20 Episode results for "Insular Cortex"

Dr. Robert Sapolsky: What Does It Take to Really Understand Our Decisions?

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

52:10 min | 1 year ago

Dr. Robert Sapolsky: What Does It Take to Really Understand Our Decisions?

"This episode of Clean Vivid with Robertson Polski is brought to you by presenting sponsor discovery for more than thirty years discoveries global networks have been in helping hundreds of millions of viewers understand their lives their communities and the world around them from science and nature to food and lifestyle and now how the world's biggest sporting events in greatest names in travel and documentary films the discovery family proudly informs entertains and powers the passions and drive our planet. Many of our listeners probably paid close attention to Hurricane Doreen and they know that hurricane data or more vital than ever yeah and that's that's why science channel and Josh Morgan have a new series called Hurricane Man Josh goes into the heart of the storms to capture vivid perspective of their power and you you know Alan I love to see science channel make things clear and vivid do they have a hurricane man airs Sundays at nine pm Eastern on Science Channel Chattel or on the go APP Syria. You were just telling me about one of our sponsors today. What will tell me more yeah? Allen Worthy is an online auction house for diamonds Diamond Jewelry and earlier luxury watches so you can sell the jewelry you no longer want or need with their full service solution with worthy you get complimentary shipping shipping and insurance a third party objective gemmological grading they do. HD photographs and the auction to professionally vetted buyers nationwide so just send them your jewelry for grading you can set your reserve and you watch the offers role in so head to worthy dot com slash Allen to get started. I'm older and this is clear in vivid conversations about connecting and communicating communicating huge percentage of people who are capable of shocking themselves at how crummy their behavior can be and the right `unright circumstance and how her ROIC compassionate could turn out to be in circumstances where they may not have expected Tim Y'all this this capacity for extremes of pro-socialist antisocial behaviors is just without precedent in the Animal Kingdom Jeff Roberts opolskie spend eight to ten hours a day every summer for twenty five years on the plains of Africa in the company of boom and and he came away from that experience with an amazing understanding of humans. It's always a joy to talk with Roberts Opolskie and I've had that pleasure a couple of times on the television series scientific American frontiers. It's always very happy when he agreed to chat again. Clear and vivid we spoke via video link between our Manhattan Studio and Stanford University where Robert is a popular professor. I'm so glad to be talking with you. Because uh-huh you have studied your whole life things that interest me immensely in deeply and I I I'm spending this part of my life working on these these things like communication and one of the most interesting examples of communication that is part of your life I think is when you're in the museum and you saw aw African Dioramas and the communication of the Diorama which I always thought was kind of sad and still and looked like a taxidermy taxidermy shop. You wanted to live in the DIORAMAS. Is that true that shows you how sad and taxidermied Brooklyn was at the time being a kid. Yes I duNno. I guess I didn't see the spider webs and stuff on his Carl. Hackley Hackley Carl was the explorer who was responsible for most of the taxidermied things in the African Hall Museum of Natural History. Yeah they they to a little bit on the antiques. Somehow it excited your imagination than you. You'd Kinda devoted your life from that moment. Oh Madonna would how old were you. When you've got fascinated with those animals I think about eight when I decided I wanted to be a primate Hala Gist it was it was a sort of a natural transition from the you know how many not rex's would it take to take down a brontosaurus kind of stage of childhood Al`thood obsession and then finally at what point did you wind up actually being in Africa not the Diorama but the real Africa the real real the real thing it was a week after I graduated college I went off at age twenty and landed in Kenya and started studying cocoons babboons and did you learn as much about people from studying babboons as you did about babboons I suspect so it certainly my early? Years is a faculty members. Were informed a lot during faculty meetings trying to make sense of dominant and display is and what the hierarchy was like but to an enormous extent you realize how much which we're on a continuum with all the other primates there we do some extraordinarily unique things but for the most part it's doing extraordinarily unique things with the basic blueprint that we share with every other primate out there and yet we seem to have some extension that does has at least in the opinion of a lot of us make us different from our cousins. MD share that or or do you think we're way more than we think we are. One of the cliches is all species are unique and spent some species or unique ear than humans are certainly way up there in that regard. I think what one keeps seeing means. We've learned more and more about we're not the only species at kills are not the only species the makes tools. We're not the only species with at least the rudiments of theory of mind a sense of just a sympathy that I think would come through is were just like every other primate out there in terms of that basic building building blocks and were utterly unlike them in terms of our ability to just abstract our behaviors. Here's our feelings over space and time by that I mean we can do something that no primate on earth ever dream of no other primate which is we can kill a member of our species whose face we never see we just press a button or for the right online dating we can fall all in love with somebody and we don't even know what they smell like. That's like no no baboon whenever that and we can feel moved moved by the plight of somebody on the other side of the planet and do something to try and make their life better we can be incredibly upset about what happens to a fictional character and we're sitting there we have to say no actually they're just pixels up on a movie screen and we're capable of having these contradictory contradictory impulses toward one another I it it. I I hope to learn from you in our conversation a little bit more than I understand now wow which is practically nothing about why we're so capable of cooperation and dominance at the same time of nurture her and torture we very often the same person can do both ends of that wide swing what what is there instead instead enables us to do it because it doesn't conform to our view of ourselves by and large no but I think a huge percentage of people are capable papal of shocking themselves how crummy their behavior can be in the right `unright circumstance and how her aerobically compassionate they could turn out to be in circumstances where they may not have expected. y'All this this capacity for extremes of char again. Our were pro-socialist. Antisocial behaviors is just without precedent in the animal kingdom will the key thing that's different. There is how how we go about recognizing relatives in everything about the evolution of behavior is built around among the key building blocks this notion of kin selection animals behave in order to maximize the number of copies of genes they leave in the next generation and some of the time you do that by reproducing yourself itself as many times as possible but some of the time you do that by helping close relatives who share genes with you do that so cooperation in like every social species out there is built along the lines of kinship so the critical question becomes if your hamster. How do you figure out who's a whole sibling blink? WHO's a half sibling who's a stranger and it's done innately instinctual hits done with Farah moons? It's done by odors and there's the whole science to that and sort of instinctual recognition of relatives is a common theme lots of other species. We can't do that. We we can't meet a cousin for the first time in our life and be able to smell that their second cousins third cousins were that's on one of the things we're good at as primate but what we're very good at the way we figure out who counts as an US and who counts as a them's rather than relying on instinct. We've got to think about it and as soon as we have to think about it we're subject to being manipulated into feeling more connected to some individuals than and we actually genetically connected by Culture Ideology Theology all that sorta stuff or feeling so so unrelated to some other fellow humans that had hardly been counseled killing a human when we do that and the mere fact that we have to think our way a through and we're subject to symbolic manipulation as who counsel us or them is where all the complexities come in The complexity seem to be really on an enormous scale I I think I've heard you say that. When you're tracking someone's behavior figuring out where the behavior comes from you have to start with it's what was happening a second before the behavior and then a whole chain of other things that have been an influence on like hormones in jeans and after go all all the way back into ancient in prehistory and that seemed like an enormous number of factors to figure out leading to a behavior but that is am I on the right track with how you look at it? absolutely you look at someone who's just done something wonderful wonderful and altruistic or brutal and savage or ambiguously somewhere in between and like a classic Human Response Ons we have this to and affects say. Why did they do that just now and when you ask that you're asking something about what neurons in different parts of their brain you did a fraction of a second ago but you're also asking about what environmental stimuli in the previous seconds to minutes triggered those neurons aunts and you're also asking what did hormone levels that morning have to do with making those neurons more or less sensitive to those triggers and then you're off and running Enduro plasticity house experienced changed his neurons and previous months then you're back data lessons in childhood childhood in fetal life which has a huge amount to do with what sort of brain you're GonNa have as an adult deciding whether or not you're GonNa do that? Critically wonderful perform critically horrible thing then even further baggy jeans come in and culture because the way you were raised within minutes of birth reflects the culture your ancestors were coming up with centuries ago what kind of ECO systems shape things cultures and then at the bottom of the barrel why we're revolved into this kind of species instead of that kind show if there is so many factors involved before you can figure out the source of a behavior. How can you possibly possibly put them all together? It's there's so many branching. It seems to me that you have to take into account well. The mindless conclusion to all all of this is where complicated like that doesn't get us very far. I'm increasingly convinced the much more the most important the conclusion from all of it is were complicated so you better be really sure and really careful in really cautious before before you decide. You understand why somebody did something especially if that's something that you're judging harshly it's like trying to judge how a movie cut to its conclusion by watching only thirty seconds of it. You're missing where all the influences came in You said something that struck me as something so important. I wrote it down immediately. You said you can't reason with someone out of a position that they weren't reasoned into in the first place that if they have I suppose you mean if they they have a feeling connection to their position and it's mainly the feeling that got them into that position. You're not going to change or affect them much with logic absolutely because you have to address it kind of okay somebody has its stance ounce. They have an opinion you disagree with the deeply they feel something about economics or social policy totally in contrast to urine. How can they believe? I believe that how can they think that and the key things to figure out what circumstances brought them to that point and and those circumstances have far more to do with emotion than they do with cognition mean huge predictors of people's political stances about social the issues revolve around how anxiety prone they are how much having their hands dirty distresses them how much much sitting down on a seat that somebody else was sitting on and it's Kinda warm and clammy does that kind of creep you out or what how much does have beauity make you anxious versus making you excited and it turns out those are hugely important predictors of people who aren't being social progresses versus Social Conservatives servivce yeah you remind me of a study where people were presented with an unpleasant smell yes and for the next few minutes they were. We're more conservative in their response to to question two. How did that work? Wonderful study came out of psychologist at L. A. Paul Bloom and others were you take people and essentially give him the questionnaire about their political attitudes about social issues economic issues shoes geopolitical issues and if they're in a room with a horrible smell of garbage in there and it turns out you can get a little like commercial vials oils of garbage smell to tidy up your home yes exactly in an even worse bodily odors than that turned out. If you put somebody in a room with a bad smell in it they tend to become more conservative about some social issues does nothing to the Geo political stances. This is the economic stances. What's that about? What is there about? Why would they do that? What's the rationale that has been proposed? There's a totally wonderful piece of neurobiology biology that helps explain that it's part of the brain called the insular CORTEX. If your your basic boring off the rack mammal with the insular the cortex is about is telling you if you've just bitten into some disgusting piece of food if it's rancid if it's toxic insular CORTEX reacts reacts triggers hold these reflexes you spit it out you gag. Maybe you throw up abuse scrunch up your face. This is all part of this mammalian response to to protect you from Gusta Torey discussed disgusting toxic spoiled food and it turns out works the same way and us and humans you stick somebody in a brain scanner and you some help persuade them to bite into this rancid whatever and insular cortex activates we can do something fancier than that. You don't give the person something disgusting to eat you prompt them to think about eating or cockroach and you activate the CORTEX home. I just just when you said that digest voted for Genghis Khan gets there proof inaction. All of this was one big experiment on you. How in what may what's the connection in between smelling something disgusting and exhibiting more conservative attitude? I don't get the connection yeah okay 'cause that comes from the the utterly amazing thing that the human insular Cortex does in addition to discussing tastes and smells or thinking about disgusting ones you tell somebody about about some Disgusting Act. The Nazis did this. The white supremacists did that. This is what happened in this massacre. This is something something heartbreaking something and the insular cortex activates us in humans it also does moral disgust and what that tells you is you look at the activity of like a single insular cortex neurons and you can tell it's just tasted some disgusting food or if it's contemplated some disgusting moral act so it makes it makes them moral of evaluation moral judgment and is that somehow somehow linked to a conservative view because it seems to me that you could have you could be disgusted at things that a more liberal view would be disgusted by and I don't see how you shifted over to a more conservative. When can you explain that great yeah well what you wind up seeing is this we associate this role discussed with moral disgust with that's why is something that's upsetting enough off makes feel queasy makes us feel sick to our stomach makes us feel like puking what you see? In terms of the political stances is this utterly league cruel great finding which is on the average social conservatives have a lower threshold for visceral disgust than and do social progressives even studies looking at the number of cleaning products in the bathrooms of social progressives versus conservatives in there's a difference. That's what you have is just on a visceral level. If you're very prone to finding all sorts of things to make you feel a little bit squeamish and a little golf and you're more prone to decide that them and their different behaviors rather than being cool or exciting were neutral. Is that much more likely that you conclude is just Kinda disgusting and it's wrong wrong wrong what happens when you hit adolescence since I've seen now in my own family a couple of generations go through adolescence and it seems to me that generally speaking their brains are controlled from outer space. Well what you've got is I mean uncertain level like all of adolescence could the explained by two neurobiological facts. The first one is that the emotional part of the brain jargon the LIMBIC system parts of the brain having to do with with the aggression with lust with love with all that stuff regions like the big deliver example the neurotransmitter dopamine in another report this free implicated. You've pretty much up to speed with your limbic system by the time you're early adolescent the party your brain that spends its time getting to the LIMBIC system and saying I know this seems like a wonderful idea. Don't do irritable. Greta believe me believe me is is the frontal CORTEX and all of adolescence is explained by the fact that the emotional brain is going full speed there and the frontal cortex in humans isn't fully wired up until you're about twenty five years old so do you think that in terms of evolution it wasn't a bad had idea to let the young generation being novelty seeking to be adventurous to take risks and maybe that's why the brain develops in that order by the way any any theory that says this is a good idea because it would have been good good for evolution is suspicious. I think because you can make a good theory about anything when I have the evidence shows yes the world of just so stories Ganglia you use e adolescence her weird. It's the time in life you're most likely to mugging Morgan Old Lady Rob a liquor store joins some nationalist fascist groupie the time in life rear most likely to devote yourself off to the wellbeing of strangers on the other side of the planet at the time of life. You're most likely like found religion or a cult. It's it's one one of a motionless extremes. I think part of it is this very primate thing we do primates when they hit adolescence. Just get handsome the pants they just get itchy they just gets so bored with like they have to groom this damn monkey one more time groomed every day of their life to scream and they get this each to pick up and go. They're sick of this old boring little all town. They want to go see the world or at the very least the troop on the other side of the Stream and I've seen this many times with my Babylon's sounds like a troop runs into the neighboring troop and they're on either side of the consum- stream and they all yell at each other for awhile and they get bored without go back the eating and everyone's back to the usual and then you spot this little squirrelly adolescent guy from your troop who's on the edge of the a stream and he can't leave it different WBAP Boone's look at all of them and he sits there for an hour and then goes back and then a week later his true Brunson to this other troop and he goes down he sits on the other side of the stream for ten seconds and anyone there who looks at him he scampers back doc and then a week later he spends the afternoon on the other side and it's chest this. It's the most exciting thing might God different babboons. I'm glad here we're going into short great great and when we come back Robert Cepal Ski and I talk about empathy where it comes from quiet sometimes hard to keep up and how to use it to break down the barriers between us and them right after this I think many of our listeners probably paid close attention to the destruction that was caused by Hurricane Dorian Allen Yeah with so much at risk it was hard not to and when you see storms are getting more intensive every year and happening more often hurricane data more vital than ever before and that's why science inch channel and Storm Chaser. Josh Morgan has a new series called hurricane man. The shoe shines a light on this alarming phenomenon in a very personal way yet josh throws himself into the pass these monster storms to get scientific readings that are pretty much otherwise impossible to harness and by putting himself in harm's way he also provides really vivid first person perspective on just how devastating these storms can be and you know Alan I love to see science channel make things clear and vivid eh which they do make sure to see the new show Hurricane Man Sundays at nine pm Eastern on science channel or on the side go lab Allen. Have you heard about babble. It's a language learning APP that will get you speak a new language quickly and with confidence. I know I really need it because I learned French when I was a kid in Paris in school but I need somebody to practice with that was a long time ago and it's very hard to get people to practice so soon as I say one one word that slightly off they'd rather speak English but babble doesn't do that Yeah Babbel's great because you learn through interactive dialogues you can protect your pronunciation annunciation in your accent and they have fourteen different languages. You can choose from including Spanish French. Italian German and the teaching method in the speech recognition and technology has been proven to be effective across multiple studies and I love this Babbel's lessons are created by over a hundred language experts. 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This is a limited time offer so own the now at vistaprint dot Com Promo Code alda this is clear and vivid now back to my conversation with Roberts opolskie what about Amethi wouldn't wouldn't which began talking about communication that seems to me as I try to figure out how the best communication takes the place. It seems to me that empathy is at the heart of it if you're trying to communicate with somebody if you don't know what they're going through while you're talking into them you could be talking to a lamppost and having the same effect. If so how does empathy happened in us. How does it develop in us? Where did it come? Why do we have any more empathy than other other primates and if so how do we get it yelp up where you see the building blocks of it and point people have spent whole career is looking at sort of the emergence of empathy and compassion Cetera in kids what you see early on is this first landmark the charge in theory of mind the first time you understand and that somebody else has something going on in their head? That's different from what you have and chimps can do this under-motivated circumstances human kids. It is reliably start doing that or any age three or four so and that's the first building block to somebody as different thoughts than you. Somebody else has different from feelings than you. They can have bad feelings when I feel good and that's not sufficient because if all you've got to that point is an extremely stream capacity for reading other people's emotions and thoughts if it does nothing more than that and that's where it stops you've just described a really good sociopath. They have amazing theories of mind in terms of being able to manipulate other people. It's something about that process of the first time somebody else's pain is your pain and again. We've got a part of the brain different part called the anterior cingulate. Thank activates if somebody's poking your finger with a pin and it activates if you're looking at the finger of a loved one being poked. Do you have to have already. I developed a certain level of empathy for your to feel the pain when somebody else's fingers poked odor is that is that one of the building blocks of you're developing empathy. I think that's one of the things that naturally emerges if it doesn't at all you're on the path to socio pathy what you get is typical landmarks when kids I get distressed at somebody else's pain when for the first time you can show their heart rate increases increases when they would. I give up a cookie to somebody else to share with them because the other person unfairly doesn't have one when Kids Zor beginning to get I e gala -tarian thinking things of that sort where it of course winds up being incredibly significant in explaining sort of our history is a species is the fact that not everybody registers with us to the same degree and not not everybody's pain count as much and development is an awful lot about being trained within the context of your your family your culture your particular temperament and threshold as to WHO's good account as an us. WHO's them who's paying matters to you Why are some of US having trouble with being empathic? I mean I I must say I'm I'm curious about and I noticed that the more empathic I am the less I find other people annoying so it's helpful for me to be more empathic but I even have developed developed exercises to try to help myself be more empathic but if I don't do them for a while I started to lose the sense of observing what the other the person is feeling or caring about it and I'm wondering why I lose it is do you think stress has a problem with no stress is important to you so this was a wonderful group up Mikio University Jeffrey Mogul colleagues who've shown sort of the rudiments of of empathy in lab rats and sort of the bits didn't humans were they have sort of an experimental model and you see something really striking king which looks so familiar which is a rat can be empathic and respond physiologically with distress to to another rat in pain the same way that we humans can be for another human but it depends on who the rat is if it's a rat that they know that They Lake Aka Dj mate if it's a rat whose genetically from the same strain as them you get this empathic response. If it's a stranger at it don't in in other words even for a rat. Not everyone's pain is equal so what you wind up doing this was a a collaboration did with that group speculating that that may be this has to do with what to strangers do to you if you're a social beast makes you feel a little stressed and you secrete this class of stress hormones called glucocorticoid the human version of Cortisol and there are a bunch of reasons to think that it might work this way what we did was we took a bunch of rats what's in those circumstances and you give them drug that blocks glucocorticoid release for a while and they suddenly become more empathic too strange rats. That's who are in pain too strange Retz yes and then best of all with the study you take your college freshman volunteers and you put them in some circumstance stance where you see more of an empathic response for individuals you just interacted with in a fun way for thirty minutes before the test versus I ranger and when you do the same thing you give him the same drug you block the glucocorticoid release and you see more empathy for strangers than you would have otherwise in other words part of our narrowing of empathy in scary circumstances novel circumstances all of that turns out the stress hormone works in the brain to narrow. Our focus is to WHO's pain matters as to who counts as an us. I suppose an increase of empathy could enable able you to bridge the gap between what you regard as us and them but there's a problem. It seems to me. Amphitheater is is not the same has doing something about the feeling Yup. Tell me about the difference as you see it. This is is incredibly important. Thing your degree of empathy just how much you're feeling somebody else's pain is not a particularly good predictor of WHO's actually step out of the line there and do something compassionate and scary and difficult. There's a huge gap between the two and people like Paul Bloom. ooh wonderfully sort of lucid aided this contrast empathy cannot be a virtue in and of itself. Yeah we had a wonderful wonderful conversation on this podcast Paul Bloom and I and it was fun to talk with Paul about empathy because he wrote that Book Against Against Empathy Yeah now where he he's gone a lot of grief for it but it's because people confuse merely feeling somebody else's pain is is not sufficient right and turns out if you were feeling somebody else's pain so much that your blood pressure's increasing your heart is racing racing in your sympathetic nervous systems making your stomach clutching. You're feeling queasy all of that. That's not a predictor for somebody who's going to step out of the crowd and do the brave intervention contrary. It's IT equivalent to burn out exactly and in a sense translating that into physiology you look somebody l. You look at somebody else's pain and you break the world into people whose heart starts racing at that point versus people who don't the ones whose hearts race are the ones. We're feeling the pain so much that the main concern becomes their own pain and feeling the pain and they turn inward. Don't act compassionately on a more were sort of cognitive behavioral level if the main point of somebody else's pain is you sit there and say Oh my God. This must be so awful for them. That's a predictor of a Compassionate Act on the other hand. If you sit there and say Oh my God it would be so awful if this were happening to me. That's the predicted with the person who says this is just way too upsetting and I'm going to change the channel how that's an interesting idea. Has that been tested Yup absolutely wonderful showing empathy it comes with a lot of different flavors and not to not to get all Buddhist on you here because like I couldn't possibly be further from my basic basic temperament but a sort of detachment is kind of a prerequisite if you're feeling somebody else's paint so this viscerally at all you're feeling is hey this hurts. Your main concern becomes what's the easiest way to stop that hurt not to make their life better not to reform societal infrastructure has to just decide. You know what that's not my problem. It's their fault. Somebody else will take care. Irvine is nothing I can do about it. I'M GONNA go back and see what I'm going to have for lunch now. So if in the way to make things better for people who are suffering it's to get a group of us who are willing to act on our embassy sounds like we have to find ways to encourage ourselves and others to have that detachment attachment that you just talked about. How would we go about such a thing? I think one of the first steps is to dissociate eight the empathy that leads to actual compassionate axe to dissociate it from the easy markers. Ooh someone who looks like me someone who eats like me who praised like me who adorned their body the way I do somebody somebody who's feeling feeling the same sort of pain that I went through and I know how often how awful that was to train people to be able to not require here similarity more easy us categorisations to train people to be able to recognize the pain eighteen and someone whose values are just unrecognizable from where you come from and that's not easy you think is any value in pointing out similarities that do exist but that seemed not to exist because there's so much them this about them that had nevertheless you can find and even though even though we voted polar polar opposites into office or tried to get those polar opposite into office we we nevertheless share many things we share love of children. We share a love of country. we believe in fairness of there are so many ways we could say to one another. You don't have to like them. You have to just notice that we're we do belong to the same tribe he yeah and it comes in unexpected ways. This is exactly where this notion of love can't reason somebody out of something they weren't reasoned into the first place comes in you know sit down and like tell somebody about all the shared shared values you have with this person view would otherwise consider them and all the ways in which they actually have the same feelings of issue a a picture of the person like giggling with their kid or like holding a puppy horror like smiling because they've just like tasted did a piece of food that they love her and that's that's the visceral level you you discover that you them loved the same game when you were little that you both loved twister that you both did this you you find those moments of Whoa I mean a prerequisite for truly recognizing the similarities with this other person is really emotionally recognizing that they are autonomous autonomous different person there wow and instead of pointing out intellectually what you share in common you actually go through some some kind of experience together even in memory or in pictures or or actually sharing meal together and loving the taste of it together that can bring you together apparently from what you say better than an intellectual listing of the ways in which similar and the gut feeling is this and just even say the gut feeling turf into this whole world of not reasoning people out of things they weren't reasoned into to the extent that we're functioning on gut feelings that gut feeling is it's these unexpected little bits and pieces of things I mean even on the level of with living in San Francisco as I do like the city is like flooded with homeless people and homeless people who by now are often homeless working poor because of the costs of rent that have skyrocketed here things of that sort and like echo co through an area. That's overrun with homeless. People and God is happening in all the ways in which our visceral briskly porcupine Archea Pine quills of like Yuck or being activated there and the knowledge that one of those people probably had had a supporting lead in their high school play most of those people at some point or other had a group of people sing happy birthday to to them most of those people opened up like a Christmas present at some point and where they were so excited that they could barely we stand it and they were eight years old before something really wrong or before all the bits of rotten luck they had caught up enough that this is where they are now before they got into drugs and wound up on the streets. I any of that that just if if one could see every homeless person who has a child got to blow out the candles on a cake and we're so happy and felt so safe in the world that they couldn't even believe that if you could see they went through that as well that would be transformative as very very reassuring to hear you say that you you moved me. I was very nice. I we unfortunately have to bring our conversation to a close does now but before we do we always ask seven quick. Questions are willing to come up with seven quick answers. They can't painless list number one. What's the hardest thing you've ever tried to explain to someone why there's no free will and why you really cannot judge anybody else's actions? I think you were explaining that to me once in one of our conversation I do you that to everyone these days. How do you handle a nosy person? let's see I probably passive aggressively invented. It's an entire false history. You've actually done that. I probably have on an claiming to be the long last honesty's Ramon off or something like that okay next question. How do you tell someone they have their facts wrong? You probably I spend a whole lot of time figuring out why those facts are so important to them and take it from there uh-huh. It's interesting now here a couple of our old favorite questions. What's the strangest question anyone's ever asked you I would say I was giving a talk? Once about my booms and Evans social behavior on how social affiliation is good for Baboon Boone stress hormone levels and somebody said don't you think it's Kinda weird that you spent decades studying that while living alone in a tent and that kind of stopped me in my tracks okay okay. How do you stop a compulsive talker looker? I don't know maybe hug them and say it's going to be okay. That's probably I'm not gonNA work though but at least in May break the stream of consciousness against a couple of questions last two that have been suggested by our listeners. How do you like to start up a real conversation with someone who you don't know at a dinner party asked him what's tougher? They most excited excited about. That's what I do. That's I asked him what they're passionate is and that's interesting. Then then then they're on right they're going. They're on and truly interesting. People are always obsessed about something and something that never in your lifetime. Would you consider like Geckos lose or Viking coins or who knows what it is. They're obsessed over or the forty three Cleveland. Indians are like some what's. What's the most interesting stuff you obsess over out there okay? Here's the last question what gives you confidence. Confidence Confidence in human future will however you would interpret it. I I always thought of it as personal confidence but a few picket well one day I'll figure out how to feel personally confident meantime lowering back humanity right so do you that's interesting you do feel confident about humanity pretty young and it's against every bit of basic wiring by have I am by nature a total pessimists and nonetheless when you sit bitten look at stuff for learning and what an awful planet this was two three hundred years ago and people who count as deserving vang our protection now the never even used to register. I duNNo. There's a little bit of room to feel confident that things are going to get better as we the hall swim. Amid the rising water levels in the middle of the United States is the common cover us well in spite of Zet. You've made me feel confident about the future of humanity and I'm grateful to one more wonderful conversation and have had with us. Thank you so much Robert always a pleasure allen has been clear and vivid. At least I hope so my thanks to discovery for being are presenting sponsor this season while the income from the ads you here go to the Center for Communicating Science at Stony Brook University just by listening to this podcast. You're contributing to the better communication of science so thank you for more information about the the older center. Please visit all the center dot org it. This podcast is wetted your appetite for more of Robert Cepal skiing you can read his recent book which is now in paperback and called behave the biology of humans at our best and worst and check out Roberts opolskie on Youtube or or you can find a wonderful tedtalk and courtesy of Stanford University an entire series of lectures on human behavioral biology. This episode was was produced by Graham shed with help from our associate producer Sarah Chase. Our sound engineer is Dan Zula are Tech Guru is Alison Costume are publicist is Sarah Hill you could subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcasts stitcher or wherever you listen for more details details about clear and vivid and to sign up for my newsletter police visit Alan alda Dot com you can also find us on facebook and instagram at clear and vivid and I'm on twitter twitter at Alan Alda. Thanks for listening bye bye next in our series of conversations. I talk with Pat Metheny. One of the world's top jazz improvisers to me. Listening is the key and whether that manifest itself in in the round that I deal in or or in our everyday interactions the way that improvising has we put it in this exalted sense of a of a guy who's standing on stage playing Bass player and drummer connects to just listening is central Padme Athenian. I compare you're not on

Alan Alda Robert US Josh Morgan Allen insular Cortex insular CORTEX Africa L. A. Paul Bloom Stanford University allen glucocorticoid vistaprint Roberts Opolskie Hurricane Doreen Hackley Hackley Carl Robertson Polski Brooklyn Madonna Kenya
#1116 Feelings of Feelings

The Adam and Dr. Drew Show

38:31 min | 1 year ago

#1116 Feelings of Feelings

"<music> thanks for listening to the atom and Dr Drew Show on podcast one at farmers insurance. We have concrete evidence that parking under an industrial cement mixer. That's just asking for trouble double seen it covered it click for more and you're at my farmer's truck insurance exchange affiliates products available in every state well. We've got a good show planned mean drew ski do backwards though yeah take a dive into that I'm curious about where all this back pain is coming from and what it has to do with our brain feels feelings would feelings feel like so. You'll get to try that on for size in sixty seconds first lifelock average household contains seventeen smart devices and many have vulnerabilities allowing attackers to remotely access then Internet connected security cameras account for almost half of the smart devices compromised by hackers Lou creepy so many threats in today's connected world. It just takes one weak link for criminals get in when personal information is exposed. Someone could use it to commit identity theft good thing lifelock identity theft protection ads the power of North security help protect against threats to your devices. You can easily see or fix on your own. It's two thousand and nineteen and we've turned the corner. We're heading toward two thousand listen in twenty. Let's get protected people with lifelock right man that's right no one can prevent all identity theft or cybercrime or monitor transactions at all businesses but lifelock would norton security can see threats you might miss on your own go to lifelock dot com or call one eight hundred lifelock and use Promo Code Adam for ten percent it off your first year. That's Promo Code Adam lifelock DOT COM or one eight hundred lifelock for ten percent off that farmers insurance we know every windshield collision has a unique sound beetle burt boop drone seen it covered it click for more the farmer's Truck Insurance Exchange Center affiliates products available in every state twenty five dollars. You get one product Oughta every month. You get the break you choose. It's odd <music>. You've heard Dick it's time for the third month Adams monthly nut this month ship it includes a bottle of vinnie's pure Vitamin Ultra Salt Hangover cure for count them for sample bags of country archerd jerky including original Turkey Mango Habanero and Teriyaki and Olga cha-cha job Blue Apron and of course the bottle of your choice. This sixty dollar value is yours for only twenty five bucks sign up for one month or keep ships coming so prep your mail box and get ready for Adams monthly not hurry we will sell out recorded live at Corolla one studios with Adam Corolla and board certified physician and addiction medicine specialist Dr Drew Pinski. You're listening to the Adam and Dr Drew Show Indiana. Get it on got to get on board. Survived isn't measure mess with specialist what I said I said Dr drew is a board <music> certified physician and I wanNA thank <hes> lifelock dot com for this half of the show box of awesome dot com as well ziprecruiter and Pluto TV drew. I I stumbled into something out in the hall. I WANNA bounce it off you. Because it's fresh Disgu- I heard you yelling about back pain. Is that where we're going. Yes okay. Are you screaming about it. I hear a lot about young men like back pains and bulging disks and stuff like that and I think our forefathers were like farmers and loggers and they had to go out and till the soil and I'm saying to these guys I've never seen seen a painting of a guy from eighteen sixty five holding his back trying to get out of bed right. He's always got a further decayed. It's got a sixth sixth sickle in us. Oh help what is Jerry Gary. What is still this versus sickle site? A site is sickle with a long handle. That's right yeah these guys had seis and they were like doing the two-man handsaw back and forth origen lifting the would after no one ever had a bad back and now is that a function of building it up right building it up in building endurance and strength into the daily activities. I started when you were a kid or the ones that fell by the wayside just kind of died I or they had bad backs and they didn't depict them in the paintings of the day. It doesn't make for good are I must say yeah yeah but you didn't like. Do you think they had those guys where there were like heads Aqa. We're doing a barn raising on Saturday and he was like Whoa Whoa yeah. My back is really do won't be any what time you guys putting the food food out. He didn't see everyone I know would be in that boat yeah. I can't do the barn raising but you guys are serving the food at what time one o'clock I'll be there so you guys got started seven and then you'll take a break about one shall be there about twelve five when I went to catch stuff when it's coming off the ground moving slow right right so was there's much so when I wasn't depicted in like literature certainly in any story where. Somebody talked about being leader by bad okay so the people I know with the bad backs. There is no straight line to their professional wrestling career that is in the past now. There's a bad back in the press professional wrestling career Colorado. What I'm saying is this I talked to people young men who like have bulging disks and things like that and I don't know where it came from because they live a sedentary light but maybe that's the problem right? I think I think that is part of the problem that people are exercising the art into endurance lifting and sort of strengthening their their body unless they're really an exercise and I guess Bob People are not I plus plus. We now have this big pannos in front. That's beheading are lower doses right and you have talked about this over years ago about some of this pain stuff may have something to the blood supply number. There was a doctor Sarno. Every was stern has begun him that had a whole theory about it being an issue of localized blood flow which may or may not have something to do with it but you're right. Also there are structural changes but by the way if you if if I did an M._R._i.. On you and me right now I think we'd see a little bit of disk bulging that sort of normal for upright middle aged persons. It's just always there what they do though as they do the painting go it's your bulge and then even if there was like a discernible like a really obvious bulge was pushing on the nerve like mechanically you could see it anatomically. Guess what happens to that. He gets better by itself. <hes> you just rested for it gets better now. It can be pretty awful in the meantime but it does typically get better. There's also obviously an emotional psychological component right to his well. There's an addiction component to it as well. I would argue that the it's an addiction thing but really it's the opiates that start going and make the pain worse and then the addiction kicked kicks in right but I'm just saying I don't. I've never heard you discuss back pain. We have over the years most now that we've discussed it. I'm saying you discuss your your own and I am. I am chronic back pain. I mean crime since I was twenty four. I mean like really like where I can't do when it kicks in. I can't it's there you just you just don't talk about. I don't even think about it. I've okay I have back right now so it's like it's kind of like me and my mom and my dad like. I never thought I'd bring it. Never something that I think about all but I wanNA weigh you down my problem right. You would right here that with anybody because why would you <hes> so do you your back pain constant and my dad had terrible spinal stenosis in his neck and low back. Maybe it's the sharing it apart well. I also don't feel like I don't know you tell me. Have I ever told you like my back or my like. Never I've never really talked about a physical anything no for the most part no because my feeling is like at Vinik addict something that we talked about but that's not focus on that it just why would you talk about unless it was something interesting. Well I think Geico or disabling and you really trouble well. I think what happens is the more if you're going to the more you talk about back pain the more back pain you're gonNA have so I'd like to kind of limit the discussion personally will there's a whole field of the the when you walk into that field of pain it gets very complicated very quickly and one of the let me just do a little sketch about one tiny aspect of it which is a region of the brain called the insular cortex the insole what is what was the episode we did with Angra African. I can't pronounce your name Gary <hes> and the answer Cortex is what gives pain its valence Nachos its importance but it's it's emotional content. It's SORTA like is part of the brain that gives you the feeling of feeling right that makes sense yes yes so it's called the insular Cortex of part of our brain that is gives you the feeling of feeling and if things have happened to you growing up trauma that kind of stuff the feeling of feelings that are intense can be overwhelming traumatizing Indra Indra Indra vis contests scantest. She's GonNa he's going to get the EPO so it's an interesting. I'm preoccupied thinking about that part of the Brain Li oh well good because I don't as you know experience things or feel things I heard and story immune function Amara Essy if you haven't Cortex had a dentist look in my mouth a couple years ago and he's like Oh boy and he said this which no one ever wants to hear all the dentist looks in your mouth and goes he must have a high I threshold for pain because he was looking at something that would know the shit out of everyone else and for me. It's more like I'll see you. When I you know when something opens up the way you aware it was there I had a cracked to you're aware and it was is it was like a little loose and it was a little posse and it was it was a little bit of a mess and I sucked it up for six just went about my day for six months and then eventually the tooth was getting looser and I was like I think this is going to have to be pulled than reworked Imbaba blond and the guy looked looked at it? When you've been live he was looking at it going? You've been living with this like you've been eating and stuff like yeah. It's fine like I don't. It's not that I- I grit my teeth pardon pardon the Pun and and push through it as I wasn't experiencing. What you're looking at wasn't not what I was feel? So which is what's interesting and all this so. Let's say somebody else who's highly sensitive to the experience of pain. Their insular CORTEX goes off that a pussy or is that time he was experiencing something different and I would argue the ladder I I wasn't experiencing any pain so I wasn't right pushing through anything Norio interesting. That point is if if you had. Trauma let's say and it made you highly sensitive to the experience of pain you're having that experience of misery overwhelmed and panic and yeah or and and you can push through that but you're still having those experiences and we don't have it. We just SORTA like Nah. I I have to almost go my let me think about this. Oh yeah there's a pain down there yeah. It's it's pretty bad bothers me throughout the day kind of aware of it but <hes> yeah don't give it no regard yeah interesting well. I'm also the worst guy I like when somebody wants to go to the emergency room always like go home and lay down fine like people get nauseated and want to go to the emergency room and I'm like Tisco home and throw up. Why have to do that in the emergency? Get what's match. I've never emergency rooms. I mean way over utilized grotesquely realize it's basically it's like people calling nine one one because the cats in a tree. It's like think about the emergency room you when you show murder it's got it starts with the word emergency. That's the way I look at. This is not emergency. 'cause you Yak so emergencies are what they are there to serve so they're going to get served first so hey you're going to wait a long time. Be just walking in there. You're paying for all that equipment all that personnel your bill will reflect all that you paid for when all you need is one doctor to pay attention or a nurse practitioner to listen to you for ten minutes and send you home or send you the if that's what's necessary but it's like it's a forty five dollar visit versus a forty five hundred visit. I remember a million years ago. Ozzy was working at my house and his Nicaraguan and he didn't have health health insurance and he's like a headache upset stomach and he was like throwing up or whatever it is and he's like I'm going to the emergency room as I just go home. Just go home ticket Rome by the way that's my God to heal that he'll reach Yale it. You just click you get a doctor at your home with into us. Just go home. Just go home and relax. He's like I'm going to and I was like okay you went emergency room and then he'd sit around there for three hours and then they give you some bromide and you go home and they tell you to do what I told you drink S. and then go home and lay down and say feel and then about a month later he's like he comes up to me. He's like a middle. I got a bill for what it's like for the emergency room. I'm ahead my upset stomach whatever it was like at seventeen seventeen hundred dollars. Could you help me out. You know he'll does it. Hook Ni- tried this. Go home and lay down why nine dollars all in or your shirts covers. Why are we going to the emergency room for everything all right? If you come to your house they'll come. The you know the the point the people I don't understand how to use the healthcare system it can we can we can we say this when it comes to the health care system or nine one one once in a while people float an idea and idea is if you're gonNA use the police in a frivolous way then you're going to get punished so if you're going to just call the cops on your neighbor because their stereos a little too loud when you could have just gone gone over there and asked him to turn it down or whatever it if you're gonNA use the cops like your own Personal Gestapo which I have had from neighbors I I had cop show up at a New Year's Party at my house at about nine ten in the evening on New Year's which was on a Saturday night. They take a good hour so somebody called these guys at eight o'clock on a Saturday on New Year's Eve to call the cops a bunch of white people doing the hustle. The backyard like there was nothing going on. Here's how much there was going on. When the COP showed up I said to the COPS? I'll I'll turn the stereo down and the guy said or not yeah it's fine. It's not you're not doing anything saw a bunch of people wearing tuxedos and dresses in the backyard doing the hustle like now that fucking neighbor who decided to stay home on New Year's Eve on Saturday night in wanted watch murder. She wrote didn't like the idea that there was noise coming around so they call the cops. They shouldn't be calling the cotton now. Hold on I would submit. We must have something in place that if view are going to call the cops and use them as your own personal security there must be a price to pay for you. Literally should charge them right right then some do-gooder pussy will go but hold on what if that same neighbor then looks out the window into the alley behind her house sees a young woman being violently stabbed and raped and hesitates slippery slope to call the cops because she doesn't go fuck it. Ah then that person's a fucking retard then we have to this isn't that we need rules. We're human we can figure it out but I can tell you what what I find. Confusing is there is a punishment for going to the a yarn frivolously. You get a huge bill that don't need to get that teach people so I don't I don't know but I wish we could coach people up on the nine one one calls and coach people up on the going to the E._r. absolutely and and it wouldn't be well then what if they impale themselves on some rebar and there were scared to go like that's not that's not how people work they would go in that particular case but with the sniffles or upset stomach they wouldn't go right and don't there's so many things we could do to fix things I don't I don't get why why don't we use those freeway sign for something other than click it or ticket right. I'm GonNa Tease you drew. I'm going to tease this what percentage image of people travelling under the click it or ticket electronic freeway sign look up and go ooh. I forgot fast my seatbelt. Thank you state of California. I shall now buckle do. Or not and I shall now buckle my seat belt okay. Let's say a percentage or per thousand cars that travel under that sign what percentage I know what percentage per ten thousand vehicles but what what how many Gimme number on ten it'll still break into a percentage Gimme a number ten thousand vehicles that pass asa under that sign with a call the action click it or ticket how many out of the ten thousand is a person that goes oop. That's a good idea. I forgot away all right coming up with that numbers like coming up with absolute zero. Oh go ahead. Write Down Your Number Okay I. I'll tell you guys about <hes> bespoke post box of awesome when you're grinding away at the office or hang out with friends no time to think about upgrading upgrading your style. That's why I love my new box from a box of awesome from bespoke post <hes> you get it every month. It's a it's an experience. I'm trying to think hold your ears and they've got the cantor box. I liked a lot also got the sort of outdoorsy with the really good <hes> blade switch switch played like a pocket knife navy seal mhm kind of quality anyway you got a box of awesome dot com get started visit box of awesome dot com answer few short questions help get a feel for your style. Each box goes for under fifty bucks but as more then seventy bucks worth a unique gear. It's all the best stuff do for yourself. Do it for others and you'll get one on the first of each month. If you don't like it you have five days to change color sizes. Whatever ever add extra goods if you're not feeling it <hes> that that months Bach simply skip it? It's bespoke post box of awesome right man to receive twenty percents off your first subscription box Goto box of awesome dot com and enter Code A._D._S. E._D._S. at checkout that's box of awesome dot Com Code A._D._S. for twenty percent off your first box bespoke post theme boxes for guys that give a damn all right drew what percentage I'm going to be going on ten thousand in cars passing under one of those signs. How many folks actually go oh? Thanks for the heads up well humbly. I don't think you would likely encounter one thousand so I would put it at about point <unk>. Only one per ten thousand right puts it about one pretend million right. Maybe one per million I may be off by decimal point. It's impossible because you cannot make it down your driveway up your street without your car are having a seizure. If you haven't put your seatbelt on not only that you're assuming that if somebody is that out of it that they didn't succumb to that pressure of the vehicle mandating it that they then would be overcome by the sign and influence to like Oh okay then well look. There's three options. There's people wearing their seat belt which case it's redundant. which is everybody then? There's people who the chimes been going went off inside the car and the lights been flashing for last ten miles before they got on the freeway then it's redundant or it's not redundant. It's it's not going to get them to change if already made this decision and then there's so chemically and mentally impaired that nothing things get through it still big zero Burger meanwhile we could be given a little heads up on <hes> left. Lane is for passing or turn ride on a red or don't abused nine one one or don't go to the emergency room unless it's an emergency like we could be doing that with the citizens here now now we got click it or ticket. Wow wait years it all right <hes> Steve Thirty four Atlanta those have already dropped trial. What's going on <hes>? I was wondering <hes> I'm not a millionaire you guys both are <hes> so as a frugal middle-class Gent at the airport the other day and we got McDonald's before a flight so we ordered a value meal and we split it where share the drink share the fries she my wife <hes> ate the sandwich and then I I ordered a single sandwich itself because the fries and the drink was enough for the two of us and as I did that to save money but because I wasn't that Hungary and didn't want to waste all the food I said to her. Even if we were millionaires I think I would still do that because I wouldn't want to waste the food even though the easier to just quickly order to value meals and so as millionaires. I know you like to not waste food. Is that something you currently practice or would practice. If you did order something simply to not waste food food in your way you may have become out of one of Adam's favourite people lexicon a sort of a rare right after my of my waking life it spent around getting stuff. That's in my fridge. That got me old home. That's been sitting there too long out of the fridge. I had a conversation I make notes. I make proclamations. I had a conversation with Olga this morning before I left for the day I said Olga do not cook dinner tonight. We have ribs a bunch of ribs brisket. I had this one <hes>. I've learned basically to keep walking but I had this one where I order everything because I just assume Lynette just gonNA order way too much stuff and then what's good piles of it and people don't like to eat the same thing two two nights in a row at my house because you know if you lived in Thailand you might have Thai food on Monday night but then it'd be Mexican food on Tuesday and then Chinese on and then Taco night would be Thursday and then it'd be Yorkshire. Putting on because you wouldn't eat Thai food every day right that's not culture and if you look at the this world's history. It's never been like that. Never been that way so it's why break the chain. So why would you put so my thing is like I ordered too much much Chinese. I shall eat Chinese until I'm done with the Chinese so I had this great exchange with Lynette where I said look. We're GONNA order beef ribs or an order barbecue said there about seven people eating here Saturday night said to ribs person now you figure out I don't know seven people there's eight people had some guests over whatever some people aren't GonNa have the ribs. Most people will to be ribs per soul. I got seven people. That's fourteen okay got. It got it. Okay <hes> everyone had a whole bunch of ribs and now there's sixteen ribs are going into the refrigerator because I don't know what what I have no idea what she ordered but she just ordered like thirty five ribs or something I don't. I don't know how that works but I do know that that is how it works and I've now figured out the part where I go. Hey there whole bunch of ribs of what happened to the two person that's a that's a waste of energy so I'll just order the rips next time but either way with a pile of ribs and before I left the house this morning I was like Oh. You're not cooking in the fridge downstairs in the garage. We got ripped. We've got a bunch of ribs. Go get those ribs. Bring them up heat them up. That's what we're eating tonight now again. It might be me and Olga alone eating the ribs because other people had the rips other aw somehow can't do it two nights in a row not really probably not I don't know but yes I first off. I don't like the ugliness of slaughtering an animal and then taking its parts in throwing them away yeah for the sake of slaughtering the Hannibal I don't. I don't like the way that feels. There's a chef's table episode with the and it's this guy that was going to be a veterinarian. He was in love with animals and saving himself and his dad was a butcher and he was going off to the big city to be a veterinarian. His Dad died at take over the family business and he made it his career to sort of raise these and with dignity and be sure that every piece of them was used for consumption right and then he has this sort of symbiotic philosophy about the whole thing is really interesting. I first off it look. It's ugly to throw away mash potatoes and rice but it's really really ugly to throw away something. That was a lot I completely agree with. You and I think throwing away of any food at any income level. Any tax bracket is ugly American Shit and I don't liked I am with you and Steve. Did you ever see or maybe you haven't the <hes> Warren Buffett documentary. I forget where it is and it's probably GonNa Hulu or something but in the opening minutes he you follow him in his little. You know ten year old Cadillac to McDonald's and he has three cups. One is dollar eighty nine second cups to twenty-seven cups to eighty five where he depending on how he's doing in the market. He's worth eighty nine point four billion dollars today but he still if I'm making some bad choices my movement good. He just restricts himself to a Muffin and a coffee. He's feeling large made some good moves. He gets the full two eighty five mcmuffin and coffee and he to this day. Every day starts that way. Let's go batty but it is interesting the so I I I completely agree. There's two there's two fill is a gracing ever happen to me. Fill the dog. I should tell you why after after I hi Tony Ziprecruiter hiring was tough multiple job sites stacks of resumes confusing review processes today. It's easy one place one step ziprecruiter dot com slash A._D._S. ziprecruiter sends you over one hundred of the Web's leading job boards they send your job there one hundred leading job boards and ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invites them to apply for your job. Applicants come in Ziprecruiter analyzes each one spotlights top candidates. It's you never miss a great match. You know what's coming in you know the qualities and they point your attention to the ones that alacrity exactly the ones you want four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a qualified candidate within the first first day crazy ziprecruiter dot com slash A._D._S. A._D._S. is where you go. It has changed everything in the job market right Matt. That's right and right now. Our listeners can try ziprecruiter for free of this exclusive web address ziprecruiter dot com slash A._D._S.. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash A._D._S.. ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM slash A._D._S. Ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire. I don't feel changed my life just watching him swim over your outer came by Phil went for dip but I that dog is changed my life because I had this problem which is I would always finish everything on my plate but if I had eggs or beef or something there would still be as slick slick of protein left on the plate and I didn't like throwing that slick of protein away now I wasn't going to take a piece of sourdot toasts and like mop up or anything it was just like whatever's left on the plate that Sheen of egg yolk or beef beef fat or whatever fail follows me into the kitchen. I put it down the ground. He licks it clean satisfying second favorite animal in the House Olga Sh you put it out for her to she. We'll take every- chicken bone in every chicken thigh pulls off every piece of skin in gristle and everything off to the bone is clean and then she puts it in a little container and she saves. Was it for fill to like if he wants his medicine or whatever whatever that is like that whole thing and when I come in and I see her in the kitchen and she has like a ziplock bag and it's now full of little junk that was just laying on top of everyone's plate like getting ready for the garbage I love of it and when people chuck food especially look especially out animal products I grew but I look at it as like when I see people litter people like driving down the street like fast food toss out the way and I'm like what would would what are you doing. Can you do this. I have no thoughts Cisco Weird and what. How do we coach people? It is that that chrome Magni way of walking through life without being conscious right. We'll out of us do that or revolve guilty but at some point here I guess so <hes> Steve Yes guys. It's interesting. You say that 'cause I'm on my daughter eats. You know right around time we do in his eighteen months and we have me you know vegetable sociable starch usually and I usually tossed the vegetables that you say starch but if there's ever any bit of meatball or anything left I'll always for the last three or four and eat them before the same shows us. Steve shows us. There's hope for humanity well you know. The meat is quite a bit more expensive. Usually the protein is than the starch so it's win win or you don't want to have it to be lose-lose but I am nutty crazy about that stuff and <hes> I don't like that. It's considered some sort of emotional liability. I mean I it's well. Let's put it this way. Do you think I'm revered at my home for my frugal nece and my a ernest attempts at saving the planet like do you think I'm that or is it like Oh. Please leave it alone. In my entire families like Oh hey nutjob like I don't think it makes me nutty old man Corolla just weaving his cane around I don't I don't like the porch light on when it's light outside. I used to obsess over it at the man show. I'd be the last person to walk into that stupid. Building Eighty people going in the fucking can porch I would go. Will you shut the porch light and they go. We don't even notice it and I'd go shot at and they'd go. We're not you're not paying for it. It's like I don't care. It's light outside. The switch is right next to the door. Just shut it now. Is it the lack of conscious being conscious or and is it as also the waist or is it just the waste. It's probably the lack of being conscious that bothers me all right. I got Hot Laurie Partridge take free. Oh so good hot Laurie Partridge. I think something that's going to open your eyes about the partridge family wait. I don't bring up my own family and I don't bring up departure tramway but I'm gonNA make an exception. We've we've got hot parts. Maybe talk for like a month. Well I've been I've been sitting on it for a while. All right you guys can check out me doing live standup July twenty six twenty seven twenty eight. That's Montclair California Pasadena California Pasadena Agora Hills coming up you gotta am crawl Dot Com for all the live shows my stand up specials and all that kind of stuff and chassis for all the movies. What do you got before? I say you broadcast with anybody Duccio for two years. Three years felt like three years. It was really never mentioned the partridge family entire time he was now. I told him I told him I it wasn't in reruns. I told them I remember him being funny. It's a funny comedic actor child all right so go dot dot com family pods there and check out so they'll next for doctor say this is Corolla Digital Pluto T._v.. The leading free streaming television service. 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The enigma of time

All In The Mind

00:0-1 sec | 2 years ago

The enigma of time

"This is an ABC podcast. You know that time is constantly taking away. Why is it then that time can drag by excruciatingly when you board. And then again, at flies by when you least wanted to time perception memory and the south are absolutely intertwined. So we only perceived the passing of time in relation to the events that we've experienced as individuals. And then we perceive getting older in relation to having clear demarcations chunks of time that we can estimate have elapsed since we've experienced other forms of events. When people have to judge ration- of many seconds intervals through the feeling of our body over time. We sense duration. And that's why in boredom because we overly sensing our own body feelings time expense a lot. Perhaps we could by virtue of some of these periods and become masters of the way in which we experienced time. Cognitive neuroscientists Marin Irish and psychologist, Mark Whitman you with all in the mind on our in online Malcolm today, the Nika of your experience of time. Scientists. I began to study time perception experimentally in the late nineteenth century, but now interest in the way we perceive time and the brain processes involved is having a revival psychologist, Mark Whitman studies, human time position at the institute for frontier areas in psychology and mental health in Freiburg Germany using psychological and brain scanning techniques. He's found out how much time we can estimate with any accuracy up to two to three seconds. So very short periods of time. Actually people are quite accurate now, so the can involuntarily tap with their fingers for the certain amount of time they can judge durations and the explanation is that up to three seconds you within a time range where you some sort of used to do sensory motor timing. So you're walking talking. Sports music mountain, climbing, whatever. So within this motoring of your behavior, you're very accurate because you have to react precisely press a button at the right point with your steering wheel in the car. You have to be, of course very accurate to avoid accidents. But then beyond that, even if you're talking about ten fifteen seconds, people subjectively tend to get more lost and time and they get very fuzzy judgments. They still no real consensus in the science of time perception about how and where in the brain, Tom is processed. However, Matt Wittman is excited by his own theory of subjective time perception. You'll he more from him later about how he relates time perception very closely to the physical body. Even though you know that time is measurable and finite. Your perception of it varies widely. Neuroscientist. Marin Arush is associate professor at the Brian and mind center at the university of Sydney, our perception of time is linked to a number of different factors. So it's been suggested that our moods can have a huge influence on the way that we perceive the passing of time. So we know that as well, the activities that we have concurrently at play at any one time can also influence the way that we perceive had. The events of our day are unfolding and the speed at which we're preceding these events. So for example, we know that when we have less to do and we have time on our hands. This can actually feel excruciating because our idle brain sort of wondering when the next event is happening, what's coming next and it can feel almost painful sometimes to have too much time on your hands. Also, the old Adagi of watched pot never boils if we're waiting for something to happen with filling that time for our selves. The time can dye-laced and actually feel as though it's been a lot longer injuries than actually was. And at the same time, attention may play a big role again and how he experienced different events. So if we are multitasking extremely busy, then we can have this time contraction effect where the day seems to go by extremely quickly and we can't figure out where all those hours went. So it has been suggested that maybe this is attention largely modulated by the fact that we only have an allocated amount of attention that we can direct to what we have ongoing at the time. And so when we have this finite set of attentional resources and they're currently used, then our ability to monitor and keep track of time and keep track of minutes and hours is much less likely to be able to be as engaged as when we have on our hands. One phenomenon will I've noticed is that when I'm working at the GM and our sit myself a period of time to do something with exertion, the time seems to drag on watching the time. I'm trying not to. Think about the time. So why is that wanting to pass time with an activity, but we don't seem to have the control over how we perceive it again, I think this relates latte to motivation, and so some of the time perception theories that are in the field at the moment, talk about the role of goals and motivation in terms of how we perceive time. So in the gym, I mean, assuming that that's not your favorite activity in the world. It's the idea that we're doing something to to kill the time into pastime. And it's been suggested that the way in which we sort of culture activities in a motion or positive and negative terms can influence actually how we perceive the jury of those events. So for example, if you're looking forward to invent it can seem that the time is dragging and that it can't get here quickly enough. So child's looking forward to Christmas, for example, if you're not looking forward to something and you have a negative appraisal of an upcoming event, like giving. A speech or having to presentation at work. The days can just roll by extremely quickly and all of a sudden you're there. And so it's this positive versus negative appraisal of the event that we're looking forward to or not looking forward to can really influence then anxiety or motivation. And whether the time feels that it's, you know, dragging or actually moving very quickly. So emotion seems to really color our experiences. And we know this from the memory literature that emotional events are remembered in indelible detail, so they can be extremely exquisitely, vivid and profound these experiences on. We take them through our lives with us, and they confer a sense of who we are and a sense of identity. Our perception of time seems to hinge upon the emotion that was experienced at the time of the event. So for example, we know that this time dilation effect seems to be particularly enhanced when people have negative emotional experiences. So. Particularly traumatic events or harrowing events, and we know that people who've experienced tax or particularly traumatic car crashes will say that the whole event plays in a almost in slow motion and that the time it just seems to have gone on for hours rather than just a few brief moments. And so expert enters of taken different approaches to sort of stressing people out and trying to understand their perception of time during negative experiences. And it seems to be it's more function of our memory systems again. So when we're afraid are magdala, which is very evolution reason of old structure in the brain, it's shaped like an almond and it's deep inside the brain. It's really important for a motion experiences. And when the MacDill fires in relation to negative are fearful experiences, it actually enhances our ability to lay down the details of that experience. So in the car crash example. UIL are magdala would fire. We would start to become really attuned to all of the details in our environment and very vivid vox of memory is created. So I percents of time at the point of the experience is actually as it would be in everyday life, but it's replaying of the event which happens in much more drawn out a lengthier way in much more vivid detail which actually would confer an adaptive benefit for us in terms of our evolutionary history that we would remember these important events in much more detail. So it's a trick of memory. The event is experienced in real time, but are reliving of appears to be much more stretched out and slower on. Sure. You'll agree that time seems to speed up exponentially as you get older one popular explanation for this is known as the proportional theory. It was put forward by Paul Janie in the eighteen hundreds, hey, suggests that we see time in proportion. To the length of time with Bain alive. So one year out of the five year olds live seems much longer than one year out of an eight year olds live. But Marin Ari says, these doesn't account for the fact that we actually feel time speeding up as where experiencing events in our lives. Time has gone quickly only on reflection. One of the more current theories then is that memory has a huge factor to play in the way that we perceive time. And that basically our lives are punctuated by key events that define who we are and that we have much more of these forms of events when we're younger. So you have your first time experiences like your first date, your first kiss getting married your first child and that these are so central to our identity that we really remember them in vivid detail, and we have less of these experiences than as we get older. So we can feel like we've moved a lot further away from that defining period and the time has moved on. Lot more quickly. So that is really based on a very close relationship between our time perception and our memory. Absolutely. So memory seems to be quite a cornerstone of our ability to perceive time. And then we see alter time perception in populations who have disrupted memory or memory dysfunction. What are the main areas where people's time perception end memory out disrupting the certainly in Alzheimer's disease, that would be one of the most that have canonical conditions in which memory is compromised. There hasn't been a lot of literature investigating time perception in the dementia, but certainly the studies that have looked at this have suggested that there are definitely problems in being able to estimate the duration of events and being able to calculate time duration. And again, it's been suggested that time is perhaps perceived as being speeding off in Alzheimer's disease because there are less of these events that the individual can remember to again, break up there. Early lights. And so when they're looking back over the recent period, which is where the memories are most vulnerable and Alzheimer's disease, in fact, is nothing there to draw upon. And so the individuals, again, looking further back over their lifespan and wondering how that is so far away from the present moment. And that time then is perceived as having passed much more quickly on a day to day level and Alzheimer's. Again, the inability to actually lay down new vents into experience in code new memories that may give the impression that time is passing much more quickly. And so individuals end up being much more present focused because memories are unable to be retrieved late, Dan viciously Marin Irish. You with all in the mind on our in. I'm Lynn Malcolm today the puzzle of time. Why does it seem to pass it such different rates depending on what else is going on for you? So colleges, Mark Whitman studies, time perception that the institute for frontier areas in psychology and mental health in Freiburg Germany. He says that we all have type of internal clock, but your specific approach to time can't be explained by individual brain differences. However, you'll perception of time is related to your level of impulsiveness. So it is a really strong relationship between time perception impulsively. I think every parent knows this, yeah, with children who just want when are we arriving when on the car yet? Are we there yet? When does the TV program starter? So this waiting time is something in general, more impulsive individuals have problems with because they cannot stand to wait. And what happens is that time expands into rations objective to ration- and people want to have the end of a waiting time. And so this is a very clear association insci- who could say more impulsive individuals, they overestimate duration, and they feel that the passage of time to move on more slowly with all the consequences that they then have some of erotic responses or leave the room or get fidgety or get angry, and you have all these other things like aggression. Which come together with impulsivity. And what about boredom? The relationship between feeling boredom and one's sense of time. Boredom, of course, is maybe actually the paradigmatic example of how subjective feelings and subjective time are related, because what is happening in boredom is your very much related to yourself and your bodily self. You're not distracted by entertaining activities. Again, it's a waiting situation may be and you don't know what to do. You can do anything exciting, and then you are focused on yourself, your bodily self. Also, you suddenly get more aware of yourself and then time stretches, and this is I think a key to the standing of how time is generated subjective time is that maybe subjective time is generated through the body itself, and also, of course, through the brain areas that are related to the bodily self. And this one is actually my idea and the idea of other scientists that Fru insular cortex activity that's certain brain region, the insulin, very nice name because means island of the brain which is responsible for integrating all the bodily signals at because of insular cortex functioning. We sent our self if we're feeling hot cold, if itchy, if thirsty hungry or have pain, then too insular is very active because it gets all the information from the body. But then also we have shown in our studies that the insular cortex is also related to subjective time when people have to judge duration of many seconds intervals. Also insular cortex activity can be seen that means that through insular cortex activity, meaning through the feeling of our body over time. We sense duration. And that's why in boredom because we're over. Vally sensing our own body feelings, time expense a lot. So can you explain some of the study and the research that you've done that brings you to this conclusion around the relationship between body and sense of time. The initial spark was a study actually doing with impulsive individuals. So we wanted to have long time intervals so that people really would feel empty time actually was about nine seconds eighteen seconds intervals which are quite long also in the hammer ice scanner environment which hasn't been done before we really wanted to have this because we want to later study impulsive individuals which also did. But then for the first study, we just took normal students with different levels of impulsivity. We didn't look into impulsively itself then had them judge to ration- of three, nine and eighteen seconds intervals. And this is where we showed how the accuracy in judging durations of these intervals was related to insular cortex function. So the insular, as I said, this primary intercept of cortex, what does interception mean? Interception means the feeling of the body. Itself, and this region was awesome. Wolf in time perception. So our into predation then was that because this was still open question, the mystery we wanted to solve is maybe subject of time is generated through the feeling of the bodily self, and this was the beginning. And then later we also showed that when we looked at physiology measures like the heart rate, breathing rate, we could also show that the breathing rate on the heart rate where related to subject of time. So the breathing rate, we have some sort of control over how fast we breathe. But the heart rate is actually not that easily controllable or not directly controllable, but still we could show that when people had to judge the duration. Again, eight seconds, twenty seconds. So in this time range that heart rate slowed down while people were judging duration and the slowing down of heart rate stopped at the end of the interval. So. We cannot control the slowing down or speeding up the Fajar dre, but nevertheless it was involved in the judging of the ration-. So this was a very strong indicator that our physiological states, our body states are actually involved in judging duration. And so that's very related to being self conscious than even is it also related to consciousness itself? Yeah, yeah. So you could even say self conscious, for example, that's also has been shown in studies when people are embarrassed. The social situation that subjectively time expanse that become suddenly self aware on. This also relates probably too insular function, the become self aware of themselves of embarrassment. Indissociable situation. And then time sudden expands time slows down. And so you could even say also the definition of consciousness consciousness is not the individual experience of yourself in a world, but all. Always relation to others. So the idea could also be that how does conscious evolve through social interactions because we get aware that other people are watching us and we're in intact with others, and that consciousness arises from the social interaction. And so again, we have consciousness bodily feelings and social interactions which create the self-consciousness since you've made the connection between the body and l. position of time, how do you suggest we can use this psychology of time to our advantage in extending and expanding our experience of life. If someone is totally stressed out in his work life, and he feels ohi Connor cope with his work schedule so tight and I cannot cope with his anymore. They always do say is giving a paradoxical intervention and say, now leave the room, go out of the office building. Eve is just five minutes. You then feel yourself again, you're then out of this auto pilot mode out of the stress mode and sadly time passes very slowly again, because then you feel yourself you could say insular cortex functioning is coming back to your awareness because you feel about yourself. Again, what also happens through this pauses is that something is actually organizing itself in your brain, and you may not even be aware of it. But then when you come back to your workplace, not only you have this feeling of out. Actually time can pass very slowly, but also some things have rearranged in your thoughts and you the know better how to cope with these things. So these individual pauses in between think of ERI, healthy, just get out of this autopilot mode and this helps a lot. I think. Not Whitman from the institute for frontier areas in psychology and mental health. In Freiburg Germany. He's book is called felt time the psychology of how we perceive time. The ability to perceive time accurately is related to behaviors and social functions that you probably take for granted such as communication and predicting events. It's known that in some clinical conditions such as schizophrenia and Parkinson's disease time perception is compromised. Murari. She gets another example. One of the syndromes that's probably most interesting from a time perception perspective is that of autism. And so we know that children with autism actually particularly sensitive to delays, and they find it very stressful to have to delay gratification or to waste. And it's been suggested that their time perception and their inability to actually gauge the passing of time in the same way as we would makes any sort of lag between a request and the air come seem absolutely intolerable. And so it's been suggested that perhaps children and adults with autism of developed ways of coping and some compensating strategies such as using takes or tapping or stereotype behaviors to fill this large chunk of time that they're perceiving between their request and actually the come that they're looking for. And so it seems that even a second for a child with autism may be really intolerable, whereas they will fill the time then with these certain behaviors. To try and overcome their unease and their stress. That's interesting seems to relate to some of the work that my Whitman's doing. He's looking at how time positions very much related to our bodily movements. Yeah, I think that's an interesting parallel in that these individuals who have autism may actually be using their body as their own internal sort of pacemaker, their own internal clock. Whereas we tend to rely much more on the external environment like watches and alarms. And so maybe it suggests that when other cognitive resources are compromised that we need to retreat to our internal mechanisms that are more physically oriented such as in the case of autism where they're using their own means of tapping or watching or vocalisations to try and fill the time and make it more meaningful for themselves. And I guess that's something that we would all due to some extent in his since time is embodied. Absolutely. Yeah. There's a huge move. Moment towards looking at embodied cognition and how we can understand all of these manifestations of purely cognitive functions, but more in terms of highway manifest physically as well and what we can do to support these functions in our everyday lives. And how do you think it relates to the sense of ourselves and perhaps even l. consciousness. I think time perception, memory and the self are absolutely intertwined. So we only perceive the passing of time in relation to the events that we've experienced as individuals. And then we perceive getting older and relation to having clear sort of demarcated chunks of time that we can estimate have elapsed since we've experienced other forms of events. So I think the passing of time sort of crucial to conferring offensive identity as we age, and then that might be why we feel, you know, so rueful or why we feel that time is passing so quickly because we are actually moving away. From who we were as a younger south and moving into a new chapter in our lives, and that can bring changes as well as we get older. So we can start to view events in a different way I am. It's been suggested that when we do start to reach the later years of life, that older adults start to look back over their memories and recasting them in a more positive light and even negative events that had happened can tend to be cast within a more positive appraisal. So trying to drive meaning out of possibly negative experiences and looking in a more generous of way across the lifespan. So time passing can actually. I mean, he'll some wounds that have happened and make for a more concerted effort to consolidate everything that's happened across your life into that shaped you as a person today. I think you've suggested that because I'll time position is so variable and so individual, we can actually be architects of our own sense of time. Just explain a little bit more about what you mean by that. Yet. This is really interesting idea that perhaps we could by virtue of some of these periods and become masters of the way in which we experienced time. And so we know that the busier we are and maybe the more positive the events are the time seems to pass much more quickly. So the time flies when you're having fun sort of idea. But also there's been research to suggest in that memory is so important for perception of time and that the more events that you cram in, for example, into your weekend while the time at that point of experience may seem to pass relatively quickly while you're having fun. Actually, when you look back on the time at a later point, it will feel that it was actually much more of an extended period because you had more memories in there which are punctuating that time period. So it's almost a paradoxical relationship between having a lot of events and not having the attentional resources to perceive them all at the time of experience. So the time passes quickly, but then in high. Hindsight, the memories will play at much more slowly Moorish time perception is being discussed with great interest, not only in the fields of psychology and neuro science, but it's also a hot topic in the world of philosophy as well. It's really interesting that we've seen this movement actually within the cognitive neuroscience literature to know view memory as it's the wash wear and win. And today's we've been focusing on the wash happened and where it happens. We always look at the, you know, event details and the spatial location, but the really has been a shift towards looking at the time. So the temporal aspect and we're seeing this in the field is actually evolving and unfolding into looking at past and future and hide. They're inextricably linked. So our memories from the past serve this adaptive function to enable us to look forward to shape who we are and who we might be in the future. And it's interesting from very sort of anatomical perspective that the key. Structure that regulates memory and actually enables us to look ahead and envisage the future. This is the hippocampus. It used to be traditionally just associated with space and the representation of space and high that might help us to consolidate events. But now actually people are talking about the presence of time cells in the hippocampus and that the hippocampus might actually code for space and time bringing all our events together. So it's it's interesting that in the philosophical world, we're starting to see parallels filtering into the neuroscience literature to try and give us a better compass view of what time means in relation to memory, associate professor Marin Irish from the brain and mind center at the university of Sydney. Thanks today to sound engineer, Andre Shabonov online Malcolm. It's been great to have your company catch next time in what will seem like the blink of an eye.

insular cortex Mark Whitman Alzheimer's disease impulsivity Lynn Malcolm Marin Irish university of Sydney associate professor ABC Tom Freiburg Germany Alzheimer Matt Wittman Marin Ari Marin Arush GM UIL
#365: Darren Schreiber

Dr. Drew Podcast

00:00 sec | 2 years ago

#365: Darren Schreiber

"Thanks for listening to the Dr drew podcast on podcast one space. Some regions are vast and empty other areas. We call closets. Fortunately, Kevin from the container store has answers. Right. Kevin. What gives you the power over space? I'd say alpha, customizable, closets with free design Elvis adjustable shelving and drawers, I can create space in any size closet. Kevin master of space and closets or just Kevin. Plus right now, save thirty percent on elfin installation and earn up to five hundred dollars credit through February tenth at the container store where space comes from. Where's that? That coming from. In the podcast has always appreciate y'all supporting the podcast, and those that support us here, very privileged to welcome, Darin. Shriver the program today, you can check out the website politics, emerging dot com or follow him at Paul neuro peel L neuro senior lecturer university of Exeter in the United Kingdom. Darren welcome. Thank you very much. Great to get to talk to you after growing up here you on the radio and LA and here you are in what part of England now the sort of outskirts of York now, this is Exeter UK. So it's basically if you if you think of the UK's like your right hand, I'm living at the crease at your thumb God it, and you've been there long time or curious is my sixth year here. So really like, you're a Bruin by training. Wearing my UCLA sweatshirt just happened to be wearing that tonight through crazy. And then you taught it versus Andy egos. Well as right. Yeah. I taught there for seven years and just let's get some of the promotional stuff out front. Any books website. You want to promote? Yeah. The like you mentioned my very out of date politics, emerging dot com. And like I said on Twitter. Those the main promo things so you caught my attention on somebody else's podcast. I don't know what I can't remember what it was listening to immediately said I would love talked to our love to talk to him. Because I think, you know, I'm I'm a neurobiologist by sort of training. How do we understand people the current political scene through the prism of neuroscience? Yeah. It's a broad question. The bigger project. I'm working on is a book called your brain is built for politics than it's argument that the reason that we have the brain that we do as humans is the result of a three million year cognitive arms race to develop this most complex thing. We know about in the universe the human brain. And I understand the current political situation through that lens that the brain that we have was built not for national or international politics politics. We often talk about them, but the kind of politics of our family life in our community center cities in small-scale, tribal, politics, and we're using the same neural apparatus that evolved in his served us incredibly well for, you know, hundreds of thousands of years, and they were trying to adapt it for a very very different living condition in the twenty first century of six billion people trying to figure out how to share a planet. And yet in a weird way. We've done a pretty good job. Right. I think the real story here. The core is. Yeah. It's amazing. How good we've done. I just was reading than twenty eighteen half the world's population has made it into the into the middle class, that's mind blowing. I remember taking economics classes number years ago twenty something thirty years ago and hearing about the incredible percentage of people who were under a dollar a day, poverty, and they're still an issue, but nNcholas Kristof likes to point out that every the best day in history because hundreds of thousands of people are getting out of that extreme poverty in here. We are with half the world's population in the middle class. That's not what I was imagining when I was reading the grim dire on amaafuza stories as a kid, right? So what you say about Fuzhen? That's the stuff I was sort of reared on in college. Which was there's going to be a major famine it's going to be huge, and it must happen. And then we came up with GMO's. And all of a sudden literally hundreds of millions of lives were saved the demos were, you know, shit on. But. But I mean that was a portion of it. But is also we started if you're there's a great measure of economic wellbeing called the human development index developed by marches, San and others, and it measures among other things, you know, how many kids under five die will if your kids aren't gonna die before their fifth birthday. You don't need to have as many of them. People were part of the reason we have any population explosions was driven by these cultural needs to expectations. All your kids are gonna die. So if you wanna have a family and have kids to support you've gotta have a lot of kids. So that the odds of in a one or two making it to adulthood to support you in your old age you're going to play out. But. And that of course, had other effects, which is now women are freed up from being encumbered by this other human body that they're attached to right. There's a lot as much as it's easy to kind of freak out about the state of the world today. I'm a radical optimist. I really think there's a lot of reasons to be very positive about the incredible developments we've seen in in the course of human wellbeing in the last one hundreds of years, but certainly in the last thirty or forty years is it the singer the better angels of our nature. Steven pinker. Yeah. Yeah. And he's he's sort of in the same camp as you. Yep. Very much. So I was a big fan when I read that book. So let's talk a bit about the brain. I sort of I think I heard you talking about tribalism if I remember correctly in sort of where it will be any went so far to describe sort of why that happens, but I'm a little less more concerned about what to do or where it goes or how it involves from here. So go ahead. Yeah. So I mean, the background. There's there's some really fascinating work in the in psychology in the sixties. Fifties fort forties. Fifties sixties, especially after the Waco of World War Two in genocide and people doing terrible things to each other in the whole cost that led people to kind of wonder, why do we do these terrible things and a famous early example was this robber's, cave experiment. You Ramle signed kids different summer camps. And it turned out that they in put in a bunch of competitions. They do some nasty things. It's a little bit of Lord of the flies is the way that that's cast a whole series of other experiments of that era that that shed a pretty dim view of human nature. We're getting a different picture now as some of that data is being revisited in some of the narratives are being re understood in in when we have access to all the notes all the details about robber's cave furnace in a minute because I know robber's cave is under attack right now. And my concern is it fits intuitively for every male that has been a young adult preadolescent male. It intuitively fits our experience. We've all been in those experiences growing up. That a cultural phenomenon of the fifties. I think there's a degree of which that's true. But it's just it's not the whole story. Right. And I think that so a number of years ago, I stopped watching. The Walking Dead because I realized it was completely Hobbs in worldview that ultimately, I don't agree with it doesn't fit the data that I have in my personal life. It doesn't fit the data that I read in the academic literature. And yeah, I mean sure junior high right there some definite Hobbs in kind of you know, life is mean nasty brutish short Thomas Hollowell solitary mean, it's always be more solitary poor nasty brutish and short which are those which of those five is it not. I think it's it's none of those. I think that I think that that Hobson idea that it's that it's all just the suffering that life is a veil of tears from kind of the bidders. I think that that is a little oversold. It's not to say that there's not suffering. It's not to say that there's not an epidemic of loneliness. There's some really great work by John Cassiopeia on that. I mean, these are serious issues. I wanna kinda sweet these under the rug, but having said that I think there's also a lot of love and cooperation, and we can talk to each other thousands and thousands of miles away because we've got this internet that's created with technologies that people have been working on for decades. Co-operatively? That's incredible. Maybe maybe you think about Hobbes's sort of version of re of man in nature as he called it. But but I think he means man without other men and women become solitaire poor. A nasty brutish ensure that he's sort of making the case that we are political animals, very very much your case that their brains evolved for that. And we are very spirituality is built into that. I think that there's there's there's a part of that. That is true. But I think there's an over emphasis on the the kind of the nastiness, and I so an example of this is the literature on gain theory. So a lot of the literature and political science that is focused on kind of rational, the model of individuals rational actors the problem with that is that people we experienced it. When we run these experiments, we've gotten it this era of behavioral economics neuro economics, people don't screech other over as much as we were expecting certainly not in the when I was taking classes in the eight late eighties early nineties. I was kinda given an idea of this kind of wretchedness of human beings in kind of a nastiness of human beings and a selfishness of human beings. And it turns out that that doesn't actually fit the data. So well that people are much nicer than we would expect. There's not again not to say. There's not a lot of suffering a lot of people doing mean things, but we cooperate far more than I think we give ourselves credit for Adam Smith said man desires, not only to love, but to be lovely in other words to be seen by others. And he also said impera phrasing. The man is a peculiar preoccupation with the wellbeing of other people. It's all true. Right. That's what we we're sort of both right? We're sort of a great. And but sometimes great exactly, and I think that attaches great case. So his wealth of nations is kind of hyped up in when I give lectures on this on a regular basis all real raise out Smith. And just you know, what what do, you know about Adam Smith and the few students who will kind of chime in on that they'll be like. Oh, yeah. Wealth of nations, but they don't remember they don't they've never heard of his theory of moral sentiments, which is as you're saying, this kind of this view of us having this affect of life that is intertwined with others. And it is and that's the book that Adam Smith was working on to his deathbed. He started it in his twenties and was wrapping that up at, you know, we're still working on it as at the end of his life because he thought that was his more important work. This idea that we have this what he called fellow feeling and the some of the brain imaging experiments that I've done show evidence of that kind of fellow feeling motivating our decisions. Rather than just this kind of this this kind of brain is computer metaphor that is I think very dated and miss and inaccurate way of understanding human nature. We're not just calculators. Right. And so whenever people talk about a I I always made the case that you never have human intelligence because you have to have a body. I who because our nervous system is feeding untold information. And then the fact that our we'll talk about the scans. And what part of the brain. We're talking about here. So for the last that I was mentioning on fellow feeling we did a a colleague of mine developed what we call the the Robin Hood game. So you're given an opportunity you're interacting with three other people and you're seeing different distributions of income. You know, some in some cases, everybody's got the same resources in some cases. Some people are really wealthy and some are poor. And you're then given the chance to spend your say you have twenty monetary units. You can spend a pound in or. Order to make the other person three pounds richer or three rounds poorer. You lose that pound. So you don't get that money from them. Or you know, it's not a lost. You just the mechanisms of the game. And it turns out that quite a number of people pay to create a more equal society. They're willing to pay out of their own pockets when they see somebody who's really not very many. Much money or they've seen somebody's gotten a ton of money. They're way willing to pay out of their pocket to take the rich down of the take from the rich and give to the poor. And that's really surprising, given typical rational choice models, and these are all anonymous games, and they're all you don't know who you're playing with. You'd never have no interaction other than there's a person a person beepers and see and we're scanning your brain. While you're doing these experiments, and we find activity in the inner cortex, and this is part of the brain. That is not the outer edge of the brain. It's kind of more towards the interior a little bit. And it's involved in a series of phenomena that are known as intereceptions. So when your stomach's grumbling a little bit or you can feel your heart racing. That's you feeling your internal feelings. And it turns out that the that some of the same regions in the. The brain that are active when you're feeling your stomach a little turned off are also active. If you see somebody else who's feeling ill. And I it will Astrit this when I give public lectures by pretending vomit, and I've gotten really good at it to the point that I freaked the audiences out by making disgusting noises and a number of people like you can see the utter disgust on their face as their stomachs are turning in a kind of empathy sympathy with me doing that. And it turns out that part of the brain that's activated. As I'm looking like, I'm gonna vomit and somebody else is than feeling that fellow-feeling Adam Smith describes it that same part of the brain is activated for some people not for everybody during these situations as they encounter, the choices about inequality. And so that's not just envy. So we can't rule out everything, but we can rule out. We can rule out altruism. And we envy doesn't really fit the data in the sense that they're they're also. Giving to the poor. So that would be this relief from their guilt at acting out there envy. Maybe it either. You know, this is the challenge with brain imaging data right is what we call the reverse inference problem. We know this part of the brain is activated under these circumstances. What that exactly means is much more challenging we've ruled out a bit. I don't know this data, but I'm going to bet it's activated during the. The trolley stuff. Right. So the the challenge with the insular cortex in particular for a reverse inferences? It's activated in like thirty percent of all brain imaging sunrise. So it's activated a lot right rom a whole bunch of different conditions. What is interesting is that we could also look at the pattern of activation, and then see how much what degree does that correlate with other things were interested in? So we're interested in out of scanner behavior in it turns out that the level of activity in that area corresponds to level two when they play that game when they're not being brain scanned. It also matches that behavior. So it's not just kind of we've selected the Vauxhall's the parts of the brain. Dan, lies in mind, the dated get this result. It also turns out to predict self reported levels of gala -tarian ISM quite well. We'll I was going to say the terms of terrorism, I always sort of associate more of those kinds of human motions with the anterior cingulate is that is that uprating. Well. This study, it's not showing up the interior. It's it's really the anterior insular cortex was along with eventual medial prefrontal cortex area sorta I mean, it's a distinct. So the media prefrontal cortex is again part of that prefrontal lobe area. This is more inside the brain prefrontal lobe got so deeper deeper deeper stuff yet deeper physiologically deeper more closer to limbic enough. And in like, I said that Interros -ception usually that feeling your own feelings stuff feel like the influence really going to be. We may have the decade of the inflow coming up one of these days 'cause I feel like that's where all the bodily based information sort of. Noted the middle on the insulin sort of seal that go now to do with this, exactly. And we deal with all the time in chronic pain and trauma. That's all not working right for some reason. We don't really know what that means. We'll variously, but I I wanna get back to the sort of the robber's cave and the tribal stuff and talk more about that. And I just. I'm just concerned about that. That's the thing that sort of I spent a lot of time thinking about and it we just keep going down further down that rabbit hole. It seems. So I think that the most modern kind of data that we're hundred percent sure this works because it's been replicated lots and lots of times in a whole bunch of different ways. The is so robber's cave started off in it is kind of principle. It was saying you don't need centuries of conflict in order to lead to people doing, you know, group type, you know, group in in group out group dynamics, you don't need for there to be a five hundred year history or a wars or the civil war, whatever it led to what's known is the minimal group paradigm. And is that got more and more extreme explain their that got Korea that data. Yeah. So that's it's really fastening. So one example was it's one of the buildings at UCLA were the psych building was they would have you know, somebody's walking towards the. The the the personally undergrads been recruited participate experiment. They're gonna go to the eighth floor of the building. And there's they're walking towards it. The somebody else's already in the elevator. They join them. And then there's a third person that's farther away. And there's kind of a a manipulation of how far they are in all sorts of other variables to see. Okay. Do you? And I now that we're in the elevator together. I've never met you before. Do we hit the close button or do? We just kind of wait for them to keep in hit keep hitting the open button for this person who's coming away. And there was evidence of kind of this cooperation of OSs in the elevator against them out of the elevator. And then it got later versions were as simple as I give to people read sticker, the third person agreed sticker, and we see acts of discrimination against the the green sticker person. And there's just example after example, after example of that type of remember there was one where a revaluing art or something and there's random dots. And here the group of the not dot group. Yep. And we conform. We want to. To be we wanna be an off. And we we alter the way that we perceive the world we alter we will even say things that just like that line is definitely short of that that other line even though they're obviously not in shorter equal length. So there's all sorts of effects of this. What is interesting to me about? And so part of that is just emphasizing this look at how silly we are in the ways that we can discriminate, etc. Etc. With amazing all of those minimal group heard. I'm experiments though is so we've just got into the elevator. And you know were of. We're maybe different genders or different races or different ages or different in all sorts of things that are very different about us. And yet for those few moments were cooperating, that's really weird. I mean from a kind of comparative, I mean, comparative comparing humans to a lot of other critters, you couldn't put too strange her animals together and just have them start cooperating that doesn't happen very much in the in the natural world and may just social cooperation in general even with with chimpanzees. You get two young chimpanzees. You give them a task where they've got a cooperate in order to make something happened. The chimpanzees are better at the technical problem solving than comparatively aged human children in terms like solving technical puzzles, etc. But the two chimpanzees just cannot cooperate. Whereas the two. No human kids, just they do so much even pre-verbal at a very young age. Cam are capable not always. But they're capable of cooperation. So I think that the minimal group paradigm the way that's been interpreted to some degree his emphasized, the the foibles of humanity without seeing in what I think is really the humanity humanity, the beauty of our -bility to cooperate. Even though we've been strangers now are putting together were integral. Okay. Let's let's get this thing done. Again. There's downsides in its there's an us them dynamic. That's created in their want to underplay that. But it's fascinating that we can also cooperate. Yeah. We have I I was just thinking about where where people get weird in terms of their. It's really a disgust emotion as pertains to otherness, and if you've heard the uncanny valley robotics. Yeah. That to me there's something in that that that speaks volumes about the human psyche is what this is is that as you make robotics, more and more and more humid, we like them like we like him better better until they get really almost really humanoid. And then we're just recoil disgusted. So that slight unlike nece, that's light almost me. But not me is something we there's gotta be some weird evolutionary adaptation associated just that. If Freud talks about this concept called the narcissism of small differences. So my brother, and I many people when they meet us just, you know, they do double take. 'cause they think we're really really similar, of course. I don't think that were similar at all very different very different. Yeah. Right there. We've got emphasize distinctiveness, and I think Freud's idea of the narcissism of small differences is all over the place. There's a great book one of the. Really interesting books of American politics in the last year. So is called uncivil agreement and part of the bizarreness he kind of, you know, maybe the uncanny valley or nurses, small differences is pointing out that, you know, the left in the right in the US right now on many many policy dimensioned don't actually disagree that much. If you look at you know, so living in the UK. If you go back to various periods in the U K history, you had a real left-wing a real right wing that were was wanting to nationalize everything and one was wanting to privatize everything, and you have this kind of swing in the government where kind of the role of the government was seen in very different ways. There are differences between the parties were at a moment of polarization. But if you look at. Voters. And and the the average citizens on give them whole list of questions about political issues. We're not nearly as divided on policy perspectives as you would think based on the very heated rhetoric. What we're already what we are really divided on is how much we hate each other the left and the right in the US the remainders in the Brexit tears in the UK. There's this tremendous amount of antipathy in that has really led to kind of incivility that unfortunately is really damaging to democracy and really surprising, given this maybe narcissism small differences. I mean, this is not the the left is not, you know, mostly a Maoist sin communists in hardcore socials there are there are socialists in the UK when I lived in the UK in nineteen ninety I met people who are real deal, marxists. And they were chain smoking in apparent you have to wear black combat boots. This whole cultural did about it that had to be a real Marxist. You had to do these things, and I've not met those in the Democratic Party. I mean, maybe maybe maybe some brand university professors in the sixties. But certainly that was not my experiment experience and similarly on the right wing while again, there's there are. There are some people that are allowed the equivalent of what I saw in Hungary ultra right-wing Neo Nazis. Those people are present the United States not say, they're not. But that's not the typical position of the Republican party. But the difference. Maybe there's categorical condemnation and can in containment of that far. Right. The far left is still glorified and amplified in allowed to, you know, run run run free with Thika over they want and to it's not clear what the left is doing with its far left. That's I think we're things get a little weird. But that's not even part of the public discourse. Really? If you are knows dealing with the diction, you know that finding a treatment option that works for you can be extremely difficult. Frustrating truth is every patient's needs are different and constantly evolving. 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So when you're ready to buy new or used visit truecar and enjoy more confident car buy experience. Time features unavailable all states, if you like Marcia, you're gonna love momma said, but Jamie, siegler Jenna Paris on the new lady gang network on podcast one. Join actress, Jamie Lynn Sigler musician Jenna parents as they used their experience in motherhood to help you confess your mommy sins. And of course, realize you're not alone and feel like you're killing the mommy game. Download mama said everyone's Dan podcast one or wherever you get favorite podcasts. The other thing back to back to the the uncanny valley. Do you think one of the theories there three or four good theories out there, but where it came from? But one of them was that it's a something about infectious disease and contamination that that that's a very primitive sort of a reaction sense of potential for contact contamination. I think that instinctively seems kinda right to me. Yeah. And my understanding of some of the brain activity in in terms of brain activation patterns, the paper a number of years ago. It's more than ten years ago. So it's it's a little foggy my brain. But if something like infestation incested inequity, and it was basically saying all of these kinds of disgust that we have about seeing worms in your foods, seeing the violations of the incest, taboo, or. Kind of disgusting high level social behavior. All of those have overlapping brain activation patterns, there's distinctiveness within them as well. But there's there's there's one of the things it's amazing that nature. Does is it reuses cognitive tool kits again, and again in physical toolkits, whether you know, my arm is a human is a is an arm. If your fish the same kind of limbs become offense, if your bird becomes a wing, and there's there's kind of reuse both on the physical walls in the mental structures, the neural tissue it's used in different ways. And so it seems like there's at least some evidence that these things are built on top of each other in kind of stages of evolution Conaway. I I wanna say that again because people you I know exactly John over that that statement can pass by without people really getting it is that that our brains are not when they adapt. It's not they reconfigure we have a new brains revolution. We pile mechanisms on top of older mechanisms, and we have this thing that's been calling the past Jackson. Tony and dissolution. Which is when more recently evolved mechanisms fail us. We dropped down to the lower mechanisms in extreme situations. Like life threatening situations. It. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and we see this. I mean again, like the example I used of of of encountering situations as social inequality being activating areas of the brain that are involved in me feeling my own feelings the same area of the brain allows me to feel my own feelings ends up being later on it looks like an evolutionary history allowing individuals to feel the feelings of others to have this kind of inter limbic synchronization is a phrase it's been used where my emotional states are connected to your emotional states, which in many ways, again makes really complicated that that old that other idea of economics of the kind of individual rational utility, maximizing if my utility function of my happiness is somehow connected. To your wellbeing. Whether it's I'm taking glee in your your successes or taking glee in your suffering. You can't do the math. So simply, right. And that's why connoisseur. Certain degree have kind of simplified in the beginning of a lot of economics textbooks. They just kind of like, okay, let's look at the individual. But the data in the modern or standing shows a lot more the brain imaging data, the experimental data a lot of different contexts that we do actually carry about each other. And we if we are in a world where others are suffering we suffer as a consequence of that. It literally makes the math more complicated, and almost well, not almost on doable. So there's some workout of one of the areas that I'm into quite a lot in my own research is complexity theory, and it turns out you can with very small numbers. If you've ever wondered, why are in all of these behavioral economic games, the prisoner's dilemma, why is it to prisoners wise in the whole the chicken game? There's all these game after game after game where it's two player games. Why aren't there three player four player? Well, it turns out that you can't do the math for many of these interactions. If you get beyond four five individuals interacting, the Matthys literally intractable in trying to solve Trojer quesion for more than two particles will or the three body problem in the classic in in physics like there's a reason you can't do. Predict where exactly the third body's going to be two bodies. No problem. You get lips. But you get into that third body, and boom, it's unpredictable and that's for fundamental. That's not. We don't have the math yet. The math says you can't do that. In addition to the the unusual preoccupation that humans have with other humans. There's a there's another layer of something that I just adds the complexity of all this that monkeys doing experiments that I think tells us something about our private human nature, which is I forget what the experiment was. But if if one monkey is rewarded an unduly for grapes. The other monkey will refuse to accept the grape for the for bras. Was the one who did some work with France to wall? And so, yeah, the experiment is basically you do a task, and you get a chip, and then you can trade that chip in for a food reward. And so one monkey is doing does the thing gets a cucumber slices perfectly happy cucumber slice on. And you know is just keeps doing it. We'll do it all day for the cucumber slice they likely cucumbers. That's fine. Then they see their neighbor does the same tasks when they trade in their token. They get a great end, the one you just got on the the video of this is absolutely awesome. And the you know, he starts throwing the chip around. And he won't like taps it on the age throws the cucumber backout them. I don't want to cucumber. I wanna grow. Exactly. And it's just like that sense of of of you know, this is on fair and unequipped treatment is a violation. So again rational choice theory predict you know, you get your your cucumber slice in. You are happy with your cucumber slice. It's not relative to what others have gotten. But we look back at our ancestors. And it turns out that are the the creatures that we have that we share in pollution repast with. They also have this sense of of inequality in what's also fasting after that worked on by Sarah, others went on did it with dogs and with chimpanzees. I don't remember the details on it. But the chimpanzees were much more similar in the ways that they dealt with that to humans under a variety of of circumstances. Even more similar than the the monkeys. But the dogs were basically like is long as they get a reward there. Okay. Think of your dogs. They're not so much looking at it. But they'll take it from the other guy, but they're not throwing it back at you. Give them a Scooby snack. It's fine to give them a filet Mignon. It's fine. You give Pat on the head. It's fine. If you don't give them anything they're going to be not so keen. But like they're not going to be jealous. Right. There's not that same kind of sensitivity. But it's more the Chelsea we will harm ourselves to express our outrage. And again, I think this is Saint telling us something about the roller entity because outrageous such a it's such a currency is just it's just what everyone's doing all the time. They to me they everyone's throwing their cucumbers back all the time. And it goes at the happiness research too. Which is that we can be very happy until we see somebody else with more and then magically were unhappy. Yeah. Same found, right? Yeah. And we see this again, this idea of the negative partisanship. And the what is no also affect if partisanship in a relatively recent phenomenon American politics, where we just, you know, people on the left and people in the right hate each other in seem to get more out of the hating of each other than they do out of anything else. It's much more driven by these extreme intense negative emotional phenomena that are that are pretty destructive to the democratic emperor enterprise. All right. So I I want to circle back a couple of things you you speak in very precise terms, and I want to shine a light on each time. You do it to people understand packed in. We talked about the chimpanzees and the monkeys. We are not involved from chimpanzees and monkeys share a common ancestor. So I if luminary wisher common genetic link, but back to the narcissism of small difference in the affect of partisanship, the affect partisanship is is an amplification of small difference. Yes. Yep. Okay. I've been wondering and it's fascinating. I didn't know about Freud's contract with narcissism of small differences. But it has felt like to me that there was a narcissistic basis to all of this because narcissist for very prone to envy, and they're very prone to aggression, and they're very prone to otherness and and believing there, right? Is is there literally narcissism is narcissistic disorder of small differences. He I'm not sure if I would maybe take the analogy quite to the level of clinical precision. I do think that there is this in group out group dynamic, and I think I have this thing black wide. Yes. No all this wheel that way. That's they're prone to that. I think that there is maybe some of that. But again like to save all partisans are narcissist. Certainly is not the data that I have put it this way. You're right. That would be a gross overstatement. But I believe there's been a narcissistic turn if you certainly look at the data than look at the access to diagnoses and psychiatric hospitals. It's all cluster be all of a sudden. So at least on the path under the pathological banner. We've suddenly become more of the narcissistic zone. Now, you there could be many explanations for. That. But it makes me wonder have we all had a kind of a turn that way. Yeah. I mean, certainly I would say there's tremendous evidence that we have become disconnected. Okay. And so this great work by the the the lake research, scientists John Casio Baen his book on loneliness, and I got to meet him a number of years ago. And just he was like one of I've met a lot of amazing minds in. I was blown away by by him. Because he looked at this issue of loneliness from the molecular level all the way to the social network data to to like epidemiology. He's one of his famous kind of claims was that loneliness was as toxic for us is smoking in German, all it's it's a really important claim. And basically he's showing that were at this. His his work is showing worth is. Crisis of loneliness. There's a nother brain imaging study that just came out. There was reported in the guardian. I haven't gotten to the chance to read the data myself yet. But the reporting was they were using this game called cyber ball cyber ball you, and I are passing the ball back and forth to each other. And you pass it to your producer Gary passes to me, we keep passing it back. And all of a sudden I start passing the ball to Gary and he passes back to me and task back to him. And he pass it back to me, and I passed back to him and you've been left out. So if I'm brain imaging you while we've you know left you out Newman Eisenberg's work has shown that there's activation in your interior cingulate cortex part of the brain. That is then shown to be involved in inexperience of pain physical paints by sticky with a needle you're gonna have activity in that area. It turns out the when you say, oh, you guys hurt my feelings by not including that game. There's. Activity in the brain that suggests that's not just metaphorical. And she got a lot of pushback on that. And one of the great tests of it was okay. Well, if it's really pain, and I was sticking with the needle I wanted to treat that pain might give you like some Tylenol or a pain reliever. We'll turns out if you give the people who've experienced that social isolation Tylenol versus a sugar pill. They're going to respond and say, oh, yeah. No. It was. Okay. It wasn't that big a deal you give them a pain reliever. So that's the background that work is some of that work was back like ten years. It's been it's an early result in the social neuroscience stuff. So just this last week they were replicating that with some people who were indicating that they they did a large survey tried to identify sub population of people who might be susceptible to terrorist propaganda and be willing to act on that. And it turned out that when they brain image, these individuals there was much more reactivity to that cyber ball. Game. And I think that that that that that sense of social isolation that we get feeling like were being ushered leads then to this sense of anger and frustration hostility, and you know, we're not tied and we're healthy when we're tied were not healthy when we're not connected to each other. So I moved up his books loneliness human nature in the need for social contact or essays in social neuro science or both as you get the I think more public was the loneliness, but by Casio. Yeah, the good I don't think I've read them says is good social scientists generally is is the real deal yet. He out he passed away last year, but he was a super high band with some extra hard copy up at I'll take. Yeah. Well, interesting. So I'm still I'm drilling though. I'm pushing you back onto this tribal stuff again, and and the effective maybe a more accurate way to say, it'd be effective partisanship. What do we do with this? What do we do is it is there a solution? Here. I think you're our solutions. And so the the tribalism Nate literature and all of their literature showing how nasty we can be to each other was one great accomplishment of twentieth century social science, another really great one though was the contact type assists in the contact type pop. Asus of go. Now port lays out Kennedy's four conditions under which people who had hated each other can end up getting along with each other. And I can't remember all of the criteria, but is basically working towards a common goal with mutual respect with any set of four parameters, and I'll put this out back maybe fifties or sixties said, you know, if you can get people together to meet on the same of on this on a kind of an equal paying field in these interactions with some ground rules, you can get people working together. Pretty well. And there have been just a lot. What's in lots and lots of replication? So this is one of these findings. We don't have to worry about, you know, does it replicate it's been replicated tons of times that ninety five percent of the experiments that were done looking at this found confirmation of all ports theory, and they were involving hundreds of thousands of people multiple countries, in some cases, really extreme situations of groups that had literally been killing each other. You bring them in. That's fine. Heineken dinner great riff on this. They had an ad that I was showing the courses I teach on race or they brought people in who were from diametrically opposed identities and whatever they had him sit down have a structured conversation. That was basically the outpouring conditions and turns out there there ended up having a beer together. At the end of the advertisement. It's like the sweetest beer attic ever seen in it. So that shows that we are capable of getting together another great piece of more recent political science on this by some colleagues, Michael Nebo and a few. Other folks, they had an online forum, you know, we've heard all this about town halls, right? We're politicians were not even wanting to have a meetings with their constituencies because they just got out of hand negative and nasty. So think about that. And then think about like the comments section on, you know, any news article that you might Macron wide like I never read them. They're horrible right now. So given that in imagine you then have a online townhall like, okay, obviously that's going to be a train wreck. Like what cesspit that will be? Well, it turns out that it's not they set some ground rules out. They said like look we're going to have a moderator button will hit the moderate button. If we need to if it gets out of hand, here's the ground rules. We'd like people to talk to their congressperson on and on this online chat forum, and we're going to random recruit a random sample of constituents within that district. Turns out like people are nice. Each other. And they're they're they're not always agreeing. But they're they're having civil discourse. So and so if I if I extrapolate from the data or from the storytelling the narrative, you would you might argue that social media and media generally is the problem. I think it's a tool. Right. So they're doing they also are doing these online interactions, and they're also doing these kind of things that that are, but it's leading because they're setting up norms around it. It's leading to experiences where the politicians said, oh, I'd love to do more of these in the future and the constituents said, wow, I really respect the people who I live in the community with and we can get along. So my first career was is a lawyer and one of the, you know, the narratives that we have about juries. Oh, juries idiots, whatever it turns out when people serve on jury duty they come out of it with much more respect in a positive impression of the jury system because those twelve random strangers that come from very different backgrounds when they're working together to decide guilt or innocence. They I saw it as lawyer even in a case that I lost. I I ended up having tremendous respect for the jury because I heard how much thought an empathy and attention they had put into that decision. We're capable of a lot and whether it's face to face or online, the this recent work on the online stuff suggests were capable of at even online. So that again lifts my my hopes of humanity. I was expecting it to be a train wreck in it. It it wasn't what kinds of things keep you overnight. Now. By up that you find disturbing. They're maybe just trying to understand yourself. Yeah. So I mean, the disturbing there are there are some really disturbing trends. I before I lived in the UK, I lived in Hungary. And I went I moved there in two thousand twelve I went there, and I in nineteen ninety right after the fall of the Soviet Union and the other still Russians tanks hanging around. So that was a little bit of sketchy place. I went there in two thousand eight and my host took me to a cafe sitting in the back of the cafe we're watching a bunch of Neo Nazis goose stepping in black combat boots. You know, hands up in the air seek Heil things. I'm like, oh crap. I didn't know why we were in that cough. Cafe he was there to show me this this parade by the yoga party? And I was like, why am I? And then I heard is I heard, you know, lots of antisemitic stuff I heard racist, casual racism, like all over the place political. Scientists social scientists we use the scale called the old old fashioned racism scaled back in the day. How much do you hate black people in lots of people say, oh, I hate them a lot. Well, we don't use that scale in the United States anymore because people don't feel comfortable they, you know, have racist attitudes. They won't tell you that on a survey. Or is it just so rare that we don't we're not I that scale, and it was not. Both of those things have changed right to both of those things. There's there is one of my mentors that UCLA David Sears is developed this symbolic racism measure that much more subtle measure N, what it's the premise of it is that most people actually agree that that that people of different races. Are are equal mows down fifty percent or ninety one percent. Like, I think like closer to ninety one percent. I think there's a lot more consensus about that, you know, up in the nineties, and why do we treat ourselves as though it's twelve percent. I think it's because we still recognize that race has extraordinarily heavy costs on in society. And I think that that that those costs are something whatever progress were making there's still lots of room to get better on that. And so we've made this progress in it's it's fascinating to see that we have. But when I was in, Hungary, I saw lots of people saying these old fashioned racism things, and I started wondering was I in the equivalent of Berlin nineteen thirty seven was this. What was going on there? What I have seen in the period of time since then his mostly made me quite terrified. Here is a leader. Who has undermined the, you know, democracy. His Emmys touting this idea of illiberal democracy. He's put he has put a border wall south of his country to keep out immigrants. That's led to a whole series of economic problems. They don't have enough labor within the country and they just implemented. This new what's called? A slave law. They're basically there we employers can force you to work another four hundred hours, and they don't have to pay you for three years. So there's been a whole bunch of missteps what's fascinating one of the good. So of end a lot of erosion of the press central European university where I was working his than now kicked out of the country. There's been a whole series of steps of things that are that have been quite a destructive democratic Zoll hungry all within within the last five sixty or so one of shocking things was in the last election to two thousand eighteen election that right wing yoga party. That was I saw meal with Neo Nazis marching down the streets has moved to become a centrist party. They they saw the government in Hungary has gone so far to the right that they basically needed to go somewhere else. And so they've they've moved the middle. That is extremely that gives me hope, but I. I worry about these populist ultra right-wing movements and an undermining democratic values when I got in full panic mode about that a a while ago. One of the things that boy stirred my bolstered. My confidence was the students. I've worked with I've worked with amazing students that are in all parts of government that are in the left, and right, and this cheesy Xijue cleaver the children are future in the. I've seen amazing students that I've worked with in a number of universities that are taking the problems the future seriously, and I think are gonna protect democracy. But I think that we shouldn't be sanguine about our democratic institutions are democratic norms. Is this all European through our American students as well in American students as well. I mean, these are mostly I've taught in the US so most of my career until twenty to twelve is in the US, but certainly among the Europeans scene. The same characteristics in the same qualities. And I think that there are a lot of people that I do think again that narrative, I do think the world's getting to be a better place. I think that in the long run I'm much more optimistic about the future of Hungary than my Hungarian friends who I think are rightly pretty. Blown away by what they've seen happen in last number of years by being steady. Good trend. I'm with you. I think both of our students of humans in that. For whatever reason you come out of that study radically optimistic, and if you're a student of history you remain up domestic right? I mean, it it the sweep is in a positive direction for the most part. And I'm like you. I feel like you though, I still get the sterban by how much acrimony is going around and have been, you know, there've been times in history whether been some major kerfuffle 's that have not been good, cool, even though they may have unjustified. They're not cool and the worry we're heading to something like that. And would like to see us to do it hungry did and just kind of move back into direction of more unit. Three hasn't yet. Moved back the Neo Nazi? But I mean, I understand that moved back moving different direction of of unity and discourse. And you know, freedom of speech and things that we. I've always valued and sort of get a common Lisa commented values going again. I think that there's a there's a space for that. Again. I think that the literature that I've encountered shows lots and lots of opportunity for us to work together. When a when I was in college, a friend of mine was this woman. Gabriel Gifford, and she was a friend of somebody that I was dating and I lost touch with her years later. She was in the news because there was an assassination shot naturally, and I was blown away by that. And I was part of it was just like, wow. A friend of mine has been elected to congress in. It's the first time I hear about it like she's been attempted assassination. I was mortified, but then I also shocked because like we don't have congresspeople shot that much like, and I started looking up like a win was the last time somebody in congress was shot. And if you go back in the I I looked in the like the night the eighteen hundreds there were lots of of murders of congressman by other congressman with with canes and axes and things. It's sergeant at arms like they had a job to break up the brawl became lethal and certain context, and like so as much as we've got some incivility right now, we gotta keep it in mind. You know, our congresspeople are not killing each other. And we wanna make sure that we maintain that the norms of healthy discourse in particular because one of the side effects of that negativity is it drives people out of politics. There's great research shows physiologically people have this kind of train wreck reaction, they see the conflict there tracked into it. But then they wanna get away from politics, and the largest group of voters right now are people who are claiming to be non-partisans who's say content houses that claim and. Yeah. And so the political scientists would respond to you. Oh, you're not really you're a covert partisan. That's my donor migraine image was my daughter ADA, my brain imaging data would suggest that actually there are an study study having published yet, but I'm working right now. Now that there are actual differences in patterns of brain activity between people who identifies non-partisans than partisans, and they're in areas of the brain that are that are involved in social cognition primer on that knowledge ago. Yes. So it's it's some activity in a medial steer courtesies. So these are part of the brain dead on it. It's just been connected to basically in Antonio Damasio talks about it as the the hub of all hubs in the brain. Where all the parts come together on Zog's in in Alzheimer's. He observed inches if that's a good with that conclusion felt that the self dissolve because that region was deteriorating so severely. So yeah, I mean, the fact that that those differences between partisans non-partisans found there think is really intriguing as to what's going on in modern politics. So nothing else we can say about somebody's on the right for on the left in terms of their demeanor attitudes can brain image you and tell with eighty three percent accuracy. Whether you're liberal or conservative while you're gambling, which is pretty shocking, and what's really surprised about. That is your behaviors aren't any different the way you gamble isn't any different. It's the pattern of brain activity, and it's not just genetics data that we have is so strong. It shows that it could not match the haired ability that we have from twin studies that the the red brain blue brain is we call it in the paper are distinguished not because of genetics. I can only tell with the seventy percent accuracy for I know, your mom and dad, what political identity you're gonna have. And if I know your mom and dad, I know you're the environment. I know race I know in. I know hold onto things about you. And I also know all your genetics and yet brain activity is even more diagnostic in new studies of improved on mine on and can get you know to ninety five percent accuracy by showing a single disgusting. Picture how you brain reacts to that bag speaker discussing back to the gambling judging by how I feel when I'm gambling. My middle is on full fire. That would camper another one can just that you're more likely to be conserved on that is I hate gambling. I feel comfortable I feel like I'm just I'm I'm like, and I'm loath to give up to the next sort of bet. But I do and my middle if I could tell it's firing our just tell all, right? Go ahead one kinda thought it's just so there was a new study where they put people in a scanner. Instead, we're gonna shock you. We're gonna give you a severe electric shock in the next few minutes again amid black Titi differentiating conservatives and liberals on that. Which is really fascinating, very interesting. Well, they're really appreciate you spending time with such fascinating work. And is there a particular the electro for people to of politics, which was old? It's out of date. And I keep needs a higher a somebody to help me update it, but yeah, that's that's kind of my where or you know, certainly people can write me on Twitter handle at Paul Nero. Well in you. I'm gonna go get at PO L any you are. Oh, and I'm gonna go read the John Cossio books. If my great stuff and test up, thank you so much. Thank you Bye-bye. We'll see next time. For Colin times topics the show on Twitter at Dr drew podcast. That's DR DR w podcast music. Today's episode can be found on the swing and sounds of the document podcast now available on I tunes. And while you're there don't forget to rate the show, the Dr drew podcast Corolla digital production. Hen is produced by Chris locks on and Gary Smith for more information, go to Dr drew dot com. Conversation information exchange during the participation in the doctor of your podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes, only do not confuse this with treatment or medical advice or direction nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede, the relationship interruption of your medical hair, tapers other. Dr drew is a license position with specialty board certification by the American board of internal medicine. And the American mortar diction medicine is not functioning as a physician in this environment. The same applies to any professionals who may appear on the podcast or Dr drew dot com. Space some regions are vast and empty other areas. We call closets. Fortunately, Kevin from the container store has answers. Right. Kevin. What gives you the power over space? 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Documents and communications on donations made by or on behalf of foreign nationals Virginia governor Ralph north met and with his cabinet. Today's he tries to stay in office amid a furor over a racist photo from his nineteen Eighty-four medical school yearbook was made public in state in the state capital. Protesters were anything, but quiet. House speaker. Kirk Cox says Republican says the governor has to step down rightful hesitation by removal from office. I'm Tim Maguire.

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Scott Carney

Dr. Drew Podcast

59:58 min | 6 months ago

Scott Carney

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Use a coupon code Dr Drew Ten and you can save up to forty percents off select packages to get the most full spectrum effective magnesium ever. Thank you all for supporting the folks that support us. We can keep this thing underway. Don't forget after dark. Dr Dot Com as well as adamant drew you guys. We appreciate toward of that as well and I'm doing a stream on a regular basis and the website where we try to make sense of the. Disaster Today welcoming Scott Carney investigative journalist author anthropologist, his new book is the Wedge Dilution Consciousness stress and the key to human human resilience and Scott to tell you just the title that book got me I said it must be spending. So. Here we are. Nice. Thank you so much for having me This is It's quite time we live in right now. Yes indeed I I'm not sure how to even frame that. More specifics of skied at Scott Cardi CER ANYWAY DOT COM AT S G Carney on twitter. You may know Scott from some of his work with women Hof. which is. What Adam has been speaking out with you about, but I think I'm going to geek out with you about something else. I WanNa talk about the book I'm going to. Tell me about it. So, yeah, the wedge. It started off with me. first meeting. Wim Hof back in two thousand and eleven where I was the first investigative journalist, or I real journalists to ever write about it, and and just really briefly about the Wim Hof method basically, this guy is known for climbing up Mount Everest in his skivvies. sitting in ice water for crazy amounts of time, and and he made these claims that he could control his immune system at will, and basically give people superpowers, so I had just been writing lots of articles and was working on a book about how. Sort of that search for superpowers through meditation can be dangerous and even kill you so. When I heard about whim I was like this guy's a charlatan and he's GonNa get. People. You know the people are going GonNa. Freeze to death, following his methods and I flew out to see him in two thousand and eleven but my whole plan sort of backfired, because instead of like debunking him as a charlatan. I hung out on the ice water within and I was warm, and then I was like sitting on the snow, and all the snow was melting around ended up, climbing up a mountain by skivvies, and that journey just totally like radically changed my opinion on things, and and really opened up this whole world of trying to. Work on the body by using environmental stimulus because Wim Hof is not God right. He's an angel. There's nothing supernatural about him, but what he found. Is that when we put ourselves into stressful situations? Our bodies respond our bodies, actually step up to the challenge and become stronger and so I followed women for about eight or nine years, doing his method every day, and ultimately climbed Mount, Kilimanjaro in a bathing suit with him, and it was negative thirty degrees out. And I survive I. Know it sort of insane and. And then I got the top of the mountain and I was like well have done this long. Enough I WANNA see. What else is out there? And that's really where the wedge comes in. Because the way I see that concept a when I was sitting in whims, ice water pond behind his house of there's this stimulus coming in from the outside world right? That's you to clench up and and fight your way through that stimulus, but when teaches is that instead? You're supposed to relax. You're supposed to do the opposite of what your body wants to do. You know sort of medical terminology. You're supposed to go from a sympathetic state, your fight or flight responses into the Para sympathetic state inside the ice water, and when I did that I found a new way to heat my body and. When he was I said to me I'm in the ice baths Scott Relax I literally had this image of a wedge come into my mind as as as the way of like really separating that stimulus of the ice water from the response that I. Give it to my mind, so what I'm doing in this book is finding all of the ways outside of ice water that we can do that. We'll keep going I mean. Described more what you mean by. So. So in any sort of stimulus anytime, you're in an environment that that makes you feel something. Those sensations have meaning, but we evolved as from from earlier for four of us to now. Sensing the environment and that information was important and the reason why we have consciousness is to make decisions about the environment. Well, it's not just decisions about what room to walk into what animal to go hunt or what you know. Internet fight to get into. It's also the actual sensations. We have an element of choice in how we feel, so, if you for instance where to jump into an ice, everyone can think about what that feels like like. It sucks right like ice bath sounds terrible sky. Why are we talking to you? you can go into that with that apprehension and say this is going to be the worst ice bath in the world. I'm GonNa die, or you can think I can do this I can rise challenge actually. This is a joyous moment, and that's which changes the way. That ice bath you experience the is, and weirdly it also changes the way that your body responds to the body chooses the heat itself in that environment. So. Let me just drill into the coal water stuff from. Because You. Know I. Know Adams Way into this and I've been doing the cold showers and stuff for as long as he's been talking about it. and. I've noticed there is a little bit of A. Thermostat or something in your head where your body goes by just goes Oh, this! This is not so hard! I've done this before or something. That's sort of the first part of the first phase of all this right. 'cause I feel like you know I I've read literature about like feral children and things like that for instance who don't feel cold so eventually sort of lose your capacity to feel these things if you're exposed to all the time. Take, my on anything, can you, can you? That's just my personal observation, so absolutely like one thing that I love talking about is when you know, the pilgrims I came to America right. You know this sixteen hundreds, winter and spring. This happens right and the first person they met. Was this guy named Sama set in in? CAPE COD and he walks, and the pilgrims are all huddled up in their coats and the things that they're they're you know US keeping them warm? And it's like a snowy blustery day on Windswept Cape Cod and the guy who walks into their camp is in a loincloth, right his literally just sort of hanging out and there's there's. A etchings of this first meeting and and and for weird reasons semi set knows English and there's a long story behind that that we're not. GonNa get into here. Sam Set. The pilgrim seem like Oh, my God and they like run out and give him a coat, and like cool. Thanks for the coat, and what? What is really interesting about the Quin at that time, is that they would put their children into snow for fifteen minutes a day during the winter and would give them amazing resilience. But, even you know if you want to drill down into the the the biology of this, it's super fascinating About the very first time. You feel anything like our brain, right? sits inside of our head, and it's basically you know you can think of it like an afloat tank writes in his spinal fluid and brain fluid, and the only way knows anything about the world is through your sensory pathways through your nervous system through your eyes, ears, your nose and whatnot and from birth I mean we have a few instincts. There's a few things that are sort of wall fired in their everything we learn about the environment is from experience. It's through those chemical and electrical signals that that that fly through our our body and one of the things that I I came to understand while writing, the wage was. That the actual process of formation is actually entirely subjective, a formation formation of impressions about what the environment formations of of impressions really about everything, but yet it sensation at first objective in the sense that it's a it's a one skull, experience, or or or subjective in the sense that it's choice 'cause. I think later I'm on with the choice assessment, but as a child. Well. It's interesting. Right because your brain is never not in your body, right? It's always getting that information. Your body's trying to figure out the world and I think the wedges sort of a fundamental power that we have sense birth, and it's something that we're trying to do to try to take control of her body where we were going for basically ought onomic right when you're born you're you look down and you can't control your arms like what the Hell is that? How do I figure that out and you'll only learn to use it by sort of. It's essentially stress it's. To sort of work against that physical structure, and somehow you form the neural connections to move that under conscious control, and as we get older, you know. Where to use the we use this sort of encounter against stress over and over to extend expand our abilities until we don't feel like we need to anymore what I'm finding is that we can actually keep on expanding them by keep on pushing ourselves against difficult things like the shower like the like the ten or fifteen different things. I'm talking bout in this book. But I think this concept of neuro symbols actually really useful to get neural neural neural symbols symbols. And if I if let me just describe it for a second, it's a little bit in the weeds, but it's really really fascinating and I think it's going to be. There's a payoff here. which is the very first time you feel something? Let's just use the example of a cold shower, right or like an ice bath. Let's say you've never felt the cold before. For some reason right I don't know, but this person is, but they've never felt the cold and you're gonNA plunge them into the ice bath. They drop into that that environment that stressful environment, and this signal from their nerves fires into their brain. Right goes up. The peripheral nervous system goes up. The spine goes into the very lowest areas of the brain. This is the LIMBIC system and and it's coming in as basically just data like it doesn't make any sense. All at the LIMBIC system knows is that it has a really high volume 'cause. It's a super loud stimulus. And so I like to use a metaphor here. The limbic system is something like a library and every library has a has a a librarian and says she gets the signal, and she looks in her library of books, and she tries to see if that signal matches anything her because she's ever felt the signal before, but she hasn't 'cause. She's never been in ice water. So what she does is she kicks this signal over to the Paralympic system, which is just another conglomeration of brain structures like a centimeter away from the limbic area and the limp, and this guy will come a bookbinder. Takes that signal, and he bonds it with your current emotional state right, and this is what gives them meaning to that, so this is the the loud signal of ice water in your current emotional state, which is probably abject terror and horror, and that probably actually comes from some instinctual stuff. It's there from before, but it comes back down abject terror and hard. That's what ice bath means she takes. That book files it away. Then you have your your ice bath experience now here's the really interesting thing about symbols. Is that the next time you have that same sensation? You jump into the ice? Ice Bath. The signal comes up. Librarian gets it. She looks over her books. She sees that it's already there. The ice bath is unmitigated terror and horror, and she pulls that signal off, and you do not experience in the present moment, which means that every time you experienced anything you're living in your emotional passed, and that's like an and this like neural symbols they have your forming billions of and I'm taking sort of an extreme example of them of course, but if you think about it, these are the bits and bites of the human software that makes it the hardware of our bodies. I completely agree with the assessment that the the metaphors interesting you're you're talking about. A region called the insular CORTEX. Yes. And I, there's a great book I'm trying to find it Gary maybe you can help me. Inger inroads interest conscious always reference it. Somebody else reference to I was interviewing. Is it how we feel or how? Let's see how. How do you feel looking up on Amazon? It's literally. How do we get into receptive experience from our body? Yet injure right. It's deeply embedded in the on onomic nervous system and and what? I think most people here. How do you feel it's going is by a guy named How do you feel an interest? After moment with your neurobiological self by guy named the Bud Craig. And he he goes through in great detail, elucidating this mechanism and I think a lot of people are aware that we have hunky lists on on our private courtesans, since rear for motorists information well, we have a monkey lists a whole series of layers of a monkey ally in our insular CORTEX, and it goes from anterior to post earier, and it gets more and more clearer in refined as you move forward. Here it is thank you. It's it's. It is not for the faint of heart reading. It's for really neurobiologist, but it's it changed my love it. That's great and he is really give. Trying to break down exactly what you're talking about the very very specific neurobiological mechanisms. so you are onto your onto it. Oh? Yeah, even as I hear you talking about it. You know our our pain patients. Their big problem is this region of the brain. Yes, the emotive or misery component of pain is what's going crazy. And they can't control it. They can't regulate it and You know you're this kind of stuff you're talking about. Behold the clue to one day. Developing therapies for people like that right out. One thing that I really have found in this and. I am so glad that you're of your medical background. Because this is going to make it, so we can freely geek out so that no. It's going to get out of that. but the the. Interest. Shit I totally forgot what I was GonNa talk about intense perception, the paint pain into cortex and emotive emotive experiences of sensory experiences. What your time and your librarian is essentially the Almaz, which is which is sending information to the Migdal going this is important. Fire off. It also sends it up to the insulin, which says Oh. My God this is awful. The remember the awful and respond to the awful. Yeah, let the other parts of your brain that know about awful. Come on in with this when his awful, but but that's all stuff you're right can be. Can kinda conditioned away more than show if to choose to work on it, I don't know his when you say choice, people think about consciousness and conscious choice in this. It's a little off that right. It's not like I'm not gonNA feel cold. It's like it's a little different. It's a different part of the brain right well, it, yeah, so the choice to to to resist that is really where the wedge happens and happens at a conscious level, but it also that conscious decision in flex things that are lower down android, and this is why I'm so interested in sensation right now, we. We find it very easy to geek out on the mechanisms, the hormones, the the pathway that work in the brain, but really what our tools are that we are born with our sensations, and if you have the sensation coming in from the outside, which is that ice bath for instance or you know could be a twenty other things. You have some choice in in what that is like. If you think that sensation is horror, it's going to feel much worse if you that sensation is rebuilding resilience building something better, your body will actually respond the your biological mechanisms will change to some degree and I'm not I know you can take what I'm saying and pushed us into absurdity. I'm not talking about getting superpowers. I'm not talking about. Becoming something crazy right, but will you do? Is You get? Resilience is that you don't necessarily fire? You're sympathetic pathways I'm you actually can? Can remain in this rest and Digest, state, even in the presence of stress, and by doing that you start to be able to toggle on Inbet- in and out of of a fighter, flight or rest digest between sympathetic comparison pathetic so yet I want to get a little deeper into the concept of the wedge. If you don't mind, but yes, they have the before we do what does that. You're saying you sort. Sort of develop inability to regulate your comic system without be another way to say that for sure, and what advantages I can think of advantage, but you tell me what advantages does that provide for so lots of them one of them the most obvious it would be anxiety depression. You know when we we live in a world where we don't have real threats, right? You go back to our our prehistoric ancestors right there on the plains of Africa, and there's a lion running out of at them. They have to go dump adrenaline for energy and Cortisol. To fight this guy right because they're gonNA fight or run from that line in and most of our our ancient challenges have physical responses to them right we have. We have adrenaline cortisol to get us out of all sorts of problems are prehistoric era, but in the present day were using those same systems to fight trolls on the Internet that you would know anything about that. True. But but we would have like. Your 401k goes down your healthcare. Your cove it in a way that you can't affect anything right, because honestly, I. Don't you and I don't have much effect on what happens with Covid, but we are still firing. Those stress hormones. Then we don't have a physical. Output, to it, right, there's no fit you know. The the the lion comes, and you stab the lions. You're using that energy, but when you you're firing drown, you're firing cortisol and you don't have an output by either physical or emotional. What happens that turns inside and really messes you up. And this is. This can be depression in some ways and what I found and this is nuts dr drew. This is not what I'm GONNA. Tell you hear that when I started doing the Wim Hof method. So this is in two thousand and eleven, and I was just going there to debunk him, but I learned at work. I was like cool. My life has changed what I was not thinking about really at all was the fact that I had canker sores since I was a kid like and for me, they were particularly. These dime sized canker sores. And I will get them probably once a month, and they would last about a week and these are essentially autoimmune illnesses right like really. It's like the weakest auto least interesting autumn. They were a big deal, I started doing the whim. Hof Method! And they never came back like it was just sort of a side thing, and and there was really interesting study and I think you're GonNa like about the Wim Hof method and immune suppression where he went to Rad bound university in the Netherlands and he claimed that he could turn off his. Immune response and they said that's probably not true and. And so they they injected him with endotoxin. Right so this is a heat killed coli bacteria, and usually what happens when you get injected with endotoxin is your immune system, says hey, this is an invader and I'm going to have a primary immune response. So this is going to be your fever your joints. All the stuff you might get with a flu and so the people who designed this test. We're actually designed like a a immune suppressant drugs like. If you got a kidney, right, you're you're you? Don't want your by to reject the kidney, so they designed the test of those drugs, so the people they who took those drugs who then got jet injected with endotoxin? If the drug worked, they wouldn't have a reaction that means the drug was good. What Wim Hof was saying that he was the drug, or he would just do the drug himself, so they injected him with endotoxin. And, nothing really happened. He complained of a minor headaches that was all which initially people said this was really. This is really cool, but obviously one person is just one person, so you know. What can we drive that so then a year later and this is. This is the the week after I met whim in Poland, so he they did this. They brought twelve college students from Reading University and they did the same training that I did which was a breathing protocol sitting in ice and relaxing in the ice. Then they brought all these people back to the lab. And they injected all of them with endotoxin, and they all had the same results as Wim Hof was. A seat lies bath. A No it was a week of ice bats. A week of is fast, and then they came back, and then they did. They injected them, so it's probably dance. Today's of how long are they or what's the? So the ice bath when I'm doing doing stuff. You sort of build up to like a ten minute. plunged into his leg and then you'd climb up a mountain in your bathing suit, and you're controlling your body temperature in this hostile environment It's really quite quick to learn and the other part of his has protocol. Is the breathing method where you essentially you super ventilate. Dizzy and kingery, and then you exhale. And you hold for as long as you can, and you do that three or four times until you're holding your breath for three minutes, and the way and this. Basically you're blowing off all your co two by blowing off your co two. Your gas reflects is delayed, and you're able to hold your breath ridiculous amounts of time, but these are the two basic components of the Wim Hof method, the people who did that for a week and it was a little bit more intense than just the fifteen minute thing. They all had no response to endotoxin, which showed that at least it was possible that he was basically turning off his immune. On over a reaction to this well. You know the immune system evolves with the neurological system and It's pretty clearly as there's lot of evidence that it's tied in with the on the nervous system as we don't understand. So right out as though this is. Completely unfounded science. Right no absolutely and. For me, it's been it's been you know. This is the problem with being investigative journalists and you'll. You'll recognize you. Get Lots of anecdotes from people right I need tons of people who've had these really remarkable experiences, but don't have yet is a data set of thousands of people who've had like. canker sores like mind that way right or part you know, but I've met people who had symptoms of Parkinson's come under control. I've met people who've had diabetes reverse. CROHN's disease reverse by doing this stuff the thing that worries me is is we could get too excited about this, and and maybe stop medical treatments, and that would be a really bad bad outcome but on the other side. What I'm never what I don't think is ever going to happen. Is You know we're never going to get one of these gold standard studies from a pharmaceutical company where you spend one hundred million dollars to get a perfectly randomized control group? And settings where we like. Oh Yeah, that definitely works right I. Just don't see that that funding paradigm coming in. So let's let's keep going down the rabbit hole because. One of the. Interests me your anthropologist by training. Yes, and. He's I found Jordan Peterson years ago because he in my estimation, he was trying to combine psychology and Anthropology and myth. Religious experiences and try to understand why humans do that. Why why humans have those things? And what does it tell us about humans? So so, I'm always interested in somebody with anthropological training you WANNA. Do you WANNA. Talk about that I because we're GONNA. Get into consciousness because that's where. My anthropology training so I went through graduate school got to. Dissertation for the anthropology and then I dropped out to become an investigative journalist so The The thing that links all of my books and my first book on organ trafficking around the world on one of the few experts on organ trafficking spent six years sort of looking at how people buy and sell kidneys and hearts and skeletons and hair, surrogate pregnancies and stuff like that, and it was mostly looking at the commercial aspects of this and it's a horror show. And that book is called the Red Market. I wrote a book on. called the enlightenment trap. Essentially how meditation can can really mess you up if you're doing it wrong like if you're going the wrong answer of teachers if you have these expectations of superpowers. You can get into a lot of trouble and I actually knew. Several, people who've died or ended up in insane asylums by Tantric teachings and like really sort of like indepth knowledge, so it's really odd that I've ended up in the place where I am now or I'm saying look, here's something. That sorta looks like a superpower right? Here's something that sorta of sort of crazy so I don't even know where my life is going to go next. Because you know I just sort of put myself I try to immerse myself into these situations, then try to understand what it means to be human. In all of this. Right, which is what fascinates me and so the back to the wedge before your consciousness. The Wedge! So it is a way to folk to separate stimulus from response. or in some cases, away to increase to decrease the space between stimulus and response. It's a way to have some control over how we react to the environment. Especially ones. They're stressful. Especially ones that have those really loud signals that come in through your nerves and you're you. Are we saying that if we can tolerate things like cold that it it. By itself translates into the ability to. Regulate other emotional experiences, or is there some procedure we have to go through? So it's not just cold and you know there's several types of cold. There's fast cold slow cold for instance slow colds, keeping your house at fifty degrees where you just sort of like feel cold fast cold as you jump into ice water, right for there's this really quick switch. The slow cold is. Is actually a lot harder to control. That creeps up on you, but that fast switch is something where you can see that change happen rapidly, and then you can exercise control because your body wants to do something right your body has this desire to make an immediate reaction, which is the clenching up rates, federal fighter flight, and when that it toggles in that direction, you have the ability to say no. Let's not toggle to resist in the same thing like right now. If you tickle, you drew. Did you have an assistant there because? Let's say someone would tickle you. You can say I don't want to be ticklish. Right you can. Will yourself not an ticklish or when a sneeze is coming on? You can think what what do you do? Think nonce newsworthy thoughts down. No, you focus on this and sessions, but you can at least delay sneeze. And that's really the wedges well. It's just not super applicable for sneezes. But when you learn to do these things in multiple environments right, not just ice water, but also things I deal with fear I deal with. Sleep with sound all of these. Different ways you can experience something if you can. Your sensory changes when you can also do is my your emotional changes, because remember what I said. It was sensation and emotion bonded together, Yeah. So, let me go back to my experience of it. I will first of all I this interesting experience where? For a few seconds. I can't tell if it's hot or cold, which is kind of a fascinating experience? All I could feel is that it's. It's. Burning is like it's burning so-called burning. In then. I take a few breaths and and I. Would I try to tell myself as positive thoughts like Not I think Wim. Hof US got this from him or somebody's not just to do. Endure it, but to love it. Feel like like I with it I'm in it or something. And that that turns the corner on that clenching up response. Yes, in once you're in. You can tolerate a lot more though though I do hit kind of a threshold I'm like okay, that's enough. and. So what do you do when you get to that point? Well I. Mean You can stop a? There's no reason why you why you need to do. A thirty minute is. Sort of crazy and I do know people who do that, but I don't know why they do that. Because what you're trying to do is is is flip that talk all right between flight and rest and digest and do that. You know obviously the hunger you stay in the ice bath the more, but your body wants to flip that switch over to the other side right, and and what you're what you're explaining is like your I get out of the flight bath. Well, that was the flight response, right? It was a art were got out. Yeah and I. It's not but in in a we getting a we discussing here for Missus, does he? Yes, yes, so why? Of consciousness to go, but tell me about MRS so Hermes. This is the idea that if you put yourself under stressful conditions that stress makes you stronger until it doesn't right, you know so so the classic example is birds right with and bird eggs right? Where if you put just a little bit of arsenic on a bird egg? They produce more viable offspring crazy, but if you put too much, they all die. So so the idea is that just a little bit of poison will make you much stronger, and and the trick by using any sort of hormetic exercise is not to get too much, so you have to practice with them bound to be very careful with doing it, but it is the fact that you have stress than a than a response where your body's steps up and actually improves against that challenge, and that's people are toying with the idea that that could be helpful in reducing the risk for drama virus Riding that. Don't don't confuse it with things driving. IDEA. Then right. Right and you know honestly with You know we can't say what's going to help. Run Advice. Follow the public health. Risk of course percent, but. There's nothing to be. SA- certainly make your body more resilient right now right like generalize resilience. You know things like this ice water. Practice this breathing practice. And other things like heat practice going into sawn. These things stress your system and force you to get stronger now. Will it cure anything I? Don't know but I. Sit, my guess is. It's going to give you a better shot. Is there a reason you call it the wedge? Yeah? It's because of this idea of separating stimulus and response that ideas that my mind. My intention was sort of like forcing that stood between the ice water and my bodily reactions. Like something you felt like. This feels like a wedge between you know like you experienced. Did you sit and think about it and said what's the word that describes come on? It was instantaneous when I was in the water like was like looking at women I was like this is the wedge and A. Grad there's another time, so this is the. Separating stimulus response is what we're talking about with ice water, but I want to give you an example of the removing of it, which is which is also really cool. So one of the things I WANNA do in. This book was put myself in multiple situations that. I could control myself in a strong stimulus, I went to Stanford and hung out with Andrew Hoberman of the WHO live. He's a neuroscientist and he was trying to teach me about fear. And this is where I got the idea of neural symbols from and he was putting you into a VR simulator with virtual sharks with people who are trying sensitive, so people who are prone for anxiety, and the sharks would produce reliable stimulus, producing it sort of equating anxiety attack, but to make them anxious then he would measure their automatic arousal in that situation, so he uses to describe your, and so I was super excited to go swimming with his virtual sharks and learn about my fear sensations. But it turns out, I'm not scared of virtual sharks like like sort of. Like! These are sort of land so I when I left his lab. I was pretty sort of like a bummed out I was like I didn't find my wedge in this environment. Thanks for the description, but then I got this message on my phone from a guy named Tony who I know who who said. Scott. You got to go meet my friend Michael Castrogiovanni. He will throw kettlebells at you and put you into an instantaneous flow state, which believe is the gets the award for the. Dushi EST message ever sent via taxed. and. I was like all right well. What is this about for me? kettlebells sort of and throwing kettlebells. You know what comes in your mind wants Mrs. Throw a kettlebells. You're gonNA break my foot. Yeah, that's in your soul apart. So go meet him, and we hang out in San Francisco and he Michael Like just to paint the picture for you. Michael is basically a gorilla in human form. He has his his arms or like my legs. He's sort of hunched over, but sow his his his knuckles I mean for all intents and purposes they drag on the ground I. Mean He is dangerous looking dude when to people facing off against each other right and one of them holding essentially a cannonball, because kettlebells like it's a weapon. This is an aggressive, potentially dangerous scary situation. And, and so Michael, what he does is he says Scott GonNa throw this at you. And there's there's three I'm gonNA. Do Three things before I throw it the first time he swings it. It comes up between us, and we are looking in each other's eyes and I'm like this is great. On scared. The next time he he brings it up. You go from looking each other's is to the kettle bell. So now we're focused on the thing that's about to smash my foot, and on the third time he throws it and I'm still looking right at the kettle bell. Let's go. It flips through the air my, but puckers strong after like former diamond of coal. But I grab that that Kettle Bell. And all the sudden it goes between my legs I. Let it go, and it flies back to him, and we go from essentially what could be an aggressive dangerous place into essentially dancing community air? Because it's dangerous. Because all of a sudden, we were in the presence of danger, and our movements start coordinating automatically. It's like it's like we're not even thinking anymore. We're just moving because we're in the presence of that threat and this all of a sudden, this exercise goes from being like the dubious thing you've ever heard of just look on instagram to something about trust. Trust something about empathy something about connection and the practice is actually I think really really beautiful and really wonderful, because it's a way to communicate without words, and this is an example of how we've removed the wedge. Right where you're not trying to fight stems actually trying to go automatically, so there's no thinking about the response. The threat is there and you just act. And and so that's that's the other way that the wedge works. And this is also what they call a flow state, but but it's not a single scull flow state. It's A to S-. Go which is probably why this all evolved right is so when we were hunting, mammoths be in a in a communion without even using language probably before language right. Totally it's an wolves, right. It's it's it's you know we're not the only people that we were going to go on a consciousness, right? We're goner. Consciousness is there so that so as as a way to make decisions about the environment? It's a it's a way to make decisions about the world, but we're also all connected right like I'm here and I'm talking to you and I'm influencing away at may possibly affect you in the future right now. All things going perfectly. You'RE GONNA be oh, there's a cool idea that somehow the influences your life. We're headed that work. Right I'm just. We're not even in the same room. We're not even the same state right now, but I'm moving ideas for me to you, and and so, what is the limits of the human body in the human mind? It's really sort of like a like a pool. Of ideas and one of the things I like to think about in the book is that we're not just? I'm not me and you're not. You were all sort of more part of something which is much bigger than us, consciousness is sort of like almost like a super organism in a way. Yeah, so so I don't disagree. and people listen to podcasts of heard meets speculate about these things. And I believe consciousness is a at least a two skull experience in other words, consciousness emerges from the back and forth exchange of exactly the kind of material. You're talking about here in that flow state with the bills. Starting with you and baby and mom. And you literally see yourself reflected back from mom, which pulls you out of your skull into a second State which I would call consciousness, your primer states, but understand them because they're reflected back from another human, so and there and so they're therefore for me. consciousness has said that each other's consciousness has to leave a residual on us right. So, your mom's got a residual on you and my mere dad, and says we leave pieces of ourselves behind on one another right, bash and sometimes I think that's what psychics are doing when they do their readings that they're just picking up on these parts of. Or something who knows but but there that there's ways to intuit these parts of us that are the for at least important relationships in our life that are left behind on us. Yeah. No it makes perfect sense I am I am right here with you. Dr Drew. The other way I like to think of it as like sort of like. Russian dolls right is that we have a certain view of consciousness where we are right now like I. Am here and I'm Scott Right on in a body right, but below me. At what's going on in my life I know if I change my gut bacteria for instance right my personality changes. So where was the consciousness in that moment right? Was it in my gut, or was it in my brain, or was it like you're saying? It's this communication between these two June the end. You know I have this. This guess about the immune system. Right where we we're how many people have had suggested? Immune system has some element of consciousness and I'm to run something by you since your doctor and I was taking an immunology class of at cu boulder recently. I was fortunate to be able. Take some courses there and. And one of the things the doctor said. Is, is is he? Put up a picture of a macrophage on the slide projector and the macrophages, essentially this Amorphous Cellular Blob that goes around and eats bacteria and other things that are in your body. Kind of cleanup system Kinda. So the macrophage. He said as and he says he has all these descriptions for how the macrophage works. There's chemical you know. locks and keys on on the outside of cell. Wall and goes around, and it's totally a mechanical, but when I look at this macrophage I'm like it looks like it's hunting, 'cause it's touch. Red Blood cell touches something else, and it's like Oh this thing I'm gonna go eat at end, and it looks something like a choice to me, but then he said something that was really crazy. He says it's more logically identical to an AMOEBA. It is. And then. Well remember we. We are sort of layered. There's a lot of. Parasitic. You know we're looking forward. Symbiosis I act hundred Burbach area right? That's what we have. We got on them. Say animal cells what some bacteria found his way inside and create started paying off or giving his energy, yeah, and same thing with the gut bacteria synergistic, and it's there some kind of symbiotic relationship with us. And the immune system will. What's your theory? Well some AMOEBA found a way into our system and learned how to live with us, maybe I mean we can certainly produce the Amoeba thing DNA like that clear, but what? What was interesting to me? Is that so? At the end of my previous book, What doesn't kill us? I ended up climbing Mount Kilimanjaro Right and I was on the top of this mountain and I had this sort of spiritual insight. which was? Remember I'm basically naked, and it's negative. Thirty two outside so I've done something which is crazy, okay and then. On the top of mount and I'm thinking to myself. I. Didn't get here because I forced myself up. I came up here because I worked with the sense. My sensations in the environment and I was part of the environment, and then I had the cheesiest thought that I ever had in my life. which is I am not on them out. I. Am the mountain. So I had this insight, but at the same time that I'm on top of this mountain and UNOM releasing who knows how many hormones and what concoctions going in my body, those gut bacteria in those macrophages are also on the top of Mount, Kilimanjaro they? They can't think of it. They don't know what Kilimanjaro is. There's no macrophage idea, but they are experiencing it through the Lens of my body in that hormonal cocktail that they are swimming it. And and I think that a lot of what the wedges doing is this sort of telescoping communication like I'm giving myself certain sensations into my body, and those things in my body respond to those things, and so I'm I'm trying to sort of create internal and external environments, and the key is deciding what those sensations mean when they come in because you know when those sensations rocket up the peripheral nerves into my brain. If I think fighter flight I dropped fighter flight hormones, but if I think rest and digest, I drop rest and digest hormones, and that affects my internal biology. That's what was GonNa say is that there? We're use to responding to the body and the sensory system as opposed to sending information back to. Essentially regulate it or control it. Right and so you're saying you can be in control of it. it doesn't have to be strictly. Command Center can also be an interactive. It can be interactive. You the environment, and then the interest of world which. I think you know the the first step it seems to me is being aware of the intercept of world I mean most. Seems like most people aren't even aware that right Oh. Yeah, and yeah. There's a whole chapter on interception where I go to Tulsa Oklahoma to hang out with a guy named Justin Feinstein and he might actually be great on your show. You write down his name. He's he runs probably the. Best at least the world's most well renowned flow research center where you put people into flotation tanks. And study the responses and his idea. He had this really cool study of people who had a major anxiety disorders, oftentimes PTSD. Afghanistan, that sort of thing, and he would put them in float tanks. And float. Sorry afloat tank for the people who aren't aware of it is basically a ver is a very high density salt solution where you lie on it and a you can float, and they make it really dark, and it's about as close as you can get to having no sensation of the environment as we can create, but I'd like taking your brain out and. And putting into a jar so it's turning down all of the stimulation, and so when we put this when he put these veterans and people with major anxiety disorder inside of the float tanks. What happened is they started noticing their heartbeats for the first time they started noticing their breathing in the creaking of their joints and when they got out, he saw. Amazing improvements in their overall anxiety and these improvements persisted for. A month after, so he did three questionnaires. Maven for questionnaires on their state and just one at one hour afloat tanks for changed their life I. Think the reason for this actually comes back down to neural symbols, where if you think about the soldier, and there's the Apocryphal story of a soldier in Afghanistan, who's walking down the street and streets fine. There's a certain quality of light and there's the t sellers, children's voices and car traffic all the normal things you'd have and then boom right. The roadside Bangalore in his buddy gets killed. killed he's thrown to the ground. And all of a sudden his adrenaline spikes in his his heart, popping his ears, and all of those sensations he had were wired into into that moment of trauma and anxiety so that when he goes back home, he might see that certain quality of light, and it triggers. The panic brings him back to that moment, or you know his heart's always beating and the last time he sends his heart was in the in in that that traumatic firemen. And now it's it's always giving him that anxious stimulus. Who interesting so it's like parsing out all the different stimuli. Right, so we put him into the slow tank and he's like. Oh, I can sense my heart and actually the. The paper on it has like their own words, but what they thought about the flow tank, and there was a soldier in there, who was like I could sense my heart, and it was like the first time it was a positive experience. Somebody with panic and anxiety. I can tell you that. When when these things extinguish as when you experience a stimulus that normally evokes it. And you, you literally thought occurs to you, which is oh. I can have this experience and not panic. It's like it's possible. It and it goes away like that just goes away. It's interesting, so that's fascinates, do they? Are there other stimulant? If the parse out the same guys or usually, there's just one main one like breathing or heartbeat. That kind of thing. In the flow tank. It's anything in Tara. Sept so reception means the sense of the body. We've used this word quite a lot and yet any because you're because these neuro symbols I gave the example of the ice bath as just one, but really you're sensing thousand things right now. That are the sub perceptual. You know there's quality of air. There's a smell you're not even paying attention to most of it, but your brain is still processing, and they still plays on your emotions. But you know we did mention You mentioned the amid villa earlier, so I want to tell you the next thing that happened to me at Feinstein's lab, which is super cool, and so he said. Hey, you've been doing this breath work for a while in the Wim. Hof breathing method is. hyperventilate and you exhale hyperventilate you exhale an end. You hold your breath for a really long period of time. And that's the the method method there, and and one of the outcomes of this is you actually have a pretty high tolerance to carbon dioxide in your body? because you've had these really long breath holds. And you just get used to it exactly so what he did is he had been studying. People with damaged MiG della so they US fear center in the brain and he and there's. Probably can't get into too much of this in the book, but essentially a carbon dioxide can trigger panic attacks, and when you have a cognitive behavioral therapy session, somebody has repeated panicked. That's one of the things that they can do to. You is induced panic attack into a person in a safe setting so like the in the doctor's office by giving you a hit of thirty two percent Sio two and this will trigger panic attack. You'll your breath ago. crazier journal will spike, and then you'll realize in theory that the Pentax, not so bad like you can control the. Exposure Yeah so so. What Feinstein found out is that even people with damaged Migdal, which means the the fear centers people who are basically biologically immune to fear can be dosed with co two, and they will also have a panic attack and he has these really great. Studies about like all of these people who are like yeah, I almost putting a gun in my face, I just didn't even sweat, and then they just have this bag of air on them, and they freak out, so he says Scott I. WanNa. Test you. I was like Oh. Okay Weird. Weight because I jump into these things and so I sit down across from on thinking to myself I'm GonNa Freak out like I'm just GonNa go nuts here and the test is You take an inhale, and then you just rate your anxiety on like a one to ten scale, and you're supposed to free times. Press this button. You get the air. You supposed to that three times over thirty minutes, and that's what he he's just sitting across me, and we're just GONNA. See it how it works and he should be. Sort of a tape recording of a woman who took this had the damage to make lot, and like ran out of the room like full-on Mike. Really exaggerated response. So I take it. My I inhale. was like this transcendent experience that I have at the end of a long breath. Hold in the Wim Hof stuff where I'm feeling great like it's this joyous thing for me and I'm like Whoa. This is cool tastes like citrus. Disintegrate and so then I pressed the button eleven times in the course of fifteen minutes before he's like. Yeah, I think we got enough here. And it essentially if you're able one. He said he's never seen this before that. You can actually change the way your body responds innately to see how to train my chemo receptors on this, but the other thing he says now he's running an study on this. Very topic is that if we can train co two tolerance in person? Will that make them less? Less anxious general. Will you be able to change their anxiety profile because who cares about the dude, the bag right, but how can this change the way we're? We're we deal with any sort of stressful situation, so there's a lot of like breath work ideas that can come out of this in a lot of the critical medical research. It's out of this work. Will Scott. I'm running out of time. It's just a privilege to talk to you and obviously there's a lot to be learned. That's why everyone needs to go to the book. Everybody is by the the wedge. Come on if you WANNA WANNA go all the way with this. It's the wedge, evolution, consciousness, stress and the key to human resilience. We didn't Lucia really. We tell. which the social brain evolves and That flow you're with with the kettlebells, probably part of our evolutionary heritage. Any less the note on evolution before we wrap this up. Yes, so evolution the idea is this is that we evolved with stresses right? The reason we can sense the world is because those senses evolved, and we're evolutionary. Add adaptive. They let us survive and and and. By paying attention to our senses that we get information about the world that affects physiology and we were designed to do this. In fact, every creature in the world was designed to this, and we came from constantly varying constantly challenging environments, and the problem with the modern world is that we live in an unchallenging environment. Yes, yes, half things that scare US right codes out there. Twitter wars are out there. They're politicians. We like or don't like out there. There's all of that stuff in the world. World, but that is not actually a threat. The way we designed to deal with it what we need our physical outputs physical responses to that stress, and that's what the wedge is all about. It's trying to find ways that you will tell Adam that particular construct 'cause he's. He's servants. Saying things like that for awhile. Did you discuss that without I'm the reason why Adam takes ice bats. You'll I know that and I think you'd have the breathing thing with him to right. We have across. Down but he literally I think this He. has been saying gear. You know what I'm talking about. Where he says essentially that we create problems because we're. We really don't have any. I if it's okay, I would like to take credit for all of atoms most brilliant. I am your statements and anything dumb. He says that's all him. Enough the long. It's Okay I. don't care where he gets it from. It's good, you know he knows what's worth repeating. It takes them judgment to be able to see that. So Got Again the website is Scott Carney cra wine dot com, the Wedge Evolution Kostas Stress Key to human resilience and You've certainly give me to continue my clothes showers, which I had been off for a while the started up again about a month ago and and I think it's doing something I do. This we didn't even talk about the the idea of. Sort of wilfulness, a Willie yourself in comfortable situations part of that. Choosing to go towards the Wedge Right? Yeah, there's a lot packed into that. To the hardest thing. A human has ever done is sit in a warm shower and turn around and turn the KNOB. To Cole I am convinced that that is the hardest thing that we can. But. I've gotten to the point now. Where if I don't do it I start to feel. Guilty or weird or like missing something and it certainly is easier and easier. The more you do it that is for sure yeah, and I I'm convinced talking to you. I should do a little bit longer to maybe. We need to throw some kettlebells next time out in La. Absolutely it sounds. Shitty shoulders, but except for that get into the flow. As and no doubt we'll see you again soon. For, Colin Times topics follow the show on twitter at Dr Peru. PODCAST, that's Dr Dr W podcast music through today's episode can be found on the swing and sounds of the document podcast now available on Itunes, and while you're there. Don't forget to rate the show. The doctor through podcast is a Corolla digital production has produced by Chris Locks on and Gary Smith for more information. Go Dr, Drew Dot Com, all conversation and information exchange during the participation in the doctor drew. Drew, podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only do not confuse this with treatment or medical advice or direction, nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede the relationship interaction of your medical hair tastes other Dr drew is a licensed physician with specialty certifications by the American Board of Internal Medicine in the American. Board of Addiction. Medicine is not functioning as a physician in this environment. The same applies to any professionals who may appear on the podcast or Dr Drew Dot, com.

Wim Hof Scott Kilimanjaro US Amazon Wim lions Scott Carney cortisol Adam Dr Drew Pod insular CORTEX E. W. Drew Justin Feinstein Dr Dot Com Kettle Bell twitter
Phenomics: A Medical Revolution

The Naked Scientists

57:51 min | 1 year ago

Phenomics: A Medical Revolution

"At Toyota we believe that American veterans have the strongest credentials on earth. Especially when you consider that they spend years gaining valuable experience by putting their lives on the line to protect the country they love and the people that live here but that doesn't always mean. Finding a career path is easy. That's why Toyota has partnered with hiring our assurance to help over one hundred fifty thousand veterans and military spouses connect with employment opportunities. We are Toyota. USA Have you loud and clear that is to say Physics Medicine Nature High Brain the hello welcome to the. It's on says this is the show where we bring you. The latest breakthroughs in science and technology with Chris Smith and without a Murphy. This week we are looking at the future of medicine fee nomex including during the toilet that analyzes what you put down and in the news sending wine into space new insights into the origin of life. And why a lack of sleep might gives you the munchies the naked scientists podcast is powered by UK fastest coach UK. Now I do you have trouble understanding what others are saying in noisy places for instance does does this background din make speech much harder to follow. If so new research out. This week might explain why research is in the US. US have found that high frequency sounds play a key role in the intelligibility of speech. And if you can't hear them properly you struggle in noisy places but these critical frequencies are usually not routinely checked in hearing tests bizarrely. Perhaps they ought to be as Adam heard from Cincinnati Children's hospital. Ohio's Lena Motley Zeta Data and David more so in a normal audiology exam. They generally check out frequencies between about two hundred and fifty Hertz yes and either four thousand eight thousand Hertz where to fifty. It's low pitch sand and four eight thousand. A very high pitched but actually healthy young people can hear up to twenty thousand Hertz. Twenty Kilohertz audiologist have tended not to pay attention to dad extended high frequency between eight and twenty kilohertz partly because most of the energy of sound is lower frequencies and we know from everyday experience during severe telephones and so forth. We don't actually need to use extended high frequencies at least in normal listening conditions. And you know that we set the groundwork with David. Can you explain to me the experiment. You've run. The recruited a young adults more than sixty percent of them less thirty years old and we surprisingly found more than half of them have extended high frequency hearing loss which was related to Dave Self report that difficulty listening to speech in noisy environment. So I started with Routine ideology tests that he's like hearing tests. When you go to visit an audiologist you send some pure tones with different pitches? Intensities and you ask them to respond to the sound even if it's soft to obtain a minimum amount of things that they can hear and then after that we use the speech in noise list this and we wanted to see give access to high frequency hearings very high frequency hearings. How the speech understanding we'll be for the participants so praising Louis when we put the coffee filter giving access to frequently above eighty worse discord improved proved significant babe so it shows that listeners could use these frequencies laundry standard speech in noise. And why is it not having bring these high frequencies means you can't pick noise out of crowds so out. Understanding speech mainly depends on high frequencies because is high frequencies can provide intelligibility or clarity and we need to hear high-frequency parts of this speech to follow the conversation Russian in noisy environment when you have high frequency hearing loss as a result of age noise or auto toxic drugs that mainly affects tie frequency range of hearing you cannot easily follow speech like a person that have normal hearing in these frequencies. What do you want people to take away from this research? I think this gives us. It's an opportunity for some sort of personalized medicine because it's important to realize that some people have this problem others don't and we can and then tailor our intervention be it protection of hearing or even some new drugs which coming online to prevent hearing loss to the people who really need them. That is very good to hear David. Moore and Lena Motley Zeta there they work has just been published in the Journal S. That's the question that no one ever ties of asking. Where did we all come from? And how did life begin. One theory is the deep sea vents. Where mineral rich warm water issues from the planet's interior played a key row here? The conditions could have been just right to allow simpler molecules to link up unformed the crucial oil-based membranes that enclose flow cells. Now Nice. That theory was no one had yet managed to prove that it is indeed possible until now that is because by recreating conditions very similar to a subsequent in his lab. UCLA's Sean Jordan has made it work and he told Katie Halo how and why these vents are so critical to the process. So they're really unique in that they're formed with an alkaline fluid and four and a half billion years ago when we think I life would have emerged. You have an acidic ocean ocean and alkaline fluid inside event and it's almost like a battery so positive charge on one side negative on the other and this provides the energy that would allow you to create the first organic molecules cules and then you can go through stages of more complex chemistry we can concentrate molecules inside of events because of their internal structure. And you can form these non living cells that eventually become living cells we've thought about hydrothermal vents and origin of life. For a little while now. So what was specific problem. You're trying to solve. Would this study. There are many theories for the origin of life and alkaline hydrothermal vents. Have a lot going for them in previous research. No one has been able to form these cells Dell's under alkaline salty conditions. So that's a big hit for this theory because all life is cellular we were able to form them for the first time and we think it's a big boost boost this theory. How do you make what came? Before the sow. What is that? Modern cells are formed with phospholipids. So these are quite large molecules. They have tails that are hydrophobic. Which means they don't like water and heads that are hydro Phillix? They do like water when you put them in solution. The hydrophobic tails connect the High Philip head groups point outwards and then they form this fear. Looks like a soap bubble. We can see them on a microscope. Thirty sphere and and these just really really simple cells. How how would this compare to an animal planet? Sell that we might see today yes. They're super simple. So we've composed thieves using fourteen. Lipids fatty acids alcohols and is a pre. No it's a modern sale would be composed of many different types of fossil lipids so again larger molecules but you would also also have proteins in their sterile so these are all different molecules. That would make up a cell membrane and cell membranes in modern sows completely active in you know working metabolism allowing things in and out what these simple cells are like. They're actually quite leaky. So that's good because when you don't have an active way of passing things across awesome membrane if the salad self is leaky things can get across without needing to do any work essentially but if we can get simple enzyme like the protein like things into this membrane then it can start to play a role in metabolism okay and that might take a bit closer to the cells that we know enough today. Exactly how did you manage then to make these cellular precursors in the conditions that you have that people haven't been able to do before the reason we anything that people haven't been able to do it before is because the approach that's been taken as a kind of standard chemistry approach where everything is kept really clean. They were using one two and three molecules to make sales putting them under really harsh environmental conditions of high temperatures varying different salts and these simple cells. They don't don't like us but the good thing is that the of life you would have had close to a hundred of these types of molecules so we thought let's make things a bit more messy a bit more realistic so we just used fourteen different lipids and we mix them together and they were able to be stable under these conditions. Okay so you've got a big variety of a starting components as it were what about the actual conditions because these events are hot on their alkaline and they're salty right. The lot of people confuse them with these black smoker ochre vents with violent black smoke there around three hundred fifty degrees. It's much more difficult to try and form any sort of life in those. But what alkaline Benz have you're talking around fifty to one hundred degrees so we used seventy degrees seawater concentrations of salts because that's the best approximation we can have for what the the ocean would have been like back then them and then the alkalinity up around Ph eleven twelve. We've used that's representative again of the fluids and the inside now without getting a two philosophical these precursors on actually alive right absolutely not alive. What is being able to do this process zest tell us about how life may have started in the first place? All we can do is think about what life requires even that in itself is a controversial topics topics so lots of people don't agree on what's alive and what's not but we can take simple things like DNA cell membranes metabolism and we can try and replicate each of those by themselves in the lab and then we can start to think about putting these together if you can get all of those components to work under conditions that are representative of your theory very than that lends more weight to the idea that that could have been where life emerged. We'll never know for sure. But we try our best Sean Jordan. And Sean Sean speculates. That similar events probably exist on icy bodies like Saturn's moon enceladus so primitive sells might be able to form their to the work he was describing is published in nature ecology on evolution. Hello sorry to button. Ktar from the naked scientists. Did you know we make other naked shows to you. The fraction of all humanity. WHO's actually gotten a chance to see their own? Brain is very tiny and you welcomed to that club. So if you enjoy musing over the mind reflecting on thought or frankly feel bamboozled by the brain checkout naked neuroscience. My face hurts now so yeah let's go spicy. Don't go down into the creepy seller and turn the light on exactly access the full archive by a naked scientists dot com slash. Nearest science also subscribe I to naked neuroscience wherever you polka sounds guttered shirt shoot but an extra hour or two asleep in bed might help reduce the risk of becoming obese. Less sleep on the other hand seems to be a potent stimulus to the overeat and especially to binge on high-calorie Fatty and sugary treats. But why is this well a new study by Serb. Patani whose San Diego State University suggests the sleep deprivation produces a surge in the body's own cannabis light chemicals physical Endo cannabinoid and these. She's found cause a region of the brain known as the SOULA which controls food intake to slacken. Its inhibitory grip on the brains smellier is making. The Aroma of delicious. Treats just too tempting to resist. And there is a huge body of research that suggests that chronic lack of sleep is associated with overall poor health and there is a bunch of data showing that when you do not get enough sleep you increase your food and take and people become more reactive to unhealthy foods and foods in particular that are high in sugar her and fat that we call junk food. What we really wanted to understand was why people crave these high-fat foods after a sleepless night back in the past when people first began to flush out this association between not getting enough sleep and then rebound overeating one? One speculation was the the hunger Hormone Ghrelin which is produced by the stomach. Suppress by sleep. That goes up so there's just a rebound over eighteen to compensate so is it the simplest that it's more complicated than just like hunger hormones increasing because there are a lot of studies showing that that people may not really physically feel hungry but they still go for oldest foods. That are high in calories so there has to be a different mechanism. Where air basically it connects your sleep loss with consumption of very high calorie foods so your brain or your body saying that I really Lee want a donut or I really want potato chips? So you're saying there's a switch in terms of food choices but it's not necessarily just driven by overall increase in hunger succinctly and what do you think underpins that then. We definitely think that there are some brain signals that may be playing a role in overeating of not so healthy foods. It's and Pasta. Research primarily has shown that sleep deprivation increases certain night so these economic nights are basically these naturally produced neurotransmitters that bind to some of the receptors in the brain and affect feeding behavior. So they're very similar to cannabis like compounds. That can cause cannabis related munchies. On the other hand we also kind of know that sense of smell is also really tightly related to how we choose food diatoms and in particular animal studies have shown that these enter could enhance food intake by increasing the activity of brain areas that process odors. So what we thought was that maybe we can put all of this together and ask if what people choose to eat when they are sleep. Deprived is related to how the brain responds to food spouse. What we found in our study was when people words sleep-deprived so the only slept for four hours the following day when we scan their brains and make them smell these delicious food odors and and also some of the non-food odors the perform cortex the region of the brain where smells are processed in that particular region the patterns of food food versus non-food orders were significantly different? So what this means in simple terms is the smell process with region. The brain goes into this hyper drive. It sharpens food odors for the brain. So it can better differentiate between food and non-food odors. And how do you tie that to changes changes in the Endo cannabinoid system. These these natural brain chemicals that mimic cannabis the perform cortex also send signal or information out to other brain regions in particular insular Cortex so insolent receives signals. That are important for food intake and when a person is sleep deprived signaling between weaned perform cortex the smell processing region and insular. That connection was not as strong so the signaling actually refused and we also found that because of this reduction in communication people ended up eating more energy dense foods. Now how is it connected to the Endo Canabal nights in Europe transmitters when we do the blood analysis we saw that people had certain components of this and cabinet system very high in the blood and those people also consumed very high energy density food. So putting all this together our results suggest that the sleep deprivation really influences this economic it system which in turn alters the connection between perform cortex and insular CORTEX and ultimately leads to a shift to avert foods which are high in calories so that's food for thought Serbia. Patani there and that fascinating research about why you need to spend an extra hour. imbed to lose weight was that she published in the Journal. Aleph from dinner to drink snow on the announcement that wine buffs are sending a dozen bottles of wine into space. Now's not starred. In a or a re slingshot or Mierlo it's a dozen bottles of Bordeaux now regrettably for them decimals won't even be allowed to drink it to find wile north or perhaps more accurately not on earth you would want to do that joined by scientists and wine expert clear Bryant. WHO's doing this sale the space agency NASA actually sending the Warren in space in this a guy from the Bordeaux region who has a close association with them so they've decided to send a case of auto into space. Why that's a very good question and I'm not sure I have an answer to it the SPIEL giving us as an experiment. Whether retaining one case Gordo in Bordeaux and a perfectly temperature controlled cellar and they're sending the other case in space to be kept for a year on the space station. Soco's control started a case control study were restored eighteen degrees in space. Then they'll bring it back and presumably analyze it. What might this is all based around the ability you to aid your wine? So why eighteen is really interesting. Concept were a very good quality wine and it's only really good quality wines that will age well will change in texture Taste aromas and these factors happen over time so a long maturation of wine will eventually end up with a complex interesting product so taking taking into space because you're changing the environment potentially could I guess age in foster because every everybody would love to know way of speeding up the wine aging process. Because then you can sally Mitchell wine faster one of the things that costs money with the wind. The age is actually having to store. It intended ready to drink one aspect of this. Is that the widens up on the shelf. It's it's laid down on to bottle age could that be some impact therefore of not ending up with There must be a gradient in the wine where some of the heavier molecules will end up at the bottom some of the sediment will end up with some people. Say It's a mark of a good wine if you get that nice sediment fooling the bottom of the wind so sounds like he's just gratuitous marketing doesn't it but do you think they could be some sense. Bless back to this number might disease mentioning chemistry. Yeah I mean the sediment the guesses due to the Tannin so support. The prices Tannin's Eventually they go from being long chains to serve aggregate. It's a short change. And they then forms sediment in the sediment drops out in the wine but I think with with sending a case for a year in space the kind of other factors that alter the way why nature as as well as temperature is fiber ration- clearly going to be a vibrational process taking a case in space but also radiation. So it's one thing you do when you store wind you store in the dog because the UV venoy generates free radicals and that causes problems Sashimi. They're thinking about the effects potentially of gravity on Mike Gravity different space radiation and what that might actually due to the way in which the wine ages because the booze cruises into space before having this isn't this isn't a I in that respect. No it's not so that the Russians when they went up to the Mir space station. I believe at school used to smuggle Volker within that she'd lose weight and Talk Volker in their class suits and then take it with them. When they went into space the moon landings? They had so typical as well. Isn't that the main landings. Yeah they took the communion wine onto onto the moon with them and they pulled into Grozny Honda climbed its way out of the glass. So would you indulge worried the a toll by radiation or irradiated wines. Interestingly those those really interesting presentation Mboya somebody will such a chemistry and they actually talked about the effects of radiation and what it does is to wine aging and the problem is is actually instead of not actually improving the wine can actually make it worse because it can generate a bunch of Alta sofas and that gives a nasty smell so I'm not so sure that this is a good idea. We'll keep drinking down here on earth. Thanks very much this Claire and lots of people got engaged with this one on twitter as well. So Adam We can see or re slingshot. You'll Merlo in your starter. Nee and raise you one mercury sling ally. This one is all from that was from Darn Phillips. We've also got from JOVEM. At Joe Brody on twitter says Pino and WOMP it think she means no bit that one call lake beetle juice. I liked that one. I think. That's my favorite now. If you've ever left a box of cereal neglected in your cupboard for months you'll know that it takes a long time to go off but will it last. Three eight thousand years turns out. That the answer's yes or at least well enough to still read. It's jeans a scientists have just discovered using grain harvested more than three millennia. Ago Phil Sansom. This all started with an expedition to Egypt in the nineteen twenties. Their English archaeologist uncovered some tiny grains of Emmer marite exquisitely preserved. This was one of the first weeks that where the masticated in the Near East around ten thousand years ago grains then moved moved to London to the Petrie Museum of Egyptian archaeology. They sat there for one hundred years until a scientist from UCLA saw them featured on BBC documentary. He in his colleagues got permission from the museum to try something new carbon date the week and then analyze its DNA we sequenced its genome of this. Like three thousand year old sample from Egypt so it was very exciting to us a sample that had been in a museum and financial Results that is lower body. Gay a geneticist. Who was part of the team? Sequencing the wheat samples what we sequence where the husks which are some sort of leaves that usually close the seat so if you imagine a grain of wheat grain that has this slightly rounded shape with this beautiful golden color pairs of leaves each curled around the seed that had long since being eaten away by bugs. The first step is still remove all the protein eighteen to free the DNA. You are in the blind when you do that because you follow the protocol pretty much like a recipe but you do not know the result until just sequence it. It's a bit challenging. It works though. And they produce the full genome of the ancient we every single one of its jeans. They found that it it had many of the helpful traits that crops have today like exceeds that stayed on the plant when it's right but the scientists main goal was to investigate how domesticated emmer wheat spread around the world to do that. They matched modern types of what are called land races to the ancient genome to see which were most closely related. At least the mid was surprising that we found that the closest relatives where land racism or work alternated in the Arabian Peninsula and in India. Not The samples that used to be cultivated in the Mediterranean. Why is that surprising? Well it's all about. How early crop technology spread around the world? This was a major incision in human history. It triggered a lot of changes in how population sleeved and interactions between societies. This is sometimes called. The Neolithic Revolution and hunter gatherer populations were replaced placed by every cultural populations scientists previously thought that when plants I got domesticated in places like the Middle East. The technology spread outwards words in all directions at once to Europe Africa and Asia but this emmer wheat genome from Egypt was away close cousin to Asian races than European ones. Maybe that means the technology came earlier to some areas than to others. Probably there was a first wave of expansion towards the north and then Europe and there there was a second wave of expansion towards the south of the Mediterranean and Asia. The question Russian is then. Why would technology have moved like that? There might be European bias going on here but there might be something more. One of the common problems is that usually Europe is better studied than other places if you look at their sides. I think that this theory of the later later replacement matches the timing of the archaeological sites that you fine but because it's an understudied area Area Africa nations understudied compared to Europe. I would say that. At least it's intriguing to know why this happened at a later for stage and the other conclusion of the study is that lots of samples in museums might actually be treasure trove of DNA. Even if they're not exactly going to make a healthy and nutritious breakfast Phil Sansom reporting on that work by not gay from Barcelona Center for Research Agricultral Genomics and incidentally one of her colleagues actually made an emmer wheat loaf of bread for himself and he said it had pleasant nutty taste that research obviously the plant genome research not the making. The Loaf got published in the journal Nature Plants. And now it's time for the mailbox where we read out what you've been sending ending into us and Tony One of our listeners. Got In touch with a question was related to our recent. Qa One of the experts who cares Latham it was on the program was talking about. What a blind person actually sees Especially given that ninety five percent of people who are legally blind still have some degree of visual perception but Tony was asking specifically a bit more he wanted to know about people who were born. Blind had a working visual cortex in their brains so we went back to kiss and this is what she said. She said. The question question is right to suggest that processing vision the an-and the brain is not always exactly the same. One example of this is that it is relatively common for people with acquired site lost due to problems but with a working visual cortex to experience visual hallucinations in their non seeing areas of the brain is called Charles Bonnet Syndrome. It's I thought to be due to the visual CORTEX being bored by no longer receiving any input from the is nearly citation then creates images that the person can see these loose nations. It can be very upsetting for people and anyone who experiences visualizations related to sort of sight loss is encouraged to contact as maze umbrella. That's online at Charles Charles Bonnet Syndrome dot UK. That's the web address for advices port on the other hand cast says some people who are blind you to cortisol problems but have no problems with the eyes themselves yourselves appear to be able to respond to visual stimuli. That they do not consciously C.. Which is termed blind site? This occur after stroke which typically affects one side of the brain under one side of the Vision People blindside can respond to stimuli presented in their blind field with an accuracy greater than chance despite being unaware of seeing any visual all stimuli. This suggested some visual processing bypasses the usual visual pathway to the Occidental cortex however if someone is born with no site there acceptable cortex x will not develop the ability to see input from the eye to the brain which is needed in the first years of life to fine tune the visual processing abilities experience if this is lacking than the I pathway becomes ambler or lazy but Toni Moreland His at York University. Shown that there's some plastic visual cortex in that people who are born with only one type of photoreceptor less like a roderick own. The I can show signs of remapping of the visual cortex to compensate. And this sort of plasticity doesn't seem to occur if the site silas occurs later in life. Meanwhile if you'd like to get in touch the email addresses Chris at the naked scientists dot com. You can find us on facebook or tweet at naked scientists and all the papers for the stories stories we've covered can be found online at the naked scientists dot com the naked scientists podcast is produced in association with Spitfire Cost Effective Voice Internet and the Ip Engineering Services UK businesses. Find out how Spitfire can impact your company Spitfire dot coach. UK Music in the program is sponsored by epidemic. Sounds perfect music for audio and video productions now last month a very very special multimillion dollar facility opened up Murdoch University in Perth Western Australia. It's the Australian national fee GNOME Center. It stopped by an international team. Many of Kim recruited from the UK and their aim is to do for biochemistry and Human Health while the large Hadron Collider has done for physics and potentially revolutionize the way we do medicine isn't the basic idea is to use very high end analytical technology to sift through thousands of different molecules that you find in human body to spot patterns or fingerprint imprint changes in the levels of those different chemicals that predict diseases that a person hasn't got yet but they could go on to develop in years to come in. Tell something about how you are who you are. If you have the disease from this chemical fingerprint the dream would take people through from birth through the years and build a map of their life for their biochemistry and you know their background genomics. So when somebody becomes Paulie you already know about them and you would know what needs to be fixed so we could actually tyler lots that we know of till should be We can take the blood or the urine Anthony Anthony individual and workout concentration as is actually in there and then Change does so. We do have a long-term idea for the toilet which is where your toilet becomes intelligent and measures things that are about your health. Imagine a world where your toilet can tell if you're not totally well where can tell your fridge exactly. What kind of foods would put you back on the right path? A world where a quick breath simple could measure. How much of a drug you actually needed or even detect diseases before? They've had a chance to really hurt you. That's the world that could be opened up by phenome- CTS texting disease through the hundreds hundreds of thousands of molecules in your body. But how can a field like this even work. Some virtue from the University of Cambridge talked me through. Oh how diseases can changing. It's important to realize that. Virtually every disease we now look at will have some component of metabolism to it. Metabolism metabolism is basically all of the biochemical processes that go on in our body to enable us to both live and thank grow so we can think about very basically when we eat a meal that will be hold series of biochemical Oh processes that will go on the food that we get into. Our Body will be broken down and then rebuilt up insulin molecules. Our body needs so almost all diseases will lead to alterations in how the body processes nutrients how it stores nutrient nutrients and therefore depending on how these nutrients change we will be able to detect different metabolites a metabolite is a breakdown product of nutrient. So we could say a metabolite. The Light of glucose we could say the ultimate one maybe as carbon dioxide and water if we ox dies but there are lots of bits. Inbetween going from Glucose Glucose molecule to the carbon dioxide and water that comes out breath and if we have diseases that impact on metabolism we'll be able to attack different molecules and those can be detected in blood some can be detected in sweat in urine and also in breath. So why does this feel go ahead of us now where we know talking about smart twins. The Australian National Film Center has recently opened planned to analyze the chemicals those in the bodies of millions of Straits. Chris jetted out there and got a tour of the facility on spoke to one of the people behind the whole thing. Jeremy Nichols listens the work. We're going to do here. We'll be measuring fundamental metabolic properties of humans by the general population and those the patients and the aim of that is to understand how genes and environment come together to create disease at how expresses itself in metabolism. So that when you use information to predict disease risks and furthermore when you have that sort of analytical capability to measure details can also use that to monitor therapeutic interventions in clinical situations to see if somebody's getting metabolic well or getting worse on all things happened during the what we call the patient the journey and we can use that type of monetary approach to optimize therapies and to see what basically works for what people it's always a personalized healthcare chiropractic. Why is this better? Than just reading my genome. It's different reading the genome the gene. I'm tells quad a lot about out and potentially about featured disease risk but it also tells you about particular defects relates to different subtypes of disease but most diseases have a huge environmental influence whether you get a disease or not will be dependent genes and apparently depending on how you you have your lifestyle you have any exercise is whether you eat and the vast majority of common disease is really likes to gene environment interaction so jeans not enough to stratified patients on their own and all sides when you looking at genomics. That's very good about for classifying certain types of patients. Before you start the hospital journey. Eugene does not change during the hospital journey whereas your metabolism physiology does you can therefore use that output as a representation of the success or not of the therapy. What's the strategy of using here to actually establish the pheno of the average human in Western Australia by doing studies? We can try and find out what normality is is no malice and what is health. A healthy profile is the target for any therapy. So what we're trying to do is take therapies in patients are sick and see if they move you in the direction of health that you can actually attribute to particular chemical pathways for you can use that as a metric off off respond to this non responder and how will therapy is working flat person if one took visual analogy if I drew a landscape where the high hi and low points on that landscape correspond to how different levels of different molecules in my body relate to each other. You'd know what the normal pattern of the landscape was for or a healthy in inverted commas person and if someone had Mount Everest in the middle of their landscape. You'd know that something would gone wrong with a particular group of molecules. Could you therefore ask. What do I have to change about that person's environment that lifestyle dot or do I give them a pill in order to level Mount Everest? So they're landscape resembles healthy healthy one. Yes so things in your body you hopefully born healthy and if you have that lifestyle in drink too much. Et Watch is whatever is done. Exercise enough you move into a different physiological state is what we call it. I- pathos physiological state is not a disease but is in a different front state and it says the state that has a pathway to disease. When you get to a certain level of pathophysiology actually abnormal physiology? It becomes becomes very difficult to go back. And then you get a disease and then what you're doing treating disease to try and eliminate that particular problem the first part of this. He's trying to build a map of what human physiology looks like. which helps you understand where you need to get to flat population? The dream would be tight. People through from birth through the years awesome and build a map of their life for their by chemistry. And you know their background genome makes so that when somebody becomes poorly not how it a lot about them. And you know what needs to be fixed but furthermore if you know those people now detail than you would also be able to prevent. Disease is the ultimate aspiration then to having used these very powerful analytical typical instruments. You have here to discover what these relationships are you them build something which is a very small very fast analytical device that could for instance it in a chemist's shop or a doctor's office or even a person's own bathroom inside so the trick is to know what it is to put in the device so ultimately our discoveries within the launch Phoenix Center will be translated into primary healthcare and potentially the home with smaller devices. Just made the right things low cost so we do. You have a long-term idea for the toilet which is where your toilet becomes intelligent and making things that are about your health and potentially tells you that you should. You need a checkup. The doctors that will be the future and that would have a massive change in population. Not only the potential detecting disease in population but also attention the way that people behave because people often given advice by epidemiologists or whatever say eat red meat more fruit and things like that. That's fine people edified noncompliant about that but if you have a machine in your toilet saying you're really not very well today. I and it for the following reasons you much more likely to all your children look as they. I'm not asking you all very much more likely to action that and therefore that becomes a really major contribution to prevent admits. What's actually really going on in the body to make this whole thing even possible? What fee no wants a phenotype back to Sam Virtue Finot Mix is the study of being types. So you can have all sorts of different phenotype what we think of. In terms of maybe fee nomex in the phenotype types we're looking at because we will be seen diabetes. We'll be things like the actual physical manifestation so an obesity phenotype is how heavy you are. Maybe you'll be mine. Line at Diabetes phenotype would be. Do you have High Blood Glucose so if we've been kind of understanding at a basic level phenomena certain and phenotype for a while now. Why is something like this center in Western Australia? Such such a big deal. Because with the events of technology we've begun to be able to look much more sophisticated phenotype and much more detail and start looking at many many many different aspects aspects of biology. So if we think about diabetes and example which is what I work on the very first phenotype for diabetes date back to the Egyptians and and it was the fact that people would have sweet tasting urine but diabetes a complex disease with many many different components interacting to lead to see this ultimate clinically. Observable sign of High Glucose so with the proposal in Western Australia Phenomenon Center. What what they'll be able to do is not just measures the glee which simply tells you someone already has diabetes and they may have had it for many years undetected but to look at hundreds if not thousands thousands of different molecules within the body which all interacting part of metabolism to look at things like proteins to look at things like fats and see all these things which can predict whether people will go on to develop diabetes? They can also then start to break. Pop this one overall classification of diabetes. I you have highly into different types. And this that enables us to think about targeting medically medically different people with different phenotype which are leading to diabetes with diplomats and we make it better. Clinical Outcomes outcomes some virtue there no much. You're smart toilet has told you that you're not well so you go to the doctor on your doctor's desks a little black books with just a tiny blood sample every problem you might have is revealed along with a potential solution. So how will the measurements. This little black box makes be made in the first place Elaine homes is an analytical chemist must helping to lead the initiative at the new Australian national fee GNOME Center. She took Chris through. The samples will be processed in the lab. Here we all in the the first stop on our sample journey. Well you can see the room. It's about Jill average size of living room and it's full of large magnets and these magnus look if you imagine the giant tier so each of these big tears contain the greater than the whole of the magnetic field within the CAM and so you think think in terms of the big madness I would pull your car put in scrap heap. This is way way more powerful than those. And that has the effect talk of doing what to the sample as it goes down inside the cam well. The magnetic field is pretty strong in some chemical some atoms that have have a property recall spin. So they're like little bar magnets and they're spinning. When you put them into a magnetic field they start to line up with the failed field and then shoot some energy in radio frequency? Pulse it makes these little bar magnet split. And then as they relax locks again back to their their relaxed position. If you like their emitting energy and you pick this up because every chemical has different atoms they interact with magnetic field in a slightly different way and these small differences. We can pull up heart and you end up with a series of peaks which we call molecular fingerprint. This actually is a very quick technique. If you you sampling you can have a spectrum you can have the old fingerprint if you like within five minutes so Nmr. Nuclear magnetic resonance is a very speedy way to identify lots of molecules in a single sample. And to do it very cheaply but what sorts of things can the team look for a m- what does the output from the machines actually actually looked like some lodge so it results for transformation into summit kudos spectrum which has to access on the vertical axis who'll be intensity so if something that's very concentrated to offset high-intensity on the bottom axis something ppm parts per million this is the point which resonates looking at this computer screen. This is an example of the sort of thing that the machine would generate. This looks like almost a Sawtooth and so the height of each of those peaks corresponds wants to how much of the substance was in the sample that you put into the machine and along the x axis these are all the different types of chemical that it's picking up yes so it's a little bit more complicated than that so h peak. He's essentially an from a proton in a particular chemical environment. Cy One metabolite my have except for different pigs because you might get different compounds with different proton environments. So how'd you saw them all out then. How does because that just looks like a really complicated Sawtooth? How'd you work out? What chemicals that corresponds to run standards and they standards a one particular chemical so we can get a chemical chemical signature? I see so you run a bunch of known chemicals through you know what patent may would produce and you just compare what comes from your sample to what you know no it should look like and then you can say that's in there. That's that's an to give practical example and say. The doctor puts me on antibiotics at the moment. The dose that we prescribe for people is just to standardise rainy adult but my metabolism might be different. Your metabolism so the amount I'm taking might be different than the amount that you would actually need to take could you use. Is this to work out. How much antibiotic there is in my blood compared to say your blood and therefore workout whether I'm metabolising foster than yours and therefore Taylor my dose better yes you can do that because Mr is that she quantitative we can say any drug compound within a sample measure the concentration so essentially we entitled dose to Be Perfect for that particular individual so notre sure what is Oh molecules but you can look at things we put in from outside? Yes and it's not just drugs either so we can look at different food compounds. For example someone that eats a lot of meats would have a high amount of carnitine in their blood a urine. Someone that's eighteen of fish will have a compound. TMI and that changes dependent on the time from consumption so it's almost like dietary forensics. You can work with someone's lying coming to you when they when they say they've eaten certain things you can make out what they really. And then even when they've eaten it yes yes we can pick up. Things are called caffeine and every food has a different mark which we can identify so we know exactly what someone's eight and if you're not actually actively looking for those things will they nonetheless be present in these readouts so that you could go back and and look for them later if someone a research comes to you and says well actually Sam. I'm doing a study on this substance in the blood and you happen to have screened a million people by then. Could you go due to your computer and just pull out a million people's with these traces and look for that particular molecule. That's interesting for that researcher. Yes you can the way. The data animal dikshit actually stored is let achieve very powerful because we can run something now or in five years time we can overlay them and compare them some large. What about the things that I can't tell you like substances present in only tiny amounts elaine homes again so now we want to go a little bit deeper pet into the profile? Find out a little bit more about what's in your sample so we come to the second stage which is mass spectrometry laboratory so this room a little bigger as you can see and it's full of sixteen different machines. It looks like a big big box for the big stick coming out of the box and these are all type of mass spectrometer that we use to do screening readings which trying to look at everything we can in your sample. We don't tell the machine I want to look at fats. I want to look at sugars. We just put it in and we want to capture everything we can about the sample. Was this Houston wise this different or what does this do few that. We can't get out of the machines next next door and Imam. Machines are very reliable so you can measure things very accurately but it doesn't doesn't have the capacity to go to really really low concentrations maybe for other diseases. You want to look at your hormones or things that a president very tiny concentrations inspirations and this is where mass spectrometry comes into its own an. How did these machines work? Compared with what the machines do these machines Sheen's still separate molecules out but they didn't a slightly different way so separated in two ways. The first is called chromatography. And that's where you put your your blood sample or urine sample onto a column different chemicals stake in different chemicals go straight through and you can then run some liquid through this. I'm they'll start to bleed out of the column but it is slightly different rate and we can catch them as Komo you can then separate them a little further by putting them into the mass spectrometer part and this is really just a weighing machine. All you're looking at. Here's how much your molecule ways and what its charge is. How do you work out? What the actual molecule is? Because if you just get a weight and you just let's get to charge. There are lots of different possible arrangements of atoms. That could be that way to not charge. That had you sought out. We have databases but we've looked at molecules molecules standard molecules chemicals. You can buy so we know what some are but you don't always know what they are in these cases what you need to do is separate me. Even further secret a single chemical and then you blast the chemical party split it up and break it and you look at the fragments. How much each little part of the molecule ways and why could jigsaw puzzle? You pull them all back together at all the way to make sense of of the whole picture lane homes so then we know how it all works. What sorts of questions are the team? Going to be tackling Luke Wiley and Nikola Gray are two of the project scientists so in terms. Aw using these state of the platforms will be looking initially to develop methodologies making sure that those methodologies very robust so that we can use them not only now but in years to come and they'll be able to run many many thousands of samples and always give same reliable data that we need and we rely on that information to then make inferences as to how a disease is progressing in particular population. We're also looking at the mechanisms behind. Why particular diseases occur Y particular populations are more susceptible to developing a disease would be looking at how environments and how lifestyle what we eat affects that disease risk by doing that. We can hopefully prevent a lot of these diseases from occurring so we're looking at diseases such as dementia Obesity type two diabetes big global health. Problems that we know a largely affected by our environment so it's really trying to pinpoint exactly how the environment increases those risks enabling us to reduce them and developing better therapies to reduce those disease risks. Luke my research. She's going to be looking at way. People Age and the way people have disease through age in particular looking at how that impacts cognitive health and a brain health. So we what we do do is. We can look at people's Polish profiles and see if there are any trends in people's aging and if we can spot trends perhaps we can give policy advice of what can even help healthy aging we identify things are causative of neurodegeneration or cognitive problems as people age. So I'm very interested looking at A variety of impose by tissue and for example urine and blood samples in just really trying to understand how people age and how they metabolism changes as as people age because one of the goals is what we call a healthy or longer health span rather than just lifespan. Because it's more quality over quantity things and it will become very good in the ordinary. People live for what feels like forever for some people but unfortunately there's been a significant amount of that time in ill health we want to minimize that. Yes exactly actually so. If we can improve the quality of life an example would be outside disease if we can understand disease more and slow down the progression ndas. Eight people are going to have a higher quality of life longer and we can really make real gains and enjoyment in life as H. How do you go from a bunch of molecules so on a graph which is what you're going to see from from these machines in here to practical advice to somebody? You need to eat more bananas. Your task seems bit low. How do you actually get those sorts conclusions out of the cocktail of chemicals emerged from these machines? So it's it's very complex and one of the biggest challenges that we face so once we've actually actually identified these molecules. We then would have to validate that S- so what we would potentially do is to look at that in a more controlled environment so it might potentially be an intervention city where participants will be in a very controlled environment will give them very specific diet and we would look to. We'll see how that would affect their metabolites potentially disease risk markers hunting through the haystack. Here chemical needles in haystacks that might be indicative of certain diseases. Disease is certain risks for diseases and then once you think you've found them then you're going to intervene in people and and do a proper controlled experiments. If we change those things will change. John Comes exactly the initial that we can play is certainly the discovery end of the lifespan. And as we progress as we start to understand more about that that metabolism I am and how metabolic systems are behaving in health and disease. Then we can take that forward for validation and for real intervention impact say the long term plan is is be involved at all stages of that process Luke Wiley and before him Nikola Greg but it's not just about what goes on inside our bodies ladies you can point the powerful finger phenomenal at the food we eat to an explore how different cooking techniques will affect the nutrient quality of meal. My Name Amos Railing Lou. I'm the premier early to mid career fellow. Currently we don't know too much about the chemical composition of the food when you cook them how you cook them that is going to change the chemical Geico compensation again by doing all this different experiment. We can cook differently before we put it through the instrument. Danny can give us the full picture of was the kind of vitamin that's loss if we new those chemical composition have health benefit to us how we can maintain those molocue. That's what we want to do really so when I barbecue chicken nick we know. It has a risk of cancer but chemically. We don't know why you're saying if we feed into machines like this we can work out. What the molecules are that might be linked to those disease states? Yep so that we can see what other changes of molecule when is fresh. We haven't done anything to competitive if we barbecue me. What are the changes on? Those are going to step further. Are you also going to ask the question if I cook it and eat it. What effect to these different cooking methods have on my biochemistry so because all of us have a very unique set of gut microbes bacteria that we all have a specific function? So the way if I eat this piece of chicken boy that probably better for me because of of my gut bacteria compared to somebody else. So that's what we wanted to differentiate so that we can be able to precisely tell you whether you're better off eating a piece of that she can boy or maybe a piece of fruit because that would be better for them. So you can debunk. Some of these claims about foods. Being extra good view blueberries being superfoods and all this kind of income. Actually say say yes. Look I've got plausible scientific evidence or actually this is bunkum. Don't waste your money so hopefully. That's the goal that we wanted to be able to. The meat defy some of these claims really early and will listen to prescribe. What actually constitutes healthy diet one day then? If I can do that that'll be great. That would be my aim laudable and very realistic one at that so it's clear we are moving into a very exciting era for medicine on that will enable us to keep more people living well for longer but it's also clear that the hard work is only just beginning. We leave you with this from Jeremy Nicholson genes and environment come together to create your disease risk. They create you. The things that we want to do is understand how those come together exactly by studying the chemistry body so that we understand the origins of disease and therefore can inform future healthcare policy. When somebody becomes ill we use the same technologies? He's for moving unhealthy space into a healthy space. which we've already defined by the white chemistry the whole population the German Dickerson and there? We must leave. That's it for this week. Thanks to Adam who put the program together and and do be sure to tune in next time when it's all things custard yes. You did hear that correctly. We're taking a deep dive right into deserts. The signs of custard coming to the naked scientists next week. Any thoughts comments or feedback. In the meantime you can address those two Chris at the naked scientists dot com. Don't forget we're running out donation drive if you do like the program program and you would like to help us out. We would be very grateful. Indeed you got to naked scientists dot com forward slash donate. We do have a target try and hit this year. We're about halfway there police. Do you help us if you can naked scientists dot com forward slash. Donate the naked. Scientists comes to you from Cambridge University and it's supported by the EPA and Rose Royce. I'm Chris thanks for listening until next time goodbye.

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Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, Trauma Expert

Finding Mastery: Conversations with Michael Gervais

1:13:10 hr | 1 year ago

Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, Trauma Expert

"Sudanese worlds are all been traumatized as these extrordinary solutions. Come from people who have been have have grown up on the circumstances. Extremely stressful. Whereas the find their Ogle way that's not the way of the people around him as the people growing up in perfectly safe and predictable. Sororities probably could save bricks for dateable brains way. Okay. Welcome back to the finding mastery podcast. And if you're new welcome to the community in these conversations, my name is Michael javale, and by trade and training a sport in performance at colleges as well as the co founder of competes to create in the whole idea behind these conversations is to learn from people who have committed their life efforts to the path of mastery to the nuances of their craft to understanding themselves, a master of craft mastery of self in. We wanna dig to understand how they organized their inner world how they relate and connect to other people how they explain events that take place we really want to understand that's all fancy for their psychological framework. We wanna know their mental skills at a used to build refine their craft, and we want to understand what they are searching for. Okay. As you probably know by now, we've partnered with the team at athletic greens, flat out because I love the product. I really. Enjoy the product, and it's a complete whole food supplement designed to cover all of your basic nutritional needs, and it's for me. It's like it's an insurance policy. Yes, I eat as many green leafy vegetables possibly can. And when I take a lot of greens. It's like, okay. I've got a little extra boost to make sure that I'm getting the right stuff in at least. That's how I'm thinking about it. And for most of our listeners north of the equator people are north of equator summer is approaching and as the weather's getting warmer, and it's getting hotter outside like, it's a great way to start the day. Pablo cold water athletic greens, shake it up? That's how I do it. That's how we do it at the family. Sometimes we'll make shake with some other nutrients in there just to get kind of texture to change just a little bit like a little smoothie esque if you will but will ice in it. So anyways, those of you who haven't tried this product out yet. I want encourage you to do it athletic greens. They've got a really great offer that they put together for the funding Masri community in. It's a free twenty count travel pack it's valued at ninety nine dollars. It's free with. Any purchase that you have over there Meyer recommendation? Check out what they're doing check out the fidelity of how they're approaching it listened to the podcast with the the founder, Chris ashington in check that out and then head over to athletic, greens dot com forward slash finding mastery and take him up on the offer. Now this week's conversation is with Dr Besset vendor. Call he's a clinician or researcher in a teacher in the area of post traumatic stress and he spent his career studying how people adopt to traumatic experiences, and he's translated emerging findings from neuroscience and attachment research to develop a range of potentially effective treatments for traumatic stress in you might be thinking. Well, okay. Why would I listen? I don't have PTSD in houses conversation going apply to me. Well, first and foremost, it's about insight, and it's about growth. Secondly, what you might be surprised to learn is how many of us are -ffected by trauma. But don't realize it. According to Dr Vander Coke's research seventy five percent of American suffer from some type of past traumatic experience. So in this conversation, he shares strategies for getting to the root of the trauma in how to change the relationship the story in the skills to grow and trauma comes from so many forms in so do people's responses to it. So it's complicated. This is not simple. But what's important to remember is that just because someone looks like they have it altogether on the outside. It doesn't mean. Everything's okay. On the inside in. Dr Vanderbilt's words, some people adapt amazingly, well and win Nobel prizes or MacArthur grants because of all of the energy, they put into just pushing things aside. But that doesn't mean that they're necessarily resilient even though they may accomplish amazing things. They may go to bed. Feeling devastated. Lonely and breath or they may still drink or cut themselves or do things to manage their bodies protesting against stuff. So what you see is not necessarily. What you get powerful insight. It's a powerful reminder for all of us that what you see is not what you get. And so with that. Let's jump right into this conversation with Dr bell vendor. Coke Dr van der Kolk. Thank you for spending some time for this conversation. I've been looking forward to this for a long time surviving. Lead. Good. Okay. Good. So you've spent your entire life efforts working to understand PTSD post traumatic stress disorder in. I'm really looking forward to diving in about what you've come to understand. How you've come to understand it. And how that shaped your worldview and potentially how it has impacted millions of people. So you're right at the epicenter of defining it four the institutional manual, the the the bible if you will have disorders like you've been right at the epicenter of this, very stressful mind, body and brain altering experience for people. So again, thank you for sharing your insights wisdom here. Get delays. Okay. Good. So let's jump into it. Why PTSD why have you spent your life efforts studying trauma in stress and the responses to the two of those oh does a very difficult question. You know, you full into full into and then the spirit catches you and you fall down, and then you see UCLA stuff Advani's internally. But also there's laws external validation like a lot of people go like he had that experience. What's going on? This has been in normal a journey of discovery in. To so many ways mental hills and security has been so a stuck and to understand has been looking or the chemistry of mental illness and into did genome for mental illness. But to know how people drive people crazy and how we are. So at the core, social creatures and our history so much shapes who we are has been normally the enforcing and all this new knowledge comes out part how experience shapes the brain. Lord research on attachment patterns, Emma dust to up people organized a realities form them maps world is all to cut in edge of brain science and mental science. And and also, of course, it has a debrief as inside because we keep I like people around me. Keep doing stuff doesn't make sense from a racial or view and be all bears who do see that. The don't make sense to me start looking where it's come from you. Oh, yeah. That's was an adaptive response back then. But too bad that this adaptive response continues onto today when it messes up your life. In in your one of your most recent books. The body keeps score. It's love it for those who those who are listening that haven't read it. It's I think it's really important to read and you're stop titles, import brain mind and body in Detroit Matic of or in the treatment of trauma. So you've separated which I do as well. But I linked them as well. And in in you do as well, so brain mind and body. Can you talk about why you've separated them out and how you'll let her sleep the other Bill you can only combine him after your separate anyway, headed a much of psychologists still in your head. Faye? Tricky. Did I realized that no? We carry our trauma in heartbreaking dot venting sensations as you feel in your body. Your body reacts. It's very sensory experience that you bane vegetables or doesn't month register or drives to do something this. So to some degree Thomas is about a struggle between mind to the body listening. Not trying to listen because trauma means that you get overwhelmed by something. Terrible your body feels terrible helpless and crunched you mind says forget about let's go on you buddy, keeps putting you back to you'd like to go. Look, I'm fitting freaked out and fitting nervous, pinning angry older time. I'm feeding beaten down. I come up in the morning. And so you body keeps you from your mind months so desperately wants to be national reasonable. Unless you why is the is trauma, so traumatic and I'm not sure that that is clear enough because traumatic things happen. But for some people, it's not it's not traumatizing. It is just an event that they register yet people say that. But you know, the people who come to see me, but I listened to the details of their stories. I never have the reaction of oh, you city, you how can you be all upset about it? You need to hear the details. What happen to see your good being run over by drunk driver by heavy your best friend blown up in front of you. Being responsible for other people's death in a car crash. Being king rapes being molested fund yourself. In situations vary you fill out of the helpless to do anything. It. It is a hope we can say on the air as oh shit experience. Oh my God. I as a is nothing I can do to make this go away. Vidi phased. Only got a I wasn't prepared for this. I will never get better. I'll never live this down. And so it's a is situation being overwhelmed by what's happening. Initiate fee pointed out at that point people become dumbfounded and and struck with pizzas stairs, like a whole 'push your Bank, shutdown of icon, tell this. Okay. So it could is it fair to thin slice trauma in in maybe two or three ways like PTSD t with a big capital T, which the some of the event you just described in PTSD with a small T. Yep. I've never liked the because what people describe as small t experiences can be so devastating. And I don't minimize it. Having growing up with parents who don't see who don't validate you who don't respond to you having a partner who keeps the is on the screen on dozens. Respond to you. When you look as something to say people space out. I very bad experiences being ignored as a person is a terrible experience. Being seen not being known being ignored being disregarded is goes at the core of who we are. We are social creatures for to be native neaby part of it velvet parts of a team and then being treated as being relative devastating experience. I took one of your lectures, and I'm struck by the poetry in which you see the world and the depth that you resonate in. So you're hitting on both of those in this conversation already now when when okay, so what you just described are potentially small T categories. But when you describe it, it's like, no, of course, there's no such thing as a small T like it's it is a complete disregard for the human experience in that is traumatizing in those moments. If you don't matter if but ever you do or. Say is completely irrelevant to dot com situation. That is too many. Now when you have been if you become fury to me I become scared, and you don't respond to my fearful face and keep screaming at me. I would become increasingly shutdown and terrified and signed to key. Staying control as you completely ignored signals that I'm giving you stop this up to say heard me, that's very much very big part Thomas. Whatever you need update to particular point complete. The Notre guarded by circumstances are people whatever's going I've heard you talk about that three quarters of the American population experienced trauma, and yeah, that's about to figure that the need's criteria. A on the scale of piteous when we started over PTSD is defined as it expands oxides of normal Unix is the beside look people experience. Just stunning how much people actually get exposed to. Yeah. So how do you make sense that if three quarters have experienced trauma that may be I don't know what the actual numbers? I'm sure you do that five percent of the population. Actually, do the work to sort it out. And I'm making that number five percent. Maybe a little bit higher hit might be him. You know, what would you guess, what is your guess around there? I don't I wouldn't have to go there. The figures when it give figures electing to be fairly accurate, and I'll tell you where while I'm being sloppy with that is I just wanna credit dramatic. Storyline that if three quarters have experienced, my my personal experiences, a psychologist is that so many people are so few people are actually doing the deep real work to deal with it can't be three quarters of the population. So it's far less than that. So how how are people how are people doing well in life that have experienced trauma? Will you know, people always like to talk about and. But it's been very by doing this work is you deal with Trump is people who are eager to do work. You meet the essence of the life force that people have had renders experiences, and they keep trying to keep going on. They keep fighting for having a life. And so we as human beings are survivors people survive in any way, they can some people survive by shutting down some people survive taking drugs. Some people try survive by going to live in the woods. Some people's drive by becoming trolling chronic mentally medically ill people getting care for their bodies. While the rest themselves is being Lord. But people make some sort of addition. And but for me is a fascinating is all the different ways that people that some people adapt amazing debate and win Nobel prizes are MacArthur grants because of all the energy put into just pushing things aside and cultivating those things, but that doesn't mean that they're necessarily resilience even though may accomplish amazing things. They may go to bed feeding devastated lonely and bereft are they may still drink are cut themselves do out space to manage their bodies vote testing yesterday. So what you see is not necessarily what you get cool thought really cool thought. So if we use a classic example of someone who's been through trauma, and it's come through the other side Viktor Frankl, Dr Frankel. How would you imagine that? That story makes sense. Well, victim Frank was a great inspiration from me as a student to become a psychiatrist Senator, and you know, young boy. And I believe everything I read and then as an adult, I'm not sure, but to believe about Dr does about about a story. I don't want to hear this. I heard too many goldfish against Moore's to gaze if people are generous Boreham give giving on the extreme circumstances noted this so as after having seen trauma, I've become some skeptical doesn't mean as a few Trump dispute, some extraordinarily generous and become Bill consciousness carriers in our society module, Maya Angelou, possibly, a provincial yourself are people who have been traumatised who really have dealt as an end can change the culture. Okay. Quick to talk about her eight week. Online course where we pull back the curtain to show you how world class, athletes and performers train their mind and organiz their life. So that you can apply those same principles in your life. It's about flat out flourishing in life for us in. This course is about conditioning your mind to live in the present moment more often in that's the only place the only place where high-performance is expressed in wisdom revealed. And so the name of the course is called finding your best one of our core values is that were anchored deeply in science and our staff both have been in the trenches on the world stage and have a rich understanding of the application of solid signs. So we can sign up for the course, you'll have access to Olympia that's who've also meddled in the games who will be a resource for you to help you take your training as far as you possibly can take it. And it's just, you know, they don't know another way. It's just the same way that they've or. Their life when they were world class athletes. This program is for businessmen and women parents and explorers athletes, artists in weirdos alike. If you're like us just a bit off access more interested in what you don't know them. What you do know committed to a meaningful life playing at the edge of your capacity and potential. We can't wait to roll up our sleeves with you. So the next course starts may twenty second in the final day to apply is may fifteenth, and you can learn more and apply at compete to create dot net. Ford slash finding mastery again, that's compete to create dot net Ford slash finding mastery. And if you go there, you'll receive fifty dollars off the course so with that with jump right back into our conversation. Okay. So so you're you're you're you have a bright line three thinking, which is intil you address how the body stores in uses trauma. Adopt a maladaptive or for in adoptive ways than until then you are captured by using a fair thing to say, and so is it. So if we deconstruct a little bit the body holds the mind plays the loops the video loops over and over again when it smells sees thinks. It's getting close to the original trauma, and then the brain lights up and shuts down in particular region regions that protect the protect basically the body is that close. Yeah. But see the mind something else. I think the mind says don't be stupid. Don't pay attention to it. I think I think the the mind tries to go on and has a different role in survival than. The survival brain. So you mind says just don't wind don't don't cry. Don't from few bad yourself, go on be pickier. So you try to be contained to be a normal member of your tribe said people will not extraju so you're trying to live up to people's expectations. But may get feminist survival brain keep sending messages to you that you are in danger as a as an internal conflict. The you want to be an how you present yourself and the message that you get from deep inside. Like this person is go to hurt me disperses go to. Victimize me or dispersing this untrustworthy or whatever. So so you live love internal go fifteen two different messages in your in your bay might embody and the most common Vientiane into that is just to shut the system. And that's what you see in. Our latest base cans is that the area of insulin and the product debate it tells you what your body needs and better to you guada- umbrella or you really need to read sunscreen. So you get the message anticipation about it needs has something salience that's called a salient center, brain me, the the butts was important to you. It's not a window salient center. Runs away with you and forces you to pay attention to stuff all the time. You learn to shot it down Saint noticed important as ignored is ignored. And if you learn to ignore stuff allergic, your everything else also said the price for ignoring is. When important things you lifestyle process you buy. Oh, jeez. I'm familiar with research that with military operators and the took a look at their insular cortex as it relates to mindfulness as part of a an adoptive training program in the yeah. And so I'll push that research over the I think it's lifted advocate find so basically that mindfulness had a positive impact on insulin functioning in showing up showed up in new yoga researchers. So I've seen his other people's from Swedish is that that weird as what your body is feeding come such fun coming along. And that's meditation can be so hard for trauma survivors. Yeah. Yeah. This is important to keep it like, yes. Meditation to a large degree is important outsor-. But people think that trauma is offended heaven go that's not what. Trauma is trauma is that your body via now keeps feeling as if the passive others happening. Okay. So let let's let's hold hold that thought as we can't in bap it on something that I'm confused by okay? In seoul. I work unfortunate to work with some of the best of the best of the best in a cross of Riecke of domains. And if we use you could pick any sport or any art, really and let you sport, for example. I was part of a team that had a dramatic loss. It was a Super Bowl loss at the last moment was the Seattle Seahawks against the New England Patriots. And it was we're on the half yard line in half yard line. There was a series events that took place. We lost the game. And there was some people three years later despite best efforts to care to challenge. The support that some people were not able to let go. And okay. So we map it on what we're talking about. Now, it certainly was traumatic the way that they they engaged in relationships from that point four was just really hard. Pushing how was it hard? But how did it? Get stuck in them relationships became fractured. The con conversations became about the they shifted from trust to mistrust they shifted from almond control to feeling out of control, it exasperated other stuff that they had kind of dormant inside of them in their identity began to fracture. And so their identity prior to that moment was I'm an elite athlete in in when I apply. Great volition effort things worked out for me. And I'm like great effort, and how could how could this happen? You know in in. So the. In the health of the person, the people that I'm thinking of began guest deteriorate. And but now that being said, let's say there's a hundred some people on on that were part of that intimately part of that that loss not including a fans that were possibly traumatized as well. But like inside the locker room as one hundred seven men. I'd say you don't ninety five percent of them got through it with some time who ends in those five percent that just got stuck. So can would would that be fair to say that you could take a dramatic loss? And where I'm thinking is that there's no redundancies in the brain. You know, grief centers and loss of I dunno car keys. Maybe in a stressful event can operate in similar fashions, and I don't want to minimize anything. But if there's no redundancies at loss of a important event could have triggered or gut Kaden. You. It's nothing nothing is ever simple or linear. So we come into situations with our prior background. And if if by experiences of being helpless and seeing let's say domestic violence child. He's Ted by you say why that big enough to do something about this and probably fighting because I'm a terrible child's sort of thing. So you you have to Lilly indebting singing, you might you know, you don't think about it since there. And then later on you have an experienced that makes you once again feel helpless, and like by didn't do something then old attitude at Owl's orientation to the world gets revived. And so these adults to mimic incidents him be very deliberately ignored by me. I which PD diagnosis together because it's too complex, but the earlier childhood perceptions of. World do impact on how you see further changes. So if you come into a demand loss like that with a law background of the road to save the real to spill works of I've always have parents who there for me. Then it's probably it will be much easier to tolerate such a thing than if you come into deficit background of two medics voter, okay to remain all have led to PTSD enough itself. Right. Okay. There's always cumulative. Okay. Okay. So if there's two threads on that one is how do you help that person in? I know you spent a lot of time on treatment and studying potential Yana treatment ex. And so if the so it you said something so eloquent early on which was the man or woman, I'm trying the person I'm trying to become there's a conflict with that image and the way that I'm actually representing myself. Right. So that that tension quote were experiencing myself yet experiencing myself, right? So I I am experiencing myself to be tense tight in agitated, but I wanna be fun loving fluid and numb fully present engaging. Right performing well. And I'm tencent tight. Okay. So some sort of tension in there. How do you help the person who their adoptive response to the trauma is to blame their environment? As opposed to take some. Sort of internal inventory in say, I have I feel helpless. So they're saying, I felt helpless. I feel out of control. It is not my fault. I'm a victim of the circumstance. And if you guys just didn't or would do or, you know, whatever, then I'd be okay. Like, how do you have that? But can you still? He's only very relevant questions goes the reality deal with everyday is. Yes. This to some degree need to law yourself to notice you help us. But this tends to be veteran active like. Just saw this morning again in my office. Hope person. But now feels completely helpless when the effect you could do okay things. But if you go back to an psycho Becca, what would happen. If you start I suggested as person take. Did do Taichi and she says, oh, but I cannot take care of myself. I it's too self-indulgence. And I say how old is that sauce that she said this probably goes back to age six after her mother suicide attempts where she blames herself for mother suicide attempts for having to be too self indulgent, if you just would have looped after mother mother wouldn't have committed suicide and the feeding states with him for invest for life. So she can never do insecure sales because the down hermet of the world is by mother will commit suicide if I do something for myself, and but you do at that point with that particular person to go back to a little girl fell back then and somebody should've helps her. See you go back you go back. Sometimes acoustic something not always. 'cause my first reaction to your the Super Bowl loss is I would start doing EM DR. The I moved desensitization when I read that you were researching MDR I was blown away because it's you know for so long. It's been this hokey pokey thing. And I think the research is trending in the right direction, but more than trending, okay? Yeah. So give me some research on that. And I don't want to forget the second question on say it out loud right now, which is how would you get better at the selection process because right now, I'm gonna make a guess better than fifty percent would be a safe number better than fifty probably somewhere. More like sixty seventy five percent of people in American sport, traditional sport. Especially football in football have suffered trauma in early experiences. You know? And then they do the explode in locker room exploded various places people say how can this amazing basketball player such terrible things on the side you go. He's an amazing tear basketball player who has trauma history who does blows up. Yeah. Surprising. In an is taken incredible risk to put all of their eggs in one basket. We missed we missed that part of the conversation that these young kids, their identity becomes I'm an athlete and every time they go out there complete identity is at risk. That's an rentable amount of tension to carry around what most of us don't have that shrew. Well, I think a lot of people do actually notice notice visibly. So, you know. Yeah. So invisible heroes stuff. But anyway, so. Let's let's open Bjorn for second. Yes. It's hokey and. For years. People said they may still said butts knew about is not good inlets good about his north new. But then we did research fundament national nationally through mental health and be funded eighty percent of people who had adult for for trauma for the first time as an adult the memory melted away. Did just said yes, Viti sucked. Yeses video awful to see people being blown up felt and has happened last June. And now it is a year later, and I have a memory of having had a bad thing happened to be the year ago. But it no longer is in the life thing right now. And so, but you saw it. Effective for will put together at one time horrendous event in Barton eighty percent curate but found is that people have earliest childhood trauma. It's was not nearly as effective because the all stuff kept intruding into things as well. And then we just finished to forever to get V sources again to sunny he finished his study on a new imaging in the stunning. New feedback refined is these I'm movements do allow this. The sense of parts of the brain to communicate to each other to have divisional the auditory end semester. Sensory start communication networks and once his net book, she has established the line brain is able to say oh does. It happened Beck them to note experiences as if it's happening by Dow as but for music festival issue start off with a hokey treatment like doing I movement. And then you go like, oh, why says working so well, and then should do to study you find out much for about how the brain actually fundamentally works as he learned from these strange examples in your practice? The sounds hokey into surface from that you learn more about now. This as memories that's what Steve he going field. She'd just recently on it wasn't a amazing athlete. I'll keep a keep all the titles out of the out of the conversation for immunity in. I mean, I'm talking about amazing. And there was some trauma that was experienced in. I was stuck. And I said, okay. One of my early supervisors is were like really great at NTR's. I punched over or I made the introduction one session. One session. Thirty minutes. You can be stoning the miraculously effective. So for folks who are not familiar with MDR in. This is not meant to be any sort of training. This is like the basic frames. If you just could you just walk through, the basic frames of what the basic issue is you do DR is that you incur somebody somebody to evoke the sensations off the event, but you see here, but he feeling your body. Do you remember what he was thinking? Do remember what that person said to you? But you don't us to talk about it. Because once you talk about it becomes a social issue, and this is about your relationship to association. So you just encourage people to evoke descends Asians off that event mind, but you keep yourself out of it as a Serapis and the us people to go to state ready fuller, your fingers from side to side. Side or the badly. Other alternating movements can also do the same thing other. I love the eye movements. And then something happens in the brain. Imaging me has always been so intriguing is what's happened to debris, and the people who gonna be boarded her like, I myself am aware of the day. The recipient of and is that you go to in the dreamlike state very much like what you might exchange on Sunday morning asleep late. I should lie. Just before you really wake up you have only salt floating through your head there not logical than linear the UA Cup. I'm basically salts disappear. And indeed with habits you into state is hit little pump state. MDR's able to enter induce. Also, your Baynes able to make connections has has not been able to make bake before much. Disconnection you go next. This happened to me. But you know, why should I pay attention to his right now? Because I know it happened to me when I was fall, and it really happened. That's okay. Amazing. I've seen results Reggie research on that point that you just described as where I get confused like how out is that work it. So. So our latest data whichever seal of the invading actually for my collaborators who sent some. Details of some delays work is if this these brain treks get activated allow your brain to say, yes, this is event that actually happened. So you you make internal connections in your brain that allow you to put in the past said, the nature of trauma is that memory become fragmented and get stuck. And I think we have not studied enough. What is it about traumatic memories that gets people to be stuck, and you know, because in memory research people always talk about how do you? Remember this movie? Just saw how you remember events. The memory people are no trauma. People technically have had an astounding still interest in hock medic memories are different from the memories of you. And I talked to each other, right? And what's so stunning? About traumatic memories is as well. Ordinary memories are always disappear gets vehicle structures become vague, contaminated and are always inaccurate in a way because mine doesn't take pictures the nature of traumatic memories is something happens in the brain grassings get stuck, and you don't form as we fations for those. As you see the same thing again or you have the same done feeding again, even though it happened twenty or thirty years ago as a degraded intriguing thing about trauma is how does not form to follow the laws of normal human brain functioning that everything gets in cages, they're normally I thought that if did follow this revival tactic of like a pungent smell is that I need to know recognize if that is bad food because I saw my family die in when they ate that bad. Whatever wrong is tainted. So I worked in the same way. Like, okay, when I hear the screeching of car, or I smell the Herning of something fresh or whatever or or I feel the intensity of the lights where I was so humiliated last time that that my body goes what will will will will? This is what I thought it did follow like an almost fully Infos conditioning lines. But, but you know. I don't think you're Michael is going to be traumatic for either of the two of us. And you people are idols to do of us, but doesn't like to talk to each other yet honor the sort of nice, and we talked about this. But the port on what we were talking about is probably going to be wildly inaccurate. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. We don't remember thinking brain is interested in the details of digital experience. Except when it becomes really really furthering. I say, that's my wife all the time. But she does not. Appreciate it say that does work always writing. I'm always writing. Explaining I do buy volt type two. Explain how irrational beliefs are somehow doesn't get we supposed to of. Oh, thank you. Honey. Now, I know how verts. Okay. You said something that is a I'm not gonna forget that second point about football minute. But being able to feel safe with other people is probably the single most aspect of mental health. Yeah. Save connections are fundamental to meaningful in satisfied lives satisfying lights. So and you said earlier in this conversation that we are social creatures and in. So when you talk about being connected, what are some of the ways that you help people? Be more connected. One just thinks it's always intrigued me is the pleasure of doing season. Silence. With other people anybody who manage those how being medicine together with other people is very different expansion. Meditating yourself. Singing with people thing volleyball with people moving that confer in workshops, Rivera, focus, helping the help people may feel safe is first of all people need to know each other's name and need to name each other. And then we do exercise by moved to actually exercise be learned from taking advanced CEA two classes ourselves where we actor straining, and when people move together, and they can sync with each other so beach balls at each other in the movie others for ruled other being blindfolded they fall into each other's arms. So of semantic experiences of but it feels like to be seemed to be known to have your body be carrying out people stuff like that. Got it. So good. You know? Okay. Song in a us. Your insight in map, it onto something that I'm currently doing at and I want to share this with you just because if I'm excited to share this. So the last eighteen to twenty months in that range might myself and my team we've trained thirty thousand people at eight hours a person. So that's two hundred forty thousand men in women hours on how to train and condition their mind based on what we've learned from the science and pulling back the curtain of how elite performers work such owner forty thousand human hours. Let's thick -rageous. And I feel like we're just getting started. But this is why I want to share with you in that in each session. We meditate once or twice and one in that's like small rooms in large rooms and make sure that we during a meditation process or mindfulness training. We just ask them for moment of gratitude defect. The person to the next to them for for, you know. And so something happens. I can't put my pin on it or my finger on we don't know what's happening in those rooms. But will our is come back open. It's like it's it literally is a funk funky room. It turns different in weird, you know, and as wonderful. Yeah. To be safe in silence was not people accent isn't stoning phenomena. But it's very, social and. To my mind. But you think you're describing is, but I wish would be very substantial part of every school curriculum. I wish people would be less attention. How Koreans are beating us in desk? Cores a more attention to maybe decrees videos in helping his feel safe in the classroom winds for people to feel safe with other people to learn to regulate themselves because people is a life skill that you'd be taught in kindergarten and beyond in every class. How would you do? Oh, I would I would make a meditation yoga Daichi, singing and some form of of. A fairly low level utility a core part every quick if you were to have eight hours with high performing people in fortune one hundred two fifty. Corporations global corporations. What would you do what would be one thing? And I'm asking him for some guidance where he takes to sakes, all your edible body of work and insight, and if there was one thing, so we we've got mind from this anywhere between six to fifteen minutes is kind of what we do together. So we've got what what would be one thing that you would do. I think I might start this. Which might start the just asking people to sit still and she just notice. The bums, but it's like this science, and when they do then is have people, right? You'll note himself this came up for me for most people at the beginning sitting inside as is boring. They're waiting for something else happened. And so I really want people to twelve people's attention inward because we know from your sci-fi search the only way we can change our brain is by going inside and activates whether known as the mid lines quarter structures, which are structures the brain devoted yourself observing a so I would start off. It's a self observing vedic cultivated in people, and then I might do play my next something like a doing beach ball competitions between people and see what it's like to be in sync of human beings does for the sense of pleasure. Enjoy to just tap you'll be around and to feel what it's like to be. In sync with other people in the node them much explored the no-show synchrony the thing issue synchrony between people like fuck maneuvers. I have I have a feeling of maybes by you're such a success interviewed that United think that each other you say something I think no he talked about. And so the sense of oh, I'm being heard I'm being seen unbeatable stood. This person is playing this ball divide affection for the two of us to connect with each other. Is there pleasure comes vnever people feeding sync with the people he ever since September enjoy as. Something I would really like to, cultivate, in whatever known stress away as she can possibly do it. Yeah. So there is a phenomenon. That's not well researched around group flow. So flow has some research around it that's trending and feels good and in the right direction. And we're still young on on from the neuroscience perspective. But Marut flow is like all the sudden in exponential return on insight on performance. And that's what I'm hearing. You hit on is like how could you take people from a safe environment in an introspective environment to maybe even amplify their insular cortex back to thought one from us and harmonize of you know, between each other in a in a supportive way. I before overly challenging way harmonize, I think those as incredibly good word. I like to say nobody is ever committed suicide disinfecting for hours after seeing Handel's messiah. I that may not be true. But I'd be really surprised because if you really are able to harmonize with people, aren't you that gives you buzzes joy since of meaning than a sense of purpose in your life. Is that what dogs how? I wonder if you know. Good fish net. So so do you. Okay. What how do you measure success for you yourself throughout the day? Like, what are your ways because we're talking about harmonising? We're talking on synchronicity. We're talking about me in introspection. I think I think success to me is. A staying focused on what you on the focus on a moving your feel to next area. And it's done that the don't get distracted. Delta gets hijacked a onto b Doug involved in whatever you're doing are, not totally but very involved in what you're doing and having your whole being engaged in what you doing. Okay. So when this goes back to now that question that I had about if you were to help select talent to select people to be part of a difficult working environment. No, no. Yeah. The conditions are difficult for Italy's sport. Which there's an assumption that the best of the best of the best are actually born out of some sort of neurotic, experience or or intention life. Just enough OCD just enough in eroticism just enough narcissism, Geno. Nothing's trauma. Yeah. So what you saw the traumatize. And I know you might say well three fourths of people all the time. So okay. So we'll you don't I don't I don't. That's not really what they do. I initially help help people to. Did not get stuck in the old stuff. In our newer feedback. Of course, we very much are into optimal functioning. So my. One of my main areas research is on newer feedback and how we can help people who are bewildered and fearful and live. They're biffing bring to just become communist, so that can become focused and indeed as a side effect are the main effect be fined much my surprise is at the start off making people less terrified. But but comes up in our research is there's a dramatic improvement in executive functioning the being able to focus it being able to be flexible began to adapt yourself to circumstances. But that's still a Guinness. In. These exceptional talents is Phil function of being able to fight'll extraordinary solution where other people just see them. And I always suspect that. The two Dina's world are have all been traumatized as these extraordinary solutions. Come from people who have been have have grown up on the circumstances. Extremely stressful where defined their Ogle way. That's not the way of the people around him as the people growing up in perfectly safe and predictable Simonis probably could save predictable brains way. Oh, I'm not in my head right now going in percents. Yeah. And as is a very complex there'd be a review of Isaac Newton. For example, we in this a total trauma story. This kid is abusive any kidney America, ever get to see. And then he comes out of it. And he becomes his mathematical genius. He was pretty crazy for the rest of his life. Also, we advance. But boy he had exceptional tells me came out of trauma best. This is. One of the things that I I think, and I I have a preamble about is that I'm not sure we're ready to talk about the dark side of becoming ones best. And like we aspirational hold up. The thought that becoming your best is is noble in is a worth while laws into embrace the inner craziness to embrace the inner to us. Maybe you're mapping the traumatic experience. We've had there's a dark side. There's a real dark, and I'm not sure we're ready to look at it as a nation or as a nation. And I'm not sure that we're also on the other side is I want to ask you this question. Is there a dark side for you being recognized as the guy or one of three or five people in the world around PTSD like it has there been a cost to you. The doesn't both external an external costs. The endurable cost is. When you get Memphis idealization that you actually become an impossible person in a. A becoming titled on attract people would pay more attention to you than anybody else. Vont you. So I need to have my regular setbacks Oliveto basis to. To keep me on the aero and they comes on doors to worry about it. Because you're married in your life will help. But. You really start believing. There's viscous believing that you're above it, all and and your laws are different. So those think. And the other thing is that other people don't make real connection issue because you get Putin pedestal. And and I've learned in a variety of ways of being put on the pistol is a terrible secret person because much often penalty don't exist anymore. And so the holy though of idealization is very very hard thing to live with and in. 'cause no one's losing couple therapy, visit couple's therapist who was also a well known as feel. He talked about education as junk food, you know, feel sort of good, but it's not real now. You're just projection for people can't so good. It's so good. I mean, the Bethel I love how your brain works in love the honesty. You have arrived yet. It's here. I'm doing adulation. The thing you said it's dangerous. But I want to say also what I love is the humility you have an occurred. You have to say, hey, listen, there's a loneliness to this. And I felt it. I see people feel it. And it's it can be scary. And I love it like I'll come home like high on my horse. Sometimes I'm like come on with my wife here. But you it she'll go I don't know what people have been saying to you. But you better get real quickly. Okay. Just last night by says, so you finally emptying the dishwasher in three weeks. Okay. Do you think you are like argued one of the brightest people in rooms? And I I don't know how you answer that honestly. But like, you the way you work is is amazing. So do you find that happens for you? Gently note when they sit Samak patients, I find my patients incredibly bright interesting. So many of them are just the these unusual salt buses the game by honestly, also. My wife is also has unusual salt. So. So. I know what you're talking about it. Sometimes you think that the bureaucrats deals? They just don't get it. A Costa living in a very narrow much narrower reality in this, of course. But I try not to go into action that you're talking. Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's a that's a cell phone the snake detail. I mean, that's Trump for sure. For sure in the school by punching ya saw Mike have clicker. What what what are you most hungry for? In the thing. I think. So many layers in which I can answer. It's let's. Let's. What comes to mind consciousness to people live consciously to people see things for what they are. People stop telling me lies to themselves into a her. People can be say to each other know, he'll you you. You don't see it's. Much more on this relationship between people here. Okay. We've never met. We I'm telling you. We have to meet at some point. Let's say like that that is. And so what I've come to understand is that is that. So the natural state of our mind is very sloppy. Our brain is trying to figure out how to survive the linking between the two requires some conditioning and the courage to be in the present moment to embrace the unpredictable unfolding unknown and to live in that space and not be burdened buying Zaidi. But to stay curious and honest about the difficult nature of what might unfold requires an incredible commitment to explore and when we do that life becomes as mazing adventure. And none of us can do it alone. So the intimacy required to to to bond and connect to explore potential that we have within us is like. Requires full conscious full awakeness in it's hard and people when I say are they look at me like, well, I don't wanna do hard. I wanna have fun. And it's like, well, I don't know. I mean, there's a deep join in. For you in Meath fund is being curious. And that may not be true for everybody. I'm an explorer nature elected. Tell people know him Dutchman is production. They come down to fees and bills little van tackle votes in admit out in the ocean half croaked at sea. An if you had up there found new colonies discovered the stadium stuff like that. The character issue there like IGA through backyards curiosity and feeling is okay to feel stupid. Is it okay? To. To say, I don't know. It's awesome. What did your parents give you if they each like, let's let's butcher like the insurance? Like what what did they drop inside? You. What did they install as a belief system? Like how how they hell does he enters question? How I was very much in intrigued upset as a kid with a goal to diction. But by Peres did what they said and my father was German camp. And he came back and had to dictum in the family of obedience without talking back. I must have been fears often situated, but that that's the Nazis put you in a cab because you're rebelled against him. And then here you being like Nazi own family. And and you know, I think it's the culture diction that kids pick up grams the becomes the fuel of energy much time. And so that that I picked up also picked up the everybody played music and everybody met books, and everybody's always studying nobody ever said, anybody shoot study. Because that's what you did. Nobody ever say you should do immediately. Because every did do music was no and beauity about it here. Just. You got evaders your talents after seventy given off the culture in which I grew up as I left Hollins to go to Hawaii age eighteen unsorted, supposedly new life. But as I grew up at became executive parents take me for a became a professor heavy. It's always a question does life teachers any news? I I grew up like like being upset, you know, an a bit lonely that my dad traveled so much and now look at my life. I'm ripping all over the globe doing. And so it's like. Okay. I see. What's happened here? You know? So JI was okay is. Yeah. But mostly interested is that we live in different worlds by parents listening to completely different worlds. I live. I'm already impressed to make kids if different world than I do. And I guess I just need to have kids now, and I can see how their kids go to complete living or it is different is their phrase the cuts to or the guide your life. Do you have a philosophy or phrase or a set of guiding principles? But comes to mind is the United talked about it before both started the is a along us allowing yourself to know what you know in feel what you feel. I think that internal sense of a self awareness. Honesty is really the foundation of having a life and also having a direction your life you eating. No. Your internal language of your body. And what's happening on is out of you. Because if you ignore that, you lose your sense of direction usually has practice. Are you more introverted or extroverted? I wouldn't I would put myself on the extreme both. I really love hanging out with people talk with people. But I also think Jay working to value deep internal experiences. I think I know this answer risk taking a rule following. Oh. Yeah. But. Again, both no is risk taking your life without risk complete boring. But, you know, need to over the rules are because if you take risks and not knowing Wilson, you lose every separate way. And so I think much of life is learning what the rules are in. Russia had learned many rules that I learnt long to a much earlier. We would have been more productive. Yeah. Okay. But figuring out rules highest complex task especially the internal rules that people make up ago. If you're a fall on one side of the spectrum anxious of depressed, would you which side? Would you follow him? Probably more anxious in the past when and then optimism pessimism. Oh, I think a very optimistic person. Yeah. For sure I I don't know if you're you're mapping. I'm going through the big five. Right. You know, just kind of thinking about the big five traits for you into to organize. Yeah. And how do you answer? This like at pressure comes from. Fisher come from. London to solve puzzles really figuring how things work out to make things happen. Yeah. I love Goldberg I love complex challenges. So for you. Most mostly pressure comes from an internal drive to think or think quickly or to solve something. It's more into you know, money center running research program stuff. Exactly quickly to be external style. Okay. How about this? It all it all comes down to. Oh. Puppy must be presented to Hobart love it yet. But. Synchronicity loves but human life is about him. God. Okay. That's it. I'm done like this. Likes. So seriously, we're working people find you. So my website best defender coke dot net. Is probably the best way of getting all, okay? Brian in that's B S as L V A N D E R K O L K yet. That's great. I encourage people to pick up your book yet foreshore in. Then how do you think about the concept of mastery? How do you articulated or what words would you give to that concept? I do seek support to reedy. Know your stuff to meaty it affection dumps in being able to say, I know this. I have studied this. I've looked at all angles of something you can trust me when I say something about that. That's a comes from very well. A feigned a very. Live position. That's massey. As really exploring all the angles mission. You just brought a sorry. But you just brought up the concept of trust is it about trust of self trust of others. I what orientational I think you start off with being able to trust other people in this. Why does early years sewing breaking deaf people there who he can trust who are predictable who are safe? And and so I think that's lease on the contained in the workplace. Can I trust the people who famous salary trusted by colleagues where do research are flow? The issue of trust is very bridge. But I think it's maybe hard to trust people. If you can trust yourself also. So. I'm in the business of helping people like go further towards or come closer to their potential in the concept of trust like is ground zero. In the way, I've been thinking about I love you to push back. If you think I'm here is eight zero to two is where we start to really work trust in its pre-verbal. And so it's beyond communicate of domains. And so oftentimes just acted out. We don't really have a way to even articulate why we trust somebody. And so we'll back into some behaviors. But it really is born out of this framework we have from early on. And when I meet adults I start I I don't I don't want to try to undo or add to I take them this figure out better. How can they trust themselves? And then once they trust themselves better than they don't have to rely so much on trusting others, but they do need to trust others to go the distance. Does that seem counterintuitive? I agree with both of what you're saying. But I believe Suard life having people you can trust is therapy. Britain's. And and you know, a lot of things we do is a von psychodrama workshops in which researchers Vico figured people's early lives suicide second dramatic techniques. And do a big thing is to instill that early sense of trust attractively with people holding people and say if I'd been there for you at the time, I would have done this you enter have very deep somatic sensory experience of if I'd been fears old, and I would have had this degree of protection. I would have felt my life would have been different was Fini gums into you of what that feels like then you can start organizing your life says lowest you ever the defeating of Khitish nece and fear is very hard to create a surface ships that in need to continue to trusting in. In prince. Sally, where do you where do you draw people for AMD are training? Oh, people go to end the are just gone on netting. Type in n via the EM DR. A national sufficient, and you're not they're not connected on a particular group that, you know, not sourcing do they love faxing it, but the vessel you are deep and rich in the tone in the texture of the way that you are ticky late thoughts. I really appreciate. So thank you again for this time. Thank you for having me the connectors. Okay. That in with that. Thank you, everyone for stink connected with us during this conversation. I hope that there are very applied ways that this conversation is led you to a deeper inside or at least in appreciation for the value of connecting deeply with yourself with others. So just gotta love this. I love I love the fact that we're able to have honest real conversations with some of the most genius people that see the world just a bit differently. And that's us that is who we are. And if you want more of these conversations head or defining mastery dot net in there's lots of. Of them people that are world class thinkers endures that see the world just a bit differently. And if you want to be part of our community, we encourage it do that finding mastery dot net Ford slash tribe in. We've got thousands and thousands and thousands of people that are supporting a challenging job to become better towards mastery. You can also find me on Twitter at Michael G, E R V A. I S Lincoln is the same. And as well as Instagram is finding mastery so Instagram is that finding mastery. Okay. Wishing you the absolute best, wishing you deep connection to ones and. Yourself.

PTSD MDR MacArthur Michael javale insular cortex Thomas Trump football executive basketball Dr Vander Coke Dr Besset Ogle Dr bell Masri Pablo Meyer researcher
Sean Carroll

Dr. Drew Podcast

1:18:17 hr | 1 year ago

Sean Carroll

"Thanks for listening to the dr drew podcast on podcast one now is the chance chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion energy reliability investment our new investment product offers competitive returns no maintenance in speeds and flexible online access to your money make the reliable investment in reliable energy the dominion energy reliability investment to find find out more go online to reliability investment dot com that's reliability investment dot com get old baby for the biggest sale of the year up to sixty percent off all back to school styles for kids and baby get flipflops for two bucks graphic tees for four bucks shorts for six dollars and jeans for eight dollars right now get the best kids styles at kid sized prices just two four six eight dollars can't wait to wear it by online and pick up in store free today way up to sixty percent off all kids and baby styles now old navy and old navy dot com valid seven twenty nine eight eleven select styles 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package of six burgers were free in every box all summer long until october fifteenth go to butcher box dot com slash drew again butcher box dot com slash d. r. sorry w. or just enter promo code drew at checkout i promise you you will not be sorry go to butcher box dot com slash true now is the chance to use reliable reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion energy reliability investment our new investment product offers competitive returns no maintenance fees and and flexible online access to your money make the reliable investment in reliable energy the dominion energy reliability investment to find out more go online to reliability investment dot com that's reliability investment dot com get old baby for the biggest sale of the year we're up to sixty percent off all back to school styles for kids and baby get flipflops for two bucks graphic tees for four bucks shorts for six dollars and jeans for eight dollars right right now get the best kids styles at kid sized prices just two four six eight dollars can't wait to wear it by online and pick up in store free today up to sixty sixty percent off all kids and baby styles now at old navy and old navy dot com valid seven twenty nine hundred eleven select styles excludes in store clearance <music> and welcome to talk through podcast <hes> when the erlich roller pilot chips sports bill is support us i'm not gonna spend less time pimping you guys out today because i'm very excited about current guest sean carroll he is a research professor of physics at caltech his podcast which i'm a huge fan it's called mindscape his forthcoming book is something deeply hidden quantum world and the emergence of space time to get a little bit into that if you don't mind mind i'll explain it yeah i just finished a pod were you were sort of interviewed on this very topic essentially and i was fascinated fascinated by your many worlds position <hes> in all the different i don't i don't have in my head all the different controversies that you guys milled through but i would love if you would share some of that with my my listeners i wanna get into a lot of stuff you can follow dot com dot carol yes sean sean sean m carroll c. r. o. l. l. <hes> <hes> trainings p._h._d. in astronomy in from harvard dissertation on cosmological consequences of topa logical geometric phenomenon field theories good times yeah so i'm hoping to make this digestible for everybody i i love your podcast i founded <hes> <hes> probably about six months ago want him just been poring through it and just last week i finally caved insecurity please get dr carol and so it sean and i know you're right over the road here in caltech i i went to polytechnique right across the country yet so to my kids go there lots of friends at caltech i went to amherst college so lots of crossover in the science world but not everyone can digest a podcast like mindscape my fear even though i think everyone should and you know what i mean for me i told you it's accessible as hell but i thought i'm going to expose my audience to your stuff and see if they really wanna get into it and then they'll hit on over the years i would say that there are some episodes everyone can just easily digest every every episode i think you can get something out of if you're willing to think about it you gotta pay attention and not everyone saying you don't wanna play it at two times speed if in many times so one of the one of the things that gets very complicated very quickly as the quantum will give you a little primer and i'll try to help guide you along the way because it's a it's a huge landscape we start with newtonian physics yes so quantum physics is what happened after we had newtonian physics okay so since since the sixteen hundreds people basically thought that isaac newton had the rules figured out bright regenerator to get it down to the final desperate job with some detail right and newtonian physics success let's say you have a baseball it has a position and has velocity their forces acting on it that's all that there is a physician of loss of everything thing you would know everything you could say with the baseball going to go and in fact that clearly seems to be true like outfielders can catch baseball when they see them flying through the air quantum mechanics had to come come along in the early nineteen hundreds because this newtonian physics idea was completely incompatible with what we're observing about atoms and the particles inside atoms electrons tons and so forth right so and we certainly i started with this idea of like electronic flying around like planets around the nouveau seen these little pictures like the solar system where there's a nucleus as of the middle and electron going around and if you apply the rules of newtonian classical mechanics did that little electrons zooming to beat the band the electrons should be giving off light it that's what light is all the light in this room comes from an electron bouncing up and down right and so these electrons are zooming around and orbits they should give off light they should lose energy and they should fall into the nucleus at the center of the atom based on the math as we knew it at the time based on classical mechanics based on the best physics we had so like every table every person the earth earth would all just collapse into a black hole physics was the toll story yeah exactly so you had to come up with something different and long story short because this is a long and fascinating story and multiple colorful personalities involved along the way so yeah exactly i mean einstein gets actually a bad rep i think i signed his underrated if anything anything as a physicist he was even smarter than people give him credit for but the idea that we eventually settled on was there's this way of describing an electron or anything else in the world but when you observe the electron when you look at it you do not see what it is these things that newton had in mind like the position in the velocity that's what you see when you look you can measure the position but when the electron isn't being looked at it doesn't have a position it has a quantum state away function whatever you wanna call all it but that's something that we can use to calculate the probability that you will observe different positions but there's no such thing as what position it actually the tour had electron clouds there's a cloud out of it right and so the electron is most likely to be seen near the nucleus less and less likely further away and that's heavily whereas living until you look at it and then you see it somewhere and of course this drives people crazy 'cause like what do you mean look at it out this looking at it and by the way they tried other things like essentially directing a camera at we've observed in any way that's right you've done something to it that's right but the whole the embarrassment is the following that quantum mechanics is far and away the most successful theory ever in the history of visit predicts everything it does everything that we've ever experimentally observed is compatible with quantum mechanics and yet we understand it brain can't quite hand notes not that brinkley handle it it's that we haven't tried to understand it so that's one of the scandals that people that is that people just go don't worry worry about your exact question store now calculate now people are starting to ask questions about it they're they're always plucky band of rebels who would ask questions but it's beginning wanting to become a bit more respectable so even though in the upcoming book i pushed my favorite version of quantum mechanics with what's much more important to me is that we care about trying to understand it talk about particle versus way for second well there's a whole bunch of things can say about that version once again is the world is made of waves the world is made it fields as we say so a wave is just a field that is vibrating field the opposite of particle particle has a location there it is it's a point right field is everywhere we're like the electric field has a value at every point in space and that value might be zero but there's still an essence a thing the electric field and when you said it vibrating you you can see that that's what light is light is a vibration the electric and magnetic fields but when you look closely enough at these vibrating fields they appear to us as particles articles so this is the over and over again the the mystery of quantum mechanics is what you see is not what there is so what there is what makes the world are fields vibrating interacting acting with each other when you see when you look at them closely enough our individual particle like things and the many worlds theory so let's say we look at an electron it's the cloud before we look at it a wave function we don't know what we're going to see and so there is this always been this weird problem like you know what counts as an observation etc so many worlds says the following like forget about all this weird talk about measurement and observation just that's wrong it was just going down the wrong track to begin with the trick is that you who are a quantum mechanical system also not just the electron so just like the electron has a cloud of probability that describes what it's doing so do you so i am mike cloud of probability that describing everything that's right and but is you observing me changing me yeah absolutely and you'll so every time you look at me many worlds well because we're measure me interestingly the the precision with which something is localized in space is higher for big do things for small things the smaller something gets more fuzzed out it so you and i more or less a function of our ability and are built technologies none of this has anything to do with our abilities to function function of air minutes how reality works the function of smallness that's right and that's why it took so long for quantum mechanics to be discovered for you know if you knew what a fly a rocket to the moon you don't need quantum mechanics can you tony in physics works perfectly well so many world says the following the reason why your your mystified by measuring a quantum electron is because when you look at it it's not that now before the electron was all spread out and afterwards in a point there is a world where the electron is located here and you i saw it there but there's another world located somewhere else and you saw that other place and so on for every single place it could be seen i is it this is the part that i started playing amusing is it infinite world within the cloud here's here's how embarrassing it is we don't know no so so at least there are approaching a lot a lot of world's potential worlds and all exist let's put it this way so they all exist yet they do vessel many worlds says yeah so so so every observation of every point of that electron in that cloud is a world that that's right mates a world the world branches the single world that was was there before you looked at it branches into multiple copies that are all exactly the same except in each one of them you saw the electron is slightly different place is it only when we interact electrons it is whenever a big classical system interact with the small quantum quantum system and interacts with how come not interacting with it now will well you are but everything is so closely localized already because it's a big macroscopic thing that you don't notice so are there billions of worlds happening right now while there are because in your body eh there are a roughly speaking five thousand radioactive decays per second right so everyone of those radioactive decays splits the worlders so i'm having five thousand words as per second says no you're having to to the power five thousand and every one of those five thousand with the world into so times two times two and then as you mentioned there's another world in which is ten th to the to the five thousand <hes> well the total number we don't know if is infinite or finite but we know that it's really super duper big as you approach infinity right as you approach infinity doesn't it sort of collapse into one entity eighty between one and two numbers between one and two hundred ten open sat as opposed to brackets at how come this isn't just a an and infinite number of worlds that exist as the set zero to one because we we our era language so that i'm not a mathematician my son is and so i've tried his conversations with him so it's a it's a fascinating mathematical fact that when you studied the real number line right right numbers like point one one over the square two three et cetera there an infinite number of numbers between zero and one that's as meth about and between any two japan so there's the same number of numbers between zero and one as there are from minus infinity to infinity is just how weird mathis but math is different than physics physics is method in some senses about every possible world you can imagine physics is about the one actually universe in which we live when you were i i feel like i am not doing your many worlds justice this thus far but when you were describing in the podcast people can go to your podcast and get really careful lay out of of all the different scandals in physics that came between nineteen hundred now essentially <hes> it i started thinking to myself we just don't know what waves and fields is really are we really just don't understand that yeah that's perfectly good <hes> we don't so it's one of my big messages in the book is not only <hes> mm-hmm we don't understand quantum mechanics and should try harder but the trying harder matters for the rest of physics like we have this long standing puzzle how to fit it gravity into the quantum mechanical umbrella at all the other forces of nature and all the other pieces of matter are perfectly quantum mechanical that's how he described them at all works gravity doesn't doesn't seem to fit and i think that wave classic it is classical version general activity that's einstein's theory of gravity yeah quantum gravity we don't know what it is and i think in some sense why in the world should we expect to be able to understand quantum gravity if we don't understand quantum mechanics right which is just part it just feels listening to all the different <hes> are the com- scandals to controversies it just feels kept clarion to me it feels like epi recycles it just feels like people go oh i got it solution is and they work but they feel like epi cycles to me that's what it is like when you don't know what the final answer is right he had lots of different possibilities awesome abilities yeah none of them is perfect otherwise we would drop the other ones right yeah <hes> none of them is completely off track otherwise we wouldn't pay attention to them they work mark we stay with them yeah we were there an approximation reality we stay with them in theoretical physics we have lots of ideas in no which one is true different people will judge the relative likelihood the relative promise of different theories differently that's why they are controversial will i the way you described the conference i started thinking everyone has its own sort of psychologically gratifying in quality personality drive you to it yeah which is not the way physics she's supposed to be done not exactly how physics has to be done we're making educated guesses about what is true even though we don't know for sure so you have to say well i don't know for sure i keep an open mind but still i think the most likely likely thing is this otherwise you don't know what to do you don't know what to work on you'll know what ideas to spend time thinking about what anything more in the book that we want to go over before i moved to another topic <hes> the book so i mean the book something deeply hidden coming out september tenth is about number one we tried to explain quantum mechanics number two i try to give the sales pitch for many worlds including you you know wondering about well we're all the energy come from are there moral implications of their invocation as you energy in the universe yeah if the universe splits into a doesn't net cost twice as much energy read the book to find out now it doesn't really really doesn't care <hes> and then the third message is you know <hes> gravity how quantum gravity how the the emergence of space time might work in this picture so how many worlds picture in the many worlds picture dimensions but what are some of the other day mentioned what what is some of the other one disparaging the copenhagen whatever so the the standard interpretation of quantum mechanics the copenhagen interpretation yeah i don't even like the word interpretation because he's really different physical theories and company take interpretations just denial it's just saying don't ask me what really happens label theory though don't they had some personality is attached to it oh yeah no there were brilliant people <hes> who thought about this and <hes> they came up with it and it was perfectly respectable at the time but now we should in can do much better they're hidden variable theories so there are still people out there who think that particles do have positions over and above this cloud of probability that that we talk we just can't find it and we can't figure well we don't we it's a weird thing it's a very bizarre theory but it it's compatible with the data so far where you have both oh th- this wave function this fuzzy cloud and you have the location of the particle the wave function pushes around the particle but the particle doesn't push back so just by looking i can't wave functions we can't tell what the particles doing until we observe them we don't know where they are and that's why hidden variable theories are a little <hes> unpalatable physicists like we have this rule that connections 'cause equal and opposite reactions hidden variable theories violent but there's lots of things in quantum mechanics at violates absolutely this is where your taste comes in this is where it well what are you gonna give up on you're going to give up on something like that one nine nine zero nine cy okay good to be on and there's another one that says that you know small quantum systems systems have a random chance of just popping from being all spread out to being completely localized you know once every few million years the laws the laws of lately are sort of an interesting the unpredictably all the ball all auction in this room could suddenly has has a probability Does that probabilities just because you and I don't know exactly what the molecules are doing right now so we give a probability but if you were classical Newtonian <hes> you'll be able to in principle say exactly what the molecules are going to do. This dynamical collapse version of quantum mechanics says even in principle you don't know what's going to happen next and it happens very very rarely for individual particles but when you put a whole bunch of particles together that's why they tend to stick into one classical place in addition to lack lack of really really penetrating waves. I also am always concerned when we talk about probabilities the Hebron good because we don't understand very well. Humans don't assess very well. We don't understand really what we're talking about. Most human beings that they're only three probabilities zero one in fifty fifty percent if you say there's a seventy percent chance of something they like also. It's going to happen right right well. There was a thirty percent chance that Donald Trump was gonNA win the election. Is there something that's right and and people thought OK zero zero right so and so that psychologically that's hard to deal with but also that is a that's a function of the instrument I think our brain I think so I think it's one of these heuristic and then we it's easier for us to think certainty or unstable. You're you're using in terms of probabilities to member are in yet and I tr- biologist I see the whole thing is they're trying to probability equation but when I talked to people about it they just don't seem to they want to talk about linear. Well playing poker is a good way to educate yourself to think more accurate schools still have way magical thinking around poker and gambling due to play with them. You WanNa interview uh-huh What's Dukes Latte first name. The twins last name is Duke. She's any do you interviewed her repot. I've lived. I've interviewed a liberal who was a great interview for you. Okay Good Yeah Yeah. No I think it's very educational but even at the rigorous academic level we don't understand what probability is no we don't we have I. That's another thing I think I to me. These are the areas I wish physics and theoretic theoreticians. We're focusing on what is away. What is a field well? This is probably what really is it we have eh penetrated it yet. Part of the problem with this denial that we have about quantum mechanics is part of it comes from the fact that we don't want to mix physics and philosophy law sophy. There's just been a traditional thing in the twentieth century we haven't done. It seems like you're scratching that at all the time I do it yeah yeah. It's crazy but it wasn't always true. It basically happened spend the center of physics moved from Europe to the U._S.. In the nineteen forties and Americans just don't have patience for all these abstract philosophising rising things pragmatic yeah if you're if you're like Niels Bohr Albert Einstein Schrodinger these people were heavily steeped in philosophy and literature culture and then you know the Richard Find Mins of the world are like back. We don't need to think about that. Why why waste time philosophy was the science came from that's it I mean the go psychology was but nowadays we have science and philosophy separate disciplines with philosophies still really good at this sort of conceptual analysis where you say well? What is a field really a physicist is going to say like Oh come on? They're gonNA roll their eyes but you could sort of. I don't know I feel like it's the way Einstein was thinking about. In special relativity and general relativity you would have these models in his head of elevators and people moving that we need something like that for our brain really to get fields yeah yeah you know it's it took him to come up with that. It's a fascinating question about how the actual biology or or neuroscience of our brain helps us in hinders us in being physicists of instruments. You're using exactly but you on the one hand. We know more about physics than anything else we know way more about physics and we know about biology is the simplest easiest science but nevertheless it wieners pushed us into regimes that seem bizarre in counterintuitive to our everyday experience. May I quite understand that well the we're we're forced to invent things like relativity and quantum the mechanics and the big bang because the data we collect in our telescopes and microscopes forces it on US shows it too but the point is we never would have imagined it ahead of time right well. That's what science is. That's why the <hes> The bay coney in revolution is about evidence yet and that's this is that's what the general population doesn't get. You have to have evidence to develop your thought but you also have an idea to test right. We need to have a hypothesis and then you go out and test it and the scientific method never was a well-defined algorithm was was invent a hypothesis what is somewhat magical right. You don't know how we do that. We don't know how to do it better. <hes> people who are good at it like Einstein are amazing thing we would all love to be able to understand where those hypotheses come from in our brain. That's another to me that feels like waves interesting thing to penetrate nutrient that we just haven't penetrated yet. That's fascinated me and a lot of people don't even know what we're talking about. The scientific method which is come up with a hypothesis come up with an experiment to test it test it do some sort of statistical analysis to see what the probability that test proved did approve. I was raised on the null hypothesis. I feel like they. They're not doing that anymore. Is there a reason for Nah. I'm not sure what they're doing. I think we're better at it a little bit these days where Beijing and you know. Have you heard about that. Though I think that we messier I think the right way to do it is to admit that for any thing that you might imagine his true. There's a probability that he should assign is it fifty percent likely to be true is at point. Oh Oh a one percent likely to be true etcetera and then what you do is you go out and learn more things you collect information about the world and U Update You Change Your News for which is more compatible with today's is concerning me greatly the biological sciences are going a little weird it really where it's in I I actually I think it's it's very healthy. I think it's a we're biologists have way more data now than they used to normal and they have ways of analyzing they have ways of analyzing it and therefore for they're able to be more rigorous than they used to be but they're not trained to be more rigorous yet so happening. I think it's all good all healthy. It's all very natural okay because is a lot of funny business but we're not there yet and psychology is much worse than medicine so there's something called the replication crisis people realizing that all of these wonderful psychological findings aren't there. If you look again some of them are but many of them aren't and so we need to be a little bit more sophisticated in how we test hypotheses and and let their probabilities yeah and then <hes> you serving somebody I think that may was this last interview that <hes> did a time stamp on their hypothesis or something and then and also put their p value that they were going to be looking for in that time stamp. Was Your your podcast. I think that was mine but yeah that'd be kind of thing that you do rarely done right right. They leave to you. Stay Dry prothesis before it has that you put this is the P value I'm looking for and that's you send it to yourself in the mail or something yeah well and there's a whole mess the things going on like let's say that you do an experiment and the hypothesis is correct in other words. You don't see any interesting effect. The no one's going to publish a result right yeah. That's a publication of money well yeah money. <hes> jobs prizes for stage right okay <hes> do before we leave quantum mechanics one of them to me. One of the most bizarre findings in all of it is the electron spin thing once right yeah so here you have an electron electrons can spend exactly like the Earth Spinning topper whatever with with one huge different and that's and that's what we do with our eyes as as we know electrons been is not just a hypothetical energy giant magnets lineup all the spins and then let it go and then they measure the energy that comes off and they start start going to their random spent that's right but the thing is when you measure in electron spin you can measure it along some axis so basically the well. It's not just like that because the earth has an access an electron before you look at it and you don't signing what it is. You're measuring it along an axis okay you're pushing it through magnetic field and the electron rather than sort of being sprayed all over in different directions depending on what the spin is it only either gets deflected upward down and that means it's either spinning clockwise with respect to the magnetic field or counterclockwise determining those Detroit's determines the direction the direction the magnetic field determines which direction it goes and so that's that's weird like the earth you could imagine tilting its access. You could imagine slowing it down spending speeding it up all sorts of different things. The Electron only seems to be spinning in clockwise or counterclockwise and always by exactly the same rate okay so you say well what if I just rotated my magnetic field and measured along different axes well then the electron is is only bounced left or right with respect to that axis. It's still only either clockwise or counterclockwise and say well. What was it doing before I measured it and then the wave function yeah? It wasn't doing any of those things that's on your measurement. Outcome is clockwise or counterclockwise not what the electron was really doing and once you measure one on you know what the next one's going to be. Isn't it yeah so once you've measured it. You know the wave function gives probabilities to every possible measurement outcome if you didn't know what it was and you measured okay. It's been clockwise now. You know it's been in clockwise now. That's the way some election tell Malek some you measured and if you keep measuring over and over again along the same direction it's going to be clockwise. Clockwise clockwise is but then if you measured along a different direction have clockwise counter like most show you're gonNA love Momma said Ed but Jamie's Sigler and Paris on the New Lady Gang Network on podcast one join actress Jamie Lynn Sigler and musician Jenna Paris as they used their experience and motherhood to help you confess us your mommy sands realize you're not alone and feel like you're killing the mommy game download Mama said every week on apple podcast and at podcast one okay. I want to tell you about blue shoe dot com. They offer performance enhancement in the bedroom right. I think people understand this. They are these same medication chewable version of the active ingredient in Viagra and sales medications like that it can work faster than pills because it's chewable and again blue shoe dot com. It's is taken an empty stomach as all these medicines should be. They give you an online physician console for free. 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If you like as well then you leave with your check. It is just that easy or if you want to trade him use truecard look at the scattered around for a vehicle like the one you're interested in whether it's new or used don't forget they have used cars as well locking that price you know it's a true price includes fees and accessories. You know it's for an actual vehicle on the truecar certified dealers lot and it's a fair price because you see what other people paid for the car you like in your area then when you come in with your true cash offer you simply trade in for new rhyme so when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car check out truecar today and there's some other characteristic where even if you took another electron on a distant planet what would happen to that electronics you measure the first one so this is yeah this. This is the phenomenon of entanglement. This is weird usually again. This is what Bug Einstein Two's very good company given one electron. I don't know whether it's GonNa be clockwise or counterclockwise given two electrons on which either one of them are going to be for a random wave function but there can be certain specialty functions return tangled filled with the property that I don't know what any electron is going to be spin clockwise or counterclockwise but I know that when I measure that electron the other electron led the same spin wherever that electronic they're both clockwise or they're both counter even if I go measure that electron on Mercury and you can prepare this system I'm right here in the lab and you can send one to Alpha Centauri four light years away and then do your measurement and still right away the other one is what is that and that's what Einstein called Spooky Spooky action at a distance. Yes worried about it. It's very concerning yeah. You got a bunch world's attached to it. Yeah exactly so what I I would say is here when you measure your spin the world's splits into and the electron very very far away also splits into with different. There's two different worldwide all right like why is it random which one I then encounter well this. It's it's not that it's raining. which when you encounter it's that there are two copies of you each one of them encounters one but what determined that encounter white? Why couldn't it be also be that next encounter be a little more well? That's the entanglement. That's what that's just a feature of quantum mechanics then you know the world's are not individually individually random piece by piece they can be correlated with each other so that when something happens here it affects the whole world instant Ho Universal Universe that's the world in the broadest cents yeah and the Heisenberg principle in all this which is the measurement part or is there more that the Heisenberg principle remember. I said you know you could imagine wave function where you knew the electron was exactly as spinning clockwise but you can't have any way function where you know what the electron spin is with respect to vertical vertical axis and what it is we expect to the horizontal axis at the same time and that's likewise you could have electron which was perfectly localized position but it cannot be localized in both position and velocity. Doesn't that was the original classical heisenberg principle yeah. I'm hoping you guys are all keeping up with this. 'cause this is <hes> the foundation physics so I have my podcast mindscape and I've had already couple of episodes on quantum mechanics and two more coming up in a good way like I'm getting people excited so you guys got over there here. The details tell me about your sense of interest conscious was here and I spent the whole time talking about neuroscience. I didn't I know until I heard your podcast. How deeply involved in music she was at that it was just some some EPI phenomenon for her out? Oh my God opera singer Director I knew that yeah yeah so damn smart and was so impressive talking to we talk. We've spent a lot of time talking about the insular CORTEX and she sort of opened a nervous a new world to me <hes> but she you mentioned somebody you're awesome assessment of consciousness and I wonder if you feel better that without Yes oh my previous book. The big picture was trying to explain to people that the world make sense as a purely physical thing basically too were physical reduction as yeah exactly we we don't need it. You have to send you know physical Est.. You WanNa put it that way. Everything based on what is so in other words even consciousness consciousness does not seen some separate mental properties does not need some temperament like saying that saying that like when you draw above across the violin the music that comes is related to the bow and the density of the air when I call explained by what's so I go through things like the origin of the universe the origin of life the origin of consciousness and none of these are things as we know the answers to okay but I try to make the case at all of them are very plausibly just stuff obeying the laws of physics in more and more complicated weights. Well you say sure but most most people in the world don't agree with you obviously because his brain stuff you you were both I think last podcast talking about their between cautious cautious generated from transistors brainstorm but grainstuff is a special thing I mean if you just talk about one synapse just the infinite complexity of how how that one synapse is regulated and that there are hundreds and hundreds of trillions of trillions of this that starts to get pretty interesting well. It's very complicated. You know I <hes> talk a lot in the book about see elegance. That's all a little own world science so this little guy has little Gal because they're the female ones that we study their three hundred and two neurons. We know every naps in that organization. We still know what they do right. We still understand yeah. We know everyone. We've met the Dow we know what all the connections are. Some of wild shot at the microscopic too and that's not enough to sort of understand the function there was we can't predict based on and we can't say well if you turn off this neuron. What effect will that Tehran fires? What have you so you do some of that but you can't? You can't describe the behavior no that's that's right and so to extrapolate from three hundred to two eighty five a billion yeah. You and I have in our heads say well. We don't understand it yet. Of course we don't stand by the way we're brain centric. There's a spinal column with trillions brilliant. There's an autonomic nervous system that were just beginning to look at that is a recurring theme on my podcast talk to onomic system <hes> well. The fact that the brain is embodied in I'm thinking happens. Bringing in bodies are embedded. Yes and I think consciousness per humbly is not a single skull of at a arousal and awareness and awakeness and focused on all this stuff is once go consciousness emerges from being having been experienced by other brains could be very simple dominant phenomenon phenomenology and that needs we gotta give up the single scull idea of consciousness and bring it back to because I just started thinking thinking if <hes> we ought to do more studies on feral children and stuff when they emerge you know that there was a feral child in Paris and France emerged from the woods at thirteen after lost at age to didn't have consciousness when it showed up language is that fair had awareness had awareness I think the insular CORTEX can have a very lonely feral child. I don't know you don't know couldn't communicate but but I'm going to bet that if we start looking more carefully at that you wouldn't let's see what we think of as awareness of awareness primordial of it but that it would emerge with relating to other humans right I mean I can I can <hes> I can be skeptical because no one knows I'd. I'm on your side in the sense that not only our bodies but our social interactions are social mosaics are crucially important in determining who aren't how well the self emerges in in a social matrix right there yeah and Washington conscious also an unconscious probably a little more flimsy than it seems that feels well we tonight right we medicine thanks to it's probably we not as robust as it feel. It has something to do with the wiring diagram in the brain and the fact that it's a small world network <hes> the fact that it's not just a a little lattice but different parts of the brain can communicate with each other in different ways because we do studies and when you go to sleep or you're on drugs or you're anesthetized <hes> that networks were dissolves. Jobs in local parts can talk to each other but it's not this wide-scale coherence so there's a lot of stuff going on to make consciousness and the fact that we don't fully understand it right now. L. Is the least surprising thing in the world to me. Yeah I mean traumas caused the difficult problem with heart-to-heart problem. Are you in his camp or not but I had him on the podcast conversation conversation yeah I was GONNA listen. I didn't frustrates me. But what did you take away from that well. David is really smart and I disagree with them about most things that we care about he he is. He describes himself as a naturalist so he doesn't believe in God or the supernatural but he's not a physical list so he thinks that the physical world is not enough to describe the world. There's a separate set of mental properties that the world has and this leads him to be something called a Pan Psych est where he says even individual electrons have a little tiny bit of consciousness live cabinets this Lebanon menards something like that and so. I think you know I just can't go to me. Once you get there. You go like Oh come on. You're right right it. All feels like human in endowing things to try to help explain stuff as opposed to just taking what his but that you can actually observe. I think that's exactly right. I think that the the the the great progress made by people like Einstein was largely involved and whoever who invented the many worlds interpretation a lot of what they did was just therapeutic. It's not just physical. They said look this stuff. You don't need this stuff. We can explain this complicated stuff in terms of a much smaller set of simple stuff. Isn't science ultimately higher higher higher probability of correctness when it's more elegant it's razor. There are those who disagree with yes I think so he just comes razor. He do yeah who yeah so it. I don't want to speak for anybody else but there is this in particle physics right. We've we've long had this idea of naturalness like we don't know what exactly is going on beyond what we've looked at but we wanted to be natural in some way we don't want it to be like finely tuned and if you measure a number number and it's three we wanted to to plus one you don't want it to be a million three minus a million. It'd be something delicately. Yeah we like and just be us. Okay well that idea flimsy town was enough to make predictions for large Hadron collider the big new particle accelerator that we built and none of those predictions this come true <hes> and we haven't seen anything it's it's a real issue for particle physics right now that we haven't had a surprising a new experimental result since the nineteen seventies we've had fun. New Experimental Problem for particle is always a problem because physics makes Progress S.. When there is an experiment we can't explain Oh that's where we learn things? Are Theories are too good. We had the same theories now we had the nineteen seventies that's terrible but but a lot of it is based on avoiding certain questions well there are foundational question yeah what happened to the Big Bang what is the quantum wave function etcetera but in in terms of give me a model that explains this experimental result we can do that. Kepler yeah sounds like it still works right but then again when you have so that we're in the very strange situation where we have theories that fit all the data and none of us think that these theories are correct and none of us think that they're the final answer right. That's the easy part to agree on the hard part is will okay in. What direction do you move? You know what what is the right way and literally billions of dollars rest on how we answer these questions and in your you enjoy philosophy too I do you were upset by the preposterous universe dot Com and speaking philosophy in what particularly clear you interested in. How'd you get into it? I was always interested in it while I was I. I became interested in science when I was ten years old reading books <hes> when I was a kid I never even really heard Erta philosophy until I was an undergraduate in college and I went to Villanova where they forced you to take three semesters of philosophy like it or not <hes> and I loved it from the start and I ended up getting a philosophy minor her open <hes> but mostly actually my favorite parts were political and moral philosophy and the philosophy of science that I did as that I that I studied then was more more like you know. How do we decide to change our theories right like <hes>? What is the theory really and it had okay that's worth doing but it's not what caught my attention what I realized much later when I started getting into <hes> trying to understand the early universe and entropy in the era of time Arrow of time Arrow of Tom's difference between the past and the future so biological time sorta biology is a I would say biology arises out of it the Arrow time but look you remember the past you don't remember member the future will but you know our friend was conscious would say that the past is an attempt to predict the future is just evolved sensibility to a survive? I'm just making the point that they're different. The past and the future are different in our brain and our brain the univer okay okay. I thought they were wrong about that clear. There are photographs of events that happened in the past. Yes there are there are no photographs of events that happen in the future. No that's different but the past different but less there's eternal recurrence or some entropy increases creases you can mix cream and coffee together. You can't mix them. Yes okay right burner and so are getting turnover currence. That's true but yes that's right but so it turns out that this is ultimately wise this all happening wise they're narrow time is because the early universe fourteen billion years years ago had a very very low entropy very orderly in some sense. Why is that is a question that scientists should be addressing but don't they have largely ignored it people who pay pay attention to it or philosopher had entered loy headed low entropy? I've never seen a really seen philosophers deal with floss of science yeah yeah so there's a whole group of philosophers of physics who are really really physicists who can't get jobs in physics department high so what they're doing is just part and parcel of physics. They're just doing kind of way that rubs physicists the wrong way so I love it. I I think it's absolutely crucial and foundational and so what are they coming up with the low entropy world well again. They're philosophers. They really are so they're the way that I like to put it is. They're not the ones to go through for the right theories. They're the ones to go to tell you why your theory is not the right thing right. They're very very good at saying here. Is Your or mistake or here is your logical gap right and so the for many cosmologists working cosmologists people whose job it is to think about the universe don't know no the very basic fundamental fact that the early universe had a low entropy. That's embarrassing. It's player of the people so we don't lose it so entropy is just the disorderly the randomness business if you have a deck of cards and it's all in order that's low entropy because it's organized <hes> creamed coffee separate from each other or low entropy and then if you mix them up shuffle the cards increasing the coffee entropy goes up and it's way easier to get interview to go up than to go down. There's a law of nature that says the universe becomes messier more disorganized over time since the Big Bang since the big thing exactly and so all of it relies on imagining that we were very very orderly at the big bank anybody's role but it doesn't help answer worse really <hes> the big thing was very special orderly configuration of stuff very smooth ride is very much the same everywhere and it's absolutely important to understand these foundational conceptual questions that philosophers are good at if physicists wanted to tackle this visit you like you like moral and political philosophy. So who are you. Why like that too but you know I'm able to do philosophy physics? I'm not able to do philosophy who'd he likes curious <hes>. Who Do I like <hes> I? I actually took a class with John Rolls when I was in Grad school and I didn't like him before I took the class and he convinced me. I should like him US very smart. He's one of the smartest people I've ever met. <hes> these these days. I'm always concerned about Raleigh and stuff well. We can talk about that. <hes> I mean if if if rawls philosophy prevailed one of my AIDS patients it should have consumed the entire National G._D._p.. In order to save that person cord roles you you say you do the most vulnerable or the ones did you invest in the highest with the two zero ends of ends would have been the same but no roles roles is not a dummy he knows was that he would not have said to get all the all the countries in fact he has explicit you know paragraphs about his his rules are meant to apply to Twi- society where things are going pretty well and individuals where things are going pretty well when things are like I asked him I said like what if there's a plague or whatever you know what if you just need to make some sacrifice they make the sacrifices like don't be idiot that he does want to only allow for structural inequality when it benefits the least off that that's right so he's not happy but he wants to achieve it through taxes like he's not throwing radical about it. He's very much you know the philosophical justification underpinning the only thing eligible really economic. He's not economist. He's making sort of economic predictions and lovely but it's like. I'm not sure it's writes heart. It's not I didn't say his right. That's a whole `nother level right. <hes> David Hume is probably my favorite old school philosopher. <hes> these days people like Sharon street at N._Y._U.. Oh you who is a moral constructivist who helps understand how morality is not objectively out there in the world at something that we create for ourselves and I think that's the right way to think about about it but philosophers you know it's not I don't have the hero philosophers. None of them is perfect. Physicists have this wonderful lucky situation there in in that even if they're imperfect they can still invent a perfect theory right like theory of relativity for what it's trying to do is just perfectly right. You know it's not the whole story we can go beyond it but its exact precise. It's whatever but fluffy it's harder you know. Theories are more tied to their our individual inventors rise a little bit fuzzier. There's a lot of Ad Hominem attacks well which is why philosophers studied the history of philosophy whereas physicists totally ignore the history physics. We just need to know the final answer like auditions that he history of math they do. They know they will tell you and each theorem came about but they don't see how yeah that's too much work. The best math class I ever had was as a professor that took me through what he thought was Newton's thinking as calculus developed developed okay yeah that could be and it was so sensible. It made everything fit yeah you. Most mathematicians have no idea what Nasr thinking yeah it's just not. He may not have actually been right. Yeah I mean you know the history is independently fascinating. Newton was a terrible terrible person. He only lasted in the south sea bubble level or something yeah yeah. He lost all his money. A friend of mine is writing a book about that Newton in the south sea bubble but <hes> he became the chancellor of the mint and he took incredible incredible delight in chasing down counterfeiters and sending them to the Gallows Hill and denying them pardons and things like that and he will he played private investigator like he sculpted around pubs to get information on people who are counter friendly's time yeah and he wrote much more about a biblical exegesis than he ever wrote about physics right. You're I'm trying to use mat to prove some of his biblical stuff yeah. He had these apocalyptic predictions for the future. He did alchemy right off the vest physicist in the world in history history but he's also a crazy bed person are easy. I realize I don to read your friends but when it comes out that there's a book that he appears book he wrote called Noonan Counterfeiter which talks about Newton and the men and his chasing down of the counterfeiters I mean it was a newton helped stabilize Britain's currency and then he lost all of his own money in the associates. I think he made it back. Then lost it again or something some human after all right and his theory doesn't depend on him like his theory. I can learn in Newtonian mechanics without knowing anything about Isaac Newton. It's much harder for me to learn David. Hume's theories are John Roles as theories without studying their thought in particular right right because it's harder and philosophy to state with the theory is imperfectly person independent terms right interesting <hes> and in Smith have any appeal to you. Yeah sure I actually visited Scotland for the first time a year or two ago and <hes> <hes> visited Edinburgh and Adam Smith and David Hume hung out there yes Scottish enlightenment and I haven't actually read Adam Smith so I <hes> the reason I bring him up because he was a moral harassed he was absolutely I was. That's what that's what I thought he was yeah. That's right we think of the birth of the wealth of nations that's right. I do think that there is both hume and Smith had some pro Darwinian ideas which is really really interesting in some broad sense. Look capitalism and natural selection are both ways of finding good answers to hard problem right market by by not by some super smart brain figuring them out but by a lot of dumb brains doing a lot of dumb things and the wisdom of crowds or the wisdom of <hes> genetic drift and Maitland it millions of small failures and you know you find interesting good solutions and in both cases bad things can happen and good things can happen and it's complicated but <hes> Eh intellectual history is fascinating and some people miss is that evolution was in the vapor since the Greeks and there was <hes> lamarque in evolution was was very popular before we just have a mechanism for evolution until until Darwin Kim again even didn't know about jeans right so even he didn't well healy he had <hes> blanket blanking. Everybody's name right now the sweet pea no he didn't Mendel hitter he had muddles but he had it on his desk for like four years for found but no Mendel Melvin published published until after Darwin. I think it was a letter to everybody who is it was right like there. The whole time but Mendel is pretty ignored like he you know we give them credit afterward. I know this because because Villanova whereas an undergraduate was not a Catholic University but it was not <hes> jesuit like almost all Catholic universities Augustinians millions Oh and the only two famous Augustinians are Martin Luther who they don't like to brag about and Gregor Mendel he was an Augustinian monk so they're very proud of him. I got to write my note. <hes> my note to my wife Right now. 'cause she interrupts everything but there we go podcasting scene in August another really super interesting for you ever read his <hes> his autobiography. I've read parts of it. You know he wrote a lot about time. He would've loved about the nature of time. Has This joke oak where he says well He. He is funny because he can't resist telling the joke but then he does. I feel bad for telling jokes. That says someone asks me me. <hes> what <hes> I forget the joke. It's like someone asks me. What is time and I say <hes>? I don't know Oh but now I am sorry creating hell for people who ask such a question Oh yeah right. I'm forgetting the setup. Sorry this market he actually he was alcoholic. Golic sex addict originally and his latest book is called the Confessions Confessions is like the first big book of Alcoholics. Anonymous is all the same stuff that's in the book. It's not quite as explicitly explicitly expressed. It has a whole different goes out at quite a different path eventually but it's interesting to me. I read that was like Oh my God this guy's alcoholic straight up all these people are fascinating Lucas <music> who is a Roman poet <hes> one of the people who was anatomist right so he believed in atoms <hes> but he's it's two thousand years ago. He didn't know anything about atoms but he wrote this whole long poem Poland the creation of the universe and how the laws of physics work in sort of prefigured both Darwin and quantum mechanics and weird ways and it's just amazing yeah we we had these intuitions around they. They've got really fully crystallized because we didn't have science. We didn't have a way to sort of test these ideas and it took a long time now. <hes> now the topic <hes> <hes> one of your pods you were talking about your criticism of the dark web yes that's kind of in that zone here with us and and we should say intellectual intellectually selling drugs Sam Harris and <hes> a fan of all guys view <hes> in you miss something I thought in your analysis of the dark web that I wanted to kind of discuss with your which was you took the position that they were as a preference to just pick a topic that they talk about say Sam Harris about he'll talk about biological differences between men and women and there's a there's a a preference to either amplify or point out the differences in the dark web in I would disagree in the strongest terms. It's it's a a preference for nothing other than discussing the truth so if we want equality we have to look at these differences to figure out how to get them towards equality which is a very different thing than ah amplifying or preferring one or the other yes so two things one is an I probably did this badly myself but my topic they can podcast was not the intellectual I know I know as morality in rationality and I thought it would be helpful to focus the mind to pick an example of disagreed with vegetarians vegans on the one hand and the on the other hand. It's just so people know if they want to listen to the podcast. It's the other one so we very much disagree. I I think that what you just said <hes> we should talk about everything and get to the truth can be precautious because scientists been used to do great harm to people we all acknowledge that that's right in bad things but to deny the truth pro takes away something that can help us get better play and I I agree with that in most everyone would agree with that and yet I never ever hear people in the intellectual. Dr Sam Sam does that. I never hear people talk you know emphasizing the fact that women are really disag- discriminated against in Like Oh my God what are you doing. I went to treat with respect your going to engage with him. I never mind I've well. You don't his okay. I gotta go down so I yeah. I think maybe it's out there. I don't know I've I've I've occurs. I'm concerned whenever the truth is <music> pushed aside or look at the truth fiery center favor that very my point in the podcast was of course we want the truth of course we should be able talk about everything I want to be as pro free speech is anybody and but <hes> when we sit there and pretend to be as unbiased as we can be. It's crucially important to sit back and think. Are we really being unbiased of. How are their secretly biases sneaking in here? Oh and more whenever I hear people talk about might might example I know most about and therefore I talk most about is <hes> women in science. Yeah people say incredibly stupid weapon things Amazon Women in science because they get to a place which sounds plausible and makes them feel comfortable. It makes them feel like well. People like ignore really discriminating. There's just some fundamental difference between who we are and then they stop thinking and I have not seen any idea w lead discussions that overturn return that particular misconception would love to see it. Maybe it's out there and I just don't know about it well. I don't think the fact that it has not been priorities. <hes> attell interesting think I personally I know I've been really trying to be very careful and responsible around race for myself and I've done a lot of reading history now and I'm shocked at how Adrian I was on so much stuff. It's shock is when you really start to pay attention it shocking if you're not your lived experience you're having again. I'll criticize Sam because he's he's the one I like. The most famously had Charles Murray on his yod cast and he was initially do and he will say look. We should be talking everybody everybody in so that's fine. He won't have Ta Nehisi coates on the podcast that he's a black writer for the Atlantic he wrote the case for reparations operation or whatever because he's too ideological and to edit identity politics <hes> interesting as it may is more just maybe attack sailing in writing or something. I don't think so I think that <hes> so I disagree with the idea that in practice members of the I._D.. W are are just unbiased looking for the truth. I think that they're right. Everyone played yeah. They're human beings like the rest of I think you have the highest probability of success in Sam in Turner raising his county. That's right because the scientists and that's your job is to try to pay attention by well. You know he again he's human and he's been criticized and you <hes> he sometimes says he's a wonderful writer and sometimes they can get away from you and you can be a little bit more dramatic than you should be and like any human human being when he's criticized for that his first instinct is to double down and defend themselves right and I had that instinct to and but I do try to say I'm actually look. Here's here's here's a hot take for you. I love twitter because twitter will call you on your shit. It will call you on perfectly league. Good things you say to write. I love it because I really do know that I have biopsies and I say things and sometimes those things I think are perfectly obvious and the twitter mobs come out and say that's not really at all much less polite term okay and at least I will sit back and think well I did. I get that wrong. Is that the office that I you know and and try to resist this doubling down impulse and that's why you gotTa stop. Take a deep breath and look at yourself of yeah exactly and so that's why in the podcast emphasized the fact that this is to me what it means to be an intellectual <hes> Richard Feynman said <hes> you should always try not to fool yourself and your the easiest one to fool right and it's easy to say that easy to say we should be unbiased bubble blah blah blah so hard to do that. You have to be an eye from the biopsies. You're absolutely and I say at the end look aren't there. Couldn't there also be by Aziz that say you know I'm a member of a minority group. Isn't there a bias to sort of self righteously say I'm impressed and I'm determinated against and that's why I'm not succeeding yeah. That's a huge by it and that's one you should also look out for and but you know if I'm going to the whole group group of people who get the label of Social Justice Warriors. I don't want to call them my enemies I might disagree with them about letting a certain Nazi. Give a talk on campus like I think that even the Nazis dribble to give a talk on sheriffs but we disagree on strategy none on goal hardens Caltech. Is there much going on. There were problems problems time. I was GONNA say that's usually in stem classes even on college campuses with a lot of activity. The stem students are busy during their problem sets Baltimore out but you know most students on most campuses are busy doing their problems. That's there's I think there's been to Columbia and there's a lot of stuff going on. There's a lot of other stuff going on on both sides right on all sides <hes> Um you know Jeffrey Sachs if you follow him on twitter does a wonderful job of you know looking at the numbers for there's there's a lot of <hes> violations of free speech and Free Association and things like that but there's not an ideological tilt to them there is ways they go both ways but there is no ideological tilt to how much they are talked about talk online and often. You know the people who you know there's institutional. I guess this you know part of what I try to make. My My podcast is of course we should all say. Let's not be biased right but let's admit that one of the biggest bias sees is some sort of conservatism in the sense in the in in the classic sense of standing up for the status. Quo is how we were raised like if you think that society has been historically a racist and sexist then even if you don't believe it's true now you just leave. Well okay fifty years ago. There was sexism now. There's not right Oh come on because the people who were born fifty years ago are still alive and they grew up in a racist society. Even if you don't think he's studied history you can't escape can't escape it and so we're up not not studying history or default should be to thank you know I totally could be racist I don't want to be I try not to be if I'm conscious and cognitive about it. I'm not that maybe maybe inside me. There's something going on and I should be aware of that. In every time someone says you know that was a little bit racist thing you did or said rather than the the obvious human response which is to say what me I'm not racist. I I would never do that all some of my best friend I think we need to come up with a little different language that like a soft version version of white supremacy like white perspective ism or something because you have your own perspective wisdom and that history that came with you and Timo. I like it social pistol. -nology is the Phillips notable. Only you and I'll adopted know it exists. Go ahead it already just the idea that when you try to learn things and not <unk> epistemology the study of knowledge we learn no things and social epistemology is just a recognition of the fact that we do that as we said you know. Brains and consciousnesses are embodied in located in the world so is our search for knowledge you know come from a perspective we and the way that I put it in the podcast was there's actually said this. I forgot to link it but <hes> I mentioned this in my very first podcast my sort of teaser a year ago for the podcast the fact that there's an infinite number of facts around us and we choose to focus on some things anymore other things okay we can't help. It's not fair. It's not even optional all right. There's an infinite number of facts you can't pay attention to all of them in a world where there but so we have a filter we look at some things we ignore nor other things and we can think we're being totally fair because in the things that we look at we're judging them totally fairly and there's a whole bunch of things like buzzing in the background. Ah We've chosen not to notice and I think that that's just as given that I am a straight white heterosexual guy yeah. I need to make an extra effort yes to see outside particularly personally. I believe that effort includes reading your history. Oh absolutely a few viewpoints do it these days American and if you don't read it then at least listen to podcasts plenty right you really need to think about what what certain groups have experienced and really what went on here I I was reading <hes>. I'M GONNA have this up in Makati I. I knew I'd be able to again. I don't have that and I appreciate you being here on the local. Well have you back. Trust me. I live in Pasadena so close. It's up and you go to work as it. You know what you're the quickly mentioned as I said in the podcast speaking of history I was reading the biography or biographical notes of Vera Rubin who was a famous astronomer and she applied to graduate school in astronomy various places and in Princeton for example rejected outright because they just didn't accept women you brought this up on the part yeah exactly so and you know until I thought about that really Princeton except graduate students in physics who are women in the nineteen sixties. They didn't accept undergraduate with the I I was the first co Ed class Amherst College and in nineteen eighty yes our backyard. We pretend it's a thousand years ago never happened. I'm agreeing with you the history and my light Jennifer who is a writer by trade and learn science later whereas I'm scientists and learn writing later <hes> she's always on me about turning things into stories telling the human part of it because I actually ironically enough scientific studies have shown that if you want to convince somebody something all the facts one yeah narratives narratives it is available source alley friendly. You know we're we're we're busy. Oh and try to affect behavior and I I know the Information Asian goes you can teach all information you want does not affect behavior very much at all which I find bizarre but <hes> assume say the grant biography opened my eyes so much of the Post Post civil war period that we have erased <hes> African Americans have been reminding us about it but the Americans the history they tried to raise it and I've Vinh studying that kind of deeply lately just I am just mortified that is in part of my hasn't been part of my consciousness my whole life yeah yeah yeah sure horrify. I lived in Chicago for seven years and I love the city and it's obviously one of the most segregated cities the United States and you can literally see how it's segregated by where the freeways are and and it didn't just happen organically right. This was a policy to make this happen and certain neighborhoods. Just don't get the resources you know his passing similar problem Oh yeah you know but but but I did a lot of work with every Marc commuter serving medical needs up there and <hes> <hes> and I had a lot of patients in the nineties knows actually eighties <hes> who were here at the turn of the century the twentieth century and they said Look Hey in passing there were just two types of people there are the rich people and the people that work the rich people and that was it that's all lived in Pasadena the time and all the geography and all the the development since is all a reflection of that original settlement where when I went to college at Villanova there was either mansions or these little tiny streets tiny houses like what were those servants again yeah yeah if you think our economic stuff is bad now look at history and look at how we've gotten out of it so we've improved it. I know that you know Princeton owns Albert Einstein's house elsewhere used to live within souverain study does so I asked my move to Caltech said where's Richard Vitamins House and I was told like Richard moved in the nineteen fifties. You don't think they let Jews live in Pasadena Eighteen and nineteen fifties did you did but they were not allowed onto the clubs or anything else and they'd be in the outskirts and then keep your mouth shut and that kind of stuff yeah. It's not long ago yeah. I know yeah all right so we we gotta rap but again. What would you got coming in podcast? I'm not supposed to tell you that was so good for more on I have yes so loyd had a relatable quantum mechanics. That's people have one on the history of quantum mechanics and I have one that would be very relatable easy to understand fun history right and I've won Solo episode me just spouting doubting off my ideas about quantum gravity quantum gravity gravity from any world stuff. Yeah that's right blues thing because as soon as you say infinity I just think one. That's okay. You know what I mean. I also have I'll just I'll just tell you I have interview Seth Macfarlane coming up about science fiction the Orville Talk to you. I went to him but you know He. He's an old friend. He's the greatest guy do you find superfund in average J._d.. There at the table while he was nobody Ed mentioned it but you say South Bend in recent years not in recent years but he's been in here since I've been here yeah we talk about you know we didn't talk about like family guard anything that was all about the Orrville and which I think is a fantastic show and about how he uses science fiction to explore were very contemporary idea. He's a super bright guy and he deserves all the success he's got so this is just a plain out and I have very esoteric science ones. I have one on Pan. PSYCH ISM coming out there but I also have one on politics and issues during the part no they don't care they don't like it but they can't stop me. I it's it's weird to me that that schools are not specifically invested in in. It's it hurts your career. If you do things like this right books that's that's insanity and everyone on the intellectual side but also from the school side I spend with their mission should be to push information to the world to educate the world and they go the other other way. It's like you've got to pay to come here to get the information. Interviewers wire here I mean county of all places like Caltech of all the institutions of higher education in southern California has the highest reputation reputation it has out size leverage to reach out to the public and they could difference doesn't try it was not into the city of passing barely knows it's there that I find it astonishing that we should be. There's there's a significant medical center right down the street no relation with Caltech the that should be going on all the time time. It's just insanity yeah well. You know I'm not the boss of the world so I can't fix all these things but there's a self perpetuating thing where you if you are interested in these things I'll maybe it's changing a little bit but if you're interested in not only doing science research but also doing outreach talking to the general public thing so the responsibility necessary necessary. It's not everyone's responsibility is really bad at it feels responsibility at the scene them in these be called itunes you where they put up lectures and somehow you used to just devour that and they started going on. There's a liability here and they'd be bub-bubba whenever you you have a series don't you in <hes> on the great courses I had a couple of courses in the great courses three of them one dark matter one on the Higgs Bozon and one on the Arrow of time going up time I guess the time fascinating well that was my first book which was from eternity to here on the Arrow of time yeah Gimme Gimme a sketch. What am I gonNA learn what is entropy? Why does it increase ace? What does that mean about the future of the universe time about entropy the fact that the past is different from the future is all about entropy and the fact that time has an Arrow at the time because the time is eight dimension a dimension so just like space is it dimension time didn't need to have an aero space doesn't have an Arrow right but if you're here in this room space does have a narrow jumping up and down but you don't think that's a fundamental part of the laws of physics you know it's because the earth is right beneath you yeah so the the major realization is the fact that time has a direction isn't part of the fundamental laws of physics? It's because the Big Bang is before you Kinda give that some thought this friend thank you so much for being here. Appreciate Zhang all this time with this Sean Carroll transcribe mindscape go to it now download it also the book something deeply Hidden Quantum and emergence of space time and talk to connects for times and topics follow the show on twitter at Dr Drew podcast that's D._r.. D._R. W PODCAST for music through today's episode can be found on the swing and sounds of the Docu podcast now available on itunes and while you're there don't forget to rate the show to Dr Drew Podcast is a Corolla Digital uh-huh production. Hen is produced by Chris Locks on and Gary Smith for more information go to Dr Drew Dot Com all conversation and information exchange during the participation in the doctor who podcast is intended attended for educational and entertainment purposes only do not confuse this with treatment or medical advice or direction nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede relationship and direction of your medical hair tasers. 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News minute the Federal Reserve cut its key interest rate for the first time in a decade that chair Jerome Powell says changes in the economy were noted but manufacturing output has talkline for two consecutive quarters and business fixed investment fell in the second quarter foreign growth has disappointed that <hes> Powell was unable to say how many times is the central bank might cut rates though he said it would only be it would not be a long series of rate cuts. The only black member of president trump's cabinet housing Secretary Ben Carson is comparing Baltimore to a cancer patient whose illness can have a devastating effect if ignored like if you have a patient who has cancer and you can dress them up and put a nice suit on it and you can try to ignore it but that cancer is going to have a devastating effect Carson wasn't Baltimore all those tweets by President Trump describing ascribing Baltimore as

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#374: Laura Rhodes-Levin

Dr. Drew Podcast

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

#374: Laura Rhodes-Levin

"Thanks for listening to the Dr drew podcast on podcast one. Hi, it's Jamie, progressive's number one number two employee. Leave a message at the hey, Jamie. It's me, Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your Capella group mad harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean, you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name your price tool. It should be you giving me the pep talk. Now get out there, hit that high note, and take mad harmony all the way to nationals this year. Sorry pitchy. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Pricing coverage match limited by state law. Of course, women should desire sex as much as men and have that opportunity. It's not weirder abnormal. 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Go to four hers dot com slash DRA w more time f o r h e r s dot com slash drew for hers dot com slash dairy w restrictions apply. See website for full details. And welcome podcast. Thank y'all sporting people support the pod be sure to click through we ask you to because gotta keep the winds in the sale the cruel of higher. Chip. Don't forget checking out the stuff going on Dr dot com right now. We've got the whole series on transgender. We're doing a little we're doing a little podcast series of famous transgender vigil. You have to go over there. And check it out. See what that's all about. And we of course, had the opium series where the entire history of opium is reviewed throughout human history, including how we got into our last opium epidemic in. But we did about him what we did wrong. And how we got into this mess. We're in presently course, you live is there hashtag and this life and weekly infusions. Whereas some of the opium series interviews can be found in also drafted are. Today. Like to welcome Laura rose Levin. She is the founder of the missing piece interferring Zion, which we're gonna talk about neural feedback today and missing pieces not like a piece of pie. It's like peace. Peace sign. Yeah. Peace of mind PAC. You can check out the website missing in my SIM g peace like like peace sign like, no war foreing Zion. It's the number four. Not deaf are and you can also follow doctor Levin Levin. Say Lavigne at at Rhodes Levin. Arose is our H O D E S and neuro vile feedbacks what I want to talk about today and all of its various application. So thank you for coming in. My how'd you get into using this madelli? You know, I was teaching meditation at treatment centers drug, alcohol, abuse centers, and one of them said we like you. We really want you to learn neuro feedback. And I said, okay, sure. And I really could not believe what a game changer. It was it's it's really what was the first step leading to my center. I went out on my own doing neuro feedback for people and. It's works. Well, I call it the men in black because it's been around for about sixty years sixty jeez. Yeah. But big pharma not a fan. They want people on meds. But NASA uses it, we'll tell you. No. No. No, no. Because I was around when we were using it for all kinds of things it's insurance companies that are not a fan we used to use in chronic pain centers eastern, addiction, and they will not reimburse for it. They will. Now, what what they wanted was you to prescribe pain medicine because then easier and cheaper news really the insurance industry that that force this thing. Well, they force the democ of opioids. But then they did it by marginalizing refusing to acknowledge the multidisciplinary approaches to things like painted addiction. Yeah, I believe that to be true. It's. It's really really unique and special. But it's so scientific the. Armed forces Camp Pendleton over here started about five or six years ago with twenty soldiers for PTSD, and then just exploded with it. They're bringing the exact kind of machine us actually exact program over to Afghantistan over to Iraq. Just just helping all the soldiers because when you get to PTSD quickly much better chance of of taming it fixed. Yeah. And a lot of sports teams use it because when you're in your head, you're not gonna make that shot. But when you're nice and mellow you're in the zone, boom. Way of visualizing. What's going on in our brain with that be accurate? Yeah. I didn't answer your question. Did I? Neural feedback is the brain looking at itself in the mirror and fixing itself. And why can't we do that? Without looking at these objective images because the brain this master organ that fixes everything in our body right now, if you have a cut on your leg, it's sending signals through nervous system up through your spinal cord to the brain the brain sending the signals back down. Our brains heal us through our nervous system. But the brain itself does not have nerve endings. I'm sure you know, that when you do brain surgery the person's awake, and you're poking around going, can you move your arm if I push here so about sixty years ago neuroscientist thought these two neuroscientist that if the brain could see itself would itself repair and the answer is yes, different ways to get it to see itself. Right. We can't be objective about any of our subjective. States of Externalizing are subjective states, right? It's looking at sort of clues of what's going on in our brain. I and I remember I worked with chronic pain patients for while with neuro biofeedback techniques, and you could show the patient where they were reducing to regions of activity in their brain, the insular cortex things like that. But that wasn't very very effective just showing them the mirror. What got more effective was when? You created metaphors like we had a fireplace. And they'd make the fire. Go up in the fire go down because the patients it's such a non conscious non cognitive thing to sort of try to calm, those parts of the brain amplify, those parts of brains. We don't know how to do it. Well, and what you're talking about is a slightly different modality than the one. I like to use because what you're talking about involves a conscious process. If you make the flame go hotter because you slow down your heart rate. The the system that I use is completely non-participatory with the person who's watching it. It's it's therapy ever. They literally just sit back. So to explain a little further if you'd like me to we put electrodes on your head the electrodes pick up the electrical activity from your brain and go into the computer now these electrodes don't sending electrically into. Your body. Just like an EKG the stickers on the chest. The pen goes up and down. There's no electric-shock happening there. It's reading electrical activity, so what I work with a lot is the central nervous system. The amid Alah the limbic system that emotion center of your brain. So we're going to be reflecting back. The emotion center part of your brain. I we we work with a physical relaxation for. But that those when I started doing this years ago, you would actually sit and watch fractional images of your brain. All you had to do was keep your eyes open and keep your ears open. And it did the work for you. Very cool, but more like Spira graph meets Pink Floyd. It's a pretty boring after five minutes. And now they've done it to that you can plug in a movie you pick your favorite movie. Maybe it's bridesmaids. Maybe it's despicable me. Because I work with kids. They watch the movie now the movie looks pretty much the same. So your mind is engaged in. You're not gonna fall asleep. But it slightly fades a little and shrinks and does some weird movement, and that's your brain recognizing itself in live time, and it starts to self repair. So it seeing signals that are not specifically cognitive, correct? So in the cases of trauma, PTSD what I tell people about anxiety and PTSD is it's not what's wrong with you. It's what's right with you. If you were a little kid in your playing in the meadow with your fr. Friends, and you hear a Russell in the Bush, and you see a fuzzy face and each your friend, and you just met a lion. You're supposed to remember that. But not consciously it goes into your limbic system and every single time you encounter something. That's more frightening. It goes into that limbic system, and it stays there. So by the time someone gets to me their Olympic system is pretty overwhelmed. So when they sit down in the chair and the brain looks at itself, and it sees itself responding to fifteen twenty lions, and it goes my God, there's lions the thin looks around the room and says, but I'm sitting in a chair, and I'm relaxed, and well that's out of control, and it starts to calm this brain activity down. Why does the screen changing in size or whatever do anything will? That isn't. That's just what it looks. Like what it really is is the fractional imagery coming through encoded in the movie, it's the. Actual brain activity that the brain is able to detect. Tells more about that is the brain activity front door to defacto activity. So as I said before we used to just look at the electrical activity of your brain with fracture images that represented it. That's all I we would we would turn it into other images, and people would imagine the elves digging out the pain and all kinds of other images that would sort of be represented opinion, the pay with the patient to do 'cause you couldn't think to themselves make the pain less or make buying Zayed less. They had to enlist something that was ineffable and oddly based and then that's still patient dependent. You know, they've updated systems now. So that they don't have to be participatory. They literally can just sit back and be amused. I like to explain it to people like imagine, your brain had x Ray vision, and you were showing it its own activity much, like a hand underneath a puppet you. You don't wanna watch a hand do this. It's boring. But if you put a cute puppet on it. Now, you've got my interest. But the brain is able to see the hand movement underneath or in this case, the actual brain movement. And that's what that fading in shrinking is what was actually going on there. It's actually representing. You're actually seeing the electrical activity that were picking up from the electrodes. What is a fractional? What what are these? Is there an image behind the image that we're not seeing consciously? Exactly, the brains picking up on its own electrical activity. Okay. Just look at that. Then it's boring. Okay. But so what is it coming through them? What is it that the brain is saying exactly what is it? It's not seeing the movie. No, what is it saying it sees a representation, so I would select artillery. But what is that representation? Okay. So it's seeing this regulates brainwaves it seeing a representation of that. Yes. What is the representation? I'm so sorry. I feel like I'm not getting your questions. So we could just show brainwaves. Right. But we're showing something else. They're showing a movie, but we're not just showing the moving. Right. We're doing something to the movie. So what is that something? What's your favorite movie? Just use despicable me for particular despicable. Okay. So you're watching despicable meal, and the screen starts out really small and square takes about a minute for the brain to realize it's looking at itself. And then all of a sudden the picture gets bigger. How how is it looking at itself and not just looking at a movie because there's these little fades and shrinkage and just very nuanced movement. What is that? And how does that determined who determines what that's going to be as a computer do that? What is that? So what are those messages sent through those whatever those there are no messages sent it's hot representations. Presentations gets a representation of the electrical activity. What is the representation the, but the representation is the fading? So what determines that? The brain itself. So there's many many different electrodes recording. Right. Five four to five and their recording two different activities. Some are hot summer less hot. What determines which one is gonna Termine? What happens on that screen? Okay. So in those five electrodes, you have a grounding wire, and you have it's two channels. So it used to be when you did it both brainwaves would come through one channel. Now, they've separated it to channels. So let's say we're working with the amid della ROY. So we're putting an electrode on your forehead, and we get to send to select which into the brain we're dealing with. Yeah. And what what makes us determine which reason we wanna use. So depending on what it is. You wanna do? The example, I'm giving you with emotion as you wanna make a connection between the frontal cortex and the limbic system. So you're going to work with the temporal lobe and the forehead, let me give you an example that might have pseudo case you want the you went the prefrontal cortex to start to regulate the Amiga or to communicate with the somehow. Yeah, we're just sort of. Relaxing, the tension between the two so if now I don't do this kind of work personally. But let's say someone had a foot injury and the doctor determined. There is no nerve damage. We don't know why you're not moving. There's no reason it shouldn't be. So there's a court banned across the top of your head, and there's a corresponding point to the foot. So if I were working on that I would put the electrode right there. And that actively of that brain that foot would be disguised in the movie and the brain would look at it and go, why am I not moving my foot? Why is this not happening? And what is the disguise? That's what I'm trying to figure out. I know I wish I had who makes the disguise the brain. Who makes the disguise not who responds to disguise the political comes out and it comes into skies. Who does the disguising? How is that skies? That computer a computer? Okay. Okay. What is the computer doing? So the computer is reading the brainwave. So if I were looking at my monitor, I'm glad we. If I were looking at my monitor not the screen that the patient is looking at I'm looking at a brainwave going up and down that activity, and I'm not a neuroscientist. So I can't tell you how I mean. I'm not a computer IT or or anything like that. So that brainwave itself gets in coded into the movie through an HDMI cable ochre. So now, it's coated in in terms of size of the screen. That's the encoding. Averages and size of the screen is what the computers encoding. Yeah. It changes the size it fades a little bit. So people getting an intensity of so there's some there's some visual cortisol response mechanism of looking at this sort of fading. And somehow it time it's the brain recognize it as a region a mirror of some region that it's seeing how does the visual cortex hookup to all this. Well, that's how the brain's getting the information. So remember when I said earlier the way we get information through the nerve endings. Right. So what the way we're getting the information now is through the eyes and through the years. So the sound also fluctuates at does only used to look at the fracture images. You would just hear like they pop up. You know, we're what's the what's the science behind that? How did they determine those particular changes that I couldn't tell you? It was just how do we show the brain itself? How do we get the brain to sense itself? Well, let's use the census we have access to. Okay. So vision is the sense we have access to. So let's let's give it to the is. Let's give it to the ears. Okay. And somehow somehow the brain recognizes through some sort of court parietal connection visual Freidel connection, the timing of the what's ever going on. We were talking about the foot, for instance. And that timing somehow brain recognizes that and starts responding, positively to that why would brain necessarily sign wouldn't it go the other way it because it is really more like looking in the mirror if you looked in the mirror. You would you immediately start going? Oh, you know, my hair's a mess. I've got food in my teeth. I don't remember anything spaghetti all kinds of horrible things. Looking. In the mirror and amplifies pathologies. They start picky. Well, that's what this is referring to familiar with the Rouge test. It's it's a psychological tests that they do on animals on babies self-identity test put the Orion. Yes. So they they determine at what age baby become self-aware by putting Rouge on them and putting them in front of the mirror, and they naturally. No. This is not supposed to be here. Wipe it off. That's a sensually what the brain is doing. It's looking at itself and going. Why am I acting that way? There's no reason in the room for me to be acting that way. There's no nothing going on right here that is causing this brain activity. Do do you also give any sort of verbal kinds of feedback or guidance or is it a neuro by where they do that. Yeah. And that's when it's a conscious process. That's when they're guiding you through certain stuff. Now, there is an alpha beta state, which is a an is close one that's done only with sound. And that is what we use for trauma work after we've gotten the system regulated. And in that case, I would say to the person just at the beginning think of something that would be incredibly stressful for you. That's coming up and just think about it for a minute. Imagine it in your body. Imagine how you would feel it. And then in the next minute as weird as it is just think, I'm okay that's going to happen. And I'm going to be fine. And then you. Just let the brain go because an alpha Theta state, you're in a suggestive state when you're in hypnosis, they're trying to get you into an alpha beta state, so by giving the patient that suggestion I like to tell people at sort of like when you punch something into a slow, computer. And you just see the circle going around and like twenty minutes later, the answer pops up. It's not too similar to that. So when I'm working with abused women. Let's say who've had a a real trauma in the past. I will ask them to imagine. What it feels like when they think of that person and how it feels in their body. And then in the next minute thing to themselves. I don't feel anything I'm fine. I'm not scared. I'm not frightened and what starts to happen. Interestingly enough is that usually comes through in the dream state. So if a person has been abused. They will often have dreams of their abuser where they're being dominated. They wake up with night. There's they wake up screaming. And now all of a sudden in the dream, those one person she was throwing the abuser stuff out the window of their house. She was just saying get out just get out of here, and they start to shift into the dominant position of that. Which is frightening them, and it's their sub-conscious catching up without trauma, and the author food you have to get them into that state. So now the brain forces itself into that state by the by use of the computer, so auditory thing. Yes, is you have to train somebody to do that. Or they the where the feedback works at oughta medically gets them there. The feedback automatically gets them. There is everybody prone to that. Or you have to everybody get. So if I put on those headphones, and you we hooked me up, and I heard whatever was coming back. I would get into L Thatta state automatically. And we we. Are making sure that the sense is in the room. You know, the room is dark. You have Geena an eye mask on. If there were somebody standing next to yelling and screaming, you would you would never go into the office. So we set up the circumstances. So that you can be in a man what about hearing? When people can pick different sounds, actually, I believe there's like a fire crackling one there's a stream one one of my favorites. Was you could tell when you were going into data because you'd hear this sort of train noise and new like, oh my God. I'm there and train noise from within something you already was from the headphones. So there's no movie when you're doing the alpha. That's just sounds kinda makes more sense to be in the movie in terms of unlocking locked in trauma states, right because people just get locked into this could of constantly experiencing their drama and to get in the break. That is really what it's all about. How many times they have to do this to sort of get them out of that cycles repeated Bobby backups, you know treatments? It is. You know, people say it's a minimum of of they say approximately twenty sessions. I do not get that. Honestly, I've been doing this for a really long time. And there's so many phases. You can take. The brain through of just if I'm working with someone with fibromyalgia. I'm just gonna I relax that nervous system. That's a whole other part of the brain than the emotional part of the brain. Then you can get into the trauma work, then you can move into peak left, right brain stabilization, then peak performance. So I tell people it's like going to the gym you could go and lose five pounds or you could go and get into really good shape. Crude people do this on their own. No, no. Because you have to be a clinician to use the the. Technology. However, there are I have done with patients that they for some reason legally you need to do twenty sessions with them I and you're showing them how to do it how to manage it. And then they do take the machine home. They rented they pay the the cost for it. And you teach them how to do the electrodes or a partner to do the electrodes, and you have weekly clinical sessions with them on the phone. So they're telling you well this week. I did the temporal lobe on both sides t three to four and I just was the worst headache. And okay. Well, let's turn down the frequency a little bit. And so you you're guiding them, but you never just taking this machine home. And and doing it unless you really know what you're doing. If it's your brain. CBD's? Everyone's hearing about it today. And there've been some really interesting anecdotal reports to topic. I get asked about a lot bottom line on CBD. Lots more claims than clinical evidence right now. Many people are using it. Reporting results that is encouraging but clinical science these to catch up when I find exactly what I'm talking about here CBC or can dial is an extract from him. 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So go ahead trade in or just get the cash when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car. Check out truecar today. Drew cash offer not available in all areas. And then what is it you're doing while you're watching them go through the experience? So what I do is. I work on self report with them, and I adjust accordingly certain people need different frequencies as people people's brains change, this sensitively of their brain changes. So the frequency levels are going to change once someone's feeling certain way for a while. And we know so the way I explain it to people. Imagine a dysregulates brainwave is like grass standing straight up in the air when you step on grass it goes flat. But when you move your foot, it's slowly pops back up, but if you keep walking on it over and over your going to create a new pathway, and so if I'm working with someone who say has fiber myalgia or high anxiety, and we're just relaxing that physical body after the first session. They either feel nothing which doesn't mean nothing happened. They feel tired or they feel a little high and that sensation lasts for like an hour or two and then it goes away. But with every session that they're doing it lasts longer and longer and longer and now they're just in different states. And the the awesome thing is the brain is so good at fixing itself that it fixes more than what we just wanted to. So I've had people come in grown men who need to get off. Adderall your heart can only take it for so long and. Their moods. Start getting so much better. Because your brain is functioning at a different level. It's healthier your neural transmitters are firing differently. And this guy said it's so weird. My I thought I was noticing people like smiling at me more when I opened the door. And then my daughter said to me daddy, you smile so much now and he said it was bittersweet because he felt badly that he wasn't smiling before for milder. What is your perception what their needs are? For me in the way that I'm able to treat. It is just the reduction of the central nervous system agitation relaxing that whole central nervous system. And then there's a physical component to someone was asking me. Why are you getting such good results from neuro feedback? With anything. And I say I talked to them I talked to people. So a lot of tetris. No before after that's how I became therapist. They said why aren't you buy real fair? I I wish you were my real therapist. I thought well, why am I not what if they start making this machine, then I'm in trouble? So it's a conscious process and looking at how they're thinking about things how they're. What's the common feature any common? Threads. There fiber jam. All I find mostly women. All I know is always trauma and always asleep disturbance, those the two things always see in terms of resolving it though. Tell me what you get. I I notice just when I and I'm sure the demographic lies outside this. But I usually notice women who are slightly under fed again, lacking the sleep a lot of anxiety and trauma, and now your nerve endings afraid. Them to reduce the anxiety to get into the trauma. Well, the trauma piece is something completely different. I don't always do the trauma piece with someone who has fiber mile to depends on how many sessions I'm gonna get him for. And that's why say you don't wanna just go get rid of the one thing you want and then walk away you can but there's usually layers and other. Better without treating the trauma. Yeah. Well, I guess it'd be the sleep for some cases, I have had people say that they're five amount has gone away. And I don't see them, you know, after that. I I don't know some people do come in for tune-ups, but sleeps another thing. That's I call it a side effect. But it's not really I had a guy that came in. He had rheumatoid arthritis. I said I can't do anything with that. But I can help maybe reduce the pain. And he said, this is crazy. I have lived in my house thirty years. I have had a drawer full of sleeping pills for thirty years. I dumped it out and I ran into him two years later at Chinky. I don't know. And I said, I still sleeping. I'm always curious. He said like a baby cruiser. Yeah. Pain in with when pain perception, what part of the brand new typically working with well with pain perception, it it really depends on the kind of pain. But usually I'm going to start off working with both sides of the brain the left and right hemispheres because there's a circuit that's going on there. That's that's unpleasant for the body. If I'm treating pain, and it doesn't subside when I'm treating both hemispheres, then I know it's emotional. And then I switched the protocol to work on physical relaxation than emotional relaxation. Whether we know about emotional pain that it's insular cortex. That's going crazy. Do you think sense? You particularly at the insular or can you can you isolate that? Fr. I think we are with the electrodes. And by simply showing that one area. So so you're able to reduce some of the activity. Insulin is still the visual thing now or is this now back to the auditory thing. Same thing the visual visual. I got a little confused on the auditory when the auditory visual you're either using auditory with visual or just auditory when using auditory only for alpha beta for four trauma trauma, and is that after you've treated other stuff typically. Yeah. Yeah. You don't wanna hook someone up to that? Unless they're physically and emotionally relaxed. They will become incredibly agitated and very dysregulates. Yeah. Just by trying to go into an office day. I had someone say that they wanted to throw the computer across the room. And I was like he may have moved there too. Well, what it's really doing at least as as how was described to me as it's going through the trauma of file cabinet and putting things in safe place. If if the trauma file cabinets, not ready to be opened. And there's no real sustainability emotionally for no ego strength for it. It's going to have a strong reaction. It's going to get out. You're not invited in here yet. What do you go back to the visual? Yeah. Biofeedback then I go back to all right? Let's work on a little bit more emotional dysregulation in all do some talk therapy to. I mean, I kind of do it all together. I say I think I'm a really good they're pissed, but you you need more than flour to make cake. And so in my facility, we've got a clinical aromatherapist, we've got movement we've got art therapies CBT DBT trauma massage. Even alpha stimulation is is really good. Power picking patients, reach modality. Most people come for an intensive outpatient program, and they do the whole thing they get everything when they come into the center, they get neuro three days a week. They get alpha stem. They get the therapy. Once a week, they do groups. I don't know which was thing. That's working. You know, they'll actually let you know, they'll tell you now, I don't take people's advice right off the top because someone with high anxiety is gonna tell me I can't do group therapy. That's not for me. And what I always say. Let's let's try everything. Trust me, please. And then we can start eliminating things later and people have a sense of what relaxes them what what feels good neuro one of those ones that people just know, the neuro is helpful. They don't always respond necessarily to the aromatherapist or the art therapists and miss, but they know the neuro it's it's interesting. It's user predominant, the pathologising. These days. We'll see I'm an anxiety and depression clinic or center, so I that's really all that I deal with. But I'm imagining that you know with the the the primary symptom being exerted depression. You're still seeing plenty of character pathology and addiction and trauma and everything else. Imagined as trends of one thing or another. That's predominates. Yeah. They're abuse either emotional or physical at some point along the line. I don't even though I worked in addiction centers, and I've been sober for thirteen years myself. And I I love it. I like people to have that part under under control. Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of the time when you're on benzoate, your brain can even recognize it self if it does it's not going to do any long-term repair. And I want to work with people who are place. Where they wanna get better this. I I want help. I don't wanna drag someone throughout Ricarda. They do. Yeah. Yeah. For DBT. These days is stylish behavioral therapy, which is kind of a new therapy in the sense of it's commonplace application it's been around for a while. But it's always used now, it seems like it's used in lots of different settings Ridgely designed for borderline process, right Borland disorder. Why do you think it's having utility in many many other areas now? Well, you know, I was just at the exile. What it is almost? Sure. Absolutely. So to answer the second question, I dialects behavioral behavioral therapy and CB which is cognitive behavioral therapy. Has to do dialectical is how we talk to ourselves. That's the dialect. How are you talking to yourself? Are you catastrophes ING are using black and white thinking like things never work out for me? People. Always hate me. I've I'm terrified of such and such those are very limiting ways of thinking about the world. And you can usually find your way into that back has the Socratic questions which say is what you're telling yourself completely true. Is it ever not true? And so with borderline in particular, more CBT though, right? No, that's DT DT is over generalization catastrophes. Ing gosh to black and white thinking and one more which I won't take up air does dead air time trying to remember. But I was at the exile and depression conference in Chicago last weekend. And they said the number one call they get now is tell me about integrative medicine. I'm tired of taking the pills, and I actually am getting to head up the special interest group co-chairing the special interest group because it's all this stuff has been marginalized for so long. It's always sounded so Wu will the integrative stuff. I've had people look at neuro feedback and say, well, this, you know, I never believed in the hocus pocus stuff. But this really works. Like, this is stuff of neuroscientist doesn't get any less hocus pocus than this. But I'm really trying to reintroduce the phrase come to your senses. I always thought of that as a black, you know, someone in a black and white movie slap in somewhat around. But we're animals, and our frontal cortex is an ego maniac. It wants to fix everything by thinking our way out of it. But if your dog was stressed out, you wouldn't say well, tell me fluffy. What do you think excited you in this way, you would soon it? So essential oils. I think they are so essential. There are different smells, our oldest sense. Smell. When you what's your favorite place to go on a vacation? Each beach. Okay. When you're in Hawaii, you don't care about your taxes. And the reason why is all your senses have become engaged looks beautiful it, smells, good. It. Sounds good at feels good on your skin. So all that attention that our frontal cortex tends to take up gets muted in the background because your senses of taken journalism anxiety disorder like me from smile. Do you do not are you not able to relax definitely have a GED sort of tendency? Okay. And so that's why I've the center evolved the way it has because let's give you the short term tools like smell some, aromatherapy. Just in the moment. Just engaged two or three of your senses. Like, actively concentrate on all these modalities the point is the cumulative I wanna get back CB DVD, and CDs we didn't finish explaining what they are. Okay. And if I and then the reason why the neuro feedback is that's long-term changes. So now once your brain is regulated now that essential oil will relax you on the beach the ultimate goal of treatment. I think these days vigil emotional regulation, that's sort of that's the deficiency. That most of us have self soothing, motions, this regulation all types, and so getting back to DT and its role in all those because I think of it. I think that more is a way of controlling. Not controlling but re managing. Character logical processes, so tell me how it's different Hawaii being useful widely these days because the person that we spend the most time with his ourself, our own inner voice, and so many of us savings to ourselves that if a friend said you'd throw them out of your house, you'd be like, oh, my God, you're horrible person get out of here. But we say that stuff to our solves all the time. I have a a sign in my office that says anxiety is a liar that predicts doom so and it makes a great case for it. It will tell you all the reasons why everything's about to just go to shit and crumble before your eyes. So if you have a good lawyer who can now create a case against that. Which comes through your thoughts. It comes through how you're thinking about things, and you can debunk that myth that you're buying into now. Everything is doable. Where do you? Hugged ubt works. How you do it DT? I, you know, there's a lot of places that do DBT in group and they go through workbooks. I do have that stuff. I find that. Not that workbooks don't work. But I feel like when you talk to people in real time. And you you point out that look at the ways said that is there a different way, you could say that. Let's let's try saying that a different way different than CBT cognitive behavioral therapy will kind of behavioral therapy. Isn't so much about yourself talk. It is. But it's it's about your your thoughts. Your what you're thinking about? So leaves? Yes. So a lot of times if I go back to the lion example, you've got so much trauma. You think everything's allying? Well, maybe it's really a man in a lion outfit, and there's nothing to be afraid of. So how are you thinking about that? God I'm going to school, you know, working with college kids. The self talk. We were discussing DT because with CBT you're conceptualizing something tangible. You're you're conceptualizing an experience. If I had to really DBT is so much more about adjectives if you will to reduce it to the most of the smallest form. It's it's it's that black and white thinking of I hate flying. So let's use this. As an example. I hate flying is the DBT part. So changing the way you're going to say that the CB T is how you're picturing the flying the plane's gonna go down. I'm going to die the seats are tiny. I'm uncomfortable that more the part does that make sense. Yes. Yes. Okay. These are our people understand this good way to to these terms of thrown around a lot. I realize I've never really gotten into that in this spied casting people need to kind of understand what these things are DVD also helps with protective identify Asian is because the black and white thinking just the. Help people at just to do reality. Testing betters at part of the I think that when you're really judgmental of yourself. You're going to be judgmental of others interesting. And when you really compassionate with yourself, you tend to be more compassionate with others. So we project onto the world what we're telling ourselves. So that we can keep our story the same. Our story about ourselves. We're about the world. They're both. Yeah. Yeah. Why did we get so locked in the stories or the story that we believe? Kind of philosophical question. Well, and and this may get into some some woo stuff too. Is I believe that we are energy. We've got an energetic vibration, everything this microphone. I'm speaking into his energy, our genes, our energy, and the jeans we wear jeans in our body, if I said to you two hundred years ago that I have this blocks over here. And if I turn this knob, I get music from thirty miles away. But if I turn the knob just tiny bit this way, I get music from someplace else, and I'm telling you about radio waves. I would have been burned at the stake for talk like that. I do believe just from my own experience. You know, if if I can use a drug thing as an example when I was getting high. It was never a problem for me to find pot. It didn't matter whether I had money didn't have money everybody. I knew was high the. The energy vibration. I was travelling in facilitated that once I got sober. There was no one offering me a bud in a parking lot. Just just out of coincidence. My friends it wasn't that they were all sober. But they were in a sober mentality. They weren't in that place of self loathing. And so I think when we are speaking negatively to ourselves, and we believe our story if you will. And we say well, my dad abused me. Why do we get attracted them to someone who abuses us more because we believe that that is the real exchange in the world, we believe that's how we should be treated, and we that member conscious mind and sub-conscious totally different versus talking twelve percent. I is eight percent. So you can think I don't want to be abused. I don't wanna be beaten. But if you've already got the energy field that you really think that somehow you deserve. Serve that you will bring it in. And there's a sub-conscious piece from what I understand that you that we believe that if we can change this person, then somehow we can make the pass. Okay. Maybe just a theory. But what I keep saying over and over again is that trauma creates attraction to people in places happened to be exactly like ridge perpetrators, even though consciously. You don't realize that's all you realize. I love that guy. Got to be got to have a date with him exactly with that guy because he's super coming both lightning bolts in my head without realizing oak shit. If I feel like I'm a perfect instrument the central nervous system, and this automatic system is recreating the past somehow for some reason from biology standpoint, some people believe it's the canary in the coal mine. It's if people are traumatized creep teach the rest of us to avoid dramas and absorb all of it to some of Lucia biological. For it. I feel like it's an converse of what we're supposed to be doing is being attracted to good things. And that probably that same system gets adulterated somewhere by drama, but think about that word attraction. Now, I've never done this experiment. My in myself, but I trust it to be true. If you take a tuning fork in the key of c and you bang it all the other c tuning forks in the proximity will vibrate. But the dis won't and the Fs won't. So braiding there's a specific reason for that. In terms of how sound waves affect a four particular theory is we are energy beings nor. But why does that lightning thing happened that you were talking about it's when we pick up a frequency that vibrates with? I mean, the we don't have the language. I don't believe it's a it's it's fascinating to meet your point at your chest and your solar plexus, which we happen to have huge nets para sympathetic, nervous tissue right here. Yes. We have no idea what that's doing. We have no idea. How it works? Eighty percent of the Vegas nerve. Which is. Locked into that huge thing. Lying over chest. Big nervous plexus is a front. It's going to the brain. When I was in medical school. We were trained that the Vegas was an e for nerve that slows the heart down, and that's it and maybe move the stomach a little bit. Maybe a little bit the diaphragm, but we talk about Africa, which was eighty percent of the nerve coming out of these gigantic, nervous webs that are sitting over our abdomen and over our chest. When somebody says there they have a heartache they mean, they have a heartache that's a part of your brain in your body that sending information to your central nervous system. We have no idea how it works. But I'm totally commenced that we are sending and receiving information. I I don't get ready to use a language for. I don't think we have language to tuning forks in vibrations or as good as anything as far as I'm concerned because we just don't know, I think spirituality has become so prevalent will also I also think it's why things like telemedicine and things. Don't work because you have to have to bodies in space. Totally agree. Not a fan, it just don't work, and you can maybe give people some advice, but real therapies not advice. There is two bodies and space related connecting. Yeah. Connecting and I'm wondering if because you're good at that. And you're recovering personal. Maybe somehow that's figuring into some of the neural feedback. You're doing you know what I mean? Actually, the reason I say no is I don't do the neuro feedback myself anymore. I used to sit through. Yeah. She's fantastic too. But I know because there are people who will just come in for neuro feedback versus people who are getting more. You could send it home as you said once you train them on and stuff. Well, it's all it's you know, what kills me is. And why was pressing hard on this about the copy? So that because there was a time where pain centers did all this. And they realize the multiple modalities to do all these things we've been talking about to start to re-regulate the brain get pain under control mile control and get sleep restored and get people to regulate their affect of states, and it's clearly a non cognitive process. It's not somebody's sitting you like you're not sitting back. We're going. Let me give you some advice on how to manage your life. We didn't say one thing about that in an hour of conversation returned about how bodies relate and how brains regulate, and that's and maybe it's the time ran, but we are in a time of massive. Dysregulation we are. And if you want to say more on that go, so we think we're so modern on our hover boards and everything. But we're really primitive still and the way I give people the example is we have to create a gym we have to invent building because we're not out chasing sabertooth Tigers, climbing the steep for lavender our bodies cannot be sustained in the lifestyle that we live. We would we just turned to mush. But our brains are going through the same thing when they first put a person on a train going ten miles an hour. They got vertigo. Now, you got people going down the freeway at fifty five air quotes holding these screens this you've got that you've got so. Kinds of our brains. Do not get a rest. They are make delays our limbic systems are so correct. And we've overlaid it with this massive prefrontal cortex system that we spend decades training evolve. So we feel like that's charge. It's an ego maniacs. But right, it's back to Plato's idea of the charity. You're trying to control the horses that was his concentrated. And now that the the horse isn't a cherry was the limbic system. Our con- our frontal lobe was the cherry here. Trying to love or some people say monkey writing elephant really wanted know. Traumatic event. And I think we're finally mental health getting with what we're talking about here. But I think the public still thinks that there is some sort of advice giving and it just couldn't be again back to the computer until a medicine things if we could give advice through a screen, you give psycho education. That's be fair. Teach people about their you could use a Kaya trip through screen. You could teach people how to use medications and things, but you can't do therapy. Can't do. It's just limited because it is like you were talking about the solar plastic solar plexus. Communication is eighty. It's like mostly we. Able part is so small you just walk up to someone and you get a feeling, but we've may now all what you and I are doing right now talking his microphones. But it's a tiny little piece, and we have we don't perceive most of it. And that's what your world you have to train yourself to perceive. And yet, we can't perceive a lot of it. Maybe some of us are better than others and things where we. We perceive in ways, we don't expect. Maybe I what I opened myself to a person in a in a listening environment, tech sector, right? The things I receive are not cognitive. They may be, smells or sounds or music or based experience. We don't think about that out in the world very much. We're not. Yes. We should we need to. And I think we will leave it at that. I think we've been very interesting it's been a very important. I think little conversation because these are all modalities of people hearing about and I've just never spent the time to kind of step through it. And and I apologize about his pushing you on some stuff, but I. Getting about it. I want I just want to have it there for people to understand what it is. We're talking about and use the Wu Monica to describe some of the stuff. It's we will in the sense that it's ineffable inexplicable at ties it's not woo. It's our central systems work. I'm going to I'm going to take that away and say, yeah, it's it's you can think about it that were that is not what it is. This is trying to come to terms of healing parts of our nervous system that are non conscious cognitive nonverbal. And let me be clear. I do not think it's woo. To me. This is science science all over that way. But I'm gonna I'm going to take that out of the conversation. You can think about that. If you wish, but ultimately, we're trying to do science for a new age where we start to look at our bodily based nervous system our limit system as well as cognitive systems. Yes. The radio waves of our body will leave it. Then you're much any time. It is the missing piece center. Frings IT PAC missing piece four number four anxiety dot com at Rhodes Levin. Yes. Yes. Yes. And again. You can this is interesting to you. You can check out the website. And I'm sure they'd be happy to see. Where's where's your center? And they much see next time. Thank you. In times topics the show on Twitter at Dr drew podcast. That's DR DR w podcast music. From today's episode can be found on the swing sounds of the document podcast now available on I tunes. And while you're there don't forget to rate the show. The Dr drew podcast Corolla digital production has produced by Chris locks on and Gary Smith worn formation, Dr drew dot com. Conversation information exchange during the participation in the doctor of your podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes, only do not confuse this with treatment or medical advice or direction nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede, the relationship interruption of your medical hair, takers, other. Dr drew is a license physician with specialty board certification by the American board of internal medicine and the American mortar addiction medicine is not functioning as a physician in this environment. The same applies to any professionals who may appear on the podcast or Dr drew dot com. Five our T with caffeine from green tea leaves. It's delicious energizing incomes and three amazing flavors with zero sugar and four calories. It fits your life with its compact size import ability. It goes where you go to the campsite, the hiking trail the beach without weighing you down by our team caffeine from green tea. Leaps released your natural site from the makers of five hour energy. For more information. Visit five hour energy dot com. I'm Rita Foley with an AP news minute. The thinking at the moment is the renovation work may have led the fire at the almost nine hundred year old Notre Dame cathedral in Paris this morning. One of the companies hired to do that work says they want more than anyone to know what happened the cathedral is now a shell its roof in its icon expire gone now they're trying to make sure that what's left standing is structure. Early sound AP correspondent Angela Charlton is in Paris editing. They're looking at is the damage to all of the precious art works and relics that were held inside Notre Dom and things like organ, which is world famous and its stained glass windows, notably to see if any of the frame or any of the glass in these windows has been damaged the city's deputy mayor for tourism zone. Francoism test says the French will rebuild rose up again. We'll show that even in our sudden this weekend. Rebound donors are already giving to the campaign rebuilt the cathedral. I'm Rita Foley.

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Why Your Brain Doesn't Want You to Change

With Friends Like These

31:26 min | 8 months ago

Why Your Brain Doesn't Want You to Change

"Search Hi I'm Ana Marie Cox and welcome back to the second episode of with friends like these converts edition this season were drilling down on a subject that has long fascinated me and I know it has fascinated our audience. What makes people stop believing one thing and start believing something else? And Frankly. Is there anything? Outsiders can do about that process. Our first few episodes have been laying out the bleak bad news about getting people to change their minds. But it's also what makes converts so fascinating. Most people do not change their beliefs. They in fact will do all sorts of logical and moral gymnastics to keep from changing their beliefs. Admitting they're wrong basically and last week we talked to a social and psychological researcher about confirmation bias this week. We're going deeper into the brain itself. Jonas Kaplan is a cognitive neuroscientist at the University of Southern California's brain and creativity institute and we talked about politics identity and how our emotional reactions to evidence help determine what we believe to be true. I have heard that feelings aren't facts but Jonas says facts. Are Our feelings coming right up? Jonas Kaplan Jonas Kaplan welcome to the show. Thank you so. On our last episode we had a social psychologist named Carol Tavarez come on to talk about cognitive dissonance. And she explained that is the kind of experience or sensation. That happens when you come up against something that conflicts with your beliefs and she compared it to like her or feeling cold and Net. It's one of those things that when it happens. The brain just reacts immediately to try and fix it so I read. Read up on what you're doing and it seems to me that your research suggests similar but I saw that your research partner with even more vivid in describing it like she compared it cheap compared coming across contrary evidence to your beliefs at stumbling on bear in the woods. Well in many ways it is like that I mean I think one of the important things to is that what really does matter is how you feel when you encounter information. We like to think of ourselves as rational beings but really feeling and emotion are much a part of all of our cognition and you can't really separate them out so the first note. Is that how we feel? When we encounter information that contradicts our beliefs is really important. And when we look into the brain we've done some brain imaging famous look at what's happening in the brain when people experienced this when we come across information that contradicts what we what we hold true and we find that brain systems that support feeling and emotion are very important in fact the degree to which people activate those systems challenge can predict how much they're going to change their minds so some of those systems have to do with feelings of fear like you would encounter like you would feel new counter to bear the middle of for example but we also see activation in brain vision called the insular cortex. The insular CORTEX is really interesting because it integrates all these feelings that we got from. Our Body is particularly important for feelings of disgust. You can think of countering information that you don't like as similar in in terms of the brain to countering spoiled food or some kind of some kind of bad food that your brain wants you to get away from now. I WanNa talk a little bit about how you know this because you do do brain imaging studies which I think everyone kind of understands and sort of popular way right. This is a brain lighting up. I understand the brain doesn't actually itself light up. That would be cool. But what is it that you did of show this? You conduct an experiment in the lab right to see what would kind of get active. We use a technology called functional magnetic resonance imaging and the way works is that to personalize inside MRI machine. It's the same kind of machine that you see in a hospital if you're getting your knee check out for example and allows us to take pictures of the brain while you're thinking and when the brain is activated when when we're using the brain it changes as slugged dynamics in the brain we change how much we're using different parts of the brain from moment to moment in those changes are accompanied by changes in blood flow. Brain sends more blood parts of the brain. That are more active in the oxygenation in that blood is something we can detect the MRI machine. So we're taking pictures overtime. Lots and lots of pictures and then we're measuring those subtle changes that happened from the oxygenation. The images we can correlate them with what you're thinking at the time and so how does it work for someone inside one of those big noisy machines to come across contrary information to what they believe? Yeah it's a pretty natural situation so you're lying in this tube and it's making these incredible banging and we have a little mirror in front of a person's face so that allows you to see a computer screen and then we project things on the computer screen so in our experiments we show people statements and we start with a statement that we know you believe in and then we skiers arguments against that belief and at the end of the experiment. We ask you again. How strong belief it can measure whether you changed your mind at all so tell me more about what you did in this experiment so we do a couple of different things in this experiment. One thing is that we compare people's reactions to different kinds of challenge to their beliefs different kinds of beliefs that we have because one of the things we thought going into the experiment is that for certain things is actually not that hard to change our minds. When when it's really hard to change reminds is when it comes to something that we have investment then some that we really care about and we think it really has to do with identity. The beliefs that become part of our identity are the ones that are art to change so in our experiment. We were testing people who identified as strong political liberals and we show the two different kinds of belief statements. Half of the beliefs were political statements. Things that we knew they had an investment in in believing and the other. Half of the things were non-political statements statements about the world that they claim to believe just as strongly as a political statements but they didn't have a personal investment in them. Things like Thomas. Edison invented the LIGHTBULB. Everyone says they believe that we present arguments against it. We say that his patent was invalidated. That voice someone else was sorry at all at the Edison fans out there. But there's always sorry go ahead. People are actually willing to change their minds on that when we give me evidence but when it comes to something like abortion or taxes of people are very resistant and they have a personal stake. We wanted to compare what's happening in the brain. Would people see challenges two different kinds of beliefs? And then the second comparison that we make is across people. We look at what's happening in the people that do tend to choose their minds a lot. Some people are really flexible in their beliefs. The positive way of saying it maybe Gullible Flexible Moon. Let's let's let's flexible. Found so much better will stick with flexible and then some people were very resistant and didn't change their minds at all. They're very stiff with their beliefs. So we will compare what's different across those people so the first thing that we find we can pair the political beliefs to the nonpolitical beliefs. That there's a whole network of brain regions that comes on when people are experiencing the challenges to their political beliefs. That is there much less. When people are experiencing challenge. They're non boy Publiz and that network is a network of the brains very interesting. We don't fully understand it yet. And so it's very hard to look at brain imaging images and to try to figure out what's happening. Psychologically from what's happening in the brain we call that reverse and France and it's kind of problematic for love reasons but we know that this brain museums is important for for some cognitive tasks that has to do with identity and self reflection and that fits with the idea that something special happens when our identity is challenge when our sense of who we are when when our story of ourselves is challenge. It makes it very difficult to change them. You did say all your subjects were self identified liberals. Is there a reason that you chose to work with self identified liberals just being? We first started the experiment We thought it might be nice to have both conservatives and liberals and there's some really interesting reasons to have both we know that liberals and conservatives can have different Brain activity a lot of circumstances especially in some of the regions. Were interested in on but Finding the conservatives who were committed to their beliefs as strongly as the liberals in our immediate Los Angeles campus environment turn harder than than we anticipated. So one day we'd like to conservatives so is basically the population you had at hand. That's right so I'm fascinated by the way that there is apparently this distinction between how we believe in something that's non-political and what it's like when we believe in something that's political part of identity. I think that's I feel like that. Distinction is much clearer right. It's not really politics versus non politics it's identity versus extraneous or like. You know marginal that that right. That's right it could be. It doesn't through politics religion. It could be sports. You could be a huge Yankees Fan. And then it's difficult to change your beliefs about the Yankees. The brain is really Tasked with protecting ourselves. That's really what the brain is is a huge complex machine for protecting ourselves. And our B- Our bodies really but ourselve- isn't just our body ourselves is also our psychology and our mind. Our idea of we are psychologically. And so what happens? Is once the brain identifies one of these beliefs? As part of us it then becomes protected in the same way. The rest of the body is protected. So for instance. If you were in a society of people that believed that the earth was flat like and that was central to your identity. That would be just as hard to change as like whether or not you believed in God could be. That's right and you know you mentioned the term society there Sharing your beliefs with the society is another factor here that helps keep beliefs fixed because one of the things that believes do is they create bonds between us and other people on the sponsor very important to us ocean having shared beliefs with other people is one of the in which we become part of a community and being part of that community can be more important to us than being correct and and see if you ever have to change one of your beliefs that is shared among your community. You know at stake. I mean you may have to change. Your belief is not just a matter of changing the facts in your mind. You have to rearrange your entire social life. You are going to convince someone to change their mind about a corporate leave like one of the things you can offer is community on that side of it on the side of change absolutely. That's right and that's one of the. What's one of the potential motivations for changing one's mind is to connect with with a new community and it's it's It I think that's that's an important approach. Because that's one of the losses is is a potential security so you can if you can show people that there is a new community connect with a very important. We're GONNA take a quick break from my conversation with neuroscientists. Jonas Kaplan and pay the bills. Let's take a second to talk about. Kiko it's a science and art subscription box for kids tested by kids and it's way more fun than any game they can play. I have four nieces. Day are in New Jersey. They have been in lockdown for a very long time. It is so great to provide them with something. That isn't what they already know. They've explored their home. Pretty Darn thoroughly and there are different crates for kids of all ages. The nieces and nephews range in ages from toddler to twelve year. Old A tween. If you will so I got him actually two boxes. There's something for every kid on your list. For example there's the Koala crate for ages. Three and four. That is actually the age of my youngest niece and it delivers fun. Hands on activities to engage the natural curiosity and creativity of preschoolers and play based learning the atlas create for ages. Six to eleven sparks. Kids sense of adventure. Anticosti inspiring them to see themselves as a citizen of the world. There's no commitment you can pause or cancel anytime key. Waco is redefining play with hands on projects that build confidence creativity and critical thinking skills. There's something for every kid and kid at heart. If you WANNA play along at Kiko get your first month free on select crates at Kiwi Co dot com slash friends. That's K- I W I C DOT com slash friends. We deserve to know what we're putting our bodies and why and that's why rituals founder is on a mission to reinvent the vitamin INDUSTRY CATCH. Scheider and her team of scientists at our making clinically tested. A new normal ritual left out mystery additives synthetic fillers shady extras. That can be found in some traditional multi vitamins. I take ritual. It is part of my morning ritual. I love the minty smell of tablets. They don't actually have meant taste. But there's a wonderful smell when you open the bottle and it wakes me right up and you know I think taking your vitamins is a little more important now than ever. I like to make sure that my immune system is as boosted as it can be and for you. Obsessive label readers ritual uses Vegan non. Gmo gluten free and Allergen free ingredients and those ingredients and their sources are out there for the whole world to see because ritual believes you deserve to know what you're putting in your body and why daily changes can lead to big results so start small today. Ritual is offering my listeners. Ten percent off the first three months. Try it out. Satisfaction guaranteed go to ritual dot com slash friends to start your ritual today. That's ten percent off your first three months at ritual dot com slash friends now back to Dr Kaplan and his thoughts about how humanities recalcitrance might not be such a bad thing so I I wanna get back to sort of political non-political again. Let's say Identity affirming or things having to with your identity and things not having to with your identity. Because I read another paper there was actually about snap judgments but it seemed sort of be along the same lines. Which was that even when we make like quick apparently trivial decisions. They're really hard to undo that an and the and the longer that the decision is in place the harder it is to reverse. There's there's studies showing that view. Tell people a piece of information and then five minutes later you inform them that it was alive. It's experimental just made it up. They still have trouble getting rid of it. You can still show evidence of of the belief in place. So that's one of the reasons. I think that you know. We were interested in in Having our beliefs could form to the truth. When of the first most important things to do is to put up some kind of of defensive beginning some kind of skepticism so that we don't accept what leads to begin with because once we accept them the they're very very difficult to get rid of. I've read that one theory. Why the brain behaves that way. The self protective aspect of not changing our minds has to do with like it would be a real chore tap to Decide Things All day long but if we had to like make up our minds about everything we came across. That would be exhausting. So so is an evolutionary adaptation. Kind of to be so stubborn. Yes I think there's probably some value there and also it might be that it's a efficient for us to offload some of our belief formation to group. We generally trust the people around us. Then we don't need to rethink everything. We can just accept. What what everybody believes. There's likely to be some kind of a sweet spot there. It's probably problematic. We constantly have to change our minds. Every second and we're in our models of the world have no stability to on the other hand of our models of the will become so fixed that they chant change with evidence. We have other problems. Still we kind of want to be somewhere in the middle of the we were talking about identity versus not entity. And I'm an even how these small snap judgments get hard to undo and I do wonder if is there. A big difference in terms of the kinds of the things we believe. Does the brain treat different kinds of beliefs differently or in the sense that some things are identity and other things aren't identities that the only big distinction redid a brain imaging spearman some years ago looking at is is religiously different from non religious beliefs and so we took a group of fundamentalist Christians and we had a group of committed. Aps then we put them both inside the scanner and we had them evaluate beliefs about religion and about other things as well. We asked for each statement. They saw for them to decide whether it was true or not. And then we could look at what's happening in the brain when people are believing versus disbelieving and we didn't see any difference between believing or disbelieving religious. A statement versus a Non. The statement and there was really no difference whether you were an atheist or a Christian believing look like believing regardless of the content of the information now. There were special things happening when everyone thought about religion versus not religion a because those were Sort of emotional topics for everyone. But there wasn't really a real difference in believing and disbelieving depending on the contents of the boy. I said earlier. I think that a lot of people feel like they might understand this sort of science Because they see the pictures of the MRI and different areas. The brain like I said lighting up. Is there anything that you wish? People understood more fully about the kind of work that you do. That's a good question. I think that it's it's difficult to communicate with with people about the brain because it's so complicated and it's so complicated to us that we try to simplify. It boils down to make it understandable. But fact is that it. It isn't understandable. The brain is the most complicated object in the universe with the density of its interconnectedness and we often like to talk about the function of brain regions at have. It's easy to think of them as specialized for one auction. So for example we can equate the May delay with fear. And it's true. The mcgilla is important for fear but it isn't true that brain region has one very very specific function. We're learning more and more brain so complicated. All these brain regions interact in complicated dynamic circuits. We don't fully understand so the might be important for fear but might also see that it activates would be blur happy or when people detect some kind of other emotion motion to the environment. So it's very difficult to work backwards from what we see in the brain activity. Just what's happening? Psychologically like I just made it made it worse instead of better. I like I said I. I throw no shade on what you're doing. It's incredibly complex and important but I've I've also come across You know that analysis of where we are in terms of understanding the brain and how there's a sense that we are just scratching the surface as it were that it is this in like it is funny because my own brain cannot imagine how complex my brain is like. Where do you think we are in of understanding the brain are we? Are we at the medical equivalent of You know banging on stones and not quite or are we re far advanced. Like how far do we have to go? There are some. There are some areas of neuroscience that are very very advanced and some parts of the brain that we understand very very well so for example perceptual systems in the brain. Were trying to understand how the brain sees or hears Amar Understandings. Very sophisticated weakened. Even do things trying to decode? What people are seeing from their brain activity? That's that's a very advanced thing to be able to do. But when it comes to the higher cognitive functions things get blurrier and blurrier so once we move to a concept of self and consciousness and the things that are The most uniquely human our understanding is very very nascent. Do you think our brains are sabotaging us want us to understand Very deep question don't want themselves understand. I guess I saw in one interview that you said that you think the most important thing that people could take away from your work is the understanding of how big a role emotion plays and cognition. Why do you think that's so important? I will because it's true And I think it's it's something that we forget about as neuroscientists and often as people when we're talking about reason no Every everything the brain does is built on a basis of emotion. Emotion is one of the oldest earliest systems life has or regulating itself for keeping US alive. And very very intelligence s we we tend to to pitted against our rational thought as if it's sort of older stupider way of doing things and a rational minds just need to suppress emotion orange succeed. There's a sense in which that's true but there's also a sense in which it isn't true when we see people who have brain damage you parts of the brain that help them incorporate emotion into decision making they aren't a perfectly rational robots. They actually have quite problematic lives that they don't make very good decisions at all. Emotions are too so important for our decision making their important source of information that and we we don't want to suppress and get rid of we need to Allow that information to inform us in a way that suits our goals best. I really appreciate the ways in which throughout this discussion. You've brought up real life. You know the the way. Our interactions in how we can see the things. You're talking about In some some of our daily acceptance I do wonder. Do you ever find yourself trying to change? Someone's mind and realize. Oh fuck like I shouldn't be doing. This is not gonNA work because no changes her mind all the time. I mean it's irresistible to try right and as part of the reason that I started studying this to begin with because it just seemed like it's so difficult to do to change someone to win. Someone change their mind is so rare and yet. It seems to be so important to be able to do that minute. You think about our lives interactions with people. Our whole system of government is based on the idea that we can have discussions and We can talk to each other and the whole point of talking to each other in that context would have some influence on each other. We're completely impervious to influence. What is the point of a democracy? It's also you know the the basis of science the whole point of the scientific processes that we can gather new evidence and constantly adapting our models of the world with new evidence so it seems to be incredibly important thing for us to be able to do and yet it's so rare and so hard I wanted to ask about whether or not your research could point in the direction of techniques that would be persuasive to people and both of us. I think our service a context that that is good but I mean couldn't persuasive techniques be used for evil as well like is it dangerous to kind of discover the exact kind of buttons. You need to press to convince someone of something yeah. It's a double edged sword. I mean like any scientific power can be used for good or can be used for evil. I. I've tended in my own work to try to avoid that issue by switching the issue around Instead of trying to identify ways in which we can be more persuasive to think of ways in which we can leave ourselves more open minded because I think we all do want to be open minded. We want to be persuadable If it's appropriate to be persuaded and so I prefer to think of the problem that way. What are the things that we can do that? Put us in a position to be able to take into information. Went when we really should so all turn my previous question around on you to. What is something really big? You've changed your mind on get a I. I mean I'm human just like everyone else I can't think of a good example. I get asked this question a lot. You'd think I would have a good answer for it by now but I struggle with every time I can't think of one that's sufficiently interesting. I mean I changed my mind and could change in small ways all the time and that's pardon art of science. My views about parts of the brain work very different now than than they were when I first started saying the brand. But that's not the kind of interesting sort of identity related switch that you would want to hear although it does make me think of something which is one way to cultivate. That kind of flexibility in ourselves would be to not take things so personally would be to invest less of our identity in ideas that we may be can't know for sure which is the scientific pro trade. I totally agree with that. That's right so do to keep your beliefs about the world at an arm's distance from into treat them as provisional models of the world that you're willing to update and not become too attached to them. It's a sort of Buddhist philosophy a little bit there to maintain some detachment from from yourself and from your models of the world. I WanNa get back to something else. You said your paper which is that. There are very good reasons why people don't change their mind as much as we might talk about how wonderful it is to be flexible. There are there are reasons people to resist. And they're not bad reasons and are not bad people for resisting. We mentioned earlier that it would be a problem that our world models were so in stable. They changed all the time. It'd be hard to make plans. If if our mouths the world where cheating all the time right and then for a lot of things. The social bonds that we formed from these beliefs are rightfully important to us. Like you conversation I think with your your mother and you may decide that your relationship with your mother is just more important than what the two of you believe about particular approach to the virus. I mean that's a totally rational response to have to changing your mind on the other hand we also don't want to be we don't want to be so persuadable that We are. We are gullible that we can be persuaded by misinformation. We have to be a sufficiently skeptical of new information so that we have appropriate filter through automatically puts his position of a stance of a bias against changing our minds. So you said that. You're working on for instance. Mindfulness is that your next. Frontier is the thing that you want to get to next as far as exploring this kind of activity in the brain. Yeah we really want to know what what works to have some kind of a method that increases our belief flexibly would be great and understand how that works in the brain. So mindfulness is one thing and we know that. Mindfulness Meditation can affect some of the brain systems. We saw active when people were challenged in their political beliefs in our study. Meditating can actually reduce activity in those regions CH- We also know that you know frame. The arguments in particular ways can make them more appealing to people and we want to know what the neural correlates that framing. What isn't neural mechanisms? That allow us to be open to arguments there framed in one way or another another thing. I'm really interested in is is narratives and stories. Stories can be very influential in a lot of ways when we read something in the form of a story. It doesn't evoke our defenses in the same way doesn't bring up that self-defensive response we have an lead to a backfire Because stories are they kind of Lois into some different state of mind where we're willing to suspend her disbelief. Now Way I think of narratives is kind of like Trojan. Horses could get information in past the defenses so really interested in how that works and with the systems in the brain. This narrative are playing a role in in Bali flexability. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Oh you're welcome. Thank you thank you for having me. And that is it for the show. Next week we'll be talking about the dark side of this mind changing business. What happens when people use coercion to force or attempt to force others to change their beliefs? You can call at brainwashing or mind control or maybe even a time share presentation seminar. We'll be diving into the scientific evidence. For how and how well brainwashing works one last thing with this new season. We could really use your help and getting the word out about the show and the project. So I'm GONNA try a little mind control myself. Wouldn't you like to rate and review the show? Even if you already have you would love to rate and review this show rating and reviewing the show is something you want to do and you want to tweet about it and tell your friends tweeting and telling her friends about this show. Is the thing you want to do. Please rate and review. Tell your friends and until next week take care of yourself.

Jonas Kaplan Jonas Kaplan insular cortex Ana Marie Cox Yankees Edison Carol Tavarez researcher partner New Jersey University of Southern Califor France Edison US Kiwi Co Publiz Thomas ourselve
Throwback Thursday: Dr. Jud

Dr. Drew Podcast

56:53 min | 11 months ago

Throwback Thursday: Dr. Jud

"Thanks for listening to the Dr Drew. Podcast on podcast. One PAT everybody walk in the doctor. Who PODCAST as usual. Please keep the wind in the sails. The pirate ship and support those at sports here. We try to care for these like these guys that we appreciate it and check all the other positive dot com. I appreciate you guys going by there and People should be like after dark. Check that one out. It's my privilege to welcome Dr Jan Brewer today. The book is called the craving mind from cigarettes to smartphones. Why we get hooked and how we can break bad habits. An APP unwinding anxiety. The Again of course. The book is available Amazon. Unusual places in the eating APP is called. Eat Right now. He right now. Also at APP store and Google play and a new study found it to be the unwinding anxiety. I guess to be one of the two most effective APPs in that category. Yeah that's awesome. What's what's on that APP. It's basically to help. People understand their minds in how they get caught up in habitual patterns of anxiety and sort of a CBT in your hand kind of thing like a Nazi T. It's it's more. Mindfulness training in mindfulness excellent. And how's that how's it differ from you know some of these other abssador sort of meditative and that sort of thing it's based on science that's quite starts where we spent twenty years doing the research to figure out you know what it is about our minds work in the other piece that we found is there have been about fifty years where folks have been really focusing on willpower as a way to change behaviors from everything and the truth. Is THAT WILLPOWER. More myth than muscle. And so we're really diving in through the neural mechanism peace. And how does brain actually work? And how can we target that specifically in? Mindfulness seems to be one of the effective. We can help people understand what they're going to get from the APP. What's makes it different from the meditative APP? People seem to gravitating for it right. So we we give people step by step training ten minutes a day that really helps them understand their own minds from from a direct experiential perspective and then take practices that they build right into their everyday lives. So it's not like hey if you're anxious it down and meditate. It's about hey if you're anxious literally dig into that understand where it is and then Then be able to work with it in that moment is is it sort of like A. I'm sure so is it. Is it a practice like a habit of it? It was at your voice coming back to the house. It's well we use. And in the moment exercises to train them that In terms of how their minds working example of. I'm anxious right now but what would i. I sort of exercise be. Yeah we'll in one we start with just helping you understand your mind. Think of this is like step one is. Can you see you know what triggers anxiety? What are the habitual patterns that you go to a lot of people go to worry? So they're trying to you. Know their mind is trying to get in control and then look at. What's the what's the result of that? Worry and that behavior result relationships really important. Because that's what drives ritual behavior. It's not actually the behavior itself. Three enforcers yeah. Yeah and so if we want to change behavior we don't go at the behavior itself. We look at three enforcers and awareness can actually help us. E How unreal enforcing these old behaviors. Actually are like worry. Doesn't actually fix much right. No right in fact What would it occurs to me? Is that phobias. Sorta going to that same mode to randomly and it's a fun added very conscious experience with fear of flying myself where. I flew once on. Somebody's playing we were. It was so beautiful I like had no anxiety and it was then I had a conscious experience of Oh I could do this without anxiety and it was gone. I goes ahead experience it though I you totally have to acid. And that's that's the other piece where the mindfulness comes in and it helps us bring in that direct experience where we can see like with in particular. We're so identified with those thoughts. We can't imagine that we are anything different. For example I had early pilot test of our program. Who wrote me an email saying I'm so identified with my anxiety. I feel like it is etched deeply etched in my bones and what they can start to realize you know. These are thoughts. These are physical sensations associated with this. You know taking these things personally and that we don't have to take them. I was that person saying that. The it's part of their personality and they didn't they they felt they were going to change too much or something. I know they just felt like they didn't see a way out that it so much embedded in who they were and the Lo and behold we can find a way out we've had people be able to overcome full blown panic attack seeing that. These urged physical. My other question was does panic fit into this as well. Exactly it absolutely does. And we know panic. Attacks can be problematic but panic. Disorder is when we start worrying having our next panic. Italia been there is panic when I was in college and was mistreated completely and then I ended up having very high generalized anxiety because I was in fear of the next panic during residency training. Absolutely so fun and then the eating eating the eat right now program. Yeah Same principles where we learn to eat because were stressed. Not because we're hungry These old these ancient brain mechanisms think of it as caveman brain. Which was there to help us survive hopeless. Remember where food is now in modern day when everybody has a refrigerator and food delivery. We've learned to start to eat when we're stressed. We learned to eat when we're bored. We've learned to eat when we're lonely and so that habit loop get set up. That just is really hard to break so we can help people pay attention and see. Well what actually get from overeating. What do I get from eating? When I'm stressed what I get from eating junk. Food is compared to healthy food that we can start to break that cause and effect relationship when our brain starts to see how unrewarding that is and then we can also bring in what I think of as the bigger better offer of of awareness of curiosity of mindfulness itself to explain that last part. So there's a part of our brain called the orbital frontal cortex that actually stores and And determines this hierarchy of reward value so for example if I eat broccoli versus milk chocolate my brain's going to say okay. Milk chocolate and then for me dark chocolate definitely high up on the hierarchy so if given a choice milk chocolate dark chocolate it's gonna eat dark chocolate and we can do the same thing we're helping it see if I overeat versus just eat the right amount. What is out like in a hierarchy starts to develop when we pay attention and see oh overeating. Doesn't feel as good as actually stopping when I'm full. If you become conscious of what you're doing totally we have to become conscious as key it's the orbital frontal the conscious generating piece or is it the valence generating fees. It's more the reward peace. So it's saying okay that's worth x number of points versus wise worth. Who sounds sort of like a deeper structure like the middle or something doing that? Yeah it's I mean they're all they're all related but this one is is seemed to be the most consistently associated with reward value itself. Just a total sidebar. I I've got preoccupied lately with the insular cortex yeah Because it really to me what I'm learning what's coming into focus both in literature and I guess in my own mind about it is that that's the zone that gives you the feeling of feeling. Yeah what it's almost the quality. It's like what it's lacquer in Cortex in particular people have been zooming in on. What's described as introspective awareness? Exactly is it feel like feel and they're connecting it to the spot slamming the system and stuff but I feel like this a big story to be told there now. There is a big story to be told on a number of fronts Looking at this related. To mindfulness practice there have been a number of studies showing that the insular. Cortex is more activated when people are especially the post Okay so we had tell you it's got to polls too and they're different in the middle different than the poll. Yeah but it but it is in a way. It's kind of weirdly constructed like the Monkey lous on our on our motor and sensory courtesans right. That's the way it's described kind of in hind him. Yes so the post. Your insulin seems to be associated with more just raw in terms to wear an awful listrik kind of my gut whatever yeah totally and as you march toward the front or toward the anterior insular. This is where we start relating to those sensations so we bring in. I'm feeling yeah exactly. And how does this relate to previous feelings? And is this good? Is this bad? And all that. And that's structurally kind of near the orbital. Frontal SYSTEM ISN'T IT? It's in the same area 'cause. I was felt like frontal bride in the outside world into some of those interests of experiences. It is certainly across rate with regard to all of this you know. The literal translation of that is island. So it's kind of this island between these different lobes of the brain so interesting. Yeah totally that. That's a future right. Isn't it it really is understand this shit okay. So but but your your focus is is i? It's mindfulness but it's also on breaking reinforces right. Isn't it yeah? Those go hand in hand so if you think of how reinforcement learning works this caveman brain of ours needs basically just three basic elements drilling a metal Jimmy. The reward system. Yeah yeah the reward system from a behavioral standpoint. We need a trigger. A behavior in a reward says she seafood. You eat the food. That's the behavior. Then you get the dopamine signal to your brain that says remember what you ate and where you found it so it's actually set up reinforcement. Learning is set up to help us remember where food is same is true for avoiding danger. The danger you run away and then the reward is you. Don't get eaten. Are you. Explicitly bringing memory inherited. That what you mean by remember. Well it's you mean just sort of a no I thas of faint sense. That's rewarding. I guess that's memory there. Is it the more explicit? It is the more quickly learn things so the more we line up a specific behavior with a certain result or award the more likely our brain is to say okay. Do that again or don't do that again. So yeah very explicit in terms of causing effect. Okay and that's actually what drives behavior. There's this idea that I'd want to change behavior. I focus on the behavior. I think that's where a lot of Cognitive therapies and things like that and focused. But if you look at reinforcement learning reward based learning based on reward behavior itself so we focus on the reward and this is where mindfulness comes in is you can start to help us see very very clearly. What did I just do in? What's the actual result in when we bring awareness in we can? Our frontal cortex gets accurate and updated information. That says okay. This is rewarding. This isn't I'll give you an example In our smoking firms we did a study where we got five times the rate of gold standard treatment. We're like okay. What's going on here and we found that you know if if we bring people in and have them pay attention as they smoke. They realized that smoking actually doesn't taste very good right. And so that reward value drops we had a guy that focus on taste only whatever everything. Yeah taste smell Feeling in their lungs you know. A lot of them described that. There's this burning feeling. We're kind of convert into a reinforcer. Some some people. Well they're not paying attention and so. The reinforcing quality is that they're dopamine. Dopamine receptors are basically screaming for nicotine to say. Hey tickle tickle tickle me and so you know that piece supersedes the actual direct experience and so they get that dopamine hit and their brain says don't worry about this other status through that again. Just do that again if cocaine yes. It is very much like coke. Is it the shell of the nucleus accumbens where this is ongoing honors at some other region there depends on if you're talking mouser man a in mice we talk about the Shell? And the core of the accumbens knows the difference. Tell me more well. In humans. The anatomies more related to things like the nucleus accumbens Putin the And others like anterior and and post earier. It's a different. It's not a shell so much the answer to post your configuration. Yeah which is interesting sort of I guess. That's what we're seeing more and more of we get to know the brain right sort of answer. It does that correlate with some sort of evolutionary progress. That's above my pay grade right. Yeah the bottom. Line is probably. Yeah so we're is there a particular region just for listening new competences? Sorta the I think is the final pathway and reward. I call it the do it again. Part of the brain. Yeah Vertebrae is because people always go. Oh you get this pleasurable response. I'm not sure you feel anything. New ducasse commerce triggered. I accept do that again. I am so glad you say that. Because every there's this myth the dope dope I don't think I don't think there's a unless there's an opioid component. It doesn't really feel that good. So there are opioid receptors in the nucleus accumbens. But when somebody takes cocaine for example you know my patients describe this all the time. They're not talking about pleasure. They're talking about their their feeling restless. They're feeling on edge. They're feeling driven and often. They're feeling paranoid. Yeah well where's the pleasure in the worst? And they know intellectually they're going to get psychotic and yet they don't stop until they are completely psychotic. Yeah they can't they can't yet because the do it again. It's the best example I know of of this reward thing we're talking about. Yeah so I think ain't but crack particularly just just just just start and goes until the end well crack is interesting because you're our lungs are at this amazing delivery vehicle for such a huge surface area. Yeah so you can get this huge spike and it goes well forget the blood not just but there's no pass through it goes directly from the lungs to your brain. It has one second hailed brain. That's it you know. It's not going anywhere else and thus it has these extra physiological effects. Can You with these? Mindful is mindfulness. The right word for this but you do. Yes okay. Are these because it feels like I get where you would call it mindful because it is bringing to mind literally nothing? But it has a different connotation. Because mindfulness has a whole history. Yes we can actually simplify it by saying well. What are what are we actually talking about? We can talk about awareness so bringing awareness in a way that we're not biased. So we're not saying. Oh I'm aware of that in that sucks that's great. We're just bringing awareness really asking. Well how rewarding is disassembly part and Can crack be affected with this awareness? Stuff are for studies. Were done without going. Cocaine dependence found that is as good as gold standard treatment of crack. Most of the folks in that study were addicted to crack cocaine. And and then how do you keep them over once they get there? So that's another interesting piece so two pieces of this of the orbital frontal cortex wine stores reward value. So if we can help it see. Something isn't very rewarding like smoking or overeating or being caught up in a worry loop that roared value drops in the opens up the door for some for that bigger better offer. We can bring in that bigger better. Offer through curious awareness itself so if people really check in what feels better craving curiosity curiosity feels better so we can actually use curiosity as a way to replace that craving that says do this again. Do this again with. Oh what is that craving actually feel? I can't conflict the valence right. In that moment and help people not only be with cravings and ride them out but also realized they actually have something inherent in them right. You know. That's always available. That actually feels pretty good. Does the interpersonal figure into that. Because that's it seems like again. The orbital frontal can access some of those sorts of interpersonal regulators. At least what do you mean by interpersonal? Another just have been available. Oh Yeah I think connection is actually critical. That's the kind of the word that I always thought the orbital frontal really helped us with connection or gave us connection. I don't know if we know exactly at least I don't know all of the nuances of interpersonal many levels. Yeah and I think a lot of it has kind of been reworked you know. There was this mirror neurons hypothesis. That hasn't been replicated very well and so I think people are really Revisiting that to see what's going on but one thing we do know you know if you think of craving is this contracted closed down state. When we're curious there were more open where were expanded and when we're connected with others we also feel that expanded geology of experience in the expansion versus contraction. Expansion feels better. The warlock came from we would use craving as a motivator to make the connection. Yeah because I would always 'cause I 'cause it the patients worse with with the ones without cravings because they thought they were fine and they were motivated to make the connection. The craving was like I am going to use if I don't do something. Here's what you do. They do it there they can regulate the cravings. Then that's a really nice way to channel that energy from the. Yeah that's why win the whole addiction field start measuring cravings. I was like you not with what you're going to do with it. Yeah Yeah and I think people just think oh if we can just delete the craving people. Yeah God yeah that's staying. Sober part is is always. The heart always hard but as a key problem. Yeah so if people become less enchanted. Let's say with these old behaviors. They're less likely to relapse to them. This is where memory comes back in. I don't know if any of your patients you know. One of my patients taught me this term. Play the tape forward where he would say recovery. Yeah Yeah so when you say what was it tape output. So this guy he was. He was struggling with alcohol use disorders. So He'd be thinking well if I have this drink when I'm going to do I'm GonNa have another drink. And then have another. And then got their frontal if it's too soon early in their sobriety that frontal function isn't there yet. I can't play it out. Yeah they can't. That's where we can actually step into that process in terms of well directly played out right now like what's it feel like now. We have that strong crave area and can we. Actually you know in this moment work with that craving right there. Take that energy and You Know Subvert the dominant paradigm with curiosity itself. What are you going to pick your bail out this it? It just feels like we have a lot of work to do on the autonomic nervous system we really. We really don't know how it's organized really yet. We don't we don't Paris island something in medical. Just he's weird. Where and I wasn't learned I didn't learn about the Afrin component of the of the Vegas. I didn't know anything about that until ten years ago. And that's eighty percent of the damn nerve is coming out in out of the body to our brain. Yeah and how about this whole enteric nervous system this second brain? We probably have more than sound brain. We have like four or five of the baby. And why is the sympathetic system constructed? The way it is. Why is it along with those nuclear along the spinal? Why why is it like? Oh well you can. You can see all the way the professors as well. That's what they're processing the X. The sympathetic output. Yeah Yeah it exists wide. Does it exist like they did exist because it exists and I don't? I don't understand that. I think we need to understand why it exists like that. And then what the Hell's going on over our stomach and over our chest and we have no idea we know kind. What goes on in the brain with it a little bit kind of but pretty brain centric. Yeah Right GET READY TO TURN OUT FOR THE DANCE. Room on podcast. One joined renowned veteran dancers choreographers Heather Morris from Glee and Abe flav as they share their onstage stories chat with guests. 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Then when you get your true cash offer you head onto the truecar certified dealer and drive off with your new car. Well it could be used cars. Well don't forget truecar's new and used so when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car. Check out truecar today. Do you think there's this? Big Question is receptive element in our peripheral system in our body his sometimes it feels like it. Yeah well we're did that saying gut feeling come from well but the gut but my question is for sure it got fee but but is the gut receiving something from the outside world or is it the brain somehow reflecting in the gut which is how we've always thought about something weirdly receptive in our body. Yeah I think we're again pretty brain centric jar and I think that the two are absolutely related to each other and there's this back to the interests of awareness piece. Yeah there's a whole lot that we're not actually paying attention to that has to do with us. Really sensing stuff in our body. We privilege vision actually way more than anything else. Yeah and we're missing out on so much of of all these other processes in abilities to really pay attention and receive information. We're just not paying attention. You nicely put in their receive information. I don't think most academics have faith that there's anything received other than our bodily function which is sort of embedded in the world and if someone punched in the stomach we'd have a feeling but I don't think they've the rest of it that involve intuitive element of this faith in that out there yet. Well you know to really be assigned as we have to be being wrong. Yeah Yeah in in you make much of right brain left brain sorts of functional differences. Now I mean there's some clear ones like language and things like that but I think some of the others that people got really excited about Have not stood the test of time and I think the dichotomy around zooming in versus having this holistic view is probably the one that's been Born the test of time most in terms of right and left brain still fill hold. That right is more holistic and left the more segmented. What what is your research you preoccupied with. We're really we've been. We spent twenty years really trying to understand how habits form and then we've spent the last ten years really trying to zoom in on how we can very very specifically target those and again unhappy things. How unhappy things and move beyond the willpower. Myth is there a? I'm sure we'd get all this at Dr Judd Dot Com. Yes the DOT com. Is there a world where we start to focus on had good habits I mean? Aristotle pointed that out thousands of years ago that character is about repetitive habits. Do are you involved with that at all? That sort of odd interest me these days. Yeah you know if we really understand the brain and if we really understand our habits work this knowledge can generalize and this is actually what we see with a lot of folks in our programs. Whether it's our eating in. Are you right now? Programmer unwinding anxiety program even in our craving equip program for smoking. We're seeing that people are really They get how their mind works and they see okay. I can own. Let go of his old habit but they start to see things like connection kindness generosity actually feel good in themselves and this is where the aristotle notion of of character you know back then they also talked about you. Die Monia. Which is this this piece and equanimity? That comes with simply being truly connected in not Not caught up in our own personal view of the world and we can see you know when when I'm when we're totally just into having a relationship or really just even having a good connection through a conversation it feels great but if we don't know how that works we're just GONNA be like well. That was fine or how do that but if we say okay well let's line this up. What what did you just do? What was the result of what you did. And we can help people really zoom in on was there a closed quality or an open quality and that close quality which lines up with craving which lines up with disconnection. You know rumination anything. When we're regretting the path worrying about the future all that stuff leads to close quality of experience. We can people see what leads to that so that they're they get less excited to do that. And then they stopped doing those things we can also help them see the opposite so when they're connected with somebody when they actually put down their phone in have a conversation with somebody I know. Well I think we can actually hack that. We can actually tap into that process and help people see that much more clearly. And then they're going to naturally their brain is just going to naturally inclined in that direction because it feels better the This this HE DONALD VERSUS DEMONIC. Happiness is sort of so we've lost. We've lost track in this country. Happiness is. Yeah and I think we can get it back. I absolutely think we can get it back whether it's with with these APPs his way to give people you know a tangible way to do this and you know it's really interesting. I was in my clinic. It's like why can help one person. I can offer a couple of folks but then we really wanted to step back and say how can we help people on a population level and one thing I realized was that people don't learn to stress in my office? They don't learn to smoke in my office. So could I actually take my office to them? And that's when we started looking at developing digital therapeutics history and and you have studies now showing the efficacy of these the APPS. Yeah coming our program. We published a two thousand seventeen studies showing that we got forty percent reduction in craving related. Eating we got. We did a study with anxious. Physicians welcomes was one of the easiest studies. Art Surgeon Yeah. They're just in denial right close to sixty percent reduction in Gad. Seven scores these generalizing Bob Disorder seven. And what time three months. Wow Yeah yeah and we just finished a study with are craving equip program where we could scan people's brains at baseline who are trying to quit. Smoking randomized them to get our craven equip program or the National Cancer. Institute's APP scan them a month later and find that. Mindfulness training directly change their brain mechanisms. Which directly led to clinical outcomes in terms of reduction? Smoking nothing in the Control Group. So insecure tra- generally for sure in addiction and these kinds of behaviors. One of my grave concerns is the timeline of research and it never goes more than about six months. I mean rarely. Do you have stuff that come back at three to five years. You planning like that to see where they are. Those studies are pretty hard to do so a lot of a lot. Just assume lost to follow up his using. That's the one thing they never do. Follow relapsed have guaranteed. Most a lot of folks that is the case in a lot of research is moving in that direction where that very conservative way to look at the research with smoking in particular People have found that six month equals a year equals two years and smoking. Yeah if somebody's quit and with eating for example about twelve months is a pretty good indicator if somebody's going to keep the weight off are you. Are you sharing some of your stuff with some of the other big leaders in the addiction field like John? Kelly and I'm preseason those guys. Are they interested in all this? Yeah Don Kelly in particular just speaking at a conference together a little while ago and it's really interesting to see the connection between like twelve steps programs for example. Some of this stuff is very very similar. It's not as explicit so it it well as such. The patients may not be as motivated to follow. What's being said because they may not have. They made it deeper understanding of why that stuff's being asked to them yeah. I think this is where. Mindfulness can actually work. Pretty well with some of these programs like first step is i. I don't have control. Well this look just look at any diet program that says you've failed willpower versus it. Failing you you know. So the more we surrender and let go of that the more we can actually start to step back and say well. How does my brain and my story thing yeah and and addicts are afraid to surrender or that are? They're using doesn't want them to yet. I mean the motivational state. There in. Who's not afraid of surrender. We have to actually open up and be vulnerable. So it's A. It's a natural protective mechanism that we have to work with Do you have any tips for getting people through that? You know I think a lot of people talk about hitting rock bottom and they think they're easy but that's where they're like. Everything else failed so once. I don't think we need to. We need to absolutely hit rock bottom for that but one way to help people start to see this just in moment in their daily lives. Where is it? Where's the moment where? I've resisted something are. Where's the moment where I've really put up a wall and can I look to see? Is that actually making things worse or better and not then as they start to win other minds work then they can see how that generalizes to these other pieces where it's like. Wow you know forcing things didn't help. It didn't help here didn't help here wait a minute. I see a pattern. And then they actually open to seeing. Oh maybe there's a different way. I think a lot of people do see T. kind of this way and addiction setting they. They're kind of look at the same stuff I don't. They know what they're doing. But yeah it's an interesting piece. They intuitively moving in that direction. And I'd love to see you know there's a lot of this piece know. Catch it check it change it. Well you prefrontal CORTEX which is weird. He seems to be working is the weakest part of our brain from an evolutionary perspective. And so it's we can't really rely on that piece to help us win. Where stressed or anxious or when all these things that precipitate relapse so the peace there is to say can we actually step back and instead of trying to change something really tap in and let our brain change at for us? My instinct has always been that that is able to happen because of the connection that they get cvt and it may maybe. Just the empathic atonement. That's more impactful than actual well. People have shown that that's really really important. Well and I think we can also have tim it with ourselves. You know 'cause we're often. We distance ourselves from ourselves. We go to these things numb ourselves. Not feel our bodies you know live short distance from our money so to speak and that's actually word. Some of these awareness practices can help as well does trauma. Get the manage through all this stuff to or. There's a lot of work being done with mindfulness in trauma like Tom informed. Mindfulness as you know a lot of people start using because of trauma his throat common and does that interest you that area of researchers at. It's absolutely interesting. I think critical piece to look out. Yeah I don't I just think it's so common right now are we? Are we in a epidemic of this or is it always been common humanity? I think figure it out. My sense is that people are just reporting and looking more. You know it's living longer with it. Probably yes yeah. Yeah people. I imagine trauma in the past. Oh I got a question for you. I don't know if you're comes into your stuff at all but I've always been wondering about. Repetition TRAUMATIC reenactments That there's this uncanny thing that people do they into me. The reenactments are usually based on attraction the motivational states. More than anything people. Bela just for people. That are listening if you had an abusive alcoholic father you might find yourself magically attracted to abusive calling and if you're a woman or vice versa. And you think if we from volusia point point point of view we would do the opposite. We'd avoid the guys are the particular person traumatized as new. We'd avoid that but we don't we're actually and it's not like and people always go. Oh it's because it's familiar that that is a flimsy. That is a flimsy explanation especially when attraction is linked into it. I mean there they can spot these people across the room at are drawn to them. Yeah Yeah let's dive into that more. The brain is actually a prediction machine. It is trying to predict the future and then somebody somebody recently say that. That's what they think. Memory is that memory is in a sort of projecting forward by kind of encoding the past. Yeah absolutely yeah so. The future is totally dependent on memory without memory. It's hard to. It's hard to make any any sense in in predictions for the future so our brains are doing their best to help us have a stable relationship with the future. Saying I know exactly what's going to happen and they would. They would prefer certainty over something that is quote unquote better. And so the brain's going to say okay. I know exactly how this is going to go. And there's this quality of reinforcement that says I would rather know how it goes then not know how it goes but I would rather I would say more explicitly. I want to because there's a motivation to it. I want that again and and it's almost like there's a map. There's some sort of mapping that were sort of stepping into that makes sense. Now see more about that. I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about really. It's almost like much the way we're saying that encoded memories. The way of predicting the future is like there. There's with that abusive alcoholic father is there is a whole story. Narrative mapping. Almost of. What's coming with that that I want that and it may be attached to something we call love or whatever that is if you're ready to tackle that that that sort of that's what we want. Is that again? What's interesting so let's go there with you. Love there's been a fair amount of research now where we can actually disentangle romantic love from stable More like you'd I mo Nick route so that's interesting that right isn't it later? Phases of love. Some the the work that's most consistently been found is around so nucleus accumbens could act gets activated. Do that again right. Yeah maybe the whole thing. Just do that again. Well I think there's more nuance to that. So there some folks have found that. Actually there's a default mode network this self-referential network that is involved in terms of not only early stage. Romantic love but also in obsessive love so even in the default mode network is yet. Say It's a network involved in self referential processing basically you know when we're lost in the past when we're worried about the future when we're craving drugs word When we're ruminating when we're separating basically anytime we get caught up in our experience as it relates to me that network gets activated ear based I wouldn't. It's it can be related to fear so for example. Fear leads to this contraction right. And so that contracted quality. We've actually mount that in my lab that contracted quality activates the post. Your cingulate CORTEX. One of the main hubs default mode network. Interestingly we found that same brain region gets quiet in experienced meditators exit gets quiet when people are being curious for example. I talked to Antonio Damasio and he said that's what most thoroughly knocked out during Alzheimer's dementia. Yeah I know it's this paradox. The cosmic joke that the more we think about ourselves more likely. Artif- forget who later in life so crazy hiring Zaidi's associated with Alzheimer's or more so more metabolic activity has been associated in. There have been some indirect links with anxiety leading to leading to Alzheimer's or predisposing folks to Alzheimer's as well so and then the more we start worrying. Never going to get Alzheimer's they're more. That's just can't make it worse. He was he was saying that a few years ago I talked to him. He really felt that post era. Singlet do you're talking about is where the self by presided yes. There's my my labs actually separate there are. Two main hubs of Default Monette. Were the post. Your single it's one of them. And then there's this medial prefrontal cortex in my lab and others have really parse this out a bit. Where the medial. Prefrontal CORTEX seems to be involved in the conceptual sense of self. So get up. Look in the mirror and say oh. Yeah that's -joyed but the experiential quality to that that says you know if I'm like. Oh my here's going great and I contract around that. That's the experiential self and we've actually map that using That's post your cingulate CORTEX That's interesting thing. Get your head around. Yeah so from. Let's use a concrete example. So I if somebody says your podcast sucks and you're like what That's inexperienced that says. Okay this is me and then outside of that. Contraction is the rest of the world so when we practiced mindfulness for example. We can start to see. Oh there's that contracted quality of experience. What does that lead you know? How's that how's that going for you? Basically so we start to see the that is less exciting but we can also bring in awareness and kindness and connection in that moment and start to move from that contracted state more open state and as we move and move and move in that direction we start to lose a sense of our boundary. And where where we end. And where the rest of the world begins. And so to that. And I've noticed and if this fits with that story you've just told that people that are grateful and forgiving are usually pretty damn well. Yeah so what? Gratitude is not a contracted state. It's more of an Opel state. Yeah same for generosity. It's not a contracted state. It's an open state is as long as it's true pure generosity. It's not like I'm GonNa do this. Get that's more wanting right back and recovery teaching that and being the object of to assume you have to learn how to do. Oh Yeah Yeah well that brings invulnerability so here. You know I love this idea that vulnerability it's strength because if we let go of this protective armor that we put up like healthcare providers you know we learned in medical school in residency. Like you've got to armor up You. GotTa be tough. Don't show weakness and all this stuff will that is actually where we're seeing. Burn out and I think because it's a lot of work to protect ourselves and coming at you. There is a lot of stuff on us. Well so we can do two things one is. We could put up the armor to protect ourselves or to. We could start to see through this this self protective mechanism and open ourselves to being vulnerable and realize what? I don't actually have to take any of this stuff personally and when we realize. Oh I don't have to take this personally. There's this huge burden lifted. Psychiatric patients are pretty good at getting under your skin they are. We know how the mind works. It's all right truly. I learned this firsthand working with talks with borderline personality. Just say protective identify -cation. They are better. They're just genius brilliant. Oh my God brilliant i. It's going to sound weird but might head nurse used always. She'd go like this. You make like my favorite Martian antennas under head because the borderlines seemed to know when I walked onto the campus block. Two blocks away yeah. There's there's fresh meat so good. They're so good. Yeah but anyway. So they're better fo that. I you know what I mean in terms of protecting myself. Protect your applications. Essentially people putting their yucky feelings into you Ashley and you catch him you. It's hard not do well for me. That was that was one of the big enigmas is like what the hell is going. What's happening and when I really started working with these folks if you have to do it a lot to understand to get your feet under you what I realized as I looked at because he was like I had to memorize the criteria. Because I could just couldn't wrap my head around it and they feel like all you gotta remember what it feels like. Oh yeah that's right. I just got stabbed time. I don't even know who what why that happened. So if we look at this from a reward based learning perspective it's really interesting and we're at a part of a chapter on this and we even published a scientific paper this where if you look at intermittent reinforcement with reinforcing reinforcement learning if you look at the criteria so there's an unstable sense of self and they're doing all these things like Borland. Yeah in borderline so combine. We're being we're we're using humor not being disdainful of people or they suffer. Believe me suffer and I was much or more than most and so this is not to make little of that disorder. It's a serious thing if anything. It's just a laugh at myself in terms of how much I got dragged into it and for and fool and by the way and we're both laughing ourselves probably earlier in our career will get sucked in and spun around in ways that we shouldn't have been if we were more skilled if we well and that's where I learned a whole lot from this so if you look at people with personality disorder unfortunately a lot of them have had a childhood trauma history course so if you think of the parent whose alcoholic walking through the door. The kid doesn't know whether mom or dad is going to love them or hit them and so in that sense they're they're they're spidey. Senses are up and they're having this completely unstable childhood so they get intermittently reinforced and so they never develop a stable sense of self. And so you know that that part of them is jacked up just trying to find some stable thing to hold onto and as they do that more and more and more you know they realize well don't realize but subconsciously there isn't really anything to hold onto especially when somebody gets idealized you know they idealize somebody trying to get that stable stable bond and then somebody says wow this is weird. I'm leaving and then we'll but they precipitated sometimes which is back to those room reinforcing reward maps or whatever calling them. Yeah yeah absolutely. Yeah so if you bring all this together there actually is a pretty good model. If you look at reinforcement learning and especially pay attention to the pieces related to the intermittent reinforcement which we now know is the most reinforcing type of learning basically. It's like it's it's how the slot machines work win. Every time or otherwise casinos. Wouldn't or what skinner have the case of the superstitious pigeon? Yeah right yeah absolutely. We do a pigeon that they'd have the he has pigeons skinner boxes and they would get reinforce it send down some corn pellets or something but there's one pitch and they send down randomly and the pigeon develop these elaborate behaviors because the pigeon thought in quotes that these all. These behaviors web caused the corn to come down when it was just completely random. Yeah that's Gus. That's where our superstition becomes from a little bit. So if we can understand that so for example when I started understand that instead of following the rule for example working with my patients with borderline personality disorder said it. You know there's this rule like don't let your visco long make sure you start them on time. Do all this stuff and I was like okay. I don't know why I'm doing this but I'm doing. It realized it's helping them even in very little way. Start to form son stability director. Yeah and so. That structure helps develop a stable sense of self. Even if it's as simple as we're stopping our session at fifty minutes every time you know doesn't matter how much you're kidding. You're the worst Dr ever attendance. I'M GONNA kill myself and so that so if we don't worry about protecting ourselves right if we don't take that personally we can actually that. Its limitless to be able to to take that and this is where we can move from. Empathy compassion are wrote a chapter about this in my book where the craving the craving mind. Yeah so we can move from using the example of healthcare providers. Because that's what I know from personal experience. We were supposed to put ourselves in our patients. Shoes and our patients are suffering than if so factor. We're going to be suffering quite a bit. We're going to be taking a lot of stuff personally. If we realized that we don't have to take things personally that we can actually not have to bring all this energy to self protection if we let go of that. It frees up all this energy to be with our patients and to be with their suffering without taking it. Personally here you talk about that reminds me of. I'm an internist by training and we're given none of this in our training. Yeah I even as a psychiatrist I was given his right and it came late for me. Oh that later came. You know as a result of working in a psychiatric setting and and we gotta find a way to communicate that to our peers limit. I think so. We're we're really losing ground and it's not that difficult. It's it's it's it's you know what I mean some challenging intellectually. It's just requires diligence and practice and motivation. Well I'm glad you say that because a lot of people I think is especially because physicians are are really out in our study. My research assistant just calculated the average age of the people that joined our study. Ready for this forty five So folks are burnt out mid career. You know they've only been in practice like twelve to eighteen year old. It's easy to Broward that so I actually put together you know just a free. Cme Course for physicians and for any healthcare providers that really just want to understand the basics of this roar based learning system. Because I didn't learn it in residency training and we specific focus specifically focused two modules on burnout and developing resilience. Because like you're talking about this. The principles are pretty simple. We just have to understand the basics of them and then we can start to apply them to not only helping. Our patients overcome bad habits. But help us become more resilient. Yeah I out of the way it. Kinda manifest this Bernard noticed in my period was everyone started jumping into sort of administrative other job. That you couldn't do the clinical stuff anymore was asked younger guys game thing. That's really too bad because that's when you were in in primary care especially where the wisdom comes seen and it's not just okay. I learned this year and medical school and residency. But we're like now you know there's a nuance here that you don't learn in residency. I smell it literally a second olfactory so deep and so I can trust it so much when you have this kind of experience. Yeah so these are the folks. We WanNA keep healthcare as long as possible and help them realise moving in that direction. We're taking that group and putting them a step back and putting much standards in front of him. I know because we don't realize that's like this this quick fix solution as compared to stepping back and realizing we actually might know enough that we've got a solution that's more tenable and can help everybody in the long run. It's not that hard to do but I agree with you right now with this quick. Fix mentality that the the systems have it's it's we've got. It realized that that quick fix the next quick. Fix the next quick fixes. Just bandaids upon bandits. Yeah I'm I'm not sure I would call it even quick fix. It's just a it's a car wash like mentality and I'm not sure. They expect to be fixed. Just they wanna be done with it. Well the system saying okay. Somebody's burnt out. We need to fill them in. So we extenders. That's where I'm looking at that band but I like the car was analogy. I think that works because it's the only thing for me and it's it it's all done if only if only life work great and so if people are interested in this. Let's let's say you don't have anxiety just interested in the topic. We we've been talking about with the gravy. Might be the best place to go crazy minds. Good we've also put together some resources on my website. Dr Dot Com. You know everything from animations where people can actually learn how the mind works through. We have this one on everyday addiction. So people can learn is why we get this from shopping to smartphones to hardcore addictions and then for healthcare providers. We have this free course where people can just really start to learn the basics of their mind and of course if they want that can read my book also twitter at Jan Brewer. Vr Wer Instagram at Dr Period. Judd. Right and Do is this educational the social media. Yes yeah that's how we spend most of that time so I want to follow on that on those fronts and and as you go forward what's is there some preoccupying now worrying you as you look at the world from the perspective. You now have just curious. I guess I'm sort of ASK MORE PHILOSOPHY QUESTION. Now that were yeah. I'm with the brain. I'm worried that we're losing the ability to think I think as humans. That's one of the most beautiful and precious resources. Is this ability to wonder into think interested on to just go out in nature and not be doing something to did now. Thinking is a lot of things in real. Always a thoughtful thinker or something. Come through your training I. I've always been one. That's been fascinated with how the world works and I'd love to just understand things I think. As I went through life I would would go out in. Nature Gone backpacking trips and just love to just to rest in nature. And I started getting into meditation to just really rest in being rather than doing. So would you say you lose the capacity to think because because? Here's my personal experience. I was sort of a lazy thinker until I went to college. And then it just it like turned on it became I went. I got my ass handed to me in my collegiate training and it was good but I was not a great thinker before that is kind of thinking analytical careful objective thought you're talking about. I think it's more creative where we're we just need time to let our mind. Do its thing as compared to let me solve a problem. Great if we can put aware twitter in our cell phones for ten minutes we can. Do you know we can solve most of those those things relatively in a straightforward manner. What I'm talking about. Is that making those deeper connections. That only our brain is good at doing. When we're out of our own way would it also include like breeding fiction and that kind of thing? I think those are always great ways to kind of let our brains cook in an information. Yeah and just you know. Reading good stories helps our brains practice like just imagining things. Yes that's what it seems. We don't do much of that anymore. Well we're you know we read for five minutes and then our brains who got to check my social media and then it's you know it's being bing bing bing on the reward system. Yeah if you weren't doing this what would you be doing? I can't think of anything more important than helping people. So honestly it's a it's kind of a loaded question that yeah well listen. I really appreciate you sharing with me because it's all stuff I'm fascinated by. Maybe just a smidge above a dilettante but not much and so. I really appreciate your expertise and bringing all here. I'm going to read the book. I'm preoccupied with all this stuff right now. Just because it's just I'm interested in human experience like you are and I think we're just getting close some really interesting stuff right now. We are getting really close and I think the pieces where we're starting to see these clear links we're in sync significant results. I mean forty percent reduction in craven related eating. You know so that's pointing to something that people are going to take notice. Is there a name for this? Is Behavioral Psychiatry Neuro Behavioral? Psychiatry their name. I think we can put lots of names on. It doesn't really doesn't know field of this. I think you know behavioral well. I mean behavioral neuroscience behavioral. Psychiatry I think is a good way to put it as compared to pharmacologic psychiatry. I mean the behaviors has of nefarious sort of but certainly has a history where it it hasn't been a great history so I think feel disconnected from that feels like something new. Because it's so brain-based it is very brain-based but some of the basic learning processes carradine similar yeah. We can't ignored the things that skinner discovered in. Fact if you look at it the ancient Buddhist psychologist discovered way these things way before he did it. All overlaps yes. They're works works. Yeah and they're just. Can we do it better as a question absolutely? I think we can. We can even start to personalize this as we start to bring in. You know these personal dynamics and you know does this work in particularly. Welford this person or this person. We even see this with our APP based training we have enough data now where we can actually do some of this deep learning and look to see. Can we personalize this for this person or this person? I it's almost like oncology what's personalized individualized. Yes very interesting. I think behaviorally we need to hold ourselves to those same standards with ecology. They've moved from a blow. Up Your cancer before your love your body and I think we can get that personalized with baby training as well as we get better. A veteran understanding go to Dr John Dot com on binding anxiety APP eating. Eat Right Right now and the remind thank you so much. Thank you next time for Colin Times and topics follow the show on twitter at Dr Drew? Podcast that's Dr Dr. W podcast music. Through today's episode can be found on the swing and sounds of the document podcast now available on I tunes and while you're there don't forget your rate the show. Dr Drew Podcast is a Corolla digital production. Hen is produced by Chris. Locks on and Gary Smith for more information go to Dr Drew Dot COM. All Conversation and information exchange during the participation in the doctor of your podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes. Only do not confuse this with treatment or Medical Adviser Direction. Nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede relationship and direction of your medical hair takers. All the Dr drew is a licensed physician with Specialty Board Certification by the American board of Internal Medicine in the American Board of Addiction Medicine. He's not functioning as a physician in this environment. Singapore standing professionals who may appear on the PODCAST. Dr Drew Dot Com.

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Find the Type of Meditation thats Right for You ep 25

Changes Big and Small

13:04 min | 10 months ago

Find the Type of Meditation thats Right for You ep 25

"You are. Listening to change is big and Small Business Damian your host as we explore what makes change exhilarating each episode. We'll explore how you can create freedom in your life by embracing change. I interspersed interviews with research and challenge is to help you make changes in your life today. I am exploring the topic of meditation. I'm going to be looking at. What is it that different types and how you might choose which types to incorporate into your life? Let's get started. So what ease meditation. You can find many different definitions of meditation online. I like this one presented by researchers from New York University and Virginia Tech Caribbean Research. Institutes Meditation is an inch. Int- mindfulness practice that stems from Buddhist and Hindu cultures where the practitioner intentionally engages the mind by bringing an increased awareness to thought and feeling while. It's true that that goal is to be more mindful. Meditation actually encompasses of variety of different mental practices. Depending on the type of meditation. You do or that. You're interested in doing. You'll be developing different parts of your brain. So where can you start? When I searched in the browser for kinds of meditation I found lease with seven types. Sixteen types twenty three types. You can start to get an idea of the range of approaches that there are two meditation given so many different types. If one doesn't work for you you're likely to find another way. That does meditation CAN BE GUIDED ALL ON GUIDED. Carmen or insights with guided meditation. You follow along with someone else's voice who is coaching you. Through the process as the name suggests on guided meditation he's The opposite. Uc to learn and there are no external prompts. Of course you can use to strategies that you've learned from previous guided meditations in Carmen Meditation. You try to cultivate piece by focusing on a particular thing like your breath on Mantra. If your mind wanders you gently bring it back to this object with insight meditation. You have an intention to develop a particular quality you focus on the breath and notice what comes up for. You have noticed that the meditations that I'm doing have elements of both calming and insight in them. Those approaches at often combined into many different meditation practices. Harry's a partial list of some of the different types of Meditation Sound Movement Body Scan. Self observation concentration mindfulness chantal repetition feasible isolation breathing loving kindness focused attention open money to win transcendental. Zen Zen Meditation Mantra Meditation. She Gong Meditation. You can likely tell from the name. What each of these entail with all these different classifications. Is it any wonder that newcomers to the space? I confused by what it means to meditate a research study out of Germany classified meditation into three categories presents which is being mindful and focusing on the present affect focused on developing positive social emotions and being kind and helpful using loving kindness meditation and perspective which focuses on. Meta cognitive skills and becoming more aware of your own personality as well as the perspective of others. Later we'll discuss why you might want to choose one type of meditation or another depending on your goals. So why might you want to meditate? While in general meditation increases the quality of life and has several physiological effects as well different types of meditation have the following effects. Increase FLEXIBILITY IMPROVED. Immunity increased lifespan attention on memory improvements. More improvements reduce Zayed's. He mowed disturbance and fatigue improvements in health such as the decrease of blood pressure on inflammation reduced to social stress a decrease in bias and reduced levels of depression pain and substance abuse. We've so many great benefits. What do you have to lose by spending some quiet time alone each day? The great thing is that results are pretty quick with meditation in two weeks or months. Not Years There are several research papers available on this topic. I'm going to focus on one. That was done out of New York University and Virginia Tech really an research institutes. I used a definition from them earlier. This suggest a minimum dose for meditation. This study showed improvement attention memory mood and emotional regulation after. Just eight weeks of meditating for thirteen minutes a day. Participants meditate at an average of five point five times a week following a guided meditation using full body. Scans and breathing exercises. This study is promising thirty minutes. A day is less than twenty minutes. Which is a number that we often hear through an around for that amount of time one. Can Spaniel should spending meditation? Also participants didn't have to meditate everyday. But rather almost everyday. These shows the importance of regular consistent practice to benefit from any tation but it also allows for the occasional missed day with minimum effects. So how can you choose the right meditation for Yourself? We've seen that. There are many choices for meditating. One approach is to start exploring the different types until you find something that resonates with you. I found the easiest entry to meditate for me was breathing meditation. It soothes me to watch the animation to breathe in and out and you can do that right into browser using the link in the show notes. When I lived in Japan. I also tried sesana meditation. I actually spend the whole session counting down the minutes and hoping that the monk would not hit me with the big sticky was carrying. I heard him. He'd someone else in the meditation and after that I tried to sit upright with my hands in the proper preposition because I did not want to be heat. I third that he might see me slouching and decide to hit me. It was only later that my friend told me you need to signal him to hit you. Nowadays I use the insight. Time UP FOR GUIDED MEDITATIONS AND. I also follow her brock's podcast which includes some reflections and meditations more love and kindness and insight. Meditation the Chopra Center listed five questions that you can ask yourself. If you're new to meditation dot nowhere to start what do you feel is lacking in your life? How does your body feel? Are there any places where it feels heavy or stuck to have a lot on your mind more than usual? Do you need help focusing. How do you want to feel nourished connected and is purposeful et Cetera? The key is to try meditation and stop judging yourself about if you're doing it right. Lead gorth expectation on consider. How does it feel in your body? Can you time to do it for a few minutes while you tents and counting down the minutes if y method doesn't work for you try something else does? Does one meditation teacher distracted with a choice of words? I had that happened to me recently. I got today thirteen over thirty day. Cars and I stopped because the message just did not resonate with me. Try a different teacher. That's what I did. The important thing is to try meditation with an open mind and to notice how the experiment fields for you. Research shows that in Generaux Meditation. Improves attention. Memory and changes our brain. However the type of meditation you practice will determine what parts of your brain develop. Different types of medications have different impacts on your life if you want to decrease your physiological stress. Try breathing meditation. If your goal is to be more compassionate try loving kindness meditation loving kindness. Meditation also helps to reduce social stress. Probably because you are learning to be less judgmental yourself if you want to develop social connection triumph detain with your pa. Are we for friend? That involves some interaction between the two of you with mindfulness meditations and other meditations focused on the present the regions of the brain affected either anterior prefrontal CORTEX and anterior CINGULATE CORTEX. Menin increased attention and greater capacity for organisation and complex planning loving kindness. Meditations develop the insular CORTEX. And that's what's responsible for managing your consciousness and emotion and finally partner Meditations in the perspective realm will help improve your language processing and auditory skills by developing the inferior frontal cortex and lateral temporal cortex the main takeaway. There is that the type of meditation you do affects what part of your brain develops the key to reaping? The benefits of meditation is to do it regularly. We saw earlier. How you can rip some benefits in eight weeks? As the amount of meditation increases and the frequency increases and amount of time you've been doing it increases. You will also begin to develop more body awareness now for the disclaimer. There are some people that meditation is discouraged for. And these are people with borderline all psychotic conditions. In that case meditation can actually lead to the personalization Andy Realization. So here's my challenge for you to get started with meditation. Many of us are physical distance. In right now and you may be spending more time at home so it may be a good time for you to try meditation. What is the minimum dose that you are willing to do right now? If you're feeling inspired please. Pause the podcast and go and do a meditation. I find that most successful if I meditate at the same time every day after it onto my morning routine at the time of my life. I've found that I will more consistently meditate if I do it right at the end of my day or once I get home from work. You can piggyback on a well. Established habit so that you'll meditate along with that or the activity. I think that's referred to as happy stocking by James Clare. Would it help you to set a daily reminder to meditate go ahead and add a daily reminder in your calendar the key is to find what works for you if you can remove barriers and if you can create routines fish will help you make meditation into a habit instead of into just an activity. Good luck I hope that you all stay healthy. Please come join us in. The changes begin. Small facebook community all send a message. All tax changes begin small on social media. If you have been very successful with meditation and you have some tips to help the rest of us that I still on our journey. I the beginners intermediates. I would appreciate the advice so please leave a comment. Thank you for joining me for this episode of changes big and small. If you haven't then soil ready please subscribe so that you will receive weekly updates. Whenever a new episode is released on Wednesday. Have a great day and a great week and to end as always remember that change begins with one small step.

Carmen Meditation Generaux Meditation New York University anterior CINGULATE CORTEX facebook insular CORTEX James Clare Carmen Virginia Tech Caribbean Resear Uc Harry Zayed Germany Chopra Center brock partner Japan Virginia Tech
Dr. Drew

Inside of You with Michael Rosenbaum

1:15:36 hr | 8 months ago

Dr. Drew

"You're listening to inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum. How's it going jagged week and there was a weekend sometimes. It feels like every weekend doesn't it also if you could please follow us on all our social media's and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching that really helps. You can watch on Youtube. Brian makes these amazing video. So you can watch the interviews there or listen on spotify. Please subscribe writer review. You gave us a five star rating. I mean seven thousand ratings. Whatever it's pretty bad ass so make sure you handle US and handle us. It's getting a little perverted. I've been doing those instagram lives. If you've joined us we had zach leave. Came on the other night and it was awesome. We talked about you. Know therapy in life and it was really great. It's really fun if you get to see any my instagram live. I know some people taped it but Soon as I have special guest Papa. The most interesting thing is really on those instagram lives. People want to be invited to be on the video so you could split the screen with them. So I randomly invite people to come on instagram. Lives and they have been unbelievable. We're GONNA do Patrons stuff at the at the end my shouts to my lovely patrons who I love inside even also the Patriot The horror patron that. I'm doing the John Heater. Napoleon dynamite. You know we're doing the Hora Patriot exclusive. It's only there it's called. Where have all the good movies gone? We review movies. But we also talk and comment to each other and then and the patrons and it's actually really a lot of fun and thank you. Bryce for your editing in your and by the way we message when you get messages from us on the Patriots us. More importantly the great Charities out there that I love Ronald McDonald House. Reminding you Tom Welling Chris crew myself. We did a amaze dot com slash reunion. You donate for Ramadan House of Los Angeles that I've been a part of for a long time. And they draw somebody and you get to have a virtual room with US within. Just talk to us for a long time. So that's fun Also throwing out on foot dot org helping the homeless. I'm a ninety dollars club member Love that place and a lot of my listeners fans patrons unbelievably kind have I. I've heard from rob and the head of the organization on foot. They do your your people from podcast. Listeners are like donating money holy just too much. Don't get me started. You don't get emotional really quick. Support the animal rescue mission arm. My Good Friend. Shira who I. I love and Adore. She is part of that organization. She she heads it and go to their website It's really incredible. Tell Michael Rosenbaum sent. Are you listening to the inside of you podcast? Www dot the animal rescue mission dot org also is on instagram today. Said what the hell man so I I'm thinking of auctioning some old scripts that have signed. I have many of different things because I'm kind of like that. You guys now. Tom Welling he'd eating kristen. They didn't they didn't take anything with them. But I took wardrobe and things something like a raise some money so maybe a few scripts few of clothing whatever. I was on Instagram so I might auction those offer charity. Whatever you get one hundred bucks. Five Hundred Bucks Thousand Bucks you give it to charity every every count so it's good also go to inside of you online store We got inside of you mugs and sight you tons of stuff but new shirts and hoodies and all that stuff just came in and sell them. My caught cakes ago to the inside you online store and I'm doing a stage. It people been asking me to do stage at haven't done one and I've never done done one alone. That's tomorrow may twenty seventh at six. Pm California time at specific. That's Wednesday. Tomorrow it's a stage it with my good dear friend He's really the only person I've seen rob dancing. He's in the band left on Laurel. We we did the together and But he and I have been hanging out. He wears a mask. He's ten feet away so We're being safe and he will join me for a stage. It and what prizes and all that so go to stage dot com look for I think the the subject is Rosenbaum and Dancing D. A. N. S. O. N. A check that out. I appreciate you guys. This week is a great guest. A people have talked to me on the listeners. Written in the fans and I'm going to read some letters on the altro Of the show when when our guest is gone. But there are you know. It's it's talked about mental health. Talk about all these things. Why don't you have a doctor or something like that? Or is so. That's what we did so the past couple of weeks. I've interviewed my Some therapists a life coach this week. So that's going to happen. We're GONNA have a mental health with prefiguring all that out now but already recorded and fantastic but this week. This was amazing. This is someone that I've known for a while. Haven't known like we're not buddies In fact he doesn't really return my emails all the time. Because he's he's a doctor he's busy okay. So you know it's not like constantly berated the guy but no. He's a fantastic man. He's got a heart of gold. He helps a lot of people for free You know on Celebrity Rehab. He's What else I mean. There's so many podcasts. Love Line. He's got he was on the masked what is at the masked man masked crusader. I don't know I don't want you. But he was on it I love and he has so much insight today. You'RE GONNA love to and that's Dr Drew. Dr Drew Pinski. So why don't we get inside of Dr Drew? It's my pawn. You're listening to inside of you with Michael Rose by The inside of you with Michael Rosenbaum was not recorded in front of a live studio audience. A doing Dr Drew Sir. I'm good you like you're about to either. You got off work or you're about to go to a an event do I of an event. I've got the do a show and Fox eleven every night so I got a suit up for that. I got a blow out of here right afterwards all right. This is one of the reasons I wanted to have you not only for this but I just can't. I just can't imagine anybody doing more than you. I don't know how you're not divorced. I Dunno how you're not in celebrity rehab so it's a great question. I mean when I was really bad I mean my Workaho Ism so funny bring this up at a dream about it last night but am I daughter was sort of confronting me about. My work is in my dream but in my in the nineties. I don't know how my wife tolerated I don't know I would get up at five in the morning and I would struggle to get home by ten at night every day and I mean every day as so went for years. Did you make promises to this? Is GOING TO END. This is just how it is now and then it got worse. Probably that kind of saying or just this. Is this way I have to do this. Is You know the people are sick. I you know I I don't know I don't know what how I how I persuaded her. That was the right way to be but it took to carve it down to carbon down. What you've four podcasts. Is that right. But now I'm not bad not bad compared to how was this is like leisurely I never. I never ate a meal sitting down. I never got more than six hours of sleep and it was just. It was insane and the people would go off all night back in the days of the beeper still running in the middle of the night at least two nights a week is crazy. You a super. Do you still have a practice? Pasadena. I but it's small. It's basically followed for thirty years and be really really well. I I was doing telemedicine before became a thing. 'cause I can manage my patients. I mean I know them so well sorry to manage them. And how many do you have? How many regular patients that you've had all these years if you hundred you know three or four hundreds of three or four hundred? He's in a few. I was up willie up for a long time and I was doing a fulltime And and costal and seeing twenty-five outpatient today it was. It was nutty. Did they ever say things to you like you know? I'm sure you're busy with your celebrity friends or your celebrity patients but not the ones that have been listening if it with me forever and all that stuff started happening. They're like hey from our anyway about my about my back success. So they they they got. There was two worlds. I lived there. And what kind of medicine is that like? Is it just everything they come to you with everything and you kind of instruct them to go? You need to go see the doctor this specialist. Everything non-surgical I took care take Aaron and I used to do a lot of critical care. You know so then later management that stuff you starting to hear about these days in the coke day of covid used to a lot of nuts out and so I actually signed up to go to the York because I guess I I didn't know but I guess the younger internist aren't being trained. Do Intensive Care Medicine. They've left that now for the intensiveness and so I when governor Cuomo called out for tears I said men signed up. I come to work on the front lines. No problem and you've done that already. Rely signed up and I went through the interview process and they decided stand standby and they never called me. I would not happily mean. I really wasn't enforced. That job entail. What exactly would it be? It'd be a lot of work. He would have been admitting people into an intensive care. Unit coat probably. I don't know if I would have been managing the whole unit or do a shift on the unit or be there with other doctors vanishing the I duNno. I depends on the hospital but it would have been you know our care. Critical care critically ill patients but again. I did. I was going to be cardiologists in that got sidetracked because I started moonlighting R- after by finish my internship started moonlighting in a psychiatric hospital down the street and I became completely intrigued by what was going on there and I was initially and free for the first like five seven years I was there. I was running the medical services. I became really good in the medical management of psychiatric patients. And Guess we're a lot of the medical problems were they. Were down on drug unit so then I got interested in that population and how to get people off drugs. Even though I'd worked in a county hospital for you know fifteen years ten years Never anybody give me any guidance on on withdrawal and how that could be disciplined and there was a guy there at the time. This is a nineteen eighty nineteen eighty six and it was a guy there that has made a clinical discipline. Out of drudge on are GonNA learn that then turn to do that then I started. I got pretty good at it. And then people were asking me to see more and more these drug addicts also had lots of medical problems. And the whole while I was so fucking hubristic I was like. Oh what goes on in. Those rooms was twelve. Step on the watts. What is that? Nonsense twelve steps. I do real medicine and and I watched some people go young healthy people go from dying to amazing over the course of like three months and I was just like what is that why what is happening. I mean I need to understand more about that. And that's Kinda how I got into it. I mean you got into your father's a doctor right. Yeah and you'll captivated by what he did as as a youngster did you. I think I realized him in some fashion I always just assumed that's what I would do I hit amherst college in. Nineteen seventy six You know ran straight into winter there and the level of competition intellectually. There was insane and after a semester. Doing pretty well but I just tapped like I can't do this. I I'm not for this is really smart people here. Those guys get to do this. This isn't for me and spent about a year and a half screwing around Doing Music Theater and you send you. Did you see me on the mess singer? Well that's what I was GONNA ask. I mean I mean I mean. Did you want to be a performer? Did you WANNA be for about five minutes? I thought about going to West Germany and really draining seriously an opera. Because I was pretty good I could create a pretty good sound and I was. You know decent at at a classical music but I was thank God. I did not do that because I am a terrible musician and I have a son. Who's a really well trained classical singer? Nps He's the real deal. I was not even a dilatot together. I don't know we've ever done come on. Does he play a little? Jim Crow Chee. He's clasby train so weak. Know Jim Croce ended the second act of fellow or something and do a duet but let risely lead it. I got very depressed very depressed and during that period and started having panic attacks and just I was a rack and I was a little time going. We'll medicine thing they want me to do. I'm not that I don't allow me to find my own way Blah Blah Blah and then finally after about a year and a half of that nonsense. I had the urge to go got pretty good science. I wonder if I went back to that and immediately for better immediately thought. Oh there's something there and Started working my way back then I had to get my my act together fast Because now it's my junior year in college. I've got one semester premed under my belt and I've got to go to school full time I get a kick ass in everything. I've got a multiple science classes which was considered DAF at at at. My College. Didn't do it but I did it and made it through what is that. What is that because I never had that drive? Maybe was certain things but it just seems so overwhelming some so daunting to imagine to become a doctor. The things you have to have to really want to become a doctor. Go through that Richard. I was a when I was a freshman in college would have been terrible identity when I return to a junior I was on I was like and there's something about the male brain. My brain was not mature enough to sit and do the work that needed to happen when I was night. I was eighteen when I got to college but at night. Nineteen twenty will now. I could do it I can suddenly do. It is and I kind of excel at it and and I was. I was into it. I was very very very into it. So you love the work. You love being around people who love the work. I just love science and I love the rigor of the training at I was a very well trained scientists by the end actually a and then when I got to medical school I remember we would have. We would have glose anatomy at the end of the day everyday and I would get out of that anatomy lab and my car would always be on the room for this parking lot. I would just walk on. Go Oh my God. I'm so happy to be out if you have such purpose it. This is so meeting for him so delighted do now and so it just gratitude all cross now. The time I got into the words third and fourth year I got a little less moreover. Well that's when I started work. All isn't kicked off my co dependency so the residents would like kick the shit out of me for years And then when I got back around to residency then I was into it again. I was back really really really did just everything and you see this is the thing with science is that it's always changing and there's always things to learn. It's almost like being a technician or somebody WHO's with the Internet. Shit in an analogically speaking you have to keep up to date with editors that's overwhelming for me to think about a way airline pilots to keep up to date on the you know the aircraft and what's going on and make sure their judgment is good. I don't know somehow. Highly aircraft feels about the same and I can tell you this two aspects to this keeping up or one is well. There's axel testing. You should be doing every year and I do. This thing called the M. K. Sap every year. I've done absurd twenty years. You have to do it. it's a rare of keeping your medical education sort of at the top levels is this. It's just a crate. You don't have to using a lot of doctors do that. I A lot of guys do a lot of guys and gals do but but I. I don't know if it's a minority or not probably minority but there there's people that do it and I WANNA add no trouble keeping up on the reading. I like it I'm into it. I read three journals week. But that's that's kind of easy. Ed Part the the more meaningful part is what you get from your peers. This is the part that people don't appreciate that you have to be interacting with your peers to to know what what's happening right now. You have to be talking to a specialist. You have to be hearing from the get it because the the sub specialist in medicine near the cardiologists against Rajasthan neurologist They're the ones that sort of set the practice and and what they are doing you have to be interacting with is. They're they're the ones moving things along all the time. And WE IS INTERNAL MEDICINE. Kinda come along with So good good peers and their practices sort of set the tone for what we do and then then I go. Oh Yeah I was reading about that. I get what he's doing or he or she is doing. There's the practice of that of seeing it in my patient right now and I will lift up that do you guys that are relatively bright but you like this guy should never become a doctor. And they're there with you. They're graduating with you. Whatever the case. But you're like that that that kind of person usually finds their way into a field where they don't have to care you know what I mean. There's fields of medicine like pathology or certain things where you're caretaking. Is You just technician at certain points. You know you just need to do a great job. And that's all they WANNA DO THEY WANNA be return under. They want to be a great knowledge wherever it is they they don't have to. It's better when they care they don't have to care tried. Yes it was yeah. I don't mind those. I'm not those guys are because I need these technicians that can really you know when I hit my prostate disaster guy. What'S COMPLICATION RATE DOWN? Eleven hundred help occasion rate zero ago. Fine let's go. Jet Was that you thousand thirteen diagnosed. Eleven years ago right. Yes so it's thirteen. Yeah so what what happens. I mean that's that's something we we just touch on. You know trying to give the audience a little information here and they probably should know this. But a lot of people don't like you get your prostate checked every year right and it's and by the way is blood enough because a lot of doctors say oh just check your PSA level or not to be but need needed finger in your ass asked Every year after fifty for all men unless you have a first degree relative with prostate cancer which case it is every year after forty and so you recommend the blood and the finger better lead for sure finger. Why is the finger better better than blood is just? It's just Qarara you such a thing as a alert. Psa prostate cancer and they are actually really bad so there is such a thing right and you and you would feel it when he region there you know. I. I hadn't gotten one the magical finger got one last year for the first time and I'm forty eight years forty seven years old. That's that's okay. That's okay anybody with grandfather. My grandfather had it but he got rid of it but yeah he did have it so you could argue. It's really not technically a first bureau but but you could argue. Start at forty but definitely fifty F. colonoscopy had one of those you know everybody said it was that bad like I really didn't feel that bad I took the liquids. I took them all the same time for the most part. I didn't do it the way you probably should. And Yeah I I went pretty hard. It was like liquid fire for a couple hours. The preps are easier now. Nothing or you're out you don't know what's going. Oh my God I remember talking to the dock and the next thing I know is like all right Nancy anything in there now people when they get the polyps is that a concern like when you have pops and took them out. That's that's the concern. Well it changes. How rescreen you and? I'm a big advocate. Once you have all of you need a follow up in one to three years depending on what kind of policies that sort of thing but more than that. I'm a big advocate of genetic screening. Now so there are. There are syndromes of primarily. How your DNA repairs itself right your team. As always making mistakes. The biochemistry of DNA replication so complicated. Of course they're going to be mistakes. And there's a whole system in your in your cells of mistake repairs and some people's repair systems. Aren't that great. So sometimes these these DNA errors get through and that is a cancer or that's a pilot and there are certain genetics that you can test for to see what you're one of those people and I always had a hunch that I was 'cause there's colon cancer my family and my down prostate cancer so I did this thing called color dot com which I recommend for everybody C. O. L. O. R. DOT COM. It's about two hundred bucks. They test for the thirty thirty five most common. Dna sort of uptight like Broccoli Genes will there's about is actually about four hundred things like that but there's thirty thirty five common once and I have not. I have something called Lynch Syndrome an MSA six lynch which puts me at risk for colon cancer and prostate cancer. And so now. I have to get an upper and lower endoscopy every year because my sons had started. There's at twenty five because they had to. Yeah I mean look. It's important just to be on top of it. Look a lot of guys it's always been like. I don't WanNa go to the doctor. I don't WanNa go that. Well then you die pretty much. You don't go to the Doctor. You'RE GONNA die. I have a lot of friends. That don't WanNa go the doctor fine. I feel great. Great is not. The game became his presents. Getting sick prevent the cancer. Pick them up when they're early before they get away You know it's it's about states. Get on your blood pressure medicine. Stay on your question. Do these things it make you listening right that we were supposed to ended said pharmacology and screening else's do that. Well it's also the same thing with going to psychiatrists going to a third that you know a thank God. It's normalizing a little bit where everyone sort of talking about now or more people especially on my show we talk about that and you know I always say I'm not a doctor but you know you should probably go see a therapist by talk to. Somebody knows what they're talking about. What for eleven years you went to therapists for eleven years old. Yeah thing the did. What years were these age of about? Thirty three to forty four something like that. So so I I love an executive over and I can tell you panic attacks and depression by college but I've generalized anxiety. I'm a little on the CD. Spectra and We have triplets and during the early years by. Zaidi was spinning. My WORKAHO ISM was crazy. GonNa Ham I going to support through. I was just I was not then at the age of one. One of our kids needed brain surgery. I guess I spun out like a top. I wasn't aware of it but my wife called me at work. One day I went. Uday doctorate there. I was like. Yeah Yeah because I thought it would help me with my work with drug addicts and stuff are starting to do that. I've gone absolutely should go. It just might. The hair stood up in the back of my neck. Okay Okay you down. Made the call started and it was beyond wonderful. Well you know you really need one person in your life. I always say that you just trust that. Whatever that person says you are for the most part are going to take that advice? Is Susan Your Wife? That seems like it's one person when she tells you something not went certain times good treatment. I know she's serious than she. She's pretty serious. I will take the direction. The kind of therapy I did. Though was not advice oriented at all. It was Turned out I had a leak connection where conceptualize these things? I so so the the primary sort of Problem today that people have is regulating their emotions. Right Golden Affect Regulation and I had a particular issue where I was not strongly connected to my primary emotions so they were sort of vague and I couldn't really feel them so I had to get do do insight oriented deep. What's called emotionally focused therapy to try to connect up those emotions and you essentially do that by sitting with another person in proximity whom you trust just going. I'm feeling whatever it is. And then that person reflects back to you on their face and with their voice a an understanding of your experience which is called a second order representation that you then is sort of a metabolize emotion that you then take back in. So it's primary motion metabolised emotion internalized and identified and connected. So if I say Dr drew you asked me how I feel and I'm feeling I feel sort of like tinguely like almost numb. I feel like I'm anxious. It's in my chest. I feel like I just feel like I'm just I'm just anxious and I don't know why I just feel like I'm ahead of myself and that was me. That's how that's what I deal with. You go no no no no no now will. What's just just tune in like what I get the. You're anxious anxious. What what comes up? What are you feeling what what what else? What else is there? What's on your mind would like would would pops into your head right and then and then following that and so. I've gotten very good at doing that for other people too. Because I've been the object of that and for drug addicts. That is a particularly important thing to be able to do because drug addicts are disconnected from their emotions and and get so last in their disease. They don't know what's real bullshit and they want to know in when somebody else can fear their feelings. It's called fooling felt when I can tune into you know what I can receive. What's really going on with them? It's an important experience that's connected and safe and secure and of course trust is a big issue for Greg inside of US brought to you by express. Vpn We all know that express VPN protects your privacy and security. But there's something you might not know which is even cooler than that you can use. Vpn To unlock movies and shows that are only available in other countries right so all the time on our hands now or you know we're stuck at home what do we do. You know. We're going to run out. Run out of space around the things to watch Netflix. So you know this whole week. I've been using express. Vpn TO WATCH DOCTOR WHO? I'm proud of that. I've been told to wash it and amusing and is pretty darn cool. It simple even I could do it. I just fire up the express. Vpn APP change my location to the UK refresh deflects and that's it expresses. Upn Hides your IP address. 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Iou inside of is brought to you by better. Help online counseling. This is something I I love doing these spots. These are extraordinary times to say the least with everything going on today. I mean the stress anxiousness depression. I was irritable earlier in the podcast All these things better help offers online. Licensed professional counselors who are trained to listen and help so many folks are using better help in fact it's growing so quickly that better help us hiring more therapists. That's how well it's doing better of counselors specialize in many areas relationship trouble anxiety family conflicts depression loss trauma and much. More is weird that I have had all those. I think we all suffer from things. Connect with your counselor in a safe and private online environment. Anything you share is confidential and all you do is you. Fill out a questionnaire to help. Assess your needs and You get matched with the counselor in less than twenty four hours easy to schedule security or phone sessions with your therapist plus exchange unlimited messages. If for any reason you're unhappy with your counselor you can request a new one at anytime. No additional charge professional. Help when you want and wherever you want it get started today. Folks go to better help dot com slash inside. That's better H E L P dot com slash inside. Talk to a therapist online and get help. It's amazing because I look at you and I just see somebody who has their shit together. Somebody always had shift gather. Wow I wish I could emulate. I wish I could be aspire to be a doctor drew. We all Wanna be but then I look and then you you talk about your anxiety your flaws and all these things. Everyone's human and it. If anything it helps knowing that top doctors people that really help other people get the same thing that we do. Of course there are. There are people that are highly narcissistic. That will tell you that feelings don't matter for them and good if they're a surgeon bad if they're a psychiatrist psychologist you know what I'm saying. There's a place for everything but you should always be skeptical. People seem to is. They're not connected to their motions. Emotions don't matter so you went to therapy. Did you had anxiety you took. Did you ever take a Zanex any of those things? It made things worse. I was really bandage in college. I it will give me a bunch of things all bad And I think I was Sir badly mismanaging college that I think is what got me interested in for long while I was you know I love line staff. I was helping adolescence. Young adults in that that I think that interest came to the fact that there was no medical services for adolescents and young adult when I needed it I really needed it and a member. I went down in a sense to these panic. Attacks were cycle psychiatric. And so I went to the mental health services at the college which was in the belltower fascinating early in the BELFRY. And they sent me down to the medical doctor. Which at that time was some retired guy. You know in New England some guy serving his time there. It looks at me he goes. You need to get your act together. Just take some long walks in the woods or something. I'm like a crucible that's GonNa take care of this I'm on. I don't think so. I would happily no that was. It was complete disgusting mismanagement and I always thought. Oh Man I gotTa make sure that this doesn't happen to anybody else so mismanagement like you were doing too many things and you had no kind of structure in a way with those issues thousand depressed. I was having disabling panic attacks and there was pharmacology available at the time. That could have helped me. There was of course. Psychotherapy is and things that could have helped me and to have a a family practitioner and look me. Go Get your act together. Boy was destructive and it was just terrible and then at one therapist who is good and then finally found a good one. Kinda got me through it a bit but it's still struggled for what you just said right. There is very important because you know people looking for a therapist. They think okay. I mean a therapist. I guess I should just stay with him. Thinking oh well therapists are therapists. They're not if you don't like him if you feel uncomfortable. If you don't feel like you probably should look for another therapist correct. We each just like everything else. They each have their strengths talents. And and you was a patient. Don't really know what you need at the beginning. It's hard to tell. Sometimes I didn't know what did it when I was starting out. I would say it's a good bet. Generally is his of general principles. These days trauma is some common that you probably need some trauma informed therapies. So somebody who's got some specialization. Traumas usually helpful and secondly whatever technique they're using does not matter as much as their capacity for deep empathy. So you need to feel them. If that that person must be leaser being focused on you and if you feel that focuses there that's all you need. You know it's weird. I swear I don't know what it was because I've had male therapist for a long time and then last year I have female therapist and for some reason I connect so I can get emotional. I'm like who am I? It's I don't know what it is. I'm not saying that there aren't good. I'm just saying for me having a female presence. I don't maybe you're thinking probably has issues with his mother made but also I think women are better at doing this connecting connect that way we as men we struggled to do it and each of us and that doesn't diminish me the power or the work of any mail there but some of them are extremely good but I think women more easily do this than the rest of us and the maternal figures. They feel like mothers to me when I talk to them. They there's something comfortable me. That was what I didn't. I didn't get what I needed for my home and so a lot of the work was finishing network up. You know you go back to talking about how you wanted to be a voice you. You're quoted here. You said my goal is always to be a part of pop culture and relevant to young people to interact with the People. They hold in high esteem. Yeah the idea was that I get because of my my violent horrible experiences an adolescent. They got to focus them. This was the day of aids to and I was talking to them about this. Is Anthony. Fauci motivated me to go on the radio. You know this. No Oh he was a big player in the AIDS thing and I was working on me. Just deepen the AIDS epidemic and And he was out there. Guy Young doctors. You GOTTA GO. Educate you gotTA Chain behavior they're going GONNA be ten million dead. If we don't change their behavior was out and start to February seriously I ended up. Go on the radio on his own notes. Talking to young people about this. We just had stopped calling. Grids are now calling aids we had the AAC causative agent which at that time we called. Hdl beats three. If you remember yeah ducks not been coined yet. Known was known was talking to young people and it was considered scandalous when I started to do and I thought why we have changed. Behavior are going to get. They're going to get this inspection of we don't so it was really. He was a big part of my motivation. To go in there and be talking about it but the point was time along that I would I? I felt like I was always insert myself into the cultural vehicles. Whatever they might be so I could people dictate young people. I always thought because they're really on the project. They're establishing the trajectory of their life. Some small adjustments can keep it heading towards I honest fear as opposed at landing in the ocean in the and I just was fascinated with that idea. Just was in Gordon thing to do then. I sort of drifted off that into addiction generally And I I sort of saw continue to see that as one of the major problems of our time and that is young people and adults now and still try to use cultural vehicles to make a difference. That's that's the idea. Get get in crawling the stuff. That may be uncomfortable but it makes a difference. Go ahead and do hands like a love line. We live was the original thing but tense like a celebrity rea- yeah which I watched all the time I remember on love line. I remember being a guest in your shows late at night it was doing. I forgot what I was doing but I am asking you. Urinating helps after sex if you if you if you don't WanNa get td and that sure it was the brightest question the world. But I still P after sex is at smart. That's not going to make much of an extra male for women. It's it's smart because they can get your attractive action. So rule hasn't prevent S td. It Prevents Urinary Tract Infections in women. Can't guys get you? Is that Ronald too long with women. During throws a short bacteria gets pushed up into the bladder very easily so women should should relax. I don't need to go to the bathroom. Nevis is not a bad habit. Not a bad habit. I mean cleans out the ARETHA. Maybe you read some irritation right. You know I'm only bringing this up because it was a news only because I I commend you and I find it really amazing. How after the whole Kobe? Nineteen and I know you've heard so much about it. But you know in the beginning when really nobody knew. Anything you know your. Your outlook was was obviously way different than it is. Now you're sort of perception. Who hasn't way different? I gotTa tell you now that we're here. It's not way different. I would I look. I talked to a producer yesterday who was producing this show in Denver that I was on three months ago and I told him I said I feel now exactly the way I did. When are shooting my mouth off on your show. Which is we don't know what's going on. The press needs to shut up. Everyone needs to listen to and the CDC the should be your guiding star but the prestige to shut up because they are going to create a panic and that panic is going to great. God only knows what owners now here. We are the state of California where we overshot in other words. We're some good that the the the Esta THE DISEASE. Rate was about two hundred times less than we predicted. Good Job Maybe. We could have navigated through this. And maybe down by a factor of tender factor of five and not had to have closed everything down the way we did the. Cdc never recommended that a never recommended it. So I'd stand by what I said. Which is the CDC guiding light? If you do more I understand why. The governor in California did more. I feel bad for him. Because that's a tough decision. I iceberg behind him when he made it. I said look. He's got a plan for the worst case scenario. We've his judgment is. We need to shut it all down. Get mercy ships in ear you know. Get thirty thousand ventilators in your his drivers repair for the worst case scenario. I think it's a gross overreaction. I said at the time but I will stand behind him. Because that's that's a hard call. Do Yeah retrospect. It's easy to go in. We were way way over good. We could have done that we we. We lightnings things up now because you know. We showed that okay. We've been flattened the curve and we don't actually know scientifically when people talk about following the science. We actually do not know whether or not lockdown shelter in place is different or has a different effect than wearing a mask and social distancing. People are conflating. The word social distancing social distancing does not include shutting down businesses and and sheltering in place. That's something the government did and okay. It were but it worked said well. Maybe you didn't need to do that. Maybe maybe it'll be just as good. If we wear masks and social distance it may be. I don't know I don't know but it's it's worth a shot and then chase it and make sure we really have enough people. Having the governor's doing this really good. He's got a whole army of people to chase little outbreaks and make sure those. Yeah the import. So what do we obviously don't Oracle? But what do you? What do you think's going to happen in the next couple of months? Is this GONNA go on for months and months and months? The part I didn't know about this virus is is clinically how it affects at risk population. So people over seventy five people with essentially metabolic syndrome hypercholesterolemia hypertension central be up. I've now seen cases at it is a rural. It is awful in until we come up with some treatments for that. I am very concerned about this and ended and the other thing. It is more contagious than the flu is highly contagious. So those were those. Were the two pieces that I have changed my opinion on that. It's it is more contagious. And by the way the day that Tony vouches Anthony. Fauci said it's not the flu. It's more contagious. It's more deadly. That was the opinion and then I saw some cases now. I'm you know. See how how awful it is when it when it's bad man it is just do a so we find some treatments that which I think. We're on the verge of very cautious with this thing. What is it desert is one thing but I think they're going to be some some immune modular story interventions that. We will understand us much better very soon. There may be monoclonal. Antibodies were starting to ramp up on convalescent serum and by way a pitch for everybody give blood. There's all this focus on food. There's lot of food around. We have shortages of blood give blood that saves lives. Well that's not something you hear constantly like you have with all this other stuff going on. I'm here in news and it's changing every day and this and don't do this and this and you don't hear enough give blood your blood man. I all this focus on. We got a feed Rasi look. Obesity is the number one risk factor for this sake. And there's a lot of food. I'm glad people are taking care of the food but the stuff. That's that's focused on what what's really going to save lives in a very intermediate-term medium-term which is led products. If you've been over give convalescent serum if you haven't go give blood you're not gonNA catch by giving blood. Don't worry yeah and what do you think about like hanging out with your friends or maybe a friend or two. If you're wearing masks in your separated his I mean there's a lot of people who look down on things. What do you do at this point because you know people were alone? People want but they want to be respectful. And then there's some of those people those idiots sorry that they are the I'll have to wear a mask and like it says no shoes. No shirt no service. Why can't we had a mask to that equation? We should as we open up the only way. We'RE GOING TO BE OPENING UP SUCCESSFULLY. As if we're diligent with the social distancing in the masks but yet you have a friend over and your particular out of doors and you're wearing a mask and you're better six feet apart. Neither of you're feeling poorly nobody fever. That's probably safer than being in your home Safe food delivery that. We've never compared lockdown that I know of. Maybe somebody can. Just show me the data where it has been compared to my knowledge. Never compared lockdown versus social distancing and wearing a mask. They may be exactly the same. And I'm hoping they are. But in order for us to maintain the mad social distancing we have to do that really diligently so I'm not I'm not in favor of these young. Who's not wearing masks. You've gotta do it. We'RE GONNA end up back. You know who knows how they how they would respond in the second way One of my celebrity friends said I'm not going to give his name. People have no idea how many people Dr drew help for free. That's true I mean helping you helping me right now. This is. He's not river that is not just talking about on the radio for media. I slowly percent of the time. I didn't get paid for what I did treating drug addicts and when I dig. It got data fraction or whatever. The should be paid Sweat is if you WANNA help. Drug addicts does not a lot of available resources. Do you still check in with the guys from the Celebrity Rehab or guys that are going through it or survived and they so call you and help for help a couple of days ago. He's he's a new man and he is inspiring. Oh My god Daniel Ball would who are struggled with and now he's just this great great great guy a lot of Jenny. Kevin is now a social worker in Seattle And married with a baby. I mean she was a porn star when we got her hands on her Steven Adler is doing whatever they're allowed doing very very very well in some passed away of opiate addiction And that's I think people understand now. The opiate addiction is fatal and once they got away from me yes what. They went to their pain. Doctors doctors put him back on the payments. They over Died that's that's you know that's another thing you know. I I dealt with a lot of chronic pain my whole life you know surgeries back surge. In this. I've done everything. You probably can four chronic pain and I'm I could go on and I live my life and you know I don't sit there and constantly complain about it but I have always these issues. I always like you know. I'm always in pain. Never comfortable you know. So what do you say to people who are in chronic pain? Something that they can't they you think there's an answer for everything or sometimes you just going to have to deal with it and that's just it. It's more complicated. That there's a there's two components have paid their mad about it. I get my finger with a hammer by finger hurts but there's another piece that's mediated through. Part of the brain called the insular cortex and the inside is worry. The'll centrally there. How we feel that literally how we feel and the sort of register is the misery component of pain or what we call the effective charge of pay in people with chronic pain. That are other usually people with severe chronic pain or dish regulated because of trauma and their insular CORTEX goes off and one of the unfortunate realities. Is that Orpheus? Make that even a more powerful reaction where it's just now earn for rabbit miserable all the time and gets worse the more the longer you exposed to opiates in addition it in addition to causing more misery you actually develop something called. Hypo Jesusa where? The inexperience of the semantic component is intensified as. Well So. It's the worst possible combination. Opiates are not a good treatment for product page so the the other the the kinds of interventions that do work are more in the sort of neuro biofeedback zone in your multimodality old-fashioned pain management. Like my my uncle was the first president American Academy of Pain Medicine and I used to go. Consult at his pain. Unit which was physical therapist biofeedback psychologists psychotherapists psychiatrists internist just multiple. Modalities each kind of going in and try to adjust this essentially experience and make it more tolerable for people. Because I definitely one that I don't touch touched drugs it acupuncturist. We had all kinds of pressure all kinds and you. It's hard to predict what's going to work for individual And Stanford Right now. I think that's pretty good job there. They're paying program. Who would you call if you were? If you were suffering from chronic pain. You just wanted. Make sure you've covered all the bases the a sure. I went to a comprehensive multidisciplinary pain program. Something like this and you go in there and you tell them everything. You've done everything you're working on the pain. How and all that stuff and they will sort of slowly evaluate you in because for me. I think it's impossible nations like I. How do I get rid of that? All KINDS OF INTERESTING TECHNIQUES. Some of the mindful of his own and all kinds of stuff done everything. I didn't. Amd are. I mean that helped. It didn't help for that. But that's what makes it go away. That's the reality that did nothing makes it go away but it's about making a tolerable and maybe a little inside of US brought to you by fair harbor. You don't WanNa leave 'cause you probably going to see me in a pair of Fair Harbor Swimming Trunks? I don't know how I wish I could take a lie detector test for you folks because I got these ship to me last week and I. I'm not kidding. A haven't taken them off. 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Mesh lining to their makes products for you to enjoy the places you love while protecting those places at the same time. It's so simple. Twenty percent off for everyone listening right now this second head over to Fair Harbor Clothing Dot Com Fair Harbor clothing dot com and use the code inside twenty twenty percent off. That's inside twenty and say goodbye to Mesh lining forever. I'm telling you I mean this. Even if they don't stop being my sponsor for some reason I'm buying this stuff at so much I like inside of you is brought to you by fee eels. F. E. A. L. S. feels de feeling. We all experienced stress. We all have anxiety whether you like to admit it or not. It comes out in different ways. If you're suffering from those things or chronic pain or you have trouble sleeping at least once a week about every night. Personally I You know my story I Yeah back surgeries this and whatnot. Sleep problems anxiety. It goes on and on. But you know. 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You'll save money on every order and you can pause or cancel at any time and listen to this deal You'RE NOT GONNA get much of a better deal. I don't think for CBD CHECK. This out feels has me feel in my best every day and it can help you to become a member today by going to feels dot com slash. I you and you'll get fifty percent off your first order with shipping free shipping fifty percent off your first order with free shipping. Wow that's F. E. A. L. S. dot com slash. Iou To become a member and get fifty percent automatically taken off your first order with free. Shipping feels dot com slash. Iou All right. This is this is just a this has been awesome by the way. I could talk to you for your so easy to talk to. That's why I think unlike a lot of doctors just that you're so personable and you know so much and you've worked so hard and work with so many and celebrities and non celebrities and I love having you here and I've been trying on the show forever because I just think I truly think you're an amazing human being so thank you. So these are this is called. Shit Talkin Rosenbaum. This is for my patrons and a lot of people. They're just asked you questions you don't have to. You know you shorten your answers or whatever but the you'd be quick with at least you can do whatever you want Lisa. What was your experience like the mask singer? Are they really that secretive? God Yes it says you anybody that you have to tell you. Make them sign this very intensive nondisclosure agreement so so I mean just let me tell you you know you start training well before it all goes down and only my wife and my manager publicist. They went they all decide nondisclosures and a were voice. Coach started showing up at my house and one of my sons was living here with us at the time. And I'm going to sing at a dodger game. I'm going to sing the national anthem of just preparing for it and in the law and the way turned out I had vocal a real serious injury. My both accords and I had to get the Rehab and I had all kinds of people were coming through your news. Like what's going on and I go okay sadness I'll tell you you have to sign up so at one son signed up for it when you start production like when you leave your own you wear shields and hoodies and globs and not one speck of skin can show. You can identify your race. You're not allowed to speak until you get out of your car into your trailer and shut the door. And then the papers you can speak to is who a producer who comes in and shuts the door behind them and then you're allowed to speak otherwise nothing you have no idea who's around you. You have no idea. They pay a lot now. If you if use last you get paid pretty well if you'll but if you're if you're like me get kicked off new but you get one you get one day of of Think about it. You have to get these saw. I must see my problem. Was I learned about twenty two Sinatra who glazed dogs and then I put the costume on like Oh my God. It's a Rock Eagle eyed noticing ROCK SONGS HOLY. Shit so we had a shock everything. Find a whole new set of songs Learn them then choreography and fireworks in staging. And it's crazy you get one day of Oriole Graffiti. One dress rehearsal an hour later you say. Were you nervous dying dying and it's it's intense it's superintendents and the costume Kinda carries you. It's weird you should have become whatever these characters are and It was one of the funniest things ever and hats off to that production man all the elements they manage. It's ridiculous and keeping the secrecy at Saint. All Right Angie. Are you tired of Bert? Kreischer and Tom Sawyer. Calling every time. They do a podcast. You think Bert will ever listen to reason. Yes no perfect. Leeann p what question to men and women asked the most when it comes to intimacy historically can I guess Nia premature ejaculation for guys? Well I it's in. That zone is more generally am I normal. Am I normal? And my big enough. Is this riots at my too fast too slow and I am I. Normal is sorted. They worried about their functioning. Women also worried about men which I find ironic With with them how they work. How come I don't understand because forever? We've raised women to believe that the motivational priorities are the same at nineteen or twenty or twenty four. But they're not they're very very different and so it's it's extremely confusing. If you're not realistically assessing one another in teaching people about about these motivational systems. That are going in the brain. All human but are motivational. Systems are very different at that age. Doesn't there's something that someone said where you're like? Yeah that's not normal. No that's not me there. I'm sure I'm sure right. Because everybody has their sexual. What do you call it mishaps or those things where you're like? I couldn't I couldn't I thought it was about have an orgasm and then I couldn't and then I went limp. Does that sound familiar orgasm? And nothing came out. And let's retrograde ejaculation. That comment is not the Senate big deal but it does need to be looked at so this stuff trump saying get looked into rake in. What does Dr Did you think of? The effective quarantine is going to happen. People suffering from addiction. Better or worse. I think what I'm seeing. I think and again this is. The data has yet to come in yet. I think people are switching to haul. I think I'm seeing a really significant upswing of alcohol right now. I never had quite so many calls for people with real out of control. Alcoholism all of a sudden and I noticed that I think the math is down. The gangs are stayed indoors because of fear of of a covert until they're not distributing as aggressively as they were so I think meth is down and I think they're switching to help call at if you grow to the homeless as somebody There's much more alcohol bottles out of the street and the homeless are more irritable and aggressive. Which is again apple while you just when you thought being homeless could be worse. Yeah it's interesting. The homeless actually have a very low incidence of covid very low because they're outdoors is a steady in China when he looked at three hundred eighteen outbreaks of three or more cases of torture cases. Most had three to five cases. Eighty percent were in the home. Thirty four percent were in a in a contained a transportation environments one case of three hundred and eighteen. They average was three to five. One case was out of door and it was a one to one to person. Transmission outdoors is clearly a better environment for people to be in any indoors so again moving outside. If like I said you went out of your friend over set out of doors where I'm ask be six be apart rapidly. Just fine society. Emily asked what advice? Would you give to someone who deals with depression? Every now and then and who may not have the financial benefits of going to a therapist. It depends where you are. I mean there are if you're in Los Angeles. This subject called the Maple Center. That will has excellent therapist and they are free if you can't pay their most in most areas have at least pro services available for Therapy and sometimes you know. Intermittent depression and whatever's going on there may not take a lot of visits kind of tune things up and make a plan of things you can even do on your own after somebody figures out. What's going on so my goodness I mean? Do you go out to dinner and spend fifty bucks. That's all Kosta therapist so I don't understand why you wouldn't do that. I'll tell you from experience. I just know I always say exercise is so important. I mean what would because I just know that I feel better after I do it wrong. Exercise Watson classical music have performed admirably when measured against depressive medication. And I noticed that with this particular outbreak. I've been really depressed this whole time And I what I don't like is being unable to see the future. I don't like that I can't plan or or see a future in. It's very depressing and I turned it around by running outside in the sun. Having the sunlight getting the air getting the exercise made all the difference in world. Is there a vitamin? Is there something away from depression? But is there some kind of vitamin that you just stand by not that you're trying to promote it but something that you should be taking every day? I don't care who you are. This is the whether it's Vitamin D. Or is there something that you just? There's that one I'll tell you what I'm doing and and and I will. I'll qualify each one as to whether it's a just me. Hey It's there's a promotion attached to a we all do this right. Indeed clearly vitamin D should be an answer in the day of Kobe. I I've been a vitamin D fan for quite some time. There are benefits to get your vitamin D levels well beyond how many milligrams I take about five thousand six thousand a day summer June five and ten but even that it's hard to get it up. Sometimes I take a multivitamin not because of the multivitamin because it has minerals and I do. I'm a big Fan of maintain. We don't get a lot of minerals in our diet anytime a fan of maintaining minerals. I do that. I'm not saying you should do Vitamin D. Listen to what I do you think about it for yourself The studies on people to take multivitamin show fairly consistently that people take multivitamins die. Ah for people who don't take multivitamins. That's the that's the science do with what you would do with you will of that I take. I take vitamin C Mostly because I'm on sort of a kind of Akito Diet and so I. I don't get a lot of vitamin C. Start Take Vitamin C I take I take this project. This product true Naijun. I do promotion for them but I eighteen months ago was convinced that any. D- metabolism is an important part of aging. It's also something helpful and people coming off drugs and alcohol I'll get any infusions and destroy. Naijun enhances a deep tablets in. May May Science looks like it may reduce cell. Senescence meaning might affect aging. So I take that. Every day I'm persuaded also Samantha. Right that whatever survey says that to me. I go car one exception. I wonder if it is maybe let's see. I'm leaving something out the fish around. You GotTa make a decision about this. There's controversy around that you know what combination you want. But I do take. I take fish oil. What about like in terms of inflammation with eating a lot of red meat? And is there a lot of truth to that? Know what there's truth to is. In fact that whole thing has been really shot down. I refer you to the work of Kate. Shanahan Interviewer shoot come in. Okay good. How Chemistry is a family practitioner? She She Intel. You really important things about nutrition. The things we can. No we don't know much really the things we do now but the ones that we also know is that central. Obesity is inflammatory. And one of the things that we're learning about Govan is if you have fat across your abdomen. You are at one of these people that may get cited kind of storm and my patients that had anti phospholipids syndrome insulin. Resistant Central. Obesity did very poorly with cove. So there is all in other words. My hypothesis is they were already inflamed because of this inflammatory or again we call adipose across the central part of their body. That does seem to be true. Cove is reinforcing. That fact now meet is not the mediator of that. How much red meat should I have a arctic? Kate sought to get a not. I'm not a nutritionist. This is just what I do. I'm I believe at this point in my life that the carbohydrate story is a much more serious story particularly for people with Metabolic Syndrome like myself and and again all the people that did poorly covid too many carbohydrates the carbohydrate. Problem Insulin Resistance. I think that may be the major story here and not meet. Wow this has been fantastic. You know so. Let me just where we could find you and listen to you because you're always falls so much knowledge. The Dr Drew podcast correct. It's not a website Andrea Dot COM dot com. Where we decided to go over. What's going on with the Kobe? Thing and answer your questions. On Sundays we do a call in show with guests And then I do an adamant it will show that girl. How's that being back with them? We've been doing it for seven years. I think or eight years so really been out of my life every flip out on each other as overtime. We did shut the fuck up at him. On not late I would say what is it that bothers you. What is it that fires you up when he says? So what is it? Is it the cynicism or is it what is it? I told him he goes he goes driving. He was asking me to be critical of him. And I said Adam you have a blind spot around aggression. He can be very aggressive. Sometimes the point where you can't respond because he's so aggressive and then he gets mad at you for not responding so I don't like bind I I. I do the aggression. He'll he'll just become extremely aggressive You KINDA FLEAS. And this is something that just approach. I mean God. It's pretty mild mannered. I mean I'm sure you lose your shed have you you have. I haven't seen your shed no not publicly. Probably last ship was about three years ago and I just got on Akito Diet and you can get kind of aggressive. I think from the dire and I went and somebody was trying to get me to do something that I didn't think was right and I really lost it on her shoes. A friend of mine and I hung up to call back and go home. I am so sorry I had to like an apology. Tour was not not right. Not Me Monroe human. Look thank you. I can't thank you enough for this. Has BEEN A blast? I really I really interview doctors so I sort of knew year but I was like you know I've been in his shows and this and that but know I just once we got talking. You're so easy to talk to and I think that's that's just that's a rarity that's a great quality having. I WanNa thank you for allowing me to be inside of you. That's why it's easy for me. So there you go all right well thank you again and Open invitation Amazed by the folks are GonNa just love this. They've been do something. Went once more clarity cows with this. Kobe thing maybe we should update update. Our priors they say I would love it. I would love it. I am deeply humbled from this whole thing is to check my humility. Always the humble that you are so thank you and I had. That's hit really weird because when you're zooming there's always that moment where you're like all right goodbye and then you just sit there for three seconds while you're saying okay. Shouldn't there be code word. Like all right. Just turn the other way. Don't look at out zoom out. Wait I'm gonNA switch you off and I'm going to go. I appreciate you have be on the show and hopefully will you be Jason. Go Out and get a get a bourbon somewhere or something. I'd love that Dr Drew. I want to thank my My my guest Dr Drew. Who's fantastic? Hopefully you guys got something out of it. Let me know hello at inside of you. Podcast DOT com if you have any thoughts or if you have any comments I try to look at them as much as possible Also the online store inside of you store we have Inside of you online store Black hoodies inside my face on it. Oh Boy Black New blackshirts with my face on it and grey and yellow that are really dope so three new shirts and thanks to brandon easy and They're really amazing. I think you'll like them. And they're selling people really like that's cool. I WanNa say thank you again to My inside you patrons I do it. All the time You know I love you and I appreciate you. What a fantastic community if you WANNA join Patriot you podcast and the other patron which is brand new. It's only About two weeks old. Is the John Heater? Michael Rosenbaum patron. It's only on Patriot. And it's a horror movie Patriots. It's where have all the good harm of he's gone so join us on that? There's some really great tears and things and John's very personable and amazing and we have a great time early in the game. Were or evolving. We have a new system of rating movies. It's the rose and bomb rating so it's There's a rose one. Three roses three roses being great. Or if it's a bomb Rosenbaum then it gets right in the middle. Is a heater a heater a baseball fan? You know it's a heater right down the middle. It's neither here nor air. It's not good. It's not that I don't care it's the heater so join us on that too. So thank you real quick shout out to all the patrons top tier patrons here you go and I love that you stick around with me and hang out. I think you're GONNA you're gonNA ditch me. Which is understandable. You know who you are Nancy D. Mary be blee. S Trish F. Sarah Yukiko was fun talking. Yukiko last week Jili. Brian H Brian. Many of these people. I noticed patrons on both the horror patron and the inside you unbelievable unbelievable Lauren. G Nico P Barry L. Angelina G Jerry. W KEVIN ARE EMILY K. Bobby Robert I wanNA say your last name. Because they know them all now. Jason W Kristin K. Andruzzi Alison L. Jason Deora John Sean. John Sean. P tron w Sean Sorry Shawn W. Joshua D Emily S. C. J. P. rocks Raccoon Samantha. Am Hamza be Jennifer. N Stacey be carly t Vanessa in the sky. Ream JENNIFER S. Janelle be Chanel are as well many. Neil W Tabitha to seventy two Kimberley e Melissa See Melissa see Mike e Jake M Mercer Catherine M Jackass Jackass. I love you. Jack Carly Asks Judit Remera Chris F Sarah F Chad W Leeann Darla W Jackie Rodrigue go s ration- Rachel in seven seven rashawn seven seven. But I continue to measure name. Travis be Ray Maya P welcome. Megan de de Mario Tina J. Jennifer see Mattie ask and tiffany. I'm blessed I'm blessed gras blast. Okay I'm GonNa read some Fan Mail now this one's from Katie and It's quick and to the point. I really enjoy your podcasts. Lost my husband just over eight months ago. Sorry everyday has a new meaning he we. It wasn't good. I HAVE WAY MORE TO SAY. Just fucking late now up here in. Bc. Thank you for addressing some hard essential issues. We all face day in and day out. I appreciate all of your content. It gives me hope. You know it's funny. It's like sometimes I read these and I could feel what she sang. She didn't say a time. She said. Enough and Katie. You know I'm it's so hard not to say it's hard to find something creative to say different. Say other than I'm sorry and I I really am sorry and I want you to stay strong. I just want you to give yourself a break and I want you to find a way to enjoy life and as I said before. I'm not the smartest guy in the world but as far as we know we only get one so tomorrow's a new day we've got to get out of bed you know. We got to go for a walk. We gotTA figure it out. We'll figure it out Katie. Thank you for your kind letter. Thank you again Thank you to all the patrons. Thank you for joining me on my instagram lives. Stage it tomorrow six. Pm Pacific Time. It's me and Rob Danson. We're play covers coup- couple of color covers we're GONNA play a couple of covers or Play maybe a few left Laurel songs maybe originally to we'll see what happens is going. GonNa be fond. There'd be prizes and reminding you guys just to be healthy data trouble help your fellow man. Take it easy on yourselves. you're all special really and And Family View Senate to hello at inside of you. Podcast DOT COM and try to get to it. I mean you can keep them short or as long as you want. I like short and quickly another shat out to just The the charities that I love Ronald McDonald House of Los Angeles. The Animal Rescue Mission. Echoes of hope for Foster Youth. And that about wraps it up. Thank you guys so much for listening and thank you for him to be inside you.

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Dr. Jud

Dr. Drew Podcast

1:01:53 hr | 1 year ago

Dr. Jud

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Welcome Dr Jeff Brewer today. <hes> the book is called the craving mind from cigarettes to smartphones to lob why we get hooked and how we can break bad habits an APP unwinding winding anxiety the <hes> again Chris. The book is a very Obama's unusual places in the eating APP is called eat right now he right now also at APP store and Google play and a new study found it to be the unwinding anxiety. I guess to be one of the two most effective APPs in this category. Yeah that's awesome. What's what's on that APP? It's basically way to help. People understand their minds in how they get caught up in habitual patterns of anxiety and is sort of a C._B._T.. In your hand kind of thing like a Nazi B._T.. It's it's more mindfulness training in mindfulness yeah excellent and how's how's it differ from the some of these other abssador sort of meditative and that sort of thing it's based on science. That's quite starts. We we spent twenty years doing the research figure out what it is about. How reminds work in the other piece that we found there have been about fifty years where folks have been really focusing on willpower as a way to change behaviors from everything in the truth is that willpower more myth and muscle and civil really diving in through the neural mechanism peace and how does brain actually work and how can we target that specifically in mindfulness seems to be one of the effective against can help people understand what they're going to get from the APP? What's makes a different different from the meditative APP? If people into gravitating for right so we <hes> we give people step-by-step training ten minutes a day that really helps them understand their own minds <hes> from a from direct experiential perspective and then take practices says that they build right into their everyday live so it's not like hey if you're anxious it down and meditate it's about hey if you're anxious. Let's really dig into that understand where it is and then <hes> then be able to work with it in that moment is it is it's sort of like a is if it's is it a practice a habit of the way it was at your voice coming back to them. It's well we use videos and in the moment exercises to really train them that in terms of how their minds working example of I'm anxious right now. What will I sort of exercise? Be Yeah well in day. One we start with just helping you understand your mind. I think of this is like step one is can you see you know what triggers anxiety. What are the habitual patterns earns you go to a lot of people go to worry so they're trying to you know their mind is trying to getting control and then look at what's the what's the result of that worry and that behavior result relationships really important because that's what drives habitual behavior? It's not actually the behavior itself the reinforce yeah yeah and so if we want to change behavior we don't go at the behavior itself. We look at three enforcers and awareness can actually help us e how unrein forcing these old behaviors actually are like worry doesn't actually fix much right no right in fact <hes> would would occurs to me. Is that phobias sort of going to that same mode to right and it's it's a funny I had a very conscious experience with fear of flying myself where I flew once on somebody's but he's playing we were it was so beautiful like had no anxiety and it was then I had a conscious experience of Oh. I could do this without anxiety and it was gone. I it was it was like but I had experience it. They'll burst you totally have to express it and that's that's that's the other piece where the mindfulness comes in and it helps us bring in that direct experience where we can see like with anxiety in particular. We're so identified with those thoughts. We can't imagine that we are anything different. You know for example early pilot test of our program who wrote wrote me an email saying I'm so identified with my anxiety feel like it is edge deeply etched in my bones and what they can start to realize these are thoughts. These are physical sensations associated with this taking these things personally and that we don't have to take them. I was that person saying that the it's part of their personality and they didn't they felt they were going to change too much or something. I know they felt like they didn't see away out that it was so much embedded in who they were and the Lo and behold we can find a way out we've had people be able to overcome full blown panic attacks seeing that these urge physical those go by other question was panic fit into this as well exactly it absolutely does and we know panic attacks can be problematic but panic nick disorder is when we start worrying about having our next panic Italia been there panic when I was in college and was mistreated completely and then I ended up having very high generalized anxiety because I was in fear of the next panicked residency training good time absolutely so fun and then the eating eating the eat right now yeah same principles where we learn to eat because we're or stress not because we're hungry <hes> these old you know these ancient brain mechanisms think of it as caveman brain which was there to help us survive help us remember where food is now in modern day when everybody has a refrigerator and food delivery <hes>. We've learn to start to eat when we're stress learn to eat when we're bored. We've learned to eat when we're lonely and so that habit loop get set up that just as really hard to break so we can help people pay attention and see well what will actually get from overeating. What do I get from eating when I'm stressed? What when I get from eating junk food is compared to healthy food that we can start to break that cause and effect relationship when our brain starts to see how unrewarding that is and then we also bring in what I think of as the bigger better offer of of awareness of curiosity of mindfulness itself to explain that last part so there's a part of our brain called the orbital frontal cortex that actually stores and in determines this hierarchy of reward value so for example you know if I- Broccoli versus milk chocolate my brain's rain's GonNa say okay milk chocolate and then it for me dark chocolate definitely high up on the hierarchy so if given a choice milk chocolate dark chocolate it's going to eat dark chocolate and we can do the same thing? We're helping it see okay. What if I overeat versus just eat the right amount? What is that like can hierarchy starts to develop when we pay attention and C. O.? Overeating doesn't feel as good as actually stopping when I'm full. If you become conscious of what you're doing totally we have to become consciousness Yuki. It's the orbital frontal the conscious conscious generating piece or is it the valence generating. It's more the reward piece so it saying okay that's worth X.. Number of points versus wise worth who south sort of like a deeper struck they migdal or something doing that yeah. It's I mean they're all they're all related but this one is seemed to be most consistently <hes> associated with reward value itself just a total sidebar. I got preoccupy lately with the insular cortex yeah because it really to me deep learning when coming into focus both literature and I guess in my own mind about it is that that's the zone that gives you the feeling of feeling yeah what it's almost the quality. It's like what it's like or are in end the insular cortex right in particular people have been zooming in on what's described as intercept of awareness as an example feel like feel and they're they're connecting it to the spotless lamb at this time and stuff but I feel like this a big story to be told there. No there is a big start. It'd be told on a number of France at looking at this related to mindfulness practice. There've been number of studies showing that the insular CORTEX is more activated when people are especially the Post Yuriy okay so we had tell. It's got to polls to it. They're different in the middle is different than the poll yeah but but it is in a way it's kind of weirdly constructed like the Monkey lous on our on our motor and century courtesies right. That's the way it's described kind of enshrined him. Yeah so the did post your insulin seems to be associated with more just raw in terms of awareness holistic kind of my gut whatever yeah totally and as you march toward the front or toward the anterior insulin this is where we start relating to those sensations nations so we bring in I'm feeling yeah exactly and how does this relate to previous feelings is this good is this bad and all that and it's structurally kind of near the orbital frontal system isn't it. It's it's in the same area because I was felt like or frontal broaden the outside world into some of those interests of experiences it is certainly across rate with regard all of this you know the literal translation of that is island so it's kind of this island between these different loaves of the brain so interesting yeah totally that that's a future right isn't isn't it really is one to understand this okay so but but your focus is is I it's mindfulness but it's also on breaking reinforces right. Isn't it yeah those go. Oh hand in hand so if you think of how reinforcement learning works this caveman brain of ours needs basically just three basic elements. Let's drill in a metal but you mean the reward system yeah yeah. The rewards isn't from a behavioral standpoint. We need a trigger a behavior in a reward so seafood you eat the food. That's the behavior then you get this dopamine signal to your brain that says remember what you ate more. You found it so it's actually set up. Reinforcement learning is set up to help us remember where food is same is true for Avoiding Danger University the danger you run one way and then the reward is you don't get eaten. Are you explicitly bringing memory in here. Is that what you mean by remember well. It's as you mean just sort of know does a faint sense. That's rewarding. I guess that's memory. There is the the more explicit it is the more quickly we learn things so the more we lineup specific behavior with a certain result or reward the more likely our brain is to say okay do that again or don't do that again so yeah very explicit in terms of causing effect okay and that's actually what drives behavior savior you're. There's this idea that if I'd WANNA change behavior I focus on the behavior I think that's where a lot of cognitive therapies and things like that focused but if you look at reinforcement learning reward based based on reward behavior itself so we focus on the reward award and this is where mindfulness comes in is you can start to help us e very very clearly. What did I just do in what's the actual result in when we bring awareness in we can are orbital? Frontal cortex gets accurate in updated information that says okay. This is rewarding or this. Isn't I'll give you an example <hes> in our smoking firms. We did a study where we've got five times. quit rates of gold standard treatment. We're like okay what's going on here and we found that if if we bring people in have them pay attention as they smoke they realized is that smoking actually doesn't taste very good right and so that reward valued drops. We had a guy that focus on taste only or whatever oh everything tastes smell <hes> feeling in their lungs you know a lot of described that there's this burning feeling which they it kind of convert into a reinforce or some some people well. They're not paying attention and so the reinforcing quality is that they're dopamine is there dopamine receptors or basically screaming for a nicotine to say hey tickle tickle tickle me and so you know that piece supersedes the actual direct experience and so they get that government hitting their brain says don't worry about this other stuff through that do that to give a cocaine. Yes it is very much like is it. The shell of the nucleus accumbens where this is all going on or is at some other region there depends on if you're talking mouser man in mice we talk about the shell in the core of accumbens those the difference tell me more well. It's in humans. The anatomies more related to things like the nucleus accumbens the Pew. Tamen the <hes> and others like anterior and and post ear so it's a different it's not a shell so much as a enter to post your configuration yeah which is interesting sort of I guess that's overseeing more and more of as we get to know the brain right enter poster it does that correlate with some sort of evolutionary progress. You know that's above my pay grade right yeah. The bottom line is probably some weight yeah and so is there a particular region. There were just for listening newcomb's I think of as the final pathway and reward sites I call it the do it again. Part of the Brain Yeah Vertebrae is I'm not because people always go. Oh you get this pleasurable response. I'm not sure you feel anything with the Duke has come into trigger except do that again. I'm so glad you say that because every there's this myth the dope dope. I don't think I don't think it's there's a unless there's an opioid component. It doesn't really feel that good so there are opioid receptors in the nucleus as accumbens but when somebody takes cocaine for example my patients described as all the time they're not talking about pleasure. They're talking about their their feeling restless. They're feeling on edge. They're feeling driven in often. They're feeling paranoid. Yeah well. Where's the pleasure in and the worst and they know intellectually? They're going to get psychotic and yet they don't stop until they are completely psychotic yeah they can't. They can't yet because the do it again. It's the best example I know of this reward thing. We're talking about yeah so I think ain't crack particularly yeah they just just start and goes until the end well crack is interesting because you're our lungs or this amazing delivery vehicle for drugs such a huge surface area yeah so you can get this huge spike and it goes well. Forget the blood not just the blood levels but there's no pass through it goes directly from the lungs to your brain. It has one second hail brain. That's it you know it's not going anywhere else and and thus it has these extra physiological effects can you with these mindful is mindfulness the right word for this what you do yes okay are these because it feels like I get where you would call it mindful because it is bringing to mind literally nothing but it has a different connotation because mindfulness has a whole history yeah so we can actually simplify it by saying well. What are what are we actually talking about? We can talk about awareness bringing awareness in a way that we're not biased so we're not saying oh I'm aware of that in that sucks are that's great. We're just bringing awareness and really asking well how rewarding these Marley and can crack be affected with this awareness stuff are for studies were done without going cocaine. Dependence found that might is as good as gold standard treatment of crack most of the folks in that study were addicted to crack cocaine and and then how do you keep them over once they get there so that's another interesting piece so two pieces of this orbital frontal cortex one it stores reward value so if we can help it see something isn't very rewarding like smoking overeating or being caught up in in a worry loop that roared value drops in opens up the door for some for that bigger better offer we can bring in that bigger butter offer for through curious awareness itself so if people really check in what feels better craving or curiosity curiosity feels better so we can actually use curiosity as a way to replace that craving. That's says do this again. Do this gin with Oh. What is that craving actually feel? I can't conflict the valence right in that moment and help people not only be with cravings and ride them out but also realize they actually have something inherent in them right. You know that's always available. That actually really feels pretty. Good does the interpersonal figure into that because that's seems like again. The orbital frontal can access some of those sorts of interpersonal regulators. At least what do you mean by interpersonal another just having having been available. Oh Yeah I think connection is actually critical. That's kind of the word that I always thought the orbital frontal really helped us with connection or gave us connection. I don't know if we know exactly certainly at least I don't know all of the nuances of that interpersonal interpersonal many levels yeah. I think a lot of it has been reworked. There was no mirror neuron hypothesis that hasn't been replicated very well and so I think people are really revisiting that to see what's going on but one thing we do know if you think of craving this contracted closed down state. When we're curious there were more open where we're expanded and when we're connected with others we also feel that expanded reality of experience in the expansion versus contraction expansion feels better the came from we would use craving living in a motivator to make the connection <hes> yes because I would always 'cause I the patients Rita that worse with with the ones without cravings because they thought they were fine and they weren't motivated to make the connection? The craving was like I am going to use if I don't do something here's what you do they do it there. They can regulate the cravings then that's a really nice way to channel that that energy from the yeah that's why when the whole addiction field started measuring cravings. I you guys not invents what you're going to do with it. Yeah Yeah and I think people think oh if we can just delete the craving is I know you're actually people yeah. Oh my God that's staying sober. Part is is always the heart well not always but his key problem yeah so if people become less enchanted. Let's say with these old behaviors. They're less likely to relapse to them. This is where memory comes back in. I don't know if any of your patients one of my patients taught me this term play the tape forward where he would say say you know filled recovery saying yeah yes when they'd say oh what was it tape played out yeah so this guy he was. He was struggling with alcohol use disorder so he'd be thinking well. If I have this drink when I'm going to have another drink and then I have another and then moving into there's frontal. If it's too soon early in their sobriety that frontal function isn't there can't play it out yeah they can't so that's where we can actually step into that process in terms of well directly played out right now like what's it feel like now they have that strong cravings and can we actually you know in this moment work with that craving right there. Take that Energy and subvert the dominant paradigm with curiosity itself. What are you you want to pick your brand new this? It just feels like we have a lot of work to do on the autonomic nervous system we really. We'd really don't know how it's organized really yet. We don't I certainly don't we don't have the Paris island something in medical. Just he's weird where I wasn't learned. I didn't learn about the Afrin component of the of the Vegas. I didn't know anything about that till ten years ago and that's eighty percent of the damn nerve is coming out out of the body to our brain yeah and how about this whole enteric nervous system this second brain we probably have more than the sound brain four or five of the baby and why is sympathetic system constructed the way it is. Why is it along with those nuclear on the spinal? Why why is it like that? Oh well you can you can see all the way the professors as well. That's what they're processing the EX. You know the sympathetic output yeah it exists. Why does it exist like that? They just said exist because it exists and I don't I don't understand that I think we need to understand why it exists like that and then what the hell's going on over our stomach and over our chest and we have no idea we know kind of what goes on in the brain with a little bit kind of but we're pretty brain centric gay yeah right get ready to turn out for the dance room on podcast just one coin renowned veteran dancers and Choreographers Heather Morris from Glee and Eva flav as they share their onstage stories chat with guests and recap all your favorite T._v.. Dance shows download new episodes of the dance room every week on Apple podcast and podcast one blue dot com everybody. This offers men a well. 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When you get your true cash offer you head under the TRUECAR certified dealer and drive off with your new car well it could be a used cars as well don't forget truecar has new and use so when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car checkout true car today? Do you think there's this my big question is there's a receptive Jeff tive element in our prefer automatic system in our body because sometimes it feels like it yeah well where did that saying gut feeling come from well but the gut but my question is for sure it got fee but but is the gut receiving something from the outside Cyberworld or is it the brain somehow reflecting in the gut which is I think how we've always thought about it. I thought the something weirdly receptive in our body yeah I think we're again pretty brain centric jar and I think that the two are absolutely related to so each other and you know there's this back to the interests of awareness piece. There's a whole lot that we're not actually paying attention to that has to do with us really sensing stuff in our body we privilege vision actually way more than anything else yeah and we're missing out on so much of all these other processes in abilities to really pay attention and receive information but we're just not paying attention. You nicely put in their receive information. I don't think most academics have faith that there's anything received other than our bodily function which is sort of embedded in the world and it's a punch us in the stomach. We'd have a feeling but I don't think they the rest of it that in more intuitive initiative element of this faith in that out there yet well you know to really be assigned as we have to be being wrong yeah yeah in in you make much of right brain left Bain sorts of functional differences. Now I mean there's some clear wins like language switch and things like that but I think some of the others that people got really excited about <hes> have not you know stood the test of time I think the dichotomy around zooming in versus having this holistic view is probably the one that's spin the born the test of time most in terms of right and left brain still fill hold that right is more holistic and left more segmented or whatever <hes> what what is your research. What do you preoccupied with? We're really we've been we spent twenty years really trying to understand how habits form and then we've spent the last ten years really trying to zoom in on how we can very very specifically target those again to inhabit things things out inhabit things and move beyond the willpower myth. Is there a I'm sure we can go. This doctor Judd Dot Com. Yes the R. J. U._D.. Dot Com is there a world where we start to focus on good good habits. I mean Aristotle pointed that out thousands of years ago that character is about repetitive habits do. Are you involved with that at all that sort of interest me these days yeah you know if we really understand the brain and if we really understand our habits were this knowledge can generalize and this is actually what we see with a lot of folks are in our programs whether it's our eating in our eat right now programmer unwinding anxiety program even in our craving equip program for smoking. We're seeing that people are really <hes> they get how their mind works and they see okay. I can own let go of his old habit but they start to see things like connection. Kindness generosity actually feel good in themselves and this is where are you know the aristotle notion of of character back then they also talked about you die Monia <hes> which is this this piece and equanimity that comes with simply being truly connected in not <hes> not caught up in our own personal view of the world and we can see you know when when I'm when we're totally into having a relationship or really just even having a good connection through a conversation it feels great but if we don't don't know how that works. We're just GONNA be like well. That was fine. How did I do that but if we say okay well? Let's line this up. What did you just do what was the result of what you did and we can help people really zoom in on was there a closed quality or an open equality and that close quality which lines up with craving which lines up with disconnection rumination anything when we're regretting the path worrying about the future all that stuff leads to this close down quality of experience we can people see what leads to that so that there they get less excited to do that and then they stopped doing those things and we can also help them see the opposite so when they're connected with somebody when actually put down their phone and have a conversation with somebody well I think we can actually hack that we can actually tap into that process in help? People see that much more clearly and then they're going to naturally brain is just going to naturally inclined in that direction because feels better the this this he donald versus you demonic happiness is sort of so we've lost. Who'd lost track in this country? What happens is yeah and I think we can get it back? I absolutely think we can get it back. You know whether it's with with these APPs his way to give people a tangible way to do this and it's really interesting. I was in my clinic. It's like why can help one person I can off a couple of folks but then we really wanted to step back and say how can we help people on a population level and one thing I realized was that people don't learn to stress heat in my office. They don't learn to smoke in my office so could actually take my office to them and that's when we started looking at developing digital therapeutics database and you have studies now showing the efficacy of these the APPs yeah are eat right now. Program we published a two thousand seventeen study showing that we got forty percent reduction Shannon craving related eating. We got we did a study with anxious physicians. Welcome was one of the easiest studies art yeah some of the surgeon in denial right <hes> close to a sixty percent reduction in Gad seven scores. He's generalizing disorder seven prisoners and what time three months wow yeah yeah we just finished in neuro imaging study with are craving equip program where we could scan people's Dell's brains at baseline who are trying to quit smoking randomized them to get our craven equip program or the National Cancer Institute's APP scan them a month later and find that mindfulness training directly change their brain mechanisms which directly led to clinical outcomes in terms of reduction smoking nothing in the control group so insecurity generally for sure and addiction and these kinds of behaviors one of my grave concerns is the timeline of research amid never goes more than about six months. I mean rarely do you have stuff that come comeback three five years you planning anything like that to see where they are. Those studies are pretty hard to do so a lot of a lot just assume lost a follow up his using. That's the one thing they never do in research. There's a loss to follow. Relapse have guaranteed most host with lots of folks that is the case in a lot of research is moving in that direction where that very conservative way to look at the research with smoking in particular <hes> people have found that six months equals a year equals two years and says smoking if somebody's quit and with eating for example sample about twelve months is a pretty good indicator of somebody's GonNa keep the weight off are you. Are you sharing some your stuff with some of the other big leaders addiction field like John Kelly and I'm freezing those guys are the interested all this the Don Kelly and particularly speaking at a conference together a little while ago. I'm in it's really interesting to see the connection between twelve steps programs for example. Some some of this stuff is very very similar. It's not as explicit so it well. That's such patients may not be as motivated to follow it that being said because it may not have they made it deeper understanding why that stuff's being asked to them yeah. I think this is where mindfulness can actually work pretty well with some of these programs like I or step is i. I don't have control well. We need this. Look just look at any diet program. That says you've failed willpower versus it failing you you know so the more we surrender in let go of that the more we can actually start to step back and say well how it is my brain everything yeah and and the addicts are afraid to surrender or that are they're using doesn't want them to yet. I mean the motivational state there in WHO's not afraid of surrender. We have to actually open up and be vulnerable so it's a it's a natural protective active mechanism that we have to work with. Do you have any tips for people through that. I think a lot of people talk about hitting rock bottom and they think they're easy but that's where they're like. Well everything else failed so once and I don't think we needed. We need to absolutely hit rock-bottom for that but one way to help people start to see this is just in moment in their daily lives. Where is it? Where's a moment where I've resisted something whereas a moment where I've really put up a wall and can I looked at sea is that actually making things worse or better and not then as they start to one another minds work then they can see how that generalizes to these other pieces where it's like? Wow you know forcing. Things didn't help here. It didn't help here didn't help here wait a minute. I see a pattern and then they actually open to seeing Oh. Maybe there's a different way. I think a lot of people do see B._T.. Kind of this way and addiction setting they kind of look at the same stuff I don't they know that what they're doing but yeah. It's an interesting piece they they are intuitively moving in that direction and I love to see you know C._b.. teed there's a lot of this piece. Catch it. Check it change it well prefrontal CORTEX which is Weird C._p._T.. Seems to be working is the weakest part of our brain from an evolutionary perspective and so it's we can't really rely on that piece to help us win where stressed or more anxious or when all these things the precipitate relapse so the peace there is to say can we actually step back and instead head of trying to change something really tapping and let our brain change at for us well. My instinct has always been that that is able to happen because of the connection that they get cvt and it may maybe just the empathic atonement and that's more impactful than the actual well people have shown that that's really really important as well and I think we can also have tim it with ourselves. You know 'cause we're often. We distance ourselves from ourselves. We go to these things to numb ourselves not feel our bodies as you know live short distance from our body so to speak and that's actually where some of these awareness practices can help as well does. Trauma get managed through all this stuff to or there's a lot of work being done with mindfulness in trauma comment foreign on mindfulness people well as you know a lot of people start using because of trauma has so common yeah <hes> and does that interest you that area researchers at it's absolutely interesting. I think it's a article piece to look out yeah I don't. I just think that it's so common right now are we are we in a epidemic of this or is it always been common too humid. I think figured out yeah my sense is that people are just reporting and looking more. You know it's living longer with it. Probably yes yeah yeah. I'm people I imagine trauma in the past. Oh I've had a question for you. I don't know if you're comes into your stuff at all but I've always been wondering about repetition. Traumatic reenactments that there's this uncanny thing thing that people do they into me. The reenactments are usually based on attraction. There motivational states more than anything people just people are listening. If you had and abusive alcoholic father you might find yourself magically attracted to abusive alcoholic man if you're a woman or vice versa man and you think if we from evolutionary sport important point of view we would do the opposite we'd avoid the guys the particular that person traumatized as we'd avoid that but we don't were actually three and it's not like and people always go. Oh it's because it's familiar that that is a flimsy that is a flimsy explanation especially when attraction is linked into it they can spot these people across the room at are drawn to them. Yeah Yeah Yeah let's dive into the brain is actually a prediction machine. It is trying to predict the future and then somebody i. It's something really say that that's what they think. Memory is that memory is in sort of projecting forward by kind of encoding the past yeah absolutely yeah so the future is totally dependent on memory without memory. It's hard to it's hard to make any any sense in predictions for the future so our brains are doing their best to help us have a stable relationship with the future saying I know exactly what's going to happen and and they would they would prefer certainty over something that is quote unquote better yeah and so the brain's going to say okay. I know exactly how this is going to go and there's this quality of reinforcement that says I would rather know how it goes then not know how it goes but I would rather I would actually more explicitly. I want this because there's a motivation to it. I want that again and and there's an it's almost like there's a map. There's some sort of mapping that were sort sort of stepping in to make sense now seem more about that. I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about really. It's almost like much the way we're saying that encoded memories away of predicting the future is like there there is with that abusive Alcoholic Dogfather is there is a whole story narrative mapping almost of what's coming with that that I want that and it may be attached to something we call love or whatever that is if you're ready to tackle that yeah that that sort of that's what we want. Is that again but it's interesting so let's go there with you love. There's been a fair amount of research now where we can actually disentangle romantic love from stable <hes> more like you'd Daimona route so that's interesting that right isn't it later phases of love some the the work. That's most consistently been found is around so nucleus accumbens get gets activated do that again right yeah. Maybe the whole thing just do that again well well. I think there's more nuance to so there. Some folks have found that actually there's a default more network this self-referential network that is involved in terms of not only early stage romantic love but also in obsessive love so so even in the default mode network yet say it's a network involved in self-referential processing. Basically you know when we're lost in the past one. We're worried about the future when we're craving drugs when word when we're ruminating when we're per separating basically anytime we get caught up dinner experience as it relates to me that network gets activated ear based I wouldn't it's it can be related to fair so for example fear leads to this contraction yes right and so that contracted quality quality. We've actually mount that in my lab that contracted quality activates the post your cingulate cortex one of the main hubs Default Mon network interestingly. We've found that same brain region gets quiet inexperienced meditators because it gets quiet when people are being curious for example. I talked to Antonio Damasio and he said that's what's most thoroughly knocked out during dement Alzheimer's Dementia Yeah I know it's this paradox. The cosmic joke that the more we think about ourselves more likely to forget who in life so crazy hiring Zaidi's associated with Alzheimer's that are more so more metabolic activity has been associated in there have been some indirect links with anxiety leading to <hes> leading to Alzheimer's or predisposing folks looks to Alzheimer's as well so and then the more we start worrying never gonna get Alzheimer's more. That's just can't make it worse he was he was saying that he really felt that post. Era singlet. You're talking about is where the self like resided yes. There's my my labs actually separate to their two main hubs of the fault men that were the post your single. It's one of them and then there's this medial prefrontal CORTEX and my lab and others have really parse this out a bit where the medial prefrontal Cortex seems is to be involved in the conceptual sense of self so I get up look in the mirror and say oh yeah that's judd but the experiential quality to that that says you know if I'm like Oh my here's going great and I contract around that that's the experiential self and we've actually really map that using. That's pushed your cingulate cortex oriential sell. That's interesting thing. Get your head around yeah so from. Let's use a concrete example so I if somebody says Oh you know your podcast sucks and you're like what ah that's inexperienced that says okay this is me and then outside of that contraction is the rest of the world so when we practice mindfulness for example we can start to see oh. There's that contracted quality of experience. What does that lead? You Know How's that how's it going for you basically so we start to see the that is less exciting but we can also bring in awareness and kindness and connection in that moment and start to move from that contracted state to more open state and as we move and move move in that direction action we start to lose a sense of our boundary and where where we end in where the rest of the world begins and so two that and I've noticed and if this fits with that story you've just told that people that are grateful and forgiving. Are you doing pretty damn well yeah so what gratitude is not a contracted state. It's more of an Opel state yeah same for generosity. It's not a contracted status an open status as long as it's true pure your generosity. It's not like I'm going to do this so I get that's more than wanting right. It's again back and recovery teaching that and being the object of it to some you have to learn how to do oh Yeah Yeah well that brings invulnerability so here so you know I love this idea that vulnerability its strength because if we let go of this protective armor that we put up like healthcare providers we learned in medical school in residency like you gotta armor up gotTa be tough. Don't show weakness and all this stuff. Will that is actually where we're seeing burnout and I think because it's a lot of work to protect ourselves in the coming at you. There is a lot of stuff on as well so we could do two things one is we can put up the armor to protect ourselves or two who we could start to see through this this self protective mechanism and open ourselves to being vulnerable and realized you know what I don't actually have to take any of this stuff personally and when we realize oh I don't have to take this personally. There's this huge burden lifted did psychiatric patients are pretty good getting under your skin they arm but we know how the mind works. It's right truly I learned this firsthand working with folks with borderline personality just say project of identification they are. They're better her. They're just geniuses brilliant. Oh my God I are brilliant. I it's going to sound weird but my head nurse used always should go like this. You make like my favorite Martian antennas under head because the borderlines borderlines seemed to know when I walked onto the campus block two blocks away yeah. There's there centene fresh meat so good. They're so good but anyway so there is a better fo that I you know what I mean. In terms of protecting research project applications essentially people putting their yucky feelings in the you and you catch him you. It's hard not do well for me that was that was one of the big enigmas. It's like what the Hell is going to happen to you and when I really started working with with these folks you have to a lot to get your feet under you know what I realized as I looked at because he was like I had to memorize the criteria 'cause I could just couldn't wrap my head around it and what you feel like all you remember never feels like Oh yeah that's right. I just got stabbed time. I don't even know what you did why that happened so if we look at this from roared base learning perspective it's really interesting. I wrote a part of a chapter on this and even unpublished a scientific papers this where if you look at intermittent reinforcement with reinforcing reinforcement learning now if you look at the criteria so there's an unstable sense of self and they're doing all these things like I'm borland yeah in borderline so we're. Being were were using humor. We're not being disdainful people or they suffer believe me suffer and I was much or more than most people yeah yeah yeah and so is this is not to make little of that disorder. It's a serious thing if anything it's just a laugh at myself in terms of how much I got dragged into it yeah for and fool and by the way and we're both laughing ourselves probably earlier in our career. Will we get sucked in and spun around in ways that we shouldn't have been if we were more skilled if well and that's why I learned a whole lot from this so if you look at <hes> people with borderline personality disorder unfortunately a lot of them have had a childhood trauma history course so if you think of the parent whose alcoholic walking through the door the kid doesn't know whether mom or dad is going to love them or hit them and so in in that sense they're they're. They're spidey senses are up and they're having this completely unstable childhood so they get intermittently reinforced and so they never develop a stable sense of self and so there you know that that part of them jacked up just trying to find some stable to hold onto and as they do that more and more and more you know they realized well they don't realize but it subconsciously there isn't really anything to hold onto especially when when somebody gets idealized you know they idealize Eli somebody trying to get that stable stable bond and then somebody says wow this is weird. I'm leaving and then well it's but they precipitated sometimes which is back to those room reinforcing reward maps or whatever we're calling them. Yeah yeah absolutely yeah so if you you bring all this together they're actually a pretty good model if you look at reinforcement learning and especially pay attention to the pieces related to the intermittent reinforcement which we now know is the most reinforcing type of learning basically. It's like it's it's how the slot machines work. You know you don't win every time or otherwise the casinos wouldn't or what skinner have the case of the superstitious pigeon yeah right yeah absolutely there was a pigeon that they have the he had his pigeons skinner boxes and they would get reinforced at sandown down some corn pellets or something but this one pitch and they send down randomly and the pigeon developed always elaborate behaviors because the pigeon thought in quotes that these all these lower behaviors what caused the corn to come down. It was just completely random. Yep that's Gus. That's where our superstition may becomes from yeah so if we can understand that so for example when I started understand that instead of following the rule for example working with my patients with borderline personality disorder said if you know there's this rule. I don't let your visits go long. Make sure you start them on time. Do all this stuff and I was like okay. What's I don't know why I'm doing this but I'm doing it realized it's helping them even in very little way start to form some stability stability structure yeah and so that structure helps develop a stable sense of south even if it's as simple as we're stopping our session at fifty minutes? Every time you know doesn't matter how much the worst Dr Ever GonNa Kill Myself Oh and so that so if we don't worry about protecting ourselves right if we don't take that personally we can actually that it's limitless to be able to to take that and this is where we can move from empathy compassion are wrote a chapter about this in my my book where you at the craving craving mind yeah so we can move from using the example of healthcare providers because that's what I know from personal experience we get four supposed to put ourself in our patients shoes and our patients are suffering offering than if so factor we're going to be suffering quite a bit. We're going to be taking a lot of stuff personally. If we realized that we don't have to take things personally that we can actually you not have to bring all this energy to self protection if we let go vet it frees up all this energy to be with our patients and to be with their suffering without taking it personally here you talk about that reminds me of I'm an internal by training and we're given none of <music> this in our training I even as a psychiatrist I was given this and it came late for me. Without lady came you know as a result of working in psychiatric setting and and we got to find find a way to communicate that to our peers but I think so we're really losing ground and it's not it's not that difficult. It's it's it's. It's you know what I mean. It's not challenging intellectually just requires diligence and practice and motivation. I'm glad you say that because a lot of people I think especially because physicians are really burnt out in our study. My research assistant just calculated the average age of the people that joined our study ready for this forty five so folks are burnt out mid career. You know they've only been in practice like twelve or eighteen not a very long time. Oh Yeah it's easy to Brown right that so I actually put together just a Free C._M._e.. Course for Physicians for any healthcare providers providers that really just want to understand the basics of this roar base learning system because I didn't learn it in residency training and we specific focus specifically focused two modules on burnout and developing resilience because like you're talking about this. The principles are pretty simple. We just have to understand the basics of them and then we can start to apply them to not only helping our patients overcome bad habits but help us become more resilient. Yeah I kind of manifest. This Bernard noticed in my period was everyone started jumping into sort of administrative. Just other judge couldn't do the clinical stuff anymore younger guys game. That's really too bad because that's when you were in in primary care especially. That's where the wisdom comes in scene. It's not just okay. I learned this medical school in residency but we're like. No you know there's a nuance here that you don't learn in residency. I smell it literally second olfactory. That's so deep and so I can trust it so much there you when you have this kind of experience yeah so these are the folks we wanNA keep healthcare as long as possible and help them realize living in that direction we're we're fact for taking that group and putting them a step back and putting a bunch of extenders in front of him I know because we don't realize that's like this this quick fix solution as compared to stepping back and realizing we actually might know enough that we've got a solution. That's more tenable and can help everybody in the long run. It's not that hard to do but I agree with you right now with this quick fix mentality that the the systems rooms have it's it's. We've got realize that that quick fix the next quick vixen the next quick fixes bandaids upon bandaids yeah. I'm not sure we'll call it even quick fix well. That's just a it's a car wash is like mentality and I'm not sure they expect to be fixed. Just they wanna be done with it. It's like well the system saying okay somebody's burnt out. We need to fill them in so we extenders. That's why I'm looking at that band but I like the car was analogy. I think that works because it's always I think for me. It's it it's all done founding life work grade and so if people are interested in this. Let's let's say you don't have anxiety just interested in the topic we we've been talking and with the craving might be the best place to go crazy minds good. We've also put together some resources on my website Dr Dot Com you know everything from animations where people can actually learn how the mind works through. We have this one on everyday addiction. So people can learn you know why we get this from shopping to smartphones to hardcore addictions and then for healthcare providers we have this free course where people can just really start to learn the basics of their mind and of course if they want that can read my also twitter at Jan Brewer V._R.. E wer Instagram instagram at D._R.. Period Judd right and <hes> do is this educational the Social Media Yes yeah. That's how we spend most of that time so I'm going to follow on that on those fronts and and as you go forward what is there something preoccupying now worrying you as you look at the world from the perspective. You now have just curious. I guess I'm asking more philosophy question now. That were yeah I'm with the brain. I'm worried that were losing being the ability to think I think as humans that's one of our most beautiful and precious resources is this ability to wonder into think into rest in ought to just go out in nature and not be doing something did did now thinking is a lot of things and we always a thoughtful thinker or that some come through your training. I I've always been one. That's been fascinated with how the world works and I love to understand things and I think as I went through life you know I would would go out in nature and gone backpacking trips and just love to just to rest I in nature and I started getting into meditation to just really rest in being rather than doing so. Would you say we're losing the capacity to think because because I here's my personal experience I was sort of a lazy thinker until I went to college and then it just it take turned on it became I went. I got my ass handed to me in my collegiate training and it was good but I was not a great thinker before that is that kind of thinking like analytical careful objective thought you're talking but I think it's more the creative <hes> where we're we just need time to let our mind do it's thing as compared to let me solve a problem you know great if we can put aware twitter in our cell phones for for ten minutes we can do you know we can solve most of those those things relatively industry for manner. What I'm talking about? Is that making those deeper connections that only our brain is doing when we're out of our own way would also include like reading fiction and that kind kind of thing. I think those are always great ways to kind of let our brains Cook in information yeah just reading good stories helps our brains practice like just imagining yes. That's what it seems. We don't do much much of that anymore. Well we're constantly. We read for five minutes and then our brains is who aren't gotTA check my social media and then it's you know it's Bing Bing Bing Bing on the reward system yeah. If you weren't doing this. What would you be doing? I can't think of anything more important than helping people so honestly it's done this kind of loaded question. I get that yeah well listen. I I really appreciate you sharing with me because it's all stuff I'm fascinated by maybe just a smidge above a dilettante but not much and so I really appreciate your expertise and bringing all here. I'm GonNa read the book. I'm preoccupied with all this stuff right now just because it's just I'm interested in human experience like you are and I think we're just getting close some really interesting stuff right now. We are getting really close. I think the pieces where we're starting to see these clear links in we're in sync significant results. I mean forty percent reduction in craving related eating crazy. You know so that's pointing something that people are going to really have to take notice. Is there a name for this is behavioral Psychiatry's Neuro Behavioral Psychiatry Name. I think we've put lots of names on. It doesn't really doesn't know field of this. I think behavioral well. I mean behavioral neuroscience. A science behavioral psychiatry. I think is a good way to put as compared to pharmacologic. Psychiatry behaviorisms has the fairy sort of certainly has a history where it it hasn't been great history so I thanks feel disconnected from that appeals something new because it's so brain-based it is very brain-based but some of the basic learning processes you know we carried on similar yeah we can't ignored the things that skinner discovered and in fact if you look at the ancient Buddha the psychologist discovered wade these things before he did all overlaps stuff works yeah and they're just can we do it better as a question. Absolutely I think we can we can't even start to personalize this as we start to bring in you know these personal dynamics and it does this work in particularly Welford this person or this person we even see this with our APP based or anything we have enough data now where we can actually do some of this deep learning and look to see. Can we personalized this for this person or this person. It's almost like oncology personalized individualized. Yes very interesting. I think behaviorally we need to hold ourselves to those same standards with oncology. They've moved from you. Know a blow your cancer before your blood your body and I think we can get that personalized with baby training as well as we we get better a veteran understanding to go to Dr John dot com on binding anxiety APP eating eat right right now and the mind. Thank you so much. Thank you preach next time for Colin Times and topics followed the show on twitter twitter and Dr Drew podcast. That's D._R.. D._R._A.. 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Ruthie Lindsey

Dr. Drew Podcast

53:57 min | 9 months ago

Ruthie Lindsey

"Thanks for listening to the Dr Drew. Podcast on podcast. One hello welcome to your Demi Reggie I'm your host Demi Burnett and I'm so excited to have you joining my body acuff some things you can expect from this. Podcast ARE SOME JUICY GOSSIP. Some good advice some fun exciting guests and a lot of other surprises with. Make sure you subscribe to spotify apple podcasts. Or podcast one. Wherever you listen to your podcast. Hey welcome Dr podcasts. And continue to support the people support us. We appreciate it very much. Check out all my stuff at Dr Dot Com. Dispense with all of that. Get to my guest Ruthie. Lindsey you've heard her on this podcast series before she has a new book there. I am the journey from hopelessness to healing a memoir released. Really simple twenty-first available now preorder on Amazon. You can go to Ruthie. Lindsey Dot Com R. U. T. H. E. L. A. N. D. S. E. Y. Podcast is the unspoken podcast and L. Her stuff's at at. Ruthie Lindsey highly. Hi Dr Injury. Thank you so much for having me again. I'm appreciative. That guy always a lot of talk about what's The podcast about tell me about it. Well it's called unspoken with the idea that are secrets. Keep US sick. And when we speak out loud the things we feel shame and darkness in about And take power away so we interview people that the world would know for They're still sat. But we love to talk about like being human being versus human doing so. We don't actually talk about what they do. Which that's kind of what the world knows and before we talk about their journey and they're healing journeys and we know the levy like really whole hearted people that are willing to talk about things and healing so. It's been a really sweet time. I've learned so much from everyone we've had one and route the euro stories dramatic. I what was the She was married. We have that one. We know what number was right there at the top of your sheet gone with it episode. Three twenty five which everything's out from behind the pay wall all right so we're going to get them so three twenty five but I'm GonNa ask you to even though they can go there and listen to your story in detail. I'm going to ask you to recap your story a little bit again. Yeah So an elevator pitch version of it. It's basically when I was a senior in high school. I was hit by an ambulance and he my car door going about sixty five and I broke my long long clap. Lean ruptured in a row. See One and fee to and Look on life support in the hospital for a while and for about a month and back then they used wire and final court fusion so they found from my hip and wrapped it with wire and I was very lucky. A Super Young I left there with a big old neck. Brace in my head shaved and We're macneice like six months and walked out of there and I just you know I kinda went back to life as normal I now. I know I was very very disassociated. I kind of talked about it like it was in third person like it was way harder for my family and friends. I thought it was me and I Looking at me you'd never know I have all. My scars are hidden my clothing and my hair and I would like get the work if I didn't have any repercussions at the time And so I went to College. I graduated again very disassociated. I cried for like five or six years. I definitely was a compulsive overeater. I think I was just trying to stop emotions because I just didn't know how to handle it. Did let me ask you. Did you have a head injury as part of the whole incident head? Yes I just want to just head injury stuff to you. Know what I mean. You kind of got fully present after head injury for him. You're lucky if you come all the way back right. And so right and then it's easy then to not connect with the emotions because you're biologically disconnected. Hopefully yeah and then I learned a lot more in the last year or two about them kind of early childhood trauma. Also I think I would actually disassociated before the wreck even happened. Just kinda brought everything you yeah. There's a lot of new information that I learn when writing this book because it took me on a journey like you have to like go in so hardcore and Kinda. I felt like I was re traumatizing in a lot of ways. As you have to relive everything and it's not like a hour long talk or you know a little instagram post. It's like a two and a half year frigging process and so it keeps my ass and it took me on a really dark path but also it. Kinda ended up taking me on this really beautiful healing journey that I'm excited about but basically I found out. I had never heard of pre-verbal trauma. I didn't know that you know if your mom has a lot of trauma that happened. When you're in the wisdom then you know that can deeply affect you So my mom We were very poor and My mom had a lot a lot a lot of trauma growing up and I think having children Kinda brought a lot Ahead and she was incredibly depressed Really really depressed when she was pregnant and before after and then after having knee was even more depressed and wasn't able to really Take care of me so much and so My and my dad was amazing with US around to on. But she didn't he was like scared of babies so like he would just you know like love from afar but he wasn't hands on at all with a As babies and so some attachment issues introduced yeah intergenerational trauma transmission. Yep Yeah And she you know we both done a ton of work and I just learned so much and I'm so proud. She is in the work that she's done and I you know we're all just doing the best we can you know and tune which is a higher order concept. But how did you come to those kinds of concepts? Well so the man that I have my podcast with Mild Adcock. He owned emotional. Wellness place called Onsite And basically you go there for a week. You're not allowed to tell anyone what you do for a living. You give up your phone And you're completely disconnected from the outside world and basically you do a ton a ton of experimental therapy trying and experience me yes And so which is just so powerful. When you're not just talking about it you're seeing it almost act out in front of you and what it does for your brain to be able to see that and so through The services on site I. I ended up checking myself back in when after writing this book because it in you know finishing it up because just did a lot to me and it was actually really interesting. But I haven't gotten part of my story yet but basically I started having crazy pain About seven years my God. I just realized that okay. Seven years seven year cycle. So I knew that I lived in my bed for seven years And then seven years ago I had a complete nervous breakdown But I did it no into literally just now that my wreck happened and it was seven years later that I started having crazy. Pain interesting And then this summer this past summer seven years. I'm not kidding to the week. I thought sleeping again interesting and that I think it was. I was finishing up my book. A lot was going on and I think you know I the last time I had a complete nervous breakdown. This wasn't a complete breakdown but I had stopped sleeping and I thought it all had to do paint I didn't understand that there were so many more layers going on and I didn't understand the emotional piece or the spiritual peace or any of those parts that I just you know I've been able to just collect all these new pieces of the puzzle that were so important and so Helpful Index Keeling during the coming back to myself and really doing really freaking hard Trauma Work and you know what's in so many think are not when I was so excited to talk to you about what again I know. I haven't steered the full story with your audience yet but doing this trauma where like I had hurt worse every year for about fifteen years and I just assumed that that was my story and I had a lot of very very very limiting stories around pain and chronic pain and this is just my life. I'M GONNA use it to help as many people as possible and I'm GonNa make the same purposeful and there's joy and suffering and all these things which it was very earnest and Berry you know it was coming from a really Loving Ernest Place. I didn't believe that healing with ultimately for me. I thought you know I could do emotional. But I didn't take my physical pain could ever be any better You know my neck looked a bit more like a toaster oven than it doesn't actual spinal cord And I have learned all of these incredible Incredible technique of releasing early. I mean through the Matic Movement and through Like learning how to process early childhood trauma and all of the trauma that happened around my pain and There's so many different schools that I'm excited to hear about but since then I've been able to feel better And then so incredible and through learning about. I didn't understand that like the LIMBIC system. I knew that when we are triggered that our responses you know trauma when they were super super big and like hysterical that they were always historical. But I didn't. I didn't understand that because our London limbic system didn't know time that we could go back in and he'll things as though they were happening right now and that he has been so like it's crazy. Of course it's like traumatizing. When you go like something that might have happened. Thirty years ago is literally happy to you at you know. It feels like it's happening right now but the that the beautiful that our brains don't know times like you can literally go back and recreate the most beautiful childhood and recreate be like seeing that. Were super traumatizing. You can go in and take care of yourself. And he'll yourself in those moments because your brain doesn't know the difference and so. I've been learning so much in the more of the work that I've been doing and I you know again because I was so disassociated I thought coming into my body would literally kill me. I thought that would I could never be quiet because I thought stillness and quiet which is I would be still overwhelmed with my pain that it would just overcome. And the only way I've learned to be able to like actually heal myself is to go in. And the only way we can. And we're all so deserving of it and it's so hard and it's so beautiful and it's like the more of this work I've done I like I'm just remembering and learning more than anything else remembering like how. What's so right with me and not what's wrong with me. And what like my inherent worth and value and goodness and deserted knows all these things that I looked for outside of me to validate you know. And another really beautiful thing. I realized when I went on fight and couldn't tell anyone what I did for a living so I knew that I'd been so identified with my story when I lived in my bed or literally seven years because of this pain that ended up starting about told them that story. Yes I know. So basically seven years after my Car Accident I started having this debilitating pain Shooting pain up my neck. That left me like I would like to pass out and I remember when it first happened. I thought I had been electric or like struck by lightning or shot. I mean literally. It was so severe that I just didn't understand what had happened. And every time I go to see a doctor they'd have me do films and come back with the slack spot and they'd be like oh that's the magnet and the machine interacting with the wire your fusion around. Yeah Yeah and they're like everything around. It looks fine. They started me on all these fair peas. Nothing how they moved to narcotics. I was just. I live in debilitating pain and I ended up. When it's all said and done I've been I've been living my bed. I stopped functioning. I stopped working. I just spent all of my time in bed eating my feeling watching really really crappy television and Taking drugs and taking everything they recommended. 'cause I was in. I didn't WanNa hurt all the time. So I took everything they suggested. And after about four and a half years It's one doctor was like I can't tell you what's going on until I see what's under that spot so basically there's like fifty dollars x Ray show that one of the wires had broken and Pierce. My brain And Yeah and apparently I'm the only human make ever had that and you know what I knew up to that My interview that I shouldn't it be walking and that a miracle that I was walking. And and you're the person in my learn more about that. We're like no. You shouldn't be speaking so or any brain or alive like it was literally inside of my brain. It's the it's the part of the brain that they free about or the macabre but it's a part all vital function goes out if you really pierce that area exactly like it's a reptile brain is like when I'm on it's on life support. What keeping our organs and everything working So I I'm so lucky miracle Which thank God? They didn't tell me at the time because I could not have handled that But you know it was super scary. And they're like if you don't have the surgery you will be and so Few weeks later. My Dad Was coming to see me to tell me. He fell our farm so I could have the surgery insurance when it coverage creek the scene and he ended up having a freak fall on his way to visit me literally have ways here. Yeah and and they're not Passing of gradient. Yeah it was just super duper traumatic and I you know I mean who knows how to handle that stuff I just completely shut off and was just all I could read Harry Potter and hang out with my wizard runs like life. Sucks getting the hell out of here And so it was just super scary and so hard and it wasn't it trauma for like me. And he was just so impact over our community at large like it was so beautiful because my godfather ended up sending a medical founded in his honour because he knew that his last wish was for me to have this surgery and people out of the woodwork. Started coming in and being like Your Dad bought my your dad's pay my rent. Your Dad sent me on my senior trip. Your Dad got me into call it. I mean on and on and on a good my dad just and we did not have much growing up you know which he had loved people so well and his love and ultimately taking care of me and I You know pursued by doctors because they just love being the first one to do totally get off on that so I ended up choosing the Mayo Clinic and they like we hope it or help with your pain. But we're doing this because if we don't you'll be realized it. Yeah exactly and so. I went in and They took bone from my other. Hip removed the piece of wire that was in my brain film but not all that was in my final word because it went into grown in it would've been way too dangerous and they refused it with opinion. Screw poll wires frank and I I mean like I did. I would have told you I lived there that that was like a kid. That was yeah. It was and you know because I've been on such heavy narcotics up to that point. It was so hard for them to get it under control. Just because yeah my you know I was immune to not immune. What's the word you were? Well you were tolerant. Holler the right. Yeah tolerant I mean absolutely. I was like on the highest level of fit. And they'll catch and you know just all the thing and so I walked out of there with a the wire in my hand after about a week with my head shaved again and another big neck race and I ended up having really severe burning down my whole right bad and I was just much pain but just a different type of pain shooting anymore and I was of course though grateful to be walking but I was in so much pain that I literally walked straight back to my bed and That you know at that point. It's so depressing. Because I was like that was my one chance and now I'm just as much pain and this is the rest of my life and I felt even more hopeless than I was on even more drugs. And which of course makes you just shell of a human you know and and so About two and a half years later No yeah was around then I was I have been married. I got married before the pain started and that was coming to an end. I see this in the hospital for something else. All this stuff to go ahead and I completely broke. I just locked it and I used to call it a breakdown off breakthrough but it was complete. It was so angry. I I completely being with. Which makes you insane. I mean like completely insane and I couldn't function and I had to move home I felt shame on a level. That's hard to even put into words like shame that what would my dad think? I just felt like I was a burden to everyone around me. I couldn't take care of myself. I couldn't think straight I was just. I've been living my bed for seven years and I felt like a wasted face which now of course I I love that girl so much. 'cause I was just you know surviving and doing the best I could but I was ashamed. Barrel that's hard to even put into words but it was so dark and I wanted nothing more than to fall asleep and never wake up because that sounded like the greatest respite you know from what I was living in my life felt like L. and so my family was GonNa send me a way to get help for people with chronic pain dependent on narcotics and honestly that something about that. I think because I still I cared so much about what other people thought. I grew up in the deep south. Everything was about being sweet and pretty and kind of showing up and you know. My mom is a child. Alcoholics and do a lot was about showing up. Even though things could be really hard you just show up and smile and kind of swallow the hard thing and so I had really I really really cared. What other thoughts and the idea of being sent away and everyone knowing about it that like took me on a journey and I literally the next day started weaning myself all the narcotics and whatever. It's I mean the motivation was ridiculous. Ridiculous but also I was the best decision ever made was to get off of those jobs because You know they were doing nothing. Thurs me and Mark. Politics for people in chronic pain and the paints see the the reason there's a link between the pain and the trauma is in part. The brain called the insular cortex it. It's literally the the part of the brain. That's responsible for feeling now. I don't mean sensory feeling like on your fingertips or somatic pain if you hit your hand with a hammer. It's interesting that feeling what's going on in our body and it includes things like misery and you know all sorts of other feeling states that were in that we call emotions but they really are generated from our body and the insular Cortex is going. Crazy doesn't regulate doesn't record the way it should. Let's say when you've been traumatized and so you have all this trump all my God all the trauma. It's no wonder things are fine. And then the and then the opiates make that part of the brain worse makes it more intense so. I know my listeners are going to want to know what. What were these experiences. Give give us a couple. You know what could blow can I do? I'm sure people are thinking those things you speak. Focus so glowingly about the transformation. Give me give me a call of examples of things you've experienced and what that was like that helped me relief of pain. Yeah so I learned since one of the first things was this woman named Nicole sack taught me. She studied under Dr John. Berno that's how you say his name And she taught me this practice called Journal speak and she talks about how you know your body literally like it goes through what hurt and what hurts the worst and so often when we have emotional trauma we just swallow it and never learned how to process it until it stayed stuck in the body and I also had been studying about you know. Mind Body about The body the score and all of those things that's a shoot I'm blanking. Sander Coke Coke really is the is the father of all this trauma work but go ahead. Yeah so you know up to that point if people have been like you know. There's there's hope for you like you can heal your pain. I WANNA enter literally probably put them to the moon. Cause I'm like I'm the only one in the world and I kinda just had my stake in Milan about that and didn't believe that my pain could get any better and I think because doing does writing and writing this book because it took me on such a dark turn. It was like I was so desperate. But I'm like I. It can't hurt. And so basically she taught me. This thing called journals leak and there's youtube videos like you can like follow her on. Instagram. You can you know. She has a ton of youtube videos. pipe past and all the things but basically new right out early childhood childhood present day and Personality you write down a list and you start with childhood and basically you write down anything like I get really still before I start and like kind of deep breaths and I live. I'll ask myself to just show me where it hurts. I don't know why it's always say that. To like my higher self or whatever and you write down anything that comes up in some of it will sound so silly to you like it doesn't matter like who cares you know when whoever ignored you on the playground but if it comes up you cared and it was something that you never process. Also it's a it's a I think of it. As a stepping-stone you're going down a path and the path to lead somewhere exactly one hundred percent and some of the things you write down willful. Really dig and stuff that he's not wanted to think about and that you've just pushed away but you're so right writing those little things that come up we'll help open you up to other things you write down. Anything that literally comes up like eighteen And some of it. I mean no one in you don't have to like right out complete sentences it no one else is going to see. This list is just for you like no one would know what. Jamie playground means that I do. I know what that means comes up. You know and then for this when you did this work. Was there another person with you? Know just I mean everyone can do this. Everyone can do this in everyone. Serving of this work. Oh my God and so basically so you make these three less present day as anything from eighteen until today and some fema really really big and really painful and someone seems so silly like it could be something that frustrated you that day. I WANNA PUTT. They'll attrition that didn't show up today and I'm so frustrated. You know just whatever comes up you write it down and then personality or basically you start thinking through all the math. You've worn to fill okay in the world like for me. I put miles even when I'm hurting. codependent you know like. I needed to take care of other people to fill okay There's you know you. Can Google like to have kinda references of things that might feel good but like do good like. I wanted to be so good and I needed to be good two hours okay. like be moral be good and so then basically all you do. Is You take out a sheet of paper or you open up your computer and you set an alarm for twenty minutes and you look at your list and you decide what you feel like. You need to start working on that day. What comes up until like the thing that you need to kind of go through that day and I will start one place and it will end up somewhere totally completely different and you know there's things that like they were kind. I personally do it on my computer and I close my eyes and I'm probably on the wrong keys. It doesn't matter you're never going to look at it again. It's just a way to process to get this out to you. Know give yourself a chance to feel the emotions like I wasn't allowed in my home too so rage or anger or but you know it was like just mile. You know. Everything's Okay you're so lucky and so. I- swallowed all of those emotions and there were times when I would do in present day Steph where I would call people names like sweet will. Ruthie would have never set. I'm like I cannot believe I just his name's but my Bonnie Bell pits so sure a little confused on how the extra test so at present day which is eighteen and over yes. Eighteen killed today. Yes that's like an it's childhood yet. So childhood present day and personality wasn't you don't have to do the personality when I didn't get what's that one that's basically all the math worn world got it. Yeah and also. Mccoll has way more details. Like I'm giving you a very cliffnote and I. It's not my thing. This is just so she has a very detailed things online. Where you can learn from that. But it's such a helpful tool to process trap emotions in your body and you sit down and then imo the connect to the feelings associated with those memories. You basically you literally just right. It's like you just let yourself right it out and for only twenty minute and your body is so why 'cause it was created to heal it's GonNa pay you through where you need to go like you might start one place and end up. Totally different place in things will come up at. You didn't even write down that you didn't remember but when you're allowing yourself to start that process emotion start rising and there are times that. I was screaming. There were times that I was cussing people out loud. There were times I was just meeting. And it's hard. It's hard work but we also are. It's like that's that's the work right and the more we do it so basically twenty minutes alarm goes off you stop and you select all delete. If you're writing on paper you tear it up but because this is a process like if you're sitting there processing about your children are Prophet of this is not for anyone to read. You'RE GONNA get out every feeling you might say. I hate my has been an extra feeling. It's not necessarily true. It's just at the moment you felt that and you need to give yourself a face to process that feeling. I WANNA put my children to the moon. They're making breaking crazy. I wish I never had kids. You ultimately believe that no but in that moment you felt it and then he felt shame about things swallowed it in your body. Hold onto those emotional Roy. This twenty minutes is up and you select all delete on paper care that shut up like not to be seen and it's not necessarily it's not ultimately true but your body believes that it is and so then who ever the and this is something that was really important to me when you're done do a ten twenty however long that goes if you only have five minutes. That's okay to do a love meditation on all the people that you lost your mind on that morning like I will sit and I'll ground myself and I I mean I'm a little blue but I'll connect myself the mother and father sky and I'll cover myself. I ask myself covered and just both omit universal love and then. I'll picture the person in front of me that I literally lost my mind on and I'll send them all of this love that I feel covered. It like it gets really cheesy for me but I'm visual. You do it to you. But I will imagine like heart bubble literally coming out of my heart and going into that person and sometimes I'll be like amherst like a cord connecting me to that person and I'll let go through and I'll literally like visualize myself like cutting that cord and I'll hand back people they're paying or I'll take back my pain from people that I put it on. Wasn't there as the caring. And things like visualization exercises are so so powerful and so loving and like the more that I've done that I'm telling you it's been the craziest thing like the pain that is hurt me worse for you know every year or fifteen years. I'm feeling relief and I know that it's only GonNa get better and better and again like I said earlier. My neck is it's like a skyscraper crazy but like if I can have pain relief like I know that this is for all of that because so often so much of our trauma and so much of our physical pain is representations of our trauma physically manufacturing because it's a lot and fight about bodies but like again with that whole thing out saying earlier the limbic when I go in and let myself process those traumas and the moment. I'm a allowing myself to relief and to process and to get it out and get out those emotions better than inside of my body and it's so powerful and so beautiful and I'm also another tool is like the matic. I've been going to a counselor. That does the matic counseling which I can't give all the specifics. You can explain that better than me. But before a disassociated because I think most of us are walking around disassociated because everyone had trauma and everyone is paying until you learn how to process it. We disassociate to survive. We'll know and write an adaptive response in my hands. My own stuff I find. I can't I can't do the stuff you're describing by myself. I have to do art person to reflect and to hold like literally like I mean physically. Hold but a holding impairment. Did you need any of that at the beginning? Oh I've done all the things I i. This is just an extra tool. I go to counseling. Do talk their p. I've done on fight experiential therapy. I'm a believer in all of it. Why this Lynn is so beautiful. Because a lot of people can't afford I out of my which I've been able to do a lot of the things that other people don't have the fun and I will you. I worry aware and I would sort of put the what you're describing and I like. It's very appealing what you're talking about but I would put under a spiritual practice. Would that be more? Is that a good way to I. I know I mean maybe I think it's under the umbrella. It feels more than just spiritual than me because it represented my for myself of being an emotional release of physical release. I think it's all of the above. Its Gun so much. More than like help spiritually Hilmi. Has It brought that affect one hundred percent one hundred percent. It's helped with that but I think you know it's it's just it's another tool and everything's not going to work for everyone but for me it's been one of the most impactful one for me But then as I you know when things come up I bring those things to my counselor. I bring those things to my community of people to help process with me and help you know. Hold me when I feel just overwhelmed I think it's like we heal and I believe fully that we hill and community Were not meant to do the buyer seller. This is just one tool you know like I one hundred percent. I could not have done this on my own I've had so much love and support and you know my inner circle of friends to walk through this with me into process with me but then ultimately they also can't fix me like I have to do the work. And then they we get to come alongside each other and be mirrors of love and healing and truth when I when I forget and I get to be that for others when they forget and I think the more of the work I've done. I think I also grew up in the south where like the Christian culture where I would pull that. Was this broken depraved. Wretch and by the way at by the way I think these days it's not so bad for people who think that if you know what I mean. We've gone so far the other way. I got a dose of it. Well I think I believe that broken shitty thing happened to us live with my own personal belief system. I think we all are inherently good. We're born good and pure and worthy and we have this inherit work but I also believe that we all have light and shadow and Vita like I have a lot of darkness inside of me and for me to just try to shame myself when I feel those thing in push it down. That's bad it doesn't help. And now when I be jealousy or fear or all those feelings come up that I was taught her bad. Never had those I- Omer. It's almost like a dance. I like oh I have conversations and I'll be like Oh hi jealousy I see and I know you think there's not enough for all of that there is and we. You know we're GonNa let low drive here. You're love there than the universal good and beautiful things for you and all the sounds Super Wu and everything worked for everyone but this is just the things that schools that have been super loving and helpful for me And you know I think I really believe like the more of the work like I think growing up the way I did go to be a servant and go help other and a Lotta people forget themselves and I was definitely that way like when I stop living my bed. I just jumped her like. I'm going to help as many people as I can to make the paint purposeful but I never did the healing work or myself and I kind of needed to be needed to fill. Okay you know. And that's actually not loving ultimately and the more I think the most loving thing I can do in the world as you'll myself and then to go out with that full place and being a mere of the healing that I believe is for everyone and you know I am when I come from a more full place. I have so much more to give and to love and to you know to serve I and it's it's not selfish to do this work. It's actually so so loving and again it's like the more you do it. You start remembering what so right with you and not. What's wrong with you? Could we all had the limiting stories and a lot of it might have come from childhood and a lot of shame stories and or from the church or around the patriarchy or from you know culture telling us all these like things about us and I think the more of this? I've done? It helped me come back like way more compassionate tender loving place for myself when I used to be so mean that myself and so ugly. I would talk to myself ways. I would never talk to another humid ever And that the more of that that I'm doing for myself the more loving truly loving. I feel like I'm able to move in the world How how beautiful your practice of the Eighteen to now childhood and personality. Helen does that data. Do you said twenty minutes of emotional feeling about it. You just quickly jot down a few ideas and then sit and think about how you start with making the masterless and you'll add to it and you can scratch things off as you want and you only have to make that list wants And then in the morning I like to do it in the morning time. But you can do it. Whenever is right for you You can do it after your kids. Go to bed or you know lunch break. Whatever but really good to try to do at once a day when you're first starting out And you just you look at your list and after about a week or two into it I mean. Look at my listening more allergists. Open my computer because I come in new where I wanted to start. But if you need that as a reference that's great you have it and I when I first started for the first two to three months I did it. I tried to do it. Every day For Twenty minutes and I saw the most dramatic pain relief when I did that. And then you know I now I do it way more sporadic or if I start like right now and the scorn team. I'M GONNA do it every day because there's a lot of emotions it's triggering for me that have to isolate when I lived in my bed for seven years and I live alone and this is hard and this is brought up like my meatloaf. Oh my whole nervous system and struggle you know and so right now. I'm doing this And it's still good. It's hard and it feels good. I need to have a place to process how I'm feeling right now. What does it bring up a do? Go on walks and things and exercises by one. That's honestly being in mother. Nature has been one of the most powerful tools for me. That's another one that like I've added semi toolkit and I used to not do anything that I thought would make being worse so I did very little and now like going on long walks in the woods with no music and just being in nature and quiet that has been one of the most grounding beautiful loving practice especially right now I mean always but in a time like this I think mother nature is the most kneeling beautiful gift ever. And so the this massless digging a little more that master list. Is that something that you should like working on for a long period of time? Everything that bothers you everything that's left over to get started. I think it's just a place to get started and as you start doing it like literally. I haven't looked at my list and probably eight months. What is it the kind of banded for a couple of months like every day it adds to it kind of thing not necessarily I literally looked at it and but someone might need to and that's great and the personality list is the things you present to the world. I'm not trying to get them. Yes that one is. Nicole can explain. It may be better than me. I feel like I'm not doing a great job. It's basically you can call it your Matt. It's like there's so many ways that we present in the world to feel things into feel okay and feel like we can. It's like survival. You know like I learned when I was probably in second grade new like mile. Really big people will like you. I remember I would share my story at my my best friend. Jed heard me share it and you can't they. You don't need to mile when you're talking about your daddy's death and I didn't even know I was doing it but that was like a way for me to feel like okay. I don't WanNa make people uncomfortable. So I'm going to smile really big at Durham and that hopefully the lightning and it was a lot of it was subconsciously it was just a survival way you know and so then you can talk about that like why kind of tracing it back. Why did we do that? What made me Kinda come with that in a my okay without like people do feel uncomfortable. Okay like we don't have to show that we're okay all the time. That's okay you know. That's that's actually loving. We don't be present like we can just be who we are where we are and that present place is at bluffing. It gives other people freedom to feel like they can show up exactly as they are. And you know not feeling okay That's important For me like I was a big one like I felt like something was wrong with me and I needed to be good. I really need to be good so I would do all these things like. I got married ten months after a dating my first boyfriend because going up in the church add so much shame around that and we had sex and I felt so much. Shame about it. We got married because I wanted to be good and I thought that that was not good. Which all my God bless me we idiots you know but like I believe that I really truly believe that so just processing those things And again McColl Sachs as Ach. She can explain it. I feel like I don't know that I've done a great job at that. But it's just it's been another beautiful tool for me and I think another thing that's been so helpful and semantic therapy it gives you our bodies are always talking to us and as you know this associated person much of my life. I completely cut myself off from my bobby. Let's let's kind of dig a little bit on that too because because you term dissociation the let's make sure people understand what it is. There's different kinds of dissociation dissociation as emotional association which is your sort of pulling away emotionally and that can be a defense like you. Just you move away from the motion and you don't feel it or you can affect your cognition where you actually feel like. You're looking at the world through a tunnel or floating above. It can get very severe but there is something called. Semana formed association which is dissociation from the body. When the body becomes a source of disorganized information we cut off from it least in any kind of organized way and what comes in again through the insular cortex maybe just pain or misery misery. That makes complete sense to me and I. I think I was all three. There's some component of each. Yeah you know And I think you know for so long another story I had with my body hated me because I thought that was the source of all my pain and so I would talk like that like Oh my body me so much and then I turned really hated my body and talk really ugly about my body and treated it ugly and bidden fear. Butyl good foods and it moved her. DidN'T IT We're sin at all because I was so cut off and so the Matt therapy is way their ways to like slowly. Start coming back and to my body. Learn to start listening to her like they had. Our bodies are so wide and have all of these incredible messages for us. And now I believe that my body has been loving me the whole time and literally. I believe all my team was just off ultimately. And he's like invitation to call me back home and myself actually feel And it was like really really loving and so now like I I try to have these conversations like okay Neck thank you so much. We're trying to protect me like I hear you You're you know 'cause I'll be in pain or whatever and I'll I'll have these conversations and I started trying to listen like what are you trying to tell me and also we're safe now like you can release because we're safe and thank you so much trying to protect me instead of like hating hating it. You know And trying to speak really think we used the term lovingly also very liberally. What what do you mean by that? I think again you know I hate it and I think sending love Is just that's ultimately like the largest way that I can like he'll and covering my body covering my pain and love and You know I've said it a lot about this work that it loving it loving ourselves the way that we want to be loved. You're doing it you get to do that for yourself. like some of the work. I do I I'm not in a relationship and in times like this. I want to be held so badly because it doesn't traumatizing end. But what I learned from my friend. Dr Hillary Mike. Reid is our bodies. Don't know the difference in our hands and someone else's like I go through my body and hug her and like you can't be right now but I'm crossing my arms across my chest and like I'll use I am statement and I'll say I'll say to myself the things that I would want a partner to say at me like I don't are you. Are you in a relationship now and not get to do this? For Myself I imagine changes your interpersonal life landscape to quite a bit all this. Yeah Oh gosh absolutely absolutely But like how beautiful that we can do that I felt like. Would someone wants to be in a partnership and not be stuck in a home by them. Tell but that's not my story so I get to go in and do that like I'll touch my face really gently and tenderly and just say really loving kind gentle tender compassionate character passion. Yes it's so it's really so dear and listen I I'm human and their moment that I can spiral and be in shape story like the frigging festival more. You know be cut off and traffic and WANNA like punt someone breaking news. The more I do this where the quicker I am. Come back to my truer whole heart itself. You know and comeback in my body and growled and all of those things and it's it's a journey all that in there I am so interesting true There is definitely a good portion of that so much of this happened after I finished. I feel like I learned about the pre-verbal trauma after I I didn't know about that So God I can't even consider right now writing a book like you know I'm creating I I definitely And talking about it I I'm going to be creating content For people and you know I I know that this is like the next step and that was really hard when I had to be like. Wow I have so many more pieces now but the book. It's done and feeling like well I didn't know and I didn't talk about this but you know that's like a part of it like I felt comfort from Glenn and oil who the New York Times bestseller book where it was about getting back into a marriage and it was a love story and literally two months before the book came out. She left him back. That's just life happening. And and not as a next chapter of my book. You know but I do go into so much. I talk a lot about Journal speak at the end. I talk about meditation. Talk about talk about on site. There is a lot of it in the book that there is. There are pieces about the early childhood stuff that I didn't know okay That aren't in. There will be the next book but this one is there from whole walls to healing of at Amazon and then of course the unspoken podcast and check out everything. Ruthie at Ruthie. Lindsey and I and yeah and I I have on my website. I have I'm creating a an email. Ezra I'll be sending out these things that I'm learning right now and practices that I do and you know with this crazy time. Like there's not going to be a book tour but we're going to be doing like a virtual book tour and you can follow along with all of that on my website and I'm going to be creating content for book clubs and you know maybe skyping answer book clubs and things like that. Just rethinking how to do this whole this whole time. You know this whole season. It's just it's just crazy that we're just kind of rethinking how to Best get this out and everyone can ruthie. Thank you so much for joining us again. The last was three twenty five. If you want to hear all the gory details of Oh my goodness comes back to traumatize. When I hear you even recapping it. It's it's a pleasure to see you and to see your growth and to hear your story and then so glad you're sharing with other people and we'll see again saying okay. Thank you for having me. I'm so appreciative wins. Everybody Will See next for Colin Times and topics the show on twitter. And Dr Fru podcast. That's Dr D. R. E. W. podcast music through. Today's episode can be found on the swinging. Sounds of the documents. Podcast NOW. Available on itunes. And while you're there don't forget to rate the show. Dr Drew Podcast is a Corolla. Digital production. Hen is produced by Chris. 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BrainStuff Classics: Why Do Some Noises Drive Me Crazy?

BrainStuff

06:33 min | 1 year ago

BrainStuff Classics: Why Do Some Noises Drive Me Crazy?

"Today's episode is brought to you by Lexus. You at Lexus. Their greatest curiosity is you because the most amazing machines aren't inspired by machines they're inspired by People Dole. That's why Lexus asks different questions. Better questions more human questions like can you see with your ears and answers are as inspiring as you are. which may they leave you with one question? What amazing ideas will you inspire next? Discover the answers at Lexus dot com slash curiosity. Today's episode is brought to you by zoom zoom. It didn't invent videoconferencing. They just made it better. Ready for more. Zoom phone works seamlessly within the zoom. As Your Business phone system to make and receive phone calls. Dell's capture call recordings and easily escalate to video if Benita rises and it works wherever you are in the office or on your mobile device. Zoom built this free hugh exceptional audio quality reliable service one easy APP sign up presume phone online at Zoom Dot Com and meet happy with zoom. It will come to brainstorm a production of iheartradio. Hey brain stuff. I'm Lauren Vogel Bomb and today's episode is a classic from our former host Christian. Sagar this is one. That's near and dear to a few of my co workers in our aggressively open office space. Why do some noises drive me crazy? Hey Brian stuff. It's Christian Sager. Do you want to strangle people. Who Chew with their Mouth Open? I've been does this sound of slurping noodles drive you mad. What about chewing gum? Heavy breathing. Frequent sighing or chronic snoring does the sound of of flatware dragging and clinking across a plate. Fill you with UN ending rage if so you might just have Missa Fonje Sonja and you're not alone but what is it. There are still a lot of questions about this relatively new diagnosis. But we know that some sounds drive certain people people acutely bonkers and I am not talking about slate annoyances or just getting irritated. I'm talking about having certain sounds trigger powerful intense feelings ranging from panic anxiety to anger and yes even arousal if ordinary irritation would be three on a one one to ten scale than this stuff is more of a twelve or if you ask someone with a two million. The list of trigger sounds goes on on the PS. Like the sounds of Pop. Kiss noises plastic bags and even pouring water can all make missa phony sufferers. I furious so what exactly is going on here. The term missile fonje means hatred of sounds and it was made by two neuroscientist. Scientists Powell and Margaret Gesture. Bof Most experts believe that. Mississippi is a neurological problem. Rather than a problem with an individual's hearing System in two thousand thirteen doctor Judith. Krauthammer argued that the problem could be traced back to areas of the brain called the insular cortex in the anterior cingulate Cortex a dysfunctional assessment of neural signals in the brain triggers. This intense discomfort. Interestingly the enough these areas are also hubs for processing anger pain and sensory information. There are competing views of the causes of Misa Fonje August August are molar believes that dysfunction is in the central nervous system that it's hard wired and people and is a physiological abnormality rather than an auditory disorder. Powell gesture bov believes that people can't be born with miss a phony but that there might be genetic factor in the mix currently experts think it develops in late childhood and early adolescence and worsens over time missing. Phony is also often confused with other such as CD. phobic disorders or hyper accuses. People with hyper accuses are overly sensitive to certain frequencies or ranges of sound however if you have Missa Fonje the volume of your trigger. Sound probably doesn't matter. Miss Phone can develop from a range of possible oh factors in patients with other audio. Disorders can also develop the condition. According to audiologist Miriam Westcott tonight. A sufferers can also develop mischief over time Westcott argues that some causes for Misa phony may include an obsession with sounds that irritated or scared Zhu in childhood pointing to a possible psychological factor. So all right if we put all of this together than it seems that experts agree on a few things things. One people with Misa phony aren't just cranky jerks they have no control over their reaction to Misa Fonje develops over time and three. It may likely be caused by multiple factors and there's a little bad news at this point. There's no universally recognized and effective effective treatment for mischief so if the sound of snoring smacking and other mouth noises turns you into a monster. Then you'll be glad to. I know that research on continues as I'm speaking to you. Organizations in the United Kingdom have launched missiles phony Monday to raise awareness for this condition. Today's episode was written by Ben Bowen and produced by Tyler claim brainstorm is production of iheartradio's has networks for more than this a month of other topics visit our home planet has networks dot Com plus for more podcasts from my heart radio the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Today's episode is brought to you by homeadvisor. Finding the right pros for home. Projects can be tough and spark bark a lot of questions. Like how do I find a pro who can help. Will they do a good job while I get a fair price. That's where homeadvisor can help from leaky. Faucets to major remodels. homeadvisor connects you to the right pro for the job in seconds and even helped you get a fair price reviews. Check Project Cost Guides and book appointments go to Homeadvisor DOT COM or download the free homeadvisor APP and start your next project.

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#1222 Narcissism Is Where Envy Gets Acted Out

The Adam and Dr. Drew Show

36:59 min | 1 year ago

#1222 Narcissism Is Where Envy Gets Acted Out

"Thanks for listening to the atom and Dr Drew Show on podcast one. Well Adam finally. We're going to get little Miss Sunshine. We're going to get. I thought we talked about the show but we just disgusted on the phone multiple times. Yes it drives me nuts. How it was the moment we jumped the shark? You'll have to just keep listening Iraqi and cyber attacks could cause big damage in the. US It is vital to protect PC's mobile home devices with the latest software. UPDATES external backup strong passwords. Yeah we like the we like the convenience we'd like to spend money we need to protect ourself. Good thing there is lifelock and it's important understand. How cyber threats can affect our world here in the US identity identity theft is a serious issue? Someone's identity is stolen every two seconds you could miss. I'd entity threats. If you're only monitoring your credit but with lifelock they'll detect a wide range of identity. Threats threats like social security number for sale on the dark web lifelock. They will detect your information. If they do they'll send you an alert. If there's an identity theft problem lifelock agents will work to fix it good thing. There's lifelock out there right that no one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses lifelock and see threats that you might miss on your own join now and save up to twenty five percent off your first year. Call one eight hundred lifelock or head to lifelock dot com use Promo Code Adam. That's Promo Code Atom at Lifelock DOT DOT COM for up to twenty five percent off twenty five dollars. You get one stop for products every month. You break you choose. It's odd fatty food. I don't you heard Dick. Twenty twenty is here and another year of atoms. Monthly nut is about the busted this month and includes a Mr burcham tape measure Z. You can remember the horrors of the jungle while marking that two by four a wallet. Ninja credit card multi tool. There will come the time you will save the day with a second Bossi's famous flank. Steak seasoning see. You can make your meat taste just like Ozzy's and as always a bottle of your choosing the sixty dollar value is yours for only twenty five dollars. Sign up for one month or keep the shipments coming so prep year males box and get ready for Adams. Atoms monthly nut recorded live at Corolla one studios with Adam Corolla and board certified physician and Addiction Addiction. Medicine specialist Dr Drew Pinski. You're listening to the atom and Dr Drew Show get an to get onto 'em winded. Who Pays there's board Fred's uh-huh as Dick's medicine specialist only lifelock dot Com Promo Code Adam and MANSCAPING DOT COM Promo Code? Ads is well for sponsoring this Program all right so drew. I wanted to talk to you about a subject that I kind of found I stumbled upon I had realized that the movie little Miss Sunshine was responsible for the downfall of fire nation. You did mention that and I think we talked about on the phone if we talk we have these offline conference we had it on the phone we had it on the and and it came out right about fifteen years ago it was made about fifteen years ago. Came out about fourteen years ago. Alan Arkin won best supporting actor therefore the zero performance and also won best original screenplay and as I look at it it's sort of encapsulated embodied capsulated everything that was wrong everything that's going wrong now and all roads lead to the sort of the family family in the home. That's always been my head on it and it's everyone's head on it who has fucking head on their shoulders. It's it's impossible if you just said look. We're going to physically and sexually abuse. Every kid in every family is going to be broken from this day forth it'd be total Sodom and Gomorrah Camara anarchy. There'd be half the people would be raping the other half would be sleeping on the streets. It'd be a total utter breakdown of our society and there'd be there wouldn't be enough policemen or National Guard to ever do it all right. That's what I'm saying. You lesson that you lessen the burden I want to know. What percentage manage of the homeless population is from intact families? And that did their job. Not that you'll get a letter grade to that would be a C.. Plus Sir Bob there. The the schizophrenics often come it's a small percent. I I've said it wants. I'll say thousand times. We have one in our family. He's being taken care of by family. That rallied around. I by the way. There's nothing to brag about. Believe you know what I was yelling at Sacramento last week. Because I went up there with with John Morlock they brought family members of begging the Senate to give them the ability to bring their families back to to be able to do what your family did told me to get out of here but even so what I'm saying is even amongst severely impair because I have a severely impaired person in my family and I saw how it can work even amongst those. I still hold the families in in. I adjudged to families in that. It has potential ev effect a great potential so now then what potential what amount. What percentage of people sleeping on the street come from good intact families and dancers though? Not Okay well then. That is something I would like to know. What percentage of folks that Punch schoolteachers come from good intact families. Or whatever okay well with all that in mind. Then that's what I'd like to do for that focus on the family. That's me an only because I know it works. Did you know that before we started love line where we started talking about that all the time I knew it yes I knew it clearly clearly and of course love line drove at home but I knew it very clearly because I grew up with an outside of an intact family away and so did my friends and then my Jewish friends who lived up on the hills had a family and they save for college and they did homework and outings Imbaba Blah and they all became successful and we all clean carpets and it dawned on me that point. This is a this is not. This is a double blind nine test. Were all at the same school you know people are like well. Those kids had privilege. They went to little Lord von Arroyo where they went to Harvard Westlake or whatever no hello. Everyone went to North Hollywood high when we were done. Going to North Hollywood high the intact family with rare exception it would work one way or the other of course but the intact family members of kids went off to new cowl and UCLA and Stanford and the rest of us went cleaned up garbage then. That's that's what I learned that lesson now I. I had a friend named MMA. Chris Harden he was a white guy came from the deep valley. He had a broken family and I just happened to study real hard work. Real hard and a little bit of an overachiever. Achiever just ended up at the Air Force Academy so there was an exception to that rule like every rule like every rule but it was few and far between they. That's how I remember him before. Guy Who did do use the exceptions to the rule to prove the role. Now we use the exceptions to deny the real here so Little Miss Sunshine Let's see little Miss Sunshine WanNa play. Well let me just take this one call. And then we'll we'll start on the clips. Mac fifty-one Milwaukee guys. Thanks for taking my call Coming to you guys right. I am good bringing the White Nice. Okay I'll do that That gives us a question for we have heard you mentioned a couple times. Just I don't know really in passing or ten generally about another subject Dr Serono's TMS theory theory on chronic pain. And I was wondering a couple of things you know. Any detail about like The depth of his theory and how the pain comes from your brain actually denying blood and oxygen to the affected areas. And what do you think about that. And is there any research being down. Because I've had my max better after reading this book. All I did his review button walk so a lot of people. A lot of people have responded to that book whether or not we have the ability to sort of frame that as the issue. I'm not sure we do and back. Pain can be very complicated has got multiple sources but clearly. There's something and what he's saying because I've talked to a lot of people like you. Yeah okay all right see you guys. brought 'em they. I just may not You guys in here this. That's last Friday and I would say the probably the reason he responds. The part of the brain called the insular cortex which is a part of the brain. That is sort of the what's called the interest the map of your body and it gives a sense of Emotional meaning to what's coming out of your body and if you can regulate that region the pain is much less disturbance. It's called the insular. CORTEX is really how we feel. We're feelings come from and feelings about what's in our body and that's what goes off the insular. The CORTEX chronic pain. So I would say more that you may have regulator insulin than change blood flowing. You're back he kinda bring with the before you go to sunshine. Do we talk about parasite that that movie. Now I feel like that may be another threshold that we're passing why you need to see that movie Because you brought it up. Did I gently my kids saw. Aw Oh the greatest movie ever I my wife will watch. We're like this is horrible and then my daughter goes why because he hits close to home I go no you seen it Sangala hunger. Oh my God. I wouldn't know that you're talking about murdering sociopath that infiltrate somebody's home. It was just disturbing. Oh Yeah it's good and and the millennial position is now. There's a horrible rich people that got what they deserved murder. This is the this is okay. Well you and I I have always had that envy thing and it's and it's always something everybody is in charge of of camping down their own envy On a on a daily hourly basis. You are in charge of tamp down you know every time you hear about somebody in your profession. That's doing better than you. Are you pass. A guy in a bigger house are nicer car when whatever that thing is sometimes even is sitting in a restaurant and you see the table tables over and the guy got the surf and turf and you got the the Linguini. And you're like Oh shit. I should that I wish I had but that guy. You know you're in charge. That is very prevalent human transcends ends El Race and gender all everything it is in us all day everyday in. You're in charge of camping. Down constantly constantly. Remind yourself yourself okay. Sure there's always going to be someone who's ahead of me and in this world chosen profession. There's many behind me. I have this to be thankful for and and or by the way if I would like to. You know I you know I go out and I play Seven hundred thousand seat venues or whatever okay but Jo Koy four thousand seat. Well why does okay. Well if I would like that then I have to work harder. Let's go jealousy. LLC than not envy anymore. Josie something you go Zing. They've got something I want God. I'm going to work hard to get that. I got to bring that person down. Well yes he can be satisfied with your thousand seat venues or you can work harder to get a five thousand seat venue. But if you're jealous it has nothing to do with Jo. Koy right that's joy code code coit down because you don't enjoy to the point is the point is this We need to work on that on a daily basis and we've abandoned it and let it run free the the the Every great scripture. We'll talk about envy is one of the worst human emotions and sin reise INS and the used to be a part where you you would say if anyone ever heard you say I hate that guy and his five thousand seat venues. They'd go well. Sounds like it's you and now they're going fuck. Yeah let's get that Guy Right now. That's a prophet. And that's narcissism was were envy gets acted out thank you aright Little Miss Sunshine. The beginning of the end of our society highly awarded boarded movie right about fifteen years ago. And if you think about right about fifteen years ago that's when it started to make its move and now it's full Nutria Infestations you guys can look it up and that story but the point is the first clip. I'M GONNA play it's career and can year represents sense. The traditional family member everyone else in his family represents the new world order the air from the fifties right and he saying in. Hey Dad I don't think this is appropriate or that's appropriate at the dinner table. Little Miss Sunshine is seven. She's she I don't know how the the actresses but she is playing a seven year. Old Girl Okay. So this is Greg kinnear trying to talk about or not talk about suicide at his own dinner table with this family. How did what happened your accident? No suicide attempt unless Russia object. No I'm I'm pro honesty here just thinking grow up to you. I guess Allah Uncle Franken really have an accident. What happened was he tried to kill himself? You did greg mortified. I'm sorry I don't think this is inappropriate conversation honey. Let's see okay so the dad is saying. I don't think we should talk about about suicide with a seven-year-old at the dinner table and everyone's given of look like Oh God old man. Jesus Christ it's it's as if it's saying. I think the Negro is two thirds of a man. And that's not what he's saying he's saying we shouldn't talk to our first grader or second grade or whatever. It's a seven year old about suicide. She called it an accident. Can we just go well when the dog dies. What do you say I took it to the vet vet gave a lethal injection or did the the farm upstate all right? Well we'll keep it going to kill yourself twentieth question answering Richie. You're not getting with question I wanted by the way I do like the fact that the mom is upset. Let let the man talk. Well she the truth lives at that table right truth. She's pro truth pro truth everybody. Everyone's pro truth. Okay kill my very sick man. He's a sick and his head Richard. I'm sorry I don't think it's an appropriate conversation for seven year olds out anyway frank store find out anyway but she's twenty. Yeah everyone's GonNa find out everything I mean. Why not just boot up you porn show you how fisting works? She can find out anyway. Matt Are you aware of the act of fisting as a young boy. Well now no right to pull up cagey adult. Are you aware of it. Yes okay did a seven-year-old mad know what fisting was thankfully. Now did you need. I think it's important that you do now at the Corolla table able they discuss rim jobs. I did find out eventually did not. I'll be within a couple of years right. Well according to a little Miss Sunshine you should know okay so what was wrong with that. Ruth lives pro truth always better. Who was the bad guy that table it will in the movie? It's a right but in real life. He's the only one making sense insane. One right okay so we move onto a Alan Arkin who basically the protagonists of this movie. That keeps kind of hero hero of this movie. Except he's a sociopath. Yeah so here's him in the minivan explaining his views on the metoo movement. She's some tired so fucking tired tight. Yeah if some girl came up to me beg me to fuck okay. I couldn't do it. Can't watch the language listening to music to give you a million dollars. If you turn around earphones see all right the rest all the rest of you give you some advice. Sixteen year old. Well I'M GONNA give it to you anyway. I don't want you making the the same mistakes I made when I was young deer. This way. That's your name right. This is the voice of experience talking. Oh you're listening. Fuck a lot of women eight dollars just one on the right. Are you getting any. Yeah you can tell me Wayne you again. Many on please go Jesus what fifteen God man and he should be getting young that young. Stay up with a whole range. Rain stopped me in the Ruckman. Richard Jail they did. It's perfect. I mean you hit eighteen man. You're talking about three to. Hi Paul. This chuck over right now. You're not going to shut me up. Fuck you concern I want. Let's be clear WHO's a real version that that dad et GRANDPA who's a real life version of that guy he's a pedophile SA- fucking worst human. You would never let that person in in your house right. Yeah and by the way fifteen year olds that have sex fifteen year old male can be accused of. It's still be accused of stature that young pussy state. He's the hero and Greg Kinnear for tell him to shut up the bad guy right this minute. Animal House member when animal animal house was the guiding principle of young people's behavior And if you recall he takes unconscious girl and he has a angel in a And the and the devil is telling the the young man to rape the unconscious woman and the angels. The cool one going on. That's not cool. The I'll think about that different times all right. This is the same version of its success. Jumping the shark all right so now. We'll play canir her. Who's basically trying to tell everyone about focus success in his steps for success now granted Canir has to be the buffoon? Yeah but his message is success. Record all right. Let's play it Finally I'm just sitting there and I decided you know this is Stan Grossman. What the hell and I start pitching in the ninth steps and about? I don't know two minutes. Zanny stopped me. Says I can sell this interesting down. This guy knows how to do it. You know you start with a book and then you do immediate as the father is the breadwinner. He's trying to say I met a guy. I think we can do a sale here. He's looking to his wife or approval. Volunteers rolling her eyes chewing gum chewing gum and looking very disinterested corporate events. DVD's VHS series. I mean there's a whole fascinating reading science and how you roll these things out. Wow Yeah so. He's in Scottsdale right now. You know building the buzz and Kinda get the whole hype thing going. He he's doing with the pros. Rose call eight ticking clock auction a how about that. The wife is like openly mocking talking him with the crazy thing to me. Is He's advocating motivational speaking. Like and those people are elevated. Now the Tony Robbins Steph. That's tell us. Oh what he's basically saying. Is I have an idea. Yeah and lift this family from a VW bus with a broken starter into into a nice suv and everyone in the family. He's pitching it to his rolling their eyes now. Look I'm sure he doesn't have a big ATTRA- great rich track history of success and that's why they're doing like I get what they're doing but he's still saying I'm trying to do something for this family and everyone just making fun of it again. Jumping the shark all right. I'm going to play you a few more. We'll We'll move onto the next one. I I'll tell you about Manscaping oh the lawnmower. Three Point Oh is out look at this thing right for an ice that thing very handsome. What about that after By the way this announcement this this pubic service announcement brought to you by MANSCAPING DOT com after eighteen months of RND manscaping created the greatest ball. Hair trimmer ever the new and improved lawnmower three point. Oh Oh it's now. Available Ceramic Blade to prevent accidents new. Led lights illuminate the grooming areas and seven thousand car pm mode mode so that thing holes as a battery lasts up to ninety minutes. So even Ron Jeremy Deaf finish the job comes with their rapid charging doc powered by a USB and you can get twenty percent off and free shipping with the CODE ADS AT MANSCAPING DOT COM. That's twenty percent off plus free shipping at MANSCAPING DOT com slash. Sorry Man Scape Dot com enter. Ads and look at this thing drew. It's it's quite a deal. It's quite a piece alright. What is our next clip young? Gary we got Arkin all right so now again Alan Arkin is the. He's sort of the hero of this. Great can here's the goat. Yeah of this yeah but the heroes a pedophile junkie. GRANDPA pop cocaine addict. Who's I could be heroin? Let's be fair to them. It's GonNa Teaches seven-year-old to dance are to perform. Oh it's heroin okay heroine okay. Wow sitting on shad the world champion growl I view beauty rest getting it then goes into the bathroom and goes into a fanny. Pack gets a little heroin out. Good Times all right. I don't know is a weird place to cut kind of but All right he's doing this. He's doing this so we know what's he doing there. He is doing heroin and so in the beginning of the movie when they introduced him. That's when he does his line of Heroin Irwin so in this scene he just takes it. Okay that makes sense all right. So he's GRANDPA's doing he was kicked out a shady acres occurs. Where's the part Kaelin is their part where they explain why he was kicked out of his retirement. Homes look into that because he he was being sexually inappropriate elderly people. I guess I guess of worst person on the planet. Remember my we. He's a hero because he's teaching seven-year-olds we have this weird thing with these two heroes right. I mean same thing with Walter White horrible human being all right but but we're not modeling. Were now this is a family family yes all right Released that one. The guy gets the family turns on him appropriately. He was kicked out for selling heroin out of the out of the acres and all right Cut Five the one that drives me the most insane ice cream everybody. They're sitting in a diner by the way that that I gotta add this fucking freak. Show kid the fifteen year old. Who wants to be a fighter pilot? Who won't talk right WHO's Goth? It's the worst casting ever the real. Look the real version of the GRANDPA's the worst pedophile in the world. And the real the fifteen year old kid who wants to be a fighter pilot is a guy with a crew cut. WHO's doing push shops all the time? Yeah not the guy with the fucking cut that Ringo had when he got off the Pan Am flight. Who doesn't talk in doesn't doesn't do pushups in his goth? Sorry here we go and you. I'm sorry I don't apologize. Sign of weakness. Okay can I get the waffles down. Alamoudi means Oh that means it comes with ice cream for breakfast dollars okay. You're right take back actually. So she ordered waffles with ice cream for breakfast and and She's on her way to a beauty pageant where they're going to get in bathing suits and perform. She's already a little overweight when you say it's time time for the parents intervene. The worst part in the world in today's world order. Shouldn't somebody at the table say. Hey you know Let's get some eggs going but I don't know about the ice cream waffles. That's this breakfast not desert and You you probably could could shave a couple of houses. Is that kind of the parents. Yeah Okay but not all right. We'll keep rolling In French translates literally as in the fashion I love new mode is derived from Latin modus meaning and do a proper mesh fractured up carried. I'll tell you a little something about ice cream. Ice Cream is made from cream which comes from cow's house no and cream has a lot of Norwich wrong on this one but still the point. She's GonNa find out anyway. Remember what what well. So when you eat ice cream fat and the ice cream become spanning your body I swear to God what was soon by the okay so the mom that had no difficulty protrude the pro truth mom who had no difficulty in your mom finding out her daughter seven year old daughter finding out about uncle suicide attack confusing. I think I may have added. That Al- is now upset. That he's sharing the truth about nutrition with their daughter better and again once again. He's the bad guy so the bad guy is the dad who doesn't want suicide talk with the seven year old at the dinner table but at the breakfast table. Who wants to explain? It's not a good idea. is screaming waffles. He's back I get. This is the jumping of the fucking shark. This is where we lost it because this guys right well boy. It's it's again whose truth. That's the problem right. So what ice cream. You might become if you don't stay nice and Skinny Sweetie Olive. Richard is an idiot. I like a woman with meat on bones upset by the way all the fucking bomb Cisco like Oh. You're going to tell the truth again. Aw She's like mugs or the painting or Bridgman does like please make it. Stop the look of disgust and disdain. She she has every time her fucking husband either opens his mouth about no suicide. Talk or Iva Plan for success or you shouldn't eat waffles in ice cream for breakfast. She's like Oh Jesus Oh dear God make it stop putting your hand down in putting her head in her hand so weird. It's the it's the opposite of truth in what is correct. That's that's where we're at well that that's the appoints. Truth is pro truth if it's her and her subsequent narrative right pro narrative if it's my narrative all right furnace want you to understand it's okay to be skinny as okay. It'd be fat if that's what you WANNA be whatever you want okay. Okay but I'll take me ask you this. Those women and Miss America. Are they skinnier honey. How people are pissed now? Yeah guess they don't eat a lot of ice cream. Aw Oh that is a big problem. That is a priority to stop talking or thinking how you would how you could handle this in a healthy way. Such a fucked up situation just shut up waiting in hell. Ironically used the word healthy healthy way right how oh you would deliver nutritional message without shaming it's not shaming. It's it's information I get I get it. Just go eight aches. I got protein eighteen. Do Stroh with you when you joined in on this whole fucking masters must do. What do we do? What do we do? What do we do? What did we do your daughter? Disordered fucking ice cream and pancakes are waffles on the way to beauty competition. You cut her off and go not for breakfast. I'm sorry get something else. Were in training is not healthy and by the way it's not good for your mind body. It's not good for anything it's bad for you and I who love you and I are paying for the meal and saying no to that it's being a parent. We owe you just wondering how to get this message across plus just all fucking parent. That's all he's being the parent. He breaks his daughter his daughter. What some sort of career in the beauty pageant world? What if she wanted to be a gymnast or what does she wanted to be a firefighter? You can't be fat hat. Do these jobs. You know what I mean. It's going to be going to have to have a discussion here. What if the son was playing football? It's a discussion with him about nutrition in wise it so touchy all of a sudden. That's a woman and she's going for thing you'd have the same discussion by the way. Kids are so malleable the ball. I mean they're not brittle at all you can tell him shit they just take it we. We've done the stupid thing where like we don't want to hurt him. We don't discourage it we don't want to body shaming they understand Dan the truth and you laid on twenty four seven. They're perfectly fine with it. Same Way we grew up some way any way up. Someone just one eight now can't have that eat that none of that. How many times did you hear you can't have that for breakfast? That's not your back now. Now that's not no you can't oh you're going to catch you when piece of cake. I know now not breakfast. How many time I never heard it but I have friends who heard it that? That's that's not breakfast. You don't eat that for breakfast. Yes yes okay you heard a thousand times road your self esteem or damage it in some way that we can never be repaired or did you kind of get. That cake was not breakfast I got it okay. Go do something. Talking about lifelock everybody the Iranian cyber attacks can be a potentially causing damage to the US vital protect your P. Z's mobile home devices with the latest software updates external backup strong passwords. Maybe like the Internet. We like the convenience to buy things online but we you know it's a new technology. Got To protect yourself and that may be you have to pay something to protect gooding. There's lifelock it's important to understand how cyber threats can affect our world. Here's the in the US identity. Theft is a serious issue. Someone's identity get this stolen every two seconds and you could miss identity threats if you're only monitoring your credit that's why it's a good thing thing. There is lifelock detects a wide range of identity. Threats like something like your social security number for sale on the dark web lifelock will if they detect your information. Send on alert. And if there's an identity have problem lifelock agents will work to fix it right man that's right. No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses. Lifelock lifelock. See threats that you might miss on your own join now and the twenty five percent off your first year call one eight hundred lifelock or head to lifelock dot com use Promo Code Adam. That's Promo Code Adamant LIFELOCK DOT COM for up to twenty twenty five percent off all right. Dr Drew Ski View. That's it's funny. You know first off everyone this this notion of like. Hey Don't do this with your kids or protect your kids outta conversation with my son the other day where he just as I said. I'm I'm unduly scared mark like I am. I mean. Nervous person like my undoing and I said yes you grow up environment where you were told. You're going to be abducted constantly if you went to the Froyo in place alone there are consequences to save parenting being told. You're going to be abducted if if you go alone to the Pan Express. That's not helpful there. It's not what I mean is is nothing is free yes. You've eliminated the chance chance that the kid be abducted but but is it free. It's not free. Nothing free in nature right. No no and now. We're going to have to work on undoing undoing that because you grow up in the safest place in the world thinking there was a good chance as you may be abducted. This isn't free people and the parent that says let him walk alone. Let him go. That's not the lazy parent or the bad parent. That's the parent parent. That doesn't want their kids to come into the teenage years and have a paranoia annoying and also realizes it he's like I know that's all I heard growing up and now we'll nervous but why wouldn't you be that white horse. What else so being told the truth? Statistically or what not to eat or what. You should do what you shouldn't do or what's going to happen and what's going to happen Abba. That is good parenting. Thank you on here all right February twenty seventh Cleveland. Cleveland hilarity. Twenty eight and twenty nine th Indianapolis Helium go out say a February go dot com for all the live shows. Everywhere and Ah Chassis C.. H. A. S. S. Y.. Dot Com for all the movies including uppity. which is up and running now through dot com for all the family pods? Don't forget the Sunday the Sunday at three o'clock tweeting live. Call intro check it out and check out the new podcast showman's on podcast one and you can get it PODCAST ONE UC. ath-thawri check it out an idea to tell next. I'm Dr Sam Mahala this is Corolla digital.

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How to Connect with Your Body

The Science of Happiness

18:56 min | 2 years ago

How to Connect with Your Body

"Scoggins watches and jewelry are inspired Denmark ranked as one of the happiest countries in the world Scoggins connects the dots between culture and design with watches and jewelry that reflect the less as more lifestyle. Visit Scoggins dot com to get a special discount on your first purchase. When you sign up for emails. That's S K AG dot com. Not leaving without them. Maybe job number. The first season of the badlands. I the wrong approach to the role. I was thinking, you know, all these American dues when they do X men and all that stuff. They get really huge for the roles. So I need to get huge to the game. Twenty five pounds of muscle in three months was proud of getting that much bigger in such a short amount of time. And I walked into the training room to start doing the mushrooms training. And I was oh, I can't even do a roundhouse kick right now. And it actually kind of hurts. Why is it hurting? Realize it was the stiffness that the extra muscle had caused with my body and just how it wasn't used to it. But it was that moment of not being able to move like I used to be able to move realizing. Oh, man, I screwed up. It was really stressful because it was like we're about to start the show. It's very much is driven. I need to perform. What can I do? Site spent weeks getting more supple so bit more yoga look with more stretching trying undo what I'd done to myself wrong mentality was that kind of American money tally with China. Go for result as going for process that I knew would be able to get me to perform. Known as the Brad Pitt of Asia. Daniel Wu gets sworn by paparazzi wherever he sits foot in China. Now, he's making his Mark in the US his native country Daniels the star and executive producer of the AMC show into the badlands going into its fourth season on each episode of our show, we have a happiness Guinea pig. Try research based practice for happiness resilience kindness or connection today. We're excited to have Daniel join us as our Guinea pig. We're lucky because if we are to try to have this show in Hong Kong, I think we'd have fifteen hundred fans outside beating down the doors. Daniel thanks for joining us here. Thank you for having me. I have to ask. I mean, I thought I was working hard. But I think he'd been in something like sixty five something like that. Yeah. Sounds like it's about three or four films a year. How did you end up in film ninety seven when I graduated? I went to Hong Kong to win is the handover Hong Kong going to China as American kid, you you don't really get to take part in very many historical events. Yeah. I wanted that to be sorted by graduation. Trip and within a month. I'd spend all my money was going to hit back home. And then I was in a bar having a drink and someone came up to me and asked me if I wanted to be in a TV commercials. Yeah. And so I was like what? And how much you pay for thousand dollars. I'm like. Okay. Great. And so I did the job a month later director saw the added called me because I want you to play lead to myself. Oh my God. And I'm like what I don't need that well never acted before. And actually, I turned it down. And then every other day for a month. He kept calling me trying to convince me to do it. And the end of the end of that month, I go. Okay. Look if you really think I can do it. I'll give it a shot. But you can't blame me for screwing it up. And then the first day on set. That's when I realized like this is what I wanted to be doing for the rest of my life. Does I got up to sixty something and and a lot of large films? No, not actually not martial arts is my background. And I actually tried to hide it from the industry when it started. Because Jackie Chan was my manager for eleven years. I saw. Aw, Jackie's body his state of he'd put himself through percussions of that. And just having to deal with the pain all the time. And I was I I don't wanna be the action star right down the body like any demanding yet. I don't want to be sixty and not be able to walk. I'm only going to do mushroom certain choice projects. So you've had a long background in martial art and it connects with your dad. Yeah. My dad did Chinese opera when he was in Chiang young boy and Chinese opera is a lot of the stories are about war fighting, and it's very stylized as it's staged fighting, basically. But it's achromatic Jackie Chan and all those guys came from the school is that right? That's where his style kind of broke certain barriers because it was no longer just mushrooms. There's a lot acrobats, you know, when you see him jumping through a little tiny window or through the between the rungs of a ladder. That's more his acrobatic skills than his martial arts skills. But yeah, I think what really influenced me was watching movies. Yeah. Because as a Chinese American kid growing up in the states, you didn't really see people like myself. On the big screen at all. But on channel two TV you in states here in San Francisco here, they come with ear on the weekends. Really? So I'd watch that all the time. Like every Saturday. I'd watch that it was a double feature. And what really did it for me was my grandfather taking me to the great star theater in Chinatown here in San Francisco to see Shaolin temple, which was jet Li's. I felt and he goes, you know, all that movie. You've been watching on TV. It's all fake. This is real real food. You know, one of the really fun dimensions to this show. And I mentioned this a lot because it it's so revealing is you get people with these fascinating life histories, like your background and experience it film in martial arts and sorta they look at choices in the science of happiness in what they pick is always interesting, and so you chose the body scan. Yes. And you had an early experience with the body scan with your dad. Well, yes, when I was seven I started doing transcendental meditation with my dad, no way, which is weird because I didn't think about it would being weird them. But I look back in retrospect, it is kind of weird he was having headaches and that was having headaches as a kid. And my dad goes, why don't you try meditating with me? And so I think for several years we did this to get out on the weekends. We would sit and meditate together. And then once I got into martial arts meditation became part of the practice as well. Right different little bit difference. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. So I mean, obviously, there's a lot of mindfulness meditation body calm in martial arts doing it. I didn't realize it was called bodies Gan. Didn't know what it was at first bodies guy, just chose it. But he's gonna sounds interest. The body seemed to try and and then I'll go this is actually a meditation. I think a lot of people will take yoga classes, you know, end of a class you lie there and you check in with your body and use a vase not. So John cabinets in. I think came up with the idea body scan. You know, he was practicing yoga and meditation in the early eighties. So he translated it to these secular terms like body scan. But it does come out of the yoga tradition. Walk us through what you did. Yeah. So I actually listened to the audio the guide on there to have the step-by-step process through it. And so it's basically, you know, you're lying. There is closed and checking in with every inch of your body notice your hand, your hands tense or tight see if you can allow them to soften it's like your scanning from your toes all the way up to the top of your head. Let your face and facial muscles be soft, and you actually feel stuff. I mean, you actually feel so releasing and letting go did lying down. So to censor that, you know, once I'm fully relaxed the body of sinks now into the ground. Right. It's actually the tension releasing from your body if feels like you're thinking, but it's actually just your normal tenseness letting go a little bit. It's just like a quarter inch or, you know, an eighth of inch took a little drop you feel that. And then you know, you've gotten into that state. And that's what I felt. Your whole body as best you can by the end of I finished. I could feel parts dropping and sitting and settling. And then finally when it was over. I could feel I'm in a I'm in a relaxed now, and you walk through the kind of directing your attention to different the hands. Yes. Yeah. The fuel the tingling feels some motion and actually sometimes I actually will move. I did move my toes a little bit at my fingers a little bit and my wrist or my joints and articulate a little bit. I wanted to ask you, you know, it's always a privilege to talk to longtime practitioners of this. Both thinking about the body scan that you did for the show. But also just in general. What's it give you on a regular basis? Definitely since of inner calm. Yeah. And peace. And in fact, I now realize like I thrive in chaotic situation like win. And when things are crazy around me, I'm the most calm in the most settled it's about finding the calm in the chaos. We're doing mushrooms, we're constantly putting our bodies into stress having our minds in distress. So. So that when you go out there and face, real stress fun. Call and find the calmness in it. Because if you're in anti-anxiety emotional state, that's really inhibitive if you let your emotions get over controlling you. Then you can't act correctly. So when you're acting you're in this complicated scene and cameras from all angles. And can you sense it, oh, I'm in a mindful state of acting right now. And you don't want to be in that you like you don't want to be thinking about the acting is just like, Bruce Lee, always said don't think feel you want to get to the point where there's no inhibitions, and you're not thinking, oh, there's thirty forty one hundred people watching me right now perform, and you know, you just do it, and you be the role, and it comes out actually is thing when I'm practicing martial arts is the point where I'm not thinking about the moves anymore. It just flowing out of me and same thing with martial arts choreography and into the badlands. Yeah, it's very overwhelming because we have no time to rehearse all that really. So we're learning each section of the fight as we go along. I realize what choreography is is taking your phone Dacian, which is. Letters. You know, martial arts kick a spinning kick punch or whatever those are letters. And you're stringing them into words in the choreographer is making those words into poetry, right? And you're performing that poetry, right? And so if you know, the letters which I know I do because I twenty years of my life doing this stuff, then I should be able to string all that stuff together and feel it and then feel the poetry was that clicked I didn't worry about each move anymore. I was thinking about how my body flowed through everything. Yeah. And that's kind of the ultimate level. I think of any art, I know a painter writer or whatever if you're not constantly going back and forth in your head about it. And it just kind of flows out of you. That's kind of the best art that you make absolutely and anything that we do about it and has your body holding up with with all these rising Lee good because I you know, I did adjust my training practices through mindfulness of my body, and realizing that is about movement and efficiency of movement and also moving smarter as you get older a little thing can screw you up for a long long time, right? And so I have to be really careful in how I train now. And so before in the past I would do five hundred kicks a day. You know, I realize now that that degrades my body. So I maybe do ten kicks today. But I do them like super slow to make sure that all the muscles are checking in wall and say, let's doing doing a sidekick, for example. I'll take five seconds to do one single side kick push it out and come back in. Whereas before as I've learned a lot more about my body through that process because I've now developed true like inner strength before you can use speed to hide strength to throw something out there. That's right. And then hide it all, but when you really concentrate on form, the reason why martial arts is so form based and you know, you body hasn't been position to throw this kind of kick it so you don't get injured. Yeah. It's been studied thousands of years is the most efficient way to use your body. And so you take heed to that. Cool. You know, when I talked to Russell on here at UC Berkeley who leads our martial arts program. Just when I talked to him about the science of. Happiness and gratitude and respect and humility, and you know, mindfulness, and breathing and compassion. He's like it's embedded in the end. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all those things you just mentioned are in the foundation of martial arts. A lot of people. I think nowadays, especially with the influence of have CNN MA. Yeah. Mushrooms is all about fighting and martial arts is to worse as does the martial art. You have to have the harmonious balance of both. And I think MMA is very typical American behavior, which is like, let's take the best thing of everything and make our own thing. And. Let's disregard thousands of years of study and systemic like work here and just put it and then make it a sport and make lots of money. Yeah. It's great. I like it. I enjoy watching it because it shows certain techniques. What works and what doesn't work, but it's not all that martial arts is. Yeah. So mixed martial artists. Oftentimes, you'll see by the time the forty something they're done. They're really done. I mean, they can't practice anymore. They can't do the exercise they were able to do anymore. Whereas if you look at it like a Chinese martial arts system, you have conflict you compared to when you're young Taichi when you're a little bit older in middle aged. And then when you really old you can just sit and do she going meditation? I'm a little offended because that's what I right. Know, but you don't have to do it. You can take take one aspect or whatever. Right. But the point is there's a system that you know, and it's made for you to practice throughout your whole entire life interest in part of your lifestyle. So Daniel, what did it give you over the course of your life? Like, what are some of the things that it has put into your soul? I think from a very basic level, obviously, disciplined perseverance, I think those things you learned at a very young age. Yeah. If you don't put time into something you're not going to get good at it as simple as that. And I think especially place modern days now with sort of instant gratification society where I see this with kids, not just millennials. But even younger kids that you know, if they don't get something within the first five ten minutes, they just give up. You don't see the work involved in what goes into that yoga pose you on Instagram or that incredible move that someone's doing, but then there's other stuff spiritual stuff in calmness and peace within yourself, reducing stress and anxiety. Like all those kind of things like I try. To use all my practice to help with those things as well here in Berkeley, and increasingly so in the United States, and it's just one of the great privileges our cultural identities, or so multifaceted and interesting and a lot of students have this one experience, which is coming from China or South Korea, Japan and taking in California northern California and becoming this spy, cultural, and you're doing in the other direction. Yes. Up here. And now your beer when they're going back. So what what do you make of it all well, it's been interesting for me? It was part of going to Hong Kong. There was probably something as conscious about searching for my own identity. I think growing up here. There was a sense of like who am I is a person I need to find my identity. Now, I'm very clear about who. I am. And it's not necessarily rooted in either or is kind of a harmonious mixture of both. And what I like to say is. I'm really my mom uses is to is. You're a person of this world. Yes. All that matters, and realizing that it's just you find this kind of peace, and and levelness and how to move forward in the world. Well, Dan, you ruined. I know you're off hopping a plane pretty soon and headed back to Asia for more work, and we're filming congratulations on into the badlands and good luck. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here on the science. And thank you for having me. This was really fun. We'll be right back to talk about the science behind the body scan meditation. Today's podcast is supported by Bombay's. Thanks to two years of research and development and multiple improvements in design, performance and comfort Bomba's or the most comfortable socks in the history of feet. Here's why Bambas have an arch support system that provides extra comfort where you need it most and a cushion foot bed that's reinforced for comfort without being bulky to me Bamba SOX feel like hug around my feet like an all day foot massage. I like Bomba's because I spent a lot of my day on my feet with meetings and teaching and so forth, and they provide a lot of nice comfort and support for the work that I do. So whether you're a runner power Walker or power lounger. There's a pair of Bomba's that will add comfort to life. Try them for yourself. Go to bomb dot com slash happiness and use the code happiness. For twenty percent off your first order. That's B M B A S dot com slash happiness, code happiness. And you'll get twenty percent off your first order. One of the things that I love about the body scan is that it is an easy practical introduction to meditation, and it's a practice that really gets you to pay attention to what's going on inside your body research suggests that the body scan can help us reduce stress improve our wellbeing and actually decrease the physical pains that are part of our day here to explain why the body scan carries those benefits is UC San Francisco neuroscientist, Helen wing. She's exploring how mind body awareness and meditation can enhance social relationships and improve mental health so for meditation and body awareness. I wanted to know can we identify when people are paying attention to their brash or another part of their body, like the feet or mind wandering. And it turns out that the technology is developed enough where we can start toy Dennis by these different mental states within each person based on their own unique rain data, and what are you? Ending. How do you think about the brain benefits of these body scan meditations there's some studies that show meditation increases activity in the insular cortex, which is involved in paying attention to the body the way, I like to think about it is each part of the body has it's all form of information and wisdom like the feet is more about balance and movements and the heart may tell you more about relationships in the stomach might tell you more about digestion, and anxiety and intuition. So you have to go back to the Ross signals of your body. And then ask yourself white messages is my body trying to tell me I like to think of all these messages as benevolent messages, even if they hurt because it's trying to tell you there's something in your environment or your life. That's not aligned with your internal goals and values, and then it's up to you to figure out, you know, what do I need to shift? If you'd like to try the body scan meditation or other practices like it. Go to our website, greater good in action. That's G G, A dot Berkeley dot EDU. And then Email us, and let us know how it went. I'm decker kilter. Thanks for joining me for the science of happiness. Our podcast is a co production of UC Berkeley, greater good science center and p r with production assistance from Jenny Cataldo and Ben manilla of BMP audio our producer Shuka, Colin Tari. Our associate producer is Leeming stew. Our executive producer is Jane park, the editor in chief of the greater good science center is Jason Marsh special. Thanks to UC Berkeley graduate school of journalism. You can learn more about the science of happiness and find related articles videos, quizzes all kinds of stuff on our website, greater, good dot Berkeley, dot EDU, and shoot us an Email. Tell us what you think about what you heard send it to greater at Berkeley dot EDU.

Daniel Wu China Hong Kong Berkeley San Francisco Bomba Asia Jackie Chan United States Bruce Lee Guinea executive producer UC Berkeley graduate school of Scoggins Brad Pitt AMC Scoggins Denmark producer
 Mixing Opioids and Benzodiazepines- EP 12 - 13

Weekly Infusion

29:39 min | 1 year ago

Mixing Opioids and Benzodiazepines- EP 12 - 13

"Mm-hmm. Opiates. Opioids problems. They cause headlights daily, but this drugs us actually started thousands of years ago this week's episode we look at the physician's role in the opioid crisis. And the deadly combination of opiates invented is opinions, we have experts from interviews with Dr birth Madras, as well as author Sam Kiwanis, Dr Anna Lemke, addiction specialist Shelly Sprague and author David Sheff. And how Dr dot com presents the history of opium. Here's a quote from a physician, Dr Jacqueline Carly after a long day prescribing painkillers, I've often asked myself, am I contributing to the opioid crisis and no doubt many physicians have asked themselves this question, especially in the wake of increasing opioid related deaths that continue to play the country unfortunately, physicians ignore their conscience, and they continue to justify questionable prescribing, while drug companies drug distributors and pharmacies bear some responsibility for the current epidemic. Many experts have concluded that it is us physicians most of whom will intention, we're to blame Dr Anna limpkey, well, as I became just generally more aware of the prevalence of addiction in my psychiatric patients Nestor asking them about their drug alcohol. Use what started to emerge in their stories that they were also misusing door addicted to prescriptions that they had obtained legally through a doctor and sometimes doctor was meat. So that was a hard reality. I had to face to that the stimulants and densities simcity appears primarily that I was prescribing. The patients were not using them, you know, as intended so that just became part of my general awareness in the early odds. And also, what really galvanized me to want to educate other doctors about addiction knowing that I myself was as ignorant as anybody in the beginning, despite the fact that the doctors who over prescribe opiates were trained to use sparingly. There was a whole generation that was trained to use them, excessively opioids are extremely addictive Dutch birth address, and the circuitry is very important, because the frontal cortex principally part of your brain is critical for putting on the break for impulse control for judgment, and that part of the brain as you gradually fly into AVI print for state of addiction that pace. The brain becomes more and more disconnected from the reward system of the brain from the Nikola, which is the system that, that thrives emotions drives impulses and the, the stop part of the brain just is no longer able to control. What we call the more primitive parts of the brain that are just continued to seek drugged up until the nineteen eighties potent narcotics reserved almost exclusively to treat cancer pain, post surgical pain end of life pain. But that was about to change girded by the published accounts in a prestigious medical journal that downplayed the addictive properties of opiates a large sector of the medical community swept up and the prospect of using them to treat a broad range of elements that included chronic non cancer pain. Dr Kathleen Foley, and Dr Russell Portnoy, who had co authored one of two studies. We mentioned previously in the journal pain were integral in the advent of a new. Medical specialty called paleo care whose goal was to treat pain in all its forms both fully and Portnoy would become well known spokes people in the emerging field of pain management Dutch Olympic, what happened was that the pharmaceutical industry. I'm convinced doctors that opioid prescribing was beneficial in the case of chronic pain by trotting out, these various academic, luminaries people with important academic titles, who looked at, you know, important academic, or, you know, preeminent, hospitals and clinics. And, you know, firm essentially promoted the careers of these individuals paid for them travel all over the country to speak at continuing, medical education courses, I think a really important piece to understand this is that, as you know, doctors working on the front lines in clinical care, do not have time to read all of these journal articles. I mean, there are thousands of them being published more every year and many doctors don't really have the expertise to interpret them even if they did read them. They're focused on taking care of patients, so they rely on these continuing medical education, courses, and these so called academic sought leaders who presented these courses to really tell them what the evidence shows and debts, essentially, what happened with the good democ in the nineties, early 'oughts is that these various economic thought leaders promoted in paid for by pharma, trotted out very weak. Ev. Evidence to convince the average prescriber that prescribing opioids for chronic pain was both safe and effective. When, in fact, neither of those things is true during this time period residents of a poor region of nyree Mexico establishing, what would become a wildly successful, low tech narcotics trade that operated a major cities, all the United States, the small groups, these cells were violent and valued customer service. They kept low profiles as they delivered high quality heroin, known as black tar to the doorsteps of their mostly white middle class customers, virtually ensuring that continued in slave to the drug. They were like dominoes Pizza Hut they delivered. And they value their customers. Sam keenness the importance on Oxycontin, toxic continent. The story is one of the important reasons it's important is because Oxycontin was the bridge from those loads opioids to heroin. There wasn't a real bridge before Oxycontin, came along and took you up to vary. High daily doses hundred and fifty two hundred three hundred milligrams a day, people got desperate. They got cut off from their insurance. They lost the doctor stopped prescribing a variety of things would happen. They would switch to the street, which now had a robust opioid black-market pills, and there, they would find that those pills were available, but they're expensive dollar a milligram usually and that would then send them because they couldn't afford that they would then send them eventually to, to heroin while that Harewood distribution was involving physicians continue to develop increasingly religious thuesday. Here's doctorate annual cats a pain specialist, quote, my fellowship director, even told me if you have pain, you can't get addicted to opiates, because the pain soaks up the four you as though euphoria was the only factor in addiction. The potential relief pain inspired people to enter medicine, but the actual experience of alleviated for patients is also a powerful motivator. Arguably so amount of pain is inherent, the vast majority of medical complaints. So having a variety of tools at our disposal was very gratifying prior to the nineteen eighties physicians were trained to have stained from prescribing opiates, less absolutely necessary. But that attitude change when the notion that opioids quote art addictive as previously thought began to take hold a growing population medical professionals started champing. They're used to treat everything spring ankles to tooth extractions and use them at high quantities at high frequency bolstered by the narrow claim published in the New England Journal medicine by porter and Jake and in pain by Portnoy in Foley, Leauge. It's physicians starting writing prescriptions for potent narcotics, and sending patients down a path of addiction and or dependency, in nineteen ninety-five, produced arm, suitable introduce Oxycontin, as we discussed this was allowed by the FDA to put problematic information on labeling with packaging. The claim the drug was virtually not addictive. Here goes on. It went the growing. Feel the pain management endeavor to de stigmatize what they called Opio phobia, fear of opiates many medical professionals were played handsome to promote the drug use that report knowing himself served as a powerful ineffective spokesperson for cotton doctors were told they needn't worry about addiction because as we said before a fax were countered by the pain, anesthesiologist became managers of giant, chronic pain, clinics, some well-meaning physicians, but some crooked some open storefronts clinics preying on the injured and the addicted these pill mills as they were called responsible for prescribing staggering amounts of narcotics all entered no questions asked. But you have to remember pain was, what the patient said it was. And so pain control was, what the patient said it was. So why did you need a doctor? You just needed the patient to look at a menu and point at what he or she needed to control their pain. This was the philosophy of the day, of course many these maintained cash only transactions. The joint commission for accreditation on healthcare, which accredits, all health, Gorgan, ization, also chimed in demanding the doctors treat pain is the fifth vital sign pain management societies and organizations demanded action on behalf of their patients evil doctors like me were not treating pain adequately and worse yet. Taking people off painkillers. How dare I do that many states adopted intractable pain, ax, which removes sanctions against prescribing large amounts patients now expected and demanded large amounts of drugs, physicians were trained to ferret out addiction. This all created a perfect varmint for severe diction developed. Nothing ends a patient. Encounter quicker than pulling out your prescription pad and fighting with an addict is terribly time, consuming, and extremely emotionally, draining chronic pain. Patients are often very difficult time consuming. Doctors just don't have it. So the prescription pads were readily opened, and they were being courage to do so, adding to the physician concerned was spectres of loss. Shoots holding physicians responsible for inadequate treatment of pain. Not only were these malpractice lawsuits, but these were criminal suits, and civil suits in California, two thousand one doctor wing Chen was ordered to pay one point five million dollars to the children of patient dial under his care, the jury found him guilty of elder abuse, because he suffered the patient suffered unnecessary pain prior to his death this, and several other decisions sending physicians into criminal courts sent shockwaves through the medical community physicians were afraid now not to treat pain and said everything to the pain management. Doctors who denied the existence of addiction. Now, the vast majority of people who are currently addicted to opioids contrast their diction to prescription pills, legally well meaningfully prescribed, people received at initial prescription for minor injuries that and continued, many of them now are gone. They have died of opiate addiction opiates began being prescribed very aggressively in the bin. Nineteen nineties and the incidence of addiction exploded as doctors realize it began to render their patients dependent or addicted they would start to cut off the supply. It was there that the Mexican drug dealers would wander in patiently waiting outside, for instance support beatings for methadone treatment centers, free samples, dispense reeling in the patient's Sam Kiwanis system that I tried to describe in dreamland is actually a system that's fairly fairly widespread certainly in the Los Angeles area. People people having delivery system, heroin allows for that opioids allow for a business model situation where you can set up a business really along business model, Bris principles. So you're trying to keep that customer happy trying to convenience is very important. I focus on one group though. A group of guys out of one small town in a small state in Mexico called nyree than him of the town is how lease go. These guys are important to this story I because they perfected the system and many of these guys came up from this town and surrounding villages to work in it. Sometimes drivers delivering the dope. Sometimes as operators taking Radic's phone calls. Sometimes these guys owning crews outright, and, or delivering supplying those, those crews, well, whatever the case most the guys from that town got involved in this. They perfected it they got it down to almost a science. And then, crucially because there were so many of them, they all from the same town, they could not kill each other in San Fernando Valley, where they started right there from the same town. So they're gonna create problems back home, if they do that there was a lot of competition. But oftentimes, they're related to the competition, cousins or brothers in law would have. And so these guys did what any capitalist enterprise does when it begins to see declining profitability and that is look for new markets, and so they expanded and it was that expansion that makes them crucial to this story. I think they, they began to look for new, I was Pomona Ontario from the valley out to Pomona Ontario to Pasadena than San Diego than it was a Reno Portland Phoenix area than another way was like al-muhaya Denver, Boise Salt Lake etcetera all these different. And so they begin through the late beginning late eighties through into really till today. But, but certainly, the nineties were a great time of enormous expansion. They're always looking for new markets and every place they'd go they would find the following. They would find a town. This was an early to mid nineteen ninety s where that number of addicts were static. It was not a growing market. And so in order to do. That to function. They had to start stealing addicts from each other because there's three crew say, there's one hundred addicts and Salt Lake City, whatever it happens to be you have to start stealing from other people, and the way you do that, as you become really great at marketing, and convenience and customer service because you want that other that those, those ads come to us. So you bring me you bring me five new customers. Give you fifty free balloons of heroin. You know, that kind of come on constant they were fully fully into the expansion mode when this promotion of cottage painkillers by modern legitimate American medicine began to take place in the mid to late nineteen nineties, and by very weird coincidence. They just happened to have leapt the Mississippi River and landed one guy guy in particular, in Columbus, Ohio, Columbus was becoming the great one of the great centers of. Pill promotion in, in this in this pan revolution. That was taken place in the late nineteen ninety they just happen to, to collide. They're, they're aggressive marketing, and expansion collided, with his very aggressive marketing of pain, pills as the solution to every Americans pain of any kind with which was going to be risk free non addictive. If you were in pain cetera et cetera. And so these two forces, the reason I read about the Halas go boys from police go nyree is not because they're the only heroin traffickers from Mexico there. Others. These are the they they're important because they're the ones who who collide with this, this new promotion of pain, pills and together you begin to find that area. I people switching from pain pill that they're using three or two three hundred milligrams a day to the far far cheaper, and yet Justice potent black tar heroin, sold by, by these guys from Holly's go as ox. Cotton's popularity grew the pills became currency many parts of the country. The street value made selling them to other addicts practically resistible than they could get the lower cost heroin. Get the of course, the same better affects so many seamlessly switched over to black tar heroin when their doctors cut them off. And when they started selling their pills treating paint successfully, of course, every physician wishes for. But unlike vital signs paying a subjective experience pain is a sensation. But it's drive me complex combination of physical, emotional, and psychological processes, Dr Jon Bon Akot knew this when he opened the first pain clinic in nineteen sixty Sam kinison, John in university of Washington, is really the, the pioneer in this country, I think of pain management, he was the first one to put a lot of thought into it. He, he suffered from chronic pain, himself, you had been a pro wrestler, and college and had cauliflower ears and very painful suffered from that all his life and he began the. First clinic really that, that seriously studied pain, at the this was at the university of Washington. And, and I'm not sure exactly why. But, but it very naturally, I think occurred to him and his colleagues as he as he expanded the center that pain in each is different in each individual, and therefore each individual needs to be treated with an array of treatments that, that may differ widely from one person to the next from this person from this man to that woman to this child. And they developed this idea that really it was, it was a wide array of things could be acupuncture, could be physical therapy. Big one cognitive behavioral therapy massage swimming diet, and then some degree. Probably usually fairly small amount of opioid painkillers could also be part of the mix for the particularly for the most serious cases. Advocating a multi disciplinary approach to treating pain, his clinic, employed, Donnelly doctors. But Alex specialistic occupational therapist, physical therapist. Neuro biofeedback specialists at college of social workers all endeavoring to discover treat the cause of pain. Not just the symptoms spite evidence at this kind of treatment was more effective, and remain more effective insurance companies refused to pay it seems that they would rather pay for a single visit and opiate prescription much less expensive Sam Kiwanis than shirts companies were crucial in the story too because they used to reimburse for all that. And so, Dr pain doctor would say, gee, let's see there's a I've got all these tools in my toolbox to treat your pain. So let's see, we're gonna try let's say half dozen. So they're six treatments and and, and could be again chiropractor medicine could be could be a physical therapy could be a few a moderate amount of opioids and the insurance companies reimburse for all that. And, and what they found was that, that worked over the. Long-term that worked, but that they had all to be put into play. You couldn't just take one or two, you had have all six, and you begin to tinker with it, it would be a, it would be a patient. Doctor relationship of just the kind, the probably so important in medicine where you're listening, where you're saying, okay, we're going to we're going to dial back this a little bit. And maybe up that'll, you know, it was it was a tinkerer process that took place over years. And then it became impossible the, the insurance companies began to cut back on what they reimbursed for that was huge in this whole story after while doctors found themselves in a position where I'm being asked to cure all Americans pain and increasingly have, but one tool to do in, that is the narcotic painkiller pill and because the insurance companies won't reimburse for job counselling marital counseling, psychological counseling, pay physical therapy, all these different things they would not reimburse for in this left. The doctor with really just nothing in the toolbox. But pain, pills, and patients, of course, we're also content with taking a pill, though. They did not recognize what was happening to them. Doctors ignored what they knew about opiates continuously citing research published decades prior fortunately treating the symptoms rather than the cause is still a preference. But the mid two thousands millions upon millions of chronic pain patients were treated with opioids the United States, consumes, roughly eighty percent of the world's opiates in two thousand sixteen there were sixty thousand opioid related deaths once addiction Kohl's people lose their capacity to choose. They become slaves to the drug Bruce yet is lack of documentation patient, follow up typically in very poor reliant, on patients and attics own assessments, which are on reliable. There's been a shocking lack of interest in tracking the benefits and negative effects of the drug Sam canonise. No, I think that there was not that understanding the pan pills are, are this double edged sword. They work in certain certain very limited ways, and certain. Certain like I would say boxes, you can use them in, and then, then they end up being a far far more trouble endanger than than they're worth. And, and that is has to do with length of time. I think that you're exposed to them. Dosage of think is also part of it, and then also I do believe they tend to push people is my impression anyway. They tend to push people into isolation which I further aggravates, whatever pain problems, they so people are kind of all alone with their pills. They tend to shut down when it comes to connect connection with the outside world. And I think that narcotics promote that to some degree. And particularly when there's nothing else you know, when it's just getting the pills that is not to say, like to add, the that they have no role, and that they may that they have nor that they have no role in chronic pain. Idle, I'm not a doctor, but it's been my impr-. Russian that there are there is a small limited role for narcotic opioid painkillers in the in the treatment of chronic pain. The problem is up to now almost every chronic pain patient in America has had one tool offered to him or her, and that is the pill, and that means that they're very, very high levels of, of, of dope. All the while there was no scientific evidence that opiates treated or improved chronic pain. Rider saying created the perfect storm that resulted in the current opioid epidemic. It's easy to place. The majority of the blame on drug companies. But the end of the day, the patient only has access to the drugs, because the doctor wrote a prescription, and unfortunately, changing attitudes about opioids combined with the promotion of Oxycontin, by producer Ceuta calls created the perfect storm doctors were complicit in this crisis blithely hung their hats on the scant evidence provided the publications way back in the nineteen eighties. It is book, dreamland author, Sam Canoas, interviews, Dr Alex Kahana recent director of. A pain clinic, Dr bona ca started way back in the nineteen sixties with such high hopes in nineteen sixty. He summed up the situation with some opening pragmatism. He believes that the US medical system is good at fighting disease, but awful leading people to wellness. They don't know how to do it and the path, they offer actually makes people worse Raleigh where the drug related death continued to make headlines when someone famous dies of an overdose but such high profile cases only small fraction of the deaths that occur annually. In fact, the national student drug abuse attributes more than one hundred fifteen deaths per day to opioids and opiates the opioid epidemic claims thousands of lives every year. But many people don't know that these deaths are often the result of lethal combination of not just opiates but opiates with benzodiazepines David Sheff, the problem is, you know, everyone of these drugs is incredibly dangerous harmful potentially can kill. But what happens is most people don't just take drug. I mean if people are in circumstance. Environments where there are other drugs available in their often are than likely, take more. Take whatever's available sometimes people will actively look for combinations that, you know, give them what they're looking for. Whatever kind of high it is that stay experienced in you, combine drugs, and they're much more dangerous and those two in particular are responsible for many, many overdose deaths Benz os as they're commonly called in class of drugs, that are widely prescribed for their sedating properties anti anxiety properties, while no medication climate. Librium Xanax valium. The interact with the gab receptor by binding to the Gabba chloride channel on the cell surface, this causes an inhibitory action that reduces neuronal excitability and produces a comic effect on the brain benzodiazepines should be used for short period of time, because they are highly addictive long-term use can result in tolerance and dependence you can also read to them ineffective and make symptoms worse people end up in chronic withdrawal. So they. Can't sleep there more anxious. They use more and cycle ensues. People are dependent on opioids tend to experience chronic opioid drawl symptoms, which manifests itself as exiled and sleep disturbances, and back pain. So doctors who are not trained as a diction specialist often misinterpret, the reason for this as an executive disorder and they prescribed benzodiazepines, the combination makes the attic feel better, but then the Bengals have their own withdrawal, and we continue in the cycle of escalating, use doctors and doctors endorsed esscalation research supports this treatment, because it does modulate some pain in the insular cortex firing associated with, but not in the long-term again, short-term pain control. But the fact that opioids and benzoate concurrently have disastrous results often prescribed together, new sparingly, they can be affective for some paintings -iety, but unfortunately, this regimen often leads to escalate a dosing but. Issue with the combination is that they are deadly combination opiates suppressed respiration benzodiazepine, suppress restorations both affect the central nervous systems control apparatus for respiration, but together they are synergistic. In other words, they are much more powerful than either alone. It's hard to overdose on an opiate orally, hard to reduce on a benzodiazepine orally, easy to overdose on the two together. And of course, once basic bodily functions are compromised. The brain is deprived of oxygen the cardiovascular system shuts down and people are dying. It should be noted that taking these drugs together can be extremely dangerous. Even when taken as directed this is, again, the problem, they took it just the way the doctor told them to, and they still died the medical community is now being courage to avoid this combination in two thousand sixteen the United States food and Drug administration issued a black box warning nearly four hundred products to warn about the dangers of combining his. Medications the same year the centers for disease control prevention issued guidelines on opiates, which urge physicians avoid prescribing the potentially lethal combination. And yet, they continue to do it patients who enter addiction treatment report, higher rates of concurrent opioid benzel, use this population requires close supervision, or to have any chance at a successful recovery as with opioids the use of benzoate can lead to physical dependence makes functioning without the difficult. But drawl these medication must be medically manage stopping abruptly causes horrible anxiety and even seizure. Psychosis post acute withdrawal syndrome, which is sort of an escalating Zayed's will ask for up to a year. Sleep disturbance, certainly for six months Shelley's, the average patient now coming into addiction treatment on. There is no average patient anymore. It's, it's a complete menagerie of people young people aged people also, you can omic status all classes, all reasons. All. All different types of reasons why they became addicted how they got strung out. You know what I'm seeing a lot too is these later stage, pain, medication patients who started mixing alcohol with pain, medication because they couldn't get enough to kill the pain, because it would be being created by the opiates, so they started drinking, and then they became, you know, staggering alcoholics, you know, and then underneath aspect of it is these pain meds that all started the whole thing would opioids or benzodiazepines or abuse separately, physical. Dependence, addiction is likely, but concurrent abuse is potentially deadly before taking any of these medication. It is critical to understand their potential for misuse abuse at lethally even short-term use can cause physical dependence and buffet. It'll if your physician suggesting this combination, extreme care and low dose must be taken to avoid the pitfalls. Every patient must actively participate in his or her own healthcare, just because the doctor prescribed it doesn't mean that it's appropriate. Particularly if you have a history of dick. Or a family history of addiction educating oneself about the risks and benefits of the treatment, being offered as vital when it comes to making the right decision or my guest, Dr birth address, author, David Sheff Sam pianist, Dr anonymity in addiction specialist shows break tune in next week as for the drug companies impact on the opiate crisis show, PO and the staff doctor dot com. This series together. You can read it in its entirety. Dr drew dot com. Thank y'all. We'll see next time.

pain painkillers heroin United States David Sheff Dr Russell Portnoy Dr Kathleen Foley cancer Dr Anna limpkey Dr Jacqueline Carly opium Mexico Sam Kiwanis Oxycontin Nestor Salt Lake City Sam joint commission
Dr. David Rabin

Dr. Drew Podcast

57:01 min | 8 months ago

Dr. David Rabin

"Thanks for listening to the doctor. Drew podcast on podcast. One podcast one presents. This is a collect call from sing-sing is John Lennon. I'm locked up. I selling drugs and committing murder also beater freshwater magazines so a writer and I'm prisoner. Imagine trying to stay focused and talk about issues of substance skeets slamming screaming blaring in the background new episodes every Wednesday on spotify. Podcast one and apple podcasts. Everybody welcome to the PODCAST All I don't think anything usual applies right now. So let me just dispense with all the usual rejoinders. I hope everyone is doing well through this trying times. The Chinese curse or something I think of often which is may you live in interesting times? I think we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA do well with this but it's not gonna be without pain of all sorts economic and physical for those people who actually get the infection so we are recording this obviously in the shadow of the krone outbreak. We are all quarantined away and by Zoom. I Have Dr David Ray-ban David welker program. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it and and so good to be here and huge fan. Run my childhood all my God. That's that's a big deal. Because you're about to geek out of all your training so let me let me and it's a perfect time for us to be talking Hopefully people can gain something from our conversation for the time so Dr Ayman Has Spent Fourteen years researching treatments to combat the negative effects of stress on physical and mental health? And I don't know about everybody else. But I'm feeling it right now. He's a board certified psychiatrist also a PhD neuroscience where he's a translational neuroscientist and inventor specializing in treatment. Ptsd depression anxiety substance use. We're GONNA talk a little bit later about his research with hallucinogens. Which was the original reason. I Sought out Dr able to be a guest on the show but with all this going on in the world and by the way he's working with maps jail and their see another under really leading researchers on psychedelics used. Md Ama in therapy these things. We'll talk about it but right now it is. The it's the Apollo and wearable technology that uses neuroscience touch and vibration to combat the negative effects of stress. The website is APOLLO NEURAL DOT COM. Apollo twitter is add. Apollo H. R. V. That about summarize it that sums it up Dr Drew All Right. So let's talk about stress. Let's talk about the spent half my day. Talking people off the ledge. It is stressful time. Likewise Yeah Yeah I think I think this is one of the most stressful times We've had in the last few decades. I think that it's important to acknowledge that it's important of knowledge what that stress does to us It's you know it. Increases Heart rate increase. Their reading rate it makes us sweat more makes us our thoughts moon faster and I think most importantly that stress over time it impairs our body's ability to enter recovery states. So what I mean by. This is and this is really critical. I think for all of us understand and I wish I had been taught us in medical schools something. I figured out my later. Reading and studies of the autonomic nervous system which is the balance of the stress and the threat in the safety response system and basically the sympathetic system is responsible for helping us maintain survival in situations that require fight flight or freeze responses to get to a place of safety while we're under acute survival threat Many of us feel that way right now. We feel like we're under a survival threat that we have to constantly protect ourselves. Be Hyper vigilant. Anything around us. They could possibly result in US getting sick. And this what this does is it shuts down our recovery response system which requires safety to actively. This is the system. That's responsible for recovery sleep creativity. Reproduction Digestion Empathy all of these things that our bodies do that make our lives enjoyable and warning and fun and so what happens. Is it up to us to remind ourselves in as many ways as possible One of the best ways used breath work training meditation. Yoga mindfulness biofeedback and things of this nature. Some other techniques include things like Apollo in psychedelics But ultimately it's up to us to figure out how to build strategies that strengthen the balance in our bodies balancing our minds between these two nervous systems to remind ourselves that we are safe. Were not in an acute survival. Tried to scariest things are were actually okay and we actually are in a place where we have time to spend with our families. That's something that who would have thought we wanna know what had happened right. Everything's kind of slowing down. There's there's many different ways to look at this situation and I think that's cold was calling it a four sabotage tab and we all these years that we're going to have our but pay our debt to the Sabbath for a few months. Well although I a couple of things I We have I started actually spoke to Stephen Porges and Alan Shore Gary if you can give me the show numbers on those. They're out from behind the pay wall now so you can listen to them. As importers of course the polly Bagel theory and really elucidated some of the mechanisms whereby the person pathetic system which is part of the automatic nervous system gives us our free response and how it can be a problem sometimes particularly for those of us that had trauma early on in childhood and Dr Alan Shore Young Guy that worked on this when the earliest research well co-leaders it'd be information of all this gary deal. Those numbers chance scary. There lost Gary goes show. Sorry Yup I am here. Alan shore is episodes. Sixty five possibly more. But I'm not that's I what I'm seeing and I think that was an important one. Okay and then. Porzingis was sixty three ninety and more recently three ninety five but back to the the fourth Sabbath I. He actually part of the problem with Uh spending a lot of time together is everybody is in that automatic heightened state. I've noticed actually in a time when we all should be coming together. I'm I'm witnessing and I'm hearing about lots of ability and conflicts just the time when we should be killed during our time together. People are too geared up right. And that's and that sort of the. That's a threat pathway. Really taking hold right and it's up to us to to remember that there are two. There are multiple choices with the way we approached this threat The way we're approaching it with constant fear and hyper vigilance were constantly overwhelmed and surrounded by overwhelming stimuli news People talking about people dying and the contagious of the of the illness. All these things are are really scary to be surrounded by anybody hearing about that stuff. All the time would be expected to be stressed in irritable. That's not unusual so it's important to remember that when we're surrounded by all that stuff. It's normal to feel afraid scared irritable but I think the opportunity here is that is the opportunity to be grateful for recognizing that this could be so much worse and that this is hopefully justo based on what we're hearing. This is hopefully just a warning sign for us to get our butts in gear and really start taking care of not only our house but the health of our communities and health of the world is a whole because this is really a sign of is the as you said in some ways right. It's a four Sabbath. We've been neglecting a recovery. We've been neglecting our day of rest. Now it's also neglecting our health health ourselves our communities and our our earth hole. And so you know I think I am when I'm really hoping is. This is a wakeup call. All of us to take a step back and say what? Can we do to be grateful for this time to use it as best as possible to improve? Our health decrease our chances of getting sick to build resilience and to just you know really think sex think again about what we want out of our lives. Yeah it's funny. I was thinking about this today. I noticed In where are you where you calling us from? I'm calling you from Monterey California Monterey so I noticed in in New York City today I've got a lot of people I love the city and it's it's the population that's getting sick. There is are people that are sort of chronically. We're making a big population or chronically. Ill people and we you know sort of these horrible living environments that maybe aren't even working and exercising and I don't have a lot of engagement and sort are really feeling worthwhile about themselves and so are taking care of themselves why these people are getting sick now. Right and I I don't know what we do about that. Because that's a population. That's hard to get mobilized. That's the really tough problem and I think you know I. It's not. There are no easy answers to that other than creating better education as much can and I think honestly it's people like you and I and the healthcare you know the senior healthcare providers the the people who are in a lot of ways elders in our society nowadays right that are the people who have the most education that have the most of the story can step up and say you know we would understand how you got to wear you got and that's not your fault but here's how you can get to a better place that you would rather be. Let's figure out where you would rather be. We're not gonNA tell you should be. Let's ask you where would you rather be? Let's figure that out most of most of these people that we're talking about are chronically. Ill would rather feel better most of the time. And so it's The practice I think what we actually using Substance Abuse Disorders nowadays In for the last three years which is motivational interviewing. It's helping to understand. Just empathy helping understand where somebody wants to go with their lives. And then what helping them understand. What they you get there and over time as we start the brain is not as complicated naked out. The it's really a practice makes perfect system and the more we gradually practice Small Habits and and small positive changes those lead to bigger positive. Changes OVER TIME. At practice makes perfect system. Kicks in we start feeling a hell of a lot better pretty quick until Apollo is sort of a way to tap into that by helping people feel safe enough to make change. I think part of the thing that we oftentimes forget is that threat in constant fear. Make US afraid of everything including change itself and so how do we embrace recovery and embrace positive change in our lives when the the constant threat makes us feel like we have to have tunnel vision on the same habits? We've always hat and the literature. Echoes Scientific Literature shows that without a doubt. It's always harder to make change Michael. You're stressed out It's hard to meditate already. Haven't it's harder to learn meditative you already have a diagnosis of PTSD right. And so what what Apollo and the reason we built Apollo for this purpose was if we could prime the body to feel safe and present and in the moment I remind by sending a signal just like somebody holding your hand on a bad giving you a hug on a bad day at tells the brain or reminds the brain. Hey wait a minute. I'm safe enough right now to pay attention to the feeling of this gentle vibration on my leg or my arm. That means that I'm not actually going to die. I'm not actually under threat in this specific moment and that's exactly the way. The deep breathing works when we take a deep breath intentionally. It instantly tells our brain as we pay attention to the feeling of air coming into our nose in down our our our windpipe into our lungs that we have the time to pay attention to that feeling and so we have to be safe enough to have the time to pay attention feeling. We can't be running for a lion in that moment. And so that instantly a sub totally subconscious safety signals the brain that every time we breathe there. Every time we practice soothing touch or empathic listening any kind of soothing technique it constantly serves to retrain pathway. So that we feel safe in situations we used to feel threatened in and over time we start to be able to change more effectively. Does that makes sense. I Yeah I WANNA get in the way then all this stuff. So I'm I'm guessing. It seems like attentional mechanisms have a large role to play here and I adamantly used to talk about habits like two years ago we started talking about habits and how there wasn't enough conversation about habits and how habits are formed and how are sort of crystallized and you've moved from one habit to the next star. I want you to get into the weeds a little bit about that but before we do. I'm interested in the in the vibration. So I'm guessing. We're activating the DORSAL. Lateral free puddle. Cortex so we can start to feel felt in the insular. Cortex is sort of the mechanism. You guys are activating so I can't tell you for sure because the device has meddle in it and so he can't put it into FM Mariah machine. But I go I can tell you we've done. Eeg Studies Graham And we've done. Ekg What we do is we have like a time. Sync functional neuroscience lab that. We've done this working. So we basic what that means in fancy terms in less THAN ANTI GERMS IS. It means we measure brainwaves. We measured heart heart rate pattern through. Ekg We measured respiratory patterns through Respiratory Band Sweat Responses Pupil Elementary I movement and reactively and physical movement and sometimes a couple of other things all in tandem all same time when people doing different tasks and so it allows you to put together not just once one set of data but a signature of the body's doing at any given moment in response to positive stimuli threat stressful cognitive tasks physical tasks whatever it may be and so what we perceive to be doing and the reason we think it works so well the way does is because I actually mapped out the touch. Pathway I and my my work at the University of Pittsburgh it starting in two thousand fourteen. I was researching. How what makes people stop ruminating and I was working with. Is What again. He's not gonNA stop brooming. Brooding brooding thoughts negative intrusive thinking and what was really interesting to me about that. Was that my colleague who worked with a bit of time. Dr Greg Siegel at the University of Pittsburgh is a psychologist cog nurse. Client is WHO's very bellred will publish. And he actually discovered that rumination as a trait something that net negative intrusive thoughts at many of us half if you have them all the time. You're much less likely to recover from mental illness particularly depression and so I started researching at all. What stops rumination. I've ruminate right. We all do what stops rumination better than anything else. Somebody giving you a hug or walking into a room when you're having a bad day and at your favorite song is playing right that kind of thing just radically changes perspective and attention away from the negative intrusive or the source of the negative intrusive thoughts to something in the environment. That reminds us that. We're safe enough to to calm down to be present in the moment and so the pathway that activates is actually seems to be the insulin. I knock the prefrontal CORTEX I so we built interesting. And that and that's the pathway of touch it goes through a spinal column track called laminated which is which was discovered by a number of folks was most well characterized by a neuroscientist. Need Bud Craig. Who does incredible work mapping out the pathway in monkeys primates and showed that this pathway specifically conveys lambda one in the spine spinal column emotional context of of of touch and we basically sought out to to figure out if touch activates this pathway. In the way that but is that but Craig is saying in all of these incredible publications. Can we create a technology that reliably activates that pathway interrupts rumination response by boosting? Send signals a safety by sending these rhythmic patterns basically music that I compose from neuroscience for your skin instead of your ears and will that remind the body that it's safe enough to start enter a meditative state or effectively deep breathing state or a calm clear focus state and that's effectively from all the literature that we read and everything that we've put together that's effectively what we were able to do. We haven't shown we haven't shown the exact locations that are turned on yet but it works just like human touch and that's the way even touch works is. It's it's goes to the emotional insulin. I that the insulin it block inhibits tippety. That's overreactive to fear and threat. And then it's activates. The prefrontal court pre prefrontal cortex in the frontal cortex is responsible for that sense of strengthening and identity and agency in autonomy. It helps us make better decisions in situation so if anybody's interested in Bud Craig And this is not sort of saint hard called. How do you feel an intercept of moment with your neurobiological South? Where he really maps out. All these these ideas and I was recommended this book by Gary helped me. I'm blank on the name of the neuroscientist of Physician Dr Geek out over We've had in here with Sean. Carroll can help me. I'm trying to look it up on this isn't spark talking about I pattern here twice. She's also a musician. Interest this contest interest interest biscottis Interest recommended bud stuff to me and I ran through some article that she sent me and then I got the book. This is not gonNA faint of Heart. This is very difficult. Neuroscience but man is impressive and the fact that the inflow was crossed over with the model for track and The Atlanta one was really surprising to me. And do you have a philosophical interpretation of what it is about billing and touch? I guess it's interests of dealing and dealing in the sense of scanning our are Gropius after system. Bits all feeling right yeah. That's a really great question. I mean I also thought that was fascinating and I'm so glad familiar with literature because so few people are and I know it I I knew the real Iran to it is headed instinct from the pain and addiction world that we were not paying enough attention to the inflow cortex I just knew that was the answer and and She directed me in this direction. That was out there. It is there it is. That's what I'm waiting for about doubters. Young Yeah I love it. That's exactly what drove me into this into this area of the brain and so interestingly I think what where I sort of answered found the answers to my questions was looking at the evolutionary neurobiology of emotion so more. I'm sorry you're not geeked out of Diane please more so I think it's basically that you know going back through ancient primates. If you you know from humans all the way down one of the major things that you see changing the brain two of the major things I should say are the structure of Cortex so the CORTEX is that outer like five or six layers of the brain. That is really responsible for storing all of our memories and experiences over the course of our lives. It's incredibly complex in humans and thinking and reasoning and all that and we have a layer we have a middle layer that I kind of perceive an integrative layer that the great apes don't have Right And I think you're referring to classroom So another another area. That was actually. I think of the brain. That's very very hard to see was discovered. I think by Christoph Cockayne Francis Crick who worked with Eric. Kandel who air can dell discovered the mechanism of learning and memory for which he won the Nobel right at the semantic level. He he is. He's got some great books out there too right and so I think what's really fascinating so maybe taking a step back. What's really fascinating about the evolutionary evolutionary neurobiology? To me starts with Eric handles work because Eric Hand del decided to go back and say are a if I were going to figure out learning memory. Let's go back really far first and see if other animals even like ancient sea snails. That are three hundred million years old. Make Memories in similar ways and respond to threat and safety signals in similar ways to humans and ultimately that's what he found and that that basically the way that in a police lia three hundred million euros see snails neurons function to to grow in response and change in response to the threat and neutral and Different kinds of positive stimuli are relatively the same as the way that we do it. Some of the neurotransmitters work slightly differently in snails us but overwhelmingly the functioning of neurons. Same Sorry you go ahead and so taking that one. Step forward right that that shows us is made worse special as humans. But we're not that's actual our brains may be working away. That's more similar than we think. Fear Way we learned fear the way we learn to respond to positive things. Our Environment and neutral experiences environment is the same as the way that most animals do and so that part is important to recognize some knowledge the similarities as much as it is the differences so then we moved to the differences in the differences. Are The classroom. The the a thick the hugely fit cortex that's fully developed in humans. The emotional system right the insulin. And so what's really interesting is as you map out the growth of the insulin. Over time and by time I mean from starting with ancient ancient apes and end reptiles all the way through Great Apes Bonobos and then to humans and children and all the way to adult humans. What we actually see is that the insulin grows significantly the the insulin. Being the what we call the LIMBIC CORTEX the entire emotional cortex in there. Some other parts of the two. But it's again part of this. What we call the cortisol structures of the brain that are essential to identity and the insular expands into three layers that are relatively the same in great apes and the nobles as they are in humans and although very similar in animals that are more advanced that have community in their lives like dolphins elephants animals. We tend to think of as having more human characteristics in their communities more selfless characteristics and so was really interesting. Is it splits into re layers. And he later they get bigger and bigger as you get closer to humans and older humans. They're the biggest but ultimately Bay You can watch their growth progression over time it and but but Craig talks on the work and the three layers are incredibly interesting. The first layer is the posterior insult which is responsible for home. I getting a strikes while interro session feelings of our body physically right to when you feel your we gotta go when I when we say I have a gut feeling it is registered cortes. Exactly and that was I thought. One of the coolest parts about is basically saying hey gut feelings are real guys like let's pay attention to this. There's a neurobiology here. It's interros option in it's registered in the Post cheerier insular then the second layer the middle layer is responsible for introspection. So it's looking looking inside ourselves at ourselves. More metaphysically not physical body but how we think how we feel and why And doing deep dives are ourselves and then the third layer is the anterior insular in the anterior is possibly at least for me the most interesting because the answer insults responsible for embassy in this and it shows us that entity is not something that is required like. It's not something. People are not capable of some people. Think I cannot be epidemic. Well too bad buddy. It's literally hardwired into your break. Even psychopaths have that they still have it. They just haven't practiced you know it's really again. That's where the Eric Kendall side comes in right so it's about interest inch water. We practicing if we don't you know you remember the saying if you don't use it you lose it. That is how the brain works. If you don't work out your muscles if you don't train your brain your memory your remote your emotionality your sensitivity your empathy as much as we train the parts of our brain that our society tells us we care about their focus on productivity. If we don't focus on the other stuff than we forget that it's there and eventually just kind of becomes dormant. It's always there though because it's literally represented physically hardwired into parts of our brains. Some of US feel like we cannot feel our bodies will. That's just because you haven't practiced it. It just takes time in practice to get us back to that state so again. That's part of why we created Apollo. Was that if you can provide. Somebody was something that can tap into that system from what we call bottom up from the body first then you prime the body for change and then the mind follows and so you know the the you know what Dr Damasio Calls Descartes's error that we made a mind body. Dual ISM is fundamentally flawed that the the brain is not just embedded in a body. It has an automatic nervous system that's also embedded in the body feeding it information so in a real sense. It's it's the human mind is a brain body exactly and I think one of the most fundamental parts of we were talking about. What can we do now right Especially people who are stuck in apartments ord who are stuck really struggling What can we do now is? We can recognize that one of the most fundamental things that is causing us what we call. Jeez or discomfort or symptoms of any kind is the fact that we deny the inherent intricate connections between the mind and the body. It's one of the most fundamental self deceptions which leads to a self misunderstanding. And sometimes for some people self hatred self avoidance all of these things that that prevent us from prioritizing going inside ourselves to figure out what are we really capable of you know who are we really We have to be curious to allow that curiosity to to be nurtured within ourselves. By you know reminding ourselves in. It's just us you know there's nothing to be afraid of. This is our opportunity. Any opportunity is is like an opportunity for us to be grateful for making it to this moment and then using that energy to help us make the most of that moment in that moment as Rhonda's says be here. Now Yeah right be here. Now is famous book by Ron Johnson. And you just back to the insular cortex again there's another interesting aspect to the front to back or anterior to post. Your structure is dead in our. You know. I think a lot of people know that on our Cortex we have. These essentially among these are representations of our body along the surface of our CORTEX. Birds Motor Motor and sensory function on the opposite side of her body. But we have something similar apparently in the insulin where there's little among Carolina's or they're they're much much vaguer and they go from vague to more vivid according to buy Do you make any thunder. What to make of that? It's just fascinating to me. It's just like there's there's days feelings and then their feelings that are more vividly located in our body. Is it just that just our constructed? Well that's a really good question. Dr Drew I don't know if I have an answer to that I could. I would hypothesize from from. I'm guessing it's just evolution. They probably the more. The clearest stuff is just the more evolved stuff and we don't move cast off or w mechanisms we just built stuff on top of them so I I think that is a very valid hypothesis. I think that there is a second hypothesis which is equally valid which is that the degree to which inexperience meaningful directly influences. How intensely or how a tightly it's encoded into our memory and when we're talking about emotionality or emotional content experiences in a lot of ways the emotional content is that is that other dimension that we oftentimes forget about or ignore. That really is what ads profound meaning to our experiences in our lives and so I think that I going. Actually this ties into psychedelic Work which is that. I don't know if you know Franz volume wider But Dr Volt wider is one of the leading researchers on Suicide and the mechanism upbeat in the brain. And I WANNA I WANNA get into that now so perfect transition and so. I think one thing that's been really interesting that also ties back into our study of mental health in Western. In general Western medicine is Serotonin and the SEROTONIN RECEPTOR. System and in psychedelics one of the major serotonin receptors has become a prominent a prominent interest. I should say is the five. Ht to center part of the reason why this receptor so interesting is because it was found several years ago that this receptor is the receptor that is bound by LSD and Md May and suicide by Franz will wider and some other scientists I believe all of them. I think Europe and what's even more fascinating. Franz Vala wider took it a step further. I think it was in twenty seventeen and he said if all of these I want he's I want to know what the cascade is. I want to receptors are activated. I maybe there's one receptor that is not dopamine secreted or increased by PSYCHEDELIC medicine And powerful positive experiences we know that lots of neurotransmitters change when people have these psychedelic mystical profound transformed experiences. What if there's one Trent neurotransmitter receptor? That's at the top of that chain. That ACTIVATES DOWNSTREAM CASCADE. Turns all the other stuff off. So he thought we'd know. Lsd suicide in India may bind five eight she to a. Let's just block five. Hd Two eight people so he gave people in a double blind randomized placebo controlled experiment LSD instill sided and also Tanzer and kit or placebo and Catanzaro is orally active chemical. That doesn't really have any effects other than it blocks five. Ht and what's so interesting. Is that people took Catanzaro in LSD or cancer and still and importantly these people did not know they were taking concern these people Kapeta completely attenuated or blocked shift in meaning from the experience of taking psychedelic medicine and basically when that block in meaning changed. They didn't experience any strange experience at all. They had no as we say. State of consciousness from just blocking one receptor. What's so fascinating about? That is is that when you really getting back to a reductionist perspective when you really look at. What makes a PSYCHEDELIC experience powerful? It's the emotional. Meaning fullness of that experience and how much of it is sort of brought forth or manifested in that status safety That is curated by ideally therapist or a clinical team and or in some cases a shaman. And so that safe experience allows these meaningful emotional things to come up and if we don't perceive we don't allow our brains perceive a shift in meaning then effectively the entire psychedelic paranormal or altered. State experience is completely eliminated. So why ask so? Interesting is because meaning is now located to one receptor and Wade out the way that we know that is because Essex Arise have a very interesting side effect. So s arise or selective Serotonin reuptake inhibitors. There used frequently and prescribed for depression and anxiety. they are one of the most over prescribed drugs in the US. And what is really unfortunate about them? Is it as a side effect? An unintended side effect of taking them. They cause a feelings of numbness and the most common representation of feelings of numbness is inability to orgasm achieve peak. Pleasure states so not only do. They numb us to negative emotions. Which is what we're trying to do by giving them the prescribing to people who have severe depression or anxiety but they also tend to almost positive emotions their nonselective. And how do they work? Well they fled the serotonin receptors in our brains and really our whole body. But for the purposes of depression anxiety in our brings a flood the receptors and the increase the amount of Serotonin receptors always. Now but psychedelics. Don't do that psychedelics. Act by creating a burst of activity at that receptor which creates a profound and radically meaningful entrance. Formative experience could be positive or negative by increasing. Im- literally going from new meaninglessness or blunted meaning to excessive meaning everything's meaningful ecstatic me. Ecstatic me the flowers. Meaning never seen the flower and look. I never felt the flower to look like that before right and so and but why is that important? It's important because it shows us that the amount of meaningfulness of inexperience is tied to this receptor and is modifiable right. So by the way that we that we perceive experience for example by perceiving a challenge with gratitude as as an opportunity to grow from rather than why me all of a sudden that challenge takes on entirely new meaning which allows us to become that much closer to achieving fuller version of ourselves through the process. South growth by overcoming that challenge. Talk talk more about How that's used. I'm assuming you're making the case for therapeutic context for its use some sort of meaning making with another person right for for that strategy just described. Yes really just by itself. Just you're saying just e just as Pharmacological Event. That's all it's needed. I mean I think that the most promising Sing that we can take from. All of this body of literature is that we can do it by ourselves by bringing ourselves into a present mind. Body balanced Homeo- static state whether it's through the practice of breath work meditation as we talked earlier. Mindfulness Yoga by feedback Psychedelics Apollo whatever maybe using the proper way We have the ability to access the states of heightened meaning in and of ourselves just by facilitate creating or curing situations that are maximally safe to allow us to be present in the moment outward at and so does it help to have people around absolutely. Does it how to have people around. That are not people that you're comfortable with no right so in this particular juncture in human history. We're in a very strange time because the most powerful evolutionary way that we express safety to one another is touching it hugs and now we're self isolate and so. How do we reconcile that? It comes out as your ability to what you were mentioning earlier. So I think I'll a big part of this is I think as you said four Sabbath. It's forcing us into a day of self reflection or three months of self reflection where this is an opportunity to be grateful for what we have and to figure out how to make. Sure this never happens again talk talk more about your research with psychedelics. And where you think this is all going so my research is ongoing presently I think going back to what we're talking about earlier with Eric handles emotional learning. I think Dr Rachel Yehuda who is an incredible researcher at Mount Sinai in the Bronx. Va took things a another step further from understanding just how Neuron Neuron structures and synapses change as we grow and learn and she actually started looking at markers on the DNA That are called epigenetics. So genetics. Dna means tends to mean in DNA when we talk about it means in the act's and Jeez that are literally the same in every single cell in our entire body except in our sperm cells for the most part however if all the DNA and all the genetic code in all of ourselves the same pretty much. How does a skin cell different for brain cell and the way the skins almost different from a brain cell is there little markings on the DNA that tell the skin? Hey Skin your skin don't make rain proteins and it tells the brain that hate your brain and your the specific part of the brain. Don't make skin proteins or any other proteins. Don't make sense for where you're located in your in the in the by albeit regulation right through epigenetics on the markers on the DNA. The answer was really passing. Rachel found that others have fat had echoed in the in the scientific sphere since then is that she found that a lot of hints that Trauma Causes Changes to stress in reward response genes a pass on overtime not only pass on overtime over the course of our lives but pass on over time generations in that ancestors of people or sorry ancestors of people who were in the Holocaust their children and great grand children and Grandchildren. As far as they went in the study they expressed similar the same. Epa genetic markings at correlated with. Ptsd as their parents who were traumatized and so then the next step was hey. Let's try this. Let's explore this a causal model in mice and they traumatize mice at very young age in a red those nights and they watch the genetic The expression marking patterns and they found that without a doubt there were significant changes to stress in reward response gene expression that occurred with that first trauma at a young age that were passed on for up to four generations a safe living before they were eventually or sorry at least four generations of safe living before they were eventually eliminated from the DNA so day ever raised these the the subsequent generations with the EPA genetic markers outside of their Genetic Pool in other words because you know we we always thought about g the one of the things about intergenerational transmission of trauma. It's something about the parent is emotionally transmitted somehow transmitted through the caretaking. They do any control like that. That's a great question I have to go back and look But I but but regardless. I think it is more realistic to not do that. Because that is not representative of what we experience in our lives. Typically in our in our lives when we're traumatized and we resolved their trauma. We do traumatize our children and so I think what's interesting in mice in mice you can. Actually you can look at all these different time points because mice don't have the same rights in our society that human humans do and you can section their brains and take samples. Dna over the course of you know all these different time points in their lives and see that you know when a mouse is born a young mouse born from traumatized parent That baby mouse before has been exposed to negative behavior from the parents still has the same or similar changes and so. I think what's most important about all? This is that trauma and a lot of the symptoms that we're experiencing as a result. Louis experiences result of trauma are not permanent. What this is showing us? Is that epigenetics. If these changes are in the EPA Genetic Code. That's a really good sign because epigenetics are modifiable by things that happen in our lives if trauma which can be defined in reductionist way as you know powerful negative intense meaningful experiences one or many and that EPA genetic changes that result in clinical expression of PTSD depression anxiety. And then we see people going through one. Two three extremely intense meaningful positive experiences with psychedelics or with amazing therapists and their symptoms are within with just three doses of medicine and a bunch of psychotherapy basically gone for years afterwards. That could only be the case if it was acting on the same part of the of the genome. And so because that's the only thing that lasts in our bodies for years and years and years passed onto roster so I think it works long right now. It's very exciting with maps and folks at Yale and in USC. And Dr Huda is. We're looking we're looking at is can psychedelic medicine. Using the proper way actually reverse the EPA genetic changes that result from trauma. And can we then use that? Study to explain how the sort of the interface between science and spirituality where where is where does healing her healing occurs by allowing ourselves to feel safe enough to heal and when we feel safe enough to heal. That's when the recovery nervous is on that's where the para sympathetic system gets resources diverted to ward it to facilitate. Hopefully what we will see as EPA genetic remodeling that restores recovery. And so we're actually conduct M we're connecting studying with maps participants in the face retrial. Right now and I suspect you aware too that there's a whole world of interpersonal neuro. Psychology uses the same kinds of concepts about a safe frame for inter subjective exchange as the fundamental building block or though the process necessary to heal absolutely and I am also an an empty me a map semi psychotherapist and I'm also academy and trained psychotherapist and I went through enormous amount of psychotherapy training in my own training. And I can tell you that the single most important thing through all of those practices the single theme that is the biggest most responsible theme that contributes to healing in meaningful healing is safety emotional mental physical financial and legal safety holistic complete safety. And sometimes we're not always able to provide that to people but if we always set that as a as a top priority than it just maximizes the likelihood that will be able to facilitate healing experiences for ourselves and for others the last couple of them. I do want to talk about habits. And how people should approach habits and then give some basic sort of guidelines for what we should be doing in the face of our quarantine so habits are going back to again. not to Belabor the work but I think this shows how important Eric does work is why he won. The Nobel Prize is habits. Are Things that we practice intentionally or unintentionally in our lives and they can be anything it can literally be a thought of. I am worthless and if you think I am worthless every day for forty years. You're probably going to get really really good at feeling worthless and that's not necessary. It's not your fault. Usually what happens? Is We feel worthless or we feel guilty. You're shamed ourselves or any number of negative experiences because we had something bad happen to us or something. Traumatizing happened to us. And we didn't have adequate support afterwards and that the support after trauma is invariably these single most important critical time for helping prevent the downstream negative effects of that trauma becoming mental or expressing symptoms of mental illness and so Habits can be negative or positive right and I think the idea that we can approach this with is if habits are just practice it practicing anything in our lives and we only have so much time on the face of this earth. Why not spend that time practicing that? Make us feel good not necessarily just things that make us feel good in the moment but things that have the ability to make us feel good in the moment and in the long run so one of the examples. I really like us with my patients. is the example of the practice of gratitude. It's very easy to practice feeling crappy when something bad happens or to practice saying why me when something bad happens the other. Auburn you get angry or frustrated. The other opportunities say hope. Take your take a pause. Take a breath and say. I'm grateful for the opportunity to take a breath in this moment. Which gives you a little more pause. Feeling and feelings of safety through the breath. Pathway signaling saint few the brain you have time to take a breath same thing happens with Apollo and then this gives us an opportunity to be grateful for to consider feeling grateful for the anger for the frustration for the feelings negatively as an opportunity to figure out how to not feel that way anymore in a sustainable way in a way that allows us to continue to get to get better and to feel that negatively. Ideally less. And so this. This is an opportunity for that kind of thinking shift. That's exactly right and that's exactly how we need to think about this. You know I just talked to somebody today. Who told me that he has made such radical change since in the last few weeks since Corentin. He's spent the last ten days the best ten days his life despite the fact that it feels like the world is falling apart around and I thought that was one of the most powerful things I've heard in a while because I'm even struggling do that right now but the and so many of us but I think that shows how powerful we are you know we really do have the ability to optimize the way we feel and end to reframe or change the way we feel and the way we perceive the meaningfulness of an experience at anymore and that's that hope that belief that knowing that we can do that we have agency is exactly what makes us feel better at times where we feel like literally nothing is within our control. There was something you don't really struck me it's I'm having a novel thought clash experience as a result of it which was taking gratitude down to the most basic i. I guess experiences that you can find gratitude for including the capacity for a deep breath to me is really striking. Thought I know and I wish somebody had told me that when I was like. You know like when when you when you try to learn that as an adult. It's like oh boy but we can be teaching this to our kids right now. Anybody who's trapped home with your kids if you want something that's GonNa make your lives better. Teach your kids how to breathe. Teach your kids how to practice. Gratitude forgiveness Self Compassion Self Love. Self compassion is also one of the most powerful tools. We have access to that. And of course I focus on these tools. Because they're free in their things that anybody can do it And Self. Compassion is one of the things that for us. It's sometimes hard to understand what it really means is patients to allow things to unfold as they will understanding that we've been practicing being the way we are for a really long time so it's not. GonNa Change overnight so. Let's be patient for allowing things to unfold as they will which allows us to spend more time being grateful for the actual process. Not just the process ends to a means to an end. Well listen I appreciate you spending some time with those and I suspect I'm going to have to have your back because this is also I could go on all day about we. Just we just We we surveyed four or five different topic each of which I feel like we could easily dedicated podcast too so I may make you do that so I buy. I would love to I really. I really appreciate the conversation and then I really respect your work and what you can doing the community so thank you very kindly to say but but the stuff you're doing is I've been fascinated with this step since college and I sort of kept my eye carefully on it and you can't help but be thinking about these things when you work with drug addicts when you see brains aren't working normally you get a sense of. It's like everything in in medicine. We see you get exposed to pathologies. You're able to figure out what normal functions all about exactly. The brain is the same way that you guys are on the threshold is really important. Stuff so I I just I just WanNa stay on top of it. I WANNA I WANNA be able to refer people to Psychedelic PSYCHOTHERAPY IS QUESTIONED. The questions about that. All the time with people with severe chronic. Ptsd and SORTA stuck states. Do you want to give out a? Is there a general website for that kind of thing and people are looking for those kinds of treatments? Yeah absolutely and I'm so glad you mentioned that because Having knowing that what the the safe resources are is a critical piece of all this My my personal website is Dr Dave Dot. Io And if you reject me on that website I will happily refer you to anyone who provide treatment in a safe way. In some cases I can provide it myself Just depending on on the individual case and What's needed And you can also find out more about Non-drug NEUROSCIENCE DOT COM OR APOLLO NEURO DOT COM. But I think going back to psychedelics. Just a second because it's so important resources for all this stuff Some very good friends of mine are that I've actually become close to recently because we're so aligned on the topic of education about psychedelic medicines for the world because of their powerful therapeutic and healing potential. When used properly Jackie staying has started massing Meet Delic which is a way for anyone in the community to access reliable information about psychedelics. How to get access to treatments places to Experienced these medicines in a safe context And ideally a legal context and so Because he's resources are few and far between and they are always speaking at their conference later in the year called. Meet Dalek and this is the you know this is start of an incredible movement of education that is bringing will all this hard work at maps has done to to the public process of translation which we continue to go. Innovate over time a process that you know you. Dr Drew have been. We're so grateful for translating complex topics for The public and And another event for a second. Okay educations coming up bicycle day which is on August nineteenth or or sorry April nineteenth. Which is that celebrating the day. That Albert Hoffman discovered. Lsd which was actually found foundational in the development of almost all of our all of our psychiatric medicine particularly things like arising western medicine so and bicycle day because he was experimenting road home on his bicycle and having huge trip bicycle Yeah so what happened was he always rode to and from work and what. Hap and L. is particularly interesting psychedelic molecule. Because not only is it extremely potent. It's more coating than any other known. Psychedelic it also is transdermal. So it goes in and he accidentally spilled some on his skin and then not knowing that he had dosed himself enormously he rode home on his bike and had the experience life and so bad celebrating and then he came back from the lab and said. I'm going to send this to all of my friends could tell me what they think. And by the way there's a lot of end of life work with a second all kinds of stuff we can talk about those standby. I'm going to bring back these days soon. Thank you I really appreciate that. And I very meantime we appreciate your time with us during these extraordinary times and I hope everyone got out of this. I did and Very soon thanks for Colin Times and topics. Follow the show on at Dr Peru podcast. That's Dr Dr. W podcast music through. Today's episode can be found on the swing and sounds of the doctor. Groupon gassed now available on itunes. And while you're there don't forget to rate the show to Dr Drew. Podcast is a Corolla digital production and has produced by Chris. Locked Simona and Gary Smith for more information go to Dr Drew Dot COM. All Conversation and information exchange during participation in the doctor of your podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes. Only do not confuse this with treatment medical advice or direction. Nothing on these. Podcasts supplement or supersede relationship interruption of your medical hair tapers. Dr Drew is a licensed physician with Specialty Board Certification by the American board of Internal Medicine and the American Board of addiction minutes. He's not functioning as a physician in this environment. The same applies to any professionals who may appear on the podcast or Dr Drew Dot Com.

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