6 Episode results for "Israeli Administration"
65: Waste Siege: Infrastructure and the Environment in Israel/Palestine with Sophia Stamatopoulou-Robbins
"Welcome to jewish history matters. I'm jason let's dig and today. I'm joined by sophia d'amato pulu robbins to talk about how we can look at israel and palestine and global issues on a large scale in new ways through the fascinating lens of waste the byproducts of human society. And what we do with them. It's an important perspective because we often look at israel. Palestine and the middle east at large in terms of resources. Things like water and oil and sofia's book which is titled witnessed the life of infrastructure in palestine offers a new perspective by looking not at the resources but at the by products of society and so this turns everything on its head in exciting and incredibly challenging ways as she puts it. The experience of palestinians being besieged by waste both describes the state of statelessness and palestine and specifically the challenges of infrastructure in that particular situation but it also serves as a metaphor for a dying planet as a whole sophia stucco. Palu robbins is an assistant professor of anthropology at bard college. Her book waste siege. Which we'll talk about today on. The podcast was awarded the twenty twenty albert harani book award from the middle. east studies. Association waste siege offers exciting and innovative approach to thinking about israel and palestine and the lived experience of palestinians in particular through the lens of waste as palestinians are increasingly forced into proximity with their own wastes as well as those of his rallies. What happens when this waste is transformed from what we might call matter out of place into matter that has no place to go. This is a powerful and provocative approach because it articulates matter of fact aspects of what life is like in the palestinian territories but it also offers us a conceptual framework to ask questions about the byproducts of zionism and its history in both practical and metaphorical terms what have been the outcomes of the rise of jewish nationalism and the formation of the state of israel. The many people would prefer to push off to the side or out of sight on a more global scale. This waste siege on the palestinians calls on us to think about the nature of our planet at large considering the climate crisis. Careening towards us. How can the experience of the palestinians speak to the broader phenomenon of the global south and it's encounter with the waste of the industrialized world. They really is so much to delve into with this. And i'm just incredibly excited to be able to share this conversation with you. I hope that you'll check out. The book waste siege. And i've also posted a link to an excerpt in the show notes. Thanks for listening. Hi sophie welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us to talk about this really exciting book and some of the big issues. We can take away from it. Thank you. I'm super excited to be here. Yeah the title was just so phenomenal. And the topic and the issues that you're dealing with such an interesting and distinctive approach to thinking about issues in israel and palestine hoping that maybe you could get us started by explaining a bit about what you mean when you talk about a waste siege so to speak you know what this means in terms of lives experience with the palestinians and also generally speaking the concept of being under siege by waste and why this is an important and useful idea to think with well just start by defining waste siege. Broadly i think of it as the condition of encirclement by wastes as the in escape ability from wastes and from a sense of wastefulness. That's the obvious part. Which is you know the sense of being besieged but the second part is that in waste siege the same burdensome materials that constitute the siege also constitute the sort of menu of materials that you can use to alleviate the burdens of that same siege so in other words we siege is circular. But it's also always changing because people are kind of engaging with the materials and experiences or processes of waste siege in order to mitigate and therefore changing its form or its shape but sort of helping it also be carried forward. That's kind of very abstract conceptual way to talk about what we sieges when we talk about the waste. Siege taking place Particularly in the gaza strip in the west bank. What does this mean in specific terms in the west bank palestinians are inundated by wastes. That end up coming across the green line from israel but they're also inundated very much by their own wastes. That is a kind of a historically intensified situation so in a way i am making a historical argument in the book by saying that really after the nineteen nineties after oslo. A huge kind of uptick and we've production by palestinian society as well as waste inundation by israeli society in the west bank and palestinian areas of the west bank the everyday experience of policy mians involves a kind of constant interaction at multiple different scales with various wastes. So you know one really iconic of a person walking on a road and let's say ramallah or on the way to qalandia checkpoint and just walking by block after block of dumpsters overflowing with waste that are then being burned to mitigate the size of that high all in the dumpster and you know that being kind of escape -able experience for someone who's living their daily life in the west bank. There's that and then there's the scale of people who are in the palestinian bureaucracy with whom i spent a lot of time in municipalities and in the palestinian authority who are trying to trouble shoot at a policy level either at the skill of the city or village or at the scale of the west bank as a whole what to do essentially with the accumulations of waste. I do wanna say that. I'm really interested in the multiple scales. The person with the trash fire next them as they walked to school. And also the bureaucrat. Who's thinking about the future of palestine being inundated with wastes. Yeah there are so many different ways in which we can take this. I think that part of what's at stake here is the way in which waste helps us to conceive of the situation in israel and palestine. Kind of speaking. How is it that waste helps us to think through kind of really big issues about the nature of what's been taking place in israel and palestine both recently and also over the course of the past generations if i can answer that kind of diagonally. I'll just say that. The way that this project came about was that i was thinking a lot about the way that people responded to hamas winning the two thousand six elections the legislative elections and what we were hearing primarily from people who are kind of on the center or to the left was that palestinians had voted even palestinians who were not in particular supporters of hamas or of political islam. Were voting for what thomas representative in terms of welfare and infrastructure provision because the lead. Pa had failed to provide certain forms of welfare an infrastructure. And you know it really struck me that there was such a quick easy move to say that people voted on the basis of what they thought about infrastructure and welfare. And i thought you know that's really not the way we tend to think about the developed world to put it bluntly or you know the global north that usually they're more factors at play when we think about politics and electoral politics and then the thing that really struck me to that. You really can't make that move so easily in a place like palestine. I mean in particular the west bank or gaza where there hasn't been the experience of a state in the long term so that you don't have the accumulation of experience of holding accountable essential government when things go wrong in fact you have multiple governments and of course since the mid nineties you have international donors playing a really huge role and then you have the kind of layer cake of the israeli administration the palestinian authority and and municipalities and other ngos et cetera. So i thought that from by looking at something that is so fundamental to everyday life like waste and thinking about when people get upset basically when there waste accumulations whom they blame when they act when they feel. They don't need to act. That would understand something about kind of what infrastructure has to do it politics essentially in at the turn of the twenty first century and then i was really interested also in the fact that waste at that time when i was starting in two thousand seven was really not being talked about at all. I mean i think there were sort of discussions of the environment. There were discussions of water. But there was very little on waste. And so. I figured methodologically. If i went to palestine and ask people about waste they would have less rehearsed answers essentially than they do for something like water or electricity where there have been being inundated with by researchers and journalists. Who want ask. Some questions about that may have already answered. You set a little bit about how you came to this topic. You know why waste was particularly interesting to you but what is it about waste. That helps us to think through big questions about what's been happening in terms of israel and the palestinian territories. You know what is going on there. You know both in terms of you mentioned the history of infrastructure and also in terms of the history of the relationship between society. The government and the palestinians in between later also the jewish settlements in the west bank and the palestinians. Living there as well like what is waste. Give us as a lens to think through kind of what's going on on a bigger scale. One way to answer that is to say that it helps us look at multiple scales at the same time so one question that kind of answers and it may be a question that we don't realize we have or we should have but that question is who governs the west bank and you could get the answer by looking at this material and where it goes and how it's processed and when it's left there when capital gets invested to place in certain places or treated in certain ways i think from those very impractical tangible practices and sites we can see who is kind of managing this territory and that such an important thing for us to know politically above all because since the mid nineteen ninety s. Either you have people saying that. The palestinian authority now that it exists is the government. You have that coming from various political positions where there's an assumption that whether or not it is recognized fully as sovereign it can be held accountable for various things like it exists and it is the government and then you have other people who sort of its presence including at some point. I remember early in my project. I had faculty telling me you know really. You wanna talk about the pa. They're not really doing anything you know and i thought like you to find out what they are doing and if they are doing something from a project that looks waste but then you do have people who think that you know. Essentially the pa is to which the israeli administration has out sourced its occupation and so it's sort of treated as a neutral conduit. You know that does israel's bidding and that therefore sort of doesn't deserve its own analysis beyond what it does to facilitate essentially the occupation. And i think that waste enabled me to see the very dumps and thick and complicated network which includes donors which includes companies which includes people who are not sort of formed in something that's legible and coherent. Who might just be people in a neighborhood who are all managing the every day together. And i think that's important to understand that we know how we want to name the condition essentially that we are looking at when we look at contemporary occupied palestine. There's a lot going on. there's lots of think about. You're talking about like the ways in which the palestinian authority plays different kinds of roles in terms of occupation in terms of the day-to-day life of the palestinians themselves. And it's interesting. Because i think that when we think about basic infrastructure people don't think about it for the most part when it works properly right you know when you turn the tap in your apartment and clean. Water comes out. No one gives that any thought or really for the most part people. Don't any thought it's one there's failures infrastructure and thinking about like for instance you know questions clean water or when it comes to waste management or i know like nuclear power plants and people may not pay attention to what kind of plant is producing their power until it turns out that it was a nuclear plant that melted down. Or you know if they somehow see the direct outcome of a coal-based plant or something ultimately. It's a question of what is the role of infrastructure in society. I think that's part of what's really interesting. Here in general also speaks to the question of what's taking place in terms of the history of israel and palestine over the course of the past hundred years if not more which is the question of what does it mean to build up infrastructure so much of the zionist movement. The building of the shoe later the state of israel was an attempt to try to construct infrastructure to increase the absorptive capacity of the land. And then later on. Also you think about you know. What does this mean in terms of the palestinians. Well there's so much going on here as we think about the history of infrastructure and about how waste is a useful element that people tend not to think about in terms of their daily lives. Yeah i mean if i can respond to a couple of things there one just point on that. Last thing that you mentioned is that i was struck by the fact that my observations of the efforts the palestinian authority was making to build waste. Infrastructures was Those early zionist efforts. You know that kind of focus on independent infrastructure essentially no matter what and i say no matter what because they're all kinds of ways in which that presented challenges for construction so for example. Israel would often say we'll let you build a wastewater treatment plant as long as you connect it to a settlements wastewater treatment plant and the. Pa would say a red line. We won't because the point is to build the infrastructure of the state. I want to say that vision. And the insistence of the palestinian authority to build the infrastructures that it imagined to be the foundation of a future state took the oxygen out of the room. In terms of what other possibilities there could be for taking care of waste and of course the assumption was and this is going to get us a little bit toward are kind of capitalism climate change direction the assumption was definitely that we consume and we produce waste at the normal speed of any normal ideally normal society and then we build the infrastructures to house those wastes. But we don't try to limit what we produce because we're still in the process of becoming what everybody else's which i think something that you find. In general and the global south. I would say that people and infrastructure studies who study it in the global south. There have been making this point over and over again which is important which is in a lot of places like basically the postcolonial world. Let's say infrastructures are just failing. All the time one interesting question to ask is do people perceive it to be a problem. In those cases or is there a kind of a normality to infrastructural failure. Such that something else becomes the abnormal thing you notice. you know. I happen to do my research in this special moment when the pa was trying to build up infrastructures from scratch for waste like infrastructures that did not previously exist. It was disrupting essentially processes and practices of managing waste in the name of order a new order but in ways that were very disruptive to people who had become accustomed to for example dumpsites being at the edge of every municipality instead of being few and centralized know two or three across the whole west bank. So what could look like failure. Now from the perspective was successful management. At that time. So i think the question of perception and how populations experience infrastructural failures super interesting. I think that that is really important for us to place this in terms of the specific context of palestine the political military struggles. That are taking place there which is to say that. I think that part of what's interesting about the concept of waste siege as a framework for thinking about the status of the palestinians the experience of the palestinians. It changes the register in which we're thinking about it. Because i think that when people talk about the israeli palestinian conflict when people talk about the occupation the building of settlements and so on and so forth. It's i think often in terms of thinking about politics political rights you know freedom citizenship statehood and so on the idea of wastage helps us to reframe this entirely to say that this is not just about being besieged by military force right or besieged politically or in any other way but kind of a a fundamental experience of being buried in the waste of everything that surrounding them. That is an entirely different kind of register of thinking about the nature of the experience of the palestinians. Yeah it's funny that you say that because the question of how wastage relates to this thing we call politics. Is i think an open question. I mean i think some people might have liked this book to be more. Obviously making a statement that there is one direct cause and it's like this is the story of israel dumping on the west bank for example but the siege has come about because of really a number of different sometimes even competing processes and. Yeah i mean. I guess one way to distill what it does is to say it centers the question of liveability kind of an ugly word. But it's interesting that we think about. How palestinians experiences have become unlivable. What the materiality and liveability are that feels like something. We've already kind of known. I guess when we talk about ethnic cleansing or slow expulsion we often hear about it. Becoming unlivable maybe economically especially especially for palestinians to live in the west bank so they ended up emigrating but this is a way to say you know the kind of foundations of material life consumption and waste production and then besieged by waste also contribute to that uneven liveability of the broader territory of israel palestine also raises all sorts of questions about the nature of a future palestinian state. Which is to say like you said is a future palestinian state livable. And this of course it goes back to the water question as well. It's like will if future palestinian state. Whatever its borders may look like people often focus on what they have access to the resources in order to have a sustainable state. But it's also will they have a place to put all the waste which is just the natural byproduct in a way of a sort of a modern capitalist society. Yeah i think the other thing to unpack there and what you said is the natural part. I know you said natural. Byproduct of capitalist society as opposed to just natural byproduct of human society. But i think that was another thing that struck me in my research was how kind of committed the people in charge were meaning essentially like constellation of pa donors and the elements of the israeli state that support and promote the pa's existence. How committed everyone is to continue. On a capitalist path you know where this question of how livable future state becomes kind of intense and sounds very gloomy. because it's assumed that people will be producing this much waste or that at the rate that they're currently producing it. For example i mean i think another question about the future of a state or political belonging on the territory has to do with kind of if you look at the infrastructure even this what you see between israel and the west bank. The israeli state promotes the construction for example of landfills in the west bank and meanwhile is on a path to eradicating landfalls for israel because they're considered environmentally hazardous and in fact kind of technologies that preempt the future or that you know foreclose certain future is ecologically speaking. It would be interesting for the people who are thinking about the kind of state they want in the future to consider what it would look like to even out the territory in terms of what the infrastructure could do. I think that's a little bit vague. I was struck by that segregation and unevenness between the infrastructures. You're talking about waste in the book and also in this conversation on a bunch of different levels on the one very practical questions about the infrastructure in what does it mean to build up the infrastructure of a society in order to manage all different aspects of people's lives including the persian of waste. But this also the ways in which this history. It's not just a process of the past fifteen twenty years but the idea of waste the metaphor of waste and byproducts of history is potentially a through line through which we can think about the history of israel and palestine. That's interesting on a number of levels that makes me wish that this had been also more historical project you know. I'm thinking about the fact that as i was saying before that in parts of the west bank it takes sewage that flows on the surface of the land up to thirty years to make it all the way down into the deepest aquifers so that the polluted water. That might come up from. Aquifers is the product of activities. That took place that many years ago. The other historical feature that. I'm interested in is the way that certain forms of detection of an expertise have influenced the way that wastage could even be experienced or conceived of at this point so specifically. I'm again. I'm thinking about sewage. It took a certain kind of technology to detect that there were nitrates in the water from sewage and before that they simply were not known until they possibly made a body sick for example so that kind of making visible the invisible elements of waste siege. It's history but i think we can see a shift from the metaphorical understanding of palestine as a territory as a wasteland. That sort of should be settled. In fact to be redeemed by design est movement that kind of turning into a literal kind of tangible fact by the turn of the twenty first century. I think is interesting. And then the other interesting element for me is that this is a pattern and settler colonies a move from them that metaphor to the reality where you find indigeneous populations usually ending up most acutely exposed to the harmful elements of waste and besieged. And that's about. How populations get organized in the kinds of access to rates. They have their couple of different things that you mentioned that are really interesting. The first one being the metaphor of waste right like the idea like you said of palestine is kind of a waste landed the imagination of europeans and and zionists in this idea of an empty place that should be settled that turns into reality. and then there's also the question of the by products of history itself in the sense that. If we kind generalize our notion of waste us in like about any kind of social historical economic process is going to have outcomes. Whatever that is and in the question is what do you do with the byproducts of history and this both very practical in terms of like what do you do with your cardboard boxes that you get from amazon right or we'll plastic water bottle also question of you know what happens to people who are left to the side of history and here. The question of palestinian refugees you i think is really important. I want to be very clear. I'm not saying that. The palestinians are a waste product history but the focus here is to think about from the perspective of many people especially within israel. They don't wanna talk about the palestinians they offer to push them off to the side in the same way that they don't want to think about what happens to their trash bag when they put the side of the street. And it's this general issue of like what is the notion of waste. What is the notion of products of human society. Both in terms of our present day kind of over the course of history how that is an important aspect of trying to make meaning of the various strands of experiences of people over the past generations. I think this is a great point. And i would even expand it to say i think you essentially set it at the end that let's say for israelis especially people who live in israel since the erection of the wall all palestinians who are in the territories. Let's say and let's say the late. Nineteen ninety s onward. It's not even just the refugees who are kind of ceased to be fought of but all palestinians. And i think what's maybe interesting to think about to connect the metaphorical with them material. Is that sometimes now. Palestinians in the west bank become present for israelis through their waste so for example. The sewage that makes its way under the wall and pollutes is rarely farmlands for example across the green line or the smoke that wafts from the burning of e waste. let's say into a settlement settlements lower base. The metaphor is reactivated through the material. So it's like. Oh palestinians live in a place that is full of waste and this actually connects me back to my earlier point about who governs palestine if for your average israeli. The palestinian authority is the near sovereign government of the west bank palestinians. Then the smoke that might after the sewage that might come under the wall is the manifestation of that entity's failure or its inability to govern and of a kind of cultural backwardness. Let's say overall palestinians and that ends up justifying further interventions for really even progressive. Let's say israelis and others who are thinking only ecologically. They might say you know just for the sake of the environment that we all share. We should really intervene and control. What kinds of infrastructures palestinians build. How many of them there can be in a place because the more there are. There's a burden on the infrastructure and ecology so you can see how the metaphorical on the material kind of play together. Absolutely i think that goes back to something that you said before about how. This is an issue not just in terms of the palestinians but for the entire global south and in terms of the history of decolonization in general wishes. That so much of the history of decolonization is dependent upon the idea. That people are ready to govern themselves. I mean this is fundamentally the nature of the mandate system for instance. You know we talk about one. Hundred years ago in the middle east In the aftermath of world war one that the european colonial powers did not believe that those territories with people were capable of ruling themselves. And again you see this everywhere that you look in terms of how european colonial powers have this kind of place of judgment upon colonized peoples and part of the issue here is about to. What extent can they manage their own affairs. That's the question that the europeans are debating when you look at the experience of dealing with waste right you know. This is one of these areas in which many of these societies are judged perhaps unfairly in terms of their ability to deal with it because it provides simultaneously the global south dumping ground for the waste of western industrialized societies. And at the same time the idea of people living in filth quote unquote so to speak provide justification for continual colonial or pseudo colonial control. What's special if not unique about israel palestine is the colonizer is next door so that the extent to which or how the colonized. Let's say here manage their affairs. Impact ecologically the experiences and future possibilities of israelis. It goes far beyond a moral evaluation of palestinians relative ability to manage their affairs properly or in an orderly fashion. It's also you know the kind of rise of a sense of a global planet around connected planet that requires protection wherever we are has also kind of fed into this process of justifying. They don't also think that. Everyone who justifies intervention. Let's say into. Palestinian affairs is secretly thinking. The environment isn't the real reason really. We want to control them. And we're just going to use this cover. I think what's really more. Insidious is the way that thinking ecologically makes this unnatural thought makes control of other people basically approaches to their own. Waste a logical and morally appropriate. Thought can you explain more what you mean by that. Yeah i guess i just mean. The shared environment idea that grew out of the nineteen nineties kind of optimism during oslo negotiations. Essentially where there was this idea. That israelis and palestinians can understand that they share one environment no matter where their political borders lie so they should put politics aside essentially to take care of that environment and that has continued to enemy donor. Funding and the affective and energy is of palestinian authority bureaucrats especially also a lot of people who are in palestinian. Ngos who are trying to get the year of the international community because it seems like finally. There's an escape from politics in this place. It seems like finally we can think otherwise and help people connect beyond politics. And i guess what i'm saying. Is that this idea of a shared environment also ends up having the effect of legitimizing israeli intervention sort of the undermining of palestinian sovereignty. Even while it is truly aiming and you know in a lot of people's cases who might be using this kind of language. It is aimed at protecting an environment that seen as extra political while doing not it also ends up sitting very comfortably with continued control over palestinian life. So you're saying in a way that the discourse of protecting the environment this sounds like a very nice idea and it isn't idea to protect the environment but it is justification for continued intervention. You know under that is part of the way that that takes places that that particular formulation of what the environment is sees. The environment is separate from politics. And i guess one interesting thing about waste is that it breaks a lot of these boundaries down. So it's a pollutant to the environment so it is not the environment and it seen as human made but it's not exactly human and it's not infrastructure itself. It's sort of a third thing. My conclusion is that waste is now part of the environment. It is the environment like you can't think the environment and waste separately and that also suggests you know it's one way of talking about the fact that the environment is always a political and human need phenomenon that we like to separate out for various reasons that has lived separately discursive lee for a while in the west but that i think increasingly people are sort of taking this apart by talking about things like mutant ecology is know like if you look at joseph mascow has some great stuff about how you know. They're plants that thrive on radiation. And i think that's one way to think about what the environment can be where the boundaries are not so clear. Yeah i think this might be an opportunity for us to broaden our scope even more much to say that we've talked about the kind of environment of what you've called waste siege in the palestinian territories. What does this mean on a global scale. One of the things that i think is one of the most striking things that you say in the book is that you talk about the waste siege in palestine as a metaphor for a dying planet as a whole. So what is going on here when we think about the ways in which the experiences of the palestinians might speak for everybody in a way as we think about the future of our environment on a global scale. I wanna go into maybe seemingly opposite directions with that one is of course to say that when we go planetary with thinking about wastage my i hope is that we think about how waste burdens are unevenly distributed. Wherever you go. And that usually they are unevenly distributed according to political and territorial distributions of power. So it can help us. Understand marginalized communities in the global north and it can also help us understand the unevenness as you're pointing out between the global south and the global north. That's one but at a planetary level. I think that what really struck me was this realization. I had specifically from looking at the infrastructures that can manage in our current time. Wastes that are produced by human. Is that something always is left over. Even from the highest tech most expensive infrastructures that were not accessible to palestinians which suggests that the volume of waste is simply growing on the planet while other volumes are staying the same like water. I think that i can't get over. How interesting it is you know that you have some forms of materiality that stay the same and some that increase and in this case waste is increasing. And i think that suggests to go back to my point about the environment that we have to rethink what it is when we think about protecting the planet what it is that we're trying to protect and what is at our disposal to protect it so too often we think about waste the way that companies are certain economists. Do as a kind of extra and if you keep it in your analysis and even center it in your analysis which people in the growing sub-field of discard studies. Doing then. you see that. Waste is essentially part of what we have in our menu for fixing the problems that we see in front of us another way to put. That is that when we talk about climate change in this country especially often. Doing speaking in absolutes. Because it's such a politicized issue here where there's a need to sound the alarm and say if we don't do x. To change our way of life the world will end essentially and i think that if we imagine sort of the way that palestinians who are besieged by wastes imagine that what they have in front of them to use is the debris of history to put it one way and that is in itself by the standards of an ideal world imperfect but if we imagine that we only have this imperfect debris of history to work with to fix the problems that we will encounter have made ourselves for the future. Then that helps us maybe rethink how easy it might be to proceed and this is so weird because i'm not in the business of making future projections or i mean neither am i mean as a historian like i started the past like you know. It's very dangerous discussed the future. I mean i guess. One thing that i would say is like this is like a surprisingly optimistic perspective. Yeah totally honest. I mean because for me. When i read this in your book it was so striking because you talk about the idea of eh against to go back to discard studies radio. Waste as quote unquote matter out of place. Right versus waste as matter with no place to go and ultimately with a waste of human society is on a global skills has nowhere to go to some extent. I think part of what you're talking about here with the palestinians that is so interesting. Is that the experience of being besieged by waste. Is something that they deal with on a daily basis a very close way but it something that we also have to deal with us as a planet we may not see it right now right in front of our faces that mostly has to do with the fact that when we talk about waste management as an industry even recycling and so on and so forth is actually mostly a process of moving things further away from us so they're out of sight and the reality is ultimately the accumulation of human waste whether we're talking about physical waste cardboard boxes and plastic bottles and plastic bags or whether we're talking about human waste or talking about carbon emissions which by their nature are invisible right. You can't see the amount of carbon in the air but ultimately the we are all being besieged by wastes even if we don't wanna pay attention to it. Yeah in the case of palestinians in the west bank. There was definitely the sense among a lot of people that a better situation. Even if the current situation seems to have become the status quo politically. I mean that movement toward a steet kind of hope for liberation of some kind creates a sense that the current situation will change. What if someone were to say to us as a planet that the situation is not going to change from a material perspective in other words it's not going to improve like the waste won't all disappear one day when we get to that time. There's not a time when it will go away and so how could that transform the way we wanna live. And i guess when i scale it down to the size of a house i was thinking. What if someone were to tell you that everything you buy on amazon wherever was to accumulate in your garden and your garden is never gonna get opened up to let that out. What would you do like. How would you live differently in a way because palestinians waiting for a political solution quote unquote are in this holding pattern. Even though i just said that there is a hope for a time when things will be better. There's also a win. Which they're not waiting and so they are making something else that may be like a tiny improvement on the thing that way i was experiencing this thing yesterday on a daily basis instead of waiting and instead of being able to push things further afield to go back to my unevenness point than i am not besieged in the same way or to the same extent as the people who can't afford to live further away from the dump site in my town. One way to talk about that is to say we're also living at different temporaries where you know that sort of end times moment where all my stuff comes back to. Overwhelm me is really pushed off for me to a time in the far future whereas someone else's living with it very much in the present and it's interesting to imagine the world does through discard studies. Say as a a lot of people living at different temporary different exposures to that kind of burden harm. What you're getting here is really important. The language of temporarily he's or might even mask like the importance of what you're talking about here because it's not just a theoretical issue. It's very pertinent especially for people living in the global south with any of these kinds of ecological crises that we might talk about whether we're talking about the production of waste or climate change in general one of the things that always strikes me is the way we going to be experienced in different ways by different people around the world so to take a particular example of shifting to thinking about climate. Broadly speaking you think about what's going to happen in israel and palestine over the course of the hundred years as the world gets hotter as a sea levels rise. The gaza strip and tel-aviv are both going to be facing similar pressures from rising sea levels however much that rise might be and for sure. The israelis are going to deal with this in one way and the palestinians are not going to be able to deal with it in the same fashion because they don't have the same infrastructure they don't have the same resources and just imagining what that future world looks like people are going to experience. Climate change. people are going to experience this process of inundation with waste at different speeds and in different ways depending on their level of privilege their economic capabilities that people can flee the entire idea of climate. Migration is based in the idea that you can move right there. There's so much going on here. In terms of thinking about what this entire perspective means for thinking about the planet as a whole but also understanding how different people different groups will experience it differently and we see that in the past to the people in the past have experienced different processes at different speeds in different ways. That's really what informs our understanding of the future. Yeah i think that's true. And i think that a lot of really important work on environmental justice and inequality has pointed to just this. What really struck me in. My research was that despite this quote unquote objective unevenness. The political and cultural ramifications of that unevenness are unpredictable and contingent for example. The village called shook by outside of ramallah. That's already in the future. In some sense you know it's already dumpsite it's kind of unlivable in many ways. And the sense among the people that i talked to about who was responsible for that was so complex and not directed mainly at israel so that even though that place if you were to sort of go right across the green line or to a nearby settlement and have a coffee and then go there you would think you know i see in front of me. The perfect kind of sociological political science example of inequality. That doesn't actually translate for people who live in these circumstances into political mobilization for example that to me was part of the puzzle is like how people in shook can be blaming other people in shukba actually for their condition that makes it much harder to mobilize at a planetary scale. Even the national scale or any other scale. That could make a change. And i think it's bringing back to the question of how waste interferes in culture. It is both a reflection of culture as early anthropologists said out of place. It's how culture produces order essentially but it is also like an actor in changing culture. And i think i want to highlight that. That's an element that some people grow onto and then others kind of overlook a little bit. Which is that you know. They're all kinds of circumstances. Where waste is a problem. Not at the environmental level for palestinians. But at an ethical level or at the level of aesthetics for example. And how they want to adorn their homes and bodies and how they experience class that just like really throws a wrench in our simpler maybe environmental justice justice framing that see equality and then just kind of want to go fix it. If we of focus on the palestinian situation in particular there are a lot of people who look at the political situation over the past twenty five thirty years or longer and they see the status of the palestinians as a stateless people and they think okay at some point in the future. We will hopefully come to a position where we will have a you. Know an agreement that will lead to the formation of a state for the palestinians and this is based on a series of assumptions. That statehood is a natural physician right which is to say that the palestinians are kind of like disjointed or disconnected from the natural state of political affairs. And that at some point in the future we will resolve this issue in the palestinians will have a state which would be a good thing right and so people would say okay so whatever kind of situation that. The palestinians are dealing with is kind of unnatural as a result of the broader political situation. And this deals with the waste as well and so the hope that would be that in the future when the palestinians have a state that then they would have the infrastructure to deal with the situation that you've been describing but i think the part of what you're saying here that is so fascinating is that you're actually saying that. The palestinian experience of being besieged by waste is not abnormal. And in fact it is actually the future of our planet as a whole as opposed to something that we're gonna move away from. Yeah that's one way to put it. I think many communities on the planet are already in the future in that sense. But i also think that we see in the way that i defined it at the very beginning of our conversation is a condition that can be arrived at for a number of different reasons or as a result of a number of different processes it can for example result in side a well established state like the united states which is like a recently. Maybe the standard for what. A normal state is what any state wants to become in. The case of palestine waste siege emerged as a result of palestinians. Let's say quote unquote abnormality but that condition in fact is an example of a common global condition. Yeah i mean. I think that this question of what is normal. And what is not is really important to consider which is like you said that. Basically everybody on the planet aspires to be like america or at least until recently and this is true both in terms of the politics but also in terms of consumption. You know if you traveled to india you travel to china travel basically anywhere and everybody wants to live like an american and this is true in israel too. I know that it was a really big deal. For instance when amazon started shipping to israel and there are all sorts of cultural historical aspects to why. That's a big deal but there are practical results or practical outcomes in byproducts when everybody wants to have a car wreck or when everybody wants to get amazon you know two day shipping you know and then therefore have those waste byproducts of the cardboard boxes and the plastic bags and the carbon emissions and really what this means in terms of the planet if we look at israel and palestinians microcosm that for the most part is constrained physically right. I think part of the issue here in terms of what you're talking about the waste that is besieging the palestinians is because there's nowhere else for it to go you know we talk about the ecological regulations and policies over the past fifty years in the us ultimately it's been a process of moving that waste byproducts further away from us as opposed to actually resolving the core issue of over consumption or you know of wastefulness but with terms of israel and palestinian. There's nowhere else to put the stuff. It's not like they can ship it off to china so easily and certainly. Israel's neighbors aren't gonna take all of. This is just to say that looking at this sort of sense of people wanting to be more like americans in the natural waste byproducts and israel again is impulsiveness as a microcosm of this entire situation. I think is a really powerful and scary proposition. In a certain way to go back to the palestinian authority kind of taking all the oxygen out of the room seeking out of the room is that the supposedly to state project that the pa is in the process of pursuing and building has essentially sidelined and eradicated or driven underground all kinds of life ways and political positions. That could have made wastage less of a huge so as an example. It is very very difficult for people to get funding palestinians to get funding for very small-scale wastewater treatment plants for example that would dissenter the process of managing waste in palestine and allow for a different kind of possibly consciousness for palestinians about their on sewage. And also it would allow them to reuse it locally which israel has generally obstructed but the pa's mission to centralize the international community's attachment to that idea has essentially foreclosed other ways that sort of improve the situation which is basically me saying this desire to be normal to be the state that looks like america has been very material terms exacerbated. We siege also thinking about the fact that the communist parties in palestine have also been sidelined and their vision. For what kind of scale of organization would make sense and how that relates to waste you know. I can imagine there being quite a variation because the consumption that's associated with capitalism being. The main approach is part of what has landed palestinians where they are. How does this help us to think about the history of modernity in a very broad sense which is to say that. It's obviously very contemporary relevance especially when we talk about the climate crisis but when we think about the history of the history of capitalism colonialism. How does this approach of thinking about waste. Help us to think through. Insert the byproducts of history in the outcomes of history. Really your question has been answered by the many. Many scholars were thinking about the anthropoid. Seen right now really that when we look at that which we try not to look at essentially waste and also at that which we cannot see some thinking about all of the invisible pollutants that we are able to see through dying bodies. I'm sick bodies. For example we see that these processes industrialization capitalism and colonialism. On the one hand they are ongoing but that they always involve this kind of shadow material set of effects. I think thinking with people like end stoler can be valuable for this Thinking about what she calls. Imperial debris that essentially are political arrangements in our economic arrangements. Leave an imprint that carries into the next period which to me suggests also that if we're thinking about kind of how history works that history crews in this very material form we privilege certain things that carry-forward like archives architecture certain kinds of infrastructure. I guess a very simple point is to say waste both in its material form like let's say an old landfill is important to have in that same process i'm thinking about what carries forward but also normalized processes of waste production can also be seen as a kind of artifact that carries forward. You're seeing that. Waste is a product of the past which is also one of the reasons why history matters is because history has an outcome. And it's not just a question of how we got from point. Eight point be how he got from the presidente day but about the byproducts of those historical processes like you said we pay attention to certain kinds of outcomes of history. There are a lot of ones that we don't pay attention to things that we perhaps prefer not to look at and the question of waste like you know really centers as on thinking about not. Just what has been good about history. You know that that is let us to the present right. you're not just a progress oriented idea of the direction of human experience but about all the negative things that come out of it as well. Yes absolutely and i think to add the anthropological point. I'll say that if we can do two things at the same time which is track. The material remains of history and track how humans perceive those remains we. Also we learned multiple things so the for me. The fact that the palestinian authority bureaucrats. I talked to in two thousand nine. Were describing to me. The process of building infrastructures that started in the mid nineteen ninety s as basically the beginning like years. Zero essentially for order in the palestinian landscape was super interesting. And i could only realize how interesting by having done the kind of material history. Myself of what infrastructures actually were there. Before and the way that the palestinian authority was invested in calling this year zero. You know so. I think like i was able to also get into the for lack of better word. Kuzma of a state building process and apparatus by a sense of which material remains were apprehensible. And in what way as they carried forward into this sort of modernist project the question of infrastructure one of the things that really struck me reading your book and thinking about the idea of being besieged by your environment alongside this question of essentially a lack of infrastructure and the lack of state intervention in the sense. That like this is not the capability to deal with the waste. It's being accumulated on this being thrust upon them. It really struck me. I mean obviously wrote this book before the outbreak of covid. But i think that what is so interesting. There is to think about this entire experience that we've been going through over the past year or so of like i said being besieged by the environment. And you know certainly under the last administration literally not having the infrastructure in place to deal with it. I think it's not just about waste you're talking about of what does it mean for there to be a lack of leadership or whether that is internal driven or external factors in terms of dealing with a crisis. I think the analogy is right. And i think that when way i would nuance slightly. That last point about absence of infrastructures. Is that both here. In the united states during the pandemic and in palestine what i see is a patchwork of governance and hypo governance in the sense that there is plenty of governing. Going on. there's surveillance going on. We have police entering the homes of any black family at any time on that feeling of inundated nece actually by the police that some communities have and then you have the kind of inability to get a vaccine right like that. You call the number. And there's no one answering phone. I make that point about a patchwork or about hyper evidence and hypo governance. To sort of speak back to the idea that there's just the absence of a state because that doesn't get at the experience of governance overall which isn't kind of sliced by sector the way that we often do now. We're like thinking about infrastructure in terms of the pandemic state itself has these many features that kind of dip in and out of society at any given time for palestinians the fact fat israelis there and is such a powerful state for its citizens and also can surveilled them and can tap into their cell phones at any time and can prevent them from travelling or moving meeks the kind of withdrawal and neglect that much more offense seven. It's not the same as absence for me. One of the big questions. That i think about and then i talked about with my students. In particular is the ways in which israel and palestine are important on a global scale this is relatively small territory relatively small numbers of people there and yet it dominates the headlines. And so when you look at the history of waste and the environment as it has developed their how was that you think that this particular angle. This particular lens helps us to illuminate global issues. One thing. I took away from this. Research is the way that environmental custodianship become twinned with deserving nece for sovereignty or you know which in a way is an old story you know that managing waste and ideas of cleanliness have long associated with someone's position on a civilizational ladder. Now you can see it. Through this particular set of experiences in israel palestine scale of states and like which states get to be called states essentially. What's interesting to pair with that. As the way that consumption and consumerism are equally measures of the normal cultural way and of civilization. And that sort of perfect dilemma. Because those two forces go kind of work at cross purposes essentially is it in the relationship then between the aspiration towards being a consumptive society and the reality of the waste that is being produced. Which for the most part is being pushed off to the side where it's out of you when we think about decolonisation which is such an important concept right now for so many people. We won't able. I think based on my research to only think in terms of categories like colonialism or settler colonialism or an of human rights. Let's say when thinking about how stein's future we will also have to integrate and analysis of the environment and capitalism to understand what kinds of futures might be the most. Just you know. And i think another way to put it in line with some other scholars who have recently revived discussions of capitalism in relation to palestine. I think it's very important for us. For lack of a better word or to use this word of it flexibly and intersectional understanding of what is unjust about the arrangement and palestine in order to think about the kind of future that it could have. Well i just want to thank you so much for joining me for this really really fascinating conversation. I think there are so many angles in which you can take this approach. And i think again about like when i talk about the challenges in israel in palestine. He'll are often talking about the resources of modern industrial life rate water oil arable land for food production and you really focusing on a really difference side of things right in terms of the byproducts as opposed to you know the resources necessary for production and it's such a fascinating approach that i just want to thank you for really wonderful book and having a chance to talk about it so thank you. Thanks for such wonderful questions jason. And thanks to you for listening to this conversation with sophia 'stem onto pulu robbins until next time i'm jason los dig and this is jewish history matters.
Europe in the Middle East: The Imperfect Storm
"This is. One. The Tel Aviv review. Hello and welcome to the Tel Aviv review sponsored by the Van Leer Jerusalem, Institute. I'm Dahlia Shenlin Gilaad halpern unfortunately is not with us today, but he'll be back if you like us. Please consider becoming patriots supporter by going to our homepage Teal, v one DOT FM slash. Tel Aviv review scroll to the bottom, click the big red button that says Patriots and support US counting on you. Every week a lot and I bring you interviews with authors of Research people who are producing knowledge about topics that we think are essential. This episode is sponsored by the German government. Germany will be holding the EU presidency in the second half of twenty twenty, and the Tel Aviv review is holding a special series examining Israel's relationship with the EU and European countries with their generous support. Our guest this week. Speaking to us from Berlin Dr Mural Berg is a senior fellow at the research division of Middle East and Africa at s WP. That's shifting vision shaft on politic, or otherwise known as the German Institute for International Insecurity Affairs whichever name you use. It is one of Germany's leading foreign policy tanks DR S Berg is a member of the scientific of the European University Institutes middle-east Directions Program, a member of the International Advisory Board of Mediterranean politics, and in two thousand eight. She was a researcher at the Carnegie Middle. East office in Beirut. Lebanon We'll be discussing numerous papers reports. She's written very exhaustively. on the Israeli Palestinian conflict and other stuff. We haven't discussed yet about that issue. The trump plan Palestinian politics. She also writes on regional issues including recent works on Syria Muriel welcome to the show. Hi Good to be with you nice to have you. I WANNA start off broadly. Ask You about the role that you play your work. at this moment tank is heavily geared towards. Influencing the debate over European policy you policy, you are the first in our series to look at the Middle East more broadly up until now we've focused very much on the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and we will get into Syria, but you also write about Lebanon Libya. Yemen eastern Mediterranean. I want to ask if you can characterize any overall goals of the EU in the Middle East at large or even one single goal. Yeah, I think it all boils down to one single goal on. That is stability. Stability that keeps the problems of the region away from us. And lets us profit from the good sides of the region, so yes, we do want to have relationships in terms of markets trade culture tourism, but please on, do not have migrants come from the region. Do not have terrorists come from the region. Do not have conflict spillover into Europe, and so stability is one and the the overriding goal. Go less I would put it a of Europe towards the region. That's a very compact answer. Would that do you think that goal differs at all for Germany or does Germany's vision for the region completely overlap with EU countries with EU as a whole. I would say there is a large overlap, and then some countries because of the history have different aspects that are more important to them for Germany definite NI relations with. Do play an outstanding role on others, their relations, the former. Play a large role than that. Is Case Anne Okay? That's a good start. I WanNa start again by going outside of our region of Israel. Palestine, sometimes it feels like you know we live in our own little planet, as if we're disconnected from the region, and of course we're not. Let's start with Syria because you've been writing a lot about it recently regional dynamics of the Middle East in many ways revolves heavily around a few countries, but Syria as you point out. is where the biggest powerbrokers converge in One of your articles, you notice. You noted that no less than five countries have A. Presence there, so what could go wrong? That's that's my first question, but I mean you know. What do you envision happening in this situation? The the problem is or the sad thing is that after that has gone after all that has gone wrong over the last nine to ten years, a horrible war with catastrophic consequences for the Syrians on still more can go wrong, so we're not safe. There is still contention between regional powers. International Powers of course and we have seen over recent weeks is an increase in Israeli attacks on Iranian targets in Syria all the way. To Iraq actually but also in Syria, and that helps quite a large risk of escalation. And we've already almost been to let hind two years ago, very have come to the brink of direct military escalation between us and Iran on that that danger is not from the table, so there is not only ongoing conflict within Syria, but also between those powers that are involved in Syria Amazon has A. Great Likelihood of escalation military escalation beyond Syria. This really opens up the question of what stability is I. Mean just to consider it from the Israeli government's perspective. They're often making the argument that they must carry out these strikes and I forget what number up to because there have been so many because in from their perspective Iran, getting a foothold in Syria would be a destabilizing factor in itself, so you're saying, but there's a destabilization of Israel and Iran come to the brink of war. How do you make the determination as to which kind of stability gets priority? That's a very good question in the end I. Think what we have seen so far. That is an approach that has aimed at stabilization in Syria, through military victory is not gonNA provide stability for Syria in the region. What we're seeing is an approach that tries to take into account, some regional and some international powers Interests Russia Iran Turkey in the framework of the Astana format. Maybe you can explain what the US in a format is briefly for our listeners. That that's a former that Russia actually has invented edge trying to get those powers that have most cloud on the ground into a format, trying to manage the conflict and then achieve a military solution while at the same time safeguarding the interests of these powers, and they have seen that they have contradictory interests, but that they have enough overlap to trying to push the conflict into a certain direction, and that is what has has happened over the last few years. The concept of De Escalation zones where. By little by concentrating forces on one zone at the time, the rebels in this zone have been starved embalmed into surrender, and than they have been so-called reconciliation agreements and thus step by step. The regime has taken over control of some two-thirds of the territory now so that has been a process of supporting military victory of the regime. And that is an approach that in my opinion will not lead to stabilization of the country because of the nature of the regime and its uncompromising stances towards any kind of political. Inclusion in the country. I mean in one of your articles. You also raise the question about whether we can assume that Syria is even headed towards a future as a unified state. Under the re entrenched regime, or is there still a possibility of some sort of state disintegration I? Mean maybe that sounds extreme, but this question has been on the table. And where do you see things going now as you at the regime has regained control over large parts. Does that mean it's a done deal Syria will stay together under this repressive regime or Are there other paths? Not that I think they're great ones I just WanNa ask you. Yeah. I think there is. Seemingly contradictory trends I think we'll see, but much more slowly than envisioned reconquest off the territories, the Assad regime in the northwest in it live and in the northeast where so far the Kurds mainly prevailed, that will come, but not as quickly as the regime had thought a not as quickly as Russia had thought. And at the same time we currently already witnessing is a destabilization in other areas. The country we see renewed on confrontations in the so-called reconciling areas in the southwest in. We Rec- protests basically across the country small-scale, but still still protest against the government because of the lack of service delivery and corruption and bad governance in general, and that even takes place in regime strongholds end we also see a renewal of attacks by Kurdish guerrilla groups end by remnants of the Islamic state so I. Do see this process of reconquering territory on the one hand end, destabilization and erosion of state capacities on the other hand. I mean that sounds a lot of the like the grievances that began the protest to begin with in twenty eleven around the time of the Arab spring. Are we seeing this kind of cyclical resurgence of the same original problems because the regime has not? Has Been Busy fighting a war, but not actually address the original grievances. This is absolutely what I see and I think this is where we're headed. And problem is that each cycle we go through? It's not only civil protests that come up, but also the remnants of. Jihadi terrorism that get stronger and that feed on the grievances of the people. Well? It doesn't look like a a a very hopeful cycle. But what do you think is the way forward? I mean if you were saying that. The the the military approached supporting known extreme military victory by the regime is the current reality unfolding on the ground, and you don't think it's working so well. What is the alternative? The, alternative is a fantasy, and it won't come, and that would be that we see on what the UN is trying to achieve in Geneva. That is a negotiated settlement to the conflict. Where we have a system of governance that is inclusive and participatory, where the rights of minorities are guaranteed, we have a political system in Syria. The human rights are guaranteed, and we have a process of transitional justice that would lay the foundations for reconciliation between the opposition and the regime, but also between different population groups that have been manipulated politicized and instigated by confessional and sectarian rhetoric. That would be some playing. Playing that could actually lead to long-term sustainable stabilization, but we're not gonNA. See that that is not in the cards. I think right I. Mean Yeah, and this this raise the question in my mind when I was reading your material to what extent is the UN UN approach which I think in many ways is shared by the EU, the idea of promoting reconciliation transitional justice human rights stopping human rights violations. Is this some sort of noble attempt to bring universal values to all the people of the Middle East that is. Ill fated or I mean. How do you see it? You know, is there. Any or is it simply the right thing to do? But disconnected from reality is what I'm is what I'm asking. I. Think I would put it differently I think the problem is that the Europeans have not great leverage for themselves if they had created leverage through military presence through diplomatic activity through using their eight offers invade at create leverage than they might have had more of a chance to also have an impact on the conflict, but they have decided not to have an impact on the conflict. They have decided to really withdraw from conflict dynamics, and therefore it seems that the goals they have the strategies that they have a completely detached from the reality on the ground, but I don't think I mean this is. On, if I may say so a an argument that I often here in Israel that Europeans address, oh principled, and you know they have good values, but this is exactly why I'm confronting you with this argument. I don't I. Don't think it's only a normative approach. It's an approach that Europeans and I'm among them. A deeply convinced that is the only way of achieving sustainable. Stability! It's like we're saying it's not just from our sentiment. It's in our interest. It's in our interest and. It is also a metal of real politic. I mean it's not that only military approaches are real politic. No, if you exclude people from the political system, if you trample on the rights, if you suppress the if you're torture them, you do not create stability. Okay, that's a convincing argument to me, but I want to now move because in some ways I think. Some of this discussion is going to be relevant for. Zooming in to this part of the world, the Israelis and the Palestinians and you know it does happen to the question of what Europe can do and how you're ABC's the conflict, but let's start with some of the work. You've done on Palestinian politics. It's something that I think we need to get deeper into certainly on our show in general to understand the situation, tell us about the political division between the Palestinian leadership. What is at the heart of this division in your analysis, is it? Purely power, competition, resource competition, or is it more about the ideology between Hamas and Fatah Is it a disagreement over tactics about of how to confront the Israelis and fight occupation? Analyze that division. It's all of the above I would still that at the heart of it is a power competition. It's a struggle about who benefits the most from the little that there is actually to benefit from I. Mean sometimes when I write about this shows. Is it's? Almost sarcastic to say, there is a struggle over power control in Palestine because there is so little to control, there are so little resources that the Palestinians have there is so little territory that they control actually there's no territory that they control. There is if you want so a power struggle about municipal services, but still. Those municipal services hold some value that people try to profit from, and so does the struggle about who can profit the most from these resources that there and the privileges that linked to these resources. That comes down in cloaked in different ideology in different strategy in different ideas about How a future Palestinian entity should look like on an how much of direct or indirect cooperation with Israel is feasible should not be done. This is I. think that reading an analysis by European an outsider to this conflict it sometimes you know seems like you have access, not just two different people, but two different angles that somebody who's writing either from the Israeli side, or the Palestinian side will not really provide us. I'm not I'm not sure if I would go so far as to say, it's more objective because we all have our approaches, but I I I sense that in your analysis of attack. Attack Hamas each one brings up things that I'm not sure if we would see here from you know from from the typical sources that we Israelis and Palestinians. I guess us. How do you see the dilemmas of? Let's start with Fatah, because it seems like you really paint a spiderweb full of dilemmas that sort of any way they move They seem to be trapped in your analysis. Can you explain some of those and tell us how you how you arrived your? Observations. I think the main point is that I. mean the PA stems or is is the product of Liberation Movement and. Of course, the idea of Fateh always was to liberate Palestinian from from Israeli occupation, but then if the Oslo agreements decided on on setting up a system of governance and Damore. This system of governance tries to function and provide the services that they're supposed to provide today. Palestinian citizens, the more they are. In, industry of occupation, the occupation regime, and basically there is no way out of the system, so the depends on basically everything on. Cooperation, fifty occupation regime, and that puts it into a very difficult dilemma. Because the rhetoric is one off liberation into a police state state-building ending occupation. Being free, Palestinian citizens on the reality is that the P. has to function in cooperation with Israel in every field you can imagine for. Being in a position to giving services to its people on that a confronted all the time, fifty accusations of its own people than it. Is Up construct subcontractor to the occupation. Robs it off negative. Mri in the eyes of the of the Palestinian people. I think the. Element where that becomes most. Obvious to everybody. Maybe not everybody but to two Palestinians is the field of security cooperation that is definitely also field where there is a PA is attacked most on because Palestinians don't see security cooperation as serving their own needs. They don't see it as helping improve their security, but they see it only ask helping Israel security, the settler security, maybe also the regime security the security, and that's it becomes completely a product of the occupation and own a an instrument. Of, the occupation and a Palestinians criticize it very very loudly, and that is puts the PA in a situation where if they want to. Let the out some steam if that can be sidelined out. If they want to. Denton this opposition a bit damn the pillow central council every once in awhile designs that security cooperation with Israel should be scrapped, but it's just not implemented because the PA cannot stop security cooperation. With Israel end it reminds it remains this tightrope walk for the Palestinian President and the P. that the rhetoric of Negotiation and the practice of. Operating fifty occupation forces is always. There is always visible for all the Palestinians that's one. That's a very powerful contradiction. I think that you draw and it seems there was one more internal one that I found interesting in your writing, which is the sense that the the reward system for the PA? Doing this cooperation in general coordination is is an internal hierarchical structure because you know the the senior people then have access to permits and greater freedom of movement and. and that creates a sort of deep inequality inside Palestinian society. Can you discuss that a little bit absolutely? And that is something that has been discussed the from the beginning that when the he was established and the Palestinian elites, the pill elite came back from his and other countries. They got the VIP status and they were able to move, and suddenly they could build nice villas, and they had access to monopolise of for example in the telecom sector and. The trade cement sector, and so on and no wonder it's also family of Mahmoud Abbas that is heavily involved in this kind of monopolies and people. Normal Palestinians saw these villa's bringing up in that, some people can move and they cannot. And of course that created a lot of grievances and made these people look even more like subcontractors to the occupation, not in a situation or in a position to promote. Palestinian interest focused very much promoting their own interests. and. So why don't they rebel? It sounds very similar to the language in Syria. Grievances of government. That's not responsive corrupt, not serving them. Why do we not see that kind of eruption among Palestinians? It's an interesting point I mean we saw. We've seen seeds of rebellion also in two thousand eleven. As in other Arab countries, but of course, the situation in Palestine is completely different. There is no central place that Palestinians congregate. They are all in des Cantons in the West Bank in Gaza in Jerusalem, no way to unite, there is no way to focus on the Palestinian Authority. As long as people perceive the occupation as the bigger problem, so it's it's difficult to rebel against your own people or your own leadership. If you think that actually the main problem is the occupation, and not not the leadership, and the leadership is a secondary problem, it's an instrument of the occupation and not the patient itself so. Those are two reasons I think are more, but the situation is different in other countries right well. If that sounds complicated, I think your analysis of Hamas is even more complicated because you explain a new documentary, even though Hamas. Considered to be the sworn enemy of Israel, you point out a number of areas of indirect cooperation and I think you even assert that that serves Israel in a way doesn't Israel wanted to destroy Hamas or does it? Not What are the? What is this indirect cooperation that you have observed? I don't that Israel wants to destroy him. I think Mussos the purpose for Israel, and it is exactly the situation bear Israel and Hamas don't recognize each other as legitimate governments or as having the governments. But the state still deal with each other. I mean Israel still accuses the defacto government in Gaza to do this and that, and they hold them accountable for observing certain red lines, and the other way round, and as you know currently negotiations going on more or less direct talks between Israel and about prisoner releases, so there is a defector recognition of authority between the two. And I think Hamas. It's even more startling in the sense that you have this strong on rhetoric of Resistance and Liberation on one hand, but then you have an authoritative very well that the population in Gaza does not want another war does not want to see more bombs, so they work on ceasefire arrangements with Israel. They work on preventing radical routes from launching rockets. They do patrol the board offense so as to prevent infiltration into Israel. They suppress on Salafi. Jihadi groups in in the Gaza Strip and in that sense. They render a security service to Israel. Now. They don't do this because they. They are a friend of Israel, but in their own interest. And the interest that is once again that maintaining power over the tiny strip of land is more important to them than fighting and trying to liberate that land, so they cooperate in directly with Israel. Okay now we have to touch the toxic third rail of the conflict at this moment because I think we haven't really discussed it on our show at all. Which is the trump plan? You've been thinking about the trump plan for much longer than the trump plan has actually existed. You wrote a report about it. Last April the plan was only published. This January and you had anticipated quite a bit of it What are the things that you thought that you that? Stand out for you about this plan that you believe are reflective of the American. Administration or the Israeli administration, certainly somebody's interests. What does this plan do? Whose interest does it advance? I think there is two major issues that stand out with the document. One is the the framing the wording. This is a narrative of the Israeli right. There is no place whatsoever for the Palestinian narrative for the Palestinian interests for Palestinian rights or emissions, and if anybody wants to pursue conflict resolution in any place, this is definitely not a document that could be basis for conflict resolution, only even looking at the wording of the document. And the second one is to content and content I. Think turns the idea of a two state solution upside down in everything it basically. Takes up all the elements that were discussed in earlier visions for Tuesday touch amount. And it turns them on the head that goes with regards to Palestinian sovereignty debate. That sovereignty is limited in that document means that if that were implemented, definitely, there wouldn't be any meaningful. Palestinian state rod what we would see is. Of Occupation Open ended occupation plus annexation of some thirty percent of the West Bank. than the document violates basic principles of international law, and of course, first and foremost, the principle of inadmissibility off the acquisition of territory by force, otherwise known as annexation. Right well. We have some disputes over terminology here because you know many many of the Israeli leaders, including the prime minister, and most of his ministers are talking about extending sovereignty, and they don't use the word annexation so I'm just. Putting that out there as part of the debate here in Israel but what you're talking about acquiring territory by force is annexation. Do you think there's any difference between those two terms of reference? I'm not sure if there is a legal difference between the two. It seems to me when we had this discussion last year. When a the trump administration recognized annexation of the Golan, Heights they even further than Israel had gone before right because Israel also said they hadn't next Golan Heights. They head just extended sovereignty over the Golan Heights I think the the letter of the law is extended Israeli law and jurisdiction so Israel's very cautious about that because they don't even say extent sovereignty, the the Golan Heights law from nineteen eighty says lawn jurisdiction book. Facto annexation because Israel governs there, and it used to be Syria. Absolutely and the. The signal is very clear. The signal is this is not open to negotiation. This is not open for anybody else to govern here. Leaving govern that. which in Brecca doesn't mean that in the future? Somehow you could negotiate about it right because even after annexation of the Golan Heights, the renovations with Syria over it. But I would say not really in good faith, right? Wing that a site this is about annexation. Yes, but that's that raises an interesting point. I mean the trump plan. Okay, you think it's problematic in many ways, certainly for the two state solution. Is it reversible? If any of it is implemented and you know the government is currently discussing beginning legislation on July first just coming right up. If Israel moves ahead with that in some sense. Could these processes be reversible in a future peace process? In theory s on in practice I. Don't see it because. Every step. You take to entrench. Control over territory transferring population into the territory building your infrastructure in a way that it links up to your territory in doesn't integrate into the territory. You're talking about you. Increase the cost full making for taking the back. And I would say that has been the whole approach to the settlement building issue all along since nineteen sixty seven that step by step. You have increased the cost for taking it back. You don't create facts on the ground to take them back afterwards. You create on the ground to entrench your presence. So in theory, yes, everything can be taken back later, but it's not GonNa Happen, and the costs bill be enormous for any Israeli government to fall back behind what is promised in the trump plan, and it would also be normal any American administration to fall back behind what has been trump promised into trump plan. You're saying even if there is a democratic victory in the US, they want to change the policy. That trump is laid down. It will be difficult they they will have many constraints on reversing that policy. Absolutely and I think you have heard what. The presidential candidate of the Democrats said he has made very clear that he would try to improve the relations with the Palestinians reopen consulate for the Palestinians. Restart aid support for the Palestinians, but he would not reverse the moving GMC to Jerusalem for example, and it would be much more difficult for him to reverse the decision on on annexation. Even though he says he is against annexation, but he hasn't spelled out what that means and I. Don't expect him to spell that out. Okay well, let's let's ask you. We have to start wrapping up so I'm GonNa ask you the question? We've all been waiting for which is what should the e you do about this and you're? An and I mean I'm. I'll guide you a little bit. Because you've written about this based you've outlined principles that you think could guide EU policy. Even I don't think there's a magic bullet, but maybe there's a magic bullet, and maybe you can tell us about the principles you think should guide the EU. And Yeah if you have a magic bullet. This is the time to reveal it. There is no magic. Is Of course the possibility for the Europeans to take a decision if they do want to play a role or if they don't want to play a role in this. And of course, their room for maneuver is quite small now the way to stars have. right-wing government coming into being in Israel the trump administration support of the Arab Gulf states so it's not as if the Europeans are in the center of the action, the very much at the margins of the of the action. But they can make a difference if they decide they want to do that. Because they have close relations visceral, and they have instruments the rich they could, if they wanted so influenced the cost benefit analysis off those who take decisions in Israel. They have an association agreement with Israel. That could be suspended. They have the possibility of recognizing the Palestinian state India nineteen sixty seven borders. They could even impose sanctions on the government of Israel. Records as they have done before Russia in Russia next Crimea. They could be much more consistent in their efforts at differentiating between Israel proper end occupied or next territories, and that could mean banning settlement products, in Europe which is very far from the situation we should. We should point out There are labels, but nothing even remotely like banning products at present. All what I'm what I have been saying right now the options that you can have other much far from what the EU twenty seven will be able to agree on. So, we will see maybe strong statements echoing, but we have heard from the EU representative foreign policy representative so far. But spelling out the consequences I'm not so sure if European member states can agree on that, but you ask of what they could do. More would have an influence right and what I'm trying to say is. They could decide it so if they don't want to decide on. Measures that could actually affect the thinking of the government of Israel. Make the government rethink once more. If they want to go ahead with this, not maybe I should also not say the government, but this has been very clearly limited to Benjamin Netanyahu right. The Cabinet doesn't even have to agree to that. So. It's this person. And maybe the Knesset that has to be impressed. By Action? If this doesn't take place than at least Europeans should do one thing, and that is to make sure that if Israel goes ahead and an exists areas or things that it can permanently occupy areas than it has to grant citizenship rights to the ones who live in this area. This is the only acceptable way of Europeans if Annexation goes ahead, and there is no way of maintaining a system that you have different rights and privileges in areas under your control, if that is not limited and temporary because of a military situation I want to end by by recapping the principles that you spelled out at some point that are kind of I saw them at least in your reports as underlying values that that guide this policy and I. Think you know one point you re. You said that the principles that that you should adopt for this thing for its policy. Thinking is the right to national self-determination individual rights of all people from the river to the sea and right of return in a way that respects the interests of states in which they will be resettled. Do you think that those should still be the guiding principles? I think you wrote that not too long ago. do you stand by these as? The right direction for European policy-making. Absolutely, but these are principles when you talk about a conflict settlement right this any conflict settlement would have to abide by these principles would try to implement these principles in order for. For it to be sustainable end legitimate arrangement. But we're not headed towards conflict settlement. We're headed towards situation of increased conflict and off entrenched. Entrenched situation of lack of justice, and therefore yes, these are the principles that need to be implemented if you talk about settlement and the I think what now is important to at least not shut the door to that permanently. Right so you're saying we can hope to one day. Get back to conflict to a conflict resolution process. I'll have to leave it at that, but Dr Merle aspect from the S w. p.. Think tank in Berlin. Thank you so much for being on the show with us, thank you. Thanks also to eat I show them Georgia Foscarini are sound engineer and producer, and again to the German government for sponsoring this special series on Israel's relationship with e you, and European countries now a request, many or most of you listen to us on the apple podcasts APP, and we'd like to ask you to please consider writing a review. Just go to the ratings and reviews section and write us exactly what you think you can. Can also support us by going to our website T. L V one DOT FM. Slash Tel. Aviv, review and subscribing are Patriot campaign. Check out our archive. We have over five hundred interviews, and if you like us, you can also like us on facebook. Our page is called the Tel. Aviv review podcast ideas from Israel. Follow me on twitter to join US next week for another edition of the Tel Aviv review, and until then goodbye.
Voters head to the polls in Algeria and the UK
"Voters went to the polls today in the United Kingdom and in Algeria both places have a lot on the line fine including protecting the integrity of elections in the UK. At least there's some cynicism about that overwhelmingly the perpetrators of disinformation of a UK. Miss Election can happen to people who won't be the next government also today. An International Court wraps up hearings on whether Myanmar committed genocide against the Roe Hindu people the case that with brought by the small country in Africa the Gambia. We know how it feels like to be unable to tell your story to do all in the hope that they will. We have lived through it for over two decades and we don't want to suffer the same fate and book stores in Iceland. Prepare for your book. Flawed a flood of books for Christmas. I'm Marco Werman those stories and more today on the world I'm Marco Werman. This is the world. Thanks for being with us. Lots of election news today not here in the US and not just yet. We're going to start in the United Kingdom with their national vote. The British public went to the polls today to pick between two WHO major party leaders. Who are just not all that popular? Neither the Prime Minister Boris Johnson nor his main rival Labour party leader. Jeremy Corbyn neither has sparked much enthusiasm. Suzy Azam another shadow over this campaign. Disinformation distortion and fake news from London. Here's the world's ORLA Barry. There's a sense of relief on all sides today that this Bisher December election campaign is coming to an end. And it's been ugly my phone put it in your talk to his mother says the NHS is in crisis. What's your response earlier this week? A reporter confronted Boris Johnson with a pitcher on his phone home. It showed a sick child lying in the floor of a UK hospital. The prime minister's reaction was to snatch the reporters phone and put it in his back pocket. It wasn't a a good look for Johnson after the report went viral but then a story appeared on facebook claiming that the hospital photo was a fake. It wasn't true but the falsehood still spread like digital wildfire. The Post found its way onto all sorts of massive facebook groups and pages amherst being reposted by normal people not rushing vase Marianna spring in falls Varroa news stories for the BBC. The issue here is that social media particularly platforms like facebook facilitate these hyper partisan bubbles where everybody it jumps on a story and shares with people who think exactly the same thing and as a consequence stories catch on like wildfire and unfortunately the debunk of them doesn't necessarily get the same. Traction facebook spoke was also blamed for the spread of disinformation joined the Brexit Referendum in twenty sixteen but a lot of the fake news around brags originated from sources outside of the UK. Hey places like Russia for example. It's too early to tell if there has been Russian meddling in this campaign but Jeremy Corbyn. The leader of the main opposition party found himself in his story linked to a Russian group or have here. There's something I can reveal to you. Four hundred and fifty fifty one pages of unredacted documents and information that documents carbon brandishing whereabout tokes between the UK and the US us. Over the sale of Britain's Health Service the information originally appeared on read it. The Internet site has since banned the user who posted those documents and read. It says it believes the user was linked to a Russian disinformation campaign. The most of the fake news appeared in the run-up to today's election did not come from shady overseas. Operatives overwhelmingly the perpetrators of disinformation over Yuka in this election. have been the people who want to be next government that's well Moi. From full fact talked an independent fact checking organization Moi found himself shopping. One fake news tactic used by Johnson's Conservative Party. A party official changed his twitter twitter handle to fact check. UK on the night of the first TV debase making it seem like an independent fact checking service. The account then tweeted critical comments about the opposition Labor Party and we could our we said it's misleading. We said it's inappropriate and what I was pleased to see. Even some conservative members of parliament came out and said set. Actually we shouldn't be doing that so there are limits but they were really tested in this election but many politicians seem to believe that all is fair in electoral warfare. Chris Morris is with the BBC's own fact checking Eunice reality check is not so much I think about direct lying. It's about politicians genuinely not carrying any more. Apparently whether something is true not Mara says British politicians maybe picking up some of their tactics from their counterparts in the US. I do think some politicians here have looked across the Washer and thought well the getting away with it over their particular the president the depends how you view him but the fact that he can change changes mind and almost sort of Pirouette sixpence overnight near apparently get away with politicians. Here I think are thinking and not just the prime minister but the prime minister certainly certainly is has the ability to change his mind or or deny things which are verifiably true and it doesn't seem to matter experts who'd be monitoring social media use during this election. Say there are plenty of reasons to worry will moisture's online platforms like facebook have made more of an effort to counter tre fake reports much more though needs to be done. In Britain. Election rules are outdated and failed to reflect the current digital age. Where so much? Campaigning happens but Moi we says little effort has been made by politicians to address. We've heard words we've seen no action. You can understand that. Politicians in Britain have been a bit distracted. The last few years and there hasn't been much consensus on anything in theory. Every political party is committed to updating this in practice. We'll see what happens if the next few years and just how tough a job has it been fact checking the British election campaign rolling proud to be part from the absolutely fantastic team. I think with very glad it's over. It has been a long. Few weeks is not the only one who be letting out a huge sigh of relief for the world. I'm more Barry in London. It was also election day today in Algeria but in what seems like an odd turn pro. Democracy groups are calling for a boycott for the past. Ten months of protests movement has taken hold in Algeria. It's called Iraq meaning movement back in April. The Iraq protesters achieved a major victory. They force out. Algeria's longtime military backed ruler. But the interim government Minton Algieria is still seen as part of the old regime zine lobby dean bully is an Algerian scholar in Beirut in Lebanon he's been closely following events back home Algierians today saying simply that elections at this point on the solution. The real solution is the democratic transition. INAUGURA which Gotcha is not happening so far and I think what's important right now for are durians is reforms rather than basically superficial elections actions just to renew the civilian facade of the military junta. I think that's why today we're not seeing significant often turnouts because durians basically don't trust the system they want change. The protest movement in Algeria is known as heroic who makes up this movement and how wide a swath of the population do they represent present despite our ideological differences Algerians today on are in the streets together regardless of their ethnicity regardless of their ideology regardless even of there are there in the streets have in common goal against the system from ORLA sectors of society. You have those educated with Nassar's impeach season when you have those basically who dropped out of school of high school you have those kind of a stable situation economically and you have those who are unemployed. You have those. Oh secular and you have also those conservatives you have the burgers on the how the Arabs basically what what has been happening since the Albanian independence in nineteen sixty two. Is that every single time. I want to change the system. The system divides them. They divided them along ethnic lines. They divided them along ideological lines. But today it just didn't happen happen. Algerians are still in this together so if the Iraq protesters in Algeria WanNA change the system. What they want instead? What does that look like? I think. That's that's the question that Iraq has to answer because the one thing that headache has been unable to do so far as to organize itself provided alternative so for Jerry Jones. There isn't really clear answer. There needs to be in organizational structure of the movement so that it could eventually provide widen alternative roadmap to the political system. I mean it's also interesting. That Iraq is a leaderless movement. Has that affected their momentum or strength not having an actual leader that the interim government government can talk to help the movement especially during the first few months just to put you in context. What has been happening in every time? There's a political movements socio-political movement or even come on with movements. The system has two ways to respond to it if it has leaders. Either it's cops. The leaders snakes deals with them or it simply imprison prison lease leaders so if the Iraq chose to have leadership during the first few weeks we most probably would have seen this leadership your ship in jail by now. I think we may be seeing in the upcoming months structure of the movement and Organization of the moment to basically transform arm the slogans of all out to report mechanism Zine. You're a scholar in Beirut as I said but you're also Algerian. Do you support the protesters in the Herat movement. Yeah definitely I mean personally. I feel that this movement has given me back my dignity as enlarge Julian. Now I could see that the juries are capable of action taking a change and I'm no longer ashamed of being represented by a man who doesn't speak unto doesn't move. I definitely support them and they think it's Stein. That's my generation leads the country. So Zine I'd like to know how old you are just to get a sense of where you are in your life and are you feeling any desire to go back to Algieria. I'm twenty three years old. I left. I'll just like many jurors because they felt that Tim is not going to give me anything in life and that's myself abroad so that they could serve my country when time comes on they actually go back to Audrey. I mean if the movement succeeds. I'm hopeful about us to. We'll help build my country Z.. Ledeen her bully is in Algerian scholar at the American University of Beirut. He's also a contributor to the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Thanks very much much for speaking with us today. You're welcome thank you. BOUGAINVILLEA is distinctive for its stunning Magenta flowers. Bogan Ville is something different. It's an island island chain off the northern shores of Australia and part of the country of Papua New Guinea. But maybe not for long Bougainville could soon become a country itself so it would be the newest country in the world. People on the islands swig voted for independence from Papua New Guinea also known as PNG. The vote was overwhelming. Ninety eight percent in favor given the scale of the outcome NJ government doesn't really have the capacity to interpret Another why Shane. McLeod is a policy researcher in Australia Who Specializes in? PNG Papua New Guinea he says the people of Bogan Ville had been fighting for independence for a long time. So it's a province within company but it was given even special status as part of the pace agreement in two thousand and one which ended I pretty vicious and violent conflict that had been going on on Duncanville for about ten years aside. So what does this vote. Actually mean does the world now have its latest sovereign country not yet. It's not a binding outcome and that was again part of the pace. Hace agreement the provisions. That were a great. Is that tange. As national parliament would get a funnel site. But it's not really any sense that there's a large group of people on Doug Bill who wants to remain as part of paying Jason and so I think that just means the moment is that independence has to be happening has to be a time line for Bougainville. It's not a large population physically. It's a small island. What are the resources of the people of Bougainville could tap into an are they even ready for independence? Yeah it's GonNa be one of the big challenges ages photography's the economic prostate Semaine. It can daily support what has now in terms of its special autonomous government. It's going to need. Resources is also to Mike itself viable. And it's going to be relying on International Tatas really. It has the mineral resources. The mind that really sparked the conflict back in the light ides's Eddie's Panguna is still got some substantial mineral resources a lot of people think that bugging Dell's economic future will really depend on mining. I'm things things like. Fisheries could be a big industry licensing international fisheries. But it's going to be very tricky. The population will be smaller than some of the other. The neighboring nations in Melanesia like Vanuatu Solomon Islands and it starting from a base where a lot of infrastructure and a lot of things it will need. Just don't don't exist yet. What do billions actually identify around? Like what are some of the cultural icons that could unify a future nation. PAYPAL uplift set of written a bit about Burgundy and identity is something that came about as a result of colonization and so it's really only since Europeans coming imposed colonialism. ONEAL ISM on Bougainville that that idea of villas a unit has been created buddies. Something that's quite distinct now. I'm and also some of the traditions things like matrilineal land tenure. That applause in loves Bergenfield means that people have a sense of culture that I think will drive that sense of identity as an independent intonation. Shane McLeod at the Lowy Institute. He's a specialist in Papua New Guinea. Speaking with us from Sydney Australia Shane. Thanks very much for your time. Thanks Maka you're listening to the world. I'm Marco Werman this is the world at the UN climate talks in Madrid this week. Negotiators are hammering out some bureaucratic details. They're part of the Paris climate agreement rulebook but activists especially youth protesters. So far are not impressed. I they say the talks. Do not reflect the kind of urgency. That's needed and this week. That frustration was on full display. Rachel Waldholtz reports from Madrid in the halls of this giant conference center are normally filled with the chatter of delegates and blazers speed. Walking to the next event done green finance or ocean science but on Wednesday there was a very different sound about two hundred activists with noisemakers and banners took over the space outside the conferences main hall to vent their frustration. They demanded more meaningful full action on climate change especially from the wealthy nations responsible for most carbon emissions. Welcome everyone yet to demand that that asphalt rich countries need to step up and pay up. They said Jennifer. Morgan is the head of Greenpeace International. So so I've been taking part in these cops for twenty five years and I've never seen the divide between what's happening on the inside of these. He's wall and what's happening on the outside so large outside these halls scientists have released a series of reports stressing the importance of keeping global temperatures from rising by more than one point five degrees Celsius to meet that goal emissions would have to fall by more than seven percent a year for the next decade but carbon emissions are still rising and none of the country's most responsible for that have promised new cuts activists say that's unacceptable but longtime time negotiators. Say this slow. Slog is kind of how it works. I think they're two things to think about. The first is the legitimacy of the complaint which I think his really appropriate Jonathan pershing is a former. US climate envoy and lead negotiator. He's been coming to these meetings for thirty years and he says it's true. ooh that most nations haven't put forward new commitments to cut their greenhouse gas emissions. But that's not what. This meeting is for the deadline for that isn't until next year so in some some sense the activism a little bit and this placed where it really has to go to capitals. It's gotTa go back into national policy making. It's up to individual governments to set new targets targets and then to figure out how to meet them and pershing says for all its flaws. The process happening here at the International. Climate negotiations have had major results salts. So while it's slow it's pretty substantial and while at any given moment it may not appear to move over. The years has fundamentally altered the course the global economy inside the closed meeting rooms here delegates are obsessing over single words as they race toward a Friday deadline to complete the talks. There are two two major issues still on the table this year one is carbon markets the perennial problem child of climate talks. Geel do front is with carbon market. Watch but what's important is first of all is to make sure. The market's going to destroy the virus agreement destroy the agreement advocates. Say the stakes are that high. Carbon markets essentially essentially allow governments or businesses to trade credits earned by reducing their emissions. Those credits can create an economic incentive to cut greenhouse gases but advocates advocates say lax. Rules could do the opposite. For instance say Brazil reduces deforestation in the Amazon sells carbon credits based on that to Germany. Right right now. Brazil still wants to be able to count those emissions reductions itself but do front and other advocates. Say That would be double. Counting is going to look great on paper. It's going to look like everybody's doing climate action in dragged his emissions are just going to increase another issue is how to help. Countries deal with unavoidable damage caused by climate change. Some developing countries want a new fund to help pay for things like relocating communities and they want wealthy countries to pay for it. Video binker anchor is with the Indian social action for them. We are saying that where we to blame. Did we create this. No we think that it is the global north and their remissions historically that have created this situation for us but developed countries especially the. US have blocked that proposal. Negotiators theatre say one. Potential compromise would be a panel of experts to explore other ideas from any advocates. That's just one more example that what's possible inside the negotiating rooms. It does not match what's needed outside. We are in an emergency and the people who are versed affected our communities in the global south that something activists and negotiators agree on what they don't agree on is how best to address that emergency for the world. I'm Rachel Waltz in Madrid Yola book plot. That's your book flood. If you don't speak Icelandic it is the most readable time of the year for Icelanders. The time of year when new books hit the market there there Ula Boca flood is a ritual that goes back to the Second World War when foreign imports were expensive and hard to find but paper was cheap and since then it's been a tradition in an Iceland to give and get books for Christmas Paula's Johnston Son is a bookstore manager in Reykjavik twenty-third that is the craziest day of the year. People are flooding. All the stores. Allocates month must apply for four times while so you could work like part time time half the year and then Kinda save all your hours for a October to December. Yes that's correct. Is there a lot of pressure to pick the the perfect book for someone you know asked me to win folks thoughts. We recommend books. People tried last question. What kind of a book does this person? Read the in his personal life but the thing about buying Buchen Iceland as I gave. Is it the wrong boot or the person who gets a book returning to the bookstore and I say so like December twenty six is probably also a busy day. Actually we also having holiday on the of their twenty six six. That's good that's civilized So you're also an author to Portas. Is this time of year extra special for you the hoop fourteen with a lot of it. Of course I got number one or check in Iceland only a few weeks but still where you recommending in your book for people who came into the bookstore and say you should buy my book yes of course I. I'm just curious. Why is language and literature especially so important in Iceland? Oakland where does that come from the And yet in the thousand the own Saga Viking Sagas. Yeah the old Cyrus and what what we have any long winters and so it's nice book during our time and read. Do People Pool in Iceland. Still read the Saugus from thousand plus years ago. Yes we will. The language is almost the same ninety. Five percents said we are ready conservative. What about the Tried to hang onto it. Is it like France where you have a national academy that oversees the language and make sure it doesn't get bastardized. Yes yes. The committee that goes into the new words that has been made if for example the work the computer. We don't use that. We use the word tug Tugela Tova calls from the numbers actually toyland number so when the work was made when the computers came that it made sense but the you know did stake porges Johnston son thank you very much unhappy. Ula Book afloat to you. Thank you thank you thank you. Johnston son manages the pen Ayman Send Bookstore chain in Reykjavik Iceland. He's also the author of a novel called our foreign or the inheritance. This is the world world. I'm Marco Werman president trump signs an executive order that defines antisemitism on college campuses predicts worry it'll be used to stifle free expression about Israel but what it says is when it comes to criticizing rising Israel you effectively can't distinguish between Jews. IN ISRAEL JEWS EQUAL ISRAEL ISRAEL EQUALS Jews. That's still ahead on the world it. I'm Marco Werman you're with the world we're a CO production of the BBC World Service W. G. B. Boston NPR X.. Antisemitism it might be something that most Americans agree is bad left right center and that we should do something about it but the agreement seems to end there because as soon as he started asking people what is antisemitism who is guilty of it and what to do about it and that's when you run into disagreements. This became clear after President Trump signed his latest executive order. The world's Rupa Shenoy has more. The minority Hanukkah came early at the White House yesterday. As president. Trump recounted counted what he's done for the Jewish people and said he was adding to that legacy by signing a powerful executive order. This action makes clear the title. Six of the Civil Rights Act which prohibits the federal funding of universities and other institutions that engage in discrimination applies to institutions that traffic in anti Semitic. Hey noted that Congress and the previous administration gration had tried to do something similar but those efforts stalled but this year. There's no roadblock because I'm doing it myself too much. Easier and trump made the the intent of his order clear. This is our message to universities. If you want to accept the tremendous amount of federal dollars that you get every a year you must reject anti Semitism throws the order recommends that universities define anti-semitism with this specific language as quote a certain perception of Jews. which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews including quote rhetorical? And physical. Physical manifestations of anti-semitism. Ken Stern helped craft that definition originally for the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance stearns is now director of the Center for the study of hate never intended to something to police speech on campus. Because he says there's no similar definition Asian of racism for example answer and says the Department of Education has made clear that title six already covers to students. Jewish are being targeted targeted regardless. If they're pro Israel or anti Israel simply because they're Jewish for harassment. That's something that's actionable and a concern. But the use use of this definition is part of a long standing pattern going back to two thousand ten to try to curtail political speech about as all others have come to the same conclusion about trump's executive order Laura Friedman is president of the foundation for Middle East. Peace what it says is when it comes to criticizing Israel Jews equal Israel. Israel equals Jews if you are on campus a student or a speaker and you only talk about Israel and you're criticizing Israel Israel you are by definition anti Semitic I mean under the definition offered here the Palestinian historic and lived narrative becomes. He comes antisemitism. She says the orders goal is to send a message to university administrators and organizers. We are watching you and we will make with your lives. Miserable cost you time cost. You Rep They'll be reputational costs all of that. You could lose your federal funding if you dare cross the line. So don't even go near the line. Friedman says trump's executive order is aimed at campus protests across the country that trump sees as connected to a larger worldwide movement to boycott Israel Israel called. BBS That's short for boycott divestment and sanctions ADAS president. I want to be very clear. My administration vigorously grizzly condemns the BBS campaign against Israel. This is trump earlier this week at the Israeli American Councils National Summit in Florida but sadly B D s has also made disturbing headway on American college campuses. You know that don't you here with us. Today is a delicate hob Arista graduate of New York University who courageously stood for Israel in the face of hostility and bigotry. That they Adela LACOB got on stage and told the audience she was suing. And why you because it failed to protect Jewish students from harassment. Now she tells me she feels validated by the presidential order by signing order just expanded definition of protected groups and it includes Jewish students explicitly. And I think that that tells Jewish students everywhere that what they're going going through isn't normal. It's not okay and it just clarifies that they can stand up and Co Hab pushes back against the argument that the executive order will stifle free speech. I think that protest can very much not anti-semitic. I criticize his role openly. Because I thought but there's a difference between criticizing winging Israel and Israeli policy and Israeli administration and criticizing Israel's right to exist because when you say that your anti-zionist you're saying that you're against Israel's right right take this which is destroying Israel and creating a hostile environment for Jewish students. She says for their part many campus activists for Palestinian rights. Say they're not backing down. Nick Galloway is a graduate student at the University of Maryland who's participated in demonstrations for years. They can't stop us from getting together and fighting fighting for justice and fighting for Vdi. He says trump's executive order might intimidate some Palestinian or Muslim students on campus from protesting. The Galloway adds that that it also might invite a backlash. That's going to strengthen their resolve. A student organizers unifies us but the divisions over Israel Zionism Palestinian rights and free speech aren't going away anytime soon. Trump's executive order will have to play out on college campuses and likely courtrooms across the country for the world. I'm Rupa Shenoy. Elections are the ultimate expression of a healthy democratic system right. Well if that's the case Israelis might be feeling election indigestion. Today they're parliament. The Knesset voted last night to dissolve itself. Voters will now head to the ballot box yet again in March for or another national election the third in less than twelve months but neither of the top party leaders not the prime minister. Benjamin Netanyahu nor his rival former army chief Benny Ganz was able to form a governing coalition so it is a do over election of the do over election from a few months ago on Shell. FEFFER is the author of BB Turbulent Life Hyphen Times of Benjamin Netanyahu. He joins us now from London where he's covering the UK election for the Israeli newspaper higher rates. So you've obviously got elections on the brain on Shell L. But let's focus on Israel Elect number three is coming. What's different this time? Well Well it's different. This time is that nickel neo is now formerly facing criminal charges of bribery and fraud and even though his party is still sticking by him. There is the the beginnings things of an insurrection within the ranks of Nicole. He's going to have to face in two weeks. A leadership challenge which is expected to win but the fact that the challenges even taking replaces signs of weakening support. And the fact that he's now facing indictments may also change his legal status when it comes to forming a new government assuming even has the votes to do so three months from now wants. The next election is held. Netanyahu is the longest serving Israeli prime minister at this point. What is going on within Likud? His party are they still fully behind him. Well it could as a party which was always been very loyal to its leaders Nicholas. Various evolutions evolutions is existed now for ninety seven years in that time. It's only had five lead. That's quite a job security and Likud members I like to say that it's not in our DNA to depose leaders. There isn't much appetite for forcing. That's in the island out in the party. The other is behind the scenes a lot of table to be quite happy. If Netanyahu himselves somehow reaches the conclusion that he that he won't be able to form another government and resigns but Netanyahu is as clinging onto power staying in office also because he believes it will help him when he finally has to go to Col- it's given a bargaining chip for perhaps for a plea bargain Dan. He thinks perhaps the judges will go easy on him being a prime minister so if all those reasons he is not going to he's he's not GonNa go softly into that gentle nights nights. Netanyahu of course has his legal problems on his hands. How do you see that affecting his bid to hold onto office well? The Israeli any public is is divided. Almost down the middle and I think it's similar to the way a lot of Americans from public and the Democrat sides are looking at impeachment. People who support potently out of very suspicious very skeptical about the charges against aluminum except what he's saying that he's the victim of a witch-hunt on the side. Those politically opposed into neo believes the charges On Shell I'm just curious of nobody won the election. How come Netanyahu is still prime minister? What because it's a parliamentary autumn? Entry System you need a parliament to appoint a new prime minister until that happens. The serving prime minister remains in office so failed twice ice but since none of his opponents have succeeded that he's still in office. So much political jockeying going on I mean how is the government functioning are Israeli. Seeing any problems as a result assaulted the steelers. I mean one thing that Israelis can feel good about is that the government the civil service that security establishment and every other non-elected part of Israeli executive. Seems to be quite stable. I mean even the fact that the legal system has invited the prime minister's very impressive so the government seems to have of continuity and stability but obviously there are things that you do need a functioning from elected government cabinets to take decisions on long term plans of budget and so on and that is starting having affect millions funding various programs and so on but in general these Israelis are feeling the they lack of a of a functioning government because service is still functioning quite well on Shell feffer biographer of Benjamin Netanyahu. Thank you for your time today if I welcome. The Pentagon has suspended training programs for all Saudi military students here in the United States. That's roughly nine hundred Saudis out of a total about fifty two hundred the foreign military trainees across the country. The clampdown comes in the wake of last week's shooting at a naval airbase in Pensacola Florida. A trainee from the Saudi Royal L.. Airforce killed three American sailors and wounded eight other people. Now there's an indefinite halt for Saudi military students on all flight instruction firing firing range training and other operations outside the classroom but the deadly attack is also raised questions about the purpose of these programs. These types of programs exchanges are very very important to our national security. That's Defense Secretary Mark Asper earlier. This week. He told Fox News at the Pentagon would review vetting procedures for foreigners on American military leterrier basis. But he said the US would continue the training programs and the ability to bring foreign students here to train with us to understand. American culture is very important to us building those those long term relationships that keep a safer Fahahd Naza is a spokesperson for the Embassy of Saudi Arabia. He's been following events from Washington. You know some of our critics have argued that this terrible incident should lead to broader debate about Saudi US relations. So I would argue that. The security and military cooperation between our two nations has actually saved the lives of thousands of people in the United States and the Kingdom and elsewhere. I'll give you two quick examples in one thousand nine hundred one American taken and US soldiers expelled. Saddam Hussein's invading army from Kuwait more recently. Saudi Arabia flew the second highest number of sorties and the US military coalition against the terrorist group that calls itself Islamic state or are you saying Saudi Arabia's flown more sorties than the United Kingdom in the fight against Isis. Well I won't argue about the actual numbers that we flew a lot of missions and not not only that but I would argue that. Saudi Arabia actually considers itself at the forefront of international community's effort to counter terrorist terrorist groups for many years. The shooter I involved in this incident who died. Muhammad al-Shamrani was a second lieutenant in the Royal Saudi Air Force A we. We also learned that on social media. Hit left a trail of declarations of hate for Americans because of their so called crimes against Muslims. Why did his commander sent him to the US if he had had that kind of history right so as I mentioned earlier the Kingdom is fully cooperated with the US investigation? Investigators sorry who are trying to determine the motivations of the assailant. I do not want to speak about the assailant. Or the details of the investigations. At this point we simply don't have all the answers going forward. The kingdom will take all necessary measures to reduce the likelihood of something like this happening again in the future fair enough but what are the criteria for the military training program. What is the selection process? It is it is a obviously. It's a strict selection process. And the fact that you know you have to take my word for it. The Pentagon issued a statement two days ago saying that twenty thousand. Saudis Saudis have undergone this kind of military training over decades with no incident. Will Saudi Arabia be investigating this incident independently. We are certainly looking into it back home the Saudi pilots who trained in the US We'll fly missions in the war in Yemen. It's a war that many members of the US Congress strongly finally oppose as you know. So how would you argue to Congress which will certainly be looking at for the continuation of this training program and the role of these pilots play in Yemen. The the warned Yemen was not a war of choice. It was a war of necessity for us. We are doing all we can to support internationally recognized legitimate government of Yemen. I'm an to regain control of country. We are supportive of peaceful and political resolution. But this war began when the iranian-backed Rainier back truth you rebels took up arms against the internationally recognized government of Yemen and will end when they put those weapons down and go back to the negotiating table will will. These pilots play a role in Yemen. I mean the pilots that undergo training will obviously take part in any mission that Saudi Arabia feels is necessary to ensure our national security interests. Final question As this tragedy unfolded. Some officials quickly pushed the point of Saudi Arabia. So you need to give the victims. Money and president trump downplayed any need for accountability on behalf of Saudi Arabia. What is Saudi accountability in this case? Well as I sat at the outset. We extended our condolences to their families and the victims. We extended condolences to President Trump and American the leaders in Congress. We have condemned this senseless act of violence in the strongest terms possible. We are cooperating fully with the US investigators to try. Try to get to the motivations of the assailant we will take whatever. Measures are necessary to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again in the future. Kahad Nassir is a spokesperson for the Embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington protesters in The Hague. Today where three days of hearings on allegations of row hinge genocide came to a close me and Mars army is accused of persecuting. The Muslim Ozlem minority. The International Court of Justice now has to decide whether to step in to prevent further crimes against the Roe. Hunga there's another country that plays a key role in this trial l.. The Gambia the small West African country took the lead ensuing mar over its treatment of the Rhondda. The Gambia's Justice Minister Boubacar. Tomba do join when me from The Hague today to explain why he thinks and Maher's actions constitute genocide. I mean to start with the United Nations independent fact-finding missions report what clearly indicates that the genocidal intent in the activities of demand authorities against your hinder Decem. Same conclusion was reached by the special to re United Nations. To me and Ma. I again the special adviser under provincial of genocide to the secretary you know the the United Nations also similar conclusion. Now living all of those conclusive reports site. I have visited the refugee tweet. Come at Cox's Bazar Myself on interacted with many of the refugees. Who recounted their stories to me now? I have had previous experience into convince alive in victims of genocide in particularly in nineteen ninety four Rwandan genocide. I have spent almost almost a decade and a half as a prosecutor International Taibbi for wonder and when I heard the stories been recounted by witnesses I know Tuesday Tuesday where striking similarities not only in the fact that He's a process of historical dehumanization. That has accord in and me and my against your hanger. But also the fact that Myanmar authorities had engaged in a systematic and Organiz Operations Swedish talented winger targeted women. Terrible Honda's sexual. Violence crimes have been documented targeted children. in in some instances been burnt a life in their homes or places of worship Men Been Arrested on armed defenseless men. Being arrested wasted rounded up and executed. I mean these are all indications that demand maturities want indeed to destroy doing doing ethnic group in Myanmar. And these are the reasons why we believe that. There is compelling evidence to conclude a genocide hot taking place and is ongoing in Cox's Bazar. Of course is that very large refugee camp Bangaladeshi that a lot of Hindus have fled to what what took you to Cox's Bazar in the first place. What piqued your interest in the whole situation? A Memoir I was in New York on another official mission for the government of Gambia with the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Detained Buck in mid eighteen. Anada last minute. The foreign affairs minister had to cancel His attendance and I D V Council of Foreign Ministers Meeting in Bangladesh. Dhaka and so he requested that I attend on his behalf. I it was when we were in Bangladesh. The Bangladesh Foreign Ministry organized and so we all went to Cox's Bazar and that is how I managed to find myself that that I have to say that nothing had prepared me for what I was going to be on here Do you comes. Says he said you saw parallels between the accounts that you heard from Asia in Cox's Bazar What they experience in Myanmar and the tragedy of nineteen ninety? Four in Rwanda. How would you compare the international community's community's response to me and my versus Rwanda well? I saw striking similarities in many different ways. But what is most most disheartening is that the international community failed to under in nineteen ninety four when we did not intervene to stop the genocide of almost chameleon people and then twenty five years after the tragedy. Here we are again not doing anything to stop another ongoing genocide underside in Myanmar. I think the treatment of the winger in Myanmar illustrates the failure of the international community due intervene. And Stop the genocide. So back in your country Mr Tumba do the Gambia. There's also been a reckoning pass abuses. There is a truth and reconciliation in reparations nations commission in the gamma that's investigating human rights abuses. That happened under the twenty year rule of President yet Jami does it undermine the Gambia's credibility ability and international human rights. Or does it prepare you to deal with it well. Our experiences in the Gambia is what has actually informed the position of the government of the Gambia to speak out against the oppression of autos wherever it of course on the wall. We believe that that had spoken out against the abuses the terrible crimes and human rights violations that were occurring into Gambia. You in the twenty two year period. The former president Jimmy. We have would not have been under his regime for twenty two years the fact that no one no one helped us. no-one put pressure on President Jaime to stop his atrocities. That has led us to go through a very difficult to decade period Hewitt. We don't want others to feel our pain or are fit. We know how it feels like to be unable to tell your story to the wall to be unable able to share your pin with others in the hope that they will help. We know what it feels like to be helpless. We have lived through it for over two decades and we don't want artists to suffer the same fit. What do you think it tells us that? A small country like the Gambia can have an important voice and can take the lead in addressing serious human rights violations. Well why not Gambia. International Law is not the exclusive preserve of the rich and powerful countries international law. pleats is also in states. Equally and the Gambia as a responsible member of the international community has its own obligations under the Genocide Convention unbased unbased stepping up and taking on me and my in this case the Gambia is demonstrating quite clearly that you have to have military power or economic power to stand for justice to Stan for what is right. We're doing this in of humanity. We are doing this because we want to recognize as human beans for their rights to recognize India on country of Myanmar Boubacar. Tomba do as Gambia's Minister of Justice and their attorney general. He's been speaking with us from The Hague Egg. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you thank you my pleasure me and Mars leader. UNSUNG SUCCI has had a controversial role in the story of the row hanger are reporting on how her international reputation turned upside down. Is that the world dot. Org along with all of our coverage of the community from the Nanna. Bill Harra a studio at W. G. B. H.. Here in Boston. I'm Marco Werman will be back with you tomorrow. The world is a CO production of W. H. Boston the BBC World Service. And Pierre Ex yeah.
Friday 6 November
"You're listening to the globalist first broadcast on the sixth of november. Two thousand and twenty on monocle twenty four the globalist in association with ubs live from. London this globalist. I'm emma nelson. Everyone welcome to today's program coming up if you count the illegal votes easily win. If you count the illegal votes they can try to steal the election from us. If you count the votes that came in late we're looking at denver. Strongly in america. Vote is sacred. It's how people of this nation expressed their will and it is the will of the voters no one not anything else chooses. The president of the united states of america so each ballot must be counted. The sitting president says the election has been stolen from his rival. Says was simply watching democracy in action also coming up. Violent clashes is troops assent sent to the north of ethiopia by prime minister. Who only last year won the nobel peace prize plus a recap of the last seven days here on monocle twenty four so we learned that the american electorate probably work with us here has declined mature reflection to offer a second season to the world's worst reality show unless we learned that two thousand and twenty going to add briefly flaunting the illusion of the restoration of some kind of semi sanity to its long list of cruelties. That's we find out why kosovo's president has resigned. We look at the newspapers the business headlines get news from the world of film as many of the world. Cinema's go dark once more. That's all coming up on. The globalist live from london with emma nelson. Basically look at. What else is happening in the news. A french president emmanuel macron has cooled for rethink of free movement of people one of the pillars of the european union parts of denmark to go into lockdown after mutation in the corona virus has been found in mink and that it can spread to humans and canada's prime minister has expressed his country's solidarity with france following the recent terror attacks stay tuned to monocle twenty four throughout the day for more on these stories but first we end this week perhaps where many of us suspected that joe biden would probably be on his way to reaching the necessary. Two hundred seventy electoral college votes needed to claim the us presidency. He's currently on two hundred and fifty three with arizona. Wisconsin and michigan all likely to go his way and pennsylvania a likelihood to donald trump has said he will fight every step of the way launching legal challenges wherever he thinks he might not be doing so well in claiming fraud with no evidence to back it up what we learned this week. Is that the us more deeply divided than we thought than that. Donald trump enjoyed greater popularity than many gave him credit for said three days after the poll. Where are we now. Let's hear from monaco's. Us election correspondent. Thomas lewis the needles in the four key states were watching now have continued to move throughout the day on thursday in arizona in nevada in pennsylvania and in georgia two in arizona later on thursday we had a further results coming through and they continued to chip away at wieden lead for president donald trump and interestingly a lot of those gains for donald trump have come from mail in ballots in arizona. It seems Which bucks the trend that. We're seeing still That's a big a significant proportion of mail in ballots The have been cast are going to the democrats and joe biden. We are expecting a further update in nevada at eleven am eastern time. We're expecting an update from georgia to on friday and in pennsylvania donald trump remains in the lead late on thursday evening. That but there are suggestions this feeling that where those votes neither still outstanding coming from a likely to go to joe biden. The secretary state of pennsylvania gave several addresses on thursday suggesting that they might have a result on thursday evening but would more likely have results by the end of the day or at least late in friday. If joe biden does secure pennsylvania then he has won the presidency. It has twenty electoral college votes and that would be enough to take him to the white house. Joe biden gave another address on thursday afternoon. It was very brief and Quite significantly he urged people to stay. Calm wild the process was playing out. That was in stark contrast to the speech. Donald trump gave at around six thirty pm on thursday at primetime just as the evening news shows going to the air in which he reiterated his claims that don't have much basis in fact if any at all that the democrats are trying to steal the election from him. Donald trump was was facing pressure. Given that he's been largely out of sight since the early hours of wednesday morning when he gave his address from the east room at the white house that'd been some reporting that his team had wanted donald trump to player for the low profile while the legal action that the trump campaign is taking places like michigan and in pennsylvania. To while those things played out there was then a concern. However that given the joe biden was giving these daily brief statements to the nation. The biden was sort of controlling the narrative and allowed to steal a sort of atmosphere of the presidency away from donald trump while these votes are ongoing the reaction to donald trump's address has been swift and pretty pretty deep witness condemnation letter was published on thursday by nineteen former attorneys who all worked into republican governments Stating that his claims that the voters being rigged there were irregularities taking place at counting stations that those were premature and irresponsible We are expecting further updates from the key. Four key states. That are still counting votes on friday and there is maybe a growing sense now that this race is drawing to its conclusion. Whichever way that ends up being thomas lewis. I will listening to at christchurch. Macromolecules news editor chris. Hello emma it's good to be back on. I can't quite believe we're still in this position after doing twenty four hour long coverage of the election on election night he singlehandedly shouldering the responsibility for making sense of the whole effort to for us We are now what Joe biden is currently on two five three arizona wisconsin and michigan lightly his way. Pennsylvania is a likelihood to the financial times is currently predicting. That joe biden is Could be on his way to getting two hundred sixty four of the two hundred and seventy Electoral college votes that he needs. But can you just clarify. I where exactly we are now. So basically as thomas talked about there we're really looking at four states that are that are still open georgia nevada arizona and pennsylvania. It should be said i. Staw- started the end. Pennsylvania is really all that joe biden needs And that really is the key to be watching. It's also the state that is most likely to T to get far enough ahead that we might have result on. Friday there are currently donald. Trump is still ahead in that state. But he's ahead by less than twenty five thousand votes and there are some one hundred and seventy five thousand absentee ballots to count. Why does that matter because all of these absentee ballots have typically gone to joe biden. This is this is simply because As you've heard in the clips from from donald trump donald trump said that mayland ballots were fraudulent that was incorrect but that was his claim as a result. Robert republicans did not Us main invalid. They voted on the day. So that just gives you one picture of how likely it is. That pennsylvania will string road will swing relatively strongly to joe biden in the other states. It is much much closer. Georgia is unlikely to be called fewer than eight. One thousand eight hundred votes are in it. Trump is ahead. So you're only likely to get that certified in a week or so or in a couple of weeks for one thing. Absentee ballots that were rejected can be corrected up until five. Pm on friday. So that's something to hold it up. Nevada they're going to give an update on friday that one might come through arizona. Also extremely close biden's lead in the state fell to about forty six thousand votes on thursday with more than two hundred twenty thousand to go. These could also tip still to donald trump. That could be a state that he picks up so really. All eyes are going to be on pennsylvania on friday. That could be the one that tips the balance. These other states where there are Smaller margins are giving donald trump reason to start saying that the election has been stolen from him. I mean this is an absolute most historic in communication. He has come out and cried fraud from day. One which sets a narrative which is very hard for joe biden. Despite the fact that he's trying to behave as presidential as he possibly can try on pick it is a tough narrative to fight and donald trump should also be said has had helped which is part of the danger here so the republican reaction particularly his sons donald trump. Junior and eric trump. They've been they've been out there and they've been quite aggressive Trying to sort of bring his entire party behind him. They've called republicans week for not speaking out they've urged other republicans to speak out in quote unquote defense of the process. And you've really seen a relative silence. Thomas thomas talked in the in the there about A letter from attorneys but in terms of the politicians. There's been much more quiet you've had some of the usual suspects mitt romney. Us senator who's always quite critical of donald trump. He's come out to say you know. Let the counting continue in criticize. Trump governor has come out but senators mitch mcconnell the speaker the senate The majority leader of the senate. He has been quiet and others. Lindsey graham tech crews key members have actually come out to back. Donald trump saying there are problems here. So this really a narrative that is likely to continue and whatever happens in pennsylvania. Even if it's quite clear that joe biden has won. This narrative is a very dangerous way to start any kind of presidency. of of course it is and There is always a suggestion and that was made quite extensively yesterday that even if donald trump doesn't retain the white house this time around he would be an absolute dead set for having another going for years. Yes there has been some comment along those lines. i remember even ahead of the elections speaking to a republican opponent of trump's but charlie sykes a commentator who said people forget that that he could run again in four years and that that is a likelihood and you could argue. It's not that he's necessarily setting the groundwork for that now but clearly many republicans many of his base at least are going to feel like this election has been stolen and they're going to be seething over that for a number of years to come. I should add. that's also why for example. Donald trump junior has been speaking the way he has he also has ambitions arguably in a few years so he wants to keep this legacy going and guess it'll be interesting to see how they how they continue from the sidelines. But before we get to that. I think key is just this question of how donald trump if this does go to joe biden as we expect when how he will concede what republicans do in order to smooth this over and whether other managed to sort of you know smooth out his his transition out of the white house but it's going to be a very dangerous Couple of months. There's no doubt either that his supporters are still going out absolutely dedicated to Donald trump and yet. What's quite interesting. Is that the protests that we're seeing that protesters calling for exactly the opposite of what it depends on where you are demanding on what you want. If you if you're in if you're in arizona you want all votes counted. The trump supporters in michigan yesterday wanted the voting. The counting stopped It obviously sets out quite a difficult conflicting message. But it does say that when you have This idea of domestic disinformation which is what people are saying is what trump is pushing out. At the moment it opened up a whole new world of dangerous when it comes to democracy and freedom of speech voted trust. It does absolutely and to your point that speaks both to the protests but also to trump's rather confusing legal strategy and in that sense. I think it's fair to say that all of this is much more about sewing. Uncertainty sowing discord than it is about any realistic prospect of changing this election. As you've said you've had this difference within the protesters in arizona where donald trump is behind. They have been calling to count the vote in michigan in pennsylvania where donald trump is ahead and. Joe biden is catching up. They have been calling to stop. The count and lawsuits have been targeted in a very similar way. They've been targeted at the states. Where you know. Pennsylvania particularly is the one that lawsuits are targeting. Trying to basically remove any mail in ballots if they can. There's this question about whether certain mail in ballots. That come came after a november second that arrived after the election for three days whether those will be counter not for example so if this is within margins that are close then some of those legal challenges can make a difference but it feels unlikely given there will be a large margin in a place like pennsylvania so in that sense. It's just hard to see any of these legal challenges making an impact. The protests making an impact much of this small ball in terms of the results but yes. It really does so this idea in many of trump's supporters' minds that this election has been taken away from them and that is quite a c. To have in there it should be added just to clarify on a positive note this The protests have been tense but they have been mostly peaceful. There was one report of a family arrested on their way to philadelphia in a hummer suv. Potentially thinking of attacking the convention center in philadelphia where the voting taking place. That's quite a dangerous signal but other than that. It should be said most of this. It's been tense. Many hundreds of protesters outside of voting stations. Or where these loading centers where the ballots are being counted demands to be let in to count to monitor even more closely the process but it has been a relatively peaceful events so far. We can only hope that that continues christian mike as ever thank you for joining us on the global steel with medical twenty four so while the us. Splits and splinters. And i heard the phrase make america wait again. what does he you making. All this lead stalkers monaco's europe editor at large and he joins us on the line from milan. Good morning good morning. I think we've pretty much in the situation that the final results on we don't know for sure that trump will be a one term president but i think we can be pretty comfortable the the the longest been backing a biden win. Hasn't it well. Yeah i mean. Obviously it's hard to make sweeping assessments about a twenty-seven member block. But i think you're right and although european leaders as you as you would expect For now not really commenting. It's fair to say that there hasn't exactly been a lot of love lost between The us and that lock we saw at the beginning Some european leaders were really trying to coot. donald trump. just back at emmanuel macron him voice to him to dinner the eiffel tower infamous tooth of two thousand and seventeen steel day And which donald trump of course towed brigitte macro that. She was in such good shape But that was you know in a way. I sort of bromance But it quickly faded and soured and they've been so many points of contention between the european union and the us. And and really between. I guess the two powerhouses within the european union france and germany in particular again. Another sort of key moment was In two thousand eighteen at the g seven in canada whenever sat picture of merckel leaning on the table glaring at donald trump will dope. Perhaps a bit too much was made of that at the time but just to name a few things whether happening points of contention oversea trade and tariffs the iran nuclear deal the climate the You know the us out pulled out of the paris climate agreement just yesterday the fact that twelve thousand us troops are being Withdrawn from germany Trump's very strong criticism of the world health organization oversee with the return To want some people see as sort of normality with with biden. If he were to win the us presidency. You would expect that to be much more. Investment in that transatlantic accord and so european leaders are hoping that would happen because they want to see a normalization of relationships between the two sides. Emma long way down the road though now since donald trump came into power four years ago when the european us relationship was so close and trump telling europe the dean of the connections are not quite as good deter seeing the photo in terms of trade calling their leaders week. There is that sense within europe. Isn't there that the dependence on the united states is no longer as strong as it was indeed. Then you you know you have people like Matt crawl set out a very strong Idea for how he wants you to be and there is a case that in a way another trump presidency might allow him to do that. Push through with this idea for a strong europe. Let's be honest. i don't think macro is really hoping that they'll be another term to the us presidency. But there's still idea of sovereign union. Europe is idea of a sort of covid convergence around key issues such as defense spending such as migration such as budgets You know this sort of g is tragic fools for the eu that macro hopeful And sort of the direction which he hopes to e Will move in has less reliance on the us having said all of that. Look the us. European is still vital to geopolitics and no one will want to see that tear apart and if biden does become the next president of the us they will definitely be hoping that they're all better relationships going forward having said all of that as well. It has to be noted that they're all bones of contention between the european union and the us no matter who might become president. I think by did would like to see you. Take a stronger line on china. I think also nato will still be an issue for discussion. Even obama wanted to see european nations providing more funding than they. Currently do that. That's been a regular refrain of trump. So expect joe biden. He's president to also perhaps push for that as well to see more contributions for from the european union as well. So there's still plenty to discuss emma Whoever will be next. President finally add just looking at the way that the european union deals with its own democratic deficits and issues of of noisy countries pushed back against the european union's principles as the world is watching democracies metal being tested to the real limit at the moment in the united states. The european union is looking closer to home as well in terms of the rogue eu governments. That have been pushing against the rule of law. The independence of judges new sink of poland or hungary. What action will they now be. Current finally taking because as much criticism that they haven't actually solve the problems in their own backyard which annoucing happen in the united states. Indeed in and it has to be noted on that front as well. Those two sort of naughty boys of europe other ones that perhaps don't agree with the macro doctrine regarding the us to fight the inner. The polish president was invited to the white house back in june viktor. Orban of hungary was the only european leader to induce on trump in two thousand sixteen so there is a still a strong support base in those two countries for donald trump. They'd be more inclined for him to win the election. But talking about this too so cool not boys of your the eu has finally sort of push forward with deo to sort of a deal with some of those issues like you mentioned over the justice system which has led to e you investigations in two thousand to two thousand seventeen in two thousand and eighteen respectively those two countries basically. There's been a provisional dale this week allowing for qualified majority rule for member states to impose sanctions on member states not upholding the rule of law and democracy. What this basically means for you had to have a universal agreement fan and thing like that which meant that poland and hungary where sensually supporting each other using veto power to stop any of this happening a qualified majority would end that now qualified majority would be fifteen of the twenty seven countries voting. And what this could mean. That countries like poland or hungary could see a blocking budget funds to them or recovery fund money going to them if that qualified majority is met it still needs to be officially endorsed but this would be a big big day for the un sort of raining in those two rogue nations. As you said. emma ed stoke. Thank you as still to come on. Today's program recap of the week's events. Courtesy of andrew mueller and an update on the situation in ethiopia with the globalist es as a one nine hundred investment analysts over one hundred different countries nine hundred of the sharpest moins freshest thinkers in the world of finance dive. Find out how we can help you. Contact us at. Ubs dot com eight hundred five zero seven twenty five here in london. You at the globalist live on monocle. Twenty four there have been scenes of heavy fighting in the northern ethiopian region of t. grind after the country's prime minister sent troops that on a military offensive. Well let's now from dr. Laura hammond arita in development studies at. So as the school of oriental and african studies university of london. Welcome laura hi welcome. Good morning so bring us up to date with this situation in tigray please well. It's very hard to know. Exactly what's going on these days Because government has instituted effective lockout Cutting all communications both physical and telecommunications from the region but what seems to have happened has been the the federal government has ordered the northern command which is based in mccully the capital of guy to Carry out attacks on the regional security forces and day claim that this is in response to those regional forces having attacked them But it's a it's a whether regardless of who acted i. It's been a situation. That's been escalating over the past. Several weeks tell us a little bit about. What does that precipitated. The need for the prime minister secen troops. Well i'm not sure there is a need for the prime minister send troops. But the that what's facilitated. The prime minister actually doing that has been a gradual deterioration in relations between the federal government and the northern state of to cry over since the since the Installation of the current prime minister ahmed in twenty eighteen Abbey was installed partly in response to a national concerns that the ruling party the ethiopian people's revolutionary democratic front had too much power vested from the tigrayan side and so abby being an ethnic oromo was seen as a play towards national unity In the process of doing that when when he took over Been gradually further eroding the two grand sorta claim on support and it's resulted in a huge rift between the central committee ruling party in the capital at saba and the regional t to grant people's immigration front Forces in the north and. This is coming from a man who only last year when the nobel peace prize. How was this happened. Indeed many people are asking. It's you know. I was given the the nobel peace prize partly at the time. The nobel committee said we're giving this award in the hopes that peace will be maintained and expanded with any theo piano. It wasn't a a reward for having achieved peace. It was a sort of aspirational award. And that gamble seems to not be paying off at least with respect to north of the country. Tell us a little bit about the knock-on effects of having violence in tigray given the fact that has such a huge influence on the rest of the region. Indeed the north of the country is It's it has. It's interesting in the sense that unlike eritrea which had a claim towards aspiring towards independence the two grand state sees itself very much as the heart of what it means to have any. Theo penn state. They are the center of the ancient acts of might empire which dates from the sixth century. And they are the site of both this beginning of christianity and islam in ethiopia. They really see themselves as the core of what it what it means to be. Theo paean Others will argue with that. But that's part of their national kind of identity and so imagining them to be cessessionist from ethiopia would take would be a bit of a stretch. I don't think that they're at that point. But this this rift between the central government and the regional government is really really dangerous and You know it's it's it also is wrapped up in the relationship between ethiopia and eritrea which has been gradually trying to mend fences and get over the border. War that's been effectively going on sort of silently since nineteen ninety eight and so it's it it brings in all sorts of regional dynamics immediately but also the destabilization of ethiopia within a region. Where where it has for the most part been what some considered to be kind of island of of Some stability is really worrying. What where could we see an overspill. How if we do see this so-called island of stability de-stabilize. Well in the first instance. I think you might see air-traffic getting involved aside safa work. The president of eritrea has built very strong and friendly relationship with ahmed and Because you know they're right up against the border with with tigger i. They could easily get brought. Be drawn into this Debate there's also a matter of concern for several thousand refugees eritrean refugees who are currently seeking shelter in tigray And and we really worried that they may be forced back into our trail to an uncertain fate in the immediate term. Then beyond that then you know. They're also this also possibilities that spillover from fighting could affect sudan and guti both of which have borders with both eritrea and ethiopia and with by region itself. So it it but it also has an A possibility of spilling over to other parts of the country. So last week there was a killing of more than fifty civilians in school yard. in western ethiopia and some think while the government has accused the dplf of somehow being involved in not. I don't know that there's much evidence that they were. There are others who say just the fact that they had taken Security forces away from that community to move them up to the northern border with two guy. shows that one cat manage multiple ethnic tensions throughout the country. All at the same time. Laura hammond thank you very much. Indeed for joining us on monocle. Twenty four in the moment we recap the week's events with andrew mula and we find out why kosovo's president has resigned and being arrested. But i with the time. Seven thirty one here in london a quick summary of some of the day's other news headlines the french president called for rethink of free movement of people within the eu one of the pillars of the european union. It follows a murderer three people in these last month. They were killed by tunisian migrants. He crossed into france from in october. President emmanuel macron says. The schengen area needs reform. Meanwhile canada's prime minister has expressed his country's solidarity with france following the recent terror attacks just trudeau spoke with his french counterpart emmanuel macron following comments mccoy eight about free expression. French president's defense at the publication of cartoons depicting the prophet muhammad have led to condemnation by several muslim majority countries and parts of denmark to go into lockdown after mutation in the corona virus. This being found in mink and that it can spread to humans. A co of all of the country's seventeen million mink has already been ordered. The government says that the effectiveness of any future vaccine to be affected by the mutation. Those are the headlines on the globalist hundred mood will be bringing. Guess what we learned in a few minutes time to be having you look at the newspapers to but i. The president of kosovo has resigned and been arrested in order to face. An indictment of war crimes from the kosovo tribunal in the hague. Has she fat. She said he would cooperate closely with justice. He said he believed in truth. Reconciliation and the future of his country and society. Well the indictment dates back to the nineteen nineties conflict with serbia. When he was a political chief of kosovo's rebel army to tell us more bologna as monaco's balkans correspondent good morning guy. Well until yesterday guy. At half the hashem sat she was the president of kosovo but now he's waking up. We're assuming in a cell in the hague. Indeed he is. He's been in detention center of the kosovo specialist chambers and to bring people up to speed. Who may not have been following. This the kosovo specialist chambers is a court of kosovo which is situated in the hake and the reason for it being in the hague is to allow for impartiality anne trials which take place there and to ensure that witnesses of properly protected and the reason for all of this is that the kosovo specialist chambers was set up specifically to investigate allegations of crimes committed by the kosovo liberation army in the late. One thousand nine hundred s and as you might have gathered from the arrest of hashem thought in the indictment that he's facing many of those former senior leaders of the kosovo liberation army ended up in various senior positions in kosovo's government. What sashaying thought she accused of so in the broader sense he's been charged with crimes against humanity and war crimes. And when you drill down into the indictment when unfiled. Skim through the indictment at sizable as you can imagine but the the specifics include illegal detention torture and murder and all of these allegations. As as you've said cover a period in the late. Nineteen ninety s specifically in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine when the kosovo liberation army was fighting a guerrilla conflict are against what was still there known as as yugoslav forces we often. Think of them as a serbia. But that back then. Officially it was still yugoslavia until twenty three and the indictment says that that she was part of a joint criminal enterprise to seize control of kosovo and this joint criminal enterprise allegedly carried out a systematic attack against the civilian population and this is specifically against people who viewed by the kfi as opponents and that would involve ethnic serbs roma and any ethnic albanians. Who weren't in favor of the kayla politically opposed to the kalay. He's not the only wanted been indicted. This week is he known did not. I mean we've seen this cosco specialist chambers moving apparently not even think glacial pace would be putting it Be a complimentary because we ve really heard nothing from. It was officially established in two thousand fifteen and then for the next four and a half years. We heard virtually nothing from the court now in the past month or so. There's been this flurry of activity unjust in the past two days. The been a three four arrests including hashem patchy so three other former senior leaders of the kosovo liberation army who have since become high-ranking politicians have gone to the hague. They're facing the same charges as hashes hashem touchy Another former president of kosovo is among them. Yaacob krasne itchy. We've also got the leader of one of the largest political parties and an mp for the current leading opposition party. And so that's a in all now five including somebody who is charged back in september. Who now facing these charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity if you are in kosovo new suddenly senior president and other figures not just stepped down but be arrested within the space of twenty four hours that must be clearer very deeply unsettling thing to see what has been the reaction in kosovo. Yes i've seen. Some people say an in some of the international news reports of this could produce instability in kosovo. But in fact people have seen this coming ever. Since the the tribunal kosovo specialist chambers was established. People have frankly been expecting some of them most senior leaders to be arrested and face charges because they were the senior leaders of the kosovo liberation army under you investigating them then well of course. There's a good chance that a few of them are going to end up in court at the released but in the messaging. That's coming out is quite interesting. All the people who've been indicted have said that while they think the what they did in the kosovo liberation army was just and fair and right and was a liberation struggle and a proud of what they did. they're also urging people to respect justice and stay calm and that that saying we need to see this process through and at the end of it we will see the kosovo liberation army vindicated. And this was the original message. Came out in two thousand fifteen but on the side of this amer. The court itself has accused several of those accused including hashem patchy of working to undermine the kosovo specialist chambers and also two other former senior leaders of the. Kfi haven't been charged with war crimes but they have been charged with witness intimidation. So that shows you that there's a lot more disquiet about it. In kosovo than perhaps the the noble words yesterday would indicate guide. Aloni thank you as ever for joining us on monocle. Twenty four with a globalist. Now if for some reason you've missed a single thing in this week's news and frankly he would blame you. Monaco's contributing editor. Andrew mueller has taken on the role as news. Gatherer he brings you this. We learned this week. A great deal about the vexations attendant on compiling and allegedly humorous review. Of what. We learned this week to record on thursday afternoon for broadcast on friday morning and then repeated across the weekend when we still haven't learned how the week's biggest story has turned out. We learned indeed that we possessed an amount of understanding which surprised us. Frankly of how president benito spiritual adviser paula white was handling this same. Impasse being dispatched right now. Among the operetta data some other. I'm also katari f on the rick. Dvr shahida for. She's probably still going. Someone should look in on her so we learned that the american electorate probably work with here has declined on mature reflection to offer a second season to the world's worst reality show unless we learned that two thousand and twenty is going to add briefly flaunting illusion of the restoration of some kind of semi sanity to its long list of cruelties. Unless unless we've learned by the time you hear this whenever that is that we still haven't learned anything but really and will direct your attention at this point of the grand scheme of things. Do we ever four. We did learn for certain that somewhere in the vicinity of seventy million americans were absolutely all aboard for another four years of this people. Coming over in bags of silt. Today's what we learned monologue brought to you once again. By the word soup we learned in all probability that trump is will be with us for a while and perhaps literally as well as spiritually if donald trump has been certified as a massive. Lose it by the time you hear this. He is nevertheless entitled to stand again in two thousand and twenty four and attempt to become the first president to serve non consecutive terms. Since come on since seriously since that's all the off the pub quiz team not there are presently any pub quizzes since grover cleveland. Who was president back when people used to be named after a combination of sesame street characters and medium-sized mid western cities. His vice president was come toledo and his secretary of state was big bird. Minneapolis okay you try putting one of these things out. When you've got no idea what's going on and could be overtaken by events at any second we did learn. The recently flourishing conspiracy cult cunanan is going to congress. The folk of georgia's fourteenth district elected republican entrepreneur. And on adherent marjorie taylor green. Who will be wearing her tinfoil hat to washington. Dc in due course we learned because we checked that adjectives that have never been applied to congresswoman elect green include hinged ranged and mentored message for antifa. Terrorists say the hell out of northwest georgia still. We have learned that the beleaguered denizens of the georgia fourteenth will at last be protected from the nonexistent threat posed by an entirely imaginary menace elsewhere. Even if we haven't learned which old white guy has been elected president at ton of writing. Give us a break. It's been a long week. We did learn from the down ticket. Races across the united states of a few rather more heart warming illustrations. Aww america's gloriously rich very tapestry and just to be clear in case everything is sounding like sarcasm at this point to reiterate long week etc that walls intended as sincere tribute in missouri. Corey bush becomes the states first black congresswoman. This is our moment. Black brown white as an indigenous emigrant. Descendants of africans were enslaved in america and first generation refugees. This are moment in delaware. Sarah mcbride becomes. America's first openly trans state senator in wyoming. Cynthia limousine states first female senator in new york. Richie horrors becomes the first openly. Gay afro latino. Us congressman. i never thought as other housing then we'd become a member of the united states. Congress in oklahoma more turner becomes the first muslim state congresswoman and in kansas stephanie buyers becomes the first native american trans person elected to any us state legislature. Which is to say that we learned this week. That whatever the hell else happens. The united states manages to find a way to be at its best even when it is giving every appearance of being at its worst. We learned that. Somewhere beneath the ballyhoo and bluster of the last four years remains a solid core of inclusion generosity and optimism and no amount of events ever going to overtake that for monocle twenty four. I'm andrew eight four in paris. Seven forty four here in london. Let's continue today's globalist with the newspapers. Joining me as asking abdomajid sudanese australian writer broadcaster and regular voice monocle twenty four. Welcome back yes thank you. Would you like to start while. Let's talk with the financial times Which reports that the us stock futures slip as as global rally stumbles. And i think this is a kind of across the board where global stocks so. We'll blame the chinese currency is weakening as the tight. Us presidential election set investors on edge and investors. Love a certainty and. I don't think this week has been much certainty for anyone. Really the us futures for the s and p five hundred and the nasdaq fell on point five percent asian trading so. I think this is something. Obviously we'll see what with the presidential election. It's still i mean friday. Hopefully we'll see a little bit more sutton depending on what happens with current president donald trump and his legal actions. I think this will probably be something that continues. The piece on an financial news came in the south china morning. Post which. I found quite interesting. There's a piece on china. Semiconductors which in semiconductors mind not be the most exciting thing that you know this time of the morning. but what's quite interesting. Is that the the seems to be a sentiment. That even if joe biden is elected as president that the shift towards china's trade policy during the shift towards china on literally policy what be as as strong strong so this currently export controls. Us export controls on emerging technologies in. Semiconductors is specifically deemed essential to use national security and surprisingly will. Perhaps if. I don't know how interested people aren't semiconductors but we find them in everything and so the the chinese have slightly concerned that even if abundant administration was elected they would be unlikely to immediately all unilaterally. Lift trump's controls because the democrats have supported the measures that we introduced a couple of years ago pushing back against semiconductor imports into china. Should i continue. Yes i just a little an explanation as to what does heavy conduct series. It's it's it's it's neither it it it basically semiconductor it helps it helps 'electricity pass through. Doesn't it and you're right. it's absolutely everywhere and it emphasizes perhaps china's What we've had in the last couple of weeks from the plenum last week. When they mentioned that they are going to be more self reliant yet focus on trade with the outside world joe biden cannot hope to unpick all the masters has been created with trade woods with with the united states in the last few years. But there's still a sensitive to he and he's he is still very strong against china. Yes and that's i think another it's one of the things that even if there's joe biden presidency not everything that has happened over. The last four years will be rolled back. It's not like we're gonna go straight back to a two thousand and fifteen Global trade landscape. And it's even if. I could build on that actually in the arab news which was also reported in the jerusalem. Post another thing that Joe biden would not be able to automatically go back to is the iran deal and the israeli minister Ones of wall. If biden returns essentially using really strong words a violent confrontation between the two countries. Because you know biden would biden has said that he would go back to the nuclear iran agreement But of course the current israeli administration is very supportive of donald trump and so it is quite interesting to think Even though there is a sense that there'll be a huge shift if there's a democrat president it's not exactly. It's not that straightforward. It's definitely not that simple. Let's move onto what appears to be an existential rift between Fox news and The current president donald trump. it all stems To the declaration that arizona had gone to joe biden and this happened on election night. Didn't it and and fox quickly quickly retracted it. But there's widespread covers financial. Times has done a piece and it developed in. Germany has done a piece on once. You stop the schism between donald trump and his favorite favorite news station. I think he's done more interviews with them than he has with anybody else. Then you know the trouble in and it's also quite interesting. I was looking at some sort of the history of fox. And i think we tend to forget that. Actually there was a moment early in trump's presidency when Folks did push back a little bit against donald trump and he essentially went to warn them. Megan kelly ended up leaving the station of you know Listen year afterwards. And so on. And so you'd like i think it was a little bit of a surprise perhaps To see folks push back a little bit. But they've i probably redeem themselves slightly. Because i think it was last night when donald trump was doing a press conference and making all sorts of claims. A number of new stations actually cut aways nbc abc. And so on whereas folks and actually cnn. Like ed the whole press conference but it will be interesting to see even whatever happens with the presidency what the relationship between folks and trump continues to be because he does not take kindly to being to being told that he's wrong being shown as not to be winning and so on and also has quite a bit of a a. I would say somebody who might hold a grudge and so it will be interesting to see how this plays out. It's interesting that you mentioned that. Several television networks halted live coverage of trump's address yesterday because of the concerns that he's spreading. Disinformation we've also seen on twitter as well several tweets by donald trump Having the warning that they are inaccurate and misleading in front of them one one does now in this world where i think a lot of people have sort of a focusing their attention on how the media is handling such a difficult difficult situation where effectively the words of the current president and the man fighting to stay in the white house simply cannot be trusted trust in the media suddenly becomes a really important issue. Yes i think it's an incredibly fascinating difficult challenge for the media. Generally and there was a lot of self reflection. I think also the two thousand sixteen election. Because you know i think. Many media's stations and companies gave trump a lot of eh time and didn't think that was actually free advertising and when now in a position where it's not only just the media stations but media companies. But it's also social media platforms. Which in the last year. Oh to have been a lot more active in an interventionist probably because of pushback from. I mean we've seen congress. We've seen the even the antitrust. My god my word. Sorry a there's been all sorts of pushback. I think not only from a legislative point of view but from a public pressure point but it does make it incredibly difficult for media companies. I think when the folks who was supposed to be telling the truth ultimately old Leading effectively lying and so who do the on the media the arbitrators of the truth and this is the question that we are seeing shifts on an and i guess i personally think it's vital because if if individuals can't trust what they see on on cnn or on new york times or on the sort of major platforms then they'll end up going and looking themselves and and that's an even more difficult challenge Yes man thank you very much indeed. We'll have to leave it there. You're listening to the globalist. Ups is a global financial services firm with over one hundred fifty years of heritage built on the unique dedication of all people we bring fresh thinking and perspective to our what we know that it takes a marriage of intelligence and heart to create lasting value for all clients. It's about having the right ideas of course but also about having one of the most accomplished systems and unrivaled network of global experts. That's why at. Ubs we pride ourselves on thinking smarter to make a real difference choon into the bulletin with ubs every week for the latest insights and opinions from ubs all around the world. the on. Today's program going so well weren't they cinemas across the world gradually opening the doors. Not so now in so many places that joining us for the latest from the cinema is a film critic karen krzynowek truck combat karen. Good morning. Everyone was going out. No one's going out again or us going out in some places where how is cinema faring. It's it's not. it's not very happy. This is not a good month a lot of europe I'm okay through all the countries that are closed generally it's felt that any public enclosed gathering place should be shot. And that's what's happened. In fact i was driving yesterday. I heard the discussion about what we should open churches now thinking well you know. Really as far as a social distancing goes. There's really not much difference in cinema as another cinema. Owner told me said people that go to the movies and other thing naturally socially distance. You don't sit next to anybody else and no. Kobe has been caught from a cinema. That's ever been documented so anyway You the uk shut down the us is open sporadically. There is a piece in the ap About how to go back to the cinemas like we need to learn this again. So it's it's really not a good situation Financially it's not great people that work for the for the cinemas and it's not good for us either because as much as we love the convenience of watching something on a small screen there really is nothing like a big screen. There is nothing like big screen. Norris anything like the cinema industry itself and their renewed calls aren't method people to get support and make sure that this whole industry survived exactly and another thing. That's interesting is I've got a lot of friends that work in the industry here and i work at it as well and they're considered essential workers. Because we need this. We need this entertainment. We need to keep these productions going into wanting the cinema industry The movie production industry can do best is sell problems and they're handling the cove outbreak brealey while better than anticipated. It's costing a lot more. It's about a third more. But they're doing a brilliant general Tennis how china is reacting. I mean many people are looking at china and thinking it seems to have just brushed covert offers if it was sort of minus back on shoulder and it seems to be doing the same way. It's sort of bouncing back with with the cinemas into china is winning the box office. Right now i think they've got a sixty percent share of of what's going on now and and everybody's looking to that for a model but then again dave handled the outbreaks differently. There are a few sporadic outbreaks than china. Now but it's not affecting the industry also. This means that they're allowed or they're they're able to send out their new local product and this is one of the problems. I saw a tweet. The disney is killing the cinema because disney is moving all of its releases either to online or to next year. A lot of other studios are following suit While this means that local stuff local production gets gets the spaces that normally would be filled with avengers or batman or whatever It does mean that people are not so much going to the event. Cinemas saying that the local Saint maud i think is number nine. Uk box office right now and. That's a fantastic film that more people should say so. You know china's doing really well with its local cinema production and s- local output. But we're all kind of waiting for the big studios. Hollywood caroline crisanto vich as ever. Thank you for joining us on multiple twenty four. That's all we have time for today's program. Many thanks to our producers danube h page reynolds and color to rebelo are such charlie film mcchord and our studio manager noor hurled off the headlines. More music on the way. The briefing is live at midday in london and the globe turns at the same time on monday when fingers crossed. We might have a better idea of what's happening in the united states. But for now from me m elson goodbye. Thank you very much for listening and have a great weekend Cbs proud to present a nobel cause. A book that celebrates more than half a century the nobel memorial prize in economic sciences a nobel caused gave an overview of the anti four winning laureates and their influence on global society. It builds excitement around economics by talking to the laureates and unpacking their theories from a pioneer in the field of the economics of climate change to an israeli psychologist who changed the way we think about thinking the winners stories. Make for an incredibly diverse. Read as well as real life case. Studies have applications of the prize winning theories. You'll find an illustrated history of global economics alongside a look ahead at what we can expect. 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The News Roundup For May 14, 2021
"This message comes from npr sponsor. Weisan a one. To one tutoring alternative to online classes offering live online personalized lessons in more than three hundred subjects head to w. i z. A. n. t. dot com because it wise and we take learning personally. This is one nine labou for gen white. You're listening to the news roundup. A top republican is out a pipeline hack since washington scrambling and a new set of guidelines. From the cdc says fully vaccinated people can almost return to normal life. Lots to get to on the friday news roundup. So let's jump right in alice. Ole scene is a healthcare reporter with politico alex. Welcome thank you happy to be here julie. Pace is the washington bureau. Chief and assistant managing editor for the associated press julia. It's great to have you thank you for having me and shane. Harris covers national security and intelligence for the washington. Post is also host of the rational security. Podcast eychenne thanks for joining us. Look good to be here. Thanks is the end in sight. New guidelines from the cdc says vaccinated. Americans don't need to wear a mask indoors or out. Most of the time. President biden hailed the move yesterday the center for disease control and prevention. Cdc announced that there are no longer recommending fully vaccinated. People need wear masks. This recommendation holds true whether you are inside or outside. I think it's a great milestone a great day for made possible by the extraordinary success. We've had vaccine so many americans so quickly. julie is a great milestone. How does it feel to you to have the. She hear the president. Say that have you stopped wearing a mask. Well i am vaccinated so now based on cdc's guidelines. That appears i can look. I think this is significant for a couple of reasons. One i think that in terms of the actual science it shows that the country is at a place where we have enough people who are vaccinated and enough evidence of how those vaccines are working. Not just in trials but in real life that we can take this step forward. I also think there's a real psychological impact to this. I mean. I think that it's been one of those one of those moments that we've all sort of wondered about just in our own lives. When will i get to stop wearing a mask. When will i have to. When will i be able to go about life a little bit more. Normally and and for many people for millions of americans that point is now. I think that that's a real boost for a lot of people shane. I see you nodding your head. Is that a sense of relief for you. Also it really is. I mean i think for so many people. And i would put myself in this category. Two thought you'll really know when the pandemic is over when you can take the mask off right that'll be this kind of visible symbol of course science vaccination rates the case positivity rates which at least in dc. Where i live are incredibly low. And that's really aren't heartening. And we're going to see massive reopening here faster than i certainly thought we would but yes i mean just the sense that you don't need this protection for yourself or for others this visible reminder that we've all been walking around with for more than a year of this upside down world. We're living in to know that you can take that off. At least in most circumstances the does feel like we turned a corner alex. Let's talk about some of the details because there are still some important exceptions to this new guidance. Can you share that with us. Yes absolutely so. This was meant to be a very simple message. Wear a mask until you're vaccinated and then you don't have to but there are a lot of caveats fine print here. They're still going to be in place. You still have to wear a mask if you're on a bus or a plane if you're in some kind of healthcare setting like a hospital if compromised and so there are a lot of exceptions and i think there is a lot of complexity opened up here because how our businesses or workplaces or event spaces supposed to verify who is and who is not fully vaccinated. I'm hearing a lot of concern from parents of young children who say now. I'm afraid to take my young child who might not be vaccinated until the fall in into these spaces where people are going to be unmasked. I have friends who are immunocompromised. Who said you know. I felt safe going to the grocery store when everyone knows wearing masks now. I'm a little nervous about this. So i think the administration was really torn between some some different factors here on the one hand. This is such an endorsement of the efficacy of the vaccines. We've had really good data from clinical trials about how effective they were but now they've been put to the test out in the real world and the results have really been amazing. Cases are down hospitalizations. Our way down deaths are the lowest they've been since april of last year. So i think the administration is looking at that data and saying we don't need to require masks for fully vaccinated people no more masks. Nowhere six feet apart. We can go back to some kind of normal life. They're also hoping that this provides a strong incentive for people who are on the fence about whether or not to take the shot to go ahead and get it because they're hoping people who've been thinking you know. Why should i bother getting shot. If i still have to abide by all the same restrictions as before and there is some polling that shows that this could be really compelling especially for the most hesitant population which are self identified republicans. There are some recent polling out of ucla that indicated that getting permission to go maskless would would be a strong incentive for that group. But like i said on the other hand there are all these questions and complexities about how we're supposed to navigate this. This new world going forward and we're getting a lot of Emails and tweets about that. I want to get to that in a second. But truly can i ask you first. We know the logic of this move is. Alyssa was just explaining the health standpoint the data but what about from a political standpoint. What why this about face from the cdc which two weeks ago was telling vaccinating people to still wear masks. It's been really interesting to watch. How the cdc has throughout this pandemic. I think that there has been a feeling at times like they wanted to be more cautious and even when the guidance seem to suggest over the last couple of weeks that they were ready to take this step where they could be ready to take this step. They really held back in. There was a lot of pressure actually on them. People saying hey. Why would people feel compelled to go out and get vaccinated if it doesn't look like the. Cdc is going to make clear that your life will get easier and better. And so. I do think that there was some pressure that they were under to actually Put this out. Maybe faster than they had hoped. But i also think that we have turned a corner on vaccinations and on case numbers. You know if you if you look at some of the rates. It's actually pretty remarkable. How the situation in the us has changed. of course. it's not the case in a large part of the rest of the world but it does feel like they looked at the actual evidence. They looked at some of the pressure that they were under and felt like. This was the right moment to take this step. Some epidemiologists are questioning the wisdom of this advice. Insertion no way to tell from the outside if someone's been vaccinated. We have been getting a couple of comments from our listeners. About this kristie was emailing an indoor spaces. I would like to see separate vaccinated and not vaccinated sections similar to how smoking and nonsmoking sections used to exist. And you would need to show proof of vaccination. Alice is there any. Is there any guidance. From the cdc about how states counties even private businesses should actually implement these new guidelines. So there isn't yet and this this really gets to the heart of it. So the government. The federal government has repeatedly said that they are not going to implement any kind of so called vaccine passport or verification system and so that puts the onus entirely on these individual businesses and so yes you could see a restaurant or a sports stadium creating separate vaccinated and unvaccinated sections but that is a lot to put on that particular venue. And we've already seen that there have been sales of fraudulent vaccination cards going on and we are in a situation where i think for a lot of the country. It's going to be on an honor system and it'll depend on whether after this past year and the behavior of your community. You trust the people around you. To be honest about their vaccination status. Bill was just tweeting fully vaccinated. People should still wear masks in crowded places with numerous people. They don't live with alice. What is the cdc saying about that. So the cdc is saying that outside of these particular settings like i mentioned healthcare settings public transportation airplanes. That's the are saying that if you fully vaccinated you can take your mask off even if you're in a group and even if you're around unvaccinated people but it'll be it'll i think it'll be challenging for people. We've been through a lot of trauma this past year. And i don't think just because the cdc made this announcement yesterday. You're going to see every single person ready to take that step especially if there are people in their family who might be more vulnerable alice this week the fda in the greenland the pfizer vaccine for anyone. Who's twelve up. How significant is it that we can now allow. Twelve to fifteen year olds to also be immunized. It's huge so this could cover up to seventeen million people which is a big step towards getting the country to herd immunity and the data from the clinical trials of the vaccine in this population. Were just incredible. The vaccine was one hundred percent effective in that age group. There were zero cases reported in the trial of the people who got the vaccine and thirty four cases in the people who got the placebo and so big difference. And so i think this could also help a lot on reopening schools. Were seeing that even in places where schools are open for in person. Learning a lot of families are still afraid to send their children back to school and so these shots could really help in that way. There's also another strong public health. Step here Kind of under the radar announcement. That was made along with this. Which is that. They are recommending. Now that children get these vaccines they can get them together with other regular childhood vaccines that they may have missed. During the pandemic there was a lot of anxiety in the public health world that because of the pandemic kids were missing their regular shots. And now they're saying you can get them both together get protected. You're listening to the news roundup. We're discussing the week's biggest headlines. We'll be back with more after the break this message comes from. Npr sponsor amazon prime with the underground railroad from academy award winner. Barry jenkins and based on the pulitzer prize winning novel by colson. Whitehead the new amazon original the underground railroad chronicles core. Randall played by newcomer to so am baidu when she discovers an actual network of trains and tunnels beneath the southern soil. Cora must evade a violent bounty hunter before she can find freedom. The underground railroad premieres may fourteenth on amazon prime video support for npr and the following message. Come from better help. Offering online counseling. Better help therapist hassoo. John knows that lockdown has been hard on us as humans. We as people are hardwired to connect with others. Which is this whole time so difficult. The connection that happens between people and be very powerful and how healing it can be to have a healthy relationship with someone to get matched with a counselor within forty eight hours and save ten percent. Go to better help dot com slash. One iowa kiam mac and cheese the hosts of the npr podcast invisible. Lia you can think of invisibility. Ah kind of like a sonic black light. When you switch us on you'll hear surprising and intimate stories stories that help you notice things in your world that maybe you didn't see before. Listen to the invisibility of podcast from npr. Now let's jump back into the news. Roundup shane The eligibility mansion for kids comes at a time when vaccination rates are on the decline pfizer. Recently pride applied for full. Fda approval of its copen vaccine. How much of a difference would that make towards convincing people who are vaccine skeptical. I'm not really sure. How much would. Since i mean. It seems like people whose opposition to the vaccine is not so much based on the question of whether they think it's available or at works but it seems to be rooted and other suspicions. They have about vaccines in general You know from the conspiratorially minded of you know is there a micro chip in it to ours at some kind of agenda that's being pushed here to just people who i think you in surveys show that they have anxieties about how quickly the vaccines were developed and brought to the general population. So i don't know that having another option necessarily allays those kind of more fundamental suspicions about the vaccines themselves alice. Do we know how soon that could come through. So it's it's in the process we don't know exactly and we also don't know exactly when even younger children will get the emergency use authorization to get vaccinated. The fda is going to convene its advisory panel again in june to talk about that to talk about kids under eleven. And i agree with that. I don't think most people are going to be swayed by the nuanced distinction between emergency use authorization and an approval. I've even seen newspaper headlines conflict. The two and get them wrong. So i really Doubt that the average person is paying attention to those small differences and all the fda really applied pretty high rigorous standard for the emergency use authorization more than in a normal circumstance because of the severity of the pandemic and the need to get something out there quickly and so there were already pretty high standards. And so it's expected that the vaccines will clear the full approval process because they've already met that enhanced standard and i think it's interesting. That pfizer is farther along in this process than the other vaccine makers because they're vaccine requires the coldest storage out of all of the three which could make it difficult to really get out into rural low income areas parts of the country. Individual pediatrician offices. In doctor's offices that might not have the cold storage facilities needed. And that's where we really need to get the vaccine to get enough people immunized to reach a threshold of her immunity alice. You've also recently wrote about how public health officials fear the worst when it comes to highly contagious variance. We just got an email about this from allen who was asking about new variants like the one that started in india that is already spreading in the us and said if some americans still don't get the vaccination. i'm not anxious to take off my mask and enclosed spaces alice. How are health officials thinking of strategy when it comes to these different mutations public health officials that we've been talking to around the country are really concerned that pockets of the country with low vaccination rates where people are already ahead of the seas announcement. This week they were already going unmasked gathering in larger groups. They're really concerned that these could become breeding grounds for these new every time. The virus is transmitted from one person to another person. There's the possibility that mutation could occur and a new variant could emerge and the country has just been lucky so far that none of the variants that have emerged and have been spreading have been able to evade or defeat our current vaccines but that luck could not hold out forever. We could see variant emerge in the future that is able to defeat or avait the vaccine and so that puts the pressure on to really get people vaccinated quickly enough to prevent those transmissions. Now also we've seen a huge investment. Congress passed a bunch of money and they're now implementing it to be able to sequence the virus so when someone gets a positive cova test that goes to the lab and they are able to determine if it's one of these new variants or an a completely new one and that helps public health officials pinpoint where these new variants might emerge and really swoop in and try to isolate and stop it through contact tracing and other methods and so that has ramped up a lot and they are really hoping that that enables them to squash any emerging variance early enough to prevent them from spreading widely all seen as a healthcare reporter with politico at things for joining us. Absolutely julie on this issue of different pandemic programs the tennessee tennessee governor. Bill lee recently announced the is withdrawing from federal unemployment funding and this is a pandemic program that gives people on unemployment and additional three hundred dollars a week. Why is tennessee withdrawing. We'll tennessee and a couple of other states with republican. Governors are are moving to take these steps because they argue that people who are receiving this extra unemployment money are less likely to go back into the workforce that they are using this as a reason to not go out and find a job. I think the reality is that it's complex employment. The employment situation in the us right now is the result of a multitude of factors. We have a situation where there are some people who are staying out of the job market because they are fearful still of contracting corona virus. There are other people who are staying staying out of the job market because a child care remains an issue for them. Some schools around the country are either not open fully not open at all or there's uncertainty about what schooling schooling looks like. That's of course. Particularly impacting women. And yet we do still have a some business leaders and some certainly republicans who are arguing. That one of the reasons is because of this added federal money that has gone to people who are unemployed. Economist really embraced that argument fully. It's definitely something. That's being studied right now but economists at the moment. Don't say that that is the full reason why we saw the jobs report last last week. That showed a far fewer jobs created than many experts had expected from a political standpoint of course for republicans. They can argue that. This is a reason to not plunge into the economy right now. Arguing that it's it's actually not working and could could backfire. She is not just tennessee. There's at least eleven. Other states that are also opting out of the unemployment benefits program. How are we seeing are. How could this impact people in those states. Well potentially it could be. You know cutting off a lifeline to some of them. I mean if these are also individuals who are not going back to work primarily for the reasons that julia louis did you know that they have childcare issues. Fear of the pandemic where perhaps they have a job. That's just been gone in the service industry. This could be something. that's really a lifeline. And supporting them. So i think there's some degree. These governors are taking a bit of a political and economic gamble. Here On the one hand Believe potentially advantageous for them to be seen as resisting these federal benefits and trying to get people back to work at the same time. If they don't really fully understand why people aren't going back into the workforce the way economists had predicted and even the economists don't completely understand that it does seem like they're putting them at risk if they were to sort of. Take away this You know Potentially exclusive source of income. That people have now. Let's talk a little bit about national security for a moment here. this week. The houston-based company colonial pipeline was hacked. The ransomware attack disrupted the gas supply chain in the south and on the east coast shane. The fbi says a group called dark side is behind this attack. This hack. what do we know about them well. Dark said is one of a number of these criminal. Hacker gangs if you wanna think of them that way that specialize in ransomware attacks. And what these are. These are something they could have been flying into the radar for most people for the past five years but really become one of the primary concerns about computer security that we have now these criminal gangs break into the networks the computer systems of a company or a hospital or in some cases local government. That's happened here in d. c. And essentially they take over their data and the either steal it or they encrypted in place such that. it can't be used sometimes both and they say the organization if you want this information back and if you don't want us to spill onto the open internet you have to pay a ransom. Sometimes it's hundreds of thousands or a few million dollars and the case of bigger companies. It can be tens of millions of dollars so this group is one that actually also sells its services to other criminal organizations. So it's quite a sophisticated enterprise. It's believed operate probably in russia which raises all kinds of questions about whether or not it's doing so with the knowledge or at least the tacit permission of the russian government russia and eastern european former soviet countries are really the hotbeds of a lot of these sophisticated criminal. Hacker gangs i. It's interesting here. That i think that this particular group Dark side seem to to quickly get out in front of this story to try to say. Look we're just interested in the money. We're not trying to cause economic disruption or panic They might be a little bit like the dog. Who caught the car here. these ransomware attacks usually are pretty low profile. They get paid. The criminals go away. Business goes back to usual. This is probably the largest cyber attack on a piece of critical infrastructure in the united states ever And now i think it's safe to presume that the full weight of the us intelligence community and the fbi is going to come down on this organization. That heretofore is probably making a pretty good living just standing from people and holding their data hostage. They've created a national security in a global incident. Now do to give back to that. But julie can i just ask you. What the status of the pipeline. Right now as we were seeing so many headlines in images a gas shortages or people lining up for gas this week sure so kalona announced earlier this week that the pipeline was coming back online but also that there would be It took a couple of days to get supplies back to normal. I think this came as a great relief Certainly within the the white house and within the biden administration and that this was not going to be a delay that was extended much more because what we were already seen in a lot of places is gash shortages people really panicking and lining up at the gas station at the pump to fill up their cars and believing that the outages were actually going to be more severe than they ended up being despite the disruption. So there was. There was a bit of a chicken and egg effect that we actually saw on on the ground. We're still seeing some shortages and places even here in dc. A lot of gas stations are out of gas or low on supply but but the company says that supplies should be operating at normal relatively quickly. Julie are all of those gas shortages related to the pipeline. Or how much is it. I remember president biden saying earlier. This week please don't panic. How much is is just Issue of people rushing to be worried about things and then creating a problem. It's it's a bit of both. We saw an actual supply issue at the start and then the supply issue created panic and people who probably had no reason to rush to the gas station to fill up their car. Did so and then it's the same thing that we sometimes see in situations. When a hurricane is approaching natural disaster is approaching. You go to the grocery store you go to the gas station you stock up and it creates this feeling. That of my neighbor is going to do this. Maybe i should too. And so we saw that sort of follow up happening from other people and there really was a push by the white house to try to urge people to not panic but but i do think that the biggest thing that they are happy about at the white house is that the supply seems to be going back to normal because the while the supply wasn't issue it really was that follow on panic that created a lot of these shortages and to the actual hack itself. Peter just rodas. This just clearly illustrates how vulnerable we are slight disruption in the delivery that lasted no longer than routine maintenance caused unnecessary and overblown panic. That was a successful result of the attack. Shane what does this say about the vulnerability of our infrastructure in the us. It's not a good message. these are vulnerabilities in critical infrastructure. That you know candidly security. Officials in government officials are known about for years. and there's really never been a significant momentum in washington to try and fix this. Maybe this will be different. What's notable too about this attack on the colonial pipeline is. The hackers didn't get into the systems that physically control the infrastructure would have some called the operational technology they got into centrally to their office systems. to the places that are kind of thinking about you know running the more routine kind of day to day functions. The company then took the step of shutting everything down. Now there'll be an after action about whether that was the right thing to do whether that went too far but it just demonstrates that these computer systems which audits apparently have shown where woefully lacking in the case of colonial Are vulnerable and it doesn't take that much to get in and cause these massive ripple effects in this kind of panicked buying or the kind of panicked induce economic knock on consequences. These are things that are played out in war games when the defense department corporations imagine what would happen. If a hacker got into pipeline in some sense it's playing out as people feared something like this would which only makes it. I think more frustrating. A lot of security experts is to say you know. Well you know this can happen. So why do we keep letting it happen. Wire we tempting disaster. Which is what happened right if there are war. Game simulations about this. Why aren't we better prepared for this shape. The problem really comes down to the fact that so much of the private computer infrastructure and critical infrastructure pipelines. It's not controlled by the federal government. It's not owned by the federal government. And it's not regulated in any kind of universal fashion or in some cases even with what we would consider regulation. There's not a regulation of what computer security standards need to be on a pipeline may start to change now. Finally there may be turning a corner. There's new executive order. The president biden has signed. It's trying to sort of tighten up some of these rules into us. The buying power of the federal government to demand that companies that sell it technology. Raise the standards of their security. Maybe that will have a ripple effect in the private sector but we just don't centrally managed. The internet is really what it comes down to and so many of these companies and individuals ourselves. We're all kinds of on our own in some cases or beholden to the companies that we buy this technology from to make sure that it safe and well put together and defended Know the government has hard time managing. Its own computer networks and it just doesn't see to it On a national level julie. To shane's point one has the white house said about what it's doing to prevent something like this. What have we heard from the biden administration this week. We haven't heard a ton in terms of real specifics. I think that they are trying to figure out exactly what the process looks. Like here. The president signed an executive order this week. Which is aimed at bolstering. Thorough government defenses aimed at trying to bolster critical infrastructure in the us. But you know to shane's point. This is a problem that that the federal government has seen coming and just hasn't been able to get its hands around there. They always seem to be a few steps behind these groups and certainly the state actors who want to target critical infrastructure and while we have seen an increase certainly on the ransomware attacks. Your i think that everyone is fearful of of what a large scale state actor could do to critical infrastructure in the us. Right and we haven't even talked about how different states and local officials are prepared for this. We'll continue the news roundup and have more from our guests after the break. This message is sponsored by norton publisher of premonition lewis in two thousand nineteen a panel of public health. Experts judged the united states to be more prepared than other nations for a pandemic. Where did we go wrong. New from the best selling author of the big short moneyball and the fifth risk comes a taught and brilliant nonfiction thriller that pits a band of medical visionaries against a wall of ignorance. The premonition pandemic story by michael lewis wherever books are sold from. W w norton hi. It's gen white from politics to pop culture one as the place for the national conversation on. Npr and are upgraded won a. Vox pop is the fastest and easiest way to add your voice. You'll see the latest and get a jump on upcoming stories all at the press of a button. Download the new one eight. Vox pop app for ios and android today and make yourself heard loud and clear on one a support for npr in the following. Message come from better help. Offering online counseling. Better help therapist. Hassoo joe knows. That lockdown has been hard on us as humans. We as people are hardwired to connect with others. Which is why this whole time so difficult. You're listening to the news roundup. Let's get back to the conversation. Julie when we think about preparation and infrastructure when it comes to vulnerability from cyber attack when we're thinking about the state and local level are we. Are there states. That are better prepared than others. Or is this also another vulnerability it's a huge vulnerability. You know we talked before the break about the federal government feeling like they're always a few steps behind the state and local level. It's even worse. I think one of the things that the biden administration is talking about is trying to close that gap by having more cooperation between state and local governments but also what seems to be sorely needed. And i think this was really exposed during the during the colonial Ransomware attack is cooperation between the public and private sector. You had cyber officials in the government saying that they did not think that you'll colonial didn't come to them right away to alert them to this to this attack and some of what you hear from industry is that they don't feel the government has the capabilities to help. So they don't they. Don't seek out there assistance right away. A but then. There's this information sharing gap that is created there and it does trickle down to the state and local level as well and so i think that the the the one link at every level here is this feeling like the. Us knows this is a problem noses to something that needs to get its hands around but is not an able to keep up with the fast pace and the fast pace of change that we're seeing from state actors some of these these criminal gangs shane. I imagined the publicity of this week may change feelings about this in terms of having more people on board with trying to fix this. Yeah i think it probably will create some more some more momentum for it Certainly affected colonial appears to have had such week. Security is going to raise more questions about whether washington needs to do more to regulate pipeline providers. Which actually are separately managed from the electrical grid which of confuses some people a little bit But you know this really has become kind of a. You know a managed problem. Sadly i mean ransomware tax rampant insurers reimburse companies that are victims of this. And to julie's point you know the victims are not exactly looking to the fbi and the homeland security department's as bastions of effective cyber defense. They're looking to private corporations that specialize in these kinds of things to either bail them out of a problem once it's happened or to protect them in the future. what. I hear when i talked to companies. Is that what they would like from. The federal government is yes more. You know on the spot. Current intelligence about what state actors are trying to do But be perhaps actually retaliating against some state actors and drawing very cruel red lines that say if you come after certain pieces of infrastructure in the united states we will take that as a state interest and we will retaliate proportionately for that that is something that only the federal government can do they have the exclusive use of force to retaliate against these kinds of things. Let's move onto politics. It's official as of a few hours ago. New york representative elise stefanik has replaced. Wyoming's loose cheney as chair of the house republican conference. Cheney was ousted on wednesday for her criticism of former president donald trump specifically her criticism of his lies around election fraud. Here's what cheney told. The today show's savannah. Guthrie what does it say about former president trump that he will not accept this loss that he's unfit. You know that he he never again can be anywhere. Close the oval office. How far are you willing to take this. Would you run for president. I think that it is the most important issue that we are facing right. Now as a country and we're facing a huge array of issues so he must not ever again be anywhere close to the oval office. Shane can you remind us why. Cheney is out isn't all specifically because of donald trump election. Will i mean it's in large part. Because they think kevin mccarthy the leader of the republicans in congress you know says at least that he wants to change the subject and move on from talking about So-called big line donald trump's fraudulent claims In says at least sharon liz. Cheney kept kind of bringing it up and it was unable in his view To to do the job of conference chair which he uses backing president trump. It's worth noting that you know. The election lies are pretty much all former president. Trump talks about right now so if what representative mccarthy is interested in doing is moving on from that conversation it seems like he also might want to talk with donald trump about that. But you know what's also striking about this. It's not as though. Liz cheney was some kind of outlier within the republican party that was bucking the party line when donald trump was the president. I mean she voted with him. The vast majority of instances and had a far higher rating in that regard then at least the representative who is replacing her. Who you know. When she got elected in twenty fourteen was not what you would call a trumpy person and kind of has evolved into one at least in her more public statements. So it seems that this is really about liz. Cheney not going along with what is the party line now and it seems that in order to hold a position of leadership in the republican party in congress you have to say i too believe there was something fraudulent about the election. Julie do you think that's the case. What is this move. Say about where the republican party is now. Well i think it's important to note that this is what we're talking about right now are republicans in the house. There are some slightly different politics for in the senate republican governors but for republicans in the house who feel very strongly that they have a shot at taking back the majority in the midterms next year their strategy is to align themselves with donald trump. There is no question about that right now. Some of them going so far as to deny what is so obvious to all of us who saw the images and remember them so clearly from january. Six at that actually wasn't an insurrection with one republican lawmakers say that the rioters looked like just tourists. I'm not sure what kind of tourist they hang out with but it didn't look like tourists to me. I think that in the house they feel like donald trump is the biggest motivator for their base. That he is the ticket to their fundraising success and ultimately their electoral success. I do think that it will be really interesting to watch. Liz cheney over the next year so you know what kind of momentum if any can she can she bring Can she pull other lawmakers over toward her. Do we see this dynamic in the country change. I think what has a lot of people worried that. Oh so much of what we are hearing is fueled by misinformation. And that's not going away anytime soon. So she's not just fighting against her her party and house leadership she is really also fighting against these bigger forces. That are helping fuel this lie about the election and increasingly lies now about what happened on january six. I wanna get to january. Sixth of the moment. But we've been talking about house. Minority leader kevin mccarthy just hours after cheney was ousted as conference chair. This is what he said. I don't think anybody is questioning the legitimacy of the presidential election. I think that is all over with sitting here with the president today for some republicans. It's not all over with as far as the damage. Former president trump has done to the party. According to reuters mo- more than one hundred prominent republicans are threatening to create a third party if the gop doesn't break ties with trump. Julie how serious this threat to form a third party. Well at the moment. It doesn't seem that it's much beyond rhetoric you're not seeing any actual groundwork laid for the creation of third party but i do think it's something to watch if the republican party becomes a party of trump in the sense that he is the central force that he is the organizing principle. I do think that you were going to have other republicans who are going to look for other options. They're not going to become democrats. They want to focus on actual policy proposals. They may be social conservative so they they don't want though to be completely centered on the former president but starting your own party having your own your own party be competitive and be able to make an impact in in state local and and ultimately federal elections. A is a is a big lift. And we're not seeing that kind of groundwork a really happening at the moment shane. Who what do we know about these one hundred republicans. Who signed this letter. Well we've seen reported some of the people who who might be signatories to it Tom ridge of pennsylvania former secretary of homeland security. Christine todd whitman from new jersey mickey edwards from oklahoma. Who's been very outspoken You know kind of anti-trump if you want to say that barbara comstock. Virginia these are basically the republicans that have been the most vocal in criticising the former president and have been the most concerned about the future of the party which they see as Dismal if it continues to go down the path of following donald trump and not just his policies. But you know the rhetoric that we're talking about right now you know but to serene force julie's point i mean we live in a two party system and they know that there is not a great history of of third parties or opposition parties. Having success it can take a long time to build these infrastructures. What is interesting though is if you know if enough people actually were coalesce around a candidate maybe it's cheney and twenty twenty four. It might not take that much in certain kind of battleground states maybe to peel off enough support from a republican candidate to actually help a democrat. That's one potential scenario. That i'm sure. Democrats are are relishing right now remembering that arguably ralph nader hadn't been on the ballot in two thousand al gore might have been elected president But you know again that's for that's a ways away and i think the idea that even some of these very prominent well respected republicans. People like tom ridge mickey edwards others. would form a viable third party. That would sort of give the republican party. A run from its money or split down the middle that just that. That doesn't seem like there's the historical evidence for that Or just the evidence of it based on hoover seeing there's no elected members of congress who are threatening to leave and join a new party right now. No governors are other state officials. That i'm aware of julie. Let's turn to what you were talking about with the house. Hearing on january six insurrection at the capital on wednesday several house republicans as well as former trump administration officials took the stand for the first time. And here's a montage of what five congressmen shared in their testimony as compiled by the washington post. There was an undisciplined mob. There were some rioters and some who committed acts of vandalism. But let me be clear. There was no insurrection and to call it an insurrection. In my opinion is a both face. Line was january sixth insurrection or could it be more accurately described as a mob of misfits committing disorderly conduct violent entry civil disorder vandalism unlawful entry etc. You know the crime that these people are actually charged him at two. Oh seven of mob of trump supporters breach the steps. I don't know who did oppo That is trump supporters in fact it was trump supporters who lost their lives that day trump supporters who were taking the lives of others. I've repeatedly asked for the capital footage from before and during january six such footage would provide answers could contain exculpatory evidence regarding the outrageous accusations against members of congress and most importantly exonerate the many americans who peacefully protested never set foot in the capital that was representative andrew. Clyde of georgia representative pat fallon of texas representative. Ralph norman of south carolina representative. Jody hice of georgia and representative. Paul gosar of arizona. Julie heard false statements from house. Republicans about the january. Six insurrection. Else has come out this week. Well it's actually really difficult to hear those Soundbites play together because it is just so at odds with reality. What what. I think is is remarkable about january six is that it played out in front of our eyes. And you don't have to do much digging to look at the photos and video from the six and hear from eyewitness accounts from republicans democrats journalists staffers on the on the hill to know what really happened. And i think what you are seeing. Is this real attempt to mislead the public about what about what happened there. It's it's nothing short of a misinformation campaign by sitting members of congress. And i think that you know we in the media for no political reason but just because we believe in the facts need to continue to to call that out because this was one of those. Really seminal moments in american history. Wasn't that long ago either. And the fact that we're having this attempt to really you know wipe it away and change. The narrative is pretty disturbing. I would say shane this morning house. Democrats and republicans reached a deal on. Establishing a bipartisan committee to investigate the capital attacks but if certain members of congress in summer informer trump administration officials are to julie's point continuing dispute the basic facts. Where do we go from here is really hard to see. How if that's the case. You could have a truly bipartisan and objective investigation of this event analogous to the one that we had after the nine eleven attacks which is what most people hold up. Is the gold standard for how you do. A big bipartisan investigation. Which remember there was the nine eleven commission appointed experts and there was also a congressional nine eleven investigation. you know one of the sticking points of one of these for investigations for the january. Six attack has been you know whether or not republicans would use it. As an opportunity to dredge up claims about voter fraud and more of the kind of the big lie. So called conspiracies and that you would basically turn this into something kind of looked more like the benghazi hearings which were just riven by partisan interest. Which kind of sounded like people were talking about. Two different storylines in doesn't produce what anyone would look at as a reliable credible investigation. The national rifle association has been trying to declare bankruptcy in this week. A judge said no the ruling means the nra must face new york officials who were calling to dissolve the organization. Shane what's going on here. Well this stems from the yorkshire attorney general's investigation of the nra. Of course this immensely powerful lobby specifically on on guns and rifles four investigations of self dealing some pretty shocking allegations against the longtime ceo. Wayne lapierre about For no-show contracts and other questionable expenses what. This does the as the judge basically said. In this case you can't try to declare bankruptcy and reincorporate yourself in texas to escape the new york attorney general. The state you're already incorporated and basically said this was just a flagrant abuse of the bankruptcy law. That would the nra was trying to do here and notably The nra's had came out and said they accept the ruling. I think they know that this was kind of a hail. Mary effort to try and get away from the attorney general in new york. And now they're going to have to face the music there julia. So where does this go from here. Well i think what's really interesting about the. Nra is this question of whether they're actual power in an organization is is actually important when it comes to the gun policy debate right now. They have really reshaped over the last several years. The debate over guns in america in a way that has that has really held off progress on on gun control legislation. And so i. I sometimes think that it's important to separate the actual future of the nra from the impact in that. Will i think last long beyond their power as an organization on the way that legislation in this country moves or does not move to end with julie. Pace is the washington bureau chief and assistant managing editor for the associated. Press and shane harris covers national security and intelligence for the washington post and has also host of the rational security podcasts. Thanks to both of you for joining us. One as lead audio engineer and sound designer. Is jake cherry. He gets technical assistance from my kid. Ben privet and rashad young. Alien humphries is the producer and editor of one a on demand. Chris costano is digital editor. You're listening to the news roundup. We'll discuss the week's biggest headlines from around the world in just a moment. This is a support for this podcast. And the following message come from k. Buxbaum in support of the david gilkey and zaba ulitsa mono- memorial fund established to strengthen npr's commitment to training and protecting journalists in high risk environments support for npr comes from newman's own foundation working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from newman's own food products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at newman's own foundation dot org that time when we wrap up the biggest stories from overseas. It's the news roundup. One story dominates summed up this way in. Today's edition of the washington post israeli really forces hit hamas tunnels in gaza as all out war looms. There are other stories for us to get to. But that's where we'll start joining us this week. Nancy yousef is national security correspondent for the wall street journal. Nancy always great to have you here. Always great to be here. Thank you paul. Danna heart is the washington bureau chief for the bbc. He's the author of the book. The new middle east the world after the arab spring and laura seligman. laura covers the pentagon for politico laura. Thanks for being with us. Thanks so much for having me. Let's take you first to jerusalem. Despite calls for calm the region this week has seen some of the worst violence for seven years. It's left both palestinians and israelis dead including children. Both israel and gaza have come under fire from each other's rockets. Daniele czeslaw is a reporter for the jerusalem at the jerusalem. Bureau of the afp danila. Can you tell us where things stand right now. Hi nyla yes. Israeli bombardments in gaza have killed at least one hundred and twenty two people including more than thirty children. Israel says its bombing gaza because of rockets and hamas and other groups have fired close to two thousand rockets into israel and nine people on that side have died. Also clashes erupted today in the west bank as palestinians demonstrated in solidarity with gaza and nine people died and we're seeing night after night of ethnic strife between jewish and palestinian arab citizens of israel in vigilante attacks on synagogues and mosques people cars. I want to tell you to postcards from this week. A friend of mine who is arab. His family hid their ramadan decorations. In jaffa is starkly section of tel aviv. That was after in the next town over. Jewish mob shattered the windows of own stores and assaulted a driver. They thought was arab beating him on the street. And i also met this week. Jewish family in the town of loyd near the tel aviv airport who said arab attackers bring their car. And as this couple looked out their window they came under a hail of stones and then a few minutes later air raid sirens fired and they in their kids had to take cover this civil unrest israelis and palestinians say. It hasn't been this intense in twenty years. Daniela how widespread is that civil unrest year in jerusalem. We've heard about the city of load. Where else is that happening. It's really happening. All over the country. I saw one journalist today. Tweeted that in the town of tiberius in northern israel where also jewish and arab citizens of israel live owners of restaurants on both sides our boarding up their windows. This particular journalists said it's plywood just like in the united states and you're really seeing protests in many many cities on roads. People are attacking police stations. they're attacking synagogues. They're attacking mosques. There's a sense right. Now that the fragile fabric of this country is fraying margaret emailed. There's no chance of an all out. War between israel and the palestinians. Palestine has no war making capabilities. It's only weapons are low grade inaccurate rockets that have done very little damage. They have done nothing to match the overwhelming force of the israelis who are destroying entire neighborhoods on a flash compare the casualties that tells a story. That's what margaret just emailed us. Ten yellow where. I'm where are we at with. Casualties mentioned at the top. Were seeing more than one hundred in gaza more than hundred palestinians in gaza. Israel says at least thirty of those people killed were militants and on the israeli side. We're seeing nine. People killed so far including one soldier. and in some senses margaret is right. israel is leveling entire towers. Three of those were razed to the ground. Artillery fire aimed at wiping out hamas tunnels has also done severe damage to residential neighborhoods however hamas rockets have been able to disrupt life in israel briefly. The parliament was sent into shelter on monday Flights into ben gurion airport near tel aviv were disrupted. There have been days where children haven't gone to school. Workers have gone into their offices so for israeli they also feel like they're under threat and this week a five year old was killed in the border town of st when a rocket penetrated the air raid shelter where he and his family were danilo. What set off this latest round of violence. Well i'm talking to you from jerusalem. This is where the walled old city is. An inside is the aksa mosque compound with its glittering. Dome of the rock. That's the heart of this round of violence. Palestinians i spoke to in the old city said for weeks during ramadan. Israel had restricted to areas where they gathered after prayers and on friday last week. Palestinians threw stones and fireworks at israeli police officers stormed the mosque campaign compound the plaza and the mosque itself where we saw riot police. Firing rubber bullets stun grenades inside. The mosque. filled with worshipers that's been one source of the fighting and another has been an east jerusalem neighborhood called shake giraffe dare israeli settlers through israeli courts trying to evict palestinians who have lived there for decades. Israel has said. This is a private real estate dispute but these are palestinians who fled their homes in one thousand nine hundred forty eight during israel's war for independence and when jordan was in charge of east jerusalem jordan built them houses. Jews have been claiming that because jewish people owned land in the neighborhood before nineteen forty eight. They should be able to reclaim it. That's right palestinians don't have so after this weekend of clashes at alexa hamas in gaza began firing rockets into israel. And that's where this current round started. I think also. It's important to note that gaza is under blockade enforced by israel and egypt so for people who are there. There's not a lot of options of where to go. I spoke to political scientist. Mohamad abas cited today in gaza city By phone and he said his mother and brothers are moving in with him in gaza city to escape artillery attacks from israel But safety is definitely no guarantee and he told me he's keeping his windows open to keep them from shattering. when nearby buildings are targeted. The united nations has called for calm. Two of its top officials have called out israel's quote aggressive response to protests in east jerusalem. And they've also called on israel to they've also called on. Israel is quote the occupying power to immediately lift eviction threat from hundreds of palestinian folds. What role is the. Us playing here while the white house. Spokesman jen psaki spoke earlier this week about some of the work going on behind the scenes. A lot is happening privately through diplomatic channels. It's happening with officials in the region. We're in regular dialogue multiple times. A day i with egyptian and cutlery officials who have significant influence over hamas and our objective. Here is de-escalation as we look to Protecting the people region nancy. How much influence can the white house bring to bear on de escalation. Well as you know. They've called for it since the beginning of the week. And then we have not seen a de-escalation on the contrary seen an escalation of violence and so that speaks to some of their effectiveness or lack thereof the other complication is that president biden and bibi. Netanyahu don't have a strong relationship It took weeks for them to communicate. After president biden's inauguration and so we haven't seen the effects of the us effort Play out in israel. And i think part of the administration's meshes a talking about egypt and cutter is acknowledgement that it'll be regional partners that will have more sway than than the. Us does now for the israelis one could argue that For for them. It's actually to their advantage because in a democratic administration there'd be much more pressure than they're facing right now on so. I think that the answer is that it's been a little bit limited and we've seen it and the relatively constrained response and we have seen in the past we didn't hear. Us officials reaching out to their israeli counterparts until wednesday and has danielle and noted. Things really escalated on monday. And i and i think that really speaks to a more deliberate biden administration and one that Whose relationship with israel such makes it harder for them to have the highness way then then they past administrations would have laura one about the pentagon. What have we heard this week from u. s. defense secretary. Lloyd austin. Well what we've heard. So far is really not much. He's he's spoken to his israeli counterpart. Benny gaunt's also the pentagon policy chief spoken do his israeli counterpart about the conflict. But really there hasn't been much at all from the pentagon now. The regional context here is really interesting. Trump supporters love to say that biden inherited a a peaceful middle east but in fact the conflict like this has been simmering for months if not years and of course the the background here is president. Trump's break with decades of us policy to support israeli settlements on palestinian land and. Interestingly the plight of the palestinians has sort of been oba forgotten during the trump years as iran also became the big the bigger issue in the middle east and in fact regional partners many arab states have actually been covertly working with israel to counter iran. So all that's kind of coming to bear right now. Danila as we think about going into the weekend is there any hope of a cease fire. What is the israeli government saying about that. Netanyahu today did not sound like a dove with an olive branch He said that hamas quote attacked us on our day of celebration. They attacked our capital. They fired rockets that our cities they're paying and will continue to pay dearly for that. It's not over yet and Santa maria senior hamas leader in exile told british tv. It's a london-based satellite channel. Rb on friday that his group has turned down a proposal for a three hour. Low to allow for more negotiations toward a full ceasefire and one sign. That things might really be going in an unexpected direction. is that a group of protesters in lebanon. Who are demonstrating against israeli policy in. Gaza broke through the border today. and israeli troops fired toward them if that would escalate into an additional front. That might take what was a fairly confined Conflict into a much wider perspective. Well thank you daniella. Czeslaw is a reporter with the. Afp's jerusalem bureau danilo. We appreciate your time stay safe. Thank you very much. Let's take a step back and try to better understand what's behind this latest conflict between the israelis and the palestinians. Here's a sample of the public positions taken by both sides. Let's start with the israelis mark. Regev is a senior adviser to prime minister. Benjamin netanyahu he's been speaking to sky news and held out little hope amid immediate end to the violence. We've had three nights in a row. Where the signs have been going off in major population centers in israel where people are being running to the bump shelters. My family included. But there's no point to have some sort of bandai quick fix only to go through all this again next week. We want to come out of this with a sustained period of quiet. We want a new reality where we don't have to live in fear of these incoming brokers that's mark regev obbassador who psalms psalm lot is the head of the palestinian mission to the uk and former head of the plo mission to the us. He's been speaking to the bbc. The master made it clear who he blamed for this escalating crisis. He said palestinians will not sit back and be treated like second class citizens. You can imagine not only by the way inside the occupied territories but even inside self this whole system is the racism endemic in. It is the vulgar ultra-nationalism. If you see the images don't listen to me. Look at the footage. People were praying and when we act with dignity when we resist this the whole thing becomes about our resistance are struggled. Let's be clear while there might be two sides. This is not a symmetric battle. Paul is it no. It's not. I think he's a very different battle to the ones we've had four. I think what's changed is involvement in the protests at a massive level of arab israelis because in the past the conflict. The intron has been having narrowly being with the palestinians on the west bank palestinians in in gaza hamas. I think what's changed. Actually has some routes within the trump administration because the recognition of jerusalem as israeli reading capital. The moving the embassy basically said to arab is raise. The israel was taking control completely of jerusalem. And it wasn't going to be handing become the idea of it. Being contested area was lost. And i think whereas in the past they looked at what was happening in shakespeare are east jerusalem where palestinians were being from a hubs as something happening to people what palestinians want in the same situation as raise. They now look the fact that the international community seems to be quite the accepting the jerusalem will be controlled by israel. And they're thinking well you know what's happening to them today. Could actually happen dress tomorrow. And i think that's what's really changed things. This time around this. This company was started because of concerns about what was happening in east jerusalem and mass basically jumped on the bandwagon to try and championed calls. But i mean even when the fighting stops and are tried and tested mechanisms between israel and mice to bring these sort of things through conclusion. The logo lasting impact will be the relationship between the arab israeli community and the jewish community and to take an awful long time to settle down and to try and be resolved. Nancy how much have we heard from the palestinian authority. Well just a little background because in the run-up to this the bus had announced that elections which were scheduled parliamentary elections. Excuse me which were scheduled for may. Twenty second would be delayed indefinitely. The official reason was that there was no guarantee that election could be held securely in east jerusalem but many saw this as An abyss who was worried that he would lose votes and influence in part to hamas and then this conflict broke out and hamas has been in the position now of being able to say that it it is defending the palestinian cause while a palestinian authority is standing by relatively silently the palestinian authority that was willing to negotiate with the israelis is now ineffectual in defending the capital in defending alaska mosque and so They have been arguably weakened politically by by. What's happened. And i think the delay the elections was was enough to fuel. This idea that a week palestinian authority was afraid of a rising hamas. Paul pointed out the events of these last few days allowing hamas to demonstrate It's defensive drew. Some has further weaken the palestinian authority. And how much mart support does hamas have on the ground. So it's it's it's hard to say. Think arguably has more than the palestinian authority. That the reason i hesitate is you know hamas on one hand is in charge of governance in gaza and these strikes now are leading to Civilian casualties and that was sort of a known. By launching these strikes they may made residents. They're susceptible but at the same time they are presenting themselves as advocates for the palestinian cause. And so because of the feelings on the ground right now one could argue that they have growing influence there also up against the palestinian authority that is seen as corrupt and ineffectual. And so there's certainly an opportunity for hamas influence and power and perceived to grow in a way that wasn't true arguably just a few weeks ago. Nc just mentioned elections in the palestinian authority. Paul to what extent has israel's own political instability been a contributing factor to what we've seen this week. I think the big effects in terms of these brady politics has been the the gradual and quite stock over time shift to the right in the middle of the Ground in israel has been competing hollered out. The left has been very much sidelined to the very very left. And so israel. I mean that was the time. Benjamin netanyahu was considered to be a very conservative politician in his now. He's almost centuries. There are so many more people to the right. So what we've seen is a very very hard line. Approach towards the palestinian is many many people that be. The fooled ought to be government or have influenced type of forming a government. Basically wanted to take over the whole west. They have absolutely no time whatsoever for the two state solution. So you seen. Israeli politics moved to the right. The palestinian authority is just completely unable to do anything really. They don't have the power they don't have clout. They don't even have in many ways. Support the people anymore and when we talk about the administration talking to the palestinians. They're talking to the palestinians have absolutely no control. What's going on in gaza and the biden administration isn't talking to amass. So you're kind of talking to the people. The car actually do anything about what's going on in gaza and you know what is instead of late is that there are channels of communication and israel has done more negotiating over the years quietly with and then dominate the palestinians because they know how to resolve these conflicts because they're very important to both sides to be resolved so i think the difficult things going to be within israel that israel arab israeli-arab jewish israeli kind of conflict was going to be really tough to resolve. This is real israeli administration because they're seen as being so thoughts right in the united states israeli arab. Nancy when we think about that conflict that paul was talking about it. Sounds like it's almost too soon to even be talking about a resolution when we're hearing what daniele saying about what's happening on the streets. Well the biden administration has said as much that that this is not the time for Talking about this fundamental issue which is negotiations between the two sides. I should note that in the run up to this. I think there was a perception that by doing things like reach not to regional partners by doing policies around this sort of central issue of the relationship between the two sides that these kinds of conflicts could be avoided. And i think what we've seen this week that that is not the case that these issues have to be dealt with Head on and so While the us says that this is not the right opportunity. I think part of it is because of the situation on the ground. I think also part of it is because the us is not in a position to lead them in the way that they did before. I mean to give you a sense this week. The united states said that it was deploying a diplomat to be a part of the talks on on wednesday. And we haven't even heard whether whether that diplomat has arrived and what what is happening and so How you reach a settlement. When the sort of normal broker the united states is not in the position do it and the hostilities. Highs they are i think is very. It's very hard to see at the moment and yet is essential. I think this week has taught us in terms of resolving this in any sort of enduring way that's cnc yousef national security correspondent with the wall street journal. Paul dan hard. The washington bureau chief for the bbc is also with us along with laura seligman a pentagon reporter for politico and you Ian justice was tweeting. If the white house wanted israel to stop the attacks they could threaten to cut the three point. Eight billion dollars in foreign military aid. We give them every year. How can you talk about pressure and not mentioned that laura. Is there any discussion around that. Well i think. I think certainly there's been a lot of pressure. In in recent years around particularly the the the arab neighbors the region has really been a lot of tensions. That are so just important to note that right now sort of what's going on. Is that egypt. And other arab neighbors have been pressuring both sides to de-escalate so egypt qatar and the united nations are leading these truths efforts and there have been reports that an egyptian delegation is in tel aviv. For talks with israel officials as part of these efforts to negotiate for a ceasefire Egypt often serves as a mediator between israel and hamas and it's been a key player ending these past rounds of fighting however there there has been really no progress made in in any kind of ceasefire like like nancy side. It's going to be difficult to resolve this conflict. it's also another interesting piece of his. Iran's role obviously there have been rising tensions with the us and other nations in recent years. Iran has been supplying weapons and weapons designs to hamas which has been using these more advanced rockets. This week that we've seen to strike further into israel Recently is egypt has tried to crack down on this illicit smuggling of these weapons to gaza by iran but hamas has been developing its own production schedules. So all these tensions are flaring right now. You mentioned iran. I want to turn now to a tragedy in afghanistan at least eighty five people. Mostly women and girls are dead after a bombing at a school on saturday in kabul. The attackers detonated the bombs justice girls were streaming out of their classes. Npr correspondent dea. Hotted spoke to fresh to kareem who runs a charity that sets up mobile mobile libraries across kabul. I think i felt like my heart bound off my chest. This war is now so brutal that no one has saved. Nothing is save. Schools are not safe. I have a moral dilemma right now. Should we asked children to go to school. at wendy's schools are not safer them. Can we do that nancy. What more do we know about what happened here. Well as you know. It really was a a devastating attack and i for me personally. What was so haunting. There was a picture on the front page of the new york times of boy holding his sister's backpack at at the scene looking for her to just it was just horrific and one of the worst attacks. We've seen on civilians in afghanistan in the past year. We know that. No one's claimed responsibility. Although the taliban has denied responsibility and that the school was in an area where his ariz who are a shiite group Live and and the and they've been regularly targeted by these state. It in afghanistan and so for me there are two takeaways. I think in the short term these kinds of attacks really undermine that communities trust in the afghan government's ability to provide security for them and it really further erodes Any support that. The governor has from and i think long term. It's it's it's fueling fears that they've withdrawal of us and cohesion forces in the next couple of months. will lead to more spectacular tax in kabul in a bid by groups like the taliban and isis to take control of territory against a weakened Kabul government that no longer has assurances of air strikes by the coalition to support their operations and so I think there's there's a an immediate impact in terms of inner Afghan politics but really just reaffirmed fears of where the country's going in just a matter of weeks as as as the us and coalition of said that they hoped to be out by july before we get back to the withdrawal. Laura girls were banned from attending school when the taliban was running afghanistan and activists have worked really hard since the regime ended to get more girls back into classrooms. What does bombing mean for that progress. Well i think symbolically this is a sign of what may be to come if the taliban takes over more and more urban population centers and key regions of afghanistan. It's it's clear that the taliban is is likely not going to recognize the progress and the rights of women that really have been made in the past few years more and more women girls going to schools In this horrific attack really shows that all that the old afghanistan that the Executions of of women that refused to wear their their jobs. That's going to potentially come back and much of the progress that women have made in the past couple of years when the us has been in dan That's just going to all be eroded. Potentially palton point about the us being in the process of withdrawing troops from afghanistan ahead of the september eleventh deadline of this year is one president biden plans to have the country clear of all military personnel. Does this tax change. Any of the white house is thinking as we approach that date. I think the reality is that america's maids decision a doesn't think staying any longer is going to stop this kind of thing from happening. I feel that they're gonna be right and she was saying we will see communities like hustle is being targeted again. I happened when the taliban were running afghanistan. That always phone bill because they are Islam and so. I think no it won't change the cia making more difficult embarrassing. I think. change. Nancy what are we hearing from other members of the international community about all of this apart from the us. So broadly speaking what we're hearing is required. You know when you're thirty. Some partners plus that are in afghanistan and each have their own logistical and practical challenges in terms of leaving the country. And so we've primarily heard is a plea for more time and more resources Take it out in a way that works for those those coalition partners. Their thing we've heard is some people who had vowed to stay past. The coalition presence like turkey have now expressed concerns about that. And that's a real problem because they secure the airport. And if the airports not secured it might make it harder for diplomats and others to say at their respective embassies without security at the airport. The other thing that we're seeing is that the. Us has been up until this point unable to say what it's post presence in afghanistan plan. Looks like what they call over hisen in. We still don't know if and where. Us troops at stayed nearby at what point. Us forces intervene. And so it's not just that there's a withdrawal happening very quickly. But there's a lot of uncertainty about what the post period looks like an how the coalition plans to support the government in kabul in the us a major ransomware attack shut down a pipeline supplying gas too much of the east coast. According to bloomberg the company paid nearly five million dollars in ransom to unknown hacker. Group called dark side based in russia or east europe. Chris crabs who used to head up the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency told. Cnn that all of us should take what happened seriously. I think it goes without question that this is the most disruptive cyber attack on us energy infrastructure in history I think more than anything. My hope is that this is that final wake-up call that ransomware is a national security threat. And that this administration Take strong action against ransomware crews. Nancy what does the success of this attack. Say about the state of our national security It says that these are going to keep happening because you know. I think a lot of people aren't aware the prevalence of ransomware but it happens all the time and the reason and it's become more likely to happen. Someone argue even in the last year with people working remotely with crypto currency as an option for payment and limiting law enforcement's ability than monitor how money flows with a insurance companies up for these companies offering protection against these type of attacks. Were seeing them more often to give you a sense The fbi reported twenty five hundred such instances that they know of in the last year. That's up sixty six percent since twenty nine thousand nine hundred and so. The question becomes then as chris reference. How do you prevent it. The challenges you know companies are here to make business decisions not national security decisions and until they're incentivized to put in protections upfront for these kinds of attacks. I think it becomes harder to prevent them now. The colonial pipeline for example isn't going to pay a fine for not having the property security measures in place despite how disruptive it was if government does that and puts those policies in place. A critic would argue that. That's a lot of government intervention and and private enterprise and private operations. And so that's the conundrum. I think that we find ourselves in something. That's more likely more more threatening Has a real potential to affect national security and yet the companies themselves are not in the business of protecting national security and until they have an incentive to to to prevent against these tax. Because it's expensive to do up front right now for them financially. It's okay to pay to have an insurance company pay Or they're not hurting financially because of these so I think this is raised the awareness and the of the ability these groups and the impact they can have the question now becomes. Does it lead to real policy. Changes going forward and paul is the us now. A cautionary tale for other countries. Looking at what happened to us this week. Absolutely i think what we've seen is the they won't company causing chaos across east of america difficult just gas Gas prices you could shut hospitals. You could shut down critical electricity supplies. You could shut down nuclear power stations. I mean that's the real worry here. Is that these people thought being successful and there is some concern that these are criminal gangs nation-states hiding behind the idea of just being criminal gang to themselves. Upset undermine western economies and people's faith in western mcconnell. Some massive massive. And we've seen things before we see the north koreans hacking into american companies. Didn't even like moving Yet this is a wakeup call for everyone around the world. But he's a really really difficult to legislate full. Because you end up you know perhaps to throwing out the baby with the boss and how you walk that fine line between freedom to act as a business and protecting the nation state is a difficult question. That's paul danaher. Washington bureau chief for the bbc. Nancy yousef and national security correspondent for the wall street journal and laura seligman who covers the pentagon for politico is also with us laura. I wonder if you could elaborate a little bit on some reporting you publish this week. That takes us back a few years to condition. That became known as the havana syndrome. Yes absolutely so. This phenomenon actually is much more widespread than we had previously understood affecting dozens of. Us government personnel across agencies and around the world Recent investigations have found additional incidents. We reported on one in miami one on a national security staffer outside a trader joe's in northern virginia. Another staffer walking to his car on the ellipse near the white house and another in london and in addition to many many more and as way of background this this like you said goes back to the havana syndrome. Intra incidents of two thousand sixteen. So after that happened the trump administration was initially accused of not taking this problem seriously. Enough of not doing enough to help the victims. Get the access to the care. They needed so the investigation into this kind of sort of devolved a in Up in those intervening years and then in late two thousand nineteen early twenty twenty the pentagon and then later the sc reopen this effort to get to the bottom of the problem since they were seeing more of the attacks and like. I said i found many more than they expected. Now it's important. It's important to note here that they haven't actually found a smoking gun linking these incidents to any particular cause or state actor however many at the pentagon believed the most likely culprit is the russian spy unit the gru. Because we know they have studied this technology and they are present in all the locations where these incidents have been reported lord lawmakers telling you about this issue so lawmakers have recently gotten several briefings from the biden administration both the dod and the director of national intelligence and wild. They understand they're being kept in the loop and it's very difficult to attribute these attacks right now. They are also calling for more action. Particularly a tender marco rubio of florida. They say they wanna see more. They want to see the government doing more to cover the cost and the care for these victims and they want to see them identifying the culprit and really getting to the bottom of this. Unfortunately they're saying this is. This is too little too late right now. This administration and the previous administration has failed for years to sufficiently address these growing tax. So they're now pushing the new the administration to really get to the bottom of the problem and provide proper care for the victims. Nancy a word to about your scoop this week about an issue that the pentagon has been told to make more of a priority an overhaul of the military justice system. That's right you know for the past decade Christian jones brand has been trying to get The pentagon to be more aggressive in combatting sexual harassment and assault within its ranks and those numbers have largely stayed constant throughout that period. And but this year something different happened that that there's been more support for taking some of the prosecution of those cases out of commanders hands and and this week Matt bill garnered the support of sixty one senators and extraordinarily display bipartisanship and what the legislation says is any felonies like because we don't use the term felony and ucla than the military justice system would now be prosecuted by sort of independent prosecutors rather than staying and commanders hands. And it's it's a huge change because you know up until this point commanders really had say over what cases brought forward now. critics would argue that it brings. Its own set of problems at once. You take the commander's ability to to to push for such cases. You're undermining that person's authority to sort of set the tone in their unit and a judge advocate which is much like a military prosecutor often goes for cases that are most likely to lead to conviction rather than a commander who might bring forward a case to set an example or signal to the unit. What is tolerable. And what is not tolerable. The other challenges one way to combat sexual harassment and assault in the military is to have commanders in charge and own the instances of those cases in the units. And once you remove that out of the chain of command They somehow are can be can take only part ownership of these cases but i think it really speaks to a military. That in some ways has lost the faith of the hill and its ability to combat this issue and and should go forward it would be much like the model that we see in many european militaries where such cases are indeed taken out of commanders hands. Now those who are most post would say that if we don't trust commanders to to deal with these kinds of serious issues within your units. Why should we trust them to. Then be in charge of deploying other sons other american sons and daughters into harm's way nancy. I was going to ask you about that. How much of this is modeling after other militaries outside the us. And how they handle this. I think the example of other militaries really gave an opening for jill. Lebron others to say this is not going to fundamentally hurt. The military as the as the pentagon has argued for years. There's there's precedence out there. These armies having fallen apart because their commanders don't have control of of each case and so it's really created that that opening for them to make that that argument and i think that's sort of the biggest impact of it and that's where in that's where you're seeing the conversation go from here. Yeah i mean more than anything. You're seeing in pentagon starting to realize that it despite its creed in its own independent review commission to look at these issues and come up with the social solutions. Congress is no longer gonna leave that decision in the pentagon hands and so They're moving it outside of their jurisdiction it the the only comparable issue that i've seen him within the military in terms of combating social issues. That i think is relevant. Here is Domestic violence the there was a time in the military wasn't taken seriously. Now it is and it took them about fifteen years to get to that point. They're more than a decade and they haven't done so so the question becomes. Do you continue to give the military time to kind of come up with a way to treat these issues. The way the public sees that they believe that they should be or do you say it's now up to us to sort of set the standard and signal to the military. That if you're not gonna deal with these issues in a prompt manner we will. Let's turn to iran in the united states where things are heating up this week you a. Us coastguard fired thirty warning shots at iranian boats in the straits of hormuz guys. Turn down baphuon turning the players to wcm run by That sound from video posted from us naval forces central command fifth fleet. Their twitter account laura. What were they worried about. So the concern here is that you have these multiple. Rg navy fast. Boats that are basically swarming the us navy boats here. They're conducting as they call it safe in on professional maneuvers in the strait of her moos. They're worried about some kind of attack. Some kind of incident happening so this is actually the second time in the last couple of weeks that the coast guard the navy and the navy had fired warning shots against a such a group of these urgency navy fast boats and this is actually these last few weeks. This is the first time that anything like this. The warning shots in particular has happened in nearly four years The last time i believe was july twenty seventeen so clearly. Tensions in the region are rising again and the energy see is becoming more bold now. The context here is that this comes as biden. Officials are still trying to negotiate a return to the twenty fifteen iran nuclear deal that president former president trump pulled out of in two thousand eighteen so negotiations initially made progress earlier. This year with indirect talks conducted through intermediaries but there are still major major hurdles. Ron is insisting on the lifting of all sanctions while the biden team is insisting that iran disables it's new advanced centrifuges which enrich uranium much faster than the old systems do so this is all tied to the negotiations on the iran. Nuclear deal now and in the meantime iran is using its clout in the region to harass boats in the strait of news and also to cause problems in the middle east by for example attacking basis in in iraq and endangering american and other troops and personnel. There paul is the coast guard. Is there to begin with really important. Shipping merged and if you took it off and it has a massive impact on the whole world so in america has been looking after this stretch to an awful long time and iran knows if he wants to kind of tweak. The tail delighted. You like this is how to do it. I'm you know. America always looks back and thinks of what happened with the the ss cold food up alongside blow up so you have to take. Even small. Birds are coming near the actual ships seriously. Because you just don't know what they could do but yeah. This is the basically trying to annoy. America reminding america that he's still that reminding america wants to talk to them and if they don't talk to them and they're can be an fooling their side. Just south of there in the north arabian sea. The us navy said it. Seized a massive number of weapons often unregistered ship. Nancy is that another reason why the. Us are why did the navy take those weapons so it was just essentially doing an idea. Check if you'll on this ship that that was stateless and they get on there and they find dozens of russian made anti-tank guided missiles chinese assault rifles. Rpg's machine guns. I mean to see this scope of weaponry that they found sort of laid out on the deck of the monterey was just astounding and us officials have said reportedly that they believe iran was behind this and this is all of the bid to get weapons to To yemen where there is a sectarian conflict. Play now on. And so. I think it was another example of the thorn of iran in in in america side during these ongoing talks a reminder that that of their message that we are here and we have leverage As he's talks were going on and that despite the international community effort to stop the shipment of these weapons there are huge caches of weapons. Actually actually getting through. Imagine how many haven't haven't been caught and and just the size of it i think was really really breathtaking. We'll have to leave it there. My thanks to nancy yousef nancy rights on national security. She's correspondent for the wall street journal. I wanna think laura seligman for being with us as well. She covers the pentagon for politico. And paul danaher washington bureau chief for the bbc also the author of the book the new middle east the world after the arab spring. Thank you for being with us. One a senior producer has jonquil anhil page. Osborne is our managing producer. Are sound engineer is designer jake cherry. Barb engano produces our podcast. This program comes to you from w. amu part of american university in washington distributed by npr. I'm nylon buddha of axios. Gen white is back on monday. Have a great weekend. this is one one. A senior producer is jungle in hill. Page osborne is. Our managing producer are lead audio engineer and sound designer. Is jake cherry. Barb on kiono produces our podcast. This program comes to you from w. amu part of american university in washington distributed by npr. I'm nyla boudou gen white boob axios. This is one this message comes from. Npr sponsor ford the all electric mustang mach e and a twelve foot rocket. Take off the rocket launches up into the atmosphere while the all electric pony takes off toward the horizon at full speed visit for dot com for a new perspective on range.
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"You're listening to radio telling the untold will come to the open university of the airwaves with george galloway. Only on sputnik radio. Well as you'd expect the full is going like a train or thousand one hundred and sixty nine votes in so far. And here's the result. So far who's to blame for the war in gaza amass thirty-six percent be netanyahu thirty eight percent. See the us and britain twenty six percent. You can vote on my twitter feed now it is sixteen years ago exactly no. It doesn't seem possible that i was suddenly aware that not Committee in the united states senate had found me guilty of receiving millions of dollars from the iraqi government as was of saddam hussein. They found me guilty without a single telephone. Call to tell me. My trial was happening without a single letter. Even though i was a member of parliament at the time. I remind you know a single email. Email's existed even back then with our any communication whatsoever. I was suddenly informed that i'd be on trial by the us and had been found guilty. I immediately through diplomatic channels and by public proclamation demanded the right to be held. Ah by the people who found me guilty albeit had found me guilty and pausing only to collect my toothbrush. I set sail for the united states of america. And what has been so far at least my finest hour. It has been watched by uncountable numbers of millions of people all over the world. Indeed it was watched live on television in many countries in the world including our own. It must've seemed like a good idea at the time for the accusers. But it didn't take long for those accusers to wish that they had not tangled with me or at least not allowed me to defend myself albeit belatedly because as i said and some people pay me some people i'm the mother in the. Us senate business people for their middle managers courses and so on they the they say i was a boxer when i was young and i always knew the moment when my opponent no longer wished to be there a light would die in the eyes and wish that the towel might come flying in. I should say. I myself have been on the receiving end of that kind of beating several times. Also but i knew it when i saw it in the eyes of the senator. Norman coleman ex senator. Norman coleman very quickly in the course of these proceedings. I could see that. He has a high flying politician. That day lee start was how he started that day. A man who wanted to be. The republican party's nominee for president of the united states. After george w bush he ended. That session are very diminished political. Figure but i saw quite quickly in has is a feeling of whose idea was this. I think in the words of george w bush. We could say that they miss under estimated me for me. Some people thought. I was brave to go there. Some people thought i was foolish to go there. But i had absolutely nothing to be afraid of. I was brimming with the truth. And i think that showed in the performance without notes without cue cards without teleprompters auto coups just sheer brimming could take a look at the video. And then i'll show you something you've never seen before indeed. Even i hadn't seen before this is me at the. Us senate this week. Sixteen years ago is a proven fact. It's a proven fact that these forged documents existed and were being circulated amongst right wing newspapers in baghdad and around the world in the media aftermath of the fall of the iraqi regime. Now senator. I gave my heart and soul to oppose the policy. That you promoted. I gave my political. Life's blood to try to stop the mass killing of iraqis by the sanctions on iraq. Which killed a million iraqis most of them children of them before they even knew that they were iraqis but they died for no other reason other than that they were iraqis with the misfortune to be born. At that time. I gave my heart and soul to stop you committing the disaster that you did commit in invading iraq and i told the world that your case for the war was a pack of lies. I told the world that iraq contrary to your claims did not have weapons of mass destruction. I told the world contrary to your claims that iraq had no connection to al qaeda. I told the world contrary to your claims that iraq had no connection to the atrocity on nine eleven two thousand and one. I told the world contrary to your claims that the iraqi people would resist a british and american invasion of their country and that the fall of baghdad would not be the beginning of the end but merely at the end of the beginning. Senator in everything. I said about iraq. I turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong. And one hundred thousand people have paid with life's sixteen hundred of them. American soldiers sent to the debts on a pack of lies. Fifteen thousand of them wounded many of them disabled forever on a pack of lies now may have seen the eagle-eyed amongst you the celebrated filmmaker julian cole behind me. You may have seen these camera. The red light showing you that the camera was rolling nominee. People were aware that julian had been with me from very morning from the media frenzy outside my then apartment in cheshire street in london's east end where i was the member of parliament for bethnal green bowl. He was with me through the airport on the aeroplane in the slum hotel on on pennsylvania avenue. don't be confused wasn't the porsche and pennsylvania avenue it was the utterly impoverished rat infested end. The owner of the hotel told us although there was a shop across the road. It was not safe to go over to buy anything a slum hotel where when i tried to flush the toilet the toilet overflowed with the influence of centuries appeared never stopped imagine a metaphor and never ending stream of other people's effluent from years gone by poured across the bathroom floor and across the bedroom floor and driving me in the end out of the door of the hotel room. I don't know if julia filmed about see of excrement. If he did wouldn't be nice to show it to you anyway but here is some of the never before seen footage shot by julian co edited by him and we'll be talking to the man himself very very shortly. Let's take a quick look the behind the scenes of my trip to washington the latino. You know foul one said one should never entered the house of commons jimbo. Without at least two verbal donates. Ready to throw. I can assure you have at least two hundred ready to throw tomorrow in front of the senate. What's the committee. According to say i've got a number of I think paul glints to make about process onto the content of schoolboy dossier which pasta offers an investigation valued gathering. sightsee tomorrow. Think it'll be quite an important parliamentary occasion. I really feel that Frizz from the democratic convention in chicago in nineteen sixty eight. the whole world is watching and I think that's That's a good good place to be Because we have a lot to say and we don't often get the chance to see. It live on television judy trumping. I never feel excited. Just absolutely determined told you. Many times in this epic kilometers has been turned my mind to steal a dictatorship as you very well know mr hit gyms because i used to talk to you in palestine when they were dictating to the occupied palestinian people general audio shut on his people that he occupies and the martyrs of the palestinians. The suicide bombers not as you call him which saddam hussein painful and you praised saddam hussein for paying for. The suicide isn't that isn't that a question you. I have question before these people civil talk. I i have a question before. This is Drink soaked former trump's guy british your in j. now you see to please all of course saddam hussein or anybody else in iraq number paid me one thin dime about the media outfits alleged that he had had to pay me millions in one case of the daily telegraph alone allegations to the effect cost them two point. Three million pounds in damages. Alas most of it went to the lawyers. Very little of it went to me. None of it went to the man who took these extraordinary films as i see is from the east end of london. I haven't seen them for many years. But he is one of the best filmmakers that i have ever come across hope. He joins me now. He is of course julian call julian. It's very nice to see you again. You're looking well. I must say connect with you again. George yes it is time indeed done looking at the food. I think both are looking better now than we were. then i'm indeed done looking at the food edge. I think both of us are looking better now than we were then. I don't know what that says. Just tell us how you found yourself in the hot seat with me. Well i've been filming you. Well first of all jobs. I just want to say. It's it's great to be remembering good. Happy happy at policy in this terrible time in the moment. So i just wanna say my heart's in solidarity of for the people in gaza right now and yes. It's it's some it's quite to be remembering. These goodall dies sir. Just point to begin with but yeah it started filming you and your incredible election campaign here in east london some months before that and your extraordinary victory historic victory air in the in the constituency of bow and bethnal green is. It was not an It i was just ten days. I think after your great victory that you suddenly there in front of the senate committee and it always struck me as being quite extraordinary coincidence that this senate committee report just sort of suddenly appeared at the very moment that you just been elected so but I had i was no stranger having followed year round on that amazing election campaign to your archery skills but i had no idea what what you gonna do in front of the senate senate was really an extraordinary occasion as you sign. You had not noticed in front of you and i was just. I was just astounded at the You'll archery skills. And you just flatten them. All of the senators lined up in front of you like kind of guilty schoolboys. Hold up in front of the ed nostra. Something they they didn't know where to look at. What say thank you kind of you to say. So your call the slum odell that i recall now so colorfully i do indeed. I managed to avoid the effluence. I think i didn't match footage of that oppression much. But i do and i mean. I sort of traveled in the states. Got a lot that although never been to washington and i have to say it was it it sort of you know the scales kind of dropped from my is ready in terms of being the in in the capital of this The heart of the out of the empire exactly and and the and the concierge in hotel telling me that i couldn't walk across the strait by a packet of cigarettes. In fact i did. And i went into the shop and it was There was a kind of passback screen and he handed me the cigarette through the through the little hole in i handed through the monday. And just you know. What kind of nation is this where it's not even safe to walk. The streets of the capital city out of the shop was four apache really iron bars and perspex screens and and so on and obviously we must have gotten a taxi because you were filming in the taxi when we arrived there. Of course the world's breasts were assembling and the now deceased figure of christopher hitchens was first up for innocence. I warmed up on him. He was like my my punchbag to warm up before going in to meet his master's for those of us who remember the great days of christopher hitchens is quite extraordinary to see him fallen amongst the bush heights and the supporters of a war. That now has no friends anywhere in the world. Yes yes well. The pugilist analogies were were flying and Yeah i think it was a good few kind of sparring rounds will move up Out that way. But the big fight. And i think it was a cnn. Reporter afterwards said something about is. His of verdict was galloway knockout. Before round five. I think was his conclusion of the. That's a good one but the best headline was as the best headlines often are. I'm afraid in the new york post which said brit fries senators in oil. Yeah priceless that. One from from earned newspaper. That was exactly something jillian. And what we're going to. Shouldn't we make a movie. Maybe for the twentieth anniversary. Or you waiting hoping i'm going to pass before you and your bigger price. What why are we only seeing this footage. Now no certainly not while. It has a long than sort of check. It history this this film. It was originally commissioned while after after retracted was just after the your parents in front of the senate that the baby safe finally got around making a decision about whether they wanted to commission a movie and and of course after yo- performance in front of that senate committee they decided yes they definitely had to commission the fell but then proceeded to renege on on our agreement and Sorta bully cows may into making a film which was basically would What was not the film that i was intending to mike and so i had to tell them no way and walked away from it and Well if as anybody documentary editors out that wanna get the rotation to feature documentary getting touched definitely duly in the film game know you had the hotel and enjoyed and prosper. The you still making movies. I am on a on a small-scale church. Yes yes still in the still still working away so can follow you. Think on twitter. I hadn't realized your on twitter. So what's your twitter handle. Julian pico julian pico. Everyone should follow julian. Remarkable man are marketable filmmaker and shared with me and the editor of this very shore. Run mci one of the most remarkable days in recent anyway british political history. Julian thank you. God bless you. I remember our time together. Always and forever julian cole. Who took a much more remarkable footage. How's the poll by goodness. Five thousand people have voted on the poor. That's a record. Surely chris hamas are blamed by thirty six percent of u. Netanyahu is blamed by thirty nine percent of you and the us and britain are blamed by twenty five percent of the telegraph pole. As sometimes is the case is very different. That's the twitter poll. The telegram poll. Is this seventeen percent of you. Blame hamas thirty seven percent blame netanyahu staggering forty six percent. Blame the us and the united kingdom. We've got a call on gaza from rose in philadelphia. Who could resist it. Rose welcome to the show mr galloway. Can you hear me pay. Yes a little ikue. But i can't hear you. Yes sorry yes well that's better. You don't even know you don't even know where to start. I'd like to begin by condemning. The state of israel for its murder for its genocide for its theft and i would also like to condemn everybody complicit Not only the west. Who are of course the very first supporters israel but the other arab leaders have joined them and they all deserve a great great punishment. Someday of course Eat mubarak to everybody watching. Although it is not as mubarak to the children of stuff as you described as we saw the video of the young child the girl and all the other word heartbreaking heart testimony. I have met goes before. At the end of previous savage bombardments even more savage actually than this one so far has been in which many many thousands of people died. There's a staggering percentage of the dead the world children on this occasion indeed on all occasions fully one third of the people who've been killed in the last six days our children and yet possible to find people who blamed the victims rather than the perpetrators. Is it true in philadelphia also. Yes one one hundred percent although we did have a big demonstration philadelphia yesterday. But i'm proud to have And yes the children of gaza are seen as less worthy the children of israel children of a lesser cheaper children who whose blood is less precious than others absolutely absolutely and also it's I just wanna talk about some Other palestinian protests going on around the world even as far as romania and serbia although in france they have been violently suppressed and in italy although they have gone forward last week some members that the italian government brought on this big fancy podium in rome to show solidarity with israel and the quote unquote teeth in jerusalem. Well they shouldn't be standing on a podium in rome. They should be on their hands and knees in gaza before the palestinians mothers fathers widows orphans and spike bedford forgiveness although they deserve it but they should be on an before them. I asked the. I asked the medical students. Noor let me ask. You also wrote one of the reasons why this subject has always occupied a special place in. My work is because the united kingdom is the author of this disaster for the reasons. I m braided out. But one of the reasons why should be a matter of great importance in the united states. Is that now. None of this could happen without the taxes. Billions of dollars worth of taxes of the united states government and the endless diplomatic and political protection afforded by successive. united states. government's. How i how do you feel about that. And how'd you think americans are feeling about it. Is there a change in the air. As real gold imply deadlier. There is definitely a change. I would say there's definitely being A solidarity between Among all the groups who fight for justice of all the good for people who have been violently impacted by the by the imperialist A way that the us government and the western european governance acts in that they leap they they murder people they feel their lives their futures their tools and they do it because they want from the treasures of land in palestine. The holy round number one holy sites on earth. it's it's virk is the most blessed thing can touch that of the hung around. And that's why. They wanted an insane reason that they went to africa. Asia to to steal from those people and to this day punish their descendants. That's what we see going on rooms in philadelphia round of very very powerful. Thank you very much for making it. Let me give out the numbers again if you're in the uk and it's entirely free. It's four four eight zero eight one nine six five five two. And if you're in the us it's plus one eight four four nine four four double three double for toll free as they say in the united states absolutely free as we say here in the united kingdom. Dan says five years ago today. Fusilier lee bay was laid to rest. His name must never be forgotten. Indeed i mentioned earlier for those who have forgotten or never knew leary was a fusilier drama. Both a young soldier who was driven down in the streets of south london in broad daylight. And i don't want to go into too many details. But-but chart in plain sight i to islam assed fanatic extremists who blamed the war on iraq but in fact their hearts were filled with evil and the evil mother of lee. Rigby shoot. never be forgotten. Autom- says we have a problem on facebook instagram and even youtube all news or videos regarding palestine are automatically deleted some are edited and muted and shunts says all the streets leading to al shifa hospital in gaza. Have been bombed and i'll schieffer. Hospital is the largest and most important medical center in gaza. Ambulances cannot leave or enter it. this is a war crime. Indeed one of many such war crimes and mud's says. I'm not going to read the first part. God bless you. George galloway for shedding light and defending the oppressed and michael says we need to let the american taxpayers know that their money is used to kill children and innocent people. James says netanyahu could stop it. If he wanted over the years he has had enough political experience to understand the situation yet. His tactics are always the same even though he knows they will not walk. He must just hate. Palestinians and david says how does apportioning blame. Stop the deaths. How does apportioning blame. Help resolve anything. Give me a call david. I'd love to hear your argument. You know the numbers there on the screen. I do hope you'll call at nine. Says banks to blame without banks. Nobody would have money to buy weapons and much much more where that came from but we have another call from size in california on the subject of gaza size. Welcome to the show. Say your piece. My friend you being on the show. Can you hear me all right very clearly. Thank you I was i mean. I'm a big fan of yours. I've been watching you for a long time. And i know you brought up this that you've visited gaza and we were You know an mp. Joe what yeah so my question to you was like what do you think is a resolution for this conflict. That's been going on for like i don't know sixty seventy years. Since israel was formed a basis on the united nations. And you know britain So is there like a concrete resolution where a lives can still be saved and not lost merely on the basis of you know fighting for land. And i believe partly religion So yeah so what is your i. I don't think it is really religion. It's about the land it's about control and serenity over it the solution we'll have to be found by the people of israel and palestine. No one else can justifiably prescribe those. I'm more concerned right now. This minute in getting a ceasefire not because a ceasefire will solve the problem. it will only erupt. Lay talk again. But i want to stay. Stop the slaughter of children of the same age as my own. I want to stop the blood from flowing. And i want people are gently then to begin the discussion. You're asking me to have. I spent the best years of my life as conrad of president out of god. Rest his soul. He persuaded me that the oslo agreement the two state solution was the way to go but thirty years on more than the oslo agreement is utterly bereft destroyed. The land that the palestinian state was to be created on has all gone virtually every square mile of it has gone has been paved over with illegal settlements and illegal highways. Changing the demography and topography of the occupied territories absolutely illegal on dr international law you are expressly forbidden not to you are. Forbidden from bringing in settlers into occupied land has been seized in war. It's there in very large letters completely illegal to bring settlers in to territory is militarily occupied. It's absolutely illegal to change the topography of the area by building so-called settlements which are in fact large towns glittering and beautiful but disfiguring the land. That has been stolen so the two state solution is dead mountain view. It's not the view of our teammates. Not the view of sputnik. It's not the view of anybody except me as you ask is now. The only solution is for one state of israel. Palestine israel hyphen palestine. Jews muslims and christians live as equal citizens under the law a law which would have to guarantee the religious freedoms on character off the three monotheistic faiths which lived there. I'm not amongst those who calls for would be preposterous and ridiculous anyway. But i don't call for it. I don't believe in it For the israelis to go home first of all the territory there in is their home that were bondar and they have acquired national rights by having been born there. They are not people who've just arrived can go back somewhere amongst those who advocates that another. Is there any possibility of that happening. So that the best solution would be to give the vote to the millions of palestinians who are living under israeli rule and have been living under israeli rule from one thousand nine hundred sixty seven if you have millions of people living under your law since one thousand nine hundred sixty seven but you do not give them a vote and equal rights with the others are then that's why you get called an apartheid state. There is no question and nelson mandela said saw archbishop tutu said so all of the experts about apartheid said so that's why you get called an apartheid state and no decent israeli is comfortable with that appalachian but is an absolute description of a society in which you have a different rights less rights than others living under of that state because of who you are the case of south africa. Because you're black in the of israel because you are not an israeli but you are living endlessly all of your life and all of the life that you can possibly imagine into the future. you'll be living under. Israeli law is really forced. But you have no vote and you have no equal rights so That is my view. You can take it or leave. It and others can win on. The numbers are on the screen periodically size in california. Thank you for your call me. Take a break. And then we've got bob dylan. Eight with bo bradshaw. One of my favorite authors. Give me sixty seconds once you radio. Sputnik we are above all the latest developments and we don't take sides radio sputnik telling the untold know how international fichus fit into local ones and how local issues fit into international ones with the historical context to tie them together. We're bringing to all by any means. Necessary tune weekdays from two to four pm eastern standard. Time to hear me. Jackie longmont alongside my co host. Sean glassman by any means necessary. Your guide to connecting the social political and economic movements shaping the world around. You're listening to radio sputnik the mother of all talk shows join our faculty of legends contributors and callers. Everyone is welcome now. The poll is going like a train. Still well over. Five thousand votes are in but you can still vote on my twitter feed. Now the run. Many bigger fans of bob dylan then me except perhaps my next guest he. Bill bradshaw is a journalist and author But he wrote a book bob dylan at the isle of wight festival nineteen sixty nine which caught my attention sometime. And he was kind enough to appear on put mic with us to discuss that. Neither bill nora are remotely approaching eighty years old. But bob dylan is celebrating his eightieth birthday. How has it. Happened bill bradshaw. How did this young troubadour that we saw burst on the scene already. A legend in the very early nineteen sixties in new york city. How come he reached eighty. And how come is still going. It could be true kind of george. How do it copy through the he. One of his grit. Psalms is forever. Young and bob dylan will be forever young. I think full so many of us and he's reaching the milestone on the twenty fourth. I think it is lots of was already in the public prints and meteor about him. But i think the great thing about bob dylan is that he confounds that. That great age jill jr because he is as relevant in many ways today as he was back in the mid sixties when something happened to him In the mid sixties that would lead him to the book that you mentioned that i wrote about would lead into blighty to england in the isle of wight because he had a crush on his motorbike pretty critical time during his development as a major artist he cracked a bone in his back and he was already feeling pretty wretched about how he was being perceived by his critics because he'd gone electric banned the whole which would become the. That's what they changed that name to change the shape and the face of rock and roll Without bob dylan the boundary wouldn't have been probably creamed. The beatles wouldn't have developed the way they developed the beach boys wouldn't have developed the way they developed and he decided to take time out and believe it or not. George know you're a student so he will be this. It was h. He is following his very last gig in nineteen sixty six which was in england at the albert whole. He then went home. Dot motorcycle crash in july of sixty six cancelled. His gigs didn't play or didn't go. Let's put it this way. Didn't go on another tour with the band for another eight years. On the only interlude in that eight baron years at live performances by wasn't close we code. Coding tremendous stuff in that period of his somewhat says. Very best yeah His only live appearance in that age barren period Was in england at the light on is pretty remarkable. Unbelievable built of all the places of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world. He not pitched up. The isle of white has the place ever recovered. I don't think it's i don't think wants to recover now at the time. It seemed would never recover because the festival actually being born year before in nineteen sixty much smaller affair of the first one when Jefferson airplane where the whether big drill one day festival but the three young brothers from the island bafokeng Ronnie and bill decided to really stick their necks out then nothing. They had no money. They had no backing really but they decided to write to booked on time how to manage is both lopping. Albert grossman nero to his management. And said. look how about this. Bob dylan come over here. We will give him a fumble holiday. We'll put him on this new spanking brand new line. Qe till he can bring his wife and children but put him in a luxury farmhouse We just wanted to come in plan. How good time and give us a a really good drill on. Something clicked their with both dylan on his management are the light that idea uncritically particularly he was well and truly brassed off with the Rumblings of a big festival at woodstock which is where bob dylan lived in the what was called. The woodstock festival was a bat staged about an hour's drive away at bethel woods but they gave it the name woodstock while actually lived in woodstock and he did not like the idea that he was almost being forced to accept the invitation. To come out and play out woodstock. He valued his privacy zero. Well know in. George didn't fonsi adult denied the fact that that young fans were getting into his Getting into his house and breaking in and he just wanted out of that he said at the time patty enough. I just wanted to get out of here. It's all bullshit. You pardon my french and So he accepted this extraordinary offer and then the folk brothers tied up the contract on july the twenty fifth. They had five weeks. George can you imagine this in the day. Before the before social made any electronic transfers everything was on the cashel checks. They had five weeks to organize the wine festival. But but dylan having agreed and signed his contract. On the twenty fifth of july he was booked to play on opus. The surfaced quite extraordinary and somehow they pulled it off. And i say talk about shooting for the moon. I mean three brothers in the alawite think. Let's invite bob dylan. I mean it's the stuff of late night carousing in the morning. you realize. Actually that wasn't such a good idea and yeah it became absolutely seminal in the history of just of the isle of wight of music festivals in this country is that the bar to put into context the year before the first island festival with jefferson airplane. They have ten thousand fans there. There was jefferson at planned the move toronto sorts rex fep a convention. Reasonable recliner the following. Year with bob dylan on the who the moody blues and free and the salt line. Padilla was the big drought. They had one hundred fifty thousand people. George and that was a time when the island's population was about one hundred and twenty five thousand. There was a strap that went round on some of the advertising help sink help dylan sink the island light with a hundred and fifty thousand people that that pretty much did and the the great burgers of the wide. The old colonel blimps and the establishment. They didn't know what it at them. And dylan and the island widened. Sixty nine set the ball reading that followed glastonbury and all the rest of it but the following year. Because it had been such a massive success with dylan blue upon when when the invited hendricks and nine hundred seventy and they attack. If a hundred and fifty thousand was improbable that had what's been described. As a arrest admitted a crowd between full hundred and six hundred thousand the nineteen seventy hendrix. And of course not led to the whole thing being put into hibernation for the next thirty is unbelievable story on brilliantly. Told in in your book which out of the time Which was a bob dylan at the isle of wight festival nineteen sixty nine. Just what it says on the tin. It's remarkable story. Finally bill bob finished yet. I've just in the last couple of weeks. I've been playing his latest album. Our said lost but it will never be safe to say lost his latest album particularly the epic track which takes us through the history of in the sixties and a reduced me to tears. It was a powerful beyond words eighty. He's still doing it bill. That's what i sense is still relevant. You're talking rough and rowdy ways. The lao donna came out just about this time last year and it went straight into billboard chart at number two george and that says something about a optogenetics knowing. That's quite remarkable. he's that relevant. And everybody you know. From springsteen downwards received this album with some rain show that the could not present enough and it is a significant album in a guy. Who's seventy nine when it came out. And he is still going unease still creating grid songs and he is the only artist to have had a top forty charting album in seven successive decades. Which you're just talking about. Put him into that. Well bill bill. Let's hope the ami are still producing. Great walk the joy of eighty. Thanks very much indeed for joining us. Let's take a quick call before the news and in stafford in england on gaza and welcome. Hello status. I think people already covered. I wanted to say because you've done nothing exactly. What all of the other news that have done. You and your Various gas to say no. All of this is israel's fault but the news is like to say. Oh no this all the palestinians full but nobody's sitting there and saying what are we going to stop this from happening now. You say it's the people in the area to You know come to the degree but if you think this is a divorcing couple who hate each other now The fighting like my really good rebuttal. It takes a cool to step in stopping. Oh he's guessing dot you'll guessing the if someone doesn't set in i'm sort of create a everybody is going to be happy with his but be able to live with then was still we didn't we didn't do the of course with the oslo agreement and it was signed with great panoply on the white house lawn but israel never implemented it so it never happened george always to give you a magic college now not from and say right. How would you saw this mess. If you want to divide israel westbound between report the against them into some so tune if coalition or separate timing claims all whatever so that they could only think piece what would your should be because dried I tried to describe it. Let me be more specific. I believe that it first of all entirety of israel. Palestine is smaller than one single park in south africa. The kruger national park is bigger than the entire israel-palestine territory from the jordan river to the mediterranean sea. So we're talking about an exceedingly small piece of land. I supported the partition of the country into a palestinian state and the state of israel. I supported that but it is no longer on the table. First of all it never happened in thirty years. It's not going to happen. And in any case once you have paved of the area the is supposed to be the palestinian state with settlements which are towns of thousands of people once you have demolished and ethnic cleansed the eastern part of jerusalem so that it cannot be the capital of the palestinians envisaged by oslo. Then partition is no longer feasible. And therefore i've fall back on the democratic solution of a single state of israel palestinian. After all that's what we would support anywhere else. You're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio now. Man newsfeed dot com. This stream is by advertisers and contributions by you. Follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. Let up in the conflict. I'm joe chiro fox news. The number of international calls for a ceasefire is growing as a conflict in israel and gaza. Both sides are defending their attacks israeli ambassador to the un gala. Earn any attempt to compare israel and hamas is factually legally and morally wrong hamas targets civilians. Israel gets terrorists. Israeli airstrikes gaza city today flatten three buildings and killed more than forty people. There appears to be much confusion on. Went to where mask after new. Cdc guidance last week the cdc maintains that people who are fully vaccinated can shed their masks. It's director dr rochelle. Walinsky said on fox news sunday. There are still guidelines for those who haven't gotten a vaccine dose safe. Please go get vaccinated or continue to wear your masks doctor. Will linski says she trusts that. People will be truthful to protect others. The honor system has to be honest yourself. She says anywhere from a million and a half to two million people are still getting shots every day. Fox's grenell scott. The cyberattack closure of the colonial pipeline has reminded many critics of president biden's cancellation of the keystone excel pipeline. Senator john barossa on fox news sunday right now. We are using more oil from alaska from russia than we are. From alaska we need more pipelines. Many filling stations from washington dc to georgia's still have no gasoline even though the colonial pipeline is operational again a man has been arrested in dallas in connection with the murder of a four year. Old boy whose body was found in a street police found the body early yesterday and believe the boy was killed a couple of hours earlier. America is listening. Fox news missing tiger. That was seen roaming around. Houston has been found. The tiger was missing since last sunday after an off. Duty officer saw it in the middle of a residential street. Houston pd commander. Ron boras says tiger was always in the possession of the owner or friends of the owner was faster out a little bit but ultimately was at all times with her senior was commander. Boorda pointed out that it's illegal to have tiger and houston a dental workers facing charges after he allegedly placed cameras where they're not supposed to be an illinois. Dental hygienist is facing seventeen new charges of unauthorized video recording for allegedly placing cameras in the employee bathroom in december law firm filed lawsuits on behalf of the victims who say they were secretly videotaped by the hidden cameras at aspen. Dental clinic in crestwood twenty-six road armani alexander appeared in court. Friday a law firm says it seeking monetary damages because of the negligent actions of aspen dental adding that the victims hook their actions will change the culture of the clinic so that workplace safety is not sacrificed for productivity and profit. Mary core city fox news man who died in a car crash posted videos writing. And a tesla on autopilot. Fox's cell june grasso reports california highway authorities speculated. He may have been operating on autopilot at a turns out. The driver of a tesla involved in a fatal crash had posted social media videos of himself riding in the vehicle without his hands on the wheel or foot on the pedal thirty five year old. Stephen michael hendrickson was killed when his tesla hit an overturned semi on a freeway on may fifth about fifty miles east of los angeles. One video on his instagram account. Showed him riding in the driver's seat without his hands on the wheel or foot on the pedal as the tesla navigated freeway traffic but california highway patrol said. There's no final determination made as to what driving mode the tesla was in or if it was a contributing factor in the crash salary and grasso fox news until not again when your business strategy relies on mobile technology. The last thing you need is downtime. Downtime leads to loss. Productivity angry managers and unhappy customers more remote workers using more mobile devices means more risk for costly downtime and you can't constantly by ship and deploy new devices whenever they go down fortunately with sodhi. You can view the screen of any remote device whether it's across town or around the world. This lets you diagnose troubleshoot and resolve issues anytime anywhere. In minutes open a whiteboard session draw directly on the screen to guide the user through the issue instead of typing simply record audio and video of the call and attached to a support ticket minimize downtime. Maximize your business mobility visit saudi dot net slash fox for a free trial for fox news radio listeners. That's esotique dot net slash fox. Here's a look at weather from the heartland news feed weather center wednesday mostly sunny with a high near sixty one wednesday night clear with a low around thirty nine thursday sunny with a high near sixty five. That's the latest weather. Check out more news and weather on our website at heartland newsfeed dot com throw deals for international supplies. It said new mark. I emailed the health secretary of the twenty seventh of may last year detailing a proposal explaining he had links to well connected and powerful people in china but that it needed government help in finding deals than he's paper said. The department of health awarded one hundred and seventy eight million pounds contract from protective goggles to the firm on the i if g one of the most vaccinated countries in the world is experiencing get covid. Nineteen outbreak while other nations struggled to secure enough vaccines. The seychelles is in the enviable position. Having already fully immunized more sixty one point four percent of its population. But that hasn't been enough to stop the spread of covid over the past month case number have been rising in the indian ocean archipelago prompting authorities to impose restrictions in the country. Have ninety eight thousand. People data released on thursday shows that there are more than two thousand seven hundred active cases. The current active cases thirty three percents have been fully vaccinated experts and local officials. However say the seychelles. Outbreak isn't a sign. The vaccines are working. Police scotland said many more arrests will follow what it described as disgraceful as rangers fan celebrated in glasgow city centre. Three police officers were injured and twenty people arrested as crowds were dispersed g to rising disorder thousands of fans take into the streets after the rangers. First scottish premiership title win in a decade police broke up the crowds. After about five hours g to rising disorder with one officer suffering a series facial injury myanmar's military is entered a small town in western chin state which took up arms gates them three weeks ago. Activists from the volunteer defence force say they have retracted from in dot to spare the town further bombardment. Men is one of several towns where opponents have military have armed themselves to three weeks they have been fighting against local people armed mainly with homemade hunting guns and dozens of soldiers reported to have been killed. The rebel said six fighters had died. Nearly eight hundred people have died and mainly unarmed protests for coup which ousted the elected government. And finally it's a tale of two tigers the first retina a seventeen year old so much and tiger which lives at the sherpur wildlife park near cambridge in england. Because i saved and what's believed to be the first ever operation in its type in the world on a big cat. Staff noticed her left eye which had previously had a cataract. Removed was deteriora- takes corneille also diagnosed by specialist that surgeon. Dr david williams from the queen's veteran school hospital that the university of cambridge said after two months of careful monitoring he was delighted to be able to sign ratna off as fully healed and in houston texas. A young tiger was spotted roaming around before it was captured india. Nine month old tiger had been spotted last sunday in the west of the city and was nearly shot by an off duty. Deputy commander boorda said. It was not clear where the tiger had been in the week. Synthesizing the owner whose name he gave gear had bought. The animal. police said gear was not yet facing any criminal charges but he confirmed keeping an animal such as tiger within the city boundaries. Aids illegal and. That's your latest sputnik needs on jerry. You're listening to radio. Sputnik telling the untold. Welcome to the open university of the airwaves with george galloway. Only on sputnik radio. Some people can't live without and enemy. The ussr was the enemy. That side unlimited expenditure on weaponry and military confrontation. The cold war was an industry for legions off. Cold warriors in the media nakajima and think-tanks all over the world. And then after nine eleven the enemy was the other the muslim the muslim countries that had to be invaded one by one even though in invading them and toppling the leaders we were guaranteeing the rise and rise of the kind of fanatic extra modest islamic fundamentalism that we have seen now in country after country including even in the case of lee here on the streets of our own capital here in london and in the united states this fanatic islamist is now a thing directly as a result of the attacks on the other the enemy that we were told now rose like a phoenix from the ashes of the end of the cold war russia still an enemy for a lot of sheep even though russia is a normal capitalist country like ours so european country it's the biggest european country moscow is the biggest city in europe yet we are regularly invited to regard russia as the other as the enemy but there is no doubt that russia is now being surpassed as the enemy without a by china will be showing you a brand new video quite soon in the next hour about china and hong kong in particular but we thought that we would launch this poll. Just ducey how people think out. There is china a threat to the world. A yes be no. You can vote on my twitter. Feed now the first staw- what i hope and pray will be a regular weekly audience. They don't have princesses in america. But if they did rachel blevins would be my pick for queen actually. Never mind princess. She is the rising star of us media but if she ever takes my advice and cheese show no sign of doing so up till now she didn't to politics too because i think she could go all the way remember. Her name. is rachel blevins of artie. America and every week rachel. We're going to review the media over the previous week in the united states so it's a pretty spectacular week that we have started this slot. Tell us what the media treatment of the us-backed netanyahu assault on gaza. Currently looks like a jury. I know we talk a lot about politics here. And sometimes it's more fun to talk about all the politicians than it is to be involved in politics yourself but you know when it comes to looking at the biden administration and the media's coverage of all we've really seen a lot lacking this week i mean. We had a week in which the offices housing the associated press aljazeera and a number of other international outlets were attached by israel destroy and yet the. ap themselves wouldn't even name it in their headline they wouldn't say that israel was behind that attack. I mean we saw other similar coverage of where they would say that there were rockets from hamas fired and then suddenly dozens of palestinians just died and they wouldn't give any inside especially you know we talk about those headlines. Those are what get you to click on the article and yet we've seen this coverage that is so skewed that is so in favor of a us ally and you know it's kind of like where you're talking about there that other that enemy of sorts. It seems as though the media has already determined who the enemy is in this conflict instead of giving actual objective coverage of what's going on on the ground and so if you're a typical member of the public and you're looking at what the media has done this week. That should cause concern all around because there seems to be this ongoing campaign in gaza now to try to silence members of the media to try to silence their livestreaming their coverage. And that's something that media here in the. Us should be standing up about. They should be calling out israel for it and we should be getting much more especially from the biden administration than just these statements saying that. Oh they care about journalists. If that's the case then we need to actually start seeing that you it makes you wonder why israel bothered to destroy the television station there because when you see what the media will do in terms of supplication to the official narrative of the state. You you hardly need to as you pointed out on full. Disclosure associated press pays my a wages every week but i have no hesitation in describing their reaction to the destruction of their own studio their own equipment their own floors on that building as being so pitiful as to be beyond and beneath contempt. They couldn't even name who deliberately destroyed their own television station. Why bother. I don't know why israel bothered to destroy it. Yeah that's absolutely true and it makes you wonder if this is how it starts. Then how is it going to continue. I mean we're less than a weekend already. Dozens of children have been killed. You know we hear. From the biden administration that they are going to continue to stand by israel and yet the criticism in the media that is so lacking it so nonexistent finish should make everyone wonder what their coverage is going to continue to look like especially over the next few weeks if this bombing campaign continues as yahu is indicating that it will now of course we are talking about. Us media that could not find a the wards for a sustained attack on another of the american ally. Saudi arabia which literally chopped into pieces. Jamal khashoggi a columnist in the washington. Post his colleagues continue to produce the same slavish copy about saudi arabia. Even though one of their own colleagues was chopped up and lost down a drain by the chromium and solve saudi arabia. Yeah exactly i mean. It's to see the hypocrisy there because you saw a media that didn't seem to care at all about a journalist being persecuted being tortured to death because it was done by a close ally and yet these are the same journalist. That aren't going to tell you about. Julian assange and aren't going to tell you about his plight. And the fact that his life is in danger right now but at the same time they will spend days and days of coverage telling you about electing of all knee over in russia or telling you about china and russia and how they're the bad guys and how they're silencing dissidents according to the media and yet when it comes to actual issues of freedom of the press. They seem to have nothing to say about that whatsoever. I mean you would think that that would be the one issue that they would actually care about. We have a saying he original it will translate. Thank god you cannot bribe or twist the average journalist. But when you see what on bribe to. He'll do you realize there's no reason to that's something that's true on both sides of the ocean. Let's move on to other stories while the big stories in the us media this week. I think mainly this entire conflict and really what israel is doing in gaza right now has been the big story that we've seen covered all around. That has really been the overarching factor. That has been seen as sort of the binding administration's biggest foreign policy challenge here and there's been a lot of talk about that in a way that it's kind of being used to cover up a lot of what else is going on here in the united states. I mean we've got concerns about raising grocery store prices. We have concerns about continued inflation about where the economy is going and yet you would think that we would see more media coverage of that but instead it seems to be surrounding the biden administration. What they're going to do which is a legitimate purpose. I mean there is a lot of questions about why he continues to respond to this conflict in the way that he does and for the american people kind of just one more thing for them to pay attention to instead of looking at what is going on here at home instead of looking at where we are in terms of cova cases in terms of states opening up and so it really is an interesting time for. Us media would say what about russia and china. They're getting a break. While everyone focuses on gaza. You know i went supposed. They are one of the things is not mentioned. Nearly enough this week has been the fact that it has been russia the country who is always the bad guy. The country who the united states continues to accuse of threatening the world order yet. It has been russia calling for a ceasefire in gaza. Talking or at least trying to talk with both sides there they got hamas to agree to a ceasefire and then it was israel who said that they wouldn't agree to it so it's interesting to see how the media won't even admit to the fact that you've got countries like russia and china who are their continual big bad guys so to speak and yet in the time when they're actually focusing on peace and it's the united states that is throwing hat behind israel and saying that it supports them wholeheartedly. Then all of a sudden not media coverage is nowhere to be found the motion to convene the security council on friday and dot security council could have demanded an immediate ceasefire and who knows it might have happened and some people who are dead now who might still be alive but the only country only one which refused to convene the security council and support our was the united states of america's pretty dismal. Rachel it really is. And of course if you look at the last few decades of us foreign policy and the united states relationship with israel we also have to remember. This is nothing new but at the same time we should also be aware of the fact that the united states has a lot of leverage. Here i mean as we speak the. Us sends israel ten point four million dollars every single day. So when you're seeing president biden. Get on the phone with leaders. When you're seeing him talk directly with netanyahu we have to remember he could be calling and telling them to stop telling them to agree to a ceasefire instead of just giving them this ironclad support and yet there seems to be overwhelming fear especially in. Us politics this fear of them appearing anti israel in any way. And i think that's why right now you're seeing not only biden the decisions that he's making but you're also seeing members of congress who are staying silent even though we've seen some democrats increasingly speaking out on twitter or calling for the biden administration to do more to stop the overwhelming civilian casualties. That we're seeing right now. You're not seeing a lot of actual action. You're not seeing members of congress going to the floor in droves and saying let's stop this massive military aid that we are giving this country because right now we are paying for a massacre of children and civilians and so it really is a time where yes. We're seeing more people speaking up about it but at the end of the day it seems to be a lot of the same as usual in. Us politics will definitely is a higher base criticism of israel this time by comparison with previous massacres even bigger massacres than this one. A little this one still running patterns hilton has issued they demolish bella hadid the zane malik. The english born pop star at the fa cup final in london wembley stadium. The big football occasion live on television to a billion people. To of the victorious players for less star city football club raise the palestinian flag right in front of the trophy right in front of the centerpiece of the television coverage. That's undoubtedly true but so far it's not having its political impact before i let you go. Rachel and. I'm so glad that going to be joining me on sundays regularly to do this. Where is donald trump. I want to say i'm missing. I don't mean i'm missing him. Being the president of the united states. I missing him. Because there's there's a black hole where he used to be he has been wiped off social media completely and i don't know whether he's alive or dead. What news can you bring us. This week was an interesting one. For republicans to because we saw a lot of backlash against liz cheney over her support of impeaching donald trump. Now that may tell you that the gop is considering supporting trump and twenty twenty four right but there's also a lot of speculation that what the gop is doing right now is that they're kind of trying to get their supporters to calm down a little bit. They're trying to tell them it's okay. We're not really trying now trump completely and you're right to your point. We haven't seen or heard much from trump at all now that he's not on social media and of course now that his you know his new platform of sorts as he calls. It isn't gaining a lot of traction. So the question then becomes who is going to be that next rising republican star because what the gop is doing right now is. They're trying to get all of their voters. You calm down saying that. They're not totally trying to oust trump but then as we talk less and less about trump that gives way for another republican started to rise up and then all of a sudden the gop can say. Oh this one. That's the one we're putting our weight behind twenty twenty four and so for trump himself. I think in terms of him really quieting down seems like it doesn't seem like he's making much of an effort to really speak out and be hard right now and it seems like with any of the statements that he makes a lot of the same old same old so i think in order for him to really gain traction he's going to have to find ways not just to speak out but also to network with other people who are actually allowed on social media. So we'll see maybe here in the next few weeks year more from him but as of right. Now you're right. It seems like a black hole in media coverage where they used to talk about. Donald trump. Twenty four seven. Who knew that we would come to this point that we would end up missing the big man. Thank you very much indeed. Rachel blevins see you next week. God willing remember her name. Rachel blevins are rising star. I was one of the first to identify her as such. Let me take a quick break. And then we've got the vasant irrepressible. Patrick christie's to talk about the media here in britain. Don't miss it. Radio spooked nick. Call me come. Have a goal if you think you're hard enough don't bring up a false name come on. Am call me. Let's have this matter to the exit if you have no those. That's twenty sixteen argument michael. I'm no longer arguing with you about the merits of brexit. I'm arguing with you. About democracy about the right of the majority to have their decision. Their vote implemented bread have a referendum took robot. i want a referendum. Let me put that in capital letters. If you think this year which is shaping up already to be an honest miserabilist for the snp. You'd say this is your year. Go ahead come on. let's have out. Jordan is not as simple as that. Have you seen a documentary about kamya and people who work there have you look at. I'm not interested in. But not the anglogold them interested in the bruce. Because it's all a red herring just like russia gate was a red herring. Do you only want to hear voices agree with you because if you do. You're not clever enough to be at this open university of the airwaves. In fact you need to go back to remedial and learn something about what democracy and freedom of speech actually mean tough questions are the most powerful weapon. We have as long as you have questions. We'll keep asking radio sputnik telling the untold. I'm kind of lucky. The i never actually look at newspapers anymore and just touching them wondering how many trees were failed to produce them but i would have missed. The front page splash in the sun on sunday. They're big story is not gaza. It's not even covet. It's the marcus. Russia and his girlfriend of eight years have split up so sad but the biggest news of the day for probably the biggest selling newspaper in britain. What does that tell us tells us. Those of sheep in britain and that's borne out by the results so far of my poll is china a threat to the world. Seventy percent say yes only thirty percent say no and that's one thousand one hundred and thirty. Four people have responded. What's wrong with you. People get voting on my twitter feed now. I hope i'm joined by the literally irrepressible popping up everywhere on all media. I was one of the first to recognize his impending greatness to its patrick christie's the broadcaster and also journalist. Patrick let me in welcoming you ask of you. Recovered from the news. The splash in the sun on in the sun on sunday. That sir. Marcus has split up from his girlfriend. What kind of news judgment decides that is the big story in the world today. I thought it was outraged. If you're on your co but wonder whether or not marcus. Russia got one in the eye over the all free school meals for kids saying over potentially some more of the establishment media and as elements that conservative party. Perhaps now they've been battling something up waiting for just wonder if there's something behind whether or not he's turned down an interview with them in the past or something and they've gone we'll splash but the i personally don't care what do caribou golden knights is not doing enough all that i've got to say and there are some rather important games coming up. But you and i have a bias on as we are both supporters of marcus as we call him and does we are determined to make and manchester united but what else was rattling in the press today. Well there's been a lot about the football. The main thing i suppose you could say is what's going israel and palestine at the moment the ongoing issues that are showing no sign of abating. It's interesting that didn't make the front made the front page sharing it with guven. Yes in the pro war observer But it didn't make in the independent. Didn't make it in the in the telegraph and it didn't make it in the sun and it didn't make in the mirror. It is rather odd. The american media covering was happening in gaza. More than the british media. Don't you think surprised as the especially with some more of the left wing newspapers as well. I'm also quite surprised. Shouldn't be there was a massive rally taking place in london yesterday. Dow scott next to no news coverage having said that there's been numerous rallies taking place in central london quite recently things like the antilock damage it's minimal coverage as well so maybe newspapers just aren't bothering setting report is out there anymore. There are calls of boris johnson. Basically come out swinging for one side of the other on this clearly. He's he's backing israel in this particular as quite literally a fight now and it's an interesting moment. This boris johnson. Because of course. Jeremy corbyn one of the big things that was leveled at rightly or wrongly the big things that was leveled at easter production. We're issues of seventies. Boris johnson is famous video of him in golders green in london being surrounded by jews all of them chanting for him and i think he's very very aware of that voter base now and if he says anything negative about israel the not could have serious consequences. I do also think realistically as well. boris johnson. Base that looking at these these these kind of morbidly footage really of the iron dome. Israel's i dome. And they're seeing a lot of rockets being fired into that. And i think boris johnson possibly would feel a bit squishy saying israel couldn't defend itself. Of course the let's go to is is up for question of course is also under pressure on d- my from these front pages. Patrick yup is particularly. The liberal media is determined to stop any return to normality in britain. Absolutely ridiculous absolutely. I was absolutely sick to the cool about the press conference that we had boris johnson on friday. I wasn't sick about what he says. I can understand if you have a new indian variant. And that's a cause for concern. I understand that he's got some very cautious. Men in suits medical man sues next to him and they always has to have in the back of his mind but having said that listen to a lot of people from sky news or all these are the ones it's like they actually wants us to our own radiators for the rest of our lives are goodness say you seeing the narcissism. Come out there and say aren't you. Will you regret it. Do you think you will come to regret it. If you don't keep us all lockdown with this new indian variant. They're saying things. Like there's been an increase of one hundred and twenty percents in cases in blackburn and darwin still only twenty one cases they're still only twelve cases. There's new indian variant in northern ireland. Right which is not cases per burst. Let's be does the football team right so look. I think we need to contest. However why jesus might be might be something coming around the corner and something that you always have to watch out for. We boris johnson. Just fight whether or not. We stay strong with sage and stick to these four tasks which are the first two soldiers. So keep restrict you to stop and the restrictions being as the first to relate to. How are we going to vaccines absolute equivocally. We've not got one out the park. The third one are we to hospital capacity again yes. Hospitals not going to be overwhelmed with the fourth. One is about new variants of concern. And this is where we're on a bit of a sticky wicket when it comes to his indian variant. The question is how new is. Boris responsible for lesson here in the first place. Well there is the argument that he should have seen this coming. He's allowed tens of thousands of people to fly into britain from india that strikes me as exceedingly unwise but i argued from the beginning of this crisis. That being an island were actually able to stop everybody from coming in here and we could have lived a normal life for the last twelve months one hundred and i think this is the thing the only thing now that would ever send us back into a lockdown or delay lockdown restrictions being eased is if there's a new variant. There's more resistant to the vaccine. More transmissible are more deadly now. Thankfully took would vary where saying. Apparently he's around fifty percent more transmissible so far. They're saying that the data that they've seen the medical community doesn't seem to show there is any anymore resisted to the backseat. The opposite came out today. With my hand. Cocky was doing the rounds in inequality off to the media. Say actually he's now very confident very confident that vaccines that we currently have to work are good enough against his new indian variant. But the big question you've run said josiah's one. Did we even take that chance. You know the question really was apparently. Boris johnson was desperate to go to india to shore up a big bumper trade. Deal with modi the most democratically-elected manner aren't you know what he didn't go anyway. And we still got the trade deal leaving. The border with india with an absolute high risk moves that. We didn't need to take a lot since in this country. Do you think they should. The i g ziva prime minister or any lead-up is ultimately to protect your own citizens and boris left. The door quite literally left the door. Open that for a while now. My good friend. Andrew neil is about to launch his television station which is a rival to to the bbc. I think it's quite a potent threat to the bbc. Not least because you don't have to pay to watch it whereas you go to prison if you don't think to watch the bbc what's your take on gb news. Okay i think fundamentally from a very a media inside if you it's creating jobs in media which is nice. It's a really good thing germany. If you're inside the industry more work it's always great especially after the that we've had but also i think it's it's a real shame thing that is needed that it's necessary and that before we've even seen a single second of footage on gb news. It's already got mass. Popularity and people are people are looking at it lovingly already. It's a real shame that we've been in a situation that country where we have a state broadcaster that you have to pay for and riley said you have to pay for pain of going to prison. I mean flipping. The bbc quite often comes. Down is quite hard hitting documentaries on the plight of elderly people and loneliness at the same time wanted to start making some of the poorest old as members of society pay for the privilege of watching bargain ever go to prison. It was crazy i think. Gb news is a welcome addition. Though what will say though is for a lot of people that just think he's gonna be essentially right wing tea. It's not going to be. They have made some quite true deployments from across the political spectrum. I'm just. I'm very interested in how it goes. Yeah it's sad that we live in a country where necessary thing because all state broadcasters slackness downside late because the perception of a large number of people including me as someone who is on the left. Is that the. Bbc hates britain and certainly hits the british. It doesn't like there are ways. Their views of their political decisions. It doesn't like They voted for brexit'. It doesn't like that. The voted for boris johnson and gave him a landslide. Majority doesn't like our attitude as people towards all these liberal walk identity politics sessions. They are up an endless parade of virtue signaling and walk nece and that's not what the british people as a majority are now so as you say. Gb news is starting off with with an open door to the millions of people who feel that way. If even i feel that way and i regard the the the media as a whole unutterable a right-wing. If i even i feel that way. It's quite a big potential market. Don't you think patrick i agree. One hundred percent Literally one hundred and you just said. I think the bbc is crossed the rubicon from being a news source to try to actually influence people's thoughts. And that's a very dangerous game. Just stop playing. I would argue. Does deeply concerning gave just start playing when you start seeing when you stop being led by the nose by news organizations as opposed to them just reporting the adults rates fat. That was when you're in trouble now. Okay yes you get in the sun you die in the daily mail you get in the telegraph but you go out and you freely. Choose to go and buy those things right market choice. The bbc the pay for it's an ever-present permanent market presence and realistic rally for example. And they're not doing so when we all seeing things ram down throws relentlessly at the bbc. Now i mean don't because you'd be missing out on this. If you decided to cheat into the bbc now i can guarantee you would hear one of several things on their radio stations. It would either be Women's rights issue and how would you be tiki plus issue we something race related or something. Social social issues related. That's what aeko variation of the same thing every single minute of every single day and people actually don't want any right there. They've got my opinion now. The bbc a real crisis of identity with its audience instead of recognizing how most people think in this country and you can check that based on the fact that we vote on stuff occasionally. They are actually just deciding that their holier than now a now higher than the people that they dictate to you and you know what they'll lose out because of that. Patrick i look forward to justify with you every sunday from now on on the mother of all talk shows thank you very much indeed for joining us now in the wake of the deeply disturbing numbers. I'm reading here on our second paul of the evening. I told you there was an important new video coming out about hong kong because hong kong is one of the issues that is used by those dowd determined to persuade you take and fear china when in fact china has rather more historically to hate and fear us about not least in hong kong this video from how so then live deception interference. It was age of shame and intimidation. Isn't the hong kong hypocrisy ova apparently not at the two sessions 2021 china plus the new law for the hong kong special administers to bridgen patriots governing. Hong kong the british foreign secretary dominic. Robb put out. This statement is the latest step by beijing to hollow out the space but democratic debate in hong kong country to the promise made by china itself. One moment stop. Mr rob when you're elected member of parliament. You had to pledge allegiance to the queen before you could even sit in the commons and spend every. Mp has to do so before they can take their seat or receive their wages. Come to think of it. That's why you don't see islands shin fain in the houses of parliament. They of course would never about to the queen anyway. I really don't see the difference between the latest regulations in hong kong. And pledging allegiance in the houses of parliament britain practicing law procedure whilst condemning similar one in china. That's hypocrisy rights. Actually to crecy doesn't even come close. The uk stole hong kong from china by force to punish china for cracking down on the the opium trade and then ruled it for a century and a half in all that time. They didn't give a damn about democracy now. Hong has returned to china the british all over like arash demanding the right to use it as a trojan horse inside the chinese gates they want to influence the laws that should be applied to the violent rioting they themselves encourage which at one stage looked like it could burn hong kong to the ground. They're using hong kong as they use other areas of china like tibetans in john as a stick to beat china to slow it down and if possible to divide it so no dominant rob. This is not the latest step by beijing to hollow out space for democratic debate in hong kong the new measures for lawmakers no different to the ones in place in the uk. It's the british government in that building. They're not china. That needs to apologize. Have a hong kong excellent. Well done how so then you can have your say on. Are everything else. The show is now yours. Let's take a call from alaska. How could we resist. That david in alaska. Welcome to the show. David i've got some social media can fill in with mahama says israel wouldn't have been born without britain and wouldn't have survived without the. Us palestinians longest occupation suffering apart ethnic cleansing imprisonment blockades of anyone who stands up against them and jonathan says the israeli administration is pulling the trigger enabled by the usa and uk. And all this was set up by us in the uk another post colonial outrage freya on the other hand says the folks who started the rocket launchers hamas and free fib f. i. e. phoebe says uk gifting land which was not there to give away us giving cover and aid to continued atrocities. David is now in alaska. Long way away while com. Good morning again. George is always a pleasure to speak with you. I hope you are well. God thank you. I'm very glad to hear that. He has a what i wanted to bring. Up is rather large in scope but begins with A group of nations that starting with israel and the united states and how they may manage to put rocket base in on kodiak island and that was determined for peaceful purposes period. And that would be it. And i mean assuming years come about that. Israel is testing their rockets with raytheon now and their their rockets being used for warfare and expressly shortly on so many levels being tried out on the palestinians i in many cases but what ties in to the third country is germany which out of a sense of guilt that has gone on. For way too long has given israel nuclear missile capable sub capable submarines over the past ten years and other six of them and all of a sudden. This comes full circle back to alaska even and i'm very distressed by this much more worried about israel with nuclear weapons than i am with china russia or anybody. I just think it's a wild card that we've suddenly got to contend with but it's generally goes on spoken yes it does indeed the ira has never asked to inspect The the israeli nuclear weapons base In the in the desert which the brave isreaeli whistleblower modern vanu told us about more than thirty years ago and still they have not asked to see underneath the sand of the negative. The very place where. Israel holds more than two hundred nuclear weapons. Afraid you should be. Thanks very much david for the call. Let's stay in the united states. Go to virginia and talk to naseer in virginia. Go ahead nazir. George w salaam nice to hear from you. Glad i'm Number one very huge fan especially after watching the senate hearings which was ten years ago. But i watch it once in a while just to reset and can get anything by by The words that were said. But i guess Is a six zero. Six zero six zero match and so Thank you so much for There's got thank you so much but i just wanted to level said about israel. Just take a broader kind of perspective on. Why is it that between ten and twenty million jews on this planet Had this entitlement to the had their whole homeland if every enclave of ten or twenty million people wake up one day and say what we deserve. Our homeland the thousand. I don't know how many countries have seven billion people on this planet. And why is it that a small population that identifies themselves as jewish quote unquote more zionist. But and we won't get into the distinction here yet. Because i'm sure we don't want no serving time can do that anytime but the hour is late and that will that will definitely cut short how deep we can get into that bygone. Finish your point. So that's that's point number one point number two for a solution is why don't we just rename palestine-israel to moose on that as you know Who says word for a prophet moses and we all just say okay. The laws the prophet moses this land equally to all then neither christian nor june. Personally we have a problem with that but the problem is that no one wants to really do that right. They have their own agenda. And it's about the money as you say it's not about the prophets mussa. It's about the profits with the dollar sign or the of course. I know israel exceedingly well. I've spent a lot of time there. I'm here to tell you that. The great majority of israeli citizens never go to jerusalem is far too religious for them there too much religious extremism for them that they. It's no accident that they prefer tel-aviv. Preferred the beach the propel the mediterranean cafe lifestyle The the are not that many as a percentage of the hold is really population people demanding the right to mussa land. They'd run a mile a lot of them if forced to follow the teachings of moses. I'm every cannot have self determination because of course you can convert to religion could not possibly have jehovah's witnesses or mormons demanding the right to a state boggling hardware but there are two exceptional issues. He but must be raised first of all miserable already exists so arguments about whether it ought to have existed are ordeals because it exists. It's powerful state. It's a nuclear armed state. It's a state with the support of Almost every government in the world. So it's going to continue to exist. Therefore what now needs to happen. Therefore is a discussion about what kind of state this is to be. That's why i advance the argument for eight democratic state of israel hyphen palestine which in which the three religions coexist. They might hate each other for a very long time. But then those white people in south africa the black majority government there There's a lot of people on the black nationalist side who hate the fact that so white people in south africa still The most prosperous with the most land dance on that might be true. I can think of no other way in which this matter can be resolved other than on the basis of one man. One woman one vote of all three of the monotheistic faiths them thank you for that goal andrew is in newcastle but on the same subject andrew. Welcome hi touch. Welcome and say My questions that more a bit more broad. I mean it's not particularly connected to the conflict at the moment but more on the on the elections that with the spelling recent they I was following relatively close. Be looking at leadership. Candidates for awhile is not just the the the pass and And the general candidates on the ballot paper but more at some of the the different kinds of my gucci Ashwan ashwari plus. Even a. he was to stand. I'm a wanted to sound quality meetings with various people in palestine. alabama's fata He would you vote for. He proposes that as a leadership of for what is fatah whether it was speaking before the plo. And also how do you look to try and engage. Someone like lena my boss. He didn't want to stand for election. Pops get someone a bit more mainstream to the friends of the politics. Ah that be a gross intrusion for me on this platform intervene in someone else's election in that way but i do think i'm qualified to say and have a right to see someone who's given more than fifty years of my life to this cause that the plo isn't working the palestine national authorities current leadership isn't working and with all my heart. I appeal to the people in fateh to renew themselves to find a new leadership a younger and fresher leadership because it's abundantly clear that the national authority and the ruling party in it and the plo representing all palestinians outside as well as insight isn't working and needs to if the tremendous imbalance in power is to be addressed but thanks andrew for a very intelligent call very grateful for it. Kenny is in rockville. Maryland may be the last caller. Go ahead kenny. Hey thank you. You're gorrid first time but just wanted to shout out. I have to do this as an american shout out to my good friend dante over there and ukraine serving the call. It's a good fight I just wanted to talk about this Israel-palestine has an american Let me just say. I first of all the news. You don't know really anything. Other than israel is being attacked And as a person of human on this planet. I have to say that obviously would is happening in the israel. Palestine is a as an american. I can say is almost the the same problem that the african american community wants to complain about with the establishment in whatever regard you cops the man the government in the same regard. It's not as extreme nobel as i mean. At least african americans have a vote. The are often suppress gerrymander. Dan suppressed but the do in the end. The right to vote the millions off palestinians living since nineteen eighty seven under israeli allegation. Have no right to vote exactly in. That's what i feel. Americans have to understand. Is that this. The same plight. They wanted to complain about in their own. Country is a thousand times worse than the play that they're complaining that other people are legitimately complaining about in their own country. And i feel like the americans have this. This depth perception feeling has to it does. It's not the same because but it is but it's different and i really wish. Americans would understand the similarities and not be so in in in so cast by the new. The disneyland of it. If that makes sense. George does. And i wish that we had more time to tease out issues. That you've raised. I'm sure that this story is going to run and run. Whatever happens in the course of the next seven days and have no reason at all to believe that the killing is going to stop anytime soon about. The show has to stop because we have reached the end of our time. It's been quite remarkable show. It's been the mother of all talk shows at least from my standpoint and i hope from yours if you agree then please spread the word and comeback here next week at the same time in the same place. You can watch us on facebook on twitter on instagram on youtube. You can listen to us on sputnik news and you can listen to us may have done so all my goodness. It's are hundreds addition. We've walk with god birthday cake one hundred editions. I'm not eating this. His say's moats one hundred. It's been marvelous. You're listening to heartland newsfeed. Radio network live twenty four seven heartland newsfeed dot com. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram. Bipartisan agreement on cybersecurity. I'm joe chiro fox news. Many republican and democratic lawmakers are calling for moore to be done to protect the nation's critical infrastructure. They concern after the ransomware attack on the colonial pipeline california democratic congressman. Adam schiff on cbs's face the nation. We're all too vulnerable. I think the government is also going to have to go after these ransomware groups. And i think we're going to have to hold the host governments like russia china and elsewhere responsible and forced them to indemnify against these attacks when they allow these criminal groups to operate on their soil. The colonial pipeline has resumed normal operation but many filling stations still have no fuel israeli prime minister. Benjamin netanyahu says a tax on hamas will continue it full force. Both sides continue to fire rockets at each other. Fisons trey gangsters there were. Israel's iron dome has been intercepting rockets from gaza. Just listen. you're going to hear an explosion any second now interception there it is everyone. Stay down and another the. Un security council is meeting to discuss the conflict. Meanwhile dozens of people have been hurt in a bleacher collapsed and a west bank synagogue. The bleacher was packed with ultra orthodox worshippers and collapsed during prayers at the beginning of major jewish holiday to chicago. Police officers are hospitalized with non life threatening injuries after being shot this morning chicago. Police superintendent david brown must be clear offender. Turn immediately tried to kill these offers by firing a gun at him hitting both of them to the suspect is also hospitalized with a gunshot wound to the leg. America is listening to fox news. You're still running your business on quickbooks. More like quicksand. The bigger company grows the faster you sync with outdated software net suite by oracle. Is the scalable solution to run key back office operations no matter how big your company grows ninety. Three percent of surveyed organizations increased visibility and control since making the switch from quickbooks to net sweet right. Now it's offering a one of a kind financing program headed net sweet dot com slash fox that special financing sweet dot com slash fox dot com slash fox president biden's expected to resume negotiations this week with congressional republicans on an infrastructure agreement fives newsradio jared halpern has more. From capitol hill president biden met with several senate republicans last week negotiating infrastructure deal west. Virginia republican shelley moore capito says lawmakers are coming up with a counter offer to present this week to react to that and then so we're very courage. The president indicates he's willing to compromise on his one point nine trillion dollar jobs plan but says inaction is not an option and as memorial day deadline for real progress on negotiations on capitol hill jared halpern fox news. Oklahoma republican governor kevin stood has been ousted from a commission honoring victims of the nineteen twenty one tulsa race massacre. It happened after recently signing a bill banning critical race theory from the classroom evidence. Defense is signing of that bill. There's confusion because we will teach history it actually. The bill says that we will take the oklahoma academic standards so all the rhetoric that the left is just trying to politicize. This is a no brainer. Read the bill. Tell me what anybody argues with it. It's just a no brainer. In oklahoma stint on fox and friends a michigan botanist has been experimenting with seeds. That are more than a century old. Dr david lowry and associate professor at michigan. State university has been keeping watch and seeds. He planted from recently unearthed bottles on campus buried. Back in eighteen seventy nine eleven seedlings have sprouted service. Come lataria a flowering herb. The sprouts are the result of a long running experiment which began when botanist. William james beal took the seeds and stash them in containers to see if they'd grow decades later. They did. Dr lowry said when he saw the plants. It was kind of an amazing moment. Rachel sutherland fox news. You're still running your business on quickbooks quickbooks more like quicksand. The bigger company grows the faster you sync with outdated software. That just can't keep up. 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Here's a look at weather from the heartland news feed weather center wednesday mostly sunny with a high near sixty one wednesday night clear with a low around thirty nine thursday sunny with a high near sixty five. That's the latest weather. Check out more news and weather on our website at heartland newsfeed dot com. The internet is rife with misinformation. Fake unbiased news. So-called fact checkers that are nothing more than political activists slopes and then there's wikipedia. Yes there are people out there that think wikipedia is a trustworthy source for information. If you're one of them were sorry to say that your bubble is to be burst today as we welcome larry sanger to the show. The co founder of wikipedia. Larry as much to say about. What's really taking place. There any provides a vision for how we can overcome this era of false information to build a truly useful in decentralized in cyclists. Fear this podcast is the top podcast in the world. Even more popular than joe rogan. I fact check it by asking the internet. Some dude said it was true now. He may have been stoned off his mind. But we're just going to go with it. It was me it was me. I can prepare to hear some factual information on episode number. Four hundred seventy seven of the bed. Crypto podcast. i saw oo ben crippled. Podcast actual information we tell the truth because we made it up. You don't wanna change the station because we're not going to change the situation facts truth for truth. Pruthi things things that are kind of true loosely. True but we're going to say they're true because we believe they're true and welcome to the mostly. True bad crypto. Podcast episode number. Four hundred. seventy seven. I am joel comm. I fact check that. I am the world's largest holder of bitcoin. I'm i'm not. That's a lie. I'm travis right travis. Welcome to the show. Everybody great interview with larry. Sanger you guys are really gonna dig this The dude who has been on the inside and can lay out. What happened at wikipedia. A little bit about pedia and his vision for where things are going in the future. And i we're going to tell you about our sponsor at one inch one inch dodig. Change their defies leading decks aggregate. Or so imagine all of the decentralized exchanges out there and they're sourcing liquidity from all of these top decks including trust swamp including unicef swamp. And it saves you time in money on your swaps. Basically one inch finds the best possible trading paths in splits it among multiple markets launched in may two thousand nineteen by two white hat. Hackers that globals eath new york hackathon. They've reached almost seven billion in overall volume and just over a year. I've used it. It's very cool. You can check it out swap on one inch version to today by going bad code dot. In ford slash one inch. That's bad code out. I and ford slash the number one inch. I n c h like. You have an inch to scratch now. That'd be a niche jeff that they're so modest about one inch bragging about it. She's gonna brag about one inch ragging on it right now. I'm gonna brag about this interview. Because larry sanger is one of the smartest dudes that that know and he just wants to do right by providing real factual information. He's got a great vision for how to make that happen. And i think we should just get down to it. It's always a thrill to speak with the founder somebody who has pioneered technology and resource. That is world renown. It's even more interesting when that person has moved on from that world renowned source because of serious philosophical disputes with a co founder. Today we're talking. With larry sanger the basically the person who spearheaded wikipedia. This was you know he named it. He'd let it its first year and he formulated much of the original policies. He founded it. Along with jimmy wales and that was way back in two thousand one so is a wikipedia is twenty. Episode of the bed crypto. Podcast larry welcome to the show. Hey well thanks for having me on. Yeah it said. It's been a long time since since we started it. Can you believe that twenty years. Twenty years is actually seems like twenty years. Here seems like a lifetime ago. Yeah well so you know what was the thought what was the impetus for creating it. Try to put yourself in the mindset of two decades ago. Well jimmy wales hired me to do it basically. It was my full time job to start a free encyclopedia for bombs. So bama's inc Was the company behind bombs dot com which was One of the bigger web ring portals of the late nineteen ninety s backman networks such things. No don't bomb us. No he said obama's. Oh yeah so. It's basically the idea was that we wanted to do for Encyclopedias what's basically laid the what's Open source software Principal did for lennox for example. Yeah i'm basically. How do you crowd source and encyclopedia. Get a whole bunch of people from all around the world working a synchronous. -ly you know at different times To to volunteer their their valuable time to build an encyclopedia that was basically the problem. I was given to solve this just at the job. Essentially just fell in my lap. Because i was Seeking jimmy wales out. Who has an acquaintance at the time. and many others for advice on a startup that i was thinking of doing. I'm isa don't work on that. Come to work on this and Yeah the whole idea of starting a actually being responsible for not just editing but starting an encyclopedia is really exciting to me how did you. How did you guys get into that. We said hey. We're going to create this thing. It's going to be calm. Everybody's gonna donate their time for free and we're gonna make no revenue. Were not gonna charge anything. We're not gonna do any advertising. We're gonna make no money. it's genius. How does that turn into a business. Model yeah That's a good question is i. I recall One of the first conversations we had And so the the short answer is we're gonna look like a nonprofit in the beginning and then slowly as more and more people get to use it and they get to like we will. We will slowly introduce ads and It will be at driven. And i was worried about that. I actually thought that okay. Well if you start doing that then all these people who see their work being you know having ads slapped on it but monday like take issue with that and and Of course this was long before the days of things like facebook and kwara and all these these content sites that shamelessly put ads everywhere Yeah it was. I mean sure there. There was a lot of You know Lot of websites that were paid for with ads but user generated content. Paid for by odds was was kind of edgy. So i was worried and he said okay for it really gets down to that then converted into a nonprofit and you know we'll just draw nice big sinecure out of this this is essentially what he told me And i said okay. Well one way or another. I think it sounds like it. it could be worthwhile. So that's basically how it was going to go. I i think the way that that jimmy wales portrayed it to me was this enterprise is you know just something to benefit the world and We of course will benefit alongside but from actually making it but it's going to benefit the world and so that was the selling point. There's also the selling point that it was easy to make to the volunteers. So what was the initial philosophy of wikipedia you know in terms of becoming this encyclopedia and not being biased in the content but that was certainly part of it The a lot of different elements of the philosophy the principles that we started at on may maybe the first principle was it's open source or the open content version of that called up content which means anybody could contribute to it. Anyone could swipe a copy except it's not swiping. It's almost in the public domain. Not quite the people who originally wrote the articles retain copyright but they've also given the world right to reuse the stuff under certain very very limited conditions. So it's being generous with our with our work in encouraging everyone to be generous together kickstarting the gift economy in the context of an encyclopedia. So that was a big principal. Another one was openness so In the same way that a source software is open to anybody who is Very capable and willing to work with others and so forth in an open source system. Hey you can come and work on an encyclopedia with us and we will renew. We won't have anything against you so we initially. We were all about like having the left and the right working together people. From all different countries all different religions ultimate points of view working together and then the idea. third is. How do you get all of those people and working together in a really open system answer. You adopt a neutrality policy. A non-bias policy as i call it in the In the preceding new pedia project than wikipedia was built on top of new pedia Came called in. Pov the neutral point of view policy or as say just neutrality policy that says basically that rather than the article authors trying to declare what is the truth are most likely to be true on the subject according to the experts or whatever instead of that we actually try to represent a wide cross section of opinion of course opinion that is endorsed by different competing experts. So this and it's important right because the experts do disagree with each other. And we the world a disservice by pretending that that they don't And there are really really important ideological religious and other differences that people have and we do the world a disservice if we if we pretend that those differences don't exist and we basically make up people's minds for them so that was another big important principle that we started. We competed audit. There were actually quite a few others. It's really interesting to me that because the internet has sort of involved. I like your original sort of viewpoint of hey let's have all the opinions of all the folks and let's let people make their own decision and now the world is seem that it's become very nella as you must believe this way or no way and or we're gonna cancel you and it's just weird how the world is sort of evolved. Now how did you guys originally when you were creating. This is like factcheck like it's just people are facts is right now. You know the president of the united states is getting fact jagged getting sent certain stuff and so like when you guys were early on and we compete you. Guys were sort of pioneering the space of. Here's what we think is the truth but who is the one who is the arbiter of that truth. That says okay. We have determined. This is the truth well again. We did not declare one particular truth on any controversial opinion so we weren't Fact checking in in that sense. The the whole modern notion of fact checking is absurd to me that the notion that people can Pick the winners and losers when there are serious controversial opinions sometimes. There are definite facts and people make mistakes. or they lie in can be proven I'm not denying that and actually those sorts of things usually did come out in the wash in discussions in pedia But for the most part what the way it worked was we would just hash things out on the talk page and The talk page is paged. Each article had its own paid for discussion of the content of the article. And i mean of course. There were people who fought a lot practically from the beginning. It didn't really get to be Bad though i would say about six or nine months in and then add quickly. That's that didn't take long. Yeah well. I suppose so. Right that there was in the in the earliest days. We were dominated by people who came over from from new pedia and re we. We started with a bang. That were actually a lot of people involved with ricky pedia right from the beginning like dozens Because we had already built the community through pedia that's why recipe has got such a great start But then we started getting invaded essentially By waves of people from corrosion riches now defunct technology group blog and slash dot specially slash dot com slash dot is dominated by. Basically the libertarian. Left it was probably still is and they Those people well. Let's just say. There were a lot of anarchists there. There were a lot of people on on. I recognize now just due to this sort of Habits that i've i've come to detect you know in the intervening years. They were basically the the twenty two thousand one version of social justice warriors And they were very difficult to work with. Let's just put it that way. And eventually they took over. But as i say in the very first months you know even as far as the first nine months it was sexually relatively easy to work together and the whole notion that we could reach some consensus actually made some sense but as soon as there were enough people involved in it didn't matter what the politics were of at. Were frankly when there were enough people involved. The whole notion of decision making by consensus went out the window. That's that's actually one of the big mistakes that we made and it's a mistake that that wikipedia still has not solved has not has not fixed what. What was the last straw for you. When did that happen. And what made you probably throw up your hands and say i'm out So i i left in two different stages i they lost the ability to pay me so wikipedia was started just as the dot. Com boom was turning to bust so over the course of that first year in two thousand one the Market for ads collapsed. And by the end of two thousand and one They had lost a big contract. The bombers had lost a big contract so they had to like get rid of all of the early hires about half a dozen of us. And i was the last one to be let go. But they basically couldn't afford to pay me so I basically stopped paying me like in february and then i quit at the beginning of march. Because i didn't wanna work as a as a volunteer. You know not under a actually thought. It'd be difficult to maintain any sort of authority in the system. If i actually weren't a paid employee i'm it was. It was hit a already become difficult. So by the end of two thousand two. So the your after repeated Got started the project had been well and truly invaded not entirely right but enough by various bad actors on the left they had frankly driven off a lot of decent people and these were not conservative. People who were driven off. They're just regular just regular academics. Probably fellow leftists but they couldn't work with these people who are Basically made life difficult among the things that you would do is. They'd they'd Right nonsense articles articles that just Represent their own idiosyncratic point of view and then defend them at length against all comers and ignored policy. Another thing they would do is write articles. Vi are really blatantly biased like as biased as they are today but we wouldn't put up with that back then. I mean we re we would argue with people and basically there was. Those people were not being kicked out right. They were being allowed to to stick around and and they were just a growing problem. That was festering And and on top of that because There was no special role for experts in the system at all that the special role was actually new. Pedia new pedia is sexually supposed to work with wikipedia alongside it but didn't end up working that way So experts had no role at all in the in the system. They just had to work side by side shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of anonymous in some cases dimwit. And of course that's going to drive them out and it did so at the end of two thousand one the beginning of two thousand and two thousand to the beginning of two thousand and three. I actually made an ultimatum to jimmy wales. I said look you you do something about these difficult people who have overrun the project. That are driving out the good people and you also throw the experts to bone of some sort. Give them some sort of low key role in the system approving certain versions of articles or whatever. Give them a group to work with and and then you know. I won't leave but if you don't i'm going to have to leave because i just can't i can't Approve of what's going on anymore. And jimmy wales. I think he liked that idea of me completely Leaving because it seemed to be very easy for him to to say okay. Yeah i don't really see a problem. I don't see the problems that you're identifying in the project So so i left and dive never regretted leaving Well this is one of those things. And i think. That's maybe it's tie into you know when when you were over at ever repeated. It's like throwing those experts abound. Let let the let the experts earn some crypt over their time and their knowledge. And maybe let them you know. Have some have some You know. I don't know like fact checking but just anti bias checking in there because it's like or if you're biased there at least needs to know that it's by honesty. That's all just honesty. I mean that's that is a virtue that we should aspire to. And i think when people are trying to put out an agenda. They're not being honest. So well you guys have thrown out a a lot of things there just to give background For people who don't know this i was the cio of every pedia. The blockchain encyclopedia doesn't mean it's an encyclopedia about blockchain's it's an encyclopedia That has actually on captured on the blockchain. You can actually earn coins by writing articles in editing articles So it's the encyclopedia of everything. So has more articles than the kapiti does. Because it's copied all wikipedia articles and added to to those a whole bunch of other articles about mostly pop culture topics topics of Concerning people who are in and means that our internet famous mostly so Yeah i There's a lot to say there i mean. Where do you really want me to begin it. What you want to say. I well. I'll say this when i when i joined every- pedia. I told them what i really want to work on is a project where we sort of bring all the encyclopedia's together in a a database that would essentially linked to them all make them easy to search from one place but not just a meta search engine something that would give the public The means of of rating the articles But again in a way that's totally decentralized and i actually had told them about. This idea told the guys not long after they started every pedia back in two thousand two thousand fifteen. I think it was And they tried to recruit me. I didn't want to get involved. And and then in two thousand seventeen sam kasmin said so. We're thinking of moving ever repeat. It wasn't a chain project to begin with. We're thinking of moving it to the blockchain And i said bought out. That sounds very interesting. Why would you do that. And then he explained well. This actually is how we might be able to implement your idea. And i said that sounds very cool so i. I spent a couple almost two years. Mostly giving speeches Evangelizing the whole idea of a decentralized encyclopedia project and every pedia was just going to be what we need to do. In order to get the system set up running and then we would add the ability of other encyclopedias to work within the same system. Well it it turns out without getting into too much detail. Because i could easily get into the weeds here. It turns out that another thing that we talked about an beginning clearer and clearer that it that it was going to be necessary. There needed to be essentially a nonprofit. That would hold the the standards. The internet communications standards that would be used by the different encyclopedias to communicate among each other so they're basically in the same way that rss an atom that are the standards that sort of define the blogosphere. So there there would need to be some standards that would define the this encyclopaedia network And then the more. I thought about it more. I thought this really can't be ever a pedia. Because every pedia is competing directly with with These other encyclopedias. So i end. I said you know. I really my. My heart is in the project making a truly decentralized encyclopedia network not just an encyclopedia that happens to be run on the blockchain but a decentralized genuinely decentralized encyclopedia network in fact that doesn't have to be on the blockchain at all probably the content is going to be on on bittorrent and in the end obviously There's all kinds of things there that that can be represented on and ported to block chains like every bedie's for sure repeat is actually interested in in being one of the first Front ends so to speak of the new network of encyclopedias. So the network of encyclopedia's I'm calling the in cyclists fear so just like the blogosphere it concerns encyclopedias. So it's going to be the cyclists fear and i have started a nonprofit. I started officially last fall. We got our first hundred thousand dollar donation. I'm happy to say so. That's given me some time to actually get my ducks in a row and and that the website should be launched by the time. This appears i sure. Hope it is And the website is in cyclo. Sphere dot org. The the nonprofit is called the knowledge standards foundation so the home of the knowledge standards foundation is in cyclists. Fear dot org now in cyclist fear. Dot org is not an encyclopedia. It will never be an encyclopedia. We will not run an encyclopedia. We have an app or anything like it. All we're doing is organizing the standards organizing the people who will build all the different components of what is truly a decentralized network. Something that has no center no leader at all unlike most block blockchain projects by the way really decentralized not just in name and so that's what i really want to do and i gotta ask this because you know the Those who win the wars right. The history books right. That's that's a. That's a thing i wore than the history of changes a little bit better on their narratives. How is in cycles. Fear going to end the knowledge standard. Actually you know beholden to the truth in is there. Mechanisms built ended us. That says hey this is the truth and or you can dispute the truth or you know. How are you going to approach that. Because there's there's so many narratives out there that you know you don't even know what the real truth is anymore right Well excellent question. The answer is we're going to have multiple articles on the same topic competing with each other and the ability to rate the articles. Again in a way that is totally decentralized so there won't even be one canonical database of ratings or of the articles. It will be like the block the like the blogosphere in that respect. There's lots of different blog. Aggregate irs right lots and lots of them actually and in the same way we expect there to be plenty of different. In cyclists fear. I or encyclopedia aggregate. There's bringing the content or at least the meta data about articles and people's ratings about them together and how they are run individually sort of up to them. We're just creating the infrastructure. Were for the thing to exist all of those difficult questions about editor policy. Those are not questions that we want to be concerned with at all. We want to be neutral with regard to editorial policy or with regard to that trucks We wanna we wanna basically leave that open to the people who are making the apps and who are rating articles. One exciting idea is that once. There is a sort of rating service available. Is you know you. You could actually have light. Lists of raiders like the american medical association for example could publish its white list of the identities of doctors and then those people working totally independently of each other can just go and rate different articles about medical topics in their specialties. And then other people can aggregate all of those different ratings and all they need is the white list and the articles and then they can actually declare the which is the leading article according to ama certified in a. I tried People but then of course you know doesn't have to be establishment source. There's all kinds of alternative ways of slicing and dicing rating data. That will be out there. But that's the beauty of trudy centralization. I have to laugh when. I look at my wikipedia. Page had one for years and i know people have tried to update and correct some things on it but i feel like that there are the people that are our editors are people who couldn't do anything else with their lives and sitting in their basements and feeling ultimate power in control to To edit i'm just just in the beginning. Earth says com began his career as a radio personality. That's true where he played music in was a weatherman. I was. I never ever. I mean probably as a dj. I said a couple of times. Hey it's sunny out. You know but i was never you. Show me your sunset all the time because you live in kansas city. There's weather outside. I mean just bad and then you know the it's like somebody tried to update i'd seen you're little notification. They tried to put my new books on there. And somebody remove my new books. They tried to put That i was the co host of popular crypto podcast on there and then somebody came in and removed that. And it's just it's honest. Let's play a game here. Larry yeah hundred on a scale of one. It being utter trash to ten being completely factually reliable. I'm going to say a few different sites or niches and with all bias of yours put aside on a scale of one to ten whereas wikipedia on the reliability scale. I don't know maybe trae. Wow i i was expecting maybe five or let's do a couple more mainstream media. Don't wanna do this game I it's fun but while you're making unclear a lot of these things wikipedia. I've thought a lot about so. I didn't feel too bad about doing that but yet we competed has some a lot of factual information. Even still it continues to be useful even still on some topics. But how do you trust it. If i mean if you're saying it's an ami that means even worse you have to limit yourself to the strictly factual topics and even there. You have to wonder who. What effect is the total politicisation of media and that includes wikipedia now. What effect has that had even on the portrayal of what you might think are just basic factual information. I can't. I can't tell you why i have. I let me give you an idea about why i think Your article in particular has been so difficult to edit insurance Recompete has been taken over by A mob Practically criminal bob like a mafia offer a operating behind the scenes anonymously now. I'm not saying that it's one isn't for sure it's not just one organization but there's a lot of competing pressure groups. That are more or less cooperating on on the edges depending on where they are. Bailiwicks are Some of them are spies. of course they would be. This is one of a most popular websites on the internet. Some of them are corporate shows. I mean of course they are. This is like they get paid the big bucks to shape the public opinion about A billion dollar industries so of course corporate shows are there and they are among the people with those wikipedia powerful accounts of course and then there's government chills Political shows idiological players who are trying to shape public opinion to make sure that people. Anyway you actually have to be playing one of those sorts of games in order to do anything on repeated and you have to do it successfully That's that's what i think is going on. It's hard to prove. But how could it not work that way because this is how the world operates everywhere else and we know. It's obvious read me. No of course for a fact. That wikipedia is is run by anonymous. People are some people who whose identities are known. Be even there. You know even if their identities are known they don't have any personal culpability for a sort of responsibility for this this just a corporate responsibility which is sort of diffused the the actual legal entity the media wicky foundation doesn't actually bear legal responsibility for most of the content of kapiti most of the time They are the legal owners of the website. Sure theoretically it's possible to to sue them and so forth but for the most part they're covered by section two thirty aren't they and That gives the those anonymous groups are great deal power. This is how it's worked for a long time. So i think that's why it's so hard for you to get your article. edited because You know you you're not paying the right people man you get out there and just open up your your wallet. I guess and And and pay off the right people. I'm not paying somebody to put me in it. honestly it's inconsequential right. Doesn't really matter for to read my article at all. Yeah a which appear page is a status symbol but it's as meaningful as having verified checkmark on twitter. Just it doesn't really mean anything. I just wanted to be accurate. If you're gonna say stuff about me. I'm not a fricking weatherman. You're the source on comedy. You should be able to somehow be able to input thoughts about joel. I would say but you can't if you try to long time ago. I did that and it says. Oh you know. Person appears to be connected to the source so yeah 'cause i know 'cause it's me because i wasn't a damn weather man now it's just crazy so let me ask this. This is actually one of the things that we were. That joe and i were thinking about whenever we I started doing this show. A group reached out to us about this project called deep sea and the idea was to do a deep sea into every piece of content. Like as read it you know stuff comes through road. Read it and you're like wait a second. Who is this author. Who is this author. Behold into who is paying this author like why are they mentioning certain products or brands or certain things in their contact like over time to just sort of understand the bias that the author or the publication might have does lean to the left doesn't lean to the ride is the more moderate who are they beholden to give them a by score that way. We can know what we're dealing with. That was gonna be the idea. And then the decided he wanted to create a decentralized youtube instead it was just it was just kind of flaky but that was one of the things that made us go. Wow this would be so good not only for encyclopedia articles but for you know actual you know by checking or fact checking in some ways not to say. This is the version of the truth. This is the real truth but allowing people to become better at critical thinking doing their own or at least how to think about things because a lot of times. The real truth doesn't actually make it to people through their filter bubble anymore right in there. So insulated from everything that they don't even understand what's really going on in some cases because their filter bubble is so tightly wound by big tacking and by big media. And so is this kind of when you're thinking about the encyclop- spheres this kind of something. That might solve some of that. Yeah i mean in some ways. I guess you could think of this. As a as an implementation of that idea might is that there would be a plug ins for media leaky and for wordpress. So you'd be able to start your own wicky be able to start your own blog And make them into a another part of the encyclop- spear it would be its own Encyclopedia or maybe. It's just a a few articles that you put out there You press a button on the wordpress plug. In and it publishes the article to the encyclop- fear and then it joins a in to begin with anyway. Undifferentiated mass of encyclopaedia articles. And then it's up to bunch of different competing apps like news readers or blog readers but encyclopedias raiders to To decide which is the best or to give the users the ability to to determine which is the best so yeah this actually is a way to break through different filter bubbles. I mean i could imagine seeing different competing articles written about the Twenty twenty presidential election. one written by trump supporters one written by establishment Republicans and one written by democrats And it would be very interesting to compare those three articles or better yet The topic is the same. Whoever writes the article but you have different. Groups of people identified different people so you have the trump supporters. Then you have three republican non trump reporter supporters. and then you have democrats. those would be three tags. that raters could use to rate their their Themselves or rather to to to rate themselves but categorize themselves. And then you could basically say with the data's long as there were enough people who are writing the articles you could Do a search using one of these encyclopedia readers. You could ask the system. What was the top rated article on the twenty twenty presidential election according to trump supporters and the best article but actually have to be better rated than all of the other competitors and that will probably be very different from the top rated article according to democrats that'd be great for critical thinkers rights today own research. I think the only flying at the tension the articles the only flaw on that potentially is that sort of you know where somebody goes. Oh i am a trump supporter. And i'm gonna ride this about this right and then there's sort of fake persona. There's a lot of fake personas going. There's not a fake republicans that are actually democrats and likewise. How do you solve that. So i i agree So any such system like this There's going to be and incredible incentive to To game the system and that's that's become almost four. It's like one of the first things that hackers tried to do when anything reasonably interesting comes down the pike. isn't this why we should have verified profiles. Though we don't know who's ending wikipedia. They hide behind anonymous. Names you know on twitter anonymous sources You know so much of the time. At least when there's a name behind it you know who's saying you can see where they're coming from in determine. Is this being unbiased. Or are they just giving their opinion. Yeah so the network definitely has to have as a koponen identity system right so you wouldn't have to reveal your identity in order to have an article or even to make some ratings but it's going to be harder to get people to listen to you if you don't and so the the idea is we can certainly have Articles written by an anonymous people as as much as you like and maybe some of them will will Filter up but if you are required to reveal your real identity that all kinds of new interesting things become possible you can come up with new algorithms dry identify who the real people are. First of all you can come up with algorithms to is actually Giving his own opinion as opposed to just spoofing. Someone acting alarming for example. I think that's alarming. Is definitely one of the one of the ways. In which politic- political operatives like to play probably probably information warfare involves a fair bit of larvae. These days so whatever system we come up with is going to have to avoid that and it seems to me that the way around that is to come up with some sort of effective white listing technology. Right so basically it becomes. We have to make it possible for people to declare that in the opinion of some organization. This list of accounts can be trusted as being. How do we know that organization could be trusted because you know an academia. There's a lot of has to start somewhere right. it's true yeah it always falls apart though and this is i mean when you look at who. We are trusting. Think of how many people still think that wikipedia is a legitimate source of knowledge on so many of the things that they go look for think. How many people think that facebook fact checkers her actual fact checkers or that. Politifact is not horribly biased snowfall toward snow. I mean would you trust slopes larry they. They're bad they're actually quite bad it what they do. It's the national lorrimore affect checking especially on political topics. Yeah it's not. It's not real fact checking people who don't think for themselves slopes read it and they go that's debunked because slopes said so what. How do we develop more critical thinking amongst the population. Well i am. It's hard as somebody who has taught critical thinking at the college level. I'm like most You know philosophy grad students and having to do it. It's not people's favorite class to take and they don't always do the best in the class and those are college students so Yeah it's hard to draw sherie meets it needs to it starts with education right but of course we've been dumbed down. I think probably deliberately in some to some degree maybe not because people value ignorance and they value the inability to to think critically. Maybe they do want that. But but it's more they value of fairness and well the systems that they come up with in order to ensure fairness ultimately mean. That people are gonna end up getting a bad -education and they're not gonna learn how to think truly critically and so forth so there's a lot of a lot to be said on that. Yeah let me let me ask that again. Then what what do you think would be a definitive source assists. Folks aren't going. Wow maybe i don't think critically enough water some resources. I mean aside from in cycles. Fear which i think i think it gets built out and you can see varying viewpoints. That's going to be a helpful thing so since utah. This in universities like water a couple of sources that you might suggest. People educate themselves on around critical thinking just to educate themselves about critical thinking to become a better critical thinker. I'll just take your question at at face value. I mean your take a college course about critical thinking. They kind of college course. Read a book. There's a lot of of good books about critical thinking. I've got a. I've got a half a show them down there actually and It's it's not easy. It's like any area of of knowledge A lot of it comes naturally right. A lot of it is just sort of like built into learning other subjects right so even if you've never had a class in critical thinking but you've had a good general education in the liberal arts and sciences. then you probably will be pretty good at critical thinking It's impossible to learn critical thinking without actually learning content. I mean people try to teach that in an logic. Classes taught by philosophy departments But even those examples in those classes draw on common information. And if you can't make sense of of that sort of back you're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio network lie at hartland. Newsbeat dot com. The stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by you follow us on facebook twitter and instagram defending their attacks. I'm joe chiro. Fox news is really rocket attacks on gaza. Today have killed at least forty people in prime minister. Benjamin netanyahu vows to continue. We are targeting a terrorist organization that is targeting our civilians and hiding behind their civilians using them as human shields. We're doing everything we can to hit the terrorists themselves the rockets their rocket caches and their arms. But we're not going to. Just let them get away with it then yahu on cbs's face. The nation palestinian foreign minister riyad malki blames israel. Think of what it feels to see your world crumbling down and not being able to protect them. Think of what it means to sleep. Not knowing which one of you will wake up. Meanwhile two people were killed. Dozens injured when a bleacher. They were on collapsed. In a west bank synagogue. The cdc is defending his decision to announce it fully vaccinated people. No longer need to wear masks in most cases. Cdc director dr rochelle will ski for sixteen months. We've been telling people be cautious. Be careful cases are going up. Deaths are still very high and for this very moment. We have cases coming down. They're down a third. The last two weeks death rates that have never been as low as since april of twenty twenty one ski on fox news sunday. Many filling stations are still empty following the cyberattack. Shut down on the colonial pipeline. According to gas buddy forty five percent of gas stations in georgia are out of fuel fifty-one percent in south carolina and sixty five percent in north carolina in washington. Dc eighty percent. The national average price for a gallon of regular unleaded gas is three dollars. Four cents according to aaa up seventeen cents from a month ago. Fox's jonathan serrie. America is listening to fox news. You're still running your business on quickbooks. More like quicksand. The bigger company grows the faster you sync with outdated software net suite by oracle. Is the scalable solution to run all. Keep back office operations. 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Ford has teamed up with lasco and the university of minnesota to come up with a diy. Air filtration kit that includes a cardboard box alaska box fan and high efficiency air filter filter. You just it in fight kerber box and you put the fan on top of debt. We can discharge the clean air and it downwards and pull the unfiltered air for director of vehicle. Research in tax. Cynthia flanagan says the peer reviewed is scrappy. Filter can reduce coronavirus in the air with a focus on small spaces at home or in school instructions on how to make one also available on. Ford's website jeff monosso fox news researchers say they now know how some see animals navigate. There's always been speculation that sharks used the earth's magnetic field as a sort of natural. Gps system to navigate journeys taking them great distances across entire oceans. Now scientists say new marine lab experiments with a small shark. Species confirmed that long held theory. Something already seen in other marine animals like sea turtles. One scientists saying some sharks can travel up to twelve thousand miles and end up in the same spot. That study is published this month in the journal current biology paul stevens fox news at. I'm joe chiro. Fox news talk. Here's some breaking news. That is very good for your business. Indeed now offers you everything you need in one place get instantly matched with quality candidates whose resumes on indeed fit your job description then schedule and interview top picks. All in you're indeed dashboard. Indeed is the job site that makes hiring as easy as one two three post screen an interview all and indeed get your quality shortlist of candidates whose resumes on indeed match. Your job description faster and schedule and complete video interviews in. You're indeed dashboard. 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Check out more news and weather on our website at heartland new ski dot com broadcasting network. You're listening to wrestling observer vibe with your hosts bryan alvarez and mike. Let's get it going. Everybody bryan alvarez here on wrestling observer live. We are here every day monday. Through friday new civic threes from sunday three pacific sixties during. It is sunday here on this program. You should know what that means. Pay per view. W we pay per view coming up this afternoon. It is me backlash and at this moment we have a six matches an answer the show. We'd go home episode of smackdown on friday which actually thought was a really good show for the third straight week third straight week very good shell and then they didn't have one match to the pay per view so six matches i am told and i. I shouldn't even say this. Because i don't have a confirmed but now that important i believe. The pre show is shameless. Doing an open challenge. That's what i was told that's wrong. I'll creek in the next segment but anyway that's we got coming up. I presume the show's going to be over about two and a half two hours forty five minutes. I can't imagine going much longer than that but should be easy nine for me. Pay per view when the show's over myself and vinnie. Yes he's all right and craig. We'll be doing our live post show. Only it is live only for twitch dot tv slash f for w video subscribers if you're a wrestling observer dot com subscriber or a video that if we're w online dot com subscriber you'll get the replay soon as it goes up which shouldn't be that long but if you want to watch it live never what might happen. Live twitch dot tv slash affordable. You video so we're gonna go over all of the matches for the show tonight. We've got ratings or not the ratings but the odds at one point people really cared about the odds but seems to me. Nobody cares anymore. Maybe because they have largely meant nothing of late but we have those and a lot of other news as well and when we come back from break we will talk about the death of new. Jack passed away a couple of days ago. Fifty eight years old resulting heart attack and should note that if you already subscriber lindstrom talk for about twenty minutes about memories of new jack on the daily show on friday and wrestling observer. Comes back in a moment. With mike zimmer v. and more wrestling observer live time we are small business report presented by dell small business training employees is key but so is having time to get your own work done so once. You have them trained. Be sure to give each other space. If you've got a good training program your staff should be empowered and competent enough to make most of the decisions that fall within their job role on their own. That will free each of you up to focus on your own tasks. Email is a great way to connect and the occasional face to face. 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Live with bryan alvarez and mike semper v on the sports byline broadcasting network in the show bryan alvarez here wrestling observer live and mixing also wrestling observer dot com new jack one of the more memorable figures in pro wrestling and the focus of an episode of dark side of the ring friday at the age of fifty eight due to a heart attack this from wrestling observer dot com. Bwi inside a first report. The news via his wife jennifer living in north carolina at the time of his death lawrence jerome young greensboro north carolina. New jack rose to prominence as one half of vigo 'gangstas with mustafa saieed. After a one year run someone wrestling. He incited found themselves w where they fit right in with the hardcore style and attitude of the promotion he inside when their team titles two times also held them one time with john cronies of the eliminators even after he left knee jad new stayed with ec w through the end of two thousand one involved in the infamous mass transit incident documented in season. Two of dark side where he bladed eric. Coolest a bladed him. All right eight experienced seventeen year old wrestler coolest blood so much through the cut required hospitalization fifty stitches new. Jack was eventually acquitted an aggravated assault charges lawsuit against he and he. Cw failed in court. He worked the indies from the nbc. W through twenty one notably working for tna xp w combat zone wrestling among others during that time us involved and other controversial incidents matches with vic grimes and gypsy joe documented on the dark side episode final entering action april twenty twenty one tag team match in tampa florida. That vic grimes deal you never said they were. Battling on top of the scaffold. I'm talking this was a tall scaffold. And there were like like three tables or something stacked on top of each other some sort of madness and he threw vic grimes off the scaffold and vikas just like crashing through stuff and if i recall correctly vic like hit the top rope and then that bounced him into the ring which may have saved the guys like it was like it was insane and much of what new jackie. It was completely insane and of course people remember all of the things that he did that were completely insane but as far as like his professional wrestling career in the ring. I mean one of the things about new jack. That was one of the best things about new check and there were the best things in there were the worst things. What are the best. Things was new. Jacks ability to cut an awesome. Promo the passed away. I was scrolling through my timeline. And like everybody's putting up all these new jack promos which you want to pay tribute to new check. It's probably better to put some promos and some other stuff and these promos unbelievable scott was an unbelievable promo so obviously there was the good and the bad with new jack. The day he has passed away. He has left behind his wife. And if you head up to my twitter scroll down a little bit. There is a link to the gofundme me to help with funeral expenses and a lot of other things For his wife's he can head up there and check it out or just go to go fund me and type in new jack. i presume. that's the only one up there so sad story and mike any thoughts on new jack a character. You can only find in pro wrestling that is for absolutely is absolutely the case One of those guys with this moved peacock his career. And how it's going to remember is going to be hurt a little bit because unless wwe amine it's hard to release a lot of new. Jack promos you know what i mean. It's hard to play a lot of his matches because natural born killers played over. And they're not gonna pay for the rights of that. Every time the air new jack and a lot of the promos that he had his best work was in smoky mountain. He had a lot of great stuff in dc. W that everybody remembers but a lot of that stuff unfortunately probably will never make it out of the vault In this current environment. So you know. It's unfortunate that you know. His career is far as the wrestling portion of it. A lot of it's going to be tempered but he's also a guy who i can't. I cannot think of nineties wrestling without new jack. But i couldn't tell you a favourite new jack match. I don't have one. i don't have one. But i cannot imagine ec w without him. I cannot imagine smokey mountain at that point him. Cutting those promos a can't imagine wrestling not having not having new jack and he's just he's just he was one of the more amazing unique characters. Who again if if not for pro wrestling. God knows what this guy would have done with his life but just an incredible character. Sad to see anybody pass away. You mentioned the go fund me if you can help out The people that he left behind but but truly a remarkably unique character that again unfortunately because a peacock. wwe owning pretty much entire career. It's gonna be interesting to see how they decide to market a guy like that if they ever do down the line xa'z wrestlemainia backlash which I personally don't like this show not this particular show. I don't mind anything on this. Particular show might even be a good show. I don't like the idea of a wrestlemainia backlash show. Because i'm an old man. And in my opinion the whole year should build to wrestlemainia and wrestlemainia israel. Blow everything off and you give away all the happy endings and everybody has a great time. And it's your big happy moment of the year and then you start over again for the next year. That's what russell me largely used to be now with this wrestlemania backlash show guys remember wrestlemainia last month so what happened was wrestlemanias last month and they had a whole bunch of things that they were going to do and then vince showed up on the last day at he changed a bunch of finishes and i forget the number but it was like if i recall correctly. Eighty percent of the heels one and wrestlemainia. Because the idea was well wrestlemainia. Now leads to wrestlemainia backlash so we got get a lot of heat on wrestlemainia. We got to put a bunch of heels over at wrestlemainia that way. We have something for wrestlemainia backlash. So i don't like the idea of that. I think that the wrestlemainia show should be where you blow off all the foods and you get a bunch of happy endings. Then you start over again the next show but one way or the other. This is the lineup for the show. Here we have roman reigns and sorrow for the universal title. Bobby lashley drew mcintyre braun strowman in a three way for the at w. e. title relievers versus charlotte for the raw women's title. Ray and dominik will be facing the dirty dogs. Try to become the first ever husband the husband. Well i mean he's been now he's not dominant husband father tag team champions Ziglar and robert rude challenges. Obviously young bel air vs bayley for the smackdown women's title and damian priest versus the miz in a lumberjack match Mike what are you looking forward to if anything on this show and when he come back i'll wait 'til after the break. We'll do the odds. See if any of these. Uri surprised anybody. I'm hoping beyond bailey's good. I'm hoping that i'm not even worried about but the finishes are gonna be. I can see something screwy. Happening in this azzaro match with roman reigns. But you know i hope. The match itself is going to be awesome after watching on friday that they haven't added barron corbin inches knocking work to the pre show. But i guess we still have time by the way. He wants to bet that when shameless does he open challenge. Umberto correal accepts. Well 'cause gotta be there him or man sewer right but both of them to three. You're allowed to do that in eight open challenge but i never thought about it once in my life until just now why can't like five people except it's like a six pack challenge or whatever you gave me an idea. Maybe they'll do that anyway. We get some time for the break. Here we go. Roman reigns sorrow for the universal title. Roman reigns at this. Point is a minus. One thousand favorite tells me that tells me that they did a poor job convincing anybody that sorrow had any chance of winning this title and i know they sure didn't convince me it's the usual me deal. They're okay with letting him lay some dudes out but as far as beating anybody and yeah that smackdown. I mean what was it. This friday was a d q because it was him. And jimmy you so in roman reigns just ran in. And then they shifted the heat's to jim houston roman reigns while sorry just like beat up jay in the ring as i. Can you convince me that can win. Because i don't believe it. I think anyone else does either. More odds after the break observer live. Here's an important covid in nineteen school system update for your local area. If you're concerned about your child's education please pay close attention to this message. The current school systems were not set up for at home learning. If you're worried that your child may not be getting the grades. They need to get ahead. Maybe losing self confidence or you're worried about them getting into a good college. Because of their grades help is available to you. Call the potential tutoring they can help within home or online tutoring and help your child with any subject and every grade level even for test prep. They're experts in the home. Tutoring and online tutoring field and confident. They can help you and your child get better grades today. Call now for your free consultation. Eight hundred six nine three eight two nine. Oh eight hundred. Six nine three eight to nine eight hundred six nine three eight two nine. Oh that's eight hundred six nine. Three eighty to ninety airlines have just reduced their prices even more thirty days in advance and save big. Want the absolute lowest prices on your airline tickets. Then call the low cost airline travel hotline right now for prices so low. We can't publish them anywhere. The only way to access our low rates and save up to seventy percent is to call save hundreds on your vacation tickets by calling right now. You can fly anywhere in the world and pay discount prices on your airline tickets. Go flight today to london. Paris madrid or anywhere. Else you wanna go and pay a lot. Less guaranteed call the international travel department right now at low cost airlines eight hundred seven five four four five three one eight hundred seven five four four five three one eight hundred seventy five four four five three one. That's eight hundred seven five four forty five thirty one attention to anyone. That's written a book a wants to write a book. The process is not that complicated. Take a first step. Even if you write a page today you build momentum and your book will become a reality. The hard part is getting it published. That's when you need to call page publishing. They've got hundreds and hundreds of thank yous from different new authors. Just like you they make the process of publishing your new book and getting it sold online a simple process. You can learn how simple it is right now by calling for your free page publishing new author submission kit one quick three minute phone call. That's all it takes to get free information and learn how you can get your book published. Pick up your phone right now. Called us twenty four hours a day at this number eight hundred six. Oh three oh eight. Eight five eight hundred six. Oh three zero eight eight five eight hundred six. Oh three oh eight eight five. That's eight hundred six zero three eight eight five. You're listening to wrestling observer. Live with bryan alvarez and mike semper. Vv on the sports byline broadcasting network is here wrestling observer live reveal wrestling observer dot com more odds. Bobby lashley drew mcintyre braun strowman right now lashley minus three hundred compared to mcintyre at plus two fifty and stroman plus five hundred. Know that means big old baron stroman. I think is going to be doing the job. Which in fact i think as well then you can go back because he do it for lashley. Of course. there's no way. Drew mcintyre should pin braun strowman to win the title. He needs to pin lashley. Got a buzz again by the way dude. Thank god is the final day after worry about that. Oh yeah yeah this new mike better work. It will work. I know it'll work now when you said that too. Are you replacing the microphone itself or me. I mean mr with mike and that doesn't work. Then you're out of your fair enough. Is this buzz could be coming from you. I have one microphones. Got a transformer in it because it's from the sixties and you put it by that monitoring buzzes for an hour and you mike without a transformer. So they have to worry about that anymore. So you complained about the monitor. Nothing i can do about the monitor here. Okay let me one. You're gonna buy me. A new pneumatic desk. What he wanted to come complete. Rhea ripley charlotte flare. Rhea ripley is an oscar. Forgot about oscar three way. How could i forgot about. Oscar's just been doing clean jobs everywhere. The last several weeks rhea ripley minus two fifty charlotte flare plus one fifty oscar plus six hundred and when things ask as any chance rey and dominik are now minus four hundred favorites to win the tag team titles which they absolutely should. They actually should've built up from day to build the titles but they did the usual thing. Which is they start the angle. Then they kill the angle. Then they're just to dorks for longtime we decided. We're going to make them champions. It's like your debit me way. It's like ramos has to learn to be humbled for a while before we could put a belt on him why he couldn't do visit wrestlemainia. Either remember you couldn't do it at one of the two days wrestlemainia. We only get a promo from the the dirty dogs on night one in that sits because we had to build towards peacock. I guess we need. We need something special for the people. We got Bianca minus one thousand over bailey. That to be good yes it would as an actually that was exactly. What's ruining your. It would make no sense to change that title. The soon hell notes correct and ms lumberjack match dany priests minus four hundred favorite. Odds are a lot bigger. Then somebody if not many will interfere arts. Odds are a lot bigger. Then somebody if not many will interfere. Anyone can translate that. I will pay pal you ten dollars. Let let me give it a shot in my brain The odds would be better for damian freeze if it wasn't a lumberjack match where the odds are very good that somebody's going to interfere. Maybe not are a lot bigger that somebody if not many will interfere All right i get. I get the ten bucks try mike. So is your chance to get paid on the show. What do you think the odds are if you had to give them money. Line on the odds of somebody or a lot of people interfering. Which one do you think it's going to be can you. Can you set odds for those people. It's a lumberjack match. Th there will guaranteed be a big royal rumble outside the ring. Can you envision away where you don't give damian priest the yes. Wwe and that's sad. And that sad. But i obviously. I cannot imagine deeming priests losing this match. I would hope not. It would be obvious. Morrison would screw something up but then again. I'm still not exactly sure. Why damian priests for a lumberjack match to begin with in the first place because he wanted ms ruining away. Why in chess i steel cage. Because he didn't because quite frankly in a cage match. The gimmick is that everybody runs away. The gimmick is that everybody gets out of the cage so actually damian precepts smart guy he knows. Well there's one match where guy can't run away. it's a bunch of dorks outside the ring. They knew they were giving him a barbed wire fence. So based on fast national smackdown one point seven seven million viewers point four eighteen forty nine. It's worse number. Since they began going to the thunderdome even when they went to the thunderdome august of last year may a horrible number. And you know what somebody predicted that now that it would be this bad but they predicted like raw was down at x t was down w is down. They said like for whatever reason i think wrestling viewership is just on this week and smackdown. It's gonna be down and obviously the nba playoffs are going to be affecting that here soon. And they're currently. Nba games going on but at things will be down for everybody going ahead with the nba. But i don't know they they call that one so i wouldn't disguise not falling bad number but There you go you ever go charleston wednesday. Now there is no chart. There's no charts will give the chart to i presume like the nba number one. But you know. There's there's a decent chance that that aws still like in the top ten. Maybe even the top five. I don't know what was on cable. That night and seem like there was a lot of stuff people were talking about so it was still nine hundred and thirty thousand viewers or something lady. Yeah it could try to figure out why were trying to poke fun at that number because it was only because people wanted to be like it was coming off a show that did very well and they figured that it was a lineup. With that were titled matches. There were was moxley nagata. The bucks were wrestling. They just figured the shows could probably do one point one so being down that much they thought was terrible. It was not terrible now. The eighteen to forty nine demo. That was a big drop. I don't know what happened there. That was certainly not good. But i don't believe the sky is falling. Teddy be aussie show up on next on wednesday. Got a lot of people wondering what this means. There've been a few few suggestions. I've seen wraps teddy is buying an xt. That'd be wist really. I got a lot of money you would actually be funny is if teddy bear showed up after after a humiliating cameron grimes for all these weeks and he showed it to announce that he was going to buy an exte- but then at the last second like on that last nitro cameron drives pop seventy says no. I finally outbid you and cameron grimes tea. And he would be in charge for a period of the one. I'm thinking about the interaction between him and regal on a weekly basis in that excites me very very much. But you know how this stuff goes. Wwe you like your boy cameron. Grimes you don't wanna see him. Destitute and broken lane on the side of the road. Fagin stephanie for a job because he lost all of his money in the strip mall. I would have a feeling that there would be forces. Working against cameron grinds as the owner of annex t. Who would try to take this all the way from. I fear about this investment. He's already probably lost a bunch of doj coin. I don't know if he's the right move. Doug other thing too is he could show up any can say you know what i don't know how we'd say this. They have to come up with some good thing but it shouldn't it with cameron. Grimes getting the million dollar belt. He's the new million dollar man. Yeah i don't know about that. See i like the. I think that's the most likely scenario. I would like that idea. I just ben. Where do you go. I as it i'll pull. We'd have to see how that would play out. I just. I don't know if i trust him where he's going to be the new million dollar man in walk around with the belt they can incorporate in the story lines or would this be an accessory he could have as well as all of his other things. I always knew how to get chat going. Doug they just go crazy. It's it's not the dirty dosier. It's the da. The doj is the coin as the meme old man. If there's one man on his show who's old mike. It is the man who has. Factually the oldest net is you know. That's you actually by a couple of months now that no i'm not eighty five and i try. How does one tank tops brand new anything else. You paid for that so last night we see as well if you guys actually got jon moxley up the end of the gw draft day show ended up being laid out by nick gage. The story of jon moxley is a story of time being a circle. Here he is. He was a death match guy that he went to w. e. then he became a member of the shield then he became a sports entertainer and whatever that disaster was then he left and he would say w any became the w champion then he became a father and he would back out on that death match scene while he didn't become a team pregnant didn't become a father yet but he's a father. The baby exists inside a belly. There is no baby right now. he's a father right now. You know that man told that poor woman who is pregnant with child that he was gonna go run. Probably go get some cigarettes down at the gas station. And then all of a sudden she's got to watch as his her husband shows up crazed boston into a g- w and fighting with with nick gage not only in the building but then outside down the street who knows if i could still be going right now. They be halfway to like salt lake city or something like that. Maybe in filthy. Tom wallers basement right now. Who knows if that fight is still going on in vegas. Well can tell you that. It's not in filthy. Tom's basement was that. Because i promise you. I would have heard about that unless it was part of a taping for new japan. Strong and then you tell me eating. It's kind of a friend is sky putting putting an end e. nda above friendship. I want an end up to you that moment. That can moan observer. Life prescription products require completion of an online consultation with an independent health care provider and are only available. 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And you can get yours at relieffactor dot com or by calling one eight hundred five hundred eighty three eighty four your life your freedom get back to living at relieffactor dot com. You're listening to wrestling observer by with bryan alvarez and mike simple. Vv on the sports byline broadcasting network show bryan alvarez here wrestling observer live mexican reveal also wrestling observer dot com or go to all these old phones here moment. Shaw nothing like a sunday in the program not break out of the beer. Mike come on to texts. I wanna read because very important text message versus million dollar main character. Based on as vince mcmahon therefore it is reasonable. I think the current million dollar man character is also based on the current day. Vince mcmahon. Meaning he will just continue to humiliates. Grimes as vince us to all modern day talent. Not named roman reigns that about that memory. Yeah but what if He's completely crazy and out of his mind. We really want to see that on camera grimes. We really want to see the next tv. Teddy biaz he making a decision then five minutes later changing it. Do we really want to see this on programming. We see it enough for real. I don't know but you know what i saw real yesterday. This person says need an update on that. Ufo's citing dude. What was that about bro. So last night it was. It was hot. Where i'm at and so i had this window open over here and i'm sitting over on this chair. I'm trying to watch smackdown. it's like. I don't know ten fifteen at night and there's these two blocks outside my window neighbors and they're just loud can be an irritation because ten fifteen at night rather just yelling about stuff and one of the guys going. Yeah well you could always use them zip ties like what's going on out there. I'm just getting irritated. I'm certainly sweat even though the windows. Open these two guys. you're taking me. Ellison one goes what the hell is. That goes what is that. And i'm i'm now i'm like wondering what's going on with zip ties because i'm never seen anything like that. What is that thing and then one goes. Hey come on out of here and then you know some other blokes come out of the house and like whoa. What is that thing. And then it's like okay. What's going on outside so run downstairs. I run out the front door. Look around in the sky and sure enough. There is a u. f. I've no other way to describe it. So i tweeted this later. And everyone's got like a million. And i think i know what it was which i'll explain in a moment but the first thing everyone's saying is like oh it's a shooting star it's a meteorite. Or whatever am fred. Explain everybody that first off i. I've seen a million satellites okay. Satellite looks like a star that just slowly trans verses the whatever that is up there the sky scott just kind of it was dot and then if you've ever seen pictures like of the night sky and you see like a picture and it'll be like a star but because of the time lapse the stars like moved and it's like a long straight line you know that's that's time off so i took pictures of these things i couldn't believe my eyes and it's a long thin thing. It was long and thin. A long thin thing in the knights luminated. Everybody look up in the air yes. What's your pinky up. Like your doctor. Evil okay and then look at the length of this little digit right here. Okay that is how long this thing wasn't the sky. It's just moving nice and slow across the sky like it was a it was a long thing wasn't a dot something like what in god's name is that and so i wouldn't. I tweeted about it at. I put up three pictures and all sites are getting people like this guy is in orleans. I just saw the same thing in oregon and in this guy goes i just saw him here in the antero and some other guys wherever he was at so. I knew i wasn't crazy because now there's multiple witnesses of this thing right here and then i'm starting to think like okay. Wait a second if it were like if it's a long thin thing in the sky and i'm looking at it from where i at if someone else is seeing this on -tario that things got to be huge. Were there also mushrooms now. We also have the same thing at the same time. So everyone's give me all these things. And i'm like bro. I've seen a million shooting stars. It's not a shooting star. It was not a. It's not a little dot like it's like a long thing so is it turns out as it turns out. I lot of Investigating 'cause that's what i do. Because i'm not a crazy person and Startling satellites have been deployed it. So when i first heard. It's the startling satellite as like. No it is not a satellite. That's impossible but it turns out that the startling satellites are released in a line. So where's it looked like a line. It was actually like seven satellites all in a row so when you see them it actually looked like one long solid line but in fact it was not a solid line so the startling satellites had been released over the last couple of days and so in fact i'm ninety nine percent sure that's what i saw but man i mean i had never seen anything like that. I was absolutely positive that it was something. And i wasn't out of my mind now. Has there been any reporting on this locally from lake. Cairo or anything. Yeah because actually some some bloke from cairo He he said. I want us your picture for the news. So they were doing a story on it. And then once people started telling me about these sky-link satellites thing it's elon. Musk fella thirty thing. this guy ain't doing. I went online and googled. It in the pictures online are in fact the same straight line that i saw so at that point as a level headed individual. I have concluded that most likely eyesight chain of starling satellites but man. When i first saw that i was like holy smokes. Neighbors are going nuts. Elites people on twitter losing their minds as crazy. Anybody in your neighborhood thing like the rapture was coming or something like that and just start freaking out running down the street or something. No mike what is your neighbor. Need those ties for by the way did i don't know i didn't even i'd be real careful. That was that was the second weirdest part of the story. No pissed that guy off all right well. Anyway let's see what this this fellas gotta say on the line here from bedford err on the air. What's going on. Maybe he saw this. Ufo subdued not me. I did not see any weinstein. Such a fan of these triple threat matches since he's been to tonight needed. Okay hold on a second ryan ryan ryan. Why do you think. Vince lakes three ways. I would think he'd be like jim. Cornet think that. Unless you have that. Vincent man is like jim clarinet. I want you to answer me. This question honestly ryan. Why do you think. Vince likes doing three ways. I would have no idea. I would think he'd like singles matches. 'cause you have no idea. Thank you very much for the call ryan. Vince likes three ways because then he could take title off a guy without beating them he can steal pin this guy for whatever reason and i don't know why to be perfectly honest with the exception of the tippy top guys. Who never lose on the undercard. Like it's just weird like some guys you'll just beat ad nauseam and other guys. It's like well i mean we just have to have some sort of out for this person. Whatever it's an easy trope. One guy hits their big move. Somebody else deals to pin now. The guy that hit the big move is protected. The guy that steals the pin got the move the other guy. Whatever it's just a booking crunch it's a booking trope it sucks. That's why i pray. I pray to things. Okay there's a three way coming up this awa pay per view my to prayers after seeing the rapture the other night i two prayers are the day somebody does not pin somebody else to win the champions title which i do not think it's going to happen. My other prayer is that they just flat out say all three ways awro elimination style. And you could be d- queued. If your buddies running boom done at that point you can do all three ways you want. I don't care because you're not. You're not devaluing the title because the only way to win the title is still pinning the champion. If it's a three way you always have to pinch to people. You can't luck your way in. You can't steal pin. The champion loses bell without being pin. None of that stuff. Plus the d. q. thing ensures since there's like fifty eight w that the logical thing which is just like fifty people brought the entire matchel somebody wins. There's a reason that doesn't happen. Those are my two prayers. He knew one or the other. I prefer the one about the rules. But whatever mug. I still wanted lucia rules for the tag matches the way the structure of everything is now in the fact that the tag rope. Is you know been all but eliminated really throughout wrestling. You know for the most part. So i kind of wanted them to do that but as far as like tempering these roles absolutely. Because you're you're titled really should not be in three way matches especially when there's not some crazy blood feud to lead to it. You know what i mean. This is just it's happened stance because oh yeah. Two guys got knocked out. They happen to be the top two contenders and they decided to go in that direction. It's not like we've been building with a blood feud to get this thing so it doesn't really make any sense why it's happening so if you are going to do something like this you gotta make it. Mean as much as he can especially because we've talked about sorrow. Does anybody think kenny omega is gonna lose that title to orange cassidy or pack. I'm sure there's somebody out there. That's thinking that but i'm sure they're also deep in the minority. I'm not sure which was a better example of paranormal radio. My ufo story or ryan's last call. Let's see if he can top it now. I don't wanna see you can top. Not him the next person. We get crunchy. Let's go ding bat ryan. Still on the air. I draw he's just sitting there listening like like a creep. What are you doing sect lying on me. The dexter loomis of this show moore is dexter. Loomis by the way vanished. Maybe he's at the motel six with. Indy is shock. Ever returning to aws. Not what was the point of the ambulance being empty. Well the reason the ambulance was empty was because shack said. Let's do a deal where i put in the ambulance and then after the break. I'm not in the ambulance anymore. So that someday if i can come back i'll come back. That's what checks idea was and they went along with it need to go back to my home planet charles. And he'd see kenny. I know people say that. Like i'm a i'm just an adl sure. Whatever but i'm just gonna say the way things are okay. The way things are a w lot of the the wrestlers come up with a lot of ideas. Okay now endeavor to me a lot of people come up with a lot of ideas and they are just shut down left and right and nothing ever gets done that they want to do. They're just at the mercy of whatever vince once. And that's it and like if you're a tippy top star in a big name and you've been there forever if you're an undertaking. We can probably get some stuff through but for the most part you come up with your idea and you don't even bother or if you if you tell them the idea like a lot of the times never even happens. It's the opposite in aew it. Hey w the telecoms up with ideas all the time and not in every case but a lot of cases a talent will go up to tony. Kahn and they will say i got an idea. Let's do this. let's do it and that's the way things go now. Obviously when you when you operate that way in both cases they're going to be pluses and minuses endeavour me are shot down which quite frankly they may have been great ideas and if they tried it maybe something have worked at a person would have got over whatever but like a lot of them are just shutdown shutdown showdown in aws the opposite way people come up with a lot of ideas and then tony goes to it and sometimes ideas are are hits and sometimes the ideas are misses. I don't know what's the best way i do know that. It appears to me that the town seems to be much happier with the way that things go in a w with all this freedom as opposed to in the other company where they don't really have a lot of freedom so there's pluses and minuses with doing it both ways. But that's what shack wanted to do. And tony said let's do it. And so of course the negative here is they've been paying for this for like five months. Now shack vanished and everything that's check wanted to do. And tony said let's do that. Can a moment observer live. Are you sixty plus and love to travel introducing. The senior travel discount network brought to you by low cost airlines. Call us anytime day or night and save up to seventy five percent on your airline and hotel reservations. We can help you. Save a ton of money to fly almost anywhere. We have inside discounts over five airlines and five hundred thousand hotels worldwide. And when you call and mentioned the discount code sixty plus we'll give you an extra free night with your qualified air and hotel reservation now. You can get the best prices on air and hotel reservations with your phone. We make it easy and fast for you to save money and book a trip remember. Senior travel discount network mentioned the discount code sixty plus for your free hotel night with your qualified reservation. Call now eight hundred four nine three six one eight eight hundred four nine three six one one eight eight hundred four nine three six one one eight. That's eight hundred four nine three sixty one eighteen. The you need to sell your home if you sold a home before. You're remember how stressful and expensive it was sold dot com. Is here to help you sell your home for the most money and with the least amount of stress. There are new ways to sell your home that you've never heard of before you know there are companies will offer you cash for your home. 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So if you're fed up with a maintenance fees that keep on coming and what to learn if you can terminate your timeshare legally and permanently call today even if you've tried before and we're unsuccessful in getting rid of your timeshare call today and see if we can help. We offer complete one hundred percent. Unconditional client satisfaction guarantee. Make this completely free call and learn how we can help you. Legally put an end to your timeshare nightmare once and for all you have nothing to lose so call right now to qualify and receive a free consultation. Eight hundred eight hundred seven one six seven eight hundred eighty eight seven one six seven. That's eight hundred eight eight. Oh seventy one. Sixty seven paid for by airtime media. You're listening to wrestling observer. Live with bryan alvarez and mike vv on the sports byline broadcasting network here. I thing every single time. I tried to ram this. Hey everybody they don't tonight gonna make it a long way to go to ninety. I gotta i gotta story. I can't even tell on the air for real nothing big story to tell know you got to. You're going to reveal this it for tomorrow. Not tell the story. i said. I couldn't tell on the air. You death mon- now listen in a moment eh. Moment moments from now. Debbie wrestlemainia backlashes on the air. I think the show is going to go about two hours. Forty five minutes or so. That would be nine. Forty five from the show is gonna end within five minutes at the end of that program. Me vinnie craig. Live twitch dot tv slash f four w video that's our channel twitch dot tv slash affordably video. We will be doing a post. Show rain down the entire pay per view the good the bad and the ugly coming up live for which homeys and if of course the show goes longer will start later obviously since manasseh question there but anyway they're replay variable wrestling observer dot com as well as video dot affordable. You online dot com. That'll be our second show. My second show here today and then later on tonight. Myself and dave meltzer will be reviewing the show talking all the news as well all of that at wrestling observer dot com so a lot of very exciting stuff happening tonight and yes vinnie. Did get his second shot yesterday. And he's apparently alright aside from a headache so he's doing the show tonight that means the countdown is on the return of vinnie. Veto this studio coming up free. Known everybody's gonna be very exciting. The s old rep. Mike always colors listeners. Every the studio. We'll talk to you later on tonight. Wrestling observer live. You're listening to the heartland newsfeed. Ready nip work at live dot heartland feed dot com. This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by you follow us on facebook twitter and instagram pushing for a ceasefire. I'm joe chiro fox news. Us ambassador to the united nations. linda. Thomas greenfield says. The united states has been working tirelessly to seek a ceasefire rayleigh palestinian conflict the united states on hamas and other palestinian groups in gaza to immediately halt rocket attacks and other provocations. We also deeply concerned about the ongoing intercommunal violence within mix communities in his role. We're all parties so actions that undermine a peaceful future thomas greenfield warned that the current violence will only put a negotiated two state solution. Further out of reach. Israeli airstrikes on gaza city flattened three buildings and killed more than forty people today. At least two people are dead and more than one hundred fifty injured after bleacher collapsed at an uncompleted synagogue in the west bank. The bleacher was packed with ultra-orthodox worshippers british police arresting four people. After videos were posted on social media that appear to show violent anti semitic language being shouted from a string of cars driving through london. Where and when to wear a mask. There's still uncertainty after the cdc issued new guidance at fully vaccinated. People don't need to wear masks. Most circumstances white house chief medical adviser. Dr anthony found she expects further. Clarification soon. what they'll be doing now is coming out very quickly with individual types of guidances so people will say well. What about the workplace. What about this. What about that. And i think that's going to be clarified pretty quickly. I would imagine within a period of just a couple of weeks. You're gonna start to see significant clarification of some of the actually understandable and reasonable questions. Found she on cbsn's face. The nation america is listening to fox. News did you know that. Cleopatra dated three different emperors. You would if you watch the series. Women who made history on curiosity stream launched by the creator of discovery channel. Curiosity streep is the opposite of mindless tv. This is non-fiction entertainment created by award. Winning filmmakers available on any device satisfy your curiosity for less than two bucks. A month at curiosity stream dot com slash fox. That's curiosity stream dot com slash fox as talk continues about. Who will win seats in the house in the coming year election security and integrity are concern new york republican congresswoman. Funny come fox's sunday morning futures election integrity and election security is a top priority for the american people. And it should matter to you whether you're republican democrat or independent. This is why you're seeing state legislatures like florida like arizona. Taking action to address and strengthen their election systems we need voter identification weenie chain of custody when it comes to the absentee mail in ballots. Signature verifications funding was recently elected to replace congresswoman liz cheney for the number three republican leadership position in the house. I revamp for britain's royal family. But this time in waxworks gear after leaving england for california prince harry and wife mega nosso have a new home. Madame toussaud's wax museum here. In london having been moved from the royal section after leaving their royal duties the duke and duchess have reemerged in the hollywood sewn leaving behind the queen and prince charles and joining. George clooney angelina jolie. The museum reopened tomorrow after a lengthy corona virus shutdown it london simon. In folks news the new miss universe will be crowned this evening following a year and a half delay the sixty ninth miss universe. Coronation will happen this evening. At the seminole hard rock hotel and casino. Hollywood in hollywood florida the covid nineteen pandemic delayed last year's event which means after beanie tunzi of south africa one in december of twenty nineteen. She will have worn the crown longer than any other. Miss universe the. Us has represented by miss usa asia branch. This year's event is hosted by mario lopez and former miss universe winner. olivia culpo. You can the miss universe pageant tonight on the f. y. network at eight o'clock eastern on jay powers fox news jolt euro. Here's some breaking news. That is very good for your business. Indeed now offers you everything you need in one place get instantly matched with quality candidates whose resumes run indeed. Fit your job description then schedule and interview top picks. All in you're indeed dashboard. 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Here's a look at weather from the heartland news feed weather center wednesday mostly sunny with a high near sixty one wednesday night clear with a low around thirty nine thursday sunny with a high near sixty five. That's the latest weather. Check out more news and weather on our website at heartland newsfeed dot com. Well this is free talk live. I'm anticipating hearing markets some point but it appears as if they're technically standby just one moment. Can you hear me now. Hey it turns out that there's a button and it needed to be pressed. Go figure in a studio full of buttons and failures all. I m glad. It wasn't button. I was supposed to press. Yeah this one was not on. your side. Market was online so a apologized but feel free to go ahead and introduce the show to our listeners. Do that a second time. This time over the airwaves. Six three two eight three sixty one sixty. It's free talk live and you are free to call in and talk. Live here on the airwaves. That's what we call it. A free talk live if it's between seven pm and ten pm eastern time seven days a week. We're here taking your calls. It's mark with you and henry henry back on the air second night. How could you keep you away. Let's give you a quick introduction just so people know who you are. You're able what longtime broadcaster the tampa bay area and you win. You get your first radio program. I program i was involved in was the but beck show which was two thousand and three who thought he was going to come down and be the liberal rush limbaugh and he picked katherine harris. Is we don't have to go all the way back. But anybody remembers the election of two thousand bush. V gore knows who katherine harris is. He decided he was going to launch it from the home of katherine harris and the only thing that he really launched was my chance to take over him in two thousand four. Did morning drive here. Several years got questions. A liberal talker. Thought they were going to launch their show from katherine harris's house a republican supporter. I don't get it not from her house from her community where her house seat was. I see what you're saying. Yeah i'll bet the more were amazing. The more farfetched idea was that they were going to launch it from ww. Hugh are fourteen ninety. Am the thousand watt mega station on the manatee river. But anyway i do that. Took over did morning drive on this station. Forty-ninth for about five years when up to tampa got on a fifty thousand watt station on the weekends for two or three years came back here and then miscellaneous other stuff mainly it was liberal progressive. Talk left-of-centre talk whatever you want and till finally came back in two thousand seventeen thi- thinking of great to talk about president trump and i found was no fun whatsoever so i switched cryptocurrency and bitcoin. Mls name is range by the way was american am when we started henry ratio by the time it was. I got that from tony. Little to the What what what is that. Nordictrack like rip off that he does I'm not sure. I've heard him interviewed on howard stern and he was like. Why is everything. Tony little this tony little that and he said well because the only thing i really own is my name. I thought that was great. Advice that thing to say sure so right and of course. Free talk live is Much more of a libertarian program. But i'm always happy to have you on the air and whatever your points are. I'm i'm glad to hear him. What do you got for show. Prep tonight well. we've got. I've got two things. I've got the big. The billionaire kind of stuff and i got the poor oppressed individual. I'm not sure which one the libertarians would like. But i suggest to you. I opine that elon. Musk needs to be banned from twitter. Much like donald trump. I can libertarians. Go ahead the other. One is an eighteen year old boy in one thousand nine hundred ninety three. I guess eighteen year old boy man. Hearkening back to la. Yesterday's show had sex to sixteen year. Old boys sixteen but it wasn't illegal to for the eighteen and sixteen year olds to have sex but because they were all male. The state of montana called it crimes against nature and so he was a sex offender. It looks like he served. I believe who was about eight years seven years in prison and they don't want to take them off the sex offenders list. Now i think this is a very interesting story so okay. Nineteen ninety-three right. Eighteen years old. his name is randall manages. Mng he's at camp ranch. A ranch a ranch brokeback mountain. Come out honourable that. Well okay. ninety. Three's now that was really. It was after ninety three. I didn't know if they were inspired or something like that. There's probably been more than one case of play doctor at camps. I'm trying to decide if this ranches camp or not i. I could see an eighteen year old being sent to camp. I mean you know. It's your last year of school or something like that or the back something something. I dunno ranch in idaho. Montana gets into the somehow but that's where the The event occurred seem strange. That montana would be incarcerating individual over. Or perhaps it's the montana second well he he was seven years in prison and then he was required to register as a sex offender after in two thousand and three is when the supreme court overturned all the state laws against homosexual activity and until this week when a federal judge ruled that montana where he is now listed as a sex offender has no reason to require him to do that. having this is quoting the judge having consensual intimate sexual contact with person at the same sex does not render you a public safety threat. It may render you a hazard too good sex but you know that's that's whatever your business your business not mine anyway. It doesn't increase the risk to states children. The judge or the state to remove menzies from its sex offender registry by may twenty-first of the clock. Ticking on that and a race any records that true that but that was not good enough for the montana attorney. General austin knutson and he's pushing back and he filed a notice on wednesday. They tend to appeal the ruling. And let's see what his logic is on all this and The way i i guess austin is as mail. I don't mean to presume anybody's I think we this story about gay sex. And everybody's male. Let's go ahead. No the the attorney general. Okay well austin good for him. People get creative with first name these days anyway. This case involves the lingering affects i. I don't. I don't really see an in this explanation. What the attorney general's. When when i go in through the story it was my understanding it was just. It was an inconvenience to take him off the list. Like we've got a list here. It works in a certain way and your ruling here. Judge goes against what we're doing well because he was mark non compliant with the rules. Also so if you're non compliant with the rules that you don't have to comply to state have that's an interesting question right so if you're incarcerated in prison and you receive disciplinary reports in prison but then you're released because you're falsely incarcerated. The disciplinary reports are irrelevant. So i'd have to say that the noncompliance rules on the sex offender risks and they has also other repercussions because he was in a homeless shelter and hadn't registered as being a homeless shelter. Is his home. Yeah this is a. Let's just see what prison did this guy right like. He's at a homeless shelter shelter. He was working at a ranch. Head was complying. They had to throw him in jail for seven years for gay sex and now he's a mess Say the state. The state's really mess this guy up by the sounds of it and to make one more wrinkle to a very wrinkled suit here that the he no longer lives in montana but he wants to return to work on a ranch or on a rodeo and then you really gotta go to montana. Montana's certainly one of the places. You're going to be working ranch rodeo. He's loved horses. Nancy was six years old he might be added to that list. He's not careful crimes against nature winds veterinary nursing. We'll good for him sort of straight line for the rodeo. Burke is six zero three two eight three sixty one sixty six. Oh three two eight three sixty one sixty here on free. Talk live recruited search and rescue officer. Marshall hunter was resigned to a life of rescuing wayward space fares and derelict satellites. But when a billionaire couple goes missing his own ship is disabled during the rescue with communication satellite suddenly failing and lunar mineral shipments disappearing and transit. Necrosis max it's more than a coincidence and hunter must choose between salvation and sacrifice to save his crewmates and their civilian charges frontier by patrick giles and being books dot com. Are you tired of governments. Murdering people around the world stopped using their money. There is an alternative. Bitcoin is a stateless free market. Non-political currency bitcoin cannot be inflated or controlled by any government by using their money. You are helping the state. You have an incredible alternative available now. Learn it uses it spread. It get started with bitcoin at bitcoin. Dot com. that's bitcoin dot com the l. r. n. dot fm social media channels have been revamped eliminated facebook and focused on other platforms like twitter and mastodon the decentralized alternative to twitter on our accounts you'll find posts from multiple l. r. n. dot. Fm show hosts together in one place. Follow us on twitter at twitter dot l. 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So drop in and say hello at forum dot shire society dot com. Our matrix server is about as free as internet chat can be joined the existing rooms or create your own at chat dot freetalklive dot com A free talk live call in talk about whatever is on your mind. Its mark with you and rearrange here and you're welcome to call in talk with me. Yeah no that's the whatever whatever. It is one of a premise. You had agree with any or me or both or neither the number six zero three five trying to get the wrong number six three two eight three sixty one sixty henry. We got rid of our toll free line probably about a year ago. Maybe a little less. We kinda thought nobody pays long distance fees anymore. What's the point in keeping a toll free line where people are calling it for free but we're paying for them to be online at your grandparents to call that And my grandparents like most people's are past and they So we we just went to the regular phone line of course The six three area code is the same area code as oh my home telephone number and my office line and my cell line in a variety of other mess it up when you speak. That's the reason. I'm trying to give out different numbers That i'm remembering given time six zero. Three two eight three sixty one sixty call in and talk about whatever is on your mind. What we're talking about here is a situation in the great states of idaho nevada. Apparently a montana. The i'm sorry. I meant to say montana me Idaho and montana looks like three young men who were at a ranch I'm not exactly sure why they were ranch. But it was Two sixteen year olds eighteen year old. They engaged in consensual sex and dispute. That is not in this case and montana. A was it. Idaho the in which the critic ho. Okay we're at all happened. Idaho didn't have a law against hamas against Sex between eighteen and sixteen year olds. Which i think is probably a bad thing. I mean generally if you if you can have a high school if you can go to jail for a high school senior. Go to jail for having sex with a high school junior. You've probably got a bad law. That's what i'm saying. So sort of got the reverse from the way you said that but now i'm glad you clarified yes. I think it's a bad. Because we're in agreement. I think it's also bad for A law to say High school seniors can have sex with high school freshman. I think if you're going to put them in the same school put them in the same institution with each other. I get it it's dicey but that's more of an argument against public school than anything else or at least the highschool arrangement i. It's bad to put eighteen year olds. Fourteen year olds in the same institution and expect things to go particularly well okay. Didn't you see abuse in highschool henry of the teachers and the students are just the seniors in the freshman. All of that. I don't think those are equivalent in which is how we got off a weird tangents yesterday but okay mark if you want to keep the seniors away from the freshmen senior. Girls are always looking for their prey in the freshman always not the way it goes the other way. Yeah and so anyway. Probably never worked for me either. So i had no game in my freshman year i know. How are you supposed to. You barely learned to brush your teeth and get your hair combed your a mess and freshman was down in middle backed by the end of my freshman year. It was the seven tacoma. But that's when. I got a brush. All i'm saying is that i would defend this. No matter the genders of any of the parties in this particular situation as long as. Everything's consensual so. Idaho came up with This crimes against nature law. Toss this guy in jail for seven years for consensual sex and then this is you know. This guy is younger than i am. I'm fifty years old. This is a relatively young guy He then goes to montana. Montana says your sex offender because reasons then the whole gay marriage thing blows up across the nation and everybody says no no no this to gay marriage no because it was the overturning of the crimes against nature sodomy laws against homosexual l. went together. It's about the same timeframe things okay. They are two separate things. It's two separate court decisions all right great in general these same timeframe if you consider like within fifteen years or so okay. Thousand three in the bush administration when the overturn the sodomy law. And i'm just wildly wrong. Great so the sodomy laws get overturned in two thousand and that's not to mean there aren't some crimes against nature that don't have anything to do with humans that we should keep on. I'm curious about what people would call crimes against nature but again i'm also fcc two hundred fcc. Licensed radio stations across the united states. So perhaps i ought to keep it You know giving on twitter rights considered a crime against but we'll get to that. I think that Twitter is going to be as big as it is. It ought to give everybody the right to say whatever they want. And you know what if you don't like cry in the corner for god's sake tweet tweet about it whatever it is. That's what i'm saying. Who are you referring to anybody who doesn't like you're looking at me and well you're in the room. The number six zero three two eight three sixty one sixty that six zero three two eight three sixty one sixty henry get ready for. Scott scott your free toggle. Freetalklive scott can here now. Captain is a audio issue. I don't think so. Everything looks appropriate. we do have the phone here. He screened just fine. Okay so maybe put him on. Hold on hold. If there's an unscreened coffee wanna try it. Otherwise i can screen it. Got it on screen. Call you're on free talk. Live roger that jimbo here jimbo. What's on your mind i've noticed Since the Basically orientals have Taking over the networks apparently always other on air channels are running old jimbo radio and the background down. We can hear that bleeding over and it's probably going to cause some fun stuff to happen. Better copy now go ahead. So jimbo have taken over. And what's the problem. Oh it's just Law enforcement and has gone from Bringing in the open to Sneaking around boy. He's always a friend actually dark and so forth. And i'm certainly familiar that but i still don't know what the premises The premise is productivity for them. The forwarding Their action and Blocking other nocco operators on the other side of the fence so any no interference with their operations. The point he's making really. Yeah that the The orientals are working with the police to stop the narco operations. That are coming from the other side of the fence. You took the words right out of my mouth. That's what's gonna think too i. I don't know ladies and gentlemen what that could possibly mean. I would say that. The war on drugs is You know a wild failure and at the police were never going to win it. Like to take this brief moment to congratulate drugs for winning the war on drugs like more people are doing drugs that we've had the door drugs. More people are under the poverty level that we've had the war on poverty and matter of fact now that we've had the war on covid. I shudder to think what's going to happen. You ladies and gentlemen every time. The government declares war on something that thing grows. And carl wachner. Longtime proponent of a voluntary society died last december. You may have seen his articles published on his website voluntary's dot com in his newsletter. The voluntary est the meese institute or elsewhere over the last forty years his newest book. I must speak out volume to the best of the voluntary. Ist is now available via liberty under attack publications. This four hundred and thirty page second volumes spans the years of two thousand through two thousand twenty and includes articles by carl. Wachner hans hermann. Hoppe karl hess benjamin. Tucker george h smith lie center spooner pete air joyce brand and many others. I must speak out for the newly initiated. The veteran volunteers store anywhere in between by the book now at liberty under attack dot com slash voluntary est for more great content on building a voluntary society. In for carl's extensive archives checkout voluntary est dot com. Hi i'm derek j. to me. An activist is calling his to actively work to advance. The cause for which. I work is personal freedom. I believe my life is best. When i engage in voluntary and self-government i reject the idea that anyone else has a higher claim to my life or my body than i do. I see people who themselves the government as a threat to my personal freedom. I realize you may feel differently but my relationship with the people who call themselves. The governor is completely involuntary if starbucks used some of its money to drop bombs. I wouldn't shop there. So why would. I support the american empire. The empire does not require by consent. Derek jays victimless crime spree. Watch it for free and ordered the director's cut. Dvd and victimless crime. Spree dot com. That's victimless crime. Spree dot com the new fourth edition of healing. Our world the compassion of libertarianism. We'll take your understanding of liberty to a deeper level and has ever thirteen hundred updated references new cartoons and a foreword by dr ron paul with discounts for multiple book purchases. The fourth edition of healing. Our world is a great for the liberals pragmatists environmentalists and christians in your life who think libertarianism is hearted get yours today at healing dot freetalklive dot com and use promo code f. T. l. for a five dollar discount. What if you want to hear the latest episode of free talk live but all you have is your phone. You forgot to download our archive and you have no data connection. You can call our listen line at six four one seven nine three zero one ninety one. That's a long distance number so you may incur charges if not listen as long as you want six four one seven nine three zero one ninety one. The free talk live. Listen line six. Four one seven nine three zero one nine one on free talk live. We're bringing people to the ideas of liberty. Every day from wrestling superstars like glenn jacobs you guys really are having an impact. I believe like. I said a lot of where i am. Now do listening to free talk. Live you change my mind on some very important issues years ago to random people tuning in on the radio i was stuck in the left right paradigm by her and your show by chance on saturday night from there i went on join the free state project and become an end flyer so i mean that's really the reason why am is because i know that if it wasn't for you guys being on are i never would have found the ideas of liberty. You're ample directly change. More lives by getting free. Talk live in front of people looking for talk radio online and on the air when you amp free talk live. You get perks. Like access to the only facebook group and amp podcast visit amp dot. Freetalklive dot com. You can stick to the man and big tech. Join our t. l. Social mastodon at social dot freetalklive dot com three. Todd live call in and talk about whatever is on your mind. The number is six zero three two eight hundred sixty one six six three two eight hundred sixty one sixty. It's mark your with you and rains here. In ray rains from the henry rain show. What what what website you had that are. Up and running right now entering. Actually if you wanna find some classic and rates like the bush obama years. I think if you google american. Am you'll find it on apple podcast and some other places like that. But you can also Google henry rain show and you'll find the declining years of the henry rain. Show there available for you. Were the good years the american. Am what. I don't understand that. Still aspiring to make money from radio in towards the declining years. I was like i gotta get back into healthcare. Which actually. I worked at a call room for for a little while for hover around to to get my feedback. Because you'd be surprise. I was an office practice manager for an orthopedic practice before i got into radio. And there's not a lot of doctors that wanna hire you to run their medical practice when your last job was talk radio host. I say so. I had to find a job that would transition me back into healthcare. And i was in the phone room on hover around. Which you you talk. I literally talked to about ten thousand people over two years. They not cold calling. they all had inquired. And then you you do your thing and at another time we could all delve into the the thing is have around and that. But i'm talking to you. You were talking to people that just live their life. Poorly is for health. Reasons contracted diabetes or copd. Maybe through no fault of own or the other people were like nine years old and their legs have just given out but they were still healthy and intelligent doing a radio show to myself like oh really. You're you're the first elected black City official in nineteen forty-six. Yeah that's pretty impressive. Oh you were on the olympic. Whatever the shooting team was female in europe in nineteen fifty that would be. I would have a great time. But i sort of wasn't making my quotas for us. Open chatting related. Well yet happy customers. What are you gonna do have happy memories or those lost customers. Depending on your point of view. The situation we were discussing here is story out of idaho and montana where three young men sixteen sixteen and eighteen had consensual sex at a ranch. Idaho decided to lock one of them up the eighteen year old. They didn't have a crime for eighteen. Year olds having sex with sixteen-year-olds locked him for crimes against humanity. Really say that they might have sent those sixteen year olds to juvenile detention where they could have been Saddam of their their crimes against nature. And it's certainly possible and then basically the problems. This young man has getting off the sex offender registry after this particular crime has taken off the books in two thousand and he's already received a judgment to that in montana but the montana state of montana attorney general is not going to let that decision yet life flat on his desk right. They'll we know je decision on this. I'm going to appeal. So yeah there we go. Let's go to scott calling in from florida. Scott the bigot. You're on free talk. Live good evening. Gentlemen how are you. All's well thanks good. I wanna talk about israel which is under constant attack and You know there's two sides to every story and You hear about always being poor. Israel wella palestinian people have been oppressed Ever since israel was created on may nineteen forty eight and hopefully the evil zionist entity. Mona's israel will be wiped off the map Is out is out far fetched No yes it is farfetched. What a bunch of people launching buckets full of concrete into israel is going to be successful well But someday if israel gets embroiled with a war with iran Different story and the mola's will not hesitate If israel ever. Ah because the reason why i mentioned that they keep Scott there's a greater threat to israel what's that there's a greater threat israel because as they try and necks and co-op those populations that surround them into a great in lars is state of israel. They are bringing in people. That are reproducing faster rate than they are and they are making themselves at risk of becoming a minority in their own nation at an increasing rate. You know diana's stole the land out from the palestinians in nineteen forty eight and they simply change palestine to israel zionists have never had think about it they have never had a single day of since they were established on may fourteenth nineteen forty eight and they never will. Nobody's their foams is that the people are fighting them. it's it's the scientists fault would at some point or another. Everybody wants to fight a about a piece of land. Maybe i just walk away. You know like maybe like. I don't want to deal with this anymore. I get it that many times. The palestinians can't walk away and that in many cases the jews can walk away. But i mean. I hear so much going on here. And both sides. Don't sound right tonight. Can i ask another question. Please please let me ask you a question. So you're talking about design in the context of after world war two and and plus the movement that preceded world war two was around in the twentieth century maybe before that but when moses came back from egypt and and then when he passed and joshua was sent and he conquered the people around the area of israel was that as i in this movement Anything to do with the establishment of the jewish people. Yes it is a scientist movement They didn't they didn't have a zionist movement. They even have many litter literate people. It was just what people did. people do. Still the cocker other people. And take their territory. Yeah well that's what the scientists did and after world war two Accused have used the holocaust if such leverage to hit everyone over the head And that's why they've been able to get away with this and also was the muslim taking over spain around one thousand ad. Are you sargon of cod scott. Thank you for the call. I you know when. I think about this whole situation i. It seems like both sides just kind of spit things out where palestinians there when The jews were given the gland by basically england and france after world. War two. Well yeah they were but were they landowners. How many of them were landowners. Why is that relevant. I'm not taking scott side on this. I'm just asking trying to figure out your logic. My logic is is that it's not your land. That's been taken from you if you sharecroppers the wealthy palestinian what if they're asharq on to a wealthy do no you said that if they were removing the other people from the wayne. I'm talking about in general through the course of history. This is something that it's true off the air about the other day about the monopoly of violence. And how it's used by the state right. And i would say that the in the case of jews they didn't actually invade right and they didn't take over they were sort of awarded Israel as opposed to being Know taking over as a as an invading army. So there's some distinction here but they were at the cusp at the end of when it was acceptable to conquer and takeover and Like you know. The reason that Japan extensively was attacked by the united states was the rape of nanking and the attack on china right. Well in part. I don't know how much time we have. So that's what i said. We did not want to power to rise against our empire. Actually the original plan of theodore roosevelt. How time he negotiated. The end of the russian japanese war was the they they would be our cats in the region. Well that's true but it's not a sensibly what we were told they just got to up the number six zero three two eight three sixty one sixty free talk live. I'm grateful to have heard from some of our satellite listeners. Recently i appreciate knowing that people are out there who like what we do and are willing to support it financially l. r. n. don. Fm's free to air satellite feeds blanket. Most of two continents. It was my goal to put our channel there. So people without internet could receive our programs and feed pirate radio stations. We started a fundraiser on patriotic. A few years ago to back the satellite channels. I recently announced that. I was considering canceling the feeds and donations increased from fifteen to twenty percent of our costs which are around one thousand dollars per month. 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The number six zero three two eight hundred sixty one sixty six zero two eight hundred sixty one sixty henry rain henry rains. Yeah mark edge. Pavlov's dog here too. You're you're cute. What a diverse group of callers. You have certainly have them so we just had got the biggest them. By the way. I wanna thank amplifiers real quick rich. Who is a platinum full fire. Thank you for supporting free. Talk live and if you wish to be thanked on the air and support free talk. Live support free speech support New ideas getting out on the radio. The currently aren't getting out on the radio Across you know entering into people's minds go to amp dot freetalklive dot com that's amp amp dot. Freetalklive dot com and support has as rich has a platinum amplifier. Gives twenty five dollars a month. We only ask for five dollars a month. Regular we give people options like nine men in one indeed women. We don't guess people. Germans indeed radio was this rich queue. It's amp dot freetalklive dot com and scout. The big brought up the palestinian situation. That's going on right now. Getting lots of news because well there's some missiles flying in both directions and the building with the associated press was demolished also housed aljazeera. Should also house hamath which a- big a of questions like chicken and egg like who rented i Tomas come in to use them for cover or did they think they would be close to sources by renting that or is it. The only building is still standing the suitable for a modern company to communicate from. And i think the israeli situation brings up lots of questions Let's solve it well. I don't think it's possible. But i'll go ahead and I i'd like to point some things out so Th there was the shape that israel was and then there's the shape that israel is and we're talking about a couple of areas the gaza strip which is currently in question and then The The golan heights serious. Old excuse me what's the what's the west. Thank you actually. We belong to jordan when Nineteen sixty seven war. And that's when the israelis occupied down right now. There was kind of an interim area where settlers win into the west bank continuing interim if there is such a thing detriment pies and ending but one wonders how israel supposed to protect its citizens if they go into this other sort of his own is this jordan. Is that israel. And there's a lot of complications. Gaza on the other hand is just kind of this. You know It's been very difficult for israel to handle. It's not it's not the same situation at all. These areas are you know different than they're not like one nation. They're not palestine for instance. Pardon me gaza and the west bank don't function as one nation right by any stretch of the imagination and and gaza is notorious The people in gaza are notorious for throwing anything over that wall they can throw their. It's also known as the largest outdoor prison in the world. Yep yep indeed and one would wonder one question that many people ask is. Why don't the muslims And all these other muslim countries take in these poor refugees well they actually did have refugees and they still have refugees and they still have refugee camps that people are now in their sixth or seventh generation of living in. Well why don't they just let them become citizens. Why don't we just bring him here. And be citizens i. I don't know the answer to that. I can tell that they probably aren't going to integrate into our society as well autocratic ruler. Why would you wanna create a group of people that were not necessarily loyal to you and let them build economic power within your power base. I would say that because if people if if good folks. I'm coming to your society that want to work hard. You're going gonna benefit. That would be already can employ all your people. The ones that are halfway loyalty you and now you're going to let this People that are other and have their own culture their own internal Hierarchy come in. No you keep them in the camp and you keep him their camp as long as you can until because you don't want him causing trouble for you and you can always say let's send them back to israel. Let them deal with them. And israel's not dealing with them they've walled them off and made what you said the largest outdoor prison. They've been given the opportunity multiple instances to sort of create their own country but they just can't create their own country. they were allowed to create their own country. I would challenge anybody out there. Listening to go to look at the original map from nineteen sixty seven just south of the occupied territories and then the autonomous zones that were supposedly set up for the palestinians. and then look a chronological. You can do it easily on google just chronology of of israeli settlements. And you'll see the changing color of the autonomous zones until it's just a checkerboard. Only checkerboards have bigger surfaces bigger areas than this. This is going to be just chewed up like cottage cheese too. Little enclaves the palestinians and israelis and you're never going to be able to create a palestinian state out of that and on the other hand you're never going to be able to create an israeli state of that because the people that you put into. These enclaves are reproducing. Faster than your people. And you're just putting off on. Just keep extending the fuse. I have heard a One proposal that i liked the sound of is that israel could have saved money by giving something like forty thousand to every palestinian At some point in the past. I don't know what it is today acres and a mule and sending them and then some other country would benefit. I mean you know. Suddenly these people would be a lot more valuable if they had. All palestinians have been able to agree. And i i know some that worked for Oil companies some the nice palestinian community as far as economically succeeding in sarasota to our south You know they're they were the most educated one of the most educated populations Going into world war two in the arab world but not anymore. Now you've got A situation where in gaza every time i mean the reason israel stopped concrete shipments into gaza's because they're shooting bombs made a concrete and over the wall. And i mean at some point or another. You have to not allow your nation to get attacked. I mean i'm not saying that. Like i said i just walk away but i'm not a nation. I'm a person. I just leave so i don't have any. You couldn't leave well if you're a palestinian. You can't leave. But as julia. Ken oh you if you were you would wanna go somewhere. Safer alarm. saying is is that i can see why israel the nation acts as it does towards gaza. Which is that every time they get something it seems if plywood they'd make plywood Things to shoot over the wall. It seems Gaza's just irascible and difficult to deal with and i can understand from a historical standpoint. But nobody seems to want to negotiate. No one seems to want to come up with some kind of solution and as many times it's been tried. I'm almost ready to say there isn't a solution. The solution same solution through history. What people with the power dominate the people without the power and use whatever it takes maintain the sense quo. Indeed that's kind of how it goes gaza's probably more homogeneous than even the west bank By the looks of the map. So i'm seeing here. It's a pretty big. I mean pretty big area. It's got coastal you can start country pinellas county. How big is we're saint. Petersburg clearwater is for people beyond the tampa bay area How big is Monaco how big is look. Didn't know how big is luxembourg. I mean these places as they actually have commerce and trade that goes freely back and forth through them. Well the reason that Hamas excuse me the reason that gaza doesn't have Trade that goes freely in part is because Every time they do. Hamas does something awful and you know. The people of gaza could do something about hamas folks if they wanted to. I'm not saying they're all responsible anymore than You and i are responsible for the actions of the us military or You know police in a given area. But i i can see why israel reacts the way it does do you. Well that's their policy. What would you do in the circumstance where they were trying to control a large population base. That was in opposition to my power. Well that would be much like any other Are you use violence to keep them down. Look i'm looking at democracy doesn't worse i mean there's rarely people have suffered plenty of violence against them as the people to when they in their took down all national borders and suddenly took a vote on every given thing that we wanted to vote on the chinese and the indians would have a huge voting block and americans would have basically nothing to say. I'm against democracy and just doing people to come in to give and groups and say. Hey i'd like to vote you know. And that's what i feel like is sort of being proffered. Is the solution here in no. I don't see that at all. I don't like the palestinians being treated badly. But i don't like initiations of force at all and people just keep going back and saying well he hurt me and then he heard me and then he heard me. There's not a solution. Six three two eight three sixty one. The taryn federation an- taryn league been killing each other for decades sheltered wealthy and light years from the threat. The members of the five hundred of no interest in changing that when rear admiral terrence murphy is given governorship backwater system. A risk free pass to wealth and power is his for the taking but murphy is a man of honor duty and responsibility. The intends to stop the killing. And whatever the cost governor by david weber and richard foxe from books dot com. Are you tired of governments. Murdering people around the world stop using their money. There is an alternative. Bitcoin is a stateless free market. Non-political currency bitcoin cannot be inflated or controlled by any government by using their money. You are helping the state stop doing it. You have an incredible alternative available now learn it use. It spread it get started with bitcoin at bitcoin. Dot com. that's bitcoin dot com my name. Is jacob hornberger. I'm president of the future of freedom. Foundation which congressman ron. 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This stream is supported by advertisers and contributions by follow us on facebook twitter and instagram white house. Trying to ease the conflict. I'm joe chiro. Fox news president violences palestinians and israelis equally deserve to live in safety insecurity. The president releasing video saying his administration will continue to work towards sustained. Comb president biden. Maybe in wilmington delaware at his home until tomorrow but other members of his administration and top advisors are paying close attention to this chaos going on in the middle east secretary of state. Anthony blinken speaking different counterparts in the area. We also know that defense secretary. Lloyd spoke with his counterpart in israel and un ambassador. Linda thomas greenfield addressed a virtual meeting today at the united nations and said people that live in that region. Have a right to safety and security functions. David sponge there have been a number of pro palestinian rallies. This weekend this one today in greenville south carolina hundreds also march today in chicago. The recent ransomware attack in the colonial pipeline has lawmakers from both sides of the aisle calling for more infrastructure security. California democratic congressman. Adam schiff. i think it really calls upon the government to insist that a lot of this critical infrastructure. That's in private. Hands be better protected in if means the government is going to have to set out minimum security standards cybersecurity standards for private industry and critical infrastructure. Then that's what we need to do. Schiff on cbs's face the nation a smoky wildfire in california's santa monica mountains has forced the evacuation of about a thousand people and la's to panga canyon area. There's no containment in the fire has burned about two square miles. No structures have been damaged. America is listening to fox. 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Check out more news and weather on our website at heartland new skied dot com number six. Oh three to sixty one sixty at six zero three two hundred sixty one sixty and you can talk about whatever you want we got sidetracked on the whole israel and palestinian thing. We got scott the biggest called in and henry. You and i are students of history. I wouldn't call us. Historians by any stretch collars. No definitely not but we try to stay up on these things and better than fiction. You liked to ask me questions that. Make me what it is. I think and i appreciate that and one of the reasons that you're on the air for that matter better than me having you know what i think. Yeah and it's When it comes to this israeli situation. I'd like to see the best solution Possible but i i it. It's such a conundrum such a difficult situation to You can't just encapsulated quickly. Libertarianism which i believe in is a simple solution to complex problems but there is no simple solution to this problem of the palestinian difficulties with israel. Up to this point. Save something as awful as genocide like In i'm definitely not going to have as a peace advocate. you're not gonna find me looking for that I can see why israel takes the position it does. I can see why the palestinians take the position that they do. I've talked to lots of people including the very rare palestinian jew about this situation and trying to come up with. I know they exist though Trying to come up with solutions this and it's not easy Let's take that you want me to call you. No i mean. Palestinian jew just means you're jewish and palestinian area. Yeah pretty much okay. But they were always he was his. His grandmother was a palestinian jew. So you know longtime palestinian. His grandmother was a jew that lived in the palestinian area right. Okay that's right. I mean that's that's all so i don't have any good solutions for it and what i would say. Is that at some point or another. You have to give up the notion that your ancestral lands have been taken that it just doesn't do any good like i am a whole variety of your average mutt white guy right in many ways I could be upset that the normans invaded and took land. From the angle.