19 Episode results for "Isaac Story"

Challenges The Best Way To "Sow In A Famine" - Pedro Adao - CFR #463

FunnelHacker Radio

34:10 min | 1 year ago

Challenges The Best Way To "Sow In A Famine" - Pedro Adao - CFR #463

"Welcome to click bottles radio where we go behind the scenes and uncovered the tactics and strategies. Top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host Dave Woodward. Everybody I cannot tell you how excited I am to have my dear friend Mr Pedroia Dole on the show. Beta. Welcome. Dave how already my friend I am so excited. We I I always think I should. Just record in post out the pre interview type stuff is there talking? That's all the best stuff. One of these days I'll have to actually what behind the scenes with Pedro but oh my gosh. But those guys don't know Patriot he's been crushing it. He's not the challenge guy more. He's a dear friend each. Like five or six to comical awards. Fast growing affiliates dream. Car Award winner inner. Circle member. But. The best part is this is a man who's got deep faith and is super super focused on helping others succeed. In fact, today were diving deep into really how to sew and why you must. So in a famine a both Pedro and I have have had the. Experience when we weren't ready when the famine hit and little got pummeled. I, think you said a best for being throttled back in. Business. Mind ended up on basically. Spent a ton of time on my knees trying to figure out what the heck am I going to do next and I know. You had many of the similar types of things I've been doing enough talking Rocard Peter what to see it or audience. Now Hang is happy to be here and Yeah David and a great time before the record button hit. So we're going to do our best to make sure that we. Deliver. The goods for you guys in as a recording this day we know obviously, we're still in this will pandemic in our literally. I. Just Got Word on my phone that You know aren't governor up here in California to shut down the state again. and. So I know that for a lot of your listeners, they're gonNA listen to this right now in real time. And I just want to share with them to make them out what they can be doing right now and the end just the importance of actually but I call sewing. Or investing into your life, it's your business into yourself during a famine time and what we're seeing right now because of this global pandemic is a famine there are companies, industries, businesses that are gone better filing for bankruptcy in the process of like there are in this is like cleaning out. Not just business like the school system is being cleaned up. Is being. All these things Dave that were all of these systems and processes that maybe were. Kind of old school or a little bit kind of just have been left a left alone for too long. All of the abilities in society are being exposed because of this of this Corinthian, this pandemic and literally, and I I, I believe is fam- intact of season and so I have just. From from day one, this famine hit like I got my mindset around. This is an opportunity for me to so and serve at a time where I'll probably where I'll probably never be rewarded this well, ever again because there are certain types of harvest, there's certain types of rewards that are only available in times of great difficulty in crisis, and for many people that are like Gosh Pedro like this is almost over I missed the window. I don't think so and so that's kind of what was on my heart to talk about today Dave but man I'm looking forward to our conversation. Now I'm excited I think cat for a little context here I want to tell the story of Isaac. Just. So people understand why were calmness and why we talk so much about the so in a famine. I've I've had the opportunity of seeing. Four major cycles as an entrepreneur. The last one, thousand, two, thousand, twelve, literally white me out. I paid just talking about I when this one hit I had the same feeling he added I am not going to go through. I'm not GonNa, have that happen again and a lot of it was the mindset in know you were talking earlier about this whole idea of while not Tony, Romm don't have the powerful mindset but. What happens at least from my experience is once you've gone again, we talk about these entrepreneurial cycles and I've always said I would never go into business with a partner who hasn't cycled at least once. Meaning I WANNA, make sure they've gone through some hard times because that's one thing that you're going to do as business owners or entrepreneur. But before we go into that, I want to go back give us some backstory as far as the context of Isaac Story from the Old Testament on exactly how this will ideas are so in a famine and how you read from that. So, guys, this is like one of the oldest storage you can get like this is literally in the Book of Genesis Chapter Twenty Six. And it's it's Isaac. You know who was who was Abraham son talked about there was a famine in the land. And and literally Isaac like no food like famine like family means no rain and it does no rain you can't grow fruit. So this is a big problem, right? Like if you're living off the crops and there's no water you're in trouble. So it says the story that literally. Says, is it was gonNA leave his Lan who's on the leave is territory to go off into Egypt to try and find food in a distant land. and. It says that the Lord said no stay here. Stay here in this land and so right here. And And literally, it didn't make any sense like why would I so see in the land where there's no water right and so Isaac, distrusted he sowed in this time of famine and the story says that in the exact same season, he was able to reap what's called the hundredfold harvest, which is not one hundred x that's hundred exit huge turn. A Name I company he no. But he actually showed a hundred fold harvest, which is to to the one hundred power, which is a crazy huge number right and so there's this. There's this promise that when you. So in times of crisis when you saw in times of famine. You can reap these just. You can have these record types of harvest and so many of us want the windfall Dave like we all want the million dollar fun. We all WanNa hit a big. We all want those opportunities to have these huge windfalls and reap these. And yet many of us don't ever one of face a famine. And when I've seen is that You don't get the hunter harvest without the famine. and. The famine is not up to me or you dave like we can't just cause famines to happen you're living your life and these. These famines com they come every. So often we don't control that or we can't control us how respond when the famine shows up and because like you, Dave. I. Went through a really really hard time in my business and six seven years ago completely failed in business was massively depressed battle of suicide like literally over a year. But I was good for nothing literally was praying to God not to wake me up. because. I found myself in so much debt and this huge mess. I didn't I wasn't really happy at looking back on that time. I, I'm not proud of myself like I really felt like I just spent three years on the couch getting beat up. By. By negative negatively and and Dow fear. UNBELIEV and man, we lost everything. And so when this crisis came knocking I just took a stand for myself my family I was like. Now. I've already been stolen from what's before I've already met fear beat me up for three years before are already allowed myself to get plundered once before not this time. And the big thing David until you earlier was back then. My kids were still young enough. They don't really remember that. I don't remember seeing their dad literally shell of a man on the couch like just in a ball. But now my kids are twenty, nine, hundred and seventeen. And I was like there's no way. I'm GonNa let my kids see me stressed out and frayed and worrisome and shrinking back. There are going to remember that when covert hit and the world was panicked, their dad showed up served at scale and so man like since I would say that this first few days a little bit strange but I would say about a weekend. I just I was like, no like this. This is happening for me not to me. And we just launched the biggest challenge of our life, and that moment went all an ended up serving twenty thousand plus entrepreneurs all over the world ninety nations. Gave Away my core, my lily gave away my three thousand dollars signature program trained it live for free for thirty days just because I. wanted people to have the skills and tools they need to win online. And then on the back of that ended up doing a multiple seven-figure. Challenge when we just opened up the program at a huge discount. and. These laugh hunting days. Dave. Since covert hit. What I believe we've literally done. Four years of business we the company advanced four to five years in the last four months. Simply because I think we responded correctly to show up in servant and value in his time of famine I wanNA. Encourage if you're listening to us right now like it's not too late, you didn't miss the window. This thing is still here. And if if maybe if you're not super pleased with how much progress you may be you may her not yet made in this time? It's not too late. You can still get some seed in the ground during this famine time and So yeah, that's kind of that's the story of Isaac and that's just a real application. Sometimes, they read the Bible with these stories about people from three, thousand, four, thousand, five, thousand years ago it doesn't seem like it's relevant for today. And here I am telling you like. Guys like I literally just have experienced this in the last three or four months and I'm just like you guys I'm in this community. Funnel I'm an Internet marker I'm here launching businesses and just like you doing things just like you right now and it's still possible still available. So and I'm excited I'm excited Davis to encourage and equip and help people like just make this time count you know I appreciate that. Thank you so much that I can tell you I think some of the main takeaways there was As you're listening to this realize that sewing is a ton of work. It is not easy. This is literally planting win. It doesn't seem like you're gonna read anything at all. There's no guarantee of one hundred x at the end of this realized that the sewing aspect is if you don't have the knowledge, this is where you're doubling down and you're doing the work you're actually going out and you're gaining the knowledge you're going into other people's challenges. You're you're doing whatever it takes to gain that knowledge I think the heart. Giving you bitch which I love an Isaac story is so often know I'm just going to ban on where I'm GonNa go do something new and I think he's an entrepreneur we get this it's so much the grass is always greener someplace else. There's always another shiny object there's always an easier better way I've always been in the impression when you feel like You've been inspired or receive revelation or whatever term you want us if whatever the heavens basically open and you feel like you know what? This is what I'm supposed to do realize double down on that I. Your guts going to tell you even though everyone else is saying you know what I I'd probably I'd bleed go go to Egypt type of a deal. Understand. If you if you know in your heart of hearts, this is what you're supposed to be doing and you really feel it spend the time do the work. Twice as hard. So it three times as hard whatever it takes to make sure that you're doing it so that when you get down on your knees when you whatever meditation whenever you're GonNa say you do try to tap into that divine source to realize that as you're doing that you're going to get the inspiration your get that revelation. So often we have to. Walk into the dark, and then that light appears it's not until the water laps at your legs that you begin to realize Oh you know what the waters are going to park. I'm actually going to be able to get through this thing and I think one of the things I'm love Pedro about about what you've done and as I see, no, we were talking just. Before we got on here about. Again a lot of mutual friends I actually was listening to your podcasts. Jail the John Dennis on you'll fire as you're going through your challenge with him. I was so impressed with the way in which. You went and you did it a time where it didn't make any sense. Fortunately you had a lot of friends who supported you. You've talked about Pete Barr. She talked about Rolling Frazier talked about Jeff Walker and Jimmy Johnson others were. Now's the time and I think it's important as you as you're listening to this to make sure if you don't have those types of friends around you, they don't have to be the same the Evans everyone else but you should have some people who you can bounce ideas off those people who are like you know what now is that time? I think that so often. Those people who really. Deep down inside know you to your core that's where you need that sound mastermind a community to want to. So again, I appreciate that I've loved you to kind of dive in if you don't mind and talk a little bit about this whole concept of a challenge, obviously you're the challenge guy, you are the king of. Challenges, you literally have done more challenged than I know of anyone else doing and you've done shoot seven-figure challenges you happen to you and pete were top by second or first second third what are generous first, second or third? anyways. As far as on the mastermind DOT COM launch, you've been able to actually apply a lot of what you're doing right now and using a challenge. Obviously, we have our one frontal Richie Andre huge proponents of challenges, but help people understand how they can use a challenge in their business now. I. Mean I've been studying marketing for a little bit now indefinitely I mean. Just a little. But? It's not like a twenty year joining but I know I'm been reading the books and by the courses like I would say probably for a good six seven years not right. and. I don't think I've ever seen anything like challenges in terms of. Their versatility Dave. Are So versatile. And what I think is the most important about the challenge is how forgiving it is. You know it's the I think it's the most forgiving of all marketing strategies meaning you don't have to be perfect. You know like I think things like vsel and running traffic to lead into vsel. And then maybe a Webinar those are amazing. Other amazing tools. But guys like just to be real like you put you kind of be a pretty good copywriter and. And Your Webinars Be Pretty Pretty. Damn good like I mean, like very, very, very good at convert especially cold traffic, and so like I know very accomplished marketers smart sharp people who still don't have Lebanon, they can run traffic to. And so with the challenge, like with the challenge, for example. Literally you are. You are actually just earning people's trust. You're you're you're you're just leading by serving I call it I call it taste and see marketing it's to me challenge. Davis length the COSTCO SAMPLES RIGHT? It's low that you go through cops go and I don't WanNa buy Bagel bites today but there's a lady with a little Bagel by now you want. Tribeca by Mike. Sure. I pop in my mouth on my these are good when more and more now buying a bag of bagel bites whatever it is because I tasted and see that I liked it and I would never have bought those Bagel bites if I didn't taste it right there men the challenge is taste NC marketing it's like there is so much. There is so much cynicism Dave in the marketing world. There's so much hype. There's so many people over promise under deliver, and so when there is this huge mountain of trust to overcome like why not just make it. So easy me we talked about risk reversal in marketing. And advanced concept. The challenge is the ultimate risk reversals. You know a client Addison strategy because you're like, Hey, I'm GonNa, let me protest rhyme. Let's spend five days together. Let's spend seven days together. Let's spent thirty days together. If you're crazy Russell and me and others have done thirty day challenges, I don't recommend those for. Like, it's a marathon I've done thirty one day live every single day. It's crazy but guys literally take all the risk off the table by the time you make your offer people know who you are. They know what you do the either like you or they don't they don't they're gone. and. They're like, well, like I like this person, they can really helped me and I was like if you're actually really good at what you do. The best way to market is just show people. Like. Just let him see how good you are like why Why make them have any trust or why make them have to trust you I don't want to build a trust me at all. Let me show you. Let me just show you and let you experience it. Then you're lying and so I think challenges plus it gets people to into action date. So many people yeah are just stuck thinking about things and the challenges with the micro winds having them take steps every day people are building confidence along the way, and then you're getting him into positive momentum my time you already invited him into your offer. They're actually Arnie in momentum they're not going from sitting still to this huge jump to your offer and the culture I mean you can crank culture and challenge that you can't do anywhere else. My Gosh I can go on and on but So you cut me this where do people start sending people are listeners going I may have been exposed to one frontal challenge. I may have done three or four other different challenges but I don't know how I'd do it myself. What's where does the person start? I question. So I say this there there's two. I think this way day doing a challenge to earn to earn or to learn. Love that a right away decide am i. what's my number one need right now? dwayne money. I know most of us will yeah. I. Need Money. Pedro. But some of you need actually. Learn more by your marketing you need money right now. So I challenge if you already have an offer day that you can birds, you have an offer, you've sold it to. You. So you got case studies. You gotTa Give Progress Service but you just having a hard time marketing maybe the Webinar thing has been tough for the Sol's. A challenge. Where you start you start backwards it's okay. At the end my challenge I want people to think about buying my offer is now the next. Best logical stack, right. So if you have an offer, I would start at the offering mine and work backwards. And then of course, there's a lot of nuance to this that we teach. But if you don't have an offer I, think that's important. I I know for us, it's one of the things when we looked at the. Challenge that we actually paid a lot of tension to was trying to find out who is the best customer for could falls. And for us it was it was more learning and they earn I mean, we actually give away hundred percent of of the cost or affiliates and stuff. So I think too often people overlooked learning piece and if so much on the Ernie. I against Ecuador's said, if you already have an offer, there's nothing better to do than actually have a challenge that leads ended up 'cause you will really identify who your ideal customer is doing. And, you're GONNA create and you're going to, you're going to find out. What their biggest concerns are like, what's in them up and so and then, and if you don't have an offer yet. Then guess what start doing some play with some challenge ideas star identify, identify your Client Avatar I call it your who, and then it finally that you wanna serve the problems you want to solve. Do a challenge around that those ideas and then just start serving adding value lead by serving and start asking them questions seeing what they like. Hey, what's your biggest problem here and you're going to get a feel for your nejd The first launch hundred Dave I wasn't trying to launch on REX. I ended a thirty day masterclass using expert secrets framework. It was a give I'm like I'm at teach for thirty days just to kind of literally just pay it forward. I had no plans of launching a company no plans to make an offer whatsoever I just passionate about seeing these people better served. With entrepreneurship marketing from a faith based perspective. Well. In they demanded an offer from me, they're like, no, we can't leave us now and so guys like literally I've watched multiple senator will be in a business in less than two years. Ninety trying to make an offer an imagine what you could do on purpose. So I'm telling you when you just saw start serving people adding value, they will tell you. Now, give you clues as to what their problems are, what they want to buy from you and so I think the best way to discover your niche and really find your lane is just do a bunch of challenges and you kind of find that pocket like guys a challenge you can challenge in a day or to. Do it for five days, and then you can learn do I like that niche or not, and most people dead. You know this spend years old should go into this. Niche they spend years thinking when you could do a challenge three and five days and find out in a week and then move onto the next and just keep going from kind of niche offered offer until you find your spot and I think the challenged model is so easy to pop up deliver and they'd just wrap up that. Don't I mean like a Webinar I love Webinars, I'M GONNA launch my first Webinar hopefully in a few weeks. Is Webinars I. Think when you have a killer offer, the Webinar is how you scale it and get your life back. Guys real talk for two years. I have not had a like, I have been all in on my business Lake Dave's riots been challenged challenge and challenge like. I I mean I have. Worked my face, off for two. Nouns starting to kind of get back into the got my trainer back. I'm trying to get my. I can like, okay that'd be. Here but. So when you have a killer offer and you have it all down in then the webinars and you get your life back, you get your time back. So I'm in that phase now. That I'm going to start to explore that. But until you've got that debt rock-solid offering your marketing and everything's Duke just do challenges. Craig social among the social proof day and you guys ever seen a better to social proof now never seen. Never like. Through the roof and so. So are you looking to learn or earn? Do you know who you WANNA work with? Are you still testing have a solid offer or you still on the hunt ahead? Dumb but that's absorb your challenge the more about learning. Then think about topics ideas where you can get the most amount of input from people in the about earning money than just man does bill that challenge like a little step-by-step math to make them ready to buy your offer, and you can even use Russell's kind of perfect webinar sequence almost as kind of a hack. The perfect Webinar Dave and just instead of doing it over ninety minutes. You can bring that into lying or five days and you can take. Those three secrets at day to day three, day four right and then. So if you wanted to kind of like a very. Simple framework. Of course, we've got some you know obviously more you know challenge Pacific Fan Again, folks thinking about our challenge is different. Does that last part you gotta broke up there and how challenges different than what? Yeah and I think that's walking us how a challenge is. It's different than obviously a Webinar or of ESL, but we're going to like about Dave is a challenge is not a marketing tactic. It's an actual overarching strategy. So. Critical. I people confuse strategy and tactics all the time. Clean everything. Everything that you learned about copywriting you're going to use where your challenge all the stuff you learned. Guess what you're ESL has funnel to sell the challenge. Your webinars learning how to Pitch Webinar guess what the Webinars Day for the challenge. So all of what you've already learned on the journey to get here. Now comes under the umbrella and the architecture of this challenge framework, and so you're like Oh man I just wasted a year learning webinars you waste anything. This challenged model is now going to allow you a chance to showcase all of what you've learned. And so it really is it's an overarching strategy and here's the cool part. Day. A challenge where I have brand new students who were literally have made their first dollar online using challenge. Like they've made their first dollar I. I've used challenges to build now an you know. On, a way to eight figure business and you guys easy challenges to build a hundred million dollar business. So these things work whether you're zero. Seven figures, eight figures you know what? Nine figures. It's crazy dave world. You see one framer now walks away with a brand new person as one hundred, million dollar company like you guys how rare is that it? No and I think. Please understand listened to challenges unique to information market space I. Mean Challenges No matter what what I mean. I originally thought a challenges in the fitness industry that's first time I thought of challenges and realize your brick and mortar businesses. They are great for challenges you. Are there so many places. So please understand this is not just an information marketing. Internet play. This is literally something no matter what business you have. Gary Financial Services on your selling pets or dog or what if there is a challenge that will work in every single industry from from faith to fitness to whatever fad you might be have and I think we agree totally agree I think some of the. So during my lodge day by envy to guy named Brian Blair Ryan was the CEO of by Salis. Yeah Remember how they grew by Saleh's. Weight Loss Challenge. They sold over six hundred and their biggest year six, hundred, thirty, million dollars. A protein powder? On the back of a ninety day weight loss challenge now is it that was our one marketing strategy? Ninety eight challenges out there but the whole culture around it. Six hundred thirty million dollars of a physical product day not info business. Coaching consulting not you know physical price so I don't care what nature in there's a challenge that will work or you and your space I think challenges actually will work even banner in physical products like. I'm doing some really cool. I'm working out with some people some some pretty cool brands and these are physical. Physical Product. Challenges and I'm excited about it because. I think it's I think once even better in that space and look how amazing has been for us and the online digital world dave imagine what's possible but no. I totally. Agree I paid your I could talk to you for hours and I'm sure my audience would love to hear that I know we're getting close to wrapping up I got two things real fast one is. Traffic people always want to how do I get traffic or what's the best way for me to get to a challenge. While there's basically two ways I think Russell. I mean honestly traffic secrets is going to be a great place to go. But for me, what I've done is I've actually done really well Dave with cold traffic. Because my first started dave no one. Knew me. Like I had there is no nobody wanted to be an affiliate for me because no one even. Though there was no get affiliates when no one even knows by who are you so I start, I've really still all of this on the back of cold traffic. and. Proposed traffic into a challenge called traffic wool. If I was called the masterclass so I used I used Russell's masterclass model then I kind of it was it was until two thousand, nineteen. F- nineteen even heard about challenges. Now's like challenges just a paid masterclass I do that. Free masterclass paid challenge the let's go pay challenge right. So I've destroyed ran a ton of coal traffic and. Apparently that's not easy to do. So I have all these like I've always really smart marketers. The Gut to they're like, Bro, how do you get your call traffic convert like we can't make it work and what do you mean you can't make it work you guys are way more famous than me do I can't figure this out and because they have they have they have huge databases already and they have huge credibility. They've been able to work through emails and affiliates but what do you do you have that right? So you gotta get cold traffic to work and for me I it was. Carved, deep. Niche Dave I. I think the biggest the biggest keys to my success is not just challenges, but it's challenges. Highly targeted to a very niche audience and most people are unwilling to niche down and commit to a niche at the level. I. Have an hour and sailing commit to your niche and commend to you. And too many people are trying to speak to broad of audience. And they don't realize. It's GonNa. You're not gonna be able to find her footing like all I know people that WanNa talk about like. I WANNA be about like motivational stuff and mindset in online dude like really. So you WANNA. Be The you want to be in the same level as Tony. Robbins Gingras -I like, why would you WanNa try and speak at that level of the conversation you're GONNA to get lost like go. Go talk about my instead to overwhelm stay home. MOMS. Breastfeeding. And now. Now you'll get an audience there and they don't care about. Breastfeeding but. You are obstetrics are overwhelmed stay at home mom who was home schooling and breastfeeding has got three babies. Now, they want hear from you. So Corvette Niche. So tight only you really can fit inside of it and you can become their they're. Who they want to hear from the most and most people were just not willing to do that. I think it's a fear of missing out. It's the oval, but I can also help these people I can also I can help men and women I can help entrepreneurs and employees can help. I call it the. I'm like dude. You're not. You're not. You're GONNA have a hard time in. So I think. That's how I was able to get cold traffic to work, and obviously we know a direct response when one. Whomever can spend the most require. The client is GonNa probably win and if you can't get cold traffic to convert, you don't really have a business in my opinion like you're not really. Say. You're not really direct response marketer and my opinion until you can give facebook youtube or some dollar and make back a dollar more. and. For me it was challenges and micro niches. Love it will pay last thing and that is I know people listening you're GONNA died. How do I get a hold of Patriot? What's the best way? How do I get more of him? Where do they go? How do they reach you? What's where do you want to send him? Yeah. So by the best thing to do is if you really I mean if you want to know more about me and kind of to my website, Pedro Dot Com but if you really want to learn more about like Kind of what we've done with challenges kind of for you dave and your audience, they're going to crush it with challenges dot com. Slash Dave crush it with challenges dot com forward slash Dave and I'm GONNA put up a special bonus training maybe on I mean it's kind of like the maybe the void, the three or four five biggest mistakes see people may challenge is honestly a lot of folks are running challenges now and I look in Muslim and I'm like, yeah, I work in order so I'll do some for your audience Dave. I'll do I'll do the training on why challenges why challenges are now? They should be doing challenge and maybe how to avoid the top five mistakes I. See People Think I'll do that as a gift for your audience here crusher Vicki Com board slash eight. Crush with challenges dot com forward slash day. Thank you so much but always great I love talking to you but I think it's been dazed with you. So next time and Huntington Beach I'm I'll be cooking for sure you're. Let's go come on. We'll talk soon. Thanks. Bye.

Dave Pedro Isaac Story Russell David Dave Woodward Egypt Davis Mr Pedroia Dole Tony Peter Abraham California Lake Dave facebook Huntington Beach Pedro Dot Com
Episode 245: Her Torah - Yael Kanarek

Judaism Unbound

46:51 min | 9 months ago

Episode 245: Her Torah - Yael Kanarek

"Support for this episode of Judaism unbound comes from the Osman Family JCC in Palo Alto California whose vision is to be the architects of the Jewish future. The Schmidt Family JCC's is an incubator for new expressions of Jewish identity. It creates innovative Jewish learning celebrations, arts programs that inspire personal connections to people and ideas from across the Jewish world learn more at www dot palo alto JCC dot org. This is Judaism unbound episode two, hundred, forty, five, her Torah. Welcome back everyone I'm Dan Lee Benson and Lex Roessberg, and on the subject that we've been thinking about over the last few weeks feminism and the American Jewish community. This week's project takes it to a new level. Our guest today artists L. Anorak has been working since two thousand sixteen on an incredible project called Terata, which means her Torah to rewrite the entire. Torah. The entire five books of Moses or the Pentateuch. In Hebrew and English to reveal the divine feminine as a central presence in the Hebrew sacred texts. She's doing this by regenerating the Bible meaning that male characters become female and vice versa words and concepts that are written in the masculine and Hebrew are switched to the feminine and Vice Versa, and we'll discuss all this indepth. The first draft of Torre ta in Hebrew was completed in April of twenty twenty and yet. is currently working with Bible. Scholar Tamar Biala. On the second draft, they're also already writing commentaries to this work and L. records been creating visual Madrid seem as fine art prints, exploring ideas in Jewish thought through letters and form Bait terata dot org the home for study in ritual of this re gendered Bible was inaugurated just recently on the holiday of Torah with a service led by two rabbis recent Judaism, unbound guests, Vera Rivera, and emily. Cohen Bay Torah aims to lead by example, with Jewish study and ritual held entirely in women's body language. You can visit this evolving site at www dot Beta rata dot org that's B. E. T. T. O. R. A.. H. Dot Org and just a few more words on today's guest. Yeah L. Kanak in addition to her work on Tura she is a visual artist and jewelry designer whose practice focuses on the relationship between language and form. She works in various media such as Internet. Art Large, scale sculpture, and fine. Jewelry. Yell Ken Iraq was born in New York City and raised in Israel. She returned in the early nineteen nineties to study and practice art and became known for her Internet are trilogy world of. She has exhibited her work at the Jewish Museum the Whitney Museum, the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and many more. She is the recipient of fellowships from the Rockefeller new media grant IBM, and lava the laboratory for Jewish culture where she designed the Hebrew Font goofy need for her jewelry collection in two thousand eighteen she installed a large scale sculpture commissioned by the US Department of State at the new embassy in Zimbabwe. Yeah. L.. is also an artist in residence at the ROMEU congregation? In New York City. I'll just note that in our conversation, we will talk about Torah, her Torah or this re gendered Bible Project, and sometimes about Toronto his era by which we mean the Torah as we've had it for thousands of years, and I should also note that the goal is not to replace thereto with Tara but rather for tower attached stand alongside Toronto as a work, of Jewish, sacred literature, and with that, we could not be more excited to get into this conversation so you. Welcome to Judaism unbounded so great to have you. Absolutely. So glad to be here. I'll tell you this is one of the projects that I. I would say I'm most excited about in the last five years. So I'm really I'm really excited to have this conversation because it's exactly the kind of bold. We've talked about Luther versus knowledge curve. In a good way to re gender the entire, Bible. So or the entire at least maybe I'll get to the Bible down the road. The Bible right you heard it here first folks. Can, we start by you telling us a bit of the story of how you came to take on this project. So about I think fifteen years ago I I was asked to lead a Seder I picked up doggone dynamic has reading through stumbled on came to a denial to analysts scratching my head is Deny Floral Might Lords Lucchino. Our Gods my lords guides is like okay. Wow. I haven't heard that before. Haven't noticed continued booklets stiffs redid like that the whole way and I was shocked to realize that there are no women I gotta except for the song. Miriam, women. Like I've been doing this year after year. And never heard that and what else am I not hearing? But at some point arrived at I, was studying from a a man rabbi. He was teaching sleep men, and at some point he said I actually don't know how to teach women and then he also said something that at some point you have to start building the vessels for the divine you have to start being the creator of those vessels and I was thinking I don't have anything to work with I mean I don't have language to work with. A The only thing that I have received was that I might position as. A help mate, I. Don't have the direct relationship to bail Levin. So that was frustrating and then it really stern no books at all it's like A. The library is missing. I went to a class and were studying one of the major shame that can make cringe. Like what if it was the other way round I mean how that would feel to a man to read that an the teacher literally said you know cannot be changed in him an artist would I hear something like that like interesting let's see. Let's see how that works in a went home and tied. Winter, the beginning 'cause that's where I felt that the critical moment is when they elohim creates the dom in his likeness and image. Male and female created them. That there's some code in there might be of help innate. So I went home and a did okay and looking. Created that Harare in her likeness image that's where where was it that particular moment female male created them. Looking at that wall. That's really interesting. Suddenly fail back the volume like literally volume of the texts went from two to ten. Can you say a little bit more just to just For a listener who may not be intimately familiar with the beginning of the genesis story in the Bible as we have it the Toronto the male version of the Bible the God Elohim Creates the Adam The adum his wife down the road is named Eve or Hover And your re gendered version. You have the Feminine Version L.. O. Heen. Who is creating something that sound like. Or Eve, but you've actually changed a little bit. So it's Ova. So just to set, is there that you are kind of rewriting the the story of the creation of human beings are you've written human beings also that in a way that that really fundamentally reoriented around the first creation being of this women this Cova? And that's how and when that happens your experience of it is is it's blowing why what? What was it that you that you saw as soon as you did that For SELENA understood agency. That's a different way of looking at the world that that that was that moment any I start to understand. The divine inspiration coming through me through other discount mother daughter lineage. Now, let's look at the world through that. So. That was really really quite quite a revelation in that. It was naturally like, okay. What else is here? Let's just do the whole thing. It later I. Found know the one of the tools which allow fight you know I'm as a contemporary artists are trained to take things apart and rebuild them. I always tried to look under the hood turn something on its head. There's a long history within the Jewish tradition of plowing a really kind of going to Texas finding words in other words, common words are taken apart and re shuffle or letters are changed. You Know Ali fine or some scene or change to reveal other meaning. And for me this is this is like you know this is building blocks for you know for making up making arts. You know this is how I love that what's so In looking there is the end the nothing. There's the. These away looking or Alah Goddess. There is in the mirror of the the end of Levin. In the beginning you get the me. So now in him, you have this really interesting relationship between the I the self. The nothing. And in between the things and I think this is a really interesting layer of the Phoenician for for the word leam the define that it's really encompassing with it. Their relationship that the self has with the infinite at those very nice way to start the Torre ta story, and now we're not even talking about sexual organs. Now, if people feel they need that, it's always gonNA be into dilatot is not going anywhere. In. The whole idea of the is not to come in a race total. The idea of attack is to open these stories to the perspective of women when the divine inspiration comes directly through mother daughter religion because now with this full agency through the story, we can build and create new meaning and we don't even know what that means is. Can you talk to us about like what actually is changing? Because I think somebody I don't want somebody to listen and be like okay. Cool. Change the genders great like the story is still the same. But like now different characters are existing because it's sort of the matter now women like a deeper than that. The Action Foundation of what the story is changes. I'd love for you to open up for us what that looks like and I mean maybe I'm thinking of what you did with the story of Abraham and Sarah who become Abraham and Sarah. All their names in that part of the story change. Isaac to I. I. Won't spoil what all the names are. Let's talk about that. But what happens in this text when you move forward from that initial story and you go into the remainder of genesis, the other books like how do things change when we do more of this gender flipping in the text of the Torah? So. Abraham means high father Meanti so became Ama- mother. Sarah. It was so I. I. But we ended up with Sal. We could trace the source for the name in. It's close in after she became becomes Sarah with the hey, means ministers. So we went with Sal. These are the high characters had gal became the stranger. It mean there in the letters and it fits into her role in the way she connects to that. You know I think. One of the really striking differences are actually in another story and that's the story of Mercia when was Schayes born and she's put in a in a basket on the on that tour. the what we call the Nile in Hebrew it's yet all but it also means it has the words a light will come. Will become and change it to take. In the feminine form. I think what's interesting there is that it's now more shah. means she will lift out of the water. It literally means that so more share becomes more shah. But it's now the son of her who comes down to the river and he sees the the bay, the child girl baby girl, and is her his heart goes to her and it's now her brother who overlooks from a distance and it's her father is now cold to nurse her. So what we were able to do is Bring men into the child caring. Part of life these are men we know in our lives, but they never had voice in these particular narratives or in the context of what we consider as reverend or something to protect and. In this is really a beautiful and the way we did that is that the furby allowed to give birth is used interchangeably for for women and men in the story. So we just added conceive. We added nurse and what happens is that the understanding of these words start to change you know if you want to imagine men becoming pregnant and nursing children, you could do that but we can also understand these words as caring for children in. Now, the daughters are the prime child. The father is built in his society he gains value from having daughters. We never ever ever hear that at all ever in our. In. Our world. That it's starts to change the mind. It starts to send the signals to remind to ask for a rebalancing. It takes women or at least my consciousness out of place in conflict tried to fight for a place I don't have to find for place. Here's the place. That's what it looks like. It always pretty absolutely not thrice pretty. And there are a lot of very difficult stories to negotiate. When the story difficult that's when. We make a greater effort at them in. That's where new new conversations start to come up. I just want to reemphasize for our listeners that like you were just saying with very few exceptions when it was absolutely necessary, you didn't add anything new here. You're simply `gendering the Bible and so there's there's no additional paragraphs here. It's more what happens to you as a reader when you start to see it this way and you notice things like you're saying. So in that particular story, what I noticed is that when Adam and Eve leave the garden of Eden, right we we think of it as they ate from the tree of knowledge and they realized they were naked and so God gave them some clothes. You know and that's kind of how we understand it and you could say, well, they they understood sexuality and so they were showing that a cover that whatever it is. But what really comes through in the way that you have it in reinforced by how you're talking about this is fundamentally birth process is that they were given skins meaning they were given their skin more that they were. They didn't have human beings didn't have skin they. They were bones and flesh that you is something that's in the original text, but you don't quite see it unless you're brought into it through this more his metaphor of birth. I mean I love now the creation of a woman. Is is really interesting as the first creation is the ability to sense. The second creation is where more material starts to come on. The VAA is created from breath and desktop the earth and the man is created out of bones and flesh out of by the fact that he's brought to her, she calls him each. By that, she makes her selfish acids. Another layer of becoming the these creatures is conscious creatures than they're brought into the celestial wound. They're like children in their behavior July didn't do that do that. You did that you know it's like that kind of level of conversation and then there's the moment where their birth begins by the fact that they start to experience themselves as separate. And it's a painful separation. You Know L. O. Heen wants to you know it's kind of it's hard to let them go. Basically what she's telling them is what's going to be outside the womb. It can't be as you know comforting you don't have that kind of protection. And she dresses them with skin. It's no sin it has to happen and it's messy. There's one story that I wanted to ask you about in part because it's on my mind because we recently did a project about it, which is the binding of Isaac Story. In the in this version, the binding of kids, clock and. The reason why it struck me particularly reading it in this region underway was because I there was a particular. Video that was made in our project on the binding of Isaac by a mother in Orthodox women who who son came out as gay and that was. Seeing negativity in parts of that community and that in a way she felt that the community was asking her to sacrifice her son by basically moving away from him. Because of his sexual orientation and she refused to do that, she refused to sacrifice her son very powerful video. It actually went kind of pseudo viral and a certain element of Orthodox community because I think people really felt the power of it and. It can't be really thinking about that story before I even knew about your project that. Would this story really have been possible. If if Judaism had come from a kind of divine feminine point of view, right meaning what a feminine God ask for. Human. Sacrifice. Would a would a mother? Really Be Willing to sacrifice her daughter in the way that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son. Well the question that this really allows us to raise is do we really think that at father can take their son to sacrifice them? How Atlanta with us now, but it allows us to think about how do we? What do we? How do we sacrifice our daughter for? and. Now, we can all be at the table you know because otherwise there. Sarah. She doesn't know she doesn't know things were you know stories have been written about that smell? But her voice she's not even there. So now MRI minds in the room and talk, which literally means heat she laugh is in the room. and. We did the first ever on this Pasha and we did it Toto Toyota to line by line during GEN network event. And while. That was really really amazing. You know having agency in the story even if the story is not pretty is. I can't even tell you how free. In I think he can have a bigger conversation I mean you can even say things like, okay Abraham is taking the talk. To sacrifice her or or immunize tastes taking, he talked to sacrifice him. I mean when you have two sides of the story. Than they can start to mate. I think that is that we have about what women can or cannot do are really are opening up and we've been it's been a relatively short period of time in human history that we've been seeing this and so one of the things that I love about Dr Ties that I'm not coming to it from the point of view what I think. Women are shoot would or would not do I'm putting it on the table on. St. Let's have station. But that because we're in the process of discovery you know is is at the end of it no, it's like one point Oh totally Onepointoh big project for one point. Oh but it has to be one coon. No, we have to have library of. Sacred Books that speak of women's experience in the secret terms we need to have that not only women for everyone. I also have to say that I don't necessarily think that this would solve the social order. But informs it in in really bright in very bright light is like x Ray. I mean, there are languages did not have gender systems are still designed to enhance mine even when people say So why not just go straight to not binary. We're. Not Than Binary. The perspectives in which things are moving in the world are designed in the in a man's mind. We need to know what the email mind is. For me what's so liberating and exciting about this project is so there's two layers. One is just the new text in and of itself a whole new set of options for interpretation I. Mean You hinted at this before but like The Way Jewish interpretation works in traditional texts and even less traditional text is like honing in on letters and were and like playing around with the specific letters in the all of a sudden I was thinking to myself. Oh. If if I inhabited a parallel universe or this universe where the characters aim Rommel once again where the first two letters are olof. Men instead of olive bet all of a sudden I'd be thinking Oh in Hebrew. The word team is the same letters Alef meme. If so like all of a sudden, it can be like, oh, the father there I am slipping the mother of Jews aim. Rama or Abraham. Like is like I. I could make the interpretive claim that like the mother of IFS. If mother the high if these are all creative translations of Aim Rama and then I could do like my whole thing about Judaism is a is a is a liturgy of questions in arguments ifs and like I could do a whole thing with that and maybe it sounds ridiculous when the first time we do it. But if you do that and then one hundred years pass all of a sudden that's traditional. We could easily do that. That's. That's how it's made. It me really like riled up and energized. But like I'm flashing to a class I took in rabbinical school last year where this didn't involve changing any tax. This was actually. We, did a we read like a scholarly journal Article, I'm blanking on the name, but I'm going to try to find it and put it in the show notes on our website. This scholarly article took an approach to the book of Ruth. So Not Torah the book of Ruth and encouraged a homo normative reading. It, which as opposed to a Hetero normative reading where you assume as a general rule in a Hetero normative reading that like people are heterosexual. So like you assume that a woman would be attracted to a Manusama, man would be attractive women Homo normative re reading assumes as the norm that men would be attracted to men and women be to all of a sudden the root the Naomi. Parts in the book of Ruth for those who haven't read. It like I encourage you to read it in this way like the ruth and Naomi Parts feel really really fascinating and interesting when you're assuming as a starting point that women are interested in women and there's also stuff with Bo is this other this guy character where he has some interesting tension with this sort of sideline male character that you don't spot if you're not thinking of it if you don't spotted if you're thinking in a Hetero normative way. With this does for me is it's really not just about. Switching one piece it opens up choice. It allows us to to make choices as readers and say, Oh, today Abraham can be a male figure because that serves. This particular look at the book of Genesis, and then tomorrow Abrahama is a female character because that. By the way I have no problem asserting. Gets to broader questions about like I have no problem asserting that one person can perform to use the Judith Butler term a different gender identity at different points in their story. I think that's that's perfectly possible, and so then the question is like, what do we do? Right? So my question is like wh- what would you encourage people to do with this liberating incredible set of possibilities of like oh? We have all these choices. What does somebody leading text study do with that? What is somebody reading do? What that? What somebody dislike looking to grow spiritually do without like what does it actually mean for people that are working with these texts? Just recently started. Down, with a weekly service. Led by rabbi, Niro, Rivera, and Rabbi Emily Cohen. If you, for example a person who's Connect to Judaism through ritual come to our rituals because all the prayers are in the female form. So old familiar prayers now are you you're going to stumble upon them and you're GonNa we hear them and so that's you know a way to do this kind of or have or or meets or patriarchal conditioning. It's a really good way to meet that. If you're person likely who likes to. Go deep into the tax take part in you know who likes to live in their. You know we're going to have many source sheets in different parts that you can start engaging and. Commentary, huge. So how what if learned from doing this is first of all, there's this big tree of story and it continued. Past Toronto Nathen to Christianity in Mormonism, and he's Lomb and other religions in Reno. Different than denominations it really comes to life with commentaries. Savannah additional stories So if you don't have patients to wait for me for us to do that, go ahead and do it. You know these stories are in public domain the belong to all of us, and if you feel inclined in WanNa, do go ahead and do it. You know if you need to hear this in throwing, go ahead and do it. It's our it's our stories. I wanted to ask you some questions about basically being an artist and how you approach this as an artist because in a way the part of why I'm so excited about this project is I've been fantasizing for years about this hypothetical artist who understands that the medium of art is Judaism itself. Right in other words, we think of an artist is somebody who's GonNa make him Nice Jewish somebody who's going to make some Nice Jewish paintings. When I talking about an artist I'm talking about somebody who comes and says my canvas or my paints is Judaism you know and but rather than seeing Judaism, the way that we're up and trained to see which is that basically Judaism is a piece of art that somebody else made and it's our job to either copy it very, very exactly like you almost think of a first year art students sitting in the museum and trying to. Trick trying to paint that exact picture. And it looks like a Rembrandt but it's not a rembrandt because Rembrandt the rembrandt you you just copied it, and in a way that that's kind of some version of that is how we're we're trained to imagine our relationship with Judaism and I think for a lot of us, that's not very exciting and so I've been talking about this this hypothetical artists that will come along and. Show us what it looks like when you take the material of Judaism itself and like you were saying earlier, know just naturally take it apart and put it back together years ago I talked to Ruth Calderon who we've had it in the show who runs a basically a tablet or a Jewish text study organization primarily focused on artists in Israel and I asked her why did You focus on artists and she said it's because you know I don't have to train an artist to do that taking part in putting back together. That's just what they do. So I have to do is teach them the text and then they're going to do interesting things with it. So I would love to hear how you reflect on that as an artist and the story of. Coming to this, and if you were trying to say to encourage people that were listening to this to come with that orientation to other elements of Judaism, how would you describe the artist's way in Judaism? So for me the only way to actually know something to make. I don't remember very well the only way for me to understand something is through making. I think the the description you you brought up, but the artist going to the museum to copy Rembrandt screamed because I've done a lot that even recently in whatever doing that is that I'm able by doing that is slipped my hand into the VINCIS hand. If I really followed closely his lines I can. Embody him. or his movement on the paper, I can really can really feel it. So and way children learn the fastest three mutation we learned through imitation as the greatest tool for learning. So I started asking civil case hallways is this done? So I was like, okay let me try and do it was like, okay. That's how it works. Commentary because we're so trained to receive it as like this monolithic thing, you can't touch, but we made it. Just ran into. This is a you know the precursor story for the flood is in the the epic of Gilgamesh, which is a much older. And one of the thing So it describes what what is brought into the. Family members and the CRAFTSMAN. The. Artists. They bring the artist in to the Chris. And that was dropped in the you know in the in the genesis for with the story, the artists are out. But if you go to any synagogue without the craftsman big this fleece civilised down without the you know the people who are make everything visualizing everything without the musicians that you don't have religion. Really you don't. There's nothing there what he's going to be left with who is GonNa be there to comment on anything in a seat also in texts for their texted I personally love, for example, the the texts where. They start to work on the crafted the building of the of the the Covenant. And more shackles on. Layla but are- daughters. Considered. Arunachal just to clarify the yes. The Tabernacle and lay means. But I, La the shadow of goddess daughter of my lights. This is the kind of mental space you need to start working on the different aspects of the Tabernacle. I feel when I read this text now I could feel my fingers. tickling. ooh Yes I'm right there right there with a text I know what this is. I. Know How to make that work. is fantastic or win more shah. Showed receives the tablets. The first set of tablets is made by lean. Right we you know. They said it's made out of stone, but they're kind of liking written from both sides. She takes him down there. No good. Clearly because the people are completely different space mental space these are probably undecipherable for those people they got a break, but then elohim tells more shot to scope them. She uses the word Sculpture Live within an what I'm right there with her I know what you'd facility means I know what's coming means how you do this kind of cutting projecting a piece of yourself into material I know how it feels I know what it means I. Know What she's doing there has she's projecting had been self into this work because it needs to come from the bottom. And when she goes up Elaine. Says I will write on the tablet but it's no it's more shallow rights on the tablet. So I know that to you know as an artist I know what these things mean from experience. Could never ever even dream to know any of this auto I would not even consider I'm part of that in any way at all bits selectmen we is that other person that's the difference that it's there's no, it's right in happening within my domain of experience. It's very scary for people I get it. You know I get it but the view is amazing if US amazing. I love that you talked about the tablets and the idea of sculpting and sculpture with the Tabernacle League. I often think about sculpture and one of the best lessons I ever got growing up in school like one of the few things that I actually like vividly remember from growing up in school was my art teacher when we were going to the art museum for a field trip said to us like it is very important that when you look at the sculptures and we had like whatever worksheets we were supposed to do with the museum like Oh, who who was the sculptor for this thing who like what was the story behind the like to make sure we actually read the descriptions were and the The Art Teacher said to us. When you look at the sculptures, you have to walk all the way around it and you have to look at it from all the different sites because if you look from just the side where the label is like, you're only going to see part of the story, you're only going see it from one perspective. So you gotta walk around the whole thing. So clear what I'm doing here like this is a metaphor it I also mean it literally like is actually a literal thing that when you look at a sculpture, a statue from different sides, you actually see different thing. But also it's a metaphor, right like you. You're you're bound to understand something new about a text if you look at it from a different angle from a different perspective and in this case with different pronouns so I'd that sculpture piece sort of brought that to me. So I think the the other piece I wanted to bring up though is you've actually been even more ambitious than it might have sounded thus far, which is only mean that positively folks thus far would know that you have taken on the project of rewriting. The Torah with changing the different genders. What you've also done as you started to do commentary I. Loved. You sent us a few prep documents and you sent us like these these little commentaries on the new text which honestly, I think four a tradition that there are some Jews, not all Jews and but like there are some Jews for whom the Torah that you can't really even learn the Torah without looking at the commentaries there people who really only read it through the Lens of the Medieval commentators. And their interpretations of the text and so like when people are reading the Torah, it's almost like you've got two fingers that you've gotTa have a one as your finger is on the the CORTEX in the middle of the page and a clue in one of the five books of Moses Books, and the other finger is in the side commentary to understand what the different interpretations are. You already given some of those interpretations from the new, Torre, Ta Angle, and I'm curious. Is Your Vision there that you yourself Will make you called it the heat the Canary Commentary because your name is close to Canary. Was Awesome and there's also the dates honey commentary because you're because tomorrow means date and your your co commentator is is named Tamar which I love those those word plays but that's awesome. Is your idea there that you're going to do this that the two of you are going to do commentary for the whole thing in addition to all the the core text that you're doing or is the thought like, Hey, everyone let's do this commentary like here's an example that I the canary commentator given now your turn like what's your take on? One of the things that happens the commentary just emerges in the process of rendering. As we really like Oh. Wow that's an interesting idea. Okay. Let's write it down and then it also We felt that some of the new Texas so could be confusing for people. So it's sort of to help especially with the names. If you don't know the meaning of the names, you're actually missing important method in which the story tells the story. So it. Actually a really important suggests even clarifying that you can say it's complicated but now absolutely, yeah come on board. Yeah. But you have to remember in this is hard to see unless I mean I can see clearly but it's hard to see from the when we live in the total side of things is that you have to grow new mind and. So you have to be the texts for awhile before in new minute otherwise you're doing commentary from Toronto and that we know so well. So it's very hard to shake that off it, but I should tell you also that in the process we're doing well, always go back we go to Mars. It will scholars so she brings from that. Then we go to go there. You know win especially when the verses are a very obscure and when you wouldn't know holiday dealt with certain words names and like that. But yeah, the idea is that this is a living Torah. It's not we're not finishing anything. We're just I just opened the door, but this has to be the collective. It has to be in the same way that it is a collective work. It has to be whoever is client and I'm saying if you if this is uncomfortable for you, it's perfectly fine. It's up for you know a S- you know there's A? Huge. Library. Enormous Library. But if you're like inclined to discover if you are seeking that kind of discovery is something really interesting that is becoming available here. This is my take on it have another take. We need that because that's how we can see better. That's how we can see better. Also, the other thing we did that we learned that was really striking is that we have to also. Change. The gender of the sacrificial animals that was in the binding of Isaac story too by the way the. Little little moment where it's a yell at instead of a`do. Rocked my world yes and imagine that in the invitee Kara the vindicates when with all the sacrificial animals, all the law run sacrifice. So now it's a cow and it's you know these are. We did it because it felt different. You know it felt different. We heard it differently and that people described in these stories are very close to their animals. So you feel this kind of intimacy. So as we wrap it up, I wanna ask you again about the process of creating this, I want to ask you a little bit about the experience of doing this because when you talk, there's a certain element where I almost feel like the spirit of prophecy is coming over. You know where where there's something where you read in the Bible of sometimes when that happens to some of the prophets or King Saul, it talks about that you know. The spirit of prophecy comes over him and I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about the feeling of being immersed in it for years and years, and are you channeling something? Do you feel like you're channeling something and if so what is it that you're channeling? That's question number one, the other question. Is Can you talk a little bit about? Having had this experience. What do you think we could do in the Jewish world today that would enable more people to engage in the kind of creative work in which you've engaged. I mean, you said that there's some people that part of it is innate part of it is just you an artistic type but I think there are a lot of artistic types that may not have gone become professional artists and there are others who many not know whether they are whether they aren't. Are there are there is there a pathway that you imagine might be a pathway that would help people kind of get onto a pathway of their experience of Judaism being one of creativity and imagination and play and reshaping rather than the experience that I think most of us have had in our Jewish upbringings educations. Let me say that again because my dog barked in our Jewish upbringings in education. So I will try answer the first one. When did it the first time in realize that there's a lot more here is filling a door opened. When a felt that the the other feeling of Kim immediately afterward, what is that I am not allowed to keep it for myself. I absolutely. It's my obligation to make it. No. So whoever needs it? Can have it. It's not an expression of my ego. I happened to be there I happen to be the person who has the I dunno the combination of tools and hold spa. I have kind of a personality defect. They don't house in innate reverence for authority. I mean you could come with a good argument the next day. Okay. Yeah. Except that. A great argument, but just defoe, that someone is Robert not arrive by doesn't mean anything to me so I don't know it's hard. It's a little hard. You know sometimes something something like that. Things like that Landon people you know on just regular people just a regular person not even going to hide. You'RE NOT GONNA try to pretend that I'm a profit or anything like that. No, I am Yale artists. This is the story, but there's also you know the spiritual practices practice instruction was to create vessels for the divine and this does. The other question is you know it's very hard to you have taught art. You can. Try and you know give. Doing. It's not complicated I. Mean it's available to anyone. why it hasn't happened I mean that's something people ask me is that that happened in variations of that have happened. But it didn't take them far enough because the question is not the god God is an obstruction. The question is human relations. and. It didn't go past. You Know There's May feminization of the God language but not. That switch of the human relationship that's the where it's happening. In that's what we've done. Thank you so much Ao Kendrick for joining us hasn't been a fantastic conversation. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I wish I could talk for another ten hours which to plow into. Yes another ten. It'd be awesome. Who knows we'll see. We'll see when the next good opportunity is to have you back on. We'd love to have more of these conversations. Thank you so much and thank you to all of you out there for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode as a reminder like Dan mentioned at the top. You can learn more about this project about this Torah top project at Bait. Torre TA DOT Org. THAT'S BE I. T. T. O. R. T. A. H. DOT Org. You can learn more about you and more about the project all sorts, good stuff, and you can contact her and learn what Europe can be in this project moving forward because like she said, this is a collective effort. So thank you for listening. Again, we want to close out this episode in the same. Way that we always do encouraging you to be in touch with us, and there are a wide variety of ways for you to do that. I had to our facebook page duties among bound second, you can hit us up on twitter or on instagram also, Judaism unbound thirty can go to our website racism amount, dot com, and last at least you can hit us up your email at Dan. Judaism unbound dot. com. Or LEXI JUDAISM UNBOUND DOT COM. The last because we like to make is that we really deeply appreciate any amount of financial donation that you can send our way and you can do that via Judaism unbound dot com slash donate on either a monthly recurring basis or just as a one time gift. So thank you so much for listening and with that this has been. Judaism about.

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Moses, Israel, & The Sneh Tree  Tree of Life E6

The Bible Project

1:07:39 hr | 1 year ago

Moses, Israel, & The Sneh Tree Tree of Life E6

"Hey this is tim at the Bible Project and welcome to the Bible Project. PODCAST if you've been tracking with this series eerie is on the tree of life. You'll know that we are following the theme of trees on high places throughout the storyline of the Bible. Today we are going to arrive at a really interesting interesting set of stories. About Moses Moses had some really important moments in front of trees especially by bodies of water or on high places We're going to these today. The first is the story of Moses and what has come in English to be called the story of the burning Bush Bush and we're going to explore why that translation doesn't quite capture the whole meaning and significance of what is burning tree. Bush is all about the second story. We're GONNA look at is one of these odd short stories in the Bible It's an exodus chapter fifteen after the Israelites. Escaped from slavery in Egypt. They're wandering the wilderness internist looking for water and they find this pool of water that they can't trink from because it's a bitter and so what happens. Moses saves the people by tossing a tree into the pool. This strange little story is full of meaning when you see it in light of the bigger design pattern of trees in the Bible. We're GONNA explore all of this and even more on today's episode to thanks for joining us here. YELP we're talking about trees and we are going to talk about Moses and how he is connected to this theme yeah of recurring a design pattern motif. Yes of trees on high places but actually more specifically specifically the high place being Where humanity and God while together? Yeah and the tree. Yeah being Two trees to truly create a a plot tension between them. Yeah how're you going to live in this high. A place with God Are you going to take his life. God brought you up here to become as eternal partner new in ruling creation. Are you going to eat of the tree of life Live live by his wisdom in his presence. Eat of the tree of knowing good and bad sees wisdom on your own terms. One tree leads to return alive. One tree leads is to death. An God kicks exiles the humans because if they also eat of the tree of life This death will become yeah eternal attornal attornal death bad news. You know it's interesting that if you opened the Bible thinking the Bible is about how do I get to heaven when I die is very different. It's saying God created Youtube rule with me on earth forever but you're going to die Because you're doing here on terms. Yeah but I want you to the birth. Yeah that's not how to heaven. It's how do I get to this. Yeah this vocational calling yeah of ruling yet the earth with God that's right forever over and all of a sudden revelation twenty one twenty two pop into focus an which is well the last sentence of the biblical narrative as and they ruled with God forever and ever in in there in the new Eden. which is the new Jerusalem which is the new creation all those images are okay correct? Yeah so that was a pause MC narrative that's right that was the cosmic because this is Mandy in its infancy. Let's see yeah innocence. Yeah with a choice before any bad choice has been made. Everything is good Now death enters the picture. Relationships are Yeah Yeah I did. Humans are doing well. God warned he said eating from the retrieve known good bad would result in death and with the human start doing outside of the garden killing each other. God is not the first one to bring about anybody's death. Humans are yeah hating each other fighting each other taking wisdom on her own terms yeah participating in in building human structures that participate in corrupt spiritual powers and that are also in rebellion resulting in widespread violence violence in the building of Lameck city. Yes this isn't just our choice. It was a choice that was connected to this. Cosmic is make rebellion cosmic rebellion choice. which we haven't been talking about? Yeah so God tells them luck. There's going to be a seed of the woman off spring. Bring a human. Yes yes will. He'll deal with the massive made. That's right over undo it. He'll undo it. He'll overcome the agents of evil at source. You won't be able to do that. You're stuck now with that choice. That's right but someone will come and undo it for you and wild doing that. Yeah in the doing that. Yeah we'll suffer the consequence. Yeah of of the choices. Well yeah he'll suffer along with Adam uneven even all their children of of Coming under the power and death power of the snake being bitten by it but paradoxically that being bit by the snake will be his way of overcoming it which is something Adam and Eve did not do so the rest of the biblical narrative. You're thinking humans need to get back MHM to the high place that moment back to presence with God eating of the tree of life totally in connection with him trusting his wisdom mhm for what is good and bad and to do that. It's going to require some sort of sacrifice and that whole idea the As they wait that yeah. There is the practice of sacrificing animals. Yeah which we know later is all connected to this of like getting back to the high place the holy of holies the hot spot. Yeah where the tree of life is God's presences to do that you sacrifice an animal to go in and it's a substitute that's right. So Noah is given a choice connected to another tree about whether he will build an ark he's righteous blameless. God wants to preserve the future of the seat of the woman threw him. He makes the right choice at that. Tree doesn't eat of the tree of good and bad. No he hands off off and in so doing he builds the vehicle of salvation with patry. That land that wouldn't vehicle of salvation. He turns the tree of testing into the vehicle of salvation which floats on the waters of divine justice and lands atop Peru a new Eden Or. I'm waxing poetic. And then he takes the wood of that arc tree and offers not himself but a sacrifice he turns the the tree into an altar. And that's the image we see in the temple. Moving Ford is don't walk. Paltrow good no good and bad to the holy police. Yeah you walk by by alter the trying to make a sacrifice and so now parallel image of being in a high place of where God and humans have lived in rural together and its original design was the tree of life in the treatment. Getting bad. Now you've got the taste of it. Let's get back to that And you get to the tree of life you are not eating of the tree to get there but then you make a sacrifice on the tree. Yeah to deal with the fact that the mess has already been made correct and by doing that. You actually do get to participate. In God's life you can just start to enjoy God's life not in the eternal sense that too but in your own mortal narrative have you. You've experienced a fleeting glimpse of the tree of life. Yeah Yeah and somehow by Abram doing this and he gets it's a glimpse of that life in the rescue of his son Yoann and then he ends up becoming this great family. Yeah but but the whole point of that was because he wants to get humans back to eternal life and this family is going to participate that in some significant efficient way. 'cause still going to be a seed from this family who is going to deal with the cosmic evil correct. It's been unleashed and do do it through sacrificing himself The so so mattis others. The story moves forward. Family multiplies And through a whole bunch of episodes we don't have time to explore the story of Isaac Story of Jacob's story Joseph assist the sin of Abraham's family they replay the sins of the fathers in. Atlanta's them exile down in Egypt and that's where the book book of Exodus Begins. Exodus begins by saying I sentences. Israel in exile mirroring Adam and Eve humanity in exile and and yet in their exile. The sons of Israel were fruitful and we're multiplying in the land of their exhaustive tests. That's how the book of Exodus Begins. However that fruitful multiplication of immigrants looks to Pharaoh like a threat in yeah and so he begins to kill them off and he he had three attempts to destroy them? The third attempt is to start throwing all the baby boys into the waters of the Nile. And here we are introduced to a new woah figure exodus chapter two XS chapter two now. A man from the house of Levi went and took a daughter of Levi and the woman conceived and Borresen and this is all before the house of Levi had the import of being priests correct correct. It'll be important. -portant the Moses and his brother Erin Arlene fights because they're going to found the priesthood but yes they're just before the priesthood exists as such but the reason why the narrative telling us there from the House of Levi because he knows words. This is the origin story of the of the priestly line. Yeah so to access to verse. Here's to the woman conceived and bore son. Oh we've got a seat of the one on the way. And when she saw that he was good oh she hid him for three months but Wednesday when someone see something good. They're about do something bad. That's right unless this is an inversion story. Okay but when she could hide him no longer. She got in Arc of reeds to Goma the same word that Noah Built Yup the word arc appears to times in the Hebrew Bible. It's the Tevita of Gopher would he builds and then the word architectures right here in interaction and most survivors a caveat Goma. Math Noah builds a Gopher what's that in Hebrew Gopher Gopher this trend gopher Moses's mom I'm get say Tacoma. And she covered it inside and out with tar and pitch when no against the commands he to make the Tavon doc gopher he covers it with yeah he covers it with With a pitch inside and out then she put the child another design pattern now. They're design pattern. She she put the child into a and set it among the read by the Bank of the Nile. So the waters of death. There's all these babies drowning because affairs evil but here here is one seed placed in an arc into the same waters of death. But he is saved and in him will be the salvation of the whole family is the not so. He floats into barrels. House he grows up and He somehow still knows that. He's an Israelite because he goes out one day to look upon his brothers and he see is an Egyptian slave master beating in his roy slave so he murders that Egyptian when Ferro hears about it he's angry. He wants to kill Moses Moses Fleas into the wilderness his own exile Yep. He's an exile from Israel exile place place of his family's exile exile exile inception. Yeah Yeah Oh yeah that's right. Yeah totally excess three now now. Moses was passed during the flock of jethro his father in law who was the priest of median. We skip that story. But it's cool story. And he led the flock to Ooh near to the West in the Wilderness and came to horror of which is the Hebrew word for dry place. The mountain of Elohim. Oh his flock doc wandered up to a high place. This is the mountain. That's GONNA feature in the rest of the Torah now. The Angel of Galway became visible became C -able MHM to him in blazing fire from the midst of a sin. Sin Not an. It's not nate. It's a type of eight. It's type of tree. But it's a scenario tree snack. Oh Okay Cena Sinai. Yeah okay. Yeah so this is the only time the species species of tree. Bush isn't appears in the Hebrew Bible and it's spelled with the same root letters as the word Sinai. Yeah so he's that Horev Oreb the mountain of God. That's the mount was called Sinai but the mountains called the mountainous part of the mountainous called by two names in the Hebrew. Bible Whore Ebb and Sinai Here both are used one as explicitly horrib- and then Sinai's here with a word whereas a word play on the snap. And so Moses looked and behold the CENA was burning with fire but the Sanaa eh was not consumed so you have a Cena. What is the fire? The fire is the presence of the holy one in the tree A wholly divine presence sitting in a tree through supposed to be thinking is on a mountain of God yet. There's a type of tree. Yeah it's not called an AIDS but MHM but probably because it's trying to remind you that this is going to be Sinai. It's called the tree with the word Sinai. Yeah it's burning because of God's presence yeah appears when Lord which which. Yeah that's right it's the human y'all it figure who always appears on thrown. Yeah okay that's right so it's a type of tree of life. This is where this is going to end in. The last chapter of the book of Exodus is with this glorious fiery presents taking up residence in the holy of holies Tabernacle the same exact divine presence in the same visible form. Yeah we'll take up residence. It's in the holy of holies are so which is a representation of the high place on on Eden so this is how design patterns work this becomes a like a retro commentary. Terry you're supposed to now go back to the Eden Story and be like. Wow yeah the tree. The tree of life was where they would meet God and participate dissipation as eternal life. Now there was no fire in the tree of life. Yeah mentioned but now the ear Godsey moments joining fire. We're supposed to kind of merge bridge them together in our imagination and see them as reflect just like the two lines of of Biblical poetry like an airline and be line Sydney out the alien is the Eden Story and now the B. Line is like Moses here God it's about the tree of life on fire. Yeah totally being consumed but not being consumed. That's cool image. It is a cool image. So Moses said I must turn aside side now in see this marvellous site why the Bush is not burned up. When your way saw that he turned aside to look God called hauled him from the midst of the Cena Sang Moshe Moshe and Moshe said in an e book here him that this is how the story of Abraham Isaac Begin came after these things that God tested Moses? God said excuse me God does. It came about after these things the God tested Abraham Abraham God said to Abraham Abraham Abraham Abraham said in any. Here I am connecting that story to you yes. Yeah when's the last time I'm somebody was called to go to a mountain or was up on a mountain and God repeated their name twice and they said Hen amy that happens one time it one other time with Abraham called the go up and sacrifice his son for his own sentence. Now here's a new Noah going up to a mountain of God and he's talking like Abraham he's meeting God the Way God made Abraham on Mt Maria So do you see now. All the three narratives of high places with Trees Eden Mount Era. Mt Maria are all being hyperlinked. Here in this in the scene Yeah they're all supposed to come together in your imagination care. Then God said. Don't come don't draw near to hear that's priestly language bridge you're in the holy of holies new you're approaching it you just approach the holy of holies don't draw near take your sandals off your feet he got down and dirt you're on your feet from outside their shepherding full yeah so leave the signs of the world death out there you and come on into here for the place on what you're standing is holy space so he just walked into the holy of holies. This is the voice he's just walked in to the and he's the son of Levi which is what life is to being in the holy exactly. The tree of life is the holy the holy of holies He said I'm I am the God of your father. God of Abraham Isaac Jacob and what is the normal human response when they wake up were discovered. They're standing in the midst of that space In he hit his face for he was afraid to look at okay so so a new Noah just walked in to Eden Eden Eden place but known as. We're not uneaten some other place on dry land but he did discover this eden spot dislike. Jacob was in a field near near Bethel and he woke up. And that's Eden spot. Here's Moses okay. So we have new. Adam knew Noah and Abraham Abraham called upon here Moses Moses in any here I am when God called Abraham it was to go sacrifices son at this place right at the high place. So we're supposed to then in our minds go back and compare each narrative car. What do I anticipate will happen on this Eden spot test test? There's GonNa be some kind of test it's gonNA involve somebody having to make a choice related to all those other stories. What are you gonNA do Hagan decide? What's good and bad? Yeah at the end. Yeah God's GonNa Give Command. Are you going to participate in my desire to use his family to to Rescue trite the world. I want to bring people into my presence so that their transformed become my representatives and rulers in the world however to draw near. You'RE GONNA have to make a choice. Will you trust my wisdom and command or are you gonNA do things around way this very spot his GonNa host that narrative pattern yet once again. That's what all these patterns or settings up to expect it and look at verse ten of Chapter Three therefore therefore come. Now I'm GonNa send you to Farah so that you may bring my people. The Sons of Israel out of Egypt and Moses said to God our who am I that I should go to Pharaoh that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt and God said I will be with you and this will be the sign that I'm the one who sent you when you bring the people out of Egypt. y'All shall worship Elohim right here at the spot where you are in other words. He's GonNa Send Moses to liberate the people and then what Moses just experienced right here He's now to bring all of the people so that they can experience what he just. I experienced it setting up now. This is a design pattern for people to undergo Moses just underwent well all the people are supposed to undergo everyone's I entered the holy of holies. The whole nation will be will come up here and meet me here dislike you did and why is it. Call it a sign This will be the sign up because Moses is doubting that he's the one he he brings up five objections of like who am I. I'm not very good at speaking. Please send and somebody else and so God finally says Listen Kit. Trust me here come here and watch. It'll be a replay of what you disappeareance te when you have a sign fine it's a foretaste of the ultimate real thing so the sign here is more of a promise correct. It's a really interesting sign because it's usually signs come in the moment. Yes this is not a sign in the moment this is assigned. Say if you trust me when you and you leave the people here as a sign you will see in the future. You'll see a sign in the future that will will vindicate Your Trust. Howard callers confirmation? Yeah it's a it's a unique we use of the word sign. Okay so okay so think this narrative just told me that what what Moses just went through is what all of the people are going to go through so what happens you go back into the story and you have Israel enslaved farrow and then You know the ten plagues and then Israel is brought through the waters of death. Just like Muss and then Israel is brought through the Wilderness and then Israel is brought to the mountain to meet with God. So it's as if Moses in exodus two and three in his own personal narrative have just anticipated the narrative of all of the people. Who are enslaved in Egypt? Go through the waters of death through the Wilderness into meet God at the exact same spot. It's is like exodus. One through four is the exodus story in a nutshell in the life of one person. Who's the lead hand? It's a design pattern riffing off of totally short both ducal authors did packing and packing it in okay. So that's just set up for the Sinai Story. Yeah because when they get Sinai they don't go up the mountain correct. Let's pause real quick here after the deliverance. Through the waters of the Sea Israel goes into the desert just like Moses did But before they get to the mountain they have an incident Exodus fifteen verse twenty two. It's a Moses is is rescued Yep through Moses God's rescued Israel now. They've passed through the waters there in the Wilderness in the wilderness by Yeah A- and this happens XS fifty in verse twenty two. Then Moses let Israel from the Red Sea I mean we're literally we're walking away from the shoreline of the got. It just happened. Then they went into the wilderness of Schumer and they went three days into the wilderness and there was no water longtime from the water three days and then we face test when they came to Mata which is Hebrew word forbid her they could not drink the waters order of Mara because they were Mada so they named the place. Modern good good good but then. The people grumbled Moses. mm-hmm does the first of many grumbling narratives. And what are we going to drink. DOC is important question. What do we drink? What are we gonNA drink? You'RE GONNA die your water to said you're GONNA save us and you brought us now three days. Both long as a human can go without water. Yeah Yeah three days. Yeah Yeah not a week. He'll die within a week. Yeah so Moses cried out the hour and you always showed him a tree. The tree tree tree eights and samosas through the tree into the waters and the waters became sweet. That that is drinkable potable puttable portable there. God made for them a statute and regulation Shen. Their God tested them with a test. It turns out this was a test. So they're not at a mountain there in the Wilderness us in wilderness are about to die of thirst. They came tube and they find a spring of water. They find a pool but kick the pool represents a test are. Are they going to trust that. God could provide for them even out of these death waters bitter waters. No they don't they grumble and protest and say what it would do but Moses he trusts he thinks that God can provide life for them even in this place of death and cried out alert alert. He cries out to Ya. That's the class is a preterm for intercession here and plea for God's help you so Moses. Not Unlike the people he cries cries out to the last people grumble yet. But Moses inter-city people don't trust God they grumble now you can. I just say yeah I empathize with these people of course totally but at the same time we have to remember. Yeah they just were. Miraculously Wrench Jess J just witnessed. This is the first story after the insane through the insane provision from God. Yes and what any person would do after being delivered through. The waters of the sea is say. y'All way has power over water eh. But take three days without water totally and that starts to fade back into a little bit and you start to go and that's the point and that's the point. Yeah that's exactly the point. But Moses trusts so he cries out to God and what is God do. He shows him a tree. And and then says this tree will become the agent of salvation to turn the waters of death into waters of life trees becoming salvation like the arc just like the Arc arc went into the waters. This story presents itself to the reader as a riddle. Yeah it is because I've read the story and I'm just like okay. It's a Richard. These are these stories. They're usually very short Their puzzling it's hard even understand. Who's doing or saying what and they seem bizarre and this is the biblical authors wave winking at US and saying dear reader follow the design patterns? do Psalm. One take a long walk and you'll start to see what we're inviting you read. This story wasn't Sri it was branch. Let's see what I think it's branch got you showed a piece of wood says anti visas a piece of wood. Whatever reason I have the image of a branch like when I've heard the story before I was at the V has log new American standard has tree three? Yeah it is. Yeah so let's keep going you're it gets better So the whole point now is this was a test verse. Twenty five tells us here he thing was a test. And only Moses passes the test people grumble and the tree becomes uh-huh the vehicle goes the tree goes into the water becomes the vehicle turning death into life and there he made for them a statute and regulation relation which is Covenant Law Vocabulary but the Covenant hasn't even media assets foreshadowing foreshadowing it. So what's the test before before the covenants been made what is the test of their covenant relationship for Provision Verse Twenty. Six God said if you will listen listen to the voice of Galway your God and do what is right is much more yes if you will chamois to his commandments. Keep all his statutes. I will put none of of the diseases that I've put on the Japan's on you for I alway your healer and that's called a statute a statute and regulation. This is remember. How this this was in the law series? There's that story of after Abraham passes his test amount Maria and offers up Isaac and then God God gives Isaac back later in the book of Genesis. God recalls back to that moment and says in that moment Abraham kept all of my laws and statutes statutes and regulations before fibber. It's using the the vocabulary of the laws of the Covenant from Mount Sinai and saying Abraham Damn kept the laws of the Covenant by listening to God's voice and obeying it's a way for the biblical author To show you that this story is connected. Did yeah to these other guys. Yeah what does God really after in the Covenant Relationship Just people who listened to his voice which which when you listen to the voice. You're making the right choice when you stand before the tree So here's Israel before another tree and Moses passed the test but the people fail and and so God says listen. This is the test that I'm inviting you into. Will you please. Just listen. Listen to my voice. If you do that will be listening to the Commandments. And regulations. So Moses by interceding was listening to the voice Moses Yeah. He's a contrast to the people. The People Grumble to Moses. But Moses cries out your way for Salvation Shen and this might be just per se much site but listening to the voice is connected to obeying a command right correct. What's the command here that they're not obeying? Oh yeah got it. They're just worried that they're going to die. Yeah that's right so you're right. It's in the Senate. It's about faith faith and trust You're right the the command would be to Have Faith and trust because the narrative is the came into the wilderness. There was no water. They finally found water. But it's water of death and then what they grumble instead of crying out to your way. So y'all way creator of Heaven Heaven and Earth and the seas turn this water into give us give us all right. Provide US water of salvation. The water of life here know what they say is what are we going to drink. They grumble get angry. But Moses in contrast cries out Jawa for salvation narrative seemed cleaner to me If the story we went they found the water. God said put the tree in the water and they're like whatever Oh sure show show show just WANNA go back. I get it because now they're not listening to the voice. Take the command correct correct. You're right so the narrative is designed. The test becomes back at the moment when they grumbled. They're failing the test when they grumble the test becomes win. We're out here with no resources. Are we going to trust. The owls can provide for us or not and they're grumbling is his failing a test. These tests are hard core man. Oh yeah they are Abrahams task. Yes yes totally. We sacrificed first son. This test you've got to trust me after three days with no water. Yeah yeah now. You're in front of a pool of water. You can't drink yet. You can still get trust me. I would have failed that test. Yeah these are easy test. No they're not no they're not I'm with you. I'm with them. But Moses passes the test on their behalf thank you sure. This is setting up the role of Moses in the narrative on the mountain so he does trust God and God rescues the people through tree thrown into the waters. Then he says listen guys us. We're GONNA do this test again. He doesn't them. There's going to be more chances. I twenty six. If you will listen to my voice. Then I'm going to save you from death and evil evil. I'm your healer Roman attest you again. I'm just going to be about going thirsty one and done here. You're going to be multiple tests. I want you to be. My representatives is to the nation's then after Moses intercedes and saves the people what's their next stop I twenty seven. They came to oak trees Come to a whole grove of trees and there were twelve fountains of water seventy palm trees and so they camp under the trees. He's by the waters. Twelve and seventy. Yeah come now come now. Yeah this little Eden spot right here. It's a little Aden spots right. Water Water under trees. Yeah the number twelve and seventies interesting because that's foreshadowing. Yeah twelve tribes right. Yeah they are the twelve tribes now the the twelve tribes so they find a water of life for each try. Louis Bringham life for each tribe tribe gets there and seventy he. is how many descendants of Jacob went down into Egypt at the end of the the front they went from the seventy with Jacob into the twelve tribe. So it saying there's enough for everyone here. Yeah to eat in forever. Yeah Yeah. It's the equivalent of Eden and equivalent of in Solomon's reign. Everyone got got their own vine and fig tree. It's interesting how God says I'm GonNa be testing you more. Yeah but here let me give you a little eaton. That's right and in this story story. who were what passed the test? The gave them the gateway into the Little Aden Moses on their happened well stories five verses. Oh Yeah so easy. Skip over because realistic nick. That's right weird random story. How did that make it in the Bible early? Let's just keep going. Yeah so this story is put here as a as a riddle to invite. Invite the reader to meditate the link story into design patterns through the key repeated words and then all of a sudden. You Find Yourself in five verses you've replayed the story of the whole Bible in five versus humans life and death choice tested at a tree. They fail but one intercedes is on their behalf and leads them to a new Eden. And you're like oh sweet well the seed of the woman. This is what you mean. By literary genius Yes totally that that this is what I'm talking about. The whole Bible like this every paragraph. That's my blowing. I really these are the moments where I'm dislike. I is this brilliant. Humans who right brilliant literature. I think this is a human literary art form. supercharged landed line at its peak. I think I can't say this evidence. Silence of the Inspiration Short divine and human partnership scriptures but when The more years I spend seeing how intricately every word word is crafted in sequence Adam at a minimum it is human literary genius. Yeah Yeah Toy. And a maximum It's an inspired gift of God to help us. Yeah know how to choose wisely totally. Yeah and that's right. Brace eternal in life yeah So let's Take our next step. Then into this whole story watching it played out on a macro level at Mount Mount Sinai host test Okay we can spend a lot more time for what happened to Mount Sinai but for the purpose of the video. I think we can do the pieces pretty quick chapter. Nineteen Moses leads the people to Mount Sinai the word Seni- appears for the first time in Exodus Exodus nineteen to now. It's not called Mount Sinai. Well go go horev. Yeah horror of the album is like Oh yeah totally and then it will go back and forth between sign a horrid throughout the rest of the Torah but bright here exits nineteen become to the place. We're at the Synod Bush. We're God said the people were GonNA come. And then the third month after the sons of Israel came out of out of Egypt on that day they came to the Wilderness S. of Sinai where Moses God at the snap so the singing of any significance of that is the tree at the top of this mountain is not going to be mentioned and in the narrative and again but the mountains now called the tree. The mountain is called by the name of that tree and I meant to imagine tree. Not at the top of the mountain for every scene. When Moses goes up there so the famous thing has got says again to the people you're going to be a kingdom of priests priest of the nation's? Yeah if you listen listen to my voice listen listen yet. Most so God shows up in the fire and cloud just like he did the Moses on on top of the mountain. He's doing for all the people what he did for. Moses little grander but more grand not just fire and Bush. The Bush lighting up the whole whole mountain with the storm cloud the people signnow thunder and lightning in the sound of the trumpet and the Mountain Smoking and and the people sought and they trembled and stood at a distance and they said to Moses You speak to US and Willison. We'll listen to your the voice but don't let God speak to us because he's going to kill us will die. It looks dangerous dangerous. So this is the trick right. Moses thought thought he was going to die he was afraid so he hid his face and he was freaked out but he didn't die. Yeah he was transformed by that can even but even he was scared but he plus scared and rightfully so right. Yeah Yeah you're in the presence of some power yeah and we know it is interesting Maybe go for this but eating of the tree of life can be a curse it can actually like yeah. Well let's say this. Do you remember the tree of life. Represents God's eternal power in life and glory in being eaten by a mortal dirt creature can change you. Yeah if for a human into exist as an eternal partner of God the we're GonNa need some kind of upgrade. Yeah of the hardware. Yeah it might not be looks unpleasant. Plus what if it is unpleasant with the burning Bush represents is lying. Well it's going to consume me like that Bush. I'm now here in the presence of my creator is telling me to come close house to fire consumed a rush but it it's going to mean the end of the version of me that I know that I'm familiar with I executive consumed soon by this fire. Yeah do odds like no no. No this is career of got the next thing for you. And Moses like I'm going to stick with the version of me that I I want to upgrade you totally so this and this is what the people are saying right here They see the divine glory and they say we don't want to go near so they say Moses you've got you've been up there so you go on our behalf and will listen to you if you tell us what God says. But we don't want to go up there and meet and talk doc with God and then look what Moses says says. Don't be afraid God has come in order to test you You test your test. He's come come to test you in order that the fear of him might remain with. You saw that you don't send so. Moses went up to the mountain. He faced the fear and he ended up in the holy of holies and it didn't kill him it transformed him he brings the people to the foot of the mountain. Is the burning Bush Times a gazillion in terms of like the light show and hand. The people are called to go up and they won't go up with Moses and Moses. No you guys. This is the test it God doesn't want to kill you. He wants you to become his kingdom of priests to the nations and they say no they say no they. Don't pass the test in order that you may fear him Yeah which is yeah. That's from Garden Vocabulary Garden of Eden. Yeah and it's just wisdom vocabulary correct the fear of the Lord. Yeah yeah the right so that you don't sin so you can know so how to live in a human way. He truly human way that doesn't lead to violence and destruction. Yeah Yeah when you get home to the tree tree of life now that the narrow developed you realize it's a fearful thing to take from the tree of last. What I was just thinking about was was that in any way for Adam and Eve can can you go back and go? Yeah right tree of life intense in some way kind of like. I'll take for this this other one. This other one looks a little more chill. Yeah that one's on fire commit. I think that's how the design patterns are meant to make our imaginations go back and ponder. That's interesting Like I trust in God and his presence but what will happen to me. Yeah will I be okay. I'd be okay. Yeah so now all of a sudden it's not taking taking from the tree of knowing good and bad that is the test. It's will you enter into the presence of the tree of life. That's the test right. The test is will the Israelites. Go Up like Moses to stand with him in the divine presence which was the first combined the tree and now it's God has come in order to test you. What's the test? Are you gonNA come up up instead before the tree of life and being presence. That's the test. Now that makes sense it does. I don't know if I flip Rashid it. Oh well it's just that win design patterns work. It's never a full repeat the same concepts in an inverted relationships. Attest Abram was don't eat of the tree of knowing good and bad on your own terms and then but listen to my voice and obey. The test wasn't eat of the tree of of life for being my presence. Correct in Eden. It was eat of the tree of life. Don't eat from that tree so the test is don't eat of the tree. The test is don't eat from that other tree. The test here is my presence. Come up to the burning tree right to be in God's presence and the tests are you gonNA come up or you're not gonNA come up but this is a unique calling. This isn't a calling for every human. This was Oh sure calling for a people that God wanted. We're getting cut looking pretty cosmic here terms of up to that cosmic story one nation Asian becoming God's royal priests of the other nation. I'm the reason why I'm saying that is because Before the narrative logic is God's protecting you from that tree. Sorry Oh sure so. What's he doing on humans to come in? Yeah and now partake Is Is it a trick or is it an actual invitation. It seems like it's actual invitation. It's because he's do something unique here. I was like an exception. This seems like an exception is what I'm saying. Hold on I guess what I'm saying is the test has switch which trees here right Bush. The burning celebre shoe is the tree of life here. It's where you meet God and are transformed. That's the tree that the test now relates to write. You GonNa come up to God. So how's it a trick I would wonder if it was a trick because if I knew the story of Adam and Eve I've yes and I'm realizing what's happening here I would go. Hey God if I eat of the tree yeah I will have eternal death. Oh I understand. You're protecting us from this tree. I see right Oh got it. They're not eating from the tree of life. This isn't the tree of life. This is their tree of life life but it is the present. Oh I understand yes yes. It is the tree of liner stand but for I think for them to eat from the tree of life means to take on the job that what God wants to give yes and I think that's what I see. This is a unique falling for unique people. Thanks okay let's let's get. We're just trying to understand how your process okay analogy. Yeah because my expectation of this point is like no. No No. Don't do that. We need the person to I. I do away with evil. Yeah because you go. And being God's presence remember eating of the tree of life on the mountain I under God's protecting us from that until Oh this is all dealt with yeah got it and now we've got the story with God saying I'm going to deal with it and deal with it through you guys so I'm inviting you back in. This feels like an exception. I see yes. It's the chosen family chosen family. It's the election idealization Motif of chosen. I'm going to do something unique with you so that you can. Dan Mediate my purposes out to the nations and You chosen for the money but this is unique. Yes he's not doing this with any other nation and and so moving on the test is will you listen to me Even though everything inside of you saying that's dangerous yet that's dangerous. I'm I'M GONNA die. Quebec will you trust me. The my wisdom is greater. Yeah yeah so my purposes. Now the the test of trusting God's wisdom he's actually MHM eating of the tree four. Yeah that's that was the correct thing that they got to do. Correct you got. That's the next step in the story calming the list of Covenant Commands that God asked him to listen to and only Moses goes up to receive give them the people say. We don't want to go up you go up. Moses Moses goes up and he's up there at the cemetery and he gets these Sandra the is the the you know the Commands of the Covenant and the tablets represent. He brings them down and says these are the terms of the Covenant and the people say we will listen and we will do them the first two. Here's God's wisdom free. Yeah here's God's was the first two covenants I am. y'All way no other God created heaven and earth and no other. God rescued you. You're out of Egypt. Don't represent me with vinyls here You didn't see any image up on the mountain in the cloud I'm not a tree. I'm not an animal I'm not a star you. I'm the maker of all things Said don't do that okay. People say yes deal SOMOZA SAYS EXODUS. Twenty four okay. You're onboard. I'm GonNa go tell God that you WanNa get married you're married you said yes and solicit gum seal the deal. Moses goes up forty days go by and then comes the story of the Golden Calf For days go by. Yeah and they're like where's Moses. Yes what are we doing here. Yes yeah are we protected. Are we safe exist. Thirty to the win. The people saw that Moses embarrassed them delaying delaying. It's the it's the word caused shame. Let's not it gets translated delayed. Its Youth Bouchon shoe. They were embarrassed embarrassed about his not coming down from the mountain leaving US hanging. Yeah it's also The last time the word was used was And they were naked and there was us now. Bush shame so they were ashamed by Moses delaying. Meaning where where is this ridiculous. Yeah we were just about to get married and a forty days as he's up there what's he doing. The people assembled around Erin and they say Here let's make an elohim that will lead us as for this Moses right the man who brought us up the land of Egypt we don't have we have no idea what happened to him He's gone give us. Let's make an elohim and obviously the violating the first I command the covenant. Youth the first idol in the biblical story is happening at the foot of a high place So the real high place is Moses. A New Adam up there at the tree meeting with God's presence here at the foot of that real high place they eh make of like a Fault Eden they have this party. They're having rich food and drink and they're playing and seeing singing and dancing but they're not up in the real eden they're creating a false and they're creating a fault Scott Down at the Switzerland contrast the really didn't up top here. They're creating a false cops. God and Faulty Eden Down Below this important for the what the meaning of idolatry and the high places are in the rest of the story of Israel. And so we'll get to. That will bring it all together. Moses is up on the mountain gods says look the people are doing down there. I'm being I'm going to destroy them. Leave me alone. We've talked about. This guy says leave me alone. And Moses proceeds to not leave God He tells God to change his decision about the people by remaining consistent to his promises to Abraham and God says good. That's what I'll do then I'll get us down an excess thirty two. The end of the Chapter Verse Thirty on the Next Day. Moses said to the people y'all have committed a great sin. They failed the test. You big time big time with with a flourish you talk possess with Jasmine. The whole thing was you're under this test so that you don't send they've failed the test. You've committed a great sin so now I m going up Moses going to go up the mountain and perhaps I can make atonement for your sin. He's going to go up in tone for their since sacrifice. What yeah so? Think of all the design patterns Noah Abraham. Perhaps I can make atonement for sin. So Moses returned to Ya and said Oh this people has committed a great sin. They've made a god of gold for themselves. So what we're ready for him to do is to get out animal drive. Just like Noah and then verse thirty two but now if you will please forgive their sin but if if you're not kill me Blog meows from the book. That you've written. He offers himself he offers himself. That's what we're looking for genesis. Three fifteen he offers himself this. This moment is so important for the story. Line on of the design pattern of the wounded. Victor he gives us. He gives his own life in the place of the people as a sacrifice of atonement. And what's interesting Galloway. Yaohua says you don't have to do that. Yeah he doesn't make him we had he says is the one who has sinned against me. That's the one whose name all blocked out of my book. But as you go down there we supposed to go off awesome. So he isn't the one he's not the one but he man when he did he was ready to be the one the threat but he wasn't the one he's not the one now. This is a part of the complex portrait of Moses character where Moses has his own series of failures. He's already had a failure before this coq when he met God at the burning Bush had a failure that moment where he said I'M NOT GONNA go send somebody else. And it says Moses Gaga Angry at Moses and says your brother's GonNa Come Nan he'll do it in your place and you'll to stand Dan next to him and talk to them whispering here But then Moses Moses I spent work and then Moses will go on to have his own failures there's an actually in an inversion of this he's going to ask God numbers eleven to say. I don't I can't lead this people anymore. Grumbling against me and he says. Kill me if you're gonNA make me elitist people kill me now. So then. He offers his life again but for selfish purposes. Get Out of this deal. And then he has a failure at the water the rock. Yeah restricts it instead of being done to all that to say as this is one of Moses highpoint then then this is the same narrative moment where he's GonNa His face this is going to be transformed and the divine glory. So He's complex at his best. He's like a human up in the new eden his his face starts glowing he starts being transformed by the divine holy creative power of Ya in. And he's like a human giving his life for the sins of others up at the new Eden but then even he fails and the story goes on and the rest of the story of Israel is GonNa be Israel worshipping idols in the form at luxuriant green trees on top of high places. Worshiping their gods of could stun metal. And all of the high places the are the culprits of when the prophets name why Israel ends up in exile. It's going to be just replaying what happened to Mount Sinai so the high places the Israel sacrifices that appear all throughout the store to follow are just fall out from this moment right here at the story she was like in in some way creating or worshipping idols. is really connected to choosing the wisdom on your veterans veterans. It's creating your own tree of life creating tree of life Yeah make us a God who will go up for us. What more explicit way are you defining? Yeah and taking seizing things on your own terms and crafting your own tree of life threat. The threat they didn't see it that way. They actually thought they were creating a god. Yeah that right correct. Golden Calf lead us out of here. Yeah like they. Yeah so it's interesting. Humans in their own wisdom. Don't say well I'M GONNA. I'll figure this out there like we'll just find another power. He will help us. Yeah yeah here's something That can rescue us out of the Wilderness can lead. He does out of this place and we still do that as humans like we would give ourselves to other powers correct. We think we're getting our freedom but instead we're really just kind of allegiances with whatever whatever the power structure force yes this conversation's along one. That's okay but we're connecting connecting that golden calf becomes the icon moment for the whole history of Israel's idolatry in the promised land where does that idolatry take place in the narrative takes place at what the biblical narratives call the high places and every generation of Israel's kings keeps worshiping other gods at the high places the called the Bamut in Hebrew and the in particular what's called the Note the high place in Hebrew his called Bamut Jabot him when he goes and breaks off the northern tribes from the the southern tribes. This is in second kings chapter twelve. He makes a new temple and he installs to golden calves and says these are your gods of Israel who brought you up out of Egypt these presented as now replaying the sin of Golden Calf But on a grander scale and then he sets up in verse. Thirty one on houses on high places all throughout the land and brings in a new priesthood was not from the sons of Levi and then the rest of the narrative. Is You get little will descriptions of these high places and there's two things on these high places they're either called the Ashra which is the name of Canaanite fertility goddess in the polls. And and. It's got us as symbolized as a symbolic poll placed in the middle of a garden on top of tall and sometimes that poll is called in Hebrew the luxury tree boa in Hebrew. It's the it's the Anon and The word rotten on as the word like luxuriant green but it spelled with the letters of the word Eden so Eden as ion dull at Nen. And then the word rotten on the Daulat de looks like the Hebrew letter. Rish when you see this phrase in Hebrew the luxuriant tree it. It looks like you're looking at the word the Eden. But it's back. All the letters are background It's like a mixed it's perverted Eden. And so you're just read through the story and you're like Oh these false high places these faults Edens were the worshipping their own human-made trees of life and ends them in exile silence Babylon so we just brush through whole section of the Hebrew Bible for the whole point. Is You get the whole story. That Israel in a nutshell right there at the story of Mount Sinai China And so you know what but what you never get in the stories of Israel to follow his another mouth and who offers his life for the people MHM that Prophet. A prophet like Moses never never arose. What's interesting to me The new thought is when I pictured the retrieve knowing good and bad I think of it in my modern construct of I'm going to be my own king but now we're talking about idols. Titles Yeah which is saying. I'm going to give my allegiance to another power. We are creating our own salvation. The thing that we think will give give us the life that we want right. Yeah but in an ancient sankey. You're not creating another power you're just is. You're creating opportunity to worship the other power. I understand because actually thought these were real this hour in some ways. They are correct. Because what are they. These gods represent weather fertility uh-huh war metallurgy kingship fertility is sex And also the economy new fertility abundance and then kingship in war. which which we would call you know politics sex money and power so by taking of the tree of I've known good and bad I think of it as like I'm taking my freedom? I'm taking a ton of me taking things in my hands. Yeah but really what you're doing is you're here's giving your allegiance to replacing your allegiance replacing early giving your allegiance to some other power because this becomes connected now yeah to creating idols all string aisles. That's right you're giving over. Your allegiance to an idol is are like false. Idols are human made representations of of Real Divine Ideals Yeah divine ideals trusting in a different way. Yeah Not God's wisdom but another wisdom yeah of off how to get to the ideal totally that's right Yep and one of these false gods is bail. WHO's bail he's the god of of Thunder But also if you look at statues of AMIS usually carrying a mace big like Bashar. Head sceptre an thunderbolt the god of war in thunder so when I am king and I Oh like the king of Moab in the in the book of kings he sacrifices his son to cash the God God of Moab and He win then he wins a battle and then the king ago Yeah if I give I give my son over to Komo he will help crush the skulls my enemies and it creates this right. Violent cycle creates. Yeah these cycles of Human League it created narratives of how I get the good life and victory in abundance remained mine and I'll give even the life of my own sons to sacrifice my son's for the net for the preservation of my tribe and the gods look on approvingly and all of a sudden you you have a recipe for As ideology calf a specific God in mind. Oh yeah people have wondered this The the calf was. I'm afraid to say this off the top my head. I'm pretty sure it's associated with bail the cavs but where Erin says the people is these are your gods of Israel who brought you up at a land of Egypt an errand says tomorrow. We'll have a feast Iyala so this is even more tricky. They think they're worshiping outweighs. But what they're actually worshiping is of their perversion perverting. Yeah I think the fact that it's not associated with another deity makes sit. Aye Paradigm the CAN fit. They they're going to like we'll do it on our own terms. You want us to sit here and wait. Yeah for Moses come down that's right. We'll this will come come up with their own way. Yeah you're wasting scary and now I'm getting bored. Tolan yeah crazy. What's the storm on the mountain? We have another idea. I can't work with God like that. It's not manageable. Let's make something manageable. Yeah like we can understand. No and we'll take us where we want to go. This God who leads us out in the Wilderness. Like we think we're GONNA die. Every other day was trust him and crazy ways. That's crazy. They can't do that man. All this is swimming in my head. Because you've got the tree of knowing good and bad which then then becomes in some stories really an altar yet by which to to atone But then also the tree knowing good and bad also becomes these idols. Yeah that's right. By which false trees of life falls trees live. Yeah yeah well I I think for again the way thinking of how we've been able do videos in the past. Many of our videos have these cycles of patterns and we can news composition color visual devices to draw analogies between seen spray the scenes can develop just like these patterns are developing but we need need to follow one continuity if the trees are constantly Kinda taking on different forms performs and doing different things. The Clinton New ity is this. Will you trust. Yeah my wisdom. Yes be in my presence and rule with me or will you do it on your own terms correct. Yep Okay okay. Yeah that's the continuity and because you've done on your own terms and death has been league right will you also We're going to deal with that. Yeah by raising up the seed a sacrifice and the sacrifice we will get to. We'll eventually. Yeah make that sacrifice by hanging literary correct. Yep that's right. And Moses becomes the image of that you think me and he's up there on the high place at the tree talking to God and he says take my life in the place of the people. God likes the attitude. But he's not. Yeah it's not his job description yes most is not the one that becomes an image of. You've got one. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Bible Project PODCAST. We are still taking questions that you all have about about this series on the tree of life. We're going to do another question response episode during the series so if you have a question about the steam of trees in the Bible level or any of the stories that we have explored. We want to hear your questions. You could record yourself asking the question. Give us your name where you're from hopefully to keep it about twenty seconds or so and email it to us at Info at Bible Project DOT com next week. We're going to continue in the series by looking at some stories about trees in the life of David and in the book of Isaiah. I've been dwelling on this image of the tree of life being on fire in in a little bit and terrifying. Yeah Yeah Yeah and having that same thing if I eat that fruit it's GONNA burn me. That's kind of this image you've got near like you're handing me coal from the fire and put my mouth. Yes right or find because what Isaiah the announce when he sees God in the burning thrown it is. I'm a man of Impure Lips. Today's episode was produced by Dan. Gumel our theme music comes from the band tents the Bible project. Jake is a crowd funded nonprofit in Portland Oregon. We make free resources that are showing. How the Bible's a unified story leads? Jesus you guys thank you for being a part of this with us. Hi this is Eli. I'm from Oregon. Yes starting hi hi my name is Liam. I'm from orange ten talk more about you. Name is name from Oldham thanks. I is this one I watch want to the here. You know you remember that Burger Right. That's one thing music. We believe the Bible is the unified story that leads to Jesus or a a route funded project by people like we find videos. Are you know. podcast in breath as a mile walk and mm-hmm.

Aden Moses Moses Moses Moses Israel Egypt Abraham Abraham Abraham Abraha Bush Adam Noah Abraham Mount Sinai Abraham Isaac Jacob Sinai Levi Abram Abraham Abraham God Golden Calf Isaac Story Moses Gaga US Galway
Pencils & the Provision of God

She Reads Truth Podcast

54:51 min | 1 year ago

Pencils & the Provision of God

"Hello and welcome to the she reads truth. podcast where we open our bibles and talk about the beauty. Goodness and truth we find there breath. I'm your host Amanda Bible Williams and I'm your host Rachel Meyers and today. We have the privilege of being joined by our friend. And my family's pastor Scott Sauls else Scott is a champion of the word of God. He loves the WORD HE LOVES THE CHURCH. He is a cheerleader of. She reads truth in the work that we do here here. And we're just so thankful for the way he encourages us. We're always learning something from Scott and we think that you will too so let's get right to it. All right. So pencils are great is this is. This is the one the only my pastor and friend and amandas other our pastor can claim you got you can. We're all in the same family okay. We're so excited for you if you don't know him we're so excited for you guys to meet him but Scott talked to us. We're in the middle of conversation that I realized like there's a male voice that they don't know so we're noticing. That Scott has a black-wing what is it. PALOMINO PALOMINO BLACK-WING BLACK-WING and I'm asking does it. If you use only a pencil designate rub off eventually. Depends on the kind of pencil that you use. So this is really transformative to me like for Bible readers out there. which is your target audience ripe? Okay I'm going to try to offer a plug here. I've always had issues is with writing in a Bible because if I use a pen it's either going to bleed through or it's going to dent the page or maybe even ripped the page page and so somebody turned me onto the world pencils about a year and a half ago and saw going big pencil. Levanger evangelist eleven. So they're actually it's this whole world there's this whole underground pencil world right. And like the the criminal Kremlin pencils is the Palomino black wing and there are all kinds of different varieties of it but I use the soft lead version for the Bible. It's you can press a really soft right. Whatever you want and you can erase things that you regret writing later on or if you underline it run under Linux and it accidentally goes over? Wording just erase it and it doesn't are is just describing the function of pencils but even better well but there are other other comes soft pencils but Palomino Black Queen and sort of the standard. And then they've got harder lead pencils eating journal with your journaling person. So there you go. I love that. Sharpen that with like a knife or just a regular pencil show okay so the true pure is actually do use pocket knives. I don't go that far now. I just use a a sharpener. So yeah is it electric or is it like one of the ones from school. That's on the wall. Any self-respecting Pencil sharpener will not use an electric manual. Your ones so. If you're fanatic you really have to use a man evidently not self respecting our house. 'cause I I like week before school. Starts we get out the electric Pencil sharpener. My kids destroy every new pencil lose three inches on each one password kids in school. That's a whole different. Yes she ate that so well my mom always I guess she still does mom. Are you listening. Do you still use a pencil. When you write in your Bible your journals and what I loved about that is Hers would actually fade. And then she would just right over it so I could see like layers of writing which is just pretty a black wing. She wasn't but she will be soon. Because I'm going to fix that. I'm going to give her some. Okay so guys. This week at she reads truth. We are in the third week of the book in Genesis and we are reading chapters twenty through twenty eight which covers a lot of territory with all of course read this in advance. So we're prepared to. They have all kinds of conversation about it but we also have had any pre conversation. We're coming at this fresh. So what do you guys want to talk about. I want to know what Scott wants the time looking at Scott because he came in with a big grin on his face it was like I have notes. So let's see. What are we have so i? I have questions as normally. Do you have questions about these chapters. The Bible I also have feelings have emotions about specifically the the Isaac Story But yeah where do we dig in first impression of the Spanish Chapter Scott. My first impression is one of bewilderment A- and also a sigh of relief the bewilderment has to do with how utterly dysfunctional the people Are that the Bible thrusts into the center of the redemption story so for listeners. Who Don't know specifically what chapters twenty three twenty eight of Genesis cover that would be the birth of Isaac that would be the sacrifice of Isaac? We've got you know. Bringing Rebecca on his his wife Managed Bertha Jacob and Esau and the stolen blessing so that is a lot of ground to cover so boiled is fair respond. My greatest bewilderment is is that both Abraham and Isaac offered up their wives to predatory all men in order order to protect themselves. It's stunning to read that. and to feel okay with that well yeah and then to realize in the New Testament that Jesus looks back an honors. These guys in the same way that he honors Jacob and Jacob's whole life he's he's fighting for the paternal blessing even a point where he has to lie to his disabled father in order to steal a blessing. That doesn't belong long to him. And then then after his dad's gone he gets into this wrestling match with the Lord and his name changes and his life changes and he's transformed by Olympe that he carries with him for the rest of his life. And I don't know it's just remarkable to me How dysfunctional but but also how hopeful that dysfunction makes me feel because if God is going to use people like this and you could add to that the adulterous and murderous David? You could add to that the apostle Paul who was kind of a Hitler type with Christians before he when he was solid. Taurus's Peter who has house with cowardice bullying xenophobia and Rahab the prostitute whose part of Jesus lineage you can go on and on and on these are the people that God chose to shake the earth through which which gives me a ton of hope on those days where I feel kind of ashamed of myself and small small and not qualified and I think Oh my goodness God loves us so much that he put these people right in the center of the story to remind us. There's hope for us all. Yeah and when you put it that way when you list out these people in their flaws dysfunction is a nice way to put it You know like and the Hashtag movements if they had social media back then. Wow that don't want to. I'd rather not but it's true in just that in you used 'em the word transformation there somewhere and nothing that's it like. How do we get to the New Testament where we look back in the hall of faith you know and hear these names and it is a relationship with God is transformative and it's based so so little not at all on on what we bring to the table and I like I mean to use the word transformative? It is not I mean there is an old has gone in. The new has come but there is an ongoing transformation. Mation us that it's not like well. This is how I used to be a now. Yes but also a constant need for constant an ongoing in life failing and falling short. Yeah and when you talk about hashtags and social media and how are flaws are just you know flaunted by others it really to be in process feels like something I. It's a grace that we don't often give to each other. You know like we forget that sanctification is a thing that's happening it's like no. We want everyone to behave the way that we want them to. In and for reason I mean there are sure sin a sin then but often impacts victims. Yeah Yeah and until all of that is there is AH holding accountable. But do we allow for transformation and grace and it's a hard conversation I mean I can just. I can hear everyone scores. It's three minutes now. I wonder about Sarah to Abraham's wife and shows a wound right. She's she's Barron She can't have children which which in those days there was sort of a mark on you. That was that was a source of shame for a lot of women because their identity marker was was their children and especially the number of sons that they'd had and you know she's Barron and and so at some point she decides. I'm going to take matters into my own hands. God's not giving me children children and so she essentially demands that that Abraham give her children through Hagar one of her servants and and it happens and she's only bitter and and then you think about Hagar who is this woman who's kind of forced into to this situation and then she's given a child and then when God gives us Sarah. And Abraham a child at age one hundred you imagine all of the Sudden Sudden Sarah Decides Okay Away with Hagar Away with ish mile and treats them both with incredible contempt. Yeah and injustice. And it's a problem that she caused and that she created and yet she treats them with such contempt. And income's God you know taking care of everybody. Hey Gresh Mel included you know the Merciful God but I mean I as I read these chapters one one other thing that pops out as how the only constant in the narrative of scripture has got Abraham has this heroic moment of faith where he obeys God to the uppermost like he does essentially what God would later do offers up his own son because God has called them to do that and of course God comes into the rescue and affirms his faith turns him into into the father of all nations and the father of all faithful and dignifies him. Let's not forget that. He handed his wife over a couple of times. Just the mixed bag dynamic of where we can have these amazing moments of heroic even faith and just these moral crashes and they can all happen even in the same season and yet God the constant continues to deliver and continues to do both are part and his To make sure that our redemption move sport. So it's pretty stunning. Let's talk about that. I mean I I read through. I think almost all nine of these chapters again this morning morning because I wanted them to be fresh in my mind but I don't think we can get too far into this episode without just let's pause and camp out on that sacrifice of Isaac in chapter after Twenty-two some things that I noticed probably for the first time. Which maybe you guys have noticed this before? But so Abraham is headed up the mountain mountain and he says in Chapter Twenty Two verse five says Abraham Said To. His young men. Stay here with the donkey. I in the boy. We'll go over there and worship and come again to you and it was the first I noticed. I don't know what to infer from this. But he did not imply I'm coming back alone and I don't know if that is a statement of faith that the Lord would provide. Because he doesn't answer Isaac go down to verse seven and Isaac said behold the fire in the wood wood. But where's the lamb for a burnt offering. And then here Abraham says God will provide for himself. The lamb for a burnt offering Scott talked to us about that. Do you think the Abraham knew that the Lord would provide a replacement. Because he's got. He's got his knife and he has it raised so I also believe that he was willing. It feels almost like that. And if not moment from like shadrack and Abednego where like whatever the Lord does he is good. I will act in obedience and trust the Lord is that what's happening. Does he really believe when he tells his servants that will come back misreading that helping not read into scripture. What is not there? I think you're reading getting it right. That's always been to me at least the plain reading of the text that Abraham is deferring to what Isaiah would later say that God's thoughts are not our thoughts set his ways are not our ways that his ways are always higher if we had full access to everything that God sees and everything that God knows then every single word of the scriptures would be easy for us to believe and obey if we had access to everything that God odd season knows. And you know we all have those texts in the Bible that confuse us that confound US probably the way that Abraham might have NFL confused and confounded and yet you know the call in those moments is just lean into those words of job where jobs said Though he slay me I will trust him and he's moving forward with with everything. God told him to do while. Also think remembering the promise that God made that it's going to be through Isaac that nations are going to be born and so Abraham has either either believe that God is going to stop him in his tracks and make everything clear which is what happened or that if he does go through with it and slay his son. The God's going to resurrect his son because in Abraham's mind at least on the basis of what he told his servants there was no possible way that God was not going to bring about nations through Isaac because God had promised each sealed it so he believed the promise that I will create many nations nations from you and from your offspring or I think so. Yeah I I still delights me. And yet Abraham had a ton of shortcomings means and what faith that is beautiful for me to see that and also terrifying if I was gonNA say like it's it is beautiful but it is these. These are some of the emotions that you know that. Just what what an tall order and I mean to put it very mildly and just just how horrifying to walk this out and one thing that I had not noticed and I was just reading. I believe it was from the spurgeon study Bible. I was just like what what Charles has to say about this story. And one of the things that pointed out where it says that the two of them walked on together so I'm in the Cspan in verse six and you just read this Rachel the diverse six in his hand he took the fire and the knife in the two of them. Walked on together. And then you you know is like asks. Where's where's the lamb? And Abraham says got will provide then the two of them walked on together and this is a quote from spurgeon. It was not Christ alone. who willingly died or the father alone who gave his son but they went both of them together? Even as Abraham I'm an Isaac did here and just that this was a willing obedience on the part of the son and the father with I mean not just with God the father and crisis but with Abraham and Isaac like we were discussing the other day in office. How and correct me if this is wrong? Scott but where you know Isaac was not a yeah he was not a boy like he was more of like a young adult. And we know that Abraham's old so if I he didn't WanNa go he didn't have to go but he was obeying his father and he was walking with instead of just like nope. Like I can take you all fancily the overcome right hundred-year-old Father Right. Yeah and so for them to both like for Isaac to have these questions of where is where hair is the lamb for the offering but brim to trust Abraham and Abraham to have that same posture toward the Lord and then even to see that Isaac carried his own would in the same way that Christ carried his cross. You know I mean. It's a stunning foreshadowing. But it's a it's an agonizing Um and I think that it helps I think this story helps me understand the crucifixion or elements of the Crucifixion. That I don't know that I could otherwise tap into that kind of parental connection because you think in my mind anyway I think we'll of course God could withstand this. He's got he's perfectly just he's perfectly holy all things but when I think of a human father Yeah when Genesis teaches you. Jesus I mean that's that's what's happening here. Even the author of Hebrews in Chapter Eleven uses the words his one and only son to describe the relationship between Abraham Isaac and that of course John Three Sixteen. Yeah I looked up the word it's missy say it right monogamous. Ace is the Greek phrase for one and only right there and it's the same word used in Hebrews eleven which actually have it right here. Hebrews eleven seventeen by faith. Abraham when he was tested offered up Isaac he received the promises and yet he was offering his one and only son on the one to whom it had been said your offspring will be traced through Isaac. And that's the same in John. Three sixteen is one and only son and then even in a first I john four nine the same Greek word that I probably mispronounced. But still you did great. Thanks I I don't know to tell you that you're wrong so well I will be honest. Is that it's just what the Internet pronounce it for me. And then I copied I learnt. How do you pronounce this true? Isn't everything on there and take that to the bank perfect. What is your source the worldwide? WWW that's it. I had a family relative who in the early days of the Internet would would communicate in a you are would say worldwide web dot book just a real joy just a real so another thing in this passage before we move on so we know. Of course I don't want our listeners. If they haven't read this passage it today. 'cause it's later in the week. Says Abraham in verse thirteen lifted up his eyes and looked and behold behind him was a ram in a thicket by his horns and Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called all the name of that place the Lord will provide as it is said to this day on the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided so a couple of things here number one the Lord provide. It doesn't even my Bible doesn't give me what that word is but it does show me four other places in that chapter where that word is used I saw the Lord will provide is another way of saying that he will see to it and I think first of all when I heard you know saw the word see it made me think right back to the heck are who she says how I actually seen the God who sees me but also there are so many looked back in through chapter twenty two and there's so many instances of the the Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar that he was headed and that he looked and behold behind him was. Ram like all these like the humans are seeing but more than anything anything got to see to it. I thought that was so beautiful. But also there is reason to believe that it's possible that where the Lord told Abraham to go is possibly right outside of Jerusalem outside of the temple. Mount think of called Mount Mariah. Is that right Scott which this is something that is not a dealbreaker on our faith. But it's a neat thing to wonder if this was a similar location to where God's One and only son also gave his life do you. Are you familiar with that. Scott is at my anywhere that that's fascinating to think about. We were talking about this in the office last last week and John was going to say based on this and based on all the different things because he's he's the nerd of the lake. Follow Joan of hope. It's okay to call you a nerd. He calls himself on with with prides. Yeah that's fine but this does not share faith but based on what I am reading and understand about the geography of the area. That is likely that it would have been a similar location Asian and so to say that so then that makes for years and years apart I mean how many hundred but it says. So Abraham called the name of if that place right a lot but look at it guys and with that in mind Abraham called the name of that place the Lord will provide the Lord. We'll see to it as it is set to this day on the amount of the Lord it shall be provided this is the Lord makes me want to just like sit there for a minute tragic reversal When Christ is on the cross the Lord looks away from him and and doesn't see him so he can see us NC Hagar and see Sarah and why she's acting out with was such contempt and with such dysfunction and see Abraham and see all of us because he turned his eyes away from Christ? I friends Hannah here from she reads truth. Are you a pastor or leader at your local church we want to come alongside you and equip your congregation with Biblical literacy. We offer a wide range of plans and resources that are perfect for new believers relievers am seasoned Christians alike since each church is different. We want to equip you with digital or printed resources that will best serve your congregation for more details and to find out how to save up to forty percent on. She reads truth. Resources had to she reads truth dot com slash churches. Okay Scott I have a question as a pastor. You're someone who has pastored humans in the church for a long time okay. You have experience as what I'm saying and so so if I'm a person who I'm new to scripture here. We are first month of the year. I want to read this book that I claim to believe as a follower of Christ Tinto. I'm starting in Genesis back to the beginning right. Even if you're not reading with she reads truth. A lot of people start in Genesis January. Yeah in the most read Ed book in the Bible. Let's get January right. Yeah and because this is this is where it begins right. And so and that's good and so as you've already pointed out like I I am going to as I'm reading genesis for the first time encounter a lot of dysfunction. We're GONNA have a lot of questions but this particular story there. This isn't the only hard story in in genesis but this is a really hard story like this is a father who is asked to literally put his son on the altar and sacrifice him. How do you counsel me as a new Bible reader? Someone who doesn't have the full view of scripture and view yet as I'm reading when when I bring this story to you and say like who is this. God How would you answer that. So that is a representative question of a much. uh-huh bigger question that human beings ask all the time and the question is why why cancer. Why kids who go astray after we do everything we know to do? As parents why D- marriages fall apart. Why does a disease happen? Why governments kill their people? You know there's for every human there's there's a whole story of suffering. Why is the mortality mortality rate? One person for everyone person you know it's GonNa it's GonNa get us all eventually suffering and suffering the the implied reality underneath that is God tells us we have to go through it right because if he's God he could stop it and he chooses not to and so. There's a huge story that gives the reason behind all that that starts all the way back at the beginning. I January one two and three. If you're reading a chapter a day A it tells the story of when and how and why things went. Bad relationships fell apart. Work fell apart and our whole spiritual emotional. Psychological framework fell apart when when human being sought independence from God and ever since that time. God has been weaving together. This messy story that combines the faithfulness and character of God with the message and send of humanity but the hard question is the one that you're asking like couldn't he do it a different way could couldn't I hit reset and not have to go through all the the mess and put us through all the mess. At least that's what it feels like and the the only answer that I've ever been able to come up with because I've I've had my own seasons personally. Forget the way I've pastored people. I've I've had my doubts. I've had my seasons of thinking who is this. God and why is he like this and the answer that I'm always brought to and it's really the only satisfactory true one to me is that there's not a single thing that God will ask us or require us to go through that he has Argonne threw himself. And you think about Jesus the story you think about the life that he chose he could have he could have been like Solomon he said. You know I'm GonNa. I'm GonNa pick a choice piece of land of Bill Castle. I'm going to be rich. I'm going to have multiple pools and servants and some people waiting on me. He could have chosen that but he didn't. He chose to be born to a couple of poor teenagers He chose to be born into a family. That would would eventually have refugee status in experience when you know with Harrods brutal decree. He chose to to have a life that would have him homeless at times. He was a blue collar worker. Not Large and in charge couldn't afford to go to college all of that stuff like that's the life chose and the life also chose with his life that would end in the way that it did in his thirty s utter betrayal by the people that he came to love and save his own did not receive him right utter abandonment from the father which he was in on the plan before the foundation of the universe. Yep will go through that I will. I will go through that betrayal and you will go through that heartache. Father Because that's how we love them. And I think you know of of course that was to save us. That was to substitution atonement and all these wonderful doctrines of salvation but I think the cross especially as well as just the humiliation creation that characterize the whole life of Christ was to remind us when we doubt. Hey you're not alone. And not only have I been through similar things betrayal abandonment loneliness et CETERA. Et been through them a million times worse than histories. Whoever history's second the greatest sufferer is I've been through that suffering a million times worse because of the hell that I I had to endure? Is it true. Tell coming if this is not true but I think is it true that Jesus is the only human that God look away from yes takes takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked so when you when you say that. He's the number one sufferer for all reasons aside all the other reasons that you you just described that reason he's the only one who's been utterly and completely abandoned by God even Judas you you think about it when Judas was in the act of the train Jesus in handing him over to the authorities. What name did Jesus give to? Judas what did we call him. That's your Bible knowledge friend friend friend. Come do what you came for a friend. The training friend you you know put out looked at him and said Brand Yeah so having just said all of that I want to just read emme. We were talking about how. It's the same Greek word but John Three sixteen and seventeen that we give a lot of lip service to you. But but having just I read the story of Isaac and having just had this conversation listen to the word of the Lord for God loved the world in this way he he gave his one and only son so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life for God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world through him. Do you believe this is true. I do this is the word of the Lord Expedia God and so. That's it in. That is enough. That full stop is enough in your. I think you're right Scott. It's the only we've talked a lot about the question. Why on the few episodes of this podcast that we've had so far and one of the things that we've discovered in our own faith walks in our relationship with scripture sir? Is that so often. We do not get an answer to why especially to questions as big as the one that we just asked but we do get the answer to WHO and so it. It's enough so when Hagar in Chapter Sixteen Genesis says you are the God who sees as me. That's what any one of us can say. God will not and has not and does not turn away from us and you think about Yep Hagar and the degree to which she's experienced isolation trail she's saying those words I mean she was brought into this situation by the very woman who sent her into exile and so like you're punishing me for what you did to me and through that God sees her. So Johnny Eric's Totta has this this little quote that always comes to mind in these conversations where she says that you know Johnny. She speaks from a place of hard fought credibility having been in a wheelchair all of her life since her teenage years paralyzed from the neck down. She says that sometimes And she's speaking into the mystery of these things that we're talking about. She says sometimes God will allow things that God hates in order to accomplish. Wish things that God loves and that's not like to wrap things up in a tiny little bellevue johnny. She's not a person to wrap things up in a tiny little bell but it. That's her conclusion after having her own wrestling match like Jacob with the Lord and walking away not just with a limp but with paralysis and that's her conclusion as well that God is God and we have to interpret our circumstances in light of his character rather than defining his character. Through the interpretive grid of our circumstances and so our friend Rebecca Rachel Sister Becca said that with Jacob that his limp was evidence of victory. And I think that I think of that with my son. Oh he has a limp but it is you know in the suffering is real and that is a true thing but his victory is even reeler and not just like oh we lived through this but the Covenant Gift Gift of Eternal Life and of life in Christ is that. That's the price and I look at Johnny and I mean Gosh I mean I've I've I've known Johnny's name since I was a little girl in my speaking of my mom. My mom introduced me to to Johnny and With a book of Hers and so I've not once looked at her and thought defeat not wants joy is most defiant thing I've ever seen gene of just defying the darkness and defying all of those false narratives. That God's not good this is it's the serpent stuff from the garden has really said is really trying to deprive. You really have some fruit pave your own way. It's it's defiant. It's beautifully wonderfully courageously defiant to have joy and to not let the joy be sabotaged by lies like Paul and Silas in the midnight hour singing in prison cell and we all have our mid nine hours. Yeah and we have our you know. It doesn't always look like physical limp or physical ailment be a dark night of this whole you know. Bi To to praise the Lord it and believed that he is who he says he is. I mean maybe this is just the thing that we're GonNa talk about every single week Rachel on this is like is what he says he is. Yeah I mean yeah is word true. And we're in midway through the book of Genesis in makes us want to talk about Jesus Jeep Ridden Folks Khaki bring okay. So let's on that topic Scott as my pastor but as a pastor one of the one of the things that she reads truth says we liked to exist as sort of like Biblical literacy between Sundays. So we are not church. We don't want you to be with us on Sunday morning. We want you to be with the local church on Sunday morning but one of the reasons we've actually put that language to what we do into our role in the lives of brothers and sisters in Christ in our role in the church and and in the world today is because of Based on conversations that I've had with you and with Russ Ramsay who pastors. CPC as as well but also as pastor and he was our contractor she reads truth for a good amount of time. But the concept of Biblical literacy between Sundays Days. Came from that conversation where you had said you got to a point where you almost had to preach with an assumption of Biblical illiteracy. Talk to us about the importance of Bible reading between Sundays. And what that means for you in your congregation. Amos said that the greatest crisis in Israel during his time was a famine for hearing the word of the Lord when we get into seasons where we do not center our lives and our schedules around the intake that God offers to us both from the local church the life of the local culture as well as from a daily habit. I use that word in the best way in the most life giving way we starve ourselves. We malnourish nourish ourselves. And and what it creates a default reality where we are allowing ourselves to be disciples by everything else. We look at and look to throughout the Monday through Friday rhythms whether that's social media or retail therapy or or careerism. Whatever we're looking at to fill that void and these are all wonderful things by the way I it's great to shop for a new shirt or pair of shoes or whatever like these are gifts? God's given you know to for us to enjoy or it's great to have a career that you love passion beauty goodness and truth that's right. It's all party creation and God said it all creations good but creation when it is when some aspect of creation is put in the center of if if our lives our solar system and we turn a created thing into the sun and got on. The periphery intern God into Pluto. Where you know our God life is revolving around around some other thing that we've made more central than even that thing becomes sour and we lose both to see us with says you aim at heaven and you'll get her thrown own in if you aim at you'll get neither in other words? He's keeping the hierarchy of our love's well ordered when we feel like it or not. I mean that's what love is. Love is when Mulino in when you don't want to that's when love is tested is when you're bored or distracted or your desires are being pulled some other way you still show show up to dinner with your spouse and your kids if you have a family or you still you still show up for the things that matter so we we have to not treat showing up with Christ as as an optional thing and that the beautiful aspect of of a life that is formed through these daily Long-term Long-term daily habits. You you want to know how to become an amazing Christian. Read the Bible every day for twenty years. You WanNa be an amazing human being. Read the Bible Every Single Day for twenty years or Org. You know you miss a few days you miss a few days. I love how you guys like. Give that like you do five days and you give the grace day and anion courage people to be meaningful part of the by. There's always grace you know I. It's like you know you you you miss an important meeting or appointment you oh you just you show up the next time you know. It's and it's not like the friendship is over right. God's not going to abandon us but are the enrichment An enjoyment as well as the just the fortification of our souls is only going to happen when these means of grace. The word the sacraments documents which happened in the context of local church prayer in the community by the way I. If you're a bible reader you will also discover if you're paying attention that the vast majority of the Bible is written to reality of people not to individuals especially the New Testament there are so few singular second person references his There's a whole lot of Y'alls that's where southern you know. Something language are Nashville. Life helps us interpret the Bible a little bit better because it's all y'all's All throughout so. I can't emphasize how important it is. And how much of a famine it will create two to choose is to remain biblically illiterate. Now it's hard when you get to Leviticus you know at least read but this is where we have. Yeah and this is where we have to tell ourselves. You know God says it. Every single word word is valuable every single word. And even if I don't feel it's valuable even if it doesn't feel relevant. Part of faith is realizing is acknowledging that it it is still relevant. Even if it doesn't feel or seem relevant keep going like Broccoli like why in the world. I eat raw broccoli. Well because nutritionists told me it's healthy healthy and history shows that people who eat a lot of Broccoli and not a lot of you know. cupcakes tend to do better in in in in life life. Generally speaking as a pattern and the same is true with people who habituate the reading of scripture and who habituate life in the local church. Ten mm to thrive more and actually be more life giving for the people around them generally speaking listeners who have rolled with she reads truth. Pre podcast. World will be familiar with this phrase. But we've never had said it on the podcast. One of the things. One of our sort of key goals at she reads truth. Breath is related to the Scott where we don't exactly exist to reach New New People groups with their first copies of scripture. Now we do support seed company for example and others. Who are doing that very very important work but what we do what we hope to do is to get the already reached to reach for their bibles arrivals? And it's amazing those emails that we get those it's the reached who are reaching for their bibles and going like Oh my goodness I am in my sixty s and this is the first time I've been regularly reading my Bible. Can I make a comment on that. Very brief in terms of resources one of the reasons why people quit is because they have a hard time taking what was written thousands of years ago and understanding how it applies. There's incredible study bibles she. She reads truth itself and he reads truth or or both marvelous resources as well just the daily studies and the perspective that you all offer for in the emphasis on reading scripture. But I wonder if you guys I'm sure you have studied bibles that you recommend which which have notes on every page that can help people understand more or what they're reading what what are those study. Bibles well Worn Bible that you always hear my flipping pages on. It's a reformation Study Bible. It was gifted to me when Oliver over was born for thirteen years except for the year that I wrote our trade book and there's a good story there actually. Can I tell that story. Listen we we are asked to write a book for being H and not only where we asked you. We're excited to The book is called. She reads truth. Hold it title holding onto permanent in a world. That's passing away as we sat down to write that book My Bible went missing and could not find it. Flip delayed couldn't find it had all my I like notes notes to self in it and it didn't know how to write that book and so I talked to our publisher Jennifer and I and I said I don't know how to do list and she said perhaps you do not have the Bible right now because you would not see things that you would see otherwise. Perhaps you wouldn't be able to see past your pass. Nosy need to see something new. And so we wrote that book. Amanda and I and I didn't have my Bible. It was not for lack of looking. There was like a citywide search. Rachel's chills find find like called restaurants in Franklin like care my Bible a lot of places. It's likely I don't carry as many places anymore. Some afraid to lose it works your name in the number everything so like I I had done all the right things we write the book. The book gets published one night. We're sitting in our living room. Kids have already gone to bed. A call comes up on my phone. Don't recognize the number answer anyway and it's this girl in springhill and Springhill is like what thirty minutes south of here a two for. Not Too far and she says her name Rachel Meyers. Yeah I have your Bible okay. Wow already like shaking. Where's your address? Where are you like how can how is is that possible and so what happened is we had gone to? There's a chapel at the front of our neighborhood and we had gone for a service there one Sunday and I'd left my Bible and then the next Saturday she got married there so they they got married and their family packed up everything in the church and put it in their attic in springhill for a year and so that night she and her parents were going through all the boxes from her wedding in their attic in springhill and they discovered. Something they didn't recognize is my Bible. That had been held held just far enough out of reach for a year and then I mean we went that night and I got back so I mean that is not the question that you asked but and I and I think that it's good. It's good to read with unfamiliarity. It's good to read apart from the notes that we have for ourselves. I think that's I think that was a good lesson lesson for me and I'm so grateful that the Lord brought my my copy back to me. My wife's still got the Bible that her young life leader gave to her in high school. She's changed the outside wears out and she's replaced the Cheeses Daley. She's got her high school kid notes in there as well as the she writes. Now did you write it in Penn.. So she couldn't still still. They're still there might be something racing. There's something to be said for not racing because you can sort of track the way that you've grown in the insights that you've gained over the years on us and and and just how the the words are so alive you know Hebrews talks about how it's alive and active and and so that tells us new things you know during different seasons is it tells us new things and the Holy Spirit animates it. Further the more exposure we get into a single verse right couple of other things that we like to do personally and advise others who are a reading scripture with us to do is to read a couple of different translations from time to time just to for that same purpose of just if you get too who familiar with one. Sometimes it's nice to pivot a little bit until we do. All of the she reads truth. Steady books are printed in the CSB the Christian Standard Standard Bible and it was not. It's a relatively new translation. It kinda was born of the HCC in so we weren't very familiar with it. Take a first and it really makes you pay attention because there will be a word that's used and and a lot of times if you've grown very accustomed to a certain translation it could it can feel offensive. You're like wait a minute. That's the way this goes rhythm of this verse. A good example of that you just read John. Three Sixteen Riley are used to hearing that as for God so loved the world right and you said and God love the world in this way this way. Yeah it's it's hi it's good And then also to read you know so the three of us in preparation for for conversation. Today we read chapters after's what twenty three twenty seven eight and okay twenty three twenty eight and so like when was last down and read that particular Swath Swath scripture. I don't remember and so two often read. You know more in one sitting like sometimes yes you know. Read a chapter or dwell on a passage acid or verse but then also sometimes sit and read broader passages of scripture in. That can change the way that that you hear it or see it in your mind's eye and so that's something that's really helpful. For example. Last week we talked with Rebecca Lions about reading about the Tower of Babel. And they were saying. Let's make our name famous and got said No. And then the very next chapter God says Abraham I'm GonNa make you famous I will. I will make you famous and it's beautiful because you don't always going going to read these two together but if you read through like if you read a large swath like you said that's where you start to see the character of God in in a more thorough way so what we ended up talking about which very appropriate on the series truth. podcast is the beauty and truth of scripture and that it is living and active and we refer to this passage in Hebrews on the daily right ray the office. oftentimes I wanna read it for us. Hebrews four twelve and I'm reading from the ESP for the word of God is living ineffective in sharper than any double edged sword. Penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit It joints and marrow is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. No creature is hidden from him. Here we talking about being seen by God no creature is hidden. I'm from him but all things are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give an account which is sobering sentence but then keep keep going to verse fourteen therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens Jesus the Son of God let us hold fast to our confession for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses but one who has been tempted in every way as we are yet without sin therefore let us approach the throne of grace with boldness habitually. We might even say so that we might receive mercy and find grace to help us in time of need. Do you believe this is true I do. I do believe this is true and I believe that this is the beauty of scripture is that it is living it is active and it is convicting and it exposes asset exposes our sin it also reveals to us the son of God who came name and as you said Scott endured all of this that we are enduring yet was without sin and then lay down his life. This this is why we read. This is why we have to read daily and not just on Sundays. Toby and the quality of his life and how rich which it is. Because he's not doing any of it alone and his buddies Theo and his other buddy joy they've got people you know they've all got people all that makes all the difference. Christ is he's invisible to us but he's he's no less there are people he's he's our people people good all right. We'll Scott. This was your first time on the shearing podcasts. And I say I hope there will be a second. There's an implied Komo tation so much for coming. So you know that the series truth podcast is a place where we open up scripture and talk about the beauty goodness and truth we find there and at the end of the she reads. It's true podcast. We talk about the beauty. Goodness and truth. We are finding in our lives today. So Amanda in Scott What do you got I have a thing. And it's relatively simple. But good melodies I if I had a nickel for every song that's been stuck in my head this week and it's a little bit infuriating but also just like the beauty of good melody and how it really just digs down deep and it will not let your brain go which is my experience. Maybe that's not yours but also what a gift that is just music like having music. That won't leave my head this week. Yeah it's been good and I found a lot of a lot of beauty there. So that's my any of those songs been Disney songs. Perhaps also songs from the movie or Musical Annie. Yeah that's real yeah do do children. That's good what about you got so our friend and boss camp would be proud of us finding those things to be thankful thankful for and naming them so my podcast dear Ann dear for me. It's dogs some are really early riser. Not By choice. Just wake up insanely early and so I get a lot of time in my reading spot with my dog. Lulu loves loves to just snuggle right up to me. And the first thing she does when she sits down next to me issues. Look me in the face just complete I contact right. Wow contact makes us awkward but with a dog I contact as never awkward. Because you know that your dog. Doug thinks that you hung the universe. Anything that's right that's right. I mean I want the whole world to think that I'm the person that my dog thinks. I am But the connection point with her with your dog lady actually in the way she greeted me and warmed up to me this morning. That's I think. A little glimpse is that the Lord gives us of what he thinks of us is dogs. I I think our dogs are given to us to show us who we really are in the site of the one who loved us and gave himself for so so dogs would be mindset is such a good one. I love that. Wait a minute. Your Dog's name is Lulu. Is Russia's dog dog also lewellen copied us we we we have the I. I don't think they named their Lulu after ours. Willie Willie who's WHO's deceased now. May he rest in peace with the saints s among witnesses. Rachel what you got right now. I am loving a good house. You I noticed your house us. I'm not saying that you're wearing them now. I won't say that that's not what I'm saying is true I I like I like one. I don't WanNa slipper that soft soul. I need it to be hard enough soul. I can wear it outside if I need to go to the mailbox or you have to chase the dog yes. Speaking of dogs Yes but also cozy and I don't feel like I'm wearing shoes so do you. You just said both. Do you say how shoes or slippers Both I I think I would say both but I I used to say both with an l. out of you then toward house shoes that yeah it feels more old-timey which is how I'm feeling that's good. That's good all right gang. We are so grateful for your listens and we are so glad you're joining us more than that. We hope that any time you spend with us in hires hires you and encourages you to spend time with the Lord in his word so go read your Bible. Today we will be back next week to talk about the fourth week of the book of Genesis. Go Out huggag look a dog in the eye and until don't say anything don't say anything and Amanda until then why should they do. Keep opening your bibles. We'll thea next time.

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Episode 268: Abraham Did Kill Isaac - Tzemah Yoreh

Judaism Unbound

46:41 min | 4 months ago

Episode 268: Abraham Did Kill Isaac - Tzemah Yoreh

"Support for this episode of judaism. Unbound comes from the family. Jcc in palo alto california whose vision is to be the architect of the jewish future. The oshman's jcc empowers you to experience jewish paths toward a life of joy purpose and meaning through innovative jewish learning and wellness programs community building and initiatives to develop the next generation of jewish leaders. Learn more at www dot palo alto jcc dot org. This is judaism unbound episode. Two hundred sixty eight. Abraham did kill isaac. Welcome back everyone. I'm dan lee benson. And i'm lex roseburg and as we get towards the conclusion of this series of episodes that we've been doing on the bible although like many of our subject. It's one that will come back to where excited today to be talking to the author of a new book that serves as a great introduction to the way that the bible is studied in the modern academy. But it's so accessible and it so fun to read. There's some classics in this field. That are wonderful books. The bible an earth and david and solomon which are both by israel finkelstein and neil. Usher silberman if anybody's really interested in finding a way into this. Send me an email. Because it's really something that i particularly. Enjoy talking to people about and and helping people find their way into by the way reading. Some of this material and critical bible study has been something that's been discussed by previous guests and judaism down. You would think that people who read about critical bible. Study the idea that the bible was written by numerous as opposed to god or moses that would somehow be damaging to people's faith and maybe for some people it is but for other people whose faith has already been shaken in some of those ideas the opportunity to connect to the bible in a different way and to understand the bible still as a really important and powerful work and having never been introduced. Really to how this book might have come about in a different way. Other than the traditional way that it's been taught can be very liberating for people and very exciting and very invading back into judaism. And that's something that we hope that maybe this series has done a little bit for some of our listeners and some of these books are really amazing opportunities to dive deeper into them. Our guest today. Makia acura is the author of a new book called. Why abraham isaac the first stories of the bible revealed and unlike some of the other books which are more organized chronologically. This one is organized. Almost like an archaeological dig where we're really trying to understand. What was that base. I layer of the bible. And then how. And why was it added onto and we look at that story by story by story. And it's just a new way to present this material. In a way that we found particularly engaging and exciting why abraham murdered isaac will be available as an e book. Starting this coming. Tuesday april eighth. You can get it wherever you get e books and it's not san mateo res- first book on the bible. In fact he has written many of them. You can find them. Listed at a site called modern scriptures. It actually has a different website. It's www dot bible criticism dot com. Where you can see a wide variety of his books which include not only books about the bible. He has also written a series of books on humanist prayer because in addition to having to phd's in bible criticism and instant wisdom literature is also a humanist. Rabbi he hasn't rabbinical ordination from the israeli affiliate of the international institute for a secular humanistic judaism. We've had a number of guests related to the humanistic jewish movement on the podcast over the years and he is now the rabbi of the city congregation of new york which is the humanistic congregation in new york. City san mateo. Welcome to judaism unbounded so great to have you. Thank you very much in this book. You talk a lot about what you call the original bible. Could you tell us a little bit about what that original bible is what you mean by when it when it was written. What is this original bible that you're finding within the bible as we know it what i mean by that is that it's missing the first story from the logically that was written down and then every subsequent story was built upon it So that's what i mean by. The original wide will probably more accurately the original original torah. Tell us a little more about what that means to sort of. Open up a version of the bible that we have which is to say. I don't know the unoriginal early like another version. And what is that like archaeology task. Like where you're sort of a us. Rq because it seems like digging. It's like you're you're looking through layers and the second question who cares. They're a great sentence or two in your book. So one person wrote the bible or twenty five people wrote the bible like so what we have a thing like. What is it. What are the ramifications if multiple people wrote this or if there was an original source or not. I liked the comparison an archaeology. You know it's a productive one. Because i 'cause the way i look at the at the toronto especially is that it's like sediment that cruise i think of layers as opposed to sources posted documents And there's one basic story and then every subsequent author added their own layer to it until it arrived at the tax that we have and so i can i can choose a chapter To choose okay. i'll let me let me just start. Where i started the book. I mean what why. Abraham isaac story of abraham. So let's start with the a chapter twenty one So abraham travelled word the land of the south in live between tradition tour he lived as a foreigner in guar. So you can ask like. Why did i start here. Well it's because it's the first time i identify a particular writer. Why think is is the first writer and identify him here for variety of reasons that actually many other bible scholars agree with me. It's sheer. I where you see elohim rather than other names for god elohim is used beforehand but it is used by a different author an author. Who's very i call. Electric column the accountants very organized. Very you know you see him in genesis one. So he's a very different kind of office so this is the first time i see a story that uses the name. Elohim is really just a story not like a list. Not an accountant. So abraham travelled toward the land of the south between tradition to or he lived as a foreigner in guar abraham said about sarah his wife. She is my sister of king of sent Sarah this is a story other actually three of them. We're a one of the patriarchs. Abraham in two of them and isaac in another at present their wives as their sisters and the monarch in two of the stories takes their sister or wife An another story almost does and so what is the relationship between those three stories than three stories should have relationships. And so which story comes. First story in genesis twelve Which is the first iteration of the story or this story in genesis. Twenty and so for lotteries. I think it's the story in genesis twenty. That came first and over here. This is hard to really fly. Sea in the english but A female king of garage sent and took sarah the verb to take in biblical hebrew. When a man takes a woman has a has a sexual connotation to it It means that he has sexual relations with a woman. So this is of course very problematic. is a matriarch and chapter. Twenty what she gives birth to isaac so her but what she does at this point. is very critical i to know isaac is like where he comes from. Ed if sarah is having sexual relations with so what else. Did abraham made up the father. So you know this. Is this bears a relationship to chapter twelve in the book of genesis. Where farrow takes sarah to his house at again. Chapter twelve sexual relations is implied In fact highly suggested rushie who is a medieval commentator. Says that pharaoh was sick with the ed could could perform you know i. It's a difficult situation it says but it's a but it's a very critical issue and it's not just a critical issue for me. It was a critical issue for a bunch earlier. Rabbis i it's critical in the context of the tax as well and one thing that if i understand this correctly the original author that you're going to be talking about comes from the north of the the land of israel which in biblical times they were two kingdoms in northern kingdom of israel. And this other judah and one of the scandalous things that would be for us today. Scandalous with the idea. That may be. Isaac was not the son of abraham is that that would mean that. We're not descended from abraham right but in the north they didn't think they were descended from abraham so it was no big deal right. This is just a story. About abraham and he had this son who turned out to be the son of a foreign king. And then later as you're gonna get killed them so okay nice story. It doesn't matter because he's not our ancestor right to an extent you're y- that's right meaning in the it. Seems like the popular the myth that these this original story is dying is that jacob was the ancestor and jacob was the son of isaac. And where does jacob come from. Well you know the answer. I give is fairly glib. I say he comes from beersheva But the place which is louie place and you know that you know it's not telling his prehistory But that's because the story has to start somewhere for for the northern kingdom. The story started with jacob and verse. Three God came to of the american dream of the night instead to behold your dead man because of the woman who you have taken for. She is a man's wife that seems fairly straightforward. Okay he'd had sexual relations with sarah adultery. Obeit you know you did not mean to do that but nonetheless that he deserves. The guy seems fairly unjust. You know. you didn't know what he was doing. But the sensor of but his justin what is not just You know it's a story we don't have to you completely tied do those. Are those notions. We can just hold them in reserve for questions leader. So again you see the take it you know taking sexually. Or otherwise if he had just taken her and not anything. Why would he be liable to killed like she should. She should be okay. If you haven't done anything you should be okay Role that implication that they had sexual relations verse. Four immediately goes ahead and says Now if you had not come near her okay. That's a that's news to us. You know considering how what. It was implied. But you have a contradiction. Meaning there's one there's one version The first versus aren't implying that they had sexual relations and now merely says they do not have sexual relations so here we have a contradiction and we have to resolve in the one of the ways we resolve. It is by assuming more than one author. So here's the beginning of that happening in this chapter and so here we have a an interesting dream. Dialogue versus of four to six of you mouth did not come near you. Said more Will you kill even a righteous nation. Didn't she tell me she is my sister. She even see herself. Said he is my brother in integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands. I done this thing. God's it to him in the dream. Yes i know that in the integrity of your heart. You have done this. I've also withheld from sinning against me. Therefore i did not allow you to touch her. See again emphasized again and again. They did not have sexual relations three times in the course of that. I did not have sexual relations with this guy. I do not have sex with that woman. Yes but there's another. There's another a very interesting aspect to these verses. And that is that this is a dialogue in a dream. Now if you look at dreams in the enough in the whole the hebrew bible people weren't having dialogues and dreams. That's not something there's one other occurrence of that and that's a really Dialogue that has sold them in in which there's a very very long passage where which delivering really not comparable but Detects is cognizant that it's at odds and says God said to him in the dream it has to remind you that we're in a dream so you're since we may have lost track of the facts for those reasons. I assume that verses four to six were added to this chapter and i assumed that You know we have here a contradiction. We have here Divergent details and we have something that just doesn't occur elsewhere biblical narratives so a scene your occurrence and so for those reasons i would say the versus four to six were actually added by somebody who was very concerned that are not have sexual relations of emails. Which is something very very understandable because the next chapter Has isaac being born and we want to be sure that is experience is through abraham so that brings us to the who cares. I've excited so i get the point. You're making it. I think that it's very very persuasive. I am now. A total adherent of versus four to six a very specific jewish movement of those who will now spouse versus four to six of chapter. Twenty geneticists are new source. You've have recruited me. Now what what. Should i be telling people the ramifications of that are who cares. I think there is a very important meta points to make about this. There's never been one story stories shift and change and we re tell them fits our our cultural generational circumstances and it's a point that you find right in the hebrew bible itself if you look closely enough and then you know it. Loosens like this idea. This is the truth you know. Were you know my reading of the bible is the one that we should you know. Except i look at it through a supplementary. A criminal paradigm stories built upon each other. They're just multiple stories out there in the hebrew bible multiple perspectives and so nobody has monopoly over the story. Why for example with this person who corrected the story to make sure that they emphasize that they never actually had sex first of all. Why did they preserve the story at all. Why did they leave this part of the story where he says he took her. You know why not just kind of race that line and only have the part where they don't have sex like. How do you understand the way that this work happened. I think there was Erasure wasn't part of the part of the bargain. What that means is that There it's crucial people just built on each other and the reason for that is fairly straightforward. It's because detached was regarded as important. You don't you don't you. Don't excise senatorial process that we're very used to in the modern world where we can and reorganized and. I don't think that that was really a part of what was happening a lot in the ancient world maybe to some extent. Maybe when you really disagreed or whatever. But if it's a story that you're bringing out you're preserving and handing it down to the next generation. It's a story respect. So you're not going to tamper with it in that way. You will add you on the margin saladdin. You'll add at the beginning at the end. But you won't actually You won't actually erase. And that's i would say that fundamental key to the way i understand how How the torah and other human by x. developed a follow up on that. I mean i agree with you in many ways. I also want to play devil's advocate cause like by definition if something was in the original bible and erased then. We don't have it so we can't point to it and say Yes a strategy that people used is they sometimes the race stuff because if they raised raised it and so. That's not to say. I think for sure that happened i am. I do think that what you're saying about how something can have cultural cachet so that you can't really race it at a certain point. I think that's true. And i think that there's some complications there and so i guess this brings me to a related question. Which is maybe. I would argue. There's people who are racing right but for those who would say okay. I'm with you. But like i'm not so sure about this original bible i can agree with you that there are different sources happening in this text of genesis twenty. But i'm not sure that one of them is say the original so much as it's part of a source which people you know. They have names for these j. e. n. p. And like they would say yes this points to there being multiple sources that are sort of in conversation with each other and that there's like a redacting putting together at some stage etc but they would argue. It doesn't necessarily point to an original bible from which the others flowed so. I don't really know where. I'm situated in that debate. But i'm curious how you would articulate your case that no this specifically does point to any original bible and not to multiple different traditions in different places or times that were put together. So you're absolutely right that that That's a weak point in any argument. The argument from silence is hard to make. What if something is raised. I will never know that it was a race like we won't know when you make that kind of argument where you have to proceed is through aggregate at each level if you find a story. That's being told the story that is coherent at each stage. It seems more likely. I think that it's more likely that dynamic of erasure was limited. The test of a model in any scientific endeavor is how much it explains. How much new insight you can gain into it. And so i submit that my paradigm might be wrong And i will fully willing to admit that. But i will also argue that. It provides a lot of interesting new insights but how the tax work. And that's why i think it has a that validity to itch meaning. This is just a particular example about the about the of isaac. But let's go to genesis twenty two so we're at the murder scene So while you you may ask. There wasn't a murder and in genesis. Twenty two Before abraham brings down his nice the angel of god calls it from heaven and says do not murder him and then isaac is replaced by ram I mean that's how the story is. A story is told but there is plenty of evidence that somebody was trying to cover up the scene of the crime the most suggestive Um without any biblical criticism at all is verse. Nineteen in a genesis twenty two and that is so abraham returned to his young man and they rose up and went together to their chevaux. What's the problem here is. It's not there something happened to him. Okay you can say that. That's an emission. Okay yeah young. Abraham the stories about abraham on is it so he went but that's really an inadequate answer considering that in previous versus the emphasize that they went together twice in verse six eight and so this is actually very suggestive to Goal mutassim which are elaborations of the of the story of the biblical tax that isaac was actually sacrificed There's a whole book about it. by By sholom spiegel called the last trial and he talks about this tradition of Where isaac was sacked vice So this idea was present in the minds of early rabbis. Interpreting tax and in liturgy in prayers have references to the ashes of isaac. Why do you have registry ashes of isaac. There was no burning The ran was merged so again it was very a people allude to the murder. And then say oh. The murderer didn't happen. You know First of all we have the motive. The motive i think is a abraham abraham sought. That's a flashback. To denison twenty. That seems like that is. It may have been on female sun the early rabbis interpreting tax Were worried about that. Possibility and Had isaac not exactly like abraham because people say if isaac look at abraham so So they address that possibility very early on that is it was abraham son and not someone else's son nelson but they're also has to be god's not why does god ask abraham to do it. Why did you know so you know. The classic testing abraham. but that's a cop out. I would say is a wide is dot test. Abraham wires abraham. Why did abraham warranty is kind of horrible casts. Bit where you're he's many branches face a child again. We have to go back to genesis twenty and we see that did not trust in god. Trust in god is very important to this. I miss i author to this first version of the torah. abraham didn't trust dot because he presented his wife's as his sister he didn't trust god protection and so keep created this horrible scene where of Took sierra into his house and trusting in god is the most important thing for this particular story line. And at now since abraham do not trust in god in genesis twenty he is demanded god demands of him much higher level of of trust of obedience And that's that's why. God commands abraham zach faces. I'm curious about understanding this original bible little more first of all. I just want to reassure the readers that if they read your book they will find that. There's additional linguistic and evidence that you find in the story of the sacrifice of isaac that it really happened that the murderer really happened so just a note on that particular story we can really play it all out but can you talk to us a little bit more about what are some of that author of the original. But what if what are some of the other worldviews that are may be different from the torah as we know it. And maybe some of the other elements that fall into the story like for example. When i was a kid. And i've talked about this that i read richardo at friedman's book who wrote the bible when it came out in nineteen eighty-seven and that was life changing for me. The most exciting thing for me. I remember to this day was the discovery that moses and aaron weren't really brothers that mercer was the northern the leader of the north and and the lineage of the northern priest and erin was the lineage of the southern priests and they only became brothers much later when the north and south merged together and had to create a story to put them together. Other people could hear that and say so. The whole thing is b. s. I heard and i was like oh. This is the coolest thing i've ever heard. So could you talk some about so. I know moses is a very important character in the north. Can you talk a little bit. About who the moses of the north is compared to the most of the south and other things that you think are important. Yeah so. I think it's a as opposed to pretty much every other story in torah. The original bible is a human centered story. God appears in the story. Wes is less of a character in the story. And it's manifest. Particularly with moses moses in a is a is a like Really the hero of the story. He does the plagues by himself. He takes the israelites. Egypt's himself he brings the israelites into the land himself. This by himself was very minimal. Help from god. And he's presented as a as a as a magician if you look at the the bible as it is that is not the way moses presented muslims presented as the stuttered and somebody who is not an effective leader and that the reason for that is to elevate god in the story of the that's the primary reason God in story of the exodus to make god zero and we can find it. Most in the Passover gotta where when retell the story in the traditional gotta moses appears only one time and so you see that trend trying to elevate god and minimize human heroes. That one that starts in hebrew bible ends up you know ends later human characters more black and white heroes in this version of the story. You find much more nuance characterization. In later versions for me. As a humanist i find this version of story inspiring is humans were were the main actors god appeared but you'll humans were the main actors even in the ancient stories. I wanna talk a little more about something. You've hinted at a couple of times. But that. I that i think should be really explicit. You you talked about mid rashes you talked about sort of later takes the come after the bible and sort of either you could terminate filling gaps. Or you could terminate adding on details. Whatever it is and you also mentioned in the same sentence or very near to that that in the bible itself. That's being done. That matters a lot from my perspective. Because the second you accept that as truthful if you do i do like all of a sudden the status of torah of bible of like it's kind of an equalizing maneuver right. It means that the original thing already is kind of fan fiction and the later stuff is also fan fiction so like the idea that that the older stuff must of necessity be elevated above the later stuff kind. I mean maybe it doesn't totally collapse. There's other arguments you could make for. Why you give that sort of precedents. But i think it becomes more complicated and i'm thinking about funny enough. I've become a star wars guy in recent years. And i say that on purpose because it's only been in recent years i did not grow up with a deep connection to the original three star wars movies. I had seen them and they were fine but like i. I wasn't that interested in them to be totally honest. The seventh and eighth star wars movies for me. Not the ninth. The seventh and eighth star wars movies for me were huge and and they. They made me connect in a way that the originals maybe in quotes. Maybe not in quote the originals. The original bible the original stars. They made me connects to this story in a way that those did not and like. I know that you know this. You're you're intentionally triggering me here. yes yes. Dan is very much an originals star. Wars person you know. This is a generational religious debate. So what's also true though. Is that in connecting to the seventh and eighth movies. I've gone and watched the originals gained a deeper relationship ship to them and understood them more. Now i'm also leaving out the ninth movie. Which i think is heinous and terrible for all sorts of reasons and from my perspective. This goes back to what i said before. I don't i just don't treat it as canon as like as if as if it's in the central texas i've just decided that from my star wars. There are eight movies. And then there's the mandalorian which is which is a tv version of it. That goes in its own direction so i was gonna ask where to the prequels fit into this. The i don't hate the prequels to the extent that some people do. But i don't think that they're like i don't spend that much time on them but so all that is to say we do this now like this is not just some ancient rhetorical conversation about a bunch of texts that end of the day like who cares this could have major ramifications for how we understand ourselves today and what licenses we have going to set like. I have decided. They're eight star wars movies in my cannon. I feel like actually allowed to make that decision. Because i don't think that the star wars movies are from god. I don't think that they are like. I'm clearly taking this analogue to farm like i have the right to make my cannon soda. You you have the right to say that there are no seventy nine if you think so. I think that's that's important. Like how could we think about this. Not as some ancient trivial conversation. That doesn't really matter but actually is deeply relevant today. Yeah no absolutely. I lake your analogy to start. He's a lot. And like dan. At probably generational i you know by lake the first star wars i i i must confess. I probably only watched one of the sequels. Because i was so put off by. I'm sorry that's okay. That actually strengthens the point right. Yeah so yeah. I think it's a world of of choice you know. There's not one version of the story that that's right. There's not one version of the story. That's in the bible. That's the right version of the story. There are multiple versions of the story in the hebrew bible in multiple versions of that story and after postal expansions and every one of those stories is one which you as an individual with choice can accept or reject as the story. You like you valorize you. You connect to that. Dynamic is applicable to all to all facets of our you know cultural Artifacts we accepted went we reject and then like it. I liked analogy to star wars. Yeah so can you talk a little bit about the some of the differences of opinion. Let's say within the world of biblical scholarship. Because i think a lot of us who know anything about the because scholarship have been introduced to it via this idea called the documentary hypothesis which is a few hundred years old. I think of their basic idea. Is that there. Were these four independent or quasi independent sources that are each their own document and so there would not be a way to say. There was a quote original bible at at the most you might say they were two original versions which we know of as the east source from the north and the j. sorts from the south and at a later point when they came together it was kind of like the bring in pop culture references peanut butter cup commercials. Where your chocolate fell in my peanut butter and it turns out that it's better together and we merged them together was and we have a bible. You know people come along later and they add some other stuff to it very differently about the what we know. Have basically as the source being the original bible. The oldest went from the north. And then so. Can you talk a little bit about a y. You think that versus the documentary about this is in be. What does that mean again like lexus. So what question like does it make a difference in terms of how we understand the later versions of the bible. I grew up with It as a in the beginning of my graduate school career. Many years ago hebrew university. I grew up with two competing influences. One was my adviser Israel can all who is a proponent of the way i re tax in the other was a barrel schwartz. Who's one of the best advocates of the documentary. Hype boxes But my differences of opinion. really You know are surely fundamental. I do use the same names or the resources on fundamentally it has like. I advocate an increase. It appeared on the chretien stories build on each other in the documentary. Hypothesis advocates Story is being mashed together. Like like i for many reasons. don't buy that happened. Wanted them has to do with editorial process. I don't believe it is a good. You know the way our scholars conceivable mashing sex together as notorial process that really was occurring in the ancient world And you know. And that's a matter for debate. I feel that i play you. Know uncover more through this period. I'm than through the documentary costs and right but again. I'm talking in probabilities and unpacking in extent. Not talking in troops. I don't think that my way of looking at it is the truth and not particularly attached to not you know like religiously to do hypothesis to the documentary sort of supplementary boxes which are not the only ones out there. There's a european fragmentary hypothesis as well. It just An automated that way And i would say that You know that that's probably a big difference between me and documentary Scholar hypoxia That i you know having countered in the united states. But can i ask you one question about how it might matter first of all if i'm understanding this correctly you're saying it. It's it doesn't seem like a most likely scenario to have to independent books in front of you and then to be basically writing a third where you're taking time from this from this it makes more sense to have one and then you're kind of adding to it. That's a kind of more normal way to edit something. So that that's how an editorial invasiveness that i don't think was a was a practice of ancient scribes that you have to do with my old biases every coming from a religious background I i admit that but But i do feel that if that's not a bad bias to have covered to these tax because people writing there were also people religious from a historical standpoint. I'm just curious whether you think about like. I think about if you under the documentary hypothesis where you imagine that both kingdoms northern kingdom and the southern kingdom spent some time independently creating a work of literature and then later perhaps when the northern kingdom was destroyed and the refugees came. They merged together these two pieces of literature. Then that gives you a sense that the southern kingdom of judah had a more vibrant cultural life earlier on than if you were to imagine that the north came along with their already extent document into this kind of backwater and they were the great scholars in these northern kind of hillbilly tapes. Where there and then they kind of wanted to add some stuff to it to help the merger so that kind of suggests that i would suggest to me that the south was a less impressive cultural place until later on in history is that is that is that does that is that where some of the implications lie. the north. the north is definitely. Just factually was the stronger. And more dominant kingdom you can tell you this is evident in biblical tax. If you look for which gives the the taxes the predominantly told from the southern perspective and southern perspective is. But you can just look at it. Factually through archeological remains through and you know population sizes in the north end towards alliances with other kingdoms and geria- the kingdom. You know there were times when i would say northern kingdom was like a middling kingdom whereas in south they're they're back fodder and you and you can have that perception that the south actually had more cultural you know. Just by the extent of what they hebrew bible And preserves but you know there's probably plenty of stuff that the northerners wrote that we don't have any record of you know in the judean evermore History to him and that You know i in literature and so they preserved stuff I just think we just have to have a lot of humility when it comes to what we actually know we know very very little of about the both the biblical works We can make a lot of assumptions. We can offer theories conjectures spent. What we know is not a lie especially about the northern kingdom. We know we the little you have so few tax from the northern kingdom. We have some tax In the book of the books of genesis exodus in numbers than we have a couple of northern profits and we have some material about elisa alicia in the book of kings. We're beyond that now. You know we just don't have You know the the north we know so little about it and this idea that that this is the way it was in the in ancient world is i think One that is one of hubris. Meaning we don't know what happened. We don't know how these people we you know we have to have a degree of humility about it and that You know the corollary of that is just giving value to to the present. It's just as fantastic. Jake it's just as as important true so as we get close to the close. I would just love to hear a little bit more if you'd like to share about your personal story and i'm curious how you came to this or what's it like to come from a religious background to academic bible scholarship. And then now. You're a rabbi in the humanist movement and i'm wondering if that's no accident you know it certainly for me also somebody who grew up religious and found the goal scholarship. I was already on my way out as where i think. A lot of Some of the folks that we've had on this podcast like shula m- dean abby stein also talk about reading who are at the bible as part of their journey out of orthodoxy and i'm just wondering if if that was true of you as well and now that you are humanistic. Rabbi how does some of this work that you do an act in your academic work. How does it influence the way in. Which you're humanist rabbi and i'm also curious about like how maybe the kind of work if there were if there are many many more humanist rabbis like you you know what made human this judaism become to the extent that it was really plugged into a lot of these issues. So i'm academic brat meeting. Both my parents are professors of jewish studies. And my background is Is like a strong second wave. Feminists background my mother was the first woman to give a phd in rabbinic sakib university. And so i really. I grew up with tax jewish taxes my bread and butter. But one thing my parents didn't ever do was theology. I was never told you know. God told us to do this. So we're doing it Usually it was. This is the way we do it in our family. And i was saying i came to my doubts through the biblical tax. I have been I've been very very attracted to the biblical tax from a very young age. I've been. I participated in international bible. As and i was really when i was in. You sheva when i was doing Matriculating from school in israel i went to nikita yeshiva. Very right wing nancy. She and the way. I was taught by. Will they really offended me because there are only specific answers. They're only these These answers to these questions. You can't have any other answers so dancers bit world you are allowed or the ones that far ship. The commentators Sade and not others And so that offended me. And i went in to deliberately went to school in israel where it was living that really was known to be the place of heresy hebrew university as opposed to Bar ilan university or elsewhere where he can study bible some of the more religious perspective. Because i wanted to be challenged. I and i would say that when i came in through the gates of university took to it like my mother's melt it was really just this makes sense to me but I came to you. Know i i will say i came to doubt through the tax. They started you know. I think it was after my army experience. I started doting national narratives. It was just like. I looked at the tax Wildly seeing this. I don't believe it. Like i you know. I don't accept. This is offensive to my values. I don't i. I don't buy into it and that attitude of don't say propelled me to ultimately to rewrite liturgy for myself on that. It's a very personal project. I've been doing it for seventeen years. And ultimately i came to the humanist rabbit through rewriting liturgy like i. You know that's been my big projects still is still constant emory writing miles tour which is the most classical of the songs hanukkah because i read the lyrics recently. And then i was like. I don't think i really and you know. I am married to somebody who's russia dr and and You know so comes from very different angles than i do. And so. I sing while sewer every night. And i'm like my knowledge of hebrew is sufficient to know that i completely go buy into that and so so finally like i've been thinking about dr had several worded attempts but finally on my fourth verse. I'm rewriting most sewer rewriting telling a new story is like That's that thread next. Would i do with liturgy and with bible to tell. I like to tell a story that means something to me and is attentive to the way things were or the way i am. I love the personal narrative that you're bringing in and i think maybe the last question this can sort of extend that you've talked a little bit about your rabbi ing and you've talked a little bit a lot a bit about your academic work in your approach to bible. I spend a lot of time wrestling with that duality. Like i wish that it wasn't so much of a duality. I actually would like in both directions for those people to be learning more from each other and interacting more with each other. I i would like people. In those scholarly debates about documentary supplementary fragmentary thin mints surrey like i would like them to learn more and interact more with. I don't know the on the ground quote unquote in jewish communities. Not because i think they need to like change their scholarship to meet them. But because i think it would be it would build some really beautiful work and the other direction. I would like people in jewish life. The rabbis cantors the jewish educators. The the jews and the pews that everyone to be interacting on more sophisticated deep way with bible and i think part of that is of necessity interacting with biblical scholarship. So i i'd love to hear from you from your own personal lens. Where you're like straddling in the one foot here. One foot their sense these two realms how might we approach the moving forward. How could we either breakdown this duality or look at it in a new way. So yeah you're right. I live in that duality on a on a daily basis. I mean I constantly this is part of the process of writing. This book was tried to like you know as a deeply personal process of trying to get rid of the jargon language that i use academic all those all those terms that people don't you know don't know they see their minds freezes up Tried to avoid that a lot in this book. you know. it's i would like to break that down. I don't i i'm not. I'm not an academic at this point in my soul. Because i don't i don't buy this ivory tower approach to knowledge You know the. I want what i learned to be meaningful to others. I want what. I you know the knowledge. I've spent so many years crewing painfully to have some relevance to the reader society which is part of a big reason. Why i am a rabbi. Want my knowledge to have ucs in the world. I mean i would say that. We know breaking that down. We'll be good. Academics finding more be more public intellectuals and and rabbis woah really needs to up their game. A little in you know understanding the biblical tax. My gig as a professor was Was in rabbinical school. You know and it was really you know. It's very important for me to rabbis. No ways of approaching attacks. And i would say and then the twain shall meet meaning and then you have much more productive conversations. Productive conversations is going to be the last phrase of this productive conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a fantastic conversation. My pleasure laxmi pleasure dan. This was absolutely fantastic. I enjoy yourself greatly and thank you so much to all of you out there for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this conversation. And we hope you'll tune in again in the future especially to some of our remaining episodes in this unit of episode looking at tora looking at bible it has been so fun so far it's going to keep being fund and if you wanna be in touch with us if you want to send us notes questions thoughts whatever you have please please do. We really appreciate it and you can do so via any of the following avenues i. There's our facebook page duties unbound. There's also twitter and instagram. All of those are just at judaism unbound for our handles. there is our website. Judaism unbound dot com email addresses. Dan judaism unbound dot com or lexus. Judaism unbound dot com. The last because we like to make is that we deeply appreciate any amount of financial donation that you're able to set aside and send our way which you can do judaism about dot com slash. Donate on either a monthly recurring basis. Or just as a one time gift. So thank you so much for listening in with that this has been judaism about.

abraham isaac sarah jacob alto california dan lee benson lex roseburg Usher silberman Makia acura abraham isaac northern kingdom san mateo city congregation of new york israel Abraham isaac guar abraham rushie beersheva erasure moses
Episode 260: The Bible...It's ALIVE!! - Ron Hendel

Judaism Unbound

53:48 min | 6 months ago

Episode 260: The Bible...It's ALIVE!! - Ron Hendel

"Support for this episode of judaism. Unbound comes from the family. Jcc in palo alto california whose vision is to be the architect of the jewish future. The oshman's empowers you to experience jewish paths toward a life of joy purpose and meaning through innovative jewish learning and wellness programs community building and initiatives to develop the next generation of jewish leaders. Learn more at www dot palo alto jcc dot org this judaism unbound episode two hundred sixty the bible. It's alive welcome back everyone. I'm danley vincent. And i'm electro berg. Today we kick off a series where we are looking at the bible specifically the hebrew bible the jewish version of the bible. And we're looking at it. Though from a variety of lenses that one might call nontraditional or certainly not the lenses that we tend to have in hebrew school or jewish day schools and that includes academic bible study right the way that the bible is studied in universities these days and also all kinds of other ways that people are studying the bible using the bible thinking about the bible for our contemporary world. So today to kick off the series. We're going to be talking to a professor of hebrew. Bible ronald hendel. He is the norma. And sam dahbi professor of hebrew bible jewish studies at the university of california at berkeley. He has also the author of many books on the hebrew bible. Some of them meant for an academic audience some of the meant for a popular audience in the latter category. Here's the author of the book of genesis. A biography which is part of the lives of great religious book series. That's been put out by princeton. University press. I always like to know when a book that we're discussing is available as an audio book on the theory that podcast listeners might like to read in the form of an audio book. I know i do and this book. The book of genesis biography is available on audio. Ronald is also the author of remembering abraham culture memory and history and hebrew and he's also the co author of a book on a subject that i find really fascinating that i think is really interesting and important and we'll talk about it called. How old is the hebrew bible in addition to this hendel is the editor in chief of the hebrew bible. A critical edition a new critical edition of the hebrew text whose first volume on proverbs was published in two thousand fifteen. And he's writing a new commentary on genesis for the yale anchor bible so ronald hendel welcome to judaism unbounded so great to have you know my pleasure so i wanted to start with the kind of scientific analysis of the bible. I think it's not necessarily where people generally start. But you've you've written about and spoken about the age of the material and the bible. And i think that's an interesting question and also it's interesting how you figure that out. So can you talk a little bit about that process sure. Yeah i co wrote. A book called. How old is the hebrew bible and Basic point is that the hebrew language has its own history. And once you get a grasp of that history you can see where when different books of the bible were written Sometimes there's different layers of composition and different biblical books. And so sometimes you can tell which is the earlier layer which is the latest layer. This is something that biblical scholars in particular have been interested in for several hundred years And so we wanted to make a strong case that there's more that we can say than previous people thought you could simply by understanding the language. So how verbs work and how prepositions work. So it's a little bit like If you read shakespeare you can zoom in on the details and see what aspects of the language of change between then and now and you can kind of do a sequential sort of thing so some of the stuff in the bible You know reads archaic kind of shakespearean stuff. Some of it is newer. And once you get a handle on how to do that then you can really tell you can tell the relative age of things and then if you look at hebrew inscriptions from outside the bible that are found in archaeology and stuff and so you know when they were found then you can kinda cross reference these different strata in the bible to actual dateable tax. Is there any evidence that there were people who did notice that. The language in the bible was different in different parts. Yes that's that's that's a good question in the talmud There are references to people saying well. We know that this part of the language is older than others And so they make a distinction between the language of the bible and the language of the rabbis for example. But certainly by the time you get to medieval times scholars in spain were learning a lot about linguistic inquiry from from muslim scholars who were studying arabic. And this is an earlier locution. This is a later locution. This is how you say it in the bible. This is how you would say it in the mishna so there's a rudimentary of awareness as a language changed over time. Now one of the things that makes this controversial in Let's say medieval times. You know to say that The book of chronicles. Let's say has a later vocabulary or later syntax. then the books of samuel and kings. You know you're treading on certain issues. that are complicated. And certainly if you talk about the torah the books of the torah if no one could say that you know. The book of leviticus has later strata of the language than big chunks of the book of genesis. Because at that time the the idea is that it was all written by moses or dictated by god to moses and so that was not really a thinkable thought so this whole area burgeoned in nineteenth century. Germany when you start thinking about these sorts of spinoza was really the first one that the blew the lid on this. That moses didn't write all of the torah so once that idea became less controversial than you could sort of patiently cultivate this kind of activity. But it's still of course controversial because lots of people still think that moses wrote the pentateuch and you can't say that leviticus is later than genesis. Somebody could hear what you're talking about. Okay the bible. How old is it you know. Is it this many centuries old. Is this a centuries-old. As many millennial is probably a better order of magnitude. But like i'm gonna be asking this of other people in our conversations during this unit to but like who cares. I'm not asking that as an attack. I actually care very much myself but if somebody's listening and is like okay. So like parts genesis. Are you know. Twenty five hundred years old versus three thousand years old or something like so what. Why would it make a difference to me in twenty twenty one which how long ago it was which century it was and you know. I have some guesses you know from my perspective. I think of certain books that are not the bible. let's say like the book of maccabees. Is one obvious example like that being written at so the book maccabi being a story about an actual historical set of events. I mean it's not necessarily a perfect telling of those events but like you know for us to look at that be like oh it matters if that was written right as the events were happening or a bunch after right because if it's written a bunch after then you know your there's some guesswork involved all kind of an obvious situation but with genesis exodus or the video or even other non tour books of the bible. So what who cares whether it's this many centuries old or some other number centuries old. Yeah i think you're totally right that the other issues that this links into Issues of you know what in this particular book might be historical or not or how might the past be being remembered and reconstituted through You know literary imagination of the author or something like that if you're decades away from event you know. Let's say the story of king david if you're decades away or even you know essentially away from the events. There's an expectation that you're gonna. There's going to be more accurate historical stuff because there's people around who remember that where people around who you know. For whom the they heard the stories about this and So there's a kind of cultural memory if it's written six hundred years after the event and then you can say well. There's no necessary history anywhere in the book. And we don't even know if king david existed and all this sort of stuff so if you're so if you're interested in questions of history then questions of how old this or that book is is absolutely crucial. It doesn't answer. The question of how much in the book of samuel is historically accurate. But it helps you think about that. It helps you. Think about that in an intelligent way. So you mean that me talking. As if i have. Knowledge of christopher columbus was doing is probably not like us talking because if we know exactly what that was probably comparable to a certain kinds of things that might have been happening in the bible like sixty years is what i was thinking of guests like five hundred years in change. Absolutely you know and if you think about You know. George washington thomas jefferson. These are people who are closer to us. If you want to learn things about these people you you would trust more someone. Who's either an eyewitness or living within a few decades rather than if you wrote that book today about christopher columbus without doing any research at all and you can say anything you want. There have been times when i thought about writing. Historical novel actually have a historical novel. That i think of writing that has to do with around the time of the second temple and i keep getting intimidated by because i realized how much research i would have to do on just like the smallest detail like what kind of clothes did people where what kind of houses did they live in where you know. I have to do all this research. Otherwise it's even though. I had a really good story. Somebody would come and say well. That's completely wrong because you didn't wear that kind of close. And so when i think about somebody reading the bible the question that i have is beyond the the syntax in the language can we tell based on other elements that are in the stories about whether the person who wrote it really knew about the time that it that it purports to be written at or is that really not a major part of how we do the analysis. Now that's a major part. I mean you have to get a sense of what sort of thing. The writer is writing the john. Rao is if someone's writing kind of a folk tale sort of thing about the profit jona and he gets swallowed by a big fish and things like that genre indicators that this is a kind of fable whereas if you have something like You know the books of samuel kings where you talking about kings presumably actual historical figures and there's actual political battles and there's people you know murdering each other and conniving to to get power and so forth it not only has more of a sense of various amila tude but it seems more like a report taj of actual political events. Now these are not easy determinations to make you know any reader of a book you you. You have to make those judgments i mean. If you're reading tolstoy's account of napoleon's wars sorta no it's a different sort of thing than if you're reading a text book by historian but there's other things that tolstoy might have insight into Because he's a keen reader of human psychology such that a historian would be much more clunky about so knowing or are trying to ascertain what kind of work of literature. It is. helps you kind of think your way into these issues. But they're all difficult issues. It's it's very difficult to make judgments about particularly details unless we have something outside of the bible you can point to you. Know the the assyrian siege of jerusalem. That happened around seven hundred of time of has a kaya. we have the royal annals of the assyrian king. Who was doing that. And so we have you know the biblical version of it and we have the assyrian version of it and so we can see an and actually the differ some significant details but they also agree in the general picture. When you have that sorta stuff you can really do a closest oracle analysis so it takes evidence and without that kind of external evidence. There's a lot of you know internal feeling around and inference and the chains of arguments and kind of imaginative speculation too. If i remember correctly. Correct me if i'm wrong. If i remember correctly one of the things that i read that really struck me. The most was that in the book of genesis for example. There's a lot of talk of camels. And if you look at the time that the genesis would purport to be about the camel had not yet been domesticated. So that kind of tells you well. It can't actually have been written contemporaneous or can't be. It can't be fully historically right because it's talking about an animal. That was walking around. That wouldn't have been there so you kind of know when it wasn't yes. Can you talk a little bit about about that. But also about for example in the linguistic evidence. I mean another thing that i've heard. And i and i wonder if this is correct that some people look at the stories in the book of samuel in book of kings the stories about david and solomon in that era and say well the the agenda of the book seems to be about solomon and making sure that people accept his kingship. Actually david son that he was really the right person to be in the But other people have said no the those books were really put into place. Much much later If it doesn't have words that are taken from for example persian. Then you would be surprised if it was written during the time when the persian empire was was occupying that part of the land because you expect like in israel today. There's a lot of english words. Because america's a dominant cultural force. So if you see persian loan words in there that doesn't necessarily mean that it couldn't have been written earlier because maybe some guy from persia came along and Told them some cool words. But if you don't see the persian loan words then you you suspect that may be. It was actually written before there would have been substantial contact. Is that how you look at language. That's one of the ways that it works. And this this is actually the same principle as your camel thing in genesis that if camels you know were not on the scene before twelve hundred bc. And abraham owns a bunch of camels. Then you say well this was written. You know sometime after twelve hundred bc and doesn't reflect an earlier period. You know someone's imagining abraham but the someone who's doing the imagining is from twelve hundred or later. You know if i see a picture of george washington wearing an apple watch you know i can tell pretty clearly that someone drew that picture pretty recently now and didn't and it wasn't a alive portrait that george washington sat for so these little anachronisms are little flags that say. Oh well we can tell. When this representation was done in books that we find a persian loan words. You can tell well that was written. You know probably during the persian period when the persian empire ruled over ancient israel. When you find greek loan words you can say oh well. this is in the hellenistic period after alexander. The great conquered the persian empire so this for example in the book of daniel. There's a beautiful little band that plays in one of the i think in daniel chapter two. It's playing for this babylonian king but the band names of the instruments are greek words. And so you can tell. This is a little greek orchestra. So the person who wrote that was writing and during the hellenistic period so these are the kinds of anachronisms that that you know. Give you a bright red line and tells you couldn't have been before this time and samuel. We don't have persian loan words. We don't have greek loan words. We don't have influences of aramaic grammar. Which is what many jews were speaking during the second temple period. These are some of the number of reasons to conclude that it was written before that period. I'm curious in this unit where we're talking about the bible. You know you just unpacked. How in say the book of daniel. Which has these loan. Words is a much later book than you know other books. You didn't talk about these. But i know that for example. Some of the songs that are in various parts of the bible the song of deborah. Some of the sea are often associated with times many many centuries before say the book of daniel and yet end of the day we're having this unit of conversations and we're talking about the bible and i'm curious like how you would approach that. After a long period of time this set of books were put into conversation with each other. You know canonized or whatever language we want to use and we treat them as one coherent thing but what you're talking about. Is that end of the day. They're really not. It's as if we grabbed something from thousand years ago in like a very very ancient form of english or maybe latin. I don't know what it would be the analogy here. And put that alongside you know emoji conversations in text messages now and put that all in one book and said that's the book like the bible so i guess i'm asking you know. Should we a reconsider how we talk about the bible and should we consider how the beautiful diversity within the text itself of its different time periods of it's different geographies. All that could not be like some sign that it's impure but actually like a sign that there's some really cool. I dunno trans chronological or trans geographic conversations happening or should we stop talking about it as one coherent thing and maybe talk about it as if it's multiple things. I'm curious how you approach that if you're interested in history and time and Cultural change and diversity of ideas. And things like that. Which which i am. I think it's very cool to discover that when you kind of open the hood and look inside the bible. It's a thousand years span of different stuff. The old poetry that you were talking about that was written in our what we call archaic biblical hebrew. And so that's from maybe eleven hundred thousand bc the book of daniel which is written in late biblical hebrew You know that's from the third and second century bc And there might be some little bits and pieces Even later the net. So that's you know that's almost a thousand year span worth stuff and not only. Is it chronologically stratified. There's totally different points of view. People disagreed about basic issues about issues of About religious practice about morality about politics And so two to get into the you know the motor and see the different strata and the different things that are going on to me. It makes the bible so interesting but at the same time once as you say once the car was put together with all these different pieces it runs you know. People read the bible and have read the bible and seen all sorts of things in it and but again to me that also is interestingly diverse because people have done all sorts of different things with the bible in the american civil war the bible was used to uphold the legitimacy of slavery. The bible was also used to critique the morality of slavery abolitionists and slave owners were both citing the bible for their purposes. And it's more. I think is more interesting when you see that. It has this complicated birth and life and development. So you just used the phrase that gets me really jazzed. Which is you talked about. The bible having a birth in a life I was struck in your book on genesis. You have a book that looks at genesis through the lens of a biography. It's part of a series that we love and judaism inbound and we've we featured others in this series in the past looking at different religious books as if they are sort of a person i mean. It's like the biography of each various book. One recent one we had was with. Vanessa oaks on the biography of the passover. Gotta and there's a way in which you could hear that as like. Oh cute like biography. But it's a book. It's not a person. But i also think there's a reality to that it's it. It is a biography. This is this gains a kind of life that sure. I'm not gonna claim is the same as organic life form but is powerful and in certain senses. You could argue. It's more powerful than those of us. Like the three of us in this conversation who actually will have a death a we. We're not immortal. Like some of these books you know. The bible has lasted for thousands of years. And if you think of that as a life it's life is longer than my life. So how do you think about sort of that. Life that death that development with the bible. I mean i know you. You talked about it with genesis in particular and i am curious about that book especially since it's the first one but if you have thoughts more broadly about the bible in the sense that you're talking about in the sense that it has become kind of unit in a coherent whole what's the life. What's the death. What's the development. Yeah on the one hand. It's a metaphor that a book is borne and then has a kind of life in the minds of its readers and interpreters in his innocence. The life of the bible is how it works in the life of the people who read it in the life of the people who live in a society in which the bible is a presence in that respect. It's more than just a metaphor. it's the way. The bible is enmeshed in the of western civilization both in jewish civilization christian civilization also islamic civilization. So it's more than just a metaphor. It's a way of understanding how the bible has kind of circulated and been negotiated and been The object of conflict and controversy and insight over the whole spam of of western civilization for thousands of years. So it really. I think a powerful idea. Now what i would say is that. There's a kind of double nece there on the one hand. There's a kind of original life and in here. I'm actually drawing on some ideas of Walter benjamin there's a kind of original life of the bible you know. The genesis came together and was written by this person. And that person. And samuel has this relationship to the life of king david and so on and so forth but once the whole thing is put together it then has what benjamin calls its afterlife or its survival in through its survival. It has a kind of another life that is layered on top of the original life. And i would say that. Even you know you talk about alzheimer's entailing a death. Well there are chapters of the life of the bible that entail the death of certain things you know. One example is the german philosopher. Nietzsche who proclaimed the death of god. I've got dies. That's the death of something. That's kind of important in the bible. And you specifically talking about the judeo christian concept of god but what i find fascinating. Is that the book in which he promulgated that idea is modeled after the bible the book is called thus speak zero through stra and zarathoustra is niches version of moses and pass this revelation on a mountain which is his version of mount sinai in zarathoustra comes down from the mountain and proclaims this revelation to the people in his revelation is that god is dead. That's a different revelation than moses gives to the people of israel at the foot of mount sauna. But it's modeled after the same thing that is to say he's using biblical concept and biblical language to proclaim in his mind the death of the bible in proclaiming the death of the bible. He's perpetuating the bible. He's reimagining it in the terms of his philosophy but the bible is alive and well in the hands of nature. So i i think that's a really nice example of powerful chapter of the bible which is both the death and a continued life of the bible. It feels like one could say very similar things to what you just said about. Those babylonian myths that genesis takes and re purposes right. You could say in a way. The author of genesis is doing with the babylonian myth of the flood. Exactly what nietzsche is doing with the story of the exodus. that's good. That's a very perceptive comment. I think if you were a student in my class you'd get an a for that that would be a good paying second guessed from the field of biblical history. That has given dan and a on our podcast. The first being. Richard elliott friedman. I gotta be plus or whatever. I said so like dan. Destroying friedman is a superb scholar. And i agree with his grading scale. Why i'm a fan of this area. But but i hadn't really thought about it that way before you know i so i'm curious. To what extent can we say anything. That is speculation which is not necessarily bad. But i'm curious about the distinction between speculation versus things that for some reason we know at an even better degree than speculation about what the ancient israelites were trying to do. With the myths that became the architecture of the the first part of genesis. Not only what you think they were doing. But i am also asking whether we can identify and to the extent that we can. What is it a unique israelite take on the mythology and the the ideas that were in their mill. You you know. But but really it was the israelites. Who took that step in a different direction and if so what was that direction in the babylonian flood story the hero is named pitched In another version is called atrocities in the biblical story. He's called no But we even have two stories one from j source and one from the or sorace if you want to know more about that. Read professor friedman's book on who wrote the bible so we have multiple versions of the flood story from bob bologna and from israel and you can read them closely and see how they are ticu -lating and transforming certain themes. I like your transition from nietzsche doing this to the bible to genesis doing this to babylonian literature because it is very much the same thing. The birth of the bible itself is a kind of rebirth of older ideas. You know if. God forgive me didn't just come from mount sinai. It came from older ideas about religion about creation about about reality that were circulating in the ancient near east. That one thing that is important in this regard is to realize that ancient israel was a newcomer in the ancient near east and they were self conscious of that. They knew that they were new. Young nation in the ancient near east. That they you know that. They emerged out of egyptian slavery and so forth. These are old civilizations that they're talking about that. Abraham came from war of the call. Dis that the tower of babel was way back. In the past they knew that ancient mesopotamia and ancient egypt had been around for way longer than they had and they knew that they were a young culture and we can see this in their use of older stories and older ideas that they are making their own. The babylonian flood story revolves around a conflict. Between two gods one is end. Lil the high god. Who's a little bit grumpy and humans. Make too much noise. And he can't get a good night's sleep so he wants to destroy all of humans eventually with flood to to get them to shut up so he can have a good night's sleep now. He's not depicted very admirably. The other god named anke is the wise god who created humans and he has great compassion for humans. They are his creatures. And he's the one that saves the humans from enke's wrath by telling his favorite human to build a boat and then at the end and little shows up and says why. Why are people still alive in says. You shouldn't have done this. This immoral and and lil is kind of a bashed and the other gods joined in. He says okay okay. This won't happen again. And he even gives immortality to to the flood survivors to mr and mrs fled survivor now in the biblical story. There's only one god in order to tell this story. The same god has to be the one who destroys humans in the flood and the one who creates them and saves them one of the things that this does is make a portrait of a god who has internal ethical conflicts. These are the sorts of things that we see our innovations even in the concept of god in the ancient israelite story. And you see it when you put it next to the babylonian story which we know is much older. It's older by you. Know roughly a thousand years to the biblical story. So you can see where things come. There's also details in the biblical story that show that they were borrowed or or descended from the babylonian story. So it's not just a coincidence that these two stories existed so that's one of the really wonderful things about genesis is that we can see these things and it's not just speculation. 'cause we have these older texts from other cultures as i was listening to you describing that merging of two guides into one two perspectives into one. I i'm curious whether you visited the creation museum which is near cincinnati and my family and i went there. One time i actually. It was one of the best days of my life but it was. It was so strange you know but it was a museum of a particular strain of christianity that really takes genesis extremely literally and you know for example. One of my favorite exhibits. Was this one that talks about. Who did cain mary. If there were no other people around and the answer is that he must have married his sister because where else with any women have come from so she's not mentioned but with the only parents that could have been adamant if so he must have married his sister. But don't worry about the issues that you might be concerned about in in terms of recessive diseases and whatnot. Because the whole reason why. We don't have incest today. Where against incest today is because of the fear of double recessive diseases. But those for mutations and when you're talking about the second generation of people that ever walked the earth there wouldn't have been any time for mutations so there's no concern that there's a problem in the jeans and so it's okay that a person married his sister and like the level of taking this so litter jellicoe christian. Now i'm excited about this. And i can make the argument. You know it was. It was actually like very almost like brilliantly offering that it it just struck me as wow like. This is not what the author of genesis had in mind. I'm pretty sure. yeah now. This is an amazing example. This is another chapter in the life of genesis or the chapter in the life of the bible. This creation museum in kentucky. It's one of my favorite things and it's on my bucket list. I haven't been there yet. But i actually. In one of my classes. I give people a virtual tour of it because people have taken so many slides of it and i have a a a student. Who's now professor at hebrew union college cincinnati. And so he's gonna take me on a tour at next i'm there it's an amazing thing simply visually that. This creation museum is constructed on the model of a natural history museum and there's even animatronic dinosaurs in there and of course there's the trick. Dinosaurs are in the garden of eden in k. Because you know these people believe that There's wasn't enough time. You know the the world is it was created in four thousand and four. Bbc bbc and so dinosaurs were simultaneous with humans. And such so. These people are fundamentalists. And they're trying to read genesis in particular as a scientific treatise every detail in it is is. A fact is a scientific in so to do that. The intellectual contortions they have to make are just mind-bending when the flood receded created the grand canyon which you know a long time to make the grand canyon like the colorado river didn't make that and six hours but they have to tell you how it did so they are doing these amazing contortions you know. It's like a cirque de soleil of fundamentalism. They are combining the life of the bible with the life of modern science. And saying see we can do a scientific explanation of the world using the data. That's in the bible and it's just an amazing performance. It's all totally false. But it's an amazing performance. What i would emphasize is how new this moment is gay. They think that they're preaching the old time religion but they're not they are using scientific language from the you know twentieth century and combining it with the bible. This is a very recent phenomenon. People never used to talk like this before you know. Augustine doesn't talk like this martin. Luther doesn't talk like this. john. Calvin doesn't talk like this is a modern weird fusion a rationalizing fusion of science like stuff science ish language with the bible. And it's just an amazing through the looking glass kind of world. I was struck by what you said about genre earlier. And i'm continually struck. I i read some scholarly pieces looking at. I don't even remember if it was biblical texans in particular or if it was later jewish texts but when you ask that question of any written work like what is the genre like a lot opens up because if something is a song versus if its pros that can be different. I mean i. I'm flashing to a conversation. We had a few months back with a guest where i argued that like limitations. The book should be translated in a cross stick in english. Because i think that the original document since it's written in an acrostic form that's like a core part of its genre like it's an so. I expressed my big hatred. It's not really hatred against all the translations that are not across that are just you know looking at the words of the text and putting it in prose form fine but i am curious to the extent we do. Now have this sort of five g tohra with a lot of different texts and authors participating formation. Like i am interested in the genre question of of what it might be because a lot of these conversations and a lot of jewish conversations generally when we talk about torah. I think we dwell on the stuff. That's like most easily digestible. Juiciest like the stories. Genesis is full of these beautiful almost like soap opera stories family drama etc exodus has an incredible narrative of exodus of exiting egypt. So much like such a high percentage of the torah is not that and it makes genre questions interesting. Because people forget the whole like half of exodus is a meandering conversation about the dimensions of the tabernacle and the the colors that are used for it and the materials that are used for it. And like if. I were writing a book now. In any respect it would either be a story or an arts and crafts manual. It wouldn't be both and exodus is both and leviticus. It's this rule book in certain senses or life philosophy book and then like oh by the way random story about navin abi who two sons of aaron being stricken by gut like quick meander to give you a story that's like three versus long and we could go to list numbers. I mentioned a bunch of times. That i find the story of blom in his talking donkey to be like this bizarre commercial break in the in the midst of wandering in the wilderness. In like. there's some rules here in some stories here and deuteronomy just decides. Oh we're gonna show reruns like but but they're actually a little different this time like we're gonna tell a bunch of the stories you've already heard but here they are a second time with some twists. And i'm curious like we could look at that and say okay there's different authors and there's different time periods so to ask like what is the genre of this whole book is kind of an absurdist exercise. We could also say it's now a thing. So what should we be treating it as being is it. An arts and crafts manual is story. Is it a philosophy book. is it all of it. What is this thing. Of course the most important part of the lists of genealogies Okay this is what everyone always skips over. But the genealogies are a central binding connective tissue for the whole torah. And i would say that. In some ways the genealogical structure is kind of what makes a book out of these stories laws architecture manuals for the tabernacle. It's all it's a kind of all encompassing story. It's an all encompassing representations of the past that includes all of those things stories and laws and how to manuals abbott. they're linked by genealogies. And i think that's very important because it gives a structure to it. It gives a connectedness to it. And even when there's different you know sub genres the genealogies all linked together in a kind of temporal connective succession. The and this happens beginning in the beginning. Mckay after the creation story in genesis. One it says these are the generations of heaven and earth when they were created this phrase these are the generations of starts in the creation itself. When they're you know it's not even talking about people talking about the things of the world when time and space begins is begins this genealogical progression That then culminates. In the torah with the laws of mount sinai and then the wanderings in the desert and coming up to the boundary of the promised land. I i want to emphasize that. The torah ends on a kind of beautifully tragic. Poignant note that. It's all building up to founding the people of israel in the land of israel that was promised to abraham and so forth but it ends with the death of moses looking. He's on a mountain looking into the promised land but he can't go into it the guy who's done more than anything to get people out of egypt and get them through the desert and they've been crushing the whole time and saying let's go back at least there. We had garlic and onions and stuff and out here. This just desert. He gets them there and then he asked to die. It's very poignant. This goes back to what dan was saying before. These are not cartoon characters these are complicated people and there's tragedy and there's happiness and joy and there's like unknowable depths to their characters destinies and stuff so it's an amazing ending for a book where you don't get there but you can see it. It's like you can almost touch it. You can almost taste it but then you die before you get get there. So there's a there's a a happy and sad ending to the book which is amazing way to end the book that starts with the creation of the world. That actually leads to a question. I've been thinking about and i'm curious your take as a scholar meaning if you really. If you really know the answer to this. I'd be very excited but i've also be excited about speculations. But my question is fundamentally about the hand of the reactor the hand of the person who is the final editor of this book. Let's say of the torah. because i'm thinking about shakespeare and how shakespeare took older stories and wove them together but then he basically rewrote his plays. And i don't think that you can really see the different strata within shakespeare. I'm not sure. But i don't think that shakespeare scholars really ceo. He took the language from this previous story in the spiritual like no. He wrote the whole thing in his language and he and therefore you can look at a shakespeare play as a single work of literature and to say. What was shakespeare really trying to do here. Whoa how is he trying to help you. Have you feel at the end. But i'm also thinking about that. It feels to some extent like the biblical roots. Actor didn't actually cover his tracks very well and maybe didn't even try and so i'm wondering whether for example at the time of the redaction of the bible it would have been obvious to everybody that this was a composite work that was more like a library then a single story or whether they were trying to sell it to the people as a single composition and only now later away the first to recognize two hundred years over many years ago that you know that it really is very much a composite and one reason i'm really interested in this question too is because in in the jewish world. I think it's pretty accepted. Everybody accepts that the tomlin is a composite documented and all of these conversations are constructed and didn't really happen among each other and these are people from different generations and at one point. I had this feeling like hey. Maybe the tom lead is actually continuing lexus. Talking about genre. The thomas is actually continuing as janjua of jewish literature. That the bible itself exemplifies. Which is this kind of collection of material from different periods. That's not actually pretending to be A single work. It's not that claim is only one of only a claim that was made in the post history of the bible and may not actually have been the original claim or even for a long period of time when we look at the work of the redacted. And you're right. There were doctor was not a writer like shakespeare. The doctor wasn't transforming the material that he read into what he wrote. The reactor was the the torah very. Persnickety was very careful in preserving as much of the source texts as he could. And we can see this. I mean the flood the flood stories. Very nice example of this. You can see he made some transitions in the j. Story noah brings on board seven pairs of all the clean animals and one pair of the unclean animals. And he does this so we can make a sacrifice afterwards. A all the species of animals from each species without all of those species going extinct whereas in the p. he'd just brings one pair of each animal but the paid version doesn't have a sacrifice because otherwise again any animal. You sacrifice if there's only one pair of each would go extinct so the redact or makes a bridge between some of these things and says oh they took seven pair this and to pair of that and you know male and female and this and that this softens those contracts and so i think the redact trying to create a single taxed And you can see where he felt that there was too much difference because he adds a little transitional bridge there but i think the texts that he ended up completing was intended to be something that was readable from beginning to end and it is because people have been reading it from beginning to end for two thousand years so i don't think people necessarily thought that this w- i don't think -sarily saw the seams between these different because the redacted did a nice job because the seems themselves are kind of like invisible tape that smooths out. The kind of harsh transitions from one text to another having said that. I do think it's clear that the kinds of discussions that the rabbis have In the talmud particularly about legal complexities were perceived right away. So for example in the book of chronicles. We see that they're reading laws. In the book of exodus that are from one source and laws and the book of deuteronomy that her from another source and noticing that they're those laws are different and they harmonize laws for example in exodus. It says you're supposed to burn the passover sacrifice on fire right you roasted in fire in deuteronomy. It says you take the passover sacrifice and you. Boil it in a pot with water. The author of chronicles is talking about the passover. And he says well look. There's two different things that people said here in one book and the book and so he concluded he concludes by harmonising them by bringing them together and say You roast no you boil it on. Fire boil it in water but on top of a fire. You what i mean and this is precisely the kind of legal judgements that the rabbis making the talmud to harmonize different biblical laws. Or to make laws fit new circumstances and so forth so this kind of very detailed attention to the bible and to details particularly in ritual laws is going on in the biblical period by the first readers of the text. And they're having the same kinds of interpretive responses and using the same techniques interpreted that the later rabbis are doing little things in dora. That when you look at them from this lens of we started with. How old is the text. But really more generally like sort of what's lurking underneath these tiny little linguistic choices or doubled narratives like when you open up to that so much beautiful meaning can be unlocked in a way that i think is important and so counter. What some of us you know initially thought which is that. Oh if you sort of break the idea that the torah is that factual science textbook that the museum ticket is like people just won't be interested in anymore so i'm just like really thrilled about that as a closing note. I'm curious are there any other. You know little passing phrases or moments in torah that somebody could read forty seven times each year of their life at synagogue or whatever and not notice some interesting thing about them is there. Is there anything else that you would point out to as a pivotal moment in tour that we might not have considered before as we bid farewell. Well that's a tough question. Because i would say the whole thing the way that the torah is written the style in which it is written the literary style is very terse gave the story of abraham sacrifice of isaac. It's just a one little chapter. It's like twenty verses long so there's a lot that is condensed and conveyed in very short sentences and very terse language so i think that i what i would say is to to learn to read the bible closely and to learn to appreciate the terse suggestiveness which is the deliberate style in which the bible was written is precisely away to find. All of these little teeny things that just can blow your mind. Let me just give. An example. from abraham's sacrifice of isaac. So he he the. There's just one dialogue between them. They walking for three days. The father and the son you know in the sun has would on his shoulder and just fathers carrying a knife and he's never been told what's going on and then all of a sudden is success. Something and it's a tiny little dialogue. It only takes like one or two verses and he says my father and neighbors. Sam says yes my son in even just there. They haven't said anything yet. But the the repetition of my father my son in the context of knowing that the father is about to burder his son had such poignancy and the sign says father. Here's the would. And here's the fire for the sacrifice. Where's the lamb in your heart. Breaks just that little thing and what's what's the father to do. Oh we don't need a lamb my son because you know i'm gonna kill you. He doesn't say that he says god will provide the lamb my son and the rabbis take that because they're very attentive to the details and the rabbi said. Well abraham wasn't lying or anything 'cause if you take away that comma. It says the lamb my son god will provide the lamb colon my son but he is kind of putting off answering. It's a kind of deceptive answer and yet. It's a heartbreaking answer. How can abraham say something like that to deceive his son and he's about to kill him so the poignancy the psychological wait the trauma. That's just in speaking of each of those words are so powerful and yet in one of the wonderful ironies of the story at the end got does provide a lamb. I mean it's actually a a but it's the in hebrew. It's the same category of animal. A cap rid does provide. But abraham doesn't know it at that point it's a tiny little dialogue between the two but there's so much going on because the biblical writer is stylistically packing so much in there so this goes here point. There's there's so. Many little teeny things. But i think it's deliberate. It's a deliberate result of the literary style of the biblical writers that the little things have tremendous kind of resonance that little coal in that you added is gonna affect my read of the abraham isaac story that i've read you know one hundred fifty times. Thank you so much ronald hammer for joining us. This has been a fantastic conversation. My pleasure and thank you so much to all of you out there for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode and we hope that you will continue on with us through this unit of episodes on torah and on bible as a reminder. This was our first crack at a conversation looking at the tour looking at the bible And we thought it was a great one. There are so many more coming your way over the next many many weeks so we hope that you will hop aboard and check out the torah and the bible from many many many different kinds of perspectives. So can't wait. Hope you'll join us. And as a last note we always love to encourage all of you out there. Listening to be in touch with us and there are a wide variety of ways to do that. I you can head to our facebook page judaism inbound second. You can go to our twitter or instagram. Also at judaism mbelle those are all the handles third. you can go to our email addresses. go to or send to. That's probably the right verb lex at judaism unbound dot com or danny judaism unbound dot com. And you can head to our website. 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ronald hendel samuel king david daniel abraham israel alto california oshman danley vincent sam dahbi hebrew bible jewish studies hendel christopher columbus tolstoy George washington thomas jeffe shakespeare samuel kings moses emoji george washington
Midnight Regulations

Trump, Inc.

18:00 min | 8 months ago

Midnight Regulations

"Each listener supported w nyc studios remember the dishwasher. She precedent boomed. They'd be like an explosion. Five minutes later you open it up. Steam pours out the dishes. Now you press it twelve times women tell me again you know they give you four drops of water and there are places where there's so much water what to do with it. President trump is not happy with some of the changes in fixtures and appliances in american homes. He thinks all of us have a right to be upset. Showerheads you take a shower in the water. Does it come out. You wanna wash your hands. The waters as amount. So what do you do. you just stand there longer. You take a shower longer because my hair. I don't know about you but it has to be perfect for. It's like one of his recurring bits in campaign speeches and he's even brought it up at some white house events. He has this like whole routine about water. Pressure in faucets showers and toilets propublica reporter isaac in store and he talks about shampooing his hair. And it's pretty weird but there's this rule at the department of energy that is kind of the technical legal policy version of that where they're basically creating a loophole for shower heads with multiple openings. Don't have to meet the same water efficiency standards as normal showerheads similarly. There's now a proposed rule to relax efficiency standards for washers and dryers. These rules are both under review by the white house which means they could be adopted at anytime. And what's kind of weird about that. One is actually. The manufacturers of washing machines. Don't want that rule because they already sell a lot of machines with a short cycle option. And so. They think that. This is really unnecessary. Isaac says utilities and consumer groups are also opposed because it could increase energy and water use. This is really just a pure ideological thing. Small government less regulation government bad. So you're in their five times longer than you're supposed to be you're used probably more water and it's very unpleasant experience. So we're getting rid of the restrictions you can have full shower so these rigs would literally addressed the thing that president trump has been talking about like in a jokey way like campaign appearances and speeches and stuff exactly the water drip drip hello and welcome to trump inc from propublica and wnyc ilya merits for almost four years. The trump administration has been making changes to rules and regulations especially those that it considers burdensome to industry now in its final weeks. The administration is racing to adopt more proposals. That could be felt for years to come in our showers in our basements and in even more consequential places. There are dozens of rules changes in the works. On lending to fossil fuel companies prescription drug prices immigration and asylum transgender rights. One rule could bring back the firing squad and the electric chair for federal crimes. Propublica has deployed isaac door f- and a bunch of his colleagues to keep track of all the changes that have a spreadsheet with more than fifty new roles largely being shaped outside of public scrutiny. As told me there's a shorthand for late breaking policies from a lame duck white house. There called midnight regulations. This is basically something that happens at the end of every administration for the last several decades and the idea of midnight regulation is that it happens at the eleventh hour so right before the administration. And there's a mad dash to clear everyone's deck of all the unfinished business and in some sense that's just human nature to have crunch time right before a deadline such as the end of an administration but it starts to seem more problematic when you think about it. In terms of there is just an election and the majority of people voted for a change and the outgoing administration has a several month opportunity to solidify its policy objectives which might be diametrically opposed to what the incoming administration wants to do. And it's going to kind of tie the successors hands In terms of what they're going to be able to accomplish so give me some sense of what. The trump administration through its agencies has been doing since election day. Say yes so. There's a range of things. Some of these. Things are rules that they've been working on for years and have kind of teed up in the final stages and so people expect that they're going to try to wrap those up before the inauguration and so some examples of that would be several rules out of the epa that they've been working on for a very long time and are in the the last stage now and the effect of those would be to make it much harder in the future for that agency to justify restrictions on pollution particularly air pollution and then there are some other things that are just kind of coming out of nowhere that cropped up over the summer and are getting finished now which is a really fast turnaround in the context of how long these things usually take and then there are some rules that are coming just after the election as an initial proposal. And so that's a really big lift. I mean it's basically impossible to turn something around quickly but the administration is still making noises like that's their intention. You said earlier that this is something that has happened in the past her other outgoing presidents have tried it. I guess with some success. What would you say distinguishes the way that trump is approaching midnight regulations and one thing that appears to be different are these shortcuts so shortchanging the comment period waving through the white house review faster than it normally occurs. And that's a double edged sword. Because on the one hand they might be able to finish more rules that way but they might also be introducing that could make those rules more vulnerable to challenge in court so they might not end up being that durable for that reason. The other thing that stands out is just how dramatic. A lot of the rules are in terms of cementing. The policy objectives of the trump presidency in the waning days and the immigration rules are really good example of that. They're taking a lot of changes. For example to the process for applying for asylum and these are already policies that they've basically put into place but by finalizing rule. They're going to make it a lot harder for the biden administration to reverse that. I want to ask you about the regulation which i believe you have done the most reporting on and this is about chickens and chicken processing so tell me what the proposed rule there is well. This was something. That was interesting to me. Because i did some reporting on it years ago. And it's kind of coming back now. So what happened was the chicken industry has for a long time been pressuring the ucla the department of agriculture. To let them speed up their processing lines because naturally it lets them Make more chicken and make more money and that word processing is so clinical. D really mean slaughtering or plucking or what so technically. This is the part of the plant that is called the evisceration line. So it's like a mechanical claw. Basically that goes inside the cavity and takes out all the parts that people don't tend to like to eat and that part is actually basically fully automated so there are some but not a lot of human interaction with that but obviously it. There's a chain reaction throughout the rest of the processing with speed on that part. Then you can't just have the chickens piling up further down so it does lead to speeding up the pace of work in the parts that are more manual as well. that's why i say processing So they're trying to go to one hundred seventy five birds a minute from from what number. It's currently one hundred and forty. And maybe i should add that. Chicken processing. plants have been among the workplaces with a lot of problems during covid and operators have sometimes acted in ways that seemed reckless around worker safety. So that I would imagine makes the whole thing a lot more complicated. A lot of people were very concerned that the us day was actually started issuing more of these waivers for plans to speed up when the pandemic hit. Because if you're running the lines faster than what that really means in practice is kind of having more workers working in close proximity to keep up with that pace of one hundred and seventy five birds per minute so there was certainly a lot of concern that the pandemic was underscoring the dangers of this policy. Change and so the. Usda actually considered doing this back in twenty twelve and ended up backing away from it because of those safety concerns but then the trump administration came in and decided to start issuing waivers so they weren't changing the policy as a whole but on a case by case basis if factories asked permission nicely than the usda would say. Yeah go ahead start running faster and now years later they are coming in right under the wire and saying actually we do want to try again to increase the speed limit across the board and they're pointing to those waivers those kind of pilot plants as evidence to say. It's fine nothing to see here. And this is one of those rules that it hasn't even actually been formally proposed yet. We can't read a draft of it. it just went to the white house for review so it would be really like lightning fast turnaround for them to try to finalize that before january but a lot of Safety advocates are very concerned about that because they know that the agency has been laying the groundwork for so long they know the industry really really wants this to happen and they see these other areas where the administration is acting really swiftly to try to finish things off before trump leaves office. We'll be right back. We're back with isaac on store of propublica talking midnight regulations. So i wanted to read just a couple more measures that i pulled out of your spreadsheet These are just sort of the summaries of the rule changes One would broaden the definition of independent contractor like people drive for uber or lift There's one allowing religious exemptions for federal contractors There's one to strike down washington state's new and rest break rules for truck drivers There's one to remove penalties for accidentally killing birds Want to narrow eligibility for food stamps. There's a proposed rule to exempt investment advisers from conflict of interest rules. And the thing that strikes me looking at all of these. Is that each one of these on some level has a constituency. It has a group of people who want to see things change. Yeah absolutely a lot of these. Are definitely instances where there's pretty clearly business special interest that wants something and the administration is kind of bending over backwards to make it happen. But they aren't all like that and it's interesting when you start to see sometimes a business interest in conflict with an ideological commitment of the administration. I think an interesting example of that is h one. B visas which are high skilled workers that the administration is trying to restrict as part of their restrictions on immigration of all kinds. But that's something that businesses really don't want because a lot of tech companies in particular really value these workers and think that making it harder to hire them we'll stifle growth and innovation so for those regulations that do get enacted and and go into force before january twentieth if a president biden then wants to roll them back or get rid of them. Is he going to be able to do so. So it depends. It's varies a lot. Depending on the rule in general overall there are few things that you can do one. Is that if there's a lawsuit and especially if a judge ends up striking it down saying there if there's a problem with how the rule was done then that's probably the easiest way. The justice department of the new administration can basically just not appeal and use that as a reason to wipe the rule and go back to the drawing board and redo it if they want. Alternatively there's something called the congressional review act which means that every time the administration makes a new rule they have to submit it to congress and congress has a window where both houses by simple majority can vote to repeal the rule this laws from the nineties and had only been used once until two thousand seventeen when congressional republicans used it more than a dozen times to scrap a bunch of midnight rules from the obama administration. Now that might not be an option for democrats this time around depending on what happens in the georgia runoffs and if republicans maintain control of the senate It would be hard to use the congressional review act to repeal some of these trump rules unless either they take the senate or they managed to get a few republican defectors to contribute to that simple majority other than that the agency basically has to start back at square one and build a new case for why the rules should change and that takes a really long time because they have to publish a draft proposal and a half to take public comment and they have to address all that public feedback in order to justify the final rule so that it can stand up in court if they get sued so kind of all the things that are happening now on a really compressed timelines that ordinarily take multiple years. That's the process that the new administration would have to go through to make a change afterward. There's kind of an irony here because president trump at least at the time that we're recording. This is insisting that he won the election. But we're you're telling me is a lot of the agencies. A lot of pieces of his government are acting as if he is not going to be president in a couple of months time and so they are really trying to get these rules done now. Yeah that's right. It is kind of the one way in which the agencies are actually acting like the trump presidency is coming to an end. But if you ask them about that they would say well we. We want to get this done before the end of the first term without you know kind of tacitly acknowledging whether there is going to be another term which of course there isn't well there is a window closing fast to get these rules done. What kind of tips are looking for. We wanna know about any policy that federal agency is pursuing at any stage of the rulemaking process between and the election that is consequential or controversial. We want to know about it so that the public can stay on top of it. Isaac really good talking to you. Happy thanksgiving by the department of energy did not comment on the proposed standards for washing machines. Dryers showers the us department of agriculture. Said it's following the usual processes on poultry regulations and the occupational safety and health administration did not say whether it's weighing in on that rule. Change a good trump inc podcast dot org to find out how to share a tip without securely and while you're there you can read isaac story on midnight. Regulations reported with lydia depuis derelict. Lisa song jake kincaid. Doris burke any waldman and sapporo say. This episode was produced by catherine sullivan editor. Is nick varsha. Ver- sound design and original scoring by. Jared paul our theme and additional music by. Hannah's brown matt kellett is the executive producer of trump inc. Emily teen is. Wnyc's vice president for original programming. And steve engelberg is editor in chief of propublica by milia merits. Thank you for listening. Happy thanksgiving and please celebrate safely do.

trump administration propublica white house isaac trump inc biden administration wnyc department of energy ilya Five minutes white house four years epa department of agriculture president biden one hand ucla us department of agriculture justice department of the new obama administration
World of Love w/ Isaac Mizrahi

Dog Save The People

24:27 min | 2 years ago

World of Love w/ Isaac Mizrahi

"Welcome the dog saved the people a podcast about how dog's maker live better my name is john bartlett and i'm your host i think ms raw he the fashion designer author an entertainer who's best known for his work in the fashion world with his own brands i think also has a wonderful new memoir out called i am which is filled with stories from his career in fashion in entertainment but also talks a about about how his dog's have fulfilled his life it helped him defined his sense of home purpose and contentment such an honor and a pleasure to have you on dog save the people so please i love that so i just finished you're book i devoured and i am you're memoir thank you hand it is a fabulous reid end what i loved about it i learn so much about you about year history where you grew up about you're experiencing fashion theater show business everything but you're beautiful love story but i love that the dog's were sprinkled throughout and are really woven into your stories and july story so i'd like to begin by asking you a little bit about growing up in brooklyn in about you're first dog but you had as a child pompoms sure well pompoms was my mom's dog i'm a big sort sort of standard apricots colored put like a a base colored poop right on my mom kept tom tom manicured he had sort of a painting nails i arrive down collar it's such a crazy thing yeah in the sixties you know like in nineteen sixty eight when i was seven years old like this was pompoms and tom tom was not very well adjusted and i blame myself because this is way before i knew anything about dog's or you know dog adoption or rescuing anything i mean this is the nineteen sixties under what went on in that world right at in the news god only knows what happened to animals but of course we bought one we brought up some breeder and i remember going to the breeders farm somewhere with my family and you know sitting down with tom i was a child he never liked us you never like people other than my mom and they were at odds to like he could never be housetrained he would always sort of do his business in the house right no matter what they did it was a crazy thing and finally one morning she stepped in it barefoot and that was it pompa yeah gone yes day when i confronted her as an honest adult you know like i was in my twenties and i said is it like were you just telling us that we sent away when in fact you kinda hadn't put down and she said no no no no he was released center way to an old couple in long island about this fabulous estate and it's like oh okay well in that case now i'm not kidding right like you think one thing and then who knows yeah right yeah and at some point i thought well you know i always love dog's i've always wanted a dog you know i think sometimes dog lovers like dormant dog lovers are afraid to get involved take the first step yes because they see it as this crazy like beginning of a commitment which it really is but it's really the hardest thing is the first step once you take the first step is like literally you know joy from then on right and so you know i have a really close friend called kitty hawk yes and she is great and she's a dog lover and a dog person and a rescue person and a nut person and just she's great she's great and she knew that i was kind of looking around for a dog and she went with me to she took me around just sort of different shelters and we even one day went to a pound and that was very difficult yeah really and that set me back like going to the pound really sent me back as i don't know if i can do this you know and then like around christmas of two thousand and she was like oh you have come to this one cocktail party because every amazing dog is gonna be there from the tristate area and i was okay right now dating this guy eric and i dragged him to this cocktail party right before we went to the the rock cats you went to the rock cats that night and kitty kitty was gonna have hundreds of dogs there and i you know it's just a cocktail party at this facility called biscuits and bath sure of course this kitchen bath and at the time on east forty seventh street of something and i kept waiting to see this parade of dog and katie was like oh just one second right she she brought me up stairs to this place where you play with dog yeah there's like a sort of a duck in indoor dog park short minutes later she came out with herridge is like this is you're dog she just said that she's like this is you're dog and it's like you know what kitty you're right this is my fucking dog right i just knew it immediately and i came home after the rock cats and i saw myra who lives upstairs meyer account and it's like my best friend at i sketched harry i just like little sketch is like oh he's so amazing he look like i did this catching it really wasn't exact replica of my dog and sketch right and the next day i would pick him up and we walked home and it was like this crazy like we never looked back right and i do remember i will tell you this i do remember within the first week of having harry i did feel slightly kind of hysterical it'll be too i feel the same way right you did right so you feel that thing what's like what the fuck you know and now the thing is looking at me and he needs me and he's going like he's panting is a little nervous about this you know i mean first divine and the first like two or three days and then all of a sudden it's sort of set in you know when you're dating someone and you go like what have i done i'm dating now after element i don't wanna right but in fact it just that just passed that just past like literally after about twenty four hours it passed and that was the worst of it right once i got over that it was never a bad and then i've never really experienced that it's really just the first time beckley like after the first three of four days you get this thing where you go oh no i'm trapped and then you kind of breed and he's okay no no no it's fine and that's never again you know yeah yeah i had the same experience when i adopted my dog tiny jim she called d i got him from north ramble leak and i called him as a guy could do this in the guy the trainer there's like just give it a couple of days and they call us back in those fine but i was like i can't do this i was completely freaked out i know i've seen pictures of tim what's he like he was a three legged a pit bull so roddy he's actually on my shirt and ryan yes andy hit three legs and he lost his leg on christmas eve so the courtroom tiny tim and love my right so he's inspired so so much yeah in me i understand dear i yeah i know harry was also the love of my life absolutely i will never get over harry and have pictures of him around and there was one picture that we took i can't oh there's one fm for sure but no harry there was a portrait portrait taken some magazine when i first got it was the most gorgeous thing and i would still thin and i was still young still like in my and he was so cute and i always dressed very szekely that day i remember i just like my hair and it was taken in front of some coffee shop i was dating some guy who is running a coffee shop and it was a great picture and then it wasn't something magazine had long gone out of print short right when he died which is you know sixteen years later i desperately tried defined that picture 'cause i remembered it in my mind's eye and i couldn't remember the name of the publication and it was gone for good and that you somehow somebody said why don't you call so and so she knows every damn magazine writer pass and somehow she located the photographer and i dot print or to our either injuring the sky yeah and i have the print in my bedroom view i look at that picture all the time there were few crazy portraits of harry one by this crazy artist named scott lift shitsu cell tower yeah but it's not the rank i mean we have one of dean in that context which took the hit something had yet that's what he does but i was like oh scott i really want like a sort of a matinee you know like a like a an excerpt from you know like a sort of hilarious neoclassical classical whatever port yet and he did he did harry in this kind of hilarious you know manet ash way you yeah he is he's amazing yeah he really so you mentioned in your book right around the time that you're show was finishing up and you were just again you're nervous about this impending void in their life and you start thinking about a dog an you mentioned that while you're looking for relationship you got something even better with harry near life in quoting you it says named a companion usa new questions in only gave love david roger beautiful quote well i agree with that i mean i'm i said it but true it's true i mean i ask questions of harry you know it wasn't just an incredible unconditional thing both ways and once i had a dream that in my dream we were talking harry carey you get it right like i get all this and i'm thinking it's like are you kidding me don't even question that how could you even question it could dream you know says beautiful i know i remember that if you know somebody walking harry in the village a lot yes i was just walking around with the dog like going to the dog parks and you know he became like this crazy companion from me all the time and of course i hated leaving him anytime yes that's still really hard you know and i i remember before i got the dog i would say the kitty like hey kitty like how do you go away how do you go to europe for two weeks and she's like well we don't and i thought oh okay well right you know kind of like i was ready tending towards this crazy like phobia of travel because as you know as a designer you literally are at the most far flung parts of the earth right you land and you're and you're crazy right yeah i'd say you understand you just get very hateful full of travel yeah yeah and so when i got harriet became this like good excuse to not go anywhere you know yeah and eventually it was a little easier if we go places and the thing is it's a little easier but it's still i mean it's still like weeks in advance of my leaving anywhere longer than three four nights i literally start to panic i wake up in the middle of the night like having major panics it's crazy so i love story begin with you in harry but then somehow and this is one of the most charming parts of the book and part of your story you were walking harry as you mentioned or around the neighborhood in every meeting in this and then in one night you must be special industry i did with during the day actually i came home i was at a meeting with my mom when she was selling her house with a lawyer which too much longer than i thought she said it would be in our it was literally three hours later and i was hysterical 'cause i had just gotten harry and i thought what is he done you know how shifts and i walked in and there is no trace of anything and it was such a good boy and i raced raced out the door with harry chicken for this long walk and suddenly across fifth avenue i saw arnold and he saw me and we made this kind of i contact and you know you make eye contact on twelfth street it's one thing but literally on avenue that's crazy right and so the next thing i knew i was almost on thirteen and six and arnold came running up behind me as like vows jackpot finally somebody i wanna meet on the street to a meeting and you know so it was in the process of walking harry that i met arnold and immediately started talking and there was something so genuine about arnold and so like sort of lovely about him and anyway you know one thing led to another and we've been together since then i mean we were a part for about four years yeah middle of the whole thing but we got back together in two thousand and five writing and we got married in two thousand eleven yeah let's say so how was harry with army when they met how this how this new person in your life the funny thing about harry is it he was always very protective and didn't like men that i dated in the beginning you know harry would like sort of lay claim to the bad anytime arnold came near the bed he would growl at once he actually like he bit arnold and it was so funny and like he actually thought it was hysterically funny like he wasn't mad at perry and he wasn't he doesn't think there's anything wrong with great laugh and that's that's a good so that's a good sign that really really yeah so when you arnold finally committed to each other you had harry and then he adopted a dog seen that's right we were together in two thousand and two thousand and one and then we broke up and he moved santa fe and then he moved back to new york and we got back together and at that point in two thousand and five he he adopted dean okay and what is deemed like what kind of dog is dean is a beagle mixed with a jack russell terrier he's kind of big so that he's like i say twenty five pounds jack russell it's bit yeah so more legal and he is awful i mean dean is a monster he really is he's a monster but he's just also so damn funny he you know it's like it'd be like having like a problematic like having one of those really really bad comics as you're pet dog you know it just investing you drink too much of messes you know that so that's why we think of as dean but you know dean came into the picture and immediately fell and what's harry right like they became very very good around grand they loved each other and the thing is you know in the beginning it was a little bit of an adjustment but they worked it out you know they just did they worked it out and so you know dean is now getting on dean is about fifteen fifteen or fourteen ford is though you had mentioned when harry died that it kind of confirmed the natural order of things about life you know john we have very very different backgrounds i think right in that i am from here and i'm jewish and you see the thing in a like it's a weird perspective that you have and i would love to eat your memoir 'cause i'm sure there's a lot of crazy shit goes on that went on in europe early life right but in my early life you know like we were taught things that weren't exactly so terrifically valid or like terrifically true for me for instance you know a lot of values that i probably didn't agree with us i've been a very confusing saying like sort of trying to adjust in the world i liked this idea of being in search of something worth not sure if something i do you know it's kind of like a great reason to sort of be in the world by when harry died it kind of occurred to me that it wasn't so much of an answer to those questions you know there wasn't gonna be this crazy kind of realization where suddenly i would be enlightened it was just this kind of crazy like a right i've been all along and kind of my perceptions of things my own perceptions of things were correct and i talk about it as being it was a dose of fatalism you know like all of a sudden i accepted stuff right that's what i got when harry he died i didn't feel sad necessarily accept devastated and i missed him and physically like depressed like i would cry constantly but i didn't feel sad or something it wasn't exactly sad because if you believe that then you believe that he's actually gardeners something when in fact he's never gone areas of never gone yeah 'cause he he's alive and me all the time 'cause he taught me everything i know about everything and when harry passed in twenty sixteen on may twelfth twenty sixteen i remember the date even you know three months later which and i thought it was very soon after harry died arnold found a picture of kitty she was like one of those fatto dog's dog zeo yes supporter rican dog and this is before the hurricane right into twenty sixteen so he found this picture on pet finder from straight from the heart every website of course yeah and her name was key top and so i decided change it to kitty in honor of my friend kittyhawk so usually introduced me to carry anyway so kitty landed at jfk on august first two thousand and sixteen three months after harry died and she came into to are alive and she was a little bit skittish john you know i mean that terrible lived in puerto rico she still a little bit like sort of nervous if the loud noise and also she's a collie so she's madly smart so sometimes she plays like skittish skittish she's not get us but she sort of playing with you a little bit and she's pretending to be scared and nervous and that's hilarious i have to tell you that's very very funny but some kitty came around in twenty sixteen she just appeared off the plane and we went to pick her up and then you know she's been alive and again she and dean originally had a moment where you know dean is of course obnoxious and he's male and female and right away she kind of set him straight yes i felt like the minute that boundary with sat they adore each other in my household as well my dog milley's the boss she's older and she's got two younger brothers angie does the same thing and she said some straight and that's the end of it and it would generally great i mean there's gotta be gotta be somebody do that in the house so sure now with their life you're in new york with arnold and you're dog's how can you express how they've changed her life how did they from data today how they hoped ju i was thinking about this because i was thinking about my life before the dog's before arnold and i was thinking about how incredibly quick i used to be and how is that every exhibit i never missed a show like any gallery i never miss any theater i never miss any opera i went to the ballot constantly i read everything you know i mean i still read a lot and i still got a lot of they're still see a lot of stuff but you cannot imagine you can't ever come close to like the crazy crazy quantities of shit i used to do and parties and trees and you know it's just a fact of life right and traveling we were talking about traveling yeah and then you get a dog right it doesn't make you liked those things less but you start going do i really need to see that play i know i'm gonna hate of serious at because impasse like you go there's something in order to hate it you know and the thing is originally with harry right there wasn't it didn't slow me down so much until i kind of god that i didn't like being away from him that much right and i don't think he liked it when i left right but he was such a gentleman and he was such a doll and he never made a big deal especially if i gave him like a bone with peanut butter and then it's like yeah goodbye but in fact you just get that it's better to be home with their dog it just is and like i don't know if it's cultural something like everything's stinks now except like streaming services why like just stay home or dog passively and returning intellect wally something we were just gonna float around on like pods with screens right i just looked at the spot from my dog you know yeah but my dog plural back exactly out of the dog's make you feel when your home with them you know i don't feel different but i feel oblivious to everything else unhappily oblivious but i don't feel more in la singer let's just you're you're like okay the world world is the world in this world is my world you know seriously and the thing is of course you know arnold is a part of this world new and he definitely has ideas about dogs and how they shouldn't be raised at cetera and we fight about that you know i will always be the dog off the table yari i'm just do it and i know but arnold doesn't like it when i see the dog so there's like whatever that sort of discord in the house a little bit but first of all i do think arnold is coming around standing by saying about like you have such horrible live anywhere life's short live ease the pain like he's the fucking bang and so it's not exactly more or less lovers something even though it's tons more love right that's not the issue here the issue isn't the more or less love because i was very happy before harry to have a great life to you know so it's not the quantity of loving the quality of something it's just the idea that you you actually have a world that's better than anything out there you know it's just better than anything out there love that's the thing yeah i love it do i think my dog's part of my family it's a hard question to answer because because i'm gay right and often then it's the cliche of gay people to not have actual children have like you know dog's and i mean sometimes cliches are very true that's why they're cliche right but i don't think of them as my family i think of them as like my world and there's a difference because family means there's like you know ahead of a family in this part of the family in this that that and everybody has a function but in this world that i have with the dog there are no familial obligations and you know it's like they don't have the act like children i don't have to sort of discipline them something they don't have to support me in my old age you know what i mean so no it's not a family thing but it's better it's like it's it's just a love thing it's a love it's a world full of love you know yes i love it how do we find you on social media well i am on twitter yes and also on instagram i am the name of the account is i am isaac ms right which is verified and there's another verified account called icicles right n y which is the corporate thing yeah my personal one is i am i describing beautiful so i say i'm again i'm so honored to have this time with you and so on her to do it through her hand thank you and you're book i just i encourage everybody who's listening to to get your book i am i assume is right it's a beautiful memoir and me as a dog lover as a fashion person as a new yorker it just it's spoke to me on every level so i loved it and thank you again for being here with us thank you so much thank you pleasure i love the things i really related to isaacs story story about fashion in these kind of inherent glamour behind this but more so would i loved hearing about isaac story is how his dog harry and then his other dog subsequently have really helped him find a sense of calm but sense of peace for this in real center that's based at home with his husband and i love that story because rummy to having my dog's really has helped me to kind of settle into my life i get up with them in the morning at five pm and then i take him out at night at nine pm it really kind of rounds out my life around so my day and i think i think and i really share that thank you for listening to this episode of dog saved the people podcasts about how dog's maker live better this show is a production of as it should be the content in studio it's made with the support of our producer and editor jack summer special thanks to a composer neighbor daniel lampard's were creating the music for the show you could subscribe the dog save the people on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you get

john bartlett brooklyn sixteen three months twenty five pounds twenty four hours sixteen years three months seven years three hours four years one second three days four days two weeks one day
Episode 300: Brunch with the Boys!

The Captain's Log with Host Brien Spina Podcast

50:51 min | 2 years ago

Episode 300: Brunch with the Boys!

"Look at this. We are branching it live. This is over here. They can't concentrate. They're so excited. They don't know what to do with themselves to actually be on the cabinets log and not be distracted or be deleted after the fact record my presence. I deleted needed it. You were too outlandish that time so i couldn't believe it. I've been on the catalog one time. I went back home to watch and i got home. I said where is it. I called the captain. I said where's he is like all we. I had to delete that one twenty two hundred views. It was too much yeah yeah too many people too many people seeing all the nonsense got into enjoying an amazing <hes> <hes> captain brian's vodka bloody mary here at brooks brunch. Yeah earning look gone orange church way. Welcome we surrogate. Time is here and my roofing construction dirt raise <hes> designed for a time water concrete free time coming out with charters to oh. These guys are good. So what are you eating today. What are you getting today. Get drank this guy's on a liquid diet. He's he's down like their shots listen. I'm gonna start with some captain brian's volume you. You have an opener. Despite these guy says he's gonna start with it. He's already started with three. How many more less y'all appreciate your coming liquid katie yeah my thought is is that <hes> if you're starting with it. How long are you going to keep starting with it because he just keeps going within. He hasn't gotten the food yet but they'll bring ski flown. Gotta go live that way. We can let anybody know hey. Hey listen because you make yeah. That's what i don't get so captain brian. You make the booze all right. You're the booze guys. Have you wanna be here and be mad at this. Guy's already had three drinks out of your model heavy mcadoo lebron's eastern is he is he needs nine of them if i'm selling i like you'd have nine of those ordered please. Everyone should come <hes> and drink now. I gotta tell you i've had a little bit of cabinet brian vodka but we know mcadoo brian's room junkie. You love the rum. You get a rap song about eight. No one even knows about oh. Oh hey whoa no no day world premiere you heard i is. We're gonna tease it. I'm telling everyone your law before our tony only bunny on my blog that we're going to start. Excuse me we're gonna world premiere this thing. It's a pretty big deal. It's doubt it really is another one of these bloody. Marys mary's. I'm gonna go with the chicken chicken and waffles and the enchiladas both yet. I don't just eat one breakfast. Ever how all right i'm going to go with the biscuits and gravy and that's it just the biscuits and gravy. He's skinny little ass now. It doesn't even more more than biscuits and gravy biscuits. Thank you god where do you get mail was daca d what's up buddy happy sunday on the side golden crispy and aside sausage. He'll don't a side of bacon to him in a bloody man awesome. How did you get my order was ideas ordering for fun telling these guys for fun you so i want in my order so extra i know i wanted chicken and waffles but i want my waffle light. I don't want it crispy. Don't scare and then what's in the enchiladas. Is it chicken or what sausage enchiladas. I think all right so i'll have the data's well but no onions in case. Well okay if bigs wants to kiss me. Here's the deal breath well. I've kissed you before and your breath is always thanks so then you make this is true and i'll put them in this time. Just sitting in between touch me burst what what happened. When i get aches was on the line with us over medium our number one fan ada always jessie. What's happening dr d in the how you're watching here in new york city right now. He's in the big apple baby one day. I want to grow to be like doctor. You got a practice it. All we need is about fifteen years of education. Uh-huh lyon. We flew back to be brian today because we was out of town just to be at brooks. That's true that is true. We did catch the g. seven <hes> we were. We were in vegas in late last night and took the g. Seven here this morning yeah you guys are bothers me personally personally. I took the infinity yeah ed. Thank thank you for letting me borrow your credit card every week. It record your credit card you. You know what's funny. I got hacked last week. I know seriously seriously uh-huh. I noticed the logo to understand why i did. I had to change my card number man someone in june someone in philippines like a philippine website site nine times. They tried to charge card and so i had to shut it off alive alive. You could share you do everything. It's live need an official report of the biscuits and gravy. It's common amy it's common. I'm gonna give you the biscuits and gravy report. I'm gonna give you the chicken and waffles. I did these sausage enchiladas inch alana's 'cause i just need a little actually need to test it and and then i- i wasted so don't yell at me because i don't eat everything. Did anybody get anybody gets egg rolls. We're going to get those getting cookie dough egg rolls for dessert. Yes credit card. I'm live on live yeah. It says love everytime you say lives love. We what we need is some of these servers right right elena. Is it elena she was on ellen well. This is much bigger than alan camman obviously if she was on ellen she's gonna wanna be on my show this this oh it's alana. What do i know i was listening yeah. I know alana last time ever do that. Alana a lot of you. Don't hear we shoot alana. Come talk. I show you must see alana's. Tell us come on. Come over here. Reliable live alive yeah. She's she's she come on with. What why are you sitting on my lap heels alana on along you're on ellen yes house on ellen and steve harvey euro steve harvey to they picked me. Why are you on ellen on i. I don't know they interviewed him. Talk show or the game shown toward the game. Show on the talk show game on the show. It was called make it rain. We got soaked with water rain. Yeah well my friend that i went on. She won twelve thousand dollars. She works here to her name's jackie jackie. Wait a minute rebounds dollars if you're to borrow one hundred jackie's grace jackie out to borrow money is i was gonna say jackie jackie's by breakfast. My thought was why we have why we have her on the other girl one jeez we need to upgrade and get the winner winner dating now come on you kissed me. She doesn't it's so so you were also on. Steve harvey yes house. That's awesome see powders the same day like the same trip that one day later the next day went on occasion ratios are free to i just went on vacation occasion. I'm like i wanna go see steve harvey ellen so i went to their shows and get the tickets like six months before you went on vacation or that. It wasn't that early. It was probably like maybe two months beforehand. You have to go on there and like requests them. They'll email you. They'll tell you if you bought it or not so you gotta steve harvey and he puts you on stage to yes. I did harvey's hundreds yeah. Did you win any money vacation. You made money on vacation did did steve harvey on you. Come on come on be real. That's right come on you. Got hit a while so you can be honest. Come on i know steve. Harvey didn't hit on me. He said i was beautiful. That media hit on you yeah. We're bringing. You think if you were ugly steve harvey. Would it invited you on stage own. He didn't invite people invited on the stage. Were there any invited. Were there any ugly steve harvey show. You have to see you have a d._v._r. On youtube i actually haven't even seen it. Everybody here is seen in. I haven't even seen it. I worry even find it. I don't know i can't even believe. Have you seen your cell phone. Ellen yes yes. You're out of your house. I deleted it off all right so this is what the producers do the producers watch all the people walk in and they're the pickers right so they picked the hotties to be on the show and then just randomly they say i want you to be on the show. Would you like to be on it is no random. It's not random. It's a simple solution said it was random because when you first walk in take a picture of you take a picture of every guest and then they put put it on the big screen that only the audience members can see and they just shuffle it and then steve he turns around he doesn't look at it and he'll say stop and so he said stop and it landed on on my picture dicing vegas yeah it was like you're the blonde when you're on the steve harvey show. Did you get any kind of like like <hes> motivational speech from steve does he come out and give like because i hear that he comes out and gives like we spent hours there because like his producers kept trying to get him on track like they're like come on like we need to do the next segment and he's like like this is my show. Let me give the did he give jump speech. We gotta jump you gotta leave. Did he talked about so many different things a lot of it was like comedy though well he was like you guys have to understand like i'm a stand up comedian. This is really what i like to do so he's in there. He walks up in the crowd. He introduces himself to everybody. He's a really good when you go on family feud with steve harvey what i viewed. I think it needs to be like a brooks of brooks family. We said we should do a brooks. Family feud entertaining. Tell everybody online fine how they can find brooks right now. Do you know online. Can they find us on instagram or anybody so they can instagram. She's watching you. Get this wrong. You're fires. I just say no. Sissy is staring right at you. Go ahead and give out the brooks information now famous on helen. You got a job for no. You can find us on facebook on instagram. I believe there's even a twitter page so go press brooks restaurant all right. Let's see brooks restaurant and nine. I'm going to try the chicken and waffles. What do you think chicken and waffles are amazing. They put some sissy nuggets on the waffles while more could you want and you don't need sir i. I don't know why but you don't need so it because right. She's preaching it on their awesome. That's what i'm getting later. That's all. I know that actually one allen ellen. Is she here. No she's nine here today. She got fired or she quit. She won twelve grams. You quit sure she's a ranch. She got she's an e._m._t. Now so she i think she kind of just parted ways. Dave chapelle has something you'd like to say man. I deserved for some sissy. Nuggets douglas sorry man sorry. Everybody's here for some sissy nuggets here for the nuggets i have to i'm lying. Can i see we know you with buffalo sauna. Now get same nuggets. Those are the ones i want. The alana nuggets. I alana thank you so much for us. You're you're on harassing you. Thank you for being a good sport. We had bond bud man talk to us. Your first appearance on the captain's log is welcome aboard. I'm finally here we talk about. This is all uh-huh why well we don't support me <hes> unless it's medical you haven't car don't you. I don't know oh. I think we have a car talk right now. Live on the podcast page at the same guys what's happening happening right now. Say hello all the sexy people out there in the world so i i want to say something. Man wants to jio sanders comic. We could set this up but first. Let's introduce everybody so people know where they can find you guys of course this big mama from b one zero three nine and the wild bunch bunch and bud man guys. How what's your instagram handle so be. I'm sorry big mama one zero three nine b. I g ama one zero. Three nine bud man on on the radio cooler handle to me bro i. I don't know sorry yeah. He beats you. He talked to you on our way. Better cool handle than me vigor and he's all like bud man big mama's just like a bunch of numbers. I'm not going to remember so bad man. You wanna you stand up comic. I it's something i've always wanted to do. You're a good impression is so you have three quarters of a down right yeah. I i got at least one part of my act. How about you stage presence. Give us a little example of god's presence how you doing welcome the crowd in. Tell everybody here that they're on the show. Thanks calming rusted over here. We go the wide open monkey dance ladies gentlemen appreciate everyone coming out tonight right now. We have a first timer. Come to the stage. You may have heard him mound b one zero three nine. I like to welcome the bud man here we go all right and then you do like you bust that a couple right yeah. What are they everybody for being here today. My name is bud man. If you don't want to know why i'm bud man meet me behind the building at four twenty that's right. That's that's an opener. Listen you jobs. This is if we're right in everything we wanna piece yeah. I mean seriously phoebe know what's up yeah. We'll just say you have to see my finance managers time. It's ten percent. It's ten percent each off the top. You know what i'm saying right. I was just going to work for food every every ten french fries you gotta. Give us one that we don't care. We'll take presented anything cheap each each. That's it's twenty after top back right away stats nice. That's actually a good visits frigate time finance. He actually rose off your will. We're going to talk about. We're going to talk about eighteen frigging time. Finance can finance your boob jobs. Dr gary mound own frigging five-man skin finance. Your vasectomy would dr dollar. Yes frigging. Finance can finance anything you need to find as all you have to do is have a credit score of five eighty. You're better make nine hundred a week and input to put off taking account a checking account. That's what the other one is well. This is pretty cool. I wasn't expecting this means. Do we have on the panel today. I know i had one. What did you have ever had a second. Really you. Just wanna keep me yeah. He just wants to keep popping out kids that i want more babies wow later later how many more babies seven wait seven or seven thrill talk. You wanna know something can you. I want you to lie to me came to be right. Now wanted to have three more kids. I'd have three more kids alive. I learned from it and this is something real g think some line but i'm going to tell the truth right now. Not all e highs. Sali's listen so you meet. Somebody like scott this go give a moment real quick frigate time. He's an amazing dad. His whole life focus around his kids kids all right. He focuses all around his kids. I met this dude and it made me be a better dad. That's the truth so i got finn. I got i got. I got other kids judge that i have out there but what i wanna do is i want to be able to let sarah the mother that she is to as many as possible but i'm just put it all out no more bloody marys. Here's how many sarah sarah come on over say. How do i talk to you. Ask you want to see who's gonna pump out next three kids yeah yeah okay so again busy with their busy within see but wasn't gonna come out as twins in the other one solo wait. What do you mean you froze in frozen embryos currently right now why you know i was thinking about selling it. I need to introduce you all to myself. That's your son. Come on over son see in. This is why cable all nor for meyer. Yes you are officially our organizing isaac. How are you sir handsome. Guy look at these is <hes> and wow. This is scary looking. I gotta tell you a retail you an isaac story. Let me take it is story. Are you ready for an isaac ready so isaac was at as god's house once right and and i had to go pick up scott's r v from fr- for bud man because monday was moved to town and scott goes joe gate it today. It'll be ready. You'll have it ready so i go over to the house now that keep him on for don's outta town. I go knock on the door now when i walk to the house it's unlike i've ever seen before. All the blinds are shut. Everything is shutdown like it looks like the houses destitute right but i know he's in there. I know he's in there yeah so i'm not going to do. Nobody some like wake somebody up in oregon partner. I'm not gonna cop. 'cause i know everybody answers when you knocked cop. This is a good shot. Yes nice ville now. I get that kind of glass. I'm talking about a big glass right there with triple double tall so is it comes to the door and he's like what are you want. Donna and i'm like i'm here to get the r._v. And and he's like no tomorrow by blog. Oh man i'm really i was like all right so i love take scott and i was like. I don't think i was supposed to pick it up today. Yeah you got to finish the story. I slam the door in your face did wait. We retain right now. I don't want to your door. I got a continuous flow slow. I'm gonna i wanna i i. I don't know i'm walking car he so did he interrupt you. What were you doing the house before you know most of the time you're in the backyard yard with the you know the hot tub and getting into my corona talking to microphone here. We wanna hear it so most people are still in the backyard doors hear a faint knock on the door so i have to get get out of the hot tub dry. Oh that's out of the hut big time big mama yeah. It's not important and he's on my face yeah. I'm i'm gonna ask you some type of way that i was even light your very confrontations. That's ridiculous crazy. Wow so the truth is coming out on the on. The cat is just really it. It was a did you know he was coming on announced. It was lucky to get shot and his ball. Yes thank you very much. I i turn around. Dallas wasn't drinking beer. He was drinking his book and premium vodka by captain. Brian autres watching what i wanna know and that's why i got snipped right. After how how long ago did you get snipped. How long did it gets them. Let's see heart is eleven seven eleven years ago. She was about three months pregnant eleven years ago. I'm thinking that's the same. She wasn't even delivered delivered yet and you wind gusts. Yes yes in a long march twelfth eleven years ago did they did. They use tasers because they used scissors on me. It doesn't even hurt but you know before before. That's the same guy he he says. No no scalpels. Here's no laser and know something else and i'm like well. What's the us billboard no. He does concrete so we walk up in there so there's other she goes eight tony stacey. You walk up inside the it's. It's it's done plant fair for ya planned parenthood planned. Parenthood is where we worry about. Plants cross pollinating planned parenthood. Is something something else listen to run his mouth four hours a day. I can do this. I guarantee it off process way. Come on keep going so you walk up and planned parenthood taking. You're dealing one. They're exactly when you get there four hundred fucking dude what the fuck yeah. That's what i said all right eight and then they all have hot nurses. Every one of them got hot in there and you know what happened. The nurses were very attractive jock strap on no man. I went back back in there. They gave us count the listen. The funniest part is there with my buddy and yeah he got his done to together. It was like a duly. No we didn't go together but you know he was getting it done because i said i was getting a c. You walk back there and they're all fine ass has nurses every one of them but you're looking at fifty two fucking guys and you're like what in the book so you go back to the first many more f bombs. Do you think we should put on them on the facebook facebook. I seventeen seventeen. How are you going to go to jail. He probably could free your time. You're welcome. Thank you bye blue show because that's the live signs yeah eh on air side anyway they go back. They give you this gown in the gallon. They have a little hole cut out in the front. Pull your nuts through a said. I'm like all right then then you walk into the next room so you you're gonna blue gown where your balls. You got it pretty much. They put the elastic band around you pull it up. Wait see that's so weird. You pretty is actually none on you asserting your nuts so they put they put it on on my on my weiner this what they did. She likes you more than me so call copying so tell you put so so they put it around there and they rubber bandini today stretched you way up right somehow pulled it up and he said well. You didn't nice job shaving. I'm thinking that worried anyway. He did a great job shaven. I upset everybody because you put me in. You know when i got there. They put me in jockstrap. They asked the trianon jockstrap who says try on a jockstrap. I'm like okay. I tried on. I come out and i go this. One makes eye balls house like chubby. I need another one and i was laughing in the lady was hot and then she would like nobody she laughs. She knew break character. I felt so bad. Ed doctor played you. He took them home smell them for a week so i thought that was funny but she had no humor now. Now i feel like the process that you guys talk about nothing. Dr dollar talks about my boys just went and got dollar. Got two percent we don dahler said he walked in total went limp and it was done you guys making. I'm not putting my balls to a blue gown first of all. I didn't have a blue blue gown. He straight out like right out them again. No they were scared of him. My nuts hang wow you did you putting out because you can't find anything manscaping around here a viable option to temporary birth control offer young man since myself. I if you're going to redo it. It's expensive. It's ten grand. I i didn't know that oh. I think it's ten k. to reverse it but it's i'd say she likes to stab. You know condoms no no female contraceptive. You know we've talked about the. That's what i want to freeze my sperm. Get him a second me. What i wanna have kids get not a bad idea. I mean we know that uh very risky again. A fertility doctor involved yeah but dan yeah because i know nothing not giving a real. I am not giving you real medical medical advice yeah. I'm just having fun. This is not fair everything house our food comments guys. Wait till you see the food. We're at brooks in north fort. Myers legal here comes a food. Yes look at this. I'm going to show you this where we at charlotte. Everybody watch big pages. What's this right yeah yeah. That's me bring it. Put it right there. I'll tell you we're gonna have bad boy. I'm gonna <hes>. I guarantee in badly you boozy. That's dickinson's you get oh gee we sons roles. Sir all right joe has some eggrolls. Let me see all your about to have their favorites rite aid best-known. You're out. You're telling me kill you right now. Which suzy nuggets up here good idea. I guess i guess i like to test everything back off and ed my i got scrambled rossin kevin. What's that guy's. Oh yeah right yeah. That's the biscuits and gravy. Oh yeah i got a buddy jo russell. I should be saying that to bacon. I got some older. I see those little those little chicken nuggets on my on them. Look these are good. I'm not kidding. He's a good y'all need to get down here asom breakfast because right now we got captain brian's credit card in his by one get one free free bloody marys on him in a limited mimosas welcome cabinet. Thanks appreciate that is spending my money. There's not much so i wanna feel like i got the card our body we all know nabbed avenue anyway mares sean sean. I'm gonna tell you something about kevin brian. Tell me and it's just as potent as cabinet happened brian from you you get twelve or thirteen of 'em. Let me say i use sauce. So what do you think about your son's plan and you're gonna get snipped for us an empty. You're gonna freeze the yup that they <hes> the seats. Yeah that's sound good. That's a good he's got a good reykdal eight us. Good you want jason. That's good you guys yeah yeah. Oh my god that's good you get one blatantness austat drink up y'all. I'm gonna go pouring concrete chris horne horny. Let me see eh agreed on the sunday. No trucks home depot's open. I guess for more concrete for why are you working on a sunday. I like a reason why i liked that biscuits and gravy. What's going on tony and stacy robinson yes. What do you think about that by the way somebody that has a group facebook page there the backseat the best us because there are a couple right yeah but but you are a couple of them. I'm not talking about them in particular. What do you think about somebody. They're going to have my wife to me. It doesn't really matter because i don't i don't care if what the deal is but i think i think that <hes> typically it might be awkward for some people but who wouldn't be awkward for another frontier so you're nervousness. No i don't care. They know they know we. I ask this because i feel like if you have a group facebook page like where it's like you and your husband. Somebody's insecure in their relationship. I mean i'm just saying yeah. I'd really do not really promised all right. Nope no the only thing is gonna come back. I think one hates to go online. Honestly i think that's what it is <hes> help. Maybe are not tell you what i'm gonna. Look at it from two different angles. I i already know what their angle one. Yes one hundred percent sure facebook page. Don't get fucking. One line or not doesn't matter one is insecure. They want to make sure the other one eight doing this or this and that all you think oh yeah absolutely but then on the other note you got swinger couples that share that shit they know that your d- waffles digit sir little dickinson sierra. Oh wow wait. Do you see this guy's enchilada coming soon to here. Is that all my god look at this. Wow wait. What is that she gave me yeah. I'm doing this enchilada. Oh and then biggs is doing the gravy so what i was saying about the gravy as listen. I love biscuits and gravy that has a real doc sausage flavor. I hate it when it's really creamy and no sausage and it's i like this one because it has a big chunk chunks of sausage and it's very flavorful and sausage gravy their biscuit this very amazing like flavor like this. It's got like a <hes>. I don't know what it is <hes> sauces. I hate them biscuits and gravy gravy this thing some amazing right now. Tell you right now all right. This is my. I'm gonna give you my diners diving and dr bud man i shit. Let's hear wow this. This looks great all the freshness of a business. I will be cremedas of the the gravy entertaining his thanks good come together combination of flavor and i think it was a little hangers as we know you're gonna snip. They just keep coming out right. Yeah wow enchilada delicious sexiest. He's a sexy on the family. I don't blame him. That's what i'd say bro. I i just throw it out there and tell the other roses sisters ain't happening big dogs in town bringing sexy back talk. It assumed that game see talented one in the family here other than you know my dad take a deep sixteen. I'd say whatever you want to fix. I'm just telling fourteen more to go home. I'm eating high as he actually extra. Is you wanna talk on the show of course she does. She does brooke so brooks is a family. You leave me now. Come on hang out with us right now. Salute what gets a steal i. I don't know if i like the in july or the chicken better but they're both damn good. The gigolo was going to be hard atop mount because jetson because the boat forget all i know. Is this a bar here. We drink chicken. Uh-huh damn good. Has anybody tried the cookie dough spring roll. No what is is it. Does it taste like i'd go lord. Can we get an order those. I'm already. I'm i'm so. What do you think i still have room for dessert. I mean value augie piece fatty skinny now. Why are you laughing rob boy from your building right. I've got gelo rob somebody you rob it on stage over it off the hook uh-huh. He has sorry i had the microphone away from my mouth was chomping but yeah i like rob. Rob rob is taking a position that is kind of a niche and made it mass appeal and that's what i want to say. Grab your niche mass appeal when i dig that well. He's doing good job. I liked it. He has my comments on and he he does <hes> he works hard. I don't understand oh my god. This is so not true every week every eweek the comics around be one three nine. Don't even lie to me. I what is the guy that was packed. There's one more right. It was yeah tonight to last night bo shows packed literally. The late show is out vulgar. Oh my god he's worse than freda aw shit yeah everything. Every word is dirty. How do you put multiple dirty words together he doesn't he killed it though i could show you yeah. Let's get this party started right now. Hey what's up. I'm being good into trust me. I would like to talk. I get gravy. What do you want now gold so he wants to mike here so before i leave the table just need a plug. My art deserve seven raunchy. Graham follow me on instagram at frigging dot art susie all my artwork. Maybe starting <unk> store soon. Oh excellent artist yeah paint spray paint really say. Let's get him to give yeah no. I don't want to learn. I want i want him to paint. I'm terrible. He learned on really spray paint cans all right for what so we're probably drunk wendell right heidi thus spray paint poster board and dude. I'm gonna tell you the crazy amazing the kind that you spend or what what is it was spray gains and its spray paint and like bowls and stuff sean. We're big fans. We'll get we'll get to see your artwork but a good one more time. Tell them how they can find. You can find me on instagram at free dot arts <hes> that's f. r. g. at arts awesome thank you thanks bigeye way to go big mama sleeping or you just enough food. Is it a food coma or you. Just drank yourself to death yeah i. I do think we should be married. You ought hadn't we've only been live for like a big play. Hey i was talking to sarah yesterday and she's telling me how she really want to have these kids right away. I think we should go to i._b._m.'s demar whatever's yeah that's what what i meant members ground ready. I'm gonna have swing damn at the same time you can have quads quads you what we're eating at brooks in north fort myers coming out against heidi heidi you come on out uh huh not. I only have hot followers every every guy and girl jessie doctor now how they have to follow. I mean that's the rule on this podcast doubled up one time. I love it a two and i think we should do more of these because we should do them all the time like it. It's fun and great britain next week. I will wait. What's next week. Oh next week i have. That's we have an engagement engagement all right no. I'm getting new hair. All you're getting your next sunday saturday sunday. You know it's a good three to seven day. What the fuck you getting done. You know a little you know the united embrace issue yeah well. You guys are second round that game right now. We will take a phone. I guarantee you eighty well. Here's a problem we're here will say a bald is sexy. Has i have a scar on the back of my head and it just that's the story yes historian. I looked like i got chopped like i'm tom talk shop right so it's not that high when you when you shave you guys have these nice sexy heads mine would kind of look like old halloween halloween thinking about it. I look at it yeah i do. I have a sexy damn well. It's like it's kind of like perfect. There's something on the what's wrong with that. You know it's terrible. I hate it's perfect. Let me see let me see. Both of you guys right. Now aged freshly shaved. You got me today yeah. He's shiny. Do all the sexy brian heidi's going to let you know thank you heidi. Thank you heidi. We'll take like a bull. Let's go. How do we get these bad lighting. What's going on with what happened fucking. Oh is it here. I'm plugging well. Somebody decided would live on ear. Oh oh how does that veteran look at us. We're like normal people. Now we are we are. Y'all have producers setup yourself this morning now. The thing is is our camera guy in our lighting crew. They were little. They're eating right now. During didn't understand they missed it. They missed a note that we went live this. This is the cookie dough. Oh spring rolls that look at all right. Hold on now buddy yes what cookie dough spring roll because vilna gilders. What do you think you guys like the cookie dough spring rolls. Wow i'm a big fan. I'm a big fan and oh my god. Thank you. Wow thank you look sexy men. She's talking about the ball guys oh inside if i do this. What if i if i go like this and the camera i look ball because the i put it right in my my my hair line. My handling goes back so far worried about airline. Go let ago. I used to worry about the airline. It's too late already signed up for what what a word about my eyebrows credit cards still work nose eyebrows. Let's try. Let's try this cookie dough spring. Roll the big and so you got what eggrolls more than this. What's the egg roll up no idea he doesn't always talking about. We're going to split this one apiece right here. Whoa whoa there's real cookie dough in that bad boy yeah scream. I don't understand it. I didn't know i didn't we know now woke. I didn't know i wasn't ready sunday over here and all my baking hold on now. Are you going to try this. I wasn't ready for a cookie dough spring roll bell oh she's like. I wanted to see how this works. Hold up. I forgot he's a little difficult to eat. Though admit i here you go cookie dough doggy breaking it. You'd recognize fast damn right. I just ate chicken wobbles already broken. Oh that's fire room. Is this the cook. Is this a cookie dough that you buy at the store that you can just eat right out of the can or is this something. I'm sorry but this is damn good. I'm gonna go oh for another. One door is how are you gary what's happening. Y'all want i told you is it what you order. What would you order. Wow wow i'm. I'm a big fan of the cookie dough string role. I'm a fan so he's not hungry rate. The jolie's film that i liked that i liked the camera. Strawberries wrestled ate ice cream. I i found out about this show by calling nine seven six food damn right. I eat a lot what i'm sorry i eat a lot. That's why the gym everything ride my bike otherwise that's just keep going to pick up on the women right. I have never picked up a girl at ah the jim jim i look but now you know clear ever seen the other guys out there yeah. I never picked up a girl to jim. I pick up girls. I'm not gonna say don't but at the gym i did not here's a white cat got tong guy talks for a living talks are living and he can't get it out. Here's how he does. He's i go. Hey come on down to my cabinet brian's. I not do that either. I promise you i promise you. I promise you i do not do that. You ever use the bar to go. Get no probably girls podcast. You know what right now. You're fucking lion on a sunday some bullshit. No it's nice. I do not never used. I'm captain brian from knock okay. No that's not different. I that you meant do i go to my own place and hit on the staff or the customers. No never you've never taken over customers. Never you better watch blow. Hello i'm envelope della he has he has he's tried one hundred times. Just like you walk in you play yo you know i am big mama know but y'all had to work for that shit. You see i go in and i'm just like free time in the pennies are dropping and it's a panty dropper got it. I hear you bro. I have to work. It's a hustle but no but no i don't i don't i donald they got kept him brian credit card. I've had a few advances on never once. Bella gives a thumbs up to the cookie dough so good right to use a big name. You get a girl to hook up with me no but they know that your big mom. I don't say like hey. I'm captain brian. It's going to be like some big once does no. I'm sitting next to liars. Well the l. all right then you're lying. I'm not what we got here. You're never for line no not lying about that never never argument to check with the from the bar. No now i have hooked up with chicks who have gone to the baugh. I've already previous because you were like go to bar this weekend. Enjoy cop. It's on me maybe yeah. Why would i not a nice guy. That's because i'm a nice guy. Love to the jones family of frigging time family have a great day edition all right guys well ryan have been your place place a lot and i've never seen you there great yes. I am there all day every day. So let's talk about that brian. Every time i go to your place i see your mom and dad there. I've never seen you there well. It's so funny tom i've ever she knew there was wild bunch. Live well <music>. I go to the club daily everyday and i work and then typically. I try to get out of the bride's parents now yeah jannine sand in the house out after my peeps. They're the best best but i try to lead by six but this is only a year and a half in the mall. That's the new thing now right yeah as the booze you know it's just you know let me lasts less available the less available i have more even cooler it just so podcast. Thanks for telling me down the river heidi. I was just saying how amazingly hot all of my followers is. Our and you're telling me that you'd never see me down. They're not at night. Never season ever met you at night. That's because i don't do that. You have to a habit that you could go and own a nightclub and you don't even have to go. We'll have great parents great parents. Oh great great staff. I've i have great amazing stab. Look at this little guy mini-me. Oh yes he's born to talk like daddy the he was like oh my god. That's why your wife had to go on facebook. Thanks progress. I tell you all to shut up guys listen. We're going to wrap up this episode of the captain's log. Yes yes <music>. Take your show. Everybody share this video right now. Let's get a thousand close talk. Shit here. We go kick outta brooks. Oh on baby. Just toss some cookies. I was not that was embarrassing on the show really can't control this around. Him said i'll take my clothes ooh. I i love it. Yeah yeah yeah so funny. You gotta say that uh-huh oh okay buddy we got you guys will listen. This is another episode. The captain's log live big mama frigging. Thank you so much for <hes> for me my guest for keeping the breakfast brunch spirit alive talk to this is my first time on campus had a great time fan wants me to shut up and get back to being a dead not every episode we get everyone. Grunk is only only random sunday morning. Episodes people get drunk the whole time on the cast. I'm in any tom by the way thank you guys. Good guys. We're out.

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Episode 250: Cosmic Diaspora - Jake Marmer

Judaism Unbound

1:01:36 hr | 8 months ago

Episode 250: Cosmic Diaspora - Jake Marmer

"Support for this episode of judaism. Unbound comes from the bronfman fellowship. Do you know what jewish eleventh grader. Who loves to learn and thinks outside the box. Tell them about the bronfman fellowship a free pluralistic leadership program for jewish teens. Bronfman fellows explore the rich tapestry of jewish ideas while making lifelong friendships with peers from diverse backgrounds. The program begins with an immersive experience in the berkshires. The summer before eleventh grade applications are currently being accepted and the deadline is january. Fifth twenty one apply today at bronfman dot org that's b. r. o. n. f. m. a. n. Dot org this is judaism unbound episode two hundred fifty cosmic diaspora. Welcome back everyone. On danley sin and i'm berg and last week this week and next week we're talking to some folks who have written some really incredible books that have come out relatively recently and by the way on the subject of books if you'll remember kickstarter to raise money to produce well it isn't process it is coming out. It's a little bit delayed from what we hoped because of covid and all that stuff but we now have a contract with the publisher. We have the manuscript almost done. And we're hoping it's going come out really soon unfortunately not in time for hanukkah but definitely in time for next year's kinda and while we're on the topic of hanukkah let me mention before we welcome our guest that we are in the midst of our hanukkah fundraising drive where in the middle of what. We're calling our hanukkah gelt razor campaign where we're really only asking for thirty six dollars from everybody who listens judaism unbound. 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Thank you so much for being part of this and now let's welcome our guest. Today's guest is jake marmer. He has a poet performer. And educator who has just come out with a new poetry collection called cosmic diaspora it brings together fantasy. Hard-boiled sifi jewish mysticism. Experimental poetics free jazz and dark. Deadpan humor his also. Just come out with a new album of poetry. Jazz clubs other experiments it's called purple tentacles of thought and desire and it features a number of the poems that appear in the new book with a baseline and a musical accompaniment it's created by the cosmic diaspora trio which features jake which is a project that brings together experimental poetry jazz and klezmer. In eclectic fluid and improvised manner cosmic diasporas jake murmurs third collection of poetry. The other two are called the neighbor out of sound and jazz. Talmud and he's also got another album called hermitic stump. Jake murmurs the poetry critic for tablet magazine and he is also the education programming director of the bronfman fellowship. He has a phd candidate at the city university of new york graduate centers department of comparative literature and his essays have appeared in the chicago tribune jewish review of books the forward and various other publications. We are really excited to take deep dive into science fiction and judaism infused poetry and sound. So jake marmer welcome to judaism and bounded is so great to have you. Hey to start a poem by jake marmer entitled on emma wasn't the light of the unpronounceable name wasn't the shadow of another future burning fingers. But the way the craft encircled her body with intimacy so ultimate it could only be achieved by a machine as mimicked the splintering emotional carpet. She enrolled every time. The noise dropped and for eight seconds. She was utterly alone. And as all space settlers ritualistic about this knowledge you're being disassembled into a diaspora of atoms. That no nothing of each other's existence of each other's entanglements before coming together again like water poured into a new glass but without any objective guarantee of continuity. Thank you jake. That was a perfect way to kick this off. We wanted to give a little bit of a taste of the poetry that will be talking about this episode related to your book Dan kicks off with the first question. And let's get rolling We're really excited to talk about your work both year poetry and music and also your work in jewish education to be honest. I'm not sure that. I know the right questions to ask about poetry. So i'm really looking for a fun. give and take. I thought that maybe a way to get started on that. I do understand is to know a little bit about the story of how you how one becomes a poet particularly someone who has in the beginning of your book you talk about having grown up on the steps of ukraine and reading slavic science fiction. And somehow you you came to the us and it's all the more surprising in a way that somebody who is an immigrant would write poetry in the language to which they've immigrated. I've always been amazed by somebody like just if conrad who can rate beautiful pros in in a language. That's nice verse language. And i and i'm curious about it in particular because i think about how much of what we're trying to do on this. Podcast involves people being able to feeling able to be part of a conversation and jewish. Which in many ways is not a language in which they've grown up and so i. I think that there's a connection there and i was just and maybe there isn't so i'm just wondering if you could tell us a little bit about about your story and how one becomes a poet. I think writing across languages has always been a jewish project. If you think about major. Israeli poets of sixty seventies eighties. Like all of them. Hebrew was their fourth language after german. And the addition russian and polish. Or whatever i think. For many centuries jews spoke multiple languages and and recreated themselves across multiple languages. Maybe it is a blessing you know for for a poet to right across languages because language is kind of a tool and one of the goals of a forty one of the aims thinks that poet is trying to do is to expose the structure of language and all that it contains within it like the dark subconscious of of of a society that that the language represents. So if you spend a little bit outside of it you're a little bit less reverend. You can be a little bit more playful with it. You can mess with an accent. It in ways that are that are a little bit more playful. That's like the story. That's that's more of like a commentary to the story which may maybe Is related to your question of like jewish language that what that jewish languages comment. I'm gonna mark this for maybe later conversation. It was making me. Think of something that i think lexin. I have discussed a few times on the podcast. I certainly have believed this for a long time. It's a little bit of a hypothesis. Meaning i don't know that i've done enough research to really say if this is accurate but it's my impression that a lot of the early rabbis in the beginning in the early days of rabbinic i actually don't think they spoke hebrew fluently. And so i think that a lot of their word play a lot of their way of reading. The torah and sources comes precisely. Because they weren't it wasn't their first language and that because they are kind of tripping over words in a certain way they find something there that people who read fluently just passed right over. So i don't know if that's if how that lands on you but it may be something that we can talk about. I think planning across multiple languages is a great pleasure and a great art. Yeah i doesn't make sense that it somewhere in the tradition that far that far back and the creative freedom that some of the earliest rabbis had taken mid rush. And tom is just so wild. How free associated it is how disconnected from like the actual semantic context. Sometimes it is. It's just like pure imaginative free associated stuff that you see in the traditions vary rich and fun and witty. And i think yeah. That's that's a great observation on an it makes a lot of sense to me. Goes all the way back. Yeah i'm really on that train. People who are facebook friends of mine will know that a solid like. I don't know half of what i post is just me putting for kicks because why not but yeah i do. Think that there's a deep jewishness there. And i think so. I think it connects to other elements of what you do with your poetry. That i think are we talking about so and by the way for anybody who loves jewish ponds. There's a great. Facebook group called shane upon him itself upon. So that's aaa beautiful face. In dish you know takes too long to explain. It ruins the joke but shine upon them. If you want to get your dosage daily of awesome any who back to europe poetry. So it's worth talking about puns as a lead into what i think is a broader truth about your poetry. Which is you do a lot with capitalization being different and a lot of words. That might be capitalized. In the beginnings of your lines are mostly not capitalized. But then when there's proper nouns there's like you do play with that you play with the visual of the page sometimes stuff on the right. Sometimes it's on the left. Sometimes it's like there's Stuff happening there and then in addition to that and this is where most excited the poems are not just the poems. You have an entire musical album that encapsulates or riffs on or adds to or itself a commentary on i don't know whatever those resonates few the poetry which is to say the album goes with the poetry. And i gotta tell you. I looked at the poems to start. And i struggle in general with poetry. It's very hard for me. I'm i'm a pros guy like growing up. I went through a phase where i really didn't i like actively talked to people and said that like i don't i don't do poetry. I don't like poetry because it's too like people don't say what they mean and it bothers me. I'm no longer in that place. But i do struggle when a poem meaning is not totally clear to me. I know there's also a beauty there but then the music. I opened up your album. And you're on their like gregarious. Lee joyously sort of with a wink in your. You can hear it in the music chanting this poetry and it totally brought life to it for me and added many layers and so. I'm curious if you can talk about like what's happening there. How these how the music and the words are working together from your perspective. As the artist the poet the musician all of those and also may be. This opens up a whole conversation about how we have the capability to create art. Today that like actually would have been impossible even a few generations ago like you. You couldn't have had a book that came with a full. I guess you could have a couple generations ago but let's say one hundred or two hundred years ago. You could not have had something like that. What are you trying to do with it. A great great poet david and wrote about the fact that things that seem most of on guard most out there most while we couldn't do this even fifty years ago et cetera. Those things tend to point back to things. That are most ancient. Would you talking about is a kind of a return to a rally for tens of thousands of years before literacy certainly before the printing presses and before this this idea of a poem as a as a written thing that lives on the page. Only right but this. There's there's this whole tradition. And i appreciate the were chanting that used because i certainly attempt to perform this poems not not just read them and the monotone and part of the. The pleasure of working together with musicians is Conceiving of myself as an instrument has somebody who is in in between the music and the spoken word. Poet lose kofsky. Who said poetry is an is an integral of lower limit speech upper limit music so lovely lovely definition. I don't speak math very well. But that's terrific definition. And so the poems that you see on the page of my book cosmic day asper are often laid out in a way that would lend itself to performance in two improvisations. It's a score in a way and my hope is that it is a score not just for me performing them but also for readers and listeners and something that That i did this book that i've never done before entering a few. Qr codes so some of the pages have codes that you can click on and they take you to a video of a gig a performance with my band or a solo reading or just like a few random videos that i made under my table. My kitchen table seemed like a great Sense fictional place Maybe the only one in my apartment that would fit the vibe of the book. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your experience. As a poet in terms of the the audience in how the audience receives poetry. Because i i also think that it's like i also think of myself as a pros guy you know and i struggle to read poetry and feel like i'm really doing the right thing and yet i am a huge devotee of leonard. Cohen is most people who know me know. And i think that and clearly leonard cohen was primarily a poet. People talked about him as potentially a nobel prize. Where the poet. Who didn't get it. Because bob dylan got it. But i think that what leonard cohen ended up doing for whatever set of reasons he was doing it. I'm not sure where he put a lot of his poems to music and created a inexperienced that somebody like me who would say oppressed guy actually was able to access and in some ways that like the most ancient thing ever that poetry was always. I think in its earliest days sung and that may be poetry as not sung is the innovation. But i'm wondering how how you think about some of that as an artist where there's a there's a question both of the art that you're trying to make for its own sake. But also that there's an audience there and that the audience accessing it is important great. Well i think what. Leonard cohen tapped into and where he was most profound affecting as is the sense of poetry as realistic act. And i think this is what makes or could make poetry relevant. Still i also wanna just say something about both your comment and alexis comment. Of course like well. I'm a pros guy. And very i think as a very normal and very typical common to make especially and american context. I think like different cultures. Place they're poets in different spaces course wonderful contemporary poet charles bernstein said well more poetry left for me but it really is. There are differences. Like there's a reason why israel had puts Sotos of poets on shackles like not presidents But poets project of building up culture with a certain sense of awareness of what that entails. And what what you need to do that. And the stakes stakes were high or like great jewish soviet poet mandelstam wrote that blessing and the curse of being a soviet poet. Is that poetry matters so much. You could get killed for it. Which is what happened to him right so it is. It is both the curse of it that it's dangerous you'll life is in danger but it's also that like people listen to it and care about it so much that can you imagine somebody like getting getting car like worse thing. You're going to get pissed off blog post In our. I don't know if anybody does but all all the tweet tweet whatever. It might even be a blog post on utter irrelevance. The context in which the critic might take place i wanna talk about some specifics of cosmic diaspora folks listening out there. Trying to get a better sense of what the content of of your work is. And i'll be transparent with you. Dan and i were talking about this. Like it's not an easy book slash work slash album to encapsulated in a sentence or two and be like yes the message of cosmic diaspora is this. And so i'd love to hear from you like to the extent there are like messages or particular goals of your work. Here what were they. And also just for people to get a sense who haven't yet cracked open the pages or popped in their earbuds for the music slash poetry like what actually is happening page by page of cosmic diaspora your spot on. There isn't a specific goal. That's that's easy to summarize. I've described the book as immigrant. I poems with the shadow jewish mysticism. Something because i needed that. The that like a sentence or half sentenced to briefly. Describe it. I guess the way that i see the work my own work but also. The work of any poet is to kind of to stand at the intersection of of languages. And i don't mean like just like english and hebrew and russian and french or whatever types of languages types of discourses. The black working in the an jewish world are being actively jewish. Like you get you receive one kind of language but i also live in the silicon valley and there is a like the language of silicon valley is coming at me and it is in in my mouth or i find it in my mouth where i read the news. I find a certain kind of language in my mouth. I am at the intersection of all of these streams of language. And i stand on this street corner and and to collect it in into a second an into a moment to bring it together to swirl it to play with it that's closer to the purpose it it's not about a specific genre and then i'm also interested in forms and many poets are in mid twentieth century l. Let's american poetry. Specifically people have abandoned forms like sonnets ballads. A these sorts of very specific forms people started inventing forms talking about forms as as kind of natural or organic or in some way in in correspondence with the way that one's mind works thoughts work. And that's really important. Because you're sort of shaping rhythmically the the way that you think. In the way that you're laying out the these these ideas and i want to look for four forms. I'm very interested in jewish forms specifically. My first book was called jazz talent. I was playing with the munich form of discourse and musicality of the energies of it. In my second book. I worked with the new as a form so in this particular book. I'm working with seifi as a kind of a a a form almost shape or set of vocabulary and ideas that are coming coming through and just like seeing what happens. If if i do that in this form push some buttons in me and provoked me to say something to unearth something about the world that i'm inhabiting. Why immigration experience whether it is jewishness of the twenty first century will whether it's some kind of a larger story of jewish migrations since since the beginning of of of all of our migrations the called cosmic diaspora out this late. Like in in a way i am. I am alluding to that into the continuous snus of their impulse. I'm really glad that you said that. Just now about forms because that helps me formulate a question from your previous response formulate show and even thought that the poet and i didn't even know it that the That when i think of jewish texts in particular when i think about the bible i think that people mistakenly think that its pros with occasional poems thrown in like the song of the year. Or whatever you know. There's certain things that are in the bible that are clearly poems or songs and everybody imagines that the rest of it is pros. I think it's actually something between you know. And the where. I i started thinking about. This was when. I read the book understanding comics. Which is a graphic novel length in style. Book about graphic novels. And it's about the way that a great graphic novelist creates graphic novel. Basically one of the part of it talked about. Why is it that we find more sketchy kind of comics like the simpsons. Why do we find those more relatable than comics that are very well drawn in that and he basically explains that. It's because of that sketchy nece. It's that as soon as something is really well drawn then it becomes someone else and it might be an interesting story about someone else. But it's not about me because my own experience of myself is basically to is in the mouth and so a smiley face is actually very relatable because it looks like me and so i've used that for many years to think about the bible and to think about some of these stories particularly like from the book of genesis that are these very sketchy stories. They're almost as little as you could possibly say and still convey the basics of the story and what that strikes me as. It's almost like a poem but it's something a little bit different and and that's where it gives the sense that we have a dichotomy between poetry and prose is is problematic because it doesn't help us understand that there's a continuum from let's say the most vanguard poetry to less avant garde poetry t ultimately song to than these kind of sketchy images from the book of genesis two then something more pro z like the story of david in the in the book of samuel you know and then ultimately to like a novel thinking like what we're trying to grasp at is. What is that jewish. What does that jewish mythology. What does that stuff that actually deeper than a novel that somebody wrote and more understandable than avangard guard poetry and yet. It's something really important for us to be able to kind of grasp and create an reimagine. Yeah i mean In addition to that comic book richardson's great by the way great book. Yeah yeah. It sounds excellent Famous essay by our where T juxtaposed the story of the kedah. the binding of isaac story from the bible with homer and homer american narrative. And which he says is not simpson's since the simpsons came up the other homer yes. Thank you That's that's true. Simpson's would be more in our snapping if would be more on the on the biblical side and so it's it's more sparse. What he says. It's fraught with the background. I love that phrase so because so much is unsaid. An unspoken by key goes through the akita story. The binding of isaac stone says. Why doesn't say anything. Would offer was thinking in that story like he's traveling for three days. What goes on in his mind. What doesn't it say a word about that. In the meantime like in homer feast is described in every frigging detail. Like they're eating this and they eating this and and there's the source and this god comes in. That guy comes on his shield. There is a picture of that guy like there's abundance of detail and this stuff is not in these like really difficult fraud stories and they pull you in and there is a sense of poorest nece. It is created in the way that begs to be interpreted. That sucks you in. And i think good. Poetry is attempting to accomplish something similar to create a sense of forest. And of course you can't you can plan it. You can just like right. I'm going to write something so that people will lick fill themselves in so there are so we'll just like leap onto that page and in the white spaces will position itself. This is not something one can plan alan. Ginsberg road that prophecies not about saying on such and such year the bomb will fall on this and that city. It's more about creating or writing or saying something that in a hundred years somebody will read and suddenly feel a deep connection to like that is what prophecy is very much true for i think biblical biblical prophets to and and so then the question becomes how to get yourself into that state where he can speak in that way where he can think in that way where you can create something that will have the potential and that legacy and i don't i don't have answers to that of course but Taking risks is of doing something that you're not sure is right or do not sure is working or is going to is going to have an effect doing something that not is even happening like is doing something that's real or am i just imagining that. I'm doing something. These are some of the things to try at least a to experiment to allow yourself to be surprised to relinquish control a little bit. So i'm going to contradict myself. Maybe maybe i'm right. I said i'm a pros am a pros guy. I was talking past tense. When i went through my most anti poetry face but i do connect to some poetry and i actually deeply agree with. Dan said about bible being poetic and poetry. And i want to bring up a specific example. And you know you just brought up prophets. I wanna talk about jeremiah and specifically not the book of jeremiah but actually the book of lamentations which is attributed to jeremiah. So i have a bone to pick with everybody who translates the book of lamentations and everybody who talks about lamentations the book of lamentations. And if you don't know this it's not your fault because all the translators made you not know this. The book of lamentations is an acrostic is an acrostic poem or at least an acrostic work I think it's an acrostic poem. And here's why there's five chapters in the book of lamentations the first the second and the fourth are all twenty two verse across dick's from octave basically from adc. Bruce style and then the third chapter is actually three across in one. It's three of olive than three of bet than all the way. Three of tough. And then the last chapter the fifth chapter it sort of takes a break. It's still twenty two verses so it's still sort of a similar rhythm but it's not an acrostic so you've got six twenty two six eight z's olive detectives in the first four chapters and then one shibat one break. That's twenty two verses but not an acrostic so my belief is that the specific content of the words in lamentations is not the point. It's not the point we talk so much about. There's this word chosen for this reason. There's i actually put myself through an exercise because i wanted to make my own aspirational translation of lamentations and didn't look at what the actual words set it. All all i did. I said i'm going to write in the cross stick. And i'm going to pick basically the first word that comes to mind for each letter of the alphabet and not the i. I'm not going to over think it. Because that's how i think they wrote this. I think the point of this poem was the book. Limitations is really sad. It's in the aftermath of the destruction of the temple. The first temple it's meant to be this is really terrible. There's a lot of terrible things happening. Every form of our society is collapsing and the specific words were chosen so that i will. Oh it's the start of the chapter. So i have to pick an alef word. I guess i'll go with whatever phrase fits the alef phrase and then bet gimmel. And i don't think they were that thoughtless about it. But i think in our quest as rabbinic jews who want to find every last kernel of meaning in the specific word and the specific letter we lose the fact that oh sit with terrible catastrophe for a bunch of chapters from a to z literally from olive atop. And do it seven times which is the the biblical code word for sort of a complete cycle. And you have seven of something. That's like you've gone through a complete thing. That's why they're seven days a week years in a cyclic. This is the message. And then we chant this book and we get so bogged down in this verse. Says this so. I guess i'd love to hear from you. Could we be pushed in that direction. Could we not play this game. Where i think about it. Sometimes as if the pneumonic device every good boy deserves fudge in music which teaches you that the e g b d and f are the lines on the trouble. Cliff like jews. We were to look at every. Good boy deserves fudge and said i the reason we chose. That is because there's a deep relationship between the properties of fudge and how we go about the f. in the scale in the we chose every good boy deserves fudge. Because that's the letters that makes a phrase that helps us remember. Oh yeah that's the notes on the scale so that was a rant. It's not really a question but how could we. Maybe apply the teachings of your book at least to me in implicit teaching. Which is it's not about this precise word. It's sometimes about the mood. You said it sometimes about the overarching tone that you set with the music. Like what can we learn from this and apply jewish. -ly i just want to point out to our earlier conversation by forms like the rant the and we just witnessed and had the pleasure of witnessing this very jewish form of discourse i think very poetic and great like this is where the cultural mythic forms come from and how they manifest themselves there you are and i think and all the form or its manifestation may be is like not only you'll lamenting lamenting alphabetically like there's some kind of like really interesting cultural oddity there a and maybe you could say okay well. In in the time of destruction like the alphabet is holding down the structure holding down. Like you know the thing that we know is solid. Which is the alphabet and of course a juice especially jews always held language as sacred center of everything of experience but also lacks continuing journey of exploring jewish forms of the counter rant. Perhaps great or beginning of one. Where i would say. Well you know you're right of course to look at the form and say well maybe form here is more meaningful and is conveying a larger sense of experience. That's that's in there in in the tax. But i would also push back and say i think every word is is meaningful ultimately because each word in in this sort of texts contains infinity of meanings. This is the way that i read. Poets i love. I don't think they necessarily meant every single word to be there and they they meant every meaning that i see. But that's you know that that goes back to what i was saying about. Texts being porous and text being created so as to be interpreted in a way you become if you're poet you become an interpreter of of your text the reader of your own text. The minute poem is finished. first. Of all i just want to insert that in my generation. It was every good boy does fine. That every good boy deserves fudge others say every good boy does fine. Yeah and. I wonder i wonder about that in the context of this conversation because if one or the other gets remembered and becomes the one i mean it's funny when you said every good boy deserves fudge. I had this feeling of like. That's what it is you know and there was some sense that okay. We're gonna have a cultural push me pull you about this and eventually one of them will prevail or maybe it already has but in any event like i was thinking about jake what you were saying about prophecy if i understood it it was like the prophecy is determined one hundred years later by the stuff that remains. You know the things that that people look back and say. It turned out that that was prophetic. I it sort of confirmation of that idea that there is you know man as a prophet zone city or no one is a profit in their own time that almost by definition. That's not what prophecy is. But i mean i think the way that i think about that question of the across acrostic. I wonder whether it's both the form. I actually didn't know that or hadn't a new it a little bit about lamentations sticker daily. Some of it wasn't acrostic. I didn't know that they were seven. And the whole thing was an acrostic. So i appreciate it. Stream media notice kit. Yeah the mainstream media saying hey all the more knowing that and i fundamentally believe that the that probably every word does matter because i kind of feel if jake took that form he would take the form and he would make sure that every word mattered and so. I'm wondering if you could help us understand that a little bit more in terms of both how you work as a poet but also. I think that we've been talking on this show about judaism as an art. Form that that judaism as a material. Like i think people misunderstand judaism they think. Judaism is a great renaissance painting that we should only go and appreciate an and maybe we should learn to sketch it so that we can get as close to the perfect painting as we possibly can as opposed to understanding judaism as a lump of clay or a pallet full of paints and in every generation. The point is that you take the material. Maybe you take a certain form but you take the material and you create your own are using that material what gives continuity is that. It's made out of the same material not that it has exactly the same look as it did in prior generations. And so i'm wondering both in terms of how you think about that with actual art that you do and then also as jewish educator and his jewish thinker you know how do you think about an by the way and somebody that i know has enlisted other artists in your work in jewish education. Thinking about wh- what do you think is is a way in which we might take those learnings from art and apply them to jewish future. Ism soon we. We were talking about new monarchs and forms. And i thought i share a piece from cosmic diaspora. It's called and the form that it is exploring as the form of hebrew alphabet and is playing with that. I'm going to read it if that's okay. The most okay. Alaw is for alien bet for the great alternatives to elia nation. What are they vet for the inevitable. Leeann nation from self from marks gimelstob for the game plan breath. Donna leeann eight other alliens. Daulat face it. You got dealt ancestral language. You don't even speak. Hey for hail look is darkness. Valve is poet. David meltzer's void angel. Volve flea in my heart zayn and rules of creation. Hep pull it over your big alien ears. Tet taking alien to bed you come in. The sky cuff the cup of alie nation runneth over lookout lamad flame. Four elian for memo's middle march. Good book moon is dawn of elian summit. Same for all you got myopic. Cyclops elian is on pay piotti toothbrush tidy side. You're on thorne and cough is for cough. All aliens got at raisch for head rush brain freeze dead giveaways of an alien shin is for wakeup kick tof for the vat of the wreck and pride may we all rise from first time snaps on an episode of the duty bound. Podcast real to have that. Thank you take you know. I guess what. I what i wanna say. Is that this. Jewish art thing is not a set of specific characteristics. You can't quite blood. Boil it down to seven or eight. Thanks to say like what is jewish culture. What is jewish art. It is more. I think of a frame that you bring to an experience like i don't set out to create jewish art. That's not my goal. I'm writing poems. And i am fully in the experience of writing poems. The less of a goal. I have in that the better. It is for my poetry. I think this is true for other artists as well you can bring a frame to. Let's say you readings of kafka and talk about like well. Here's a writer. Who did not mention jewishness at all in his works. But yet if you bring the frame and you start looking and say like all will jersey and then the mouse folk story like this is about the the little shuttle kind of a jew. Culture that he's he's riffing on and Of course art spiegelman you know. He wrote his mouth as he told me he goes inspired by that very story. So you bring that frame all of a sudden. You're in the space of jewish art and commentary on on the jewish experience. That's profound or let's say the work of joe late and who you had on your show not necessarily every single poem or a orbit of writing is addressing directly to the jewish experience but You know with the frame of her memoir being folded. Jewish journey between genders. All of a sudden. You are in space where you are dealing with the jewish experience. What if you have a very thoughtful young jewish dancer. Who's dancing in the nutcracker performance. Let's say so then nutcracker no of course not but then what what is the experience over jewish dancer and then you start asking questions that set of questions and you looking through that frame all all of a sudden it becomes like a profound jewish artistic experience. I also wanna ask about you. Know you have the side hustle as a jewish educator as somebody who's running a jewish leadership program or the education part of it and i'm wondering though about that in particular that you've you've written some articles about how you had to pivot when covid came and you know this particular program the brooklyn fellowship was supposed to be one. That has a big chunk of it in israel and you ended up doing it on zoom and you talk about an and i think that my and i think that the theory that i'm floating a bit is that artists are those that we should be looking to not the question of whether there are is also jewish art. It's it's about enlisting artists in the process of re imagining judaism in a time. Like this when we're dealt with The with covid but but also in this time that we live in more generally when we're looking at what they lappy caused the crash of rabbinic judaism and that a lot of people are troubled by a lot of people are freaked out like. What do you mean. It's it's going to be ending. And i i sort of i tell the story. I sort of like imagine this early. Rabbi coming into the temple there right before it was destroyed. And saying i thought this idea for a new kind of judaism you know. And they they ended up describing the kind of judaism that we all have and they're basically laughed out of the temple. Because it's like so crazy. And i sort of wonder whether when you had to face a situation where the program in which. You're working not so much as an but as an educator has to change suddenly that somehow you're in a better position to be able to do that because you know you do this all right. I'm outside of it and it's like okay. Yeah so that's it. It's just a new form and so we just have to try to rearrange the material in this new form jokingly said the site ha- has you know it's it is In a way it isn't it isn't because it's I see -education as very much intertwined with my identity is as an artist. But you know with with art First of all you. Have you know something that that we call in the jewish were coach leash ma And that's a really important word a doing something for ulterior motive but for a higher purpose for its own sake that that's very true art and i think it's also true of jewish education. That's that's worth. It's salt when when you are in the space of engaging with it because you're taking great pleasure from the ideas and thinking together with others your in a you know what we talked about this ritual experience of learning and thinking and being together the pleasure of the conversation. It's very similar weather. You're reading poetry or sharing artistic work or you're delving into these classic jewish texts When i think about Jewish educators. That i i love the most Who have been most profoundly affected by dave all had kind of a performative edge to them in other words on don't sat out to performers But there is there is something to it somebody like. Let's have the bizarre and berg who i Admire so much and I think she would resist the idea of performance but anybody. Who's been to her lecture. Certainly i have experienced something. Like almost like trance-like state of being in the presence of her thinking and and conveying teachings. That's that's not just like the matter of conveying information again. The this word ritual is is coming to mind. This is like the ritual of teaching and learning. And i think she is embodying teachers of the past. She's imbibing the tradition thinking out loud publicly. She's also bringing the wealth of scholarship to that moment so she's not quite a performer or or artist pro grammatically but it just happens that way because the roots of art and performance go to that very same place and coming long way back to your question of what artists could bring to specifically this moment. The moment of crash. Is i think something like playful irreverence and also a sense of sacred. I love this thread of applying this to jewish education and to our future. You know that's what we love to do here but I read an article that you wrote As part of your side-hustle jewish education endeavors. And i loved it. And you talked about something. We talk about a lot. Which is the whole question of like adapting things from. I'm going to say in quotes in person to online say in quotes because i actually think online can potentially be a kind of in person just in a different sense so i wanna talk about that because you set up a framework. I think is really helpful. Which you said. It's not that we're like looking at in person and trying to take all the pieces that happened in an in person kind of program and see how. What's the closest we can get to that in zoom. That process is doomed. Because from the start. You you're you're. You're doing active replication. That can't actually replicate put the link to this article in the show notes. I love that. And i've been playing around lately with. I think that we really need to investigate this. Because that's how most jewish digital programming is still happening. People are still starting from the place of okay. This is what it's used to look like. This is what it's generally looked like offline on the ground. How do we get close to that. And so i guess. I'd love to hear more from you on that article. Like what have you learned in migrating some of your work to this digital context following with dan's like to what extent do you feel that that's sort of drawing from your own experiences an artist and just sort of more broadly. How should we be thinking about this new digital context for jewish education for jewish art in new ways. Great i guess. I would say that i have gotten a sense of a broader and more complex. Self that isn't just the real life quote unquote self but self that exists in multiple places and across different mediums. All at once and this is the strange thing about this is almost like a mystical thing about it but if you if you really just like deconstruct the moment like the moment that we're in right now you Blacks and dan. And i were all in our In our homes but also in this strange space that we're certainly together in virtually and on each other screens and also elsewhere like we're existing in multiple places or the traces of us exist in multiple places at the same time and we can interact across these multiple places in other words. And there's this just as a sense of even stranger kind of a self that is spread across different mediums. And and i think that has been true for quite a while but it took. I think pandemic to really drive this home. Just how how strange it is. And how sci-fi it is you know back to back to sifi There for a second. But i think that's absolutely worth investigating and i think as as we pivot and we are exploring this the space that we're in what's necessary is it's just bringing all of all of what you've got all of all of the things that you know and love that work and being prepared to improvise and to interrogate the medium. Also just like to question what we find about ourselves and who we are because we're familiarized. We're in this new kind of space and it's because we're disoriented some real stuff that's normally buried under like the discourse and forbes and repetitions of everything everybody else said suddenly you're so disoriented you might actually say real experience something real in this strange place and this is a an opportunity to improvise an open up. It doesn't mean i'm glad about it. Maybe a little bit. But i would still just prefer to be in person i think and not just because i'm more used to it but i but i appreciate i appreciate what i can discover And and i think we probably will you know decades later. Just look back and say well. This was a pivotal moment. When so many things changed and we didn't quite go back to the same place but to just a more hybrid state of who we are that we have come to recognize. Yeah you know when you said the word. Discover i it. Got me thinking about a little bit about this series that we have coming up on the podcast on philanthropy and i was thinking about the landscape of what philanthropists tend to fund. And how they think about it. And that and i'm just thinking about how art fits into that because i have an impulse that it's not just this isn't just a dig. It philanthropists i think in general in the jewish community. I don't think that we are thinking about art and arts value and it feels to me like one of the places where artists valuable that. What you just said helps me wrap my mind around a little bit like these are explorers like these are the people who are going out and just like exploring things. I actually think in some way to think about covid as having created a little bit of an enforced. Artistic experience on all of us is kind of an interesting way to think about it that now not all of us have risen to the occasion and maybe some of us have been as artistic as we might have been but at least all of us were kind of we we weren't. We're not really able to just kind of hang back and do what we've always done that. That wasn't an option. And so i wonder as we reflect on what a lot of us have been doing over the last eight or nine months whether that could potentially give us an appreciation for what artists do all the time. Even in times of crisis that are potentially preparing us for crisis. And i'm sure the answer will be no as soon as covid is over. Everybody's gonna go back to what they were doing. And but i just wonder whether there's some way that right now we could capture some way of of an and i think it's friday because on the one hand we don't wanna talk about art as a means to an end. I totally agree about this idea of what you called. Schmil like art for its own sake and yet to fail to see artists who may not be doing it intentionally for this reason but who nevertheless are out there exploring the possibilities and you know some of them are the ones that are going to be looked on in one hundred years and and like you say people will say yeah. That was the one. But if we don't support the endeavour all then the odds are higher that the one that would have been looked on one hundred years later as the one. What will never happen. It'll be stillborn. It'll and that's that's what in some ways gives me the most worry about the future and not just the jewish future. I'm also thinking about the future of america. And so i think at the end of the day what i'm asking you to reflect on a little Maybe if you want to is this question of whether it's jewish philanthropist or jewish organizations or some other element within the jewish community could do a better job at nurturing a world in which artists and how right a nurture it like what would it look like to have a world in which people that really are doing this kind of art and the cutting edge of what it means to be. Jewish could actually do that work. Yeah thank you. I wanna emphatically risk to this to this. The sex question. I think what's going to matter to Communities and and and you can certainly say it's a certain kind of education that matters it's a service. A set of lecturers specific set of initiatives but Shelley wrote famously. The poet is the unrecognized legislator of the world. Artists have this task of creating a culture that we're a part of creating a space in which we can see ourselves and discover ourselves and contemplate who we are and what we do. And why and how it connects to our heritage to the stories. We've received the stories that we're dealing with to the big questions that we're we're facing creating that culture and a rich culture a culture in which you can can have a sense of transcendence and a sense of purpose that's broad and and committed and ethical an empathetic. And all of that you need you need culture to back it up. And there's so much in the tradition jewish tradition these great and really important stories and also modes of thinking of interacting with others. And these things need to be unearthed and discovered and to me the space where they gonna come from is of course are and not just poetry but also visual arts and theater of course and film all of these things if they exist than than we are in conversation with the ancient tradition we are in conversation with with who we are profoundly and of course i think these things need to be funded. I think every serious jewish educational space should have artists in residence like every shoulder wants to matter should have artists in residence creating an n. Teaching their side by side with with everything else because people need something profound to come together around. I'm not a big governor myself. I don't feel particularly moved are affected by it. And i know a lot of people like me who want to come together around a sacred experience but don't necessarily want that experience to be centered around prayer one other kinds of texts or other kinds of sacred experience in art especially our that is serious and complicated and challenging and difficult. It can certainly push you towards that place and create an opportunity for people to come together in that particular way being in jewish world. I think part of my my work is bringing that thinking to jewish educational world and trying to build a artistic experience and initiatives and working with our into kind of broader educational discourse. Because i think it will be nourishing just any kind of serious learning and thinking and being together are is incredibly potent in building communities and people getting to know each other in in the deeper profound way. Thank you so much. All we've done today is talk about mathematical integral lamentations kafka jewish land therapy the digital world and art so. We barely touched on anything so amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you and before we go out with any calls to contact us. We want to play you out with some of jake's poetry and music so here he is theological equivalent of money laundering. Take issue with that. Gravity and as a member of clergy entitled to parking anywhere park marine shade scraped horizons searching of obssession. I'm standing alone with a titus optical strain known to man and you want me to bless your remember. Jake said that he likes to be playful. Hope you cut pat him that incredible track. Thank you for joining us. Thank you all of you out there for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode and we hope you'll tune in again in the future. We want to encourage you to be in touch with us. We love it at any of the following possible contact avenues. And here they are. So there's facebook. Judaism bound our facebook page. There's instagram twitter. Also judaism unbound. There's our website duties him unbound dot com and there are email addresses. Dan judaism unbound dot com or lexus. Judaism unbound dot com the last request to make that we deeply appreciate any amount of financial donation that you can send our way and you can do that on either a monthly recurring basis or just as a one time gift et judaism unbound dot com slash. Donate or this time of year by joining our guilt. Razor at guilt razor dot com are amazing hannukah program that you can come to with donation just of thirty six dollars or three dollar monthly recurring gift. So thank you so much for listening with that this has been judaism about.

thirty six dollars jake marmer three dollars leonard cohen jake Fifth twenty danley forty two dollars Thirty six dollars jake murmurs Jake murmurs tablet magazine university of new york graduat two hundred years Dan Sotos mandelstam jeremiah Bronfman bronfman
The Loyal Love of God  Character of God E12

The Bible Project

1:08:25 hr | 9 months ago

The Loyal Love of God Character of God E12

"It is john bible project you ever been in a situation where you're looking for a word describing idea but you can't find the right word in those situations we oftentimes just go to another language like the feeling that this exact moment has happened before. French has a great word deja-vu or that pleasure that's derived from another person's misfortune. German has a great word for that. shot employed. languages are like this. Some languages have better ways of expressing very particular ideas. now there's a word in hebrew that is notoriously difficult to translate it to english for this reason. It's an idea that combines being generous with being loyal and wraps it all up in the emotion of deep affection for another this is the hebrew word has it. there's no word in any language that quite does all of the things that hazardous doing. And so it's a challenge to render acid any language it's of a covenant partner. You're motivated by love and affection. You do concrete acts and as you do so you are fulfilling a promise. Discussing now is a big deal in the bible. Because it's the fourth characteristic that god gives to himself in exodus thirty four but if there's no word in english that translates has it. Well what are we doing. So this word has been translated. A lot of different ways the earliest english translation of wickliffe. John wickliffe and williamson. Dale us thing mercy mercy meant to them king james followed in our own time by the new american standard has gone with two words either mercy sometimes and translated mercy or more often with a compound word loving kindness and iv simply translates it as love esp further and they call it steadfast love when you notice these kinds of differences between translations that usually a flag. Hey there's something interesting here. There's an opportunity to learn because with these translation differences show. People are struggling to find an easy one for one correspondence between our language and concepts and the language concepts of bible so coming up today on the show. What does it mean that. God is full of head. Thanks for joining us. Walking through five characteristics of god found in exodus chapter thirty four verse six and we are. There's has been a long series. It's been really great. We just got out of the whole conversation anger long conversation and it was great. We're to move into the fourth attribute that got it. Assigns himself Which is translated different ways. I suggest some. Yeah we'll explore that it's given many different english translation. But i've heard you say loyal love over and over. Yes so so it's loyal love. We're talking about loyal love. And i have with me. You have with you as using long Tim tim hello. Hello chris says higher and let's get started so loyal love is the english translation. I've come to favor but strong arguments can be made for other translations and we'll look at how some smart people through history of translated this word. The hebrew word is. I said this is what you got to clear your throat is it has said or a said the the emphasis is on the first syllable correct. Yeah that's right. And then the what's the hebrew. Were there the letter is for letter. Delivers height decided to learn the hero or at her hat. Yeah so often transliterated with the letter c h in the last name. Johann sebastian bach. But what i find is when you spell c. h. For most english speakers they say yeah right. And so i've come to transliterated k. h. Your that makes sense yeah. I think that's good. Yeah seth you've been pronouncing his chest said for a long time. Now trae change do test up curses. Not your throat has it. This is really interesting word. I had a lot of fun. Studying this word. In the hebrew bible it occurs Two hundred and forty five times now. Hebrew bible is a pretty big collection of texts. But that's that's a lot. That's a lot i'm of particular for yeah for and so here's just some interesting things about This word it. It appears most often in the psalms. One hundred twenty seven time in the book of psalms and then a forty six times in the big narrative stretching from genesis two second kings and then it starts getting smaller twenty six times the providence. Thirteen times wisdom books. You know as we've been going through these traits. It almost seems like they have occurred most often in the psalms gracious and compassionate any faithfuls the same two facial occurs a lot in assam. Yeah that's interesting. that's a good observation. The spirituality of the psalms has been deeply shaped by exit. Thirty four six how. The poets relate and talk. About god's yeah yeah and the characteristics. They rely on joe about god though. I don't know about slow to anger if that was more prevalent. Yeah interesting i if i did search that don't remember top ahead. This very productive word. What's interesting is that in. Seventy five percent of those two hundred and forty five uses of the word. Seventy five percent of them are about god. So god's is a major major feature of the ultimate portrait of god but then also there is one out of four occurrences that talk about humans. Do this and this. And so it's a really great opportunity to see how humans are in image of god. The humans showing hassett gives us a window into how god chose blessed so this word has been translated a lot of different ways the earliest english translations of wickliffe john wickliffe and williamson delle us thing with word mercy. Whatever mercy meant to them. That's surprising translation to me. Because i don't usually connect mercy and love in to one correlation. Like maybe a loving person is also merciful. But it's an interesting translation where they were taking their inspiration from most likely is from the greek translation of the september which used the greek word l. us which is mercy or kindness. And so i think that's where they're coming from. But i sat because there's a good greek term for hesse. Yes actually. there's no word in any language that quite does all of the things hazardous doing and so it's a challenge to render hassard in any language and so actually. The translation of this word throughout the history of english bibles is an instructive that so the earliest english bibles tindale wick with with mercy. The king james followed in our own time by the new american standard has gone with two words. Either mercy sometimes translated mercy or more often with a compound. Word loving kindness numbing kindness loving kindness lincoln. No space that is a very bible word. It is totally. I learned that word as a kid because of the bible because the bible let me count one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen letters to good german. Totally that is just put two words together and call a good so many letters known as descriptive. Yes okay of the type of left. Maybe yes so yeah kindness. You can show acts of kindness but not necessarily associated with the deep kind of pathos with love so acts of kindness combined motivated by love actually not a bad translation but notice they had to merge two words you make it work and when you say sometimes they did mercy. Wouldn't king james have just one transition No the For stylistic purposes they might discern in a particular context. Oh i see depending on the hitting on the context. The context of that were yeah. Yeah but in excess thirty four. They're going to have one loving kindness. Yeah this right. Yep but other times that it shows up this time seamers correct. twentieth century. The new revised standard english standard versions They use the fray a phrase two words. Steadfast love And decided to keep those words separate. Let's not get a new not all's billed as one word so two words but steadfast is also not that common. She's wording or is it. Is that a really kind of christie's word type. Probably never use that word in any sort of normal situation yeah steadfast love so what that transition brings out is both as active pathos. It leaves out the kindness that you get with or mercy you get with those other translations but introduces a new concept which is enduring reliable through time consistent steadfast. And that's good. That's that's a part what's going on here. That is a part of class. Id is its enduring commitment and then just last. The new international version sometimes just uses the english word love or sometimes translates with the phrase. Unfailing love just kind of like steadfast. Yeah that's right like steph left so anytime. This kind of lull axiom or rule of thumb that we've learned to develop win you this why it's helpful to read with multiple english translations of the bible throughout time when you notice these kinds of differences between translations that usually a flag like. Hey there's something interesting opportunity to learn because what these translation differences show is. People are struggling to find the easy one for one correspondence between our language and concepts and the language and concepts of the bible. Yes an interesting word. Because it is describing this quality of love that goes beyond. Maybe the way or i guess. I'm curious how this word has said compares with how we usually understand love in general or maybe even how we understand other kinds of levin the bible like a gop bay or the or how it compares to faithfulness or compassion does kinds of ideas. Yeah yes actually. In our in our project video library two words studies on love right one on the hebrew word and then went on the greek word. Aha and hebrew in office will be the third. So this'll be the third. Were kind of second hebrew word a second hebrew word and but it's loyal love. What was the other hebrew word i have. I have a yep and that's commu the quick yeah is affection affection the the emotional attachment and affection. A gop is belt actions to seek another person's well being they're motivated by a desire and affection for them in. This is a have. I usually translated as a copy I don't remember that the top programme so upset has it apart. The word has said if you study all of these occurrences wouldn't will look at a whole bunch. It's the kind of love that someone demonstrates when they're keeping a promise. And when the desire to be loyal to their promise motivates them to go above and beyond and be super generous. More than what you would expect. That's what i said yes. It differs from this other words. And it's inside of this commitment or or perceived as commitment even if it's not an explicit commitment you the threat. Yeah yeah it's almost always in the context of the enduring relationship either a family or covenant connection in. It's about yeah it's it's one among a whole history of acts to maintain a relationship through acts of generosity and and it's still an emotional or emotive word will you know it's It's focused more on behavior in action. Okay combining generosity commitment and affection in one the shorthand illustration that. I came to us when this word would come up when i was in pastoral. Ministry ministry in preaching is Like an elderly man. Who's you know husband and wife. They'd been married fifty seven years. His wife gets really sick and she can't carers for herself anymore and so he dedicates himself to full-time care like wheelchair. Feeding bathing has it. So it's concrete if you just sat on the couch and like i love you. But then doesn't help her. That's not s But if he was just a nurse getting paid to do it with new affection no obligation. No it's of a covenant partner. You're motivated by love and affection. You do concrete acts and as you do so you are fulfilling promise that you made it a. Yeah a really beautiful word. So beautiful is it describes that kind of love. That's a commitment and a choice and a desire the ten. That's active so these different english translations. I really sympathize. And i'm just adding my opinion to the bunch now with the translation loyal love. But here's the thing is unfailing love of the iv. I don't use word. Unfailing steadfast threes were sieff s but loyal. Yes that's a normal english word. Yes and also kind of has the connotation of like a friendship or a partnership. Oh yes loyalty. I think we think in terms of human partnerships when we talk about loyalty loyal of dozen get across is so we got the affection. It doesn't get across the generosity. Might see that's true. It feels a little bit a kid. Fellow contractual Like me loyal love versus. There's a sense of headway. He has been talking about it. Which is this like out. Flowing of generosity Sorry causing no thorough. I i yeah. So lovingly kind loyal. Yeah loyal loyal loving kindness letters on this. That would be the new king james. Okay so that's the basic idea. I take in some famous bible verses like some that might be on bumper stickers cross stitch patterns on people's walls and then you'll you'll see it you actually see it displayed and then i thought we could look at a bunch of examples of people showing hesse to each other and famous bible stories and then we can conclude by looking at god's example. God chunk has it A a famous old testament bible versus with the psalm. Thirty six versus five and six your head. Oh lord reaches to the heavens. You'll things yeah sing to skies on the wrote. The berbice right also worship anthem. Your justness like the mighty. Man tunes your. I remember this from bible college chapel college. You know it's funny is because there's only a small like window of worship songs. You're familiar with more than me from the mid to late nineties. Yeah i think that one stuck around ask but yeah you can't read this verse without getting a in exactly. yes yes. are you looking it up. Third day day. Shout out to third. Yeah yeah third day whether you're getting in on those design patterns totally yeah totally. Yeah yeah so your lord reaches to the skies. Okay so here. Let's therefore poetic parallel lines here. So notice the attributes of god their paired your s it reaches to the skies your faithfulness to the heavens your righteousness like the mountains. Your justice like the deep abyss below notice we just spend the three tiered cosmos of genesis. One yep with the mountains in the mix the sky's the mountains representing land. Okay and then. The deep is the waters under the land. And god's character is what upholds every tier of interesting school. Yeah yeah character is saturated throughout the entire cosmos and i wondered if the certain character traits are paired with certain parts of the cosmos that might be in the rain gods loyal love. And then the word that. You're going to take us on a tour through next chris your faithfulness that's associated with the what's above. We're both of them are yeah exactly. Yeah god's has it and his faithfulness are associated with this guy now. Is that two different words in this poem here. 'cause heavens and skies are the same word in hebrew. It seems like it should be two different ones. Oh yeah so. The first word is sham. The traditional word heavens skies the second word is actually The word for clouds jokin yet. Awfulness shocking so yeah clouds. That's a fascinating that They translated clouds sky. Yeah only because they already tried Translated sky heavens. That's right yeah. That is interesting but yes. V of psalm. Thirty six five has clouds the clouds. Yes the and it seems like it does the same thing either way. It's starting up really high heavens skies mountains deep your skies clouds steep. Yeah that's right. So basically from the top. To bottom of the cosmos god's character is what uphold to all and this is in the larger context of a whole paragraph in psalm about meditating on the stability of creation tangent sure There's two other attributes have gotten in these two. Yes this injustice. Why aren't those in psalm. Thirty six. Why did god leave those out. What exodus thirty six yes. Sorry ex- yeah. Those are two great attributes that you would think god would want moses to think about. Yeah pricelessness injustice. So you're saying why are they absent or the opposite. Yeah that's a great question. Almost seems like justice is described in those versus anyways. It's a tangent not a good one. Yeah just make an observation. They're missing out of righteousness is about doing right by somebody and justice is about fairness equity one could argue that god is not very fair with israel right. He gives them much much more than what they serve in fact with the next line. That's what the next example fezzet is is. He doesn't give israel what they but he is being just with them that you're not being unjust if you're being generous. Somebody's yeah you know. I've never asked myself the question the way that you just did. I need to take a long walk. Can think about that. I mean there's there's tons of attributes nursing. Yeah so but these. Pretty core yeah. Yeah and they're the verses that are repeated over and over. So i think for me. The question is whether this yet he does not leave. the guilty. unpunished is talking about his justice or if the purpose there is actually to emphasize his graciousness that his his mercy extends to the thousand generations. And this punishment only goes to the third or the fourth. So maybe justice isn't being emphasised It's interesting which is yeah. it is interesting to think. About what core characteristics of. God really were important to the biblical authors. And which ones weren't as important or just when they wanted to summarize the core of god's character if only if you only get a list of five yep others what are the top five for the yeah. Yeah that's yeah. I would have gas. Righteousness would have made top five. Yeah that's a good point is my certainly shows righteousness. So that's interesting. I've never i. I need to think about that. You've stumbled upon a really profound question. Did you think about psalm. One hundred three versus eleven twelve as high as the heavens are above the earth. So great is his. Id for those who fear him. As far as the east is from the west so far has he removed our transgressions from us said. The parallelism between those lines is really illuminating. I think is that. I worship song. The guy's got this really. I don east is from the west. What that's how far really is removed. Our transgressions know. Maybe i was later. That i don't know that one but i bet you. There is a song or him for most psalms that that we can for sure. Yeah for sure. We don't have to them all in psalm. Thirty six the first example if god's has as they're associated with the stability of creation At the part of god the feeling his promise and fulfilling his word here. God's loyal love is expressed by forgiving people forgiving them. This is kind of like Like how much do you love me question and like you know you play with your kids and you're like i love you. This much hands out like six inches. I love you this big into like a foot and you keep going. Yeah this is the psalmist thinking about how grand is it. Yes how high and how far here. Yeah so yeah. It goes vertical high as the skies above land and goes horizontal east from the west which is an impossible since yup and then the what paired is showing husted is expressed through forgiving people. When they wrong you Specifically your your covenant partners stop brings out the generosity. Yeah that's right piece yeah yeah. So forgiveness is core to hessen. Yep because you can't be in a loving loyal generous relations with someone without constantly forgiving. Each other right. I guess unless you're in a covenant relationship with jesus but he's the one is getting mica six verse eight he has shown you human what is good and what the lord requires view. This is a song to do. Justice to love has said and to walk humbly with your god now there because of the king james version the songs of mica six eight that have become popular have retained the word mercy do justice mercy while company with you. It's the song that i know. I don't know those once. He has shown you. Oh man what else do and what. The law requires of you just the but to do just tuned into this podcast. Soul of his mercy. Yup okay so an. Iv renders mercy. Here mike assay. Esp translates kindness. The new american standard goes with kindness as well. So how do you think these three terms are related relating here to do justice. Love has said and walk humbly. Yeah we'll mica. He's railing against the leaders of israel for not being loyal to the covenant with theon away and then that's demonstrated by not doing justice for the needy and the poor in the inner cities and throwing raging drinking parties. He just blazoned when leaders drinking too much. So you can kind of see that reflected here like do justice for the poor Keep covenant with way and. Don't think of yourself too highly. Okay so it's three. Significant things not synonymous things or oh. I see mutually on each other in some systematic way interesting. I like explanation. That makes sense. Yeah it makes sense to me. it's love it. Yes yeah ocelot said love of hazard. Mitten macy's hazard make loyal. Love the thing you love. Yes the thing that you have affection for love of love hazard. Yeah love visit like desire said desire of us kind of desire. Yeah it is. It's to desire desire love Desire laurie love. It's remember loyal. Love is concrete acts of ms not referring to a feeling message not a feeling vested is visible action. That shows your posture in relation. You know one thing that kinda keeps this together. I think is a large view. I don't know if that's the best way to sit large vantage point so like to love said you kind of have to think about the future. Think about relationships are a a long-term yang. Yeah and it's easy to love like the immediate Gratifications in life to love hassett is kind of like saying i'm going to commit myself to things that are gonna be not always hard or not always easy. Yes sometimes challenging. But because i love this thing that's much broader than just here now And is kind of the same like Lots of times. Justice often is when i feel wronged but when you really love justice or we really like about justice. It's big picture view of leg. I want society to be just Feels like to love both those things you have to step outside your immediate context. Yeah good yeah. it's good observation. Okay so those are famous bible verses. Let's dive into some bible stories where people are showing to each other can fill out. Fill out the portrait at the end of the book of genesis jacob the pitcher arc dying. He has all of his sons round his twelve sons around him and in genesis forty seven at the end We read the the time drew near for him to die and so he takes his son that he lost and regained again. The sun that he thought was dead. But was really joseph and says if i have found if i found favor in your eyes Gracious five found grace in your is put your hand under my thigh And swear enough. That's how they did it by leonard. Yup totally that you will show me and faithfulness. There's again the two words are often paired. Don't bury me here in egypt. When i lay down my fathers carry me out of egypt and go bury me where they're buried. Which hundred miles away remember. They didn't have cars. And joseph said i'll do it. I will do it so Sun showing father s. Id is carrying his corpse hundreds of miles to go be buried with his ancestors. That's active hessen. Yeah because it's a lot to do. It takes a criminal now. Generosity do something like that. He does it because he loves his father yeah it's also loyalty with out repayment. Because his father's obviously debt he's carrying phones. Yes yeah so. It's not that he yes wants his father to reciprocate or grid. That's exactly right. Yeah without expectation when you show somebody said that's living you might hope they show you has baton but has it is about the one doing it. It's purely generated out of the character of the one doing it your because here. There's no return on investment. Maybe that's the reason why your other story was really great about the old man care of his wife. Yes nothing you're getting back gret actually and the next door is famous biblical story that makes the same point in another way. the The story of ruth. Oh man we have to make more videos on ruth. yeah i just. It's amazing even in this video that so that you've just written script for loyal love and artists are in the process of making the video. It's already such powerful seen. Ruth's has said yes. Yeah the the threat. So the story in a nutshell is In israelite family in a time of famine leaves the land of israel to go live among the land of their enemies. Moa bites the moab across the jordan in modern day jordan All of the men die but the sons in the family had each married women. It's an. I haven't israelite mom and her two mojo by daughters in law Ruth and warpath of the two daughters are the two daughters. And so this interesting naomi's gonna move back home. And she says to each of her daughter she says go. Return each of you to your. Your mother's house may galway way. Do lesson with you. As you've shown facet to me you've been good daughters in law you've been loyal and so may the lord do loyalty to you. You can go. And so orca goes back home but ruth refuses. This is the famous scene and saw you katharina. reuss words. ruth said don't urge me to leave you or turn back from following you where you go. I go where you live. I live your people will be my people and your god god where you die. I will die and there will be buried. May jawa demean me and even worse if anything but death separates you and me. Yeah come on. Yeah that's like shakespeare right there. Yeah it's amazing. Especially because in that ancient context naomi has nothing to give her and it really makes those words just when you read them where you die. I will die yes. It's almost like will. Yeah you're probably gonna die like two women travelling from moab to jerusalem on your own. You have nothing. Yeah yeah they don't really land mazing words the dumped yeah totally so When later on in the story they go back and settle in bethlehem and when people hear about this promise that ruth made people like boas an important person in the story. He calls this inactivesit that ruth did towards naomi so this fills out the portrait. A little more. It's it has a similar to the previous example in the there's no expectation of return. It's a family bond or covenant family bond but she increases it i mean she's swearing in oath in. It sounds like like house bright. Yeah which she's talking with that's you you use covenant. A number of times around this word does feel like yeah. Who's bound up in that yet. Oath-taking yeah commitment. Yup yeah totally. And and so. This is what This book rastas and this is her activated. So there's many other examples so after david kills goliath. but he's not yet. The king of israel saul king saul is still around but saw comes to hate david and tries to murder. Durham but problem. Saul's son jonathan becomes david's best friend best friends and they make a covenant together. And so i have that here in. I samuel twenty Jonathan says to david may be with you just like he was with my father and if i am still alive will you please show me said so that i may not die. 'cause my dad wants to kill you and he knows we're best friends he might wanna kill me. Show me. has it. Jonathan continues. Don't cut off your head from my house not even win. Galway cuts off. All the enemies of david from the face of the land and so johnson made a covenant with the house of david. So this is the ruling king son says my dad's gonna lack somehow be torn down from being king and you always going to raise you up and so it's actually pretty smart. Move their best friends. But it's also pretty savvy political. Have that right And so they make this promise to each other and you read on the story. Jonathan dies in battle sad. David cries sings a lament. But then it's not ill years and years later when david becomes king. There's the story in second samuel nine where he s someone in his court one day. Is there anyone left among the descendants of saul that. I can show it to jonathan. And i made that covenant and he learns will yes actually There is one descendant a grandson of saul your enemy. who's alive. His name is a name and that one for future totally totally good. Boy name the bishop. And so what he does. Is he adopts he adopts the grandson of his enemy. The son of his dead friend he adopts him into his home and his family and he basically says you can eat at my table for the rest of life and he's his legs are injured. He can't walk. He's crippled so he adopts this young boy was family and caring for the rest of his life. That's that is really amazing. It's his enemies grandson. And it's the rival king or the the previous king's grandson that and yes the threat. Somehow this now. This previous king is still going to have a person that could potentially be. David's rival the future. Yes i'm using the. Yeah that's good. Thank you for bringing that out. In a in a hereditary monarchy culture this represents somebody who's yeah rival and so yes So there you go. There's many more stories but you get the picture from just these handful examples loyalty commitment generosity and love all kinds of team of sacrifice too. It's a joyous sacrifice Like i want to make the sacrifice. Yeah yeah it's it's motivated by generous love when you're doing something out of familial loyalty there's a duty. There's an obligation. Like joseph to his father did bury him sure. And so you know the fact that something is done out of loyalty doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing it out of goodwill rights but hesse d- in these contexts is used to describe that abundance of goodwill and affection in addition to the baber him an occurs often between friends and family yes or other kinds of committing relationships are making promises like with rahab and spies There's a handful where people who recently met but usually it's it's what's surprising is because they're asking like joseph adds this of the cup bearer that he meets imprison farrell's server And he says. Hey you know i interpreted your dream for you and when you go back to furrows court show me hassett by remembering me and getting me out of out of prison. So he calls it knocked even though he just met the guy He's asking him to treat him family. Treat me like you would somebody. You are in a covenant partnership with family member so we look at a few. You get the idea. Remember that number. This word occurs almost two hundred fifty times only one out of four. Does it describe people doing this. Three out of four times seventy five percent of two hundred slot. Chevy over one fifty there would be would be describing. God's said so what's cool is you can go through narratives and do the same thing profile. God's husted with actual narratives about god doing it. And i found this really enriching kind of go through some story so There's the story in genesis twenty four. Where abraham is old and about to die. Actually he tells his head to make a promise by putting your hand under my thigh. Misses him to sing. so essentially. what abraham says is. Hey my son isaac doesn't. He's not married. And god made a promise about you. Know blessing the nations through my descendant so with find Find a partner. Find a wife. So he sends One of his head servant back to the family. That abraham left behind and so the servant doesn't have name he's just called the servant and this chapter in the history of jewish interpretation. They named this figure elliott sir. 'cause that's the servant that name jensen fifteen eliezer. So the servant goes hundreds of miles back to where abraham came from and he praised he goes to a well and he went to a well at the time win. The young women came out to draw water place to meet a wife like the singles club. Apparently so we're told that he prays and he says oh lord god of my master abraham grammy success today and show hesse to abraham here. I am standing by the spring. Was young women coming out to draw. Water may be basically sets up this elaborate sign. You know the. I'm going to say this one is women. And if she answers me this all know that she's the and so he calls this god. Blessed abraham so that what appears to be a chance meeting turns out to be inactive got providence and he calls this acid so it s it. because why. this story doesn't tell you. It's the context of god. Made a promise to abraham and this wife this young woman he's gonna meet will be will be the fulfilment of that promise and that's what makes it. Yeah abraham's grandson is a treacherous liar. His his name is Snatcher you'll snatcher. Jacob and god repeats that promise the made to abraham to jacob and jacob is actually makes the same journey of the servant did genesis twenty four. But not cause to fulfil promise. But it's because he cheated. His family escape plan escape plan and so he comes back into the land twenty years after being exiled because of his stupid decisions and What he says to god as he crosses the jordan river is he says i am unworthy of all the us it and all the faithfulness again notice. You know it didn't do. I didn't count the number of times paired loy love and faithfulness appear to get. It does a lot even in that. Previous story with abraham faithfulness is used in two of those verses risk to reclose in an him. Yeah yeah with right so this example is interesting. Because you know in the story of david and jonathan. Jonathan was kind to david and helped him and so david rested to a son. Here's an example of god showing facet to somebody who clearly doesn't deserve it. This guy doesn't deserve a second chance. Loyal love he didn't show lawyer loved his family. His father ores brother. But god has shown him. What is it. That motivates genuine hundred. Well my thought here is. It's only when you desire when there's some pathos behind it but if someone doesn't deserve it you probably not energized by a path. That's interesting yeah but you doing the right thing to do so. It's not purely obligation or duty but what what keeps it from being pure obligation or duty at this point. God yeah yes. It is described as hassle if somebody doesn't deserve it but you show it any way. It's called You could say that. Jacob presents a unique problem for god. Because you know abraham was stupid but he ultimately passed the test. He showed himself faithful with the abraham and isaac story and had some promising qualities even in the beginning following the threat following god. The new land yet. Yeah that's right. So jacob has shown himself to be pretty unworthy of this whole promise deal and so it creates us unique dynamic a conflict of interest. You could say Should be fair with jacob and give him what he deserves. But then that would mean violating his God's promise to this family and god doesn't violate his promises. His you discover about the scott and so god gives generously to a guy who doesn't deserve it and that was part of the profile has said the big question though. Why didn't he say i'm unworthy of generosity and faithfulness. I'd imagine there's a good word for that where hess it seems to have Emotion involved of love. Oh pathos yes. But it refers primarily to the concrete expression so what he says is I crossed the jordan river with only staff in my hand. And now i've become too huge camps of people and animals and kids and stuff. He's calls that acid. Okay so is not just referring to primarily referring to us warm fuzzies for me. What he's saying is. I had nothing and now i have a lot and the only thing i can attribute it to is the you made this promise to my grandfather and my father and you're giving it to me for what makes has it here more than just generosity then commitment to the promise to the promise generosity yep what is love fit in then will that is love. I guess what i'm saying is you can decide to be generous to someone because of an oath. Yeah but despite the person right totally yeah. I don't think you would use the word of hesse. They're right. I maybe within a commitment. I don't know if you make a commitment to somebody and momentarily despise them for something you could still choose to exercise love or i'm going to choose to like love this person regardless we probably all had moments where there's somebody that in a moment you find it difficult to find any affection for them but you still do right by them and then maybe your actions kind of pave the way for that affection to follow sometimes a lot later but As an interesting again what we're trying to do is take our experiences in math. Monta what we think. God's experience working with jacob might be your question. John is kind of about whether has said always involves this desire or emotional love. I kind of ven diagram was created my mind When you see where it was like you need to have love generosity that generosity and you gotta have loyalty and then when you got those three things we've got it take one of those out. It's no longer has it. I see so you can love someone and be generous but just in a moment of panic a moment of passion but have no commitment. And that's not happen. You could be committed to someone and love them and love them. Never should never generosity. Would you call that tested. I don't think so. But here's what i think we're saying is there is situations where you're not feeling any pathos and love but you are being loyal and you're being generous and still hasn. Yeah so. I guess. I should to save this. God he says this of god and so i think as a christian. Would it mean to believe. About god's motivations here is that god loves jacob that he also loves him here because i believe god loves me and i'm not sure i'm not much better. You know what you mean. So even if he's not pleased with his decisions in the past few decades no in fact everything. Jacob did did his family. God providential brings back on jacobson. He deceives his father and brother and so his uncle deceives him so. Jacob sits for twenty years in the mess of his choices. New and god allows that right. But god doesn't leave him in that and when he comes back to his family and land with two camps of animals people. He says you've mesa. Even though i'm unworthy a story called Third in exodus story when god trump's faira destroying him in the waters the song that miriam those saying they call it an act of god's to lead the people that you've redeemed out of egypt. It's all called knocked. It kind of makes sense intuitively in the. It's fulfiling god's promise program but here the way that the it was demonstrated was on bringing severe justice on A tyrant yes but it seems like the focus is on. The justice is much as it's on the fact that god was loyal and did something incredibly. Yeah big generous to for them and that seems to make it although you know it took a couple of centuries the exa story begins by fast forwarding for generations and suffering and the cry out to god and wondering if god's ever going to do anything else remember seeing the ideas of compassion really strongly here in this narrative that the people are crying out in god is compelled by their cries to rescue them. So maybe there's also some overlap with husaid and compassion And deliverance compassion was really connected to deliverance and forgiveness to yeah the correct the threat like they bundle together got show. Compassion and forgiving in rescuing is about focusing on the emotion. Gut feel when he sees people suffering. You wants to help them here. It's about the loyalty to his promise and franco but there are still elements in said here of forgiveness and deliverance deliverance. Here you're saying in the exodus story that involves rescue And the bringing down of oppressive rulers. That's fulfilment of got. Actually the this sets a important design pattern that that the prophets will bring up a lot when god brings down the mighty from their thrones. It's badness rabab. Lon were a syria or the leaders of judah but it's good news for the poor and the oppressed and they experience as an act of god's faceted when citadels fall so does god's said have to do with or does it exist more often between god and the marginalized throughout scripture or the oppressed Oh yes for sure. But that's true. The hebrew bible the hosts hebrew bible was was written by a minority press group. So god's promises his faithfulness his compassion his said they're all extended toward the oppressed and marginalized. And it's a great way of articulating. Let's look at one one more so We've seen abraham jacob the axis these are all about god fulfilling his ongoing covenant promises in the wilderness. Stories the story of The the spies moses and joshua they send the spies into canaan ten come back and say the giants are going to kill us so the people are like no way or we. Let's go back to egypt whether they actually they threaten to kill moses and appoint a new leader to take them back to egypt. That's how bad it gets. And so moses steps up god's angry and what he says numbers fourteen How long will this people show contempt for me. How long will they not trust in me. Despite everything i've done. I'm gonna strike them with plagues the thing i did to egypt. I'm just gonna do it to them. And moses i'm to make you into a nation even greater than they are and you've been reading the torah you like. I've been here more. Sounds familiar this. The golden calf partout. We've actually talked about the story. I think in this series so any and somoza speaks up. He uses the same tactics as he did with a golden calf egyptians will hear about. It won't reflect well on your reputation. Here's what's interesting so in numbers. Fourteen for seventeen. Moses says please let the power of your way great. Listen you declared quote. Jawa is slow to anger. Great husted forgiving iniquity and transgression but he will by no means declare innocent guilty visiting the iniquities of fathers on the children and the children. So please pardon the iniquity of this people according to your great acid just says you has already forgave him once. Sa- keep doing it so the logic of this is so interesting. forgive them because of your hus- it. Yeah that's the logic. yeah it's almost. he says. Forgive them because of your hus- said i know you said you won't clear the guilty. Yes oh you forgive this people. According to your hesse that's good good great he's highlighting the fact that you have these two traits. Yeah you won't declare innocent to guilty but you also never give up on your promises. Yeah that's what you're saying. He's playing. He's noting the tension i mean. Yeah because it's interesting. He just brings up this line visit. Yeah right maybe support the argument better. That's a really good point. Yes he notes that. There's a tension between exodus. Thirty four versus six. Yeah right he says. I know this but if you go back on your promise you won't be showing it and that's that's not the kind of god that you are You show us it now as the story goes on you know. God will let this generation die in the wilderness and bring their children into the promised. Land and god hasn't violated disgusted by doing that because he stays faithful to the family but to just walk away from the family of abraham is such that would be to violate classes. So all we've looked at our stories in the torah about god's it's truly instruction torah it's got character so notice it multigenerational. God's promise over the course of a whole history of a family it's not based on the worthiness of any given generation. In fact sometimes it seems excessive puts god and all the situations where he asked to be more generous than people would deserve but this long enduring commitment to generosity and love and commitment is core character trait of god in it goes right on through the stories of david. You can see now why it appears one hundred twenty seven times in the book of salves. Could 'cause i think to be a part of this family in the story in some later generation with all the hebrew bible is insperity punches terms of showing the flaws of our ancestors representing humanity in humans are like yeah so to show so many flawed ancestors and yet god continues to be be committed to us. God blesses you can see why. It's such a prominent from the trade We began with some famous old testament. Bible verses with acid. Let's conclude with some famous new testament bible verses with this word now. The new testament written in greek has. It doesn't look how sedan show up. But the sept agent translation made a couple of hundred years before jesus of the hebrew bible into greek uses. The greek word ella us which is a standard word for mercy and this is a good example of where they were using the greek language. Faking in hero still clearly have the hebrew concept Here's a great example The song that mary sings when she finds out she's going to give burst to the messiah. The magnificant is its latin name so look at how she uses the word mercy. I'm gonna use the english word mercy and you're gonna see it doesn't make okay mercy being the english word of when you what mercy. It's usually when you extend or over. Extend yourself to show kindness or pity. Yeah to someone in need you. Am i right there or you. Yeah you extend mercy instead of maybe show me mercy. Yeah instead of punishment or what somebody deserves. I mean that's a common more modern understanding. I don't know if that us understanding. Merciless merciless means pitiless and cruel. Yeah dictionary dot com says compassion forgiveness to someone That it's within your power yaish. Yeah you have the power to bring the pain and you don't. That's mercy yeah ok not bringing the negative. Yeah so yeah. You'll just see this doesn't quite fit. So here's what mary says. My soul glorifies the lord my spirit rejoices and god my savior down diverse fifty. His mercy extends to those who fear him from generation to generation could say i guess he could punish us from generation generation generation generator writer. He is scattered those who are proud. He's brought down. Rulers from their thrones. He's lifted up the humble. He fills the hungry with good things but sends the rich away. Empty he's helped to serve the remembering to be merciful to abraham and his descendants forever. Just like he promised. I guess you still could retain that standard meaning of merciful. Yeah or it's one aspect of hess said but not the full. Yeah that's right aspect. Yeah 'cause in both the two way she uses the word here. She's emphasizing from generation to generation to fulfill the promise. Yeh to our hence the kind of see how it works really well. Yes and no place here. It's exactly the meantime head over the whole history. Our family you keep doing surprising things to fulfil your promises to us. So does that mean when we see mercy in the new testament. We should run through that question of whether this is the idea of said. So here's an example. Actually tried to do just that. This would be a good way to conclude our conversation Famous paragraph in paul's letter to the patients in chapter two. He begins by saying you all were dead in your transgressions incentives and you used to live under the principalities and powers on verse four but because of his great love his up god who is rich in mercy servers that greek word loss the in again. The student translates her said He made us alive with the messiah. Even though we were dead in our transgressions it is by grace that you've been saved. So he names. Three attributes of love love mercy mercy and grace so because of his love. God felt affection for dead dying people. It's by grace that you've been safe. And he goes on to say not of works so it's a gift. It's not something you earned a gift given to you. And then in the middle of love and grace is mercy and i think what's interesting. Is mercy really well because mercy. It can be a form of hessen very easily. Yeah the right to to forgive someone. Yeah because it's forgiving. It's not bringing the consequence onto someone. Yeah that they might via might deserve. Yeah and why would you do that. Well a very good reason movie. Your hessen but is is the reason why mercy was used in the region or elliott authorities here. Because there just isn't a good greek word. Yeah that's a good question And that's my hunch because that's been true in the english tradition as well and so what they did was use the word and then over time. Somebody immersed in the greek bible like realized our really means. Yeah that's right 'cause to forgive someone is one way you could show hesse. Yes but by burying your father. Bright is another way to shield us it or taking care of. Your mother-in-law is another way to about how there's consequences to our disobedience were dead yeah so fit yearly wellm. Yeah the threat. But then you could also see. How the ba- mercy is just one aspect of of head for that and then and And it's rich a rich mercy And has it is so much richer than just mercy. Yeah yeah that's right. yeah totally. So yeah yeah they go so loyal. Love as the best. I can do right now. I think it's pretty good. It's can't get to their it. I like it too. This is This is core the through the generations. I this is a unique part of the biblical portrait of god. That across generations. He remains faithful to his promises and keeps fulfilling them and surprising generous ways. That's core to the biblical portrait of god and the word is also often paired with fickleness. Let's look you're listening to this episode of bob project. Podcast almost done with this series. We've got one more episode with one. More characteristic of god to discuss that is god's faithfulness so means trust trustworthy faith beliefs so encompasses all of those ideas in this verse. It was translated as faithfulness. But it's kind of rooted around this idea of trust or trust worthy. This is an important really important word for the christian faith if we think about what it means to trust in god that's usually how we define what it means to be a christian if you'd like to submit a question for upcoming questioned in response episode. Our deadline is coming up it's ten. Am pacific on november ninth. Record yourself asking the question and try to keep it around twenty or thirty seconds and email it to us at info at bible project dot com. It really helps if you also give us a transcription of your questions. So that we can sort them quickly and easily and don't forget to tell us your name and where you're from. Today's show was produced by dan. Gumel our show notes are from lindsey ponder and our theme music from the band tents. Bible project is a crowd funded nonprofit organization where in portland oregon and we exist to make free resources so that we can all experience the bible as a unified story that leads to jesus everything we do is free because of the generosity of many people all around the world. Thank you for being a part of this high bible project. My name is shelby and alvin. Fayetteville arkansas i. I heard about bible project for my best friend. Rebecca when i asked her i am recommendations on resources to help me know the bible better and now i use bible project. I use the reading plans. And i fall instagram in podcasts. My favorite thing about bible project is what i saw out out for in the first place. It helps me know the bible better. I'm currently reading the tour plan and the bible project helps me find more understanding than ever from these sometimes difficult chapters and shows me how they play into the story of. Jesus we believe the bible is unified story that leads to cheeses where a crowd funded project by people like me find. Free videos seti notes podcasts classes and more at bible project dot com

john wickliffe abraham david ruth Seventy five percent hassett jacob john bible israel two second hassard williamson Ministry ministry fifty seven years hessen bible college chapel college james hesse egypt fezzet
MISSING: DeOrr Kunz Jr.

Crime Junkie

46:08 min | 11 months ago

MISSING: DeOrr Kunz Jr.

"Today's episode was made possible by a wilderness of error on fx fifty years ago. Army surgeon Jeffrey McDonald was charged with the murders of his pregnant wife and two young daughters to this day though he maintains his innocence claiming that a group of hippies imitating the Manson family committed the atrocities from the award producers of the Jinx comes a wilderness of error a new fx documentary series that re examined this infamous case to finally answer the questions did the media shape public opinion and help convict an innocent man or did Jeffrey Macdonald Kill his family a wilderness of error premiers Friday September twenty fifth on Fx streaming next day affects on Hulu. I apart of amazing team that creates not only crime junkie, but a lot of other shows but pulling it off isn't always easy, which is why we rely on Monday dot com to keep us on track and in the no Monday dot com is easy to use totally customizable and is a visual teamwork platform help any team in any industry improve coordination and reach goals. Officially for me helped me see an prioritize goals and expectations through easy to understand access processes and collaborations with other teammates. I truly couldn't do my job well, without Monday dot Com. When your teamwork is effective nothing can stop you to start your free fourteen day trial go to Monday dot Com high-crime junkies. I'm your host Ashley Flowers and I'm Brett and the story I want to tell you today is as tragic as it is baffling a family goes on vacation in an Idaho national forest to vanish of the great outdoors only to have their dream trip descended to a nightmare when they're little boy goes missing this is the story of Dior coons junior. On the afternoon of Friday July tenth two, thousand, fifteen police and law enforcement in Leme high. County Idaho. Get a panicked nine one one call at two twenty, eight pm from a distressed mother named Jessica. Mitchell. Jessica says her two year old son to your has gone missing while her family was camping out in the Salmon Chalice national forest at timber. Creek the. Lemhi County sheriff's respond immediately, and once they arrive on scene they get the story from a distraught. Jessica she and a few others left their home in Idaho falls to go on a family camping trip the day before the full group included Jessica, her Sunday or her fiance who Dr Senior, and he also goes by the name, Vernal Jessica's Grandpa Bob Walton and Bob's. Friend Isaac Jessica says they all drove about two hours North West and had gone to timber. Creek campsite after dark blues to go out to Timber Creek as a young man and he says that he wanted to share his love for the outdoors and specifically for this place with his family and especially with little your suit the next morning after they get their Jessica. Says that she and vernal took dior into town to go shopping at or which is the nearest town about half an hour away when they got back Isaac decided that he wanted to go fishing on his own, just get some alone time. So he went off while vernal and Jessica went to go fish somewhere else while your stayed behind with his great grandma Bob. When they get back to the campsite sometime afternoon do your wasn't playing your Bob like he was supposed to be there little boy was missing and no one knew where he was bob that he thought Dior was with for no Jessica they thought yours with him and that's when they realized. Something was very very wrong. Jessica tells police that she ver- no Isaac and Bob Search for about an before calling nine one at two, thirty, five that afternoon. Right away, search and rescue team is sent out to scour the campsite for any trace of Dior. According, to Jessica when he disappeared yours wearing blue Pajama pants, loose boots and a camel print jacket. Now initially law enforcement or pretty competent that they'll be able to find your and get him back to his parents safely because as one of the Sheriff Deputies told Idaho, state? Journal. Kids Yours age who wonder off on their own don't tend to get very far about seventy five percent of them are usually found within like one fifth of a mile or so from where they took off from even though this dense and rocky terrain with some swampy areas. Near the water the deputy goes even further saying that around ninety five percent are found within two point, eight miles or less. So you can see why there's hope that your will be found safe and sound. Okay. So this might be a dumb question but I'm completely unfamiliar with Idaho. Is Timber Creek just name or is it like an actual creek nearby? So it is actually Creek Timber Creek is a creek and just like you pointed out, do your possibly. Drowning is one of the searchers first thoughts and one of their biggest fears. So they searched the creek right away, but they find no sign of your there. However, the idea of an accidental drowning can't be written off yet because that's not the only body of water nearby there's also the stone reservoir. So police divers up to that reservoir to search there as well. But just like at the creek they don't come up with anything to suggest that he was. Ever there after twelve hours and help from over one hundred seventy searchers and volunteers who take to the woods on foot horseback ATV I mean they even have handlers with canine dogs out there and helicopters the all do scans throughout the entire daylight into dark, but there's no sign of work anywhere now eventually, they have to pause the search when the darkness becomes all consuming no matter how hard they wanna try they just can't do a thorough search without daylight. The search resumes again the next morning and it lasts the full day and then on the second day that this case starts to get weird because the Lemhi county law enforcement officials suspend volunteer operations after forty eight hours of searching what why would they do that? So they don't give an explanation right away like all public is, is like no more volunteers searching but the sheriff's Department does put out a news release later, that same day that clarifies things a little bit more and basically they say, Hey, this is rough terrain out here we're having trouble keeping track of every single volunteer coming in and out and if someone gets hurt like we may not be able to go get them the help that they need because this is such a remote area so. It kind of makes sense out there in the woods. It's actually reasonable enough for me to think like, Hey, we don't want to put someone else in danger. So right they didn't actually stop the search for Dior. They're just not using civilian volunteer helpers anymore it's more like a public service decision right so around this same time, then something happens tracking dogs pick up a scent, the pickup this sent out on stone reservoir and the searchers heart just drop according to Andrea lots in the Burlington free press. The dogs are brought in on day one to try and trace yours movements and you know in a worse case scenario, find his body. No one. Wanted this little boy to defy statistics and be found dead. But if the evidence is there, they have to follow it and get the truth. There's just one problem as they quickly discover the search area has been contaminated. What do you mean by contaminated? So according to Heather truly article on Inquisitor Dot Com someone and I swear I never saw anything like I couldn't find hardly any details around this but someone had come out just on reservoir and. Scattered the CRA Maine's of a loved one around the water. So when the dogs got a hit, this is the sense that they're picking up on and fixating on. It's what they're trained to do. Right like they're just fixating on the wrong person right now, this blunder kind of forces the sheriff's deputy to admit that they really didn't secure the area properly, which allow this person to get in with the ashes sometime after your went missing or I mean even. Potentially it could have been before he went missing again. They have no idea when this person came because they didn't cordoned off the area or keep the steam secure I mean almost at all, they had people kind of like roaming free coming in and out and I mean it's hard to do right like it's a large state park. No personally I don't think this was malicious. I don't think someone did this to throw police off and police don't treat it. Like a deliberate attempt to throw them off either but they're embarrassed and they know that they wasted days searching for something that has nothing potentially to do with the case, and this is an awful mistake because police that the racing against time here every minute counts when a child is missing, and so they broaden their search to add more possibilities about what could have happened on that day like could a wild animal has snatched your or could someone have abducted him? Now Police, get rid of the wild animals theory pretty quickly because there's just nothing to support it. If an animal had grabbed your odds are there will be some blood. We would see pieces of his clothes ripped off or maybe one of his boots that had fallen off. Right. But there's nothing like that not a hair, not fiber nothing and too I. mean he's a two year old boy there's no way. Dior would have gone quietly a wolf or a bear or something came and dragged him off someone would have heard something I mean even Bob who's in failing health and on oxygen twenty, four hours a day would have heard a little boy screaming. So he was oxygen and had like wasn't in great health. As a parent. I'm wondering why you would like leave your child with someone like that I don't get me wrong. GRANDPA's and Greg GRANDPA's are amazing I rely on them a ton. But if I knew that someone wasn't in the shape to run after my kid, I don't know how comfortable I feel with that two year olds are fast. I can vouch for that. I was just GonNa say maze like everywhere all the time like you can barely keep up with her yet I guess it kind of Baffles me as to why like dealers parents would be very honky Dory with a situation I don't know right like. So I think that maybe since it was a family trip and Bob had been to that several times before like maybe just didn't really crossed their minds you know I. Mean, Jessica and Burnell trusted. So while police are still digging into these possibilities and searching for Dior big outside help when the FBI offers their assistance on July thirtieth. Now shortly after this in August, a parallel investigation pops up when a retired US marshal named frank built offers, his services to Jessica and for no as a private investigator right away frank sets up his own tip line and starts conducting his own interviews with Jessica or no. Bob and Isaac, and he starts working his own angles while law enforcement keep going down their own pat. But little do police know their path is quickly going to change because Franks findings are about to change the way everyone views dior disappearance. This episode is made possible by some soil these days it seems like people are putting cbd in everything. So there's a lot of noise, but there's one company from Vermont that's worth the hype and that's son soil. Sons, oil makes. CBD OIL THAT IS USDA certified organic. If you didn't know see media is made from hemp plant. So how the hemp is grown really matters. Son Soil farms their in Vermont and they never use pesticides they never use herbicides or GM. And I love that soil is so transparent because they clearly label on everything the amount of CBD that's in each serving and best of all you guys know we love a company that gives back they donate one percent of their sales to environmental and community causes. Sons oil makes the oil with simple organic ingredients and you can get thirty percent off your first order by going to sun soil dot com slash cranky junkie. That's S. U. N. S. O. L. DOT COM slash crime junky for thirty percent off your first order son soil dot com slash crime Janke. Frank is only on the case for about a week when he comes up with a theory to him, the only plausible theory is that Dior was kidnapped. Now this whole time, the Lemhi County Sheriff's never viewed kidnapping as a strong possibility the probability to them was just too low. You see there's just one road that goes in and out of the Timber Creek Campsite. So pretty much it's a straight one way shot. So anyone in a car would have had to use that road and their car would make noise people would have heard it and same thing with off road vehicles like a four wheeler that's gonNa make noise to if the kidnapper took off on one of those Jessica. Vernal Isaac and Bob All told police that they didn't hear anything like that and when you think about it, it's even less likely that a potential kidnapper would be on foot. So to police that kind of just like rules out the theory and they never put out an amber alert or treat dior like a kidnapping victim in those early days that he vanished, but to frank probable or not he's sure that that's where the evidence is pointing him and he even comes up with a possible suspect. So remember when I told you that Jessica and Bernal took your into town the morning that he went missing Yeah so Jessica tells frank in his team that while they were at that stage. General store she noticed a strange man was staring at Dior and put her on edge because like in her gut, the way this guy was looking at her baby just felt wrong like he was fixating instead airing for way too long. So she ended up getting out of there because of that she describes this man as being in his fifties with long white hair that was curly at the bottom and just go also says that he drove a jeep now that's not allowed to go on right like not for frank and certainly not for law enforcement but according to people, magazine Investigates About a week later, Franks tip line gets a call from a woman who says that she was. Out Hiking with her little boys who are about the same age as your when she saw a guy out there in the woods and she got that exact same feeling Jessica did like this guy was looking too closely at her kids and maybe even like following or stalking them her description of this guy that she saw out in the woods matches the Guy Jessica said that she saw at the stage I mean right down to the black jeep rubicon that the man was driving frank shares, his concerns and his evidence with law enforcement both the Leme High County sheriff's and the FBI take this seriously and they do get involved hoping that this is the breakthrough that they've been waiting for. The find the owner of this black jeep rubicon and he goes in for questioning and while he says like, yeah, I'm friends with that stage stop manager. He's like I wasn't at that store the day that you're went missing and he's also got an alibi that checks out which puts investigators right back at square one. Throughout this family's worst nightmare, the police and the sheriff's are relieved that Jessica, vernal is it and Bob stay cooperative the all volunteer to take polygraph tests and Jessica Vernal do their part to keep your in the public eye even as August passes into September and the case starts going cold. While all of this is happening local law enforcement has really seen how the community has rallied around. Jessica infernal I mean, these people are holding vigils organizing fundraisers to help pay for expenses and they keep up a pretty steady stream of social media posts to keep attention onto yours case. And then one day in the middle of September, a couple of months after your went missing facebook explodes after a picture appears online of an unidentified little boy who was just found in Stanton California, which is down near La I mean this is over a thousand miles away from where your was last seen, and this Bowie just happens to look a lot like dior here but I'm GonNa send you these two pictures side by side there from the East Idaho News and Utah me which one you think is dior, and which one you think is the boy that was found Oh man. These kids really similar. It looks like the same kid. Yeah. But I think I'm GonNa say that the one on the left in the lime green shirt is dior. Yes. Yes. You're right but it's bizarre right? Like they have the same to me. The same shape is their noses at the same the mouse be blonde hair yet even cut of there. It is bizarre how similar these to look. So for that reason, this post goes viral. I mean totally bananas because this little boy was found at a motel in stanton with zero clues to who he might be. He was just abandoned their I somehow he ended up there and beyond the striking resemblance, the age matches height matches the weight matches I mean. It could totally be dior. So if this kid is dior than frank was right all along and he really was kidnapped right like that's the only way he could make it all the way down to California exactly and so Lemhi County law enforcement agree that the similarities are striking and they instantly make some calls to Orange County California to follow up. And what they learn is both uplifting and devastating. So by the time they call the child in the photo has already been identified, but it's not do your this little boy had wondered off and had been returned to Hispanic MOMS safe and sound, and he got his happy ending while Idaho. Police have to tell Jessica vernal that their son isn't coming home. This is a real morale blow for law enforcement, but they're not giving up yet. However, there is someone on the case who's giving up. Frank, WHO's Jessica for knows private investigator just up in quits the case out of the blue in September about two weeks after this viral post. Now, he'd only been working for them for about like six weeks in total. At this point. Wait what why would he quit? So at first, he won't say now frank does send the family a resignation letter that privately kind of lays out why he's quitting but there's no way for the public or presser like anyone connected to the case or looking in on the case to know what that resignation says or what reason that he gives. Now, this does feel a little weird to law enforcement. Exactly what to make of it. So they don't think too much of it at the time I mean they still have a little boy to find Jessica for no hire another private investigator, in November, a man named Philip Klein who's based out in Texas and they bring him in to work the case and when he comes, he's really optimistic that he's going to be the guy who's able to solve it. As Philip ramps up his own investigation police and the sheriff's in both Lemhi County and in Boone County where Joran his family live keep up their investigation despite the passing time search efforts out in the forest are hinging on the hopes of making a breakthrough before winter. But despite more dives into the stone reservoir and more scouring the Timber Creek area again and again, and again, they don't get their miracle. And then. In, January two, thousand, sixteen, Frank the investigator resurfaces. He decides to go public with his formal resignation letter that he had sent to Jessica infernal in September, and this resignation letter sets off a media firestorm. This episode was made possible with best teams. So having a job that requires me to read and listen to and talk about really dark things a lot means that I need to check out and engage mind something challenging but not dark interesting but not something that will keep me from sleeping at night and best means really does the trick I'm already a sucker for Mobile Games but best means is my go-to. For an engaging interesting storyline with gameplay that keeps my mind occupied and working like crazy I cannot put it down. I love when levels dumps me for a few rounds and I finally cleared it is such a rush and even though it's supposedly Justin, we'll game it really takes me out of my head and helps me relax and decompress after some of the dark topics I'm around day in and day out obviously. Both play US beans and every now, and then we check on each other to see who has cleared more levels and just going to be honest you guys I m usually leave best beans is free to download literally has millions of five star reviews on the apple APP store and Google play plus my endorsement. So what are you waiting for download best fiends free today on the APP store or Google play? That's friends without the our best fiends. In his resignation letter which he sent to. Id Radios Neil. Larsen Frank Outlines too Jessica in vernal in detail why he's stepping away from the investigation he initially sent this letter to them a few months ago again when he resigned but he waits until January to send it to the press and this letter is damning because he's very suspicious of Jessica and for no and he's angry because he thinks that they lied to him here, Brett I want. You to read the full resignation letter because I think it's super important. Okay. So the resignation letter says Dear Dior and Jessica as I previously informed you today via text your cellular telephone at eight thirty one. Am I am withdrawing from the investigation because of circumstances beyond my control including but not limited to a breach of trust on your part concerning refusal to allow me to make this case national I'm perplexed as to why did not want me. To advertise the twenty thousand dollar award I was willing to put up funds in the hope that the public could provide information leading to the whereabouts of your son when I agreed to assist you I informed you that I would work for my out of pocket expenses. I was willing to forego my normal hourly fee. My stipulation was that both of you would be absolutely truthful idol both of you that if I felt that you were not telling. The truth stalling me or otherwise misleading me the I would withdraw from the investigation in my professional opinion both of you lied and misrepresented the true facts that could solve the mystery of you're missing sudden. There are other aspects of this case I cannot go into at this time, but simply put I, believe the searches will all be non-productive. The searches are only used by you to cover the possible crime that one or both of you may have committed. My suggestion is that you fully cooperate with the Lemhi County Sheriff and tell the truth. I do not appreciate the fact that one or both of you are spreading rumors that you have paid me. I have not received reimbursement to cover my expenses I. also feel that you're exploiting the public financial gain. How can you live with yourselves sooner or later the truth will come out roof. So that is really kind of cryptic. No. Well not even two cryptic kind of pointed. But like the sooner or later it will come out is eerie to me but maybe I missed it did you mention a reward at all earlier? No, you didn't miss it but that's the whole thing. So from his letter, it sounds like he wanted to advertise reward, take this case national and according to his letter, put up personal funds for it, but it seems what he's insinuating from this resignation letter is that they told him not to. So when this comes out, police are stunt, but here's the thing Franks. Not The only one who thinks for now and Jessica have not been totally honest after being on the case for. About six weeks, the family's second private investigator Philip who's turning over everything he finds to police is starting to have his own suspicions. A big part of his doubt is coming from Brunel and Jessica's polygraph results because we how I said earlier that they had volunteered to sit down for polygraphs like back in August or something like that will they've both done the test multiple times between August and up to January and both Jessica and no failed not once but multiple times over the course of the investigation. Now, Renault for his part gets angry when he's asked about feeling the tests and he lies the Phillips team about the results while Philip is still working with the family and. Goes from being like this mild-mannered Grieving Dad on TV to like how dare you when he's confronted by his own private investigator and he gets very like in your face condescending and super defensive like I want you to listen to this, listen to him talk to a member of Phillips team in this recording that was released to k TV be news and tell me what you think. Why did you lie to me about your polygraph test? Because that's what I was. Told check bears an interview. Jack Wordsworth. Enclosed him but I say in conclusion task whereas exact words to me. I. Never Lied Anybody. Okay. Because when We've been told something completely different that they told you that you absolutely failed with deception. Oswego if that's how this. Middleton until proven innocent doing everybody. Yes, he sounds really defensive he does right and so this puts Phillips investigative senses right on edge like something isn't adding up here. So he tells Vernola Jessica that he suspicious and he has his doubts about their stories and as I'm sure you can imagine that relationship breaks down in a hurry and basically right away Phillips contract is terminated I mean pretty much the same day that he tells her Nolan Jessica all of this and that's the relationship is over except Philip isn't. Even though he's not working for yours parents anymore, he is still suspicious as all get out and he claims an anonymous member of yours extended family pays him to keep investigating. Now the Lemhi County Sheriff's agree with Philip, suspicions and on January twenty, fifth two, thousand, sixteen this is six months after your vanished. His parents are publicly named as suspects in his disappearance according to Kaby TV news the sheriff. Decides to name them suspects because the stories that they tell both local law enforcement and the FBI about what happened that day keep changing even little things like weird. Yours favorite blanket was and we're his SIPPY Cup. Wise like kept changing every time that they tell their stories and listen it's one thing to get little details wrong because trauma does weird things to the memory but Jessica and Renault. Go. Beyond that way beyond way let me just give you an example. So like they went to that stage, stop in town to get some stuff right? So Renault tells investigators that your got really excited by this beer deliveryman parked out front and the delivery guy was super nice and even took your like sit in his truck but police and private investigators found the delivery guy and he's like, I have. No idea what you're talking about I never saw a kid I certainly never put a kid in my truck because that's a violation of company policy. So are like, why are you lying about this and for Jessica's part she tells investigators about a guy who was working at a feed store and he was like pumping diesel and playing with Dior through the truck window when they stopped to fuel up. Again, they find this guy and he too is like I never saw a kid in a car. So all of these changing stories and provable. Are really making the police like side appearance pretty hard yeah and they were like such weird things to lie about to like. Completely, unnecessary embellishments to release simple quick run to a store in my opinion like. Detailed enough to make it sound believable but vague enough for them to believe that the police couldn't really track them down in their lives but but obviously, they did right like they did track these people down and to me these people that they track down like it makes no sense for these strangers to lie like if they saw a boy or interacted with the boy, they would have said it. So it makes no difference to these random people. They'll just tell the truth but the. Truth is directly contradicting Jessica and Brunel statements and what they're saying. Okay. So the parents obviously can't keep their stories straight or even settle on one story, but what about Isaac and Bob like are their stories checking out? So here's the thing and I think it's super interesting. So Isaac story is consistent but Bob's isn't an obviously bob is like the one related to just convert all according to East Idaho News Bob told Phillips investigators that he thought that there was an accident out at the. Campsite. But he wouldn't tell them anything else about what might have happened or what would make him think that an accident had happened and since we know Phillip worked for them from November of two thousand, fifteen to January of sixteen. Bob had to have made this statement sometime in that timeframe. But get this on a two thousand seventeen episode of people. Magazine Investigates About this case which was called whereas baby. Dior Bob. Told them that Dior was playing over to the side of him after Jessica. In vernal left to go fishing. So he's saying like your was out of his direct line of sight. He glanced over every once in a while to make sure that was still there and he was like fine and then maybe just kind of went missing. So it's like another inconsistency like in two thousand seventeen, he doesn't bring up this idea of a probable accident at all but wait didn't Bob originally think that your with his parents and the parents thought joys with Bob yes. So it's Missiles so frustrating like it's super hard to put this on a timeline in when these stories are being said who they're being said to. But yet from what I can find, there's like three very distinct stories that Bob is telling as well and I mean again, we know his health is failing. We know he's So is this him lying and being manipulative or is this a sign of feeling agent in memory and something like that I? I. Honestly don't know. Yeah. Like there's so many stories at this point in time and now bob is adding even more and you're right like we know that the human mind is fallible in general when it comes to memory but this seems even more extreme than that. Yeah. I mean for Bob inconsistent stories to make sense to me. I. Mean someone would have to come out and be like he suffers from dementia because it's not like Oh dear. was playing to my left and really he was playing to my right I. Mean you've got one where he's with you. He's not with you and all of a sudden like an accident that you're talking about. It's very, very strange and all of these changing stories make the entire family worse in worse in the eyes of both the public and police and the one supportive community eventually turns against them even the local law enforcement who usually temper their words in public go on the record with some pretty harsh words, dilemma, county sheriff. At the time, this is a guy named Len. Actually, says it has to be a homicide. Those were his exact words but even with the numerous failed polygraphs and the lies and the changing stories, Idaho law enforcement know that they don't have enough to build a case against Jessica and vernal. So while they are named as suspects are not arrested then in March two, thousand sixteen were now eight months after that fateful day out at Timber Creek Philip drops a bombshell he goes on record with the east. Idaho. News. Announces that Cadaver Search Dogs got some hits back during that initial search in July and it's weird sort of. Cagey about whether or not it was the same hit that came from the ashes scattered at stone. Reservoir which we already talked about like that's everyone's I thought like dude, you're late to the party I heard about that turned out to be nothing but Philip kind of persists with like this insinuation being that this is a different hit, but he won't elaborate on it because he says, he doesn't want to damage a potential prosecution. So it's kind of a big question mark and since Philips a civil investigator I mean he's got different jurisdiction and rights in police officers conducting an investigation. Now, the Idaho law enforcement don't see him as being like a hindrance or anything. There's kind of like mutual respect or. At least the same common goal of finding the truth about what happened to your so I think he might be I mean to what he says he might be trying to protect the investigation, protect the prosecution, but obviously, he's also getting a little bit frustrated that you know they're not doing what he feels like they should be he's trying to like drop hints here and they're kind of like even though he is cooperating with them, they may not be cooperating with him we but here's the thing that's not all Philip has to say because he claims Jessica told him that she knows where yours body is. According to Philip Jessica broke down in an interview with him and admitted to knowing the location of your body and just when thinking like Oh, well, you know he doesn't work for law enforcement he got fired maybe he's just taking his own hunch too far in like making stuff up. He also says that she didn't just confess to him. He says that she also broke down in an interview with law enforcement and told them the same thing which to me is a huge. Accusation and it sounds like the cases over right well, not quite because as Philip tells the reporter Jessica clammed up super height after that and wouldn't say anything else about it neither to him or police bill didn't give a good time line of when Jessica made this revelation. But since he only worked for them for a couple of months, my guess is that it happened some time between November and January timeframe note to be super clear I couldn't find anything to corroborate Philip. Story About Jessica telling him or law enforcement that she knew her son's body was but get this while Jessica strenuously denies ever admitting such thing to anyone. It seems like it could be a possibility because the actually offer her an immunity deal in exchange for telling them where your is in two thousand, Nineteen Jessica herself admitted to the offer being put on the table but she's never clarified exactly when it happened now obviously, police have already named her as a suspect along with. Her fiance, they're already suspicious of them. So I mean they might have made this deal offer as a shot in the dark something to like shake the case loose right or any maybe it could be a little bit more pointed if she had slipped up at any point in time and said more than she meant to then maybe that's why they made the offer they made it confident that she could take them to wear. He was now police have never commented on this so. Any opinions either way would just be speculation. Ultimately. The whole thing just raises a ton more questions in a case that's practically bursting with them even though Phillips claims led to increase suspicion and scrutiny around Jessica, inver no Idaho law enforcement still don't file any charges and the case stays. Colt. Except Philip isn't finished with his revelations. and. His next revelation poses even more disturbing questions. Episode of, possible, with hellofresh? So last weekend, I was online and saw a family friend asking about meal Kit Delivery Services specifically about hellofresh folks the speed at which I really commented about how much me and my feeling love hellofresh was like lightning hellofresh America's number one meal kit for a reason not only do they offer convenient delivery right your you can actually save like forty percent by using hellofresh shopping meals at a local grocery store plus there are an incredible offering of deliver options every week. So you can always try something new. My most recent phase has been the chicken Bacon and Mozzarella Ravioli with Kale in a creamy garlic parmesan sauce. It is fantastic calories smart and quick. In fact, you can get hellofresh raspberries on the table in thirty minutes or less, and right now you can go to hellofresh dot com slash crime chunky eighty and use code crime junkie eighty to get a total of eight dollars off your first month including free shipping on your first box. That's total of dollars off your first month including free shipping on your first box. When you go to hellofresh dot com slash crime junkie eighty and use code crime junkie. Eighty additional restrictions apply please hellofresh dot com for more details. In July two, thousand sixteen around the one year anniversary of when do you were vanished Philip posts along report on facebook claiming that his investigators searched for Nolan Jessica's -partment in their home of Idaho falls and found a toddlers cammo jacket, some Blue Pajama pants and a pair of boots, and if you remember these are the same clothes that Dior was supposedly wearing when he went missing according to K B O. I. News in Idaho Falls Vernal Jessica had been evicted from their property for not paying their rent and when they left, they left behind a bunch of stuff and so Phillips team of investigators got permission from the landlord to go in and look around. So in addition to the clothes Phillips said, they also found some toy cars that Jessica and no had previously said were missing they found a credit card used by an unidentified. Family Friend to buy things Jessica and Renault never told Philip or his team about, but they don't really go into detail about exactly what those purchases might have been or how they relate to the case, but he makes a specific point of talking about it. So at this point, the assumption has to be that never made it to the campsite at all. I mean I. There's the witnesses that supposedly saw him at. The store and they're like, no then there's no trace of him or his close up campsite, and then the clothes he supposedly went missing in our hundreds of miles away. There's no way right. So Phillips firm posted their report on their facebook page and it says that they're investigative team quote cannot find any person that saw the child go up the mountain either the day of the event or the evening before and quote. Here's the only snag though. So grandpa Bob's friend Isaac The guy who story has been consistent this whole time the guy who was fishing when or went missing. Yeah. He is adamant that your was actually there. So does Philip think that Isaac is lying or? Is he kind of just lumping him in with everybody else and considering him an unreliable witness. I have no idea in an interview with the East Idaho News Phillips said that his team is betting statements Isaac made, but he really doesn't go into detail specifically about those all they're claiming that they don't believe you're ever made at there. I have no idea. How is it plays that? I mean like so much else in this case, there's nothing to one hundred percent prove or disprove what either Isaac or Phillip are saying so. Again who knows it's one big scattered jigsaw puzzle and no one including the police know how to put the pieces together law enforcement ads, Phillips theory to their list but they're not ready to discount the original story that your really was at timber. Creek I guess my biggest question would be like. What makes them think that he was at Timber Creek? You know you know that's what I don't know again they're obviously in probably holding stuff back from work I. Don't know if they did find something that they're holding onto I. Don't know again if you go back to that those cadaver dog hits that we feel was insinuating happened that was separate from the cranes may be that was something maybe they picked up on his sense of his but the fact that they're not willing to like write it off like the fact that he was ever there I don't really like you said like they added to their. List, they basically aren't ruling any options out. Yeah. Everything's on the table still now phillips claims don't lead to any arrests, but as time goes on and do yours case, stays cold relationship start to deteriorate Jessica and Brunel break off their engagement in two thousand sixteen in the months after they're named suspects and Jessica gets married to another man shortly after and I know we talked before about how you know grief and the grieving process are huge structures on relationship and they can manifest in a bunch of different ways for bunch of different people. So I mean while some people might look at this as a sign of. Whatever I don't think that them separating or her getting with someone else's that strange while an honestly more than anything I see this as a opportunity like if one or both of yours parents were involved in any way and they're not together anymore. It seems like it'd be the perfect time for one of them to flip on the other like we see it all the time. There's no alliance between them anymore. The relationship dissolves. Maybe there's some tension still left. Why not open that door it's interesting. You say that because in September of two thousand Seventeen Jessica made a statement to investigation discovery where she says that she believes ver-. Could have. Hurt Dior. Vernal disputes this immediately of course. But when we look back on everything, we know about the case, the lies inconsistencies, the alleged confession about George Body Jessica being offered immunity the finger pointing to vernal I mean it all just adds up to questions. was there an accident that got covered? Did something premeditated happened to him? Did he ever even make it up to that campsite and if he did, where could he have gone that police didn't search like I just want to take this case and shake it until everything comes loose and we finally get the truth. As recently as the summer of two, thousand and nineteen, the Lemhi County Sheriff's department is still making trips out to timber creek to search the area with cadaver dogs on the hunt for missing pieces according to the K TBB news report from July of last year, the dogs get a hit and find a bone but after the bone is sent to the FBI to be analyzed, it came back is just belonging to an animal. So to me at least if law enforcement are bringing dogs out there four years afterwards. I feel like they think that Dior might have really been at the campsite and is still out there somewhere. So I mean I agree it from everything they're doing from everything they're saying it's still seems like they are so focused on that campsite and whether that means they think it was an accident or a murderer is kind of anybody's guess since we have no idea what really happened to this poor kid and law enforcement has never officially clarified if there are one hundred percent certain dior was out there or not or what happened to him. As of today, no charges have ever been filed against Jessica. knoll. Bob Or Isaac Bob passed away in two thousand nineteen and to date do yours case is still officially opened and if he is alive, he would now be seven years old. If you have any information that might lead to solving this case, please call the Lemhi County Sheriff's Department at two, zero, eight, seven, five, six, eight, nine, eight, zero. If you WANNA pictures from this story or to view our source material. You can find all of that information on our website FRY junkie, podcast Dot Com and be sure to follow us on Instagram at come Jacky podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Huh. Crime. Junkie is an audio chuck production. So what do you think chuck deal? Breath?

Vernola Jessica Dear Dior Isaac Bob Vernal Isaac Lemhi County Sheriff Dior Idaho investigator Philip FBI Phillip Jessica Frank Timber Creek Lemhi County Jessica Vernal George Body Jessica Creek Timber Creek
Episode 247: Painting with Judaism - Dan and Lex

Judaism Unbound

50:22 min | 9 months ago

Episode 247: Painting with Judaism - Dan and Lex

"Support for this episode of judaism. Unbound comes from the osman family. Jcc in palo alto california whose vision is to be the architects of the jewish future. The schmidt family jcc as an incubator for new expressions of jewish identity. It creates innovative. Jewish learning celebrations arts programs. That inspire personal connections to people and ideas from across the jewish world learn more at. Www dot palo alto jcc dot org this judaism unbound episode two hundred forty-seven painting with judaism. Welcome back everyone. I'm dan leaving sin. And i'm lecturing and before we jump into our look back discussion on this series on women and feminism and judaism. We wanted to start as we often do in these look back episodes by just thanking you so much for your support of judaism unbound over all these years. We're getting close to our five year mark. Not quite there yet. That's going to happen in march. But in the meantime we are just so grateful for all the emails that we get from listeners. And all the suggestions that we get. I want to note that. There's another way that you can help us. Actually to other ways one is that you can go on the apple podcast app or i tunes or anywhere else. Actually i should mention that we are now an audible dot com. So if you listen to audio books all the time like me you can also find judaism unbound there but in any event if you could go to wherever you listen to podcasts and rada review of judaism unbound or at least give us a five star rating that actually helps people find the podcast and one of the things that we were talking about recently with. Somebody was how many listeners we have and they asked. How did you get so many listeners. And we said we're kind of advertising do you. Do he said what we do. A little bit of boosted facebook post every week but they were pretty amazed that that was enough to get as many listeners. As we have. And that's all things to the word of mouth and all the recommendations that you do on these apps so that would be really helpful thing that you could do for us in honor of maybe hanukkah president coming up and the other hanukkah president that you could start to consider it. This time of year is to make a small donation to judaism unbound if you now go to our website at www dot judaism unbound dot com slash donate. You can actually click on the donate button. And it'll give you an option to either make. An annual gift may basically meaning a one time gift or a monthly gift. In other words you can sign up to give something like five dollars a month to judaism inbounder if you're feeling really generous. Ten dollars a month or if you can't afford that much just one dollars a month but whatever you sign up for it will automatically charge your credit card once a month and that is a really great way for us to have a reliable sense of what we're going to have coming in each month and see really terrific way to give and a lot of people like to give that way these days so you can now do that really easily for judaism and bounden and again the way to do that is to go to. Www dot judaism unbound dot com slash. Donate so one program note before we get started. We are recording this episode the day before so. We don't know what happened in the election as we're recording this in fact it hasn't really happened yet. And so when you're listening to it though you will know or you might now or you'll know a lot more information than we know right now so we're not talking about the election this week. We'll see what happens after that. But for now we are just wishing you will strength comfort and to have a nice weekend as much as you can and and relaxed this weekend and just listen to you an episode. That was recorded in the blissful ignorance of what happened in the election. Yeah i'll just echo the excitement you mentioned about reviews in different podcast apps. A it like feels really great to read those and honestly even if it's not a perfect review if you have thoughts that you want voice in in those reviews Give the five stars. We love that. But if you want to say something about what you'd like to see in the future we really do read those and it goes a long way so definitely reviews if you're not able to donate financially are just as appreciated so thank you really thinking a lot about the episodes that we've done recently. It really goes back to something that we've talked about time and again this podcast. Which is this distinction between what you could call inclusion. Meaning that judaism is what it is and as we kind of evolve in our thinking about various things that are important we realized oh this community of people this kind of people were insufficiently welcomed into our community before and so we should become more welcoming. And so let's let's now Give women more rights. let's now bring in. Gb tq folks to have a more invited place in our community. Let's Pay more attention to jews of color etcetera etcetera. That's kind of inclusion approach. That imagines that what's going to happen. Is that these people are going to come in. And just find their place in judaism as it's always been and that'll be the end of it and we can pat ourselves on the back for being more inclusive as opposed to another approach which says you know. It seems likely that if a certain class a certain kinds of people have not been involved in judaism in an active way or jewish institutions. I should say in the institutions that we think of as comprising the jewish community. If they haven't really been open to certain category of people. There's a very strong chance that what is happening in those institutions will never really be of interest to that category of people too many members of that category of people and so often i think that to be inclusive turns out to at its best. Be become an invitation to folks to create something profoundly knew that speaks to their understanding of judaism is or could be for them. And i think what's really interesting when we talk about the category of women. I'm excited about some of the things that we've seen over the last few weeks precisely because they are different from the notion that women would be entering into the set of institutions that were already there in the jewish community and just taking taking a spot in leadership or in participation but in fact we see these organizations being created. That in many ways are sort of profoundly rethinking. Judaism like cohen is profoundly. Saying what would it look like to have. A jewish community led by and centered on the experience of women. And you see that they even have a new category of the title of the leader so instead of being led by. Rabbi it's led by a priestess in the case of torre ta the regenerator torah. You see somebody saying. Hey you know it may be that the very the tower itself doesn't work once. We say that this is a space that women should feel absolutely that they own and so here we have to we and so i was particularly wowed by the comment. That you made that simply. The active region during the torah allows her to read it in a way that reading the torah before always felt in some way like reading. Somebody else's work somebody being invited maybe into somebody else's home and his as welcoming as somebody may be when they invite you to their home. There's a real difference between that and you know buying your first house and welcoming others into your home yet for me. I'm really. I'm flashing to the beginning of our unit or at least close to the beginning of our union and also some of the recent episodes. I wanna try to like bring some stuff together. Because i'm thinking of two key moments on this front that you bring up of like inclusion on the one hand like yeah. We've we've got our thing we've got judaism and we're gonna open it up to other people we're going to include people versus the idea that actually folks that are that are not centered in that judaism will be the ones to set the tone and we Who have been included in the past will follow them to different impulses. So i'm flashing back with judith. Rosenbaum the episode. We did about the jewish women's archive she spoke about. I i loved this. She was like you know. Some of the most popular pages on our website are the pages for biblical women. Are the pages for divorce. Deborah for miriam jewish. Women's archive has all sorts of pages on their website for various jewish women from the recent past in american history from the more expensive broader. Pass going back to history beyond just america and they have biblical women like deborah. Like miriam and those are the ones that get the most traction and she was expressing frustration at that and i think part of why those pages get so much. So many clicks is precisely because we're trying to play this inclusion game right we're trying to mine the depths of judaism as we have inherited as we have seen it and say. Oh we're going to. We're going to scraping claw to find the the women's voices that we can and look. There are women's voices in the bible. They're not that many and sometimes they're not all that flattering but we can find deborah. This judge in the book of judges we can find. Miriam in exodus and throughout the rest of the five books of moses. So that's a great place to go if you're looking at the existing tradition and saying We have to play on this field. We have to and we wanna find women's voices that are on that field. If you wanna play a different game you could go to the entire rest of the jewish women's archive website and say. Oh my gosh. There's hundreds upon hundreds of jewish women who their stories are important and they made important contributions whether it's jewish society or to the broader world. But we've never really called them. Judaism i don't think i mean i thinking about emma lazarus because a bunch of fringe just spoke about. Emma lazarus the the poet who wrote the poem on the statue of liberty. I think people think of her as a notable woman in history in american history the some of them might even know she's jewish and think of her as a notable jewish woman in history. I don't know how many people think of her as part of like judaism think of the new colossus the poem about welcoming immigrants into america which we could find all sorts of jewish residences. But like i don't think people think about it as a document of judaism alongside the torah and the talmud and everything else and that's what brings me to the other side of this which wreck and torre ta her torah which is taking on one hand. You could argue. It actually is a little bit of an inclusion maneuver right. Because it's taking the most centralized text of judaism that we've had. Which is the torah and eventually the bible and its flipping the genders. But i do think there's a way in which that's more radical than just accepting tradition as it's been because it really is flipping everything around. I mean i think traditionalist would would feel that you are in fact changing the very text of this sacred book and in doing so changing its meaning and i think they're right and that's why i want to do it. Hearing you talk about that and also listening to our guests. It really makes me confront in my case. Gendered white man. I there's a level at which you really don't fully understand as much as you try as much as you want to try. I think there's a level at which i just can't understand in the sense of it in my body right and understand it intellectually but in terms of feeling in my body. What is it like to read literature and to find it kind of impenetrable. Because you don't see people like me there because they're always people like me there and it really struck me when you're l was talking about how simply the active region during the torah and just making it so that when you read the same exact stories in your own gender that that makes it accessible in a new way and i'm not necessarily suggesting that that's the solution. I worry that there is no solution. Meaning that i actually. I shouldn't say that i worry that. There's no solution. I actually liked the idea that there's no solution because i've been advocating all along for something that tracks the approach of disruptive innovation rate which really says that when there's a when there's some kind of dominant entity in a in a marketplace whether it's an organization concept or whatever that one way to address it is to try to change it but often it can't really be changed enough because the current participants in it. Don't wanna let it change that much. So as somebody who says the only way that i can participate in this thing. If it's very different from the way it is now. There may not be any road to make that different through the existing network of institutions and concepts that are there because there's an equal and opposite or stronger in opposite force trying to pull it in the other direction. But there's another option that's available which is to say. Hey we can rebuild this. And the way that i'm still trying to find just the right metaphor but to my mind. It's kind of like looking at something that was once a machine and all the parts fit together and where to long together into say well. Let's look at that instead of as a machine. Let's look at that as a pile of parts like it just fell apart and now it's a pile of parts. Now we can go to that pile and say which pieces do we want to rescue and bring over to another place and build a new machine out of it. What would a judaism three point. Four point oh look like that was built from scratch by all the people who had previously been kept out of the central roles in the oh judaism and some of the people that were in roles. Neil judaism in other words. I don't think that there shouldn't be any men involved in that rebuilding. It's it's what would it look like if it was a a team. Effort of all the people who we now believe should be central in the building of something called judea zimmer the next version of judaism and they were able to use as many parts from the old judaism as they wanted and they were also able to use any other parts that they wanted. It's true and i think it is that when you do something like region during the torah and potentially all other works of jewish literature that that would be what gives an entree to many women to feel like. Oh i can finally feel like this is me the that can at least hear myself here. Even though i know that these are stories about men that were just re gendered. If that's the answer then realistically. I'm not sure that you're going to be able to do that. To the whole jewish tradition. And certainly not in a way. That says we're gonna now replace the old stuff with this new stuff not to l. says that that's the goal whereas think you could say. Hey let's all get together and create something new over here that includes some. You know that includes all these other other materials so it actually gives me a sense of excitement that you know maybe if we start to think about women being fifty one percent or more of the population that we can say hey. There's it's not only this small minority groups that have been kept out before but actually a huge group that has been kept up before and if all of those groups team up and say hey let's actually create something new together that maybe maybe there's some hope for doing that. There's a lot here about how this links into our questions of the future of judaism in what it would look like to sort of seed as eeze that future I also this is like a little thing. I know you didn't mean much with this. I've been generally pushing myself not to use the language of women being fifty percent or even fifty one percent of the population just out of love for non binary folks in sort of breaking down the binary because As there are more and more folks who identifies nonbinary though that kind of number gets a little pushed just as a as a thing to think about for all of us Yeah yeah no. That's a really good point. And we got some new language to talk about that. But my major point was a huge percentage of the population as opposed to a relatively small percentage. Yeah but what. I'm thinking about also is i wanna talk about newness stuff being new because we on this show and also all of our guests when we talk about incredible new creations like torre ta like this re gender torah when we talk about cohen when we talk about a lot of cool organizations we instrumentalise the fact that they are new toward. We treat that as like. Oh sure they're new but they can serve to achieve x. y. or z. Amazing goals and. I really believe that i do think that. Part of like part of the magic of regenerating. The torah is what it could lead to down the line in recreating judaism reinventing judaism things that you're talking about. I also feel compelled to say like it's fun to have a new sacred document with new language. It is exciting. It is interesting. And i'm going to be blunt. Look it's boring sometimes to do the same stories year. It's like really on cool to say that. And i. And i'm saying it bluntly specifically because i think it sounds a little harsher than i mean it and like look. I do read these stories every year. I find new meaning in them. I'm not discarding blake. I'm twenty nine. I'm about to be thirty. And i've been deeply embedded in the torah cycle. Not for all of those years. But for let's say ten of those years and i know my i know my takes on a lot of these proportions and do they change as i change sure. Are there certain directions that they just aren't gonna go. And that i feel like i've exhausted myself as a rabbinical student and sooner rabbi yes part of the fun and i'm using fun on purpose. It's not just that it's sacred and beautiful which it is like. It is a powerful thing and it gives voice to those who have been voiceless but part of the fun of having a new text is oh my gosh. i don't have a relationship to amr. Hama the re gendered version of abraham. I have no idea what my approaches as a reader to that story of hama antetok the former the father binding the ladder on mount maria. I don't have a relationship to that. Yes it's close in certain ways to my relationship. With the abraham isaac binding of isaac story. But it's new. And honestly i feel like we gotta be able to say like sometimes. It's just great to have new stuff and we have so much of this. So much of this refrain and jewish life. That kind of what makes this whole thing magical is the fact that it's old and the fact that you know everybody on the planet is reading. The torah portion the same week. Because we've passed it down. I went to that saturday afternoon. Service the yale leads where they read the women's tour and actually had the privilege of chanting from torah it was so refreshing and fund is because it was different than this flashes me back to something we talked about. I don't know way back. When which is what. I try to term like familiarity versus variety. And i think so. Much of jewish life is built on this idea that like people want to feel rhythm and they want to feel like there's a consistency in their life that everything else is rolling around in craziness and so religion or judaism is that thing that provides a pattern and it provides consistency. And i'll be honest with you if that's what judaism were to me. I would not be doing. I would be totally uninterested. It and i would not be rabbinical student. Like the only reason i'm interested in. This is the fact that i feel. I have agency to mess with it and to have it be new because you have the greatest service tailor made for lex on the planet and i would wanna go to it once or twice and then i want to do a different thing and so i'm thinking about that with gender because i to lift that up. In addition to all of the really sacred reasons that this is important specifically because women are being celebrated not just because it's new and different But i also do want to say like it shouldn't be wow. This is so great even though even though it's new it should be. Wow this is so fantastic. And wow. it's a new rewritten torah. That's amazing we don't have to apologize for that. I've been playing with this analogy of painting and judaism that in other words. I'm trying to put judaism into the right category because there are some people that and i respect them. That really do want judaism that is kind of. It's known it's the same every time right the meaning it's comforting. It's if that's what religion is like. You're saying i mean for some people that's that's fine. I'm not suggesting that they should change. And i'm looking for an analogy. That kind of supports that. So i'm saying like for me. Painting is at an action where you take paint and you make something out of it. You take the pain and you put it on a surface and they're all kinds of things that you can do with the paint on that surface. Sometimes it's like painting a wall in your house like painted all one color and it's a neutral color and you're to see the same color every day and that's fine and then there's painting that artists have done for many years in here. I mean painting pictures painting paintings know. And there's all kinds of painting that came out of the western world for so many centuries and it's mostly white people and it's mostly it's mostly men doing heroic things and women in certain doing heroic things but most often in some ways serving man or being used by men and all kinds of things like that and if and if you say like that's what painting is then if i were a women or if i were a person of color i would look at all those paintings and i imagine. This is the experience. A lot of people going to museums and saying. I don't like these paintings. Because i don't see anyone like me there or if i do see somebody like me. They're always doing something that makes me feel kind of itchy. But one could say they're people who go into those museums and see the genius work of the painter and really just appreciate the technique. Okay fine but when we think about painting we don't imagine that if somebody takes the paint and goes off and paints a different kind of picture right a picture where the women or the people of color may be doing something heroic great or where they actually just do something abstract and modern. They have fun with it. You can't say well. There's nothing wrong with that from our perspective today. I think most of us accept that. There are a lot of different things that you can do with paint. And what i'm suggesting. Is that if we understood judaism to be the paint and not the painting not the not the specific way that the paint has been used throughout history. Then that's very empowering possibility that if we understand judaism to be the material of art and not the art itself then. I think that gives us a lot more freedom and when people say. What's jewish about that right when they're talking about a particular new experiment or when you say. Hey we're gonna re gender the entire torah well. That's a violation. Somehow because the tower is meant to be the way that it was. Well think about it in a different way. Think about the torah as being the paint and that the question is what are you. What are you gonna paint with it and if you paint a mirror. Image torah where the where everything is re gendered. That's actually just as traditional as the torres we've received it because it's using the same material just in a different way. I mean that's that's the image that i'm trying to kind of get into the conversation here. I wanna push that even farther. Because you've brought this up before and i love it and it's informed my own thinking in some very deep ways and i want to be really crystal clear about what the paint is because you said something powerful which is the torah is the paint. It's not that the torah is the painting. The tour is the pain weaken. Then paint with it in whatever we do. That's great. i want much beyond. And i think you agree with this. I want much beyond the torah to be the paint. And i think sometimes we're not quite explicit enough with that on this show 'cause when when folks here judaism part of the whole reason behind our name judaism unbound right is. We wanna push what that word means. But i think when people hear judaism is the paint. It's like We can take tower stories and mid joshes fan fiction on the tour stories. We can take tom. We take all these texts of jewish tradition and we can channel those in new ways we can do our own. Which is one level of this. I want the paint to also be emma lazarus's poetry. I want to paint to also be the book of jubilees. enoch that didn't make it into the accepted canon. This is actually bringing me to an episode recently. That wasn't technically part of this series on women but the new jewish canon where we talked about questions like i think this is very relevant here because the paint absolutely needs to be tore. Like we need to accept your presumption that we're not dealing with paintings that we have to go over to in polish and preserve in our museum of judaism is. That's not what we're doing. Like i'm finding myself drawn to when andrew ramer was on the show and he's a storyteller. He's a brilliant storyteller and he spoke about how there was a time where his mom and him needed to hammer something up on the wall in like a new home they were moving into. I forget exactly the specifics but they couldn't find any hammer. They didn't have any hammer so they grabbed a shoe and they use the she was a hammer and like from my perspective. We have abundant shoes of jewish tradition. We're not the shoes for the purposes of this metaphor are inheritances that we have jewish jewish history. Jewish nist jewish culture. All of these things in quotes. There are things that are right there for us as jews that we know part of jewish history. But somehow we think there's just shoes lying around we don't think they are implements to be used for judaism. We think they are sideline things that like sure. They're in our house they're like alongside the nice paintings and the important tools like hammers. But when you say to yourself we can use the shoe as a hammer. We can these pieces of jewish history that were excised marginalized all of a sudden. That project is both exciting and it turns out that when you do that you often amplify voices specifically of folks like women folks like lgbtq folks folks liked use of color because those are the people that have been treated like shoes and not like actual tools for the creation of judaism. I'm thinking about right now. It's the month of font on the jewish calendar. And i have a real pet peeve with how people talk about this month because so frequently i hear folks say hush is this month after tea sri. That's not when shining kapoor's who all of those holidays are bunch of holidays and question. Is this release where there's no jewish holidays. That's what people say wrong. There is a major jewish holiday in the month of cash. Fun it's called sid. It is an ethiopian. Jewish holiday celebrated by the beta israel. Which is a group of jews in africa that traces a long. Long way back. It's a major moment on the calendar. That marks seven weeks after yom kippur. It's parallels the time period from passover. Shallow which is also seven weeks big deal and if that group was the hegemonic group that determined what judaism was and what the paint is. Then we would not be saying. There's no holidays in the month of fund. What it reflects that we say. There's no how is the month of question. Is that white. Jews have written what judaism is and what the paint is and so sure people might know that suggests most. Don't but let's say even the people who knows exists sure that's like a jewish holiday. But is it. Judaism is it rabbinic. Judaism is it american judaism. Like i don't know. I am less concerned with that question. Because from my perspective the whole mission should be finding those pieces that weren't marked as judaism that weren't seen as paint and centering precisely those as we vision the jewish future. Because that's where the excitement is going to be. That's where the energy is going to be. And that's where new meanings going to be. I would note. Also that there's another holiday inn hush von which is that in the ancient biblical times in the northern kingdom. There was a holiday that paralleled sue coat in. Teach ray so start. It was in the fifteenth of hush von was the holiday in the northern kingdom and so So it's not even that we don't have ancient roots for jewish holiday inn in hush run mic drop by the way a lot of people say oh the northern kingdom. That's the bad guys you know in this story like well first of all. That's because the story was written by the people in the southern kingdom. But the truth is is that you're right. Then and also in archaeology we've learned that the ten lost tribes aren't really lost that they actually many of them Migrated south into the southern kingdom and became refugees and kind of merged into the into the southern kingdom of judah but many of us might trace our lineage actually to the ten lost tribes in other words to the northern kingdom right and so in some ways that made actually be are held by the way i will say about women. Also that lets. You think that it's such an innovation or such a dangerous thing to re gender the torah you should ask ourselves. Perhaps the torah as we've received it is somewhat Gendered meaning that. I think it's very likely in fact. This is said about deborah for example. You mentioned her earlier that she was an important judge that that it may be and it seems quite likely that debra was one of the most ancient characters in the in the bible that it very well may be that in the earliest days of israel the earliest days of the people of israel. Meaning that deborah that they were led by women or at least a women and there is a vestige of that reality. Still in the book of judges but largely. It's been kind of written out or or minimize in the bible as we have it. Meaning that the bible as we have it was erasing the role of a prominent women. With miriam song because that was made into moses song right and so there is a. There is a possibility that one could go back and try to rewrite some of those stories of deborah and miriam to try to reemphasize their stories and some people have done those things in novels and elsewhere. But what are the. Who are the women that we don't even know because they've been completely erased from the texts. Meaning the point is. Is that the techs. We've received and i don't and i'm not just talking about the texture and talking about essentially the text of judaism is already one that has been significantly regenerate in favor of men so then the question is what do you do to kind of make a kuhn or repair of that and one possibility just to try to rescue stories but you can always find them so another possibility is like okay. Let's take the men's stories and reach andrew them to be women. They're all kinds of other possibilities. And i'm not necessarily saying that either of those possibilities is the best or the right or the only approach. I think that this analogy of the paint. The tower was made out of paint the judaism that we've received what we have to do. Is we have to. I kind of abstract from it and say what does this made out of. What are the what are the paints that this was painted out of and then we can say. Oh these are the these are the jewish paints. Then we can say okay. Let's take those paints as well as the new jewish paints like you were talking about that have been created since then. Emma lazarus whatever those things might be and of course the paint that were not jewish in the sense that they were seen as jewish from time immemorial but rather new things that we're bringing in whether we see those is like a different color of paint or perhaps we start to see those as mixed media art that we might see where we also use stones and paint and all kinds of things to create more modern art as we as we see in museums today. And there's this question that i think gets a lot of people. Hung up is this question of but is this traditional as this jewish. What makes it. jewish doesn't have to have these components. I think that there's some degree to which components do need to be retained in order to have the sense of continuity from one to the other but which components those are nobody can nobody can say and in fact that the answer to that is often discovered and the other end by whether it works whether people feel connected to it whether people stay with it. And that's the question for me is. How can we empower people to really do that. And to say my task as a jewish leader so to speak is not to step into an existing jewish institution or an existing jewish way of doing things and take a role that had previously been denied to me. That's totally fine. That's totally wonderful. I'm not saying it shouldn't do that. I'm saying there's another option. Which is to say. I'm going to become an artist or even an avant-garde straight and i'm gonna take this this material and i'm going to reshape it in an exciting way at the end of the day i think the solution so to speak the judaism. That's really going to catch on. It's probably somewhere between those two extremes right. It's probably neither going to be the oven guard that turns into something that becomes its own system or the old system migrating. It's likely that the that that that somebody ends up say finding a place in between that says i can take the most exciting things from the avant-garde in the most stable things from the old system and and mix them together and create something cool. But if we don't have enough vanguard then then that person never has the opportunity to select that stuff yet to to keep belaboring the metaphor you used the word solution A literal solution is when you mix when you mix a liquid with water so if you have the paint which is our term for like the avangard judaism and then you mix it with that stable piece which i think water would be as good a stable peace as any water has has for thousands of years been a symbolic player in the meaning makings of judaism and will continue to be. I'm sure You know we could talk about sees of reads. We could talk about torah as water all of that but so paint and water. Maybe that's our solution in the literal chemical sense. I'm i think. I'm i'm realized that we haven't talked about who said mon- today and we're spending our episode talking about pain and we had this previous guests duty bound. Who's a literal painter. And whose whole thing i mean. It's not a stick. It's not a joke but he did this beautiful exhibition and toured around multiple exhibitions. Where he took the chemical compound From the gas chambers of the holocaust and found that found lake. I'm going to get this wrong. With basically what the residue was what. What like the color was that. It created and it's very specific. Prussian blue is the name of the pigment. that's associated with that. And he did all of these beautiful paintings using that precise chemical compound it. It was this powerful reclaiming of this pigment that was used for catastrophic genocide of the jewish people being re mobilized towards a new kind of jewish art and by the way the art he made. It's not as if it was pictures of torah and jewish stars and minora's like it was you could look at these without knowing they were jewish. And maybe maybe you would have no idea that. This is an artist connecting them to the holocaust to jewish tradition etc. But from my perspective. Exactly exactly like we should be taking the various pains the various pieces of our tradition including those painful once. It's important to think about like okay. It's not that we have literal gas chambers of the torah and of the thomma mobilize but we have really terrible pieces of story of narrative that have been mobilized to hurt massive groups of people to hurt individuals. Like and and i think part of what gets people nervous when we talk about like the judaism is paint. And we can just pick and choose as like people think we're gonna just excise all the crappy parts and keep the stuff we like. And that's sort of an easy way out. And no i actually specifically want to look to the pieces of torah of jewish tradition that are most painful and mobilize those as paint to use them in the specific context that they've been used that has been mobilized towards harming lots of people so i think he's shy who said man methodology which he's doing literally he go. Listen to that episode. One fifty-seven he he he literally this pigment and created new art out of it. I think that we as jews would benefit from that but the prerequisite is absolutely what you said in which i'm echoing. Which is we have to see. Ourselves as artists on guard is of. We have to see our subs. As agents in this process and it requires a certain approach to things like kohana things like her torre torre ta All of these. Where the fact of their newness the fact that they're like new methodologies of painting to keep this going doesn't make them less authentic real it actually makes them precisely the point right and then it puts me in the mind of a question of like as i think about these organizations including the jewish women's archive but also i'm thinking about at the well and kohana and then i'm also thinking about the organizations that we talked to in our use of color series like a mood the jews of color torah academy and There's and then. I'm thinking about the lgbt series that we've done like severa being one of the most prominent of spaces that's really an lgbtq focused tomlin study space now. Some of these might invite people that don't fit into their main category of the people that they serve more often than others. But in some ways. I think part of the power of what these organizations are doing and why it's so exciting is because there isn't a lot of pole in the opposite direction because they are not trying to create a space that is for everybody and so they're saying Create a space. That's really largely by and for us now. The question arises is as that happens. You can imagine that things will go off in different directions that may get further and further from each other. I'm thinking a little bit about how the you know the big bang. And who is it. That i think it was hubble that that there's a redshift and all the galaxies are going away from each other. The question is as we start to see. Jewish spaces created for different subsets of jews. And they don't have a gravitational pull where somebody saying to them. Hey you should really not do that. Because the then it's really pulling the community apart you know then they will kind of red shift you know and get get further apart. The question is what is a way to kind of keep them talking to each other or is this. Do you think that this is not important or necessary away to keep them talking to each other talking to other longer-term existing organizations etcetera etcetera to try to create some sense that were still part of the same task of trying to find a judaism that that works for the future that i think the organizations that are long standing and interested in this project recreating judaism find a way to make that a parent. I'm thinking of the national council of jewish women in this unit. Like there's no question to me that they like the project that we're talking about the national council of jewish women for those who didn't listen to that episode is over one hundred and thirty years. I mean it's a long standing legacy organization and a lot of that episode was talking specifically about how they're really jazzed to partner with new projects. I don't perceive a problem where those kinds of projects and newer projects are really hitting up against walls. I think the problem is that there are other kinds of long. Standing projects. Often synagogues other legacy organizations. That really aren't jazzed. Really extra excited by the growth of these newer forms of judaism. It's not that they hate them. But i think there are a lot of places for whom the idea of new projects like this. That aren't the ones that have been centered in each community. Historically is seen as a threat it's seen as our institutions future is at stake and so they might sort of in the abstract like the fact that judaism is vibrant and creating these new possibilities. Practically they don't love that and they wanna have members and so. I think there's this tension there. I think that those organizations are in trouble moving forward. Because i think that they're right on some level that there's a threat and if they continue to see it through that lens and fight against it it's not gonna work I'm thinking of. When i grew up by family watched a lot of tv. It was like a weekly calendar of my life. Which shows that we watched ron nbc and cbs and fox and which night of the week they were on like must see tv. Thursday on nbc. I like i remember watching the office watching the all sorts of shows that we're other those networks were like the thing and you probably anticipate where i'm going with this at a certain point netflix's emerges it's at first you know sending out movies in the mail but then it starts to do the streaming service and i think those networks correctly perceived a threat. There that there are these streaming services that people could access at any given moment of their lives. They could watch multiple episodes in a row. They don't have to wait till next week. And those networks thought to themselves. We might be in trouble. And i remember i. I'm a nerd enough about tv. To actually watch the emmys. I grew up in the. I still do and like every year. All the shows that were nominated for all the main awards forever. We're on nbc. Cbs fox abc. Always like you had to be on those and it was like a huge deal. When a show on fx won the best drama in early two thousands and now i watch these shows and the vast majority of them are from netflix amazon prime from hulu etc. Or maybe they're from networks but they're not from cbs fox or abc there from like hbo those kinds of things and from my perspective that makes sense because these were new projects that had fewer rules in play that we're able to test out a whole bunch of shows at once. See what works you. It didn't they didn't have to worry about time slots in the same way. You're not on tv so you don't have the same exactly thirty minutes with seven and a half minutes of commercials and then. They flipped the entire game. And now the the networks do a lot of work of trying to copy what the other folks are doing. I want jewish institutions to get to that point. I want them to say okay. We have been. We have been led already by these outsider. Projects like we need to take some notes. We're not actually leading. We're not actually the center right now. I don't think they're ready to say that yet. I think they still really feel that. They are the first stop for people and until they realized that that's not the case for emerging generation of jews. That like are very engaged. That are watching all of netflix's to proverbially carry this forward. There's gonna continue to be this tension. And i i'm with you. I'd like it to be one unified project. One thing that i had in my mind was that you know there's a question of how do they relate to the existing institutions. There's also a of how do they relate to each other and i. I think it's interesting to think about like the overlapping membership in some of these organizations like for example there are people that are jews of color that are also lgbtq and they might steady at both of our and a mood and then there are people that are you know women and they may be inspired to be a priestess or to be involved with the priestesses and they're also lgbtq and they study. It's do these things so instead of the connections all being back to the center. Imagine the connections moving to be across among each other. The other thing is that. And i think that this connects to the next series of episodes. That will be doing as a series. We're also going to be doing a few more standalone episodes but the next big series that we're doing is on philanthropy and it's interesting to think about philanthropy through this lens in in a certain kind of way because thick we think philanthropy has fundamentally about generosity about giving giving in supporting but what if we think about philanthropy in a different way. Think about philanthropy as like the netflix. Because in a way. Netflix doesn't really produce. I don't think that's looks is a studio like netflix. Doesn't produce these. These shows itself. What netflix does is it. Gives money to the studios to produce their show so do the networks by the way often. And what. The difference between netflix and nbc. Is that for various reasons. Like some of which you said and also others netflix's able to cast a wider net and so netflix is able to take a lot of chances that the studios can't take or won't take partly because the studios are locked into this hour by hour schedule system and so there are a lot more risk averse if we think about the difference between one. Kind of philanthropist. Right that's that's more like the nbc kind of philanthropist. That says we want to be really careful with what we're doing. We really have a a way that we're trying to preserve things. They're going to be a lot a lot less adventurous in their philanthropy versus who would be the philanthropist who more like netflix. that says i'm going to try a lot of stuff. Some of it's gonna just completely fail and some of them are going to be the big hit show that starts to win all the emmys and everything. I just looked up the root of the word philanthropy like. I realized. i'd never actually had never occurred to me to think. Like what does it mean in the in the original form philanthropy. I kid you not means love of humans like like human loving if allo said an anthropology is humans and fill is like love and so it's like a fascinating move. And i don't know i don't love this. It's an interesting move. That word was applied so fully so completely to the act of giving one's money. Because i think there's other ways that people should and could and do show love of humankind but here we are so we didn't plan that out. We didn't know we were going to do like. Hey everyone come and listen to our next unit. But that's what we ended up doing today and we're not doing it shamelessly like we do think there's a real tie between some of the units we've been doing looking at the voices of women looking at the voices of jews of color looking at the voices of lgbtq jews. We really see that as tying into these conversations we're going to be having looking at our jewish philanthropic world and bluntly how it could change. Thank you all so much for listening. We've really enjoyed traveling through this unit of episodes with you. We really sincerely completely fully deeply love when you are in touch with us. Especially when you've just listen to a bunch of our episodes you've got a fresh take of your own. You've got a question you've gotta thought whatever it is. Please shoot us a note. There's a bunch of ways for you to do that. I you can head to our facebook page. Judaism unbound second. You can go to our other. Social media accounts instagram twitter. All of them are judaism. unbound third. You can go to our website. Judaism unbound dot com and then last but not least you can email us at dan. Judaism unbound dot com or lex. Judaism unbound dot com like. Dan said at the top. We really do appreciate whatever. Act of ready for it philanthropy. You can send our way. We mean that in the expansive loving sense. We mean it. Both as if you're able to give us money which you can do it. Judaism unbound dot com slash donate on the monthly recurring donation basis. Or as a one time gift or you can do via a review in podcast app which we also experience as being loved as humans. So go to apple podcasts. Google podcasts go to overcast. Whatever you use and give us a review. All of that is deeply appreciated. And we just huge gratitude to you for wandering with us whether this is your first episode your two hundred and forty seventh episode or whatever in between so thank you so much everybody for listening and with that this has been judaism unbound.

debra Emma lazarus fifty one percent torre five year one dollars miriam jewish Neil judaism judea zimmer one hand cohen hama antetok mount maria abraham isaac miriam osman jcc Ten dollars five dollars joshes
Carolla Classics: Rotten Tomatoes, Dr. Drew, and Throwing Stars

The Adam Carolla Show

1:01:13 hr | 1 year ago

Carolla Classics: Rotten Tomatoes, Dr. Drew, and Throwing Stars

"Thanks for listening to the Adam Corolla show on podcast one. Well we've made it to the end of Corolla classics will be back on Monday with a brand new show and I appreciate it appreciate US going into eleven eleven years. We're going to cross the eleven year mark and I don't know seven eight weeks so we got that to look forward to also In go to chassis. C. H. A. S. Y. DOT COM. And take a look at all the great content there uppity shipping. You can check out my new new book which I think is up for preorder on Amazon. Is it called. I'll be your emotional support dog or something like bat at some stupid name you can go find it just goes search around and pre-order Amazon's funny book and and Crawl Dot Com for all the live shows around the country so now enjoy and enjoy your last Corolla classic before we get into brand new original content coming Monday day. Hello Welcome back to Curl Classics Essex for January Third Twenty twenty the show we highlight the greatest moments of the Adam. Corolla show almost eleven years of podcasting under that man's belt best clips. He's ever recorded for his own confusion. He hits eleven years on the episode. That post on February twenty third twenty twenty and that begins the twelve year and the twelfth year commences when it's the following two twenty three twenty twenty one. He'll never understand I. It bothers me every time he forgets. Because I forget even though I haven't forgot I am. I confused I know what that was. All right let's come with some clips. You're probably wondering. Who are these people talking? The names Chris Rock's exact producer the am Croatia and that other guy that's cruel archives superfan. Giovanni everybody in Haiti yu-gi-oh now let's get going awesome clips this first clip from twenty thirteen and it's the original throwing stars discussion featuring the most famous cast cast member from diehard Robert. Davi David Wild rose and Brian Bishop. This is from March twenty thirteen. It's s award winner original throwing stars discussion. You can also carry on the cross ticks billiard and hockey sticks. He pulls after two golf clubs. Did you know that you couldn't find with golf. Clubs mom well James Baby Doll. Dixon is Work this way around this little conundrum. What does he do? He's got a set of golf clubs at every in every how it's sort of like Ricky Nelson and traveling man like you just replaced the women with golf clubs. And that's what baby any port in a storm. Find that song you know what I'm saying. He and steadily what happens to Republicans they replace the women with packing your bitch yes CAV CAV one in every port smart yeah smart right savers defying and. They're saying that this is because the reason they're changing. The rules is because of the hold up these types types of items causing check point although. I think I speak for a lot of golf when I say down faster. Every course I keep some clubs Catolica sand wedge down Down in Vero still can't bring needs waivers. What's brings grass macos? I was telling stars. Billy clubs stores cattle prods. They're still not allowed. I would guess that the throwing star throwing stars never not worked in a movie. Yeah but in real life West is much lower batting average in real life. I don't think I've ever even seen one throwing stars stars you'd never do those In the movie it'd be a life film and they work every time the guy right in the eye and its lowest percentage throw there is the knife thrower throwing star. It takes the guard and by the way you have to take the guard out silently. Let me tell you what I would sound like. I got hit with rolling stock. What the fuck fuck? Oh my bucket shoulder oh damn this. Who the fuck? Where's my fucking alarm? I'M GONNA on. Oh that's what it would sound like. It would not be denied. Hit the ground. There'd be a lot of pissing and moaning mostly pissing. Who Do this to somebody? Pro Steve Come here rental cop. Goddamn I'll the fuck fuck it just had this fucking uniform clean just had it press. Just got it back on the fucking dot dammit. There's another fucking throwing star. I I am sounding the alarm so fucking loud on your ass and I'm shooting you when I find you it would be the exact opposite of what you're trying to attempt growing rolling star. If I ever had to throw throw it underhand and I would miss. I feel like almost all the Ninja tactics nunchucks numb chucks. Be the same shit that heard the far. This sucks what our my elbow. They do the glass fragment or they throw the crushed glass in your eyes. It'd be more belly mom. Come on there'd be a lot of noise. It should be does that that would be hysterical. Reaction Sneak up on the guy a throw the knife the throwing star and have it like sticking his fleshy part of his upper arm to start screaming martial arts do. Have you ever done the karate chop thing onto a piece of wood and do you think if you did that it would actually break well coming from a guy who worked for would work with wood for living. I can tell you that there's a karate chopping being would which is noddy dried up knotty pine which has basically the tensile strength of Mata. But you don't see him trying it with plywood oriented Strand Board or hardwoods such as oak and woods like that that you karate chop a a piece. Okay it'll break your hand you cry chop piece of dried out knotty Pine Hanukkah right through it. So it's always brittle stuff as a matter of fact if you ever ever want to know what's good an earthquake and what's not good in an earthquake just watch one of these late night karate tournaments on ESPN three they're breaking cinderblocks and and they're breaking knotty pine but they'll never break plywood no-one karate chops stucco nobody karate chops a sheer wall or two by fours wars or anything that's made up like oriented Strand board or something like that Glue Lambie more parallelism may have all these terms used to be my in life. It was my life Robert like Sinatra Passion. My grandfather was A in. The work in a lumber yard would was his passion father's father father. That's that's being him would be impasse. Robert Davi the singer. And and also the greatest cast member from diehard back in twenty thirteen in the original throwing stars discussion. Also Ace award. There are two other infamous throwing in-store eclipse. That's right. I know we under completely different. They they are completely different. And I think that's the ticket if you want to have a legendary moment on the show bring enough throwing stars and just see. Throwing stars is a parking attendant who throws ticket throwing stars. So he said that's the ticket you're literally describing one of the joke that's trey. That was a live show. Yeah Alright. Let's get going with this next clip. This is from last year February. And it's a fun clip with Dr About Dr drew and his predilection for what he does. The News Girls Chair on the Adam Corolla show from Emma February two thousand Nineteen Adam cruel show twenty five. Oh one eight jeep grand. Brian Bishop Dr Drew. The Blake Blake powder based drugs duty. Oh I just feel like look. There's booze and there's pot that's they were doing a wedding you want. The chicken went to stay like we're good. You don't need to go fondue but you can't give a kid Alcohol or weed. When they're they won't sit down in school you give them riddle in such a weird thing that history is not going to be now and you know? I don't like to talk about myself being right on this show but so many druids sat right where you're sitting Gina. Grad sniff the seat and then he sat down right right. Okay sure right where you're sitting sat down. I'm sorry I got that. He sat here and he he sits in this chair. But what else did he do sits in that chair but he also did what he sniffed while though he told he told me when I was telling me about like Oxycontin on on all kinds of stuff that he's done sniffing the seat he said to me but instead he sniffs the seat after I said here you know Oxycontin you take the pill form Norte. Yeah I'm sorry must be close probably crush okay. But is he's sniffing the seat before he sits down to a show with you. Figure is a federal audit only. Because he knows he's giving the seat that I sit in. Does he sit in this chair and then sniff the seat before he sits down. He's not going to sit on you if you're in the see I'm not worried about that not at all. I'm just wondering and then he said to me God Let's add lights. Nobody says I'm sorry to hear the story. Not The works here. Finished finished a distant lift his index finger and rub his right nipple and he and he said after I sat here left our still talking about. This isn't about you if it's about me okay. More about your seat maybe need one of them pellets telling you this he naturally 2019 talking about the great. Dr Drew who who had an incredible year on the Adam Corolla show even though he wasn't really they're talking about the checked out. Drew drops those four. The funniest things ever done and end this absence. Maybe something that he supposedly does is also quite a Larry as Dr drew the seat sniffer. That's right all right. Now we've been we've been doing this a few times We're going to play another clip of Matt. ACHY returning to play rotten or fresh which turns out to be what we call Ron meals game now. And this is the fourth time the game has ever been played. Steven Brody Stevens matchy wasn't Brian Bishop. This is the poorest matchy. alson Brian along with Adam. It's January twenty thirteen tons of requests for Moron to Moron Demands Game. So we're going to give it to you in this episode. So this is Adam Corolla show twelve forty one. I told you that you guys have made my brother very happy with the song. Because I'm used to get feedback when I do the show. I hear from a lot of listeners. And it's great to hear the feedback but my brother who doesn't do much media for rotten tomatoes because because it doesn't work for us he now when he calls people at work they can tell that it's him they pick up the phone and they're saying aw again the game would be like in rush if We thought Guest eighty-seven and it was eighty nine than you could add to to my towel. There you go all right. Let's play. This is the first of the year so we'll play the whole saw. Hell yeah with the first shame the in a town full sir. ooh took part they love. It makes me feel so. Welcome the plenty of people hate their songs. No I love of it mine. CB savage now all right so the theme at all right the theme today in honor of one of the Oscar. Nominees Matthew mcconaughey uh-huh Matthew mcconaughey movies right. So we'll start early in his career. One thousand nine hundred ninety three big cast lots of other stars went entre nous great things the movie dazed and confused a riding these damn days in confused stars before they were stars. Yeah yeah well starchy. We're no longer stars right worry. Cochrane is due for a comeback fun. Yeah liked it for for a while. It was mcconaghy's my favorite role for him. Because that dude who it's a great it's a great part of life or there is a part of life where all you have above. Somebody is two years. But that's Lord over epic that's A. That's a huge distance is cool. Yeah well or four when the guys in high school near two years out of high school like I'm sure at some point Richard Branson at sixteen and a half or seventeen had to kiss the the acid look up to a nineteen year old dude just because he had an El Camino. You know what I'm saying. Like had to head kiss his ass because he had a full-time Gig in just a a little money in his pocket. When I saw that I thought McConnell hey was so much older than they were? I thought he was like thirty five. Yeah I play him up to look older I I enjoy it but he was only supposed to be a few years high school moustache. I love that role. The movie The music's great and all that doesn't hold up the pacing doesn't hold up that wells is kind of Also the part where the one hundred and forty pound guys is. The Star of the football team coach wants them to sign a thing that says America Rabbit. Pink Floyd yes I will. I will just jump out to like as a critic I will say. Say Seventy seven you saw my seventy eight seventy five I think that drug thing turned off critics. This is a very good movie directed by Richard Linklater. WHO Director before sunset before sunset before sunrise? These are all shockingly kingly low ninety four whoa ninety four percent certified for M. in low ninety four Belsen. Yeah wasn't that good. I was GONNA say now. I do not think it's over right but it is one of the ones where the audience was lower than the critics which you don't oftentimes see all right Dr Peter after I never saw it in the never saw them theatre but since then answers I got it on. DVD of released two hundred times right. It'd be better interview. Did you know what's weird though. Getting high and watching movies were other people get high is like if ah I like porn but it was only dudes beating off like seek to ten on following you down that train. You know what I'm saying like I don't what beating off in my porn. I'd like to see chicks getting laid. That's why I didn't see it in a theater because I wanted to beat off right. I was I didn't mean exactly saying there's a lot of people like to see. Do they see exactly what they're doing. Okay anyway all right Alson. Enjoy your lead baby here. We go all right few years later more serious role based on the John Grisham novel a time to kill uh-huh one of the first times we see Matthew as a lawyer won't be the last time we see him as one boy. I don't remember seeing this. Remember anything about it. Fellow Oscar nominee. This here's Sandra Bullock Jackson. That's the one we're seeing action because Cooper's he's he's mcconaughey is defending Jackson against against In court Races southern town. Okay all right so we have to ride our score down. Otherwise it's it's no fair Joel Schumacher's first movie. After are Batman forever. Now now I gotTa beat on it. I didn't see the movie. I don't remember that much about it but it sounds like a good theme to like as a as a critic but I don't remember it being that good that it would have gone so Algo seventy-one my impression was critics. Were like he's the new. Paul Newman and they were freaking out. I'm going eighty five. Eighty five percent going fifty eight because sixty seven percent. ooh Boy this is high. Follow Away Behind Race Grace. You guess it was at him. I said seventy one well all right I have fallen Farquhar right next. Stop a starring role. He's leaving the movie. It's the second movie that year about people who are on TV twenty four hours a day this Ed. TV Sauna theatre enjoyed it on. Oh no wait a minute. I think I'm thinking of the thinking of the wrong won the Truman show the Jim Carey right right. This one is his brothers. Played played by. Woody Harrelson starring on Rob Reiner was rob. Reiner is in this. Ron Howard direct. Oh Yeah No no I D on this is the beginning of the movie dating Woody Harrelson Matthew mcconaughey files for all right How generous is the TV network? EXAC all right. This is a bad movie. Scores booed a little bit by Ron Howard's involvement because he's a critic's Darling fifty percent. I wrote down sixty. I wrote down sixty one. I wrote down sixty one two and then it crossed off and wrote sixty allison was closest sixty four percent. DNA exactly what happened last. Cross down my sixty one and went wrong direction. ooh Me now. That'd be pretty closed about now. All right here we go into the championship Brown. All right two more left. This one was a big movie in two thousand six directed by MC g based on a true who story a tragic story about a football team That wiped out. The plane crashed movie as we are Marshall. I got recruited play Football Marshall but after point out to everyone it was shortly after the plane crash or possibly during so they weren't the powerhouse of now or at least few two years ago all right hard to say Shit he thinks about this movie. I kind of saw bits and pieces. South three quarters of it on Cable I. I don't think anyone thought it was great but on the other hand it's hard to you know. Put Two thumbs down for movie about a bunch of dead guys and Kevin I ending and Black quarterback and all that Kinda the stuff I'm GonNa go shit seventy four. I said Eddie too. I remember this being a feel feel-good movie everyone liked and I eighty one forty nine percents. Why what that forty shocked shocked by that? I was totally fine. Like the guy was like a period piece and I love everyone dead of a plane crash. You audience gave it eighty feel good movie. Yeah wasn't I mean it wasn't rudy but it wasn't forty points away from Rudy. Was it no not at all. The critics said that they got to Schmaltzy mcdonagh. Ricky didn't like Charges to some that was that was kind of McKee not was was getting away from doing action and like Oh let's be dramatic and what is what is the top critics say Garin will all right. We'll keep going to the last one boy. How a strident bother this last one? Well you never know because you can go. Here's the thing you can definitely. There is a strategy where this was the last question. I would have said thirty right just on off by only so many points. It's not going to manage. Well let it ride on something something big big one direction or another Marshall of forty four was the top. Critics boy. Didn't like this movie movie all right so this last one Has Been Kinda he plays as an agent Who will go to the ends of the Earth to get his client anything? He needs The movie Tropic Thunder. Remember where. He's that's right that's right. Yeah great cast in this high I get. I don't see the rotation on cable that much with this movie. I liked it this and I would like to see this to one. Happy forced Dr Never shows up on cable either movies. I WANNA know why drive drive with so critically acclaimed probably ninety six percent around. I've never seen it on cable and I don't see tropic thunder either and I would like to see that lots of great eight Characters in that movie Tom Cruise is fun in that movie. Robert Downey junior scrape pretended to be just as good. I love be Dr Ninety Three by the way I'll go first Write my number down. I'm going to say eighty nine. This is one of my all time favorite comedies. I go eighty two and I went. Eighty eight eighty three. ooh exemption barely narrowly certified fresh with two hundred and twenty nine reviews. People went bananas over this Adam Brian. Allison I've been a second mm-hmm saying how are we gonNA give you the tell us oh now on that. One Alison was clone. uh-huh eight eighty nine. So I was off. You picked up one on me. Brian Eighty five thousand sixty eighty five at fifty seven s screen-grabbed and let's have contact lenses made out out of it. What what would I be seeing you at sixty five and Brian at eighty five? Don't worry about me Dan. I'm in a different class in racing. They have like showroom stock and then they have unlimited. I have gone on one I and the other on both on both you just have interesting. I interesting afterwards crazy. What kind of space coast gifted player has a bad game like that? That's a six interception game. Yeah well for. There's no need to have a conversation with perennial all star like yourself Bryan. You know what I'm saying. Well what I'm what I'm saying is when peyton manning throws one out there on a screen it gets picked off because the tight end because the outside backers broken off his rush and went and grabbed that wounded duck doc. no-one has to give an ear full on the sideline next time. Exactly what. He knows what he did wrong. All right first GYCO. Everyone's got the to do you list how. `Bout you add. Save hundreds of dollars on car insurance. You don't have to go anywhere. Scott GEICO DOT COM fifteen minutes could be saving fifteen percent or more on your Auto Insurance Sheri- you take that extra money put in your pocket. Save it for a rainy day at GEICO DOT COM GEICO DOT COM. Spent a couple of minutes. Find out just just how much you could be saving on your auto insurance at Geiko Dot Com and those are on tomatoes game back back in two thousand fourteen. I said twenty thirteen earlier. Excuse me but that was the fourth time we've ever played it. We're going to be closing out with rotten tomatoes game. It basically spread over December twenty Janis Thirteen through January two thousand fourteen. The main first few times they played the game and then after that all through two thousand fourteen th through present day caught on like wildfire are before we get started with another game. One remind everybody Adam cruel it will be in Milwaukee January Twenty Fourth Chicago January twenty fifth and in February. He'll be in Cleveland and Indianapolis for a stand up and admirals and prepares get your tickets now and also preordered book. I'm emotional support. Animal animal navigating are all woke. No joke culture and it's available on Amazon Barnes and Noble Adam Kroll Dot Com. It's yellow with Phil and atom on the cover. You can't miss it. It's a preorder now and get your copy being time all right this next one. This is another raw tomatoes game the fifth time we've ever played it about a week later. Adam Corolla show twelve forty-six thirty-six Joe. Casey Manatee Elson Brian. Bishop once again. It's just a game of Matt Allison Brighter. Now I matt. You've you've got some movies. I love the theme song but I I like the game is well. We knew both I'll laid out I matt from Rotten Edis here. He gives We'll pick a genre. You'll pick a celebrity or something. Something's in the news. We don't know what it is now. you give five six movies week. Guess the critic on rotten demand not top critic average critic score on rotten tomatoes. Whoever is closest or lowest? Like golf score is going to win win. The game will combine the scores. Here we go with the first Shane again. mm-hmm the only. Oh ooh take the banks baby honored and I love that Song too all right. Here's a guy. Okay all right. What is our genre genre today in honor of I Frankenstein updated take on a classic Universal Missile Monster? I'm doing universal monster update movies. Okay when I see this fucking commercials for like I Frankenstein. I'll I WANNA do is fucking throw my shoe at at the TV set. Like I have no interest in this kind of homoerotic Mumbo jumbo. It's all just one big mass. I what is that like. He should dark over. The city is falling under shadows. Fuck foul old. Are you assholes. I know where Comic Book Guy Coming in next song can yell at him to what what is going on comic book based on a Comic Book this when wasn't screened for critics. Oh right nobody highs. No so the story is Frankenstein. The Monster. WHO's taken on the name Adam Adam Frankenstein? Do you really care about well. I just see the commercial. I am my father son. Really 'cause I'm actually actually the son of my uncle who's neighbor. The fuck is son of their fucking dad hall. Yeah looks terrible. The users on our side aren't interested so I don't have a score for that. I'd love to see Aaron. Do better things but I picked universal monsters. You know the classics Wolfman Mummy Invisible Man. So we're going to have some movies. I up universal resurrected one of their classic monsters in two thousand. Ten Casting Benicio Zeal. Del Toro as Wolfman who wants tough. I don't even remember this. Anthony Hopkins is in it. Hugo weaving his in an I and we blunts the CO star directed by Joe Johnston who directed Captain America. And honey. I shrunk the kids all right. Pretty good cast asked remember hearing a ton of great things about it but Number is everyone written their number down. Yes all right. I wrote down forty six. I wrote down sixty to run the middle. I said fifty five this is for an Oscar. Wasn't Senate makeup especial for makeup. You're all way over thirty four percent right there you go. That's that's why I don't remember all right all right next up. Universal did find some box office success with adapted the nineteen thirty two. Boris Karloff Film. The mummy mummy in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine nine hundred ninety nine. Mommy starring Brendan Fraser as the hero. Arnold loss Lou plays the mummy. Rachel vise yeah I remember that Holly Shore Having Encino Man. I remember that had some success I did not see it at wells did very well to accelerate fish are eh or they're not all right. I'm coming back again just to show my range forty six. Oh I remember. It's actually being a decent movie. I said seventy dim it. I said fifty four I could be wrong. Fifty five percent all right. That's right the audience number on this is much higher at seventy five percents. This is one that I think the critics are a little harsher than they need to be. I like this. I mean it's fine. It's not great eight of these harsh on these kinds of movies. I mean when the mummy comes out in your critic whose worth his salt. You're just not gonNA in a lick. Its balls balls a lot of wrapping to do here. write-off nextstep Francis Ford Coppola. 's follow up to the Godfather Three Eh. BRAM STOKER'S DRACULA IN NINETEEN NINETY-TWO Gary Oldman plays the title character. This was the one that also has went on a writer. Ken Reeves Anthony Hopkins Things. Tom Waits Tom Waits. eatings bugs if you remember that one Cheese can't Oldman has yeah white hair. Yeah Yeah I Probably saw this thing the promise there was that Deniro movie where he played. The devil came amount about this same Pacino or Pacino movie. Yeah about the same time. Yeah the devils. Yeah whatever heart black harder angel harder or something that was one yeah all right so this is I'm going to say I have no idea. Sixty one. I said. Eighty two sixty seventy nine percent. Now I don't remember getting that well cared a lot more weight back. And he a lot of people think he redeemed himself. This movie did pretty well at the box office office. They made it for forty million. It opened like thirty may two hundred fifteen two hundred fifteen million dollars worldwide A lot of people again thought thought COUPLA did a much better job with that then godfather three And it inspired that same studio Columbia to take a chance on the next movie on our list. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. This is the one with this is the one that Kenneth Branagh directs and stars as Victor Frankenstein Deniro. Oh plays the monster first off. I didn't like these movies anyway. And then when they started telling us who wrote the book doc made me give even less of a shit or Mary. Shelley's bitch I never heard of one hundred. Yeah Tyler Either Peiris is your father's Frankenstein. Wait what year was this. This was nineteen ninety-four. This was two years after Dracula from the same studio. Hold on a second Gary Needs. It's some information first calculations you need the last I did sixty one on the last. Brian did sixty thousand at seventy five. Eighty to eighty eighty two and it was seven. seventy-nine sack there got it. Okay sorry where we might Mary. Shelley's Frankenstein now year. Nineteen Ninety Four. This was clearly leave. Sony Sony Columbia trying to capitalize off of their success. BRAND STOKER'S DRACULA ALL right. I think I can fuse last movies. I this woman should be sixty. That's I've got fifty seven. I eighty two again although I really want wanted wanted and want to change it but I'm not going to. You should have changed. Shed forty forty percents to the lead. Now who me pretty. Sure I don't know could be. It's it's it's pretty close all right so like I'm gambling in Vegas. I just crapped out all all right so the early nineties was a good time. If you wanted to see people take great liberties with these stories and completely screw up or not a big departure from the classic Isaac Story based on a novel by the same name Memoirs of an invisible man was seen as an attempt to turn a universal monster into kind of an action thriller. This is the one with Chevy Chase. He's almost no recollection of this even happening. Yeah directed by John. Carpenter was what year. We're talking ninety two. Wow I C- I sort of remember that this is the one where our Chevy Chase's this businessman and he's attending a party and something happens and ends up invisible and Sam Neill is the government agent is trying to turn him into a spy and he just wants to go back acting like a stock trader. Or Whatever Daryl Hannah's the girlfriend and this is not a comedy they didn't know what it was it's kind of comedy it's kind of an action thriller. It's no no modern modern problems with Chevy. That's for damn sure Chevy Chase may some really shitty movies and by the way that the one movie I'm I'm GonNa try to think. Flashes to comedy goonies of whatever generation which is there's always a group that stands by flach and they're between the ages ages of thirty one and forty three because you have to be the right age when a movie like that comes out if you're old too old or too young realize it's not that good a movie and not that funny. There's you can figure out that sweet spot. I think that window is higher than you thinking. Oh either way to talk to somebody. I met some some chick wants. What's your favorite comedy? She went dirty rotten scoundrels as your favorite comedy all time and then I did like a weird math and I went. Oh you saw when you're fourteen when when you're fourteen everything is fucking funny. Let's tackle the young twelve C Flach when you're thirty thirty seven for the first time you don't think it's that funny all right all right. This is okay ooh Now this is really really really separate the men from the boys shit. Okay Fuck. I don't remember the thing all right. I'm going nineteen. I had thirty-three across twenty-five have thirty seven and I WANNA go lower but you know what fuck it thirty seven should have gone lower. Fuck twenty three. Wow Oh wow fuck I. Twenty two written down twenty two written down and jump down house. And you gotta go with you but my instincts leading mystrey tight title all right. What do we got one more end of my second instinct stinks? Go with Brian Second Instinct. I think it's still better than your first in this case it was br. Do we have that eighty five gotta add it up. Thank you very tiebreaker. All right we'll see allison eighty eight. Paul Brian Seventy seven and Mr Mr Perfect Matinee Idol Adam the cash register Corolla fifty nine. Everybody very well done. Yes got out of the gate. I know we gotTa have that gate. Then you know listen I good. I don't want to comment take your. Hey You got your dad. I asked what year. That's where I'll explain what happened Ryan you've seen many times the NFL MHM. You broke away. Your fullback not used to touch Iraq that much. But I'll send you had to rock in your hand fucking sea parted and all sudden you saw daylight in your your tote net rock for the goal line and you're thirty five yards off but there's nobody around you and you know what you did and it looked up now we started looking looking yourself on. The jumbotron started physically looking up at yourself on the jumbotron here. Yeah look at me. I'm in the lead. You've got your head got about this. You show yourself on the jumbotron and it how you started feet feeling your steps and run on your heels and my feet feel funny. Yeah and my hands do and and outside linebacker that was converted and he played a Florida. Stay on the off season. He was a Free Safety Florida State and moon when he just fucking came up on you and we came up on. Yeah he punched a ball out. And you're looking again your business tech both of us. Otherwise Trek those two one. Click away for all right. Oh man you don't WanNa feel unsafe at home. Get some simply safe. Stop those porch pirates. Everyone simply safe to is in their dot com slash Adam. Now's around tomatoes game. How'd you guys do? We know. Oh you play along and we'd love it so please keep doing that and other rules change as we go along a little bit the minus five rule it hasn't been implemented yet. No this is right around when they're like debating. We play the short version of the theme Song Long Long version. Yeah a little discussion before every time that play so this is very much the early days of the game. Yeah either way just shows we love. Museum played a lot to most played game in the history podcasts. All right before we have one more cliff. Unit is run tomatoes game so make sure to tune in and get your brains ready memories great cinema but I gotTA remind everybody to check out the water cooler. podcast it's the podcast that I do with Dawson Nips from a flask. Even during that podcast Jalen Matt. Von Leers there Gary Smith and we hang Out into talk about what it's like working on the show and just a random things about our lives too so tune in a lot of fun. It's really casual and I think you'll enjoy it. The watercooler podcasts. All right clip and It's another rods. Mehta's game about a week later. Six time to play the game. The very the last time the plate in January of two thousand fourteen workaholics. With a guest. This is just the poor achy. Awesome rose and Brian Bishop. Adam cruel show twelve fifty one air January thirty first twenty fourteen match and we do a little absolutely the long all songs. Yes abso fucking lutely along with the first Shane. Glue Yeah a I I I us by the way University of Buffalo Tomorrow Eight. PM so come on down and see the podcast live everybody buddy also doing a little Signing over Lincoln Park at Binny's and that's a little Mongolia action and Amherst New York and our amherst is. Dr Drew is correct. ME ON LAS Vegas coming up as well. You can go to curl of drinks at come. Find out where we're going to be and where I'm going to be all right man. Let's play this game. I love it. He picks a theme. And then we decide what the critics thought and whoever has the lowest score meaning was closest to what the critics thought after the five movies is to winner with a combined score right all right so it's right before the Super Super Bowl so I'm picking football movies good. I've been really excited as it was really hard to cut it down to five so I picked five that I hope everybody we seen first up. We're going to go with based on the bestselling true story. Texas High School football team adapted by writer director. Peter Berg in two thousand and four Friday Night Lights Love me some Peterberg Movie Guy. Three Jordan plays the coach. It was really billy Bob Being Billy Bob and doing a great job like not the crazy. Billy Bob Emaciated Billy Bob. Just sort of Billy Billy Bob with his shit together just being a good old actor. Love me some Pete Berg Cannabis friend. Good a guy I liked this movie a lot. for for a for sports movie very authentic degree in this. This maybe come up later. Maybe it won't but this was the inverse of that to me. which is this was a very authentic movie that didn't get enough love and everyone always brings up a great any given Sunday and it's like easy? It was over the top was silly and this is a great movie. All right let's Let's write down our numbers and again. This is the average critic review on rotten tomatoes. Okay I will go first eighty-one percent percent. I said ninety one and I feel like I might be low and I said eighty five but then when Brian said it didn't get enough love I thought about going to eighty two which would have kept the trend friend of Ataman me being one point apart but no one with eighty five eighty five. You're very close Adams. Right on the nose eighty-one percent for the thing that thank thank. You didn't like this movie. I don't see I don't want to tell you guys how to play the game but please do you go. What was a very good movie? It it wasn't I wouldn't call it great. You just go. It was very solid but who could not like it like there are certain movies where you go understood not everyone's this cup of tea and maybe take movie like clockwork orange or something like that and go. Well that's GONNA divide a lot of people and there's some scorsese stuff and there's plenty of Steph. We can all John Waters movies. People are going to be deeply divided on those things. But you look at a movie like this and you go all right. It's so football movie sports movie. Now go watch this movie. Whose nineteen percent? I don't think so I'll tell you what part of it in this particular alert case is there are some negative reviews especially from international critics. Because we do bring in so that's one of the things to kind of keep in my home about soccer. Well well that's the thing so you know we're we're getting reviews. We get a lot of reviews from the UK and from Australia and they don't give a shit about football. So I the eighty one. It was eighty one eighty one percent. Jesus Christ fucking dominating all right all right moving to college ball the waterboy cemented. Adam Sandler is a box office drawn. One thousand nine hundred. I had his fucking douchebag executive explained to me that he was responsible for the two highest grossing grossing sports comedies. Of all time. And there's a party per minute you maybe I should respect this guy. And then he goes the waterboy and the longest yard the remake. And you go. Oh those who piles of Shit also football movie. Yeah I will say the Waterboy was the biggest movie that Adam Sandler had. At that point it was was the first time he opened to almost forty million dollars. It was twice what the wedding singer had done right and it's opening weekend which was his previous biggest hit. This one is tough huff because even though it's piece of shit some people like this and people laughed I I hardly know what to do on this. There's no way but it wasn't it wasn't you know GROWNUPS to in terms of the COM in terms of a couple of jokes in air that yeah the critics all right. Let's see we're right. We're right a number down. Wow I don't know all right. I wrote down forty four percent. I wrote down forty eight. Change it to fifty five fifty five GonNa give two answers each time. I wrote that forty-six. Wow reclose the score is thirty five percents damn him. Pleasure man back doc with my first instinct. I said forty four and I'm not talking to you. Well Gary doing the tabulating. It sounds like you're bragging doing what you're doing. I said eighty one. The first movie was There Gary WanNa know Thanks boss okay. All right getting a little more serious in college ball. We're going to go north to Notre Dame for the story of a guy whose dream is to play for the fighting Irish Yours nineteen ninety-three the movie is Rudy. Who now again? Who can not like this movie on the other hand when you find out that X. amount on a percent of people did not like it? You go what the fuck but we did get into this with the international community a little bit here. It's true uh-huh I'M GONNA write my number down all right everyone ready. Yeah eighty eighty five percent. I said ninety. I learned my lesson with the Friday night lights but this one had the factory worker thing and there was a lot more going on. Just football I said ninety one ninety one atom. You're on fire. The scores eighty four percents. And now again. I don't like to Brag Twenty Eh. Why this who are the sixteen percent of escaped convicts? I soon have working for you. Who weighed in on this movie and went? Now they're they're not see it. Yeah there's a wildly crowd-pleasing movie. There's this is one of the movies to make stews cry and let me say this to. You are not had this happen with with my own movie before but with anything where people I guarantee the sixteen percent are like well. I don't like Sports Moshe. Well Fuck you. I don't I don't like movies to take place in Elizabethan Times but it's unfair for me to go review them and just go I. I don't like suck as I say all the time. If you you don't like Sushi than don't review fucking Sushi bars. You can't go in and go to a good Sushi bar and go. Well it sucked. But I don't like Sushi. I feel like that. Sixteen percentage senator just people that don't like sports movies. Went Fuck it but you can't do that. You have to go for people who do like sports movies or any movies. That's why we cast a wide net. That's why there's thirty seven reviews so ultimately still recommend that eighty four percent. That's a high score. Okay no and a high enough all all right all right next up. The movie that one Sandra Bullock the Academy award the blindside. I forgot that that's going. Be One of those very forgettable movies in terms of her and her academy award when you stand back and look at her body of work. You're one hundred percent right because it seems team so commercial and sort of pedestrian globe for this she. She dyed her hair a fairly good movie. In my opinion the net the the the thing about that movie to movie just played it right down the middle all their everybody was exactly who they should bannon. There wasn't there. Were no complexities at all. There wasn't any moments where you kind of want the characters good but flawed or anything. It's just like she's angel he's he's a saint boom. They got this kid. Maybe that's the way things went down but at a certain point you just yeah you'll have to make a movie about it. In that case right Aright Clinton was on the show when I was doing the thing for the veterans All right blindside. I think critics right all right. Sarah liked it. I mean they'd like to like these kinds of movies but then there can be a backlash uh-huh and all that kind of stuff cheeses a little torn. I'M GONNA be pissed if things higher than Rudy and or Friday Night Lights. I'm going seventy nine percent but I'm guessing it is higher than Rudy. I eighty seven percent. Eighty nine sixty six percent not full. The critics never been so glad allowed to be so wrong. This is a fairly good movie. I think I think what you would say about it is. It's a movie of the week type hype movie in the sense that you know everything that's going to happen before it happens. It feels good. If somebody said this wasn't based on a true story you wouldn't even watch it. You just go get the fuck Outta here but the idea that it actually happened in the Michael or thinks is playing in the NFL. And you go okay. That's now now. It's interesting because it did. It did happen. But there's no zigzags all along the way. Everything is perfectly this nicely executed in a big pile certify it's the movie equivalent like the police procedural right like the law and order like you know how it's GonNa go right. It's an and that worked out very well for them actually. This movie was the first movie to cross two hundred million dollars with just one actress as like the name Star It opened opened. I was looking up earlier. It opens like thirty million in the second week did even better Because people went the audience went crazy over with this movie. Well now what we say about you know if it bleeds it leads and all that kind of stuff about the news and all the depravity and all the pain and anguish and everything like we do love a good feel good story. Almost you know more than anything as much as we push against against it as a society we really do love that where the diminutive little white woman helps the giant black man to overcome as obstacles and make his way. We love of that Shit We. We don't admit to it that often but we do love right all right all right number five last one UA right brought it up earlier. Oliver Stone's stones take on professional football any given Sunday now. I will say this about this movie. This is a movie I would not call a good movie movie but I would watch it all day long. There's a lot of good stuff going on in this movie in isolated. Bits and pieces like Lt. Yeah there's five or six really good scenes and two and a half hour movie right. There's cast alone. There's certain movies that are just incredibly watchable watchable or just an I think I give Oliver Stone. Credit for this in his weirdness and he's probably gone off the deep end by now but this is probably about the time he was sliding riding off but we could still grab. He was hanging onto a roof off the side of the crazy cliff. But just interesting interesting enough and enough and enough super interesting people populating this thing and shot in such a way. That was just interesting enough that you just sort of would would hang with it and I would be one of those things where it's like. I said it's a twinkie. It's not good pastry. It's a twinkie but it still satisfies in its own way and and I would probably look. Nebraska is going to be ten times higher on the tomato meter. I if you gave me a chance a year from now to watch one movie stem to Stern. I'd probably go with this over Nebraska. That's the sad thing about me. Aright what the Hell could this interesting. Incredibly flawed yeah some good stuff some deficit with stuff in the movie. Now I think you guys going to have to go with the haymaker here. Someone break that down for me. I need you physically. Go out to the bar get some fucking. Hey Okay No. I don't want to tell you how to do your job. But I'm in the lead to way I seeing trying Wayne Right. Okay so I have to go far in the other direction is what you're saying you have to be on. The nose has to be at the other end of this should not go with sixty three. No no what I'm telling you and or Brian is. This is the point where you WANNA go with. Eighty one percent or eleven percent. I don't think if you WANNA ride or whatever if you think it's thirty seven percent now's the time to go seventy percent or one percent. That's that's my take. It's not gonNA work but it's meals. Neither is a hail hail. Mary still work. That often. Neither do onsite kicks. But that's why they don't do onside kick so often often in the first half they do. These are sorry saying is you. You can get close but but I make it closed. That's going to bridge the gap between us. You see what I'm saying. I do I know how to do it. I don't know how what direction I understand. Why don't you choose what I should now? This is tough because I have no idea where this where this is where this is but I'm gonNA say under fifty percent who because I don't think it was good but I think for strategical standpoint join if I just went fifty percent than if it was seventy one I would win and if it was eighteen percent I would win or three three percent. Yeah all right. I'm going to say fifty percent. I say sixty nine. Well I was GONNA say sixty three but based on what Adams saying I she needed to go one or one hundred. Don't listen to me. I'm saying it's Hail Mary every time that's all I'm saying. Sixty three the score is exactly fifty. Damn at wow. Oh Wow only one hundred. I think. That's the lowest score that you had of us. That's gotta be that's two out of five. Were heads up right on eighty-one Fifty well played Sir. Brian You and I someone someone who knows everything about movies. Dick about movies or sports are tied in a minute. Second I own. I averaged less than five off per whatever you know Well you you know it. It goes to show that the first time you came in we start talking about superhero movies and I got creamed by Brian and then we start talking about football movies and and then I seen the football movie so I think that helped but we'll do these again because there are a lot of football movies I was thinking about pulling stuff like the program. Oh necessary roughness. I will watch the shit out of that can wait. I almost came in with There's a lot the tiebreaker for today. which which I'll save for another time was Bryan? Song makes me crime and I hear that music and could be fair. I only went fifty percent because it was right in the middle and I thought that was my my safe bat. Who turned out? It was a very safe bet. Yeah all right and I was around tomatoes maters game for the last time we play in January twenty fourteen. We do love playing. We played a weekly back then too so hope you enjoyed this slew of Ron Tomatoes clips. And that'll do it for Corolla classics today. ACTUALLY WE HAVE A. We'll have two more upsets. Leslie Adam Corolla Orsha returns on Monday. So we'll we'll hang out with you for the rest of the weekend and then you're getting all new episodes Chris yet the new cruiser. Let me keep doing the show. I now I will have to ask him. But I'm going to say no or the I don't know or woman I don't like this deal. I don't like speculation relation. All right. We'll see you tomorrow. We're hanging out with you or the rest of the weekend so tune in to Corolla the classics till then Managers Monitor that superfan Giovanni Hole and get it on.

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The Bible Says What!? Episode 84: Testimony Under Duress with Brian McLaren

The Bible Says What!?

1:08:37 hr | 7 months ago

The Bible Says What!? Episode 84: Testimony Under Duress with Brian McLaren

"From in the beginning to the musical apocalypse this is the bible. Says what i'm your host. Mike wiseman when i was a kid. I was obsessed with dinosaurs. This was way before the drastic park movies came out when i was in fourth grade. I remember imagining. I lived in a dinosaur world. Full the friendly helpful dinosaurs. Just like the ones on my favorite tv show dino riders but no matter how hard i tried these dino friends of mine would not manifest themselves or interact in the real world. This is exactly how i see. Galway he refuses to interact with the real world. In a way that would be convincing to the masses take. The movie poltergeist for example. The chairs and the kitchen carried children across the floor. A portal opened up in the kids closet and on the roof in the middle of the living room. A tree grabs a kid out of his bed. Actual ghosts come down the stairs. All of these things showed evidence of some other force present in the house. Until i see some sort of physical testable evidence. I'm going to have a very difficult time. Believing any of this magical man in the sky. Nonsense in the old testament. Y'all we interacted with his people. He gave them special blood magic rituals explaining how to get him to come down and feast off sacrificed animals off his bronze grill vikas nine. He walked with adam and eve in the garden and he had face to face conversations with moses exodus thirty three eleven and now nothing why has he chosen to be so reclusive. Why is he hiding. Why does he refuse to move a chair across the kitchen floor or a glass of water across the counter or levitated bed. Y'all refuses to reveal himself in any tangible physical way. I've said it a hundred times. If y'all way wants to have a personal relationship with me that bad he can come down and tell me himself why does he need christians to spread his message. Let's start the show. Anything in the bible that you yourself have an issue actually enjoyed arguing. God doesn't kill children cut with the passover reading a different bible worship him because of the things he had done. Why cannot judge him because of the things he's done. Obey me or i'll kill your kids. It doesn't seem that grew up life today. Special guest is the author of faith after doubt brian mclaren. Welcome to the show. Thanks great to be with you. Michael appreciate you coming on and sending me the book that's awesome. I always love getting books from the gas. Really fun the honest with you. Though man i was a little disappointed. There was no No autograph for you know. We'll have to try to remedy. That somehow awesome good. I like those special notes that they send me. Those are fun so does a little bit about your book. Well i was a pastor for twenty years and my life as a pastor. I had so many folks come to me over the years with their questions and doubts and things that just didn't make sense and Sometimes their questions really sort of the united my own questions and So i've always been interested about the intersection of pay out. Especially i grew up in a super conservative religious background. Where it wasn't real. You know ask asking questions and acknowledging that weren't really allowed so I left the past some years ago. And i i still speak primarily to pass pastors and i would say that hardly a week goes by where i don't hear from several people who tell me their pace falling apart or you're having serious doubts about this or that element of it and it's surprising how many clergy are also in that situation. So all that interesting together to say this is. This is something. I've been struggling with for a long time and Maybe something. I could help others with interesting. So do you think it's it's a good thing to doubt. Let's put it this way. It's a bad thing to just believe something because somebody else told you. You have two more threaten you with some punishment. If you didn't say that you believe honesty's important and stout important on a doubt in and of itself won't get us to where we need to go but faith without any doubt. is I think it's pretty dangerous. It among other things it sets us up to be exploited. It sets us up to the Ripped off by con artists because then con con artists. Were they they tell us to believe what they say and put son has been where Where we end up being manipulated manipulated by our ninety faith. Yeah scary stuff. A lot of cutler's out there and get you in you know you just go follow the group. Whatever the group does here drink this cool eight. It'll be great. do what what. What's a little scary is those kinds of Those kinds of connor artists exist in the world of religion and in the world of business and in the world of politics there hammer. unfortunately religious communities can easily become aggregate For people who want to believe and and then they become aggravates for people who can be manipulated. So that's why. I think it's important to help Christians and people of other religions well but for me as a christian especially how christians and especially i have a soft spot in my heart for pastors. Since i was one for so long to help passed a better job on helping people honest with their questions and doubts interesting. Kinda wanna go back to something. You said there for a minute. You said punishment if they don't say that they believe it. So do you. Do you find that if if if you don't believe something a punishment for not believing that is wrong or shouldn't be done a well. Maybe i maybe. I can explain it like this. I'm one of the things. I wanna the insights really that became clear from within. The book is how faith isn't just an individual. Aw an individual experience and doubt is not just an individual experience but because we belong to communities that are often bound together by agreements to certain creeds doctrinal statements or agrees that our social life is really wrapped up our doubts as well and And so what we end up experiencing a lot of its experience is that were part of a group and we just raise an honest sincere question and then people realize this is a question that our group is not allowed to ask and so The punishment might being new won't be allowed to be a small group leader anymore. Because we don't trust you anymore because you admitted that you have this question now. Probably a lot of other people that question through but they just hadn't admitted it or it could even go farther where people are at the face the possibility of excommunication and and there's not just the theological dimension that but that often means separation from family and friends. I in the beginning book. I tell the story the young man who came to see me he was a pastor. He he dared to question what most of us would consider an extremely esoteric doctrine of his little church and And he was kicked out and among the people who kick about were his parents and his gra- one grandparents so you can imagine how devastated. Yeah i mean there's stories all over if people not going with a certain. Religion being excommunicated. No family interaction. I mean just kick him to the curve and good luck it's terrible it's terrible But do you believe that. Punishing somebody for that. Non belief is a justin fair thing to do i what would you mean by punishing like well. Regardless of what the punishment it is any kind of punishment will go with excommunication to think that something is is Something like that would be fair. Just i mean even though they they're just not believe work doubting we can't even go to y'all way himself Let's go with that if you don't believe you know you're going to go to hal Kind of punishment we get with that non-believer that question. Yeah or doubting. Yeah that's right and and to me. This creates a whole system of fear where we're afraid to be honest with people. And then maybe even afraid to the honest with dodd and Some a little distinction. That has been helpful for me. Is to make a distinction between what we met my call. Good faith in what we might call back. Say good faith being. I sincerely honestly believe this. And i hold it you know in my heart but i think there's there's a danger of bad faith which is i say. I believe this because i'll get in trouble if i don't and what's so ironic about that. Is that that kind of bad. Faith in the name of Saying avoiding punishment it seems to me makes us into a hypocritical dishonest people. And that's why. I think there are really. I think are really problems with the idea that You get punished for being honest now for people who are deeply rooted in the bible. They might They might be aware. That unbelievable is a very serious thing in the bible but unbeliev differences in doubt or asking questions. True unbeliev is when. I say i don't care. What the evidence is i. Don't want to see it that way. And i won't and and there's an awful lot of that out there true true The bible does talk about being a lukewarm christian And i kind of associate that with a christian who's doubting the truth things who's doubting their faith or losing their faith and what i see is always a revelation three fifteen or he's gonna spit you out if you are lukewarm. He doesn't want you hot. He wants you. He wants you full. Y'all way full devotion And i i see the questioning. The doubting is something he doesn't like. Is there a particular that you can point to that stats. That says it's ok to doubt that. Always okay with down. Well first of all. I'd say i think it's really dangerous for me to prove a point by quoting one verse or for you but in the interests of since you ask well. A good example would be in psalm. One where david confesses his sent on. And he says what you desire. He says you don't just want sacrifices and burnt offerings really interesting. He says that because there are a lot of other verses in the bible that says god does want sacrificed goat offering a lot said he don't want sacrifice and burnt offerings what you desire is truth in the innermost being and what he realized in another psalm that's attributed to david Relating to the bat sheva incident in another psalm on thirty two He says i kept silent about my son and my strength burned away like fever need in summer. And and so he's saying You know. I knew that. I had done wrong but i i. I kept kept it secret. And so i think this idea of truth of the innermost being is is really a big deal and you take And what we end up with If we don't acknowledge that beliefs should be free and unforced because look you know you go to court and you may get testimony. That's a false testimony because you've been paid to not say that are you've been threatened with punishment that's called testimony under duress three of john honest and i can't imagine god wanting to make false. Confessions unaddressed does that. No no totally understand. I don't see it. Yeah i can see the saints. I if if you alway is up there and really asking for us to believe. I don't think that the best way for him to do it would be to threaten us with hell. If we don't believe. I think that is the under duress part. I think it's very clear that the bible says if you don't believe if you don't follow this if you don't have the faith if you don't have the The love for for y'all way. Or jesus you the you going to receive a punishment and that punishment is eternal damnation Whether whether no matter how you interpret There's a lot of different ways But what. I see it as a fiery pit. I was told as a kid skin that was gonna be burnt off every day and grown just so we can do it all over again for eternity. This is what i was told hell was this is the place for non believers and i see that one hundred percent. I love that you said the testimony under duress. That's that's exactly how i see it. Yeah yeah that's right and I was brought up in similar Background and i came to really question that interpretation and that understanding for a whole variety of reasons but But i think if we if we focus on the positive side of this. What what i think we'd say if god is a wise and good you know Being and then of course Thank god wouldn't want Returnable destiny to be dependent on are being dishonest and And what's interesting to me about that. In the bible if you take for example wanting to places where the apostle paul writes in most detail about About faith is in romans. Chapter in romans chapter four one of my favorite chapters in the bible. And what's interesting about. Abraham is that abram is held up as a hero faith yet abraham had almost no beliefs In other words his faith was was not so much a matter of a list of beliefs that he had to for example. It's certain that he didn't believe in hell. The idea of how never even emerges in the old testament interesting So yeah so. Whatever abraham Whatever haberman's faith was that was commended in the new testament. It wasn't just stating held the right list of reefs. It's that he was he the call to go out into the unknown and it was willing to go Because he trusted trusted the integrity of the voice. That was calling him. And there's something stop right there. Though abraham very interesting story The you can talk about the him being called. Do do his thing and leave. And start the whole whatever. But with the isaac story where abraham took the the orders from his god to go and get his son as a sacrifice to dot Now did at this point. Did y'all way no the thoughts of abraham y'all we know his his level of faith as level of belief. Yeah that is. One of the most problematic stories isn't it. It's children are often told the story. It is a chilling story. As i think. It's a highly problematic story. And the the explanations i was given as a child in growing up in a fundamentalist church. I look back on. And i just think that's Unconscionable if i were to if you're if you're interested i'd be happy to tell you how i understand. That might disagree. But i'll tell you how i do. I understand that it just to hear your interpretation of it I think what we see in the book of genesis is is the only way you could tell history and the old in those ancient times. He didn't have research and peer reviewed articles. And you know they didn't have ways of verifying things and so the way they told history through stories and And what we see in the very beginning of genesis. Look at the whole book as a whole. Is we see a fratricide. we see. Cain killing abel over a matter of sacrifice actually and so. I think the book of genesis is a book. That's really about violence and And then we see The story of the flood where two sides to kill everybody. I think has all kinds of interesting moral and ethical problems to not only all people that are all animals and everything else. So i don't i think the meaning of these stories is is Is a lot more sophisticated than just talking about facts. But i think what happens when we get to To the abraham story is i think that reflects the belief of ancient people listened. God doesn't want us killing people anymore. God doesn't want us killing people. In god's name anymore we we can kill animals instead and i think it reflects that advance in in ancient human growth and understanding and then we go even farther in the old testament and we come to like that song that says god doesn't really care about animal sacrifices either all got much integrity or become too now like where it says. God doesn't want sacrifices. God wants you to do justice. Love kindness and walk home gods. So that's why for me. It's it would be impossible to talk about that. Abraham story without seeing how fits in with these other stories pitchers. I love that. It's a great great. That's a great interpretation. I look But you went to malachi and in malachi it talks about the sacrifices and how They've never been good enough for him because they've been defective. Y'all can't accept anything with a defect on it. Which is why he sent down his son. Who is perfect on defective and used that blood to forgive everybody hebrews nine twenty without the shedding of blood. There is no forgiveness so yeah we needed this blood to forgive everybody and he couldn't use the goat or defective anyways. Regardless i want. I really want to go back to what you believe. Do you believe first off. Do believing a hell on well. I'm not really sure why the asking you got. Since we're we're going to be talking about faith and doubt well. Are you asking me. Because everyone is a person goes to hell. Yeah yeah. I do not believe that i up believing on but i think i think that we has so many harmful consequences and i think you and i think there's a way of reading the text that is that would make you say no that makes me say that's not what is going on. Yeah well the word fire journal fire and stuff that kind helps put that idea of hellfire in there but okay so i just want to get a sense of what you believe. Because i'm having a hard time pin you down here. So what is the bible to you. Well i'm interested Why you're watching. Those things are interest to you. Because i want to know what you believe in why you believe hundred percent. I'm interested in. But i'm interested in why i'm interested in why I'm just. I'm sincerely interested is it. Is it because you're afraid that if i don't believe certain things you shouldn't be talking to me no not at all. I just wanted to know what you believe in why you believe so. We can have that conversation You're you're told me. The old testament has some things into that that you have an issue with like the flood story. That abraham story. There's some issues there. So i i kind of don't want to pin down but like figure out what it is exactly you believe so we can continue and I can ask the right questions okay. Well I mean it's i feel a little bit like i'm being asked to take a test. All right it'll be it'll be looking but but no it's great because so many people feel that way and this is exactly why i wrote the spot book. 'cause i think when we put people in a situation where they're they're tested based on their beliefs I i just think it's extremely common. And i think it's creating real problems I think it better helps me understand where you're coming from. And if. I don't ask these questions if i don't find out what you believe i don't know where you're coming from. I don't i don't understand your point of view. And i i'd like to understand your point of view about all this. Yes so regard. I'll be happy to a question. About my point of view. I so i grew up in a fundamentalist home that believed that the bible must be interpreted literally like you would interpret as scientific textbooks or a phonebook something like that that it was primarily a repository of information here so and and i don't believe that's what the bible is what i do and some people when they're giving only choice. Either you accept the bible as that kind of You know the divine information In eric and erin information that sort of thing what they do is they said well. That's not true so they throw it away. I have thrown it away What what i have done is i say no. I think these are stories and the important thing about these stories. I have no way of knowing for sure if they happened or not. I can get evidence and so on but but but people told me stories from for a purpose. They told me stories seeking meaning. And so what i really want to do is focus on the meaning and i want to help other people going to focus on meaning to because you know you and i could disagree on whether you take the noah story literally or not but we still have a great conversation about its meaning and and And we can have a great conversation about for example. How does the meaning of that story. What would that tell us. God is like what do you do this when other holy books are just just the bible i do. I think anyone who takes any text seriously wants to interpreted correctly and part of interpreting it correctly. I won't even use word curriculum. Let me use. The word. Wisely triggered it wisely. We if you wanna trumpet something wisely you have to be able to think about. It talked and listened to diverse viewpoints. And and not make an assumption before you start thinking absolutely so so. Let's go to the flood story. How would you interpret that story. Well one of the really interesting things about the flood story is that we know. There is a Antecedent for that story in ancient literature you maybe heard of the epic of gogol's mass and in the epoch of gilgamesh It's really interesting to look at the way that the hebrew people took that gilgamesh story and changed it And so we go story The gods are all up in heaven or wherever they hang out and Is that people are staying up too late and making too much noise and keeping them awake and so they decided to kill a human beings when genesis story. it's not a bunch of Irascible temper gods didn't get a good night's rest still predict god. God really cares about violence in god is upset about the violence ironic. When i story do hold on before you go The violence part where do versed says anything about violence. It just says that everything they were thoughts or whatever. It was evil or wicked. I didn't see anything about violence. Did i missed that part. It's just let let me know as the bible study. Part of the show was my favorite part. So you know y- love it. What i read is that god regret making humans because they were doing things he didn't want them to do. And you know god's list of things he doesn't want people to do is rather long extensive in kind of ridiculous in my book so when he says that you were doing things you don't want me to i didn't want you to do and so i regret making human beings. I regret my decision to create. And now i'm going to wipe the slate clean by drowning every living creature. I mean even the innocent puppies and kittens and and you know all the nursing babies. And i just said yeah. It doesn't make much sense to be trite umbrella. You know yet So let's see God saw the humanity had become through on the earth at every idea in their minds about i was completely evil and my assumption is that that evil is that they're enslaving people and murderous happening all the writing. Don't slavery you'll he's okay with slavery he no problem with slavery even tells them in the new testament to obey your masters even the harsh ones. So i mean. I don't see a problem with slavery as far as always considered. He thinks his great. I mean he tells you to get your slaves from your neighbors. He says hey you can pass them down to your kids you know. I don't think yeah. I just don't see it was well. Listen i agree with you. And i think that's the fascinating thing about the book of genesis Because one of the things you see happen when people start building cities that's flavors starts happening. And i think that would be one of the things that that in the hebrew mind and you should understand just because when when people tell stories about gods or god. I don't think that means that's true that that actually happened. I think that's telling us from people's understanding as the storytellers. What they thought was going on. And i can see the only. They see a rebel or a destroyed city. Well how did that happen. Well i'll tell you how that happened. Bob says and then you got a whole story. What becomes really interesting is in the book of genesis when you think about I mentioned cain killing abel so we have religious violence at the very beginning then god and does violence got says. I'm gonna kill everybody who's violent. That doesn't work out so well doesn't work so then then got a different strategy. With abraham which is instead of telling people. I'm going to bless everybody. I'm going to bless you brass. You'll become a blessing but only if you believe and then we give no no. That actually doesn't say that christian did arrive. He's all about you. Know this is what happens. I'll send you blessings and whatnot. If you do what i tell you if you believe oh my goodness and then you know you are right and in the book of job comes along and says that everything. Deuteronomy is a bunch of crap so the bible is all of these kinds of arguments about what was supposed to do. And that's why. I think that is so important because of a person just stops one of these stories and says you have to believe the end of the leaving horrible things if god and about human beings about themselves. And that's why. I think we need the freedom to question and doubt and We need to create unto to look at things in a broader framework and and And bring the literary dimension it. Let me just add one thing about genesis we're talking about. We get to the ended genesis and a group of brothers just like we started with two brothers killing each other. Yeah the group of brothers are going to kill one brother and At the last minute they they decide. Well let's not kill. Let's sell them into slavery. Which i i think also again. I don't think it doesn't matter to me whether that story is true. I don't personally think. I need to believe any of the things. Genesis happened as described but what that seems so striking to me is. Yeah we we start with people who kill other enemies then we have people who enslave their enemies. But what comes what happens at the end of the book is the guy who got sold into slavery turns around and and has the chance to kill or enslave. The brothers were so terrible to on any decides to be nonviolence. Where then so that to me is this movement from violence and on violence and when we are free from interpreting things in a little way i think we can start to see some of these larger patterns of meaning that that I think are really there. But you can't see them when you're not allowed to question i'll i'll question questions. My favorite thing doubt at all So if you don't if you don't think that these these old testament correct me. If i'm wrong if you don't think that these old testament stories are describing. Y'all we accurately is that correct so far. Well i think their their stories about how people what people believe about god right. I think they tell us story. Because maybe they liked one part of it and they. They weren't theologians they weren't doing what people today so they would you know. These are collections of stories that were shared around the campfire. And in oral tradition these stories carry important Messages and reaffirmations about who we are and what kind of world we live in some of the stories and terrible like the lot story and and and certain things like that And then the comparison with the other one the one in judges with the the harlot Was terrible story. Oh my gosh. He butchers and oh died on the doorstep after being. Yeah that was horrible. For cheapness of life is just kind of something to me. That's interesting about that though. It's me one of the low points in the bible is the book of judges You get to the end of the book of judges and And then you you turn the page and you come to. The book of ruth obviously leads learn. You know these separate tax that were brought together but women are treated like dirt all through the book of judges and when he gets to the book of ruth and women are the hero of. Yeah exactly and then you get to the book of ruth and we are the heroes of the story and in fact me foreign women are are the ears of the story so interesting that these tensions are there right into text and when people are not forced to read the text in sort of meeting literalist that way then they can see some of these other layers of meeting and interactions in arguments between the stories It's definitely an interesting way to look at it But i wanna know is is is since you take the old testament that way. How or where do you get your information about who or what Or the character of y'all way himself. Yeah you know. I think from if you're asking me about that personally. I absolutely i look at all of that. And i see a developing story. And in that story jesus emerges and so i think jesus pretty seriously and he seems to me that sort of side with all of the violent messages and readings. We were talking. We've been talking about and Okay i just the part but go ahead. Yeah i mean I'm happy to talk to you about that. If you ask me how. I see. That's how i see that. And then i think the story continue right up to today and people like You know gandhi and martin luther king james or doesn't see and nelson mandela. You know and people today think embody that same message and continue to expand it and apply in our world today. So i i see these very same dawdles playing out in our between people who wanna use god to justify violence on On people who think that's That's not right. So i i agree Violence is not usually the answer. But jesus was not this. Nonviolent grew that that everyone seems to think he was. I mean even the bible explains it as according to the bible matthew ten thirty four jesus came to bring a sword. Do not suppose that. I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword and he talks about dividing families right afterwards so if a sword a sword suggestive vision and the problem is family van and either jesus is recommending. That thought shaquille their sons and mothers should kill their daughter-in-law's and vice versa or is using that language. Metaphorically anything listen. I'm not gonna fix all the problems. In fact my message is going to create real problems and thomas. something. I noticed in that passage which i i'm sad to say a lot of people used to just make jesus sound like jesus hockey to kill people. Which but yeah But just that one. What's interesting is it's the older generation versus the younger generation. Each of the examples he gives. And so i think he's saying listen Know like any any person with a message comes along. The older generation is not going to be ready for it and they're going to be ready to cut off and rejecting younger generation. And and so i. I think he's telling the truth. I don't think he'd spooky literally there. I don't think he's saying. I advocate using a sword. Kill each other. I don't think he's meaning that as well. This versus is saying that. I think what it's saying is that he's come to bring division. Don't think i come to bring peace. I'm here divide families. My my idea of what the world. My world view was going to divide from their worldview. So i'm gonna be separating families. I don't think that's a good thing. Why don't we just by. And then he besides he curses the fig tree he throws the money changers out in mark seven he. He scolds the pharisees for not zoning disobedient today breath he says to follow the law and we all know how horrible the lie is All the crazy things in there then mark sixteen he says to pick up snakes and drink deadly poison and these will be signs of people that you know are his followers. And i think that's a terrible idea. Jesus and then that's not even getting into the what happens. After jesus comes back to earth. When jesus comes back to earth you think he's going to be all by on love and everybody know second thesselonians tells us that he's gonna punish the non believers of is going to be blazing fire and then he says in man. I don't remember where it was right now. Matthew thirteen he him and his army of angels are gonna come back and throw disbelievers into hell Now regardless of what hell is it doesn't sound like a fun place. It's not a timeout. You know it's it's We can get into that. But i i just i see yes. I see the love your neighbor parts and and and how jesus tells us to help the poor and whatnot. Great that's awesome. I don't need jesus to tell me that though. These are just common sense things if we're going to help the needy guess what that's a good thing if we all help each other. It's a good thing. I don't need jesus to tell me that. I don't need him to throw that in among the I'm going to three hundred l. Afterwards or or i'm gonna bring division or Mainstone stoned disobedient children. Why aren't you follow the law. And then he changes. What was it A divorce into adultery. There's so many different things that he did that wasn't so great Or i say absolutely. You are interpreting the bible exactly like a fundamentalist. I agree with you in rejecting the fundamental approach. So we're gear then if not from the verses just like certain verses you get the character of and leave out the other verses and or just just redefine these verses as something else. let's just pick one. Let's pick the one where. Jesus is gonna come out before we do that. So let me just say you just said you. Don't need jesus or the bible to tell you what's good in our neighbors and so on i don't so i if i don't need that either i just say yeah. Of course i you know. I i think should love people and i think that's more in line with kind of the ultimate reality whatever it is me by god and so that helps me to interpret the biblical text I i don't i. I think You know. I don't think you can have both ways there but i think i understand where you're coming from michael and i really when people interpret the bible literally that way get leads to some horrible horrible things and that's a big reason why i wrote this book. Crime want to give people permission to not be stuck in in those boxes. the matthew thirteen. Can you reminded tasks. Are you talking about when he told series of parables without the seed and Houston field and that series a parables. Right i don't recall what happened before. But i do know the matthew thirteen forty one to forty two the son of man. He's talking about what's going to happen. After when he comes back the son of man will send out his age and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that has caused a sin and all who evil they will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Now i take this as he's gonna come back and throw everybody who causes sin an all who do evil. He's going to throw them into a fiery furnace where we weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's how i take it. I'm very curious how you take this one. So whenever i i i i don't blame you for taking it that way. 'cause actually exactly the way a lot of preachers through it right. They read a couple of verses and make they make a certain amount of dot it and they say this is what it means and it almost always is about fear scaring people and and putting them under exactly. The kind of we talked about before. So i don't blame him for doing up. I think one of our huge problems as you have these two thousand years of christian theology religious history and a tradition of interpretation that interpret things that way and then we go back and read them at assume that that's what was actually going on in the original seven for the rugged explained is what it is. Yeah so so what's happening in that. Larger context is that jesus is saying. I'm here star to me when he talks about kingdom of god. I'm talking about something after this life. I think he's saying about a world where we love each other into each other right. That's not rocket science very much. What your tongue commonsense. Let's love each other and help each other. Do the best we can without doing any harm commonsense. I wish science. And i both by the people take extremely. Don't know about accounts but But i think so. Jesus gives us season stories trying to set stay what he means. And i don't think any of those stories should have been taken literally I think those are all parables in parables are are sort of like science fiction or some sort of that works of short fiction whose goal is to shock your imagination and grab your attention. And they've just think. And so. I think let me give you an example. I could say today. Listen if we continue to burn fossil fuels and we continue to work from the earth and the earth can give and pumped out more pollutants and toxins in the earth and the earth can Can absorb on that The time is gonna come with the are going to rise and Droughts are going to convert and making a prophecy. Like on. god's gonna do this. I'm just saying look if this is how this is what it's going to go and i think which is the same to his people as if we keep going the way we are thinking that violence is going to solve their problems. We will be violent to each other and we will have a violent rebellion against the wall and when we have a violent rebellion against rao. They're gonna come in and crush and there'll be nothing left and interestingly few decades later that's just what happened Let me read. Read the verse real quick. It starts on thirty six then. He left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field. Thirty seven he answered the one who sowed. The good seat is the son of man and we can both agree. The son of man is jesus. Right that's what he's referring to himself. I mean that's another interesting turn. I think there's a lot of time. But i and the field is the world and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom so the people of the kingdom were we can both agree is is always people correct. His believers followers. Yeah okay so so the world you get the world these people that don't believe and then you've got the good seeds which is The people that do believe And the weeds are the people of the evil one and the enemy who sows them. The devil so i according to this verse. A person of the devil Because i don't believe in you know. I do things that y'all way doesn't like so i am a weed in always is in jesus is a weed i need to be pulled. The harvest is the end of the age. And the harvesters are the angels. It's pretty self explanatory. I mean we got the world. Jesus gonna come back with his angels and they're going to harvest and get rid of all the evil bad people. The son of man. Forty-one the son of man will send out his angels and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who evil forty two they will throw them they meeting jesus in these angels will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth than the righteous will shine like the sun and the kingdom of their father. Whoever has ears let them here. So i mean i'm not real sure how any other way we can take this as i'm a weed and i need to be plucked because i'm not perfect enough for you always feel you know. I don't see how we can take that any other way. If all you want to do is say you don't take it that way. I will stand and say. I don't take it that way either I if you're saying you don't believe that. I'll be glad to say i don't believe that. Either i think other things are going on in that series of parables. And i think it's understandable that you or anyone else would would take it that way because there are sent you either flip through the stations on radio and find some religious broadcasting station where they're preaching exactly that right now so i don't blame me for taking it that way but how. How do you get any other than that. Though i mean how do you. How do you find the hidden meaning because it's very explanatory on what it saying. I mean the field is the world. The good seats stands for the people the weeds of the people there that the evil one from the evil one at me. Well michael look. I'm a guest on your show. I don't want to argue with new and tell you. I think you're wrong about on on your guest here but But you made a whole lot of assumptions. For example if people are certain that you're one of these needs because you're imperfect because you're not perfect because you know it doesn't think anything about the in that sex which is really interesting because a whole lot of side says hell causes sin and i know that one of the sins is non-belief so therefore i insert that as to one of the sins So is the kingdom of what causes sin. It's me and all who do evil and evil not to believe it's evil actually to spread atheism. a non believe. it's it's evil to to even suggest worshipping the deity or not worshiping. My goodness it just so funny to hear you. I mean You you perfectly accept the rules of the game set up by the fundamentalists and i agree with you. There bad rules of the game. I mean this. Let me make a different case. Your existed Religious people are saying and doing some horrible things. Terrible terrible things There there trashing people are saying that that they they just horrible things right. And i would say at that moment. Thank god for atheists like you or if you don't want to say god. I'm thankful for i'm glad for thank you for being someone who's willing to challenge them and show the irrationality and unacceptability those beliefs To me i can say if you're teaching religious people to not live in fear to not justified violence and tonight justify hey and i would say in my from my perspective. We're doing god's whether you believe dot dot and you're calling that evil. But i actually don't think that's how evil okay. Well let's get down to the we're almost at a time here. I just want to get down to the nitty gritty of it. Why do you believe in in. Y'all way in jesus. Why do you believe these these these characters exist wolf first of all i i. I have a feeling that we say the word. Y'all ain't that you're you're in a whole lot of meaning into that that i probably don't well i mean that's the name he gives himself so i'm just going to go with it. There's a lot of names you know. Yeah and anybody knows much about the scriptures especially with there are competing visions of god is like and in fact. You're probably familiar. What's called the documentary hypothesis. Which is that. There's one stream of biblical literature. That calls god away and another streaming calls got l. Gene and another is true that is with sacrifice and recently You know matters so. I think in texted self there are these kinds of arguments and and And i think this is where were the christian. Religion has done a real disservice to christmas after the world by creating these sort of one dimensional Liberalistic readings of these very sophisticated and rich texts. Right So but if you're if you're asking me why i believe so. I don't say that. I believe in that version of god your defining or defining too but it was why i believe. There's something there i suppose what i could say was not why. There's something there while y'all way and jesus specifically sorry i we can get into the whole why there is might be something but i wanna know these guys specifically well. I mean a very simple answers. I was brought up in the united states and in india products india. I repeat having a talk about this new and Boston and And so on so You know i mean one sense. It's not if you're saying. I grow fundamentalist and obviously and you know Doubted and and less fundamentalism But why i still even wanna talk about god. And jesus well partly. Because i i was giving i i took the freedom to not have to accept everything was being told to some degree because when you use the word commonsense before there was something just manifestly obvious to me that the best people i've ever met with people who by law and not by judgment and hostility and arrogance and greed and and so on and racism and all the rest and And those people were guided by love and it just became the seems sort of common sense to me that i would much rather live in a world where people are guided by love and respect and desire to reconcile and And so on. And so if i see that there is something that that's something there. If i think that those things are actually the the way things should be. Then i think there's some force guidance or or evolutionary direction in the universe. That takes us there. When i sing god i. I'm i'm happy to start at that point. I don't wanna start with a little stick fundamentalists stick way of reading. The bible does that. Does that make sense kind of agree with you. Know i appreciate that. But i still don't understand why you always specifically why you believe this deity cysts. Well i understand. You grew up in a christian home in america and all that. But why do you believe that these these these characters are real. Well i think they're characters and a bunch of stories but i think You know. I don't believe that zeus or hermes are real but i do believe the greeks told those stories. They were using them as as the best way they could to describe other things that were that that they had no other language to talk about right and and so so. So it It feels so. I think they're talking about something that's worth talking about. But i do think. I think you're concretizing like you're taking a concrete definition There that again you have every reason to take because of the way a thousand and one preachers do it right okay. But i think you're avoiding the question. It sounds like you're just gotta go around here but why are you specifically believe that y'all way exists do. Do you communicate with him. Do you see him. Have you seen him as you experienced him. What is your reason on. But it's not going to try. Avoid your question if your question is based on assumptions that i i'm not sure i share and that assumption is that when you say the word y'all way and you import into it all you know all it's not import anything. Let's just import as this. God that is that is talked about in the bible. You believe that god exists. Now let's go into the whole child killing and all the the vengeful and all that we're not going into that. I just want to know why you believe this particular. God is a real a being a real being really up there that he's there. He's whatever he's doing. Even that. I think i think you're bringing so many assumptions into the term that. I'm not sure. I can answer the questions without misrepresenting myself misleading. You like even. How did he do do. Do i believe that. God is up there. Well it depends on what you mean by up there. Even though that sumptious about god i think are sort of primitive bronze age kind of thinking up where right. Sorry i use the word up there. How let's let's let's go this way Why do you believe in the god that you believe in Well that would be a combination of experience and common sense or would experience so many. But i example i get those kinds of experiences in my book but on but i think the thing that almost all of us could relate to is some sense of better and worse some sense that there may be the turn my where it is like a moral summons a summons to grow summons to a summons to Keep learning and asking questions them seeking and yeah. Yeah so so again. How is that. y'all we. I have that. I don't attribute it to alway. I have this to grow and be a better person. I attributed to Mainly my humanism I would like to do better as a person. constantly. i think there's always room for me to grow. I always learn something new. But i don't attribute that to this specific deity. Why do you attribute that to your deity. I have a feeling you're boxing. Me into a corner. i. I'm going to be very honest like i feel talking to a lot like i feel when i talked to the kind of conservative christians. I grew up with that. They that there's an answer. They want me to give and they and they aren't. They aren't as much trying to understand where i'm coming from as they are trying to decide whether i pass fail the known just trying to get of the belief man. I'm just trying to figure out why you believe it to me. None of this makes a whole lot of sense into you. You've you've seem to have figured out. You've got your your belief you you you believe this guy exists and it and i don't really know why i want to know why I this guy. There's there's the problem This guy exists see. All of those assumptions are coming to that term. I think are worth doubting So if you maybe. If i were to ask you do you believe that life has meaning. Do you believe that life has valued you bring that has meaning and value that we give it. We give it meaning we give value. I don't think that there's an invisible person that does that. Yeah now you. I let me ask you this could. Could you imagine that that part of us that gives life meaning and purpose might had something to do with what we call god. Now you might say it has nothing more. There's nothing more to it than where's he needed to know that. Why do i need him for that. Well i'll tell you reason historically because through most of human history You know point zero zero one percent of the pupil you know ninety percent of the wealth. We're moving in that direction again but The the elites would control all the buses and their life had no meaning they were just there to be functionaries for the super powerful who call themselves. Who in some way you know. They sort of took to themselves god-like rights and and privileges and can see that. You're if you were a if you were a slave in egypt and Thorough is using you to make a a tournament and that was was there in sludge part to be a worthy mausoleum. So that when he died he would be taken. You know to his version of heaven and that really like meant nothing just to get my life there and if that that slaves of actually i think the same rush the kids your life meaning gives my life meeting at that point were were having a really interesting conversation about where meaning comes from. And it's not just obvious to everybody whole lot of people are saying the only human lives are the ones at the top of the pyramid. Pardon the time. So so. I i think when we are talking dog where meaning even if we want to talk about it within ourselves. Rear these biological units that have evolved on this planet through You know the process of evolution over billions of years and here. We are asking having a conversation about truth and meaning and all the rest and maybe whatever we mean by. God is actually part of our conversation with you. Say you believe in galway and by when you're defining it as a masculine bronze age. No dick control control. God i think i'm talking about something different. Yeah well we can leave god out of the entire equation We don't need him in there running. Just talk about jesus You know okay. Why do you believe. Jesus was deeply. Jesus was the son of god again. I i a god do you believe was eighty god. It depends on what we mean by those terms so for example a lot of people when they say that some god they think. Oh this means that god sent divine sperm into the womb of mary. Take mary conceive. And all that i don't have any of that Not exactly and only one of the four stories of the gospel says that which already tells you that there were ways of talking about jesus from getting what absolutely absolutely so again. What do at that point. So at that point i don't want to i don't want to Say believe it. Take it literally. Or deny i wanna say why. Would anybody tell a story like that. What we need is line for me this and we can never know for sure fascinating but in a sense because it's a literary text we're invited to Do some conversations about it and if one of the things we talked about as well because arrogant men were running the world. And maybe the messages that if anything's going to happen in this world it's going to have to bypass arrogant man and start working with poor women and that I think that the current generation people in charge had totally blown it. And don't understand what's going out at all So i and then if someone will come up in that circumstance and start preaching a message of forgiveness and love reconciliation and and Ended attorneys for himself. The most was not son of god but son of man which is a really interesting term all kinds of rich literally meaning but And again. I'm where that we could question. All kinds of things about the accuracy of the gospel techs and again. I think they're pointing toward something argue about whether this this was the lord of the rings warming. It's all pointing up every kind of story points to typically immoral or less you know that's just the way things are i don't take them as real though i don't take them as literal or that. These people exist. Like i don't think there's habits you know. I don't think there's magical people. Wall wall to bible describes magical. Jesus magical. I mean you can do all kinds of things but but regardless rather time and yeah i appreciate appreciate all your answers and your your your your your time coming on and and the book appreciate that but but we we're at time and thank you keep up the good lifted. That's all the podcast. There is for you today. Thanks for listening if you like what you heard and you wanna help keep the recording light on simply go to pay three. On dot com forward slash b. S w the podcast and scientific supporter of the show your episodic types of adult were more. We'll give you access to the patriot. Feed unaired conversations early access to each episode and much more for the latest events. Bmw swag and a peek behind the scenes head over to the shows ever evolving web page at the bible says what dot com thanks to the cosmic powers of the internet. It is now possible to buy me a beer or coffee online. Simply go to buy me a coffee. Dot com forward slash. Bmw podcast and click the appropriate buttons. 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abraham Mike wiseman abraham y malachi matthew thirteen abel brian mclaren Abraham ruth dino Galway haberman david jesus cutler martin luther king james connor dodd moses
#106  The Birth and Sacrifice of Isaac

Knowing Faith

47:50 min | 4 months ago

#106 The Birth and Sacrifice of Isaac

"Today's churches need the whole counsel of god though often neglected in the pulpit the old testament richly displays the glory god in christ for those who are trained to preach it faithfully that's why southern seminary is introducing a new doctor of ministry degree. The demon an old testament exposition equips passers to soundly preach and teach old testament passages with a special emphasis on faithful application to the modern day. Local church students receive training in a modular format allowing you to complete your degree without relocating to love southern. Seminary's new demon old testament. Exposition combines the academic rigor you expect the scheduling flexibility. You need and the scholarly instruction you desire from southern's distinguished faculty for more information or to apply go to s. dot edu slash o. T. say forty dollars by using the application waiver code knowing fate type it in as one word so get started today at sp dot edu slash. Oh teen you're listening to knowing faith a podcast of training the church burnings joined by my co host. Jin wilkin and jt english. What's up y'all hey. How would you ever breakfast this morning. Jt smooth macy makes these awesome smoothies. Every morning i love him. Oh wow okay smoothie time smoothie time jen what about you. Not a breakfast girl okay. All right fair enough you file breakfast taco with a hot sauce. That was too hot to eat breakfast. Did you make it no. I bought it. Yeah i do make breakfast but not as good as this one this one was good good breakfast taco like My favorite breakfast tacos are bacon. Breakfast tacos get breakfast tacos in colorado. Oh yeah tacos are a big thing here. All right cool man. That's good to know when we come up there. We expect that you're going to buy some breakfast dhaka's then really good got a really good relationship with our facilities guy here that takes care of a lot of our facilities that our church in every tuesday he brings me. He lives down in denver In largely hispanic community and he brings me the best breakfast tacos or burritos. Oh man they're so good now. How far is denver. Proper from where. You're at. Because i thought the fifteen minutes twenty minutes. Oh really that close. Yeah we're about as close to denver as you are to dallas. Oh wow okay. I don't think. I realized that. I thought it was more of like a flower mound. Dallas kind of situation kyle. What are we gonna talk about today. A lot perfect perfect perfect. Let's get to like. I like how you did that. It was a subtle and professional witty and an end to the banter on one. Absolutely okay. so we've been journeying along. You guys have been following along with us. we've been following along the story of abraham right now in genesis. Twelve thousand fifty this season. If you've missed some of the earlier episodes don't feel the need to pause. They go listen to those before you come back but i will say there are parts of the story that we tell today and your life who are those characters places. What's that backstory will. You should check out some of the episodes. We've done this season. And if you wanna to go even further back in season five we were doing genesis. One through eleven. So we'd love to go back and check those out. But today we're going to be looking specifically at the birth and sacrifice of isaac am now to do this gin. We're about to have to do something that you do. Not like when. I do not like it. I wanna confess. I'm skipping over a part of this story and we can. Can we hit it real fast. Okay great so genesis. Twenty is the story of abraham and and it feels a lot like a carbon copy of the story that we had with abraham and pharaoh in egypt. When abraham comes in is like. Sarah is way too good. Look at. They're gonna kill me and yank her and he essentially says pretend that you're my sister and that ends up incurring judgment upon Egypt and that earlier story and in this story with Malek he does the same. He does the same thing over again. Yeah so basically all were saying first of all that term been malek just means it's it was the title for a foreign ruler like a like phero is the title of any ruler. So it's not a guy no it's the title and that's why you're going to see a democrat. Come back later and you're like that dude must be so old by now but it's a different. It's different ruler. Yeah i did not know that. I thought i honestly just thought. Oh that must have been a very common name. Yeah yeah and so really quickly because we do have a lot to cover. We wanted to get to chapter twenty one. But i think a lot of times people are like. Why is this story here. and really what we're seeing is You know once again. gets sorted out in a very similar manner and we see the non The non believer the the the the pagan for all intents and purposes acting more righteously than the god fear as we've seen throughout the narrative. But you get this this almost exactly the same story. Why because it's reiterating for us That god perseveres in his faithfulness to his covenant. No matter what the thing that makes this particular retelling where abraham goes to the same pattern again. What's so gross about it Is that based on the timing of when god said that The baby would be born in all likelihood she's pregnant when this happens so It's not not great okay. So yeah but but they make it through this encounter and in genesis twenty one we read the lord visited sarah syed said and when was this did he said just as a reminder. Jt win at the lord said he was going to visit sarah a year ago right. You're ago. Yeah we've talked about in the last episode here. He is fulfilling his promise. And the lord did to sarah as he had promised and sarah conceived and bore abraham a son and his old age at the time of which god had spoken to him. I just wanna policier this. This gives me real like mary vibes. Is that sarah auto. Mary story because judas twenty one one through to really feels that way. Doesn't it tell me how you're seeing that connection. Well so like this idea. The lord has visited sarah. He has spoken to her. And this idea that. Like whether i know that we don't have a miraculous we have a miracle conception here although it's not by virtue of the power of the holy spirit right. So he's provided child but we don't have reason to think that he's provided that child apart from abraham and sarah's life together right right okay but it's miraculous in the sense that she is completely infertile by all measures and so yeah. So i guess i guess i just feel and maybe this is just larger sarah's story and i feel it really pronounced by the time that we get here which is like serious story seems very reflective. It's like but the the obstacle that's being overcome calmed for. Sarah is different than the obstacle. That's being overcome for mary. The obstacles being overcome for. Mary is that she's a virgin and that doesn't change in the conception of christ the son and the obstacle. That's being overcome for. Sarah is that she's bear. And i think also there's a real contrast made between sarah's response to the word of the lord and mary's response to the where the lord so to answer your question yes absolutely we should look for parallels because we know that isaac is going to be a type of christ. The child is going to be presented to us as a type of christ the only son of the father and so when we look at this though what we see is sarah. Who's god does not here and does not see who does believe that many things are too hard for the lord. And then when mary shows up in the new testament we see that she believes that god does indeed here and see and that nothing is impossible with god in fact sheet. That's part of the the story there in the gospels. Right rush she's the she's Her faith corresponds to to sarah's unbeliev. And so abraham son who was born him. Sarah bore him isaac abraham circumcised son isaac when he was as old as god committed him abraham was one hundred years old when he said is it was born to him. And sarah said god has made laughter for me. Everyone who hears will laugh over me. And she said who would have said to abraham that. Sarah would nurse children yet. I have borne sign in his old age. And so this is kind of a really sweet moments in this story. I gotta be honest. This is one of those kind of tinder moments in a story that does not have a lot of tender sweet moments. I mean it's like sarah's laughing. She's celebrating abraham's laughing. He celebrating their consecrating this child to the lord but then the story kind of get spoiled a little bit. Doesn't it because of serious contempt for hagar like that's where it goes anything we say about isaac or about this particular here we sarah laughing and yeah go ahead and say gerstein. You've got but sarah saw the son of hagar the egyptian whom she had born to abraham laughing and again. We have kind of this theme here that we saw from our last episode last chapter. You see that that here in verse. Six god has made laughter for me. So there's this connection from laughter laughter laughter. That's his name in this laughing. That ishmael is doing is not a playful laughing. It's an all likelihood of a mocking laughing. He's mocking. He's mocking his his half-brother which is actually going to get him in his his mom expelled from abraham sarah and isaacs presence which is now going to lead to an exile got got to preserve them and meet them in the wilderness. Once again and so what you see. Here's god's gonna be kind even in the midst of ishmael mocking and laughing at isaac. So in verse ten says so she said to abraham cast out this slave woman with her son for the son of this slave woman shall not be the air with my son. Isaac and the thing was very displeasing to abraham on account of his son. I just when. I was reading that in preparation for this. I mean there's lots that you could. I think we should talk about theologically. But even just the the heart of a father for his son near you have neighbor him who who loves ishmail and has has an account for ishmail and just few chapters will. Maybe can't can't ishmael before you can ishmael be my error. And then he. He sees his son laughing at his other son is mocking him. And now sarah says get these people outta my sight. I just imagined heartbreak. That would have been for abraham but god but we see here that in verse thirteen it says and i will make a nation of the son of this slave woman also because he is your offspring which again i think is another Seed of seeing how. God is going to to make one new man out of these two sons. I do think we're seeing. God be compassionate in less than best case scenario. What right like we can acknowledge the the hume the humanity of abraham in the way that he feels about ishmail But ishmail as the product of of poor judgment You know he's the and and so These feelings would not be happening. Like there would not be a child if had obeyed the lord and now things are much more complicated than they otherwise would have had to have been and i only mention that because as the story of genesis and the and this line continues and we walk through isaac story and jacob story will see this continued theme of this would have been a lot easier if you had done it the way that god had intended and anytime the pattern is broken and you get a situation with multiple lines of offspring for more than one woman there is always strife that arises. So this is. This is hinting toward what we're going to see. When we get to the to the jacob slash joseph cycle of the of the section of the book and even though abraham probably does have a place in his heart for sarah or for exhibiting. For hagar and ishmael. What happens next. Even after he's heard from god is is tough to read it says in verse. Fourteen abraham rose early in the morning took a bread to bread in the skin of water gave to hagar putting it on her shoulder. Along with child. Sent her away. She departed and wandered in the wilderness bear sheba. It says when the water and the skin was gone she put the child under one of the bushes then she went on and sat down opposite him. A good way off about the distance of a bow shot for she said let me not look on the death of the child and s. She sat opposite of voice in wet. Now this is this is. This is a heartbreaking scene. She abraham has essentially sent her alone with this boy into the wilderness and hagar is pretty much resigned herself. That she's about to die right like i. I don't wanna witness the death of this shot. I'm gonna put him over there and i will go over here because we have no more water right and there's nothing for it. There's nothing for us. She's been here before. Though in genesis chapter sixteen She is forced to leave again. Because of sarah and similarly in verse seven of chapter sixteen the angel of the lord found her by a spring water in the wilderness. In here we're going to see is going to provide spring water for her. Which is just a beautiful picture of how god again. He's meeting people in the midst. I guess his people's using that term. Broadly here but he's meeting those who is showing mercy to Compassionately he's he's condescending to them so that they can enjoy his presence. Yeah that and he's Yeah he's being incredibly gracious and tinder. Well he's being faithful to the covenant that he may now he said he was going to. He was going to preserve the life of the child and now he will against all odds and there. I think there are a few hints here. And when we get to the story of moses and his mother placing him in a basket and putting him in the river. I picture her doing the same mental math. Because it's interesting that it's not moses mother but his sister who watches him be drawn out by the princess. It's as though as mother couldn't watch. And i think we see that same kind of tender scene playing out here. Yeah so the lord speaks to her because it says the god heard the voice of the boy it says the angel of god called to hagar from heaven and said to her what troubles you hagar fear. Not for goddess. Her the voice of the boy where he is up. Lift up the boy. Hold him fast. With your hand for i will make him into a great nation. Got opener is. She saw wealth water. She went and filled. The skin with water gave the boy drank. God was with the boy and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow he lived in the wilderness of paran and his mother took a wife for him from the land of egypt. And so this is kind of If i'm not mistaken this is the finish line of hagar mile journey in the book of genesis right I don't know that we come across hagar and ishmael again in the story. Do we know but we will see other similar characters as we move along for sure absolutely so it goes on to say there that at that time and this should i say fico fickle you. Say it however you want kyle. This is your safe place. I'm going to say that. Like and final the commander of his army. Said abraham god is with you and all that you now therefore swear. Swear to me here by god that you will not deal falsely with me or with my descendants or with my posterity but as i dealt kindly with you so you will deal with me and with the land where you have surgeon. And abraham said i swear so there's a treaty that's cut here. What's the significance of this treaty with this abi malek and what like what is this. How does this play itself out. Because there is some This is an important. Way of abraham establishing himself in this region right. Yeah he's establishing himself that even though he's an outsider. We're seeing in the way that this is transacted is that he's a person who is respected and that he's recognized as a man of god so i think that's one of the functions of this story is to is to show us that he is someone whose character was such that people regarded him as safe to do business with he was a desirable neighbor But it does another thing for us as well. It gives us a sense. That time is passing it. Says an abram so sojourned many days in the land of the philistines. And that's an important time marker for us because it sets us up for the next part of the story again. This is one of those narrative details that can be overlooked in terms of it's significant but would not have been overlooked by the original audience. Who was about to enter this land. Where are where these tribes were so like. They're looking back and keep this in mind. This is significant because they they're kind of walking into a land that they have never been to before but the there father. The father of their nation has into had reputation established wells had treaties naked claim to declaim. This is gr- it's further kind of solidifying in the mind of israel. This land belongs to you. I want to say this. Landis arslan badly i heard from the euphrates june wilkins sake. We're gonna have eventually we're gonna Go back it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen But this is further solidifying in the mind of. Moses is key audience here. Hey the land that we're going to you is going to be full of new people and new places right. Let me introduce some of those people in those places g right now. Because they're about to be our neighbors. And abraham They know that they may not know your name. But they know the name of abraham And i think that's important because it's easy for us to repass them like. Why do i care about some trees. That abraham had with malek around some tamarisk tree in bear sheba. And it's like well you probably. You may not care about this. But god has told israel these newly freed slaves that they actually are his chosen people and giving them this land including that little tamarisk tree a bear sheba and but around that tree isn't just abraham and an altar it's going to be the philistines as well. They're gonna have a lot of problems with that. After these things god tested abraham and said abraham and said to him abraham and he said here i am he said. Take your son your only son whom you love and go to the land of mariah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which i shall tell you now. We got a pause here. We're going to pause here for a couple of reasons one. I'm inclined to think that. This is the i see this as an inclusive the back end of an inclusive show or an envelope as the two most significant calls of god for abraham to go. He called him to go from the place that he had in her to the land that he was going to give them. And then this second one which is mirror kind of in twenty two is the second most significant call that abraham. Here's regard to go and that's not. That's not go to a land that i will give you. He's he's in that land at present. It's go and take your son to mariah that. These are two different tests of god one of which was the call in genesis twelve and the second of which is the The test of sacrificing is eq. And sometimes we call that feature. I don't know that this is technically an inclusive. But sometimes you can use that phrase that word to talk about two things that beginning in something and function to help kind of frame the narrative between and so i think that call in genesis. Twelve is kind of framed by this call in genesis twenty to go to do the next big test. I have a little note here. That i think is a sweet way to summarize it and don't give me credit for this because i'm sure i probably copied it from somewhere else but it says In in that opening scene abraham is called to let go of his past and in this scene. He's called to let go of his future. I think that's a nice way of thinking about. Isaac represents everything forward looking for him. It's right it's a little bit easier to see in the original language. Not that i've done a ton of work in it. But but i did look at this a little bit. That not only. Is that true. And i think that preaches well. But there's a sense. In which the that. The genesis twelve one through three in joe judge janice two one three function the same way where he's saying go go from your Go from the land that you have. And he's basically What's right word coming microscopically. Close to what he's going to ask him to do. Erin genesis chapter twenty two. It's also important to note that the land of mariah Second chronicles three. One tells us that. That's actually the place where the temple is going to be built. David david son. Solomon's temple is built so the very place where sacrifices are going to be made in the future at the temple of god the holy of holies is also the place where god is instructing abraham to go sacrifice his son. Now now we have to pause here. Both of those were really really good points And i want to pause here to do something we've had. We did our story of sodom. But i also want to do it here because it comes up. It comes up a lot in popular level problems with christianity. And it is. It can be a genuine question even for good faith. Operators are trying to read the bible. Why does god asking abraham to do. This doesn't this seem. Isn't this wrong. I mean like. Isn't god different from the gods of the nations like When we get to thinking through the ancient near eastern peoples will often say you always character was such that he valued the dignity of life right in the halls. It's like gods like malek gods other ancient near eastern tribes. There were there. They did not value life that way. There were child sacrifices. So is this. Y'all way essentially demonstrating that. He's not unlike the false gods of the world because he tells abraham go and sacrifice your son isaac the son that he had promised him so. Jt if i if i came to you and let's say i'm a good faith operator. Not a bad faith operator. I'm not some guy who's just trying to troll you. But i come to usa jt. I was reading this passage. You've told me that in the old testament y'all way was different from the false gods of the world. You've said that his character was different and that he he was different than that. But in this story he tells abraham to go and sacrifice his son. Isaac doesn't that seem like he's essentially falling prey to the same things that make these gods evil and wicked. How would you respond right. That's one of the things that makes us the trial. Because you're exactly right. God molik was the god that demand child sacrifice as a part of worship. And so here in this trial. That is coming abraham a trial to see. How are you going to be obedient to what command in. It's important to note. I don't wanna get to the end of the story too fast. In order to get their slowly he doesn't. God does not demand child sacrifice is going to be a god who provides a sacrifice and so it might look at times got his is operating like the gods of this world the false gods of this world Importantly he's not he's actually operating the exact opposite way of the god of molucca. Yeah i would just also add. I think people often read this as this. Is the test that that abraham goes through but the reality is this is just the most recent test that abraham is going through and that this test is actually a greater expression of the tests that he has been facing all along. And it's going to ask an answer. Is anything too hard for the lord in a in a deeper way And i think one of the this is one of those times where it's important for us to to look at Re frankly other passages in scripture to help with our understanding year and thankfully in hebrews we find out we get insight into exactly what's going on in in the head of abraham now. We don't have to look at that yet to you. Want to go further into the story before we go there. Yeah let's do that. So abraham packs up he packs up his stuff he brings them servants along with them. And of course he brings isaac and they start to make the journey and it says on the third day abraham lifted up his eyes and he saw the place from afar tells the servants. Hey you kind of stick it out of here Stay here with donkey. Guard the stuff. We're going to come again after. This abraham took the word of the the the what of the offering laid it on isaac assign. He took his hand the not the fire and the knife. They went both of them together. And isaac says his father. Father abraham father and he said here i am my son. He said behold the fire in the wood. But where's the lamb for a burnt. Offering abraham said god will provide for himself the lamb for burnt offering my son so they went both of them together. I think that's an important point to note that even right here. Abraham is trusting. That god is going to provide the sacrifice right. He says we'll go over there and worship and come again to you so it's like he he knows i'm going up this mountain and we're coming back. That's what's going to happen. But his belief is no matter. What transpires is it comes back from this alive. Yeah because of god's provision. Yeah and so. That's what that's what hebrews eleven nine Bears testimony to that. Abraham believed that god was able to raise him from the dead so it sounds like probably what abraham's most likely scenario was is. god is going to require. This may for reasons that i don't understand but god will raise him from the dead. You're right jen. Just to clarify somebody looks at its hebrews eleven nineteen. What'd i say. Nine nine nine is where it says by faith. You went to the promise. So it's still about abraham just a few down something else to note kyle. Just if we're we've talked about typology before in this. There's a lot of typology going on here. Ortiz bible project language hyper links. You see inverse for on the third day. There's third day language all over the old testament. This is god's people inherit the promised land on the third day Is extremely ill and sick and on the third day. He's kind of given this picture. Resurrection like healing Ruth same thing on the third day she is. She's healed and then also or esther jona three days and three nights and then of course you've got jesus and then here you have would being laid on his back for a sacrifice. Lot of cryptological logical When you get to too paul Or luke and acts. They're picking up on a lot of this when it says some some people get frustrated with paul and say on the third day jesus was raised according to the scriptures and they're like well where where in the scriptures because it doesn't say in the scriptures he's going to raise on the third day he's aware of all of these types of what god does on the third day and so when we get to jesus's resurrection on the third day we're supposed to or on the third day here. That should be a clue to you that god is connecting these stories and two meaningful ways only in today's society passes commonsense as seen in the dominant message in music. Tv shows books movies. Is it the purpose of life is to look inside and discover yourself and express yourself to the world but when you begin to peel back. The layers of some of our best loved slogans. Like be true to yourself. Follow your heart. You realize that this way of life doesn't work. It doesn't deliver what it promises. Trevon waxes new rethink yourself. The power of looking up before looking in china's light on the insufficiency. Today's mantras which are based inexpressive individuals and brings the ancient wisdom of the bible to bear on this way of life. Trevon says i believe people need to see just how cold or cultural. Jesus his counterintuitive take on the meaning and purpose of life and it is more powerful than filling then all the other ways of life on offer. Are it's available. Books are sold gospel. Focus who last season was on our podcast. Further life journal christian planner and journal has exciting news that their iphone ipad and apple watch at has launched used a life journal app for thankfulness journaling. Prayer sermon notes. Bible study daily habits may be taking notes on your favorite podcast gosh. I hope that we'd be doing faith. In this context you can text knowing faith critical bath. That's bananas or here for the banner. Two five one two six seven five one six two one for special access to the gospel focused content and free life journal training resources. That's five one two six seven five one six two you want. You can also go to the apple app store. Search life journal. Download the app and start your free seven-day trial today don't worry android brothers and sisters. We love you text android two five one two six seven. Five one six to one to join our android. Wait list for our app launch. Later this year when they came to the place that they'd been journeying to which gotta told them abraham built the alter their laid the would in order bound to sign Bound isaac his son and laid him on the altar on top of the would that abraham reached out his hand took the knife to slaughter assigned the angel of the lord called in from evidence. That abraham abraham and he said here i am he said do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him for now for now. I know that you fear god. Seeing you have not withheld your son your only son from me. And abraham lifted up his eyes and looked and behold behind it was a ram in a thicket by his horns and abraham went and took the ram offered up as a burn offering instead of son. So abraham call the name of that place the lord will provide as it is said to this day on the mount of the lord it shall be provided so yes god does provide he just like what abraham said god will provide for himself lamb for burnt offering my side. That's exactly what abraham does and right or what god does in right and the twelfth our right like says as he reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter him. That's when the angel of the lord stops them calls out to right. Abraham abraham and we see this phrase repeated like a few times here. I am like when. I was noticing this when i was reading it yesterday. Genesis twenty two god. Tested abraham abraham and. He said here. I am and then in Earlier in this passage. We hear. And i said to his father abraham father abraham my father and he said here i am my son and then here with the angel of the lord but the angel or call to him from heaven and said abraham abraham and he said here i am. I just thought that was an interesting little feature. I couldn't like derive any sort of conclusion from that. But you do hear that phrase here. I am three different times god. With abraham isaac with abraham and then the angel of the lord and abraham and similar language and six. Yeah oh it's all it's actually all over. I mean since samuel. It's all over that pattern. The real point here is that the lord does provide any provides through this ram who's caught in the thick by historians and that's what's offered as a sacrifice as opposed to isaac. I promise i'm not trying to be a thorn in anybody's side. But i just wanna point something out. That is just my interpretation to gentiles but here it is the angel lord speaking to abraham In verse eleven the lord calls to abraham from heaven. And that's where. Then abraham says here. I am and if jump down. Diverse servers Universe twelve seeing that you have not withheld your son your only son from me. So the angel. The lord is very closely identified with god himself And then abraham lifted up his eyes looked behold there is a ram the substitutes. And then it's going to be provided for him. And then it says the lord will provide as it said on this day on the mount of the lord. It shall be provided. I just want to know for my interpretive purposes if this is a christoffel this is the second person of the trinity. Speaking abraham as the angel of the lord this is the mount where he becomes the provision for all of abraham's descendants. he is the one speaking to abraham. and isaac and he becomes very fulfillment of the one. Who says on the mound in this is the same mountain. Of course this is the mount where god will provide and then that makes so much i think so much more meaningful. Even the psalmist saying Look to the hills from where else's our help come from the mouth of the lord. It's not that. Isaac is sacrificed but obviously christ is the one who has the would laid on him and sacrifice for our sins. That's a beautiful thought. And i have to ask how you how you think that kyle and i would have read this. You don't think the angel the lord is the son but hold on. We definitely think that god provided the ram and at the ram that i'm just saying if if the angel the lord i think you agree with ninety percent of what i said there you don't think that the angel of the lord is the pre and karnik christ speaking saying i will be the substitute i think it might be but the angel of the lord in this story is not the substitute right. He's going to be usable. Lord okay okay. So you're saying that the in this instance if this is a christoph any that essentially the christoph there is is he's providing commentary regarding the ram and the and the provision for what is eventually going to do. Okay so he will eventually be fulfillment of this. So here's the ram now right. But one day. I will like essentially i'm going to fulfil what would have been done on this mouth to isaac in myself. That's exactly right. Because i am the seed i am. I mean that gets makes better sense of galatian chapter three makes sense of the gospel proclaims to abraham beforehand. That this isn't just a messenger of god. This is the messenger of god. Who will be the substitute okay. I see what you're saying. I i definitely would be in complete agreement. And i'm pretty sure jim nez to that. The ram in the thick it here is like is a picture of the substitution airy. Thomann of the only thing might be in addition to what you're saying. Is that the one who is speaking about the raymond pointing to the ram is the one who one day will be the lamb of god who takes away the world yet points intense throwing stuff dramatically spec to my microphone by accident but visually. It looked as though i was reacting to j t it looked like gyatso over this conversation i am pt conversation. Interpretive beauty there at jt you just said we were ninety eight percent in the same place. And i have to ask how much more time you want to devote the two percent difference. Because i think it's like we're talking about of the things that you've just expressed are things that i would feel free to associate with with this angel of the lord language without having to parse it down to the level that you're wanting to parse it down to unless the text wants us to take. Okay oh look at the time so here. We are uh and we've had the more beautiful than you want it to be gen. We've got the most important part of the story down here at the end and picking up at the end of the chapter. You gonna read the names for us. Kyle oh gosh chin. So god is. God is provided the soccer feis and after that the angel of the lord called the abraham a second time from heaven and said by myself. I have sworn declares the lord. Because you've done this have not withheld your son your only sign. I will surely bless you. I will surely multiply. Your offspring. is the stars of heaven or getting all of this that we heard in genesis. Twelve and fifteen in genesis. Seventeen has been repeated over and over again and the angel of the lord is repeating at once again. I'm going to bless you. Multiply your offspring as the sand. Is others see store. Your your show possessed the gate of his enemies. Your offspring show all the nations of the earth. Be blessed through them. Because you have me. So abraham returned to his young man they arose what together to bear sheba abraham lives at their sheba. Now after these things it was told to abraham and gosh behold milka also has borne born children to your brother named his first born buzzed. Neighbor names as in buzz buzz his firstborn buzz his brother and him. You'll like how name the first to us and buzz. And then you're like let's mix it up a little. A camel cumul kim. You'll the father of eram has said has a pill. Dash jide last bethel bethel father rebecca a milk board. Today are abraham's brother moreover his concubine his name was room aboard tabah gam and mak- those. So kyle why is this. The most important part. Y- this is she apparently now wondering if all of those names that you were rolling off did one of them roll off your tongue a little more easier than others hassett. No dude i twenty three a rebecca. Yeah yeah so. We're already getting a and you know here's what's up next on our episode of crazy stories in the book of genesis. We're getting a little preview. We just got a setup for what we're about to see that we're gonna with rebecca's going to be featured player as we move forward in this story about but But before we do that. We're going to have to walk through the death of the matriarch of israel which is sarah which will table for our next episode But is there any concluding thoughts. Here i mean. I really do feel like this is a passage I don't wanna be all weird about this passage. And i know that sometimes i can get a little bit weird With some of this stuff but you know the that. A danish philosopher soren character guard wrote a whole book On essentially the faith displayed. By abraham here in this story it was really an expose on the kind of the radical faith that abraham demonstrates here And when you look at this it does appear to to be both in the new testament and the history of the church that this is kind of the shining. Moment of abraham's faith and trust in god right that like he's willing to claude up the mountain In confident trust and belief that god is going to provide that. He's going to do this. And it's not as if abraham has been purged of all sin or persia all dow earl skepticism. But this is a really significant moment where you do see that. The patient work of god through abraham's trials tribulations his sin his own failures that god has been kind to continue to speak to abraham to direct abraham and this is a different abraham this abraham as we found him in genesis trump when god says go and he goes this is not the abraham who appears before phero in egypt or who appears before obama lack. Or yeah this is a guy who has been. He's he's been changed. She's been transformed a little bit. Is that right. Yeah i think so. But i have i have a genuine question and interpretive question that i'm hoping that you guys can answer. It has to do with the impossibility question Abraham clearly here in the policy is supposed to be a type of god the father. Are we supposed to read this part of the story so that we can learn something about how the father processes the death of the of of jesus. I'm going to say no. I'm going to say no and i'm not gonna say it because i don't think it because i feel like the conversation on impossibility as settled and you know because god is impassable. This couldn't be that reading. But i would say that. The way that abraham moves forward with the sacrifice of isaac in this account. It doesn't strike me as because the whole thing here seems to be. Abraham has belief and faith that seems to be the defining feature of how abraham is processing. What's happening whereas with god. The father there is no faith or belief that has to be exercised. Maybe i'm missing your question. But it seems like the key thing that moses wants us to see is that abraham was willing to do this even though it was costly because of his belief and faith that god would provide and it feels like for that reason. I'd be reluctant to impose or to to stretch the the type of abraham as god. The father figure here because seems like the defining feature of the narrative is his faith but god. The father doesn't have to exercise faith in the giving of the sun. But it's all that. Take your son your only son business and i. I'm really not trying to be a i. I'm really not wholly playing devil's advocate. I'm really. I'm asking because i've heard this passage taught more than once In which there's almost an attempt to humanize the experience of god the father in in the crucifixion of christ. Have you heard this. Do you think yeah. I don't know that. I love the idea of being type of god. The father here because it removes the inseparable operations of god. The father son and spirit. And i don't i don't love that the way i've been thinking about this passage recently is actually it's a One of my friends wrote an article about genesis. The genesis of resurrection hope. I think one of the reasons abraham is able to move kind of product. This mountain with confidence is because in chapter twenty one. He sees the seeds of resurrection in so far as god brings light out message. And so here he knows. And this is what Hebrews eleven nineteen is articulating is. He knows my son's already been raised from the dead and if the sun is going to be going to be killed he's going to be raised from the also. I'm coming down this mountain with my son who is who is isaac and so in some sense. His faith has already been made site in a way that that hadn't wasn't true of his life previously. He is the sun resurrected. And i think that's a picture. Frost disciples of jesus though. There's going to be a day when they when our faith will be sight. The author of hebrews tells us but we also have more sight than than many of the old testament patriarchs we've experienced the enrolling presence of the holy spirit. And we've been given this deposit. The seal of our future. Resurrection hope that should give us more confidence. In being obedient. To god's today if the gospels not just justification but sanctification we we are in a better place than they were. We do not have the lawn tablets. We have the law written on our hearts through the presence of the spirit. Obedience for us is something that we get helped along with the holy spirit. We have everything we need for life and godliness. Okay let me just. That's a beautiful thought. And i agree with it. Let me ask one. Follow up question. Would we then say that from that framework of the certainty of the outcome. Can we draw any lines to the operation of the father In what happens on the cross. And i'm asking that because i'm telling you i. I see these kinds of stories used to in an attempt to sort of almost like bring god down to our level so i just want to know. Is there a right way and a wrong way. Dj avoided altogether. What do you think. Gosh i may may. Maybe i want to take on this more because i truly. I've never really thought about it. I'm highly reluctant because it seems like the focus is so squarely on abraham's faith and the provision being with the ron being so clearly a type of christ but also this just may be that i have a bit of a. I m may have a reluctance on. Oh old testament. God the father analogues like. I don't know that. I've given that as much thought as going like okay. Where is god. The father in this account So so that really. It may not admit. Maybe it is there. And i'm just reluctant to see it because i have developed a muscle but it also seems like part of the uniqueness of christ the center or we just do a crystal logical at christie's reading of the old testament. Because it's nice and fun. We do a crystal logical and reading of the old testament because jesus reads the bible. Krista logically chris italic and teaches others to do the same and christ is the center of the unveiling of god in the bible And so it feels to me. Like i don't know that just because because i also don't feel like i'm looking for new metallurgical types in the old testament either. I'm looking for instances of the power and presence of the holy spirit displayed. But i'm not necessarily looking for like i wonder if that was an instance of a Numa to logical reading of this was that the holy spirit or was that a type of the holy spirit or type of the one who was to come in the holy spirit. So i don't know. I feel like i'm rambling here but i i would say generally. I'm reluctant on this okay. Well i'm not gonna say anything else about that. Because i when we get into actually the next part of the story. I have another proposition for you. Around this idea of types for you to either say you love or hate cool cool. hold you to it. I'll hold you to it. And that's i don't think so either interesting. Are you saying. I have a topic that i won't let go of and i just keep talking about. I'm just saying the topic. I keep talking about keeps coming up in the bible. God bless the listener. Yes listen Hey thank you for sticking with us if you want to join the conversation. You can find us on social media at knowing. Faith podcasts on facebook. instagram twitter. You can find us on patriot if you're interested in more behind the scenes content. We do a monthly newsletter And some other stuff. patrons Frontiers get early access to the episodes ad free And so if you're interested in that kind of thing going patriarch dot com slash knowing faith. Podcast we hope you enjoy the discussion today. Grace and peace. Perhaps you're wondering if pursuing advanced theological training is the next step in your service of christ. Southern faculty members will be available online friday april sixteenth. Help you explore the answer. Southern seminary's virtual previewed as a great time to learn more theological. Training is right for you and if so how you can make it work for your family. Southern seminary virtual preview day is live online friday april. Sixteen th at one. Pm eastern reserve your spot now at sp dot edu slash preview.

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Episode 241: At The Well - Sarah Waxman

Judaism Unbound

53:13 min | 10 months ago

Episode 241: At The Well - Sarah Waxman

"Support for this episode of Judaism unbound comes from the Osman, family. JCC In Palo Alto California whose vision is to be the architects of the Jewish future. The Schmidt Family JCC's is an incubator for new expressions of Jewish identity. It creates innovative learning celebrations, arts, programs that inspire personal connections to people and ideas from across the Jewish world learn more at www dot palo alto JCC dot org. This is Judaism unbound episode two, hundred, forty, one at the well. Welcome back everyone I'm Dan Lewis Brinson and LEX Roessberg as we continue the series looking it organizations created by women for women as we've explored in other cases, organizations created by and for people who have been excluded from some of the central operations of the Jewish establishment. So to speak over the course of Jewish history, of course, we need to take note of and expressed grief for the loss of one of the giants of. American. Jewish. Women with bitter Ginsburg who passed away about a week ago we record these episodes in advance. So our conversation today isn't about Justice Ginsburg. I'm sure that we will talk about her and her legacy with some of our guests in future series. But of course, justice GINSBURG represents a lot of what we talk about on this show in terms of a person who brings the values that they absorbed and she talked about having absorbed it from various. Experiences that she had in various Jewish context in which she grew up and she brought those things to bear on her work as a justice of the country not directly. Of course, that would be an appropriate. But what an incredible example of a person who's values and who's being was informed in the most positive ways by Jewish experiences and Jewish content in Jewish values and who has helped us infuse some of her work from the General Society back into Judaism and ultimately hopefully creating a virtuous cycle in which Judaism is made better and the world is made better because of this dialogue between Judaism and other pursuits, we grieve her loss. Another comment before we move onto the interview Yom Kippur is coming up in a few days if you are looking forward to attending zoom services with your synagogue, that is totally fine of course. But if you're not or if you're zoom's services at your synagogue are only in the morning and you're looking for something meaningful to do in the afternoon, we suggest that you check out the resources section on the Judaism unbound website and look for High Holidays unbound, which will give you a set. Of Resources, that you can do instead of or in addition to going to services including a three hour playlist of popular music that is designed to try to track some of the themes of the high holiday services. You can also head to the Jewish live website, www dot Jewish live dot org, and check out a whole host of things some of which are directly related to the High Holidays such a show called pray with transgressors, which explores the high holiday liturgy through a more secular Lens. Or The K. Dot Project, which is a collection of short talks about the binding of Isaac Story and maybe more directly related to Russia. But certainly, a valuable activity to do on, you'll keep were and a whole host of other programs that you might just find. You WanNa spend the day doing something Jewish and that would be something meaningfully. Jewish to do so we recommend any of those things or lots of other opportunities that are out there online and we look forward to hearing what? You did for Yom Kippur I should mention that many synagogues have the tradition which frankly I don't love that much of doing a Yom Kippur appeal or Coney dre appeal. There's a small way that we'd love to do that to not gonNA spend too much time on it, but we absolutely need your support in order to continue this work, and if the spirit moves you to make financial contributions at this time of the holidays, then we would humbly ask if you would be willing to make. A small or large donation at www dot judaism unbound dot com slash donate where you can choose to give any amount or even to give a recurring monthly donation which a lot of people are wanting to do these days in we we love that of course, because it helps us have a predictable revenue stream. So thank you so much for continuing to support Judaism unbound, and now let's move on to our conversation. For today. Today, we talked to the founder of an organization called at. The well, it's an organization devoted to connecting women around the world through transformative practices inspired by ancient Jewish wisdom. It's worked centers around the idea the ancient idea that the first day of the new Moon Roach Kodak. The first day of the Hebrew month is a particularly important time for women, and as we'll talk about in this conversation at the well has really dug into that idea has created what they call well, circles which are groups of women that come together each month for combination of. Spirituality conversation we're GONNA talk about all that today, and also in order to facilitate that or as just another offering they distribute something called the moon manual, which is a monthly collection of written materials all rooted in stories from ancient Jewish texts as they read on their website the moon manuals are filled with inspiring tales, creative activities, poems, meditations, recipes, and articles written by female leaders from around the world. Our guest today is the founder of the well Sarah Waxman Sarah Waxman has a background. In sociology and holistic medicine and in addition to that, she is a national champion athlete having led as the Goalkeeper Championship teams both in High School and college. In the sport of Lacrosse, she is a member of the greater Washington Jewish Sports Hall of Fame Sarah. Waxman is also an instructor of Yoga and mindfulness at the wells a really exciting organization these days, and we're so excited to have Sarah Waxman here on. Judaism. unbound. Says Sarah Waxman Welcome to Judaism unbounded. So great to have you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Can we get started by giving us a deep understanding of what at the well does what? It's all about in a in a kind of functional way like when I go there wh- what happens. When you go there, we hope that you feel really connected and like you found this gold mine that you thought that you sort of looking for and then Poof, we really exist I'm it's also a long time coming that there's an organization that's here to support and lift a ritual Rochon. Dash means new moon We can get into the gas tax part of it later in the podcast but. essentially, it's a women's holiday. It's time to come together and story tell learn and lift each other up and past the really important information about ourselves about our bodies and about Judaism together. And so when you come to after well, you will see that we're a network of around the world that are using transformative practices that are rooted in Jewish wisdom and the main thing that we do is to create recall well, circles while circles are version of goals. There's a lot of resources and coaching and training to teach you to create a small part of people who will need every month on the new moon and use the Hebrew calendar for personal reflection and togetherness. So can you paint that picture in even more granular detail like what happens How many people get together and I guess we should also be talking about pre. Cova during Kovin. Post. COVID. Let's start with pre covid. What what would it looked like to see a well circle happening how many people are there? What are they doing? What it looks like is that we're probably in someone's living room on that person has made it really special in warm because tonight's the night, they get to host the wealth in their house we take a rotating leadership model. So every month somebody else hosts in their home and somebody else facilitates always to people lifting up the group together. Obviously, this is the pre covid time. So we were in each other's homes at it felt safe. and. It was a really special way to be a host an to invite people into your space into your temple into make a beautiful. And you would probably see a lot of candles in the circle and people sitting close and very engaged with each other in Cova time if the exact same thing except where faces and squares on boxes on zoom rooms or were socially distanced in our backyard with masks and six feet apart. But the ritual remains the same and how we practice it remains the same in that we're using the theme of each Hebrew calendar months to have a meaningful discussion on into provide a basis for connection. It just depends on where that's actually happening in the living room in the zoom room in the part of the backyard. That's what's flexible during these uncertain times. Why. Is it so important to have this project both on the general like having an organization that's That loves an honors, Roche quotas and having an organization that loves an honors specifically women's spirituality around Roche, like why what made you create this project and why is it so important for to keep on rolling? First of all I called it a project when I started because it was a passion project of mine. I realized that there were only three books four books in English ever written about risk, Kodak and the last one was written before I was born. And so if I wanted to create a risk circle with my friends, which I desperately was trying to do, it felt like we had no resources to support us no organization disaccord us no books to pull from and I just kept thinking. We're the people of the book, but we have no books about this woman's holiday, and that's because women have always. Owned Oral Torah and this was always oral Torah tradition women never really wrote things down as part of our Jewish wisdom until recently, and so we're missing so much information accumulated wisdom that has disappeared because of moving around because of persecution, and because we've never specifically sought out the wisdom of women but there's an unbelievable amount of missing information that certainly was. Part of my inheritance as someone who's as his woman and Jewish named Sarah that I'm missing and so I felt into that sadness and pain void and I really felt into what it had the power of what happens when you bring women together with this analogy, the type of transformation that can happen and so I said. Man I can't believe there's nothing here, and for two years I was sort of angry about it and then one day I woke up. I was like Oh my gosh. If Queen Esther was the right woman at the right time to do something big not because she had to. But potentially because she was in the moment to do it and perhaps I can be like Queen Esther I'm the right person at the right time. I'm the one who's having sleepless nights. About this idea and I need to step up to something that perhaps was born for, and this is the moment and so it was just a newsletter. It started as a newsletter that I sent every week four each Rochon dash on themes of the next month, and it became what is known as our moon manuals on our website. It's free open source content that our activities and tones and discussion questions journal questions that really center around the month as a guide for. Personal growth now, we're five years later almost to the day and it has turned into an organization wouldn't say it's just a project anymore it's own five Oh, one C. Three organization. But it takes this project mentality because we want to pull people into the ritual to inspire them to create their own words in between each lines on the page. That, they breathe it into life and that we're building it together and I love that word because it feels like it's not finished it's in progress. Can you talk a little bit about Rotich as a women's holiday the first day of the month I guess there's a natural way of understanding and I'd love for you to talk about this that a monthly holiday as women tolliday rate has to do in part with the menstrual cycle. But can you talk about it also historically like when did it become? Was it? Always a women's holiday was always understood as a women's holiday. Do we know was it initially a women's holiday and then the men kind of took it over and now it's being reclaimed what do you? What do you know about the history of? Of the things that we don't know what is sort of informed speculation or whatever spiritual what is spiritual knowledge that animates this even if we might not have the formal historical knowledge. Roche. Is the very first thing that God commands Israelites to do upon leaving slavery in. Egypt. Now. You're free marked the new moon of Nissan, and all the moons thereafter and the rabbis ask why and they say because the difference between being a slave and a free person is our own ownership of time. When we are in charge of our own time at as Jewish people, we will mark the months by the mood. then. We know when we WANNA work we want to rest and when we want to be with family and when we WANNA do whatever it is that we do when we were slaves, we didn't get to make that choice, and so it's unbelievably important for Jewish people to be in relationship with time because it's our way of knowing that we're free. So obviously rush called ashes for all people of all bodies of all genders of all ages few identify with being Jewish and rush flash is your first commandment. Thanks to rabbis like precale Yaser, and Rashi it got elevated to being a women's holiday. and. They probably were just commenting on something that was happening naturally. And they said, how could it be? that. We built the Tabernacle, the Me Sean and decked it out with all of our beauty. If, we had already given all of our jewelry to build the Golden Calf when Moses was up receiving the Ten Commandments. And the rabbis pondered this and they came up the summation of their thoughts were that the golden calf was on rush the women are separate. The women refused to give their jewelry to Aaron and so therefore, they're the keepers of the faith. And they get Roscoe Dash. As an extra elevated women's holiday. and so therefore, women of always gotten Rochon Dash as. An extra day of coming together and rest. The thing about that is that that's where the written word of how to celebrate rush ended. And so Roche was put in place as one of the most lawless rituals rituals. In all of Judaism we were told to mark time we were told that it was an elevated time for people identify as women. No clear instructions about what? That means that there's so much opportunity to create something that works for a very diverse group of people and anybody that's really looking for this type of mind body soul conversation connection. I should add also that there's been mid rush. Since this time I mean we have a needed diamonds red tent, which I think is like a book that's translated into more languages than almost any book. An depicts the story of the matriarchs in the red tent. which was this monthly hut that? Females would go to an transfer information and sometimes gossip and slander but I'm Sarah I'm named for us, difficult relationship with another woman named the Gar which we read on retainer. But that's not what my biggest dream of the red tent is. The biggest train is actually it's a place to come together lift each other up. And then also in the sixties and seventies for traditional Orthodox women were looking for a place to be feminist and to be supporting women's empowerment without pulling away from tradition. and. They found these lines of text from Rashi and they set out to create some containers and some instructions for what should look like. And those are the three or four books that have been written. And then there was about twenty thirty years of no codifying of of the practice. Mainstream conservative. Jewish. Upbringing I never learned about it for one second. All of my Jewish education it wasn't something that my Momma Grandmothers did. So when I found rush hush during a real search for myself to see whether or not their spirituality in Judaism, and there was wellness Judaism, and I found Rodesch I was transformed immediately because it's so unlike all the other things and it was so exactly what I was looking for in terms of making it relational, making it my own and giving me freedom to think about my personal growth with others. Women. Circles are trending in every aspect of the secular world. And so I likely would be part of one because it's needed in natural. But with rush clash, I can also have something that's Jewish where I'm actually able to use my ancestors wisdom deep. Beautiful. Jewish was done on the Hebrew calendar to make me feel good and make me feel connected and use as a place to wrestle important things about what it means to be alive when it needs to be spiritual. With other people. So it's it's sort of best of both worlds and I think that's what really inspired me to go forward. I see rush rush as a wellness practice. I WanNa talk about like I don't know why his ex Roche quotas different from all other road issues like a little bit about each like how the year sort of flows and how the different months have these different valances I think it's like one of my favorite things about Judaism. People. Say Sort of in the abstract like Judaism is so into time and people quote Abraham Joshua, Hessels the Sabbath I think often when people talk about time and how Judaism does lots of time. They're thinking about Chabad and how there's this weekly moment i. think that the way we assign meaning to the to each of the twelve months of the year like it is. I mean on one level I think it's intuitive but it's not everybody has done that like ours secular. World. Shirley. When September rolls around I guess in my general head I think okay Labor Day and fall is ending right but we haven't like assigned joy month in the way that is has thought about a Dr in the spring as kind of joy month we haven't assigned a major sadness month in the way that Judaism has kind of assigned of in the summer as a major sad that we could go right down the list we're GONNA end up giving short shrift to some of the. Months but look I'm curious can you lake talk us through like what even some of the traditional orientations two different months of the year are and like how that would manifest in like how a given circle might sort of experience those months differently because what I love about this is like it's a rhythmic ritual where you come together over over again which we need but it's almost by definition it has to change. You can't be the same every time in the way that lots of Chabad services are roughly the same every time like it has to be different to fit whatever the month is. Your the Hebrew calendar is brilliant. Just thing to add I don't understand why would ever have the new year and the dead of winter. There's no agent teaching or any sort of doctor that would ever say, oh, that's the great time to consider making New Year's intentions is not the end of December January in the secular calendar that we have. The Hebrew calendar makes way more sense when we're thinking about feeling into our emotions like you said, having a joy month or having an anger. And if you think about the cycle in whole, it really is a sake also. Russia China. Happens. Then we go into the winter and we have peace Levin Tibet in the darkest time of the year commanded to find light. And we acknowledge that it's a really hard time. Tibet is a really hard months. There were a lot of anger usually comes up. then. We come out of the wintertime these tarp by celebrating the birthday of the trees. To Bush latte and it starts to be like a feeling of hope and planting and good, and it's like this tender loving care to come out of the depths of winter, and then we come into Odar, which you said is about joy and happiness. It's. It's so good that when the rabbis were thinking about which month we needed extra for the leap year, they're like Oh, we should obviously give them to joyous months because that's what Judaism's about at its core. And what's interesting is actually the Hebrew calendar starts with Nissan, which is the month after. Dr I probably should have started explaining this with with Nissan but. since I'm on a roll here. Asked. You Bet but I think there's no shoot I. Don't think. Should I think? Yeah like you know we get lots of different kinds of new year's and so you start. This time started with that because it's the most common new year. If someone says once the New Year, you think Russia. So wanted you know to assure you that you you did learn in Hebrews synagogue was correct. But actually when we start marking time Nissan Passover is technically the first month in terms of counting good because we usually tell people what they learned in Hebrew school is wrong. So this is this is very reassuring. Paul and that's another story. Trying. Everything is always you can always twisted answer Judaism it's beautiful. It's just a framework. But odar actually is a month of chaos which is beautiful to think about that. We end the calendar year with flipping things on its head getting drunk to reveal ourselves and find the holiest day of the year, which is poor. And then we then start with Nissan as the beginning of the of marking our freedom with Passover, and then we go into the Omar, which is. The counting of time between Passover and she will and it's about stepping closer towards our freedom in that make sense was spring because you wanna run around and play almost had in like my dad and I are in the backyard doing cartwheels like where were the cartwheel's four months ago in the winter you know and then we're at vote and vote is right there and see von and Savan. And she wrote at the time that we are at our peak of freedom at a we are available to receive. Should we be paying attention and tapped into the Hebrew calendar? And in secular time, it's like right as school is anyway. So you're just like bring it on summer and then in the Hebrew calendar unlike the secular calendar. When we think summer, we think barbecues and playing Hebrew calendar says that in the latest time of the year, we actually have some darkness and that's reflected in society. I mean crime rates historically go up in the summer when people are feeling heated in their bodies sometimes challenging things happen and the Hebrew calendar saying that to us, it starts with the breach of the walls of Jerusalem into. And that we go through the saddest time of the year from Midland those all the way through tissue is that really asks us to feel sadness. For, anybody who's read lamentations it's very hard to read that tax, which is what we read. On Tishkov without just the unbelievably. Sad. And then we immediately are caught by the full moon of of which is to bad which was placed there on purpose to catch those challenging feelings to lift us back up and make us feel love. which is what we need in order to get back into the month before Rosh. Hashanah, we feel loved and held in order to acknowledge that we humans the mark, and then we go into Russia where we have the spiritual high of twenty one. Out of twenty, nine days of the month, T shirt way as elevated times to connect with God, and then we go into coat and wander and we create the cycle again during the summertime when it's light out outside, it can be dark inside when it's wintertime when it's dark outside, there's about light in the inside. In the FAW, it's about going inward towards yourselves and making sure that you feel connected to the divine with love in the springtime is all about cultivating your sense of unbelievable freedom. And so it's a cycle and to me it makes a whole lot more sense in terms of my own growth and may own moral compass who I won't be. Than anything that to do in the secular calendar, which it feels kind of Iraq and not necessarily thought through. On that last point, I'm just curious if you think about like the second calendar says speak as not thought through in the Hebrew calendar is or would you say that we could we could place a certain set of those valances right on the secular calendar if somebody were so inclined right I, mean like somebody could. Could find like I. Guess my question is does the Hebrew calendar inherently have these meanings or was this? You know the genius of, let's say early rabbis or somebody else who who kind of projected this these meanings onto the calendar in in that beautiful way that you just described. I really do think that's the brilliance of the rabbis two to be connected to the land and be connected the cycles and to relate that to our emotions and really reflect on what's happening for humans and also. For me, I use obviously the secular Roman calendar as a way for work I think it was designed for that. Always I can't just say to you. Okay. I'll meet you on the twenty third of for this podcast recording, and so I think of the Roman time as my work calendar, and then I think of the Hebrew calendar as my spiritual calendar and the one that I'm checking in daily to understand what type of emotional work it is my job as a Jewish person to be doing now, how does it relate to my freedom? How does it relate to? What I'm supposed to be focusing on for people who've gone to therapy before like myself like the therapist is like, what do you want to work on like? Oh, my gosh like where do I even start and he recounter's is there to guide saying this is the month to really lean into your joy. This is the month to break it down. This is the month to feel sad, this is the month. To go towards a broken string in family ties retied that not to each other. This is the month Mozza, and that guide post is really helpful to me. It's interesting. I shared Dan's impulse and constantly am looking for for ways that we can sort of. Sanctify the the secular counter in addition to the Jewish calendar. But I also like I mean I'm pulled in multiple directions because I I do think there's a genius at play here but I also in the Jewish calendar but I also I want to name ways in which we've. We've sort of done this. secularly, we just haven't noticed and we haven't talked about it and I'm drawing on one of our teachers on the PODCAST, Casper. Kyle who one of his court teachings is like you do you. Do holy stuff in your life. You're just like not calling it whole. You're not noticing so like I recently had a conversation because I'm always in the universe of like sports. Judaism. Stuff and I was talking with somebody talking with my spouse actually, and then my dad and a few others about like what are the New Year's in sports calendar for people that are like deep in the sports calendar like when do we experience new years and there were a few like shared answers and multiple of them? Aligned with where we approximately have Jewish new year's the different new years of the opening. Day of baseball is in the spring usually around Passover when the new football season starts in the fall is usually right around Rosanna everybody who's checking their phones in services sneaking off to the bathroom to see what's going on can verify that and then If we broaden beyond just sports, the school year starts around that General Time College students who are stressed because the first day of class is rosia Shana I. Can Tell you all about that one and the fiscal year even I always joke when the fiscal year rolls around, it's the first day of the seventh month of the secular calendar like July first is often the the change of the fiscal year. Obviously, there's like different fiscal years two but like I joked that that's the one. That's the one moment from the Bible that we've actually sake defined as a secular society. The first day of the seventh month, we turn the page, we start a new year. I think we talk about Judaism is having like multiple New Year's as being deeply distinctive thing but I think the point is we all need multiple New Year's eve and and that's part of what rush quotas does. Rightly it's it's a new month right? So it's not it's not necessarily a new year always although even like the first available is call the new. Year for animals text. There are ways that we call it new years but my I guess my question is To what extent is this ritual valuable just because like we need to constantly be renewing like we we need to constantly be beginning and turning the page and like not enough to just have a Rocha Shana once a year where we look inward like we actually need this kind of constantly. I, think the point that you're saying that I share with you is that humans need truck -ture humans need rhythm humans need time to come together and talk about the things that are important to them in their life and realizing them makes it holy elevates it from just being a mundane thing. As an athlete myself like there's nothing more stressful than making it to the national championship and then having that national championship be on a time that I can't go because I'm Jewish and I have to make this really hard decision for myself. There's nothing more stressful than starting school and having rush on at the same time. So maybe I'm having you know, I hold the Uber calendar up more importantly because it has to do a spiritual work and. The regular calendar feels more legwork and I'm in conflict as a Jew but it does feel pretty overwhelming sometimes. But I, think that you're naming school starting in the fall is a very natural thing because it's a new time. But yeah, Rush Kodak is definitely opportunity for each month to say, okay, Ov is now done that was a roller coaster sometimes of low and sometimes I'm high and that was really intense and I'm exhausted. And now, I'm going to close this out or many get together with my Wall Street group. I'm going to pivot towards. Finding beloved in God a Neela Dough Dealer Dodie. Lee which is the across the Hebrew month of L. Will, which is the month before Russia Shana. The same is true like when case love ends and Teva comes it saying, okay. I've just cultivated this and light in my life. Now, it's time for me to do a little bit of a hard work because you know we know that the beginning of winter we feel hopeful we're GonNa do this we got this new winter coat. It's going to be okay and then two months three months into the debt of the turns holds like, wow. I've been inside with the family too much and we're getting each other's nerves and he calendars right there to say, I got you notice the anger that might come up. Let's acknowledge it. Let's tackle it together. Could you give it a little bit of an example for any given month like when people get together in a well circle? What did they do? Do they pray? Do they Do they have a curriculum where they're studying something? How does that spiritual work actually happen and what do you imagine is the ideal I the ideal right now, like describe a little bit the experience of a person who travels through at the well over the course of a year. But also you know where you're trying to go where how at the well deepen this over the course of time what what's your? DC At the well as as what it's doing basically, but more and better, and that's part of a larger Jewish landscape or is there something in particular that you're really driving at the well towards those are two separate question. So let's start with. You know what actually happens their? Main rush is the quintessential diy Jewish ritual because again there's no laws or instructions about how to celebrate it which means that it's truly open for your own interpretation would after well does is provides a lot of teaching a lot of content. A lot of different activities are based on that teaching. So we encourage a rotating leadership model, which means that every month there's a new teacher for your group every month, a different person is hosting in their home when that's allowed. It is truly update the facilitator for each month to look at the theme saying, okay, what is the teaching of the month of Hush von? And then go to our resources and you'll see a meditation and a journal Thing at art project a recipe. There's a lot of different modalities that they could take with this teaching. I participated in a while circle for three years. We were all like yoga teachers or or massage therapist or something, and so are well circle. All the time was very embodied. We did a lot of movement. We did a lot of dance. We use the themes of the month and processed that spiritual work through our bodies. Yesterday I talked to a wall circle that love text they came together and they decided that we're going to really base our teachings around texts, and so they used the Torah portions that are associated with each month and they learn something from there. another in circle might decide they only want to learn the women in the biblical characters that show up in that month and they base it on that. Every group that's to decide for themselves. Every facilitator takes on the ownership of what they're teaching voice looks like what happens with a group over time is that you can go back to the Hash von before and be like, wow, first of all the world was completely. Different and also last time I can say that Rebecca led us through this unbelievable exercise. If you remember that this hush von I, think we should do some journal reflecting and sharing with each other. Judaism you know really loves the tell us how to do things and that if you just reclined to the left on the fourth glass of wine than you're somehow going to be elevated to this one thing that you need to remember. and. I found that often times perform the ritual didn't actually bring me into my heart didn't actually bring me into my emotional self and that we got so caught up with just following the rules that we forgot about why the ritual or the law was put there and so the walls, the opposite of that it saying start feeling start with the thing start with what it is that you want achieve and then think about the structure or the modality that will help us get there building off of that we have a network of circles and. These circles are designed to have a rotating leadership model so that everyone has to have the job of weeding which inherently creates belonging because it's a group of people with a shared mission who are responsible for creating this together rather than having one leader, and that then bleeds into the whole ethos of the network that we have. So someone posts on our facebook group, Hey I'm about to teach this month circle I wanna lead something that is going to spark some creativity for my group. Any ideas that person's GonNa get ten ideas from the network itself. And then on top of that, we've built a structure so that we have fifteen volunteer while circle coaches. So people can sign up to get a coaching and we have people who WANNA volunteer their time to give back to the larger network by talking it out with people. The biggest thing that we see about why people don't do this is number one. They didn't know that it existed. So we can work on that and number two fear a fear that I don't know Jewish enough to lead it a fear that women have never been taught to lift their voice even in a time when we say that we're doing that as a society are we really still doing that a fear of being perfect just an enormous amount of fear And what I've seen with our volunteer coaches with myself of the thousands of conversations I've had over the years is that one hour long conversation can really move someone very far and we we take the image of the well not randomly. Plan wellness. Obviously, it's a nod to one of the most incredible leaders that Jewish people ever had in. Miriam and it's also a place that people have always gone for help and resources and information, and then they bring that information back. To their tribe or toward their town. One thing that we have not unpacked yet, which I am excited, very, very excited to dive into is that you're an athlete. And now that you're very, very successful athlete, you were the National Division One goalkeeper of the year in Lacrosse That's a pretty amazing thing and I wanNA. I WanNa talk with you about that because it's cool listeners you're you're hearing from somebody who is in their colleges hall of fame WHO's in? A Jewish Hall of fame for sports but also because. I think that there's something here in how you've constructed I. Mean I'm being presumptuous but like their feels to me like something where a person who has a background as part of a team sport would be uniquely suited uniquely well suited to start something in the way you have, which is I was on your website for at the well and I noticed something that struck me as very different from a lot of other Jewish communal projects, which is you strongly hitting courage people to have closed circles you. On your site, it says that you know eight twelve people as a great size for an at the wall circle and it should really be. It should really be like a contained group and not necessarily always open and you say if the and you don't bar open I mean then says if you WanNa, have an open circle you can. We just encourage a close circle and to me that feels very much like sort of a team modality it feels like somebody who spent time were you captain of your team? Yeah. Okay. So that doesn't surprise it. It it somebody who was deeply shaped in how I understand community generally. I honestly think as much. My Cross Country Team in high school shaped my initial understandings of what it is to be part of a community both like. The obligations of community and the privileges and support of community that I received like I think. There's ways in which that can really be learned in deep way athletics especially in intercollegiate athletics, which I was not skilled enough to take part in. But like the people I knew who were on Varsity or club sports like the bond they had with their teammates was a level that was just deeper than even the people that I knew that were really involved with like with like. A cappella groups on campus or even hill some like like there was just something that happened there and I'm curious to ask like, is there anything conscious that you're doing in your work to try and build groups of people that support each other? The do all the things that like a socially healthy good sports team would be obviously there's also problems that happened in the sports world to be sure but like Them Yeah but but like. I'm curious because we we haven't had somebody who is you know a hall of fame member talk us through that. Is that conscious? Do you think there might be something subconscious there my making everything up what's going on? Now, it's I. Think about this every day constantly try to pull lessons that I've learned my life to do the work beyond sports. I was also raised going to quaker school my whole life. So I've always said encircles always found consensus In terms of my sports part of my ethos is to command the field and to lead the field but standard one place to encourage eleven players to go out there and take risks and go for it and make it their own and don't be afraid of messing up because at the end of the day I got you but also trade may to really be able to see things quickly also see them in a bigger context than just each one shot you make a save, and then you need also would be able to pass the ball fifty yards down the field to get fast break. I truly am shaped by my experience as as an athlete and playing at that level. There's also something about losing in the national championship that keeps a fire burning in you forever like if we had won that game I wonder whether or not I'd take on starting organizations in being an entrepreneur or if because I lost that most important game that I worked every day for that I have this thing that I'm still out there get. I don't know these are things that I think about. In terms of. The closed group allows belonging. When you have an open group of people, you have nobody owns in, you're going to end up having one person that needs to really be quote unquote the leader. And that means that you'll end up being a gathering and. You don't have the opportunity to pass it on to somebody. And one groups are open and they do pass it. It can be really beautiful. Don't get me wrong because you have the opportunity to invite people into the sacred space even if it's not for them, they got to witness it and feel it. But I think in terms of me and where I've felt like I've grown the most felt the most comfortable sharing vulnerable vulnerably and also really got an end to the stuff. I need to build that relationship with people over time and I need to know that other people in the group will invite me to their house and facilitate the conversation. It's not just on my shoulders. I think rabbis like goal is can be very lonely people because WHO's inviting them over for Shibata, an invite them over for Chabad get all nervous 'cause the rabbis coming in, it wants to be perfect. while. Circles Dot the all know that we're going to mess up but that we're all here to watch each other's teachings again as a goal you want to inspire your team to go out there and be great and here the caboose and that's how I see the work about the will in ancient times Rochon Dash will be marked by the Temple Mount. Would light a big bonfire and then the next hill over would see that it was Rochon Dash Day with light their bonfire and then the next hill over light there bonfire and that's what apple is doing and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm part of one circle and there's hundreds of other circles that are out there Fazli would have done as a Buyer and that my job is to keep that fire going so that people can feel inspired by it and go out there just like an attacker might feel inspired to go out there and score that goal. So to person, go out there and feel inspired to create a really beautiful place of belonging around the Hebrew. Calendar. Is Personally, very inspired by what you're talking about because you like me or like what I'm trying to do are are trying to do deep deep. Jewish work whether it's spiritual or otherwise deep but unauthorized right meaning that you're not a rabbi you're not in rabbinical school and reflect on that a little bit because I've tried very hard to resist becoming a rabbi. because. But because for me, there's actually something that I'm going for here, which is the the need for regular people to step up and do these things in the capacity of regular people to step up and do these things in that. Somehow it's been drilled into us that that we have to defer to somebody else and almost feel like by not accepting a title like that I'm trying. To model the idea that a regular person can do this even at the even at the highest level and I I wonder if there's a sports connection to that as well you you into that a little bit but but more more importantly I'm asking you about yourself and also about these these folks that you're working with and how you think about the kind of unauthorized dimension of it. Yeah, I mean first of all, I love rabbis and I totally respect people who feel that call and step towards it I don't feel called to be a rabbi and so that's why I'm not. I feel. Being a community member who steps up just like you are saying Dan. Always, really loved and respected the idea of the president of the synagogue. In who takes on volunteers role and that's not a rabbi I am not interested in that profession at least now for me maybe in my sixties, I'll go back and do do rabbinical school and be like Rabbi Akiva start learning later in my life. But for now, I feel more like a business person. But one that's really trying to do it with a social mission and to inspire philanthropy to be able to fuel very equitable important women's teaching women's leadership. So. My last question is, can you now play that piece out because I'm I'm really interested in how you're thinking about the future of the well until dimensions both where do you hope at the well goes? Is it more circles or is it something beyond that or or of the above and can you describe that a little bit and then the other question I think is As you look at the landscape of of the Jewish community today. Are there ways in which you imagine this isn't something that I want to do. This isn't something that at the well wants to do. But these are some thoughts that you've had about how different elements of the Jewish community or different parts of Judaism, could model themselves on at the well and sort of say, Hey, we can take on the holidays in a new. Way Or. We could take on life cycle rituals in a new way or or whatever it might be and can you I think I think your perspective is so important and so so unique it would just be interesting to hear a little bit of you're just kind of random speculation about what else it would be good to have out there in the Jewish world. The goal is to have more circles to have a network that stronger between the circles and to be measuring the impact of these circles on people's lives so that we can continue to progress society at this intersection of Health and holiness because Rochon is a ritual that is found within Judaism and resembles a gathering. Important Marking of time that found in other indigenous cultures like said. And, across the Board Women's gatherings are still either used as a way to oppress them by men control. Or. Not Remembered than the biggest version of atwells dream is that we've created so much of a culture of their. and. Terms of inspiring Rochon dash across the Jewish people that we can then create abridged other cultures and other groups and help them form women circles again and inspire them to create their own content using the wisdom of their own ancestors. And then at the wall becomes a place that's created there and the bridge to others in terms of the Jewish world. My answer is pretty simple. I don't spend so much time thinking about what Jaycees synagogue should do. It's not my role, my role right now I don't know if I'll work in those spaces are not the from my Lens. There is not a corner of the Jewish people that shouldn't be having wall circles, goals, and so the model of the well is something very different. It's not a building it's not a trip to Israel it's similar to you to podcast. So that's something different. can reinforce people who go on trips in Israel and come back to build those communities by inviting the ritual with the people identify as being women on that truck. With synagogues could have a hundred while circles that mean people's homes that reinforce people's connections to each other and therefore back to synagogue, the same thing can be true with MOMS of kids in day schools the same thing can be true with the J. programs. And the young professional programs, etcetera, etcetera etcetera. So my work right now are those things to help create the infrastructure of the wall that we can measure the work that we're doing and we can recorded. So that's oral Torah and written Torah that's being marked by our website in this well of resources is robust and then to coach in inspire and work with the Jewish community to remember Roche quotas to bring it back. Then to say that, we can be partners. Also shout out though well in Detroit, which is fine. founded by my friend Dan and his wife Mariam was in my first responders group ever. Though well, and at the well. started at almost the exact same time. It was a very funny conversation when I called them saying I was going to do this in this was the name and they said. Doing something in this is the name and immediately we relate great your model is circles. Our model is circles. Let's get women's goals. Let's get some wall circles there, and as of now they have eleven circles there. Those circles are reinforcing everything that they're building in Detroit and model for what can happen in La with new routes We've been working with for years now and almost every city now. Rashi is the one who said Rochon Dash is here because women are the keepers of the faith. So? I'm looking around the Jewish role that I'm like, where's that ritual? That Rashi said is really help us, and now is the moment reinvest in it not even reinvested it now is the time to invest in it period. It is the first marking time in Torah and in terms of dollars and time and people's energy rush. Hud Ashes, not even the same plane as she bought before harvest festivals. In it needs to be up there. Well on the circles for just wanted a name that Dan Horowitz has been on our show twice and Dan shouted you out and now you're shouting Dan back from the well which itself makes a circle. And the last thing on circles is I just learned recently that the reason there are three hundred, sixty degrees in a circle, it could have been any number of degrees mathematically is that Ancient calendars were often three, hundred, sixty days. So the circle itself as a calendar ICAL Metaphor, which brings us to Rochas, which bring this full circle circle again, thank you Sarah Waxman so much for joining. This has been an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for having me and for creating the space to breathe life into this ritual. To give me space to share a little bit of the story and my own place within the Jewish people. Are Alive here and fifty, seven, eighty one and are saying, yes to continuing to bring something beautiful into world in honor of my ancestors and honor while the people who will come for me. I WanNa make sure that the people who are alive with me on earth right now are linked together looking each other up. Absolutely what a great closing note that we should be lifting each other up. We certainly all need that in these unprecedented times of ours. Thanks again is here Waxman for being on the show. Thanks to all of you out there for listening. We hope that you've enjoyed this episode. We hope that you will continue honoring your way through the dreasm unbound podcast in future episodes listening in and. Want to close out this conversation in the same way that we always do by encouraging you to be in touch with us, and there are a wide variety of ways you to do that. I can head to our facebook page, Judaism unbound second you can hit us up on twitter or on instagram. Those are also Judaism unbound as the handles you can go to our website duties on. Netcom. Email addresses. You can send us emails at our email addresses Dan at Judaism dot com or lexa Judaism about NUTCA-. The last we'd like to make is that we deeply appreciate any amount of financial donation that you can set. Aside in some their way you can do that via either a monthly recurring gift or a one time donation at Judaism unbound dot com slash donate. So thank you so much for listening in with that. Has Been. About.

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Engaging Gods Word Through Music  Delvyn Case

Creatively Christian

1:05:12 hr | Last month

Engaging Gods Word Through Music Delvyn Case

"Welcome to creatively christian. A podcast by the media where we inspire inform educate and empower creative christians of all types. I'm one of your host brandon today andrea connects with devlin chase to talk about the power of engaging god's word through music and about approaching our creative time well devlin also shares an original song at the end of the episode. Well hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of creatively christian. I'm your host andrea sandifer. And today i am joined by delvin case. Dalvin is an associate professor of music. I in college massachusetts. He's also a music director For the great woods symphony orchestra and he used the executive director of day. Use x musica which will hear more about in today's interview. So welcome dell so good to have you happy to be here. I'm excited to dig into these questions. Because i feel like anytime that we dig into what god is doing in the life of a creative. We learned so much from each other and walk away so encouraged by Just yeah what. God's doing in the lives of each creative that we talked to and Let's just digging. So what was your faith and musical upbringing and education. Will you know as a musician. I've played like every kind of charge. I think there is I have not played except for those traditions. That don't use musical instruments. But i you know as the frog you folks out there who are who are artists. Never turn down a gate right and that means whatever church asks you to play you. Learn their music and you help to contribute to their community. And i think the reason why. I enjoy doing that because i did to have a pretty wide ranging a upbringing. I was baptized roman catholic. I was a pretty hardcore. Ultra boy when i was a kid. I loved wearing the robe and processing and carrying a crucifix and lighting candles. And all that kind of stuff and then when i was in high school might my dad got born again as he would say it and He took our family to the Evangelical conservative baptist. Church in maine. So i can't call it a mega church because main is a small place so it was like the world's smallest mega church but it had carpets in theater lining in the prison worship band. And i really didn't know what hit me because it was very far from my experience I had been serious. Classical music For ever since. I was quite young and i also love pop music so wasn't like hearing. The prison worship band was or for me. You know i love pop. Music fact probably loved it more than classical but it was weird for me to hear it in a church Spent about a decade Worshiping way through the evangelical world. And when i was so by mid twenties i sort of find myself more at home in more mainline denominations presbyterian church usa in. I've been in the united church of christ congregational Up here in new england for about twenty years now And i have been involved as the church musician playing organ being cold director in the piscopo church for several years as well as playing in prison worship bands Conducting humbles messiah playing in a bluegrass gospel band. So like really you know four decades so on my life. I've i've worshipped at played in and for a wide variety of american churches and i think it's a good thing i think it's an amazing thing and i love how you said that just in the beginning at saying yes to opportunities as they unfolded you know saying yes to whatever god is bringing into your life i think that's that's the most beautiful part of these journeys when the when the opportunity presents itself for us to grow forward in our gifts in a certain way you know in in the different circles that god's placed us in a saying yes it's a beautiful a step of obedience so awesome and yeah and i forgot to kind of throw it back to you kind of elaborate on who you are and what you do but you are coming to us from the massachusetts coast. There's so where exactly do you live. And what is the creative work. A typical life of dell case. Look lake land. Coming to you from boston where i've been for about almost twenty years. I'm a professor at a small secular liberal arts college in massachusetts called wheaton college Which is not related to the christian college. Neil annoy like to say that we were first What orchids probably nothing. But it's interesting ironic. Because most of my work. I do most of my work professionally in the worlds of the allah g. and church music. So i i feel like i'm not i wouldn't say i'm that the wrong we know known i say the god made a mistake but i think that god might be playing a joke on me perhaps see what do you want to go to wheaton shore. We'll send you a week i You know as professor six of the year. I teach courses to undergraduates a wide variety of courses. I teach courses in music theory and music history. I also teach courses in pop music history of music and teach courses in songwriting and in composition so students right fokker singer. Songwriter works but also use it for string quartet. Or you know one student. Starting writing an opera and professionally. I also deserted. The college also conduct the college orchestra which has members of the public as well as college community orchestra. And then professionally. I do i write. I speak Rand i create projects that are basically in the orbit of the intersections between music and the christian life. And i define it broadly. Because i'm interested any classical music and pop music sacred music in secular music. I'm also interested in how music interacts with faith. The way we live our faith as well as more academically with theology. Or we'll wait at american music. A particular can help us understand American christianity and. It can talk more about that. If you want so i i write a blog for eighth house which is sort of a big blogging serviced. Some of your listeners might know of. I do academic work to speak at seminaries and churches and also when i have time which is mostly during the summers i. I'm a composer. So i do write music in a modern classical music style. I i've written an opera. I've written a symphony written music for string quartet and for classical singers but most of those pieces are sacred in nature meaning that they usually set to biblical texts or they explore ideas from the christian tradition. One thing. I don't do as write music for church. I don't write hymns. I don't write a lot of music for choir to sing. I don't rate prison worship songs. I write music. That is oftentimes presenting a concert setting but it explores elements of the christian tradition. So in it's the idea of sacred music placed in a secular context Which allows people to respond to it. In various ways the christians in the audience will respond to it as music as well as pieces of art. That would speak to them spiritually but people audience that are not christian will just respond to it. S a piece of music so doesn't happen to church where normally music in churches just the people in church. Yeah and i love you very. i'm very wide range of what you do And the different kinds of music that you're even interested in But and it sounds like. We're kind of polar opposites and where i create most of my music in the wintertime when it's cold dark and i have nothing to do and because you're a teacher. You're you're definitely more time driven and your creative work personnel. So when did when did you start first For start writing your own music doing your own composing and was there somebody that god used in your life to kind of encourage you forward and that work. Absolute is a great question. I bet you everyone listening. Who's a creative artists had had at least one person one of those angels sent from god to minister to them to Netscape the case for me. I started coming up with my own music when i was in fifth or sixth grade. I was playing the piano And got Just kept doing that in middle school but was a first freshman. I think in high school. I wanted to write music more seriously and i had a former music teacher who was a teacher from from elementary school. Who was a composer and arranger. And he showed me how to set up an orchestral score and show me how to write for the instruments and under his his mentorship. I wrote a piece that was performed and in public. And i hoped that point hearing hearing musical ideas we brought to life in front of me. By fifty or sixty people on stage was incredible But without you know mr birdie. I really wouldn't have gone that start. It wouldn't have that experience that showed me what it's like to have your music come to life. What a gift he was. And that's that's exciting. See you had your first piece like presented by an orchestra and that was like in high school well so it was a a a. You might call it like a concert band. It was sort of a select wind. Ensemble was performed in city hall in portland maine ramp from so it was. It was like an allstate kind of ensembles really really good. High school musicians and there was no way a child prodigy at all but in that pieces. It's it's the first music. I wrote but really hearing my friends. Mike pierce take a piece of music that i wrote and play it in the conductor who was a local music professor to have him. Rehearse it like you would rehearse music by anybody else get. That kind of respect was another powerful way that he ministered to me. He showed that he thought i had creative spark. I'd put the work in and i it might. Music deserves the respect. And so dr barton as well with someone else without whom i wouldn't have started are probably continued creating music and that was kind of leads into one. The questions they wanted to ask you about like inner journeys. Sometimes we can really suffer from like imposter syndrome or just a bunch of Feelings of inadequacy or self doubt and so did those people that kind of cheered. You want initially Help you through that or what. What are ways that you've had to kind of work through any feelings of self doubt that it's a good question I mean i'm white american man. I think i could do anything you know. I it's built into me like it's not accurate but boston syndrome is not something that i i struggle with in some ways but i would say that on the baseline level. I assume that i could do anything. I have extraordinary privilege as artists though when you're sitting there spacing blankets paper. Were all imposters. Right because you know at the end of the day even if you just won the pulitzer prize in music you still got turn around the next day and face a blank sheet of paper and i think there's always that question. Oh man what. If nothing comes out you know i love that. We're all imposters in sue. Let's talk a little bit. Like and i didn't necessarily prep you for this one but like when you sit down and you have that blank piece of paper. What are your steps forward. What is that. What is that confident. Step forward look like in your creation. I would say that And i told this to my students. A lot is that you have to start. You have to do something because as ensure you know and all the other creative listening is that the idea is not the hard part to be a real artist right. It's what you do with the idea. There's a probably spurious Quote by brahms composer. And i. i'm sure you would when he said this. But because i heard was that the hardest measure music to rightist measure. Fives and i think you get that. Like most melodies are four bars long. serve anybody. can i mean maybe not anybody but it's not that hard to write a pretty okay for -ality the first round of a song you know You know whatever it. Is you know when i think of your love the moon i think if you you know in the daytime at night in at noon okay. I just made that up. That's that's not great stuff but the question is then okay. What's next what's next and that question of what's next. That is what i think. The difference between being able to write measure five and not being able to is what it means to be an actual practicing artists. Someone who works in their craft and who someone is developed the skills and the tools so that after comedy the idea you know how to develop had attorney into something that that that really expresses what you wanna say. Basically i think too. I think that being an professional artists artists who is committed to their craft. Whether or not they make money right. is viewing it as a as a as a job or task and mean not getting it romantically in the sense own. I gotta wait for the next inspiration sitting down coming up with an idea no matter what it is. You know if it's bad and then using your tools to format biscuit. I think artistic training allows you to be fertile soil. A seed can grow. Yeah doesn't teach you how to call the seed but luckily the known goes out. It's springtime in kicks of smell. The smells the seeds hours. you know. there's a long journey between the seed. In a thing. We really experience. And i think back journey is what being committed creative genes putting the time into learn the ways to nurse that seat access. Absolutely i love that. And i yeah i think we often forget that the little disciplines the little habits that we build the the The little pieces of work are helping us grow and learn and Yeah blink pages can be really intimidating but just starting we can trust that by just taking the time to do the work to walk forward in it. If something if god wants something to flow out of that it will flow out of that but we can't if we don't start so i love that planting the seeds and just allowing god to do the faithful work of letting it grow where he wants it to. That's awesome use the word face. Because i think that one of the things that christian artists can model for instance is an openness to crazy ideas and openness to the possibility of life where there isn't life i mean. What does the resurrection beyond believing something. That doesn't seem possible. Aunt what is the resurrection what Christianity is a religion offers hope drug Basically proves that there's life beyond beyond death and just need like life ever after mean like life in this world you know trying to make the kingdom of god happened in your life by turning the other cheek by remembering that marin that the poor are more important the rich all these other kinds of things you know what i mean we just have to walk around every day and be ready for inspiration. We also have to be willing to to take a little idea that seems dead. And there's gotta be life in your somewhere. And i just think there's a way that we approach the world where we have this hospitality at our core like we have to be ready to find life anywhere. It is yeah. yeah and i think that's. That's a huge calling that we can all It's a beautiful way to approach our work as let's find the hope let's let's sow the seeds of hope in this world Let's bring the kingdom. I you know having to earth Through what we do and what we share and yet and i love you. Know like your You talked about just inspiration and and that we need to be ready for that. And i know something that you were inspired to do something that i actually got to take part in recently W- what. I call a musical bible study and i think that was the way you described it to me before we when we were talking prior to this So neat what inspired. You're musical bible studies and can you share a little bit about what those are like absolutely So the event that you attended online we call it a musical bible study and it's basically that it's a bunch of people who gather to talk about scripture but instead of opening up our bibles in taking turns reading the psalm for example than talking about we just put one step before and the step that we put in is a piece of music at response to or sets to meet or assess these that song. careful. There are basically instead of just reading the song. We will listen to a couple of different musical settings of that song. So what what what. You were a couple of brand new pieces of music. Written for a singer and pianist that that set to music the words of the psalm. In this case i think it was some fifty seven and what we do. Is we ask people to gather together in fellowship. Listen to a couple of pieces of music that set the songs the song together and then talk about the scripture using a music as a lance so rather than saying what do you think psalm. Fifty seven means to you or what. Do you think that the psalmist is trying to stay. We actually get there but we get there by asking the question. Well what was the composer's interpretation. What was the composer trying to say about about the text and that little using as a lens allows us to experience scripture in really different ways than we're used to it The arts as as you know music particularly think speaks to our emotions primarily It brings out drama. It brings out nuance that we oftentimes just gloss over when we when we read quickly and so it's nice to be able to experience scripture through the interpretations of musicians because they have spent two several weeks to write my setting of psalm fifty seven of living with that text. It's a lot of turning over every single word in my head. There's a lot of writing and revising. Until i get it. Just right and very few engage with any kind of texts with that kind of level of of intensity and depth. In whether it's a poem. Emily dickenson or the bible says. When you're responding to a composer's musical interpretation of the bible your getting inside their head and you're you're joining with them in the creative process to a certain extent because you are also becoming the audience. Never that they've They've been tried to write for all that being said. When we hold these events live online we have ecumenical group of ten dis. Who are not musicians breath musicians who are willing to open themselves up to an experience of the bible that is different than what they're used to. Yeah and did you see like what triggered that step forward and creating that. What kind of need or what What void in your In your ministry. Or what was the the goal behind doing these kind of studies. That's a question. I should mention that. We do these studies on through this organization. I founded called musica. You mentioned We do them live. But we also online now And for them through churches and seminaries and and other organizations so basically Just a moment you know we all go to church. Most of us go to church. That has music in it. There are a few denominations traditions. That don't have it on russian orthodox churches news music you know Instruments said but the idea that when we go to church we hear we sing along choruses. We might sing hymns. We made a choir sing classical piece of music sacred music. But you know that music. The job of that music is to prepare our hearts and minds for worship. And that's what it does. It helps us to feel close to god and that's great but music doesn't but secret music doesn't just have to do that The music that. I write music music that that off road that mozart wrote that many other composers wrote was actually not intended to be used in a church service. It was intended to be heard in a concert hall which begs the question. Okay is is it sacred music if it's happening in a secular space. The answer is yes. Because the composer's set the bible music and the guebuza was a person of faith. So then you have this weird situation where a bunch of people go into a secular space like a concert hall and hear a piece of music. That was intended to minister to people spiritually. But they're not hearing in a place that's conducive to that for that ministry. Have that makes sense. So what six music does is simply take sacred pieces of music whether they're new or old remove them from church like remove them from their role in worship and instead present them in a in a secular space ray but to follow that secular performance with the spiritual exploration. That really doesn't happen anywhere. I'm so all we're doing is trying to find ways to take this extraordinary collection of sacred pieces of ridden the last thousand years and put them in a context where christians today can benefit from the spiritual wisdom that they offer. Yeah and i. And i think when i joined in that recent event something i didn't know a soul on the zoom call. There were there had to be like a few dozen people involved in that. And i didn't know a single person outside of you and it's a little intimidating. I had no idea that the face background of everyone. I know we were all over. The world Tuning into that one. That was pretty cool. But something i experienced was that no matter. What our backgrounds were. No matter you know what Yeah like what are foundations were. When we started to the text that psalm text through the music and focused more on how it made us feel or how how the composer really brought out certain phrases of the psalm and how it kind of it made us look at the psalm differently. No matter where we were coming from no matter what our backgrounds we learn from each other we all. It was a very encouraging beautiful interaction to where i had never met any of these people and i left going there like my friends like i just did bible study with them and i. I was so encouraged by them and i think that was something beautiful. I got outta. That was no matter. Our backgrounds no matter where we live We can engage the bible and in in a beautiful way like that and it it it almost it. It surpasses What might hold back. Sometimes if it like if we're sitting in a table with each other in in a particular setting like an church or something like that and you know we were pouring over. The same text might have things that kind of come between us a little bit but almost felt like that music almost opened the door for us to really join together. Almost a unity of faith in a way. Does that make sense. Well let me say so. That i i i. It's very very gratifying to hear that. Because that's what we hope happens. But if i could turn this run ask you. Maybe could i ask you what it was about. The experience that led you to feel more connected with people or like there was more unity. Could you think you're on it. Because i would like to know. Yeah yeah and i think because the so there were three settings of the same psalm that we did and the first round. I was caught off guard a little bit because i had never really spent time with the classical style that we were. Engaging with that day i had never had to like give feedback on any of that or real. It was really. It was almost It was it was it was a challenging thing for me to Step into and there was another in our group who was not a musician at all he was just there to soak in the event and just But by the third round we. And i was telling you earlier that are host When we were offline before our host of our little breakout group. She was so gracious and she was she away of really making us all. Feel welcome and No interpretations were bad interpretations. Or you know like everything was everything was good to be discussed but by that third round the i think there were maybe six or seven of us in this little group that were interacting head never met any of them before We were all over the world and But we were we were engaging with. I think it was. You're setting we were engaging with it and interpreting like i heard this all and i heard this and and then we would almost like per. Catherine didn't even have a chance to respond. and we just like back and forth between the six of us. We were encouraging each other and responding to what each other was saying and growing in our own understanding through what each other was sharing it was in. It took us. It took us that little momentum to get going but by that third round it was. It was just beautiful. This feel almost like this this unity in a group that had never interacted before this little zoom call and it was. It was beautiful. It was just kind of a beautiful picture of the church. I think To me that no matter. Our backgrounds. No matter our geographical locations That we could interact in a beautiful way Over over this music. Over this piece of music while i wonder if this this might lead us ask what is it about regular bible study. That makes that harder you know. That's way maybe we can cause most of the time we're going to do regular bowel study. Yeah yeah. I wonder what it is that we could do. What could we take from this. You know to create that environment. Were you know more consistently again arts. We could borrow from. Yeah it's it's a great question. I i really. I would love to explore that further. And i think as creatives we can really and i. I'm a bible study leader so for me. It's almost a challenge forward. Like what can i do. And i'm a musician too. So maybe there's some way. I can bring a musical side in to what i do in my own leading Even if it's just hey. Here's the texts that we read. Here's just a simple meditation. I wrote a melody to. Let's just interact with it really quick and it'd be really fun to see if it changes the dynamic of our group a little bit. Yeah it's a good point. No no not. All of us can write songs of meditation. But you know every single. I honestly almost every single chapter. The bible has many pieces of music that are based upon it. I mean if you go to the wikipedia page for any song at the very bottom. It lists like ten twenty pieces of music. That said that you know that that feature and you can then just find them on youtube or spotify like you could find two different settings of psalm. One hundred it would take you twenty seconds you know and then simply playing those. You do your own version of this. I mean anybody can do their own version of this without any training. And that's the important thing i think. Is you know when you go to bible study. You don't have to know greek. And so because the bible should speak to you. You don't know the original participle. Greek for the word right. Same is true for music. We all engaged music in different ways. We all have different amounts of training. Music doesn't belong just to the the scholars so even if there's someone listening to this who wants to try to their own church you don't need to be able to explain why the this piece of music works. This doesn't work no you you you play a musical setting of psalm. One hundred and you say how does this make you think about the text and what you take from it spiritually. That's kind of enough It's not the only way to study the bible. There's this place for lots of other things but when you're talking about is actually a pretty unique way to do it. Yeah it really is. It's beautifully unique. And i'm so glad i took the opportunity to engage that day. It was it was a it was a wonderful blessing. Really started was early for me. It was early in the morning being appear in alaska but it set the course of my day. Just beautifully so Yeah that's a good. I'm going to have to dig into how i want to almost grow forward in my own. Bible study Leading maybe bringing in something From what i've learned through working with you on this stuff and walk into this stuff but cool. Well let's Let's dig into the The it's called the practical side of what you do. So when you are capturing and presenting your music. I know a lot of our listeners. They're just trying to figure out how best to capture stuff Record stuff And then present it forward. I know you have a lot of stuff on youtube. A lot of your music on youtube and it seems like a lot of your work is recorded there in that that i'd call it. They like a church hall or something like that. Are you using a special equipment to Report all of that. You have a special sound guy or is it as simple as just hitting record on On a computer somewhere. While i definitely think set that for a lot of people think that you know you know the phrase the perfect the enemy of the good before And i think that that's true for a lot of us. It's i think that's something which would which we all face when when you look at that blank sheet of paper like this. This has to be the best idea ever had. I can't i can't keep going. You know like no actually. Just get something down to get started. So i work in the classical world and i'm not super tech tech oriented bought these days with video getting a one camera A video of a song of yours. That's that's played at some Getting up there getting it on on youtube important because then you you can then that becomes a demo the even share with anybody in the world you know in my field. The gold standard is to go into the recording studio. Have off for eight. Ten twelve classically trained musicians record your your Get it exactly right with lots of post production editing. Mastering because There's so much. Subtlety in such a special specialized thing. If that's way too expensive from Professor you know so. I have a lot of music which i hadn't worked worked on for months and months. What i have available publicly is a live performance. That may not be perfect or a have a or live performance. That might be all the notes might be there. But it's not the best interpretation right so almost nothing. That i have i. Have i have some studio recordings right in the a lot of time in work in energy and effort and money but i think as artists we want to share work and you know getting it out there. Good enough is is great. Yeah good enough is great and i think that's something that tripped me up for. A long time was thinking. I had to have all the right equipment and have a certain sound quality to even start sharing on Yeah i don't think that's true. I think we just really if we're drawn to doing the work and share the work. We just need to start where we're at and yeah there's no reason we can't grow forward and And you know get get a new microphone or get a you know. Hire a sound specialist for a certain event or something like that but growing forward and just Yeah faithfully stepping forward in what we are able to do when we can do it. That's good if people can tell whether something is. I mean really can tell the difference between the ninety percent and one hundred percents And i have a number of my teachers have one made might former teachers know. These are world class composers and most of their catalog hasn't been recorded in the studio. You know is lot lot less time to write a piece of music. Premiered book the studio time master of it again. It's like creating is the fun part capturing it is the necessary evil. I think now not a rock guy who goes into student again that live in the studio. That's not how i operate but by just reading musician out there is that you got to get video these days like video of a video of you. Doing your thing is even if it doesn't sound fantastic. I think is better than the perfect studio audio because we all were visual. You know we wanna see you. These days i have attended i if i'm gonna have a budget or project Video even though the audio might it might. I might not be quite so much post production. Editing that's really. That's a good point. I think that's that's something important for all the musicians out there but you know even those that are you know as podcast host. We try to capture the video and put those on youtube We are. We are a very visual culture. And i think that's a good thing to keep in mind. I definitely don't focus on video in any of my music work but when we record my church for different projects that we're you know they're really good to do the video and those are you know i think about it. Those are the videos that are engaged with the moa. Those are the those of the songs that are engaged with the most of that. That's a good reminder or good thing to consider when we're actually creating and Yan oh boy. Has technology made it easy for us to capture things Just even you know. Our hand held like our little device. We can hit record and capture a decent Audio but some of the some of the cameras on these little hint held phones are getting pretty amazing too so yeah good point okay. You're a busy guy. And i know you said you write a lot of your own work in the summertime. But what does it take for you to prioritize your creative time When life gets crazy busy you do have to for me. I have very intentional. And that means that I am i to do lists. I have two categories. I have the creative work and everything else and that that everything else category includes like a errands. I need to run and sending my kid for camp as well as like. Make the final exam from a class or go to this la but for me i have to have a completely separate category for for the creative work so i look on my on my to do list organized by like a by a certain number of for how long projects will take attendant category in a thirty minute category in ireland category but in the creating area at any time his as you know you never know how long it's gonna take he s. Unfortunately you can't say oh it's all this music in like five hours. No problem might work. It might take ten minutes. It might take twenty hours. So when i when i have a project in this could be. This could be an article. I'm writing or could be a piece of music writing when it's a project that i'm really investing my full skills in trying to create something i will. I have set up side the hours this afternoon in that all. I'm going to do like i. Don't i don't keep email open. I don't do attend anything else. And that means that. Do everything else either. Before or after. And i just set up set aside this time because they know you know you need not just the time but the mental space. You need to follow those leads and you default it dead ends right and not get like to finish this. I hate working deadlines. And what that means that i start. Projects really really far advanced the deadline. So i can spend a week Week throw out. Because when i wrote this crap. I think if you're not willing to do that you're not going to do. Good work I'm not sure there isn't as with you or not. But i just i. I am really motivated by deadlines. But i think that's really wise to approach those. Well like to give yourself creative space to walk forward toward that deadline and not feel pressured to just throw something out there to give the creative workspace. Oh i'm such a procrastinator though. But i love what you said about like this exactly how. I've got to do it. I've almost got to look at my calendar and go okay this day. I have a three hour chunk that none of the other two dues in life need to happen. I'm gonna. I'm gonna capture that time devoted to microwave work and i love those times. Inevitably i approach that time. That three hours. And i'll dig into one project you know or i'll just kind of work on this really quick. It is amazing. How quickly about three hours goes by and sometimes sad. But i trust that the work that i get done in that this time set aside is the work that needed to get done or that. The fruit from that again maybe and planting seeds where the fruit will bear overtime. So yeah awesome. I think that though couple minds of about that because first of all do if for me that creative stuff it's the most engaging but it's also hardest and i will if there's any everything else is more timely than that like there's always deadline is always something you can do for ten more minutes. It has to be done instead of being creative right. So that's why i. If i probably rights safe i get to never gonna get to it because it's so easy to put it off because it's hard right and it's not productive initially right or you can't guarantee it but i know i have. I call that guy that's getting get off the to do list rate Doesn't work that way creatively. I don't think you'll actually. I actually think this intern up. Mike the creative time as a satisfy and what i mean is not that it's a time of rest but you know look at the savages. You know do no work like a very surf strength like okay. Don't you know some communities. Don't don't use electric lights. Don't do any work. But really i think the savage is meant to a moment for us to reflect It stands as a gift to us from god to help make us aware that that there's a different way to conceive of time and of work. And what i mean by this. Is that when we are when. We're ready when i'm writing music for three hours and that's all i'm doing. I'm no longer beholden to to this. I'm no longer behold into. You must supposed to accomplish this by this time. it's so the district kronos and cairo strike cairo's being god's time and kronos being the time of the world the rest our lives cronos. We do this. Attendance in this lasers causing effect. It's the way that works is the machine. That's fine but cairo's this god's time is when we lived in this alternate reality where we're we're exploring way of being in the world of experienced the time of experiencing would say work like production right just in the world which we don't have that we're not governed by the ticking of the clock or by a really clear one to one cause-effect open ourselves up to the leading of the spirit and that is refreshed Right this appears us to go back into the machine on on monday. So i mean i'm not saying that like i spend all sunday writing music. No that's hard work. And i'm tired but i think that one of another way that artists can contribute to an understanding of faith for christians is our willingness to turn off the world and all of its simple expectations. If this than this and say you know for this time in my life. I'm going to be opened a possibility on we open to your word. I'm gonna model that. There's another way being a human controlled by the cysts. That just lives in god's love and hope in life if if that makes and after romantic here but it's like i really like when i go to right. I feel like i feel relaxed. I can put aside all of the everyday part of life. And i could just sorta stretch out in this way that the rest of the world doesn't let me and i think that's what the sabah's about actually reminding us that the rule doesn't have to be get it done or else. Yeah that's a beautiful way to to look at our creative time. Is you know especially as as christian creatives. We were created by the creator. I love saying we were created by the creator to create in creative ways like we. We were each gifted this this beautiful way that god expresses our faith through us and when we enter into that work. It's it's bringing him. Glory and what a beautiful way to approach our time in our creative work is is in communion with the lord himself in response to what he's given us sabbath absolutely. I think that is when i sit down. And i you know thinking as you were talking. I was like okay. Last time i sat down and took the time in kind of put the rest of the world. Wait we were at a remote cabin over spring break. And i didn't have my internet. And i pray god. It was awesome for a week. i'd had no internet. It was awesome. And i almost feel the weight of the the other the world peel away and i. I was almost given this freedom. This head space to actually interact with the songs that i wanted to be writing for the season ahead And it was beautiful. i it just. It felt completely different. And anytime we're out there in the wilds of alaska. I feel like those are our sabbath moments in general but engaging with my creative work in the midst of that it was truly a rich sabbath experience. Absolutely it's like when you go to church like. What are you accomplishing. Church accomplishing anything. Like you're not gonna make god love you more. And i suppose if you're a certain kind of catholic you have to have communion but really illogically worship is. It's a it's a opportunity where she's at work. It's an opportunity to god. Gives us to worship god right and but it's not like we. If we do it right we get into heaven or something you know so even though active going to church it's not like always super relaxing and go to church. You know it's not like line at the beach. It's not work but it's another way of engaging with the world of being a human that doesn't have a clear goal or doesn't have a goal where you're get which put it like most of the world is operatives grace free economy rave you deserve and what is what is christianity offering apart from you. Don't just right and you can see the entrance of salvation which Free the freedom you know of of knowing that the that the created world is one that does have life and death and consequences and the kingdom of heaven is a one where that's all flipped around. You know where we if we live. Like jesus one. We wouldn't care about what we wore. 'cause we think we're like the lilies right or we be aware that you know that's getting Really living far. We've got a camel going to die the needle. This is a radical reimagining. All the things of the world tells us a christian just like releases us format. I think sunday releases network church release and i think that the artistic practice releases As well and that's why. I think that there's a real difference between An artist and so at a craftsperson. And i am not judging craftsperson but if you write a him. Part of your job is to write a piece of music that make something. Happen that helps. It's got a real goal day. I'm not judging that but writing a piece of music for violent right. That actually doesn't have a goal right. It's not meant to be like you can't tell whether it was successful or not in any way. I don't wanna make too big a distance a distinction here. But i think the irish music for church. I do a lot of music. It's intended to do something. And that's great but i think it's really important to in artistic practices to make sure there are parts of those where we are really creating the joy of creation to zolt in that gift and let go of the pressure of it doing something beyond just being and we wanted to be good right. But that's different that's its identity. Not its purpose. yeah that's so. Good and i appreciate that especially as i've considered stepping away from creating as much instrumental music as i do. I write primarily for my church. But i love creating instrumental music and I've that's a huge encouragement to me. Delta keep going on that because It is there's such joy in just writing something that expresses something that almost words can't For me and i think there's that joy i don't wanna. I don't wanna lose that joy of being able to do that. So thank you for the encouragement. Appreciate it. it's a lot of professionals myself included or endanger forgetting that joke that that kind of joy and the other word that comes to mind for me. It's play like sometimes you're teaching your kid the shapes and some as you're teaching them like the letter h sounds like when you just play barbies with them You're doing more cooperative. More teaching right. But there's no gold play. You're just doing it. You know and i think that we oftentimes. We need to remember creatives that creating is play because it it. It's a timer. We enjoy an salt in the opportunity to mold and paint and and sing without worrying about what we're trying to accomplish and that super hard for professional who might be reading a piece with a deadline and on commission right so we you know we are creating a sort of a product. But i think we have to remember at every step of the way that if we're not doing it within the context of of of this radical openness to to to the reading of god and took a hearing god's word we're not really being inspired inspired us means being briefed into right. I mean god inspired atom by blowing air into the clay you know and we i just think if we if we no matter what kind of project were involved in even if it's one with a strict deadline fee as artists for living artists we have to bracket that and say yeah that that's the world but that's not the totality worlds right the Active creation is that moment. I need to feel. You'll gods god's breath basically i think yeah amen also yeah absolutely. Okay dal are. Do you have any current projects that you're really excited about. I do I just finished writing a musical setting almost a miniature opera. Based upon leaving around the sacrifice of isaac story which is a really powerful member abraham gone and episodes about twenty minutes long. And it's sort of like a miniature operatic performance right now. I'm setting up a performance of in in spring of twenty one. No string of twenty two. I guess would be in lent so we can present it and talk about questions of sacrifice in faith. It's tough story. Yeah tough story in. It's a problematic story. I think for christians and so. I'm working with some folks up at gordon college christian college north of boston on on making an event where we present this piece and have a discussion about the issues. That excites me. That is so exciting. So that's next spring recording this in april of twenty twenty one right now so i can't wait to hear how that goes good for you. Peace two years ago and it's just because of the pandemic it's just sitting there on on know printed out ready to go into not living so i wish there was a painter. I could pay my thing and see my is a piece of paper with dawson. Lines on them. I mean this isn't very good. You know. I have to hit actually do something so excited about finally and that's also being in artists like sometimes these things. Just sit and wait for the right viewer or listener are paternity and we can't control that. Yeah well that is super exciting. And i think that's a good reminder that all the dots on my papers. If i don't do something with them they're they're never going to be shared. So that's that's but that's the to to trust the timing of it too and oh that will be beautiful for lent Good for you. I can't wait to hear more about that next spring. And then at the end of this episode. We are going to tack on a song of yours. Can you tell us a little bit about the song that everyone will here today. So i believe we talked about this essentially a short piece of music. I wrote for soprano and piano about maybe two minutes long and it is a musical setting of a home by By the put Rilke who if you don't know wonderful. German poet and much of his work is highly spiritual and sacred about god and. This is a a a poem translated english. That really moved me spiritually and i set it to music for basically sounds an opera singer and pianist and it is again. Music is posted to bring to life. The emotional and spiritual dimensions of the poem and i can probably recited from memory. That's really short but it's it's beautiful. It's i live my life in widening rings that spread out to cover everything i mean. I may not complete the last one. But i'll surely try. I'm circling around. God in the remember the rest. Remember the rest of god. That's the best part of the sankei member so heavily your listeners. Listen to it. Yeah oh. I'm it ends with isaiah. I don't yet know if i'm a falcon falcon or storm. So it's really amazing spiritual on. I haven't done just hope that the musical bring those words to life very cool. Yeah everybody can look forward to listening in on the end here to enjoy that. And then how can our listeners. Connect with you. I'm how can people get involved in what you're doing and learn from you So my writing and my music. Everything's on my website. It's case dot com he. Lv wyan case dot com and from there folks can Can you read my writing and listening to music but also you can visit a you can get connected with day of sex music and all the projects we have there. We have a podcast video. Series of recording label performing ensemble blog with lots of articles about intersection between music and faith and seattle l. That's all through a website. I guess you'd say wonderful f- okay. Dallas we live to close our episodes By praying and so. I would love to pray for you and what you're doing and then we'll close out with another quick message to everyone but let's Let's pray father. God we thank you for this time. That dylan i could just interact as creative christians Seeking to to bless your kingdom lord through music and to the ministry After people To me to the various ways that you've gifted us and lord i pray specifically for dell in all the work that he's doing At wheaton college there in massachusetts Bless his work as he interacts with his students. And the other faculty bear and lord to this weird pandemic time we just pray not music is able to be shared in whatever way That is possible to know it's been a little tricky this past year we just pray for for the way ahead for dell in his live events and all the things i'm sure he would love to do lord that would be made possible And thank you for the work that he's doing With the musical bible studies there such a blessing. And i am so pleased that i got to experience that firsthand. Am i pray for other opportunities to do that. As it was a huge blessing A wonderful perspective shift for me personally to lord and i just thank you for his faithful obedience forward in that ministry lord We pray for the projects coming up in dealt work For the lint project for next spring We thank you for his wisdom and his encouragement. Today we just we again this time And we pray lord above all that our work. The work of our hands would be a reflection of your love. Your majesty your beauty your grace that we can live differently As lights in this world lord tear glory. We pray this in. Jesus name amen dow. Is there a message of encouragement that you would love to leave everyone with today. I'm not usually. I don't usually preach with words usually music the world's beautiful place even it doesn't seem like a lot of time and the arts help us remember that. Yeah amen and everyone stick around. You'll get to hear the song the dell composed on. We look forward to that topic you for being here today. With us here on creatively christian and yeah we'll we'll link all of that good ways to connect with you in our show notes. Everyone check that out and yes stay tuned for opportunities To i would love to see some of our listeners. On one at the future musical bible studies. I 'cause i can't wait to do one of those again too. So dow thanks again and we'll be in touch Thank you so much for listening today. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you'd like to find out more about the resources and links that were mentioned you can head over to our webpage. At the often media dot com forward slash case rate of christian is a product of the offering me. You can find out more at the often. Media dot com. This show is hosted by brandon. Huffman's word andrea sandifer. Bill brooks and lynn babe. Our logo is by bill brooks. Our music is by bill brooks and andrea sandifer. And remember if you enjoy this. Be sure to rate review in share wherever you listen to. Podcasts have a blessed and keep on creating for our local.

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Episode 243: Organizing the Grassroots - Sheila Katz, Danya Ruttenberg

Judaism Unbound

51:03 min | 10 months ago

Episode 243: Organizing the Grassroots - Sheila Katz, Danya Ruttenberg

"Support for this episode of Judaism unbound comes from the Osman Family JCC in Palo Alto California whose vision is to be the architects of the Jewish future. The Schmidt Family JCC's is an incubator for new expressions of Jewish identity. It creates innovative learning celebrations, arts programs that inspire personal connections to people and ideas from across the Jewish world learn more at www dot palo alto JCC dot org. This Judaism unbound episode two, hundred, forty, three, organizing the grass roots. Welcome back everyone I'm Dan Lebron, and I'm lex referred and today as we continue our series on feminism and the American. Jewish community, we are thrilled to welcome to leaders of the National Council of Jewish women the National Council of Jewish women or J. W., is the oldest Jewish women's grassroots organization in the United. States that was founded in eighteen, ninety three and J. W works to improve the lives of the most vulnerable women, families and children in the United States and Israel it's a grassroots, organization volunteers and advocates. Who Turn Progressive Ideals into action our guest today are Sheila cats and done rutten Berg Sheila cats is the CEO of the National Council of Jewish Women Prior to coming to NC. J. W. Sheila cats served as the vice president for student engagement and leadership at Hillel International during her time at Hillel international she led numerous programs including Co founding and directing ask big questions which helps guide students through conversations to help them understand themselves and others, and she also spearheaded midst vote hills, nonpartisan civic engagement campaign that helped one. Thousand Nine thousand students registered a vote or request absentee ballots leading up to the two thousand eighteen midterm elections in two thousand Nineteen Sheila cats was named one of the fifty most influential Jews in the United States by the forward newspaper. Donya Rottenberg serves as scholar in residence at the National Council of Jewish women, and she is also an award winning author and writer her books include a memoir surprised by God how I learned to stop worrying and love religion as well as the passionate Torah Torah sex in Judaism. And gentles revenge the next wave of Jewish feminism for which she served as editor. Her most recent book is called nurture the While finding spirituality in the frustration boredom tears poop desperation wonder and radical amazement of parenting currently working on a book applying the ancient framework of repentance and repair to the Contemporary Public Square institutions and National Policy Don your Edinburgh also worked in the past at Hilo. International as well as hills at Tufts University and Northwestern University, she was also a leader in the big questions project as well as. An organization dedicated to creating leaders for economic, Justice Down Your Edinburgh has been listed on all the lists of influential important rabbis including the daily beast ten rabbis to watch and the forwards top fifty most influential women rabbis in our world of online. Judaism. She's a famous twitter celebrity tweeting. At the R. A. D. R. She has Rabbinical Ordination from the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies Sheila Cats Daniel Berg welcome to Judaism unbounded. So great to you. So break beer. Well when we launched this series of a few weeks ago, it happened to be an I should admit, I, guess, it wasn't fully intentional. It just was was good timing that it happened to be the one hundredth anniversary of the adoption of the nineteenth amendment that gave the right to vote to women in nineteen twenty and I was looking around at. The NC J. W website and NC J. W was founded in eighteen ninety three. So about twenty seven years before the nineteenth amendment. So I thought that might be an interesting way to understand why it was created in the first place. Was it driven by the beginnings of the Women's suffrage movement or were there other factors that led to its being founded? I'm happy to take this on and I'll also just comment that it's been a hundred years since white women have had the right to vote in this country with several decades later before a black women and other people of Color who are women were able to have that same rights of NCW, founding at you know is actually A. Great and challenging story wrapped one. The short version is that we were invited to present at the Chicago world's fair that year lots of Chicago people on this, which is exciting on and and we were the only Jewish who had been invited present. It's not a world's fair. The way you know people think of fares now more like an aspen ideas festival and and when Hannah g Solomon are under arrived she and the Jewish woman she were with were asked to pour coffee instead. So she said, no, thank you laughed, and with those women, they form the National Council of Jewish women to make sure that Jewish women had a seat at the table to advocate for the things that matter to them. What's interesting now you know over one, hundred, twenty, five years later is most of our issues are the same which I think is both exciting and challenging. It's exciting because we've seen how much progress there's been on some of these issues voting being one of them, and yet here we are still talking about voter suppression today, and here we are still talking about voter suppression relates to the most vulnerable, particularly the black community lower income individuals and people with disabilities and we're. Still. Obviously, focusing on the issue of abortion reproductive health rights and justice. You're a part of the entire journey to make sure that people had access to abortions and fought for Roe v Wade were actually at probably one of the most who've been moments for reproductive health rights injustice at this country has ever had and it's going to potentially be a moment where those rights are reversed and so I think there's so much to celebrate just like the nineteenth amendment about how far we've come and there's just a lot more work to do to make sure we can fully see through the unfinished work of the Nineteenth Amendment and women and all people having equal access and equal protection under the law. I'll just make a note that from the National Council of Jewish would we use the term women? It's an expansive term to include anyone who identifies with the term, which is this woman trans translated. Fan. Feminine identifying. Gender. Queer. Non Binary. Folks suggest throughout are talking about this today I just know that that is our current definition as were thinking about just gender generally and the term woman. I'm a particularly in our issue of abortion rights transplant need abortions too. So you'll hear us. We refer to this as a right for people who can become pregnant. I'm rather than just making it about women but I do think we need more people to come to the table. The fact is it has been a lonely place for us we working on the issue of abortion and there's a lot of Jewish organizations who take on advocacy work don't see this as there's and don't see this as there. Is because those organizations have been run by men forever and ever and ever one of the things I'd like to see his shift in the Jewish world to take on the issues that disproportionately impact women and see those Jewish values and Jewish issues as well. So it's not as isolate and we need to make sure that every single day were fighting for the rights of women, children and families in this country. I'm constantly obsessed with names of since with titles of things. and. I ask a lot of organizations that come on the show to talk about their names because I think there's often much more there than we realize a few things strike me about the National Council of Jewish women one it's above and not four, and that's actually really not every organization that Senator's on a group of people thinks of itself as of that group of people as opposed to four, there's A. There's kind of a I was about I was about to say paternalism. It wouldn't be paternalism for a women's organization but there's like a maternal is and there's a parental instinct in defining yourself as we are in an organization for this group of people that I think can be off putting those people themselves because you want to be shaping the change you want to be as a Jewish woman I mean I don't. WanNa speak as as a Jewish person. I want to be a part of a a Jewish organization that is, of Jews, not forges. Right. So that's a cool thing already then there's the piece that sort of has started to come up about how we define what women are, and then beyond that there's what what makes this Jewish, what like what is it to have Jewish interests at heart an organization? What what? Does that lead organization to do an act and manifest in the world and maybe that brings me to you don yeah. As the scholar in residence, talk us through how you understand that Jewish peace here too because it's not as simple as you know we this organization are finding texts in Jewish sources that you know we can tied to some I mean that's also a cool thing to do but like how does How does your approach along the lines of sort of what makes issue Jewish work and what does that look like when it's actualized by US staffed by your leaders by your whole group of not for women? I think that of is really important and cdw from the very beginning with an organization of Jewish women doing work for women, children, and families. For everyone right they were arguing in Nineteen Oh eight for an anti lynching laws right for federal anti lynching laws they were. Birth control clinics in the nineteen forties that eventually got rolled into planned parenthood. Right. The work has been for everybody all along. And the understanding and the values underpinning all along have been that we as Jews understand that we have an obligation to work for our own people. The first wave event cdw work was in part a more established German Jews working with. Jewish immigrants and that but they were also child labor laws impacted people across the spectrum. Establishing meals on wheels programs impacted people across the spectrum. She talked about the establishment, of NCW. And the piece of the story that she didn't tell is that when Jewish woman realized that We were going to be expected to be pouring coffee at the world's fair. You know going to have our own conference instead and so the Jewish Women's conference then became NC jail but I have those papers from that first conference in eighteen ninety three and you have ray frank who's known as girl rabbi of the Golden West and his whole person to. To understand talking about the Torah of this work you have people talking about labor laws and Judaism people understood from then and all the way through till. Now, our work as Jews in some ways, it's through the Jewish legal tradition. In some ways, it's through Jewish values more Bradley expressed that our job is to work for a more just world for everyone. We bring. Jewish. Lens that when we talk about reproductive rights health and justice, we're talking about the fact that. The Torah, the mission of the Toma Jewish laws is abortion is absolutely permitted sometimes required. So, from our perspective, abortion rights are non-negotiable and we bring a reproductive justice. Lens, which is a reproductive justice is a movement that was started by blackened indigenous women to say we need to focus on. Not. Just abortion access but the whole experience of our rights to be free from your. And sterilization. Mass incarceration and unjust policing it all of these things and in the space and C. J. W. is both. Animated by Jewish values and Jewish texts that that really provide the the rocket fuel to the work, and also the understanding that we are doing this work in the world and in broader coalition with other people who now in this moment are sometimes even more impacted. By unjust laws than we are so. WHO. Regretted access is a is a Jewish issue and it's an everybody issue, and in some ways, Jews need to Jews wages in particular need to be allies. In this work and in some ways we need to be leading because it's An issue of. Freedom of religion also. Kicking a Christian definition of when life begins and turning that into legislation and telling Jews that they can't have abortions is a religious freedom issue and simultaneously communities of color particularly black communities low and communities are disproportionally impacted by abortion restriction. So One issue but sort of shows the approach. I thinking about this new position that was established that you're that you're now the first person to be occupying, which is a scholar in residence for. Like this and I'm just thinking about the vast number of Jewish organizations that don't have a scholar in residence and just started thinking about. How we could talk about the work in this case of N.. C. J., W.. But I think also more broadly the work of all Jewish organizations that might be classified. Grossly you know that other people I wouldn't classify this this but other people classify them as quote secular right that they're not. They're not a synagogue. Jewish religious practice and nevertheless and so I think that a lot of times at least in history up till recently, those organizations have. Been Thought of and thought themselves as we're a bunch of Jews that are doing stuff together and we care that we're Jewish but the content of Jewishness isn't really what's animating here. So what's animating us here is you know American values or whatever it might be and not that we're going to whip out Jewish text or that we're going to really talk about how everything that we do is coming out of the Jewish. Tradition and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you hope to bring like how NC J. WS work might change as a result of whatever you're GonNa do there and she lied left to hear from you as well because obviously you created the position. So what was the what was the aspiration betty from both of you I'm really wondering how you imagine that the work of an organization like this might change. Bringing on somebody whose work is really deep in the substance of Judaism of Jewish civilization Jewish texts, Jewish tradition, etc.. And CDW WHO's done extraordinary work for a long time. And I'm excited to help the organization move to the next level in taking that Jay seriously and having it means something. Being really thoughtful about how larger-term justice goals some of the strategic plans some of the work we're doing to help move the wider Jewish community can have Jewish DNA. That it's not going to be about developing a plan and then sprinkling some Jewish text over the top. As we see a lot in the Jewish community, but really the wisdom of the tradition. Different Jewish methodologies and approaches and ways of thinking how can that. Be Be informing what we're doing and and how do we offer. Work that is really substantial on that level both for the two, hundred thousand plus advocates that we have on the ground who are doing this work in the trenches, and also as we work with the wider Jewish community, we want to create a a sea change in the thinking and in the work and in in order to have the kind of impact we need to have it needs to be substantial and grounded. And I know ad I look for every all excuse to work with. Donya. Always. Um Super. Exciting at I think there's several things here I'm done. You just hit so many of them, but also as at the oldest Jewish women's organization. In this country, we have a pattern of doing phenomenal work and not taking credit for it, which is very gendered. We helped found planned parenthood. We were the only NGO at Ellis Island making sure women and children weren't being traffic and then as. Israel was founded went there to help children who are Holocaust survivor is able to acclimate. To Israel. We have a long story of success legislatively of success on the grounds of compassionate response and and so while we do focus on some of those things in the past, we also want to make sure we're doing that work right now we tell the story because part of being a feminist today. Worked towards equality for everyone also means being able to say loudly an Oudlay when we've accomplished something and so don is GonNa help your storyteller things as well and as far as the Jewish part does it's so important because we see a lot of Jewish organizations but the light touch, it's not what NC GW advocates are looking for and to be honest it's not how you move legislation and action in this country people want to have a deep understanding they might not want to like look at. A tech sheet that's all Hebrew all the time, but they weren't able to understand deeply what our tradition says about this, and they wanna hear about that in a feminist interpretation not which is not always the interpretation that people receive. So abortion is really the best example of this for a long time we've said, we believe in the inherent worth every person you know, etc etc name, every Jewish value that every Jewish organization has. But when we do our advocacy, it is important that our tradition goes deeper. Our tradition actually defines what these things look like can actually permits abortion and being able to zoom into that text being able to teach people that tax allowance asked to deploy people out into the world more thoughtful and educated and smart and care about being Jewish to be able to say that the public narrative that exists that abortion and faith don't go together cannot be said in our name it's actually text that is being misinterpreted since dining has been here. We've launched our rabbis for Reprogram in which now has thousand rabbis signed on from kind of backgrounds, of Judaism, from every kind of background generally with signed on to say, this is a Jewish issue there's pastoral care we need to do to. Make sure you know including abortion as one of the many things we talk about people in our communities and we're are going to say loudly and proudly it abortionist permitted in Julius I'm and to me that is that is not only that it can transform the Jewish world because people should be able to hear the word one in four people under. Forty five have an abortion people who can get pregnant and that's a large statistics in ever hear anybody talk about it ever on. But to this has the potential power to transform the national conversation about abortion and so I'm just so proud that we have our first ever scholar in residence and that it's done. Yeah and just just have to say this. Many many organizations have scholars in residence and many many of those organizations have traditionally only hired men and it is rare to see women's organizations in this because it's rare to see women have the privilege to be able to have a job in which they get to think talk and preach an act based off of their values and who they are instinct with their organizations. So I am super proud that NCW gets to have first scholar in residence and I would encourage other Jewish organizations that are considering people for roles like that. Also pay attention to how many men have been sorted roles like that, and how many women are being asked to do that work for free. I love that you started your answer Sheila with I look for every excuse to work with Donna ever. At that I believe is the direct quote and I actually want to I want to go. I. Know that was just like a you meant it clearly sincerely, but but it also could have been like a a quick comment I actually want to go there because. An in the spirit of like Jewish texts and traditions, I'm thinking of a particular text from pure Cav, vote which actually says in two bullet points, you've covered two bullet points at once it says Usseileh Rav Roughly make for yourself a rabbi that's literally Daniel Rabbi here we are hiring rabbi. and. The next clause is Cannella cover. This era fine for yourself. It's kind of acquire for yourself which I don't love but like fine for yourself a front. It is clear to me Cards I've known she live no new for many years on I. Haven't known you as well, but we've been in touch during his like. As somebody like observing both of you flourishing in the Jewish world like there are many ways that I've thought of you linked to each other and I think that's such a cool thing you did work together with aspect questions and with Hill and now with National Council of Jewish women and I, I want to ask like what is it to have somebody that can play that role with you? That can be your comrade-in-arms in in the work that you do. It's a very special thing and honestly I've been reflecting on this too because we're five years into this podcast and like lots of people we've interviewed they started at one organization and they're. Not at the same organization anymore or they're maybe they're not even working directly in the Jewish world anymore. But they're like we're still deeply in touch with them and like these are people you know no matter where we're working no matter what we're doing like we're going to be in the works together and I think that there's such power there in a world that defines our lives so much in terms of like where we're working and not working with I'd love to just ask the two of you since you worked with each other in multiple context like what's the power there? What is that for you to have each other in this work? Was a visionary, a force of nature both. And it's been so fun over the years to get to dream and scheme with her and to make stuff happen. Sheila isn't limited by the fact that something hasn't been done before or it is a wild and outlandish idea and she's able to pull it off and friendship has evolved over the years as well as working relationship At Hill people would say, well, what exactly is your role at Hillel International? I am she look his pet rabbi That's my job. Totally, happy to be. It was so fun. You Know Lou, the interplay of her. Big Wild thinking in my big wild thinking and what she thought was a good idea what I thought was a good idea and what I thought was fun to do just meshed and. When she went to and cdw, and we started talking about the this is a possibility it was just like. You're somebody that I lake and trust in no that I enjoy working with and. You know we have real conversations about Neil things that matter it would be. It would be an absolute pleasure if it worked out and. Related has. Danica is my rabbi and she is my friends and it is such a beautiful quote and think about this in our tradition and I think it's important that we have people. Who We look to to be able to guide us on our personal spiritual path and to be able to guide our organizations live up to the values that we have many organizations claimed Jewish values, and then you see how they treat people whether how leaving the Organization of their family leave policy whatever it may be important of somebody who can help push to make sure you say and what you do are aligned and Daniel does not from a really loving place but will still tell you if you got to do something better, which is important. And as a friend like it's just so important have people who can also just talk with about things outside of work and the lines are learned learned for activists because we live this work Mrs. Our life. He's our hobbies to my staff right here. When asked what they do in their spare time? They're like volunteering at a domestic violence shelter they're teaching kids something they're doing whatever it is and I'm like, oh, he's no, that's that's worked too but I'm glad you consider that your personal fun time I'm and I'll just say without going into any details. When I was at a particular low point in my life I was sitting with Donya was telling her how hard it was, and she literally took my phone and on WHATSAPP created a group called team Sheila. Instead name your five closest people that you talk to you about this moment I shared my five people she invited them to come, and she rarely said this Donya on texting you from Sheila Zone Mrs. Now team she lied we're going to offer her support. And like doing that really really helped me get through a difficult stays in my life and having a friends who saw, Oh, you could use some support and I'm just GonNa create a text group so that you get what you need a you can't replace that. So for me, you know I've got a lot of great I mean everyone who works at NC J. W. is extraordinary. I hope you all of them on the show at some point of that would be many many. Many episodes but if is really really an amazing thing to have a work environment or you trust and respect the people around you and I think a lot of Jewish organizations say they have that mean they necessarily do and by Donya being added to the team here noxious for me. It's so clear how quickly she's able to become friends and rabbis for the people who are here I think it's a unique and wonderful skill that she brings in a make our entire organization stronger. I WANNA. Try to bring a few ideas together. One is that I'm thinking about Ruth Bader Ginsburg and that time that she was asked when will there be enough women on the Supreme Court and she said when there are nine you know and when she was asked about I, think people interpret what she meant by that. It's just that. Well, there were only were nine men for two hundred years, and so there's no problem in there being nine women for a while but I think you can take that somewhere else and say actually a supreme court that had nine. Women on it would be very different from a supreme court that had nine men or six men, and the question is how do we think about that and that actually was making me think about how the tour reading on the second day of Russia Russia's as the binding of Isaac Story and I was talking about we were doing a project about and I was talking about someone at some point and I don't remember exactly the conversation, but a woman would be very unlikely to have ever written this story in the first place like this is a horrible story about. Sacrificing your child, it's hard to imagine a woman writing that story and those things together kind of bring me to this question of kind of that I think of as a question of universal design, which is really this question of universal design and architecture is like what if the people with disabilities actually the building from the beginning you know it wouldn't just have a ramp it would have so many things that you know a lot of people can't even imagine, but but ultimately, it would be very highly accessible more so than. Than it could easily be imagined and one of the other pieces that when we talk about universal design in the world of disability is that people talk about how it turns out that when you design a building to be accessible to people who are in a wheelchair for example, it turns out that it's also perfectly accessible for strollers strollers pushed by women, and so you've actually made a building that is accessible to women even though that wasn't really your intent and I guess I'm wondering how we might take some of these ideas and. Bring them into the context of an organization of and for women in all of the things that we talked about of the four, but they really say. Of course, we all want there to be equality and accessibility for women but I want more than that. You know I want a world in which women are organizing everything everything because I think it would be a better world. What would it look like to have a movement towards remaking all of the institutions if our society basically in a way that would probably be more humane. I want to distinguish between women and feminist for the purposes of this. You. Dan. You mentioned that we read the binding of Isaac at Russia Shanna. We also at Oceana read the story of Sarah. The matriarch kicking out. The woman who was enslaved to her because Sarah was jealous. That and concern that child who are was forced to conceive because she was in slave. Might inherit some of the family money. We see women throughout history. Do things that are not. Inherently feminist right. Women were complicit in the Holocaust women were complicit in the antebellum south and slavery rape. As we're recording this. There is a woman who has been nominated to the Supreme Court who is not a friend to women or women's rights or reproductive. Health. Access and safety for women and non. Binary folks in Trans men and lots of other people. The fact that someone happens to be female does not mean that that person is not aligned with patriarchy. And or aligned with other kinds of oppressions. I always understood when there are nine people who care about women's rights and justice. Notably Justice Ginsburg war that. People know this shoes obviously famous for her colors and she had one that had the word Sediq embroidered on it justice reminiscence of the Torah Verse Justice Justice You shall pursue, which is about a fair and independent judiciary and she wore this caller on the first day of the arguments about whether or not lgbtq people should be covered under sex discrimination law. The understanding was not just that we're helping women in this very narrow way. But that justice means that we're fighting for all people of all genders and backgrounds and it's her record on voting rights. She was she was in it for everyone. When you have a feminist lands. That's clear. Feminism is and should be an inherently liber Tori. Framework? And the white feminists have gotten this wrong many times throughout history it should be about liberation for everyone. I don't think just putting someone who is a woman in a place of power is the way to magically change oppressive systems but bringing a feminist lens to a work and saying who is most vulnerable here. Who needs our help and support and care and protection, and that's when bringing feminist lens can. Transform. The work and yes, the Jewish community would be much better if we could bring that lends to everything we do. Dana. Since the beginning of this podcast have been wrestling with I mean we've got a few questions but one of the core questions is theories of change like how given that we have a bunch of goals for the future of Judaism were we being us as the two of us but also we like speaking progressive Jews like given that we have a bunch of goals for the Jewish future and for the world's future, how do we go about that and we've talked you know over and over again from our very beginnings about like from our perspective one of the most important projects is not only working from the place of centralized national. Organizations with beautiful legacies. It's also about setting up stuff specifically, that is not those organizations and so. I I WANNA talk to Y'all as sort of from my perspective comrades that are going about this work very differently. Right like. You are part of a organization with one, hundred and thirty. One hundred twenty seven years of history both of you have done powerful amazing work from the place specifically of large national bodies and I'm curious like on that power building front why is it important for that to be happening? They're like talk to people like me to be frank and others who are often very deeply skeptical. Honestly I feel like my whole generation in many ways a lot of us are skeptical of. Some of large centralized projects, but then I looked to an organization like NCW that is doing amazing work and I honestly I feel pushed on my theory of change what is it to do this work specifically from the place of a national body with a legacy in with power, and also maybe to the extent, you also WanNa voice this like what can those who aren't in those positions bring to the table as well. I'm having to start and just say one of the reasons I was so excited about coming deserve at the helm. This organization is because we're actually grassroots organization when I learned I didn't know this coming in that our constituents at advocates vote on the issues that we take on and they vote on our policies like I'm meeting this organization and I don't. Get to decide that and then I was like this is amazing. I'm so happy about this because it means that the people on the grounds are helping to decide the priorities and issues that we take on. So we're one hundred, eighty, thousand advocates strong and imaginative NC jail happens locally nationally super important. We wrote the First Violence Against Women Act co-authored the second. Violence Against Women Act that were still pushing through. What will we do nationally looks different locally but complements each other. There are certain things if you remove yourself from the national table, you don't get to influence what we have sat as we want to be everywhere, and so it's important for us to have two kinds of ways that we model that intersect with. Each other in order to create change. So so that's one in our local sections to me is where it's at one of the first changes we made is we got rid of membership nationally and when people sign up nationally, we don't ask them for money. We asked him for where they are and their email address and we push them to get up hopefully. So that's important and the second thing I'd say is this, we need everyone to be working their magic in different ways. So you know it is unlike us. I should say unlike us, we purchase all the time. There are certain spaces where we have to show up and be in relationship and being conversation where we're not going to publicly criticize in the same way because we're in the voice needed to be behind the scenes. When we're behind the scenes that doesn't mean, we don't value the voices that are outside and kind of being very loud. We need each other and so I would just say there's a role for the grass roots. There's a role for national organization. There's a role for individuals to organize who are not affiliated with any organization. They often have the most flexibility and power and you'd be happy to be supportive of the work of any person wants to mobilize to make things better for women, children and families, but I don't think we're the only path but I think we're unimportant past that begins in the grass roots and kind of concludes nationally for us to see through vision that has started locally. We need all hands on deck and there's a lot of deck. There are a lot of ways and places that the work needs to be done and C. J.. Is occupying a lot of the spaces on the on the hill in lobbying writing laws working with lawmakers local level. There's also service work that lot of our sections do like really incredible hands on. Direct Service. Things, because we need to be worrying about tomorrow and we need to be worrying about today both right there are. So we need people who are on the outside agitating and we need people inside the meeting who have a certain kind of credibility to try to push for things to change right need all of it. I'm thinking about this connection between you know what lex asked about the large organizations in the startups and I'm thinking about how social media has its ills but it also has its its positives and you're somebody who's got a lot of twitter followers. You know you've done your somebody who's use of twitter as a way of getting your voice out and I'm just curious about your reflections on what that level of the the one person. WHO finds a way of like something like twitter that can amplify your voice and how you think about using that voice versus how you think about using the voice that is you and you're working for a national organization versus thinking about your rating about parenting, for example, which in a sense empowers regular people to kind of operate on the level of the small, the small, right the family, the the small circle of of influence and. Putting all this together and I'm also curious about your thoughts and she'll also your thoughts on like again. I think that clarification about feminism was really helpful to me I think that I'm thinking about what is a world that includes large organizations and startups and individuals look like when it's organized the way that a feminist lens might organize it because I think that a lot of my feelings that the big organizations are never gonNA solve these problems. You know it comes from the non-feminist way that it's organized and I think that I'm probably right within that frame, but I'm curious how A new relationship might look like between large organizations, smaller organizations and individuals are maybe Four realms someone at some point break this down to four I wish I could remember who it was so that I could credit them but. If you think of spheres of influence as yourself, your family, your community and engagement with the larger world. All of these, our realms that need love and attention and care and time where you're focusing on growth. And where there's an extra emphasis and we probably can't do all four at the highest level of focus at all times, it's just it's not possible. We are finite people. And so there are times when people need to do the deep internal work and whether that's healing from trauma, whether that's an I'm speaking as a white person working on the racism or other oppressions that we've internalized that kind of work their time we need to focus on our family on the people who are in our immediate sphere, and so that speaks to my book on parenting. There are times when our immediate community. Needs are focused on times when engagement in the larger world needs our focus. And we have these new strange social squares that are run by private corporations into you know wealthy individuals rich white guys. twitter and facebook and Instagram, and all of these earn some ways these amazing spaces where we can connect and share ideas. The Arab Spring wouldn't have been what it was without twitter black lives matter me to. All of these things is major movements developed in erupted because of social media and our ability to share ideas and connect and. They have real. Limits. In issues in part because they are run by. People who are focused on making money. I think we need to to mine these platforms for the good that they can offer. Well also naming the the limits and pushing for better solutions to problems than. free-flowing disinformation and allowing Nazis to roam freely and all of that. I don't know how much tension there is between the different organizations who all have similar goals but are operating differently I think they're space for everyone and my first day as CEO was. Never again, actions I action or they got arrested at the Ice Detention, center in New Jersey and I remember thinking. You were there that was my former day see. So I remember thinking this is amazing. This is phenomenal. I've never been arrested. I've never wanted to be arrested, but I will get arrested for this and thinking about how phenomenal was at a group of Jews particularly young Jews got together and said, we need to be doing something more and we need to root this in our own way and the way they've taken off in spiring. Also at NC GW one, hundred year history with highest formerly. The Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society had now they just go as highest and I just love their mission and how they also do things because we are Jews, and they help. Me Now and evolved over the years to still remain as relevant as they are today, and the National Council dish women were mixed in this too because we do a lot of work on immigration as it relates to gender based violence and of the majority reason people are seeking to come into our country for asylum is because of gender based violence and the way we received those women and families and children as. A lot about who we are as a country. So I would just say you know the more the Merrier and how inspiring it is to see people step up and take action if if they feel that Ariza void and also just name because it's the Fun History of NC, j w you know I see us as very similar to never again action hundred, hundred, twenty, seven years ago we were the kind of startup. Loud voices making it happen and claiming our space. It's not that we're not that now but we have had the great privilege for what we want out of our organization to grow into a national organization, and now to be a legacy organization, it's truly phenomenal at shows how much the work matters and it shows how many people want to be connected to this war not every startup wants to become a national legacy organization. And that's okay and not every kind of startup organization needs to do that for their mission. But if you look at actually the history of a lot of the legacy organizations, you'll find they actually started in many ways very similarly to a lot of the new organizations that are popping up. So for me, I just have a ton of respect for those kinds of groups I draw inspiration from it and I think it's important. Because, CEO's actually also needs to see what folks around the country are interested in where the lines are and where they're willing to push for me. It was a moment of Oh. Gosh. I. Hadn't even thought of staging protests who are people get arrested her speaking out this way it helped inspire a whole series of things that we did. At NC Jada I'll be oh so those are some of the ways I see all. These things intersecting, and so it's with a lot of love that I say I hope more things pop up. You know NC J. W is a happy to partner with anybody who wants to partner with the legacy organization in also super gets it. If people want to do their own thing I think this is really just about making sure everybody has a path to seek justice and in the way that's most meaningful for them. If you were to think about the landscape of all the issues you're working. So reproductive justice, which of course, links to the courts right now, which links to equity along gender axes more broadly which links to racial justice questions I mean like if you were going to try and distill for us like a couple takeaways for a listener. Should people be walking away from this episode thinking about ready to act on. While hopefully, some of what will share right now is evergreen. Is Work that can be done at any time. The thing I want to say that knowing that this episode is going to drop between now and Election Day. One of the most critical things that everyone can do is to work to get out the vote making sure that you know you're voting plan making sure everyone in your life knows they're voting plan we're in the middle of pandemic and a lot of the people who have served as coal workers are higher risk people because there tend to be older. And so more young people and healthy people in able bodied people who can go volunteer and be on the front lines on election day is fruitful. That's number one. Number two through five thousand are really about figuring out. Where your place on decades. We need all hands on deck and there's a lot of deck. And CDW is deep in the work of courts and reproductive rights. Freedom Justice, and so if you feel moved in those directions, obviously judiciary is. Critical. Right now and In an ongoing way, the people who? Are brought in to serve as judges they are not. Independent and qualified that impacts American law in people's rights and safety and freedom for generations. So those are issues that you're particularly activated on come come. We have we have a lot of work on the ground. We are happy to guide you. You can figure out where the intersection of your passions, your talents, and your capacities are figure out how to go make yourself more useful than you are now because we need. U. Best example I can give a really massive change that happens is actually from a small moment that shouldn't feel so small and Emmett till had been brutally murdered his mother naming till decided in a last minute moves to have her son have an open casket and that picture was than every newspaper across this country and in inspired a woman in Montgomery Alabama who had never been involved at all design up for activists chaining. One hundred days later, exactly. Rosa Parks refused to give up her rights on a boss who's not the story we tell to fourth graders, which was actually planned organized effort, and as a result of that moment, the course of history was changed. It's not actually nick things that tend to get us on path towards justice. It's being the right person in the right moment to do the small thing that could be the tipping point moment, and that means we need everyone to do something, and then somebody's going to be that tipping point person and so you know it can be overwhelming. Obviously, we're in the middle of a pandemic abortion access is able to potentially go away. Before care. ACT, as well. There's so much to be concerned what that could take us into deep despair and if that's where you need to sit. There because it's Ok to the Indus paramus moment and then when you can find something to do whether it's signing up to the escort a planned parenthood clinic whether it's going to a lobbying training. For the first time, we just don't know what the conditions are going to be in who the person is. GonNa be going to transform the next several decades of our country, but it could be you. And you can also email us at action NCW DOT Org. If you're looking for something to do and you're just not sure what it is, we've got things that take a minute. We've got things that take days. We've got things that require no training. We've got things that require advanced training, but we're happy to be a facilitator to help you feel like you're taking action in the snowman and to know. That collectively when we all do that, we really can't change history. Thank you both so much for joining us as a fantastic conversation. Thank you for having us. And thanks so much for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode and we hope you'll tune again in the future we want to close out this episode in the same way that we always do by encouraging you to be in touch with us, and there are a wide variety of ways for to do that I can head to our facebook page Judaism Amoun- second you can hit us up on twitter or instagram also Judaism bound for our handles on those various social media sites that we talked about a little bit earlier. We've got our website Judaism unbound dot com and we also have our email address and Stan at Judaism unbound dot com or Lexus Judaism about dot com. The last of course, we'd like to make that we really deeply appreciate any amount of support. They're able to send our way because you can do via Judaism on dot com slash donate on either a monthly recurring basis more just as a one time gift. So thank you so much for listening in with that has been Judaism about.

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