20 Episode results for "Israel Palestine"

41: Social Justice and Israel/Palestine with Mira Sucharov and Aaron Hahn Tapper

Jewish History Matters

57:48 min | 1 year ago

41: Social Justice and Israel/Palestine with Mira Sucharov and Aaron Hahn Tapper

"I'm Jason Let's dig and welcome to Jewish history matters today mirror. Sukhurov an Erin on tapper. Join me to talk about social justice and Israel-palestine Mirror and Erin recently published a book of the same title Social Justice and Israel-palestine Elstein Foundational and contemporary debates. Aaron a Hahn Tapper is the May and Benjamin Swig professor in Jewish Studies At the University of San Francisco and he's the founding director of the SWIG program in Jewish Studies and social justice there he has co edited two volumes Muslims and Jews in America commonalities contentions and complexities which he published with Razor Oslon in in two thousand eleven and social justice and Israel Palestine which. We'll talk about today. He also is the author of the Excellent Textbook. Judaism's twenty-first-century introduction to Jews and Jewish identities which appeared in two thousand sixteen and also joined by Mira Sukhurov who is an associate professor of political science at Carleton University. Her first book was the International Self. Psychoanalysis and the search for Israeli a Palestinian peace which she published two thousand five and she recently also wrote public influence a guide to op ED. Writing and social media engagement and published in two thousand nineteen by the University of Toronto. Press the book. The mirror and Aaron Co Edited Social Justice and israel-palestine Foundational and contemporary debates is a fantastic volume that brings together over twenty scholars to talk about well. Foundational Contemporary Contemporary Debates. Like what it means to have. Multiple narratives the definition of settler colonialism the meaning of international law the question of refugees and hot topics. Once a Lotta people find to be a bit too hot like apartheid. MBBS it's an when important volume by itself and it's also a great jumping off point for our conversation today about how we can bring together social justice issues with scholarly and intellectual perspectives on Israel and Palestine. I think this episode goes really well with the previous one. When I spoke with Rachel Harris us about teaching the Arab Israeli conflict in that episode Richland? I talked about some of the challenges of teaching about Israel and Palestine and and today Mira Aaron I are going to continue that conversation about the role of scholars and scholarship in approaching. This whole subject can can we really and truly be totally objective. How can we engage with the subject? That is an important social justice issue and also when we know that our students students and members of the public have opinions of their own and usually pretty strong ones MIRA and Erin have really important perspectives on these issues. And I hope that you'll enjoy our conversation as we dive into the connection between scarlet work and the social justice issues of Israel and Palestine. A major major way in which history matters because through history we can better understand pressing issues of the day and as I think it'll come through clearly in our a conversation that as historians and experts we have something to contribute to these conversations to thanks for listening. I'm your hi Erin. Welcome to the PODCAST. Thank you Jason Thank you. I'm really glad that you guys are here to talk about this book which I was really excited to see and to read through I wanna I wanNA start off by asking. What do you mean by Social Justice and Israel-palestine when you look at the title itself? What is the connection there? And why do you think that it's important to integrate. These two realms in the discussion of social justice on the one hand and the broad set of issues around Israel and Palestine part of our idea was that Israel Palestine conflict is taught as is an informational explanatory lands right through prescriptive questions in what happened in terms of what we mean. By a lens of social justice we we mean an inter our disciplinary perspective places concepts like rights justice and oppression at the forefront and that aims to Dick sexualize Israel-palestine Israel-palestine especially for those who think of this as some sort of Auger. That's been going on forever and we'll go on forever but it it's a conflict that will end. I just like the troubles in Northern Ireland and the horrific stuff in Rwanda in apartheid in South Africa and other conflicts in the world the people in Israel Palestinian or not onto logically different In terms of their humanness than other people conflict. That will end also our goal in terms of approaching this was social justice. Justice is this notion of introducing power to the conversation if we had only included voices of people with particular social identities and now other voices. I don't think that necessarily would have been just. But our attempt is to bring in a variety of voices and introduced concepts jobs related to power dynamics which is goes down the rabbit hole of privileged status access oppression etcetera so it also means bringing in the grassroots spotlighting hot-listing minority identities as rusty Israelis essay. Anat there's an essay on Bedouin. BS courses a grassroots in many ways a grassroots treats movement and really. Were trying to broaden the discussion from what is typically explanatory questions to more prescriptive questions saying what should happen in order for. Israeli people have Palestinian people in the region to experience a sense of justice and the social part is just that we wanted to flag that. It isn't simply a book about illegal intricacies. I have a little bit of a vested interest in the term because during the twenty eleven ten protests in Israel that started on Rothschild Boulevard in Tel Levine. Is released were protesting high cost of living biceps cottage cheese of the price of housing. And they were talking in terms of social justice. Senate Clinical Lt and it became very clear early on that to maintain a broad based movement. It would be bracketing. The question of Palestinians and social justice in purely early economic terms. And we know that here when social justice movements more broadly progressive movement's about social justice thinking not only economically editor of racial justice ethnic justice religious justice justice for every individual and collective. And so we're really trying lick the conversation back towards saying how. How can Israel and the Palestinians live their lives and we as editors have a singular answer to that but we brought together scholars and activists that have very specific the the actors for that very important question and they're engaging with one another on that question? We just had the episode Rachel Harris where we talked about her book about teaching about Israel and Palestine. And there it's very clearly a book about pedagogy a book that is directed at professors teachers. Thinking about how they can teach about the subject and here you're dealing much much more conceptually much more about getting into the issues themselves as opposed to how we teach them when you think about a book like this. Who Do you see as the person who you want to pick it up what you want them to get out of it? I think we intended this book per use in classrooms where the Israel Palestinian dynamic is being taught whether it's Israeli Israeli Palestinian conflict glasser history class or the social dynamics of how Israelis and Palestinians relate with one another so it's really meant for students and the professors who teach awesome. We also seems to make it as readable as possible as accessible as possible to a wide audience. Who aren't necessarily subject specialists and to that end really took care to write very concise intro pieces to each of the eight conceptual chapters showing the reader? What's at stake? AAC each of these major debates. I have an essay that appears Rachel's Book as well in the essay that I wrote in her book is really a precursor to this project which I engaged with Aaron and really. It's a short essay about my own personal struggle of how I had been seeking to keep politics out of the classroom and had been even feeling a little bit frightened of students. What if they brought the a word? I would say appears the night before a particularly contentious topic topic where I was worried. That apartheid come. What do I do in my the the foil for the students do? I need to debate the students that they see the other side. Whatever the other side is depending on what perspective is student is raising and I realized it wasn't really very healthier constructive approach so I think what we really wanted to? The book was to enable a wave for politics it should be able to seep into the classroom in a way that doesn't put the professor on the hot seat but enables the professor to shepherd students through the debates enabling students succeed as many perspectives as they can in contrast to mirror. I was coming up this project from perhaps not in context given that was a precursor newark yet that stage but in any event for about ten years I was part of a not for profit educational organization where we worked with muscles views Israelis Palestinians and everything we did was co taught. CO-DEVELOPED CO design. So I ran the organization with the Muslim Palestinian woman are high school programs with Jews. Muslims awesome were run developed design fifty fifty by twos Muslims etcetera. And so I was coming at this project from a number of years back back so to speak from the vantage point that regardless of attempts by some people to engage in objectivity or neutrality perhaps closer to objectivity than they might otherwise present. Things that it's impossible. I think to teach each about things in the humanities frankly without offering perspectives. Even if you said all right. Here's our issue. And here's three vantage vantage points on the issue. Great probably ten others twenty thirty others so I was already at that place because that was is how I been socialized in. That's my experiences regardless. Yeah I mean I think that what you both have brought up really is a critical issue. You look at this book wishes to say as I read it and as I was thinking about it. It seems to me that the central issue that you're engaging with this fundamental idea and and the way I think about this is that even though this is a book with many authors many contributors are pushing this fundamental central thesis that the politics the issues should be a part of how we engage with Israel and Palestine scholars in a way that some people say I want to avoid the politics I want to avoid the touchy issues and try to achieve some kind of noble dream of objectivity of neutrality etc.. I think part of what. This book is arguing in this ties into to mirror. What you were saying in your essay and Rachel Harris Book as well you have to do with the idea about what is the role of the scholar and how we interact with these issues? Yeah to that. I would add one more specific thing especially in the case the way I've been teaching the courses in my field. Political Science and international relations and in many areas of social science. Generally professors tend to focus on. Why questions or we could call explanatory questions? So why did Israel extended extended olive branch to the PLO nineteen ninety-three. Why did Camp David Two thousand fail and instead of keeping prescriptive questions the questions what should be what shall be? Why should it be this way? Instead of keeping those questions that Bay we wanted to invite space for students to see how scholars activists make those prescriptive arguments particularly as the book has become available for use in my own courses finding consigning op. Ed Science for students to write much more frequently and I'm encouraging students to take the various topics that we covered in the course I which is really pretty united eight until present day and make a prescriptive argument should be. DSP Out Lodge should be various political parties depending on what case they're looking at encountered the US embrace a different view of Palestine within their platforms. I should trump have proved the the embassy to Jerusalem or not and make an argument that necessitates taking into account the arguments of another point of view and really taking those arguments seriously in making a good case whereas in some years I might have read a student paper like that. Oh this is too ideological. This is too opinionated. I no longer separate informed. Well argued opinion. That is derived from a scholarly understanding of the situation. I no longer divorce that argumentation from a more detached explanatory Brian Tori type of argument. So as you've been working on this book mirror and Aaron to what extent has it's been an avenue for you to to think through and to articulate your idea. Yeah about the relationship between what we scholars are doing and talking about amongst ourselves and in terms of the issues and our role in the public sphere well well in December at the recent Association of Jewish Studies Conference in San Diego. Aaron and I put together a panel on the question of teaching Palestine in the context of Jewish Studies so a book like this has enabled us to try to get those questions more into the forefront to see how this subset of Israel Studies israel-palestine studies or even the concept of Palestine Contemporary Palestine especially fits into our field immigrants Jewish studies with large. I was part of a panel of three or four years back. We didn't have a book when people ask questions all right. What do you recommend but it was also called? Teaching Palestinian context Jewish Studies. And the reason I put it together that panel with some colleagues was because the use of the word Palestine was released in our experience. It didn't exist in the Jewish studies. Conferences literally didn't appear anywhere in the conference book of the schedule and everything and I didn't hear anyone used the word over the course of three or four days. I think that's shifting slightly and and granted I'm limited to my experience but I do think that that's reflective of the way in which even something as basic as not saying isn't but saying Israel Palestine Israel and Palestine Israel Palestinian territories however. However you want to frame it? It's not the norm still in the Association of Jewish studies to use those terms publicly. If you will I'd I'd say that if one accepts. That premise which I do is incredibly problematic to put it mildly what to leave the Palestinian out even and if the Palestinians and Palestinian narratives and Palestinian perspectives are part of panels by not even using the name Palestine in a panel channel. I mean there's something very structurally vacant about that. I haven't looked through this year's schedule with a fine tooth. Comb but my sense dances that the word Israel will appear many more times than the word Palestine. And I think that's reflective of deeper ideologies. He's more than simply while outcome. We don't see the word abortion or some other word that has a lot of weight and Gravitas with I. I think that's reflective of ideology in part of the intention of our book was to put out there while you know what ideology cps its way into everything seeped. It's way into these essays and whether the person self identifies as a scholar or activist or for someone who upholds human rights Someone who's in international law scholar wherever they're coming from their identities work their way into the text taxed such that. I don't think there can be any separation whatsoever between at least some of their ideology what they ranked. I think it's a spectrum. In terms of how people teach in how much of their personal opinions they add to the conversation in disagreement with the recent review of our book which I thought was very eh put together critique but I disagree with the fundamental thesis of the reviewer. which was she was arguing? That you can teach objectively. I think it's pretty well L. accepted in many schools of thinking within the academy ideas. Maybe a modern idea but certainly not a postmodern idea. We're in a post modern era now beyond that I think a lot of the shifts in terms of how people are teaching in general and especially by the Israel. Palestine is very much tied into some of the trends friends in what we would generally call modernism especially ideas about multiple narratives. You know if we look at the book this is the Very First Section is focusing on the idea of multiple audible narratives and this also ties in Erin to your other projects. Where you've written you know this really excellent textbook on the history and the culture of the Jews called Judaism's plural girl so there? I see this connection as well in terms of your focus on the idea of multiple narratives multiple perspectives there. You're just looking at the Jews but when we're talking about Israel on Palestine is perhaps even more important as well yeah. I'd agree with that in that chapter. We ought that what we might get in inviting array of scholars to weigh in on the topic of narratives in their respective and sees was some scholars arguing for the utility of narratives approach in the Israel. Palestine classroom assume and other scholars arguing that a multiple marriages approaches fundamentally lap king morally or ethically. We didn't end up with which was interesting. We weren't terribly early. Prescriptive with the Elsie on what we were looking for what we wanted to let them engage be concept as they saw fit but one thing we did find that. Was this quite intriguing to me in that chapter was one of the SAS. George Shaw talking about how vary narrative television history open or close certain policy outcomes with regard to whether we think of Israel Palestine relationship is needing to one ended seperation leading to a Tube station or one potential coexistence leading to more confederative or or co-existence Wednesday scenario. So it's looking at. How narratives can be used either consciously or even consciously in the process? One of the great things about the book is that sometimes you see there are people with different perspectives on an issue. And sometimes you really see the consensus that does emerge on these different issues. And that's something that students often don't get a chance to see because very few places in real life life and even on social media where people with opposing perspectives are engaging each other thoughtfully. I spent a lot of time of social media and I do see a lot of facebook. facebook especially debates in twitter debates and usually people are trying to score points for lack of a better term. And what we really tried to do with the book and I think he really succeeded was getting scholars activists with sometimes diametrically opposed perspectives other times just partially opposing perspectives. To really take seriously the arguments of the other to the extent that they actually cited each other in their respective essays and it was a bit of a coordination challenge because it will point you. Stop the editing process. In let in person have the last word but I think it was satisfied that they got their argument was able to engage with the others and students in my classes had noted that they're quite impressed by the fact that the S.. We're able to do that in print like a real conversation. You don't always get kind of real conversation. Among scholars podcast is is is one thing but when you're talking about publications one thing comes out and then other publication comes out. They're not actually in competition with each other. One is responding to the other and I think that one one of the challenges of people understanding the scholarly debates whether we're talking about students or the public largest that they don't often get to see that conversation. Play out I want to dive into the meat of the overall. The book is organized into these. Two overarching frameworks of foundational issues at contemporary debates. There's four sections in each of those. I'm interested in peeling back the issues and thinking about why they matter. The first of these is The section that deals with the idea and the framework of settler colonialism The whole bunch of those initial sections are really definitional figuring out what is self determination. And how do we understand it. What we understand by international law for instance since this question about whether or not Zionism colonial enterprise as been around for quite a while generate a lot of debate? It's a fundamental issue as you put it a foundational one because it has to do with how people understand the nature of Israel the nature of Zionism and the situation there. I was struck by the arguments in these chapters. One of the authors Sam Flesh Hacker was suggesting the idea of settler. Colonialism doesn't really work for understanding the history of Israel Palestine and then the other authors Asaad Ghanem and Terry Khattab are arguing also that perhaps settler colonialism doesn't exactly working at a different kind of framework to what extent. Do you think that these kinds of debates are imported this kind of definitional issue our scholars splitting hairs when they say that it's a Conflict between nationalisms as opposed to settlers colonials or of one says oh it's settler colonialism and not colonialism or something like that there are all different kinds of terms all different kinds of frameworks that we can use that are often slightly different from one another but only slightly what these differences mean in terms terms of how we're trying to understand the history of Israel and Palestine and the social justice issues on the one hand the theoretical conversation about tangible things. That taking place is irrelevant but on the other hand so much of what I think the good stuff that comes out of the academy is Reflections uh-huh and analysis on reality and at least that's what draws me to the academic enterprise more specifically to your question on the one hand yeah whether it's a Southern Colonialists Paradigm or classroom nationalisms doesn't matter in in the lives of people living in Israel Palestine does does is. It lives in the person who don't have access to healthcare water. Whatever basic needs simply because of the social shaw in structural apparatus that exists over there on the other? It's incredibly important. Because the way in which Israel Palestine Stein exists especially in the United States of America is through discourse more than anything else. Yes what happens in Israel. Palestine is different than what happens. Latest israel-palestinian the United States but United States policy wise plays a major role in what goes on in the Middle East. So I think it does matter. I think the analysis of how this country was birthed in in what happened in in creating space for this the country to be birth. What was people who were dispossessed in exile and killed and murdered in all the ugliness that frankly undergirds the creation of every country at least every country? I've ever studied it matters. Because then you're getting back to the foundations of something in Grad School. I did a a lot of work on non violence specifically studying Ghandi one of the many powerful things that Gandhi wrote. was that if you start something. A project with violence then violence will always be embedded in the very fabric of the project. He was talking about in regard to a new country or decolonized decolonized India but even a lot of thought to that over the years and I think he was absolutely right and he served only person ever talked about that. But in American history for instance that if American history and I missed lowering tension is built on to original sins. If you will genocide of native the American populations and being slaved momentum Africans that when you look and analyze the State of Native Americans in Twenty First Century End African Americans specifically those who are descendants of enslaved Africans. There's a connect the dots that is intense in clear earlier. It's not difficult to connect the dots if you just take a few moments to look at a to B to CD though not historian by any a stretch. We're not going back. Hundreds of years with Israel and Palestine. We're going back decades so perhaps even the more so in terms of. How did we get to where we are in the the twenty first century related to Israel Palestine? Well let's connect the dots backwards in. It obviously goes back prior to forty eight but it doesn't go back nearly as far as the United States of America and if we can follow this threat backwards we can figure out what's going on now and some of the structures that are in place now they were burst and if one doesn't acknowledge where that strand started. I don't think that they're going to figure out where they are now. Students in China DOT. They're very much thinking about indigenous Tatler relations right now in terms of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its attendant. Attendance demands and the idea of reconciliation between non indigenous peoples indigenous. Peoples is top of mind so thinking about settlers colonialism as the categories very a helpful for making comparisons in similar to the issues that Aaron raised any American. The second thing is whether not settling colonialism category EH versus competing ABS- categories are splitting hairs or overly academic is in some ways beside the point. Because these are the terms that students as you're hearing in the streets in the student union building just usually go to metaphor for the way that israel-palestine optimism plays out outside the So part of what we're we're trying to do is enable students to bring back the sloganeering and slogans on protest signs and import back into the classroom using scholarly lands to really investigate. What's going on so sampler Who You mentioned who ultimately decides that competing nationalisms is a better framework in south colonialism Still take setter colonialism seriously before. He concludes concludes so what the students will see. It's not a shouting match between these two perspectives between these respective authors. It's thoughtful engagement and that's really I think what we're trying to model. Yeah I just want to emphasize I do. You think that those distinctions matter and I do think that these debates matter. I think the question that I was trying to ask here was about the intersection. Between the scarlet. Discussion and the the scholarly efforts to try to pin down the right terminology pin down. The right frameworks one versus the other. I think some people outside of the academy they look at these debates and the either right off some of these terms like there are a lot of people especially within the Jewish community. who very apprehensive about anybody? Who's claiming that Israel? Israel or Zionism is colonial to any extent. That's one thing and I think that that is really problematic. Because fundamentally shuts down a conversation that we the scholars have been having now for a long time. About how do you understand. How do you conceptualize and compare and contrast the efforts of Jews to settle in Palestine and and other colonial enterprises around the world? Whether we're talking about Canada where you're talking about the US whether we're talking about Australia. Whether we're talking about European powers involving in Africa in China Japan Etcetera and I think that this is part of the reason why it matters but I think that part of the question here is. What do we gain from exposing the people to these debates and from trying to bring these scholarly discussions out into a broader sphere about terminology in about frameworks? My hope is that the a debate will become more nuanced by those who read these respective essays and so the question is not as nearly as clear cut. I think in the Israel Palestine case as it is in the anglosphere the settler colonial countries that you mentioned Canada you have upscale New Zealand. Where the a settler communities did not have historical ties to the land that they settle the matter is certainly distinct in Israel so these are debates that readers will be able to engage gauge with more thoughtfully and with more nuance with more knowledge and sometimes some readers will find that if they're on the fence about whether one category Ori is better than the other or they they already believe? That category is better than the other they WANNA see. If they get convinced won't get convinced tonight others will be persuaded to us is the dynamic ability. Ability of the book is that some people will side with the offered that they already ABC read with and others might find that their ideas change part of what this highlights. It's for me. Is that that. This distinction between foundational issues and contemporary debates are not really divorced from each other in a lot of ways. It's useful for the for the table. We'll contents is useful for sort of presenting the material but in a lot of ways. These debates which are financial issues are actually still contemporary and these contemporary debates are still foundational and a lot of ways absolutely and we have some tactical thoughts about that when we put at Chapter Chapter let self-determination in the first half in the Foundational House. 'cause what we're really trying to do and we succeeded was hash out the Tuesday solution versus one state solution debate in different words. And I think that's what Red Sauce Leagues Essay. DASGUPTA says Hodge and Ron Greenstein is looking looking at the concept of what it means to self determine in the concept of what it needs to be yet. Jewish state in today's international global formation dated to natural systems system looking at the norms and looking at the ethics of knock by and Financial Ism and again passing up that debate in ways that are perhaps a little surprising to career. I think that if we turn to the contemporary debates two of them that really stood out to me as I was reading through the book where the sections that dealt with intersection. MBBS the reason why. I think that that those two issues are so important both on their own and also within the context of the book is because the highlight the crossover between in Israel and Palestine broader social justice issues of our present moment. Essentially the part of what I'm thinking about is how the discussions about Israel and Palestine. Elstein tie in with bar discussions about how we fight injustice so there we're talking about your sexuality and then also the extent to which tactics and strategies that have proven effective in other instances particularly South Africa can be applied to Israel and Palestine how they're being pushed as a strategy by certain people and I'm really obviously opposed by many people as well. I WanNa talk about both of those. An all-star with intersection -ality my thing intersection -ality is that this is really important. As we think about about the shifting alliances as they relate to Jews in the diaspora and other groups as they relate to the Israeli Palestinian conflict for instance. If you look at the chapter that Joya you you wrote you know. He argues that a more robust black Palestinian alliances still going to emerge in which reflects in a lot of ways. Major shift from The realities of breath fifty sixty years ago when American Jews they tend to understand their own. History has been kind of on the right side of history when it comes to the civil rights movement. Part of what I ubis suggesting here is that this is changing. And the situation in Israel and Palestine is sort of forcing Jews into the opposing side of the oppressors as opposed to those who are interested Civil Rights and liberation. Part of why is your sexuality is important because it is a tool that helps us to think through sort of what is happening on the ground both in terms of Israel in Palestine itself and also in terms of the debates about the discourse as you said which is the way that it manifests itself in the US and Canada. I want to put it out to you guys. Why do you think the intersection analogy is useful category for thinking about contemporary debates about the Israeli Palestinian conflict? How discussed and debated in particular as you mentioned? Engine Mirror right. This is the language of the college campus that this is the language the students are using to talk about different kinds of injustices which are taking place today. What is your approach to thinking about intersection with all of these things in mind so in terms of when we were crafting the book and figuring out? What are the topics who want to deal with? I think you've hit the nail on the head that one of the reasons. We had a chapter on intersection or the S or international law were apartheid was because those are common tropes in common words thrown around when people are debating and discussing israel-palestine in both on academic campuses and beyond so we were doing what we could to. Okay this is a common word that pops up also also a lot of these work pop in in media about these types of topics as co editors. I think in American speak for herself. We were trying to Somehow tap into the pulse of the discussions on israel-palestine today and then bring people in to offer perspectives on these given even issues as a non co-editor per se. I would say wearing a different APP. I would say well intersection. Audi is that word is it's pretty common on university campuses now especially with people who identify with the left than the right. It's dominant entry point into all. All sorts of social justice issues in Israel. Costs is one of them but it has to deal with connecting. What is going on over there with what is going on over here? To some degree we it's UNHEALTH- growth of globalization in all sorts of phenomena taking place around the world for decades. Now I'll add one other thing. Is that in wearing the two hats. 'cause Mary and I both have pretty serious opinions. On all sorts of things related to these topics. It was more difficult for me. The Mirror Mirror master this much better than I. Sometimes when I was editing given Essay Mirror would be like. Hey remember. We're editing but not not without perspective can be difficult when it's issues that you're so passionate in connected to to enter any conversation or any topic or your answer a question like you're asking wearing a an editor hat. Were wearing an author hat so to speak in Chin. That's struggle that Aaron outlining part of our role is editors also is to codes Challenges Authors our role as editor is to imagine ourselves in the place of a critic who vehemently disagrees with an author's position. So would it. Offer say in response to arguments Y Z it often the authors would be getting anyway for their counterparts in their clusters of two or three in chapter. But when they weren't we would be standing. So that's what's important part in terms of intersection alley. We actually call that section intersectional alliances because an important essay within that chapter is about. US foreign policy life and how it has shifted over time with regard to israel-palestine House probably shifted less than the grassroots might like at the Democratic Party for example so there is up interesting attention being trained to nat essay by us about how the views of some Kenya I need new democratic representatives on the scene are trying it push. US foreign policy perhaps leftwards Crew term are part of that Bush does derive from issues of race and gender and other identities in the American context. Obviously I think Erin as you're pointing out. There is a distinction between how you approach these topics as an editor and how you approach it yourself as a scholar and also as somebody who's involved in all sorts sorts of issues. I can also appreciate this because also as a podcast host. I also have a similar situation where you are dealing with issues as yourself and also in terms of trying to shepherd a conversation in which I think is a big part of what you guys are doing with. The book is trying to shepherd a conversation. But if we take off the editor hat for a moment as you look at some of these terms things like intersection things like Expulsion things even like narratives. There are some people who reject these ideas as having any value to begin with particularly from people who are more on the right wing side of things more on the left. As you mentioned intersection. Alan you particular is a very central idea of left wing circles very specifically part part of what I'm asking here is as you look at the ideas that are being engaged with here on the book and there are of course people writing in the book for instance writing about Ds who are vehemently opposed to it. Where do you see this book fitting in in terms of expanding the discourse about Israel and Palestine when so many people for instance within the Jewish community kind of scoff? Put these ideas to begin with some of anyway. Let's take the easy when I some people in the Jewish community scoff at that. Some of those people also really derive great purpose from writing public pronouncements in opposition to yes while they may be very frustrated by date. They don't want to be silent. Twenty shoes so this book again braves together scholars activists who have some say about these very saline issues as richer sexuality me me we could say that some people might roll their eyes at but again it's a perspective that is used in many activists circles than the question. is what kinds of insights sites. Can we take from it and people may agree or disagree but I guess what we're trying to do in. The book is not necessarily debates the value of terms on their own but to the debate the policy directions and political implications that derived from the embracing of certain terms so that doesn't become simply a semantic exercise but there's really something steak for the reader today is December eleventh. Perhaps during this very reporting At some point in the near future or the near past the present United States is set to some sort of executive order that which as it from an academic standpoint on my own is going to limit academic freedom. How I connect that to your question? It is that will Jews this book. Or what have you I. I have no idea I certainly have a good sense of where the Jewish community is at in the San Francisco Bay area on all sorts of issues in even of that question was probably in my mind in your mind somewhere floating around. I mean. We're in writing this book to be used in educational settings. We were writing this book to be used on college campuses. Perhaps more advanced high school campuses our goal goal was to acknowledge and respect that. There's valid perspective on the issues that we confronted in this book and to give space is to these various perspectives. Even if we disagree with them whether there are couple tape there's much larger patterns of things taking place in the world that are even beyond us meaning whether or not this book will be read by people new Jewish community. Well there's things taking place related to Israel and Palestine in many ways that are feeding into today's December eleventh executive order meaning the the discourse around israel-palestine that takes place in the United States takes place not just on university campuses but also in the halls of the White House. Even if suppose this became the most popular book on Israel Palestine in the academy things taking place as we speak literally that might very well shot books and projects like this down which speaks the two larger wars. If you will taking place related to Israel-palestine Anti-semitism Jews white supremacists in all sorts of other things. What we didn't want is a book where someone put through the table? Context Apartheid Diaz I know the sets. We weren't trying to do a wink wink book to a certain set of people. This is a book. That I'm packs. Investigates and analyzes these controversial terms in good faith across perspectives backed up and that was a real important pedagogical goal for us. How does this push the debates and discussions forward? I'm thinking here into Roms first of all in terms of the the public sphere at large and also the college campus. Especially because in the sense that I'm getting from you guys. Is that the primary audience for this book is going to be students in as much as these chapters are easily assignable texts that professors can utilize in the classroom. When you're thinking about this whole kind of a project in what way do you think that it can make a difference? It's so for instance I look at the BCS chapters right and there. I think one of the goals that you're trying to do is thinking about how you can lay out the landscape of the discussion about the US. That's taking place in two thousand nineteen entering the twenty twenty and so when you have these different chapters that are presenting different perspectives on this issue. which is an ongoing discussion and ongoing debate? How how do you think that this kind of a project can have an impact? I think it enables students and other interested readers to get a taste taste of how in the case of the chapter. How arguing what they argue and how activists argument what they are? Third Third Essay is about the attempts to legislate against BS in various American state legislatures. And so that gives a sense of the political the dynamics of the current tap moment where students get a taste for how those given perspectives engage with one another and again offers were required to engage directly with one another argument. So it's very useful and I think that a really important value added part of the book is our editors Intros so in a very short concise ice intro to the BDO shocker just like we do with every other section we lay out what's at stake in the BDO's debate for readers. So they understand. Really concisely what. Each side argues at wide even matters to add to that out say it acknowledges that every issue discussed particularly the issues. We focused on the book. They're valid issues that they have a validity. The notion of all too many I would say in Jewish communities that is off the table any organization that is linked to it. They can't enter our building literally in whether it's Hiller Jewish federations or what have you just the I get it in. I understand where a lot of these emotions and knee-jerk reactions come from Jewish communities today and I disagree with a BSN. Yes the conversation whether I personally disagree with it or not as an academic as an educator as a teacher. It's a conversation as an educator. I have a responsibility that if I'm teaching of course these really Palestinian conflict if one of the most important day to day issues that comes up for a college student is whether or not supports or not the movement while we need to have a conversation we need to approach this analytically 'cause decks with the academy. He is about. It's about teaching. It's about training our students in critical thinking. I think by having a book where such essays are gathered third in a single place is helpful to those teachers who are teaching about these types of issues in. Okay what maybe this. Hopefully fleet will be one of their resources for teaching about inner sexual alliances or BS. Or what about the term apartheid. Or what have you that is. It's really critical element which is like how we take these ideas which are seen as taboo by some people some of them by many people and how we engage with them because if a term is so taboo that you fear that by mentioning it in your class it all under any circumstance that will cause problems of one hundred other. That's a political victory for one side. I think that you're sticking out. This important claim here that as academics that we should not be entirely divorcing ourselves from these social justice issues is because we're academics and because we should be so to speak objective as academics we have opinions we have perspectives and that we should embrace the fact that we have opinions and perspectives as has opposed to trying to be robots. I think this gets back to the point. We were talking earlier about limiting oneself as a scholar or as a instructor instructor and university classrooms to explanatory questions. Why did this happen? How did it happen? Explanatory descriptive questions may be predictive questions and embracing before for spoke of the Matab and that is what should happen. So yes most of these accidents writing an opinion mode but their opinions. That derive in their scholarly understanding the way things and in terms of social justice. There is this question of of course. The term social justice means a lot of different things to different people and we The different ways that social justice can be understood in in our editors intro. But what we're really talking about is how to make people's lives better and that's where the disagreement it is and that's what we're really trying to do in this. It's really lay out. Those disagreements hopefully with an aim of improving the plight of Israelis and Palestinians. I think as you're talking talking about that. It raises these fundamental issues. That I think about a lot in terms of this project of the podcast which is about why history is important. Why it's important to study the past to learn from it? I think that one of the challenges that oftentimes people think about history and here. I'm thinking more about the kind of the popular perspective on history as opposed to what we do as academics. But they think it's just just knowing about what happened in the past but it's also learned from it as you said like this extra component that we don't usually talk about as academics. We don't talk about what should happen. But maybe we should because we do want to be able to help students to form opinions that are based on historical understanding. I'm not gonNa tell them what to believe but I want them them to be able to create an opinion that is informed on the basis of deep historical knowledge and understanding. And if we away from anything that is related to this question of what should happen then we enter into this world where we are implicitly saying that what we are doing doesn't matter. Yeah we're only doing half the coin and they're going to be engaging in prescriptive arguments. Social Media's has so dominated in the last several years the way we talk in the public sphere they are going to be talking prescriptively. So can we give them the tools to do that in informed evidence based and Compassionate Banner We've talked about how Maronite approaching teaching about Israel Palestinian in terms of one's identity in one's personal politics seeping into the process regardless and in the same exact way a we were very mindful of the social identities of the authors of these aspects. There are some very valid critiques. Were later to the politics politics of identity in terms of tokenism. And what have you but to teach about any topic all too many books. For most of academic history are just written By men and mostly written by white men and mostly written by Christine Whitman Cetera. If we had done a project on Israel Palestine and all of the authors were male. That probably wouldn't have flown in this day and age thankfully even though there are still prominent books about all sorts of topics that are coming out still like that unfortunately but part of our intention was to have people because their social identities are tied up in with their opinions. It's obviously not a cause and effect of Jewish. You believe this your Palestinian believe this. It's sad it's nothing so simple but we are very mindful of the social identities of the authors authors such that it was our best effort to have a broad array of identities of the authors in terms of gender in terms of I national and religious and ethnic identity and I think that is a distinction between our book and other projects out there. That think that that's important. Not Not simply again checking off the box. Did you get a Palestinian writer. We could find people who challenge the stereotypes of giving identities. That was one of our intentions. And I think that's also something that speaks to the project itself than what we tried to do with the book and one thing readers will notice is that there's a lot more variation creation across Jewish contributors on matters of political importance than there is on average across the Palestinian Arab contributors and and professors may want to engage very question with their students on sort of a metal hugo the bucks what does that say about conversation. Contemporary Jewish community today versus the conversation Cassation Contemporary Alestinian community today about potential outcomes range of political positions. And I think a lot of it has to do with relative power one example one of the essays arguing for Vdi is written by an Israeli Jew and an essay arguing very much against speedy S.'s. Written invite American Jew. So they're little surprises like that. I think as we get towards the end of our conversation one of the things that I'm interested in here is to think about stepping back and looking at this book as a whole and the issues that it raises. It's not just about what is his contribution but how the discussions that are taking in place here. In what ways do you think that we can take away an overarching perspective on Israel and Palestine and issues a social justice by looking at this book doc and the issues that it raises for instance when you talk about the two sections the foundational issues and contemporary debates. In what ways do you think that rethinking or reassessing. The foundational issues can help us to contribute to our understanding of contemporary issues and also vice versa. How what's going on right now? Provides provides the necessary corrective for instance or an elimination these foundational issues about Israel and Palestine. That you're engaging with in the book and the Dolphins are writing about what. What do we gain from this project as a whole and how the different parts interact with each other? I think the what the ebook really help students do is figure out what's at stake the various debates so when an anti DDS activist says that supporting the three pillars means the end of the Jewish state. What what does that really mean? And how do we understand Jewish day. Had We understand self-determination had we understand international law. And so we're talking between contemporary debates and foundational debates in order to understand ultimately what's at stake in various political demands so that we can start Kapila back the layers and rather talk past one another. We can try to encourage a public conversation where we are leveling the conceptual plainfield simply to have not real productive debates. What matters cause we're talking about a conflict that's current and real and affecting people's lives? I mean which goes back to something you were saying before about history and I have a bias in my scholarship going back. Twenty years I remember thinking had a masters and I was trying to figure grab nextstep semi professional path in a friend of mine convinced me that scholarship matters if you're doing contemporary stop. Now I'm not getting into the validity of that but I do think for me. I can only do scholarship. That's related to what's going on right now that's just how design the teller oriented towards these things and the Israeli Palestinian conflict is not some yes it is taking place on the other side of the world and yes. The most people don't spend years living living over there. Endorse studying the conflict as I have in as mere has by there real people who are in this conflict end. This conflict is one of the most polarizing conflicts on American campuses. And why that is is a whole other probably podcast but it matters not just in Israel zero Palestine for the people who are living. This conflict matters for people who exist on college campuses because it's tied into their identities. It's tied into their their feelings of their safety on their campus. It's tied into so many pieces and part of the intersection out of this whole entity of Israel and Palestine. It is really like a spiderweb in it's connected to so many different things going on so given that and given that the Israeli president concert what is being taught on campuses are book is an attempt to add. Voices two classrooms that perhaps word present prior not particularly that because we want students necessarily think. ABC Or D.. But because we want them to think about ABC indeed and how does that relate to their understanding of Israel Palestine in there now does that relate to their understanding of the United States or Canada or wherever else. Because that's the world we live even today where these things are connected to another even if they're literally or metaphorically on the other side of the plan I feel like the through line throughout this whole conversation has been about helping to engender thoughtful discussion on the university campus by creating a text that students can read. The professors can use when when teaching when thinking about these issues because social justice in Israel Palestine are thing that is already taking place on the college campus. I think we can have kind of sanity. Check here and say say to what extent do discussions on college campuses matter. I know from personal experience in going back for for years and years and years people are always talking talking about what people are saying on college. Campuses like this is the end of the world or they're always talking about what people are talking about college campuses like this is the most important thing in the entire universe and it's easy I think for us as does professors who have sequestered ourselves to the college campus for years and decades to say okay. Yes what is happening. Here is the most important. This is our lives right but in the grand scheme of things competitions which are taking place all over the place and not just at the university campus level. So we're talking about all of this and the discussion about Israel and Palestine nine. Why do you think that the debates that take place at the university level here talking just about the professors and discussions but the overarching discussions and debates? You know when the Student Union is pushing forward on proposing to have obedience resolution or anything else. Why do we think that the university campuses debates about Israel and Palestine and social justice matter particularly as opposed to other places where this debate taking place debates on university? Campuses are really only one element of where these debates h show up in. Our book is equally applicable to trade union debate or Canada's recent about face in voting in the UN or mark trump's decision to move the US embassy to Jerusalem so there are debates taking place in a quarter of power there debates taking place triples. Workplaces added their debates taking place plays on campuses and there are debates taking place on the streets of Israel in the streets of Palestine so this book is a way of capturing the debates that are taking place in real about real people's lives back say that United States in Canada have disproportionate influence on the rest of the planet especially in terms of monetary unitary influenced the United States has a ridiculously disproportionate influence. So I think for pound if one wants to changed the world for the better vis-a-vis education I think one can have more influence on the world if they're working on a campus in a country that has disproportionate power great. Thank you guys so much for this really interesting conversation. Thank you Jason. Thank you for -tunities. Thanks for listening to this episode. If you like it. I hope you'll subscribe to the podcast which you can find on apple podcasts. Google play spotify. I or wherever else you listen until next time I'm Jason. Let's dig and thanks for listening to Jewish history matters.

Israel Palestine Israel Palestine Israel Palestine Israel and Pa United States Mira Aaron professor Rachel Harris Erin editor Palestine Contemporary Palesti Israel Palestine Stein Excellent Textbook South Africa Jason Let
The dark logic of Trumps Israel-Palestine peace plan

Worldly

45:23 min | 1 year ago

The dark logic of Trumps Israel-Palestine peace plan

"Hi I'm Megan. Canadian and I produced Nice try from curbed a podcast about utopia a place. That is perfect and does not exist. Hosted did by Avery truffle man. The season starts in Jamestown with the first permanent English settlement in North America and ends in the fictional her land a world with no men in site. Nice try has been recommended as a must-listen by the New York Times The New Yorker esquire vulture time and more apple podcast even named it one of the top podcast of twenty nine thousand nine but don't just take their word for it. Check it out for yourself. The entire season is available. Now find out more and binge. NJIT ON APPLE PODCASTS. spotify or your favorite podcast APP and it's finally here. The trump administration after teasing it for months maybe even years depending on how you time it has released its vision for Israel Palestine peace and it turns out. It's not so much a peace plan as it is a give everything everything Israel wants plan and then hope that leads to something that might be better. We'll get into whether there's actually any real aspirations for peacemaking in this plan and what it actually proposes today worldly part of the Vox media podcast network at beach. I'm here with Jim. Williams and Alex Ward. Hey team guest today That is call it L. Gandhi. He is a senior fellow at the Middle East Institute. And one of America's top experts on Israel Palestine. Really things He's sleep lanching when I say that Welcome welcome thanks could be the plan. It's here it's been called Depending on what you look at from prosperity to piece the deal of the century is a term that I think trump came up with making fun of it also calls itself the Vision inside the texts. So you know. Let's let's talk a little bit about what it actually does. I've set this up to be pretty bad right so called run. Run down the sort of big picture rules of the game as laid out in the deal. Yes so the the plan lays out out what it calls a vision for a two-state solution in theory At least that's how they're they're couching it. So the Palestinian state that they're describing basically would consist of about seventy percent of the West Bank In kind and of a fragmented Areas that are linked together through a network of tunnels and bridges and various infrastructure. But not actually actually territorially contiguous in addition to some swops In inside Israel In the south as well was A little bit in the north So that's the centerpiece of their plan. which is this Palestinian state that is essentially completely surrounded by Israel? So that's on On territory On Security Israel would have full control over everything between the Mediterranean NC and the Jordan River including the airspace territorial waters electromagnetic sphere Entering exit points The Palestinian NIAN quote state would not have the ability to enter into treaties with with foreign countries And of course Israel has overriding security. Control over the entire blanket area on Jerusalem Jerusalem is exclusively. Israel's capital of Palestinians. Estonians would be allowed to have a capital near Jerusalem. They could call it Jerusalem if they so desired but it would be outside. The plan is pretty clear that it would be outside of the security barrier or the wall as Palestinians call it and The plan is also explicit on the third major issue final-status issue which is Palestinian refugees and It stays pretty clearly that no single Palestinian refugee would be allowed to return to to to their homes in Israel and instead would have the choice between going back to a Palestinian entity to be resettled where they are in neighboring Arab states or in third countries and some sort of compensation package would be put together Over the long term. All all of this is contingent on obviously Palestinian acceptance but more importantly the Palestinian Entity could not come into into being until a whole array of Conditions had been matt the disarming of Hamas A long list of fiscal reforms of legal reforms. That Palestinians have to enact certain kinds of legislation and the decision as to win Palestinians met that threshold would be decided by Israel so it's a theoretical quote unquote state and one that frankly isn't all that appealing to Palestinians in the first place and as you said I mean pretty much gives Israel everything that it wanted An and I I should clarify. It's a wishlist not just for Israel but for Israel's right-wing explicit distinction because when I'm talking about Israel here I'm talking about the current government which does not represent the views of arguably most of the Israeli public depending and how you cut the polling right about half rough. Yeah Yeah Yeah but you know pretty. Remarkably the plan has the support of of Netanyahu's opposition of the Ben against the blue and white a coalition and even the president of Israel whose largely in a ceremonial remonial role. But still has influences and is seen as somewhat of a moderate And so there is a kind of Israeli consensus in Israeli early politics about this is a great plan and we should get on board I think the only real descent on this planet. Israel is coming from the joint lists which of course is predominantly lately made up of of Palestinian citizens of Israel and they're pretty much in the margins of Israeli politics so you know I think it's reflective of just how far to the right as really politics has moved In in recent decades there is much less support for the the plan. Here here we see Democrats especially being quite vocal in opposing it as a sham as a farce They're using that sort of language. Both Bernie Sanders offers and Elizabeth Warren. For example have criticized the plan. And we've seen a number of progressive members of Congress Also come out against the plan and I think that reflects a shift that's happening in American politics but from the standpoint of the Palestinians. This plan does not offer I mean it takes takes all of the issues that they care about a capital in Jerusalem. the refugees not even a symbolic Number of refugees that would be allowed to return and most importantly sovereignty self-determination are all off the table and so the vision that the trump plan represents is something thing more akin to Bantustans Than it is to to anything that we might call estate inside. What's advantage Stan? Bantustans were in south South Africa. These autonomous supposedly autonomous areas for black South Africans and as a way of segregating them from The white South African minority but still while claiming the black a majority had autonomy or statehood or sovereignty not And so these were sort of Isolated autonomous areas that were surrounded by South th Africa in Control very very similar to the plan that was laid out by the trump administration. So this sounds like apartheid. Then well that is that's the stick critique of it right is that it will lead to a permanent apartheid situation formalized and permitted by the United States right. I think the question of whether whether or not that is what the trump people wanted or thought of it is sort of separate and it's weather. I do think that it's hard to describe the end vision of this plan as anything but that so I wanna kind of step back just for a minute to kind of talk about how the the trump administration presented this. Right what the Just to kind of give listeners offensive you know how they are trying to sell this deal They essentially said Kushner Jared Kushner so that's White House senior adviser adviser and obviously trump's son-in-law He was the basically the grand architect this plan along with a core group of negotiators well. They're really negotiations gauthier shins but Core Group of advisers with them but they're essentially he's approach was look we've had these previous agreements over and over again. We've had all these negotiations none. None of them have ever actually led to complete final-status negotiations because all of these previous plans left the nitty gritty details to the end they laid out this broad framework during work like the Oslo process and basically said at the very end then the two sides. The Israelis in the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank will come together and and you guys will work out the saddest roussel. You guys will work out. You know land swaps in the West Bank and who you know which Pertz of of the West Bank Israel retains means which part are takes keeps in which parts you know will be a contiguous theoretically Palestinian state anyway so it was basically we. Don't WanNa get into the details tells but Kushner's approach was look. That didn't work so I'm going to go ahead and just decide the details for you guys. We're going to sit down. We're going to write down the details. We're going to have a very detailed the proposal and in that sense he succeeded right it is it does say no here. Here are the lines that are going to divide you. Divide or not divide Jerusalem as the case as maybe Here or the actual pieces of land you get you know Israel gets this thirty percent chunk of the West Bank. Meanwhile in return Palestinians Estonians. You got these two areas that are undeveloped. Land in the desert on the border Sinai in the border with Egypt And so that was basically the approach right. Look we're we're GONNA try this different method we're gonNA actually put it out there and you guys can take it or leave The problem is and we're GONNA get into that. Is that in doing so so they have actually made policy stated. US policy to be things that we hadn't stated before definitively that would be something we would support as a final status. We always said No. Leave it up to you guys. And that has essentially given Netanyahu at green light. So I think my favorite discussion discussion of the deal from jared and there have been many sort of cringe worthy interviews. Alex actually did a good piece on this For Vox is the time that he claimed that he read twenty twenty five bucks on the Israel Palestine conflict. It's on my head of started calling this jared's book report on the Israeli Palestinian conflict I think that that but sort of encapsulates the degree in care of thought that went into this. Because it's billed as a peace plan right but it was done in the way that Jen was describing without any consultation with one of the two sides that was supposed to sign on right like this was done by the trump administration in consultation with the Israelis elise with absolutely zero Palestinian. Buying whatsoever right. It isn't an attempts to say. Okay here's a mutually agreeable compromise. It's an attempt to dictate terms and I think the the best piece of commentary defending this deal which I think encapsulates the real spirit of it in a way. The trump administration won't won't actually say is this piece in the Washington Post by Isreaeli News analyst Eilon Levy and key the title of the piece is Israel won. He's really Palestinian conflict. Any plan has to reflect that and the court argument comes a little bit down And I want to read a short paragraph because I think it really is sort of an honest encapsulation of what's is happening throughout history. The victors always dictated. The ultimate terms of peace is that fair. Maybe is that how the world works in reality. Yes conflicts don't end when both sides agree agree that they are tired of fighting they end one side. The loser recognizes it. Can't keep up the battle and decides to get what it can before things get worse and there I think it is. It's red eye. I find this morally repugnant. As an argument right like it's basically a claim that anytime that somebody is victimized by another side international politics they just have to give up right and there's no such thing as fairness yeah. It's it's the million dialogue for those I are nerds. Who are listening here? just apply to the Israel Palestine in conflict But for those of us who have been committed to kind of just two state solution for a while and I grew up in a Jewish Zionist left-wing household. That was like our mantra growing up. This is a slap in the face and really quickly I mean. The trump administration had been pretty explicit leading up to the release that look Israel is has the advantage in Palestine does not and therefore it kind of has to accept some of these terms. I it mirrors or if not you know lends credence to that. That's the argument argument at least the thinking within the White House. I am not an expert on this situation but I am focused. A lot on trump's foreign policy was sort of a bigger stance and and I've talked to Jen about this. I kind of see this from the view like yet another maximum pressure campaign by the by the trump residents. They like that but just on the Palestinians I I. It's you know again. This is kind of like giving Palestine and ultimatum or something that is is the hope is would scare them so much that they would come to the table and look. It's one thing to do that against A nuclear power like North Korea. It's another thing to do it against Iran which you know you've you supports terrorism and has missile program in might someday one a nuclear weapon as nothing to do it against Venezuela for To It's a it's a more tenuous situation but A leader later that has completely decimated as country and there's another opposition leader. WHO's has the respect of you know? Tens of other countries but to do it against Palestinians is morally repugnant and You know the the. There's just nothing it's not like they're really going against a lot of aims of course Hamas yes but this is not a designed this kind kind of design just doesn't really make sense for this situation. Yeah I mean I think that's exactly right it's The what what is so alarming and striking about in what you just described as of course. The power dynamics Israel is a regional superpower. It is a nuclear power. It is the only nuclear power in the region. It has the most powerful military military in the region By far I think that no one would question that and it has for a very long time and the United States is committed to maintaining that you know in the wonky lingo qualitative and quantitative edge. that Israel hasn't in terms of its security And the Palestinians are a subject population. They they are occupied. Their lives are controlled almost every aspect of by not just the Israeli government but by the Israeli army And that that huge power ballots Is is reflected in this In this plan and I think what makes it so egregious is is that. It's it's trying to institutionalize that imbalance and trying to get Palestinians to sign onto it It's one thing to say. Look you lost your the weaker party you have to make make compromises And it's another thing to try to to couch that as somehow peace Israel is already implementing this plan and so from Palestinian Palestinian standpoint. It's it's the status quo with the promise of you know this astronomical and highly unrealistic fifty billion dollars In aid in in order to sweeten the pot and let's not forget the Dead Sea resort right over trump company would be very happy to staff and fund right and that's one reason why they. They rolled out the economic part before political plan is is. This is the key incentive in their view because politically. It doesn't offer much it. It really early Is a a an extension of the status quo With some cosmetic changes. I should add with the potential promise of some cosmetic exchanges down the road if Palestinians behave. So there's not a lot of incentive therefore Palestinians because it's not all that different from from the status quo and what it's asking Palestinians to do is to permanently surrender not just militarily but took permanently give up Their most basic rights and to agree to live as a subject population That is still controlled by Israel. They can call it a state but a state is a word word has meaning and if a state doesn't have real sovereignty yes it's true. Lots of states have limits on it on their sovereignty but there are no states. That have no sovereignty The it's one thing to have limitations. It's another thing to simply erase the idea of sovereignty and and self-determination off determination. Yeah I'm just to jump in really quickly. Would it make sure that listeners are clear we touched on earlier. When you said there was a Israel would have the security blanket? But I wanna make it clear what the the actual plan plan says just for people who understandably properly didn't read the eighty page-long plan it. Sounds like a real estate brochure. So it basically tells this future your State of Palestine the You you can have your state you can have. You can call it your state. You can have your capital outside of Jerusalem but you can never ever in perpetuity ever have a military that could ever threaten Israel that could even defend yourself. They can have an internal police force for internal purposes Policing leasing but it also says that Israel can essentially rescind that at any time and take over control like it literally spells out in detail. This isn't just us us being hyperbolic it literally spells out in detail that eventually you won't even you don't even have a state right away eventually. You know I think you put it perfectly. If you behave. We heard Jared Kushner say in one of his interviews. He was doing after the plan came out Something the effect of a and I'm paraphrasing but it's close The Palestinians can earn when their independence and earned their dignity which I think really put it in pretty stark terms for a lot of people that the the idea that humans would have to earn dignity that they don't inherently have dignity. Andy is probably one of the most offensive things I've ever heard from government and I've heard some pretty offensive things and it really just showed I think the world and in particular Palestinians just how much you know how little value the administration puts on their lives on the value. That's one thing that people noted throughout Out The text I read it is. It's discussion of the Palestinians is remarkably condescending. Not Not just in jared's interviews but actual text of the plan the way that it refers to them especially in the refugee question. I found that to be particularly condescending. In the way that it's I it's absolutely true and it's a sort of plan that you come up with when when you don't see Palestinians as having any real legitimate history or narrative or or even basic rights And so there is an element kind of dehumanization that that is sort of been so internalized that it's completely unconscious frankly in in broader American political culture but certainly only on the far right Both in Israel and in in the United States and that's reflected in this plan. This is a plan that doesn't even even recognize the notion of Palestinian agency or the value of Palestinian Agency Palestinians are you know and you know the the interviews with with Kushner are almost unbearable in that sense The the level of contempt that he expresses for for Palestinians is is really a parent and It's it's you know like I said it's reflected in all of the details of Of this plan so take a quick break right now and then when we come back after a are lovely advertisements we will talk about where Israelis and Palestinians go next after after this plan. This episode is brought to you by these sinful delicious. Seven deadly sins America's favored Zinfandel. It's a full bodied wine. Produced in lovely Lodi California. And it's dark intriguing and a real crowd pleaser in fact we're GONNA bust them out right now and by we. I mean me and my cohost Jen Williams. WHO's a former bartender under? 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But in this in this sort of wine pellet it tastes awesome. I actually I would strongly strongly recommend buying this widen for all of you. Who are listening at home? Jen I'M GONNA keep drinking. Okay gents GONNA drink so make sure to visit seven deadly wines dot com slash worldly to learn rican find some more about this hedonistic seductive wind and get some of it you can buy it online in some states and have a ship right to your door or you can just pick it up at a store near you and you should again. It's very good. Go ahead and visit seven deadly wines dot com slash worldly and taste temptation with seven deadly sins. Hey I'm Jason Delray I. I recently wrapped up the land of the giants. The rise of Amazon in this podcast we examine how Jeff bezos turned a small online bookseller into one of the most powerful our phone companies in the world. We start by exploring how Amazon prime became a service with over one hundred million members and the main source of the company's power. I mean I think that's kind of what Amazon's banking on right that you're just so locked in. You're going to go to any other sites 'cause I don't and we end this season by pondering. The question is Amazon is onto big you know and we just don't WanNa be the United States of Amazon. We just really don't land of the giants has been recommended by the New York. Times axios wired and more. It's a candidate. Look at the state of Amazon today. How we got here and what the future might look like? The entire first season is out. Now find out more and binging on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP. Welcome back listener. I one thing that struck me when we were talking earlier is when you were talking about. The sort of Israeli political divide on that I was in Israel Palestine in November roughly on a reporting trip for feature that look out for it should be coming out before the Israeli elections in March. And I've been talking to some of my contacts on the Israeli side after this plan came out. Who are especially the ones on on the real hardcore anti-occupation left that's a small dwindling numbers rallies? But there's still some of them. Are there air right. And they're they're not just dismissing this as a plan. That's unlikely to happen right. They are scared. I think is scared and frustrated. And it's sort of ironic resigned fury depending on who you're talking to about it and the reason. Why is that? They see this as as a green light. For changing the parameters of what's acceptable inside Israeli politics that in the past needed to abide by the sort of general American set out terms of two states negotiate by the two sides but now a blueprint that so heavily favors Israel. They are concerns earns that there will be no one in Israeli politics will be able to walk it back to say the Americans offered us this thing and now we can settle for less than that at And so while it is the case that there is still a representation of this kind of Zionist left view in Israeli politics. It's it's much much much. Smaller used to be dominant it. Now it's small and there's the there are the Arab parties that obviously Third largest block right now in Israel's can that's IT and Or parliament rejects the plan and its entirety. I it seems that the the mainstream in the way the caller was talking about has been shifted. So far right that I don't I don't know how we who undo the the damage that has done in terms of what Israelis believed they're entitled to by the Mere Act of offering this plan right and I think you saw that. I think it's really important when president trump On Tuesday Tuesday. I have no concept of time when president trump on Tuesday at the White House basically unveiled this plan. He upstanding extra Benjamin Netanyahu when he trump made a lot of broad statements in this big grand speech and then Netanyahu spoke and if you listen closely to what he said he said very clearly that essentially the United States has finally recognized that Israel has legal and historical claims to Judea today and Samaria. which is that Netanyahu in reading this plan in hearing the words the trump administration was saying interpreted that to be the American has finally agreed that these settlements in parts of the West Bank and other parts of what is occupied? Palestine are not only not illegal. Their legal There also we have a historic clamp to it right. This is the kind of Israeli far-right a dream is to hear an American president. Say That now. Trump didn't actually say those words but in the plan by saying that in this agreement that Israel would annex this thirty percent of the West Bank bb came out. Benjamin Netanyahu came out and said look this is how we interpret it anything. That was such a stark moment for me it. It was like right then I saw okay. That's it like. They are going to to annex this. They feel like they just got the green light and sure enough. He said that his cabinet. Going to vote on Sunday on annexation of that chunk of the West Bank But but it's interesting because on the one hand you right. I mean that that's taken directly out out of the out of the plan that They are acknowledging that Israel has illegal in historical claim to all of this land and therefore anything that they give up is a concession On their part and extraordinarily magnanimous and Palestinian should be grateful And so denying the the flip side of that of course is denying. The Palestinians have any legitimate emmett historical or legal claim. Not just that it's debatable or disputed but but it doesn't exist and they are there by the sufferings of Israel and the enormous Miss Magnanimity and generosity of the Israeli state So that comes out. But what's what I find. Remarkable about that is that these are the very same aim people who jared Kushner going around saying. We can't look at the past. You have to divorce yourself from the past. That's how you have to look at this plan. So on the one hand he's saying Israel has historical claim but history does it matter He actually means as Palestinian history doesn't matter only our view of of of of Israel and design EST narrative and that history matters And they're also saying that Israel has a legal claim but at the same time are saying international law no longer matters. That's the fundamental contradiction. And what makes this plan. Such a farce is that whatever broad principles they lay out our so so easily and They simply contradict themselves At at every level I just WANNA point out. Also it's important to remember. Are you know we can criticize this plan all day and all night and and many of us do but it's important to remember how we got here. The trump the plan did not emerge in a vacuum. And there's real continuity if we look at past administrations. And this was a a a major theme came in my book In which you know I basically lay out the case for How previous Administrations Pave the path for trump to do exactly what he could what he did Passive Ministration said things like settlements are bad But you know what Israel go ahead and build in these areas that you and I agree on you can build in the settlements you can build in Jerusalem you can build for natural growth. You can build in in In the settlement blocks so they've carved out all these loopholes they said to four to The resolution UN Security Council resolution. Two four two means Israel has to end its occupation Asian But you know what You can take your time and you can define what that means On on your own terms and maybe you don't have to fully end rocky occupation And or fully withdraw from territory as international law requires so they made all of these compromises along the way and basically allowed trump to say Look that old approach didn't work it didn't work not because the vision was wrong but because of because because previous administrations basically contradicted their own vision and undermine their own process And so I think that's an important distinction to make is it's true that the previous administration's failed and the old approach failed but what was problematic about it. was that approach that contradiction of ignoring ignoring the own rule book of their own peace process But the vision itself was was acceptable idea of a two-state solution idea that the Palestinians would finally have an occupation and and gain sovereignty and self determination But what trump has done is sort of Continued the same approach while doing away with even the pretense that there's a rule book at all and working linked to your book in the show notes and I wanted to note. We didn't didn't tell listeners This earlier but you actually previously in your life. served as an adviser to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah on permanent status negotiations nations with Israel. So two thousand and four thousand nine okay. So that's an interesting time. Yeah so I wanted to ask you as we wrap up because you obviously have Some insight into what the Palestinian leadership at least at one time was thinking I'd love to hear your thoughts on where to the Palestinians go from here You know we talked about the the Palestinians I mean both the Palestinian leadership of my Bass In the West Bank but also have asked the organization that the rules with an iron fist. Gaza So what do they do going forward. What are you expecting to see? What do you think is going to be their response? We've already seen their initial response. bests basically came out and said you know Orlando's not for sale. Palestinians are not for sale and Caterpillar categorically rejected it But more broadly going forward in terms of strategy in terms of what what do what do they do next you. I mean I think leadership is trying to do a couple of things in the short term Week should expect expect him to go to the United Nations and try to get a resolution condemning the plan and and sort of reaffirming the international legal norms of of the peace process And the Palestinian rights more generally He'll try to get statements from Arab states. So he'll go to Egypt he'll go to Saudi And try to get them to come out strongly Maybe do something with the Arab League In the short term and all the while trying to get other countries to recognize a Palestinian in state that's the thrust of the leadership's strategy right now is to preempt all of this by getting West European countries in particular to recognize Palestinian Palestinian statehood over the long term. That's where you have a problem because there isn't a strategy or a vision that this Palestinian leadership or really even the one in in Gaza has a has for both ending occupation and bringing about Palestinian statehood That has been the case for a very long time It's just is much more exposed now that we no longer have the pretense of a two-state solution or or something called a peace process that they could in the past. They could hang their hat on now. That's it's not even there and they're sort of flailing I think the first order of business for Palestinians is going to have to be closed ranks and to To fix their house. Think one of the conditions that has allowed A plan like this to go forward. is Is the the the fact that you have a dysfunctional and divided Palestinian leadership. That's highly highly problematic. It's a classic colonial Paradigm of divide and rule so very easy to play one party off the other and Israel. Does it I think with With great Efficiency Ineffectiveness So the Palestine. These Palestinian leaderships both the PA and the West Bank and Hamas and Gaza have allowed themselves to be played And and and have lost sight of the bigger picture. I think that's a real source of frustration for ordinary Palestinians both inside Palestine and outside. So I think if the Palestinians want to confront this they have to They have to somehow revive their their national politics reform their institutions And basically basically fixed their house first and then from there they could go on and decide. Well maybe we just abandoned the idea of two states and and demand equal rights in in one state Eh Or they decide to stick with a two-state solution and pursue some diplomatic A plan but none of that's possible in the current state of of disarray that we see Palestinians in And it's entirely possible that Palestinians when they take to the streets against this plan Could very easily direct their anger toward the Palestinian leadership at the very same moment. And that's a real risk for For the leadership I interviewed a couple of experts but one in particular willing to show notes about what Palestine would would do next Palestinians would do next and the big conclusion I got. Is that actually this peace plan and will end up strengthening Hamas At least in the short term because as rightly mentioned you know a week that whole the Palestinian Authority is weak did they. They have pushed for diplomacy but right now with the trump administration basically taking a diplomatic solution on the table for the time being. Well those who advocate for a sort of violent in response Hamas in Gaza might have The upper hand in the short term Because the the main strategy at the moment is going to be to keep conditions kind of before kind of as they were before this peace plan came out and outweight trump. We have the he has the election in November. If you lose his well then you're gonNA have a Democrat who will be much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause well like I mean more than trump by his hostile bad. That's that's more accurate. That's fair yeah less hostile and so that's going to be the plan going forward but this is I think those attention to look Out For his how the the passing authority continues to try to go back to to what it was before This week while my stress to gain some strength a- An- An- An- outmaneuver the more diplomacy vocal. I've always It's a really good point One thing that I've always been frustrated by you know from from observing this conflict for a long time. Is The you know every time that the Palestinian leadership tries to take some international outlet or take some diplomatic outlet right they go to the to the international bodies and say hey can we get recognition. They go to the U. N.. And say hey can you need to do something about settlements They go you know. Say Hey will participate in this peace process in this peace process in this negotiation and that negotiation and it seems like you know every time that it's the US that will block that Avenue Rights writes. They know I'm sorry you can't go to the international community because you guys need to deal with this in the two of you so but don't bring the international community and we're going to block these resolutions on settlements And just to remind people. Obama did block the resolution on settlements till the very end of his administration. When for the first time he decided to abstain but it was like the last days of his administration he decided to abstain? And that's resolution Lucien condemning the settlements past you know like holid- mention you know even previous administrations including Obama did have these mixed messages when it came to settlements and and Israel And so the problem is that the more you cut off these legitimate peaceful diplomatic avenues. The fewer avenues are left besides violent resistance. Right the more you say. I'm sorry you can't go to the International. Ah I'm sorry. You can't actually have these negotiations because we just started with Israel and you can take this plan or leave what's left right and you're also not allowed to engage in the most basic form of protests Something like a boycott which is quintessentially the American In terms of our civil rights movement our history the history of civil disobedience boycotts are central form of of speech whether you agree with it or non on whether it's effective or not is different matter but but it's absolutely true that Diplomatic avenues have been closed off all forms of nonviolent resistance R D legitimized And so it really Corners I mean of course the aim is to force Palestinians under duress as a lawyer lawyer would say To negotiate on the terms dictated by the stronger side And and so I mean it's pretty clear that even if you were to get some sort of a quisling Palestinian leadership that would sign on the dotted line that would be an unsustainable agreement in any case Palestinians would reject it You know we. We've seen these kinds of colonial projects in the past where they try to set up a new leadership that is more moderate more malleable And it doesn't it doesn't work so you know this is This is what what I'm happen to believe that the the ball is now in the Palestinian court it is up to them. It is not up to the Arab states. It's not up to the Europeans to save two state solution. If in fact that's what they want it is up to them They have to sort of capitalize on their own agency and as I said fix their own house first and then and then they you will be able i. I think to undertake a any number of of a diplomatic or political courses but it all starts with I kind kind of having a a unitary and cohesive Palestinian political entity of some sort when we talk about agency there's agency on both sides right like these rallies are not. I just a fixed object whose goal is slowly to crush the life out of the Palestinians. I don't want that to be the the picture that our listeners have leaving there are deep and profound political divisions inside Israel and I. It's worth injecting another note of nuance here. Because while it's true that the two major parties blue and white center right party and Likud the right wing party and governments have both accepted. The plan balloon white has been very subtle in their messaging about it. They've pushed for a parliamentary. Henry vote on their plan knowing it will fracture these really right internally because the hardcore settler rights wants to reject this entirely because it recognizes the idea of a Palestinian in state They have suggested they want to. They want to push for annexation of Palestinian land but only in conjunction with any kind of Some kind of international consensus or agreement from other countries. which will not happen? The United States is not alone or United States is not enough at least in the messaging and the way they've described set which would indicate that they wouldn't actually do the annexation. I'm not trying to set them up as a sort of morally pure or like peace knicks. They aren't But the Israeli elections in March are really important for the state of this plan. How Prime Minister Netanyahu with an empowered power right wing government who finally wins reelection And is able to get rid of the ongoing legal case against himself handle this peace plan. Is I think. Quite different from a government led by boone whites Bennigan's especially if his coalition partners end up being some combination of the left wing or centre left parties with tacit support from the outside from the Arab parties. which is he's ruled out? But Israeli politics is weird. Lots of things can happen differently. That's the understatement of the year. I think the core difference between the blue and white blog on the one hand and then to now who's a ruling coalition on the other is in terms of annexation if if Netanyahu wins becomes his prime minister setting aside his court case. I think we're much more likely to see Formal annexation on at some level particularly in the areas thirty percent of the West Bank that the trump administration has given them If the Blue White Coalition wins I think that becomes somewhat less likely but still a possibility Certainly it's a difference You you know you who shall Of the breaking silence was in Town Hound and a couple of times in his analysis of of Israeli politics. I think is very apt in that. Is there's there's a there's basically two camps there's the control camp the one that wants to maintain indefinite control over Palestinians and the land More or less in perpetuity And then there are those who want to formally annex it so there's a control camp and there's an annexation camp and so that's basically where Israeli politics is it's whether the occupation will continue as defacto on a defacto basis and ultimately defacto apartheid. Or whether it will be apartheid so I'm not sure from a Palestinian standpoint whether there would be. There's a whole lot of difference there. Although I don't know what when and I met with him I met with him in Israel and also to you also illustrated. There's there's a third camp. There's the peace camp which is trying really represented in the Knesset. There's a small number of them. It's very true But it's also the case in India who does view in this sort of optimization people on the Israeli left that control doesn't just mean gene permanent control over Palestinian land it means security it means control over Israeli. Of course they're justified in the language of but but what it means on the ground is control over Palestinian. Oh sending lives right but it that also could be. Depending on the correct forces. The international forces in balance of power and pressure put on Israel could militate in in a direction of backing away from the facto. International pressure can in fact change Israel's behavior and it is the only leeway to change Israel's behavior because Israel right now has no incentive either for a two-state solution or one solution both of which involve giving up a measure of power and privilege for the Israeli Jewish majority In which is frankly not that appealing and so why would they give a privilege and power unless they are compelled to by outside forces and have an incentive or in some cases a disincentive of from continuing to maintain the status quo. Hello I would love to do a whole nother episode college about what the international pressure could look like. And if there's any possible optimistic take on the world's most depressing political title issue but for now I wanNA thank you very much for coming in and talking with us. I really really appreciate you taking your time. Thanks for having me. Hope you have another book coming out because I lindsay great soon And as always I wanNA thank our engineer. Malachi produce producer Jackson Beerfeltz. They want to encourage you to rate it and subscribe and review worldly wherever. Get Your podcasts. Thanks a lot everybody I ally.

Israel United States Palestine Israel Palestine Jen Williams Kushner Jared Kushner trump Jerusalem West Bank Hamas Prime Minister Netanyahu Palestinian Entity Palestinian Agency apple Egypt Palestinian Authority America Vox media NJIT
Of Millstones and Guardian Angels - Gospel of Matthew Part 25

Exploring My Strange Bible

45:18 min | 2 years ago

Of Millstones and Guardian Angels - Gospel of Matthew Part 25

"Gold. Hey, everybody, I'm Mackey and this is my podcast, exploring my strange bible. I am a card carrying bible history and language nerd who thinks that Jesus of Nazareth is utterly amazing and worth following with everything that you have on this podcast and putting together the last ten years worth of lectures and sermons. Whereas been exploring the strange and wonderful story of the bible and how invites us into the mission of Jesus and the journey face. And I hope this can be helpful for you to. I also helped start this thing called the bible project. We make animated videos and podcasts about all kinds of topics and bible theology could find those resources at the bible project dot com. With all that said, let's dive into the episode for this week. All right. Well, in this episode, we're going to keep exploring the gospel according to Matthew. These were teachings that I did number of years ago when I was a pastor at door of hope church in Portland, and we worked through slowly over a couple years whole gospel of Matthew. This episode takes us into Matthew chapter eighteen. Jesus has been on a long road trip from the northern Galilee region of Israel Palestine where he just did a lot of his work in the first couple years of his mission. Then he started on a slow March towards Jerusalem for Passover, and he'd been trying to invite his disciples specifically closest followers into a whole new vision of the world. The kingdom of God vision, which has a whole upside-down value system than the way were raised to normally think about other people and status and and how you live is a human being. Matthew chapter eighteen represents kind of a stop on the road trip where Jesus takes his disciples aside and tries to help them understand what this upside down kingdom looks like when it comes to resolving conflicts and relational problems within the community of Jesus. Matthew chapter eighteen is full of very, very practical teachings about what the kingdom of God looks like on the personal individual relationship level. Here it's going to start with Jesus offering a very strong warning to one of his most famous warnings using vivid imagery. But essentially he's going to urge his disciples at one of your most important tasks. As a follower of Jesus is to become a student of your own character flaws and how you hurt other people without knowing it and the more you become self aware of how you hurt other people without knowing it, the more you will become a life giving member of Jesus fam-. Only to the people around you. This is a very practical and profound teaching that Jesus gives. It invites followers of Jesus into a journey of self discovery of self learning and of growth of transformation. So really powerful stuff. Let's dive in learn together. Hey, everybody. Are you guys. Happy Sunday. I'm great. I'm great. I'm really tired, but I'm good. Welcome to door. Hope. It's good to have you here Sunday gathering and we are going to do we always do. And that's open the scriptures and look to the words of Jesus and learn and have him as a case today, deliver a swift punch and the GATT for all of us happy day. Invite you to open a bible or turn one on and turn to the gospel. According to Matthew chapter eighteen eighteen. I'm into orientalists. We've been going through Matthew just take slow route. We're in this section. I think it helps us to orient, you know what sections were ins, we go through and so we're in what I call the road trips. Action Jesus on a road trip. He was way far north this town called cesary Phillipine, and he had this really key conversation with his disciples. About who he is and who he asked them, who they think is starts really trying to make it clear to them that he believes that he is the messiah. He's the king of Israel and the king of the world, and he's beginning this March to Jerusalem where he's been announcing the kingdom of God, and it's all going to come together in a coma nation, and he's going to Jerusalem to enthroned and to become recognized as the king, but for for Jesus, what that means is very different than what that means for the disciples because their mind we're, we've been seeing what they think it means Jesus is going to go, you know, rock them sock them, this kind of thing, right? He's going to he's a king. So what kings do they go in and crush their enemies? And. Vanquish their foes, and you'd be elevated and enthroned and so on. And so here's what the section about four chapters right in the thick of every story and teaching about Jesus striking at the heart of this misunderstanding and trying to address it and show them the kingdom of God. He's here announcing its. We've been through this over the last year's upside down kingdom, and he's going to become king by giving up his life. He's the suffering servant king of as Asia, and he's going to conquer the kingdoms of this world by letting their evil conquer him and him conquering with his love resurrection life. And so that's an, they don't get it. The disciples don't get it. And so because they fundamentally misunderstand who Jesus is still, they fund fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be a community of his followers. And that's specifically chapter eighteen is about and it's kinda like this. There's that he's going to deliver a swift punch to the, you know, the teachings of Jesus are won't make you feel warm and fuzzy and the love of God. And then there are other teachings of Jesus, the terrify. Can you guess which one today is so. All find a way to make some light moments, but there's not going to be a lot today. Just, you know. But this misunderstanding, it's like Star Wars next hour. So December fifteenth. You guys never fifteen and I don't know. I I'm pretty sure I'm not going to do the Thursday night. Well, one thing, but I'll get in there within the first week anyway. I'm too old for that. So I need my sleep. That's what I'm saying. So December fifteen. So here's what those of us Star Wars enthusiasts. Here's what we know. We know that the debacle that happened fifteen years ago, the tragedy to hit the Star Wars universe happened because of fundamental misunderstanding and that fundamental misunderstanding was that Star Wars, the children's story. And so that basic misunderstanding produced characters like jar banks who are an insult to the Star Wars universe in my in my humble opinion. And so this ridiculous there was just so ridiculous. Right? And so it's a misunderstanding because if you. What you know what you should know, the Star Wars universe is a dirty and dangerous place. It is not a place for children is this is a Sifi slash western slash drama. And the opening scene of the first movie is not jar jar Binks Darth Vader crushing the cartilage of man's throat and you hear it. You know what I'm saying? With me here. That's the Star Wars universe. It's dangerous, right? It's been. So here's what we're all wondering. What is j. j. Abrams is you're gonna get it right. Anybody's no one cares. It's a big deal to me. I know it's a big deal to Cameron at least. There you go. We talk about it quite a bit actually. So there's, but that's the point. If you find the mentally misunderstand what something is you're just going to go and perpetuate even more misunderstandings right and more miss applications and so on. And that's the heart of the road trip. The plot tension of the road trip section of Matthew, the disciples don't get who Jesus is. He's trying to communicate to them and they just don't understand and therefore they're going to misunderstand what it means to be a community of his followers and try and follow Jesus together. Look at the question that they asked at the beginning of chapter eighteen. This was from last week, but look at that time. The disciples came to Jesus and said, Jesus who's who's the greatest person in the kingdom? What does it take to be the most important influential person in the community of your followers? And Jesus just like, what does we're not talked about anything at all over the last couple of years? So what does Jesus do. Right? He he doesn't actually say anything. What he does. He teaches visual parable, I and you get a child and he puts child in their mitts. And he says, be like this, you, you actually have no clue what the kingdom of God is about until you all become like this. And so this, this fun following Jesus and entering into the kingdom of God. It's this, it's a fundamental challenge to all of our ideas about what it means to be human and civilized and live in society, and it's different than how we were all raised in our families. It's upside down kingdom where the most important is the least important and word. Having influence means letting other people impose on you and serving and loving others and coming underneath them. That's what it means to live in the community of the serving king. And so what he's going to go out for the rest of this chapter is Jesus knows that we don't get it and he knows that we're gonna screwed up and he knows that we're gonna hurt. Each other as a result in the community of his disciples. So here's what he says for six. He's as if anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. Whoa, to the world because of the things that caused people to stumble, such things must come but to the person through whom they come. If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It's better for you to enter life main or crippled than to have two hands and two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if you're, I causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It's better for you to enter life with one eye than to have to be thrown into the fire of hell. See to it that you do not despise one of these little ones. I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my father in heaven. I mean, what do you think? Let's say there's a man and he has one hundred sheep in one of them wanders away isn't he? Gonna leave the ninety? Nine, I'm hill and go look for that one who wondered off and when he finds it, I'm telling you he's happier about that one then about the ninety nine that didn't wander off. And so in the same way, your father in heaven isn't willing that any of these little ones should perish. Hey, doing I was a little intense so execution by drowning. Self-mutilation, hell, angels and sheep. I mean, this is there's a lot of different images. But this all actually flows together as one coherent movement of thought. Jesus knows that his disciples, then every generation are gonna not get it, and we're going to as we grow to follow Jesus and try and live in the upside down kingdom. It's so counterintuitive in strange, we're not gonna get it. And one of the things that's going to happen as a result of that is we're going to fail at following Jesus as a community inevitably, and we're gonna hurt each other. And Jesus wants his disciples to take our own character flaws that are going to overflow the bounds of our own lives and hurt other people. He wants us to take those with deadly seriousness for our own sake, and for the sake of others and all of these images kind of fit together as to statements about that. And next week, he's going to know that we heard each other. And so he's going to give us some tools for comfort. Licked resolution. Let's next week and the week after that, he's going to teach us how to forgive each other. He's gonna tell us, try do everything. You can not to hurt each other, but you're going to anyway. So then learn how to deal with your conflicts, what you have hurt each other. And then once you've dealt with it, learn how to forgive each other when you're still hate the person and they go, he's talking about life in the church community, and he knows that it's going to be difficult. And so I was just gonna explore this week, these difficult things about dealing with with the darkness inside of us. So what he does, he has a child here that he just pulled in to the middle and he says y'all become like this. If you want, have any clue with the kingdom of heaven is about it's about dialing back your egos, all the things that just explored it's becoming a new human. Again, a sense of wonder, a sense of non judgmental towards others, and then look what he does this. You have to think of what's happening visually. He has the child here. And he says, y'all need to become like this little one, and then you can just of see him now pointing out to the circle around him. And he says, now if any one causes any of these little ones and it doesn't mean children anymore. He says, he means any of these who believe in me. Among the disciples here. And so he's calling his disciples little ones which is kind of cute until you realize. I think what he means that little little people little people are amazing, but how many of you actually remember life on the playground. Savage on the play. Again, tying about there's nothing more merciless than a fourth grader in powered by the pack of friends with the nerd, this brutal scenes, some of you lift them, some of you were the bully and some of you were anyway, you get my point. So Jesus knows he knows this. He knows if he's calling us to be like kids. He often does. We're gonna act like kids in that we're going to hurt each other. So we call his little ones. And here's this morning, he says, if anyone causes another little one, another disciple to stumble, quick execution by drowning would be preferable fate than that. Let's two things here stumbling. Now, some of the actually don't have the word stumble in your English translations. If anyone causes another little one, two while to sin and the others. Just those tip. There are some others, but those are the two main ones. So so here's what he's talking about here. He's a bible. So he's bar this actually this phrase from Isaiah chapter eight, and it's this image of somebody is trying to pursue move towards God, but something is obstacle in their way and they stumble, which could just mean you, you fail you fall down. So he's talking about how here's one disciple follower, Jesus. And then here's another follower of Jesus and this follow of Jesus has some really messed up character flaws. And so they do something to someone else who's a disciple of Jesus and their reaction say they like this people, this person, and then this person does is hurt them back or the way the way they react also causes them to not follow Jesus and they don't follow his teachings or something like that. And so there's point is point is when this person does that this person and then they are caused stumble like you'd actually rather be drowned, the. Than be the cause of another follower of Jesus to sin to stumble. And it's more than just tripping. I mean, image is like falling over. And so I think what he's getting out is is the ways that Christians hurt each other and then how that hurt can drive someone away from following Jesus all together. I mean, how many of you know someone and don't raise your hand many, many of you are the someone who's been so hurt by another Christian. You actually are disillusioned with Jesus altogether. I wonder if that's ever happened in the history of the church and Jesus knows that's going to happen. He and -ticipant it and he offers this warning against it. It would be preferable to surely picture of one of these millstones because there's plenty of them around Israel Palestine from the first century. He said that means the big salt stone would be rotated around and grind up. We in grain and this kind of thing. You say it would be preferable to stick your head in that huge stone whole, have it strapped to you and to go walk the plank in the deepest part of the gal that would be preferable then to own through your own sin, someone else being hurt and walking away from Jesus. That is so intense. So whatever you means by that he he actually, he means what he's saying here. He wants us to take with other seriousness the ways that we hurt each other in the church within the church community and look at what he says here, he develops the thought and it's really profound what he says. He says, woe to the world because of all of the things that make people's stumble. So he, he pronounces this, whoa, the sorrow on we live in a world. That's so screwed up and like even the best most healthy families have their quirks and unhealthy areas or whatever we live in a world that just constantly is making us all tumble and presents all these challenges to us through our families through our teachers and our employees and our people, we work with roommates. We're constantly making each other fall over all the time, whoa, to the what? A, what, a mess, the sticky web that we have wove. Even and we constantly are all bringing out the worst in each other was to that world. But whoa, also and look what he says to the world. He says such things, it's inevitable such things must come or some translations have. It's inevitable. Jesus says, it's inevitable that y'all are gonna hurt each other and make yourself disillusioned with being followers of Jesus, but also to the person through him. Stumbling blocks come. Now this we wouldn't use quite this language, but I think this is what he's saying. So think about. So you grow up in whatever in a family and it's normal family, which means that screwed up. And so whatever, you know, mom or dad, or siblings or something. And so you grew up super insecure, unstable, low sense of self worth. And so that generates all these survival techniques in you to make yourself feel stable and safe and so on. And so that might be by being bossy or bursts outburst of anger or being the bully on the playground or whatever. We all have different ways of dealing with fears and insecurities, and so then you have a whole childhood of those behaviors ingrained in, whoa to the world, right? We're beautiful. Little innocent baby spends a decade on the planet and becomes a really screwed up little creature, whoa, to we live in such a world, but will also to that human grows up and then goes on to perpetuate all of that in their own life and never doesn't anything about it and just repeats the cycle. I think that's what he's saying. Just the fact. That I grew up in a world that was screwed up and that hurt me doesn't. And Jesus is let me off the hook for perpetuating all of that through my own choices and misbehavior. Do you see what he's saying here? So what a mess, what a mess word. He knows we're going to do it, but at the same time we're all responsible. Jesus really wants each one of us to become a student of our character flaws that are going to spill over and hurt other disciples of Jesus within the community of faith and cares about this. We should care about this for our own sake. And I think that's what he means in this net section self mutilation of you want my job this morning trying to unpack all of this holy cow. So this isn't the actually the first time Jesus talked about this cut off your hand, gouge out your, I'd remember remember we've come across saying before this very characteristic of Jesus when he's serious. He will use shocking even violent imagery to shake you, awake. You serious about this. So so we saw them. This was back in chapter five, and it was where Jesus was talking about sexual desire and lust, and the little movies. We look at another human and we play the little movie and their object in our little fantasy world or whatever. And so he said, he said, looks at another person in less after them, their heart. And then here's what he recommends. So cut off your hand or your eye as if that's the problem. Now, just just two seconds about that. He just said, where's the problem? Whereas in your mind in your heart is gouging out one of your eyeballs really going to solve the issue. Do you really think Jesus thinks that's going to solve the root problem of less. But it did get your attention. And did it make you think he is deadly serious? Absolutely. And notice here he added the foot this time, right? So now we've got the hand and the foot and the I, here's what you need to do. You need to. If you're a guy, go to the proverbs study and every time you come across as you read through the book of proverbs every time the I, the hand and the foot is used in the poetry of proverbs and you'll get it, you'll get, which is the same here. The I is is a very Jewish image of how you see kind of intuitive this, right? But it's about how you see the world, how you see people, and then the hand is what you do, your actions, what you do and how you treat people because of how you see and then the foot is about the path that you're on the life path. And so in this case, it's about how you how you see people, you see yourself and how you see people, how you treat people because of that, and then how those instances and have. Treat people become habits and patterns. And so in grain that they shape who you're becoming, the shape your path and the kind of person that you're becoming and and all of this is in the context of how we treat each miss, treat each other in the church community. Let's just get really practical. I think we can illustrate this. So how many of you have ever been one of these conversations in church setting or whatever, and it's the prayer request slash gossips session. How many of you know what I'm talking about? Have you heard about so? And so we should really pray for them. And here's why. Here's the story, something they did something that happened to them, you know, private or used to be private or that kind of thing. And it's it doesn't put them in the best light at all. It's actually something that's maybe embarrassing, and we should really pray for them. What's happening right there, right? So we're putting this holy veneer over gossip, but there's a deeper issue and does gossip hurt people in a church community. You kidding me? I mean, people walk away with enormous wounds and pain because of the sin of gossip against them. So what's happening there? So if I'm doing the prayer request, gossip thing, what does that show? It shows something about how I see that person. Right? My eye, so I don't see that person's dignity as worth protecting. I don't see that person as important as me, whereas valuable that I should, you know, maybe think twice about who I shared really personal stuff with about this person and so I don't value them. And so what does that then informs my behavior, the prayer request gossip session. And then what happens when like I, I don't even think about it anymore. I actually think Mike helping and caring about people, but actually really destructive. And then it becomes a habit and years go by and we just constantly all do this to each other. And what happens in a church community that shaped by that practice by people who are becoming holy gossips. You know, I mean, that church becomes a toxic place. It becomes a place where in theory, we're following Jesus, but actually none of us will be honest with each other because we've all been burned by other, you know, for all the people who don't leave that community is just I'm not the way I'm going to share with my community group or whatever. What happened last time, you know what I'm talking about, and that's what he's talking about. And so Jesus, he's, he says, take that with such seriousness. Why do we? Why do we hurt each other? Whoa, to the world, the we get hurt by others. It's screws us up and then we perpetuate it, but well, teach us for just keeping the pattern going. And so Jesus says, you want to take this deadly serious nece you need to do whatever it takes to address your character flaws and it's not going to be convenient. It's going to it's going to feel painful and he uses these very visceral shocking images right of self mutilation. It's so unpleasant to have to own up to a deep flaw in your basic way of treating people and then to like, call those people and make the relationships right and on that. And then to be like, okay, I guess I need to go work this out with my mom finally. And then gosh, probably that means like beginning to see a therapist and so on. It's like it's difficult and it might even more radical changes in our lives that we need to make. And according to Jesus, it's worth it. It's worth it because the stakes are really high. And that's where the hell. The hell piece comes into this. Because the question is what kind of am I becoming a person who's who's heart is becoming slowly bent towards hell. Now let's go to hell. Image. Again, anybody want my job. Happy to give it to you hell okay, so here's, this is the second time Jesus is brought up the image of help in the gospel of Matthew and he'll bring it up one more time in each time kind of unpacking the last time Jesus used. It was in chapter thirteen and they're the key idea was in one of his parables and the key idea kind of repeat because it's key for right here for Jesus contrary to how most people think about what hell is for Jesus hell is a future reality. But before that it's they present reality and it's something that we create look at his line from Matthew chapter twenty three. He says, woe to you, gloves are off with the religious leaders of Israel by Matthew twenty three, whoa to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You travel overland to win a single con. Vert. And then once you've succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Now, just just stop to think about what hell is in the sentence. He's not talking about something the Pharisees are doing in the future. He's talking about something that they're doing now. They are religious hypocrite, and Jesus thinks religious hypocrisy is so destructive and so evil that to perpetuate it and create a community that perpetuates religious hypocrisy is generating hell you're perpetuating, hell. Did you see? Do you see what I'm saying? Just basic point because I often we read over this phrase and I don't think we let it sink in for Jesus hell is at least something that we create now through our own sin. And then what happens is that Sinn become so ingrained and shapes us and then your feet in the path of where you're going and saw it. And so then it becomes a future reality. And how do the two those go together. And so here we'll, we'll finally just a quick study about this word hell where this image comes and it's geeky and Hebrew Greek, and you know me, but this is really significant hells important part of teaching so we should pay attention. So here's here's our English word. Hell which itself has a really interesting history, the history of English language, but we don't have time for that. So hell our English word hell. And in the New Testament, the word hell translates the Greek word right underneath it, which is the Greek word Ganda. And here's what's really interesting is that Hannah is actually not a Greek word Nobu native Greek speaker who didn't live in Israel would even know what that word is. And that's because it's a Hebrew word spelled with Greek letters you with me. So it'd be like, say already to Kenichi Bah. Hello? Goodbye. And if I smell that an English letters, right? But that's not an English word. I'm dispelling a different word from another language you with me. Here. So that's what's happening here. So this is actually a Hebrew phrase guy. He spelled with Greek letters that gets translated as hell New Testaments, and here's what the Hebrew phrase means. The phrase, the means the valley of guy is the Hebrew word for valley, the him that's not early clear. Okay. So what so? And so it's an actual valley, it's a place and you can go there today. Would you like to picture of it? Of course, you had. So I forgot to ask Jessica's permission. To show a picture of her descending into hell. So she came at eight am anyways bit of his price. So there you go. When I was a student interest limb for a year in our apartment was not far from hell from him. So it's an there. It is. You're looking at it, it's the valley and what makes actually Jerusalem hill is not so much. It's height. There's another hill, the mount of olives, actually taller than what makes Jerusalem so prominent is these two deep, valleys that surround it? One is the valley of Hinna me, and then that's wings around and becomes the valley of Cajon guy could Trump so hidden valley. And here is where this whole image comes from all this imagery of hell in the New Testament. It's this phrase and this valley is full of dark evil memories in the Jewish mind, and you don't have to be a scholar like just go read the bible and you can learn all about this history in the book of second kings. We hear about one of Israel's kings about six hundred years before Jesus is name was Manasseh. And he introduced into Israel, the worship of a Canaanite God named Malek and Malek was the God who ruled the underworld world of the grave. And you could buy Molex favor with the with the blood of babies by sacrificing babies, and Manasseh introduced into Israel, the practice of child sacrifice and the worship of Molik, and he did it, and he built a number of Royal sponsored altars in the valley of them. The remains are not there anymore, but we know it was in that valley. And so so that's one practice these the offering and burning of the babies in worship of Molik the God of Israel. So angered he was so incensed by this practice through the prophet, Jeremiah and Gauri Jeremiah chapter nineteen. He talks about how Manasseh and Israelites have lit the fires of Hannam to consume the innocent and God is so angry. He's going to bring his judgment and Justice on Israel for this heinous act and that the form of that judgment is this the God's going to allow the ancient empire Babylon to come and attack the city of Jerusalem and besiege it cannonballs destroy the walls that whole whole thing. And then all of the slain Israelite soldiers and people who died in the battle. Jeremiah nineteen. There. Bodies, the corpses will be thrown into him. As as recompense for what they did to these babies as this is horrifying, you got, but this is this is a dark image that is buried deep in the Jewish mind. And so what does this valley about who lit the fires of Hannah? Who let the fires of. The Israelite people did right as an act of evil, right, and distorted worship. They think they're worshiping the gods, but really the gods of distorted it and calling evil good and so on. It's so we're killing innocent life by lighting fires in. And so what is God's judgment? Guts judgment is to give Israel over to its own evil and allow Israel to suffer the consequences of its own evil and the poetic Justice of their dead bodies being thrown into the very valley where they consume the innocent. Are you with me here? So all these images of being thrown into China were lighting, the fires of Gehenna. This is all rich, Jesus teaching, and so you can and this is God's Justice. He's not going to allow evil to remain in his city. He's going to remove it. And so Jesus is teaching. That's we've talked about this before the mission of Jesus kingdom is to get the hell out of earth and. To get the hell out of you and me if we would just allow him to do it, which is what he's talking about right now, and but this image of hell is this image of this defiant like don't tell me what to do. I'm just fine Jesus. I'm really not as bad as you're making me out to be. I'm okay. And Jesus is just like, don't be naive, right? We all have herald hellfire burning in us and we all keep contributing to it. And if we don't let God, he'll us, he will as a just God be obligated to at least remove us from his city so that we don't perpetuate it anymore. And that's the image of hell being removed from outside the city. In the book of in the book of revelation, it's a fate of our own making that God gives us over to and that is his Justice. And that's the consequences and the bible doesn't separate between those two. Did we make it or did God make it? That's it's all one deal in the bible. And so this, this actually doesn't. Make it less terrifying. It makes it more terrifying. It's that we actually currently choose these behaviors and we choose to perpetuate hell and Jesus. Like look at the path you creating for yourself, like, do whatever it takes to get serious about the hell burning inside of you, and then the hell that you're creating for yourself and that God will give you over to because he's good jobs. The paradoxical mercy of hell in Jesus teachings and so do it for your own sake, at least for your own sick. But he never keeps it self-focused you should. You should also do it address the flaws in the Senate inside of you that hurts out there. You should do it for your own sake. You also do it for the sake of others. Look at where he goes from here. For ten, he says, see that you don't despise one of these little ones. They're angel always sees the face of my father in heaven. Now, how many of you have heard of the idea or little children having guardian angels? Anybody, this idea. Do you know where in the bible that idea comes from. Here. And unfortunately, I just based on real misunderstanding. It's a beautiful idea. I just don't think you can find it in the bible anywhere. So who were the little ones in the teaching of who are the little ones that talking about children he's talking about, he's talking about right his his disciples as his little ones and also interesting. If if you had a guardian angel, where should that guardian angel be located? There should be with, you know, guarding you. It should be here on earth and where are these angels. These are up in heaven that are in God's presence. Here's this really profound Jesus saying think, let's get concrete thing about door of hope. Think about the person that you like least here door of hope. I'm totally serious thing about the person that you like least here at door of hope. And Jesus response to you would be don't even think of elevating yourself over that person or thinking that you're better entreating them accordingly. That person has a personal advocate before God advocating on their behalf. You're messing with the wrong person. This is courtroom imagery here. He's painting. God's presence is the place where everyone of his disciples has a prosecuting attorney. Excuse me, a defense defense attorney, right? Who's defending star, that really messed that up. So defending attorney, actually the who the prosecutor is in this heavenly scene prosecutor. It's the Satan, right? Was thrilled at the the accuser of the of the disciples anyway, tangent. So defense attorney, an angel who represents them before the father and for the person that you like the least and that you're most likely to look down on into mistreat. Jesus says, don't you're totally messing with the kings kid. You know, like they have a personal ear right to the king. Don't bad idea got even if you don't love that person. The father does, and he cares for them and in angel will speak on their behalf. If you're not going to the idea he's getting in our face basically. And then you can see how the parable of the sheep goes right from here, like the man cares about all of his sheep. But if there's one. One sheep that's been hurt or wounded and cause to be driven off because of being hurt by another disciple that activates the father's heart in a serious way. When one Christian hurts another Christian and makes this one like draw away or pull away from Jesus, it's like God's heartbeat starts pumping faster. And then it's all about that person. Jesus heart beats for for the lost in the parachuting. And you know, we don't wanna put ourselves on that side of Jesus. And you could boil spoil it down to this if I'm not going to address my own sin for my own sake, I should at least do it for their sake because God loves the people in my church community way more than I did, and I should treat them accordingly. I think that's his point. Hey, guys done. So man, what do you do with teaching like this. I think what we do is beyond and and repent. Like really be honest with the ways that I have friction in my relationships within a church community here, and Jesus knows it's going to be hard and he knows we're going to hurt each other, but that is not an excuse to not do anything about it. And the stakes are really high, your destiny that you're paying for yourself and that God will in his Justice give you over to. That's at stake. Not to mention the people that God loves. Jesus lived in died for that's also at stake. And so we go to this time of worship and taking the bread and the Cup. I just encourage you, some of us need. We really need to like repent and really finally own up to stuff that's wrong with us. And that hurts other people right here in this community and Semana encourage you to as we take the bread and the Cup today because this isn't just about Jesus, bringing the hammer he is. He is being really forceful with us, but just like conclude with this, think of the same Jesus who saying these words and getting in our face is the same Jesus whose marching to Jerusalem to do what. To actually bear into himself all of the consequences of the sin and evil that we perpetuate with each other. And so far from my wanting to annihilate us, he's actually going to his own death on our behalf because he would rather love us and save us than do away with us. And that's the Jesus uttering these words. And so as we take the bread and the Cup, we're eating these symbols of Jesus love and commitment to us despite how we hurt each other and how screwed up we are, and that's good news, but it's good news that messes with you and that that won't allow you to remain the same forces you to change. And so some of us need to come man. Some of us may be feel like some of these patterns of selfishness or sin, and we heard other people, they feel so impossible like, how could I ever been with me for so long since I was a kid or whatever, and you're right it. It probably does seem impossible that you could change, but it also is very. Improbable, that crucified messiah of should come out of that Tim as a new creation, and that he should give his own life presence in spirit to his followers to do things that don't seem possible. And so I would challenge categories of what's possible and it doesn't mean it's going to be magic. But it does mean with Jesus. There's always a way forward because of his love and his commitment. And so some of us we just need to be reminded of that truth. So I don't know what you need to do is you take the bread and the Cup today, but Jesus serious and we should be honest with him in with ourselves. They meant me close. Guys. Thank you for listening to exploring my strange bible. We'll continue exploring Matthew in episodes to come. So we'll see you later.

Jesus Matthew Jerusalem Israel Israel Palestine attorney Mackey cesary Phillipine Portland Hannah Isaiah Asia Cup Abrams Cameron Molex Savage Tim
H-Hour Podcast #77 Yaell Tzour

H-Hour: A Sniper's Podcast

1:32:13 hr | 1 year ago

H-Hour Podcast #77 Yaell Tzour

"Should I welcome back to the podcast? sponsoring talk today Rugby for Heroes Rugby Heroes A not for profit organization formed by keen rugby players and beer. And Sometimes Jin sometimes gin drinkers out of old lemon. Tony INS rugby. Football Club in Lebanon Spa West Midlands. Workshirt it's either the West Midlands or rock church which I'm still struggling to come to understand. Not Part of the country geography was my strong in. School is not my strong spot as an adult but then we go so anyway back to rugby heroes. They organize they fundraise formally reason they do that through. Organizing events every Multiple Times. They've been doing for over ten years now and they've raised one hundred thousand pounds four military Chinese then next event is no the next event you can get along too is on the eighth and ninth of. May Two Thousand Twenty v Day Weekend. A beer engine festival. It's going to be old. Ems are say in March. They have camping available. They have got rugby club so they've got a nice cheap drinks available chip good drinks. Let's go good prices They've got a free full display team jumping in. They've got his Bob Areas Rugby team play in which I remember. They've got also stunned music. Live music a shitload of stuff going on so if you want to know more if you want to get involved Goto Rugby Heroes Rugby Y. Heroes Dot org own social media. Rugby Hiccups is authentic rugby number. Four heroes Thank you to those guys a big thank you to Mike vallance force-sponsored. The book is of all the huge amount of work. He does for veterans not just what Rugova Heroes but other things thank you rugby number Heroes Economist in eighth and ninth of May follow them on social media anyway Every like you give to rugby. Heroes every follow rugby number. Here's gets gives me another little bonus point on the route to get in a Christmas card from Mike. Please help me help. For Heroes Help Veterans. Thank you also sponsored podcast today a westernise on West when they signed you know the UK's logically Sunday the ship because say every time you know they give you up to twenty percent discount off purchases if you are a civilian military person or a veteran you also know that the end the as Chani Lewis a previous podcast guests explanation south on the dry behind West Rain Assan. They do new and used vehicles. They do not only purchase beacon lease higher from Westwood. That's the kind of guys they are. Let give you lots of options. They do private kind of vehicles. 'cause they do pickups do vons you do commercial vehicles big events. They also do electric bills. They do the Nissan Leaf. Which I love. I don't if viewed as last year they greased me with one is getting some work done on my car on Canal. I was pleasantly surprised. I thought much your vehicle my friends my parents want no me but it was okay and I want to get my hands on a leaf. Fantastic piece of Kit. On actually reduce my assumption costs by seventy five percent is paying a court my my few over the course of a month and I was if I had a Combustion engine couldn't you K- Western is social media like those guys? My guest today is. I'm laughing because this is the second time because I ruined the first one. Yariel my Zoar Former officer with Israeli defense officials. She was born in Israel. Grip in Israel Hot Hot hot house you many grandparents and is being UK for significant time This was a foster in shots I've always been interested in the past on Israel conflict. War Problem Situation. Yeah is someone who has experienced it one from the military in Israel and to outside the miniature in Israel and three outside of the military and in the UK experiencing what people in UK think about. What's going on over there? I learned a lot less on without further ADO This hey John podcast with to enjoy up so pleasure jazz. What'd you say that I'm your name Hebrew? Way of saying tears. Which means for life is he briefed language. Where did you do in town? Yes my country. Okay so thank you come on cost really appreciate it. I said she didn't know that he who is my first language. Yeah No I wasn't sure no no. It wasn't under percents yet so brings onto. Will I know you you are a ex Israeli Defence Force Yep And well that's it and I know some of you I know some of literally stance with things to do with how the world but I'm going to honesty you you wanted to come on the podcast of when you you said yes. You know what I'm not so you go for it. How did you end up serving with eighty F- basically living in Israel? It's enough As everyone hostage joined the army So once you get to the age of eighteen. You're there unless you have a very good reason why you can't join the army which is usually physical mental If you've got married before the age of eighteen you cannot join the army if you get my before you're the age obey and you can join us. Defence fools volunteered. I think but you don't have to definitely don't have to interested. Yeah what if what if you join up when you're eighteen and so you still there okay. Why don't you join when you get my pointing because you have kids and family and stuff that you consider of the Israeli defence? I wouldn't have thought well I will tell you more new things about. He's gone so I was the idea what was training so the thing is that when you get to the age of eighteen you ready and you're full of motivation and basically from the age of three you. WanNa be a soldier. So this is the way they raise us This is in the education This is in the culture It's everywhere the songs you know. The movies You know all of your family members and friends. They've been there. They have stories That usually they shared the stories that you feel easier to relate. I'm so you WANNA be part of it And then when you get to the age of eighteen they need to convince you you want to be that And I think of course not everyone wants to be there but that was a voice that you could hardly hear at least when I was eighteen which was An so it's like an easy job to make me join the army and to make me Feel part of the group I'm you wait for the day to put your uniform owns you. Wait for the day to get your Rifle you you wait for that and so you very everyone excited you have a policy the day before And and it's everywhere it's in primary school secondary school high school. He talked about it. Like you don't like indoctrination. Would you say so? Who's asking a? I think that if we if we wouldn't meet meet like three years ago you would hear different things if we admit okay. What's your because just when I left Israel and moved here the UK. I for the first time thought about things I mean I. I'm embarrassed to say that. But they are so good in what they're doing that you really think it's the only way you really think that you have to. You really think that this is your destiny to be part of the Israeli army and and there are so many blind spot that no one talks about that you know. Eventually they become like they're not there so you have questions but no one answering them so one day that just gun And sometimes you don't even have the questions because it's clear that you shouldn't ask them and when I moved here I could see the face of you know of the public. I've met you know in everywhere. And I'm a bit chatty person so I've talked with everyone and once I said I'm from Israel you could see the face which was like really now all that they immediately asked. What do you think about the Israeli Palestinian conflict? Which was you know? I wasn't ready for that or that. You could really see that. They don't like me really yes. I wonder what people because my experience with Israel Palestine? My experience of what people think about that as I would say is I. I would say across my my group of mice of my friends. My lifetime friends all three of them as pretty much. Fifty fifty split in terms of the opinion is on the Israeli Palestinian problem. According problem by problem but it is swayed on on a different perception of the Israel of Israel and Palestine. Well of Israel is my background is predominantly ex is predominant militry and there is certain regard. Israeli defense falls a certain technology and the resources. They've got their weapons. Systems looked on in a positive light from a military point of view. I they al Qaeda But from from the problem is fifty fifty fifty split so explain more about that. What was that like? Then that first off being questioned about it and to have the feeling that people were not judge writings of Israel judging me okay And the beginning. I wanted to say I wanted to know why so I And don't love me. I just wrote What do we think about the Israelis You know just just know what Google my find into Google search. Yes I just wanted to know what the first thing that coming up. What did you search tim? What are you saying that you don't remember the exact quote but it was? You know the opinion about the Israeli or something like that because I wanted to know why people don't like me God Some even sent me back to where I belong to okay And things that I've you know the database that the average person you know basing all of their knowledge on Is Youtube movies. articles in every day on a daily newspapers and lots of those movies. Were they came out of my country by my friends. So all the left side of the left opinion like with Salem and and she'll Chica and so on the breaking descendants. Yes breaking the silence showrooms Deka thing. Yeah it's it's It's a group. Put the movement Breaking the silence which is really basically. Yes which is an ex-soldiers talking and telling the truth about how'd you spell out In Hebrew you can just write you know breaking decided Brooklyn for Russia Chicago Shovel Him. Stick chauvinist. Okay very good. Speaking Hebrew by the end of the and I was to be honest. I was angry because I I felt like why. Are you publishing those kind of movies? That may other people hate me. I was really angry. at least understood. What's going on over them when you those videos when you were in Israel not really not really like. I knew it's out there but I didn't know you know how strong they are And then and then I felt that I wanNA have my own database and I wanNA share it with other people so I start questioning Things that for me were fact Like the reason any other way we want to survive we have to fight the enemy And about the history and to realize how how many blinds they are in the history that no one ever talks about not needing school you know not in the family discussions not Between friends no one Part of the problem is with him. Put me with it. Correct me. Her Royal is. It's a touchy subject. Because the second movable was not that long ago in it's a touchy subject in terms of looking at Jewish history Israeli history but it's a subject history fascinates me. I've always been interested in what is taught what is Because there are cases are not saying is the case Israel. We've not had this conversation yet. There are cases in first world countries as well as a not so prosperous countries in different places around the world where alternative history is told for the wrong reasons Which are the good reasons for the government for the country for the economic for they? Someone you know. Wants you to know those things and wants you to not no other things to talk about. History that Utah. So and really as I said I feel. I'm embarrassed about all the things that I didn't know and that I just started to question now in learning now And you know what I'm saying. They're doing a great job and they know what they're doing and how to convince me that I WANNA be soldier. They don't really have to do Much because I've lost my uncle. I've lost my father Younger brother I've lost two friends for my close Not Talking about my year just might close I've lost people that I was with doing. My Service You hear about it you know. It's everywhere in conflict. Yeah so it's not. It's not a hard a tough job to teach me to think they are the enemy. Now I wanNA say something That I think it's really important before I'm going to show my opinions and thoughts everything that I'm about to say. Now I know that my Might enemy which is A figure of something that I don't know I never met you know it's it's something it's a concept they can say the same. It's horrible Palestinians. Right yes well. The Palestinians is no Palestine. It's everything Palestine was Israel as well So everyone before. They got their Israeli passports. They had Palestine Palestine passport and so they can say the same and they can contradict what I'm saying they can say. Actually you know it's exactly the same from our point of view but my job is to say my opinions and your job is to go and listen to other opinions and your job is to put question marks the end of my sentences and I feel that people get you know pizza for informations and they stored somewhere like it's now it's it's a fact and it makes them create their own point of view and now they know because yeah. I've watched two movies and I've read the book and I have a friend I have a friend is a is a very good database Resource So I really want to say what I think is my thoughts and my opinion and probably my brother and sisters how different thoughts and my parents and my my my two guards. My two beautiful girls would maybe have different opinions. Well what does he want to one of the reasons for this podcast? You're absolutely right of different opinions. One of the things that were over here we we do not have I say we like British people or myself saying we start with south of the benefit of being able to learn from somebody who was there an absolutely your experiences different to the next Israeli to next to next Israeli but they hold so much more weight than anything. I can read online because I can't validate stuff I'm sitting here looking at you and you can see face isn't gonNA see your expressions you your body language. I know so far be genuine go friendly and if I can start with the what we need to stop do doing is talking with us and them and as long as we are going to say us and then nothing is going to change because the first thing And it is the end of my of my monologue here once we realized we are all in the same. Can I say she can say whatever you want and we are drowning and we are the same situation so it doesn't matter if you are the one to blame. I am the one to blame. We are both going to die at the end and he talks about life. That's a shanty boat role in same place. Yes you call me acts. I call you why we're on the same with the same thing. Yes okay because Even if you soldier in you know if even if you fight for Israel and even if you fight for Palestine we just WanNa live. We don't want troubles we don't want dramas. We just want to live our peaceful life. And you know I have a nine years old daughter and a five years old so nine years ago everything changed everything everything. I believed in so if before that I really felt like you know this is what we have to do. We have to give few years of our life and maybe even our lives to protect this country because this is all I have and for me this is all I have. I have friends that has European passport or all kinds of different countries. My grandparents came from Yemen. I don't WanNa go back there. Even if I had the Yemen passport. I don't want to go and live there so Israel is all I have even now in the UK. I have less than a year. Then I need to go so this is my home and ever since I become a mother. I don't want to pay that price. I'm not willing to pay and I can tell you because we keep living next to the one that came back from the war. They didn't one they didn't win. They are not heroes. They are victims. Just like the one that didn't didn't survive the war so there are like dead men walking and we all have friends like this idea of every meal service basically but yes I mean. My Israeli friends I I know list you families that are struggling on everyday basis just because depression and ptsd and they just can't and it's been more than fifteen years and they just can't stand on the both faith and having no more life what is the tempo of operations like the idea of. So what can you do not want to give specifics obvious reasons? Wha what was the broad role that you're involved with the with the idea so mine and because I have glasses and I- condition and I'm female I couldn't go and be warrior which I really wanted to be okay. I felt bad about my service so what I could do and I was. I was an officer and I walked with teenagers and we went into high schools and we talked with teenagers and we help them make the right choice. A join so they have to join. Yes and what was the right choice? That right choice is at least make it meaningful. Okay at least make it something that you could a benefit from Be Really make a difference. and basically put your life in risk. Okay to be honest you know. This is the bottom line So this is what I did and today I'm thinking about you know I don't know how many kids didn't want to put their life in risk and did after what we did because we did a good job and now you know they're paying the price or the family. You should know guilt for that. Most thing you do we shouldn't L. Guilt that you act and what not what you know. Yeah you know focused programs and if he sees improvement than we go going back what? What was the temporary? What is the temple of offensive operations like the idea of where the Palestine's against Palestinians concerned So most of the idea of Work I would say had nothing to do with the Palestinians okay The the idea of is is organization that is built in society. So we walk a lot with you know with the communities we work with with kids And the risk The idea of gives home for teenagers. At probably you know would go into crime or something like that and they give them a house and education which they didn't hot so we have. I was part of the education department in in the idea of so. Where do we are doing many things? That has nothing to do with the Palestinians We also you know got this part of defending Israel and the definition of defending is where the problem starts Now I think that my main approach that has been changed for the last two years. Maybe a stat. I'm not thinking about I stopped defending our actions. But I also I'm not searching for blames. All I want to do now is to really understand the situation. All I really want to do now is to go back to history and see how things lead one to another and and you know. It's not that if I will say well. I know why the idea if acts in one way and I know why the Palestinians act on another way so now. I'm defending them. But I really want to understand the situation. You understand. I WANNA understand found in no So he said we have an hour and a quarter I I can really put everything there but all the contradicts that what you are what you. Yeah so for example. One of the things that the British people always ask me about. Balfour Declaration is about four declaration. And you know what I've been taught about it. What do I know what do I think was that the night you fifty six With a with a allocation land to the Palestinians so no on the ducati nine hundred seventeen. Basically a really yes. Jesus remind me that Jesus wasn't there and it's one of the things that I didn't know and I've learned is that there is a scientist is name is high invites mine which later was one of the Israeli prime minister but I was a young scientists and he came to munch sister and he was very clever and there was a situation in sorry from taking just part of this story about you come and there was The Germans occupied Belgian. But Yeah I don't know what you say And Belgium was the one responsible for Again Hebrew that we say the same. I don't onto save an acetone which probably under saying which is the fuck that thing in that will Create the fire The fire start so the fire. Burn and saying you can use it In the military forces. Okay I don't I I wouldn't Oh tapu probably Expanding so it's Today use it to take the Caller out of out of your news. Oh that's why So you don't use napalm that's GonNa talk and and then Britain was in trouble because they couldn't fight without you know against the Germans so Churchill himself find out. There is a scientist named high in vitamin that. He found a way to create this material and so he went to him and say. Can you help me in create more of this amazing thing that you just did suggest? Of course how much how are you doing? He said I'm using corn corn. Talking going to step away with okay And then he said okay. So I need you to do that. Didn't said okay. Let me know how much you need. And he said thirteen tones success of it And and then he said Okay and they brought from Canada corn. And they did it. And there is The vice president Lloyd George was the one who said We will we need to remember how fights mine himself helped us win The war Br British Prime Minister the Yoko Viessmann. Hey a maybe. Why Am Okay Hon? And his vice yes hi. It's likely Heim that I said we'll keep talking. I'm just I'm just ask can give you later on And so when Balfour Declaration started to There was you know. Many changes and the The version that we now know had many changes along the way explain what the ball for declaration was so the bar for the clinician is It's an act of goodwill Written by ball four himself saying that we support the Britain's support The Jewish country in Israel. Along other things which Semaine one one of the main thing was Without hurting any other non-jewish population in Israel at that time But without that Balfour Declaration will probably no country no Jewish country now for some reason and there are reasons of course it took almost thirty years and so the Holocaust came World War Two six million Jewish people and so even the public change their mind because the beginning dishonest. You Know Group. There were quite small. Wasn't the mainstream and people lived in the US in the UK and they said we don't want a Jewish country. We Wanna stay where we are. It's good for us where we are We don't want to have to homes just cut in so going back came Weisman. Okay so what are you developed was Affirmative action process that produced cordite. So we we know this medical aid you could. You could say gunpowder basically called exit type of that. I said loose definition of Ford. See That's interesting. I didn't know about nine seventeen I also didn't know that was the opinion of Israelis Israelis Jewish how small designers who was my understanding of of that g the history geographic area on the Jewish the Jewish relationship to the area that was Palestine was all Palestine is that an I am. This is a broad brush and have explained the past about doing some reading up in not area thousands of years ago so Z. Is GonNA drink wine? Thousands of years ago ain't none area on I want you correct me after this and I'm talking rubbish okay. Not with. That was years ago in the area. Like all of the world I mean thousand thousand thousand thousand years ago. Before countries there was a bunch of tribes area now Loza tribes not area which at least that's the area. It was a big area on through war through this through that through all sorts of stuff the tribes dissipated they moved to elsewhere adding the different lines. Like everything didn't over the world on the one that remained in was Palestine became known as Palestinians the Palestinian a trade state. They became Palestinians and Palestine. Not so I understand area. Broadly speaking the Zionists Lee clean to that land said We used to live there too. We should have bought land. That's my understanding. Yes so the only thing I would add to that. Is that the Palestinians that you're talking about. Some of them are Jewish. Some of them are Muslims. Some of them are Christians. They are different groups of people that stayed there like the British Christians. Muslims opin Jewish. We're British because we from Britain or English surpassed. The place is not a religion is not a doctrine okay. Cool and Palestinian Palestinians are people that live in Palestine but a Palestinian Jews as persecute. Rt treat was much Discrimination by Israel as Palestinian. Muslims did this does Israel differentiate between different religions within Palestinians. So once you have Israel and the boundaries of east the Israeli country you don't have Jewish people live in the other side of what we call Palestine but actually it's not a country yet. Okay we call it Palestine because it was the large space that part of it become Israel became Israel so whatever left it still Palestine because it doesn't have a name and this is what they got their name from from Palestine so when he's so what. Israel was established those Palestinian Jews for example the came to live in Israel. Okay I see now I see and so so. Just after the took thirty years for some reason For the ball for the conversion to come into actions and after World War Two you can understand why actually the public the Jewish population around the world is suddenly more supportive That idea Though most of them didn't come to you throw most of them moved to different Areas around the world. That were more safe for them. But it wasn't Israel And you know it's Palestine is one of the names. It's actually Palestinian Palestina. It's a Hebrew word is out of the Palestinians Pronuncia so they say yeah Palestinians Palestinian. Yeah that's a Palestinian but it's Palestinians the region region award from the Bible Basically So it was a matter of of Place where you where you live not your religion or your opinions. Nothing about And once we have once we have Israel and this is my story and it's clearly different to someone else who lived in the UK in the US in in you know South Africa whatever. My grandparents came from Yemen. It wasn't safe to be Jewish in Yemen. Like it's not safe to be human being in Yemen now sorry And when my grandmother was four. She lost her mom and what they did back then for an often. is to Make them get married with a Muslim men. So what you do. Is You keep those garrison safe them? He didn't somewhere and DHL F- you know when she old enough to get married which was twelve. They she got married with a nine twenty five years old man which is my grandfather and only when they got married. They could live Israel because before that she couldn't leave by herself you know she's a woman who's you many So it was a Jewish Yemen. Yeah so And you know I wouldn't forever remember that story how my grandmother said They took me somewhere. They said you see there at the third floor. There was a man. You're going to marry him tomorrow. And and this is the story my two grandmothers and then only then they could move here so basically those men saved their lives and saved my life because I could be another twelve years old Yemen. Jewish girl getting married So for me. If we didn't have east royal I didn't know what was my future would look like so when you ask me about. What Zionist is for me for me as an option to live and I wanna live and that's why I don't want wars with anyone but give me the option to live because we didn't have any other place to go. It's not like in European on the in in the US when you could say. Were taking everything. Let's say that we could We could see what's going on and we could predict the war and we took everyone and we moved to a different place. We didn't have that so for me. Israel is my only house and so sometimes you know the defense mechanism and the. It's a cognitive dissonance that predict views and not reality so sometimes I won't say a lot of things about Israel just because I know that I can't say something bad about the only country I can live in so sometimes you know I have to shape my opinions a little bit and make them more I benefits acceptable to yourself. Yes so you're trying to you're trying to portray your China exp- on again. I tell him you're trying to explain something about your home country about to. You is a negative thing about your your home in trying to work knowing. That still speaks the truth but on you as an impact to your loyalty has a minimum impact. I understand that I think and and you know even living here for the last three years sitting here in this amazing town and saying bad things about And saying bad things about my country. You know it's hypocrites. It's not you don't do that. I can't see to hear being safe here in my friends. I have many friends that live next to Gaza Strip. Because it's cheaper there and and it's It's you know Keyboards coupon was it. Made the The beginning of I forgot the word You know within just came to settle down in Israel and they created those small groups living in different areas around Israel. Some yeah but it's it's different kinds of And so the families are there for the last sixty years seventy years so far agriculture that can thing. Yeah one part of it yeah. Yeah it's more of this Google don't trust and The PA THE THOUGHT. I ain't dummies as part of the thing with that. Is that that opinion. South are you shouldn't say about things that way from way was being good for you on the whole. That's not right. It's just something we brought up with is the same for anyone anywhere. America you talk Africa Africa. It's you know we we loyal to a good fries and especially with Rachel about you. Toy Doc nation and government and the way you brought up in the culture within you up and it seems to go against looking at the negatives is one of the positive but you absolutely should be should be looking at you. You should look at everything you should but it's very difficult to you. Should look at everything with a completely open mind yet I think of. Maybe they're also about things in which the only thing is but then when you go and talk with someone don't forget so I really believe. Don't forget where you're coming from and don't forget where you have to go back to so. I'm not saying I'm going to say good things about bad actions. I'm saying if I want to say something to convince you to convince my friends and my family. I'M GONNA SAY IT in a way. That would make a different not. Just sit down and say yeah. This is bad this is bad and we are horrible people. Now if you ask me and not just me but if you ask me. There is a huge Similarity with what? The Israeli wants and the Palestinians. Both of us doesn't want wars ninety percent and I'm saying the last number I've heard I probably even higher of the Palestinian population don't want the government audit tomorrow. You know They don't want to go to war. They don't want to be suicide bombers they don't want that the only thing in this is where I stuck. I feel like I'm I'm now. I have no answers just questions but what they need is that we will help the population to come to rise. But they don't need me to do it and I've tried to explain my baby being the Palestinians. Yes which I said. I'M NOT GONNA say day but it's just going now. I'm going to try to explain what I'm saying. Okay I think that because because because Israel has power as money we like years not really under the threat of you know vanishing from from Earth okay. We're not there for years. We're still telling ourselves we all but we're not there so we have lots of resources that were not using correctly and we should support education in Palestine and we should support You know the the Anything that is not the government that the money will go to the right place. Why should you why should I? Why should Israel do that because we are human beans A. B. Because The history and we can't really go through all of it but the history create us as enemies we never we never were and my dad could tell you you know how many Arabic friends he have. And how when he was in the military on service they were together and there were drinking coffee together in telling stories together in the they were cooking for them and he was cooking for Friends. And then one day around sixty seven. Everything changed Yom Kippur war seventy-three even before that But from forty eight which everyone thinks that is today. You know an everything went wrong now. There are many things that went wrong or that day. But you wasn't yet experiment buying for Alison yet. Ninety four is the day. Were forty eight. Forty eight is the day. Were Israel you know got declared as a country. West yes And you know there is Because I've tried to watch as many things as I can one of the things I've watched it an and I recommend it it's called The gatekeepers now six episodes Hebrew program but there is a net flicks. There was an hour and a half of mix from all of those six episodes. Okay and one of those One of the things that I've heard there is that one Bengali on declared the country In everyone went outside and dancing partying laughing. He stayed in the office. And then gone on your Prime Minister Type Or the first one basically full stop yes and then The account remember exactly who it was and I'm sorry for that but he said to him why don't you go down with them and celebrate and he said because there are celebrating now they will cry tomorrow so he knew that that step of declaring you know. Israel as a country would only start a big war and I can understand and this is where when I'm saying those kind of things to my friends in Israel. I'm I'm the betrayed person I'm suddenly. You know something like that but yes I told you. English is not my strong also because y Hebrew I can understand why they don't like us. I can understand why we don't like them. I can understand a lot of things that before that three years ago I couldn't but at the end you know it's it's very simple. We had We had space to live in peace and suddenly you come back and there were more of them than of the Jewish people on Forty Eight But suddenly you come back and you say yeah we were here like million years ago and now we want that land back and I know that we made them live their houses and I know and you know no one is trying to hide that no one. Because he's there and I've you know it's it's if you google it in Hebrew in English in China no matter what you will find it but it's Y- this thing is out there and and and then the question is can you say it without feeling that you betrayed your country and this is where I think things got wrong gets wrong because I want to be able to say we. Did you know some horrible things and next to it to say yes dated horrible things because this is war and give me one example of a friendly war? There isn't and I don't know why suddenly people expect that the Israel Palestine problem war conflict ever going to call it is going to be different and the only thing when I when I ask people in here white they support Palestine because I ask that in the UK. Yes sorry Sometimes I forget it's not just me and they say because they are the underdog so you have the power you can take care of yourself. Someone needs to take care of them. What they know is they're not helping helping them. What you mean by supporting if you were there just because you want to support the underdog. It's about you son about them but you think that you are doing the right thing so we go in there and give them some blankets. We give them some food. Take pictures of the lovely kids and go back home. You didn't do anything other than getting yourself. Some lovely pictures to instagram or facebook. What can be done though so. If if you ask me what can be done you know and again. This is used question which I ha. I wish I had a better answer for that. But it's not spoiling it's not Putting more oil into the fire indices. What someone who comes to say? I'm pro and no matter what the next one is. I'm pro Israel Pope pro-palestine. It doesn't help be pro peace and against war peace. Don't choose the size because every side can tell you and I started with that every site can tell you why they are right and there is. I walked in Stuart as education on psychologists worked for. Deloitte is a town Seven kilometers from Gaza. And I walked there with children and families And they're not suffering from PTSD because there isn't post in whatever they are going through. It's it's present Drama that keep ongoing and I walked with kids that at the age of thirteen still. What in bed and I walked with parents. That doesn't let their kids to go out to play in the playground and I walked in the most safe town ever because everything is is built with rocks every Bus Station is a safe area from you mean from blast from everything basically. Just stay there. And you're good because you have fifteen seconds which actually thirteen because I've counted You have fifteen seconds from the time you hear the alarm until you have to get yourself a safe place so it's not hard every seven seconds you can find yourself a space a safe space potential. Yes and yet. There isn't even one child there. That has a normal life and I was there during I'm with a which was the first operation between with with Gaza it was on to Nineteen twenty twelve. I think And I was there I was. That was the massive operation huge operation. I remember I was there in. My brother could find that in in in as in Gaza As a soldier and when we talked we could hear the sound of the muscle comes from both sides. And I was there pregnant which I've lost the baby and I don't know if that was the reason because you can really lead a normal life when you're there and I had to lie on the ground every because the way to start. That is the dangerous part. Once you get there. You have some Israel. Yes and it's forty minutes from from the over the center of Israel some forty minutes of please keep me alive and every time you hear the alarm you need to go out of your vehicle and lay down on the ground Reach your head on the ground. Your hands on top of your head was pregnancy when you did Was the first Yes and then just one day no pulse so I don't know maybe it has nothing to do with it but to tell you about the nightmares and everything you know that came with those three years probably has a little bit of affect The second operation which was in two thousand and fourteen I had my second daughter my second child and she was three years three months and I was in Hobart so not start and let it has no safe areas and usually. My husband was at home during the evenings and during the evenings was. Do you usually the massive attacks so every time we we hear the alarm. I know that I go to the baby. And he went to my three years old girl. I was one day when he was He was sent to the army I forgot how we say Miller him. You know because when you finish your military service until the age of forty five you go once a year like reserve yes okay. So he wasn't there and the first time there was alarm in Harvard. I have forty seconds to get to a safe place which I don't have so you choose the corridor which is like the safest the corridor of the apartment. I think I think that's an earthquake. You won't have as much as you want is for trump. Yes yes and I was by myself and I had forty second and I swear in God if he's there for thirty five of them. I'm standing in in the middle of my house thinking would I go to my three months years. You know old baby. Only three years old in which one of them. I'm going to pick up and run to the safe area now. Putting aside the fact that I would probably kill them both if something would happen because I was standing there like shocked I didn't know what to do and I was after three years in the what it wasn't new to me but the first time that I had to choose one keeping you save so things change in suddenly pace is not an option for those forty seconds and then and then you you know you can be smart and and you can be human and you can be a lot of things but when it comes to your life and your children's life there was an enemy and I want him down and at night e a hate. He did not say he didn't past. You will sit there. Nursery which is like ten minutes walk from my house and then God who was the middle of the night so no one was there in the nursery. But there isn't a safe place in that nursery did a target. Yeah do so. I didn't know I don't know. I don't think that you know they have such a clever. Don't know without you this thing I mean but at the end we have books. We have facts. We have the truth but at the end of all of that I have at least seven graves to visit on Memorial Day and I have life that I I'm responsible for so it's easy for me to sit here and say yes. You know we all responsible because we are destroying one and we can help them and it doesn't matter if it's our responsibility or not if we can. We should so what I want to say is. Let's I know we can't but let's put the past behind and the past is my you know my the people that I've lost as well so let's all put the past behind. Think how we can create a better future but then at the end if I have to choose. I don't WanNA choose between my three years old all my three months baby. I rather to choose between me and the other person so you know it's it's not simple. It's not easy and the one thing that I had. The most is when people think they know and when people think they can come and say things about me and about my country about my family and friends that ever since ever since that day all I could think about thank God nothing happened and thank God again. I don't think he's dead but let's say he is. Because I need to be something that I don't have boys. I only have two cars because their chances of staying alive of military service is higher the the the so again about my understanding of the PLO of Palestine is achieve. I said it before. He's the podcast. Maximum of the tree. I've already explained the way we look at these military S- over the kind of Mauritian. What if I definitely think most of us the Israeli Defence Force T shirts? That are pretty cool. I staff America. I used to come out t shirts and badges and stuff just different military forces. My idea I loved them I two of them exactly same. Teasha two different colors love them. I'd have Israel and then I ended up reading Yasser Arafat's book biography flipping things at Dulwich one of the biggest massive buck huge on a rat in my opinion after that was. Oh my God. Israelis are absolute bastards Palestinians. They are being shuttled this nightmare. Then I feel I just read Yasser Arafat's book so I think that because he's book right and then I I made the point. I'm eating something neutral with. Oh I just want to get a better handle. I read a book called. Pass it around a few times recommended. And it's called the pass on Israel conflict. I I can't remember. I co two or three people. One was Jewish. I come back. I'll after this I'll look it up on. It was supposedly objective an objective look at the Palestine Israel conflict on history of it right. That's why my knowledge of okay. What was it back when there was no countries? Nothing while others. Oh yeah so coming. Full right he talking about solution on your forget the past and move forward and I've done a lot of I read. I read those books over long ago. Now eight nine years ago since I read his books. I've kept Strong I on a keen on news whilst gone reading between the lines of News Israelis Palestine during the war we think. Innovate what other countries are doing is really doing what possibly looking at going back. I think to myself I've got. I've got a better understanding this the most because I read up on it which is a fact. Okay I'm going to bet earn. Most Don haven't got the ultimate understanding of it but I've gotta baroness on most people. They look at the news. Listen to the media. There's friends say if the friends talk about that kind of thing and that's what he's the basal. Is there any other research just the way it is? I'm not I'm not slacking. Those people is is a ninety nine million topics. I haven't done the research on holding opinion because news media because the pass on Israel. I think I'm a little bit more understanding of that. I think my opinion of what should what the right course of action is is in line with yours however I think is a course of action that we know particular. My opinion is is that the situation. So Israelis not believe situation policies. Don't blame situation. Israelis who think all Palestinian bosses. We should kill them all. They don't the blame for thinking that likewise think. Oh well okay so now going I most of my friends think like me okay. It's like when I say that. I don't hate the Palestinians here in the UK in London. People like really yes. Like most of the Palestinians doesn't WANNA kill us all and throw us to the C. Okay which is the sentence that everyone said that this is really a matter of economic and power. And I'm going to say something now. That almost cost me my job here but I really think that the Israeli government and the Palestinian one They benefit from that war. It's it's it's all about money and power. I agree I agree can so when when we talk about the issue we can talk about the Israelis or the Palestinians. It's not fair to put us all you know. It's like people think I'm BB. I'm not bb Netanyahu. Which is the the head minister in Israel right now for now? They don't really know what they're doing so once they know. I'm is really. Oh so you're like baby no like really know and I think this is where we think is just opinions but we don't realize the impact of those opinions and every time someone will say something bad. I need to defend because this is the human nature. And then you get into. Those conversations of horrible conversation is in in facebook and the media and straight with the suggestion to the solutions and the opinions. I agree what I what I was coming to is. This is up no no. It's not you know in this formula. Sme I understand your your opinions and your experiences. There fascinates me on very valuable to me for reasons explained Igor books in the media on. Speak to someone who lived at lives it and as it is Israel positing but going about my opinions very much. Samuels US US US situation. You got you got a place that was called. Palestine and a massive. A portion of that was hundred as really's was handed over to Jews Zionists and then became Israel then budget stuff happened and Israelis decided to take a bit more land more on and they were allowed to and they're allowed to buy the West. I lay a huge blame on the situation in Israel and Palestine on the West. I want to say the specify in Europe Britain USA huge blunt you should have been controlled from the top The situation we now is the extremists on both sides on the The third views from outside your extremists other people British Africans French. I have support Palestine. Think well these really should give the land back that they should not and after the nineteen foyer decisions. Yeah order extreme. Extreme issue is really shouldn't be any should be Israeli. Palestine Annette on the other side from the Israeli side is while the Palestinians. They just want to kill it they just want to kill Jews. Kill Israelis I'm talking about extreme issue just should all be Israel in reality? Neither is possible. If you look at what would potentially be the most achievable but not achievable situation. Whereas OKAY ISRAEL. You're given land in ninety four. You're naughty boys between then and nineteen seventy six ninety seven and you took more land than you were allowed even with the UN resolution against us being in sixty saying give that Lombok. You haven't done it even if we go occasionally you give them all. Atlanta took that you shouldn't it can give about the Palestinians not possible because in that land when he's ready to go and their families and communities and towns maybe maybe not land now Israel took afterwards. The no-one said good tick but there are families and their lives. There who had nothing to do with they were born into not situation. You can't rip away from them and then go Yeah Yeah you grew up you for four years old. But bugger off factor. The Israeli behavior ninety four eight. This is now Palestinian. You don't do it. You can't do it in the same way. The settlements in bill on the board and in those no-man's-land and on and on the West Bank all being built the Israelis are being allowed. You built Israel is really government or allow US. Be The family's going okay. We can build it. It'd be settlements by Israelis. These raise a building settlements. They just doing their bit. Just do do in most of the population in Israel doesn't support it. I just want to say the problem is you can't go here. You can't go back okay. You can't hand any of the land back to either party. Okay now undo exactly. Yeah exactly exactly exactly this. That's what you can't you can't change anything. The best thing you can do now moving forward if this is an ideal world and never and held the opinion that you will Michael. You may call your brother and sister. Regardless of way from Ghaziabad remove godless was going to be four garlicy religion. The color of your skin. You may equal okay so longer. That's Palestine this is Israel. What should happen is the only course of action icy to prevent this one hundred more years? Which is what's going to happen. The basketball selection is to go stop so all starts now. This is where we cannot go back for. The reasons explained we kind of go. Back palestine-israel we cannot go back to where we were before it will cause more problems will make it last century's future. This is now going to agree to be friends. You'RE GONNA greet of offensive each other. It's just the way it is. We understand certain things can be put in place to I. DuNNO MAYBE OFFSET LA offset the GDP Palestine of lost land. I don't know but the only thing to do is go. This is where I know. This is going to improve in Fort Yukon Exchanges Lund. You can't exchange communities CON sound people to all of a sudden get kicked out of their homes because they were because it was it was never before they even born My question is who do you say that to both countries who when you say what I make Palestine country who was your who is responsible for making Palestine country and who is to who who's leading that country quarter government an inverted commas percent of them. Don't want them there. It's not a bureaucratic system. They wasn't chosen to lead Palestine. They don't want them there. They don't want who that the Palestinians someone who doesn't want Ashraf they doesn't want what do they want? They want because I because I talked to them. Okay because I because I I see more channels that can tell me what they think and I and it's not easy because in between every two sentences you can hear someone wants me dead but I decided that probably we're doing the same for one side. We are A terrorist and for the other you know is freedom warrior right. It's the famous sentence. It is true that they don't WanNa lose their lives and we don't want to lose hours so when we say that we need we just need to sit down and say say to WHO. And that's why I said what I think we should do is help. The community helped civilians in Palestine. Raise up to develop their own power to decide for their own future. It's not you can talk to my friend. You will tell you that every day she can see at least fifty trucks lorries with blankets. Food would supplies every night from where to from Israel to Gaza who's from Israel sending Israel. No one knows about the Palestinians and she sent me a video because I can you? Please send me that video of trucks. Because she said every time if I'm late for getting out of work don't you know know know if late of going out from work? I'm stuck in the traffic. Because the lowest going. So he's the Israeli government a sending aid humanitarian aid Palestinians day. Why do why because the no? I'm guessing not being forced to anyone else to didn't off their own back. We'll still he's in there. That's a good sign. But that's what I'm saying. We don't WanNA civilians today. We don't want civilians to pay any price but you know what happens. Once it goes by one goes through the barrier and then in Palestine. We don't control weight goes to civilians. Who's controlling the government that we think we need to talk to and you? I went to several meetings with combatants for peace in Israel. And so you could. You could talk to the Palestinians because they come to and there are saying nothing gets nothing arrive into us but use an. How'd you form a just for people who are listening auction when you said government that you talk to? You didn't come because it isn't the government now. I'm DR leaders but it's not it's not a country it's not a government it's people in charge must any country. I think well look the UK. Wait now I see I see. I See. No one knows that. No helping they flip and do no. I did not know that I am not to be honest new. You sent me. I can't see a reason unnecessary. And there's some resolute. Un resolution all GONNA sanctions evolved unless Israel and the Palestinians. That is research. That is really surprised me release. It really surprised me. Maybe I'll be happy with the situation. I hit the Palestinians recovery hit some e is one of the most difficult things assault also one of the most opinion things that people have about not putting in the world. But you know what happens because when I just moved here okay I was. He a few months and there was The news or he's developed in the U satellite weapon. I don't know how to collect. These airplanes without a pilot drove does drawers that I know how to say in Hebrew Drum. That is more accurate so it will hit. Less civilians will be more accurately hit. Would they want them with the one now when I read it? I said I'm proud of my country when someone because before that it was less accurate meaning. We heard more people that we knew. We didn't want to hurt them. All of my friends here that Reddit and facebook was on fire. Look at them. They can't seem to get enough or they wanted to hit more people or the one is more blood. Did we all read the same news? I mean that's the that that chew tools. Information is more is more a symptom of more than move of the way that the way that people From a going with with not willing to look to look at the opposite over the other side of the fence on that weapon system I were in. What was it two thousand and ten? I went to Afghanistan with the military Before we went we on a say we saw the commandos Tucson the company was going we were GONNA be benefit from a a new weapon system an Israeli weapon system and close room brief on a and friends. I say this Kasey we they'd be inaugurated. I won't mention the system. I'm not sure if he's I think he's probably out there in the public domain must be now eight years later nine years ten years later. No anyway this. This system was capable of striking you so from hundreds of kilometers away hundreds of strike. You Kill you and you sat for people listening. Yeah three quotes from me. Seven seventy five centimeters not far. Got The feet on a strike. You wiped off the face of the planet that would come away with. Maybe but everything in use. It was that accurate with that minimum. Cloud damage unbelievable unbelievable Re- regain custody and which is sad. Because I have a million things I want to say. Well you you more. Welcome back on again. Absolutely Has Flown By. Is there anything that you haven't spoken by now that you WanNa get across before we before we finish off this one? How long? How long have you got for you? You bug out of the UK Five months guy on and you know the reason I don't WanNa go back is because my girls doesn't remember that alarms they don't remember the ceremonies talking about heroes. They don't remember. Say you've place but we have friends that just arrived from Israel two and a half months ago before yes and I don't remember how many months before but they just arrived this Bonfire things so it was stober right in in London. Yeah they were afraid to leave the house. I don't want yes I don't want. And they lived in center of Israel. I don't want those kind of memories in my daughter's soul and mind I don't one that in your and your children grow up there. They're gonNA have to do national service right definitely going to feel the war and then participated in some way or another now. I will support them if they would say they don't want to and I will say you can find any way you want to give back to your country because I do believe you should go to hospitals. Go Walk with children. Go walk with disabilities in some go and give back at the age of eighteen. Give at least one year or two from your life to give back because it taught me a lot about my part in this world. But I don't want them to have those memories. I don't want them to jump every time someone you know. Some you know in pub- doesn't hold their gloss like they should and it's break on the floor and I'm jumping. I don't want that so you know I'm quite hopeless honest but but just did not finish with hopeless Approach I really think there is something we can do and I really believe it will start with the simple and small actions. When we arrived we were at the beginning of school. I know we don't have time. I'll do it win it We arrived in. We were on waiting lists for the school that we are now and we went to a different school which was most population were Muslim. And my go when they're and they didn't know at the beginning where we're from and then we had this culture day and we told them and today after does kids was obeyed from playing with my girl. The parents stopped saying hello to me. No swearing God and while they were in school because Kids Children. They are healthy in mind and spirit. They were playing personable but one day left school yard once their parents came to pick them up. They didn't reply to any of our. You know colds and she asked me. Why don't they answer me anymore? And I had to say because people that they like to be more you know they like to go and be with the family. We're not just choice. Where Israelis and I went to Horrible place called gunbattle. Which is like Jim used? Gymboree for children. It's paradise for kids. Hell for parents. Combating gymboree. It's a nightmare and I saw their table of three Muslims women women and I ask them. Can I sit here and talk with you? So my goes will see. It's it's possible personalizing said yes. Thank God they said yes and we sat down and I told them situation and they were shocked because not everyone like this but I get that if we were staying if we stayed at that school how many years good I you know. Color it in different colors. She would understand unfortunately but we have to where we live in. You know as human beings it's It's within his to discriminate Its survival tool to discriminate Does some discrimination essential some discrimination? As we told him we grew up with it is not jeans but it doesn't mean it's right Unless exam it unless an amazing to go and lead by example you know this is this is just because you. Jewish de was limb. Or whatever I think going to sit down and treat people as equals. We are all equals bay so difficult in this day and age so difficult What would you a for? People who haunt is really all Palestinian well understand of experienced but I- exposed to The news updates About Israel Israel situation so your average Joe Bloggs who only listens? All watches us about that situation. What would you see them to try? And what would you? What would you advice? Be To better understand it better on the Sunday situation. Getting more level level approach to the situation talk to us us being as as Israeli Palestinians. Just ask and we will answer and remember that one is you say. I have a side that I support. You think you'd better than them. You think you're kind but you actually say I'm better than you so I can support you because you kind of support if you don't have more than the other side don't support me listen to me. That's all I want to put more hate into this horrible circumstances. Perfect spending pleasure again. If we can get tight thank you very much. Thank you me a fucking I. Jeans Review Yes. Oh unless you're not an eighteen. I I choose user is L. Apple podcasts user. An idiot phone. If you ought idiot phone then please leaving I. If you leave me Niger's view I will stop calling it an idiot phone anyway. That's enough in the android user. Thank you very much for listening another show to our my shadow to my sponsors but heroes rugby heroes. Next Event Eighth and ninth may know next. Get to because all the rest of Arkansas. Eighth Ninth May is V. E. Day weekend the weekend celebrations eleven Tony Ins rugby Football Club albeit at the full size barbarians playing captained by Paul Tug Hotly. 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Unlock the Mysteries of the Arab World

The Tel Aviv Review

39:37 min | 2 years ago

Unlock the Mysteries of the Arab World

"This is is to be one. Vitelle Aviv review. Hello and welcome to the Tel Aviv review. Brought to you by the Van Leer Jerusalem institute, which promotes humanistic democratic and liberal values in the social discourse in Israel. I'm Dalia Shenlin speaking to you from Washington DC, sadly without glad helper in but we'll be back next week. I'm making a special appeal if you like us, please show it we need your support. Please give to our show by going to our homepage. -til v one dot FM slash podcasts slash Tel Aviv review show with hyphens scroll to the bottom and you'll see a big red button. That says patriots click and support us counting on you. In return. Every week. We bring you episodes talking about books and research and other things that have caught our attention. My guest today is should lead to hummy. He is the Anwar Sadat professor for peace and development at the university of Maryland in the past hummy served as a senior advisor to the US department of state advisor to the US mission to United Nations advisor to congressman Lee Hamilton, and as a member of the Iraq study group. He's also a senior fellow in the project on US relations with the Islamic world and other programs at Brookings, and he's the author of numerous books and articles and my personal favorite. He is the author of a dizzying array of polls from the Middle East Israel Palestine in the US, and we'll be talking today. Mostly, but not only about his 2013 book the world through Arabize Arab public opinion and the reshaping of the Middle East published by basic books, and some more recent survey, trends and public opinion trends, and by the time we had that. I think we'll all be experts all completely understand public opinion in the inscrutable Middle East. She'll be Tommy welcome to the show. My pleasure. Tell us about the Arab world, what is the Arab world because you know, as pollsters. We try to think about what the public is. We have a hard enough time figuring out if the public is one organism or not. And you know, you've done pulling in many countries, and you speak about the world. And how do we characterize it? Well, this is really important question as to how to identify a region or particularly diverse. Region. I mean, Morocco is very different from Yemen, very different from Egypt, very different from Syria and still it makes stock of an Arab world as opposed for example to talk about a Muslim world, which doesn't make any sense at all. Because I think there you just combining a huge set of nations numbering about one point two billion, and you just defining them by the fact that they have majority of the population being Muslims, which is really weird if you think about combining Venezuela and Liberia and the United States and France and Russia and calling him a Christian world by virtue having Christian majority populations. Now, that's a good question. So the are still have a lot of differences. And I think we have to recognize that. But the are some commonalities the most important commonality, I think is language and languages extraordinarily important because it means you share literature, you have more interactions. You have you share ideas, you should teaches you sure workers you share comedies you share movies. So anyway, you have a you share a lot more second. It's kind of a context of history as to the emergence of the after the end of the author of empire. What differentiated what we called our world is there was a region. That was our speaking that broke out and had aspirants initially that would collective aspirants. In fact, in some ways, you can get the states weren't imposition, in some cases that didn't make much sense because there were carried out by colonial four. Purses for their own interest. We're gonna talk about and so there was assured shared common interests and third that you now we know that the you have this the aero of transnational media and talking about social media, but della vision radio, and again language is what defines the market, you know, allow be from Saudi Arabia or Jazirah from ATar or any of these TV stations. They don't even catered to their own populations much. They cater to everyone else in our market to three hundred fifty million arbs and finally the the political systems, you have an organization that are bleak and one of the questions, I always ask is. I know you're all these things are mostly Muslim could be cushioned. Obviously in others. You're an Egyptian and Jordanian you'll so the citizen of the world, which one is most important to you today. You also just to think about granting people that all these things were as our. Arab inspector. That's the real big question about into how people define themselves. And when we do find is that although ours is not really at the top of the priorities selection for most people in the countries that we have studied over the past couple of decades. What we do find is that it is still got a significant number of people who say it's either number one or number two significant number. I mean, roughly mature, particularly since tunnel is very interesting because one of the the recent Survey Research by the Arab center, which is from twenty seventeen twenty eighteen found that when they gave people a statement era people's are a single nation. Seventy seven percent in the arrogance of the world, and they studied eleven countries there agreed with it. And only nineteen percent supported the statement that separate that we are separate nations tied by only tenuous links. Does that reinforce the sense that there is a real shared identity? Well to ask it in a different way. Yeah. I mean, you have to ask it melted. Always because this is one that can tell you something about self perception, there's no question that are still think of our business as important to them. Whether it's number one or not they still think it's important to them and are still think that being more unified is better for them than not. I mean, there's no question that whether you Syrian or dania or Saudi think that part of the problem in our world is the odds are not United enough and the division that will is undermining each one of them. Separately might be a wishful thinking. Bit of wishful thinking, how important is state identity. Home point is global identical. A lot of globalist now on our world. Surprisingly, just like we have in the west, particularly in the US among young people who feel their top priority is global citizen of the world of the world and still a minority, but it's advising minority, especially among people. What do you think are the implications of a self perception or or a desire for people to feel themselves era before one of the other identities or to support one unified Arab nation? How is that distinct from saying I feel myself more to be Iraqi or Syrian or something else there several things one is that it's clear that people care about what happens to other Arabs. So I mean think a little bit about the uprisings. Okay. The arm uprisings. They started in Tunisia. But the moved rapidly across the world because the story was an Arab story, and they didn't expand beyond the our world. They didn't do go into other Muslim-majority countries. So much. Remained with him. Are will it was really an Arab story. So you don't. Ukraine from two thousand four wild to get to the Arab world, title, really think that I think I mean, my interpretation of our uprisings is that in the prior years is not that. There was no reason for our s- to revolt. In fact, the biggest question among political sant- is why have an hour's revolted already. We knew we had authoritarian regimes when you people were unhappy. We knew people wanted to see change. So why didn't they revolt before? So that's the big question. What happened in two thousand ten two thousand eleven I think is that. There was the empowerment of the information revolution that took governments by surprise. It happened so rapidly not just in the rise of transnational television. The I have measured in my poll over a decade were in Morocco. You know, nobody watches euro before it was either local television of French and subtly Jazirah becomes number one for news in places like Morocco. So we have we've seen. The impact of transnational media television. And then we had a remarkable rapid rise in the use of the internet and social media, then enabled people to mobilize and get out in the streets without the need for political parties, and without the government's knowing how to deal with it so rapidly it took him by surprise about. So why is it that the close of people are to the source of legitimacy the more they feel like the need to Wien outside of the own boundaries. And it's very simple because anyway, if you define yourself as an hour that means you either speaking for the ABS or what happens to other Arabs matter to a whether or not out ABS approve of what you doing then becomes a source of legitimacy. So if you are a president of Egypt or prison of Tunisia or king of Morocco. If other Arabs think that you're not doing well that undermines sociologist Missy and so you have a stake in what other Arabs thing. Even beyond on boundaries. And therefore, you have even more reason to want to control the narrative of arbs, which is one of the battles that we see now the battle for narrative, but this is a very interesting tension. I mean, when you think about the whole question over Sykes, PICO is whether people in the Arab world really bought into their national identities or not and should it be scrapped. Is it breaking down? And what you're saying. Is that even if it exists, even if it's a political fact people's ideas about themselves stretch far beyond the modern nation states that we see no question in my mind out of speeco in the future. Maybe I want to know. I don't think it's you know, I wouldn't even use the psych speeco agreement as of the bottom line for this. I think we all have fluid identities. Everybody does. And I think that national identity itself is fluid, and I think we all have multiple identities. No, one has a single identity. Not an America not outside. I see. See this fluidity as a function of interaction with others. And it is may give you a couple of examples in a case of the Middle East. If you look at what happened in the years after nine eleven, but especially after the Iraq war when our ABS really saw American farm policy in western farm policy as aimed at weakening Muslim, they saw the war on terrorism as a war on Islam. It led to resign is in his Llamas identity over our by Denny overstate identity for much of that decade in America. We were divided. We had a rising global identity, particularly among young people we've been tracing that for a while now, but after nine eleven what we we were divided country. We the election the produce W Bush to power was a as you know, was a contested issue. George W Bush had less than fifty percent support. And then some. Suddenly nine eleven happens and everybody is first American above everything else because of the threat from outside of the sense of threat to the fear of the threat and everybody clusters. So what we see here is identity is selfish, very fluid, and it shifts in in Israel, by the way. I also do some polling among Jews not just our ABS among Arab citizens and among Israeli Jewish citizens. So what I see among Israel's Jewish citizens is that we have seen a rise in Jewish identity over his Rayleigh identity. Now, some of it. I know, you know, this as well as anyone based on the polling, the excellent pulling I may add that you do on the study that you that you do that part of it is demographic, we know sort of the rise of the hurry deem, and what goes with that story about so the new generation of Israel and the demographics of Israel. But not some not all of it. Because I happen to think that suddenly there's a new narrative, which may be they will never. To stick solution. So either was going to be democratic or Jewish state. And there's this fear that you know, the Jewishness is going to be undermined and therefore people some people are going to rally behind it. So some of that is is really a function of how people assess the future and the relations with other in this case with the Palestinians the Arabs with outside world. So I do think this is dynamic. I think this is true for all of doesn't mean that the other identities. Disappear they stay dormant or they're the they're not top priority. But they're all they're well, this raises one of your very interesting perspectives on the Arab spring to begin with. Which is I think you point out in the book that the rest of the world look at it. As purely an internal dynamic people were sick of their leadership and critical and wanted to rebel. But you say actually they were also reacting to their changing understanding of the world their position in the world and looking outside as well. Can you explain how you see that as not in? Entirely internal conversation. Of course. I mean, I think you know, when you look at the impact of the media what happens there, you're looking at yourself with is someone else it is. You know, it's giving you first of all a window into what else? Other people have it's giving you a window of empowerment particular, social media. The interactive bought of it that you're able to influence in put a tweet and people responding to tweeden people responding you put something on the Facebook, and you're getting thousand and you're not even listen to at home. Not even listen to politically or you go into an office in government, and people are disregarding you. So it's giving you a voice that kind of empowerment comes out of the social media, the identity empowerment, I think is number one is to see the the common knowledge are both through the media. I think just ura. That's why you know, a lot of our governments who are fighting a right now are are fighting because they see his era. As quote, a cause of the about pricings. Well, of course, it was part of a immediate revolution. That influenced. It's not so much zero per se. But as you is certainly big factor while we're talking about I'll Jazirah I mean, you have the whole chapter on deserve. What you call the elephant in the room. And you've mentioned really why it's Okon traverse versale. But what I one of the things that struck me was the accusation that Jazirah is biased and one of the examples that you give is that L el-jazeera one of the first television stations to cover Israel and to cover the Israeli Knesset into cover Arab Knesset members who are critical in the Israeli Knesset, even as they're also showing terrible damage done to Palestinians by the nation. So I guess really leaving aside the question of bias. My question is really was the Arab world struck by watching parliament debate and showing minorities critical of the government debating openly, not to glorify we all know, the problems of in Israeli democracy. But do you think that kind of thing has an impact on Arab say, why are we not? Able to open our mouth and criticize our own governments. Of course, it does. Of course, it does. I mean, it's fascinating. And I think that I just had a lot to do with it and conveying to people in Morocco and in Saudi Arabian and elsewhere in the world, not because they were trying to do good in the world what the their basic logic. And this is what the the information revolution has done. That is the rise of satellite television. The fact that it became so cheap. The fact that people could brought us out of Cottam reach everybody. Who speaks our bec- around the world that idea meant that what you trying to reach is everybody outside you own boundaries. Who speaks Arabic, and therefore what you looking for is that commonality what is it that's going to capture the imagination? It's no longer about trying to control the story. It's no longer about two to have people use the station for loyalty to the ruler. It's about how do I capture audience just for the sake of caps. Touring audience stick it away from someone else who may be critical of you. And at that time, people were fascinated by Israel, people did know allot about Israel. This is the time in the nineteen ninety s when post Oslo accords. There is a peace movement. There's talks and yet Israel was unknown to the Arbel villages, Euro-winter and normalized Israel. They had their own reporters out of Jerusalem. They're broadcasting live out of the Knesset. And yes, the you had all these are members that Necet who would say things about the on the prime minister of Israel, right there under, you know, the picture of Zionist fathers that no one could say that our world against on rulers and knots not certainly one who would go without punishment. And so in that regard. Yes, it did open up a lot. But here's the thing. That's that was not so much function of JIRA. It was a function of zero understanding. Wanted to see that at a time when they thought well, we might have to make peace with Israel as soon as that collapsed in two thousand and then you had the second intifada, and you had the violence, of course, people want to see what's happening to the Palestinians, and they covered that story and the two away all the audiences from JyP Shen television from Saudi television from local television. So anyway, the captured the market, but the captured the market because the end stood what people were looking for at that time, especially when those other television stations as you point out may have had an interest in downplaying shack the damage that was being done to Palestinians. Exactly because they worried that it would play against them that people say warrant you doing something about it. The opposition would use it. And they were frightened by that prospect. I wanna go back to one of the big questions about the Arab spring that you raise very early on. It seems like there was this narrative that prior to the spring public opinion. I didn't really matter that much because these were or Teheran regimes then there was the Arab spring all of a sudden Arab leaders and everybody else had to listen to Arab public opinion. First of all is that narrative, accurate, and Secondly wears it. Now, given what's happened with the Arab spring? Well, she's going to another interesting question I've written about it as well. Which is about sources of legitimacy, you know, of course, the public is in some ways powerless in these regimes have been historically. And in some ways, I understand where people are coming from was when they say public opinion doesn't matter. But here's the thing. So if it doesn't matter why do government space so much lip-service. Do it. Why do they go to such linked to make themselves like issue of Palestine? If it doesn't matter to them. Why do they have to wrap themselves in Palestinian flags every time there's a crisis? So the fact is that governments think that it matters at some point even Nana -sarily because going to leading to revolt, but. The end to stand that that means people awaiting for an opportunity may not be able to do it. But they always are looking behind the shoulders to see if somebody is plotting against them. That's number one public opinion matters more when a country's not democratic because there's not a good nonviolent means of expressing your political frustration. Good point. The question is how they're going to manifest this against the government. Well, they manifested in multiple ways one way, of course, is they make the government's lives horror it costs governments more to maintain public support. When you swing against the current. It's going to be hotter than when you with the cart and that so the governments will spend more of the energies more of the resources trying to keep themselves in power and keep a picture legitimacy second. You have public opinion were always wondered, for example with the US fighting item in in places like Pakistan. So. The overwhelming majority of people in our Muslim world didn't were not members of applied would never join outside. They don't condone what CLYDE doesn't necessarily and just point out that the surveys show. Those numbers are pretty overwhelming very small numbers. We those who don't support. That's right. I mean, we have you know, for example, you know, in in our polling. I had a specific question asking, you know, what what aspect of a high. The do admire most, and, you know, people their method of operation, very few people said the method of operation very few people said, they're Taliban-like worldview more people said because they standing up to America, or they're, you know, they're championing causes that we agree with. But the point is if you dislike the government more than you dislike applied, or if you dislike the US more than you dislike Kaieda, you may not join up high. But you're gonna look the other way you're going gonna look the other way when people are operating in you midst, and that's what happens in may. Many of these countries not that people. Join people do it. They don't like them. But they like anything else they like worse than so they examples they're interesting at the time, you referred to this newly resurgent importance of public opinion as you wrote this, quote, you said you wonder when this awakened giant will find its bearings. What did you mean by finding its bearings? What would that look like to you? It's hard to know we've seen of course, we've seen what happened with Egypt. Great backlash of repression. Is that what you're talking about? Sure we've seen what happened. Elsewhere. I think the, you know, I award understood as I said in my book in two thousand thirteen in the conclusion that dynamic game by which I mean, there is a new public empowerment and our world. And there's no, you know, people are not idiots. You can't keep them in the dark. I mean, an information is available. You can control only that much and people understand what's going on. You should see what's circulating in the social media despite. Fight the efforts of the government how they see the government's jokes cartoons the stories the that they're going everywhere. But at the same time, the governments have recovered from the surprise of two thousand ten two thousand eleven they have a lot of resources and those centers of power don't go away. But we do know, you know, politically beyond public opinion that you have this secular religious divide. You have people who are invested in in the existing power institutions people who are outside of them. You have people who are on the left and people who are on the right? So you have people with varying identity views. Yes. Arab nationalist center, for example, and Muslim national tend to be supportive pasta in question more than status in our world. We see that. I'm one of the other interesting commonalities, I found was that your research. You have a chapter on empathy. And you noted that people who are more. Religiously identified. Or less likely to feel empathy towards the other in this case the other being Rayleigh Jews, which you tested, which is really the river. Exactly, what we see in the Israeli side that people who are more religious tend to be more hard line and have a harder time identifying with the other a really looking at, you know, some problem, you know, the twin people's religious outlook and their ability to empathize with an other beef in their political attitudes. You know, interesting. It's very interesting question. Because I know you studied religion, I have to I'm actually vote studied we both studied religion. I have I am writing a book on they've Anjelica. She's right now. And I'm doing a lot of research on them, including public opinion polls. I've done a major one in two thousand fifteen I'm doing one of just on one now for the book, and it's interesting because you know, when you think of religious people again, you bring out the, shoe empathy. We think about it up in the book bring it back a brought up in the book. And I'm obviously the I find it extremely important. I think that that is a basis for understanding. I certainly try to improvise with people I'm dealing with including people. I don't agree with I try to find common knowledge. Try to put myself into standing I try to get my students to do show empathy, analytical empathy, if not emotional empathy, and in my polls, I actually ask question. I say how important is the golden rule in your life? And I do that in multiple ways. I don't even ask just one question. I asked them to rank it in their priorities. How important is for people do that here in the US? And so we find for example, that overwhelmingly the self perception is that the golden rule is like number one priority for people for majority of people in general, and especially religious people, and like, you know, over eighty percents as either, you know, on a scale of zero to ten it's eight to ten. Ten and over fifty percents Sates ten you know, just the single most important than now. That's incredible. Because that's kind of the way people. See, that's empathy. That's obviously what we think. And yet when you actually look at how the answer specific questions pertaining to conflict like on these Rayleigh stinian issue of for example. How Americans see it you find exactly the opposite. There was a problem people not really wanting to admit how they truly perceive stuff but wanting to tell the pollster. Yes, I do think it's the most important value. Yes. I think it's an issue or we, you know, again, we think of religious people as only religious people, and I think religious people are not just only religious people the political people. Like everybody else. And so for example, most American even Jellicoe tend to be politically conservative and their political conservatism. Trump's what they and they want to what the two together, and they interpret their religious side of identity to coincide with their conservative identity. So they are neither lying nor. Is there methodological problem with polling, but they are expressing competing values in their own minds. And in fact, just to test that we are testing. What would call latency in the poll? How long does it take them to answer the question to see whether or not the hesitating more to see whether or not there's dissonance that comes out of the way, the pollsters, really, you know, riled up exempt. They'd probably don't even know that you're also testing how long it takes them to answer questions as part of their answer. I don't know whether they know or not, but it's anybody I wanna go back a little bit to the for. One more question about an issue that you raised in your book. I mean, there are many, and I wish I could get all of them. But one of them is a chapter you have on the prism of pain. Now, other than just being a great phrase to say you refer to the far bigger symbolic meaning of the Israeli Palestinian conflict than just what's going on politically between Israel and the Palestinians. Can you? Explain why you see that as a such an important framework for the entire Arab world. Sure, I think that you know, if you look at the modern arbitrary really until recently, and I unto at least through their about pricing until now uprisings I think it was the critical issue that defined the position of all Arab elites, but its pan-arab. It's you know, Islamic groups all transnational groups to some extent many of the nationals groups period. And it was you know, because it was the outstanding issue that came out of our best perations after World War Two. And it was not let's not forget, you know, most of the measure r. Wars up until that period were fought between Israel now upstate's, obviously, there was also that you're on Iraq war, which was quite devastating later on. But initially that was the story on I think generation after generation of odds rule up on that. And the story hasn't died because every once in a while a flare up, and it brings people back to this issue. And I think when you look at you know, in the polling just I use that as a test. You know, when you ask people who do you admire most or whom do you dislike most I don't really use that as popularity contest. I just I find. So what's the mindset there? Why are they thinking of people the way they think jock Sharar sometimes that use them has unless rely Shii leader or doin who's a non Arab leader. Hugo Chavez, these people that rise to the top over the years. As most admire leaders now world and all of them are tied to. To the question of pasta because this is a sub-conscious measure people saying do I like the Spurs or not is this person? Good on Israel, Palestine, dispersion, not good on Israel Palestine that used to be part of the measure not for old, but for large number of Arabs as as a shortcut in doesn't mean that people like the Palestinians people like, but they used to that that was sort of a sub-conscious prism through which people made an evaluation thing that you put it in terms of pain. Like, this is something people really feel was humiliating to them personally living, you know, maybe in Morocco, or you know, countries that really don't have direct connection. This is source of humiliation. I mean, look at the social media even now about how humiliating for example, with reports about Israel, normalizing the Gulf states, look at the discourse of the opposition humiliating humiliating is what you hear the word you hear? Yes, I hear that ought. Sure. I mean, this is and people would Email me. Who would you know on some of the social media? It's because they see it as you know, breaking with their sense of self. They should as going against themselves going against who they are. Now, it has changed a little bit. And what what I mean by that number one. It was never true that governments really cared that much. They cared. A little don't get me wrong. They fought over this issue in a yeah. You can call their political maneuvers as political. But look, you know, the still went to war with Israel and forty eight and sixty seven and fifty six of course, that initiate and seventy three and yeah, they were our territories involved as well beyond posting. Territories. But still you know, they cared upto point. But the public was a different story there. So it as the Prisma pain. Now, of course, you have something a little bit different. You have governments who not only don't see it as a priority issue to them. But the don't. Even feel like they have to pay as much lip-service did before. And they are trying to change the narrative that the people have that it central because they think that if they allow that narrative to be sustained it'll come back to haunt them because they want to have relations with Israel. And if the public doesn't like it it will play into the hands of the opposition. So Palestine has become an opposition issue? The question is whether succeeding now, you can argue that the Palestinian question has diminished for the public as well since the album prices for a lot of reasons, there are the priorities. I mean, if you Syrian or if you're Libyan or Yemeni or an Iraqi when you you're so entrapped with your own and from my pulling in the region, I can tell you not for my pulling sorry from our colleague Shikaki polling. We know that Palestinians are highly aware of exactly that they know that they're preoccupied. Sure, the preoccupied this is not a top priority for many of them. But it's a different story to say, it's not a priority. And to say, it's not something important to them. It's a different prior together. It doesn't mean they're like it people say, well, they're not going out on the street. They, you know, the US move embassies Jerusalem. They're not going out in the street. Well, first of all, of course, some did go into the street. You know, it's it's not true. And someplace I was more Tanya of all places in Africa recently, and they had built right in front of the bright in front of the US embassy there in the in the square facing the US embassy, they both emeny awesome. Usc right there. Just to to them erica's to stare at wriggly people do have way of of reflecting. But that is hardly a measure. I mean think about this. You know, we've had a journalist who has not even a dissident opposition who was a loyal opposition mile liquid ical of who ended up being. Killed and cut into pieces. We have people in Egypt and elsewhere in the world who may be unhappy with that or not going all out to demonstrate on it. We have a lot of people in the world who are not going out even over issues like they Khanna meal issues that they're desperate to and that's a reflection of the repressive mood that prevails right now, why would people go it doesn't mean that people have shifted the views on this issue, and even the Saudi government, which has initially signaled. It would put pressure on the Palestinians found itself having to publicly at least dick different posture. Yes, it wants to still are cornet with Israel is not going to stop that. They'll do it as much as they could. But they're not in a position to persuade the public to change the mind on policy. Interesting. We have to end since I want to bring it back to a big broad predictive question, which we pollsters predict of questions, but I will say that the Arab center pulling from two thousand seventeen and eighteen found that over three quarters roughly three quarters of the Arab world, and they serve seven countries. Still think democracy is the best form of government as opposed to other forms attested. And I wanna ask you your research covers dizzying range of the Arab countries Arab citizens of Israel Israeli Jews Americans as far as I'm concerned, that's the whole world. So can you imagine these different size of the world coming to a relationship in the future that is less that appears to be less binary, less oppositional, less hostile less suspicious. Some sort of a convergence values in any way. Of course, when I say that I don't say that. Because of wishful thinking, I I mean, I see the obstacles right now. I don't see it. But one of course, you know, member I keep talking about how attitudes dynamic and they're not stat. So look at the nineteen nineties. I look at the nineteen nine. As an interesting measure because what happened with the after the Oslo agreements. These were not great agreements. I think neither Israel is nor our thought they were good. They were better than alternatives at the time of people wanted to believe that they're going to lead to peace. But even people who could ical of them really thought that this is going to come to an end many of us. I did I thought that this was you know, the this decade nineteen nineties was going to really lead to the end of this conflict. And they wasn't just based on the fact that you had an agreement and I was close to the negotiations. I was supposed to track too. I was off of the effort that preceded osll in a meeting bringing railways and Palestinians together in Rome as a part of an American Academy Watson sciences say this is personally meaningfully for you too. I soon as a Palestinian, well, you know, obviously since I grew up there as well. I care personally I cared deeply. I'm growing up in a in a village near Haifa and having family there. Of course, I care personally. But you know, it's that makes it, of course, something. Partly personal. But it makes you also more informed because I'm you know, growing up knowing both Arabs and Jews speaking both our can Hebrew. And then being in a field where I was studying empathy and studying consolidation clearly was close to home but separate from that. If you look at during that period as an analyst looking at it from an independent, I pride myself of being, you know, a an objective analyst as much as I could be I don't know on his perfectly objective, but I try to detach myself and look at it Al and try to use assets bring to bear as assets from observation if you look at it during that period, I think that, you know, on elliptically looked like, you know, it could lead to something not perfect, but something that would end the conflict, and you could see the how the attitudes change where you when you asked Israel as you want to expel Palestinians own. Only small minority said yes now, you have almost half who support that when you asked Palestinians do support attacks against Israelis only small minority supported at the time. Now, obviously a lot more people support in our boil that was a concept resignation. You could see how people started opening up to Israel with normalizations that we started seeing the multilateral that that came out of it. The fact that I zero started covering Israeli politics broadcasting out of the Knesset when so all of that was happening why because people make an assessment people make an assessment what is the chance of peace and living together. And if they assess that this higher than the other way, they reconcile themselves to it and they prepare themselves for it. And they define themselves in relation to it. If you conclude the opposite than you prepare for the opposite. And you define yourself in relation to the opposite. It's a fluid situation. And that's what leaders have to understand that certainly what peacemakers have to understand. Well, I'm very pleased that when I asked you about your perspective on whether the Arab world and the west can come some sort of a convergence your great example of hope came from Israel and the Palestinian so on that will have to end, that's Chablis hummy. He has been talking about his book the world through our eyes and many other studies and articles he's done. Thank you for being on the show. My pleasure and thanks to gizmos. Demure are sound engineer until he Tisha them our producer unto the Van Leer institute for their generous support. Let me emphasize that we would also be honored to have your support go to our website, scroll down to the patriot button. And join our community. Check out our archive with almost five hundred interviews like us on Facebook. We are called the Tel Aviv review podcast ideas from Israel and follow us on Twitter. Join us again next week for another edition of the Tel Aviv review. And until then good bye.

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Israel created - May 14, 1948

This Day in History Class

08:22 min | 2 years ago

Israel created - May 14, 1948

"Did you ever want to twenty fifth hour in the day? Well, we can't do that. But if you listen to before breakfast host Laura Vander Cam can help you get a little more out of each day Laura's, the author of several time management and productivity books including Juliet school of possibilities off the clock and one hundred sixty hours. These are tips that have worked for her for people. She admires and that she's learned from feedback from listeners like you, Laura has studied thousands of schedules over the last ten years, she loved seeing how people combined rewarding careers with fulfilling personal lives, if you've ever wondered how some people succeed at work while raising happy families, contributing to their communities doing some sort of crazy athletic endeavor on the weekend or all of the above. Then this is the podcast for you. You'll learn things like why tracking your time is a good idea. How to find more time to read how to make better small talk? How to find? Time to exercise in a busy schedule. Why planning your week on Fridays is better how to savor the good moments and how not to be late so wake up with before breakfast every weekday morning just like that first Cup of coffee. It'll help you feel like you can take on the world one productivity tip at a time listening subscribe at apple podcast or an iheartradio app or wherever you listen to podcasts this day in history. Class is a production of I heart radio. Welcome to this day in history class where we bring you a new tidbit from history every day. Today is made fourteenth twenty nineteen. The day was may fourteenth nineteen forty eight in Tel Aviv. David, Ben Gurion. The chairman of the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the state of Israel from the early sixteenth century to nineteen seventeen the Ottomans ruled the Palestine region, but in nineteen seventeen British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Balfour issued a statement of British support for the establishment of a national home in Palestine for Jewish people that statement became known as the Balfour declaration, the British government had hoped that it would get Jewish opinion on the side of the allies during World War One. It was also a play to protect the Suez canal Egypt and ensure a good communication channel two British possessions in India when the first World War ended in nineteen eighteen written seized control of the Palestine region or modern day Israel Palestine. Fine and Jordan, even though AARP states protested the Balfour declaration concerned subject era Palestinians persecution. It was included in the British mandate for Palestine the league of nations an international organization founded in nineteen twenty to resolve international disputes, formerly authorized a mandate onto light twenty-fourth nineteen twenty two the mandate went into effect in nineteen twenty three and British rule. Continued through the next two decades as Zionism a movement for the reestablishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine emerged thousands of Jewish people. Relocate it to the region in the late nineteenth and early twentieth. Centuries and after World War Two broke out in nineteen thirty nine Jewish people fleeing persecution and immigrated to Palestine taking up the cause of Zionism tensions between Arabs and Jewish people in Palestine intensified Britain, which in nineteen thirty nine had recommend. Added an end to Jewish immigration by nineteen forty four faced opposition from Zionists. The US supported the foul for declaration and the Zionist cause of the reestablishment of Jewish nation and Palestine, but in nineteen forty five at the end of World War, Two president Franklin D Roosevelt promised not to intervene without consulting Jewish people in Arab 's the British were against the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state and Palestine, and they opposed the unlimited immigration of Jewish refugees to the area. Britain was concerned with maintaining good standing with the air ABS to ensure its political and economic interests were not disturbed after US president Harry Truman took office. He announced his support for the creation of a Jewish state. And in November nineteen forty seven. The United Nations voted to partition Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state resolution one eighty one or the partition resolution called for the creation of the states. When Britain's Palestinian mandate was scheduled to end in may nineteen forty eight. Under the resolution the areas surrounding Jerusalem would be a corpus separate them or region granted a special legal and political status, but it's not sovereign under international control administered by the UN Jewish. People would get more than half of Palestine, even though they made up less than half of the region's population. Jewish leaders accepted the plan, but Arabs rejected Palestinian Arabs argued that they should be given more territory and began forming. Volunteer armies despite the objection Britain withdrew from Palestine and may nineteen forty eight in Israel became an independent state on the fourteenth of them up. The next day the Arab nations of Egypt Syria, Lebanon Transjordan, which is now Jordan and Iraq invaded the region the Arab Israeli war broke out and lasted until March of nineteen forty nine. When a ceasefire agreement was reaped many conflicts. Have ensued between Jewish people in Arabs over the decades since the creation of Israel, including the Suez crisis six day war Yom, Kippur war and the Lebanon war. Key areas like the West Bank Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip into Roussel lem have been centers of dispute in nineteen sixty four the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed to unite Palestinian groups and create a liberated Palestine the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Persists though, there have been peace treaties between Israel and both Egypt and Jordan Israel does not recognize Palestine as a state though, more than one hundred UN member nations do a two state solution or the stablishment of Israel for Jewish people in Palestine for Palestinian people has been proposed. But such a framework has proved challenging to achieve in the struggle with reaching a two-state solution. A one state solution emerged where Israel the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip would be merged into one democratic country in another version of the one state solution Israel annexes, the West Bank would not the Gaza Strip and remains a Jewish state. With the larger Arab minority over the years. People have attempted to work on peaceful solutions that would end the years long conflict. I'm Steph coat, and hopefully, you know, a little more about history today than you did yesterday. If you haven't gotten your fill of history after listening to today's episode, you can follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook at T D, I h fee podcast. Tune in tomorrow for another day in history. For more podcasts from iheartradio. Visit the iheartradio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Have you ever wondered, how do the smartest marketers cut through the noise? I'm Bob hitmen chairman and CEO of iheartmedia and on my new show math and magic I'm sitting down with the day's most gifted disrupters, but when I did this people thought, I was crazy. There are really no other rules aside from, you know, no, full frontal nudity, go out there and do it. I don't like to follow the trend of. Listen it subscribed to math and magic on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you get your podcast.

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April 27, 2019 | Interview: Dr. Randall Price

The Friends of Israel Today

24:58 min | 2 years ago

April 27, 2019 | Interview: Dr. Randall Price

"Before we begin today. Our beloved friend teacher theologian and author. Dr Reynolds showers went home to be with the Lord earlier this month. I know I speak for anyone that has been blessed to know Rennie when I say, his teaching has had a direct lifelong influence on our understanding of God and his promises to Israel. Dr Ronald showers was a gifted yet. Humble man that loved learning and teaching about the God he loved we ask that you keep his family in your prayers at this time. Talk about the land of Israel often on the program, but on the evening news or in the newspapers, maybe even in your church. You might hear the same land called Palestine where does that word come from? And doesn't matter which were we use Israel Palestine, this is the friends of Israel today. I'm Steve Khan over and I'm Chris can talk today. We went to bring some clarity to the term Palestine, it's such a sensitive term. It's political. It's theological. It's emotional to bring some clarity to the word. I'm excited to have Dr Randall price on the program. He's the founder and president of world of the bible ministries. He's also a distinguished professor at liberty university and famed archaeologist Chris we look forward to that conversation in the news last week Israeli nonprofit space L achieve the first moon orbit with privately funded spacecraft. But unfortunately, an engine problem dashed its hopes of safely landing the Lander on the moon. The crash didn't end Israel's hopes space. I l announced the plans for a bear sheet. To mission with a statement for Morris. Con the Israeli entrepreneur who put millions toward financing the first Lander, you know, I watched the live feed of them trying to put the Lander on the moon. And it's was quite something to see. And it was amazing when when they realize they lost the lunar Lander when they lost it. They weren't dashed. They weren't done. You could sense. This is only the beginning. And really, I think this space mission defines, the Israeli spirit, and mindset altogether, Israel doesn't shy away from obstacles. Instead, they're known for taking obstacles like this moon landing situation as opportunities to grow and to get better. You know, Israel might not have landed on the moon or just not the way they thought they would get to the moon. But I'm confident we will see them on the moon soon. Recently. I was reading through a commentary on the bible, a well respected commentary one I would recommend to anyone and as I was reading through the commentary to prepare for a message. I noticed that the writer chose to call the place where Jesus lived first century Palestine. Now, I know that scholars often use the title Palestine to label Israel in commentaries. But I was surprised it was used by a commentary that I thought was well respected. And that's why I wanted to dedicate this episode to bring some clarity to this word Palestine, I think it's important to bring clarity to the word. And really there's no better person to have on the program to bring clarity to this word Palestine, then Dr Randall price, welcome to the program, Dr price. Thank you for taking the time to be with us here. Dr price before we get into the nitty gritty of this word, can you? I give us an idea of. The history of this word Palestine, well that is going to be somewhat. Controversial, no, it really knows the exact origin. It's not used to Bible's not used in the Koran. This is a term that developed in history and has a long develop. But I would say that they're two theories one is just the use of the term when you hear the word Palestine, it sounds a great deal like term still steam, and that's because one of the terms fifteen and Hebrew in Greek Palestine, the same term is is there. So that was used from ancient times in translations of the bible or in. Let's say ancient references to the land of Felicita or the philistine people. It didn't necessarily have reference to the land of Israel, but bike stench. May have come there. The the gyp shins, we know probably back sometime before Herodotus fifth century BC. We're using this term to refer to the land to the the northeast of them, which would have been the philistine territory and Herodotus the ancient father history so called in the fifth century BC refers to this area. Now, we call Israel as Palestine. But when he refers to inhabitants of the lamb he refers to his circumcised, which is not that would be true for the Philistines, which were not a semitic people, but a seat people came from the area of creed or the ancient Greece somewhere like that. There's a mother theory that is that the Greeks used they like word plays. And there was the word that is pound. Deny. It's a term that. Kind of cell. It's based on a term that means to wrestle or to contend with something like this. And it it was drawn from the idea that the Jews were called God wrestlers back from the time when Israel gets its name from Jacob who wrestled with God who was in pre and at four, and so the the idea could be this that it was simply term to to refer to the ancient Hebrews and the land of Israel by this Greek term, which was a word play. We so we don't really know we know that the term took on a secular meaning with it was later in history used to in a punitive way to defined the Jews by Ibrahim drian. And so we're round the one thirty something based AD now the. Jews have revolted against the Romans for a second time. And this was put down by Hadrian as a result. He renames Roussel Avia capital Lena after his own family alien than after the Capitoline hills of row, so that was to to change the name and association with the Jewish people in Jerusalem. And then he he named the whole country Palestine Abe, which is he thought that has me Romans dead is simply lower Syria are are lesser serious like this, but referred to it by the term used for the enemies of Israel and order to defame them, but to separate them from their own history and that kind of pick because he was a Roman emperor. It comes into Roman sources, and we find it as a secular term used in distinction to something like, our it's surreal. The the Hebrew. Term used by the Jewish. People are terraced sancta the Latin term used by Christian people. So when I opened up this book, Dr price, this commentary, and it was talking about Israel, but labels it as Palestine during the time of Jesus are these scholars are they being historically accurate when when they used the term that way. No, not at all. It's it's a it's a misnomer and my own study bible. But I use has our maps in the back of Palestine in the time of Jesus or two h of Palestine at times of the mother and the. This is simply because it's become more generic commenter, many people think it's a shall we say a political term they can use that not refer to the issue of the Arabs would have or the Jews would have over the land. But of course, that's all change to it's very much political term and a theological term today. If people are using that term though in books, Dr price is there ever a good time for them to use the term an accurate time for them to use the term Palestine when they're talking about the history of the land. Never because frankly, would you come to the bible. It's never used. You'll find it in the King James version in Joel three four. But there it refers simply to the coastal plate or Felicita. It's never used of people are place of that. When you come to the new test. But I mean, of course in the test. It's referred to as the land of Israel strictly that when you come to the New Testament, you find the same thing, you find it referred to for instance, the gospels you come to Matthew chapter to getting Matthew chapter ten we have references to Jesus, and it has parents leaving the land of Israel to go into the land of Egypt when they come back. It's from the land of Egypt to the land of Israel. It's never referred to as anything else. Again. Also in in the Koran we talk about his lobby sources. They don't refer to it is anything other than the land of the Jews. They don't refer to it as Palestine at all saying the term Palestine and Palestinian, you know, we we've been talking about it from a theological perspective from a historical perspective. But really this word is kind of developed over the years through thousands of years of history. Especially coming up recently. I it has come to identify. Modern people come to identify a potential future state that some people think Palestinian state Palestinian people. How did this happen? How did this term work its way through all the years to all of a sudden come to define a group of people or a specific location? I think you'll probably find this coming out of British mandate in in Israel. What happened was they they use the Roman term, which they thought at that time was a turn that was inclusive of the land itself. So while properly Palestine referred to the land of the Jewish people the land of Israel, it then came to refer to all the inhabitants of the land. So under British mandate, it's referred to for we talk about Palestinian Jews. We talk about Palestinian Arabs. We have the Palestine post which was today is day. Become they drizzle post. We had the Palestine fella Matic orchestra which is Dave Israel philosophic orchestra simply referred to Jews living there the air ab-, then were also Palestinian Palestinian Arabs. But win the partition happened in nineteen forty eight. Eight and the Jewish people got a state within that area. They became as Rayleigh Jews all the Arabs lived with state became Isreaeli. Arabs, everyone outside that. We're simply left with their own distinction. Even then they didn't take the term Palestinian. They took either a tribal it invocations just bedouin or they took some national distinctions is Jordanian or Syrian or Turkey or Egyptian whatever it might be probably the first time we see this term appear in distinction is with the Palestine Liberation Organization, which comes around nineteen sixty four. But then you realize they use the term Palestine not of themselves not of an Arab entity. But of what they considered occupied area and they referred to Palestine Israel because this was the lamb. And they wanted to liberate at that time things like the Gaza Strip belong to Egypt the West Bank belong to Jordan and the Golan Heights belong to Syria. So they didn't have reference to those areas. And when we come to something like the the six day war, even the young kipper war. You will not find the word Palestinian or Palestine used in those documents, you wouldn't even limit resolution two four two and three three eight from the UN Security Council, which dealt with the resolutions of these wars. And the issue was because they were not dealing with Palestinian claims. These were the countries of Egypt, Jordan and Syria, again who are seeking to reclaim the areas that the Israelis at taken. Which were of course from ancient days part of today and Samaria then when you come probably is late as nineteen ninety three. I would say you have something where because of conditions that are happening. Just before the Camp, David peace accord, just at the same time that Jordan is there's a cold peace may, Jordan treaties. There's a distinction of people that consider themselves marginalized they all before that Jordan called itself. Palestine it affect Yasser Arafat in nineteen seventy what be called Black September tried to conquer Jordan, which he was said he was conquering Palestine King Hussein referred to Jordan this Palestine. But this is this is all since change for political reasons. Now, we have revisionist. History says Jews didn't come into the country till the eighteen eighties that there was never a Jewish history there that the bible is a fraudulent document that and basically countries like Jordan have lit their support to that up until nineteen ninety four little beyond. They were the custodians of the Temple Mount Jerusalem. Now, they have backed off and let the Palestinians take some of that we're gonna come back from a break. And I'm going to ask Dr price the story of what arkie Alaji is playing and really helping define what the land of Israel should be called. So be sure to stick around. It's hard to believe this month, April the friends of Israel celebrates having been on air since nineteen Ninety-one. And Chris you've been our host now for the last four years in this short time, a reach has grown to more than five hundred stations as well as growing podcast audience reaching places like Israel, Guam, India and the Faroe Islands. Steve we believe that this program is so unique because it highlights the fact that God still loves Israel, and the Jewish people that Israel, and the Jewish people still matter because God's word says, they do the reason we're passionate about this program is because there are really no other programs that are doing exactly what we're doing. But friends, I had to be honest. This program is dependent on your faithful giving the point we want to make the point we need to make is we cannot continue this program without your help. We are faith based ministry, depending on support faithful listeners just like you when you give. Of twenty five dollars or more to the program. You'll receive Dr Ellwood mcquaid updated and expanded book. It is no dream Chris given the purpose of the friends of Israel today radio program. Can you tell her listeners why this book matters to our ministry, and how will influence the lives of our listeners? You know, I really hope that our listeners out there are like us, and I'm sure they are they love Israel. They love the Jewish people. I think that's the reason a lot of our listeners are attracted to the friends of Israel today. And I can think of no other book that would be better for our listeners to have in their hands as a gift for donating to our ministry than Dr Ellwood mcquaid's. It is no dream. This is really an entire picture of Israel from beginning to end, a biblical look a prophetic, look and also what's going on today in modern Israel. How did Israel come to be? And the updated version Steve is just phenomenal the picture quality, the paper quality all of it from beginning to end. It's a beautiful gift. I think our friends will really like. For your gift of twenty five dollars or more. You will receive the book it is no dream. You can contact us at eight hundred three four five eight four six one Monday through Friday, a thirty AM to five PM eastern standard time again that's eight hundred three four five eight four six one Monday through Friday. Eight thirty AM to five PM eastern standard time, you can also give at FOIA radio dot org. That's F O eill radio dot ORG. When you call mention the promo code dream. The promo code is dream. Welcome back everyone. We are speaking with Dr Randall price, Dr price I'm wondering with all of your expertise over the years and years and years that you've been doing archaeology in Israel, how how has archaeology defined what the land of Israel should be call. You were talking about earlier in the previous segment about the idea of revisionist history. How is archaeology helping us understand more of what the land of Israel should be called? Archaeologist become a tool used by Palestinian Israelis to make some type of facts on the ground right now, we have the Palestinian Authority demanding all of the fines in the West Bank. Be. They were made Archaelogy would be returned including the Dead Sea scrolls. Which is off because the Desi scrolls were excavated originally under the Jordanian government when they had control of that area and the rest of the Dead Sea scrolls aren't in Israel, orange Orden. But the Palestinians are trying to create a history for themselves of Atlanta. So they said these are all Palestinian artifacts. When we talk about issue of Jerusalem, they claimed that no archeological discovery. Jerusalem has verified any Jewish claim to one stone in that country. It's just wishful thinking when you talk to real scholars of the Palestinians, and they have their own Palestinians to archaeology there's university in the West Bank had a department antiquities in Gaza. So they know better, but they have to hold a political. The fact is though when we excavate and I've been excavating in the West Bank or twenty. Eighteen years at the site of coumarin where the disease originated, and I remember a number of years ago, a student from Berkeley cave. He was doing an interview for imag Zine lanting monthly on this. And he came asking where are the Palestine artifacts that I was digging up, and I had to say, well there are none. We have things for the Roman period. We have things from the period before that the second temple period, which is entirely Jewish. Every one of these things relate to Jewish culture Jewish religion. We have bones. We find among things that are with butchering Mark show. They considered kosher laws. We have things related to Jewish ritual which is involved here. We have Hebrew inscriptions. But we have nothing related to the other people. And so that, you know, and that's the case across the country. You have very clear defined strata. Which have occupational levels and show the people that live there, but there are no Palestinians because this is a recent invention, politically while essay, the term has been used a long-time secular. It a secular way to distinguish it from biblical Jewish or Christian terms. It's it just has no real currency in terms of history. In fact, so archaeology can be used to is trying to be used by some to disprove claims of Israel. But the actual archaeologist self affirms simply says, they're the people here, Dr price. I really appreciate you spending time to come and to share with us from your expertise, your knowledge, you are a gift to us in many ways here at friends of Israel. Can you let our listeners know how they get in contact with your ministry world of the bible ministries. Sure, I just in closing what to say one thing there is a. Palestinian people today and the Palestinian entity. It's recent it's has oh connects with pass history that we shouldn't we should not refer to Palestinian people Palestinians or Palestinian Christians or things like this, even though they don't have an origin that they claim no ministry is called world of the bible ministries. It's world of the bible dot com. Located down in Texas, but we have on our website all of the information and data that can be downloaded try to educate through that website as well as provide resources for further study. And then our tourist Israel, many of the things that's fantastic, Dr price thank you for clarifying. The term Palestine the history of the term Palestine, we know that there's a lot of levels. There's the emotional level. There's the political level. There's the CEA logical level all of these levels. And I love how at the very end, you boiled, it down that there are a Palestinian people. God values them. That's the most important thing as well. That God values them. Thank you for a mining of that Dr price and also reminding us that the history points to the fact that the land of Israel is Jewish land. There was a Jewish history there. Thank you for joining us, sir. Thanks for joining us today. Chris wouldn't informative discussion between you and Dr price. What would be the big takeaway from what we learned about the word Palestine. I think the big takeaway is understanding that. Yes, it is a very sensitive term. But we also have to understand history and theology we have to know when to use the right term. We have to know that we shouldn't just be calling Israel Palestine because really that carries a lot of connotation of with it. So I think we need to be careful at terms we use. But also understand a lot of the sensitivities as well. And for our listeners. I just wanna say if these things matter to you, if issues of Israel and the Palestinian issue matter to you truth, really matters. I want to encourage you again, please donate to our radio program the friends of Israel today. And just remember for right now, we have a special promo going right now if you give a gift of twenty five dollars or more to the program you'll receive Dr Ellwood mcquaid updated and expanded book it is. No dream. You can contact us at one eight hundred three four five eight four six one. That's one eight hundred three four five eight four six one during business hours, Monday through Friday eastern standard time, and you can also donate at FOIA radio dot ORG. Don't forget to mention promo code dream. Chris ca- Tokyo is our hosting teacher. Tom gallium produced today's program. It was co written by Sarah fern, Jeremy strong composed. Our theme, I'm Steve Khan over executive producer, the friends of Israel today is production of the friends of Israel gospel ministry. We are worldwide Christian ministry, communicating biblical truth about Israel, and the messiah while fostering solidarity with Jewish people.

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Tough Love or Tough Luck? EU and the Middle East Peace Process

The Tel Aviv Review

42:36 min | 1 year ago

Tough Love or Tough Luck? EU and the Middle East Peace Process

"This is is one. The Tel Aviv review. Welcome to the Tel Aviv. Review brought to you by Van Leer Jerusalem institute I'm your host can help it and I'm your co hostess Dalian Shenlin. If you're like US please consider becoming a patron supporter by goingto homepage. That's still v. One dot have him smash Tel Aviv? Review Scroll down to the bottom and Click. This big Red Button says patron and we're counting on you. Every week we bring you interviews with authors of books research or other things that have found interesting. This episode is sponsored by the German government. Germany will be holding the EU presidency in the second half of twenty twenty and with the generous support. The Tel Aviv review will be holding a series examining Israel's relationship with the EU and European countries. And to do that we have hugh of it on our show today. He's a policy fellow with the Middle East and North Africa program at the European Council on Foreign Relations where he focuses on EU policy towards the Middle East peace process domestic Palestinian politics and Israeli regional policy. Hugh worked as a researcher for the International Crisis Group and as a shuman fellow in the European Parliament focusing on Middle East policy he holds an M A in Near and Middle Eastern studies at the London School of Oriental and African Studies. He's the chairman of the brussels-based European Middle East project. In other words. He couldn't be better place to answer our questions. Because he's written extensively the far specifically about how European countries can strengthen the peace process the issue differentiation. He's conducted research on all these topics including a two thousand sixteen report will be discussing today called EU differentiation and the push for peace in Israel Palestine. Hugh welcome to the show. Hi thanks for having me sure. Let's start with a broad. Everything is a metaphor these days. We're GONNA take the temperature of EU Israel relations if you had to characterize how the EU feels right now about the Middle East peace process. You can speak on behalf of Brussels individual governments policy people. What's the one word you think? Best describes the temperature of those relations at the present warmer. That's okay you can use a few I would say probably lost all this orientated. That's only succeeded. A fuss patient lost disoriented and frustration. Great explain please. So in terms of being lost and disoriented you know. I think it's very clear to both the critics and supporters of the EU. That is that sweated itself to this so-called two-state solution now this is being the central pillar of you policy towards the Israeli Palestinian peace conflict. years I'd say Am I think you know? At the same time A lot of the analysts including myself and others are increasingly increasingly concerned. That this two state solution is either sleeping or hasslet beyond grasp. And you know this. This new reality That I pushed me. Emerging won't quote a one St Reality you know. Obviously that poses We'll challenges to Israelis and Palestinians but it also poses a real challenge to the EU. And and I think it's lost at the moment because you know the current organizing paradigm the current to State Paradigm debts Being the main source of you policy towards the conflict is now disappearing but so far the EU has not yet been able to To come up with a new set of policies that can better Relate to the current Reality so that's kind of lost and disorientated but the two sides religion has been the consensus pretty much internationally northwest among EU member states but also other international players do you think that the EU is more affected by this disorientation and frustration than other international players to a certain extent so clearly the EU has become the unenforced of status quo. You know not one could argue at. The status quo has ever existed or not. But certainly you know it's a lot of his policies have been geared towards propping up The also also configured Middle East peace process and the two state solution So that would be. I'd say the first thing I'd say secondly in of all the actors currently both local and internationally I would personally this provocative I personally say besides the PA pillow I would say is the EU that is the most ardent and the truest believer in the two state solution. You know if you look at the American Administration at the moment clearly Somewhere else am I think if you look at other international actors you know. This is not to deny their own sense. You know the maps urgency or the hell genuine. They all want the conflict but I think certainly the Tuesday solutions. That's prominent in the low informed policies whether we don't get China Russia not to mention Israel's government such as it is yeah and the Israeli government Is somewhere else we can talk about that So I figured I think for the EU. The two state solution is something that it holds really ready to halt and it has invested a lot of political and financial capital so in that regard. Yeah I think it. It will be one of the most affected actors into certain extent. I just want to ask you I. There's a quote that you had from your report back in two thousand sixteen which is four years ago and it was among you wrote. Among many European policymakers the belief still persists that the Middle East peace process in its current. Oslo configuration offers the path to resolving the conflict failing that they believe the peace process still represents an effective tool for managing the conflict provided both sides be coaxed back into talks in light of what you just said. Do you think that the EU policymakers still truly believe that or are they kind of continue going at it continuing at it out of a sort of inertia precisely because they've invested so much in it that they can't drop it now So it's been a few years since that report. I think clearly in private and now an increasing number of European officials Aw both you know in the EU and member states acknowledging that the also framework book down and some would also acknowledged that two states is not possible. But I think it's still lead going from that to saying that publicly because if you say that publicly than you admit that your current policy is no longer effective because you're dealing with another reality and therefore you need to put in place a new set of policies to to to deal with that new posts to state reality And that's that's to be difficult for any actor. is complex situation which will moving into up but for the EU. There's an added a complication. Which is it has to manage his own internal divisions but it seems to me like that haven't been balking up three incessantly with different degrees of a enthusiasm Because the differentiation policy. That you describe in your work is a way of. Maybe taking a more proactive approach tools that impact. And then he give a little background for that for that comment You wrote and you did not mince words that you thought the EU should be less passive and more Take more initiative on this. And that's how we get to the differentiation policy. The differentiation policy. Which will ask you to explain in. The second is a way of. Maybe taking a more proactive and less passive. So we both ask the question. Did you get over to you? Yes So so again. I always have to caveat this. I mean what I'm GonNa say is obviously if we we still believe in a reality in which two states can still be achieved. Maybe it's not currently achievable but that's still remains a distant prospect And I think you know if if we're talking about reality than than certainly mile Would be that you know at that. There is currently a massive gap between rhetoric and actions and so in terms of rhetoric. I think the US being very good in terms of its policies on paper a very little to faulted with in that regard rhetoric has been good. Sorry just spell that out for our listeners. You mean the rhetoric has been very good in terms of in terms of in terms of its positions towards the two state solution terms of how it envisages A The final status promises. How envisages The resolution of the conflict its adherents on paper international law. These sorts of things You know I think that that's great You know it. Support for Palestinian self-determination equal rights increasingly. Which isn't budging in some of. Its statements. But what I'm saying is the gap is that it has Over the years being very reluctant to translate those positions on paper into actually into actual concrete actions so you know you so the EU. I mean this is going on a slight tangent but you know the EU has invested millions. off euros into Palestinian state building and won't could say that's been effective in terms of you know having the IMF and the World Dyke and others Dick Saving Palestine Palestinian institutions to be stakes would ready this was years ago that we had those declarations but then you always shied away from making the next logical step which would be to recognize. Palestine you know. That's one example. Another one is being very critical of the settlements. But to the same it has done little concrete blay To to manifest the opposition so many member states continued to oppose very lukewarm towards the UN database of businesses with links to Israeli settlements at the same time While the EU has made a clear progress in this idea of differentiating between Israel settlements at the level of its bilateral relations. Member states have been a very fall behind the curve in that regard and often quite reluctant to formally execute the settlements from their relations or go out of their way to try not to be in a position where they have to do that so I think you know this is kind of what I'm saying. Is You know you have positions paper that to me? You know when it comes to the dismantlement the two state solution I think a perfectly good That the EU has not really been as China. Wait and been very reluctant to actually doing anything that can lock in those positions. What would those things be Law So it depends as I said if one looks at at the settlements And one takes the position. That settlements are major obstacle to achieving a two-state solution of course not the only one bill manifest manifesto all a critical issue. I think the question is what. What should you be doing to actually To actually more concretely opposed settlements and to actually also highlight to Israelis at the Septimus Issue not just in terms of preventing two state solution but also harming Israel's relations with the outside world and so you know and that's going back to this idea of differentiation that the the US misdeeds have a at ut in terms of international law the domestic positions and also foreign policy positions to exclude those settlements from the batch relations with Israel to make sure that they relations with Israel stop at the nineteen sixty seven green line. Okay so that's your basic way of saying. Okay here's how to close the gap between the rhetoric that is in the right direction and the policy which hasn't really kept up. You're kind of saying differentiation. Is the way to make to bridge that gap and make the policy concrete correct exact exactly and let's be fair. It's not a silver bullet and it's not the only thing that should be done but I think if you're looking at Puglia policy tool settlements than that would seem to be A natural conclusion to tell us some of the forms of the takes boycott. You know I'm just trying to ask you the kinds of questions that you know the that Israeli society has on their mind when they hear about this sanctions rather than boycott sanctions. Boycott what is it? Yeah so certainly. You know we've seen a lot of What I would call Disinformation misinformation from Israeli government and supporters. The settlements that have labeled this differentiation as as a variety of things from being anti Semitic akin to economic terrorism to be d. s. and other things There's always a lot to unpack but I think the starting point is to acknowledge that would the EU is doing. This is very much a what I would call the interstate level so the at the level of state to state EU to Israel level relations And it's premised on sort of legal necessity You know by virtue of the US own rules and regulations domestic positions also international law which sort of requires the non-recognition of Israeli settlements and prohibit stood states from facilitating unlawful actions such as the settlements new based on these legal considerations Third States in this case the EU and you member states have an obligation to ensure that they relations with Israel which That these relations exclude the settlements And we've seen and sometimes this actually requires Israel to to accommodate these legal requirements. And so in some instances we have seen Israeli government's Accommodate these positions enforcing the loan sort of internal differentiation in sectors to poultry and dairy products. And and even research innovation. Does that manifest itself? How do those examples play out when you say in Poultry and innovation? We're in show us the examples where Israel itself yeah abides by differentiation so this becomes a very geeky thing and so Make Kiki I cook a chicken and a great recipe. Just kidding. I think it's important understand. Because we have the impression that Israel completely rejects. This idea of differentiation. So so something like with With poultry for example Basically requires Israel to set up two different production lines And then to ensure that a poultry chickens that are written in settlements. Stay within Israel. Don't make don't make their way to EU markets and that You know Poultry products that come from within what we recognized. As as Israel within the sixty seven borders those products are most welcome in the EU. So that's kind of a very sort of technical manifestation but such Israel actually does that already. Yeah so in other words. Israel's doubling its work creating a big bureaucratic headache for itself and not even making it. Very public Yeah because also I think the issue poultry products is not perhaps the most sexy issue and also You know a lot something you wanna tell us it impacts only a small sector of Israeli Israel's economy however I think something where there has been much more of a notice that everyone always talks about this The quite rightly is the issue of the horizon. Twenty twenty surprising twenty twenty s e you research and Development Innovation Project and And so what we saw was when this project was launched the EU put-down clear a funding guidelines and one of these funding guidelines said that That only Israeli entities within the nineteen sixty seven borders would be eligible To access a project in the associated funding now. Initially the Israeli government refused that because it would not fall on ideological grounds differentiate between entities in Israel those in the settlements And it risked losing out on this project for the sake of ideology But then what we saw in response is a lot of the academic institutions research institutions in Israel Pressuring the Israeli government to acquiesce to the US. Conditions and ultimately the Israeli government did and so. I think the border you know I do. Is Dad that the that that if you hold to its legally necessitated line it forces these ray governmental Israeli authorities to have to choose between the ideological support for the settlements all they extended relations with the EU and it basically on the schools that you can't be expanding Project you doesn't recognize while at the same time deepening our relations with the EU. But but hugh the the question is how gravely the related external relations with the EU and POPs other countries and international concessions have been affected because at the end of the day. As you said you know Israel is doubling up a lot of work and you know bending over backwards to make it work but if you look at the A broader scheme of things the Industry in the settlements makes up a rather negligible part of the broader Israeli economy. And you know it's it might be just a flesh wound for Israel and you know price they're willing to pay to Maintain a very good relationship with Everything else in Israel. Proper so before to the You know I would say. I don't think Israel's bending over backwards You know obviously has done the poultry and a few other things but buying the tickets and by knowledge. I think it's the you that's actually bending over ball Side bending over backwards to avoid putting Israel in such a position and you know this whole issue about The extent to which Israeli settlement products access preferential trade tariffs in the EU which has been a long ongoing discussion in these problems with that. Do that have preferential trade status so in theory. Not but the problem is enforcement of that Rest on European authorities on the U. of border and customs authorities not on the Israeli exporter and so that creates additional complication. So I'd say that as an example to which you know I think it's more the EU has kinda gone gone out of its way to try not make this a big issue in other words. Sometimes the goods do enjoy preferential trade status coming from something. So there are instances in which they have. They have access to this because the The certificates who have been Incorrectly filled out And so instead of saying you know product of Israeli settlement says product of Israel. And the problem is you can't bought a th authorities on able To control every single product so in other words what an answer to to our to our earlier question not only is this not a boycott or or sanctions but products or not only getting sold. But they're getting preferential trade. Status sometimes is in some instances documented. And certainly this doesn't affect trade from Israel proper. So it'd be hard to talk about this as a of any kind right exactly and I think you know and and before getting into also get as a question which. I've been avoiding so far but I do that. I will get that but There was a lot of controversy over this. Edu Requirements for the correct labeling of products. Just tell us what labeling really is you know so clearly Purely the correct labeling that our father so Israeli products always had to be labeled is food products. I should say I've always had to be labeled like food politics any other country. The problem was Opposite Point These products Trading settlements being labeled as products of Israel and there was a feeling that this was Incorrect from the point of view of supply supplying correct consumer information to citizens and so so the commission issued Some counterfeit -cations saying that products from the Israeli settlements should be labeled as coming from Israeli settlements and this created a big backlash Amongst you know from the Israeli government even members of the of the Israeli Labor Party opposition at the time an elsewhere accusation anti Semitism. But when you look at it these products is still being sold in the EU. So this was never about banning settlement products Purely putting Pudi insuring that the label that ebeling was correct and in many ways this was this was kind of an attempt to avoid having bound products so in other words it was public Out The settlement products to continue being sold in markets. So despite you know the the the developed that came from from the Israeli authorities actually the the the consequence of this evening was pops. You know much more normative you know. So in terms of The EU continue to make distinct- distinction rather than An actual Cost in imposing actual costs in Israel. So this is dance to get out of this. Differentiation is not about inflicting Home on his tail economic harm applying pressure. Not so much so so I think we need so often. That's how it's portrayed and so when people say well this is you know Sanctions you know. It's not because sanctions have complete sanctions all coercive designed to inflict pain. This is not. This is a normative thing. Now I think we're here with does have leverage is through this normative angle so again. It's about the U continuing to to to say that we continue to make a difference between Israel and the settlement so Israeli occupied territories. And it's pushing back against what has been quite a concerted effort by By supporters of the movement to To raise the distinction between Israel and the occupied territories on the ground but now increasingly internationally but one final point. I want to make on. That is at the moment we've seen differentiation. Applied is being very piecemeal so at the devil you Israel relations More and more these agreements have been corrected As I said you know elsewhere it's very ad hoc but we haven't yet with the exception of Horizon. Twenty twenty this research project. We haven't yet really seen differentiation. affecting areas of the EU Israel relationship. That all considered to be very vital Unlike what are those areas that are vital? So the big one that's being Would be you know the financial sector if the used of say listen. We can only trade with the debate of Israel's financial sector that remained within the Green Line. And that you know. We can't expose all financial dealings without set to the supplement to to to the Israeli financial institutions in the settlements started. Trying to to impose differentiation. Between this I think that's when it would become quite potent because everyone knows distinction between right. I mean how can you deal with an Israeli bank? If that Israeli bank is based inside the Green Line but also funds mortgages for settlements outside the Green Line. And so I think this is it becomes very a a much more impactful and we've seen this this this you know in terms of these financial considerations when it comes to financial dealings with the wrong approach not comparing Israel to of course but I mean but we have seen you know in terms of went to the states Have CONCERNED FINANCIAL. Relations could be supporting what they did again on. North on lawful project. We have seen them take measures So so my point with Israelis you know if if you saw this differentiation plight financial sector it would create obviously massive waves and I think it would put the financial sector in a in a area where you'd either have to fence. Its own operations. Basically creating two separate entities which we all know almost be impossible Unicorn there. Are we not seeing that? Because it's the extremely controversial things even for me to be saying. I mean because because of the impact it would have on the financial linkages between the EU in Israel. And so it's gone the out of his way to say this is not something would ever consider doing. I wonder to what extent to Israel in this inability to be more forceful derives from Israel's efforts to drive away edge between certain EU countries and perhaps recruit more quote unquote friendly governments like Hungary and Poland and Slovakia To frustrate such a steps I mean Israel has its own differentiation policy. Which is differentiation from you know France Germany and other western European countries. Who MIGHT BE UNIFIED Or a little more unified over this kind of thing. We should leave Germany out of that And other EU countries. That don't seem to mind as much. That's Israel's differentiation policy. What's been how does that work? So so I think one has to give credit to the Israeli government. I think it's been very effective. Totally lots of credit in playing the US game and And in some ways better than most member states in terms of you know engaging with some mistakes to block some other member states and block e you level action We've seen a Netanyahu repeated Visits and meetings with members or leaders from the Visegrad countries to the Central European essentially eastern European countries of the EU and. We've seen that also that kind of attempt to That block but now also the blocks wins the Baltics the Balkan countries that could be future members as well as those proved extremely effective But I think there's another element which is also really downplay. This is the extent to which Israel's reaction to something which I think is as I said before very inconsequential almost which is the neighboring which you know besides normative issue as I said. Laving has failed to impact. But the Israeli ferocious nature of Israel's response to this labeling the the browbeating arm twisting The besmirching of the US character You know the you really felt that. And I think you know we told me talk about Israeli Military Strategy. You know this this kind of this doctrine about the disproportionate response to any publication. They know Israel always deploy ten times. More false against the adversary. Can I think you can see? In some way. In terms of its diplomatic relations with the u something inconsequential inconsequential as labeling elicits. A ferocious reply from from Israel and and I think that that's had an impact. Because I think you have to eat you and love mistakes that go. Oh my God we never want to go there again right Let me represent one of those critical questions that is often heard in Israel for many people. Including from our previous interviewee Miocene on an Israeli academic and she You know observed that this differentiation policy is really different from any other Policy you holds for other near Member States so people within the firm or states within the first orbit of Noni you members. She claims there is no other state that Israel that the relates to in that way and that certainly does make it look like an outstanding kind of singling out of Israel so which is true. So yes. That's an interesting point. And and this goes back to your question about whether this anxiously on as I said obviously differentiates north sanction. But then let's look at what the U has done in other situations that are somewhat comparable. So let's look at Crimea which was as we all know annexed by Russia. In that case you look at that measure that you took and some of them could fit within the differentiation category. So but even in this instance much harder than what it's done vis-a-vis Israel so for example At prohibiting the import of products from Crimea unless they have certificates of origin from Dev- which soft goals is not going to happen. It has done that in Israel so that the equipment would be to say no. The e will only accept products from these settlements. They have a certificate satirical origin issued by the PA. So it hasn't done that. But then in the case of Crimea is gone even further and in that case actually has imposed You know what I would call restrictive measures but common sanctions crippling sanctions. We should say or at least they were intended to be crippling. I mean the targeted against you know Individuals entities that will believed to have been Supportive of or and driving Russia's annexation of Crimea. So again those things we haven't seen in the case of Of the occupation of the West Bank. You know I could go on. Look going to talk about one more. Yeah Northern Cyprus exactly and just our favorites everybody's favourite Western Sahara. Please tell us about both and why. They are similar different north Cyprus again. There's a lot of each situation is different in many ways northern Cyprus territory. Nor the separate survey by USA etc etc but in this case in Cyprus again slogs from cyclists Only allowed into you mockus if they have a certificate of origin issued by Nicosia against. This is something we haven't done These via Israeli settlement products in other words you could say that the EU is relating to Turkey the same way it's relating to Israel in refusing to accept products that Turkey would say you know. They shouldn't be labeled as as as made in Cyprus well so so that's laboring slightly different This gets very very complicated. But basically it's a bit of a moot point because any product that comes from northern. Cyprus will only be allowed into the market with the The acceptance of the Cypriot authorities of Nicosia Nicosia that sets the rules Terms of how it wants to relate to these products. I'm sort of oversimplifying. But that's just. Okay which is again slightly different With with Western Sahara Fisher. And I think you know I'll be won't miss my words. I think the way that some member states and And the European Commission has behaved twist and saw is in my view verging on on shameful in terms of also bending its rules and so when when you do have supporters of the Israeli settlements that attack the EU for not enforcing civilised down is in West saw. I think to certain extent they're right now again there's differences in some differences in terms of how the UC's the territory from its own legal point of view but no I think certainly the EU deserves criticism for how it's engaged with his heart. Having said that I think what it does show is that there is a certain inevitability when it comes to the implementation of ill rules so even when we have states that don't want to fully respect them and the and also by the way in the two with a gallstone settlements the member states haven't really a won't heartedly embraced the legal necessity. Either it often. It's it's what they do is a product of promoting and pushing By civil society by other member states by parliamentarians. You know this is not. I don't think we should over exaggerate. How eager the EU has been told to settlements instead that certainly would tools Western Sahara It hasn't done enough in my view to to To meet its legal requirements. But then what happens is in what's happened is the Polisario has taken a case against the European Council in a court of Justice yet to the injustice saying basically that The EU is not differentiating. Sahal Morocco in its bilateral beams to do with agricultural officials and each time the European colder justices as right the EU should do more to implement. It's not recognition of Robin sovereignty over Western Sahara and to ensure that its agreements with Westphal do not include site that is agreements with Morocco to not include Western Sahara. The council has been fighting this So again that goes back to my criticism often but it does show that that the remains blues based organization so even sometimes when it does to me this one rules whether it's whether that's its rules tools the settlements or its rules tools Western Sahara. We do see that again that this law does have a son inevitability in just a matter of whether the EU is sort of dragged kicking and screaming. Okay let's look at how let's look at The ultimate question about all this which is how effective is it. I want to point out that on the website of the European Council on Foreign Relations. You have a tracker page in. Would you go through each member-state bless you and each member states? Different agreements on tax Agreements trade issues and rather technical things. But you look at each one and whether they comply with UN Security Council resolution two three three four which is basically making this distinction between settlements in Israel. And I see you know when you have this column where you mark with an X. Or Avi or check check mark whether whether these regulate whether these agreements with the member states are complying and I see a lot of red x's their meaning in so many agreements are not complying including the kinds of countries. You'd think would comply like even Norway was all XS. Denmark had one agreement and compliance. So is this whether you know beyond the justification is the strategy effective is differentiation. So so the answer is at the moment. I don't think it is. I mean I think one has to be quite it pains me to say this as someone who's been really pushing this but I think it's clear that developments on the ground in particular What I would call. Israel's creeping annexation de facto annexation settlement building continues to outpace any positive Dynamics that can be achieved through differentiation. In especially as we talked about the normative effect that differentiation can have now. I don't think there's been no impact of the strategy again. When it comes to this normative I did the differentiation. As being important in terms of allowing unionist member states to continue to say there is a difference between Israel and the settlements average not recognize Israeli sovereignty the settlements which flies in the face of what the Senate movement wants with the Israeli government wants and what Eric administrational seems to want because American administration is also be kind of attacking this idea of differentiation. So I think it is. I think we'd be wrong to say different chases cheap. Nothing but certainly hasn't achieved enough and I think as the differentiation truck show this because quite clearly besides some noteworthy achievements that we've talked about You know obviously the vast majority of Europe relation with Israel continues to to include The supplements And United still saying this E U is by fall under the the the the best pupils in the cost when it comes to differentiation immediate. Yoka outside of you have been Also states have the same obligation You know the. Us has some examples of differentiation dating from the nineteen eighties But then there's very few other countries that have that reciprocated. Like Russia to my knowledge has done nothing. China has in one of its labor agreements with Israel made a distinction and South Korea and South Korea betrayed agreements. They're you know they're awesome. Instances but by and large most member states have done nothing. Canada's done nothing straight. He's done nothing so it'd be wrong to say this is like an ego centric a problem but I think you know going back to also get out of the question. You're on about what impact it can have and I mentioned the finance stuff which is quite an abstract to him. Because it's is now. The finances is very complicated My own taxes. But but you know but he's practical Example of this idea of applying differentiation financials fail. Look look at the fact that Most states Suddenly most states in Europe has a have the agreement with Israel on the avoidance of Double Taxation. Which means that if you if you live in one country you not. GonNa you decrease your taxes that country but the other than you don't get taxed twice Now most of these Taxation Agreements Don't clearly differentiate between Israel and the settlements and so there is a big risk. And I know in some cases this actually happened where let's Where satellites can claim the benefits of that of those provisions of the bilateral taxation agreements. Well if someone who is robustly double tax by the US and Israel? I can tell you that if people on the settlements had to pay double taxes they would they would high tail it out of there and I and I think this is the issue also and in terms of the broader theory of change and again I want to stress that this is not just tissues not to settlements the issue is not interest Israel. We have another conversation about Palestine Palestine Palestinian. Because you do right about that too that the Palestinian situation also requires a lot of change in order for the peace process but the race of items of the border theory of changes. You Know Again. It's not the EU that's going to end the occupation is ultimately going to. I think have to be decision that taken by Israeli society. An outside observable. I think the problem is he at the moment. Is that the cost. Benefit calculations that most rays have lean lean a predominantly towards continuing occupation and. I can't blame his ratings. Because you know you know what you have with occupation. It seems like it's Fifty plus years. Why would you move towards an uncertain unknown reality of ending the occupation with all the onset tease at that brings especially if at the current moment? You don't feel like you're actually paying any cost fort now. Of course I would say long term. It's going to be big issues until the demographics etc etc. But suddenly at the moment you know Israelis to say well. Where's the cost? And so I think the differentiation is kind of a way to also tip away at cost benefit calculations chickens just to finish than obviously some religion does a kid if a poultry farm out in the settlements camel cannot export his his his chicken products to today you to Denmark shipping. Where something else? Which is like the financial sphere. Damn I think average is ready to have Do Start to feel the pinch. Do you think and let me ask you this last question before we wrap up do you think. There's any sort of reckoning. Among policymakers that you know it needs to be done. The you know he. They need to turn up the heat for you. Know to save their Dearly beloved two state solution if it can be saved at all you know I think there's certainly acknowledgement at the two state. Solution is Moving increasingly beyond reach. I'm there's a lot of concern about a potential moves by the next Israeli government To do your eight formally annexed West Bank territory and you know in this feeding Something should be done but I think you know again. I think the negative trajectory on the ground is likely to outpace any action that could come from the EU. So by the time that you may decide to do something. It risks reacting to that comple- rather than actually preempting it. You love it. Thank you for coming to the show you should say you're speaking to us from London. So thanks again for being here and it's good to talk to you. Thanks very much. I enjoyed it. And thanks to Georgia Foscarini our producers and again to the Van Leer Institute for their generous support. Thank you especially to the German government for sponsoring this special series on. Israel's relationship with the EU and European countries now a request many or most of you. Listen to US ON THE APPLE PODCAST. App and we'd like you to please consider writing a review. Just go to the ratings and reviews section and write us. Whatever you think and feel you do can support us by going to our website. T. V. One DOT FM slash Tel Aviv review and subscribing to our patron campaign. Check out our archive. We have over five hundred interviews. If you like us you can also like us on facebook. Our page is called the Tel Aviv. Review podcast ideas from Israel and. Follow both me and a lot on twitter. 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Unorthodox Unedited: 2 Jews, Infinite opinions

Unorthodox

1:41:14 hr | 1 year ago

Unorthodox Unedited: 2 Jews, Infinite opinions

"Hey Unorthodox this is your host Mark Oppenheimer and what I'm about to give is not really an episode of Unorthodox this week. I'm playing for your conversation. That was recorded few months ago between two of my favorite people in the whole world. One is Leah Betts whom you know. Well Oh my co host. My fellow host on Unorthodox and the author of numerous books including a great book about Leonard Cohen the Songwriter and Singer and forthcoming book about Stanley. The comic book artist Liles One of those guys who can do it another guy you can do it. All another favourite person of mine is Jay Michaelson who is a rabbi and Jewish religious spiritual teacher. His new book is called called Enlightenment by trial and error. It has the egregiously long subtitle. Ten years on the slippery slopes of Jewish spirituality postmodern Buddhism and other spiritual heresies. He earns his is honest paycheck working at the company ten percent happier which makes a leading meditation APP. But anyway that's not really what matters. That's not what matters what matters here is there to people who had never met each other have radically different politics from each other. And I thought might actually love each other and I'll tell you why I wanted to see them in conversation Asian I was the one who brokered this meeting said. I want you guys to talk because even though Jay is a pretty left wing guy and liles are pretty right wing guy even though they have radically different tendencies in in a lot of ways and in fact I had heard each of them say pretty harsh things about the other ones writings. They're very similar. In certain ways they both are in search coach of radical ecstatic experience. They are the friends of mine most likely to know where to find mushrooms or acid or a Hosa. They are people who have been down many. He many spiritual pads are people who meditate there people who are kind of like always looking for the great beyond and in that regard even though they are political opposites. They're actually really really similar so I've always wondered what would happen if these two people sat down and had a conversation with each other and I thought that the conversation could actually end up being really beautiful and could actually end up signaling. Something about how we can talk across. Great Divides and find things that we have in common so I persuaded them to come into a studio together. And here's ninety minutes of what happens when Liebowitz and Jay Michaelson talk. Judaism spirituality Israel Palestine and pretty much. Everything else some of you are going to hate this but I actually think ninety seven percent of you if you give it ten minutes will find that you are totally absorbed and hooked. And you're going to hear the whole thing. It's one that deserves your attention. I think it will reward every minute attention. You give it have a listen from us. Great and then the You know the heavens will open. That's fine but I did a deep dive into you in the last few days and I like you more than before I did. The deep dive will which is good. If the opposite of that would kinda Suck Okay and then I read your stuff. You know there's more of like I like the quirks. Like sort of libertarian frustrated. Kind of conservative right on in Israel but not necessarily on other issues. It's now I genuinely feel completely politically lost to. You're homeless I. There's absolutely zero based on what I was reading from you. Yeah like the thing I hate them with some Republicans like well. Yeah I mean if you're it absolutely Gary Johnson I citizen. Oh you're only as a real voted Hillary Clinton if I had to vote but I in Israel. Are you voting in the election right now not going back for that you didn't. It'll be like one hundred and eighty degrees. It'd be you like we all. Of course all Brooklyn it'd be like Hey Mazda yeah yeah. Whatever they're happy that would really shift the power? I'm only thinking of scum of the Earth Athena like people in L. A. and like rail number this is a Haredi thing because they don't actually I'm in favor of that by excluding me too because otherwise otherwise we'd I'm one hundred percent in favor of that fascinate because that would be the new minister of Defenses Yakov. Leads Josh Ready Okay Halloween. I mean you know. We're in so. I'm going to attempt to brief introduction and then this is going to be the world's least structured shirt and hopefully most interesting conversation great. Our guest today is the Great Jay Michaelson a writer scholar Yoga and Buddhism expert. And here's why find you so interesting. You're you're the one person one of very few who I would read an essay and be like. Oh my God I disagree with this. So incredibly fiercely like emotional. You know sometimes times you're like okay. Well this is not agree. But I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to give it any mind but when I read you I feel like angry in this good good purifying way because I always feel that had not been for like some half turn. I might have ended up exactly where you you could have fallen in the perdition. Yes fading of where you are right. I feel like there's an engine here that we shared some operating system that were connected detail and so on the great advice of our shared. Friend Mark Oppenheimer We thought it'd be very interesting to sit together. and See if we could bring redemption to this world so thank you for as long as it's not redemption to you or to me individually no longer collect it has to be and so let's I tried to get to the core of of of the sting that both unites and separates us really you. You seem to be someone who's immensely connected elected to this. I don't call Messianic. But but this this tradition that quivers just below the surface of of Jewish history of really being in a very serious dialogue with with transcendent forces and really wishing to take your pursuit not in a way that reads Judaism as this kind of cultural construct into which we were thrust by the accidents of our birth but rather as as some kind of grand mystical mysterious. He's project which connects when I read your writing about issues of of of Buddhism and Karma Dharma and things of that nature. I feel feel that it makes perfect sense. These are also topics that I'm interested in toss talks about. Your journey is the question that the end of this. I wished that listeners. I could see this sort of irony on your face as he said that kind of cliche sentence after a bunch of not cliche introduction again they want to get their Gandhi Orsoni kind of no totally framework. It's funny when a lot of times so we're here partly because I'm plugging my new book. And a lot of times I get asked by the sort of quizzical in this quizzical way. How how Buddhism and Judaism fit together and I love that I think? Maybe there's a piece that we share I mean for me. It's almost I obviously. I mean we're answering different questions. They're doing it in very different ways. But they're wrestling with the transcendent framing. They're you know they're sort of a question. Estrin about what's meaning what's happiness How do we have? How do we build a justice -ociety or at least a society where we're not killing each other all the time different approaches to how to do that but it is true that they really fit together? I think for me so this book is a lot of stuff written along time ago and I thought there were two reasons reasons I put it out. I'll get the I am answering the question but so I put this off for two reasons first. I thought this was some of my best writing on spirituality but second I really felt like the journey Ernie would be of interest a lot of books that are in the kind of spirit. so-called spiritual bookshelf are people who think they have answers and then they tell you the answers And I was much uh when I was kind of starting out twenty years ago I was much more attracted to people who've seemed so they were still figuring it out and that's that's what this book is so the book actually is kind of the journey. There there was a real tightness. I would say early on when I wanted to make Judaism have the answers to all of those questions where there is a sense of like it had to be in in this container and so even things that were clearly from outside the container like mindfulness. For example. I would try to shove into the container because there were some vested interest in making the container. Have everything I wanted to have in it. Definitely don't have the sense anymore. Probably the opposite. But you know I. I grew up as a sort of typical conservative American Jew in the suburbs. nominally liberal nominally religious. But there was some weird fact about me there are a bunch of facts about me being one of them but the weird fact that I'm thinking about is there. I was kind of drawn to spiritual something even at a very young age so as a camper Amman I would walk in nature and just have words worthy nature moments without realizing certainly without having that language and understood I take it right and there. There was some sort of profound difference between you. And the other campers who were there for the sort of you know scripted. Sort of like now. They'll be color war. You'll learn about Entebbe it'll be nice you know. We'll sing a few songs. You'll get a lesson about Zionism. You're looking for God in very different places. And Yeah I wouldn't even have said God at the time But something something that felt sacred which for fourteen or thirteen year old kind of odd and for forty two year old. Maybe yeah I I guess it it there partly because there wasn't really a language for I'd just know that I felt a certain kind of at home nece in nature and being being on my own and Part of it was is reducible to queen us just not fitting into that kind of what most people were doing which was trying to get at Camp But it's funny. You mentioned color war. When I returned on staff ten years later there were a bunch of kids who who started the red team to protest the color and I was there now amplifies that did not endear me in any way The Camp Administration. I did not start in case anyone's listening. We're still litigating this. I did not actually start the red team. They he came to me but we did all of those things. Yeah we we learned about Anton tissue above so Tishkov was bad because the Jews lost but on the by the afternoon of Tishkov it was good because the Jews one and you get a movie. We watched rate unintentionally sometime sometimes. We watched operation thunderball and I cried for Yoni Netanyahu so many times a year after year after year. We've watched the same one of the same two movies and that continued when I went on a US Y teen tour. When I was fifteen and sixteen I sort of came back wanting to be religious in some way and I put on to fill in every morning for for a couple of years and in my early twenties I was initially attracted more to WHO Asian derived forms of contemporary practice so I read in the art of motorcycle maintenance? I tried zen meditation and in my junior or my sophomore year of college. Actually Columbia I discovered couple are Jewish mysticism. What I didn't know as I was actually discovering it through a kind of Buddhist Jewish lens it had been filtered through people like art green and people like him and Danny Matt but at the time? I thought I was discovering the kind of answers I was looking for Jewish masters of American Buddhists of American Judaism filtered through a Buddhist Lens Right. But what is it. I'm very curious about this because this is this is kind of an instinct that I feel to. Maybe you would help me sort of understand it a little bit better here. You are already in the practice of of what we will call for the purposes of this conversation religion right which is a complicated word. You're putting on to fill in your governing. There's there's like a discipline there and you feel drawn to other practically feel drawn eastward you Phil drawn to meditation. How does that work? What is it about the showers? Say or the feeling that answer only part of your yearnings I think certainly on the shot level on the on the surface level of the text. There's not that mythical impulse or language That is there underneath the surface level. But I didn't have access to that I had no idea about cobb ballistic you know writings on prayer for example And then you know reading it could be done in the Dow physics that everything is one and that this can be perceived and meditation or through psychedelics But at this point in my in my life more meditation than psychedelics. That was that that felt like well. That's what it's really about. That's why I'm doing this in. The first place is to kind of get closer to this sense of the sacred. I remember in my my freshman year. Columbia was just eighteen. I took an intro to eastern religions. Class the kind of title. We probably wouldn't have in a university university class anymore and and just hearing about the bug of Gita and hearing Tucked Pharmacy you are that somehow resonated in my frustrated frustrated eighteen year old brain and heart and I was very drawn. I was really drawn to it and and yet there was something about the fact that this that similar or stuff was in the Jewish tradition that resonated in a different way. I remember going to Israel my junior year. I was actually in England that year but I took a trip five weeks in Israel because they have long vacations locations in British universities and there was just something it was over Pesach and there was just something about the belonging that was really powerful for me at that time the belonging to sue this this tribe enterprise set of technologies people And yet at the same time I assume again that because you are are How old are you forty eight forty? You are like me of that generation in which I assume you know being gay was an ordeal earlier on but at some point lint transition into something less than the life sentence that it was for an earlier generation of of gay men. So how did that first of all is that accurate second of all. How did that a Play around with it played in strange ways. I so I I was late coming out. I came out at thirty which was two thousand one in calendar years and So that's that's pretty late so I actually find. My partner is just four years older than me. But he's of a previous generation of gay men because he lived through the AIDS crisis and I really didn't and I was in the closet in the eighties and nineties and that was pretty miserable but it was perhaps less miserable than what was happening out in the gay world at the time But I definitely had I I feel like a lot of my consciousness was like decades earlier because it did really feel like being gay with somehow the worst thing in the world which in the nineties it really wasn't already but I still had those messages really internalized and I became brought Shumita at twenty two after college. Because I really did feel like okay. Here's I here's the answers and the way to make that work in a life is to have this halachic lifestyle. We're going to double down. Yeah exactly rolling. And it wasn't. I didn't stay in the closet is it. Because I was orthodox I became Orthodox because I was in the closet like there was there was the juicy of that religious life that was not available salable in any form of liberal Judaism at the time maybe in like Jewish catalogue cover our movement. But I didn't know anything about that. Plus you already late to that party to that was already over by the time you go. That's right that's a really good point. And there wasn't the kind of knew I'd say sort of new flourishing of that really more in the two thousands. It wasn't really nineties and so there there just wasn't what I knew was the like really bad conservative and reform surfaces that I'd gone to you know in in camping in college and stuff and these really exciting Hasidic and neo cosmetic environments where people really cared and they're running back and forth and they're shaking and they're struggling. They're into it and the whole day. So that whole like like Talmudic velten shung of you know. Here's this whole encompassing religious cultural social lifestyle and and it was really attractive for a while and and I still kinda get it in a way even though I left that now twelve was twenty years ago right. I mean I think when when so much of your experiences kind of directed by negative spaces so to speak right both sort sort of like being gay and arriving at the heels of the AIDS crisis to so much pain and loss and suffering Arriving at the Jewish spiritual seen on drew spiritual scene at the moment where. It's kind of like fizzling into this. And here's something that feels almost like a radically vibrant and present it was a radically vibrant. I'm glad you said that. Edward I because I sometimes hesitate. But that's this sublimated eras in community. That was just intense. You know whether it people singing around a Shabbat dinner table able for hours and hours that quivering of prayer I mean they're sending you know connecting about this and I think that you know there was actually. The one thing is cruel that there was actually a lot of joy in those years. There was the sensitive part as was relatively new at that point. And I don't I'm hopefully. We won't really do a lot of politics stuff but there was actually the dawn of the the sort of the Oslo process which from where I was sitting was great. There seemed to be like this historic horrible conflict that with with Rabin who is now going to end and there's GonNa be some resolution and I really look back you know. There really was a ton of hope among you know liberals Zionist. That's like me that that was going to be a thing and it almost seemed inevitable at the time so there was this kind of identify Utopian spiritual community that I was part of search parties into Talmud text study while also doing Coupla at Hebrew University and having that piece to and at the same moment this kind of atmosphere in Israel of that was really there was just a lot of joy. It didn't feel I. I get your point like coming in kind of at the end of some some things but it felt like the beginning. It just felt like there was this real vibrancy there and that's also when you write your dissertation at Hebrew. I started it was stretched out so I because I I went to law school a finish that in ninety seven and then I went to Israel. Was it days then. I got a master's only later. Did I decide to PD. So at that point I was doing my master's work studying being with mostly Dell one of the great couple scholars alive and one of the Great Faucet. Ism Scholars Live right now and and yeah it was. It's really paradise. You know sitting one on one with Moshe Idel doing Lafayette Tech's doesn't just great. Because what are the things that fascinated me about you. Early on learning about your background is is learning that you had chosen tried to dissertation about Jacob Frank so first of all tell us a little bit about this Peculiar human beef so I'll actually do still frame it and the journey context because I think it it it sounds. It's so when I decided to do a a PhD. I decided to write on. Acidic master named rough are on of star sells whose this wonderful non dualistic kind of master and he's a disciple all of the politics of the founder of the Cupboard Hocism and without going into too much of the detail who was really one of the most radical non duelists that everything is God in this moment is just a ripple in the ocean of the Cosmos and so on and I really set out to do that so happens racquel Elliot had she had also written her dissertation a million years ago on reverend and yet I sort of kept cheating like I discovered in the Hebrew University libraries. There had been a Hebrew translation of really it turns out really bad Hebrew translation of this weird taxed by this guy named Jakko Franck Jacob Frank who was described by Gershom Scholem and other scholars dollars of couple is kind of the degenerate bitter end of the Sabatin. Heresy so sixteen sixty six shop tights fee. False Messiah in in Europe has up to one third of European Jews. Thinking that the Messiahs is here and is going to lead the Jews. The land of Israel this comes to the attention of the Turkish Sultan and who gives them the opportunity to convert or die and he chooses to convert so the mass movement ends but the the small movement continues. Actually there's a kind of a classic work called. When prophecy fails by Leon festinger about what happens? When PROPHECY FAILS WHEN THE MESSIAH TURNS OUT TO CONVERT TO A slum instead of martyr himself or actually be the Messiah and what festival describes happens exactly in that movement so the mass movement ends but a small core of dedicated followers become even more dedicated and Jacob Frank one of the leaders of that sect the sect those who remained they call themselves Miami named the believers and there are different parts of those sects in in different communities but basically klay they were kind of the the radical edge of the sabotage heresy which was anti nausea anti-europeanism? Means it's a religious duty to disobey the law so not just like thank you eat a cheeseburger because you think country is nothing and you cheeseburgers cheeseburgers delicious but no you eat a cheeseburger. doff like deliberately to break the law as a a religious obligation. That's what differentiates heretic from a normal person heretic. Someone who believes just believes in a way that the system says the authority systems as is wrong and just just kept cheating on Rovira on with Jack with Jacob Frank. It felt like no matter how radical theology was it was going to end up at the same place which was Torah and Mitzvahs. Somehow we're are going to somehow get back to like reinforcing that and with Jacob Frank you never knew where he can. Here's some sort of wild way out and I do mean wild. I mean there are stories about him. one particular in which there was some party right in which a lady according to some rumors. The the rabbi's wife got undressed and put on her head. The the sort of kit there the little crowd that you put into tour and danced around and everyone kissed her like she was a Mizzou. Yep probably never what happened but it may have happened. There definitely are reliable accounts of sexual ritual among the Frankish community. Not As many as we sometimes think it's funny that one particular account was sort of the stock accusation against the heretics so this heresy persisted really for almost one hundred and fifty years From the from around sixteen sixty till until the dawn of the nineteenth century. So the rabbis have. I didn't know what to do. I tried to ignore it. I just sort of Oh this will go away on its own. And then it didn't and they tried to suppress it. And eventually with Jacob Frank it really came to a head and they turned him over to the Christian authorities to be to be executed and his entire sect so as a couple of thousand people at that point and led to the largest mass apostasy and Jewish history when several thousand people converted on most two thousand to avoid being branded as heretics because they would be burned at the stake and they were they were turned over to the Christian authorities. Bhai the rabbinic leaders who basically they said there's a lion in text by one of the persecutors persecutors that said when sometimes on a limb becomes diseased. It's better to just cut it off before it infects the whole the whole body and what what what is it. I'm trying to kind of place. Ace this work in the context of your journey and I love the way you put it. You know was considered masters. It's always going to end no matter how beautiful and ecstatic and revelatory revelatory. It is it's always going to end up in religious observance right in this place in retrograde religion well not not for them but for us maybe retrograde Jewish observance. It's going to end in a very very traditional gender context very traditional views about other other nations. You know that they have no souls. Not even people like tar you know and so it it ends not only raafat and reinforcing sort of standard line but even the the the lousy parts so even when you're deep deep in your already ready looking for the way out I guess that's true I think part of what seduced me about frank was also that almost everything that scholars upset about him turned out not to be correct. That's just fascinating as a scholar. Bertram sholom didn't actually have access to some of the main frankish texts when he wrote his most famous articles about Franken. Just the story that that that you shared. I mean that's not something you came up with. That's like been for two hundred years. That's like a canonical story about the Franco sect and yet there's actually we know direct evidence that had happened in the same exact accusation with the woman with the you know danced and kissed and all that are made against other heretical sects. So like that just was so fascinating and he was really in a certain way. A total failure right after frank died in eighteen. Basically limps Frank Tyson. Sorry in the seventeen ninety. His daughter keeps it going until eighteen. Eleven when she dies and it disappears the sect is so total failure did not impact Jewish history on the other hand. Sort of prefigured. The a kind of spirituality that I've been involved with now for twenty years which is to say a kind of a no median neo-classic spirituality the same kind of mystical impulse else. That Franck and the savvy and the custom all shared that savvy in Kabul impulse but without the container of noman religion. I think that we get to to the To the sort of the crux of the thing that that both unites and sets US apart When I think about my own journey I will be very honest? Say That I share a lot of these concerns that you have an a lot of things about this This environment the swirled This energy baffled me. I do not understand a whole host of commandments. Nor my particularly uh-huh easy by the kind of world or or or structure That they necessarily suggest My emotional response bonds however is to say that in the service of a force that has sustained us for Millennia. It is is probably wise to be tool. It's me as a hero. Word of likes is basically cancelling of the self and like well. Okay I I may not find precise reason or even joy in some of these essences but I I actually believe in understand it as it were doing in a greater sense whereas it seems that you are finding a a an answer that that seeks or insists on the On the centrality of individual happiness is that fair. You had me until the last three words. I know you're perfect. I think I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't end it with centrality of individual individual happiness. I think if someone's individually happy but they're creating cruelty and suffering in the world that's a failure I do think that a certain kind of authentic fantasy happiness leads inexorably to compassion and to not wanting to create more suffering so to that extent I would. It'd be on board with everything you said. But somehow if the end point is individual happiness that feels like a bad end point and I I would agree with a critique of what is sometimes call A. California spirituality. We call it Marianne Williamson's spirituality. I love where it does really absolutely love. Where so but look even with Williamson who I did not mean to talk about today? You know she actually makes that connection directly for all of her faults of she definitely connects the personal spiritual to to the to the communal and justice You know I think maybe the surprises you the most conservative thoughts that I sometimes sometimes have a very similar to what you just said. which is you know? We don't really know what works. What we've got with some tweaks could be okay? Okay and maybe it'd be more prudent to kind of stay with some of these older forms. I think that's me getting older. But then that and that is a thought that I believe you feel that often these days. Yeah but I think then I reflect on what actually where the rubber hits the road where actually end up. And I'm still so far to the left of Lake Doc. Certainly the center but even parts of the left but you are also. I mean you know how I don't know where you are in like psychedelics. And their mass use or or even reserved very big fan so that's psychedelics. Have a lot in my experience. Direct experience they have a lot of a NARC potential right they have they they create by destroying it's like Kali the Hindu goddess who who creates by destroying an you know there's a lot of chaos potential in that in the in the use use of psychedelics and so I also sykes played in the past and even in the present play kind of big piece in my spiritual toolkit but it seems very non conservative if I it seems like the opposite like we're even tearing down our personal Psychology and epistemology how even know anything How does that fit with wanting to sort of well? I'm not sure about this piece or that piece. But I'm going to maintain the structure. I WANNA I want to step back one or two steps and get back to the to the core of this question and maybe it will be useful to think about this intersection of religion and politics six or or spiritual feeling and and sort of political ideological worldview. I Want I want to understand Dan What it is you feel when you look at at Judaism and say well This cannot stand revisions are an order for for for this to be acceptable to me in any meaningful way I mean I think the truth and I'm sort of hesitating just because you know we're GONNA so like bitterly disagree about this. But when I'm I'm actually I struggled early. Because I emotionally religiously find myself you know much closer to orthodoxy than UNORTHODOXY and yet the thought of going to show and sitting apart from my wife and my daughter bothers me immensely on on all sorts of levels that I don't really understand that this is something I'm actively grappling in some ways. The easy answer is gender and gender oppression. But that's what I was GonNa say to dodge my real answer which is actually about ethnocentrism and and and nationalism I think the moment it was a long gradual alienated in part of which is is captured in this book enlightenment by trial and error But you know there are certain moments where recognized where I was moving one of those one of the years I was living in. Israel was the coot the disengagement from Gaza and I was is living in knock loath which was the sort of Combo old school orthodox and new school in the Pacific Hippie Orthodox community in Jerusalem. And now it's kind of shifted. But this was back then and I was dominating and I loved the prayer the thing was so ecstatic and wonderful and it turned out there. Was this guy who was like right next to me. It was like really he really into it. And he's like swaying back and forth and clearly had a lot of like enthusiasm and I was like kind of amazed and thrilled to be standing next to someone who is feeling it so intensely told me like he's like this particular person is like an ardent cockney who has recorded several albums of music like what I would consider racist music And ardent pro Kahane not just like right wing for political reasons but like really hardcore rightwing like the Arabs are dogs and you know we he heaver. He recorded an album called neekam vengeance and I was like what do I still have in common with this person and then in knockout everybody had the little orange ribbon which was opposition to the And they're just seem to be this intense tightness and constriction around it and it felt like it just it. It began to feel like the benefits weren't worth the costs. It began to feel like the intensity of this Vicious feeling at that was at the extreme but even in a somewhat more moderate key and I don't just because I really need it's like I love that you went there. I want to go. Yeah there was. There was kind of it wasn't I think I have some some friends left. Who are who are Likud annex for security reasons and I kind of see you there although maybe not I think maybe a little to the right you you tell me? Yeah I don't really know and like I totally am agnostic on that ideology which is to say they may be right. I still think that it's possible to have have a sort of staged peace process where the risks can be contained and that that gamble to be extended to gamble is worth it but I totally get the logic of looking at the conflict and saying this just not enough of a partner on the other side. This is way too dangerous. We're playing with fire Whether it's Anti Semitism on the other side or just whatever it is there's just too much I totally am actually on board with that even though that's not way where I sit but the kind of transfer is okay because this is historically the land of Israel that just that view. I'll stop there. I could go on but just that view has the amount of human suffering that that would entail is just to me heartbreaking but and I'll just throw it let me throw I don't think but I also feel ideal of a lot of friends who are one staters from the left and I've actually thrown this at them to like. What would that really look like? There wouldn't be a one St Utopia of like oh great a land station horrible and to just kind of inhabit and I failed every time I've tried tried to do this with my with my Jewish voice for peace friends or other people in that camp just like really try to inhabit that world where just millions of people all forget that they're jus just millions of people are now stateless and ruled over by the group that they've been oppressing for seventy five years that it's not going to treat them kindly and some kind of even of South Africa where a model which it isn't but even if it were that's not what this place would look like and so I see it on both sides Ed's this kind of when ideology or I don't say that I'm not even GonNa say I just see it on both sides where to me. The human cost of some of these positions is just unacceptable. See I completely hear what you're saying in an agree with you on the politically prescriptive level on on a lot of the things to obviously think that the mass transfer of vast populations of for whatever reason is morally unacceptable which which posted the left of like about half of the Israeli. Right right now right. I mean that's kind of we talked about where you're GONNA politically I don't know but I I WANNA get. It's something that I'm sensing here. which is the question of nationalism with which I feel? You have a a a deep discomfort that the question of Jewish particularism right the question of a dare. I say a chosen as it seems when I read you even when you're not discussing this directly which are not a lot of the time time It it feels like it's still stuck there and and and sort of stopping you from connecting to this grand universal muscle energy of which you feel very much a part of because you've studied these mystical traditions that seek to do precisely that that seek to destroy these boundaries and connect next Saul and and write may be. There are some delegations. But it's all you know this this human energy and yet those same mystical traditions while they while they put forth those universe ideas which you just perfectly described. It's just like this huge human conundrum this tragedy where they fall back on you know. Oh really not just particularism chosen this but like really hard core like you know the Chris Kreider Satan and you know like everybody else is doomed and only the Jews or people so it's part of my disenchantment from couple. It was really two fold one was on that sort of textual level that all of these historical texts which are so beautiful ended coexisting with again. It's not even a rabid ethnocentrism. I mean it's really this onto logical duality between shoes and everyone else and then that that when again again that that cliche the rubber hit the road like when I the more I met really advanced Kabul lists and old school Hasidim. Yeah I mean. It wasn't just again. They weren't just on the right for security reasons. They were really on the right for dehumanisation reasons and I just couldn't whether it's Ginsburg like on the very extreme sort of advocated rabbi who's a brilliant cop list probably knows more than really anyone who talks to the press alive today but you know founded. The savage crime woman is like has written all kinds of things explaining. Why it's okay to kill Arabs and why the cessation of Robin was a good idea and all of these kinds of things? What so? He's maybe at the extreme but even like or the Cockatiel who is dominating next to me in in in knock load so it it's not A. I'm not upset about chosen us in particular killer but it does tend to play out in these kind of nasty ways and I think what I don't spend a lot of time attacking Jews for this stuff because we've been attacked a lot. I don't know that like I would one of the things again when I argue with the left is still argue against nationalism nationalisms terrible. We shouldn't have have any nationalism is like I'm on board with that. Let's start with Spain. So Spain is occupying another occupying at least two other national groups oops the cut the cut the Catalonians and the and the Basques. Let's start with Spain so let's deconstruct nationalism. With strong nations. I may be America. We could start with like a lot more secure countries than Israel In our sort of going down the list of places where nationalism has has been bad and I do think it's been bad in Israel but you know I. I don't spend a lot of a lot of time on the UN doing that attack for that reason. But there's but other opinion alone makes you pretty pretty pretty lonesome. I would imagine these days in your police days politically. I mean. I've stopped writing. You're still doing the the work. I've stopped writing on Israel Palestine once in in a while I write about it for the daily beast because you through taking a very different take on antisemitism from Uras by doing that where it's relevant to sort of American stuff and the stuff the daily beast cover's right for the forward anymore and no. It's true what used to be. It's a very weird thing that's happened. So like in that moment of hope right with Clinton and robbing and Arafat on the White House lawn. It felt like there was a consensus reality. That like okay. This is like what everyone. There's some rejectionists over here and there's some like further peace knick's over there but like the centre. Here's the center and it's going to happen and what used to be. Consensus reality is like no constituency whatsoever. It's like five hundred people at the J street conference you know and and and so now it's true there's been this very firm alternative consensus reality in Israel now that now absolutely one that you're horrified I one hundred percent right now i. The consensus reality has has totally shifted. you know. There's the an polarized. The one in Israel is is way to the right even the left in Israel is way to the right of where they were twenty years ago but the left. Is You know the left left Israeli impotent. Right it's only the centre-left that may be could win. This election may be And but and and the consensus reality among liberals you know. It's the loneliest places to still has to be a sort of liberal Zionist I wrote a piece a couple of years ago a few years ago called. Can you be Zionist if no one thinks you are. Because that's me. I used to be what everyone thought was assigned. Its own like Zen. Kwan was I really support Israel and they wanted to carry and I was like a standard boring labor Zionist for like my whole life and now the right wing doesn't think Zionist because I'm like Jay Street anti-israel Israel. I support the right of people to do their thing. So like I hate Israel and self hating Jew. So they're in their eyes and then the left what they see Zionist as a hopefully. I'm I'm not either like it was just a racist nationalist who wants to repress Arabs all the time so like no one I still I still think I'm Zionist because I support the Democratic Democrat Israel Jewish state in part of the land of Israel. But yeah it definitely and you you won. You won this one. There's no there is no constituency right now for what used to be the consensus pro Israel Pro Peace Center. Well you know if if indeed that is a victory for for my side of indeed I have aside in this in this race It's not a particularly sweet one because I think it comes the price of making so many people who formerly felt this very strong connection of fields connection dissipating. You wrote of a very you. You know famously emotive article. That got a lot of people. More certain a lot of the things that I've seen first of all I wonder if you could give us a brief description of it and talk a little bit about the aftermath of it and and and how do you look at today. Like what five years later. Oh God it's fifteen years fifteen years I wrote this article recalled. How I'm losing my love for Israel and It was the beginning of the process. We've just been describing and It's been it was fifteen years. It was before four. Peter Beinart wrote his book. It was before Jay Street existed. So there really wasn't that kind of machine left that existed That exists now are sort of exist now in existed. Let's say five years ago it was this period where it just felt like step by step the right wing government in Israel kept doing things that just couldn't it made it hard to love Israel and I really did grow up loving Israel in this sort of unreconstructed sense You know we joked about watching rate uninhibited on Antebi at Camp Roma. But I did and I really. I really felt that and it just gradually like piece by piece by piece operation by Operation Rejection Shen by rejection and obviously just to make sure to say this like there was just as much bad behavior on the Palestinian leadership as well but like I just kept. It was piece by piece. I I was losing my love for Israel and fifteen years later. It's pretty lost. I mean the Israel that I love is is the little bubble in south Jerusalem where he used to live and and not really the the liberal bubble in Tel Aviv. Actually which I'm just not not a fan of rather reasons reasons but like they're they're it's it's a but the enterprise itself it just I don't know I think there's an anecdote brief. I wanted to share. It was on a panel at the J street student conference with Burke an opera really was messiah like he was going to become prime minister where he was going to unite religious and secular. He was going to bring peace in our time but do it in a way that people were on board with and you know he moved. He went off the left the deep end so he wrote a book. And you know this listeners. May Not you know. Basically realizing that he's all he's done is in power right wing racist bad Zionism. He totally regrets Gretz Zionism completely and he basically the before the book came out. He had written some of this in Hebrew in articles but hadn't been in English and he was at the JC conference. And I'm in a room with the bunch of college students and him and me on panel and he starts saying what he's saying and I just wanted to tell the students like my world is shattered in front of your eyes like they didn't get it. They didn't know who he was or the stature that he had this is before he went to Jewish Agency. Before you know he was he was really. And that's true for me too. I'm not what anti Zionist moved to the right of Avram Burg. But there's that alien nation and you know the response that happened at that time. Ah Fight for the forward just as the forward closing down its print publication. They went out with like the best of the forward and and they asked me to reflect on on this particular article so I just had occasion to read it for the first time in ten fifteen years and the reaction to it really did for shadow the American Jewish Israel world that I feel we live in now. which is this kind of just post on facebook today this like idolatry of being offended which we find on the right and the left even more on the left on the right in my opinion but That that there's this kind of this real desire to be horrified and outraged Among haters on right and left. And so if it's jumping on anything I just felt like I felt so weirdly misconstrued when that article came out A lot of people read the headlines Headlines and don't read the pieces. I'm sure you know this from experience also and write responses based on the headline or what they think the peace must say even though they haven't actually read the piece would like the peace. Exactly exactly I would like you to be my boogeyman occupies this space which I can make a critique which way comfortable create exactly and that that definitely happened bend at that time and it did the sort of. I think it's funny. I just said a few minutes ago. That your side one but I really do think your side has lost. I think think losing the you know you've written some stuff about the Democratic Party and we disagree about some of it but we agree that Israel's losing the Democrats maybe it's because Democrats Kratzer into Phil tolerating antisemitism. I don't think so but whatever but definitely that is happening and I definitely don't think that's good for Israel and if if you you know do sort of look at some of the pulling of American Jews under the age of thirty you know there's this real polarization. This sort of hardcore are more pro Israel than ever in a more right wing sense. The large mass have really unsophisticated anti-israel views and I and I still feel fifteen years later. That article was is the Canary in the coal. Mine that There is an alien nation that setting in maybe most of the liberal American Jews will just assimilate and so it doesn't matter and end end Jewish philanthropy will continue to tilt really to the right and so they'll be plenty of support for whether it's pro Israel organizations or others but it feels those really unstable to lose all of Europe and all of the Democratic Party in in America doesn't actually feel like a victory. Well I think that part of the problem. I'm here though lies in if you look at what you defined as these swaths of younger Jews who don't find any any love in their hearts really for for his role even necessarily for for Judaism is that they are They're sort of replicating this position yourself at felt but lacking lacking your tremendous in very sincere boasts area addition and an attempt at actual. You know spiritual reckoning right. These are not people who are coming coming to these problems. Having studied you know Jaka Franck and and Kabala in custody or even Hertzel or and grapple these these are people who have given up the birthright no pun in. Tonight's well before considering how to engage with. Is this something that bothers you. And that's something when you look at these young fiery very anti-israel liberal Jewish was being like hold on. You don't get to say this because you didn't Sheva like me or the hardcore ones. Don't bother me at all Because they tend to be better informed They they've you know they've watched videos. They're actually pretty plugged in. I think they have. They haven't really gotten multiple narratives. which is what those of us in the center center left like to talk about a lot right the Israeli nerve Palestinian? Or if they're pretty much just on the Palestinian art but at least they know that narrative I I guess my bothered by the sort of ignorance or the anti-semitist anti Israel sentiment ish. It's pretty low down on you know there's like climate. Change kids in cages resurgence of racist racist nationalism. All over the world death of Truth Attacks Journalism. Like you'd have go pretty far from worry about. Yeah exactly for me to like where I worry about the mets and then actually above the mets. I care more about Alien Nation of Jews partly though because I do think there's there is like so much there's just a lot of good stuff in the Jewish kit and I think I do think as I wrote on years ago. Progressive Judaism has kinda reached. Its yovany meeing. We've Lost Jerusalem But we can set up these other little spaces says and like the Judaism that I practice. I have a two year old daughter and I love. I love lighting candles with her. I love you know just having our basic Chabad which does not like super high but which you know I love having a device free Chabad. That's not always easy but that's great. It's there so that's you know that I love that. I love the holidays. I love my weird Jewish Eco hippie summer camp that's up the house up the street from my house. Upstate Eden village camp. I love the Jewish Meditation Retreat that I co elite in In Connecticut each Christmas Week so like and I love the fact that there are other little boutique. Judaism's out there independent Manure Neem and little social justice. Jews things things and like I love the the those are there I have no freaking idea whether those are sustainable But I do know that. The the large edifices even within Orthodox Judaism but certainly outside the large offices are also not really super sustainable. So yeah I don't think there's any that's you said this a while ago like the sort of general small c conservative prudence which I appreciate and and sort of agree with that like maybe. This isn't working but this whole package has kind of worked for two thousand years E-eh but it hasn't worked for two thousand years of the Internet. It hasn't worked for the world in which we're living living in now which does seem really radically different from the world of you know the recent the recent past so I don't think anything necessarily works I am concerned about Jewish sustainability and the Jewish future. But I don't think anyone actually knows it's interesting to see now birthright since you pund on that earlier ago like the the sort of semi long term impacts really not sure that it's actually had any real impact so I don't think we know it works. Here's what I'd like to do now. I'd like to reserve a few minutes to talk about the book at some point but but in the rest of whatever of turning this into into like a more equitable conversation I I'd like to turn the table a so speak and even though this is nominally our PODCAST I. I'd like to give you the opportunity to to to do unto me as to you rather pointedly for the last thirty five minutes or so so fun though pressure but so I yeah I had no a little title of your journey because you've written about it Actually don't want to start there because I think it's we would end there because it's a it's a fun journey How so when mark and I were talking about doing this conversation? You and me doing this conversation I I. I think what what I find puzzling. When I look at your combination of spirituality and what's what's the opposite of social justice care and concern about out values? Let's call it that When I look at that sort of that yeah and and there see so? There's no there's no humane way to do an occupation right. You can't really do it in a way that doesn't hurt lots of innocent. The people I remember when I was in. I went on the encounter tour which is sort of lefty thing of schlepping Jews around the West Bank to show you how bad it is He's he's the frame and and we met a Palestinian official whose wife and children had been killed by an Israeli sniper because he was driving a car that looked like the car of the Hamas is operatives that they were trying to get that sniper did exactly what he was supposed to do. There was an investigation which cleared the sniper sniper identified. The car checked did the procedure to like. We're authorized to take this guy out. The guy was a bad guy. Bad come on terrorists with blood on his hands And yet he killed three innocent. Some people Two children in this man's wife. Where do you go with that on your spiritual side That's an excellent question that there will take me somewhere might be three years I I would say to answer but but I I want to kind of answer. In in a way that is that may be a deflects from the spiritual side towards the kind of like real emotional makeup of of of how view this first of all very truthfully I do not view this one minute as an occupation I view this as the very complex situation because really if you consider occupation than the university that I attended Tel Aviv. University is built on the ruins of three. The Palestinian villagers said we're evacuated at least one of them forcefully During the war of nineteen. Forty eight if you've used that Lintz it. It is actually much more problematic to inhabit tel-aviv peacefully and safely Then to kind of a gripe about what else is going in Judea Samaria which as you will notice I do not call the West Bank Call and so. I think that the problem begins in eighteen You know in the eighteen seventies when Jews begin returning to to their historical homeland into Palestinians with very good reasons or or the Arabs. Who reside there? Who later kind of define themselves as Palestinians start saying well hold on just a moment? I don't necessarily care nor should I that once upon a time this used to be your biblical homeland. This is my now and part of the kind of interactivity of this conflict and drama of it in the tragedy of it is that Up to my mind. Both sides are one hundred percent right and have have terrific claim. Not For one minute. Do I ignore or belittle. The Palestinian era of in fact part of my opinion or much of my opinion derives precisely from having as much respect for their narrative as I have reminded understanding which is rarely left often doesn't seem to that they're not gonNA give it up if you offer them a better deal. Hey guys the economy would be great for the for for for like a slightly better job or a nice small in Ramallah. You expect these people to give up on their dignity and and dreams of returning to their homes is in your phone in Lodin amount hyphen. No one in their right mind when I would not do it right. Someone came into my home said well. They used to be my home a long time. Go you may now only live in the closet Abi like well. I'm not going to rest until you're dead and gone and this completely. You know understandable to me a AH this being the premise and being very strongly affiliated emotionally ideologically politically religiously with one of these size and not with both of them My entire world view is then focused on Trying to find ways in which Making life more tenable for both sides is possible and if I deem it would which has been my political project because I grew up in Israeli left and believed this very fiercely seriously and if it is not possible to make it a tenable for both sides of for whatever reason then I care deeply about securing the life. We'll being of my people which to me is a very complicated proposition. Yeah I feel like it's the surly tragic. It really hurts to hear that articulated related so well because it I mean. There's a lot of ordinary Palestinians in Ramallah who do just kind of want to be left alone and those constituencies Are Flexible Right. When when Gaza looks like Gaza more Palestinians moved to the right? I mean why wouldn't you when Ramallah looks like Ramallah on a good day day. More Palestinians moved to the left. Why wouldn't you either? It's not true that numerically that a large majority or even a numerical majority of the Palestinian people certainly certainly not the ones in Judea and Samaria or the West Bank Have that all or nothing view. I mean that's why multiple narratives in two state solution is what it is. It's a compromise. I think it is also. It hurts a lot of Jews to know that your day in some areas the heart of biblical typical Israel and precisely. It'd be easier to give back Tel Aviv. And certainly from a historical point of view to know that that dream of the Greater Israel isn't going to happen is also a sacrifice and yet large when things are going well large number of Israelis would do that. I it feels to me that there's a fatalism of that conservative narrative which I heard from Benzion Netanyahu before even right current prime minister's father that. Let's give the Palestinians house sitting's dignity and not assume like the left does that. They're just GONNA roll over. I don't think the left ever assumed that people would roll over but people can be as we've seen in America there's been an increase in trumpism because of trump right when you have a demagogue shouting nasty things that people People that part of our universal human nature gets aroused. So yeah if you have someone say shouting for all or nothing. Whether it's on the Israeli writer the Palestinian right some people. We'll move in that direction. See I I disagree here because I agree with what you said before. Israel being sort of canarian coalmine but but I think it was a canary in the coal mine and and actually cut a much more Perverse almost way because Israel is probably the first a battlefield or the first arena in which may be the only significant Struggle of our century or at least of this part of it is is being played out. which is the struggle between left and right or Israelis and Palestinians or secular and religious people? It's a struggle between what the British theologist David. It's a struggle between British theologists. Whose name I'm blanking on David? Goodhart termed as the struggle between the anyways in the somewheres You know I think many on the left in Israel in Berlin in Baltimore wherever Believe that a life is best lived when it is a collaboration between educated People who share these universal values and could just as easily pick up and leave and do their jobs and feel at home. You know in Paris here is or Shanghai or Tel Aviv or anywhere as opposed to the somewheres to say. Well actually no look. We have a very specific set of values. These these are our values you may not like them and northey necessarily racist because you know we invite any group that wants to take an partake in it but this is our shared history this surplus we want to remain here under our conditions. which a lot of the times to the left is utterly baffling? I'm thinking for example in Israel all about the recent refusal of a the court to allow a an event geared specifically to the Haredi the community in the city of a Fula to have segregated seating. Here's a community of religious Jews and said like here's what we believe. We want there to be segregated seating and the court the Supreme Court said. I'm sorry you can't. Because universal values say that congregate like to me that's just lunacy and to me. This is what Israeli society is is. This is going for. It's not necessarily thinking that the Palestinians you know a have some sort of essential point of view. THAT'S A or B. Those things I agree with you politically can change but it is saying. Hey look we're not going to impose these universal progressive values in our situation because they simply don't fit fit. Those are nice words but at the end of the day you did dodge my question right. There's there's two million Palestinians living under if you don't WanNA use the word occupation Israeli military Tori rule and surveillance. You can't police that kind of population without force. It's impossible forces going to you know to to make the Omelet you have to break a lot of eggs right forces gonNA kill a lot of people. What do we do with the existential situation? Select sure I get everything you said but like it would also be simple as pie. If it weren't for the growth of the settlements in the last ten years it'd be pretty easy to more or less divide the territory where the population centers are to put to create the conditions ends where Palestinian moderates can flourish instead of creating the conditions where they look like traitors or worse and not have this daily violence daily humiliation At the risk of sounding like walking talking Cliche I reflect back on said disengagement that you mentioned a while back you you know. I look at Gaza. I look at a situation in which Israel did something deeply painful on many levels showed I sink think tremendous courage in taking that risk. It was a risk that I supported at the time. Although I will be honest I regret doing so. In retrospect And received in return regime still supported by the population there at large that took every ounce of goodwill the international community and Israel would give it and translated into a murderous hatred now right. Ben Shapiro did the disengagement so that you could say those Oh sentences X. number of years later it was shown it did this. It was a right wing tactic. The disengagement wasn't a model for Oslo or any other peace process it was heat. Not Not coup was an unplugging but obviously pulling out so sleeps through if we created US Louis working right until Robin was assassinated and then NPC was elected. But then you had it was it was working okay Camp David is a anyone who's on the left who doesn't acknowledge Yasser Arafat's role in bringing about the destruction of the Palestinian people doesn't know their history. Everyone on the left needs to own that and very few of us do an Amazon is only slightly lately behind better before. BB screwed him over so many times. But anyway that's a detail but the what happened in Gaza was is not a model for how to help. Moderates moderates thrive right. There needs to be serious investment can be little economic growth and having a better job but actually if you track that would there be. A trump is phenomenon if there weren't a disenfranchise franchise white working class. I I get the anywhere in the somewheres. That's also a reflection on brexit. It's a reflection on Russia. It's a reflection on on trump this trumpism in America. It's Brazil the Philippines. Any this whole this whole revanchist. Nationalism is in part about that and to me they looming conflict of the twentieth century. Though is climate refugees. I mean there could be up to half a billion people leaving Bangladesh people of Color Brown people migrating to to places that have not been particularly hospitable by the way those are not mutually. That's right you're right. We could have our war and fight here for exactly and and so to to me. The what we're seeing now is just a pre shock if that's a word whatever. The tremor is before the earthquake you know when we see just a little bit of migration from Mexico and from the middle at least Middle East into Europe Mexico United States look at what's happened look at the nationalism. That's reared its head is about to see the real and now we're going to see the real in twenty thirty maybe ten years and it's is terrifying to contemplate that but maybe that was an aside again for me. My question to you and I knew we wouldn't get past the first one is just squaring that with a real spirituality. If you're having a if you're having an experience on a I don't know if you WanNa talk about. Which medicine is your medicine of choice? But if you're having having a psychedelic experience on your medicine of choice and the heart is open and you you feel your own pain. That's there and you know you've uh unusual life you know like you know with family stuff and and I I have to not as unusual as yours and we feel that and we know what suffering is we know what pain is. I just well. I think that that sincerely I think the thing that separates us from the the shall we say from the worst angels of our respective political sides to the extent that we each still feel at home in these political sides which is is less and less and less with every passing day right. It's it's precisely the refusal to let go of this realization right. It's a refusal to let go of this pain which which is why. I am not willing to overrule or or sort of disregard the possibility that one day a conditions wins in the Palestinian Authority will chain by the way I believe very firmly that they must change from within. I don't think it's Israel's job or the international community are anyone's job to tell anyone nation Russian how to navigate a negotiated fares. But I'm very open to the idea and in fact somewhat hopeful that this is a conundrum. I'll have to face one day that the Palestinians would and indeed Come to some sort of realization that they have a very specific path that is significantly different than the path that they have taken or that their leaders taken too many times in the past Arafat and Abbas and for whatever reason and come to to negotiate or to kind of approach Israel in different weight if that happens. I'm not going to tell you under. No circumstances will support Xyz. I'm very open to it. There's there's no donald question in my mind that'd be like what I would actually really want to let has any oppressed population like done that evolution. I mean it's like these guys are living under daily L. Humiliation and at best humiliation you know at best inconvenience when you have to wait three hours to get from Ramallah true slum like that's the easy stuff let alone. You know you're living you know. We both have young children right. I mean you know in your own. Home isn't actually secure. Because there's a a police force Sir military force that is not accountable to you in any way that is even an. I'm doing this by. The way describes also the Palestinian authorities government which is well. At least I. I want to go down that path. Yes they're not great at least there's some mechanism of accountability. At least there's some semblance of democracy here twelve over the fact Google so it can set that one aside I just at the end of the day no matter anything else I come back to just the existential reality on the ground and the condition that you've set for changing that is so high I can't think of another population in the world that's been asked to do as much has your asking this subjugated choosy you'll have and the level of Roger Westervelt since since sixty seven certainly the level I'm talking like pre stage bright on since I've been talking about like what's happening kind of now wish the general last few decades. There's just I still what I'm hearing as the answer to the question of. How do you square the spiritual peace with the suffering piece? Is this sucks but life is. It's tough because sometimes two groups really just can't work it out and so I'm gonNA choose my group. I guess my reading of history as well as my emotional emotional orientation refused six. I don't believe it does not matter for your freeze to accept refused to accept implies that part of me knows that's true that life is nasty. Brutish and short and groups groups have to stick together and stick up from themselves might team versus your team. I just don't believe that that's true at all. I'm definitely that's attractive. There's definitely there's definitely part heart of human nature that can go in that direction But I don't believe that that's the only part of human nature if I did God had I mean. I certainly wouldn't be teaching meditation for Living. Which is what I'm doing with my my time now but I I also I don't know just that's an incredibly despairing point of view I guess is what I can say? Is that in America. We narrowly had Thai election. The last time and one person believed exactly what you said. The other person didn't your guy one I know you're not a trump supporter or at least you haven't been but the guy who said what you've just said. which is the sort of standard nationalist ethnic nationalist line that that we have to stick together in our group type and we're fighting other groups that guys who's winning? I mean come on. Paris said you know we're living in the smoking or the non-smoking section. Look who your who's who's living I want I want to. I want to interject here because I actually don't think that I agreed with half of what he said. Yes I feel very strongly. Were living in this. This tribal reality psychedelics and open up to like that. Let me let me know I interrupted I if that is is a workable. Hey we're not going to. I'm not going to be able to pick up the kids in school for the next eighteen hours dripping acid. No but but what I wanted to so you like that. I actually feel. It's being a little bit unfair because I think for me I'll tell the story this way There's there's a an amazing book by. Vassily Grossman who absolutely love. Once he wrote. Life and fate The Soviets took great kind of Battle Stalingrad the novel The Soviets took it away because it was propaganda was actually art And he was devastated. It was his life's work and as a consolation price. They gave him a trip to Armenia under the auspices of translating some Armenian poder another But basically just kind of keep him happy because he was internationally renowned writer. And so this Lapsed Jew An Avid Communist who at that point had seen the Holocaust and and was among the first to arrive camp after liberation but also seen the devastation of of of Stalin. Right Arrives in Armenia. Menia completed conflicted And for the first three quarters of the book he so busy basically saying look fucking peasants. Look at these primitive of tribal assholes any talking about their meanings but it's really clear that he's talking about the truth is he's talking about himself like all the self hatred is coming. I'd that'd be like can you believe these peasants and the things that they do and all these rituals that are so ancient stupid and then there's a moment comes towards right right at the end of the book where he's attending a wedding and he sits at the small hall and it's like it's very borat issue moment. The way describes people is like a donkey outside and people drink think at some point someone reveals to the to the celebrants that that that Christmas Aaron that he's Jewish and the music stops it's like in this like screeching cinematic moment and every single one of them gets up and makes his toast about how much they appreciate Jewish history. I much appreciate Jewish resilience. And they're standing. In the face of suffering and their commitment to you know the ideas that are propelled him forward Cetera Cetera and Grossman completely breaks down. Because because he understands now What I would say is the absolute beating heart of my nationalism right? which is the idea that if you actually do we have any hope to truly connect to other people? You can't do it on some universal pieces like hey manual hyun because he said reality keeps getting away at some. Some point is going to be a war. You could only do it by saying look. I am a very very proud member of this trip. I am obeying the rules of this tribe. I'm supporting the people of this tribe as such knowing my affiliations Mike Connections. It's very easy for me to open the heart and empathize with you. Because why wouldn't you be feeling exactly what I'm feeling see see. Also let's do the Reductio ad Larum took us a while to get the headlines. I mean what is different. How do we differentiate she had good nationalisms from bed? Is it just the fact that mine com factually wasn't true that the Jews were bringing about war destroying journalism a journalism. That's just factually. Not True that the Jews were were bringing about war and destroying Germany. I mean or or because the Germans were defending themselves they're nationalism or like like contemporary Hindu nationalism in India rounding up Muslims or Buddhists nationalism in Myanmar killing Muslims massacring Muslims the Buddhists and the Buddhist extremists and Marseille. Exactly what you're saying like we're a small group fighting for our own survival and here come these bad just so happen to be Muslims but and I mean it's a terrifying world like yeah. It's nice to go to a wedding fancy costumes. But when it turns to the Armenians versus the other by Janis and bitter conflicts. Actually I think a little dose of other groups are valuable to might be a good idea. It's by by the way this podcast. Four and a half years to get to the nagorno-karabakh conflict out time. But but you know what. Let let let let me attempt to kind of maybe. A return to spirituality virtuality among the many things that puzzle me and continue to puzzle me about tradition. Is this notion of the promised. Land right there seemed to it. Be a disconnect between the instrument of chosen this and the insistence on on geographical presence You know here we are at the foothills of the mountain. Gods says unto US you'll be unto me kingdom of priests a holy nation and you would think if if that really cryptic and and you know short on details tails designation is really to work best. Let's take these people Disperse them so that every corner affected missionaries Right may we have a it's not missionaries right. It doesn't really matter what everybody else is doing right. But if you have a sort of a a holy essence since of of divine election it makes sense session but organizational standpoint to put a few view in every corner of the world so that your light may shine bright right in these particular corners that everyone may see you in their midst instead the insistence is go to the specific country. Show nations how it's done in real life have a real presence here on earth build a society. That's more just not as a heaven the idea that let's discuss social justice but build a country. That's actually actually nice to foreigners right build a country that's actually nice to starving people really left wing right now. I mean this is like this. Modern this thanks modern Israel. The greatest feel Husham ever which is kind of how I see it. You know you really. Yeah I really. I can't think of anything. Here's here's a book. I can't can't think of anything turning people off of Judaism and the Jewish experiment more than the current is really racist government of it's just the and the level. It's not just the Palestinians but like you know this because when you were growing up there wasn't this level of St Racism that there is now it's like the whole country's run by Tarya Russia. Lime fans I mean. It's it's just see I would say the opposite. When I was growing up? He was worse way. Worse than we could have another podcast on that because that I could actually learn from you just things here in Baton Games when I was you know eleven or twelve are out here now. Oh no no no I mean it seems anyway. I don't WANNA I don't WANNA go down. This site side said bar although it's a very interesting Now I just was so ironic when you were describing what that vision of being a nation of priests in the Promised Land by building a just society. It doesn't pass the laugh off test when looked at by outside our no matter. Israel's real accomplishments and liberal democracy which includes being nice to gays and Trans people too but regardless artless of all of those got America also has its original sins right of slavery and slaughter of Indigenous People. Israel's original sin is like external right in front of us. It's still happening of America's too but in a different way right. Israel's is still happening and to hear you. You know you really did just to me. Preach a really. left-wing argument like here's this divine mandate to build a just society where you know following Exodus You know we don't oppress the widow and the orphan and we don't oppress the foreigner because we knew we were foreigners and hear all these foreigners who were living in the land gear. Shafts may be you know people strangers. There's living in the land non Jews living in the Jewish state let alone Judea and Samaria. I mean just biblical Israel and we've done a pretty shitty job. I mean we have like I don't need to use the word. Apartheid probably hurts more than it helps but like certainly unequal standards of infrastructure education. Everything job opportunities tolerated discrimination nation. That's just within Green Line Israel. Let alone what's happening to justify the check for ten bucks every month from the Barack conglomerate worldwide. I got mine from the pink washers great said so nice. I deposited every day together. We earn twenty bucks collectively. I would say that while you would have to be completely blind not to admit Israel being let us remember seventy years old. which is you you know a a moment? And a half in world historical time has its share of challenges. Some of which. It's meeting a very well. Some of which is meeting not not. Well I I could point to a whole host of stories that make me Frankly giddy from the fact that the sole female Sharia Daria Court judge on Earth resides in Israel to the fact that the population of Israel Arabs in higher education is larger per. They're part of the population than the Jewish population in higher education. Too The fact that here's a country that absorbed a tremendous amount of people who come from very different backgrounds necessities etc and figure out a way to gradually an imperfectly Build a home there of fall them to the treatment of gays and Trans People. In a country that is still very traditionally religious. These are not minor accomplishments accomplishments to me. No and I'm not. I'm not so far on the leftist to s to be ignorant of those things or to say that you as you joke that it's I mean and it is used up but I but they're real but it just but I really I guess I don't know maybe it's colored by the bubble in which I live. which is kind of like the Brooklyn Oakland Queer bubble and it's definitely a bubble? It's not representative of anything larger than what it is. You're not even at home that bubble. This is what kills no even have the comfort of guy. But that's okay. Is it though. Yeah I've been that way my whole life. I always wanted one guru one teacher one community. I gave that up about twenty years ago. It just isn't me. I don't want that there's just I lo- I love being an intellectual drag queen. I love it. It's who I am. I I am like you know after this. I'm going to the office of ten percent happier the meditation APP work now. And I'M JUST GOING TO BE MR mindfulness. And that's what I'm going to be that person I love being that person and then I'll be Mr Dad when I'm with you know I get I get read a certain way when I'm walking with my daughter in the park on the street and that's fun I don't I I maybe that's to me to me what I was hoping what I what I think. And there's no part of us that still wishes you could get back to that feeling. You had first the second day in in power desks where everyone is just quivering with real Guinot devotion. Yeah it's just not truthful even even at that moment. I was in the closet at that time I was also cutting off other parts of myself like the second hooked part for example like. Where was that part? That part was in there So even at that moment that shows that that required a sort of delusion on my side to to closet certain parts of myself so even then do I miss that kind of belonging. I still get that a little bit. in radical fairy spaces or other sort of radical queer spaces But I did just want the thought I was going was just what you what you said about the light unto the nations in a country. That's just maybe it's just the husband problem but that literally wouldn't pass the leftist like it would literally be laughed at and it's not because those people are anti Semitic they're my friends. A lot of them are Jewish It's because there's like the elephant in the room there is no US ally let alone the leading recipient of US foreign aid. That's treating such a large number for people like this. You'd have to go to our strategic adversaries like China to look at places which are which are trampling on human rights. The way that Israel is. It's just not I get it I get I get all the good stuff. It's a paradox. Israel's complicated it's always been complicated but the the the original sin Elfin Room. Whatever metaphor is helpful is just so present and it's so real there's people there's just bleeding heart liberals or call bleeding heart for reason like I think it's good to have the heartbreak and I think again back to my thing? Twenty minutes ago about being security Zionist if a security Zionist honest look at the injustices and inequities of the occupation and and really their heart breaks and then they say I just I but still it would it would endanger more lives to take a step forward. I can sort of be on board with that position but the heart really has to break. I like there has to really. It's it's like being a compassionate Conservative if somebody really looks at at racial disparities in prosecutorial discretion and sentencing and NC's mass incarceration and sees rates police violence and sees all of the stuff that the American experiment has failed at and still says still market mechanisms small government fine as long as their heart breaks. I I just WanNa make sure your heart's breaking before you see this is this. Is I think such an important point because as I often feel that attempting. Let's leave Israel aside for a moment we've given that we've given it a good run but And then I want to ask you a question about the book. I often feel that when speaking about domestic issues. You could come as someone who doesn't necessarily leash share current Contemporary Progressive Dogmas. And say. Look this is actually one of the things that pains me the most. I just don't think that your way of getting there is a way of getting there. I for example seeing that a better when I'm trying to think of an example that that would be about welfare. Let's let Medicare for all four education for example. I look it. enrages me to no end to think that sending my children to a very expensive Manhattan Day school and being able to do it because I have the privilege and and the choice to send my kids wherever damp lease it breaks my heart and not just that it infuriates me to think that every that not every repaired in the city has the same good fortune. And so what I want is I basically want everyone else out there to enjoy precisely early the kind of wealth opportunities that I enjoy. How do we get there? Well you know some people would say. Let's fortify the public education system. Other other people would say well you know maybe we should look at other options. What is kind of deeply alienating? To me. And what has greatly facilitated a my political journey journey to see nothing on my spiritual journey. Because I think they're separate at at some in some respects is the fact that once you say this then to many of my of my ex friends. Let's call them that on the left would say well if you really believed that you'd believe X.. No no that's actually now those people blur dump right but plenty. They are plentiful on your right and this is why are politically homeless. Because you just keep looking around back when compassionate Conservative was actually the phrase with with George W Bush. You know you look around at. WHO's really voting on the right side on the politically right wing side of these issues? So let's so you're let's say you're for you didn't say for school choice. Let's just make up a thing in which you are for muscle one hundred percent makes it more convenient okay. So you're for school choice but then you look around at the other people who are for school choice and they're not coming there for the reason that you're they're they're coming there for like weird. Sectarian religious reasons a huge percentage of them actually are racist like a lot of some of them. Just don't really they just want to start the public school system. So you're you're bedfellows. Then I mean it's not your should i. Yeah Yeah because you you just look around so I get that. This is like the libertarian crisis. That almost almost every libertarian front. I know has right because they share opinions with people who they really `love but they're sure their opinions are right and so I just also look closely at like what are the consequences of these actions. School choice like feels like one of those things. That's good on paper but when you actually look at the consequences is what the bad people want. Not what you want what. The bad people want is to take money away from public schools and funnel at into Christian private school. Leave me if I if I tell you that the the phrase bad people is entirely foreign to me and I mean this various religious ideologues who WanNa starve public school and just enrich their security institutions. Where but here's this? I don't see anyone who's necessarily different than me. Even and people are different than me in in in radical ways that like shock my sensibilities and offend me like. I don't see them as a surly bad. See them as people who have maybe different interests different different here. I mean I think what I if we really want. I was being flip if we really wanted to go into it. I do see them as bad because I see them as being in profoundly cutoff slash insensitive to the needs of like millions of kids who would really suffer suffer if they're theocratic vision would be implemented but I'm not going to die on that hill I was I was being flip about it My main point was just to kind of Z.. And again I think this is a quintessential sort of libertarian problem. Where you agree with people? You disagree with You know so on school choice in in particular if we were kind of just. I think it's a fact question if I really could be persuaded that a thousand flowers bloom. And there'd be these wonderful private slash but independent pendant not theocratic schools. That would that would do a great job of education and would actually level the playing field and would solve some of the endemic problems of the public schools across the country. I actually would be on board. I'm not a fundamentalist for public education but education is not my field some a little out of my depth here but everything. I've read Long-form Long-form researchy nerdy things that I've read suggests that that's not the case that Religious Christian religious institutions are doing a really poor job of teaching stem right and certainly of teaching like things like evolution but even just regular science technology at Cetera That actually they're not. They're not creating the kinds of values that promote civic society. They're creating certain kinds of Christian values which they WANNA promote and so taking away public schools rules which seemed to be a little do a little bit better at some of those democratic goals. But I'm purely seems like it seems like a bad idea to take money away from them but I'm purely consequentialist on that if I could inhabit your dream utopia world In which school choice would lead to good outcomes. I before I guess what I'm pushing you on. Is that that maybe a better example has to do with the tax code and like economic libertarianism. Like do you don't do. Does Coke Industries really have the wellbeing of everybody in mind. Charles Cooke said so just a long interview with Tim. FERRISS on the PODCAST. which you might find interesting? You know he really believes they're sort of an opportunity. Society and government McGovern's specimen governs least. But there's no data that supports that like when you actually look at the impacts of slashing the social safety net yet you slash the social safety net and more people get sick like it doesn't actually work that way and of course there's some conservatives are right about some things on the facts and I'm totally on board with that but then they wanna slash the estate tax which. I don't know where you were on that. But then they wanna just cut cut the top rates on the top point one percent and and make sure that the wealthy don't pay their fair share so all of these kind of bleeding heart bread bread and butter issues. You know. I just look at what the age the motivations nations of your bedfellows and be the consequences of these policies And I think that makes you again lonelier still yeah no you're right I mean. I think the loneliest. Most I think the thing we have maybe the most in common. We don't have a lot of friends left. I I think we stick children. No actually a lot of friends. I do have a lot of friends who were really supportive and and are great and I actually agree with the most. I think where we have the most in common is where I have to run up against the the woke left in firsthand way you write about the book left a lot. I don't know maybe you do actually have to. I get it and it's tough. It's really tough. Luckily the woke right. Or the the the right for the RNC right right and woke woke right or the Jews who think that everything is Anti Semitic did you follow you. Following the Barbie death camp story at burning man. There's a there's a am very happy to say I have. I've no idea what you're talking about here you go. Let's see let's do it in real time. I don't know how much what gets edited in or left in our time but Burning man camp whose art installation on the camp is called Barbie be death camp. It's hilarious. They've been there for twenty years. Run by Jewish guy. And it's a bunch of Barbie dolls going into a big love. It pick the the pissed pissed so the free speech Libertarian. So you're GONNA like it. The deal doesn't want it shut down. It's like funny right. It's hilarious so and they actually. It's it's called the Barbie death camp and wind bistro and their wine is terrible and really cheap like three bucks chuck type wine and you go and have some wine and cheese and you're surrounded by barbies and various states of disarray. There was actually believe it or not. I don't know whether this counts is left wing or right wing violence. At burning man. People took pictures of it. They said they threatened to the guy. WHO's Jewish Jewish guy runs? The key is the main guy in the camp for twenty years. We're going to send this to you have to take this down. This is offensive by the way the that the threat is we're GONNA ad L. and they did and the AD L. has put out a condemning statement and right now on facebook. Oh No not a statement. A A statement a Weird Group of friends who are like so. Is this left or right. I think it's left-wing woke but it's an anti Semitism which makes it kind line of right wing woke so anyway I I live in that world and and That sucks that's when I feel lonely is when I swim in the world of the idolatry daltry of being offended that being offended gives you a moral status so take us take us home on a very hopeful note by telling us about the book to book. The book is called Enlightenment by trial and error. Subtitle is ten years. The slippery slopes of Jewish spirituality postmodern Buddhism and other mystical heresies and it is a record of my spiritual coming of age. What let me ask you this? The hopeful thing the imagine the reader imagine for me reader. Who's who's going to read it now and and kind of find their the sort of comfort I took you know two or three? I would've loved to have read this book when I was you know. Thirty or twenty eight. And and seeking seeking in a serious way And you know. There's definitely spirituality like it was funny. Culture religion like a loaded word spirituality is like even worse. It's just connotes. All of the worst of like alternative. Go to disaster real. I try to say template of practice because at least it's just a word that isn't spirituality. It has nothing to do with my love of the word contempt of. It's just not but serious. Virtually for me is the most important thing that I do in my life. You know next to my family of course but like in terms of it's it's been at the center of my life for for thirty years and maybe some wired that way you know. I've sat five months and silent. Meditation Retreat I've done I look plenty of Iowa Ska ceremonies and other more stronger other more stronger Medicines as well I've done a lot of Jewish stuff which we talked about. It's just it's just what I love. I don't think it's essential for everyone. I don't think it's the most important thing. Some people really like golf. For whatever reason I really like contemporary ampler practice and I know that there's five or six listeners out there probably that's the right number who are the same way and I've written it for you. I've written it for a small audience of people who would love to see how one person fell out of sync with so much and into to sync with so much other stuff. A lot of attracts what we've been talking about. There was a lot of that alien nation from Jewish particularism. That's in part two of the book A lot of the stuff is more more sort of traditionally mystical having peak experiences over and over and over again Death experiences near death experiences and profound awakening experiences. So you know. This is the third book in a row that I've written for a small number of people who I hope will truly love it as we say needed in Sheila. Thank you so much. This was fun while that was Jay Michaelson. Lebron having a conversation last August in the relic studios in if you have comments and I bet a lot of you do send them to unorthodox tablet MAG DOT COM or. Leave us a message. Nine one four five seventy four eight six nine. The episode was produced as ever by Dot Cross and our thanks to the engineers at the relic room. We'll be back next week with more of Mealy Allen Stephanie. Being much less the profound this is amazing. I think we should have like another Yeah we had more you know to our. You really dodged my question. No no but you sit. You hinted at the end to pass a separate which maybe that's what do you mean your spiritual politically cetera separate. It was a throwaway line almost completely for weekly to me. Yeah I think that's the key and I had this like this conversation in Cape Cod with friends who were vacationing with us. And along the same lines I try to tell him. I have this crazy shit that revolves around the promise of economic populism. I think a lot out of the trump world could actually be converted to specific policies. That I love a lot. Which is why I go under shows like all the time here and enter enter Yang supporter? You just don't know it yet. I'm married Williamson supporter. If I had to pick one I know I know. Look shake but the right things but she talks on language that no one understands. They think it's witchcraft. Literal Israel witchcraft. Like they actually think this we have to. You always have to adapt your teaching into the language. A person can stand but but the thing that my friend said like you speak as though morality has no place in politics and I said to an extent. Actually think that's correct. Yeah that's that we should have have done that. I'm like what I want. Is I want results that bring as many people as possible as good an outcome differences. I I don't care about anything else frank. That and the group's thing I I actually held back a little bit in the podcast because I just think nationalisms almost entirely really bad right. Yeah almost entirely. Great Yeah I think that's probably and I think that's what in my distorts I think. That's what color is your read on the L. Hunters of the world. And and why. I think you're almost always wrong about those and I I'm always almost two sides. The actually as simple as that to me their enemies in my people I see the position. Just come out and say that more clearly because I think tribal I think you're deeply wrong about that and I think they having met some of those people they're just not like maybe on subconscious weird level. But if you actually set sir I haven't met Ilana Illinois Mar but you know if you sit with a OC for example you'll just see that. She's she's just not. She has deep critiques of what the the State of Israel doing she's got lots of Jews and our social circles. She doesn't hate the Jewish people she doesn't want to destroy the Jewish people or the Jewish state even Ilan Omar probably doesn't want to destroy the Jewish state. Oh there there's a fact question but so I think you're just wrong on the facts and I think you're wrong enough but I don't know if you care that you're wrong on the facts because I think you see this as this like pitched battle and our side it's a life or death battle on ours has to blinn fit fitto. I don't know that I would necessarily say

Israel Jay Michaelson Israel Palestine Mark Oppenheimer Leah Betts Hebrew University Hillary Clinton Leonard Cohen Europe partner Jakko Franck Jacob Frank Jaka Franck Liles One Jerusalem Gary Johnson Brooklyn Kabul L. A. Yoni Netanyahu Entebbe
Settling in: Israel-Palestine policy

The Economist: The Intelligence

22:27 min | 1 year ago

Settling in: Israel-Palestine policy

"Introducing the capital one walmart rewards card earn five percent back at Walmart online games for the kids headphones for Dad. A laptop. For Mom doesn't matter you get five percent back at Walmart online. You'll also earn two percent at Walmart store restaurants and travel and one percent everywhere else when you want all that you need the capital one Walmart rewards card. What's in your wallet? Terms exclusions apply capital one a Hello and welcome to the intelligence on economist. Radio I'm your host Jason Palmer. Every weekday we provide a fresh perspective on the events is cheap in your world ahead of Britain's general election next month. The two main parties leaders met for a televised televised debate last night. The format left room for little more than can freeze and the question of trust in the Prime Minister became literally a laughing matter. DOC and the world bars and supermarkets are bursting with new brands of Gin many of which tout inspiration from India but until recently only only the rock. That stuff was made there now. Some upmarket brands are proving to be talk to the country's booze industry. I up though on Monday Dan. America's Secretary of State Mike pompeo announced a major policy reversal. This tablet of Israeli civilians settlements in the West Bank is is not per se inconsistent with international law. This could have big consequences for Israel's conflict with the Palestinians. The hard truth is there. There will never be a judicial resolution to the conflict and arguments about who is right and wrong as a matter of international law will not bring these over the past half century. Israel has built hundreds of settlements or Jewish enclaves on the land it captured from Jordan in the Six Day War of nineteen sixty seven seven. This land claimed by Palestinians for their future state which is why settlements are seen by many as an obstacle to peace the president of over four hundred thousand Israeli settlers living in the West Bank basically means that a Palestinian state cannot come into being is our Israel correspondent respondent Mason Jerusalem. Many of those settlements are stuck in between the main Estonian cities and towns so contiguous state cannot exist as long as they're there and their presence also means that it was obvious that so in effect they ensure that the military occupation of the Westbank continues the the announcement came just ahead of a key date in Israel. Today is the deadline for opposition leader. Benny Ganz to build coalition bowling. September's inconclusive election Prime Minister Benjamin. Netanyahu has already failed to form a government. Both candidates praised the trump administration's change in policy but the decision was America at odds with much of the international community. The international consensus regarding the settlements has been there in contravention of the full Geneva Convention. Attention which basically says that transfer or settlement of an occupied territory by the occupying power is against international law. And that's been the interpretation Shen of the Geneva Convention regarding Israeli settlements by most of the leading legal experts. There are some dissenting views of. Israel clings to those dissenting ending views in building the settlements. But that's been the broad consensus for decades now and so in that sense Mike Pompeo's announcement came as something of surprise. Well the competitive management didn't come as a surprise because certain elements within the administration were very pro Israel and pro the settlement lobby chief among them the US ambassador to Israel. Israel David Friedman who before becoming a master was both trump's bankruptcy la and financial backer of the settlements. They have been trying for the past three years to get a clear statement out of the administration saying that American doesn't see the settlements as being illegal and it has to be noted that in the past also the Reagan administration. Distraction made similar statements. So it hasn't always been one hundred percent clear what the American position on this has been. US public statements on settlement activities. In the West Bank have been inconsistent over decades in one thousand nine hundred seventy eight. The Carter Administration categorically concluded that Israel's establishment of civilian settlements was inconsistent with international law. However in Nineteen eighty-one president? Reagan disagreed with that conclusion. And stated that he didn't believe that the settlements were inherently l.. Legal actually most of the American administration's haven't even talked about the legality. They've called the settlements an obstacle to peace instead of diving into this rather controversial legal question so in a sense this kind of puts a finer point on kind of formalizes. Something that from the American standpoint had been kind of informally the case. What has been the case over the past three years? Because the trump administration had been very ambivalent towards the Israeli settlement activity previous administrations had condemned settlements especially the first Bush administration tried to limit funding to Israel while the tantamount building was going on the trump administration and some of its representatives have been much more friendly towards the past two years. The trump administration has made a series of statements and actions regarding the Israel Palestine conflict back in December seventeen nineteen. They announced that they recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital that in a few minutes later move the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. A few months ago we had the recognition of Israeli sovereignty over the occupied Golan Heights. And in between these. We've had a number of steps. Was the Palestinians. We had cutting off of aid various Palestinian agencies to the United Nations nations agency which works with Palestinian refugees the closure of the Palestinian mission in Washington. All these things have put out a very clear signal where the trump administration restauration stands in the conflict. And even the timing of this announcement just a couple of days before the deadline for Bennigan's to form a government. Do you think it's connected to the current political the turmoil in Israel not directly connected to the current political situation for two reasons festival. It hasn't been times as some of the previous gestures were to help Out On the eve of an election other convenient junctures it doesn't seem to have been closely coordinating with Israeli government. That seems to have been something. which was it was very much an internal decision of administration? And do you think it's significant that it was Mr Pompeo who made the announcement. Well that's probably more about American politics in parents trying to show that he's not trump in many ways and loyal to some of trump's closest advisers. I think pump is also looking beyond the horizon of the trump trump administration and shoring up his own political bias. Perhaps his own run for the White House and this is a popular move among voters who he would also be relying upon one day if he runs for the candidacy and for the White House himself and now that Mr Pompeo has made this policy reversal. What do you think the immediate impact will be the speaking? Both Israeli officials Palestinians. No one's expecting an immediate impact even though they've been promises by Netanya before the last two election campaigns of going even further annexing parts of the West Bank. All those plans on hold because it doesn't a political deadlock there's no coalition in Israel. We have Netanyahu position bet against both failing instigate a majority Israel has been building settlements or the past fifty years regardless of what the administration positions being and on the Palestinian side. They've lost lost hope in anything. Good for them coming out. The trump administration long ago so for that. This wasn't a surprise. And they're facing their daily challenges whatever someone is saying in Washington it material to them but what about the prospects for grander scale change for the notion of annexation or in the other direction a meaningful peace process so the impact is perhaps lung It won't change anything the next few weeks and months. But when finally new government is formed in Israel. If it's a right wing government then the impetus to go ahead and AMEX parts. What's the West Bank will increase? Because now they seem to have a green light from the administration and even if the new government will be more central government under Benny Gansel some other interests lita. Yep It'll be much more difficult for them to justify so these ready public making any kind of changes on the ground baptists manning so because people will say them but the Americans okay so why make any of these changes if the settlements especially the ones which are deep within the West Bank or allowed to continue to grow that means the majority patient won't end either and any prospect of Palestinian statehood will be non-existent loop Israel basically in charge of one st with millions of Palestinians without optical rights and that's not the democratic say that Israel claims and takes pride in being so it's a situation which really is ready to have a solution Lucien right now and if anything compare announcement has made a solution for that even more remote actual thank you very much for joining us. Thank you ever heard of lab grown diamonds if not. We've got you. After thousands of hours perfecting the science lightboxes here to shed some light. Here's how it works lab. Grown diamonds are chemically the same natural ones just made in a lab to make them they use a plasma reactor to heat tiny pieces of lab grown diamonds up to temperatures almost as hot as the Sun John in about two weeks. Those little seeds turned into full carat stones. Light box has perfected the process to consistently create are gorgeous gems. Now here's where it gets. It's really interesting light box lab. Grown diamonds aren't just made the same every time they're also priced the same. Each carrot is eight hundred dollars. Mind blown so there you have it. Get the facts. And see the science behind the sparkle at light box jewelry dot com slash intelligence use code intelligence for twenty five dollars off last night. Britain's Prime Minister Boris Johnson went head to head in a televised debate on. It with his main rival. Jeremy Corbett. There'll be an election in just over three weeks called by Mr Johnson in an effort to resolve an impasse after he failed to persuade parliament to approve his brexit deal. Mr Corbin's Labor Party pitching itself as an agent of change Labor. We'll put wealth and power in the hands of the many Boris Johnson's conservatives who think that born to rule will only ever look after the privileged few Mister Johnson as promised to to leave the European Union as quickly as possible appealing to British public puts keen to move past the divisive issue of Brexit. If I come back here where they working majority in parliament then I will get parliament working again for you on day. One of the new parliament in December we will start getting our deal through so we can get brexit done. In January analyst countries potential. Neither man is especially popular nick. Mister Johnson's Conservative Party is leading in the polls. That's despite questions over his personal life which were raised again this week when businesswoman Jennifer or curate spoke to I tv about her relationship with him and I don't understand why you've blocked me and ignored me. An investigation is ongoing related to Mister Johnson's relationship with Missouri. When he was mayor of London he's denied wrongdoing? This week is curie alleged. That Mister Johnson had a child who he's kept secret but the debate steered largely clear of Oh choppy waters. British people have had some great TV. Recently I'm not just the Cran Dan but Prince Andrew's extraordinary interview with the BBC. This was not drama in that class. Emma Duncan is on our Britain team and was somewhat less than transfixed. Last night's debates. The format wasn't great. The participants were given such short term. Basically they mostly strung together a few stoke phrases said. Nobody was was on the edge of their seats during this debate. We'll we'll how did it start. How did Each of these candidates sort of set set off their their stole opening statements. Corbin essentially was saying on the vote for change and Johnson essentially was saying Kuban is the vote for continued horrific long-drawn-out uncertainty about brexit. And I am the gate brexit done. Vote suit it was slightly. Where in the sense that Kuban did a very competently learned statement? Straight to camera. Johnson was reading from a piece of the paper and given that he's got a reputation for laziness disorganization. That probably wasn't a great move and the defining issue for this election is inevitably brexit. Do you do you think that either one of the candidates performed better than the other. Yea On that one Johnson clearly performed better He's gone. It's very very very clear. Line which is vote for me and you will get brexit done get brexit damage what he kept saying during the debate somewhat to the audiences irritation Kubin did very badly on that in the sense. That Labor's policy is to renegotiate the deal. It's already been negotiated twice. We will have a referendum will abide by that result and after that to put the resulting deal you back to the country to another referendum and that firstly sand a bit exhausting to a country that is already fit up with this process. Secondly he wouldn't say how he would campaign in that referendum and Corbin is trying to conceal the void in the heart of his brexit policy and refusing to answer the question of which side Johnson pointed head. He's leaving open the possibility that he negotiates deal with the European Union and then campaigns against it which does send faintly ridiculous and there's another referendum issue to which again Johnson successfully prodded him on. which is that? Nobody thinks that Labor's GonNa get an overall majority one way that cool been could get into downing. Street is by doing a deal with the Scottish Nationalist Party. But the price of that deal would be the promise of another referendum referendum on Scottish independence and Kuban refused to rule that I'd say he sounded a bit shifty on both cans. Well Mr Johnson has a very well well known controversial personal life and career and in fact this week there have been stories coming out about a relationship. He had with an American businesswoman When he was mayor of London were any of those details explore during a debate? Not Really I mean it could have been worse for Johnson in the sense that some people were expecting getting a bold question Mr Johnson. How many children do you have because nobody really knows but no specifics were brought up and and there was quite a good moment which did demonstrate what the audience and the nation at large fields about Mitt willingness to trust Mr the Johnson when he said something along the lines of of truth Nashes to me and the audience laughed? And on Mr Corbin's parts. Did he score any sort of direct hits. Yeah he did on the National Health Service but really he had to. I mean attis Labor's home turf. Labor create the National Health Service. The tours I've been in power long enough to have to take responsibility for the strains that it's under at the moment through underfunding. Mr Cogan brought with with him a documents which he waved around we had lots and lots of black lines on it because it's been so redacted which he said was an account British negotiations Sion's with the Americans and there's a particularly sensitive point as far as the NHS and the USA is concerned? The left is is convinced that Britain. If it's run by the Tories will basically Opened the NHS to private American health companies and thus destroy the system. The country say loves so all told. What's what's your view? Did anyone win this debate. Will this debate make a difference to the election action. Do you think well Johnson Johnson. Just one eight. As far as the snap opinion afterwards is concerned it was fifty one forty forty nine to him I would say as of you're yeah he he did he just about one in buying those and he will be pleased with the event because he's on top in the race and he really just had to hold his own Kuban. We'll be disappointed because it could be needed to do something to re regain a foothold really because the numbers are so solidly in the jury's favor commend. Thank you very much for joining us. You're very welcome during the colonial rule of the Indian subcontinent. The British came to love lots of Indian cuisine food and such as Chutney category were adapted for Victorian tastes but perhaps one of the most impactful concoctions of time developed without any Indian culinary influence. The Brits were in India. They were suffering from malaria. Berry Swanson was pretty. Primitive was to drink a lot of tonic and Thomas Adequate bitter taste to it and one one way to cut. It was to put in Jim. Thome Easton is economists. Mumbai Bureau chief. There are so many jains now that have an Indian name tomb. There's Bombay Sapphire cars very very popular. There's even one called Chindia. I mean any province of India probably has our name attached to a Chin but of course there's a great irony Iranian using an Indian name to somehow affected Indian S O of their team. Because the one thing that from all these Jen's really is the none. None of them are made in India. In fact the Jin that is made in India is very very cheap. And it's rumored that most of it goes off to Africa in barrels so the rotgut end and of the market is the only market actually in India. That's almost all of the market. There's some a little bit above that but it's still just a little bit about that. I mean given a choice I would say as a thirty six months ago. No one in India would actually choose as a question of taste or flavor to order any chin that was associated with being made in India but a couple years ago some entrepreneurs several of whom had spent time overseas and seeing the real boom in India came back to India and decided into create. Jin here into still one of the most prominent which had its year anniversary is called stranger and sons. Do you think the trend towards the the high end of the market will reverse the overall national trend as Indians gave up on the cheap stuff. I think what they've discovered it. India is that they can make a product that they really really really like your and so I think demand is going to be very very strong. Why not I mean the rest of the world wanting something is probably indicative of infection I or tastes there are many Indians who travel everywhere and come back? You're liking the same things that people to in Europe and in America. The Big Jim Markets Have Been Barcelona and New York and maybe wandering that it's hard to find a bar in any of those places that doesn't have a multitude of Jin's. There's no reason to expect that that won't be here as well. We haven't seen in these Mugen's any sense. The market is in any way satiated so India June for India at least for a while seems like one Belo's campus things at a time where the rest so the Indian economy is struggling. It may be the one product that has at least at the moment not only real products for growth but actually make people feel good during a very difficult time. What about beyond? India's borders say the popular brands that we we see outside India that kind of trade on India's name and history and so on aren't actually Indian. Am I going to start going into bars. Ars and seeing a a rich variety of Indian you will see a couple. India Jen's are beginning to stranger and sons is beginning to export Starting with Singapore and London didn't and I think that At least one other Indian brand has begun to do that as well so amidst the multitude of Indian S Jains are actually will be real Indians and and the extent that many of these genes do honestly have an India component the so-called pedantic the herbs and the spices and the go into Jin much of that does has come from India. Anyway it's just a exported in kind of a wholesale form but this fully formed India Chin. You'll be able to find it whether people like it. Who knows but I think the success that this has has had they charge roughly the same price here for a stranger and sons bottle as they do for a bottle of any premium imported jen and it seems to have found an audience regardless of price? So there's no reason to believe a won't find some sort of audience elsewhere in the world. Tom Thank you very much for your time. Thank you And that's all for this episode of the intelligence if you like us. Give us a rating on Apple podcasts. And you can subscribe to the economist at economist Dot com slash radio offer twelve issues for twelve dollars for twelve pounds. See you back here. Tomorrow Thank

Israel Prime Minister Boris Johnson India Britain Mike Pompeo West Bank Mr Corbin America London walmart Prime Minister Washington president USA Netanyahu Jason Palmer Brexit Johnson Johnson Kuban India Chin
Bonus Episode 242: Yasmin Khan

Bon Appetit Foodcast

25:49 min | 1 year ago

Bonus Episode 242: Yasmin Khan

"In design for all is in their DNA and with good and gather target is reinventing how we bring food and beverage to the table gooding gathered creates this week's episode of bonds the cast is brought to you by good and gather targets new exclusive grocery brand you know a target is all about accessible value official sweeteners no synthetic colors in no high fructose corn Syrup couldn't gather a new way to eat well every day you way to eat well every day guys okay happy Friday everybody here is Amanda and Yasmin. Yasmin is my love food but it wasn't until I was older when I was around thirty that I decided to make the the the real shift I was working chosen in recipes created with flavor in mind the product assortment offers easy time-saving solutions for busy families good and gather often happens for people working on this quite intense subjects I mean I was working on stuff light deaths following contact with the police or Israel Palestine or the you know the continuing occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan so I mean you know pretty heavy stuff I just ended up having like a classic burn out like I just for a British charity in London I'd been working for nonprofits throughout my twenties for different kinds of human rights campaign groups and you know grandparents were farmers and think anyone who's grown up around fresh produce it just installs in you from such a young age go diagnosed with chronic fatigue which kind of basically leaves you with very little energy to do anything but I could cook and it was during that purser I'm so excited to be talking to you today thank you for being here thank you for having me I love your book Zitouni we had it as part of our book club a few months ago and I read saying they're studying you know treaties and laws it's about as far away as you can get from like the creative intensity of of a kitchen real reverend of I mean definitely vegetables and you know when we were you know my my family would grow rice but then also all kinds of plants they but I think that in a way my you know connection to the food world just started from such a young age because my family okay so I wanted to talk to you first about your own story you have a little bit of a unconventional background for food writer and I'd love to what about it then and I wrote about that and I'm still raving about it I find it just to be Such a great mix of cookbook that also tells a lot of really incredible story when I came back to the UK after that time I suddenly realized I sitting on a treasure trove of recipes and stories that would really enable you know someone in the he's here a little bit about how you found your way to food from was it a law degree that you have to begin with yeah I mean it's about as dry as you can get healing from the illness and recovering the I. Refound my love of food and as part of my time off for my job I do not opportunity to ask them about their lives in the history and and probably the kind of conversations you'd be wanting to have even if there weren't a recorder exactly yeah eh clients and peppers and tomatoes and cucumbers and so you know cooking a meal you know would would very much be about going off getting eggs and getting beans and getting vegetables is what their favorite recipes were and if they would show them to me and while we were cooking together I just stick my iphone down and record what we were saying and and I did like part memoir very much about your own lived experience and then you your second books they tune which which we're talking Fort Welcome Twenty bonus episode of Monty who cast we're lucky to have Yasmin Khan stopped by the offices a few weeks ago so we're airing this extra episode of that I'm getting rice all from the land we had chickens and we had cows soya milk cow like when I was like four years old so I think that's what is back it chronicles or traveled throughout Palestine and tells the stories of people she met and chairs the recipes from those people and if you haven't picked up a copy yet you most certainly should yeah you're still pretty young at that time rate thirty yeah that's pretty young really young but enough time to start a new career yeah absolutely and was already part of my culinary repertoire so when I was thinking about what book to write next you know what motivated me really clearly to write the saffron tales was deep desired going to Iran to spend some time with my grandmother my grandfather recently passed away and and while I was there I set myself this task of asking different family member today is kind of much different in a way because it's not the experience that you grew up with but it's a little bit more of an anthropological look eighteen years ago I remember I e in kind of food and being like wow it's so similar to Persian food but then it's got so many differences and you know food from that region got a region So how is it different to be working on that book after your first one yeah it was it was both weedy different and really similar I mean the opportunity when we were in the kitchen you know chopping onions or you know at an making dumplings is in that region but there's also a lot of beauty of joy and a lot of great food and so you had been going to that region for work previously so that was your first that trend I think the Saffron Tales your first book you wrote out of those stories and recipes from your time in Iran exactly and that was definitely to not only celebrate the incredible culture and Food Iran but also to challenge stereotypes of how people normally perceive Iran and Talk a little bit about how this book is laid out because I think it's really I think it's really interesting and I learned a lot just by reading about the different regions within this region tation for Youtube Day a`managerial editor of healthy ish chatter with Yasmin about her latest cookbook tune which was the pick for the BA cookbook club a couple months of summer whether there's that was like giant watermelons sweet Jami figs incredible like berries I think the Palestinian kitchen another place where I felt I could use food to really share stories of a place I think too often when we see depictions of places asked you know someone like my friends just to kind of get a glimpse of what life in Iran was like and Iran is a place with just like the most incredible Zine which I'm so thrilled in the last is you know he's been getting lots more attention but you know when the Saffron Tales came out you know which is only three years ago that you know it didn't you know it was part of that in community initiatives and it was quite heavy stuff because it's you know region which is just yeah fraught with human rights abuse But the reason I remember it was July region the North region which is the Galilee is perhaps the most traditional Levin teen type foods so you know the the things you might think of along hi it's because I really remember in times off kind of walking through the markets and just it being packed with all this color the color and abundance of Tom Flavored with maybe nutmeg cinema and kind of a warming sweet spices sometimes it can be you know plant based with kind of chick peas and rice and exposure to it and to the cuisine there yeah so I I went in two thousand nine which is about ten years ago and I really remember it clearly because it was July I and n how vastly different styles of food are in a in a area the size of Delaware so small yeah so talk about how you decided to put the both it'd be really common just to have a whole Vegan meal but without any like purposefulness about it was just an abundance of vegetables and I love the is like Palestinian communities either through very narrow political prison or it's because something really bad happened and you know of course there are huge challenges so it was really hot and we was dipping in our meetings with projects that we were going to whether it was visiting olive farming communities or kind of joint and Israeli Palestinian it's on the coast they have lots of fresh seafood perhaps likes him seabream that smothered in a gorgeous like garlic Tahini saw a recipe for that in this book signed so I was really familiar with the place but also the food you know I was really lucky in London like I live incredibly close to the author Langi Cafe so like you know twelve hundred as I mean it was you know the the produce fell so alive and as I often say like in a region that feels like it's dying that just felt so important and you listen in kitchens so I divided the book into different chapters kind of starting kind of in the north of Israel actor in a thread that's run through all of my work over the last eighteen years has been a real love of storytelling and a real understanding that stories is how there is and then just so many stuffed vegetables like stuffed bell peppers stuff eggplants Zucchini stuffed with what kinds of thing yeah stuffed cows the food there reflect that so it's a lot more grilled meats a lot more bread based as opposed to rice so we're kind of thinking about dishes such as oh not only we better understand the world around us but we also better understand ourselves and when I was working for Human Rights Charity israel-palestine was my brief are particularly kind of trendy here right now I know it's funny isn't it I wonder if you know that helped to some of the trend but I think all Middle Eastern diets of very food but also lots of the flavor palate is different so the whole eternity of Gaza and cuisine is garlic and Green Chili and dill I and Haifa which of these incredible seaside towns the food like how how do you describe the food there yeah so the food that and actually the food of that the big huge flat breads and the meat juices of pulled over into the bread and then you tear apart it with your hand unlike quickly pulled together and part of that referencing was about that because so many people I know dairy free or plant based on you know perhaps just together and how you decided to highlight these different cuisines yeah so I really see this book as a travelogue I wanna take my read on real culinary adventure through and sometimes it can just be kind of rice and herbs and I think one of the things that really struck me when I was doing the research for this book is just how plant based the food is from from the you or beef stew that you would add these flavorings into so again just really unusual so within such a small bit of like land there were would gather when it comes to feeding families gooding gather believes that real life and eating well should go hand in hand that good food and good people are more important I mean it sounds like from reading the book you're constantly introducing the reader to new families to people who you cooked with and telling their stories so what was the the book do divide out a whole section on the Vegan and also dairy free and gluten free menus because it does seem like it this zine just naturally lend itself to diets fermented or dried so it's a common ingredient throughout the Middle East so you know we're talking heartier dishes and Maumee Bay and then the food from Gaza is I mean the Mediterranean diet is said to be one of the best for health in the world right and I really wanted to make the book very practical because I'm a home cook you know I want people to the her new and only at target so you spend a lot of time like just talking to people while you're there drier and she was like just this really likes spirited young Palestinian woman you know she had then when where and how we eat that's why they created good and gather favorite flavors in selected staples made for real life in many ways we gather made with high quality ingredients and carefully crafted recipes to create better tasting food that you can be confident is a good choice for you in your family that's good engaged meet people that way other times you'd be at someone's House and then they'd be like Oh well you've got to try the bakery in this town like my aunt sisters cousin runs an incredible so interactive eating yeah or Mansa which is this kind of really Halsey lamb stew made with Jimmy which is is this isn't a recipe book which has got you know dishes in it I mean there are few like standout dishes but it's mainly stuff that I just want people to to get home from work and the form of the cookbook and this experience of cooking with people and and kind of telling their stories through food that that that resonate so deeply you know if the Galilee was really green you know the the West Bank is is not it is dry it's you know it's it's you know it's huge water supply issues in the region completely different as well so Gaza is a tiny strip of land and it's on the coast the Mediterranean Sea and there the focus is on lots of like see is that might be through social media I'll call out for friends of friends does anyone know anyone in an area and luckily the way the world works now you can three distinct culinary identities all right we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor this week's episode of the bottom teeth food cast is brought to you by targets in my own profession and just it was a lot of fun you know we're fell through quite lucky to have that kind of experience as opposed to just you know fly in and out of it massakin which is this gorgeous kind of marinated chicken dish that's-that's made with with all spice and Su Mac and then roasted and and that food is just so neutral you know it's such a a neutral space I wanna have that choice yeah so tell me about the other regions Gallery New Orleans the Galilee and then we've got the food of the West Bank which linked to like the economy and food systems and the environment and so people's lives just for where it enables a quite safe environment to be created when more challenging subjects perhaps can be broached it's I mean just like I feel like if Palestinians can stop something like they will and what are they stuffing yeah well a real variety of stuff so it can be with Rice on minced taste the ingredients but I think that you can also get the taste of a culture you know just that story I shared about the sharing of the Massakin chicken I mean you get such an insight but beyond that I think that my belief is that food is inherently political I think you have to be in a privileged place to think that isn't because for most people in the world that food choices on including US here in New York today but your food choices are inherently in her car with the windows bled down listening to music and just like visiting friends there's all visiting people I've met through social media or people I used to work a bit of it's kind of a strange ingredient it's it's a kind of amended way Lexus is Kinda funky the milk product yeah but media and the food landscape I think it's been a really interesting few years in Genoa around the issues of identity and food and the food media I think out of like that so I just felt that it was such a good way to tell a story about a place which let's be honest it can make a lot of people feel like Oh you know just viewed world or is so diverse I think what's happened in recent years is that perhaps we've started to see the nuances Middle Eastern food a bit more you know we right head like pomegranate tattoos like a real kind of cool artists and she was such a big Foodie so we would just drive around more in common we've got more that unites us than divides US foods just a great place to show you that yeah and do you see that the food world now seems to be a place for a week and have a fix arrange things view it it wasn't like that it was a lot more organic and it seems like this the cookbooks in general and especially never saying Oh European food and just put it all together because we know that like French food in Spanish muted Italian different so I think maybe that's what aw kebab place in like this place so you you kind of have most fully knows but I was really lucky in that for the book I worked with this really cool photographer I called cookbooks like yours are such a powerful medium for telling those stories and I wonder why you think that is why like for you what is it about the the cookbook research in the writing process like for you for this book yes all my books actually there the client adventure for me as well you know I into Palestinian culture just by knowing that people share food in such a way on Mazzy this idea that you have small plates and you eat together that sense of community community any of the arts and I speaking to a friend yesterday he kind of works for publication and we were talking about the fashion section of where she works in law that's so different to like the you have to end I do want to talk about some more recipes

Yasmin gooding official Amanda Israel Palestine eighteen years milk three years four years ten years
46: Putting Partition in Global Context with Laura Robson and Arie Dubnov

Jewish History Matters

1:15:36 hr | 1 year ago

46: Putting Partition in Global Context with Laura Robson and Arie Dubnov

"I'm Jason Let's dig and welcome to Jewish history matters. I'm joined today by Laura Robson an Ra Dude Nov to talk about the history of partition separating territories and peoples to create new states. And why it matters. In a global context in the book which Laura Ari Co Edited titled Partitions a Trans National History of twentieth century territorial separation they and authors who contributed to the project have brought together three important cases of partition in the twentieth century. Ireland in the nineteen twenties Israel and Palestine in nineteen forty seven and India and Pakistan in nineteen forty eight and nineteen forty nine. It's a phenomenal project. That highlights the intersection of geopolitical developments and allows us to tied together. What are usually seen as national histories? In a global sense. Laura Robson is a professor of history at Portland State University in Portland Oregon. Her most recent book is states separation transfer partition and the making of the modern Middle East which appeared in two thousand seventeen. That book states of Separation Explores the history of forced migration population exchange and refugee resettlement in Iraq Syria and Palestine during the Inter war period. Also joining us is our of who holds the Max Ticket Chair of Israel Studies at George Washington University Ari is historian of Twentieth Century Jewish and Israeli history with emphasis on the history of political thought. The study of nationalism and decolonization among his publications are Isaiah Berlin. The journey of a Jewish liberal which was published in two thousand twelve and the edited volume Zionism of view from the outside which appeared in two thousand ten in Hebrew. I'm really excited to share this episode. Where their book partitions a Transnational History of twentieth century territorial separatism presents a frame and a starting point for our wide ranging conversation about partition and its origins history and legacy before we dive into the episode. I just wanted to say thank you for subscribing and if you enjoy this episode. I hope you'll share it with a friend. You can find the Jewish history matters. Podcast on all the major APPS and services on apple podcasts Google spotify etcetera. And you can follow us on social media on twitter and Instagram at Jewish history. Fm and you can also find us on facebook to where we've got a facebook group. You can find this episode online at Jewish History Dot FM slash partition. Where I've also posted a link to the book's introduction again. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoy this conversation with already. Dubrovnik and Laura Robson. Hi Laura. Ira Welcome to the PODCAST. Thanks so much for having us. That's a pleasure. I'm so glad that we are able to actually sit down and talk about this book and all the big issues that is bringing forward what I kind of want to get started off with in a way is to think about what is partition in the first place. I mean in a certain way. I think that it might be fairly obvious to a of listeners that we're talking about partition. We're thinking about for instance the partition of Palestine in the nineteen forties etcetera. But what do you mean when you say partition especially as you are trying to place partition in a transnational global context and then also as you think about what is partition. Why do you think partition matters in terms of how you can think about an and try to understand the trajectory of the twentieth century as a whole and its repercussions for today? Well I think that when we think about partition many people think just about a kind of division of territory right so dividing territory into two or more pieces but what we are suggesting. This book is and what many other commentators have suggested as well is that in fact partition as a modern phenomenon is not just the division of territory but the devolution of political power alongside a division of territory that demarcates different populations as national. So we're talking about the creation of specifically national states out of a multinational space and that that involves sometimes the redrawing of borders and it can involve transfer of populations can involve for simple denationalisation. And we're arguing in this book. It is deeply and intimately tied to practices of violence and to up on that. I think that a good metaphor useful metaphor would be to describe a partition as it emerged gradually during the twentieth century. As it turned into a package deal so I think that part of what is misleading in a first-class we imagine partition. We seen in front of us an imaginary aura. Concrete map and we think about the lines that are drawn or maps but if that would be our definition of partition we can't distinguish it from any type of of demarcation. Redrawing of borders borders can even borders within. You know between districts so I think the drawing the lines on the borders is only one component alongside. What are we dividing this territory into? So where dividing the territory into new type of political entities. We called nation state so state would be the second important component and a third component. Is that in order to have ethel national space. You Redesign did y'all graffiti and the demography accordingly so if needed and unfortunately often that was the case it will include a force removal of population. What we would call transfer as you think about these different examples. How do you distinguish between these different things you know? And maybe I don't know if you WANNA give two examples of how you see you know. For instance the division of Germany in the aftermath of the Second World War is a question of partition or not question of South Korea. North Korea questions of Israel and Palestine. You know India and Pakistan etc you. How do you think about what is partition? And what is not in the? Why does it matter to differentiate between these things and talk about them in this way? These are great questions. I actually did the examples. I will take are drawn from an earlier face to make the distinction so I mean one of the questions that we are often asked. So how do you fit something like the partition of Poland in that scenario? And this is where. It's important to explain that we are coming up with a definition which is our conceptual and analytical tool which is not necessarily the way in which. Indo historical sources people would use partition as award so we will distinguish partition from earlier cases of imperial. Divide and rule those of us. Who are familiar with the case of the partition of Poland so that partition of Poland is actually making Poland non-existent basically by dividing the territory of former pull and between other superpowers. The partitions we're talking about are in the way moving in the opposite direction. It's a method. We would argue. That is very much connected to UH specifically imperial context late imperial context in which you are allowing local groups to enjoy In quotation marks an increased degree of self government. But this is actually a tactic of containing these differences within an imperial space. And this is something that that we identify. As emerging as a new type of tactic and Inter war years and then exercise in in radically different circumstances after too which is different from earlier cases of divisions and of course also expulsions that of course took place before the twentieth century but had a different a tenor and intention in mind. It has a number of precursors including the kind of dissolution of the land-based Empires of central and eastern Europe and and the Ottomans fear in the late nineteenth century when population transfer and expulsions mass expulsions. Refugee dumb become kind of markers of the gradual dissolution of those imperial spaces but one thing that happens in the aftermath of the first world. War Is that empires at the British Empire in particular sees this rise in the language of ethnic nationalism. Kind of increase in this discourse around ethnic nationalism and this discourse of self-determination in this discourse of representation and it decides that it can make use can appropriate that language for the purposes of maintaining imperial control over spaces that are proving to be quite difficult to hang on to so I think that there is a prehistory of partition in the sense. In some ways in in that nineteenth century late nineteenth century ethnic engineering that is taking place in in in areas like the Balkans but that after the first World War we really begin to see the articulation of a new concept of partition. That makes use of the concept of ethnic nationalism to preserve imperial power. I mean I think that part of the question here then is as we think about partition as a twentieth century phenomenon. How does it help us to understand the twentieth century as a whole and also it what does it tell us about the repercussions of Twentieth Century? History and of this legacy of partition as we try to understand our own world. I think that one thing that does that is really crucial is that it helps us to trace the rise of the acceptance of the idea of ethnic nationalism as the only viable form of political organization in the modern world and it suggests that the pressures for the ethnic nation state are not coming from below or at least not solely coming from below but some of the reason for the success of the ethno national model as a kind of twentieth century. Model for how politics should work. Globally is actually driven by older imperial interests. And that should give us pause when we think about the kind of viability of the system of nation statehood as an emerges in the twentieth century. And explain some of its fragility and explains the violence that underlies. It's making across the globe. So I think it is actually quite an important correction to make when we think about partition to think about it as an imperial strategy rather than as a national strategy I completely arena or would add to that I mean that maybe it sounds odd to many of us because at least when I was a student we used to have these big synthetic histories dot slice up history a very convenient way and we'll tell the following story the twentieth century. Or you know to US Eric. Hobsbawm TERM DUD age of extreme too short twenty centuries starts with World War One and World War One symbolizes the end of the age of empires and the beginning of the age of the nation state. It's almost a clear cut transition and we entered a new phase and in world historical turns now part of what is so complicated here. Is that if you look at the world after world were one. It's a highly complicated hybrid world in which up -solutely true that some of the monumental empires din collapse of course the Russian Empire ended up a Bolshevik revolution. There's no more ausra hungry. The Ottoman Empire collapsed. But at the same time at least two big European imperial powers the French and the British are bigger and stronger than ever before. Yet you enter into that very interesting arena in which you no longer are able to empire and building an empire in an old way so there is a bit of a paradox in that moment and we reaching the territory we will call nine hundred nineteen in which empire becomes quote unquote a dirty word in. Oh President Wilson will come to person will say all this bloodshed head to do with imperial rivalry and competition but at the same time if you look at Dow Globe the areas that are marked in red or pink colors which are traditional colors of the British empire larger than ever before. So you come up. With new type of solutions you come up with a mandate system. You'RE COMING UP WITH NEW TYPE OF POLITICAL ENTITIES. You called minions and condominiums and so on and more important and this is where you had to add to the equation. The rise of a new type of international thinking it's not only the theory but also the institutions the League of nations later on the United Nations. And this is definitely a twentieth century novelty and the history of partition tells us something about those internationalism as well that part of their genesis is in this imperial history and not in the rise of a new kind of you know essentially post colonial politics right which I think is misreading of the UN amid something. Other scholars have discussed but not in the specific context of partition and the rise of the ethnic nation. State Yeah I mean I think that in this particular volume you bring together a set of cases Israel and Palestine Indian Pakistan an Ireland that draw together these ideas very tightly in a number of ways. And what is it about these three cases in particular that draws them together besides the fairly obvious one which is that? They're part of the British Empire. What is it about these? Three cases that illustrates these broad issues about partition and about thinking about these questions of empire. These questions of ethno-nationalism these questions of the international system and so on and so forth. Well three of them become paradigms and models for other partitions and for each other so there are some fairly direct connections in terms of personnel that are traced out in this book particularly British official personnel. Who worked on two or even three of the partitions in question here? I think also that it suggests the framework of decolonisation as an important one for understanding partition and understanding this kind of new commitment to the national state. And it suggests that the process of decolonization is part of what's making internationalism and making internationalist policy here right. So that we can see a kind of transmutation of this idea about imperial control moving on in the post. Nineteen forty five period to representing a set of ideas about how internationalist authority can operate and to what ends to the ends of producing the kind of ethnic national statehood. That that the imperial powers envisioned under the rubric of a broader sort of imperial authority. So I think that it. It suggests that these three cases are tied together very tightly in practical terms and that they also serve as models for national imperial and International Policy. Echoing down the century. Anything that you know one niece sounds like an a truism. Were an obvious thing that there is a shared British imperial context here but I think this is a though it looks of us now at the end of the project when we started the project. That was definitely not the case. I mean it's not as if we didn't know the fine details of each one of those individual cases separately I mean national histories were very much invested in writing the history of of course to partition of India and Pakistan. That were involved you know. Mass Kale forced deportations and and violence. And of course the Israel Palestine nine hundred forty eight war into Naga but they tended to also reader history in seclusion. And it's very interesting to see that even Irish case that it has to do a bit also with the type of academic division of Labor. We have in our world scholarly world. I mean would be usually seen as because it's the backyard of Britain. Usually it was not seen as part of a bigger British imperial history. And it's very interesting to see therefore that Ireland comes out as the first case in which debris are experimenting and I am using this metaphor but it sometimes these metaphors of trial and error of a laboratory do appear reappear in the sources as one of the cases in which Dade really identified the conflict which is not a new conflict is now being imagined as a more national kind of a conflict. So part of what we have here in in story is that earlier. Division that will be imagined and described through the vocabulary of differences in confessional groups. Religious groups are being nationalized in the imagination. Both of the local actors themselves and in the mind of the imperial architects. And they're trying to think about. How can I maintain that amazing diversity within unity which was a very British slogan of how to think about the empire and partitioned in the Irish case in the early twenties emerges one of those attempts I mean and I think that few details are are important in that context for those of us who are not well-versed in Irish history? So the division of the Irish island dot was the result of the Anglo Irish Treaty of nine hundred twenty one created two states but we tend to forget the new entity that was known as the Free Irish state was technically a dominion and dominion this new type of creature that the British started exercising only in the twentieth century which is almost estate. That has perfectly of a state as we imagine it. With a few notable exceptions. It's still as part of the new type of British Commonwealth of Nations. It's still pledges allegiance to the crown. The crown surprising as it may sound sound becomes some some type of type of glue that would allow separate entities to govern themselves and the division became one of those techniques in which Northern Ireland is an accent becomes technically part of the British. I'll and the free. Irish state is actually a term. We need to put in quotation marks. Because it's up to ninety forty nine a dominion that is under the auspices of the British crown and this is a very novel way of thinking about politics. It's also true that the transnational history of partition has been erased because of the nationalist vision of what partition meant rates. So that in all three of these cases and many more there are nationalist historian fees that describe partition as a moment of national birth and that requires local national specificity. That can't see the broader transnational patterns. That are at work here so I think part of what we were trying to do is to point out that in fact this is not just about what's happening in Palestine. It's not just about what's happening in. Ireland is not just about what's happening in India but rather that we can actually see kind of global pattern emerging here. Yeah Yeah I think that this is really a critical aspect here which is to say that that each of these cases and many other cases of partition as well have all been heavily researched within their own fields. But what happens when we bring them together when we try to put them side by side and try to understand partition as a global phenomenon? Absolutely anything that there is something about national histories and as someone who teaches Israel history. Of course one of those interesting cases in which of course natural history is very much invested in in highlighting the exceptional and unique so again at least nature and every national history. Has this kind of a moment of sovereignty and independence. But once you look at these cases from a British Imperial Transnational Angle when you put this imaginary spectacle of the British Empire this ceremony in which you see the last British commissioner or soldier or officer leaving the country and the Union Jack is is being taken down and the new national flag is going up and there's a massive independence celebration in no way. This is the pattern of the age. I mean so. The national histories tend to look at what we as purely from imperial perspective. See as a very familiar pattern. That repeats itself tends to look at it as the exceptional unique that is divorced from a larger context. And that's part of what is a bit of the kind of the blind eye of the national history geography. So I think one of the questions. One of the issues here has to do with why the historic graphical interventions that. You guys are talking about or that you're describing or being a part of why they matter because I think that part of what you've described in the book and part of what you're talking about right here is shift in how historians understand this right. We are as scholars placing these events together in ways that the public has not and what is the ramifications of the historic graphical shift by having this new perspective to what expenses that lead to different potential interpretation of partition both in terms of its historical context as well as the continued popularity of partition as a potential resolution to all sorts of different kinds of conflicts? Well I actually think that one of the initial kind of impetus behind the book was that partition has made a reappearance in recent years as a potential quote unquote solution for all kinds of ethnic conflict and widely varied places and that that's an alarming development because it suggests to a public that participation is a kind of neutral tactic of St Making and a neutral tactic of what's being called conflict resolution and one where it is possible to identify and separate people of different nationalities. Different religions different languages with ease and resulting in kind of clear cut borders that represent more viable states. So there have been all kinds of proposals for this in places like Iraq and Syria It's ongoing palestine-israel. We've had a recent partition of similar nature in the Sudan. So there's renewed internationalist interest in the idea of partition as as a kind of tactic of St. Making and peacemaking. And I think that our research is really challenging the emergence of that idea the reemergence of that idea by saying we need to look here first of all what the actual goals of these partitions work that they are not in fact about the making of nation states from the bottom up but rather about the maintenance of imperial and international to control from the top down so as suggests a kind of different set of rules for those practices. But also I think it emphasizes the actual mechanics which are mechanics of violence when we think about what does it require to draw new border to create to nation states where we had a multinational state previously of whatever nature. What does that require requires expulsions? It requires violence. It requires physical movement removal of entire populations and it requires people to self define into communities that they may or may not have any particular sympathy with so I think that is also a really really important corrective that we need to understand that partition has historically and continues to be. Today has been a violent process. I think that this comeback also kind of illustrate something does we came up saying into book which is also one the shifts in perception of partition. When we think about partition as sort of a cutting exercise and this is also how the previous scholarship than to look at it. We would assume it was this moment which is short brief. Very painful surgical. Metaphors are always invoked in that context. In which you cut the land and even cut the people and very brutal and violent way but that's it it's end. Maybe there's this car but it's a closed event and part of what happened in the politics of those so-called post partition spaces is that partition. Exactly came back. I mean reappeared it resurfaced in each one of those spaces in different time in different to different circumstances in the South Asian context for instance Partition was never a done deal. You know we partition of Nike. Forty-seven created to Pakistan's east Pakistan. That is now a different state and also in the nineteen eighties. Assassination of Indira Gandhi's mentioned by scholars from India as a moment in which suddenly Indian intellectual thought that Oh that partition that we thought is a closed business. The echoes and the Ghost are here. And they're resurfacing. And they're shaping our present and not to mention of course the other contexts Israel Palestine and not to mention Ireland in today in the age of Brexit. So part of what is happening here. Is that when we start thinking about partition? In this way we realized that it's not an event a clear-cut you know it's it's a process and part of what makes perdition so sinister in many respects is that it's a project that you're constantly busy. You're achieving it. Exercising it in order to turn the theory into practice. You're continually shaping deposed partition political spaces through a lot of coercion and bureaucratic legal and violent mechanisms. It's interesting it relates in some ways to the scholarship on settler colonialism. Right the anthropologist. Patrick will famously. Had this line that said that settler colonialism is a structure not an event. There's not a moment when it's over. It has to be continuously reinforced in the same is true for a partition that it is an ongoing an unfolding process forever that it is never a closed at closed event Yeah I mean. I think there's a lot to think about here about the relationship of partition particularly in the British context to the history of settler colonialism. To the history of decolonization so on and so forth and I'm particularly struck by the inversion of the common narrative that you are suggesting that we I think certainly the public and also many scholars understand and think about partition. As part of the decolonization process. Like you said the lowering of the Union Jack the raising the national flag in etc the cases of India and Pakistan and Israel and Palestine are of course great examples of this phenomenon where partition is certainly connected with the withdrawal of British forces and British colonial administration from these territories. But you're saying is that we actually have it backwards that we should think about this as the continuation or the effort to continue British imperial policies and approaches. And I think that part of what is interesting here and I hope that maybe you can elaborate. A bit more is in. What way is something? That is commonly perceived as part of decolonization actually part of the imperial project and then as we think about the nature of partition as part of British history as opposed to just part of the local history of the places that were partitioned. How does it help us to understand continuing developments in the UK for since like as we talk about Brexit and as we talk about debates about Scottish independence or about devolution as a broad phenomenon both within the British empire and also with in Britain itself? I think part of what will help her. Clarifying maybe to move here is going to to distinguish but not too sharply between the way petitions were imagined and thought about in inter war years and the way day were exercise especially in the context of Israel Palestine and in the South Asian context after nine hundred forty five and of course part of the story here. Is that a bigger story of the British. Imperial decline colonial assets became liabilities and something that emerge earlier on as the Knicks of how to contain national differences but still have them under the imperial roof. So that the amazing titanic cold the British emperor will continue sailing. This tannock is thinking and thinking fast. After ninety forty five and suddenly the partition becomes a quick and dirty exit strategy when British Empire is no longer willing to send men and spend money on the Imperial Project. But part of what is of course. I think very old intervention. We're trying to make here is that let's think about especially in. This is something I would argue even in the case of the new Israeli nation. State thing about what happened to that. New Nation State a small nation state that emerges out of the debris of that empire that was shattered. Is that cutting its ties completely with any type of other superpower or do we have here a new nation state There's very much a proxy state so in a way I would suggest that hopefully future research will be able to draw these dots and see the connections. How this is tied into early Cold War Years? You know you have. Suddenly proxies is states. That are very much still rely on super power patronage and support otherwise the project is unworkable. And therefore if you'd like the best illustration in in the israel-palestine context is the nine hundred. Forty six sweats crisis. So here we pass the Rubicon Independent State after nine hundred forty eight David. Green is a prime minister. There is an Israeli defence force. You have older per failure of a nation state flogger a ham and instill this crisis shows how you have. A nation. State is very much busy launching an attack that will help saving French and British imperial interests. East of the sweats so is turned to the age of a nation state. A big game changer. In many respects of forces a game changer. But the proxy state the so in a way partition would hopefully will also allow us to connect you know how we think about decolonization and how ties into cold. War Politics and the British imperial history writ large and I also think that the kinds of ethnic conflicts that emerge through and after decolonisation and as a consequence of colonization itself proved tremendously useful for people who are looking for venues for international intervention in the Post nineteen forty-five years right so the idea of partition becomes kind of one aspect of the solving of conflicts globally. Which is something that the United Nations a new organization that is looking for a rationale for itself looking for ways to exercise power looking for ways to reshape the kind of emerging post colonial global order under the leadership of the superpowers. Of course right that it is that this becomes a kind of useful venue for the exercise of that power for the exploration of what International Authority will look like into whose benefit will redound. So I think that we do see a fairly direct line between the kinds of interventions that the British Empire is trying to make an holding onto in trying to hold onto territory in the inter-war period and the kinds of opportunities for intervention and influence and authority that institutions like the United Nations are exercising in the years after nineteen forty five. I think there's so much to think about here as we think about the transformation of the global system that we see simultaneously the devolution of power and also the creation of supranational bodies whether we're talking about the UN or the European Community later the EU. In that we can kind of see this as part of this much bigger transformation absolutely and in a way I mean it's interesting to note that federalism for instance as strategy is a kind of imperial strategy during the Inter war period but it also becomes a strategy of anti-colonialism particularly in the nineteen fifties when leaders in the decolonizing world are looking for alternatives to the ethnic nation statehood as the the kind of soul model for political viability. So there are lots of different manifestations of these ideas as we move in this kind of transitional period between empire and internationalism and it's interesting that you've mentioned federalism and and federalism. I think that you know jumping from history to the present when we look at proposals to solve the deadlock in today. You sometimes see them as if they are boiling down to these. Almost binary options dadge for historians like us. There are really clear echoes. I you see on the one hand A very sharp you know moved to politics that is based on separation segregation and partition including bringing back even the idea of tripping people of their citizenship in because the idea of a minority substantial minority within a nation state is unworkable and at the same time. Those who are trying to counterbalance it as think about alternatives are returning whether they are aware of that or not to type of. Federalists were common federalist models that were in circulation and a were part of the vocabulary in earlier phases. So I'm not saying that history repeats itself but it certainly rhymes to paraphrase the famous saying by Mark Twain. So if we are thinking about the present we do need to understand that there are precedents and there were echoes that that we need to bring back to the table. Get so I think in a way. This whole conversation has been very abstract right. We're talking about the idea of partition. We're talking about how it changes how it relates to broad changes in world systems or international relations but especially as we try to put a human face on the results of partition. I think that it might be useful for us to think about Partition in Israel and Palestine particular. Because I know Laura that you wrote a whole book on partition in the Middle East states of separation with title and I was wondering maybe she might WanNa speak a bit about partition in Israel and Palestine and the broader concept of partition. Its history its origin and how looking at the history of the Middle Eastern particular. It helps us to learn not just about in what took place within the space of the British mandate itself but in terms of the emergence of this entire region in. What are the big picture? Takeaways that we can take from looking at even just as one partition but especially when we put it alongside the other petitions which are taking place around the same period in different parts of the world so in states of separation. One of the things that I looked at particularly in the chapter on partition is the emergence of a concept of majority and minority politics that has essentially new in Palestine. As in other Ottoman territories prior to the imposition of the mandate system. There's no such thing as a minority right. There are different communities and they have often quite clearly defined relationships with each other and with the state. But there's no sense of a majoritarian population that offers a threat to a minority population and one of the things that happens when the British and the French come in to the Middle East and established the mandatory system of Palestine but also over the newly defined territories of Lebanon and Syria and Iraq. They begin to think about methods of controlling. What is actually a highly resistant? Population right the mandate system is not to put it mildly popular among the population of these regions and one of the things that they came up with was the idea of making use of this kind of post nineteen nineteen concept of ethnic nationalism to create minorities and majorities that would act in opposition to each other and states in which minorities required protection from some kind of outside element so this is yet another iteration of a kind of new legitimization new justification for an ongoing kind of colonialism in a period that has unfriendly to the to the idea so in the case of Palestine. It's particularly interesting. Because of course we have their subtler population that has coming in specifically under the auspices of a British and the League of nations encouragement of European Jewish settlement in Palestine with view to creating what they're calling the Jewish national home and increasingly throughout the mandate period. We have a redefinition of the Jewish population in Palestine as a minority this is also a novelty because typically settler colonial populations are not described as minorities elsewhere but it is something that becomes very kind of entrenched into the language that the League is using to talk about Palestine during the Inter war period. This is also one of the seeds of this concept of separation. Right that we we see. It is a justification of the ongoing British imperial presence. That they are doing something to protect what they are increasingly calling a minority that is European Jewish settlers in Palestine but also that there is a zero sum game emerging between the politics of a majority and the politics of a minority and that it is impossible to imagine a pluralistic state in which the two could coexist in a meaningful way so the groundwork is being laid in other words for what will eventually become the two state solution so called and I think that it. It helps us to understand how a different kind of politics of coexistence was preempted and largely for the purposes of kind of continue continued imperial presence in Palestine and across the Middle East more generally because we can see very similar policies emerging and British controlled Iraq and in French controlled. Lebanon and Syria. And I think if you even consoled you know the recent trends in in this real goofy and Zionism. I think that part of what might be described. Here is the narrowing of horizons. You know a a closing of a window before partition would became kind of a dominant paradigm different schemes and different ways of thinking how to manage your status as a minority national group. Were on the table. People were thinking about programs like by nationalism. But of course other programs like come Tony's ation of Palestine Federal Systems. You name it. Autonomy is of course a big buzzword when partition comes in and becomes the major way of about politics. It allows people to think about their future. Only through the prism of a new entity we call a nation state so subtly the state becomes the dominant way of thinking about your future and the resolution one eight one Venturer nine hundred forty seven was basically a separation into these two national Nation state though what happened of course as we all now that was also the opening of the ninety forty eight war that didn't end up in creating two states at created one st and refugee unsold refugee problem that were living with its repercussions to this day. So part of the human face here is of course that if you think about it from that perspective part of what you have to understand is that they were of ninety forty eight that we think about it. If we're coming from a perspective of course the knockabout degrade disaster the catastrophe from the Israelis on his perspective. That will be the war of independence but part of what we have here is basically a war of partition. You take the idea of partition. And you're exercising it on the ground you're manifesting it and as we all know to older to turn partitioned into fact on the ground it involves islands it involves explosion and moreover it involve creating setting up a mechanism that would prevent the refugees from returning to their homes and this is were bureaucracy and it's not only war but the bureaucracy and the legal institutions that are set up are important to understand how you maintain does and this is where sell me. I think that historians of Zionism for instance can learn a lot about the kind of burrowing mechanisms. I mean even the basic legal apparatus that will dominate the way in which you a justify taking property that would be called abandoned property and turn it into state property. These legal mechanisms were crafted by Israel. Illegals callers through burrowing and looking at precedents in in the Pakistan predominantly Pakistan. Surprising as. It may sound for us. If you'd like the historical actors themselves understand that there are embedded in this kind of international transnational space. And they need to learn how to burrow these models. It's also an interesting example of the way that partition continues to be an open process rather than a closed one right because we think of nineteen forty eight as being a moment of of expulsion and the expulsion is where the lines are drawn right and that that's the kind of crucial moment in the creation of of the Palestinian refugee problem and the creation of the state of Israel but in fact at least as important is the refusal in the immediate aftermath of the war by Israel to allow Palestinian refugees. Back in and that is an ongoing process that has to be repeated over and over and over and over again up to the present day right partition has to be continually enforced in perpetuity. It's never over and so in terms of a human face. This is partly what it looks like is that we have these kind of ongoing legal process but also physical process a process of physical barriers to return that have to be constantly redirected so one of the things that you referenced before was the reemergence of partition as a popular form for resolving various conflicts. Today and you even start off. The book with a really striking phrase saying that partition is having a moment so especially with the history of partition in mind thinking about the origins of partition. Can you maybe say a bit more about what you mean by the reemergence of partition? Especially as it seems that it's been kinda constant idea that's been on the table since the early twentieth century. And what does it mean for it to be having a moment now? And how do we contextualized this moment of partition so to speak within this broader history? Though one of my origin points for being interested in the idea of partition was noticing. How frequently the concept of partitioning Iraq came up in the aftermath of the American invasion in two thousand and three and it's a conversation that has continued to the present day right we we are seeing kind of perpetual discussions among the pundits about the possibility of redividing Iraq. In some way and it's actually a an example. That very much follows the kind of British imperial in postcolonial pattern. Because what has happened. Is that in the American invasion of Iraq. The United States sought as an explicit policy particularly after the so called surge of two thousand and seven two separate Sunni and Shia populations within the cities and within the state of Iraq so during the surge one of the things that American troops were were charged with doing was to build walls physical walls between neighborhoods. That would now be designated as to knee or Shia which had never previously been the case. You know it's a very mixed city. Historically speaking in fact was twenty five percent Jewish in the Inter war period and then this gives us a rationale gives the United States rationale four protecting the interests of these various constituencies through a military presence. And so then this conversation about partition. And who would enforce it and how would its outcomes? Be Protected is also bound up with the continuation of some sort of American political and crucially military presence in Iraq that will have to be there in perpetuity. So I think it's a very clear. Example of the way in which the discourse of partition as a form of national liberation has been deployed for the purposes of what are essentially imperial powers and imperial interventions and that that's very very much an ongoing process of soy. I think that thinking about the more recent Israeli Palestine history and chronicles. And and if you go to the nineteen nineties the two state solution and the Oslo accords abroad back basically. What is the idea of a partition? So if you would like one can read the nineteen nineties as an attempt to you know closed at that window that was opened and and to create these states at never emerged in the wake of the nineteen forty seven. Un resolution as we know it it never worked out to end end the discourse of course this course of separation Israeli politicians will use expression like we are here. They are there with the underlying assumption that peace quote unquote is unattainable unless you separate communities because the idea of a minority is untolerable so it's not only a collapse of the idea of minority treaties. And some sort of a configuration that would allow minorities to exist but it really is ties today. Unfortunately with very populist and of discourse that is emerging both from the bottom and from a bottom up and top down. I think that that it's a lens through which it's definitely historical but it's a very ordnance that one can use in observing contemporary politics as well and I think to another thing that we haven't mentioned but should is the way that partition forces a decision on people between two communities. Bit Preempts. The idea that somebody could belong to both right. Which has historically been the case for many many people in Palestine Israel and across the Middle East more generally as well as in other contexts. You know to have multi communal families multi-linguistic families multinational families. These are all real social phenomena that partition the concept of partition and the practice of purchasing does enormous violence too. So I think that that's another thing that we need to talk about when we're discussing the kind of human face of partition. Is that it forces a very very painful choice on people who might otherwise think about their lives in a much more kind of pluralistic sunning. Yeah I mean I think that one of the things that this whole project does which is really interesting And Really Important. I think that the bestest Oracle projects do this is that they fundamentally are historic sizing a concept or development that many people think does not have a history and I think that was interesting. Is that the that the way that you and then the authors who are part of the project as well you are really highlighting and thinking about is that many people assume that partition is a natural development. The partition is a natural resolution. Laura made this comment earlier when we weren't recording that it's kind of like kids who are squabbling. What do you do you separate them all right? It seems kind of obvious. But you're also saying that that this is not obvious this constructed and you're saying that it has a history that we need to understand. It just didn't come out of nowhere and you can also refer to other things that you're describing as we talk about separation you were describing building walls as something that that many people still seem to think the building a wall will solve all sorts of problems so as you think about partition and this process this project of historic Partition how does it help us to try to? Perhaps opener is to other kinds of resolving conflict. That may not be having a moment. I think it points to the historical presence of all sorts of alternatives to the exclusionary ethnic nation state. First of all that. There's nothing natural about the emergence of that model as the only viable political model for the twentieth. And now twenty. First centuries that people have thought about other ways of living together that there have been historically speaking many many highly pluralistic societies that have been basically functional in a political sense and that these imaginary of separation are not liberationist for the people who are living them. I think that that's a really important corrective to because nationalist historiographer celebrates these moments of independence and separation and recognition. And I think that one of the correctives that we're trying to make here is to point out how many victims there are of these kinds of policies and the damage that they do to lives that may exist within or between or across these kinds of national imaginary and a comment can be made actually about cultural tropes and language and metaphors and how they play a role in when one tries to either. Naturalized intern partition. Which is politically constructed process and turn it into imaginary organic process and also medical metaphors that will be used and then partition will be described as type of surgery. The cut in the flesh is is often a term that is used or metaphors. Such as Solomonic. Trials that often are used. Interestingly they often would come from imperial metropole and there is. If you haven't noticed there is a kind of underlying self-congratulatory kind of undertone here because it makes me the British officer or the adviser King Solomon the wise of Weise's of all that is cutting here so there's something to be said about. We tend to think about you know. These processes through cultural tropes and through language and often language can be also the thing that creates that illusion of naturalness and often the task today store and his right against the grain and against these cultural tropes. Yeah one of the year that we haven't really talked about too much. But it's an important thing to mention. Is that as we look at and think about various instances of partition particularly the three ones that you emphasize that you bring together and the book. The people who are drawing the maps where making the decisions are not the people who are the most affected by it in many ways the different groups who are being separated. Don't really have a spot or a place at the table as part of this conversation. So with this in mind. I was wondering especially with the history of partition in mind. Do want to think about or comment on the most recent proposal of the so called peace plan which is neither a plan nor will probably create peace but as we think about the history of partition and essentially another proposal for dividing up the territory of Israel and Palestine. How can a nuanced and complex performed perspective on partition help to understand this particular conversation? And also this question of WHO's sitting at the table. Who's not a very touchy issue? But I have very potent one and it's it's interesting. First and foremost I mean it really highlights the way an external superpower North Authority is actually the one that is running the show so something that would be seen as a as a solution but actually is based on a metropole that is dictating to to the local actor. So that's that's I for most something that I think is very very clear from from the onset I think that part of a force many commented on this and we are definitely not the first ones to see it is really the exclusion even the illusion or Femara or having everyone at the table was no longer necessary. I mean it's can be completely A one sided and it's very much invested in closing the window on any type of turn of thinking it seems as there's something about language speaks in uses the phrase kind of way of thinking of my way or the highway which is very very clear in in the way things are being conducted so alternatives are not part of the discussion and and rightly so because this is part of the technique and management. And it has something to do. That is not connected to specific. Temperaments of the current Agamemnon. 's and that we tend to focus on that new. We do need to see this as part of a larger broader phenomenon. That has a history. I think that the most important thing to think about the new so called peace plan is that there is nothing new about it in a way. It is making evermore. Evidently assumptions that have underlain American approaches to israel-palestine for many decades and that the premises of those arrangements have always been partition EST premises. You know since well before. Nineteen forty eight and that the role of the United States is one that has inherited from the British Empire that it is acting as an imperial power and that it is making precisely the same set of calculations about ethnic separatism physical separation as a venue for intervention that we see in the development of the idea of partition in the Inter war period. So I think it's very clear manifestation contemporary manifestation of precisely the same kind of historical phenomena that we've been discussing In this book and in this conversation yeah I mean I think that what we could talk about this one plan extensively this so much that has been said about it and so much that could be said but I think that part of what's at stake here is thinking about how the public conversation about a proposal like that one could be informed by historical perspectives. Absolutely I think that there are underlying assumptions. That need to be questioned. I mean there's an underlying assumption is not discussed if we are only focusing on the immediate and we're just following the recent headline in the news about the inability to have differences within the same political framework. So if you'd like one of the most controversial something you know. Issues in the recent deal of the century. So-called was tripping out citizenship of of significant chunk of Palestinian citizens of Israel. Day Redraw the line in the way Doug Day will belong to the future Palestinian state and no longer so to speak enjoy citizenship right in the Jewish state and underlying assumption here is about are very much. The underlying assumptions of protectionist politics in the nation state needs very clear cut demographic balance majority versus minority. You cannot imagine any type of constitutional arrangement that would allow a plurality within that framework in one it's not true sides and it's exactly classic package deal. If geography doesn't fit the demography will shift the demography orchestra of the geography. So I will. I am redrawing lines on the map and if needed I don't want to put people on buses or send them off to voyages into the into the desert so will redraw the map in a way. That would exclude them while you can see it now. One of the the area that was excluded is called in Hebrew homage to lash literally. Meaning that Wrangler and it was interesting to see that one of the responses Immediately the day after the plan was released that people release the flag of Israel without a mishmash without the triangular you saw the flag of Israel with only a triangular. The Star of David. Turn into a single triangular. And this is you know one can say. That's a kind of graphic cry out but it's something that says something about the way other people are trying to push back and say we can imagine Palestinian. Who is a citizen of Israel? The fact that twenty one percent of these roles citizens are Arab. Speaking is not something that is inconceivable and when we think about who benefits from these arrangements. But we're really talking about is is empire once again that these kinds of arrangements have to be enforced from outside and they provide a venue for external powers to do that and I think this is you know this is a really useful thing to remember and thinking about a kind of historically informed approached israel-palestine. This is not a unique problem. This is a case that is deeply intertwined with histories of colonialism and decolonization across the rest of the Middle East and across the globe in the twentieth century. It has kind of quintessential case study of colonialism and decolonization continuing to unfold into the contemporary period. And I think that of course there are specifics but when we think about how Israel Palestine has emerged as an issue in the contemporary world. It is worth remembering that. There are parallel cases that this has happened elsewhere. That partition has been tried in other instances for very much the same sets of reasons and think about what the outcomes have been in those places as well and I think that the word should be said in the context of our. You know podcast you know it will be an illusion. And I think a misreading of history to assume that there's something about this that is is organically connected to Jewish history. As if partitioned emerges from some sort of a conception or thinking about sovereignty as if statehood and partition is something that you can trace back. I mean I think that this is something that is important to mention. In the context of our broader conversations. Jews are participating in a larger history. They are actors sometimes active actors sometimes subject and there are participating in this global history and of course every case has it's own uniqueness but exceptionalism won't take us for As as a venue to understand history deeper so as we kind of approach the end of our conversation. One thing that we might think about is the legacy of partition. You've talked a little bit about the origins of partition about how it developed in different places and also particularly in Israel and Palestine. How is continuing to develop itself but when we think in really big picture terms what would you say is partitions legacy I that one of partitions most important and most toxic legacies has been the assumption that nationality is natural and that the physical separation of national communities is a viable way to a functional global order? I think that's an assumption that many many people continue to hold today that as a direct consequence of the conversations about partition that unfolded in all sorts of contacts. It's the reason that we can see the idea of purchasing being applied to such radically disparate geopolitical situations both historically and in the current period. And I think it's been frankly toxic legacy that. We need to recognize investigate and acknowledge as an experiment in imperial control and not an expression of national liberation and I would add to dad partitions and as they were exercised immediately after the postwar world created very fragile democracies and part of what we see today is that in these imperfect democracies in Iowa. I'm thinking both about Indiana about Israel. democracy was holding but now these institutions are challenged. And it's very alarming for me to see that. The assumptions of partitioned are not challenged but assumption dander lying assumptions of democratic rule of law are being questions and whether you look at the massive massive demonstrations in India Today concerning the attempt to redefine the citizenship law. If you look at what's happening in Israel Palestine the passing of the Nation State Basic Law. I think it illustrates this bigger argument. That if we think that partition belongs to the dust bin of history and it's no longer with US partition is here and it produces the headlines of today's newspapers and probably also tomorrow's and maybe it's worth adding that tracing the history of something that many people as you said considered to not have a history tells us something else which is that it's neither inevitable nor irreversible and that in fact there are other political. Imaginary 's there are other paths forward. We can think in a kind of post partition EST kind of way and that tracing out exactly how partition has functioned helps us to identify some of the less productive paths and imagining a functional. Global Political Order. I want to push back on some of what you're saying here before we finish up which is to say that. I don't disagree with you. I actually agree with almost everything that you just said but I think that there's a challenge here that as you're talking about for instance the toxic legacy of exclusionary nationalism or the idea that nations are not natural organic in developments that just have been around since the origins of time but that they are human inventions in a lot of ways. I think that this is kind of standard fare for historians especially people study nationalism. That as we look at the history of nationalism we can very clearly perceive and understand the tragedies that have taken place especially in the early twentieth century but even up till today as a result of of nationalism whether we're talking about war genocide whatever but but here's the thing which is that as we talk about sort of why history matters and why historical perspectives matter. We can say all of these things but there are a lot of people out there who would listen to this and say these people are nuts. And I'm not trying to say that I agree with those people but I'm saying that the impulse to say that separation is a natural resolution to a conflict. I think that there is an intellectual conversation. That is taking place here but it's also highly political. Which is to say in? What ways does history matter and in what ways do these perspectives matter? When to such a large portion of the population these ideas seem kind of in opposition to their fundamental political and ideological beliefs. I'm not really sure that's entirely true. I mean I think that when you look at how people operate in their kind of daily quotidien lives everyone operates in pluralism. There's no such thing as a kind of pure community of any kind and I think that in fact people are familiar and very kind of quotidian ways with the process of living with difference of kind of thinking about different ways to exist within a community about different modes of representation and that one of the tasks of scholars and historians is to demonstrate how those processes have unfolded in the past and in so doing perhaps to point out some of the ways. They could unfold in the future. And I think that one of the you know one of the things. The history of purchasing tells us is that people do invest in the concept of nationalisms particularly as it becomes the only channel through which they can access resources right through which they can access the state through which they can access land political power even kind of basic survival. In many instances right. But that there's there's nothing kind of inevitable about that process and that in their daily lives people make decisions about how to coexist with others all the time and that in fact. It's one of the things that we see as as examples about the recent conversation about the Jewish nationality law illustrate that you know about the reason. The recent proposals for the so-called peace plan illustrate is that that people actually are on the ground figuring out other ways to coexist so I think our job is historians as to kind of highlight the ways. How power works. How power has worked for whom these kinds of institutions of nationalism and intervention operate you know to his benefit those things operate and to illustrate the kind of pads power authority and how they could look different. Yeah if I could just interject. I just wanted to point out. What perhaps more what. I'm trying to articulate here. Which is you know. I'm teaching a class right now about the history of nationalism here at ut and there's this very complex dynamic not necessarily in the classroom but in terms of the wider world which is that that we can talk as scholars about the history of nationals in the history of nation states this to say the nation states are invented etcetera etcetera and yet we live in a world where we see kind of again a global political development of the resurgence of nationalism and exclusionary nationalism sort of happening at the same time what. I'm trying to suggest here is in. What ways does this kind of conversation matter in relationship to this broader conversation this broader world which is taking place where of course there are still many people who see nationalism for what it is but yet we no are living in a world of say for instance? Eric Hobsbawm in the eighties or the nineties. Where he believes in many others that nationalism was on its sort of terminal decline. It's a very important push back and I would never underestimate feelings and especially one feeling in emotion in particular which is fear. I mean so. We are academics. Cerebral very political. We tend to underestimate emotions. Emotions play a lot a big role and I think that part of the challenge of setting in turn Tive to petition is that people are rightly are fearful there are fearing violence. They're fearing what would be the alternative indie alternative so justifications for partition often. We'll take the gaze of the Lesser Evil Dead. Even people will understand that. It's not perfect but the alternative is worse. So I think that part of what we need to create a safe space to think about alternatives in which one is not fearful that that even opening up the horizons in thinking about alternatives to medically will blow in your face and and in in a very violent way so I think that this is a very important push back in a in a and I accept the challenge. I think that this is a very important. A challenge for us as as academics. Not that I believe that there is such a thing as an ivory tower. Definitely not in our day and age but in our day and age we do have. We are suffering from a reputation that unfortunately populist politics creates the illusion that academy instead of being space for forging and exchanging ideas. A free way is actually hotbed of dangerous ideas. So I I want to push back against that type of sanction and not to dismiss the fear. But you really engage with it and and and my hope is that people that bring back to sort of the assumption that the only solution is to go back to sort of a tribal back to my base back to my community as the only viable way will feel that at least in the universities and list through an academic discussion and through adding a historical perspective. It will create some sort of a safe space to think outside the box. I think too that we need to acknowledge that just because something is constructed because we can identify history for it because we can see its origin. Points doesn't mean that somehow not real and that in fact these structures become real and they become important and become practically relevant to people's lives so and we're talking about imagining alternatives. It's not just a matter of changing our mindset but actually shifting the political structures that have emerged from what I would call a partition EST mindset right and that those are very big tasks and it is something that we as academics need to be engaged with and I think one of our tasks is to remember that he pointing out that something is not natural does is not the same thing as actually dismantling. Well yes I mean. This is the thing that I emphasize with my students. All the time talking about nationalism in in this one particular course and just in general which is that we can talk about imagine communities or invented traditions or whatever but doesn't make them any less powerful as a social historical phenomenon exactly absolutely this brings us to it will end with. Which is that as we think about this history of partition and tied in with this other discussion in which we were just having about the role of academics and the role of thinking and approaches To all sorts of problems. How is it that you see this project of thinking about partition both in this book and also in a much broader sense contributing to public discourse about the world nation states in the world of partition? That really is the legacy of the twentieth century. I hope that it will help people to think about how internationalists games operate and for whose benefit and to not make kind of casual assumptions about the naturalness of of such quote unquote solutions. But rather to think about who came up with these ideas how they were enforced. What their practical effects were on real people and in real people's lives and I think those are all jobs that historians undertake and have a responsibility to continue to undertake and that it allows us to kind of see the full range of repercussions and ramifications of partition Est. Thinking in a way that we have maybe not done up until now I think that one of the privileges of the historian as debt once we'd wealth into past periods and we understand specific period. We can understand for a second. That people in the past had debates. They had different paths to choose from which is of course the opposite from our first assumption. We read history in the linear away at train that that goes in one direction at has clear stops and this is exactly what the academic historian is not doing. If we're we'll be able to inform the general public my students just let them understand The same way that we don't know what future beholds and we have dilemmas and we're thinking about the different paths and we have different horizons. If you really understand that you don't need to be lost. Actually history can help you. Not because it has as her because some of those questions were raised before you and by understanding these older questions. Maybe you will have a better way of thinking about your own future all right. Well thank you both for this really fantastic and interesting discussion. Thanks so much for having some was pleasure. Yes thank you so much and thanks to you for listening to this episode if you enjoyed our conversation. I hope you'll share the episode with a friend and subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcasts. Google spotify or anywhere else. You listen until next time. I'm Jason. Let's dig and thanks for listening to Jewish history matters.

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Ran Abramitzky on the Mystery of the Kibbutz

EconTalk

1:06:43 hr | 2 years ago

Ran Abramitzky on the Mystery of the Kibbutz

"Welcome to econ- talk part of the library of economics and liberty. I'm your host. Russ Roberts of Stanford university's Hoover Institution. Our website is econ- talk dot org, or you can subscribe comment on this podcast and find links and other information related to today's conversation also find archives. We listened to every episode we've ever done going back to two thousand six or Email addresses mail it. He contact dot org. We'd love to hear for. Today is Tober fourth, two thousand eighteen and my guest is author and communist run upper mid ski of Stanford University. He's studies ecconomic history, immigration, and inequality. He is the author of the mystery of the kibbutz egalitarian principles in a capitalist world run, welcomed econ. Talk. Thanks for having me Russ, what is it? Kaput and why did you get interested in them enough to write a book on them? It's a good question. So a key cute seem we flew out of kibbutz our communities in Israel that were based for many years on full equality in distribution of incomes. And as such, they are puzzling for economic theory. They are based on full equality of incomes and collective ownership of property, and yet they survived for over a century. Now that the first you know, just a brief overview is that the first boots was established in nine ten by a dozen of people from eastern Europe. But the vast majority of people seem were established in the thirties and forties just before the creation of the state of Israel, they first were established as communal farms, but in the fifties and sixties when Israel went through industrialization process would seem participated in this process. And since then they have a large industrial base alongside agriculture. So today there are like one hundred twenty thousand people leaving in two hundred sixty eight. Keyboard they account for about two and a half percentage of the Jewish population of Israel. They vary incised from say, like a hundred two sites the over thousand, the average size of kibbutz his four hundred forty members, which is about one hundred and fifty feminists or so. So I got interested in them from a very young age. So I myself did not grow up on. I keep bullets about to all my family dim. The part of my mother, my mother's feminine deeds. So my grandparents among the founders of you boots and my grandma lived there for fifty years. And then my mother grew up and left sister stayed. And then later on my brother married the kibbutz, nimble and as children, my brother and I love to hang out on the kibbutz. It's a fabulous place like these picturesque feel Gina with small houses surrounded by green paths and be we used to go play table tennis and so care and. Football and basketball debuts go and eighteen communal dining goal vs keeps members, and he was a great place. Appearance didn't have to worry about us because it's perceive and these no pollution, no cars, and it was great. And as I grew older, I became even more fascinated, keep team and because not just, I enjoyed the, there's so much, but, but I thought that the this is the idea of splitting everything equally and have no pover- tea and no poor people is a very just way to, you know, to construct society. But as the cliche goes, when I was a bit older as especially as I started to study economics at the Hebrew University, I became more skeptical. So as the cliche goes, if you're under twenty and you're not a socialist, you have no heart. But if you're over twenty years still socialist, you have no brain, I started to be more skeptical. So I remember one day in particular when I was having a discussion with my uncle and he described the path, breaking innovations of the key booed say it's a very good irrigation factory system in Israel, a very successful factory, and I decided to provoke him. So I told him ory you know, according to comic Serey. The put should not exist. Actually, the factory shouldn't be as good. So why does anybody work very hard? If all they get is like an equal share of the total resources? I explained to him the brain drain problem that I learned in. University. And then I said, besides Israelis, the size of New Jersey. Why would any talented person ever stained the keep, which why wouldn't it be a great deal to move to Tel Aviv and earn a premium for you ability and efforts? Why would you stay in shut your income with people who are some bishops and talented than you? So I explained to him the brain drain problem, and then I told him what about entry expect all the lazy people who can't make it outside to seek to enter Cuba's because what a great deal of these to enter and have other people subsidize you earnings. And so I expect him the adverse selection pro and that I continued with my annoying speech and told him that I also worry about his kids little bit because why they don't have any much incentives to study hard because why would you study hard if a high school dropout in a computer science engineer get paid exactly the same people's. Why would you study hard at all? And so, and of course he got upset. And we started that we started to fight and he explained to me how you know you Konomi are so cynical. All you can think about is the selfish person that only thinks about themselves, but everybody is your uncle, he's. He's a very smart man. He's pigging spirit for writing that book. I should add and he said, why would you know like you are so cynical? And everybody's familiar with the knows that the founders of the kibbutz were anything, but selfish people that cared only about themselves. They actually infect wanted to create a new Uman being the opposite of the hallway conomic was that cares only about himself and they wanted to create, you know, they want to care more about the collective than about themselves. And beside if you're so smart, then how you know, how can you explain to keyboard survived so successfully for almost a century. And he got me thinking, and that's what I've been doing for the years. He's like, trying to answer that question. And it's a fascinating book, and it's a fantastic example of applied microeconomics. There's so many interesting intuitions in the book about incentives and the role, the preferences play because incentives are not everything culture in and other things do play role in our decision making. And I think for readers for listeners who don't know much about kibbutzim about the butts day, you should give them an idea of what a radical utopian vision. It was. So not only is learned all this report as well as a little bit of personal experience. Having spent a summer at kibbutz riven in the negative. I think I've mentioned this to listeners four picking fruit and cleaning out irrigation lines with pin squatting on the ground every eighteen inches. They're just far enough apart. So they crouch down. To get when you can't reach the next one. So you have to get up crackdown again. It's fantastic motivator to actually stay in school if you're not committed to the boats. But the point is, is that it. Not only is there gala -tarian total in the original early days, the boats totally gala -tarian ISM in terms of consumption. There's no money. There's the children are not raised with the parents there. They sleep separately and parents see their children at separate times. You have no property that is your own. Talk about some of those those roles implicit and explicit that that made very different than say, just communal living. Yeah, that's a great question. So by the way you're in good company because you know, Bernie sunders and Jerry seinfield also spent some time on the kibbutz. They have similar experiences to share like you do at. So you're exactly right the this is just like leaving in the neighborhood. Will people a bunch of people decided to split things a bit more equally than than otherwise. This is a radical experiment in the sense that it it was it started with people who came from eastern Europe and they wanted to bring with them. Some of the things they liked about socialism, you know that from each according to ability to each according to needs as they came to a to a country full of uncertainty, and it made sense for them to a group together. They also had like strong strong socialist ideology, but also strong Zionist ideology. And the idea that people can the Jews can always only be saved by working on the land as opposed to learning Torah and. Avoid work like they often did in the us for and they, but, but the also wanted us to be voluntary, so they didn't want to force people to join their. And so the ideal voluntary socialism. And at first the set up these communes, and as you said, they'd spaced on full equality in the distribution of resources, no private property at all. So all communal property belongs to the commune. And as you said for many years was a non cash economy, so a quality was taken so seriously, the basic, they would be located things in kind. So there was there would be like a clothing budget, and then it would be like food, clothing, travel, and then each person would get equal amount of those that would be you. You're not able to save anything. You cannot leave anything to your kids. If you leave, you can only take with you a brain, but you can take share of the of the factory and all, and they also as you mentioned, they hit communal dining hall. So people did not eat in the in the comfort of their home, but they would eat their meals. Together with others in the in the communal dining hall, they. The equality so seriously that they wanted to also raise kids community. And so the system of fair especial residences for kids started around the twenties, we will kids leave outside of the parents homes. They would only visit a couple of hours maybe four to seek, say the parents, but otherwise they would leave together the Louis, be like a non that will take care of their needs and and they would the idea was to. Teach them as the ideals of equality and to make sure that everybody gets the same port unity. But at the same time, follow a strict, you know, pressure to conform and so on. And there is a big little too, by the way, this is a whole interesting issue is a big little too about this communal residence. At some point, occupy team decided that they were not a good idea in the eighties. Occupy team essentially shifted away from this system. There is literature about whether it was good for the kids and parents. We can talk about these if you're interested later, but possibly measure accurately, possible to measure accuracy. Exactly. Maybe maybe the insights from the chew is that it kind of depends on the kids. You know if the kids are like. Like the sensitive kids for whom this was not a great experience that those kids will love the independence and like those popular kids who love living away from parents and do, and so on. It's like it's like summer camp from day one. It's for some Ted's glorious for others. What you'll know what I think that's the best way to summarize it and then and then you know, they did have tough early days, but in the seventies, the thing that is quite amazing is that you can imagine why maybe a dozen people creating one keyboards and they have very radical belief system can can survive then by it. Think about this, you know, by the sixties and seventies, those are not, you know, they are really like. Villages that are surrounded by green paths and gardens and swimming pools, and and and tennis courts and bus capable courts ended. And they are really like the, the really many of them are are quite successful, and and so the the amazing thing is that an kibbutzim unlike many other communes in history, they will never at the margin of society. The always influenced anger influenced by society as a whole. They always were perceived to be like the the example of how a soc voluntary socialism can work and how you can then alongside contribute to the country. A lot of the those of Israel to a large extent were based on Wilkie would seem, we're located at the time. The state was created. So this is like a radical experiment in many ways, but one that was perceived to be one. That was the lived very long. And that's why it's. Perceived to be one of the most. Important experiment, involuntary. Socialism. One of my visors in in graduate school is George stigler and charge Taylor was a. It was a Smithian Scott. It was a scholar, Adam Smith among many other things, and he particularly was a scholar of the wealth of nations. Part of Adam Smith and particularly interested in the role, the power of self interest and incentives. And I often wonder what George would have made a wick pedia. I think he would have been tempted to say as Kevin guilty of this kind of crime in my intellectual crime might pass. Well, I'm sure it doesn't exist because without incentives, if it exists, it's going to be horrible on. Of course, it's not horrible. It's quite good, and the butts lasted successfully as a as a social institution for multiple generations and we'll talk about how they maintained how the rules that they stab, help maintain their survival for as long as as did. But we should also mention that starting in the eighties and nineties, some of those, some of the more radical pieces of the started to unravel the first being the one you mentioned. Children were no longer kept apart from their parents, but then is, I would say, most if I read your book correctly of the same have have gotten rid of of of complete egalitarianism on on income, and now they're, they're smaller and they've had trouble getting the second. And third and fourth generations to stay on. You know, after after they seem had to keep them down on the farm is the expression. And that's been the challenge for the blitz movement. Israel. Yes, that's. That's right. So starting the ninety s. Many team for the first time that he still he started feet away from equal sharing as some team only had minor VA ships from the shutting Modell's, but many had moved to market forces. And now earnings Zad income is based on people's earnings. Most only twenty percent of team maintain the Gotti Terry on model. And so that's right. If it followed the it followed, I, I'm not sure if you want me to talk also more about how it came about, but that's basically right. What you're saying the chiefs away from sharing recent, the part of what I'm trying to the book strike to understand. Why did the shift when the, why did some key shift away from equal sharing and others did note, and then what are the consequences of the shift away from equal sharing? And that's all interesting, and it's maybe we'll talk about it, but I more fast Santa by what I think motivated the book from the beginning, which is that it lasted as long as it did. And just to give one more piece of the strangeness of these institutions talk about what would happen if you received a gift from an outside relative or as happened in quite dramatic fashion, the role of German reparations and how that was handled. Yes. So if they took the early days if you received from an outside source, you know and then they would would have you give the gift for the collective or a the kibbutz had the resources? Maybe they would even like by say, you've got radio, maybe with would radio for the entire key boots. And the the repression, the repairing of interest in these fascinating. The repercussions are interesting, but maybe the reparations are interesting because they kind of put the hit. It was kind of test for keyboard team. And the reason is that one of the problems as I mentioned was brain-drain. Yes. Oh people that the tendency of the more skilled people to leave the keyboards. And so as many of the kibbutz members will survive hocus revival. And at some point in the fifties, Germany paid reparations to holocaust survivors and many of them willing to keep boats. And so now they were paid for individuals not for the entire Hebrew team. But they, they had to decide whether we leave, they take the money leva whether they stay. And so and so this was it easy and so many so that he's no read amazing data on these that I can tell you exact numbers, he'll. But the story is basically that some people left but many people. Arranged the kibbutz to give them a long time. Kief dole to ensure that the Katie will go to university, but otherwise stayed in the keyboards. I think generally, for your question about how the the fascinating wish how these provide for so long, I would say the a few ingredients for this one is that having the book said, imagined conversation between a, what, if the founders of the boots. Went to an economist and they asked them, what do you think I won't have. I wanna have food equality. Why? Because I think it's the right way to go. I'm socially sitting. It's. Multo east, I want to create human being. What do you think about it? And if and if the economists had the foresight fought economics knows today, I think that what they will tell them. To basically create the key booting exactly the way they ended up creating very close to how they ended up creating it and I can. I can operate more on this. Go ahead. And so I think the first thing the first thing the economists would say is well, also beyond all these non economic reasons that you give me for white makes sense for you to create a keyboards. I think that that he's also comic sense to create a kibbutz in the sense that keyboards provides you. We've very voluble insurance, so it's a safety net insurance against any source of idiosyncratic shocks to your Incas in the kibbutz. You know that a you and your family will always be getting paid the same in especially in the world of underdeveloped insurance markets in Israel Palestine. Israel. At the time. This is a very attractive form of insurance. And of course, by the way it remains a good insurance even when insurance markets developed because. For example, there is no insurance against human copied. So you know if, for example, economics become obsolete thrust than you, I today are in trouble, but in the kibbutz, people working various different opinions and they know that even if that is less demand for patients, the people working in other locations and these like falling even against jokes to your human copied. But then of course, he would point out that as all these problems we writing and brain-drain and other selection and of incentives. And then it will say, well, the first thing that would be great for you is if you can make the people are really idealistic. So like it because idealistic people, whether it's social socialist or just people who are very committed to the idea of keyboards, people like that, they don't share. They don't fear right. They don't leave. They just stay in woke very hard. So make sure that you have an education system that convinced the later generations that this is great and make sure you have idealistic people, and so on. But do not just trust on the human nature of people to be like Eddie list because as typically happens, second and third generations will probably become less idealistic because. For them living in a key booties default rather than a choice like it was for the founders of team. And so if you want to design a system that we make sure that they are a. responding twins, they respond well to incentives. Well, let's start with the free rider problem. So we know that that he's not much motivation for people to well card. If they don't get the full Monty returns to their education, but how about social sunshine and peer pressure and and everybody familiar with people to knows that they wouldn't seat next to you in the dining hall feel perceive shirking here they can make life sufficiently miserable that you might leave. And so, but for that to work, well, you kind of need to make sure that the communities are smart enough because social sanction peer pressure are more effective in small communities. You have to make sure that there is not much privacy, so everybody knows that coming and going of people. So you know, for example, you ask my mom to until the state you ask my mom, hey, mom. When are you going to answer? Is. He says, you know, I stopped unslinging this question forty five years ago when I left the kibbutz, don't ask me where I wanna be my. I don't need to report to you what I'm doing, but indicate boots. If you want to social arches to be effective, you need to make sure that people have much privacy and that social science fiction. Everybody knows everybody. They repeated interact with one another. They go to the same school, the work in the same place they leave and so on. The also wanna have social rewards. So rather than having one leader that will take us forever, they have rotation in leadership and they rotate who is the secretary, the kibbutz manager, the farm manager to make sure that they reward people who have perceived to be bigger contributors to the to the community. And so that's kind of a free writing. What about the brain drain? Well, you know how about we make exit cost. So for example, make if all property belongs to the collective and there is. No private property. That means that it's very, very hard to leave because once you leave, you can only take review your brain, but you can take with you. You'll share of the keyboards and so lack of private property and made it more costly for people to move away from the keyboards. And then similarly, letting you study agronomy, rather than law, like put specific human capital means that you are your skills, a more valuable within the keyboards, then outside the keyboards. So ways like that and other things like these to you can only enjoy the swimming put in the local public goods if you stay in the, but if you leave you, you can't. And so they of. Making exit costly to deal with the brain problem. And of course they are well aware of the issue of adverse selection. So they are, you know, the kibbutz knows that if they open their gates to everybody, they will get this proportionately people who didn't make outside, and they are well aware of it. So they have tough screening process. If you want to join. They would not let you in. If you can't get a job into keyboards, if you can earn your own leaving. If you can be a contributor, even if they let you in, they would have a probation period of year or so an only at the end, they will decide whether you're with feet for the kibbutz and so on. So things like that, I can talk more about I and has. Fantastic. We've talked to on here. I think I think it's a Walter Williams quote, maybe it's maybe it's somebody else, but family is social since itution. It's a top down institution as well. I don't. I've said many times on the program don't sell the last cookie to the highest bidder. Among my children make an estimate of who got a treat more recently. I might decide who looks hungriest. I might let them chat for bed and gain knowledge about it, but that system works. It's it stood the test of time, the family, although it's a little bit different today than it was fifty years ago and certainly different than it was five thousand years ago. But that stood the test time. The caboose is is. It's an attempt. It was fascinating. A lot of things interesting about the book, but one of the things that's fascinating is the idea that in a way you're trying to expand the size of the family, they're the extended family concept, but not too far because those monitoring devices of lack of privacy start to break down in a larger society. A lot of those incentives start to become more important as and destructive of the Cobas it gets larger. So you extend the family. In fact, something close to the so-called Dunbar number of one hundred fifties. He might have one hundred fifty families and after that it gets quite difficult. But within that hundred fifty, you could imagine that there's something quite glorious about share your destiny was some people that you come to care about deeply or perhaps find really annoying to be around all the time. I, you know, it's obviously quite quite complicated, but that those those years of to me, it seems like it was maybe four. Two years from the around the time of the establishment, the state of Israel in eighteen forty eight till the mid eighties or so which we might call the golden years of the boats movement. It it captured the imagination of not everyone, but certainly about five percent of the popular Jewish population of Israel. And as you say, it didn't just exist in isolation. They had a big impact on the country's development and on the military and on other other aspects of society. And it's really a a marvelous little laboratory experiment in how far you can push socialist ideals. Thank you. Great points. It's it's exactly this is exactly how the way I thought about the book said in a world of Freising inequality today when saying the US I think that us number I've seen was that the top one percent owns may be thirty five forty percent of the total wealth. It's natural that many people start to think about whether and how we can create a more equal society and under what what the cost of doing so in what when when such societies will succeed in when they will fed. And so I think about the people is exactly a case study for society that went all the way to the other extreme of having everything shared fully equity, food equality. An exactly it's exactly the and that shows us some of the conditions under which can be successful and they think you touch few very important ones. So extended family, that's exactly right. One way to think about the. Extent extended feminity and this is into a large extent just like you care about your family. You can create a system in which you care about your extended family, but then it cannot go to large. And so for example, the discussions in the history of people team about whether to create instead of many small Keeble team, two hundred and sixty today you. We've about four hundred people with it makes more sense to create like one big keyboards. The many, many reasons why that will make sense. For example, that I'll return scaling the provision of, you know, it's cheaper to provide them three and foot services in larger numbers. And so like it makes some Reza and the even the insurance to be better people. We woke immoral reasons to believe that one BQ booty successful, but the always go back to know, you know, let's have many smokable Jim because we full this to work. People need to know each other. People need to care about. What others are thinking and so a and that's not only the community I shake, for example, used to speak every time they reached a certain size. And so I think the the small nature is what allows them to to work like you describe like an extended family, and as you say, even though it's not successfully many ways, but it's important to remember two things, I think to be more. I don't wanna create just a sense of how successful in the gr- grade they will. That one is that even in the days, as you mentioned, even in the days that they were successful, most kibbutz members accounted for seven percentage of the Jewish population in Israel. And so some of it you can think if you think about these, this is like a limit to how many people were interested in a mode like that even when it is acceptable at somebody at some level. The way I think about the kibbutz expire experiment. If you want, is that if people were given the choice of where. To leave, and whether they wanna leave in Nikola -tarian society a, whether they wanna leave in less egalitarian society who choose the option. And usually it's very hard to know. For example, if you take foam communist countries, they are not very useful because people could not vote against socialism and they could not exited will, but they keep puts provide you this experiment. And so seven percent, he's like as most as people would like to to join there. And the other thing is that is in the background invitation, talk about it, but I think it's important is the yes they were successful, but at the same time, the did always get governmental support. Thank you. And so, and so it's not like the they did, you know there was this implicit contract between the keyboard seem and the Jewish agency's before the creation of of the state of Israel in the governments of Israel after were that will buy keyboard seem contribute to nation buildings. But in return they get land and they get a. Subsidies in what are subsidies, and and and other ways in which they get like tax breaks and other ways. And so government support also has always been important and scenic cynical. People would say, well, you know, it was successful as long as governmental support was high. I don't think he tells the whole story, but it's definitely part of the story. So you say, by the way you say proportion, the Jewish population, the kibbutz to typically were not Arab says of Israel or residents. They were just these Jewish for whatever reason, Jewish settlers before the state was established in nineteen forty eight. And I, I don't know if you mentioned the book, but were they typically Askin? Nause that is used from Europe rather than shoes from the Arab world far. Yep. I talk about in the book that this is a very interesting because when you think about one of the things that one of the genetic lessons of the, if you don't. Is that homogeneity important? Yeah. So the founders of team, as you said, they were all Jewish, not only they were Jewish, but they were mostly if looking tire, the Jews of people who came from eastern Europe. End the and so yesterday created this society socialist community, but they were not very. Inclusive of Arabs and other Jews. In fact, they in the nineteen fifties. When Israel when more people started to come from Middle Eastern countries to Israel and the, they leave like a transitional camps around Keeble team in the prime minister at the time been grown, ask them to, you know whether they can welcome some of these people to to work with them into the dining halls. And you know, you know what the report they report that they will very welcome on the kibbutz fields, but not very much in the dining hall. And so. And so the idea is that. This is they were not very inclusive in some sense they were. They the Arab the scientist and socialist ideology oftentimes clashed with each other. So for example, from social perspective, the is a fellow workers, but from Zionist perspective is sometimes the enemy and they did not, and they did not accept Arabs to be members of course. And so it. I think the broader lesson here is that it's easier the one of the reasons why so challenging to create egalitarian society is that it said when people are homogeneous in the case of the Canarsie juice, it's easy to agree on. It's easier to have shirt preferences. It's easier to into agree on equality. It's easier to see how you could be in somebody else's shoes. If something goes wrong with him, something can go wrong with you. Then it is when people are coming from very different ethnic. Social and professional backgrounds. And so somebody, if you think about it, it's easier to understand why Norway Sweden will the petition arguably is more Maginnes. It's easier to sustain a welfare state then United yet. Then he's in the United States, for example, now it's a great. It's a great point. I'm going to add another type of homogeneity thinks really important, and you talk about it in the book and elaborate on it, which is when when the state of Israel was established in nineteen forty eight, when cheers were arriving before that it was a very poor country, and it was a very undeveloped country and the people who came came out of religious passion or nationhood passion, and they came to try to create something, and that was an unbelievable idealism in those days in the nineteen forties and fifties in Israel. And it was primarily an agricultural place. So there weren't a lot of choices in ways to express. Yourself outside of arming and services, of course. But as Israel has become by the nineteen nineties, perhaps the premier high tech innovative country in the world per capita, the the idea of staying on the farm is radically less appealing. And so if Israel had stayed poor agricultural economy, I think where the options were relatively homogeneous for the members of the society did. The complex would have stayed closer to seven or ten Caribbean, even conceivably, right? But today's world really tough. Exactly, right. So so the first is an, he's. He's only what you mentioned, but also he's got -tarian society at first. And so yes, he may be easy to understand why when people came to county full of uncertainty. Full of ideology and they and the outside option of members were not that great. A key boots is something that is attractive entities, but once said. Keyboard, say once once returns to skills increase in the height, as you mentioned the high ticket boom of Israel, the nine hundred ninety s now very skilled kibbutz members have great outside options. It's the, they might be lured by into the city much more than they were before. And so at some level, these changes in the. Surrounding the which into in Israel as a whole made the living in the kibbutz less attractive. The part of the that is may be the most difficult to the most impressive and keyboard survival to me is not the very beginning and not the inevitable. If you want to shift away from equal sharing the returns to skate increase so much the rest of Israel, but it's those years. Well. Do you see by the seventies. It's not the case most of what we're doing his agriculture, they have of them had if each of them at least has one successful factory and they have the, they have large presence in industry. They produce more than their share of the of the of the products in industry and rubber and plastic. They have an at the same time. They are no longer as homogeneous as they used to be before. This is no second and third generation. And by the second and third generation ideology wasn't as strong as the founding generation. And yet a keyboard seem a point. We're still basically fully sharing. Many of them were still doing quite well. It is dead period that is a that is interesting. And and one of the things that I find that that head up in this period is you see being being reach is hurtful. And so. So if you become a when the bulls is reach, for example, then you can imagine why even if people are very talented and they can earn more outside why they might be tempted to stay because the average is good enough and all this wing dining hall, and it's a great place to raise kids. The reasons why is staying is attractive even for talented people. Once the even though the keyboard you can perhaps you outside option is relatively high, but it is exactly so you can think about it. I think about Norway, for example, being reaches headed for maybe to maintain that if to the extent to keep booties all instructive for some, you know, for for other societies, if you think about no way, it's easier to sustain a big state and you gotta -tarian when you're reaching up. But in the kibbutz, once there was a financial crisis that teat them and want some cable. Seem to reduce the reading standards. You can see the Turkey team of the first shift away from equal sharing. And so it raises the question of like to what extent being reach is helpful in maintaining the equality. I wanna talk about a related point. Which is that we're talking about the incentives that if you could leave the caboose and go to the city, you might make a lot more money. I, there's also a non monetary aspect to it that you don't stress much in the book, but I think it's it's, it's a big part of it also, which is what I think of the opportunity to to flourish to thrive to apply your your skills in creative and satisfying ways. And again, speaking about my own short experience on Kabbah, which was my only agriculture experience by life. By the way, I found picking peaches to be remarkably boring. There was a box factory if I remember correctly that I could've worked at, but there wasn't a lot of economics instruction. So if I want to be an economist, I would have to leave the Kabun. So if your skill set doesn't lend itself to what I would call, you know, aspects of Banya labor or certain limited types of. Innovation, you point out there, some innovations and air culture that would have led, and that's, you know, that's, that's nice. But if that's not your thing, you're kinda outta lock and the other benefits as abuts the raising children in nice ways in the Galateri part of it. If that appeals to you is what you're left with. So. For reacted, ask you a question about about education. So I talk about in the book a little bit. It's it's you're absolutely right one of the things that might be troubling about leaving the kibbutz. And one of the reasons why my if, for example, he's exactly that she failed. Individualism was discouraged and you are encouraged to conform to the to the normal saying that the Cuba UK system is kind of like it's kind of like the loan. When these below the everage they pull you up when he's above, they will push you down. And so in this sense, the recite picking oranges, he's not something that he's appealing to everybody. However, I would say that Israel, the Cuban seem in recent years and even like a, not exactly like you remember them from Europe channel. It's not the end, but even even more more than just before the shift away from me sharing there is a substantial these it used to be that all members work inside the keyboards, and it was useful in. For for like from the economic perspective, it's a useful look in device you what you're outside options and so on. But they realized that this also discouraged individualism that some people just leave because they think that they cannot. The, you know you wanna be an economic professor then yeah, and if they let you maybe you will leave and indeed the academy in high, he's full of former kibbutz members. But at some point, many members, it's no longer the case that everybody all members walk inside the keyboards is substantial number right now about twenty twenty five percent of people working outside of the books they would. And so in the times when it was still equal sharing, it would be that the member would work outside. He would say your professor in the Hebrew University, and then you bring your Saturday to the kibbutz, and then it is shared equally among members, but you can work outside the keyboards, what it is true is that once he puts him started to let people work outside to keep boats now, they are also more likely to leave. So keyboard seem always had this. Tough trade of to make between on the one hand as employers, they wanted. People could be skilled on the one hand, but the also wanted to keep them on the other hand, extended family, you want your son to go to study whatever they want, not just what you tell them to. And so they did overtime become more allowed more individual freedom in the choice of what to work in what to do. It's not exactly like the early days when you when people with all peak oranges. I'm gonna critique my view for second, which is that my son is currently in Israel on a gap year program, and he spent some time this week on break and was visiting farm, and he's as that may work on a farm for year and and that's, of course he's not alone there. There. I know many children of my of our friends who has now teenagers or young adults want to do something agricultural, either out of the. Personal returns and experience of of being close to where you make you produce food or because I think they want to do it and more sustainable way 'cause I don't wanna over. I don't wanna under romanticize agricultural because I think there is they're always going to be people who find that that lifestyle appealing. And again, we're talking about a small group, but what what I want to turn to now is is the idea of inculcation of of ideology, the educational roll, the bullets, and one way to think about the changes that took place over the last twenty five years is that the educational system could not convinced the children and grandchildren of the original regional cookbooks. Knicks the founders of the caboose movement. To find it appealing. And I want to describe it in a way that you describe it in the book, which I think really powerful, which is when when you when you stay in Kabul it's or when you go out and work outside the butts, but keep your earnings within the butts you're, you are voluntarily choosing a one hundred percent tax rate, the art, turning everything over to the to the not to the state, but to the organization that you've chosen to to belong to. And of course you're also the beneficiary of the anything that the other people bring in and you can think of the winners radio birth of Certa too ideological appeals there to educational things that you tell your children if you wanted them to stay. One would be the insurance aspect of imagine if things go bad. If you get to say, bold, if you become poor, if your job becomes less profitable than it was and pays less, you'll be taken care of. That's a nice and. You'll have the opportunity to take care of others and you'll be in this shared enterprise. The second part, this idea that we're all equal human beings. There's something deeply appealing about that. And you know Hayek talks about it in the fatal concede. He says, we have this natural impulse to take the structures, the family which are held together love and extend them into the larger society says that's the road to to tyranny. And if we take the, what do you call the extended or the macrocosm the market and bring that into the family, we destroy the family and the to me the, the beauty of the courts intellectually philosophically is that it recognized that they were there in a state where meaning Israel, where there was a huge socialist full Sophal bent already, but they wanted to do it in a way that that was less ambitious and they still failed and into some extent. And to me the question is it they could not inculcate in their children and grandchildren. A romance that would help overcome the incentives that make challenge. In other words, you know, you can. Incentives can be very powerful, but if you care deeply about the ideals of the complex, you'll be happy to turn yourself your come over to to the to the communal wellbeing of of the group. But if you don't have that, it's hell and obviously the Soviet system failed utterly were currently talking about in the first circle and socialists in for those who who've been reading that book as part of our book club, that ideal of new human being totally failed. But it seems that it even struggled to this modest extended family model, one hundred to two hundred families in in this his Rayleigh setting, and they total control the education of these kids. They had limited understanding what was going on outside, and yet they still struggle to to make it appealing for each for those you generations. So though many things you're right about, I think you're right that it's a the one of the reason why has been so appealing to members into an invite. Got so much attention in Israel in the world. Is that the something about us humans that to want to care about other people and find? Nope, over tea and and caring about others very appealing to the practical aspects of difficult. But the idea of having of carrying about just give you an example. You know, my, you know, my grandmother. Ilva that us seven years of life here that Alzheimer, and she died with the kind of care and compassion that money can't buy. And and and this is something that is was amazing the way that she was treated in the keyboards, and you know that many reasons for two, it's all about caring about others. And so on. The other one is more conomic economic said it'll be if you think about equal sharing, imagine that ULA person that is the test, the tendency to want to do something that is very to care about, say to become a nurse will become a teacher, but also very talented. So maybe in the city you tell yourself, well, you know, becoming the revoked trader would be much more beneficial for me financial even though I wanna be a nurse or a teacher, but the the kibbutz being nurse teacher does not have negative financial, close it. So he trucks people that the very good to do these kind of jobs and that. And I would say that a lot of the. Education. The other thing I would say that is that why you very right that and I discussed in the book that the UK should system despite trying was not able to instill the same idee strong idealism. As the fresh generation to the second and third generation differently ideology decline. And and indeed this was one of the reasons why keep what team eventually she away from equal sharing. I would say that I, you know, you mentioned the word they failed. I wouldn't call it that way. So to me, it depends on how you define a keyboards. If the final Kieburtz as a society in which community in which everything is shared equally, then yes, maybe two largest and they fail and only twenty percent of them are still based on fully sharing, but the vast majority shifted away from equal sharing. However, even keep team, the chief away from equal sharing. They are still based on the much more equality than society around them than than a random neighborhood in Israel. And Yep and Utah, Ed an assistance and caring about others in an sense of community is still very strong in Cuba team. And so even reform Keeble team, nice communities will people care about. Mutual Eddie's is a building block. The other. The other reaction I have is that you also write about. It's almost like you think about it more fuel selfie cut away. Then. You think you so you mentioned the Soviet yet, so it's not surprising that when you try to do this on a very large scale and you want to on the even have good intentions and you wanna have, typically it's the right thing to do, and because it's great insurance and whatever, because of all these incentive problems, you kind of need to find ways to solve incentive programs. And so one way to solve them if you're leaving Russia cohorts, if you try to exit k. to you. Well, that's a great incentive to never leave, but it's not very interesting. And so it's not surprising that. Often places the try to be like socially star, like a totalitarian, and they put big restrictions on the ability of people to move on how much media and information knowledge they get from the outside world. What's nice about the key would see me is that they, they try to do it without such measures as you pointed out some byproducts are you know that he's much privacy and it can be a head of because you have it said it does not encourage individual freedom of choice. And so it's the these will it points to the cost that you have to somehow solve incentive problems. And if you wanna do it in a voluntary, you have to construct mechanisms that will deal with these problems. And sometimes they are ones that most of us don't like, say lack of privacy, and that's why it's only been seven percent of the Israeli population can only be found in Israel, although by the way, if you are me, you. Risk think team everywhere. You know why you don't see them exactly as the are to me every time you see a revenue sharing agreement, even if it's professional partnerships, so village economies in developed countries, economic departments, or you see elements of of Cuba team. Yeah, I wanna come back to something you said I thought it was was very provocative about if you can be a derivative straighter that that you know, that raises the cost of being a nursery teacher. If you live in say Tel-Aviv, but on the kibbutz, it's not such a big, it's such a difference. So the monetary ask, the financial aspect gets taken out the other part. I think that's interesting. And I love your reaction to this is the status part. So we don't spend enough time. I think talking economics about status and some of the other non monetary aspects of life and and work experience. So if you become a derivatives trader successful and you get a fan. Car and you live in a fancy house and people look up to you. They envy you brab in you feel special and you feel important. And I've always said that having spent a good chunk of my life as a teacher, I was, I always think I'm been very blessed to be able to do that. When I started doing it, it was very expensive. I gave up a lot of income in nineteen eighty to be a teacher less. So now I'm not literally a teacher anymore, but throws to my career, the mount, the cost of me staying as a teacher, then rather, say, industrial economist or financial condoms. The financial sector got smaller over time, but I always enjoyed the non monetary aspect of it, but but what's the? But it happens to be the case that college professors, the United States get a lot of honor and they get a lot of prestige and it's, it's considered a, it's considered somewhat special. Maybe I'm too looting myself up. My listeners will correct me, but I think schoolteacher and sometimes nurse doesn't quite get. That status and high school teacher, say, and nursing doesn't get the status. And I think there's something really interesting about the ability again, limited of the caboose to instill respect across different occupations unrelated to the monetary compensation. Exactly. So so the first before I would start by saying, it's a shame that the teachers nurses don't get because I think they should. They have some of the most important work that day that we have to. The other thing is that the yes, many of us do a lot of things for the non monetary returns aspect in some sense one way in which would seem where successful he's in exactly make its highest to to be a nurse. That is so smart that you knew that she could have been at the river trader, but chose to be a nerd instead, how amazing is that as opposed to just a a go for something that is really only more beneficial for you? It's almost like the way Stuttle swaps in the kibbutz is interesting. It's almost like being a big fish, small pond, people who are who have leadership skills are really highly appreciated impart this is because you know that they can do other things, but they still chose to stay there into concrete their time in the celery to the others. In fact, as shifted away from equal sharing some of that started to disappear because you're like. Of course, now you'll become a now. You are money, but I don't respect you as much because you mostly get to keep you rather than share it with everybody else. So status is an interesting thing. Why do we have starts such high status to for the river tive traitors, not for nurses. It's a, it's. It's not clear and Nikki boot. It's kind of almost like the other way around, although lately, since two thousand eight that the river traders aren't doing so well either on the import. Remember I wanna make an argument that for the economists are listening, and I think the non economists will understand it. I hope understand as well. So I loved your examples. So you're capable of being a financial and some kind of trader investor and you choose instead to do the less lucrative more quote, caring profession. And of course, some people in economics call that quote inefficient, meaning. It doesn't maximize the financial size of the pine. I just wanna make the claim that that's a total misunderstanding to me of the human enterprise. The goal of life is not to make the pies big as possible. It matters it mad at your Sandra living matters, but it's not the only thing. I think a lot about one of the great minds, two of the greatest minds of time, which would be gas and Newton gal spent the last years of his life as a surveyor. His notebooks, which I think the nobody left, I think, had sixteen pages. It was became more than fertile and an incredible achievements of band tradition studied for a long time. He created the normal distribution, which is also the Cousy and distribution. He made incredible contributions to statistics and math, and at the end of his life, he wanted to serve air Newton at the end of his life, wanted to try to figure out what the the celestial spheres music that they made when when they rotated, which is the way peace ought of planetary orbits he was a, he was a mystic. And so here these two great talents that were so inefficient, they should have been doing x. wires. And the answer to that is less all the matters. It's really not all that matters at all. And I think the I don't wanna go the other way and say that you know the Steve Jobs just because he's rich, didn't accomplish much church b.'s Oeser others. I think at the same time, we often underestimate the human contribution that we do measure in financial terms that people make LeBron. James is very wealthy because he makes a lot of people happy, and I don't want to understate the value of that his contribution to making the world a better place. At the same time, there's something really beautiful about the carrier mother received, and I don't want to say that you can't put a price on it, but I'm close to say that. Yes. You're right, you're right that that he's not more than just moxie money thing. I would say that the couple of things that I learned at least from from thinking about team for a long time and one of them is that. I started this whole project by just writing a series of paper of favors do maybe maybe a Columbia consent stop at Dickey's skate. So maybe east brain drain, is there other selection is the free writing is the lack of investment in the answer. Overall answer that I get is the basically economic incentives matter. So definitely the more educated than skill, the more likely to leave and people who who earn less more likely to seek twenty records and so on. But at some level, those negative economic incentives, we're not nearly as devastating as comic Serey would suggest no parts of because the key would seem designed exactly social incentives to deal with them. But other things, for example, think about the about that Eucation so keyboards members, nevertheless, educated than the population as a whole, even in the period there was full equal sharing. So the idea that. For example, people study hard because of the financial because of the financial returns to their investment is maybe the kibbutz navy would suggest that it's overstated. People studied not less educated population as a whole, even in the period of food equal sharing. Of course, they had different education. Of course, maybe few of them went to more advanced degrees and more of them, but at the same time than had basic education so that Celt and, uh, speaking, which incentives matter. But it's not all about economic incentives, but I would make an like another point. I would make that something again more speculation than these. Based on like data, but if you think imaging, it's not even clear one hundred percent to me that. That when you even if you focus on maximizing the total pie, think about the following us of the keep was the one that we talked about. The nurse that these getting more imagine it. You think that some acute patients have Haya social values than others see mentioned that you convince yourself that the that the somehow nurses and teachers have Haya social values than they've by the way. I don't mean to peak on traitors at all. If it's just like the thing that's come you call, let's call them computer programmers, God, no. And so if that's the case and they got -tarian system, we encourage people to study more to go more for patients with higher social Vialli returns. But Lowell, private returns than even the the total ties. I now I'm not sure I didn't think about these long enough. I think that he's a recent paper by by Glen wild trying to formalize. I think that point, but it. It could be that that it I can imagine a world in which. Encouraging you to study something with high social value, but low low private value actually increase the size of the, oh, and we always say properly defined. So if you think the pie, whatever that means is just the pile of stuff, the goods and services, obviously, that isn't what we wanna make as big as possible. Wanna make human satisfaction, human flourishing. Human experience is what matters. And so if you define the, you know the love that your grandmother received as important, which of course it is when she had Alzheimer's that counts, we can't measure it. Does it get monetary price on it could if she had been hired out to a really expensive nurse. But as you point out times nurse that does the best job is that the one that's paid the most. So that's important. It is important. The thing is the thing is that we also have to think practically about, you know, we all would like to leaving the world, but everybody is everybody's reaching everybody is a equal and so on. But we so the book. Think points to on the one hand beauty and the things that are about equal sharing. And but at the same time, trying to be practical about some of the costs that come along the way by trying to make sure that incentive problems are being solved. And those those incentive problems either way. Reminded me a lot is a mentioned for listeners who might have who might remember this very similar to the work of Elinor Ostrom. Elinor Ostrom looked at the trashy, the comments where people said, well, if you have a comments, it's going to be overgrazed. You have a fishing ground that's doesn't have ownership. It's going to be overused in which he showed is that in small societies very similar to about sim, there was monitoring devices that these people that the people involved in this created to to reduce the natural incentives of despoiling and and overfishing and over-grazing that would be there in the apps. You know, I think the other aspect of the boats which I really like, and if your book is that it's a, it's a textbook, example of what's wrong with text books. The textbook says, this can exist that Cam solve the incentives. Well, they all they knew it or not. They evolve such that they figured out ways to reduce the power, those incentives? Yes. You know the interesting you mentioned Colin property. This is one thing that usually communal property and private property, something these associated with bed stuff. Interestingly, for the kibbutz, this turned out to be useful because it solve the problem of fair. It creates created. It served as a bond that made it costly for people to exit at some level that that is one aspect that you can think of as if you want cost or of having. If you want to really maintain a society that is fully pushing the kibbutz KOMO property was very important because I the fact that you couldn't take it with you. Once you exit allowed. The key puts to maintain a higher degree of equality without experience massive brain drain of the most members because it helped as looking device. But it is another example like Vesey. Vesey at so think so. Imagine the founders of the keyboards. Okay. Imagine you come to the kibbutz. You really want to have equality. You think it's fabulous, but you worry that eventually people might, you know, young and everybody shows similar prospects, but you know that that some points people, some people will turn out to be super talented and productive, and they might want to leave because they have increasing sent to move to the city and earn premium for the ability. And what do you say? Why don't become so ultraviolet property? Everything. We'll give everything we have to the collective. And when we exit, we can't take it with us. You know, guess what happens now when people realize they have, they are talented and they wanna live well. But at that point they can take their that. He's no private property. These things. If no savings they have nothing. So if they leave, they can take the brain with them, but they can't take the share of the person that makes exit cost and allow people to commit to a higher degree of equality without losing the most active individuals. So somehow lack of private property as a as a bond that allow a higher degree of quality without brain drain is something that, but again, just like lack of privacy, something, many people maybe find too costly, too costly to maintain their high degree of equality. My guest today has been Ron permit sqi. His book is the mystery of the caboose, Ron. Thanks for being part of come talk. Thanks for having me Russ. This is econ- talk part of the library of economics, liberty for Maury, contact econ, talk dot org, where you can also comment on today's podcast and find links readings, religious, today's conversation. The sound engineer, free cock, rich yet. I'm your host. Russ Roberts, thanks for listening. Talk to you on Monday.

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Forgiveness - Gospel of Matthew Part 26

Exploring My Strange Bible

57:45 min | 2 years ago

Forgiveness - Gospel of Matthew Part 26

"Golden. Hey, everybody. I'm Tim Mackey. And this is my podcast exploring, my strange bible. I am a card carrying bible history and language nerd who thinks that Jesus of Nazareth is utterly amazing and worth following with everything that you have on this podcast and putting together the last ten years worth of lectures and sermons whereas been exploring the strange and wonderful story of the bible, and how invites us into the mission of Jesus and the journey of faith. And I hope this can be helpful for you to. I also helped start this thing called the bible project. We make animated videos and podcasts about all kinds of topics and bible theology could find those resources at the bible project dot com with all that said, let's dive into the episode for this week. All right. We'll in this episode. We're going to keep exploring the gospel. According to Matthew these were teachings that I gave a number of years ago when I was a pastor at door of hope church in Portland, we took a couple years to slowly work through the gospel. According to Matthew and our Sunday gatherings at this point. We were Matthew chapter eighteen and we slowed down and camped out in this chapter in the framework of the whole story of Jesus. This teaching is an aside on the road trip that Jesus made up from where he grew up in Galilee northern Israel Palestine and the down to Jerusalem, and he's trying to give his closest followers their final step of like education about life in living in the kingdom of God that he said was arriving in himself and in his mission specifically in Matthew eighteen he's trying to guide the disciples his followers in what it looks like to live. Out the upside down value system, the ethical value system of the kingdom in our personal relationships. And in our relational conflicts that we have with one another within the church within the community of his followers. This is so practical, and this particular passage were focusing on is about one of Jesus most important and practical teachings. Like out of everything he ever said about forgiveness for Jesus forgiving other people when they wrong, you is the hallmark feature of what it means to follow him. It's it's what you lead with. It's so important to him. And so how you deal with relational conflicts, and forgive other followers of Jesus when they wrong, you this was crucial, and so he dedicated a whole detailed teaching towards it. These words of Jesus have often been misunderstood and therefore abused in how they're put into practice. And so the goal goal. What I'm doing is just trying to help us really hear what Jesus was trying to say the the best of my -bility to understand that. And then what it looks like to implement that. How forgiveness is different from reconciliation. And how forgiveness can be something that you do but have to continue to foster and, cultivate, over time, it's this is one of the most complicated things. We do. Humans is forgive each. Other win win we wrong one another. And so there you go. I hope this is impactful for you as it was for me. And it continues to challenge me as I just think about my own life and relationships. So there you go. Let's open our minds at hearts and divan together. Matthew chapter eighteen of verse twenty one. Then Peter came to Jesus, and he asked Lord how many times should I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me up to seven times. Jesus answered I tell you know, not seven times seventy seven times. Therefore the kingdom of heaven. It's like this. It's like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And as he began the settlement. There was a man there who owed him ten thousand bags of gold now right here begs of gold. I've got in the new international anybody else. Talent. Yes. For some reason at some of our translations they've just chosen not to translate that ancient Greek word for you. You're like what the talent talent is just an enormous amount of money the normal amount of money. So you probably have a footnote right there or you can look in the back, you know, about your table of weights and measures in the back of every printed bible you've ever had their table of weights and measures. You can do the conversion or read the enormous amount of money. So my footnote tells me that one talent was worth about twenty years of your average blue collar workers wages, so just do the math. We're talking. This is the point at the parable where you laugh that's two hundred like it's like you said zillions there's nothing like that. Right. So zillions verse twenty four he began the settlement a man who owed him zillions of dollars was brought to him. Since he wasn't able to pay right? The man ordered that he and his wife and his children all that. He had be sold to repay the deaths. Very common practice in Jesus day. At this. The servant fell on his knees before him, please be patient with me, he begged I'll pay back everything. Right. Right. The servants master, however took pity on him or some of your translations have little bit better English had had compassion on him. He canceled the debt and let him go. Now when that servant went out. He found one of his fellow servant who owed him a hundred silver coins. An IV some your translations have a hundred. Because they just know that you know, exactly what that means. Right. So a couple thousand dollars. Let's just say. Sorry, lost my place. Okay. So here we go when that serve out he found. Another fellow servant, go to one hundred a couple thousand dollars. He grabbed that servant. He began to choke him pay back. What you owe me you demanded the fellow servant also fell to his knees and begged him be patient with me, I will pay it back, but he refused. Instead, he went off, and he had that man thrown into prison until he could pay back his debt because a great way to get a job in money is by being thrown into prison. Right. When the other servants saw what had happened they were out rage. Just like, you would be and they went and told their master everything that happened. So the master called the servant in you wicked servant, he said, I can't sold all that. Debt of yours because you begged me to shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just like I had mercy on you. And so angry the master handed him over to the jailers or some of your translations have to torturers. There's a debate there about the meaning of the word until he could pay back everything that he owed. Jesus. This is how my heavenly father will deal with you unless you forgive your brother sister from your heart. The words of Jesus. We're talking about forgiveness today. Crystal clear, what we're talking about, isn't it forgiveness. And this is one of those topics where you might of read that it'd be like, wow, really glad I don't harbor anything towards anybody in my heart. And let's just see how you feel. Once we explore the words a little bit more. But I I just speaking from my own personal experience. I've only been in pastoral ministry for six years. But in the six years, if I were to say, one of the most common conversations that I've had with people around here and other church, and Wisconsin that I worked at before. It's the it this topic right here of resolved conflicts, unresolved hurts and pain from people who have heard us and the life long struggle to forgive people. And for Jesus forgiveness was. One of the key watchwords of his whole movement. You know, think of the daily prayer that he taught his disciples to pray every single day in terms of our father in heaven. If you haven't said the Lord's prayer yet today. Let's just do it right now. Yes. Just to pray daily. So here we go our father in heaven. How would be your name may your kingdom? Come may your will be done here on her as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. And if you're the King James for the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. So Jesus Jesus thought forgiveness was so vital to the movement of the kingdom. And what he was here to do. He he wanted us to remind ourselves daily in prayer that forgiveness is at the heart beat of what it means to follow Jesus. And that somehow God's forgiveness me is directly tied to my ability to release forgiveness out to others as well. There's this organic connection between the two and you can see that right here. In in the parable. Apparently Jesus takes our inability to forgive or our ability to forgive like really seriously, really really seriously. And so and this doesn't stand alone. Either think through the flow of where we've been been calling this the road trip part of the gospel, so far so Jesus is on this road trip is on his way to Jerusalem, and he's trying to tell us this libels. He's going there not to kick out the Romans or kill anybody. But actually to be killed in to die on behalf of Israel sins in the sense of the world and the disciples don't get it. And so they fundamentally misunderstand Jesus. They misunderstand what it means to follow him. And so member this whole teaching chapter eighteen began we've been here for a month began with them asking Jesus, what does it take to be the most important person right in the kingdom and Jesus it's like oh boy. Wow. Wow. So he'd actually doesn't even say anything what he does. He gets a child right and put a small child right in the middle of the whole crowd. And he says be like this. Very powerful visual parable. He begins this teaching with visual parable. Now. He's ending this chapter with spoken parable. And and so that I have to reckon without like, what does that mean about demoting myself about humility? Right independence and trust. And then Jesus warned us he says if we're called to to become new different kinds of humans being born again, like little children would a means that this is a community where we're likely going to hurt each other as we grow and try and mature followers of Jesus remember he had a teaching about warning us about the character flaws. That are in us that hurt other people until he warned us about that. And then he gave us really concrete tools of what to do when we heard each other about conflict resolution and dressing each other. When we hurt one another and are sending and not follow those what Josh was exp-. During last week. And so then all of that prompts the question we are going to hurt each other. Here's tools for how to deal with conflict when we do hurt each other. And so then here we go Peter comes up to Jesus, and he's like Jesus, let's give practical here. So what what are you actually asking me to do how how many times if another disciple of Jesus in the church community to straight up rungs me? How much do I have to put up with? And it's clear like by saying seven times he thinks he's really being generous here like seven times, and we all go. Wow. That's only do two or three something. But that's the point is Peter. Do you see that here? Peter thinks he's actually impressive Jesus with this large number seven seven times. And Jesus is like no not seven Peter. I think oh Jesus say four. Not seven not seven Peter. And then typical Jesus he just flips everything on its head seventy seven times seventy seven times. Whatever that means. We'll talk about what it means is for Jesus is this a debate about math. Is this really about math and keep like seventy six? Here we go. Finally, we're almost there to the limit like, obviously, not obviously not. And there's a really this is really brilliant clever would is doing here. This is Jewish bible geek humor that it's absolute best right here. This is actually one of my favorites. All the gospels. So the numbers seven and seventy seven occur close together in a in a single story in the bible and only two places entire bible, and this is one of them. So there's only one other place in the bible that Jesus is connecting to buy the seven seventy do. You know, anybody crate bible trivia? In Genesis chapter four, there's a there's a story you probably are familiar with this story. There's a story about two brothers. And one of the brothers is jealous. As with his brother jealous with his jealous against jealous of. Thank you. Jealous of. Yeah. That's right. That's right. He's jealous of his brother. It's early. And I'm blind from the light in the window. Okay. Genesis chapter four the story about two brothers. One is jealous of his brother. And you remember what he does in response to a jealousy? God remember got what's what's the jealous? Brothers name. Cain, right? And the other brother Abel and God God, addresses Cain. He's like be careful. Right. This jealousy. This this sin towards anger and violence. It's growing within you. It's like an animal crouching at your door. It's can devour you if you don't deal with it. And he doesn't deal with it. He gives in to it in the any murders his brother in the field. The story goes on from there that came he's banished from the land. And then he goes, and he builds a city that he names after his son. Doc. And then that city were told goes five generations in growing five generations, and like founder like city, it becomes a place that you would never want to live never want to live and Genesis chapter four describes that by showing what life is like. And what the people of caned city are like, and it gives us a little vignette of a guy named les MEC and Lameck is a poet because he sings one of the first poems in the bible, and it's a little poem about how much of he is he talks about how there was a young man that he ran into the young man tried to pick a fight with him. And he just murdered him on the spot. And he things about how proud he is of it. And he says I didn't just give seven times the vengeance. On this young, man. I'm seventy seven times the vengeance. I killed him. There. The poem not just seven times the revenge, but seventy seven times, and that's the story that Jesus alludes to to begin his teaching on forgiveness. Now, just stop just stop. And think about what he's doing. So what whatever forgiveness is. And we'll explore that whatever forgiveness is doing something that's really countered to our nature. Really? I mean, if someone just think of a simple situation of like, a fistfight or something like, you, don't you're you don't even have to command your body to begin to respond in defense or retaliation with somebody like attacks. You your body is just going to do that. Right. It's the fight or flight thing. It's like it's wired into us. It's our nature our nature if somebody wrongs us, you get them back. That's what we do. And so Lameck becomes in Jewish tradition in the bible becomes like this Pitta me of human nature. You wrong me all wrong you back, but even more because you're lame. And I hate you. And I'm back, you know that limit right? And it's the spiral of revenge and violence and so on. And so Jesus Jesus allude to that story. Peter s him like, okay. Okay. Jesus. Like we're supposed to be like children, and we're becoming new kinds of humans. And so we address the ways that we heard each other. And when we do hurt each other we deal with it in a really healthy way that involves the community. But like how what's the limit Jesus? Like at what point does do we go back to the way things were and Jesus Jesus says the kingdom of God is a completely different deal. You already know what human nature does lay met and the spiral of human history. Spins out of that. We aren't we don't have to explain that to anybody. We live in that world. And so Jesus is saying that somehow forgiveness is the sign of a new and different kind of humanity and his followers are to be like lay MEC, but with a different practice. Something that's not our nature. If Lameck is about like, unbridled revenge Jesus followers to become unbridled with mercy. And unrivaled with this ability to forgive is very powerful. Jesus is doing right here. And so it raises the question. That's the topic of that conversation that I've had with so many people here at door of hope and just my few years of pastoral ministry. There's almost no topic that has come up more in just getting to know people in our stories around here is how how do you deal with people that hurt you? Because what if what if you do Jesus said what if you go talk to the person who to you? And what if they don't care or what what do you do? If you go and talk to the person who hurt you, and they do care, and they say they're sorry. But you're you're not quite sure that they're sorry enough. And the begins eat away at you. What do you do if someone's wrong you, and you don't have the chance to go talk to them about it because they've passed away or because they've moved away or because time has created such a huge gap. It just it's going to be way too painful to bring this up. Again. What do you do with someone who has actually apologized to you? But you just can't get over. It. Anybody anybody have you ever had a personal conflict with any human before? Then you then there you go. Then Jesus addressing you. If your disciple, if you're one of his followers, and apparently Jesus wants his followers to live as a sign of the kingdom as a sign of the new humanity and a different way of being human beings, which means becoming lay MEC like in our ability to forgive and show mercy. And so here, here's what what I'd like to do. I must never do this kind of thing. But because I've had this conversation. So many times I want to pretend that we're having a Cup of coffee, and that way, I can have about three hundred and fifty cups of coffee right here in one in one setting. And because what does it mean to forget seventy seven times, what does that even mean? And I found personally, and then just whatever in pastoral ministry, this Jesus teachings on forgiveness are the really easy to misunderstand. Their often miss. Applied and there's sometimes even abused in a way that hurts people even more than they already are. And so I just wanted to two things is to clarify. What Jesus does not mean by forgiveness? So that we can become crystal clear on what Jesus does mean by this unlimited capacity to forgive that we're supposed to show for following Jesus. And what I usually never do is put up lists. But I'm gonna put up a list just simply because I wanna make this as crystal clear as possible. Here's what I wanna do. We hear this teaching about like not seven times seventy seven times unlimited really unlimited forgiveness. And so we hear that. And I think one of the most basic misunderstandings that people have of Jesus words here is I call it. The the doormat misunderstanding of Jesus teachings on forgiveness, which is basically, well, if I forgive somebody Jesus is basically asked me to just lay down and keep taking it and take it again, take the wrong, again, whatever doesn't matter. Forgive and forget, just take it and hope that Jesus will bring Justice one day. And I you don't need to know lick of Greek your need to know a bit of ancient history. You just need to know how to read English and in the next ten minutes, you'll see how absolutely wrong that is forgiveness. Does mean something, but it doesn't mean laying down become. Coming someone else's doormat to stump. All over you. With me last week. Josh talked about this passage look up in Matthew chapter eighteen just the words right before this one, right? Look up in verse fifteen remember, what Jesus said to do if within the community of disciples, another brother sister is sinning and here, we would we would be talking about a case where they sit against you. You remember what Jesus said to do? So first thing you do. You talk to them. You don't have a prayer meeting about them. And you don't you don't just move into denial and just say, well, I'm supposed to forgive. And so just let it go. And you don't do anything about. No, you talk to them out of love for them out of love for them and love for the community you talk to them. And if they don't listen to you and don't care and on what they did. What do you do? Then. You get somebody else you get someone else in the community who knows them and also loves and cares about them. And then you go talk to that person. And then what do you do if they still won't went up to what they've done to you. You go back with even more people. Just either you bring it to the broader church community. Whatever is the network of relationships and support around this person's, and then you have another. So whatever here's Jesus just told us to do this when we hurt each other. But then somehow we code to the next paragraph, and we think forgive seventy seven times, I guess I'm just supposed to take it and suffer insolence. Either Jesus is talking about two sides of his mouth or we're not good readers of English. We need to learn how to put these teachings together. And when you do. Jesus teachings on forgiveness. Don't become less intense. I think they actually become more powerful and realistic and more personal. So the list I never preached from lists because I'm already bored by the time, I'm halfway through the list. But but but I again, just for clarity. I have found that working through this as a helpful exercise. So pretend route three hundred fifty cups of coffee right now. So so for Jesus whatever forgiveness means, can it mean that when somebody wrongs you you simply ignore it. And you overlook it can Jesus means that. Well, apparently, not because what's the first thing. You're supposed to do when somebody wrongs you in the church community. What do you do? You talk to them. Any of you have heard the phrase forgive and forget or the idea that that love will simply overlook people when they wrong you. Love will cover level cover someone's wrong against you. When you go through the process of forgiveness. But love does not overlook. Whatever Jesus means it's exactly the opposite of ignoring or forgetting, and it certainly not condoning, many people think that forgiveness means I'm actually treating what they did to me as if it's not a big deal, and like it doesn't matter. No, it's a huge deal. And of course, it matters. That's why you talk to them because they because out of love for them. And like man if they don't realize that this is how they're treating people out of love for the community. If they treat me this way. Then odds are they're going to be treating lots of other people this way. And maybe like I'm off my rocker. Maybe I'm just taking this personally. So it actually helps to get another person involved. Jesus says here so that by the testimony of of more than one witness because maybe I'm the one that's wrong. I need someone to point that out to me thinking too clouded here. But whatever we're doing we're not we're not doing any of those first four things. Right. They're not ignoring or forgetting, we're not condoning or excusing you guys with me here. This is very it's a very simple observation, but it took someone else to point it out to me before I realize what forgiveness was what it was not forgiveness. Whatever forgiveness means it also does not mean, tolerating or allowing further wrong doing or abuse. And I actually think this is one of one of the most common. Misunderstandings and abuses of Jesus teaching here. How many times am I supposed to give seven? No, no, no, no, seventy seven times. Just take it. Just take it. Stop read the paragraph before if someone has wrong you seriously wrong to you. What's the first thing you do this pedantic? But this is what I would do in our Cup of coffee was the first thing you do you. Go talk to them. What if they don't own up to what they've done to you? Don't think it's wrong think that you're stupid and being too sensitive, and they they don't apologize. What do you do? You get someone else. What if they don't listen, you get someone out? Just stop and think about what Jesus doing here whatev- what it means, especially if this is an unsafe situation. Jesus envision that you ever are alone with that person again. Are you ever alone with that person again? No. Apparently Jesus thinks within the community creating safe boundaries of increasing distance between you and the offender is what we need to be doing for each other here in the community of disciples, whatever seventy seven times means that doesn't mean putting yourself back in the arena. So that you get hurt all over again with me here. I mean adjust the moment you see that. I just wanna be. So crystal clear, and this is a big room. And what do the statistics tell us statistics? Tell us that right now in this room. There's. There's a large number of people who are in a relationship into marriage or in a family where they're being physically abused? They're being beaten where they're being verbally and motionlessly abuse yelled at shamed. Where they're being sexually abused in this room right now. And I want you to hear crystal clear. Jesus does call you to forgive the person who's wrong you. We'll talk about that. But, but if you're in one of this scenario, your first priority is not to forgive them. It's to get safe and to talk to someone else. And to get yourself in a situation where you can regain stability where there's distance where their safety so that you can actually begin the hard work of forgiveness that has to come. If your father were of Jesus with me here and somehow. That message doesn't get communicated in communities, and you can some of you know, firsthand the abuses of the suffering. Silence. Become the doormat. I'm just gonna take it for Jesus. Jesus is not asking you to do that. He is asking you to forgive. He's not asking you to keep yourself in dangerous or abusive situation. And so just to to pause because I know this is important, and you know, even has to do with people's safety to names of pastors here door of hope Bree, and Tom if you are in one of the situations of abuse that I named and you don't have anyone to talk to because you don't have someone that save. Here's to safe people in your church community that would love to talk with you. And to connect you to people who actually can really help you are qualified to help you with me here. This is. Serious, and we need to take the seriously as a church community because there so many church communities that have gotten this wrong and people's lives are destroyed because they think they're being faithful to Jesus, but actually they're just being unwise with it. Back to the list. Forgiveness. It's not the same thing as reconciliation or restoration. And it doesn't mean that things return to the way they were go back to the paragraph before Matthew chapter eighteen fifteen. If if the person who's wrong to you is going to reconcile with you, what does that require somebody wrong with you? I mean, they really hurt you, and they meant to what is it gonna take on their part to come to a place where you to truly reconcile. What does it mean for them? Well, it means they're going to have to recognize what they did. They're gonna have to own it. They're going to have to find a way to see that it was wrong, and they need to apologize. That's an that's really an enormous amount of work. I mean, I just really think you can paint this from the perspective of being wronged by somebody. Because that's what Peter says. But I mean, how many of you have actually had someone come after you and be like, hey, like, you made me feel like this. When you did this to me. That's just not a fun conversation to have, you know? And so you'd mmediately get put on the defensive right? And you're like, oh, and those are what what it requires is real deep change on the part of someone who's fended or wronged another person to come to actually own it. It's a lot of change and humility required by that person. So the question is what if they don't like what if they don't want to like own it. And what if they don't do the hard work, can I forgive them. And one of the most common, misunderstandings is that what Jesus is asking us to do is not just forgive. But also, make sure that reconciliation happens. But can you control a reconciliation can you control? Whether or not someone apologizes to you. You have no control over that. Right. You can't make someone like realize what they did was wrong. You can try. You can use every verbal trick in the book. Right. And you can make sure and but like, but for a deep humility and repentance to happen in the other person, you have no control. And and there are times where reconciliation becomes impossible. It becomes impossible because the person that wronged you has passed away they're not alive anymore. It becomes the relationship is so dangerous or so destructive that you actually you can't you can't be around them. Jesus wouldn't want you to be around them, and you can't talk to them anymore. What do you do and forgiveness different than reconciliation forgiveness is two way street? We're both people come they humble themselves. I'm forgiving. I'm owning up to what I'd done. It takes time to rebuild trust in the relationship. And so on it takes two forgiveness. Does not take too. Apparently. And this is significant look at look at the last line of Jesus parable in Matthew chapter eighteen look at verse thirty five. Where does Jesus say forgiveness takes place? Where's the root act of forgiveness? Look at the last sentence of Matthew tune where do you do forgiveness and your heart? Can you control the thoughts and the emotions and the will of another human being? No, you can't and forgiveness different thing than reconciliation their moments were reconciliation might not be possible. You're still called to forgive and you're called to forgive regardless of how that person responds to you. It's just a different act altogether. Which means that things may never be the same. It doesn't mean that you have to be best friends. Again, it doesn't mean that you'll eve- even be able to be around each other and have and have any kind of healthy relationship. It's just different different act altogether. Because with me here. Last of all, it doesn't necessarily mean that the offender escapes consequences think whatever forgiveness means it doesn't exclude going into them yourself. Go into them with another person go into them with even more people. And if they won't own up to it. They won't see what they've done to you, violates the teachings of Jesus. And so what is what is Jesus say, you do someone who says her follower of Jesus, but every all their behavior and choices and the hurting people, and they don't care, and they don't think it's wrong. What does Jesus say? What's the consequence? Treat them as you would peg tax collector now Josh talked about this. We here last week. So Josh talk about this. How did Jesus treat tax collectors? Did he like paint large tease on their foreheads? And of course, did Jesus treat techs collectors. He he moved towards them. He had dinner with them and celebrations of the kingdom. But what did he do? He he called them to follow him. You don't cut the person off you recognize like, oh, they're actually not a follower of Jesus. So why would I expect them to follow his teachings? If they're not a follower of Jesus, I should shift the conversation I've been wronged by this person. But actually like the most important conversation that somebody else needs to have with them because I'm not going to be in same room with him anymore. Is that is that they need like reckon with the rooms and selfishness, and whether or not they're going to follow that's the conversation right now. And if that's truly where their heart and their mind is at then God's grace will begin to do the work in them to realize we need to make this. This works here. And those are those are real consequences, apparently Jesus mind forgiveness doesn't mean that there's no consequences. And this is very tricky. And this is really tricky because there may be some moments where Jesus is calling you to release someone from the consequences of their behavior. There might be situations where releasing someone from the consequences of their behavior is actually the most socially irresponsible thing that you could do especially in situations violence or abuse right for them for a person who's consistently violent or abusive of other people for you to have released all consequences whatsoever. What are you doing? You're just releasing that out to the person can go be violent and abuse other people that erase sponsoring with me here. So this I'm saying that too much this morning, but with me, right? So, but I'm just trying to. Generate clear understanding. Whatever Jesus means. I think for this case specifically it requires wisdom and discernment to know what this means because it always means some release of consequences. But what what degree odds are? You're not going to be able to figure that out by yourself. Which is why you need another person. Why to other people to help you work out the situation? So those are just simple observations from Matthew eighteen itself about what forgiveness does not mean. So forgiveness. Does not mean that what does it mean? And here Jesus is brilliant because he doesn't put a list on the screen, and bore people to you tells a parable. He tells the story, and there's just I'm just want to highlight a few things from this brilliant, brilliant parable and their insights that gain from one of the most practical helpful books on Christian forgiveness ever had in my life. And if I had a thousand of my Mountlake candy by. Louis Swedes called the art of forgiving how to forgive. When you don't know how and what he he has a whole chapter on this parable right here. And he brings out a number of things that once you see them just like, yes. That's exactly what Jesus thing here. Where again, let's start at the end. Where does Jesus locate the active forgiveness or do you do it in your heart? And of course, that's the metaphor. Right. Your heartbeat blood? That's what your heart does. Right. The muscle contracts members science class best whole thing. So so in the bible, the hearts metaphor and actually different than in the west the way, we think of heart, we think of heart when we say heart, what kind of human activities are we thinking of in your heart? What do we do with our heart in America? You love you feel you feel things right? It's the center of emotions and in the bible is different the bible has no word for brain. Did you know that there's no brain in the bible who knows what they thought. It was great matter to them or whatever. So in the bible, your heart. Does what we have separated between our brain and our hearts, we think feeling and will and logic and choice, but in the bible, the use of the word just goes read through the whole bible and circle all the times at heart occurs. It's a lot of work. But it's really interesting. You'll learn a lot and the process, and what you learn is that in the bible heart is about it's about choice and feeling it's about the center of your emotions, and your will which means for Jesus forgiveness. It's a choice. It's a choice that you make. And that you begin to feel as you make the choice. It's likely not going. Ever something that you want to do or that you feel like you want to do. But it is something that he wants his followers to do. It's a choice that becomes a feeling. And what's that journey? What is that journey? And it's it's brilliant. So you have this parable about the guy who owns zillions of dollars to king. Right. You're supposed to laugh, and then he's like, I can pay back really really, you know, idiot. Why why would you even use that tactic? And so what what does the king say he's going to do what is Justice for this guy who owns zillion dollars? What would be just and again, it's loaded with cultural difference Justice. And what happened in their culture was you are sold into debt service debt slavery, which means you and your family, you go live on this person to state that you know, that you owe this money until how many years go by. And you work it off. That's just how things were. In their there. But this guy's released his entire debt. He goes out and finds somebody who has a few thousand dollars. And what does he do? What's his response to the guy who knows them miniscule amount? And Jesus is really careful to paint the picture slowly here. What does he do to him? I. He chokes him. He's choking him pay back. What you of me? The guy says him exactly the same words that he said to the king that he owns billions of dollars to, but he refuses to release the guy from his debt, and instead has him thrown where into prison now, this is if you didn't notice a contradiction there, I pointed it out, but really think of what Jesus is painting right here. If you throw someone in prison, what can they not do if they're going to repay you? If you dollars they can't work. They can't work. So Jesus he's talking about. Here's what unforgiveness does to us. It makes us irrational. It puts us in in a state of vengeful frenzy where we don't even see that it stopped being about Justice along time ago. And it's actually not about this person. Even being able to say they're sorry. Pay us back. It's it's a. You don't want them to be able to apologize to you. Now, you might think. Yeah. That definitely doesn't describe me. And maybe it doesn't describe you all the time. But really be honest with yourself that you haven't at least wanted to go there once with the person who runs you it's lame back. It's it's human nature. It's what we do. It's the spiral of human history look human history and tell me that we're not totally irresponsible when it comes to Justice in recompense. We don't just want Justice. We want to feel the satisfaction of Lisa short chokehold before someone pulls us off. Right. And we actually want to put this person in an impossible situation. So that they can know what they did to me. Really? And it may not be how you feel all of the time. But you can't deny that you've at least felt that some of the time and Jesus knows that. And so this isn't just about this guy having 'em nesia for what he was forgiven. We'll talk. About that. It's about forgiveness is first and foremost, they decision to give up what is by nature and even a certain right to retaliate and get this person back. It doesn't mean there's no consequences. Remember the paragraph right before this one? But it does mean some kind of release of something that you could do. But that you choose not to do the first step in the active forgiveness. According to Jesus in this parable. It means refusing to put this person in a scenario where it will be impossible for them to ever make make up for what they did. To you refusing that that story has been written seven billion times over on this planet already and Jesus says the kingdom of God is here, and it's becoming born again, like a new kind of human and in the kingdom we do conflict differently. We do it differently. We give up our rights. To retaliate, and we do this heart. We choose to change our heart attitude in the parable. I think this involves a few few things right here. You choose in and allow your decision to create room for your feelings into decision to forgive which first of all as a Christian means to remember God's forgiveness for me. And that's clearly what all of this parable, right? Is that this guy has? It's it's ridiculous. How quickly he's forgotten the huge debt he's been forgiven. And then he's willing to retaliate and put this other person in an impossible situation because of the little thing that they've done to him. Now, you may not feel like the thing you may not feel like thousand dollars that someone knows you is is only a thousand dollars you might feel like that's zillion dollars. And you might feel like you've only offended the king thousand dollars or so you've got so in which case, I'm I just man. Let's just go back to one. Oh, one go back to Christianity. One one. You you, and I are broken in more ways that we can possibly realize and the blind spots in our character. And it's actually not just about our own individual failures. It's about the fact that you, and I are knit together in a social web called human race. Right. We're my. Decisions are actually totally affected by your decisions and people in New York and LA and Hong Kong and China, and then our decisions affected the people in China and the things in Thailand, like it's all connected and the ways that I'm hurt and sinned against in the ways, you're sinned against the little child by your parents, and the grandparents and the postwar generation. It's such a complex web that it's never just about me and my debt before God, it's about me and our debt before God, look what we've done to his world. Look what we do to each other. I mean, I I won't even site the newspaper headlines like look, we live in Cain city. We live in the city that came built and the lame X of our world and the little lay mix inside of all of us. Like, we this is we've created this mess, and we zillions of dollars to the creator of our good and beautiful world made human beings to reflect his image. And look what we've done to the place and look what we've done to each other. And the moment that I forget that. And the moment that I forget what the king has done in response to what we've done to his world. And it's just Christianity wanna one it's that God is so committed to his good world, then rather than enact revenge and just roast the place. He comes among us in the person of Jesus, and he personally absorbs and takes into himself the ruin the sin, the evil in the death that we. We all have created in his good world as an act of love and in the resurrection. He offers us his life. He offers us release from the consequences of what we have done here. Which is which is to live in the hell we have created here on into hereafter. And he releases us by his love. And the moment that I forget that is the moment that I actually begin to think I have some higher ground than some other human being and that somehow they're wrong of me is actually more significant than the way the I and we have wronged God. And so like, I just just a little chokehold just a little bit. It'll just feel great. And I'm do it. It's my do. I deserve it because they wronged me. And Jesus mind to somehow create that bit of high ground is the moment that I've completely forgotten. What it even means to be a Christian in the first place, which is that. And so this is what God's forgiveness when I recognize God's forgiveness of me. This immediate outcome is all of a sudden, I rediscover the humanity of the person who round me because. Yes, like is way that someone hurt you in wrong you without a selfish sinful thing to do. Yes. But here's what we do. What we do is when we're hurt and it's a natural response. But you have to stop yourself and think about it. What we do is. We here's a complex human being in had a long life history. Right. And they have all kinds of motivations for why? They do what they do. And they hurt me. But what we do is. We take their complex humanity. We boil this person down to the thing that they did to me. So they lied to me. And then all of a sudden in our minds. It's not just lied to me. It's they were they were born with the forked tongue. You know, they they are a liar. They didn't just cheat me. They are cheater we do this. And all of this is this is how we demonize other human beings. And then once we do this like for a whole culture of people to do this to another culture of people. It's over it's war. Because there's no attempt to humble ourselves. And recognize like, yes, you are bad. But actually, so am I. Like, you're selfish. But I I'm selfish to be selfish in different ways than you are the cause me to hurt other people in different ways than you hurt me. But we're both. We're both a mix of good and evil. No one's completely bad. And no one's completely evil. We're all mixed bag and recognizing God's forgiveness of me. And of us empowers you in humbles you before the cross to be able to see some some glimmer of humanity and goodness in the other person and recognize their same level of compromise. I am. And then once you get there. It's it's a decision that you make. It's a decision. That's summarized right here in verse thirty three with the master said to the servant, shouldn't you have had mercy. The same way that I had mercy on you instead of embracing hatred. And instead of putting this person in prison and putting them in a possible situation that they'll never actually be able to pay you back, even if they wanted them to to have mercy, I'm gonna choose to treat this person and think of this person with compassion instead of hatred. Hey, guys done. Is forgiveness? According to Jesus. Have we liked robbed it of its power by reading Matthew eighteen in context? And seeing what he does not mean in what he does me. I mean, just imagine if we actually lived like this just imagine if we actually went to each other when we wrong each other don't gossip don't hold sacred prayer gossip sessions like imagine. If we actually did this imagine. I mean, I think it would it would trance form our relationships. It would transform the kind of community that we could become. Last week when you know, the Twitter and Facebook and the news channels all came alive because of the shooting at the community college down in roseburg, right? I mean, these are. We're so tired of this, aren't we? And what is the response of followers of Jesus to this? Repeated kind of senseless violence with a whole lot of things it's a whole lot of things. But one of them has to be forgiveness, which apparently doesn't mean ignoring it, which apparently doesn't mean tolerating it, and allowing it to continue. But it does mean dealing with compassion and not hatred to the people that murder others. On June seventeenth the last tragic mass shooting. It was at a manual Methodist church in Charleston, South Carolina. We're just barely three months past it. And so Dylan roof he walks into the Wednesday night for her meeting bible study. He waits till it's over hour and a half long gathering, and then you just unleashes and nine people die. Two days later, the daughter of one of the women Ethel Collier. She was seventy one and murdered in chapel. Her daughter. Had the opportunity along with all of the other nine families of the victims who died in that shooting. Did you guys can go watch it on YouTube where they the family members get up in front of a microphone and speak to the person who murdered their families. And this is what Nadine Collier had to say. I forgive you addressing Dylan. I want everybody to know that. You took something very precious away from me. I will never get to talk to her ever again on never able be able to hold her again. But I forgive you. And have mercy on your soul. You hurt me? You heard a lot of people. But if God forgives you. I. Thank you guys for listening to exploring my strange bible. We will keep exploring the gospel. According to Matthew next time. So we'll see you then.

Jesus Matthew Peter Josh Jerusalem Portland Tim Mackey Wisconsin Israel Galilee northern Israel Palest MEC YouTube founder James Lameck murder les MEC Cain South Carolina Abel
How The Us Can Bring Peace To Israel-Palestine

Ron Paul Liberty Report

33:08 min | Last month

How The Us Can Bring Peace To Israel-Palestine

"Hello everybody and thank you for tuning into the liberty report with us. Today is dan you. Mike adams are co host daniel. Good to see you. Good morning dr paul. How are you doing good. Radian rarin yes. We have a few things to talk about today. We're gonna do a little bit on foreign policy and one day. I suspect foreign policy may be a really big issue the way the world's coming down on the militarism is going on a little bit of aggravation out there but As far as i'm concerned i think we citizens the united states have enough burden right here in this country that More maybe more people killing on ours. Killing being killed in our streets are overseas. It was a consequence the lockdown and and all the other things and the messin demonstration. But anyway we want to start off with israeli palestinian and that's been around for a few years work few dozen years or maybe a century to. It's been a long time but more recently it's been going on because there's a change in administration but y- you know although there's talk you have the republicans chiming in and criticizing with biden is doing They have to have a little bit of partisan bickering Actually not a whole lot changes. The military industrial complex remains in charge. And i think both parties aren't that for you know apart on what to do in the middle east but it is. It is a mess and the temptation is always Where we hear a fighting going on because it's natural and we've been conditioned on you know you have to have a side that's been going on and we have Promoted that because we have an empire to defend and really started after world war one especially after world war two and then we had division picking sides in the cold war. It goes on and on today. We don't have exactly the cold war but it's not a good situation because of the one principal. i think i late Which was not a strongly endorsed by the founders is interventionism is that we have a. We have an mpr that we have to be involved. We have to get you know. Help one group versus the other and the there's very little talk about. Is there another option. I mean we. There's a lot of people who are very very favorable toward israel. Imagine the majority of americans if you just by vote and that's probably why you know the funding for israel's not difficult. The article we're looking at today is buying the pru seven hundred thirty five million dollar weapons sale to to to israel. of course. I think We sent a couple of dollars to the palestinians Not as much. But if he were pure pure believer in democracy. Take away the people were for sending their hard earned dollars to israel and a couple of pennies to You know the palestinian but anyway but there is a different position. And i what i'd like to suggest. Is that people should be forced into the position. Either it's israr or the palestinians and we have to pick sides and And we have a responsibility and painted in of morality that we have this moral obligation to protect good guys and send them money. Send them our kids if necessary. And we've been doing that for a long long time. Especially of course since world war two has been So careless no declaration of war. A lot of people died a lot of people we have killed and they take they take a position of of Carelessly intervening so. I would suggest daniel that there is another one that people should at least consider The the principle of a Of a free society libertarian. Society would be non interventionism which we talk about a whole lot. You know if if it doesn't Required for national security purposes. And here's some border wars going around the world or internal struggles and civil strife country. We we have no more obligation that we have to steal more money from our people or or draft our kids and send them over there and get involved and just thinking any kids. I mean when this middle east war which is the most recent Tragedy it just how it tears me up when i see that people coming back with loss of limbs near and struggling to make a living and and enter survive and and yet You know people haven't complained too much. I know the majority when we were dealing with trying to avoid the middle east wars going on iraq war The the The people didn't want it until the propaganda got at it and the military industrial complex Finally change opinion where the people became fearful frighten so anyway. That's interventionism and i would like to sort of Talk a little bit about today and get your opinion about you. Know what would it look i. Could we do this. Shouldn't we would. could we consider. Is there something really threatening to our national security are people so intimidated about neutrality. Why do they feel feel compelled and of course that is for various reasons depending on to whom you speak. You're the you're you're right. There is a real temptation to take sides. And a lot of americans do take sides as you point out especially inside the beltway israeli side. And there's tempting because the response is so disproportionate you know. We've seen about at least two hundred and thirteen palestinians dead and that includes over sixty children where the israelis have lost only twelve people. You see for example. Let's skip to that second picture. This we're mid san fr- some frontier medicine doctors without borders. Were complaining that the israelis hit a medical clinic in gaza. We know that they took down the aljazeera. Ap press tower and even blink said. I haven't seen any proof that moss was there. At least that's what he said yesterday. So it's it's really tempting to take size of such a disproportionate response but the fact of matter is that we would like to point out. Is that Israel's not any safer either and we're not helping matters the seven hundred million dollar arm so they're running of bombs because they're using them to blow up gaza the running out of bombs so we're gonna rushing to give them more bombs inside the beltway. They're thrilled because they're selling these jay dams. Which is the exact weapon. That's being used to blow these things up. Everyone in the beltway swirl but you know what the certainly. The palestinians are not thrilled about it but also these israelis themselves now are not so thrilled either because they're experiencing fear that they have not experienced before the hamas rockets the rockets fired from gaza into even tel aviv. Impressed dented. i think three thousand rockets have never fired that many You have unrest inside israel now. Twenty one percent of the population or or palestinians inside israel palestinian arabs israeli citizens. They're getting fear furious. They're on strike right. Now you have unrest on the lebanon. Have his blog with probably two hundred thousand missiles that they can fire. You have iran and iraq getting irritated. You have serious strong palestinian support. The israelis themselves because remember. This is also taking place. Dr paul in the backdrop of netanyahu's own political and legal problems. He can't form a government. They're going to have their fifth election. I think coming up with or fifth. He's in legal trouble corruption. And he's doing this because as we know from our own presidents what better way to detract attention from all your problems and to start a nice little war but it isn't a nice little right now. It shouldn't take a genius to say a hornet's nest we send our kids over there to try to sort this out and send our diplomats and send more bombs to stir up more trouble and of course is involved in this too. There'll be a lot of blaming there and so If the thing if this doesn't settle down of course there's a lot of people in our government that would love to expand it to increase increase Our attention and and and go after the but syria You know there was a complaint. The other day by israel because syria was launching bombs into israel. But i think if. I'm not mistaken. I think syria has been sending a few bombs into it has syria. Israel has job a lot of bombs there. So it's on and on and on for a long time. But i think there's one thing that's a little bit different. There's always some grandstanding Between the two parties one party the new one takes the non interventionist position but There'll be one party That will be much more aggressive with the militarism than than the other side and sometimes they think that the democrats are more for peace but we found out that obama was no more more for peace. But i think the interesting discussion is these Radicals that we complain about. All the time in the congress The socialist club Are are siding with With the palestinians. There's an internal Discussion within the democratic party. Probably more than in the republican party. There's a there's a few non interventionists in in in the republican party in congress but here they of course they get more noise too but That that is Occurring more than it has in general most of the time. the position. There's there's been times that people have told me with With experience that the debate on how to handle these things are Probably more active in israel itself where I if you say too much here in this country you get painted but the Other ones i say that They will debate it in israel but when push comes to the show they're gonna still be killing each other and you know the other. The other thought that comes up is does jimmy carter offer us. A solution to this is a mess. And of course he got involved Between israel and egypt and how to sew a solution which then Get me too excited but is unlike. Maybe there'll be less killing which has a good idea but it's petted but it turned i. It costs us a little bit You know a lot of cost us money to. This is sort of bribery thing that if you do this and do this. We're going to send you more money but was gonna get more than the other and and it really doesn't solve all the problems because it the The fighting is going on for much deeper reasons than Just lack of dollar lack of a weapon. Yeah you know the the you know the you do. There is some stigma attached in the us to having a more even-handed approach but we must point out that among the strongest and most stringent critics of are seemingly blind support for the israelis and the israeli rightwing. Come from american jews particularly progressive. American jews. you think about phil wise. You think about so many other so there is that in the us but you know the us thinks that it's helping israel us say us. I said the washington elites beltway leads. They think they're helping israel. Yeah they're helping. Israel kill more people but it doesn't really help israel as such it's encouraging belligerence. We've talked about this so many times. That encourages them to be more. Religion encourages them to kill more as quickly as possible. It encourages them to shy away from the negotiating table. Because they say hey uncle sam got my back. I'm gonna get seven hundred million dollars rockets. No big deal the. Us has now three times blocked. A un security council resolution to sing a sit down at the table league. I start talking this out south doing us blogs because they think they're protecting israel but they're actually at the end of the day. Not in fact. I was reading an article. I think it was in israel. National news Where they're talking about yeah. Israel's winning the tactical fight but we're actually losing the strategic battle in by the us looking like it such dishonest broker taking sides so blindly actually turning the rest of the world against israel making the rest of the world more frustrated and infuriated and that is not a good recipe for long term survival and the pro israeli group will say we would approach anything we're talking about. That's like wiping israel off the face of the earth off the map and they couldn't defend themselves but There's a good argument was saying. And i think you're making that is. Maybe they would do more for themselves. Why would why are they dependent on us because they can't be more aggressive if they know well. We run out of bombs. We'll get them yeah and The commitment is overwhelming. But there would be a greater incentive for the people of israel to maybe work things out and you know that had never happened but in a way they at least talked and work something out How long it'll last has lasted for awhile. Now is what they did with the jip- shins no reason why you can't think that for practical reasons that they might decide to back off and It's it's just a shame because so often we have mentioned had just come boils down to religions and beliefs and culture. It's impossible they've been doing this for thousand year. Yeah there were periods of time during where there was less military intervention and four and intervention and and jews lived next door to the christians and christians to the muslims and there was a time when they were getting on much better. It's when the outsiders come in and if we if we get involved and get on one side Even if there was a group of people in a particular country that we go into a sympathetic united states. They have to give that up because it looks like back home that they've wimped out and therefore it takes your friends who might have taken a different position and pushes them over. And that's why nonintervention for me. And i'm sure for you is a better position for practical reasons for moral reasons. And if you're looking for peace You should be talking more about that. Of course we have a little organization designed to promote peace Which we believe it will promote prosperity and It is important as and when you when you look at the destruction of wars and You know smoldering and wars on cold wars and all this it. There's no practical sense there. But it also takes. I think the factor that comes in our the demagogues. You know the propaganda. The people making money and Then the people carelessly falling into the trap about saddam hussein is in chicago and we better start paying exactly well speaking of destruction. I guess we're ready to move on more destruction. One of the most destructive governors and we like these kinds of stories. Because we like it when people get come up and it's not because we're mean-spirited people but we believe in justice and people like like Whitmer gretchen whitmer. Whitmer in michigan has done a lot of destruction to the state Been caught several times flouting her own rules. I think it was her husband. Who tried to in line to take his boat out because he's the governor's wife but she's in trouble again. That's maury apocryphal. Let's put on this next clip. I know it's going to break your heart but gretchen whitmer florida trip company that oath. The governor is not authorized for charter flights. Here's the backstory dr paul. She took a secret trip to florida. In march it was she was from the reports. I read they were unvaccinated. They went down to florida They had possibly illegal charter plane. When caught she lied about it And twenty seven thousand five hundred twenty one dollars to send down there by secret. Private plane was paid by a group called michigan transition. Which is a pro whitmer nonprofit. You know row points to never pay money to send people around do they. That's quite a nonprofit. But the thing is she's busted she may actually be in more serious trouble with the sad part of. It is dr paul. She was going down there. Because her chronically ill father had taken a turn for the worse in all normal people. She wanted to go see her dad and help him out so she did it but she forbade everyone else in michigan from two did anything. Yeah yeah just out of evil You know she She's a person to be the comes across as totally arrogant. Yeah i don't think. I don't think she's dumb enough to think. Oh if i get into this. Nobody's gonna notice. I'm gonna fly down there. And i'll just wanted to see my dad. She she. she's not that dumb. But i think i think Maybe it's a little bit sub-conscious but i think it's i in there. I'm in their face and the people who disagree with me and my progressive friends which They're the only ones that are allowed to get near and they're going to highly praise earlier and so she's She's arrogant enough to believe that. This is a political win but your point is well taken because it just might not be now. I think it was a bama the to say about assad then they say assad has to go. Maybe maybe that's the slogan her has to go. We've heard enough from her but people were let people in michigan determined that and maybe Maybe election now on then might help. Straighten the people out but Sometime it's slow going because sometimes if you really get annoyed with some of these governors you can have a recall. Wow we are really progressive and letting people speak out and and have a chance to Get rid of some of these clowns. Well another story that we need to touch on because we are so much on the plate today but this is something. I found this this morning. Because i know this is something that you're very concerned about. It and it is concerning is very disconcerting if we can click over that next picture about northern virginia This is going on with little league. Sports is as you always point out. It's the great thing that brings americans together from history from the first integrated baseball leagues It's brought people of all races all backgrounds together. We just leave that up for a second of all backgrounds and races together and it's been a very positive force until recently in our society but here's something from breitbart. Virginia literally coaches will be required to take anti racist training before they can become coaches. Little kids i just wonder. How many alexandria. Dads who are going to coach kids team. Have you know like a secret. Stash of hitler memorabilia. Or something you know. It's just very disturbing hand. The big question is who will be the trainers coming in. Sort of like what we're finding in our public school system who are teachers who are who's really guiding our kids and all of a sudden you find out that they belong to the Cultural marxists movement and they've been they've been indoctrinated and they're the ones going to be teaching our kids and unfortunately or maybe fortunately people are starting to realize how bad it really is. But i think it's all part of this critical race theory. You know anything people do or any law. There can be no contradiction. No legitimate freedom of choice and I was thinking well you know in sports i. There's a lot of discrimination in sports. They discriminated against in favor of better players. Yeah how dare. They say they do that. And and i don't know This might be too radical even for our show. But i think they should look into this black supremacy basketball. I'll bet you getting on onto college basketball. I had trouble getting a junior high basketball team. Let's put it that way assertive action. But you know a lotta times. Dr paul when you scratch the surface of all this cultural marxism and all this stuff. You start smelling something green called money and you remember the co founder of black lives matter got into a little hot water because she has four houses worth some four million bucks. She just bought a million and a half dollar house She says well she needs it. You scratch a little bit on this Teaching the coach is not to be such horrible racist. Look at this. This breitbart the positive. Coaching alliance representative. Casey miller added that the training sessions could cost up to ten thousand dollars so someone is in there for the money. And here's what they're gonna teach these at. When i was in the my dad took over the team trying to coach his young kids so young. Dad's in alexandria. Here's what the be dealt with dealing with. A sports can battle racism workshop. It teaches them to encourage to teach themselves to perceive their own internalized racism and to look for potential institutional racism in the community in other words turning him into little stores e officers going around reporting anything that might be perceived as racist. You know if you look at this. They're talking about what you mentioned is purely subjective. You know they're not dealing with acts of violence the guidon Principal when libertarianism is you can't hurt people and you can't Steel rob and kill and literally hurt somebody. But this is subjective. And there's gonna sign. What is a perfect society in. They're going to sit. Sit out the plans. And they'll say well. Yeah they've been unfairly treated over the years that we have to make up an all those those arguments but It's it's a goal of a goal which is on achievable like we want perfect equality which not only is it unachievable. But it's very damaging. Can you imagine where everything has. We've already had the example where kids kids have even turned on their trophies. Everybody goes out and everybody gets the same trophy and little kid says that doesn't some. I've heard that said they just don't want it because it didn't mean anything and even even it wasn't that if if it changed a little bit he was going to get one. The kids sense that the trophy has the means something And i guess the trophies of life if they're passed up by Untrustworthy politician And dealing with money and prestige and political power You know now. Maybe he's taking them all but maybe some people are figuring this out and they find it. This despicable would like to change it so I think the more people realize what's going on here. I can't imagine a whole lot of people that would appraise this up. You know The way they way they put it in this article. Well you know be old fashioned appalling guests. I'm just plain old. But i remember the day if you were in little league and you heard one of the parents or someone making a racist comment the other dads take care of the problem either. Chided him down or tell him you know. This is no good but we want do a little bit of cova news because this is something that came out a while ago. It's been under the radar but people have been talking about it on twitter. And i think it's kind of interesting. It's something to consider because the idea that the vaccine makers have immunity from anyone getting sick is caused some people to kind of rethink things because it takes away the incentive to make things safe but this is some. Let's look at that. next clip. really quick osha rules. Employers who mandate kovac scenes are legally responsible. If they kill or injure workers in some of these times the headlines are a little bit misleading. So i went to the okposo page itself in the frequently asked questions section and it does indeed appear on the osha dot gov page. And it's very telling maybe inadvertently. So and i'll just read the question and answer dr paul if i require my employees to take the covid. Nineteen vaccine as a condition of their employment are adverse reactions to the vaccine. Recordable answer from osha if you require your employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment than any adverse reaction to the kobe vaccine is work related the adverse reaction recordable if it is a new case etcetera etcetera etcetera. So yes it's considered a work related disability now this brings to light the principle of voluntarism. Because if it's required it's no longer voluntary and that's a different story. And they can recommend and people make up their minds. I think we're a ways off from that but at least it's been written down you know for people to saw the start thinking about this but of course we should have never gotten trying to correct the problem. That was unnecessary. They created the problem and now they're working it out and they're always going to be imperfect and that's been my argument about opening up getting rid of locked on and you know it was. It was wrong to do it. It was a violation of liberty to do it but to return is unfair to because they they do talk and you know and like texas and florida. They say okay. The doors are open. But then there's always some loophole someplace you know. The corporations for some reason people pressure But this this one deals with it voluntarism is a great thing because whether it's volunteerism in economic policy is The producer and the buyer. Just get together agree. What is worth and and There's no coercion. Government shouldn't interfere. There should be no price controls or anything else. It's a voluntary system but what was most attractive. I found when i talked to young people is that should be applied to social matters if people if people had habits religious habit social habits or whatever and as long as there's no force and they come together voluntary. That is okay in. That doesn't tell you that you endorse one system. It is that you can pick and choose an and voluntarily do it and this touches on this so this is this is moving in the right direction. Emphasizing voluntary approach and and not Not depending on coercion. I think this is why we're seeing some companies backing off of this idea of you know you have to get it okay. Well if i do. And i get sick. It's up to you i'm gonna. I'm gonna close with a couple of things. But i just want to say i dr paul and a personal note We took a trip up to use in my family did yesterday. We went out and we had dinner in houston. Which is you know. Lena doesn't want you to do anything she wants to stay home. We went to get some bond me at russe star. Which is the best bond me in town. I think and no masks for us no problem. We walked then. We went to the forbidden land trader. Joe's we hadn't been there in a year. We walk without masks on and we had no problem. There was one other person there without a mask but it is very encouraging. Although it makes you feel some way some recrimination like what they've done to us over the past year at the same time though you feel grateful that things are starting to feel normal again so we were. We were happy. But i'm gonna do the thomas massie appreciation minute on this show because he's great on twitter and facebook. He's always so educational we'll do. I'll do a serious but really important when first and then kind of humorous one second. Let's put up that first. Massey tweet. This came up earlier today and this is so important. And he's so common sense he said vaccines. Don't contain. antibodies or t cells. They provoke your body into providing a natural immune response the natural immune response that prior covert infection also elicits to deny the effectiveness of the natural. Immune response is to deny the basis of the vaccine. That's important but then he says i'm not advocating. Anyone should go out and get infected with covid instead of taking the vaccine. But i find it appalling. That cdc biden pelosi science and treating people like idiots by refusing to acknowledge the efficacy of a natural. Immune response kudos. To the congressman. And the next one which is humorous. But i still like it. We have to show it dr paul. I love this one. Here's thomas massey's a picture of senator. Paul we have the receipts. If you funding gain of function research in g covina's over no more questions. So i just love that. When i thought that was a blast simple and carries a powerful picture tells a thousand words so you mentioned Returned trae trader. Joe's i guess it is and In the reaction was they have a chance to go back and the reaction for a lotta people. Fortunately is while we feel so good. It feels so good to sit down. It's not only a few that loved the idea that we can go back to a restaurant. A lot of people recognizing so it's a it's a powerful message but then again there's a group that accommodated to well. They were disciplined to obey and submit and go and they're not they're still putting. They still have their kids in mass things like that. So there there is a division there but of course the educational methods and the suggestions that we try to me is for people to think this through and and and and try and think science there is something real about science you know and nothing perfect. Divide anybody who has all the answers but I'll tell you one thing where we have drifted from the cdc they having they haven't been very good and exposing what true science is all about. They've done a lot of harm of that. And of course the one thing that they accepted there which was politically wrong was was was the fact that government was doing something they shouldn't do and they shouldn't be in the practice of medicine. I i know they government's been involved for a long time by a lot more in time i've been in medicine. It keeps getting worse and worse in this whole idea of public health And i i think made a comment to daniel the other. How many people do you think do much about the cdc more than a year or so ago and the truth is i. Don't think anybody harley or heard about it but they were there and they. I guess are feeling their oats and decided. Wow look at the power we have and then we found out some Some to politicians have a lot of power to and they started writing executive order so that has to be identified. If we're going to change it but it is very good. Daniel went all of a sudden people. Say free at last free again. I just i can go into but sad that that they're that they're feeling good about it is such your same And the only thing. People should be cautious about is is the fact that The liberty should have never been taken away that was wrong and then when it comes back in it comes in piecemeal and for the most part over the last hundred and fifty years of our our country Yes they've been back and forth on wars and all kinds of things taken away our freedoms but they never give you all of them back again and That's that's an incre vandalism. We're yeah we're gonna feel good. We got to go to go to the restaurants but believe me. There's going to be other people the one A attack on our lives will be that there's been a lot of money spent not a couple billion trillions and trillions of dollars so all his mischief cost a lot of money and the payment is coming due and that that should be interpreted as an attack on our liberty there's a financial obligation it means that You know in the old days. If you didn't pay your bills you went to the poor house and get arrested now. You just have to suffer the consequences of of doing exactly you become a slave to the government and you wait for your check so This is very important And promote the principles of liberty and make sure that people understand. This is a moral issue as much of anything so we will continue the fight for peace and prosperity here at our little studio. And i want to thank everybody for tuning in today to the liberty report. Please come back soon.

Israel dr paul syria middle east gaza united states san fr jay dams socialist club michigan daniel phil wise republican party Mike adams pru iraq
A Chronicle of Diplomacy

The Tel Aviv Review

34:59 min | 9 months ago

A Chronicle of Diplomacy

"This is is. One. Tel. Aviv. Review. And welcome to the Tel Aviv review, I am helping Dahlia Shenlin if please consider becoming a patron supporter or have to do is go to homepage. Let's be one FM slash Tel Aviv review scroll down to the bottom and clearly the big red button that says patron we're counting on you Every week Dan and I bring you interviews with authors of Books and research and other things that we find interesting. This episode is sponsored by the German government. Germany is now holding the EU presidency for the second half of twenty twenty and as our listeners know the Tel Aviv review is holding a special series examining Israel's relationship with the EU and European countries with the generous support and today we we return to the topic of the Israeli Palestinian conflict and we're very happy to welcome Dr Anders Person. He is a senior. Lecturer at lineas university's Department of Political Science in the past, he's been a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Copenhagen and university. We'll be talking about his new book fresh off the press entitled EU diplomacy and the Israeli Arab conflict nineteen, Sixty, seven to two thousand nineteen published by Edinburgh University press in August of two, thousand, twenty this fourth book addressing related topics. So he's really the experts in the role of the Israeli Palestinian conflict unders. Person is speaking to us from his home outside Mamo in Sweden welcome to the show. Thanks for having me suppressor. Great. Let's start at the beginning. I. Think the most important or interesting thing about the book is just to observe. How obsessed we might say the EU is with the Israeli Palestinian conflict and I think you make the argument that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is among the most prominent foreign policy issues for the EU different sources to say the centerpiece maybe the. How would you characterize it? How important is it? To the EU, well, I mean I look at a fifty year period. Since nineteen, Sixty, seven, I started right after I starting January nineteen, sixty seven, and I am going through a huge archive material. Called the EU, the the bulletin and the EU bulletin. So I've gone through eighty thousand pages of text because we don't have to. Know exactly a searching for keywords Israel Palestine, Arab middle, east these kind of keywords and all of that. I got around two hundred, two, thousand, three, hundred different statements on this conflict analyze them more. On a quality basis so. Out of these. Only statements I sort of construct. A thesis out the israeli-arab contest been more important for the EU the conference nothing costs four reese. The is up the contest in central the formation of the US foreign policy. And then the conference has had a persistent unique place in the US foreign policy and number three vehicles involved within the company has been based on major strategic factors like security oil trade another four, the audio is part of the research on the shore key arguments underlying overall thesis this conference particularly important. Well, I find those arguments for why it's important to be very convincing, but I just want to press you on one sort of Data point because as a quantitative researcher. Do we know that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is really more important than every other foreign policy area or specifically conflict. I mean if we measure for example, you know I India and Pakistan and Kashmir. Do we know that there are you know five times more mentions of Israel Palestine, for example? Yeah. Well, the I haven't coded other conflicts but I mean, it's it's you know it's so clear in the material that I look at that that there is is extremely difficult navy the covid number to. Govern. The second most attack I guess it would probably be the Bosnia war in the nine nine this. But the thing here is that most conflicts they tend to end somehow an israel-palestine is, of course, an exception of a company that hassle and India Pakistan is another of this conflict, but it's too far away from the in the US no doubt involved. But the more interesting thing I think in your work and you know just looking at the subject altogether is the earlier years. Because, you know to what extent I'm wondering. Was it. A phenomenon that accompanied the formation of the EU as a political entity, and therefore the formation of its foreign policy because it did start as an economic union gradually evolved into something that has had more. Political. Impact to what extent was. The Israeli Palestinian conflict something was just there for them to. Latch onto in a way when they were formulating their you know the fact that the EU has a foreign policy in the first place. Well. I think we need to go back to. The late night in sixth year there during late nineteen sixties. There was a lot of talk in the European Parliament this was before you know we have for all. Of that the you should how foreign policy and use should unite and become a real actor and in the middle of all this, we had the night six at war of big war happening close to Europe at a time when eighty percent of the was own consumption came from. Middle Eastern a big part of the US overall energy. So these kinds of factors both these identity aspects and strategic factors they came together and and an open up what I call. A. Marvelous. For the that's actually a quote from from from. From a European parliamentarian who said that this is a marvelous opportunity for e you both to unite around this major issue and also to help the conflict help solving the conflict because this was twenty years after the Second World War and the feeling among many in the European Parliament whilst at each we in the EU could overcome our differences than it should be no problem for the people of the Middle East to do the same and we can help them. In doing that I mean I think this is gonNA lead to a very interesting conversation about the pollution of the US positioning on foreign policy. But before we do that I, just want to ask one more question about. As far as the EU was concerned was nineteen, sixty seven that first so-called marvelous opportunity. I'm being a little cynical here because of course, it's not a marvelous anything but to the you have anything to say about the Israeli Palestinian conflict before sixty seven or as you point out, it just was too busy kind of coming into existence and hadn't really considered calls yet. I actually Stockman my analysis in January nine i. don't go back to earlier issues of their set arcade material because only. Eighty, thousand pages to cover. That was more than enough. Actually haven't looked at the day before that I guess. It wouldn't have too much. There are a few trade agreements and stuff like that signed with with with Israel, but the soak was was very marginal agricultural policy in these kinds of things before the late nineteen sixties. So this is actually the time when the EU is sort of. Starting off its foreign policy and right from the beginning confidence they're very central banks. The I have to say. It took me by surprise that it was such as as I said earlier, setting the centerpiece of the foreign policy because we tend to forget now I, mean in twenty twenty that up until thirty years ago the biggest geostrategic issue. In the in the world was the Cold War, and that also had implications for the conflict in the Middle East. Of course, we do know that you know the Arab, Israeli divide, equally divided along the the Cold War divisions and of course, the EU had to say about the the cold. War, because they were on the radio on the rims of these soviet-bloc. What does that? How does that feed into? That realization that the E was. So as you said, obsessed with the with the Middle East conflict. You, know how how do you analyze it with against the backdrop of the Cold War I think fits perfectly into the whole narrative keep in mind that this happens in the period of Tom. Where there s you know Better relations between the superpowers, US undecideds, union, and also more space for others to act. That's gives the the EEL a certain possibility of start raising its voice here. Now, that gets more difficult when a new period of the Cold War escalates in the ninety in the late nineteen seventies, what is called the Reagan said new Cold War. Then decided space for diplomacy get smaller again but pretty much the whole nineteen seventies was the period of the town that meant opportunities for other actors. On the wall station you was one of them in the nineteen seventies was also a period in which the e U or that that time the European Community. Did you call a departure because one of the most fascinating in bits of information that you clarified through your research is that a nine hundred, sixty, seven at the end of the war the U. Foreign ministers actually said nothing about Israel, conquering territories but all of a sudden after nineteen seventy-three they made a much stronger statement against Israel having acquired territories. Can you tell us about that shift and what was it related to and what have to do with that period? Well, as I said, the, you had an enormous oil dependency on the concrete of the Middle East in Nineteen, sixty, seventy, eighty percent or consumption of forty eight percent of its total supply of power came from the Congress of the Middle East. Keep in mind wasn't much smaller than that. We have today but we're talking about, West. You're basically stay, and then of course, we had another shock in nineteen seventy three when prices went up for fold. In a very short period of time. And that of course expressed you know the the enormous dependences that you had at the time on the countries of the middle. East. And the high oil prices led to massive transferring a wealth from the industrialized well e U U. S. Japan to the Middle East which in turn leads to a massive increase in trade. So trade between the EU and OPEC countries goes up a thousand percent in the nineteen seventies creating another strategic objected. So this is sort of the background to where I called E. U.'s declaratory diplomacy. We started or you could also call it a sudden and coincidental normative Sheridan perspective about things like ideals of international relations yes. Yes. So in practice, what happens here is that the EU takes the of later Palestinian narrative of the conflict into Nash Greater. The I first, you starts talking about the Palestinians only as refugees with no criticism this rough. After the war in nineteen, seventy, three oil crisis this change very fast. You start talking about Palestinians using the term Palestinian was married sensitive at the time talking about the Palestinians acid people with legal rights with a right to a homeland with a right to self-determination. Than the you advocated for talks with the pillow. Happen in the nineteen seventies it looked. Pretty much like you know the the discussion on Sinus. Eight years earlier. So, this had major consequences but what does this say about the kind of raining important paradigm of international affairs I mean are we looking at a competition between a realist perspective on this that is purely interest driven by economic and trade relations and security considerations, etc or is there an ideal paradigm or they actually in dialogue with one another in in that interest drive changes of ideology and the ideological aspect becomes genuine. I say about I, mean there is a absolute base to this evolvement of the US policies in meaning security resources trade you know all dependencies these are all realism features and besides that you have the whole liberal discourse of International. Human System Democracy Promotion self-determination all of that and I would also add a third constructivist perspective emphasizing normative power discourses agency identification, all of that. So all of these sort of three main paradigm on international relations they are play here. Again, you know we we have to bear in mind this development of course did not happen. In a vacuum and there were in tandem with similar developments. You know the PLO becoming global actor and you know thinking about Yasser Arafat being invited to speak at the UN and of course the. Zionism is racism resolution in the U. N. as well? I mean I'm I if you can elaborate quickly on, came to play with broader. With the broader diplomatic scenery and also bearing in mind that at the end of the night and seventy s, of course, comes the ventilation in nineteen eighty, which is in many ways paving the way to what the. International community's stance on the. Israeli. Palestinian. issue. Has Been Ever since. Well beside all of these. I think it's fair to say the pro Arab Pro Palestinian developments there is no besides this up the has always believed that Israel's existence has been Sakho sound and you came out very strongly against the UN's resolution that scientists is racism. We can see this kind of pattern emerging today as well when it comes to be the S. And the scientists in these kinds of things. So the so the support for Israel has always been there I would say. But this development of taking Palestinian and Arab considerations into more account. Very important. Because the argument that I make and others make is that this normative power of the EU? has influenced most of all, the American position. Influence for simple CARDIS position and post Carter took creedy much look like the these positions that the EU had outlined. Before and I think this normative diplomacy is even more powerful willing to go into the next period of the Oslo. And Madrid peace process where you can see that during the nineteen eighties that the EU was very very strongly legitimising the two key concepts of Oslo that was neutral recognition and the land for peace for. But can can you say a few words about the emergence of Venice Declaration? More than. Because it is it is Yeah. Because the question it because I think we were both kind of interested in this period of the Venice Declaration in nineteen eighty, which probably a lot of our listeners don't really know because even we barely thought about it and then also you spend a little time talking about the Fez, the Saudi proposal, which I have to confess was not on my radar at all and they both happened around the same time. And I'm not raising this jus- to be wonky and a satiric I think that says something interesting about the dynamics at play long before the era that we consider the to State Paradigm or the partition paradigm that emerged with Oslo. Yeah I mean. All of this diplomacy. And ritory because he washed retorts in importance, this is only return. All of this rhetorics during the nineteen seventies culminated with Venice Declaration. Another declaration but still consider the most important you declaration on Israeli conflict. This second make sure to tell us what it is because a lot of it. Yes. It came in nineteen eighty eight consists of eleven articles all the wage. The two most important were that the EU it was easy back then but the EU. Advocated Palestinian self determination and talks with appeal. Dot will sort the two most important declarations. Then you had support for winning all of that in rate Israel's right to exist. But news sort of the new. The two new policy departures were the that the you support the Palestinian determination talks with the pillow which were very radical positions back and tell us also about the Fed's proposal. Yeah and around this time there were another. South plan, they called the first. Tee South. Now. And the Reagan plans and these plans sort of advocated similar things but they came after the. planned. They came in Nineteen eighty-two after after the after the first Lebanon War. Could also say that the vendors speculation came at the time when a lot of optimism it was right after updated and Israeli. Peace Treaty. So the the e you believe that it was sort of stake out a new position and the super much bigger role in the conflict and instead of out a lot of trouble happen a things that were not related to them in the we had. The momentum here of nine, hundred, seventy, nine revolution. Invasion, of Afghanistan, many of these things contributed to tighten in the Cold War and to lead the world into a new period which gave much less room for maneuver for the EU and that of course, we had a very, very big thing with the with the first one war and the Israeli invasion of Lebanon United. Sure. But I think the question that those that they raise in my mind these two developments were that even before the Lebanon War, the first thing that happened was that Israel roundly repeatedly angrily. and. Publicly rejected both of them and kind of raised the question in my mind of how accurate it is to generally portray the Palestinians rejectionist all the time. It's a very common theme in Western understandings of the conflict, and here we see you know this breakthrough at least rhetorical statement and the first thing that Israel does absolutely reject them Do you think that this indicates some sort of a misunderstanding of the dynamics of the conflict or am I wrong and you can say, well, they weren't serious anyway. I mean, there's a pat on hugh that Israel is almost always opposed to all EU declarations on a conflict except for those deal with Hamas some other things but the truth of course is a new senior MIRA clearly ended the date as that Israel itself has. Taken on not all most of these positions themselves. That is. Using that word Palestinians thing the Palestinians as a people. Beating, in favor of some kind of Palestinian self-determination, the later states. So so many of these policy departures, that's the EU was among the first to outline has been adopted not just by the international community by actress Maggie us but even by by the governments of Israel and the P. as well and what's the lag time. So you're saying the US says stuff or the European Community and then Israel comes around to it later are we talking about two years later twenty years later? I'm. A Couple of years I say. Depends on I mean five years back, I mean. A lot of the things that the e you said in the nineteen seventies more or less materialized in the nineteen eighties. A lot of the things that you said in the nineteen eighties materialize with the peace process in the nineteen ninety s for these are sort of the time I was saying, and of course, some of the things USB favor of has not happened. We haven't seen housing estate yet for example. Did it encouraged European decision-makers the fact that you know the where in many ways. Pioneers in the in the diplomacy of the release conflict. I don't know about that to those European politicians who are dealing with this conflict today a clue about these developments went on in the seventies and the eighties, but it's important also. To say that the EU even today, we'll all its troubles problems that we have heard about them in know several of your previous episodes. The EU is still the law just block of Liberal democracies in love. And gives enormous normative power. An Israel is very, very conscious about that. We see for example, when it comes to the in the the. Votes in the UN insecurity. Council leading the General Assembly about in recognizing Palestinian these kinds of things. Europeans are extremely important that we saw it of course with a reaction against the Swedish recognition of Palestine to. You I know you said a about the the empirical basis of fuel. You said you went through tens of thousands of of pages of of material, and as you also write a rely heavily mostly. On the bulletin of the European Communities and nights at the Bull Britain of the European Union. Can you tell us what they are I is it like protocols I mean what was can you describe the empirical basis of your work? It's a key publication. They came out on a monthly basis sometimes with one double number W Shula every year. So every month bulletin came came up with a two hundred pages outlining the the main you know. The main things were going on in the different use is. The main foreign affairs resolutions, the main things going on in in in the commissions with trade agreements in these kind of things and the main things. That's what went on in the European Parliament. So it's it's a good sort of archive material to us just this conflict but the on many other EU. Policies as well. So I looked at that material. From legs and again comes to question that bit earlier about you know, the the conflict of of authority within the European Union between the Central Union and the individual member states when it comes to you know political power but also a foreign foreign policy how did it I mean? Looking at the European, you're the EU foreign policy. It doesn't tell a partial picture without taking into account the decisions, the executive decisions of each sovereign government something that who has been very effective at least. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely a valid criticism criticism against my work on the other hand sending you write about it in your work. But I would tend myself by saying that I actually at the final prompt the final resolutions that the final in agreements and these are sort of the product after disagreements. So that's what I looked on course. They are there in the background all the time and you can, of course, right you know another story of all in all the kind of troubles that I company in new policies especially in this conflict with all the different, you know voices in bilateral relations that all countries have with both Israel and the Palestinians but I, think that's one of a separate story I look at Ashley, actual policies win a what have they done what have they said with all these? Strains in the background, I think one of the interesting underlying themes here and you alluded to it before Israel's sort of a complicated relationship with the EU and as you said, many times Israel's initial reaction would be to reject either statements we know they've had their disagreements. I want to ask about one of a kind of a finding that was a little bit buried maybe but I noticed it in the book in which you pointed out that the e U did not very frequently certainly in those early years condemned terrorism at one point, you mention a rare condemnation after terror attacks in European airports. Do you think there's an underlying suspicion of by Israel of the EU because of that or what are the you know why? Why is there not why was there not such significant notice of terrorism at that time. So I mean just to give you the background story of I. Mean the worst terror attacks against Israel took place in the nineteen seventies, the model school mouth Cycler, the coastal road attack and others, and there were no condemnations at all from. That's a good question and I don't have the answer to with because I haven't been able to interview those people that were around when these decisions were taken. From a pure. When I? If I have to speculate about that. I think that these terror attacks carried out by nationally nationalist groups had a greater legitimacy than the attacks carried on later on. By militant Islamists, they could also be say. Will Know Freedom fighter perspective attached to it. So I, don't have the answer to, but it is very interesting and I think that these could be some of the dynamics could be a player, but also maybe zooming out on Darlas questionable broadening it Thursday. Almost, underlying consensus among Israelis. It's very simplistic. One that The e U. is pro Arab whereas the US more pro. Israeli. Do think that you know having studied it so thoroughly. Is there any truth in that? Yes I mean there's a lot of truth in I think I mean there is no mean various new people would question that the US has been pro-israeli over the Kospi I'm talking about the. Cases I think in the book you make the case that the e U was trying hard at various points as part of its policy to keep both sides in its good graces for different reasons. But I mean there not I mean especially material. I. Have looked at from the nine and seven is in the ages there. There are no doubts. that the EU to at. Major Pro Palestinian positions that many of these declarations were anathema to the official positions of various. Israeli governments to today's no doubt in doubt that sort of were at pro Arab Pro Palestinian. Basis to to to to the to to these early foreign policy declarations. But I would argue that the data clearly shows that this has changed over the decades one another major conclusion that I have in my book. For the past two decades. So the EU has been much much much more or much much critical of Israel now with many people believe and much more critical of the Palestinians. Can you give us some examples. Yes I mean you you I mean take a look at the statements on all the wars that Israel. had been involved in from the second Lebanon War Two, thousand six barely the criticism against Israel. The same is true for the three Gos- award of two, thousand, eight, nine, twelve, fourteen. So you see criticisms there. Instead, using more criticism of the Palestinians and other actors awesome the Hezbollah and especially over there that the terrorist attacks on rockets Phya. Is. I think that a after the nine eleven attacks. In the US at a very, very strong to call it war on terrorists narrative took over and too cold. Even. In the EU. Even if that is not something that many people believe an also the fact that the was part of various mechanisms like the. Quartet. Also. gave the EU. Less, independent room for maneuver in also meant that the had to more closely align its positions with the US and also. I think. Mind that the US vision. Of A two state solution is based on on a strong Palestinian Authority and not a week. Palestinian for. The is very little support for. Political militant Islamism within the well, this brings me to what might be in our wrap up topic wrap up question, which is you know you have a chapter examining the EU commitment to what you call the sacred flame of the two state solution What is the significance of the two state solution now I mean given. The long years of failure to reach one. and. The shakeup of the trump administration should the e. you continue keeping it as a sacred flame. That's a good question. I mean in many ways the looks pretty much like the Palestinian Authority I should movement this week. That's not. Quite. That's quite quite flattering compared. It with a heavy heart, but it's week it's divided. It s a hard time. You know say. Thing. A. Strategy for the future only reacting to events. But I, mean on the other hand. And this is something that often shallow rated friends when they pressed me on this kind of issues I, mean feel free to formulate. You know a better vision for for solving the Israeli Palestinian, I don't think you want to go down that road with me no. No no no I mean. The thing is we see now an alternative vision formulated by trump that that they are trying to implement now so that. told. The EU has. Big problems right now. With a lot of things. Concerning this conflict for for sample for from for many many years as I said for decades, you lead this conflict terminology, the policy departures, and this has basically stopped. And the stock in in in in in the vision of two state solution, which is getting increasingly difficult to realize maybe possible difficult to say. So. There is a lot of soul-searching on in the US. But sort of without finding a way forward and maybe refusal to admit failure. Well I think that I mean if you speak with you officials I, mean they are I mean very honest in that that that you know. These fifty years have not been very problematic. To Express, it might live up. Genuinely I think EU officials they do believe in a two-state solution? Day Do not at all believe in other solutions that makes them sort of stock in in a in a kind of strange situation that you believe in something that is perhaps not realize the bill and you can't refined. And the entourage. Okay. So let's try to sum it up. I. Mean. Do you think that the only two options out there are the trump vision which you can kind of characterize as cutting up Palestinian territory and having you know one St State of Israel which controls as state most of the territory between the river and the C. n. a few bubbles of autonomy or the old two state solution which doesn't seem to be working out are those the only two options that you can imagine or do you think that you should take a more forward-looking approach and come up with some alternative? Now they're law of grace spaces and grey areas in between saying well, you know. There are many different versions of a one state solution to begin with you know from everything to seduce continued occupation to the Palestinian went on the Sonoma one state solution, and there are many many different versions of a two state solution as well. The in use vision to transition. For example, there are a lot of. I mean there's a lot of grace areas considering both of these Missions. And of course, there on other confederations in these kind of things, but you has a. Very, difficult time of just bringing up. Alternatives and discussed through more intellectual basis. Okay. Anders Paerson. When you are the president of the EU of the Council of the EU, you'll make these decisions and I'm sure you'll do a great job. Thank you for being on the show. We've been discussing your book EU diplomacy in the Israeli Arab conflict from Nineteen Sixty, seven to twenty nineteen. Thank you again for speaking with us. I surrounding me. And thanks to retire Shalimar sound engineer and producer and again to the German government for sponsoring this special series on Israel's relationship with the EU and European countries now request many or most of you listen to us on the apple podcasts APP and we'd like you to please consider writing us a review, go to the ratings and reviews section and just express yourself there. Youtube can support us by going to our website till V ONE DOT FM slash Tel Aviv review and subscribing are Patriot campaign. Check out our archive. We have about six hundred interviews for you. If you like us, you can like us also on facebook page is called the Tel Aviv review podcast ideas from Israel follow both me and lot on twitter and join us again next week for another edition of the Tel Aviv review and until then goodbye.

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What We Talk About When We Talk About Israel

1A

35:17 min | 2 years ago

What We Talk About When We Talk About Israel

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Comcast business having the nation's largest gig speed network was just the start. Now, they're providing gig fueled apps and solutions that exceed expectations and help businesses perform Comcast business beyond fast. This is one A. I'm Joshua Johnson. In Washington, how can one criticize the government of Israel without being antisemitic. People started asking that question again after the controversial comments of congresswoman Ilhan, Omar she has repeatedly criticized support for Israel from the US federal government, and some pro Israel lobbying groups, especially considering the treatment of Palestinians that led to a house resolution denouncing antisemitism and other forms of bigotry without mentioning Omar by name, the debates over America's policies with Israel will not stop anytime soon. But how should we debate these matters without falling into stereotypes or stepping on cultural landmines, and for that matter is Israel, something that Americans are ready to debate. At all joining us here in studio is Natanz Gutman. He is the Washington correspondent for Israeli public TV Natanz. Welcome back. To one A thanks for having and joining us from KLW public radio in San Francisco is Deborah Lipstadt, a professor of modern Jewish history and holocaust studies at Emory University. She is the author of the book anti semitism here and now professor Lipstadt. Welcome. Thank you for having the time. Good mind. Let me start with you with a little bit of vocabulary. There's a term that comes up a lot in conversations about Israel. And that is a very charged political term define that for us. What is in fact, it shouldn't be charged because it's just a historical term that describes the movement which sees him. Israel as the historic imam land of the Jewish people and supports their right to set up their national homeland in Israel. It's a movement that started in the late nineteen th century in Europe. And idea was basically to bring back the Jews were expelled from Israel two thousand years earlier, and the reestablished share 'em Jewish state's part of a move of nationalism in Europe at the time, and eventually, of course, commented with the creation of the state of Israel in the one thousand nine hundred ninety eight I think nowadays in common culture, the there are many that believe that the term Zionism somehow means support for any Israeli policy or support for those where the patient or the West Bank. It doesn't necessarily mean that means support for the right of the Jewish people to have their homeland in Israel. So the core of Zionism is a belief that that you have a right to return to land from Wednesday works were removed. Exactly. Professor Lipstadt anti. Sim takes many forms as we know it often comes up in conversations about Israel. What is your sense of why Israel is such a fraught and difficult and thorny topic for us to talk about I think often that Israel becomes a stand in a replacement for or foil for antisemitic conversation, that's not to say. And I'm sure we'll go into this. That criticism is rarely policies as anti-semitism it, isn't it isn't in any way. But anti-semitism is really is often called the longest or the oldest hatred. It goes back to thousand years, it's has its roots in early church history. It was nurtured during the middle ages by church leaders, it morphed into more secular forms, it moved to the left with Karl Marx. It's been around for a long time and often people can flay all Jews with Israel. Or look at his rarely policies and analyze them or discuss them in antisemitic tropes, and anti-semitic means. And I think that's what happened on the with Representative, Omar. No, I don't want to debate. Whether or not congressman, Omar intended, her statements to be anti semitic or not let's set that right? Let's just set that aside for minute. But I would like to talk about why the words that she used were problematic. And there are several examples that will pick apart as the conversation goes on. There was a tweet she sent middle last month that support for Israel in the US is quote all about the Benjamins unquote, Natanz what was she trying to get at their. Well, the Benjamins, of course, means the money it's all about the money. And then she later image responded to tweet saying that it's APEC, the pro Israel, the main pro Israel lobbying group that supposedly uses money, and that's the subtext here that supporters of Israel, somehow use money Jewish money to buy a support from politicians in that otherwise there wouldn't be any kind of organic support for Israel in the United States. Now, of course, this raised concern because it echoes a lot of other sentiments that we've seen in the history of the Jewish people this claim that. Jewish money runs the world that it controls, politics or the media or the conversation. And that's why people were so sensitive to this to this one tweet before I come back to you, professor Lipstadt and the time, let's talk a little bit more about a pack the American Israel Public affairs committee. It is a very powerful lobbying organization here in DC. Yes, it is. It's ranked regularly one of the top lobbying groups should be noted that despite its name APEC is not a pack. So technically doesn't even raise money for candidates. It doesn't Emre candidates. But of course, many of a supporters are also donors of that the is support politicians. So that that's part of it. But APEC is a very big very effective lobbying group. But it's also the target of a lot of im- anti semitic 'em claims and attempts to demonize it for somehow controlling the conversation over Israel, and I think that's one of the pitfalls of the discussion. And that's what they we've seen happening in. Recent weeks. Read tweeted, I am Jewish. Andy critic of both APEC and Israeli policies. The problem with Omar is her Kubbaa Listrik view of Jewish influences. The cause of American support of these policies her talk of Benjamin's and allegiance. I I should know. By the way, we did invite congressman Omar to be a part of this conversation. She declined that invitation certainly stands now talking about that tweet and about the fallout from that tweet congresswoman, Omar got herself into more trouble speaking at an event at the end of February here, she is the audio may be a little hard to hear. But here's part of what she said last month. This country. That says is okay. Able to push for allegiance a foreign country. So that was part of the comments she made at the end of February referring to people pushing for allegiance to a foreign country. Now Natanson in a very literal sense. The United States is not Allegiant to Israel. We are allies of Israel. And there's a difference between allegiance, which is like a pledged devotion and ally ship, which is a shared set of of interests. And it seemed like that statement is the kind of statement that is readily read as antisemitic because it's the it's the kind of of of a rhetorical trope. That's come up before. Exact. But basically what people here when she says something that is American Jews that support Israel somehow have this dual loyalty, their their allegiance isn't only to the United States, but to foreign power to Israel, and that you can't be. Supportive of a policy that strengthens that supports strengthening the relationship between the United States and Israel without somehow pledging allegiance to Israel. And of course, when you go back to the past in this is one of those anti semitic tropes that the Jews have suffered for for centuries going back to the Dreyfuss affair, but but even if you think of recent American history in the internment camps for Japanese Americans were basically based on the same notion that immigrants or people from other ethnic groups cannot be loyal to the United States and still support relations with another country. I want to continue this conversation in just a moment with Netanyahu Edmund of his Rayleigh public TV and professor Deborah Lipstadt, the author of anti-semitism here. And now, we'll add two more voices to the conversation and consider how debates on US Israel policy play out in congress. I'm Joshua Johnson. Fled to be with you. You're listening to one A from W AMU and NPR. This message comes from NPR sponsor ADT, America's trusted home security company can help protect you against the break ins fires and carbon monoxide twenty four seven emergency response when you needed most more at ADT dot com. Wholesome and this week on Latino USA wisdom into one all female immigrant detention facility in Texas and a specific case to ask how and why this system allows for sexual abuse of detainees to continue year after year. That's this week on the USA. This is one A. I'm Joshua Johnson. Let's add two more voices to our conversation here with us in studio is knee hod Awad the executive director of care the council on American Islamic relations me hod, welcome to the program. Happy to be here. And Jeremy Benny is the president of j street and advocacy group that describes itself as pro peace and pro Israel. Jeremy welcome. Thank you for having. We want to focus on this over arching question of how legitimately debate and criticize Israel critique Israel without veering into antisemitism, or touching on anti semitic tropes. Wittingly or not. Jeremy you say that j street was founded. Because of a lack of space for that kind of clear headed debate. Where are you seeing those kinds of debates other than Jay street taking place are they happening right now at all, absolutely. They're happening all over the country. They're happening on college campuses. They are happening in the New York City council, they are happening in food co-ops. This this conversation is one of the most active political conversations around the country. One of the dynamics we see though is that those who choose to criticize and to make points that are not necessarily favorable towards Israel do immediately face charges that they are either anti Israel or anti semitic. And the question is how do you have that conversation? If those kinds of criticisms are immediately attacked and people are silenced in their debate by the charge of antisemitism knee. Love you to react to clip from Saturday Janine Piero is a weekend evening host. On Fox News. And she referenced congresswoman Ilhan Omar's comments on air Piero drew a comparison to Omar statement about allegiance to a foreign country that Fox News actually had to release a statement condemning here's part of what Janine Pirro said on her show, this Saturday night think about it Omar wears a he jab which according to the Koran thirty three colon fifty nine tells women to cover so they won't get molested is hurried Harris. This is llama doctrine indicative of her Herranz to sharia law, which in itself is antithetical to the United States constitution. That's part of Janine Piero's opening statement from her show on Fox News this past Saturday night in response, FOX released a statement that reads, quote, we strongly condemned Janine Piero's comments about Representative Ilhan, Omar, they do not reflect those of the network, and we have addressed the matter with her derive. Exactly unquote knee. Hodge Janie Piero was making a reference to a section of the Koran that refers to outer garments to coverings. It's worth noting that there is also a passage in the bible that tells women that they are to cover their heads during religious proceedings as a sign of their submission to men and to God. But we'll set that aside for a moment. What is your thought knee hot about both the statement? And FOX's response to the fifth is very offensive and should be condemned not only by Fox News. But by politicians by the media by all Americans who believe in the constitution, and obviously religious freedom is very part of our life. And you know, the hijab winning a garment all these religious practices are protected by the United States constitution, and it is part of American life. So to try to project of. Trey Ilhan as an invader of our you know, lifestyle and to condemn her for practicing. Religiously protected right in congress is highly offensive. In fact, we believe that the Fox News reaction is not sufficient does not go far enough to punish the commentator. We ask for her to be fired. And we're still waiting for more pressure to to show that Fox News is not going to elaborate onto Muslim sentiment before I come back to Jeremy, Nihad. Gee, I wonder whether or not you think that the fact that Representative Omar is Muslim feeds at kind of some of antisemitism or anti Israel belief. I mean, this is the first time we've had two Muslim women in congress Ilhan, Omar and Rashida to Leib we have had a Muslim male in congress. Keith ellison. Do you think that simply? Being Muslim leads to that kind of presumption of -solutely should not Muslims. Jews and Christians are part of the bre hammock tradition. We have to show respect the fiction to all these faith traditions. There is no room for Animas anti-semitism in our religion in our faith and our practice. But is there antisemitism in communities? Yes, there is an it should be condemned. But my point is here. Ilhan more is being misrepresented in these discussions. I believe they people are reading too much into what she said, rather what you know. She said Ilhan is refugee we have to see why she said what she said, I am refugee myself. She is uplifting refugees. She is uplifting. The issue of Palestine. She is a fresh voice of courage in congress. She should not be condemned. She should not be silo. Against the criticism of APEC and its policies in supporting Israel is difficult conversation. It's overdue, and we should have more conversations like this. Jeremy it seems like in some conversations, particularly as it relates to Israel Palestine, a pack the politics around Israel in America's stance. They're in it can be easy to shut down the debate by calling someone antisemitic. It seems like the charge of antisemitism is so charged that the minute someone brings it up discussion over absolutely I face this myself. We are often called self hating Jews if we're Jewish and we make these kinds of criticisms the current embassador to Israel, David Friedman called me and called my organization Jay straight worse than capos during the two thousand sixteen election, and yet he's the ambassador to Israel. This is a very common defense worse than capos worse than capos that. Capos are the folks who were in concentration against Jews in concentration camps who were in times employed or worked with the Nazi guards. And that makes you worse than Nazi. And these are considered to be the lowest of the low in the Jewish community. It is a very common defense mechanism to try to stop the debate about occupation about whether or not Israel is in fact, as democratic as we all hope it will be about whether or not settlements are hurting Israel's security about whether or not Israel is expropriating land from Palestinian private owners as soon as you start raising those issues, you get charged with antisemitism. And then you're debating anti semitism. Not the merits of the debate itself. Natanz Gutman, how do you see the impact of this on the larger debate around Israel? Granted there are people who have made legitimately anti comments toward Israel that are just like obviously on their face antisemitic. But this charge of antisemite. Resum? It almost clips is the policy debate. Because now we have to deal with the person instead of the policy and then the policy debate kind of goes nowhere. Well, of course, what happens, and I think the way out of it is just separating clearly anti semitic or problematic expressions from the policy discussion. And it's again, it's it's worth noting. That Representative Omar didn't make a statement about is rarely policies in when she discussed this issue. And I go back to Bernie Sanders. He's a harsh critic of Israeli policies. Was never shy of saying exactly what he thinks about the Netanyahu government about Israeli settlements to occupation about the way Israel conducted its war in Gaza, and no one ever accused him of being anti semitic. Because he was I think smart enough and careful enough to actually am find the right language to discuss these issues without touching on sensitivities that are real sensitive sensitivities that exist in the real world professional upset. How do you see this their number of issues here? First of all the charge. I agree that the charge of anti-semitism some are calling someone an anti Semite is loaded. It should be used judiciously, and it should be used when it when it's right and not as a weapon of politic particularly a political weapon on Representative. Omar Representative Omar used antisemitic means antisemitic tropes, antisemitic stereotypes, not once. But at least three times, and she she did apologize. Is which others? Haven't Representative king from Iowa on the Republican side never apologized for his comments on white supremacy and white nationalism, etc. But she said absolutely un- un- unequivocally. These were antisemitic stereotypes, she should be condemned for that she should not be demonized for wearing a he job that would be the same as demonizing someone from wearing a yarmulke. She should not be be acquainted with the nine eleven murderers as as was done by the Republican party in Virginia. Not only is that Marley wrong and Marley unacceptable, but on a lesser level. It's also strategically stupid. If you want to criticize criticize her for what she did. And don't bring in these other things and don't demonize her for observing her religion. And having said that the final point, and I think in relation to her that I wanna make at this point. Is that some have said she's young? She's. New. She doesn't understand. I'm sorry. I think that's the bigotry the soft bigotry of expectation. She's a member of the house. She gets a vote vote. Does not come with an asterisk young new doesn't quite realize it. She was a member of the state legislature in Minnesota before she came she met with Jewish colleagues. She met with others. So the young and the new just doesn't fly. It's it's really a a soft excuse. Well, I do kind of wonder about that. And he hot I wanted to get your take on this as well because we did get a little bit of feedback from our audience asking if maybe there is a generational aspect to this. Here is what Ashley from Connecticut left in our inbox. I let's just wondering because I haven't heard anybody really talk about it. If there's a generational element to discussing this because I feel like this millennial generation there are way too many people that don't understand the holocaust don't understand historical anti-semitism. But at the same time, I also feel like to some degree as somebody younger. I didn't read any of her comments as antisemitic. I've heard some people say she's using dog whistles. I've heard people say, you know, even things like it's all about the Benjamins that has to do with an antisemitic. Trope that's not how I read that at all. I really read that more as a young person expressing that there's money involved in policies and politicking, and that's exactly what's happening when we look at Israel, and there's been a major policy shift. So why shouldn't we question that? Why shouldn't we be concerned about what's happening there actually fix very much for sure on your thoughts with us? Nihad Awad, I wonder how you see this whether the generational aspect plays into congresswoman Omar's remarks, or whether that would just be kind of excusing bad behavior. I think the journalism aspect is very clear. She's she's young Chiro presents the voice of millions of Americans who believe that. It is time to talk about Israel without being anti semitic or without being called anti semitic. And I think that the overreaction the political overreaction to what she said, which she acknowledged that she could have used better words, you know, is missing the compensation arena conversation that she had an I listen to all her speeches. You have to look at the context in watch see what she said what she said. Which is we have to be open free from intimidation when we talk and criticize the US foreign policy, and it's supported the state of Israel. Now, she's talking about the nation state law. For example, the fact that the the prime minister of Benjamin Netanyahu said just a few days ago that Israel is the nation state of Jews alone. So he's saying that you know, Israel is only for Jews. This is the issue. Can we debate this without being called anti semitic? Is it time to call out? Apec when it exerts. Undue pressure on our policymakers that is the question if we tried to suppress this debate by using labels that are sometimes legitimate. But I believe in this occasion. It is illegitimate is just an overreaction and trying to silence the voice of a fresh, and renewed a needed voice that is all Han almost voice and other people like with regards to that remark. From Benjamin Netanyahu Goldie tweeted to quote, BB Israel belongs to Jews alone. If that's not apartheid. What is she's referring to accommodate on Instagram that said, quote, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people and them alone on we'll talk more about the politics of all this when we get back. Stay clubs. This message comes from NPR sponsor Rossi's ralphie's is the everyday flat for life on the go. That comes in four fashionable styles for women, the flat, the point the loafer and the sneaker fund designs and patterns while still looking polished and professional with new colors launched every few weeks. Best of all RAF. These are made from recycled plastic water bottles and completely machine washable. So you can feel good about wearing them. Go to Rossi's dot com and enter code one a to get your flats and free shipping life. Kate is like that friend you go she when your toughest parenting moments. So my answer was do you believe Lucas, you're so Socratic wife kit for parents and audio guide from NPR and the experts at sesame workshop check it out in apple podcasts or at NPR dot org slash life kit back now to our conversation. Let's talk a little bit more about the politics of this last week on Thursday, the democratic house. Voted to pass a resolution as we mentioned condemning anti-semitism and other types of hatred. It didn't mention congresswoman Omar's comments about Israel. Specifically here is part of what President Trump had to say about that on Friday. The Democrats have become an anti Israel party. They become an anti Jewish party. And I thought that vote was disgraced. And so does everybody else if you get an honest answer, professor Lipstadt, and Jeremy Ben me, I'd love to get your reaction to what the president said at the beginning of that clip that the Democrats have become an anti Israel party. They've become an anti Jewish party. Professor, how do you read that? I find it at -rageous. I what I find that to be the weaponising of anti-semitism and use it as a cudgel against the people on the other side. So the right uses it to beat up the left and the left uses it to beat up the right, and what people do that they lose all credibility certain my book because then after. Wonder that do they really care about anti-semitism or are they just using it to score political points? And I think in that case that was what was happening there that I was distressed about. What happened with the resolution is another matter? Jeremy it's over related, man. I just can't agree with the professor more the weaponization of this issue as she said earlier demeans the important charge. But I think the critical question that we have to address a country is where does this atmosphere of hate and intolerance and bigotry start, and it starts with the person you played the clip from it starts at the very top. This this country is suffering now after years of Donald Trump in our national dialogue. Introducing this notion of division and bigotry and the use of race and immigration and other divisive cultural issues for political gain. And I think if the congress is going to have a resolution that is going to name. Somebody and hold somebody accountable. It's time for the political leadership congressional leadership to step forward and call out the president of the United States for the way in which he has led this country down this path. Let me get to a few of your comments Elias emailed as a Jew. I am obviously very sensitive to anti-semitism. But I don't think Ilhan Omar has been treated fairly. It is perfectly acceptable to criticize how money from supporters of Israel and APEC, which includes many evangelical Christians unduly influences American policy, just as we can criticize how supporters of the NRA influence gun policy that gets to something that the congresswoman also said she talked about a pack again at later event when she spoke about the tweet and its fallout. Here's part of what she said. Why is it? For me, the to the influence of the array of fossil fuel industries or be pharma. And not talk about our poll Oppy. That is in. Part of Ilan Omar's comments at that later event miata wad. What do you make of that comment? Why it's okay for her to talk about some things and not others in this in this comment. And again, as I said, I hear most of her speeches that that address this issue. She exposes the hypocrisy of the Democratic Party who will talk about racism here. But they're not willing to talk about racism empanel Stein. What is she saying? Now is what Martin Luther King junior said in the past Justice is indivisible. You can talk about under Simitis without talking about Islamophobia. You cannot talk about racial Justice without talking about MC Justice. You cannot condemn hatred against one group of people, but the silent about another group of people he said injustice anywhere is a threat to Justice. Every exactly so she's calling out the Democratic Party leadership. And she is providing this platform now to other people to break the tab. And she successfully broke the up. Who of talking about Israel, and how do you think the Palestinians, maybe she did not elaborate in many, many of your comments? And that's why they're taking it out of context. But I think they should allow her to speak more about this and get to the depths of CI means because what she means is she is calling for Justice equality and freedom for all people here at home and abroad as well. Qatar emailed a have Jewish heritage as a person who could suffer the consequences of antisemitism. I am concerned about Representative Omar's word choices. But I hear your guests playing down apex influence as purely pro Israel. That's not quite correct. Apec has become pro Likud Israel's right wing political party. And they effectively align themselves with the Republican party their influence on our politics is problematic at best Natanz could you respond to that? Also, just by way of kind of explaining what a pack is. Is a very powerful lobby that was set up to strengthen the US Israel relations relationship and to support a m- certain things that I think are probably in broad consensus, like military aid to Israel meant to counter in regional threats. Supporting the idea that Israel is an ally of the west or someone that can help host of the west, and that's a Cold War notion in the Middle East, and basically they do that by like any other group would do by lobbying by a gathering supporters. We're going to see him twenty thousand of them in Washington the end of the week for for the annual meeting. They have about one hundred thousand members they raise a an enormous amount of money about one hundred million dollars year. They take members of congress to trips to as real a to show them that is ready side of of the conflict and why they should support and they work with the politicians from from the the initial levels from. From the moment, they enter politics, even as a college or high school president and until they work their way up to Washington. So they get the message a from fr- from APEC. And in general APEC strives to be bipartisan you can look at their board. It really tries to be bipartisan. It's more difficult to do that a because as the that isn't as commented there is a staticy to see a pack as more pro Likud. But the fact of the matter is that Israel is pretty cool that the Likud m has been in control of Israeli politics for a couple of decades already Netanyahu is a prime minister for the past ten years. So it's difficult to be a pro Israel lobby and claim to be bipartisan when Israel is controlled by one side of the map Bill who is here. In Washington emailed. I'm concerned with a trend. Icy of non-jews debating what Jews should see as anti semitism. It'll be hard to imagine. This kind of debate with other minority groups in our country, for example. Are we comfortable with whites debating what African Americans should? And shouldn't view as racist. Professor lipstadt. What do you make of that comment? I've heard that comment before and I've actually voiced it in some respect we do see on the progressive left than not everyone. But in certain circles, you certainly see this in the United Kingdom in the labor party with people, Jeremy Corbyn and people around him, Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the labour party telling Jews that's not anti-semitic will define what anti-semitism is. Now. I do think that people outside a group get a chance to weigh in. But there's been a certain trend more so than I think in terms of racism, and it's wrong. When happens with racism of telling the victim what they should. And should not feel and what is meant. And what is not meant a no, we're low on time. But my hot is there one aspect is there one thing that you would ask people to do as they discuss these kinds of issues that would lead to. A better public discussion about Israel about Israel policy, anti semitism. What's at the top of your wishlist briefly before we gotta go for people to improve this conversation. Well, this is very very personal issue. For me. I am a Palestinian refugee myself. My family was kicked out of their home Lord in nineteen forty eight. And I was born and raised in refugee camp. The rest of my family still lives in Palestine as second-class citizens. I am an American citizen. My government since two point three eight billion dollars in new aid military aid to Israel to mystery the indigenous population there, I need to have this freedom to speak about APEC. It's undue influence on our foreign policy without being called anti semitic. I care about Jews and we need to condemn all forms of hatred, but we should open the discussion freely without intimidation about this very important and since shop subject, Jeremy before we go. What would you? What's your top of your wish? For how people should be discussing. These things briefly. The the key is to be able to have a conversation about the actual events and facts on the ground without having those who disagree de legitimize you personally, the questions that Nihad is raising the questions at stake here are deeply controversial deeply personal emotional. And we need to be able to have a rational conversation, which is very very hard. Of course, Jeremy Benham, the president of j street, Jeremy thanks for spending time with us. Thank you, Nevada. Wa the executive director of care the council on American Islamic relations and the thank you. Thank you. Professor. Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University. Her book is called antisemitism here. And now, thanks professor. Thank you, very much and the Tom Gutman Washington correspondent for Israeli public TV. Thanks, thanks. This show was produced by Avery Kleinman and edited by maranda full more you can learn more about them and the rest of our team online at the one A dot org slash staff. This program comes to you from W AMU part of American University. In Washington distributed by NPR until we meet again, I'm Joshua Johnson. Thanks for listening. This is one A.

Israel Representative Omar APEC United States professor Lipstadt Jeremy congress president professor American Israel Public affairs Joshua Johnson Representative NPR Omar Representative Omar Omar US Israel Natanz Gutman Israel Palestine Palestine Representative Ilhan
407: Mosab Hassan Yousef | The Green Prince of Hamas

The Jordan Harbinger Show

1:16:52 hr | 9 months ago

407: Mosab Hassan Yousef | The Green Prince of Hamas

"Coming up on the Jordan Harbinger Show The special forces on the ground got the green light from the intelligence that I am inside the house still there like punch of Merkava tanks ten of them storming in the city it's like an earthquake happening it become like a war zone right now. So my family right now is up in the fire. So when I don't certain the they evacuate my family I, they launch a missile into the House and they spray bullets like all over the world like in my roommate had about hundred fifty bullets just in the war. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger show we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people. If you're new to the show, we have in depth conversations with people at the top of their game astronauts on preneurs by psychologists even the occasional former jihadi each show turns our guests wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker today my friend Musab Hassan. It's heavy one first of all so much. So they've made a movie about it called. The Green Prince will link that in the show notes from Assab Rolling up Hamas was the family business. If you're not familiar with Hamas, this is a group that is on the US terrorist watchlist and operates primarily in Israel Palestine elsewhere in the area, of course, including the United States Europe. These things do tend to spread in that area of the world collaborating with Israel is the worst thing anyone can do. It's literally seen as worse than raping someone in your own family. His Dad was a very respected Islamic leader with a major following and a lot of respect all over the country and his father is essentially the leader of Hamas in Palestine and spent over twenty five years in Israeli prison just think. About that twenty five years locked up in Israeli prison. So he gets out of prison takes Musab as his assistant essentially the gatekeeper to all of these folks. Thus, Musab becomes the closest son to the leader of AMAS. This made him the single most important asset of the Israeli security service. Once he was recruited. So today I WANNA go over Musab story of HAMAS getting recruited by Israel, and eventually escaping that entire situation. You'll. Have to forgive the audio quality on this one it's a little bit rougher than usual. This was recorded in undisclosed location. For obvious reasons we didn't have our usual stuff and they were a little bit of issues there. That's just what happens when you're recording something with somebody who is essentially on the run many groups including al-Qaeda. Still have a death sentence hanging over Musab head. So I do hope you enjoy this if you're. Wondering, how I managed to get these amazing guests it's because of my network and persistence and teaching you how to create your own network whether it's for business reasons. Personal reasons check out our course six minute networking at Jordan Harbinger, dot com slash course most of the guests on the show they subscribe to the course they contribute to the chorus come join us. You'LL BE IN SMART Company. Now here's Musab Hassan the green prints. By the way initially, this is like one of the I've known you for a while and I feel like we go way back. But this is one of the hardest shows to book. Initially, you didn't even want to do it right your manager like couldn't reach you and or the book publisher I should say couldn't reach you. Can we talk about that a little bit? You know a I said what they had to say I don't like repetitions know just keep it a bit myself again, and again through a media outlets might publish. From, their point of view they want me to promote the book, which is a product for me. If I said something even to one person is already contributing consciousness to the world I don't need to would be two thousand times I take a break I. Think a step back evaluate my actions, evaluate my movement alone from my mistakes you know I'm not like a blogger or a politician or a religiously the Reno's like wants to control the Punch of sheep individual and respect my individuality sometimes I feel bankrupted there is nothing else to say. and. I just dwell into silence. You know I'm not afraid to say have nothing to say that was the truth. You know I hope that you take it. Personally I think no, it was great and I, think you're a great person than when time comes on so that you were like insisting you know that's Okay see maybe there's something. Well I appreciate that I mean you do have very strong beliefs and your story is really impressive because of that because you basically were put in a place where you had to correct me if I'm wrong here, you you almost had to trade your home to do what you thought was right Yo-. You had to trade your home in your family to do what you thought was right in the end not the only harm. In fact, I had to die to the old son I have to die to everything that I knew my friends to my family to my culture, my society in my securities, all of them everything I knew all the knowledge that they had. Of the sudden had to choose between that, all the things that any rarely useless and I walk into the unknown not knowing what's GonNa be next what's going to be tomorrow and that's all for the sake of my year trade them not to be enslaved. To expectations of a certain society on a certain group of people including my own parents. I don't want to say that this is the ultimate prize had to go through a lot from torture to a like literally death. You know my heart stop the level of pressure that they had to go through my heart stop for approximately thirty seconds was the human beings cannot make it back in. This is the level of trust that was gone through. Whose family it was home to lose my sense of security my sense of being which practically now I know that it was just a false sense of being. Let's start from the beginning because a lot of people don't really know. Your story of course, but they also don't necessarily know what how massive can you explain what it is for people who've maybe never heard of it or only heard of it on the news how mass is an? Islamic. Movement. Like on the car the. Bond La jihadists understood those groups of course it has a 'cause. It has a national 'cause has a religious 'cause. Now, the United States of America and the rest of the free world actually Hamas terrorist organization. My father is one of the founding members of Hamas in the seven. Founders Hamas at some point was my project. Hamas for us was everything. For me as a person who was born in the heart of Hamas leadership and wins Thomas Evolution from the moment establishment to the point where became an army and a main player in the stability of the East region it fascinates. I cannot even say what Hamas is is Hamas nineteen, Eighty, seven, the I was born or is it Thomas two, thousand three killing thousands of people sending dozens of suicide bombers is a Thomas the political movement or is it Tamazight religious movement is a it's a month when you say that it's a monster, I mean I want to get into the. Lucien of this I actually, of course I've read the book I watched the movie will link to those things in the show notes as well. You grew up with HAMAS throwing roxette convoys, Israel, lead convoys, and things like that. Your Dad was in Hamas your grandfather was in a mess. What was your turning point where you realize like Oh, I'm in the middle. Of this organization I mean I. Know When you were young the police the Israeli soldiers I should say came to your House to talk to your dad for five minutes was that story the beginning of your experience it almost seems as you tell it in the book that that's the beginning of what you realize. Oh, this is a real thing that I'm. In here this is like a family legacy that's pretty serious. First of all, my father was arrested by Israeli forces many times. It was just released the few weeks ago. He spent more than twenty five years in Israeli prisons and the tribunal I grew up where a punch of uniform soldiers considered by the Palestinian society might society them as the enemy the occupier? We did not like them actually we hated them and we want them dead and for that. They would come the my father and his other Hamas. And other Palestinian factions. It was a war zone. You know not only arrested my father. We're not talking about like you know the police coming into some protesters house and them in California you know we're still can about army coming into the house rivals pointing at the everybody sometimes there was shooting and sometimes that was clashes outside sometimes sugar got shot sometimes Ilgar is got. Thousands of people died during the first specimen father and I was living just right next to the cemetery of the town which as a child at the age of ten I witness, the burial of dozens, hundreds of people on daily basis. You know the body's just kept coming coming coming of course, talking about threats now sounds exaggerating but like even. For me right now it's very hard to believe that I had to go through that to see the human pro-taliban. It's not as simple as just like, no, the dog my daddy you know away. You know on the child now have some prejudices. Were talking about hard core human ugly side. You know as ugly as it can get with everybody's living in fear where everybody wants to shoot everybody where everybody's trapping everybody. So in this chaos. Chaos where the truth is lost, where where tried on asleep the no. A better. Chore. My father was the truth and what to do with those uniform soldiers coming into the house to just my father and of course, any trial if you went in my position, you would hate them. But that was not only a personal thing was ideological thing it was. A national thing, all the groups, religious groups. If you go to the mosque, the Mola's or the imams are inciting those book, your body's GonNa. Feed on the world is inciting against the occupation, the media, the family, the parents many external. Forces are pushing you to believe in one thing this very very. Dangerous conditioning process. When did you change the view or did you change the view of your father? You know like a lot of us we look at our dads we see this hero when did you change your view from my dad as a hero to my dad is a complicated man that could rationalize the deaths of a lot of people. Of course, this is of Aleutian. There was like a moment to just figure out everything than I would like forever. But in the to go through that moment. To realize. But this is another Lucien. An idea something you know my father and his likes and I don't mean disrespect my father by any means I love him but I don't respect him. That much at some point he was Unin Spiratou the freedom fighter was the one who sacrificing his life Israeli prisons all that but today under he's just Wearing a mask. By the name of the cause Palestinian costs which edited by these costs and by the name of got or by the name of Allah that's then got or by the name of a certain ideology or liberating the people free in the people, every individual can have their own. Version of truth and the hide behind it, own the desire than the less than the hatred and the human. Delusion. I'm my father is no different. I wish it'd that he was of a higher understanding enough to just see that he's just driven by hate. Lust. Angola. and when the an individual's blinded to that degree, they would cause harm they cause damage and the mind will always find a way to justify its actions on one hand. He would kill blow people up on the other hand says like, okay you know we are defending our should not killing and others were defendant our should. And same mind that him the truth, the same mind that him the light as well. Tell me about I don't mean to to chuckle at this story but when I think about it, it's almost a little bit funny because it's like your teenage moment here you're eighteen years old and you decide to buy a load of guns. What's first of all what? What what was that all about that was like the worst plan ever While you know it's I grew up in their. John. Gordon. For. Just takes not only by the way from. An Israeli hatred also that I evaluate the Palestinian factions within the society, you know the P. A. versus Hamas. Cutter but his Public Front Anthony other factions. If you don't have guns, nobody respects you in the country and if you don't have power, they will crush you. There, there was no government there. Caught up with additions basically criminals committing crimes against humanity. So the GRUB in this type of environment, you should not be very surprised that. Of the environment decided to go buy guns, it's not like if I grew up in California San, Diego, then all of a sudden decided to become against go buy guns as the Arctic but for that region is normal today looking back of course was the because it could have been killed is late the guns gut me trouble they got imprison and spent sixteen months in Israeli prisons a was tortured. There was beaten up by soldiers I was different from sleeping for months I was cultured mentally, and physically you know that I still have marks on my face from that torture. When I look back, it's really scary to just remember the mindset that I was walking it but sometimes it's a blessing to go through a mind the not knowing somebody and see it. And when you get out, then you realize it was a minefield otherwise probably would have not survived in the prison. What's going through your mind in there? Like do you think you're going to be locked up in there? Forever they're not being nice to you like you said, there are beating you up there torturing you. They're not letting you sleep like, what are you thinking at eight? When you're locked up like that, I just can't imagine it. You know it's very hard for any human language to convey a human feeling on the human experience of this debt you know to really express pain probation on anger. Confusion. Why all this happening on one hand, you know I was for a lot by my. My Own Society you know as a child that was abused as a child I was hurt badly then I was beaten up you know by the parents and by the teacher by the other gets in the streets. I was bullied was it was amazing to know that there is like an external enemy that could blame everything on that enemy which happens to be Israel. Go on blaming Israel, and now you buy guns and you want to kill Israelis to just express your anger and your hatred on one thing. For me it's really like, of course, I can get emotional about it right now on the. Cycle it's unjust world. It's unfair but today as differently I see it as the greatest school of my life, you know the brutality of the human society and the human societies. By the way it just showed me you know something about my own nature and I had the truce though I want to be like this image or go. I want to transform and more refine higher consciousness that can handle pressure that can handle pain. So today really. Hard for me to go back and recreate the the blaming mentality. You know that what they did to me in prison what did to me as a child why the diplomats at school it's very hard for me to recreate honestly GonNa because without those events, I would have not been able to transcend the actually mad to transcend the limitation off the human conditioning in prison I know you had to choose a faction Hamas, PFLP, Palestinian Authority, or. Or. Something else and you initially I guess agreed, how did it come to be that you agreed to collaborate with the Sheen bet the Israeli internal intelligence service because that seems like a really hard choice to make after growing up in one place and it's like, okay I guess I'll be the worst thing that everyone considers you know collaborator how do you make that choice? So back in the nineteen nineties COUPLE HAMMAS members succeeded in infiltrating Israel intelligence. They were double agents. They were heroes in the among the Hamas movement. The most sophisticated because you know Hamas does not have intelligence like strong intelligence like this rain intelligence. And to be actually able, the food is rated innocence and the double play. was like a really bad, ass the Palestinians straight. So everybody wants it somehow to do it and I was just another idiot we thought that they could actually afford those radiant finishes. So this is why I agreed to work with Israel with a hidden agenda or hidden intention is simply to be. Sure. Okay. That makes sense. But what happened laser thousands of Hamas members in prison and now Hamas didn't know how their members and their sales and their secret operation was exposed by. So they wanted to know was actually. where the rats so they started torturing their on people anybody any suspect? and. They were tortured them brutally, and the peak of their torture was during the time when I was. That was back in nineteen, ninety, six, ninety, seven hundreds of prisoners were tortured dozens were killed and the level of brutality of what they did to human beings. Exceeds anybody's imagination. You know and I don't exaggerating when I say this imagine putting needles under someone's fingernails in on just like let them experience pain will slowly for months to squeeze information from them. You know as they scream at a member, they would just put us. So bar in prisoners mouth then Kai with a towel on the outside blindfolded as you know the that burn plastic on their a biscuit. So basically, this what Hamas was doing in prison to any suspect who had any relationship with Israel intelligence and here I, am coming into prison you know with actually a relationship with no with no intention through a spiral own people or. Committing treason or betrayed. I would never betray my father, for example, so I thought Hamas. Hey guys, this is a situation. I had agreed to work for Israel. And they have some mentions he said. Okay. Right the down side, I doubt the story to the And they come back with more questions. I. Said that don't have answers for those questions like for example, who is your network that they give you a special device? What's your mission knuckled them? Simply this rated said, go to prison spend your time. It's like a cover. And after you released, we will be in touch with the did not give me a mission they did not give me a device they did not give me a network. It did not connect me to a handler and there was a trip. So some Hamas did not believe minorities and the fit their imagination. So they start questioning and this is where I felt. Hammock my own father's organization that we as a family. Sacrificed everything. So it can live here I am face-to-face with this month's the. I'm even telling them the simple truth. That I'm not a trade, is that photo they did not discover you know just give for ordinary said hey I have a relationship. Established a relationship. In principle I never did any mission for Israel and I have a national agenda I want to revenge from those enemies our society. But Hamas did not believe. They start intricate. Of course, my father was not there to protect me in prison. And I became other sudden accused in for nothing I did. And that was the moment where I. So Hamas true face that they truly don't see Israel as the enemy also I can't be their enemy anybody else down and we just disagree with them. DILEMMA TRUTH THAT Isn't there truth and they would hate you they would interrogate you. They were tortured. and. This is what basically they were for many other prisoners this when I stopped having action to my dow about other prisoners being tortured and killed I know that I was innocent. And if all these prisoners also wear people. So basically, as you see I don't have like a simple answer to say, yes or no go to work with Israel to take revenge from them. But somehow like I ended up working for them to the Moslems opposes the Christian to the Christians poses a Moslem to the Israelis the Palestinians to the Palestinian. Israeli agent, all the opposite extremes of lights exist within my journey. For ME I. Learned how to swim against the current some people tell me. Okay. So you cross the river to the other side and was it greener on the other side an essay the truth is it wasn't greener. You know when I swam I got to the other side it was not the Grena but then what was the point was the point of departing assay simply a learn how swim against the current. And in order for us to see our higher potential, it doesn't matter where we came from. Your listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest the Green Prince. Musab Hassan. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by VR clothing I. Love this stuff I'm wearing it literally right now I mean, let's admit it. It's kind of sweatpants week month year I guess. Year. 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There's always free returns give it a go and head over to the ORI clothing dot com slash Jordan for twenty percent off your entire order the O. R. I., CLOTHING DOT COM. Slash Jordan. This episode is also sponsored by hostgator. Sure. I used to be just like you Adrift Without website to call my own on a merciless internet that didn't care if I came across to the world like some kind of schmuck and a Google search, but then somebody introduced me to hostgator. Now wised up real quick. See I came in from the cold I took control over my Internet presence and best of all it was super simple and it didn't cost me an arm and a leg or even a secret family recipe. Thanks to hostgator is ludicrous generosity every plan provides you. With limitless bandwidth, disk space and email addresses, and if you're like thirty percent of the web, you're GONNA WANNA use wordpress to power your site and host gator has the tools to make it as easy as spreading butter on your breakfast toast. Additionally, you're guaranteed ninety nine percent up time with twenty, four, seven, three, sixty, five support and a forty, five day money back guarantee if you aren't completely satisfied visit hostgator dot com slash Jordan to get up to sixty two percent off that's hostgator dot com slash Jordan and now back to Musab. Hassan. The green prints on the Jordan Harbinger show. You'd said the world I knew was relentlessly eroding beginning to reveal another world. I was just beginning to understand what the Israelis were teaching. Me was more logical and real than anything I had ever heard from my own people. This is how you felt when you were first released or maybe you were still in prison with low I this sheen bet officer explaining that Hamas destroys itself more from the inside than anything Israel could do from the outside, but it sounds like you see that happening everywhere it is happening. Yes I experienced slavery. Yes. The Israelis wanted to provoke intelligence within me because they wanted me to be affected. So you know they invested in me you know as as a human being I'm grateful to that. You know when talk about intelligence services, this has been actually or had been one of the biggest schools of my life because somehow also we created reality you know and I saw the creation of reality in what really creates public opinion and what really manipulates public perception of a certain. Thank we do something on the ground. Then you see something on the media that is completely opposite of what we did on the ground then you start seeing like the gap. Between, truth. And perception trove. Of course you know they invested me as individual. You know and they wanted me to go to school and Finish University and that was the first thing and the now I understand why? Because I was much more effective that way. But also when we talk about Israel entities, it is a prisoner of its own. This type of organizations forget about did you go in and the your chance to get out only as a corpse? You know so they invest in you counting that you would never find your way out the truth at that level and the power that the experience within Israeli in diligence or any other intelligence service. We're. Talking. About power. On we're talking about thrilling divisions zone, we'll talk about real clash in all like huge orchestration. You know that deceives additions and meet the. Average people and the you can create any scenario to anybody make them believe in it and they would believe in so when I was playing At a very young age and. Ask stock having a taste of that power game. This is what the everybody's fighting for thirsty for you know to experience power. But for me, it was another of slavery. And the ad did not like the fact that all that power that was experience it was just basically servant. The engine does of politicians in a certain state which I'm not against I, love. I love Israel very much. You know and it's very, it will continue to be uninspiring model. For me in such a beautiful nation, such beautiful people and they inspire me. But I don't want to be for the rest of my life or I did not want to be for the rest of my life as part of Israeli intelligence and. Secret Operation on daily basis you know in the morning something and the afternoon something under the evening something else the game of deception and reverse psychology and all that the intelligence services do it's effective and it works it's limited I want to just to try to convey the as in two might be in the what they have. What have learned as a child what I've learned growing up what they have learned from all the hardships at they had an artist. So I did not want to cut the part in which was the part that would condemned me. To execution. The death penalty. which was my affiliation with Israeli additions. and. That was the hardest part. But I needed to be honest wouldn't be able if they did not recognize my work with is ready did not reveal or expose me out of myself on a step forward and tell them. This is the honest truth I know. Now you're going to seem as trade and I know that you're going to concede five for this, but you do it. But for me, I'm going to tell you the truth if I thought ten years to save him lives on databases. Why should I be ashamed of it? Why should I be ashamed of it but but the point I did not want to stay in the intelligence game in the deception game for eternity and I wanted to find my freedom. So I got out I got out to a higher truth but also that was not. Why wouldn't they let you have relationships with women I thought that was weird. You know that you're talking a lot about like they're sort of going through some of the rules. First of all, it doesn't seem like they trained you at all. Three out there, and they basically only had a few roles, one of which was no relationships with women what what's up with that? It's very strange. To hear that the Israeli intelligence did not want. To have a relationship with a woman yeah. For them, they wanted me to always be and continue to be the amass member the one who goes to the most the one who follows the code of conduct of my society. the God respect. The parents don't cross the red lines than do something that is morally offensive through the eyes of that society. Even the the very ones you know who were telling me the stories disagree with that. But right now they wanted to be the They don't want me to hang out with with women, which is not acceptable to the Arab and Muslim culture severely conservative society. So the Israeli intelligence understand the situation and they don't want me to go and do something. That is abnormal something that is not acceptable by my onset than if I might opposition, nobody would respect me. Then I would not have access to the religious leaders, which basically wear the very terrorists that we need to establish relationships with them and what they are up to I had a relationship. You know I'd like secret relationship with a woman that was love with but we really like had to like hide and then go like to a different town. You just go out for lunch. You know it was like a long journey impossible to even like jumped some fences enough to. Risk my life in to just go and meet with her visit a Palestinian woman or were you dating Israeli woman she? She was actually Edison and this why actually? What mid Israel intelligence actually goal against the they in fact asked me not to hang out with this woman anymore and I think they were right you know because it was dangerous for the woman and it was dangerous for me she was. Very important to me not that I would not even in that culture it's very, very hard for women's you know if a woman hangs out with a man and it's pretty simple loses her virginity or something like that, and she would never be able to marry again and that's it. It's like a an culture unfortunately and please forgive me for the comparison but it's like a second hand car and it would always be like a second hand car not like the United States and I was like a divorced woman or a single is just a single woman you know single ordinary relationship. They're much more definitions of like, okay. This version is not version you know and the seventy versions you know it's a big thing in that culture. SORTA Dick but again, this is the human deluge but anyway it my personal life was not easy but managed somehow against the odds ought to enjoy in a moments of my early life. You know as a youth as a young man and it was very nice adventure. Today, looking back in also like NC cycle, there was love there are site, go meet a woman you know to jump the fence and the live the. Hides Somewhere Shinjiro look and the you know do all impossible just like it's spend with hurrying us like half an hour and that's it. Though was something you know. But here we are and alone what you did uncover a lot of suicide bomber sells terror cells and I assume you had to be pretty careful because the Palestinian. Authorities government of the Palestinian territories at the time they had CIA eavesdropping gear that they could easily have used both against terrorists and against people who are collaborators right I mean you must have really been kind of between rock and hard place because. Now might be via authority in Gaza and the West Bank but back, then it was not. So you were being hunted by Israel by the Palestinian police by. Mass by everybody that must have been a lot of pressure. Only have to do everybody's looking for you and simply just look with them. It's everybody's like who is this motherfucker know who is passing day information who you know, and you just ask the same questions and if people are looking just go with them. You know and look for that person. Would, never figured out. I had a very good cover and as I told you before it was like walking in a minefield. I'll truly minefield. I was not only target for the Israeli intelligence now was also. was also. On top of intelligence services in all in the region and when you are in the spotlight as the son of a top leader of that of addition of all the chaos that's happening in on very close to decision making in the asset fat meetings and other top for the leaders the very close to Hamas media wing and understand the culture and hanging out with like basically Cobb wanted top terrorists in the region from the bomb maker, the suicide bomber to the mastermind behind them. You become just target for everybody and the of course, everybody's looking for only a handful of people know who you are even within the Israeli intelligence a hand put a biblical about my existence even when I had the solid intelligence, you know like Abou- for example I had information about over the Gaza Strip one year before Hamas took over and I thought the as an intelligence Hamas is going to take over Gaza. They are planning for this they're building an army underground army. Not Make sense they were like, no, this is. They want to be able to pull this together even if they had the intention to do so you know they cannot do this impossible. The Palestinian Authority is the ten times the size of Hamas and Gaza Strip. They've got much more guns cut much more members and they have the support of the whole world you know. Wouldn't be able to take over the ship and troll fat. House. Not. These, he says so they could have stopped it could have stopped it. And looking at what happened and how many wars happening Gaza Strip today. So sometimes, you know you just don't take seriously a piece of information there isn't I said this at this level of intelligence you know when you have like sodded information, it goes to the Prime Minister for example, now, the province that does not seem any on that he would only see symbols and if there was any piece of information that would lead to me, they would take out or the crossed out. So even the report that the head of the state I would be totally quoted, and so they don't recognize why was this is how much? The was very serious. You know on my life was endangering also if I get cut I am done month of seconds that sit I would be with the crowd with punch of militia. Men waving with rifles with rage angry who the fuck Gabe information it would be me just right Nixon and you just need to trust you know anything could happen anything. Were you only doing this like you couldn't share your life with a woman you couldn't tell any are you friends you definitely couldn't tell your family nobody other than your handlers sheen bed. So Israeli intelligence and even then I mean they're like they're not your friends people that you you're working with you can't just call them on Friday because you're feeling bored or alone or isolated right was lonely you know disturbed lonely. Case. If I now came to the crew, do Jordan that is like, Hey, i. want to send you a mission of your wife in leave everything behind goal behind the enemy lines and it would be totally strange culture than maybe you would experience that I was alone for for sure but I was still within my own culture playing the same role that actually the majority of my society wanted me to play I just needed to be careful. So they didn't know the other roles that happens when you do things like this in understand the traits. If Hamas donuts for money. If I was doing it for revenge. If I was doing it for like any other human think then I would have greater fear. But. If you keep your combat. That the more on doing this, we're stopping suicide bombing attacks source said bombing at that lead to death. Then they lead to recreation from the then they lead to more chaos. And those people by the way, the victims of suicide bombing attacks not only Israel. Is Out of Israel's Muslims America. It's like the Hebrew University for example, six Americans were students at the cafeteria. On campus. And I knew the people actually who sent those suicide bombers candidat that one of them is Ibrahim. Habit and. The located, which was wanted for about eight years. Wow now, he's spending life terms in Israel to prison sort of talking about high profile players that did not only kill Israelis. You know they killed Americans, they killed all type of people. So now when you have a new head of your is in this better dangerous game okay. All the money in the world is not going to give security or give you comfort in the situation actually even if you if you were paid the same millions, what are you gonNa do with the money you live in a small town where all on the ice on you and even if you had all that money, you can spend it because he would be exposed immediately. In fact is rating diligence did not like the fact that they have access to money from other sources like the US aid or my father. They were very careful to kill me what how you spend the money that you take from your father because people might think that we are the ones giving you the money. You know and it was. Has Given me the money. So practically, it's a very dangerous thing and what can keep one life such. A situation is your moral compass what audio fighting. And now I'm such a small player in the game. But this small wrong that I'm having can save human lice. And this meant the world. To me. This is why I was alone but I was not laundy. You know that bombing at the Hebrew University cafeteria eight at that cafeteria every single day and the bomb was probably about three feet away from where I used to sit every time. So there's a I had left Israel already but few months away from not being able to have this conversation. That's for sure because I was it was right there in the French Hill, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Wow. Brother That the your here, we are talking I'm so glad. that. Eventually, Hamas military wing in the West. Bank. The head of the Hamas military wing, which was Abraham Hamid that was very sophisticated. The operation you know that I brought him back to justice you know and the I say proudly, of course, a team effort but without the intelligence that somehow existence gave me, we would have not in time. So now utilize like thank God I'm alive oversight. Thank God knows like many others are like because this man was brought to justice was put in prison. This is the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Musab Hassan. The green prince will be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Passion Economy Podcast, this show is hosted by the fantastic business reporter Adam Davidson, he created the show planet money for the new. Spent a lot of time covering dark sad stories about the economy and this time. This is a little bit more optimistic reliving in a time where the economy is more confusing, unpredictable and frankly scarier than ever before. But this same economy just might offer us unprecedented opportunity to do some really cool stuff on the passion economy podcast host Adam Davidson he speaks to people who've done just that by channeling their unique passions and interests in two successful businesses. Every week he sits down with real people who figured out a way to thrive in the economy, and then unpack their stories for the valuable lessons that we can apply to our own lives. So you to learn how to. 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So you can check out those amazing sponsors for yourself and support US along the way visit Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals don't forget. We've got worksheets for today's episode that link is also in the show notes at Jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast, and now for the conclusion of our episode with Musab Hassan Green Prints. You knew you're pushing your luck in would eventually get caught right. So the Sheen but the idea if they launched this massive, I guess fake also totally real operation to arrest you and the way you tell it in the book, they set up this operation to pretend to try and catch you and it was like this massive special forces operation. Can you tell us a little bit about that? This is like the wildest thing that must I mean you have a lot of wild stories, but this is up there for sure gosh menu open and those From many years ago I don't realize sometimes how old I am you know? Unique both man. So basically there wasn't operation and I had access to five suicide bombers, potential suicide bombers, and you their location, and it was a trick that I played on them. Somehow just suspend their operation for about forty eight hours and they somehow listen to me. Somehow. Put them in a safe house and the Israeli prime. Minister decided within thirty minutes to bomb than tire building and just kill everybody. I did not want to be participate or assassinations because my mother was not revenge. So I, told my hand listen I don't want them that. But he said if you don't want them dead, they would mention your name. You're not the interrogation and truly like assassinating them is the best way the kid go couple. If they mention your name, you're done because you have to go to prison for a long period of time and we cannot put you in prison for a long period of time, and if you don't go to present, how can you explain? This to your parents and to the other movement, they would know that you are the one who give them permission. So this is why it was very difficult and they had to orchestrate one of the biggest place you know to get me out of the situation but also respect my might quest that I don't want them to be kicked. They were just by the way nineteen to twenty one year old young. Teenagers Basically didn't know what they were doing. So they decided to arrest them instead of assassinating and what they were afraid of have. One of them do during the interrogation in the first couple of days in the he mentioned my name that I was the one who help them and give them the house and give them the gun, which was you know, basically one of the tricks that I use to get into their world, you gave them guns that was the trick. It's funny I, give them a handgun, an DACA car full of explosives under. To good trade I duNNo. Chris Trade because on one hand I told them you come up move around in the city full of intelligence services full of army. Photo. Id F- Palestinian Authority. With, a car stoning car for explosives. So I made it about their safety and emitted about the plan and what's right thing to do with other them listen I keep the car. Put it in the same place. And hit US my my gut. So I just hand them my have gone and say you just use this in case you need something to defend yourself. You need a gun you don't like car for explosives and they can like the idea and now I kept him on the leash because if they go with the car, they might find someone else to. Help them or to just decide suddenly to just blow it up and it's all just about it in the news by the have their exclusive, they have to come back to them, and this is how we got in trouble at a phone call from a Hitler and say you know we have we have a situation and you need to go under the ground. Like. Right away. I was like what's going on? He said they mentioned your name and he said we prevent them from visiting an attorney or any family member or anybody. So the people don't know that your name has been mention this what usually prisoners do if they mentioned some member of the movement name during interrogation, they were the lawyer that we mentioned. The name of this activist. So the lawyer would go to their family and say, Hey, your son's name has been mentioned it just a matter of time before they are arrested so that they don't want mass or the outside world to know that my name was mentioned for saying they deported one of them, which was a Jordanian national back to Jordan, in media. This time of terrorists potential suicide bomber with explosives on them would spend up district fifteen years in Israeli prison. So now they send one of them immediately, but the Jordan deported not trial nothing. So his sprints will like immediately how come his just three two days later you know back with his family and and the kid was just celebrating with his family and the not knowing the trump that is head. So everybody in his own group so that he was a trade. So that was the first. But that's not enough that we framed someone else the second one. Basically, we totally frame an innocent, but the second step was to make me into a want that. So I could not go to present at the time because I was part of so many operations and the relationships that we worked so hard to establish them with other terrorists with other groups with other dangerous people to put me in prison. This means that we will lose all the leads that we have established over two years or so. So I had to be still in the field the. Said, the best way is to make you the person, but we they wanted that to be as real as it can get. So again as I told, you only had for people in the Israeli intelligence knew about my existence. So the army special forces in something similar to the Navy seals in nets didn't know about my existence. So now those people have to add like they're going after an enemy so. Diligence, give their own army special forces the most wanted man's whereabouts. In that kiss me we want him alive or dead. Should him don't has? You know he's a very dangerous man is affiliated with suicide bombers and that's like the truth that they wanted the army to know. So when the army came in, they come with first of all undercover agents, fifty of them or more all dressed like civilian Palestinians incivility in the cars. Palestinian. Plates surrounded the area before they got the okay to attack the house where I was supposed to be my family's house I, got thirty seconds to get out of the house and make it look like unscathed. So I got out the house. The special forces on the ground, the green light from the intelligence that I am inside the house still. So special this come about five minutes out of that circle. There were like punch. Of Macabre tax you know the Merkava tank is like I think. Forty or fifty tons of steel, and when this thing turns on the engine is much higher than aeroplanes engine and when you have ten of them storming into the city, it's like an earthquake happening. So those what about like five minutes away and they start driving towards the sickest center to my family's house. So it's like all this orchestration it become like a war zone. Right now. Yeah. So my family right now is up in the fire, my family inside the house, and of course, my handlers said, don't worry will do everything within our ability that you know your family wouldn't be hurt by we want this to be real likely wants you to look like a real wanted otherwise Hamas. Wakil you became into the house in the speakers they. Called for my name and of course, I'm not house but the special forces have a reliable and diligence that I'm inside the house. They don't know that they're also manipulated by their own intelligence. So when I don't certain the they evacuate my family I then they get the green light from my handlers to shoot the house you know they'll launch a missile into the House and they spray bullets all over the world like in my room ahead about like Hundred fifty bullets just end the war and the militia groups right now they start gathering and surrounding special forces creating like another ring of fire and shooting the forces and the forces should him back this brought the choppers. It became a war zone. Everybody in the city knew. That that Matt did men. And my father the Hamas leadership. Even the suicide bombers that I was helping everybody knew that I was in a deep trouble and Israel is not tolerating and that gave me actually a very good cover in the city but I had to act like a wanted met. I could not just become a wanted man and just leave on life. So I had to actually become on So Hamas was actually my father was afraid for my life and through his. Connections with the movement he arranged with mass people to give me some of their safe houses and hang out with other wanted people that we were looking for for a long time. So I ended up hanging out a or the safe houses and knowing the locations of the most wanted people as we wanted, and this is how we cracked down the entire Hamas admitted that a wing in the West. Bank responsible for ninety percent of the suicide bombing. That's the second but Intifada. So that was the place. Wow Wow. That's a dangerous play though, right like you're almost getting a missile shot at you are at least almost hit you did get shot at you. There's bullets all over the place, but then you get this street credit is like a bad ass terrorist and then they're schlepping you around to all of the safehouses to. hobnob with all the most wanted I mean it's absolutely wild I. Wonder If. You're already disillusioned with Hamas. But there's this one instance in the book or one incident in the book were it really looks like things went south. Hamas. Blew up a bunch of their own people at a rally and then blamed Israel. It was just they were showing off with like a rocket launcher or something like that. What happened there I mean this whole thing is just such a cluster. Mass other theaters, the movements Palestinian movements Palestinian senior leadership. Throughout this conflict, they never take responsibility for annual directions. They want Israel to be responsible for all the problem in the mid eighties, and this is to have a common external enemy that you export. Your internal crisis on has been the method. This is the mcinnis, and this is how they have survived so. How much people use the guzzlers should bring as him and? Then they blamed their blood on Israel when they had an incident where their own explosives blow up and kill. People. Of course, they couldn't be braves and. In awe say we did they wanted Israel to take responsibility for it but how can we expect from such a dark organization? Without morality and it's beyond just nationalism insists like, okay. You know many people in the united that state special like you know my friends in the liberal camp also they want justice for Palestinians and. Defined Palestine defined Pakistani. You know there's no such thing. You don't go to talking about dozens of rival Cardi's you know layer upon layer all starkness of confusion of ignorance, and you know who was crushed in between the children and all the Palestinian factions with exception religious or secular conservative or a liberal all of them put nationalism ahead of the sugar, and as long as they're thinking this way it, they should be held accountable. This should be counted by any means and this is what Thomas is doing. You know we cannot say okay but. No the sugar enough are helpless Hamas store missiles at schools at hospitals at mosques and lunch rallies in a with their homemade's kitchen mid missiles amongst thousands, hundreds of thousands of civilians. What's that? And when the mistake happens, there are still blame is read that was. Really taken it too far just man up for one time in your study. You know just take responsibility and say it was as but they come out. Come Out I know you ended up leaving the Shin Beth the Israeli intelligence service what happened? When was enough enough? You just decided one day? Hey, look I've had it with this crap I mean how did that thought process come about as bill do this world of intelligence the -ception also is not an easy world anybody whether he worked for. CIA for. KGB Fora, whatever it is. It's a better dangerous world. They couldn't intelligence world and the Yes. There is intelligence to it by human intelligence than the other day and I think intelligent people. Eventually when find the hiring decisions on hiring digits leave get out but when you try to out. They have something to lose because if you still an asset is still has. Juice new they. WanNa squeeze you. Drop excuse me for the expression but this they want to do I wanted to be the person I wanted to be, and that was not possible by just living a secret life with money secret identities and so many masks and holds and all that, and this is when I felt the necessity you know for me to get out because honestly I cannot stop him madden's I cannot go in the head of every Palestinian or terrorists and make them see the truth that I see. I come up if I see the true I needed to work I needed to transform any actually emancipate myself from all the things that had witnessed from all the experiences that they had and. The that acquires moderator that requires honesty that acquires to be truthful to. Many people of course you know they told me widened you just like talk more about your adventure about the life you save money him alive at then like what's the point you know if you save so many human lives on units yourself in the process you know in the first, we need to be able to actually help ourselves. You know then we can help others even if you had an impact only on one person, we already have contributed a great deal towards humanity towards consciousness. Tell me about the last conversation you had with your father when you told him about working for Israel. I wanted him to hear from me on again. In my silence in San Diego California back in two thousand, seven, two, thousand, eight, I decided that I wanted to document my journey. At that time, I didn't know that I could write a book I didn't know that you could actually profit from a book. Or A, you could make money from which many people know accused of creating a controversy in the sick profit for me it was like I have to document this story. In case, an accident happens to me kiss at dye is I get assassinated the other? No maybe the Israelis come after me I have lots of good government and state secrets may be terrorist groups would come after me maybe just simply an accident will happen. You know and I don't want all this experience to just the go in the van. I wanted to be documented somehow you know for maybe the next generation three. Didn't think it would be published but I wanted my father to hear from me from my mouth. You know not from my book not from others and I wanted him to know the true. So I told him I told them I didn't know how I manage accident than him. You know just crazy you know and what a shock in Iowa right was his or the sun I was his friend and most trusted person that he had in his circle I basically a betrayed. Betrayed him in order to save him. There was no way around it. You know there was no around and save him from himself. He would have had been assassinated a hundred times nettle on his friends at the same level of the organization all of them are gone all of them are awesome it. None of them survived it. The Israeli politicians wanted him did and the army wanted him did the only thing? That was stopping him from dying. Was Me whether he knows it or not? Whether he will recognize it avant it really doesn't matter for me. He was my father and I, did not want him to die. I wanted him to know on the one hand I betrayed you. But on the other hand, I saved you and this, what makes it very, very hard for him in fact, this is what makes it very hard for the Palestinian people. First of all, I wasn't against the Palestinian people. Against the. People I'm against stupid ideas and the national ambitions and the sick beliefs I'm against all that and I have no regrets to go against it and the I wanted to turn personality on that happens and a few months later in the game altitude more details in in things happen wasn't a disappointment for him. You know. But the truth is by the way a given the option to this only because I understood even though he's a great leader, the society if he keep giving me cover in that culture would be participating. So I thought this on. He told me this is not an option. told. Make you would always be my son? No matter what your artem. You're my liver, your my you're my heart. You're my soul, your everything icon on. The Eve of publishing the book I headed from the News, his statement he made a statement that the disowned me from his prison. So this gives you another idea you know like where his heart is an where his mind is. The vast ocean in between. But our greed, our political ambitions continues to divide us if it was able to divide my father and me and we really loved each other you know and I am sure that we still do you know love each other on the the bond between cannot be broken but still for the public image, you know he has gone the public. This is not my son anymore I don't know him. You know kill him if you want how could you say that and if you we're forced to say this, what does that tell you about the nature of this entire conflict? You know what about unity what about love? What about understanding whenever there be peace in the mid eighties of what happens you know for a father son relationship Musab so much this has been really an amazing conversation. You're really open forthright and I'm I'm. Glad we're friends I have one final question for you though they blasted Leonard Cohen all the time very loud when you were in prison. Now you tell me your favorite artists was Leonard Cohen. How is that possible? You were twenty four, seven Leonard Cohen blasting in prison they're torturing you. Now you listen to it in your car while you're driving around I don't understand this of all the things you've told me this is the hardest for me to get through my head. Many friends criticize me and I was like, okay, very depressing. To listen to. His actually but because you know how he was introduced to me as like his. Voice and allowed speakers I was sitting on a small chair in being tortured in Muskogee. This is like the had house in West Jerusalem and Linda playing again, and again again for Sweet Manhattan than we did but. You know but I had no idea what he was saying you know because I did not understand English at that time in the I didn't even the WHO was the artist. So after it was released from prison, I kept looking in on it could not find how would end up in the WHO who to ask. You know I'm not gonNA go back like. As they go what was the torture song that we were listening to? Our city. And one day I was listening to the radio and the Leonard Cohen's. Song came up and start shouting out loud like anybody knows who the singer is the singer who is the singer? A friend of mine mention is a learn Gordon. Coin Okay and I took the name down I was afraid that I would forget it and they go and buy all his work trying to find that song, and this is how I got introduced to airliners going. You think you would have been staying away from that music, but I guess if you've got an issue a mental itch, you gotta scratch it, right? Yes. Absolutely. Absolute- Massad. Thank you once again, man this has been really really an interesting conversation again being so open thanks for taking the time I know you're in the middle of nowhere and you know it was hard to track you down but again, I'm glad we're friends now and I'm glad I got this story on tape. Thank you Jordan I really appreciate it. Thank you very much and best of luck. Some. Thoughts on this episode. But before we get into that, here's a preview of my conversation with Dr Matthew. Walker one of the top experts on sleep we're talking about why we dream what happens when we sleep why chronic lack of sleep and driving while tired is more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol. This is one of our most popular episode when it aired and I think you're gonNA love it. If you haven't heard it already here's a quick listen. Sleep is not an optional lifestyle look Sri Sleep is non-negotiable. Biological Necessity. Sleep is a life support system. It is mother. Nature's best effort yet at immortality. And the decimation of sleep throughout industrialized nations is now having a catastrophic impact on our health or wellness as well as the safety in the education of our children. It is silent sleepless epidemic an I contend that it is fast becoming the greatest public health challenge that we now face in the twenty first century. The evidence is very clear that when we delay school start times. Grades Increase behavioral problems, decrease truancy rates, decrease psychological and psychiatric issues decrease. But what we also found, which we didn't expect in this that he's is the life expectancy of students increased. So, if our goal as educators truly is to educate and not risk lives in the process that we are failing our children in the most spectacular manner with this incessant model of early school start times I'm by the way seven thirty am for a teenager is the equivalent for an adult waking up, but four thirty or three thirty in the morning if you're trying to survive or regular getting five hours of sleep, all s you have sixty five percent risk of dying at any moment in time. When you wake up the next day, you have a revised mind wide web of associations and you associated network a rebooted Ios that his capable of defining remarkable insights into previously impenetrable problems. Anita's the reason that you have never been told to stay awake on a problem. It's that you're told to. Sleep on a problem. For more on sleep including why we dream and how we can increase the quality of our sleep checkout episode one twenty-six with Doctor Matthew Walker here on the Jordan Harbinger show. Thanks to south coming on the show. This is a tough one for him to do and just so many ways just the memories are tough. The logistics were tough but time commitment was tough I really thank him for coming and helping here today Israeli soldiers came to his house when he was a kid to talk to his dad for five minutes but he was gone for years at a time is so. Unfair. So terrible for a kid and when his dad was in prison, his uncle's wouldn't help financially he had to sell pastries to construction workers that his mom made and then his uncle's made him go home and stop doing that because it brought shame on the family. So this is a kid that has had a rough life rough upbringing just from the get go he does have some really interesting stories in. The book and the movie as well. He told me offline about a story when he was in prison himself that there's a TV in there and you have to hold the rope that slams aboard over the TV when women without headscarves are on the TV. So basically more than half the TV shows commercials everything they slam this board over the television. So the guys in his prison who are hardcore Islamic A. Lot of the time, don't see a woman that a head scarf and of course, the way he tells it has a lot of humor to it. He told me also how the Hamas leaders communicate in prison they take bread they wadded up and they jam messages into these bread balls and throw them over the fence because the prison is divided into different for security reasons and to keep information compartmentalized among other reasons. I can vouch for this that entity run. So high between Israelis and Palestinians was at a restaurant in Egypt's in popular location. For Israelis to go on vacation this is about twenty years ago. Now, before the second uprising, the waiter came to our table and said that he was sorry, he made us wait but he wanted to fight go buy some medicine to put in the food of the Israelis at the table behind us something that would make them sick. So we immediately got up and we warned them and the waiter got so pissed at us, he chased US outside the Israelis were a couple. And the guy was kind of soldier and he also spoke Arabic and just de escalated the whole situation it was scary but I just couldn't let a couple on vacation get poisoned at the table next to us I don't know maybe I'm the Weirdo also the bombings that Musab had talked about that are in the book that are in the movie French. Hill I used to live on the French Hill. That bombing was where I live the dolphinarium was a club I went to multiple times with friends so I could have been there he re university cafeteria bombed that I mentioned during the show was right Next to the counter where I used to sit every single day. So this is just very close to home for me as well, and some of you are inevitably going to ask why is he called the green prints? This was his Israeli security code-named. Bet Is the name of that service. They call him the green prints, of course, because green the colors of Hamas and the prince because he is the son of the leader. So it's pretty obvious I kind of hope that wasn't actually his codename documents because it seems so obvious that you could put that together and find out who that actually was we. Didn't really get into why he left an how. But for those curious he was getting sick with the fighting and the factions and the bickering over the dead and who belonged to which faction and also, Saddam? Hussein when he was still around paid thirty five million dollars to encourage people to become suicide bombers he just got tired of the corruption tired of violence and he decided to escape. He originally wasn't even going to be allowed to leave but Israel let him leave to Europe he fled to the United States ended up getting deported. Thanks to the security services trying to poison his asylum application and now. He lives in an undisclosed location, but we have a lot to be thankful for with Musab helped capture Hamas leader that was responsible for upwards of eighty deaths. He foiled a lot of terrorist plots inside and outside of Israel and I'm telling you Musab, story is even crazier if you're interested, the book is good will link it in the show notes the movie is even more insane and covers a lot that's not in the book willing to that in the show notes as well. If you like spy stories if you're interested in this kind of terrorism stuff, this is at the top of the heap in. Many many ways, and again I'm very thankful to my friend Musab Hassan for coming on the show here today. But this was a very long in the making people you have no idea. The things I do for you link to everything in the show notes worksheets in the show notes transcripts in the show notes there's a video of this interview going up on our Youtube Channel. You can find our Youtube Channel at Jordan Harbinger Dot, com slash YouTube. Let me know you think of this one I worked a lot on this one. This was a huge pain in the butt I would never do this for. Any show, but I had to get the story out there. No one else has an at Jordan harbinger on both twitter and instagram. You can also hit me on Lincoln. Now I'm teaching you to connect with great people and manage relationships, using systems, using tiny habits using some stuff from some of those espionage and spy networks that had been hanging around lately that stuff is all in the six minute networking course, which is free over at Jordan Harbinger, dot com slash course, dig the well before you get thirsty people. This show is created in association with podcast one, and of course, my amazing team. That's JEN. Harbinger Jason Anderson Robert Fogerty in Baird Milly Ocampo Josh Ballard and Gabriel Mizrahi remember we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting if you know someone interested in these types of stories or you think this is just GonNa while them definitely share this episode with them. Hopefully, you find something great in every episode of the show please share the show with those you care about in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time. Don't miss the court jumped. He podcast with Jillian July. It's more accurate that she had a problem with me rather than having a problem with him. Join Jillian. She goes beyond the courtroom and sheds light on the injustices of judicial system in September. When you went to the Walmart and choir the night and the ZIP ties number ZIP ties, he said he never filed a complaint about Dominquez. The did their shooting him subscribed to court junkie on Apple PODCASTS, spotify or any of your favorite podcast apps. Support for this podcast and the following message come from. An opportunity, a podcast for Morgan Stanley. We've been an entrepreneurs have colored traditionally have a hard time accessing capital. 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Hamas Israel United States Jordan Harbinger Musab Hassan Green Prince army earthquake Palestinian Authority Musab al-Qaeda Reno Sheen Palestine publisher
Israel: Democracy or Apartheid?

Deconstructed with Mehdi Hasan

28:46 min | 1 year ago

Israel: Democracy or Apartheid?

"This is an Israeli society were all parties benefit from describing who will punish and who will subjugate and who will oppress Palestinians the most and the most harshly welcome to deconstructed. I mattie Eddie Hudson Lindsey Graham wants compared picking between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz to having to choose between being poisoned being shot. I wonder if Palestinians feel that way this week off to the latest Israeli election results which could see racist warmonger Benjamin Netanyahu replaced by yet another racist warmonger opposition in leader General Benny gaps the differences that they have in terms of policy towards Palestinians are absolutely non existent. That's my guest today. The Palestinian Palestinian American lawyer author and activist Nura Erakat the big question. I want to ask her is regardless of all these nonstop elections. Israel an an apartheid state is Benjamin Netanyahu Israel's longest serving prime minister and proud unabashed racist on his way out of office at this moment in time as I'm speaking to you. It does seem to look that way. Israel is on edge this morning as results come in showing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and this opponent deadlock several early exit polls suggest Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's reelection bid my fall short Israel's longest serving prime minister might might end up being replaced by political. You come on Tuesday. Israel held its second election in less than six months. It's fourth election in just six years. These rarely seemed to have gotten into the habit of going to the polls a lot and they often of course pat themselves on the back for being the only democracy in the region as Tunisia and Lebanon. Just don't exist. I am more crucially and more offensively as if the Palestinians in the occupied territories don't exist remember six and a half million Jewish Israelis rallies have the right to vote in Israeli elections that includes six hundred thousand Jewish settlers living illegally in settlements across the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem in addition to those six and a half million Jewish Israelis one and a half million Palestinian citizens of Israel living in Israel proper are able to vote to but five eight million Palestinians living in the West Bank east Jerusalem and Gaza in territories occupied and colonized by these rallies for more than fifty years now a not allowed to a vote in Israeli elections five million which means that less than a quarter of the Palestinian who live in that disputed part of the world who live between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea whether in Israel proper or the occupied territories whose everyday lives are controlled by Israel and have been for decades now only a quarter of them have a say over which political party or prime minister controls their lives the vast majority of Palestinians. Don't get a say. Don't get a vote has a word for that. Isn't it asks for the Palestinian citizens of Israel who do get to vote. It's worth pointing out two things number one pretty much every independent study and expert agrees that guest they have the right to vote but there are also treated as second-class citizens and subjected to a raft of discriminatory laws and policies from where they can live to they can marry in fact for the first eighteen years of Israel's existence right up until nineteen sixty sixty six for the first quarter of Israel's existence as a state. Palestinian citizens were forced to live under military rule under martial law a number two. Yes Palestinian parties do take part in Israeli elections and get elected to these early parliament the Knesset in fact this time round. It looks like they've done better than expected and may even be on course for the first time in history to be the main opposition block to any kind of national unity government might be formed between Netanyahu's right-wing Likud party and the supposedly centrist blue and white opposition party but Palestinian parties or lawmakers have never been asked to join any you one of the numerous Israeli coalition governments that have been formed in that country in recent decades national unity doesn't include Palestinian teams in fact this is what Netanyahu said in his non concession speech on Tuesday night garments that relies relies on the Arab parties should note parties than negate the very existence of the state of Israel. They you have it from the Horse's mouth from Israel's longest serving prime minister. They can't be a government that relies on Arab parties. There's a word for that isn't it even outside of the occupied territories therefore even inside the so-called. Green Line there there has always been for Israel a massive tension between being Jewish and being democratic even though progressives and liberals here in the United States have turned it convenient convenient blind eye to that tension the reality. Is that the phrase Israeli democracy should always be used inside of quote marks or at least with a question mark at the end of it but here's the question I want to try and get to the bottom of today and it's an important and deeply contentious one. If Israel is not a western style liberal democracy aw crecy with equality for all what is it then. Is it an apartheid state. A So many of its critics maintain or is it merely guilty of engaging in apartheid it practices in the occupied territories alone and if apartheid is what's going on over there is state sponsored racism and discrimination is the norm regardless list of which party or Prime Minister is in office where does that leave the US Israeli alliance which is supposed to be built on shed values they say where does that leave leading. Democrats Democrats who rail against racism and inequality at home but seemed to be giving it a pass in the Holy Land and I'm joined to discuss all this by someone who knows this subject inside out and as the saying goes has skin in the game nor Erica is a Palestinian American lawyer academic academic activist and author of the acclaimed New Book Justice for some law and the question of Palestine Nora. Thanks for joining me on deconstructed. Hi Nancy. Thanks for having me first off before we get into some of the deeper thorniest stuff. What is your reaction to these latest. Israeli parliamentary election Shen results and this talk of a national unity government between Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud and the blue and white opposition party of his chief rival retired army general Benny can't gump's. I think it's really interesting for most people watching this. This this was even framed is centre-left versus center right for anybody paying of any kind of attention. They're basically both in the right and the distinctions between them are minimal. The Likud is the right wing party that has religious blue and white is is the right wing party that is secular the differences that they have in terms of policy towards Palestinians are absolutely non-existent in so far as Netanyahu wants to annex the Jordan Valley. The Blue and white party explain that that was their idea. I in Netanyahu stole it from them. In a spar are concerned concerned about settlements neither of them. It didn't even come up the agenda never came up even in any of their campaigning as the core issue which demonstrates that Palestinians as far as Israelis are concerned are out of sight out of mind and there is no cost to their neglect and there is no cost to their ongoing subjugation so the difference between them is really nominal except for what it means as far as optics and the way that Israel wants to identify itself as a liberal settler democracy. I remember what Jesse Jackson used to say in the nineteen eighties about we only have we only have one party in this country not to Republicans and Republican Republican light. It's very familiar refrain when you look at Israeli politics and you mentioned the annexation I mean that was a fascinating moment in election campaign. We're Benjamin Netanyahu says I'm going to annex Dourdan Valley and the response from the quote unquote opposition is that's plagiarism you come down from us. Not The illegal immoral or will end any kind of so-called so called peace process. Isn't that also ironic that on the day of these rarely election on Tuesday in the Netherlands a Dutch court held a hearing about whether a war crimes case against Bernie Gant who might be prime minister very soon whether he committed war crimes in Gaza when he was in charge of Israeli forces in two thousand fourteen and whether that case is admissible in court in the Netherlands under universal jurisdiction principles gant has a long history of alleged war crimes Disney. Well almost all of these Israeli generals I mean he was the chief of staff under Netanyahu a WHO and part of his primary campaign tactic was to promise that he would return Gaza the Stone Age. This is an Israeli society were all parties benefit from describing who will punish and who will subjugate and who will oppress Palestinians the most and the most harsh harshly this is what the nature of the campaign looks like so there's nothing to be gained by either party in terms of just thinking pure politics of pivoting away from this racist policy and thinking about a future of ending the occupation or far less about actually changing the nature of Israel's racist apartheid regime that I said to against his alleged war crimes but there's not really anything alleged about him he had. She bragged about them earlier. This year. When they had the first election of twenty nine hundred back in April he actually put a campaign venue headlined parts of Gaza was sent back to the stone. That was the title that he put on his own video with images of rebel and a list of how many people he killed and yet if he becomes prime minister in the coming days or weeks we will have liberals in the West saying. Oh isn't it great. We don't have horrible arable evil violent Netanyahu in judge. We have moderate liberal liberal Bennigan's in charge well on this question. I think what's important. Is that the law itself itself of what is alleged what Israel is doing in the Gaza Strip and what what it has been doing towards. Palestinians is not just might makes right what they have been doing. Systematically is is changing the laws of war in order to make the amount of destruction and death permissible in the language of law that they're exporting to the rest of the world and they do this by expanding the right of force of Israel by shrinking who is categorized as a Palestinian civilian and they're saying that this this all this legal invention is necessary sairy because of the unprecedented nature of its warfare against non-state except that's absolutely false that international community has already contemplated this irregular combat and legislated laws of war to regulate them and the nine hundred seventy seven additional protocols which elevated the rule of guerrilla or non estate combatants two soldiers and two legitimate warfare and so what we're seeing Israel here do is actually create new law to permit this violence ends which is both colonial violence N. legal violence but refracted through a liberal framework and just for those of you listening home newer has written an excellent book is Stephanie. Whether your time called Justice for some law and the question of Palestine. I'm on the election Nura. There's this irony that Benjamin Netanyahu fear mongering about Arabs voting he incited hate against Arabs to the point where facebook recently suspended the Prime Minister of Israel's official facebook page because of its incitement of against Arabs. I think he said on that. The Arabs are coming to annihilate all Palestinian citizens of Israel turned out in big numbers to help defeat him partly because of that the irony well what happened this time is that whereas an e pro because Palestinian Israelis were boycotting the elections they became him a negligible minority that no one was paying attention to because now of the mobilization the rehabilitation of the joint Lewis that reunited in the aftermath of the wait list of Palestinian parties yes the Palestinian parties the four Palestinian parties who reunited in the aftermath of the April election and because of the mobilization on the ground and to to to change this balance of power we actually saw blue and white party and a number of other Israeli parties campaigning in Palestinian cities and Palestinian villages notwithstanding the fact that they promised that they would not change the nation state law that they would not end the occupation occupation that they would not even consider entering into a coalition government with the joint list they still try to lobby for those votes and now now of course if if some of the exit polls and counting to be believed their own calls for an unprecedented fifteen seats in these early capacities rarely parliament they may end up being the official opposition and to a national unity government of Likud and the blue and white party which would be a historic one of the points I made at the start of the show and that I saw you make you on twitter this week. Neuro is that five million Palestinians not voting in this election should tell you everything you need to know about so-called Israeli democracy now supporters. Israel might say why then not citizens of Israel. Why should they have a right to vote. What do you say to them. There's two things to say to them on the one hand. It's not just that Israelis are. I'm not giving Palestinians the right to vote frankly. Palestinians don't care about the right to vote if they had the right to be sovereign and govern themselves but the fact that they are neither given the right to to be sovereign and govern themselves nor the right to participate in elections notwithstanding the fact that the Israeli government whichever government comes on top will govern every aspect of their lives indicates how they are therefore under a regime where they can't represent themselves under any capacity and it's tantamount amount to an apartheid nature for those who say well no that's not true but Palestinians have a president and they did have an election fourteen years ago what President President Mahmoud our best represents a series of non-contiguous bon to stand in the West Bank that are not tantamount to a state that is not tantamount to sovereignty even for him even for best to travel outside of Palestine he requires permission and a permit from Israel which which should tell us again the dimension of the lack of sovereignty and the lack of the right to vote which is a state of limbo that Israel has suspended ended Palestinians in for fifty two years under the occupation and for seventy to seventy years since its establishment so let's talk about the word apartheid it drives some supporters of Israel up the wall. They say it's unfair. It's inaccurate. It's a smear its antisemitic. They say Israelis nothing like Aponte Paul Teich South Africa. Why are they wrong and also as a first step. How do you define apartheid well. I think those those two questions are related. This is not an analogy just as the Holocaust is not necessarily the only definition of genocide. The Jewish Holocaust is not the only definition of genocide South African apart that is not what defines apartheid as a racial structure and regime apartheid was defined in the one thousand nine hundred seventy three convention against apartheid which defined it as a a crime against humanity which enumerated at least six different categories that indicate when a when a state is actually engaging in that that kind of differential treatment based on racial distinction with difference and so in the case of Palestinians if they were indeed indeed in their separate territories living under a military occupation where they simply sought to be free and endured a military occupation it might not be apt but the the fact that Israelis but Israeli civilians live within the West Bank they constitute six hundred thousand settlers approximately approximately twelve percent of the West Bank population who are connected to the interior of Israel proper and who are given all the rights of I I governed by Israeli civil law while the Palestinians who are proximate to them who are literally in live side by side with them as they do for example between his and the four settlements that surround them who are governed by military law this is when we're starting to talk about two laws and then some won't some on mighty some liberal Zionist will say well okay fine a part that exists in the West Bank but you can't say that about Israel except the same conditions exist within Israel except under under a different civil law regime but they have the right to vote defenders of Israel would say look hold on one point five million Palestinians. They vote black. Africans could not vote in apartheid South Africa but having the right to vote isn't what constitutes apart that there are different definitions the fact that there are fifty one laws that will differentiate between Palestinians and Jewish Israelis elise and that will either privileged Jewish Israelis or subjugate the Palestinian citizens is what we should be paying attention to what Israel does that bifurcated Jewish nationality from Israeli Lee citizenship so that if you are a Jewish national and in Israeli citizen you have the full course of rights that will be available to you as is a citizen and national whereas if you're just an Israeli citizen you do not have access to that full panoply of rights that is the primary distinction that make citizenship chip frankly a second class status so even having the right to vote doesn't mean that they have the rights to Jewish nationality which are never going to be available to them. I WANNA WANNA play a clip to you. From a video made Danny Island. WHO's the former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations former Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister. He made this video trying to rebut claims that Israel is an apartheid state just want to play to Arabs serve as judges in our judge even through a Jewish president into jail they share a cadet institutions hospitals who's transportation beaches and all facilities. They live all over the country. They've worn national beauty contests and reality shows on Israeli TV. They're on Israel's as words national sports theme therefore it is not surprising that Frederik de Klerk the South African leader who won a Nobel peace prize for ending the apartheid art. I'd in knows a thing or two about it said such a comparison is audience and unfair. Newer what goes through your mind when you hear Israeli spokespersons make arguments. I think it's crazy that they're citing declared because as an authority of what is and what is not apartheid based on how the minority is being treated. I mean it's one thing to say you are. You're not as evil as us. It's another thing to say that these that the Palestinians are free. Look these are all cosmetic forms of of multi-culturalism and inclusion that are not tantamount to full rights what he's trying to tell us is that because they get to have this nominal inclusion that that somehow negates the structure structure of exclusion that Israel exercises which is reserves the right of Israel to be a Jewish state and if we don't even have to go very far Danny alone should would read Israel's own law the Nation State Law July two thousand eighteen defines Israel as a Jewish state with the right of Jewish self determination all over the state and only Jewish self determination and which makes settlement which makes the creation of settlements AH constitutional obligation respond to that what does inclusion as being a judge or a beauty queen debunk south determination much rather talk about reality show when his Yousef Mnaya Anaya the executive director of the US campaign for Palestinian rights who you and I both know he's been a guest on this show. He tweeted this week quote. If Netanyahu is done and that is a big if it will be very interesting to watch how liberal Zionists will continue to defend the status quo without Netanyahu to hide behind. He's right isn't he for a lot of US liberals by the Jewish Sean non-jewish. It's been easy to say that Israel's descend into liberalism into far right nationalism. It's all the fault of Netanyahu and Likud yeah. I mean this is this is definitely a way to assuage liberal guilt because Netanyahu is not is not the problem right now this Israel what he represents is not the right but he's actually is rarely policy of settlement and expansion the fact that neither party no party no party had a platform on what what about Palestinians who are living under occupation what about the siege on Gaza what about the lack of equality of Palestinian citizens of Israel the fact that nobody nobody is talking about tells us what we need to know about Israel Netanyahu can go away but we're still going to be faced with this problem with the Liberals Zionist will have is the ability to tell themselves. Oh but now we can do better whereas Netanyahu was unable to habilitated himself but let the empirical evidence Stanford itself blue and white has already said they want to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age and that annexation was their idea so we need to stop living in a fantasy land of trying to hold onto a dream and actually deal with the empirical evidence and the truth is is that because there is no cost financial financial economic moral or otherwise to Israel and Israelis. There's just no imperative to be thinking about Palestinians which makes imperative upon us to create that cost and to create the incentive through boycott divestment and sanctions and come back to that in one moment just on the point you made you. You're very right. Took my empirical evidence people forget that it was you know one of the fastest rates of settlement growth happened on the watch of Ehud Barak supposedly on the left they'll destruction of Lebanon on the watch of Yitzhak Rabin and who'd almond supposedly on the left in the center. It's easy to always on the right if you're a US liberal interested me what Netanyahu has done. That's been useful if you agree with this view for all these odious nece and his repressive rule he has actually been a PR disaster for Israel the for the state of Israel as a whole regardless of where you on the Israeli political spectrum because for years these ratings were able to say the occupation in his temporary. There's a two-state solution around the corner. The peace process goes on Netanyahu comes along and says nope no Palestinians on my watch. I'm going to annex parts of the West spank so the occupation is temporary. It's permanent and if it's permanent then it's definitely apartheid. I think what people have to deal with is the fact that Lieber number number Labor might have at some point been opposed to the permanence of civilian settlements as a matter of religious mandate and are not attached the territory's for its religious significance in terms of defining it as day and Samaria and part of a Greater Israel but leaper is just as committed to ensuring that there is no Palestinian state and when you're referring to labor versus Likud in Israel I can't help but think it mirrors very clearly the discussion in the US between Democrats and the Republicans when it comes to Israel an unlimited two which are the party will go to really take a stand what do you make of the US political scene right now a year out from the presidential election vis-a-vis the Palestinians all you you optimistic because you have presidential candidates like Bernie Sanders for the first time saying they're willing to make. US aid to Israel conditional uncertain human rights issues. You have even someone repeat. Buddha judge very pro Israeli saying he would not allow his presidency to fund the annexation of any part of the West Bank Elizabeth Warren and better a raw calling Netanyahu a racist. I've I've never had a leading. US politicians called Prime Minister of Israel the races you have two members of Congress Ilhan Omar Rashid Al Talib openly backing the BCS movement the Boycott Sanctions Shins and divestment movement is turning point in American politics or is it too soon to know. I absolutely think that what we're seeing in American politics and certainly in American can rhetoric in an American media is a sea change to where we were on this question where it was at a comp- it's still taboo and they're still risking breaking it but not in the way that it was formidable in the past that said it doesn't represent or mirror at all the situation on the ground in Palestine which is deteriorating whoa day by day at an exponential rate so yes there has been changed within the American scene which I'm actually really grateful for even for the fact that Israel is going to be a two thousand twenty issue. We can't say passing struggle for freedom. That's not how they define it. It's really about Israel right. We're always in the shadow of Israel but that Israel will even be subject to whoever debate represents a movement victory of the sacrifices that grassroots activists have been making for decades in the United States so I'm hoping that this this is the beginning of a much more honest conversation where Palestine is part of a much larger and broader framework in the Middle East and the lives lives of millions of people who have become expendable in the eyes of most Americans because we become so desensitized the numbers of death and destruction there as a result of endless wars and neural last question as someone who is Palestinian American who assumes speaks regularly to Palestinian Alestinian family members and friends back in Israel in the occupied territories. How do you stay optimistic in these times one. We have no choice. The only other choice voice is to surrender and give up. No humans have done that but number. Two is one of the primary and people ask me this question. My primary sources of hope is to look at the the two million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip who have now participated in the seventy third consecutive week of the Gaza march of return of marching to this militarized perimeter where they are held in an open air prison at the shore risk of being shot to be killed where nobody is paying attention to them and and yet they have remained resilient obstinate consistent and have meet the demands have been clear which is an end to the siege the right to return and their freedom if Palestinians in Gaza who are living under these dire conditions are not willing to give up and are and are moving through a politics. It's of hope I am a new place a nucleus and no right to say that I'm going to be cynical and give up. Eric will have to leave it there. Thanks so much for joining me on deconstructed thank you for having me that was newer. Erica Palestinian American lawyer academic activist and author of the Excellent Flint New Book Justice for some law and the question of Palestine. She thinks this might be a turning point in American politics and the Israel Palestine will be an issue in the the twenty twenty presidential election next year. I hope she's right. Bernie Sanders for one has taken a more radical and actually progressive position on Palestine in any presidential candidate in my lifetime. The problem is how many people know about it are aware of his position on this issue or other candidates positions on this issue at the last presidential debate. The Israel Palestine conflict didn't get a look didn't mention it all over three hours we you and I need to make some noise going forward about the importance of this conflict why it matters and why the United States is complicit in the ongoing subjugation and occupation patient of the Palestinian people. That's on us and yes. We need to use the word apartheid. That's our show deconstructed as a production of first look media media and intercept our producer. Zach young the show was mixed by Brian Pugh. Leautaud is our executive producer. Alfie music was composed by warshaw betsy. Not Read is the intercepts editor in chief and I marry hustle you can follow me on twitter at the the Hudson. If you haven't already please do subscribe to the show you can hear every week. Go to the intercept dot com forward slash deconstructed to subscribe from your podcast platform of choice iphone android. Whatever if you're subscribed already please do leave a rating or review it helps new people find the show if you want to give us feedback emails at podcasts at the Dot Com. Thanks so much see you next week.

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Conspiracy theories: from obscurity to mainstream

Monocle 24: The Foreign Desk

27:59 min | 2 years ago

Conspiracy theories: from obscurity to mainstream

"In nineteen sixty four Harper's magazine published an essay by the historian, Richard Haass starter entitled the paranoid style in American politics. Hush. Dada was struck by how much political discourse in the US nation. Founded on enlightenment principles of reason. And inquiry was not put to find point on it deranged obsessed with invented enemies fearful of nonexistent plots by imaginary malign forces conniving in the shadows of starter wrote. I call it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately evokes the sense of heated exaggeration suspicious nece and conspiratorial fantasy that I have in mind, he worried about how much political leverage can be got out of the animosity and passions of a small minority. Hauch? Dada. A reasonable man would have been appalled by how right? He has been proved so how and why has the conspiracy theory all mainstream? How did we reach a point at which millions of citizens of advanced democracies? Access to all humankind learning on devices in their pockets, a casting their votes on the basis of obvious nonsense. Or is that just what we trees in the shoals of the liberal media released want you to think this is the foreign desk. There's some evidence that a very very basic cognitive tendency to try to find order meaning is associated with people's likelihood of adopting conspiracy theory. So you can kind of extrapolate that to society is a whole wanting to explain the world as a whole, but it can be boiled down to a very basic committed process. People trying to for your why isn't he giving birth certificate? It's not a birth certificate. I know that there's going to be a segment of people for which no matter what we put out. This issue will not be put to rest we got better stuff to do. It's nothing to do with Israel Palestine. It's the fact that the twin with exactly the kind of that made not his and rise unaided guy sheep's eleven people in Pittsburgh. You know, it's the same stuff. The idea that Jews in these bows, and they control the will to the different source of racism, this racism, mashed up with conspiratorial. Hello and welcome to the foreign desk. I'm Andrew Muller. Our first guest is the journalist author and filmmaker Jon Ronson John has been chronicling conspiracy theorists since before they became fashionable most notably in his two thousand one book them adventures with extremists. Is there? A single good reason, you can think of as to why and how and indeed win these ideas became mainstream. Well, I think they were source of becoming mainstream in extremist circles around the time that I started covering flat mid nineties before the bid ninety as opposite was had pockets of conspiratorial belief fly in UFO's and JFK, and and so on but became much more sort of entrenched in political extremism in the nineties and then nine eleven happened, and it became more mainstream. But but still cut a niece lot. Most people though, the man eleven truth is would malevolent so they didn't sort of gain currency daddy really begun to gain currency with the rise of Trump. Tom ministers. I can remember. And I think what happened was a couple of things I think I it just so happens that a kind of Alex Jones day the counter person, you would find a new audience Alex Jones, David ice shows decided to stand for president. So that had an awful lot to do with it. Like he was. What are those people who believed that stuff? I think the other thing that happened. He could argue am I say this completely objectively without any kind of ideological token in the fights. I think the other thing that happened was says in sectors of the American population can't feel left out of the argument. You know, the left Neider decision to not be interested in the white working class as and I think that didn't help because I think they felt sort of marginalized by a powerful elites set up didn't help. So I guess those two things cut coupled coupled with the factor on leaders, do sometimes behaving conspiratorial ways, somebody could fit the argument the Iraq war was powerful elites making decisions at the people didn't want. So I guess those three things probably happened to make conspiracy theories mainstream. I think that makes a reasonable amount of sense. And I guess there's also the question of the the medium rather than the message de think any of this could have happened to certainly to the extent it has without social media acting as an accelerated, obviously as you correctly point out conspiracy theories are our resolve as time, but has it taken modern communications technology to to. Make them as politically effective as they've become. I agree that something that you need to today question. I mean nine eleven conspiracy theories and wouldn't have had the Cohn c- that they had had an opening for the internet, and that was pre social media. So social media came along not only could things proliferates. You don't have much greater rate. But also social media's designed to put people into echo chambers. I'm so you find go done back. You find a group of like minded PayPal omitted, not double your beliefs which had Samed name a few years ago subleasing completely mainstream because she found a whole bunch of other people feel the same way to get your sense talking to conspiracy theorist at the time and indeed your sense of them since that, they actually genuinely believe any of this stuff though. Or is it just stuff, you know, you're kind of supposed to say and her DEA too because those apart of the role. Rules of that in group of that bubble or echo chamber. If you like, I think most of them genuinely believe that full accent, a number of reasons, I mean, some would be mental health reasons, I think, you know, this some kind of. Some this certain psychotic illnesses. Kind of need food pattern and order seem really important. So the certain mental illnesses were people are desperate looking for patents. So I think that propane to begin has to do with it. I think nothing says I'm actually has something to do with it as well because you have come to believe in the last couple of years that when the truth undermines analysis the truth becomes necessary enemy. So I think I've got pob half to the reason why people like Alex Jones, Donald Trump, you know, vegetables, conspiratorial place, the other thing, I would say, you know, is don't don't blame the conspiracy theorists. Completely menial leaders do acting conspiratorial ways from time to time. I think it was a mistake for the Democratic Party to make the kind of active decision to neglect a subset of the population. That's going to make people feel disenfranchised and reach say soften it all of that stuff too. Is it your sense that conspiracy theory again in that period that you've been writing about it has mutated or or revolved if that's if that's the word because the the central tenant underpinning, the book them when you collected your research into conspiracy theorist was this this idea of trying to find the room, which was the room in which these people were convinced these secret rulers of the world gathered to nefarious plot against us. Is it your sense that modern conspiracy theory does still subscribe to anything as as self contained incoherent as the the Bilderberg group all the Rothschild secretly ruling the world, or or has it become something, I guess crazier and more innocuous than that? I slightly simplifies the whole kind of, you know, luminosity conspiracy world to be able to Burg and he mean grove in my book van because I kind of wanted a good play narrative kind of adventure story. What I mean is that I I spent I sort of heard all these luminosity conspiracy theories and ask people to be more specific. And then they talks about the Bilderberg group. And then suddenly had something I could do it was like going to search to try on finds the Bilderberg group. So I cut a slightly simplified things in that book. But I would say I I don't think conspiracy theories if any changed at all over the years, which is part of the reason why so frustrated I think you know, sort of Kuban supposed on qui- realize why Jews sometimes get annoyed about this. Because when you look, at instance that mural that is anti semitic conspiratorial iconography that goes. Oh, right back to Russia until the Nazis, and so, you know, an unused seventy head to the labor party for some years. But using to criticize this Linda when Jews get upset about that. That's the reason why it's like it's nothing to do with Israel and Palestine institute, the factor might spectator is a kind of non Zionist Jew is to do the fact that that toying with exactly the kind of I canno- cafe that that made not his in rise. I made a guy sheep's eleven people in Pittsburgh. You know, it's the same stuff. The idea that, you know, the Jews of these cabals, and they control the world with a different source of racism is racism know, mashed up with conspiratorial Blace, just finally then a question, which you might be better placed around. So the most people I guess because it must have come up in your discussions with conspiracy theorists is anyway at all in which can be. Countered because one of the great difficulties of this. Of course, is that when people have confected a narrative out of more or less complete nonsense, and it's not tethered to fact at all, it's very very easy to adapt it, it's very very malleable. And it can it can be turned around against any argument or indeed they can accuse their interlocutor of being inaugurated is there actually any way. Did you ever see any example of a conspiracy theorist changing their mind? And then it happens in my experience happens when they decide themselves to to do it on counting situations where reasonable people have modesty us reason to change a Russian, you know, to change national conspiratorial belief that the occasions when I've through spoken to form a conspiracy theory. So, you know, Fulmer racists to it it's when they came to that realization themselves that own for. Process. Jon ronson. Thank you very much. It is weird that people believe in conspiracy theories. It may even be that. It's only we had people who do but recent history has taught us that. There are a lot of them the following brief history charts the evolution of the conspiracy theory from fringe mania to mainstream discourse. Okay. And and we got it down eagle in July. Twentieth. Nineteen sixty nine American astronauts, Neil Armstrong, and Buzz Aldrin landed on the moon. Did they? For man. I am free for the short answer. Obviously is yes. But the is a longer answer if you unlucky with who you sit next to on the bus or get buttonholed by at party a much longer answer this holds that man never went to the moon. The Apollo program was a monstrous fraud and he propaganda stunt cooked up by the US government and filmed in some studio backlot. This is an obviously idiotic hypothesis the Apollo program employed, four hundred thousand people, and it's almost certainly easier to just fly to the damn moon and get that many folks to keep a story straight the moon hoax theory, like conspiracy theories in general only merits are the contemplation or refutation because bizarre, and by many poles increasing numbers of people believe them. The moon hoax. Conspiracy theory is hopefully contestant field probably the stupidest. But it certainly wasn't the first people have been believing in conspiracy theories for as long as people have been believing in anything religion usually rooted in the idea that some unknowable omnipotence is orchestrating events. Behind the scenes is very arguably a point on this continuum. But until recently conspiracy theories were regarded when regarded at all as an obsession of friendless, cranks, malodorous, bows Eto on that. The when you didn't in two thousand and two Buzz Aldrin himself articulated mainstream opinion on the subject when we read the heckling of one, especially pestilential toll mentor. He turned around on belted him. Reme- you're a coward and a liar and. But in this Richard century, regrettably, conspiracy theory has been energized and weaponized by the internet, and by social media in particular, which has inaudible ding, bats and crackpots previously and rightly shunned by civilized society to commune to depressingly influential effect this Richard century started pretty much with an event that could have been designed, and it's doubtless possible to find people who believe it was to excite the tin foil handed the dreadful terrorist attacks on the United States in September eleventh two thousand one. These inspired an industry of films books, and especially websites demonstrating that nine eleven was a false flag operation by the US government, and or Israel and all of haute shadowy players. None of these theories made any sense at all. But then conspiracy theories don't have to they function as an addictive means by which people who don't understand anything can feel like they understand everything and more crucially to the current political era as a rallying point for the angry and ignorant a coterie large enough to have some influence at the ballot box. Once it became clear that a conspiracy narrative could be constructed around pretty much anything the London bombings of two thousand and five sandyhook primary school massacre of two thousand twelve climate change vaccinations. The possibility that ever Levin has being replaced by a clone. The conspiracy theory became a powerful political weapon people trying to figure out why isn't he giving his president? It's not a birth certificate. The current president of the United States launched his political career by flaming up a conspiracy theory the one which holds that he's predescessor Barrack Obama held the office legitimately having been born. Elsewhere. I know that there's going to be a segment of people for which no matter what we put up visits. You will not be put to rest, we do not have time for this kind of silliness. We got better stuff to do. It was obviously ridiculous and even more obviously racist but as late as December two thousand sixteen. Thirty six percent of Americans were willing to declare that they believed it among Trump voters that figure it was fifty seven percent. This is possibly the defining paradox of Trump voters, they think noon landing this fakes, but professional wrestling is real. Because conspiracy theories so people keep manufacturing them, the idea that Hillary Clinton was running a paedophile ring from Washington DC pizza joint was persuasive enough that one adherent turned up with a gun. This one has walked into a cult called Cunanan which Seve's that President Trump is the target of a deep state plot to thwart him. Whereas surely any deep state worthy of the name might have figured out a way to keep a bloviating simple to note of the White House before. Now, we have even endured a revival of the most odious of all conspiracy theories the one which holds the holocaust never occurred. Not only was the holocaust meticulously documented it was meticulously documented by its perpetrators who were as bureaucratic as they were evil. And it is telling that holocaust deniers are for some scarcely imaginable reason only ever interested in denying the holocaust. There is no such review. Tendency dismissing for example, the occurrence of the San Francisco of quake or d day or the nineteen seventy-two FA Cup final. But right there is why conspiracy theories are effective infinite and doubtless inextinguishable people believe what they would prefer to be true rather than waters. You're listening to the foreign desk for a wind to look at the historical context of conspiracy theories. Joined by Karen, Douglas, she's professor of social psychology at the university of Kent where research focuses on beliefs in conspiracy theories. Karen, is there a particular kind of conspiracy theory, which is any more likely than any other to gain traction or will people just believe anything? It often seems a little bit of a mystery wise on conspiracy theories sort of take off really capture public attention and others just full by the wayside. And we don't really know a great deal about why apart from I guess, the more obvious explanations. Such as people won't to have an understanding and won't to have a concrete explanation for an event, that's very very important to them such as if the president is is shot or celebrity dies. Suddenly or for big events that are happening in the world like like climate. Change that people don't want to come to come to terms with that want to have to come to terms with then these sorts of events tend to attract conspiracy theories. But then there are lots of conspiracy theories about these events in some of them take off and some of them daren't nothing. We know a little bit less about the actual features of the conspiracy theories that work versus those that daren't if that makes sense. Possibly just as simple as that. Then that this is a manifestation of that very common human desire to try and find order and meaning in a world, which often seems to be lacking both of them. That's definitely one explanation for why people believe in conspiracy theories in this some psychological evidence to suggest that that is the case if you examine very very basic cognitive processes such as patent perception. Like, basically people vary in the extent to which they do see patterns in the environment. And that tendency explains conspiracy beliefs as well, so people who are more likely to see patterns and agency in the environment, especially when it's unlikely to exist. So we're talking about illusory patents patents that aren't real. Those people are more inclined to believe in conspiracy theories. So there's some evidence that a very, very basic. Unitive tendency to try to find order meaning is associated with people's likelihood of adopting conspiracy theories. So you can kind of extrapolate that to society is a hole in wanting to explain the world as a whole, but it can be boiled down to a very basic cognitive process. You talk about people looking for patterns, which which may or may not be a loser in this is a thing. That's always will often struck me about conspiracy theories that a lot of them are. So you would think so evidently preposterous that it's impossible to imagine anybody actually literally believing this stuff is it your sense that people do actually literally believe this stuff like whether it's shape shifting lizards from the parallel dimension who was secretly controlling life on earth. Or is it just these rituals? These are beliefs you're supposed to subscribe to in order to maintain feel t to whatever social group you've chosen in a way, I guess that a lot of practicing religious believers. Don't literally necessarily believe that there was a big arc with two of every animal on it. But you kind of have to go along with that. Because these people I understand what you mean. And I think that there's a little bit of both of those things going on some people genuinely do believe that the world is being governed by shape. Shifting lizards? Some people actually do you believe that the is flat? They're in a minority. But some people actually do genuinely have those beliefs. But of course, it is also the case that people are more likely to believe things that are being told to them by people who they trust and people who they know and members of groups that they belong to because they trust them and also their identity concerns you want to be seen as a good member of your group. So in some cases, you are more likely to subscribe to conspiracy theories that are are about your group a told to you about your group because of those sorts of concerns about being a good. Member of the group is all, but I do think that a lot of the time. These these beliefs are genuinely held, and if you look at some of the more common conspiracy beliefs like climate change is an entire hoax that president Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA, then you're getting into territory where a lot of people have those beliefs. There's a big difference between lizards and climate change conspiracy beliefs, for example, can return to the psychology of the individuals in those small groups is there any sense that they grasp on the conspiracy theory, as I guess some sort of a an excuse for their own professional or personal failings that you give yourself this comfort that the reason that you haven't fulfilled the destiny that you imagine was yours is that you have been thwarted by for example shape. Shifting visits from parallel dimension. And therefore, it's not really your fault. Yeah. Definitely. That is definitely a component to by people believe in conspiracy theory. Issues such as feeling powerless liking entrust just generally being mistrustful person people from minority groups are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories on people from historically disadvantaged groups are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. And there's this sort of sense that it is a way to explain oh, come to terms with the things that a lacking in your life. So if you feel powerless then kind of learning about conspiracy theories, a believing in these conspiracies kind of enables you to regain a sense of power because you have maybe knowledge that other people don't have or at least you have an explanation for the kind of the predicament that you're in. Just to follow that up a little bit further. And I don't know if any research has been done into this in terms of the kind of people more susceptible to it. And this is an an entirely anecdotal observation of Moines rather than a scientifically arrived at conclusion. But is it the case that men vastly more susceptible to this kind of thing than women? Actually, no, no, there's no evidence really of gender differences in terms of belief in conspiracy theories. So if you think about your prototypical, conspiracy theorists, the type of person that usually comes to mind is a is a middle aged white man usually American from somewhere else. But usually a middle aged white man who spends a lot of time on the internet. And there's no evidence to suggest that that's the case in all of the studies and experiments that I've run I've never once found agenda difference in belief in conspiracy theories, if anything it it tends to be women who believe slightly more than men, which is completely counterintuitive Vobis both interesting and surprising. You quite right. The popular images of the sort of the middle aged mile fulminated with his his foil hat on pounding furiously. It he's keyboard exactly, which I guess brings us to the obvious concluding question, which is that once people have got invested in. Conspiracy theory is there any way at all to persuade them out of it. Or is it like joining some sort of cult can they be deprogrammed or older people basically need to arrive at the conclusion on their own. Some evidence does suggest that once people believe in conspiracy theories, they're very very difficult to shift. So these beliefs are very very difficult to stop people believing. So there are some potential options that are open to be able to try to convince people otherwise one is fairly straightforward, and you provide counter arguments, this is something. So if you believe in a conspiracy theory than you present arguments against that conspiracy theory was not true, and that does tend to work sometimes. But again, once the belief is already there the studies that have been run so far in there. There aren't many studies to be to be fed that if you're on this particular question, they do tend to. Suggest that it's very very difficult to get those beliefs to change the the most optimal way to reduce the influence of a conspiracy theory is to to people with the correct information before they are exposed to any conspiracy theories. So it's like, you're kind of inoculating people against this misinformation, which is not very practical. I think it's it's it's practical solution in some cases, if you can act quickly if you feel but conspiracy theories a likely to take over then you can sort of engage in this kind of type of inoculation giving people the correct information. But once the conspiracy theories, they're the horses bolted in it's too late. There are other techniques that have been used not in Meyer and research, but others have tried Huma as a way to kind of combat conspiracy theories, and they've found that kind of making fun of. The sorts of the areas is often a way to kind of diffuse diffuse them all in limit their power. But yeah, there's a lot more research that really needs to be done. I think to really try especially in cases, where conspiracy theories a likely to be harmful such as kind of the case where people believing conspiracy theories, and they don't get their children vaccinated in situations. Like that I think that research is really do need to think quite creatively about what to do about these theories once they are out there because they can be quite dangerous. Guarantor does. Thank you. Four. Episode of the foreign desk way back next week and look out for the foreign desk. Explainer which is available every Wednesday. The foreign disc is produced by your girlfriend and Bill Lucci building. So edits the program with help this episode from seven miles. Thanks also today would Stevens when Andrew Miller. Thanks very much for listening until next time. Goodbye.

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