20 Episode results for "Ian Brady"

Myra Hindley

Women and Crime

40:42 min | Last month

Myra Hindley

"This extra effort of women and crime. Uk edition is presented by acorn tb. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing nature listener discretion is advised over a period of two years. Five children would disappear in manchester england and would never be seen by their loved ones again known as the most notorious child murders of their time. The country was shocked when the identity of the two perpetrators was made public. A killer couple was responsible for these brutal murders. A match made between a cruel sadist and to everyone's surprise a young female accomplice. This is episode. Forty three myra hindley story Hi amy again. How doing great to see you today and to be back recording this special. Uk edition of women and crime and loving these uk cases. They're so good aren't they. And you know we've had uk request before. And i've put them on the list. But this was really just a great impetus to like start examining the cases that we wanted to and it's so interesting because their systems so different than ours and we know this because because we taught study abroad class we brought our students with us to the uk and we got to visit prisons and courthouses and police training we did a full comparative course so actually this is a perfect setup for us to talk about the differences before we discuss the case in detail though. Let's take a moment to thank our sponsor of today's special edition episode brought to you by acorn tv acorn. Tv is a streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of exclusive award. Winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies. And so much more. Today's the third episode in our special uk addition presented by acorn tv. The myra hindley story now there were a lot of cases to choose from and this was probably the hardest part for me was narrowing them down. Did you have the same problem. yes for sure. Okay so. I chose this case in particular myra hindley because it's one of the most notorious cases and it has been requested by so many of our listeners that you know it was one of the things where i put it on the listen. I had at their over and over again so i thought this is a great opportunity. I also chose this. Because it intersects with my teaching interest which as you know are women in crime in serial offenders. So i feel like this was the one for me amy. Do you know myra hindley. I don't i feel silly saying that since you said it's one of the most notorious yup one of the things that were you and i are really great at is picking cases that maybe you know known or may not be but we don't know them. We're often telling each other a new story. I definitely know the name. I associate the name with something very evil. But that's far as i got right and if you see the pictures which everyone's gonna look at anymore. Look at two. You'll know the picture when you see you go okay. I know there's a famous picture of this to that. You'll know myra hindley was born to a normal working class. Family in nineteen forty to the family dynamic is going to play an interesting role here. I think mars father was gone for the first few years because he was in the military and this was during world war two and so for the first three years of her life. It was just myra and her mother. Her father returned after the war. Unfortunately after he came back he also came back as many people did from the service with a substantial drinking problem and it was a difference namic in the household and then shortly after he returned her sister was born. I mean this is like the baby. Boomer thing and meyer sister was born. Myra was sent to live very close in the neighborhood with her grandmother. They were financially strapped. This was a poor working class neighborhood. I read different accounts of this. You know myra was somewhat somewhat enjoying this. Because she liked living with her grandmother. And because i think she had all the attention over there and i think because she didn't have to share with her sister as much it was a good condition and because she lives so close to home she could keep going back and seeing her family so so she was going back and forth between these. Two homes is my point. Count of her home with her. Her mom and dad were mixed. I read and saw a documentary. That's add there. It was a very loving home. And i have also read though in on multiple in multiple places that her father was tough. He drank a lot that seems to be confirmed and he was abusive. And he encouraged myra to use violence as a solution to problems with others. that came from him Kind of consistently. Her neighborhood while lower working class was tight the type where and this is important where everyone knew their neighbors. And you you trusted people and remember also. This is a different era. This is the nineteen forties myers. Attendance record at school wasn't great but she was very bright and she did well in school when she was there. Kind of like my attendance record. I went to school high school. Myra was also considered pretty fashionable and had sort of an avant-garde. Look one of the things that happened to mirror that was traumatic. In her childhood she had a best friend who died of drowning and this had a very huge impact on her in terms of her behavior in her religious beliefs. I believe it was a male friend and she was about thirteen years old. And i think why this was also traumatic is that she was going to go swimming with him. That day but didn't in. This was a very close friends. So i think there were some guilt associations. So some say that. This was the impetus. This event was like the impetus to her emotional separation from people but at the same time she was forming other connections because she also made an effort here to become involved in religion and she converted to catholicism following this major event fast forward a couple of years at age seventeen myra would become engaged. But that didn't last very long. Myhrl likes the idea of it but found the idea of also traditional life. Boring not very exciting soon after the break up with her fiance she got a job as a typist and job and this is where she would. I meet ian brady. Ian brady had probably what you would view as the opposite childhood. Even if we don't know completely meyer situation. He didn't know his father at all in was born to a single mother who was forced to give him to another family when he was young. Now she still visited him and eventually he would return to live with her. But after many many years but ian was a loner he did not join in with activities by any account he was an odd ball as people described him in also began committing crimes at an early age and by sixteen he had amassed several offenses quite a criminal record. He had served a term of probation already. He had threatened a girlfriend with a knife. He showed serious signs of conduct disorder. Yes don't most. Serial killers have conduct disorder as kids. That's correct because conduct disorder is really just the way. We label antisocial behavior. But when it's in children we call it conduct disorder and advances to adulthood. We call it antisocial. So let me just give you some examples because some people might say what will what is conduct disorder. Look like in children and just so you know taken alone. These behaviors don't necessarily indicate. Your children have conduct disorder but taken together Some of the early signs are certainly physical cruelty to animals and two other children. That's also part of the macdonald triad which we've discussed before you know the triangle of behaviors. That are later to indicate some cereal offending some of the other signs are biting in hitting but serious biting and hitting you know and again not alone. I see you smiling because your kids by in hit. Sorry i know. I know again on. Its own but i know you're thinking But regular biting and hitting theft regular consistent lying these kids also Will often be engaging in acts of arson pretty young so taken together. This is conduct disorder taken alone. This might be just a normal kid. Okay myra was quite enamored with ian. From the first day they met she wrote in her diary frequently about even the smallest things that ian would do such as look at her or e and made a joke today or ian. Was airing an alfred. I took the same age. Myra was a little bit younger than me. And actually so if she was eighteen when she got this job that he was in his early twenties so not a huge age gap but she's still an eighteen year old. Did you have a diary when you were in your teens. I had a diary from when i was ten years old up till today. You still diary. Oh i didn't know that it's not like dear diary. He's so cute anymore. It's more like just like important things like a very quick few lines a day. That's funny do you do it every day. Interesting james's started doing that too. I had a diary when i was about ten eleven. It lasted for like a year. I was like this sucks. It's so fun to read all diaries who quite so far right. We'll she wrote. I mean. I don't know you know you were probably all about who's cute. Who liked to write teenage now. It's like i really wish my kids who go to bed early so our to myself but anyway okay. So i think that the things that myra were writing probably weren't far off for seventeen or eighteen year old girl at the time who's in a diary or eighteen year old woman ian however did not take tomorrow right away or as quickly Some would say this is because ian wasn't really interested in women but eventually the two became a couple seemingly because in was very influential over mirus beliefs and he could influence her world views to become more like his. Myra tried for a while to get his attention. I mean it was definitely a good year. Eventually he asked her out. But i think it was her persistence. That kind of gave in. And i think it's important to note here as i said. I think what ian recognized admira was. She had such admiration for him that he could manipulate or influence advantage of it. You know he had power over her. And i think that that was what was alluring to him. Ian had very distorted political religious and sexual views and he exposed myra two different world views than she had been accustomed to that she had grown up with you know in a strict disciplinarian religious home. He introduced her to sadistic sexual behaviors which they engaged with together. He also influenced her. He denounced religion and so he influenced her views on religion remember. She had been a catholic. He had an obsession with nazi. Germany and montcalm So he was very influenced by hitler and hitler's teachings. I think their first movie might have been the nuremberg trials. That's a bad sign. Somebody's interested in that. You might want to run the other way. These are all bad signs. Actually from ian. And i think what you're gonna find as it gets much worse quickly as they're dating and has they've been spending time together and has he. Can you know see that. He's influencing her he. I asked myra to help him with a robbery which they didn't actually commit. He didn't really ultimately come- into saks. I'm not sure if he wasn't really interested. I think with this was more of a test he was looking to see. Was meyer loyal. And how far would she go for him. And in that regard. Meyer proved very successful very quickly for ian so they skip the robbery and escalated to some of the most serious violent offenses imaginable. Those targeting children. Pauline reade was the first victim of this statistic duo. Pauline was sixteen and on the night of for disappearance. She was all dressed up for a dance that she was supposed to attend with her friends at her school her mom i watched the documentary and her mom described her exact outfit and how she walked her daughter to the end of the street watching her. Go off and seeing her so happy and it was. You know really a sad moment when you heard the description and saw everything and what happened in. This instance is that. Myra borrowed a van and drove it behind. Her brady was following on a motorcycle. And what he was actually doing with scouting for victims when brady saw pauline walking alone down the street getting towards the evening time. He flashed morrow with his motorcycle and that was the signal that he had picked out his victim. And then it was myers. Turn to jump in. And what role was to lure the young girl into the van. And this wasn't really difficult for myra. Because of the small community they lived in my actually new pauline rate so she was easily able to get her into the car and they're like they're kind of peers. Right how old is myra. She's not that old. Yes so that's the interesting part. Because pauline sixteen and i think myra might have been twenty you know. I mean not exactly peers macaque. Yeah close enough in age. It was a bizarre situation though. Because i watch these two documentaries. And they said that. Myra asked her to help with some miniscule task and i'm like okay. What's that miniscule task. Myra said she lost a glove but it was really important. It could pauline help her find it so random. It's a random bizarre thing. I also don't know how important gloves were than bill. Maybe it was expensive but anyway. Pauline essentially agreed pretty quickly to help her. Was pauline on her way to the dancer way home. She was on her way to it. And i think she was meeting her friends. And so i'm imagining that mirus. Can you tell me find something that'll give you a ride. Your friend's house during yeah and again knew each other. She's a female two females. It's it's more innocuous. But what pauline didn't know is that ian brady was going to be following them and would meet up with them. Brady followed them to the remote wilderness of saddleworth more more is a rugged hilly area covered in mossy grass and this unpopulated area. He basically took pauline alone for a while. There is not much description here. Except that myra drove out there. He walked pauline out alone. Myra stayed behind and what we do know. Is that somewhere in the moore's in this area. He sexually assaulted pauline and slashed her throat. And then he called myra over to the scene to help him clean up and drive away from the scene. The description here is basically that myra led the girl in ian took her. Myra goes and waits based on whose account both of their account. This was definitely based on the police account and then myers account. But it's also alleged but not proven that. Myra participated in the sexual assault on pauline as well. That information didn't come 'til much later and that could not be corroborated later on. I'm not sure about this. Ian had the sadistic tendencies already and he had been accustomed to harming people. I think that this was mirus first. Introduction and by the way by all accounts she was actually excited to help him and she was excited to be a part of this not like scared. But i'm not sure on the first go if she would have participated in this so i think i would take this one with a grain of salt this their first victim their next victim a young boy twelve year old. John gilbride now long after quickly. This happened all in a two year period. Which is kind of quick because we're talking about five victims of the end so for serial offenders. Two years five victims is somewhat quick. He was lord by the couple to the car after coming out of a movie to the cinema by himself and with my renton the car again. He was probably not too afraid. This was a different again. A different time tight knit community. People were certainly more trusting. You knew your neighbors. John was then unfortunately There's going to be similar pattern. He was taken out to the moors and led by his death and returned after about a half an hour explaining that he had strangled the boy with a shoelace because his knife broken him. Yeah this is i mean. There's a brutal crimes their next victim the victim number. And myra wasn't didn't take part in that myra did not take. We don't know for sure. I will say that we are going to know for sure. One of the crimes at meyer took pardon. She admittedly freely admitted that she was an accomplished. She planned it. She drove but she would say that she did not take part you separate with the end. Give him his space to do what he was going to do. Their next victim was twelve year. Old keith bennett again. Using the same modus operandi keefe was coaxed in the vehicle. Keith was actually walking the short distance from his mother's house to his grandmother's house in the local neighbourhood. He was taken to the more henley followed behind him this time but she stood as lookout while brady sexually assaulted and then murdered the boy in the moors and they left his body. They always left the bodies there. The next murder would be the fourth one and this would be different. This was murder of ten year old. Lesley ann downey young. Leslie was at a fair when she was lord to their car by the promise of a reward to help this young couple. Carry some bags to their car. They had a couple of bags near her and they dropped to them. They were like food bags and said oh. Would you mind helping us. We'll give you you know something for the fair. And so i mean she's a ten year old girl but in this instance when they got her to the car take straight up to the. Moore's they took leslie to their whole which marks a very substantial change in their pattern at their home. They bound her the gag. addressed her. They photographed her e and strangled her her body cleaned in the tub and they eventually transported her to the moore's the next day and disposed of her. But why this is different. And why this is significant. There's a couple of things first of all taking her to the home means. They're getting more comfortable. they're going straight to the moore's they don't want to be ready to home that once see. They're getting comfortable and that's they're getting more bolder but they're also then getting more reckless because they are taking a big chance and this does happen with people. When they're getting a little more successful they escalate things happen. A little quicker and some people were can perfect their craft but others are going to take more risks. Because they've got away with it a today show is sponsored exclusively by our favourite british streaming service acorn tv and we invite everyone to support acorn. Tv because their support allows us to keep our show free for you all. Here's why we love them. Acorn tv is a commercial free streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of award winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies and so much more and acorn. Tv has exclusive premieres and originals. That you won't see anywhere else. Amy right now. I am super excited about law and order uk. I knew you would love that one. I've watched every law and order from the beginning. I've been a fan for years. You've seen several many times. Oh i can recite some of them by heart for all eu law and order fans out there. Dick wolf's long-running us police procedural drama gets a british tweak as the action shifts from new york to london. The irish independent describes the iconic cop and courtroom station just as engrossing as its american counterpart you can stream law and order uk on acorn tv now. Plus you get thousands of hours of new refreshing content on court. Tv for a fraction of the cost compared to most dreaming services at just five ninety nine a month from all of us that women in crime uk we think acorn tv for sponsoring today's show because it sponsors like acorn tv that make what we do possible. Try acorn tv free. For thirty days by going to acorn dot tv and use my promo code. Women that's acorn. A. c. o. r. n. dot tv and use my promo code women w. o. m. e. n. Myra was always the lore. This is similar. we've talked about some cases. between males and females I don't know if you remember when we covered. Karla homolka and paul bernardo at. That's what i was thinking this whole time. You are okay. Yeah i mean. Women are obviously easier to trust especially for vulnerable victims children. It also makes me think of case i covered with. It wasn't a male and partner. But do you remember the melissa. Huckaby case how. Could i forget that. Okay you know. She was easily able to lure her neighbors and sandra cantu into the car because sandra knew her she's a woman she's also a mother so this makes women because of their gender A better lore. They got bolder but then they got even more bold and really i would say they just got careless arrogant and stupid on this. Because it was their last victim that would be their downfall of these. Two serial killers brady had allegedly so ian had allegedly met seventeen year old edward gabe bar. And the implication was that brady had lured him to the house. With the idea of a sexual encounter now brady had been sort of grooming myra as brother-in-law david smith for some time meyer sister. Maureen was married to david smith. They were younger at this point. Ian is in his twenties. So as myra. But david smith was only seventeen and i don't know how older sister maureen was. But smith became enamored with ian brady and with his lifestyle and saw him. You know kind of as a bad ass. You know not knowing. He did not know the extent of brady's you know violent tendencies but he did know that he was you know he engaged in criminal activities. And what brady thought was that. He could recruit smith into his crimes and his lifestyle. But into the whole lifestyle. And so once. Brady had edward evans at the house. And david smith was there as well he murdered evans with a hatchet to his skull from behind after sexually assaulting him he didn't sexually assault him but he murdered him in front of david smith. It's with his way to see a kid could hang. It was yes and essentially what happened to was that he put him in the position of will. Now you're in on this. You know what i mean. And i mean what happened was basically a terrified. David smith took orders and he helped clean up the mess and cover up the body for disposal. But we're there for this one. Oh yeah myers and air cleaning in the kitchen As if though this was not such an abnormal and she was definitely present for this one and she wasn't at all appalled or whatnot. It was it was pretty obvious that she had become accustomed to this but they underestimated david smith because he went home afterwards and he and his wife called the police. He did not want anything to do with murder. This was a step too far for him. He also mentioned a suitcase that the two had filled with incriminating evidence of their crimes in the house. He saw them do it and they removed the suitcase from the house. So now the police are thinking. Okay great we have a witness to something. But they're like what's in this suitcase case. You know if we're going to search the house where we're gonna find if they've moved everything out so while they were executing a search of the house based on this phone call. The police found a ticket for a left luggage station in manchester. Have you ever heard the term before. I don't know if we just don't know the turnabout left luggage is a place where you can leave luggage short term. I yeah i wouldn't know anything either. And so the police got the ticket and they went and retrieved the suitcases when they went through the suitcase. They found everything to help them. Identify what myra and ian had done and who their victims were. Here's where i said member leslie. Ann would be different because they took all those photographs of her in their home so they found the photographs of her. And what's even worse. Amy is found a tape that e n and my remained recording her. It was so upsetting that most of the officers cried when they were listening to it. Apparently lesley cried out from her mother and prayed to god to help her on this. Sixteen minute tape. And here's what else it showed. Though then later was involved. Not only was she involved but she sadistic too and she enjoyed it. She's cruel and it shows it clearly that it's not just ian and she's the subdued one. She was an equal participant here. so that's why she was involved in the absolutely yes. She was involved. Police were also to match fingerprints or photographs. Tamara in ian from the suitcases. The photographs also helped because they had photographs at different parts in the moors and the police were like. They're taking photographs near their gravesites. So it was. They were able to help with locating and retrieving some of the victims. There were a lot of photos and they they start for miles and miles. You have to understand. The the land is very difficult and on one of the searches. They just didn't find anything you know for a long time. And then an officer went out to like relieve himself and wound up coming across a bone and when it was fully prodded it was determined to be small girl. It turned out to be leslie. So that's how they found her. Well now we're moving to you. Know ian and myra are arrested. And they go to trial when they went to trial and tried to protect myra he actually wrote to her. Giving her ideas for how to distance herself from the crimes but myra was more resolute that she and ian were both innocent so she was loyal to him prior to trial as well. This is a change to normally. What happens is someone turns on the other one. They did not turn each other. She refused to blame in to save herself and ian wouldn't turn either until much later. That is unfortunately. Her strategy failed in fact. Had she listened to him. I think she might have had a very different outcome. We've seen this happen before. Just talking about case in point karla homolka and paul bernardo carlos struck a deal she cooperated and she got twelve years whereas bernardo got life. He's up for pearl that he'll never get out. There's also a couple that i thought of though Craig titus kelly ryan have you ever heard of them. They murdered their assistant. Melissa james i remember this They were both involved and he wound up with something like twenty to fifty years but she got paroled. Twelve years again for turning on him for myra this likely have proven successful strategy in terms of her sentence because these two were both found guilty and was ultimately charged with the murders of lesley. Ann downey john gilbride and edward edmonds and he was found guilty for all and received three life sentences for his crimes. Myra was charged with lesley ann. Downey and edward ends and to being an accessory to the murder of john gilbride and she received two life. Sentences in prison are if you're going to get into this. But why would they charge her with murder. They had evidence as you said that she was an accomplice with the she was charged with murder for two of the cases for leslie and they had the tape and for edward edmonds. Because they had david smith testifying that myra helped gotcha For john gilbride. I suspect they didn't have enough proof for them. One at that time after this trial myra had maintained her innocence for many years. She cleaned the tape. She said that it was all and basically what she said was that she was a victim of him. So she's turning on him now because he said at first. She said they were both innocent. Yeah okay she did turn on him. It took years and what she said. Was that yeah. He was the mastermind. I was under his control. I was his victim like other people were several years later. She finally confessed. And at this point she really had no other options to get out of prison. She was eligible for parole to certain point and maintaining her innocence was not gonna work for her and she realized it and she realized that no one believes it anymore so she began to talk about. This took twenty years. Just say you know mind you but she began to talk about her role in the murders and offered to help the police because she was hoping it would get her parole. She was hoping that it was in response as well to keep bennett. Remember one of the victims. Bennett's mother wrote to myra pleading with her to please help. We can't find his body. All i wanted her his remains. I think this did provide somewhat of an impetus from irish. She might have had some type of feelings. But i think she also realized that this was an opportunity for her to work with the police. Myra had been a model inmate all those years. Mind you for twenty years. And she had been advocating for her own release very publicly and so. This was another way. She could try to basically secure parole. And you still have these two missing victims. You still had pauline and keith. Who had never been recovered. Their families wanted their remains. And so did the police brady would also talk to the police. But it was different so ian. Talk to the police. But he'd only discuss two of the murders. Pauline and keith. Ian brady was extremely difficult though. He would not allow the police to take notes when he came in. They said that he always had to be in control dictating the course of actions that they took how they did it but brady wasn't able to help them find the remains. It was long after. And myra had trouble to. This was monday. Twenty years the terrain had changed. They couldn't remember exactly where anything was regarding ian. There was dr alan keatley. A college tutor from the west midlands befriended brady and asked him what his motivation was for targeting. These children brady answered existential exercises in other words testing his theory that he was free to live as he liked and seeing how far he can push it. Preoccupations were lowering me to take the path of pure in which the will to dare all and suffer. The consequences was becoming all important and solution. Would it really is is basically saying. Because i wanted to. I wanted to do way of saying that. I wanted to do it. I wanted to see how far i could go. And because you know you people have a boring life. But i'm doing exactly what i wanted to do. Brady said the morons out. There are the ones who are mad. People who live conventional dull boring. Life's so his was anything but conventional and he was pushing the boundaries. He also said myra was surprisingly in tune with me from the very beginning. I was never conscious of having to exert myself to coarser into accepting my belief in relativist morality. She was as ruthless. As i was. So he's now throwing her under the bus a little bit. Yeah no he's definitely is the didn't blame her and say she did certain things that he did but he said she was. She accepted this. She chose mister nice girl. Brady was also diagnosed as being chronically psychotic later on in life. So maybe you're right about the delusions suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Which was marked by perceptual disturbances. Delusional ideas disorganized thaw in speech. This diagnosis came in nineteen eighty-five and he went on a very long hunger strike and had to be force fed from two. So what happened is that they didn't. The police didn't have any luck with him. But the police did have more luck with myra helpful. She was able to locate the gravesite of pauline. So the families and the and the police were able to get pauline remains back and brady meanwhile goes on to die in prison after being bedridden for several years at the age of seventy-nine from emphysema. Myra died in prison at age. Sixty after serious respiratory failure. They did not ever find keith. Bennett's body however after brady's death he left to lock suitcases for his lawyer to keep the police bennett's family have hoped there be way like clues to keith whereabouts in these suitcases but to date they've not been able to gain access to the documents in the suitcases. Very recently. there was talk of home secretary. Pretty patel preteen patel to bring a new police crime sentencing in court spell which would force the killers lawyer solicitor to grant police access to those briefcases. That's probably the last hope for finding the remains of this young boy. All right amy. I'm gonna ask you what your thoughts are on. Ian and brady who i think is more straightforward. You mean. how can we explain ends behavior. Sure the fact that he had conduct disorder that really planes. That all right. He had antisocial tendencies from a young age. Yeah and i don't. I don't think you need much more other than you know that you said he had a tough upbringing. I can't remember now. Yeah no yeah. It was an awful childhood early conduct disorder later antisocial behavior. I would also say though He had a preference for children. I believe and i think his preference for children was around ten to twelve some of his were victims of opportunity. But i think that's the age range is a pedophile a sadistic pedophile. Yeah it was a sadistic interesting because you know you have sexual offender versus sexual predator which is different. The predator are more dangerous as they're not seeking like a pedophile seeks to establish a relationship with the people in the age group so he wasn't seeking to establish which makes him a clear predator. He's the most dangerous sign. So i think it's fair assessment to say he he developed into full blown psychopathy. Now how about myra. There's a couple of big questions here. I mean one of them is. How do we explain. Her behavior would have become a killer if she never met ian. Was she a sadistic sexual killer. If she didn't carry out the killing but she enjoyed it. Is she a pleaser. She a psychopath so there are a lot of questions here. What what would be your opinion. I mean she's clearly sadistic whether or not. She participated in any of the crimes like just knowing they were happening. And being that accomplice clearly sadistic i think definitely sadistic tendencies. How do you explain it. Is there any criminological theory. That comes to your mind. Giving the background that i told you about her as well. I mean social definitely social learning. She was learning from in. She was learning from two people l. Her father's violence gas well. I believe you mentioned that. Her father taught her the way to solve. Problems is too violent. Obviously if you you know you look at where the most influenced by those closest. That was her father teaching her. This is the way we handle things and then she meets this man who she clearly enamored by and he's violent so it's just it's also reinforced differential reinforcement to right. It's reinforcing that violence gets you what you want. Because they didn't get caught right away. Each time they got away with it that reinforces the fact that oh this is working. So we're going to do it again. Think definitely social learning which obviously differential association and differential reinforcement are under social learning. But it's just the idea that she was learning these behaviors from people around. I agree learning theory. It's hard to evaluate female psychopathy as well because there aren't any solid measures or at least the pc l. r. and other diagnostic tools. Were not originally intended for women and the little research on female psychopathy shows that there are similarities between male and female psychopaths. But they're different also in that women don't have the same criminal behaviors. They don't tend to show the outward aggression. you think she was a psychopath. I think maybe yeah. No i do think she was their emotional feelings. Also differ. they tend to be more anxious their differences between males and females. But when i look at the shared characteristics the lack of empathy the pension for manipulation. Lying need for stimulation and boredom. I think myra does probably fit in there. I agree though that she also probably socialized in some ways into vilocci. I'm sure she had a personality disorder and there too. Well i if if if she's antisocial i mean if we're talking about that is the personality disorder and psychopathy isn't psychopathy is them most extreme form. But i'm saying you could be antisocial without being psychopathic. Yes you can have antisocial traits without being. That's what i'm saying so she. I think she might be antisocial. I don't know if she escalates. Psychopathy go i with four idea psychopathy. I think so. But i couldn't be positive but beyond beyond criminal logically. There's the notoriety of myra. So why the notoriety i. She's a woman and for that she's more reviled than ian Woman who committed sexual acts and murder against children thus violating the gender role especially of the nineteen sixties of the housewife motherly woman. There's also the fact that just one year before their trial. Britain eliminated the death penalty and so people were up in because they they just say these are the cases that deserve yes and it was just like god if we'd just held onto it for another year there's also the relation to rosemary west. Have you heard of her. Of course yes okay. So she's also a very notorious serial killer And the fact that the incarceration of these two women overlapped now rosemary. West's was much later. She was in the nineteen nineties. But the comparisons made between them and the supposed- relationship they briefly shared in prison really yes. They both had experiences with females. Later on which happens in prison but so it became a sanguine when the two of them kinda so they were romantically involved rumored that they were briefly. Romantically involved cannot so interesting but they also shared the same. They were both sadistic child. Serial killers who killed with their partners and whose crimes involve violence and both very notorious cases in the the only difference and it said that myrow seemed to look down on west because west killed some of her own children. And myra is rumored to have felt superior. One of the reasons are the legacy and reputation of myra hindley lives on and fifty five years later. She is still dubbed the most evil woman in britain. And we just want to say a big again to acorn tv. For giving us the opportunity to bring you additional four episodes. Don't forget to try your thirty days free at. Www dot acorn tv when you use promo code women thanks again. Everyone for listening. And we'll catch you next time on women in crime. Women in crime is written and hosted by megan sacks and amy schlossberg our producer and editor is james. Varga music composition is by desert media. If you enjoyed the show please remember to subscribe and leave a review. You can also support the show while gaining access to add free episodes exclusive. ama's and other bonus content for a small monthly contribution for patriot for more information visit patriotic dot com slash women and cry Sources for today's episode include documentary the moors murders the new york times the documentary the horrible crimes of myra henley the journal of personality disorders psychology. Today bbc news the daily star and the sun today show is sponsored exclusively by our favorite british streaming service acorn tv and we invite everyone to support acorn. Tv because their support allows us to keep our show free for you. All here's why we love them. Acorn tv is a commercial free streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of award winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies and so much more and acorn. Tv has exclusive premieres and originals. That you won't see anywhere else this one. I'm excited about. Because i was a huge fan of shameless. This one is called. No offense and it's from the creator of shameless. No offense is a gritty drama full of twists and turns fierce female characters and shrewd irreverent. Take on crime. No offense is a bafta nominee for best drama series and the new york times called it a beautiful balance of seriousness and binge ability. No offense is the no-hold-bars police procedural you didn't know you've been looking for streaming now on acorn tv from all of us that women in crime. Uk we think acorn tv for sponsoring today's show because it sponsors like acorn tv. That make what we do possible try acorn. Tv free for thirty days by going to a corn dot tv and use my promo code women. That's acorn r. n. Dot tv and use my promo code women w. o. m. e. n.

myra myra hindley Myra ian acorn pauline brady ian brady david smith meyer uk Ian brady Hi amy karla homolka Myhrl Pauline Ian myers admira leslie
October 16, 2020: Lesley Ann Downey Found Dead

Today in True Crime

17:01 min | 6 months ago

October 16, 2020: Lesley Ann Downey Found Dead

"Shipped, is delivery done differently, their expert shoppers, pickup, fresh groceries, household essentials, and even pet supplies from local stories you love. Get everything delivered to your door and as soon as one hour. About, full shoppers, unbelievably fresh produce and peace of mind. That's the difference shipped makes try same-day delivery for yourself at dot com slash true crime today once again, that's S.. H. I. P. T. dot com slash true crime. Due to the graphic nature of these crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of extreme sexual abuse and violence towards children that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. Today is Friday, October Sixteenth Two thousand twenty on this day in nineteen sixty five. British police found the body of missing ten year old girl Lesley Ann. Downey Lesley was one of the five young victims of serial killers, Ian Brady, and Myra Hindley. Welcome to today in true crime a spotify original from podcast due to the graphic nature of today's crimes. Listener discretion is advised extreme caution is advised for listeners under thirteen. Today, we're covering the grisly end of the search for ten year old Leslie and. Let's go back to October Sixteenth Nineteen sixty-five to win eerie isolated place in northern England known as Saddleworth Moor. The Manchester Police spread out across Saddleworth a thirty mile expanse of hill country. They were determined to find Lesley Ann Downey and had strong reason to believe she was buried somewhere on the more unfortunately authorities had only discovered that information while investigating the murder of another youth named. Edward. The sudden break came under. Circumstances but it meant investigators finally had the chance to solve a mystery that had haunted Manchester and Leslie family for ten long months. Leslie was last seen on December twenty, six, nine, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, four boxing day in England the Brunette blue eyed ten year old lived in an apartment in Manchester with her mother three brothers and her mother's fiance shy polite. Leslie was likely in high spirits that day she'd gotten a toy sewing machine from Santa the morning before and there was no cause for post. Christmas blues. She was even going to a local holiday carnival with her neighbors and siblings her mother had given her a whole six pence to spend. The carnival was a winter wonderland, but by early evening Leslie was left alone at the fair. Some sources indicate that are friends had run out of money and gone home while others say she was left there by her older brother either way Leslie was defenseless as she strolled straight into the path of dangerous killer who upon first glance appeared just as innocent and wholesome as Leslie. Herself. A young woman in her twenties walked by Leslie that night dropping a bag onto the ground as she passed, she asked Leslie to help her pick it up and loaded in her car which the polite girl gladly. In the parking lot the woman asked if Leslie wanted to ride home, she allegedly accepted and the two drove off together. That was the last night. Anyone saw Lesley Ann Downey alive. When Lesley's mother and her future husband Alan realized the girl was missing they set off for the fairground to find her after having no luck there. They went to the police though Lesley's family held out. Hope as the officers mounted a search effort, the little girl would remain missing until. October nineteen, sixty five. That month Manchester Police received unsettling information from a traumatized young man named David Smith. He claimed that the night before he'd witnessed his sister in Law Myra Hindley and her boyfriend he and Brady brutally murder a teenager named Edward Evans. Ian Was a mentor to David and made him promise to return the next day to help them Berry Evans in Saddleworth more. But David went to the police instead leading officers to Ian. And Mira's home. After a search they discovered Edwards Body hacked to pieces by an axe by October eleventh, ESPN and Myra were in police custody. The couple's crime was horrific but David claimed it was only the tip of the iceberg Ian and Myra. Had told him that they had killed before. After searching the couples belongings, officers found photos of Saddleworth more along with a notebook page on which a single name was scribbled over and over John Kilbride. Kilbride was a twelve year old boy who had disappeared in November nineteen, sixty three now were certain that Ian and Myra had something to do with it. Continuing their search they soon found a suitcase. The couple had clearly taken pains to hide. It's likely officers were hoping to find a clue about Edward Evans or John kilbride inside but instead they found something much more disturbing. Pictures of Lesley Ann, Downey naked gagged, and tied to a bed police were horrified. It was clear that only Saddleworth Moor held the answers to their disturbing questions on October sixteenth nineteen, sixty, five, a search team was dispatched there. After hours of poking around the Moors Soft Pete and officer noticed the bone of a human arm sticking out of the ground. After a dig, he uncovered the decomposed body of a little girl. By the time the search was over the murder of Lesley Ann Downey would be cemented as one of the most terrifying crimes in British history. Up Next will learn the terrible truth about how Leslie died. Listeners who doesn't love a good ghost story rattling chains mysteriously moving objects unfinished business I am ready for all things spooky and so is podcast network starting October first we're bringing you the scariest most hair raising ghost stories ever imagined every Thursday on the new original series, haunted places, ghost stories, Alistair myrddin summons, a new spine, tingling tale of rates, phantoms, and chilling apparitions. These stories come from all over the world including Japan India, the UK and even ancient Rome don't miss stone cold classics like the Kit bag by Algernon blackwood. A sinister account of a condemned murderers final wish and the lengths he'd go to fulfill it and the me Suray a Spanish tale of a wandering musician who here's a terrifyingly beautiful song in a burned-out monastery and is doomed to capture. It's notes. Until he dies, you can find and follow haunted places, ghost stories free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget. October is our favorite month and one of our busiest. So make sure to search podcast network in the spotify search bar to see all our new shows. This episode today in true crime is brought to you by simply safe simply safe was designed to be easy to use while protecting your whole home twenty, four seven. You can order it online with just the click of a button when mine arrived, I was eager to get it set up immediately it didn't take long I just had to place the sensors plugged in and connected to my Wifi. Then suddenly my whole home was protected I didn't have to worry about tools or drilling or waiting around for technicians. The setup is also intuitive and. The components blend into my home seamlessly as a single mom who's main job is related to true crime. I really appreciate the peace of mind that simply safe brings their pricing is fair honest. You can get twenty, four, seven, professional monitoring and emergency dispatch starting at just fifty cents a day not bad for what US News and World Report called the best overall home security of twenty twenty head to simplisafe dot com slash today and get a free hd camera that simplisafe dot com slash today to make sure they know that our show sent you. Now back the story. On October Sixteenth nineteen sixty five police found the body of ten year old Lesley Ann Downey buried in Saddleworth more officers in Manchester England new Myra Hindley and Ian. Brady were responsible for Leslie's death but they had no idea why the couple had killed an innocent child. It was tragic enough that Lesley's body was found buried in a shallow grave, the nude bound and gagged photos of the girl in Myra. Andeans possession were even more concerning however even those weren't the most disturbing evidence detectives found in the killer couples suitcase. There was also an audio tape and while authorities had to play it for Leslie's mother. So she could identify her daughter watching her listen to it must have been excruciating. The sixteen minute recording was taken on the Night Leslie disappeared December Twenty Sixth Nineteen, sixty, four on it Myra could be heard hitting a struggling leslie so that Ian could photograph her as the poor girl fought against her captors and their sadistic sexual torture Ian threatened to slit her throat throughout the audio of her assault little leslie leded for her mom. The tape was absolutely sickening and that's what prosecutors were counting on when they played it for shocked courtroom at Ian and Mirus trial in April nineteen, sixty six, the couple stood accused of murdering the three children whose bodies had been recovered Leslie, Edward Evans and Jason Kilbride kilbride's body was uncovered in the more just days after police found Leslie it was clear. He'd also been sexually assaulted before his death. Myra and Ian became objects of scorn and fascination for all of England after their arrests on the surface. The twenty-something lovers seemed like average office workers but investigators discovered that they were secretly not only sadists but even Nazi sympathizers. Myra. Lure children in by pretending to need help getting things to her car. It was exactly this tactic that allowed her to kidnap Lesley from the Boxing Day carnival. Afterward, she took the children back to Ian home where they were assaulted tortured and killed then buried on Saddleworth more. During an interrogation in Brady admitted to being the one who planned the murders Myra claimed she was innocent. She insisted that she was always in a different room when the real violence happened and that she was a helpless victim of ESPN's. Manipulation. Myra was somewhat convincing especially because in the nineteen sixties, nobody wanted to believe a nice young woman was really a child murderer but she had one major problem the sixteen minute recording of Leslie's torture and assault featured her as a key player. She sounded just as unhinged as IAN did. On May sixth, nineteen, sixty, six, almost eighteen months after Leslie's death Ian Brady and Myra. Hindley were found guilty both were given consecutive life sentences. Ian was convicted of all three murders with prosecutors were unable to find enough evidence to tie Myra to John Kilbride's death because of this, she would be eligible for parole after twenty five years in prison, and she fully intended to walk free. Throughout the nineteen eighties, Myra desperately tried to downplay her involvement in Lesley's murder. She wrote to Leslie's mother and West claiming that she never tortured the girl even though the audio evidence from the trial clearly contradicted her Leslie's family. Believe it was just mirrors attempt to curry public favor before parole hearings they remained firm in their conviction that Myra was a murderous monster just like her lover he n. In two, thousand, two changes in England's prison laws finally gave Myra a real chance at getting out of jail on parole. But before the change went into effect, she died of a chest infection on November fifteenth two thousand to. Be in Brady died fifteen years later at the age of seventy nine. The kidnapping assault and murder of Lesley Ann Downey was a wakeup call to nineteen sixties. England it showed an entire nation that no child was truly safe not even at a Christmas carnival mere blocks from their mother's house. What was especially scary too many was that Leslie's captors seemed just as innocent. They appeared to be a young couple in love who worked nine to five at least on most days. But every once in a while Ian Brady and Myra. Hindley's disturbing appetite stirred and innocent children paid the price. Thanks for listening today in true crime. I'm Vanessa Richardson. You can find all episodes of today in true crime and all other originals from podcast for free on spotify. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in. True. Crime today in true crime was created by Max Cutler is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler sound designed by Juan Boorda with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly, madden, and Freddie Beckley. This episode of today in true crime was written by a mean Osman with writing assistance by terrel wells, I'm Vanessa Richardson. Remember to join Alistair murden every Thursday for the all new series haunted places. Ghost stories don't miss the most chilling spirits ever imagined by authors from around the world follow haunted places go stories free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

leslie leded Ian Brady Myra Lesley Ann Downey Myra Hindley Downey Lesley Saddleworth murder Edward Evans Lesley Ann spotify England John Kilbride Manchester Police officer Myra Saddleworth Moor assault ESPN
One and Done: Serial Killers and Their Cocktails

Happy Hour Gets Weird

25:13 min | 3 months ago

One and Done: Serial Killers and Their Cocktails

"Hi is i'm cassie and i'm tiffany and we're the host of happy are gets weird podcast where we have cocktails and talk about weird shit and this is our what episode the house margarita of episodes which happens to be our favorite kind of episodes. The dollar draft night non podcasts. Yeah how do you not love a dollar draft night and we're drinking this episode. A were in the middle of dry january like smack dab in the middle pretty much and well a little bit past the middle but we are drinking a kabukicho mule. It's our non alcoholic mock tale. That's redundant markdale But ginger kabukicho with a little bit muddled mint squeeze. The lime and i talked with soda water. And it's pretty good. It's refreshing even if you don't like kabukicho i suggest you try it. I think that it's a really good idea. I'm not superindent buccio. And i keep trying to drink them. But i think. I'm going to make this maybe tonight because it is good for you. It is it is pretty good for you. It's good it's refreshing. I think next time. I make add a little simple syrup or like a garbage or whatever sweet the balanced out be a little bit of a break has its pre- it's on the bitter side but some people like that. Yeah i like being better. Yeah what are we talking about today. Well just so happens that we are not only having a mock tail but we are talking about serial killers and their cocktail or drink of choice. Another serial killer listener Yeah can't doesn't get any better than this or worse. Yeah not our first or last. We've done a few other serial killer list type episodes in you want to check any of them out. We have we We did serial killers zodiac signs and ciro killers last meals on death row and stories of serial killers being caught. Yes and brit from nightmare. Podcast was on that one. That one's a pretty fun. Yeah i mean is it just meters can boost your kind smelly dirty feet. I think that can bucci is the work of the devil. But that's just me the hipster devil. The devil ruled in. he was a hipster. he has a gun. He made cambodia all right. So let's get into this episode because it's going to be a good one the main source for this episode is murder mile tours dot com and also dabbled in. I also dabbled in wikipedia so our first zero killer. On the list is dennis andrew nielsen and he was a scottish. You a killer in the seventies and eighties who had a thing for sex with dead men and seasonal mold wine which made himself. Wow those are pretty Different hobbies that you just mentioned. Yeah he's a with a man of leisure i would. I personally would not call a necrophiliac man of leisure. But that's just me when it wasn't the season of giving nielsen enjoyed a rum and coke specifically captain morgan black label. Dennis would lure homeless men into his apartment under the guise of a warm meal shower and a place to sleep and a cocktail. Of course he would strangle them. Remove their organs which he threw over his fence by the way terrible neighbor. What the i know just could you imagine. He washed the bodies. He dressed them and he would keep them for weeks up to months for a very grotesque companion. Mrs why my opinion rum and coke should be listed as part of the macdonald triad. I agree turn that try into a quad. Yeah mcdonald a quad. We're adding drinkers to the list. The next serial killer profile better have drinks ramon on it it. Just science is pure science. The next on our list. Is john wayne k galaxy all so known as a killer clown he liked to drink a whole bottle of scotch and blackout. But deysi wasn't just a crusty clown you avoided. When he was in his cups he turned out to be a horrific rapist and murderer. Thirty six times over gase would lure unsuspecting men to his house where he sexually assaulted murdered and buried them in the crawlspace under his house. Pathetically gase blamed j. and b. and his blackouts claiming he didn't remember what happened. He was put to death in nineteen ninety four Yeah fuck off. Not you casey. I was wondering you're like whoa sorry. I'm just reading here. yeah don't shoot the messenger. Ian brady and myra hindley a disturbing killer couple that targeted killings in manchester england during the sixties the worst at the actual worst this couple from hell drank chap white wine. Ian had a hobby of making his own in a barrel with veggies scraps sugar and alcohol. Sadly ian myra were able to kidnap murder five children before they were caught and these sweet babies are known as the moors murders so so sad yet they were despicable like straight up demon people. Obviously and who the fuck essentially makes their own prison wine at home pet. it's weird. it's okay so there is a trend. I see i think people are kind of sketchy and and coupled with try to make their own alcohol. There's there's few there's something not right making your own alcohol. Add that to the serial killer profile all you. Home brewers out there we have you been on the up and up. Jeffrey dahmer is next on the list or as some people know him the milwaukee cannibal and he really liked to party. Dahmer is the second cycle on this list to enjoy rum and cokes. Like i said rum and cokes. Give me a bad vibe at sorry not sorry. Check check double double-check. Dahmer would start the night. With some bruce keys usually pabst or miller. Then he'd switch over to rum and coke and if you live under fucking rock. Jeffrey dahmer killed seventeen men and boys from the seventies to the nineteen nineties. He would build shrines from his victim's bones he tried to preserve and cannibalize his victims and he really fucked up shit to his victims. So that's dr in a nutshell. Yes i am always surprised that dahmer drink such week ask beer because he was a true pick. You'd think he'd be like a double. Ip kinda guy. Yeah i just. I mean i get it. You can just slam fifteen. Pbr's fast they just go down like water but it's just shocking to me. Yeah yeah You know the thing with dahmer is. He was so fucked up drunk when he was doing his thing. I actually genuinely surprised that. He never accidentally dismembered himself like cut his own hand off on accident because he was so wasted. Yeah yeah yeah yeah he was. He's he's got problems he has. He has problems he's also was killed in prison. Yeah he has some problems and that's our professional opinion. Yes jeffrey dahmer has a problem yes next on. Our list is dr harold shipman dubbed doctor. Death this prick from england in england was convicted of murdering fifteen of his patients. Mostly elderly women. He would inject his unsuspecting patients lethal doses of diamorphine. Which is just basically legal. A heroin Horrifically he was only convicted of fifteen murders. But it was found out that he is responsible for around two hundred and fifty. He's one of the most prolific serial killers ever. I despise despise everybody on this list. They all can they'll fuck and suck but there's just something special evil about a doctor or a nurse these angel of death type killers. It's just very disturbing to me. it really is. And what did the good doctor drink after a long day of writing prescriptions for death classic. Gin and tonic. And he actually preferred gordon's gin Good thing though. He killed himself in prison. In two thousand and four cheerio motherfucker. I can see dr drinking gin and tonic. Yeah it's fancy classic. Yeah it's very dignified. In my opinion. All right ted bundy this piece of shit and a polyester turtleneck. We hate ted bundy podcast him even over glorified not at all genius inbred races space for wreak. I fucking hate him. he's not attractive. No in like he was able to invade evade police just by switching the part in his hair. Okay there's nothing brilliant or genius about that. No he's a piece of shit. He drank mickey's big mouth and on special occasions. He would enjoy dinner with a nice glass of red wine. My hate for ted is really. It's a bottomless pit. And it's just magnified by the fact that he fucking drink mickey's a seriously next on our list is john. Hey the acid bath killer. Louis operated during the nineteen forties in the uk and old. Johnny boy enjoyed a glass of sherry. He also liked wine with dinner white with fish and read with me. of course. don't ever offer him a pint of beer because he was a very classy accountant. Who murdered people and stuff their bodies in drums of acid for her his own financial gain beer though in his opinion was bulger. Ironically get off your fucking high horse you dirtbag murderer seriously. I fucking hate this guy. And he also looked like hitler. So i hate him even more and he was going for i think he was actually and he was hanged to death in london. Next we have. Peter sutcliffe the yorkshire ripper. He liked to beer with a shot of whiskey and he wasn't picky sutcliffe opted for whatever was cheapest the night he was in the bar. I know he's real. Classy a sutcliffe attacked and murdered women between nineteen seventy five and nineteen eighty one of whom were sex workers. He was a real fucking loser for sure and he actually died in november twenty twenty. And it's probably one of the best things to happen in. Twenty twenty agreed. I think And i also though went through. A phase of my drink was a beer and a shot of whiskey. You don't have to align yourself you don't have to say we have this in common. But i wasn't a loser. I had you had standards and you weren't a murderer and a piece of shit. Yeah did that to that too. You have that going for ya es yeah. What's your favorite shot. My favorite shot straight shot. Not not like lemon dropshot tequila same. So that's just where. I'm at in my life tequila day. Yes always and forever. Yes yes own right next up on the list we have anthony hardy. The camden ripper. He killed anywhere from three to nine. Probably more women who were mostly sex workers and this actually a fairly recent. He killed women in the two thousands and yet again. Here's another one of these fox drank rum and coke okay. So we've done the work. This obviously needs to be add to the serial killer profile. We have made the case. We have the evidence it checks out. Yeah if you see somebody drinking rum running rum and coke you just you just need to keep an eye on them. Yeah i mean. I think tiffany haddish forty and slip. She said running coke and you absolutely need to be fucking running in the other direction. Rum and coke more like running coke. Yes so here's the thing. Here's here's what we now mcdonald. Trion bedding animal cruelty obsession with fire likes rum and coke There we go it's science. We've proven it. We justin study. The conclusion is don't trust anybody. That drinks coke half the i hire us now so after a complaint from a neighbor. Police visited hardy at his flat after getting a key from him to a locked door which he said he didn't have the police discovered the naked deceased body of a woman on a bed. Hardy said he didn't know how the woman whose name was sally white got in his flat due to his rum and coke problem. Oh my god. These people are such pieces of shit. I hate when they won't take responsibility. Seriously. i'm seeing a pattern here. Like i said and i don't like it no But the silver lining to this whole scenario according to kapadia this the fuck head died in prison november. Twenty twenty from covid. Oh really yeah yeah so. I don't know how true that is. That was wicca pedia. So i didn't look any farther than that but you know by next on our list is eileen wore knows the one and only woman to grace this glorious list. She was a floridian sex worker and serial killer in nineteen eighty-nine. Eileen was straight up when it came to her drink choice. She drank black coffee all day until she switched over to a few chilly miller's she would allow proclaim it's miller time and then she smashed empty beer can with one of her titties. Jesus christ i just watched a video of somebody doing this and ouch grabbing your boob and smashing a beer can she actually. I probably didn't do that though. She probably fucking did do that but she did. Like cold. miller's an eileen was put to death at florida state prison in two thousand and two by lethal injection. I think that we should do an episode on. Eileen i do too. I feel like i mean. I don't have any sympathy for any of these people. They're all terrible. They're all pieces of shit. A lot of people have traumatic card upbringings and don't end up being serial killer so fuck these people but i lead does have a back story. That is pretty intense in crazy and i would be interested in exploring that more Yeah she is definitely. I think a product of her environment and her upbringing. It's the whole nature versus nurture debate. Yeah i lean her cases pretty pretty interesting Okay and then next honest we have ed kemper who is a giant dot. Smart coming in at six foot nine inches also known as the co ed killer ed killed young co eds and santa cruz california during the sixties and seventies. He also killed his own mother and grandparents killing his abusive mother. He put her head on a shelf. He screamed at it for a few hours through and even had sex with it. God he was so fucked up. Yeah he was. Ed often had sex with his victims after he killed them. I semi recently found out that he actually had a girlfriend for short period of time when she is surprising. Yeah i found that out too. And i I learned that to you. Know they say that ed. Ed said that he did all these things. Who's been very open during interviews prison interviews in police interviews That he did it for his hatred towards women or that he couldn't because he couldn't he didn't know how to communicate with women but he did have a girlfriend. So i call bullshit. Yeah i mean. These guys are all liars and women. Yeah eh. the most ironic thing about ed's case in my opinion is used to hang out. Local cop bar called the jury room where he enjoyed cop. Talk and shots of tequila. Just straight up shots tequila and that's what we have in common. Yes yes This is Are what is what that bandera graph would be. You know like ed kemper. Cassie tiffany and in the middle would just be tequila shots. That's all we have in common. Yes that's the only thing and eventually turned himself into police. He asked for the dense death sentence but in california it was abolished. So he's still in prison to this day and he I think is eligible for parole in two thousand twenty four. Which he won't get he'll be imprisoned till the date. Thank you know. Could you imagine this giant serial killer just being out there again. No nobody should let that animal out of his cage. Just hanging out on the santa cruz boardwalk. No no thank you yeah in. Prison has not been kind to him. He looks even more scary than he did when he You know. I don't think they give out moisturizer in prison. Oh yeah sure. Does he look parched. He it has it. He has an age. Well let's not like a fine wine. He's aged like an old shoe like the old shoe that is his soul. Yes exactly and that brings us to the last garbage heap on our list. And that's dr thomas neill cream. Yes dr cream. Let's just don't ever see anyone. That's named dr cream. I just i don't like it. I don't like i don't like your name. I'm like if i don't like it. There's a doctor named dr cream with a single tear rolling down his week right now. You know you could get a le- legal change to the opposite of cream. Brick the opposite agreement powder i would i would dr powder you would go see dr powder. No neither one doctor brick. Yeah that makes me think. Like rick james. She's a break. How i would. I would be that patient just playing on a loop in his office on yet. Well this is a weird guy. No appointment but i feel comfortable like it. I'm jamming dr cream known as the lambeth poisoner. He would invite sex workers to his house for warm meal guinness and a good time. He murdered six workers in chicago and then moved to london and murdered more sex workers. What that's crazy. Yeah he would lace guess with strychnine. If only he had mixed up the bottles killed himself because he also liked guinness. That was his drink of choice. Yeah that's pretty risky more. Yeah a drinks. Yeah and he Is an old timey douchebag. 'cause he was killing women from eighteen. Eighty one to eighteen ninety two and this was just before he was hanged for his crimes in london. And here's the kind of weird part about it if that's not weird enough for you. Let's get a little bit more weird. Some say that his last words as he was being hung he yelled. I'm jack the and then he died. No way yeah. But it couldn't be proven that's what he said and couldn't be proven he was jack the ripper so it's like an urban legend. Yeah wow what if i know my takeaway from that is guinness has been made for a really long time. Yeah yes might take away with. Don't trust people who drink rum and coke obviously. Yeah i mean clearly. yeah so. That's our list of serial killers and their cocktails of choice or killer cocktails. Yeah you know a we definitely don't glorify serial killers on our podcast. We hate them and talk shit on them but it is interesting when you kind of put these lists together and you see where things overlap and i don't mean the rum coach. Which is you know kind of suspect. But i mean you see like patterns of behavior Having the drinks giving themselves allowances to do this really fucked up shit going back and blaming the drinking for behavior or saying they don't remember things it's just it's just interesting to to see these patterns. I guess crop pop up. Yeah it's i think it just falls into like the classic narcissistic or sociopathic behavior of not taking responsibility for yourself and You know and there's like so many layers to because you get into this like does the alcohol. Inhibit their innovations does the alcohol Are they self medicating for something else in. That leads them down a darker path. It's just it's weird and it's Just like just like romeo. So i mean nothing against rum or coke captain. Morgan please sponsor us but just the combination together. It's just it's it's a suspect so anyways that was our list and that's our one episode. I hope you enjoyed it and thank you so much for listening. Yes thank you so much. We appreciate every single one of our listeners. Yes and if you want to see a picture of the computer mule or the ingredients to it. Just check out her social media. That's instagram and twitter We always post our pictures and episode topics in post any pictures that go along with those on social media and that's where we interact with listeners. Toop so if you want to interact with us. Don't ask me out for a rum and coke i will say hell no love yourself. Lock your doors and lights him. Sage cheers to that cheers at that done it again.

Jeffrey dahmer coke dennis andrew nielsen Dahmer captain morgan black dahmer deysi Ian brady myra hindley ian myra ted bundy bruce keys miller dr harold shipman england dr cream ed kemper ciro bucci Peter sutcliffe
Episode 213: Colleen Stan AKA The Girl In The Box

Morbid: A True Crime Podcast

1:31:50 hr | Last month

Episode 213: Colleen Stan AKA The Girl In The Box

"Cut down on new grocery bill and food. Waste of america's number one meal kit hellofresh over over twenty three recipes each week featuring a broad range of flavors cuisines and ingredients. So you never get bored. Currently i'm obsessed with the sesame beef tacos. It's like a party in my mouth. Go to hellofresh dot com slash morbid news. Ten morbid for ten free meals including free shipping again the telephone dot com slash ten morbid and use co morbid for ten free meals including free shipping. Hey weirdos i'm alina i'm ash and this this right here yeah. This morbid doesn't sound to it Hey it's an ash centric episode. And boy if i would like to knock kalish. This is simply. Don't know if you want this to be labeled with your name on it. We'll boy yet today. We're gonna be talking about calling stan also known as the girl in the box case. This one was chosen by our patriots. It was guys guys. We did present you with two options. It's true both were equally as rough. Yeah i don't really think we have any business. So i don't think we do. I cut my hair me too. I like chopped my hair. I know we're kind of like twins. Now we kind of are. You're just read and important brownish blond. I just thought it was important to tell you it. Is you look super like i. Don't wanna say cute. Because i feel i hate when people appreciate it. Felt like you look. You look very I went Bethany frankel yard when she when she got her bob. Because we've been watching old housewives episodes at night when i research. I just have new york housewives on in the back of me too. In fact i had to start turning it off because i get distracted. I need to the. Add that runs throughout me. I have to put on like gulf. I was like putting on golfer while. 'cause i have to have something in the background. I can't research like a dead quiet room. Yeah i need something but then i even started watching golf. Dot makes sense. That's a good strategy. I think yeah. But then we'll but then i started watching it. It wasn't such a strategy. I wasn't really invested on whatever. Yeah but i yeah other than that other than that groundbreaking news. I don't think there's anything. I really wanted to touch upon today. I don't think so so. let's get into it. Let's do it all right. First and foremost this is going to be very rough on this at through. This involves a lot of sexual assault. This involves Just a lot so just be warned that if you're claustrophobic or anything like that this might not be for you and then it has at least a like really messed up. Version of what they like. Refer to as bedia some but it's like not at all here's the this is not even in the slightest exact The the defense wanted it to be like. They wanted to paint it in that light. But i'm pretty sure anybody involved in the bedia i'm community would hold their middle fingers up and be like. Yeah no. yeah 'cause i just i. Yeah it's not because this person is basically what we'll see is that the person that kidnaps calling likes likes doing bondage jackson women but he doesn't like to do them on consenting women which is in everybody who i've talked to in the media some community consenting a large yard shot. I think that right there shows that there's a very big difference. Yeah i'm only at that out just so it's not like shown in a light. You know what. I mean like i would never wanna whole like a whole communities kink in a way that seems like this. Is it because not saying this. Ain't it so calling stan calling. Stan was born to her parents jack. Evelyn on new year's eve nineteen fifty-six of three daughters who were all raised in riverside california and from a young age colleen was like super creative. She loved to write poetry but she wasn't necessarily a school person like me at school. I i consider myself pretty creative but not a school now. She dropped out when she turned sixteen and she had been dating a man around that time and she knows she believed that they loved each other so they got married and she moved away with him but things only lasted about a year and they ended up divorced and she returned home to california. Okay so when she. When she moved home she met this couple named alice from oregon and they had a two year old daughter who calling absolutely loved and she just really hit it off. Would this like little family. Oh and i think. I mean she had just gotten gone through divorce and everything. It was almost like looking at what she could have had. Yeah so she charged looking to have. Yeah now after a while of friendship they all decided to get a place together. Back in oregon. So that's like the first part of it. Okay on thursday. A may nineteenth nineteen seventy seven. Calling told bob and alice that she was going to head out to california to surprise her friend linda for her birthday now they would drive her some of the way and then she would hitchhike the rest of the way. Oh all right there it is. We've literally talked about hitchhiking cases so many times. So i mean i think we all know to around this time it was a very normal thing and this was something that colleen had done plenty of times course the time. It was the time she felt like she was a good judge of character. She felt like she knew which cars were good to get into. Which ones weren't the whole shebang. So bob and alice drove her as far as they were going to. She was like thanks. I'll be back on. Saturday see then. Oh yep saturday green. When you say. I'll be right fit. No can't say now. Saturday came and went without calling. Turn so alice gave it a few days and she was like. Oh maybe she made our trip longer because her mom lives around there so maybe she like added like a little time to see her mom but then still. She didn't come back so alice called evelyn and she told her you know like hey have you. To call is colleen there you know in evelyn. Her mom was like no. I haven't seen her. How much heard it like. She's supposed to be here. Yeah and there's no cell phones so it's not like you can like text. Her initially like crazy to us. The seventy s case as i'm always like oh my god because what the is supposed to do. Did anyone know where anyone was at any given time. And how did you know how to go. Places fucking gps. I mean we used mapquest printouts and that was hard. I was like not in the seven. Isis start so i mean now. Evelyn and alice are even more worried so they call the police in westwood. california were. Linda lived now the poor because linda didn't have a phone so they couldn't call linda. Oh jeez yeah so the police. Crackdown linda and they learn that colleen had never made it to westwood to surprise. Linda and linda hadn't heard from her in a while either. So not good where the fuck is colleen. Sled happen between home. And they're what happens. Let's go back to thursday. May nineteenth after bob and alice dropped calling off on the freeway colleen took to rides. She was super close to her destination. Westwood i think she was like about one hundred miles away and if she picked the right car she might only need to use her judgment on one more car to finish up the trip and like i said she felt like she was a good judge of character. When it came to hitchhiking and actually on this day she had already turned down to car. Rides really jess like based off of. She didn't get a good vibe. Yeah she just didn't get a good vibe. One was like younger men and she do better than only be the only woman in the car. And i'm not sure about the other one but she was just like now like get the vibes. Weren't there got a vibe check. Yeah now the ride. She did accept to go. The rest of the way seemed like a smart choice. This was a blue to door. Dodge colt pulled up right next door on the side of the highway. Offer her ride. There's a young man driving and in the passenger seat. There's a woman holding a baby so of course. yeah yeah. there's the baby is a baby and a woman so you're safe and these. These adults seemed to be around callings age so she said yep like let's let's do it. Thanks for stopping to get me. That's a tale zola's time that they were a kid. It's so sad or even not even like physically there but like toys toys or a carriage or What's it called a carson. Yeah which will so creepy adds a whole. that's point. oh yeah now. The woman got out to let calling in the car and they were so i i. They made like casual conversation. Are they talked about the area and the driver mentioned that his brother had told him about some cool ice caves nearby so they talked about where colleen was headed off to the. She told them her friend know that she was coming. She was so rising her trip. Oh and wouldn't even think of it no of course you don't even think of it until hindsight well. I'm just going to surprise my friend but you don't even think someone's expecting me right. Always say it right and wall. And i shouldn't say she told them just you know i think she said like surprising my friend. Yeah exactly now. The driver noticed that she was really jumpy like whenever he would talk to her. She jump a little and he noticed Excuse me she noticed herself that when they weren't talking he kept looking at her in the rear view mirror and she was just getting like a weird vibe. Yeah and something about that. Felt off to her and actually they stop to get gas and she went in to use the bathroom and she later said that when she was in the bathroom she was thinking to herself. Something about this doesn't feel right like i. I could out that window and run away. Like i don't need to get back in that car. But she pushed the voice down. Oh she was so close to her trail. These people had a baby in the car. What are they going to do to her. Oh man so she got back in the car and the driver brought up those ice caves again and he asked her. Oh do you. Would you mind taking a little detour. We can go check them out and you know we'll still make good time and she was like i'm not really in any position to take the lead on where we're going so she's the one they need the right but this is another thing. It's like the myra hindley and ian brady. Do you mind if we stop real quick for this detour right but i mean this is even different. 'cause she's like oh cool ice caves. Yeah so they do like. Let's stop here real quick. I just got to do something we should. Smith show you something cool just like aw bajaur have you heard of it. No yes we used it on on bubbalicious bubba we did. Did you find out about bubba when you tested her. Well i found out that bubba is prone to some of the things that we have had to go through this this year so we were like little prepared for it. Which is nice. Because she's a puggle so she's a pug and a beagle mix together so she gets a little bit of each. Yeah uh-huh it's not. It's definitely the best of both on the outside but sometimes on the inside you get a little the funk funk for each one but do you feel like that's nice that you were able to test her because then you feel like your head of paired. We were like ready to know like we were going to have some vet bills coming up. We're ready to make decisions in time when we had to. We weren't like it was nice not to be blindsided by a lot of thing and i feel like your vet was probably like wow ee. What good pet parents yes. She said that exacts that why are we doing and john. Did you know that over. Fifty percent of dogs are either at risk or a carrier of genetic disease and that's whether they're purebred or mixed like it doesn't matter i believe it and the thing is like you just said embark can give you a leg up when it comes to knowing your dogs health history you can learn about your dogs like ancestry back to their great grandparents and match your dog with their relatives. Were you able to do that. I love that. I actually started doing that now. And it's hilarious to do because it's literally like like human genetics. I love it so much and the other thing that i love about embark. Is that every dog that gets tested helps contribute to their research into discovering and treating new genetic diseases in dogs to extend the lives of every dog. I love that because you feel like you're helping all the doggies with your doggy. You really do. They're on a mission to end to end preventable diseases in dogs and these are kids. They're the most accurate and comprehensive breed identification on the market and they're accurate down to a five percent breed component in a mixed breed dogs ancestry and that matters because the mixed breed dogs that embark has analyzed of those ones eighty percent had amrried breed contributions. Small enough that only embark would catch that specific breed big breakdown for dog owners crazy so right now. Embark has an offer on their breed in health kit for our listeners. This new year go to embark that dot com now to get free shipping. And save thirty dollars off. Your first embarked breed and health kit with promo code. Morbid visit embark vet dot com and use promo code morbid to save forty dollars to day so the drivers started heading out toward those caves and the caves were off the beaten path. He said Don't worry about the dirt road nothing to see here. It's all good too. So they're driving on dirt road and colleen's i don't see any caves and then the car stops and the woman gets out with her baby than just like walks up ahead. I think there was like a stream. And she's like like what but she doesn't have any time to ask where they were because out of nowhere. The man driving gets out of the car climbs into the backseat with her. Holds her at knife. Point like whips out a night in whole knife and holds it to her. He tells her shut up. Put your hands in the air and he handcuffs her no then he blindfolds her. He gags her and he takes this wooden box that had been sitting next to her all along that she kinda looked up. Didn't think much about takes it and puts it over her head. What fuck now. This is a twenty pound box. It was patted on the inside so that she could barely hear anything and definitely obviously couldn't see anything she could barely even hold her head up not that he wanted her to anyway because he told her to lay down in the backseat and he covered her up with her own sleeping bag. I already like out already. Like i can't accept over your head in a box. Like was sitting. he's just boxx. That was just sitting next to me this entire time right and like i don't know she's probably thinking it's like a crate or something. You're you're definitely not thinking. He's going to put that over my head after he handcuffs me right in this box like latched closed. This was not just like a box that was like balanced over. Yeah this place for her head. It was padded on the inside. She could barely breathe. Horrifies me and i was trying to think there was like one ghost in that movie the thirteen ghosts which i love that movie. That had a box on its head. It always freaked me out not just made me think of it. I'm very claustrophobic. The entire time that i was researching s i kept being like just like. That's the thing it's like. Oh y'all even now. Mike yeah no. I'm not a fan. No so the man driving was twenty three year. Old cameron hooker on the passenger was his wife janice and the baby she was holding was real. It was their baby that they had just recently had together along for this ride. Now genocide met cameron when she was fifteen years old. She was a freshman in high school and he was nineteen and he was working at a nearby mill. he was a millworker. Their relationship started off basically as most grooming relationships. Do cameron jacksonville special. He doted on her. He took her on dates and he'd give her a little gifts from time to time. He seemed like the perfect guy and she wasn't abused physically at home but she was definitely like emotionally neglected. She was the youngest of four kids and her parents. Just like didn't pay any attention to her. It seemed like her dad actually kept his distance from her and she felt it was because that She suffered from epilepsy when she was younger. Oh and she thought that. He thought that she was possessed by demons. Wow and that's why he stayed away from. Okay yeah real fucked up the uche now. Her mom left most of the responsibility of taking care of janus to jaas older sister lisa and she really only interacted with janice to tell her if she was disappointed in her because she was stupid or when she did something wrong so she had no relationship with her. Mom why did i never got. I don't get it either now. Obviously it seems like she was really set up to look for validation outside of her family and is pretty typical that she found it in an older male giving her attention of course now so. She ignored a lot of the things that she didn't like about cameron and tried to focus on the good stuff and she did things that she usually wouldn't have because she was afraid to lose. This person that she thought was the only one out there who loved her cared about her and actually genesis. Parents really loved cameron so they let her marry him when she was sixteen and january nineteenth of course safety because they were like now. You're out of our hair right exactly. And actually she remembered being kazaam her older sister. Lisa had wanted to get married or something like that when she was sixteen but she had to wait until she was eighteen. So janice was like interesting. That i was sixty. Your scooting me out the door. She was older man. Who wow that. That's exactly how she felt. And it's interesting that she dropped out and got married at sixteen. Just like colleen had yeah. They had looks at it. I know because i was like this does sound familiar. Yeah now. Let's talk about cameron hooker. He was born november. Fifth nineteen fifty three in california to parents. Harold and lorena herald worked in construction and the family moved around a ton so cameron and his younger brother. Dexter they never really had the chance to make lasting connections with other friends or honestly really make friends but other than moving around a lot. There's really no evidence of any other kind of chaos in the hooker household. There's no reports of abuse or anything like that and everyone who knew. The parents said that they were just hard workers who seemed to love their children. So definitely doesn't come off as like a full-on like oh. This is what happened. This is why no it's actually. It's funny because we just finished. The willie picton case and i remember when we were doing that. So that's why he's like this. It was like pretty easy to point. Out like yeah. There's a lot of disarray here right lot of neglect and abuse right. Yeah and then. I was thinking about this case. And i'm like there's really not anything. The same thing. What happened to cameron. Moving around a lot can be tough when you're younger but i'm sure many of kids move around. Don't do this exactly so. Finally the family settled down near red bluff california. When cameron was sixteen so now he had the chance to make friends or like. Join the community in some way like join a you know basketball team. Whatever have you. But he didn't wanna do that and he wasn't. It didn't seem like he was bullied but he really didn't have a lot of friends and he was kind of like on the outskirts like he wasn't he wasn't super cool or anything but he seemed like somebody who just wanted to be by himself And i mean at that point had been working for him for sixteen years so like why. Change that now. If it's not broke don't fix. He knows that he can just chilled himself. So you know why change that. But what did change was cameron. Like most sixteen year old boys was thinking about sex and women and figuring out what he liked. And you know the whole shebang. I'm going to say that. Like a times the hush bang but it was then he really took an interest in bondage. Which like i said in the beginning. Obviously that's totally fine. As long as both parties involved are willing participants. Yeah absolutely consent is very necessary. Vital can send is key. Yes but that was the part. That cameron didn't really like them much. Yeah that's when it's a problem. Yeah so when he met janice like i said she was fifteen and he was nineteen and now he had someone to experiment with but when he brought up some of the ideas that he had to janice about like giving bondage attract she. She just wasn't into it she didn't want to do it. Yeah but he soothed her by telling her like. It's nothing to be afraid of any pressured. Her and was like. I've done this with my other girlfriends. They all let me do it. And they were fine of course. So she's like you know if it he's like if you're not interested i don't know if it's gonna work out between us so obviously not wanting to lose the one person she had. She's like all right. I'll give it a try. Yeah you don't wanna be the only girlfriend who didn't do especially at fifteen zero at actionable. That's easy that peer pressure quote unquote. Perfect exactly what happens. Yeah so cameron would take her into the woods and hang her from trees by her wrists and he would use handcuffs that he made himself. He would take photos of her naked. The position is fifteen. Put her aunt's he would not okay on every level. No not at all. He would with her until asian he would like make welts on her body and i read this wicked good book. I use like a ton of other sources to that. I'll put in the show notes. But the one i really wanna talk about the most. Is this book the perfect victim. It was actually written by christine mcguire. Who was the prosecutor on this case like local and it was co written by her and carlin now According to that book perfect victim there was one occasion where cameron wanted to tie janice up and dunk her in a nearby creek. What yeah he. He really liked to involve water and a lot of things that an nightmare. Now by this point she had endured everything else. she didn't want to upset him so she said scher now when they did it the first time she almost drowned. Like i don't know exactly what happened. But she was like okay. I don't want to do that again. And now the authors point out that janice didn't ever enjoy the bondage aspect of her relationship with cameron but what she did look forward to and kind of like. It was the way that she got through. Everything was that when they were done and he would untie her or take her handcuffs off her wrists and he'd hold her and kind of dote upon her. Yeah like basically pat on the back and say good job. Yeah you know. He became like this totally different person and he was like the camera in that she met and that makes sense because it's like her parents the only time they would communicate with certain with our was to tell her like you fucked up or you're you're dumb or you're this or that right so to have this guy even if it's that little part where he will tell you that you're great and you did awesome and like thank you for doing that lets you been looking for. It's all. She needs stain her right. He'll take the abuse or the whatever else is happening That's just really sad. It is sad. And i mean the book is called perfect victim because like they were pointing out colleen was like the perfect victim for him but honestly genus was also yeah victim when she was a child. I mean that's a fifteen year old right so like i said they got married and once they were married they continued this kind of sex life together but janice was really getting tired of it and what she really wanted to do was be a mom. She wanted to have a baby and she knew that. Obviously this wouldn't be able to continue to going to go out while she's pregnant so you know that seemed like a win win for her. She could make this not happen and also have a baby but cameron was like no. I'm not happy then. At this point he needs this. He's like addicted to it. Basically this kind of sex. Yeah and so. He didn't read very well like us like he wasn't a very good reader but he had every porno magazine that you could imagine and he liked the darker ones that talked about female slavery and showed like a lot of very bleak dark pictures so he didn't really need to read he could just check out the pictures and kind of gather what he needed and he wanted to try some of this new stuff with janice but she would cry or like beg him not to and he was getting tired of doing everything with her so he wanted he he wanted to do it with somebody that like a somebody who would who would not give him grief right exact and jeffrey dahmer. Ask and i think sex ownby. He's the kind of person that is never going to be happy with just one woman doing this. He wants to do this. Two different women through. Yes that makes sense life now at this point. He's getting mad and violent with her. He threatened to kill her and actually told her exactly how he would do it and he was just keeping her beneath him or too afraid to leave him or to confide in anybody about her situation not that she really had anybody to tell anyway. Yeah so she's like really in a bad position and he's devouring these underground magazines more and more often. And like i said he's talking about enslaving non willing female and he starts bringing that idea up to janice. So shockingly enough. They come to a deal if she could have a baby she would allow him to keep a quote sex slave but the deal was so they could do that and she would have a baby but she said. I don't want shooting gauge in penetrative. How do you say that you're unattractive. Yeah sex with the woman like you can do whatever you want but don't have the quote unquote sex. Wow yeah this is sad and fucked up in every way that it could be it really is like the fact that she's like just please let me have a baby and then you can do this and she's also just being like in here the rules for this like i love you. Like don't don't shine on me per se levels of just sadness and darkness in bleakness here. That's like wolf. And it's it's hard like Dissecting this case because you want to be mad at janice but then you said you keep going back to it. And you're like she was fifteen. She was fifteen teams rain washed. That's really insane. Yeah did you know that. People who work with financial advisers end up with fifteen percent more money to spend in retirement. I didn't well no matter what stage of life year and thinking about your financial future doesn't have to keep you up at night. Thanks to smart asset dot com. The service that over half a million people have trusted to help them find a financial advisor. There's a free and easy path to financial peace of mind. Smart asset dot com has built a safe and convenient tool to find vetted financial advisors in your area. I honestly think everybody could benefit from a financial advisor including myself. Because i'm not a girl that's like at the checkout and i wanna get all the things on like the end cap so yeah in their designed specifically that impulse buyers yeah we all do it in my financial adviser could tell me girl. Stop stop doing that. Well here's how it work. So here's how it work surfer to say work. Whatever tar works like this begin by taking smart asset short quiz at smart asset dot com slash morbid minutes. Smart asset will match you with three prescreened fiduciaries each legally obligated to act in your best interest. They'll also send you a free person. Is retirement planning guide with actionable advice. So you can feel confident in your next steps taken control of your financial future today with smart asset to receive your free personalized retirement planning report. Go to smart asset dot com slash morbid. Your report will provide personalized insights on your retirement readiness so visit smart asset dot com slash morbid tip day so now it was up to cameron to figure out a way to make this fantasy of reality so he apparently considered putting a listing in one of these magazines. You could do that like yeah but there were too many problems with that situation. The marquis thought about it and his main goal. I can't emphasize this point enough. Because it's the differentiating factor between cameron and the bedia. Some community was that this woman be unwilling. So that's the thing when you're putting an ad in a magazine you're getting a woman that's like the perfect victim points out. She probably would wanna be paid. Obviously yeah or and it's like there. There's absolutely people who will like engaged in like rape with someone you know what i mean. Like if that's what he was looking for it's like it may not be everybody's thing but some people saying yeah and it's like but here. It's very clear that that's not enough for him. Not looking for someone to participate in a fantasy. He's leaves stomach. It participate in rape exactly what he's looking for your needs to make his reality. He wants to be a predator. Yeah absolutely so a kidnapping seemed more fit for his fantasy than a magazine listing so he started hunting so he would drive around looking for a victim a lot of times bringing janice with him for obvious reasons. Because a woman's going to get into your car if she sees one it's it's a little bit of comfort and at this point she's pregnant circuiting into a pregnant woman scarlet. You're not thinking anything's gonna happen. Possibly do and then soon enough. She gave birth to the baby so the baby would come with this horrible hunting trip so he would take pictures of women and at home. He was preparing that head box for one. He found the right woman now. The basement of his in genesis rented home would be where he kept his captive and he was working on more than just the head box. The basement had a rack that he built himself and when i say rack. I'm not saying like oh drying rack like no no was a wreck. The medieval torture rack like he made one himself. And i know that like nbd some. There's like rock type thing. But i imagine who was not something that anyone would enjoy. No definite definitely not There were also hooks that he installed to the ceiling so that women could be hung down there. P basically just started making like a dungeon a sex dungeon now flash forward again to may nineteenth nineteen seventy seven calling now been kidnapped and his lying in the back of the blue dodge colt with cameron driving in janus holding the baby in the passenger seat. God willing obviously couldn't hear or see much the head the the head box fixture her head and she could also barely breathe but she go hell that the car stopped driving in. Someone took the box off of her head and she smells food and she still couldn't see but she knew that the people who had just fucking kidnapped her were now sitting in the car with their baby eating cheeseburgers. Oh just like eating fast food okay. Yeah like they're just finishing up a day of errands or like a day of fun and yeah you're hungry grab grab. It gotta stop and grabs company. Like what no what this this case. It's nuts and obviously the other reason why they're eating i think is because they were waiting for the sun to go down so they can get her in the house without kind. Kinda get hairy. You know this woman in a sleeping bag with a box on her head. No into your house without neighbors being like what's happening there joe. Hey what are you doing. What's up cameron so often in here. They let her sit up for a little bit. They up cheeseburgers. And then when they're done the head box was put back on in on calling and the next time the car stopped. They were out the couple's house who now forty street is where calling would spend the first part of her captivity. This is where it's going to start to get dark just so everybody knows. I'm not going into full detail about everything. I'm going to kind of overview things and if you would like him more indepth into description you should definitely read the perfect victim. Yeah i just. There's some things. I can't even say out loud. You know there's a lot like personally for sure. So when they pulled up to the home it was dark and there weren't neighbors really close enough to tell like any anything like this was going on like if it was daylight they would see but the neighbors were far enough that at night they wouldn't see. Yeah so again. The head boxes taken off and calling his lead into the house. Cameron takes down to the basement while janice Settled the baby upstairs. Which yeah you got to put the baby to bed. What yeah so trigger warning we're going to get into the dark stuff immediately. Calling was hung to the ceiling. She was still blindfolded and now cameron stripped off all her clothing and immediately began whipping her. He beats her and he sexually assaulted her. And she blacks our girl. Oh my god it's horrific and that's that is a brief overview. That's your entrance into the house. And it's only going to get more bleak because she blacks out from the pain and when she wakes up. And i cannot express to you. How fucking foul this is. She wakes up to the couple having sex underneath her while she still hanging from the ceiling. I didn't see that coming. yeah. I don't think you're gonna see a lot of this coming. I really didn't see that coming. No so she wakes up and they're literally having sex beneath her feet. Foul is a perfect way to describe. there's no other words really nailed catching to describe. That's that's a lot. Yeah so when they were done Janice hurry back. Upstairs and cameron took calling off the ceiling and now he placed into another box. This box was apparently three feet high. Her arms were chained to the top of that box and the separate had box was placed on top and closed around her head now this time. She tried to kick because she's like. I am trying to do anything anybody would do that. I think that's like your first human instinct. Absolutely he comes back and ties her feet the box till she can't kick so now her arms and her feet are shackled in the box on top of her head and she is in another box yes. It's hard like deep breaths. Because i'm like whoa whole why don't you go ahead. And take phobia here is just next level. You should take another deep breath for this next so yes like you said. Her head is in one box. Her body is in like it seems like half of another box. It was a little hard to decipher and then he comes back and ties her feet. And she's like i can't breathe in here like please like go like i can't breathe. He doesn't say this entire thing entire time. He hasn't said a word to her. Oh so his response was that he came back and tied something around her chest and rib area to make it even harder to. Oh and then just left. Oh excuse me then he. This is horrible. Police something between her legs and went upstairs now. The device that he put between her legs was actually meant to shock her throughout the night. Like little shocks throughout her body. Luckily i hesitate to say. Luckily but it wasn't working so that nothing happened. That was the intention. But that was the intention own god absolutely oh and then throughout the first night he would come down in place his hand on her back which and she had been put into the box face i saw from the neck down her back was exposed so all throughout the night he would just go and put a hand on her back and the perfect victim. That book was like saying she didn't know if it was to scare her or to check and see if she was still alive. Who's probably a little bit of both. I would imagine. That's literally exactly what i was just gonna. So that's her first night ho absolutely horrible. And like i said that's a brief overview of her first night in that stuff that like if you saw that in a horror movie you like all right like that too much like you've gone too far that's just like you know i. Yeah a who fathoms cameron hooker. And we're going to get worse so the next day without saying a word again cameron came down and moved colleen from the boxes and he fastened her to the rack now for the next week or so she would be she would be between the rock and the box and sometimes cameron would also be in the basement with her not talking to her just building something so he's just building over in the corner and she's just hanging on something literally like she's just like being held like against her will in the basement while he's just building around her and she's sitting there wondering i mean now she's probably putting two and two together like did he build these boxes that he's putting me out so what the fuck is he building. Now what is he going to do now now what he was building was the box that colleen would-be living in for the next seven years of her life. This is the thing that just my mind can't wrap around it seven years these kind of things. It's like the same as the cleveland kidnappings with like eleven years. It's like when you look at a picture of like the sun young. How many earth's can fit inside the sun and you're like no my brain literally. That does not compute. Can't wrap around it just shuts off. Yeah that's how these kind of things work with me. It's like seven years. I can't even fathom doesn't happen 'cause brain dice not compute even right now. I too overwhelmed to think about what i was doing. Seven years. i literally was just thinking. I was like seven years ago. I can't even like. I don't even know how old i was because i can't do the quality but like i was a totally different person back then and there was just a lot that happened between now and seven years ago. Your kids weren't even born right right. Got three of those suckers so think about what could have happened to colleen in seven years of her life goodness now so the box was double walled. So there's like it's like a box on the outside and then there's another like box essentially on the inside so obviously nobody can hear her. It was six feet long and three feet high. So not big at all. Also literally a casket but like ooh smaller And he lined it with the sleeping bag that calling had brought for her trip to linda's yup Cameron chained colleen into the box and capture blindfolded and naked. So she's putting her into this box blindfolded naked chained to the box and before placing the cover on the top. He does one last horrifying fucking thing that will send your spine to just like exit. Your body. I don't know why this like hit me so hard. He put earplugs in her ears and then covered the box. These sensory deprivation. Yes is so deep. That's like more torture. It literally is. It's i don't wanna say worse but it's like it's like that almost like did like whoa. Yeah whoa yeah It's so much so for the first number of years. She was kept in the box in the basement on the rack or hung from the ceiling. And just completely brutalized. She was let out to eat. And when cameron felt like abusing her. And it's like meanwhile this entire time they've got a seven year old now. They've got a kid. Living in this house is growing up. Oh yeah we'll we'll get into that too. Because i call spent seven years in the box but there were times where she was out of the box. And we'll get into. She ends up building a relationship with these children. Wow yeah so. Like i said she was. Let out to eat. When cameron felt like letting her and when he wanted to abuse her. And a few months in Cameron made her start helping him build a workroom underneath the stairs. So literally like harry potter. Wow and he made her do this blindfolded so she's working blindfolded because she can't see his face i bill. Yeah i'm not helpful to you. She figured it out 'cause if she didn't do things right obviously there is quote unquote punishment. And it's like she already saw his face when she got in the car. I think about like the horrifying like yeah. But it's like it's just so stupid it doesn't make a lot of sense now so she was kept in the work reminiscent of the time once they were finished building it and finally he gave her a nightgown to wear But she had to stay blindfolded when he came down to give her orders i. He made her do like a lot of weird shit in the workroom. Like the first thing he made her do take. He gave her like a ton of walnuts and made her like. Take the shells off of them. Fuck i don't know if it was just like what he is. I was some weird lake. Thought of that day. Yeah that's really weird. I think it hurts. I would think after a while. Yeah it's some kind of torture. But then he would have her makeup. I think it is it. Maccarone how you say yeah Macaroni and crochet things. And then she was like pretty good at it so him and janice would go sell that shit at local market so that they could make money that they're like prisoner was making for them literally. Okay literally space. We all probably have something that we should see a doctor about but have been putting that off. Your health is too important to ignore. if making a doctor's appointment feels like a chore that rhymes plush care is here for you. They make it super easy to schedule. An appointment mc doctor. So i can prioritize my health hassle-free plus care provides a virtual doctor appointment through your smartphone or computer. Literally you pick a time that works for you book an appointment right online like you don't have to sit in uncomfortable waiting room. You don't have to sit on hold. You don't have to leave the house like does anything sound better than that. No with plush care. 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Go to plush care dot com slash morbid to start your free thirty day. Trial that's p. l. u. s. h. a. r. e. dot com slash morbid for a free thirty day trial plush dot com slash. So she's like a full blown sleep at this point because she's just making things for them and like she's a full-blown like wow so there's people in the world right now that have crochet. May that this one colleen staking under the stairs as she was like shackled. Will think twice before you buy something maccarone. Not totally cutting so when she wasn't in the workroom. She was in one of the other contraptions Trigger warning she was. He burned her t electrocuted her. He stretched her on the rock. Like beyond the like she's had Shoulder problems and back problems for the rest of her life her and that's just like to say the least. This is like toy box killer should it is it is very right so it's very reminiscent of toy box keller and it's very reminiscent of like you said the cleveland like a mishmash of them. Yeah so on. January twenty fifth nineteen seventy eight. Were eight months into her captivity and camry comes down with janice to the basement now. He told colleen to take off her blindfold which immediately. She's probably like why. I'd be like i'm gonna die if i'm going to see your face like that means you're killing me or who knows year either killing me or you are never planning on letting me leave like this right the end right. Yeah and that's exactly what was going on. So she takes off her blindfold and he hands her a contract. The contract stated that she would now be known as the letter k. And that she was his property she was To referred to him as sir or master and she was supposed to do anything he wanted her to. There's a ton of crude things in their cruel things that i'm not going to go into all of it but i'll name a few things She was never to cross her legs in front of him. She was not allowed to wear underwear. she also had to wear a collar for identification purposes. And we'll get into that in a second And those are the three that i'm gonna mostly focus on. This reminds me of like fifty shades of grey. Yeah yeah yeah. But like non willing but with like a non willing participant right now. The contract actually came from an underground newspaper like it was something that was a apparently going on in that world and cameron realized this is brilliant so he tried different ways of duplicating it and finally he settled on having genus type it up on her typewriter and then he went by the alias might go powers and she janice was to sign the contract as a witness. Okay okay no. He made the header of the contract using calligraphy stencils that he had bought solely for this project. He's extras fuck us really. He's also unfortunately very handy and yeah. He builds everything that he is. Put colleen and he's built. That sucks that. He uses that for that because he could like damn be a lot better so to get colleen to believe. This whole thing is real. I mean she's probably so terrified that he didn't even have to but he needs to wrap her mind terror so he tells her about the company and according to cameron the company was an underground organization that traded around enslaved females and made them lifelong sex slaves He told colleen that he had been raised in the company actually and that his father and brother were fellow members. If she tried to escape the company would find her if she tried to tell her family. The company would kill the family that she told and recapture an honestly. I get why this would be easy to convince someone of because it's like especially five. This game is is a thing like this is if i heard that now in that situation i'd like yeah under percent true will and i think he Showed her an article from one of the magazines. she's like. Oh my god like this is believe that yeah yeah and to even further. Solidify her belief. He told her that janice had actually tried to escape. At this point she didn't know janice by janice used a different name and he said that when she was running away she flagged down a police officer and the police officer she thought was going to drive her home but the police officer was actually part of the company so he picked her up and return to her and he and the other members nailed her to a cross like structure through her knees and hands and tortured her obviously in that he had been the one to save her and she underwent a ton of surgeries to fix her hands but her knees were still messed up. And while he's telling her this genesis standing next to him wearing a knee brace because in all reality janice actually had a knee condition. What's congenital genitalia. I think her dad like dad passed down some kind of should with her knee. So that's why the real reason she was wearing a brace but colleen didn't know that so it just seemed like further proof that there was no way out of this my goodness so what was she supposed to do. This is grotesque. She signs the contract and immediately he puts a homemade collar on her and gives her an identification card that he had made but sealed with like the company. Steel to look effective. Wow yeah again. I say he's extra and then he just leaves her in the workroom. Who yeah okay. So signing the contract did allow for some quote unquote freedom She was allowed upstairs to cook for the family. She see how she could work in the gardens. She had to clean the children's homes and just the home in general and of course to oblige to any sexual activity. That cameron wanted one. He wanted and he would actually do like with her where he would like. Say a certain word and she had to strip naked and be in whatever position that he wanted her to be in right away within seconds. Wow and if she didn't do it fast enough he would abuse her for like hours. Okay now during this period she was mostly allowed to sleep in the work room. Which is a better place to sleep than the box. But no place to sleep at all now for a few day. She was kept in the workroom without anyone. Coming down to give her 'cause usually they would give her leftovers from dinner and a glass of water and sometimes if she liked didn't eat all of it he would force her to eat it but she didn't get her meals for a couple of days and she's hearing a lot of commotion upstairs. She's like what the fuck is going on now. Cameron came down suddenly one night. Put her in the head box and let her outside like super fast and she was to lay down genesis lap while they drove so she had no idea where they're going and she probably thinks this is it. Oh so finally. They end up at a mobile home and like a pretty secluded neighborhood and cameron told colleen that this was their new place so they moved to a more secluded neighborhood because there was less neighbors and the house that they were living in before was rented so like landlords could drop by at any moment. My gosh so he was like this isn't conducive to me having no ape. So i should not move. Yeah so they moved so he turned side to what he told her. Was he in genesis bedroom and he points out this huge bed in the room that he built himself. He's like this is our bed. She looked underneath it so there was a small entryway bottom of the bed that could be covered but for now was opened. So cameron could show colleen. This was where the box he kept her in would be police now and she how she got into the box was she'd have to crawl through the entryway into the box. Oh i yeah so there were times that colleen was kept in the box for months at a time only being allowed out to eat or empty. She would have to use a bedpan in the box so she would be let out to eat and empty that and obviously for cameron But in one thousand nine hundred eighty one. There was actually a long stretch of time where she didn't stay in the box in this but there's an throughout the trial. There's like a doctor that gets brought in. He's like a psychologist and he says there are certain things that captors will do and they will give you freedom like unexplained and you think that you've done something good but it's just so they can take it away without explanation. You never know what's going to happen. They're just so they. Yeah that makes sense because it's like if they're if they're giving you consistency in writing than you're expecting and you become comfortable with your even if it's a fucked up routine a routine right can expect what's happened in. Your mind starts to cope somehow. Yeah your mind starts just kind of ground on earth for a minute. But then if they're constantly just ripping you out of that routine you never dad and then doing a whole different thing. That's keeping you in a constant state of like alarm terror. Panic terror nyc. Wow that's wow razi. Wow so in one thousand nine hundred one like i said she got more quote unquote freedoms. She was allowed to work in the garden and she was actually even allowed to go jogging. Now this started. Because i'm not i don't know if she asked if she could go for a run or like he wanted her to run but he drove her out to this like very secluded area and told her to run and then if she stopped he said that he was gonna hit her with the car or something. So then she. She grew to like enjoy jogging later eventually so she was allowed to go jogging without him at some points dow but that's how hard he had like he put the company. He shoved down her throat so she knew like she didn't and we'll like i'm going to get into it. In this little portion so on one occasion she was actually even allowed to go to a bar with janice where they some guys and went back to these guys house. Because at this point janice jackson cameras relationship is like somewhat open because she can he has his person i was gonna say yeah but like we were just saying calling never tried to escape because there was always the reminder that the company was watching she was told that the phones were taps tapped. Excuse me that there was constant surveillance on the house and even that there were some company members who lived in their new neighborhood. Wow yeah so. She grew really close to the children. Who because now there's two kids. And they know her as k so like she basically got an entirely new identity and they just like knew that this woman like sometimes pops up in their house. yeah. She was basically like their babysitter. She would babysit them at night. While janice was working. Because janna scott a night job. She was like waitressing And because cameron didn't feel like watching the kids he would have k- do it because case right there he's shoe lets his slave. Yeah you're here. For what i need you for. Yeah so she also didn't during this period to sleep in the box anymore they would quote unquote. Let her sleep in the back bathroom but she would be chained to the toilet. Yeah and actually There was one occasion where one of the little girls walked in to the bathroom and like saw her there and obviously cameron didn't like didn't get mad at the kid he got mad at colleen and like flipped out on her obviously beat her because that's obviously her fault but she would have to lock the door from the inside of the bathroom like from that. Point forward wow so. She would lock herself in the bathroom because she so she so brainwashed rain aided into this and eventually like the later on during the trial the defense tried to use that as like well she. She didn't leave right. It's like a yeah would you. 'cause that's that's just her being like this is great. I'm just gonna stay. Yeah for sure. i love clearly. She is broken. Yeah now this will blow your mother. Fm in mind. No eventually colleen convinced cameron to let her call her family. He let her call her family. Oh because one because he knows that she's not going to say anything else. She thinks he's gonna kill her so she did call the family and he told her if she wanted to go see them that he could arrange it but it would take some time because he'd have to convince the company that she wasn't going to tell her family. Oh my god. She wouldn't try to escape and he said you know they might even wanna test you. Oh my god. So the dave calm. I hate that this guy thought of everything. It's the things that he thought of like. We're gonna talk about one right now. I'm just like your mind is. The daughter is equally in the whole entire universe. What a waste of a mind rally that could have gone and took out a billion other places if it was not evil. This guy that like can barely read thinking of these things because even like little things like thinking they might wanna test you. Yeah or even just giving her another layer of like. Don't try anything. 'cause they might even be testing right or even give her like the card like yeah just further. It's just it's not so the day comes to go visit her family. He arranges and key. It happened in march of nineteen eighty one but they had to stop at the company headquarters. I stop yes. So cameron drove out to sacramento. He had told her all along the company headquarters in sacramento and. He stopped in front of some buildings. That look be like office buildings. So he's like. I have to go in first and see what they need. And then i'll come get you so when he came back he stayed in there for a while and she's probably sitting in the car like what the fuck is about to happen to me. Are they watching. I just want to see my family so when he came back. He said they actually don't need to see you. You got off pretty easy. But then he said to her The secretary says good luck like what so then like they drive out to your family and she just shows up unannounced and her family was like what the fuck like. We're by but they don't say like really where if you been. I mean they do but like they don't press it too much because they're just happy that she's alive. Yeah so she told them very little. She said that she and michael aka cameron were engaged in that he was taking a computer course out this way so she decided that's when there would be the perfect time to visit. Oh good because i was going to say i understand like just being excited. That she's there but like tell me that she gave them a story. Like i 'cause i would need to know something. Yeah absolutely now. But like i said. They didn't want to ask too many questions. Because this is the first time they've seen her in years and they don't want to ruin it but they later said that. They suspected that she was in a cult. Like they thought that's been gone. I can understand that yeah So by this point her parents actually been divorced and remarried and colleen even younger half siblings that she didn't know about man so she like got to enjoy some time with them. I don't wanna enjoy but Cameron actually let her go to church with her mother and her sister but then he suddenly called her and said it was time to go now when he told her that they were gonna go out and see her family she he made. It seem like it was gonna be for a weekend so she was like really upset when it was only a twenty four hour visit. But it's like what the once she going to do about. She has no power here right and she wanted to tell them what was happening but remember he told her the company would not only like beat the shit out of her like she couldn't even fathom what they were going to her but whoever she told would be killed yeah killer whole family. So what is like. I said what she's supposed to do and he made it like. We stopped at the company headquarters. They know where we are. How long we're going to be here so she does try to tell them it's like they're watching right. That's what yeah right under his watchful eye so she says her goodbyes and she later on remembered like really wanting to tell her mom like right. Then god that hurts my soul but couldn't so she heads back to the trailer with cameron. Now when they got back cameron told her she'd be going back into the box. Now remember she just had a year of freedom. She's she's thinking like this box shit is over with no so he raped her back in the box. Wow and she was actually let out to say goodbye to the kids in some of the neighbors because at this point she had been like out jogging and the neighbors knew her as k the babysitter. Oh my god yeah and she had become a really friendly with them. There's a couple. I think they name was the cobras and the copa kind of thought. Something was going on but they didn't really know what to do out. How would you ever right. And but they were later brought to trial to testify. Wow yeah so you know. She wanted to tell all of them what what was going on. But she couldn't so. She told them all that she was moving away and he told her if she let anything out that was happening. The company would retaliate and shit would go down. I can't so this was the longest time period of time that she spent in the box and she said about this. I learned. I could go anywhere in my mind. You could just remove yourself from the real situation going on and you go somewhere else. You go somewhere pleasant around people you love. Whatever makes you happy. Yeah so this is nine hundred one that she gets put back in the box. Nine thousand nine hundred eighty four rolls around. Oh my gosh. So for a three year period. She was literally let out to eat and for one he wanted. She's just under a bed in a box. And that's the other thing she's under their bed. Everyone yeah this couple is sleeping on top of her. What my mind can't even go there. Why can't even go there. No like this is so grotesque. That i can't my brain does not even know so. There's a real situation three years later. She's out nineteen eighty four and janice takes her on the entire neighborhood. Like case back. And how ks back in the kid's life and their super happy and callings relieved but obviously very confused about why she was let out after three years. Well just to keep fucking with her but there was also another reason. Good cameron wanted to build an underground dungeon and he needed help. Oh okay yeah so. I thought it was something crazy. Yeah yeah there you go just a dungeon. Just an undergrad has to help so they would go out at night and to. He had like the small shed and they would dig together until the space they dug out was big enough for a room. Now cameron talk colleen how to lay bricks and when they were finished. This was colleen's new place There was a chair for her to sleep. There was room for karen. Karen cameron to carry out his abuse on her. The wall the ceiling was strong enough to like hold the chains and everything. He's a really good builder. I i was gonna say. Jesus i can. I like wrap this up in like a neat little bundle but it took a while. They laid cement. They did the bricks bricks to dry. I mean you can't just dig a hole in like sticks and bricks in there and be like that's a room now Not like a lot but that goes into that. Finally they finished and that's what it was now. The dungeon seemed like a way better way to store colleen and cameron toll turn that eventually. There will be more girls down here with her and actually they built them like they called them windows but obviously look out anything but the reason that they built the windows was because of he said he would expand. Oh yeah that's nice. And the reason he wants to expand is because some day. There's going to be four other girls down here and you're gonna be the one to train them. He told her. Oh yeah and he also told her that someday he intended to marry her no and like she was supposed to have his children and that eventually he would get her her own trailer where she could live so nice so nice of you. What so man calling fuck. It's crazy so obviously she. She didn't love the dungeon that was like such stutter But it was more spacious than what she had been used to and she wasn't sweltering all summer long which had been in the box because yeah she's in a box underneath a bed. During the summer months for those three years she was either completely freezing underneath there or super super hot and he They describe it in the book. He made like ventilation hole and put a hairdryer. They're on like the cool setting for like quote ventilation but really all it did was like the noise drove her crazy. It didn't cool anything. It's not the cool setting of a hairdryer snow like an air conditioning outlets to seal your hair follicle but life. So she's it's better so when it gets colder he puts a heater down there and janice and cameron at one point gifted calling the bible that she had asked for so she was able to read that down there but when the fall and winter came the basement started to flood. Oh yeah so. That was one problem and cameron colleen how to vacuum the water up. Oh okay so. I keep saying oh but oh and i. I don't even know what else now. So he's we just have to vacuum the water up like we'll figure out a way around this but then they ran into an even bigger problem one day the two daughters. Because there's fucking children that live here and their cousin were playing hide and seek outside and there was like a house rule that you were never to go in any of the sheds but their cousin was like oh. It's fine if we go their kids. So they end up in the shed end. Janice comes out and sees the two of them looking. 'cause how you got into the dungeon was that there was like a whole and you had to like climbing through that hole and that was like the entrance and the exit so janice walks out and sees these little girls peering down the whole. Oh just being like why. What's up with that. What's in there. So i guess the it wasn't clear whether they saw colleen or not but yet that was obviously definitely saw the room problem so now janice and cameron are worried that their niece is gonna tell her parents but nothing came of it. Nothing came of it. And i mean the dungeon was no longer where they kept calling at this point and she was put in the box again. So that's a man but this time she was only put in the box for a couple of weeks while they make sure no one came looking so when no one did come looking. They let her out of the box and now they told her she would need to get a job to payoffs like some fine that the company had charged cameron. When he was like. I am already working and can't afford to pay it so you have to get a job now. What's yeah so colleen got a job at king's lodge at She was hired by the owner. Doris myron i believe is how you say it and eventually they became like super close with each other. Doris obviously new calling us k just like everyone else at that time And she definitely felt like ks. Living situation was weird. 'cause ks had no idea no she had no idea because at this point k sleeping on my sorry colleen is sleeping in the living room and she says that to doris and she's like oh yeah like genesis like a sister but like i also give her and cameron my paychecks and like sources like why. So she's like yeah. This is strange arrangement. But she's like. I don't know what i can do about it. Other than like have have myself someone that she feels she can talk to and she needs how. You're so colleen like i said. Still believing in the company never tells her boss too much personal information and now at this time jackson colleen had like a very strange relationship obviously in the whenever she was let out in the beginning her in calling would fight a lot because janice was like jealous of colleen. I was waiting for that to be a thing that was like a whole thing. And that was this was going to be like peace and harmony amongst them. No and that was a major reason. Why in nineteen eighty-one. She was put back in the box. Okay so but. Yeah at the end of nineteen eighty-one choose put back in the box. But at this time they'd gotten over that and they were really starting to bond over bible study because janice was like a big believer in the bible at this point so it was colleen. Yeah i'm gonna. I'm gonna keep my thoughts on that all backwards that is i'm gonna tell you the reason. Why cameron. how the fuck can you say that. You're the pie while doing this. Shit because cameron like twisted. And i'll get into it. Of course they would read their bible together and while they read their bible. They had to wear ski masks over their face. Like beans. Like ski beanies because cameron called them their prayer hats. Because i honestly no like nothing about the bible and i didn't look too far into it but i guess ladies back in the day we're not supposed to be seen while they were saying. Oh yes so. He made the word. These like. hat's wild wow. Aren't those called lake book. Cla zor the club. Oh you're asking the no look it up while you're doing it while they're while they're studying the bible together. They realized that they have a lot more in common than they thought. And they specifically paid attention to the story in the bible. About abraham sarah and hagar balaklava. Excuse me called a ball club. I okay it's like a prayer prayer is like this not made for that. It's just like one of those. It's almost like a ski mask type of thing like you know what you'd like like what you'd see like a robber wearing. Okay okay okay. That's what i pictured bala club bega interjection they're wearing their ball follows But like i said they realized that they have more in common than they thought. And specifically they paid attention to the story in the bible. About abraham sarah and i believe it's hagar So from what. I read so from what i read sarah. And abraham are married In the bible. But sarah can't have a baby so she tells abraham he can use her hagar as a way to have a baby and then they can all live. Together like copacetic. -ly well so okay. Pretty reminiscent of their situation now. Janice apparently leaned into this like full-fledged and would refer to herself as sarah and call colleen hagar or wow. I'm not sure. Sorry if i'm saying that wrong They even started going to church together with their kids. Cameron didn't wanna go. No but they became close. With the pastor pastor dabney and now they're seven years into colleen's imprisonment at this point when they start going to church together and janice is becoming more and more stressed out about this entire thing essentially. She's like on the verge of a nervous breakdown because she knows that this whole thing is wrong and i mean i think getting closer and closer to colleen probably realising. They had a lot in common and starting to humanize their prisoners. That really problem. Exactly what it is and i think it's getting to her conscience at this point because i mean for a long time. She was just hidden away literally in a boss so she didn't really have to think about it which my god is a lot to even greater out But now she's whether so year old. Janice i feel bad for and then later. I'm like fucking janet. Well you're both grow. I didn't get into it too much but janice was also being abused while calling was too. Yeah he was still carrying out sex acts on her. That she wasn't into the that makes sense that she was like at least scared to go against him. Yeah he was literally like later on during the trial they showed pictures of her while she's pregnant like hung from the ceiling. Yeah so like. She's very much victim. That's why i didn't really paint her too badly in like any kind of light. Because i personally think i mean you can take take this however you want to. But i think she's also victim. No i mean when you put it like that. Yeah yeah like when you put together all the details of what's happening. Yeah obviously what she was doing was not right but i think that she was just way too scared to do anything. Yeah i think it's when you look at it through the eyes of just looking at her and being like what you do in like you like aaron asshole right he just letting this woman go through this and not doing anything but then you look at it in the at in terms of abuse and she's also being abused so she scared of this dude exactly and she's also being brainwashed by him she also right thanks that she if she says anything or helps this woman notes going to be hurt right so you know what you're like. You can be mad at her because it is kind of selfish that she's looking you just shifting my perspective mid case. You're now so. Yeah now the sermons that pastor dabney would give. We're also not helping janice because there. She's like realizing that. Her husband is using the bible against her because his whole thing was that woman was to do her husband intended. That's what the bible said and he even started expressing to her. That woman man could do whatever he wanted like man was supposed to have multiple wives. So he's like i. I want to have four more wives. Actually in you have no say in. You just need to let it happen. Yeah that's what you're supposed to do and she's like the bible doesn't say that no i don't know what the bible says it all because i've never fucking but you know what i haven't either no but i think it's one of those things that you know. He's to a dark place. Yeah so enough was enough for janice and on august ninth nine hundred and eighty four janice rolls up to king's lodge and heads into one of the rooms and just tells calling the truth while she's in the middle of like cleaning up this motel room. She says the company's not real. No one's watching you. This is all so he just told you all this. So you wouldn't escape and i want you to be able to leave so like we have to get out of here. Jenness seven years ago. That would have been awesome but like all right all right about time. He came around better late than never. Janice yeah wow so colleen. A plot twist. Oh yeah oh yeah. There's another plot tests that you're gonna shite. Oh no so colleen. Couldn't tell doris what was going on. So she had finished her fucking day at work. Have you ever finished shift at work where you know. Some shit's going down or you got like yes attack. You know exit big now. Imagine it to this degree. Yeah i think a few episodes back are on scream. I was complaining about how i was dating. This guy and he like told me that he was going to break up with me. But like it wasn't gonna do it until after my shift basically and like i remember having to get through a ten hour shifts knowing that i can't imagine getting through a ten hour shift knowing that the entire past seven years was all ally that both of my leg brutal imprisonment 'wow and like now what what. Where do we go funny new. Turn all the lights on. where do we go. Yeah so doris is like kim. Can you finish your day at work. And coleens like yeah. Oh wow so calling finishes our day. Janice comes to pick her up and she's like let's go talk to pastor dabney so they tell this man everything in this man is like you need to get the fuck out of there. Go home right now. Pack up all your shit and leave like esther. Why did you tell me all of the pack your shit up and get out of their direct quote not not erect. He's like pack everything that you own and get the heck up out of their child yes So the only problem though was this is at the end of the day cameron's almost i'm from like a job and he's going to be home soon to leave all your shit and just leave but the kids. Oh i keep forgetting this kid children. Yeah so at this point like you said one is seven and i don't know how old the other one was but i don't think they're that far apart in h god they would have to get through one more night. Great about cbd's that it helps you feel better without making drastic changes to your routine. 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Parents now calling weighed her options because she and janice had actually talked about getting a police together but that voice from the gas station was back and choose like. Yeah no no. This isn't a good idea. No we shouldn't continue this friendship after the. This is a very toxic friend. That should be the end of the year. We should not communicate anymore so she called her dad and he wired her money and she. She didn't tell him everything on the phone but she was like coming home and he wired her money for the bus fare and In the book they say she asked for one hundred dollars and he was. Are you sure that's enough. Like i can send you. However much you want so he was probably just ecstatic. I will give you can just come home. That she was coming home but then she comes home and tells him everything and he's probably like what. Yeah yeah so four. She left before she gets on the bus home. She called cameron and she said quote. I just wanted to tell you that. I'm leaving that. I know you lied about everything and you can't keep me here anymore. They oh yeah. Wow and apparently. He cried on the phone with her. I don't i have no. I have no words. It's while i'm speechless. It's wild so when calling home. She told her family everything and they were like okay on our way to the police. Now young miss go go. And she's like no no no like janice had asked her not to in at this point calling was like i just want to move on like i don't want to deal with this but janice actually told colleen that she felt like. She could fix cameron and that they both owed him that chance. Oh janice we quote. Oh him that chance you brought me up. Just bring me right back down. Yeah so janice on the. She's going to bring you even down downer. She only spent a week with her parents before packing up her kids and taking them back to her husband smart where she took him to church and she was like church will change him but it wasn't she one night. She woke up and he was like a wake and like just like super tense. Like she could feel how tense he was and she was like terrified so she was like. Let's go burn everything. Because i think she thought like he's gonna kill me like let's let's let's go light things on fire so that make you feel better. We'll they burnt all of his bondage equipment. All the magazines that he had Pictures that he had taken of her and colleen like the burned a ton of shit because oh by the way he had a fucking darkroom in the basement. I yeah of course. He did so he had like some film and they thought they burned. Everything i know. But cameron wasn't changing janice was nearing an actual breakdown. Getting closer and closer to just losing her shit every day so she ended up telling a friend that she had recently made. I'm pretty sure this friend was like a receptionist at like a doctor's office. Oh cool but they just became really close so she told this new friend everything about colleen and how she was trying to change your husband but it wasn't working and like everything that's when you regret like strike alpo conversation about like your favorite. You know that's when you look in your area so you're like why do i have this face. Yeah i am i. Approachable why you feel like you can spill stuff on me. I don't under- just talking about that. The other day where. I have one of those faces. The shit people tell me sometimes especially when i was hairdressing i was like sometimes you like too much. So do you wanna go with the layers today. Help no okay. yeah so. Her friend was like You need to go to the police like and to like she janice was like i don't know like and she was like yet. What's stopping him from doing this to your children are getting older. They're both girls. Their kids were both girls. Yeah so. I mean he. At this point he hadn't done anything to them that anybody knew about but he could be capable. Yeah he's crazy look what he's capable of already. He's keeping a girl at a box for seven years. I wouldn't put anything past him. No so at that point. It was the straw that broke the camel's back janice went to the police and she turned her husband and not only for the kidnapping and seven year. Imprisonment of colleen also for murder. All right. what. Excuse me yeah. And that's where it not just off like fuck you re elizabeth. I'm not sure how to say this. I looked it up and there was forty two different ways how to say it. I'm going to say What did we really panicky. It's s. p. n. n. h. k. e. spanky. Spanky spin aki. There's a lot of different pronunciations out there. But we're gonna we're gonna call her morillas beth. She was nineteen years old and on january thirty. First nineteen seventy six. She accepted a ride from janssen cameron. Oh yeah Marine i believe it's marla because it's like marie elizabeth so it's like times can bulging could be more. Liz marlene's okay. I'm gonna say more because it's easier. Yeah so she didn't know the area well. She had moved from california to Excuse me should move to california from cleveland. In december of nineteen seventy five to live with her fiance and his name was john Ruth now the reason she was walking that day was because her and john were out on a shopping trip and they had gotten into like some kind of fight and she decided to walk home. Ooh yeah now when she didn't return home that night john was like super super worried and by february second. She's still hadn't shown up but nobody had heard from her so he went to file a missing persons report and actually for a long time he was considered a person of interest but he passed polygraphs and there was no evidence that he had done anything. No evidence at all really anything so they had to let him go but what really happened. Is that cameron was out hunting with janice and they both spotted marie and they drove her to where she asked to be driven but as she was getting out of the car cameron grabbed her by her hair and pulls her back into the car. What yes so. He abducted her and like the same exact manner as calling. He drove out to a romo area. He held her at knifepoint and he used the head box on her to He and janice even stopped for fast food on the way home. Just like when they kidnapped colleen. What a weird fucking tradition like ritual. Because they're waiting for the sun to go down yeah so but it's also just like fucked But when they got back home. Cameron took marie into the basement. Hung her up assaulted her. And actually this is horrifying. Tried to cut her vocal cords. What's yes try is beyond. She cut her vocal cords and she later asked for a pencil because she and paper because she wanted to tell him something but she couldn't speak so she wrote on the paper. Something like i'll give you whatever you want. If you just let me go or like. I saw two things i saw that and then i saw let me call my boyfriend so like he. He'll give you like money or whatever you want. Wow yeah put. Cameron didn't so according to janice he shot marie in the stomach with a pellet gun twice and then strangled her and he killed her. So wow janice thought that he killed her because he had control of the situation. Because i guess she was bleeding all obviously bleeding a lot after he had tried to cut her vocal cords and he just felt like he had messed up his image fixing. It was killing her. Yeah wow so. He goes up and gets jackson is like we need to clean this up. So he made her role up mary's body with him in like a tarp they drove out to lasson park and reading and dug a grave to place her body in and then they just let her there but not before cameron took her gold watch and i guess he would wear it every single day but it got destroyed machinery at the mill at one point. God yes she's just telling like police this like well and at this point this girl has been missing for like over seven years. They're like what's like. Oh my god yeah so. She has tried to help. Investigators find maurice body but when they had buried her it was snowing and now she was like i don't know where she is so they were never able to recover her body. Oh that's even worse. I feel like yeah and so Eventually the like when the trial gets going the prosecutors called john ruth. And they're like. Hey just so you know like we're pretty sure we have the guy that killed her like just so you're aware and he was like so thankful for that and he was like thank you so much because maurice parents died thinking that he was the one that killed her. Oh that's terrible. No oh my god. And he's like. Wow yeah wow so. This guy also murdered someone all right. Yeah so and actually. I'm going to go back to that a little bit later at the end. So just it's not a fun thing but it's like an interesting thing So cameron was arrested on november eighteenth and he was charged with multiple counts of kidnapping sodomy and rape. But like i said they couldn't use the murder case. Yeah because there's no body there's no evidence there's nothing yeah this is just. They know he did it. But so the judge on the case clarence night said hooker was quote the most dangerous psychopath i have ever dealt with. And that he is the opposite of what one seems. He will be a danger to women as long as he is alive. And i intend to sentence the maximum possible. Yeah so the defense did their best to make colleen look like she was a willing participant They even had cameron go on the stand to defend himself at one point and he said when he abducted her he was just trying to get her off drugs. He had found drugs in her purse and then he kept her and was like trying to help her He did plead guilty to kidnapping. He said like. He wanted to kidnap somebody but after that he said their relationship was like platonic. After i can napster got so real like we just hit it off. We did but the probably cute it was. It was a tough case. And i'm not. I didn't go subaru into the case. 'cause i it's like you would really picked in case. Yeah i really want and gets to go read the book. Yes yeah this just some books that like give you such a wealth of information and you want to use the unique they give you the bones that you need but right you don't wanna take they don't wanna take their meat worked really hard for that meet because the thing about this case is i did get a lot of information from just like online articles but the best information i got was from this book and it's amazing. Yeah so like i said. The defense tried to paint her horribly but top was that colleen had actually written letters spoken on the phone with cameron after she got home while yeah and the i mean some of them did seem like love letters but then they had like psychiatrist and stuff like that. Come on trial and we're like gallic. She was brainwashed. It takes a while to get out of. That is a funny thing. Yes but luckily the prosecution did a better job. Daily caught cameron in a couple of lines while he was on stand would contradict himself and he ended up receiving a hundred and four years in prison. Your your young now. He actually called colleen three days after his conviction and he said this is cameron. I called so you can chew my butt out or say whatever you want to me so you can shoot my buddy bought out and she was like. I don't have anything to say to you. Don't want to chew. don't call me ever again call and actually kristie mcguire. Who like i said co wrote the book the perfect victim. She made it so that he would never be able to convert shouldn't be able to and janice filed for divorce in january of eighty six. Wow and by all accounts. Like i think calling definitely struggled a little bit. She had like shed children and stuff like that and she was able to move on but she seems like she's doing a lot better She had like. I said like shoulder and back pain for the rest of her life. Yeah and the thing that i was gonna say safer last. So that's the end of it but when i was looking into the marie elizabeth kidnapping the first thing that came up. Was like this psychic thing. So this woman i believe. Her name is jodie foster which is hilarious and she had a daughter hannah and they had moved into marine old apartment. That like she had shared with john and that just scared door closed and her daughter. Hannah's started talking about my friends. Marley's marilyse da started like drawing pictures of her and all the pictures she would draw with little girl and she had like her like flip tear because it was like seventies. Yeah in a white sweater. And like i believe Blue jeans. i'm not sure color jeans. But that's how she would draw her. Why and then. So she liked the little girl withdraw her friend and then jodi herself started having all these like crazy dreams and stuff like very vivid dreams and in one of the dream. The dreams that she had in the apartment was a girl being brought down into a basement. Hung up and shot twice in the stomach. Stuff just like janice had told this like the investigators that should is so weird and so this lady didn't know anything about this case and thought that she was literally going insane like yeah. She had actually called the police at one point she was like. I don't know what to report to you. But like but i feel like i'm so she ended up moving out of the apartment and when she was either moving out of the apartment or she was talking to a neighbor about something and the neighbor said to her. Oh you have marie elizabeth's spanish ke's that's her apartment and he was like other people who have lived in. That apartment have had those dreams. Wow that's insane. Yes that's so spooky not bonkers this case. So yeah that is. Has everything terrible everything to be honest with you. That was really just an overview because it would break your mind in half if you weren't a willing participant to hear everything. How yeah insane seriously seriously like i think. It's two dollars on kindle cloud cloud reader and you can use that on your computer. You don't need a kindle get. The perfect victim on amazon is such a good read. I read it in two days. There's so many true crime books that are like just grossly underappreciated. Once you find him for these kind of cases it's just like whoa and what. I like about this book. I'm a big fan of books. And actually it's like the one that you're renting that go back and forth with the in this book goes and i think a book like this is necessary to go back and forth because it starts off with like calling getting abducted and stuff and then it goes into who cameron and janice are and then it actually like. It starts talking about all the abuse that she went through. But then it it breaks until like when the defense and the prosecution and the investigators start working on the case and then it goes back to like and then it was nineteen eighty one and this is happening but it keeps going back and forth between kind of how on the farm is with It's it does that too. Like goes back and then until like what was happening at the time. I like that because with a case like willie pick dinner a case like this. It's just so brutal that you almost need that break. Yeah you need to have a sense of like the timeframe the other ship. That was going down at that time just to get like a full feeling like in -veloping yourself in it. Yeah and they do a really good job with that stuff yet. These authors journalists and yeah so that was unreal. Bonker you did a great job presenting it thank you. I had no idea that there was also a murderer involve no idea. I've heard about the girl in the balmy tastes like a million times. And i knew an overview of and never knew that part. I never knew that he was a murderer and is unfortunately in jail for murder but they know that he did it. Yeah thank goodness. He's in jail forever. Yes seriously wow yeah. Wow wow wow everybody how he will return assists. That was doozy forever. Oh i was like this is for everyone at the end of the case. I'm just like this is it is all inclusive. It's just chosen by air patrols exactly So yeah and then. Luckily third episode is going to be a little lighter it is. It's still pretty bleak very later in like it's not really lighter. It's not it's just different. It involves some lighter material. Yes it has like an element where you go. Oh and they go oh again and then it really ends on a and who knows we might have a special guest we might. Yes so just stay tuned. Yeah all right well in the meantime while you're staying tuned follow us on instagram at morbid. Podcast hit us up on twitter at a morbid podcasts on mosul jerry meryl morbid podcast edgy. Mill dot com. And we hoping listening. We hope you keep it so weird bad you dot. Don't be pop a.

colleen cameron janice alice linda cameron hooker bob Bethany frankel california bedia riverside california Evelyn westwood stan evelyn myra hindley ian brady bajaur bubba
Unsolved New York City: The Zip Gun Bomber

Real Monsters

1:25:43 hr | Last week

Unsolved New York City: The Zip Gun Bomber

"Hello hello hello. This is west from real monsters. A nuggets wanted to take a few seconds in talk to you about pinker. It is the easiest way to make a guest and believe me. That was something that i was looking for men. I had to take over the tech side of our operation. It's free that allows you to do a lot of stuff when you get in there so head on over to anchor dot. Fm start today to get your opinions out be heard it can definitely help you Hello welcome. It's another thursday evening in a quarantine. Land time for another thursday night real monsters. I'm your host escaper. joining me. is the ever talented. Who has low halo. had lou. Look how you doing. I'm not too bad every year. Doing all right doing all right. Avin fantastic weather last couple of days. Very good it's been storm in like crazy here most every single day monsoon weather in illinois. Yeah yeah this is unusually good weather for this time of year. Usually from memorial day to independence days pretty crappy. This is true where you're et. Maybe the stereotypes wrong about the pacific northwest. Not you know yeah. Well the joke is. We have two seasons winter then. July and august. Oh well yeah. It's a stereotype with the mid. West early isn't wrong either. It's just always volatile here with the weather so but yes speaking of that with the news actually right before we were going on. The the former cardinal pitcher saint louis cardinals pitcher. Felipe vasquez is on sitting in prison. Right now for about twenty felonies related to a child sex case they brought up another one against him yeah. He's already convicted of the others. I'm pretty sure you might be sitting and waiting for that okay. I would have to check a bit close more closely. Yeah they're bringing another one against him so salty bad. But i don't i just don't get it seems like there's every week there's new stories of child pornography and child sex rings and all this shit. They've just they cops. Where was it. They canada shutdown big child sex trafficking ring that involved. you know school officials. yeah. I saw that i. It's great that they caught on. Yeah yeah i mean absolutely. I just don't understand the appeal of any of that. No i mean i don't either. The only reason that i write that stuff down is because it does. Kinda come under our purview absolutely order but there was another one this week to that was interesting for another reason. It really reminded me of ian brady in my routinely. it's not just because it was england. Yeah but you had these two pedophile in. The wife was trying to help the husband rape a child. Jesus and these two. I think give him time. They probably would have killed somebody if they weren't cod. Yeah that's how. That was definitely the case with myra. And oh yeah. What's his name. Ian and also fred in rose west. So yeah i always forget about them but yeah of into its -solutely The other stuff going on of course. Minneapolis just sad. I mean i. I'm sure i've said it before my relatives in minnesota love that state i do. I did some work there. Many years ago Oh yeah spend a lot of weeks. They're not a place. I would wanna live at just because the weather but i love the people in the state and i love visiting. What was interesting is we stayed at the hotel that later was used for the parking garage scene in fargo. Yeah really recognize that place. that's awesome. Yeah that's a league. It's actually where my Family on that site is from moorhead minnesota right across the red river from fargo so but Yeah in that. Whole george floyd case man. That's that is bad news. I was trying to understand that. I just trying to get people to benefit of the doubt but i just don't see a reason you would ever put a neon suspects neck. No when he's down. And i could understand the back in some cases but the neck was just gunk yet. I haven't even been able to bring myself to watch it. And he was cuffed. he was for screened. He was on the ground and they still have the knee on him. But you know the thing that thing. This has been bugging me for a long time for years. In fact is this attitude among law enforcement that they have to protect. You know the department from scandal and it's like bullshit you do what's right and that's get trust not from influence over shit up and and sweeping it under the rug in one thousand percent the on that Hopefully wider use a body. Cameras will You know. I encourage that i think other things again help. Like citizen review boards to work with them in. You know just more community policing to yeah that whole thing. I saw it Fox news actually did an excellent job with how they were covering the riott there. They took a big section out of the article in day on. Were quoting a reporter. Who was on the ground for a mayor. Local twin cities outlet. It was talking to these guys that were there with guns but they were protecting the stores. Okay yeah and they. They said we don't agree with this looting but we do agree. But the protests yeah. They're they're really hurting their own community. By stealing and burning the local businesses the small targets a minneapolis company for crying out loud. Oh absolutely i mean. I saw this. This literally happened in my backyard in ferguson. Not far from there at all in saint louis. I actually had a friend. The night of the ferguson. Riots who was a manager at a local business down there. he's also ex military. He saw rioters coming near a store. Near as house. Took his sidearm outside. Fired a warning shot in the air and it dispersed them. Yeah they do that really well. Yeah it's again. It's the good guys with guns. But it also reminded me of what mr rogers said before when things get dark. Look for the people who are trying to help. Yeah netted it gives you a little bit of hope when you see that. I thank you know taking a flat screen. Tv is not helping your cause if yeah you're causes justice for this murdered man stealing a flat screen. Tv is just not you know. Furthering that agenda. It's just it s just stealing. It's all it like. I couldn't agree more. And i really couldn't but the question that i have with that and i'm sure this will come out in time. How many of those people looting were actually from the area when that happened in ferguson. A lot of them who were arrested for that were from outta town. I'm sure yeah. On just way to their yes. There does seem to be a certain element that loves to dive in and cause mayhem when these things happen. Yeah the people who just want to watch the world burn. yeah yeah you need a couple of these. That were kind of more funny E- muskogee county georgia. Da he filmed any legal rap video with two guys who are doing donuts in a county turkey lot and they were arrested so i saw that and frankly i wasn't really clear what the big deal was. No it really was this. They burned rubber in a parking lot. And yeah yeah. I mean what's the deal. I think they were trying to see something about Defacing or destroying government property. But it's like so what it wasn't that bad. No but now i think somebody's being kind of petty and trying to undermine maybe a you know opposing candidate. Maybe it could be. I'm not sure. Oh yeah and then you had the woman who was arrested for battering her boyfriend her excuse. She said he quote liked it rough. Yeah does that. Does that work when a guy says it. Nope new equal protection able equal protection cuts both ways. Yeah if you are opposed to domestic violence you gotta be opposed to it going both directions because it does. I wonder how much of that sun reported when it happens against men most of it. I think i've seen numbers in the eighty ninety percent of it is unreported man that oh yeah he had a Another interesting item. This one came out of saint. Paul in the It actually involves the church of scientology but not in the way you would think there was a guy who was brought up on charges for shooting a mugger in a parking garage and k turned out. He was a church of scientology employees but they just dropped the charges against him. It sounded like pretty clear-cut self-defense. With what happened. It's so the scientology employees was the mugger. Oh he was the guy who shot the mugger. Oh okay yeah yeah. Oh and then you head. Remember the fire. The arson at the kyoto anime studio last summer. Yes we talked about it on this segment of the show. I think i think agency finally made an arrest with that really. Yep is past week. Oh and then the last rather funny headline this out of the ukraine. A woman was caught on tape taking her. Knickers was the sun's verbiage for that taking her knickers off and using them as a face mask after the person at the post office said. I'm not serving you without a mask. So april effort on that one. Oh yeah i mean come on. you know. Wh what's crazy is that it it is this mindset that you see all the time. It's nothing new but these you know these petty rule and petty rule enforcers. That are more. I mean it's just fucking. Tsa bullshit all over again right. Thank your shoes off. Why well one time. Twenty years ago some guy you know you cover your face well covering your face with most things is no better than not having a cover it all year. I mean it really doesn't do a lot personally i think. A lot of that is tied to property rights to once. You get down to it. If you're talking about a private business wants to mandate that. Yeah they should have every right to. Oh absolutely i'm just saying if you're going to say if you're going to say you need to be protected then make it's not just some piece of satin they off your ass literally because because because it's fabric and it's over your face. Yeah probably won't do a whole lot. Yeah it was at a post office too. I have a real problem with stupid rules in heard that but yeah definitely that was all i had for the news. Okay this week another very strange case this week. Bizarre most definitely and before we get into this one. Yeah need to make it clear to people this. Although the first incident happened in one thousand nine hundred eighty two is still an active investigation with the nypd explosives. Squat the atf in new york city alcohol tobacco firearms and explosives now. Etf e in the us postal inspection service. So what that means is they are holding quite a bit of info back right in you know. You can't blame him on that. They have to have it as leverage if they ever do pulse. Somebody in yes but you can't You know you can't be disclosing everything. Yeah oh absolutely. And it's considered an open case and it's thirty eight years. Yeah yeah until the first one but that also means that a lot of what we had to do with sources with this was cobble it together and what i have about twenty five different news. Articles is what i used to get all this info And all of them share. You know different pieces of what's happening. But i'll do my best to present it cool. Be sure let me know what images you wanna see. Sure if it's the yeah. Let's do that But start with the image of the house in brooklyn. I believe it has a black stamp and date stamp under it ended to start people off to get you in the head. Space may seventh nine thousand nine hundred eighty two. It's the friday before mother's day of the year and we're in a modest. I guess you could say middle class neighborhood in brooklyn new york. One of the five boroughs. We're at the home of fifty four year. Old job in kip and her husband. Howard a. two children one named doreen who lives in connecticut. And another named craig. Who's twenty eight at the time in lids literally thousand feet from them just around the corner in an apartment guy. Yep that is their house. It's around four o'clock in the kids. An howard have plans to go off to their vacation home in lake hayward connecticut that day. But it's around four o'clock so joan is on her way home from her job at a local junior high school as a guidance counselor and her husband. Howard he's out in the garage. Fiddling around with something around the house and joey and she gets home she takes alan. Everything looks fine in. She puts it on the table in. There's a package at the top. It's about it's about roughly six nine inches end. Nothing looks amiss with it so she takes the knife in. She opens it just like any other packet. And it's a cookbook right. I think we have a picture of the book that it is to have a pitcher. It was a cookbook ordered from sears. And roebuck she didn't order it but she thought it might have been a gift for mother's stat not an unreasonable assumption. Right considering today and everything. So she sits down. Opens it howard. Meanwhile is at the kitchen window on the side of the house. Here's a loud explosion. He runs inside. There are three or two bullets rather in his lights abdomen and one lodged in the kitchen wall. So what does he do. He's freaking out at the time. Of course just like any nervous husband would epa in that. He takes her to the couch. Leaser down and call nine one one to get an ambulance. There did in me. What was it obvious that it came from the cookbook. He i'm sure he wasn't sure at the time i mean when your adrenaline still running high right. I think it would be you know. It's reasonable to be in a little bit of shock with that. But he has her on the couch under and she is his way in there. She's bleeding out literally in front of him and she looks at him and she says some pretty cryptic words. Sorry i'm on the wrong page with that quote there rodin here she says to me and my notes. She says quote look what they did in and she goes on and says there may be other It okay so yeah see. I could take that first one as just you know not necessarily meaning that she knew who it was but just as like. Hey look what they did to me then when you that second sentence that's weird that may say something and it's going to go to a couple of the theories as to this bomber. Yeah more that we get into it but the ambulance gets there and they take her to the local lutheran hospital. She dies three hours later on the operating room table. With one of the of the rounds in the shrapnel that god near enough to her heart. feted gilder. Yeah i am the police stay. Start investigate god. I still chewing on her words. It's it sounds like she was had some kind of an inkling of who was behind it. Doesn't it it really does. And it could go a couple of different ways to a couple of different series though which will get you can but the police they get there the new york on the nypd bomb squad gets there to investigate this. They find the device is was hollowed out. Insight this cookbook and what it consisted which we have some of the parts here where two six volt batteries wires over a metal plate that were looped into light bulb. Filaments in these light bulb filaments were each looped into three separate steel barrels. That were made from brake lines which we have pictures up to the reason that i fished those out honestly when i first spread the brake line thing. It made me think of rubber rubber. It's too much pressure right rubber. That was the but they are bad. Writing with it but break lands. Brank lines are a a pressure tube. with with Pressure couplings on each end. But they're flexible. Yeah yeah and the the barrels. These things served as the barrels for the three twenty two rounds that were in three separate barrels. Three twenty two rounds in each of these head. The light bulb filaments hooked in directly to the gunpowder beneath them in the powder they found the powder with these was double the usual amount of gunpowder in twenty two round. Which there's a couple reasons. I was trying to wrap my head around for that which we can get to a little bit here. Yeah so basically what happens with that. Is they opened. She opens the book completes the electrical circuit in boom. All three of 'em fire But now the text guys that examined this said they were surprised that all three of them fire. There must've been so they didn't elaborate bad with what i could find but there must have been some fly about it or maybe it's just because they hidden seen a bomb lights and that's because this isn't actually a bomb. It's a it's a crude gun. It's not something like a pipe. Bomb explosive device that shoots in all directions shrapnel right right and that's another thing that's very very curious about this usually when you see bonds they are meant for like you said maximum destruction not the sort of surgical position. Well unit bombers A lot of his were small personal explosive devices right but small enough to where they would just kill one person. I don't think so. I think he's 'cause he would send he would send bombs to individuals in would ended up killing just the targeted person interesting. I didn't know that are about him. But yeah there's still there's quite a degree of surgical precision with us anyway but. Yeah but here's the thing though. Even with well i was gonna say you know you. Would you take a risk of missing person completely this way but you if you take into consideration the expected Way the victim would approach the bomb in this case the cookbook. They would turn an upside right. You know yeah and open the cover so you have a pretty good idea how. The victims going to be oriented towards the device. Yeah and that's the you know the vital thing there too. It wasn't just opening the package that caused the explosion. It was opening the book right but this happened in so the police. Investigators they brought in of course the postal inspectors with this in later on the atf as well looking at this as just an isolated incident for the time being right well why why would you think anything else. Especially if there was no news there was actual was and this leads into one of the first suspects that they had for jones murder. They found a note written on the Cover or the inside. Cover rather of the cookbook in it said joan. You're dead next howard next craig. In it had her name cross stops and from there basically they took ebersol written. This is interesting because we've talked about handwriting analysis before on here. I never knew until studying this because it is not a science when you get down to it. It's art you're literally comparing Right true true and Looking for patterns it's a lot of pattern recognition and You know there's a lot of a lot of different very subjective interpretations of things Slings that you can't just measure that shit. it's very much subjective. Oh absolutely but yeah like a lot. A surprising amount of forensic evidence is subjective. Oh yeah i mean we we kind of have this idea from tv shows and shit that for red it's hard science and it really isn't What you get down to it though. I think there might be a bit harder of the base for something like. Let's say ballistics yes. His handwriting analysis but Yeah that note. They actually started focusing on the father. On howard in on craig as their first suspects with this which is natural when you have this sort of murder and Howard was very cooperative with them. He gave him the keys to his marine consulting company in red hook that he owned yeah and he also even gave them his wife's diary. The guy is very open about it about everything with that. But what really made that. All turn was on the day of jones funeral beforehand. The police a drag in doreen and subject her for upward. Such three hours of questioning on the day for months funeral which just made no sense to me is a tactic you know. This is the image of doreen from taken from a different brooklyn spectator. I believe which is i. Don't know if they're still around or not. It was the third party swords. Sagada from. But i think it's labeled as from the spectator. Yeah that is story. She said her quote was. I felt harassed in after all of that they ended up. Finding legal. counsel in the legal counsel was helping keep ups away. So that's what a good lawyer does by the police. Come to ask you questions you you give them one word answer lawyer lawyer. Yep and you know. I think that honest cops will understand that they will understand your legal rights and they'll respect them but i just i can get over that hell incompetent. Do you have to do that. Because first of all they're going to be uber emotionally anyway when you drag him in the day of the funeral but they did that and they pivoted a little bit after this when they couldn't dig up anything on howard and they went to the sun crate and they hit the see and writing analysis again block letters. Bit compared it to craig's and you had one analyst who said that. It's a match but come to find out into site in this pseudoscience of handwriting analysis. It's very hard if not impossible to match block letters to an individual conclusively. There's leander in day ended up finding about four other experts. This was the state not the defense found. Four other handwriting. Experts said no. This is an is handwriting. So wow yeah and in this. The guy who initially said at the expert who initially said it was employed by the postal service apparently is And they also had a little bit of evidence with a Explosives canine handler body. And a shepherd that apparently alerted on one of craig's sox alerted on the center in alerted on the same sent with a mechanism from inside the bomb in the. We've not actually need this. They set out in array of them is what they said in a ray these you know that. Look the same. Apparently but the problem there there was a Lawyer by the name of abercrombie who was a former prosecutor with it used to shop in store this guy. He said that the main problem there wasn't that the evidence was uncomfortable which it was. It stepped the experts. Were not credible. will then trainer credible and neither was the handwriting guy. Yeah so what they do. They dropped the murder charge that they had and they dropped a federal mail tampering charge that they had they actually released him on seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Bail was what they said it shows ford. They dropped those charges. So yeah it the whole thing pretty much dead end from there but there was another suspect that came up in roughly nineteen eighty three. And this was a guy by the name of stephen wavre who was about Let's see he was born in nineteen fifty four so twenty nine at the time. He was a former student at the junior high. Where joan kip was a guidance counselor in. He said that he didn't have anything against her personally. But you will get his history. It's yeah it's out there. He was held back for two years at the junior high. He got out. He spent about a year in the air force from one thousand nine hundred. Seventy two thousand nine hundred seventy three okay. I wasn't able to find out what capacity he served in the military what he actually did in the air force but was though one year. Nineteen seventy two to seventy three so slow. They kicked him out. Essentially they found out with medical in a psychiatric examination. That he suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. Bud this guy. He gets a little bit better as suspect for on my mind and looking at this he also had a history of getting into a fight with an mp while he was in the air force. Okay and making bomb threats to postoffices. Oh yeah but there's action it gets even better with this hallway that they even got a bead on the sky in one thousand nine hundred three. They were investigating him for unrelated stuff. They went into his apartment of. I would assume for search. They found bomb-making materials on his stove and apparently they found a device. That was similar to the cookbook. Okay so yeah. One of the problems that i have with the way. The law enforcement in the press defines bomb-making materials. Is you could go into any guys. Garage knows how to make shit and fix shit. And you can called bomb-making materials. I mean this is true but they also found a device that was similar to the bug. A. if you now if you find something that's constructed or partially constructed. That's a different story. Yeah but this every guy in my family has a garage full wires and you know gasoline and fertilizer and batteries and nails sure. Yeah def of different kinds. Oh my god is bomb making materials. Well no that's just household maintenance shit. Oh yeah most definitely but yeah. When did the other charges that they said was on his rap sheet was has ashen obnoxious chemicals. I couldn't find any clarification on that either What that even means but that was on there and he spent you know a lot of time in prison throughout this. He was actually in prison. When kip died but they head a theory with us that he mailed the parts to his roommate and his roommate constructed pants out but it could be but the saga stephen havre doesn't end there home. Nine thousand nine hundred ninety five when we get into the middle of wendy's other bombings are happening. That which will talk about. They found him in a brooklyn library with another bomb. That was similar to the books but was filled with exacto blades shrapnel. They caught him in a library with a device with one. I'm not sure if it was weaponized yet. If it was ready to you know be us. Yeah but they caught him with again. Something similar woo. Yeah and um looks that kind of makes you thank. You might be the guy right in really does but the last mentioned that i saw this guy in the press was in two thousand and two when the new york daily news caught up with him for an interview and he was in prison at federal prison in beaumont. Texas for possession of twenty two shells fell they Gave him ninety months for that really seemed like yet. It seemed like quite a bit for just for joni to show musician. Yeah but ninety months yeah. He also said he was going to write his own history of this gates. So but there's some more weird tie ins with him with these other bombings to but let's just keep him in mind and sorta table in a little bit of suspect for now. Skip ahead from nine thousand nine hundred eighty two all the way to nine hundred and ninety three. This was win. Our next package was delivered to retire. New york city sanitation man anthony lens at his home in ireland and it was actually picked up by his relatives and brought to their on vacation house in the poconos pennsylvania northeastern pa on the new york order and they brought this one in which was td like a Coin case blue velvet coin case which. I think we have a picture if people wanna see that. And they brought this one in and opened it it explodes again. We assigned three twenty two shells. One of them hits anthony lens. One of them hits his boy who is staring and one of them hits his eleven year old granddaughter. Liza now luckily wall. All free of them were injured. None of them died. So that's great but they Were you know looking at that and that happened to and again with this. One is interesting because like in the kip case. There were two barrels pointed in one direction and the other barrel pointed in the other direction. Exact opposite and then all of them were forward in one opposite. Yes and One officer one investigator said it's almost like he is trying to take you out somebody on the opposite side of the room with that one So you know two people with one but Yeah and they were at about the angle like in the case where they would hit Vital organs in the chest yeah vital organs or higher so you have that one and the next one so that was an years after the first one right yes. Ten years that's a long cooling off period. It is and i mean we. We say it from time to time but not frequently. No we really don't in between these two. The investigators said that they were pretty certain. This was the same guy. And i would be inclined to believe them considering the amount of detail that they withheld from a press right but there is this idea out there that in this goes back to what howard said in one thousand nine hundred. Eighty two in an interview with the brooklyn spectator where. He said that he thought it was a joke. Gone bad by One of her students at that school basically maybe one that was suspended. Or what have you. That could fit the bill. The bill for mr. Where for a if you look at it. If it was a joke gone bad. And as partial evidence for that what he said was that his wife's cryptic words. Yeah meant that. She wanted him to call the principal at the school to warn other teachers. That's what he thought that that yeah generally speaking pranks involving bullets are not really pranks. Yeah yeah i mean. I agree a prank gone horribly wrong Which we'll get to that other theory hereafter prank. You have maybe a tiny amount of black powder that just goes poof. Or maybe a little tiny bang. It's shock not alive around and around. Yeah not a barrel. Jesus yeah but If you look at that there is this idea that it was just one person in nineteen eighty two and maybe it was a copycat in nineteen ninety-three i it's one theory. Yeah but again. They would know they were there would be. I would suspect key differences in the device construction that the police would be able to say yay or nay. I mean you could definitely go all. Look we've got this and this and this that identical so this is clearly the same guy. Yeah i i agree when you look at it and like i said the amount of detail that's being withheld with them. You have to just trust the people who are examining this and have no reason to lie about it right but he hit the lens a package which was nailed from Berkeley on the first one was meal from. I believe staten island k. On the return addresses. Skip ahead about a year april fifth nineteen ninety four seven seventy five year old brooklyn i khas well receives a package and this one again. It's a commemorative coin blue velvet kids. It's addressed to her brother by the name of richard. Mcgarrell who was a retired customs officer at the newark airport. But he and lived with her for about fifteen years before this was sent she opens it and to twenty two shells hit her in the abdomen and she Luckily made her way to a neighbor's house as she was bleeding out and she survived to. Wow yeah seventy-five thin she survived which dissect solent but they'll really stood out to meet to fifteen years and they didn't know that guy was there. Yeah some old information right. Yeah something but it's also kind of starts to show the pattern that we're seeing with that. All free of the address sees are civil servants right some sort of physician but we skip ahead again to the next attack. June twenty seventh one thousand nine hundred ninety five. Eighteen year old stephanie. Gaffe nate who lives in queens at her grandparents house by their grandparents name is gilmore. Chiba receives a package bed. The police were rather mum on. What exactly this package was like. She said it was book. I'm not sure why they would withhold that particular bit of information especially of miss gaffney at already said that in a different account but She said you know the package. Look to legitimate. And it was addressed to again her grandfather. This fund was interesting too because it actually said gilmore or occupant on it or interesting it kind of makes you wonder if maybe he didn't learn from the attack on alice as well. Dad mr mcgarrell was no longer living there but it's addressed to give more or occupant which she assumes her grandfather who was retired in li- pd officer and her uncle as well was say narcotics officer. Who was responsible for bringing down. Eight dominican drug gang in the city but it and again You had shrapnel that luckily none of them and the traded her body. She was about eight months pregnant. When this happened to miss gaffney she just suffered burns from it when it happened but they took her to the hospital right away in induced labor because they were worried about kid right in. Luckily she had a healthy baby girl so in her in her little girl were fine. So what was. The composition of the device was different than it sounds like. Well you know. I think this one might be more. How she was holding it when opened on. She said that she had it at a pretty acute angle from her oke in it open so that could be why she was just burn from it in. Yeah that was another very very bizarre attack and skip ahead again about one year to june twentieth nineteen ninety-six. There's a retired real estate agent by the name of richard basile. Who received a package that looked like a videotape which it was addressed to his wife who also worked in the real estate office with him actually asked a agent that i know it's been in the game for awhile because all these packages have been basically tailored to the individual at they thought was receiving it. Right yeah yeah and it wouldn't have been outta line for a real estate agent to receive a videotape. That's usually like a walk through a building. Or what have you but all back. You had to have physical media. Yeah in ninety six basically pre internet anyway in the way that we're talking about it this son videotape. He cut his wife's package. Open the tape explodes in. Their kitchen of them were injured. It just blew out their window. So this wind about dodging a bullet literally literally dodging elise probably too. Yeah but Yeah it just blew out the window. This one was interesting though. I couldn't find any evidence that his wife was somehow in civil service or the military the way all the others have been okay but Interestingly on this package our guy was getting a little bit more bull because guess what he put us. The return address march of dimes of greater. New york. yeah yeah The police said it wasn't official label on it but he apparently used their name and address so that after that attack. They pretty much just fizzled out. Really there hasn't been another one. It just stop a so so the guy that was our early prime suspect stephen webre. Yeah so is he. Still alive was in prison was he. Could he have been he free to do all of them. And did he ever get incarcerated or hospitalized or dead or anything like that after my understanding is still alive. he would be about. When did i say he was born. He'd be about water least sixty s roughly right now but he wasn't out of krizan that first time until two thousand and five but there are some other kinda fishy connections here. Maybe they're just sort of general navy. They don't mean anything but police who thought he was a good suspect found records of either him or his roommate in the computer of local pharmacies next to each of the victims places of residence revering ear. I don't know how they thought to check that right but they found these threats pharmacies of all things it makes me wonder. They didn't even give name of the roommate in any of the articles that i read. It makes me wonder if he didn't have a history of drug abuse. Maybe he was doctor and pharmacy shopping in that was held a thought to do that. But with the connections there with wavre said that it always popped up at a pharmacy or somehow in the victims neighborhood but they can never pin down why it was just always there and breathe it bred more questions than answers once you get down to it. Yeah that is. That is very curious. Yeah why they'd be in all of those. Yeah but you know you can and you can make a case based on probabilities like that. Like it's like you know this is completely outside of random. Yeah oh absolutely. I mean when you look at all of the amount of pharmacies in the five boroughs of new york city on top of that right yeah. They couldn't never figure out a connecting thread there but there was the other big theory that one camp of the cops was looking at is interesting because you hear these different investigative camps that cropped up among these different agencies and people looking at it. You have the cops that still like the kipps for it even with these other bombings. Really yeah i i swear to god some some detectives men. They're like a dog with a bone. Kind of get myopic about. Yeah you know they do get myopic but it for my money. There's really nothing that ties to keep. Stay any of this when you look at it. In with gregg they were trying to make the argument that because the Because howard's business involved install lean very electrical devices on ships boilers that. Craig's somehow knew how to build those bonds from. Yeah come on. that doesn't follow to me at all. In fact howard said that to them. He said this kid hasn't even taken physics. And you expect him to build a sophisticated may oba right in effect. One of the postal inspectors. He had an interesting quote where he said. There are no unsophisticated. Mail-bombs you have to have a good degree of sophistication to build one period. Yes is what he said you. Don't you don't necessarily acquire that in school. But you've gotta have some hands on you know understanding of the The forces involved in the mechanics involved in the engineering involved definitely and i think that this guy it's pretty fair to say he added knowledge and understanding of guns in how they were to have to. Yeah but you hear these two different camps he had the one who liked to kipps and then you had the ones who were looking really close so afra and liked him for yeah and It just said sort of went on from there and they can never get enough evidence for anybody. Wow any of them. Although there was one cop is said in twenty ten that we might just be one interview away from solving debts I don't know exactly how. But well i mean that's always the case isn't it e. And they were being kind of weird with how they were dropping son of the information that seem year there was a cop who said and i quote we have a new development and the only elaboration that he gave on that. This is an ongoing investigation. He didn't say anything else. It seemed very weird to me that you would drop just that did of information without saying more. Well it's probably a good thing you didn't say more because it sounds like it didn't pan out. Yeah yeah yeah i mean. It definitely didn't. But for my money again i think wavre is when probably could be looked at more is definitely a better suspect in the kipps where yeah sounded to me like. He had some people who were trying to railroad that family and it turned out with that howard remarried and moved to massachusetts. Not sure when he died but he probably it was thousand two seventy seven when they were talking to him and Stephen kip he was going to move with his wife. Susan at san diego before his mom was murdered in it turned out. They moved to connecticut and he had a job at a computer place as a form doing something guy and he lost stat and when they caught up with him in two thousand two he was just a cashier at a seven eleven. So it sounded like it kinda destroyed that yet. Yeah i've said it before in this show. Murder kills families. Yeah it really does is just very sad. Yeah stab was a big part of the case that they were trying to build their the cops. I type pasta sized that howard fired steven from his job and frontier. They tried to basically spin this narrative that st or dad on craig rather he fired craig from his job. Sorry not confused there for a second. Yeah it howard fire craig. We had challenged. Said was unequivocally ron in that from their the hate for his parents just festered and fester and howard against said. That's unequivocally crab with his word. He said that the reason that craig lost his job with the marine company is that he just wasn't good at it and you know and they all felt that it was good. Creamed move on. He wasn't fired. Quit okay so before he was fired. Yeah probably probably so. If he was mad at anybody he'd be mad at the company. Yeah most likely family. Businesses can get weird. I take that for me. I work at one but yet from what it sounded like it was just holy manufactured bullshit for lack of a better sure yet. There's still as far as i can. Tell. there is still a hundred thousand dollar reward for information on this too if anybody hears this and knows any fag. You know anything. Get in touch with us. If i can find it. I haven't been able to yet. But if i can find a contact with the feds are with the nypd for tips with that and somebody is listening to this. Who knows something. I'll posted on her facebook. I was looking for that. And i didn't see anything but you know it's weird man. One of the weirdest case has the new york history when you know. It doesn't actually qualify. Serial killer does he because he only killed what two people know. You only one only one person so definitely not a serial killer now but still. This is the kind of behavior that you know as they say often with serial killers. They don't stop on their own. No ended that gets to actually the last theory that may be worth looking at some investigators who think that this might be extortion with the different people. And they base that on a lot of the The victims when they interviewed them were the word they used was reticent in oh one cop said it was like they just wanted to be left alone in to just move on from it really. That may just be they reacted. I don't know yeah but everybody not necessarily all the time but they said that there was more than a few who were like. That seems odd. I mean one. Maybe okay because you never know how people will react. But you start getting a pattern of that. That's that is weird. Yeah it definitely is and it could in theory cast new light on those cryptic words. Joan told howard as she bled out on her couch so what she said could mean a kid troubled kid. Yeah maybe it means maybe extortion. Now the police did say. They looked at organized. Crime in the kip case. Yeah nothing came of it but it doesn't have to be organized crime necessarily for extortion either could be individuals end. In which case. I think the extortion hypothesis might also explain why he waited ten years from the first one. He got a little heed. Didn't want to kill her. He wanted to scare in once she died he gets rattled and he sits on basically he's doing until ninety three perfected a little bit more to where he is not killing any fm. In which case maybe he stopped in nineteen ninety-six because his job with stein one feary. Maybe he did enough money to go wherever he wanted to go. That very well could be and in. Which case task was done. He didn't feel yet to do anymore. Knew that that makes sense. I think it might make more sense. Some others either that one or i think whatever might be good for it to just from looking at it but yeah i mean the serial bomber. Who technically wasn't a serial bomber. What you down right zip guns not a bomb. Y'all so it is kind of misleading. But yeah those are just some of that. I found on the net. A lot of those were actually made imprisons Sip guns can be very popular. Weapons along with ships. Gotcha so interesting using a zip gun. Wouldn't leave any traceable strike on the bullet would it now because there's no rifling nope none at all in in an gets back to something interesting to if you look for plans on the internet of how to build these things. Yeah most of them. That come becker. Actually for a twelve gauge shotgun. Shell ended. Yeah it makes you wonder. Why wouldn't you use those if you were building a bomb. You know what. I mean if you're building a bomb it's definitely not as surgical split. This guy did right but put bombs really are so Shotgun materials definitely more conducive to building a bomb. Because you have the powder in you have the shot pellets. When you factually inaccurate swanee to is not good. I mean might be fine for zip gun. But it's not good for a bomb now not at all and got me to wonder. Maybe he didn't use to shotgun shells because of the difference in powder between that and a twenty two. I mean even with double the powder in there which he did for every single round that he packed it's about eighty grains of powder even with double vet that's newer near the amount that's in a typical twelve games. No no no no well my theory on why he doubled. The powder is because there wasn't rifling and it makes sense because you don't so you know when a when a rifle round is fired you know the the the primary ignited which ignites the powder which pushes the bullet out of the casing into the barrel. But it doesn't fit in the barrel right right so it needs it builds up a lot of pressure to push it out. And that's what gets the velocity going once it exits the barrel but when you're using fucking break liner it's not an tight fit. No not at all and so. That's why you would need extra powder to push it out because you don't you. Don't build up any pressure in especially when you consider that there wasn't a primer with any of these that he literally took the base off of each round before he put it in which i would have used a model rocket. Engine igniter interesting. You know when. I was looking at this the plans that i saw for a twenty two. Zip gun yeah. They said that a five point eight millimeter drill bit. We'll get you. The perfect fit for it in the plane slid i saw but if he didn't do that with the brake line it's gonna be open. He said i'm not sure what the circumference i'm one of those be. I should look that up. I don't either for people who don't know a primer on. A bullet is on the shotgun. Shell right there. It's right in the middle. Sweat is struck in ignites the powder on the inside yeah. It's a chemical reaction from the pressure that causes the ignition of primer and then the primer when it fires up it lights the powder but with this like we said with the construct of that bond it was literally the electrical wire fed right into where the gunpowder is. Yes so you wouldn't need or you would act as a primer. you could also say exactly which Interestingly that's also from my research. I found that's also how they would send off quite a few heavy artillery shells is through electric. Yeah right Yeah so heavy. Are some of the heavy artillery the medium and light artillery will have fully contained shells. You know look like giant. You know rifle rounds But the you get bigger where you you just can't build a case big enough to hold all that shit and it would. Yeah exactly in. You were saying it's about twenty pounds of powder in for heavy round. Yes so the big guns on on the old battleships yeah. They were huge bags of gunpowder that they would so they would. They would low the the shell into the breech and then they would load one to three different bags of powder to a lot of gunpowder. Well those and the shells weighed is much is volkswagen. Yep and they guess you those over the horizon wow so yeah but Yeah and you look at that in lakewood or saying for again people. Who don't know that much about ballistics. Gunpowder in a bullet is measured ingredients in grains. I had to look this up when i was doing mathematical conversions. Yeah between the shotgun shell and twenty two shell. Yeah there are seven thousand greens in a pound k. So in a twenty pound bag. You're looking at one hundred and forty thousand grades out and in the typical twenty two show. You're looking at forty grapes powder and a well that in a typical twenty two long shell right which i assume us because those are more common then at twenty two short yeah i would say the longs our lungs and long rifles are easier to come by generally speaking but they're none of it's hard. It's not hard to get any of it. Let's just the sporting goods store and get it. It's not it's not difficult. Yeah gladstone back in the eighties. You could just go to the hardware store a lot of them. Had you know sure. Why isn't that's the same way. With the twelve gauges to there wasn't a lot of questions asked like we were saying. Nobody's gonna add question. Yeah see we're going after and that is very very important when you're looking at building something that is a bomb or a zip gun. Bond is commonality because the more common the stuff is the less. They're going to be able to trace the ingredients that are left. But so here's the weird thing. Though is she could just by the components you can buy a case can of smokeless powder and and bullets of whatever caliber you want and not twenty two. I take that back. You probably cannot by just twenty two slugs because nobody reloaded it. Because you can't wouldn't totally worth it but you can't you can't reuse the brass very true. Yeah i came across quite a few forums. Doubt reloading melodic. Emo when i was looking through this stuff. I've done a lot of it. Two years ago interest dan. I'm sure quite a few people here have to. They got so many hunters in this area. Yeah if you're going to shoot any quantity at all you gotta you gotta reload But yeah i mean. I would assume even in new york city. But they're stricter gun laws. They wouldn't ask a lot of questions even back then. Know the the questions are asked about the weapons. Not about munition. Oh yeah you just had to be of age and back you know back in the eighties. That was you know. I don't even know if there was an age restriction on ammo purchases. Probably not in. That just reminds me of like my dad telling me stories about back then when he could drink when he was eighteen to. Yeah it's just so in. This case is just one of its more questions the more you look at it then really anything. Yeah very much so And you know the the handmade nature of the devices make it so you know if you're using common materials. How detract that shit down. Oh exactly and Interesting with this. A lot of people have heard of the anarchist's cookbook. By william powell de details. A lot of these types of weapons and how to make them yeah. It's not out of the realm of possibility that whoever did this could've actually learned from powell's primary sources which he got from the us combat bookshelves at the new york public library. Did they even go to see who check those out. I'm sure they probably didn't but there's that and then there's you know all these that's one thing i needed to look at whether some of these other field manuals on how to make this stuff work included in that. Us combat a shop. Some much of that now including the arcus cookbook. You can find just as a pdf right. A google search but yeah oh and another thing that also kind might feed into the The extortion idea. Joan was a officer on a community board in her area. Brooklyn that was essentially a conglomeration of government entities quasi-government entities like nonprofits and. She was actually running for the vp of that and she was slated by people thought she was going to win. Before all this hap- i mean not saying that her character would make her amenable to that because by all accounts she was not that way in fact the principal. Who worked with said. She lived a very sheltered. Life was her work is worker. But you know when you're in that sort of area there's always the possibility that there's a rival or that somebody is looking to get dirt on you right so possibility man extortion. Yeah i mean it makes a lot of sense it makes sense of. It is a way that these people could be connected that they just they hint seen. Or what have you. But yeah i mean. I think it's totally wrong. Have treated the kipps there at the very least wherever was a better suspect in them. Yeah yeah well we gotta do a better job but training up our investigators and detectives and prosecutors and better of incentivizing the right things with these people in ways to Make sure that these cognitive biases don't have see no. I'm not trying to you know. Monday morning quarterback the hell out of that or anything you know. Hindsight is twenty twenty. But i think it's not out of line to ask them to learn from these sorts of mistakes too. Well yeah but then you you. The problem is if they don't have the right attitude they're gonna say what mistake i was right. We just couldn't prove it and even showing them all the evidence that says they weren't right. They'll still stick to exactly. Yeah that is the weirdest serial bombing case in. us history. i think arguably at early the most destructive by any means not terrorizing by any means. But i and you're talking about somebody who didn't leave any sort of clue as to a demand. Yon maybe that one Note in joan kip. Yeah you know and usually got guys like the unabomber who leave a full manifesto right. Can't shut them up. Yeah yeah and. That's one thing that actually stephen or stephen wavering did was right manifesto. It was like two hundred and fifty pages in rambling but it had nothing to do with bombings so could be connected to nabi. We may never know he up. That that's the likely case. I would bet so as well. It is a fair fair assessment. All right then. Thank you sir once more for exhaustive research my pleasure everybody night

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S16: New Year, New Me: Solved Cold Case Disappearances

Parcast Presents

36:36 min | 3 months ago

S16: New Year, New Me: Solved Cold Case Disappearances

"Hi it's kate from podcast network one of the most challenging things about cold cases. Is that friends and family are left. Not knowing what happened to their loved one but every once in a while seemingly out of nowhere something miraculous happens if you enjoy this episode of the top. Ten solved cold case disappearance is follow the hit podcast crime countdown every week. Crime countdown highlights ten fascinating stories of history's most engaging and settling crimes. New episodes air every monday. Listen free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. One of the reasons people love true crime stories especially cold cases like decades cold is. We have a desire to solve them. We look through the clues and thank. Hey maybe i could be the one to figure that one out tag on the element of someone just vanishing and you've got double the lack of resolution and that can be maddening. You don't know if they've been taken murdered or if they simply walked away from their lives and you want answers today we've got them. We're counting down cases where after decades. We finally know what happened and the family has some sort of closure. It's the top ten solved cold-case disappearances he all you weirdos. Welcome to crime countdown. Spotify original from podcast. I'm ash and i'm alina. Every week will highlight ten. Fascinating stories of history's most engaging and unsettling crimes all picked by the park cast research. God this episode. We are counting down the top ten solved cold case disappearance. This is amazing. Because when it comes to closure i need it. A craven I desire it necessary cold cases stress. Me oh i know. I feel like i just have a loop of cold case constantly going through my head that i need to solve with you. Yes with with you together. We will solve by myself. We're gonna do it yourself and you know what the worst kinds are. The ones like Ian brady and myra hindley Like we know they did it. Yeah but they refuse to give a grieving family closure to locate their murder child. It's awful because like keith bennett. On saddleworth more in ian just loved going to his grave just withholding exactly where he is so messed up and it drives me nuts but what drives me even more nuts is when people falsely confess to a cold case and really lucas. We're looking at you. Yeah it gets everybody up in a tizzy and then it just leads nowhere. I feel like it happens all the time. Like you said that. Walsh case. And then like the jon benet ramsey case s one was so frustrated it is because especially in cases where children are involved like those cases people take any confession and it. Just i think they're just gonna take it as okay. This is the end of the part of the grieving process. Just unknown and we can finally move onto like properly mourn but then it just flips around in. That person was lying. I know it's so sad. It's horrible but the good news here is that all these cases are solved. Sadly there's many disappearance cases. These ones all went cold for over twenty years until they were finally answers. Elena will be talking about five solved cold cases and so ally but neither knows what kind of closure will bring into the table. Today co falilat. So let's start the countdown. If you dear listener have big plans to start or grow a business. Consider moving to ohio where the taxes are low and the quality of life is high. There's a highly skilled and growing workforce a low cost of living and a thriving community for businesses and employees because ohio isn't built for followers. Ohio is building. Four leaders dare to learn. More at ohio is for leaders dot com. This episode is brought to you by carmax at carmax. The best way to buy a car is your way. Choose from over. Fifty thousand tarmac certified vehicles at carmax dot com and buy online or in store with curbside pickup and home delivery in select markets. Get all the details today. At carmax dot com. This episode is brought to you by carmax at carmax. The best way to buy a car is your way. Choose from over. Fifty thousand carmax certified vehicles at carmax dot com and buy online or in store with curbside pickup and home delivery in select. Get all the details today at carmax dot com all start us off with number ten jaycee lee dugard who went missing from south lake. Tahoe california for eighteen years before being found alive yay jaycee dugard was kidnapped in nineteen ninety one when she was eleven. Can you imagine a baby. You're levin years old. No she was held captive in the backyard of phillip and nancy garrido there. She was assaulted. Repeatedly gave birth to two daughters and the number of miss chances to rescue her. Sooner are infuriated. I've looked at this before and it's horrible. This is a total system failure. It is so in. June nineteen ninety-one jaycee was kidnapped by phillip and nancy. Garrido from a bus stop this bus. Stop fifteen hundred feet from her house. Why didn't even know it was that close. This is why. I don't ever want my kids going on a bus eleo. There's too many cases of this. It scares the crap out of her stepfather. Carl this breaks. My heart saw the kidnapping from his garage and chased the couple's van on his bike but lost them. I didn't know that either is heart-wrenching. I'm like i've looked into this case. And it's so frustrating. Any of us saying well. He called the police immediately. Of course this is my worst nightmare. This is every parent's worst nightmare. Phillip garrido was a convicted sex offender in parole agents visited his home roughly sixty times. So you're probably like a what. Why didn't they find her well. They never once checked the backyard area. I'm pretty sure they're supposed to like check the whole property. I would assume that is shameful. It really is because if you see photos of the backyard area you check that a ha you would have been like What's happening then. I need to look back there. Mr fill in the reason for that is dugard was kept back there in a maze of tents and sheds was like a maze. You'd be like what is happening like there. Nothing good t nothing. Wholesome and a neighbor had even told authorities that she was seeing kids in the backyard in august. Two thousand and nine at his own parole hearing phillip garrido showed up with j. c. and the two children. She gave birth to right right. Dugard gave a fake name but burrito actually admitted the whole thing is parole hearing who she was what they'd done and both garrido's were arrested immediately. Jc was free. I'm so thankful obviously that that happened but it's like i wonder what caused him to break. That's the to. it's so strange. Like he suddenly was just like well. The jig is up. yeah and then. It's just like so sudden bear arrested. She's free after eighteen years. Nine at number is william bolt back in november nineteen ninety seven. William left a nightclub alone just before midnight. He didn't seem intoxicated but he also didn't return home. Twenty two years later his body was found with the help of google earth. That's the spookiest thing i've ever heard of my life. Isn't that so scary. I used to go on that all the time when i was little and just like cruise through neighborhoods. I still go on google earth. Oh wow maybe. I'll find some. Maybe so william called his girlfriend when he left a nightclub around eleven pm near palm beach florida and that was the last anyone ever heard from him. He just like up in vanished. That's weird. it is. It's not even that late. No eleven is an early time to leave. 'cause you'd think to a amer something he's coming out you're like oh we kind of good happens then Well twenty two years later in two thousand nineteen. Someone was looking on. Google earth at moltes home and noticed submerged car in a pond. That's terrify the most terrifying thing ever so the guy instead of calling. The police took screen shots and sent them to someone who still lives in the neighborhood. That's a good idea. it's like now it's along with other neighbors and a drone. They got a clear view of the pond and they could see the car. I'm wondering too when he was going through this if he was just like is that is that a car merged he'd be like now. My eyes are played like. That's just something weird i know. He probably like zoomed way in. And yes indeed that are so authorities dredged up a car inside were williams remain all known. I know unfortunately when he disappeared. The houses around the pond actually weren't built yet. Oh and neither was the guardrail. That was around the ponds. Oh so the sheriff's department said it appeared that he lost control of his car and ran into the water but it had simply been too long to know for sure what actually happened. That makes me so sad. I know he just got in a car accident on the way home. I know as no eight number eight on our countdown of the top ten solved cold-case disappearances also missing for twenty. Two years is wanda. jean maze. Wanda was reported missing by her aunt and uncle in the early morning hours of may twelfth nineteen eighty six when they found their guest room. Empty in the window apparently broken from the inside. No no no no. No no hate that from the inside. No that's never a good thing. It's not so wonder was actually twenty-seven years old when she disappeared in one thousand nine hundred six and an empty canoe and her nightgown were both found covered in blood behind the family's home in guntur spill lake which is no good. No definitely not not a good thing in october. Two thousand and three a hiker discovered human bones at the bottom of a one hundred fifty foot cliff. Approximately two miles from the family's home so already this is not looking. Yeah this is looking actually horrible. The worst it can look creatively. Five years later in two thousand and eight the fbi's dna lab in quantico virginia was finally able to identify these remains as one gene may slow. So what happened. I don't know you did wanna know. I would like to. I bet everybody wants to now. Tell them we'll wanda had suffered from a chemical imbalance and it was determined that she willingly walked away from her aunt and uncle's house and fell over the cliff by accident. No isn't a huge bummer. But like no matter what that would have been a bummer ending but like But why we're her clothes all bloody and behind the house because she broke the window from the inside. Oh yeah so she probably cut herself. Oh man i know this is horrible. It's real sad. Ya hope you guys are having a good time seven at number seven this week. Is gabriel niki. Gabriel was a married father of two in australia and on january twenty first nineteen eighty seven. His family expected him home for lunch but he never came twenty three years later and two weeks before he could have been declared dead. A police officer tracked him down two weeks before he would have been legally considered dead dead man walking. That's unbelievable nuts. Someone gabriel. i went missing. His car was found burned on the side of the road. That's ominous definitely ominous. People were like hoping for the best. I'm hoping yeah not expecting the best meant to say. Is that what you meant. Is that tis. So the case went cold. Unfortunately an officer decided to check medicare records found gabriel and he was suffering from this rare type of that. A races a huge portion. From your memory. That is a movie. it's a straight up movie and this could have been caused from the car accident that he had and the burned car. Gabriel didn't remember his life at all he'd been using a pseudonym for work. He worked odd jobs like on fishing boats and construction sites and the police officer slowly started giving him photographs of his family and letters that they'd written him and he started to remember them in his old life. He was michelle. Tanner from full house. Except for a lot longer had very special episode when she fell off a horse. Yes i remember that. But that is gabriel. That was one day. This was twenty three years. I don't know the similarities are astounding. Ankeny well they reunited him with his family and more memories came back so i think they let me ever after. Thank you for giving me that one. I feel like need. We need that one. Six also on our list at number six jacob wetter wetering who went missing in october. Nineteen eighty nine. Are you ready to take it way back down. From gabriel. no. I was happy after that one. I'm sorry but we're going there. Thanks so much. Eleven year old jacob wetter lang was riding his bike on a rural road outside minneapolis when he was abducted by masked gunmen. It would take twenty seven years to find out the truth. I feel like hadn't tire thing is terrifying. But also the fact that he was masked is even scarier masked gunmen yet is taking an eleven year old boy off his bike. That's like the worst horror movie. That is straight up nightmare. Straight up. nightmare will hundreds if not thousands of volunteers showed up to help search for jacob. I mean it was huge huge. The fbi interviewed hundreds of people as part of the investigation. Danny james heinrich was an early suspect though but he maintained his innocence of course and at the time there was not enough evidence to point directly to him. But don't worry there will be in two thousand fifteen heinrich got arrested for child. Pornography does concede x. Gusting garbage person Enduring the trial the next year. He confessed to sexually assaulting and killing jacob. Oh no he killed and buried jacob in a nearby shallow grave in nineteen eighty nine but a year later. He noticed that the boys red jacket was visible like where he had buried him and it took him a year to notice that. I don't know if he just didn't bury him properly the first time or if like shit you know he suddenly was rising to the surface a little bit. Oh my god well. So he moved the body and reburied it so a year later he went back and was still tampering. An that means he must have been going back like at least on some amount of occasions. Make sure nothing was wrong. Yeah because he wasn't just like on the of the road right. You know like he had to go back to this location. That's so disgusting and so dark well. Authorities recovered and positively. I d jacobs remains in two thousand and sixteen which. I remember when that happened. It was huge like four years ago on a long time ago at all when he thinks so far. I mean wow so. Jacob is a real rough on on hurts my soul. I feel like you've got a lot of the rough one. I did because jc is also like a riddick so glad that she was in three but like eighteen years of what she went through. Yeah the story. Yeah it really is. I'm glad gabriel is in there. I needed gabriel. I'm real glad y'all needed gabriel. But i'm excited to see what's coming up. A couple of these. I had no idea about this. Episode is brought to you by tarmacs. Tarmacs at carmax. The best way to buy a car is your way whether you're an online shopper. Or an in-person kind of person carmax. Has you covered. Choose from over. Fifty thousand tarmac certified vehicles at carmax dot com. Check out three sixty degree views. Research compare with ratings and reviews schedule a trade and appraisal and apply for financing all from the comfort of home. And when you found the right car for you you can buy online or in store with curbside pickup and home delivery in select markets. Carmax the way it should be get all the details and start the search for your next car today. At carmax dot com. Let's take a quick break and visit. Oh hi where. The taxes are low and the quality of life is high lake. You can actually afford to buy a house. Hi we're talking zero percent tax on state. Corporate income indian vestments and good sold out of state. There's also a highly skilled growing workforce because ohio isn't built for followers. Ohio is building for leaders. Dare to learn. More at ohio is for leaders. Dot com All right let's jump back in with number five on our countdown of solved. Cold case disappearances starting off the second half of our list is japanese world war two soldier so h. e. koi so she was stationed in guam. When american forces captured the island in one thousand nine hundred eighty four so chief fled into the jungle with nine other japanese soldiers over the years. Some moved away and some passed away but soichi stayed hidden for decades so cheesy dude. This one is wild. I'm excited are you interested. So at the time japanese soldiers believed surrendering was just not an option. And that's what caused so aichi and his fellow soldiers just to flee into the wilderness. Woo i know the soldiers went to extreme lengths to be detected. They raced their footprints and they built hiding places for themselves. Soichi lived for many years in a cave near a waterfall and camouflage the opening of the cave with bamboo. Wow soichi this is like the longest episode of like naked. And just thinking. I was like this is like an episode of alone. Yeah or survivor. Yeah all of those. So many seasons of survivor packed into one life. Yeah but it's like what does he get in the end. Let's find out. He lived off small animals that he could capture in the jungle which sometimes included ills and venomous toads. Damn did he just like suck. The i'm to say one. How did he live in to. How did he know how to not get the venom because he soy cheese so gee he knows all he does. He was completely alone for the last eight years that he was out there. Wow because his last two fellow soldiers actually died in a flood in nineteen sixty four. Can you imagine how devastating that would be. No 'cause even win them for so many years. Yeah and you're out there in the wilderness and suddenly for eight years. You're alone by yourself. Just eating venomous towed siebel on naked. Afraid can't handle it for ten days. Eight year. I wouldn't handle it for a day. I wouldn't handle it for at all hours. I just wouldn't do it ever while. Soichi finally was found in january. Nineteen seventy two twenty eight years later and he was found by two fishermen that were like setting up traps in the wilderness. So cheap didn't know that the war had ended god so this whole time. That's the other thing he's like afraid because he's in the wilderness but he also thinks that the worst deal so he's on like high alert this whole time to. Yeah wow well. He was eventually able to relay his story. And he went back to japan and he was married by the end of that year nineteen seventy-two and he lived into his eighties. Get it so. She loves soy cheap. I really do have all the happy. Glad for landing at number four. This week is catherine and sheila lyon on march. Twenty fifth nineteen seventy-five. The lion sisters aged ten and twelve disappeared after going shopping. A suburb of washington. Dc in two thousand and fifteen. A man named lloyd welch confessed that he and his family. What's kidnapped and killed the girls but trusting. His every word hasn't quite given the case foreclosure he and his family. I have one question here. Are you the firefly family from devils reach l. My god. I literally was going to say i was going to interrupt you and be like is this devils reject is this the house of thousand corpses. What is happening here something horrible. This is really gross. So welsh who was only eighteen in one thousand nine seventy five. A baby admitted he participated in the abduction of catherine and sheila line. So he's a garbage person but told detectives and his lawyers argued in court that he didn't sexually assault or kill the girls he just abducted just a ducted them then. He doesn't know what happened after that. So you're fine makes sense in one thousand nine hundred seventy five witnesses said they saw the girls speaking to an older man and whilst said he'd actually seen the two girls leave with that older man. I wonder if it was like his dad or some. Yeah this is so confusing right stand. It detectives believe. Welsh was just trying to get the reward money which was nine thousand dollars. I hope he didn't get it. I hope he didn't in two thousand and thirteen cold case. Detective noticed a suspect. Sketch from the case looked weirdly similar to lloyd. Welches mugshot from nineteen seventy seven. A strange coincidence totally coincidence nothing to see here. Nope not at all in two thousand and thirteen the same year. Welsh was already in jail for molesting a minor. You yeah in. He confessed to kidnapping but not to murder. He's really like hanging his hat on that kidnapping. I like that. He's just like checking things off. he's like. I didn't kill them but i did do. This just keeps being like. I only kidnapped them. That's all what's the big deal. I'm already in jail anyway. I only took them from their loved. Ones i don't understand why everyone's upset i hate. This is the worst. I wanna kick him so he said. I kidnap them to them and he never the location of the bodies ever never in two thousand and seventeen. Lloyd welsh pled guilty to two counts of first degree felony murder in the case so he did so all of a sudden he's like oh just kidding finally tell the truth now. According to the washington post's authorities have said other participants in the murders are dead or their roles could not be proven that so disappointing. I wanna know everybody. That was responsible so dark. Yeah the thought of a family kidnapping these two like baby girls. Because you would never expect that it's gross. Yeah three number three on our countdown of solved. Cold-case disappearances is pamela jackson and cheryl miller sherrell and pamela. Were just seventeen living in south dakota and headed to a party when they went missing in nineteen seventy one. A drought in september. Two thousand thirteen reveals their car in a creek next to the site of the party. No one looked there. I guess not twenty thirteen. There's a creek next to the last place they were and they were like. Nah man announce fine. They're in there while while. Sherrell and pamela were following behind another set of friends in a separate car when their car just seemingly vanished. You know how that happens right. Cars do do that a lot all the time. They've been should say there. I'm sorry what well they weren't big partyer so their friends assumed that they just changed their minds and turned around but then they weren't seen or heard from see. I was going to be like well. Why didn't you just text him. And then i was like it was nineteen seventy exactly so answered my question no cellphones. Only the big zack. Morris ones and. I don't even think nope not seventy one. The area was searched following their disappearance but no sign of them or their car was found because they didn't look in the greek. Well then guess what happened. What happened. a flood followed by a major drought in unearth. The tires of cheryl's car below layers of gravel that so creepy as in that. So that's why it was like really concealed week so they came to the conclusion that they had a car accident and had gone off the gravel road and hit the creek. Oh that's so sad. It gets worse. The car was still in third gear and there was clear damage to one tire. The keys were in the ignition and the lights were toggled to the on position. Ooh so they obviously really trying to get out. I think oh gross. you know. sheryl's purse and belongings. Were also still in the car and they were in relatively good shape. Wow isn't that weird for being in water. That's very weird. I know no trace of alcohol was involved at all. So that's crazy. They just like really had a car accident. Bad exactly but in two thousand seven a man was indicted for killing the girls with a recorded jailhouse confession. What's yeah. He said that he did this when obviously he didn't. And it turned out to have been faked by another inmate That sucks but it also. Doesn't it all sucks. Everything sucks because the parents of these girls thought that they were murdered. Yeah and they're like. Oh my goodness but then it turns out that they got in a brutal car accident. Yeah it's like. They went from thinking they were in a brutal car accident to thinking they were murdered and then back to a brutal car accidents actually. There's no winning. there's not all right. we're taking some dark turned down this on. This one is gnarly. I don't know when it first started. I was like oh this is going to be wonderful are solved then. I forgot that solved doesn't mean that everyone's alive and in the end it just means we know what happens. Crime countdown is not rainbows. Totally forgot about that. Okay that's on me egg on my face. Is there anything that you're expecting to see. Honestly no. Because i was trying to wrack my brain to think of cold cases that have been solved and i knew like jacob wetter laying. I knew that one. I knew jaycee dugard but other than that. I was kind of like our own. Yeah i have no idea what yours could be well. I can't tell you until the end. Let's do it. This episode is brought to you by tarmacs at carmax. The best way to buy a car is your way whether you're an online shopper. Or an in person. Kind of person carmax. Has you covered. Choose from over. Fifty thousand tarmac certified vehicles at carmax dot com check out three sixty degree views research and compare with ratings and reviews schedule a trade an appraisal and apply for financing all from the comfort of home. And when you found the right car for you you can buy online or in store with curbside pickup and home delivery and select markets karma. That's the way it should be. Get all the details and start the search for your next car today. At carfax dot com. This episode is brought to you by tapeh. Kalt with tapeh call. You can record. Incoming and outgoing calls with tap of a button. Typical offers crystal clear recording quality. Ninety nine percent accurate call transcriptions and seamless sharing with your favorite apps. So you won't miss a word download. Typical today to we're down to the final two spots on our countdown of salt cold case disappearance at number two is new c. n. johnson. I like that name. It's a cute name. In nineteen sixty one lucian was living in surrey british columbia with her husband marvin and their two children and one day disappeared. It was hounding really cute up until then and then boom but her husband didn't report her missing until may nineteen sixty five because he killed her. But get this. What in two thousand thirteen her daughter. Linda found lucy living in alaska. We so he didn't do no. You didn't yeah because marvin waited for. Oh i don't know years before boarding lucy's disappearance. The case was initially treated as a homicide just like us. I was like oh murderer. Which can you blame anybody no. I don't even blame myself. The guy waits for years full suss. What's up marvin. That's a little weird. I don't know the family's yard was excavated as part of the investigation but nothing was ever found because she was alive somewhere. No that sucks for marvin. And the kid's certainly does in june. Two thousand and thirteen lucy's disappearance was featured as a cold case on. Tv news her daughter. Linda placed advertisements in local newspapers. Which like all well. Linda received a reply from a woman. Living in alaska who recognize the photo of lucy as her own mother. Okay so. Linda has a sister so linda has a half sister. What's now. Lucy was alive and living in alaska. Linda gone on a plane to go see her mother for the first time in fifty two years so she essentially lived her entire life without her mom a literal entire life without her mother. Is there a reason. My lucy just like dipped and having no idea that her mother was alive this entire time. Well she obviously thought she was dead. What's so she described this week. Long reunion house awkward at first overall very emotional. I would think which i think we can all make sense. That makes sense adds up. Those are two adjectives. i would use. Linda asked her mother which good for her point blank. Why she left her children and moved to alaska she was like on. What was that about. Yeah what you do in for fifty two year again. Why did you dip while. Lucy explained that her husband. Marvin was abusive and a cheater. So she left him with her children. I'm sorry that happened to you. Lucy but the marlene the kids with him. I'm sorry if your husband is abusive you leave your children with him and moved to alaska and he's a cheater so i just left him and i left my kids like why didn't you just take us in the middle of the night law. You didn't feel like. I don't know. Contact your kids at any point in fifty two years very confusing now. She says she had come back for her kids once but marvin wouldn't let her have them. Okay i'm sorry but thinking back once when she says. I came back once in fifty two years lucy to the nail for those kit kat well. Linda had to tell her mother that her first son linda's brother had passed away. But lynda and lucy stayed in each other's lives which i give. Linda is could person yeah. I give her a lot of credit snaps to linda linda. This one goes out to linda one. And that brings us to number one on our countdown of the top ten solved cold case disappearances pacino risotto march nineteen forty eight pacino. Risotto walked out of his office and a small sicilian town and he stopped briefly. Chat outside a bar on the main street and then he walked into the night and sixty years later. They found his body so few years. Little bit pacheco. Zota was a union leader who had sided with local farm laborers and a confrontation with the mafia. You know what. I'm just gonna say here. You would just always want to side with the mafia just to cover your just pretend. Cover your own boot. Cover that booty. So he lived in the town of corleones like the fictional crime family in the godfather. Cute right so. The town was filled with leaders of the sicilian mafia and others who were fighting to oppose the mafia. So a lot of fighting lots of fighting lots of mafia. I'm scared risotto's family and union co workers campaigned for years to locate risotto's remains and they finally were sixty years later in two thousand nine. Wow isn't that nut exte- years that's a long time. Yeah his remains were found in a remote area just outside corley on and dna confirmed it was his remains in two thousand twelve and he was given a proper burial. Then which the italian president attended. Wow rosado aac deal one. Union leader stated. The mafia wanted to send a symbolic message not only were. They killing cheetah risotto. But they were making him vanish a racing him who you know what. They didn't a chilled me to my bone. I know it's so sad. His state funeral was a symbolic message. Back to the mafia though they didn't succeed even after all those years i i know. I don't know if i'd go sending messages to. Wow i had no idea about that last one number one never heard of that. I know and you would think that something you probably would have heard sixty year. That belongs at number one absolutely does i can't think of anything else. To put their sixty years. I would say so in lucian johnson. I'm realm odd. What is disappeared for fifty two years. I mean i have to say that. I'm happy for linda that she got to finally have a relationship with her. But it's like yeah good for her hand and then all these random like cars going into bodies of water. I know i have to drive home after this. And i'm like oh crap. I don't think by a body of water do. Oh yeah you do. There's guardrail be careful. Thank you because it's twenty two years you're just hanging onto their no. No we'll make sure you look there. If anything happens i will. Don't worry thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with another great episode. Remember follow crime countdown on spotify to get a brand new episode delivered. Every week you can find all episodes of crime countdown and all other parkas shows for free on spotify. Spotify has all your favorite music and podcasts. All in one place. They're making it easier to listen to whatever you want to hear for free on your phone computer or smart speaker and if he can't get enough of these creepy crimes check out our after. Crime countdown podcast. Playlist on spotify where we've handpicked even more episodes about this week stories that we think you'll enjoy and if you like the show follow at parkas cast on facebook and instagram and at parkas network on twitter. And if you like us which. I think you do 'cause you're still here. Hello hey you can follow our other. Podcast morbid on instagram at morbid podcast and on twitter at a morbid podcast. And you can listen wherever you listen to podcasts. Lou we you keep it weird till next monday guys. Please do it. Five by crime. Countdown is a spotify. Original from cast it is executive produced by max cutler. Sound design by kristen. Nassir vado with associate sound design by kevin mcalpine produced by john cohen and associate produced by jonathan ratliff fact checking by kara macaroni. Lean research by ambika era j. Ko and mickey taylor crime. Count downstairs kelly and elena cart.

Carmax gabriel ohio soichi Soichi Ian brady myra hindley keith bennett jon benet ramsey falilat jaycee lee dugard nancy garrido Phillip garrido Mr fill phillip garrido william bolt jaycee dugard phillip
Episode 175

Learn Astrology with Mary English

28:12 min | 1 year ago

Episode 175

"We're back to Leonard Tomiichi. With mining's Mary English she can farm at. Www DOT dot com marriage ko UK astrologer hand to dominate. In this a day early. 'cause I'm going to be busy doing something with some heavy paths and our originally was going to do a podcast. About how your ascendant? The relationship between your sentence you some sign and depending on what side the ascendant is whether or not it has an effect on your sunset. My second my son's on don't make an SBA to my chuck was my sending to see a Muslim some spicy. But I have noticed. People sometimes heavily sent in the sense on Scorpio tour even Aquarius and and that's a bit of a conflict full event. So I thought all I need to have some charts to demonstrate the ascendant not really fitting with some sunshine and a little bit sidetracked and a so Change the podcast slightly. All America changing bed map. I have three charts today. And they're particularly sad charts because when you're trying to find an exalted something. I was looking for criminals. Maybe that God `send into some sign not in a particular aspect to us it just meant that squares and cutting social show the three charts from going to share with you today. I'm particularly happy. Charles and their three child killers sounds horrible Disney to poke awesomeness and and I suppose the only reason I'm including this because we do have that birth data and the birthdate reasonably accurate and so the fest charts. I'm GONNA show you and recommend if you want to understand a child's pay more are linked to a youtube video which is worth listen. It's just so now to make the chart more understandable and this particular person is cool. Beverley Amit and she was a nurse in hospital and she killed a number of children and Caused a number of other children to have near Death Experiences Jason. With insulin which isn't nice and the link to the Youtube video is about the the pessimism selves and that children were involved because this happened in one thousand nine hundred ninety one and since then Some of the children involved awkward enough so they went to share some nations. And that's the best athletes so so his head shot so this is Beverley Allitt and she was sent to prison meditation getting let off and she's in a psychiatric prison now and there isn't anything that is particularly look at each other. Oh abso- competitor is child but because this focused at this point in the sun sign not really gelling. I'd say this classic example of that because here we have somebody with sunshine. Lieber assignment associate is involved in anything you know. It's the sign of legality. It's the sign of balance so sunshine sleep but her cendant is Scorpio and we know scope. You can feel things a lot more deeply than people out on the same. Scorpio is more lights go. Positive Children of however Scorpio can be more obsessed or obsessive and Ms It has a Scorpio sentiment and Macri. Exactly Khun jump descent. Now because he's in a different from his son sign a cover them cost above. What I've Read East pocos seventy if your sense of Macquarie. Tom said this feels sudden. Sign is no annual earnings. Must've it is fun a million times twelve hundred tattoo on my head if you met with indifference on present signed you need to be very aware of the difference between those two signs as sleepers. Ito S Sunny island nor do decision McAfee but Scorpius deep more community sign and a mccrea's they're not in the same census sometime and she was given to lying off sheet after she never confessed to any of the killings. And if you watch the videos I'm GonNa take the details thing you if you're interested And and I also want to sort of investigate. A bit with these charts. What was it that made the people concerned interested to my word but capable of killing children. Not something that comes naturally now. Miss Alice Child has a walkaway yield on a cup of Joe. I think he's upset. Twenty something who have you tell you? A yacht is covered yet. Twenty-five talking about and she's got the though from Saturn's not deplete choices pundits is isn't it and she has Neptune in the first house and invest as she was quite popular nurse. Pushtun getting I'm and I think I think that would worry muse. Well if I was working with this person and they were and then is in Pisces. In the faith why would I be worried about? Because when the municipal noon not negative thing but the moon wants to be recognized the movies happy in the in the fourth but when the Fed has to be something dramatic a going on and the mood is you can see opposite Mars. So you know she's quite capable of killing malls is about action. Aggression in Jaffa isn't aggressive agenda ways. But the moon to Moslems each I think a little bit about a childhood wasn't particularly tool matic not the death exams initiate the interview in the in the program a neighbor of hers and she was a child minded. Fold mix educator now the dates for the challenges conceal. The dates are calling. The Trans is on the outside and the date. She committed the first murder. Because you know what was it. The fish does to even contemplate this and Muslim. You knew it now. In her eighth seventy eight this about sex death chunk of planet defended square has sun sign. Johnson has since I'm eleven degrees in that Choon and you're discontent By Way and they all shooting UNIS- Twelve fifty tweets yes so therefore we get squared as uncensored yet. Nazi kinda glaring at Sunshine. And a Sonny's Hayden twelve. So she never confessed. She kept herself to social squad Beige me very popular in crippled Matt of me and She has a cluster plazas. She's got a Pluto Union as conjunction. She's about sixty so six years. The sixers she's got the Pluto even as conjunction Jupiter's in that makes martyrs part of it Pluto's opposition to the moon is that right in the aspect is it so is opposition Mars opposition to Patel position. Could tell ya begins to be able to two minutes. So the million planets had charged six cent dependent choice Pluto Pluto's making an opposition to the main the main savvy fail despite deep change transformation in the sign of the gun. Choose NASCAR but pieces of big transformational planet makes big big big big big second. Mary big changes this He. The Moon isn't opposite. Eunice think urine us is is conjunction. Cheering saying yes the out of degree. I served active sign was Unisys in Lebron Pluto. Visit Berko says she's just at the end of that. Pluto you in conjuncture from the sixty so it must have been declining for CD seven so it must have been entered in sixty seven sixty eight c seven and the sun is opposition. True Node. Yeah and as your two. It's very erratic energy and a child and they think she possibly at Manchester by Proxy Syndrome. That she likes the drama of the near death experiences of her patience that she usually trying to kill but obviously the crash team at coming because only lawns went off lover but she unfortunate confessed. Mitch's traumatic full of the pension is quite close to Chart Service. E solely carbon is in the fifth this well and that's the we did he us as Jong Galeb. That's in the sign of aries and yet constant averaged at the Medicine Pisces. And so impresses the sign of martyrdom worries me from us go the other day that she committed I crime. Pluto has now made its way all the way from her eleven tasks into fast house in the sinus school because she wasn't booming region. That guy should take a long time. And it's coming up towards Neptune which is classmate twenty. Four degrees scope here. Paternity Transit is twenty seven yet content semi coats some signatures. They're sets doing sesame. Chances One degree Aquarius cygnus. Subtle opposition to her Sutton is opposite hammock. Me One of the police interviews. She the first one she occupy her case in the Second. Lots of interview. She says no common. Cb McQueen scooby activity do but look mccrea's in twelve. It's not in the first hidden in the twelve yen is twice. I should have scored really weird way of thinking. I mean. You can't be particularly rational and want to kill children to be worked is it Ms Amat's chart and the video cassette if you want to learn a little bit more about the case itself and what happened is time ago so complicated get jobs now the next set at these If you're my age will no longer. These two people are Indian Ian Brady. They would chocolate. Is they killed five or six people children. Because obviously if you're going to kill someone you want to make sure that they're not bigger than you and children owns a major so first time. We're going to go through these quickly because it's not happy subjects. Do Excuse me and it goes. Copious sentiment found fascinating this brady. He's pointed to thirty eight. Both of these people dead now. Good and he sculpt so we need pay ten to twelfth has nope because that's the signature of anybody Necessarily being nasty anyway. The twelve has hidden is hidden and it can indicate Juventus the twelfth some sort of mental illness you know the sudden inma- savage charts and mercury are located in the twelfth so She hid herself basically. She hid behind this facade of being this wonderful nurse and the Moon in the fifth is happy with any. Mr Reidy has toured ascendant so it was down in the way of his base unison. Twelve and I will go around but the interesting interesting the room what. I'll tell you when I get towards the sentence son in Cancun in the eighth set of date the MS decides commit crime is when the two planets two transiting had a pass this man to board with Sunday so scores sort of macabre out. Nicole knife and if you got wikipedia me. Don't you know somebody different to trouble on to topple to send me a message on my facebook? Page telling me that. They listened to one of my podcasts. I think he was the one on coming singer a singer that and that she couldn't listen to it was waffled too much so we do too much from wikipedia which I thought was so. I report batches not player products when I said. Oh thank you so at least like it Is that only wanted to tell me. Is that really? What did the same denies episodes and wasted time? She just she didn't enjoy into Rob Blah Blah to it for that. If you didn't like it so I've applied by Tennessee. July one hundred OCD as. I'm sure you might find something on storms. You get mind. Joy blocked the solution went to meet tomorrow and I thought well was that review. She was keeping me was feed back. What she expects me to LE- beaver called the episode. I'm so the founding boring swear word was coming when she's I'm sorry. They did not file between the Vietnam. Sweden beaten back with the PD was to describe the concerned. It's like you know. How am I gonNA get information about? People love them peachable. Wherever isn't information spokesman. So as to say. Look into me wikipedia too because I might get somebody and scoop they can find information sons in Eighth House. The Sun is conjointly. Mc He really wanted to be famous for committing the perfect murder acids such such a thing exists leading up to him doing this. He read law. Books watched an all nasty films. Metsamor Steve Watching those two films and whether or not influenced by would be my way. He knows it sounds Quanson Munich. Junked they can pass the deviled bust. Gbd's nine means in the night. The Sun Venus Mec is assumed. Daniel Vettori can you chalk it up anyway thinking about it though? She hasn't missed. Fadi and I haven't used the dates. I did look the dates. When he started was actually anything. Significant I see was more. What was dramatic about him? And you know even his Pluto Pluto's opposite Jupiter but there's not much in his chart a challenging aspect maybe Mercury Square to Saturn Phoenix Square to submit. There's not much going on with each other. But he didn't commit these murders on his own. He committed them with this next person. Shit that John Seconds. This is Myra Hindley look that. She's got a really clustered charge. Colbert's one side of the circle means in Scorpius back in skopia territory. We got some conjunto Pluto. Acid sewing said the Sonny's twenty nine degrees can and Pluto is. I shouldn't off was well. She this subset. She's got some concern. Peach Oh but that answer sign and send insisted of the gift of the gap and she did give cause even off to the coin. Nothing to confess Benchley when she was in prison she did nothing but by that is asking to be released and this again nothing. Too stressful about the aspects of the sun is condemned each other in the second. Now that is where it all gets. I wouldn't use the word interesting management astronauts so when I compare that to charge for say. They didn't commit the crimes separately they committed together. They what does it team teams -able but now we know why this happened. Myra Hindley Pluto and Ian Brady's Pluto is exactly conjuncture. Tamara Hindley some Sun. Not Don't forget she's born with it. Conjunto active sign his speech. is in the same sign as her some sign so she's twenty nine degrees thirty three minutes into cancer and he's twenty nine degrees to two minutes to the tweets to this particular seconds so that's just unattainable. Mild was a bit of an age now between them so he's thirty eight. She's putting forty. Two is four years between them so some of the plans shifted and look how Muniz school pupils in his seventh grade. One which would be nice if they went. Committing Klein's first house so his son falls into his some mercury and Finis for inter her eighth and he himself said that surfaced house. He's got somebody ticketed for Fifth Sixth Seventh Eighth. His moon his mood falls into her a pass and her been forced into his seven pass and unfortunately people get kicks from. Wade stuff and they obviously did and so did the woman if you watch the video attention but I thought between the two Johnson Typically Zobel that he's Pluto's exactly conjoint could be Neva. Maybe a few minutes but degrees wise. It's not I think St John's much greater slow. Yeah he's writing cancer conjunction so neither the maternity particularly Weirdo weather until they met and that is actually talk sick. And if I was to somebody and that Pluto's executive job why south side feeding not? I mean she's bored with that. Any basically toes answered sign that he's absolutely identity. You have a lasting relationship and I know when they ended up in prison. They cabinet invited to each other. They don't teach and she knows about humidity mode He wants to he never wanted to be released because you live she dade and and then he got jealous that she died because he tried to. Kim Self Movement started stuff after death happened. Decide if that isn't to talk sick since Charleston ways. That's no fun so that was going to be is on. I'm not I've been asking people to send me information to do at Orient Strategy but I had the idea today that Dean something about sentence not for me particularly nice aspect to some and agenda ascended. Doesn't really go very well with a cancer sun sign. Libra us a Scorpio. Sentence doesn't really go very nicely with some sign. Libra it's it's sort of Describe gymnasts sending somebody whose son's on cancer it's just a bit too fast and Indians case. His choice is mostly earth. He's got bad of that and the funny thing is funny somewhat. The usual things look at that. I mean look that. That's that's a head of planet earth. Would to does not signify only the truth. Not and is anyone in. J- stupider it's just a a a a and then Pluto and he unfortunately buried find details that could moors murders murders. Have they buried them on things beyond he's been torres? Is that helpful to sentence? Somebody who's kept what I'd shop friend of. Mine's husband is a tourist sentence. It's Cincinnati citing can't accept. He's called Moon in Pisces. Yes be depressed kid to the toxic about those charts is by putting together ended a so the system will that's it that's why it happened way. They did so unfortunately. I'm sorry this is not very happy episode so we will reach us there for people convicted convicted child killers and remember Nicole so that you could possibly have that challenge yourself be a lovely fluffy. Nice human being begin advertisement charted a Marini Brady detail overhaul towards we don't Miss Alad but there are certain things about Charles. Let's be a challenge but people can have to. I would be glad to have very challenging jobs. But they might turn their lives around. Don't have told us before which took center and we had some people involved in heap savings and they have to do. It's not always the case. Do you have a challenge? Each other bad for your life will always be changing Nubia replacement doping prison. That's used to choices so I do hope you have a nice weekend. I will be back next weekend. If you've got or requestion allow me to answer. Do send it over activity if you've got slashed on issue with me at C. J. One instead to lessen the six lessons each see. This is the first one which is introduction to astrology. The second one is called Nick Steps. The first one covers in fact. All of the wide teach. Is this everything in the Paul cost on anything that teaching but the difference is that I don't see information that to we need to keep and to get one our skype session with me of you. Rachel lessons in this youtube videos as well so that you learn it WanNa pence begging pessimistic. Teach Classes K. I have to Akwa some the setup for what one on Sunday the ten property groups five different if I had suddenly eleven. I don't anything to do. Hoke tweet. Lockdown isn't johnny too crazy and I you have a question. Please send me an aura. Questionable governments we.

Scorpio youtube Charles murder Nicole knife Pluto Union conjuncture Ian Brady cancer Beverley Allitt Johnson Myra Hindley Pluto America Beverley Amit Leonard Tomiichi Disney Mary English SBA Lieber first house
Listener Tales 25

Morbid: A True Crime Podcast

1:04:55 hr | Last month

Listener Tales 25

"Hey weirdos marsh in i'm elena and i'm drew special. This is morbid welcome. Welcome so yeah. We have had some technical difficulties regarding this episode. So basically what we were doing is like patriots. Were picking the case. Says we gave them like a couple of options and then the winner of the poll. We would do that case. So i think the options that i gave for this week was dominique. Dunne and venus extravaganza. Venus extravaganza won the pole but upon researching. I started to come across some stuff. That i was like. You know. maybe it's not the right time to tell her story. And the quote. That i actually came across was Her nephew did an interview with billboard. And he said i don't think venus in her wildest dreams according to my family members would have ever envisioned herself becoming a transgender martyr. I think she just wanted to live her life and just be who she was without dealing with any social pressures or persecution. But the reason why we're about venus because there's a lot of fighting over her legacy. So when i read that i was like there's a lot of fighting over her legacy and right now just doesn't seem like the right time to get into the story. Yeah and it's there's not a lot is known about the crime either. It's a little bit of a tough one. Yeah on every front. Seems like you know the respectful thing to do to not to not touch it right. Yeah so i mean we still want to stay true to our word and give you three episodes this week and actually drew is going to join us for the venus episode because he loves all things drag all things paris's burning so instead we're going to do some listener tales. Just so that you make sure that you get your three episodes. We want to stay true to our word and we wanted to hang out with drew. Yeah so it makes all of those things possible And then the second thing that we just wanted to address. This is just really brief. It's nothing crazy but We've just been hearing a little bit of feedback about the brittany drexel episodes about how the two girls that she went to myrtle beach with. You know a lot of people have a lot of the opinions about them and whatever. We kind of had our own opinion. But i think that people were taking that like hearing about what the what was going on down there and are now like attacking them personally like finding them on social media and we just wanna make it very clear. I thought it was clear. But i want to make sure that we say it very clearly in black and white. We do not condone harassing anyone associated with these cases. No not we. We don't encourage it. We don't condone it opinions our opinions. They're like assholes. We all has one. But i will never want say someone's an asshole that doesn't mean go find them on social media and like try to you know make them come off of social media. I want anybody harassing any. Yeah we unless. It's myra hindley and ian brady. But they're both dead so go ahead and take that one right off the table. If they're still around. I'd say go find them but no we really just wanted to be very clear. We don't harass anyone. It's just not you know. Mo- i think most people listening are like yeah. We know like in case anybody like just i. We understand that like emotions run high. In these cases people get angry. We get angry and you want to scream at people involved about it but it's just not a good idea. It's not let it let it happen. Let these cases take their course and just just don't do it. We don't condone it. We're not cool with it so we just wanted to say that and then we just wanted to end our a little business portion of on like a real high note i think elena almost like shot her pants when i told her what happened. And i almost shut my pants when i saw. I'm so i like. I'm an old so i don't like you to. It's like a little four and in some ways to me like there's some things on there from like when i was younger but like it's turned into something totally different but i love a lot of these true crime Channels search for the word like we talked about. And then one that i have been really really really into is eleanor. Neil and one. I think her accent is the most delightful thing i've ever heard. I could listen to her talk about her. Brogue is wild amazing amazing. She's amazing at research. She's really good at presenting. And i just loved her. Yeah i been into our. And then we just found out that she like shouted us out on her recent episode about the mattie clifton case who we talked to jessica clifton. We did an interview with her while back Just talking about maddie talking about the case how it affected her and her family and it was that interview. I remember we left it and we were just like high because we were like that was so like it was just so satisfying to talk to someone that was like so. I don't know it just like i remember. We came home. We were like. This is why i wanna do this. Yeah talk to real people real. She was just so amazing she was so sweet she was so informative and so honest and like real and just gracious and we loved that episode. So when. Eleanor neil just shouted out on her recent episodes of mount maddie clifton which i am telling you go. Listen to her channel for sure. it was really satisfying because it was like. Oh that was one that like really was like special to us. That one will i. I will remember that interview forever. Yes so it was just like a really big one so we just wanted to say. Thanks to eleanor. Neil and it's so cool that you listen because we're big fans so that was like a nice is a shot in the arm. I link i think gen z would call us mutual really. That's what that means spicy. I don't really pay attention to gen. Z alienated good portion of our listeners. Right there that's awesome those those are pellet clinton. I'm going to go now. And i am ahead out. I love that all right. Well while drew kidding but do you stick around. We got a lot so this is a listener tells episode obviously and we got a ton of listener tales regarding willie it. Yes so. I just wanted to read a couple of them because a couple of them were like whoa crazy whole thing isn't going to be willie listener to just to start us. We just figured we'd start off with them. Because that was the most recent episodes. We've done so i know so this first one that i have is called listener. Tailwind picton was my neighbor. Oh which wow imagine living next door to that farm right out of the gate. Just who'd he was in my lane to about that noise. Apparently no one because it just kept going to listen to the willie picton episode. But like i imagine it was rough. Oh it's exactly what you're picturing like picture what you're picturing pictures of. Yeah that's all you need to know what you need. See a picture of him. And then you're like. I get it multiplies thousand. I totally get it a little closer so it says hey my weirdos i listen to your podcast at work in love in love. Just how you girls just be little the fuck out of these scum think you any name is anthony. By the way he said it so he says my name is tony. Hello tony hi tony. Macaulay tony tony. All right and yes you can use my name see. I told you because the story. I'm going gonna tell does not physically link anyone to willy willies evil ways. This is going to creep you out. 'cause well now that i'm thirty five and know so much about the story at grosses me out. Hello fellow thirty. Five year old. When julia unearths the corpse of famous actors from the thirties and her family's theater what was previously thought of as a disappearance is revealed to be a murder with the board of directors trying to push her out in the theaters reputation on the line. She looks to you to discover the truth about this cold case investigation. Whether it's date night or game night hunter killer brings people together by challenging them to decode ciphers examined clues and solve puzzles. It's like an escape room. Delivered right to your door with each delivery. You're gonna through piles of documents evidence audio recordings in case files eliminating suspects in identifying murder weapons until you crack the case and catch the killer and hunter killer gives us the opportunity to have fun work together in investigate a crime without even having to leave the house with hunter killer. You could have more fun at home for less than the price of a few drinks. A meal a decent restaurant or a movie and there's no babysitter required avoid packed restaurants and cheesy dates stay in and collaborate on an unforgettable murder investigation and part of the proceeds for every box. Go to the cold case foundation and asian. that's dedicated to helping with real life cold cases right. Now you can go to hunter killer dot com slash morton and use code morbid for twenty percent off your first box again. Make sure to use code morbid for twenty percent discount. Do you have what it takes to hunter killer. I was going to send you a different listener tail but because you brought this up to the fellow weirdos i thought well fuck might as well tell you this one instead. Let's take you back to the mid nineties where this guy was just a wee lad. I was about eight years old. My brother who is seven years old then sometimes had to babysit while my mom had to work nights or decided to go out with my aunt play bingo i love the iconic bingos. The best or i said seven years old by seven years older than him. I was wondering why a seven year old was babysitting. Sorry reading hard on a sunday. Okay we just got a hard on this. My dad was usually outta town until the weekend because he was a long haul trucker side note. Thanks to my weird fascination with serial killers. i always wondered about my dad but really he's too much of a crybaby to be one. Put a cheating husband all right. Yeah he was that l. o. L. anyway back to my brother. He's just like casual boom the well being young and dumb. My brother had to take me along. If you wanted to go out sometimes you would. We would ride our bike down the street to this bush boggy area in play around. We knew this plot of land belong to. Yep you guessed it right. The picton family and they did not like trespassers. We talked about that in the episode So as we played in the swamp bush market fuck area catch frogs and just be kids but anytime we heard a vehicle we would duck and hide so that they would not yell at us and chase us off their land eventually. They sold part of their land to be housed well. That didn't stop us from climbing the new mounds of dirt. Yes now to this day. I think women who may be women were buried their oh man. Let's tariff one day. I was climbing up this mound with my best with my brother and his best friend and lo and behold what do we see driving in this area a red pickup willie's car. That's willie it was grumpy. All willy as we try to get out of off this hill of mud and dirt boop get stuck and i'm trying to pull it out all of a sudden my brother says fuck it. Leave it and start running with one of my boots in a muddy saw. What am i boots and the hill and muddy my run across the street where my houses and then we see. Willie slowly drive by and yells at us to stay the fuck off his land. Willie yellow the you. that's scary. well years go by. I end up moving to maple ridge which is two towns over in my brother. Who was the troublemaker. Growing up started a party with some shady people. I'm stressed out. The victim farm started hanging out with hells angels. We call these type of people hang with these type of people hang around which aren't quite prospects but still did some dirty work for them. I love canada. That's all i have to say We were always aware. There's something going on at that farm but we didn't know it was as bad as it was an also is when the piggy palace was hopping on the fact that you were just like around for that. Oh yeah the piggy palace good-time society that was i don't even want you don't so eventually they caught. Willie thank fucking god. You piece of shit. yes. I do believe. His brother was involved so last year. I really got into true. Crime especially serial killers. And i went down the rabbit hole of what willie really did. What happened on that farm and i clued in my included one day. Oh fuck my brother was. Nineteen twenty years old around nineteen ninety eight and was hanging around with hells angels. So i called him up one day so it pretty much went down like this bro. Hey what's up me. Hey man you remember picton bro. Yeah man l. l. y. me. We'll fuck. I just listened to a podcast about him and his fucked up family bro. He's like you. He says you don't even know the half of it me dude. I just realized you. Nineteen or twenty around that time. Did you ever go to the piggy palace bro. All the fucking time. That's where we would go after the bar close to shutting me dude. Holy fuck you. What went down in that place. Did you see anything bro. For how many hanging around were hanging out there. You didn't have a wandering. i me. I hope to god. You didn't need the barbecue there bro. Oh yeah for sure me. I'm like dude. He grinded the victims into the meat. Grinder bro you only live. Once it was so we ate the barbecue i said. Oh yeah for sure. Oh the desserts. You only live once. You're bro is wild. I was in complete shock. My bro- said that but at this point what could you do. It's been many years since. Then but i did. What any good brother would do. I totally read it on him to my mom l. o. l. and no. We never bought meat off them. They're they're meet look terrible anyways. My bro- isn't being a shithead anymore. And i still true crime. Even though my neighbor was a prolific serial. Killer in canadian history. Anyway got a lot more scary stories from crime to spiritual and hopefully you like to hear them. Thanks for the read. Oh i added a photo to show you where we lived and where he lived. Well keep it weird. And i'll let ashti her thing even weird by non software that you live next audibly picton in you lose his sh you and you lose your shoe in his hill. You lost your shoe and his hill. You lost a new. Maybe it was part of like the excavation and everything. Your shoe was found. Your shoe may be like an evidence chains and he sent a map photo and they were very close. Just looking glows. that's so scary. Wow tony tony tony. The fact that you've just casually ad in there that you brother might have eaten barbecue. Like that's i've actually got to go. Wow was like. That's a lot. So i think we have one more willie picked in ask listener tale that i will read to you. This one's a little short. But we're going to go for it. This one's called picton and po compton listener tale. Maybe just finished listening to part two of your podcast and first of all i love your take on it if you could keep my name confidential. It's appreciated you got it. If it's easier you can call pork. Port coquitlam poco or polkomtel. Like us locals do so. Here's my near picton experience. At the i love that there's like a near picton experience at this at the time and right up until all this shit was picked him was exposed. My boyfriend had friends that rented from picton. They lived in a house on the burns. Road property don't worry though. They did not smell like barn animals and neither do the house. We used to visit that property frequently to hang out there until his friends had to relocate. Because you know serial killer landlord even shut the property down to dig up for evidence. Luckily they didn't find anything there. I cringe when i think of all the times i'd pop by later in the evening in the pitch black property on my own me and my boyfriend there of course and would walk for my car alone in the pitch black to the door. Although luckily i never actually met willie. At least in my recollection i was so young at the time and super naive and oblivious but it sounds like i'd remember that smell. You wish i do recall a time. I showed up at the burns. Road property and my boyfriend's friend was in the driveway. And says i'm just heading over to the stables to meet willie if you wanna come see the horses What me no thanks. Luckily i was still in the very lovey dovey stage of by relationships. So i couldn't wait to see my boyfriend. I know willie popped by the property from time to time so my boyfriend likes to remind me you probably sat. The same chairs did shudder bama. That's it. I'm gonna break here for shower there. Too many connections to this case when you grow up in the hood of compton i love your podcast in your light hearted take on cases. You guys are awesome and it says. Ps we have lots of crazy canadian cases. But you should look into delon millard. That dude is talked. Noted will now going to look into it one hundred percent because we still have to have one of our favourite canadians on the podcast jordan from the nighttime my gosh yeah. We're gonna have to pick a case for him to be on. Maybe that's one we got a wild guys. Thank you for sending your near picton. Experiences with us now reminds me of when my dad like just casually mentioned his connection to john as we were eating dinner. He's like oh. Actually what case are you doing and i was like. Oh we're working on john. Casey like oh yeah. I went to school the when it's victims and then just took another bite evanston like. Why didn't i know that he's like it. Just never come up really said that he goes. It just never came up. She's never like how would just never flat out asked me. His hometown is twenty minutes away from where john wayne gave my god and he also has like this connection to a case because he was in the military and one of his like sergeants or something was on forensic files episode for key killed his either wife aware that he has a picture with him and just like sent it to me one day. Just just living. Yeah joe joe was wild is on. I have great and loss mean. I guess that thing those things never come up when your family is just not interested and then i came along. Can you just imagine like one day. Someone's like i'm going to ask you guys have a connection to joan. I've been waiting for you to break. I walk in. I'm like does anybody ever true. Crime connection anybody have a listener tail pogo. The clown and nobody does that ring. A bell denny shows like ding ding ding ding. He's like i smell what you're stepping in and let me tell you something on this for years. So funny wow yeah. So that's that willie picton. Now we're going to veer right out of that forever and ever. Yeah now by willie forever. My next listener tail is called mummy. Who's that lady. Ooh yeah no. All right hailing and ash. I thought i'd email you a story. That happened a few years ago when i think about it. Now it still freaks me out. Hold onto your butts so it all started. When my marriage broke down. I was living in the south of england with my son and now ex husband who was serving in the military. As i'm from the north when we were separated. I decided to move back to manchester to be closer to family and friends myself and little boy set off to try to build a new life. We moved in with my sister for a while until we could find a home to rent. It didn't take long and one came up in the village where i grew up perfect. I knew that area really well. And i was close to family and friends and my favorite chippy was across the road. You can't beat a northern fish and chip shop. Oh i i feel that. Oh yeah. I made ships last night. It was delicious It was a little terrorist house. Small but big enough for me my two year old. Son noah and our cap. Oh my god. i'm poopie but it's poppy. Who your in our cat. Who are cat. Poppy which is an east We moved in and started to build our our new life. I got a job in started to find a new normal. I couldn't subtle though you know when you move into a new place and it takes a while to feel at home. Well i never felt comfortable. I never felt at home. I couldn't put my finger on what it was. I just had this bad vibe and the cat wasn't happy either. That's when you know they always loopy. Poopie is mad and she's like that's not my cats. Whenever she was in the house she was skittish in any opportunity she had she would out the door. Oh no franklin does that all the time. oh no. I don't think we're haunted until one day. She just point blank refused to come back in the house. she started going in the neighbor's house instead. No matter what me and the neighbor tried she would not come back in. I spoke to the neighbor about it. She was an old lady who had lived on the road forever. I told her about my experience of not feeling comfortable in house. And she said the previous tenant previous tenant had said the same. She just left it at that. And i thought the house must be unholy as the world becomes increasingly uncomfortable. We're all looking for as much comfort as we can get. Have you ever been in a situation where you have to run into somebody and you end up talking to them for a long time and you really just want to get out of there the whole time. Because you're like oh. This is uncomfortable. And i'd rather be in my comfortable bed. You know while the one comfort that i can always count on is the comfort of my purple mattress that's because purple is comfort. Reinvented only purple. Has the grid a stretchy gel material. That's amazingly supportive figure back and legs while cushioning your shoulders neck and hips. I don't know how it does it but it's just fantastic because of how it's designed the grid doesn't trap air. Air actually circulates and flows through it. So you'll never overheat. The grid bounces back as you move and shift unlike memory foam which are members egg thing. That's my memory. Foam has craters and divots. And you don't want that personally. I got the purple pillow. And when i tell you what is the most comfortable piece of like majestic beauty that i've ever laid my head upon. I'm not lying to you. i'm not exaggerating. i love. That pillow sometimes drew tries to steal it. And i say no not today and guess what right. Now you can try your purple mattress. Risk with free. Shipping and returns financing is available to purple really is comfort for an uncomfortable world. Right now you'll get ten percent off any order of two hundred dollars or more go purple dot com slash morbid ten and use promo code more baton. That's purple dot com slash morbid ten promo code more baton for ten percents off any order of two hundred dollars or more purple dot com slash more baton. Promo code more baton. Terms apply fast forward a few months my cats moved out to live with the old next door. The betrayal i held her paw apo- while she gave birth. You know oh and my son had his third birthday. He was speaking a whole lot more and could hold in can hold a really good conversation. He's had a. He had always been a really light sleeper as a toddler and ended up in my bed at some point in the night one night like usual. He woke up and got in bed with me fine. He lay down. And i close my eyes to go back to sleep. Well then he sat himself up and said money. Who's that lady. Oh no no. No i asked what lady he said. The lady stood at the window while my heart stopped vomit in my mouth. I look up at the window and there's no one there. There isn't a lady noah. there she is. She stood at the window. Then my spooky child started giggling saying. Stop it lady. Oh my god. I'm not ashamed to what she do it. I know i would not ask. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I hid under my covers literally shat the bed. That was the start of it. My son started to speak about this lady quite often. He would see her and other places in the house but mostly in my bedroom which obviously freaked me out of -ly. I convince myself that he had an imaginary friend. And i needed to stop being a shit house and embrace my creepy child's new mate. I smoked to friends and family about it and they were unsettled as i was about the situation. And then they didn't wanna come around my house anymore. God that sucks about a month. After noah started seeing and speaking to this lady. I happen to be leaving the house around the same time as my elderly neighbor. She asked how we were getting on. And whether we were feeling more at home i told her no and begin to real everything off. My little boy had been saying she started to look a little flustered like she was having an internal argument with herself. Then she said verity. I really didn't want to tell you this. But in nineteen ninety-three dr shipman came round your house and killed the lady who lived there okay. That's that's like joe dropping the jumbling. Ac thing it's just like. I didn't want to tell you this side but murder literally. well well. My jaw hit the floor. I couldn't believe it. I sat home that night and couldn't actually believe what evil had taken place. I honestly believe that the bad vibes. I had felt all that time. Where because of the horror of the house had witnessed. I felt so much sadness. Sadness for the victim. I'll post a link to an article about her. My son carried on speaking to the lady for a little while longer and then suddenly it stopped. I don't know why. I don't know whether it was linked. But it seems too much coincidence. The feeling of unease never left and we moved out a few years later. I often wonder if whoever lives there. Now has the same feelings i did. My son is now nine and can't remember the lady at all. Well at least. I don't think he does. I'm not gonna mention it. Because i know he's not ready to hear that story for a long time. Well that's my spooky true crime story. I hope it met expectations. Here's a link to the victim. Love you both verity. Whoa that's nuts. Least she was like nice to the kid. Yes that's true when he was afraid. You crazy lady gives me. She was just made about it really. Does she was just my bones have ever do that. Story i've never told you that story and really tell it. Are you in for treats so you know at the place where i point out to you like near her house that i used to live in like above certain posts. Megyn me trying to try and get location. You know that player that please please got it. Okay so me and my mom lived there I would like the upstairs at night by myself. It was like a loft apartment and she would leave me up there after it was time to go to bed and my mom like would not come to bed until super league and i was always terrified and i would see this lady sitting by the closet and She didn't have a body. She was just made of bones and she used to like. I think she had a head right. She had hair like she had her face. Was like skeletal but it was still a face and she used to like say scary shit to me and i don't remember what it was but like like when you get older you're going to have a big tax bill that she was like i'm going to eat you right now and i would always get so scared and actually i got so scared. One night that my mom i was like unconsolable or inconsolable or whatever and my mom had to call my dad till it comes settled me down god and they were divorced mansion. Best the joy that burns. So we'll see our kids someday aren't as creepy as a ghost. Shit you've had happened. I never had anything happened to me because you live like century farmhouse the first well my my house. I grew up in from eighteen. Hundreds and i knew there is definitely some feeling of like spirits but they feel like they chill the end like the only time like. I really had like a ghost encounters when the ghosts in your grandparents house would fuck with me. Oh yeah he's far you hard. I was like laying like laying on ash in like. Let's not say was but anyway i like heard a whisper and i looked up and it was like clearly not ash and i did. I ask you if you said zone. They say something. And i was like no and then i would like and that's when i would have to leave for work at like three. Am and like i would walk downstairs and i could literally like. Sometimes i feel like something like right. Oh yeah like in my face like who are you. What are you doing what the fuck. Why are you in our health. Are you a lesbian. Are you one of those lesbians. Get outta here up until this point. We've only had the streets labor from the hundred so they're like what i'm saying but now i think they were very protective over me. I moved into that house during some very difficult task. And i always remember the at the ghost es in that house row like very chill because you would like when you were younger and i didn't live there yet like if mom went somewhere you would stay alone. I alone enough. And then when you moved out. And i lived there and papa would go on vacation i would watch the house. Yeah and i remember. There was always one like this weird with of perfume. Go by a lot in that house and it was. When i was feeling like creeped out and i'd be like i don't know and then all of a sudden i get a wafted perfume and calm down so i feel like it was like one of the ghost being like it's like here's some chanel number five or your grandparents were away and i was like i don't want to stay here. It creeps me out like being here alone. I don't wanna be here. They're a ghost here. And as i said there were go. Sear like the leaf e fell. Here we are out of here. It sounds like a lot less dramatic than it was. We were literally like arguing like he was like. I'm not staying here. And i was like it's fine. I literally live here like nothing is wrong like you either. Go spot like what. It's fine and like underplaying the entire situation. Not only did we fall. I think it was a book or something fell off the table. And i was like okay. Thanks a lot guys all right because at that point we were commuting an hour over an hour to see each other so we had to go drive an hour to back. Are you fucking kidding me. Thanks mom was so unimpressed showed up. She was like really like yeah. Leave fell that's crazy. Me and donna. Together i was like your kid is extra on is like you should go on one of those coast onto. That's compelling evidence. Has this way of just going really like just like bat. And she said. I love it but listen details own means. This is a fun listener tale since because it's like a it's a mishmash mishmash of willie picked in other people's go stories our early paranormal relationship. Well and then. I can bring you a pretty fucking terrible murder which was written by somebody who has a band that you should check because i just listened to it and i was like whoa. Oh yeah we were trying to decide like who you're band reminded us of and we said the used mixed with the story so far. Yeah it's like it brings very like early 'oughts pop punk realness to like the stall really came bubbling back. And i love it. Yeah you guys are really talented. You are so. And i'll tell you who they are single the listen So this is called listener tales. Sandwich delivery driver murderer piece of shit all right so just in case you were about to press go on your door dash. Wait one second sup. Y'all fucking weirdos. My name is chris. I working apartment industry in texas. Get ready to say y'all a lot currently writing this well in an apartment. Where ladies throat was slashed while her boyfriend was on a meth bend rage. But that's another story to right later. So this is what's this isn't even about one. I need that one as well. Fleas cry. he's bringing it already. My wife showed me your podcast. And i've been hooked ever since i love that it wanted to share something that happened around five years ago seven years ago. I was dating a girl named heather maples. We dated on and offer two years and in two thousand and fifteen. While we weren't together we spent a weekend together and we're talking about the possibility of getting back together. She had moved to tennessee and was working as a leasing agent for an apartment complex the weekend after we spent together i received a text around two a m where she was asking about some song. I told her which song it was and fell back to sleep without receiving a response back from her. I went on with my day at work the next day when i received a call from a a friend telling me to check social media logged on. I saw that. Heather had been brutally murdered around two or three a m. My jaw dropped to the fucking floor in the next week or so. It was a complete blur of talking to detectives. I was one of the last one in communication with her in morning. They finally arrested the scum human about a week. Later in detail started coming out. This dude was a delivery driver and reportedly had delivered to her previously. And i'm not sure if he became obsessed with her or what but he broke into her apartment raped and strangled her. She died from blunt force trauma. I've attached an article with a few more details. Apparently i wasn't the only guy she had been talking to. During the trial it came to a light to came to light that he recorded the attack on her her with his cell phone. What the fuck guardless of what activity. She was engaging in. Still fucked me up pretty bad for about a year until i got together with my beautiful and amazing wife anyways. There's my story. And i gotta get the hell out of this murderer apartment too many spooky vibes going on. Y'all stay weird but not so weird you let a sandwich delivery guy break into your apartment. Ps y'all can use my name and you can also check out my band his band. Chris's is keep sake and you can find them on spotify and they re if you like that like i feel like when you go to. You're gonna know exactly what i'm talking about. It's like a really good vibe to it. it's very. it really reminds me a lot. Does it it gave me like like brought me back. And i was gonna say in high school. That was one of my favorite bands. I got kicked in a face in the face at there. Show there you go chris. That's like really sad. And i'm so sorry that that happened to you because that is way too close to home so you for sharing it with us though. Also can you send us about your scary apartment yet. Please send the second listener tale plead. Yes the second listener tail in also his like spooky apartment vibe reminded me of that case that you did in new orleans badian zach. Yes yes yeah. It reminded me of that. I know that does have the same kind of vibe stewart. We love spooky apartment except not at all. I love that. My apartment was built in two thousand sixteen. Could be a britney bitch ghost. Yes which one should i read next. You picked most of these. You wanna do. Kinky bathroom goes. I shouldn't do conclude that you're telling me you know what you can do. Kinky moaning. Myrtle is that one can only hope voting myrtles creepiest. She can keep out there. And i just say the crimp die. Say the king the creepiest. Either way okay. Well this says. I have a random history of hearing and seeing things. I can't explain. But i've never shared any of my experiences with others. Their small things sitting on a swing in my backyard and seeing a blurry misty figure walking between pine trees or sitting at my dorm desk and hearing a deep whisper. Repeating my name. The story i'm sharing is from nine years ago when i was twenty. Three and living in oshkosh oshkosh b'gosh northern lovingly known a slush clog slash slash kosh wisconsin for from me and my No oh my god. I'm going gonna reset my then boyfriend and i lived on the second floor of a neglected college student apartment building. When i say this place should not have been legal. I mean are smoke. Detectors dangled open with wires hanging loose. Our freezer kept warm late. You their freezer kept warm with a layer of mold and the kitchen roof pissed gallons of melted snow over the orange linoleum every other week delicious. Why the bathroom was off. The living room and triggered my claustrophobia. Everyday creaking shut that tom old wooden door closed. Only with a forceful poll from the inside. The only lock was a silver hook through an oh. I hate that silver hook through an eye at tit level on live on a lisi night when my boyfriend was on the couch watching. Tv i went in the bathroom pulled the crooked door shut and secured the hook latch. I know i locked it. Because as i did. I thought this is stupid. The only version here is asked face not his real name and he's not coming in and bathroom. But i'm bathroom shy and i wanted the security of the sophisticated locker room. I was on the toilet. Contemplating important wisconsin dilemmas like do brats better with monster or cheddar cheese when the door opened a third of the way just enough for me to see out in the living room and shit myself going. You're already on the show. I could see ask face still sitting across the room on the couch and no other people were in the apartment the door. oh yeah the door opens into the living room. So it's not like my ninja. Cats could have pushed it open to visit their mommy while she peed. I shot up pants around my ankles and yanked the door shut as hard as possible. There was no way it could it could open on. Its own even without the lock. It take it takes muscles to move it from the frame. I slept that night with my phone. Flashlight on it. For the rest of our lease i was high alert on whatever. Kinky spirit haunted the building. I haven't had an unexplainable experiences. Although i now live in a house where the previous owner died. So i'm holding onto my but for whatever comes up next keep it weird but not so weird that you live with the ghost with no boundaries. Kills your smoke detectors and haunts your bathroom. And that's from sarah sarah. Are you gonna read her. Sarah sent us to double space in pediatrics. Which is just great. Because sarah knows what the fuck is up and she knows that. I can barely read double spaced as is but it was just really great. So appreciate that sara and that was the kinky ghost and she also has one called the green man all right. I moved to belleville wisconsin in nineteen ninety four. When i was six. And i heard about the green man when i was a teenager. Belleville is a town of two thousand. Three hundred nestled between cornfields with no stop lights. Main street has four bars parade every year to our. Ufo's and aliens icons cirque. Grocery store has changed names at least three times in the past fifteen years you know. You're a pre y. Two k resident when you know what jim czyz or crawled your way out of the shed after one too many shots of blue raspberry uv cranked teenage stuffing. Lou rawls fairy movie. Wow brought me back. My family lived in town until i turned thirteen. And we bought a lot We bought a lot in a wheatfield two miles away from the nearest soccer fields. Moving from having neighbors behind on both sides of us being isolated in the country serenaded by coyotes. Every night was freaky. Our living room had tall windows stacked on each other to reach the fifteen foot high ceiling. Wow my parents didn't get blinds in them for a few years. So i spent nights huddled alone on the couch under a heavy blanket holding the remote as both a tool and a weapon as the darkness stared back at me. That's tariff when i got out of that was if you celebrate christmas you could have had the most baller hugest tree the green man not the christmas tree. No agreement supposedly. He was a man released from prison after serving time for something violent. His house was out on highway. Ninety two hugged in the curve of the road by a healthy wall of pine trees blocking it's twisted frame from view. His name came from the paint. He used on his skin when he went out hunting. More than one friend told me stories of how he crept through their backyards climbed into their back porches and tapped his machete against their windows. Goodbye others spoke of him. Walk walking through cornfields to step out on a desolate road looking for someone to cut there. No street lights in the country and stop signs for stop. Signs provide perfect chances for a person or dear to pounce on the newly licensed victims. Although i spent years terrified to look out my windows at night the only time i saw what could have been greenman was during my junior year when i was on a midnight drive with two friends. That's when it all happens. Those sit after dropping one girlfriend off at her house a majestic cabin on a hill. You could get into only by driving on miles of too curvy wooded roads. My other friend nice sang loudly to our fallout boy cd as i got back to town. Wow i pulled up to. An intersection stopped. Check for cars. There were no lights. Only half dead corn waiting for harvest. I looked left. Then right and screamed. When i saw man standing on the shoulder of the road heels kissing the grass as he stared at us you are a great writer by the way. Yeah she is fellow fresh. She got fresh premeasured ingredients and mouth-watering seasonal recipes delivered right to da hellofresh. Lets you skip those trips to the grocery store and makes home cooking. Easy fun and affordable. And that's why it's america's number one meal. Kit hellofresh cuts out stressful meal. Planning grocery store trip so you can just enjoy cooking and get dinner on the table in about thirty minutes or less. And they offer over twenty three recipes each week featuring a broad range of flavors cuisines and ingredients so that you never get bored seriously. I would say that they have like a million recipes if you asked me because there's so many to choose from personally i love cooking with hellofresh recently. I've redone my entire schedule. And i actually scheduled in cooking because sometimes i feel like i don't have time to cook but now i do and they're right. It really takes like thirty minutes or less. i start before. Drew gets home from work and then when he's finished showering and ready for dinner. Dinner's ready for him. You know go to hellofresh dot com slash ten morbid and use code ten morbid for ten free meals including free shipping again. That's hellofresh dot com slash ten morbid and use code ten morbid for trend. Free meals including shipping. There were no other cars around and no nearby houses. He could've come from. He must have walked out of the corn. Just as i pulled up. He didn't move. Didn't say anything just stared into the window. My friend hit the dash to get me to drive. I slammed the gas of my ninety six mazda so it pushed ahead. I looked toward forward while my friend turned around to stare at the man saying that he was still watching us stepping into the road and turning his body towards my car. We were terrified and actually really lucky. My car had engine problems back. Oh my god didn't the not. Whenever i would come to a complete stop. The engine would shut off. And i'd have to put it into park. Remove the key then started back up again hoping the sputter would turn into a home owned my god. That was so many cars that i drove in high school. I was going to all my friends cars. All of my cars my siler. Yeah i don't know why it didn't happen that night at the stop sign. I do know that. Sixteen years later. I have a fear of dark nights and roads. I drive by the green man's old house weekly to visit family. It's been listed for sale but never purchased adding to its mystery. It doesn't look like anyone could be living there. But i'm not about to go knock on the door to check. Thank for reading my small town tale. Keep it weird but not so weird that you drive by a dying car. You drive a dying car at midnight and almost get murdered by field by field wandering maniac who wears his favorite color like a creepy badge of crazy. Who has houses spooky but the land this this little creepy house. Courtesy of zillow listing. Well done with the crediting there. Wow sarah bats bonker you're an amazing writer first of all and your life is hilarious and i love it. I love that so much. Imagine if you were just driving in the middle of the night not happen to you and everybody has that like one thing in their town like that one crazy do the legend one like a like one of my friends went and We drove down this like dead end but we didn't know it was a dead end. It was like on. 'cause i grew up like on the acid river and like we were trying to get to the river and we drove down. This dead end turned around and when we were coming back there was a guy standing in the middle like just standing in the middle road so like just blogging us in like. I creeped up in like he started screaming at us because apparently i was going too fast. Let me pop in here to say that was. it's not. Apparently you definitely were going like in a thirty. According to some circle drew never things that he's driving too fast road on your house. You're supposed to like twenty. Yeah she's like forty the other day. I was like dude. What are you doing so so it's debated whether you going fast. And afterwards i was with like my best friend whose dad was a police officer in our town and we called him and he's like yeah that that guy's crazy you're dumb he's like oh you guys are stupid. You're luckier live kind. Murders people on the regular. We just let it happen. We actually avoid those parts ourselves. Oh my god. I love that. We had one in our town but he used to just like get really mad and he would like your car with a shovel. He would come running out of the back of his house and like hit your car with a shovel. Yes you guys go around there we did. I don't know if he passed away before. I got into high school though. No no no. We never went there. Yeah he was. He was scary. Dude the kids of the worst very true which mentioned i read next. I could read okay. I'm going to read the nottingham castle. One i'm excited for this one. All m so let me just pull it up here all and we got another pdf. Oh hey ladies. My name is louise. And i'm here to tell you some tales about history. Well some of it. In of nottingham castle in england off sorry about the length. Never be sorry. Never we love a lengthy listener till we do. I how we started. Nottingham began in the sixth century. We are in. We be an old city. It was a small settlement known as nada anna ham. yup not so let me explain to ingham sonata. Ingham yup snow so let me explain the word ham means or at least meant village. Ingham meant belonging to and nata was a man. Probably the chief of the village said the name just meant. The village owned by nada overtime. We dropped the s. And there you have it nottingham. When that i like that when denmark conquered northeast eastern england in the late ninth century i think that means viking dudes and my dna is fifty percent. Scandinavian and my family has been nowhere near that place. So i'm gonna say on the legit viking. Heo heo nottingham became a fortified settlement. The town grew after the norman conquest. That's the french and in ten. Sixty seven william. The conqueror built a wooden castle. There and this is still the site of that castle today now. Nottingham castle is no longer a castle. It'd do cal mansion Built in the sixteen seventy s. It has an interesting history. Look into it. There have been sieges. Bores murders it's been burned down and rebuilt. It's fascinating if you like that kind of thing so i don't know how much you guys know about royalty especially in history. But lemme tell you they be some of the most whiny over privileged self-serving fucks that you have ever that have ever existed. I love this. You want to take over and take over. Here's one horrific example of that. Hold onto your tits girls. The shit be disturbing in twelve twelve. A welsh prints was king. John the first a little trouble. I mean he probably just didn't like the shitty rule of this english. Fuck face but who knows in some effort to bring this prince back under his control shitty king. John held twenty eight boys ages twelve to fourteen hostage at nottingham castle. This was quite common back then. They were generally treated well and raised in a way that made them have some loyalty to their parents. Enemy thinks theon gray joy living with the starks. It's that kind of stitch you you you made me understand. He was your fav- i know. And then rico and then recap. That's because you haven't started it yet but we're going to do this week you will. I think we're going to do it this. I can't pet you right now. I'm pantomime and going you will. These boys were the children of welsh nobleman. And i guess this privileged thought holding the kids hostages would keep the welsh princeton check. This was not the case. The prince revolted again in king. John decided to execute their children as punishment. Oh okay yep this piece of shit hung all twenty eight of these children by tying a rope around their neck and having them thrown over the castle wall jesus this and then she says taken from a short story of nottingham castle a chronicler states that the bill boys pitiful cries rang around the castle as one after the other. They were taken up on the ramparts and hanged in a row. The boys being taken from their play some screaming others pleading in vain for mercy and hanged on the castle walls seriously. What was wrong with people in this day and age. This wall still stands. What's what why wouldn't they just knock it down because they'd have to knock everything down. Knock everything down bad should happen on everything. It's also said that rather than have the boys buried they were left to rot hanging on the wall and now people still here. The boys pleading for their lives. Tear it down just one more note to show. What an utter con king john. The i was. Here's quote about some other shit. He did done a clerk of the. I don't know what that word is scripture. A scratcher a clerk of the schicker joffrey by name on small suspicion was thrown into a dungeon at nottingham castle. And they're done to death. He closed him and lead and so by depriving him of l of l air bereft to okay. I get it. it's like old english. That's why it's i can read. He closed him in lead in so by diprivan him. All of all air bereft of his life with all. Let me translate that old english speech. They lead on his chest until they crushed his lungs. Oh shit. I did not gather that. That's insane gyles. Corey him they did. And wow but those poor boys are not the only ghost eason are in and around the castle. Possibly the most well known ghost story is that of mortimer's hole. Now ladies pull your minds out of that gutter mortimer's hole is a cave nothing else. That's not what i was thinking. Nodding have his full of caves where a city built on sandstone. Which is very easy to dig into. Nottingham castle sits on top of a massive sense dome atop castle rock. We good at names castle rock and has a network of tunnels leading up into the castle. There are some grisly happenings in here. Too sorry for the length. The story begins with king. Edward second yet another ship bag popular king who ruled england for twenty years between edward the second son of edward. The first became heir apparent following the death of his elder brother. Alphonso dude we could have had king called freaking alphonso. Edward ascended to the throne after his father's death. Because you know that's how that works. His troubled reign was in no small way caused by his relationship with a member of his personnel household peers galveston galveston had been introduced to court by edward's father but he was later banished exile because he was quote unquote a bad influence on prince edward. Now let me tell you why this is bullshit. Galveston galveston was unpopular. Sure but he was not in my opinion about influence there's a lot of evidence that prince edward and galveston were actually lovers. That's what it was. And that was the reason king over. The i didn't like their relationship. When edward the second became king he recalled the man he loved to court. Were galveston's power and influence over. The king was resented by the barons. Jealousy the barons hated this dude so much they forced the king to exile him again but instead he made galveston lord lieutenant of ireland. So we'll see him. Wow in thirteen await. Edward married isabel of france. Daughter of king. Philip the shit. What does that number five. But i don't know i v four four. I thought okay one less awesome. There you go. Thank you drew. My roman numerals. This check us out on google there. You go. edwards is bella. france daughter of king philip. The fifth rail no four. Sorry for thousand to give you an idea of isabella's wrap. Her nickname was the she wolf of france was a she wolf in your country. What a bad nickname iconic. I'm screaming. sorry. I dislike into the microphone and whatever her husband's relationship with galveston was. She grew to hate him and soon enough. She did her job and popped out a kiddo future king edward the third g another edward the imagination of these fucking. This brought the couple together for a while but soon galveston was back in the picture and the queen and the barons were not impressed no galveston had been killing it as lord lieutenant of ireland. Yeah no clue what the lord of the senate is. Either sorry so edward convinced the barons to allow galveston back into england. But once again they could not stand galveston and edwards relationship and they took action against him bringing the country to the brink of civil war. The peerage and clergy served king an ordinance which restricted his powers and they added an addendum to the ordinance which was the exile upon pain of death of peers galveston. Oh go you guys suck not you talking but like these people all. Lena what would you say like your favorite guilty pleasure. Tv show is like what's your favorite guilty pleasure. In general my favorite guilty pleasure is playing with best peens. Is it really all my god. Well that's perfect because we in that commercial right now. we're in that commercial. Yeah were you just playing. I was being serious. Really my favorite guilty pleasure. But you know you don't have to feel guilty about it. Because everyone loves playing fiend fest. Fiends gives us endless sources a fund that we can access anytime right on our phone. It is a match three puzzle game like none other with literally. Thousands of levels and new content added all the time. i've never. They never ends how i feel like. We've been playing for by entire life. My turned away years that we've been planning. Yeah and i'm not sick of it. Never in my life i played a game for two years. Still grab my phone and go to that. When i'm need a moment. Yes because sometimes you just need a moment to yourself with your fiends. exactly y- i love them and i think my cuter than anybody else's even though we probably have the same that's untrue. It's not well that's is awesome and you know what it gets your brain going in a time where you need to get your brain going. There's literally thousands of levels to play an counting plus tons of cute characters to collect even though minor the cutest so if you never get tired of solving puzzles good news buddy with best means the fun never ends. Just don't blame me if he becomes slightly obsessed download best means free today on the apple app store. Google play. that's friends without the our best fiends. But like the lonely lover he was. That dude came on back. But this time thomas of lancaster in guide to bow champ earl of warwick hunted him down and put him to death by sword so yeah poor. Galveston was stabbed to death on june twelfth. Thirteen twelve don't worry. I'm getting to the ghost. Honest but context. Here is important honestly. I'm loving this so not only. Was the king devastated. By the death of his friend and lover he was also losing the war with scotland and had just lost the battle of berne to robert the bruce. Well maybe english whoop whoop bobo bad times edward no. I don't know what you know about english scottish geography. But apparently the scots beating the english sterling meant that queen. Isabella had to flee york to nottingham sterling two hundred and twenty five miles from york in york ninety three miles from nottingham. So honestly not sure. What difference that extra ninety miles would make to the marauding horde that actually traveled over two hundred miles but hey royalty apparently it's because nottingham castle is a very strong fortress. This is where we meet our main man. Roger mortimer who would soon give his name to a whole roger de mortimer lord of wigmore third. Baron mortimer i earl of march. Fuck me names. Were complicated back then. Was born. Twelve in twelve eighty seven and was of royal blood a second cousin twice removed of king edward the second and fourth cousin once removed of queen. Isabella go incest and an ancestor of tinsley mortimer. That's all. I have to give you ashes much to offer. I love history. I just love that little parenthetical there. That's go incest. Like most of the barnes and nobles mortimer had been bid been one of the men who opposed edwards release relationship with galveston. But this doesn't mean to have affected his relationship with the king he was even made lord lieutenant of ireland after galveston's murder around this time there was some kerfluffle among the latin word. Loyal to the king. In those who thought it was an utter tit. I love like british slang during this time. As the king reestablished royal authority there were some minor skirmishes mortimer was arrested and imprisoned in the tower of london. Oh that's good. We know that the state is not executed but condemned to life in prison. This turned out to be a mistake. On the king's part and would lead to his downfall. After two years murmur mortimer managed to escape and fled to france. Now this was the beginning of the end for good. Old king. Edward the second. His marriage was in the shitter. His kingdom was in ruin and internationally politics was just against him so they sent isabella to france with their son. The future king on some diplomatic mission. And this is where she met and fell in love. With roger mortimer yeah. The queen was having an affair and they plotted against. The king of england invaded england. If a queen can actually invade the country she rules and edward and his supporters were taken by surprise. The king was captured nearer curve. Fully carefully carefully carefully. That'd be okay. That'd be in wales. They said while trying to escape to ireland and imprisoned kennel wall castle kenilworth castle. Sorry edward was forced to abdicate and his son. You know it. Edward became king. Edward the third of england now edward. This new edward was only a child and so needed a regent. That's like a responsible adult. Who actually makes the decisions and his regent was his mom king isabella who has guided in no small part by her lover. Mortimer said king isabela king. Isn't it why she might have been she was. She says she is mortimer needed. The old king gone 'cause he's he would probably raise an army and claim the country again and soon the old king died of natural causes quote unquote. Well being kept at berkeley castle leader. We find out it was far far from natural in. This man died a horrendous and painful death. Hold onto your butts. The chronicle of jeffrey la- baker states he was held in a cell above the rotting corpses of animals in an attempt to kill him indirectly. What how it work with like nastiness an infection and gross with stink but edward was extremely strong fit and healthy and survived this treatment until on the night of september twenty. First thirteen twenty-seven he was held down in a red hot poker pushed into his anus. Three drenching horn. His screams could be heard for miles around. I think i just heard his screams. I can still hear his screams. I heard it over here. Apparently this was done so there would be no suspicious marks on his body fun times fucked up. they're like just a couple of hem. Roy no big deal just a just a burnt amos. Lorimer was now acting like he was king and soon his controlling of the king and his shitty running the country began to split the realm into fractions. Those who supported murder mortimer in those who supported the king after a few years edward planned a coup against mortimer and his mother isabella. He gathered a group of twenty or so young men who he made nights and look for the best time to surprise mortimer his chance came along when mortimer who is now a paranoid fekre called Called parliament to obtain attend him at nottingham where he was safely ensconced with isabella and the castle one of the country's most comfortable and secure royal residences and this might dudes is where we get mortimer's hole what happened next was obviously planned. Those twenty nights close to the king were shown into the castle via secret underground passage leading up through the rock. Someone at the top. Possibly edward himself unlocked the door inside the castle and let the nights in these nights ended up fighting with mortimer and some of his followers one was killed terrified bishop was caught trying to escape through a privy shaft. Yup this dude full on tried to escape via the poop chute mortimer was arrested and the dowager queen placed under armed guard. They bound mortimer took him back down into the tunnel. All of that leads to just two ghosts haha. So in the castle you hear shuffling footsteps that were credited to a bound mortimer and you often hear a woman crying out for mortimer's life fair son have pity on the gentle mortimer sweet so all of that word vomit was just a few go spot. I think it's a fascinating tale of a very brutal time volley that was like louis. Thank you for the history lesson. Louise girl you shit. That was awesome. I wanna really could that. Just be an episode. All by itself awesome. I was very you. That was so fun that was like very like princeton. the tower that's fun like medieval torture. Episode stock has so much fun. So one guys well that was our listeners episode with mine and you guys rock while guys we hope you keep listening and you know if you have listener tales. Make sure you send them to morbid. Podcast itchy dot com with the Subject line listener tails and then something really funny and we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it we heard. Do you want to do the not so short. Shoot them up okay You can do say it so fast but not. I don't know but not so weird that you live in. Was that in scotland. Yeah okay. There was some scotland in there anyways. But not so weird. I have to gather myself abso- on my brain works okay ready. But that's the way that you live. The next door to billy picked up because that would be crazy. That's the word that you leave your boot and willie pickens like yucky thing. Not so weird. That your child's like money. Who's that lady like. Can we go talk to her. Oh my god lady. You're so funny. Definitely not so weird that you go to nottingham castle. I'm just gonna leave it at that. Because i was wild bathroom so weird that your band is super cool but your experience was not and i think That's it not so weird that you see the green man just shown. Oh yeah not not. So what happens to you and the yes so with that being said by thanks guys love. You mean a e.

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November 15, 2019: Myra Hindley Dies

Today in True Crime

11:43 min | 1 year ago

November 15, 2019: Myra Hindley Dies

"Today is Friday November fifteen th two thousand nineteen on this day in two thousand and two Myra Hindley Co conspirator in the notorious Moors murders died in prison. The murders remained an intense topic of conversation station in the British media over three decades. After her sentence. Hindley's death provoked an intense response from the people of Manchester. You're welcome to today and true crime. I'm up podcast. Original due to the graphic nature of today's crimes listener discretion is advised extreme. Caution is advised for listeners under thirteen gene. Today we're covering the death of Myra Hindley who alongside her domestic partner in Brady was responsible for a series of murders orders in and around Manchester England. After thirty six years behind bars and multiple pleased for release Myra Hindley died in a West Suffolk Hospital of respiratory failure. Before we discussed the horrific details and fallout of Hindley and Brady's crimes. Let's explore the events leading up to Henley's demise on November fifteen. Th Two thousand two. Myra was having difficulty reading. She clutched the papers in front of her. Eyes is but the words blurred on the page. She blinked an attempted to focus. She knew every word of what she'd written but she had to be sure. This stack of papers was the key to her escape. A spasm ran from her chest down to the very tips of her fingers. She was used to chest. Pains this bland. Prison Diet was barely fit for human consumption and definitely wasn't doing her any good but these pangs four something far worse than indigestion. She gritted her teeth. She was so close she couldn't fall ill now oh not. When she was so near Freedom Myra was still upright when the prison guards found her they could tell from her shivering and barely suppressed whimpers that she was not well staying as calm as she could? She told them that she wanted to see the warden. She he had something to give him. The guards escorted her out. But instead of going to the warden's office they led her to an ambulance before four. They shut the door. She forced her statement into one of the guards hands. MIRA's breath rasped in and out every inhalation. Shen grew harder and harder today. The drive to West Suffolk Hospital felt far longer than the usual twenty minutes. The road stretched out behind the ambulance into the darkness. Myra found herself thinking back to the night when it began when her our life took. Its inexorable turn thirty nine years earlier. Myra hadn't thought she would end up in prison. All she wanted wanted to do was appeased the man she loved and what he wanted was to commit the perfect murder. It was a strange night. The first time they killed someone Myra drove the van Ian was behind her on his motorbike when he spotted the perfect target he'd flash flashes headlights and she would pull over. Myra turned onto Gorton Lane. The street was strangely quiet. A girl oral came into sight just ahead of them on the sidewalk. She must have been only eight years old behind her. Brady's lights flashed Myra grip the steering wheel and took a deep breath in the girl grew in her view until they were practically alongside her and and then mirus breath caught in her throat. She knew this girl. Her parents lived next door to Myers mother. Myra pressed pressed her foot on the accelerator and drove past the child. Who did not even look up? Myra looked to the rear view mirror. Ian Headlights were still there. She couldn't see his expression through the glare. She hoped he wouldn't be mad. He had to understand if they knew the victim The murder could be traced back to them. It would not be the perfect crime. She was sure would understand. And if he didn't Myra would face his wrath not this little girl Myra ambulance came to a sudden stop shaking her out of her memory and back into the horrible present where she could barely breathe. As far as she knew Ian was still in Ashworth she. She was determined to outlive him. He had killed her chance of parole years earlier but he would not stop her this time. Not once the warden saw what she had written she would be free inside the hospital. This thought kept upped. Her going she lost track of time. Had it been days or weeks. Doctors came and went in a hazy blur they poked poked and prodded and then they were joined by a priest. When Myra saw him her blood ran cold he was there to give her? Last rites up next Myra Hindley sentence comes is to an end. Hey friend I want to tell you about the new three dollar little John from Jimmy Johns a skinny mini version of any original sandwich for only three bucks. It's littler than a regular sandwich which is perfect if you're not super hungry or if you WANNA try a couple of different sandwiches bore if you like bragging that your lunch only cost three dollars order at three dollar Littlejohn at Jimmy. John's dot com or with the Jimmy John's APP participating locations taxes delivery fees. Extra now back to the story on November Fifteenth Eighteenth. Two Thousand and two sixty year old. Myra Hindley died in West Suffolk Hospital. She'd been admitted earlier that day for respiratory issues as she was escorted from her prison she handed over a series of handwritten documents to one of the guards they were an exhaustive catalogue catalogue of physical and psychological abuses Ian Brady. Her former lover had inflicted upon her to force her to aid him in the Moors murderers murderer's she hoped it would persuade justice to commute her life sentence. It was not the first time Henley had attempted to secure her own freedom. But it would be the last the Moors murderers were one of the most notorious serial killings in British history. Sorry between one thousand nine hundred sixty three and nineteen sixty five Ian Brady and Myra Hindley kidnapped five miners ranging from ten into seventeen years old. All of them were later killed and at least four of them were sexually assaulted by Brady. Henley's involvement in the killings remained unclear. Even after both of the killers had been caught Hindley maintained that Brady did the actual killing for for her part. She merely lured and trapped the miners however during the trial. A sixteen minute tape recording of one of their victims was was played in it. Were the voices of the victim. Brady and Myra Hindley as well. The recording indicated that Hindley treated the victim with callous disdain similar to that of her partner who she insisted was the true mastermind. Myra Hindley was subsequently sequentially known by the press as the most evil woman in Britain during her time in prison. She attempted to convince the public that she had reformed and felt guilt for her actions but her frequent attempts to shorten her release were unsuccessful Brady Eighty e even wrote the Home Secretary to thwart her efforts for an early release it appeared there was no love lost between them. Correspondence between Hindley and Brady ceased in nineteen seventy one and Henley began a relationship with a female warden in her prison forensic psychologist Just doctor Chris Cowley interviewed in Brady and number of times over the years when asked how a couple could get away with these kinds of murders in the nineteen sixties. He's he said. In nineteen sixties Britain. People did not kidnap and murder children for fun it was simply beyond the realms of most most people's comprehension and this is why they managed to get away with it for so long. The body of their third victim. Keith Bennett has never been found. It's believed he's buried somewhere in the Moore's but without either brady or Hindley to guide searches. Finding the the body seems practically impossible. Thanks for listening today in true crime. I'm Vanessa Richardson for more information. On the life of Myra Hindley check out the podcast original original serial killers episodes on the Moors murders or the female criminals episodes on Hindley herself. Today in true crime is a podcast our cast original. You can find more episodes of today in true crime and all other podcast originals for free on spotify. Not only to spotify already. Have all of your favorite Britt music but now spotify making it easy for you to enjoy. All of your favorite park asked originals like today and true crime for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker seeker to stream today in true crime on spotify. Just open the APP and type today in true crime in the search bar at par cast. Were grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network work. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in True Crime Today. In true crime was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media media. And is part of the podcast network it is produced by Max and Ron Cutler sound designed by Russell Nash With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro. Paul Paul Moller Maggie Admire and Freddie. Beckley this episode of today in True Crime was written by Robert Teams draw. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

Myra Hindley Myra Ian Brady Myra Hindley Co Freedom Myra murder Myra ambulance Henley West Suffolk Hospital spotify West Suffolk Hospital of respi van Ian partner Manchester Pains Ian Headlights Paul Paul Moller Maggie Admire Jimmy John Max Cutler Manchester England
The Moors Murders

Murder Minute

19:45 min | 2 years ago

The Moors Murders

"Welcome to the murder minute podcast today, the story of the moors murders. But I your true crime headlines. A southern California man is being held without bail after gunning down the mother of his child during a child custody exchange at a police station. The accused murderer thirty year old Jacob Ryan Munn dropped off his seventeen month old son at the Hawthorne police station sometime before six PM last Sunday. Then retrieved a shotgun from his vehicle, and waited when the child's mother twenty eight year old Brenda renter RIA, arrived to pick up her child a short time later. She was gunned down. She approached the front door of the police station. The victim's mother who had accompanied her daughter to the police station was not injured after the shooting Munn fled the scene in his vehicle. He was apprehended about three hours later if convicted he could face the death penalty to men in a Portland suburb called nine one one to report that a burglar was hiding in the bathroom of the home where they were house sitting they had briefly left their nephew's house to walk his dog upon returning. They could hear commotion in the bathroom and see a shadow of a suspect moving under the door. Police canine units descended on the home. They ordered the suspect to open the locked bathroom door but got no response. With guns drawn, they broke down the door and encountered they're suspect, which turned out to be a room vacuum cleaner repeatedly knocking against the shower door. The Washington county sheriff's office shared the tail on their Facebook page, along with a photo of the robotic vacuum cleaner stamped with the word captured and red letters and body, Cam footage of. Officers apprehending their suspect. Minneapolis man is being held on first degree attempted murder charges after throwing a five year old boy, over third floor railing at the mall of America last week, twenty four year old Emanuel Ronda told police that he had gone to the mall, intending to kill an adult but instead grabbed a boy who was outside a cafe on the third floor with his mother, a Rhonda, approached them grabbed the child and dropped him thirty nine feet to the ground causing life threatening injuries. A Rondo told police he had been coming to the mall for years, trying to talk to women and was frustrated and angered by their rejection. He had previously been banned from the same all for confrontations with shoppers and damaging property. His bail has been set at two million dollars. The boy remains in critical condition with multiple broken bones, and severe head trauma to Texas teenagers are facing capital murder charges after murdering a fifty three year old woman during a robbery of her home. The victim was the mother of one of the alleged. Killers the accused Daniel Saito and Matthew Dempsey both eighteen used Dempsey's key to enter the home of his mother. Mary, Helen Dempsey intending to burglarize it. They began gathering items from around the home, preparing to steal them. When Mary Dempsey unexpectedly returned she turned on her kitchen. Lighten was immediately attacked by her son, who beat her repeatedly with a baseball, bat and slit her throat with a kitchen knife. They then bound her with duct tape and covered her body with a blanket, leaving it on the living room floor. They loaded the stolen items into the victims car and fled the scene later withdrawing money from her Bank account at an ATM win. The victim did not show up for work and could not be reached her concerned employers, contacted Dempsey's daughter who went to her mother's home and discovered her car, missing, and her body concealed under the bloody blanket win. Authorities questioned Matthew Dempsey at his mobile home, a short time later, they discovered bloody clothing concealed. Trash bag at his residence. Matthew Dempsey and his girlfriend were subsequently arrested and Dempsey's girlfriend told police that he had confessed to her that he killed his mother SALCEDO was arrested a short time later and both men are being held on one million dollar bond. Oh, Wisconsin teenager has been charged with two counts of first degree murder for the killing of his grandparents last weekend Alexander Krause called nine one one on Sunday and told the dispatcher that he had just killed his grandparents and needed to be arrested by police when an officer entered the home in grand chute. They found seventy four year old Dennis Krause and his seventy three year old wife, Leith lying dead on their kitchen floor. Each of the victims had been shot in the head in a bedroom in the home. Police found a red folder with Alexander's typed out plans for the killing, he also told investigators that he had intended to cause harm at Nina high school where he was a junior. The seventeen year old is facing two counts of first degree intentional homicide and faces life in prison. If convicted a drifter who became a viral sensation six years ago is now on trial for murder in New Jersey, Caleb, McGill, -very, also known as. Guide the hatchet willing hitchhiker rose to fame after a six minute profanity Laden interview with a local news station in Fresno, after he warned an attack on two women by taking out there, Salem with a hatchet in February of twenty thirteen the clip has been viewed more than seven million times on YouTube and turned the frizzy haired hitchhiker into an instant celebrity. He remained off the grid continuing to wander around the country, and eventually crossed paths with a seventy three year old attorney named Joseph gal fi in may of the same year. The two met in Times Square, drank beers together, and then gal fi invited McGill to sleep in the guest room of his New Jersey home. He stayed with gal fi the next night as well and alleges that on the second night, Galthie drugged and raped him. And he fought back in self-defense gal fi was found dead, the next day after failing to report to work, and investigators found information on golfie cell. Phone linking him to McGill, who had written a post on his Facebook page, claiming that he had been assaulted. Police apprehended McGill re at a Starbucks in Philadelphia a few days after galaxies death. He has pleaded not guilty. Those are your true crime headlines. For more headlines, checkout, the murder minute app in the app store and Google play. Or follow us on Instagram at murder minute. Coming up next. The story of the moors murders but first, a quick break. Our story begins January of nineteen sixty one where Millward's merchandise a small chemical distributor in Manchester England was the workplace of two peculiar people to people that didn't seem to quite fit in with our coworkers the I was eaten Brady he was known to keep himself, and be a generally quiet man. His coworker said that despite his quiet demeanor. He was prone to frequent outbursts, and as if that wasn't enough, he had an obsession with Hitler's Mein cough that he kept hidden from his peers. However, the list doesn't stop there. Brady was also obsessed with fantasies of death in violence and fittingly. The Nazi regime's, countless, atrocities, our second strange yet, quite employee was Myra Hindley. She was the news employees at Millward's having began a job. As a typist that month. Unlike Brady Henley showed no warning signs that she would become a devious killer despite having a rough childhood and Lee was similar to many of her co-workers the biggest difference, though. She took an immediate liking to Brady. It wasn't long before she began to idolize him from afar and within months, she finally mustered up the courage to speak to him a few more months went by until they went on their first date from there. There was no turning back the relationship develops quickly with both of them diving into deep discussions centered around their violent fantasies. However, the fantasies weren't enough to keep them satisfied. They wanted to kill not because they had hatred in their hearts sought revenge or wanted to be criminals. But because they had long for death for the sake of death. So they walked the streets of Manchester stocking anyone that appeal to them. And search. Of their victim. That's when they spotted their target sixteen year old Pauline read a friend of Henley's younger sister was the unfortunate victim. The pair chose her solely because they believe that her death would not be seriously investigated. It seemed like there was spot on as on July twelfth nineteen sixty three she vanished leaving no trace behind. No one had seen Pauline prior to her disappearance in little move forward in terms of an official search until it was too late Brady and Hindley had already taken Pauline in their van and headed out of town towards Santa worth more once the pair had driven far enough outta town. Brady slip Pauline's throat twice with a large knife. She bled out on the moors as Brady and Henley sexually assaulted her. They buried her body with a blue coat and white heels, she was wearing and drove back into town as if nothing had happened. The couple had finally acted out their fantasy of taking. The life the satisfaction didn't last long immediately. They began to plan their next kill the target twelve year old John Kilbride in November nineteen sixty three Brady and Henley, rented a car pulled up a side John. They offered him a ride home, but he was hesitant. However, after giving him a bottle of Sherry, he agreed and got in the car not long into the ride Brady told, John, that they had to make a stop on the more because he lost his glove in Nita John's help finding it was. They arrived the same sequence happened again. Brady attack, John in tempted to slit, his throat, he was unsuccessful which led to sexually assaulting John Kilbride before strangling him with shoelace to immortalize the moment, Brady photograph. Henley closing of the young boys grave this time. They're high is lasted longer. It wasn't for another year and a half until the couple struck. Again. Their target. This time was twelve year old Keith Bennett. Keith was running late on his way to his grandmother's. House Brady and Henley now noticing the boys frantic nece offered him a ride as with the previous two victims Myra nails. That there is a stop in the Moore's, they had to make. Once they got their Brady told Keith that they were looking for his lost glove, and much like the other victims. They sexually assaulted the child before murdering him. It wasn't until the summer of nineteen sixty four that Brady buried Keith area, the Moore's that is believed to be where the other victims were buried in this case he's body was never found. But his family has continued to search for it over fifty years later, three murders. Weren't enough for Brady and Hindley before the end of nineteen sixty four they spotted ten year old Lesley, Ann Downey, standing alone by a ride at the fairground, and they were set to make her their next victim. They approached the young girl and ask. If she could help carry some things to their car, she agreed without worry. And when they asked if she could come home with them to help them unload, she got in the car. Unlike the previous killings the pair carried out the murder within the confines of their own home, Leslie was bound, gagged and forced to pose for photographs. The same story repeated itself as Lesley Ann Downey was raped and strangled. The next day, the pair, drove her body to the moors where she was buried near the other victims by the middle of nineteen sixty five braiding Henley seemed to be in the clear despite their horrific actions searches had occurred, but no one suspected them. As a matter of fact, nobody had tried to link any of the disappearances emerged together. Then the murder of Edward Evans occurred and sparked a change on Tober six Brady met Edward Evans at Manchester central railway station for this murder. Brady and Henley decided to expand their group and include Henley's brother-in-law David Smith, the to manage to get Evans back to their home, where Smith was called over. Once he arrived Brady attacked Evans. He struck him over the head with a blunt end of an axe, and then strangled Evans with an electrical cord Smith assisted Brady in disposing, the body and all seem to have gone, according to plan, however, the guilt began to creep in on Smith the next day Smith all the police and the pairs plan to expand their circle failed on October. Seventh nineteen sixty five in Brady was arrested while Meyer Henley was released the same day after claiming that Evans staff was an accident, although she was released. It didn't take long as on October eleventh, just four days later, she joined Brady and custody. The two would never be released even though they were now in custody, the full extent of what, Ian. Brady and Meyer Henley did was not clear. They were arrested only for the murder Edward Evans, which both claimed to have been an accident. At the time neither was a suspect in any of the other desks. They had acted out as a police began to investigate the story emerged in the true horror of the pairs actions was revealed the police began their search at the railway station where Brady Lert Evans Brady made a crucial mistake and didn't claim luggage with police opened it. They found nine pieces of child pornography. The pieces were photos of Leslie and Downey it wasn't until that moment that braiding Henley became suspects in her disappearance with these new pieces of evidence servicing the police had enough to suspect that braiding Henley were responsible for more murders, the police searched their house and found a notebook with the name of John Kilbride the suspicions of the police grew. And the began to wonder how many disappearances the couple was connected to the big breakthrough was when a large collection of photographs of Brady and Henley at saddle. Worth more was found from there. The hunt was on over one hundred fifty officers combed location in the pictures in search of clues in less than a week. They found their first body. It was Lesley, Ann Downey, who is easily identified by site. It wasn't long until they found the body of John Kilbride, the body had been so badly decomposed that he could only be identified by the clothes he was wearing the day he disappeared on the same day. John's body was found Brady Henley appeared before a judge. But we're only facing the accusation of the murder of Lesley, Ann Downey, two months later, they were officially accused of the murders of Lesley, Ann Downey and Edward Evans, each pled, not guilty. The police called on the payer to provide evidence, and when they did Brady spoke for eight hours while Henley spoke for six they stuck to their previous statements and denied all the charges against them. They claim. That the death of Edward Evans was an accident, and that they were in no way linked to the others. Their stories crumbled at the trial, when an audio recording of Lesley Ann Downey was played the voices of Brady and Henley were clearly audible, they could be heard forcing her to pose for photographs and threatening violence against her. The two could plead all they want. There is no way to explain this evidence Ian Brady was found guilty on accounts of all three murders. Myra Hindley was acquitted of the murder of Lesley, Ann Downey. She claimed that the murder Kurd while she was elsewhere, the public cried out for both of them to be sentenced to death. But the death penalty had been abolished in the United Kingdom only a few months before their sentencing. It's fair to say that had the death penalty not been repealed. Their fates would have been very different. Brady was handed three consecutive licenses while Henley was handed to licenses plus seven. In years, while Justice was served to their victims had been unaccounted for police had yet to connect them to the deaths of Pauline, read, and Keith Bennett this change when Kice mother when he Johnson wrote a letter to Myra Hindley. In it. She begged Henley to tell her anything she knew about her son's disappearance, though. She and Brady Brin credibly adamant that there were no other killings Henley appeared to be genuinely remorseful. For what she had done in November of nineteen eighty six she agreed to assist the police in searching, the Moore's again for the bodies that they had never uncovered though, they do not find the body of Keith Bennett. They did find the body appalling read. She was less than one hundred yards away from where Leslie Ann, Downey's body was found and only three feet underground, as time went on Myra Henley, downplayed her roles in the killing more and more for years after the trials she claimed that she was only involved in the learning kidnapping of children, leaving Brady alone to commit the murders. This was proved to be not true based on evidence in November two thousand two at the age of sixty Myra Hindley passed away. She. For a brain aneurysm that was linked to repack day, smoking habit. Though, she wished to be cremated twenty undertaker's refused to do. So on the other hand in Brady was not remorseful, and made no attempt to hide his past actions, fully aware that he would never be free again. He felt no need to deny his crimes. In addition to the five children, the pair confessed to murdering he claimed that he and Henley murdered five more, none of the descriptions, he gave matched any unsolved murders. And none of the killings were ever verified in two thousand one he published a book about serial killers, despite protests from his victims families, and has book he stays that. He does not feel remorseful for what he did and denied the claims of insanity and psychosis. He states that he did the killings for the pure, existential experience. In Brady spent fifty two years in prison until he died on September twenty. I two thousand seventeen his dying wish was that his ashes were to be spread across Saddleworth more, however, he was unceremoniously buried at sea. Protrude crime anytime. Download the murder minute app or follow us on Instagram at murder minute.

Brady Lert Evans Brady Brady Henley murder Myra Hindley Ann Downey Edward Evans Matthew Dempsey Keith Bennett John Kilbride Myra Henley Leslie Ann Brady Brin Facebook California Portland officer Jacob Ryan Munn Pauline Moore
The Monster of Worcester

Murder Minute

28:39 min | 2 months ago

The Monster of Worcester

"Welcome to murder minute on. Today's episode the monster of worcester. But i your true crime. Headlines to milwaukee. Teenagers are facing homicide charges in the rape and murder of lee who was brutally beaten and left for dead in washington. Park in september of twenty twenty lee was found unconscious and undressed below the waist in washington park on september sixteenth. Twenty twenty by bystanders. She was still breathing but unresponsive she had been sexually assaulted and suffered severe contusions to the face me later died on september nineteenth due to blunt force trauma to her head to teens seventeen-year-old kamari lewis and fifteen year. Old kevin spencer. Now face one count of first degree intentional homicide and one count of first degree sexual assault for the crime. A criminal complaint said that video showed five to six people potentially involved in the crime running away from the area it appeared that lee had been taken from a blanket to treat where the sexual assault occurred. She was then dragged to the edge of the pond and left for dead video from the washington. Park library showed eleven people leaving the park. Some on bicycles and others on foot. One of them was seventeen year old louis. According to prosecutors one of the bystanders who called nine one one after finding these body was later determined to have actually been in the park during the assault according to the complaint they were walking with some subjects including lewis and spencer when confronted prosecutor said that that witness gave a quote detailed statement indicating that lewis and spencer beat lee and forced her to perform sex acts. The witness said that a video. On lewis's phones showed lewis and spencer beating lee as she lay on the ground a second bystander who found the body said that he witnessed lewis quote hitting leave with tree branches and punching her in the face while spencer also beat the victim after the attack he said quote spencer told kamari to put her in the water and kamari was dragging her to the water. The witness said that he received video of the incident recorded by louis through facebook messenger and later deleted it from his phone on january twelfth. Nearly four months after the crime detectives received a call from the mother of that witness. She told them that she quote may have a video that they would be interested in seeing on his old iphone. sent to her son via facebook. Messenger by louis but later deleted. She said the video showed quote. Two boys beating a lady and you could tell who they were noting quote a lot of other kids standing around. She said they received the video about two days after the incident and she told her son to quote. Get rid of the video. Because it doesn't have anything to do with him adding that he should quote. Stay away from kamari lewis. A witness whose dna was found on a bottle at the scene told investigators that the incident began when he walked into the park with lewis and spencer and they quote solve this lady on a blanket in the park and walked up to her to see if she had any money and started harassing her. He said that lewis and spencer attacked her and dragged her away to the area where the sexual assault happened. He said that he quote didn't want to be involved and started walking away when he was struck by a juice bottle. Thrown by one of the defendants prosecutors said that spencer told the witness that he and bluest beat and raped. Leigh according to the complaint lewis quote tried to downplay his role in the incident telling investigators that spencer and others did most of the beating lewis even claimed quote incredibly. The complaint noted that lee quote volunteered to have sex with the defendant and others present but other people came around and the group started beating her. Despite the video evidence the complaint said that lewis suggested spencer was quote the most aggressive and that he beat lee more brutally as more people gathered. Dna from both lewis and spencer were found on lease denim jacket and on her body prosecutors. Say that lewis in all admitted to beating lee sexually assaulting we and leaving leave for dead near the pond and not calling for help noting that he thought he was dead and quote. Didn't really care about her because she's not someone he knows personally in washington a thirty seven year old redmond area man has been under guard at harborview medical center in seattle where he is being treated for a self inflicted injury after king. County sheriff's deputies responded to a domestic violence disturbance tuesday and found the man's eight year old son dead inside their home. The king county medical examiner's office identified the boy thursday as mahan malda and concluded that he died from a cut to his neck. The boy's death has been ruled a homicide just before eight. Am tuesday. Sheriff's deputies responded to a domestic violence call at a house in the unincorporated english hill neighborhood. East of redmond inside. They found the child dead and his father. Suffering from non life threatening self inflicted injury. No other family members were hurt. The boys homicide is being investigated by detectives assigned to the sheriff's major crimes unit. A massachusetts man already serving multiple life sentences in a rhode island prison for double homicide has been indicted in connection with another killing that occurred nearly a decade ago. Thirty five year old. Nigel nichols faces murder and other charges in the number twenty eleven shooting in providence. That took the life of stephen latimer and injured three others. According to a statement from attorney general. Peter naronha nichols was previously convicted in two thousand fifteen of the killings of david thomas and domingo ortiz in providence in december of two thousand nine is currently serving four consecutive life sentences plus a consecutive thirty year sentence for murder and other charges related to that shooting prosecutors. Now say that in the early morning hours of october second twenty eleven nichols who was in a vehicle pulled up alongside another moving vehicle and opened fire. Killing latimer and injuring three others in the car nichols will be arraigned on the new charges at a later. Date those your true crime headlines up next the monster booster but first a quick break here at murder minute. We focus on the facts and skipped the chitchat. But sometimes there's more to the story conflicting reports rumors theories unverifiable witness accounts. And more. now you can join us. Live every saturday as we dissect and discuss every detail during our weekly murder minute. Postmortem only on stereo stereo is a free live broadcast social platform that enables people to have real conversations in real time on stereo. You can ask me questions about the case. Tell me your theories and even suggest stories for future episodes murder. Minute is excited to offer you this killer new way to interact with us. Join us saturday's for a life. Murder minute post mortem on the stereo download the free stereo app and select murder minute so that you can connect with us whenever ever. We're live go to stereo dot com slash murder minute to get started and stay tuned for more details on how to join us on stereo at the end of today's episode. Welcome back to murder minute. David anthony mcgreevy was born in nineteen fifty one in southport to thomas and bella mcgreevy and he was the second of six children. David's father thomas was a sergeant in the royal signals so the family moved from military base to military base often. According to his mother bella some of their happiest years were spent in germany and by all accounts the mcgreevey children at a normal happy upbringing. David was a well behaved and well adjusted child. David once stole his mother's shopping money so that he could go on a trip to liverpool while the family were living in cardiff but apart from that his mother bella never noticed any red flags in one thousand nine hundred sixty seven at age sixteen. David decided to continue his family's military tradition. He left school and joined the royal navy where he hoped to make a career but it wouldn't last in the late sixties. David was stationed at portsmouth naval bay and joined his first ship. The hms eagle where his cocky arrogant attitude and lack of discipline often got him into trouble with his superiors. He also developed a drinking problem while station in pembroke. Scher he broke into an officer's borough and set fire to been of papers. David claimed that he had accidentally dropped a cigarette. But witnesses said that he had been agitated and drunk on duty. He was court martialled and for his negligence was sentenced to ninety days. Detention and psychiatric testing. In one thousand. Nine hundred seventy one. David mcgreevy began exchanging letters with a woman named mary and within a week of meeting her he proposed marriage. David's parents bella and thomas disapproved of the relationship. But mary would turn out to be the least of their problems. In august of nineteen seventy-one the twenty year old was dismissed from the navy and landed on their doorstep in worcestershire. David attempted to find employment and briefly worked as a cook and laborer but could never seem to hold down a job due to his arrogant attitude and his alcoholism but being broke didn't stop him from planning a big wedding. Mary would have settled for something mask. She would have settled for a registry office. Ceremony said criminologist dr elizabeth yardley. David was quite determined that they were going to have this big church wedding and i think it will became quite real at this point. This young man who wants to marry her. Who's obsessed with having this big wedding. And she actually called it off on new year's eve of nineteen seventy-one by january of nineteen seventy-two. David had lost the job and the girl was unemployed with no prospects and was living with his parents depressed. David again turned to alcohol. And after months of living rent-free his parents kicked him out. That's win david mcgreevy booth in with this brand clyde ralph and his pregnant wife elsie clive and elsie lived in a small two bedroom home on gillum street and already had two small children. The couple had married in september of nineteen sixty eight when elsie at age sixteen became pregnant with their first child. Paul their next child dawn followed soon. After in. nineteen seventy-one. Clive was five years older than elsie and worked as a lorry driver or his father. Elsie worked as a barmaid at the punch bowl tavern. We lived in a cul de sac. There was about ten houses in this cul de sac and there was children in every house and it was one of those places where everybody left their door open for anybody to come in and out and everybody looked after everybody else would later be call. David came to live with us because he had an argument with his parents or something. And that's how it all started to earn his keep. David picked up work at a factory. Paid six pounds per week for rant occasionally cooked sunday dinner and babysat the children. When elsie and clive were working in september of nineteen seventy-two elsie gave birth to the couple's third child. Another daughter samantha. The arrangement seem to be working out. Well david seem to love the kids. And according to elsie acted like a father to everyone knew david knew that he loved the children recalled. Thomas mccreevy david's father. David shared a bedroom. With paul elsie recalled samantha was only little so she was still in a little cradle and then dawn had another bed with us as the time was going on. We were going to look for bigger place anyway. But it didn't get that part. On friday the thirteenth of april hundred seventy three elsie was working. Her shift at the punch bowl and david was out drinking at books. He'll pop after several pints of beer around of darts and a small altercation after david put his cigarette out in his friends beer. Clive picked david up from the pump and drove him back home to look after the children while he went to pick up. Elsie from work. When clive ralph left around eleven pm the children were all asleep. When he and elsie returned home an hour later they were gone. And so was david mccreevy at one. Twenty a m police found them. The three children were impaled on the iron railings of a neighbor spins at three or five. Am police found david in nearby lansdowne road. What's this all about. He asked as they arrested him but within hours he confessed it all started. He said when nine month old samantha wouldn't stop crying. I put my hand across her mouth and carried on from there. David said she would die of a skull fracture. Then he slit the throat to two year old dawn for your old paul. He said he strangled with a wire. All i could hear is kids. Kids fucking kids. He said after the children were dead. He then mutilated their bodies with a pickaxe and then pay them on the neighbor's fence. It was all too bloody gruesome. David said it was me but it was not me. How could i do it. Detective superintendant bob booth said of the crime quote. No investigating officer has ever had to witness such a scene of indescribable horror. When police asked david mcgreevy why he had killed the children. He replied that's what i have been trying to figure out. If i hadn't been at work. They would still be here. Elsie said but i couldn't understand how it had happened. David was amazing with the children. I can't recognize the man who did those things to my children. The press dubbed. David mcgreevy the monster of worcester two months. Later on june twenty eighth nineteen seventy-three the monster pleaded guilty to the murders in a hearing that lasted just eight minutes and in july of nineteen seventy-three. David mcgreevy was sentenced. The judge in the case. Mr justice ashworth said quote. There's only one sentence. I can pass and that is life imprisonment but in this case so appalling to the crown and in the public interest so grave as to risk any repetition. I recommend the sentence should not elapse before twenty years. Elsie never returned to their home. She went to stay at her. Sister's house and clive went back to his parents. We just stopped talking to one another. I couldn't cope with the idea of going on without my children. Elsie said the couple eventually divorced he might as well have killed me said elsie. I lost my children my husband my home my sanity. Everything because of him elsie went on to remarry but she had no more children. I'd had complications with my third pregnancy. So i couldn't have anymore. She said i wouldn't have done anyway. Nothing could replace what i had because they were perfect behind bars. The monster of worcester was under constant threat from his fellow. Inmates and as a result of numerous attacks and death threats spent the better part of four decades in protected. Conditions in two thousand six. David was transferred to an open prison and was photographed by the sun on day. Release in liverpool. When i saw the pictures i was almost sick said elsie. I couldn't believe he was on the streets around people around children. Victims support explained. Mcgreevy was eligible to apply for parole. Then i knew. I would never rest until he was dead. Mike foster than mp for worcester agreed. He believed that david mccreavy should be permanently. Banned from returning to the area were indescribable. Acts of brutality. That still sick and the people of worcester when they recollect the events he said my gut instinct is that this man should spend the rest of his life in prison. His crimes were just as terrible as those of other notorious killers. Such as myra hindley and ian brady for whom life rightly meant life. After the pictures were published. David mcgreevy received more death threats and went back to a closed prison for his own safety. In two thousand nine david mcgreevy applied for an anonymity order during his parole board proceedings. His parole was denied but the anonymity order was granted and the decision by the high court of justice was criticised in the british press. Secretary of state for justice agreed arguing that setting such a precedent would prevent coverage for dangerous criminals. In two thousand thirteen. The anonymity order was overturned. The guardian wrote quote the challenge to the gagging order by the media supported by the justice. Secretary argued it was legally flawed and wrongly prevented the public from knowing the full facts of the case the press association had previously warned. The high court that allowing anonymity in this case would set a precedent for other high profile prisoners to seek similar orders. The justice secretary. Welcome to the ruling saying quote. This is a clear. Victory for open to the public has every right to know when serious offenders are taking legal action on matters which relate to their imprisonment in twenty sixteen david mcgreevy again applied for parole and again failed but in december of twenty eighteen sixty seven year old. David mcgreevy was cleared for release. The report said that after forty five years in prison he had changed considerably quote. He has developed self control as well as considerable understanding of the problems that he has had and what caused them. The psychologist identified a number of factors. Which make it less likely that mr mccreevy will re-offend in the future. These included his improved self control and the fact that mr machribie has learned to remain calm in stressful situations. He has also shown himself to be compliant and cooperative with authority which suggests that he will comply with license conditions. A network of supportive friends in the community was also identified as a protective factor. The parole board said quote. We can confirm that. A panel of the parole board has directed the release of david mcgreevy following an oral hearing. When elsie received the news. she broke down. How can it be right that the parole board can decide. He served his sentence when mine will never ever end she asked. I see my children's faces every night. When i close my eyes and tried to sleep aboard document referred to a victim personal statement by elsie quote setting out the devastating effect that these deaths had on her and still do have but it made no difference. Parole board decisions quote are solely focused on whether a prisoner would represent a significant risk to the public after. Release the board said the panel will have carefully looked at a whole range of evidence including details of the original evidence and any evidence of behavior change. We do that with great care. They said and public safety is our number one priority. After ten years of living in fear of his release and fighting to prevent it elsie felt betrayed. What this did to my children was every bit as bad as with the moors. Murderers did elsie told us on. But ian brady and myra hindley never left prison before they died. So why the hell should he. He put my babies on spikes. For god's sake he mutilated them and they died in. I wanted him dead and to suffer like they had but was reassured after his trial that his crime was so terrible that he would never walk free. What mother could feel safe knowing that a bastard like that is out there who knows when and where his switch will flick again he can never be safe on the streets c. Said they may come to regret this and can't say i didn't warn them. This has been murder minute for true crime anytime. Download the murder minute app and follow us on instagram facebook and stereo at murder minute. Join us every saturday at three. Pm pacific standard time for a murder. Minute post mortem hear more about the case. Tell us your theories ask questions and more only on stereo stereo app users can engage with the platform to listen in and join conversations about issues and ideas that interest. You like comedy pop culture lifestyle sports and of course true crime stereo can be downloaded for free by apple and android users. Once you downloaded the app create your avatar and profile so that you can send me audio messages in real time. Every saturday during mid post mortem here at burger minute we focus on the facts no theories and no chitchat. But sometimes there's more to the story conflicting reports rumors and unverifiable with accounts. Join us as we discuss them. All live every saturday at three. Pm pacific for our weekly murder minute. Postmortem only on stereo download stereo free at get started at. Www dot stereo dot com slash murder. Minute that's s. t. e. r. e. dot com slash murder minute.

spencer lewis David elsie lee kamari lewis kamari David mcgreevy david mcgreevy Elsie kevin spencer worcester louis david washington bella mahan malda redmond Nigel nichols stephen latimer
Amateur Hour - A Prologue

My Gothic Dissertation

17:54 min | 10 months ago

Amateur Hour - A Prologue

"It's May fourth, two, thousand, seventeen, and I'm in room three eleven the English philosophy building. Room three eleven is a windowless closet crowded with a conference table, enrolling chairs that currently contain the five members of my dissertation committee, a Radio Scholar, a romance assist an eighteenth century, education theorist and Victoria. Honest, so we're here to. Respect, this and I welcome. And we're we're. We're interested in racing constructor questions that will help you with clarifying focus the scope in the process because the process so is so interesting. It's the job of these five people to advise me over the next month or more likely years as I write my dissertation, which is the only thing standing between me and my doctorate? An English what we're here to discuss. Today isn't my dissertation, Per Se, but rather my perspective's a Microsoft word document spanning anywhere from six to twenty pages that describes the dissertation. The one I haven't written yet. In this way, think of the prospectus. As a sort of dissertation permission slip a sheet of paper that once signed allows me to climb on board, the bus and head into the field of academic literary criticism. And if I don't earn my committee signatures at the end of this. Then I guess I'm going to have to stay behind and eat my backlash all by myself. It's expected that a Grad student will take anywhere from three to six months to write a prospectus after passing the comprehensive exam I passed mine in March of two thousand sixteen. If hobbling out, alive can be called passing so when I still hadn't managed to scrape together perspectives by that. December things weren't looking good for me. It was time floundering false starts avoiding run INS with advisors, who I imagined, either pitied despised me for my helplessness, and coming up with ever more elaborate jargon, ridden descriptions of my project to mask the fact that it didn't exist, and maybe never would. Whenever, anyone would ask me what my dissertation was about. I'd answer something like. it's rumination on the complexities of the Dialectic Elitism, knowledge and episode cultures, and how that dialectic has shaped modern notions of. And academic work. It was in short. A time of total bullshit. All of this baggage I carried with me into the windowless closet, and so it seemed especially alarming when the meeting started out like this. Redo, do. Talk Ourselves. To just don't do that, we can't. Do that. So just for a few come. In case, you missed it just after the meeting began. I was asked to leave the meeting. I smiled and nodded out of the room, making sure to grab my notebook so I could jot down a few thoughts for posterity. Well thought. But. Sutton! The term perspective dates back to the eighteenth century, and while the Oxford English dictionary says it's technically a document setting out the details of suggested enterprise or forthcoming publication. It also has residences of the wild frontier. Of Mining for precious metals. Think of the familiar old prospector character, some grey haired, old man, whistler recklessly devoted to the mad gamble of. An enterprise situated somewhere between the American dream and a delusional treasure hunt. He's Wiseman from years of hard. Labor has likely developed a drinking problem and so full of Tall Tales and baffling knowledge that it's hard for him to relate to anyone other than his fellow prospectors. Isn't this exactly what I've become? If to prospect is to survey a place in search of something valuable to make sense of terrain that can be as wild, and is expansive the American West then in the case of the Grad student, prospecting means convincing the five people sitting around the conference table that you've staked out a corner of the vast landscape of. And literary criticism that with your trustee, well-worn tools of synthesis and analysis you contain into some kind of order you can uncover something entirely new and valuable that at the moment no one else can see. You can pull gold out of a mountain of rock. But only if they'll let you try. So here I am an old prospector, a Cardigan and sensible heels waiting in the hallway while my committee deliberates. Besides cursing into my notebook I also spent some time. What else speculating specifically about what they may be saying in there about me? And unlike usual Grad, student for whom this will remain a mystery for life, I now know exactly what they said. In my absence, because with their permission. Of course, the tape was rolling the whole time in room three eleven. The sacred rites of the perspectives meeting. We're being recorded for maybe the first time in history. In, their according I can hear myself leave, and then a few seconds later, these words of support from the romance assists. Are. Just imagining response on trying to like just get us to like so I. I can imagine different. This is a complicated thing. It's like a new format. That's the other thing as if writing a dissertation wasn't hard enough I'm making it even tougher on myself by trying this new format. But more on that later on super excited about the new format. And I. Have confidence in her. Coffee best can imagine reservations. People might have about this I can imagine their reservations to you because some of them weren't shy about telling me in the weeks leading up to the meeting after going down countless dead ends and abandoning numerous topics I sensed I was losing any glimmer of credibility. I still clung to after cops so around March I finally landed on something and really forced myself to forge ahead on it. Victorian amateurism. As in the growing culture of people in Victorian England who were devoted to some non academic non-professional pursuit of knowledge. Like the society, the Antiquarians or the truth of amateur archaeologists, roaming the globe with their shovels and pickaxes. I wanted to say that we had something to learn from this. Amateurs does lovers of something which is a term by the way the came into the English lexicon right around the start of the nineteenth century, exactly the period I wanted to study, so that seems significant. Unlike me, facing down the hyper professionalized world of literary scholarship with all of this debilitating anxiety for these amateurs I wanted to argue knowledge production was pleasurable, something done without fear and free from institutional constraints. And while there may be some benefits to this regulatory system that included meetings like this one. At the same time I wanted to say. We were losing sight of what makes literature matter in the first place for the amateurs. Their perception of what knowledge was was something less rigid. It didn't need to fit into a tiny box of academic specialization didn't need to depends on approval from others. Even get off. The ground didn't need to follow Arcane. Rules created by the demands of a highly exclusive job market. In short what we needed to learn from amateurs was how to undo the system that culminated in the writing of a dissertation. Nothing I was asking permission to do. It didn't go over too well. Here are the Victorian. An eighteenth century EST-. I. Done. Whatever happens from the. Okay! It's only been five months and she's exactly right. But still. That one was hard to hear. I've already gone through all my fears objections with her. She's resisted those. I'm on board. Supporting fierce objections, she's resisted them. It happens with everybody. Here in lies, the double edged sword, constantly been pressing against me as I've been trying to write this dissertation. What this project is supposedly designed to do is make me an independent scholar, an expert in my field, deserving of the title doctor, but the way I have to complete this project and self reliance, and independence is by being dependent on my committee for approval at every step, which is. Not So self reliance at all actually. Four minutes later. I'm back in the room. Material, so the first question is kind of like a really traditional dissertation rushing that is. Can you tell us a little bit about what's you need in your reading of these nineteenth century albums you'll be talking to. Yeah! Well I think I my reading of Frankenstein. Ritual my reading of Frankenstein is pretty original. I mean I think it is, but that's also absolutely what I have to say at this moment. Because that's what literary scholars do. Come up with readings that are original. Through each of my other four planned dissertation chapters and explain how those are original, too. But even still there was this kind of glitch happening in my brain where I wanted to do more than just offer new readings of literary texts. I wanted to use those readings of literary text to something larger, more meaningful about Victorian culture or really about our culture. This wasn't working for the eighteen centrist. inter-parliamentary right at piece of social history on the other hand or trying to. Select literally. And it becomes very unclear. Instill is I think if you move through which is in service of the other. wife. Basically saying that I seem to be confused about the uses of literature what reading it can and can't do. That glitch I was talking about. His literary cultural history close reading the few select. To do these traditional station as traditional station perspectives, this has. Problems. YIKES! He was right. At this point, one of the major reasons, I wasn't bouncing along with my peers on the bus to academic professionalism is that I started asking myself these questions like. What is the point of a PhD in English? What does it mean to be an expert in Victorian literature? And is it even really possible to be one? Maybe most scary of all is that I started to wonder like one of my own embittered genetic students. Why we even re literature at all. I sought how. I went around asking all of my professors this question. What is the purpose of literary criticism? The closest I got to the truth or maybe the closest I got to a genuine candidate answer came from a professor, who, over the years had expressed her own frustrations with the academic system and its various oppressions her answer. No one can tell you because no one fucking knows. It was like hearing. Someone else acknowledged that guests. In fact, the emperor was prancing around with no clothes. Despite my existential doubts, and my awkward fumbling answers, I, made it through the meeting. I passed. But it wasn't easy, and there were more moments like this one who are not developing year a suitable framework suggestion text is making an argument for texts. Authors are. the author is. One thing. In My permission slip I had written a sentence that began with the text argues. As in within the culture of industrial mid Victorian Manchester, Elizabeth, gaskell novel, North and South or the text was making a certain argument about knowledge in the aristocracy versus the working classes. The eighteenth century is in romantic. Assist were all over me about it? What you're saying. I also did not like the text argues. pro-style, not like. When. Things are made to be agents and I just think it's like you're doing more conventional whatever besides being fodder for my raging imposter syndrome. All of this certainty that there was a wrong way to talk about literature and that I was doing. It made me think that maybe prospecting is actually more akin to some other aspect of the past. Rather than hearkening back to the American Gold Rush, maybe the perspective is a relic of the European enlightenment. A movement that considered knowledge to be absolutely certain only if the seeker followed this very specific set of rules in attaining it. The Scientific, process. Maybe the dissertation, the goal of this whole ordeal is after all a genre, not really suited to the humanities so much as the sciences, and that's why I'm having so much trouble understanding the rigidity, and the fiercely defended conventions surrounding it. It's as if I've been lured into a mind maze. Or like the heroines of the literary genre that developed contemporaneous Lee with the enlightenment, the Gothic novel. Maybe have been lured into a crumbling ancient castle. What led me to this place is the prospect of a life devoted to literature of professing it as a career. But once I arrived. The prospect of a professorship began promptly to fade from view like the ghost that it is. A now I'm trapped here in this Gothic castle known as Grad School with its intricate system of locked passageways, trapdoors and dead ends, all lorded over by mysterious cult of the profession. The only way out for me, the intrepid heroine trembling with trepidation. is to figure out the secrets of the ancient cult. To gain some knowledge that for the next five hundred pages, or so will continue to evade my grasp. have got to show my mastery of the rules of literary criticism. But at the same time critique them. I've got to outsmart the Baroque villain of the Grad School Gothic the dissertation itself by doing it. While also simultaneously undoing. And Lake those breast heaving readers enraptured by the illicit world of the Gothic in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. You're invited along to witness my own daring. Richer. Because this is. My gothic dissertation. My gothic dissertation was written reported and produced by me Anna Williams. To hear episodes re transcripts and see footnotes head over to my Gothic dissertation Dot Com you can subscribe to my Gothic dissertation wherever you get your podcasts including lyceum and exciting new platform that brings together the most inspiring ideas, discussions and people in the world's first audio learning community. LYCEUM offers a unique online forum, so if you'd like to engage directly with me about what you've heard, download the LYCEUM APP search for my Gothic dissertation, and leave me a comment in the discussion room. The Theme Song For my Gothic dissertation is can't stop running written and performed by Adam Ben Ezra. A big thanks to him for allowing me to use it. The website and logo for my, Gothic dissertation. By Brett foresight of yellowhammer creative. Consultants were Ginger Marshall Michael Garoppolo, and of course, my dissertation committee who lifted the gate and allowed me to do this project in the first place. Thanks to everyone who let me interview them. They are Sherry Truckin Kevin Birmingham Dear Egan Virginia Crisco Meredith, Elsie Isabel Scotney Ellen Lou Elizabeth Allan. Judith Pascoe Susan Mingay David Kuebler. Palma no timothy, burke, Joe Livingston. Kristen Net John Schwartz Matt. Barton Rene Liu Amy Palace Kathy Maghera. Any Sand Jenny Ben Benoi and my peers, Laura Lydia Angela Lulu Caitlin Jamie Kathleen Pedro Philip, Maheen, Jen Jillian Ann Marie Margaret Tori, Maddie, Ian, Brady Rachel and Carl finally I'd like to give a shout out to the Iowa. Public Radio Talk Show team. who were my engaged radio pedagogues back in two thousand, sixteen, seventeen their catherine. Perkins Charity Nebi. Then keefer. Lindsey Moon Emily Woodbury Claire Ross and Dennis Reece. Thanks for listening and be sure to tune in next week.

Elsie Isabel Scotney Ellen Lou Grad School professor Radio Scholar Victorian England Barton Rene Liu Amy Palace Kat Victoria Judith Pascoe Susan Mingay Dav LYCEUM Wiseman Sutton whistler trustee Adam Ben Ezra Ginger Marshall Michael Garopp Kristen Net John Schwartz Matt Brett foresight Anna Williams
The Teacup Poisoner: Graham Young

True Crime Brewery

1:22:48 hr | 4 months ago

The Teacup Poisoner: Graham Young

"True crime contains disturbing content related to real life crimes. Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment listener discretion is advised. Welcome to try burried. I'm jill and i'm dick you know. Most of us have some compulsions obsessions. But what if you're compulsion was to poison people then you'd be well on your way to becoming a killer. As a child. Graham young began experimenting with poisons by the age of fourteen. He was using his family. As subjects his father stepmother and sister suffered from episodes of excruciating stomach pain vomiting and diarrhea then while graham was still a teen his stepmother died from one of his poisoning experiments graham would ultimately confessed to the murder of his stepmother and the attempted murder of other family members. He was admitted to a psychiatric hospital for several years until he was determined to be rehabilitated. What his doctors didn't know was that graham had spent much of his time in the hospital reading medical texts to improve his knowledge of various poisons he honed his skills to include extracting poisons from plants growing on the hospital grounds. his stepmother's murder was just the beginning of his career as a deviant killer. Join us at the quiet end. For the teacup poisoner graham young's crimes were reprehensible causing prolonged and miserable deaths first victims but graham was nothing if not detail oriented a diary would be discovered in his home noting dosages and the effects of each voicing is each person. So we're across the pond for this one as we say in jolly old england and i picked up near called yorkshire sting. Oh and the samuel smith old brewery in tadcaster england. This is an english strong ale eight percent alcohol by volume. Pretty nice one. The cherry amber colour sort of a medium sized hand head nice aromas and caramel and dark fruit. the taste is of raisin caramel. Obita hops come in late in those hans. Give you a little sharpness in the mouth. I know what you mean. I love that feeling. who's creek. good. Yeah well open up one for me and come join me over here. Okay all right vicky. Why don't you go ahead and start this. I like these older cases because they feel like. I'm getting a bit of history here who work. Well it happened in history. It happened in the sixties. Okay so in. September of nineteen forty seven. Molly young gave birth to her and her husband. Fred second child. Graham frederick young molly had developed pleurisy while she was pregnant. Clearest is kind of a non specific term for inflammation of the lining of the lungs. Nineteen forty seven. This could be a very serious condition and mali's case the pleurisy was due to tuberculosis. That's fairly deadly disease. Back in those days and in fact is three months after graham was born. Molly died of tuberculosis. So this left. Fred young to care for new baby. As well as his eight year old daughter winnie and at the same time he also had to work full-time in his job as a machine sadder. There's a lot on his plate. did turn out that. He is unable to raise his two children alone. So graham was sent to live with his aunt winnie and uncle jack. His sister moved in with fred's mother. Grandma is still a baby when this happened so he easily binded with his aunt and uncle. Although he did seem content as a toddler in young child he was unusual. He didn't show any interest at all in playing sports or games with other kids. His often seen quietly sitting and rocking as if soothing himself nets exactly as we see that in kids all the time that has some neurologic or psychological problems. Who the rocking. Maybe he was on the spectrum. You know that wasn't something. They really diagnosed back then. Group b. but certainly. He did have mental issues. When graham was two and a half years old his dad fred remarried and his new wife also called. Molly was now available to be at home and raised the kids so he brought weenie and graham back home to reestablish his family. Fred eventually purchased the house. That grams ought nakal were renting and set up home there with molly winnie and graham started off rough. Graham was very upset to be separated from his aunt and uncle. The trauma of having been taken away from them after losing his mother as an event may have had a really profound effect on him emotionally. And psychologically it wasn't long before people started to notice that he really was an odd child by the age of five. Graham entered school but he never felt like he really fit head in nineteen fifty. Eight written had this to tier secondary education system when children were eleven or twelve. They took an exam called the eleven. Plus how they perform determine the kind of high school they would attend children who failed. The exam went to a secondary modern school which basically focused on children would go to work after they graduated so more of a blue collar focus. The children who passed went to schools which focused more on an education that prepared them going to university. Graham young passed the exam. I guess just barely. And then he was sent to neeson's john kelly secondary school. He had already shown interest in chemistry so as father bottom of chemistry kit as a reward for passing the exam. Now i must say this is really disturbing to me that you would have a child. Determine what they're gonna do with their adult life by tests they take when they're eleven years old. They certainly don't do that anymore. No the no bertha's a it was sixty years ago. Yeah well i mean thinks are still kind of that way with college prep courses and things like that but i really just hate to put a cave into moulds before they're fully grown and have a chance to explore and decide where i don't think that's an absolute you could go to school. It was focused more on kids working after graduation in if the child does shas an aptitude they could get into the other school. I suppose but. I do feel like it puts them at a disadvantage because they're not getting that kind of support right from the get go and if a kid looks the test he probably feels bad about him or herself and might not have the motivation. So it's an aside but it's certainly something that. I'm glad they're not doing anymore because graham really wasn't an exceptional student. He was just good at chemistry since he was just ten years old. he had shown that interest in chemicals. He liked to get into his stepmother's perfumes and cosmetics and he did some simple experiments with them but it turns out that he was also huffing the chemical vapors to get high of course is father did know that at the time for produce myrtle kid. Yeah in a bad way yet. So grand learned about the active ingredients of common over the counter medicines. In fact whenever someone in the family took some kind of medication ram would explain to them how it worked. This was impressive when he was still very young but less appreciated were the details that he really liked to share about. How much medicine would cause them to douse. And how it could kill in those large doses. Little disturbing that. He was already starting to be fascinated with that arth. Spur sure mojo's farther. Fred began to worry that some of the chemicals graham was playing with dangerous. what. Fred didn't know as grandma's already poisoned animals. By the time he has a twelve year. Old dead frogs were found in the yard and the family cat became violently ill more than one time. Also beige twelve. Graham was always talking about how much she admired out of hitler. He claimed that the dictator in misunderstood the remember. This is less than fifteen years. Since the nazis had killed millions of people and bombed the nearby city of london so graham had begun wearing a swastika patch on his clothing and even work to school. Of course the teachers told him to take it off but he refused. British schools were very strict disciplinarians and his defiance. Got him in a good amount of trouble and he also got some corporal punishment. He was already known as an unusual kid and he was a loner. He never really tried to socialize with his peers and spent most of his time alone either playing with his chemicals or reading history. You know especially world war two and medical texts and chemistry texts. His adoration of adolf hitler really scared off most of his classmates. Many were the sons of men who had fought in world war. Two against the nazis every local family had experienced in suffered from nazi air rates. Ladder them had lost a family member and almost all of them had had to live off of government rations. The nazis were the vilest enemies and grams. Admiration for their leader wasn't only offensive. It was really upsetting grim. Also like to talk about the coke claiming that he is a member of a coven he identified as a wiccan and later as a satanist and he convinced some of his classmates to participate in rituals that he made up himself real satanists. Don't practice animal sacrifice and in fact they oppose it most beliefs. Such rituals are about being obsessed with death and they say that they believe in celebrating life. Graham didn't care about the details he just enjoyed the rituals and one of them. Kill the cat later. Neighbors said that many cats at disappeared around this time wondering if their pets have been used in graham sacrifices or as test subjects poisoning experiments as kid must not have very many friends. He didn't have any friends his like nazis. He liked hitler he was into. He was messed up sadness. And ritual sacrifices and stuff holy cow. Yeah and i think his stepmother did have some idea about this. Until nineteen seventy two. It really wasn't difficult to buy. Poisons england either strychnine which causes horrific spasms in its dying victims had been very popular as a rat poison. Arsenic was universally used to kill weeds and insects. Unfortunately because it symptoms appear a lot like those of many common diseases it was also used to kill people in fact this happens so often that arsenic was given the nickname inheritance powder. Because it speeded up. You getting your inheritance. If you used it on someone who was going to leave money obviously you shirk the will i and make sure you're in in the inheritance. That is crucial. Eventually doctors began testing for arsenic whenever somebody died unexpectedly especially from heart or liver problems. That's when more murders started to get caught. If a poison gets used enough doctors will start looking for them. So graham likely had read about some famous poisoning cases but he really felt like he could outsmart everyone and for a while he did. He did get away with her actually more than a while. In february of nineteen sixty one his stepmother molly started to suffer from recurrences of this mysterious illness should have bouts of nausea and vomiting and diarrhea and excruciating stomach pains. I used the only one in the family who is ill. but soon fred also suffered some agonizing stomach cramps where he couldn't work for long lengths of time but then his symptoms was stop. As quickly as they began grams big sister winnie who has by then twenty. Two years old was sick twice at summer. Then graham got hill to that. I is strange. Illness seemed to only strike the young family. But then a couple of boys at graham school suffered the same symptoms now. One of the boys was named christopher. Graham was not good at making keeping france but christopher was also science lower grams extraordinary knowledge and abilities and chemistry enough. To get the boys to spend time together. They would eat their lunches together school days and sometimes swapped the sandwiches. Christopher began suffered intermittent texas stomach pains nausea and headaches and his doctor diagnosed him with migraines well. sometimes christopher's illness was very convenient for graham. Once he had arranged a date with a girl who graham also liked and wanted to date and christopher head to back out because he suddenly got sick that same day bram was able to go in his place. Some of their schoolmates were convinced that graham had done something. Christopher graham already had a reputation among his peers as a real weirdo and they had nicknamed him the mad professor and not in a good way. Kids and class were disturbed by some drawings. He showed them as well. There were drawings of hanged bodies with syringes labeled poison sticking in them. Fred young really had no idea about what was going on at his son's school but he did start to have concerns about the illnesses in their home in november nineteen sixty. One gram made a cup of tea. I sister winnie. She went to work. It was so bitter that after one sip she dumped it in the sink an hour later she was riding on the train and she began to hallucinate by the time her train reached her station she had to be helped from the car and concerned passenger called an ambulance for her. In the hospital the doctors diagnosed winnie with bella. Donna poisoning so bella. Donna means beautiful woman. A chaldean women used to make a liquid from it and drip it into their. Is it dilated. Their pupils and they thought that made them look sexy. It has another name too though deadly nightshade five berries or just one leaf contain enough tro pain alkaloids to kill an adult but it does have an extremely bitter taste. Brunette would limit its usefulness as a poison wouldn't it yes but it didn't take a lot so even the one sip was bad so when he told their father fred about the incident and the suggestion of poisoning made him think of gram grams obsession with chemistry. It had been two years since. Fred prohibited grand from doing experiments in the house. This happened after he had set fire to his bedroom desk but never occurred to fred that anything evil is happening because after graham himself had been sick a few times but fred was worried that his senate been somewhat careless with his chemicals so he decided to talk to him about it. Graham denied any responsibility at all in fact. He blamed his stepmother. He said he had seen her mixing shampoo in their teacups and so it was her fault because she hadn't washed them properly. He said so she had made when he's sick. A fred went ahead and searches son's room anyway but he didn't find anything. He warned grant to be careful with his hobby and that was a while. This mysterious sickness came and went but in graham stepmother's case it always return and it was always worse by early nineteen sixty two. Molly was losing weight and losing her hair. She had recurring back pains and she looked like she was really aging prematurely. Look terrible when he later described. Her stepmother is wasting away in front of our eyes so she certainly got the brunt of it should. It was april twenty first nineteen sixty two win. Molly's illness took a very serious turn. For the worse she had a stiff neck and she had numbness in her hands and feet. She tried to work through it and went out shopping. This was the day before. Easter and she had a lot to get done for the holiday. But when fred came home for lunch she found graham watching molly from the kitchen window. As she was writhing in pain in the back yard she had collapsed on her way home and instead of helping her. Graham just watched her suffer. Brad rushed his wife to the hospital but she died later. That same evening bye now. Mali's medical records showed that she had been increasingly ill for a long time. She had also been involved in a bus accident the year before where she'd suffered a mild head injury. An autopsy was done and it showed a bone in her cervical spine had slipped out of place so the pathologist had concluded that this had happened in the crash and had somehow later led to her death. What do you think about that. Does that make sense whatsoever. It's just a huge stretch remember. Her symptoms were allotted. Gi symptoms so the slipped disk or whatever it was in her neck wasn't an accused kazan and weight loss. I i just don't know how they could come to that conclusion. Well it was a while ago but still. I'm with you. So fred arranged for his young wife to be cremated and he planned the funeral afterwards. There is the buffet meal young's house and on the kitchen table. There is a dish of mustard pickles which only fritz brother john liked now that evening john had severe nausea and vomiting leon. Also after molly's death frets illness worsened. the stomach. Pain got so bad that he felt like he would be dead soon to. He had himself admitted to the hospital and ended up spending weeks there and the doctors diagnosed him with poisoning. They were working to determine where the poison had come from and believed it was either arsenic or antimony. Graham visited often with his sister winnie and he loved to talk with the doctors about his father's condition even joining in on their medical discussions. He was just fascinated with it eventually. The tests came back confirming that the poison was antimony. The level show that one more dose would have killed fred so as fred stayed in the hospital and his health didn't prove he has to winning not to bring graham along anymore when she visited him he later said that he didn't actually suspect granted this point but he must have wondered what the hell was going on. You would think wouldn't you yes. It was very weird. People outside of the young family were definitely suspecting that graham had poisoned his family members. I guess it's just a hard thing for a father to believe or worse particularly that method. I mean if he's that intent on doing harm to apparent. It'd be other ways to do that. Oh yeah but he loved this stuff. This is pretty sadistic the area sadistic i think. He really enjoyed the suffering especially if he had a grudge against someone which i think. He did have a grudge against his stepmother. Although that would be denied you would think you'd have some resentment towards her. Because when she came on he had to leave his aunt and uncle's house where us being raised in they loved him. He loved them and boom. He's in with his step monster. Well sure although she was a nice lady by all other account and it certainly didn't take any kind of grudge or problem for him to poison someone he would just do it for the hell of it for fun read. Who do i think. He just focused in on her more because he probably did have a grudge so grams chemistry teacher. Mr hughes did not enjoy having grandma's a student he might think he would have been the star pupil. But it wasn't so actually. The teacher was very worried about the experiments. That graham was doing first of all. They required a lot more knowledge than graham had from his classes. Second of all they were super dangerous. Mr hughes began to worry that they were purposefully. Dangerous you know at first. He tried to believe that the experiments graham wanted to do just happen to involve these poisonous substances but eventually he realized that really the poisons were the main reason for grams interest in those experiments so one day filled with a lot of concern hughes searched graham's desk after he had gone home and what he found in there was just nothing short of alarming in his desk. They're a bunch of the drawings that he had shown his classmates previously images of dying or dead people. most of them had a chemical related aspect to them. When popular theme was unhanged men over vats of chemicals then there are essays that he had written about famous poisoners throughout history so these findings really shocked us in. It convinced him that grams interest in poisons was way more than academic so he contacted the police. Well yeah i mean. He was aware of the stepmother staff and the father's illness The police probably already had their own suspicions about graham young too because they were very interested. In what mr hughes had to say to them what he isn't found in the desk suggested that graham was in poor mental health with very violent thoughts in his head with no actual evidence. The police really wanted to figure out if graham had acted on these thoughts so what they decided was to work along with school officials to trap graham and figure out what the hell was really going on here so the first part of the plan that they came up with was to tell graham that he needed an interview to discuss future career plans. Now this is a fairly normal thing. Many fourteen year olds choose which subjects. They want to study until they're sixteen. And then it's reevaluated. In this case of things weren't what they seemed. The career adviser was actually a police department psychologist and instead of talking about grades and possible careers. The psychologist steered the interview to the topic of chemicals and from there to poisons and stroking grams ego. It was easy to get him to talk. once he got started on poisons. It didn't want to stop talking. And he revealed enough to the psychologist that he was convinced. Graham was responsible for the poisonings. Yes so police. Brought graham in but during his interview he just denied everything but you know as he was vigorously denying poisoning anyone. A vial filled with metallic powder fell out of his pocket. And this would turn out to be antimony so he finally did break down and confess to the killing of his stepmother but it was more out of pride then sadness winnie young believed. Her brother had had a really close relationship with their step mom but he actually hated her. His classmates were interviewed by the police. In many said that graham had carried the dow stuck with pins and he bragged that this was a voodoo doll of molly that he was using to put curses on her. Molly probably had shared weenies ideas of them being happy family. One time when she took away a mouse that graham had killed with one of his poisons he got angry. Indy drew a picture of a tombstone and left it on the kitchen table where he knew she would find it and non it. He had written in hateful memory of molly. Young r i p. Graham was only thirteen when he started his poison collection. He had used a fake. Id and his impressive knowledge of chemistry to convince to local drugstores that he was seventeen years old. Which is old enough to buy poisons legally by the time. The police caught up with him. He had stacked up on enough poison to kill over three hundred people i showed. The police is to hiding places. One of these was in a hedge near his house and the other was in a neighbor's backyard. Shed using someone else's shed really should incredible hubris or stupidity. Or probably both. I think all he had been under suspicion after someone blew a hole in it the year before with a homemade bomb and as it turns out that was grants doing right so he just really didn't think he was going to get cut or anything he had actually saved a collection of four different poisons so one was digitalis a fox glove that can be used to treat some heart conditions so enlarge doses it can cause hallucinations nausea stomach pains and eventually it can cause a heart attack. Yeah the thing it was to prevent can actually happen if you give too. Much of a dose. Yeah expand on that just a little bit or did you tell us who did jackson is used in. Heart conditions basically gets the heart to pump more effectively. So if you give too much you kind of burden the heart and have a myocardial infarction in the appropriate does it makes the contractions more effective. So they can pump blood better to oxygen. The body in higher doses does too much of that in causes an infarction south. You don't need it at all. Any amount could be dangerous correct. You could probably get away with a tiny amount but yeah small amounts can affect non-cardiac people yet another poison thallium. That's toxic metal. One time used as rat poison but then it was dan for being too dangerous to humans. The other two poisons that graham had in his collection were metal. Lloyd's arsenic and antimony. All of these are extremely dangerous. Substances as collecting them in such massive quantities. Pretty much showed an intent to kill people. Yeah i think the police really saw that way. Black and white now. His first experience had been done some boys school but there wasn't any fun for him. As soon as a boisterous showing the effects of the poison they stayed home so graham couldn't observe their symptoms or give them additional doses as family turned out to be much better test subjects because he had access to them around the clock and his any good scientists knows. It's better to have close observation of the subjects. Well that's true yeah. He told the police that he had started off by dosing. His stepmother mali's food with antimony. Then he expanded to winnie and his dad. The police asked him if he poisoned himself to throw off any suspicions but he dismissed that idea the times he'd gotten sick. He said he had just mixed up the plates a couple of times and eating the wrong food getting ill himself though hadn't discouraged him from continuing which you'd think it might right. If you're getting that ill you might see boy. I better stop doing this. This is awful. Well you would think you would think that for graham. Grim was so intent on seeing the effects on other people but those few little setbacks like him accidentally or maybe not accidentally ingesting son himself. that didn't matter now. you're right. He actually said that it grew on him like drug habit except it was not him who was taking the drugs but his family ram really explain these crimes as being without motive but just simple experiments something. He done out of an obsessive interest in chemistry and morbid curiosity. So that satisfied graham as an explanation but the authorities and psychologists didn't believe it graham had hated molly and she was the one who got the most poison the doses of antimony she ate were causing permanent damage to her health. As well that prolapsed vertebrae that the pathologists had blamed on the bus crash was actually a very common symptom of long-term antimony poisoning. Yeah something. I wasn't aware of neither noted. Have to be pretty long term. High dose steph. Well yeah i guess. It is common in long term use. Because he'd been doing it for a long time and then something else was happening with molly as she is being poisoned. And this is actually something unexpected. By graham anyway. What happened was bhai surviving. The repeated sub lethal doses. Molly was slowly developing an immunity to the poison. Brad expected molly. Keep getting sicker until she die of. What looked like a long undiagnosed illness but each does head less of an effect on her so in the day before molly's death he switched from poisoning her with antimony to poisoning her with alan. Now mali's dinner. That night had enough val minute to kill five people which turned out to be enough for her today the next day yes and that was good. Friday's dinner unfortunately. Molly's body was cremated too so the only evidence connecting graham to her death was his story and then some observations from other people to get a murder conviction. The police needed more than the confession of a mentally disturbed fourteen year old boy but then he also confessed to poisoning his father his sister and that classmate christopher his dad fred. Young's doctors had already diagnosed him with antimony poisoning and fred also recalled that his episodes of illness had usually occurred on monday every sunday. He went to the local pub for a couple of pints before lunch and for the past year. Two he'd let graham come with him. The medical records of winnie and christopher showed signs of antimony poisoning you and every illness. They'd had occurred soon after graham had had a chance to poison either their food or drinks such together with his confessions. The evidence was enough to convict graham and he was found guilty of attempting to murder fred winnie and christopher. They couldn't do anything about molly because she'd been cremated and they had no evidence but he was sentenced for minimum of fifteen years. He confessed to killing his stepmother. Yeah but they didn't think that was enough to convict him of it. They needed backup evidence but he's very serious crimes and there was this widespread assumption that he had murdered his stepmother. Jill where do you burning out here. Bodies well no. I'm throwing in all of our ear buds and headphones with a little bit of lighter fluid as my protest against podcast ads in my favorite shows. I'm just getting into a story or i'm dozing off. And it's interrupted with commercials. I'm mad as hell. And i'm not gonna take it anymore. Nice move your reference anyway. Let's just simmered down here. You do know that are true. Crime brewery listeners. Have the option to subscribe to our premium show for ed free episodes and bonus episode. It costs as little as four dollars per month and these contributions helps support the costs of producing pcb. Well of course. I love and appreciate our subscribers for weeks with our it girl to set that up and all. Because i have a deeply held belief that our listeners shouldn't have to hear ads. that's well said now. Let me ask you this. How are we going to record this week's episode without our headphones for fox sake are you stay here. I'll go get the host. Okay hurry so the judge ordered him to serve his sentence in broadmoor which is one of england's three high security psychiatric hospitals his quite notorious he used to be known as broadmoor criminal lunatic asylum. Already there the mets when things were just more to the point but it was built in eighteen sixty three in its first patients were all female. Male patients began arriving within months and only the most dangerous violent criminals were sent there by nineteen o to the building had six blocks for men and two for women. One of the male blocks was set aside as a pow camp for mentally ill. German soldiers during world war one so it was never really a prison but it was like a prison in many ways a prison for people with mental illness who were violent pretty much. Yeah now in. Nineteen fifty one as a criminal named john straffing who was sent to broadmoor. He liked to strangle animals. But then in nineteen fifty one. He strangled the five year old girl and three weeks later. He strangled the nine year old girl. There were witnesses and he was immediately. And that's when he was admitted to broadmoor in april of nineteen fifty two. He escaped and strangled another five year old girl. So this guy. Straffing was definitely insane but he was moved to lend high-security brixton. Prison is tried and sentenced to death for murder. Ended up dying in prison but his escape terrified. The locals sirens were installed to prevent future escapes and by prevention is. This was where the siren went off. The surrounding area would be blocked off by police in all cars would be stopped and searched. Sounds to me like by the time the siren goes off. The escapee has gaped while sharon but at least that way they're trying to catch them and security reviews and updates strengthened security. And by the time. Graham young was confined near the buildings were identical to a maximum security. Prison well when graham entered broadmoor it was nineteen sixty two. His windows were barred and there was a high brick wall topped with barbed wire. So escape was pretty much impossible then. Graham was known to be very dangerous. He had killed someone. The public was protected from him. But what about the other inmates. They were really vulnerable to his homicidal tendencies in. It wasn't a prison so he did have some freedom. There could mingle. Yes absolutely so just a few weeks. After graham got to broadmoor an inmate named john berridge died from cyanide. Poisoning and the staff was just completely perplexed. The cyanide compound responsible for most cyanide poisonings is hydrogen cyanide and this is a very toxic chemical the does have some industrial uses but there was none of this chemical at broadmoor at least not that the staff was aware of or could locate graham. Actually laugh at them as they tried to find the source of the poison. He told them you need to search the property then. He pointed out some dark green bushes that were growing around the hospital. Property this was cherry. Laurel and the leaves held cyanogen gleich. Ascites so elliott to do was crushed the leaves to extract the hydrogen cyanide. But for some reason that staff just pretty much disregarded his confession. The buildings were also filled with insane. Murderers who all wanted to take credit for the poisoning but john berridge did die broadmoor of this poisoning and they knew that in a torius poisoner was living there. With him graham graham had written to his sister winnie and complain about barriages snoring prior to bear his death not that he needed a recent poison. Someone right but snoring may have helped him decide his victim would be but winnie ever trusting and loving. Her brother never notified the hospital about the things that are brother was writing to her in a cuban grams history. It's kind of shocking. That barrett was the only poisoning death while he was at broadmoor one morning staff did notice that their coffee smelled like bleach. As someone had added harpic into the employee's coffee pot. They knew this came fries. Us to clean toilets but they couldn't prove the grandmas responsible however the staff and began to share some dark humor over it other inmates. They would say you better behaved for lipman. Make your coffee. So i don't know people do stuff like that if you don't know what to do about it and you don't quite have proof that someone did it what do you do. They also think at a job like that where things are. Just kind of dreadful. You have to have some dark humor tie you get through the day sure. But it wasn't very smart. No i mean the really think he's responsible for it. You find a way to keep observing him right right. Berg grodin were probably don't have time for that now and i think they did try and keep a little bit more of an eye on. But you're right. I'm sure they were very busy. Wasn't a fun place to work. From what i can picture shrew. But aside from those poisons graham was still obsessed with hitler and the nazis he began making swastikas out of wood and wore them around his neck on a string. He was only fourteen years old when he got there. Remember so the doctors for some reason mistakenly believed that he would grow out of this nazi phase. He studied chemistry while he was there. And some of his psychiatrists actually encouraged seeing it s away for him to work toward a university degree in a future career. Scientists when time passed with no further poisonings the psychiatrist because they believe that they were making progress with this team poisoner. But it wasn't just self control or psychological progress that prevented graham from poisoning the staff in the inmates. These people were stupid but not that stupid. No one would drink from a cup that graham may have had access to so on some level. They knew the danger at some level yes. Graham was moved to a different block in one thousand nine hundred sixty seven are fewer restrictions in that block and he had earned more freedom by convincing the staff that he was improving a one thousand nine hundred sixty eight two packets of sugar. Soap went missing sugar. Soap was a popular cleaning compound at the time it worked well and scrubbing kitchen surfaces. It looks just like sugar but it burnt human tissue much like lied those which is really bad and that's bad bad bad bad. Graham's new black had a large community t earn the sugar soap been added to the earn. Fortunately it was discovered before anyone ingested but the ninety seven fellow patients on grams black were understandably concerned of course. Grandma's was prime suspect and he got a thorough beating from some fellow inmates but they didn't tell the authorities so graham was definitely willing and anxious to poison again given the right opportunity. That's right so. I think that's the only thing that stopped him was. He didn't have a lot of opportunities. There who is limited in his materials access to stuff right right well of course. His behavior was beyond disturbed. It was dangerous and they were really signs that he was a potential serial killer. He had many of the characteristics of a serial killer. He was a loner. He had killed animals. He also talked about many violent fantasies. And he really seemed to have no empathy at all by nineteen. Seventy his psychiatrists should have seen these red flags but he just seemed to ignore them or chose not to address them. He just couldn't see beyond grams. Appearances this model patient and his young age so he wrote to the home secretary for broadmoor and he recommended grams release. Once graham realized that he was going to be led out. He started telling the staff members that he was planning to kill someone for each year that he'd been locked up at broadmoor. This should raised alarms but they dismissed it. But there were two psychiatrists at broadmoor who did object quite strongly to perhaps release. They believe that once he was free he would go back to poisoning people. Unfortunately these opinions were disregarded. Winnie was contacted by graham. Who wrote to her that her friendly neighborhood frankenstein would soon be out of broadmoor inexplicably. She is excited about this. Maybe she really believed that a brother was fully recovered. Why when this young woman believed the psychiatrist really. I guess i mean. I really feel like the psychiatrists failed here. We'll obviously yet bird. He poisoned her shoes that forgiving. Yeah just had a very skewed idea about the whole thing which we'll get into more of that as we get deeper into the case when even invited graham to live with her so when he is released in february of nineteen seventy-one he moved in with winning straightaway yet and when he was married by this time she and her husband lived in this new housing development in hemel hempstead but graham was not the new person described in the psychiatrists reports. His hitler obsession was alive and well. He suggested a final solution to the problems in northern ireland as well at this point there were terrorist attacks going on in the british cities but graham suggestion of genocide was truly crazy. Soon we was. Yeah but graham's father. Fred really wasn't as excited about his son's release. He was much more realistic also. He didn't forgive him for killing his wife and for the permanent health issues that he had from his own poisoning. He had lost two wives and now he was on healthy and not an old man so he didn't wanna relationship with his son but for the sake of winnie. He didn't completely graham now. We know when he was extremely trusting and when edwin granted about nazism. She didn't say anything. She didn't speak up either when he said that he was taking a sentimental journey to the pharmacy where he had bought the thallium that he had used to kill a stepmother so she didn't report any of this to his psychiatrist or any authorities at broadmoor hurt choose which could have gotten him locked up again probably would have yeah so when visiting his old neighborhood graham spoke almost exclusively about how notorious is crime sedan and how he had frightened the staff and other inmates at broadmoor not once did he speak about his treatment. Or how is going to move forward as a recovered offender. No he did seem to make an effort to create a new life for himself. Outside of the hospital he found a job in slough about fifteen minutes by bus from hemel hempstead. He worked as a trainee storekeeper and although he was odd and socially awkward to say the least. He was organized in fairly intelligent once. The commute seemed to be too much for him he moved into a hostile and slough winnie was actually sad to see him lavalle but her husband was relieved. Now he didn't have to listen to rant about hitler and he didn't have to worry about poison in his food. So that would be nice humber. Who's happy yeah right away. One of the hostel's residents a guy named trevor sparks began to get sick. He started out having nausea and stomach. Pain sounds familiar. Yeah definitely grandma. Offered him a glass of wine to help and gave him a full glass. That made sparks feel worse. His pain worsened. His face swelled up and he had severe diarrhea. He was very ill but is a soccer player and he forced himself to play until he collapsed on a field. He was taken to the hospital. But no diagnosis was reached. He did survive but he suffered from severe pain for years afterwards and it was never able to play soccer again so even though he wasn't killed his permanently handicapped well and in these cases where someone abuses kills hurts people. We always think about the murder victims and of course we should and their families in the loss. But you have to think about these people whose lives are forever changed in many ways ruined. This young man was very into soccer and he couldn't play anymore after that so there's not only the suffering in what they go through but their lives are forever changed in damaged. So i mean it's almost as bad as killing someone in many ways and there was another patient at the slough hospital with similar symptoms and doctors couldn't find an explanation for this illness but this victim recalled having a drink with a young man who seemed obsessed with chemicals in poison. No one was able to identify graham as this young man but it likely was him. The victim was in so much pain and he could not get any relief and this victim ended up taking his own life so that to me is a murderer. Yeah that's just tragic. These were young men not surprisingly people who spent any time at all with graham came down with mystery illnesses but graham was doing well in his job. and by the spring of nineteen seventy-one. He moved on to a better job this time with a photographic equipment company. This company was in buffington. Closer to winnie's house. This seemed like a good move to winnie. Who thought that working in a camera shop wouldn't give him access to any poisons. I'll contrary yeah. She was very wrong about that. She worse now before he got the job. Graham hit a bump in the road when it came to his references. The store had a lot of expensive equipment and employees needed to be trustworthy. Of course graham seemed qualified but he had eight years missing from his resume when he was asked about that gap. He explained that his mother had died when he was a teen and he had suffered a nervous breakdown. He said he had been hospitalized for some time but recovered. I'm sorry but for a nervous breakdown. You're not going to go away for eight years. Had to be more to it. You would think so right. Yes so the owner contacted the clinic. Where graham claimed to have been but he eventually learned that graham had actually been a resident of broadmoor. The psychiatrist at broadmoor didn't share any details of ram situation. But he said that graham had suffered from a deep going personality disorder. He emphasized that graham had had a full recovery. So this information was passed on with no reference to any poisoning and graham was hired. The manager didn't want to hold grams past against 'em especially since a psychiatrists claim that he was fully recovered. That was good enough for him and they were really busy in the factory working. On a large order for the ministry of defence the british army's battle tanks needed new infrared sites install and the company had been awarded a contract to produce the lenses. But they accomplished this with their patented thallium bromide. I a- died coding. So that to me says poison. Doesn't he s so there. Were some dangerous chemicals there and i'm sure he was aware of that when he went for the job or sure. Yeah in any british workplace. T brakes was standard. Kind of like the american coffee break. They happen at least twice a day and the tea is often accompanied by cookies or snacks. Now graham had a trainer his new job guy named ron. Ron was moving on to more advanced position so he showed graham the kitchen. The t. are in tea bags and then within days. Ron was sick. Granted waste time. Did he know it was probably just itching to do it. Hey the been awhile and it didn't seem like a big deal. At first there had recently been a couple of stomach virus outbreaks at some of the local schools. So ron wasn't too worried. Then the storeroom manager started to have stomach pains diarrhea nausea. The symptoms lasted for a few days. But then they would come back. Ron had at least ten episodes in a three week period but once he moved onto his new job. The illness just went away permanently. How do you figure no stop. Ingesting poison you get better if you act too far god right now. The storeroom manager wasn't as lucky as ron. Each time he returned to work after a sick leave his illness returned and it was worse than ever. His fingers became numb and had spread to his hands and feet by the end of a workday. He isn't just terrible unbearable pain. He finally was rushed to the hospital but by that time he couldn't speak or move his limbs. The doctors diagnosed him with john perry syndrome. Which is an autoimmune disease that damages the peripheral nervous system and moved into the core of the nervous system. Paralysis moved to his lungs in early july ten days after his. He was hospitalized and he died shortly after of pneumonia because he couldn't clear his lungs right. Well the staff at the camera store and factory were quite shocked by this. This victim was in his fifties and robustly healthy before he fell ill he had actually served in world. War two and had survived the dunkirk evacuation. Now he was dead of an unexplained workplace illness. Graham spoke to his fellow employees. Saying it's very sad that bob came through the tears of dunkirk. Only to fall victim to a strange virus so bob was cremated and that must have been a relief. To graham it had been his stepmother's cremation after all while her body was filled with thallium that it spared him. From being caught years ago the cremation of his co worker removed the threat of being discovered for him. Now remember grams not capable of empathy. But he was able to show a false emotional reaction to the co workers. This worked in the moment but then after months of him about the death people were just fed up the others in the factory. Wanted to put this tragic death behind them but graham just enjoyed reliving it relaxing it getting into details for choice summer grim finally stopped talking about the death and one of the supervisors named fred briggs had defended graham. He gave him bus fare in cigarettes. When graham came up short but not too long after they became friends. Fred briggs was struck with the same symptoms that had killed the other employees and this time the mysterious spread like wildfire three male employees started vomiting having leg pain in hairless diana stewart through separatists had painful feet and noticed that they smelled strange awful. Yeah they never were able to determine what caused that symptom. They think it must have been something different possibly but he dabbled in all kinds of poisons so some people stuck with the stomach virus theory but others were becoming worried and suspicious. They wondered if maybe the water supply was contaminated or if military experiments at a nearby military base were causing the illnesses but then a man named jethro bat began to think about a cup of coffee. Graham young had given him he said had been so bitter that he threw it out after one sip and then the symptoms took hold. Summer turned to autumn illnesses and the company became more widespread and serious. Jethro had recovered from his first elvis. Then it returned ten times worse within two days he had painted with so entirely tolerable. He was considering killing himself. Just to get relief. Fred digs was even worse shape. His skin was peeling off and he couldn't even tolerate the weight of a sheet on his body. He is in hospital until november showed some initial grief improvement and then died on november nineteenth. Yes this camera. Company had suffered two deaths and just a few months as you can imagine. Employees were worried and just desperate to find out what was causing. These illnesses yorkers remember nobody knew brims pest now it was hidden from them actually by the psychiatrist so diana the receptionist with the smelly feet wrote a memo to the director saying that graham was a germ carrier and she thought he was responsible for the illnesses. She pointed out how the illnesses began. When graham was hired and that most of those affected had worked very closely with him so she was really getting close to the truth but then unfortunately her focus on. Germs worked against her credibility. She suggested that graham had cut germs from his pakistani roommates so her memo was dismissed as being racist after the november nineteen. Th death of fred briggs. A local doctor named anderson called the meeting with the staff. Anderson told the camera factory employees that the building had been thoroughly examined and nothing hazardous who toxic have been found one of the clerks. Actually graham himself began asking some tough questions of the doctor. He wanted to know how falcon poisoning had been ruled out of the symptoms mashed exactly hair loss nerve damage stomach pain vomiting in an agonizing death now this demonstration on grams part of the knowledge of thallium poisoning surprised. The doctor and it immediately led him to suspect graham. The doctor contacted the supervisor who in turn notified. the police. graham. Dan himself ended ni people suspicious against himself by showing off his knowledge of toxins. He have but. I feel like he really couldn't resist showing off. Course not is just so obsessed with it. So his psychiatrist from broadmoor dr edgar edwin head hidden grams records from his new employer mostly in order to help him succeed but once the police were involved they got access to the full records. The investigation confirmed that the illness had struck the company within three weeks of graham coming on board. The victims symptoms were explained to forensic scientists in found to be consistent with valium poisoning. Detectives informed the factory manager about how he was misled into hiring a convicted killer. Who had use thallium when he was still a child to murder his own stepmother. So this was shocking. Who would expect that then. Two days after the Two days after the police were contacted bramlett into his father's house in kent to visit his aunt while he was there. Police went to his boarding house and searched his room. And what a shock. The walls were covered with pictures of hitler. Dead bodies and people in agony with bottles labeled poison and on the window sill there are bottles and vials filled with gray metallic powder and underneath the bed. They found the motherload grams diary. Yes so this diary was a large notebook labelled a students. Officers casebook officers looked through the pages and were just completely unnerved. Graham had written down the doses of poison he had given to his victims and their subsequent symptoms. So as fred biggs was in the hospital dying. Graham had written that f. was responding to treatment he is obstinately difficult he wrote if he survives the third week he will live. I am most annoyed. Some agean the shock of finding this thing i know. Are you more in beside each of the victims names wrote whether or not he intended for that person to die or just to suffer. Wow in the diary showed since he had been released. Grandma poison seventy people in a replace to poison more people. He wrote a bad plan to visit a co worker in the hospital and offer him a drink from his flask of brandy and thallium because drinking alcohol is not allowed at the hospital. Grenfell confident that the co worker wouldn't tell anybody and he also had begun using different poisons including antimony and arsenic in order to confuse investigators. Right so what they found in grams room was enough to convince them. That graham was the murderer and the poisoner of these people. They located him at his father's house and arrested him that same day. Taking him away in handcuffs so fred. His father was just disgusted to hear that graham was still poisoning. People remember he really hadn't wanted to forgive him or bring him back so after they left with his son. Fred was done with graham for good. He tore up his birth certificate and any photos or anything reminding him of him. He didn't want to know anything more about it. And just imagine the pain that is his child. Haiti has to realize that is just a horrible human. Being responsible for a lot of deaths in a lot of illness ride including his wife's death and his really damaged health swerve ram had a vial of thallium in his coat pocket when he was arrested two. He claimed that this was his exit. Dose in casey was cut. But i think that was really unlikely. Thallium poisoning was a horrible way to die and no one knew that better than graham. It's more likely that he kept thallium on him in kisii at a chance to give it to someone because he was always looking for an opportunity to poison people think that's the way to interpret that yep absolutely he's not gonna want himself to suffer too much now it's horrible. It just sounds horrible now. Once he is in police custody bram was very talkative. He bragged about killing his stepmother calling it the perfect crime but he also said he would deny everything in court. He seemed to believe he was immune to prosecution and even wrote to one of his cousins that he had a good chance for acquittal because the prosecutor's case was so weak he had kept up on the science of poisoning but he didn't seem particularly well versed in recent advances in forensic science now because his confidence was not accurate he finally did go to trial that summer. Of nineteen seventy two. He was charged with murdering the war. Veteran and fred biggs as well as the attempted murder of several other people by british law. The jury couldn't be told about his earlier convictions or the time he spent in broadmoor. The prosecution had detectives testify about grams. Confessions and the diary entries but wasn't gonna go down without a fight. He really thought he was going to get away with this. He did admit to his confessions but he said that he had only told the police what they wanted to hear. Because they were withholding food from him. The case was absurd. He said he said the diary entries were all from his imagination and he'd been writing it down in preparation for a crime novel. He planned to write so there was no evidence proving that any of his co workers had been poisoned by him. The war veteran had been cremated and fred biggs. He said likely misused some thallium that graham had given him to kill bugs in his yard. No motive could be defined for graham poisoning seventy people and killing two of them. He was convinced that he could not be convicted without a proven motive but his motive was that he enjoyed causing pain and death. And you don't need to prove a motive to convict someone that's right and of course grams. Assumption was wrong with such strong evidence again. The motive is not necessary and the prosecution is very confident about their ability to win the case. Back when molly young had died thallium poisoning in nineteen sixty two. It had been impossible to gather evidence. But the ashes of the war veteran were run on a mass spectrometer and found to be full of thallium so he didn't know they could do that or the widow of fred. Biggs testified that her husband had never used thallium in their yard or even brought any home and the initials of the victims which he called patience match the initials in his diary. The people had suffered from the same symptoms that he had written in his diary as well. So it all matched. the prosecution had also found the source of grams poisons. He had gone into london and bought thallium antimony from a pharmacy using a fake. Id graham con the pharmacist into selling him. The lethal metals saying that he needed them for chemistry experiment. So this clearly showed criminal intent and then of course the the trial was very attractive to the media and the newspapers gave him the nickname. The teacup poisoner ram. Love the notoriety. Here so confident and certain he would not be convicted but it must have been quite a shock for him when the jury returned with their verdict. Yeah he was found guilty. For the murders of the war. Veteran and fred biggs he was also found guilty of two attempted murders in two counts of administering poison. The jury also expressed concern about the sale of poison needing to be better regulated so once the verdict was in record was released to the court and the public so everybody found out about his history and the jurors learned for the first time how he had poisoned his family and killed his step. Mom rams defense attorney spoke up telling the press that it was only possible for graham to commit his offenses because they had released him from broadmoor even his own attorney had been relieved that he would be off the streets and the judge was in full agreement so he sentenced graham to four life sentences plus two five year sentences for the charges of administering poison and after the verdict it was announced that two new inquiries would be scheduled to look into mental patients after they were released guidelines needed to be developed so others like bram wouldn't be able to leave broadmoor and enter the population with no one knowing about their crimes and with them being free to repeat them so this time. Instead of broadmoor graham was sent to her majesty's prison parkhurst on the isle of wight in nineteen seventy. Two parkhurst was used to house the most dangerous convicts but the isle of wight itself isn't like alcatraz it's a one hundred and forty eight square mile island off the southern coast of england and it's actually best known for its coastal resorts as well as a prestigious yacht club. It's best known to me as an american from the beatles song. When i'm sixty four but parker was home for some of england's most evil prisoners and in nineteen seventy two ram young became one of them. Pirker's was probably a rude awakening for graham. He lived in fear of his life on a daily basis. Prison was different from broadmoor and the inmates were much more vicious many them so their own crimes is very different from grams. Graham was seen as a socratic scumbag who killed his own stepmother. Just for kicks and other inmates some of the many way so grandma's a person to avoid at all class they were afraid he would poison them in their tear their food and they were ready to kill him for the first sign of him getting up to his old tricks now in prison brand made a friend who's just as evil as he was in nineteen sixty three sixteen year old girl named pauline reade left her parents home for a dance in the suburb of manchester. She never made it to the dance because on her way she met a neighbor named myra hindley and a guy. She introduced her boyfriend ian brady. Pauline died an hour later with her clothes. Torn off and her throat slashed then that november a twelve year. Old boy was lured into myra. Henley's car molested and strangled and in june of nineteen sixty four another twelve year old suffered the same fate and six months later ten year old down in disappeared from a fairground she was raped and killed in the house of myra hindley and ian brady yes so this is a case they call the more murders within lee and brady and this is a case. I've decided i'd like to cover soon. Horrible but fascinating so in nineteen sixty five brady invited a seventeen year old named edward evans to their home and beat him to death. With an axe myra hindley's brother-in-law witnessed this earner and he called the police the next morning. Myra and ian were both arrested. Myra hindley was convicted of two murders and she received a life sentence. Ian brady was sent to ashworth psychiatric hospital but then ended up at parkhurst with graham young. The friendship of ian brady and graham young was a true match made in hell. Both were obsessed with killing for fun and both loved nazis the to play chess everyday together and talk for hours about their favourite. Nazis brady wrote a dreadful autobiography in two thousand one. And in this book. He compared graham young to herman gehring and joseph mangla in august of nineteen ninety grim youngest on dead in his prison cell. The recorded cause of death was a heart attack but there was speculation that he had been poisoned either by himself or fellow prisoner. Ian brady suggested that graham had killed himself as some kind of brave gesture to free himself from imprisonment anyway. Whatever did kill him. It turned out to be a quick death and he didn't suffer like the suffering. He had caused his victims. Yeah there were a few books. Written about graham young's poisoning murders graham sister weenie wrote a book. She titled the obsessive poisoner. So it's an interesting book in that it offers this insight perspective but she really was unwilling or unable to accept that her brother was a bad guy her insistence that graham had a good relationship with his stepmother that he killed is really difficult to understand. There's another book titled the teacup prisoner written by fergus. Mason suchart book less than two hundred pages. But it's full of accurate information about graham and his crimes finally there's another book called the st albans poisoner. The life and crimes of graham young. So there's plenty to read on this. Then is a footnote in two thousand. Five seventeen year old girl. In japan was arrested after mother went into a coma and died from thallium poisoning. The girls black had photos of her ill mother. During phases of the poisoning she also described. How thallium had input into her t. She wrote about experiments. She did on animals when police discovered the blog. They searched the girl's house and found the remains animals. Their bodies were full of thallium and preserved in formaldehyde and she owned a biography of graham young. Yeah when trying to determine why graham did what he did. Psychologists found no abuse in his childhood some of his victims. He did dislike but many were just chosen at random. He described his poisonings as experiments. But i have to say that total bullshit. He knew what would happen to his victims and he really enjoyed observing their suffering. He really seemed like the power he felt by taking people's lives into his hands. Basically he killed because he liked it and he had no empathy for other people. Really nothing redeemable about this person. So our sources for this case are the books. The tea cup poisoner the st albans poisoner and the obsessive poisoner. There's also an article in the journal criminal behavior and mental health from nineteen. Ninety six by paul bodin so this is just an amazing case. isn't it almost beyond belief. It is but i take some solace in. I don't think this could be repeated. I think our forensics have come far enough so he would be caught. The first time probably. You're not convinced you'd have to be in Be suspicious of it right. The person been poisoned. But i feel like now if someone gets sick. They're going to find the poison usually if they think about it yes and if they find the poison or when they got him then they got him. Yeah but i think there's still maybe good number of physicians medical people hospitals where that's not something that would enter into your differential diagnosis. Sure i would hope. It's very unusual and rare clusters the type of poison you use because some of them are easier to find than others. I really feel like antifreeze. His a very popular one with murderers. From what i've seen in my little bit of experience that's easy to identify though. Yeah okay well. Tcp's music was written and produced by tristen ca- pal. If you do enjoy listening to our shows. I hope you'll consider leaving us a review on i tunes or wherever it is that you listen. Takes a few minutes but we really appreciated and it helps new listeners to find our show before we get into feedback. Just a word about our t- cb store with the holidays coming up. If you're looking for a gift or a stocking stuffer we have some merch you can buy. Were in partnership with t public so the prices are very reasonable because of course they can buy the products in bulk and really high quality. I love the sweat shirts and the t shirts even bought myself at tote bag which is great. So what have you got for feedback. Dick i have a few emails for you. Three to be precise okay. You want to read the first one. The first one is from patty and it's a case suggestion. Hey they're just wanted to say. Thank you for sharing time and talents with us listeners. At truly enjoy a anxiously await each episode. I follow several other crime. Podcast but true crime breweries. My favorite case. I would like to submit for possible review. Is that of new freedom. Pennsylvania resin greg whitman in nineteen ninety eight at age fifteen. Greg found guilty of brutally murdering his thirteen year. Old brother zachary and he received a life sentence with no possibility of parole brigands. Parents have always maintained his innocence in due to his age at the time the crime was committed he was able to plead to a lesser charge. And in so doing was granted. Parole in two thousand twenty youtube channel kill zone recently released a documentary film on this case. And it's extremely interesting. Thank you again for your time and effort. Each episode requires and i appreciate you both. Thank you patty. that's great. So what do we know about this case. Well there's occurred in nineteen ninety eight in october and was actually zach. Who is the fifteen year. Old and greg was thirteen year. Old zack killed. His brother stabbed him over a hundred times. Nearly decapitated zach was sentenced to life in prison without parole and this was later downgraded to twenty to forty years in prison in two thousand. Eighteen zach did confessed to the murder of his brother and in two thousand nineteen. He was released on parole southern city a lot behind. This obviously yuccas the little bit. I've read so far. Seemed like some minor slate perceived by zach. The made him kill his brother and he really went off on his brother. Yes that's just. I don't know how to feel about it because it sounds like a terrible crime but then i also have an issue with a fifteen year old getting life in prison. That seems i don't know that's tough one. So it definitely make for an interesting discussion. I'm sure it is extremely interesting. I just have to wonder about the parents. And how they dealt with all this or no all right. Sorry next email is a case suggestion. From theresa. theresa writes back in nineteen sixty six. When i was in junior high school. There was a brutal murder in riverside california at riverside city college. The victim was a college freshman for the fall semester. Nineteen sixty six. Her name was sherry. Joe bates the case remains unsolved. The so called zodiac killer took credit for her murder it was heard that the zodiac killer enjoyed taking credit for killings regardless i for one don't believe zodiac did it. I believe it was someone who either sharing new or someone who felt slighted by her. You know men in their fragile egos someone who just wanted to kill a young woman or may have been a stalker to we. Just don't know sherry had just graduated high school in nineteen sixty six from ramona high school in riverside. She was very attractive in a real catch. She was a varsity cheerleader and homecoming princess. While at ramona high. I've always been very curious about her murder. It was vicious and lots of clues were left behind at the college. Where she was murdered she had gone to the college library to study. Check out books. The library closed at nine and she was discovered by janitor early the next morning in a dirt driveway between two empty houses on the campus laying near her was a timex. Watch with the wristband. Broken blueprints greece handprints in fingerprints on the driver's side window in engine compartment in the back of sherry's green nineteen sixty vw bug. The murderer disabled her car and then approached her possibly to see if he can assist her for her a ride. No one knows what he said to her. Of course but she went with them. It was rumored that he said to her. Hey it looks like a good time and sherry said a good time for what and he said to die. I'm hoping you will choose to look into this fifty four year old case. It just needs more attention. Parts of sherry's murder were mentioned in the movies. Odiaun act from recent years while teresa. Thank you so much. And that does sound fascinating. Who does i think. She's giving us too much credit. Though in terms of solving the case. I don't think she's thinking will solve. It thinks she might. We might give it some attention. But we're not super famous or anything so but we definitely would love to discuss it. Arthur accuse yep it'll be interesting. Yeah i always enjoy the older cases so thanks again. Teresa and we have one more email. Final emails is from amelia. And it's a little different because she has a book suggestion so she says hi. Dicken jill longtime listener here. I wanted to give a book recommendation because it really helps and you look at cases in a more informed way and it rings true to a lot of what you mentioned kind of an older book and you may have already heard of it or read it. It's called the gift of fear by gavin decker. I thought of it again this week. When you'll mentioned about how leeann fletcher's mom joked about her husband. Taking out insurance on her djilas always a champ at reading all the true crime. Books gavin mentions in his book. The joking is actually one of our senses that we need to listen to so might sound like a joke. But there's some substance behind it. I'll absolutely. I believe that this book is awesome and i would highly recommend it also. I love your podcast. So much and look forward to listening every tuesday morning being from colorado on a huge craft beer fan and dick. I also love founders. Their breakfast beers are everything. Thank you for everything you do. All the hard work you put in his show have a wonderful holiday season. thanks again. So what was her name again. This is amelia beautiful name. Well thank you. Patty and theresa and amelia. And it's my favorite part of the podcast feedback. We're of course yes. That book that amelia was talking about. I have heard of that book i think. Years and years ago the author was on oprah winfrey and it was an all female and he was telling people. Trust your instincts. Some totally on board with that. Like if you see someone in an elevator. Don't be polite and get in. If he gives you the creeps follow your instincts wrote yup and i think that with leeann. There were a lot of signs. But that's the thing with people they just thing bad things are gonna happen to them in happens to someone else. Renault dopey dramatic or of course. That's not going to happen. And that's just a really good example with leeann saying oh mom he's not gonna shoot me hours before her husband shot her to death. Yeah it's really eerie. Dirge say to amelia craft beer fan that we've been a few times to colorado not recently. Of course i know we miss it but denver a couple of times in boulder wants for his wedding so i think next time we come. Who give you a call. Yeah we'd love to drink beer with you. Maybe we can schedule some kind of meet up with a few people but you know you're not get the future away as i now script travel again. I know so. Well thanks everyone for listening. And thanks again for feedback. And we'll see you next time at the quiet booby there. We'll look for you buy

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One and Done: Serial Killers and Their Zodiac Signs

Happy Hour Gets Weird

20:27 min | 1 year ago

One and Done: Serial Killers and Their Zodiac Signs

"Hi and welcome or welcome back. I'm Cathy I'm tiffany and this is our one episode for Happy Hour Guests Weird where we drink a beer and have a short discussion on on something a little bit more lighthearted maybe then our main episodes so this week we did an astrology sign episode and we decided for a one and done. It'd be kind of cool to see what the serial killer some of the big hitter heavy hitters. What their signs things were so this week? We are drinking mango cart. A MANGO WHEAT ALE from Golden Road Brewing. And I had this before An is delicious. I haven't had it. You'RE GONNA love it so while I pour defects. Why don't you could start with the list? So like Cassie said usually are one and denser slightly more harder than this because it's not just a list of serial killers others but it's still kind of interesting to us just to see how the signs may be a fact these certain individuals because we know who they are we know about their crimes and we were just interested in the topic. Like if you were Scorpio are you more likely to be a serial killer exactly. Let's start with capricorn. Okay the list and this is not all inclusive also. I got this list offer anchor. That's my source okay. So Capricorn. Dean Quarrel Aka the CANDYMAN member. Him Texas I do twenty eight plus boy victims. Yes yes Charles. Inc Eleven to twenty five victims Ian Brady of the Moors Murders William Bonin the freeway killer out of California he targeted young men on the freeway in the seventy S. Okay and Dorothea Puente. who was the landlady who killed her? Elderly Sacramento yes. In Sacramento hotels elderly. Talking about tenants tenants yes and collected to their social security checks. Yes uh-huh checks at the nearby bar. Yes so that's the list of Capricorn serial killers interesting interesting. Yeah they all seem kind of different. I'm surprised so kappa corns done. They are awful Aquarius Joel Rifkin Aka Joel. The ripper had seventeen plus victims out of New York state in the late. Eighty S Jerry broncos. Who for some reason? They called the lest killer. was that really his nickname. This is the guy who would Jerk off to ladies shoes he was on mind hunter. They talked about how okay I know who you're talking about. I had four victims. I don't know why some of these killers get like cutesy. Weird Pisces of all this air colors would have a foot fetish not Aquarius. Yeah Robert Hanssen Aka the butcher Baker her out of Alaska. Yes the guy who hundred people in Alaska. He had seventeen to twenty victims. and Gary Ridgway the Green River killer which I think is probably the most prolific American serial killer as of right. Now I'm not sure about SAM little I exit. They're still trying to well after that. Those are all Israel truth claims. Yeah Gary Ridgway is green with isn't on my list. By the way which is strange. He is the green over killer. I actually read the book by Admiral. Gary Ridgway Wow I think you should read it he will he. I don't know if he seems like an Aquarius to me. I don't no no well. He is and he's a total dickhead. So the all of these people on this list have one thing in common. And that's total fucking Dick Heads. So you got that right next Pisces okay. I'm surprised even Pisces is a killer. Eileen were not. And if you don't know who that is you're probably I'm listening to the wrong podcast. Exactly apologies get out now when you can also watch monster. I enjoyed that movie. Richard Ramirez the night stalker. Or as I like to call him Mr Ginger Vitus okay. The worst anthem. I am like my whole life has been a lie right now. He has my favorite favor getting caught story about how a bunch of civilians chased him. beat the shit out of him. That is an amazing getting. We're not for vigilante justice. Unless you you speak for yourself okay we are for it. If you're oddest tool Henry Lucas Buddy and crime of. Oh yeah that was that he was A little tidbit on the Compassion killer net flicks. You out as tool was they supposedly traveled around the country. Yes they traveled all kind of around yet and they were one of those people that I think claimed more than they actually did absolutely Henry. Lucas did yes. Dennis rader Peter Major piece of Shit also known as K Pisces. And yes Vince. Since btk gave himself his own nickname. I don't think anybody ever called him. That he had ten victims. One day. Man For sure pee wee gaskins and. That's the truth. And that's the final truth Christopher Wilder Aka the beauty queen killer and this was one that I didn't know about. He had nine victims out of Australia in the eighties deck. Move Yeah I wrote fuck this garbage of a human that was. That's my note. John Wayne Gay see. I think we all do that is I am totally shocked by life has been turned upside down. I can't believe this list is Pisces. And don't name name your kid. John Wayne it's just it's just setting them up for failure allowed if you name them after John Wayne Well John Wayne is doing is a living legend. So yeah don't name Kit out. I feel like it's a setting them up for failure. Yeah Okay and then Randy Steven Kraft the scorecard killer killer. He had between forty three and sixty seven victims and he had a type of scorecard made up of his victims and potential victims and when he was caught he had a deceased man and his car. Disgusting that was in the seventies and early eighties. Yeah so yeah. You were surprised by the Pisces but they were someone some of the the terrible. Yeah no but really some of the the terrible terrible. Where the Pisces? I am totally shocked the next week of Aires Okay Keith Jespersen Aka the happy face killer he murdered women while he was driving cross country three okay and then he wrote letters to the media and sign them with a smiley face. Dick Yeah Donald Harvey. He had thirty seven to fifty seven victims and he was an angel of death. Type Murderer worked as an orderly. Okay Paul Knowles. The CASANOVAS killer had thirteen to thirty five victims. uh-huh Herbert Mullin thirteen victims. He was across the country as well. I'm pretty violent. And Yeah that's the last of the aries not a ton of the crazy well-known ones on the area side. No all terrible. The tourists also didn't have a ton Martha Pat. who was half of the lonely hearts killers? They had between three and seventeen victims. I think that the reason why they're such a big discrepancy is I think it's what they claim versus what they what they were found guilty for. So I think that's why the numbers are so okay teen is alive ebay killed seventeen people. They could only prove three. Yes exactly so. She and her husband met people through lonely hearts ads in the paper and murder them. which is all terrible? It's like you you know this is terrible. NCO hearts terrible terrible. Terrible H H Holmes. Have you heard of him he he and I love this between nine and two hundred victims okay. MIC didn't fucking murder two hundred people. He could have. He didn't which really had a castle dedicated to murder. I know but I don't think he was operating Dir of the world's fair. I don't think he really killed as he didn't kill two hundred people because that piece of shit he just wants the fame and glory. Sorry why ninety nine all right I think he old people also Albert fish the worst the worst. He's so disgusting and terrible and Albert Fish and homes are kind of both equally fucking disgusting. Put a needle right through his heart. He should have before or he ever did. Anything to put the needle. Yes Elvis Penis Pelvis and penis region. Excuse me you're saying penis wrong Oh my gosh all right next Gemena. Okay Jeffrey Dahmer. Maybe you've heard of him. Okay okay. I have heard a Jeffrey Dahmer and that does make sense. I feel like Jeffrey. Dahmer had a duality to him and he is the sign of the twins. He did Kenneth Behind the hillside strangler one part of it one half of the hill. Hillside Strangler Richard Chase the Vampire of Sacramento. Oh one of the most disturbing case of cases I've ever learned about honestly. It's it's terrible. It's terrible Peter Curtain the Vampire of Dusseldorf Danny Rolling Aka the GAINESVILLE ripper Robert Lee. Yates who murdered thirteen women and targeted sex workers which I find extremely despicable because I feel like they do that because they think that they'll get away with it for longer and I. That's despicable me because a lot of sex workers have no they fall through the crack. Right they don't get support from law enforcement. They also a lot of the time lose touch with family and friends to nobody reports missing so funky Robert. Louis David Berkowitz the son of Sam Okay and John Norman Collins Aka the coed killer a violent murderer who was kind of all over the place. Weird Weird I'm surprised that son of SAM is on here David Berkowitz because he shot people from afar. which is the exact opposite of somebody like Richard Chase the Vampire of Sacramento? What what time was this again Gemini and also the exact opposite of like Jeffrey Dahmer? Yeah yeah it doesn't really seem the same category as Dahmer and Hillside stranglers right and a coed killer. I mean I just found that interesting. I don't I don't get the big thing I I don't get the big thing with some Sun Osama anyways I think it's because he gave himself a nickname and I think it's because it was so random random that people felt like they couldn't defend themselves. It's like I can't just go outside now. Yeah he's just another loser. Who Shot people piece alright? Next next. We have cancer okay and I only have to cancer. I'm not surprised. Cancer is is kind of a giving loving sign. Carl answer the answer am Oh shit. He was a cancer. Yes no way full of rage also interesting interesting tidbit. He robbed President Taps Mansion Clough Pans rammed it. Yes stolen gun which I think he used on a few people and most if not all of his victims were male also. There is Janine Jones. This bitch was a nurse and murder children and babies. Now I understand this bitch this guy this bitch. Yeah what I could say. This bitch after everybody on this array right. It's a short. And should he lists for cancers. I Guess Yeah Leo. CEO Myra Hindley which is the other half of the Moors murderers okay. John Haig Aka the acid bath breath killer which I hadn't heard about about asa bath killer England zero killer. I've heard of him and Anthony so well. The Cleveland Strangler Eleven victims out of Ohio in the early two thousands so one of them are more recent ones next. We have Virgo Henry Lee Lucas. Who claimed eleven to six hundred victims? Okay Fuck you Rodney. Alcala Aka the dating game killer. The Guy who was dating show is terrible. He he was. Oh so terrible. Ed Geene okay. Who I call the crafter? He's he was crafty. He really wasn't. I mean he unburdened people but really women but really he was more of a neck romance or yes he he ran out of bodies or something. No I think he got no. I think what happened was he couldn't stand the smell of the dead bodies. And then he also got yearly fixated on these older women because his mother issue. I think that he really I think he's one of those people that if they would have had psychological help this could have been avoided. I Agree Paul Bernardo the piece of Shit who murder girls in Canada with his demented wife. Karla homolka Albert desalvo the Boston Strangler. Oh he and he targeted older women strangled on like with stockings and yeah and then Mary about the tinning who murdered her children. What a garbage human? Yep Next Libra. 's Patrick Carney the freeway killer another freeway killer in California we get a lot of freeway away killers and there's a ton of freeway killers. Yeah this one was like in the early sixties seventies pretty much from like fifty five eighty. Don't fucking go anywhere in California basically Angelo. Whoa no the other Hillside Strangler partner and Charlene Gallego who with her husband murdered ten victims usually teens they were sexual predators out of Sacramento in the late seventies early eighties? I'm trying to think if I I heard that case before it's a lesser talked about one. They were looking for a sex slave. It's fucking disgusting there. It's a really disturbing cases. They take in in foster kids now. I don't think so okay. I don't think I know that case so next Scorpio's okay top two I think Our secretary since Scorpio. All Right Leonard Lake Charles Inks Accomplice Derrick Todd the Baton Rouge serial killer Alton Alton Coleman coral Eugene Watts. They called him the Sunday morning. slasher William Harris the lipstick. Killer Belle. Gunness really try. flers need not apply. Oh my goddess back on my goodness. Oh my goodness Mike All Right. So the Scorpio. VAT is a list full of heavy hitters again. Yeah so last and certainly not least. I've saved Sagittarius. Do you have a person that you think is on this list May. Are you asking me or asking listeners. Both but only only you can respond. I thought Ted Bundy was a Sagittarius. You thought corrrect and you and I are also Sagittarius. I know and we hate Ted Bundy. Oh He's the worst the worst. So Dennis Nilsen is a sanitary as the notorious British NECROPHILIAC who dismembered his body ladies and is referred to as the British Dahmer. Was He the He was a homosexual right Yen Right yes. I know who you're talking about. Yes he is pretty much the British Dahmer but he doesn't like that because he thinks he's more deep than Dahmer. You okay. He's more distinguished. Yeah just because you have an accent I think thanks Oh may lead is actually all that needs. That's mate is that English will. Yeah like isn't it just because you're drinking tea when you're murdering people doesn't make your better air brexit. Oh I wasn't doing an accent. I was just pissed. Okay Ted Bundy and for the record no. We don't think he's cute. No it was a sex offender. His victims are women and children and he was talking NECROPHILIAC. Here is my thing with Bundy. I can't stand him I think he is the biggest narcissist I feel like he skirted responsibility. And I feel like if you're gonNA get caught and you're gonNA give interviews news. Why don't you give? Why don't you? He likes skirted around the fact that he was how sick he actually what does he doesn't have empathy and he just wanted the limelight. He's a piece of shit and I hate how people talk about him like. He's not a piece of shit. Listen I'm telling you right now. He stupid in a Turtleneck. Okay the fucking piece of Shit. There's also Raymond Fernandez the other half of the lonely hearts killers. Oh Okay and at Kemper Ed Kemper And if you don't know who that is please watch a mind hunter. Because his character is I'm not gonNA say great because he's a serial killer but they do sell good job after they do such a good job talking about his Ed campers character on mind hunter. So it's worth it just to learn about him. Well okay so. The actor does a great job pulling joining Ed Kemper or portraying ed cameras. The show does a good job at it. For lack of better terms featuring at Kemper yes and I feel like he is he is a fascinating character. It just ain't right he is. He's a very good example of when people are trying to think nature versus nurture. If he he would've had a different upbringing his entire trajectory might have been different yes. He's a prime example of that. He killed his mother yes he he had sex with her skull and he also killed and dismembered codes for young women. Yes but well-spoken strange very straight very strained runs with police officers one of those people that everybody was honestly shocked very strange strange situation so well that was it. I have to say me personally. I was surprised I thought there would be a lot less spicy killers and a lot. More Scorpio killers. I'm disappointed that I share assigned with Ted Bundy me too. I'd much prefer that he was in aries to be honest me too I would. Let's trade him out for Dahmer Okay. I'll trade him for Dahmer okay. Now that we've had the whole discussion about the signs. It is fascinating to look at these horrible people. People and how their crimes correlate with their signs well and I also think too that it's really about nature versus nurture. You could be born in any sign and I think that that doesn't like predetermine you to be violent. Definitely not we have violence across all the signs. Yeah and I think it just happened. I don't know I just really hate Ted Bundy. Moral of the story is Fuck Ted Bundy. Yeah and the moral of this Ted. Bundy cheers cheers to that

Jeffrey Dahmer Ted Bundy Sacramento murder cancer Sam Okay Henry Lee Lucas Gary Ridgway California Richard Chase Sacramento Joel Rifkin Dick Heads Texas Kemper Ed Kemper Ed Kemper John Wayne Cassie Alaska William Bonin
Frankenstein; or, The Modern Lift Master (part one)

My Gothic Dissertation

35:11 min | 9 months ago

Frankenstein; or, The Modern Lift Master (part one)

"ME. When Frederick Frankenstein inherits the estate of his grandfather victor in the Nineteen seventy-four Mel Brooks Classic Young Frankenstein. It's not the infamous laboratory where equipment that interested in. This is your. Talk was your grandfather Vic to? It's the library. The books well. It seemed to be quite a few books. This was big. D Barons, medical library. And, whereas my grandfather's private library, I didn't know what you mean. Well. These books are all very general. Any doctor might have them in his study. This is the only library I know of Franken Stone. Franck standing. Well. We'll see. After initially being deflected by chlorof- Leach men as Frau Bluecher, the housekeeper of the estate, and in this retailing Victor Frankenstein's former lover. Frankenstein, played by Iowa zone gene wilder eventually discovers a passageway that leads to what he desires. His place. Music. Says nothing here, but books and papers. Books papers. It is. This is my grandfather's private library feel. Laid out on his grandfather's desk is a large volume with the comedic Mel Brooks the entitle how I did it by Victor Frankenstein the it of course being how he created his infamous monster. Frankenstein proceeds to read it from cover. This is what he's been looking for all along the precise knowledge of his grandfather's notorious work, the instructional guide for making a monster the very thing he's been insisting he doesn't care about has distanced himself from with the revised pronunciation of his name. Feeding. As it turns out. He did care a little bit after all. Although the film young Frankenstein purposely, even gleefully reinsert grabs a lot of early. Hollywood's inaccuracies in depicting Mary Shelley's work things that were never actually in the novel like the hunchbacked Assistant, the Gothic Castle, the bolt of lightning, causing the monster to come to life. Frankenstein's interest in his grandfather's books is actually a pretty insightful moment that hearkens back to the eighteen eighteen text. subtitled the modern permissiveness, the original novel. Frankenstein deals like many stories in Western civilization with Forbidden Knowledge. It's a reference to the Titan for me. theus who, in ancient, Greek mythology disappeared the wishes of Zeus and stole fire from Mount Olympus to give to the humans. This fire is often interpreted as a metaphor for the divine spark of knowledge that once lit continue being handled to become ever more large and powerful. And in the hands of the humans, it's not only life giving, but also potentially destructive. In the literal sense that it like Burns things, and also in the metaphorical sense that it challenges the omnipotence of the Gods. The more the humans, no, the less power. The Olympians have over them. and. This is why Zeus decreed that for meatiest would be changed to Iraq and tortured forever. His liver eaten out of him by Eagles. Everyday only to regenerate night for the next round. subtitling her novel, the modern Prometheus cash shelley's protagonist Victor Frankenstein similar figure who filch his knowledge from the divine realm. Only he does so at the University of INGOLSTADT S- in the late eighteenth century. There after years of intense study in his rented student lodgings. He discovers the secret to creating human life. But here's where the insightful moment by Mel Brooks comes in. Frankenstein's years of intense study focused among other things. On, three ancient philosophers that people in positions of authority didn't want reading. Old Forbidden Books. The stuff of private libraries. And those who didn't want this modern prometheus reading these things the uses of Mary. Shelley's story were victor's own father. Alphonse Frankenstein and one of his professors at the university. Across old natural philosopher names monsieur cramp. And the ancient philosophers they didn't want victor reading. Parasol Celsius. And foolish script. Alberta's Magnus, his nonsense with exploded five hundred years ago, Cornelius? Salsa. occultist, what is your name? Victor Frankenstein. Of Geneva this imagined I. Exchange Between Victor and cramp is from the nineteen ninety four film Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and it isn't far off from what Victor Really says about as discouraging educational history in the novel. The occasion for which is often forgotten by modern readers. Shelly story begins with a frame narrative in which an ambitious naval explorer named Robert Walton finds a haggard near death victor, drifting across the Arctic Sea on an iceberg. His limbs were merely frozen, and his body, dreadfully emaciated by fatigue suffering. I never saw then in so wretched condition. He startling appearance coupled with the fact that Walton ship is trapped motionless in a sea of ice. Gives Victor good reason to tell his tale. Beginning with the early years growing up in Geneva, and how one summer he made a chance discovery that would change the course of his life forever. When I was thirteen years of age, we all went on a party of pleasure to the baths near thronged him. The clemency of the weather obliged us to remain a day confined to the in. In this house. I chance to find a volume of the works of Cornelius AGRIPPA. A New Light seemed to dawn upon my mind. A grip was a sixteenth century theologian and scholars who generally assumed the book victor found was one of the three volumes of his day ACCOLTA philosophy. Or of Occult Philosophy, a kind of compendium of both learning and folk ideas about magic. Victor calls how dazzled was by his discovery, but when he presented the book to his father, he quote looked carelessly at the title page recognized a group his name. Cornelius! and Said my victor. Do not waste your time upon this. It is sad trash. After recounting this memory Victor Pauses to tell Walton that on reflection, it's this moment that set into motion the series of events that would lead him to create a monster and bring about his life's ruin. And this is important because as far as I know. No other literary scholars have given this moment the credits do. Frankenstein has widely famously been read as novel about Hubris overreaching ambition, pride. People consider victor's conquering of human mortality to be motivated by an impulse to challenge the power of God and achieve personal immortality through thing. But in my reading, it's not God that Victor's challenging. It's his teachers. Those who cast themselves as the mortal keepers of knowledge who can dictate to Victor, what is sad trash, and what is not, and what he really wants isn't fame rather it's to redeem the work that so captivated his imagination. To show his father and cramp not only that they were wrong and trying to forbid him from reading those books. But also that the forbidding of any knowledge from interested students is just. Bad Pedagogy. CanNot help remarking here. The many opportunities instructors of directing the attention of their pupils to useful knowledge, which they utterly neglect. And other words when they say things like. Do, not waste your time upon us. It is sad trash. This moment at the end with his father is the first in a series of intellectual confrontations. Episodes of what Sherry truckin would call epoch violence that caused victor to rebel. As he tells Walton. Had his father had a little more patients. Had you taken the time to explain that quote? Modern Science had just proven grip is theories and therefore had quote much greater powers. Then Victor says he probably would have dropped it. But like Prometheus challenging Zeus Victor was only made more defiant by his father's cursory glance. The careless brushing off of his intellectual curiosity and enthusiasm. He doubled down in his obsession with the occult determined to demonstrate the worthiness of his interests despite his father's attempts to divert them to deem them unworthy of serious pursuit. To block his access. With shame. Lot is full now. Please wait. On a dreary morning November about six months after passing prospectus. I'm in my two thousand eight Honda accord a slowly drifting iceberg into the sea of cars, waiting to get into the parking lot of the EP, be the English philosophy building where all idling here impatiently waiting for to exit the lot, so we can enter. It's a one in one out situation. You'd expect from some kind of nightclub. Only the spot where waiting to enter is actually four and a half floors of poorly lit brutalism architecture that was recently voted the ugliest building in the state of Iowa. Still though it's a campus hotspot because it houses to underfunded general education courses that every student is required to take. Rhetoric, and the interpretation of literature, which is what I need to get into teach. Okay. I am in my car. Hold on move up. Two people actually three people just gave up in front of me. turned around and drove away. But I'm to go. Try to talk to some of the other people who are sitting in line. On this day it begins to dawn on me. This whole parking lot situation feels like a metaphor for the feeling of blocked access that's plagued me through this entire Grad school experience. And since I have a kid of recording equipment from the radio essays class. I'm taking I work up the nerve to get out and interview people in front of me. I WANNA know who they are why they need to get into the lot, and if they find this situation as frustrating as I do. The first car I approach is a blue. Mercedes, SUV. The driver seemed startled, but agrees to talk to me. How long have you been waiting in this line? Are? Thing is already two minute. Do you have a class in their? Is. Increase Center. Think Yeah Dylan Christner. Probably the second ugliest building in the state of Iowa. It houses the Education Department. He tells me that he's an Undergrad a sophomore any weights in this line three days a week like me. So basically it causes start at twelve thirty. So you know I. Always come here at eleven forty. You know, and maybe always with to the. Shelter as I can go, and the Federal Park Low thirty minutes to get pretty typical. That giant work whistle by the way. Is that the nearby power plant and it signals that it's now tomorrow. Meaning thirty minutes is also the amount of time I have before I should be calling role in front of my classroom. Sorry. I'm doing a radio story on the parking lot line. Would you be willing to answer a couple of questions for me? Okay. So what's your name? Paulo Okay Paula Anna so long. Have you been waiting in this line today? I've been waiting approximately one hour one hour I find out. The Palam is another undergraduate student, and unlike most she's not actually waiting to get into a class. She's been in this line for an hour. She tells me because she needs to pick up a computer from her friend. So the person like can't leave. The building in obviously can't like park my car and go in. So I'll just wait it out. Which is fine, I currently don't have anything to do so all works out unfortunately I. Do have something to do so for me. It doesn't really work out, but I think Paulo for her time anyway and move on. I did this thing for three days getting out of my car and interviewing the people in front of me. And each time, every single person I talked to was an undergraduate student. One of my undergraduate students. I Thomas Anna you look familiar. Were you one of my students? Are Very reckless. Yeah, yeah, you were my rhetoric student. Hey, how're you doing as nice as it is to see them? It doesn't feel quite right to be competing for resources with my own students, but would also doesn't feel right. Is that while it was conducting all these interviews with the undergrads in front of me? There was something else happening to. Right beside us, there was this other line that we were all restricted from entering or really. It's kind of a non line because there's never anyone in it. It's reserved for faculty members in periodically as we were talking, they would zoom past us and enter the lot with their prepaid passes. No thirty minute wait. Not, even a one minute wait. They just pull up swipe a card and go right in. And if that's not frustrating enough once, they got through the gate. There also be these large swaths of empty parking spaces on reserve for them. Just lying in wait to receive their subarus in Volkswagen's taunting all of us in the Plebeian line. Every time, a faculty member would zoom past. I'd ask the Undergrad I was interviewing how they felt about it. Including this junior name Shayna. At first, she said that no one should get special privileges, but then she made one important caveat. No. I don't I. Don't think so as besides teachers because they're. That's important for them to be there on time, but they already have so they can go like they can go ahead and go in so. We'll actually I'M GONNA teach. Our teachers already have a line. She was saying the one people were zooming past in. And when I revealed to her that I'm the teacher, she seemed kind of shocked at first, but then she asked something pretty telling. Are you like? Do you lead discussion or are you like a teacher like the? The question is whether I'm a real teacher or merely a discussion leader, a graduate teaching assistant who does things like take attendance, grade papers and lead breakout discussion groups once a week for large lecture classes. Still a person for the record who does very important things and deserves reliable access to their workplace. And I did serve as a discussion leader for Insurance to the English major when I first came here back in two thousand thirteen. But for the past four years I've been independently teaching the same intro level courses as the faculty members in my department. Even though I'm still technically called an assistant. Unwittingly. Shane is revealed the divide she had. Many others seem to see between Grad students and real teachers. The divide between me and the ones that can glide right past this gate. Just like the line for the EP be parking lot only so many make it through this gauntlet of PhD work in the United, states. According to the council of graduate schools, only about fifty percent of students who start doctoral programs in the humanities will finish. At least in there for ten years. And while it may seem like a longtime according to a two thousand sixteen report by the Modern Language Association, the average number of years it takes to complete a PhD in the humanities is nine point two. To get an MD that is to be a medical doctor. Entrusted with other people's lives takes just eight years of Grad School. Of course that doesn't include all the residencies that follow, but still post Docs are common path for humanities. PhD's as well. meaning that in the United States the time it takes to be able to teach Shakespeare College kids is not all that different from the time it takes to be able to perform surgery on them. Why. What could possibly be so important about teaching college courses than it takes this long for someone to prove their worthy of doing it. Who or what are the lift masters in that process? And what is the freaking? Hold up! For those trapped in the pursuit of our English PhD's lift masters come in many forms and a lot of them. Are Psychological Full now please wait. Now back in the car. I'm stuck idling indignantly behind this lift master again. The master of lifting or not lifting the gate. And from here I can't help but see it's unwavering arm as reminiscent of another kind of barrier. I'm stuck behind as well. My own feeling of intellectual subordination at this stage in my career. It's as if the twelve foot reflective steel arm more before my eyes into the Alphonsus and crimps of my own education story. The ones who, in their well, intentioned, unless blunt way have nevertheless told me my ideas are sad trash and not worth pursuing. Because every step so far, my comps exam the prospectus meeting. It feels like trying to prove that my ideas, my interests and powers of perception. Or enough to grit me access to some kind of PhD Promised Land. My own personal spot in academia. Each time it feels like I'm being asked to produce some sort of pass that adheres to a set of English discipline. Rules I. Don't completely understand. And I've managed to keep producing one up until this point that somehow bafflingly turned out to be valid. But every time it seems to be just barely so. And, it's just barely. NECE makes ability to produce it the next time, even less sure footed. Because I've lost faith in its validity. In my validity. I feel ashamed that such important people seem to find my perspective so flawed, but at the same time like with Victor. There's this hard headed persistence to. Through all of this, it feels like the only thing keeping me from being one of those fifty percent that turn around and give up. Maybe driving to the nearest marketing firm or starbucks drive-thru submit a resume. Is My own sheer stubbornness. This conviction that I do deserve a spot in that lab. I'm more than just an UNDERGRAD needs to pick up a computer from her friend. And in this process of getting my PhD. The more I feel like I'm being treated that way like some frivolous underlying on a mundane mission easily brushoff in invalidated. The more hardheaded I become. When Victor arrives at the University of Ingolstadt in some undisclosed year of the late eighteenth century, he's immediately met with more disregard of his interests. Another unyielding gate standing between him what he wants to study. Soon after arrival. He meets with Mr Cramp, and although it occurs a bit differently in the novel that in the film version you heard earlier. The outcome is pretty much the same. He received me with politeness and asked me several questions, concerning my progress in the different branches of science appertaining to natural philosophy I, mentioned his true with fear and trembling the only authors I had ever read upon those subjects. The professor stared. Sure enough in response to Victor's week proposal of his academic interests cramp assumes the familiar position of different authority scoffing. Have you really spent your time in reading such nonsense. Every minute. Every instant that you've wasted on those books is utterly an entirely lost your burden memory with exploded systems and useless names could God in what does it land? Have you relived when no one was kind enough to inform you that these fancies which we will so Greeley imbibed. Thousand years old and his musty as they are ancient. I little expected this enlightened and scientific age to find a disciple of Alberta's Magnusson Celsius. My dear Sir you must begin your studies entirely anew. Although victor claimed he was quote not disappointed because he had long considered those authors useless. Thanks to his father, he still harbors and admiration for them feels contempt for modern scientists. Because why is it exactly that measure cramp Alfons? Frankenstein are so quick to disregard victor's interests. A lot of critics take the answer for granted, but really why exactly are a group parasol? Says and Albertus Magnus Sad, trash and nonsense. This matters a lot in my reading of the novel which I see as a sort of tale of two victors, one pre creature in one post. Pre, creature victor is the one with the interest in the occult. A curious student whose imagination has been kindled, and he thinks he's found something valuable that his teachers have overlooked. Despite discouragement, he secretly pursue those interests in an effort to prove them wrong. which turns out to work. Combining occult knowledge with Modern Science. Victor discovers the method to reanimate dead matter, which is an astounding accomplishment in the realm of human knowledge. Was Right about the potential of this forbidden books all along. The only thing that makes the creature into a monster was victor's abandonment of it which I read as a moment which he becomes a turncoat. A traitor to his own convictions, a sellout who gives in to his intellectual detractors. So again I ask. What exactly were those detractors saying? What message about science and knowledge did victor internalized from his father and cramp that led to the making of a monster. What other stomach gate had been constructed and Modern Science Victor worked all those years to furtively tear down only to end up abandoning it inciting with the lift masters after all. To answer this question for myself I reached out Tacoma, know a history professor at Middlebury College and author of Solomon. Secret Arts a book about attitudes toward the Occult during the age of Enlightenment. Professor Mino- was overseas in Oxford at the time, so our skype connection here is a little less than optimal, but I asked him why someone like Victor's father, a magistrate for the government of Geneva in the late eighteenth century would have called a group. A said trash. Wasn't taken very seriously by that time. It was it was regarded as. A product of superstition, and as something that have more to do with. the period of. In which was written than it had more to say to pre reformation society, even though a gripper was a protestant horrible. We're not certain of that. And being reputation of Geneva was for sort of calvinism rationalism. so it's it's not at all surprising. That would be the case. The image of Geneva is a very straight lace. Rational stick society. And so I think this is meant to. Bolstered at age in the mind of the reader. He's referring of course to John Calvin. The puritanical theologian best known for his theory of predestination. Two Hundred Years Before Calvin had promoted the Protestant reformation from Geneva in his brand of rationalism or the belief. That reason, always trump's emotion. Is reflected in his theory that all human wisdom consists of two parts. Knowledge of God and knowledge of oneself. Knowledge of God and here's the rational part. Can only be attained through the reading of Scripture and the exercise of one's reason in interpreting that scripture. Unlike this text and reason, centric theory of knowledge occultist like grip. Knowledge of God could be attained through secrets embedded in nature itself Mino- talked about this when I asked him about overdose Magnus who's not actually in the book Solomon Secret Arts because as it turns out, he was never really an occultist. and. Those who think that you know the. Nature holds secrets with Raven revelations. come to believe that Albertus Was Somehow Privy to them in the same way. King Solomon was pretty them a municipal. This is the myth of Solomon on which title of the book is based. the the idea that Solomon. Had this knowledge of all things in the world? And because he had that knowledge, he knew also the hidden things in the world, and the hidden things in the world where secrets that put there by God that would crazy to a higher spiritual plane. So Being Thinkers Occult Tradition Agrippa and Parasol says believed that nature held secret divine knowledge that if humans could find, it would bring them closer to God. Or according to their pious critics, could you surf the divine knowledge of God that humans were never meant to wheeled, but for Calvin EST rationalist like Alphonse Frankenstein. The belief that knowledge could be attained. This way would have looked like superstition. Naive magical thinking that he didn't want his son falling for. This debate surrounding the way we know things is also what cramped seems to take up when he calls the work of a group and the like nonsense and exploded systems. But of course victor didn't rely on mere superstition or magical, thinking to gain his knowledge, he combines the old with the new. In my reading, it was never that he wanted to prove that the old way was the right one. Just that the rationalist distinction, his father encrypt were making was too simplistic closed minded. Sure Victor came to ingolstadt devoted to medieval. Occult Philosophers. But. He did delve into the modern sciences with quote, an ardor that was the astonishment of his fellow students and. A proficiency that ought his teachers including cramp. Within. Two Years Victor Tells Walton. He had maxed out his teachers abilities. By their own admission, he had nothing left to learn from them, and so he was considering leaving Ingolstadt and going home. What made him decide to stay was the decision to set off on a kind of independent study to answer this question that it continued to nip at his mind. A vestige of his still lingering admiration of occult philosophy. One of the phenomenon which had peculiarly attracted my attention was the structure of the human frame, and indeed any animal dude with life. When's I often ask myself did the principle of life proceed? In other words, what makes things alive? It was a bold question and one which has ever been considered as a mystery. Yet with how many things are we? Upon the brink of becoming acquainted, if cowardice or carelessness did not restrain our inquiries, he decides to be brave and breakthrough. That careless restraint. Combining his advanced skills in the modern sciences, things like anatomy chemistry physics, biology. With the occult belief that such a question can be answered. Victor goes on to fulfill his quest. He proves that modern occult science aren't mutually exclusive as his father in Cranston. It's hard. He guns it through that intellectual gate and self permanent spot in any academic lot. He designers. And then. He gives it all up. But, that's next time. In My gothic dissertation. Back to my own dreary morning or afternoon in November. It's twelve twenty one I'm second in line and someone's sleeping. Oh No. Faculty member creeping up in the other. In the other. Lane. Thomas hasn't pressed the. Thomas is pressing the button, but I think that when these faculty members go in, I won't be able to go in. Let's see what happens Okay Thomas is going. Here. I go to faculty members both pressed the button before me. Pressed the button and take the parking tickets sweet. please. Take the parking ticket. Please enter following the guy. Goes the lift master and drive to find a place to park after thirty six minutes spent in the car behind my own former student. I now have nine more before the beginning of my class, which translates to just enough time to find a spot. Gather, my motley assortment of bags, get inside drop the motley assortment of bags in my basement office and dash up to my second floor classroom. There will be fifty minutes of discussing weathering heights than an hour back in the basement, coaching students on their essays or alternately field in grade complaints about their essays, then another fifty minutes of discussing weathering heights with another set of students. Finally gather my belongings and head home to keep working on my dissertation. And after two more days back to do it all again. Because I'm chained to this rock for as long as it takes me to finish writing this thing. It's kind of the inverse permit. theus his liver actually. After what feels like an eternity behind the gate. My pass keeps materializing just in time. Only to disappear for me to remake all over again the next round. Like this chapter now complete. But dissipating into the stark realization that after all of this. I have to write another one. Ny Gothic dissertation was written reported and produced by me Anna Williams. To hear episodes re transcripts and see footnotes head over to my Gothic dissertation Dot Com you can subscribe to my Gothic dissertation wherever you get your podcasts including Lyceum, an exciting new platform that brings together the most inspiring ideas discussions people in the world's first audio learning community. LYCEUM offers a unique online forum so if you'd like to engage directly with me about what you've heard, download the LYCEUM APP search for my dissertation and leave me a comment in the discussion room the theme Song For my Gothic dissertation is can't stop running written and performed by Adam Din Ezra. A big thanks to him for allowing me to use it. The website and logo for my Gothic, dissertation were designed by Brett foresight of yellowhammer creative. Consultants Ginger Marshall Michael Garoppolo and of course, my dissertation committee who lifted the gate and allowed me to do this project in the first place. Thanks to everyone who let me interview them. They are Sherry Truckin Kevin Birmingham deirdre Egan Virginia Crisco Meredith Elsie. He's Abell. Scotney Ellen Louis. Elizabeth Allen Judith Pascoe Susan Mingay David. Kuebler palm no Timothy Burke Joe Livingston Kristen Net Janelle Schwartz that Barton Brunell do amy. Policies Kathy Magro. Any Sand Jenny Benoi and my peers Laura Lydia Angela Lulu Caitlin, Jamie Kathleen Pedro, Philip Maheen Jen, Jillian and Marie, Margaret Tori Mattie Ian Brady. Rachel and Carl. Finally, I'd like to give a shout out to the Iowa public radio talk show team. Engaged radio pedagogues back in two, thousand, sixteen, seventeen, their Catherine Perkins Sharing Nebi then Keefer Lindsey, Moon, emily, Woodbury Clare. Roth and Dennis Reece. Thanks for listening and be sure to tune in next week.

victor Victor Frankenstein Iowa faculty member Modern Science Robert Walton Mel Brooks Albertus Magnus Alphonse Frankenstein Geneva professor University of INGOLSTADT Mary Shelley Cornelius AGRIPPA Thomas Anna ME. Sherry Frederick Frankenstein Mount Olympus
Grad School Gothic

My Gothic Dissertation

43:14 min | 10 months ago

Grad School Gothic

"If this was a normal dissertation on Gothic fiction. I'd start with a witty compelling hook to draw you in. Probably, some bold or surprising statement about the Gothic or person associated with it. The Hook would lead to interesting anecdote I don't covered in my research something about the Quirky, antiquarian ISM, of course, Walpole, maybe or how an radcliffe was thought by all. Victorian England to be a reclusive madwoman. You'd be charmed by this knowledge, the vivid image in your brain that illustrated historical time and place I wanted to transport you to. But then. Once, I had you. My voice would suddenly become less conversational more authoritative. And you find yourself buried alive in a formidable scholarly paragraph. It would almost includes some statement about the origins of the Gothic like this one from David putter. The origins of Gothic. Very difficult to pin down. It just conventionally said the Gothic really begins. Fiction Moody begins with this will pose accustomed to in the seventeen sixty S, and that was indeed the first of the GOTHIC novels. They've actually succeeded by the famous classic novels by and that cliff. Published in the seventeen hundred and Seventeen Ninety S. So that is the heyday of gothic fiction but. All the subjects vision. Who continually seemed to have an often life to refuse to lie down and be bedded, then gothic fiction keeps coming up again throughout the nineteenth century. Here's where I would tell you that since the publication of his book, the literature of Terror in nineteen eighty. Punters been widely credited with exhuming the Gothic from the critical crypt where literary giants like William, Wordsworth wished it would lie down and be buried. I would say that critics have historically maligns the GOTHIC for being too over the top, too provocative of base emotions to black and white and its portrayals of good versus evil. And those things by the way indicate the presence of footnotes, citations are extra commentary that can be found by the more scholarly inclined on the podcast website. In a normal introduction to a normal Gothic dissertation hero position myself among the more generous critics such as punter. And say there's actually some pretty nuance social commentary going on in this body of literature. And that the novel's typical settings for boating medieval castles or spooky monasteries speak volumes about the targets of their criticism. Commercials, being a visit you of a futile on. Post and ministries or In some way. Catholic religion and some kind of opposition to see in British culture was the comparative casualty of the politicians religion at a social level. They mean the persistence of the past which we'd wished out does off from the duty to be long since dead, but that postal seems to go on. Once held rigidly in place by the unquestioning obedience of the lower orders. These societal institutions and their corresponding edifices are symbolically falling apart and gothic texts as new more democratic ideas threatened to topple their authority. When the heroin becomes trapped in one of these crumbling castles confidence. We. See the worst of that institution. It's corruption. It's desperate attempts to cling to power at any cost made evident in the psychological terrors. She's subjected to trapped inside. Because what they turn out to leak. Once, you insulted. Is. Impossible to find one's way around. There is always docked. There was always the threat of falling through shop. Door will find yourself in a lower level. These are. Owens unlike the conventional house. In which the new real maps, you can never tell exactly how to get out so these also no use of imprisonment. In other words, the place in which the heroine finds herself trapped also looks very much like an external ization of her own mind under the influence of the institutions manipulation confused. Perilous and darkened with self-doubt. In, Normal Gothic dissertation, this is where I would make some astute observation about their generous social commentary, and then state my intervention. Something like for decades now scholars have studied the Gothic in its original context, the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century. But I argue that the genre is a useful tool for illuminating problematic power moves made by outmoded institutions in any context. I would then define the scope of my dissertation by stating that I plan to examine one modern institution particular that many consider to be losing cultural power. The academic humanities. I then Linda Authority to that claim by bringing in the voices of noted commentators like former President Sidney Smith. In these times, everything seems to be lined up against humanities. Our enrollments are shrinking. Our majors are funding is decreasing as a result of corporate is assessment in value setting our motive. Scholarly communication is in unsettling transition. Are Fields are becoming feminist with a large proportion of contingent faculty. The humanity threatens to become as last year's MLA President Russell Berman noted a service provider within the academy. If this was a normal gothic dissertation, I might bring in the work of. Or historians here to trace the roots of the modern American, Academy, back, to the European Medieval University. An institution with strong ties to both the Catholic Church and Feudal Aristocracy I might suggest that considering these historical ties, it seems only natural that academia could be third target of the gothics criticism. If this was a normal dissertation. Thus laid out the beginnings of my critical framework and the average reader might be lost or bored by now. But. This isn't a normal Gothic dissertation. My gothic dissertation is more like a Gothic novel. A multi volume one that tells the story of protagonists struggling against traditional forces, cleaning desperately to life in the modern world, threatening as Gothic scholar Chris Baltic tells us. To fix their dead hands upon us. As in the tradition of the buildings, remind the protagonist in the gothic novel are on an Educational Journey and the traditional forces they work against are outdated modes of doctoral training like the dissertation itself. Only unlike a novel, which fiction. This story takes place in real life crusade about three miles to US sixty one. In the novels of Ann Radcliffe and her imitators, a tradition known since the nineteen seventies the female gothic. The heroine starts her life in some idyllic provincial place that's far removed from the hustle and bustle of big city life. Yeah, we're about to go. We're on. The outskirts of national were about to go downtown? Or some of the older stuff is for four year. Old Me Natch is was that place? Propped on the bluffs of the Mississippi River two hours from Jackson and three from New Orleans. It's right out of the pages of its own kind of gothic novel. The Southern Gothic But that's a story for another time. In her country idol, the gothic heroine is typically raised by doting caregivers who nurture her gifts and cherish her talents. My caregivers mingas are the reason for this trip, which I took about a month after my prospectus defense with my parents, sister and two nephews who you just heard. My nephews still seem a little bit confused by this. Are the main keys Ameinias were our old neighbors when I was growing up, and we were very very close with them, and we're going to see them and made them tomorrow. They're very special to. They're real family, but they're like family. Until we moved from Nashes to Birmingham when I was for my family lives in a tiny house on roselawn drive next to Bob and Barbara Ann mingay and their three young adult daughters esther, Suzanne and Peggy Ann. The middle daughter Susie was the nurture of my young talents, my doting caregiver. She was fresh out of college, a brand new first grade teacher, but I didn't know that at the time. To me, she was just a kind person who I always wanted to be around. All these years later. When I visit her notches, she still that way. Well! I don't know if you remember. Anna, and it really wasn't put on the door for you. It was more for Kadian. You inherited it, but my daddy when you would come knocking on the back door daylight on Saturday mornings. To come in the on you ready I. Mean you've got that, but no, it was hilarious i. mean you know that that's why y'all are family to us, but BOB ended up putting. A spoil from a wooden spill from bipeds thread and he attached to the lower part of the screen door because when you were coming, the handle was. Half for you to reach and so many Saturday Morni- we would be. You would come over early and we'd still be in bed. Are Rating and you would want your own book and it didn't matter that it was a picture book. Be Any book that you wanted. And you pick up your own Harlequin romance and just lie right there on rages like a grownup ordering. I should say that back in those days. I couldn't actually read the Harlequin. Romances I was just pretending to read them with no idea what kind of swashbuckling was going down on those pages. But later when I would come back for week long summer visits. Suzy got me reading for real and she also got me writing. When. We were together. You and I in the summer, and you needed something today. It was like okay. Let's read this book now. Draw pictures to go with it, and then as you aged you. went through those different levels of development with your writing, and I think that's when. You and I started writing stories. Of course you weren't riding on. You were telling them and you? You came up with all kinds of stories as you have been reminded and this visit together you would even pick up Kentucky Fried Chicken coupons and make up stories about the coupons, so you always have had the imagination. You just needed some help. Right at first writing down your thoughts, and and then you would ill stripe those one of those stories cinnamon alone one became the basis for my personal statement, one of the documents I submitted when applying for Grad School in English. I referred to cinnamon alone. One to demonstrate to admissions committees, my lifelong devotion to reading and writing. And it worked. Among other things it got me accepted to my master's program. And later, it got me here to the PhD. I'd venture to say that nearly everyone else in Grad school has a suzy to. There's nothing better for a child than for somebody to take time with them and enter nurture something that that they're good at and. and make them feel good about themselves and you know, and these days and times especially Not, too, many children get a lot of one on one time with one adult who they love and he loves them and so. That's that's our special thing together. Besides providing fodder for my personal statement, Suzy's attention. Did something else something important? It instilled in me a belief that I was good at something because of Suzy's influence. This to me is how teachers are supposed to be. And as it turns out, I'm not alone in that opinion. and teaching to transgress education as the practice of freedom. World, renowned feminist scholar and professor bell hooks advocates for something. She calls engaged pedagogy. To teach in a manner that respects and cares for the souls of our students is essential, if we are to provide the necessary conditions where learning can most deeply and intimately begin. Hooks argues that caring for the souls of students or treating them as individuals. Whole unique people is the first necessary condition for training free thinkers. This holistic arrangement is transgressive. She argues because it defies the typical power dynamics position teachers as monolithic omnipotent, nowheres and students as blink passive learners. The gothic heroine typically starts her life under the care of such an engaged pedagogue, developing a baseline of trust and mutual respect for the Authority figures around her. She learns above all the importance of living her life in a moral way, always being thoughtful considerate of others. Oh my father. How exactly describe what? I felt so often, and which I thought nobody had ever felt but myself. This would explain why. From the outset of these novels, the heroin is clearly presented to readers. With quote subjective merit. According to Gary Kelly distinguished professor of English at the University of Alberta, an editor of the scholarly edition, varieties of female gothic, that subjective merit is the heroine's sense of self-worth. The comes from her sensibility or find feeling. Ellen Lukaku author of the Book Social Reform in Gothic writing concurs with Kelly's reading of the female heroine, she will be very sensitive. She will be artistic will be intelligent and most importantly she will be beautiful and she loves poetry. She loves looking at the landscape. She plays the lute. So which is like a, it's a feminine, Ideal Eighty and early nineteen th century. All of her sensitivity and moral goodness maker someone that readers are supposed to root for. A curious kind talented though admittedly naive person. She has been reared investigation after all. And, though the novel sometimes make it seem like they're. Protagonists were born with these admirable traits. I would argue that it's also often the case that they learned them under the care of ten of teachers. They were given a safe place to feel something they'll soon learn is rare. Because as I mentioned. These heroines often grow sheltered naive, and this trait definitely comes back to haunt them when they face their next typical plot development. What will happen is that there'll be some some precipitating event some rising action on that she'll be expelled from this home and she'll have to either go on the road, or she'll be abducted in some way or in this gothic novel. She'll go to Grad school. Sure. She's not expelled or abducted. In this story, she goes over own volition. But often what she finds when she gets, there isn't quite what she expected. Especially compared with her earlier more nurturing educational environment. I'm so proud of you in the original female gothic. Part of this precipitating event often involves overcoming orphaned. which in the most basic sense mentioned irreparably severed from those who cared for her in her early life. A common if socially constructed consequence of the Grad School Gothic to. Family members and friends from before Grad school often don't share the same frame of reference to understand your work, so you were excited to talk to you today, but you also told me that you are freaking out I was so what was? That, and can often feel like society more broadly. The distancing in intimidation that the ivory tower cast Senate shadow well I couldn't imagine anything that that I would have decide that that could help you with your. With your. Just Couldn't imagine that the first PhD in the family. So. We're probably now about halfway through the first volume of our gothic novel. The heroin has been swept away from the comforts of her nurturing, educational idol, and transplanted unaware into a house of horrors. because. She's a woman living well before. Any kind of women's rights are in effect, Her Life Aka her future marriage plants. will be entirely dictated by her new guardian. The most imposing gothic figure of all. The villain. The shadowy gruff and seemingly all powerful Lord of the castle. As her new caregiver, this villain ought to promote the heroine's quest to live a thoughtful meaningful life. But that's often far from the case. As Gary Kelly describes it in his study of the female Gothic the heroin will now be subjected to quote. Minister, by unknown forces, the mackin, nations of individuals with obscure inscrutable motives and or persecution by mysterious institutions or secret organizations. A far cry from the engaged pedagogy she's grown used to. This new monolithic. Holds the heroine hostage in his labyrinth like house to use her in some secret self-serving plot. Marrying her off to a detestable count or robbing her inheritance would be dowry for his own personal gain. He keeps her isolated through neglect, surveilling her constantly with a network of spies to ensure. She remains ignorant about his plans for her. If she does get too close to the truth, he'll throw her off the path with elaborate mind games that make her doubt. Her perceptions in her sanity. While readers can clearly see that, she's endanger. The heroine herself only since his it. And in the ensuing volumes will clutch are pearls as we witnessed her undergo trial after trial. An exhausting series of close calls from which you'll barely escape. In Grad School Gothic. Things aren't quite as blatantly diabolical. But the heroin does find herself in a daunting new educational environment that Leonard Cassuto of the book the Graduate School Mess Calls Quote Careless and short-sighted teacher, centered and neglectful. And I'm not the only person to note the similarity between these pedagogical unsound settings and the Gothic. Sherry Deafen associate professor of English at Campbell University identifies this trend in twentieth century, American Gothic novels in her two thousand eight book, the Schoolhouse Gothic even though we like to think of American schools as meritocracy that and vehicles for social advancement. Quite, likely to function in ways that re replicate existing power hierarchies rather than challenge them and you know I. This is why she wrote. The book says Truckin. To understand why teachers were cropping up as Gothic villains and all of these twentieth century American Novels Fair Not. Count Dracula and there is a monk and they're not. And yet I started to realize that there's a kinship there. There's the appearance of benevolence. And Assumption of benevolence that actually can serve as cover for something a lot darker. Locked away in dark damp office in the dungeon of some campus building. The Grad School. GOTHIC heroine will be subjected not to forced marriage, but to dark menaces and other forms including the exploitation of Labor mentioned earlier by Sydney Smith and forcefully condemned by Kevin. Birmingham If you. tenured. Or Tenure Track Faculty member in a she envies department. With. P. H. E. Candidates you are both the instrument and the direct beneficiary of exploitation. Girls as teacher. Adviser and committee member generate cultivate and export young people's. Devotion, to literature. This is the Great Shane. As I'll discuss more leader chapter. Birmingham statement comes from a bold and provocative speech. He gave right here on my own campus. But, for now I just want to point out that his comments gesture toward what many researchers have doctoral training have found to be the greatest menace of all graduate students whether they mean to be are not. The PhD adviser. I. Don't know how you feel about your advisors, but they. Really become like. These giants in your head. US like Avocados of your being. In the Grad School, Gothic the PhD advisor, or the Graduate Faculty member more generally. Holds enormous power over the graduate student. And if they're not careful, they can end up looking a lot like the diabolical villain of your. In their roles as teachers, mentors and writers of the all important letters of recommendation for jobs. Doctoral advisors truly do seem as Josephine Livingston, says here. Like arbiters of your being. Livingston, who goes by Joe? Earned her PhD in English from Nyu and now works as a staff writer for the New Republic. So in a story broke about an nyu graduate student. Nimrod reitman being abused by his PhD advisor the noted feminist scholar and professor of German and comparative. Lit Avatar now. Joe was well positioned to write an article about it. The case represents the very worst of what can happen when PhD advisors abused their power. A real life Grad school gothic tale. She was a kind of intimacy land with which he was not comfortable and she didn't realize things. Right so this the extended to Staying the night together, demanding attentions, making him onto phone calls You know it was at a party and onto defying and couldn't answer chronicle. She would get angry right inches. She claimed he had very strong clear. Rennell imposed herself in every aspect of her advises life out of a supposed need to serve her emotional health. She stalked him cornered and isolated him playing mind games by telling him. He was quote in denial when he resisted her advances, and that her therapist agreed he should go along with their intimate relationship. Hearing this one might wonder why. Reitman didn't just report his adviser on the spot for such an appropriate behavior. One reason as Sherry trofim points out because academe via is a place of power you know, and that makes it create. That creates conditions reviews because Howard is knowledge, power is the the power to create knowledge and be believed in academia. Power is the power to create knowledge and be believed. Rennell held more of that power than Reitman. He was in her castle her institution where she was protected. And as in the Gothic, the structure of that castle supports the abuse. Just on a pragmatic level. If, you're graduate advisers abusing you. You simply don't have much recourse. There's no HR department overseeing these working relationships. Only other faculty members who often have a vested interest in maintaining collegial relationships with their permanent peers over transient graduate students. Another reason right didn't come. Forward lies in the outsized role that PhD Advisors Play and the Pinnacle of their advisors educational journeys. Securing A job. As former PhD turned writing consulted K. Amion puts it in a chronicle of Higher Ed article that went viral back in two thousand seventeen, just after the news about Harvey Weinstein broke. Anytime, you have a highly competitive system in which a single person has the power to make or break someone else's career. Whether it's the crowded greasy pole of Hollywood or flooded pipeline. You will have abuse. Sure enough according to Reitman's account. Ronel had all, but promised him. She would get him an academic job when he finished his PhD so when? He did not have the option to withdraw affections because he essentially in the simplest fit which would be feeling upset and perhaps making his life? Of them. To marry the job of their Grad school dreams in other words. The heroin needs to find a way to give her gothic villain what he wants. At this point in Grad school gothic novel, some readers will be rolling their eyes. Hyperbole at its finest, they may be saying. The Renault cases one extreme isolated example of abuse that cannot and should not be generalized to describe any kind of universal experience of Grad School. Maybe so? Maybe, it's true that the majority of graduate students have an experienced sexual abuse at the hands of their advisors. But maybe where there's smoke, there's fire. Maybe as Cory Robbins said in an article for the chronicle of Higher Ed. The RENNELL Reitman. Scandal tells us more about quote. HOW INTENSE! How abusive the pervasive imbalance of power and academe really is than it does about sexual harassment. As? He says that imbalance of power is quote. One that many graduate students have had to negotiate. And should not have to negotiate. Or maybe that response of the eye rollers is itself part of what makes Grad. School, feel so gothic. The ease with which the experiences and identification of the persecuted heroine are disregarded and trivialized. When she says to authorities, figures I see that kind of thing happening on a smaller scale around me to. And Authority figures teller. She's overreacting or just plain wrong. It feels like the signature power move of the GOTHIC. Maybe that's why so many of the ivory towers most powerless are beginning to assert their right to say me too in the astounding if under. Metoo, movement, and academia. Maybe once rolling their eyes should consider what or who it is, they're trying to protect. Now back to our imperilled heroin. As if the villain wasn't enough to deal with, there's off another even greater threat haunting her in every corner of the castle. Literally? Is always been to do with ghosts phantoms. which comes back that which cannot be laid to rest? As, David Punter points out here. There's another defining feature of the trials and tribulations that gothic heroine undergo. And that's the relation between the present and the past. The notion of inheritance has always been interesting in Gothic because always the possibility of a very troubled inheritance. One term that is often used to think about these things facing is the old biblical notion of the the sins of the fathers, the way in which things which your forefathers may have dumb. And about which you may never about or not know about maybe the visited upon new. So that you'll quest in the gothic novel is sometimes to find out what is it? That's been done in the past, which means that I? have to suffer like this independent. Another reason the abuse between Nelin. Reitman is so indicative of the Broader Power Dynamics of doctoral advising. Is it does deal with powerful past that haunts us in the present. What we've inherited in the modern academic humanities according to Timothy Burke. Is something he calls? The Academic Star System the academic star, system. As nineteen nineties humanities. Created a group of people who believed they were better than everyone else. A group of people who are invested in believing the stars better than everyone else. This is done lasting damage to the humanities. Burke is a professor of history at swarthmore and after the Renault, reitman scandal broke. He went on a bit of a tear about it on twitter. Part of which you just heard. Back when humanities departments were more flush with university cash, he says they could, and did actively court fashionable intellectuals to join their ranks in particular people who are responsible for importing the radical and provocative European theory that would change the way scholars thought read and studied texts in the American humanities. Stars were recruited such prestigious positions. Burke says they were given a lot of leeway. and. They're becoming kind of almost cultish Lee successful figures within on a sad of academic disciplines in African system. Because in a way they have those connections. They're bringing something new to get more money. You get autonomy on a on a scale that other people don't get. you get freedom from some forms of responsibility on the name of the thought that you were thinking deep thoughts that no one else is thinking. And you have worked to do that. You need to be free to do. And at the same time, a kind of heedlessness about. the little people think. So how is this power of the past making us suffer in the present? For one thing, many of the stars from the eighties and nineties do still exist and are academic universe, despite the general downturn in the humanities influence judging by her CV, Renault would certainly seem to fit the bill. And because graduate students are well aware of this powerful constellation of stars. They're afraid to speak out when duiker. Here's Joe again so I could hud. Expanding nothing ever seems like a room when you hear it. But I had had people talking out Avatar in my time. And what you? Until Yeah I had had that she was this like. Pasta with very intense emotional relationships that has students. Asta Law. Although the nyu sexual harassment case didn't become public knowledge until August of two thousand eighteen. Reynolds abuses of power were already an open secret among Grad students. Whenever. Joe would express any kind of disappointment to her friends and colleagues about her own advisor. She says and people saying like, but you could have someone who was. Way into your life like I. So, that's how I heard about it kind of organically, although Grad students it why you knew in other words, nobody wanted to speak out against such a renowned. And for good reason. Another vestige of that power of the past that makes Grad student suffering the president. Turns out. There were plenty of other stars ready to rush to renounce defense up open letter was segmented amongst the highest echelons of. humanities especially in the theory received several hundred signatures. From the biggest stars of feminist scholarship, no less chief among them judith but. The incoming President of the Modern Language Association. The letter, which was addressed to the president and provost of nyu spoke out against right men. Claiming that he was on quote, a malicious campaign against Renault. But not only did these outspoken feminists believe the accuser, which is the basic feminist protocol in a situation like this? They also went on to us. Many of the same moves used by defenders of Harvey Weinstein. Renowned, talented and accomplished said. She holds an important position at a top institution. They knew her personally and could vouch that she just wouldn't do that. And finally if you fire her. There will be retaliation. What is? That's been done in the past, which means that I. have to suffer like this in the present. The. Renowned cheerleading are almost university intellectuals in once upon a time consider themselves cultural outsiders quit. Their colonial colonial scotus feminist thinking. They act as if they are politicized coalition defending vulnerable. Without, the awareness that they are now attended the published well of the powerful, precisely the demographic that need to press to investigate. As we near the end of this first volume of the Grad School Gothic. The truth of the heroine situation has begun to dawn on her. Despite her isolation, she's found a way to attain this knowledge by making allies of sympathetic, serving or two. or in the modern world, a growing body of her Grad school comrades emboldened to speak out on social media by movements like me to. Through her narrow window, she can see the castle ramparts tumbling down slowly stone by stone. And yet the fortress still stands seemingly held together by the sheer will of its towering overlord. Or maybe it's held together by what in the schoolhouse Gothic Sherry Trough in refers to as episode violence. There's a kind of violence in the way that we know or the way that we choose to know. Or the way that we more generally defined to define is to create boundaries around what something is and what it isn't to know. Something is true is to deny the truth of something else. Thus, says Trevon our entire way of knowing. The foundation of Western epistemology, upon which the Grad School Gothic is built. Is itself violent, because if we define scholarship as knowledge creation, as it's typically understood, but you also think of teaching as the construction of the educated student. Or the process of creating the educated mind. It's also sort of doing violence to that mind by how we define and circumscribe and limit creating and disseminating knowledge involves privileging certain ideas or experiences and denying others. When we decide what counts as knowledge? We tell certain people that we believe them and certain others that we don't. This argument about the insidious relationship between knowledge and power is derived from the work of highly influential philosopher and theorist. Michelle SUCO. Normally, we think that knowledge gives one power Co., said no, no, no, no well. He I mean he didn't say that was true, but he said. Power gives you knowledge because power is knowledge. He's really innocent. Saying that the teacher invents a student. The teacher defines the student and invents the student and creates the student. And and so you can see that in and of itself, perhaps as a kind of violent in this way, truffles, notion of violence is similar to what higher Ed Advocate Beth God be has referred to as episode injustice. Or denying someone their fundamental right to experiential knowledge. Rather than recognizing that their students already possessed valid and valuable knowledge that they do not. Much of which is gleaned from their unique life, experiences episodically, violent or unjust, teachers decide that they in their academic equals are the only ones who have the right to think. They know anything. In some cases, maybe it's yet another vestige of the academic star system that refuses to lay down and be buried. In others though it's purely accidental, you know being a college professor. Is You know about becoming certified as an expert in your field? It's not you know you don't really learn how to teach. Researchers of the doctoral training process have concluded the same thing that often the so-called violence occurs out of pedagogical ignorance. The product of PhD advisers themselves being trained to be scholars not teachers. As Bell Hook says academics are often the opposite of engaged pedagogues. During my twenty years of teaching, I have witnessed a grave sense of disease among professors irrespective of their politics, when students want us to see them as whole human beings with complex lives and experiences, rather than simply as seekers after compartmentalized bits of knowledge, even though they almost always mean well, PhD advisors often don't recognize how much power they have over. There advises self esteem and future careers. And, thus how much their roles as teachers and mentors matter. But as Leonard, Cassuto says. We've we've got to do things differently because we're wrecking people's lives? And does it's just unacceptable. and. So here we are at the end of the first volume of my Gothic dissertation. A heroin with subjective merit has entered a PhD program full of passion and trust in the benevolence of the system primed by her early caregiver. She still considers herself to be on a quest for meaningful life. But now separated from that mentor and unaware the she's been swept into a system of episode, violence setup consciously or not. By an academic discipline desperate to replicate itself. Often her ideas must change to fit the existing version of what counts as knowledge. Not the other way around. In the next volumes will follow the hair, raising trials and tribulations, she faces during her entrapment. But, what kind of Gothic? Novel with this be if this volume didn't end with some suspense cues responding with intense anger, as if I had done something to provoke anger as if I was responsible for his anger and. All I did was submitted a document that I was supposed to Smith. Next time on my Gothic dissertation. Mike Dissertation was written reported and produced by me Anna Williams. To hear episodes, read transcripts and see footnotes head over to my GOTHIC DISSERTATION DOT COM, you can subscribe to my Gothic dissertation wherever you get your podcasts including Lyceum, an new platform that brings together the most inspiring ideas, discussions and people in the world's first audio learning community. LYCEUM offers a unique online forum so if you'd like to engage directly with me about what you've heard, download the LYCEUM APP search for my Gothic dissertation and leave me a comment in the discussion room the theme Song For my Gothic Dissertation is stop running written and performed by Adam Ben Ezra. A big thanks to him for allowing me to use it. The website and Logo for my Gothic dissertation designed by Brett Forsyth of yellowhammer creative. Consultants were Ginger Marshall Michael Garoppolo and of course my dissertation committee who lifted the gate and allowed me to do this project in the first place. Thanks to everyone who let me interview them, they are. Sherry Toughen Kevin Birmingham deirdre Egan Virginia. CRISCO Meredith Elsie Isabel Scotney Elon Lou Elizabeth. Judith Pasco Susan Dingy David Lar- Palmisano Timothy Burke Joe Livingston Kristen Nap Janelle Schwartz that Barton Rene. Do Amy Polyps Kathy Meguro? And Sand Jenny Ben, Wa and my peers Laura Lydia Angela Lulu Caitlin Jamie Kathleen Pedro Philip. Maheen Jen Jillian and Marie Margaret Tori. Mattie Ian Brady Rachel and Carl. Finally I'd like to give a shoutout to the Iowa public radio talk show team who were my engaged radio pedagogues back in two, thousand, sixteen and Seventeen. Their Catherine Perkins Charity Nebi, then Keefer Lindsey. Moon Emily Woodbury Clare Roth and Dennis Reece. Thanks for listening and be sure to tune in next week.

Grad School Grad School Gothic heroin Nimrod reitman graduate student David Lar- Palmisano Timothy B Birmingham PhD advisor Ann Radcliffe US professor PhD adviser Gary Kelly BOB nyu Leonard Cassuto Renault Harvey Weinstein Schoolhouse Gothic Anna Williams
Epilogue: The Defense

My Gothic Dissertation

49:29 min | 8 months ago

Epilogue: The Defense

"It's May I two, thousand nineteen. And I'm in room three, thirty, one of the English philosophy, building. It feels unlike any other day I've ever been here because today is the day of my dissertation defense. The day I transform officially from being an amateur to a professional. Like the Prospectus meeting, this rite of passage takes place around a conference table. A. Bigger longer when this time. And again, I'm surrounded by committee members four enrolling chairs one on the screen in my laptop. Also. Joining us today is every English department chair to ever preside over this program in its long and venerable history. All gazing down on me from their framed portrait on the wall. Thankfully. They won't be saying much. Before we dive into the defense. Let me just say this. Listener, I passed it. I came I, saw I conquered. But really it was more like this. I came into the room I set up the recording equipment. I was asked to leave the room and turn off the recording equipment. This time apparently, their rights were to remain sacred. Well. It seems the only reason asked her to leave the rental is so we can speak frankly, and if we're being recorded that there's no point in having. I left the room for approximately nine minutes then came back for this again. Dr Anna, we want to congratulate you. I prefer Dr Williams but who splitting hairs at a moment like this? Here I am Dr. Anna Williams at your service. I'm told that not all defenses go this way. Not. Everyone gets welcome to back into the room and declared a doctor immediately sometimes they leave at the beginning comeback and swept through a whole defense only to leave the room again for their committees to deliberate on their fate. My being welcomed back as Dr Williams seems to corroborate the account of another faculty member. Who told me he heard had passed with quote flying colors. I don't know about that but I can tell you this. What happened in that meeting felt really really good not at all like sweaty awkward debilitating anxious committee meetings that had come before. This time I was in full possession of myself. This time I knew how to answer every question this time I said exactly what I wanted to say. Or. Almost. Exactly. In this final chapter of my Gothic dissertation, you'll join me on my triomphant escape from the Grad School Gothic. And then newly freed from the castle will venture together into the terrifying unknown of what comes next. So, here we go. After my nine minutes in the hallway I came back in and the defense started like the perspectives meeting. With, some direction from the radio scholar. We're GONNA go around the table and. We. Have things that we really really like about the tax also have questions about you know the way it was constructed things that are left out and and although the meeting did feel good and I did pass flying colors or no. There were still some moments of tension over the next hour and forty five minutes. It wasn't easy to do a dissertation, the critiques PhD. Training. To a primary audience of my own. Trainers. Every step of the way I was scared about how they'd react. Probably, the most common question people asked me when I told them about my project. was. and. How does your committee feel about this? Because not only do critique graduate treating. In? My gothic dissertation. My Committee members are actually characters in the story as the Victorian as pointed out. To interject something here. Interesting asset. There's particular work is. Clip. It's a romantic club. Reading this can recognize. The actors it. To some degree. The, committee didn't seem particularly fazed by their own representations in the story, but there was some concern about other characters that they knew in real life. In particular Laura's advisor in the chapter titled Invalidation and the Education of Emily St. Auber. To, refresh your memory, he was the academic star who enthusiastically chaired her cops committee, but then suddenly wouldn't commit to supervising her dissertation. The one she felt invalidated by who made her second guess herself at a return. Here's the eighteenth century is take on how I told that story. There's A. Missing Perspective to put it mildly and I know you're not making absolute truth claims about what's going on because you're talking about people's emotional experiences. but I did wonder about the ethics of circulating this edited version of what's going on within people for whom all the players are very much known figures as well as potentially a larger context. This was a scary moment for me. It felt like I was being accused of doing something unjust when really I was trying to do just the opposite by advocating for disempowered Grad students. In the moment I said this. I guess the way I see it and justify it is that this is. In my opinion. The Voice of someone who is on the bottom of a power dynamic. and. Her voice deserves to be heard and I'd never identified the person at the top and I would be I agree that it would be ethically unsound to be throwing this person under the bus without giving that person you know a right to fair trial or whatever I think that you raise a good point and I still feel passionate about making sure that that story is heard her perspective deserves to be heard. Her perspective deserves to be heard. Looking back I'm proud I was able to muster this response. But there's more I. Wish I had said. To be precise there are three more things I wish I'd said, I. The missing perspective is mostly due to the fact that in the current system, there's no official channel through which lure could voice her experience with the powerful professor and give him a chance to respond. After Students complete their coursework. There are no more student evaluations. Presumably, because students have handpicked there committee members and therefore willingly signed on for whatever comes next. But when departmental scarcity or the Prestige Economy Limited. Students, choices for. Advisors. That is when they only have a handful of tenured professors to choose from or like Laura they feel compelled to work with a certain start increased their job potential. Then the you signed up for this argument doesn't really hold water anymore. Under the current circumstances PhD students can truly get trapped an unhealthy advising relationships with no one to turn to for save conversations about it. Except other Grad. Students. Who share these incidents in a kind of whisper network? Remember Joe Livingston until I had had that she was possibly with very intense emotional relationships the students. oeste lock these whisper networks exist because they're the only outlet for students to warn one another about who isn't so easy to work with. And they're also only place PhD students can turn to for support. It happened to come of times complaining about my own advice I heard like she wasn't showing up for me in. And saying like, yeah but you could have someone who was. Way into life like. How great would it be? If as David Kuebler suggested the last chapter. There was some sort of oversight for PhD adviser. Advisory Relationships. Some system that allowed advises the opportunity to provide feedback about how things are going. Maybe that feedback system could be backed up by a set of departmental standards for advisory relationships. One that Grad, students helped craft and revisit periodically to revise. Then if things go south in advising relationships, the students at least have a document to point to as a sort of roadmap to help them correct course themselves. You know. kind of like a contract between the adviser and advise -I. In a normal workplace. That would be a no brainer. Now for the second thing I wish I had said. Looking back I see that there was actually one particular word in the eighteenth century is question that especially tripped me up. The word edited. Here it is. Again, I did wonder about the ethics of circulating this edited version of what's going on. Here's something that I wonder about. If I had done the opposite. And presented only the professors perspective on what happened between him and Laura. Wouldn't have occurred to the eighteenth century or anyone else for that matter. To Call my presentation of the story edited. I can't know for sure but it seems to me that the professors perspective wouldn't be automatically doubted in the same way. Because, he's been granted the ultimate authority on what really happened Bernita to happen between him and his advisors. Here's the thing them. Loris perspective ought to hold just as much weight as the professors. That's just basic human respect but also there's a professional reason. In the several decades between when this professor got his PhD and Laura was getting hers a major shift had occurred. Except for maybe the most prestigious Ivy League schools. Today, the vast majority of English PhD students are expected to teach a lot during their graduate programs. Because of that shift, they receive much more pedagogical training, then PhD students of the past. And they have hours and hours of real hands on experience working students, I had a student last semester who came into the class. He was a new freshman and he got a C. minus on his first paper. he came to my office hours he broke down in tears and said colleges really hard for me. I don't understand what's required of me. and. After meeting with him several times to every assignment, he was one of three or four students who earned in my class. And if he had a different rhetoric instructor, he would have completely slipped through the cracks. And the first-class teaching. The semester has three students in it that are in there because their friends from my last semester course recommended me to them. I have a couple of students who chose me. Lose outstanding teaching as a result of her personal traits. Yes. But also of the gazillion hours of teacher training rhetoric instructors like her are required to take for support. So by the time, we get to the point of working closely with an adviser dissertations. We've flogged a lot of time and energy in the thoughtful study and practice of pedagogy. which was not often the case in decades past. If we feel disappointed when our own advisers seem less than up to date on best teaching practices we do so with plenty of authority. I think what I do is important. Anything teaching is important. and. This is a really good example of how not to advise and how not to teach. in some ways I felt like I was in when I met with him I felt like I was having to teach him how to advise me. not because I know how to advise graduate students but because I know how I need to be advised looked at this way, I don't think my focus on the side of the story amounts to an edited version of events at all. This is professional critique from hardworking and highly motivated student slash teacher who was rightfully disappointed with her advising relationship because she knew she deserves better. And Third Let's say I had wanted to get her advisors perspective on what happened between the two of them. How was I supposed to do that? Exactly. Just realistically. But how was I supposed to approach him and say look your former adviser told me that this thing happened between the two of you Care to comment. Remember he was highly respected tenured professor. And I was still a student in the program. Like Laura. I also feared retaliation. And like Could he even comment legally? Given the restrictions on sharing student information mandated by the laws. So to sum up I think the question of whether it was unethical to not include the advisers perspective. Really. Fails to take into account the conditions under which Grad students are forced to operate. The conditions that this entire project was designed to bring to light? I think those conditions themselves account for the missing perspective. And it's up to tenured faculty, not graduate students to change that situation because they alone have the power to do so. If only I could have mustered up that kind of response in the moment. I guess my courage around such conference tables. Still need some fine-tuning. which brings me to this next moment of tension. I. Knows that all the contemporary appears you discuss her female and that the only professors given voice are female with one exception which was David Google I may have misunderstood but what we're hearing are. female students and silenced professors again. This moment at first triggered feelings of terror. At. The thought that I had oversimplified the very complex gender dynamics at play and the world professional academia. But then there was also a healthy dose of rage at the phrase silence to male professors. As if the largely male and largely white professor yet has ever truly suffered from being silenced. Luckily as gathered myself, the romance is tied my back. And tenth and palm. Mino- in Timothy Burke. CULTURE IS A. Specialist Dr. Only three there. Okay. Then I retract that. Absolute. Thank you. Romantic assist. With the eighteenth century was suggesting was that specifically in my discussions of real life abuse in Grad School. I paint all the villains as men and all of the victims as women. I think that absolute worth retracting to though because in the Grad School Gothic Chapter I tell the story of Avatar Rennell. The. Feminist scholar PhD adviser who was accused of sexually harassing and assaulting her male advise e. Whose transgressions were then covered up by some of the most prominent woman identified feminist scholars in the United. States. I clearly had not written a dissertation that suggested all men were bad and all women were good. Or that all academic abusers were male and all victims female. My panic at the question almost made me forget. So my advice to Grad students in these situations is this. Don't always believe the interpretation of your own work that you're being given. Especially, if it makes you feel panicky. The reader or viewer listener may have just missed something. If. You're being told you made an argument that you didn't intend to make. Maybe you didn't actually make it at all. And if you did by accident, we all make mistakes and it can be fixed. And not that anyone is asking, but my advice to advisory committee members is. Be Like the Romanticism. Keep. An eye out for fouls and call them when you see them. Also. Just remember to be generous and fight fair. Because at the end of the day, you're advisers are ultimately still struggling for your approval. What did you find was the hardest part of readiness? The hardest part of writing it, I think was being scared of. What you all would say about it, I, think that. I knew that I was making myself vulnerable I was going out on a limb. And I was critiquing. The very audience that was writing to. And I was worried that the spirit of my critique would be lost and that it would be interpreted in a way that cast me in a very unflattering light. and. I think that honestly that was the hardest part of writing it for me. was that I would be. Interpreted as. Being petty or insulting or bitter or. Not trying to do something positive overall with my critique. Boom that was real honesty and vulnerability. Exactly. What I wanted to say when I wanted to say it. If I remember correctly the Victorian EST seemed surprised by my response. If that was truly the case maybe she had assumed I was more confident and cavalier in my criticism then I really was. It was nice to remind her and even myself that at the end of the day I did still care what she thought. The way the system is set up. I kind of have to. But also, I had worked with her for years and I respected her still do. That moment felt good and so did this one when the eighteenth century has responded to my question about what it was like to serve on the Committee for this project? I WanNa say has been wonderful. It's been. It's all in the end But again, my perception of my role in this has been my perception of what my role is for all graduate students, which is one of deep care and trying to provide professional guidance, and it is forced me to reflect on not only my rhetoric but also the institutional contexts or so in which my comments or. permitted. I would say it has opened my eyes to some of the aspects of that experience in ways that I might not have apprehended before. Before I found many of your critiques or points to be. Compelling. If not persuasive and I think I would stand by a dissertation should provoke critical pushback. It should provoke a disagreement. So disagreement is not the same thing as finding it to have no value or merit. And I hope you hear that I do. So there you have it. Dissertation Concord Degree Accomplished Grad School Gothic Castle escaped in adrenaline pumping hair-raising. Deeply satisfying manner. When the meeting ended people began clearing out. Offering, their congratulations and asking me to send them this very epilogue once it was completed as they dashed out of the room to attend other defenses around other conference tables in the EP. As I gathered at my things and made my way out. I opened the door to find a familiar face. It, dear friend for my cohort offering the a handmade Tiara she'd fashioned from one of her daughter's baby borates with three handmade letters. PhD. Taped to the top. It was a reminder that for me. This was the end of a long personal journey toward a certain kind of enlightenment. Not Necessarily, my supposed expertise in gothic fiction but really more of a belief in myself in my ability to prove my worth against dark mystified forces. As I embraced my friend. I. Felt six years of worry and struggle dissipate into the dark hallway. I packed up the recording equipment. Gathered my things and together we made our way down the stairs and out of the ugliest building in Iowa for what would be one of my last times. We passed through the dreaded parking lot full. Now please wait and paused to snap pictures in front of the campus Red Bud. Trees. Just blooming in the late Midwest Spring. Then it was up the riverbank. Pass the university's iconic gold dome. and onto the bar where my husband and more friends awaited for celebratory drinks. The Grad School gothic having now receded below the horizon behind me. A new perhaps, even more terrifying apparition appeared on the road ahead. What now? I will be a failure if it's going to change a culture doctor, you have your life. I spent a really a lot longer than I needed to chasing something that I probably wasn't ever going to get I think people especially outside of academia underestimate what a psychological sold it has on you. These are the voices of what have come to call the academic quit literati. We'll get to them in a minute. But for now. Let. Me just say this. Leaving academia is hard. But that's what I did. I left. Maybe, you saw this coming. I have been framing my PhD quest as an escape after all. But before we get to the leaving, let me tell you about the time I tried to stay. After so many years of training for a degree that everyone thinks is good for exactly one thing. Being a professor. I decided I'd give it a go on the academic job market. By the way is notoriously competitive and soul-crushing. But nevertheless in the fall semester of my final year as I finished up this podcast, I joined thousands of other graduating English. As, we heaped together the ten million documents required for an academic job application. I painstakingly assembled my CV. I wrote tore apart and rewrote May to page cover letter describing my past present and future academic career. I've piled together my teaching portfolio waxing poetic in my statement philosophy. Collecting and collating student evaluations. Arranging faculty visits to my classroom. So they too could wax poetic and their letters of recommendation. I paid for an online service to collect and deliver those letters of recommendation ensuring future employers that had never laid eyes on the letters myself. So therefore, they must be true reflections of my worth. I gave myself headaches trying to boil down my dissertation into a two page abstract. Pulled Bullshit out of the air to construct a research statement about the career I plan to build out of that still unfinished dissertation. Each of those documents by the way was then tailored to fit each specific job ad I was answering slightly working in the mission statement of the department in school who had placed it. If this sounds like a bloated bureaucratic application process. That's because it is. It's designed to help hiring committees narrow down candidates from the vast ocean who apply for each job. On top of the laundry list of documents that they ask for. Academic Job ads also often call for intensely specialized of expertise to fill gaps in their departments. So if the average candidate wants to apply. It takes some serious contortion to present themselves as a good fit. Besides, needing to have a very specific constellation of interests and expertise. If a job candidate has any preferences about where they want to live and work. Perhaps, a desire to be close to family or to accommodate partners career. Then the options become even more narrow. Being unwilling to control myself too much. I applied for only twenty jobs. A modest number compared to most. Pardon me was hoping that this whole first podcast dissertation thing would make me stand out in the crowd. Not. So really. and. The sad thing is in trying to convince those twenty committees that I was the perfect fit for the position they were advertising. I often ended up convincing myself that I was the perfect fit. That this job was the one and only key to my future happiness. And so despite all of my skepticism and jaded nece, it was still crushing when in the end I only got two interviews. One at a very prestigious school for a job that fit my training very well, but that nonetheless went very poorly. Thank you imposter syndrome. And one at my own institution for temporary visiting, assistant? Professorship. That had little to do with my training but that nonetheless went very well. It was a liferaft thrown out by benevolent department to keep my CV afloat for a year. So it could try my hand at the academic job market again. But in the end after being offered the job. I turned it down. Opting. Instead. For the rocky road out. But. I knew plenty of others who braved it before me. So I decided to seek them out. I think I felt the need to. Semi Self destructively. Set off a bomb the there's like. No turning back. This is Dr Jessica Collier. A PhD in Nineteenth Century American literature who graduated from the University of California Irvine and then like me. Made a break for it. On her way out the bomb she said off was an article. Jail Breaking my academic career I think one of the things that's really hard. About leaving academia is that by the time you've finished. A PhD, your entire life is there. It's your friends. It's in most cases the only professional connections you have. When you? It's very tempting to keep it a secret. Railing, you're secretly sort of plotting your escape from Gothic Castle. And I kind of was tired of sneaking around feeling ashamed of this kind of path that I was taking. So I wanted to say something. Publicly say something publicly she did essentially comparing academia to a jail that she had to break free from. As she explained in our interview, she came to see academia as a total in culture the consumed every aspect of her life giving her little room to exist outside of her academic persona like everything is constrained everything is restricted. You can't operate outside of the sort of total culture of space. And I think you know. That became the part of academia for me. That was really really tough. My research interests like kind of aligned with exploring these defiant cultural moments that worked against a total culture and It felt really odd to be researching that and writing about it, and then kind of operating myself inside of this total culture that didn't really allow for any flexibility even though this is the case that academia is rigid and exhausting an all consuming. Jessica still felt the need to blow up the bridge behind her so she didn't feel tempted to creep back across it. because. Part of the way academia is totally. Is. It institutionalizes you. Making it difficult to exist anywhere else. Jessica's breaking article is one very good example of quit lit. A genre writing in which embittered former academics make public declarations about the reasons they're leaving the ivory tower. It's gained surprising popularity in the last ten or fifteen years, but then again. Maybe it's not so surprising since the decision to leave often comes with a potent mixture of emotions. Resolve anger sadness nostalgia bitterness. That don't have a formal anywhere else. In academia, there are no exit interviews. No formal system to air your grievances into or to pleasingly tell the story of your relic backbreaking efforts that were brutally. Tragically never quite enough. In that way, the academic quit literati have made the road from academia a little less rocky by sharing how they've coped with leaving a place, a culture, a profession. That's taken a little part of their souls. If they knew wasn't right. Just began to like deeply suspect that. There could be a life. In Which? I wasn't miserable all the time. In what felt complicated about that is that? In theory. I loved I like teaching I loved writing. Very much. My identity was embedded in the life of the university. And yet. This is Sabina mcallister another escapee who earned her PhD and Political Science From York University and then went on to found something called the leaving academia project, which included a blog, a career counseling service, and guess what? PODCAST. Welcome to leaving academia the podcast about former academics finding successful post academic careers. Sabina decided to pursue her PhD and. She says because she grew up in a very politically minded family. They would listen to the six o'clock news together every night during dinner. By the time she went to college, she had become a little bit of an activist. She says in her experience, an Undergrad political science classes made her feel like part of a community. which unfortunately she found was no longer the case when she started Grad School. Sabina says that the work of getting her PhD felt lonely even depressing. And also, so highly specialized that her passion for the subject was eventually sucked right out of her. By the time she hit the dissertation stage. She had quote just enough gas left in the tank to finish and get out. I knew that there really could be a life beyond academia and I really wanted to try to normalize that and to China spotlight on it because I knew what it was like to be somebody who was like I will be a failure if I eileen. which is like how Larry US like I did have a committee member who I'm pretty sure like I think he looked down knows a little bit at my decision and so okay they can be off in the corner being like, wow, wasn't she a failure or a loser? You know what let them fill their boots you have to make your decisions based on what you want. If like me you're wondering what on Earth Fill your boots means. Dori I've got you lake fill your boots with all your feelings of hatred towards me that you want like it's what you think of me is not my business as they say but what she says about the invisible internal work that it takes to leave the academy. Yes For some it can take years of languishing in the adjunct pool to finally complete that internal work and decide to leave which is exactly what happened to recruiter. Rick is another. This time in classics who left the academy and wrote about it. After graduating from Ohio state. Rick hopped all across the country chasing temporary academic. Before finally giving up in landing happily instead. At. A private high school in took about four years for five years and I. Think. Do Regret. Spending seven years afterwards chasing. An, ever receive being. And Testicle position I don't know if the right whereas denial but I really. Had A hard time accepting that I wasn't going to be competitive with. The Coming. Out of really top to your program last year I was teaching in the university that was twenty thirteen to twenty fourteen. I had wine interview I had. A Book Manuscript under contract I had articles in print. I had a mile long list of classes that I taught from undergraduate graduate seminar. I had one interview. and. That's what it was like. You know what? This just isn't happening for me. For many, there's this grieving process that comes along with the decision to leave academia. But at least for Jessica Sabina in Rick. Going through that process and coming out the other side made them stronger. As individuals and as professionals I would argue. All three of them fell in love with their academic subjects early. Or maybe not quite academic subjects but the ways of thinking that are most often channeled through those subjects in our system of education. I mean I think like a lot of people I grew up as one of those students who Was the best and the brightest in the class and sort of had an inextinguishable passion for reading and writing I mean I think for a long as people? You end up going in an academic path because you're good at it. And Because So many signs of external validation and you get along the way I decided at the age of seventeen that I wanted to be your. Classics My. Time said, Hey, you know there's this summer program as you can imagine it with a total your best but it was really really. Magical transformative experience for me and when they realized, they wouldn't find academic careers that would allow them to continue practicing those ways of thinking that they loved. They got creative and found other places where their PhD skills would be valuable. I up Jessica I was working out of a coffee shop in San Francisco like working on my dissertation every day and I had been meeting people around to kind of always want to know what's your story and when they found out what I did they were kind of like Oh. So you understand words like maybe you could help me with these words and that's sort of how I started getting freelance work. Her understanding of words got her all the way from those first freelance gigs to her current position as the CEO of spot. An APP that makes it easier and safer for people to report workplace. Abuse. As for Sabina. So I worked as a policy analyst for a little while and then I brought a lot of. Really. Critical Analytical Thinking into my role and also learned a lot very quickly about healthcare system. And like kind of just kept on getting promoted in that job. She's now very happily the manager of policy and strategy at the College of registered psychotherapists on -Tario and rick like I said, he found his way into teaching classics at a Private High School in Nashville. It was an overwhelmingly positive experience for me And it was just such a breath of fresh air. There really needs to be a lot more work done to articulate the ways that PhD training is also really good preparation for working in all kinds of industries outside of academia. In his book, the Grad School Mess Leonard Cassuto talks about PhD's ability to synthesize large amounts of information. that. There are so many other real tangible skills besides that. Things like writing and editing. Sure. But, also complex thinking. The ability to recognize and Parse out complicated problems with multiple issues intersecting at once, and then given all the teaching experience present solutions clearly and precisely. And again if they underwent all that pedagogical training and logged all those hours leading classrooms, humanities PhD's. Good at breaking down tasks organizing and managing teams building workflows in creating an open healthy culture of communication. Despite the widespread notion that they're not so good at collaborating with others. Because as Jessica noted during our conversation. In the current state of things. Can Cause a lot of I rolling out in the so called real world, there's a notion that they're out of touch. I get intro emails from from people who are sort of feeling out there transition. That are easily two thousand words long and. I I've seen. Working really hard to kind of frame their experience as directly applicable to. Whatever kind of industry roll it is looking for and I think what would be a lot more effective? People need to be willing to say I have no direct industry experience. Here are the things that I have done I think transfer really well. I. Put them into a format that it's easily digestible and quite. Visual and not text heavy. So even after one escapes from the Grad School Gothic, they can still be haunted by the less than desirable traits of academia. At the end of all of this after hearing how they're PhD's were disappointing in some ways didn't lead to a clear career path and haunted them emotionally and professionally. I asked these members of the quit. Literati Jessica Rick Sabina. If, they had come to regret getting a PhD in the first place. Oh No no, no, no I don't personally regret getting a PhD. I wouldn't be the person who I am like I wouldn't have the brain that I have to think that I think even though I don't use a PhD in a very super direct way like looking right things for me to do at that time in my life my only regret that. So many years post PhD moving across the Country Multiple Times taking one year jobs thinking that it was going to result in a good position symbolize. The little bit of an exit central question. It's like asking me like, do you regret being the person you are? I can't regret any decisions amyloid in my life because they all lead me up to where I am now and where I am now. Is like pretty great. As for me, where I am now is the proverbial big city. New York. Opted for the rocky unsteady road from the Grad School Gothic to hear. Because I was convinced my degree is really good for this podcasting thing and New York seemed like the land of opportunity when it came to finding a job in podcasting. And by job I mean just that. I envisioned myself landing in an office somewhere working nine to five. Though of course, those hours would be flexible. Cassette office would be very relaxed progressive. I'd be surrounded by brilliant and corky colleagues who ran out for Kale Salads together at lunchtime each day. Side by side in our eccentrically decorated air cubicles. We'd spend hours editing compelling and meaningful audio stories together. Periodically removing our headphones to bounce ideas off one another, and then walk down the hall for Energetic editorial meetings. When the WORKDAY was over I imagined we debrief over bespoke cocktails at happy. Hour. The night go home to my tiny but stylish apartment in whip up dinner from the New York. Times. COOKING COLUMN Surrounded by my husband and two cats. I drift contentedly off to sleep each night wrapped in the security of my 401k. My health benefits my paid paternal leave. Listener. This dream was delusional. Even before the covid nineteen pandemic which hit New York just six months after I moved here and has now made any dream of office conviviality seem out of reach. Not to mention the 401K. I wish I had a happier ending for you. But after all. This is a gothic novel. At the end of Udal photo, emily remains trapped in eternal deference to patronizing authority figures. In villette. Loose. No hints cryptically that her long-awaited Fiance died in a shipwreck. Leaving her live out her days in isolation and morning. And of course, Victor Frankenstein dies in the Arctic aboard Robert Watson ship. His creature returning to curses dead body one last time before going off to end his own life alone in the frozen wasteland. Likes the doomed protagonists who came before me. Maybe I've escaped castle only to remain trapped in the larger system that built it. In my case, an economy that seems to assign very little value to creative and intellectual work. Might escape the podcasting world seems to have led me straight into the GIG economy. Where the jobs are always temporary, the benefits are nonexistent and the workers are trapped in a never ending search for the next paid project. My. Own Personal version of imposter syndrome health. All of which is to say that nine to five job I was envisioning seems just as rare as a tenure track job in academia. It looks as though the podcasting world has its own version of adjunctive occasion. Only, here they call it something else. Freelancing. Being a free lance. An independent sword for hire. A mercenary night. Roving Medieval Europe with no principles to fight for just a hunger for battle. Because after all, that's what the term freelance really means. And surprise surprise it refers to the very age in which most Gothic novels took place. The dark. Ages. So in the end. Do I regret getting a PhD. I don't. It made my lance sharp. But my principal sharper. And I won't give up that easy in the fight to find value for myself and others like me. Nicic dissertation was written, reported and produced by me Anna Williams. To hear episodes, read transcripts and see footnotes head over to my GOTHIC DISSERTATION DOT COM, you can subscribe to my Gothic dissertation wherever you get your podcasts including Lyceum, an exciting new platform that brings together the most inspiring ideas, discussions, and people in the world's first audio learning community. LYCEUM offers a unique online forum. So if you'd like to engage directly with me about what you've heard, download the LYCEUM APP search for my Gothic dissertation and leave me a comment in the discussion room. The theme song for. My gothic dissertation is can't stop running written and By Adam Ben Ezra. A. Big. Thanks to him for allowing me to use it. The website and logo for my Gothic dissertation were designed by Brett Forsyth of yellowhammer creative. Consultants were Ginger Marshall Michael Garoppolo and of course, my dissertation committee who lifted the gate and allowed me to do this project in the first place. Thanks to everyone who let me interview them they are Jessica Collier Sabina mcallister Rick Raider. Adam. Capitani. Oh Pr Presidio. Sherry. Toughen Kevin Birmingham deirdre Egan Virginia Crisco Meredith Elsie Isabel Scotney. Do. Elizabeth Allan Judith Pascoe. Susan Mingling David Kuebler Palm No. Timothy Burke Joe Livingston Kristen NAP Janelle. Schwartz Matt Barton Rene Do Amy Police Kathy Mago. Any Sand Jenny Ben Wa and my peers Laura Lydia Angela Lulu Caitlin Jamie Kathleen Pedro Philip Machine Jen Jillian and Marie Margaret Tori Mattie Ian Brady Rachel, and Carl. Finally, I'd like to give a shoutout to the Iowa public radio talk show team there Catherine Perkins Cherry Nebi then Keefer Lindsey Moon Emily Woodbury Clare Roth and Dennis Reece. Thanks for listening.

PhD Grad School Committee professor Laura Lydia Angela Lulu Caitli Dr Jessica Collier Grad School Gothic Dr. Anna Williams Jessica Sabina advisor Rick Raider Iowa Grad School Gothic Castle PhD adviser Dr Anna department chair New York faculty member Academic Job
Real Monsters: Josef Fritzl

Real Monsters

1:16:21 hr | 2 d ago

Real Monsters: Josef Fritzl

"Hello hello hello. This is west from real monsters. Nuggets wanted to take a few seconds in talk to you about pinker. It is the easiest way to make a guest and believe me. That was something that i was looking for men. I had to take over the tech side of our operation. It's free that allows you to do a lot of stuff when you get in there so head on over to anchor dot. Fm start today to get your opinions out be heard it can definitely help you. Can all right is another fine. Fine thursday evening here in real monsters land. I am your host escape barrett. Joining me is the ever popular west hob rick. I guess it could be an appropriate greeting this time. Around to say gooden tug we will get that rate absolutely true. We have been absent for two weeks because Less than i have been trading off ailments and we finally managed to be well enough to at the same time to get back to us. We can do it and let's jump right into. We have some history today. I don't today actually actually quite a bit to cover on frizzell. As i was kind of clear in our facebook on their that we're switching a little bit with the format. We're not going to be going anywhere with todd game. But i've been condensing alabama notes into our goals on these things starting with fritz saw the by the way the For anyone interested the description of the show has the linked to this. Very fine article. Thank you yeah it does. It is in there and i was just going to grab it real quick and drop it into the chat if anybody needs it. I decided to go with the description over just doing that. Chat side though because still in the facebook description. And it's not here it's a copy and paste it but This guy he did have one charge of murder under him that other than that. He didn't killing me but still i think he's unequivocally the worst. We're gonna talk about fascinating. Yeah you know it it it is. It's an interesting concept that we have as a as a race in fact considered murder to be the ultimate crime You know going back. You know many tens of thousands of years before any kind of civilization. That was always. You know the worst thing you could do and yet and yet there are things that ah per one person can do to another person. That might actually be worse. Yes i honestly think that one of them is incest that formed a big part of the research. That i did was especially freud's totem and taboo all about the incest. Taboo pretty interesting takes more anthropological. Look but he's listed in one of the sources and further reading of that that i put at the end of the article on medium there but incest would be has always been considered right up there for sure. Yeah universally tabooed basically meaning. Yes pretty much. Any culture says no to it punishes harshly. And you know a lot of that. I think kinda of gets back to the genetic issues. Come about from incest. Very many really cruel genetic afflictions that come from incest. Yeah yeah yeah more than a few there but to get this story stafford a european royalty royal families how that works out. Oh that's true. Being which one of them wasn't it like richard something number. I can't remember. I'm not that good at medieval history. Of course by the one who was like hunchback had a bunch of issues from that. Oh yeah yeah. We'd have to ask kellyanne all about that. But you know. The germans slouches when it came to Royal incest either. Oh no yeah no. i mean. They definitely weren't at least until world war wine. Kaiser was booted but to get things started off here. Wanted to just set up a scene for anybody who is listening This is nine hundred. Eighty four in a small town in austria amstetten. It's on the West german side of. What's going on because we're still talking about like the berlin wall going up right. We will year we talking about here. Nineteen eighty-four okay. Yes so the wallet is up still yes. And while they aren't on the soviet side of it they are pretty close to the iron curtain asset were And just this scene there in austria is a seventeen year old girl who opens her eyes in the pitch black around her. Ner heads blake the wheels on the bus that she at hop to vienna a few weeks earlier guy tried to get away from something that was terrifying her at her own pain. Course through just all over and she attempts to steady yourself and gets off the cold concrete floor it's on. Meanwhile the dirt on it is soiling her beautiful rust colored hair pretty badly There's no site down there in dark seller. Msci blindly gets up and gropes around and when she tries to do that he's yanked back down with the commence force and just the sound of crinkly chains that you would expect in a dungeon. Attached to the dropping of water in another room also making noise and scurry of rats and roaches. Right lovely and then the sellers locked slowly starts to turn and she hears the sound of heavy steps. Creaking on scare wayes down. Then a flashlight beam interface. And she's not she's still listen. Totally sure what's going on but little. Did she know that. This ordeal of hers is going to last twenty four years so it starts when she's seventeen goes on for twenty four more years. Yes while i do think that she knew that it was going to be at the hands of her own. Father later termed the monster of amstetten austria. Just fritz all getting she. Did you think she did suspect that i do. And we'll get to the reasons for that when we get further down in the history but fritz will has an interesting histories born in nineteen thirty five any amstetten lower austria in his another maria fritz. All our after she meets his dad maria. Fritz a was the illegitimate child of a miller in just grandmother this is. It's kind of hard to explain this dynamic. The grandmother was sterile so what happens. The miller begins basically you know liaisons with the made centered in their home with the express purpose of adding kids and maria was one of those but his his grandmother was sterile. Yes yes his actual grandmother that raised maria with sterile. Okay like i said. It's a family dynamic at this grandmother. You mean the wife of the miller. Okay whiteson miller and the biological mother of maria the bat or the biological grandmother of fred sel but she still aides maria and she also had an effect in fritz by two as we'll see so another knocks up a servant girl and has frit mom yes but the miller and his wife keep the baby. Yes okay got it. And then we get to nine thousand nine hundred seventy four. When fritzy's mother meets a drifter also called joseph fritzo gusset fritz senior basically and then one year later joseph fritz juniors born in thirty five and to set up a bit of context there. We're still talking about three years for what was called. An sluiced was hitler's nonviolent. I guess you could say oddly enough. It was his nonviolent invasion of austria. An annexation of right. She didn't fighters shot to do that. Right. he just overwhelmed him. Well yeah and then you have the other fact that basically ninety percent of that kind of tree wanted to be part of the third reich when he went in one thousand nine hundred forty bad choice. Not not that. They could've stopped him anyway. No no absolutely couldn't but yeah they wanted it overwhelmingly But yeah after. Joseph junior they. Joseph who's subject of what's going to be going on is born. They the family lives at forty eib. Stresa in amstetten this about ninety miles. From where hitler himself was born in austria so forward to nineteen forty wine. Joseph senior is fighting on the eastern front during the war had not a not a good assignment. Now not at all. I mean it was bloody and just horrible out there. But the conditions that we're going to be non for those of you don't know the germans lost some approximately a million soldiers on the eastern front. Jesus yeah well. I didn't know that number that. I the russians. Many many more but the russians had many many more. Well yeah. Interestingly enough in nineteen thirty nine. maria actually booted just senior from their home. To not totally. Sure why this no like allegations of physical abuse by him or anything like that. He said he was a drifter problem. Him not have been the best worker. Yeah yeah he might spend. Which is you know. Probably worse than adultery in germany. Let's not forget that calls for man. Joseph junior saw hitler on march seventh of nine hundred thirty eight and after he was caught in the two thousands for what he did to elizabeth. His daughter went on to blame. Hitler and nazism in a whole other host of step for why he junior is a total piece of shit. Basically you know that seems kind of thin. Yeah yes sir. Put it lightly. But yeah joe. Junior would only come back to germany after being a pow in a soviet gulag in one thousand nine hundred forty eight and upon returning wow. That's pretty amazing. Because the number of german soldiers who were released from the soviet gulags is like i dunno. Ten thousand it's miniscule amount in. That's pretty smart. I guess it's not all that shocking. Considering stalin's brutality. I mean he had no reason special reason to turn them loose. He had slave labor and yeah and he was very fond of working his prisoners to death. This is true. That and i'm sure a lot of it was getting in there and punishing germany. Yes whitney did not totally unlike after world war one to that yeah. He came back in one thousand nine hundred forty eight and when he did. He was essentially shunned by maria and his son is being basically gutless. Shameful really yeah. I wonder what that was based on. Well he he was a soldier. He was captured. He survived fucking gulags. That's yeah with think. It's no small feat. No not at all in one would think that they would get the benefit of the doubt and oddly enough. We're gonna be talking about something very very close to this next week when we talk about our topic then okay because it happened essentially again and i'm not sure if it existed on germany on this side but for next week's topic i know on the russian side it existed as a cultural dynamic. That if you didn't kill yourself. You're basically branded a traitor. If you got picked up oh very similar to the japanese sense yeah prisoner. Yeah i had never heard of that being true on the german side especially at the end of the war. When entire armies would surrender at one time. Maybe it wasn't true so much on that side. Individual cases sure could have been true. Yeah oh absolutely but yeah and even beyond that maria. I don't know if i explain this thoroughly. Maria was pretty off balance before the war started With many who knew her in instead basically saying she wanted a child but not the associated responsibilities of having a child Yeah yeah that's not how that works at all. Oh l. salute at all. I'm not even a father and no not at all. I would not do but Yes she would often beat berate and neglect junior. And in fact her fiery temper is like got her arrested by austrian puppet authorities of berlin after the nazis came in and she was sent to a concentration camp until nineteen forty five when she was liberated by the russians. I would assume wow right because they would not. They did not have mental hospitals in germany. That time they were very much in the job of emptying those out into concentration camps yes in mass graves if they saw you as a defective. Yeah he's lucky she didn't get shot over that you know the only reason she would have survived. Because if i remember from your article it was late in the war when she was sent yes so she must have been lucid enough to be a valuable worker. And that's the only thing that would have saved her life. it's true. I didn't think about that part. It's most likely true though. It's this huge stretch of time. We're talking about literally months at a time here and frit sabine ten years old. He's left essentially alone throughout this in the inam. Staten up the symbolism of this episode in his life is i think into become very very relevant when we give further down here. It was kind of amazing to me. In fact just how symbolic it is to him. But somehow before. Shortly before she was released he ended up in an orphanage too. But that wasn't for much time. Okay and then there. He was told repeatedly that his mother was dead. Which probably reasonable assumption. Not of not much of a stretch. Yeah i mean -solutely they probably had no way of knowing one way or another and might as well. Just you know yeah. That's a fair assessment assumption to make. Yeah absolutely because nobody was coming back from those camps ever is now i'll people went and they never returned. People had to know what's going on in austria had some ideas. They you know. There was probably a lot of whispers in suspicions rumors and shet- and likely none of those one of the rare cases where the rumor probably were not anywhere near the scope and horror of the reality. Most of the times rumors get blown out of the way out of proportion but not this time. No not at all but fast forward that time in nineteen forty-five out and is reunited with her son but her abuse of him didn't stop an impact. It was ramped up and good at time in the camp so fritz soul fritzell ended up standing up to her when he was fifteen and around that time as well. You also started to begin developing some pretty pronounced sexual deviancies repair of helias. As we've talked about before with other killers right primarily what he would do with voyeurism in wandering around as the different Apartment buildings vm. Stettin in listening for couples. Having sex really yeah. That's kinda different. I thought and it's really it's it's kind of almost you know innocent naive kind of thing is i mean it's pretty it's non-intrusive right listening. It's not peaking even peeking in windows yet. Absolutely yeah it's classified as a nuisance same sex crime but Yeah interestingly enough. Fritzell would ultimately lot maria in her own the attic when the witch the windows were bricked up in and she Died in there. She was bedridden and she died in their sounds. A lot like hitchcock really does Principal said in an interview with a Forensic psychiatrist in austria it. His motivation for that with simple revenge were everything so but as they usually do in these cases the nuisance type behaviors that he exhibited would escalate to. Yeah that's a common story. Yep and he starts on visiting prostitutes around especially nearby linz austria and a lot of them. Report him being a very very violent guy in their violent john so any also was actually picked up for exposing himself to young women and a Another pivotal case in his criminal history which will get to but at nine hundred fifty one. He's sixteen right or his bride rather. Oh no excuse me. I'm sorry in one thousand nine hundred eighty one. He has to lintz. Andy start studying and presumably on the job. Learning to be an engineer is they were very very in demand that time after the war And five years later he would meet his wife. Who would stick through him for most of us until the end. She was seventeen years old at the time. Rosemary buyers is her name and her dad actually worked at the firm as a technical assistant with fritz will so yeah and he was very impressed by her and what he particularly liked what he he just came straight out and said it obedience. See that's a bad sign in. It's another thing i think is very cultural. Yeah what's going on here. And it's a big reason arguably that he got away with what he was doing for twenty four years they you know they people in amstetten austria. They just don't want to get involved if they see something You know but by nineteen sixty three. Just been rosemary. Were married with three children. Two daughters one son and that year. He is sent by his employer ghana for a business trip. I think it was meeting with the suppliers something but gone ghana africa. Yup he doesn't return until one thousand nine hundred sixty five two years. They're not totally sure. Why but Yeah in true form for what he was a narcissist and a psychopath e-essentially divorced her in two thousand twelve for quote failing to see me him in prison. Not that yeah another thing that he bitched about with the media coverage after all this unfurled was being called a monster in it and seeing that i was just like fuck you. It's just horrible. But yeah he returns to linson. Amstetten actually worked in lens and one year later april. Eight one thousand nine hundred sixty six fourth child elizabeth is born and they know did when he got back in nineteen sixty five that the stress of seeing his children growing not being there and then the stress of herbert risk made him more of a autocrat around the house and he was very very much. 'cause say does in how he ruled over his family so i don't know how much of that is again cultural too but you know it's not inconsistent with this personality type. It's almost a. I don't know i keep thinking about reactive attachment disorder. That's true. I didn't think about that and the thing about that. Is that everything that would normally make a person feel secure a person who is afflicted with read. It makes them very very insecure. Well completely backwards. Interesting i gotta read on that now. I have a car. Yes in five here in there way to deal with it There was a in my family. There was a potential adoption with an undiagnosed red. And then once it was diagnosis. Like oh my god no. It's yeah is so bad more symbolism from his early life during the war and maybe y- that yeah when he yeah when he was ten and he said to spend all that time alone. Dad goes away. His mom goes away. He's left all alone not just abandonment but really the inability to lasting attachments and plus the fact that his mom was a fruit loops and treated him badly on top. You know oh yeah get. It gave him just a pathological hatred of her in so many ways but yeah apparently when he was in ghana his Predatory sexual habits were pretty much Under control it's like often are. I would've guessed the opposite that being away from home and family would've given him an excuse to really start exploring the dark corners of his personality. And that's very true. I had in mind. There was when we talked about arm mavis on the last show and he was in the army and throughout that his predatory sexual habits as well basically went away. Patty wants a clarification about him. He divorced. He divorced his wife but stayed with her. He divorced his wife in twenty twelve while you but he was imprisoned though at the time right yes yes. Yep we'll be getting to that when we get a little bit deeper into this story Yeah he divorced her in twenty twelve but When i got back is urges came back and they escalated for the first time. This is in roughly nineteen sixty seven. He followed some other home from the grocery store. Raped her at knifepoint in her bed while her infants slept on a cot next to it in the wanna guess what. His sentence was for nothing eighteen months in prison. Wow yeah it's sad and weird. You know what it gets even sadder weird or with this because austria had a law that said after ten years we totally expunged records. Basically any bill matter what you did even sex offenders. They would do this while yup ten years. Yeah after roughly ten years He gets at southern lights sentence. And then that on top of it And it was this case the fritz low case when they finally found elizabeth in the natasha cam push kits which happened in two thousand eight which was another girl in an austrian dungeon for about eight years under house and they You know being a sex slave for some guy. They found her in. It was her case in elizabeth's case that finally caused the austrians to say we gotta get rid of this bone headed law. Yeah because because the police go do an investigation and they pull up the look in their files ago. Nothing here you must. You must be a fine citizen. Yeah absolutely that's what they did in. They didn't have the data so much on sex offenders back then but they do now. We know them. Most of them are essentially incapable of rehabilitation. Yeah especially when they are violent like this so yeah they change that in two thousand and eight but going back to where we were in the story. By the time it's one hundred seventy two. The frills had their seventh in their last child. For the final tally of three girls and four boys and during this time as well is reputation as an engineer is gaining more clout and he's also gaining much much more independent wealth. Okay so do so. he's he's a capable earner then that's a that's a real break from the pattern of what we've been seeing but then again not a serial killer. Yeah he's not a serial killer but he does share some traits or habits with the likes of say bt k. Right what he would call that in. The latter's are in the letter that i had exchanged for him. He called it compartmentalization where he could kill and still be a pillar of the community. Basically seen as the community and ian brady oddly enough. Who also talk about called this. A house divided in an interview with the shrink inbreeding. When the moors murders right. Yes right and my ryan lee but yet fritz all so he decides to invest in a lot of property around is in germany. Austria and switzerland primarily guest houses restaurants and a four bedroom three storey hotel on a lake there And he turned a profit on all this for quite a while but when things started to go south with specifically the hotel it caught fire oops accident authorities could never prove it was insurance fraud with artists in this hotel Excuse me the guest. Houses would be making news again in two thousand seventeen win. The new owner of one of them found way he called a quote staircase to nowhere in various hidden rooms in the structure in twenty fifteen that ruining seventeen just a couple of years ago. Wow yeah and around. that time. There was a murder in a nut. Around the time that fritz all would have had the place there was a murder of a seventeen year old named martina p that solve the authorities would release as far as info k. And as far as i can tell there's nothing definitive linking fritz soul to this crime but they just found it very interesting that these two things occurred together in time right But yeah your body was found in eighty six wrapped in plastic and dumped on the beach at nearby lake say And the other interesting thing was. She looked astonishingly. Like elizabeth fritz. All oh yeah which. I think we have a picture. Yeah we hit a picture there. Yeah the it comes around pretty quick h twelve. Yeah and then the other one that i think we had in there was the one of her with her red hair to right which which is an older picture ever but yet i don't i honestly don't think you're going to hear much more about that case. Short of a deathbed confession from the man himself from joe himself. And that's very unlikely. It sounds like yeah. I would think so too definitely since. He wasn't convicted of murder right. No no why. Open that can of worms. Yeah yeah and like. I said to me. It seemed the only evidence they really tied. It together was happening the same time. Yeah in as you know very well and as others now. Horton correlation does not necessarily legal Yeah coincidences actually do happen. Yeah yes they do but it was six years later after nine hundred. Seventy two thousand nine hundred. Seventy eight starts a massive expansion. Two four div stresa which has been in his family of very long time by now In his big part of that expansion was a gigantic basically labyrinthine seller under the outside rear the house and then on top of that what he did was he built several flats that were to be rented out. You know for another cash flow. I would assume but these flaps they hit a very very high turnover rate in two for people main year which. I'm not totally sure. Why maybe it was just the price of added because it doesn't forty eib strauss. It doesn't seem to me like it's a it's a area that is prone to like high crime if you look at some videos around it so but yeah Very high turnover rate in them which in turn also contributed to the unquestioning demeanor of the folks in there if they would have heard anything front. Elizabeth enter kids being shackled below them. Good you know what if you had no reason to suspect that shit was going on and you started hearing sounds emanating from who knows where when whole you thought. The place haunted some people. Yeah definitely i doubt. Sex slave would be many people's first thoughts right even if you think you know the extent of the building and not in any of those places. Oh absolutely We've got a number of pitchers of this structure. We do down there in the cellar and this is after. Fritz will start at stocking at which will get to as well but it was around the time of the construction that was happening that fritz will begin showing very sexually obsessive tendencies around his then twelve year old daughter. He demanded to know where she was at all times. You often spied on her. And these behaviors would ultimately escalate to doing things like leaving porno marriage under her pillow. This is so backwards from most you know pedophile Incest perpetrators were they start young and then tire of them as they get older. It really is. It's a very interesting case from that view but in one thousand nine hundred eighty one so about three years later. Elizabeth starts a guest strana me and tourism core steady as far enough out of town to take her away from the me debt as i said i suspect she loathed most in the world at this time but Yeah at the same time. She begun waiting tables to support herself in. This'll got under fritz skin and added fuel to the as you can imagine right was also kind of the straw that broke the camel's back and he started escalating even more during this time when she was at home by doing things like exposing himself to her and leaving the porn where it was and just sexual abuse all around even more In her friends at this time at school reported a very introverted girl who they knew it likes school better than her home life but none of them really inquired as to why so right. Yeah but in eighty three Fritz finished his cellar and his his us that he told people who were enquiring was to be storage and as a workshop down there. I think we have even a map of the seller. Don't we it's coming up now. Perfect and you know again. This isn't something that people would question being. Diy and being done by an engineer. You know yeah except an underground workshop is kind of well. I guess maybe for a german wouldn't be all that crazy. germans bill. A lotta underground workshops in world war two. Well that's true in even my late. Grandfather who died of alzheimer's disease and twenty eighteen. His workshop was in his basement. So there's that well it's one thing to use a basement as a workshop. It's another thing to build a basement. Four a workshop is he just sees one room in that right a lot of tools in it yeah in eighty three finishes it and it was january twenty eighth of nineteen eighty-three that elizabeth ran away to vienna. And i'm still being technically a minor under the law. The police picked her up and they held her until fraser. Frit soul made the drive there to get her man. Yeah in on the drive back. He ominously says tour quote. I'll never let you run away again and fast for ahead and this is true. So many of the situations that we've talked about is from her perspective. You know once she already know she doesn't like this guy but you just can't imagine where it's gonna go exactly. I can't imagine the brutality. He had in mind right but Yeah in may eighty four may of the next year elizabeth the mistake of telling her father. She was moving to lince to live with her sister. I would suspect that this really percolated in his mind. You know the way that it did last time and he wouldn't let it happen again he couldn't let it happen again. It i suspect this also kind of relates back to that being left alone by a woman that he had his sights on you know just like with his mom and in fact fritz later on after he was caught would admit to a psychiatrist friends psychiatrist that he often fantasized about sexual intercourse and on the nation with his mother. Oh yeah so. This is very very edible. But what about the other sisters. That's always a great question. Why did they pick the ones that they do. Yeah and why does sort of thing goes on. Why did the it's almost like there was some triggering event right That started him obsessing over the youngest daughter that wasn't evident or present when the older girls were growing up. Oh absolutely very well definitely was are there was just some sort of feature that he saw and heard that earned this obsession on him. Whatever it was. I have a suspicion. And i'd like to come back to it. Sure absolutely but yeah in the article that we posted the link for. Well actually actually we can. I can. I can bring it up now. Because it's been evident already. She wanted to leave. Yeah oh absolutely. That could have been enough just her triggering event. Well yeah but. I mean her but she had that kind of spirit right that independence to get away. Maybe the other girls were just more outwardly. Anyway compliance conforming but this one this one was feistier. And i think it's evident right. Oh yes and that is actually going to get us back at the end of this whole thing to a actually a somewhat good ending for this story which will we. Don't get to tell those kinds of stories often. No we don't but Yeah we put some sort of sources inside that article too that had to deal with it but fast forwarding august twenty eight one thousand nine hundred eighty four. What fritz will puts his plan into motion colleen elizabeth to the garage with the seemingly innocuous for quest of helping them lift the door and after this is done he says to her. Can you join me my study for a private talk. Not sure why she did but not blaming the victim but just not sure why she would have done that so she does that and win. Her back is turned. Well it's i can totally understand that if he's volatile the ease versa. Yeah the easiest thing is to comply just to make sure that you know trying to keep him from blowing up right. This is true. Yeah that's definitely true. But yet when she turns her back to him in its study he has a ether. Soaked rag breading knocks her out Carries her to the seller handcuffing her chain nina to a ring in the floor. Now this is in his the the main house right yet. Well just outside just outside it in the bag and the only things that are down there when he does this in nineteen eighty-four is just a bed toilet in tv. That's in the other thing with that. Which will get back to is the deficit of light which i found particularly sadistic but that is awful. After he trapped her he made her write a letter to the family. saint she ran away in joined. What would later be labeled in the press as a satanic call and then he and then he literally drove one hundred miles away to post that letter. See i was wondering how he would explain it to the family. Well versed that it but it does get weirder how he explains this stuff but during her time down there Wanna take a guess at. How many estimated time she was raped over twenty four years. Jesus three thousand three thousand times for twenty four years and that seller in over that frequency of quite as happening it's going to be basically impossible to avoid pregnancy right right. I one down. There was a miscarriage her. I live births within one thousand nine hundred ninety eight. A girl named kirsch then from there on out when the births occurred. Fritz lang gave her a book on childbirth. A. rag a pair of scissors and a few wet wipes and basically said do it yourself. Holy jesus yeah. Yeah in. That place devoid of any natural light. Wow just it's horrible. But elizabeth second child stefan is born in one thousand nine hundred ninety. So what happens to the baby's. Well he lets them live but where it sold for the most in the basement in the cellar and nobody these babies cryan. Nobody apparently did. Wow are nobody acted upon it but he stuff on is born in nineteen ninety he would go on to have excruciating back pain through the rest of his life because he was about five eight and had to always lean living down there. Oh man shell so very tall ceilings. Not really at law august ninety to her third child. Lisa is born in as heart defect but fritz sel. He doesn't want to take the gamble of his upstairs. Family hearing constantly crying baby because she's always in pain us far like we were saying she isn't noticed thing right. So what's he do. He puts lisa in a basket and literally leaves her on the doorstep of forty strata of his own house with another note from elizabeth man in white gets me about this. If you look at videos again of forty eve strauss in that area of amstetten It's a busy it's bustling. it's a main thoroughfare through that town. I would think somebody would have had to have seen something. Yeah well they're saying and then there's knowing what you're saying i mean honestly if you don't know two suspects something's amiss you could see quite a bit and not know it. Yeah i mean. God bundy it like cement part asking women to help him take his fucking sailboat. You know put it up on his car. He was he was asking people all over. And i'll lots of people thought they didn't know what they were saying very true. Yeah i didn't think about the confusion with something like that. In which case it just gets buried but Apparently guide emergency surgery and by all accounts lived a somewhat normal life with her grandparents. Sin her father being pa- father. I don't know what you would call bad. Meanwhile while all this is we non the downstairs. The sellers getting even more cramped. So what's salihu. He opens up more space down there and he brings in things like a refrigerator which he does his best to keep stocked toys. The children were would like and they even had a pet goldfish and a canary in that space that they could not leave. I all right. So here's the thing. That's a shitload of activity going on. Their stuff has to go in stuff has to come out. How's the wife not notice any fucking thing. That is a fantastic question. It's essentially unanswered and it's also one that elizabeth has been asking to this day. Did my mother. now. I mean there's there's there's deliberate ignorance but this is ridiculous i mean. Yeah bring a fucking parakeet into the house. Nobody knows it. Yeah you know looking at the dynamic inference roche rates and the garbage. This is true. I mean remember. It was technically outside in the back under his flats. Maybe that was part of it where they weren't looking so much bad least. There's only one staircase into this basement. Area yeah so everything goes in and out from that one staircase so yeah. that's bullshit. Somebody had to see year. Oh yeah absolutely. And not to mention that. The sea leans in some of those spaces are even lower than what we were talking about with. Two five eight stefan while eight. Basically a crawlspace through certain parts of that seller. And did he dig all this himself. He built the fan definitely a lot of work for an old man. It is and it also begs the question of did he know what he was gonna do with his daughter when he started building. That was it premeditated in short. Yeah Good chance. That i would say that. He was at least considering this plan when he built it. Maybe he didn't know if he'd go through with it but he was certainly thinking about it. Oh absolutely yeah. I agree too but But i knew that was going on with all that like we were saying. It was sort of normalizing the space in his own. Warped mind in during this time. Elizabeth attempts her own normalcy for her kids. She gets them up at the same time every day. She cooks them breakfast in the tiny kitchen and she even teaches them as again in that space. Yeah in all of this. While her dad is still abusing and raping her presumably in front of them but december sixteenth nineteen ninety four sees the arrival of another child. Monica and she's taken in She's taken upstairs in the same fashion as the other one that we mentioned well so you got a second found playing at forty eib strauss point and another thing. That should be stressed here. Throughout all of this with the two different found links. And there's actually going to be a couple more. Fritz getting financial assistance from the austrian state to do what he was doing just like any other citizen. He was getting financial assistance from their government. Yeah oh yeah to take care of. His bastard isn't even the right word for it. I don't even know what you call that. His is illegitimate in anyway. Yeah children that he that he created through with his daughter and they're paying for it. Yeah in the biggest reason there is that because of that fuck had law that says that his sex crime conviction was expunged. They never probe deeper at the situation. They just assumed oh. She's ran away to call and gave him money. Basically but in april of ninety six elizabeth gives birth again. This time to twins. Michael and alexander and michael has horribly are horrible breathing problems. So what does. Fritz will do allows the infant to die and furrows the body in the furnace of deep struts. Yeah in alexander is taken upstairs. And he's made to be third foundling on the steps of forty stresa so now lissouba's by herself again. Well no she still has the other kids down there. Okay i care. Ston stefan and the Yeah it still i. It's cramp down there in ram. this time. he's fritz. Starts going on a lot of business trips for weeks at a time. Yeah and he would leave plenty of food water and vitamin supplements for what he was calling his downstairs family. Jeez yes and in two thousand. Two elizabeth gives birth to her seventh and last child by her father. A boy named felix. What's interesting there number. Seven effectively makes his downstairs family mirror of his upstairs family. so yeah. It's almost as if the upstairs family who were properly integrated into their community just weren't enough and only sort of stirred something in fritz all much like how he stirred his mother's anger he was by most accounts outside the family. Is'strict angry men like we were talking about india. I would argue the unconscious way that he sought remedy that was to have his second family downstairs in control. Exactly how he believes. All women should be troll right but we get. We finally get in this saga to a plan to ended the hell happened and was very fond of young felix right so he wanted to get him upstairs and basically integrate if he can so to do that he begins planning to release elizabeth in two thousand eight and that is that date was chosen because they would be about the time that felix. We need to start grammar school And he also believed at this time that the gas lighting that he did on elizabeth's throughout the twenty four years was effective enough to where she wouldn't tell the cops like tell her there were subterranean gas traps electrified. Doors and the light where his big things to her. And as since it happened with that murphy intervenes right. Murphy's law before fritz all can put his plan in motion nineteen year old. She's nineteen by now. Kirsten becomes deathly ill. And almost coma toads in that seller in all they had to treat her symptoms in their profuse sledding unusually white skin of course and all the symptoms of renal failure all had to treat it was asper a cut it. Yeah so elizabeth. She begs her father to get medical help for her daughter and a she is steadfast throughout that. She refused to go on herself. She basically said. I'm going to commit suicide if you don't do it. So what's still do. He takes kirsten to the hospital doctors. Meanwhile when they look at her are very very confounded by what's happening her constellation of symptoms and They actually turned out to never having been in the sunlight ever yes vitamin severe vitamin d deficiency despite the lamps that fritz had also installed down there and also the supplements that he gave them Let's see kirsten. It lost most of her teeth. And by that time he had developed a habit of tearing her hair out in clumps and shredding her dresses and stuffing them down the toilet in the cellar really. Yeah which. I can't blame her at all in that environment but fritz when he's in the hospital he introduces himself as her grandfather and the doctors he asking him to get the mother in there that we can take an even more thorough medical history and get a handle on what's happening and save her so the police. They searched for and after about a week. They put out a televised appeal for elizabeth to come home and they're playing when she got there was to charger with severe neglect. But elizabeth ends up seen that appeal under tiny. Tv in the cellar so yeah so when her dad came back she said to him. You're gonna take me in there or i will kill myself now. Fritz will he acquiesces to so upon getting there The police immediately arrests can begin interrogating elizabeth and it's only when they threatened to take the children that were still in the cellar from her that she finally tells them what joseph fritz all at done to her for twenty four years and they immediately arrested and free the other children in the cellar. So we get to that point. He initially pleads not guilty in an australian court to the charges including rape false imprisonment and deprivation of liberty in elizabeth and her children. Meanwhile they start as you can imagine intense therapy in exclamation the outside world. Can you imagine how would an ordeal that is. Oh yeah i mean. Gmac to seeing what a street looks like. For god's sakes yeah just seeing the moon. Yeah we'll get back to that. Actually the moon in particular but elizabeth sheep preps a tape deposition editor. Dad's trial where no press and members of the public are allowed in but as the final surprise. He shows up in person and confronts him the trial. Yeah yeah pretty cool on her part there. So she's she's kind of feisty and she yeah he's a tough cookie man that's awesome in even the devil himself couldn't break her but when fritz will saw elizabeth he's supposedly changes pleaded guilty and wept uncontrollably. But i think that was just emperor airy but being in austria. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with parole possible. After fifteen years which is like the harshest sentence they give him main getting into the afterthoughts. The postscript here. he's still alive as of win. I did this research and elected denotes. He's reportedly suffering from dementia though in the prison and elizabeth's. Oh yeah yeah. But elizabeth and the children are still also undergoing therapy. It reportedly suffering intense anxiety and panic attacks from door closing or the turning of lock. sure Yeah and not to mention what we were talking about with the elizabeth's profound ambivalence toward her mother they live in a location designated by austrian says quote village ex so they can live a normal life support by the austrian state and with a good degree of privacy so they have like their own little compound. Essential kind like yeah basically. They don't want to give away where she's at and i can stand that but reportedly she's also found love in the bodyguard. Who was hired to protect her. Oh yeah say good for her on that definitely eh and yet the interest with that moon thing we were talking about. That was one of the first things that happened when felix got out of the cellar. Yeah they were driving in the moonlight in amstetten in. He just pressed his head did the window and wouldn't let up you know because he had seen it before is only seen it on tv in. Yeah in kirsten. She got out of her coma and they got out of the the vitamin d deficiency in the first words that she said upon waking up a new life is starting for all of us. Let us be happy. Wow yeah jesus. Quite a few psychologists who have looked at. This said that they thought that elizabeth wouldn't have survived. If it wasn't for kids who were with her down there. Well i kind of disagree with that. In to the extent that sh- she's a fighter. Yeah she definitely is. There's no doubt whatsoever about that. Yeah in a fighter the kids. I'm sure helped a lot. But i i suspect that she would have remained a fighter even on her own would have been. I think much much harder though. All you know sure. Sure by definitely yeah yeah. She's amazing in my opinion gotten through that the way she did and still deliver that final. Fuck you to her father. Office this tour absolutely. That's that's astonishing. This is one of the happiest ending stories. We've ever done. We don't often get to cover something that ends so well. Yeah yeah we don't at unfortunately won't be the way next week. I'm not sure more of them but this this was good. Yes you know that that fighting spirit you do. You know there's a opposite Post traumatic stress right really. What's that called. It's called post traumatic growth really. Yeah it's a real thing and in fact it's very you know because i was thinking about a one day when i was talking to my my doc and i said you know so this post traumatic stress. Not everybody gets that so they must be an opposite to that this is true. It's definitely logical. I just never heard of it before it. Get much discussion because it's not much of a problem. This is true. This is true but the military is definitely interested in how people who experienced post traumatic growth How they do that and they will yes. They can teach it. Yeah yeah absolutely an apply. Some of the lessons to people with ptsd. Yeah before they go in situations absolately but how that comes to mind because this sounds like know very much like a case where she very likely has post traumatic growth versus. Ptsd because she you know that ability to go into that courtroom and face him down Oh absolutely but yeah. I wish we had more of those two. I really do. Yeah i will do my best to look for them. Listen it's a it's a wonderful change of pace absolutely so yeah. If we can get can't more of those yes satellite leave. Sick fuckers are just you know to effective in what they do most. Yeah unfortunately yeah. Rotten hill josette fritz. Oh yeah this guy. This guy was. This guy was brutal. Yeah in a non murderous way for the parts prising. He didn't get any Manslaughter type charges for the kids. That died yeah. Yeah you would think so. Definitely he's one of them. Who's further up in dr stone. Dr michael stones scale of evil that we often about the for insect shrink. I wanna save frizzell. Something like twenty out of twenty two that he hid okay in there which is inordinately high. To give a little bit of perspective there charles. Manson is only like a seventeen on it also. Wow yeah yep is another one of the sources i put in the medium right up by i did. Yeah by the way. Thank you for those of you are listening now. And in the future check link in the description for the Article that west road up related to the subject matter absolutely essentially show notes. Condensed into something. That is different. I guess she kids say something. That's readable yeah. Yeah definitely and we'll be. I'm going to do my best to get one of those out every week before our show as an awesome job. Thank you all right now. The wind baiju dust. Yeah not playing that song. We do not have to play that song. No good night everybody goodnight.

fritz austria amstetten maria elizabeth germany Joseph Fritz joseph fritz miller kellyanne maria fritz whiteson miller ghana fred sel fritzy joseph fritzo gusset fritz frit sabine fritz soul fritzell
On the Edge of a Moral Volcano

My Gothic Dissertation

53:11 min | 9 months ago

On the Edge of a Moral Volcano

"Welcome back to my Gothic dissertation. Up, until now, we've journeyed through the grass Google thick from the perspective of the innocent downtrodden protagonists. We've seen our heroes trapped in invalidating cycles of approval seeking and self doubt. Stuck behind lift masters who stifled their curiosity and threatened to extinguish their imaginations. And rendered voiceless by the fear of facing disapproval and rejection. Today we're going to flip the script. No longer promoting the abuses of terrifying teachers. We're taking a look at the way. Students can be monstrous professor faith in my opinion is one of the worst professors I've had since being at Iowa. If you've ever seen ABC's late night show Jimmy Kimmel live you're probably familiar with the segment celebrities read mean tweets. It's a recurring bit where guests on the show take a moment to read aloud some of the nasty things people have said about them on twitter can tweet even be mean. Your face is so stupid I. Hate You John Ski. This is of course, Jon Krizan Sqi, who then peers off into the distance bottom lip protruding before gazing straight into the camera as if to say what did I do to deserve this? Of course, it's a staged reaction and one men to underscore the absurdity of the baseless vitriol we've come to expect from Internet trolls. But still it reminds me a little of what it feels like to be a college teacher doing what for many is one of the most dreaded parts of their job. Reading student evaluations. At the end of the semester you should choose a single teaching style stick to. Of course, not all evaluations are meeting but the ones that are can really sting I feel that if Carl has the ability to grant my work, he should also have the ability to teach me how to do my work better Carl failed to teach me anything slightly helpful. So not only was this class oasis of money, but a waste of time. Student evaluations have been a common practice in college classrooms for almost a century now. And they do have some benefits in theory. Professors can learn what works for student learning and what doesn't students can hold apathetic or abusive teachers accountable. Departments and administrations can have a record of how their faculty is perceived by students. But often as the case was celebrity twitter pages, they came become a place for people to vent their anger at someone. Only with teaching evaluations, it's a lot more personal because the anger comes from actual real life interactions with a person who for three months has usually tried their best to do their job. I'm reading this mid semester because he is such a bad professors almost upset if someone's not tie the history of food with wounding oftentimes it seemed as if Carl was. By. Even the simplest of questions terrible the some graduate student gets to ruin my future. Assignments were pointless. Highly suggest choosing someone else if at all possible. The way I see it Jimmy Kimmel's bit is commentary on America's paradoxical obsession with and disdain for celebrities. When we see them read these inordinately mean messages we're supposed to recognize both our sense of entitlement to the intimate details of these people's lives. And are perceived right to distantly dehumanizing Lee. attack. Them. But because tweeting nasty things to celebrities is so absurd it's easy to laugh at. And Laugh off. But that's not always the case for means student evils. Loud It just makes your gut. Twist, it's like this is actually a real observation. that. I can't contest with. That's not a subjective thing. I did do that and I Am sorry that like I failed in that moment teaching is an incredibly vulnerable act. They usually mean standing in front of a room with twenty to thirty sets of eyes watching your every move forty to sixty years hanging onto your every word. That is if you're lucky enough to hold your students attention, the difficulty of which is abundantly clear to the teacher facing a sea of blank faces. When you're failing teaching you know it. So, hearing your students enumerate your failings back to you and excruciating detail is painful. Here's the Romanticism for my own committee talking about this kind of evaluation which she says she dreads the most. It's not so much that they are really mean I think some people really have number. They do notice the things that you know are not very strong you're teaching so. Like I haven't anxiety about mastery. I don't get that kind of commentary often, but comments that just I like the are more at that sort of. Make me feel that excited about sort of like not really be prepared enough to teach class. There's been a lot said about how problematic teaching evaluations are. How they often discriminate against instructors for marginalized groups, how they position students has consumers and teachers as commodities heather not even all that good at measuring what they're supposed to measure, which is teaching effectiveness. It's well covered territory. So I'm not going to go there right now. My point is simply to show some empathy because I've had my fair share of meaning vows to. In, all your case. Very Boring class. And after identifying with the perspective of the critical student for the past five episodes, one might even say writing one giant mean email of PhD training as a whole. I just want to acknowledge that college professors are often doing their best to, and they can be on the receiving end of much undeserved abuse. Having a record of your own shortcomings when you're already vulnerable position is something that also happens to Lucy snow. The protagonist of the next gothic novel will examine Charlotte as of alleged. We'll get into an overview of the novel later but for now, I wanNA focus in on one particular scene in which Lucy Snow receives her own mean evil. It happens only weeks after she's begun teaching. English. At the Co Nada de Moselle a private school for french-speaking girls in the heart of the let. A fictionalized version of Brussels. Loss. Deepened thought as she paces. La. Day fondue an isolated corner of the schools garden, which is one of her favourite haunts. Lucius suddenly jolted from her loneliness by a box drops in her feet from the window above. Thinking it's for hers. She opens it finding a bouquet of violets and a letter. But when she begins to read the letter. She realizes it's not for her in fact, it's talking about her in pretty unflattering terms. I the mysterious writer. Thanks the intended recipient for keeping a recently as on with him. Liaison to Lucy herself apparently posed obstruction. Here's Lucy. As the narrator reading the contents of the letter, you seem to think the enterprise beset with such danger the so on timely the alley. So strictly secluded often you said haunted by that Dragon, the English teacher that dragon the English teacher being of course, Lucy herself. The writer then goes onto describe her as very tablet, big girl Brita Nick sick of. Especially Demonstra blue-sky lewd common. View caporale decline DA. A revenge coming years. The reader will excuse my modesty and allowing this flattering schedule my aviable self to retain the slight veil of the original tongue. The editors of the Modern Library edition are less modest apparently the author of the Letter Calls Lucy. Veritable British prude a type of Monster Brusque and rude like an old grenadier corporal and surly can none. But remember he's only repeating what is unnamed beloved a student at the school I said to him. What Lucy stumbles upon then is essentially Amini Val albeit one filtered through the pen of her students secret suitor. And although she describes it with sarcasm calling it a flattering sketch of her amiable self. Her reluctance to translate it. Even many years later as she narrates the novel. Suggests that it did sting. And as I mentioned earlier, she's already in a vulnerable position when she reads it. The entire novel of Ilet in fact can be read as a study of its heroines vulnerability. Her susceptibility to danger or injury. which makes it fit easily into the female. Gothic. Tradition. When the novel Opens Adolescent Lucie is staying with her godmother Mrs Louisa Breton because there seems to be some undisclosed distress in her own home. Sure. Enough after Lucie returns to her family. She undergoes eight trouble years that the narration skips over entirely. Picking Up with a now orphaned Lucy in her late teens hinting only cryptically at the trauma she experienced. Under the sway of some Unknown Force Lucy, compels herself first to London then across the Atlantic to Villette. where she serendipitous leave finds employment as a nursery made for madame back. The proprietor of the Pence Yona. The rest of the novel details Lucy's internal struggle or one might say Educational Journey To reconcile her fierce proud independence and her intense longing for intimate connection. A connection she finally finds with the charismatic but fiery Professor Measure Paula Manual. Only to realize later that self interested Authority figures in his life were attempting to wrench them apart all along. In the end. The self interested agents went out. Mr Paul dies in a shipwreck on his way back from a trans-atlantic errand he conducted for them. And Lucy lives the rest of her life alone. Teaching in the school he had purchased for her before leaving. In this novel, the interfering taskmasters come mostly in the form of educational figures because in Villette, we see the educational themes that Sherry traffic writes about in the schoolhouse, Gothic rise to the surface of female gothic texts for the first time. For one thing. The let takes place almost entirely in a school. The aforementioned PENSA run by. Madame Beck. Critics of widely acknowledged this institution to be a fictionalized version of the Brussels Boarding School Bronte herself attended and eventually taught in like Lucy herself. Between Eighteen, forty, two, and eighteen, forty four. So, while at leans much more toward realism than Utah Faux or Frankenstein. The let is still heavily informed by the GOTHIC Shandra. For, instance. Brent hey builds a gothic mythology shona. Formerly a convent apparently. It's halls are haunted by the story of a former nun who was murdered there for indiscretions. School legend has it that she's even buried beneath a withered old pear tree in the courtyard. Bronte plays with the reader by having Lucy every now and then spot the ghostly figure of none silently gliding through the dark corner she frequents. Though in the style of Ann Radcliffe, it always turns out that the none is not a supernatural specter and there's indeed a perfectly logical explanation for its presence. Besides the setting and the explained supernatural invalid though. Bronte continues in the vein of Radcliffe, and Shelly by portraying a powerless gothic heroine. Ever subject to the whims of the more authoritative people around her. And, her powerlessness is only exacerbated when she becomes a teacher. I as Lucy tells us. Madam Beck all but forces her to replace her former English professor. She without mortar do made me relinquish thimble in needle. My hand was taken into her isn't was conducted downstairs I was flushed and Tremolos from head to foot. Tell it not in gaffe I believe I was crying Madame Beck's seems almost disgusted by Lucy's reticence. UNMOVED by her legitimate protests that she has only a tenuous grasp of French, which of course is the language she'll need to speak in order to instructor students. And the students themselves as Madame Beck well knows are a difficult group that promised to challenge Lucy's autonomy as well. As the headmistress asserts in the hallway shortly before issuing Lucy through the classroom doors. But let me tell you these all not quiet decorated. English girls you're going to encounter. She saw Leyla Scorpion owned fourche brisk a toll swap her bell. That is straightforward. Frank Brisk and a little rebellious. They always throw a timid teachers in this text which sympathizes with the perspective of the teacher. The students are villains. My heart rate is escalating because we're getting close to. The classroom where my students abused me last. Wednesday. This is Lulu. A first year Grad student an Iowa's nonfiction writing program. One. Saturday. When the English philosophy building was unoccupied except for a few timid high schoolers participating in a debate competition, we paid a visit to the room where she teaches rhetoric two days a week. I'm glad I'm actually glad to be back here right now because it's preparing me to come back on Monday and face. These students. It's a course. The Grad students often teach to earn their tuition stipend and that Undergrad students are required to take off in kicking and screaming to earn General Education Credit. So I started teaching in this room I think on. January twenty third. Or fourth today is March third. Lulu like Lucy Snow is new to teaching. She's only just out of college herself and like the Duma Zell at Madame Beck's punts Yona the students in this particular class have been. Difficult. Yeah. Wednesday was. Horrific. So they are working on speeches right now. And Wednesday was our speech workshop. Day. So they all had to come in with a hard copy of a draft of their speech. So they could pair up and share those speeches with a partner. And From the beginning this was destined to fail because despite giving them guided in class writing time on Monday. Half of them did not come with speech draft Lulu was at a loss. She says her entire lesson plan depended on students having done what she had assigned for. Homework. And when Lulu pointed out that they hadn't done what she asked things got worse then. began. Like. Not. Quite. But Almost, yelling that I had definitely told them not to bring a hard copy. and. That I had tricked them and. They don't. They didn't understand why I hadn't told them to bring a hard copy meanwhile I have. Five or six excellent students who are sitting there with their note cards or they're printed out draft ready to workshop. One student in particularly Liu says started escalating the situation even more than the others she'd been disruptive all semester and by the time Lulu and I spoke about it, she effectively failed the class because of absences. But that day says Lulu she was making her presence very now had like a strange meltdown and. was very hostile and disrespectful and she. Wouldn't exchange her speech draft would an acknowledgement speaking to her? was distracting students and other groups and then everything broke down completely. This wasn't the only difficult person in the room though. Unlike Lucy Snow Lulus class was almost entirely men and men only two to three years younger than she was at the time Yeah. So I also had a student of near the beginning. Take a picture of me during the class and the flash went off. I feel like being young and female and teaching students that aren't much younger than me. Especially, in a class of mostly male students like this one I run the risk if I try enforcing any of discipline of like completely losing respect if my. If putting my foot down doesn't work for whatever reason as it turns out, there's a scholarly term for what Lulu had been experiencing. Academic incivility. So active incivility is any action that is whether it's taken by students or faculty that is disruptive and interferes with the learning environment and the learning community Essentially, it refers to behaviors that violate the mutual respect between students and faculty. This is kristen net a clinical psychologist and former resident at the Association of College and University. Educators. Kristen earned her PhD in psychology from Virginia Tech where she conducted research and published an article on academic civility. It's a concept she came to through her experience teaching a weekly recitation session of a large intro Psych lecture Broadway about thirty to forty students instead of five hundred. So when I was a graduate student and I was teaching I, did encounter incivility from my undergraduate students you know and I did have kind of the two strikes against me. That we talked about before I was young female and I think that I took that choice to delve into the research because it was validating it was kind of like, okay academic instability. This thing it's real in exists it's not just me and it just gave me the sense of validation. So it made me feel like I wasn't alone kristen and the other researchers around the world who study academic incivility generally concur that it comes in some common forms. Things sound a lot like what Lulu experienced sleeping in class or disapproving groans or size during the lecture acting board or disinterested in the lecturer Perhaps, not even attending class is another one that has seen a lot especially in courses that are required or general education requirements. any challenges to the instructor's knowledge credibility. Might. Be perceived as an uncivil behavior and even dominating class discussion. Kristen rightly points out that to an extent. incivility is in the eye of the beholder. Some instructors may hardly notice these things but for others, it can be highly upsetting. But some of the more severe forms of incivility would seem harder to ignore these stocking with in person or electronially intimidation complaints to a professor supervisors like the Department Chair or the Dean that are unjustified or perhaps unwarranted negative feedback on an instructor teaching valuation at the end of the term and just like in the research student evaluations. It turns out women and people of color or more likely to experience civility from their students. One potential reason for this kristen says, is something called the professorial stereotype Which is eaten modern day college students seem to have the stereotype in their heads of what a college professor quote unquote should look like, and typically they envision a more mature older white male with the deep boys in a commanding presence in the classroom, and when they don't encounter that in their own courses they may be more likely to turn behavior outward and perhaps acting uncivil manner. So these students are looking for weakness in US Grad students when we get up in front of them, not every group but. Definitely this group. Back to Lucy snow. Still standing outside the door of the classroom madame back presents a challenge to her young employees don't Roussin Daewoo Aleman profile do you really think you're that week? Lucy feel something shift within her and she's overcome by that fierce pride I mentioned earlier on have. Oh. Let's go. Madam Beck proceeds to March through a stern catechism rallying her new soldier for like a general. Are you too over excited to teach she asks. I. I am no more excited than the stone. Lucy says tapping her toe on the flag behind her feet. Others haven't made. It says Madam back these girls are harsh. Lucy replies to each new point determination until finally, Madam back issues her final caution, you is not expect aid for Mia from anyone that would advance set you down as incompetent for your office to which lizzy responds by silently opening the classroom door issuing the headmistress in ahead of her and then taking her place at the front of the room. As Madame Beck introduces her as the new teacher Lucy surveys the class. She knows that they seem quote turbulent, unmanageable, robust, riotous, and demonstrative. They're not much younger than she is on the whole and several of them were from aristocratic families. As it turns out these bells as she calls them. Give her the most trouble. They knew they had succeeded in expelling obnoxious teaches before now they knew that madame wooded anytime throw overboard a professor or mattress who became unpopular with the school. Looking, at Miss Snow, they promised themselves an easy victory. Leading, the charge Mademoiselle's Blanche Virginia and Angelique start to whisper as Lucy begins giving instruction. Soon. The whispers turn to murmurs then they're laughing out loud. Perhaps the most insecure scenario for any teacher to be in much less one on her first day. It's so hard to have a class and you know they're laughing at you but you don't know why you can't Col- them out for it. For Lucy Snow it becomes a growing revolt of sixty against one. And since her command of French is so limited. There's not much she can do about it. At. least. Not Verbally because here's where things start to take a turn. Up until this point, it's easy to empathize with Lucy's vulnerability as a new teacher. She's already lived a hard enough life. She's lonely. She's far from home. Not. That she hasn't. He loved ones left back in England to make it a home. She's young she's inexperienced and she's surrounded by people who seem to want her to fail. Plus she doesn't even speak the language. When this class inevitably turns against her, we feel for her powerlessness. And as Madame Beck warned her, she can't even ask anyone for help. But the way she reacts to this difficult scenario is less easy to empathize with. The only asset she does have is her superior knowledge of English. The language she's supposed to be teaching to the wild heard. It's a tiny scrap of power and she immediately use it to assert her authority. All I could now do was to walk up to Blache Mademoiselle de Mel c a young baron, the eldest tallest handsome EST and most vicious stand before desk take from her hand excise both remount. The Estrada deliberately read the composition which I found very stupid and as deliberately, and in the face of the whole school tear the blotted page into. She resorts to using humiliation. Or One might say emotional abuse. As a means of behavior, management? And soon. She uses physical abuse as well. Because although humiliating blanche had almost succeeded in entirely checking the mutiny. There was still one persistent student one gal alone quite in the background persevered and the riot with undiminished energy. I noted that she stopped close by a little door which door I was well aware opened into a small closet where books were kept. In an instant and we'd sharpness I had turned on her. In another instance she occupied the closet, the door shut. My pocket. In probably the most famous scene of Villette Lucy forces student into the closet and locks her in front of everyone. After this, she's one the all in respect of the rest of the students but. As Lucy, herself tells us. They still remain unmotivated low achieving learners. SUBURBIA or was meant land location, they could not or would not bear heavy demand on the memory. The reason the attention they rejected point blank. Where an English girl of not more than average capacity in doe silty would quietly take a theme and Ben himself to the task of comprehension and mastery. Alah Bus Korean laugh laughing your face and throat back to you with the phrase. Do say see. Slum we throw God how it's difficult I don't want it. It bores me too much. Lucie believes her students poor learning skills are actually innate a product of their quote, quick French blood and Marsh Phlegm. Rather than a learned response from the educational experiences of their past. At first, she's furious with them though the edge of a moral volcano that rumbled under my feet and since sparks and hot fumes into my eyes, but then she settles into contempt. Adopting a cold sarcastic manner towards her students occasionally mocking them to keep their self esteem low by never knew them rebel against wound given to their self respect The little. They had that quality was trained to be crushed and it rather liked the pressure of a firm he'll than otherwise. Difficult is her situation may be Luciano educates in a way that reinforces dominance as bell hooks would say. In this case she reinforces what she considers to be English. Over the French. In terms of their supposedly inborn work ethic and sense of decorum. Legs Saint Aubert Montani. Alfonse. Frankenstein and measure cramp before her. Lucy snow is a gothic teacher who's pedagogy is informed by our own prejudices. Her own self serving power hierarchy. Lucy snow while in some senses agotic heroin. Simultaneously Gothic Villain. I know that a Lotta professors are uncomfortable with their authority in the classroom they feel uncomfortable grading students and grading as a whole can of worms and I get I'm uncomfortable grading students. This is David Kuebler. Lecturer rhetoric at the University of Iowa and author of the book the missing course everything they never taught you about college teaching is work. He argues that ironically college teachers are never really taught how to teach. And the circumstance sets the conditions for abuses of power. But there is an authority that we have as as instructors as professors and it's imbued by the institution and just by being uncomfortable that we can't ignore it and I think it's on anyone with that authority to use that authority to structure class to as equitable's possible. So I do think that it, it very easily shades from sort of pedagogical choices to really like ethical moral moral choices. This is precisely what I've been arguing all along. That the ways we treat students both inside and outside of the classroom is very much a matter of social justice. Because as professors, we have power over them. Even if it may not always feel that way or even if we're uncomfortable looking at it that way. And this is what I've seen happening in the Gothic to. Student teacher relationships being dramatized in ways that make clear how abusive teachers can be if they're not careful. But the thing that makes villette a bit different from Utah Photo and Frankenstein is that its author? Charlotte Bronte. Doesn't seem to critique Gothic teaching. In many ways she praises it. The most obvious example is the stern shame oriented pedagogy of Lucy's teaching. Idol turned Fiance Minister Paulo Manual. Prove yourself true. Air I. Cherish. You is his ornaments and how difficult he made that proof. The cousin Madame Beck and a well regarded professor at the prestigious Athena both school and Villette. Ms Paul is an imposing figure at the Pasadena. Students Trimble at his approach, which has google are points out. And actually make him a great teacher by modern standards. And the motivation. If they're motivated by grades or motivated by. Fear of embarrassment it's not that's not very strong motivation. The research shows us if they're motivated by intrinsic means because they really Wanna learn that is good. The that is much more factor that is also decidedly not how measure. The most lauded pedagogy villette motivates his students. According to Lucy Snow's observations. It. Seems he wants students to be motivated by a desire for his approval what Sohn's and Briars what Flint's he strewed in the path of feet, not in newer to rough travel. He watched till ously ordeals that he exacted should be pass through fearlessly. He followed footprints that as they approached the born sometimes marked in blood followed them grimly holding your Status Police Watch over the pain pressed Pilgrim Lucy, explains that frazier, Pau. The People's quest to learn is like the pilgrims quest to a holy site. In this case, the realm of knowledge. As pilgrims, his students wished to join some chosen group the learned the saved. And he has the power to grant their salvation. And he's going to make that salvation as difficult to attain as possible. Apparently when at last he allowed arrest before slumber might close the eyelids. He opened those same Lidge wide with pitiless finger and thumb. If last he let the neophytes sleep it was but a moment he woke him suddenly apply new tests. He's on Xm errands. When he was staggering with weariness, he tried the temper, the sense and the health. And it was empty when every severest tested been applied and endured that he admitted it genuine and still clouded silence stamped with his deep brand of approval. One wonders how Bronte came up with this metaphor where did she heard of the practices of sleep deprivation and irksome errands as initiating trials? Although it may seem surprising and completely unrelated. BRONTE's Metaphor Sherpas. Pedagogy bears a striking resemblance to something from our modern context. hazing. Specifically the kind you might find in a college Frat House. And then we rarely think of hazing outside of that context. It could certainly exist in the Grad School Gothic as well. Using is any activity expected of someone on joining Seeking membership in or maintaining once full status as a member in club organization. or team. That humiliates degrades abuses or endangers them. Regardless of a person's willingness to participate, this is Elizabeth Allen Professor of Higher Education at the University of Maine and president and Co founder of the Organization Stop hazing. As, she says here, the first component of hazing involves a person trying to join or maintain membership in a group and needing other members approval to do so. Similar to say trying to earn a degree by passing the examination of a handful of those who already hold it is like we don't want to just let anyone in, they need to prove themselves they need to show they're worthy. There's nothing inherently wrong with having standard says Allen. If a group is founded with a certain mission in mind say to teach others about literature. Then of course, it makes sense that the group of wanting to insurance members fit to carry out that mission it. You know when we say we want to. Shift. Away from hazing culture, we're not saying that people were not expected to work hard and we're not expecting people to prove themselves. Now it's just that we are rethinking how it is. That they demonstrate that and and making sure that the ways in which we expect people demonstrated wall to with vision of what we say we're about. Pardon the Pun for things get hazy says Alan when the group's division and training methods no longer match what? Yes. I would say that would be number one is alignment with the Mission and goals and values of the group in the larger context in which it operates. With an athletic. Shoe obviously expect people have to come to practice. And Nebraska's involves maybe doing pushups. There's the is and same thing with the military, but it wouldn't be okay for. A doctoral student would be expected to do that in order to do their dissertation. Sure. It would seem pretty absurd to ask someone to do push ups to earn their PhD. But at this moment, when the humanities are undergoing kind of identity crisis and the aim of the PhD, no longer really seems to be landing a tenure track job. It's worth examining whether our mission and goals are still aligned as Elizabeth would say. Maybe among other things Proto monograph dissertations are the new push ups. But back to let. Prove yourself true air I cherish you do measure pause training methods match the mission of the school. What is it that the do Moselle are being trained to do at Madame Beck's pence. Lucy snow tells us that the school educates both the young Countess and the young Joie. Though. She never explicitly says for what? If we can take any insight from the punchier nausea life counterpart. The Belgian School Brunton herself then the chief mission of Madame School was to repair its de Moselle to be good wives and mothers. So No. Measure Pause metaphorical thorns and briers wouldn't seem to match that aim. Such methods seem uncalled for and this it would seem that measure pause ruthless teaching as a form of hazing. Nevertheless, and somewhat confusingly. He's adored by the school students. Take, for instance, the literal heap of honor they bestow on him each year for his birthday. At the start of the morning class day parade into the classroom, each girl laying bouquet on his desk until the mound become so high that he disappears behind it engulfed by their adoration. Lucy Snow contrast this with the compulsory and flamboyant celebration for madame back it was anonymous spontaneously awarded not plotted and contrived beforehand and offered an additional proof amongst many others of the estimation in which despite his partialities, prejudices and irritability is the professor of literature was held by his pupils. This might seem to offer evidence that measure Paul's pedagogical ends justify the means. If students love him. He must not be abusing them after. All right. Back to Elizabeth Allen and the definition of hazing and then component, which is important. especially. Because often on that is. An impediment and understanding when something crosses is the line into phasing. Is that can occur regardless of a person's willingness to participate because of the the peer pressure the inherent. Power Dynamics of the group where you have some people who are already members with other people seeking membership and even if people choice of whether or not they want to do, it can be considered. Sometimes it coercive environment. So even if those on the receiving end of hazy training practices participate willingly. Even if they remain loyal to the person or institution performing the punishing initiation rituals. Even if they seem to consent to the abuse, it's still abuse. And when people begin willingly submitting themselves to abuse Allen. Things get pretty convoluted pretty quickly. Often. If a fraternity decides in good faith to shift, it's hazing culture. The next group of recruits will say, but wait a minute. I wanted to be hazed. This may not be what you'd expect but in a way, it makes sense you know because it gave them a feeling of worth and they would be judged at the same level of quality of the other members who came to or them, etc etc. in other words when a system of training is abusive, it has the unexpected side effect of teaching current and future trainees that surviving abuse is the only way to prove your worth I never knew them rebel against a wound given to their self respect. The little they had of that quality was trained to be crushed and it rather liked the pressure of a firm. He'll than otherwise it rather lights the pressure of a firm healed and otherwise. It's a bit like Stockholm Syndrome. Beginning to sympathize? Even fall in love with your tormentors. Sometimes he borrows the lineage of an insane Tomcat. Sometimes those over delirious Hyena. Occasionally but very seldom. He disguised these perilous attractions and assumes an air not above one hundred degrees removed from mild and gentlemen light. This is Charlotte Bronte or a voice actress playing Charlotte Bronte. Describing real life professor Constantin Ajay in a letter to her friend. Ellen Nussey dated may eighteen forty to about three months after she arrived at the? Asia. At twenty six years old Bryant was pursuing a continental education. So she could one day open up our own school for girls in England. In this letter to our friend she I describes the headmistress then moves on to describe someone who to readers of Alette should sound very familiar monsieur Asia the husband of Madam is professor of rhetoric. A man of power as to mind but very choleric and irritable temperament a little black being face that varies an expression. As many Brunton biographers and scholars have pointed out. The measure. Paul of the let seems quite clearly to be modeled on the real life Constantine Ejei. For comparison here's Lucy Snow's description of measure Paul the first time she sees them. A small dark and spam an in spectacles and like Asia's Tomcat or Hyena like temper here's Lucy snow's description of measure. Paul's The scarce suppressed impetus of almost irritable nature glowed in his cheek fed with sharp shafts glances. Nature the injudicious, the mortgage, the hesitating the sullen affected above all the unyielding quickly rent a violent and implacable the way. Lucy. Snow handles measure. Paul's temper also looks a lot like Brown with Asia. It was time to sue him a little if possible. Monsieur said I. I would not insult you for the world I remember too. Well, let you one said we should be friends. I do not intend my voice defaulted. Did I wept aloes Aloe said he presently decidedly I'm a monster under Vian compare this to Charlotte's description of a recent interaction with measure J in a letter to Ellen Nussey very angry with me just at present. Because I have written translation which he chose to stigmatize as. Collect. And he is very ferocious with me I. Cry. That sexual things straight it seems clear that Lucy snow like her creator prefer to harsh pedagogy and seem to have a romantic infatuation with her harsh professor. I liked for instance to see Monsieur Emmanuel Jealous it lit up his nature and woke e- Spirit. It's all sorts of queer lights and shadows over his dumb face and his violet as your is the novelist full of passionate scenes of measure. Paul, yelling at her shaming her to tears. But unlike the typical abuse student. Lucy and Charlotte seem. Less. Than put off by it it is natural to me to submit an very unnatural to command even if they didn't have a seemingly masochistic attraction to their emotionally abusive teachers though. It's still unsurprising that Lucy snow and Charlotte Bronte condone such methods and even become emotionally abusive teachers themselves. In Psychology, the victim to victimize hypothesis is ubiquitous. As already discussed with Victor Frankenstein often the downtrodden student goes on to become the teacher who applies the pressure of a firm. He'll hazer is gonNA Hayes. And lose his comments about crushing her student self respect in order to keep them in line. Illustrates how directly influence she is by her own Heyzer Measure Paul. Constant crusade against the ammo of proper at every human being. But himself was the crotchet of this able. But Fire Ian Grasping little man this term on more proper means personal pride. Or. The Self respect that Lucy also likes to crush in her students. When she has this attitude it's no wonder she received such a scathing evaluation from her student. She really is that dragon the English teacher. As I've been doing all along. Let's have one last show of sympathy for the Dragon. According to the victim victimized hypothesis Lucy doesn't know any better. She's just mindlessly reproducing the abusive teaching practices. She's experienced. And, that she and the entire school seem to be enamored with. It's the same with the Grad. School Gothic. because. Probably because undergraduate education is so it's such a big topic. There's so many more undergrads entered effects more than just speak Adamy we tend to ignore graduate education altogether. Except when people are worrying about there, not being jobs hd's right that's only got stopped about. But how graduate students are educated? Just isn't talked about and and it shows that it's not talked about because it's not. Much different than it was twenty years ago, fifty years who I would. One reason for the sustained unexamined graduate pedagogy. Like Elizabeth, Allen said he like we don't WanNa just let anyone. They need to prove themselves they need to show. They're worthy the idea that because these are the highest degrees awarded by the academy. They need to be rigorous. They need to prove that someone is worthy of being a doctor or an expert at something. And it's true. These degrees do need to be rigorous, but still as Kuebler says the idea that abusive or neglectful. PSG advisors is about rigor strikes me as a post hoc rationalization, right? It's this is the way it's always been done. Let me figure out how to justify how it's been done. But if we think of Peachy advising as teaching. Then we need to think of what, what are our goals one of the best ways to get there and I think once we think about our goals which is. At the very least is to make future academics Then it becomes obvious really really quickly that The way we do it now is not the best way to do. Training future academics it does need to be rigorous people need to identify pressing theoretical and practical lines of inquiry and their chosen fields. And try to figure out ways to contribute. But training them to do that by having them write a two hundred page document that must meet the approval of mainly one monolithic authority figure. is probably not as Google are says the best way to do it Yeah, and I think it would be good for. Any graduate program it's interested in a not just fairness but sustainability try to move away from a model in which a graduate students education is hundred percent vested in one person. Right, it is so dangerous and we've heard I, mean we've heard so many horror stories of our right abuse. But even whether it's not outright abuse, there's so many opportunities for a career to be ruined for the person's education to be. Cut Off track because the department basically says, well, it was that one person. And so I really would love to see departments real. Priority that the responsibility to share it over a number of people, and that in fact, the department has much more oversight over supervision. It's a matter of social justice of making the academy feel more inclusive and eventually look more inclusive to. And it's really not just about training teachers. It's also about training students. Because when we act like monoliths in the classroom. As in the case of that Dragon, the English teacher. We train our. Students to dehumanize us. We turn them in other words into monsters of our own creation. Mean vows then and I mean the really mean ones with personal barbs can be seen as a record of students abuse. Not The KINDA give out. But the kind they've experienced. They've been trained to believe their professors are these all knowing in human beings whose mysterious approval will make or break them? The students who lash out are often the ones who carry the most trauma. In, a truly student centered pedagogue knows this. Back to Lulu one such pedagogue who did not lock her monster people in the closet. Even with this student, this female student I still. Worry about her even though she's made my life very difficult. The reason I didn't tell her to drop the class weeks ago is because I wanted to see if I could help her through this course. I could tell something was up and usually when a student acts out something up. And in a university like so easy for a student like that to get lost. It's so easy for a student like that to get lost. The best way to combat the student monster. To Undo the makings of their monstrous nece is to recognize that those students were at some point taught to be monsters. Which means they can be unthought by being handled with care. To break the cycle of mindless pedagogical reproduction we need to step away from the edge of the moral volcano. Nine Gothic dissertation was written reported and produced by me. Anna. Williams. To hear episodes re transcripts and see footnotes head over to my Gothic dissertation dot. com. You can subscribe to my Gothic Dissertation Wherever you get your podcasts including lyceum an exciting new platform that brings together the most inspiring ideas discussions and people in the world's first audio learning community. LYCEUM offers a unique online forum. So if you'd like to engage directly with me about what you've heard, download the LYCEUM APP search for my Gothic dissertation and leave me a comment in the discussion room. The Theme Song For my Gothic dissertation is can't stop running written and performed by Adam Thin Ezra. A. Big. Thanks to him for allowing me to use it. The website and logo for my Gothic dissertation were designed by Brett Forsyth of yellowhammer creative. Consultants, Ginger Marshall Michael Garoppolo and of course, my dissertation committee who lifted the gate and allowed me to do this project in the first place. Thanks to everyone who let me interview them They are Sherry Toughen Kevin Birmingham deirdre Egan Virginia Crisco Meredith Elsie Isabel Scotney Ellen lukaku Elizabeth Allan Judith Pascoe Susan Mingay David Kuebler Palm No Timothy Burke Joe Livingston Kristen Nap John Schwartz Matt. Barton Grenada do Amy Policies Kathy Maghera any sand Jenny Benoi, and my peers Laura Lydia Angela Lulu Caitlin Jamie Kathleen Pedro Philip Maheen Jen Jillian and Marie Margaret Tori Mattie Ian Brady Rachel and Carl. Finally, I'd like to give a shout out to the Iowa public radio talk show team. In. Gauged radio pedagogues that in two, thousand, sixteen and Seventeen, they are Catherine. Charity Nebi. Then keefer Lindsey Moon Emily Woodbury. Claire Ross and Dennis Reece. Thanks for listening and be sure to tune in next week.

Pilgrim Lucy Lucy snow professor Madame Beck Charlotte Bronte Mr Paul graduate student Google Iowa Laura Lydia Angela Lulu Caitli Villette. Elizabeth Allen Lucy Snow Lulus Carl Kristen Nap John Schwartz Matt twitter Villette Lucy England Lucie Jimmy Kimmel
Frankenstein; or, the Modern Lift Master (part two)

My Gothic Dissertation

49:48 min | 9 months ago

Frankenstein; or, the Modern Lift Master (part two)

"It's February twenty, seventh two, thousand eighteen and I'm back where else at the entrance to the EP be parking lot. These. Press the button and take the parking ticket. Please take the parking ticket. Please enter following the God. The latest much emptier at this hour of the day seven, thirty, a M. Classes haven't started yet in Iowa city is still the domain of children being bussed to school and grown-ups driving themselves to work. That means no one is coming here yet to the EP. And without cars in the lot, you can see the Iowa River separating this side of campus, the east from the West campus. With its forboding medical buildings and science labs perched high on the riverbank. Between East and West campus, the river glides along carrying big drifts of snow and ice to the south. It's peaceful. Serene. I'm here this early to attend a session of right on as in W R I T. It's an early morning block of time set aside in the university's Writing Center, which is housed on the first floor of. During these hours, graduate students huddle together and work on their dissertations before the cares of the rest of the day settled in things like answering student emails, attending meetings, lesson planning. And here to interview, Dr Deirdre Egan the Assistant Director of the Writing Center about the reasons she started this right on program how it specifically designed to help graduate students focus on their writing. She greets me at the entrance to the Writing Center and reminds me the interview we'll have to wait until the session is over. This is protected time of silence for the right on crew. So for now. I opened my laptop, put on my headphones and start thinking about my own dissertation. Nature. Holds cult secrets raving revelation a chance to find a volume of the works of Cornelius. AGRIPPA do not waste your time upon this. It is sad trash. It was never that he wanted to prove that the old way was the right one just that the rationalist distinction his father in crimp were making was too simplistic. Closed minded full now. Please wait he guns it through that intellectual gate. And then. He gives it all up. Welcome. Back. To My gothic dissertation. In the last episode, we took a strange look at Victor Frankenstein suggesting that it wasn't God. He meant to challenge in creating his infamous creature, but rather his own teachers, namely, his father Alphonse Frankenstein, and one of his professors named measure cramp. We suggested that from Victor's perspective, they were being closed minded authority figures, not nurturing his curiosity in his interest and instead acting like pedantic pedagogues blocking his access to the ancient philosophy he wanted to study. But like Prometheus Zeus Victor defied their attempts to discourage him pressing forward and combining old knowledge with new science in his infamous act of creation. Doing. So he successfully proved his teachers wrong by making a monumental scientific discovery. The ability to create a living breathing human being using knowledge from the very authors, his teachers tried to block his access to help. But something happens when that creature takes its first breath when the fruit of so much victor's labor finally comes to life. Victor loses his nerve, his hard headed ability to drown out the voices of those who wanted to discourage him. He steps back and sees his creation through their is in feels. Horrified. How can I describe my emotions at this catastrophe? Or how delineate the rich, whom with such infinite pains and care I have endeavoured to form? His change of heart is something that's puzzled scholars for decades because the text doesn't give us much to go on. Why is it that Victor Turns on his creation and abandons it leaving it to Rome, helpless and alone through the German and Swiss wilderness. Only, to develop a murderous rage as a result of his own misery. After giving Walton the line about to describe how he felt when you first saw his creature because remember Shelley's work is framed as victor telling his tale on board, the explorer Robert Walton ship. He offers brief physical description of the creature. The only one we get in the novel. Spoiler, alert. There's no green skin. No neck bolts. His limbs were in proportion and I had selected. His features has beautiful. Beautiful. Crate God. His yellow skin scarcely covered the work of muscles and arteries beneath. His hair was of a lustrous black and flowing his teeth of pearly whiteness. But these luxurious is only formed a more horrid contrast with his watery eyes that seemed almost of the same color of the done white sockets in which they were sacked. His shriveled complexion and straight Black Lips. Some scholars have interpreted the yellow skin, black hair and black lips as Mary. Shelley. Subtle suggestion that the creature isn't white and what horrifies victor is it's racial otherness. So they read vickers abandonment of the creature as Shelley's commentary on Britain's ever expanding empire in its reckless treatment of its conquered non white people. Since the nineteen seventies though there's been another intriguing reading from a line of scholars born out of the Women's Liberation Movement and the second wave feminism. They suggest the reason victor abandoned creature is that he's suffering from something akin to postpartum. Depression. His child is born after a long period of labor, and after all that trauma and strife bringing his progeny into the world, he finds himself unable to love it. They point out that only sixteen months before she started writing Frankenstein. A seventeen year. Old Mary Shelley had given birth to our own first child only to have it die in infancy. Another was born William, only eleven months after that. and. As she wrote the novel, she was once again pregnant with her third child at only twenty years of age. Not to mention the fact that our own mother, the famous eighteenth century philosopher, Mary wollstonecraft had died giving birth to her. For these feminist scholars of the nineteen seventies and beyond Frankenstein is a parable about the unspeakable pain and fear of motherhood. This autobiographical interpretation of the novel as Opposed Part of Myth has really taken off in scholarly circles and my reading is similar to this one because based on that physical description, it does seem clear victors revolted by his creature. He finds it hideous. But I think the creature represents not so much a child as another labor of love that shelly was engaged in. Writing. Which of course, has a long history of being conflated with childbirth. But specifically young Mary Shelley was writing literary work for the first time. And with a very specific audience that like Victor's was anxiously expectant and maybe kind of patronizing. Her father, the renowned philosopher, William Godwin and her husband the up and coming poet Percy Shelley. As noted by the Mini Shelly biographers, an shelley herself. Both of these men had long expected her to produce some literary offspring. Following in her mother's footsteps in their own. Victor was also being watched pretty closely by his own expectant teachers as Viktor. Tells Walton. Back during his time as a student crimp wouldn't let him forget his foolishness and wants expressing interest in occult. Philosophy? Occasional run INS on campus would inevitably result in some patronizing jeering. Professor Krampe often asked me with a sly smile how Cornelius gripper went on, and after this during the time of his independent study, his creation of the creature. Victor's father was also kind of surveilling him. Noting the infrequency of Victor's communication back. Home Alfonse began writing letters to inquire about his son studies quote more particularly than before. Besides these similar situations of surveillance, another reason I think victor's act of creation represent. Shelley's commentary on writing is that there are certain things. Victor seems to find more hideous than others about his creature. I. What follows victor's pronunciation about the absurdity of his intention to make the creature. Beautiful. Beautiful. Great. God is this. His yellow skin scarcely covered the work of muscles and arteries beneath as if this is the explanation for why it's preposterous for him to think of his work is beautiful. So clue number one, the poorly fitting skin. After this victor goes on to describe the creatures, lustrous black hair and pearly white teeth. But he caused these luxury ince's so they're actually all right looking and pretty effeminate. It. But they become grotesque victor says in comparison to this other part of the creature's body. Our second clue. But lease luxuriance is only formed the more horrid contrast with his watery eyes that seemed almost the same color of the done white sockets in which they were set the is. Their watery and the same color as the sockets which is done white. And done here isn't do in e. D U. N A word. We don't really use anymore, but it's used to describe color. The Defines D. U. N. as dark Dusky, murky, and gloomy. So the eyes are watery gloomy, the same color as the sockets in which they're set. In other words. Victor. Daily. Opposite of and vibrant. They seem dull and lifeless, clearly artificial. Made. And this quality of artificial. This madness is something. The two clues have in common. The ill-fitting scan remember scarcely covers victor's painstaking work underneath his stitching together of the intricate system of muscles and arteries. And the is as I just said, seemed lifeless doll. Not, the, proverbial windows of the soul but a signal of their own constructiveness. Both of these clues point to the fact that when Victor looks at his creature. What he sees imperfections. But also it's artificiality. It's having been made. By. Him. In. My reading of Victor Abandons the creature. It's that he sees it as an imperfect product, his imperfect product, any panics at the thought of having to show it to his teachers who historically have been critical of his independent interests. It is sad trash of which this creature is the pinnacle. He had taken a big risks in embarking on the secret mission to prove them wrong with his remarkable invention. But when he sees the resulting prototype functioning but flawed. He's afraid his father and crump will tear it and him to pieces. figuratively. Of course. Back to the right on session. Two. Hours go by pretty quickly as I joined forces with the five or so other Grad students tapping away at their keyboards pausing every. So often to gaze into space thinking. There's a quiet kind of energy in the room, which by the way is a long rectangular space filled mostly with round cafe tables, a bank of desktop computers against one wall. Quiet but for the laptop tapping and the industrial sized coffee machine percolating in the middle of the. Rim. Usually, the writing center is a busy din of noise writing tutors, voices crossing over one another as they consult with students on their essays applications. But for now, there are no clients and everyone is channeling. They're fully caffeinated attention toward their own work. We're all deep in the world of our own minds alone together. But there are occasional nods of recognition when our contemporary gazes meet like ship captains, hailing each other as our boats glide past one another through the early morning fog. Eventually, the quiet spell is broken when the writing center opens for business and a tutoring session begins. At this point, I gather at many things coat bag, computer, recording equipment, and shuffle over to talk to her about why she decided to provide this protected habitat for Grad, students to work in. I felt graduate students were often. Left, floundering around wondering how to accomplish this task of writing a dissertation without a whole lot of support. deirdre is originally from Ireland, as you can probably tell by her accent and she came here in nineteen nineties as an exchange student, but she stayed and eventually ended up with a PhD Ginger Women's. Sexuality, studies. Working as assistant director of the Writing Center Judea sees. Dissertation. Grad. Students from all walks of academic life. I. Think the humanities particularly difficult. Because they're all kinds of. Strangers options about writing. The Kit in the way of writing a dissertation such as can you tell me what of the mark is a couple of assumptions? One of them is that it writing is an isolated individual project that you go. Often you do it in a cave and you come back out with the you know perfectly formed piece of writing this being in a cave. This isolation says Deirdre can lead to the floundering. Going from being the poised capable ship captain to the catch of the day. flapping around desperately on the deck. and. It's actually built into the process of getting a PhD in the humanities. This moment when you're cut loose and left to your own devices. That's what right on was designed to help combat. Simply, by putting Grad students in the presence of one another even if they aren't directly interacting. Because without this common ground, you're says, you can easily drift into a very anxious place. Rice So, there's kind of a vicious cycle, right. So you stop working in your project every day and you become more distance from your project, and this not ideas are now percolating in your head, you about going back and picking up your your writing, and you just feel like panicking. So instead, you spent two hours watching Netflix, because it's easier. Right and you don't have to think about it. It's subsumed. Forget about the anxiety for a few minutes, and then you know it emerges again when you turn off Netflix's and realize just wasted two hours watching the ground or whatever. compounded. been there. But besides students writing in isolation, drifting farther and farther from their original ideas getting lost and anxious and seeking distraction that leaves them feeling more lost and anxious. There's another side of the bad writing equation as well. Those, who do the reading and commenting? The Alphonsus and cramps. Because it's the thought of what they'll think and say that's making these students. So anxious in the first place, right? I asked Deirdre. What she thought about it. Yes. As I said, I don't all advisors are am weedy equipped to provide feedback that is super useful and they have good intentions. I'm not saying they don't, but I just think sometimes they don't i. think this am particularly in the academy was professors have no. Training in how to respond to writing are to give feedback to writing, they learn it through the process of pure review which they do for their You know it in their field. Often they are seeing my new scripts that are more polished at this point than they can expect to get from a graduate student, for example. They really don't like seeing the stitches in other words. The ill-fitting skin and lifeless is. The evidence of what Deirdre would call later in our conversation, a messy process, which often ironically essential to a polished product. But? Since especially in the humanities. Professors advising Grad students may not be used to getting bogged down in the muck of someone. Else's mind having more contact. With only the clean finished products. It can be difficult for them to see the value buried there. So their criticism can seem harsh and confusing to the student who remember is already on pretty steady ground to begin with. It becomes easier to just try to wait over into the professors less murky territory than to try and Fisher. Original idea out of luck, shine it up and try to defend it. If you could even find it again. Anyway. If you're not in regular contact with your project. Then it's easy for you to get a kind of enticed by other people's visions of us and to lose sight of your own vision of what that should be So you know maybe you've done nothing on it for three months, and he suddenly did a months worth of work got some feedback, and now your adviser season in particular light an because you haven't got really strong vision of what it is. It's kind of easy to. To go along with their vision, but then you don't know exactly what their vision is because maybe they haven't communications is perfectly to us. So then you do another little bitterness, you send us that that's not quite what they had in mind book because you didn't know what you had in mind you. There's all kinds of frustration rights and people get frustration with their advisers because they're like they want me to do this thing and I thought I knew it was and it isn't that. Again ben there. was there. So often, I had pretty much moved in actually. We'll probably go back several more times I. Finish this station. But for now, I think for her time. Gather up my belongings and leave the writing center, which by ten am is buzzing with activity in conversation. I need to talk to other participants I. Think. Others who were in the muck like me. Like. Was the paper I turned in. Good. It was not good. It was an unholy Frankenstein monster of different methodologies. I had sewn together like the dark of the night because I was trying to do book the thing that I wanted to do and the thing that I suspected that she wanted me to do. This is Angela Toscano fellow PhD student in English, conveniently drawing an analogy between her own work and Victor. Frankenstein's. Angela is lively Sicilian American hand talker, and she's in her last semester here at Iowa finishing up her dissertation before the Grad Colleges early summer graduation deadline. Angela. And I talk at her kitchen table one afternoon in March. Looking back over Grad career, she reflects on her own sense of anxiety at turning and work for her professors. And how it can feel more like giving them. What you think they want rather than actually producing something original. But Lake I was trying to meet expectations that were art tick Y-. Elated, and that to me is like the worst part rate because then you're just guessing the dark like a, no, I'm probably GONNA. Get a green on this and it's like from forget about this, and maybe I'm really maybe I'm really done like maybe I'm not maybe I'm not actually a good scholar like maybe 'em really dumb. Maybe am not actually a good scholar. This kind of work gets personal really quickly. which is something Angela expressed really well later in the conversation to when I asked her, if there were any time when Grad had made her feel unworthy. Yes. Let's see. Let me just. Roll for the Rolodex of my mind of these things. I mean the whole process. Of Lake dissertation thing is designed to make you feel unworthy rate, league. is talking about this with someone else. It's like they forget that your fucking chapter unity not means commenting on the chapter of this isn't where it needs to be. But like all you hear is like I'm not where I need to be Angelo wasn't the only one who talked about how anxiety to meet unclear expectations led her to fundamentally question her identity. It was one of the. Weirdest and most difficult writing experiences. A, I've experienced that I've had here. Part of it was. Perhaps an absence of listening and actually hearing. My ideas. In a conversation with another colleague in the English PhD program this time a member of my own cohort, Lydia Mons breeze, the same experience emerged. Lydia described an instance when she was writing an essay under the direction of a very particular professor. Someone who is trying to offer a lot of support, but whose directions were often so difficult for Lydia, understand that they had the opposite effect of support. Lydia would walk away from meetings with this person feeling confused and unsure of herself which led to panic. That somehow always ended up being. Moving away from the ideas that I wanted to follow and to to pursue. and. Sending me off on these kind of rabbit hole tangents. that. It didn't. It didn't. I ended I didn't even it didn't make sense to me. I lost the logic of my own paper and I lost logic of my own argument because it wasn't something was actually. Arguing anymore, I don't know. I was it was weird. It was very uncomfortable. and. It made me kind of. Deeply second guests my. My ability to. Generate, a coherent anything. Later like Angela. She also explicitly stated how such interactions made her feel unworthy, not just as a scholar, but as a person. That's like. Like fundamental character fundamentally characterizes my experience of being a graduate student is being unworthy like not good enough. It's never good enough. That's the tricky thing because the the boundaries between that get blurred very. Very insidiously Where it's your work is in good enough, but that becomes. Very, much you are in good enough because for so. Inextricably bound up in the work that we do. To find a way through this gauntlet and make space for your ideas to insist that even though they may not seem like it. They are important. Often, means facing the scariest villain of all head on. Rejection. And, yes. Rejection happens all the time in this business. People apply for academic conferences, academic journals, awards, and plenty of times they get rejected from those things like Lydia. Said, the lines get blurred really insidiously and it starts to feel personal rejection. Exclusion from the group he wanted so desperately to be included in to feel secure. In other words attaining the ultimate fulfillment professional validation of your original innovative ideas. Often means pressing against traditions and norms of that profession in ways that feel uncomfortable. Even. Frightening. It means putting yourself at risk of abandonment. And this is a fundamental choice that every young scholar has to make. Do, you follow well established conventions as a sure way of getting accepted into the academic community. Or do you strike out on a risky venture and put everything at stake? including, your professional credibility and even your psychological wellbeing. I am now convinced that my father was justified in conceiving that I should not be altogether free from blame. At the crucial moment when Victor. Faces this decision. He's isolated in his laboratory gazing on his messy creation and thinking about the prospect of showing his teachers who've been watching him from afar. I knew well, that four. What would be my father's feelings? Reflecting on this moment, he tells Walton he agrees with his father and finds himself to blame for indulging in his work with too much passion and not enough reason. Aka Not enough listening to the voices of authority. But. I would argue that in this moment after the creature comes to life. Victor Actually listened to much to the Voice of authority. or at least his internalized version of it. And he panics. He expects that his father CRIMP will reprimand him even condemning maybe. NOT, entirely convinced. They would have had victor actually shown them what he had done. Sure they had a lot of strong ideas about what didn't didn't count as knowledge, but they did seem pretty devoted to the advancement of science which victor's creature undeniably represents. Nevertheless from past experiences. It, is sad. Trash Victor's convinced that they'll hate it and by extension him. So after a few moments of assessing the fault of his creation and trying to figure out what to do. Victor. Just leaves. He goes to his room and somehow manages to fall asleep only to wake up and see the creature standing silently beside his bed. A pathetic full grown toddler looking for comfort after a bad dream. At this point, victor abandons it for a second time. Running out onto the streets, of Ingolstadt in raving around like a madman. When he returns home, later, his creation is nowhere to be found. That's because just blinking into life. The creature has stumbled out into the world only to be violently spurned by every terrified person he encounters. MONTHS, years of heartbreaking rejections from the human race. He so admires and wants to join. The creature finally becomes vengeful interns. Yes. Into a monster, tracking down members of the Frankenstein family and murdering them to punish him later. I win. The creature finally finds Victor Again, he confronts him about irresponsible parenting only to be rejected for third time when Victor Refuses to build him a companion with whom to disappear in peace. When? This very reasonable request isn't granted. The creature continues to kill his creators family and friends one by one. Until Victor Decides he has to find and destroy this monster he created. Locked in a battle of wills creature and Creator pursue one another all over the European continent, and eventually wind up in the North Pole where Walton Finds Victor and brings him aboard a ship. Like a lot of modern readers, I clearly consider the central tragedy of the novel, not to be Victor's creation of the creature, but rather his abandonment of it. Similar to Rousseau's conception of the natural man, the creature was seemingly born pure naive youth benevolent. He wants nothing more than companionship with humans. And he seeks to achieve it through learning. A process of growth and development that his creator outright denies him when he abandoned him again and again determined that he's inherently bad and unable to be improved through education. In deciding that the creature is unworthy in this way. Victor essentially becomes lift master to point out. Blocking access to the knowledge, his son and pupil wants the most. Like. Alphons and current before him. Victor believes he has the authority to decide what his creature may may not know. Only, his neglect is even more agree justice because it leads to the death of nearly everyone he loves. It's a familiar vicious cycle of abuse. Because as David puncher reminds us the biblical notion of the sins of the father being visited upon the sons is a common feature of the gothic genre. Lucien of inheritance has always been interesting in Gothic. Because there's always the possibility of a very troubled inheritance, inheritance may never be as simple as you want with the the goods, the things that belong to your forefathers to your family. They also come the family ghosts. One term that is often used to think about these things in gothic fiction is the biblical notion of the sins of the fathers way in which things which your forefathers may have done. And about which you may never about or not know about maybe Lee visited upon you. So that, you'll quest in the gothic novel is sometimes to find out what is it? That's been done in the past. Which means that I? have to suffer like this independent, the present for the creature as for Victor. The suffering of the present, their intellectual abandonment and shaming is very much a product of their father sends, which in both cases turns out to be anxious conformity with authority. Both alfons and Victor Frankenstein. With different degrees of severity. Shame their sons out of their pursuits because they themselves are afraid of the judgment of their peers and superiors. Alfons. The well respected city magistrate doesn't want his son reading books out of Vogue and Calvin. Est. rational. Geneva. Victor having. Won The admiration of his own father and professor doesn't want to disappoint them with his hideous progeny, his living creation that he designed out of a spirit of rebellious innovation. But that he didn't think would be impressive enough to those critical figures. So continues the cycle of scholarly tradition and intellectual conformity captain placed by judgment ridiculing shame. or at least the fear of those things. If it isn't clear right now, I'm suggesting that one of the ways Grad school feels particularly Gothic is that the same cycle going from being the one stuck behind the lift master to becoming the lift master oneself also seems to be built in. In his two thousand, fifteen book, the Graduate School, mess what caused it, and how we can fix it. LYNYRD. CASSUTO also notes the cyclical nature of graduate programs. How resistant to change they are because they tend to like doing things how they've always been done. Graduate School is such. A Conservative institution. Academia is very conservative with a small see, but graduate school even more conservative. Than the university at large here, he is talking specifically about the conservatism of the dissertation back in two thousand, twelve on a TV show called higher education today produced at the University of the District of Columbia. The dissertation has we know it. Started in German universities in the early nineteenth century in the United? States. That model at after the civil war where it is continued more or less in the same form for over a century. What this form actually looks like is a proto monograph or the makings of a book dedicated to one specialized subject such as manifest destiny in nineteenth century, American fiction or gingered pathology in modernist literature or monstrosity on the renaissance stage. These are all by the way topics have real dissertations that were published pro quest and online dissertation database in two thousand. Sixteen. Graduate Student Spend Years Researching and writing these tomes, which as I've said, elsewhere, usually clock in around two or three hundred pages. Because they're supposed to be the makings of what Sidney Smith refers to as the tenure book. A former president of the modern. Language. Association and author of the recent manifesto for the humanities. Smith explains that dissertations are part of new PhD's job applications because hiring committees, WANNA see how likely it is that within six years of being hired. These job candidates will be able to get their work published at respected academic university presses in order to receive tenure. It's the old publish or Perish Maxim, which if you think about it is a pretty gothic configuration considering the genres preoccupation with death. This gothic do this or die. Ultimatum has been lurking in our professional lingo for a long time. and. As it turns out a lot of potential job candidates parish before even having the chance to publish. That's because of the high attrition rates for Humanities PhD's that I mentioned in the first. Chapter. Here's Leonard could pseudo talking about what he uncovered about attrition rates in researching his book. The graduate school mess. We are harboring a lot of suctions that structure what it is that we do. That result in these workplace conditions that are that are, it's not just disreputable. They're absurd where we're we're running a workplace where first of all, there's fifty percent attrition. And Out of that fifty percent attrition. Behalf of the fifty leave early, which is fine because graduate school is strong flavor and it's not for everybody leaving earliest fine says Cassuto because it's a learning experience, students can still walk away with a master's degree and go find something else to do more to their taste. But the other half of those who leave their the victims of the story. Twenty twenty, five percent of that. First one hundred. They are leaving in the latter part of their program after years of being. Of of abject suffering in plain sight of their peers and their teachers. Roughly, a quarter of all who enter PhD programs in the humanities, make it to the point of writing into tation only to decide to give up and walk away. After years of abject suffering in plain sight as Kudo says. They're abandoning their creatures, their dissertations because they just can't get them to conform into the acceptable models of the profession and they too are abandoned by the profession itself. The one they've spent years trying to enter. In in our current climate of anxiety about the continued existence of humanities programs, the fear of scholarly perishing intensified, which leads to more conformity more panic and shame directed towards attempts at innovation. More conservatism with a little see as CASSUTO. Graduate students in their faculty advisors are trying to make sure dissertations are setting them up in the best way for one of those few tenure track jobs available. And the result according to Kevin Birmingham is a lot of boring scholarly writing. The biggest problem with the labor market is that it's making people risk averse and scholarship is supposed to be risk averse authorship is. Risky is supposed to be original. It's a toast to. Strike out into, actually it's supposed to do what Victor Frankenstein attempts to do in other words. Pushed. The limits of a discipline and Kevin? Birmingham knows about pushing limits and taking risks. A graduate of the English program at Harvard Birmingham went onto write a brilliant book about James. Joyce called the most dangerous game, which won the prestigious Truman Capote award for literary criticism back in. Two Thousand Sixteen. As. It happens that award is administered by the writer's workshop right here at the University of Iowa, and when Birmingham came to campus, he gave a speech titled. The, great shame of our profession that absolutely shocked and blew everyone away. It was later printed in the chronicle of higher education where it went by rope. He was nice enough to talk to me about a year afterwards, which is when he told me about. Scholarship needing, to be risky. So scaring people out of doing innovative scholarship. He says the Academic Job Market for humanities PhD's is innocence. Defeating the purpose of the profession. What we how basically is a story? Coming of age that is not risky and instead of being risky, what they're doing is gaming. And Gaming. The system is not what the academy should be about and then these. Professors get upset when they find that their students are good at gaming, the system instead of being a risky instead of striking out on their own instead of. Doing intellectually challenging and a surprising things that we want them to do their copying the professors, and so the more we can have. Younger scholars who? Clued become senior scholars who are doing risky work the veteran later, I asked Birmingham if he would elaborate on exactly what he meant by gaming the system, and here's what he said quote. The old fashioned enlightenment ideal of research is that scholars investigate under examined or misunderstood subjects in order to correct our errors or tell us why we've all missed something important. The goal is to serve humanity by better understanding the nature of our world. Gaming, the system is serving your own career by better understanding the whims of our profession. Every profession has its flaws and it's careerism, but the academy is particularly bad at keeping it in check. And while career is is usually answer Larry to the work that careerists do it's foundational in the academy, it determines the work that scholars do. In other words, PhD's are frequently walking away with more expertise in how to get ahead in academia than an actual academic work. More. Focused on pleasing the lift masters out there then on the loftier goal of serving the good of humanity. So. Once again, Grad students are limiting their own potential. Burying their innovative ideas and reassuring themselves that they can get to them. Once they've achieved tenure. A security net, that less than half of them will actually get. In twelve years or so. So what can bring an end to this vicious cycle of intellectual and creative conservatism? In Frankenstein, it would have been different if victor had just had the courage to show his teachers, what he'd made to follow through with his innovation by actually publicizing it instead of hiding behind his fear of ridicule. What does this mean for the real world of graduate education though? Maybe, something like what happened to Virginia? CRISCO while she was earning her PhD in English. Just next door at the University of Nebraska Lincoln. CRISCO is now an associate professor of English at Fresno State University, and she had this extraordinary experienced during her grad program, which was basically that her graduate professors allowed her in her peers to take part in designing their own curriculum. They wrote about the experience in an article published in two thousand and three in the scholarly periodical called pedagogy. The Article Graduate Education as education is subtitled the pedagogical arts of institutional critique and it advocates for a more collaborative style of research and writing in the humanities, not just between graduate students themselves, but between Grad students and their professors. which is exactly what happened in the CO authoring of this article. Two Professors Chris Gallagher and Deborah Mentor teamed up with the students in Gallagher's graduate seminar to evaluate the insurer. To Grad, studies course in their department, what they determined was that the course inadequately prepared grass students for the actual work of Grad Studies. And so they work together to create another course would better serve their needs. CRISCO was one of the students who took part in this collaborative curricular design, and I talked to her about it via skype one afternoon in late. April, you know honestly, that class was really formative in in my professional life because number one and forefront of the idea of institutional critique and the importance of that an institute having institutional literacy by Institutional Literacy, she means the way that change happens at an institutional level and for her one of the most important ways of doing that is through curricular design. The decisions about what students study and why that's one of the ways. Particularly, professors have a lot of power we have. we have power over curriculum, we articulate with the curriculum does. So to invite graduate students to the curriculum. Party. is to share with them a little bit of that power. To collapse the hierarchy that usually exists between faculty and students can be so silting to innovation. and. Maybe one reason there isn't more incentive to do Chris goes professors did which is to pay close attention to Grad students needs and give them a voice in the process. Is that at the institutional level, such moves aren't really valued. There's reward for doing this kind of work It's also something that is very time consuming and. Often doesn't always. Count. For tenure and promotion and those kinds of things, and so it's also one of the ways that that we become. Sort of disenfranchised also because there isn't even though it's one of the ways we have power, it's also not valued as far as the way that we spend our time. That just because the institution doesn't reward people for doing it. She says that doesn't mean it is an important. She reiterated that in fact, it's one of the more significant forms of power professors have in their institutions, and because of that, if graduate students are going to be properly trained to wield that power one day. Such training should start. Now, we need to gave graduate students the opportunity to be members of the discipline and to help them to. practice, the reading writing, and researching strategies that members of the discipline do and give them opportunities that are authentic at or as authentic as possible in order to engage in the kinds of literacy practices that we do as scholars in the field. You know I feel like that's the way. THAT WE MAKE Education, meaningful that students have agency in their learning that. We teach them strategies that are relevant. Another perhaps more basic way. I might describe what CRISCO experienced as a graduate student and she now advocates for. and. This is fundamental to what we do is humanists. is to treat graduate students like they're humans. I. Also think that there's a way in which like professors are trained to see like Nazi graduate students people. You know I think that the graduate students like performed that the? We don't talk about our personal lives. We don't talk about our mental struggles because we fear that we're going to get punished. If we mentioned those things and like a professional setting, it's unprofessional, right? That sounds horrible but feel in a lot of my interactions. With people in academic circles. It seems. As though. People have become. So they've lived in an intellectual world for so long. It's become over in overly intellectualized kind of atmosphere that forgets people have real things going on. People are real people are humans. We have feelings. We have hearts, we have emotions and we have. Were notches thinking machines. Allowing Grad Students, the opportunity to have a say in their own curriculum. Instead of relying on the DICTA handed down by those above them. It's a way of recognizing and actively working against the power hierarchies that make students feel dehumanized. It's that feeling I would argue that leads among other things to their anxiety about writing our most basic form of participation and the scholarly community. If masters were more invested and lifting rather than not lifting the intellectual institutional and pedagogical gates that keep Grad students mystified and powerless. Maybe. More would make it through successfully. Maybe. They would also not go on to become lift masters two point Oh like victor who literally did not treat his intellectual charge like a human. Recognizing Grad students humanity and giving them a voice is not just beneficial for them. It's a way to break the cycle and I even see it like with graduate students, the way that they talk about their students. So I think it's really like a vicious cycle where you're like. There's. There's no reason to be angry at lake. Your eighteen year old. Who can't write a thesis statement like they're not doing it 'til they were you. They're just they just don't know how. because. Yes. Even though Grad students do struggle against our own shadowy lift masters. We often end up becoming them ourselves like Victor. But more on that in the next chapter of my Gothic dissertation. Niger thick. Dissertation was written reported and produced by me Anna. Williams. To hear episodes, re transcripts and see footnotes head over to my GOTHIC DISSERTATION DOT COM. You can subscribe to my Gothic dissertation wherever, you get your podcasts including ACM. An exciting new platform that brings together the most inspiring ideas, discussions, and people in the world's first audio learning community. Licey offers a unique online forum. So if you'd like to engage directly with me about what you've heard, download the LYCEUM. APP, search for my Gothic dissertation and leave a comment in the discussion room. The Theme Song For my Gothic dissertation is can't stop running written and performed, by Adam Ben Ezra. A big. Thanks to him for allowing me to use it. The website and Logo for my dissertation were designed by Brett Forsyth of yellowhammer creative. Consultants Ginger Marshall. Michael Garoppolo and of course my dissertation committee who lifted the gate and allowed me to do this project in the first place. Thanks to everyone who let me interview them? They are Sherry toughen, Kevin Birmingham deirdre Egan Virginia Crisco Meredith. Isabel. Scotney Ellen Lukaku Elizabeth Allan Judith. Pascoe. Susan Mingyi David Kuebler Palm No Timothy Burke Joe Livingston Kristen Neb. John Schwartz Matt Barton Rene Liu Amy Police Kathy Maghera. Any Sand Jenny Benoi and my peers Laura Linda Angela Lulu. CAITLIN. Jamie Kathleen. Pedro. Philip Marine Gen Jillian and Marie Margaret Tori Mattie Ian. Brady Rachel, and Carl. Finally, I'd like to give a shoutout to the Iowa public radio talk show team who were my engaged radio pedagogues back in two thousand, sixteen, Seventeen. They are Catherine Perkins. Charity. Nebi, then Keefer, Lindsey, Moon, emily. Woodbury. Clare Roth, and Dennis. Race. Thanks for listening and be sure to tune in next week.

Victor graduate student professor Victor Frankenstein Grad Students Writing Center Dr Deirdre Egan Robert Walton Mary Shelley Graduate School Alphonse Frankenstein William Godwin Victor Actually Lydia Mons Iowa city Iowa River Assistant Director Laura Linda Angela Lulu Iowa Victor Again