4 Episode results for "Idaho Supreme Court"
OA262: Is Gideon v. Wainwright in Trouble??
"We find that the fans into guilty. Fun. Open chicken salad. John brielle's bond to be guilty of been to lure show. What section of the constitution was in breach? There is no one section just the vibe of the thing. Objection your honor what leading the witness. Required bullets lawyers. Welcome to opening arguments. The podcast that pairs inquisitive interviewer with the real life. Lawyer this podcast is sponsored by the law offices of p Andrew Torres LLC for entertainment purposes, is not intended as legal advice does not form attorney client relationship. Don't take legal advice from podcast. Welcome opening arguments. This is two hundred sixty two I'm telling this myth that over. There is Andrew Torres. Belted lawyer Esquire how you doing? Well, I was doing fantastic. And now I'm doing even better than that. Thanks. How are you? Doing. Well. Interesting episode. Very interesting upset lots of this. This is this zigzags this one we've got a citizens will we've got the census question we've got Wilbur Ross who's always fun to talk about. We've got some reserve us crack open a nice tall can of some reserves brew. And we also are going to talk about a terrifying. Thomas descent, I feel like that sentences like that happens more than you would think, you know, like, it's always cool a terrifying. Descent by Clarence Thomas in something. Yeah. This one is super duper terrifying. Though. And it's one of these just as a sneak preview, right? We beat up on our own side plenty, and we want to say, do, you know, if you're seeing this crazy mean going around from, you know, occupied Democrats or whatever don't don't believe it for a second. This is one of these. If you have seen a report on this case, it is probably accurate and probably Nodar doing it. Yeah. It is probably not of enough alarmist. Wow. So you heard it here. I alpine Democrats get on that you can make them more alarmist mean with us. And then finally we have interesting listener question about Wayne Rooney who was recently arrested for for something interesting. So we'll get to that. So zigzags lots of unpredictable episode. I'm excited lots of variety here. What's this? First thing you wanna talk about with Wilbur Ross data. Yeah. So we have previously covered the pending lawsuit before the supreme court related to the Trump administration's efforts to direct a question regarding citizenship on in the the twenty twenty census that case is department of commerce versus New York, and we discussed that at considerable length in in prior episode. I will link that in the show notes that is pending for oral argument before the supreme court on April twenty third twenty nineteen in that case. The the court below has argued that the Trump administration's efforts to add a particular question regarding citizenship to the census violate the administrative procedure act because they do because it is arbitrary capricious. And therefore, you know is not within the purpose of the census at the same time literally a couple of days ago. Well, I guess it's been a week and a half. Now, Texas a little while to get to things on March sixth the US district court for the northern district of California issued a separate injunction in California versus Wilbur Ross. And consolidated with city of San Jose versus Wilbur Ross that folks have sent in questions asking about, you know, the injunction handed down in this case, I will tell you that both that that the the government has asked that the holding in this case be consolidated in with and addressed by the supreme court at the pending oral argument in the department of commerce versus New York. His again, remember the the the questions for the census have got to be fixed by the summer of this year. Right. Yeah. So. So nobody wants a situation where the the court is not able to resolve by the well, actually like I mean say nobody wants I would kinda like the supreme court not to be able to trust this by then deity worried about a the how it was before. Then I guess that isn't about outcome. Well, the the supreme court did not stay the injunction. Right. So if if the supreme court were not to act, then the question would not make it onto the census. So those two letters were sent by in between the parties the government said we want to address this issue in the April twenty-third oral argument. And then new New York said respondents take no position at this time on petitioner's into Speight a petition for cert before judgment in California. Vera. San Jose via Ross because we are not a party to that case, we do believe that the court could address the merits of that decision in this oral argument, and if the court decides to do so we would request an extension of time by a couple of days to approve fifth expand our briefs by a few thousand words to preserve the April. Twenty third argument date the reasons to do that. So now what what happened in this other case, we've mentioned that the department of commerce New York case involves the the determination by the lower court that the adding of the census question would violate the administrative procedure act. This case is really really interesting. This says that the. The decision to include the citizenship question on the twenty twenty cents since not only violated the administrative procedure act, but also violates the enumeration clause of the United States constitution article one section two clause three that enumeration clause. Is intended right requires an a quote actual enumeration of the population every ten years, right? Like, that's why we do the census because the constitution mandates that we do that. And what what the judge says, this is judge Richard Seaborg in the United States district court for the northern district of California. What's your seaport says is yes by including the question, you are going to actually undercount large areas of United States. So you will not get that's the whole point. And therefore it violates the numerous clause. You are not fulfilling your constitutional duty in in much the same way. Right. Like, you would would not be controversial at all. If instead of conducting a census the United States government proposed that we just ask Jared, Kushner, how many people are in the United States, right? Like who knows round? Let's not give them any ideas. Right. So clearly somewhere on that spectrum right of just ask Jared Kushner, and he gets to make up a number two. Okay. You have to count every single person by hand or make them sign under threat like that at some point on that spectrum. There is a point that violates the the numerous clause of constitution. You will not be surprised to learn that there is not a ton of litigation over this. But, but this opinion, and findings of fact again, remember this district court opinion. Handing down the injunction is a hundred twenty five pages long. It is a very very lengthy and comprehensive opinion, it raises a very very interesting argument and makes extensive findings of fact, and we're going to watch and see by guesses that the supreme court will issue. A ruling maybe even by the time this episode airs, but in between when we record when the episode airs that will address the merits of this argument at or argument in the New York case, I think that's what's going to happen. And if that does then we'll track it along with the New York case, if it doesn't then will obviously devote a separate episode to it. But I want people to be aware that this that this opinion came down, and that there are there is a pending request to the supreme court to enlarge Royal argument to allow that particular argument. To be addressed before the supreme court. I think that's obviously good thing. Right. Like, this is again a lot of faith in our current supreme court. But this really is at the sort of the crux of the argument of why the question is being included in the first place. So let's keep our eyes open. Wow. What a what a pre segment we got to our segment was a sorry. Once again, the physicists say, you're traveling a lot faster. No, that's okay. All right. We'll keep an eye on that and jeeze really really hoping for the right outcome. Eventually on that me too. I'm offering you if you know the difference between right on wrong, maybe maybe not kiss off. Now, we get to find out that you were wrong about something. No. I was definitely right about. Yeah. That's a little bit of dyslexia there. I thought it said Andrew res- wrong. But it's actually Andrew was wrecked. All right. We'll be right about. So you may recall when some reserve owes that's the former apprentice contestant who was filed various sexual harassment and other tort claims against Donald Trump. She filed that lawsuit. It's been litigated at the New York court, the Trump Trump's personal lawyer Mark Kasowitz org, you'd that Donald Trump as president was immune from lawsuits, and I called that an indefensibly stupid position by Marquette's, the New York, and and the New York district court near trial court, which is called the New York supreme court because they're weird. They agreed with that position. And I said look this is super simple, right? We already have a case that is virtually indistinguishable on the facts in Clinton versus Jones, right? The exact same argument. Paula Jones sued. Bill clinton. And while he was in office. He said I don't have to respond to this while I'm in office. And the supreme court said yes, you do that. While there is some grounds to believe that the president needs, you know, flexibility and freedom to carry out his day to day activities. He's not, you know, he's not above the law and absent particularized showing that you know, responding to this lawsuit would prevent you from carrying out the duties of the presidency. You don't get to say, I'm not going to respond to an unrelated civil lawsuit. Just because I'm the president that lawsuit as we pointed out, the the the supreme court in that decision did drop a footnote, and which they said notice that this is a federal lawsuit in federal court. And so, you know, we. We and what the what the actual footnote says is because the supremacy clause makes federal law, quote, the supreme law of the land and of quote, any direct control by state court over the president who has principal responsibility to ensure that those laws are quote faithfully executed, and quote may implicate concerns that are quite different from the intra branch separation of powers questions addressed here. That's it. Right. So the fact that Kasowitz at oh, well, you know, Clinton v Jones doesn't have anything to was about. Obviously, the president can be sued in federal court. But some reserves is trying to sue him in state court, and that's just ridiculous. We now have the appellate court in New York saying that argument is as bad as I said it, right? They seven the link the opinion page twenty two in short the supreme court's decision in Clinton v. Jones clearly and unequivocally demonstrates that the presidency and the president are indeed separable, then there's a little bit of a discussion about that. Footnote aside from the forum plaintiffs cases materially indistinguishable from Clinton v Jones. Yeah. Plaintiff state law claims against the defendant are based purely on his pre presidential. Unofficial conduct by holding that the president can be sued for civil damages based on Pierre-Louis unofficial acts Clinton v. Jones implicitly rejected the notion that because the president is quote always in function, and quote that was the Kasowitz argument. He cannot be subj-. Acted to state court litigation. The supreme court also considered the argument about extending the president stronger protection. But the court in Clinton v Jones stated the congress is free to provide temporary differ of civil suits. While the president is office. Congress has not passed any law immunizing, the president from state court damages since Clinton v Jones was decided therefore because Clinton v Jones held at a federal court has jurisdiction over the kind of claim the plaintiff now asserts, and there's no federal law. Limiting state court from entertaining similar claims it follows that they have jurisdiction, and that's it's not not taking a huge victory lap on that. That's why it's okay for you to say Andrew was wrong, right, whatever. But it is to remind folks that, you know, this is the position that Donald Trump is arguing in court. It is it is utterly baseless. They will disappear literally came down all as we recorded came down on Thursday afternoon. They will appeal it to the highest court of New York, which is I do. You're court of appeals. I don't like I said that the New York system is is all is crazy, but and they will lose their if this goes to the supreme court, they will lose their there is this. This argument is meritless we know the president can be sued while he is in office for conduct that is unrelated to what he does while in office. We also he could be sued while office for conduct relating to what he's done in office. That's the basis of the emoluments lawsuits that are pending in federal court. But yeah, it's still summers time. All right. Well, that was that was an easy one though for that. I mean, you still get credit for being right because that's one of the values of this show is that oftentimes you can point out legal issues that you're like, yeah. This should be obvious. And then you're right. And we all and so you still get credit Kasowitz Marquette's goes on Fox News regularly and says stupid things like, and so, you know, there's plenty of grounds. For well. You know, hey, like, I I mean, I saw lawyer make this argument that Clinton v Jones didn't involve a federal end like Guinot there's enough truth to that that I think it's worth us. Definitely arming our listeners as to the facts, and that's what we tried to well on that positive note lets preparing terrified everybody. France. Cherished. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. So this is a case called Gaza versus Idaho. And it is it's a six three decision. And that it's a six three with an asterisk, right? The descent is written by Thomas, Gorsuch and Alito, but Alito only joins the descent as two parts one and two why didn't Alito joined par-three because part three is too terrifying. Even for saying, wow. But not for Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch. We will get to that in a minute. I let me tell you little bit about the case. Because the case is it's an interesting case, right? It is about ineffective assistance of counsel. And as we've talked about. In fact, we just talked about this on the latest lawful movies ineffective assistance of counsel is one of the very narrow grounds for post conviction relief, right? That is contrary to the belief that is still. Persistent in popular culture and perpetuated by bad movies and TV shows when when you lose at trial, right, and you lose on appeal that that's almost entirely it. Yeah. Were your ability to meaningfully argue your innocence. You mean, it's not like the TV show proven innocent where they just schedule a hearing for you just for now all the time. Just when you want it. No, you have to show so bad. Yeah. No. It was it was great. If you. Yeah. You gotta catch it. Right. So they're very narrow grounds for for post conviction relief. One of them is ineffective assistance of counsel. And by gosh. It should. Yeah. Right. Like, I mean, the I was convicted not because I did this bad thing. But because my lawyer was an idiot is a pretty pretty strong argument. Right. And so that takes us to Garza versus Idaho. And I should add right. The flip side of that. And let's steal men. The other side the easier you make it for people to prove ineffective assistance of counsel the easier. You make it to just to take the things that you've already lost on at trial and on appeal and raise them in a separate proceeding. Right. So in other words, right? You get your say, it's typical state court crime. You get your appeal as of right to states intermediate appellate court in most most states. Serious criminal offenses. You also get an appeal as of right to the state supreme court. And then you're you know, and then that's it. Then you're done. Now, you're left with collateral proceedings. And what we don't want to have happened is for somebody to say. Okay. Well, now, I'm going to argue habeas corpus. What's the basis for AB, corpus? I didn't do it. Right. And and you're sort of re-litigating the same case, it's meant to cut off that notion of endless appeals. We we don't really have that. Here. What we have is. This is a plea bargain. Right, which most criminal offenses are plea bargained, the most please as we've seen like from the Rick gates plea deal that, you know, we've discussed as we've seen from popadopoulos plea deal as we've seen from manafort's plead hill that he then ripped up include a waiver of your right to an appeal right but called an appeal waiver. It says, hey, I've pled guilty to ex and in doing so I have knowingly and voluntarily agreed to be sentenced for the crime to which I'm pleading guilty. And also, I agree that I'm giving up my right to appeal any sentence or anything related to this crime. Right. That's what pleading guilty meets right, but an appeals waiver. And this is the technical issue that the supreme court was considering an. Heels waiver does not wave everything right? There are some things that you can't waive your right to appeal. This is not the issue here. There was in fact, new issue here for the reason that I'm about to present. But for example, one of the things you can't agree to as an appellate waiver. Is you can't agree to waive your right to appeal on the basis of ineffective assistance of counsel right there? Other things to which you are prohibited from giving up when you file your a pellet waiver. Okay. So what actually happened in this case in this case plea bargain appellate waiver? The client said, hey, I want to appeal after getting a sentence longer than what he expected and the lawyer said, yeah. Yeah. Fine and never filed the notice of appeal now. Wow. Okay. Now again, you wanna steal man the other side, right? Maybe the lawyer was thinking great like you signed a deal contains an appellate waiver. Right. No, right. There's no grounds upon which you would appeal. Right. But that would be a form of of of attorney misconduct right because appellate waivers do not necessarily wave one hundred percent of of your appeal rights. Right. So you gotta do what your client tells you to do lawyer didn't and now in this collateral proceeding. Garza says, hey, that's ineffective assistance of counsel. And the supreme court six to three says. Yeah, it is and the specific issue there. So this is a good decision. We need to the good before we get to the terrifying. That the specific issue was the Idaho supreme court ruled that you had to identify the particular prejudice. That would have come about. This is also something we talked about when we were doing our lawful movies on proven innocent. Try like it's not enough to show. Oh that your attorney made a mistake. Typically, you have. You heard that the mistake would Matt right? Exactly. And like tripped on his shoelaces when he walked into court one day so innocent ineffective like now. It's gotta be something material. Yes. Exactly. Right. And so the supreme court has a long standing line of precedent. That says, hey, when your attorney fails to file a notice if appeal on your behalf, you don't have to demonstrate prejudice, right? The the prejudice is presumed right? And here the Idaho supreme court and the lower appellate court said. Yeah, we get the prejudices presume, but that it shouldn't be in a case like this right because he'd already given up his rights to appeal. So that makes no sense. And supreme court said, you know, what we're not going to change the law on that the that that. An appeal waiver is not a waiver of all of your appellate writes, your lawyer has to provide minimum basic competent counsel. And we think failure to file a notice of appeal falls below that standard of arguments is brought to you by vistaprint. You know, when I started my podcast or actually when I had truthfully when I'd already started several podcasts. I finally finally occurred to my wife, Lydia that maybe I need some business cards. So she popped onto vistaprint and ordered me some business cards, and I love them. It's super cool. It makes it feel professional and it's an easy way to make the right impression in at a moment's notice. Maybe you're at a convention, maybe you're at whatever conference of work gathering, anything, whatever it is having that business card and a good looking business card that says what you do and looks professional is a great way to make that good impression. Look, you never know when you're next big opportunity is going to come. It could becoming right now. And all it takes to feel like you're ready for that opportunity is ten dollars. That's a low price to have the confidence that you're always ready to make an impression or get seen in a new way. You get a custom card with the colors. The font the designs the images that you choose. And that means you can always look and feel like a big deal whether you're startup or a business with a century of history. And it doesn't really have to be hard with vistaprint, you can create a truly professional unique card in minutes. You can upload your own design or you can start with one of their professionally designed options. Vistaprint offers simple, tools and a wide range of templates to choose from pick the paper stock the style and the quantity. That's right for you. Then you choose your delivery speed you can order and receive your cards in his few as three days vistaprint uses only carefully selected inks and responsibly sourced paper stocks, and they've got dozens of designs that are just right for your business. Vistaprint wants you to be able to own the now in. In any situation. Which is why our listeners will get five hundred high quality custom business cards starting at nine ninety nine. Just go to vistaprint dot com slash. Oh. That's vistaprint dot com slash oh. A vistaprint dot com slash. Oh. I'm gonna ask. What may be a dumb question? Do we have does it matter or do we have any knowledge of the facts of like what the appeal was going to be or is it just that it doesn't met? You know, what I mean like, so if if the guy the client Asom, hey, you need to appeal on my behalf for reason ex and reason ax is definitely something that he already signed away his right to do then that would be different than like, you need to appeal for some other reason. And then he just doesn't doesn't matter or do you just file a generic like notice to appeal? You know, how does that work mechanically? So the so that's that's a really really excellent point. When you file your notice if appeal you have to specify you have to do a couple of things, right? You have to specify in that notice if appeal what what it is that you are appealing, right? And the issues that you raise must have been preserved for appeal at the. Trial. Right. So that's the whole point. Right. When we go through the, you know, objection overruled yet like all of that stuff. Right. Is really? Exactly, right. Right. But you have a tremendous amount of leeway right in between filing the notice of appeal, which is going to be really really broad language, which is, you know, a ministerial statement, right? And the filing of the appellate brief in which you're arguing the exact specific points that you contend on a peel, right? So it's kind of a hybrid answer to what you were saying, right. There's there's some level of specificity. But but the fact is if the guy could have had a an appeal available to him that he hadn't signed away, but his lawyer just didn't file a notice of appeal. It seems reasonable to me that you would give him would grant him that, you know, little bit of leeway of like, well, no he could have had some. So so being able to say I had ineffective use of council. And it was material because I possibly could have had a legitimate appeal here seems reasonable to me right and notice that granting the relief here does not resolve that underlying question of would his appeal be barred by waiver because his appeal is barred by time as barred by failure to file a timely notice of appeal. So this is really really excellent question. Because it clarifies the holding of this case this case just says. Yeah, we're not going to hold the fact that your lawyer forgot to or refused to file the form against you. You can now go back and file that form you get that post conviction relief. Now, if in your appeal, you're raising arguments that have been waived by your appellate waiver. Well, then right? The appellate court say. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. This isn't like a get out of jail free scheme. Really know it is it just awards additional. Bischel relief. Okay. So it's six three as I mentioned this. This is the sometimes happens, right? Where we've talked about this where you will see opinions that join in part and and failed to join in other parts. Right. So there's a Thomas descent it is joined by Alito and Gorsuch as two parts one and two which are discussing the notion of ineffective assistance of counsel. And I'm not gonna go through that. Because you could probably guesses to the the basis for that. Alito bales on part three and he bails on par three in which Clarence Thomas signals. And I'm going to read part of this his willingness desire eagerness to take on one of the most celebrated supreme court opinions in history. I am not making this up. So knowing a little bit about the fact pattern of the case. And if I tell you it's the supreme court case that most people can name if they're not if you take out, let's let's take out Brown v board of education and Roe v. Wade if this were family feud, right, and you were to say, we we asked a hundred Americans to name a supreme court case and the number one answer on the board is Brown v board of education, which I think it would be right. The number to answer is Roe v. Wade maybe they'd be flipped. Right. So not those two I think this would be the number three answer on. The board for landmark supreme court case. Like one of the shining moment, I'm imagining this isn't what you're talking about. But I actually think number three would probably be citizens United. Don't you think? Germs recognize controversial yet. But but I mean, this is unequivocally recognized by folks, you're right. I misled because I changed the premise of the question because Roe v. Wade is is very very controversial. And if I don't just mean to talk about controversial opinions. I mean, if we're talking about opinions that are left right center recognized as landmark monumental cases in American jurisprudence right Brown v board number one this. I'm going to go back to my original that this would be number two in the idea. Now, I can't do stuff like this terrible. I'll know exactly what you're talking about. And everything you're saying. But I can't think of names off the top of my head on the worst that the show Gideon v Wayne, right? The right to have assistance of counsel. Right. You can't provide a lawyer for you. Right. Gideon's trumpet was a Henry Fonda movie. It it's I'm I'm going to read this part of this to you. But, but I will tell you if you have seen memes around that says Clarence Thomas wants to overrule Gideon versus Wainwright wants to deny poor people the right to have counsel present in criminal cases. They are one hundred percent, correct. And it's not just Clarence Thomas. It's Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch. Here's some of the things that he says. And again, this is part three of the descent, I think you by the way, if you asked if we're doing family feud, and you're asking. People to name like supreme court decisions. I do not know that most people would remember Gideon v Wayne. Right. But I I you're you're the lawyer, but I feel like that skewed because you actually are person who knows stuff I think you'd get like three answers that weren't actually court cases in there. I rescind I rescind the one won't be like. One of them won't be like ballistics experts. Sever would be one of the. Sever one that right? Yeah. Anyway. I love your son continual fiv of this show is Andrew having far more like esteem for the public that I do and like ability to do stuff and be good and no things, but that's good. I'd like to do I'm an optimist. So so Thomas says yet the court has read the constitution to require not only a right to counsel at taxpayers expense. But right to effective counsel. As if this is a preposterous. The result is that convicted criminals can relitigate their trial in Pella claims collateral challenges couched as ineffective assistance of counsel claims. Okay. This is the steel man argument, I tried to present. But I did a better job of it than Clarence Thomas. But. Because little available evidence suggests that this reading is correct. As an original matter, this court should tread carefully. Before extending our precedence in this area. The sixth amendment right to the assistance of counsel grew out of the founders reaction to the English common law rule that denied counsel for treason and felony offenses with respect issues affect while allowing counsel for misdemeanors. It was not until sixteen ninety six that England created a narrow exception to this rule for individuals accused of treason by statute parliament provided both at the accused may retain counsel. And that the court must appoint counsel if requested only in eighteen thirty six did England permit all criminally accused to appear and defend with council, and even then it did not require court appointed counsel at government expense. It would be another sixty seven years one hundred twelve years after the ratification of the sixth amendment and thirty five years after the ratification of the fourteenth amendment before England provided court appointed counsel for all felonies. I wanna stop. Up here for second. And I want to say I have long said that at that, the Senate Judiciary committee should ask prospective nominees who claim to a spouse, originalism, what their view of the eighth amendment is right? What their view of cruel and unusual punishment is I believe now that they should ask all. Potential nominees who espouse originalism what their view of Gideon v Wainwright is. Right. Because this is a correct statement as a matter of originalism, right? If it's part of why originalism is obviously intellectually and morally bankrupt, right because what what Thomas is pointing out is at the time that the sixth amendment was passed the prevailing notions of what it meant to be represented by a lawyer did not mean you should be represented by a lawyer at government expense. It clearly did not right. Yeah. And it did not for an awful lot of reasons. Right. The reason Gideon v Wainwright again nineteen sixty three decision. So of another one of our like the rights, you think of as belong more recent than you thought way more recent than you pointed out that in practice that guarantee was becoming meaningless and let me point out that for the millions of people who get churned through the United States criminal Justice system. It would again be meaningless, right? All of these folks are folks who absolutely could not afford a lawyer. I mean in I'm rounding up, but but by and large, you know, of the two million people in in prisons and jails in this country. I think you could round to two million of the number that would be unrepresented by council if the they did not have a constitutional right to have a lawyer appointed by the state, that's the whole point. I mean, they always assumed crippling debt for. Their family right now would get him a lawyer. Again, we talked about this before. Right. That that the that fifty with the California revocation of cash bail that fifty percent of California residents cannot pay five hundred dollars without taking out a loan or selling an object value, it it costs more than five hundred dollars to get a lawyer to represent you a Trump. So quite cool about even Thomas's second chance law firm more than that for HAMAs. We'll do it for for five hundred dollars. I don't know. So Clarence Thomas is right here that under his insane view of the constitution. That does not involve the right to a court appointed lawyer now again, he's trod exactly the wrong clues from it. No urine saying way of looking at the constitutional law is stupid. But he with the other way and said, oh, maybe we shouldn't have these rights that pretty much I match if you pulled the public on this, right? I I guess similar to the question, you were framing but done I think in a in a in a way that that will Tate are ignorance a little more. If you ask the public generically your rice? Yeah. Yeah. I have. Have you? You have the right to have lawyer appointed for you. Do you think people who can't afford a lawyer should just be screwed and like just go to jail for and not be able to defend themselves or do you think maybe the government should appoint a lawyer? I'm pretty sure the approval rating on that would be very high like about as high as anything that that you could ask well not. If you ask Clarence Thomas continues. This understanding that the sixth amendment did not require court appointed counsel for defendants persist in the court's jurisprudence for nearly one hundred fifty years, and the quote, an eighteen ninety one decision that says there is however no general obligation on the part of the government to retain counsel for defendants or prisoners drew the court began shifting direction in nineteen thirty two. When it suggested that the right to appointed counsel might exist in at least some capital cases Albi as a right guaranteed by the due process clause, soon thereafter, the court held that the sixth amendment secures. A right to court appointed counsel in all federal criminal cases. And in nineteen sixty three. We finally arrive at Gideon the court applied this categorical rule to the states through the fourteenth amendment stating that quote in our adversary system of criminal Justice, any person Haled into court who was too poor to hire. A lawyer cannot be assured a fair trial unless counsel is provided for him and of quote, again, I don't wanna overestimate the number of people who know that quote. I never thought I wanna be sincere here. I never thought in my lifetime that I would hear that quote cited as an example of something that we obviously need to overturn. Right. I mean, that's one of the quotes that you play in a movie, if you know, stirring, a background music or kestrel triumph like it. That's part of what it means to be an American. That's part of what is is is good about this country. And yeah, the Knicks sentence neither of these opinions attempted to square the expansive rights, they recognized with the original meaning of the right to have assistance of counsel. I hate originalism so much. I really do. It's like, you know, what it might have been. Okay. I mean, I'm sure people are still getting screwed left, and right, but it might have been slightly, okay? To not have this right back before the prison industrial. Flex was putting tens and hundreds and millions of people into prison. You might have been a little different back. Then maybe, but once, you know, in modern times things change, and you need a view of jurisprudence that will adjust principles and not just look at you know, that will that will take principal and kind of just where we are. And where we need to be and not just look at the literal. Meaning of the words at the time as used by people in weird outfits and powdered wigs. We I if if you want one more little bit of outrage at one more of swipe at our handful of libertarian listeners. Oh, by the way, shot up to the libertarians for oh a Twitter feed, it dozens and dozens villa? Last segment of Thomas descent is explicitly the libertarian government expense argument. It says this court should hesitate before further extending our. Precedents and imposing additional costs on the tax payers, and the judiciary. Then drops a footnote in twenty eighteen the federal government's budget for defense counsel had grown to more than one billion dollars. Wow. So that's it. I again, I don't know. I would love to know what? Antonin Scalia would make of this right? Like, a a resort to looking at the cost of existing government appropriations that have stemmed from a well established and historically celebrated. Right. That has been guaranteed for fifty five years. I it's it's yeah. I think it speaks for itself. I know it speaks against originalism. But if you've seen that out there, we have to sitting supreme court justices that have said in print without embarrassment. The sixth amendment does not mean the government should pay for your lawyer. And we should. Overturn one of the most historic and story decisions in US history. I don't know how to be more appalled than that. While opening arguments is brought to you by joi bird. Have you heard about the revolution online furniture shopping and joy bird, the company behind it? All they believe you should never have to settle when it comes to your home furnishings. And that you should always have the freedom to be boldly original folks, our new couch from joy bird is arriving soon. And I am so excited, and I'll tell you. I'm so excited was because we were able to customize and get exactly what we wanted the kinds of things we needed for pets for kids things that I have going to have multiple of soon. It's awesome with joy bird. You get one of a kind furniture made to your unique tastes turn your ideas into reality with hundreds of styles and options from mid century modern to contemporary classics, and there's a wide range. Here's very important wide range of kid and pet friendly upholstery options available you need to get on that. Because if you don't get the kid. Pet friendly options and you need them. Then you might as well by another couch within I don't know a year. It's or sooner so make sure to get that. It's very important. And of course, this is the most amazing thing to me about joy bird. They have the three hundred sixty five day home trial. You skip the furniture store and bring the showroom home. That means you sit on it you sleep on it you break it in. And if you don't love it. You return it for a full refund for three hundred sixty five days, you get that that's hassle free in-home delivery, and they'll even remove all the packing materials, and you get free returns within two weeks of delivery. See how joy bird is revolutionizing online furniture shopping create the furniture that brings you joy today at joy bird dot com slash oh. Go to joy bird dot com slash. Oh. A and receive an exclusive offer for twenty five percent off your first order by using the code. Oh, a go. Check it out. That is unbelievable. I I mean, really a you covered it. Well, thanks for the breakdown. I'm sufficiently terrified in annoyed and I think we should move onto a delightful listener question. I agree. Let's have some fun. He questions training only trains himself at asking questions. What I believe this is a patron. It's been it's been a while. We get a lot of questions different places. But I think it's patriot Eric so hopefully, we suitable shout out. Thank you, Eric for the for the great question, Wayne, Rooney the legendary soccer player was arrested in Loudon county Virginia last monthly I'm pronouncing that right, but you can make fun of me if I'm not for public obscenity. I'm wondering how first of all such a law fits with the first amendment. Secondly, the typical fine looks like it's two hundred fifty dollars, but Rooney only had to pay twenty five dollars. Why would they charge a millionaire less than everybody else? My theory is that it's because Donald Trump's youngest son is a big pain a big fan of Wayne. Interesting. So what's happening here in this case? So. As far as as far as I could tell right, by the way, it is. It is indeed Loudon county lovely area in many respects home to some fantastic wineries that that of which I have patronized. It's also the location of Dulles International Airport apparently Rudy was arrested. December sixteenth. It's tells you how long we've been pushing off for Eric's question. Sorry. It's just the world is horrible. And we decided to get to today. December sixteenth at the international arrivals gate after he triggered a door alarm because apparently he was not so bright enough to realize that the big door that he went through was not a door. You should go through. Was not was you know, nothing, you know, did not breach airport security, and then and then he was charged with a violation of Virginia code eighteen dot two dash three eight which covers profane swearing and intoxication in public because he also apparently. Said the kinds of things that you might imagine a drunken superstar say learn from, you know. Yeah. From you know, while while being Blimey this Bolic's. I think that's bad. That's bad. It was all there was a lot of clowning going on. And that law says if any person profane Lee, curses or swears or is intoxicated in public. He be gamed. He shall be deemed guilty of a class for misdemeanor. So. The as to the s to the affair. We've we've talked about discretion like the I don't I would not necessarily read anything into the dollar value of the offense. But I love the question of how can we have a law prohibiting profane swearing, right? Isn't that a? Yeah. A violation of the first amendment. You know, don't we have freedom of speech in this country. You know, where's where's all the end? And it it allows me to bring up one of the first supreme court cases that I read actually before I went to law school. We studied it in in in a philosophy of government class case. Call agile reading act too. It's a it's a case called Cohen versus California. And it was one of my Fossey professors favourite cases to discuss because what happened was it was a it was a guy Paul Cullen who this case was decided in nineteen seventy one right? So the offense was, you know, occurred in nineteen sixty eight we all know, you know, nineteen sixty eight summer of love height of the Vietnam war protests, and he wore a jacket into into a courthouse to a public courthouse and the jacket said f the draft right accept it. Didn't say F it had the other. It's every liars longer. It had get said clown horn. Right. Maybe we should you know. And and he was found guilty of a state law crime disturbing the peace and this was in Los Angeles. The supreme court said yet, you know, what you've gone a little bit too far here. Right. You cannot criminalise sticking f the draft on a back of on the back of the jacket right that infringes upon the first amendment, and and infringes upon his his rights to to expression. And so, you know, what we discussed in the philosophy class where all the permutations of the, you know, so by professors like imagine if instead of wearing it on a jacket. He carried her out a little tape record that played on continuous loop. And then, you know, went into and was like the draft after draft if the draft draft up, you know, obviously, all the kids in class were sort of tittering at your, you know, professor using the F word over and over again. And and it was a fun discussions. Probably. Why remember it, you know, all these? All these years later, but but no, but it is stab wishes. Right. The the the context of the answer to the question here. Right. Which is there? There's very little that we can absolutely prohibit under the first amendment, right? But but not nothing, right. So for example, right? Despite the fact that it seems not to be enforced in any conceivable way obscenity is defined as any material that is utterly redeeming in any social value. Right. And it is why for for those listeners who are a little bit older under recall gaming utterly redeeming, social value. Right. So I'll tell you exactly what that means right for much of the pre and and sort of nascent internet period, it meant that pornography so long as it carried with it something else, right? Like, the the the long standing joke of I read playboy for the articles. They're actually like there's actually some outstanding journalism that that historically has come out of playboy that that. Then sort of got pushed to the line by you know, subsequent periodical Bhai. Hustler magazine, and some others that what they would do is have they're, you know, pornographic content, and then they would have like a one page article odds, you know, something like, you know, an auto repair something stuck in the middle of it doesn't count. If you got whatever the model, what her turn on our that that that stuff like that. That's exactly right. Like that was actually part of the argument was look there is some kind of speech going on here. There was some kind of socially redeeming content and the supreme court drew a line between material that is obscenity. Right. That is utterly lacking. In any redeeming social value in we put the category. Yeah. Okay. I feel like there's a word missing from the first. Yeah. Okay. In which it put the category of hardcore pornography, and by which I would say like for our for the portion of our audience that consumes very typical pornography online like almost everything that falls into that category. Would would be prohibited. As obscenity right that that in other words bear sexual conduct is excluded. From the notions of free speech. We can talk about that. In a later episode. Obviously, we we don't have the time to go into a super deep dive on porn, which you know. Who knows it could be fun episode. But but the supreme court draw a line between obscenity without any redeeming social value and pornography, which was the work when taken as the whole lacks serious literary or scientific value and the distinction was that obscenity could be pro. Hib it outright. But pornography could only be restricted, right? Could only be prohibited in certain areas, right? And this is related to and I would say analytically the way I approached this is I put all of these things under the time place in manner restrictions, but to to go back like the idea of, you know, can you prohibit somebody from saying the F word in public? That's what it's going to come down to right? So if you wanted to test the constitutionality of the statute, right? You would say is this closer to the Cohen versus California is Mr. Rooney trying to make a public statement about the Vietnam war and trying to or is he a drunken footballer who wandered through the wrong door, and and got a twenty five dollar fine. But that's but that's where it comes down to. So I I love the question. And and I like the. The opportunity to do a little bit of a little bit of history on on first amendment. And what counts, but but but but so like it it's it is perfectly reasonable. I guess of answer the question. It does not on face violate the first amendment to say, you may not drunkenly us public swears. It. But the the fine. I would imagine that doesn't sound corrupt. That sounds to me. Like, a judge is being like, yeah. What what are we doing here? All right. Twenty five dollars. You know, like this is not that. Yeah. I think I think that's exactly right. And and you know, it look I all I know from the from the case is what's available on public record suspect. Right. That that the that the purpose of arresting him was to protect him and the public while he was intoxicated and not to you know, impose any kind of criminal fine. He was released on his own reconnaissance, according to the the criminal case information, and then, you know, got this got this little slap artist of, you know, come on, Mr. Rooney. I think, you know, a little better here than to, you know, be that trunk in public. But I gotta tell. You like if you like to trick alcohol like an airplane is a really good place to do it. And report is a really understandable place to wind up drunk. This is just my personal preference. Don't inebriation advice from podcast or do. I don't know. Air travel's horrible. I really. Yeah. It it. It is. So, you know, look I Bob sympathetic with a million to fly into Dulles. And you know, the few too many on the flight, and and I think that I think that the court said, yeah, we're not I'm not gonna you know, you give him this tiny little slap on the wrist. I should add a it just for for total clarity sake. The Coen versus California was the F the draft case the case that drew the distinction on pornography. Right. That that differentiated obscenity from pornography was Miller versus California nineteen Seventy-three. And that I just I just wanted to be clear as to which of your California cases involved pornography versus the the the draft. The Miller decision was what pulled adult magazines from. Seven elevens and places like that. Right. So it and it enabled a lot of community restrictions on pornographic materials back at a time when you know, ten year olds couldn't get pornography on the portable internet that they carry in their pocket. But this was like again as as somebody who was a teenager. Before time when you could get portable pornography on your like, this was a huge huge issue for a very very long time of, you know, well, where you know, where can we display and can because the seven elevens just wanted to have, you know, Playboy's out on the rack, right? And they wanted to you know, let customers come in and buy and this legal issue that got Andrew into the law. Some people want to fight injustice. Some people wanna you know, help underserved communities. Andrew was like now hands off my my porn MAGS. 'cause you know, that's I shall become law. Lawyer and fight this is so delightfully archaic these days, but but no, it was the the the the battle was sort of weather. You could leave that up to individual communities to apply the standards that were relative to that community. And so that's at the Miller decision is really known for is saying that the that the standard that you would say, right. So, you know, you you would then be able to introduce evidence of like, hey, this is the bible belt, and we don't go for that kind of stuff here and that was used right? That was actually used you know, in support of more restrictive ordinances as opposed to, you know, looking at it on a, you know on a national scale on an objective observer scale in instead, the supreme court applied that community standards test. So we could I would love we should. Do we should do a porn episode because spoiler like, you know, as I suggested here like the status of the law and the status of where pornography is today in on a practical basis in the United States is it's another one of these where the technology has wildly overtaken the legal analysis, and it could be a lot of fun. And and who knows we could come up with a with a good segment of it. So. Well on that happy note, it's time to thank our new patrons over on patriot dot com slash law. So many goodies so many reasons to join we love our patrons. And it's time for the new patrons shout. Andrew starts off. Yeah. Thank you to Matthew. Donaldson. Justin mcbride. I duck. In St. no, brandy Brinkerhoff. Jon Wyatt Francis Packer Esquire Peter lamonica, Justin co Paul. And then I think it's viscious. There's a there's a non recognizable character in the middle. So Paul, I if I I don't know why the export does that sometimes apologies if it ever causes us to give the give a bad shout. Yeah. If if we messed up your name, Paul right in and we'll correct it if we've step you're maybe he does have the plus symbol. It's like print. Anyway, Diana savage. We also appreciate and will Jose. Right. And thank you also to all Everett canal, apprentices Skaff, George Austin, Labonte Horst ragnarok, making good on Twitter promises, or that's another weird. I just read Ragner vox, some sort of weird simple. Sorry. I don't know. Why does it cleft in twain Metroplex heads the call of the L heads Metroplex heeds, the call of the Torres? And outstanding transformers fall of cyber Tron reference. So thank you still heat, isn't it? Anyway, Darth, Mandy pants. Oh, another one. That's messed up Rasmi. His berg. Sorry, Mary Kelly or Marie Kelly Josh Murray and finally caught up started at episode one. Can't wait to hear my shout. How that's awesome. I love that. That was the shout out to you finally awesome cap Morris, and Stephen Wirtz. Thank you, folks, so much Hopi enjoy all the goodies. We love having you on board. And with that said, it is time to hear the answer to the real property question that I'm sure I didn't get no social this firm has ever failed the bar exam. No kidding. All right. So TT question real property landowner divides, his property up into ten lots cells lot one with no restrictions weights. Awhile sells lots to through nine with a restriction restrictive covenant that says, you can only use it for residential purposes. And then and then in the interim the underlying zoning ordinance the municipality amended its zoning ordinance to permit professional offices in any residential zone. Right. So at the time that lot one was sold the zoning ordinance did not permit. Well, do we know that though? I mean, this is probably a reason I got it wrong. But like do we assume? Yes, because it says has amended its zoning ordinance to permit. Professional offices says there'll be no reason to amend to permit if on hold on previously. Hold on. The municipality had amended its zoning ordinance a year earlier to permit professional offices in any residential zone. That doesn't I I mean, I'm sure this will be the reason I got the question on that didn't to me imply that like previously. No, professional offices were available were permitted any in any. You know what I mean like? Let's wait till we. And then the buyer of lot one builds house, and then sells lot one and the house to a doctor and the doctor applies to use part of the house as a medical office. The landowner the original landowner who still has one parcel remaining on behalf of himself and all the rest of the parcels sues to enjoin the doctor from carrying out her plans and to impose the restriction. That was in the other covenants on lot one who is likely to prevail. You eliminated. I see the landowner right, right? I thought limited beat while BNC, whatever Rhett. Yeah. I you you initially eliminated. See as the landowner because the doctor is a successor interest of the first buyer is a stopped from denying that lot. One remains subject to the zoning ordinance as it existed when the landowner conveyed lot one to the first buyer. It it. I thought you did a great job of like parsing through all is stopped from denying. Not not not not allowed to come on. Yeah. And and you you successfully parse through all that. And I'm happy to tell you that. That's also not the correct answer. Right. So good elimination. You eliminated be the doctor because zoning ordinances override private restrictive covenants as a matter of public policy. Also, a good elimination. Not the case that zoning ordinance permitting. Something overrides a private restrictive covenants. What happens is what you would expect. Right. Like, this is from from a common sense perspective. Whatever is the most restrictive will, prevail. Right. So if I sell you a piece of land with a covenant that says, you must use this to run a, you know, a commercial building. And then the zoning ordinance changes, right? You don't get to put up the commercial building. Just because the covenant says so right and vice versa. Right. Whatever is most restrictive prevails interesting. So that leaves Thomas second chance between indeed, which is correct d- was the landowner. Because with the first buyers knowledge of the fact lot one became incorporated into a common scheme you eliminated that and I'm happy to tell you. School nation common scheme does nothing. Absolutely nothing to do with the facts here. That's nonsense and sir good elimination. So can this one of those rare real property questions where all of the additional stuff, and you arguing going back and forth and the stop from denying the none of that matters. It's really really simple. I sold the property to somebody. I didn't put any restrictions in. It restrictions came about later. Those restrictions. Don't apply to the first sale. Totally straight. Right. Hopefully obvious. Congratulations. Finally, I I've I've got a couple of these right for probably not even good reasons. But it feels good to get one of these right while, hey, what's up date on my percentage that I do indeed have that you are at fifty eight and a half percent sixty nine for one hundred eighteen so close this is. One I want that weren't the sixty percent. That's okay. I still got a million questions to get it. All right. Well, how in that limited use time machine or we'll see maybe there'd be a transformer visiting to to do it. We'll see what happens and tell us who this week's big winner of t t t b. Well, Thomas lots of right answers this week. Lots of folks who got tripped up in the fact that it was a real property question and decided that the answer had to be more complicated than it was. But I think this week's winner ought to be Alex on Twitter that is at Len gal who says TB answer must be because not even real property law. Could be that disconnected from reality. Right. He's right. So congratulations, Alex, everyone. Give him a follow that at L E N G you on Twitter and congratulations for being this winter. We'll be back yodeling on Friday. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting we love you guys so much, and we will see folks on Friday. Law. This has been opening arguments with Andrew in Tom's if you love the show and want to support trips odes, please visit our patriarch page at patriot dot com slash off. If you can't support a Spanish spinally, it'd be a big help. If you leave us a five star review on I tunes, Stitcher or whatever podcasts delivery vehicle you use. And be sure to tell all your friends about it for questions, suggestions and complaints Email us at open arguments at gmaiLcom, the show notes and links on our website at WWW dot open. Argh dot com be sure to like our page on Facebook and follows on Twitter at open arts until next time. This podcast is production of opening arguments media LLC. Alright deserved. Opening arguments is produced with assistance of our editor. Brains can hit our production assistant, Ashley Smith and our researcher Deborah Smith special. Thanks to receive Gomez in the entire OA Wicky team, follow them at at a Wicky and a big thank you to our Facebook group. Moderators Elisha cook, Natalie new, Emily waters, Eric brewer, and Brian check out the opening arguments Facebook community and finally thanks to Thomas Smith for creating the show's theme song, which is used with permission. Maybe Brian can you know peace in some like, goosebumps music or something? Terrifying. Clarence descend. Did you see the thing? I think somebody posted it for you. That was like RoboCop should be transformer whose name is. Oh, oh, oh. Flood pressure through the Ruth. You don't like it Optimus crime stopped him as RoboCop cyborg? He can't be a transparent. Wow, come on alert. There we go. That's funny. All right wind its way to either the outtakes end or good day episode fund. This is good classic clean, Tuesday, fun.
Nov 29, 2019
"Hello and welcome the sword and scale daily. I'm your host Ryan Williams. It's Friday November twenty nine and this is your true crime report coming up on sword and scale daily a California father allegedly murdered his wife and three children over the course of a week and then drove to a police station with the body of his oldest son in the vehicle a US District Court rejected a request. It's for resentencing by Idaho Inmate Tori Adams Sake Adam sick and his accomplice. Brian Draper both sixteen in two thousand six when they murdered their classmate estimate. cassie Joe Stoddard. Finally in Dunedin New Zealand thirty two year old doctor. The nods Kantha was found guilty of the murder murder of sixteen year old. Amber rose rush all this and more coming up on sword and scaled daily On Tuesday November twenty. Sixth Police Lisa California released information regarding fifty-three-year-old Shin Car God who has been arrested and charged with four counts of murder in the October deaths of his wife and three children. The victims were named as forty six year old. Jodi Sean Carr Sixteen Year Old Gari. Hong God thirteen thirteen year old niece Shawl God and twenty year old Rahmael Shankar in spite of allegedly confessing to the crimes and God has pleaded not guilty three perkasie our news. Three Sacramento and good allegedly killed the first two victims on October seventh and a third October eighth in in the family residence in Roseville California a city just on the outskirts of Sacramento then suspected that he drove around Northern California with his oldest son Forum Schenker law enforcement alleged that he murdered in car on October thirteenth near the Oregon California border on October Fourteenth and God drove his vehicle containing his son's body to the Mount Shasta police station. He told officers there were three more bodies in Roseville and they notified the Rosedale Police Department. Who then discovered the crime scene? The victims cause of death has not been released. Investigators said and God confessed to the crimes but did not give a motive. The AP reported that Hung God was an unemployed data specialist. who had in the past worked for a number of Bay area companies tax records show? He faced a one hundred. Seventy eight thousand dollar. I R S lean in other news a US District Court on Monday rejected Tori Adam. Six requests for resentencing thing Tori Adam. Sick is serving life without parole in Idaho for the two thousand six murder of sixteen year old. cassie JOE's Stoddard Adam. I'm sick was sentenced to life without parole when he was still a teenager and his appeal for resentencing was in part based on the later Supreme Court ruling that denying even the option of release to juvenile offenders is not constitutional per the AP There are eight thousand inmates in Idaho. Only four of them were sentenced to life without parole as juveniles and therefore were due to have their sentences reexamined on September twenty second two thousand six Tory Adam sick and his accomplice. Brian Draper both sixteen at the time. Murdered their classmate. CASSIE JOE's stoddard. Who was house sitting in? Poke of Taylor Idaho. Adam sick and draper who had earlier that evening. Watch movies with stoddard waited until they were sure she was alone in the house and and then viciously murdered her the evidence against the two included damning video. They recorded themselves discussing the murder during the planning stage and in the immediate aftermath clips of this video are available on Youtube and revealed at the two saw themselves as budding serial killers intended on killing again not regretting their actions on the tape. The boys talk about serial killers. Ted Bundy the hillside strangler the Zodiac and at one point in the video Adam six says those people were amateurs compared to what we are going to be during the video draper mentions that they had planned to commit a murder eight or nine times before but could never catch the victims alone. Adam sick and and draper were both convicted of first degree murder in two thousand seven and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole following the Supreme Court decision. The the juvenile's cannot be sentenced to life without parole. Adam stick apply for resentencing in two thousand seventeen his sentence was reaffirmed by the Idaho. Supreme Court Adam sick appealed the decision to the US district cord who decided to leave the ruling. The Idaho Supreme Court intact after the break a New Zealand doctor found guilty of murdering sixteen year old. Amber rose rush in her bed to prevent her from exposing exposing him as an alcoholic molester. Now for our final story on Wednesday thirty two year old the nod scandal was found guilty of the two thousand eighteen murder of sixteen year old. Amber rose rush rush in Dunedin New Zealand Court reports the Otago Daily Times. According to the prosecution scant a hospital doctor who drank heavily emily and socialized with teenagers murdered amber rose because she threatened to ruin his reputation and his career ambers mother discovered her body under pillows in her bed on the morning of February third. Two thousand eighteen. When police spoke to her mother she mentioned and her daughter knew a man named vinny nod? Investigators soon learned about a heated text exchange between amber rose and vinod. That took place the same. Tonight is the killing. The Nod Skanska became the prime suspect on February fourth. When officers? I interviewed the young doctor. He he pretended he barely knew. Amber rose rush several times during the interview. He noted he was quote stupid to hang out with teenagers. He suggested that amber rose had killed herself later that same day the nod Skanska was arrested for her murder after his young accomplice turned on him and he was later charged with murder and four counts of threatening to kill and pleaded not guilty to all charges. You might ask yourself why a young doctor actor would murder a teenage girl. The reason lay finance scandals lifestyle. SCANA graduated Medical School in two thousand sixteen and and transferred to Dunedin in two thousand seventeen. He moved into an apartment that soon became a well known party. House were underage drinkers. Were a common insight at first. It seemed possible. That scandal was just letting off some steam after years of sober study. However during the trial friends described griped how he came to consume ever larger quantities of alcohol? An ex girlfriend testified that by the end of two thousand seventeen scandal was drinking quote Kamara or less nonstop. He preferred to have others drive him so he could continue drinking. Uninterrupted as scandalous drinking spun out of control he behaved in cruel and crass ways leading old friends to drop out of contact scandal was increasingly surrounded only by teenagers who idolized him. The drugs the alcohol the car and the money he provided one of those adoring teams known during the trial. Only as witnessed thirty two introduced scant to amber rose scandal became infatuated with her in early. January two thousand thousand eighteen amber rose told a friend that scanty had sexually assaulted her while she was asleep. Shortly thereafter scandal aggressively. We proposition amber rose for sex in exchange for money and she stopped socializing with him during the trial. Witnesses testified that amber rose was not the only girl not had molested on February second two thousand eighteen. The nod scant the message amber rose to complain. The she'd used his credit card to buy something online amber rose wrote back. You're lucky I don't go into the hospital and tell them you turn up to work. Drunk supply minors with alcohol. Touch them without consent. Grow Up Vinnie. You're thirty for F. Sake for nod replied you know. I didn't mean in it. An upset amber rose then shared a screen shot of part of the conversation to instagram. Were witness thirty. Two saw it and alerted Skanska. You can't contacted amber rose again demanding. She removed the post. Amber rose replied that she intended to follow through on her threat to go to the police in their last exchange of messages happen at eleven. Twenty five PM. Amber rose rush did not know that the nod Skanska was on his final warning at the hospital after showing up drunk to meeting six months earlier and attempting to treat a patient while drunk scancen nearly lost his job and only any managed to hold onto it by lying to administrators telling them his mother had just died. Amber Roses information could put an end not only to hospital job Bob but to his medical career scanty decided he had no time to waste at eleven forty PM dressed in all black wearing gloves armed with a knife he picked up witness thirty two who drove him to amber rose. Russia's house vinod scandal broke into a room and stabbed her six times in the neck. Nick severing her carotid. Artery scanner return to the car holding the bloody knife. An Amber Rosa's bone and driver's license amber roses uses blood was later found in the passenger side of the car and on scandal shoes after getting witnessed thirty to help him dispose of evidence. Scant that threaten threaten to kill witness thirty to his parents and his cat. If you talked to the police ultimately the threat was not effective as witness. Thirty ready to testify against him in trial on Wednesday the nod scandal was found guilty of one count of murder and four counts of threatening to kill decision that provides them small comfort to the rush family their morning not only the loss of their daughter but also the loss of her mother Lisa Ann who took her own life a few months after the murder scandal sentencing is scheduled for March six. That's it for today. We'll see you next week. And until then stay safe soared and scale. Daily is an incongruity media production. Your host was Ryan Williams Research and writing by Hagar Barack executive producer. Mike Day if you like the show subscribing leave us a review. If you'd like to write us with feedback acker suggestions. Use the email address daily at sword and scale DOT COM
October 14th: Jonelle Matthews receives justice HR 1
"Wake Up. It's time for mornings with Gail and thirteen ten. KFI. Justice delayed after thirty six years navy taking a huge step forward to justice served as St. Panky has been arrested in the one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four murder of Janelle Matthews six Oh seven now thirteen ten K of K ain't thirteen ten KFI K. dot com northern Colorado's voice mornings with Gail live and local from the auto collisions specialists studios working from a variety of sources this morning chief among them. A piece by trevor read in the Greeley Tribune and I have to warn you details of this story may be rather disturbing. So please be forewarned Wound District County Michael Rourke announced yesterday afternoon that police arrested at St Panky sixty-nine on suspicion of murder and kidnapping and the one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four death of a twelve year old Chanel Matthews of Greeley Rourke announced the arrest and indictment of panky outside. County, courthouse Panky was arrested money Monday at his home in Meridian. Idaho without incident he is being held at the ADA. County jail in Idaho without bond where he will await extradition to weld county to face charges for first degree murder after deliberation first degree, felony murder, and second degree kidnapping, as well as sentenced enhancers for using open in the commission of a violent crime. Panky is accused of shooting John Matthew in the head during the course of kidnapping Panky was thirty three. At the time Greeley Police Chief Mark Jones said at the news conference for over three decades. The disappearance of Mathews has left our community with many unanswered questions and avoid that has not been filled with the arrest of St Panky and the murderer John L. Matthews. Some of these questions are starting to be answered. I trust this new development cheap Jones went on to say helps the Matthews, family their friends and our community to receive some closure and healing from this horrific trauma. Jen Morganson Janelle sister was present for the indictment panky on Friday rourke said Tuesday he said Matthews family had a reaction of quote genuine relief and excitement. Now, the indictment alleges that panky between eight thirty to nine thirty, pm? December twenty s nine, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four took genetics from her home at three twenty third avenue she was dropped off by family friend Russ. Ross, after a school choir concert that night in Greeley before her father reported her missing. Her remains were found July twenty third twenty nineteen about one quarter of a mile northwest of weld county roads thirty four, point, five, thirty, four and a half and forty nine. Genera disappearance in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four, well, it shook the community. Mike Peters covered law enforcement and courts for the Greeley Tribune from one thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, one to two thousand and eleven. Peters wrote numerous heartbreaking stories on the search for genetic over the years he joined some of the searches and interviewed the family. He. Said they only lived a few blocks from our house. So I passed their house every day going to work. It impacted the whole town. This was a time when you let your kids go out and play even after dark in the ARD. We. Just kind of cut that off because. Well. It wasn't a safe environment. Though panties arrests might not change the impact that anals disappearance out on the community peters went on to say it felt really good to finally see an arrest made in the case. Greely Mayor John Gates. Speaking to the Greeley trip by the way really mayor John Gates will join us this morning at eight thirty five. But Mayor Gates said we all hoped and indeed we did this day would come. I guess proof that even cases that are cold that have been unsolved for thirty, four, thirty, five years can be solved with a lot of diligence. Mayor Gates who also serves as chief of safety and security at Greeley Evans School district six as you're well aware spent twenty five. Working. At the Greeley Police Department. He said not only from his experience with the department, but since his retirement. The Greeley PD has never put this case on the shelf. Gates said this case has been actively worked for thirty five years. Probably paid huge dividends I'm happy for the family, the police officers and the community because this is about a thirty six year old case. And when I first heard the news I got goosebumps. I'm happy for everyone involved. It looks like a substantial step towards clearing it all up. Now, the indictment doesn't explain why painting might have targeted Donell but it does detail number of connections between him and the Matthews family and numerous inconsistent and suspicious statements. Panky has made over the years. That includes detail of the crime scene, not previously made available to the public. panky would watch school children walk home from Franklin Middle School. We're matthews went to school according to the indictment. Panky also attended the Sunny View Church of the Nazarene until about June nineteen, seventy eight. and. The Matthews family joined that same church that summer. Now in an interview back in March of Nineteen ninety-five. panky stated. that. Two Police Officers Live in the same block as journal. Which started and? Familiarity, with her neighborhood, the indictment goes on to say panky also discussed the critical piece of evidence from the Matthew's House law enforcement actually withheld from the public. Specifically Rake used to obliterate show shoe impressions in the snow. Prosecutors noted in the indictment that panky intentionally inserted himself in the investigation many times over the years claiming to have knowledge of the crime. Those, claims became inconsistent and incriminating over time. He filed pleadings in many cases that contain direct and veiled statements about Chanel. For example, in one, thousand, nine, hundred, nine, pleading feel filed with the Idaho. Supreme Court he argued that if the court ruled in a certain fashion and these are his words quote, it is reasonable for the appellant to believe he would get the death penalty penalty for revealing the location of Janelle Matthews Body close quote. He also wrote without a deal. This case will never be solved according to the indictment panky repeatedly demanded immunity in exchange for information he to possess about two now's murder in an April two, thousand, three court pleading. He asserted. The Family should be informed that John died before crossing tenth street. And not to give the family, hope. panky stated in an August twenty thirteen letter. About a week after the fact, I realized a blanket or comforter quilt also disappeared from the Matthew's house. Some experiences he said are hard to forget. But I must realize justice isn't always served and move on. Now that same year twenty thirteen. He sent an alibi document to law enforcement detailing plans for a family trip to California beginning the morning after General's disappearance. The document contained false statements and support fluids, deep details. Angela Hicks Than Handke's? Wife. She described that trip is quote unexpected. Started two days after Gina's disappearance. She also said that Pinky dumped their family dogs prior to the trip. As dogs were never seen again. Panky. was uncharacteristically listening to radio searching for news accounts of John House disappearance on the return home according to kicks and when they did arrive home on December twenty six. He immediately began digging in their yard. About two days later, car on their property. Mysteriously burst into flames. Panky dispose of the car at a local salvage yard according to fix. In early, one, thousand, nine, hundred, five, panky began muttering false prophet during Church, service when the minister announced generic would be found safe and returned home. The night, the indictment states he grew increasingly agitated and had to be moved by parishioners. In. Two. Thousand Eight. Hicks heard Panky say at his murdered son's funeral. I hope God didn't allow this to happen. Because of Gina Matthews this again. According to the indictment. The indictment also states panky made repeated Internet searches about Chanel tried to delete all evidence of those searches after Greeley Greeley police detectives contacted him in two thousand nineteen. Da Michael Rorick, said yesterday that Pinky became a person of interest in the case in mid two, thousand eighteen panties inconsistent and suspicious statements about the case over the years garnered heightened law enforcement interest. There's no definitive DNA link between Panky and Matthews. This is what works said yesterday in response to a question at the news conference. Asked. If law enforcement believes Panky did anything else over the air. Over the years rourke said, he could not. The court date has not yet been set. Justice. One. Step To justice. For. Matthews such heartbreaking heartbreaking case. Six eighteen now, thirteen ten KFI a thirteen ten KFI K. A. dot com this time check sponsored by the Kim Light Dinner playhouse where camelot takes center stage through October Twenty Fifth Candlelight Dinner playhouse Broadway in your backyard visit Colorado candlelight dot com for more information. Code? Now. Weekdays at four on northern Colorado's voice. Thirteen ten, Kfi K.. Tune into the hall show at noon and no Co. now at four back to mornings with Kayla northern Colorado's voice thirteen ten k. f.. K.. Has Been Arrested in the one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four murder of Genoa Matthew some very disturbing details emerging. Six twenty five now thirteen ten, Kfi, thirteen, ten, Kfi K. A., DOT COM northern Colorado's voice mornings with Gail, from the auto collision specialist studios another piece by Trevor Read relative to the arrest yesterday as announced by Weld County District Attorney Michael Rourke during a press conference right outside the weld. County. Courthouse Greeley law enforcement records on Steve Panky again, who was arrested for the one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four, murder. Of A twelve year old John L. Matthew's shows pinky had been accused of at least two violent interactions with children during his time in Greeley and hadn't asked escalation of contacts with law enforcement in year leading up to Jim Nelson murder now panky have connection to Russ Ross that was the family friend of the Matthews who dropped now off just before the time that Panky is a of napping and murdering journal in December nineteen seventy. Eight panky was hired for delivery and repairs by seven up bottling company in Greeley Ross was an area manager at the time later became sales manager pinky joined. The union was accused of organizing to get others to join. He later accused Ross of retaliating by cutting handke's roots and mistreating them. Panky won a national Labor Relations Act case against the company Panky also cited in one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, two after a verbal disagreement with two. People at the front, doors of K. Mart that was located at Twenty, eight, twenty, nine, tenth street Ross is listed as a witness. In that case, Panky was ordered to pay K. Mart about fifteen dollars restitution after the incident now pankios brushes with local law enforcement from nine, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, six to nineteen eighty-four also include violent incidents with children and repeated complaints of harassment in May nineteen, seventy six, he was accused of Mason. Fifteen and sixteen year old Jon Evan students at the John Tunnel. Panky. who was then employed as a security guard by the northern Colorado Detective Agency told police it was an act of Self-defense panky believed the teens had pulled spark plug wires on his car told police they have started to approach him after refusing his commands to show him their hands six months. Later, a trailer park owner accused Panky of repeatedly calling the owner and saying. Or making threats including before you get me in court I'll take care of you after that Panky worked as a car salesman according to really trip ads from December nineteen, seventy, six to April. One, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, seven he then went into trucking before he was hired by seven up in July nineteen seventy-nine court records show someone accused Panky of making remarks about kids on its property and swinging a leather belt at them now. Eighty four he was listed as being self employed. He was accused of making repeated calls to people on a disputes involving ownership of his home mountain belt security responded to a warrant. In that case, reporting three calls were made from a number listed back to the Weld Mental Health Center then located at thirteen of six Eleventh Avenue Panky reported the victim and her stepfather threatened Panky in his wife in a statement. Apparently connected to the dispute a woman wrote her parents. That, he tried to rape her. When she was a teen he's crazy. The woman wrote I think it is the beginning and it will only get worse. Now the day before June appearance disappearance Panky was accused of trespassing investment after he repeatedly refused to leave the Nobel. Credit Union panky refused to leave unless he quote got his money, but the teller would not re release that those funds for financial reasons records show Panky was repeatedly warned to leave the teller alone but he continued to approach the incident resulted in panties arrest on suspicion of harassment and third degree criminal trespassing. Tragically. The very next day. To now, matthew was reported missing after Ross. Dropped her off at her home at three twenty forty Third Avenue Court. No other family members were home at the time when her father Jim Matthews arrived home about an hour later. He found Gino was missing. Law enforcement believes panky kidnapped Chanel before Jim Matthews, arrival, and shot her during the course of the kidnapping Panky. Again, being held without bond at the Ada County jail in Idaho where he will be extradited to weld county to face charges. Again, a court date has not yet been set. Six, thirty now thirteen, ten, K. F. K.. Dan Patrick, the whole show and Colin Coward or a northern Colorado's voice thirteen. Ten KFI AM A. The day's headlines Podcasts the mornings with Gail and more and schedule of upcoming sports broadcasts find them at thirteen ten KFI. Dot Com. Six thirty, seven now, thirteen ten Kfi am thirteen ten. KFI. K. A. Dot com mornings with Gail live and local via the auto collision a specialist studios. Now, as we continue the coverage of the fact that this Weld County Joel jury has indicted. Steve Panky in the death of John Now Matthews. panky sixty, nine facing first degree murder charges a second degree kidnapping with a weapon charge, as well as a two sentence enhancing crimes of violence counts Panky. A former Idaho gubernatorial candidate actually ran for governor in the state of Idaho twice and over the years stunningly. Perhaps suffering from a guilty conscience conscience says he well should have. implemented. Just Indicting himself. In the disappearance and the death of genetical Matthews says we have a worked through this morning. Now it's interesting his attorney. Anthony voiced yesterday said. relative to the indictment of Panky the fact that they have waited thirty six years to indict him. As the implicated himself increasingly. In the disappearance and death of Janelle Matthews in one, thousand, nine, hundred, four. PINKIES attorney saying, well, it reflects the fact that they don't have any evidence. There's never been any evidence I anticipate he will be exonerated of all charges and you had Weld County da during the Michael Rourke during the press conference yesterday in response to a reporter's question relatives DNA. In this case readily admitting that no, they do not have the D. N. A. Evidence, but we can only hope and pray. That given all of the factual based evidence that they do have that they will be able to make this indictment stick. Six forty now, thirteen ten. K.. Thirteen ten KFI K. A. Dot com morning Gail live and local from the auto pillars at a specialist studios. All right. So it was a grueling day yesterday for. Well, both Republicans and Democrats alike as Democrats well. A through everything. But the kitchen sink at Amy Coney Barrett who remained the epitome of who'll calm and collected throughout this Oh it was an eleven plus hour marathon don't know if you watched any or not. You had many Democrats well among them. Spartacus. And Kamala Harris using or trying to use. Coney Barrett as nothing more. Than a prop at a campaign rally, I'm sitting there yesterday and did you watch it nine, seven, hundred, three, five, three, thirteen, ten, eight, seven, seven, three, five, three, thirteen, ten, drop me a text on thirteen ten kfi text line at three, one, nine, nine, six. I'm watching this yesterday. And for the life of me I, don't know how she stayed. Just so smooth she was so calm was unbelievable particularly when Kamala Harris uses this to grandstand uses the opportunity I mean I thought the whole question of this part of the confirmation hearing was a to ask. Amy Coney. Barrett questions. CARMELA instead uses it as well time to Filibuster and I'm listening to Comma Harris going. Where's the question? Asked me a question and I'll tell you what mean Coney Barrett. She just remained calm. So they came. They questioned and guess what the got up -solutely nothing says a Michael Goodwin in the New York Post it's almost enough to make you feel sorry for Democrats well. Almost this as Democrats failed in their efforts to cavanaugh. Justice. To Be Amy Coney Barrett Own Spartacus actually played his hand as well. Referring to Mr Booker's Senator Booker. Yes. By saying something words to the effect when was questioning I don't know it was some outline outlandish. Line of questioning but he he was questioning her. Basically, tipping tipping his hand when he referred. To her colleagues. Alito and Thomas. You see Democrats no, this is a done deal. Because the Republicans in the Senate despite all of their outcry, this is a constitutional crisis and that. Well, it's the entire process is somehow illegitimate. Well they would be doing the exact same thing and they know it. Fallen well. The history of vicious misbehavior and the political calendar limiting their ability to smear Amy County Barrett. Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee were reduced just being annoying nags finger-wagging scolds they were never going to vote for any Supreme Court nominee president trump's to replace the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg but. They didn't even have the option of giving Barrett the Cavanaugh two point Oh treatment. Z. Another character assassination attempt of kind of visited on. Cavanaugh. Two years ago now, justice. Would have been very risky business for them particularly. So close to the election. So it was politics that not a decency that stayed their hands now make no mistake though if they could of the downs would have trashed Barrett as to religious and too conservative and done everything they could have short of setting the building on fire stopper for joining the High Court before the election as it was well, they spent their time during. The first day of question questioning largely trying to report up and get her to make statements that they could use his campaign fodder against trump. Their fallback position was to lay the groundwork for getting Barrett to recuse herself in important upcoming cases. Especially, the challenge to Obamacare the score, the court has actually scheduled to hear beginning just days after the election I wonder if we'll have the results but scheduled to begin on. November tenth. They also fumed and they sputtered. About the possibility that well, the court might be called on to make a key ballot rulings after the election and hope she wouldn't participate. No such luck they all struck out. You see their basic problem here is that bear it? Came across. As an appealing superwoman, she was flanked by her husband. Six of their seven children and her six siblings she she was absolutely flawless in answering those questions. The ones at least she could. And in very very politely sidestepping all of the landmines that were put out in front of her. I don't know if you saw this tonight but I found this. Absolutely. Incredible. She was referencing case law. I mean opinion after opinion. Without a single note in front of her. Or she had a note pad in front of her, but there was nothing written on it. Not One single word. She had no reference books nothing whatsoever. It was a laser like accounting. Of things she wrote and said as a professor at Notre, Dame law school, and for the last three years as a judge on the Federal Court of Appeals. Now one point you had Senator Dianne, Feinstein who infamously said Barrett three years ago that the dogma lives loudly in you. Will Feinstein got rather frustrated with getting nowhere and switch topic spicing. Let me try something else. Senator Booker actually say to. Your a much better lawyer that I and I'm like, yeah, think. Now, while Barrett was generally engaging unpleasant. She was almost robotic in responding to even clever attempts to get her to Kent House she might rule on specific cases or issues. Repeating a famous line that Ruth Bader Ginsburg used it her confirmation in Nineteen ninety-three Barrett repeated no hints no previews. No. Forecasts. Lack of theatrical accusations didn't make for great TV admittedly but the hearing was educational is Superior Court confirmation hearings can be repeated references to the constitution. Of legal landmarks and constant reminders that the court and the entire judiciary, we're designed to be different different from the executive legislative bland branches amount to a teachable moment for anyone who. Gives a WHO cares to learn. Especially valuable these days since many high schools and colleges apparently, no longer teach civics or a positive you a positive view of what made America. Unique. In the history. Of Mankind. The most refreshing part of the day. Was To better understand. Who Amy Barrett actually is and why so many of her students and a professional college rave about her intellect and her kindness, and well, why trump picked her in the first place? One inside came when Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois asked whether she had watched the Joy George Floyd video. Yes, she said. She did with some of her children. Including daughter Vivian. One of two black Haitians she and her husband adopted. We worked together there it said. adding. that. Racism is. A poor aunt. She later responded to a question about same sex marriage by saying she rejected discrimination. Of any kind. Asks why she decided to accept and go through. What she readily admitted as far as this confirmation hearing goes is an excruciating process. Here's what she said. I should serve my country. And my family's all in on that because they share my belief in the rule of law. Concludes, Michael Goodwin and the New York. Post. We live in a time of upheaval. But America is truly beyond lucky that such extraordinary people still answer the call. To Public Service. And indeed? That is the perfect description of amy coney there it your thoughts morning nine, seven, three, five, three, thirteen, ten, eight, seven, seven, three, five, three, thirteen, ten, drop me a text on our thirteen ten KFI text line at three one, nine, nine, six, net this as the confirmation hearings drone I mean roll on once again. Here, mornings with Gail. Weekdays six to nine and northern Colorado's voice. Thirteen, ten KFI K.. Those high winds yesterday didn't help a firefighters ongoing efforts to quell the Cameron fire working from pizza out of nine news this morning six, fifty, seven, thirteen, ten, Kfi a northern Colorado's voice mornings with Gail from the auto collision. Specialists Studios Yeah elevated the fire activity of the Cameron a peak fire. Those high winds did forcing mandatory and voluntary evacuations according to a piece by Andrew. Kirk. Larimer County Sheriff's Office ordered mandatory evacuations Tuesday night for county road forty, four H. from Pennock Pass East to Rhode. Twenty seven Lerma County, Sheriff's Office also alerted resonance in Glenhaven Glenhaven retreat store, mountain, Palisade Mountain, and county road forty three from stream side to storm out road to a voluntary. Evacuation alert this took place earlier yesterday I can fire officials fire crews were successful in completing a significant amount of containment line along the northern perimeter of the Cameron peak fire on Friday fire in Lamoure County that is burned one, hundred, thirty, four, thousand, nine, hundred, and sixty acres is now fifty six percent contained as of yesterday fire for fire officials said there was isolated torching on Monday fire made a small wind-driven run to the east firefighters near Comanche. And hourglass reservoirs face challenges due to extreme wind gusts during the day while afternoon winds prohibited safe direct attack on the fire. Monday. Did see little growth of the fire perimeter fire management officials said that while the entire northern edge of the cameron peak fire is now in containment crews will continue to patrol and monitor the area by the way at three twenty, two on Monday Lamoure. County sheriff's Office was able to lift the voluntary Qa Shin Status for glacier view. Rocky Basin type one team is transitioning in with team sex will be taking over command of the fire This morning again that Cameron peak fire has been burning since about mid August first reported on August thirteenth in an area about two miles southwest of red feather lakes. It stands as the third largest fire in Colorado history this behind this year's. Pine Gulch fire, and the two, thousand, two, Hayman. Fire six, fifty, nine, now thirteen, ten, Kfi, a thirteen, ten KFI K., A. Dot com well, those ballots did indeed drop in the Mail on Friday have you received yours and well, what to do? You just fill it out to sweet get it back in or are you going to sit on it for a while we'll check in with Weld County Clerk Recorder Carly Compass when she joins us at seven Oh five K K Greeley closing in on seven o'clock.
Lori Vallow's First Court Appearance in Idaho!
"Hey this is robin. This is Jackie and this is Amanda. And you're listening to Weei solve the double a podcast dedicated to horror true crime. And all things macab you want to follow us between shows. Don't forget to check us out online. You can go to our website at www dot we saw the double dot com. You can follow us on Instagram at. We saw the devil podcast or on twitter at least saw the devil and if you want to follow specific co hosts social media you can find the links of those on our website as well. Happy Sunday morning every one we promise and update episode on Lori Velos appearance in Madison County amongst other new things. That have happened this week. So here we are. Isn't she just trifling? We will get into that so today. You are going to be stuck with Robin me and Jackie because Amanda has forsaken US and gone to Las Vegas. She is lost right now. Probably looking for her keys insanity and sobriety somewhere on FREMONT STREET EVERY MONTH STREET. I think the I I noticed that. She's being harassed by make a guy with a guitar. So we'll we'll find out. I'm sure she has many tales to tell us when she comes back a man who appeared to be wearing a Sauk covering his genitals that said rock out with your kockouts. Amanda enjoy the beautiful scenery. I'm sure she's loving it so this was a big week yet again. We promise you an episode a couple of days ago but like we just really thoroughly wanted to research to make sure the sources were good. And you know there's so much speculation so give it a day or two and now we are here. That being said let's dive into the hearing. So Laurie Valo finally appeared before the county court and man. I don't know how she got like wet and wild lipstick there at the prison but that was not Mary Kay. Her Lipstick was awfully. It was like outside of the lip line and everything my if I may say like she looked kind of Russia but how did she get it right like it seems like everyone's kind of pissed that she was even allowed afforded makeup considering that her kids are still missing? Oh and don't forget the pink handcuffs so okay so that's actually completely threw me for a loop now. I was watching. The hearing as Amanda was on her way to Vegas and the very first thing I noticed. So it doesn't absolute media shit show in Rexburg right now. I mean everyone is there. Our Beloved Justin Lum from Phoenix is there. I mean it is a circus people outside with signs. Were your children. It's crazy so you know. Watch that watch. People come in sit in the courtroom. Saul Larry K woodcock brandon. Boudreaux was there and then they bring Laurean. I just this podcast. We pride ourselves in sticking facts and talking about stories and the case itself. I think we can take just a moment to discuss how Laurie looked on. You know her. Her hair looked a little bit better than loss time. Somehow someone letter rusher damn hair. No I actually read about that. And apparently in prison to get those curls back you just braid your hair so people are saying that she probably just like you know braid her hair overnight and got those beaches guy. Got Them President Beach Waves on. That's important but No She. She came out with a slight superiority complex. Defiance Yeah and link lacking complete discipline. I think the prison life is actually showing the cracks in her personality. And then I think. Are you ready to hear about the handcuffs? Yes I think that the pink handcuffs shows that she's really good with interacting with people. I think that she got some favoritism behind her. I have over the Internet trying to find out how she could've obtained or been placed into pink handcuffs and pretty much. The only thing that I have read is that sometimes prisons actually especially with Either female prisons they will actually give women pink handcuffs because you know gals like pink. So well she doesn't deserve even PEPCO BIZ. Mwale all right so yeah. That was like really really odd. Just watching her. Come out with this God awful shade of Red Lipstick which I personally as a court junkie did not really find appropriate person. Areo but I digress and then pink handcuffs and like Jackie said she was defiant. She walked out and the beautiful part about the courtroom. If you can imagine it for a moment is saying like you're you're looking at the courtroom over the courtroom from where the judges sitting Laurie. Valla comes in from the right side and she has to pass by the prosecutor side right like the state side so she passes by Colby Ryan Her son. She passes by K. And Larry Woodcock. She passes by Brandon Boudreaux and she was defiant had heard no stuck up in the air and just walked right by them. I those kind of weird. That time that she communicated with her attorney and she would have left her like. She's a so casual and nonchalant about everything that was happening. I think I'd actually leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of many from what I've been reading the reactions of most people who are really into this case it's telltale of her psyche. You know of the type of person that goes there and and she she at one point did choke up elude lectures about the cry But that doesn't matter. She just her body. Language is so much disciplined you know and they let her off easy. Miller off praise even though it was you know she had a good attorney this time. Well let's get into that so the judge of this case is Farren Z. Eddin's and he is the new the new judge a lot of speculation online that I would like to address as well especially in facebook groups as so this hearing was also a bail reduction hearing right the judge himself is a member of the LDS. Church and a lot of people speculating. Well he let her off easy and he shouldn't have reduced her bail and the woman in Hawaii. The judge was much better. Let's not and I would ask people to not to speculate and say oh well you know now that she's back in Idaho. It's going to be a mormon free for all like that's actually not the case. I truly believe based on the charges that she has against her that reducing her bail is accurate because of the amount of fines that her charges have against them for like a normal person. The prosecutor made a very compelling argument as to why should be a flea risk. And why Bill being set so high would be appropriate. It is not standard. I do agree with her. Bail being lowered also protecting her constitutional rights To a fair trial so her bail wasn't factual word As Jockey said from five million down to one million so basically if she wants to bond out they have to procure ten percent of that which would be one hundred thousand and then also show collateral for the remainder every bail. Bondsman apparently works differently. From what I've read in a couple of bail bondsman. Companies have actually said that they've tried to work with her and they're actually apparently currently having difficulty again. We're recording right now. Early Sunday morning and she still has not been bailed out as of yet so again. That's one hundred thousand at least plus nine hundred thousand dollars in collateral. Now if you followed our other previous episodes you know that Chad Day bell is basically broke. It seems to me that their limit was ten thousand dollars. Because that's what they were trying to push even in Hawaii. That's the magic number. Is the magic number but yeah. I don't think that she's going to be able to get out. I don't think that she's going to be out in under the under the condition of her getting bond would be wearing an ankle bracelet. Gps tracking device or as some lovingly adore us a ghetto pager and yard so Jason Lum reported early Friday evening that She was working with multiple bonds companies in an attempt to get out in that the Madison County. The the correctional facility had the ankle bracelet. Ready to go like they've already gotten it ready to go and they were just literally waiting on her to bail out and again if you listen to our previous episodes you know that Chad deba got four hundred and thirty thousand dollars in Life Insurance Policy on. Tammy that when someone The News reported that he has like one hundred and thirty. I I forgive me. I forget the exact amount but it's in the hundred thousand dollar range left in his Hawaiian bank account. That's not enough now and his home still has you know still has a balance on it and you know he had the bankruptcy so lots of speculation as far as who could get into that in a moment assistant bailing her out but Chad Day bells likely. Not The candidate. Now they did say in court. The judge asked so if Mrs debut does bail out where will she go in her attorney said. Well I'll give you the address privately because the media circus and so on and so forth so I'm curious. Do you think that she's going to stay in Chad? Day Bell's House I do so it's actually really interesting. So Laureus Attorney The the main one who spoke her name is Edwina alcoholics. And she's kind of almost like a like if you order Christina Ricci from wish this is actually what you would get and she said that her husband so Chad has maintained a longtime residents and the Rexburg area and that he has family there and you know trying to basically plead her case as far as how she would not be a flight risk. And it's just so sincerely fucked up that China. Debacle speculative likely killed his wife so he could be with Lori and the now lawyers waiting to get bailed out and literally go to the home of chat and Tammy's house the so sad I think so so. I wonder if that's address. I wonder because the media circus has been so intense in Rexburg. Everyone knows child lives. People have been camping outside host trying to knock on the door he was and he's not accepting anything but INSTA- cart right now so literally. People were groceries and so corporate on groceries. So I'm halfway expecting to see him with just one day at the grocery store would just bags of cat litter and he becomes a mean like Glenn Danza Anyway. Oh Yeah so yeah so. Initially the judge went one by one of all charges. He asked her if she understood them. If she understood English language she said Yes to everything. And then they talked about bail jockey. How do you think attorney done like awesome? Meet her attorney's demeanor. I think her attorney actually put everything together very well. She made a very compelling presentation as to why she should get bail lowered. She did A and I think she actually did a good job. Unfortunately she has a decent attorney. You could tell about her training to the hard work to look into as to like if the judge a reason to let her like have lowered bill then the prosecutor side didn't and they had a very compelling reason why the rich and be lowered they did something on a new piece of information. I wasn't aware of personally so her. Attorney again. Her name is Edwina. Okoh said when Laurie was in Hawaii apparently contacted law enforcement directly and basically said. Hey if any charges against me or Subpoenas or whatever I will turn myself in and her attorney said but instead law enforcement in Hawaii turned into a spectacle. I actually wasn't aware that Lori had contacted law enforcement instead of the outlawed later my cell phone so that was something new to me. I wonder if that was a lie but they did make the supporting argument that she's never been arrested before no charges ever nothing in her entire life and that she's never been an outlaw of the court morelos like she's never stood up on a court date. The only thing that she has is that she didn't procure the children I think she said that. The hi- bail amount denied her to process because not a single charge that she's facing is one of violence. Yeah but what's interesting is that the prosecutor side came out and then they said that they're investigating three deaths that are suspicious that are linked to her and that she's a flight risk so that when you add that up and you put it all together. It's very important to be like okay. So why would she need bill? Well they believe that she had the means to flee because it was a pattern of behavior and there were just like we need her to not try to cover up evidence. We need her to just basically stay in one place so we can figure out and do our investigation because she could be a violent offender. Yeah I mean obviously that was really interesting though another piece of new information that I personally wasn't aware of back to her defense attorney. She said that while lorries not a flight risk because her passport has expired and the Laurie worked in a Salon. The same salon for fifteen years. Like damn she not doing a lot without hair then imprison up say name be real bleak in there. Oh I bet she's doing better than some. Yeah but let's see as already stated Brandon Colby and the grandparents are president. I'm really the only thing new From this this particular hearing is the bill reduction in the preliminary hearing for all of this is going to take place on March starting march eighteenth. It's going to be two day. Process March eighteenth and March Nineteenth. Both at nine. Am so that's going to be the next court date for her March. Eighteenth at nine am and it seems that they're bringing five counts against her right now So so as their listen the the five counts and the penalties for the five counts that they are trying her for it. Made me realize something that if the children were going to be anywhere. It's Idaho like this is my own speculation just because it's almost like an admission of guilt. If you tell if you move someone you tell someone that your kids are some old twins looking for your kids. It's more likely You're you're trying to you know create a diversion basically and that your children are probably somewhere where you you don't like instead of them. Being an air is an obviously because she diverted them. There is to Melanie. Melanie Gab. Now they're looking in Arizona for a moment For the kids. Meanwhile she's an Idaho and then she's going to move to why I mean. How more guilty can you present yourself to be right? Now is something that the prosecutor brought up And which is you know within on when the accounts that they're trying her for one of the charges solicitation right. Yeah so I just thought it was very interested in and really think and I'm like is there going I just. I'm just afraid that there's going to be a bias in Idaho like I think. I share a lot of other people's fears. That's so I've spoken with a couple of people who are Mormon and they all maintain an also a silent observer and I know that we have a lot of listeners in the Christmas misery tightly Ryan and and Jj valid group so again. Thank you for listening side note. I have seen a good deal of banter back and forth with Judges Mormon too and I just like can we stop automatically believing that everything is going to have a bias though. Because I don't I truly hope that she will like I really honestly don't believe that she will have a bias. I think that because there's such public scrutiny of this case that's going to be really really difficult and also. We can't forget that Chad Day. Bill and Laurie. Valo were the fringe in the same sense that like Southern Baptist. Right don't want to be associated with snake handlers and Shit. It's considered friends so just because they shared the same foundation foundational religion. I don't I think that these people are more embarrassed by her than anything. At least that's what I'm seeing from people who in the LDS Church in Roxburgh is what they're saying. Laurie is like bringing shame on their house. Basically is making them look bad as not a good luck. I have no opinion on those other than I. I still have fears. They're going to have a bias regardless and it seems like you know I. I'm afraid that she's I mean the pink handcuffs come on that could have been prison. A prison item. We do not no. No no just buys handcuffs and they. Can you put these on me? The president is a whole could if the first female inmate had pink handcuffs for them. Maybe she's doing real good with one of the correctional officers there unlike the pink. Hang us. Oh here you go. Dina wine shopping. Can any of you know? Please feel free Hema loss. It's kind of weird. Yeah we saw the double N. T. Mola Com. Thank you go where we know So what's interesting is that the prosecutor did bring up. Finally we're hearing more about her collecting the social security benefits of the children. And it's really interesting because we didn't hear about that in Hawaii really the prosecutor wasn't you know up to present that yet now that she's in Idaho. The evidence is going to start rolling in and I think that I I. I hate to say that I'm excited. I don't know about our word for it. I'm excited to see some evidence. Come out so maybe we can find the children. This is going to be slow moving so you have to realize that we don't have a murder case you know we have. The children are missing. Solicitation negligence Abandonment failure to procure the children. We have other charges but like Jackie. Sat. There will be at some point so security fraud most likely. Yeah and depending on the evidence at the FBI as we stated in our last episode the FBI. Is there there? There are differing accounts. Some people and facebook groups who live in the area. Say the the There's snow mobiles and vehicles going into yellowstone that has not been confirmed though but the the mobile command for the FBI. This huge rock isn't expert. Currently I didn't know they were in Rexburg. I thought they had moved on to yellowstone. No not yet okay. So there are going to be additional charges. Even the prosecutor pretty much mentioned the likelihood of additional charges being tacked onto her. That'll be separate court case altogether but so these are the five that are going to be tried. Currently what's awful as that if the FBI is searching for remains they have enough reason to believe. 'cause that's that's millions of dollars also came out to a Justin lomb blush heart said the F. B. I. Came out and basically said that they have unearthed digital basically history showing a quote possible network that indicates foul play. So what does that mean? What does that mean exactly We all know a foul play means so I wonder what items in our last episode. We went over the emails. This is like God. There's so many emails the email that Lori sent to Chad as Charles and then so on and so forth. I stated this in our last episode. We'll we'll speculate with the children later. Know that's kind of like our final thing that we do. It was just her demeanor this entire hearing it would. It was enraging well when they when they talked about the reduction of her bail. Her laughter So half the time. She was trying not to cry. I disagree with you I. She was laughing and defiant and rolled her eyes and looked up and laughed and smirked the entire time. I didn't see her roll her eyes. Oh every time I what I saw at one point was that she got teary eyed. When they when her attorney was going over her life and how long she's been somewhere and talking about her working swan for fifteen years and stuff she got teary eyed a little bit. You know thinking about her life probably outside of prison more than likely and what she's losing and then it. When they talked about the reduction or bail she was all off all laughs. I'll know is this weird. I know that a lot of people have an opinion on us which is like great. Because she's an actor. You know big time something. That was really interesting though is so to my knowledge and again people correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge. Laurie has not actually formally changed her last name. I am noticing that this is a big thing that a lot of people think that the second you marry someone your name changes. That is not true. You actually have to go get it changed yourself so the judge asked Laurie. How would you like to be addressed by Laurie? Valo or laureate table. And she said debacle and she smirked and she kind of smiled a little bit and then kept looking and then she looked back at Chad. A little bit gave him like a little bit side glance every single time the judge said Mrs Debacle. She actually would smirk I watched a youtube video of a behaviorist Look a criminal behaviorist and whatnot. Who Actually pointed that out interesting basically pointing out about how like they're you know connection and kind of How she not under his spell. That is the cheesiest fucking phrase I've ever heard. But just how? She's still still enamored by being called his name. If that makes sense seeing spellbound maybe yeah kind of so. That was that was very interesting. That's very cool. I didn't know you even thought of it almost but that's pretty much it. So bill reduction and eighteenth March eighteenth at nine. Am This shit. Show the preliminary hearing will continue other notable events from the hearing so immediately after the hearing They vacated the right side of the courtroom Colby Ryan set up Shot Chad. They bill a nasty look and one of my favorite screengrabs as when. Laurie was walking by Kay. In Larry and K woodcock literally gave Laurie. The Look of the Satan. Like if looks could kill Laurie. Laurie Valla would be on. The ground is word. Dog Or daggers. It was so impressive K. I love you. Really heartwarming though. A lot of people have been wondering about the necklaces In particular delays that Larry and K were wearing for this court case so that was due to the fact that someone who worked for Dateline in Hawaii flu delays basically back to the woodcock. You know pretty much support from the people from Hawaii riot so gave them the laze and said hey this. Is You know showing you that the people of Hawaii are behind you. They said we support you and hopefully one day. The children will get to wear these. So Larry and K wore these and I thought I was really kinda sweet I even asked you. I was like why are they wearing lazy And you had the answer mealy. You don't skip a beat so it's crazy but it was really really sweet. It's very heartwarming. Eda's so many people. It's so many people care about the well. What is that what you told me which I believe. This is the the deal with a as if they do find the children. They're going to give the delays to the children right when they find them which come on. Who's trying not to cry? You know. That's so sad. Does the saddest thing I've ever heard. It's so sweet but yeah so. That's where the lease came from in case you were were wondering so they did. Colby Ryan did and the and the woodcock together did a press conference outside the court after lorries lorries. Hearing Larry is just he were those kids. Were those kids we we just want those kids and he is fucking done and he did say that you. He said he sat for the kids. He wants to find them but he's happy. That justice is being performed so we'll see But there are such strong people to be going through all of this and you know I have to be. I have to give my opinion on something and it may be unpopular but I it has actually bothered me a little bit that the woodcock keep it seems. I don't know how to put it nicely but it seems like they just solely cared about. Jj almost a lot of the time but like tyler as an afterthought where's JJ JJ JJ's by blood JJ's my blood entirely. We want to and it's actually rubbed me so the wrong way like this entire time that they haven't really seem to care about highly as much but I feel like in the court hearing. They kind of like they made up for a little bit. I think so. I think that I think a lot of people are gonNA probably disagree with. You announce okay you know. I don't I personally don't have an opinion on like you do. I think that it's sad. I think that they are actually being good grandparents Allen. Yeah they're going through a lot right now. I can't imagine you know they're not everyone's grandparents are so front and center and and leaving themselves so vulnerable to the public like that either. No God they were on Dr Phil with any cushing. I've been speaking to twitter. You know just conversing with twitter here and there and she's in multiple the facebook groups and she's been an incredible resource but you know the family is just has really pulled together and come forward and it's it's really incredible to see and everyone wishes they could have a Larry or okay 'cause they will until their dying day they will be. They will be fighting for those kids. Another thing that happened. So coby Ryan he was. Also this After hearing press conference now that is Laurie Velos son and I feel my heart actually rakes for Colby like it actually breaks you know how does mother he said by all by all accounts. He was close to his mother. I could tell her anything. Talk to her about anything. He was so close to Thailand. If you actually look on his facebook account which is still public back. You're like two years ago. Every post was highly. Jj like they're also closed and then now he's lost his Tighly they texted daily. They facetime daily and so he lost basically his sister he lost. Jj and he lost his mother. He lost his car because of all of this and he lost his job. Kobe Ryan actually has a gofundme e it seems like the kind of opinion of it is split fifty fifty if people think he's being opportunistic or looking for a handout or looking to profit off of this and the other fifty percent or lake he literally just lost half his family and his mother may have kill this things like give the kid a break but he does have a goof on me if any of you bleeding. Hearts want to shoot colby a couple of dollars. He is currently in Rexburg Idaho trying to speak with Lori. And it's speculating now. Whether Laurie wouldn't even look at him when she left the courtroom but he he came to court. He hasn't seen his mother over a year like almost two years and she wouldn't even look at him as she walked by him in court. How Saad hasn't that sad and so he is currently in. Rexburg trying to meet with her. Whether that's going to happen I don't know but it's sad nonetheless. He seems to really without a doubt he loves those kids to. Let's see another thing this week so as we spoke about lorries bail and whether Chad has the finances and the capability of getting Laurie out. You may remember the name. Christopher Peret who founded vow forum now how is the group were a lot of the French? Lds groups so the Avowal Forum Christopher Peres he has money. It's also speculated that he is behind the free. Laurie Valo Group on facebook. That's gotten a shit ton of traction lately. There's some crazy lunatic running. This facebook group called free. Laurie Vullo that is like literally just making fun of everybody and posting memes. And you know saying how. There's no way that they should hold her. They have no evidence. And it's just like all around crazy and hate that it's even gain traction but he has a lot of money. And if you've seen pictures of Christopher Peretz House I believe it's due to hit like a snowmobile business or like ATV type of business. He's got money and he is probably Chad Day bells and Laurie's biggest supporter. So maybe he has something to do with it. But that has also been been speculated so another thing people are wondering if Lori is going to take the stand and as illegal junkie. I would like to say no. Laurie is not going to be called to the stand. Because if Lori is called to the stand you must understand that the prosecution cannot call the defendant as a witness right. Because what are they going to do? Self implicate so the defense can call the defendant pendant up and they can examine them but then that also opens them up to the prosecution to cross examine and ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of the time. Defendants do not want that. The defense side does not want that because it opens you up to a can of warrant can of worms so it is highly unlikely given lorries demeanor Given the fact that she has to missing children a dead ex husband and a dead brother in the mix. I highly doubt that she is going to take the stand but I think everybody is speculating about that. And I am going to speculate and say no Lori will not be taking the stand not today. Colt mom not today coal. Mom Yeah heard a sea of Nancy Grace Yancey grace. I haven't seen her forever. Like I used to watch her show when she was big on Jodi Arias and whatnot which I will be talking about in a moment but she she angry. I love how she talks down to you and kind of almost like you feel like you're in trouble with your teacher when Nancy Grace's telling you about this and she's a so alerting laker voices the most languish like all my God God like she's so but God God bless hersal 'cause like I I do I do like her but like her voice sometimes her inflections giving all the little nicknames that she comes up like something insane but So Nancy Grace has now announced. Laurie Bello as Colt Mom. So I'm going to forever call her Colt Mom Kaltbaum. Your and we'll like here's the thing is that like it's not. I'm not even being sensationalist when I say that this is crazy. This is one of the craziest cases I've ever seen. And even even the guy who hosts a dateline came out and was like this was the craziest thing. I've ever seen in my life. This is the craziest thing live. Ever seen Yeah and it was just like. It's this insane to me that this is even happening. I never heard of anything like this. You know what I learned so much about L. D. S. and like mormonism and stuff and I honestly even more than I wanted to know. I'm a line to you like it's an afterthought in my head to be like you know. I want to learn about Mormons. No not really. You know. I don't like unless you have a reason to learn about certain like different religious groups in that DEF. Yeah you're not gonNA probably ever explore it so this is actually kind of open and it actually helps it iron out some myths behind Mormons. And I think that it's a good educational experience on other hand. It's like we're the kids so one other thing too in regards to the hearing. Is that a lot of people. Got have been pouring over the picture of Chad table Sitting there in court and wondering who? The people were sitting behind Laurie. So in the very back of the courtroom was like overflow seating right like whoever showed up the court and he was like seventy some odd people Had seats in the back of the gallery or whatever But there are three people sitting right in front of Today Bell. And just so you guys know it has been a proper. It wasn't were cult. People it was a staffer with Idaho. Supreme Court a Magistrate Judge and then a Madison County clerk. So your father's we don't have like a full fucking Colt. You know it's not Manson with his followers. It's was just some some legal people. Well we I I will. I'll be the judge of that without bias of whether or not they have bias does come in to play on this because I think it's safe to say that when you live in a small town and everyone knows everyone especially within religion and stuff like that you have to take an air of caution okay like sorry like small communities will small community and I will leave it at that but I will this. Okay I think that we may end up hitting issue with Lori why why would I think we're going to have an issue with Lori? Because I think that she is intelligent. I think she has been a fucking mastermind. And I don't. I'm sorry to say this other than stating the obvious. Child Day Bill. I feel like He. There's just something more going on behind him. Like when I look at him like you. Obviously he can't be trusted clearly. But like there's this ono I think he's behind some of this speculation clearly speculation. I'm I'm being very speculative right now. I would like to know more about his involvement in less. I mean obviously he's a shit bag but there's something super ship Bagheri about him and he looks like a chocolate suspicious and become a big monkey brow on him and like his his smug face. It's like how he has no lips. It's weird fucking creeper man. I think I have. The idea agree. That Lori is very smart and calculating I mean my God. Look good her entire life. It seems like she's jumped from one. I mean she's very attractive okay. Laurie was very very attractive So she very easily could maneuver herself around from husband attractive older. You know. All of her husband's were a little bit older so attractive older husband to attractive or husband. You know very easily so I do believe that. She is pretty calculating. Do you think we have a block on our hands. I don't know I WANNA know. I'm completely torn as far as what I think actually happened with all of this. I do not know one thing that was really interesting though so beyond lorries reaction to being called Day Bell and how she looked at him and smirked and whatnot right. So Julie Rowe my favorite crazy bitch if you recall in any of your previous episodes or online. Julia Ro used to be friends which day bow they did their podcast together. She published books with Todd. Eyeball whole bet. She claims that Chad debut confided in her that he lived multiple lives on multiple other planets and one of those lives. He claims was as James. The Less Aka James the just who was the brother of Jesus. Can I please say that's crazy? And also bless you Justin Lum. According to divorce papers obtained by Fox Thirteen Phoenix in January. Laurie Valo believed that she had been married to James. The just in a past life so this kind of further proves that you know what other people have been saying even that Laurie Charles Valid said it before he died that Lori feels that she'd lived multiple lives and is connected to people and the same thing that Chad preaches in some of his writings but he's lead multiple lives and had visions and so on and so forth so it seems guys that they are connected. Because Laurie feels like she was married to the brother of Jesus okay. I don't care if your religion tells you that you're supposed to be the wizard of the the school of witchcraft. Anybody who has like these false notions of like an illusion of grandeur scares the shit out of me It just tells me that you saw. Somebody believes that they are literally a God and they are untouchable is a little weird. Especially when there's like you know her past okay you have her pass and then you have the fact that she has a pattern of behavior by even point out by the prosecutor does super concerning and suspicious as hell. Yup and someone comes on. But I'm God let me tell you what God's are okay. Don't forget now again. I will mention this every episode. I I I like almost one countdown ticker to the end of the world because like what July twentieth that they believe that the world is going to end the twentieth or twenty second She's like a portal is GonNa Appear Lake. It's just so bad but you know I wonder and all of this and this ties into what I think happened to the children because speculation alert it is bat shit insane to choose jail time overproducing children right like it's about shit all logic would tell you. She killed these kids and she cannot produce them. You're right like that's one right but religious extremists and people in these fringe. Groups aren't logical. They aren't logical and so I find myself wavering back and forth on whether I think the children are dead or alive or maybe they've been squirrelled away somewhere to be protected or maybe because Chad Day bill. This week also apparently said that the children are safe. Yeah but we could all lake lie out of are assholes me like well. You know it's safe today. Well and meanwhile there's like a dead body under the floorboard right. No there's the body officer were serious right but you cannot weirder shit. Has in fact happened so you know the religious extremism and like delusions delusions have. I don't know I feel like I have to account for that like with Lori and to me what's like super concerning is the fact that I did hear through the grapevine but a lot of the fringe groups and there's a lot of sacks of any religion and don't believe that you should take your medication now. I wonder how much my laureus supposed to be on that? She's not taking you know because it seems that she's mentally ill clearly. She's mentally ill wall. And this is where we get into the energy healers and we can connect and this is why in the next couple of weeks. We're going to have a guest on who is Mormon who is actually going to explain from a scripture point of view within the LDS. Church like what a lot of the stuff means and everything but you know that goes to energy healers so a lot of the people that Chad surrounded himself with an avowal preparing a people were energy workers. And this also goes for. Zulema Pakistanis if you look at her right. The woman who married Alex right before his death she on every website on the Internet list herself as an energy healer an energy worker. So there's just so much bat shit like new age fringe religious in here. I just like I can't make up my mind with what happened to the children like Lori. Literally issue coldblooded killers a smart coldblooded killer. Is She fanatic religious? Not Job ended. They just happened to cross. I honestly I don't know and this is why it's really important to go into things with an open mind especially when you're viewing waiting on to come in there. We don't have much evidence yet. As that suggests the truth that points us to the truth of the matter we can sit here and we can speculate and be like the children we can. We're GONNA find children or the children are dead. We can say that or should we can say that. She's a block widower. We can say all kinds of things but it doesn't mean it's true a so. I stand on unbiased notion that I actually don't know I can sit here and speculate like well that's suspicious. Yes if something presents be suspicious more than likely. There's probably something wrong. Yeah there's no coincidences right. And I've heard a lot of speculation that where people make presumptions. Let's try and set aside some assumptions and let's really try and just as evidence comes in as the police do their work and really liked. Take it in for what it is and be like. Wow you know because it's GonNa be so impactful this case It is it's it we're just GONNA have to take it one day time and see you know when the evidence in this is going to be a very long case like right like this is going to be a very long case. the FBI is there. A law enforcement is working. It is winter currently in the area. There's snow on the ground you know we will see but It's definitely it's really interesting. It's heaping us. Obsessed with the case we on this children are missing right. You have a clock. That's working against you on any missing person and nonce. What makes me nervous and I'm sure there's other people who are listening. I'm not sure that kind of perspective. that time is of the essence. Yup No it very much and you know also this week completely unrelated but the Evelyn. Boswell case came to an end unfortunately on if you recall she was fifteen month. Old Baby Her mother same thing went missing. DuNno where she is. She was with family. She was his family. She's a friend she's this. Babysitter just changed her story so often that finally authorities believe that they found the baby's body. But so saw yeah. They found her on a like a family. A family property. What a monster. Yes so you know. Unfortunately this week that came to an end I hope. Hope hope that the same thing lean. We're not reading the same thing about These two children and that took place in Tennessee. Cry Editing listen to us so really sad ending their the. Yeah that's that's pretty much the only update the we have for this week as I put out an on instagram and again if you do not follow us on instagram please do. It is our new instagram account. And that is at. We saw the devil podcast again. We saw the devil podcast. I put up that. We've been covering the Laurie. Follow case nonstop and we are going to start. You know keeping up the coverage we will absolutely keep putting out update episodes for all of you but we are also going to start going into other cases right like other stories other cases and whatnot. So expect us to start once again branching out and and do you have anything else Inspired of Amanda. She's Lost Vegas. She literally doesn't know where she is right now. No I'm kidding. I don't know but either way she she's she's probably still awake. She doesn't sleep. I want everyone to know a little bit about Amanda. She never sleeps and she's always watching she hasn't she hasn't aid We Miss You. Amanda for this embassy we do also I hope everyone is washing their hands in staying out of severely populated places. I don't know about you guys but there will be a criminal case and it will turn into a true crime episode if someone even comes even five feet around me and coughs. Hey good podcast. Listener is alive podcast. Listen Okay Right. Stay alive supporter patriotic on. So we can keep giving you the Bessler Avello coverage right here right now. Yes so you can sign up and please be a patron but you can find us at Patriotair dot com slash. We saw the double and we have some killer tears. Here for you Ranging all the way from three dollars a month to twenty five dollars a month and if you do the twenty five dollars a month a murderer box with a bunch of goodies including a t shirt so you will be an executive co producer of the show and get a t shirt. You'll anything beyond below that. For the most part five dollars up get stickers and other cool stuff and we were right you we will hand right you every month so another announcement jockey announcement what we are coming to. Rexburg we are. We will be in Rexburg the week of my birthday the week of my birthday we will be in. Rexburg and we will be game live coverage in video. Okay so if you become a patron you can get early. Release of video coverage I'm going to be bringing a drone and everything so you should literally tighten up your panties and support us it. Your support means the world to us and if you can become a patron we really appreciate your financial backing so we can give you the best sound. You know the best youtube videos and so forth so please think about becoming a patron. Also you'll be as Jackie. Said you will be able to get basically the early release footage of our trip to expert. And we do have a couple of interviews lined up. So think about that please. Also we appreciate your reviews on Itunes stitcher whatever platform you use if you cut the most important part of podcasting review so if you like the show if you just like us if you just missed Amanda lead US JUST MISSED AMANDA. Then leave us a review please and we would greatly appreciate it other than that you can find is that we saw the double dot Com burr website or on twitter at we saw the devil and instagram. We saw the devil podcast. Ken Thank you for listening and we will see you next week talk.