14 Episode results for "International Association Of Chiefs Of Police"

A National Disgrace

The Derby City Betrayal

24:16 min | 1 year ago

A National Disgrace

"Hello I'm Laura Ingle Bill. Welcome back to another episode of Fox News Investigates This is the third installment in our series on teen sex abuse. In the Louisville Metro Police Department in the first episode we heard from two alleged victims of a former Louisville officer who detailed graphic experiences of abuse and rape in the second lawyers politicians detailed an alleged plot to cover up the misconduct. A warning that some of what's discussed in this podcast is graphic in nature and may not be suitable for young audiences. Fox News has reached out to all parties central to the scandal for a comment. Some chose not to respond. And now here's our reporter Andrew Kuyper. Hello I'm Andrew Kuyper. Thanks for joining us in this episode. We're going to hear from an academic and investigative. Let's get a journalist. Both of whom have deeply investigated. Instances of sex abuse in youth explore chapters across the nation in the first episode. We heard from two who alleged victims of a former Louisville officer with detailed graphic experiences of abuse and rape here. Cf a victim who filed a lawsuit against the officers he He said the fridge was full of alcohol. And that's when he started to come onto us and I was extremely nervous. Didn't know what to do who to call. So that's when I started drinking and from there. He took us into his bedroom and some messed up. Things happened in the second episode. We spoke with lawyers and local politicians close to the scandal. They detailed their knowledge of what they say is a cover up by police and city leadership. They helped shed light on the claims of abuse and negligence at the center of this story. Here's attorney David Gates that think that obviously The way the program was run looking back. Now I think th that level negligences. That's the standard of here but to say that they actually they they were part of that cover up. And they're part of that I think that that moves on to people in positions of authority. I think it moves all the way up named flared individually for that reason because he ran the the program. The allegations of abuse made by the victims are striking not only because of the severity of them but also because of the pattern they establish. It appears the officers would groomed groomed scouts beginning with inappropriate text messages and eventually escalating their actions to increasingly more sexual and perverse levels. They seem to have exploited. The innocence inhibition of the teenagers. Unfortunately sexual abuse in the Youth Explores Program isn't unique to Louisville. There have been hundreds of documented cases of officers exploiting their positions as mentors to prey on teen cadets. In some cases officers were prosecuted and convicted and others. They resigned or fired from the force today. We'll hear from a local investigative journalist and unacademic both of whom have written extensively on the abuse within the youth explorers programs across the nation. The first Andrew Wolfson he's a longtime investigative reporter with the Courier Journal and Louisville he compiled a database of sex abuse lawsuits against officers involved in police youth explorer programs across the nation from newspaper articles in court filings. We got a tip that A A an officer had been suspended because some allegations involving in his role as a adviser to the explorer program and We weren't able to write I too much about it. And then finally there was a Sealed lawsuit filed under a pseudonym search for the plaintiff. I think that was NC. I remember correctly and We got a a copy of the lawsuit and then went from there. NC was the first victim to file a civil lawsuit. Food Against Former Louisville officers can his bets and Brandon would the lawsuits made explosive allegations and claimed to officers raped him and also recorded boarded the acts on camera. Neither of the former officers were made available for interviews or comment. NC's Lawsuit Tore Louisville Thunder. It was the first of an eventual seven seven lawsuits filed against members of the Louisville Metro Police Department and city leadership. And that I that I reporting that you did on on NC's lawsuit over the ripple effects. I think people were disturbed that That this involved police and had apparently had gone on for a long time and One turned out that an officer who had been allowed allowed to resign from the department was one of the accused and so I think there was a suspicion of whether it was properly handled When it first came to light Wolfson spearheaded a nationwide investigation into sex abuse in the Youth Explorer Program Program? He found one hundred and sixty two victims in at least twenty eight states over the past forty years. Well I am reading about the explorers of it wasn't hard to come. Upon the fact that there were cases stretching back decades we've found that the the executives in charge of scouting in explorer program specifically did not respond respond in an effective way as these cases emerged Part of the problem was that authority was diffused fused between the the scouting organization and The police departments that actually ran these programs. Some of the details wolfson uncovered were harrowing the youngest victims he came across. We're just thirteen years old. In Oregon he found a case where five officers made a sex tape with two boys and two girls. Another instance in Rhode Island six officers had sex with just one girl in Los Angeles. A former explorer turn officer was sentenced to eleven years in prison for sodomizing teenage boys. In some cases the officers prosecuted and served jail time and others they we're allowed to resign or even remained on the force and we were there any patterns. That you that you came across. I think The one thread was a The victims like all explorer scouts were Kind of enthralled with police and wanted to at least consider instead of pursuing those career so they were kicked. Roy Vulnerable to a authority of officers. This cuts to the heart of the issue. The victims victims were abused by officers in positions of power who exploited the kids desire to enter their profession. This exploitation of ambition destroyed many young lives well I think it's it begins. With Manipulation Police Officers Authority figures and some authors really know how to use that in waste aches specially with a teenager that Samuel Walker professor emeritus at the School of Criminology and criminal justice at the University of Nebraska Omaha. Home home the big cop you know. I'm out there dealing with dangerous situations and so on. Well appeals really. Gets the attention of of of you know some younger people in one thing can lead to another in two thousand and three Walker published a study police sex abuse of teen girls. He found over thirty cases where officers were punished for. Sex Abuse in the youth. Explorer Program got calls from people after the initial report was done people who've been and then victims are their parents and so on and And and we got a sense that there are a lot of. I'm pretty. I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of cases where The parents don't go public and there are undoubtedly a lot of cases where the girls themselves never tell their parents or anybody else. So the the the exact amount of of how often this occurs is simply unknown. I I compare it to an iceberg. The keys we counter the tip of the iceberg but as we know about icebergs you know the most of it is below the water level. This seems to hold with the incidents in Louisville where attorney said there were many more victims than those who filed lawsuits. The ones who haven't come forward or maybe even more embarrassed than Children who are abused by police Because they you know. They looked up to Police and least we're entertaining the idea of becoming one so I don't think it's going to grow to those proportions but we haven't really I mean there's obviously I think what what I wrote that story. I think there's still only two or three cases here service more come to the fore here. Walkers concerned with some of the practices and policies of departments who run explorer programs namely how they conduct ride alongs and social interactions in a number of the cases officers were found to invite cadets into their homes and give them alcohol such is the case with cf who detailed his raped by officer. Kenneth Bets in our first episode in California Walker found a two thousand and two case where an officer pled guilty to multiple sexual misconduct charges for abusing three sixteen year old often during late night. Ride alongs my concern is that not enough is being done to To make sure nothing Nothing bad happens and and again I you get to the point of of just basic police supervision. You have to be careful which officer you choose to run the program which officers are actually going to be out there alone with nature's male or female and again it's officers there's get reputations And so you do your opportunity to do some careful screening You can you you can. Do you know closer supervision in terms of policies of you know Not spending like social time together. I mean if if the explorer program has a ride along on patrol You know there you just don't have the the opportunities if they're gonNA stop and go park somewhere and just you know extensively to talk talk. I mean that's an invitation to disaster so there there are. There are ways to control this in his report Walker noted that learning for life maintains procedures news and policies meant to protect against sexual misconduct in explore programs. Still local journalists Wolfson have had trouble holding them to account it. It seems like this is a problem that runs pretty deep in that program. I was never able to get the The leaders of the program Nationally Ashley to say how many kids have been involved over the years. I mean obviously only a very small percentage of officers this or explorers were implicated. I do think it shows that Any any program for you Will attract some adults who Are Looking to abuse them or trying to satisfy father proletarian my own attempts to speak with officials in the national program. We're similarly fruitless more than a dozen attempts to contact learning for life and the boy scouts lots of America which learning for life operates under with detailed questions were not returned to date. There have been seven. Civil Lawsuits Filed Against Officers Involved Louisville Metro Police Departments Youth Explore Program in the city of Louisville. Well they could be on the hook for substantial settlements to the victims the average sediment I think your in your reporting was over four hundred thousand I believe so. How do you see some of this turning out here and I know it's hard to say I don't imagine we'll go to trial I think there may be some questions about Statutes of limitation whether cases for filed timely. Fashion Some of the And the age of the Scouts of Time Generally Kentucky the age of consent is eighteen. But there's an exception for when the alleged abuser abuser. As A in a position of trust like a teacher or minister and I guess it'll be litigated whether that also applies to explorer leaders nationally Wolfson found the average settlement was over four hundred and fifty thousand dollars. There were seventy five criminal. Charges filed resulting in forty nine convictions of the one hundred sixty two victims. One one hundred thirty seven were female and twenty. Five were male in Louisville both male and female cadets were abused independently Walker was able to validate the scale all of Wolfson's findings as a result of his research. He contributed to report by the International Association of Chiefs of Police that addresses sexual misconduct in police departments. It's I think there needs to be more about this among the within the law enforcement profession at professional meetings And and more discussion of particular departments where you know like good to hear hear hear chiefs and captains there's you know Talk about how they got wind of something and they acted looked into it and then they took decisive action pretty quickly. It's really the the culture of of particular departments Walker said accountability lies with leadership at each department. If chiefs don't set the tone then it's easy for this kind of abuse is to flourish under their watch. Such is the case in Louisville or whistle blowers like Jimmy Harper who alerted local politicians to the scandal are punished for bypassing. The chain of Command Harper recently won a settlement in his whistle blower lawsuit protected the ones who blow the whistle. Yeah Oh absolutely we don't have enough whistleblowing because they don't get protection. I want to speak to the ones that extended over time that speaks to the culture of a particular department where they have come to accept tolerate misconduct. Look the other way. And it's it's sort of gets built in You know you I find that playing out in I mean that's that's what allows corruption to flourish in in some departments Walker said. The chiefs are advised advised to institute a zero tolerance policy for sexual misconduct one with consequences including the firing or prosecution of officers involved ignite. There's no easy fix. Changing culture within a police department isn't an overnight task but it's something that must happen. Police must be accountable accountable to the public they serve it remains to be seen. Whether or not the investigations in Louisville result in a change in police leadership what is known though are some of the impacts of sexual assault has on Victims Caccia s does is a twenty two year old woman who survived being raped by a family member. Her experience it pushed her to become a victims rights advocate and Louisville councilman. David Yates represented her years ago in a civil lawsuit that put him on the map as a fighter for victims of sex crimes. Kacha has been a vocal totem of support and advocacy for the Youth Explore Victims in Louisville. One in four girls and one in six boys this will be substantive piece at a time or eighteen and I think those numbers are just outrageous. And it's something that people brushed under the rug or they don't believe victims or they'd be little then and I feel like David has always had that voice to stand up and be like and while this is happening. This is happening communities in baffled by. He won't stop doing that. Caccia was raised in Louisville but adopted from Russia. Uh when she was an infant her abuse happened in Kentucky and much of her experience mirrors that of the youth explorer cadets. Sorry Mix matere advocate. Because like it's just something that comes close and you have detectives lawyers advocates around Utah. Help you and they do very well taught that you just feel so alone isolated. You know as someone who who's going through all of the all of the difficulties for someone who was abused. How important is that to put that out there to know that there are people in the world who who validate crucial? I feel like when somebody feels like they are being be he little by the situation or people are blaming them for the views. That's when I mean that's when when it goes downhill in many different ways. I mean there are already dealing with the trauma itself on top of disclosing in being vulnerable position. Listen I always want to say like I hear you believe you because I want them to know that I have their back. Caccia works with a local organization called the family children's place in two thousand sixteen the year. Yates filed the first lawsuit on behalf of alleged victim and see she won a national award for advocacy work. The thing is people say like Oh sex fingers and there's this whole like people try to say that they look like a certain person or they have the big white truck in the give out candy and it's not like that it can be in your family. It could be in your school. It could be a a youth through it can be anywhere to be in your local police department and unfortunately that Caccia brings up a valid point. You heard what happened in the case with CF. He came from a long line of firemen and Law Enforcement Smith. Duty and honor was in his blood line. That was. I got me involved in the public services I I'd always had interest and helping people so that was one of the first things I could do. Being a public servant was was a world. CF thought he knew and more importantly he thought he could trust so. I know that you haven't been able to talk with any of the kids from the Youth Explores Program Anwar any of the ones named in the lawsuits. But if you could tell them anything What would you say? What would you let them know you all are so great you guys the warriors I hear you? I validate you. I'm rooting for you. Just don't give up that fight because it is so hard is so detrimental but you have an army people that love you and support you and and I wish I could give you all know I can't but you guys are warriors. Keep fighting the fight. It's GonNa be hard. It's going going to be very depressed if you're GONNA YOU'RE GONNA go through this trauma triggers. It's GonNa Happen but is have to stay strong victims names of sexual violence experienced trauma that manifests in a variety of ways. A study reported in the clinical psychology review found that adults who experienced sexual assault where seventy percent more likely to contemplate suicide. They had higher rates of anxiety depression and drug use. We've mentioned lawyers for the victims. uh-huh in Louisville who said their clients have exhibited similar behaviors. Here's councilman David. James with the tragic story minor standing as the FBI Interviewed that individual vigil Earlier in the day believe it was around ten. AM in the morning. I ended the interview lasted two to three hours And then that individual left The interview came home and about two hours later. committed suicide attorney deviates corroborated the suicide. CF and Darryl are two alleged victims officers in the middle of this scandal both shared their stories in exclusive interviews with Fox News in our first episode. CF is still pursuing his civil lawsuit against Officer Bets and the Louisville Metro Police Department. He's currently recovering from injuries. Sustained while in a motor vehicle accident while serving in the army. I hope that this will shed a light on the police department. Show what happened and I hope that nationally if this is happening elsewhere the explores floors are cadets will come forward and not be scared to do so. Darryl retired from the police force in two thousand fourteen due to progressively worsening health conditions. He's now working part time in the Louisville area and actively seeking professional counseling as an outlet for the trauma from the abuse. He suffered by officer bets. He thinks that there's been ongoing sexual abuse in the program for years before what's been reported. The Police Department is overwhelmingly. Great people you know bought by the most level but you know you see stories like this. We're occasionally there's a bad apple that comes in in this case. I think I think it it happened before. Bet some would We'll we'll put bet worry Darryl said he's waiting for justice for the other victims and hoping for a change in police and city leadership in our fourth episode so we'll dive into a number of allegations made in five recently unsealed explorer lawsuits. We'll also update you on the criminal cases against baton would as well. What was the political ramifications? This saga has had on the current mayoral race in the Derby City Andrew. Thank you again. Thanks for listening. We hope you'll stick around around for the fourth installment in our series which dives into allegations made public in the remaining five civil lawsuits. You've been listening to Fox News investigates. I'm Laura ingle.

officer Louisville Louisville Metro Police Depart Police Department Andrew Wolfson Samuel Walker CF Fox News Laura ingle attorney Manipulation Police Officers A Louisville Metro Police Depart International Association of C chiefs Kentucky David Yates Caccia Darryl Andrew Kuyper
Pioneers: Frances Glessner Lee

Encyclopedia Womannica

05:25 min | 2 years ago

Pioneers: Frances Glessner Lee

"And. Hello. And welcome back from wonder media network. I'm Jenny Kaplan. And this is encyclopedia were Manica. Today. Let's talk about the woman you can thank for the advent of modern friends science, and the vast cornucopia of CSI style TV ships known as the mother of forensic science meet our pioneer of the day Francis. Glasner lee. Brandis was born in Chicago in eighteen seventy eight to a wealthy high-society family. She and her brother were schooled at home by private tutors. But only her brother was allowed to go to college. Instead Francis did what was expected of her and married. A Chicago lawyer, but the marriage quickly ended in divorce though she found her passion relatively early it wasn't until later in life that Francis pursued her real interest. George bursts McGrath, a friend of her brothers from Harvard. I introduced Francis to the concept of forensic science. He was studying to become a doctor at Harvard Medical School at the time and developed particular interest in death investigations, when George visited the Glasner family in Chicago. He and Francis would discuss his studies, and it soon became apparent that Francis shared, his fascination, but over the years when Francis expressed interest in becoming more involved in the study of forensic pathology she was completely discouraged by the men and her family. It wasn't until a full year after her brother's death in nineteen thirty that Francis finally started following her dreams embarking on a journey to discover, how detectives might better uncover clues at that point, she was fifty two years old. But the family fortune. She inherited Francis decided to endow the Harvard department of legal medicine, and the George bursts McGrath library. Also at Harvard. It was the first department of Rennick medicine in the country. Francis, also endowed, the Harvard association in police science, an organization that still active today. The Francis questioner. Lee homicide division is named in her honor the Harvard association and police science was a driving force in changing over from the antiquated coroner system to professionalize system based on forensic pathology in the US during the nineteen forties and nineteen fifties Francis hosted semi annual homicide investigation seminars that were major events for the crime solving community during each week long conference. Detectives prosecutors and other criminal. Investigators came together from across the country to learn about and discuss the newest developments in. The week ended with the lavish banquets thrown by Francis at the Ritz Carlton. These seminars became famous for something called the nutshell studies of unexplained death that were presented by Francis each year. The nutshell studies were built by hand by Francis herself. They were intricately and meticulously constructed dioramas of actual crime scenes, complete with working doors, windows and lights each of the twenty Dollhouse size models was based on an especially tricky case, and each was designed to test the abilities of investigators to collect all relevant evidence. The model showed multiple causes of death and were based on cases where Francis herself had been able to attend the autopsy and crime scene as a result, the attention to detail in the models is astonishing. The models had working mouse traps and rocking chairs and real life and seen accurate food in the kitchens. Plus, the corpses accurately represented the discoloration or bloating that was present at the crime scene each. Element was created by Francis herself. And a single model cost three thousand forty five hundred dollars to create investigators were given ninety minutes to study each scene. Eighteen of the original dioramas are still used for training homicide investigators today. So the solutions Marquette is tightly held secrets their house at the Maryland office of the chief medical examiner. But you may also be able to find them elsewhere. They're often loaned out on display as they're now considered works of art for her contributions to the advancement of friends excites. Francis was made an honorary captain in the New Hampshire. State police nineteen forty-three making her the first woman to join the international association of chiefs of police and finally in, perhaps the greatest active Omayad incredible. Pioneer Francis was reportedly the inspiration for Jessica Fletcher in murder. She wrote the night on the issue. Late all time in live. It kills them. What makes you think it was? What makes you think it was always is your insurance company? How tune in tomorrow for the story of another incredible pioneer. We'll be talking about a woman who won the Nobel peace prize special. Thanks. The one and only Liz Caplan, my sister and the incredible researcher behind this amazing collection of women. Talk you tomorrow.

Francis George bursts McGrath Harvard Harvard association Chicago Glasner lee Jenny Kaplan Harvard department of legal me international association of c Harvard Medical School Brandis Manica bloating Liz Caplan US Rennick Ritz Carlton researcher
DNB: Biden Declares War On Ghost Guns, Law Modeling, WH Brings In The OKC Retreads & Unvaccinated Troops Called A Threat To National Security

The Propaganda Report

40:12 min | 3 months ago

DNB: Biden Declares War On Ghost Guns, Law Modeling, WH Brings In The OKC Retreads & Unvaccinated Troops Called A Threat To National Security

"The drive time news blast thirty minutes forty five per patrons news of the day from a perspective of truth liberty and justice. This is monica parang. Brad biggie our top story. Joe biden coming down with executive orders and other directives to respond to watch. Cnn so completely tellingly propaganda. Aesthetically says they literally start the article by saying facing pressure to act after a recent spate of high profile. Mass shootings president. Joe biden unveiled a package of moves. Thursday that seeks to address the scourge of gun violence he deems that a blemish on the nation. So the for the whole thing straight out of the gate on. Cnn is all propaganda but the there are many details to this. That really triggered me. I did not do not think they released the actual executive orders yet. I will say that the two big focuses and it seems to me what they do is just chip away chip away chip away at the second amendment and what they're focusing on here. Is this idea of the ghost. Gun the ghost gun. Which is an expression i had never heard before. I assume that it's meant to take aim at three d. printed guns. That is something. That merrick garland the attorney. General is going to address specifically the three d. printed guns but the ghost guns are self. Assembled firearms often put together with parts sold online four. They do have serial numbers parts. Do not require a background check. Some ghost guns can be fabricated in as little as thirty minutes. I mean thank god if you're like a victim of domestic violence and i've been stuck behind a waiting law but i guess you can't really get stuff online that fast so they also are looking at the department of justice is meant to consider publishing model red flag laws and those are tantamount to a federal law because they have these associations of governors and legislators fat coordinate legislation across the country so that to me is a flag that there's a federal approach to this. Obviously the reminds me of what the guy was saying in the rocks and video about the un. We created all the walls. If the so you guys can just follow these laws absolutely. That's what model laws are forest. So i never like those. That's why i paid so much attention. When obama had the task force for twenty first century policing mrs they are getting ready to write. Model laws and model laws are often adopted. And i'll tell you the kind of person they're adopted by so i'll tell you in a second. This is very important who who biden tapped as head of the atf. Back on firearms. There hasn't been an official had in years. This guy is going to be the new head so he let me just finish with. Biden was saying the things that really triggered me about what he was saying. He said this is a public health crisis. Go it's really important that he's using those Those expressions because that's the way the executive branch gets away with violating the balance of power's. The checks bounces. Legislators are supposed to legislate if they call it. A regulation like new york. They couldn't get smoking banned from bars so bloomberg and giuliani booth kind of used health regulations to get it to circumvent the will of the people. That's very important. And of course the covert thing has got everybody on board who completely putting themselves under house arrest for year at the cry. that is contradicted. The facts are contradicted by the policy when it comes to actually the health impact still people will just a- defer one hundred percents of that. He says he said a couple of things that really made me not so two more things. he said. No amendments of the constitution is obsolete from the very beginning. You couldn't own any weapon you wanted to own. From the very beginning. The second amendment existed certain people weren't allowed to have weapons so the idea is just bizarre to suggest that some of the things we're recommending are contrary to the constitution so fat check that a little bit because they thought is he suggesting that there were federal laws against certain weapons and the way he said it so he had said before that you weren't allowed to own a cannon during revolutionary war time something like that which of course cannot be true. How the hell else did we win. You know unless the ban was from the british and it was fact checked bad. That was absolutely not true. And that even if there were bands on cannons it would have to have had been at the state level and many of the states didn't even have constitutions at that point it is possible that certain people weren't allowed to have weapons. I couldn't find any example of that. But i guess it is possible that like benedict arnold whatever but i would assume that it was well. I'm not gonna make any assumptions. But i i don't i cannot see what he's talking about and just to double check about what the second amendment actually says it says a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Now i personally think that this this actually makes a puts an onus. A if there's anything in the bill of rights that i can think of off the top of my head that actually creates a positive obligation. It would be this reference to the militia that we absolutely should have militias in the state because they are necessary to free states but people get caught up in that. Because they think what i'm saying is you should only have a gun. If you're in a militia the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Help biden is talking about. I mean. obviously it's just propaganda. But the thing. The absolute kicker with what biden was saying is the best he said. This is freaking hilarious. This is i think in the cnn. Article put it give it to you for the show notes. The only industry in america a billion dollar industry that can't be sued. He said imagine how different it would be. If the same exemption had been available to tobacco companies let me ask you basically. Can you think of a product or industry that is exempt from liability besides tobacco and firearms vaccine in pretty much. This is i. Could this article be ten years old. Because no one in their right mind could possibly suggests that. It's the early industry that is free for liability and it's not free from liability the the this is not free from liability. They you can. If you're if gun was shoddily manufactured fraudulently advertised and backfire. To the point where it kills you because they made false representations. You can bet your but that that you can sue the firearm company but vaccine does that. You may not sue them. Vaccine does the equivalent of that. You may not sue them. They are free from genuine tort from negligence. All that stuff. You're not allowed to sue them for that. So that i call complete and utter bs on that. But i just put the hypocrisy right out there in front of you. Like people don't see outside their logic proof compartments. We hear about the vaccine stuff. All the time about how they're not they. You can't sue them because of this. And then we're talking about this and it's like it's like it's on another planet. I made the mistake of looking at cnn. Which i never do. And my guess is the people who are targeted by cnn. Actually never do hear anything outside of that narratives goo point but the but i will say like to the extent that he's talking about the constitution the department of justice and the fbi are completely outside the constitution and they are meant to be. There are no the reason they were established was to force onto states unconstitutional laws. That states could otherwise nullify and were actually nullifying especially in the south. So i completely object to the concept that the concept that the supreme court has the right to adjudicate on the constitutionality of congressional law. I feel like the remedy is state nullification and that we know that's the remedy because there's no enforcement mechanism for federal law in the constitution. There is no enforcement mechanism in the fbi or created afterwards. But i have to tell you about this. Atf guy. seem as david chipman. And all i saw all i saw was it said. This guy is a twenty five year veteran of the atf. And i'm thinking to myself immediately. First thing i thought of was twenty five years ago. Oklahoma city was twenty five years ago. And the atf was definitely on the inside of that because there was an atf. There was not up office in that federal building and they did not turn go to work that day. They like at a field trip or something. So i'm thinking twenty five ago he was probably one of those komi types one of those like infants that they were just little teeny. Whatever like young newbie where they were like. This guy may be genuine sociopath. Either way he's reacting to this boy. He's a keeper. I think mike lee if this his first foray into oklahoma city then maybe they knew right away he was there kind of guy. Yeah so i went back so but all it said was twenty five year veteran of vhf and i was like i look. There's no kapiti entry on the guy. I wonder if he had to do with that. Holy cannoli. i'm glad that i well. I hate being logged into linked him. I don't even know how. I have an account but i am. I guess locked into it and they can track you like they will tell the person who looked at the. I know you setting where it doesn't do. Well i don't know. I stumbled upon it and opened it up and there was all the information in its full. Glory which i m pretty confident since i tweeted it out. It will be taken down a sap but this is what it said. I mean you are not going to believe this. This guy he was Let me let me actually read you. The unbelievable blur it says there. I haven't pretty quick so let me. Just pull it up so it starts with. The guy shows his his resume and it goes back like thirty years. He doesn't really look that old. First of all he of course got he went to american university. Which is where i think. Jfk got fingered because like marks for death because of his last speeches at american university. This guy got a masters at like what. What university was you think would be like a sure sign. The guy is a deep stater. Harvard yale. johns hopkins see. I know. there's a lot but johnson do that. Actually because this guy's mentioned in the story that have they also okay so he. Most recently is a senior policy advisor at the gifford's courage to fight gun violence institute where he focuses on ghost guns so they're just taking away before that though he was an. Svp at shot. Spotter shot spotter. Which i am telling you ten years ago or eleven. Nine years ago. I started talking about shot. Spotter and i had all the frequent neo-con saying you know really just for safety shot. Spotter is where instead of just having cameras. Everywhere they also have microphones everywhere and is in case. This is it. The whole world is blanketed with microphones. In case a gunshot goes off somewhere so that without someone calling it in they can just zip over there but of course picks up voices as well atlanta has this right i remember you talking about it. I think so. I don't i mean it's it's done like it's definitely unrolling but it was shocking when it first came out anyway so he was longtime. Atf guy. He was the an a fellow at these kind of things. Make me absolutely insane. And goes to the model lost the international association of chiefs of police. First of all. He wasn't a police chief and second of all. Why the shit is anybody oop sorry. Is anybody in in this country and an international association of chiefs of police. Why do we want to adopt international standards for something as local as the chief of police like sheriff. Israel's into that stuff to it really pissed me off sorry okay. Then he was. Atf for twenty three years. Okay where are these. Things have to go back to his early thing okay. He was a special agent in the houston in the houston field division. He was a case agent in the branch davidian trial. He responded to the oklahoma city bombing as a member of the western national response team. Boy i i actually how i found this was that i just googled his name and oklahoma city and i knew something would come up and then i go to at it and find in this page and then you find it was way at the bottom special agent washington fields vision where he was in. And this is another thing i was like. I wonder if he was on that. The world trade center bombing response team from the northeast national response team so he happened to be in the northeast national response team in nineteen ninety three when the world trade center ninety three bombing which was an inside job. We have evidence of that. Actually kill people and then he quickly moved to the houston one where he would be johnny on the spot for the oklahoma city and all that. I'm sure there's more but he also was some honcho and overseeing asset forfeitures which it blatantly states in his resume was oversight of assets forfeited as a result of a criminal investigation. I don't know if you're familiar with the asset forfeiture scandal. They take away your assets because they are investigating a crime. You're accused stuff. You don't have to be convicted and you never get the stuff back. So it's a. I rose from you. Yes and here's the problem and there are federal incentives to locals for doing that so you can do it just to get the money. 'cause you get a vague or whatever percentage but you could also target something you cut it. I mean and they've done that so we're like somebody they'll say a pot on your land. We're gonna investigate this because of the city wants to get your land. You won't sell it to them where you're asking too much you know that kind of thing is a very horrible program horrible fence. It shocks the conscience that program. So this guy. David shipman not wouldn't be my top choice. I was thinking they were talking about him in the article. One of the articles. I brought to. I just looked at it. They aren't talking about him. They're talking about. Merrick garland who also helped investigate oklahoma city. Of course bring these domestic terrorism. The retreads back who worked on issues similar issues in the past and they bring their experience to the future. This goes to a question that sam ship liaison the last union of the unwanted which is how do they get away with this. How many people are in on it. How do they keep it a secret. This stuff demonstrates that they have anybody who's in on it who's like they don't have to throw out of a helicopter gets through that first trial. They've retread these people over and over and over again and that's this is proof positive that that guy was in every one of those things merrick garland has a couple to they just know the guys they can count time. They reach right. That's why why would bill barr the ag. Couldn't you get somebody who would give you a little more pale than bill barr. He's a he was a has been but he was the guy who knew where the bodies were buried. He knew how to get that kind of stuff done he was just. The deep state is deep. Stater it's like they had these specialist for all the different issues. Kinda like stacey. Abrams is a specialist in the voter suppression issue and twenty thirty years from now stacey abrams. We hadn't heard from her awhile. And there's another voter suppression issue. That takes charge will see her brought back and inserted into it. I feel like they are a lifelong a handful of issues. And there the guy you call. Maybe they see domestic violence. They pops up on the news guy stars prepared to stuff honey. I'm to be called it again here. In a minute like garland thing it was domestic terrorism because okay see was supposedly the militia guys so these guys do have a theme absolutely. That's a solid ski talks about that. He says you find your issue the thing that you are specialize in and you champion that and you become the person who everyone looks to every time that issue comes up man. that's crazy. I mean this is just anybody who thinks there are two sides of two teams. That they're not all on the same page of the same agenda is out of their minds they all got the jerseys for both sides closet on the domestic terrorism thing. Definitely it like they've passing the baton from middle east stuff to domestic terrorists have not that they won't keep it going with the middle east. The colorado shooter bombing. Sarah all that stuff is gonna you know. Maybe they alternate is similar tone. The biden administration is stepping up its federal efforts to combat domestic terrorism. They announced early on his administration. They were gonna make that a priority over the past week. They have amped up that priority and they are weighing strategies that are historically used a foreign terrorist groups. Which we know this a way to subvert people's rights and subvert the constitution by classifying them the same way they classify foreign terrorism. And they're doing it all on the basis of what happened on january six that's continues to be the basis of a lot of future actions similar to how biden ran for president based on what he says he saw in charlottesville and twenty seventeen the attack which that was also kind of a fabrication. The story that they based all of that on this fabricated stories become the foundation of policies. For years to come people hear him so often. They don't even question the fundamental assumptions which oftentimes were completely made up. Maybe kernels of truth but the takeaways were definitely made up. So here's what they're doing the homeland security department the therefore they're making it a national priority and they're going to be requiring seven point five percent of the billions and grant funds to be spent in combating domestic terrorism. So part of their seven point five percent of their budget now is going to be going to focus on domestic terrorism and binds campaign. Said that they're going to try to establish laws that respect free speech and civil liberties while making the same commitment to root out domestic terrorism as we have done to stop international terrorism perfect. Yeah so they wanna. Libertarians always said don't guantanamo. Don't do these things. You can't categorize these guys as outside the laws enemy combatants. They are like pirates privateers. You can use letters of marque and reprisal what you have to stay within the confines of the constitution. Otherwise you're you're going to have a slippery slope where we do not recognize these fundamental rights anymore and bill barr now. Biden are calling for that very line of thinking absolutely. Here's a quick list of some of the measures. They're going to be taking. They are going to be discussing with congress. A possibility of updating the criteria for the terrorist watchlist to include more homegrown extremists. They are going to be considering domestic terrorism czar at the office of the director of national intelligence. I'm so tired of this. this labels. Czar it sounds like it's a serrato kratsa's czar was like the last of the autocrats person with total power. This is an interesting one here. They're going to be analyzing traveled data. Federal travel data to trace the patterns of possible militia members and extremist especially groups with increasing connections to europe. I actually my gosh. Wow so it's international its domestic but it's international right other domestic domestic just means whites i guess and not even white wave like what are what is not like there's a bunch of people of pure swedish descent running around something. You know that they are doing this but They they're going to be working with private media companies like facebook and twitter to spot the indicators of violence to prevent the backlash before it happens of course but yeah pre crime. But how can they include militia. Militia is a constitution. I would say the only constitutional. I would argue. It's a constitutional requirement that it's like the only thing in the constitution that is required of the states or the people is to have militias right. Yeah i mean they wanna label those militias. The problem yet there were state. Laws probably like swiss switzerland where you will were required. You know not like a draft but like everybody needed to be armed i. I'm pretty sure there were lost like that back in the day. Listen to this aspect of it. It's related to mental health. The department review is focused. Not only on clear acts of terrorism but also on those who are pushed to commit acts because of a combination of mental health issues grievances and ideologies that provide a perceived justification for violence. So this is this. Say that again. The department of review. They're going to be focusing on for the domestic terrorism. There amped up effort is going to be focusing not only on clear acts of terrorism but also on those who are pushed to commit acts because of the combination of mental health issues grievances and ideologies at provide perceive justification for the violence. Think about that. This is all about pre crime really. Yeah it's all of how profiling people as pre criminal so that you can stop them before they start and let me just tell you hand in hand with this. Are these red flag laws. That garland's can push down that deprive us of our liberties without due process of law. They're going to say it's due process of the law because they're going to write a law that they're going to abide by but the the law that we're talking about here is the constitution right. He had a trial by your peers before they're allowed to deprive you of life liberty and that saving up to to void that in hand in hand with the red flag laws no doubt and they do try and give you a way out which they were putting seventy seven million to train police officers to help them to share intelligence across states. So they're gonna be trained to give all their data to other states in federal government. I know who used to lead the charge. With that was obama and eric holder and i did many shows on that people were back in the day people walking out of like the department of justice and stuff because it was such an egregious violation. I think the one thousand nine hundred and four privacy act but just the general principle that you do not want this kind of surveillance. It's bad as against the. What is it the the fourth and fifth. But i think the fourth amendment where you can't you're not allowed to just surveilled people and monitor them. They need to be looking for something specific for a reason that they're committing a crime and you have probable cause and get a warrant issued totally and one final element of this. I have to throw this part in their is. They're going to be doubling the number of grants that they're going to give to organizations that are developing projects to research prevention strategies including off boarding those who are vulnerable to rattle a to radicalization off boarding them. So this is the stand de radicalization programs. This is the re education programs that we're talking about. This article also talks about how far behind the united states is behind germany and having a system of de radicalization set what is off boarding de wrath. Leising off boarding is say you ask somebody who was in word instead of being on yard. Try to capture them as they start to question their cunanan beliefs. Maybe you try to capture them an off board them into accepted narrative before act somebody else radic created apostates to make people who come in. Like i've seen some of those. I escape from q. No like it's a call to mind control cult which it isn't because it doesn't. It doesn't do those things i called. Do tear you down and then build up. Why better yeah build you back better. So in our last story of the free thirty. We're gonna talk about the white house's concern over the one third of those in the military who are not getting vaccinated and what they hope to do about it but before we get to that. I want to tell you about what we're gonna talk about in the patriot. Fifteen which is about how vaccine marketing has hit a new high or low depending on where you stand and of course a big. Thank you to our sponsor of today's show. I am super excited to introduce to our newest sponsors. They are truly a product of the positive community that we are growing up through the propaganda report stuff. The livestreaming stuff the way that we interact through patriot. I know people have problems with patriot is an until we get thrown off. It has been a great platform for us but we also do disappearing patron party. Is we do zoom parties. We actually have a a a listener hosted discord server. Who actually by coincidence. It gave us a shout for today. So i'll get to that but this is how the our sponsors for today connected cat and jackie. You might know them and a very propaganda report because these girls are what i have. Coined pink pilled pink tells which is a combination of the red pill. Guy your eyes wide open. But you're also take the white pill which means there is hope and they have actually manifested this philosophy in a line of gear at a. You have to go to your row. Which is you are loved dot store. You are loved dot store their inaugural product line displays. These really like mugs and thermoses and drink containers and t shirts. That really. Just tell you or someone you love that you are loved. They tell you these. These cat and jack tells to wear your heart on your sleeve with a t shirt or drink the love from a love mug and for me as soon as i saw it. If you go there to your love dot store and you see the products. The at just screamed outs me. Mother's day and then. I thought crap when his mother's day mothers as insanely early this year it is may night. That's the earliest i ever remember. It being may nine. So i am going to send some of these things and insulated mug. Maybe a little insulated wine carafe thing to my mother. My mother-in-law sisters and france. Who are moms who i love and i want them to know especially this year that they are loved. Even if it's not your mother the mother of your children. I think it's a great idea. So right after this have to show. I am going to go to you. Our loved dot store and get my mother's day gifts out of the way. Because then i won't have to worry about it. They'll definitely get there in time and they're very sweet and thoughtful. They're really cute. And i'm looking at really are catch jack. He's got a mind for business and they're they're putting out but it's a very sweet. I'm very proud and happy at this really was born of our community and in the true atmosphere of gratitude and respect in our little propaganda report community. The you are loved girls with like to give a special shout fellow. Proper brucie for his inspiration and encouragement. So i encourage you to take the pink pill and go to. You are loved dot store because you are loved. That's awesome great products over there so sweet. It's really nice. And i honestly think if i got that like as a mom i would feel loved as a matter of fact. I wasn't tell us. But i want to tell you this. I love that so much that a year ago for christmas for my daughter she takes latin. I actually surveyed her various latin teachers and ask them how to write. You are loved in latin so that she would know it was just for her. I had it engraved silver bracelet. I wear that. I engrave with my own little saying i had made for her. That said in latin. You are loved. Because i wanted her to know every day at school. If things get tough you are loved. So i'm a huge fan of this. And they didn't know that captain. Jackie didn't know that but fan of their of their sentiments. And i really think it's a good example of the propaganda. Report pink pill. Yeah i love the positivity of it's great fantastic if you guys have not go and check out the proper port dot com and do favor and register your email address so that we can include you in our low volume mark. It is so low volume fact that we have used it zero times. I'm working on it. Truly low volume. Well that's perfect. We don't want to overwhelm people with already. Rei enough stuff in their inbox is coming in. I don't play newsletter. Sorry yes and monica were up a monthly newsletter and more importantly we're collecting email addresses so that in the event that we get d platform again we will have a way to contact everyone and still get the word out about the show and other events as well and our website has few other cool little features also like the continuous player of all of our free content. So if you're like my brother who's a mechanic who just likes to catch up on all the shows and turn on the continuous player way works in the shop. Then you can do something like that. We also have a interactive forums twitter. But you like the twitter features and you can go to the prop report dot com and go to the press pool. You click on the press. Poll feature and you can join like minded propagate report listeners and share headlines and engage in a variety of discussions with monica and i as well as everybody else in the community is a vibrant community. A lot of people have good ideas and good insights is at the proper port dot com. Click on the press pool to join in the conversation and we also have the meetups tab where you can check into see if there is a meet up planned in your area or if you wanna plan one in your area you can do it there on the meet up to grad monica. We have one. Atlanta april eighteenth at two pm at neighbors feed and seed. And then we're going to do a little little one in the suburbs of new york where i'm gonna be. We're gonna. it's going to be in rockland county. That's going to be friday night. April twenty third so i'll post the exact location on that. Meet up tab at the proper port dot com fantastic guests report dot com. Click on the meet up tab and you can set that up and also check out the merge page and the proper dot com. You can pick up some of that. Propaganda report merge like extra large mug our propaganda reports stickers or a high quality comfortable fitting t shirts is a great way to show your support for the show. Monica if you click on shop tab you can be two links one to our merch store but also one to all of our sponsors website so if you wanna go to love dot store just go to our shop tab at the proper port dot com and you can click through to their page fantastic and now onto our final story of the thirty. The military is not as open or excited about getting the job as the media. Might have you believe as one third of those. Us troops have opted out of getting the covid nineteen vaccine and apparently according to the white house and the pentagon this is a threat to our national security. They they don't believe according to this article is out of the new york times is they don't necessarily believe there. Vast numbers of white supremacists in the military but they are concerned about what they are. Calling a more insidious infection of extremism in the ranks. And how it's showing how it shows a shockingly high percentage of troops who refused to take the covid nineteen vaccine so that they consider troops not taking the cova nineteen vaccine as an insidious infection action of extremism in their ranks. Think about that for a second. They consider extremist not to just bow down and take a vaccine. They say it's dangerous national security and in an increasingly complex digital world. They need the troops to guard against disinformation. Trust the data and believe in science because it is increasingly vital on the battlefield says as data and believe in the science. Yes they not reading the stuff coming out of astrazeneca above the fold today. britain main vaccine hit by setback. They're telling people into thirty not to take it because those people are under no threat of death from kovin on their otherwise seriously ill but they are under threat for this blood clotting which they were denying the whole time. i mean. that's what happens when something is not. Fda approved emergency authorization is just that yeah. I mean this is really. I can't believe that. I guess they cannot force the soldiers to get it because it has not yet been approved. Exactly listen to this. This is their words again. The troops crisis of confidence in the vaccine is potentially watershed moment in warfare. A watershed moment for the first time. Ever online disinformation is directly threatening the united states military readiness talk and then they go into talk about logical operations yet right so not taking the backseat military readiness. Surely i read a public letter an open letter that the history homos guys sent me saying that. He's william from england of a doctor who said this is crazy. We have entire departments who are not showing up for work because they go and mass at lunch time to get their vaccinations and they're all sick the next day. So if it the chances of all the soldiers getting deathly ill from cova at the same time has to be weighed against the the pretty much common extremely common side effect. I would say most people get really sick after that second. Shy yup. Well here's the kicker of this article is that if we allow the disinformation to cloud the judgment of the service members and erode their trust in science than we weren't we won't be ready for the next fight and russia and china. They know this and they have online campaigns to sow doubt and our vaccine so the pentagon must step up and deliver more aggressive campaign to counter that russia and chinese disinformation in the first step is to just get the troops to take the damn vaccine. America will be stronger once they do. I guess you don't get a promotion if you don't get vexed. Perhaps that's a good point. That could be where this is going. I'll tell you in the patron fifteen. How the symbolism for ivan vaccines freely is flourishing flowering. If you will so. I have a couple of shoutouts want to alex. Thank you very much alex for your support. He's a new patron. Saint the newest patron saint and also our friend justin who i refer to in the sponsorship shoutout. Justin wants to shout out the discord server. Anyone who wants to so. This isn't not to be a patriot patriot. On anyone who wants to can come join. They chat there these rural propaganda report listeners. There even subgroups for homesteaders and that kind of thing they chat about everything from politics and life funny memes sore stories and this isn't can't he's hilarious he is i mean really he should have a comedy act. He says it's just a chill place to hang and he listened to the how this guy supports us. It's really amazing. like this. is our friend from liberty gear dot net. So you should support him because he supports us so much. He bought a u. r. l. So that people could get our discord server. Eat more easily. It's a dp discord dot com. Because he always hosts an after party so we have from party. We're on screen. People are chatting in the chat but then they can all go over to discord neither talk or they can do it video wise anyway. That's dp discord dot com. Dpd s ceo dot com. Anna generous one in a thoughtful one. So big shout to justin. He is truly a patron saint. Fantastic and you guys can find your drive time. News blast every weekday after the proper port dot com or your favorite podcasting platform propaganda report. Podcast feed if you want access to the extra content that we drop everytime we drop. Dnb go to patriotdepot dot com slash properly report and become a patron or you can check us out at rock dot com slash propaganda report. We were do deep dive video. Podcast de constructions. Talk to you guys in the patient. Fifteen or tomorrow. Have a fantastic rest of your day.

Merrick garland cnn atf bill barr oklahoma city biden Joe biden department of justice monica parang Brad biggie international association of c david chipman american university Harvard yale houston field division western national response team Biden fbi
Why Hollywood loves cop stories

Post Reports

34:21 min | 1 year ago

Why Hollywood loves cop stories

"From the newsroom of the Washington Post. Ross Helderman Post. This post reports. I'm Martine powers. Friday June twelfth. Today the past and future of Hollywood's losing affair with law enforcement, and the symbolism of clothes on Capitol Hill this. You've probably got emails from every business. You've ever given your email to letting you know that they think black lives matter, but unlike Alice's teacup in New York which sent me one of those emails. The entertainment industry actually has something immediately within their purview that they can do if they want to change the conversation around policing in America. Being forty four magnum, the most powerful handgun. And would blow your head clean off. On May. You got cops believe and that is take a pause. Look at the cop shows and the police movies that they produce and see if the message they're sending align with their stated values. My name is Alyssa. Rosenberg is about the intersection culture and politics for the Washington. Post opinion, section, and in two thousand sixteen I wrote a five part series on the history of Pucklechurch cops, and there are a lot of them. And, so you're basically calling for like all these shows that are on TV right now like law and order and Brooklyn nine nine and the. Cop shows on every single channel that the executives for the networks and the show runners. They should actually stop filming those shows. It sounds like an audacious proposal, but because of the covid nineteen pandemic, almost no Hollywood production is actually underway in the sense that almost no one is onset or on a sound stage, actually shooting television and movies right now. So this is something that might have been a really costly. Ask in normal times. I mean I would understand if a network were show, runners said. Are you insane? Do you know how much? Much it cost me to stop production on episode. Keep everyone employed Walter. Not Working, so we can have a focus group, but at a moment when the work that is being done on most shows and movies consists of writer's room has having zoom calls. There has never been a lower cost or more opportune time for the people who make this particular species of popular culture to say look. We're saying this stuff publicly. Is What we're putting on screen in accordance with our values, and if not do we want to do anything about it. So just for context like how popular are TV shows and movies about police. They are really popular. He looked BC's lineup. Dick Will Chicago shows which are set in a shared universe, and are about the police fire, ems and hospital workers in Chicago are a night of primetime programming. Twenty percent of the network's programming and that doesn't even count. The law and order franchise. In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate it equally important groups, the police who investigate crime and the district attorneys who? Of the most enduring genres in American popular culture, it's never really waned, and it's going pretty strong today. Did you watch. Any of these TV shows growing up. These cop shows I grew up in a house largely without exposure to culture. I think. We gotTA TV for the First Time In nineteen ninety two when my parents wanted to watch. The Bush Clinton presidential debates, and it wasn't until I graduated from college. That I had my own TV cable for the first time, and I was living in DC just gone through your totally Standard Post College. break-up I had two friends. I was broke and I was lonely, and so I watched. Basically, nothing, but law and order. reruns for you. Come home from work and watch three or four hours of them on TNT because they're always on. Exactly and so. That was in some ways. My formative experiences television is having it at twenty one, not at five or ten or even fifteen I. I think I've mentioned this on the podcast like three times before, but my dad is obsessed with law and order I grew up watching law and order I'd come home from school and be doing homework and Lon Order, which is be on in the background, because it's on for like four hours every night, and it's just how I frankly like stood the criminal justice system and I would say I I love cops stories. You know they're dramatically perfect. the crime issue stakes, the investigation of crime gives you action and solving crime gives you an incredibly morally satisfying conclusion. I mean there's just perfect story engines, but they're not politically neutral one either and the thing is not the first generation to be shaped by top stories like this I. So how far back do you cop stories go? If, you go back to Charlie. Chaplin and Buster Keaton who are the two giants of the American Silent Film Era. They are making top stories. They're making cops stories that look very different from the ones that we watch today Heaton in particular, made a number of short films in which he plays characters who end up on the wrong side law on, and in one case would really unjustly killed by the police because of a misunderstanding. So! These stories have always been here and we're insertive. Our second century cop stories in America I would say. But as long as there have been cop stories there have been. Sort of a push poll between the entertainment industry and police departments themselves. Tell me more about that, so if you go back to nineteen o eight. There is this big moment when George McClellan Junior. WHO's the mayor of New York City? Shuts down cities movie theaters. He has police officers go in and closed them because they're sort of of ice and the police are in number. Cities are concerned about the way that they're portrayed and pop culture, and in nineteen ten, the International Association of Chiefs of Police Adopts a resolution condemning the movie business as a whole, because the police are sometimes made to appear ridiculous. In the stories that pop culture is putting out and see how this early debate and then in Nineteen Fifteen, the Supreme Court rules that movies are not protected by the first. Amendment and I know that something. That's incredibly weird to think about today we all. I think accepted this point that you know movies and TV are protected modes of expression, but for thirty seven years people who were making movies and eventually television, radio. Didn't necessarily have the protection of the First Amendment. I mean I can't imagine what it would be like to work with that knowledge that your speech is not considered protected that the police can come. Shut Down your movie theater, and that be organization of police chiefs says that you're doing something immoral and potentially dangerous. There's no way that doesn't shape the stories that people decide to tell. Yeah, how? How is that reflected in the early years of what we saw like police drama? So there is this figure who I think most of us would not necessarily be familiar today, but he's kind of the original genius of police storytelling and has his Jack Webb and he had this route genius idea to go partner with the LAPD and was smart enough to essentially make them proposal, he said. I will tell your stories. You can literally censor the episodes. But I get to sell my show as the authentic depiction of what's happening in the LAPD and also frankly he got loans of equipments. He got off duty officers who would act as extras and it made. Shooting. Dragnet cheaper and easier for him and the LAPD public information office literally got to sign off on the scripts. So there was something of a symbiotic relationship in which this film company was was able to say. Look like here are real stories of police officers, or this is a true exciting depiction of the adventures of police. And then the police had the censorship privileges that made sure that this came out in a good light for them, and it wasn't UCLA PD. The head of the California Highway Patrol Bernard Caldwell goes to his PR, Guy says. Get to show dragnet I want something like that. It's good for me. It's good for recruitment. And they get it. There's actually a show on highway patrol whenever the laws of any state broken duly authorized organizations swings into action. It may be called. The State Police State troopers, militia, the Rangers or the highway patrol. Stories. This was I mean. Beyond the point at which the First Amendment has been reapplied to police storytelling, but there are advantages to both partners in making this an actual partnership. I mean if you can get your permits Greece, so you can shoot on location if you can get a bunch equipment that will mean that you don't have to go out and like in rent or paint cop cars. So fast forward to the eighties and the war on drugs. And how did we start seeing that? Play out on screen because I'm thinking back to the movies that would remember that are eighties movies about police and there are a lot of them. The joke was awesome for Hollywood cop stories because it lets them compete in an era when action movies are ascendant and fighting the drug war is. Sooner. Perfect Action Movie Story Right I. Mean You have crimes that are more heinous than a burglary or mugging, and that also theoretically have cancerous effect on society? You have a set of criminals. tend to be depicted as foreign s unusually bloodthirsty. Take your hands out of your pocket. Let's go now we all. Took a grenade. They're not citizens in the same way. I'm using that term broadly. It's not just that. They are for the most part not depicted as Americans, but they're just people who live outside the normal realm of morality, which I think is what makes a show like Miami Vice, so compelling rate is that it's it's internationally if people coming in and out from all over, and but also it means that because they are not American, because they've chosen to live outside of society, the use a really dramatic force against them becomes justified in the narrative, so the drug war, both became a real world argument for beefing up the firepower and surveillance equipment that police departments had and onscreen. It becomes an excuse to turn cops from. SORTA doughy middle aged guys like Jack Webb were wandering around the neighborhood and it squad car into checked awesome action heroes. And you can have those huge chase scenes where your cars are speeding down highways, you can have you make explosions up. How do I? Know these are going to go bank? You worried about that. I think that's a reasonable concern. You can have these incredible gun battles, and you can do all of that without people saying what is going on, we want the police police us like that, but the whole point is that they're not policemen you like that. They are police saying drug dealers from. Country or coming here to you know corrupt our kids and kill our kids with overdoses and. It becomes this amped up US versus then morality play, which again is what action stories do very well you know when I was looking at I built a database of police shootings in pop culture, not a complete one, but just patterns like just any scene where a police officer shot someone else or was shot at what usually when they were shooting at someone else, but if you go back to dragnet I mean you know you have in the upset, the big thief you have Joe Friday, sort of. Beating himself up over having to shoot someone and the whole episode is literally setup to convince him that. No, he's done the right thing. You really had to kill that guy. First Time whenever killed a man. What a good thing you! Kind of wonder. Maybe there wasn't some other way. The third episode of Naked City literally has a woman who has been widowed by the police. Tell the officer who shot her husband, you know. You're okay. I can see it. Yes sorry for what you did. Peter was nervous. Sorry for anything. Don't feel sorry about people's to Halloran. Wasn't worth it. Wasn't worth it. Believe me I know. Right I mean it's literally. Everyone is sort of put on the side of even the people who've lost their family members to police shootings in pop culture. Tell the cops over and over again that I mean actually my son, my husband Cetera had it coming Starsky and Hutch. Where one of the characters shoots a thirteen year old black boy, Hey! He's just a kid. To Kill the kid. Needs. He, Killed Money Act. His. And his mom is like well. I saw where he was going. I know what my boy become. A mother love. Child. And cares for her child. And more names. For her. But my the knows what her son his. I mean it's tough as crazy. Who will I also WanNa talk a little bit more about those scenes that you compiled because I think that that is really insightful in terms of our understanding of what it looks like when a police officer kills them, I think that. When you see those scenes in movies, they tend to be scenes where you have a real sense. Sense that the police officer knows what he or she is doing that. They are incredibly great marksman at that they can reliably shoot at who they intend to shoot out in the way that they intend to shoot at them, and that these are very thoughtful decisions that are playing out generally in the right way in front of a camera, and then that just. Creates alternate narrative reality, which is that usually when these things happen? They're totally chaotic and police. Often don't know who they're shooting at or why or how? Yeah and there's a real tension between the story that poplar tells and the actual legal standard governs weather police shooting justified, and I mean the that standard is something known as objective review bonus it's would another cop have shot someone in the same circumstances like level of fears of reasonable and yet why pop culture shows over and over again is that you know there isn't fear involved? There's only calculation. There's only excellent aim, and that shows up in everything from Fargo Hamar Garson. She's on the ice. She's heavily pregnant yet. She's able to sort of. A with this deadly accuracy, low key like an amazing scene. Yeah I mean you see this in the final sequence in hot fuzz, which is a comedy, but a comedy about how awesome cop action movies are where the main character manages to recall his shots in a way that allows him to disabled, but not actually kill any of the vital English villagers that he's going after you know, it's really interesting that extensively liberal industry has set up this just totally fictional sense of how these shootings work and you know. Initially they did it on behalf of police like the shootings on dragnet and Adam twelve. The officers were always really in control felt remorse about it, but they were always justified and. When I've been thinking about these shows over time you know, I think the depiction of the police in pop culture is both a subsidy for the police and. Talk for people who want to criticize the profession. But ultimately it's also kind of bad for the police to because this is a standard that notion being can possibly me as Stanley that is counter to the legal standards that govern whether their conduct is justified. And it's just. It sets up a collision between fantasy and reality, which is now documented in real time by people with camera phones that is unsustainable and. If it's not sustainable mistreats, it may not be sustainable on screens. When you look at the current landscape of movies and television shows that feature police de you see an evolution in that, or do you see narratives that are more fair or more acknowledging the problems that people experience with police in real life and I think that one of the great things about. The last fifteen years of fifteen twenty years, the entertainment industry is that as audiences have fragmented. You have shows that are just very different from previous entrance in the John Laura that have been able to stay alive for four or five or eight seasons. Telling a different kind of story that maybe doesn't have the same kind of mass appeal, and you know the capture that it ruined talks about is the wire actually left it out of my most recent column? Just because the the the sort of chorus replied is being well. What about the wire whenever you talk about police? Culture is just exhausting. Because the wire depicts corruption with a police department, and you would say that many of the good quote unquote good characters are i. think what the wire does. That is interesting is that it treats the police as a bureaucracy among many bureaucracies, many of which are affected by the same problems, the same inability to change and vulnerable to the same kinds of sclerosis and Shannon and. I think police departments have often been treated as sort of sacrosanct and distinct and what Simon David Simon. Who created the wire did in that show is said that the police organization like anyone else. Look I'm sorry I brought this whole mess up to begin with because frankly if no one's going to do about it anyhow. Whoever killed him wanted to pass it off a suicide. The cops are happy enough to have one less murder to investigate on top of that. The Anna Rundle's state's attorney doesn't give them. I'm not supposed to give. Your son, just gonNA squeeze between the sides. And that some of the bad guys are police, officers, and some of the good guys are the people who are arrested not that there are good, I think it's David, Simon and so they're not really good or bad characters, but people who tend to empathize more with, and it's not just that it's that you know. Putting on a badge doesn't transform you into superior species of human police officers can be defined by self, interest and bureaucratic infighting and family ties just as much as anybody else. He gave them back their humanity, and a lot of ways in A. Cultural Environment that insists on day finding them sometimes to their detriment, but that's still just like one show rate I feel like I wouldn't say that. The sensibilities of the wire are really reflected in all. These other cop shows that we see on TV to this day. No I mean I think the most interesting mainstream can counter example to that is Brooklyn nine nine is created as half hour police comedy, and there have not been a lot of police companies you in part, because crime is serious, but Dan Gore who worked on parks and recreation, created this show set in Brooklyn's initially with the sense that a like hipster Brooklyn would be a place where there was a certain amount of ridiculousness that you could translate into a cop story without losing the thread about the seriousness of prime importance of the work. Love the I walk through a crime scene. It's kind of like arriving at summer camp except the lake is full of blood and your bunk, mate his daddy I think I might be bad at metaphors, so after Adams comes over more killing person who even approaches doorways, this delivery guy. Yeah, but he never enters the apartment. You Rosa. Check it out triple digits. Evidence we triple digits will cool indeed, you know it's not cool or vic ordered dinner from house of Lettuce. There's no way this guy knew he was gonNA die. No one would want lettuces their last meal. But this show has been really serious interested in a lot of ways about gay dandy politics of police departments, and about that push and pull between me appeal of the action. Kat Model, and what's actually required by the job which inch do policing well requires. The ability to get through a lot of boring stuff, the ability to talk to people and our personal relationships. Yeah, community relations ability to be patients. It requires a level of procedural correctness that is rarely translated particularly well to drama. And I really haven't spoken to Gore in a while. Certainly not since the current upheaval, but the he and the cast the show donated a hundred thousand dollars to the National Health Fund said that they were in accord with protesters and I feel for them to a certain extent. Because you know what I was initially writing the series and twenty sixteen. You know they were ahead of the conversation in a lot of ways but they were also. There were things that the format of the show didn't allow them to right. I, mean it's a it's A. It's a light hearted comedy. You're meant to be founded. The characters and I think that this is a difficult moment for reformist. Because you know when I spoke to Gore for the series, you talked about wanting this wanting nine inch. Be Model for what police can look like. But, if you put forward a model of what things can be, that is not accurate to what things are or where it starts to feel like it's not accurate. Things can become that utopianism Kinda kernels into something indigestible. So what do you think is the answer here like went when you talk about having these TV shows all take a pause and take stock of what images are actually putting out into. The world is the answer to that we should be providing a better model for what cops could be like Brooklyn nine nine is the answer to that. We should be more reflecting the realities of what people experience at the hands. Hands of COPS, which often violence and unfairness and brutality, or is the answer that like we shouldn't be telling cop stories at all, or at least we shouldn't be telling stories that are from the perspective of cops, so and just beyond the question of the dramatic perfection of cop stories yup policing is important. Crime has a real impact on people's lives, and how it's addressed by the police, but narrative interesting answer morally important I don't want cop shows to go away, but they've been telling the same stories for almost a hundred years in part because those are the stories they had to tell to be on the air and. I think if we're in an environment where. There is more narrative space where audiences are willing to accept different kinds of stories, and in fact, maybe craved something different from the police then. This is a moment when innovation is really possible. You know I think about something light. Netflix's unbelievable, which was adapted from a really really amazing reported story about. A young woman who was actually pursued on charges that she had made a false report of sexual assault. When in fact. If? The police had taken her seriously. They might have caught a serial rapist earlier, and so the show is balanced in a way that few top stories are between the victim and the police officers. It's also balanced between officers on different sides of the debate about how policing is supposed to work, and you know what people know and understand about re cases, and so the answer doesn't have to be that. There are no cop stories or news stories from COPS perspectives, but one thing do could. Could be to give victims more weight in the storytelling. You could do more shows about how hard it is to solve crime I mean one of the core assumptions, and it's a chorus option because it's a good dramatic value about police storytelling that cops solve almost all the cases that come before them, but that's just not true. Almost forty percent of murders in the United States are not cleared. Number gets worse if you look at ray bill gets worse if you look at property crime. And I think that not requiring cops to be action heroes, not requiring them to be perfect, but allowing the human and allowing them to be. In a complicated dynamic with their communities could be really valuable both for audiences, and for the police I think one of the things that people have said repeatedly during this moment of reckoning is that we asked the police to do too much. And I think it'd be worthwhile to look at the full range of what the police do, and telling stories about sort of the totality of the job, and what it's like to do it what it's like to seek help from the police and not get it what it's like to be a copy of a case that you can't solve I think those are all valuable stories and I think the. Ones that the American public seems to have some hunger for so I hope someone decides to take the risk and tell them. Elusive Rosenberg writes about the intersection of culture and Politics for the Washington Post opinion section. By, the way, you might be interested to know that after we keep this conversation, there was actually a pretty major development. The reality TV show COPS has been canceled after thirty years on the air. Another police reality show called by PD, has also been canceled and and making that decision network executives at Anne put out a statement acknowledging that quote. This is a critical time in our nation's history. They went on to say that quote going forward. We will determine if there is a clear pathway to tell the stories of both the community and the police officers whose role is to serve them. Hall. And now one more thing about the symbolism of clothing this week on Capitol Hill. Good Morning Everyone The justice and Policing Act establishes a bowl transformative vision of policing. America Congressional Democrats on Monday, had a press conference to discuss legislation that would reform policing on a national level. I'm Robin Given and I'm a staff writer and the fashion critic. In advance of that they all wore cantey clot, Stolz and they also knelt for eight minutes and forty six seconds. You know it was an incredibly visual moment, but it did not. Necessarily I think con across the way that they intended. The can't cloth is a textile that originated in Ghana. In the US it has been embraced by some African Americans as an expression of their culture, and so the county cloth misfired because the image of the legislators in the county cloth was divorced from information about the bill that they were introducing and the connection that they were trying to make between a legacy of slavery, and the current policing system was lost. Lost many of us had the privilege last year of going to Ghana to observe four hundred anniversary. Going across the Atlantic was a horrible. The Kid I do think that the decision to where it came from a place of Ernest solidarity, but the use the candidate cloth suggested that really it's only African Americans. Who should be thankful for or supportive of this legislation? When in fact, everyone should every human shed? The House Committee on the judiciary will come to order. While, Wednesday morning, felonious floyd came to Capitol Hill to testify at a hearing about police reform and racial profiling. Thank you for the invitation to here today. To talk about my big brother George. The world knows him is George but I call him period. Yesterday we laid him to rhys. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do. I'm the big brother now. He really talked about his brother, but also the pain in having watched. Video of his brother dying. I can't tell you the kind of pain. You feel when you watch something like that. When you watch your big brother, who you looked up to your whole entire life. I beg for his, mom. I'm here to accu to make stop. One of the most striking things for me was that he arrived wearing a suit, but without tie, and that was notable, because during his remarks at the funeral service, he talked about how he'd been unable to shake his brother, saying I can't breathe and that he had been unable to wear a tie. Enough is enough. There were also moments when you could hear one hand sort of gently pounding into the other hands right thing the people elected to speak with him. That was as physical as he got. because. There was the danger that he would be reduced to a quote. Angry Black Man I, didn't get the chance to say goodbye. To peer. While he was here. I was robbed at. It's almost in those quiet moments of Joust, a man being a man it cuts through the grandstanding, and it really gets to the heart of it all. which is that you know, people just want to be seen as valuable individuals. Robin Kevan is a fashion critic for the post. Manjit for post reports. Thanks for listening. Our executive producer is mentally Cossiga. Our senior producer is Maggie penman are producers are Alexis do Rena Flora's Lena Muhammed Jordan. Smith Rennie's for Noffke and Ted Muldoon who also composed our theme music. The Post Director of audio is just stalled. I'M MARTIN? Powers will be back on Monday with more stories from the Washington Post.

officer Washington Post International Association of C Brooklyn America State Police State Hollywood New York City Jack Webb George McClellan US Rosenberg Pucklechurch LAPD Dan Gore partner Washington Ross Helderman
The Long Hot Summer

Throughline

42:55 min | 1 year ago

The Long Hot Summer

"Early Sunday morning in July of one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty seven. There was a raid of a after hours bar in Detroit. Police had it under surveillance for several weeks of the early hours of Sunday morning last a rate of the premises and discovered an after hours bringing establishment, it was crowded or dozens of people there. They came together to celebrate someone who's been fighting in Vietnam. And they tried to arrest everybody. A large crowd gathered or curiosity turn to osteology. It began shouting disapproved their bottles thrown. Several store windows were shattered. Garbage cans were upended. Convents said on by eruption of violence and that simply spread. Celebrated round, squeezed. Shouldn't silent. Quiet everybody looking has been rating for more than thirty minutes. The people have been evacuated and get the firemen unable to respond. Pure they couldn't control a situation. The local police simply are overwhelming. Went on for days and days there was television coverage. More containing the break proved to be on realist governor halls out. The National Guard, no matter what the blues wanted to do. There's nothing they can do about. It was in the hands of the people the mob. The federal government should not intervene. Except in the most extraordinary circumstance, and then eventually pleads with Lyndon Johnson to send in hardened troops, Vietnam the fact of the matter however. Is that law and order have broken. In Detroit, Michigan behind tanks, and at least two hundred guardsmen may be more and they've got A. searchlight. I'll never seen a war like that with lose kids. Women love this. You wars with men on me. The fifth largest study and the country has earned a regrettable new title, cradle, bloodiest and costly as civil disturbance and the history, the American next. Hey I'm ranting. At Louis I'm random attack on this episode of do line from NPR. The kerner commission. Since the killing of George Floyd over a month ago, protests against police, brutality and structural racism have swept the nation and the world. It feels like a moment when a broader swath of society then in generations is acknowledging what needs to change? Maybe the closest parallel to what's happening today is the so-called long hot summer of Nineteen sixty-seven. When the combination mid nineteen sixties, racial unrest skip through more than one hundred fifty American cities, some called them, riots, others, rebellions, or American cities burned. Nearly all were provoked by growing inequality in employment, housing, education and police brutality. In Detroit, the damage was particularly bad. Forty three people dead hundreds injured thousands arrested and countless people homeless Time magazine called it the bloodiest uprising in half a century and the costliest in terms of property damage in American history, all of this forced a national reckoning, a hard look at the state of race, relations and segregation in American life. We come back. We're digging into that moment to figure out what happened why it happened and what we did and did not do to set us on the past where on today. This is Chris from Nigeria. Listening to two land I'm NBA. I love the show I. Support for NPR comes from Newman's own foundation, working to nourish the common good by donating all profits from Newman's own food products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org. Whenever you face a choice, it helps to think like an economist and this week on Planet Lenny Summer School will start off our course in economics with workout or your brain. How did decide what something newly costs? Planet money from NPR. During, the summer of one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty seven, the headlines were filled with news of unrest in cities across the country. It even inspired some songs. President Lyndon. B Johnson was unsure exactly how to respond to all this unrest. Yes, things were getting chaotic, but he was kind of offended after all he was the one who'd pass the Civil Rights Act in one, thousand, nine, sixty, four, which outlawed discrimination based on race, and he'd launched a war on poverty, putting in place, a set of progressive programs enacted throughout the mid sixties known as the Great Society. The Great. Society rests on abundance and Liberty for all it demands an end to poverty and racial injustice. To which we're totally committed in our time. He couldn't understand. Give it everything he had done that. African Americans were rewarded him by taking to the streets and participating in these riots. You know I think he's thinking. We're making progress. What am I missing here? This is Susan. Gooden I service as dean of the L Douglas Wilder School of Government and Public Affairs at Virginia Commonwealth University in Steve Dillon I am the scholar in residence at the history channel, also professor of history at the University of Oklahoma and I wrote a book called Shepherd Unequal the Kerner Commission and the unraveling of American liberalism. As things heated up in the summer of Nineteen sixty-seven, Johnson's aides were getting more and more nervous that he was losing control of the situation. They pleaded with him to make a speech to the nation show that he's a charge. A Johnson just refuses to do it. He just doesn't want to deal with it so day after day, Johnson refused. And finally on Thursday July twenty, seventh Johnson shows up at the White House, and he says to Joe. Califano is domestic policy adviser that he wants to do. Two things wants to give a speech to the nation that light, and he wants to announce the creation of a national commission to look into the pauses of the rights. Okay, so why the one eighty? While Johnson might have thought that. If the commission's report linked the unrest to poverty, it might boost support for his great society programs. You know my read of history and of President Johnson is that he was genuinely concerned about urban communities and really understood that black Americans had significant disadvantages than white communities. And so it was really sort of a natural extension. A lot of Johnson's aides. To create a commission. Califano told him he'd be creating a Frankenstein. The once you create a commission like this, you have no control over it, but Johnson overrode those objections and went ahead with creative commission. But? Here's the thing creating a commission of this kind usually takes a few months in Johnson staff had less than twenty four hours, so there is a frantic effort to make phone calls to figure out who should be on the commission. It was clear that Johnson was a mainstream commission. Eat it and what young radical African Americans when the commission heated, what Really Hardcore Conservatives on the commission? So he wanted to create a commission that was broad-based, but also wanted a commission. That he could control. My fellow Americans. We have endured a week. Such as no nation should live through. A time of violence and tragedy. By ten thirty that night, Johnson had his list of names ready I'm tonight, appointing especially Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders. OCTO- curnow. Illinois has agreed to serve. As chairman. Shots in chose him because he knew kerner wanted a federal judgeship, and he thought he could use that as leverage to hold over him so that he would do what he wanted mayor. John Lindsay of New York. Service Vice Jerem he chose reluctantly. John Lindsay the liberal mayor of New York trying to provide some balance on the commission. It's other members will include read our harish a moderate to liberal senator from Oklahoma Edward W Brooke who was a African American, Senator from Massachusetts James she common. The United States representative from California. Hi, W., a. l.. The Labour leader is there. William McCullough the US representative from the State of Ohio the fourth district text Thorton a fairly conservative businessman from Texas, now living in La Herbert Jenkins. The chief of police Atlanta, Georgia probably Wilkins the executive director of the Lady Katherine Peden. Commissioner of Commerce the State of Kentucky, but she really she rarely speaks. He rarely says anything, Commission. If you lost count? That's eleven commissioners in total. Eight white men to black men and one white woman. And this was their objective. The Commission will investigate the origins of the recent disorders in our cities. Johnson asks the commission to answer three questions. One is what happened. Second is why did it happen and third? How can we prevent it from happening again? So, that's all the instructions to commission dot. There were given no instructions as to how they go about answering those questions. They also weren't given much money. Initially about one hundred thousand dollars, so they were handcuffed initially from a resource standpoint, and even though Auto Kerner was technically the chairman. It became clear from one who was really in control on that very first day John. John Lindsay Charge of the commission, and he continues to run the commission right up until the final day. When the report is issued, Lindsey was much more liberal than Kerner. He had his own political ambitions, and wasn't interested in pandering Johnson's agenda. He and other commissioners pushed for more independence from the White House in order to figure out the answer to the first question. What happened to cause the riots. They hire a whole. Bunch of investigators feel teams that would go into these areas where whether unrest in these teams would interview. Local residents every day working class, African American, citizens, local leaders and elected officials about their experiences in life and learning about their stories in seeing their communities in all of that, there were then the a team. Social scientists in the social scientists were charged with answering the second question. Why did they happen? And then the commissioners going to obviously filter all this information and come up with the answer to the third question, which is what should be done. The press was watching all of this very closely and. These field teams go out to these places and a lot of reporters show up, and and it's truly a high profile thing. Meanwhile, Johnson was getting angrier by the day. This wasn't the commission expected. It was highly ambitious and being led by a liberal. He tried to throw a wrench in the investigation by blocking any more funding for it. But, the commissioners managed to recruit help from other departments. As information started to come in from the field. The commissioners traveled to different cities to see for themselves. What was going on? And those first hand, upfront personal conversations think aloud commissioners to hear see and understand the realities of deeply entrenched structural racial inequalities. They were struck by. Just how horrible conditions were in these areas? How unresponsive local officials were everything from housing to education to sanitation was in desperate need of repair. Keep in mind. Most of these commissioners had spent little to no time in black urban neighborhoods. So this was all really shocking for them they are is this proverb says only the. The wear knows where the shoe pinches. and. I think members of the commission through those visits. Began to fill a little bit more with that shoe felt like. There was one issue in particular that kept coming up in almost every city, the one common denominator that united all the rights. They were all initiated either by. Police, brutality, or by someone who believes they had witnessed police brutality. They were hearing stories from some of the local residents about how how the police would. Beat people up for no reason at all. How they are costly being harassed by the police. And on young kid said to them to the police are just thugs with badges. This finding set off a lot of debate among the commissioners and the word riot was part of that to be. Given the issues black Americans facing some of the field investigators thought those riots might be warranted. If you decide that they're rational. They're not riots anymore. They're uprisings. They are a form of protests. And it was the only thing that was available to them. Because all the other avenues of change where blocked off, but the more conservative members of the commission refused to support any report that condoned riots as rational. As the commissioners began to put pen to paper, they were determined to accomplish two things. Come up with a report that had unanimous approval from the commissioners, but still conveyed their findings accurately and right in a way that the average American could understand so they meticulously went through draft at draft, rewriting sections cutting others making compromises finessing language especially when it came to policing, the evidence suggested that police brutality was. was at the heart of the unrest, but finding the words proved contentious very disappointed in the section. It condemns all police. Early drafts emphasized just how rampant police brutality was and how poorly police officers were trained to deal with racial unrest, and some commissioners thought the language was too strong. Police have human fears to, and they got caused to be fearful in the ghetto back to the drawing board again again. Finally after eight months it was ready a version of the report that every member of the Commission agreed on. When we come back, the kerner commission goes. And the police. Fightback. My name, is, John, Eliot I'm calling from Edmonton Alberta Canada and you're listening to through line on NPR. Thank you very much bye now. Support for this podcast and the following message come from K. Buxbaum in support of the David, Gilkey and Zaba ULITSA Mono Memorial. Fund established to strengthen NPR's commitment to training and protecting journalists in high risk environments these days Chelsea handler tries to keep her and her friends white privilege and check starts like really getting weepy, and I was like what what are you doing? Quite for Jillian, you can. Talk. I kept crying. Comedian? Chelsea handler on white privilege and a new book listened to it Bennett from NPR. Man Of. The law enforcement officer the question of attitudes. is in those he will deal with. Is Up tremendous importance. This is a police training film from the nineteen sixties. It's called play. Cool a question of attitudes. In this scene, the narrator is breaking down in interaction between the police and a few guys hanging out next to a parked car from this point of view is looks like this. Young man having a little innocent fun on a street corner walk. A couple of accidents. Approach them nightsticks the uniform. Creates a hostile menacing image. One of the officers randomly jobs one of the guys with his night stick. Pauses. And the narrator jumps in to critique. The interaction unnecessary physical contact further escalates the sense of stability. Because I called you. Who? Get off the car. During the nineteen sixties films like this in collaboration with the International Association of Chiefs of Police to encourage different approaches to police work one more geared toward social service. Under both Kennedy and Johnson several landmark Supreme Court cases mandated police reforms, which meant more training and more checks on police. Not everyone was happy about these reforms, especially, police, officers and their Union Reps. They see themselves as second-class citizens as victims as people whose rights have been denied. This is Erin, Becca Meyer he's a PhD candidate at Harvard, whose research focuses on the history of police unions? They look at reform efforts. They look at the pressure. They're under from civil rights and black power protesters, and from other sort of protest movements in the sixty S, and they say we're just trying to. You know as they understand that work. We're just trying to do our jobs, and you have all these people who are showing up and telling us we. We can't do them enough and succeeding in placing restrictions on by ability to do them. This was a pivotal moment when the police union movement and the reform movement came to a head. I think it's important to think about the sixties. Not as a moment where sort of out of the blue all this happens, but it's the culmination of decades of changes that have been taking place. Police reform efforts had been in the works for years and many police departments had been resisting those efforts. It was an ongoing and escalating battle, so when reformers gain more significant ground in the nineteen sixties, police unionists began to push back hard. They lobbied for more power more protections, and in some cases they got it all the while. Police brutality remained a massive problem as the kerner commission members had discovered. It was the match that sparked the unrest of the long hot summer of nineteen sixty seven. And the tension between reformers and police unionists would ultimately shape. What happened when the Kerner report was released so before we get back to the Kerner. Commission, WE'RE GONNA. Take a little detour into the history of police. Nineteen Nineteen Boston. And eighty percent of the city's police department was on strike. They were demanding better wages better hours, better working conditions. And the mayor of Boston wasn't having any of it. With the police on strike, robberies and riots were breaking out across the city. He sent in the militia to wash the protests. And the governor of Massachusetts Calvin coolidge called for a return to law and order. No right to strike against the public team by anybody anywhere anytime. Boston was placed under military watch for the first time since the revolutionary war. Things escalated. Troops opened fire on the crowd. Killing several people. and. The strike is totally crushed. All the officers are fired. It's national news in it dampens little nascent momentum. Police unionism is a whole might have had at that period. After the failure of that strike police win attempt to unionize again in any meaningful way until after World War Two. For a Lotta. People police in unions were like oil and water to things that should not mix in facts. One of the main roles of the police during the first half of the twentieth century was to suppress worker strikes and other words to resist unions. So there was a clear contradiction there. Meanwhile millions of black Americans were fleeing the Jim Crow South and settling in northern cities where they faced intense segregation and discrimination, and the police department was an some sense of very general and kind of blunt maximum of enforcing that. Around the middle of the century, the police and their mistreatment of black communities started to come under scrutiny on the one hand. You have reformers who are sort of good government types who are interested in municipal reform and fighting corruption in various forums, breaking up the old political machines that dominated city politics and all these big cities in the US. And then on the other hand, you have a sort of broad civil rights movement type coalition who are interested in curbing police brutality. Personal opinion that they usually are brutal. They like the thirty comes with the badge and uniform. Many African American groups in in that umbrella, also some white liberal groups and radical groups of various kinds. Their Lotto is supposed checking third, but they don't protect the black caps off the ghetto. They more or less. Arrest Them. Over the course of the forties and fifties, more mayors in cities nationwide began implementing police reforms. The reform movement was gaining momentum, and this didn't sit well with a lot of police officers. So for the first time in a long time, they began to unionize again. During the nineteen sixties, this tension between reformers and police unions was at a boiling point. No longer just a local issue under president, Johnson the Supreme Court mandated more widespread police reforms, which made it a national issue. Eunice her saying we're sick of all these reforms that have been going on for so long and we really need a political project. It is going to stop them and in back. Well the chaos of the civil rights era and the uprisings in the summer of nineteen, sixty seven. Gave them that political project the tension of Negro disillusionment is in the air, and so is white anxiety with both seemed out of control. Many black Americans were taking to the streets. Cities were literally burning, and a lot of the white public was scared. Some politicians adopted a law and order platform the people in their homes across America. No it. People in taverns watching television. No these people are revolutionaries. Band found the destruction of the government of the United States of America, there appeared in police. Unionist also seized on that fear and say look. There are so many disruptive and threatening things going on right now, and what our job is is to protect the fabric of society from all of these various disruptive threats. We are here to protect you and in order to do that. We need the protections and. Funding and everything that we would achieve through police unionism to make sure that we can actually do our jobs. It worked police. Unions managed to flip the script. They were granted more power in cities across the country than they've ever had before. And, so they go from seeming like a sort of particular interest that might threaten the public interest to saying no, our work is the essence of the public interest, and there are many people who sort of vigorously rise to to support them and say that's right. The mood of the country was shifting in favor of police just as the kerner commission was preparing to release its report. And this set up a dichotomy that would be hard for politicians, especially to navigate. You were either on the side of police and law and order, or you're on the side of social justice reform. In February, nineteen, sixty eight, the commissioners were all set to deliver the report to Johnson and the world. They were supposed to have a reception at the White House and their big press event where all the press with comments, and they would hand the officially hand the report the Johnson. But Johnson caught. Wind was in the report. And it made him mad. Really mad so Johnson cancels the public that he refuses to accept his copy of the report, he won't even sign the. Thank you letters to the commissioners for having served on the commission. Johnson was so furious. He felt betrayed by Kerner. He believed that Lindsey was using report court to launch a campaign against him in nineteen sixty eight weeks going to run for president. He's paranoid The end of the day Califano. Charleston created a Frankenstein Monster. What was in the report? That made Johnson's so matt. And how would the rest of the countries react to it? Will impact those questions when we come back. This is Jay Harvey North Coast. You're listening to through. NPR Gun. Support for this podcast and the following message come from the Walton Family Foundation where opportunity takes root more information is available at Walton. Family Foundation Dot Org. In February of Nineteen, Sixty, eight, the kerner commission completed its report. And Man was it a report? The comprehensive. Four hundred twenty six page document was intentionally written as a compelling narrative in the hopes that its policy proposals would really pop and catch the public's attention. The summer of Nineteen, Sixty, seven, again brought racial disorders to American cities, and with them shock, fear and bewilderment to the nation. The. Worst came to quartz proposals were big for the time they were deep systemic. Proposed major changes to housing policies, urban planning, education, anti-poverty programs and policing. With, the price tag ranging between thirty, two one hundred billion dollars. We have visited the right cities. We have heard many witnesses. We have sought the counsel experts across the country. A lot of these proposals aligned with President Johnson's priorities. However at the heart of the report was something Johnson and many others did not see coming the commission's. Belief that white racism was the cause of urban unrest. The report said and I quote what White Americans have never fully understood, but with the Negro can can never forget. Is that White Society is deeply implicated in the ghetto why institutions created it? White institutions maintain it. And White Society condones it. Evening not quite two months ago as we reported the President's advisory. Commission on Civil Disorder warned that race hatred threaten to tear this country apart. Events this month have may report with set to be released on March first, but what happens is it gets leaked to the Washington Post the day before the members of the commission were so afraid that Johnson was gonNA. Try To bury the report. That someone leaked to the press and the Washington Post. LEADS WITH A headline that says white racism is blamed in riots. Very close to that, and so that becomes the headline that gains a lot of momentum in the media. It made a huge splash was remarkable that a presidential commission got the type of attention that it got. The President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders gave this warning to Americans. Tonight front page of every major newspaper. Our nation is moving towards two societies, one, black, one, white, separate and unequal long stories inside detailing the findings of the commission the recommendations for Change. Unless drastic and costly remedies are begun at once, the commission said there will be continuing polarization of the American community and ultimately the destruction of basic democratic values. And when the report was officially released through publisher. Let's just say it did better than most. Do Today report turned out to be a runaway bestseller? Seven hundred forty thousand copies were sold the first three weeks. More than a million are now in print, Bantam books, which published the first edition calls it the fastest selling paperback, since Valley of the dolls, which it does not precisely resemble in style Beitcher. Whose Papers Your Times Washington Post Los Angeles. Times all praised it. Liberals also embraced. It embraced the recommendations. The President Johnson wasn't so happy about the report's findings, even though he had to give tepid support publicly privately, he was enraged. The main reason for his anger was the price tag and the scope of the reports recommendations things like creating two million jobs within three years giving loans to high risk business ventures, drastically increasing support the schools in black communities, producing six million new housing units in five years. And putting in place, specific gleese reforms to Kerr. Police brutality president. Jack Johnson felt that the report. Did Not give enough credit for the work that he and his administration had done through the great society programs in the world poverty. He thought it was so unrealistic. For these people this commission to ask him to spend thirty billion dollars when Congress cutting funding for his existing program, so he just felt that it. It made him look bad. When Roy Wilkins one of the two black members of the commission was interviewed a few years after the report came out said I. think that the word racism and particularly white racism frightened President Johnson. He didn't feel like the president wanted to go down. In history as the president who wanted his finger at his own people. The Lyndon Johnson wasn't the only person who was unhappy with the commission's report. There was a significant portion of the country who responded negatively not only its recommendations, but to the report's emphasis on police brutality. Newspapers in the south and the West. Were dismissed it as another liberal grab bag another expensive government program That was unrealistic. That spent too much time criticizing the police, not criticizing the protesters themselves Richard Nixon. WHO's gearing up for? His presidential campaign develops that attack, arguing that it spent too much time criticizing the police. This is art of his fat form. Is The mall in order platform? It dowse baton completely any implications white Americans. It's more on behavior individual behavior lawlessness, so it's while overall. It's impact was enormous in terms of of the amount of coverage gut. It also revealed these deep cultural divisions that were emerging coming out of the nineteen sixties. And you might be wondering what the police unions make all this. How did they respond given the fact that they've been pushing hard to counteract a lot of the reforms? The report was advocating to expand. Well according to Aaron Becca Meyer. Not well so I mean insofar as the kind of policing specific kind of recommendations in projects that come out of the. Commission play out! The prescription is more professionalization. Better standards more training higher educational, standards. community relations programs all these kinds of things, but the way the police unions figure into that is that these are problems from that for them from their point of view that they have been fighting against for decades already they see these is exactly the sort of things that are in some cases they even use terminology handcuffing them and preventing them from. From doing their jobs, and so this only kind of further spurs the resistance of police unions to these kinds of of reforms. It's not sort of framed in a way that their pathetic all. It was clear that neither president. Johnson nor Congress was going to champion most of the proposals set forth by the commission and Senator. Lindsey was vocal about his disappointment as the vice chairman of that commission. which spent seven long months analyzing last summer's riots and drawing up solid proposals to stop them at the source? I'm severely disappointed by the failure of the federal, government. To implement the commission's bipartisan recommendations. We are not moving fast enough or far enough. We are not convincing the people in the slums that our government truly wants to help them an auto. Kerner not echoed these sentiments. Well, there's been no watch and there's really been no discussion about it and the committees in the Senate. If just wide fallow. No movement at all pro or con. In my judgment, the primary responsibility for absence of action rests with the Congress of the United States. Most were disappointed. That despite all the attention that got. That most of the programs, they ambitious programs they call for were not enacted. in terms of major initiatives that came out of the Kerner Commission that lasted. You know there's there's not a whole lot. But I do think one of the lasting impact of the report. Is that it does put white racism. As a factor. into. Structural inequities that we see and differences in outcomes that we see between White Americans and Black Americans, and that was huge to have a presidential commission report. Making those claims. The kerner commission came along in a time of great upheaval in America. In addition to the unrest in many cities, there was the Anti Vietnam War movement and a series of political assassinations, and the findings of the kerner commission just added to this volatile environment. It created a sense of America was unraveling was falling apart and it it allowed Nixon to create this. This language of cultural populace of that was his appeal, the law and order, so it definitely set the stage for not just Richard Nixon, but The, the Modern Republican Party. Every Republican. Candidate or president, since then has. Their the appeal to law and order many ways is sort of a habitat below the need to bring back. Memories of racial unrest in the nineteen sixties. Kirk Commission believed that having A. Having a bipartisan commission, the mainstream people to produce a report like this. They really hoped that it would change the conversation in America about race and unrest, but it did not. In, fact, following the Kerner Commission Report Police Force in the United States became more powerful, not more regulated. Nixon's war on drugs gave police more leeway to arrest drug dealers and users and many police forces began their steady process of militarization by acquiring surplus equipment and weapons from the military. And the harsh reality is that the diagnosis of the problem lead out in the Kerner Commission. Would be accurate in many American cities today. Raj Chetty and economist from Harvard University says quote. We still live in environment. Fifty years later were African. Americans are still living in fundamentally different neighborhoods and have access to fundamentally different schools, jobs and opportunities and according to Steve. Gillon. Perhaps the problem with the Kerner Commission report wasn't just that. It's diagnosis of racial injustice came along at the wrong time, but also that the expectation from commission members was that its findings would be a game changer that somehow it would fundamentally make a difference. I think that one of the problems the. Commissioners had was public. hubris given how deeply ingrained racism is in the American DNA believed that you could create a report that would. Significantly change the conversation that would get people together and search for common solutions with just a little naive, and I think it'd be just as naive today. I just don't see how. Any report today whether Kerner. Commission came out today or another report. That says something very similar. The interest groups are so dug in the partisan. Ship is so hardened that I just don't see. Think. We need to report to Thomas with the problem is the problem is still the same as it was in nineteen, sixty seven and I don't think another report would really have a significant impact on on the way we talk about racism. That's it for this week's show. I'm Rhonda. I'm Robert. Bluey and you've been listening to live from NPR. This episode was produced by me and me and Jamie York Lawrence Woo Lane Kaplan Levinson Julie Kane. He Jacana Tastes Natalie. Barton Niger Eytan. Fact checking. This episode was done by Kevin Vocal special. Thanks to Alex. curly! Austin. Horn Alex Chong's for their voiceover work. Thanks also to Camille Smiley on your gunman. Our music was composed by Ram teen and his band drop electric, which includes feed Marvi show Fujiuwara Anya Mizutani. And one last thing we wanted to ask. Something of teachers were thinking about next school year. And would maybe like to sneak in summer assignment. Are there episodes of through line that like your students to hear. Are there particular episodes that you found useful in teaching history that isn't in textbooks or doesn't get the treatment it deserves. If so we'd love to hear from you. Please leave a message at eight, seven, two, five, eight, eight, eight, zero five again. The number is eight, seven, two, five, eight, eight, eight, eight, zero five. If, you have an idea or something on this show, please writers at through line at MPR dot org, or find us on twitter at through line NPR. Thanks for listening.

President Johnson kerner commission kerner NPR Kerner Commission Report Polic president United States Commissioner America White House International Association of C Lindsey Boston federal government Time magazine Advisory Commission Detroit
Chief Steven Casstevens 8-23-20

CATS Roundtable

08:55 min | 1 year ago

Chief Steven Casstevens 8-23-20

"Hi. This is Jay Farner CEO rocket mortgage making the right financial decisions has never been more important. We can help guide you to those right decisions. Now when they matter most mortgage rates are near historic lows. So when you call eight three, three, eight rocket or visit us at rocket mortgage dot com to start your refinance, you'll be well on your way to saving money every month, the rate today and our thirty year fixed rate mortgage is three point three, seven, five, percents APR Three, point, five, nine percent right now could be a great time for you to take some positive financial steps forward with a cash-out refinance from. Rocket Mortgage which could give you the boost that you're looking for. In addition we may be able to help you refinance with little or no out of pocket costs at rocket mortgage were committed to every client every time no exceptions no excuses giving you the best mortgage experience call us today at eight three, three, eight rocket or go to rocketmortgage DOT COM to learn more rates subject to change one point eight, seven, five percents this discounted rate call for cost information and conditions equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states and mls. Number. Thirty thirty Good Morning America this is the cats roundtable John cats bts here Sunday morning. Law enforcement what's going on in our country? Was this morning Stephen Kosta. Stevens chief of police of Buffalo Grove Illinois and First Vice. President of the International Association of Chiefs of Police. Chief tell us first about the organization and how many people you represent I mean chiefs of Police you represent. So again while I am also chief of police in Buffalo Grove Illinois outside of Chicago, I'm the current president of the guys EP and the ICP's the oldest and largest law enforcement executive leadership organization in the world was formed in eighteen, ninety, three in Chicago. We currently have over thirty, one, thousand, five, hundred members of law enforcement leaders in one hundred and sixty five countries. a lot of the problems going on in I guess specific cities or specific states how many of those cities or states are you involved when with those problems about? Our law enforcement people don't feel that politicians have their back. Well it. It's a difficult situation to watch across the country and in even speaking with some of our law enforcement partners and other countries that are experiencing. Similar protests and riots, but certainly, not to the extent that we are in some cities in the US. I really I feel for some of the law enforcement leaders in some of the cities around our country like Seattle I've known chief Carmen Best for quite some time I think it was an incredibly difficult situation that she was placed in Seattle, and as you know, she recently announced her retirement. And I really think that she's an incredibly professional chief and I really feel for the situation that she was put in but she wasn't going to put up with some of the things are putting up with including the defunding police and putting police officers in a position where really they're making it very difficult for police officers to do their job to make arrests as we normally would long before this this stuff all begin. Is. There any particular cities Oh states that you feel that? The. Police. Are Demoralized. Because This kid that big lose their jobs if they don't follow the politicians instructions while I, think what you can see the the strongest indicator and some of these major cities are the number of officers that are quitting or retiring, and you've seen that New York, you've seen that in in Chicago record numbers of police officers have just said I'm done either I have enough to retire and I'm going to or many of them that don't just say I'm done and I'm moving on to a different department and this isn't just New York and. Chicago and Portland and Seattle, it's several large cities in California too and officers just say I'd I'd rather go work for a another city where where I have better support and a lot of officers just feel that they don't have the support of their elected officials and it's very disheartening, I. I was the President about ten days ago and I recommend it to him that the attorney general should start a civilian review board or Lawyers Review Board. To Review Local D. as local trade general's local politicians that go after our our leaders in blue. And maybe they're not getting a fair trial and he liked the idea how do what do you think of that? Well. I. Think what's the that some of our leaders are being placed in very difficult positions where they've had decades of experience in law enforcement and they know how to lead an organization but sometimes they are held back or Hamstrung by either local or state of officials that won't allow them to take the action that they think think need to be taken, and of course, that goes then that reverberates all the way down through the ranks of the law enforcement agency and I mean you know as well as I do as a police officer if you feel, you don't have the support from your city that's the biggest thing that will demoralize you. The other thing that's what's going on is attorney Channel Bar I. Think he sent the feds into was nine ten eleven. Cities to make federal risk when the local people were not able to do it you seen expansion of that well, I don't know if I seen expansion of it but I think it. It certainly set a tone in some cities when you have federal officers coming in as you said, making arrests for federal crimes specifically when they're protecting federal courthouses the he has every right in my mind to send those officers in there to protect those federal properties and we've seen too many times and some of these larger cities where these alleged protesters who? Are actually antagonised posing as protesters are burning down buildings and trying to destroy courthouses and destroy police stations. This isn't peaceful protesting. This isn't accomplishing anything. This is organized crime those people getting paid or at least some of them. Well, it depends on who you believe I saw a a post recently on facebook that somebody was circulating. That it was in some city in Arizona that was advertising on the Internet that they were looking for five hundred quote unquote actors to be hired to show up at the scene of a protest, and they were going to be paid to be protest actors so and I've seen too many of these things. So it's for anybody to say that. people aren't being hired or recruited to take part in these protests and riots they're dreaming it's happening. Chief we have a minute left. Tell us. What do you want to tell the American people? Well, I think my biggest messages Let's think back to what you thought of law enforcement a year ago or five years ago or ten years ago when law enforcement had a much more deal of respect by the public and I think for the most part, the majority of the public still respects the police and want the police in their community. I think what we're hearing from is a fraction of our population that are claiming that police need to. Be funded and they need powers taken away and they should take away qualified immunity and things of that nature i. think that's an incredibly small facet of our population but I think we need that larger facet of the population that does support law enforcement to step forward and say so because those are the people were not hearing from I agree with you one hundred percent chief cash Stevens. Thank you so much everything you do for all America and. Please, keep doing it and we'll catch up with you again real soon. Thank you very honored to be on pack you this is the catch roundtable we'll be right back.

Rocket Mortgage officer International Association of C Chicago Seattle America Stevens President Jay Farner attorney US CEO Buffalo Grove Illinois Stephen Kosta facebook John cats New York
Episode 122:  #SurvivorStories Series with Nanette Chezum on officer-involved domestic violence

en(gender)ed

1:04:55 hr | 10 months ago

Episode 122: #SurvivorStories Series with Nanette Chezum on officer-involved domestic violence

"Hey there, podcast listeners. Welcome to engendered the show that features stories that explore the systems practices and policies that enable gender-based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it we use gender as a lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonize hearts and Minds one story at a time and gender to sponsored by can do it. Spelled k a n d u i t and I'm your host Teri Jaan. On this episode of the engendered Survivor Story series we speak with no nut cheese mm, the Survivor of officer-involved domestic violence or domestic violence with a police officer. We speak with the network about her experience as a Survivor the response from law enforcement and how her experience was both informed and enabled by a culture of sexism misogyny and victim-blaming in law enforcement that intersects with police brutality across the country. We also explore the relevance of proposed reforms such as defending the police and restorative justice to building a culture of accountability for a news. Welcome to net. Good morning. Thank you for having me Teri though. This is obviously a conversation that's first about you and your experience but I'm also really excited to get into you know, what's happening on a larger scale the macro scale the protests that are happening across our country and its reverberations across so many different parts of our society, but let's start with your story first. Can you tell us briefly? What was your experience like as a domestic abuse Survivor in an officer-involved police violence relationship? Well back in the end of 2014. I decided to explore the world of online dating for the first time and my ex boyfriend and I actually met online June and March of 2015. We finally met in person and everything appeared seem to be a great connection in the beginning and the patience of escalated very quickly and looking back. Now. I could certainly say that it seemed too good to be true at the time which in and of itself is a red flag, right, but I didn't understand that at the time and the the abuse was verbal and psychological and it escalated rather quickly within the relationship, but I did not understand the definition of offer you some domestic violence. I thought abuse was strictly physical and I had no clue that abuse could be verbal psychological and the other forms that were aware of under the table. Well about three weeks into the relationship. I noticed he would speak to me in a very commanding tone of voice a very authoritative tone of voice and would have a very commanding presence Iraq much like law enforcement officers are trained to do on scene. Right? Well that that carried over into the relationship and there was a lot of a lot of gaslighting awful lot of psychological manipulation your typical abusive relationship where things are easily twisted around back onto the Survivor and I noticed that the relationship didn't feel right, but I couldn't Define it. I didn't understand what was wrong. So being a person who traditionally has been a people-pleaser so to speak now, I thought I could make things better and I excused away a lot of his behavior and blamed it on his job. Specifically. I think we all off That being a law enforcement officer can be very stressful and there are a lot of things that they do have to deal with on a day-to-day basis that I certainly would not be able to deal with and so I had a lot of respect for that and gave a lot of leeway and made a lot of excuses for his behavior. I had a girlfriend who whose husband was in law enforcement. I couldn't started confiding in her and talking to her about his behavior and the way he was treating me and dismissing me and she she couldn't relate she said her husband is not like that. So that's Thursday is not her experience. And so I started to kind of shift and see things in a different in a different light and think well, maybe maybe it is him. And so there were times when I would call him out on his behavior and his treatment of me and he would always excuse it away or turn it around on me. And we had many incidents where he was starting to escalate in terms of you know, specifically one time. He was very upset with me because I didn't leave a restaurant when he took to need to leave the restaurant. I was actually in the middle of eating my salad and he wanted to leave right then and there and I thought it was a joke, but he wasn't joking and he made me get my salad to go off. We proceeded to go to his vehicle and he proceeded to yell at me in the car telling me that when he tells me to do something I better do it and he proceeded to pound his fist on the steering rack and that was a moment that I'll never forget because it's it's scared me. It was the first time he actually made me fake. How far into the relationship with this at that point that was four months into the relationship the steering will incident and it took me to my core literally off and figuratively and that is when I started to shift a little bit about four months and and started to kind of wonder who is this man who may hate and there were other incidents where you know, he wanted to force me to be a mountain biker. He's a mountain biker. He loves to mountain bike, but he wanted me to love it as much money as he did or does and I was not feeling it and he was very forceful and intimidating. He he gave me lessons. He made me take lessons with him and he said that if I didn't enjoy mountain biking in a very Stern tone of voice, it's going to be a problem. Now, how does one interpret that? Well I interpreted it off. Is either the end of the relationship or as a threat that something bad would happen if I didn't like it didn't enjoy it. So there was a lot of that coercion. There was a lot of intimidation and just a lot of kind of a paternal attitude towards me like I was a child and he was my father and so approximately 7 months into the relationship, you know, I started to take a harder look and became curious about him and who he is and so I Googled his name online one night and I didn't find anything and it's still wasn't sitting right with me. And so I decided to Google his nickname and I found a a public profile for a dating website and Thursday Atlanta this sense of dread and my my my my stomach my heart everything just sank. And I knew something definitely was not on the up-and-up here and I confronted him and of course he denied it off. And came up with all sorts of excuses which logically in a moment. I can look back and realize I wasn't buying it and I and it just didn't feel right to me and actually two days after I confronted him and he denied it. I was sitting at work one day and he sent me a text message while I was at work saying that you know, he contacted the dating website and they took the link down and his it was an advertisement and he didn't give them permission to use his image as an advertisement. I mean, it was a total waste story and then at the end of the text message, he wrote something to the effect of having said that I don't think this relationship is going to work out because you have trust issues. Were you struggling with that gaslighting or at the time did you were you easily manipulated by it? Like did you did you believe in an eternal eyes it like. Oh my God. I do have trust issues. What's wrong with me with? No actually, I knew I didn't have trust issues because at that point I was so far into really questioning him and who he is and my body was physically reacting to the signal. I was getting that I knew I knew it wasn't me? I knew it wasn't and after some time went by after the relationship ended. I I started to question was any of this real was any of the same thing happen? And it was just this really surreal experience that I'll never forget and you know, I looked at it logically and I said he flipped it back on me and I thought about it a little bit more and I thought well, you know, if you think about it after the the coercion and the gas lighting and the intimidation and and the chastising and the power and control issues. And not feeling right about him. Well at that point. Yeah, of course, I was starting to have some trust issues obviously hello, but you know that was pretty typical throughout the entire relationship and I have I have so many incidents that I wrote down and I still have that list to this day and speaking of that list. I initially created that list to vent and to never forget and to process month after the relationship ended September 17th of 2015 several months went by and to continue the process of processing. I wrote an email to his to take a police and I had no intention of sending it was just a way for me to like get it out and I checked that draft in a smile and it's probably about six months after the relationship ended. I was still kind of struggling with him not being held accountable as all of us. Do you know we want the birth? Is a person to be held accountable and about six months afterwards. I opened up that draft and I reread it and I and I fixed the grammar and I fixed the spelling and I made a decision right then in there the universe aligned and said send it and I sent that email to his chief of police and it highlighted what had been happening to me during the seven-month period that here and I work together and I hit the send button and I felt a sense of empowerment and I sell felt a sense of relief and I didn't expect anything to come of that email off at all because by that point I had already started researching officer-involved domestic violence and had already reached out to other survivors that I Came Upon or They Came Upon me online and I realized you know for a lot of these survivors. It's very rare to get Justice because of The Thin Blue Line and because of the Brotherhood and the connection and I was surprised about a week later and investigate. From a neighboring County and neighboring DA's office reached out to me via email and said that he was opening up an investigation into this and do I want to talk and I said absolutely and I was actually shocked not only that he had reached out to me but for an abusive relationship that did not involve difficult thought it was strictly verbal and psychological I was surprised and when I presented at conferences or I speak to sororities or I speak to law enforcement. I always make a point to talk to applaud that particular beef because I thought he would just file me away and nothing would come of it because it was verbal and psychological and not physical and I applaud him and I still to this day every time I I give a presentation so I met with that investigator and I spoke for an hour and a half and he just let me talk and yep. Left that meeting and drove down the mountain back home and I felt this huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders because someone that had power and control over my perpetrator new or was advised what had happened behind the scenes and who his officer is behind the scenes behind closed doors and I had an option wage I could read the report because they needed to talk to him as well. The investigators said we will talk to him as well and I could read that report and I thought heard about it for days and I decided I didn't want the report because at that point I had made so much progress compared to where I had been six months prior in my healing. I didn't want to read the report because I didn't want to get angry. I was done being angry. I wanted to just move forward with my life. And I knew that his version would be full of manipulation and half-truths and lies and I just didn't want to go there and it was the best decision I ever made because that dog Was exactly what I needed to move forward and to heal so I do not know specifically if he was terminated because of what he did to me, but what I can tell you is that he is no longer employed at that department. And the last I knew he was no longer employed as an officer of the law in a state of Colorado when you decided to end your relationship, you said you dated for seven months. What was that experience? Like was there resistance on his part? No, no. No. He's the one that actually ended it remember that. I had trust issues. Oh, so I thought that was just a conversation. And then that was it that was his wow. So you were very lucky very, you know in the context of all of this, right right, and you know, I'm very lucky in the sense that he didn't employ any stocking type dog. Big Sur least none that I know of, you know that I was aware of but but that was that so what's what's interesting. Something else. I want to really highlight here is you know, when we're young Survivor gives out of a relationship. There is a lot of of processing that needs to be done and a lot of things about him just didn't feel right and one of the things that didn't feel right to me is I kept thinking I cannot be the only woman that he's ever done this too. So I actually used to be on his social media and I had remembered some names that kind of stuck out that would occasionally comment on his post her like his post and I remembered who those women are, you know, the universe works in mysterious ways. There's a reason I remember those names and one woman in particular that I reached out to was an ex-girlfriend of his when he was a law enforcement officer in a different state and I respect her and they were together for about two years and she validated me. She verified everything off. He was the same way towards her and that was also something that helped me heal. I'm I'm sad that she had to go through what I went through as well, but I realized I'm it wasn't me. I'm not the only woman that he did this song and he was actually terminated from that other department in the other state because of his act of violence not against her but another woman that she knew in that particular town that he inflicted violence on and so it's it's a pattern with him. Right? So I've had friends of mine who have dated law enforcement officers and you said verbal and psychological abuse. I mean, they don't need physical abuse because they carry weapons. So if it leads to that then surely it would result in more severe consequences for them more obviously severe consequences. And that's the whole point of coercion that you don't even at the threat of violence the threat of yep. The fear, whatever other tactics they're using psychologically to subordinate you is is enough. Yes. I want to address that issue. Now our national speaker on this topic very interested in officer-involved domestic violence. What's your understanding in terms of the state by state guidelines that are required for someone to become a police officer and in terms of psychological assessments, you know, I've heard that there's we just had a guest on our show whose specialty is sexism and misogyny victim-blaming and she does she has worked on attitudinal testing walk around sexism and misogyny and we discussed on that show how wouldn't it be great for us to be able to add attitudinal testing and so many different fields and I'm guessing law enforcement is not one month. Like they're not testing for their degree of domination and power control and and used towards women and black people and other minority groups. I'm guessing, right correct. Now a majority of departments will employ psychological testing with a psychologist that the department has hired to do that work for them. But as as many people may not know or may know I don't know, you know, there are some folks that live were very good at the seat and unfortunately the ones that are really really good job, it can manipulate psychological testing and there have been studies done on that as a matter of fact and there are a lot of departments that say they do employ psychological testing do they I don't find out I would like to think that a majority of them do because it is it's very imperative that they do that and have it in their file. I do know that there are departments that will periodically birth Maybe three years into employment do another test but that in and of itself doing that additional testing when they're already in the door is very rare in a perfect world. I would be able to bring people perfectly that's actually a challenge because you know in my case with my ex-boyfriend being terminated from another department previously in a career not all departments are equal in terms of the type of digging that they do at an HR level and particularly some rural communities, you know where it's hard to recruit officers. You know, I I would hate to point the finger at every single rule Police Department in the country and say that these skip steps but unfortunately, I've heard some stories where there are departments out there because it is hard to hire more they will skip a step or two and bring people on the force who maybe aren't as desirable and should not be working for them but out of desperation dog. Hear some undesirable folks under their force and that's a whole other topic that we need to look at. I would like to think that there are more departments that are looking perhaps using more strict screening tools. And I hope that that continues they say they're going to and unfortunately because I'm not on the inside. I don't know if some of these these tools are accurately being used or not. I wish I could speak more to that but I can't I want to be careful on us being using the term psychological testing because in no way do I think psychological testing is is a an accurate assessment tool for these kinds of you know mindsets like we've talked, you know, it's not about the wage College. It's not a mental illness to be a sexist misogynist. It's a mindset right? So that's why I refer to our guests as attitude and they'll testing on the other hand there have a game. Their personality tests, which are different personality tests are the Russians employed personality tests to identify who on Facebook or the kinds of personalities. They could easily easily manipulate 2016 election and which groups, you know, they could Target for for hate and and so those personality tests are based on how extroverted you are how open-minded you are how conscientious you are, you know, the ocean psych personality test for example, and so to the extent that people who are drawn to a profession like law enforcement where you're going to have a set of tactics that you're going to be trained in to use as part of your job and those tactics are about exerting power over a group of people that you're supposed to be the citizens that you're supposed to be serving and protecting. There's going to be a certain personality and so it's really about how do we assess number one the person a log? Me but how do we change the kinds of people that we attract to that profession so that the incentives that they have for doing well are shifted right? It's just about you know, how many people they're arresting but how changing the outcome so it's about to what level are they keeping communities safe and healthy and you know, sir, I think a lot of that stuff off the top and that starts with leadership that starts with the chief of police first and foremost and I think as time goes on and I've been in this movement for for five years and I think that as time goes on I have actually met with some shoes of police in the state of Colorado and there is a shift happening. It's not happening fast enough for me, but there are some Chiefs out there that are a little bit more Progressive and they're babies and I don't necessarily mean Progressive politically but a bit more Progressive in their views about the types of birth. Oops that they're hiring on and there are some shapes that are very cognizant of the fact that that profession does draw folks with power and control issues. And you know, they they are attempting she kind of scream that out a little bit earlier. But again just like with any sort of testing, you know, if someone knows what's happening on the receiving end of that test, you know, things can easily can easily be manipulated and I keep using that word because it's such a dominant trait in most abusers that I find it hard to believe that we can get a hundred percent screen anybody out personality test psychological tests at cetera but it starts at the top it starts with leadership being more informed and Leadership communicating with other dealership and coming up with innovative ways to try to assess these folks out who do have these issues and you know, we're in a very interesting time right now, unfortunately with the birth Of George Floyd where people are starting to scrutinize much more closely law enforcement and departments and Leadership than we used to and so in that sense. I think it's going to force some departments to have to really take a look at how they need to reassess what they're doing and during their hiring practice and and keeping on top of folks, They've already been hired and walked through the door and hold each other accountable and have a zero-tolerance policy for any sort of abuse of power and to call that out or intervene when I see it or hear about it and Empower their other officers to not feel fear or intimidation if they do choose to speak up about a fellow officer who is employing tactics that are abusive on the back behind closed doors. Well, I mean, that's kind of besides a culture shift, which is Big it's also really hard to do because I mean, I don't have any personal experience. But just from consuming television and films but if your partner is corrupt and he carries a gun and you know, he has ten different police officers behind him her going to stand by him. You don't know what's going to happen one day when you're walking home exactly you're going to befall upon or your family. And so if it's you know layers and layers of option not to say that these institutions are corrupt, but they're they're certainly not prone to positive change because of the ways in which you know, the members of those institutions off and hide behind violence and intimidation, correct. What do you propose we can do to start building that culture from the inside not necessarily from the outside in terms of external pressure. Well for me personally what I've chosen to do, I actually reached out to law enforcement and I and I meet with them because I discovered fairly early on that. I can talk to this person or that person but until we actually change the culture from within nothing's going to happen. And so what I've taken it upon myself to do is actually meet with law enforcement behind closed doors and just tell my story and share my experience and and help them understand from a survivors perspective what it looks like when your perpetrator is in law enforcement and all of those barriers down reporting that that happened for victims if they choose to report their law enforcement perpetrator, and that's what I choose to do, you know, and I occasionally will speak to players and let them know about this issue. I mean, that's not a very scalable model. It's not bad one person and I'm just doing here in this job. Could change because it is such a wall a huge wall to overcome and you know here in Colorado. We just passed a law that goes into effect in 2023 we can perform and you know part of that is any qualified immunity and requiring body cams and you know that we were the first state to pass over form Bill and you know, I'm all about reform if it can protect law enforcement if it can protect citizens, I think everyone wins all around and so I think that's that's part of what I'm trying to get people in this state to understand is how how he needs to be included in that reform because of correlates to abuse of power on the street kind of power happens at home behind closed doors as well. So slowly but surely people are starting to make that connection, right? I mean, I've always said when you look at when you look at organized crime And when you look at I mean one of our guests is was a former Chief Crown prosecutor in Britain, and he prosecuted gender terrorism. So crimes that were included domestic violence and coercive control honor killings Gang Related incidents sex trafficking child marriage. So all of those fell under the term gender terrorists and you know, we've also seen in the US that in Quincy, Massachusetts, there was a prosecutor there RDA there who you know realized that a neighborhood prison had majority of the inmates had a history of domestic violence or abuse and so that domestic violence is it's like with adverse childhood experiences is a precondition for setting up a child for a future Harms in terms of physical and mental and psychological relation. Up and employment disruptions and dysfunctions. And so to the extent that we can prevent or address domestic violence often creates systems of accountability for domestic violence. We can keep it from creating societal harm like with mass shootings. I've always said every time you look at a mass shooter. There's some home of sexism misogyny or domestic violence has been ignored and if we actually did something about it, they wouldn't have harmed other people in society. And so I guess to the point that you just made about reformed example body cams. Lots of police departments across the country have body cast but they turn them off, right and what are the consequences? Like if you're not going to have enforcement of them they should be fired right? I think because if they're turning them off, there's something they're hiding obviously and so they've already committed whatever those if they fall under like a civil code or something. They should at least Choi. Find and centered in some way the just the turning it off. Is it of itself a form of obstruction or or conspiracy to commit some kind of crime would interpret it as that as an outsider and yet police departments across the country are letting police officers get away with it every day. Yes. That's true. You know and and like I say when I when I speak I you know every Department can put an officer-involved domestic violence policy in place within their Department only 33% of departments actually have an o i d d policy in place but no problem is enforcement policy. And that is a huge huge wall that I can't seem to get over. I mean I can go in and I can speak to law enforcement officer long. I can speak to you all day long I can speak to program Advocates and system Advocates all day long. But once I leave the room if they're not putting into place what I suggest or what I recommend or enforcing birth. Already have in place, right? So in terms of creating systems of accountability, what can we do as a society, you know, obviously there's a lot of people fighting for ending qualified immunity for police officers, which is the first step where police officers basically are shielded from any kind of civil or criminal convictions. Right? Is there such a thing as a civil conviction, I guess so maybe so they're shielded from civil and criminal convictions and not and not convictions claims charges charges. Yes, and and so to that extent. Yes, it's the first step, but then you also have to make sure like, let's say we're going to now be able to go to court with them. You want to make sure that the people like the judges and the other decision-makers a jury members are shifted in their mindset as well that they don't have this passage. Officers or omnipotent kind of mentality where they can do no wrong and they're if they're testifying they must be telling the truth when we know that's not the case with correct a lot of juries actually side with officers because I don't know about you but I grew up, you know believing that everyone tells the truth and people that were the uniform tell the truth and they have to be honorable and they have to be reliable and trustworthy and you know, I personally have experienced in my relationship. That's not the case. That's not a qualifier, you know, unfortunately all the time in the job description. It's supposed to be but it's not always in my case with my ex-boyfriend and juries have a choice to believe law enforcement officers over anybody else and that is a huge barrier when it comes to reporting as well when survivors Choose Or Not choose not to report is dead. In and of itself tends to favor law enforcement when complaints come up via the public whether it's domestic violence or not. And you also have six days, you know, the system itself is very reliant on law enforcement they partner together. And so that is that is a huge fear that a lot of victims have, you know, well if I report not only am I am I going to be believed or not, but if it even gets to court are they going to be dismissive of me? Are they going to are they going to side with the law enforcement officers because they do work so closely together. So that stops a lot of victims in their tracks right there from even reporting because you your mind automatically just to the Future and how far this can or cannot go and if you don't get anywhere with with the Department itself, you're not going to get anywhere Beyond Justice beyond that department. And so, you know, not only does it start with m. Ship but it's going to take associations like the International Association of chiefs of police. You know, they have a model policy that they recommend and yes, they know that they're only young so CA shyn but I believe that they need to be way more vocal about this issue than they are and they need to get this out into departments across the world because this happens in other countries as well I d d and they need to have a more vocal voice about this issue and stop letting and hide in the shadows and we need to stop making excuses for officers office that perpetrate domestic violence and sexual violence. And we need to hold them more accountable. We need more domestic violence programs local and National to push start really vocalizing this issue and not be as afraid and I know that there's a lot that goes into speaking out about oh i d d but holding these folks off. Well, I'm having these conversations and calling them to task and calling them out on this issue. You know, I'm only one woman and I have a lot of energy left in me. But some days I'm exhausted because I feel sometimes like I'm taking all this on and and it and it's it's my pleasure to do so because I feel so passionately about it, but you know right off and talking to the ICP If they don't follow through after I've already written that letter had that conversation within their walls has to hear it from law enforcement, but that's the whole problem that I think so much of our society has refused to address systemic sexism and misogyny and you know, even in the nonprofit sector of organizations who are serving survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault. I've been, you know, if you if you listen to my podcast I've shared very frustratingly birth. I've been trying since the George Floyd protest too. Cuz this is now part of you know, our discussions in advocacy meetings have been trying to say can we also have anti-sexism training like everybody is starting at least to make the move towards implementing some sort of anti-racism training which is great but it's not intersectional. If you don't talk about sexism wage sexism is at the root of so many of these, you know issues. It's especially when you're talking about sex based violence and oppression like sexism is the root of it and and if people are going to be in positions of power professionally paid by our tax dollars, you know to enforce protective orders for example, or to quote unquote, you know protect and serve the community. They should be screened out if they have sex system massage. Gymnastic ideologies that prevent them from doing their job and since covid-19. So many times again. And again how orders the protection are being ignored, you know by police officers. And so it's already been determined by a judge when you have an order protection. Yes, there is some, you know clear evidence that this person is in danger or it's going to be harmed in some way and this other person needs to keep away, you know, and if that's not being enforced we need the police to step in and the police are just kind of, you know, throwing their hands up in the air with such indifference and and almost contempt. I've heard in these circles. Yes. Unfortunately, I don't I don't know if you've if you've looked into this yet or not Terry, but there was a case involving Jessica Gonzalez vs the Town of Castle Rock which was you know, all the way to the United States Supreme Court and it's just specifically says, you know off Forcement they don't have to yeah, it's not mandatory. Thanks to Justice Scalia. It's not mandatory for law enforcement to enforce protective orders, which is why we need that. Hey. It just comes back to just doing the right thing. Why can't they just do the right thing? We have to have mechanisms to incentivize people. So there are consequences. Right? And and so I'm all about, you know, having citizen oversight board's and I am all about people really reaching out to law enforcement which a lot of people young people just don't feel comfortable doing it. I do I do because it's what I do and I feel comfortable doing it but, you know people have, you know, speaking up, you know, and and not letting people suck your voice and I know that sometimes it's easier said than done but you know, it really takes citizens to really to watch these folks and these officers and and the leadership dead. Saying we're watching you and luckily luckily, you know, the media is becoming more aware of officer-involved domestic violence specifically. I mean, if you look at my Twitter page, it is. News articles about officers that have been fired for not only you know sexual sold but domestic violence or who had charges placed on them for embezzlement. I mean it my Twitter page, it's everyday. I'm finding some article about a law enforcement officer who's done. The wrong thing has committed a criminal act and so the things to the media this is being brought out more and more in the open house at least during the last four or five years that I've noticed since I've been doing this work and it takes more people to just bring it out in the opening and question leadership and say hey what's going on here, you know and holding them accountable and putting the spotlight on their departments. And sometimes in an unfavorable light until they until they do something about it and it's it's hard work. It's it's exhausting work at times but it's work that's very important and needs to be done and it does take it off our community to do it. It takes the media takes me it takes you it takes people to not consider this a private family matter any longer because domestic violence impacts every single system off in all communities, it impacts our educational system and impacts our Healthcare and impacts our our our our Healthcare System. It impacts Public Service public safety. There is not a single space that is not impacted by domestic violence. And the level of lethality is even scarier when your perpetrator is a law enforcement officer because they have access to those weapons. They know where their shelters are. They have relationships inside the DA's office and they have a lot of power and off. Need to start spotlighting this I agree and like you said, it permeates all aspects all sectors of society and when you don't take officer-involved domestic violence, seriously, these individuals are going to go out there and you know harm the community they're going to use the same tactics on others. I put that in quotes others, whether block people or poor people or communities that are disenfranchised and some other way because they can they can get away with it because they're getting away with it at home. Right right off and you know, the status thing about this is not necessarily what I what I personally experienced something that I that I really have a problem with is, you know, his abuse of me really awful really made it hard for me to trust law enforcement and the work that I do, of course, I'm exposed to a lot now about what happens behind the scenes in law enforcement job. Culture and misogyny and sexism and having experienced that and witnessed that myself in doing this work, but that trust was taken that I had found, you know, there there. There are a couple of law enforcement officers in this state that I communicate with who are kind of helping me rebuild that and they truly are good guys and they get it but again, they're only one or two ago. Yes, and and I I I know anecdotally that's from my friends who have been involved with law enforcement. None of them have been positive relationships. They've thankfully ended those relationships but some with you know, some fear still because one law enforcement officer like you were talking about stalking with cyber stalking her still a new age, you know lied about his weapons how many he had and you know if he lied about it to her. He probably lied about it to his department. And so if one of them were to be used and the wage Committal of a crime there's no proof that it ever existed. You know, I I'd be curious. I don't think anyone's really done a study on this but I'd be curious to see the rate down women that have been alleged to commit suicide when involved with a law enforcement officer because I've heard many cases of women that have supposedly committed suicide like the Michelle O'Connell case down in Florida that happened her ex-husband still has not been held accountable for that and her family the has been really trying hard to get him to be held accountable. But you know speaking of weapons, you know, how many women have gotten ahold of their boyfriends service weapon and not suicide with it? It happens and I'd be curious to see what the statistics are on that. Well, I I think I hear your Nuance there suicided birth. There are suicide and there's probably both right because when you get to a point of Despair where nobody in the system can be your ally you can't trust your police officer ex-husbands supervisor or whoever is above him or above him. Then where can you turn to and if you're living in fear, you're living in fear of your life because you're being stalked cyberstalked and your child or children are being threatened in your friends and family that can make you become very despondent and feel very guilty. And I've you know, I know many situations that have been thankfully haven't led to that outcome, but certainly those those thoughts passed through and and we also see this long in any situation where survivors are not receiving accountability and they're being victim blamed like in their hunting ground documentary on campus sexual assault so many of those stores Is of the rape victims were told by their parents because they had committed suicide. So this is this is the case across any situation where we need to do. We need to count those in the data as well the statistics because what I'm trying to do is make sure that we're capturing outcome data in family courts, but those outcomes has Isn't just the outcome of who's getting custody who's whether the custody is getting placed within the abuser. But whether the Survivor and the children later on they get killed or committed suicide or maybe suffering a long-term chronic health problems because of the exposure to trauma living with abuse. Now what other point I would like to mention going back to internally at Department wage. We've got to stop promoting these guys when a spouse when a girlfriend comes forward and says he did this he did that he abused me and Internal Affairs launches an investigation job. And you know, it's it's credible. You know, we've got to stop promoting these guys. I can't tell you. I know a woman in Florida. I know a woman in New Jersey and took their divorces and the accusations the evidence evidence actual evidence was brought to the Department of physical abuse. Both of their ex-spouses ended up getting promoted two or three years after all of this was brought to light. We've got to stop that. It has to stop and again that comes from leadership and that comes from organizations like the iacp and be very clear and you know legislation. Unfortunately or fortunately has to get involved but it's getting legislators to listen and take seriously o i d v and not just crack in it and thinking that it doesn't happen as much as it does. Well, I also think that I know in New York. I don't know if you've seen the New York City Police benevolent Association log Came out and endorsed Trump a couple of weeks ago and Trump is like I call him a rapist and chief or predator and chief our traitor and chief. He's he's Arabic are in Chief. And so so any group of people who are endorsing him. Basically, they're showing that they endorse and are complicit with violence and rape and all of these other crimes whether they're immoral or criminal and when you see organizations like that backing Trump off as condoning, you know, what comes out of his mouth and his actions, you know, that's proof right there and is a perfect example of why people don't want to come forward and report and then you have people that actually back him and support him citizens not necessarily associations and organizations, but actual citizens including other women who who back him and support him. It's very disheartening and it is a prime example why in certain regards we can't move forward because they're overlooking who he is who is core his beliefs his behavior and that carries over into society that carries over into juries, you know, people that have that mindset to overlook that behavior and it's it's it's a very scary thing what's happening right now the backing that he has when he clearly has exhibited that he's abusive but he's a predator off and it's very concerning. Well, that's a great segue into you're talking about what's concerning on a on a sort of perpetrator instigator level. I want to now bring us to the discussion of what's concerning from an advocacy level. So I in only in the past I would say three to four years have learned. About this concept of quote-unquote restorative justice and it's apparently different from transformative justice, but sometimes it's used interchangeably and in New York when I was working as a Survivor member of some of our task forces and domestic violence, there's certainly a movement within the city and New York City has a lot of influence across the country in proposing restorative justice as an alternative to incarceration and so for survivors, I have relied on whom I call Em violence battered women movement Elders who have for thirty forty years, you know been working with survivors and they know the power and control Dynamics and they understand off course of control and they recognized and they've put out research papers showing that this is not an appropriate intervention for parent control situations, which is dead. Stick abuse, so I wanted to get your thoughts about that because within New York City the backdrop is such that course of control is as you know, a set of tactics wage that are used that include the psychological emotional physical sexual Financial abuse and coercion that keeps one person usually a woman in an abusive relationship and deprives that person of her Liberty her ability to do for herself. And so as Evans dark, you know says it's a gendered liberty crime and it's been criminalized in different parts of Europe and in Britain and we're working on that in the US here in various States. We have a working group on that and one of the biggest impediments to that page is this idea that you know, it goes against what's happening in our criminal justice system, which is racist like we get that the mass incarceration was based on the foundation of racist police wage. And so those people who are trying to end mass incarceration, which I support don't understand that if you criminalise course of control you can actually have a stronger school to do both you could have a both and scenario where people who are being arrested for domestic abuse under the term coercive control are not going to necessarily only be black and brown men now because those are the only crimes on the books on the penal code. It's violent crimes. And of course the control is made up of a whole bunch of other things like you experienced psychological a verbal etcetera. And so it actually if it were to be passed wouldn't necessarily put more black and brown men in prison, but more white men middle-class men an upper class men, you know people who are escaping the law right now, this concept of restorative justice was brought up because in response to our racist policing and mass incarceration because so many wage Come out from in are being put into prison but not for domestic violence for other crimes and communities of color are the ones who have been disproportionately affected by domestic violence homicides and in New York City they account for about half of our domestic violence homicides. And so what's happening is that a lot of the people like the DA's office prosecutors are saying we don't want to put any more black and brown men in prison, even if they're doing crimes, you know, they're committing crimes that are domestic violence related because these men are victims of systemic poverty and racism it's unfair to further traumatize these communities of color. So let's offer alternatives to incarceration wage Board of justice and it's based off of indigenous healing circles where people come together and the community has autonomy in deciding what is accountability for that computer. Eddie and I've been a very vocal opponent of restorative justice for domestic violence only because it's being used as an alternative to accountability off and and certainly it should not be used until both parties or outside of any system. Whether it's the police Criminal Justice System family court system child welfare system any system where they need to interact and there might be coercion going on outside of those restorative justice practices. And so I wanted to get your thoughts about that. What is your familiarity with that? I know in Colorado. So what exposure have you had there and what are the successes or or failures? Well, let me let me start off by saying that I I believe that people are capable of change. However, having said that they have to want to change and the system cannot force people to change they have to want it for themselves and they have to be ready to accept that responsibility in that account of accountability within themselves and to society. I believe that restorative justice Works in a lot of areas, but I am very skeptical when it comes to utilizing it when it comes to domestic violence often exactly. The reasons we've been talking about abuse of personalities are very very manipulative and I have very serious concerns about bringing a perpetrator in a house together to talk it out and to work it out via the system and that places the victim in a very bad position. Possibly be very manipulated again or putting that that woman's life in danger. Now, I do believe that we do need to make res more resources available for perpetrators if they choose to get assistance because right now in most cases, you know batterers into intervention counseling that sort of thing is ordered by the Sea. And you know, your average average guy isn't just going to walk into a therapist's office and say hey, I'm Joe. I'm an abuser and I need help. You know, we we have to we have to make people aware that there's help out there. But we also need to allow allow more therapists to get training and taking interest in that and take it seriously and welcome those folks in and and and and make those services available. But as far as you know a system using it to bring together and and and help a victim in a perpetrator. I'm not I'm not a fan of that. I'm not a fan of restorative justice when it comes to Dammam. Violence because it is just too volatile of a situation it's too it's too much of a danger to bring to parties together when one person of Faith too is is a violent perpetrator and extremely manipulative and I am not a fan of that at all and I have yet to personally see any examples may have been put forth to all of us to say. Hey this worked and he's great and he's living living a great life and and she's happy and everyone everything's wonderful. I have yet to see a case where that has a truly worked, you know years later and perhaps it's too early to tell I don't know but I'm very skeptical. Well, even with batter intervention programs the research results that don't actually look at let's say a year six months or a year down the line with the victim not just the battery itself reported data from the batter, but the victim saying wage I'm safe. I feel you know, I have autonomy. I have physical and emotional security and I have the ability to make choices for myself whether I'm in the relationship or outside of it, right and those the survey and data collection for batter intervention programs isn't even longitudinal. So, how are we supposed to know whether it works and similarly like a domestic violence like so much of you know, I always use the example if it's not acceptable and the racial context, why is it acceptable in the gender context? That means women are just so far down the totem pole that we don't even get the same rights and expectations as people of color. So the example for restorative justice is, you know, would you put George Floyd, you know his family with the killers in a restorative Circle. Yeah. Is that going to be accountability for them? Would you put a holocaust Survivor with a knob? And a circle why is I don't know everybody would laugh in your face. So why is it okay with a woman and her abuser just because she says he's going to change but his mentality is exactly the same as a white supremacist. It's a male supremacist mentality and you know that brings me to the point, you know, it's minimizing in my office and it's minimizing the flame that is being committed against women this violence against women. It's by using restorative justice in a sense. It's a minimize him. Well, this is what they're saying just so you know, they're saying black and brown women they want it because they don't want their communities to be further decimated and they they don't want their men should go to jail. They need them for to be able to contribute to the household economics and so my responses we need to have equal rights for women. We need to fix the gender pay Gap weenie dog. You have the ability to give women tools to empower herself so that she's not relying on some abuser and just just to take it a step further people who are supporting these practices just so you know, I'm not going to name names. Although, you know, if you look at my Twitter you'll see it is but there are some people who are actually saying in this defund the police scenario. Let's take some of these resources and give them to abusers to men because men who lose their jobs who are unemployed there is correlation with unemployment and higher rates of violence in the relationship and if we give them job training and job skills, and if they have that job security, they're not going to abuse as much and to me. I just I'm like if I could curse on this I would curse but like WTF like know give the money to the women y e Giving it to the men you're in you're increasing the systemic inequities and you're rewarding the abuser for abusing and I have no idea how people can justify this but there are people in the quote unquote Progressive Circles of defunding police and Criminal Justice Reform who are making these propositions and people are buying into it. It's dangerous. It's dangerous. That's what it is. It's extremely dangerous to have that mindset and you know that we could go on and on about this subject that leads me to another thing along the same lines, you know, it's always the one that it's expected to leave the home. Why does the woman why why do the children? Why are they the ones where we the ones that have to leave their the perpetrator? We pay me to leave you right? And we've been seeing this on the show forever. In other countries the if people say well where does he abused or go? The abuser Goes to Jail the abuser goes to jail and the victim and the children. Stay in the home. They're not the ones who are forced to go into the shelter and navigate the homeless shelters and disrupt their lives while the abuser doesn't have any consequences off and and that comes back to sexism and massaging. So here we are and and and The Advocates who are if you're working in the non-profit space your goal should be to at some point in the future not have a need for your service because Society readjust itself and Equitable and just way and some of these non-profits who operate shelters. They're all about keeping their shelters open. Well, why don't we change the law so that we don't need shelters. So that survivors can stay and they have the means to continue to pay for their rent or mortgage. Let's get rid of shelters, you know that are dangerous and use that money to put abusers in jail. Right, right, right, but that makes sense. Thank you know something makes sense off so I know obviously I want to qualify. Look it's not like from a prevention level. I think there's a lot we can do to educate Society. We need to make sure that the children that we're raising wages are not going to have these mindsets where they grow up to want to be to emulate police officers and people in power who use force and violence and intimidation as a tactic to maintain their status. Right, right and that requires getting into schools, you know, if parents are in healthy, how do we expect unhealthy Parent's Choice Healthy Children? So, you know, I don't want to put everything on schools because they're already so They've taken on so much and have to take on so much but if these school systems are allowing organizations to come in and teach about healthy relationships and consent, etc. Etc. Then Thursday, we're going to continue to have a problem. Well, we have so many ideas that we've brought up in today's discussion. I hope that this can be a starting point for our listeners to think about how we can Envision a safer and more accountable society and certainly is more accountable police force in this country. Do you have any final words that you want to share with our listeners about what they can do better? We have this hashtag called up standard tips what they can do better as an upstander to either their friend or family member or just us, you know, someone who wants to make make a change in society with regard to officer-involved domestic violence. Certainly, I would say two survivors birth. For most what it what what I always say, you know, it's not your fault. I believe you I would say to those within law enforcement that your culture needs to change and it starts with you found. It starts with changing the mindset and taking better precautions and having a more open. I in a more open mind to who you're bringing on to your force and paying attention to the wrong person that comes forward whether it's a private citizen on the street or a wife or a girlfriend who says, you know here we have a problem with this officer really use that as a red flag and don't dismiss it off and four program Advocates out there in the world start having this conversation because if you haven't yet you're going to have a no ID victim walk through your door and don't turn her away. I've actually birth stories of women being turned away from programs. Once they revealed that their perpetrators in law enforcement program Advocates reach out to your local law enforcement whether it's the PD down the street your local true. Office or sheriff's department and and start this conversation and come up with a plan with the chief of police with internal affairs. If a victim comes forward, what are you going to do? And how are you? How are we going to hold each other accountable because it's on the the advocacy side as well some folks that need to be held a little bit more accountable and just keep speaking out. Just keep talking if you feel safe enough to do so as a victim or Survivor because the more women that speak out the more women that talked the more we bring this subject matter to light the more women whose lives are going to be saved, and there's nothing scarier than having entire system against you, but if you speak out it's going to help the next woman in the next woman in the next woman, and I will never be silent about us and I hope the feel feel comfortable speaking out. You're never silent either. Thank you so much Nanette. You're welcome. Thanks for listening to this episode of engendered. The show was sponsored by can do a Q&A a peer-based knowledge platform that connects social service providers and advise a community and learning you can join can do a Q&A for free at q-and-a, I'd love to get your feedback. If any questions or suggestions you may have for the show, please email us at engendered podcast with your questions.

officer George Floyd Colorado Chiefs New York City Iraq Teri Jaan Police Department US International Association of c partner police Criminal Justice System Google Justice Scalia Facebook assault Dammam
BP This Week: "Silence in the Face of Evil Is Evil Itself"--The Killing of George Floyd

The BreakPoint Podcast

54:42 min | 1 year ago

BP This Week: "Silence in the Face of Evil Is Evil Itself"--The Killing of George Floyd

"This is breakpoint this week. A weekly briefing on faith culture worldview and mission with John Stonestreet President of the Colson Center for Christian worldview. Welcome to another edition of break point this week. I'm Shane Morris here with Johnstone Street to explore the stories of the week from a Christian worldview perspective. John we've got some tough issues to get to this week. Just tough stuff to talk about one. In particular as we record this Several cities are reeling from protests. Which in Minneapolis at least have turned violent and even deadly and all. This outrage is over the killing of another unarmed black man by police officers. We saw an incredibly disturbing video earlier this week of an officer actually kneeling on George. Floyd's neck beside his squad car while he begged the officer to stop and repeatedly told him for several minutes that he couldn't breathe and John. This is just a tragic story all around one that has brought out deep feelings for millions of Americans. It's horrible and one of the things that we have seen is if you go back to for example. What happened in Ferguson? A couple years ago it escalated over a period of several days and to some pretty Intense writing saw the same thing in the city of Baltimore. This in Minneapolis escalated really quickly. And I think it's probably due to a number of things The mental and emotional stress of kind of being uncovered lockdown is probably not a good factor in in all this but there's also a level of frustration. There's also this to Shane. Which is worth mentioning. That even you and I just a few weeks ago talked about the Ahmad Arbitrary case in which a An unarmed seventeen year old African American student football player was basically tracked down by two father. Son Duo a third person. Who's now actually been charged with murder since you and I talked about this with guns trying to do something called a citizens arrest and of course it escalated and it was just ridiculous and the video there even that video which to me. I looked at that and figured I can't imagine anything that will change. How bad this is. You know it's always awful when someone loses their life some of the The videos that have been part of this racial conflict narrative America have been supplemented or added to or you get a bigger picture and it changes things. The Amado Harbury case. It was hard to imagine and even then even then we had individuals who clearly coming from a position of racism. We're trying to explain that away. I haven't really seen I've actually avoided twitter. The last couple of days for a number of reasons mainly for the good of my own heart and soul. I mean some but I haven't seen at the same level. Anyone trying to explain this one away. Aggregate almost unanimous condemnation. It has and it's just so awful and then you watch it. I don't know how you watch this and not think you know what's interesting too. Is You often have cops in these situations when it involves? The conflict involves a police officer and a suspect or something like that that ends up deadly. You often have cops defending cops you. In this case everyone seems to condemn this Minneapolis. Chief fired four officers within twenty four hours of the East and then the heads of the International Association of Chiefs of Police and the major cities chiefs organization have all condemned. This particular officer's actions. It was nine minutes. I think that this officer had his knee in the back of the neck of this gentleman and and it ended up costing him his life. Even while bystanders are appointing saying he's unresponsive. He stopped breathing. You know there's all kinds of things is just horrific it turns some. Here's the other thing to Shane. That I felt like you almost guilty for not posting. Calm is almost like you're expected to post some. I was so disgusted. I didn't know what to say. I was so sick to my stomach. I did not know what to say. I don't know what to say for example on our breakpoint commentaries. We talked about that this week. Three and a half minutes. What do you say other than this is awful? There's no room for this on any level and certainly there's the issue of race that has been brought brought into this as if it didn't belong but the issue of race but it's this is just so far beyond the Pale. It's hard to know what to say. Well I think there's something meaningful in just saying that you condemn this that this is not behavior we should have in our country. This is not something we should countenance. And this isn't something that should become the heart of political Poof throwing fest. This is Chris. Brooks one of our board members of the Colson Center said on facebook quota Dietrich von Hoffer who said that silence in the face of evil is itself evil. God will not hold us. Guiltless not to speak is to speak not to act as to act and in the midst of something like this just saying that this. Is You know horrific evil and this transcends any sort of partisan boundaries or any sort of activists agenda we should all be able to say at the very least that no one should be treated this way. An image bearer of God is dead now because of this brutality and whatever other implications you think that has for society are secondary to the fact that this was wrong. This should never have happened. Yeah no question and it seems to be that this is the consensus that just about everyone's landing on I mean again the explanation to call a Marbury. A bad actor in that case is not. I haven't seen that in this one. It's just it's so heart wrenching but it also we need to spend some time talking about the race issue right because it's getting harder and harder and harder to explain away As some people are trying to do or have tried to do over the years this incident and this incident and this incident. It doesn't add up to the fact that we still do have some issues. Here we're missing. We're missing the whole thing if we don't see this as many see it which is as the latest in a string of incidents. This is the latest in a drumbeat of racial injustices. That's how it's received a huge percentage of the country and we need to be able to speak to that. Well you know one of the things that broke my higher in this issue years ago and I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago but when I looked into this issue at a level that I had not before having been raised a largely white community largely you know Southern kind of place and new disagreed on this issue and on all kinds of issues with liberals with you know even African American leaders who were politically liberal religiously liberal Christian liberals. We're talking about Jesse Jackson or You Know Louis Farrakhan or something like that. I realize we say if you don't support the killing of black babies than you're racist I mean that right. Yeah I mean All kinds of things disagreements. There I could find I but when I realized I disagree with my friends. Karl Ellison Chris Brooks it changed things for me and when you know years ago Chris and I talked about this on breakpoint this week episode where he described conversations that he had to start having with his children about you know when you get pulled over. This is what happened and this is what you do. Never do this and never do that. And you know on the list of important conversations. I want to have with my son. That probably is pretty far down the list For him it's at the top of the list. And this is at no level trying to say that all cops are bad actors in this the number of cops condemning this action for example are significant but it does escalate more quickly when it comes to the African American community. It does and are there back reasons for that. Are there you extenuating facts? Is there a history in in America? The answer to of that is yes and at the same time. It escalates more quickly when it comes to African Americans and that's something that has to be addressed whatever else the you know disagreements. We may have with organizations like black lives matter which there should be some pretty substantial disagreements for all Christians if you look at their You know stated agenda we should be able to recognize that those who I mean even like Colin Kaepernick. There's an eerie resemblance. Almost like a a foreshadowing of this particular incident. And the way you know. He took a knee during the national anthem and his intent. There whatever you think of. It was to protest on what he saw. A systemic racism. Issue in in regards to police brutality and so that's going to be reinforced now. Just immensely and we're going to have to be able to deal with as the we're going to have to be able to speak credibly to Our African American brothers and sisters and Show that we really do care. You know I mean we're speaking to white guys here. I think we need to. We need to take this very seriously. Look I disagree with Colin Kaepernick on a number of issues and I did. Of course I can be for example. You know Disagree on kind of how I think. Politics should work and how all of this works out. You know I I I can disagree with him on a number of issues and still think that I should listen right now more than I should talk and it just comes back. I was speaking to this morning even Shane of friend. Who runs another organization? That's not unlike our's and just the need again. It just seems to come back to this to walk and Chew Gum at the same time right now right you know I can. I can for example believed desperately that there are extenuating circumstances and that the rioting that has happened in response to this is wrong and awful and doesn't help the cause whatsoever and it actually is a disrespect of the life that was lost. I believe all of that and still think what this police officer did was wrong and still believe in the goodness of a whole lot of police officers and still believe by the way that not all police officers are perfect and that you know not all suspects are perfect and there might be extenuating circumstances and that this the forgery. Something that solicits. I can believe all of that. We WE'VE GOTTA learn to hold all of this together and say that there is a This has gotta stop you. Don't get get on a team other than the team of truth. We're being called to do this a lot today. It seems with this issue with the corona virus where you can say yes I care about. The millions now are filing jobless claims and I also care about those who are sick and dying in hospitals because of the virus. You don't have to pick a side you can care about both and then work forward in the issue. Yeah it is getting harder and harder and harder and and I think unless we continue to come back to the fundamentals where we start as Christians. Every single person is made in the image of God This victim this person who died too soon is made in the image of God. The police officer that made a terrible mistake made in the image of God. And I don't know how you even begin to process this outside of this. You know we also had I want to come to the other story that was initially told alongside this one but it's it seems to Pale in comparison to this one at any sort of level. Which is the story of? I guess the popular title is the Central Park. Karen you know where Here you have a New Yorker who is Called out for not having your dog on the leash Responded really poorly and actually called the police. You know basically threatening. Hey there's an African American man after me trying to kill me which obviously wasn't true the African and trying to actually intimidate the African American man by threatening to bring the police to him and not just because the police intimidate all of us particularly because of the history there. I mean it was just ridiculous and then you had The man that escalated quickly to her dog. She lost her job. She's the most you know hated person on twitter other than this police officer and can I also believe at the same time that the twitter shaming of people that she did something really dumb and wrong and maybe it was out of a racist impulse may be it was. She had a really bad thirty minutes. that you know if my worst thirty minutes were put on twitter. I'd be embarrassed to and she did it horribly and what she did was a racist act but I'm not sure she can show her face in New York City again at the Esscalation of things right now is so quick. How do we explain that? Which is why. We need to be careful to remember that. Each person is a is a moral agent and someone worthy of respect and dignity and consideration in the midst of a culture that wants to do everything trial by social media style. And in some instances it's just so clear that something incredibly wrong was done as is the case with the George Floyd incident the same this park incident but that doesn't necessarily mean that we are entitled to do justice as a social media mob And we have to be careful in response to that not to as what did rare say that she was crucified. Or or flogged or something along those lines by a social media mob and it it Harkens back to the whole Justine Sacco case years ago. Where this woman's life was ruined while she was on the plane alright planting because of a tweet she That was actually misunderstood. And then you know. She got fired in her whole life was changed and now she's she. It'll never be the same because of this twitter shaming so we got to walk and Chew Gum at the same time on a whole lot of different levels here. We also have to take a quick break. We'll be right back folks to talk about more of the stories of the week from a Christian worldview perspective. Stay WITH US. We invite you to visit breakpoint dot. Org and while you're at our website be sure to Browser Online colson center store of books and other resources and you can find links to our social media sites like facebook and twitter. We're back on break point this week. Talking about the stories of the week from a Christian worldview perspective John. One of the things that we mentioned in the last segment was the catastrophic economic ruined that's been wrought by the coronavirus and the shutdowns subsequent to that and we have a new report out this week that more than forty million people the equivalent of one out of every four. American workers have actually filed for unemployment benefits since mid-march at. This is just an astonishing. Tally that actually. According to experts rivals the bleakest years of the Great Depression and and people are continuing to lose their jobs. And it's just continuing to sort of escalate. The government is actually reported that as of Thursday two point one million people had filed unemployment claims just in the last week. The devastation is tremendous. And I'm not sure that we're ready to even deal with it to grapple with the human cost of this virus and You know our efforts to control it. Oh listen we're GONNA continue to feel this for a long time. I think it has to do with you. Know what we said early on that what we have to think about her both lives and livelihoods and and as the the trajectory of what we come to know about this virus changes almost all the time. And that's I think there's a number of things that are creating a situation that it is a bad combination and we. We talked earlier this week on break point about the pre existing conditions of the corona virus. In other words. The things that were already deeply in place That this is just making worse. So for example the loneliness the epidemic of loneliness of the deaths from despair Dr Famously said this week it turned out to be not statistically completely accurate but that there were more deaths at the hospital he worked out from suicide covid nineteen. I don't think it turned out to be true exactly right at his hospital. But I think we're GONNA have plenty of hospitals across America. Were that is the case. I know for example the when I'm hearing from Folks in kind of emergency response here in Colorado Springs and El Paso County that they are dealing with an awful lot. More calls in terms of And then of course Suicide and you know. This is connected. I've I've thought from the very beginning that this phrase What's it unessential worker nonessential worker? No work is noni central for a family. No jobs is not as check. Know Husband's job is non essential for their wife and children and for their own. Well being and for you know parents that they have to care for anything else and so this has just been a look again. Go in and said none of this was nefarious. I don't think that there's a conspiracy theory around this but there's a lot of ways we've messed this one up and I think we can you know give people the benefit of the doubt that they tried real hard but the devastation here and the unwillingness of some I think now we're seeing such a incredibly unwise move from some governors state officials to refuse to open up at any level And to do so in kind of crazy ways yeah I look hindsight's twenty twenty. I get it you figure it out looking back. Here's what we should have done. And no one knew we were making things up on the fly but I I think there is a attitude about work in attitude about worship in attitude about community that's being exposed and all this and those are attitudes fundamentally that will have to change. It's also helped me help for me to realize John that A lot of anger and sort of strong opinions on this are due to circumstances on the ground there due to the two loss of jobs and inability to make rent and feed families. This is of course it's GONNA EXCITE PASSIONS. Of course. It's going to give people the feeling that they need to have a really strong opinion on this and because of that we need to have extra grace with one another. There was actually a really great article. I read by Stephen Klug a wits. I think that's how you say. His name at the imaginative conservative and was called Magnanimity the BOM for our brutalized public discourse and it was a review of the fact that being gentle with someone and making it clear that you're on their side and you're trying to move in the same direction you know toward mutual understanding and wellbeing is actually how you convert people to your 'cause it's actually how you get people to understand what you're saying. And not a put down their arms. But we're just catastrophically lacking that in our current especially with social media current discourse. That would help my question. Shame because I think that's a good point and I go back to the story that we began with. Which is the story of the Week? Which is the most awful thing any of us have seen for? You know at least a you know a while and you think why are things escalating so quickly and that's to a degree where someone lost their life unjustly and just awful awful stuff but it just does this week in El Paso County here in Colorado Springs. An initial draft of directives from the local county commissioners to churches about reopening was sent to pastors. And so I read it and you just read through it and I thought if everything they said in this document is correct which it wasn't if every recommendation was a good one which it wasn't but even if it was the tone that they're using to churches. You shall do this. You shall not do this when it comes to communion. You can't do this. We had the same thing. What was it. I just saw this this week. I think it was in. Maybe marry the state of Maryland where the Governor says you any food or drink including those used for religious purposes or something like that can't be served in church elected officials first of all. Don't understand what they're talking about when it comes to this worship and secondly it's the attitude and the tone brought into the conversation it seems to be a real infection doesn't it I mean. How quickly could this situation with this police officer and this man in? Minneapolis have been Deescalate how quickly could it have been escalated? How quickly could the tensions between the citizens and Christians of Illinois and the governor? There be de escalated. If they were just be a different a change in tone. Yeah tone is not just style not just delivery how we speak to one another or how we act towards one another attitudes. It says a great deal about how we view one another about. What's actually valuable and worth worth talking to and worth considering you go back to the national prayer breakfast and Arthur Brooks terrific speech at the National Prayer Breakfast. Which caused a lot of people would be grumpy. But he talked about that idea of scorn. Just this sense that it's just a sense that people aren't worthy of our attention or people aren't worthy of our Might Call it quote the type letters and call it flippancy. Screw tapes says that There's no finer armor against the enemy that you can build up around a man's soul than to make him flippant the enemy of course in that context being God being guide right Koskoff for an angry and hateful toward everyone. You Talk With. It's just that's the state we are in in so many different contexts right now in our culture or we're gonNA take a quick break folks and we'll be right back after this to talk about more of the stories. The week from Christian worldview perspective By the way if you WanNa see the stories that we're talking about this week if you need links to them come to breakpoint dot org and we'll tell you how you can access all of those stay with us. You can learn more about breakpoint. The COLSON Center for Christian worldview when you visit breakpoint Dot Org. That's breakpoint dot. Org We're back on break this week. Talking about the stories of the week from a Christian worldview perspective John. Another one that sort of hearken back to my high school days this week we had the lead singer of a hawk Nelson John Stein Guard. Who's been the frontman for quite some time now As they become more popular and Christian radio he came out on on twitter and said that or not whether it was instagram and so that he no longer believes in God he's abandoning the Christian faith and it was just sort of eerily similar to a whole slew of Instagram of Pasta sees that we've seen from Christian celebrities in recent days the themes were so similar the notes he hit were just Eerily reminiscent of stuff. We've seen before and it makes me wonder. Is there a script somewhere for coming out as an atheist or as a Christian celebrity I don't get similarity is coming from here? Well first of all. There's a phrase called instagram posses. And just the fact that me or you but I'm pretty sure that you I think I've seen it around. I think I think it's called on but it certainly thing You know there's so much to talk about. I thought Shaun McDowell wrote a terrific Article Sean of course speaking as well for our truth love together event and he addresses some of the doubts and concerns that Johnston Guard actually mentioned which brings up at least one part of this that we should talk about but Sean specifically address this. I thought he did a terrific job. First of all not coming from a place of scorn and and we talked you know in our team this week that it's really hard because y is it that someone actually struggles with this you know. He admitted himself that you know the band wasn't really together anymore. At least has hadn't performed in quite some time and yet you know. Let me still go on instagram. To tell everyone why why why I mean what's the point of that. Why make a big announcement of it you know? We talked about Josh Harris Case. For example why hire a photographer to have a wistful photo looking out into the middle distance? What's really going on with that? That says a lot more about kind of cultural context of celebrity and and so wanted also says something about how it's it's easy to get a following with this sort of a story either denying Christianity or denying some essential aspect of Christian truth. And still calling yourself a Christian. We've seen both of those situations and both of those scenarios happen. You know. This is sad though. I I don't WanNa question the sincerity of his doubt of course and so on but we don't know what's you pointed out in a meeting. We had this week that we don't know all that's going on behind the scenes and we we really do with this sort of thing that objections that get. Put out there like you know. Scientists disprove God or what have good things happen to or things happen to good people which by the way are all included in his instagram post. Sometimes they're not really you know the real reason sometimes they're they're fronts or or excuses for what is actually happening behind the scenes that we don't know this guy's heart so we're not sure we don't. I mean but a couple of things to say is. Those are the go-to questions right wisely. Tessema God different than the new desma. God why does God let bad things happen? These aren't new questions as Sean wrote this week. These are pretty old questions. There's been an awful lot of people that have answered these questions and answered them thoroughly and answered them well. And if you need answers to these questions those answers are actually out there. And so it's either a situation where he's saying something that's not true in other words he's saying these are my doubts but really there's something else going on my experience with students and I know he's an adult so that may may or may not be the same thing. My experience with students is the intellectual questions are almost always connected or a smokescreen for moral failures or moral struggles struggling with sexual orientation struggling with some sort of deep addiction or something like that or father wound or something along those lines. So it's either that or it's really sad because he is describing a situation in which he had these questions and he didn't feel like he could actually doubt out loud. I'm really grateful by the way for Brett. Kunkle CO author and a practical guide to culture. There's a whole chapter and whole section in that book about doubt because you've got a doubt well in proverbs makes a distinction for example between the one who seeking and doubting in the one who's a scarver and downing and I it's a very important distinction so either it sad because he grew up in a situation where he couldn't answer questions or ask questions and they didn't have the answers which is sad because there's answers you're the context he was in might not have had the answer. So it's premature to say he just didn't seek them out. Maybe but you can't read the first five chapters of trouble book without getting answers to those very questions and I think they're very good answers to and if someone doesn't think they are then I'd like to talk to them but Yeah there there. There's an attitude here to saying that we need to talk about if if you're a mentor or a youth pastor that you don't allow the question what the student here's is Christianity. Can't handle it in other words if you are mentoring and pointing someone to Christ and the impression that they get is every time they ask a tough question about the faith you dismiss it or say just have faith or whatever ultimately would the impression that they get is that Christianity is not big enough worldview to handle the bigger questions which is really sad and that sort of signed guard said like. He said that he had to. He felt that he had to put on a show for people for a long time. And just pretend that he still believed even though he had these festering doubts in his heart and his mind just sort of undermining his Christian faith. We need to be able to have. I just looked at an email friend. Sent me this long. Email that he received from someone in Germany Based on a blog post that he'd put up and this guy was talking about all the doubts that he's had and he was really doubting. Well he said this is the objection that I've encountered about the Bible about the reliability of the Old Testament accounts about You know whether we can trust with the postle said in the New Testament and I wanNA rebuild. My faith helped me rebuild my faith and tell me why the resources are that was a beautiful example of doubting well and we need to be able to cultivate and encourage that instead of had this environment where it's discouraged at least implicitly. Yeah I mean look. You can't hide kids from the questions forever. In fact you know it used to be that. I could play the devil's advocate with the youth group in bring up things they never heard before. But they've all seen Richard Dawkins videos or Bart Ehrman debates or means from the village atheist with a little nugget. Here there and Planning Doubt I. I do think I'm convinced. And it's why we started the truth. Love together event talking about truth which was a wonderful module so excited about the contributions that Sean and Abdu and and Oz Guinness umbrella made to that lineup and Natasha and I think Natasha brings this out as well. That if if you the part of disciple in kids for the twenty first century is helping them ask questions and helping them to do it. Well it's going to be part of that. We get some resources on that by the way at at breakpoint dot org well folks as part of our new format. We're GONNA play for you another clip from our truth love together virtual event this time from module three. You're about to hear from Max McLean talent. Behind a whole collection of powerful one man stage productions as well as Audio Bibles. This one is from his production. Cs Lewis the most reluctant convert one day talk. Keenan and I took a stroll on Addison's walk as we talked I said Tullus. I have with considerable resistance. Come to believe in God but not Christianity simply cannot believe something I do not understa. I'll on the life and death of someone else. Whoever he wants two thousand years ago health oss here and now told his answer when you meet agog sacrificing himself in pagan stories such as dialed Nice Jewish or boulder or even a fairytale. You like it very much. And are mysteriously moved. By provided you meet it anywhere except in the gospels. The Story of Christ is amid working on us in the same way as other means with one tremendous difference. It really happened to us. So many leaves foul to the ground. I thought it was raining. I held my breath. Toll is not told deep into knock Hugo dyson join. They convinced me that nothing else. No literature just like the boss is like a pass. When I would bring this up my colleagues would say shy. I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher but I simply cannot accept his claim to be galled. He called a great moral teacher and say the sorts of things. Jesus sack that always existed that he will come again to judge. The World Chesterton wrote now great. Moral teacher claim to be God. Not Moses. Not Mohamed Knock. They told not Buddha. Naught what if you had gone to Buddha and ask are you the son of Brahma he would have said my son. You are still in the veil of illusion if you had gone to. Socrates are used Zeus. He would have laughed at you. And if you had gone to Mohamed and us are you Alah. He would. I tear his clothes. Then cut your head off. No great moral teacher made that claim accept Jesus. He went on claiming to forgive sins that he himself is the injured party. In every transgression in anyone else. This would be silly. Suppose you told me that two of your colleagues had lost you a professorship by telling lies about your character and I reply I freely forgive them Oh would you not think that she'll lunacy and yet even those who opposed him admitted that he expressed moral truth with depth than not full of wisdom and shrewdness? He calls himself humble and meek and we believe him not noticing that humility and meekness lost things. You would ascribe to a man who makes claims worthy of MEGLOMANIAC cut. Talk Me to shame inconsistency if Jesus statements of false Christianity is of importance if true it is of infinite imports. The one thing that can all be is moderately important. I felt a resistance to this almost as strong as my resistance to theism every step from the absolute to spirit to God was a step toward the more concrete. And Na to accept the INCON- nation that God became man was a further step in the same direction. This two or something I had not want. I remember very well when but hardly how the final step take. I was being driven by my brother. Warnie to whipsnade zoo the sidecar of a motorcycle one sunny morning in the autumn of nineteen thirty. When we set out I did not believe that. Jesus Christ is the son of God when we reached the Zoo did. I had not spent the journey in all great emotion. More like a man who after long sleep has become aware is now away my conversion shed new lives on my search for jaw. The overwhelming longs that emerged from fantastic. And my brothers Toy Garden. A minute shine. Push to what I really czar. They were not the thing itself. I concluded that if Assad in my shelter which no expedients in this world satisfy the most probable explanation I was made for a number the thaw offers of those energies which God's create rapture in planted in map when he made the world's a what we now call physical and even thus spilt they off too much our president manage. What would it be to take at Fountain head that to me out delight? Which even the smallest drop pros so intoxicated. That is what knives before we to drink joy. I found out on the outside wrong. Shot the door we can Mingo with the SPLENDORS. We see all the leaves. The New Testament rustling with the that it will always be That was a selection from Max Mcclain's CS Lewis the most reluctant convert. You can hear more. In module three are free online event. Truth love together. Just COME TO CONFERENCE DOT Colson Center DOT ORG to register and get access to all of the amazing talks and discussions were hosting. We're back for our QNA session here at the tail end of our weekly podcast John. We've got a number of questions this week. That some of them we didn't you last week. Some of them are new and I think they're really interesting in. This format is is exciting to me because it allows us to get off of our familiar tracks and scripts and just sort of interact with our listeners. And and talk about what's concerning them. What are they thinking about? What are the questions they have? It's really a lot of fun isn't it? I mean look even in this During this whole pandemic shutdown orders. We've heard so much more from so many more of our folks. It's almost shut in love anything else to do. I'm not going to call my mom again. I'm going to call it but it's actually been really wonderful and it also helps us to clarify. I mean we started out this podcast talking about this awful story of the week and we had somebody kind of reach out and say you know you guys have to say something and part of it is listen you. You might have missed two weeks ago when we talked about a modern brewery. We did talk about story. They specifically mentioned that in their question. And sometimes the timing of it and even the topic itself means rather than trying to tackle it in three and a half minutes. It's better to talk about it here. You know we were able you and I were able to talk about for example this many Minnesota story this awful story for what you know twelve minutes which is way better to just kind of mourn and There are biblical responses to evil that are just lament and I. That's how I felt. I mean look the want me to explain exactly what happened and why and what that means about all of us. I'm not sure that I can. I can tell you some things. Everybody's of the Line of good and evil does not run between people groups but right down the middle of the human art and I'm a senator to and the world's broken and sometimes things are that bad we just cry out and that this was a lamentable story in my mind but it's helped also I guess back to my original point which is this sort of interaction has helped us explain kind of what the schedule is and sometimes even radio keeps us from being able to get some ring on and it's better for us to talk about it here okay. So would that. I've got a hot potato. I'm GonNa Throw Your Way and just see what you do with it. Okay so this is a question a listener Senate and I've kind of titled It. What about divorce and men because this is a really interesting? And it's controversial. This listener says the discussion about low birth rates and childlessness was so typical of so much of evangelical critique. Ouch never do you. Guys mentioned that the threat of being dragged through divorce court in a messy process where they're almost always certain to lose substantially this men person speaking about men do not want to risk marriage and having children that can easily be from them. Please don't merely attribute it to selfishness or immaturity. Sure those are factors but it's complete cultural blindness to leave out the threat of divorce and its impact so men are getting married because the threat of divorce in our society go I. It's just not true that we never mentioned because we do mention and I've actually specifically talked about in front of crowds but it's one of the and also on breakpoint and also on break point this week in other words sometimes people think that because we didn't mention it this time we never mentioned it And that's just not true Secondly if anyone has talked about the impact of divorce across the board we have. I think there since since the topic came up. It's worth mentioning if you two parts of this shining. Love you to weigh in on this to the first part is if you were to stack up the devastation. That's happened because of the breakdown of the family on one hand. These are the men's scared a divorce over here and then over here put you know in terms of scale men who are perpetual adolescence. Never grow up. Because they're addicted to gaming and didn't have fathers of their own and all that sort of stuff and you put them on a scale and said which problem right now is worse. Look we have a crisis of Masculinity Now maybe this crisis of masculinity over here means that men are boys and they're scared of divorce and all of that sort of and I. I certainly think those men exists. Don't get me wrong. But listen ninety percent of the problems that men have can be handled by taking responsibility for their own lives not blaming the system and by the way in the spirit of walk and Chew Gum at the same time. I can't believe that and know that to be true and still say right now. Yes we do have a real problem where the court system oftentimes is weighted against men. Men often struggled to stay in their kids lives for various things. It's not a great system. And also that as my a pastor says the number of between men and women seeking divorce in his experience in the last five years more women are seeking divorce than men. Well let's verify able right initiate the majority of doors for whatever reason I mean you. You can't just say that say yeah. That's right righty of reasons. I mean maybe 'cause they're addicted to porn. Maybe because women found a love somebody out and other. It's a whole big broken mass but I think a large part of the problem could be solved if we had father's homes and at some generations. It's just got to start like the man Where culture that rewards adolescence forever. And it's a bad situation but you might disagree. Well I actually agree with you. My thoughts on this are that surprisingly we'll surprisingly I agree advising Lee. No no we have disagreements on certain things but this is not one of them. I think the thing I would add john is I suspect. This listener is seeing something. This actually downstream from the real problem which is no fault. Divorce so the I think it was who was it at American public discourse who wrote a lot about this issue about why you know marriage can't be privatized and no fault. Divorce doesn't work but the basic idea. Is that okay if you allow people to just into marriage for any reason? The whole structure falls apart because the incentives are all out of whack. Traditionally marriage is designed to bind men and women together and then to create presumptive paternity. Because there's no. There's no question about maternity ever. You know who had the baby? But there's always been throughout history a question of paternity and so marriage creates the presumption that the husband is the father of of any children. Well unfortunately when you have no fault divorce were. There doesn't need to be a recognition of infidelity or failure. One spouses part. They can just go their separate ways. For any reason and unilaterally I would add The incentives are all out of whack. you no longer have that. That binding agreement doesn't function the same way and so as a result men look at marriage. Look at no fault divorce oftentimes that. I think they rightly. Say What's in it for me? You know what is the deal here because I'm not? There's no binding permanency to this institution. It's completely I it's falling apart. That's something that You know the Reagan. Conservative movement has a lot to answer for on because that was where a lot of this. No fault divorce stuff began the second thing to. Yeah to Reagan's credit. He did say it was the worst legislative he ever may recognize that after the fact recognize that. And then you mentioned the court system as a result being weighted against men. I think the third factor that I would bring into this. Is that the government. I think Thomas Soul wrote about this. The government has become a replacement husband for many many women. Many many mothers and it's allowed sort of Leniency in the divorce process. That wouldn't have been there otherwise because Husband was necessary provider. Well now Hudson husband is sort of unnecessary accessory for many people because the government is going to step in and be the replacement husband provider and that introduces a new perverse incentive to borrow a phrase. I think also from Seoul so. It's the whole mess that we're looking at is is a lot more complicated than just the system being stacked against men in the courts all like the sexual revolution has all kinds of victims and men are among the victims of the sexual revolution. But if you WANNA wait it up women and children have been far more victimized. Men In many ways have been given the get out of jail free card and yeah they've been given perverse incentives. And if you don't have character if you're not raised in virtue you don't have a dad in the home. Oftentimes or heroic single parent mom that can actually teach you those sorts of things and you embrace them right. It's tough math problem but answer. Yeah Good Answer. Incomplete from both of us but good. Hopefully that is. That's the beginning of a helpful helpful conversation help. We have talked about this for the record we have of course. Maybe I'm a little on. I'm not in on edge it all but this is again when people say you guys never talked about this but we do and we have and we don't always talk about everything all the time and that's you know radio. It'd be honest John. Sometimes I'll be like. Why haven't we talked about this? And then editor will send ten. We'll send me over Lincoln. Say No we did talk about this last week. Okay all right all right. We've got one more question here I want to get to. This is one that a lot of people have. This goes back to the Hawk Nelson lead singer who You know apostatized on instagram. This is a question that a lot of people give for leaving the Christian faith and so this this parent wants to know. Could you make a book recommendation? My son is wrestling with. How can God be good if he created everything and evil which is included among everything exists that means he created evil right? So how can I trust him? I know my son believes and I really think he's a Christian but he's almost eighteen and he's wrestling with it all for himself for the first time I appreciate any help you can offer you know. This is actually a question that was dealt with in our most recent one of our more recent. What would you say videos? Which is a new video series that the Colson Center has produced on Youtube and also at? Would you say dot org and this was one of the questions? Which is you know. How can you know God be good? If He created everything and evil exists therefore he created evil. That's assuming something that avoid self created thing not everything that exists is created thing some things that exist exist because they are parasitic or they are Elax of something that does exist for example privation. It's a privation. Yeah which is yeah big polly saliva word but yeah exactly. It's cold cold's not really a created thing. Heat is the heat is cold. Darkness is not a created thing. Light is but then the lack of light is dark. The same thing is true when it comes to you know to evil that evil itself is the privation a parasite on the good and this is something that I think has to be walked through carefully but it makes sense. You know when you do. It doesn't mean everyone embraces it right. This goes back to our conversation about you. Know a PA Internet apostasy or INSTAGRAM. Apostasy which is. Sometimes the stated reasons in the real reasons aren't always the same thing but there's also the other side of the problem of evil Which is there's all. It's often assumed that evil is only a problem for Christians or for theorist liking. God let this happen. But every religion every worldview has to explain evil not only explained that he will exist but explain that we experience evil in the way that we do and if there is no god if the universe is a complete accident then there's no such thing as evil in other words. There's no such thing as this ought not be there's only what is and so therefore the worst thing that ever happened to you including the worst things that we can see and cluding that horrible event that happened in Minnesota. This week is an accident. There was no 'cause no purpose. No meaning there's no answer to it in fact you can't even really say that there's anything wrong with it if you're nationalism and we're just animals won't guess what animals due to each other all the time terribly. That's yeah yeah that's right but even more than that there's not even categories of good and evil in the universe right. It's not just that we're animals so therefore we behave like animals but there's not even a category of good and evil that we can go to Lewis said if the universe had no meaning. We should have never figured out that. It had no meaning right in other words. Such a universe. Why do we have these sorts of thoughts? The very fact that we have these sorts of thoughts implies that there's something that's part of the universe of the world or the human heart that senses these things and Abberley meaningless universe. There shouldn't be nihilist and shouldn't drink as much there. You go there you go. Well our question questioner asked for a book recommendation. We deal with and chapter six of our book making sense of your world and we try to hit this from a number of different angles. There's also the most recent book which is evil on the cross Sorry I'm thinking of another book Yvonne whereas Got Krona Virus World by John Lennox which is really quite good as well and then there's some wonderful treatments of evil and suffering on the website S. T. R. State which is for our friends at stand to reason S. T. E. R. DOT. Org that hits the various aspects including a really good explanation of this idea. That evil isn't really a thing in the sense that it's created thing not everything that exists was created. You know that's So in other words the syllogism God created everything evils a thing therefore guy created evil. The first two premises need to be understood are inaccurate. The way that they're state on a purely logical level and. I think we need to acknowledge our debt here to CS Lewis because we're basically following the outline of his argument of Mere Christianity among other places about the objection from evil against the existence of God. Of course he came up with the the saying that if the universe meaningless we would have never figured out he came up with another saying eight hundred and turns out to be too simple because because the atheists can't explain the very idea of evil which he uses to object to God but then Louis turns around of course any gives his own sort of theocracy. That's another fifty cent word for how you explain. Evil in light of God and he he says that essentially evil is the price of Of A universe with truly free creatures who have meaningful ability to choose right and wrong and so therefore they can choose wrong. Well if you allow for Angels Ula for if you create angels who are free. You allow for devils you create Human beings are free. Then you allow for Unbeliev and that's And of course everything that goes with UNBELIEV Yvette actors billion bad actors. Yeah and so that is You know that's the beginning of of a really powerful and effective answer. I think to that question on intellectual level. Of course it's not always intellectual. Sometimes it's also a much more visceral objection it's And I don't think that intellectual answers are necessarily the best response in that case a lot of times just acknowledging the hurt that's involved and pointing to the Cross pointing to Christ the suffering. God is the best response there so that takes wisdom. You have to determine exactly what you're dealing with there in this particular instance. It may be that. This student has some particular evil or pain or grief or loss in mind. And that's something that you need to discern as a parent and we need to discern as fellow Christians and pastors and teachers etc. Yeah that's a really important distinction. Sometimes people asking intellectual question and what they're really asking is make me feel better getting this hurt away from me and this is why the ultimate answer to evil and suffering Lands at the Cross. And there's a really wonderful theological treatment of this called evil in the cross. Which does this. It's a little bit more head a little bit more of an academic book but it it it lands you there as did by the way Ravi Zacharias and a number of lectures. And so that's another place I would point where Which you can find ours dot org unwilling to all this at breakpoint. Dot Org. We'll John thanks so much for this time. This is a really fun. Conversation Relief Fund segment and I hope we can continue it. But that depends on you folks. We need you to drop us. A line at breakpoint dot org over there in the context section or link-up is with us on facebook or twitter. And you can You can ask questions there and our editor will send them over to us. And we'll we'll see if we can get him on the show here in an offer some the beginnings of some answers to them. Thanks for listening for John. Stonestreet with the Colson Center. I'm Shane Morris.

officer John Colson Center twitter America Minneapolis Shane Morris Chris Brooks George Floyd International Association of C Chew Gum Jesus Lewis facebook Baltimore Louis Farrakhan Sean President Mohamed Knock
#1517 - Nancy Panza

The Joe Rogan Experience

2:04:04 hr | 1 year ago

#1517 - Nancy Panza

"Hello friends welcome to the show. This episode, the PODCAST is brought to you by whoop whoop is a twenty, four, seven fitness tracker goes above and beyond other wearables and provides you with personalized insights. So you can make awesome decisions and build better behaviors that will help you perform at your best I wear it every day I go to sleep with. It on it tells me how much sleep I got how much recovered during my sleep, which is all information that you can use to make better decisions. It has a strain coach. The strain coach will let you know how much effort you actually put out in your training sessions and whether or not. You've recovered from the night before the day before. All that information that gets processed from wearing this thing twenty, four, seven, all gets thrown through their algorithm and they have a awesome amount of information that really helps you make better decisions. It shows you how the stress in your life, both physical stress from working out and stress from just life and lack of sleep. All those things will help you make better decisions and you can live your life better. It's made a big impact on me particularly in making me accountable for how much I go to sleep. How much I actually sleep and you know how much actually recovered from the workouts day before overtraining it's fucking terrible for you. It's almost as bad as not working out at all probably boerse really in a lot of ways and whoop lets you know where you're really at one of the cool things about whoop is that they continually add new features and invest in different ways to enhance your experience with most tech you're just stuck with what you buy until you decide to get the new version, but whoop always finds a way to improve the APP and for July they just. A new integration with Strada, which will now allow you to upload your activity data with that platform. So If you use drive at attract your runs, your bike rides or swims. You can now have your woop strain data upload directly to your strong feet in addition to calories burned and your heart rate data, and what's even more cool for the first time other activities you do outside of biking running and swimming can now get uploaded Estrada through whoop as well and for listeners this podcast whoop is offering fifteen percent off the code. Rogan at checkout. Go to whoop that's W. H., O. P. Dot Com enter the code Rogan at checkout and save fifteen percent sleep better recover faster and train smarter optimize your performance with whoop. We're also brought to you by the mother fucking cash. You probably already know the cash up is the easiest way to send money between your friends and family without having to hold onto that paper that antiquated dirty paper Tash. Well, the cash is also the best way to buy bitcoin with the cash APP. You can automatically purchased bitcoin daily weekly or even biweekly known in the industry as stacking sats sats meaning short force a Toshi who is the legendary person? WHO supposedly created? Bitcoin it's a weird story to Google. It's it's very interesting because they don't really know who it is. Anyway what Bitcoin is they know Bitcoin is a transformational digital currency that acts as a decentralized peer to peer payment network powered by its users with no central authority and many people think it's the future of currency. I am very intrigued by it I own some of it. I think it's. Very promising I don't know you know who knows but with the cash APP, it is the easiest way to buy it. coin transactions happen very quickly, and it's the most convenient and cheapest way to buy two, and of course, when you download the cash APP and enter the Referral Code Joe Rogan. All One word you will receive ten dollars and the cash apple also send ten dollars to our good friend just Rennes fight for the forgotten charity building wells for the pygmies in the Congo. So don't forget use Promo Code Joe Rogan all one word when you download the cash APP from the APP store or from the Google play store to day we're also. Brought to you by teeter and they're awesome inversion table I have been using one of these tables long before I ever had a podcast more than twenty years. What it is is a teeter is it's called the conversion therapy and inversion therapy uses gravity and your own body weight to decompress the spine and relieve pressure on your disks and surrounding nerves, and I've had a bunch of back problems over the years from mostly from Jitsu. But inverting on teeter inversion table has given me great relief. It not only helps relieve back pain, but I feel looser more flexible and a really housing workout recovery and it helps me keep doing what I love to do was. Do hard things with my body decompressing teeter for a few minutes days part of my daily routine. I do it every day. I have one at home. I have one here at the studio and It's great. It's it's not painful. Feels good. And it's just it's just a great way to maintain a healthy spine and it just it feels like you could feel it popping in stretching out when you do it it's awesome I'm addicted to over three million people put their trust in teeter and they are the best known name in inversion tables and they have been since one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, one how about that and they're given an amazing offer for Jerry listeners for a limited time. You can get the new teeter inversion table with bonus accessories plus a free pair of gravity boots. So you can choose how you want to invert at home or on the go with gravity boots that that's how I actually started out. All you need is a Chin Bar it's awesome teeter version tables, the teachers better though the better than just hanging from a bar because you could actually change the angle and have less or more more gravity assist. Teeter inversion tables have thousands of reviews on Amazon and a four point seven star rating, and with this deal, you'll get over two hundred dollars in value added features. When you go to teeter dot com slash Rogan, you'll also get free shipping sixty day money back guarantee and free returns. So there's no risk free to try it out remember you can only get the new teeter fit spine inversion table plus free gravity boots by going to dot com slash Rogan that's T. e. e. t. e. r. dot com slash Rogan all right. My guest today is a police psychologist and a professor at California State University Fullerton and. She came on podcasts to discuss insights in current issues in policing. The psychology of it was very insightful the psychology of the pressure of the job and. What what it takes to help officers and what could be done to improve a lot of these things? It was very, very inciteful I. Hope you enjoy it. please. Welcome Nancy Panza. The Joe Rogan experience. PODCAST. Hello Nancy. Hi Joe. How are you? I'm doing well, thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Thanks for letting me come and talk. My pleasure. So tell everybody what you do. So I am well my day job. I'm a professor in the Psychology Department at CAL. State Fullerton and my side Gig I am a forensic and police psychologist that is a very appropriate subject for the strange times we find ourselves in right now. Indeed. So as you are watching all this play out from the George Floyd murder to where we're at right now What, what does this been like for you? Since this is your field of study. It's a weird place to be on your kind of. For me caught in between two worlds. It seems. I mean, my job is to take care of police officers. So healthy keep them well to make sure that they can do a good job doing their jobs And so the first thing I see is who we got a mess on her hands. For me when I see a lot of the video that ended up, you know on on TV my initial reaction as well. Let's have a look. Is there something really to be upset about here and? While, obviously, in seeing the the video of George, Floyd's murder a whole lot to be upset about here, and so you know heartache comes from that and then my you know my next responses to kick in is okay we've we've got problems on both sides. We need to not only figure out why such things are happening and prevent them because that's not good. Nobody wants bad policing even the police don't want bad policing. On the other hand, how do we also take care of our officers who are out there who now have to go out and continue doing their jobs in a really? Difficult, overwhelming environment. Yet? Such a strange time because on one hand, you got all these people that are calling out for defunding the police and. Know this is here's a point of view that Ben Shapiro had when he talked about the protests he said. He said saying they're mostly peaceful protests like saying OJ Simpson had a mostly peaceful day. When he killed Nicole Simpson because he was only violent for a couple minutes the rest of the day who's it was mostly peaceful and he's like that's a good way to describe the protests I. Think you could also say the same thing about the police department the Police Department and police officers are mostly good people doing a good job. But the problem is when one out of all these millions of interactions when one goes bad or there's a bad officer people see that they highlight that and then they say this is the cops. These are the COPS I don't think that's true. I've met a lot of great police officers I know a lot. And it's an insanely difficult job I. Don't think they get paid enough. I don't think they get respected enough. I don't think get trained well enough. I had Jaakko willing gone here. WHO's a former navy seal commander and? His perspective is very clear. He's like they do not train enough because if I was in control, they'd be trained twenty percent of their time twenty percent of their week we'd be spent in training deescalation drills, safety drills, how to handle things when you're partners is losing his cool. All all sorts of drills that they should be doing that they do in the navy seals that they should be doing in the police department as well. I listened to your your podcast with Jaakko on it and I was I was blown away actually listened to it twice I listened to it the first time it was like yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I. Loved everything that he had to say he's a real leader so good he so good and his idea about training was I mean I in full agreement and for the twenty percent training thing would be would be super hard especially now where we are Because money's going away not coming is that would mean twenty percent of the force would be off training and we'd need that many more officers and that many people on duty you know to fill in the active. So you know that would be a dream and I think he's right all those skills that you need. If you're not actively, you know if you're not actively training and keeping them up to par they're going to, they're going to go away decay. But on top of what he said the piece where I was like. Let me come in and talk with you too is is that you know he thinks like the warrior that is you know Navy Seals, super tough guy talking about firearms and he's right. The firearms training is probably not enough but what's even more? So especially in today's world and society is that when you look at the the makeup of a police academy training, you know first of all, it's it's so. Short and they do they get field training after that for a long period of time and so that that's good at balances it out. But the content of the academy you know by far most of that time in training is spent learning laws learning. They're Kinda textbook of of what it is to be a cop and how to function, and then the other parts there's the physical training and the Firearms Training. But if you look at what happens, once a police officer gets out there on the job and what they're doing. A huge percentage of it is in communicating. And there is almost none. Almost none. You the example I think of it comes to mind most when I prior to being at cal state. Fullerton. I was A. Faculty member John, Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York and so in the city we worked We did some trainings with the NYPD. We had a contract to do de escalation training. So when recruits are coming through the academy, they would come over to John Jay and we would have police trainers and and US psychologists would come in and we have these wonderful actors who are trained to portray individuals with mental illness and we did this interactive de Escalation Training teach them how to talk to somebody how to what do you say that's going to help bring someone down as opposed us and it was this you know okay ready here goes this training scenario. We pull these rookies up who are scared to death give them like a block gun say okay. Go like woodblock down a real weapon. Go to it and and engage this individual and are actors are were brilliant and portray these individuals with mental illness wonderfully, and you know inevitably they'd come in hot and things you know screaming erupts in the rookies, go for their gun and we're like, okay. Okay. Hold up stop. Let's talk about what just happened from the psychology side. We kind of explain here's what's going on. Here's why didn't work with this type of individual the police tack would come in on the tactic side and we'd say, okay, rewind do over and then we would run them through the scenario and we would keep stopping and starting in this interactive hands on training. By the end of the day, they were like I learned more today than I learned in the last two months. But we got them for one day six hours. And then that's it. You know. So that whole constant training and giving the skills, not just the firearms and the tactics and you know how to use force properly. But also the communication and dealing with these stressful situations and distrust individuals because what they do nonstop day in and day out. You know I I know what you're saying when you were talking about how difficult it would be. To actually have them trained twenty percent of the time but I don't think it's difficult enough that we should ignore it. I think I think if obviously I've never going to be in control. But if I was in control, I would say that's how it's gotta be. We have to hire more people need I think they need way more people way better training. And I think they're also has to be evaluations in terms of how are they dealing with stress Because, it's not just how to de-escalate how to deal with the situation with a with a possible. But also how you dealing with the fact that every time you go to work, you might get shot. You might not ever come home to your family. How many times do you see suicide? How many times you see murders how many times you see car accidents, and all that stuff weighs on a person absolutely and all those police officers that see that stuff every day depending entirely upon that's one of the things Jaakko talked about their psychological makeup. He talked about it with soldiers at some soldiers concede some crazy shit and be like came to go and then other soldiers like I'm fucked up I don't know what to do here. I have anxiety I can't sleep. I'm a nervous wreck. Same thing is true for for cops. Some folks are they can go through. You know have the worst call that you could imagine death. Gore you know loss of a child's life. I mean these things are are horrific and they see it and you know they they react an awful. But recover and and and there. Okay the next day and then you know on the opposite hand, you've got somebody who has maybe a less intense or less horrific call and it just puts them over the edge and you know from the psychology side you know we've studied this we've looked at this what how can we tell our way? We can predict you know what type of event, what type of person who who's likely to to to fall apart to end up. With post traumatic stress disorder account can we tell who's likely to develop a clinical syndrome later and and the shorter answer is we can't there are some things that that we know and obviously you know some of them are really logical. If you're in a higher state of stress if you've already got vulnerabilities going in your, you know going through a divorce at home and unhappy on the job and drink too much outside and you've got all these other things that are already. During underneath and then you also put in front of that you know I it's not surprising that that maybe that would push somebody over the edge into a really troubling place but other times. You know it's really hard thing to predict, and so instead we need to be there and be on it and they're I mean there's so many things that can add in about how we do that in in ways that we're really falling short, which is Kinda my my passion and where I am these days in trying to do a much better job of being on, you know what we would call officer wellness because we've historically done a really shitty job. Is there a standard procedure? Would when someone comes back from Sega witnessing a murder? Is there a standard way that they interact with them across all police departments or? Is it depending upon the department and what set up the sheriff or the police chief has put in place very much depending on the department and what they put in place. So when it comes to like the mental health and psychology, the the things that we do with departments are it's it's very standard these days like I I think the number show about eighty, nine, hundred, Ninety, eight, percent departments do a pre employment psychological evaluation before they're hired that's what I spend. The majority of my time doing is screening people who are starting the job. So that part is very normal to do tell you all about that process. Beyond that what happens from there on out is Fairy much up in the air depends on the department. Some departments require a what we would call A. Critical incident debriefing So the agencies that I work with will if if somebody is involved or there's a major incident, every officer who is on scene, there will come in and do a debriefing with me or with another psychologist to check in afterwards, and a lot of that is just where are they are they in this in this moment? Are they okay to go home? Are they safe? Education. A judgment call it is it's a judgment call In the ones that I've done, I would say most of the time it feels pretty clear-cut. Most of the time folks are either they're doing all right a little shaken up, which is normal I mean anybody who experiences something life threatening is going to be off off at that point. So a lot of what we do in those in those debriefings education, I have these little handouts that I give to all the officers that go through and say, this is what you are likely feeling right now this is what you're likely to be on the next couple of days anything Kinda goes you know we say in those first few days whatever you're feeling is is is probably okay. But then over the course of the first week, we expect people to settle in start recovering, and if you're not, then we WANNA start paying attention to the ways. Are you still not sleeping? Are you having nightmares? You having fought? You know what's going on and you know again varies by department some of them will then also offer up to four sessions to come back and continue meeting to to see them through that kind of early adjustment phase And then if they're still struggling at the point at the end than we can refer them to longer term for treatment and if everything looks fine and we say, okay, you know resume duty or clear to go back. So that that initial meeting afterwards is you is mandatory at least for the departments that choose to do it. That's a mandatory couple of sessions afterwards are not they're there if needed, and then from there, we kind of set the path like all good clear or let's carry on and keep you know keep working with you until you can recover. Do you support this idea that it should be controlled locally by each individual police department or do you think there should be nationwide mandate like some sort of a a standard operational procedure where they they treat everyone the same way train everyone the same way deal with every single murder suicide child death, and they have like a protocol that they follow. So it's just standard across the country based on science. I I do I think many of these things these fundamental pieces should be mandatory I. Think preemployment psychological evaluation is an absolute must and again, most agencies do that piece. I think the critical incident debriefings are an absolute must and should always occur and they should be mandatory because it takes away the stigma. Cop wants to come see the shrink they see you coming in there like No keep the shrink away. They're probably trying to deal with their own way Yup and then somebody that they don't even know who comes in and starts pro being asking questions and they'll see some guy in a suit maybe he's never even seen a dead body. You'll okay shut the fuck up man I. Know what I'm doing. Let me just go back out there and go to work and the other things that feed into that. Are I mean? Obviously, we know law enforcement just like military. The culture is very I'm in control I got this right don't need your help I am tough I. Am you know and supported by each other? We are each other. And so that that culture doesn't make it inviting to come and talk to you know a shrink or an outside person you know and and the other part is that officers are really fearful of losing their jobs you know having their livelihood taken away. That's a huge deal and depending on the psychologist if they're seeing somebody who is not familiar with law enforcement culture or who is you know real quick to. Judge to jump on the no no, we can't have this personnel there with a badge and a gun. You know there's a really delicate line there. You obviously don't want somebody who's unstable to be out there. We want to take care of them and get them healed before. But at the same time, this is someone's livelihood. This is their this is their being. This is who they are and to take that away. Haphazardly or carelessly or needlessly is really scary, and so they they really do need to have that front. So that's why the mandatory debriefing is. So important because if it's we're GONNA, pick you and you and you the rest guys are fine and they've been singled out and sunlight it's a subjective judgment, right? So that's where it gets weird I mean and I can make a comparison to refereeing in fights. Some referee stop fights or other referees would let the fights go on like it's really makes people so angry and stop the fight quickly. If someone comes in and says, this guy's not ready he can't go back on the force in Gaza. What are you talking about I'm fine. Maybe he is fine and maybe the guy just has a weird sense of people until like when you have judgment calls like that, like what criteria are they using? Are they using just their own personal opinion? Do they have to fit a set of guidelines like what when they say this guy's not fit to go back on the street seen too much his to shaken up by this murder scene. How did they make that call? So it kind of depends on what scenario you're making that decision. So there, there's two different levels that are most likely. So the the debriefing is usually. Unless the person is completely shaken. Let's let's let's run. Let's do a scenario. Let's say. Guy Pulled some guy over. The Guy Reaches for a gun shoots at the officer. The officer shoots the person kills them. You know big investigation news, the whole deal the guys on television they show the body cam footage. And then this guy has to do an evaluation and then go back to work again, how would one decide whether or not that guy's Ok to go back to work. Probably, GonNa look at multiple factors mental state basic mental status are starting in how you do that. So questions in the debriefing were unlikely to pull into our bag of tests which you know in the other scenarios big psyche vows. We're going to dig into our tests that's what we do a psychologist. Or anything. Like M. P. I let me through other letters like the personality tests and tests that show different levels of of pathology or clinical issues and problems. Anxiety depression you know bodily dysfunction. Physical examination check their heart rate. As a psychologist I would not. So what I'm looking at is their mental state and just basically their overall functioning. So are they are they able to go about their daily activities and if this is right after the scene, I won't I won't know this. Yet if it's right after the scene, I will be going and sitting down talking with them If they want to talk about what happened in kind of run through the scenario, we have them do that. That can be very telling if they're comfortable sharing that that detail are they able to describe it? Are they able to get through it without breaking down? Are they able to talk you know sort of? Clearly, even emotionally as expected and fine. In fact, somebody who has zero emotion after that, it'd be like what what's happening what are you feeling? But in that Immediate part after it's really just looking to see what's going on what's happening? Are they able to function? Are they able to safely go home? Are they having any thoughts about hurting themselves? Are they? You know are are they feeling like they are kind of losing their mind anything that just is is completely out in left field. What we often do is We're going to go on the scene only if the agency wants someone to check in right there I more often than not see them a day later usually it's a or rule here's within the first forty, eight hours So I'll see them within the first couple of days afterwards, and they'll come in and at that point, they've been able to get at least one night asleep i. Can See if they're sleeping if they're eating if they've spoken to anyone, are they having any major really strong emotional reactions and so we're kind of looking to see what are you feeling what are you thinking, what's happening and in his it kind of within the realm of what we would expect and do you need any additional supports right now while you're in this sort of immediate short-term. After aftermath. The only times that really I'm likely to say you're not ready to go back are the ones that stand out are when number one officer hemmer herself says, I cannot do this right now i. Have seen the IT's rare. It's rare. I mean. Maybe four times in how many years Well total years. I've been doing this for about fifteen but more recently out here in the last few is kind of what I'm thinking of since I've been doing more than you know out of out of a few hundred. So it's not and so what the protocol, how how is that handled? If there's an officer that can't go back, they just can't handle this right now maybe the a horrific child murder or something like what what do they do to get back on track and would what? Assistance Does the force offer them? So the odds are that even without in in that scenario, if they've been involved in a shooting and especially being the shooter, they're likely to be on an admin leave anyway while everything's being reviewed because the agency side, you know the investigations and all the procedures and checks are going on. So they're probably not going back out to the street right away anyway while all of that stuff gets cleared So so that's a good thing. They get a few days to. You know get their wits about them while they're you know kind of calming down recovering from that. So you know odds are they're not right jumping right back out anyway. but what happens in in that time? You know if we say, okay, somebody's just not ready. We usually say let's check back in in a week or two weeks depending on you know we are usually we'll discuss it with them and say you know what? Let's. Let's meet again in a week, take the time and then I'll check it out check back in with the shoulder just on their own we need more time here. When you say time just malone let them figure it out themselves. Well, let them go if they want to come in and continue if it's an urgent matter the person's feeling like they might hurt themselves. We're going to continue to see support and do whatever we need to do to take care of that person giant issue to. Suicide Amongst police officers is a huge huge although it's much more likely to happen from somebody who has not recently been. In these, the sites that happen are the ones that are out there. They're still functioning on the job. We have no idea what's going on because nobody is checking in on that person's mental health. Okay. So it's not after seeing some horrific incident or being a part of shooting. It's just the overall stress of the job right. that. Is One of the biggest problems out there feel like we do an okay job having these debriefings right afterwards because we can monitor we check back in periodically and we keep touching touching base until we're feeling comfortable that the person's good. We also in those debriefings, get to educate them and say, Hey, here you know I give them those fires and say, look here's what we know. Here's some good things to do here. Some bad things to do here's what it might feel like if any of these things are off, here's my information, call me and come back in a real problem with cops just not wanting to help because. because. The fear the fear also. Tough guys. And Girls. They I've got this. I. Mean the whole job is about being in control every scene you roll up on you are in control that command presence is necessary. To, be an officer and so to not be in control, it just feels terrible. I mean, for anybody for any human, it's hard to make the call to therapist and say I need a little help. Anybody who's made who's thought you know what I'm not doing so over and I really feel like I could use picking up the phone calling to seek help is a big deal. So for police officer yeah, there's a stigma. There's do I. Really need this justice hard to pick up and you don't want to be the person wants help all the time like, Hey, right. Don't yourself can. This person really helped me who's going to be how do I find that they're. The most frequent question I get from my friends and family and people I'm thinking I might need to see someone like how do I go about doing that Get the question all the time so yeah, for cops it's even bigger a control thing. And also like I said before their job is on the line and course. So for these cops that are in that situation. So when they say look I need to take some time off you basically just leave them alone say if you want these resources here they are. Do they mean is. Again, it's going to vary by development. Crazy that it does vary by department drives me nuts. and has this discussion been had like nationwide? Oh there's. There's so many good things and pieces of advice and recommendation out there. One of the things that's kind of painful right now is you know every morning I, get a news recap from the International Association of Chiefs of Police they send this email out to all the all the members of their and they have psychological services group, and so you get these updates and I I usually just kinda pass over but lately with all the police reform, just headlines from around the country and the piecemeal. Randomness of of this city's doing this and this city's doing this, and this city's doing this and this, and it's all over the place know same that's driving me nuts because I'm like there's already been groups that have studied and reported and told us what we need to do to help the the world of policing rise up and do better. We've been information's out there from from wonderful brilliant people who've come together and laid it out for us. It's there. But yet we we don't have that national standard. Each state has certain. You know most states have a group like. In California it's the California post You know it's the police officer standards and training. So they said all the rules for training require minimal training requirements for all the departments in. California. So all the agencies police agencies here in this state, are you know need to comply with all of the post recommendations but they're all you know it's a minimum standard and our post California posted kind of heads and tails head of most of the country. Some some states don't actually have that organization most do have something similar to what we have. So they do set some standards. But. There's so many things that are not included in that. And so it is a bit. You know random it's hard I. think to make a one-size-fits-all everybody must do this because if you think about it I think there's about eighteen thousand different police agencies in the US. And I, think I read about fifty percent of those have ten or fewer fulltime officers. So you know when you've got podunk tiny little town in the middle love you know. The Midwest in a very rural county that that's you know that's a whole lot different than lapd. So it's it's hard to have everybody on the same standard in the same expectations when we've got a lot of different make ups for a lot of different departments. That said, there are some fundamentals that I think. Every department should be held to and one of those is the debriefings after an incident and the one that that almost no one is doing. That's been talked about for awhile as regular mental wellness checks. You know at this point, you get a psyche vowel when you're hired or before you're hired. And if you're in a critical incident, you may or may not get one more more are starting to do that. And then the only other time you're going to be required to see the psychologist is if you have messed up and you're in trouble and you're referred for fitness for duty evaluation, and at that point, your job is on the line someone is saying that they think you're not fit for duty and not as a scary evaluation to have to be a part of because. Then you're going in and and yeah, if the psychologist judges and decides that you are not able to go back out well, then you're then you're off duty until you can fix whatever that problem may be. Right. Well, also just for the Public Health and Welfare it's important to do that show I. Mean there clearly are a lot of police officers that are unfit for duty. How How do we stop what happened in Minneapolis? How do we stop that from happening or at least mitigated? So I mean again I I see everything through my lens as a psychologist as a police psychologist. So I'm sure there are things beyond my realm that that also answer this question but for me the things that I think we could be doing different would really make a difference are. The. Annual mental wellness checks if it from my perspective when I look at people like you know Derek Chauvinistic the officer that that murdered George Floyd and we see what happened there. He I would say I would be willing to guess and I I don't know him I've never met him I don't know much about his career other than what I've read in the news and whatnot. Police officers that get to that place become that. They're not that when they're hired to get hired as a cop, you have to go through what often takes a year long application process where they are digging poking into every aspect of your background. Let's be clear though that's in some places and other places. It's pretty easy. Against smaller departments that don't have the resources probably probably. So. Say Pretty? Easy. In comparison in comparison yet, but the mass majority of departments have a pretty you know have a similar process in. Then you're going to go through the application you have to pass a written test. There's going to be a background investigation, which really I think is hugely powerful key part it that it should be a well done background investigation They're talking to people who you know people from your past, your landlord, your ex wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend resources forever soon, candidate they do now some agencies take far. More care than others the the wide variety of people that I see that have passed their backgrounds, some agencies I worked for send me the most amazingly clean candidates and others that are trying to hire a lot less squeaky clean but they've they've all gone through it is you know gone through this background they also a polygraph, they do social media checks, they you know they make you list all your tattoos and you know so they're they're looking for, and if there is somebody who is just flagrantly racist has. been out there toting white supremacy like they're gonNA they're gonna see that somewhere in that digging around. So the the the blatant racist folks are likely weeded out during a good background process. Let's say maybe they're not as Lee because we all know that people. Know better than to admit to such things most of the time these days and it could be more subtle. So at that point what comes next, you've got oral interviews with police administrators a polygraph you know coming along in there and once they pass all of that, that's when they come to the last they get their conditional offer of employment. So they're basically like as long as you get through these last two steps, you're you're good to go for the academy in the last two steps are the medical evaluation and the Psyche Val. So by the time we get them, they have been heavily vetted. Poked around you know in in in in looked through in their past and we get a, we get a pretty clean group of people. But then we get to do more digging and we get to ask questions at this point that they're not able to ask before. So about mental health background and psychological treatment and history. And so you know by and then if they get through these evaluations than they go on to the academy. So for us that vetting process that psyche val is a really important place then I've had a lot of conversations with other psychologists in the past few months like. What are we missing? Had A daughter workshop a couple months ago other police psychologist on you know some of the things we do in these pre employment and had someone say. How do we screen out the cops? Who? Kill. And I said. We can't. And that was not a good answer that we can't. We can't because we have to. What we're doing here is predicting the future right where we're saying, how do we know who is going to be that person who does that later? Predicting. The future is incredibly hard. Figuring out who maybe? You know subtly racists or bias is also incredibly hard so. That said we do a whole lot of things. We've got our psychological tests that we give. We ask a lot of crafty questions and we dig as deep as we can to try to again weed out anyone who we think could potentially become. That person down the road could be a cop who kills or who you know his racist and bias in his treating people improperly. So you know that's one big thing that we want to be very cautious and make sure we're doing a good job of screening up front but I would say um and so much more to say about the tests and the screening but gets really nerdy and detailed. I would say that the officers who end up having the most problems are the ones who once they get on our in a department where that is the culture. That is that that that those types of behaviors are acceptable. So young officer, they learn you ever seen the documentary, the seven five, I have not. It's a great documentary about Michael. Dowd. Has Been a guest on the podcast who was a? He was a terrible cobb and talks openly about how he was corrupted and how his first day on the force he witnessed corruption and was told to shut its mouth. And further went on to become a drug dealer and robbing drug dealers, and just it's a crazy documentary. You would enjoy it particularly from a psychological perspective because he's talking about after having served time. Just showing the images from the time and telling the stories it's. The culture of each individual department is different and some are great. There's a great video of Flint Michigan where. These police officers after the George Floyd death. They show up for these protests and tell these people protesting we're GonNa March with you like where a part of this community to like we were your friends. We are police officers, but we are not the person who did that thing if we wouldn't do that thing and we wanNA show you that we support you and that we're here to help that's that's really want and it's beautiful. It's so cool to see them all march together and they're hugging. That's what we want. And I think that one of the biggest things when we you know how do we prevent these these issues as? We need to look at the individual. Level but. I think that is very limited because I think the racist angry cop who kills has developed way over time and I think one of the pieces, the culture and the department is this something that's acceptable. Is there corruption in that department and so certainly better oversight and tracking is a really important thing You know that should happen but the other piece in the one that that I focused more on from my hand is. The wellness is the somebody who is burning out is somebody who has gone into a dangerous place psychologically that they started out and they were fine when we screen them up front but you know over five or ten or fifteen years they've seen so much and you know there's some one there things happen in your brain that changed the way you think and see and perceive the world when you do this type of work. And when you get to a place where those those processes have have really taken their toll and somebody has gone down this kind of dark path. It's hard to come out of that and and their way they react to the world and the individuals that they see on a daily basis is going to be very different than what they look like when they were hired. So for a not regularly checking in and seeing who might be at risk for going to that dark place that bitter and angry place you know we're not able to catch them before something happens, and that's where you know for me. My my big platform is regular wellness checks. I'm not the first one to come up with this idea it's been suggested by task forces and study groups and people who. Know a whole lot more than I do for for a while now. But in reading, there is a wonderful the report to Congress that was put out by the COPS, which is community oriented policing services say sent this sixty page report to Congress march of two thousand, nineteen and described in detail you know all the things that we should be doing to pay attention to officer wellness one of which was we seem to think that some regular checkups are probably helped but the problem is no one's doing and we have literally zero research on you know what what are they helpful? Can they prevent this and? I believe they are. So my you know my next big thing is to go and explore and do that research so that we can show. Hey, this does help we can. We can if we're touching base and we're getting people in. Then, we can catch the problems as they develop, and before they become a major problem where someone's interacting with the community and they go awry and do something awful. Let's take care of them along the way and catch the problems before they. before they become behaviors that are problematic, there seems to be a lot of discussion now about police brutality but there's not a lot of discussion about the psychological troubles and the really the difficult path of being police officer and appreciation for the people that have to do that job. all this defunding the police talk scares the shit out of me because I, see what's going on right now in New York City, and it's a Goddamn shooting gallery. It's crazy and the reason why is because the police officers have no trust in the mayor they WANNA quit they don't feel like they get any respect they feel like they they have all been lumped in with this one murderous cop from Minneapolis now they're. All bad cops, and there's a licensed to call them bad cops scream terrible things out them when they've done nothing wrong they're just there to protect and serve a lot of them are good people the the vast majority. So when you're seeing this giant uptick and murders in New York City in China uptick and shootings, and then you still have that dip shit of a mayor calling for the defunding of the police like my God like. I know so much of the things they say are just political because they just want to appeal to their base, and there's so many people out there. That have this very narrow minded perspective. They have blinders on and it's like racial justice social, justice defunding the police is like this mantra. Stay with no depth to it, they don't understand the consequences of saying such a thing or implementing such thing now we're seeing. A call for police action because there's a lot of people, these a lot of community groups, a lot of people that are community leaders that are in these communities that are just experienced unprecedented gun violence and crime, and now they're think we gotta do something about this. So they're trying to reinstate some of these policies that they had pulled before I'm hoping that through this, what we had talked about with training and. Funding. The police more instead of defunding the police train them better funding more. We you obviously need police this idea that you don't need police criminal just going to go away. Is Crime GonNa go away and we have a problem. We have an enormous number of people and the number people. There is a certain percentage of them that will victimize other people they will steal they will kill in if they don't get caught, then you develop a culture of crime. Then you develop a thing where you you you, you basically have what's going on in Mexico where the cartels have. More power then the police, which is a terrible situation if you have that an individual locations like New York City, if all of a sudden criminal gangs, these these criminal gangs develop more gun power more more support of the community. They have more people than police officers. You've got a problem and the actual peaceful citizens are the ones that are going to be in trouble and all those people that are. Out there protesting that think they're immune from it because they're the one saying defunding police hey man they'll fuck and rob you. They'll shoot you to like. You don't understand humans and you don't understand violence and so this utopian world that they're trying to push defend the police. We're just GONNA we're going to refund. We're GONNA put that money into the community and everything's GonNa be fine and it's not Going to be fine. You need to fund the police more. You need to train the police better. We need more oversight and we need to recognize. This is a time where everybody's gotta come together on this and we gotta figure out what's wrong fix? What's wrong recognized? There's some problems, but you can't blame all cops and you can't say on the police because that's nonsense that this is a a silly. Like version of life that doesn't it's not real. You need good cops better cops are you saying we need to get rid of bad cops? Yes. Definitely. I think everybody agrees with that. How do do that? That's where the question starts and. Training the more like this idea that you can't spend twenty percent of the time training as well. If you did spend twenty percent of the time training them and there was a lot less crime because of it and the interactions with people were much better wouldn't that just be overall is that an impossible task I mean how much money goes into the police department you tell me you can't add twenty percent to that and train the more I. Bet you can bet you could find it. Financially beneficial. I would see overall you could reduce crime that way and reduce the animosity between citizens and the police wouldn't that be better for everybody. It would and I agree I agree with you I mean on the defunding thing you know I think and you've had other people say this to and you know this I'm not saying anything amazing here that. It means things to different people and I. Wholeheartedly Agree The folks who think defunding means like just get rid of them. Like that that that's silly. What's Your Plan B? What do? They really mean I don't I don't. What happens next and I haven't heard anybody articulate. So then what and there's no. No one has a then what those are the the e mails get the headlines I saw one yesterday or the day before that in Minneapolis now, there are groups of citizens banding together armed citizens. Banding together to patrol the streets for crime and I thought Oh. My God. Oh boy, that's just shit. Show eight and a half and. Community members, shooting people, and then there it's charged with murder. It's. Just. A horrific thought and can't quite imagine like that. So I completely understand the anger and the frustration because you're we don't about cops. There's nothing worse than the other person you call to protect you and to help you in you're in an emergency doing the wrong thing and doing. that. We don't need or want that and I wholeheartedly agree that more training and and the right type of training and and spending that time because I also think that the training gives you access to see where people are and if they're on a good path or if they are that problematic person. Carol. Test them during this forced still if we're seeing them on a regular basis and pulling them out and giving them the tools that they need, and then absolutely I think that is an exceptional thing to do that was part of what your your podcast with Jaakko June blew me away with. You know the way he talked about you know in the other thing that that sort of has gotten lost is this whole idea of you know the interaction with the community with community oriented policing you know. In it's a, it's exactly what Joe was talking about when he was talking about being overseas and I think he was talking about Patriots in the order of you know you don't just roll up in your tank and cruised through you stop and you talk and you humanize yourself and you engage with these you know with the folks here and you let them know that you're you're here to protect and to serve and you connect with them, and then helps both the community citizens and the soldiers. That's the same thing that we're wanting here at home in this country that that your police are supposed to be your supporters in your resources and the people that you trust and are connected to and not as what community oriented policing is it's not a new idea. It's been around for decades, but we somehow still don't have that going on now. It's still well, what seems. Like everything in society is now it's US versus them. You know it's the police versus the community. Instead of we are community together and we need to work with each other to do you know to to keep this place safe and understand what the biggest problems are, where the citizens concerns, and it isn't easy to do. It's not an easy thing to do but it works. You. Are, go to a tactical range where a teach you how to shoot handguns and. The Guy Teaches me was telling me. You would be stunned at how inept some of these cops are the come here. He goes they literally barely shoot a gun. And I wouldn't believe him except I've seen so many cops that are so fat and so sloppy and I'm like, how are you going to defend yourself like the idea of you serving and protecting like due to someone throws you in the ground you're not even getting up like how does that happen? How do they have standards for like being able to shoot a gun knowing? How to handle it properly, being accurate, being consistent with your training and also physical fitness like that's the job of a police officer is dealing occasionally with violent criminals when you have no capacity to defend yourself, how are you able to help people? You're only help like if you're in a situation where something turns physical if you have no ability to defend yourself physically other than firearms. A situation that could be de escalated turns into a violent encounter because you have to shoot someone. So a couple of things that come to mind. So you know imagine that. Police officers do get annual firearms training. They do get have to pass in most places an annual physical fitness test and you're saying you know are. Also, you're seeing people who are out of shape and overweight and physically not in great condition than you're seeing people who can't shoot well. But yet those are regular there regular firearms, trainings, annual firearms, trainings, and. Physical fitness tests. Top of minimum in initial training and again I there's so much variety that I'm sure not everywhere most departments have annual service that you inservice training you gotta go through and do and. So, if we're still seeing that people who are out of shape yet, they've passed the physical fitness test and who can't shoot but. Imagine their mental health. Imagine what that looks like and there is no annual mental health training mental health check in and I promise you that the job. Erodes that over time so? If if the things we can actually see. That the shooting is an unpopular and the physical health is. The one we can't see what's going on the inside imagine how messy that might be, and there's nothing we have no oversight and no regular check ins there. So that's that's one thing that stands out but but imagine that. You know the other thing is firearms training obviously, just super important if you're going to carry a weapon to be able to use it and to use it well. But it's also not something that you're going to encounter on a regular basis on the job. There are officers who go through their entire career without ever pulling weapon. Well, that's great. Right that is great and when you do it, it should be few and far between because there are other other ways to manage situations. There are that's lethal force, and then we've got a variety of of you know nonlethal force whether it's something hand you know physical hand on, you know hand to hand kind of thing or whether it's a taser or baton or whatever. Else they maybe using her having on their, you know their tool belt. So there are there are other options there so. Know that the continuum is is set from verbal deescalation communication when that doesn't work and it still endangered than you you know there are certain criteria and obviously officers are taught there continuum of force and what needs to be necessary to move up that level. With deadly force or lethal force being the highest so. It's so rare. That to me. There's so much else that comes before that. If we're doing a good job. That almost is never an issue because these other tools work better. Women what almost never an issue Having to shoot someone having to get to where you're breaking strap and you're your weapon and you're firing it someone that should. I mean, that is a that is the last last last it doesn't happen on a daily basis isn't entirely dependent upon where you're at and wh what kind of situation all across the country. There are situations where cops have to pull their guns in have to use them there are, but they're not as frequent happening every day. Probably somewhere every day not every day in every officer's lawn. But if it's you if it's your officer, you gotta be ready. Yes. Like this idea that that's not important it's it should be of critical importance not that it's not important but that there are so many other things that need to also be in place because if these other skills are in place. If you are a master, you know they like to call verbal judo if you can. If you can talk someone down if you are a master at de-escalation. You're never going need these other tools maybe not never, but you are very rarely going to need any the less than lethal force, the lease lethal force because you're managing situations. If you suck at these, you need these a lot are suicide right so so for me because I deal with communication and deal with you know de escalation and how to talk someone down how to talk to an individual with a mental illness how to talk to somebody who's a victim has been? Traumatized how to talk to somebody who's maybe on drugs and not able to you know how do we manage those situations with verbal with interactions with communication so that we don't have to go up the chain of command of you know of levels of force that seems to me to be an incredible amount of training that must be necessary and it also has to be constant consistent absolutely, and that's why when when you in Jaakko we're talking about the training and more like. Home, we get in San Yeah how much training do they have to do in terms of hand to hand combat? I don't I'm not sure how much and again I'm sure it depends on what academy they go through some academies are four months summer six, some less longer you know in and the makeup depends on who's running that academy as to like the the breakdown of you know how much is in the classroom? How much is physical? How much tactical I'm not sure what? The numbers would be on that Andrew. Yang. A presidential candidate He had a former presidential. He had an awesome idea said every person who is in the police force should be a purple belt Jitsu or higher and I think that is a really good idea because at at that level, you have a real understanding of how to defend yourself and how to control bodies. Saw, video I'm seen quite a few of them. One of the more pathetic videos I've ever seen two people trying to hold one guy down completely aptly, the guy gets up runs gets into his car and shoots both of them and then takes off and I'm like, Jesus Christ went into his car got a gun like they had no control over this guy to people and the Mike that should never take place. And this guy wasn't some freak of nature either it wasn't like they're trying to hold down Herschel Walker for some super-athlete. No a regular guy just sucked. It's terrible to watch. Will so you know part of the challenge with with officers also that he we think of it as this. Don't go go go doodoo adrenaline Junkie job, which there are spurts of that but you know a lot of that. Hour shift is sitting in waiting patrolling depending on what you're what you're where you are and where you're patrolling it's it's tedious, tedious tedious, and then it's intense or difficult or stressful, and so you know it then it'd be trained to recognize that that's what's GonNa Happen to and to be psychologically prepared that this is this is part of what it is. Yeah. I remember the first time I went on a ride along with someone and thinking. Feel so much different than what I thought. It would feel like first of all everybody stares at you in is looking at you and you're like just standing out no matter where you go because you're in your. Car Cup car. Oh I've been I've been many times in my first one was decades ago in north. Carolina had a police officer for a roommate who took me out for the very first time and on my first right along was at nighttime just tedious boring couple of. Low level arrests but just the. The people respond and react really just felt so much different than I thought, and then I went out again a while later and saw a dead body and had all sorts of weird experiences that one just the the the difference from this shift to clean adrenaline excitement or something scarier overwhelming happens, and then you know just tedious and monotonous shift and it that there's so much unpredictability and uncontrollability that that you do sort of need to be alert on and ready Part of that is what does a number on an officers mental health I would imagine also the current state of the way people are treating police. Officers has got to be devastating sell much changed in just a few short months we went from just most people have respect for the police to it's. I it seems like it's in fashion to to talk shit about cops and it it comes and goes right you see about as bad as it's ever gotten bad now and when I when I talked to folks and which is fucked up, it's not isolate. It's not. Thank. Minneapolis it has. It has really spread. Whoever thought that that one incident would would ignite this powder keg the way did because every other incident that we've had in the past like the Rodney King incident that just started riots in Los Angeles it didn't do anything and New York but this one is across the world. There's there's there's. Riots in London. going. Crazy in France because of this. And I don't I mean. WHO KNOWS I have no idea what it was about this other than it was just so outrageously awful. There's that it's so. Awful what happened and to watch that? You know it was the mini Oh, we all got a firsthand. Look. Hideous Scary. So I think the video I mean you literally Solomon Loses life and that was traumatizing for anybody who saw it I'm sure the pandemic and everyone being shut down in restless and all the effects of that mentally and psychologically on all of us just sort of the unrest of that combined with the horror of what of what happened does also the died got shot in Georgia right. Before that. The last just. and. I. I mean I I. Agree I. I've found it especially in those early weeks. Very stressful to be somebody who really. Loves and supports law enforcement my whole my whole. Goal in life is to take care of and protect cops and to help them be good and do a good job. That's that's my passion. That's what I WANNA do. But I'm also very opposed to racism to be as anti-racist as I can be to and to stand on both sides to say, can I be both of these things and and work through and say, well, yeah, I really can because that's not what we want cops to be doing out there. On and find a way to not do the US versus them and to meet both good cops anti-racism. Those those are things that can go together I think everyone can agree that racism is awful and raisin, but police is awful. It's psycho psychopaths that scare me it's not just racist. It's like that guy that shot that man in the hotel in Phoenix do not story made the made the crawl and the guy's pants were falling off and he kept like reaching back said, don't reach back and then he shot him, it's a cop did that I don't remember. Yes, story well, the guy had a toy gun and someone reported them. They were drinking they were in a hotel room. Swat team shows up they tell this guy, this guy tells guide to get on the ground. The guy gets on the ground is crying saint. Please I didn't do anything and then he says crawl towards Disney's really fucked up instructions crawl towards me the guys crawling and his pants are falling down soccer's reach backs and tries to pick up his pants the guys screaming at them I will fucking shoot you and it's really clear. There's nothing in his pants. He's just reaching back because his pants are falling down and so he says again, crawl towards me and the guy's pants are falling down. He reaches back in the cop just lights up while he's on face down no threat no weapon no nothing. I mean it's one of the grossest ones you've ever seen and it's a white guy doing it to another white guy I think racism is awful but psychopaths. Are What the problem is. It's not just racism it psychopaths that are racist or. That guy had problems that Derek Show van didn't he have problems with white people to at a long history of abuse there was certainly wouldn't surprise me. There was more than there was multiple incidents and this is what scared me like, how does a guy stay on the police force when there's multiple incidents of him abusing people had what? Did they just said, well, we never thought it was gonNA kill somebody we thought he was rough but he was a good cop. Is that how they're looking at it like how does a guy like that get to a place where when you go back and look at his its complaints and this this guy was one of the reasons why Amy Klobuchar was kind of tanked as being vice presidential possibility because she was in control back when this guy was doing this and they connect, they will they will connected to her I remember reading. Yeah I know that obviously I don't I. Don't work in Minneapolis I don't know what was going on their department but just from the things I've read and heard you know media which I always take with a grain of salt because you never know what you're getting is that he'd had multiple prior incidents, multiple shootings I think one most fatal. So these are these are red flags markers. Now does that mean? He was definitely, you know take this prior to this incident if we didn't know what had happened here and if I just saw that he'd had prior complaints and prior shootings. That that may or may not be enough for me to say, Hey, what's going on and that depends on what were the complaints you know citizen complaints happen all the time right. So just seeing that someone's had a complaint, you know you could give someone a parking ticket and they think you're an asshole and so they called complained they treated me unfairly when you look back at, you know if there's body cam footage or whatever, and it's a perfectly normal stop at that person just pissed off because they got a ticket you know what I mean. So a complaint can be something very substantial and very real and problematic, or it could be one of these that complaints its citizens complaints come. All the time. How do you feel about the other cops that were on the scene that were there with him? I can't understand how one wouldn't intervene and say, okay, that's that's an off. Let's back off. Now the senior officer I don't know. I sounded like because I know they said two of the guys were pretty new on the job and the other one the one that you can see kind of standing in front had also been on the on the force for awhile but I don't I don't know which of the two had been on longer. Do the way the culture is excuse me the way. The culture is the two that were new if they saw him do that. It's not really is it Is that a thing that they can say if you're a new guy, you've been on the job for a couple of months and there's a guy who's been on the job for twenty years and you see him doing something is it your place? I understand is your place as a human being right. But how does the culture work is a paramilitary environment where if someone is your superior, it is very hard to speak out against that person. So that is that is definitely a problem and something that to act out and and and the culture in the department would be yeah. If that's somebody who either is a higher rank than you or who's been on longer, you know especially if they're brand new and that's like they're field training officer you're you're not going to step in and tell them not to do that. That's kind of. The way it's done. That's that's that paramilitary model. So if you are a shit out of luck in your superior officer is a psychopath and he's doing something like that if he doesn't kill that person and there's no complaint. What recourse does that person have if they go to? The person who is. Or the other officer the officer that's what recourses at officer have. If you're seeing someone abuse someone in your new on the job, can you go to internal affairs like and if you do, there's a stigma attached to that correct. There are ways to report fellow officers, es, but what most people do that? It's a tough call. Yes. It happens and some people do the right thing. But yeah, there's a cost that comes with that I think. Yeah. Yeah. More than one of the interesting reforms that lots of folks are talking about in some cities or passing is this requirement for other officers to say something and this is an interesting one. There's a lot of these piecemeal reforms that kind of made me go like, okay it's fine but I don't know if that's GonNa make much change this one makes. Me Stop and think and I I wonder if maybe it will maybe it will. I don't know I I I I see could go both ways where could be something? That's helpful. If there's a safe mechanism for people to report but you know in that situation, you know thinking about the that George Floyd situation you know if those if two of those officers had said. Hey, you need to back off and again still if they're inferior to him, you know. What are the? What are the odds that he's not going to tell them? Screw like I I'm superior you back off and. Everybody. Else also force and comes and they're the SNITCH and they're the you know the weasel and whatever else and so it's really these. The idea I think is a great one. Let's put. Let's put this law in place that you have to to to report it or to intervene if you see something but I just wonder how that will look as it plays out and you can't have a divide among people that he have to work that closely together you have to rely on to protect you have back and body cameras really are only good. Once something's happened and you have to review the body camera, right? It's. Not like someone's reviewing the body camera every day and gone Mike you kind of a cont like the way tree those people you fucking asshole why so rude. Why so mean this is not good as a police officer. Yeah. The only thought that folks had especially when body cams were first becoming the thing and tons of departments were you know we're starting to use them when people thought that kind of you know big brother's watching feeling. Well, you know if we know we're on camera, we're going to be on our best behavior and that we're GonNa always do the right thing and I'm sure there is some. Of that but. One Way to do that. What's that you stream it live all cameras. You have. Of Footage That's part of the problem in police departments when they start to implement body cam footage to make these big decisions on where to restore this data. How long do we keep it what? What all these? Decisions so we flood youtube but so we listen people are flooding youtube anyway I mean it sounds crazy. But if you did do that, there would be very little shenanigans I. Mean we kind of have that already because cell phones you don't I mean. Cell Phone and it's just one one perpetrator and three cops. You don't have anything. Yeah. If everyone was streaming all the time, it would be. It'd be really hard to get away with a lot of the stuff people get away with it would be one of the things I've heard people talk about with body Cam footage just having you know sort of that. Committee to to regularly review footage. In fact, there was reviewing eight hours a day all day long the officers on the it's it's such a monumental. Put It on Youtube. Sounds scary. What's on scary but it just this the chaos and mayhem that would ensue from that well but also accountability Cheerio both things would ensue from that. Let's. Let's here's another example of that. Made me sick has nothing to do with racism when they were in was it upstate New York where they pushed that old man down and He fell and bounces head off the ground and. was unconscious I think he's still in trouble. He yeah, he's still hurt I mean accuse really old and he fell and and slammed his head off the ground. So they charge the officer for doing that and then the rest of the officers they quit. Clearly, you shouldn't push an old man like that. Clearly when that guy falls and hits his head, you've got to look after him and give him medical attention. The guy was unconscious bleeding from the back of his head and he's really old like if you're that old and you fall down like that, he easily could have died. And you've got these cops that just walked away while this guy's down like that. Well, what did the guy say that was so bad that they put them down I mean he's some sort of like radical left wing activists and he's been that way whole life but he didn't touch anybody didn't he didn't assault anyone like why did they do that to him and why did those other cops? Wide they retire. Well, they quit because of this same camaraderie an I understand that you need that if you go to war together, you have to, you have to stay together you have to stick up for each other you. You're part of a team I understand that, but you can't do that in the whole world saw that. Yeah. What else can I say you can't do that? You can't do that I, it's you know I mean I can't I I wasn't there. I haven't talked to those officers I, don't you know I don't know what happened before i. don't know what happened after I. Don't you know all see is again these little snippets that come onto the news media and Push of frail old. something. That's that's awful. But when you've got these, you know these police and they're lined up there marching like what what, what's going on and how could that have happened in why? Like I I don't know I don't have an explanation for that one I don't I would like to know I'd like to talk to the people I'd like to see what was happening. was in that you know those all. Set. Up all these videos pile up all these times are cops abused people pile up. You know it's just. It's so unfortunate and every time a cop Fox up every other COP has to deal with the pain of that. To deal with the stigma and they have to deal with the anger in the the the backlash, it's definitely the One of the hardest aspects of the job is that you know you're given an immense amount of power badge and that gun just are are tremendous in terms of what they give you liberty to do and like all humans you know power power can corrupt nothing crops more than money and power right? Cops don't have money but they've got the power and and they you know it is so easy to let that you know to to to go the wrong way and so an in like I said in I, think that these that the folks that you see in these videos. Started out as bad people I don't think they. I mean, I spend so many days of my life evaluating these folks who want to go into this very noble profession. and the majority of them are just really. Great people occasionally get an idiot that comes through and usually they fail because they don't belong of worse and that percents. No. Thank. You fears that more idiots are going to get in. Now because less people want to be police well, it's going to be even worse doubly scaring now the defunding thing obviously is is a huge issue like what's going to happen agencies are not going to be able to hire has the money's being taken away it's a political things well. When they say we're going to de-fund police all the progressive people. Yes. I want to be unsafe. Yes but. That the combination of the defunding as well as the tanking. you know some of the departments that I worked for you know the the money that comes into that city year that town to support the department you know that we're all financial crisis going on from the pandemic. So I've I've a few of the agencies that I work for like, yeah. We don't anticipate hiring and maybe the next two to three years. So that's partly you know in in some it's not a defunding thing issue. It's just it's the financial crisis from the pandemic. You know that there's just there's things that are close across the board can also use that as a political ploy like say, we're defending the police as well but really cutting education, they're cutting right all sorts. We're all suffering right now because of the financial crisis going on from Cova crap. But in addition then you've got that plus the covert stuff and I mean you've got departments who are going to be really strapped for you know for for being able to hire, and then like you said, who wants to go into this job now? In. Fact when I do these still doing some evaluations right now and and the question. Then I, start off his what why do you want to do this given the current climate? You know what's what? What makes you want to be an officer just to hear what their thoughts are you know and and and sort of get get into their mind a little bit on on what is it? That makes you want to do this because really got to be You GotTa be second guessing your options here at this point because it's it's not an easy time to be a cop what if if I gave you a magic wand and or the president did the president said Look Nancy we got a real problem. We want you to help. And you will let you structure the program for the entire country for the police officers. What do you think should be done? No option I love that you ask that question in in therapy world there asked that question for our clients all the time we call it the miracle question. Therapists trick you just did right there and you do it to a lot of your guests I like it. Total therapist trick that we do. In your life if things could be perfect, what would it look like look at you? So yeah, if I could have you are you didn't even know. If I. could just take over and make all the changes Honestly I would take the advice of the amazing people have done a ton of work already in about five years ago. There was a task force put together to on recommendations for what should twenty first century policing look like and they lay out in a you know like hundred seventy page document. What policing should look like and this really amazingly brilliant group of people came up with some excellent. and. It talks about racism and it talks about technology and IT talks about community oriented policing, and it talks about wellness and all the things that I see that are missing. It's been sitting there for five years and not to say that nothing has happened since then but we certainly haven't enacted what? Task Force put together and what they recommended back. Then you know take that and all the other great work you know change and reform. Bright now you see it happening left and right all over the place. Right? It's it's it's piecemeal tap hazard. It's it's political. It's satisfy the unhappy folks right now and I agree that people are demanding change and they need action they wanna see right now I get that it's satisfying to see. Yes, there's change. But I'm also. Really, concerned about whether some of these random haphazard changes are going to make any different for real real problems. But yet, we've had these brilliant groups that have laid out what we need to do that report to Congress from back in March of two, thousand, nine on officer wellness. What I would do if I got the magic wand and all the money as I, you know again, psychologist Lens for me is I would sit down with that and there were twenty two recommendations in that report and I would work my way through making these recommendations become mandates across the board, and this is a big battleship. That's GonNa take a long time to turn absolutely these. Easy promos if they were, we would fix them. Right? We would. We would even with. Absolutely they are not easy they are not simple. You know so many of these societal problems there. So important in there. So profound like I. Always say you know my husband and I would argue politics because we see things from other sides of the fence and I'll be like you know it's ones the liberal. Do Gooder soft hearted. He's more conservative. He's a business guy. I'm the psychologists it all makes sense and you know. We'll debate and go back and forth. Mad At each other and you know and and it's it's we butt heads an he thinks I'm an idiot I think he's an idiot we roller is, and then you know I stop and think and reflect on it and think you know. If these problems were simple with all the brilliant people in the world we would have solved them already you know we would have solved them. We have to be able to see things from the perspective of others while I might get mad when he sees things differently from me, it also makes me stop and think because you know what in this case here's someone who I love. Who saying the things that maybe I don't love and so I have to stop and think maybe there's something to this. You know I could just be your horrible 'cause you you see these things and you think I'm horrible because I see things this way but you know what? We both have a perspective and they probably both have value. What you described as twitter. But Yeah I mean there's There's a lot of very good people that are conservative. They're decent people and there's a lot of very good people that are liberal. It's There's a lot of problems in this world and there's not there's not clear-cut solutions and the problem law enforcement to me is akin to the problem of education in that there's not a lot of money in it, but it's an incredibly important part of the world in incredibly important part of our society but yet the people that do it don't get paid well, right you know I mean some police officers can make a really good living if they do a lot of overtime. That is true but also you got to think about what kind of what are you talking about? You're talking about someone literally giving up eighty hours a week of of their life. Money Officer Wellness. That's one of the things I recommend against these overtime. I. Think you're right about that. It's very tempting. Financially the more like I say, the the best description of what happens mentally how the mental state of an officer kind of can get off track overtime was written in a book. It's it's older. Now I think it was early two thousands a guy named Kevin Gilmartin wrote a book called like emotional survival for law enforcement officers in their families, but it's probably not exactly right but that's close. Best Book I've ever read on police mental health and he describes in such an easily digestible way what what happens. With police officers and their mental state right? He talks about your normal humans. We kind of we we live between the lines like this is a normal state of alertness and functioning. So we all are kind of in here when you're on the job and as a police officer, you've got to live in the state of hyper vigilance like you're on your alert you're looking around you're you're you're always ready and you know sort of energized. Adrenalin flowing, and so they have to live up there and that's that's our bodies are meant to do that. For short term you know that's our nervous system. You know person that nervous system kicks were were up. and. You stay up there and then when they come off the job it dips down. But instead of going into that Middle Zone, the normal zone, where most of us are functioning kind of going about normal level of energy they dipped down below because once you've been on that high kind of that that rush while you've been on the job, your body needs to recover. So it goes down. into this low state, and while it's down there, you know you're getting. This is your you're nervous systems kicking back in your recovering you're out of that beast mode and you're in, you don't feel right. You're tired you kind of want to be alone isolated detached. You know and a lot of cops kind of go and retreat when they get home and they need that go to my cave time. Your body can recover from this. So the cycle cops is that they're up and then when they come home, they go down and it usually takes the body eighteen to twenty four hours to get back into the normal zone. Great. So if we did that one day and then we die down recover, we come back. But what happens within twenty four hours we go back to work again. So what happens copses they're up than their low than their way up there low and that's not the way our bodies were made to function. You're in the state of hyper vigilance for so long. It starts to wear on you. It wears on you physically it wears on you mentally it wears on you emotionally and you never get that recovery time to get back to a normal state. So they constantly in this slide shorter and shorter fuse. Yeah. Tense an alert and it makes you. Just wears on you over time. The other thing it does that cops are notorious for having trouble functioning at home if they're working too much in there. So into it. That all. Ten state feels good. You're energized. You're alert you're active, and then when you dip down, you don't feel good. So they started associating home with negative feelings and work with Pasta feelings. And so then what do they do? They crave work more. Overtime shifts and they hang out with other police officers and they start to kind of become their police self and they lose their personal self and so this is I love go Morton's book for this and I recommended to any officer that I've come across if they haven't read it because it really beautifully explained this cycle and kind of what it does over time any also goes on to recommend. Will you know how do you what the lungs long and short of it is at the end if you stay in that and you lose too much of your personal south, you become that burned out bitter. Angry going to snap and you know and do some make a bad decision kind of place. So how do you resolve that you? You've got to protect your personal self you've got to keep from getting hard and bitter and becoming too much of that police self and so one of the things is you protect your off time and you use it you engage you you do the things you love you don't give up your hobbies you if you have a family and kids, you do things with your children, you have to get back into the real world. So you remember that the real world is out there. Because if you are only in that state where all you're seeing is the things that cop see which has tippety and stress, and horror and trauma, and and. Hurt people and victimized people. If that's all you're seeing, you're spending all your life in that state you forget what happens on the outside. and I think it's really hard to understand from the outside looking in and I've told millions of people this story that I got a little bit little bit of a taste of it from my years when I was before I went into the academic route knows working in prisons and forensic hospitals, and so here's maximum security setting You know being young small female and a maximum security setting. I'm surrounded by offenders who are mentally ill. It's not an easy GIG and you've got to really kind of you've got to be in that state of hyper vigilance and so after a few years of that. I didn't notice. It was having any effect on me until I was working at a federal prison at the time and one of my college roommates came to visit me and we were hanging out and having a drink or whatever, and joking and. And after a while she was like. Hey nance and I was like, yeah, she's like you're different. I think what are you talking about? I'm not different I'm. Like no, I'm not. She's like you're really hard. You're. A little bit scared of you and I was like, what do you mean? She's like you're just kinda hard like. You know and I thought no, like she's she's an and when she said that it really kind of struck me. And like two weeks after that, I went to visit my sister and at the time she had young kids and I remember sitting outside watching somebody playing a ball game and and looking at all these families and. I remember having the thought like, what are they doing? Don't? Why are they also happy don't they know of what all that's going on don't they know about all the horrible people in the art they scared to be thought, oh. My Gosh, she was right like I've my brain has started to go into a place where because every day I had. Steel up get tough be ready for anything have is in the back of my head because I was working in a really dangerous setting at that time and I had to protect myself and what I flash after that I stopped working in the prisons and ice often back up and came back to a normal state of functioning where I can turn it on or off depending on if I need to. But it really was telling me to see how much your just your your daily persona can shift. When that's your day-to-day functioning so that Gilmartin stuff with the you know the the waves and the hyper vigilance and the recovery and the more people start to become their police self more and more in lose their personal self. It's a really important thing for officers to be aware of and to track and monitor if they wanna stay balanced the best of the cops that. I know and I know a lot of really good ones. But I think of a few that stand out who I just simply adore as humans and are really wonderful officers. They have that balance really down when they're on they're on. But then when they're off, they're doing stuff with their families are coaching their kids bog teams there you know active physically they're fed they're mentally. Sharp they they. They have a real personal life that hang onto that balances out what they see and the negativity that comes out them constantly in their in their day job It's just not something that most of us have to deal with in our daily lives and it's a really big deal and not see you know those mental health checks that I pushed so hard for, and then I really want to get going and to end to study and figure how can we do these well, can check in on that stuff and to help stop that cycle helped to get people into a healthier place so that They don't become bitter and jaded angry and more likely to do to. You know to be the bad apple as we like to say the description of that cycle. So important for people to recognize that. Yeah. We you know even though some human beings might be better at managing things. It's like there is there's an actual physical thing that's going on there is and when I when I meet with cops after an incident or you know if they're coming in, that's the first place I go because it feels so comforting to know this isn't me being week or me losing it? This is something physiological that's going on you know. Don't you think a lot of these cops are tempted to do overtime just because the money so great. Absolutely. Know Yes. And that's one of the perks of the job. That's one of the things I love that they can I mean hundreds of thousands of dollars a year that could literally double their pay and it's and it's great to have that option. But again at what cost the to have a balanced overtime is fine. But if that's all you're doing and if you're doing it, this is probably really important key if you're doing it to avoid being at home. Because being on the job is the only place you feel. Functional and alive and good. That's where the danger sets in. If you're doing it because you know you're you're trying to make extra money to get that. You know to take your family on a trip summer vacation or whatever. Absolutely like do it get that extra money 'cause that's great. But if you're doing it because that's the only place you feel alive and on an alert. Trouble Yeah you you might be getting a little bit off in. That's GONNA lead probably to a place. It's not great. So I'm going to bring you back to this. Again you got this magic wand magic. The President says Nancy takeover. What are you? GonNa do To do I'm GonNa pull all of those things are that already been done and I'm going to implement reform among towel all those angry political folks that are fighting with each other to hush to stop fighting that we've got really smart people who've already given it and I'm going to put in place nationwide procedures for how we hire how we make decisions. Particularly, of course, psyche vowels I'm an implement nationwide requirements for screening and mental health and wellbeing. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA I'M GONNA get Jaakko onboard next to meet A. Develop training programs right arm on my team up with him, and we're going to recreate the world of training together and and we're GONNA. You know do more training all the stuff that we need and to get people who are actually healthy well, physically fit as well as emotionally and mentally healthy and and well equipped to do their job and not just on the tactical side but on the communication side escalation. Communication. Hotta talk to people who are victims what to do all those things in a training package so that You know the academy's they do a good job. I don't want you know to to make that they don't. But that police academies tend to do things in the same way like that the courts do they rely on precedent they do what's always been done because that's what we know in. That's what works and to have a a joint A joint planning of a of training where it's not just this is what we do. So this is what will keep doing but to pull in the academic piece as well and to say, Hey, yeah. But we've been doing all this research and there's actually a better way. So let's implement this now and so just to really upset and refresh what that academy training and the ongoing throughout your career training looks like. So reforms training on the job take care of our officers and and to put in place all of these recommendations you know the specific level recommendations on. How do we actually get in there and take care of folks There's there's so much that's that we can do that could make a big difference and there's gotta be something done to push back against this this. This idea that we have right now weaponized this idea of defunding the police, the police are evil. You know the the police having money is the problem. It's it's crazy like. There's a reason why we have the police folks. They're necessary. It's very important. To abandon them or to treat them like anything other than members of our community and very important members of our community is so short sighted in. So crazy and done by people that I don't think understand psychology, I don't understand violence I. Don't think they understand crime and it's again it's it's weaponized. It's this thing they're using now to push a political agenda to to align themselves with people you know so that it helps them get reelected helps them gain power with their constituents. It's so dangerous and it's such a weird thing to hear coming out of mainstream politicians miles the we need to de-fund the police make you guys are crazy. I mean when people talk about defunding along the lines of? Take some of that money and put it into communities like that piece of it could be. If done well, beneficial Y ticket from the COPS. Needs. Necessarily take from the COPS, but to take to really pay more attention to our communities and what they're needing you know the police over the last five decades have had to take on more and more and more jobs within the community I. Mean a lot of people would say that the key change came in the sixties when de Institutionalization happened from the mental hospital. So it used to be if someone was mentally ill, they went to the hospital basically stayed there right sixties came de Institutionalization all those folks, let's put them out the community so they can return to their homes. Let's. Let's put money into community mental health that didn't happen the way it was supposed to. So the the community mental health never got funded properly, and then all those folks who had mental illness did not get proper treatment went off meds all sorts of problems. And now, who has to deal with it took me. Right. So they became mental health clinician, social workers, domestic violence, all that stuff. So right if defunding the police means putting money into social services and helping these folks in a way that makes it so that the police officers don't have to do those jobs anymore I'm all right with that and I think most of the cops are because I've spent half my career here on this side of police say, Gee, stuff training folks how to talk to people with mental illness so they don't end up. Right. There certainly should be tops the are designated. Situation people have found amazing ways around it to work on it. We've developed what we call crisis intervention teams. You know this came out of the Eighties and Memphis that you know the cit thing where we have cops and clinicians that go out together. I don't know any clinician that wants to do that by themselves. So if you see from the police and everyone says, yeah, you know if it's a domestic violence call send a therapist out. Well I know because I work with cops that domestic violence calls are one of the most likely to end in violence I'm not going there Roy in. My might go there if there's an armed person with me and I'll try to you know to do but like as a team, but you're going to send me into a potentially violent dangerous situation where you've got to light. So Utopian Perspective on a very complicated problem. Yeah. Exactly. It's a simple while we don't like what we have. So let's get rid of it, and that's it's far too simplistic. You've got the evidence right now and this is short term study in New York. City. You know and I mean. As Well Yup folks that I know in New York some that training program I talked about earlier the cops that worked on that who decided know what retirement is the right thing for me right now and who left the force because they just can't do this. This is the lack of support and and what's going on is just too much. It's not worth staying anymore and so dangerous yeah it's it's very unsettling and overwhelming and into see how rather than trying to come in and figure out improve what we've got it's like It it. It just doesn't make sense that throw hands up and say, okay, get rid of it because what's the plan B it's just it's a politicized perspective but isn't everything right now? Yes, every. Police politicized occasion is. Work when? I have a friend who got cove it, and when you went to the doctor, the doctor tested. Covert and said I don't know what your political leanings are. And it was like what? He's like well hydrochloric. Win. Tends to work really well in the early stages of disease to keep the virus from multiplying and he recommended hydrochloric win and zinc, and he's like I. Don't know what your political leanings he goes like my political leanings he goes I just don't want to be sick he goes. What do I do I do man don't tell me that I mean there was a recent. Study that was published in new or an article in Newsweek from an epidemiologist that was saying the exact thing that we have something to treat it. And because the fact that trump recommends it, it becomes this. Politicized medication that people are avoiding this doctor? Told me people are saying I don't want to take that medication 'cause I hate trump. Told my God. It's. Gotten to really messed up all so critical. that a pandemic is politicizing that whether or not one would that a physician would ask you what your political leanings are to prescribe you something known as a place that. I just can't wrap head around as to how we've ended up here too many of our ideas are being discussed and social media form where there's no one on one interaction with human beings. Yeah. Passion. You know recognizing that the other person actual human when you ask that Dream Magic Wand question my my you know give my practical answer. You know we take these recommendations and do all of these community policing wellness but my dream answer. My my fantasy worlds where I'm an all-powerful being I would. What do you dress like? Do of a wonder woman costume. This. I'm kind of thinking something like you know angel now it's darker than that Bradman. It's Sorta like Batman cat women something in that I'm thinking in that. That's probably more up my alley than like angel and and Halo I, don't think I could pull out halo jobs. In my in my fantasy world where I have all power and I can I, I spend all of my existence bringing people from opposing sides together and making them sit like we are now looking at each other as humans into say, let's Let. Let's find a way to connect. It's taking cops and community members and pulling them in the same room and say, Hey, let's let's find our common ground. Let's let's voice our sites. Let's hear each other outlets recognize that we aren't us in them were humans we are people we are. We are victims of our circumstance where victims of ourselves of our histories like but but we also can come together and and see that really when it. Comes down to we are all human beings and we all want to do well and be well some people in different ways. Do we have to agree on anything? No but can we at least find that place where where we look for the common ground you know and in the case with the police in communities I feel like it actually is is doable and feasible thing. You know one of those other things what would happen if we did that what happened if I went around pulling people in and and breaking down the US versus them, you know we could do it cops and communities Republicans and Democrats, and you know we are all humans when it comes down to. The people that are opposed to that of the real problem the people that are posted are kind of community communication and the people that are essentially cemented in their polarization. Then they're just looking for a fight and they're not looking for a solution. Problem it is and there's an I feel like that is as a society we've just. Gotten. To a seriously scary point with. US versus them perspective and and I I hate that more than anything. So. Yeah if I could if I could have my magic wand, that's that's where it would be. It would be to just start start healing and putting people together and finding common ground and and pulling us back together as a society, no political speeches either new. To Talk Yeah, you gotTa Hold Things here. This is the academic nerd in me like as I was planning I mean we've talked about we've talked about a lot of a lot of the things on there. Or anything we didn't cover that you think is important that people need to recognize. You know the only thing like for my perspective that comes up that I think about is you know when we are when we're looking for who who becomes a police officer you know we as psychologists we were really important gatekeepers because we kinda give the final seal of approval before someone gets hired and there's been some really interesting discussions about what should we look for and you know in today's Culture and you know with all the issues going on now you know, can we screen out bias and racism and I mentioned a little bit before that you know doing so as a really challenging thing We. Probably will never be able to do it to the degree that people want us to and there's been a lot of talk about implicit bias had anybody come on and talk about that kind of stuff the you know that that the idea that we all have these of sub conscious or unconscious. Bias we they're. Just. Below awareness they're just kind of things that we all react in ways. Some more dramatic than others. But that we are made as humans that we have these implicit bias and so a lot of folks have talked about can't we can't we screen for implicit bias and officers and you know not hire the people who have that and I thought well. No because the problem is we all have them. There's a an online test that millions of people have taken. It was it's connected with Harvard. It's the implicit association test. It's online. Anybody can go take it and it's really fascinating choose what groups do you want to see if you bias towards you know different races there's a black white one There's you can do the fat skinny one You can see if you're you have bias towards you know different sexual orientation. So you choose which bias you want to investigate you take this test and basically it's saying the the whole premise is if you Have these associations You know if if you have the a a bias like against black folks than what they do during the test is a flash up like a picture of white and black people and then positive and negative words, and you have to respond according to instructions for key strokes and the the notion is if you associate, you know a black if you have a negative bias towards black folks here, going to associate the black faces with the negative words you're going to respond faster over swimsuit cruising this test. It's been around forever real I. Mean Well, it has to be really criticized. So what's funny is that? It is if your attesting percent. So in my day job, but of testing thing is it's not life. It's it's not and that's exactly kind of the point that I thought was important to make you hear a lot about this and people are like we'll give that. Mike there's some major problems. First of all from testing standards, you can take it twice and you're probably gonNA score differently problem could juke that system you go on no, they want me to do. What if you were an actual racist and you took that but you knew they were looking for racist you would pretend. So the theory behind the test is is it supersedes that because it's instant and it's fast it's how quickly you know what you're doing and so the theory is that because these are below the surface that it gets around trying to manipulate it. That's the idea I'm not I'm not advocating and saying it's perfect but those who support, it would say it's a big deal. What scares me is that people have wanted to use that in screening. And we can't because number one it's implicit. We all have these biopsies number two just having it does not predict whether or not. You would ever act on a bias rate. So there is no there. There's good research that shows that having implicit bias meaning you will you act in a racist way right so there's not a connection there. So that's the second problem. But what what stands out to me is there's there's people who are like now doing these implicit bias trainings and it's and they're doing it for for officers. And I'm not saying this is a bad thing or knocking at their some research that supports and shows that if we want to and if we're if we are actively engaging in trying that, we can change our implicit bias like we can. Once we become aware of it we can do things to counter it to change it and decrease it and that's a great notion. But they're trying really hard to implement this into the world of police work because it's kind of one of the only things going right in for me. I'm not as on this bandwagon yet I need to see a whole lot more evidence that this works. Because while I have seen research shows, it's possible to change your implicit bias. I have not seen anything that directly applies to police work and and and again it may still. Be Out there the I haven't come out maybe I haven't come across the studies are I haven't seen it yet there some stuff out there but the problem that I see that makes me most nervous about it or or reluctant to kind of jump on board here is that you really it takes a lot of effort. It takes desire and practice and effort and to make those kinds of changes and I just you know if you've. You've probably never worked for a company where you've been required to go to a diversity training I've been to probably a dozen at this point over the course of my career. How far the horrible ninety percent of them are horrible. I've been two maybe two that were amazing. It's horrible. They're canned. They're they're a lot of them just don't give much information that's helpful and it's Like it's it's exactly what you would expect in a diversity. This group is this and this group is that and and if you feel this way you're wrong and if you do this, you're wrong and it just sort of makes you leave feeling like a horrible person. And can you be specific? Coach. Oh Gosh I think of a good like specific example it's been a while since I've had to go to any of them and the most recent one. I went texture pretty fantastic it's more like. You. Know here's why here's what what white people are like. Here's what black people are like and they're based on these over generalizations and stereotypes, and maybe I've just been maybe I've just gone to a lot of bad trainings in mind. Agencies that I've worked for and they haven't been put on but they just seem i. mean can. Air using implicit bias to describe white people and black people because that sounds biased not. Biased. But more. Generalization. It can be I think it's just they tried to or at least a lot of the groups that have put him on try to it very broad. So it'll fit a wide audience that they deliver it to, but it becomes so broad that it just feels like. Like this, this is a very helpful. So it seems like something fall that they have to do to show. They're doing something right and so I think a lot of those you know police departments are are being required to do diversity training. So whenever I hear they kind of cringe just having been to some really bad ones and think we'll cauti-. Who's doing that and is it doing more harm than good diversity training is a wonderful thing when done well, I just think how was it done? Well, You know when I think of the ones that I've been to that were done well, they they explained the you know the process of sort of exploring one's thoughts and feelings it was not so much accusatory but you know here are some of the things that that folks who are really interested can do. And you know you can't you know and here are some people who are doing good work and they show different news stories of people who are you know who have who have come the long gone from you know being somebody who maybe had problems before with you know having bias or even racist acts and that they've learned some things and made changes and so you kind of see someone's progress and they talk about theory behind how people come to identify you know with you know their cultural background and self. We've all got some makeup there and and what those stages look like and you know much deeper and moving far away from the. Just. Generalizations and stereotyping, and the this group and that group which is. A seminar port. Just. Seems so silly. Yeah I it's hard. It's I mean, and if somebody really does want to dig deep and explore and you know to to move forward in terms of. Exploring and becoming aware of you know I it is. It's deep work. It's hard work. It's something that I think you really have to want to do, and that's you know sitting in a seminar room for two hours and being talked at. Usually isn't that effective so they're hard things. It's it's a really really important topic and I think we got a long way to go You know in in terms of screening and and whatnot like I do were were in a tough place because you know we don't have any tests that detect bias and to create one we would we would. An impossible thing because these are things that tend to be you know more subtle and less overt and hard to. Hard to directly measure in the way we do in psychology what what else you got in that paper And we didn't go over and. We talked about a lot of stuff because I would imagine something like this like it's opportunity right to think like talk about and how's IT GONNA go. Is there anything that we covered that we maybe didn't cover correctly or weird or. Let me turn I. Don't know what have we talked about. It's all such a blur sitting here in the seat in this Mike. You do this every day. I. Don't. Is Weird. Voice in your ears totally weird. You hear my voice, my ears I'm used to hearing my own voice but more like. In a classroom with students who are hiding behind laptops falling asleep while I talk at them but. Talking into a microphone with Hudson and that headset on and knowing lots of voices are listening. You know I think the most important thing that we talked about other than the nonsense of defunding the police is this the psychological aspect of the pressure and the? High stress and then the amount of downtime that a human being requires to sort of come back to normal that these cops really never get that. Yeah. I feel like that is that is one of the most important things I wanted to to share and get out there. So you know if there are. Cops out there listening and they're like Oh wow that. Felt batter and they're like, go get that book and read it. There's so much good advice in there and and most departments. If they're larger sized departments, they have more resources obviously than smaller departments but you know there's a lot of resources out there for folks who feel like they need support my biggest concern I think right now is that. In this negative climate and this anti-cop moment that we're in is that there are a lot of cops that were maybe. Under stress before you know maybe in a not so great place for whatever reason just the jobs wearing on them or they've been in a a major incident and they're still recovering from that and then combine that with just this. Hurt. anti-cop and all of that that that really could push people into into a dark place and we know you know police suicide has been a major problem. It's gone up in the past few years. So. The rate while? In, terms of percentages it's almost impossible to give a good number because it depends on what you're. What you're comparison group is I know in two thousand, eighteen think there were recorded known about one, hundred, seventy, two suicides, and then in two thousand nineteen, it was up to like two, twenty eight. And I'm scared to know what two thousand twenty might look like given all the other hardships suicide a general's way up. General's high. So I can only imagine and there's a little bit of argument depending on what stats you look at us to how much higher it is in the police profession compared to the community. So different you know people can put make stats say a lot of different things. It's generally been accepted that it's a good bit higher for police. One of the one of the professions it has the highest suicide rate. So like one of numbers quoted out there like for the general population, it's about twelve or thirteen per one hundred, thousand people would commit suicide and for police officers, it's more like seventeen or eighteen people out of one hundred thousand. So you know we see differences in the rates and again, all that stuff we talked about before feeds into that tough culture not going to ask for help in one of I, think the most interesting things interesting in frustrating for me is that of the other psychologist I've talked to that have worked with agencies and I'm like, how do we get in there and break down that barrier? How do I get them to come to me? And when they need help so that we can prevent the suicides and helped him once they do come to you. So if I can get them to me, I can I mean, I can't be all knowing an all perfect. If we can get them to a psychologist, we can help them using. So in most cases for suicide. Yeah. Because there's always hope suicide is when you've lost the hope and you feel like. That pain is never gonNA end and you don't you see no way out and we we can help with that. If we know it's there and we know what to look for I. Feel very confident that when you get a good their best and you get someone in with a good there, but we can help but it's when they don't reach out and that is the biggest problem with with officers is that They will suffer in silence and they will go every other which way it turns into depression or they have PTSD or they're using substances to cope with the difficulties and you know all the other things that compound on there that what's the best way to get them into the office so we can help them and a great line, and now I'm GonNa Blank and I'm so sorry for whoever it was I'm stealing. This. From another psychologist said what she's like you gotta be like the furniture and I'm like what does that mean? She's like in the department you gotta be like a coat rack or a chair they're so used to seeing you there. It's like Oh hey, doc hey, what's up high Panza like hey, you know they're so used to seeing you and you're just like one of them. That's when they come talk to you. So. That's that was one of the things that stood out be the furniture like. But the thing that's frustrating about that is it's hard for departments to open their doors and let outsiders in you know what I it's. It's hard to say, okay here a available you've got a contract with this company so that anybody who needs therapy can go but just to have that person present. So things that have been suggested or you know have a one day a month have a have have you know the the Dachshund the office there? And anybody's free to come in and ask questions or talk. It's open door talk about you talk about a friend come in and it's all confidential. It's all covered you know whatever. But that they're so used to seeing you that over time they they will come in and be like Oh. Yeah you're okay. You know it's doing right along with people it's becoming familiar but I find that it's hard to get departments to open that door to kind of. Accept you as as as part of them would doesn't it depend entirely on the personality of the psychologist as well It'd be really annoying how around yeah. So you'd be great to have around your Nice. person. Fun To talk to but but I'm sure there's a lot of psychologists that are not yeah it's true and they probably don't want to be police psychologists then. 'CAUSE YOU KINDA got A. You got to at least have a an appreciation. If not an affinity for that, there's always been something about it. That's fascinating you know and that that that has drawn me in to say you know what this is just this is just a stupid hard job and the people who do it work so hard and put so much of themselves into it, I've just always had that soft spot and. So yeah like just being there and being present so that the door is open and they might just slip into it because if we can get them in there, I feel really confident that we can help. We know what to do. That's what we do. We help people who are depressed or anxious or traumatized or considering ending their life because we of all the things want to stop that one. and. Obviously Abuse Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Really. Good to talk to you and I think what you do is very important and I think we're both in agreement that is an unbelievably difficult job and very under appreciated and You know there's a lot more good cops and there are bad cops that's for sure. That's for sure. Thank you very much. Today. Do you ever social media or anything mainly just e mail. Lamelo. I'll social media that people can go for. What do you have? I have to give it to. Tweeter instagram. I, stay away from it. Yeah. That's why. Should female I can't deal with all the social media. Thank you very much. Thank you and thank you tour sponsors. Thank you to teeter teeter in their awesome inversion table that I literally us every single day to alleviate pressure on my spine. It feels good. It's awesome for you and they're gonNA hook you up. You can get a new for a limited time. You can get the new teeter inversion table with bonus accessories plus a free pair of gravity boots. So you can choose how you want to invert at home or on the go teeter version tables have thousands of reviews on Amazon and a four point seven star rating, and with this deal, you can get over two hundred dollars in value added features when. You go teeter dot com slash rogan. You also get free shipping a sixty day money back guarantee and free returns is absolutely no risk for you to try it out remember you can only get the new teeter fit spine inversion table plus free gravity boots by going to teeter dot com slash Rogan. That's T. E. R. dot com slash rogan. We are also brought to you by the mother fuck and cash ask the CASH APP the number one APP and financing the known universe. Download the cash APP from the APP store or the Google play store today, and when you do download it, make sure you use the Promo Code Joe Rogan. All one word, no space you'll receive ten dollars and the cash will also send ten dollars to our good friend Justin Rennes fight for the forgotten charity building wells for the pygmies in the Congo and we're proud. Proud to be a part of this program and proud to say that through the sponsor and through this program, they have raised shitloads of money and built several wells and in the process of building more as we speak, and we're very very happy about that and we're also brought to you by whoop that twenty, four, seven fitness tracker that I wear every single day. Listeners this podcast? Can get hooked up by whoop. They're going to offer you fifteen percent off the code Rogan. Go Whoop. That's W. H. O. P. DOT COM enter rogan cow to save fifteen percent off sleep better recover faster and train smarter optimized your performance with whoop. Thank you friends. Thanks for tuning them much luck.

officer COPS murder Joe Rogan George Floyd Minneapolis Fullerton Police Department teeter International Association of C US Congo New York City Google Jaakko California State University Fu physical stress Strada
Daniel Richman and Sarah Seo on Law Enforcement Federalism

The Lawfare Podcast

53:24 min | Last month

Daniel Richman and Sarah Seo on Law Enforcement Federalism

"Hey l'affaire listeners. Ben witness here reminding you that ads are not an inevitability. There are more than one way for you to help fund l'affaire one way is for you to listen to the ads that we put on this podcast. Another way is for you to go to patriotdepot dot com slash law fair. That's patriotic dot com slash off. Air support us directly and get an ad. Free version of this podcast. You also get access to other cool stuff like our regular weekly law fair live events. That's patriot dot com slash l'affaire which department of any sort can be given sustaining help by outside players is not necessarily a world that we ought to be comfortable with. Then i think over time. It would be very useful to see even greater consolidation of police department. Say it's not exactly a trend but if something people talk about for awhile but it's quite hard to do because local we see is thought to be a right of any township. I'm benjamin this. This is the law fair podcast. June eleven two thousand and twenty one. Daniel richmond and sarah sale are professors at columbia law school. They are co authors together of an article on l'affaire last week entitled toward a new era for federal and state oversight of local police. They joined me in the virtual jungle studio to discuss the article. The history of the federal state relationship in law enforcement how the feds came to play an oversight role with respect to police departments. The limits of that role inherent in the cooperative relationship that law enforcement agencies engage in for other reasons the role that the feds might play under new legislation and the role. That state governments may play as well. It's a wide ranging conversation that takes us to some surprising places including the history of cars. In how the feds came to play a role in prosecuting crime. It's the law fair podcast. June eleventh daniel richmond and sarah ceo on law enforcement federal ism. So i wanna start with the george floyd justice and policing act. Which is where you guys. Start the article. How does this change the federalist balance of america's traditional attitudes toward policing. I think we have to start with the fact that policing is a local matter typically according to black letter doctrine on federal The us government is separate from local matters on things like policing so. That's why we have to. I start and the the proposed act changes that in a few ways. Dante wanna take it over here. Yeah and when we say change. I want to be very mindful of of one. Sure way well-founded criticisms of of this legislation which is that it's small bore. It's incremental on a dozen solve the larger problems etc and and those are all fair points to make. But but i think what our piece highlights is that this really is a change. It's making the federal government really take ownership of what could always have been its role as a partial oversee or of police departments not in a straightforward hierarchical way because as sarah points out that's not the american federal system and it's not our history but federal funds of always been flowing to local police departments yet. They've never been harnessed as as an engine for for reform in the way that the bill starts to do and the federal collection of information again well well established through history with the federal government really serving as an informational platform to help local police department solve crimes in and do do what they will. But now with the national police registry again incremental bound to be criticized but it starts putting the federal government in an information collection mode with regard to policing in particular police abuses. So what does this do. Walk us through. You know exactly how it is a change you know what is this registry and why is it significant even if only incremental. Well i'll start by saying even to articulate the changes being made too. Many westerners seem mike not only incremental but no brainers. The idea that police officers can be fired or or we've under very troubling circumstances from one department then pick up and go to another department. Seems i hope to most people to be something that ought not to be colorado. What the national registry. That is set up by this. Bill does is make as a condition of receiving federal funds. The need for police departments to really step up and to report these officers and even the process of reporting these officers and they're being a national registry doesn't guarantee anything with regard to the hiring of these police officers necessarily compliance will always be spotty in any national system but it starts the process. It really starts turning the battleship of putting the federal government in a position to gather this information and to make local departments account. The bulk more accountable for the officers they hire. That was one piece of the reforms that we talked about in our piece. The other piece of act that we mentioned is encouraging state attorneys general to bring pattern and practice lawsuits in federal court and even Providing federal grants to support those types of lawsuits. So that's another way that the federal government is encouraging oversight of local policing not by the federal government Directly this time but but by encouraging state attorneys general to do that work serves making a really important point that so much of what the federal government is capable of doing and really should be asked to do is only impart going to some sort of direct oversight so much of what the federal government could do is empower and hold states responsible for doing more within their own jurisdictions This is something that historic ways happened in policy spaces and really has not happened until recently and states are starting to step up on our own but this bill is is pushing states or at least enabling states to do a lot more. Let's talk about the history. The federal government's traditional role in local criminal policing is very near zero. And in this article. You guys trace how that began to change and the road that we didn't go down in that regard and so walk us through that a bit. It's funny that you use the metaphor of the road. They didn't go down through. Because the auto del play such a big part in this history. And how it's changed local policing so like we started off with policing a local matter from the very beginning of us history. but as american society became More mobile I with the railroad and then with the automobile Local police departments realized that do their work to attract fugitives to find out whether people have been committing crimes elsewhere. Travelling to different jurisdiction to thorndike's they needed to rely on each other to share information about crime and criminals. This became a huge problem with the mass production of cars and so tried to get together themselves to build a network of sharing information. And that's actually how i a. Cpa the international association of chiefs of police. Which is today still a a big lobbying and advocacy organization for law enforcement. That's how they got their start. In the late nineteenth century as a way to share information among big police departments they realized that their own networks were insufficient to the task. Because this was sharing information and building database based on voluntary efforts was not going to be enough and so they asked the federal government to step in and help them. This is this was the starting point of law enforcement officials realizing badge the problem of crime in federal federalist system of government in a large country where mobility was a given of required more coordinated efforts in the look to federal government to help them just to build on sarah's point what i found fascinating it might be be old hat for historians but what i found fascinating is is the role that wiped supremacy played in the growth of a federal role in law force. Clinton that sounds a widow on a sense that a lot of the resistance to federal authority particularly in the south in the latter part of the nineteenth century and early part of the twentieth been waiting harbor twentieth came from the fear that that feds would be dispatched to interfere with with local customs including jim crow. When ching and other norms that were being protected by southern legislators so so localism was really important guarantor of white supremacy but in an interesting development white supremacy became a vehicle for the extension of federal power. Not with respect. To anti-hunting norms there was no chance or widow chance for anti lynching legislation to pass. But if you look at prohibition the nanak would were as it was called them the white slavery act and other federal extinctions of authority they were ribbon at least in part by concern about african-american criminal conduct that extended beyond the control of the locality and rhetoric about white supremacy became important for for growing the federal enforcement bureaucracy as did commercial interests. I mean one of the things. We also found this. It's not just an interest in in protecting white supremacy that that grows federal power. It's a desire to help insures of cards. And in addition to developing an information platform at the behest of locals the feds ended up or at least. The fbi ended up spending about half. Its caseload doing car-thefts cases that pretty much were for the benefit of of local enforcers sometimes ended up even being prosecutor in county courts. So there is a fascinating history. Always offers multi causal explanations for why things Happened the way they did. And then just provided one a fascinating aspect of what the federal government to get involved in law enforcement so that was one factor The mass production of cars was another factor in all of that. I think it another distinct but overlapping issue. is mobility so a lot of the new federal crimes that were enacted during the early twentieth century. Were criminalising crimes. That were already criminalised at the local level but what they the federal aspect was the transportation interstate transportation. So the man act regulated morals that That the hook for federal legislation was interstate transportation. Theft is a local crime but the federal hug for the dire act was interstate. Transportation prohibition had been criminalized at the local level at in the nineteenth century. But what was different about. National prohibition was a again that reality that people could get around state and local prohibition laws because they were able to transport liquor across state lines and so a lot of us federal laws that Were acted during this. Early period was because of the growing mobility of americans And crime and so a lot of this history hasn't do raise. It has to do with mobility it has to do with material developments the car and so we get to a point in the early twentieth century where the federal government and they don't want to get involved in law enforcement when police chiefs ask them to form a database of criminal information. Congress actually says no but when insurance lobbyists say we we need this law because we need a law criminalizing auto theft across state lines. Because because it's a huge problem that's when congress starts getting involved An interesting way. Even though congress doesn't build an informational platform when asked directly it ends up happening through thin forcement of these federal criminal laws. Let's talk about the car. Because when most people think about federal ism in policing the white supremacy angle is kind of intuitive timid. The car is less. So talk to us about the role of the car in the history that starts with policing being entirely a local matter and ends at least for now in the floyd justice and policing federalization so a lot of this joint research. That dan i idid started from my research into. How cars transformed policing. I looked strictly how it changed local policing and to kind of really evaluate the law enforcement and at the early twentieth century that they needed to modernize and professionalize and to hire more police officers because they were proactive. Crimefighters i i looked at what they were actually doing day to day and i realized how much of what when they were talking about crime. The sensational accounts were about catching murderers and Bank robbers but day to day what they were really doing most of the crimes that they were dealing with were auto theft crimes and audit theft constantly required police officers to have a be armed with weapons and Equipped with patrol cars. A lot of that auto theft work Investing addicts Required paperwork checking a licensed registrations and things like that seems that the that could be done mostly in an office and just checking car repair shops and parking lots. It's so rea defense and there's gonna be a federalism story to this when we looked into it We auto theft was also a huge part of the case. Load of the fbi called the bureau back then before nine hundred thirty four so when we looked at we looked at two why the federal bureau got so involved in auto theft cases and we discovered this really interesting history of mocal officials local law enforcement requiring help in investigating auto theft cases because Costs could be stolen in one city or town or state And then be found in another jurisdiction where they had no authority to go over there and Bring the the fief and to prosecute under states in state court so they had these jurisdictional constraints they had. Financial constraints on extradition was costly and a hassle and so after the insurance bobby groups persuaded congress to pass the dire act mocal Police officers local police departments as well as the insurance companies. That started to look to the bureau to help them. Prosecute these investigate and prosecute these cases and so what the bureau did was to Basically we call these the metaphor of packaging because they would just bring together all the evidence scattered throughout the country that they would find the car in one state and The origin stay. Where where the car was stolen from. Do you want to prosecute can bring gather all the evidence to you under federal jurisdiction granted by the federal logged the dire act and they could gather all of this evidence and bring it to the state. That wanted to prosecuted. Or if they didn't they could prosecute under federal law and so the bureau played this really kind of coordinating role so it in an interesting way. The federal law didn't just give them a mandate to enforce their loss investigated. Also give him a opportunity to help. Local department investigate case says that should have traditionally been under the jurisdiction and to build on on board to continue the story. Sarah just beautifully told what you see in these carcase car. Theft cases is the beginnings in development of interesting information. Economy between the feds in the local is one that really still resonates in the relationship that the federal government has with police departments. Because you know the bureau was always small continues to be small given its remit an. It's concerns it's heavily reliant on local police departments and it needs to win their trust and win their local information and and it gets it over time by doing cases that are primarily rebounding to the benefit of the local local crimes are being saw. Yes does this added benefit that congressional funders looking to impressed by statistics will see a lot of car. Recovery's in cases prosecuted but the bureau becomes so much so dependent as as it needed to be on local departments that it really had a an important incentive to to stay on side with them particularly when from time to time when making the big cases that one headlines going after injure going after other famous bad guys in the thirties and beyond a beer with stuck on local cows and it needed to make up for that and over time you have the development relationship where the bureau is just not that keen to step on the toes of local police departments. That helps explain. Doesn't completely there other factors at work. There are locked in to investigate. Police abuses that certainly was hardwired into the federal government until nineteen thirty nine but even after the roosevelt administration's started to push the feds to do something with regard to local police. They were not fully embracing of that project. And what we see. Now i gripe to think is the overcoming of that reluctance to investigate logo police departments on the part of the bureau and other federal enforcement actors. But it doesn't come naturally to them and we need to work on that at the end of the day from police. Accountability perspective is the federal. Ism the sort of cooperative federalism that you're describing better or worse than a kind of national police force in the national police force model. Which is the model that most countries have at some level. You have no obvious entity to investigate abuses within the national police force but here you have a theoretical answer to that question if there are police abuses in department acts the feds you know have civil rights laws that they can use us jurisdiction to come investigate it but the cooperative nature of the relationships that you're describing actually make that pretty hard and so i guess the question is is federalism a net plus or a net minus or a net neutral from the point of view of police accountability. I think from the perspective of accountability in a world where where there are no safe spaces. One cannot trust in the the oh and commitment of the fed's of states of logos when it comes to looking to police abuses and protecting the rights of those who are being policed and being concerned about the effects of policing on communities. So if you start from the idea there are no safe spaces. I think one embraces a world of accountability where as many players as possible have an interest and responsibility in perhaps stepping on one another's toes perhaps getting into spats that play out in the media dots liberating public discourse about policing the more activity from the more players in my mind. The better so in that sense the federal government will for the reasons you just described at least two starkly not be as keen as exercising oversight role when it comes to local police departments. But they can. They should be held accountable for playing. Overall and in particular states have escaped. I think not exactly scott free but road. We scott free from from what i would like to think. As their responsibility to look to policing within their jurisdiction the kind of the relationship that developed between local police departments the feds as as our suggestion as our article really highlights kind of cut out the states and left them not as other than address that one goes to when one seeks police reform and it was even worse than that not only were. They not be held accountable for driving oversight of police with jurisdiction because they weren't a place of political focus. Police unions got to do quite a lot of work in state. Legislators that put even damper on holding. Local police accountable. So i think we had the worst of both worlds with the state's being partial actors but in a negative sense. And i like to think that with a lot of the focus of reform efforts in the way a george floyd staff and a lot of the effort that the feds of starting to do in putting in holding the state's feet to the fire at least liberating states to do something will make them a third player in this area and they will play well. They will do the right thing. Some of the state efforts right now are actually you know retrogressive. They're pushing back at reform efforts. That are coming out of local jurisdictions so so this season to embrace the grand world where everywhere. All three actors rocking. Wow america's a messy place. But but i think we need to embrace the messiness as as an avenue for a form. Not because it's sounds great because that's kind of the best we can do. Can i add a historical response to bend fascinating question. august volmer as someone who People are getting more and more these days. He's the father considered widely considered the father of modern policing in the united states. He was the police chief of the berkeley police department from started off as the marshall before they established their police department he started off as a marshal in one thousand nine zero five and i believe a few years after the that they devote established the police department he became the first chief retired in one thousand nine hundred ninety two. I believe but he had exerted influence throughout the country. Even internationally he would be invited to consult law enforcement in other countries and he's widely considered like i said as the father of modern policing and he wrote in the nineteen twenties. Starting the lightning twenties said we should have america should have centralized police like they do in europe and he argued for that from the perspective of wanting to reform police departments to make them a not reform the sense that we talk about reforming police departments. Today he wanted to clean out the departments to professionalize them to standardize training and standardized -cations to become a police officer and he thought that that kind of modernizing reform could be best done through a centralizing all operations under the federal government. I think was his preference but starting with the states and i think his motivation to centralize. Everything comes from the same a difficulty that we have right now when we're talking about police reforms to address police abuses. Which is it's hard to reform law enforcement given the reality that there's hundreds of thousands of local departments of all having their own policies and setting their own practices and policies. It's much much easier to enact reform When there's one organization. And so if i to answer your question from the perspective of history through the mouthpiece of amongst fulmer your question was with respect to at least reforming if i remember correctly your your questions with respect to reforming law enforcement is a centralized model better. I think it's definitely easier to get reforms dawn Which was the same reason. Why are wanted to centralize our law enforcement in this country. Just to add a new. Sarah was obviously exaggerated when she said hundreds of thousands of police departments. But but it's pretty amazing but there are you know over twelve thousand police. Local police departments in the united states and to be sure most police officers are not employed by those small departments but there are a lot of small departments more than two thirds of local. Police departments were having populations of less than ten thousand so that all these little departments who not only have have existed for some time but but are celebrated for their responsiveness to local concerns. And and there's obviously going to be some some truth to that but their existence been in so many ways promoted by by what the feds do to them. What the feds do for them when necessary. How do you mean that well. I mean if you're a small police department there are certain things that you can get from the pheasant on not even talking about funding. I'm talking about. You'll be able to use the federal information platform to to get information from departments around the country. You'll be able to in serious crimes. Send things off to the fbi. I don't think really small departments get a regular parade of going to the fbi national economy. But but that's an available place for police officers to go from from any department and this isn't exactly criticism of of a world in which the federal government has played a role in in maintaining the existence of local police department. But it's a potential criticism because he's certainly can see how a non-judgmental federal government and a really has been non judgmental when it comes to the quality of poisoning for the most part will enable these departments to continue even under circumstances where all sorts of vocal pathologies can develop where insufficient training may be caused by the lack of tact space where the lack of the tax base may as we saw in ferguson police department to levy on on the poor in order to fund its own operations and the states have stood by until recently for that to happen as the fat so so world in which a department of any sort can be given sustaining help by outside players is not necessarily a world that we ought to be comfortable. Then i think over time. It would be very useful to see even greater consolidation of of local police department. Say it's not exactly a trend but it's something people talked about for awhile but it's quite hard to do because local policing is thought to be a right of of any township. Yes so what's the right answer to this question. I know this is a hard like ridiculous Liam vicious question to ask a historian and a law professor or in your cases to people who are both historians in different ways and law professors. But i it seems to me that there should be a platonic right answer to the question of what should the federal relationship with local law enforcement. Be on the accountability side. And i think we're all as a society pretty comfortable with the idea that a local law enforcement agency. When it's got a really big case can rely on certain federal resources on the other hand you know if you said the words. Every time there's an officer involved shooting that would trigger a federal investigation. Which would be of a similar variety. I think to that degree of on the accountability side a similar relationship between as exists on the informational side. People would look at you. Like you're headed like was on funny and so my question is without regard to what's politically possible or what congress would do or what would be constitutional in your view. What's the right role for the federal government to play on the police accountability side. I always find it ironic to speak about ophthalmology when you're talking about criminal law or coming on horsemen which which takes its starting point a very sub optimal world. But i think it's a. It's a really fair question. Even if we can get exactly what we want there ought to be some some position were navigating to and some thought given to what that position looks like. So i don't think since. I've said before my starting point is will never get it perfect and we should embrace a degree of messiness where institutions step on one another and end political discourse in political power is access is in the wake of of institutional interactions right but just to clarify. I'm agreeing with you that that's probably the best that we can hope for is to create a kind of separation of powers model of kind of clash of institution versus institution. But i'm saying is that what you would design in the abstract if we didn't have two hundred years of history is that your vision of the good or is that merely your vision of what's the best we can do and if there's some other vision of the platonic good what does it look like. My position is somewhere in the middle in the sense that one of the pieces were weaving out is is local. Politics and luca politics is if a jurisdiction or people in the community. Don't hold official feet to the fire. None of this works either at the federal level or at the state level. So one of the things. I would hope for is the empowerment of vogel politics but but when it comes to how back empowered i do think that will always be a role for the federal government to come in where there are real failures in policing whether it comes to corruption that involves local police or constitutional abuses that implicate the boca police or even not necessarily abuses but but matters a deep concern from a federal policy perspective. That implicate local police. I i don't think we ever want to underestimate the value of the civil rights division and those who worked for it and a role they can play in holding roka police departments accountable and perhaps they will be criminal cases. They'll never be as many criminal cases as as something ought to be brought but there will be some criminal cases they will be struck to reform cases but at a certain point. We just have to recognize that the feds don't have the troops. They don't have the lawyers. They don't have the agents to do the kind of fine grain oversight that really needs to be done for any police department. And that's where the states come in. So i think there will be a role for the feds but they needs to be a lot more role for the states and that could be bureaucratized. You know you could have oversight of authorities within the state something that never really has developed in most states where where people are charged with keeping a close eye on how policing is done in various localities. Not ribbon to solving crimes there. But in a way that to some extent embrace by george floyd legislation looking to make sure that police department are certified to making sure that they have civilian accountability measures. The feds have limited coupes states. Could we have more and perhaps they should be federal funds to do that can be investigating more more shootings police involved shootings at the local level. The federal operation sometimes it would be appropriate but but at least the of spate investigation as occurs in new york and some other states already is something that we really shouldn't brace so that we're not putting all our eggs in one basket when it comes over side but we are very much recognizing that at the federal will always have a critical role to play and should be encouraged to do that. I wanna come back to the question of the role of the states in a moment. But before i do sarah do you have thoughts on. What the ideal relationship would look like. I agree with dan here. The only thing that i would add is you know to remember y leasing not just as a matter of history but as a matter of practical reality why a lot of it has necessarily has to be local in terms of information about a criminal. Activity circulates locally the on community policing today harks back at the reasons why localized placing is a good idea but mcquay spacing is also subject to a lot of abuse and we see that throughout history Especially in jim crow south where the need for national standard was pretty clear. And so. I asked dan here. More layers of Of oversight both state and federal Would be the ideal solution or arrangement. So i wanna talk about the state level because it seems to me that a lot of our discussion of state level stuff right now is being conditioned by a few states particularly minnesota where you have a problem. Local jurisdiction and an energetic state a. g. who you know is a potential oversight vacuum for that problem jurisdiction but i wonder if those cases are actually gonna prove to be the exception in the long run and the much more typical case is gonna look something like taxes or georgia where the most police friendly entities operate at the state level. That is to say. There's a lot of conservative white voters. Statewide who elect quite police friendly statewide actors particularly agents and governors and you have these relatively reform oriented or or at least open to discussion of jurisdictions with many many many more minorities than exists at the state level. So you have places like fulton county georgia or harris county in texas and the force that the state is going to access is over. Them is actually in the direction of not reforming right. Not doing things and so. I guess my question is how promising do you think. The states are as reform and accountability vehicles vis-a-vis local jurisdictions. And how often is it going to be that state. Government is actually the restraint on those things. I think you're you're highlighting the sad fact that as i've said before there are no food safe spaces. Under the trump administration the federal government step back from so much of what it did before and what it now appears ready to do when it comes to bringing stuck to reform cases had in practice cases but even there in so many of those pattern practice cases. If you look closely you see. That bear settled by. We're bro or or progressive steady officials who embrace the federal government's entry into the local round as a way to further progressive agenda. So the idea that any of this happens in a jurisdiction where the politics are really aligned against. Police reform were local federal or state. It is not gonna hack released. I don't know the tools to naked happen. I think the best we can do is is as you quite rightly pointed out. Recognize that that in over history states have not played much of a role and to the extent they have. They have played a role that has retarded police oversight or diminished accountability. But they still have the potential to play that role. And i know. I sound like an awful amelia rest embracing the status cone. I certainly don't want it to seem that way. But there are just a limited number of fires and some people would say what. I'm really doing in a quiet ways calling for the overthrow of the united states. And that's not true. You sure about that. Danny there are a lot of people who you know. Think you're the the secret director of the deep state co i embrace our institutions and the possibilities. They hold even as i recognize that the roles they actually play can be retrogressive in exactly the way that suggested. I don't have the realistic imagination to to put too weird words together to to thank of alternatives besides pushing jurisdictions to do what they can do and to hold them accountable for failing to do that and it seems to me. You're arguing something else which is creating vectors for federal involvement if it's the feds who are reform minded for state involvement where. It's the states that are reform-minded for you know. Political action of a non-legal variety through you know information if it's local police who were reform minded. They would have wandering officer information so they could not hire the direct show. Wtn's you know creating the possibility of action. at whatever level of government. It happens to have the political will to do it. Precisely the only thing i would add. Here is the continuing importance of grassroots activism that ultimately going to make a difference in recalcitrant jurisdictions it's made a difference Recently um so we start our law fair opinion with the the the new act that the senate is considering right now and then we also might a lot of the different states have been doing all prompted by the protests movements that started last year. And what's really interesting and exciting about all of this is that the protest movement has actually gotten several state governments and the federal government to consider structural changes that go against almost a hundred years of history. All hope is not lost. I don't think I think that what's what's important is just citizen of ism and keeping the issue alive and just a final point off sarah's call for sustained citizen involvement. I don't know about sarah but many of my students ask me. Are we in the middle of of the moment. Where where things will really change or the beginning of serious change when it comes to policing in america and i really worry about the idea of moment being looked for this is going to be a sustained campaign and not by by groups by legislators by woeckel departments by city officials to to make things different from the way they were and they were that way for quite some time. We're not turn on a diamond. It's going to take sustained interest on have the right kind of patients not patients that that accepts unjustice but patients that recognizes the need for effort to continue notwithstanding setbacks. I have one more question and then we can leave it on that note. Do we know what the metrics of success of that look like. Is that the is it. The number of police involved shootings or deaths is it related to the number of officers who are charged or the presence of police accountability boards. How do you know if this non moment but this sustained campaign is working. I think that's a fantastic question to put it in a slightly limited sons one of the challenges that have dog toys. Reform over time is that we have metrics for so many things Forcement and as as you often hear what you expect. You inspect in other words or what. You inspect Should expect you here at various ways but the idea that we have metrics for stops. We have metrics for all kinds of things to ensure that police are active. What do we look to to ensure the police are doing the right kind of activity or the right kind of inactivity stepping back when they should not be doing anything and that's bound to be a challenge and we do end up looking so far at qualitative measures. I don't think that that is that is a problem. Necessarily as long as we're not trying to isolate a metric and run with that. I like you're going down. I hurt you going was that it's not just one metric that we need to the way that i've been thinking about your question as as a historian twenty thirty years from now. What kinds of statistics are metrics. Would i be looking for to see if there were meaningful changes and i think what is getting at. It's not just one metric that can tell us are we headed towards the right path or not but we need several metrics. We need a metrics about How many local departments have incorporated national standards for policing We need metrics on the number of pattern and practice cases brought by state agencies and The federal doj acting will still be looking at the number of stops and frisks The number of complaints. And how they were resolved it. Just it's a kind of multitude of statistics to lookout kind of to measure the qualitative changes and see whether this has been working or not and we should become more educated consumers of the statistics. We are able to get every time. There's a police involved shooting or a killing. That is something that is problematic now being vague because sometimes it will be necessary in a in a country that is full of gun touting citizens for police officer to defend herself or offend others but every shooting is something that needs to be stared down and recognized as problematic counting them up is not the end but it should be the beginning for a focus on how we can look to de escalation how we can look to the way police officers respond and maybe even to the extent to which citizens have to be armed. But but that's a i suppose. A different issue published my book on the history of policing choirs talking to various advocacy groups about reforming traffic. Which is the site of a lot of these shootings asked me these questions. are investigative stops effective. Are these types of stops effective. And i tell them you know remake conclusions based on the little data that we have we have data from florida's one where we have good data. But we don't have good data to to know you know what what sorts of things can be doing right now and part of a lot of these reforms should be data keeping standards and regulations It's not a sexy part of police reform. But i do think a more data butter data can help us a lot. Not just with assessing whether we're doing better in reforming the police but also an understanding what more could be done. We're going to leave it there. Sarah ceo dan richmond. Thank you both for joining us. Thank you so much rhyming. Within a pleasure to talk to you. The law fair podcast is produced in cooperation with the brookings institution and this episode. It's produced as well in cooperation with the columbia law school. You need to do your part to promote the law fair podcasts. So get on it us on all socials leave a rating or review where you found us by our merch at the law. Fair store dot com the law. Fair podcast is produced an edited by gen paci howell arm. Music is performed by sophia yan. Our audio engineer this episode is n n right of goat rodeo and as always thanks for listening.

federal government george floyd national police force sarah Daniel richmond us daniel richmond sarah ceo fbi national police automobile Local police depart congress federal bureau columbia law school jim crow international association of c thorndike volmer berkeley police department Dante
Episode 131:  Domestic Violence Awareness Month Community Conversation on Police Violence

en(gender)ed

1:14:59 hr | 8 months ago

Episode 131: Domestic Violence Awareness Month Community Conversation on Police Violence

"Either podcast listeners. Welcome to engendered. The show that features stories that explore the systems practices and policies that enable gender based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it. We used gender as a lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonized hearts and minds one story at a time gender sponsored by candu. It spelled k. N. d. u. I t. and i'm your host terry. Un this year in recognition of domestic violence awareness month the gender collective hosted a series of community conversations to bring greater awareness domestic abuse and gender based violence. Today's conversation deals with the intersection of sexism. Racism rape culture and policing welcome. Everybody my name is terry your head. And i'm the founder of the gendered collective and today we're going to be having her community conversation domestic abuse and police violence Were happy to have three guests to talk about this issue. I'm a survivor. I'm an intersectional feminist. And i am also an advocate to end gender-based. It's systemic sexism In all forms texas oppression. And that's why. I founded the gender collective which is a community of survivors advocates and pro feminist allies. To come together in community advocacy and learning. And so the three pillars that we have for our work is number one. We engage in in knowledge building and knowledge sharing So we have a weekly podcast called gendered this community conversation as well as the other ones that we have scheduled for oct for domestic violence awareness. Month is also part of that. We have a platform where members it can engage share and house questions. The second pillar. Is we gaijin community chair community healing so we have weekly survivors offering support groups that are based off of the feminist consciousness raising classes and workshops from the battered women's movement and we also engage in advocacy to end sexism. And to increase accountability around sexist oppression violence and exploitation So there's a working group that we have comprised at international members who are working on course to control what the gender collective is about now just to sort of frame the expectations for this conversation and future ones what these community conversations are is an opportunity hopefully for survivors and advocates practitioners researchers. Everybody who's working the space and cares about the issue to come together. Sure experiences via source of inspiration in hopefully learning. They are not definitive in the answers that we offer What i say today. And i might be very strongly advocate for or against a particular position. I'm open to change and And so it is not a place where we are setting rules and agendas for how things should be in a final way so please please keep that in mind. The three speakers and panelists we have today are efi's robbie had their make william and the net chelsom so i'm gonna give everybody a brief opportunity to just introduce themselves directly so we're gonna start with efi i So my name's efi sarabi. Thank you for having me. I've been a police officer since two thousand eight. I was hired. When i was twenty seven years old and i worked in the same division from two thousand eight or two thousand nine on main until two thousand eighteen. When i went off sick. I worked in the same division the entire time and throughout the years i came to realize that policing has serious systemic sexual abuse problem racism problem and you know it set it was. It was a tough ten years to be nine environment. And you know every time we spoke up everytime myself and other officer colleagues brought this issues forward Lever told the same thing over and over again you know think about the ramifications of careers about your future these people you work with so there always that fear of of reporting stuff and that was one of the reasons why women don't feel police women don't feel safe is that we know that there is very little avenue if any for us to get support when we come forward so two thousand eighteen i follow the human rights complaint and I've been speaking basically publicly. And i've been meeting other women in policing across canada and in other walks of life their career's going through the same issues. So i've been very fortunate to meet some amazing women and so we can help each other. Get through this. And and hopefully. I'll make change and demand for change in the next. Is heather please terry. Thanks for having me. I'm a police officer. I work at the same organization that epi works out which is in charge. Oh for the police service there. I joined policing in two thousand and four worked for the national police force for the rcmp. Originally and then continued my career mostly with the toronto police service. And i've been a police officer for fifteen years in two thousand and fourteen. I left my service in one on a medical leave due to the toxic workplace and experiences. That i had from colleagues supervisors in my workplace throughout my career and due to the experiences that i had wires leading work. Afterwards i filed the human rights complaint that i fought alongside with very experienced lawyers. I'm with regards to sexual harassment sexual abuse in the workplace on systemic toxic Replace out in policing women and recently after six years of just In june this year we won the case of us instead of sexual abuse in the workplace in so there was changes implemented and there was a lot of awareness brought that decision i worked in different Units within the organization. I had experienced in homicide drug squad and in the intelligence bureau and With all that experience in all the other women that i saw going through similar abuse. I decided to continue my career now as an advocate for women's rights and an ally to humanity for others to help make a difference in other people's lives so that we can all collectively have a better tomorrow in q. Heather and finally ninette low everybody and thanks for joining us today. Minus ninette cheese him and i live in colorado and in two thousand fifteen i began relationship with a law enforcement officer and it was a relationship that was filled with emotional psychological and verbal abuse and after i reported him to his chief of police i was able to finally begin the healing process part of that healing process involved learning as much as i can about police culture speaking with law enforcement about police culture and officer involved domestic violence awareness and researching everything i possibly could about domestic violence and speaking to advocate survivors etc. That started me on a journey of deciding that. I'm not going to be silent. And i'm going to speak out and that's what i do now. In addition to a corporate job day to day job career. That i have i am a public speaker. And i educate advocates law enforcement and the general public about involved domestic violence with an emphasis also on the verbal and psychological tactics that my perpetrator used on me and the tactics that abusers use in general. So here we are. And thank you terry for giving all of us this opportunity to speak today and cuna net. So we're going to get started with. Just framing the problem. I don't know how many of us in this conversation are aware of this. But i i became introduced to this problem when i entered when i interviewed for zara. Tourists thomas for the podcast. And i was looking into the statistics around domestic abuse amongst law enforcement and apparently law enforcement is the sector with the highest rates of domestic violence. There was a study in nineteen ninety one by arizona. State university that estimated based on based on its results that at least forty percents of the Law enforcement engages in domestic abuse and this was based on questions where the term of violence or behaving violently wasn't even defined and so if we extend the definition of abuse to beyond just the physical incident model. It's likely that it's much higher than forty percent. So i wanna start with the net in terms of your own personal experience. You were involved with an officer in an officer involved domestic violence relationship. Can you tell us briefly some of the ways in which he engaged in abusive behavior. Because most of it as you explained in our podcast interview was not physical cracked some of the tactics that he used on me. Were commanding tone of voice. Also a commanding presence and that was exhibited through his body language. Much like law enforcement officers are trained to have a commanding presence when they're on scene to investigate an incident He wrote that tactic home. Some of the other behaviors that he engaged in were were controlling behaviors course control and a few examples of that would be early on in the relationship trying to gauge my boundaries. So that would be things. Like i drink almond milk and not dairy milk. So he was very vocal at at at boise his displeasure at new drinking dairy milk in trying to get a swit- or almond milk and trying to get me to switch to jerry melt Examples like didn't load the dishwasher correctly. I didn't hang my bathroom towels correctly. I wasn't very good at giving directions. He nitpicked everything that i did. Some the other behaviors that he exhibited is blaming others for a lot of the problems that he experienced during the course of his life. And i picked up on that in realized that there's one common denominator in in all of this in. That was him some of the other behaviors that he used. Were gas lighting behaviors for those of us joining today. Who don't understand what gas lighting it is. It is distorting it was distorting my perception of reality. So if i said the sky was blue he would have a way of manipulating that for me to look up at the sky and say yeah maybe maybe the sky isn't blue. Maybe it's another caller and and for those of you who have been in a relationship with gas lighting. You'll understand exactly weren't talking about. And eventually he did start to escalate and some Some physical traits that that are physical. Harm that concerned me. Such as pounding his fists on a strain well for example which concerns me so just a lot of course of control a lot of a commanding tone and blame and trying to switch situations back onto me to make me feel like things were my folks when they were really truly his doing so. In the context of a regular relationship many people might interpret these behaviors as quote unquote harmless and obviously in the we who are advocates of Reframing domestic abuse as course of control in a non physical incident only model perspective. We understand that. That's not the case but with this additional layer of knowing that your partner was a police officer and carried a gun. What was that like in terms of the impact on you and the kinds of thoughts and self policing behavior that you might have prescribed as a way to manage the situation. Well in the very beginning. I speak about this. Whenever i give a presentation. I initially placed a lot of trust in him because he was a law enforcement officer when when he told me in the beginning that he was a law enforcement officer and so i think as a result of that i let my guard down a little bit because he was a law enforcement officer. And you know i. It's it's it's a strange feeling when you're being perpetrated against but you don't realize you're being perpetrated against and it's especially in nursing when it's a law enforcement officer because they do have access to a weapon and you know there's intimidation factor. You know. who am i gonna talk to. Who's gonna believe me. Who can i reach out to if the incident if any incidents needed to be reported that we're in his his town his his neck of the woods. Who's gonna believe me. It's a small rural community. So anyone that's gonna show up most likely it's going to be who he leads on his force. He was the second in command at this particular agency. So who's gonna believe me. So that was a fear factor. Another piece that is always intimidating. Is if you do need to leave if you wanna leave if you want to end the relationship if you want to escape along officers have access to a lot of information traceable information so that was also a concern especially after the relationship ended. I don't personally believe that he was stalking me. But i'll never know. Because i'll never know because he's that good at the seat in deflections and whatnot so it adds another layer of worry win your perpetrators actually in law enforcement and cuna annette. So just the interpersonal setting. Let's talk about the institutional setting efi. What you and. I spoke about the experiences that you had. They were initially things that you discovered through your partner and through a group chat that he was part of so. Can you talk about that. And what what it was that he discovered and shared with you. My fiancee works on the same shift and the same station downtown with me. He was part of a group shot and like group. Chats are a common thing with officers and mostly it's like a very tricky thing so you know officers do all the time and I wasn't part of this group. Chat the specific group chat. I m my fiance was part of it. And i don't know most people that have been on group chats with know that a lot of the conversations you don't see because you're either busy and it's always people talking so one day he came to me and said there's a good chance that you know about but this is this is what they're saying about you so he showed me the message that that was discussed between these fourteen officers About myself and so it was really. It was disheartening to see that the people i worked with known for years. And you know you. You go to their weddings. You see their kids are born there. You know it's like a family thing right like you. You feel like you're part of the team and to see the way they were speaking about myself and my colleagues and just members of the public and the that were sharing amongst each other and posting it was very very disheartening. To see and it was very alarming. Because you know when you see that the group of guys that you work with are the way they speak a really affects your the you see them and how they treat the public and so that was a hard thing for me to realize that i was working with these guys on. This is how they were really treating us on and everybody else anc you and heather. Your experience utah. You shared with me your experience around. How your colleagues Behavior not just towards one another and to the women in the department were but also is indicative based on their response to domestic violence and sexual assault incidents in how they're responding to the public Was in your words. You know something that the public would be shocked about. Can you describe some of the things that your fellow officers would say or do when responding to sexual assault and gender based crimes in for one example are a few examples I was detective constable in the detectives office at the time. And i was working with male supervisors and win there was sexual assaults investigations. That were being conducted. We would induct interviews with the sexual assault victims in their survivors. In afterwards after the interviews there would would-be comments made as to whether or not the victim of the survivor was telling the truth and the only part of the investigation that had commenced at this point was the interview so there had been no evidence collected. There had been no other parts of the investigation that collaborate someone's integrity whether or not someone has something happened had not been conducted and they were making comments that they were the comments were she had faked brass. You probably deserved it or she was asking for it. Or the comment was i. Don't believe her right off the hop just because they didn't believe her from whatever symptoms at they were showing at that time that they felt that they didn't believe her likely didn't have the background and the experience and the knowledge to wet symptoms present trauma. In what do not end. So you know comments when a female would come in to make report one of my abusers sept up to me and was commenting on her physical appearance in what he liked about her physical appearance. And i remember another situation where there was a young young survivors. Speaking about her experience about sexual assaults and my supervisor had went back into the room and basically read her herat's and cautioned her Something that were trained not to do is If they're making false allegations that they would be charged so my experiences and as i was going through my own experience of sexual harassment and i was sexually assaulted by one of my bosses. The response was These women were to be believed. They were called dame's derogatory names. And there's also a checklist. After interview is conducted through in canada called by class that has to be submitted so that we can track known or unknown suspects in sexual abuse or sexual assaults and they would complain about having to fill this report out so there was a lack of motivation to want to pursue conduct these investigations all surrounding all of it was so concerning on a larger scale than just that that one person that we spoke to. How many times has this happened to someone when they don't even know when they've come to us with courage to ask for help and this is the response. They're getting behind closed. Doors with police. Officers not understanding what trauma is for sexual abuse in how that affects people versus different other kinds of abuse or different other kinds of harm. That's conducted that they respond to that. This was last than important than other offenses so you. You mentioned trauma. That's something that's been covered. Very broadly in the media for example unbelievable is a docudrama. i guess i'll net flicks About a serial rapist and shows very clearly how women are not only disbelieved but that they're penalized for potentially in the view of law enforcement Making false reports and so the the. There's a common argument that if only police officers or if only xyz groups of people were trained they would do better. So are there. instances. I'll pose this to you know All of our panelists are there. Instances where you know. That training has lead to better outcomes That if they understood trauma better that they would be more empathetic for example or at least not. Make you jump to this stereotype. So any of our panelists on feel free to to answer this. I'll speak briefly about it just in my own experience having going gone through what i've gone through with my health and Plus your attic stress in all of the other things that went along with that. Is that the more i personally learned about trauma. The more i was mental health more. I was able to understand others mental health and their trauma and their symptoms and their experiences and what affects them on a daily basis. And what they're presenting to me and how it's being perceived by others and so just you're my own experience because i know that through policing we aren't i wasn't trained to the degree that we should be trained with regards to mental health and how it affects someone and What that truly looks like. I mean ar experiences police officers has a lot to do with physical training rather than mental health training with anybody else like to answer before we continue. I agree with heather on that point. The more you you educate and train people the more. They're able to to deal with issues. And when they're facing those circumstances so training and education has to continue. It's very important that we continue because times are changing people. People are changing ideas. It's always changing so we have to continue training but there's also the aspect of transparency and accountability. That's very important that goes hand in hand because at the end of the day there are people that are not that are doing things on purpose that are causing harm purpose and so if you're not holding anyone accountable and if you're not doing it transparency for everyone to see the consequences on these actions than that's the would then we're faced with just training after training and nothing changes so to go on to the next part so that. Let's let's talk about the responses to each of your experiences Ninette at some point. You decided to break up with your partner and report Can you tell us about that. Experience what it was like what you were considering weighing the pros and cons of of what made you decide to actually move forward rather than keep quiet well. After the relationship ended in september. Of twenty. Fifteen i as i mentioned earlier once it was related to me by a friend that what had been happening to me was considered domestic abuse. I was stunned and shocked. And i started researching as much as i could about domestic violence and that led me to being curious about rates of domestic violence within law enforcement. So that me. On a whole other whole other journey. Learning all i could and as i began processing not only what had happened to me as far as the domestic abuse is concerned but also started learning and understanding the high rates of devi within the law enforcement community and hearing from other survivors of dvd. And a couple of female officers actually who had experienced officer involved domestic violence at the hand of their their partners who were also in law enforcement. I really started to to understand the totality of this problem. And as i mentioned earlier i decided not to be silent and so after about five or six months after the relationship ended. I had been therapy. I was doing all that. I could to heal and to move forward in my life and i was stopped and i couldn't figure out why i was stuck in could move forward and i hit actually just to vent had had months ago. Started writing an email letter to his chief of police. And i had no intention of sending it at the time that i that i wrote it and i filed it away in my in my email file in about five or six months of you know just being in at one point. Got angry at what he had done to me. I pulled up the email that i had written to the chiefs. The draft and i made a few revisions and i hit sant. I did not wake up that morning deciding to hit. Send on that on the email button. And i tell you what i refer to this. Whenever i speak the minute i hit that send button. I felt the sense of relief. And i thought empowerment and to me. That was my justice. That was me holding him accountable. And when i hit the send button i was happy. I was climbing. Okay and to my surprise and amazement about a week later in investigator from a neighboring district. Attorney's office actually reached out to me and asked me. If i wanted to talk and i said yes yes i would like to talk. And i met with that investigator in sporran hour and a half and he recorded me. And i prepped a an incident list. I call it of about sixty four individual incidents of verbal and psychological abuse that he inflicted on me and i left a copy behind for the investigators file and when that meeting was over i felt this incredible sense of relief. I felt like the weight of the world. Lifted off my shoulders and for me personally. That is exactly what. I needed to move forward. That did it speaking to that investigator. And i remember driving back to work that morning and feeling relieved and feeling like this is over. This is it. That's what i need. Was there any sense of fear that accompanied those other emotions. No no not. At that point time. I had already started to speak publicly about what he had been doing to me. And enough people in my personal world knew who he is and any any sense of fear that i would have felt flew by the wayside because i felt confident i powered and i knew i was doing the right thing for me. Okay so that contrast obviously for someone who actually works what their abuser or their harasser for those folks like f. e. and heather who had to go back to work and deal with it every day different set of consequences of so efi. You shared that. Your fiancee was the first person to introduce you to sort of the the the web of on the ecosystem of meal entitlement and sexist and misogynistic behavior not just towards the public but obviously also towards their colleagues So how did that play out in terms of its impact on your fiance. Because he obviously weren't arguably call him a whistle blower by having you know by by telling on his buddies. How did it impact him And that what subsequently happened when you reported so when i reported in when i reported in two thousand eighteen september on that's when the report came out and he was basically very very well liked he he was an auxiliary officer before he got hired. He knew he knew the officers who got along with. Everybody played hockey and they loved him. Great guy you know. He very level person. As soon as my human rights report came out within a few days. Nobody talked to him at work. He was sharp whose isolated he was may be called him a rach they he wasn't he didn't even feel safe going to the bathroom oneself. He nobody talked to him. He wasn't invited to the christmas party and short for people that here this. It sounds like you know okay. It's not a big deal you can get over it. You can get posted but when you're in an environment where you depend on people as a young officer. He has less time than i do. He was very very badly affected by that To a point where he was having suicidal ideologies that i felt such fear of leaving him to go into the grocery store. I was so much fear of coming home and finding him. God forbid like dad and you hear other officers that are going through things and you hear other wise or girlfriends or grieving on family members. Talk about they didn't realize that they didn't see it coming. But i saw dot com and it was scary so as a police officer someone. That's on the inside. It's not much more scarier because we know we've seen our. I have two friends of mine. Committed suicide. And i saw how things just unfolded over the years with their trauma with their stress and their abuse. So this was really alarming from me and it was so hard to see them. Treat him that way because he had nothing to do with anything other than just show me what was saint what was being said behind my back but the way they treated him. It was like a double betrayal for me. It was so much harder for me to deal with what he was going through than what i was going through. The deal was unbearable. All factors played a huge. It's a huge part of the problem. Thank you and could you talk a little bit. More about the human rights tribunal that you brought your case too and its impact on you. Obviously you were basically shouldering this double burden feelings of how it was impacting him as well as carrying your own grief and trauma around the experience. So what happened with a tribunal on so they haven't assessed the case yet is two years later. I have spent over sixty thousand dollars out of pocket for for human rights tribunal. That hasn't even started. I had to pay out of pocket for lawyers. I have been getting seventy five percent of my salary. I'm not getting full full salary. And most of that is going to lawyer's fees legal defense and stuff and so they drag it out day just waste time. They keep and they have all the money in the world. They have taxpayers pocket purse. They can just take out money and pay for big lawyers on so this is like so many layers of issues that we have to deal with. You know financially mentally family. My family is affected by this. My fiance's family is severely affected by this and there seems to be nowhere to for for us to go for help in q a so heather in your own experience. You talked about The lack of disciplinary action and This trend in a way. We wanna call it that of people who are power some of who may have been accused perpetrators for either moving up or two different positions where they're still employed in policing and up meaning. They're promoted so not only are. Is there not a negative consequence that there's a positive consequence so just default on what effie said. There's this financial costs. So can you talk about with regard to your case. Why is it that there is this financial burden that the victim has to shoulder herself. Rather at who's is paying actually for the alleged perpetrator so when i came forward and decided that i wanted to go ahead with the application. For the human rights tribunal. I had asked. Our association arch are police association which is like a union and they had stated that they would not support me financially with regards to human rights and so they have experienced a decades in more than me in policing they also have a history of family members that have also been in policing for decades before me as well and so it was a choice that they had and so they have this discretion that they can say yes or say no to where they decide to allocate the money with which the association provides support to and so the officer is mainly in our organization that get support our officers that have been charged criminally or they've been facing some sort other workplace problems not about female officer problems that that were experiencing so in the past. Lobsters have just prior to my experience in going forward. There's a few male officer that was leaving the job and she had a lot of female officers take Nondisclosure agreements so that they financially cannot go through with a standing up for themselves without the the support of the association and so in my experience. There's my financial statement. Was you know above a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That i paid a pocket and you know that's the example of what it takes or what it took. In my circumstances there is thirty. Police officers that they put on a stand against me to which were not found to be credible i was but again that is the example of why women won't come forward. Is that this is what they're going to face. Because i had no support at all everyone was too fearful to speak up about the truth about it. Fear of reprisal within the service so just to go over is that we don't have the support it's decades of this culture flourishing in the way that they've liked to suppress swimming from being able to change the way that things are the status quo but A lot of the power in control comes from you know those that are at the top of our organization and they did move people that were involved in my case to positions as to where they could have further power and control over my career over the situation to further harm me and these individuals who were moved up they were involved in your case and a guessing they're stolen in those positions. There's no accountability still at this point for them. Even after the human rights tribunal after. I've been found. Credible though. Is that stayed in policing didn't retire. Since the case are still in positions of power are still in positions of control in which they have access and have used against me my personnel location and various other ways in which to intimidate me and my family though actually recently there was a counselor within our city that decided to start involving the city with regards to the accountability of service since there has been zero accountability with regards to what's happened since the decision. Come out yeah. And and i just want to highlight for our attendees that in the resort tour thomas episode. We actually shared resources where there was an article about the incidence and prevalence of domestic violence amongst police officers amongst law enforcement add. The article highlights that the lack of disciplinary measures is so severe that there are so many other disciplinary problems. That police officers do actually get citations for negative consequences for the fall above Domestic violence and they include drug use theft embezzlement another words false statements or perjury assault and all of those actually have a higher incidence of negative outcomes than domestic violence which falls below all of that. Which i think is very indicative of how women and sexual assault and sexual violations are viewed in this culture. So let's talk about some of these structural impediments to accountability. that exists. one of them is data. I think f you talked about the lack of transparency. Part of the reason that there's a lack of transparency is the intersection of what normally exists in domestic violence. Which is the fear of reporting. We all know that when there is an experience of domestic abuse or course control that there's very low rates of reporting because of what the potential consequences are of engaging in criminal justice and all the other systems that you might have to engage in but there is also another complication in data which has apparently that in the us at least in nine hundred ninety six there was an amendment to a federal law that prohibits anyone convicted of misdemeanor domestic abuse from owning a gun. And so this amendment is very valuable. Obviously from women who are in relationships with partners with guns but if your partner is a police officer who can't use a gun to go to work that obviously if you report your partner or if you report of anyone in that situation who has to use a gun for work there's going to be greater risk of retaliation and if you're in the relationship itself there might be economic considerations around your partner not be able to provide for the family. So that's one reason. I want to go back to heather efi with regard to the role of unions as gatekeepers after you talked about the cost of trying to achieve accountability love for you to delve into more. The cost of just trying to be healthy and stay and be employed still and what the role the union plays in. If at all it advocating for your interests as victim over the perpetrators so personally. I have gotten zero support from the union and from the moment i came forward with the reports. I had notified my union. The president two. I included him in the email and i told him the situation and i asked them for help and over and over again there was no help. They just don't care to how women union board is all men all white men. There's one woman. I believe she's a civilian but it's not enough. No have enough women on the union words. We don't have enough. We don't have any women looking after our interests. Sexual violence is not sexual. Violence is not a priority for them. Frankly so the last thing i said to my to my union was i need help. I cannot pay my bills. Pay my mortgage pay my lawyers and keep on top of everything this is this is just is too much for me and the response was just go to human rights. Just go to x. And you know it's the same complaint so we don't wanna do a double thing and so that's the last thing they said to me. And they know that human rights tribunal pigs years being known like heather mcwilliams. Said you know seven years later. All these officers lied. All these officers were being dishonest and the fact that has on our mental health is so severe. And just so that just before that you know that the union doesn't have any support for women so we have that much more offcicals in front of us and personally and my colleagues who were forced to resign. Last you're with nondisclosure agreements. None of us got help from our union. Not one of us and right. Now you're on leave. Isn't that right right now. i'm off sick. i've been diagnosed with. Ptsd you know and it's been a fight. It's been a fight. We are constantly fighting. We're constantly trying to get help from our organization and they expect to recover and expect you to come back to work. And you know they don't they. It's all lip service and all the things you know pictures. They taken all the ribbons on the pink shorts they were but it's all a facade. There's no help and it's it's very it's very difficult place to work and it's very difficult situation to be in so have there. You had talked about in terms of institutional gatekeepers in your experience. Recall the incident with the nurse. Who basically blamed you for not knowing. Better that the course. This was something you were going to experience at at reinforcing. The culture of misogyny. Can you talk about what happened with that nurse. So i went up work and i was now speaking to a doctor with regards to what i had experienced. She had advised that it was in my best interest for my hell to not attend the workplace. And so at this time my workplace was coming to my house so there was police officers coming to my home. Even one of my abusers had been sent to my direct supervisor's to check on me. And i was already off work with my doctor. There was a medical note santana. Everyone had the information that needed to have it but they insisted on coming to my home and harassing me. And then they continued to send letters in the mail ordering need to the medical bureau at headquarters in. If i didn't attend. I would be disciplined. I also was told by union. They would have my benefits in my pay cut off did not attend so going against my doctor's order. Ns was when my post traumatic stress was simply at. It's worst when i needed support. They did not give it to me. And i was ordered under our policies and procedures. I have to speak to the nurse. At least so i was speaking to the nurse and when i was speaking to the nurse the nurse told me that at this was a man's world. I should have known this when i joined policing what else did i expect. And that if i didn't listen to her we're going to make my life worse and so when we had the hearing this nurse had left the service and they could no longer find her to be able to testify regarding information and no one's been held accountable for the words that she had said when i needed support most when my mental health was added at point of needing that those words of encouragement to get better. They weren't there she asked me. What else was i going to do with my life. I was too young to work. And so she put all the blame on me and not on the situation as to what it was. Okay for those of the audience. Who isn't really who hasn't heard of the different cases in the public around being had there's a law that allows police officers to hold someone in custody and if you engage in rape or sexual assault as long as the police officer says that there is consent. It's legal believe it or not in many many states across the country in the us at least thirty states that is the case. So it's not surprising that when you have that law still on the books that within the culture itself you're going to be experiencing you know people who are the nursery you experienced gatekeepers of that culture. I think she was being actually being intimidated by my supervisors by the ones in power that renamed in this complaint. We don't have those laws here. So i really do believe that. She was being intimidated that possibly she was anyways. Intimidation you know regarding officer involved domestic violence victims. It's not unusual at all when there's an incident in officer show up on saying it's not abnormal. All for an officer to pull a victim aside and say you know if you move forward with this if you if charges pressed we move forward with this. He's gonna lose his pension. He's gonna lose his paycheck. He's gonna lose his weapon. So harry you're going to pay your bills. How are you going to support your kids so there is intimidation that happens on scene with many. Oh i d be victims and that is why a lot of victims. Don't move forward that fear and intimidation peace and it's a way of silencing women just like the nba it's a way of silencing women so we don't speak out and i know for fact that those same insinuations are also made when officers are responding to domestic abuse incidents and the perpetrator. The alleged perpetrator is not a police. Officer officers are still going to be asking. What are you going to support yourself. Who's gonna pay the bills. Cetera et cetera. And so this is a great segue into some of the solutions that have been offered in the domestic violence community as well as and police reform community and one of them is. There was an article in his magazine. That's stated that what part of what we need and policing to address the fight to end domestic violence as gender parity so in other words the more women we have an police policing the better it will be so efi was talking about efi both and and heather how their experienced help them be more. Empathetic better understand symptoms of trauma in the people that they are responding to but the net. I want to ask you this concept of more women. has shown up in a book by an australian journalist named just hill who we also had on the podcast episode. She wrote a book. That's just been released in the. Us called see what you made me do. And in that book she talks about this idea of in the global south women's police stations so instead of treating domestic violence domestic piece. I something that needs to have a remedy where there's an arrest potentially and a conviction that the goal is providing signals accountability in some ways and hoping to have an ongoing mechanism for developing or enhancing survivor. safety plan. so the survivor basically has relationship with the women police officers who check on them regularly and have a relationship and kind of signal literally or figuratively to the perpetrator. Who might still live in that home. I have an eye on you So if you were in a situation where you were living with someone or in a relationship still with a officer is not something that would help you be more inclined to reach out and look to law enforcement for help. I think initially it would feel like a safe place. A trusting place trusting relationship. And it's an interesting model. It's an interesting concept. I would love to see more more women involved in the profession. I think there are so many benefits to that in many ways in all communities at the end of the day you know beyond that that one on one relationship with that female law enforcement officer moving forward through the legal system. How is that relationship it's beneficial. But how is that relationship going to carry forth beneficial to me getting through the legal system and being able to trust that legal system beyond my relationship with that female law enforcement officer. And i certainly think that it's easier to speak to feel enforcement officer when it's domestic violence rape sexual assault. I certainly think that that is a more comforting talk to have rather than speaking one on one with a male detective or amount officer. Okay thank you. So i'd like to address another policy proposal that i'm sure many of us have read about a specially post. George floyd and the strengthening of the black lives matter movement. There's term that has been very prominent in the media called quote. De-fund the police. I know that f. e. has has shared with me she'd rather the turkey perform the gleese so either way just to give some background for the attendees defined the police or reform. The police movement is about reallocating direct policing resources to strengthening in particular communities of color. Who have been over policed and so it may include allocating resources so that you're adding the presence of police in schools but increasing monies for social workers and other kinds of crisis services repair services to be those first responders when there are incidents of crises that might have a mental health considerations or behavioral consideration. There's also the possibility that the reduction in money might help to and enforcement of minor it is people have suggested legalizing marijuana possession and distribution for example so these are just a few of the high level ideas that have come out of defunding. The police and i wanna turn to heather now with regard to your or outcome which came out in june. If you can talk about with regard to societal change in policy. If any of the outcomes that you got from your case have been things that you would recommend. In addition to defend the police options or if you have objections or additions to make with regard to feel Those might be modified. I'll just share with you. The m the orders were from the tribunal it was developed a human rights strategy retain an external expert on policing and human rights to conduct additional training for supervisor specifically provide annual training for all officers on sexual harassment human rights in poison work environments chakma report on internal human rights complaints as this had not been done in the past so in my experience through this hearing of six years You know i had the opportunity to look outside of the organization itself and really understand in see a different perspective as to where we are failing ourselves and the public and so In my experience is that you know just even listening to the testimony of the officers on the stand was that they really had no idea. Some of them that are workplace had was poisoned. Work in place workplace. What sexual harassment was. They had become so used to the culture in the in the experiences that they were having that it had been normalized so the leaders at the top that have also gone through. This culture also have been normalized to the culture and don't have that outside perspective as to what is truly needed to effect change within internally and externally for the public and in it's not about ego. It's not about saying you don't know how to police or make changes or differences in people's lives. It's about bringing in the experts who understand problems both individually and collectively as a society as a whole for our health and well-being. You know we're gonna turn now to the question and answers by the audience. And i'm gonna just to follow up with a question with efi of listener previously asked. Why did you go into police saying. And i'd like to have you share with our attendees. What your personal reason was in what you knew about it before you started. Oh I come from a country where i grew up in war and and we left when i was young and we came to canada with my parents and my siblings and i saw the struggle as my mom was going through an immigrant. I saw the hardship that we were going through an isolated strong woman she was in she was still inspiring and was so amazing and so strong and joey's had Morals she had the good morals to do the right thing and she taught us the same. So those are some of the things that i relate to policing is that those characters and those those qualities and so. When my mom passed away i was. I was nineteen years old and before she passed away. I always talk about me. Wanted to be a police officer and she was always worried about the safety aspect. You know like. I don't want to get hurt. And all that. After she passed away. I had to follow my dreams and i wanted to make her proud so i became a police officer. You know i wanted to. I wanted to be a strong woman. I wanted to to help other women to help victims domestic violence victims children. That are being sexually abused. I wanted to do so much for the community. And you know there's nobody can really tell you what's going to happen when you go into policing nobody can warn you about this and you can't say to somebody will why don't you just leave. It takes so much for me to become a police officer dedicated so much to it. I love it so much better from me. Walking away is not an option. If i were to walk away. I'm failing everybody. I'm failing my colleagues failing women the public you know and it just it will just continue. It's not gonna stop if we walk away if every woman walks away. Who's facing these issues than is just continue and it's going to affect the public and it's gonna affect my communities my family my future so that's one of the reasons why i came forward knowing that it could possibly end my career but i didn't want to leave if i was gonna leave. I didn't want to leave it. Worst the worst than we had found it. So that's what it meant to me to be a police officer right. And i wanted to add a lot of people who are in the prison. Abolition and On the extreme end of the defunding police movement where they really do want to eliminate cursory state and they wanna eliminate policing their arguments that we don't need a criminal. Justice system is we have resources. Invested into helping communities. Economically thrive at grow is that we can't trust policing because of its racist manifestations will arguments also been made about the healthcare system. We had interviewed recently with author jennifer block and journalists who talked about the healthcare disparities between men and women but also of course between women and women of color being negatively impacted and if that system also has had terrible abuses perpetrated by doctors against black americans and black women. Nobody's saying hey let's defend the healthcare sector right. We want reform it and so. I think that there's room for having this conversation and fixing what isn't working and so to that. Let's turn to the questions michelle. I've asked michelle to sort of aggregate the questions. Certain themes so. Maybe if you have a question that we can give towards the net feel free to ask another question that has come up around accountability with police officers and how are. They held accountable for their actions. So can i ask you know your experience. Actually i think is so unusual. Won't it's it's such the exception. Not the rule. Was there anything in particular. What did you do differently. Was it the people that were involved. How was it that you were able to get an outcome where you're actually having conversations with police officers. They did an investigation and there was a remedy. That's i don't know if you find it satisfactory but at least wasn't hopefully unsatisfactory right well for me. I was vindicated. And i felt like in my case justice was served. He did not physically harm me. What he did was cursor control. Which in the united states of america is not a criminally punishable offense the verbal on the psychological piece so just having that audience with an investigator via the chief of police which is enough for me. Everyone's version of justice and accountability is different when it comes to domestic and so we need to respect that of each individual survivor and it is not unusual for officers to not be legally held accountable and that is surprising to a lot of people in the general public. Who don't understand what happens behind the scenes that they don't understand when unions get involved how they protect for lack of a better word. A lot of these officers who are accused Not just domestic violence or sexual assault embezzlement etc. There was a case recently with l. a. p. d. where a union actually decided not to back up officer who was accused of fondling a dead body in a war. He was caught on camera his own police cameras bodycam caught and the union. That's one of the rare cases where a union has decided. We're not going to help you weren't going to back. We're not support you. But it's not unusual like i said for intimidation tactics to be employed so that survivors back off. It's not unusual because it is a patriarchal institution Stomach within law enforcement for women to not be believe for women to be stood down for accountability to not be achieved. I guess what. I'm trying to say is extremely rare and has to be an extremely awful case for a perpetrator to be held accountable in the legal system within law enforcement and for oh i deviates extremely rare so yes my. My situation was rare. I think that it's because In part because iran ran into the right chief of police who was his boss and He's he's he's young. He's younger so i think that he has probably a different perspective. He hasn't been in the business for thirty forty years and has that that ingrained mentality was younger. Chief of police. I also think. Looking back i intuitively fouts during the relationship that there were other things going on with him within that department He was very paranoid. He was always paranoid that he was going to get fired. He would complain to me. That a lot of his officers didn't like him. And so i think my peace mike complaint was just a tiny piece of other things that were happening in that department concerning him. I would not be surprised if he had a file full of of citizen complaints. Because he would tell me you know a citizen cold because he was too groff to mean to to a citizen and they took offense to that so there were other things going on with him. And i think that's ultimately what that was his demise. He's no longer with that department. By the way he separated from that department. July twenty seventeen. And i believe that there were other things going on with him so if i may it. Sounds like one of the suggestions that you have and the other panelists have offered as well. Is that accountability requires that people speak up and the more people who speak up the more quote unquote evidence or documentation. There is against someone that will make it hard data. That will make it hard for people. Ed power to ignore. Does that sound right. Wanna forced anyone to report. That's an individual decision. Safety always has to first priority but the true more people have to speak up and that's the only way we're going to get things stuck putting files that's the only way we're going to create awareness. That's the only way we're going to. We have to demand change. We have to demanded anymore so Next question please. Michelle right along with talking about the union's question came up with was what are some of the steps of the footsteps in changing the dynamic with the powers that union have with as regards misogyny. So have there were f. You probably know more about this either of you. There is a decision right now in the supreme court. It's a weeber vs toronto hydro. This decision was in nineteen ninety five and basically if you have a union it says you have to go through a union. You have to go to tribunal. I have to go through them via grievance whatever you have to do it has to be through the union so we cannot go to court. If we were sexually assaulted we have to go through. The union filed a grievance and all the other stuff. And that's the problem. That's what's missing is that we are being or complaints are being taken apart at the initial stages. It's not an unbiased investigation. So we have that extra obstacle in front of us okay so this just as a reminder to the attendees and heather are based in canada but certainly in the us there are two guests a state this civic and union specific rules with regard to how these kinds of complaints would be Respond to chew. And i wanted to give an an update from the twenty eight gene. At least in new york city there is an organization that is like a hybrid a government entity independent entity called. The new york city civilian complaint review board and it wasn't until twenty eighteen that they started investigating complaints of sexual assault and harassment by which previously was being referred by the board to the internal affairs bureau. So it's you know what both i've heard. Fema heather say you can't have people policing themselves. You need to have independent as okay. How would you like to add anything to what he said. The as the association isn't being compliant. Our option is to go to the labor board into make a complaint about them not assisting us and so. I think the bigger picture here is that term for decades. This is how how they did it. This is how they felt was the best way to protect. The majority of their members of their male members at the culture's changed and more officers. Don't wanna work in a culture that is negative and so eventually the cycle will have to have to a full circle where the majority of officers have had enough of this negative culture and the associations can see that santa behind good officers in the end will be the best practice You know for less work for them. It might be hard now but in the end doing. What's right now. we'll eventually get easier. Okay thank you so in the remaining time i would like to have each of the panelists gives some final thoughts and maybe what we could do is michelle if you can give some high level questions that remain. That haven't been answered. Um and they can maybe choose to answer one of them in their remaining thoughts. And what i'd like to do also invite fema and heather to be on the podcast into any question that has not been asked already a were happy to ask them during our interviews In the podcast. And you can look for that In an upcoming episode. So michelle if you can just read out loud the remaining questions or themes and then we'll have each of the panelists close so One asked to do one around. Transformative models are justice What are your thoughts on. Formative models of justice specifically for sexual and domestic violence. Do you think that the state divesting sexual violence and domestic violence cases away from a male dominated force is necessary. Okay are there any other questions besides and one centers around the topic that you handled already which is around. How you you talk about evidence. How did you get the evidence. What evidence did you have. That helped you win with the union and with law enforcement officers lying and harassing you okay. So that was for heather that question. Why don't we start with the net. If you can provide a short closing thoughts on what you think would be the biggest lever for change that we need that. We can do and that he would recommend. I feel that the international association of chiefs of police need to play a bigger role in these issues. They need to be much more vocal about officers that in with domestic violence and sexual assault on their partners as well as the general public and they need to take more of a leadership role and be more vocal about this. I think that will carry a lot of weight. And i think we need to move past recommending this or that and making things mandated encouraging mandates encouraging policies already policies in police forces across this country only thirty three percent of police precincts have aid away de policy. Now having said that you can put anything on paper but it requires enforcement so they're aware of the situation that are where avoided. Oh i d. they just don't speak publicly about it and so the icp needs to make more ways about this issue. Thank you f. e. I think that we need to. We need to talk about this stuff. We need to specifically sexual violence. There's not enough talking. There's not enough information. Gathered is not enough studies done and the longer stuff stays in the dark. The worst it's gonna get on so we need to able to talk about this without fear of reprisal feel fear of retaliation. We need to be able to connect with other victims other survivors and hear their stories. And how they you know. Unused their expertise learn from them and also make women aware of what's possibly out there right now. We need to let women know what's happening. I had no idea that this was what i was going to be faced with. And you know obviously. We need to make public aware by. We also need to have a broader conversation with everybody and really look at how we can go about making changes because this stuff is affecting lives it's negatively affecting lies. It's destroying families destroying the communities. And so we need to act now and we need to get comfortable with having these uncomfortable conversations to make change. Thank you and finally heather your closing thoughts. I agree with the net and athy regarding what they've given forward with regards to change and with leadership you know. They've been in the culture for decades when they get to the top of that pyramid. They're not going to turn around and point fingers at possibly the people that have been part of the problem or perhaps they've been turning a blind eye to this the entire their entire career. So you know having outside leadership might be the best chance at change. Because they're not prepared they didn't do it in twenty thirty thirty five forty years of their service. They're not about to rock the boat now and allow that to happen. So the leadership is truly what matters and the leadership needs to be about integrity. It needs to be about. We took an oath to protect people. And that involves everyone and that cam everyday when we go to work. It isn't just the people outside that we that we respond to that. We're gonna make the difference in. It's the people around us and ourselves and the choices that were making every single day and who we're going to protect and serve and that means everyone with that oath it just doesn't mean we get to choose. Thank you so. I'm going to actually add my own personal response to address the question that michelle asked around transformative justice of we talk about that a lot in the podcast and it is something that is very controversial within the domestic violence movement. It's been used in juvenile justice in rape and sexual assault cases and in violent crimes. But there's hardly been any studies around whether or not it should be used or would work for domestic abuse because of the nature of the parent control dynamic and When you have is a very similar to what. I was sharing earlier about when you have a police officer being able to legally rape a detainee if they claim it's consensual but we all know that there's no such thing as consensual sex when you're in police custody right and so similarly for domestic abuse victims There are many of us myself. Included and members of the gender collective who believe that of there's no such thing as consensual participation restorative justice practices especially as an alternative to incarceration When you are in a relationship with the abuser try with who you are seeking to get away. It is potentially a very coercive act just to ask for participation and antiques center. Anything else other than the survivors. Safety and fredo to make a decision later. If they want to participate in those kinds of things are not but to make it an alternative to incarceration especially when they're multiple systems involved by criminal court at child welfare and family court makes it very muddies it and makes it something myself in my community members. Find his dangerous so we are happy to share more resources about this and just before we close. I wanted to point out that. Unfortunately angie rivers was unable to join us today because she became ill but she graciously a very last minute invited f. e. and heather of so very happy that both of you were able to join us at the and heather Just isn't f. y. I. for folks who are participating. This is one of five conversations that we scheduled for domestic violence awareness month. It's something that you conjoined individually but we would love if you can join more of because the themes are interesting and it builds upon one another in terms of the knowledge that we're gaining. But i would like to thank all of our panelists the net and heather for joining us today. I'd like to thank michelle for helping to moderate the question and answer. Okay so thank you all have a great afternoon. And let's stay connected. Thank you thank you thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of gendered. The show is sponsored by kenya. Qna appear base knowledge platform that connects social service providers in advice community and learning. You can join can do at. Qna for free at q. And a. dot. K n d. u. I t. dot com. I'd love to get your feedback here. Any questions or suggestions you may have for the show. Please email us at engendered. Podcast at gmail.com with your questions.

terry heather milk twenty seven years national police force ninette low ninette cheese forty percent candu Ninette intelligence bureau canada rcmp sixty thousand dollars robbie six months fifteen years Lever six years herat
July 26, 2020: Special Agent Force Founded

Today in True Crime

12:47 min | 1 year ago

July 26, 2020: Special Agent Force Founded

"Today is Sunday July. Twenty six twenty twenty on this day in Nineteen Oh eight US Attorney General Charles Bonaparte founded the Federal Investigative Agency. That eventually became the FBI. Welcome to today in true crime apar-. CAST original today recovering how Bonaparte put together a group of special agents for the Department of Justice, which later grew into the FBI, not a crime, obviously, but an important moment in the history of law enforcement in the United. States let's go back to Washington. DC On July twenty sixth nineteen, O eight. Fifty seven year old Charles. Bonaparte paced back and forth in his office. His secretary waited patiently for his dictation, sitting by a typewriter. He was trying to find the right words. This was a monumental moment, not just for him. But for the Department of Justice during the past year, Bonaparte struggled to find a team to investigate the rising crime and corruption, lacking his own time officers. He often borrowed secret. Secret Service operatives for feud work that was until he used those agents to investigate potential congressional cover-ups as a result Congress banned Bonaparte from using the Secret Service on May, twenty, seventh, nineteen, hundred eight, but the action turned out to be a blessing in disguise after that President Theodore Roosevelt, granted Bonaparte permission to hire his own team of investigators, and at last he was ready to formally announce it. Finally the word started coming to Bonaparte. He ordered all DOJ attorneys to direct their investigative inquiries to chief Examiner Stanley Finch Bonaparte bestowed finch with the power to use this new team of thirty four special agents who were mostly secret service veterans for investigations at his discretion. Much like today's FBI agents, Bonaparte hired operatives who were physically fit, highly intelligent, well educated and skilled in a foreign language. Once his Secretary Finish Typing Bonaparte signed the order. He didn't anticipate much pushback from the DOJ attorneys after all the department had been lobbying for this team for a year. Bonaparte did however expect some objections from Congress who thought the new team gave the DOJ overreaching authority. He reassured the legislators. His special agents would focus their efforts on federal antitrust violations, land, fraud and copyright. Investigations, Bonaparte swore that they'd steer clear of monitoring their political activities Congress eventually approved. The Department of Justice, finally had its own team of law enforcement officers. Bonaparte called finches team the special agent force. It was officially the beginning of the FBI, but it took several more years before the special agent force evolved into the Intelligence Bureau. It is today. On March fourth nineteen o nine Bonaparte vacated the attorney. General role when President Theodore, Roosevelt's term ended the next commander in chief William Howard Taft appointed George W wicker, Shem as his successor a few days later on March sixteenth. Nineteen O nine wicker Shem made some adjustments to the DOJ's investigative team I. HE changed its name to the Bureau of Investigation. In, the beginning, the agents mostly investigated I, case's such as land fraud, antitrust violations, interstate prostitution and human trafficking, but once the US entered World War One on April sixth nineteen seventeen. The bureau took on espionage duties. Congress tasked. With protecting the US from foreign sabotage during the war, the bureau got involved in counter spy missions as well as investigating war crimes. It grew from having thirty four agents to three hundred and sixty. Of few months into the war, twenty two year, old J. Edgar Hoover accepted a justice. Department clerkship in the war emergency division, eager to succeed. He rose up the DOJ. Ranks quickly during the anti-communist red scare in nineteen, nineteen and nineteen twenty. On May Tenth Nineteen, Twenty Four at age twenty nine hoover was named director of the bureau. His goal was to get the be all I back on track. Throughout the early nineteen twenties, the number of employees of the agency nearly doubled from three, hundred, sixty, two, six, hundred fifty, but with no formal hiring requirements in place, many of the operatives were underqualified, having little education and law enforcement experience. Some agents were over sixty years old and hired as political favors. They lacked the skills and expertise. The bureau needed. The be all. I was no longer taken seriously in the US government as an investigative team, it descended into the kind of corruption that it was supposed to prevent, and it was up to hoover to fix it. Next Hoover implements changes. The give rise to the modern FBI. So I've been playing this exciting mobile puzzle game called best fiends I've been playing for almost a year now, and I'm up to level three hundred thirty. One of course I. Didn't do all that myself. My kids love to play best beans to I like to play because it requires strategy while the game is casual I. Find The puzzles. And Fun so I try to find time to play every day. I like the bright colors and visual design of the game, and the characters are super adorable. Best fiends treats the game like service, so there are new levels, challenges and events every month. The best part you don't even need an Internet connection to play. Don't miss out. Try It for yourself and see if you can beat me. So engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. Trust me with over one hundred million downloads. This five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play. Download best scenes free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the our best beans. Now back to the story. On, July twenty sixth nineteen o eight, then, US attorney. General Charles. Bonaparte founded the Department of Justice's first investigative team, which eventually became the FBI, but on its way to evolving into the governmental bureau. We know today. Bonaparte S- Special Agent Force hit a rough patch in the nineteen ten's after being renamed the Bureau of Investigation, the faction went from employing thirty four former secret service agents to hiring hundreds of underqualified operatives as political favors, but all of that changed after twenty nine year old J. Edgar Hoover was named director of the Bureau on May Tenth, Nineteen Twenty Four. After his appointment, hoover pledged to restore the agencies professional reputation. He had a clear vision of what he wanted the be Oh, I to become, and he was very strict about implementing it. He fired many of the unqualified agents and installed strict guidelines for future bureau operatives. All subsequent hires needed to be between twenty five and thirty five years old with either law or accounting backgrounds. These requirements are largely still in effect today, but that wasn't all hoover required potential agents to go through rigorous background checks, interviews and physical examinations, the were accepted and door to two month training program in Washington. DC The predecessor to the famous FBI Academy in Quantico Virginia. In addition who were developed new investigative initiatives to ensure that the bureau was taking advantage of cutting edge forensic science in the summer of Nineteen, twenty four, he created a nationwide record of criminal fingerprints in the Identification Division soon the beal I exchanged identifying information with Canada and other allies creating a comprehensive crime database. This system still exists today. A few years later in nineteen thirty, the bill I took over the US Nationwide Crime Statistics Program from the International Association of Chiefs of Police. This system keeps tabs on felonies and misdemeanors happening across the country. The bureau's efforts to study criminals were further enhanced with the opening of a scientific crime lab. In nineteen, thirty, two hoover had always dreamed of having his own in house team of scientists. Finally, he got his wish. Around the same time. The Bureau of Prohibition was transferred from the Treasury. Department to the DOJ. This created a new division of Investigation comprised of the BOI and Prohibition Bureau, but once the eighteenth amendment was repealed on December fifth, nineteen three, the Bureau of Prohibition was disbanded. That meant that the only bureau left in the division. The O. I was also referred to as the division of Investigation. Confused, so was everyone else at the time because this wasn't even the only division of Investigation in the US government, several others had formed over the years hustling many officials. Hoover grew frustrated with the confusion about the be Oh. I Attorney General Homer Cummings, Roosevelt and Congress all agreed in a rare moment of consensus after some deliberation. Belts signed off on the new name the Federal Bureau, of Investigation or the FBI. Though the bureau kept growing and evolving over the years. It finally had a name that would stand the test of time. Thanks for listening to today in true crime I'm Vanessa Richardson. If you're interested in learning more about the FBI check out, the park cast original hostage. Today in true crime is par cast original. You can find more episodes of today in true crime and other podcast cast originals for free on spotify not only does spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite podcast originals like today and true crime for free from your phone, desktop or smart speaker to stream today in true crime on spotify, just the APP and type today in true crime in the search bar. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in True Crime. Today in true crime was created by Max, Cutler and is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max, cutler sound design by one Boorda with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Joshua Kern this episode of today. True crime was written by Mallory Kara with writing assistance by Maggie Admire. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

Stanley Finch Bonaparte FBI DOJ J. Edgar Hoover US Congress Charles Bonaparte US attorney Bureau of Prohibition President Theodore Roosevelt Federal Investigative Agency secretary Intelligence Bureau Bonaparte Federal Bureau Washington fraud spotify DC
I > Robot - DTNS 3795

Daily Tech News Show

30:06 min | 1 year ago

I > Robot - DTNS 3795

"Coming up on. The robots can't help apple, but the hey, I may facebook. Lets you push a button to send your photos over to Google and what tech companies will do about the pressure to change their business with law. This is the daily Tech. News for Thursday June Fourth Twenty Twenty in Los Angeles I'm Tom Merritt and from Studio Redwood on Sarah Lane from Oakland California I'm Justin Robert Young. On the show's producer Roger Chain Hey. We're just having a discussion about who we think. The quintessential interviewer was maybe you have an opinion. Goal is to our expanded show. Good Day, Internet by becoming a member. At Patriotair Dot com slash. S Let's start with a few things don't. Fit Bit obtained emergency use authorizations from the US FDA for its fitbit of flow emergency ventilator. The lower cost design is based on the MIT event system, and is the automated at resuscitate resuscitate her style design, replicating the function of manual resuscitation bags used by EMT's with the FDA authorization fitbit can now use its existing manufacturing partners to build these in lert volumes. Messaging. APP Signal announced its next update on IOS and ANDROID will offer a dedicated face blurring option in its image editor. The feature can automatically scan for faces using on device system library and users can also trace over faces. If it fails to detect one signal, says all image processing will be done on device while way launched these six point eight one inch honor play four five g. a lot of numbers there, but it's the play for the honor. Play for and this one is. Is Five. Also a six point. Five one inch model called the play for pro five G.. These are launched in China version of the play for pro will be offered with an infrared temperature sensor, the play, four or five G. Cost, one, thousand, seven, hundred ninety nine yuan, that's about one hundred fifty dollars, yes, and the play for pro cost, two thousand, eight, hundred ninety nine yuan that's about four hundred dollars us and the version with the temperature checking cost you an extra hundred yawn. Some musical chairs on. Google Google announced Ben Gomez believe his role as head of search to go to oversee Google for education, Google, scholar and education search as well as Google Arts and Culture Gomez will remain a technical advisor to search. However private car Ragavan will replace Gomez at the head of search and assistant, which encompasses news discover podcasts, and also Google Assistant Jen, Fitz Patrick will now run Google's central engineering team. That's not a hard job which has eight thousand employees and is responsible for the company's core, technical systems and infrastructure corporate it. Design Google accounts and privacy, but that's. Defined small. Coast through that one. Yeah, facebook is rolling out labels that identified media that is either state owned or state controlled. Those outlets will no longer be allowed to buy advertisements on facebook in the US starting this summer and advertisements they run outside of the US will contain labels as well. facebook used outside experts to classify the state controlled media based on multiple factors and outlets appeal that label. If they feel, it was applied by mistake. All right, let's talk a little bit about all the streaming. People are starting to come out of their houses again, Justin, are they still watching the stream? Oh Heck Yeah Tom. Nielsen estimates that streaming is staying higher than it was pre lockdown. Despite lifting of restrictions across the country, connected TV includes game consoles Rose Martinez and the like March second a Nielsen estimated two point seven billion hours of viewing on connected devices that peaked at three point nine billion for two weeks from March twenty third April. Fifth as lockdowns were eased. Eased the hours fell by much the week. Ending may tend still at three point. Five billion hours viewed Nielsen, said traditional live TV usage. In early May was only marginally higher than twenty thousand nineteen. Yeah, it's still probably too early to draw too many conclusions that three point five billion might settle back down closer to two point seven billion by the time. Everybody's really back. To going outside all the time, but it does show that people turned to streaming more than traditional. And have kept using it so I. Mean I guess you could? You could conclude if this holds that we have accelerated the adoption of streaming among a large number of people, well as far as just sort of like okay people have been forced to adopt different. You know I don't know entertainment strategies and all sorts of other things you know when when when the whole sort of like this is. My routine got torn down and a few months ago. You know at the beginning of March you know what what stuck. Certain things will continue to stick even after life goes back to normal. Whatever that means I think for a lot of people say I like that show I'm going to keep watching that show or I'm going to. I'm going to use the streaming service that maybe I hadn't used before and I had. Taken, advantage of because I was stuck inside in some of that stuff doesn't just go away. Because because life is normal again yet, not to mention these streaming services are optimized for retention in a way that traditional television is not. Former Foxconn executive David born tells the information that back in twenty twelve apple executives, including Tim Cook or reportedly in China to see the results of an experimental ipad production line that wanted to replace humans with robots Terry Glow Foxconn chairman at the time reportedly told apple that Fox guns assembly lines contain one million robots within two years well twenty fourteen came along, and that didn't happen. But last year Foxconn was using one hundred thousand robots across all of its manufacturing and the information sources say that's based on dissatisfaction of the finished product of the robots by Apple Apple launched its own stealth robotics lab in two thousand twelve to try this out themselves which housed a team of automation specialists in robotics, engineers who initially tried mimicking that Foxconn ipad automatic production line, apple reportedly wanted to cut fifteen thousand workers from the production line, but machinery couldn't handle apples. Precision methods, apple also tried an automated production line for the two thousand fifteen macbook, which was not only abandoned, but that MAC book itself was postponed by some months. Because they experiment didn't work. The information article also goes on to talk about how the adaptability of human run production lines is better because humans can be told to do something a different way, whereas machines have to be reprogrammed at this point, so if you want to change something midstream or increased capacity to lines that didn't have the robots. It's not as flexible as the humans. You know a not not that the world needs any. Darker thought that isn't already populated, but the first thing I thought of was specifically with Foxconn if the idea was to move to automated lines that you know to remember their suicide epidemic that happened, and indeed that was through two thousand ten, so if they were introducing and touring. Tim Cook through that I wonder whether or not there was an element of like. Hey, you know that this has become a scandal worldwide It certainly was here in the united. States the uncomfortable nature of how a happy these foxconn employees were. Maybe this is a way that we can go forward to continue to keep your business I wonder whether or not That had anything to do with it. Also, just the idea of a okay, so there was an experimental. Let's see how ipads get assembled. Robots instead of humans come on over Tim, Cook and and various apple executives at the time, and this is a few years ago back in two thousand twelve so eight years ago now and you know th the apple going like not precise enough. You know there's you know like. I I would I would love to know exactly I understand the concept of needing human hands to be more precise when we're. You're talking about tiny little parts of. Of Very expensive gadgets, but but the that it didn't really work out that well for Apple. Apple Kinda go and. Maybe, we can do this ourselves and it'll be closer to home. The experimental loud they had was reportedly just a few miles from apple's main campus in silicon valley, and I didn't really work out either to the point. Where we're still, we're still kind of using the assembly line with all of its problems as you mentioned Justin as we have for many decades. Yeah. This reminds me of eighteen thirty. And the the race between the Tom, thumb steam engine, and the Horse Drawn Rail Cart over a thirteen mile stretch of track. The horse was supposed to lose. This was going to demonstrate the superiority of the steam engine. But the horse kept taking an early lead. It could adapt to the steam engine steam engine could just hit it. Stop speeding go. The horse could like give itself arrest, and when the steam engine caught up, could put out a burst of speed and eventually Tom Thumb, the steam engine broke down. And the Horse One. But less than a year after that race July thirty, first, eighteen, thirty one. All horse-drawn carts were replaced by steam engines on the rail line being Oh, that sponsored this race so I just throw that out there as sort of like. Yeah, stuff doesn't work. Until it works. This is how you get there. You do a bunch of experiments that don't work, and then you go back to the drawing board and you try again so. I think this I would look at this story and say We probably getting closer to robots being able to do this because we figured out where they fail and people are working on fixing that problem. Well? Pretty related, but sort of on the flip side of this whole story. A California based startup called Instrumental Inc. perhaps you've heard of it. Perhaps you haven't created by former up. Apple engineers has created system could help current apple engineers during the corona virus crisis, which has been rumored to be contributing to the delay of the upcoming iphone twelve, possibly anyway, particularly, because traveled to China has been restricted engineers who have to go and make sure everything's going well, and and make sure everything's you know up to up to speed can't go. They can do. It can't do their jobs. Instrumental system equipment manufacturing lines with cameras and then analyzes those images using a is software so that the engineers have more flexibility and not always have to be at any physical location to make sure that things are running smoothly. Cameras and artificial intelligence are designed to spot things like screws or bent springs were damaged batteries all in real time. So yeah, this is an example of something that people you know the idea of putting cameras on the assembly line, so you could look and see what was happening. That's not new. But. This company finally made it work. This is the way it said Oh. We can make this so that it is a replacement for you having to be here in person to the to the point that Motorola and clear. We're using this before the virus. Monitor lines like this isn't like. Hey, maybe it'll work now. This is again kind of like the streaming acceleration of an existing trend. I was once on a flight with one of these Apple Quality Assurance engineers, and she told me a great story about how she was very very aware of her favourite hotel bar, in Shanghai and how she would take her daytrip and tear down a few. Products that she was set there to tear down. Make sure everything was okay and then make sure. She got right back to that hotel bar because she was going to be on on a flight. Out, as soon as tour of duty, it ended. That could last as long as a few months. Sometimes, she was there for a significant period of time, nor at least this retelling on this flight where she particularly happy about it, so I could imagine that this is something that apple could use, and you're right Tom. This is just forcing the issue like now. Okay now you can't go to China even if it's just a company that has infinite money and is just all right. Go literally. Put this woman in a hotel, so she can drink in. Look at ter tore down. For three months. Now you can't do that. What's the best way to do it? And this seems like a an effective and more drilled down version of quality control well. She was probably really good at her job. She wanted like he's like you said you know you're over there for months at a time I mean that's that is extremely disruptive to anybody's life you know maybe some people enjoy it. Probably a lot of people don't but who? Who else is going to do it this job so to be an engineer who has a lot of skills that can be put to different uses because some of that just kind of like. How's it going on the assembly line type? Stuff can be sent to you remotely. Just it seems like such a no brainer I know there's more to it than just like wasn't anything of it before. Obviously people have but but. It's a good solution. Yeah, because before the angles weren't right. You didn't see the things you needed. The system couldn't spot stuff you wanted to, and it looks like maybe This instrumental Incas figured it out. The facebook photo transfer tool that launched in Ireland. At the end of Twenty nineteen is now available globally. The feature lets users directly copy facebook photos to Google photos with an encrypted transfer, rather than having to download and re upload them yourself. The option transfer a copy of your photos and videos is found in the settings menu your facebook information facebook support for other services beyond Google photos is indeed being built now that feature is part of the open source data transfer project. Yeah, and that's that's the big thing. You should be aware of if you weren't. we had this in the US Canada Europe for Awhile I. Think came along around April earlier this year, but now it's everywhere. It's super simple you. I, I did it. You press a button you're you're it tells you okay. It's in process and your photos show up over there. It's so much easier than having to download. Where is it what folder and the data transfer project is an effort by these companies to stay ahead of antitrust legislation. At least in one sector that might have forced them to do stuff like this and say hey. We're making it open, so you can take your data with you granted right now. It's just facebook and Google. It's just photos, but this is the beginning of the ability to move your data around between services, and that's something I want to keep an eye on. Yeah I'm curious to see. Obviously, this happened. Because of facebook was under pressure, but I think it's a fairly. It obviously took a lot to build, but it's it's a low calorie. Give for them, and it shows you the evolving market of what these walled gardens really required to thrive. Google Threat Analysis Group announced. It had recently identified phishing attacks against personal email accounts from staffers on both. President trump's and vice president. Biden's. Google sent a warning to the targeted campaign staffers on both campaigns as well as learning federal law enforcement officials about the attempted attack. The attacks against the Biden campaign staffers appear to have originated in China and the attacks against the trump campaign staffers up peer to originated in Iran Those are best estimates It's it's easy for someone. In another part of the world to make it appear like their attacks coming from somewhere else, but the threat analysis group is pretty good, those kinds of forensics. What's the significance of this host politics politics politics? Well, it certainly was something that became a major issue after the DNC got hacked and the Hillary. Clinton campaign got hacked specifically after. One of the higher ups there, John Podesta clicked on a spear phishing link, so if this is something that was being tempted by on both the Biden and the trump campaign's. It is certainly no surprise. To me, this is. The new normal if you are if everybody has to deal with spear phishing attack, you can only imagine that the prize is that much richer when you are looking at a heightened media environment and remember how much of a chaos bomb those, but s two emails were and those DNC emails where the DNC emails were released the day or two days before the Democratic National Convention last year, so you can only imagine even if these were successful, I mean these are been detected if they are successful from somebody else that clicked on some of these links, then you never know when these kind of a treasure trove of information will pop up. ALL RIGHT FOLKS! If you WANNA, get all the tech headlines each day about five minutes. Be Sure to subscribe to daily Tech Headlines Dot. com. Tech companies are under fire for the tech. They sell to law enforcement right now I. Don't think you need me to explain to you why there's a lot of opinions about law enforcement right now. Amazon sells hundreds of law. Enforcement agencies facial recognition tool called recognition with Kate. On. among the interesting things about recognition, a researchers at the University of Toronto Mit. Did a study that found the recognition misidentified people with darker skin more often than those with lighter skin, particularly females, but also males Amazon says that that research is flawed. They denied that claim, said you. You don't have the most current version of the Algorithm Amazon has also been criticized for its ring doorbell video-sharing partnerships with police departments. They've also modified those to change it to be under the control of the Ring Person Very clearly whether you would hand over video to the police department rather than just on an ongoing basis, being able to improve it on a case by case basis. As not just Amazon Google has been criticized for working with Geo fencing warrants. These are warrants that permit the police to request anonymous information for phones in an area surrounding crime. So you say, give me give me this boundary line any information anonymous information on on activity there, and then if the police with that information can narrow down suspects, they can get a warrant to get user names and location data. Four specific devices geofencing are criticized for sometimes being overly broad in the area. Loud then again Google says. We just comply with warrants so if there's a problem with geofencing more than. We should work on reforming geofencing mourns Google also pulled out of a contract to help the Department of Defense Developed Machine Vision Technology for drones, so Google has bowed to pressure in the past. Who Else Microsoft partners with the New York? Police Department on a system that aggregate data from a network of cameras, delivering license plates, and other database driven devices, IBM sells machine learning tools for predictive policing in an attempt to predict future crimes, spots, and sometimes actual future criminals. But again. What kind of. These data sets that these machine learning algorithms are trained on IBM. D, to use images of New Yorkers to train AI tools. Without necessarily getting the permission of everybody in those images. And next door. has been criticized for tolerating racial profiling by its users. Next door has taken action told wired that it has seen profiling decline since it began requiring more detailed information before reporting someone as suspicious. If you just try to type something on next door, sometimes it'll pop up and say hey. It sounds like you're trying to say this. Have you thought about that you? Can you add these more details? There's also problems with salesforce and other companies out there. Microsoft and Amazon is sponsoring the International Association of Chiefs of Police Conference in New Orleans later. This year Microsoft also has been an advocate for. Having legislation about facial recognition how it should be used. They have leverage. They have lobbying have relationships. Should they all just stop selling this technology? Geoffrey Alpert Criminology, professor at the University of South Carolina who serves as a member of the International. Association of Chiefs of Police Research. Council told protocol that if these companies step back from providing technology law, enforcement agencies would find other vendors. Quote someone's going to sell it to the police to make money. So it might be principled from Microsoft or Google Amazon to stop providing their technology, but that would not necessarily stop law enforcement from using that technology, because they might be able to find and probably would be able to find another vendor. So the question is what do you want them to do? You Know I. Think the biggest thing here is transparency and specifically pushing for that when you are dealing with law, enforcement or governmental contracts Let's also remember that you know Google of sold, Boston Dynamics and part of at least the rumored reason. Why was because Boston? Dynamics was inherently going to move more into a defense contractor? Model and Google did not or alphabet did not want. That to be necessarily such a gigantic part of their portfolio. The reason why people do this is because the money's big, and it's good, and it never goes away you can. You can continue to cash that check if a system is built on, this is government in general law, enforcement is no exception. Do not change systems all that often. They don't nimbly go from one thing to another, so if you can get a law enforcement contract, that is a lot of long term money and specifically looking at the. People who are sponsoring the Association of the Chief of Police Chiefs of Police Microsoft an Amazon both sell aws Azure, and they want people to be on those platforms, and they build products specifically for law enforcement, so they can secure those contracts including some of the ice stuff so all I would ask, and all I've ever asked him by the way. This is only gonNA become more of a problem. Upfront as up front end detailed as you possibly can within the agreements and should the agreements become too opaque than I. Do believe it is our consumer right to hold them accountable for that. And in a situation like recognition and Amazon Sane. We'll. Our software is not recognizing certain people over other people. That's just not happening, but there's a study that says it is happening. It's on Amazon to say okay well. Maybe the people who are making the software you know we we have to. We have to rethink that. Maybe we need you know another group of folks who are making sure that the people making the software are not introducing biases that are going to become problematic later on I. Don't think a lot of this. This technology is inherently bad I. Mean it's all about you know. Get the bad guys. Protect the good people, but batgirls, but but but it, but it is rife with issues, so it kind of falls on the people at the end of the day. that WHO's making this. Why are they making this? And and and what are they thinking but Amazon would answer you Sarah to say no. We've done all that. It's these researchers were looking at an old version of the algorithm. Okay I mean. So. I mean but but. I think we point is instead of Amazon. Being well, that's wrong. We are not GonNa Dan Age right now of people being like Amazon on. The researchers stupid, so we'll just we'll just carry on with life. It's more of like no, here's why you might have thought this. Here's why we really care that that wouldn't happen. And here's what we're doing to make. Sure that that doesn't happen. In the future I mean one answer to this. Could be. Don't worry about IT companies sell your products. Law Enforcement needs him and and don't listen to the folks complaining I. Don't know that that's tenable situation for for companies to do right now. they are on immense pressure inside and out to take this seriously and pay attention, so they will possibly lose customers and employees You know we're seeing petitions walkouts. So companies are probably wise to pay attention to this and not just ignore it. The other side would be to say just stop selling altogether. Don't sell the law enforcement, but again it's not a flimsy excuse to say well, but does that solve the problem if someone else just steps in and sells them. Is it better if these companies take their privileged position and use it to have better rules? That's what I would like to see is Microsoft and Amazon and Google and salesforce. Saying you know what we're GONNA improve. Amazon is going to say we're not just going to tell you it's better we're going to do. What Justice said we're. We're GONNA affect transparency. We're going to tell you how it's better. We're going to admit where it's not better. We want to push for legislation that will put limits on how it can be used. which is what Microsoft is doing. It's pushing for legislation because private companies. Just not selling isn't really ineffective tool in a marketplace as open as this. Where lawn I can just go. Buy It somewhere else. You need to come up with sensible rules that say hey. The technology isn't good enough to do these things yet, but it is good enough to do these things. Let's come to a reasonable accommodation that helps law enforcement. Do their jobs properly? And accountably. and. They'RE GONNA THEY'RE GONNA. Get a vendor and that vendor of Amazon came out and said we are absolutely not doing this then the team that would develop it could spin out. Create their own company Hook Aws, because they already know exactly how to take best advantage of it and aws would still get the money for whatever their server cost, but it'd be another company that would come out and do it like this. This is the genie's out of the bottle. On this particular issue, it's just a matter of how you can do it. The most effectively and the most ethically I think really good a really good statement from thrown Walden. Our chat is this new. How do we even know all the things that could be wrong with it? And that's important to take into account, which is, there are things you know it can do. And those are the things you should allow. There are things that might be able to do those things you to be really careful about you need to try them and test them responsibly to improve them, and then there's things you know aren't ready yet. And those should be kept in the lap and not used in public. Well thanks, everybody who participates in our sub reddit. Lot of security stories end up there every day, and you help us learn what matters to you submit your own stories. Vote on others at daily Tech News Show Dot, ready dot, com all right. Let's check out the mail bag. Oh, let so on. Yesterday? We were talking about this sort of like fun. Fantasy idea that some of us have on the show of having like a coffee shop, but also where the podcast happens, so it's like it's part. You know place to go hang and get your coffee or your or a sandwich or something, and also partly a place to your show. And somebody wrote in unfortunately did not get his name, but he said it. We had something like that in Pittsburgh. In fact real, we'll place. It was a restaurant that served waffles was also a talk show. It's called the waffle shop. That's what we're going to do. A. Pack your bags everybody. We're moving into the wealth. Brian, thank you Brian Thank you Brian. waffle shop. A reality show was performance, Art, project and restaurant in the East Liberty neighborhood of Pittsburgh operated by Carnegie Mellon University students. That's. That's so great. How long term plan of the daily show great? Yeah, it turns out. We all have to live close by, but we can had our coffee shops like everybody on friends. It's great. Hey, shot after patrons at our master and grandmaster levels including at Read Fischler Paul Reese and Mark Gibson also thanks to Justin Robert Young, host politics politics politics. What's been going on in your world nothing? I assume Oh man. You know a very serious episode yesterday kind of went out of our format, and did kind of more of a breakdown of our relationship with the police, specifically in reaction to everything that's going on right now and the murder of George Floyd but We are back to our regular format. Tomorrow we got a great interview about the the of nineteen, Fifty, seven and nineteen, sixty eight, why they're different, and we got some great little tidbits in there, including where social distancing our modern idea of social distancing came into the public health playbook. Hey thank you everybody for continuing to stick by US in support. US patriotic means the world I put up an editor's desk today for everyone, usually the editor's desk. Folks at the associate producer level and above but this one went out to to the whole batch. If you're wondering why you got it. It's because it's me talking about Some of my feelings and the situations around that Monday show that we did this week and thanks again to to those guys and lady. Who Participated in that show as well and thank you all for being willing to listen, and you can continue to support us daily technician dot com slash patriot. You can also continue to give us feedback which we love our email addresses feedback daily technique show dot com. We're also live Monday through Friday. Four Thirty PM Eastern Twenty thirty TC and you can find out more at daily. Tech News show dot. com slash live. Dr Morrow were Patrick Dorton will tell us where to put our speakers and Len Peralta. We'll draw. The show is part of the broadband network. GET MORE AT FROG PANTS DOT com. Club. Who've enjoyed this broader?

Google apple Amazon China Microsoft Justin Robert Young facebook US engineer California Foxconn Tim Cook producer FDA Patriotair Dot daily Tech Tom Biden Twenty Twenty
I > Robot  DTNS 3795

Daily Tech News Show

30:06 min | 1 year ago

I > Robot DTNS 3795

"Coming up on. The robots can't help apple, but the hey I may facebook lets you push a button to send your photos over to Google and what tech companies will do about the pressure to change their business with law. This is the daily Tech News for Thursday June fourth twenty twenty in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt and from Studio Redwood on Sarah Lane from Oakland. California I'm Justin Robert Young. On the show's producer Roger Chain Hey. We're just having a discussion about who we think. The quintessential interviewer was maybe you have an opinion. Go listen to our expanded show good day Internet by becoming a member at. Patriotair dot com slash. S. Let's start with a few things don't. Fit Bit obtained emergency use authorizations from the US FDA for its fitbit of flow emergency ventilator. The lower cost design is based on the MIT event system, and is the automated at resuscitate resuscitate her style design, replicating the function of manual resuscitation bags used by EMT's with the FDA authorization. FITBIT can now use its existing manufacturing partners to build these in lert volumes. Messaging APP signal announced its next update on Ios, and ANDROID will offer a dedicated face blurring option in its image editor. The feature can automatically scan for faces using an on device system library and users can also trace over faces. If it fails to detect one signal, says all image processing will be done on device while way launched these six point eight one inch honor play four five g. a lot of numbers there, but it's the play for the honor play for and this one is five also a six point. Five one inch model called the play for pro five G.. In China version of the play for pro will be offered with an infrared temperature sensor, the play, four or five G. Cost, one, thousand, seven, hundred ninety nine yuan, that's about one hundred fifty dollars, yes, and the play for pro cost, two thousand, eight, hundred ninety nine yuan that's about four hundred dollars us and the version with the temperature checking cost you an extra hundred yawn. So musical chairs on Google Google announced Ben Gomez believe his role as head of search to go to oversee Google for education, Google, scholar and education search as well as Google Arts and culture. Gomez will remain a technical advisor to search however private car Ragavan will replace Gomez at the head of search and assistant, which encompasses news discover podcasts, and also Google Assistant Jen, Fitz. Patrick will now run Google's central engineering, team. That's not a hard job which has eight thousand employees and is responsible for the company's core, technical systems and infrastructure corporate it. Design Google accounts and privacy, but that's. Defined small. Coast through that one. Yeah, facebook is rolling out labels that identified media that is either state owned or state controlled. Those outlets will no longer be allowed to buy advertisements on facebook in the US starting this summer and advertisements they run outside of the US will contain labels as well. facebook used outside experts to classify the state controlled media based on multiple factors and outlets repeal that label. If they feel, it was applied by mistake. All Right? Let's talk a little bit about all the streaming. People are starting to come out of their houses again, Justin, are they still watching the stream? Oh Heck. Yeah, Tom, Nielsen estimates that streaming is staying higher than it was pre lockdown. Despite lifting of restrictions across the country, connected TV includes game consoles of Rose Martinez and the like March second, a Nielsen estimated two point seven billion hours of viewing on connected devices that peaked at three point nine billion for two weeks from March twenty third April fifth as lockdowns were eased. Eased, the hours fell by much the week. Ending may tend still at three point. Five billion hours viewed Nielsen said traditional live TV, usage in early May was only marginally higher than twenty thousand nineteen. Yeah, it's still probably too early to draw too many conclusions that three point five billion might settle back down closer to two point seven billion by the time. Everybody's really back. To going outside all the time, but it does show that people turned to streaming more than traditional. And have kept using it so I mean I. Guess You could, you could conclude if this holds that we have accelerated the adoption of streaming among a large number of people, well as far as just sort of like okay people have been forced to adopt different. You Know I. Don't know entertainment strategies, and all sorts of other things you know when when when the whole sort of like this is. My routine got torn down and a few months ago. You know at the beginning of March. You know what what stuck. Certain things will continue to stick even after life goes back to normal whatever that means I think for a lot of people. Say I like that show. I'm going to keep watching that show or I'm going to. I'm going to use the streaming service that maybe I hadn't used before and I had. Taken advantage of because I was stuck inside in. Some of that stuff doesn't just go away. Because because life is normal again yet, not to mention these streaming services are optimized for retention in a way that traditional television is not. Former Foxconn executive David born tells the information that back in twenty twelve apple executives, including Tim Cook, or reportedly in China to see the results of an experimental ipad production line that wanted to replace humans with robots Terry. Glow Foxconn chairman at the time, reportedly told apple that Fox guns assembly lines contain one million robots within two years well twenty fourteen came along, and that didn't happen. But last year Foxconn was using one hundred thousand robots across all of its manufacturing and the information sources say that's based on dissatisfaction of the finished product of the robots by Apple Apple launched its own stealth robotics lab in two thousand twelve to try this out themselves, which housed a team of automation specialists in robotics, engineers who initially tried mimicking that Foxconn, ipad automatic production line apple reportedly wanted to cut fifteen thousand workers from the production line, but machinery couldn't handle apples. Precision methods, apple also tried an automated production line for the two thousand fifteen macbook, which was not only abandoned, but that MAC book itself was postponed by some months. Because they experiment didn't work. The information article also goes on to talk about how the adaptability of human run production lines is better because humans can be told to do something a different way, whereas machines have to be reprogrammed at this point, so if you want to change something midstream or increased capacity to lines that didn't have the robots. It's not as flexible as the humans. You know a not not that the world needs any. Darker thought that isn't already populated, but the first thing I thought of was specifically with Foxconn if the idea was to move to automated lines that you know to remember their suicide epidemic that happened, and indeed that was through two thousand ten, so if they were introducing and touring. Tim Cook through that I wonder whether or not there was an element of like. Hey, you know that this has become a scandal worldwide It certainly was here in the United States. The uncomfortable nature of how a happy these foxconn employees were. Maybe this is a way that we can go forward to continue to keep your business. I wonder whether or not That had anything to do with it. Also, just the idea of a okay, so there was an experimental. Let's see how ipads get assembled. Robots instead of humans, come on over Tim Cook and and various apple executives at the time, and this is a few years ago back in two thousand twelve so eight years ago now and you know th the apple going like not precise enough. You know there's know like I I would I would love to know exactly. I understand the concept of needing human hands to be more precise when we're. You're talking about tiny little parts of. Of Very expensive gadgets, but but the that it didn't really work out that well for Apple. Apple Kinda go and. Maybe, we can do this ourselves and it'll be closer to home. The experimental loud they had was reportedly just a few miles from apple's main campus in silicon valley and I didn't really work out either to the point where we're still, we're still kind of using the assembly line with all of its problems as you mentioned Justin as we have for many decades. Yeah This reminds me of eighteen thirty. And the the race between the Tom Thumb steam engine, and the Horse Drawn Rail Cart over a thirteen mile stretch of track. The horse was supposed to lose. This was going to demonstrate the superiority of the steam engine. But the horse kept taking an early lead, it could adapt to the steam engine steam engine could just hit it. Stop speeding go. The horse could like give itself arrest, and when the steam engine caught up, could put out a burst of speed and eventually Tom. Thumb, the steam engine broke down. And the Horse One. But less than a year after that race July thirty, first eighteen, thirty one. All horse-drawn carts were replaced by steam engines on the rail line being Oh, that sponsored this race, so I just throw that out there as sort of like. Yeah, stuff doesn't work. Until it works. This is how you get there. You do a bunch of experiments that don't work, and then you go back to the drawing board and you try again so. I? Think this I would look at this story and say We probably getting closer to robots being able to do this because we figured out where they fail and people are working on fixing that problem. Well. Pretty related, but sort of on the flip side of this whole story, a California based startup called Instrumental Inc. perhaps you've heard of it. Perhaps you haven't created by former up. Apple engineers has created system could help current apple engineers during the corona virus crisis, which has been rumored to be contributing to the delay of the upcoming iphone twelve, possibly anyway, particularly because traveled to China has been restricted engineers who have to go and make sure everything's going well, and and make sure everything's you know up to up to speed can't go. They can do. It can't do their jobs. Instrumental system equipment manufacturing lines with cameras and then analyzes those images using a is software so that the engineers have more flexibility and not always have to be at any physical location to make sure that things are running smoothly. Cameras and artificial intelligence are designed to spot things like missing screws or bent springs were damaged batteries all in real time. So, yeah, this is an example of something that people you know the idea of putting cameras on the assembly line, so you could look and see what was happening. That's not new. But this company finally made it work. This is the way it said. Oh we can make this so that it is a replacement for you having to be here in person to the to the point that Motorola and clear. We're using this before the virus. Monitor lines like this isn't like. Hey, maybe it'll work now. This is again kind of like the streaming acceleration of an existing trend. I was once on a flight with one of these Apple Quality Assurance engineers, and she told me a great story about how she was very very aware of her favourite hotel bar in Shanghai, and how she would take her daytrip and tear down a few. Products that she was set there to tear down. Make sure everything was okay and then make sure. She got right back to that hotel bar because she was going to be on on a flight. Out as soon as tour of duty, it ended. That could last as long as a few months. Sometimes, she was there for a significant period of time, nor at least this retelling on this flight where she particularly happy about it, so I could imagine that this is something that apple could use, and you're right, Tom this is just forcing the issue like now. Okay now you can't go to China even if it's just a company that has infinite money and is just all right. Go literally. Put this woman in a hotel, so she can drink in look at ter tore down. I pads for three months. Now you can't do that. What's the best way to do it? And this seems like a an effective and more drilled down version of quality control well. She was probably really good at her job. She wanted like he's like you said you know you're over there for months at a time. I mean that's that is extremely disruptive to anybody's life you know maybe some people enjoy it probably a lot of. Of people don't but going to do it this job, so to be an engineer who has a lot of skills that can be put to different uses because some of that just kind of like. How's it going on the assembly line type? Stuff can be sent to you remotely. Just it seems like such a no brainer I know. There's more to it than just like wasn't anything of it before. People have but but. It's a good solution. Yeah, because before the angles weren't right, you didn't see the things you needed. The system couldn't spot stuff you wanted to, and it looks like maybe This instrumental Incas figured it out. The facebook photo. Tool that launched in Ireland at the end of Twenty nineteen is now available globally. The feature lets users directly copy facebook photos to Google photos with an encrypted transfer, rather than having to download and re upload them yourself. The option transfer a copy of your photos and videos is found in the settings menu under your facebook information facebook support for other services beyond Google. Photos is indeed being built now. That feature is part of the open source data transfer project. Yeah, and that's that's the big thing you. You should be aware of if you weren't I mean. We've had this in the US. Canada Europe for Awhile I. Think came along around April earlier this year, but now it's everywhere. It's super simple you. I, I, did it. You press a button you're you're it tells you okay. It's in process and your photos show up over there. It's so much easier than having to download. Where is it what folder and the data transfer project is an effort by these companies to stay ahead of antitrust legislation. At least in one sector that might have forced them to do stuff like this and say hey. We're making it open, so you can take your data with you granted right now. It's just facebook and Google. It's just photos, but this is the beginning of the ability to move your data around between services, and that's something I. Want to keep an eye on. Yeah I'm curious to see. Obviously this happened. Because of facebook was under pressure, but I think it's a fairly mean. It obviously took a lot to build, but it's it's a low calorie. Give them and it shows you the evolving market of what these walled gardens really required to thrive. Google Threat Analysis Group announced it had recently identified phishing attacks against personal email accounts from staffers on both President Trump's and vice president biden's campaigns Google sent a warning to the targeted campaign staffers on both campaigns as well as learning federal law enforcement officials about the attempted attack, the attacks against the Biden campaign staffers appear to have originated in China and the attacks against the trump campaign staffers appear to have originated in Iran those are best estimates it's it's easy for someone. In another part of the world to make it appear like their attacks coming from somewhere else, but the threat analysis group is pretty good, those kinds of forensics. What's the significance of this host politics politics politics. Well, it certainly was something that became a major issue after the DNC got hacked, and the Hillary Clinton campaign got hacked specifically after. One of the higher ups there John Podesta clicked on a spear phishing link, so if this is something that was being tempted by on on both the Biden and the trump campaign's. It is certainly no surprise. To me this is. The new normal if you are if everybody has to deal with spear phishing attack, you can only imagine that the prize is that much richer when you are looking at a heightened media environment and remember how much of a chaos bomb those but s to emails were and those DNC e emails where the DNC emails were released the day or two days before the Democratic National Convention last year, so you can only imagine even if these were successful I mean these are been detected if they are successful from somebody else that clicked on some of these links, then you never know when these kind of a treasure trove of information will pop up. All right folks, if you WANNA, get all the tech headlines each day about five minutes. Be Sure to subscribe to daily tech headlines Dot Com. Tech companies are under fire for the tech. They sell to law enforcement right now I. Don't think you need me to explain to you why there's a lot of opinions about law enforcement right now. Amazon sells hundreds of law. Enforcement agencies facial recognition tool called recognition with Kate. On. Among the interesting things about recognition, a researchers at the University of Toronto Mit. Did a study that found the recognition misidentified people with darker skin more often than those with lighter skin, particularly females, but also males Amazon says that that research is flawed. They denied that claim, said you. You don't have the most current version of the algorithm, Amazon has also been criticized for its ring doorbell video-sharing partnerships with police departments. They've also modified those to change it to be under the control of the ring. Person Very, clearly whether you would hand over video to the police department rather than just on an ongoing basis, being able to improve it on a case by case basis. As not just Amazon Google has been criticized for working with Geo fencing warrants. These are warrants that permit the police to request anonymous information for phones in an area surrounding crime. So, you say, give me give me this boundary line any information anonymous information on on activity there, and then if the police with that information can narrow down two suspects, they can get a warrant to get user names and location data. Four specific devices geofencing are criticized for sometimes being overly broad in the area. Loud then again. Google says we just comply with warrants, so if there's a problem with geofencing more than. We should work on reforming geofencing mourns Google, also pulled out of a contract to help. The Department of Defense Developed Machine Vision Technology for drones, so Google has bowed to pressure in the past. Who Else Microsoft partners with the new? York Police Department on a system that aggregate data from a network of cameras, delivering license plates and other database driven devices, IBM sells machine learning tools for predictive policing in an attempt to predict future crimes, spots, and sometimes actual future criminals. But again. What kind of Data sets that these machine learning algorithms are trained on IBM. NYPD to use images of New Yorkers to train AI tools. Without necessarily getting the permission of everybody in those images. And next door. has been criticized for tolerating racial profiling by its users. Next door has taken action told wired that it has seen profiling decline since it began requiring more detailed information before reporting someone as suspicious. If you just try to type something on next door, sometimes it'll pop up and say hey. It sounds like you're trying to say this. Have you thought about that you? Can you add these more details? There's also problems with salesforce and other companies out there. Microsoft and Amazon is sponsoring the International Association of Chiefs of Police Conference in New Orleans later this year. Microsoft also has been an advocate for. Having legislation about facial recognition how it should be used. They have leverage. They have lobbying have relationships. Should they all just stop selling this technology? Geoffrey Alpert criminology professor at the University of South Carolina who serves as a member of the International Association of Chiefs of Police Research, council told protocol that if these companies step back from providing technology law, enforcement agencies would find other vendors. Quote someone's going to sell it to the police to make money. So it might be principled from Microsoft or Google Amazon to stop providing their technology, but that would not necessarily stop law enforcement from using that technology, because they might be able to find and probably would be able to find another vendor. So the question is what do you want them to do? You know I think the biggest thing here is transparency and specifically pushing for that when you are dealing with law, enforcement or governmental contracts Let's also remember that you know Google of sold Boston Dynamics and part of at least the rumored reason why was because Boston dynamics was inherently going to move more into a defense contractor? Model and Google did not or alphabet did not want. That to be necessarily such a gigantic part of their portfolio. The reason why people do this is because the money's big, and it's good, and it never goes away you can. You can continue to cash that check if a system is built on. This is government in general law enforcement. No exception do not change systems all that often. They don't nimbly go from one thing to another, so if you can get a law enforcement contract, that is a lot of long term money and specifically looking at the. People who are sponsoring the Association of the Chief of Police Chiefs of Police Microsoft an Amazon, both sell aws Azure, and they want people to be on those platforms, and they build products specifically for law enforcement, so they can secure those contracts including some of the ice stuff so all I would ask, and all I've ever asked him by the way this is only gonNA become more of a problem. Upfront as up front end detailed as you possibly can within the agreements, and should the agreements become too opaque than I do believe it is our consumer right to hold them accountable for that. And in a situation like recognition and Amazon Sane we'll. Our software is not recognizing certain people over other people. That's just not happening, but there's a study that says it is happening. It's on Amazon to say okay well. Maybe the people who are making the software you know we we have to. We have to rethink that. Maybe we need you know another group of folks who are making sure that the people making the software are not introducing biases that are going to become problematic later on I. Don't think a lot of this. This technology is inherently bad I. Mean it's all about you know. Get the bad guys. Protect the good people but batgirls, but but but it, but it is rife with issues, so it kind of falls on the people at the end of the day that WHO's making this. Why are they making this? And and and what are they thinking, but Amazon would answer you Sarah to say no. We've done all that. It's these researchers were looking at an old version of the algorithm. Well okay, I mean. So I mean but but. I think I think my point is instead of Amazon being well. That's wrong. We are not GonNa Dan Age right now of people being like Amazon on. The researchers stupid, so we'll just we'll just carry on with life. It's more of like no, here's why you might have thought this. Here's why we really care that that wouldn't happen. And here's what we're doing to make. Sure that that doesn't happen in the future. I mean one answer to this. Could be don't worry about it. Companies Sell your products. Law Enforcement needs him and and don't listen to the folks complaining I. Don't know that that's tenable situation for for companies to do right now. they are on immense pressure inside and out to take this seriously and pay attention, so they will possibly lose customers and employees You know we're seeing petitions walkouts. So companies are probably wise to pay attention to this and not just ignore it, the other side would be to say just stop selling altogether. Don't sell the law enforcement, but again it's not a flimsy excuse to say well, but does that solve the problem if someone else just steps in and sells them. Is it better if these companies take their privileged position and use it to have better rules? That's what I would like to see is Microsoft and Amazon and Google and salesforce saying you know what we're gonNA improve Amazon is going to say we're not just going to tell you it's better we're going to do. What Justice said we're. We're GONNA affect transparency. We're going to tell you how it's better. We're going to admit where it's not better. We want to push for legislation that will put limits on how it can be used. which is what Microsoft is doing. It's pushing for legislation because private companies. Just not selling isn't really ineffective tool in a marketplace as open as this where lawn I can just go buy it somewhere else. You need to come up with sensible rules that say hey. The technology isn't good enough to do these things yet, but it is good enough to do these things. Let's come to a reasonable accommodation that helps law enforcement. Do their jobs properly? And accountably. And Look. They're gonNA. They're gonNA. Get a vendor. And that vendor of Amazon came out and said we are absolutely not doing this then the team that would develop it could spin out create their own company Hook Aws, because they already know exactly how to take best advantage of it, and aws would still get the money for whatever their server cost, but it'd be another company that would come out and do it like. Like this is the genie's out of the bottle on this particular issue. It's just a matter of how you can do it. The most effectively and the most ethically I think really good a really good statement from thrown Walden. Our chat is this new. How do we even know all the things that could be wrong with it? And that's important to take into account, which is, there are things you know it can do. And those are the things you should allow. There are things that might be able to do those things you to be really careful about you need to try them and test them responsibly to improve them. And then there's things you know aren't ready yet. And those should be kept in the lap and not used in public. Well. Thanks, everybody who participates in our sub reddit. Lot of security stories end up there every day, and you help us learn what matters to you submit your own stories. Vote on others at daily, Tech News Show Dot, ready, dot, com all right. Let's check out the mail bag. Oh, let so on. Yesterday, we were talking about this sort of like fun. Fantasy idea that some of us have on the show of having like a coffee shop, but also where the podcast happens, so it's like it's part. You know place to go. Hang and get your coffee or your or a sandwich or something, and also partly a place to your show. And somebody wrote in unfortunately did not get his name, but he said it. We had something like that in Pittsburgh. In fact, real place. It was a restaurant that served waffles was also a talk show. It's called the waffle shop. That's what we're going to do. A. Pack your bags, everybody. We're moving into the wealth Brian. Thank you Brian Thank you Brian. waffle shop, a reality show was performance, Art, project and restaurant in the east. Liberty neighborhood of Pittsburgh operated by Carnegie Mellon University students. That's. That's so great. How long term plan of the daily show great? Yeah, it turns out. We all have to live close by, but we can had our coffee shops like everybody on friends. It's great. Hey, shot after patrons at our master and grandmaster levels including at Read Fischler. Paul Reese and Mark Gibson also thanks to Justin Robert Young host politics, politics politics. What's been going on in your world nothing? I assume Oh man. You know a very serious episode. Yesterday kind of went out of our format, and did kind of more of a breakdown of our relationship with the police, specifically in reaction to everything. That's going on right now and the murder of George Floyd but we are back to our regular format. Tomorrow we got a great interview about the the of nineteen, Fifty, seven and nineteen, sixty eight, why they're different, and we got some great little tidbits in there, including where social distancing our modern idea of social distancing came into the public health playbook. Hey, thank you everybody for continuing to stick by US in support US patriotic means the world I. Put up an editor's desk today for everyone usually the editor's desk. Folks at the associate producer level and above but this one went out to to the whole batch. If you're wondering why you got it. It's because it's me talking about Some of my feelings and the situations around that Monday show that we did this week and thanks again to to those guys and lady. Who Participated in that show as well and thank you all for being willing to listen, and you can continue to support us daily show dot com slash, Patriot. You can also continue to give us feedback which we love our email addresses feedback daily technique show dot com. We're also live Monday through Friday. Four Thirty PM Eastern, twenty thirty TC, and you can find out more at daily. Tech, news show dot com slash live Dr Morrow were Patrick. Dorton will tell us where to put our speakers and Len Peralta. We'll draw. The show is part of the broadband network. Get more at. FROG PANTS DOT com. Club. Who've enjoyed this broiler?

Google apple Amazon China United States Tom Merritt facebook Microsoft Justin Robert Young engineer California Tim Cook Foxconn producer FITBIT Pittsburgh Los Angeles FDA Patrick