3 Episode results for "Iris Automation"
649 Detect and Avoid
"This is the airplane geeks. Podcast our aim is to educate and inform you explore and expand your passion for aviation and entertain you little along the way this episode. We talk with the ceo of a company on the forefront of technology to bring detect and avoid capability to unmanned aviation. This is essential for integrating beyond visual line of sight. Unpiloted aircraft into the national airspace system. Welcome to the airplane geeks podcast. This is episode six hundred forty nine of the show where we talk aviation. I'm max flight. This episode is being published during sudden fund. And we'll be deviating from our normal format. What we have is an interview. David vanderhoek i recorded for the uav digest. Now i know there is some audience. Overlap between that podcast and this one but for all you who general here. Not interested in drones. Stick with me for just a minute. Our guest is john damage. The ceo of iris they've developed onboard detect and avoid technology for beyond visual line of sight. Drone flights if piloted in aircraft or going to share the same airspace. This is critical technology that both worlds have a stake in one thing that you will appreciate is that john is a pilot himself and he brings the understanding that you all have into the unmanned space. Just listen to his bio. John has over thirty years of aviation technology. Experience and executive leadership he led new. Business ventures at boeing next. He was chief growth officer at boeing subsidiary. In situ and he was a boeing executive liaison board member to sky. Grid a joint venture between boeing and spark cognition. John was the ceo of two d. Three sensing a leading provider of computer vision based image processing software for aerial surveillance. He's also an faa certified commercial pilot multi engine and instrument ratings and. He's a cfi pretty. Good hey if you're a pilot or naveh geek that's the kind of guy you want in the drone business. Our man on the inside so to speak. Irish autonation is primarily a computer vision and machine learning software company. That's focused on helping. Unpiloted systems detect other airplanes. The company's cassia product is a platform agnostic. Three hundred sixty degree radio computer vision tech and avoid system for unmanned aerial systems. So i invite you to listen to this conversation. I think you'll find it interesting in if you are a subscriber to the uav digest. This is the same interview as an episode. Three hundred and seventy no need to continue unless you'd like to hear it again which would flatter david me. Okay our guest is john damage. He is the ceo of iris automation. They produce the cassia which is platform agnostic. Three hundred and sixty degree radio computer vision detect and avoid system for you a. s. and they also have something they call the regulatory resource center. Which is an online tool that manages. The bbc loss waiver application process. How john's got a really nice long. Fantastic aviation technology career. He led new. Business ventures at boeing next. He was chief growth officer. At boeing's subsidiary in situ and he was a boeing executive liaison and board observer to sky grid which was a joint venture between boeing and spark ignition. John was also the ceo of two d three sensing they're a leading provider of computer vision based image processing software for aerial surveillance in on top of all that he's also an faa certified commercial pilot. He has multi-engine an instrument ratings and he's a cf. I the certified flight instructor. John welcome to the uav digest. Thank you very much. Max and i'm calling in from southern california to stay on team there. We go which probably makes both of your little bit jealous. This time year. I grew up in new jersey so i definitely remember what late february early march felt like This tease of spring but winter holding on for dear life. Well we were at seventy three degrees today. So i actually had the hanger open at the museum which was kind of a nice thing was on the teas. Get the punch is coming all right. Well john why don't we start off talking a little bit about the products and services that irish automation offers Detected avoid is certainly a big part of what you do. Yeah i would say. Detection is primarily what we do we at our core our computer vision and machine learning software company and what the founders of our business realized is that the drone industry was not going to be able to grow exponentially like all the hype held for so many years until drones were allowed to fly more like regular airplanes and The thing that really precludes that from happening today is satisfying the existing regulations as they relate to seeing and avoiding other traffic. And you know what the audience probably knows. Maybe some don't is. There is a specific rule in the current regulations In under part ninety one and that the rule is one thirteen. and be. that says it's the pilot's responsibility Weather conditions permitting to see and avoid all other aircraft. Well the funny thing happens when you take the pilot out of the cockpit in that you've now taken those eyeballs in those sensors out of the aircraft that gives you that what we refer to as the last line of defense against an airborne collision so rightly so Regulators have been very careful not to authorize too many flights of drones beyond visual line of sight until we can solve this problem so that is squarely where irises focused forgive the pun in. That is helping. These unpiloted systems detect other airplanes. So that the autopilots can actually then avoid those aircraft much the same way and frankly what will probably be better than the human pilot can And that's why we're so optimistic and really looking forward to to the value we can provide to the community because while we focus on drones to start The long run is this is a system that can help aviator and i for one as someone who spends a lot of time in low altitudes and small airplanes teaching people to fly I know how bad i am at seeing in avoiding other traffic so if i could get a hold of a system that helped me be better. I would jump at it so yeah. That's that's what we do. What is the sensor suite. And why does it allow at least ultimately Detection that superior to what a human being can deliver in. How close are we to that now. So it's funny because on the surface. The system appears deceptively simple because all it is An array of cameras one six cameras depending on the configuration of europe planet where we have to put cameras to allow you to see the right section array of airspace and a central computer unit which is really no bigger than To iphone stacked on top of one another. So it's a really small innocuous looking piece of hardware. The magic is in software and specifically the fact that It's pretty easy for us as humans to understand how a computer vision system might be able to detect something that's in the field of view because it's moving differently the pixels the way they move. Okay got it. Like i can see how it computer could rapidly determine something different in the scene. That's true. It relatively straightforward and people have been doing this for decades with cameras. What's really hard to do with cameras however is understand how far away something is from that camera because the camera by definition is a two dimensional sensor. You got experts. Why pixels so. How do you get that distance to target. And this is where the machine learning comes in and frankly. This is only been computational possible Within the last five years or so computers get small enough to be on board and also suck a small enough amount of power so that you don't use all of your power to run the computer and can't fly right you kind of need to still fly so The advent of gpu's now puts enough power processing power at a low enough electrical power. Need to be able to do this kind of math on board the airplane and the math is where our software is. So what we do. Is we use machine. Learning to defy the targets that the computer vision system detects once. We can classify those targets. Think small helicopter large helicopter single engine small plane twitch small plane. We now have a an approximation of their size and given their size in the real world and knowledge of our cameras. Geometry we can now directly compute. How far away. That thing is from the camera that's clever. Therein lies the magic. And when you combine those two things together and you run them online or on on boarded ten frames per second note. Now have a real time detection system. that's capable of helping you avoid collisions. Different people are working on different. Detect and avoid systems. Is there any kind of a requirement for consistency across the industry. Does it matter if people are using different systems as long as each one is sufficiently accurate. Yeah there's two parts here So there's a regulatory answer to this And then there's technology answer to this. The regulatory answer is yes. The regulator definitely cares how this is done because for a regulator to be able to grant permission for someone to fly either as a special case or as codified in regulations. They need to understand. Not just where the system works. But we're a system doesn't work and you know the analogy. I'll use is when you take an aircraft through stirs certification. It's not about the faa like breaking out the holy water in the chicken bone cross and saying. Oh this is an airplane worth flying. What they do is they basically by validate the claims. You make as a manufacturer as to the performance of that aircraft in the core case in the edge cases and in the failure cases if the you show them and can prove matches what you said it will do. Then you get certification so The regulator definitely cares how this happens and they want to know what the performance limitations are with the reliability is what happens when something abnormal comes into the field of you to potentially distract the system. What does the system due to to make sure that the probability of detection that we claim is actually what happens so we we actually do a lot of work flying airplanes at other real airplanes To to get these kinds of collision geometry's that we need to build up a large enough corpus of data to show the regulator how the system works and doesn't work in a variety of different conditions and scenario. So that's that's the regulatory answer here. The technical answer to that question max In the future it is my opinion that the very best detect and avoid system has multiple sensing modalities deployed simultaneously so you would have an optical system like ours you would have a radar system you would have an acoustic system because each of these is naturally complementary in different ways and therefore now you're building a layered set of mitigations that ensure that nothing sleep slips between the cracks right so in that case you do need to understand if target that the radar system produced is the same target the optical system produced that matches up with what the acoustic system says so. There's data synchronization correlation. And i hate this word. A lot of people use it fusion. That will need to happen. So that a multimodal system can produce an output that either in on board machine system or an off board human operator can easily interpret and then make a decision to commence an avoidance maneuver as a result. John you're talking about life. And i i agree fusions kind of a strange word but what mitigations do you have for the sensors not being overloaded. You're flying you said southern california. So you're flying in the los angeles airspace. There's a lot of moving targets there. How quickly they're going to be a differentiation. And you may have to. Aircraft similar like say one seventy. Two's flying at different altitudes at different distances. But you know they have pretty much the same profile. How is the computation. Are we getting that far. Or is that four or five more years down the road. So i mean this is one of the Probably the good news parts about the optical approach to the to the problem is a cameras a camera so The saturation challenge. That you present there is really if you had two very similar targets that were kind of co populating a vector of view from the camera. So get one seventy two. That was a mile behind another one. Seventy two and then they were kind of like juxtaposed a little bit. Does that now look like something different or does it hide one or the other. Yeah i mean th those are definitely the challenges of any optical system and you know by my Point of view on that. It's exactly the same challenge that the human faces but computational the system itself doesn't really have a target limit some radar systems do because of the processing that has to go into radar Well there's post processing has to happen in a radar system but also just the number of simultaneous returns. You can process the system so you've probably heard things like an f. Fifteens air to air radar can simultaneously track. What whatever. The number is simultaneous targets. Right and that's like the air superiority advantage but with an optical system it's passive so it's just whenever we see in the camera the takes care of and does what it does. So we don't really have an inherent computational limit when it comes to that it Visual limit so certainly if the skies were darkened with a million cessnas and a square mile. Then yeah we probably break well that brings up another thing. Your optical system. How does it deal with weather. Inclement again with southern california. A good old foggy day in southern california in june gloom. As they say you got it you got it now. You're absolutely right. It optical is optical. If we can't see it we can't track it just like a human. The nice thing about that constraint is that typically that also means there's fewer non-cooperative traffic targets in the airspace. So the threat we're really trying to combat is the non-cooperative target and it's a funny word because when you hear non-cooperative our our brains immediately go to like somebody just doesn't wanna play with us. Well no actually in the united states wonderful civil liberties. We have which is free access to the airspace. There's airspace where you can go jump in an airplane with no radio. no transponder. no eighty s be system. nothing electronic at all and go fly like god bless america. That is amazing. The problem is those very same perfectly. Legal pilots are also sharing airspace. Where there's a lot of industrial inspection that wants to happen there. In rural areas there pipelines. Power lines mapping fields doing methane detection. Whatever it might be That's where people wanted to deploy drums. So now what you have is the perfectly legal but non-cooperative target the proverbial person in their cub on the weekend in the same airspace as the enterprise drone. That's trying to do. You know a thousand kilometer scanning mission or something like that. So this is the case that scares the regulator and rightly so because we don't want to step on the freedoms that we enjoy in the country. So we don't wanna force the gpa community to have to equipped with special equipment just to allow the drone community to go flying. And when you also the fact that the rules are based on a principle of see and be seen which works great when you got to a airplanes or two airliners doesn't work great when you've got a g airplane drone because the drone is just frankly impossible to see from the plane which means the responsibility to see an avoid falls on the shoulders of the drone operator. Not the general aviation operator so so we're all about trying to detect that non-cooperative threat. Fortunately when when the weather's bad save below via far minimums That threat really doesn't exist out there. And if they do then they're flying illegally and at the end of the day you know we're not trying and neither is the regulator trying to hold us accountable to building a system that defends against the illegal operator. There's a certain amount of trust in the system that people will will follow. The rules will on the spectrum from zero. All of this is a an idea. All the way to have a certified detecting devoid Mechanism where do we fall now in in that spectrum. Yeah i would say So if the left side is a great idea if the right side is fully certified. We're right of center First of all there's no unmanned system out there that's fully certified yet right the rules on on the books there's no standards of compliance mops cetera etc that the communities all working towards this right now The faa has done a great thing. Here in america and Provided pass to type certification drones below fifty five pounds which is referred to usually as derby reliability Which unfortunately when you say the acronym fast sounds like dnr which sounds like. Do not resuscitate. But that's not what it means. It's really good path forward because it's performance based and that's great That allows a new manufacturer of an aircraft to come in and prove that they can fly a certain number of hours incident free and that the performance maps to their claims. And that's what the regular is all about. Like i said before. Does your performance match your claims so they now have a path to be able to do that with small drones. Melons finished it yet. But we're getting there right. People are in the process and we expect certify drones app and soon when it comes to our system. This is an interesting question and one that is still as of yet. Unresolved there's two parts We certainly need cameras and computers on board to be able to do what we do on board. That's got to be part of the airplane while if it's part of the airplane than it's gonna fall under the type certification basis for the airplanes at some point because you've got power you've got signal you've got structure. The lenses have to be able to see outside the airplane which means there might be an aerodynamic impact that has to take care of outer mold line at cetera et right so these things belong in the certification baseline of the airplane. So we want to get on board the airplanes as early as possible with partner. Oem's so that as they go to submit their stuff the casio hardware as part of the trump systems. Now that said when a cessna one seventy to get certified it does not have a detect and avoid system. It has a seat for said detecting avoid system which is a human. So it's really the human that provides the da capability to be you know regulatory compliance after the fact so i firmly believe that what we'll see is a combination any hardware that goes on board for optical a radar acoustic. That's that's gonna fall under the aircraft type certification but when it comes to what that system must do in terms of its performance. I think a lot of that is going to be more closely tied to the operations that you intend to go. Do your literally your missions in your use cases in the environments that you're gonna go fly those in because if you're flying pipeline patrol ten feet above the pipeline in the alaskan tundra guess what There's not gonna be a lot of the traffic out there so maybe you really don't need a three hundred sixty degree field of view system that could see an airplane a mile away right because you're also flying ten feet above the pipeline. So if there's anybody else fly ten. Feet above the pipeline. I would argue that breaking rules already but be contrast is if you're flying in you know southern california's a great example. There's class golf airspace in southern california. That's every bit as busy as a class. Charlie airspace and other parts of the country. So if you're trying to fly in that environment will guess what. Yeah you probably do need at three hundred sixty degree field of view system that can track multiple targets within a mile of the aircraft etc etc. So i think it's combination of both Where we are technically to come directly. Answer your question We are on board aircraft. We flown we've actually received two waiver approvals from the faa twenty nineteen under the immigration Pilot program for the use of our system as the bb loss and detected avoid safety system on board. Now they're limited use cases. It's not a copy and paste. That doesn't like all of a sudden give everybody a license to go. Oh go go do that The i p p. and the current faa program their programs that are designed to allow the regulator to learn to go explore different use cases in different environments to understand where the real risks are so that they can inform rulemaking the future so Faa learned about that stuff from the ip that what happens and beyond we are participant beyond so it is It is my expectation within the next couple of years. You'll see more clarity from the regulators around the world not just fa on tv loss and that From our perspective and technically the system works. It does what it does. We're in the process of gathering both real world and simulated data in enough volume. That we can put the data in front of the regulator so they can see the entire performance below the good the bad the ugly and understand. Okay this is the level of credit. Were willing to give this system because this is where we trust. It's gonna work with ninety five percent reliability and above that gives us the kind of detect and avoid system that we want now irish automations also involved in a pathfinder program in canada. Tell us a little bit about what that involves. Yeah indeed So fundamentally we don't have a business unless people go fly. Bb loss so On the surface canadian program. It's not really revenue producer for us. But that's not the point. The point is to raise the bar of other participants in the in the industry so that more people are prepared to go do. Bb las operations so That's specific exercise exercise. It's a it's a partnership with transport. Canada is to help new entrance. Come use the canadian ranges to get and build flight experience in. Bv loss so it's a very controlled environment. There's not a lot of threat aircraft if you want some. You can bring some in in design your encounters so that you can test and learn Wheat supply cassius systems. So they can put him on board and see how to interact with a das system. As part of the development of their concepts of operation the developments of their training materials and their individual staff experience levels because in canada you have to have a certain experience level before you're even allowed to apply for any kind of sfo see special flight operational clearances to go. Do this work so for us. It's a great way to collaborate with the regulator. It's a great way to provide a safe environment for new entrance to come in and really really build up the flight hours that they need to understand what this really means and then go forth so it's all about Industry enabling enablement for us And regulatory relationships so We're really proud of that program. We anticipate that it's going to help a lot of people Kind of up their game in terms of bb loss flight and ultimately we know it'll come around bay davidenko for us because then we're going to have more people in the marketplace who are cassie a customers that come about. Did you call canada or did canada call you you know. Interestingly the company was originally founded in vancouver bc also This is back in twenty fifteen and the two founders met at a university of british columbia so that our genesis is in canada. So i think the relationship with regulators started as far back as then and throughout the years. The interesting thing about canada is it's this interesting. Van diagram overlapped between rules. That look like the faa's rules and rules that look like European aviation space administration. Yasa's rules right and that's great. That's a pretty cool crucible to be able to test things out so Based on that you know relationship we also have a really really good. And i feel very qualified saying this. Because i come out of the boeing company regulatory team we've got You know five people in regulatory team who are absolutely top notch and they have amazing relationships with global regulators. And you know it's through those relationships that start talking about different things and challenges in the industry and somebody comes up with an idea. And it just kind of snowballed from there that said. Hey if you're willing to do this is a company because you know we got contribute some resources to make this happen going to be really good thing for the industry so we saw and we said this is a good idea. Let's let's go do it. Did you have something. David you look like you were i. Well i was. I was thinking john. We were talking about canada. Canadian regulations versus us faa regulations. Is it a challenge to navigate. All of everybody's doing different things like you said he yasa and the pacific regions etc i mean. Are you working on the assumption that you know you get the faa rigs in the rest of it you can sort of. How are you navigating all of the different rules. Yeah so the good news is. Nobody's got rules yet job. You know the your your observation is spot on though david in that. It is a challenge because the rules don't exist yet everybody's trying to figure it out and everybody has a slightly different angle on that. The good news is is that historically Regulators do reciprocate with each other. So you know if somebody comes up with a rule set. I that proves to be safe. Then if the other regulators don't adopt it they'll at least honor it. So you can take a us registered aircraft and fly in europe without having to get a european registration because there's reciprocity so We fully expect that the regulators will continue to behave in that way and during this process where the global regulatory community has been trying to figure it out. We've seen a remarkable amount of collaboration and information sharing back and forth It's mixed in with a healthy bitta competition. I think i think every regulator kinda wants to be first to figure it out and there's a feather in the cap there but but that said it hasn't been competitive. They've been sharing information around things like specific operation risk assessment. Or seora for your audience if they've ever heard that acronym And store methods and principles being applied across just about every jurisdiction today because it it provides us performance based in an operational based way to assess risks that then lead to subsequent approval so I've been incredibly pleased. Both at my time at boeing. And by time. Here iris to see that kind of regulatory collaboration and i expect it will continue. That's great it sounds really healthy productive relationship. Which is yeah. I mean as much as you can say. Government bureaucracy is healthy but yeah yeah well. Speaking of organizations there's something called the world economic forum and They have i guess. An aerospace droned section of it and Irises working in that context. What's that all about. They do honestly completely honored to be a part of that community It's an amazing group of government. Representatives industry representatives individuals academics. That are really focused. At how for specific sector of it. You know how drones can better the human condition around the world and That's really cool right because everybody wants to know that something you do like helps other people in some way. It's a tremendous motivator and a really nice and tangible reward for for the hard work that you put into something so when you look at Most of the rest of the world's economies these are regions of the world where there's not significant infrastructure but you still have population growth so you have. The challenges of things like population growth's fighting against the challenges of immature infrastructure and robotic aircraft can offer a lot of value in those environments for the urgent things like delivering medicines. Like that is amazing. And you've seen great success from from drone companies over the last few years you know namely companies like zip line or or swoop You know out there flying doing these kinds of deliveries for the betterment of humans. That live there right. That's awesome but the number of use cases where drones apply in the rest of the world is massive so this is really what the w. f. is trying to do is really explore these use cases find industry participants who are willing to kind of pay their own way for lack of better way to put it to be part of these missions and the value we get out of it is is learning right we get to go try stuff in the field for great purpose. it's wonderful for our teams to to get that sense of satisfaction But then we get a feedback loop from the deployment of systems in the real world. That helped Then improve the pace of development than the accuracy of developments running new capabilities. Helping a company is iris. How many employees or what kinds of skill sets are involved here. Yeah we're tiny. We're about forty people with three main parts of the company where we have the majority of people certainly on the aren decide building the tech certainly on the regulatory side because we need to have really good transparent data exchange with regulators But perhaps on the less obvious side. Although when i say to go of course obvious We have a pretty decent flight operations team and they fly drones and airplanes every day in reno to go gather the real world data that we need to validate and verify the performance of our system. So we have guy named in god. Bless him all he wants to do all day fly. That's what we make practically flies a cub in a myriad of very precise patterns and timings to make sure that it all lines up with our test methods and the way we want to to create the data so that we can validate the performance. We expect of that data. So he you know. He spends most of his days flying around at five hundred feet. He'll come over the desert. He's found the dream job pretty much. Maybe you would. You would think he was married to that airplane the way he talks about it but he kind is so john. How did you get where you are and maybe talk a little bit about your flying. Your flying yourself. Yes sure i was. That annoying kid at the airport was four years old telling everybody that would listen to how many engines were on the airplane. What thrusts they produced passengers. Jared yada yada yada right. Like i was that freak Just love airplanes and then On my fourteenth birthday my dad was army for twenty years and he He surprised me and he says giant got present we talked to and we got in the car and we drove out to fort dix in southern new jersey mcguire air force base specifically now. It's called joint base fort dix. Mcguire is on that what they call it now but big wire dicks lakers. Md outright so it was mcguire force base and they had an arrow club. Which if you're active duty or retired could use and your Dependence qualified so he said cool. We're gonna take flight lessons together. Went through the ground school together. And i had my first flight lesson at age fourteen so i was quite literally flying airplanes before i was driving cars and And i was hooked. It was all over. I knew i had to have like flying in my life one way or another so fortunately for me. I was always really good at math. And science and that led to an aerospace engineering undergrad In parallel got my private licence and my instrument license and then shortly after college. I said you know. Maybe i'll make a go of this. Being a pilot for career went and added the commercial ratings multi engine rating started teaching people to fly through flight instructors rating to build the hours necessary to apply to regional airline and along that path. I got an opportunity to join a company that was doing flight simulation for entertainment And this is a fascinating thing you can do all podcast in this business. That i could probably find some old stuff but it was a place called fighter town and we had twelve cockpits which were basically noses cut off of old fighters from the bone yard and we wired them up with a ho- tasks sticking throttle controls and projected visuals out the outside and it was all networked together so this was nineteen ninety. Three and i was the first engineer. Hired outside of the three founders. Who started the company. And i gotta tell. I fell in love with startups. I fell in love with this idea of entertainment and that business failed miserably. Break shining star for a couple years and people would come in. They buy their own flight suits their helmets. They didn't know each other's first names. They called each other by call signs. They you know. Enter the parking lot in their top transam. Blazing kenny loggins. Right out of top gun. It was absolutely fantastic But you know business didn't work and for me as a young engineer is not worth is coolest thing since sliced bread and it kind of Lit a fire in me to go back to school. So i got my mba learned. What business was all about. And then i could analyze that business and go. Oh no wonder that didn't work. So yeah so then i just kind of skip the middle bit of the career couple of other startups. I was a part of that. Didn't work out. And i ended up joining up with a british company. Two thousand which is a company called fight con motion systems which makes these high end optical motion tracking cameras. And if you ever seen the making of a movie or video game replay low balls on your body animated character that was as vicodin so I was sales guy for them for a little bit. Did really well. There ended up being a sales manager. Did well there ended up running the entertainment division out of la. We did a couple of acquisitions ran a studio in la that did special effects and they had the sister company which wasn't doing terribly well wasn't failing but it wasn't growing and they asked me to come in and see what i could do with it so we It used computer vision and airplanes. We took video and telemetry off of airborne platforms and used computer vision software to allow an analyst to make a report that might be a map. It might be a measurement might be target tracking. It might be target coordinates and we ended up. Pivoting that business to be A software company for the dod and ended up selling that business in twenty fifteen two bowling. That's how i got into the boeing family and then And then you know how i got to this place. It's been absolutely fascinating journey. And fortunately for me always been a thread through. that's fantastic. it's It's so nice when you can craft a career around something that you're really passionate about max you say that as if it was deliberate it was a complete accident and all that stuff happens so well you know luck sometimes figures into it. Yeah hey yeah. I'd rather be lucky than good. That's great but we do see lots of companies lots of startups in in the unmanned aviation space And we also see lots of of the big legacy companies air framers and others. That are playing i. That's actually the bad not not a good word to use not playing. But they're you know making investments in this In this field engaging into the spectrum of unbanned system but sounds great that sounds better than playing crude systems on crude systems. Yes that's completely So john de typically when when you see a new industry i'll i'll call it growing like this and all these players you end up. Having a lot of consolidation and companies fall out others are survivors. Are we looking you. Think at the same kind of scenario here. I think we're in the middle of that Maybe we're a little farther along with the small drones than we are saving vitale's taxes. But you know. When i was at boeing next i mean. This was a scant cheese a year and a half ago you could count one hundred fifty companies that were building air taxi right underneath with close to a thousand no actually another consolidation started. Now you really down to about five. That are legitimate contenders and and they're the five that are getting you know massive capital investments through either or venture capital because that's what it takes to bring new airplane to market. Yes a massive amount of capital. Yes you know. I mean it's estimated that the seven eight seven program from start to finish. Now mind you. This isn't a clean. Sheet design like boeing building. Twin engined airliners for decades right so to bring that airplane to certification you know was measured in multiple billions of dollars by the most expert company in the world. Doing it right so to be a startup coming into making passenger-carrying airplane from scratch. Better have money in the bees. And i think a lot of those new entrance kind of started to learn that and see the scope of the problem and self selected out right. The small drones space. Oh can i use that term going forward self-selected because we've talked about like amazon. You know going into drones and for a while there. Google was going to go into drones and they sort of you sort of go. Why are you doing this. And then but they self selected out because they figure. I'm going thank you john. That was my. That's my new term for the mike you term for for bingo. Yeah there you go awesome. I don't know if you have enough squares on the bingo card for self selected. But maybe you're just a really advanced bingo group. it's awesome But yeah i think consolidations part of any industry. I think This is one of the reasons we have this thing called. The regulatory resource center in the business is that it. It can be daunting to be a new entrant into this highly regulated space and even know where to start. We've been doing this now for several years and like i referred to earlier. Regulatory team is top notch. So what we've done is we've said. Hey let's take some of these learnings. Let's put them on a website. Let's put the documentation the workflows on a website. So people can have a place to go start and then you know the ones that are serious than we offer. Our professional regulatory services are people in their time As kind of a consulting service to help them take the next steps if they don't have the capacity or the expertise to do it themselves and again. This all goes to bring more people to be able to do this. Work with those kinds of airplanes ultimately is going to build the market base that we need for for the products that were building so. The regulatory resource center is available for who Anybody that is considering either. Starting drone business drone business wants to start to pursue beyond visual line of sight flying Right now the only path to being able to fly beyond visual line of sight commercially is to get a waiver from the faa and that waiver is basically something that exempts you from the rules. Either part one. Oh seven or ninety one or part one. Thirty five to go do the operations so It's not an easy path. There's a lot of paperwork that has to be done. There's a lot of data that you asked to have to produce if you've never done it before it can be a lengthy and costly process to learn so we don't. We don't want our customers to have to go through that pain Want them to be future customers. So we're doing this to help them go faster early to get to that point it. How long ago was that established. Well we've been doing it kind of honestly for the last couple of years. We officially established it last year. we recognize. There's enough people now doing this. That we probably we can get some return out of the investment of of codifying and putting it together We're also building out a workflow kind of phased approach to helping people take incremental steps towards a bb loss waiver that starts with certainly get access to the regulatory resource center on the webpage But then they have a very small firm fixed price package that we call a sas which allows them to share with us what they want to go do. And then we give them an assessment back based on regulatory knowledge of the the gaps in their approach where they need to do to kind of fill in those gaps. So it's kind of like a coaching kinda thing is but you know there's a lot of people out there that just don't know where to start so that's what we're trying to do. Tastic will john. Where do people go to learn more about service automation or the regulatory research center. Yeah sure it's simple Dub dub dub that iris onboard dot com all one word. Oh my god. I know what he's going to say. Go ahead david on. You are the first person ever. Besides max flight. I've ever heard say dub dub dub we used to make finding those years to dub dub airplane geeks dot com. What the hexa dub dub dub congratulations john. You just validated max. After after twelve years of of say there's another one out there. okay folks. I cannot confirm or deny whether he sent me now. I am to use that or not so that out there. We'll just leave it out there. John damage thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been a fascinating conversation. We could probably go for another whole episode Maybe we'll have you back in the future if We haven't scared you away completely but we really want to thank you for speaking with us and with our audience yet max david thank you guys for the time and the honor to be bored. I think this is a blast and those close to me. And those who work with me know that i could probably continue to talk about these things for hours on our so your audience. Maybe this is a good time to stop and take a break. But i appreciate it and yeah anytime i'd be happy to come back on and talk some more so thank you guys very much. Thank you thank you. I hope you enjoyed listening to john. Damage talk about detecting avoid technology. Their website is iris on board dot com. That's i r. i s on board dot com hours. Of course is airplane. Geeks dot com. And if you want more drone talk visit. Uav digest dot com. Or if you can't remember that drone podcast dot com will get you there in. Of course our email is the geeks. Airplane geeks dot com so next week we should have some content from sun and fun. I think we'll be announcing the four winners of the plane tags giveaway on that episode after that will return to our regular format. Think right by everybody in. Thanks for listening
Drones with Chris Anderson
"Drone applications are easy to imagine drones will deliver food to us. Drones will be able to extinguish fires. Drones will be used to relay relate Internet signal and make the world more connected. These all sound like great ideas. So why aren't there more drones in the sky. Today there are many answers to that question. Some of which relate to engineering and some of which are about regulatory barriers Chris. Anderson is the CEO of Three D. Robotics a drone company which he started seven years ago before three Dr. Chris worked for many years as a journalist writing about technology and science. He was the editor in chief at wired for eleven years a writer for the Economist for seven years and spent three years at both of the leading scientific journals nature nature and science. Chris is highly eloquent and has lots of interesting ideas he also wrote the long tail. which is an influential essential? Two thousand four book which described set of emergent Internet trends. I read that book back in two thousand nine and it was enlightening. Chris joins the show for a discussion about drones journalism and his perspective on modern technology. This podcast is brought to you by Pager. Duty you've probably heard of pager. Duty Teams Trust Pager duty to help them deliver high quality digital experiences to their customers with pager. Duty teams spend less time reacting adding two incidents and more time building software over twelve thousand businesses rely on pager duty to identify issues and opportunities in real time and bring together the right people to fix problems faster and prevent those problems from happening again. Pager Duty Helps Your company's digital title operations run more Smoothly Pager Duty Helps you intelligently pinpoint issues like outages as well as capitalize on opportunities empowering teams to take the right real time action to see how companies like Ge Vodafone box and American Eagle Rely on pager duty to continuously improve if they're digital operations visit pager duty dot com. I'm really happy to have pager duty as a sponsor I I heard about them on a podcast probably more than five years ago and so it's quite satisfying to have them on software engineering daily as a sponsor I've been hearing about their product for many years and I hope you check it out at Pager. Duty Dot Com Samson himself. Jimmy Daley thank you I. I saw your name when I read the long tail in College. Excellent Book I've followed volunteer work since then did spend many years as a professional editor writer. But your background is as a scientist in two thousand nine and you started three. Dr And no longer had as much time for writing or editing if you were full time writer or editor today what. What area would you be covering? Gosh that's a good question. I backed into writing and editing simply because I inside done physics and Physics was kind of a dying Profession for reasons that had to do with like the cost of accelerators and things like that my parents had been journalists and I swore I would never do journalism for exactly that reason but what you know I I tried to find a middle ground which was okay. I'm not going to be a journalist but I you know rather than doing science all I work for the science journals and you know and and and write about or read it you know science so I still felt like I was in science and academia but it was technically media nature and science with the two journals but again I didn't think of writing as being my thing that ended up writing. You know in in that in that context doing journalism although science journalism. And then I went from there to the economist where I was. You know. Starting Science and technology and at the economist. If you've read the Economist got very distinctive voice and what I learned there was I picked up that voice and you can think of the Oxford's debating society voice Prime Minister's Question Time Voice. But it's it's it's it's a voice that has confident. That's a sure that's quite opinionated. That sort of you know assertion evidence assertion evidence and when you get to the economist. The reason I'm telling you this story is because you know I think that once you get that voice it becomes very portable and that that voice carries you onto books and beyond so I'll I'll explain explain why that voice carries on but when you get to the communist that was a poster on the wall and the poster on. The Wall had the canonical economists sentence and the canonical. Oh economists sentences wrong period. A matter of fact is economical economist paragraph. Now when you think about that what does it take to be able to get away with wrong wrong period as a paragraph and what that means is that you basically. Have you set up an assertion. Somebody else's assertion presumably. You know the the Prime Minister of Indonesia has said that palm oil subsidies or the route to the country's prosperity wrong period. How do you get away with that? And the answer is that you're not just not some neutral observer you're coming from a an intellectual foundation. Basically the anglo-saxon Philosophical Foundation of free markets and free people and Democracy. And all this kind of stuff. And you're summoning all this kind of western philosophy to take down an argument using the kind of the power of the brand the T. One hundred fifty years and becomes traditions. The you know the the world worldview of the liberal British British perspective. And then you sort of you know and and then the rest of it is just you know once you've internalized that voice and once you have you know even turn allies. The you know the Anglo Saxon you know economic philosophy then you can go around see the world through that Lens and say you know wrong long period and explain why and at the end of the day. People come away informed perhaps enlightened by that perspective so that confidence and that voice. which did you learn and You know the editors sitting on editors floor every Monday morning as the debates on what you're GonNa say come across that voice then you know once you come out of there you realize well. There's a lot a lot of the world that you can apply that that voice to you. Could you could talk about technology. You could talk about the environment you can talk about science. It's not necessarily be need to be obnoxious contrarian but it gives you the confidence to to move beyond the the the the the failure of American journalism failure American journalists the neutrality. You know what people call the view from nowhere just like on one hand people say this on the other hand people say that and American journalists aren't allowed to have opinions whereas whereas elsewhere in the world especially in the UK journalists are allowed have opinions especially informed opinions and so that power to have an opinions or carries over to writing. And then when you write a book like the long tail free or or makers etc.. That book becomes a thesis. It's basically just a a long informed. Opinion argued out. And now you have now you have the ability to have opinions. You have the ability to to inform those opinions at the bill and the ad the skills to communicate that opinions you know. Now the world's you're always stor so if I was writing today I would not I listen to you. Basically go and you said what is the most interesting thing that's the most poorly poorly understood. Those are the those are the best the best ones so I think. Ai Probably Right now is very interesting and poorly understood. There's lots of people writing code but good books about it so I wouldn't. I don't need to to add to that. Think autonomy in general is interesting poorly understood. I'm tormented by headlines about AI ethics. Which I think is a complete head scratcher veteran? I don't even know what that means. So that would be the reason not to write about it because I don't want to get caught up in a in a straw man arguments but no general right now. Technology has accelerated faster faster than society's ability to to deal with it and that strikes me as a good opportunity to bring clarity and persuasive argument to the the case there are so many applications of consumer drones that could improve our world. Why don't we see drones in the sky every day? Why why is the sky? Not Dark with drones. I ask myself every morning so you are with me here. In Berkeley. At the headquarters of three are also. Berkeley was one of the birthplaces of the modern Auden. Drone drone industry. This is a military drones started the nineteen fifties. But this is the this is the consumer that you're describing it. Was You know here. With the University of California's a Stanford Myself in about ten years ago and at the time. It was obvious that you know that Adrian's could be cheap and ubiquitous Quddus so I started something called. Diy Drones on the the notion that you could stick like literally the letters. Do It yourself in front of military industrial thing and it could work. It was clear. Clear that drones were going to be the future we're going to descend from smartphones. Not from triple seven's so that Sorta told you something about if you know. smartphones are ubiquitous. Presume that drones could be as well so economic reason couldn't and then the next question was only GonNa be you know what are they good for. You know we've answered the question. What are they good for sufficiently because there as a regulatory barrier between inventing a drone being able to use a drone the regulatory barrier by the totally appropriate? It's true for autonomous cars as well. You know anytime you're it's silicon valley is all about asking forgiveness not permission and I can tell you the original drones. We did not look for permission. We just I did it and San Francisco out there is got floor. That Bay is scattered with crash drones. Nobody got hurt. I don't think they leaked bad things into the foam etc but lots. Lots of drones crashed in the course of doing this as we went from the DIY phase to the commercial phase and then and then and the consumer phase as we started to have to comply with the regulations and the FAA regulations initially didn't allow commercial use at all. It was only recreational. Use those really like not. You couldn't make money from drones until two thousand sixteen so there's one answer why this guy's not dark with these things. The next answer is that even once commercial use was allowed it had certain restrictions you had to stay within visual on a site you say below four hundred feet. You couldn't fly over people. You couldn't fly at night. And also there had to be one pilot per drone so although their autonomous they don't need piloting they're actually has to be a person standing there and even today are fully. Autonomous Drones cannot be launched into a human being touches night bad. That's so I think they just have to touch an IPAD and the actor touching the IPAD. Validates there is a human being present watching in case something happens. Emergency Services Headquarters helicopter or something like that. So we actually haven't achieved any real efficiencies yet because these restrictions now we're very very close to being able to to to break through and there's an FAA process this is called type certification and once vehicles certified as safe then it will be allowed to fly beyond visual Site over people maybe more than one to one pilot to human piloted drone but could be one to twenty one to fifty one to one hundred. And then we're going to start to see the efficiencies that automation and robotics brings Beck that's going to I mean our our type certification's going to be the first and that's going to happen before the end of the year. Starting next year we may actually start to see them flying. Initially we're gonna be doing things like infrastructure the structure inspection pipeline powerline inspection but dams your state delivery things like that and so. I think that I think the answer. Is You know we thought it. There's a technical problem and we saw the technical problem and five years it was actually a technical and then a regulatory problem. The regulatory problems can take ten years. And we're about five years into it so give us give us another few years and and we'll get there. What would they be doing anything? Satellites were doing in the seventy s and airplanes. Were doing the nineties in drones can do can do you better not not. They don't have higher resolution both spatial temporal resolution. So if you want to see something. Millimeter resolution every hour. Only only a drone can do that if you WanNa see the globe once a week that whatever. That's that's a satellite but the long answer to your question but I believe that we in silicon looking valley have a holy mission. which is that we were? We were gifted the Internet. We're born with you. Know the most important technology are ages electrcity of our time and our mission in his to extend this gift to the world. Extend the Internet to our homes to our arms to our cars to the air to space etcetera. And why. Why would we do that? Well if you extend the Internet into the world the world becomes smarter all these devices connected to the Internet are smarter Ford and the Internet becomes smarter from being able to kind of measure the the planet and are fundamental principles. That you can only manage what you can measure. And we've been doing kind of kind of bad job of managing the planet from environmental and economic perspectives. And so better. We can measure the planet with drones and satellites and everything else and feed it into the Internet. Will the better. We will be managing right. Now we're just picking the ones that where the where the value is the highest We're here in. Wildfire season in California are drones are being used to fight wildfires. How do they do that? The thermal cameras you can see through the smoke and see what the fires are before the fire. The drones can spot the fuel the needles and the believes that will create those fires and then after the fire we can spot the hotspots. They're still there so they don't turn into fires again. Climate change our drones right now. All the water infrastructure the dams and levees of America or built assuming one amount of rainfall level rise and they're all being challenged by climate change. So those you know now. We're seeing floods we're seeing you know the sea level rise etcetera all that infrastructure needs to be re re skinned impossibly. Expensive we know with on on the ground and trivial easy for drones and so you're seeing the US Army Corps of Engineers using in your Jones. Look at all those levees there figure out what's what needs to be reinforced. And what doesn't and so on looking for a job is painful. And if you're in software and you have the skill set needed to get a job robin technology. It can sometimes seem very strange that it takes so long to find a job. That's a good fit. friel veteran is an online hiring marketplace. That connects highly qualified workers with top companies. vetera- keeps the quality of workers and companies on the platform high because because veterans vets both workers and companies access is exclusive and you can apply to find a job through victory by going to veteran dot COM com slash s. e. daily that's V. E. T. T. E. R. Y. dot com slash S. e. daily. 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Save daily thank you to veterans for being a sponsor of software engineering daily over the remaining five years of that regulatory time line and then in the successive years after that. How will your business strategy unfold? We at three. Dr Started by building the components for drones autopilots such than we became than we built. The drones themselves awesome became America's largest manufacturer drones then went to the Chinese. Got Really good at it. We got out of that and we moved over to the software so essentially software company. We just look at the data from from Jones. It's not the drums itself. That's not entirely true. We do actually have one of our cells for for people who can't earn on allowed to buy Chinese drones which is like the US government by and large where we're on the data side and so we used to be that it was quite hard to use a drone gather data. Now it's trivial easy to touch a button. Magic happens and the question is where's the return on investment on that day the highest so we start with construction then we went to the geospatial industries. Like the you know the birth work inspection that we talked about before your sting Pu- public public safety fire. Police picking up his well. We have just scratched the surface of. What's possible here? I think that you know what the regulation allows us to do is to go beyond that sort of visual site perspective so we're looking at like like bigger areas so although we started with autodesk and construction we're now actually working even more with with a geospatial stuff with like with as raise geospatial giant and. That's our main partner in this. Whatever they were doing with satellites years ago? They're increasingly doing with with drones. And the Nice thing about these regulations is that now we can. Now we can fly tens of kilometers you know so beyond visualized site so linear infrastructure power lines gas pipelines roads roads bridges tunnels airports. All that kind of stuff now is. That's now within the reach of what we can scan with drones. So I think you're GONNA see us. You can see more of the world fall within the scope of drones. We've already the battery. Life's already there. You know the flight times already there. The soon the regulations will be there and now you know think of it. We've been looking at pixels Oregon start looking at screens. What are the remaining technical barriers that feel the most acute right now? Ah almost none. I sort of feel like all the technical problems were solved years ago. I'm not that's not entirely true. But you know fully autonomous in including Centene Voids Company skied. Yo Right now doing amazing amazing work. But that's computer vision. Basically you know navigating through forests and through through leaves etcetera just using just using cameras. That's flying low when you fly higher you want to be able to avoid other aircraft and that's a harder computer vision problem. But there's this company called Iris Automation. That's doing that again with with cameras you know. The vehicles can fly almost any distance drones afloat across the mid-atlantic just use different fuel gas engines or hybrids or whatever. The radio links can go tens or hundreds of miles. The computer vision is amazing. GPS get better and better the software's kind of done on On all this this this almost nothing I can think of the drone delivery precision landing all that stuff. We basically benefit from the advantages in a and computer vision out there already so I literally cannot think of any technical problems right now. They haven't at least been solved at the university level. What about security well into fine define security? I mean the military has secure drones and has and has for many years. It's just you know. Do you want to do you want to have it like going. Through satellites nights encrypted sure can be done right now at the security is kind of whatever people want among the commercial space. It's standard Wifi to fifty. Six bit. Encryption encryption you can go you can pay more for for other security on the cloud side. We use fed ramp. There's really it's kind of what he want to pay it all exists. Let's imagine a construction site. I want to map that construction site or ensure the the safety I want to have an understanding of. What's going on in that construction site and so I'm going to use a drone to do that? Walk me through. What the drone is doing as it's flying over or through the construction site? How is the data getting recorded? How's IT getting sent to the cloud or is it like sitting on the drone and then the drone lands and you have to upload it take me through the technical process so I'll I'll describes her the optimal process and so far larger customers? They've kind of got it all all all very efficient. The optimal process is that this is being done every day. Maybe in the morning and the evening so you know the temporal resolution you know not just not just the spatial but because we objective here is to create what's called digital twin back in the day you know. Construction was started on screens with cad file but the moment they started digging it was analog paper. Blueprints need notepads and things like that we want that digital file that the digital plan to reflect reality so you know as they say you know no no no plan survives the first shot you know. Construction projects survives the for spader. Yes something changed. And so if you don't update the digital filed and that digital file you know there's interpreted it it sort of loses its relevance as it becomes less and less reflective of reality. So there's something called reality. Capture and the objective is to have the digital file software. You wanted people commit their software back to you. Know the the you know the master. So the masters nautical so in this case. The it's not it's not aww repository. It's a it's a cad file and that cadfael should be updated every day to reflect reality. How do you reflect reality? Well back in the old days people have to type in. Here's what I did too laborious now you want it. You want the scan to automatically capture reality and then update the file to show what happened to win so that that's what we're doing at at the headquarters they've said okay. This is this is the site and we want it to. Let's say capture the whole scan both horizontal and the vertical structures WanNa capture at in seven o'clock in the morning and at five o'clock at night and so the plan is the sitting some spot in the box. What's going to happen is that somebody's going to walk in the the site in the morning on lock? The gates locked the trailer. Turn on the generator and open the box and take the drone out maybe stick battery and at that point somebody will. Construction worker will touch a button on an IPAD and a plan that has already been loaded to that. IPAD from headquarters is going to be uploaded to Joan. Joan will take off. It'll do a lawn mower pattern hatter nor Peru or circular pattern or spiral pattern depending on what the site is at the point. It'll take about some between nine and ten minutes to do the whole site. It'll it'll take probably about two hundred images flying about about two hundred and fifty feet and then a land on its own at that point is someone who will put the back in the box touch another another button on the IPAD and the injury from that tyrone will go into the IPAD and then automatically buffalo to to the cloud to cloud at that point all those photos then get through a process to photograph maitree all those photos get get sort of analyzed and basically the way photograph works. It's called called structure from motion. But when and you see the same object from different perspectives using the paradox effects. You can actually see the depth you can have that so although the the photos to D- when you combine a bunch of two D. photos you end up with a three three d three D model and that'll be a point cloud or mesh or something like that. So that's automatically generated. Then that is automatically syncs up with the the cad file and when you have these things called ground control points so in the course of flying over its certain features are known had known position they have like an ex or some sort of fiduciary optical fiduciary automatically maquis recognize. And so that aligns this three d model to the same locations and so it snaps into location and now this becomes a layer in the cad file and and you can basically scroll forward and backwards through time and see how and see how things change and because these are meshes they're actually geometry's which can be snapped on. Snap and Khanin in alignment with the underlying catfight and you can say oh. That post was supposed to be here. But it's actually two meters over. There's probably a reason why they moved. That post two meters overdoes rock or something like that. Okay okay well. That's good to know now that now the digital twin says okay guys going forward. No that that post is now. It was supposed to be now over here. So when you put the trench now now put Trenton. I have to move the trenches well and you know when you're when you're going to be cutting the That you know the steel beam to go in that post note. The steel beam can have to be changed as well so now all all that information goes into the supply chain in the scheduling going forward and they make better choices because it reflected reality. Your software is open source or some of it It's it's actually not so the software and the drone so the drone might be using our the the software that we originally you know developed or or the software that we're now are working on as part of the drone code project is part of the next foundation says suffer on the drone is probably open source might be a degi vehicle which is closed source or might be one of one of the open source wants based Tantrum Code. That's just you know to operate the drone and mission and all this stuff. The data on the other hand goes into the cloud. And that's all closers. What's the reasoning behind? And the open source project. Is You just join or CO founded the foundation projects credit. Yeah Okay what have been the ramifications of the open source. I mean just to give some context. I You told quite a great story at at the Open Core Summit Guy I you know. We can't go through that in the entirety but maybe you can give a condensed highlights version of that story. Perhaps the evolution of your code being used by constituencies of various ethical. Flavors got it. Got It okay. Yeah so when I started I started as a as a hobby. Maybe I was. The editor of wired it was doing. My kids became a community. It took off and everything I do as a community has always been open source. You know whether it's you you know creative Commons or or actual code so it was just a default open because it was a hobby you know and and then as it got as it got bigger it became better organized and you know proper code development processes and and maintainers and things like that as it got bigger yet it became clear that we had the opportunity to create attention the android of ABC's Amand Aerial Vehicles. And I was like okay. Well you know this is starting to look like smartphones. Dj was doing really well and DJ. I was very much modeled modeled after apple so TGI came out of the Shenzhen Pro River Delta and was one of those companies that was formed by people who had been you know building. iphones you know in the factories around there. And for the last ten years and taking notes the whole time so very much modeled after after apple close source vertically integrated but with an apple layer. And we're like like well okay. We think there's probably room for Android as well opens good and you know it. The Nice thing about android is allows proliferation of form factors and with drones. You also do you want a proliferation of form factors you want airplanes and vertical takeoff Many want big big helicopters little helicopters. And you know we're too soon too. I mean with phones. You can argue. There's sort of maybe a limited number of form factor small medium large etc but with drones. It's like everything deliveries military terry the work so open platforms make sense when you want to separate the software and hardware that said Dj doing such a good job. There really wasn't sufficient demand. Everyone was like you know. Gosh we're just getting crushed by DJ. Nobody's big enough to be the Google of this operating system if you will and so. It was kind of academic project. I think for a long time what happened then. Is that like who wouldn't want to use. Dj who'd want open source most hobbyists for sure. It was academics but then it was also guys mm-hmm and we found that as you know because we've made drones really limiting make something. DIY becomes very cheap and open and easy and the vast majority of the uses. Were good but there. We're clearly some people who were there. were terrorists there was isis. who were we're going to be using it for real and we thought about this and we said you know? What should we be doing about that? And so we talked to our our friends at the CIA and the NSA FBI et Cetera. And we said look you know we want to be super transparent about this. We know that people are using the software for ill and thanks for telling us and we're like we don't know what to do differently we can't close it off because what's the point. We can't put in back doors because people won't use them. We can't track these things because full. Just turn off the trackers it's open source etc and they're like yeah. We can't think of anything you can do either. If you see anyone doing anything bad just let us know and so we told our community. Look if you if you tell us that you want to deliver fifty five pounds two thousand kilometers. We don't think that's a good idea and you shouldn't do that. We're probably going to tell our friends at the FBI to this is happening now. We don't really know who these people are you. Yeah so we just say hey. FBI check check this thing so we were pretty transparent. That was we're going to do. And then you know we said well you know look. We really can't stop people from using the you know the code but we can encourage people to use the code as well so we spent a lot of time in forming the US government about the advantages of the open source drones. And we said look you know right. Now you've got a symmetrical warfare you've got. You've got isis using the carbon together drones with hand grenades and then meanwhile you've got these multimillion dollar anti aircraft missiles missiles etc its disproportionate. You should probably also have cheap open drones and by the way it's free and here you go at it and to their credit credits hearts of the government including the White House during the Obama gene totally embraced openness and the Office of Science and Technology Policy actually created whitepaper encouraging. This in subsequently you know it's been a long long process of of educating the government including the military and the police etc about the advantages. So these kind of consumer grade drones. And there's we're coming around to it and you know today you're starting out There's come to call. Andrew has a drone killer drone one throw in the kind of chases and kills another drone groaned that drone happens to be based on our on our software. You know you're starting to see the small drones based on our on our software our software being the PX for software. So I think I think the message is just getting through and I think all we can do as a community sort of bend over backwards to educate those who are trusted to protect us and otherwise just remained consistent to the to the spirit of openness and not try to kind of you know sneakily put in back doors try to try to gain the system. Just just educate. It's no surprise. Surprised that you have to bend over backwards to educate the regulatory bodies. What about customers? If you're trying to sell to construction companies or oil refineries or these likely candidates as early customers of consumer drone technology. How ready are they to to buy? Not Very ready is the answer. You know this too hard things about selling to enterprise business to business and stuff you know one hard thing. It's just that sales cycle for large companies. Have to kind of you know you're asking them to build a return on investment investment decision if it changed the processes that's a long process and then when you have a brand new technology that's highly regulated. It's even harder yet. So unlike mature technologies. Where it's like I'm GONNA use this? HR software versus that HR software when you're saying like flying robots on your construction site. There's a lot of people who need to be convinced the general council the the CFO. You know the site manager you know maybe local constituencies like you know the city government etc construction workers etc so it's been a long a long process and typically to be what happens it starts with a proof of concept we won the one sort of works. Okay then you sort of extend the proof of concept and you say okay well so we flew the site we got the data and now you now the data's available to people who aren't on the site you know the client or the you know the construction manager or the CFO or whatever and they're like Oh. Okay now I can see the day that I can actually I we use that. Then they win a lawsuit because they had evidence that they were not at fault and then like Oh okay now I can see the the virtue recording us and then they're we're like okay. We're going to standardize on this. Now we're going to do more sites. We're GONNA do all of our sites this way and then like one. Construction Company sees another construction company standardizing. It's like Oh okay. We're talking ten years years. It can take you know to do that. So that's been a challenge. They actually don't care whether it's open source or not. They just care about the data and we want them to be totally agnostic about the capture side. Push a button button. Magic happens. The open source stuff is more relevant has become relevant for two big reasons one. Is that the paranoia about about China. The hallway stuff it's CETERA has led the US government to discourage the use of degi vehicles over critical infrastructure ports transportation transportation energy etcetera and also military infrastructure. So there's been this vacuum in the market. Basically a lot of fleets government grounded because of the stage I ban and so there's everyone's I was like well. There was something else out there. That's trusted and that this has been a big motive force for the adoption of the open source stuff. The second is that the FAA created in this new new certification process for drones. And we're going to I going through and the FAA also wanted to embrace a kind of an industry standard rather than a single companies one and so these open source wants are going. I'd be the first to be approved certified and so they are going to be able to one the first to be able to fly beyond visual Linux side and all those other things so in a sense the government is driving the adoption Donovan source by a banning closed the close source alternative and be standardizing on the open source. Development process is being the one that will be that they trust to be certified as businesses is become more integrated with their software than ever before it has become possible to understand the business more clearly through monitoring logging and advanced data visibility. Sumo logic is a continuous intelligence platform that builds tools for operations security and cloud native infrastructure. The company has studied thousands of businesses to get an understanding of modern continuous intelligence and then compile that information into the continuous intelligence intelligence report which is available at software engineering daily Dot Com slash sumo logic these sumo logic continuous intelligence report. It contains statistics about the modern world of infrastructure. Here are some statistics I found particularly useful. Sixty four percent of if the businesses in the survey were entirely on Amazon web services which was vastly more than any other cloud provider or multi cloud on prem deployment that's a lot of infrastructure on aws another factoid. I found was that a typical enterprise uses fifteen. Aws Services and one in three enterprises uses aws. Lambda appears service is catching on. There are lots of other fascinating. Statistics in the continuous intelligence report including information on database adoption Cooper Netease and web server popularity ability go to software engineering daily dot com slash sumo logic and download the continuous intelligence report today. Thank you to sumo logic for being a sponsor of software engineer. Daily in your talk you described competing with China on a piece of drone hardware as I think you said your first encounter with superior species. Yeah Yeah can you give me a nuanced perspective and prediction on our relationship with China as a business and technology community. Sure I some disclosures. Biggest disclosure is lifted China for four years so my children were born there. I'm a huge sign of file. I think we're going to lose in many ways to China and I'm completely okay with that. So just putting that aside you know okay you can take away my. I buy mega hat and look. I am not nationalistic. I'm British by birth living America. My children raised right. I mean I kind of like ah pro technology and just like want the best technology wherever it happens and if one country does better than other piece Gaba with you that said I'm running a business business and I want to do well and win so when I lived in China from ninety seven through two thousand and it was the kind of the dawn of the modern Chinese so I was like camping out on the floor if a hallway and it was pretty clear to me then that everything I've been told about China was wrong I was told. Oh you know. The can't innovate they only copy. Oh don't worry. They can only do hardware. They can't do software. Don't worry there the global marketing. They can't go global reach. You Know Oh you know Oh. Don't worry that understand user interfaces pretty clear all that was wrong it was like you know. Don't worry China can't ex- I could not find an ex and I was like okay so when I started the company through the are and we actually started twenty thirteen although the the community of the company started earlier but the company that you know I run today starting twenty thirteen. We're like okay. We know there's no ex- China can do everything. So how can we possibly possibly start a company that would compete with China and and I thought I think rightly or wrongly that I had thought I found the ex and the experts open source. I said you know the one thing that we have going for us is that we really understand open source. We build communities motivate communities and and for whatever reason China has used open source but they haven't really contributed to open source they haven't built a kind of internal culture of them source and so we think that open sources our secret sauce and the other thing cheaper than Chinese engineers for engineers. Okay so sadly. I think think I'm right about that. China has still failed to really embrace open source in the contributing side. That said where I was wrong is the notion that open source engineers or free engineers. They're by no means. Free engineer isn't if you're right you're basically paying people to contribute to an open source project so we didn't have the economic advantage that we thought we did. In addition at this image sure stage of the business. You can't just sort of open source the software and assume that somebody else is GonNa make great hardware. You actually had to vertically creative hardware software combination and there there we were at a massive disadvantage. TGI Is I think one of the best companies in the world certainly one of the best companies in China. When I talked about a superior species did is is a kind of a twenty-first-century Chinese company now like you know the old ones that kind of migrated this is one who is kind of you know born in the born in the clarifying fires at the apple supply chain? You know they did everything right. And they kicked our ass fair and square. They raised more money that had more engineers they were faster they innovated et Cetera. And you know on the hardware side. Although we were manufacturing in then we weren't native and so we were always going to be slower more expensive. who were less funding wingless engineers etc.? So once I realized that I was like I don't think that American hardware companies are thing. Carter should be done in China and so the next question. The American software companies. A thing and the answer is yes they still are. Why are American companies? Still thing and I think number one. I think we really do. Do I think open source really is not just sort of you. Know technically opening stuff it is the community building and the sharing and the poor quests are much more important than the downloads. If if you will and pull requests for a really unusual thing in China why would you. Why would you submit your secret bug fix to your competitors etcetera? So I think that's. That's a bit of an imaginative. We still have here and the other is that the great firewall China works both ways as software becomes more cloud and more data and less running on devices. You know you're starting to see people. People don't want to put their data in a Chinese cloud in Chinese cloud is considered subject to Beijing's influence. which is I think? It's increasing the case and so that firewall. Although there's no firewall WOM hardware tariffs aside. The really is a firewall and cloud and data. And so I think we're starting to see that you're actually to Internet's you've got the you know the bats the by do Alibaba tencent Internet on one side. Then you have the fangs. The facebook Amazon Microsoft and Google. One thing I don't know how to pronounce that exactly et Cetera. And those two worlds really. I do see them continuing for a long time. So I'm bearish on non-chinese hardware but bullish on non the Chinese software and communities. There's a whole lot market ask you. `Bout there but we're nearing the end of our time. So I just want to ask you a few things that I can also get a distinct opinion on you are deeply familiar with the scientific journals nature and science now. What's the future of those periodicals and their influence that it's a great question? So Science and nature of the two premier scientific journals journals and they're a career maker you published in science and nature and a few others tenure citations all that stuff so academian signs of particular is built on repre reputation economy. You know your your grants your positioning universities. Your ability to recruit students etcetera is all based on your reputation as a reputation station economy to carriers the reputation of the journals and their citation authority. If you will. And that's just the way. Science works also peer review. And all that kind of stuff. But but the reputation economy and reputation is formed by the journals. Nature and science will be fine forevermore but there are also about you know hundred thousand other journals below them of diminishing mincing reputation and they're the process of going into the one of those journals involving a year appear review publishing something. It costs a lot of money. Not being able to give free access to other things becomes actually a hindrance to science and so there's this open journal method. It's been taking off for the last few years especially especially in physics computer science and but now now also in biological sciences where people are saying. Well why don't we just open source signs you know and create a community appear review. You community that will edit share and references CETERA and take a monetary take all the disadvantages of the commercial journals out of that process. And that's working. Well it's slower than you would expect and it's and sewer you expect because again the reputation because the reputation economy is so entrenched in traditional academic incentives. There's really hard for someone to say. Hey you know what my great paper. I'm not going to publish nature. I'm just GONNA publish it in employs to which the Public Library of sciences an open open when access journal. I'M GONNA publish employees do now. I think that's awesome and I'm super glad they did. They may feel that it gives them slightly less credibility and slightly less chance of getting tenure and is so important important that they may choose to kind of support the old system because it's a little thing for the system but it's a lot for them so I think that long term what you're gonNA see a winnowing. It's a little bit like media so media. Newspapers are show. Unless you're the Wall Street Journal The New York Times maybe the Washington Post you know so. You're seeing three entities that remain have the reputation or the backing of Bazo or whatever to maintain. And then the San Francisco Chronicle's Michaels of the world or just host. I think you can see the same thing. In scientific publishing the natures in the sciences in the cells and a few others are going to be fine. And then there's a bazillion you you know. Smaller journals especially in fast moving industries like computer science. They're just GonNa go away and that will all go. You know the long tail of publishing is going to go open access us and the heads going to remain the premier commercial journals and in the limit in both those domains. Do we want this kind of esteemed and voice. This esteemed trusted voice. Is that useful or do we want everything to be crowd sourced and open. Well I mean. The reputation of the science and nature's comes not just from their title but because the rigorous process that go through to decide what they publish them what they don't Peer Review But but editors etc scientists compliment science wrong. That's cool that happens. That's just the way scientific works figuring out what sciences wrong and not wrong is very hard. You often need peers. Here's those peers are busy. Sometimes they're conflicted etc so. I think that we really do. Need you know editing process for science review process a way to figure out you know what sides sides is better than other signs and the question how do we pay for it. The journals pay for it commercially. The open access ones. Do It with non-monetary motivations you know just the same way. How Open Source Works Essentially non-monetary motivations but they too have a business to run and editors to pay and so? I think that the experiments can be played up. I in computer science and computer science is starting to move away from the commercial journals. Physics is also moving away from the physics journals. And so I think we're GONNA see this play out in computer science because it's fast moving. There's there's lots of other ways to discern what's real and what's not and you know. Watch that Space Watch. How the academic computer scientists start building the reputation in a more open access way and? That's going to be the path for the rest of the disciplines Chris Anderson. Thank you very much. Thank you as a programmer you think in objects with Mongo. DB Sodas your database Mongo DB is the most popular document based database built for modern application developers and the cloud era millions of developers use Mongo DB into power the world's most innovative products and services from crypto currency to online gaming Iot and more try Mongo DB today with atlas the Global Cloud Database.
647 Glass Cockpit
"This is the airplane geeks. Podcast our aim is to educate and inform you explore and expand your passion for aviation into entertain you a little along the way this episode. We explored glass. Cockpits particularly the garmin g. Three thousand in g five thousand in the news. The shape of the airline recovery jetblue scores. London slots boeing gets a very large 737. Max order a special national aviation hall of fame volunteer an update on the cessna sky. Courier possible relief for wichita aviation jobs in a fun mud for microsoft flight simulator. It's all coming up right now. Welcome to the airplane geeks podcast. This is episode six hundred and forty seven of the show where we talk aviation high max flight in winking me making faces rob mark. He's senior editor flying magazine and he's publisher of jet wind blog. Hey good evening and thank you for inviting me back. I was just here a few weeks ago. I would would've thought that was enough of refresher for you guys to say let's look at twenty twenty two. I mean i'm. I'm very grateful. Thank you. we're happy to have you here with us. Rob also with us. is max trescott. he's host of aviation news talk podcast. He's a national. See if i've the year and he's an expert on the series aircraft. Hello max rob david and everyone else around the world. Cooperate to be here. I have just come back from a full day of flying and i'm jazzed. It was just so much fun. So great to be back in the cockpit. Were you instructing. How did your student perform couple of different ones and You know they. They both could use my help. So that's good. Well that's why they pay you the big bucks right exactly. So this is david vanderhoek our aviation historian and military aviation expert. Hey everyone in all the ships finally at sea and the suez and mediterranean looking forward to a good show. It's always a good show when robson because you never know what you're gonna get as we've learned in the pre show. Yeah but it's still not as good as as it used to be one. What was that kid that we have around the youngster. Yeah what what was his name. fred I can't remember but he was fun. He was we miss him all right. Well we've got some aviation news to talk about. We're also going to talk about glass. Cockpits coming up something. I know nothing about so we've got some At least one. Maybe one and a half experts on glass cockpits here. So we'll We'll dive into that subject though. I the news. Is everyone ready. Ready from the west ready. I from the live and let's fly blog. This is american airlines reports v shaped recovery so matthew. Clint here is quoting. Exch- john nyc. And john gives us some Some data the american airlines direct bookings are up one hundred fifty two four hundred percent over twenty twenty. I'm not sure why the range and they are close to reportedly twenty nineteen levels. Also domestic load factors were eighty percent recently in. Apparently american will have all its planes flying in. May this seems almost unexpected in terms of good news. It's about time we had some good news. I think we're overdue for some some good news. Though i did read elsewhere somebody said yes but they said that american airlines is actually down about one hundred aircraft from where they were perhaps a year ago because they retired a number of Planes early so even though they're going to bring all their airplanes back they now have fewer airplanes and they they used to but yeah i think. Tsa has been saying that. We've seen i think eight straight days of increasing air traffic I was flying today. One of my flights was out of san jose international and i was there for well over an hour and i think i saw one airliner maybe to land the whole time so there were there. Were only a couple of jets over the terminal. So i was thinking okay. Things still have not recovered dramatically here. It was still really quiet so quiet. In fact that international airport they had the same controller working ground and tower. So that's that's pretty pretty slow day when you can do that at a bigger airport. Well i i think too. When they measured the recovery the it was during the spring break period. And i think the country lost. Its mind this last spring break I mean it miami. I saw story where they were trying to arrest these kids for partying on the beach or something to that effect. So i think we have to do things are getting better. I mean there's a lot of people with vaccine. I'm sorry were yes vaccines. But it's still going a little ways to go to permanently up that high i think so In some of the not the throw cold water on the whole thing but some of the data showing cases going up instead of down. We've got all the variants and so forth But guess this is being driven by by leisure travelers. Really not business travelers. And i think we've been saying that there is just so much it seems Subjectively that there's a lot of pent up desire on the part of a lot of people to get out and about and go visit relatives and Biz do the kinds of travel that they are used to doing or have done in the past So i yeah. I think People are starting to pull the trigger when i read this This piece Even though the title says american airlines reports v shaped recovery i. I don't know that. American airlines is really reporting or declaring that they've got a v shaped recovery. I think american airlines has just providing this data and the v shaped recovery is possibly just the opinion of the of the author. Here you know you know. What's really bad here max. East it always. It always hurts when we get a smart aleck like you on the radio. Who's taken statistics. And he knows how to how to tell the truth when people are trying to make got cool stuff but no that. That's that's really the trick is is to say. Yeah but wait a minute and there are so many variables in some of that that You have to take it with a grain of salt. But still i think we're we're on the on the climb but at least in the mid in the mid west. We saw kobe paces. Climb quite a bit here in the last week and I i don't know if that is because of Spring break or or whatever. Maybe a few weeks from now if it goes down i think people will say yeah. It was probably spring break issues. People want the pandemic to be over and to live. People are acting as if he is. Yeah yeah so You know cabin fever. Everybody wants to get out. And i certainly felt some of that today. I got fully vaccinated Last week was a return to the cockpit. And kind of tell you it felt good to be out there in doing the old things again as opposed to hanging around the house doing projects. But but here's here's a key thing. I learned for the many months that i was at home. I did not accomplish. Nearly as much as i thought i was going to. Which tells me you know what. I will not accomplish as much in my life as i think i'm going to. I've got to pick and choose and scale my expectations yet. Remember people were talking early on last march and april about so. It's time you wrote that. Great american novel or how many people learn to to bake sour dough bread. I don't even like soured. I mean everybody was doing that and now people are just kind of all. Wake me up when it's over. And i was gonna learn chinese man i can. I can count ten now and that's about it so that's pretty good. Okay go ahead. Oh gosh and i have practicing in so long but it starts out with this old memory. Er sun suu something other anyway. I can't remember. We don't know the difference. No you could have just mumbled anything. A lot of people would know the difference fried rice cantonese chow main. Make me hungry. Thanks a lot eggrolls So you know how to douse. You know how to order chasseur food. Okay all right right back on topic Well the the the pandemic of course has affected airlines in lots of ways a lot of Route skit Were cancelled but there's a article here from the point. Sky dot com united unveils. Twenty six new point to point routes from the mid west to the east coast and as we said business travel's certainly isn't indicating a the recovery So airlines are are left with What do we do. One of them is to try to capture more of the leisure travel recovery. So united now has these These new routes Their their point to point so they're nonstop. They avoid hubs that those are the kinds of a routes that leisure travelers certainly love but their flights from cleveland. Cincinnati places like columbus indianapolis. Milwaukee saint louis pittsburgh and he's going to kind of a wide variety of east coast destinations from from maine to florida Most of these are serviced by the bombard. Ea c. r. J. five fifty. Which is an interesting concept. I do you guys. Remember what the cr j five fifty was all about. I don't remember the five fifty designation. I remember the long ones. The nine hundred is nine hundred. There's the seven hundred and basically the the five fifty is a seven hundred. That's been reconfigured for ten first class seats. Twenty economy plus seats and twenty economy seats adds up to fifty. Which is the magic number for or scope clauses. Don't didn't know that. But you know. I think we have to mention that. There's there's something going on a related to To the portland jet poured in maine and that idea was put to us by a Contributor what's this guy's name mike Main the main man but we see portland is a destination. I didn't know that what what's of course. I've never been to portland but you know what it is really lovely part of the world. I love Maine portland area and stuff like that. So yeah it's it's pretty darn cool place to go visit and usually when i'm up there in oregon visiting no no i'm teasing i like both portland's the both the one in oregon and in In maine what we ought to do is get one of these are some of these tickets and And and just all arrive at the same time and knock on micheals door and say okay. We're here and boise portland. Would we should help the airlines with this recovery. Let's take this show on the road. Each week will record from a different location. Yeah that'd be good. Well you know and i wanna fly on the seven three seven max because i never have actually and i do you guys get asked all the time by people who would you fly on. The these are by non abc geeks which you fly unsung time. I was a common question a year or more ago but nobody seems to be asking that now as we all predicted once the planes are back in the sky people just say hey. This one is five cents cheaper. I'm taking that ticket. So yeah no. People are gonna fly these airplanes. The other airline on the move is jet blue. Another point sky article jetblue secures london. Hthe rose slots for its transatlantic debut. And this is service transatlantic service. That jetblue is hoping to introduced this year. Twenty twenty one Now what we see here is There's something called the airport coordination Limited report for a summer. Two thousand twenty one says the The report that Tells us who's got what slots in from that report. Apparently jetblue has scored two hundred and seventy slots for flights to and from london heathrow It breaks down one hundred eighty slots for flights to new york. Jfk and ninety slots for service to boston. In of course the way the slots work is you have one slot for the arrival one slot for the departure so a trip uses uses two slots to if you get allocated odd number slots. You're stuck at the airport that that was going to be my line seriously. I thought of that as a reading. Thanks airplanes just pile up. Yeah that's what happened at mojave odd number of slots damn. Yeah all those points stuck there so these thought right now you. I'm sorry. I didn't mean interrupt. Go ahead no go ahead up. I thought right now you could not fly to the uk. Aren't we still being embargoed. Essentially well these slats. Don't start immediately the in phase in so there's first off. Yeah fourteen slots. Start the week of august second. So there's some time there then. It goes up to twenty two slots for the week. Starting september thirteen and up to twenty eight slots for the week of september twentieth. And because the question is are these slots the jetblue now has going forward because usually when you get a slot you know you're kinda into keep it but apparently these slots expire at At the end of the season. On october thirtieth. So i guess we don't know what happens after that they wait for the big guys. The united's and americans and whatever to say now. Actually we want our slots back. Because now traffic's coming back. Well jetblue going to be flying. Their new airbus a three twenty one l. our aircraft on these routes and Of course that's becoming a really a really popular aircraft the a three twenty twenty-one neo in general sort of eating boeing's lunch with the with a seven three seven days but boeing is not completely out of the woods because Max west we see that south west has just placed a big order turner. Yes this is. This is really outstanding news. I saw this story. And i'm like you rica anyway. Reports came out On monday that Southwest apparently is buying a hundred seven. Three seven max jets and other buying the smaller one. The one hundred and fifty cent One hundred fifty seat version for thirty of those to show up next year. My guess is they could have gotten them next week. The way these clients are probably inventory at this point. But that's really excellent I mean this is probably the best news. We've heard for boeing in two years. I would imagine it's probably the probably it's gotta be the biggest order in two years for for sure but Yeah maybe close to the only order. not exactly but pretty close But but yeah. They lost a lot of airplanes. I mean they lost a lot of orders cancellations especially when you consider how how strong the the market was before that you could not even. It was hard to get on the list two to receive an airplane and then they said oh well never mind You know we've actually got a few extras. I forget how many they said the white tails were sitting around all over. You know the seattle area and in other places too but A lot of seven eight seven still around so we were talking about Kasha maybe a month or two ago that the southwest was also looking at airbus a to twenty and i think we were kind of speculating that maybe they were gonna using those as a stalking horse to try and get a lower price from both your looks that way up quite possibly And no surprise right i. I suspect all the major airlines Do that one of the aviation analyst scott hamilton road. There was no way. Airbus could match the financial terms. And i think what that's the way of saying is that it a boeing really needed these orders so badly that they are willing to give bigger discounts than airbus willing to give the other. Good news is that Southwest has options for one hundred and fifty. Five more ma- boeing seven three seven. Max sevens and eights and that's going to bring us up to what close to three hundred airplanes and if you look at the other orders that they already had on the books. South west has six hundred max in the pipeline through Twenty thirty one. So that's what about sixty a year for the next ten years. So that's pretty nice In a flow orders for boeing. It is in this order for one hundred. This doesn't go to the end of that backlog. Right i think I think it's reported that the deliveries of these Hundred start not all hundred but they start next year which yeah pre pandemic. i don't think like you said. I don't think you could have purchased seven three seven with delivery in the next twelve months. So what i really want to know. Is that bottle that Rob drinking from his ad in a paper bag. Because that's what it looks like hustling a paper bag. What what is that sir. I recognize that it's actually just water. What kind of bottles that is. Actually one of my daughters water bottles from somewhere. And it was the only thing i could find. Put water in it. Looks like it's wrapped. And he's having a little nip here on the show folks no no just a bit all right well at this next item on this is kind of appropriate since it Comes from the old guy on the show Rob oh me. Oh right i i thought you were going to point max. And what was the the younger brother you know. This is a story from flying magazine written by oab mark. Okay right yeah. It's really funny. And i said this in the in the story Most of the time we get press releases at the magazine their home. I mean they people buried the lede. And you go okay. What what are my what. What is the point. Oh down here. Four paragraphs from the top. They actually get to the point. And and i just. It's it's agony. Because i teach that stuff when i was at north western and i just drives me bananas but this story was so eighty Who's the ceo of the Hall of fame said. She and an intern worked on it together. And i went. Wow it it brought me into the story. I wanted to know more about alice. And and actually i wanted to know how she got to be a hundred. I mean that's the real. The real thing i want to know so backup and tell us the story. Who's i about. How how she got to be. Hundred is rob. What's your lease. you are actually see how annoying that is. That's what i did that No this is this lady. Alice has lived in In dayton which is is a pretty cool town. I i have only been a date in twice but i was there a couple of years ago and it's just filled with people that just love all things aviation and They said that Alice griffin has been volunteering in various museums around the dayton area for i forgot how many years but decades actually and she just loves every minute of it and and she's become quite a A notorious well. That's probably not a good word for a hundred year old lady but she's well known let's say in the dayton area and I think She's she's very conversant with people that come in very friendly and And amy says she wishes she had. You know more people like that that volunteer But she's a hundred years old and I just. I'm so amazed. I wish i could be doing something like that. When i'm a hundred if i live long enough to get that far but of course you guys know what. The secret to long life is no go ahead. George burns said it many years ago. Keep breathing. Yeah but anyway now so it was. It was a fun. It was a fun story. Even though i buried the lede see this is why you edit max because when you when you tell these stories you know kind of off the cuff. It's it gets a little goofed up. Well least i do from up. So y- does say that. Alice griffin volunteer than two thousand hours over twenty years at The national aviation hall of fame as you were talking about this. It reminded me of the conversation. I had with the president of the aero clubs here in the united states. I was president of the club locally here in the san francisco bay area at one point. It is really floored me. He said that when he looked at his board members the board members who were their eighties and their ninety s were a lot more productive than the board members in their sixties and their seventies. That's really weird. A said the ones in their sixties and seventies. You know they're retired. They're out there playing golf. Got all this other stuff going on but we really get the work out of the ones that are there. Ninety s which was counterintuitive. I hadn't expected that. The how many of you david have you been to dayton and wandered around and all that stuff. David's gone off line for a second tier david scott off. So i won't But i i i. It's really cool. There's stuff it's doing that town. The national aviation hall of fame of course is located adjacent to the national museum of the united states. Air force and there's There's no admission i mean. The admission is free. Parking is free to the hall of fame. Which has been around a while founded in one thousand nine hundred sixty two and of course they Honored for my time individuals. Yeah yeah They've inducted Over two hundred people Some of them. You may have heard of like the wright brothers and millionaire. Charles lindbergh. John glenn you'll armstrong. I don't think they had any Inductees last year in two thousand and twenty. They skipped no good. Good call. Yes yeah but So the last time was twenty. Nineteen and I looked it up. And let's see guy blue furred Pappy burlington charlie duke The kings martha king katherine stinson. Those are the inductees and in twenty nineteen. So i don't know what their cycle is. So i don't know when the next group is coming up at the end of may when they announced the the new bunch of inductees because one of the guys at sports and i Nominated somebody in fact just last year and they said well. It's going to have to sit now until next year because we're not doing anything so we're waiting to see if if he is inducted but I think it's it's kind of slow down right now but. Hey that's okay because as long as it gets going again yes all it matters so the national aviation hall of fame did with a lot of organizations have done over the course of the past year and they had to a number of webinars and The hall of fame has some that are archived that you can take a look at they did these in collaboration with the national aeronautics association. And there's some really fascinating Stuff in there. We'll put a few of them in the in the show notes but you can go to the website for the national aeronautic hall of fame in in find more but There was a airports airlines airplanes webinar. That had Serious aircraft co. Find co founder dale clap meyer the United airlines executive Few other names. you may recognize. They had what on space charting the next trajectory On that panel there was ellen sto fan from the dash learn space museum hoot gibson was there. How do you get a name like coot. I think you decide. That's what your name is going to be. He just do. It might have been a call. Sign right he was in the service. I think so. I can't imagine get depicted. Says your squadrons call them victims. I'm calling pay. Let's name hoot. Yeah that's not probably likely but there was another hour benaroya on sustainability innovation ensuring the future of aviation panelists there Magnetic co. roy gins areski. Was there he's been on this show before also George by another past guest. Was there ed. Bolan on the panel. few others so you can find these all at national aviation dot org It might be might be interesting to take a look at some of these webinars again. These all were recorded last year. In twenty twenty now right while the sky courier is back in the news. The cessna sky career begins final phase of flight testing. This is well you may recall. The last time really talked about the sky. Courier was back in episode. Six hundred six where we had martin tuck on his our guest. He's the technical and marketing adviser with textron aviation and of course the the cessna sky courier is Really kind of interesting high wing aircraft. That can be used reader for passengers or for carrying cargo highway. I was thought that was funny. When people say high wing cessna. Because i all except for jets i mean it's not like there's a low wing says i mean i just always thought that was weird. Was there ever allowing cessna. I i mean for example The columbia four hundred which was purchased by us s. Now that's very much a low wing. You know piston aircraft in you know you could look at most to their most of their jets. You would consider low wings or maybe middle wings. Okay picky picky picky. You're just you're just going. after me. Tonight arch amax the whole all. Just you just pick it on me. Something fierce okay. No why. I invited you back. The thirty seven is a low wing. I that's oh wow. I'll bet you nobody even knows what that is david and these days you don't ask because somebody immediately google says our so but it was a what they call it tweety bird. Yeah the tweet i think. Yeah the thirty. Seven was to tweet the The eighth thirty seven the attack version was the dragonfly or otherwise known as super tweet super twig and they were loud as hell. I don't know what engines of things had them. But all my god were they allowed on the clay drone engines in them. Did they really. Yeah no no because those were got those for sixty years ago or something weren't they will. They head drones back then. They really did me now. Who operated the drones. The air force I doodle bomb was world war. One weren't weren't you in the air force rob but i. I didn't do drones. He did he he just told. F one hundred's where to go. That's right yes. So what's going on here with the sky courier It's in its final phase of testing which means They they do. Expect the certification this year Actually an ed. While they haven't given an exact date fact. I don't know any aircraft manufacturer that does that anymore but they they expect to begin deliveries Later this year and In fact i went back. And listen to the episode that a launch pad was chatting about these sky courier with martin. And did they say that. What kind of radios. They're gonna have it at thing. Yeah if you're asking about the glass cockpits. It is g one thousand or the newer version. Which is the unexciting. And i remember when that was announced thinking wow. I'm surprised they didn't go with the you know the more capable g. three thousand but i think that's probably because it's less expensive and you know this really isn't Kind of your classic business aircraft. This really is more of a cargo in a working hauling aircraft. And so i would imagine just to keep the costs down. They went with the the g. One thousand plus i would imagine. Also the roots are going to be shorter. And you're flying at night you probably less likely to get Complicated kind of clearance so probably was a good fit. Sure and i. I think that since most of these are going to be flown single pilot a lot of young folks that are flying the caravans. They're gonna probably upgrade into the left seat in one of these and You know it's it's a it's a good match because Caravans are g one thousand so well not the old ones i mean i think fedex entrepot one interesting gauges. No you're right. But does anybody fly steam gauge airplanes anymore. While i'm sure but a lot of people fly them but they're not many of them they're sold new but i've got a question for you rob. I've been thinking about this. Why do you suppose that x is buying. I don't have the answer. I mean this is really a you know. let's speculate. Why is affects bringing on this new twin engine aircraft to either replace or supplement the caravan. What's the benefit. Because i would have thought caravans. Pretty darn efficient aircraft. So what do you think. I think it can carry Much more than the caravan Also don't be leave. The caravan allows for complete pallets The way the sky career will i mean. That's like prepackaged box. Just stuff on the back of the airplane right at. It holds three l. d. three shipping containers. Oh that i should remember that. As many times as a launchpad said i've dealt with packing threes. He likes those threes. I don't know why i mean nobody. I believe that's i believe that's the case but also reliability. I think People have more faith in the. I think we have a lot of faith in a twin engine airplane at night so but again i think it's probably load carrying might my primary guests. There was my guest to and i was thinking that they would probably put them on those routes that have you know they. They've run out of space on the caravans you know. They've had to run the caravan twice in the same night on the same route. Nell just go ahead and pop a single sky career on that particular route because certainly the operating costs per hour. I'm imagining higher. Because you got two engines instead of one so you'd have to have some kind of compelling reason to do you probably also get a little more speed out these as well too. Which is i was gonna say. I think sky career is going to be mean a to caravan school. Max what what is that thing hundred. Oh gosh no. It's gonna be faster than that. I mean i want to say hundred sixty one hundred eighty think you will get one eighty out of it. But i don't recall. It's been so long since. I've flown a caravan. Well there you have it. So i'm happy to of been able to answer that question for you. It sounds like we came to similar. Conclusions would engine. Does the caravan have two six. T six just like this one is gonna have to. Yeah yeah so that. That's an awful lot of commonality. There too is the mechanics. Don't have to learn a brand new motor The avionics will be pretty much. What everybody's been used to two cessnas. You could probably get it fixed. Almost anywhere south. We'll see right Which one is next. I'm i'm lost track Seven cohen relief bill. But but it's behind. A paywall wasn't when i first looked at it is this is Yeah kansas dot com. New covid relief. Bill would or could help. Bring back wichita aviation jobs and this is the well. The aviation manufacturing jobs protection act had been something promoted as a standalone alone but he got swept into the american rescue plan. Act of twenty twenty one. That's the covid nineteen relief package that was signed into law in so this this act. It's three billion dollar public private partnership and this will sound familiar. It's it's where the federal government contributes fifty percent of the compensation for eligible employees groups as long as the company commits to continuing employment of those workers. He keeps them employed. The fed's will pay fifty percent for for eligible. There's a number of other conditions associated with this and it doesn't it doesn't last forever. The fundings available well set timber. Twenty twenty three but an employee group is limited to receiving federal money for no more than six months. So i guess the point of the article is that you know this could provide some relief to maybe some of those wichita aviation jobs. That were lost yet. Intrigued me because i think we have heard lots of publicity around the two different rounds of assistance being provided to the airlines i last year and then again Just in the last month or two. And i don't think people are nearly as familiar with Relief that's being provided to aviation manufacturer. So yeah this is a huge deal to which itai which has been hit really hard certainly spirit had a big downturn. Boeing scaled back their orders. Lear jet course. was just You know wound down by bombard as a lot of jobs. Lost there in wichita but what this really means is a companies like spirit and textron. We'll get some money which will help them. Keep more people on the payroll this year. And that's great. Isn't this one of the bills. That were the bill. The the kansas It's a senator or congressman or something said he was the original the originator of the legislation. And then it got wrapped all the pork of the The big bill. But i've never actually seen all the claims of of this pork. Maybe one of our readers has taken that bill apart. Somewhere but I i didn't hear about all the other places. The the money is going but he did not even vote for his own bill But again i. I know the people in wichita are happy to to see that common if it in fact it comes there there are there. I mentioned. there are some interesting conditions. The eligible group of employees can't be more than twenty five percent of the of an and employers total. Us workforce that workforce as of april first twenty twenty and in order to qualify and aviation manufacturing company it must've involuntarily furloughed or laid off at least ten percent of its workforce in twenty twenty or more they must have experienced at least a fifteen percent drop in revenue in two thousand twenty over twenty nineteen. So yeah lots of conditions here. In so i think as they mentioned some some companies in wichita are saying yeah. This is great. I think we qualify for this and others are saying we need to read the fine print and see if we do or or don't so i think there's more to more to come on that all right. We were talking before the show about to suez canal in well. David you found something kind of entertaining. Maybe the only thing entertaining about a container ship stuck in the canal. There's a lot of things entertaining about a su. A container ship stuck in the suez canal. Just go look at twitter. The memes are you know there's even a website is that ship still stuck dot com but somebody microsoft had a sense of humor too. So if you have your microsoft flight simulator and you decide to go visit the gulf of aden and the mediterranean and fly down the suez. Guess what stuck in the middle of it I believe it. or not. The evergreen cargo ship the the ever ever ever given ever given is sitting there and microsoft simulator. Now for all everybody to enjoy Now what would really be kind of cool would be if microsoft had like a dive bomber version that you could take like a tb f. in torpedo it or you know various other ways to unblock the suez via flight simulator. But but you gotta give microsoft credit for having a little bit of humor and updating their software so quickly It's kind of amazing now. The real time updates from microsoft simulator. I think they should have had version where you could use helicopters to start off loading the containers. you know. see how long it takes you to lighten the ship and you know somehow we could crowdsource this whole thing. Where if enough people would do that. We could get the ship out a little sooner and not capsize it but the whole microsoft flight sim thing kind of amused me because over this last winter period. I actually bought a brand new windows. Pc with all the whistles and bells just to run flights. And that's the only thing that's on it. And i've got the honeycomb yoga in the honeycomb throttles that took three months to get here and whatever but you know what i wasn't expecting and i don't know if i told you this last night max but when i put it in i put the the software and it started up and it is not easy to to get running because there are so many options and so many variables in the in the software. I mean it was just so i did. What any good person would do because like i said no instructions absolutely nothing. I went up on youtube. And said how do i get started with mike. Oh there's a guy that's got a whole six or eight video series about how to get started because it is it's complex. It really is so. Did you get it figured out eventually. Yes and except for the first time. When i tried it and i did a a simple flight instruction flight assessed to one fifty. And and they have a voice in an animation of the instructor showing you what to do how to turn it and whatever you give it a chance go give it a try. Go see what you think and and immediately it pitched over and started going down about eight or nine hundred feet a minute as i first i pull the power back. Didn't do anything. I'm pulling the wheel back. It doesn't do anything and i'm rolling is doing any and smith. I smacked into the ground. And it says sorry. You've crashed the kidding rob. You do know that you have to plug the throttle and the stick into computer right. There's a cord. That's the fun part about having video. Is that the listeners. Don't know what kind of funny faces we're making it each other. And that's dead. That's my current favourite. Show was yours eight. There was a british comedy called the it crowd and they have never saw that. I it's very funny about two guys that are it for a corporation and they actually have an automated recording that when somebody calls downstairs to fix the computer automatically starts with. Have you tried plugging and unplugging or turning it off again if not press two so did did you ever watch silicon valley know that. That's it's actually in silicon valley but it's funny all right. We don't want to talk about tv here. Rob have you have you used. Flight sim in the past flight. Simulator in the past. Yeah i had all the early ones so so. How'd you find this new one while this. You know the latest version. Oh i mean once you get it running. I mean it's it's great. I mean the the graphics are just unbelievable. I mean you. I swear if you knew where it was. You could look for a specific boulder in in the rockies and say there's the same boulder right. I mean it's just unbelievable with the live air traffic if you're living in a busy area It inputs from flight radar twenty four all the planes that are flying near you It adds real time weather so for it's a line of thunderstorms out west You're going to see them and the sound is also really really incredible. 'cause i'd like to see a few more different airplanes on there. They don't have any business jets. And i wish they did Well maybe a. cj or something. But no falcons. No no falcons no gulfstream's i mean i wanna i wanna see that but otherwise it's it's cool. It's just complex it. How about the accuracy of the flying. I think it's good but if you go up on the forums and anybody. I'm sure some of our listeners have There are a lot of bugs and microsoft flight. Simulator twenty twenty Were people will say it stuck in a twenty degree. Turn to the right. And nothing i do can get the plugged ivonne plus dead and replugged it and it still doesn't change and then you have all these people that know. It well have. You tried the tried relieving the pressure on the invidia seventy-nine chip and then re boosting it from i don't wanna be. It guy swore player planes so it takes a little patience and when you said that you went out to micro youtube to try to figure out your solution. I thought you were going to say you went outside and you grab the first twelve year old kid. You could find running by brought him in the house and said get on on on that. You can't do that. You would be arrested for that. Well i guess you to replace twelve year old kids because that's the only way we got stuff done around the passengers they they're the ones that how this stuff worked and again. Now there's always there's always a youtube out something anything yet so okay. Here's a dumb question. Then let's move on. Why do they just not give you some kind of book like a quick start flight simulator. Twenty twenty. I mean i kept looking. There's nothing in the box Well actually it wasn't even a box. I downloaded online. They have a very limited target audience. It's people smart enough to learn all of the software all. I thought you were going to say. The target audience has a very limited capacity to give. Well okay you're probably right now. I think sometimes the geeks make things for geeks so they don't always get to make it as easily accessible to two nine geeks. I'm the simplest things. Come with no instructions. Let's talk about glass cockpits and Max we're always hearing about the garmin g this or the garmin g that are there other competitors in the glass cockpit realm or does garmon own that space. Well the interesting thing is that they I would say pretty much own dominate the the lower end of that Space if you look at the The high end you know. Certainly some of the first glass. Cockpits came out In the the military in the airline's long before we saw them in smaller. Ge aircraft like robin. I fly And so yeah y- go back. Twenty years ago garment was a pretty small player but while they are the juggernaut. Now for the know everything from the light business jet on down still not yet they are really have a presence in the airlines And there are still other competitors like well you tell me rob lacey honeywell honeywell so some of the you know the gulfstreams and palabras and stuff like that are gonna use systems from a other manufacturers. But yeah if if you look at the kind of the the three or four million dollar and down aircraft boy it's garment and yeah. I can imagine some benefits of having a glass cockpit as opposed to gauge kind of arrangement. But is it all just in presentation of information or are there are there other practical or functional benefits of these cockpits that we see now lower maintenance. I mean you don't have all these old instruments that were vacuum driven gyro powered that fail in mid flight because it got dirty or what have you and then somebody these days. You're lucky to find an avionic shop that can repair some of these because so many of these technicians are have been brought up on this for the last. Let's see when did we go Ta a max. Maybe fifteen years ago. Yeah so i have a dime came out in two thousand and three in the cirrus and then garmin came out in two thousand four in at least a half a dozen different manufacturers aircraft so it's been surprisingly a long period of time and it was a very rapid transition literally within two years everybody switched to The glass cockpits. And when they first came out i remember thinking this is just a an unnecessary use for a computer it i. I've got everything. I need with these round cages. This is a You know a solution looking for a problem. And yet almost instantly i started to learn the systems. I was really stunned to find out. No actually they really do simplify a lot of things and so instead of just presenting the information they'll take it in sometimes presented graphically in ways that to interpret So for example a great example would be the the fuel range ring on the the garment. She one thousand or the three thousand where it's dynamic in terms of changes based on the winds aloft to changes based upon your fuel flow changes based on how much fuel you have left and it will show you. Hey this is where you're going to run out of gas in the airport that you're going to you know better be well inside that ring. So that's just one example of how they take information that was available to you in the past but it's presented a way that makes it much more useful much easier for pilots to grasp what's the learning curve like. I mean we just heard that. Rob can't even get microsoft flight simulator working because there's no manual. Thank you for reminding everybody of that. Max. i'm not. I'm not telling you guys anything anymore. So they're actually actually. I think it's it's the same learning curve that that rob is on. That's probably the challenge you know. These systems are so much more capable than the you know the rain gauge systems. That preceded them that you know people really need to spend a lot more time in learning the system and they also need to do more study outside. The aircraft aircraft is a pretty expensive environment to to learn when the when the proper is turning. And it's not a great environment anyway because people are concerned about keeping the wings level and staying alive and it's a little hard for them to use Hundred percent of their brain power to to learn new things half of is just based on you know keeping the wings level and keeping the aircraft in flight. So that's really caused a need for and other kinds of training material So you know learning to fly glass cockpit very different than twenty years ago where people could show up at. The airplane learned to fly the airplane and go home now. You really need to do some some work in time you'll between because there's just so much to learn. So what are you have to do with all this backs cuts. That's all i do is teach people to fly this stuff i. I don't know if we mentioned your book. Did we mention his book yet. Oh well there's a new one. There's a new one so Back in oh six brought out. Max trescott she one thousand perspective glass cockpit handbook. Couldn't say that very well class cockpit handbook and last week just announced The new Truscott g three thousand and five thousand glass cockpit handbook so these are the systems that go in slightly more expensive airplanes than You find the g. one thousand As i first became acquainted with a system almost three years ago. When i got type rated in the series vision jet and it was kind of interesting learning. The g. three thousand. I've talked to other people recently. Who started training out and they had the same experience that i had which was gosh. This seems a little bit different than what. I expected a little bit more challenging than than i thought to learn and i think it's because once we have our head wrapped around how the g. one thousand worked in the garment four thirty which was similar. And so on that. It takes a while to kind of Undo the learning that we've had there and then kind of figure out how to learn a new system in and the training part that you mentioned is really is really so critical because people that have learned microsoft word for instance Most people learn maybe ten commands that they use all the time and they just they often close copy. Save you know Select and and all the and they just use those over and over and when you ask him about adding a a text box or something to a graphic and they don't know if i remember that but it's the same way on these things and then you and you say hey i i know it. It's fine i can do all of but then you get put an a corner where you need some function that you maybe have only tried once or twice and that was a year ago And you need it right now. you go off. I mean and that's where people don't understand the complexities of these things. As mac said it is so important to spend time on the ground in a ground simulator. just learning naballah g. as they button or button. -nology i guess it's kind of the same thing but Can i say biology. Oh it's a common phrase. Yeah i think in button. -nology is one that people also use when they're talking about this system because yeah that's just takes a lot of practice pushing the buttons to try and remember them. I don't know about you. But enough i do at once. Usually i'm gonna remember. You need to do it several times. But i think your analogy to to microsoft word is absolutely spot on. I think we use less than five percent of the commands available and things like microsoft word. And i think a lot of people when they transition into glass cockpit regardless of what it is they may just know the basic stuff that's required to to fly the airplane and for systems g one thousand g. Three thousand five thousand. There are more than twenty five pages of information available in the display That has all the the non-flight instruments stuff so the multifunction display. And i tell people that most of the time i spend is on three of those roughly twenty five pages and you can just see when you fly with people they kind of know couple pages and then there's those other twenty three or four that took don't know very much about So that's kind of like the microsoft word and yeah you can get by without knowing you know many of those but it really helps because there's a lot of extra value buried in the system if you get to know those. So are we going to see a max trescott g. Three thousand five thousand set of videos on youtube. Not at this point though i spend more time on the on the books in the video steph But i was just going to come back to I've mentioned before people who said that initially seemed harder for them when they started the g. Three thousand i think what we've all found out is once. We spent the time learning how it was different from the g. One thousand that we found out eureka. It's actually when you learn how to use it a lot. Easier to use than the one thousand. Been and i think the the big thing is not just that it has a touch screen interface. Because i think a lotta people kind of go ho- how touchscreen you know that i don't think that automatically makes something easier and simpler but what it did allow them in this particular case was to get rid of the push knob to get a cursor push knob to get rid of a cursor which every pilot who's ever flown garment is is familiar with and what that allowed them to do was to reduce the number of controls. They had on the box. Because when the cursor is showing the controls do one thing when the cursor is not showing. They do another thing and anybody pilot. Who has done that knows that even if they're experienced they're still certain percentage of the time when they get that wrong and they're like nuts. You know the cursor was on. I didn't realize that. You know that. Cursor on chris off thing which drives people crazy. It's gone you don't have that the ci three thousand g five thousand you know you just touch the things that you want to act. On and ultimately things are are faster. I think it's a little bit easier and it's also Very similar to the replacements for the old garment four thirty and five thirty the new Gts six fifty gt n seven fifty. A those units use some of the very same software code. That's in the g. Three thousand ci five thousand and some of the same icons so that's actually makes it a little easier for people who are used to using those systems when they step up to use the systems. They might finally turbo proper jet. What's the difference between the g. Three thousand g five thousand the if you just two thousand that's good you know it's If you were to look at them externally you wouldn't see any difference. And if you were to push the buttons you would find hardly any difference. The difference is really in the The type of the aircraft that they go into so. I think the cutoff is six thousand pounds. It would be Sort of certified under part twenty three with the faa. You get planes. That are heavier than that than they. Gotta be. certified under part twenty five and the g. Five thousand is just meant for the heavier aircraft. That g three thousand met for the the lighter aircraft so if know one system you pretty much already know the other system. Yeah there might be a couple features you'd find in the five thousand that art in the g. Three thousand but usually those are of esoteric things specific to particular airplane. Can i do my role as the person asked a stupid questions. Stoop go ahead what to tell you. What's it do well. I think probably the easiest way to explain. It would be for pilots that are used to flying around gauge airplanes. A high percentage of them currently carry Ipad apps or android tablet apps within things like four flight garment pilot and those are all singing all dancing applications that have buried in them. Every single thing that a pilot could conceivably want information about So information about the maps that you used to have to buy information about the height of the terrain information about weather information about traffic information about airports So the identifies the length of the runway the elevation of the The airport the numbers of the runways links of their runways the charts that you fly for instrument approaches into the airplanes. Everything that you would find in one of those apps is built into the airplane. Which is why i find that. For example i use those apps much much much much less what i'm an aircraft with a glass cockpit because all that stuff is pretty much built into the to the airplane for me and you can really think of it as kind of computer automation for airplanes. If you know all the buttons to push wow you can really sit back. Let it do all the work for you. So for example some things that were complex in the past of a controller says Cross fibi at Three thousand feet. Gosh you may not know can get down fast enough to cross fibi. You know three thousand feet. Well heck you can just program it into the system in make do that. In fact you could also program at to cross a dozen different fixes at a dozen different altitudes And so there's just a tremendous amount of configuration and it allows you to Can automate a lot of the instructions. That air traffic control gives you. That were a real pain to do in the past which wherever never really quite certain whether you pick to achieve what you were asked to achieve that needs to be the test in some of the jets that i started to fly when house in the right seat and you get same thing Cross eighties to denver at and maintain flat oval to four zero. And you go and other guide. Look over and go so one. Should i start down. It's gone Eight seven miles a minute and were at thirty seven so we've got to lose thirteen and But the wind and he goes yeah. Okay i'll tell you learn to do it in your head and but now like macs just scan it says right over there and it points to the place on the map says when you get here pull the power back are you can tell the autopilot when you get their start down any. Oh that's pretty cool. Yeah that's that's really a great example of exactly the the problem with in you know the cross as you said eighty east up often often. It's not as i gave the example across three thousand fits across three thousand ten miles before you get to fibi. It's like oh great. Now now i've got to create this point that never existed with reference to some fix which is well established. And i've gotta get my altitude or sometimes my speed. You know you have to cross that fix at a certain altitude and a certain restrictions as well so especially going into big airports. The arrival procedures are pretty complicated. And it's no wonder that you often have to pilots in business jets airliners because man you're like a one armed paperhanger sometimes trying to keep everything going as you're descending on the arrival because it's complicated and then of course they give you changes right after you hit everything programmed up and was ready to go. It's like oh now do this and you're like oh great whites tell me that before and start all over again. Is this book real expensive. Not muslim get to the heart. Not for you rob. You already have one. Yeah no it's a. It's a little bit more expensive than the g. One thousand book was but then it's being used much more expensive airplanes. So yeah it's forty four ninety five so you would never is true. You would never retrofit a plane with a glass cockpit. That didn't have one or upgrade the glass cockpit for one that did have one right you. Would you would get this with your new airplane. That used to be the case but now there are retrofits available for a lot of different aircraft. So there's a g five thousand retrofit program available for older citation excels and xl losses. As well as what beached yet four hundred eighty and one is. I think And even one thousand has had a retrofit program for probably close to ten years. Where if you had a king air you could take it. In and spend a fortune in your king air would come out with complete new glass cockpit and then over the years Garment in particular has come out with experimental so non certified version for an experimental aircraft that people who are building their own planes canal. Put in glass cockpits that are intended for that particular market so yeah. The world has changed. There's a lot more flexibility. You're right in the early days you had. You had to buy an airplane if you wanted to get a glass cockpit now you got a little bit. More flexibility to to put one in so a glass cockpit includes hardware and software. So when you have a glass cockpit. How does that work is that a is that a one time acquisition or do you licensed the software and pay a period a yearly fee or something what about what about software updates. I was all that handled at great question so we should probably take one step back and say typically the last cockpit is going to be something that's got multiple computer screens in the airplane and probably the most common configuration would be one screen in front of the pilot. That's got the digital representation of all the flight instruments another screen which has all the maps and kind of all the other value added the traffic. The weather the terrain the the airport information. And then you may have almost certainly an autopilot to go with it as well so that would be your most common configuration and then the gps would be buried in there somewhere In fact it might not even be a separate box. It might just be behind the panel and you access it through the controls that are you know on the the pf d. and the the the two displays it we were talking about all of these systems Come from the factory loaded and ready to go but then what you're going to find is database is start expiring as short as every twenty eight days so interestingly both airplanes that i flew in today had databases expired for days ago. So i thought okay. Kind of interesting There are some things you're allowed to do with expire databases. Which is what we were doing. there are other things where yeah just doesn't make sense to to fly with an expired database typically if you're flying instruments even though there is a legal work around for flying with them. It's very very difficult to know for sure. If you've met that test so i would never fly. I f r with it expired database via far with expired databases. Yeah that's that's certainly a lot more workable enter. You do pay subscription fees to get these databases updated every year and similar every twenty eight days others such as obstacles in a a new towers were not built quite as frequently. Some people may not update that but every six months or year you've got terrain databases. Fortunately the rocks don't usually get higher and lower much over time except when you know you have earthquakes and volcanoes things like that. I think another thing too is is the weight Because the electron. Ix are much lighter than The the old vacuum instruments. Not to mention the old radios. I mean that used to weigh know. Ten twenty pounds for one radio box stuffed in the stuffed in the panel and when something breaks now it's They pull one card out. Stick another one and go. Okay you're back in business and somebody else fixes the old car they dump it or whatever but it It doesn't take long usually when there's a problem to to fix it but i'm sure there are plenty of examples of. Oh yeah it does because it realized that so many things that we've seen fact that's what i was dealing with with with flight. Sim is he said. You know we know where the parts are that we need. But they're on a boat coming from china or from south korea or something like that and and and so you just have to wait sometimes but but again i think the lightness. I mean back in the old days when when you were flying instrument approaches there was one sheet for every single instrument approach of every airport in the country in the world it depending on how you subscribed and we used to carry around these big heavy jet books and they had to be updated. Were you want. Let's see that one that one comes out and this one goes in gets all computerized now. So you see. Computer generated representations of the approach plates and egypt. Take it for granted you god knows how many pounds of paper we don't carry anymore because of that so there's just oh wow that's pretty as maxine you see so many cool things you go. Oh wow i didn't know it would do that But it it takes brain power to keep yourself up to date on this stuff. So i admire you for doing this max. You must have an incredible mind for details of of things like this. Well the funny thing is when i first wrote the g. one thousand book back in two thousand six. I had just spent a week at cessna in training to learn the one thousand. I remember thinking when. I got home point this this i thought i was a smart guy but this is really hard. This is much more difficult than i thought that i realized oh there just aren't any really good materials around that i realized my twenty pages a note. Oh no i guess. I could take those notes into a book and so what i did my training. The vision jet g. three thousand. Initially i found it a little bit challenging than i thought. Okay there. There are some really great insights. I've learned along the way. And i think that's the thing with any of these Glass cockpit systems often. There are three different ways to do one particular thing and all you really need to know is one way you don't need to know all three different ways to do it and yet some of those ways are more efficient than others. And i think it's probably the the engineer guiquan me which is always kind of looking for all right. What's the most efficient way in to do this. How do i. How do i reduce this this operation by two key keystroke so that it doesn't take his money button pushes to to make it happen. So that's what. I'm always looking for. When when i'm writing these books as the the little tips and tricks and also get them from other instructors around the country so for example one of the reasons. I love teaching at the series pilot proficiency programs these we can long programs were sears pilots. Come in for the weekend. Is i get to talk with other instructors around the country and you know we ended up sharing all these tips and learning things from each other and you know those ended up in the in the books as well to part of. It's an exercise for meat. Alertly systems if i written the book. Hey i've i've had to figure out all this stuff and the challenges we look at g. Three thousand and five thousand currently there in twenty three different aircraft at some features are sounded founded some aircraft summer not founded others. And then you look at the software versions the way the features are implimented. Change over time So the way it was done two years ago maybe a little bit different than the way it's done this year and the pace at which the different air framers really the software versions varies. So it's just You know it's a multidimensional problem which makes it a little bit challenging to kind of describe comprehensively. Yeah this is. The way most likely has done in the particular airplane that you're flying. Well i think you've said this in the past that the design is is fairly modular right in that you can have different configurations and different aircraft and it's still the same product it is. It's almost as if a garment offers a menu of choices to the framers and they pick and choose the best examples. Just look at the number of displays in the aircraft. Most of the g. Three thousand implementations have three big displays. And you go to the series of vision jet and they've got two big displays and then you go to the the f five fighter which has been retrofitted at least twenty thousand aircraft owned by tac air. Have the three thousand. Those have a single display per seat. And then you look at the number of touchscreen controllers some of the airplanes have to some half three And then down to the features not all features are implemented by all the different manufacturers and since most of the modules are l. r. Us line replaceable units. But it comes time to apparently systems often you just swap boxes. Pull out one bad box. Put it another bad box and the you know that now. Your aircraft is back up and running in virtual period of time. So what you're telling me is if i have an f. Five i can gavin garmon three thousand in it so i can do air to air combat. Does it does it. Select my missiles for me to switch to guns. I mean. I need to know more about this. Suddenly i suddenly i have an interest in in. Why are well. It's a really great question. What i can tell. You is from a design standpoint that when cirrus was putting together the vision yet they decided to really reduce the number of switches that you have in the cockpit if you look at most jets rob. You'll know this. Every square inch of the jet is covered with switches because some engineer came to there and said hey look there's an empty spot we can put a switch there and instead every switch your divisions yet had to earn its right to exist. otherwise it was just implemented through the touchscreen controller which reduces the number of switches really cleans up the layout so david. I haven't been in the five implementation so they could have theoretically put the missiles on the touchscreen controller. in which case you wouldn't have a dedicated switch. Yeah well i mean six sixties aviation ation technology i mean and having painted cockpit in forty eight scale each one of those knobs switches has gotta be a different color so you can see it when you look at the cockpit so i a glass. Cockpits are much more interesting. Because they're when they're turned off they're just a black panel. There's nothing really exciting about them. Tac air did it. I'm pretty sure. I remember the tax. Did it be so for Their navigation across country when they're doing across countries to go from various bases to civilian airports excetera. They had to integrate into the national airspace. So it was a great way to get them to have some civilian technology to interact with. Atc in places other than military airfield. Yep absolutely we mean. That's the nice thing is that you take a system that It makes it suddenly easy to navigate around the entire world and we all know that. A lot of these old fighter jets. They weren't long on navigation capability that was not their key role. the cure all was fighting capability. All right well that sort of to wrap this up mexco. Who is the book for in house. It used is it a is it the quick start guide that rob which he had for microsoft flight simulator. Or is it a training manual. How is the book best used. Well probably two different ways. One for folks that are trying to learn the system can help them spin up quickly on it and then to just a reference for for everybody. So what i've done is really made sure that the index is on all. My books are quite comprehensive in all i can tell you. Creating an index is the least fun part of writing the book. These indexes run about eight pages at. There's any feature you wanna find out about. Just go to the index first. And then you're got to quickly find it and i know a lot of people will keep my books in the cockpit with them so they may read them initially on the ground to To learn about it but then they'll just keep them in the cockpit flying along and you kind of go like. oh yeah. how do i do this. Boom you just go to the index and look it up. Let's get max. He knows everything. Well you know. I have a really focused for the last fifteen years just on teaching glass cockpit aircraft. So i i. I certainly know a lot about them. Nobody knows everything about them. And it's constantly changing and that's part of the fun challenge about it as well you know. Today i was flying in a a perspective plus class cockpit and i've been doing a lot more perspective than perspective plus in the last year so it was like took me just a little bit longer to figure out how to do something but then it makes it a fun challenge. He and the best place to find the book is where backs trescott dot com. Yep that's the easy place to go. Just go to max truscott dot com and you can click on any the pictures of the books along the right hand column there. It's also i'll just go ahead and mentioned the eight hundred number which is eight hundred two four seven six five five. Three and people can order the book there who answers that phone. You answer the phone. There is a warehouse which stocks the books for me out in ohio. So it's not a way to talk to you know though they know how to get a hold of me if if you have a question when she audio book coming out i don't know we'll have to i. I'm thinking i probably need to rob to You know to team read that with you know we. We could sit there and do our our older brother younger brother act in kind of argue about it. it'd be like click and clack tap brothers reading an audiobook max. I don't do that well. Of course it will. Don't you remember back at mit do that. It was the two of you guys. Sorry i'm sorry folks even mentioning that had of course. That was the car talk show which was originally a radio show and i guess is now available as a podcast so very very famous Radio show right. What's up with the geeks. Rob anything Interesting from chicago. Actually we were talking earlier about National aviation hall of fame and They're doing a webinar tomorrow. With a number of aviation journalists You may remember a couple of years ago. I started a facebook page Twenty-first-century century Aerospace and we were trying to figure out how to help People that wanted to become aviation journalists or dig more into it would be able to make it. I mean how we're how do they get started. What do they do. And that was really a problem. I mean it It kind of lost a little momentum but We were a bunch of us are going to talk tomorrow. Thanks to the organizing from national league hall of fame and national aeronautics association And they're all kinds of saying gee maybe we can come together and figure out a way to do this. And i said i hope so because it's not near as easy as it sounds so that's on for tomorrow. We'll we'll give somebody the the url for that once it's Once it's also up on the aviation hall of fame website. That'd be a lot of fun Yeah hopefully you'll miss. They don't say if they don't say things like well. Rob what do you think we ought to do. Yes but it's it's time it's time it's nice for the help Little programming note which. I'm going to change right here right now. On the fly it originally started with no episode next week but i think We have some prerecorded pieces one from mica one from launch pad. And i think we're instead of having no episode next week will slide those two next week. Just a super super short episode And then the following week the episode that would come out on april fourteenth David and i interviewed the ceo of iris automation. And that's going to be an episode of the uav digest. But i think we're going to do is make that also the episode for that would come on april fourteenth now you may not be interested in drones and unmanned aircraft and things like that but this is a really interesting conversation. John is Cf is a pilot He comes from a long mandate nation background. In what iris automation is doing. Now is detecting avoid technology in. I think pilots who fly in the cockpit of aircraft of course are very concerned about Being able to detect and devoid drones and for drones to detect and avoid them in. So it's a. I think it's a very interesting conversation and like i say John comes from a background that You know it makes him more like airplane geek than a drone guy in in some way. So i think it'll be of interest to you. And then the following week the episode that would come out april twenty first That will probably be With our Son and fun show. We're going to go live on on wednesday april fourteenth at six o'clock or is launch pad says eighteen hundred hours at sun. You'll never hear me say eighteen hundred hours. Because i have to do the math in my head to figure out what time of day that is so I isn't that equal to four bells. Oh god don't make it even more complicated. I used to know the bells. Wow i haven't thought about it. That really i hadn't thought about that in a long time David's counting right now to figure out. I've just made that up. I don't know what to try to remember with my father. Being a sailor. I should know this like at the top of my head. Yes no so. Three with four would be four bells. Eight would before bells twelve would be four bells so it's two bells now right. I'll take your word for the bell tolls so that's the april twenty first episode. It'll be from from sunan fund possibly some interviews conversations with some others then in then wednesday april twenty eight. The band gets back together. And it'll be a normal show not that the others in between the abnormal but really. We're normal now who say. When have we ever had a normal show. She's that mean that usually means rob's not there. I think it means that the meds will have arrived. Is that what you're saying. Rob that's a compliment. Rob is like passing out. Oh right i knew that. Hey i have you heard anything about ivar hoc- maybe this year or we're jose. Yeah not yet. The website has though information Well they do say that something along the lines of you know. They're watching the situation. They'll they'll make a decision. So yeah it's That's june usually which is gonna come up pretty quick. I don't think if we haven't found notification about it yet. I don't i mean yeah. It seems kinda second half of the year. We're all going to be very very busy. That's true to make up the first half of two double up and last year. Yeah right little bit a listener. Mail tom roka's see citizen article from david's favourite online publications. The drive this is this cockpit view of a c. Seventeen wild ride through star wars canyon is bunkers so David star wars canyon. Describe that for us well It's called by other names as well. The jet i transitioned star wars canyon. It's for low level practice in california. You're much on a higher altitude than the aircraft flying below yusuke. Great great pictures and it's for high speed low level practice. It's like in wales. Do you also see those great pictures of like f. fifteens in tornadoes in star wars canyon is the us equivalent of it. And it's called. The jed eye transition units which is another term. They throw around for yankee and banking down below the top of the mountain so this is a pretty interesting footage. It's from a c. Seventeen and a lot of c. Seventeen pilots seem to think that they're jet jocks. You know so they. They just yank in bank interesting. I watched that it scared. The crap out i mean and not just because of what you see out the windows but i think i've i've gotten so trained to things that while they're cranking and banking and all the other junk you hear the system. The cockpit going there terrain terrain right to low terrain. And i got off and and that is a big airplane to be to be cranking bank in. Its a fighter plane. I i and what point the whoever shot the video kind of looked around the cockpit. And there's a guy way over on the right side. He's just kind of he doesn't look too happy. Because i thought that would have been me and i'd have my eyes closed. Well the reason he's unhappy as he's not in control he's just along for the ride. I think any of us who are pilots. If you're in that kind of situation you don't want to be along for the ride you want to be in control and you'd like to use that control to get out of there. I just wanna ride like they special ops guys do on the back of see back the one thirty down the path they just sit on the back deck strap in and just go for it. We'll have the video in the show. Notes him again. This is a little different in that shot from inside the cockpit as you gathered from from the conversation here. Most of these videos that you see from this location are from those mountain tops. Those hilltops of of the jets flying below you so this is from in the cockpit But there are other c. Seventeen videos out there and you can just search for those and you'll find them Patrick wiggins wrote to us this is An article in clean technica groundbreaking h. Three ex-motor brings electric aircraft. One step closer to reality. so there's a startup. it's called h three x which. I don't know what that means. I'm sure it means something. But i didn't. I didn't make the effort to figure out why it's called h three x but they have developed what they say is an electric motor. But it's got some really interesting characteristics in it develops they say more than three times. The power of most commercially available motors. So it's a super super efficient electric motor because it's efficient. The weight is less in. So that's where we get to the aircraft application normally talk about the energy density of batteries when we're talking about electric aircraft technology but this is kind of looking at the other part of the equation. Which is how big and how heavy are the electric motors. And how much power do they produce. I don't know if you guys looked at the details of this at all. I didn't look at this particular one but in the past when i've looked at electric motors for aircraft. I've been surprised by a couple of things one. If you look at for example. Typical piston engine in a. You probably ways. I don't know three hundred and fifty pounds and classically. These electric motors have been on the order of forty pounds. And it's to me just been shocking. At the weight reduction who would have thought that a an electric motor. That light could replace all of the. You know the way that you have of a conventional piston engine and then you've also got the reliability you you have very few moving. Parts and reliability in general is driven by the number of moving parts that you have a system and so. I think we can reasonably expect that. There's going to be very little maintenance required on electric motors and that they're going to last much longer than classic piston engines. So all of this is very exciting. Now the flip side of this of course is that batteries are so much heavier than the fuel at they replace. So you need that weight savings on the motorcycle because you're going to more than make up for it on the of the battery side. Unfortunately and i think the number. I saw recently was at batteries. Way something on the order of thirty times the weight of the jet fuel that they replace. Well there's some Some data about the output per kilogram of these motors This particular motor that they've developed as an output of thirteen kilowatts per kilogram. And they say as far as aircraft applications are concerned. The benchmark is twelve kilowatt hours per kilogram. So it beats that. But here's the real kicker the best production motors today. Only offer three to four kilowatt per kilogram of continuous power. So this is huge now. They say it's not cheap. It's a premium priced item. Part of the reason is that the copper coils in. This battery are three. D. printed parts of the efficiency comes from cooling and they say cooling is a big factor in the size and weight of an electric really. You have three different components. You have the motor. You have a power delivery system in a gearbox in what they say is typically each of those components has its own cooling regime its own housing and then they're all bolted together. So i guess this is integrated where all of those components of the electric motor are integrated and and share a common cooling methodology. And then. of course you've got these three d. printed copper coils which is which is not inexpensive. I checked out there. webpage three or h. Three x webpage. And we'll have not only the article from clean technica but the website the three x website and also they have a promotional video that gives some more information but it definitely a promotional video. But i always like to look at who are the folks that are involved in startups like this in this case It's three engineers. They're all engineers from the university of wisconsin madison. Those other folks. Thanks patrick for setting that a lot. It's really interesting interesting article interesting. read partway through. You're talking about that. I was thinking how exciting it would be for the people who are involved in this kind of stuff. I mean i think engineers really groove on working on new cutting edge kinds of stuff and here. This is a rapidly emerging area that didn't really exist in the past we. We didn't use electric propulsion for for aircraft until fairly recently. So what a fun exciting challenge for people to get to work on things like this so if you're listening. I hope you're excited. Because he recognized that you're doing some pretty cool stuff. yeah now. patrick sent another email in. This has more of a Space twist and he notes that the wealth. We're talking about the The rover on mars perseverance. And of course the ingenuity helicopter or drone that We'll be taking flight sometime. I don't know in a month or something like that. I'm not sure exactly yeah. It's early early on april. Oh is that early in april. I and that's what i heard but Well there's actually a part of the year a piece of the original wright flyer Th it's On i guess it is on ingenuity david. It'll be on ingenuity. Yeah yeah and it's like a piece of fabric or something piece of fabric from The original one thousand three right flyer and they it so basically orville and wilburs product Will be flying on mars when ingenuity takes off. And i guess about two weeks when we record this where it will be doing its three-meter hop for thirty seconds And land i believe. Perseverance is Still on its way to the airfield. What they're calling the airfield which is a piece of flatland that they can deploy engineering e. She's sitting underneath perseverance They dropped off the protective shell causing lots of people to be upset that we were littering on mars And then they're going to set ingenuity down. Perseverance will back away and then Ingenuity will take flight and And you nudity will have rotors fly spinning faster than any other helicopter because the air on mars is so less dense as it is here on earth that speed to be even possible so winged flight might be a very distant future for mars because of the atmosphere so it's a whole new learning curve and it's kind of nice to think that the wright brothers you're getting rewarded for their flights you know yes. Patrick by head did not explode when you said Have whitehead's fabric was on ingenuity. I just ignored it and took it. And which because we know that people from connecticut put guns on drones not fabric. I don't know what happened to that kid but yeah and nasa says For the ingenuity flights are incredibly modest. A think they've they've said that they'll consider it successful if the thing just has one flight up lands and survives the landing. But they're talking about a. I recall a thirty day. Win a flight window And most likely there will be multiple flights but they're they're not very The altitude is not very high. The the i will be night. Three three meters or nine feet proximity. You're taking off your hovering in your landing back down. And and hopefully they. Don't take a lesson from spacex and an on on everything right and when it hits the ground that's when it self destructs. But but ginny per cr chugging around and it's exciting spaceflights gotten exciting again. You know when you wanna watch spacex in their flips and in their landing in the think of you know everybody on this. Podcast is all old enough to remember. Viking landing on mars. What a amazing feat that was and that we've come so far now that we've got cars all over the place you know and driving all over another plan. Now we're going to have an aircraft flying over another planet. it's pretty cool in heck. I mean robbery members. Vikings landed on greenland. I mean that that's very good very well done. Oh i mean so this is this is. This is why you invite me back. I mean no. I think we ought to take a short read a listener poll. How many of you appreciate the fact that they just bring me back on this show to taunt me and and actually you know what. Maybe we shouldn't ask that question. I would yeah never mind Okay no actually and david one thing. I thought when i saw that spacex booster come back down and land wo- it is like a scifi movie. Come from the sixties. Yeah yeah that's the way. They all landed in the sixties. Yeah exactly but just where. Everybody's listening robin. I are really good friends. We we do. Enjoy each other. And i would never say this to anybody except a really good friend like rob with friends like that. Do you see the knife folks. And how the quickly they're twisting it. Max and i used to be very good friends. Oh oh i crossed the line. I just one last comment on On aircraft on other celestial bodies is coming up actually in quite a few years but super exciting is An another helicopter another drone Much larger planned for a landing on titan on saturn's moon titan That's quite a few years off. As i recall the the helicopter. There is about the size of the entire rover. That's on mars right now. So this is much much bigger deal And you're talking about something. That's the size of a small suv Perseverance is not a little vehicle. Right right so yeah. Exciting stuff coming up. But but that'll be interesting isn't tightened. Isn't the atmosphere all methane or something or no. Titans got Water in but it's a denser atmosphere. Show it should be easier to fly than on. March was the i think. Yeah amazing stuff. All right we're going to close it up. Thanks for listening to the airplane geeks. Podcast find a sit airplane. Geeks dot com. This is episode six and forty seven. So you can find show notes. Airplane geeks dot com slash. Six four seven have a lot of lot of articles lot of resources number of videos in the show notes so be sure to check those out in of course. Our email is the geeks at airplane. Geeks dot com right. Tell folks where they can find us in. Rob mark will start with you. let's see A multiple choice. That can be a okay now. They can fly find me. A flag dot com jet wind dot com and on linked in instagram. And she put in jet wine. I'm about to pop up somewhere. There right he and max trescott. How about you. Well first of all. I have to thank rob mark because we didn't mention this. If you look closely at the cover of the book the book is actually endorsed by rob mark. You put that on the cover. Didn't you right there on the cover yet because you know he's he's hot stuff when it comes to aviation. I mean it doesn't get much bigger than that. I mean if you're trying to think of you know the most famous the The the best reputation in the funniest guy out there. Who wouldn't you want to endorse your book other than rob mark. I heard that you wanted to put that on the back cover but rob twisted your arm for the front. Is that true. That's that's almost as funny as that time. We were in our house for the first time and david said look. That's an eighty three eighty and it's really. It's really neat. It's the biggest airplane or whatever and then he looked at me. He's oh you flown. When that was that was one of those as the words. Were coming out of my mouth. My brain decided okay. This is a and literally. I had known rob. I had just met him ten minutes before in terminal. We were walking out to the car. I just picked him up at the airport so much. I first impressions the idiot as route but y you know i like. I like the mutual admiration. Society of the tweet. Tweedle dum and tweedle dummer. I'm not sure who witch who rob. I think he's talking about us. Okay well david used to be a nice guy to exactly acts. I mean you're the only one left you've got gotta say something that You know everybody just picks on me. Oh no c. c. Max is a little more subtle rob he gets. He gets his twinges in things by editing. You in or out the power. We all really do like each other. We've gosh we've known each other. For how many years. I mean i came in at episode fifty. I think with was dan. Was dan already on when you started david now. Well yeah you guys were both on. I mean you guys started you guys. The week you guys started was my very first read on air history segment. So yeah we all sort of that started you mean started it started as hosts but both were co host. Yeah yeah well. Back to mr trescott. So you're gonna tell us where we can find you. Oh yeah right. That's right you can find me at max. Trescott dot com. If you want to buy the book. Just click on one of the pictures there and Thank you very much hope. Enjoy it very good. And how about you david You can find me at the american helicopter museum and look for expanded hours. Were brought up that way. But you can find me on linked in on twitter on facebook And on our slack list and team and you do that by sending us an email to the geeks at airplane geeks dot com and last but not least you can find me talking about drones and unmanned aircraft with as max flight on friday mornings on the uav digest very cool and you can find me at thirty thousand feet dot com. All words spelled out in you can Find our places. Where where i hang out there so please join us next week. for probably a really super short episode Something about aviation on the airplane geeks podcast by re body. Gave the blue side up everybody. Thanks for listening