Stearns county sheriff held a news conference to pass out copies of the file to reporters on flash drives. I was flying back from Mississippi. So our producer Natalie Jabotinsky and our reporter Parker. Yes. Go drove out to Saint Cloud to attend it later that afternoon. My flight landed and Natalie and I went into a studio, and she told me about it. We just got back from this press conference. You just describe it. It was like today. Yeah. I guess it is amazing. Like how intense any wetter Ling relate? Good news conference is like it felt like we were kind of back there again. We get there. It's in the basement of a sheriff's office. Got there an hour early. And it was already like a wall of cameras in the back a ton of reporters. I'm like duct taping my mic to the podium, and there's already like eight Mike's on the podium. I can barely squeeze mine in an hour before it starts. And so yet like the longer we sat there. More people kept coming in and coming in so many reporters all of Minnesota news media was there things like. So is it all reporters were there? It was almost all reporters. There were a few other people. They're just before ten o'clock Jerry wetter Ling walked in and sat down he was wearing like a blue blazer polka-dot shirt. So Jacob's father. Yeah. Jacob butter links dad when I and other people asked him for common afterwards. He just said like, I'm just here to listen. So yeah, how did it get started? So finally after what seemed like a long time that we were waiting sheriff, Don Goodman's and walked in. Thank you for being here for the release of the Stearns county sheriff's office in Minnesota bureau of criminal apprehension files on the wiggling investigation. Something that was kind of rare for a press conference. He gave a PowerPoint. Unlike most press conferences, or a brief statement is made and then questions taken I propose to do a PowerPoint presentation of the case focused primarily on the first few months of the investigation after the head a chance to digest the files on the flash drive. We believe that you'll find them. We'll important information is in the first part of the files or the investigation when off the rails. I watched this news conference on my phone. And it was unlike anything ever seen in the past when there would be a news conference about the Wetering case law enforcement would line up in a row behind the podium as a show of unity and. Law enforcement would never say anything negative at those news conferences about their work on the case this time, there's just one law enforcement officer up there alone at the podium, just the sheriff. And he wasn't there to praise law enforcement. He was there to deliver. A message sheriff Gudmundsson walked the audience through an hour long PowerPoint presentation, where he broke down in detail exactly how investigators had botched the case ever since the night of October twenty second nineteen eighty nine when Jacob was kidnapped. They have in my view from Tober twenty-second mistaken activity for accomplishment. They just felt like keep doing this keep doing this and keep doing this getting more and more tips and company will eventually stumble onto the head and the tone of the sheriff during all this was quite raw as though he was trying to say, look, I can't even believe the stuff myself. There were times I will admit that when we were. Putting together there's power point. We're screaming at the flight. Can't you see this? It was striking to watch as the new sheriff basically went through all of our findings from the first season. But how the investigation was botched one by one like how law enforcement didn't right away. Talk to all the neighbors on the dead end road or Jacob was kidnapped. It is unclear when on the twenty third survey was conducted at ten of the homes of an Helen Forsman failed to catch Danny Heinrich years earlier when he was jumping out of bushes attacking kids in the nearby town of Painesville, frankly, went off the rails with the Painesville incidence. We should have been involved in that and t- and solve those cases way back in eighty seven and how lon- for sment failed to catch Janney. Heinrich in January nineteen eighty nine nine months before Jacob was kidnapped when Heinrich kidnapped another boy in the neighboring town of cold spring sexually assaulted him. And let him go. I think all the information. The the need was actually a. Billable to them on January thirteenth fourteenth fifteenth and sixteenth of nineteen eighty nine with the culturing case and Helen for Smith should have been able to solve all three sets of crimes Jacobs kidnapping, the assaults in Painesville, the kidnapping of the boy in cold spring following evidence that strongly suggested that they'd all been committed by the same person old Crosby three cases. He says the same types of things is voices described my multiple victims as deep recipe and very distinctive Gudmundsson had especially tough words for the work of the FBI. He said the F B wouldn't let other investigators work on parts of the case that it started out looking to widely without focus that they'd failed to share them for mation with other agencies involved in the case and that the FBI botched interrogation of Heinrich in the early months of the investigation. But I don't wanna get into a debate with the about the truth. I have laid out. I think in a measure, clear concise and precise manner. The way I saw based on the reading of the file if they somehow challenge my assessment released their files, they've got files release. Sheriff Gudmundsson even talked about all those psychics all the time that was wasted pursuing leads from the worst possible. Sources do know. Your investigation is already off the rails. When you're dealing with psychics to twenty fours less than forty eight hours deduction. There was a lot of contact with psychics in this case, they are right about precisely nothing. Israel's dealing with psychics before an excellent neighborhood canvasses ever done. They're also clairvoyance tarot cards Indian medicine men, which ING rods satanists food which craft hypnosis premonitions and dreams and repressed memory reports in the file. There are thousands of pages of unnecessary redundant detailed. And ultimately meaningless reports about trivial like kind of pizza ordered movies watched or large amounts of toilet tissue. Ordered sheriff Gudmundsson kept coming back to this. How baffling it was that win law enforcement had this man, Danny Heinrich and their sites. Investigators had for some reason decided it made more sense to investigate people who had nothing connecting them to this case. These leads were followed up on owns a bakery. And is weird. A pair of police. Drunks described weirdos the mentally challenged ill it three hundred fifty pound man, domestic assault perpetrators delusional loans, small child drawing incest with a female and it man with a piercing stare. As a news conference continued sheriff started getting into some areas of the investigation some details that I hadn't known about before. And a lot of these details had to do with Heinrich. It turns out that investigators had even more reasons to suspect Heinrich than I'd been aware of Heinrich had lied a lot to the investigators. And they've caught him in those lies like Heinrich told them that he didn't wear military style clothing in his everyday life. But investigators had found out that wasn't true. They talked to people who told them that Heinrich or stuff like that all the time. And that was important because some of the boys who'd been attacked in the years before Jacob described the attacker as wearing military style clothing. And then there was how Heinrich behaved when he knew the cops were watching him. Guzman's and said that investigators trailed Heinrich for parts of three days, and that Heinrich kept trying to shake the cops. He would go in circles double back one time. He just turned off his lights and disappeared. His actions certainly should have set off alarm bells since an innocent man would be unlikely to take driving maneuvers to escape the surveillance. And Gudmundsson said the F B I had even talked to a man who knew Heinrich back then told the FBI at Heinrich had approached him and Tober of nineteen Eighty-nine same month. Jake was kidnapped and asked him for advice on how to get rid of a body. But according to Godman as best to contol, no one followed up. We'll be right back. If you enjoy this show checkout believed, a new podcast about the women who brought down Dr Larry Nassar. He abused hundreds of women and girls, including many gymnasts for more than twenty years, the hosts Kate wells and Lindsay Smith show, you how it happened believed. A new limited run podcast from Michigan radio and NPR. Subscribe now at apple podcasts or ever you. Get your podcasts. One of the biggest questions I'd had even after reporting was done was what investigators had done with Heinrich for the long stretch of time. The twenty seven years between the time they first investigated him after the kidnapping to a few years ago when Hinrichs name came up again, according to the sheriff based on his review of the file the answer was nothing. There was not a single mention of Danny Heinrich in the investigative file for twenty years by June of nineteen ninety Heinrich is essentially forgotten. They just stopped looking at Heinrich. There was nothing significant pointed away from him. There was no stronger suspect to distract the cops. These investigators just seem to forget about him. I asked retired. Detectives did you ever take run? Why wouldn't you think of going back and taking a run at this guy? They all said, no, they don't give me a good explanation for that. And have you see the the FBI did not also think of taking a run atom? We certainly all have responsibility accountability for that. It was our investigators who were there. It's our investigation. Certainly we should have. I will accept the responsibility. Speaking for all of law enforcement in this case, I will accept responsibility accountability for this that all of us. Fail. Sheriff Gudmundsson also announced several changes he'd made in the sheriff's office to try to prevent this kind of failure from happening again, the sheriff said he'd gotten rid of their system or deputies would rotate in and out of being detectives Anne at assigned permanently tenant to be in charge of investigations. The sheriff said he'd also assigned detective to review each unsolved case in Starnes county, including the nineteen seventy four murders a two young sisters, Mary and Suzanne Reeker we can't change what's happ. But we can learn. The sheriff also took questions, so our producer Natalie asked him something I asked whether anyone would face any professional consequences for what had happened in the investigation. And he said, no you can't discipline someone for messing up an investigation shoot seventy one people shot in Chicago in six people murdered and three weeks later. They had one person in custody. I mean, how's that going? But then how do you make things better? Like if you can't discipline someone for for my make things better by talking to people are currently work. You know, my staff is a very good understanding of this one of the messages for my detectives is look look at this. Do you want some dope light meet twenty seven years later, looking at your files. You don't do it. Right doing right. The first time. So at the end of the news conference operating on a pretty strict deadline ends we're there for like over an hour. And everyone's had a chance to ask their questions. Gudmundsson says thank you very much. She walks off from the podium, and then from behind me Al Garber stands up from the FBI from the FBI, the former lead agent on the wetter case, right, right? I was a commander diver stands up, and basically is like keep just needed to like refute. What governments inside basically fight back against all of his criticism of himself and the FBI. Turf to mine. And he goes share asking this news conference. He's crashing the news conference. And then garb goes up in front of the podium and starts to sort of bash. What gunman finish sad and just really fired back against a lot of the criticisms that governments made he was getting up there to fend himself. I've known Don Gudmundsson for many years and we've worked together a number of times. And I have a great deal of respect for dawn. And I I don't know what his motive is in this presentation, frankly, but I think that there are some important things you need to know to make this a positive experience not to make it all negative, and I took some notes as he was speaking. And I haven't prepared this presentation. So I'll do the best. I can from the notes I have. When he began the presentation saying it went off the rails. That was a clue to me and the clue was that he has his beliefs. He has his understanding, and he was going to make it fit the facts in this case. And I think that was wrong second thing. He is a very qualified man law enforcement officer is an I and I admire him, but what's missing from his credentials is has he ever worked. A case of this magnitude with this many agencies with this many investigators with with this this much emphasis, and maybe have gone. But if you have you didn't say you did. Few SAS nations Chicago's part of a test some of those you know, what L aren't you take it outside is it because? Take it outside. I don't think you wanna hear this, and that's unfortunate forever. And if anybody wants to hear what I got to say, I'm happy to tell you because I believe what I'm going to tell you. And I was there. I saw every day. So he likes starts to head outside. And of course, all the reporters are like we gotta go with them. We're all like following Algarve out up stairs out of the basement outside where it's like drizzling, and we're standing outside and from the sheriff's office in this like packed huddle. I was the the supervisor of the investigation for all the agencies, but there's some things I really have to say you have to hear these because and I mean, he did get into a few specifics. He said like, you know, gunman's and said, we only surveilled Heinrich for three days. That's ridiculous. That's absolutely ridiculous. It was it was -tuni-. Like we survey at him for two weeks. Four seven we conducted a twenty four seven surveillance of Heinrich for two weeks. And when I say, we you have to understand PCA agents police detectives F B I agents were sitting in the same room hearing, the same information no-one said you you're such and such agency off the leave the room. That's how -rageous of course, the way to clear the up would be for the FBI to release its own documents, which it is refusing to do right. He was highly emot-. Tional like he really seemed like he was on the defensive. But he's also like passionate about what he was saying. And then at some point somebody asked him like why like whether he would call the investigation of failure or something. And he was like like I was like no like, no, it wasn't a failure. Like, no it wasn't. Why was it a failure? And then he goes fine. You want me to call it a failure? It was a failure. Like we failed. Okay. We failed. If you wanna hear me say we failed because we didn't find Jacob alive. We found. He also said the. The release of the documents from the investigative file was something that another person had been waiting for for a long time that person is Dan rask's here. The man who lived on the dead end road and his driveway. Jacob waterline was abducted from the former sheriff John Sanur had told reporters that Dan was a quote person of interest in the case and that statement by sheriff Sanur combined with the decision of journalists to publish it ruined dance life. Dan is now suing Stearns county for damages at the news conference yesterday. The new sheriff didn't say anything about Dan rats here. When a reporter asked the sheriff about Dan, the sheriff said he couldn't comment because of the active litigation as for Danny Heinrich. The man who killed Jacob Wetering. He's still serving his prison sentence. Heinrich ended up being sent to prison in Massachusetts. It's called the federal medical center. Devon's it's the same prison or. Anthony Weiner is being held Heinrich is set to be released from prison in about fifteen years. His release date is March twenty eighth twenty thirty three. He'll be seventy years old. One of a set of documents released yesterday was a series of transcripts of phone calls between Danny Heinrich and his brother. Dave phone calls had been made when Heinrich was in jail in the past few years. I read these phone logs late last night and in them, Danny Heinrich complains to his brother about how it will be hard for him to be a known sex offender when he's released from prison. Heinrich's brother. Dave tries to console him. Dave says quote, well, hopefully, Trump does something about all the bullshit Heinrich said, quote, I don't know Trump is kind of I think against sex offenders. In the phone logs Heinrich doesn't express any remorse for what he did. At one point. He tells us brother that he did attack some of the boys in Painesville, but he said, quote, I was involved in a couple, but not all of them and mostly Heiner complains. And boasts he says everything's gone totally against ever since I confessed I'm being treated by some people totally different than it used to be. So that that a lot of people are pissing off because I didn't get charged with murder I got charged with one count of child pornography. That's what a lot of people are pissed off at about. That's the deal. I made I didn't have to confess to this because they didn't have shit on me as far as wider goes until I can find. So they would have never known if I wouldn't have said anything. We're still going through the forty one thousand seven hundred eighty seven pages of documents that were just released by Stearns county, we find anything else significant and the rest of our review come back and tell you about it. We've also posted some of the documents on our website in the dark podcast that org. So you can check them out for yourself. In the dark is reported and produced I mean, Madeline baron senior producer Smarr free. Mark producer, Natalie chip landscape, associate producer, Raymond car and reporters Parker. Yes. Go and we'll craft in the dark is edited. By Kathryn winter web. Editors are Dave, man. And Andy crews editor in chief of APM reports is Chris Worthington. Original music by Gary Meister, and Johnny Vince Evans.

Danny Heinrich sheriff Gudmundsson FBI Jacob Stearns county Minnesota kidnapping reporter producer Jacobs Stearns county sheriff's offic Painesville Dan rask Chicago surveilled Heinrich officer Jacob Wetering wetter Ling
Talking Arab-Israeli Peace with Acting Consul General Israel Nitzan

People of the Pod

27:45 min | Last week

Talking Arab-Israeli Peace with Acting Consul General Israel Nitzan

"Hello and welcome to people of the pod brought to you by HAC. Each week we take you beyond the headlines and help you understand what it all means for Israel and the Jewish people. I've seventy KOGEN and I'm on Uber Sheer. Pashmina. Israel needs on is a veteran. Israeli. Diplomat who has served in a diverse array of postings from Egypt to the UN to his current role as Israel's acting consul general in New York. There's been a lot of news out of Israel lately and Acting Consul General Nitzan joins us now to help us break it down and to share his country's view Israel. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. Now we wanted to have. You on this week in particular because Israel has brand new diplomatic ties with the UAE and bunkering and you are one of the relatively few Israeli diplomats who actually already has experience representing Israel in an Arab country what do you think actual practical on the ground peace with the in both rain might look like is it going to be similar to the Israel Egypt relationship that you know up close or is it going to be something totally different? Of. All I. think that it is different. This agreement is an important milestone region undermine stolen today in our Middle East. So we strategically and regionally, it strengthens our actually formalize ties within our relationship with very important regional glares in the Arab. Gulf. Sunni Arab countries who first of all perceived a threat posed by Iran we showed the perception of the threat posed by Iran and we agree also on the ways to address this threats basically I think that in the last few weeks I, think that both Israel and needs Sunni Arab neighbors in the Gulf called on the International. Community to continue in the maximum pressure on Iran. So this is at least from this angle. Secondly, you mentioned Egypt and I think that in many ways yes it is going to be a different kind of beast i. think it seems that is much warmer piece. I think that the key to peace in our region is encouraging more and more people to people engagement, and this is what we've seen in the last few weeks when people from the Gulf on social media, it seems clear that there are thrilled about the relationship very excited, actually encouraging and initiating a dialogue with Israelis This is great and I think that this is the key to any future of peace in our region especially with our neighbors that people people engagement is so key and it's so interesting. I mean Israel has had peace with Jordan for. Twenty Five Years Twenty six years peace with Egypt for even longer there's a little bit of Sinai tourism but like it's not a thing for Israelis to you know drive to Amman for lunch right? Do you think Israelis are going to fly to Dubai? Abu Dhabi. Fly to Montana and kind of explore the Arab, Gulf. I think definitely, yes. Of course, we are in a different reality to covid nineteen but I think that the expectation is already an ongoing dialogue between Israelis and moralities over zoom Israeli universities, research centres startups have already reached out and initiated this very important dialogue with their colleagues into golf. They'll talking about basically using our innovative meaning both Israel and the UAE innovative spirit. You know the the needs of people and I think that this is also one thing that is clear that the idea here in this piece that we prioritize both Israel in the UAE, prioritize the needs. Of their people and this is the first step you know to promote the regional peace no. As we said, there is an ongoing dialogue between the peoples between Israeli civil society between startups between companies in Israel I. think that You you mentioned my experience in Egypt and I think that what? I know from my experience in Egypt, the pieces for our job I need must be nurtured, and in many ways, the key to everything is education especially educating the younger generation basically educating them to accept the other two except the different to accept Israel as a legitimate neighbor. In many ways, I, think that the secret to success of any peace in our region will be found in the media and the textbooks, and basically these two means educating people today first of all in the media forming an encouraging public opinion supportive of peace. And also the textbooks educating the leaders of tomorrow through schools, universities, and basically educating them about accepting the other accepting Israel as a neighbor as A. Member neighbor-. Neighborhood what about the diplomatic change that this could usher and you spent years at the UN up until now the UAE and Buchan along with the rest of the Arab countries they've all been reliable votes against Israel by the way there are plenty of countries who already have normal or even positive relations with Israel that nevertheless often vote against the the UN is this deal going to change the way the Emirati and the puck? Rainey's vote. Does it open up any diplomatic possibilities in these multi-national bodies like the United Nations? I think that we should differentiate from my experience at the UN which the friendship between the dynamics let's say on the stage in the general assembly whole and behind the scenes they're voting patterns are let's say not very supportive of Israel. Say the least but behind the scenes there is and there has been a very, very intensive dialogue. I'm. From my experience and there's only diplomatic. The UN. Also, not too long ago I had very good relations with diplomats from Sunni Arab world especially from the Gulf we had excellent dialogue and discussions on insured concerns especially related to the region especially related to the challenge and the threats posed by Iran and its nuclear program, its missile program, and they have excellent diplomats. And we had very good and productive conversations, and of course was behind the scenes today we can actually talk about it I. Don't know if they're going to change the voting patterns soon, but I can tell you that our expectation is that good relations and good cooperation. Bilateral cooperation should also be translated into policies in the multilateral arena I'll admit I wasn't holding. My breath for good news on the front. But I had to ask one element of the Israel deal is that the US is apparently going to sell the F thirty five Joint Strike Fighter, the most advanced warplane in the world. Perhaps the most advanced weapon of any kind in the world to the United Arab. Emirates Israel and Israel's friends in the US have. Long advocated for the need to maintain Israel's qualitative military edge or Q emmy over the rest of the countries in the region the thinking went that many of these countries are hostile to Israel. Many of them have unstable governments who knows if one of these governments should fall where these weapons could end up et CETERA ET CETERA is Israel concerned about the weapons deal I have to say that I think that such a dialogue with the United States and I think that you you know very well, it's a long term and this dialogue is an intimate dialogue that has been taking place for many many years and I think that we should keep it over there. I think that we enjoy again part of our very special relations with the United States is having a frank and honest and direct dialogue behind closed doors as allies should do and. I have to say that we are also encouraged by the way not only by the support of the administration but also there is a very vast bipartisan support to the agreement and the role of the United States in encouraging such a relationship between Israel and its Arab neighbors. So again, the dialogue with the United States is very intimate. It's very close between the both the administration and the government and between the American people of course in Israel, and we should keep it like that. AJC, of course, works assiduously to maintain the bipartisan support for Israel and I know that you and your colleagues in the Ministry of Foreign, Affairs feel very strongly about that as well. Israel while the deal was being signed at the white. House this week, the Abraham accords literally at the very same moment terrorists were firing rockets from Gaza into Israel actually injuring a couple of this rally civilians including I. saw a sixty two year old father of fifteen children who is delivering food to the needy in advance of Russia. The Palestinian Authority over in the West Bank issued a less lethal message, but it was no less of a utter rejection of the deal. What's Israel's response to this kind of firm opposition from the Palestinians to these deals. I think that what is clear that this agreement Abram agreement actually draws a very clear line. That differentiate between two camps in our region. There's the camp of peace led by Israel the U. E. Bahar Lane and Saudi Arabia is also an important member in this camp schools Egypt Jordan and many other Sunni Arab countries our region on the other side we have the camp before and the chemical terrorism Iran and its proxies his Beila Hamas. The Palestinian Islamic. Jihad what happened was not surprised when they decided to shoot the rockets as was virtually message from the chemical terror against. Basically, a stork event that promotes peace in our region they'll fighting piece, they're fighting our future and the future of peace in our region and regarding the Palestinians first of all the agreement. The April mcchord serves as the you know the to advance, not only the interest of the people that actually as a first step to advance peace, the Middle East, and first of all, we hope that other neighbors other Arab countries will follow the leading role of the UA in behind and join this camp of east for dialogue and signing peace agreements with Israel. Should also serve as a mean to bring the Palestinians back to dialogue with with Israel and as I said, you know since we're talking about clear distinction between two camps, you know region of Palestinian choose whether or not they choose the path of peace. With all the advantages of peace to the people in the region. Or the camp of war and terrorism and I hope that they will choose wisely. There's a clip going around on twitter today of former US Secretary of State John Kerry speaking in two thousand. Sixteen at the Sedan Forum, he says I think five times in a row. He Says No, no, no, no no, and what he's saying no to is whether there's any chance that Israel and the Gulf Arab states could improve their relations beyond a certain point before an accord is reached between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Now it's hard to fault John Kerry. This was kind of the revealed wisdom the Torah. For a huge chunk of the world most of the West, the US Europe basically everyone felt this was one kind of peace paradigm that existed. There's a glass ceiling. It's a good thing that Israel and the Gulf states are talking, but there's a glass ceiling to how close they can get until Israel reaches a final conclusion to the Israeli. Palestinian. Conflict. Now, there was another paradigm all along. It was kind of the Israeli revisionist Zionist right paradigm. You could trace it back to Jabotinsky but certainly Benjamin's The prime minister has been a major proponent of this other paradigm that said that actually Israel can't solve its problems with the Palestinians until Israel really feels that it is negotiating from a place of strength that it is found its place among the nations that it belongs in the neighborhood in the Middle East and the Arabs have come to agree with that. How is it possible that so many smart well, meaning people in the US in Europe have ended up getting it wrong. First of all again, this agreement, the agreement with the U. E.. Yes. It's a paradigm shift. First of all, it is related to the interests of the people. It's related to what Israel the importance of Israel in the Middle East with Israel actually can give as constructive innovative positive neighbor in the Middle East. So this is one thing and secondly, eight is also related to the fact that the Palestinians I. Can share again from my experience of the UN the Palestinians I'd be hijacking the agenda of the world of Arab diplomacy for many years and people are quite fed up with this and they said, listen you know we will engage with we have other issues on the agenda. We have threat posed by Iran. But if he's Bala by WHO Thenia men we have serious challenges, serious security challenges in the Middle East. We cannot basically followed blindly the footsteps of the Palestinians and we need to shift the paradigm to change the agenda and engaging constructively. With Israel, we can actually bring peace to the region changed the atmosphere changed the agenda and actually falls the Palestinians back into dialogue. So I think that the way it is related to other interests in the region it's related to the role of Israel and what Israel is all about the Israeli innovation in the region, and also again the Palestinian rejectionism they could not play with it for too long. I understand where basically out of time. So let me just say Israel that the state of Israel enters into a new lockdown dealing with the second wave of covid that all of our hearts and minds and thoughts and prayers are with our brothers and sisters in Israel where we're sending all the best to them and to you let me say again, thank you for joining us in China that. May Add to more things. One I think I should acknowledge full the role of usually the we mentioned the United States, who engine Israel we mentioned our Arab neighbors but. American. Jewish leaders who is in especially the agency had a very important role in facilitating such dialogue nurturing such a dialogue for many many years and I think we'll appreciate the knowledge they're very important and constructive role in bringing peace to the Middle East. And secondly to issue and our listeners and of course, our dear friends in AJC should not have an happy new year and anything a healthy. New Year I hope to able to bring some more good news from our region very soon. Thank you. Israel's be waiting for it. Thank you very much. Now. It's time for our closing segment, Chabad table talk and joining us at archambault table. This week is Benji Rogers AJC's associate director of policy and Middle East initiatives Benji when you're talking with your family at your table this weekend, what are you going to be talking about well, money and Sophie thank you so much for having me on the show I'm a big fan and I'm particularly excited to be able to share with you what I'm GonNa talk about, and that is hope now hope is not a very common thing for somebody who studies the Middle East to be speaking about. I have been blessed to spend so much time in the Middle East traveling living I've fallen in love with the people, the culture, the society, the dynamics. But particularly, if you look at Modern Day history and particularly last ten years this is a region that has faced a lot of adversity. This is a region that is dealing with three different civil wars. We've all seen the carnage in Syria I think our heart breaks when we think of Yemen and I think we grow increasingly worried when we look at what's going on in Libya right now to say nothing of the fact that you know this is a region of close to. Four hundred million people just in the Arab world alone between sixty to sixty five percent of the population is under the age of thirty. It's really a staggering statistic and it just shows you the needs that are really going to be coming up in the next decade in terms of jobs and not just any jobs with good jobs, real jobs, jobs that people want the challenges are huge and the stakes are incredibly high yet on Tuesday. This past Tuesday, we saw something quite remarkable something quite hopeful take place and that was the signing of a peace accord between Israel with the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain Really A. Peace Accord a peace accord that has now doubled the amount of air countries that Israel's relations with Jordan, which was signed in nineteen, ninety four and before that Egypt in one thousand seventy-nine, both agreements were historic in their own, right? Really shattering in terms of the security for the region security for Israel. Security Egypt security for. Jordan. Yet what is new? What is exciting about the peace agreements between Israel Dui and buckling is that for the first time, we're really seeing a warm peace, a peace that doesn't just fall with the government's but a piece that's looking to drop down to the personal level. Every single day we've seen some sort of new story about a new delegation going over a new agreement that's been made between these three countries. I think just last week we saw something about one of the major academic institutions, scientific institutions in Israel citing agreement with a new and emerging Emirati university on all things but artificial intelligence. Who would have thought? It really is a remarkable thing. And I think when we were talking about hope when we're thinking about hope, we have to look at the region as a whole and we have to look at all these challenges and there is no doubt that this agreement can solve all this challenges. It's impossible. It's too big. But I think when we look forward, we are now seeing what we hope will be the beginnings of cooperation but we hope will be a way forward, and the way that says, what we've done in the past has not necessarily worked. Let's acknowledge each other. Let's understand that each of us can get to know one another get to understand one another, and through that, we can find new beginnings through that we can take a step forward to at least addressing the issues whatever something historically this happens I always like to think back to my favorite Mandela quote which goes something like it's always impossible until somebody. Does it and I think that's what we have saw what we saw on Tuesday, which was everybody said the Israeli Palestinian conflict would be this intractable conflict that would not be able to move forward, and in fact, we have seen that it can move forward I think it would be disingenuous not to mention the Israeli Palestinian conflict and to only note because I think we have an entire session on this alone but to only note that I think are particularly our hope at AJC is that all the frustrations with all the worry with all the uncertainties our hope is that this presents new opportunities to move forward. And so this Chabad, I think what I'm going to be talking about at my table is hope and furthermore at Russia China as we celebrate the New Year and it really is I think at telling time this has been a tough year for everybody I don't need to go into detail but it's been a year of sorrow. It's been a year of tragedy and it's been a year of division I. Think it is really a nice thing to be able to say look what we can achieve with. Hope look what we can achieve coming together, and as we enter the next year, let's be clear eyed about the challenges that lay ahead. But let's remember that together there's a way for. That's beautiful. Benji thank you. This is a very special for us here at people of the pod because it's not only the end of the Jewish year but it's also the end of Montana's first year as my co host. Our podcast got immeasurably better a year ago because Manja joined us now she's an old pro and I'm thrilled to see what the next year will bring money other than celebrating this important milestone. What are you going to be talking about it your dinner? shucks. Steffi. Thank you for noting that it's been a year and what a fun year it has been at your side. Benji. Steffi at our Chabad table and our Russia Shawna table. This weekend, we will celebrate life and the length someone in our extended family is willing to go to sustain it. Benji I really appreciate your message on hope because it's relevant here too I share the story with permission because he wants his message heard and his voice amplified because next week during the ten days of awe, he will lose his voice forever. Paul has been fighting esophageal cancer for a little over five years. He has had devastating setbacks remarkable remissions followed by more devastating setbacks thirty one rounds of Chemo, fifty-six Radiation Treatments, and more than fifty surgical procedures. I never know what to expect when I see his sister at family gatherings and ask for an update. I can always tell by the look on her face before she fills me an. On September twenty, third Pablo undergo surgical procedure that entails removing his stomach goose voice box while repositioning his windpipe out the front of his neck through a whole called stone in a heartbreaking and inspiring message to his loved ones. He said the decision to have this life altering surgery was the easiest one. He's ever made because it meant more time with his left ones more time to live life. Here's what he said. Looking back five and a half years ago as I was on the heels of commencing this cancer journey, I made a promise to myself. I would do anything to live I didn't care about pain disfigurement with disability I owe it to my family and to myself. After losing his father when Paul was eleven years old, he talked about not wanting to put his children through the same grief. He wants to see his youngest bar Mitzvah in two years. He wants to see his children graduate college walked down the aisle give him grandchildren I am addicted to life. He said I love life simple as that. I. Love What Life has to offer. It's a beautiful world. Paul has reinvented himself a former podiatrist. He now counsels cancer patients and lectures for staff at Sloan Kettering on the emotional aspects of cancer. This global pandemic has taken an emotional toll on us in ways we don't realize. And as I washed, my neighbors put up there Biden Harris and trump pen signs. This week I realized if the upcoming election season is going to take yet another toll. So. Many of my friends have lost loved ones forever. So many more of US long to hug our mothers again whether she's in Texas or in a senior living facility or just down the street the pandemic has prompted many of us to consider the things we have taken for granted but in the midst of juggling the increasing challenges of day to day life. Russia Shawna offers us the opportunity to pause and reflect on what we often take for granted. Those. Hugs. Our lives our voices. For this about table talk, I will let Paul offer the last word. After this surgery my voice will not be silenced on the contrary I will have a greater voice in this world. My goal is to continue to help others reinvent themselves like I don after all my knockdowns as Rosh Hashanah approaches. Let us all try to reinvent ourselves. Let's transform ourselves into better people. Let's hear are true Boise's And to that I say, well, I am Seffi what will you be talking about this week? Thanks so much for sharing that Monnaie. I'm pretty sure Atara and Kukoc are crying right now. I remember last year when you Kippur ended I, was distraught to turn on my phone after a beautiful day filled with incredible uplifting prayer to learn that some Jews were not afforded the same opportunity because the synagogue in which they praying in Hallo- Germany was attacked by a Neo Nazi while Jews around the world had been communing with God asking him to guarantee us life in the year ahead these Jews were cowering behind a locked reinforced door quite literally praying for their lives. Their prayers were answered. The gunman couldn't get in and defeated. He left the synagogue. Tragically, he found other targets though murdering a bystander outside the synagogue and then driving to a Turkish Kebab shop in his mind Muslim immigrants were almost as bad as Jews and killing one person there. But. The story doesn't end at the Kebab shop. For one thing, the Neo Nazis trial has been unfolding this year for another the to Turkish brothers who owned the store who were working there on the day of the attack have been dealing with personal traumatic stress with the stigma of having been the site of a murder and with the implications of the corona virus on restaurants enter the studio. Deutschland, the Jewish Student Union of Germany and the president a mentioned named. Ruben. Girka Gov, who I've gotten to know through his involvement with AJC Jason as the Union calls itself decided that they wanted to help these two Turkish brothers quote the Jewish student. Union in Germany, believe in a multicultural society in this country, the students wrote on a crowdfunding campaign page quote we believe in a peaceful coexistence regardless of religion nationality or skin color we believe in solidarity. Apparently others believe in it too. Because in just days, the group has shot past their initial goal of raising five thousand euros to support these two Turkish brothers and hoped to raise thousands more something terrible happened on Yom Kippur last year and two people were killed but rather than wallow in self pity the Jews of Germany stood up demanded that their government keep them safe and worked to help ensure the safety of others what a lesson for us all and what a way to end the year Shabazz shallow and Shana Tova Shabbat Shalom and Shana Tova Shebek Gelo should not do that. You can subscribe to people of the pot on I, tunes Google play or spotify or learn more at AJC dot org slash people of the Pie, the views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. We'd love to hear your views and opinions or your questions. You can reach us at people of the pod at Ej c born if you like this podcast be shooter rated and writer review to help more listeners find us. Thank you for listening. This episode is brought to you by AJC. Our producer is COO condo. Our assistant producer is a Tarlac Rats and our sound engineer is t k Broddrick tune in next week for another episode of people of the Pot.

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