19 Episode results for "Huffpost"
Voice in Canada - Amanda de Souza from Huff Post Canada on the Podcast
"Hey there so I'm pretty excited about today's briefing because this truly is all Canadian content as you know on Tuesdays I love to put a little teaser of what's going on in the podcast. Rep The podcast episode. One twelve now so you can access it at AOL. Eight and Canada DOT CA slash one on twelve and this one is all about the flash briefing that HUFFPOST CANDIDA is producing. It is a really really good one and it is All about and topical news in This podcast I interview Amanda Desouza and she is the producer of the huffpost splash flash briefing. And it's really fascinating to hear about what they have gone through what their process has been and how they come up with their stories what they are doing and how they are bringing bringing this tiny news to Canadians in a really well produced flash briefing. So I encourage you to check out the podcast here. This conversation with Amanda Desouza and really get a perspective active from inside of Huffpost Canada again. You can access at AOL A in Canada dot ca slash. One twelve and. I will see you over. There have a great day. The brief cast dot F._M..
Food: Mom's Cooking
"I'm Angela and Francis and I'm data from Huffpost Canada you're listening to it's our mom's cooking episode my mom is like punk and alternative Metal News Economic Fifteen sixteen and she's the one who follows all the blogs and figures out when all the shows are and musty of it which fits for her because she is avert she's Lebanon and has an Armenian background her dad is Uncle Kouba Tasha reconcile my my interpretation of myself I tasha became Vegan but she didn't realize giving up meat eggs just kind of a slow realization after I had made that decision where it was like Oh wait like wait that has eggs and dairy net and that was my favorite I and I had committed to it so it was just something that I thought was going to have to be I don't really been drinking milk recently it's kind of like Oh God busted I've been Vegan for like for us she just kept going and I just kind of let her go and about with it I didn't even have to say anything so suddenly it four and alternate and cooking with Tofu and just trying new things adopting a stew which is really common or like chicken and that's it so without the media is just like Oh my God the possibilities the flavor explosion this is incredible and it went from me being able to eat very little some people think that you culture and that stuff is important to her and she's found a way to reconcile those things actually in Lebanon I felt like she was in a much better position to adopt again I would wait for her to do that because I still felt like it didn't really belong to me experience it's that kind of reluctance to adapt ZAC conversation with my aunt recently because I've said my family's Jamaican my be able to eat Jamaican or Chinese food ever again because it's like all pork chicken and beef about Mama's everybody had a mom story and it was the way mom cooked that grandmom cooking when you always finish your plate and you never waste food like if you had a speck make for just to just for three she can only make for six to twenty oh you had to compare fruits and vegetables right like not just the prices but picking them I can't believe it's not butter just can't leave it because it's not you were a part of our moms culinary traditions exactly everyone has a role in their family lake become keepers of tradition it's kind of like a portable link to home 'cause and and a lot of times it's because of those recipes that they hold onto it's actually also another I think we actually should be taking more of an active role though in keeping dirt traditions alive Oh Yeah so when I was growing up she didn't like make me come in and help I actually slowed aww putting it in the pot who bombs rose like is that on it's head house oh well instead of sticking to authentic methods this mom is the queen my mom's all about really getting people to actually do the cooking the main labor where the time goals to create that is actually the golden color comes through no burnt onions otherwise that's GonNa come through in the in the actual in about fifteen minutes or maybe some of them vegetable curries maybe in ten minutes it and then when they wanna make a chickpea curry China Masala on a week night then they will pull it and so I would always come in and say well you can do that if and I'm very particular on flavor and so
Love: Missing You
"Hey It's Tony and I'm El Dorado from Huffpost Canada you're listening very familiar to Philip and dawn Morgan the mother son duo taking a ride with us don would hop on the bus at Leslie and Sheppard Avenue in two steps later Emerson and it's went on for I what I was doing on the weekend and so I've mentioned that my mom didn't apart in just social and so I said if you're welcome to come if you'd like to must've let him in because they didn't buzz and there he was the door okay handsome he was six to three six three but we had a lot of things in common I because he was always coming over we just started spending more and more an emerson continued to ride the bus together for many years it became a place where she the term I would just say it was my first journey so when I think about today's topic I almost feel like I was born into I was always surrounded by the feeling of missing someone and it's it before we only talk through online through letters sometime sending Belichick by an boxes which is a very popular practice in the Philippines days whatever someone requests for so that might look like Nike shoes if they really I wanna take care of them yeah it's a care package is a care package exactly them a handful of them only once in my life when I was really young and country or if they visited you know in Canada and the memories we could have had experience so much of the same stuff as me back home like I see them on Instagram on facebook the same TV shows Follow the same kinds of music and I would love I only know them through pictures yeah you know what I'm wondering if they feel the same way in Florida we met up in Florida by complete coincidence we didn't even really plan it like you've never really met her but you have the same mannerisms you move your hand the same coming out she had to separate herself from her two loves her family and her faith have any sexual attraction to boys I will meet the right one and it will just happen I will know God will my name is Vivian Kendall Kong I am twenty seven religion brought Vivians parents to Canada they worried staying in Hong Kong would lead to Christian persecution my niece Christian newcomers it's a place for families do you know hidden racism and stuff to just like sit and be with people the special place in her heart she still really good at it by the way John Not Q. Communities when I think about it now is very painful but I didn't feel it views from families started to sting everyone's uh-huh to realize there was something that was afraid of sharing with them made it so he's pushing them away and so I came up she told her friends and she made a facebook post I feel really free right now not talking to them when your family is your only social support sadness there is a lot of just so I went and this pastor talked at me for like an hour and a half for of something I had I had joy in and Vivian moved out of her parents place and stopped Ed piece with being away from home and she came to terms with her situation through our him wrong and it's technically a song of grief but it's also a song of Lake acce- bills role whatever my lot you've taught hey exists not fully understanding where you are and it's well with my as a child of immigrants allowed me to be okay with being in limited spaces think is the PB of second-generation programming is people and that's something that I'm actively working on fixing getting to the sending her letters apparently they all arrived at the same time like I was like no I was trained different things and it turned out that she is also part of the church and she also has worked for the church before it all changed you should come to this church with me and I was like h hurt divorces were harmonizing or existing together Dan and I felt like there was a piece of me that had been missing that was slotted back in place basically like because they knew I'd been away from the church for so long and they were just like yes finally someone and she was like do you think they're ready for that because it's a wedding it's different worried yet tuck they're so happy I was really upset with my dad the entire time because he was filming it on Eh Maria Kendall on harbours in the eyes of God Meiling her arms are open and she nearly tackles him at a hug after he told her to go be free elsewhere she says it's never going to be like it openly with my parents and to have my parents asked how she is and have harass cow my parents are stints does not get enough credit when it comes to relationships like when I reflect on emotionally it just wasn't all there sometimes I think a lot of that stems from US cultural traditions and values I wanNA follow the follow the leader follow the leader that's it was only as distance of time like growing up both of us becoming adults I know I love you is kind of thrown around as like I don't really hear that before us was like Son Arts Kick I love you son Missy son so it's really nice that it's it's an interesting concept because I've learnt that it's okay want to look like and they can't just be up in my face all the time and being nosy because I'm not a little these people that truly do love I just would like some space every now and then in big ethnic families you know there's there's so there's so many people aches our generation I think to break that cycle to form our own relationships have our own true but it's not right it does feel like a betrayal but I think that sort of the nation to change it and how celebration kept one mother's memory alive so infra hard to instill in a lot of different aspects of my childhood I was put in Hindi school tided myself on being a coconut so the idea of being brown on
Food: Fitting In
"I'm Angela and Francis and melter Netto from Huffpost Canada you're listening to born US yes natalie ram to haul blogs Arken daily share common edible any when that plagued their summers when they were kids since so everything rice meat vegetables bad look the components of the dish arm by it's that you had to eat it so we went on a road trip so I think distinctly won't pay lowers the cost of minor that while they were Canadian like other kids her and we would have to eat the same thing every time we left the house they didn't understand what it was like to be a kid also right so that's part of the problem like around with Trinidadian routes is a very specific place to occupy 'cause when you're a kid the world is a job we all got as children of immigrants but none of everybody else yeah it's a balancing act between fitting in with your home culture and our Canadian I feel like everybody wants to fit in it's only natural you just Kinda WanNA blend but trying to fit in with the Canadian side with wherever your family's from like for example he pathway you can't win yeah exactly and you really can't win 'cause then I'll go back to school chirp doing enough you know because when it comes to my identity I feel like it mirror they're just tolerating me it's so true and then there there are still some happy places where there's black and then it depends on the day really like at home we make Jamaican food groped Jamaican I grew up Canadian and all that Kinda works together nicely sometimes there's some nights that's a good and it's a bad thing it means we're always figuring it out but you end up with worlds Hannah Montana's style and sometimes it's your parents who are kind of taking the reins and steering you one way you think of you know leave it to Beaver I always joke to people who look at me and assume I'm you know very very westernized my dad was an accountant and that my mom was a teacher so we're assimilation was never consciously brought to launch US nervous about adopting the cultures that the new place that they called home if we were truly Canadian from generations back other possessions their property were taken away from them and the got hance was this huge badge of shame even though it wasn't their fault following the attack all Japanese people were classified as enemy aliens regardless of their citizenship owns with no electricity or running water they lived in tents and shacks he was a man of few words came up in discussion somehow and we're talking about traditional he's like burdock root because when he was in turned nine brothers and boil it she make a soup out of it she you know mash it and after Mark's family was released from the internment camp he says they focus on assimilating probably eight sort of North American fare three to four times a week and then traditional they wanted to protect me in a sense that kids pick on anything that's different so even but it was always you know sandwich orange and a Brownie or something like that it was very generically the second I'd be a tourist as much as anybody who went to Japan for the first time I've never culture as more of a survival tactic I guess instilled in with me in so I don't really miss it I was truly raised as a Canadian youth story because it kind of shows how intergenerational the effects of racism can of confidence in who he is and where he belongs and I really admire that ends of Future Company Fund back he's got a bit of a superpower actually let's that he I think I've ever met a mom that didn't love feeding me I have no food allergies what's amplified when I caught the travel bug I had to go data I thought this would be the most opportune time to go and pay them a visit I got to meet my uncle and the first thing they did was take me to Korean Barbecue and also to my grandmother that Hugh so happy that I Korean was that there was a very good probability that I would not absolutely love and enjoy that's when things really that Jessup loves to eat he loves Korean food hey come to their favorite spots took to the specialty place that specializes pick that and I said that looks Korean Fried Chicken in Korea for anything but the best was yet to come I think it I'd pretty sure was at least eighteen tastings of dinner hours laughing eating because they didn't know when the next time I would come back particularly my grandmother for months with them for me to know that to be made comfortable is very assuring I mean it's now I grew up in this country there is and it was probably the first time I realized that my parents Jiang their time and most importantly sharing their food I'm Angela Francis help those dot ca born and raised US produced by Al D'Amato and Stephanie Werner for I'm sorry
Huff Post Splash Flash Briefing with Amanda de Souza
"You're listening to episode one twelve of Alexa in Canada. The voice experience. Hey there I'm Dr Terry Fisher. One part physician. One part voiced newscast when big part Canadian radiant and one small part of our community northern voice together. Let's explore how voice technology is transforming our lives north of the border. Let's talk voice. Hey there and welcome to episode one twelve of the podcast so happy to have you along with me today for this episode as you know in case you haven't figured it out yet and I'm sure you have a low flash briefings this little news flash I do love flash briefings and today's all about flash briefings again but but here's a really cool angle. Get ready for some all Canadian content one of the best flash briefings out there and unfortunately I just don't think it has enough exposure Roger. But we're going to change that today before we get to that. I want to tell you again about flash REAPING FORMULA DOT COM. It is the complete comprehensive course decrease your own flash briefing and it is entirely free so if you want to check that out simply go to flash BRIEFING FORMULA DOT COM and you can have a look and start on your own flash briefing. Okay today as I said I want to really highlight this Canadian content and this is a flash briefing incredible flash briefing done by huff post Canada and this flash briefing is called HUFF. Post to Canada splash and it is hosted by Amanda Desouza. They we are creating incredible quality content on this it is produced. It is timely is topical it is all Canadian and it is is an absolute pleasure to introduce you to Amanda and have her come on and talk about their process and why they got into This flash briefing and of course it goes without saying if you haven't enabled there flushing go and do it because it's really one of the best ones out there that I've heard with content specifically geared towards Canadians. All right so check it out and in the meantime let's get into the interview. Here is Amanda all right. Well it is a pleasure to have Amanda on the PODCAST. Amanda thank you so much for for joining listeners today. Thanks so much terry excited to be here. Wonderful let's welcome first of all I had to set this up because you have an incredible edible flash briefing and I'm really excited to learn all about it when you started doing it and the whole process behind it but before we get to any of that love for you to take a few moments and introduce yourself to the audience needs sure I just wanted to also start by saying congrats to you Terry for everything you accomplished in this space and becoming an Alexa champion. That's really cool. So congrats on that becky very much so a bit about me. I am a senior producer at have post Canada. I also work under the Resin Media Studios Group because Huffpost is owned by Verizon media so I- produce Video and audio for brands like Huffpost as well as a brands under the Yahoo Banner honor and brands under the riot. Banner which does a lot of branded content and stuff like that great and so how long have you been in this in your dream job and in the space he's been with huffpost which is now rising meter for about four years but I've been doing video and audio for. Oh my gosh maybe almost a decade like I just love video and audio story storytelling and when the opportunity came up to host the flash briefing for Huffpost Post. I just thought it was such an exciting opportunity. It's a new and innovative space and I think a space that really news should be looking at the formats in which people are getting their news or always always changing. We know it's becoming More convenient to get your news from your phone and now it's going to be even more convenient to get it. I think from Smart Speaker devices so I was really excited to jump it hosting this absolutely so I'm curious about sort of the beginning of this. You said you had the opportunity to get involved with flash briefing. How did that come? Whose idea was it to first of all create a flash briefing for for huffpost? Yes so I wasn't the original host another colleague of mine and Jumped into this but it started about a year and a half ago. You know I think everyone here saw like just as you did that. These smart speaker devices were starting to go mainstream. They were getting more affordable and just everybody was gonNA use them. They weren't exclusive tech anymore. So have post that. Hey It'd be a great idea to develop a flash briefing there are other Competitors in the space already and we thought of we're not there we're not at the table and we're not getting in people's ear so We already had success. PODCASTS in the audio space we have a great podcast called born and raised About the story of Second Generation Canadians we have a great political podcast hosted hosted by Ottawa. Bureau chief out the Iraj Called follow up so this was already a space that we were in and we thought this was kind of another way to show innovation innovation But also kind of build out what news could look like for Huffpost on this emerging platform. So the idea. The splash came up. And I think it's great because it's in our kind of huffpost tone voice. It's not what you'll hear on the other news podcasts. A breaking news flash briefing. That's GonNa it'd be updated hourly or be bringing you the news as it happens. We're going to bring you a differentiated. Tony you're going to hear on our briefing news and lifestyle lifestyle stories and feature stories that you wouldn't hear on any other briefings specially from competitors and ask and I've I've listened to it a number of times obviously and It's really well done. It's really well produced. So can you talk a little about the types of things that you cover on foss roofing and maybe a little bit about the production processes. Well yes sure so definitely not doing it alone I have a team would small team at three of us that. Get the briefing out every day. But I think that's what's great. You know a lot of breathing especially news. Briefings are just re purposed radio. That's already being in done spots but really really WanNa make that personal connection so you know my idea. Whenever I'm writing is what would I say to a friend about? What's I've been in the news going on that day and I try to write it in that way and say it in that way too So pretty much. How it works is always keeping an eye on? What's in the news? Here's what's trending. And what kind of great stories recovering on our site and I'm serving it and seeing. What's something differentiated? What's news you can use? What's going on in Canada? Obviously since we're huffpost Canada focusing on great Canadian stories and things we know our audience will be interested in and then I talk with the managing editor of News. News Andrea eighths We go back and forth about. Okay what are the Stories WanNa highlight today. We usually choose to sometimes three depending on how it goes usually choose to you and then I read a script for that keeping in mind. Does this Story have great sound rich. Sound where can I find that. What kind of clips can a US or sound effects? Can I use to really bring up the production even just two minutes. How can I be engaging and half people wanNA make this Part of their routine So I usually read a script and then that gets vetted and then my great CO-PRODUCER AL D'Amato Joins me here in the studio where I'm talking to you from I'm right now And record every day in the afternoon that gets packaged and We get it out every night. We do Six days a week week so we go Sunday to Friday and every morning we hope to have people wake up and listen to it. It's amazing I said I listened to it and the tone is so It is very engaging in and you're going forward but every time I do it really draws me in so I think you're doing a really fantastic the job if al thank you and then I love the way that you bring in the different clips from people. So it's probably one of the reasons to engage in. It is not only your voice all your voices. Great Eight on the on the flash reading but it's got other clips as well and I think that's fantastic. What sort of response have you got from the community or have you had a chance to get much feedback in terms of what people like fuss beefing best aspects that sort of thing? I don't think we've got to really engage directly with people I think you know as you know the It's still a new technology right so it's still kind of an emerging audience that we're we're keeping an eye on You know we tried to Think about okay probably for the holidays. We hope a lot of people got smart speakers as a gift so we tried to kind of release a little promo which you can see on our website that it tells people that hey were out there. Come listen to us And I think it's really trying to get into people's routine in my tagline on the briefing is thanks for making the Huffpost Splash Asha part of your day and that just as much of a thank you for listening at it is a call to action to hey reminder to wake up and listen in the morning or whatever it is. You're doing in your day with us because I think that's one of the things that we that I think especially so interesting about this. Technology is that you know you're making your coffee in the morning. You WanNa know all the news. You can't be glued to his screen. We WanNa take people away from those more traditional which I think are becoming antiquated ways of engaging with the news news And you don't even need to be on your screen anymore. You can just be listening and get to work and already know what the water cooler topics are. You could know a a bit about what's going on in the housing market with the economy These days with Meghan Harry with the corona virus. Or whatever it is that you need to know about We you kind of try to get you covered or something different. Maybe that's not in the news cycle but something that we as huffpost think is important to cover That's something different. Let me bring to the table. Two hundred percent. You basically took the next question out of my out of my mouth. There was like why is it valuable but I think I agree with you. It's the new technology where people can develop intimate relationship on a regular daily basis. Is something that you don't see too many other mediums right now now. What is the rest of your team? Think about the spring. They all on board with this did you. was there some skepticism. When you first started it I have made all of them in by a smart? They're on board with a like it or not. Yeah exactly they're getting onboard. Just like everybody else. I know I know you know what it's funny whenever I need a little voice clips I I get them to come in and join me too so I think they're really on board I think they're uh They see it as you know something innovative that Not only it were doing but something innovative that the company is behind right and I think I'm really lucky especially I have post editor in chief. Andrei Lau is totally supportive of this and yeah it takes a little bit of time to every day write a full script with produced clips and Have Somebody edited and and get it up. It's it is. It's not a small undertaking even though you're working within two to four minutes to produce high quality to four minutes take set takes a bit of time so having the support of them and my studios Manager to really helps to get the product out there and allows us to play around with format and things like that sure sure. Is there a particular reason that you decided to do six days a week or is that just kind of the way it turned out or yeah. I think that we From what I understand the the listeners. Sunday to Friday just seems because we're kind of going releasing in the evenings and Ito from what we understand people are listening more in the mornings so therefore we go Friday evening. We kinda get The Saturday morning running Saturday and Sunday morning. So it's almost like we have a weekend episode And our weekend episodes are are different. Usually Monday Monday to Friday. I it's more or less me giving you the two stories mixed in with clips. But on Sundays. We always do Acuna with one of our reporters to get deeper dive behind the scenes into one of their features So that's a bit sometimes a little bit of a longer longer episode but it kind of brings in Brings in another voice into that and I think overall everybody sees it as just a great way to promote all the great work. That's being done on the site too. So so you know we ask people we have called action within it. Hey if you want more information I know we just gave you Kinda the gist of this story. Check it out on our huffpost candidate APP. Check it out on huffpost dot. Let's see a and hopefully peaking people's interest into a topic they want to go learn more about Because there's so much out there either Written stories are video stories and Yeah we've got a chance to play Around with format a lot which I think has been interesting especially in the last year. That's something when when I started his host last Last July so not even a year. But it's felt felt like a lot a long time In a good way I really wanted to play around format so Something we did that we Thought well was during the election because election was a big pillar of coverage for us here we had our follow up election update. So we used kind of the branding from the politics. PODCAST mention to you and every day we spoke to one of our reporters others Politics reporters who was covering the election and got to find out from the ground. What was going on with them So every day we kind of did. Here's some of the you know the news and here's an update from the campaign trail which was really great and was just like another way to bring another voice? Listen and bring you again an election update in our tone of voice and in the huffpost way of covering the election. That's great that's great and I. I think if you had also mentioned to me that you had tried to do some type of engaging Like quiz with your listeners. Or something like that. Can you talk a little bit. So we didn't uh we hadn't done it as a skill we operate on both Alexa and Google home so we when we are Doing our briefings. We have to think about how how people are engaging on both the devices. Sure we're looking to go into more interactive actually call and Response News Quiz for this this year. So that'll be coming up and great talking to you Terry about that. 'cause I know with crack the code. That went really well for you so definitely inspired by that and there are a couple of other competitors. Who are doing news quizzes here as well so I think it's a really interesting space? But yeah what I did On December thirty first of last year was just did a little quick five question news quiz Of the year that was and more multiple choice we put some sound effects in there. You know the jeopardy the the jeopardy song so people could play along I think that was just a fun way to interact and You know new think of look. Oh it's something families can play together are well making dinner or just something educational I think that's great and something that we're going to be looking to do this year for sure. Yeah I I love that I think You know just getting back from project voice was speaking with some people about the future of marketing in this space and one of the topics that came up with not so much having being an adult. An idea and talk to you about that because I know you guys have done a little bit of sponsored flash briefings as well but also creating a an experience for the listener where the the sponsors actually part of the experience with being part of the quiz part of the game or something like that so that that. I think that's very exciting. I think that's sort of a new new wave looking at it but getting back to the other thing I just mentioned so you did have some success with having a sponsor for your roofing. Can you talk about that as well. And how that worked. Yes sure. Yeah Yeah it was. It was really exciting. We had Volkswagen as a sponsor come on For a campaign Kinda the last Half of of the year last year and we thought it was really exciting that you know a company like Volkswagen would see the value in advertising on this kind of new you in emerging platform right because really I think it's a really innovative way. And it's forward thinking of them want to do that so you were really excited. Did and They passed a couple models. They wanted to advertise So you know they Send us a bunch of of called actions and we integrated them into our briefing right off the top so that you know if you're listening to the briefing you couldn't miss it So yeah it was. It was a really league exciting to see that brands are kind of thinking ahead of where a new spaces they can reach listeners and they thought it was Great Way to get into the homes of people and kind of find a new way to Interact and you're getting a valuable product at the end of. Ah which is a briefing. We hope so absolutely and I'm curious just from a personal level with those sponsor ads. Were those recorded pieces. Were those written or those said in your voice And how long were those. Yeah exactly so they Which who which was great of them? they understood the length of a briefing. You know is very short So we appreciated that. They kind of sent us. Maybe one or two sentences and They were fine that it was read in my voice the host so that really helped make it sound integrated into the whole briefing. You know you didn't have bought you didn't have somebody else or like a prerecorded it'd sound Off The top and then then to me I think I appreciated them letting me read it because it just makes it sound more authentic. I think think No I and I totally. That's really really good. Are Your old flash briefings cataloged anywhere on your site or people go back and listen to the old ones or once. They're done donner they. Done Gone No. Everything is on our site and for people who don't yet have smart speakers. I don't know who you are. You should get one but if you don't have one yes. Everything is uploaded On our site every day so the entire archive of of every single one. Is there That you can find it has It plays a video actually and it has a picture of Both the smart speakers there and kind of the Huffpost home screen and One of the other things that you'll find if you WANNA go back to have listen was a different format Kinda the end of the year last year I wanted to do Top top stories of the decade back So for every day the last ten days of the year We released a look back at the year. You're that was from. Two thousand. Ten onwards had an interview with Canadian newsmaker of that year. So you'll see those pop up on the side as well. I talked to John Montgomery The Olympic gold medalists skeleton. I talked to a family who you know Lahser home and had to move in the Fort Mac. Fires Talk to One of our politics reporter is about you know Trudeau Twenty fifteen versus today. Okay and a whole bunch of other great Canadian stories. So that's something uncle to check out that lives on site to that's wonderful and I think that's a very wise thing I've been telling people encourage people to do that to that. When you create the effort goes into it that I know some people aren't necessarily putting them on their sites but I think that's wonderful because then people can go back and listen to it and it also helps with search search optimization so on so that's great wonderful well thank you so much? Is there anything that you can share in terms of any other future looking ideas with this technology or for what your plans are as simply just to kind of keep going and doing what you're doing. Now how do you feel about. I think You know I think that the idea of Adding skill like news quiz and thinking of other skills thousand. The branded opportunities here are really exciting and to already say you know we have a brand. That was interested in seeing this as an emerging platform. is really exciting exciting as As a way to get other brands to maybe say hey you know that's a platform I could advertise on two and I think it's just kind of bringing more valuable content That people need and them seeing our brand is like. Hey you know huffpost really does add Some meaning and. I'm getting something from them that I don't see on other news sites news outlets or from other flash briefings and just trying to keep that differentiated approach and keep that tone so we definitely WanNa play with formats and and innovate As much as we can. And just as you know with all your hundreds and hundreds of episodes consistency and see I think is really the key so We try to make sure that everything is is consistent and just keep raising that level of production because I think you still need need to inform entertain inspire people even if you just have two minutes or if you have two hours if you can gain people's attention and a market of media that is just so clustered right now That's that's always my goal to to make it meaningful and just tell great stories. Yeah well that's really well said inspire entertain An otherwise engaged. I think that's the key so Thank you so much for spending time. Big congrats to you and to your team. I think think yours is one of the best produced ones that I've heard like hands down. Thank you thank you and so yeah I just. It's wonderful one encourage all listeners to go and check it out and enable the flash briefing so Tell us a little bit about where can listeners. Go what's the name of it. And how can they otherwise connect with you learn more but what. You're doing sure so. We are called the huffpost candidate splash and You can find on both are smart speakers as I said Sunday to Friday. So please check us out. We have a great site tough post DOT CA. So if you're not already making that a part of your news routine please do and you can find. They have post News also on the huffpost candidate APP. you'll be able to see all the other editions from all around the world there as well. We are on instagram and on twitter at huffpost candidate strict out there too wonderful. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much judge Terry and thanks for everything. You're doing the space to to raise the game for everybody all right. We'll chat against you. Take care all right. Take care there you go pretty cool stuff You need to check out this flash briefing. I've said it a number of times again. You need to check out this. Last briefing Huff Post Canada splash. And and I think it'll be very very impressed with what Amanda and her team has produced the links to what Amanda talked about will be of course on the show notes page which you can access at Al e x a in Canada dot ca slash twelve and again a quick reminder that if you want to produce your own flash briefing. They're not that hard to do And I've got a course that it tells you exactly how to do it and you just go to Flash BRIEFING FORMULA DOT COM all right. Thank you again for Everything that you do northern voice. Thank you for your support and I I will speak to you again very soon take care.
'Profitability in the back half of next year': BuzzFeed CEO Jonah Peretti (and Verizon Media CEO Guru Gowrappan) on their big merger
"Hello and welcome to a special episode of the digital podcast. I'm kelly barbara senior reporter with today. Last thursday we had a big piece of merger news. Come down the pike feet announced. It was acquiring huffpost in all-stock deal. That would also give verizon media a minority stake in buzzfeed. We wanted to hear from both sides of the transaction. So are bringing you to interviews in one episode. i. I'll be interviewing buzzfeed. Ceo jonah peretti. Who had actually co-founded huffpost before founding buzzfeed and after that my podcast go host. Tim peterson will interview huffpost seller bryson media group. Ceo guru guru pon the first high jona. Welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us. So i think what's largely different about the two brands is that buzzfeed will be profitable this year Thanks to a really strong third and fourth quarter But huffpost has been losing money over the past few years And i know it took a while before buzzfeed was able to get out of the red and get into the black itself but i was curious like well this acquisition end up dragging buzzfeed back into the red at all. I think it's clear that huffpost brand and audience is bigger than its business. And that's a huge opportunity for us. It gives us the ability to start to layer in the things that have made buzzfeed profitable this year. You layer that across across the huffpost business So our commerce business is really taken off our licensing business we are deal with lionsgate and some of the other studio work doing is very promising for the future. I think there's a lot of that that to benefit huffpost business and so by taking huffpost into the buzzfeed ecosystem and by applying all the things we've learned over the last few years to as we've diversified and growing business is going to help us make huffpost into a a profitable acquisition. Got it okay. So you're optimistic van that you can turn huffpost around the same way that buzzfeed has been able to achieve profitability The past couple years then You know i. I'm curious like where some of the first investments than that you're looking to make into huffpost You're a couple of licensing deals that you have going on at buzzfeed is. Is that an area that you're optimistic about as well. We're going to spend a lot of time talking to the team. They are getting a sense of how they do what they do. The different parts of their business. But it's clear that For example our affiliate commerce is one area where where buzzfeed has grown a lot in the last few years. And it's something that huffpost is just starting and so i think we celebrate accelerate that business considerably So that's one one area. I think that This do businesses potentially interesting. I mean a lot of cases. It's things that we're already doing at buzzfeed on the business side and now having another brand and having a bigger audience is going to is going to be you know a big opportunity for us. Also just having more distribution you know having we. We already had a lot of success. selling natives ad products video ads. display programmatic. We've seen growth in creator program. Swear our our talent is making media for for advertisers and brands. So all of that type of work we've done would naturally flow into the ad inventory and distribution on. Got it i guess. Do you have a time line at all in mind of when you're hoping to get huffington post huffpost profitable or is that kind of like a way and see once. The teams are fully integrated and whatnot. I think it'll be break. Even next year for the full year could even be profitable next year. And and certainly. There's a strong possibility of profitability in the back after next year. It'll take a little. It'll take a little while for the first. Six months of of integration will probably kosta some some revenue as were switching over to the front from the bryson media advertising stack and admin support and all of that and and adjusting. But i think once we once you've done that and we've completed the integration. We should see immediate results. Oh wow that's awesome. And i know you've said this before that this wasn't like the long connor like a long term goal of coming back and owning huffpost. You know fifteen late fifteen years later But i'm curious about how much of buzzfeed's model was i. Guess based on what you learned while building huffington post And you know what you did differently to buzzfeed Kind of helped differentiate the two in the beginning of things. One thing i learned over the years is that the way brands are built has really changed on the internet. It used to be that you would try to build a brand that everyone spire too and that would people would look up to the brand and say i wish i wish i could have that product and aspire to the two that elevated brand and on the internet. It's less about serving brands and more about the brand serving people it's flipped. And so you look at some of the greatest. Internet brands like amazon. They did very little traditional brand marketing early on and just focused on serving the customer and giving them faster shipping and giving them more packing more things into prime and over time that resulted in a really strong brand. But they weren't. They didn't have the traditional brand builder types. Who were trying to elevate the brand so when you look at buzzfeed and huffpost they both had. They both are the most iconic brands on the digital internet brands Buzzfeed huffpost hasty. All three of those brands were built the same way which is instead of asking people to be loyal to the brands. The brands were loyal to the people and we continually serve. Our audience looked at data. About what matter to our audience combined. Creativity with with a data analysis to to discontinue surprise and serve the people who were consuming reading engaging with buzzfeed with huffpost tasty. And if you look at brand metrics that ended up resulting in creating the strongest. you know internet media brands Even though we weren't taking this brand. I approach with like. What's this brand that we want everyone to follow and aspire to And so to me. That's that's one thread that goes through. You know these these Really four big brands. Buzzfeed news buzzfeed huffpost and tasty. They all have just been obsessed with the with the readers obsessed with the viewers obsessed with the audience and making sure that their what's most important and that we serve them and that that's really the north star for all four of those brands. Yeah absolutely I guess kind of going off of that. I know huff post has really strong Like seo position and they have a lot of Know good strategy when it comes to search buzzfeed definitely more rooted in like social in in that kind of amplification. there Is are you gonna be at all. I guess looking take strategy that huffington post or huffpost has with That seo side of things in in moving that over to the other three brands that are in the buzzfeed portfolio. So you know. In the early days huffpost was really a lot about search and social had matured a enough to actually build a brand or build a media property off of social. And that's also one of the reasons that we got a slow start. We were so focused on social but facebook and twitter. We're still small. And you know we had to wait till the social web matured before buzzfeed could really gets get scale and huffpost was had a big front page and a lot of search traffic and so huffpost gal got bigger earlier because it was it was playing in the spaces but today really post is great at social. They have huge social handles. They get a lot of traffic across in a facebook and twitter and other social platforms. So i don't think they're the companies. Are that different right now. In terms of of of of and social and by the way bus it's gotten better at at search as well in a lot of people search search buzzfeed and we even see a lot of people put the buzzfeed branded with searches because they want to get us buzzfeed in about a certain topic which to me is a much stronger signal than than search. Traffic just happens to find your site when people are actually putting your brand into google because they want your version of something. That's a great a great sign and we see a lot of that busby now. Yeah for sure That's awesome and i wanted to go back. You kind of highlighted these four core brands now buzzfeed buzzfeed news tasty in huffpost. And so i mean it seems like you have Identified these like really strong standings in the portfolio. And you also have a bunch of other verticals as well. There's bring me there's Cocoa butter and upcoming have your sex and love vertical. So you've created these very strong presences in these different topic areas i guess. Do you feel like the buzzfeed portfolio was ultimately satisfied. Now that you have this acquisition. Or i guess. Is there still room to grow from here. Well i definitely gordo strong position with these big pop brands that can be umbrella. Brands that really reach everyone on the internet and their babies few areas where we could add more but for those those kinds of brands. But but we're in a good position. In terms of broad pop brands that reach a wide audience but still have voice and still have means something and still stand for something. And that's that's hard to do and it takes a long time to build brands like that. Which is one of the reasons that you know. I'm excited about a post. Because you know. Fifteen years is a long time and that brand has been built over over a decade and it's hard to just build something like that overnight but i also think there's opportunity for more niche brands and the ones you just mentioned are are examples of buzzfeed and And good fall and you know there's a bunch of other smaller brands that really targeted niche audience. And i think there's opportunities to add more of those both by creating them you know we. We started a lot of a lot of these brands started ourselves we built. We didn't buy tasty. We bill tasty same with with cocoa butter or paralegal. Org good fall or nifty. So there's a lot. I think we can do to create and build new branson convert neat verticals Or or maybe not even niche in some cases but just focused on a particular Passion point or or identity group and then having these big umbrella brand allows us to promote an amplify the smaller brands and so one of the reasons that that advertisers would love to partner with us that they could do a deal with us and partner with a creator or a smaller brand but then the full benefit of the bus network. and soon they'll get full benefit of the huffpost network as well. So if you do a good partnership with us and about sort of healthy living you can also amplify that across the tasty you know network and so you're you're getting of the best boat. You're getting a brand that focuses on a on an area that you are passionate about and has a passionate audience and then also getting the benefit of our larger scale and distribution and so i think there maybe opportunity to both build and by smaller brands that that would naturally fit into our portfolio. That can be amplified by the of mega brands. That we have. Okay got it. So it's this mega brand and then smaller vertical brands versus like i guess when nifty ever be considered a mega-brand Within the buzzfeed portfolio. Or is that you know something that you like to keep in its own. I guess category underneath buzzfeed to again amplify it Like is there any opportunity for those brands to eventually grow up to the level of the mega brands. Or it's definitely possible. I would say that sometimes when people talk about building brands they think. Oh if you invest in a brand. You can build it into huge brand. Generally the things have become mega brands have to catch fire his very particular way. And it's very hard to do and it's not about someone who's an expert in branding or hiring agency and then making something into a mega brand You know so you know. We didn't initially plan for tasty to be. You know a mega brand. That it is now where you know. It's it's the majority of people know tasty and the favorability of tasty is so high people love tasty but it started as a small little niece brand and and it just caught fire and got bigger and bigger a bigger now has one hundred million likes on this main page on facebook and and tens of millions on other sub pages and is spread across the world. We have tasty japan. We have tasty and lots of other other markets and so tasty is at you. Know became a mega brand because the consumer loved it and the consumers engaged with it and it crossed different boundaries and people from different walks of life in different interests all started to gravitate towards it so when we saw that we expanded built a tasty out the tasty website now have every recipe shop bowl was walmart and the tasty app and so when we see that signal in that energy in the brand is really building. We connect we connected to a bunch of different areas now. There's a line of cookware. Because we we sense that real excitement from a broader group or broader audience other brands. They don't cross over like that they might. They might develop a really passionate loyal audience. That loved the brand. But it's for them. It's not for everyone else. And it doesn't cross over to become part of pop culture in the same way or part of mass culture in the same way so we try to. We try to build brands with a real strong awareness of the consumer and what matters to them and some brands get that escape velocity and become something that is just broadly. Relevant across a big swath of culture and other brands are really but ended up becoming more about loyalty and closeness of connection. And so we we try to manage them. Appropriately got it. Yeah that makes sense I guess going off of that and this is a question that a few people like my colleagues. And i have been talking about a little bit. But i guess within the lake mega brand scope buzzfeed news and huffpost. Have i guess a competitive set within them within those areas. I guess have you thought about at all possibly merging those to To create one core group or is like the huffpost brand on its own like enough to. I guessed keep standing out. Yeah is are merging those two on the horizon at all. I mean the way. I communicated this the team as i said i wanted. How post to be more huffpost and buzzfeed news to be more bus newsy. There's a huge need for trusted news brands. That are not behind pay walls. That can be can distribute quality information across all platforms. And i think huffpost and buzzfeed news are both iconic brands. That deserve to be standalone brands. And we will focus without postal be growth a host friend and not to try to merge it with with buzzfeed. We i think if they'd smashing them together into into some kind of merge news brand would weaken both of them and so some cases there may be competition for scoops or stories or things like that but the way that they serve their audiences is pretty different and will continue to evolve Buzzfeed news has been very very scooped driven over the years Huffpost has has a bigger front page has been away that a lot of people orient themselves in the world Reading the front of post is a way to say. You know what's going on what matters how does affect me. How does it affect my life. this sort of narrative flow of of what's happening in the world is has been you know bigger part of have posted the splashes of the front page things like that even even a lot of the individual articles have have have a little more of that point of view And also you know it's changed and evolved over time but but You know tough post has been more of a of a left-wing brand over the years and buzzfeed news has been more of a millennial brand over the news and there's obviously a lot of of Overlap in those two things. Because millennials tend to be more they vote democratic at a higher rate like that But they're not the same thing you know and the sort of millennial values that have animated buzzfeed buzzfeed news Are not perfect. Overlap with some of the more progressive values that have animated have post So anyway. I don't want to overstate any of this. Because part of you know we don't we don't We own huffpost yet. The deal is should close in a couple of weeks a few weeks. And we're looking for a new editor in chief and a new header way. I've always run. Things is to really empower the people who work for me to help define vision. So it's not you know the the vision for this is not going to be coming from me as much as it's going to be coming from the current team at huffing post plus the new editor chief wherever wherever they come from. Yeah absolutely so you had mentioned that there is this need for Or having options for digital news. That's not pay walled And i know that both Buzzfeed news and havington's post are huffpost. Has this support us. Contribution options And buzzfeed news as more so in the You know donate to us recurring somewhat. But it's usually just like a support. The journalism huffpost plus Offers some things like ad free experiences on the app in other discounts. Here and there. But i was curious. how are you thinking about reader revenue and how it fits into the revenue mix Going forward and i guess. Do you plan to keep the huffpost plus alive or maybe add onto what buzzfeed newses contribution model is at all. It's still too early to say. I think experiment we. We've been experimenting a little bit and membership models. But it's still. It's still really early. I think that at some point in the future. There's going to be interesting members models where instead of paying for content. You're paying for community connection in social interaction. And so there's already a lot of precedent for that with with things like dating apps and certain certain kinds of community apps where you're paying to meet other people or connect with other people instead of instead of paying for content and so there may be some interesting things there that would allow content to be freely available so the broadest possible public across all platforms. I think which is super important role brought role for the news media that has been really lacking where the low quality content is spreading for free and then other more high quality journalism is increasingly becoming locked behind pay walls and subscription models. and so. i think there's a big role for processing half post to reach diverse millennial gen z generation across all platforms without requiring people to log in. I mean when you see a article from buzzfeed news in your social feed or you see something from huffpost you know. I can click that read that. I'm not going to be told that. I've reached my limit on articles. And i think you can build a good business that way as well so you know. Are there other add ons or other ways of generating revenue where people potentially pay because they want a enhanced experience or they want to have more opportunity to connect with with our team or each other. I think there's something pretty pretty interesting there and so were experimenting with it. But it's still it's still early. I would treat it more as are indeed project than as a business got it. Yeah but i did want to get back into the advertising side of things You mentioned that there's The amplification of taking like nifty. And any kind of branded content or advertising and they're able to get amplified across the portfolio And i am curious about how you're picturing huffpost to kind of come into the mix with all of that and How that will impact the ad business because Buzzfeed historically native was like a really big part of the revenue model Sense it's diversified. So there's know more of the display kind of added in there And i i saw that. Direct sales had like double digit growth this year and Display ads the have also increased quite a bit But how complementary are the revenue breakdowns for huffington. Post or huffpost to buzzfeed And i guess is the sales team. They're focused on direct sold advertising as much as your team might be yeah. They haven't focused on direct because there have been part of rising media murray's media. Is you know this massive network that includes y'all oneal and so there's a lot of programmatic advertising and things like that. That's been more their focus and then bundled sales across across all of their their properties. I think a more brand driven direct pitch is going to be something that we'll be able to add for for posts should help that business. You know it's it's a small. Sorry if you hear dogs barking in the background for this is this is the The work from home experiment that we're all we're all doing. It's all just keep rolling with it. We're all used to it by now. It's totally fine. Yeah so. I think we'll be able to. You know to give huffpost a lot more attention. And we able to layer in some of the business lines that buzzfeed has has really started to perfect. That are not yet on part of part of a post okay so To that end like is the sales team For huffpost going to be kind of still dedicated then to huff post and focusing on selling that brand specifically versus I don't know maybe trying to do a centralized model that touches into each of the brands. Our strategy is to be decentralized for editorial so that every editorial brand could have a strong voice and can serve their audience and not Not necessarily worry about is consistent. With what other editorial brands within the company doing i think. That's that's really important. You don't want to have one set of editorial policies and editorial for every brand or else the brand start to lose their swagger and they're vital urgency so we want to make sure that that the huffpost edit team and huffpost brand is very independent and can push their own mission and their own agenda but on the business side. we want centralisation. We're doing a partnership with walmart or we're doing a partnership with another average. Cpg company we want them to get the full benefit of the audience that is on huffpost and on buzzfeed tasty and be able to do whatever makes sense for that advertiser to get the most the most value and so we've seen some of our insurance. Advertisers for example doing audience based advertising will want a older wealthier segment and huffpost out a lot in that in that capacity and so being able to extend what we're doing without a current advertiser onto a new property. That has different. Audience is something that should help us expand our business and benefit and benefit the post business unit. also post team only has three sales people. Yeah associate you know right now. So it's pretty small and so having having a more coordinated business approach. I think is going to help for sure. Yeah that makes that makes sense. And then yeah. I guess the last topic that i really wanted to hit was Like looking at the commerce operations buzzfeed has been doing a ton in that area. Recently recently covered The licensing deals that you did with like a sex toy company and then you're affiliate business has been booming as well I guess on that end of things like do you see and i think you mentioned this a little bit but if you could talk more about like the opportunities and commerce around huffpost and I think right now. They have a pretty large Affiliate offering as well As poking around their site and they have that lake Shopping tab but You know do you see any opportunities for licensing there Whether that's like product lacing licensing or You know other other areas as well. Yeah i mean. I think there's a lot of opportunities. I think there's licensing affiliate. I think we'll be a big opportunity because their audience is really engaged and and there's a big segment of their audiences is affluent and has more spending power so that i think will will open up new types of licensing and product partnerships that may be higher ticket items are higher priced items And overall i think there's just a lot of opportunity. The biggest thing is going to be. How do we prioritize all in all of these opportunities you know so the. There's a bunch of innovative things we wanna do. That will probably be six months six months nine months from now before we get started on them. Because we i have to do all the stuff you know do all the all the basic stuff and get our get our tech and you know saying than getting the teams aligned and getting figuring out all the all the ways that we Know all all gotta do i as some of the basic stuff and and then i think there'll be a lot of interesting opportunities after that to invent new products or new ways of new products. New deals things like that. Yeah got it. And sorry. I did think of one other question My former colleague. Laura o'reilly who's now over at business insider She posted a story today about Staffers concerns about layoffs. Naturally i feel like with any kind of merger acquisition anything like that. There's going to be that concern At this time do you foresee having to do any amount of layoffs for any duplications on my occur especially the centralized kinds of business roles. Or are you hoping at this point to kind of hang onto everyone if you can. Also the way the way that bus got the profitability. Was you know. A combination of more financial rigour and discipline in managing our costs more carefully with Growing our revenue and particularly growing new revenue lines and finding new ways that that we could take this audience. We have this massive super engaged audience and say. Oh you're viewing ads. But maybe you want to actually buy a product or extending into licensing as you've written about and as we were talking about earlier or if we make show using our network to promote that show using ip from from our from our network to to figure out how to cast movie or put up you know or pick a topic to to address in a documentary. You know there's all of the all these these ways that we've expanded our business and so we want to take that same approach with huffington post and saying it's going to be a combination of of having financial rigor with new business lines new revenue opportunities and upside and of course the preference and the best way to to get to profitability is growing revenue and finding new revenue lines. That's always what we look at first and we always take the approach of of trying to save as many jobs and protect jobs as as as much as we possibly can with huffington post. We don't own the business yet. It's closing in a few weeks. We have to talk to a lot of people that we weren't able to talk to when we were when we were contemplating the deal. We have to understand their business where the different drivers are on their business and figure out. How do we do whatever we can to make business a successful and sustainable as possible for the long term. How do we run the business with a lot. More attention and focus than say verizon was able to do it as part of this you know. It was a subsidiary subsidiary of city area. So we can. We can give it a lot more attention a lot more focus and justify doing that. And so that's the that's the next up is to really really get in there and try to understand what's the right way for this business to be successful and thrive in the future And so i certainly would not promised that we would never have you know staff reductions or or things like that Because in this industry is sometimes a reality that that is what it takes to get a business to profitability sustainability on the other hand. I always have a strong preference for finding ways to grow revenue finding new revenue lines focusing on innovation. And and i think there's a lot of upside in huffpost business that that will be able to unlock absolutely. I think that's more than fair. Well that's it for my questions. Thanks again jonah. This is really great. thank you. we're gonna take a quick break here from our sponsor and then my co host. Tim peterson will be onto interview verizon media group. Ceo guru ghorban so stay with us as more and more big tech companies vying to collect your data. It is a challenge to protect your privacy. Proton is creating tools. That give you control of your data. As part of their black friday sale you can get proton mail and proton vpn for up to fifty percent off proton male protects your inbox from surveillance and abuse and proton vpn protects your internet activity on blocks content. And mask your location from the websites you visit. If you select a bundle plan you will get early. Access to proton drive it's end to end encrypted cloud storage service for free. This is protons only promotion of the year. So it is your best chance to upgrade your privacy go to proton mail dot com slash today and get fifty percent off a two year plus plan bundle. That's proton mail dot com slash digital for fifty percents off proton mail and proton vpn. I'm tom peterson. Senior media editor at digital. Today i'm talking with guru guru pon ceo verizon group which owns yahoo will tech crunch and gadget a collection of ad tech tools and the huffington post though not for much longer. We're recording this. On friday november twentieth. After resin media announced that is selling the huffington post to buzzfeed and taking an investment stake in buzzfeed. So lots to talk about. let's get started welcome guru. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us. Hey tim thanks for having me here. So obviously yesterday was a big announcement. Buzzfeed jonah of preti said on the recode media podcast. Yesterday that he had asked for as in media over a year ago if huffpost was for sale and was told no. So what changed. So you know he he. He's right about that. And you know jordan of of would save become friends. Now we've been. We've been talking for a while. I know the change. I would say comes back to both us me and john. I think what is in media and buzzfeed very long-term purpose and mission to and company and one of the things you think about verizon media our core mission is to connect people their passions and part of that strategy is to have trusted content and creative ecosystem of content essentially. And when you think of am then the pillars. That i've talked about many many times has been around trusted. Content connections and transactions which is mainly commerce when look for joan is built and building the buzzfeed ecosystem the way that going deep into journalism and the content creation a lot of that really map to us pretty well and lot of the map. The brand level have post and for us. Our strategy as just laid out was logan. You know in terms of creating an ecosystem and while jonas ginga on what changes. I wanna make sure i. I mentioned this yesterday. Is today when i think about news and our content categories or all. We are growing well and they're investing in them. But i want to see there are certain brands that can grow you better and get that application. And that's where john. I actually in january at c. s. in wegas where we started talking about a broader partnership with buzzfeed. That was the original intention to start off post. You know Became part of the overall not team. Prompt strategy to him and thing that changes one is us being a having taken buzzfeed to is creating a broader strategic partnership where we can bring in you know the cross promote content across both our ecosystems the app platform intuition from our side commerce collaboration a and b our media on five g. bigger strategic partnership with the buzzfeed ecosystem and the third pillars opposed. Where we felt you know the strategy and mission that beulah laid off for huffpost airbus food is headed his so much together It just creates a much bigger ecosystem network change in outages always wall. And when you find the right teams and write alignment you try to do the right deal there. And that's what ended up happening in this case to with all of that. Then why sell the huffington post as opposed to by buzzfeed. Think look as a sad there. Is you know we are If you think about a game where is a media strategy which i just walked through tons of our mission. And you're going to see pillars. I talked about many times. What ends up happening. Is you have a brand like huffpost. Many think about it. You don't put all the energy behind it. You put some energy and what buzzfeed can do is really proteomics energy behind it. So that makes a big difference in the growth trajectory. I love phoned lead companies because you can create so much momentum and also joan. I was one of the co founders of huffpost so we would rather partake in the gold from outside and help them in water form. That's why we created the strategic partnership so the wavier participating is more like. Hey you should have independence. You should keep growing loose in any way farm and it's created because strategic partner where we are with you in the journey either we are taking your content putting our ecosystem or you were taking our continent putting in your ecosystem our units tack. Which is we are. One of the largest independent ads tech are partnered with commerce creating new experiences to a are so that is a much better long-term view rather than saying okay. Let's make it part of it because you know we have enough product. Right now focused on to drive gould within our ecosystem okay. So let's talk about those other components of the deal because as you said this isn't a straight sale. There's more of a relationship established here. There's contents indication component and an advertising arrangement. Let's start on the content syndication. Does that just mean buzzfeed articles and videos will appear on yahoo. Aol in gadget tech crunch and vice versa. Other very simple level. Yes when you think about content from buzzfeed tasty buzzfeed news in huffpost swell will be syndicated across our ecosystem in touch today. About nine hundred million monthly active users and vice versa wages buzzfeed also syndicate or content. Take the ecosystem tech cruncher. All the other brands have be have content across in science. Based on where the relevance and the one other sub part of that is all to you might in the next gen experiences which is a separate item but really tight to content distribution is partner on this. Aor formats where we will co create so of these exponential content leveraging our that is a va marceau platform and gave them access to get a small okay on the content syndication sites. How will browsing media group and the buzzfeed be making money from that contents indication so tight. That is the Two aspects of revenue right one is the advertising on model and the other is commerce so think about buzzfeed Putting its content in there in. You know it's almost like a of classic qualities. Apply dealer is apply. Partnership dealer publisher. Deal where we have a rev share on the ads that go on that particular page or whatever traffic. We send out the publisher and publish publish a relationship and then same on the commerce brunt Where v have you know. Buzzfeed does quite a bit of commerce. Been on the journey now for two years as well on condom commerce defeated commerce laundry were being also and are logged in nail Email ecosystem commerce as well. So there's going to be lavished in their commerces more. Take depending on. What kind of deals we have so we have share since it's a ruptured deal Essentially dan any traffic be sent to them in a what. Ads running off granada. There's a rupture belong. Got you control ad sales. When contents appearing on your properties they control it on. There's that's correct. And for their property. As i mentioned we are one of the largest independent ad stack full full omni channel ads. Tackle anything kabar. Dsp espn all the different formats cider connected tv. And all of that would actually also going to power some of the buzzfeed ads and arguing. Our scale and depth on the demand side that we bring to the government today. Our fox Apple if you think about several other publishers. We are the ones powering a lot of the ads them. So this is gonna be where we are also going to help buzzfeed ecosystem powering ads tech us. Wall okay yeah. I wanted to get into that. Because i imagine there's an ad tech components of the advertising arrangement. 'cause you'll even this may be outdated information but i'm pretty sure buzzfeed has been a google shop they've been on google s s p. So how does resins at tech. Now work into this deal with buzzfeed. Think at a high level think about at least the Indicating content those pieces. We are going to be powering. The ads those pages so it doesn't it doesn't have to go. And i don't have all the details on his to your buzzfeed's relationship with google and then also huffpost has an example right now. Vivid powering adds enough. We'll have those today part of our ecosystem that will continue and it goes into the buzzfeed ecosystem as well so lot of that or with it. And then when you think about our sales team on the demand side as an example will be also able to sell buzzfeed huffpost as part of any of the premium publisher kind of packaging as well so it will always offered in parallel right now And and we will be doing multiple passes well or we can start testing on more. Traffic will and see however we perform taking more but the cutting payments take on big system. Traffic of your syndicating. That's when we'll start powering including huffpost on them. Will bill from okay. Got it and in agency executive. It's spoke to. You mentioned that one of the things that huffpost had brought to the table for advertisers was presence data so like with this arrangement will razan status. Still be able to be used for ads that are sold on huffpost and the broader buzzfeed. No look i mean. I think we we follow very So think about two things. I think verizon data as one bucket america media date has the other bucket so when is a meter outrider within compliance and user consent. The media out of the data will be applying. You know when you think of our targeting way flav. Somebody's coming into buzzfeed as a consumer Huffpost page why. Don't we do on our ad side using data which doesn't include the but is in kannada. Cut us on a user level which we don't use today either. Use aggregate level eventing so on the horizon media side. If you think about the nine hundred million on the active that i can get data on our products to be have to first party. Data have ws for ad tech today. S while so battle chancellor or if you're doing any of the ad integration for buzzfeed or anything they're being targeting not the carriers out of it doesn't rule so demonizing media side that we do today will continue our still where bus will have the access like of first party being a good publisher partner with us as i said. We do that with a lot of other publishers as well so that leveraged inhabiting the garage media ecosystem. Why is it that the carrier data it doesn't transfer over 'cause it seemed like with telecom giants building up their ad tech stacks acquiring media companies. It seemed like the whole picture was the wireless customer data the media properties and then the ad tech in the middle. That fuse them all together. And you have something that can compete with google and facebook. Yeah look a we as verizon made of very very thoughtful and early call on the sooner. At least i know since i've been here two and a half years or so. Where burglary clear that. If you think about verizon's core pillars of be top level as we operate as a brand is trusted and part of the trust creation. The behalf with our consumers today is your data and what we do is we. We approached of utmost privacy on the carrier side so it's not about taking that a nodding ads. They're coming in for different expedients. Their subscription model their bank for it and there was an expectation. They have on privacy in what we do with that and most of that is not the add model. So that's a call be made up front saying that's not something we want to put an indoor ad tech and what. Bmg has this first party data so does a very conscious choice taught food choice for reset. You're not going to bring in your you know you're right. There's a lot of tears and talk. About how much did they can help in in all of that but be the good news for us because we have a strong first party if you think about the ecosystem the aol ecosystem. Lot of uses similar level of In a rich data think about you know as we think about matching retargeting again with users consent that's sufficient for us as we offered in this world and they're isan rightly so for us at the top level. We need to make sure we maintain our brand under the brand into the brand promise which is on trusted integration. So that's been declare is generally following has been working well for us. Okay i want to get back to the strategy for verizon media especially in light of this deal and especially like looking at the content side your content portfolio because you still have hail and yahoo but you also still have tech gadgets. Could you help me better. Understand like the distinction. You're making here and selling huffpost to buzzfeed but then keane tech crunch and gadget or are you planning to keep those two. Yeah look they are very core part of the ecosystem so when he started thinking about this. You almost wanna look at. Where do we have within our core system. where can the operate do have unique arts and unique content safe. I think about that karan's and in gadget as an example. That's where you need. We don't make any other property within the system doesn't create the same content we tested audience. We created that Decades is a great example. That on yahoo finance go hand in hand together in terms of the category of consumers Touchy you think about people looking for start up. And a lot of the technology news at the same time. People looking at stock and following the stock market companies. That kind of abroad segman. They're all fairly aligned. But it's two different. We don't overlap much. I think what he started thinking about our ecosystem. We focused on colored. Few big categories starting news sports financing of entertainment. And most of these things. That many have lifestyle. I would say kind of the bigger ones updates on the content condensate. All of this fits into that world huffpost also squarely fit into that world. I think for us when you think about buzzfeed and why this made sense The the idea was busted gets Again it's universally known brand with significant scale and audience complementary to it so many think about what buzzfeed brings to table. We have this model gives us an access to much bigger audience when you think about buzzfeed and be. Can we also have yahoo news as an example so one way to think about as we have uniqueness in our strategy and our content that view own and then we create on top of network of ecosystem partnership we have today partnership with new york times business insider how you name it right we all of these indicating karmic though are ecosystem so we think about. How can we create the best. Most doerr said of ecosystem in those key. Category condom categories. And where do we have uniqueness or where do strength today you wanna maintain back in terms of audience uniqueness and we can be multiplies. How does not of uniqueness tears but what buzzfeed gave cooperation to actually accelerate that unique s you and more and the good news here as we still have access to off stride still be content is still syndicated that bettendorf ecosystems who are not losing that i think what it does tink tink more from a framework of just help them grow faster and achieve that goal because buzzfeed huffpost have similar kind of growth trajectory vision we upload for broader we would rather operate as an ecosystem and some of the ones that we have. Today they're more unique to us because there is nothing else creating something like that. Okay so but i mean. There's yahoo news. That's pretty general. Interest finance relatively interest yahoo sports. I guess swear. I'm not being denser. Hopefully but i'm just not understanding. No so if you think about a game you take who uses an example yahoo news is you know we produce say ten percent of the content is ours. Ninety percent of consciousness syndicated When you think about finance and technology and that bucket take y'all fines check crunch and engaged in that bucket again. In aggregate produce actually less percent of conduct we actually syndicate a lot of content. That comes into us so in that world tech runs for us in many ways is more unique at feeds into it and we don't we can't find that kind of conduct anywhere else. Executor leader. That's one point. Second point is also on the premiums. So one of the things you've gone deeper into at least last eighteen months into subscription model premium. We lost yahoo finance premium. Which has been doing really really well. This year Be lol to launch tech contracts crunch which is a premium version of texas. While so a lot of that is. I gained frigging to our strategy. Moving into premium products and premium offering different category. That's why comparing huffpost with little bit. Apples oranges in a way and comparing huffpost buzzfeed. There is a much stronger alignment still get access to it. So i would say. Strategies are on aggregating and owning some niche content. And that's what you're looking at. When you think of our tech gadget that really enhances our subscription offerings. And where we can't have that scale in a way where we can partner to give you a bigger scale in this case buzzfeed at how posted ecosystem. We wanna go and do okay. Is there a part of that that you don't wanna be owning the content creation you'd rather be in the content syndication game. I think you have to look at us. As a sad were. Part of that is. We will never be in a position to create ninety percent of our content. Because if you think about yahoo other state. Yahoo is an example yahoo today on early on from when her you know twenty five years now Its core has been about allegation right. If you think about yahu owned some core content but a lot of it aggregation differentiation for us comes from what kong create. So that's where it's a mix of both so you will own a good amount of premium subscription. Let our high quality content. So that's going to be part of the strategy but a lot of big part of our strategy is also syndication are aggregation which we do as a set behalf from time to name it less feed and huffpost all's as a partner so i don't think it's one of the other The way i think is you need the breadth of content for sure and asserted meters. You wanna have debt. That's what so that's where by their own in those cases of ugandan de performance. You gotta with huffpost though also subscription business right. Yes we had we. We tested it out. I would say late last year Most of the subscription there with ended up being you have a free subscriber. You're pretty much logging in talking about what you like and you know. Becoming a follower paid model was not really promoted a lot within that because there's no conduct differentiation been paid The only difference was you are a member of a more deeper exclusive club. And he gave you more parks rather than more exclusive content even think about our other subscription model where we've been focused on creating lot of premium content tech crunch extra conscious. Same way you think about Yahoo finance premium. Use your lot of content much deeper for retail investor. Why couldn't that be applied to huffington post. Though we never we never started. That journey huffpost strategy was not that at all for us to do that. In terms of going and building the audience base was not that either. The artist base in half boats were more about. Let's give access to all the condom. There is no differentiation. There was little yards target. If you look at buzzfeed is also similar When you think about it that's part of the reason is narrow applied to it. Okay i guess on part. I'm not understanding stand up. The subscription business doesn't work off the bat why not make a attempts to adjust it or was it. By that time you had the meeting with jonet already looking to offload huffpost doesn't make sense to invest in it. No i again again. I think meeting meeting joinaaa was lottery. Interest bus speed and we could do together with buzzfeed in that was evil intent hunting huffpost kinda made it even bigger if you will What i would say. Yoda understand migrating into a subscription model. Anything about a consumer journey. Those are not easy journeys There are certain categories which are easy to easier. I wouldn't say he's he's easy. But when we talk about yahoo finance and the finance premium that is enough utilities that he can think about him in of deep content that he can think about that. Automatic air consumers already wanted and we saw that when we talk to them and when we do user studies and manure testing few things we saw that natural journey when you take news a product you either. The extreme end of you have to think about new york times or in a wall street journal. Some of that bucket away on the business side and going that deep which we are. Not if you think about us more in that more broad-market market news and for us. We tested it and to go more deeper in that when you start thinking about that. That's a much more a bigger for us. Our right and we said okay. We want to create a membership within half falls. But that's going to be more about you. Having that brian affinity creating the natural huffpost less abbad konkan differentiation For you by want. Every member doesn't matter your free or paid have access to the same content and that has been always the core strategy in on huffpost which is democrat ising conduct. Make sure everybody has access to it so we were not going to that strategy. Big way rather find scale in this case what we find is to buzzfeed because their strategy buzzfeed strategists. Similar thing. okay. You can keep growing this. Make it from two extra acts. We still have access to. So that's why it is a little bit different. Depends on category. What he can do on tech crunch in what he can out finance slightly different than what you can do on. Apple's has got it huffington post wasn't profitable. Why was it so hard to bake a profit to turn a profit with huffington post pain. I'm not gonna comment on the financial seeming of you've never disclosed zone huffpost or yahoo finance anywhere to go to be very honest right. I would say the biggest thing. Let's go back two and a half years and i'm gonna talk at an aggregate level Because via as i said we don't disclose anything hotpots by itself or any other brand la de betak crunch me of that one of the things that the media business or all was media business really being dependent on the add model. And then if you didn't have scale it's hard to garner the yield that you can think about scannon quality of audience than you think about the yield. It's always hot right. You need to have a minimum amount of team as think about creating quality content or syndicating and maintaining a property right. There's minimum you can't do it a sudden level below otherwise you're not going to have good quality audience in that model one is companies had the wall in terms of business model. That's why for us. These two and a half years back. We started on the journey saying we'll Content which is our top of the funnel and what consumers comp was forced to engage with us and get inspired a lot of this content. And then we wanna could come in communities or connections in some of these key eagles. How post was one of them. Right tech crunch yahoo finance yahoo mail young sports anything go. Fantasy wanted to clear that brand affinity end connections are people can create their kind of small group led people playing fantasy football or any of that and then you have loosened that that was going through transactions. So if you come in. You're reading a lifestyle article or travel article and then the next evolution of that is okay. I want to go buy a packet summer or reading a particular Either an address from something on celebrities wearing outweigh tons act. And by that. Or i'm in yahoo. Mail allow grocery shopping. Grocery shop with them walmart so really converting that inspiration transaction so part of it is you're moving from nar distant ad model you're moving into also transaction which is commerce and then the other solution is going into much deeper premium condoms subscription. So for us. How do you convert a company in the profitable model for us as be took pap which we need to Go into new. Growth factors charges being ads have subscriptions and have commerce engines action. That's what you've done size at ecosystem you've done well. In view data tell you categories that out mention huffpost in news and all the same categories where be publicly disclosed like as an example. You take a single. You've grown like our news. Category by five percent on your this is during co that now the revenue rights so that talks to a category. What is done well. And i think that's been our focus again as i said i will tell you. Have posed by itself is But at an aggregate level we are seeing that growth and momentum because we have gone invested in you. Go to the actors a hassle strategy for media compensated. I think when. I think about huffpost and buzzfeed. Now they also have similar strategy bit more deep on the news awarded and also younger younger demo. Anything about buzzfeed in the target audience. They have which is great. We love that. That's a gap. We have us. And i think buzzfeed bring staff to our table. Think about content syndication and what we can do that as raw Does commerce strategy workflow for a news publication. If you have it comes down to how you're part of experience right because if you are coming in all of this comes to water business user experience at personalization. If i am reading an article as i mentioned in let me i am reading. Something about bali and people are traveling today or codification something you know whatever you in two percent of users who are reading the next thing they're doing is going on searching about the destination or going into one of the travel sites and buying a ticket but guess what happened ten days window. You actually created inspiration now. In many ways i can create a deeply integrated. Click model that i can help. You can work that right there. It works to be down knob. You've done zero to one that you've seen quite a bit of our commerce do really well as relevant. We started about two years back It works it really works the content. But i think the keys comes back to how best opening experience you knew. If it's clunky where people are click through ten different ways and go to multiple sites. You know you lose. The user at some point appeared so much friction and that but if you implement from a product standpoint and take care of their experience yes it does work. why couldn't at work with huffpost with huffpost. We actually with policy. Did i mean we actually huffpost. Was you know we started enough e commerce. A bit actually was one of the leading brands. Which is doing that You know yet been scaled level yet. Because you know we had just started a huffpost if you think about. One of the biggest categories for huffpost is their lifestyle catty. How does did quite a bit of work on parenting and think about how us you mental health. Lot of the vented dewitt's there is quite a bit of a as i think about it. There's a new in a first time mom our first time parents in a how do you. What do you need to buy for your baby. As an example there's lots of deep integration of commerce. You've done that again. You've done morrison an affiliate model which does have communist there. So i wouldn't say did work. I think buzzfeed is done a great job in that category if you think about what. june is. Done homage commerce a big element of their revenue. Right now. that's also what excites me. That huffpost will be much faster track of doing that which we were not able to do yet in terms of scale got it. But now you'll be able to do together with those help us as well. right you can scale. We can leverage or junan demore building swelled for us too. Because we've been much slower on that our side does this crater risks. Though that at some point jonas say okay thanks. You helped us get two point vote. We're going to move on and work with someone else or take this. We'll take it from here. That's the that's the good news. Is you know owning a stake. In buzzfeed ride that gives you being shareholder. I think it creates that much deeper relationship. It was purely commercial only. Then you can always say there is a risk in our buddy you and commercial. What we've done is the multi year partnership so And both of us have debates touch women if he worked together and be to scam each other. If you don't if you don't that so i think we've got enough structure in place to enable us to grow and win and look about this. Altered comes down to relationship and in a partnership that you're creating. That's why i think relationship with john is important or been chatting since january many and at least you seriously about what we do with buzzfeed. That's only gotten stronger. And that's why getting more excited. You know going a working with the founder lead company with. They're going to put everything they can to make sure the successful in same for us the baby so so i think i think icy less less to you know really minimal risk on that. There's always a risk and seeing jordan team on the other side. I'm you and more Confident than proud of what we've struck together. How much of the stick does will is a media heaven buzzfeed. We didn't disclose that not disclosing that but but yes we do have state with that so you have a stake in them which means for you to get something out of that. There needs to be some sort of exit for buzzfeed. What's your vision for a timeline. And when you get a return on your investment again. I think i'll come back to what i started. The started our chadwick which is long-term. You right we reading nod. Yes when you have a stake in it you always think about what value creation will do if you think about rise as an ecosystem way. Take stake in more strategically right. it's less about. Can i in our less avar. it's not about. Can i make ten x money. Because i put today this much dollar. I wanna make more tomorrow. It's more about. Can i grow our ecosystem to our strategies aligned. Do we have a joint vision. And if that if you know hey it's gonna take whatever two years five years. What are the timeframes. That should drive the so. We have not to be very honest. And we've not sat there and said we want to see a return next year now I think what i've till june is. Now it's your time to take this grow and we wanna make sure we are indicating and we're working with you on attitude working with commerce growing our ecosystem bathtub. You measure success. I think if you had to talk again in a year or mets eighteen months. I think the way we should be measuring success as have we both grown sons. Our business engagement the beyond revenue level. What are we doing. Transactions huffpost done in that world has grown classroom. That's all be cut. Speaking of the revenue resumes revenue dropped by seven percent and the most recent corner but that was an improvement over the prior quarter at verizon. Cfo at ellis said that ad revenue actually grew in the court. That's what spurred the lot of that. Is you know the few things one there are if you think about the ad categories for us. Now i'll talk about two sides have declined on the supply side are the key categories that have been doing well to news and finance for us been doing really well as county resort owned and operated on mail as well to a certain extent. Un people have been spending more time online digital growth has been going well the second on the demand side because you also have a big third party business As said you've signed up many new partners and now buzzfeed has also a new partner in that world but the big thing we did on the ad stack on our demand side platform. We went a lot of you in order to format so think about what. We're doing with connected. Tv dish lot of home though. There's a lot of home is now lower than there but it will be going eventually when cohen normalcy returns. So we've been investing in that with future minds but connected. Tv being a great example off the focus you had as well and detroit element to that. A lot of new categories that you focused on take gaming as an example. Entertainment has done pretty well. So that's been going fairly well at least on the site of course travel and some of the retail took ahead early on. They've started coming back up not travel not to that level but he would say retail and commerce has come back fairly well for us to lot of those warden at the garden to it and for us to show a growth on the ad side. And i mean again ad. Revenue grew in the quarter but overall revenue dropped for resume. What we're the shortfalls. We've talked about a little coming back. To shortfall is also in many ways some of the categories when you think about travel travel is generally a big spender. We already had ads of use growing when you think about our forecast and what we were thinking about doing there but we should have had more in a wave traveling some of the key categories but doing well and there was an industry-wide nargess tasks so that impacted us so that's that's not of the tax code related so any segment that was impacted by cohen. That did take so. That's what impacted us and Advertising to believe like the biggest revenue stream right now for resin media. But you have this goal where i believe. It's in the next five years. You want to get to a point where advertising subscriptions and commerce transactions i is a account for equal revenue so like each third What's the current breakdown in what needs to happen to get to that goal of parody. Sure we don't. We don't disclose the segment level today when you think about commerce ads and subscription redo talk about ads the way i would say is we started. We're still early on the journey From the time of these be laid out the vision we've started heavily on subscriptions. You've seen that. We had us established Businessmen became into a while and then be rented the new subscription business think about Yahoo finance premium crunch extra crunch and many other things that we're doing on the subscription model. That's been scanning pretty well. They've all been growing and we're seeing good results there The other bucket onions action side is mainly what commerce so inbox. Commerce has been a big one content commerce content commerce has been the other big categories and then also transaction be entered sports betting Importantly twenty nineteen. you know. now you're in four states with our betting partner mgm. so that's another aspect of it. So what i would say is be focused. Big part of twenty nineteen also twenty twenty investing in these vectors across the urine within ads. Think about connected. Tv and some of the new formats new supply diva's unique for us in that something will investing and as you start thinking about the five year horizon is really getting there so the measure we have today what needs to be too is am my seeing zero to one on these subscription models be launched on the transaction morals relaunch launch. We are seeing today. Watergate's vape paseo one. A lot of these takes Is really continuing to scale that in many ways across our ecosystem and i think what buzzfeed does to be honest ecosystem on commerce. And what do you add formats. It's going to help us. Accelerate some of that too and our approach is going to be all of these two approaches. What is owned and operated or we do within our ecosystem and second is partnership. Because we've always been it's been that makes you always have this working across all media industries in something of a cost cutting phase. We've seen a lot of it at warnermedia. Nbc universal disney buzzfeed had cost this year as well unfortunately fries and has the school to cut you know. Ten billion dollars in cost by the end of next year and again residency. Afo matt ellis said. During last month's earnings call companies not stopping there. We'll get we'll get to the ten billion dollars and then we'll just keep on going. What cost seems like huffpost. You cut costs there. Are there more cost of rising. Media will need to make so look. Commodore matt said in detail. I know you know the teams we are. We have lots of plans ahead of lot. Hobby opt all operate One of the things. I would say think about horizon media in a you've seen had been done a lot of that upfront oats in twenty eighteen. Some maybe twenty nineteen kind of getting to the right level and we've got that right baseline you. The full story for us was mortar rounds. We want to go. The top line with someone. Like buzzfeed in the strategic partnership. That's more important for us in a grand scheme of things. Those are all Cost if you think about. It are a sizable organization on. Think about raisa media And derived new bring in sowed at this point is a great baseline. We've been very very careful about how we hire and how we manage our teams this year. So that discipline has been very important for us because you always do the wrong thing about hiring building big teams ready quickly and then guess what you're managing sometimes the wrong way so we've been very capital way in terms of scaling right no scaling business so we want to what we have today. We wanna be making short. Our top of the funnel lead abuser. Engagement are on the outside. That's going with the base behalf today so in many ways mad talks about this as well is more arounds be producing more in many ways with the teams. We have today. That means you have more partnership can grow. And that's why i keep bringing bus. As a context buzzfeed saddam league just having huffpost within our ecosystem. Suddenly we increased that multiply by buzzfeed because of the partnership. We have right that yes do. We have invested partnership yes for sure went on our side on the product side or on the ads or content of that. But the scale we're gonna see is multiple accident. What would have seen with. Just you know one entity so so i would say it's more about how do we now focus on immigration. How do you focus with the people on girled and which is what you started seeing what he not s well good like oxygen showing some of the key categories like finance abuse. Or have you done this reallocated what we have people to focus on balloons okay. I think that's a good place to any girth much for taking some really enjoyed speaking with you. Thank you so much and thank you. Everyone for tuning in hope. You have a great and safe thanksgiving and we'll talk to y'all soon take a.
HuffPost's Lydia Polgreen on the risk the pivot to paid could create an 'unequal news ecosystem'
"Before we get to this week's interview I want to encourage you to subscribe to one of digitize other podcasts and that is making marketing every week I speak to leaders in media with this podcast and in making marketing surprise surprise. Shrimp attack speaks with marketing leaders. Particularly those with new brands in recent weeks charene sat down with the CO founders of a brand that makes shoes in quarter sizes a CMO of one of the oldest insurance companies in the game. That's metlife and the head of marketing over at one of the most visible brand France. That is quip. That podcast is making marketing. Subscribe now wherever you listen to your podcasts Welcome to the digital podcast I'm Brian Marsden. This week. I spoke to Paul Grain. The editor in chief at Huffpost Lydia join what was then called huffing. Those three years ago after Clearspan at the New York Times we spoke about how huffpost differentiates crowded news market the case for keeping news free and why news. Publishers need to think beyond impeachment token joy Lydia welcome back to the PODCASTS. Great to be here Brian. You're here a couple of years ago and you were. I guess she were somewhat newish. Then but now. You're you're going on three years in a while it I it was Huffington. Post our were over to huffpost right. Huff post is what it is this. Okay so talk to US three years in. What's what's been the big change? Think obviously Ariana's no longer there. Sure yeah no she's She's moved on to to to greater glory. I I think to me the biggest change from my perspective is. We've really focused based on putting people at the center of our stories and that was a process that started right right when I began. We did a bus tour across the country We actually two to one one in two thousand seventeen. That was the listen to America tour and then another one Just on the run up to the two thousand eighteen midterms where we took it. RV across different parts of the country. And we really wanted to do was put listening and connecting with ordinary people at the heart of our journalism. And let our agenda be dictated by What we heard from people and Just have a kind of constant feedback loop about what really matters to folks and that's had some really interesting in consequences. It certainly has shifted. How do we deploy our journalists Topics that weren't even really on our radar screen have become major coverage areas for us for example. Oh housing Turns out there's a housing crisis all across America Not just in San Francisco New York but in Boise Idaho And Fort Wayne Indiana So so housing. Affordability has become a huge coverage area for us and we actually have someone more or less working on it. Full time The other thing we heard loud and clear was that there is a massive mental health crisis happening in this country and some of it is acute and related to the OPIOID epidemic but A lot of it is Is kind of chronic And so we've had a huge you push and this has always been a coverage area for post but we've we've really expanded to To do a lot of service journalism around mental health We just had a really big series that we did that was actually global. Not just in the United States called You should see someone and it was a how to guide of how to do therapy and You know we modified it for for the different markets that we did it in you know in India had one area focus in the US a big area focus was how do you pay for therapy. health insurance durance plans often. Don't have parody on so so really imbuing a sense of service and an and just picking up the keys from our audience about like what really matters to them so this this was happening right after trump got elected right. I mean so. I think a lot of people a lot of lot of news organisations were at the time doing a lot of navel-gazing and they're saying we gotTA GOTTA get out to Real America. Dispatching people to Iowa and whatnot am that seems to have faded as as as the trumpster is become a very very Washington story. Sorry Yep Extreme this wasn't just like a passing thing. Everyone reddened hillbilly allergy after the election dutifully. Yeah for us. It was not not so much about Doing Safaris into the quote unquote heartland or diner interviews for us. It was really about Kind of deeper listening in and then just fundamentally changing our newsroom operates And you know look we cover Washington. We have great Washington Bureau You know we get scoops From from the hill We're all over the impeachment story and certainly that's an important thing that we do but we also have You know fulltime Labor reporter. WHO's out in the country recovering? The real lived experience of workers Who travels constantly and is super attuned to what's happening With American workers workers. We have folks who are focused on health care on mental health on of variety of issues. that that really bring to life the things that we heard from our our audience. So it's not so much about saying we WANNA make sure that we're reflecting what trump's America thinks we want to get even deeper underneath that and say what are the things that are driving the phenomenon. Now that we're seeing in our political life right now The events in Washington are really interesting. we're all paying attention to them. There's been a huge glut of news from Washington. But was what's it's been interesting for us and is that if we look at the proportion of news on our site that is tagged politics and hard news. It's it's actually decreased over the last year it used to be a seventy three percent and now it's only fifty eight percent so What do you think is that a refree quincy capping ourselves? Nice to there's some there's some frequency capping but I think it's also that because I don't think it's it's I don't think it's that we're serving up fluff And you know when I look at the work that we've been doing it's that we're we're we're pivoting away from being obsessed with every twist and turn of the mulling reporter every you know new witness in the impeachment inquiry. Yeah I mean we're covering that but we've also made a ton of space for lots of other things that people are really concerned about right now. But how do you strike that balance. I mean like as journalists. This is a great story. It's a great story great story but I think we also need to be listening to what our audiences telling us which is that they have really rich and full lives that And need help with a lot a lot of things in a lot of different areas of their lives. So so you know I think I think it's really a question of finding that balance and You know we are very committed to covering on news that is always a huge part of our identity but we also do so much more. So how you mentioned that the newsroom needed to operate differently. Explain how that works works in reality. I think I think that for a long time The News Business The digital news business was really a very very he. Kind of metrics driven business in the sense that You would look at what's trending on Google or what's hitting on social and you'd right to those those things and a huge amount of what you do was aimed at scale at getting lots and lots of people to come to your site and and and gaming the various ways in which you get audience in order to draw people to to to your site so you can show them advertising. I think those games are over You know every we'll we'll say Huffington Post. I believe started the. What is the Super Bowl? No question and I think that like Wayne in one of the great things about huffpost is an annual tradition. Yes it's an annual tradition. But I mean the the great thing and no shade but you know the New York Times does what time is You Know Seo driven headlines there was a moment of arbitrage is where a handful of players huffpost has always been an innovator You know we were early on and really I to search You know this is long before I got there air but I to search You know very early on social And have written you know very early on mobile. Have Ridden every successive wave. But I think we've reached appoint where there is a kind of unilateral Not Disarmament but we're everyone basically has access to the same Yes the same set of tricks in In tool so there's there's really there's really not a lot of advantage to be gained and also these platforms have changed right and they're listening to different signals. You know you have Google Tweaking its algorithm to say we're GONNA focus on original reporting that we're GONNA we're GonNa put our thumb on the scale to the to the news organization that actually broke a piece of original reporting reporting as opposed to Someone who aggregated it. You know that fundamentally changes the business model for a lot of publishers. Does that mean far less aggregation. I think it means. Yeah I mean aggregation is important. I think because it's a service right. People come to have post to get a picture of what's happening in the world and you know we're very lucky to have one of the biggest home-pages ages in In the digital news industry. It's a place that people come to multiple times a day. We have a highly engaged homepage audience so we want to make sure that if there's something that that audience the inst- needs to know about that we have some kind of presence on it but You can't you can't build a business around aggregation right like you can't build because the pats gets to distribution and the paths to monetization Just don't support it anymore right so So original journalism really has to to be at the heart of what you do and original journalism is now at the heart of what huffpost does right. We're no longer a a site that that is open to anyone who wants to blog about what's on their mind. Everything is an editorial product that has been through our editorial vetting process Written by staff or written by qualified freelancers who are paid for their I'm sure you've because sort of a gut feeling whether you had a good week or good month right but what do you look at. What are the? KPI's if you will that you look at at the end of a month about whether you're you're doing well I I think You always want to have a sense that your stories are resonating with an audience. So I do think that scale matters but it's more of a journalistic rather than a the The number of people visitors matters. Because you you it but but again for me that's more of a journalistic metric rather than a Rather than a performance metric right like. It doesn't necessarily tell you a whole lot about how your business is doing but it does tell you a lot about whether you're journalism is resonating with a lot of people So so that's one piece of it And you know it's also bragging rights who who doesn't want to be the biggest and the best and bigger than our competitors But but every month CNN in an sends me and of course they do and now Fox News comes right after them but no no no. I think the newest thing is actually citing adobe analytics as if oh interesting if the if that is like an actual measurement that anyone could verify but I think for us like the the key measures that I've been looking four looking at our. You know how. How much time are people spending with our stories? what are the key. Ratios in terms of You know monthly active users over daily active users. And is that a healthy number of people. You want to see loyalty him. I WANNA see loyalty and you know we. We launched a membership program Huffpost huffpost plus and it has to tears a free tier which is just you know log in and you get access to certain newsletters things like that And then there's a paid tier but the pay tier is not about pay wallets If you believe in this journalism and you want it to be available Free of cost for anyone to read like then. Then you can. You can help us Support this journalism so I am part of the mission. Obviously there's been a pivot paid and a lot of a lot of areas and then there's the question about will not everyone can pay so I mean access is important Yup So having is it seems like you guys are really committed as much as you can to making the overwhelming majority of of the newseum producing freely available. Yeah I think I think that I think that that for me This is the I really think about and worry about a lot and particularly in the aftermath of the two thousand sixteen election You know there was a lot of conversation about You know quote unquote low information. Voters and who has access to high-quality not news. And you know look. I spent fifteen years working at the New York Times which is fantastic news organization and I'm thrilled to see them thriving with a subscription model That restricts access excess to to their their product. But I think what we're ending up with is a Highly unequal news ecosystem in which the the wealthiest Most educated most spoiled for choice news consumers are the best served by the ecosystem right and the people. Who are you know either can't afford or are not inclined to Lean forward and pay for a subscription are are the worst serve bar information ecosystem and perhaps those are the people who who who are most in need high-quality accessible and relevant news and so for me part of the part of the The attraction of of of of a platform like huffpost is it is free and available to one. And you know I I would be very worried about a world in which Advertisers supported free to consumer News just went away. I think that would be a tragic loss. I mean there are some similarities to the nutrition challenge of the fact that you know poor. Four people tend to eat worse because the you know yeah I calorie. High fat food is cheaper than fresh vegetables than everyone has a farmer's market Around yeah well. Yeah I mean when I was a college student and you know we're paying my my own way You know I would buy for four boxes of macaroni and cheese for a dollar at the grocery store and and eat macaroni and cheese every night for dinner Like you know it wasn't because I that was my favorite thing. Yeah but you know I mean you know could be Mac and cheese can be rahm and it could be whatever right But I think I think I think that beyond price. I think there's also a relevant question I mean you look at I love the F.. T. It's one of my guilty pleasures to get the weekend section You know they have a You know how to suspend oversight scarves. I keep joking with the larger the scarf the better absolutely absolutely start scarface statement You know or or the Wall Street Journal Mansion Section Right These are guilty pleasure slash hate eight reads For for a Lotta people I suppose but You know there are a thousand ways in which a news organization can signal to someone who Perhaps his on on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum that like this product is not for you right like yeah and so it's it's it's to me. It's it's not just the question of accessibility it's also about tone. It's also about the stories that you choose to cover and it's about the the orientation that you have towards institutions of wealth and power And I think all journalistic institutions Have as part of their DNA kind of antagonistic relationship to power. Right like that's That's at the core of of what every every respectable and self respecting organization. Is You know you you WanNa you WANNA hold powerful awful institutions to account but I think that there are subtler and softer ways in which sometimes It can feel like news. Organizations are really four powerful people and not for ordinary people in and for us at Huffpost No I I really you know I sort of rally cries were. We're really people before power. You know an in an ultimately like news personal and people want to understand how news connects to their lives and That that's a big part of the business that were so there is this idea When companies started moving to subscription models that it would it would align better right so usually news is a strange business in that you've got an audience and you've got customers and and sometimes they're in conflict and the idea was well if you lined that up and it's about consumer revenue and there's less conflict sort of see in the opposite possibly around I? I think that I actually think that this is a huge unexamined under examined ethical dilemma You know as journalists. We've had generations honoration of experience avoiding conflicts with advertisers. Like it would never occur to us to S- to slant our coverage to suit a big advertiser. That's just not the way that an and frankly the advertisers don't really expect or want that either been pretty well trained that that's just not how things work I think we're in a new era era. where the you know? The subscriber is is king and Suddenly you're having to figure out how to navigate that And and you know it's really interesting. I mean we don't have near times. Copy editor chooses some word in a headline and a bunch of people on twitter are saying cancelling Yorktown. Yeah and I think I think not to. Its credit. The New York Times is you know sticking to its guns and I think sees is is trying not to be swayed by by the quote unquote mob You know which which I think is is probably right but ultimately that does have consequences and And it means that you have to have a different and much more sophisticated relationship with your audience than you would otherwise I mean look. It's no secret that you know Post has a huge progressive audience. Right You know it's it's it's roots were in you. Know the response to George W Bush being reelected. That's why are having started it right. It was supposed to be a counterweight to the drudge report. I mean I think we've come a long way since those days but we still have a core you know very strong progressive audience When we write critical articles about out you know things that we've learned about various Democratic contenders for the two thousand twenty election or gets mad at US right? I mean there's a certain contingent of our our audience that thinks if we write a critical article about About Joe Biden were somehow You know harming the chances of the Democrats take take back the White House in my spots to them. It's not my job to help the Democrats back the White House. I mean not part of the resistance. Mill were absolutely not part of the resistance. No I I mean I think I think you know there's been a lot of There's a lot of conversation about bias. And who's left and his right and he's this and he's that and from my my perspective. I think of post being fundamentally aligned with People rather than the powerful right and and and for me that is that is a very. That's very different between being left or right and I think that what we've aggressive. We're living right now in a time where all of these terms just like. It's hard to know even even know what they mean anymore. Right I mean is You Know Donald Trump is a conservative populist. is is you know it's. It's all been scrambled. The traditional additional ideological polls have have have fundamentally been up ended And you have to look no further than the like Bernie to trump voter crossover right I mean I would. I would describe huffpost as Certainly having a populist edge you know we tend to have You know a strong progressive audience and You know I don't think we shy away from having a point of view And but I but I wouldn't say that we're aligned with a political party or Or even with a political no movement I think we reflect the passions and the concerns of our audience. Our audience cares deeply about gender equality about climate change about LGBTQ issues and You know we are covering those with with passion and They're these organizations that tried to cover such things dispassionately shortly and we are not one of them. Quick break now for a sponsor message from facebook. There is a new new feature emerging in mobile APP publishing. And that's it's not the easiest thing to wrap your head around but with the right partner. It's easy to figure out but don't take it from me. Here's what facebook Acura either have to say about it. Waterfalls are inherently inefficient. The old waterfall method was kind of antiquated. Did or backwards. At least hi I'm. BJ Balan director publisher solutions and partnerships at Facebook High Bat. In ripon I am the director of operations into accuweather under a waterfall mediation. If you if you look at what the process is today when an ad impression becomes available demand source actually willing to pay the most I particular impression might never get called because it's just further down the chain so this creates a real potential loss of revenue Bidding is a way you to offer advertisers an equal opportunity to build simultaneously on every impression in a publisher's inventory via single Ol- unified auction with the video system. You change the the allocation of resources internally. So you know if an ad ops team was focused based on pulling reports for all your waterfall partners changing priorities and CPM's you can now turn your resources and and into more revenue impacting parts of the business other than just managing your waterfall partners. So moving to bidding as a publisher I think is the most responsible thing you can do in regards to your business US ready to learn more check out digitally dot com slash facebook slash APP bidding. So how about the business model. Are you more encouraged now. Three years in that. This kind of news can be supported by a sustainable business model Three years ago I am. Actually I mean I think I think that We've we've done a lot of experimenting with with a bunch of different a bunch of different things. I mean first of all. Were part have verizon media which you know operates a very successful you digital advertising platforms. We have access to some of the best forms of monetization in in the industry. So that's a that's a great thing in your in your back pocket that's the sort of You Know High Quality Programmatic Base of the pyramid You know you build on top of that that with Branded content you build on top of that and the pyramid keeps getting smaller and smaller but like that's okay right ultimately it's a pyramid. We were talking about nutrition and earlier. You build on top of that some e commerce you build on top of that some events You know I mean one Really interesting bright spot for us has been We have a podcast called here to make friends and a feminist podcast about the bachelor and it's insanely popular. We've had a run of sold out live shows where We're turning people away at the doors. They're you know we have various celebrities like you know on a waiting list to be guests on the show and We're selling out are merchant every show so so I think like we're tapping into things that really weren't businesses that are businesses now and you need to take a little bit here a little bit there. you know a big chunk of brand content a big chunk of Increased engagement which allows you to grow your video monetization etc etc and it all adds up. I mean is it going to be a double digit margin business You know the original content news business maybe never will be again but can you create a sustainable sustainable platform for quality journalism that serves an audience that needs at absolutely. What are you not betting on? And we we see a lot of people trying to get on net flicks. Doing licensing deals in Hollywood. I don't think you guys have done. No we've we've I mean you know. Stay tuned we. We definitely have irons in the fire. you know. I think I think we're kind of open to anything but I think we're not We're not betting on You know pivoting video for example You know that's not been a an area focus for us. I think were You know we're not doing a lot of the you know. Massive churning out of text onscreen green Video that you pump out on various platforms like that's that's that's not where huffpost is going We're not betting on On Scale L.. I scale sake. That's that's not our. That's not our bag. We're not betting on a paywall. Obviously so talk to me about that about the memberships. Then because I mean consumer revenue is obviously it comes in a few different flavors And putting up a paywall semester direct way. Not The way you're going. Yeah probably not right for of I Explain what this is other than just asking people to donate well so there are a couple of different things right. There are different benefits from membership. So when when someone becomes purpose plus member they get access to some exclusive Newsletters they get access to an ad free version of our APP We put a bunch of features In the set of things that that people get when they get discounted our companies store. If you pay for a year up front you get a huff. Post people before power T. SHIRT WHICH TURNS OUT TO BE VERY POPULAR ITEM but it turns out in all of our surveys. Whenever we've talked to people about you know why would you WANNA WANNA pay To become post member the number one reason is we want to support a post journalism. We believe this journalism needs to exist in the world and we we think it should be Free and available elbow to those we don't want to behind a paywall so So I think there is Is that a lasting thing though. I don't know if it's a lasting thing thing but I think for us That that focus on the core people who are going to support our journalism those folks are great right like and we're happy to capture as many many of them as we possibly can and and thankfully their their their healthy number of them. Will you tell me how men of course I'm Elliot. How many isn't a written on that sheet? Don't know it's not really the kidding me. But what we've also learned is that Simply getting people to become Free members logged in members. brings them into our into our RICO system and increases their lifetime value like almost exponentially so when someone goes from being an anonymous user on Huffpost to to being a logged in user. We've seen growth Over the past three months since we created this Essentially they consume double the number of pages as they've gone from like you know sixty four page pages a month to one hundred twenty pages a month so when someone becomes a logged in user they just spend a lot more time with us And their engagement deepens and then that also gives us the opportunity to offer them other things. Like hey you know we're developing You know have post learning opportunity or about your we have a huffpost Evander Festival You know Would you like to come to it. So you bring people into your ecosystem you bring people into your You know kind of huffpost universe of the funnel as part of the funnel people really like that data exactly so for us. It's really about Increasing the lifetime value of Of of a user and you know when you people down the funnel the lifetime value goes up and so for us you know if people there. There's there's a cohort of our super users who who want to give us money and we'll you know we'll happily happily take their money and put it towards Doing more great journalism. And then there's a cohort of people who just want to get closer to us and And that is And that's also great and creates tremendous value for us as a publisher. Oh sure as well. Okay so I gotta ask you a media selling huffpost. Well look you know we don't we don't talk about speculation N- Things that have really no basis in fact You know I I you know I I read that article just like you did. I have not seen anybody able to match it and I I think that You know they're probably a lot of people who've tried so you can draw your conclusions from that okay. But what is being within verizon media. Now what's been the difference. Well I mean I think you know candidly it's great to be part of a really big successful company I look at my colleagues who Worked for companies that are owned by impatient Venture capitalist. You'd like them to sell to recoup their investment It's it's nice to be part of a big stable company that is thinking about the future and has a long horizon in his thinking about the way that content and and Connectivity come together And you know Reisen has actually been a really great steward or puff post and I think there's a lot of enthusiasm for the the brand the company so for me It's been a source of support instability and And that's been great final thing so give me the reason to be optimistic optimistic about the future of journalism as a sustainable business. Well I think it's partly about about where consumers are right. I mean I think I think I look at the way in which young people right now are taking the The the future sort of in their own hands I look at these movements like You know the sunrise movement around climate. I look at the movements around gun violence. These are people who you want to take action in the world and being informed is a really important part of Being able to take action in the world and so seeing the uptick and engagement engagement particularly among young people on these core issues that really will determine human survival. I think tells me that there's a huge future for journalism and for digital media in particular doesn't mean it's going to be easy to get there but As long as there are people who are interested in it as long as there are large numbers of people who who want want and need access to high quality journalism. There's a model out there to pay for it. One issue I wanted to ask you about was this idea of of platforms directly pain publishers recording doing this on the same day that Facebook as a dog and pony show about Their News Tab which paint some publishers. I don't know if they're paying you. We we're not commenting about our participation in the in the In the FACEBOOK News Tab. One way or the other I think our content is certainly going to be part of it but but I think it's I think it's a good thing if you know these platforms want to provide Money to publishers. Will we'll take. We'll take any money that we get kerm not from anyone I mean they're you know But I think I think more importantly a I think it's really important that publishers not depend on handouts handouts from from platforms We saw how how that went with. Video didn't work out so well And you know yesterday. I was at a twitter of Jack. Dorsey said look. You know we don't want to start creating unsustainable lines of funding for journalism. I'm saying it much more articulately than he did. 'cause you know talks like a like iota it's been out in the desert with. I think that there's something to that right. Like you know. Sure you can get a few million bucks for a few years from facebook but ultimately is that something something that you build your future on. I don't think so You know at the same time. The broader regulatory landscape is shifting I think there's a lot of concern On both sides of the aisle about the platforms are playing I also think the advertising industry is changing. Advertisers are skeptical about these platforms. They really we. They are looking for reasons to spend their money somewhere out yet and yet they still for a ton of money into Google and facebook but I guess the good thing if there is a good thing I just don't know
Keeping Up with Kimmy | Interview with Huffpost Asian Voices Editor Kimmy Yam
"<music> sit how y'all the six hundred dollars per year year year welcome to another episode of six ninety nine per pound podcast interview view leaders and professionals from a wide variety of careers and lifestyles just like the diverse food options found korean own deli. Thank you to order supporters and fans that have been showing us love and you need to do that more by following us and lakers shero on g when you listen in his episode man make sure you screen shotted posted tags on your story. You tell the friend to tell the frontier neighbor. Tell your guidance counselor. Whoever the shout you without all your comments fees leaving them <hes> so yeah on that note joe. I heard that we got a very special old guest today very very right. I'm really excited to injure her today. Just a little background how came across this amazing lady <hes> randall on instagram of course i was scrolling through and on chose instagram shot up frisco was a founder of asian women in the arts. I'm seeing this girl mike. Oh my gosh. She's like swoop beautiful. Who is this click on her and i'm like oh. She's really smart. She's like she's not just like a model with happening and i was reading in her comedy became such an avid fan of her work. <hes> our guest today is actually <hes> one of the most exciting voices reporting on asian america right now <hes> she he is the huffpost asian voices editor which is incredible title that we are excited to get into these welcome. Kimmy sure shania kimmy yom or kim nam. I honestly like i need to clarify the pronunciation. I should ask my parents. I don't speak candidate is kept hello. Yom's your parents are from the south. Southern regions of china different like giannis actually gathers. There's fujianese my dad has hong kong citizenship and the changes name to can't shut out to all of jason sunset park fairly yeah <hes> oh really attorneys. We have all the bad stereotypes cash you as because you're on your instagram. He's like because i follow your answer and esme anything and they're like you'll like what are you like those questions into like everyone thinks i'm korean food to news like yeah so i mean i'm i'm korean american but if you queens you'll know like liked assignee's. Kinda have a bad rep of being like hannah like the country bumpkins chinese. I mean so i mean if you grew up in brooklyn queens. You would have been very well assimilated. Yes the queen. I'm not sure yeah yeah no f j we're supposed to be really it it all that and that's fine because i <hes> and proclaiming everywhere exactly rock and bootlegs legs kind of stereotype amongst northern chinese yeah yeah they all look down <music> split represented many amazing so you <hes> i know jake saw her at a panel do so were you on the panel as well as a guest shoutout to eric chow from live nation to pull up and then kimmy was over there she was talking about ultimate gone easy yen narratives and you know she was like kind of supporting with carport facts and also okay she. She's like y'all. She's your asian voices editor huffington post now by other what the fuck that her life sounds like a made up title. Almost you know what i mean but <hes> you know chopped off with a real quick and then you'd be perfect for talk. How's that so you know a month later here. We are no pong yeah. Yeah i mean in the light of what does it mean to be asian voices editor. Can you explain what that is and maybe just a little bit about origin mention of it. Yeah the beat is. I think people get confused like one. We're covering stories anything a lot of the rest of mainstream media <hes> has this issue like when we're covering stories and someone in it happens to be asian that does not constitute as an asian american story with but you know like they'll give themselves on the back and be like okay okay. This is diversity but that's not really true. Yeah i cover issues a disproportionately affect the asian american community so whether it's <hes> you you know the poverty high rates of poverty in new york city or <hes> a lot of immigration issues these ice rates that are impending or you're gonna a hit our community really hard because <hes> we are disproportionately targeted by ice in new york city. We have one of the highest we have the highest rate of deportation stuff like that asian masculinity all these different topics that specifically affect the asian american community. It's not like you happen to have like a chinese guy random story <hes> and so yeah. That's basically that's basically it. Yeah you started handed out a huff post though as like a fellow and you were like jumping around and being as versatile as possible when was it when you i found lead this was going to be like what you're the leading charge like the asian voices. I think that i always i always wanted to cover for asia america <hes> because it's just i think that when you grow up with just a lack of understanding of your heritage and all this stuff <hes> and then you kind of discover it later in life you take further steps to really really really get to know these topics. It's not going to be like you know you don't take your agent americanised americanised for granted and so i think through that and exploring and reading and reading and more reading and consuming more asian american media. I think i'd always i just wanted to cover that <hes> but you know starting off in huffpost. We didn't have an asian voices yet <hes> and so it did a couple years of you know. At first it was like a lot of uplifting news and then also <hes> solutions journalism so if you kind of identify issue and then you write about groups that are helping and stuff like that that which was that was really that was cool beat as well and then it was finally time. I think he was late. Twenty sixteen <unk> who restarted just you know revving up for a launch of asian voices but i think the goal in the back of my was always a coverage in america yeah yeah yeah yeah and was there a latin voice lack ways at post or rust belt individuals <hes> there is everything except there's a latina voices black voices queer voices. They're just was not an asian voices so i think you know in the back of all of our minds. We were like okay. This is gonna happen. It's gonna be a thing yeah great. <hes> i know we talked a little bit about your background prior fire to recording but just so our listeners are aware of you know where this is desire come from for you to want to cover asian american voices and why you wanted to honor are these kinds of groups that have been overlooked in the past yeah i so i grew up upstate new york. <hes> and you know it's. It's not really an area. That's known for having a ton of agent. It's not a big hub in your neighborhood was a call saugerties. It's different now so be mistaken with socrates so not tease <hes> yeah. It was really different growing up from what it is now because i think a lot of people in the city like going upstate for vacation in value. A lot of people are moving into those like nice little. It's so weird because i think you know all these. He's like shops and stuff are popping up in locals. Do not go there because we cannot afford it so you know it's like a weird vacations yeah so i don't recognize it. When i go back. I honestly like it's a little bit upsetting but yeah. I grew up there. <hes> and there were no other asians. There's very very few agents <hes> and then and you know on top of that. I'm from a chinese restaurant. Family of fujianese chinese restaurant family and there are so many stereotypes all these things attached to you know chinese restaurants shots and training workers. You know you're probably cooking cat and dog or whatever and i think my childhood was just rejecting everything that had to do with injuries injuries because everything that people thought of us were so negative and i think too when you do grow up in kind of a chinese restaurant family. It's a different french stereotype from that model minority that a lot of other people of course you know we've almost gotten yeah. It's kind of the opposite opposite where people think you guys are workers and you smell like food all the time and you're just you know you're here to serve us. That's that's kind of the mentality that people people have around people and so i think you know and leaving and going to college and doing things like that like i was exposed goes to apprently asian pride for the first time and that triggered now i went to georgetown dc dc korea but yeah college was weird because my parents did not go to college and then you know it's like you're going from a very blue collar working class us like when we got there. It was weird because i kind of assumed like if you're from a chinese restaurant family all the other families that you know you're going to be asian families that you are going to be chinese. Restaurant families gets a little bit different. <hes> like a coalition kind of feels like that like everyone you know is kind of you know my cousins like everybody is chinese restaurant and but i went to college and i just assumed assumed that there'd be a like a ton of people and i remember asking someone what their <hes> parents in their like their cancer research searchers what the how do i know that like asians. You know it's weird. I grew up with kind of an opposite <hes> <hes> an opposite idea of what ages are because we weren't a model minority yeah very much opposite but i think a lot of it was just i wanted to. We get out from really really small town and you kind of you know. You don't have it any source of pride. Yes wanna leave <hes> and so for me. You know the a ticket to success would be like going to like a really bucci school and tells you that when you get there. You don't really feel like you fit. Ah yeah only the whole time. If you like all throughout high school and just waiting to leave wing you know like escape and you get there and you realize like you know your escape it a little bit different different from what you thought it would be <hes> so it's been a weird journey but that college was. I sure the first time i felt like i wanted to reclaim claim my roots yeah it was it was weird seeing that other asians like didn't hate them so you know and when we were we have a group text ninety nine per the pound shout out <hes> and we were discussing you obviously <hes> the main attraction of but one of the things that obviously came up was your viral tweet <hes> that came out during the crazy rich asians wave of <hes> you kind of go through this this journey of i don't want to be chinese. Don't wanna be chinese and all these anecdotes of you growing up in socrates new yorker and some of the things that saugerties and things that shaky pushed you on and and <hes> but at the end is triumphant <hes> kind of thing where you see these asian faces on screen and the position that you're in and the community you have <hes> <hes>. Can you talk about that in a little bit and maybe some of the things that you received from. Maybe like the little kinney's out in the world. I mean it made me cut us out because we are so isolated. It makes you realize like unless people are talking about it like that. There are so many other people across the country that it feels like they're the only ones and are only ones and so no one's telling them that it is going to be okay or you know like the it's. There's nothing wrong with embracing racing identity. No one's no one's saying that now because we're not on screen and because we're not in the news media or anything like that like you just don't have that idea and so it makes you realize that there are so many other people who are going through the same thing but you know without more of a platform out there. No one's gonna know that they're not alone yeah exactly but yet. It's that whole kind of arc is interesting because it's so i if i can explain this in lake research term so there is a concept called symbolic annihilation. Basically it was coined in the seventies. He's <hes> by. I believe his name is george. Gardner larry grows so much research hashtag racers us. What is this what symbolic annihilation unleashing yeah and so it's this body of research basically says that if you're not reflected in media entertainment on screen whatever that your existence in the physical world is not validated so you're you're just you are socially annihilated your erase yeah <hes> and so that ends up making people question whether they actually matter in society because this this is there's there's nothing shakes them exactly <hes> and so when you are represented <hes> and it's kind of a negative give a negative representations so if it's like long duk dong weird nerdy people and shit like that <hes> you know your idea of what your identity is is just going to be that yeah and for me. I felt like we weren't talking about why representation matters. I think asian america has this issue where we don't we say a lot of shit and like there's a movement and whatever but people don't get the premise behind. Don't get the motivations behind it and what happens and if something what what does happen if you're not represented like there are actual consequences to it you know we are socially annihilated symbolically annihilated and so i think it was important for me to prove that you know there's research that shows that there are consequences. There's so many studies out there. <hes> you know for example when children i think it was a two thousand and two study that showed that when black and white boys and girls watch tv yeah the only group that came out with a higher self esteem as white boys and that just shows like we can't ignore media for yeah you you know we. I think a lot of people think entertainment is so fluffy and if you cover absolutely enough but i think for me. There's something that there's a power will first of all that hit me for a couple reasons. I think i had gotten to know the cast yeah through so many different profiles those interviews and stuff like that leading up to i had covered that movie for so long and it's kind of nice to see people that you like no in a different front way hands on time with kind of make it like that's that's beautiful to me in one way and there's also really beautiful to me to see that you know like asians sounds as in diversity of personalities is really important to me and when you're not you don't have just one in the cast for diversity quota purposes. You know this is just everyone is just a different different. Look different type of asia and that is is really important to see because we need to know that we can be different. <hes> and i think that you know growing up if i had seen something like that and been like okay like the cool like a beautiful like gemma chan i had seen like gemma chan when i was growing up. I think that you know maybe some of these like self esteem issues when exists you you know stuff like that <hes> and so it was. I thought it was really powerful just to see you know like those. Those people are us on <hes>. I don't think think that you know. I think that there's this misconception that <hes> crazy rich asians was going to change hollywood. Yeah and i think that there the articles that said that i had i was always really really hesitant to say that because we say that that was that that had changed the industry then i feel like hollywood things that you just need one movie every twenty five years and you're supposed to be satisfied with and so i think another reason why didn't really speak out or criticize it as much because i don't think that movie when we think about wrong calms that's right and we were like like thirteen going on thirty. I don't think i'd ever expected that movie to carry all the social sel burdens of like decades worth of asian american issues i didn't i didn't expect that movie to explain race or class or anything thing like that to me. <hes> it's just like silly rom com you know so i feel like we put so much pressure on that movie because there hasn't been so many many asian american movies out there but it didn't really need to have that pressure. You know because it's a wrong com yeah do. Why do we have such crazy standards crazy rich asians yeah. It'd be kind of weird if it started to address like really heavy social social justice issues so i think i can see why asians are so hungry for something yeah and so when we look at it we want it to represent everybody but one that's impossible to it is is literally around. Com sounded documentary. It's not a you know. It's not a heavy heavy drama or anything. It's just a silly movie. Yeah take it for what it is but yeah yeah yeah take it for what it is however the cast that are in it basically represented something that you wish you had as a kid exactly okay uh-huh like my favorite movie of all time i'll say it again is rush hour and i'm like i watch all art house films. No i'm like a huge fan of like john lago darden. Whoever like morehouse film shit you could talk about but yo if i have to pick a film that i would watch before i die. I would watch washout. Take it for what it is. I think that's totally fine. Yeah i have one question so what you mean. Asian voices started asian voices and huffpost started. How many years ago huffpost three years ago yeah so. Did you see some like the traffic. Increase is or a huge interest asian. She's she's asking. What did the editors or like. The rest of the newsroom kind of have different story could take no no but i'm just curious of just like we did. They were like oh wow the story did really well. There's a lot of dollars. No there are a lot of times where people are surprised cover deportations the southeast asian asian community a lot and i think every single time there's like a scoop or something like that i read the it's always like oh wow like this is in the top ten yeah really really <hes>. It's always a surprise for k pop so interview g dragon for double exo. Oh many years ago g dragon as you know one of the biggest pop stars that crash site i wasn't i wasn't like supportive. The first story like the editor was if you wanna go do this whatever you go ahead so i kind of like took my own time out to write this story and that broke the site and as soon as it broke the site right like the publisher was like should we start capon magazine. Help people say twenty twelve. You know what i mean. This is the only when something wins. They think that's the only only formula that's going exactly the problem with asian american media <hes> you know they think they're gonna see okay key pop so like we're just going to capitalize on that. <hes> yeah i think after crazy regions to a lot of the <hes> a lot of the pilots and everything had to do with rich asian yeah like that's not the only narrative the album we can do other things i understand that that worked but in order to really keep going and have a successfully transformed hollywood it's not going to be replicating the same story over and over and over yeah totally not however that is hannah how formulas work you know yeah you know remember when like in the late nineties there was all these he's like charlie on fat jerry lee bruce jackie chan they were all pumping out like hollywood films rumble in the bronx hit. Yeah all of a sudden you see all these asian asian. Martial arts stars having a a run in hollywood. I think that's kind of what is happening with these. <hes> asian american focused content so you know what i mean. You know you either catch the wave or not yeah and link to that point. It's kind of like so. I think this is the issue in news where i because <music> of crazy rich asians i think most of mainstream media and all these like big legacy companies still only think that the stories that are worth telling are going to be representation asian in hollywood which is such bullshit because i get that i get that it's important is incredibly important but if you not tell you about politics if you're not talking about immigration yeah. What are you doing the same amount of engagement. I like it actually. Does i think so yeah yeah. When i write about immigration i a lot of those stories you'd better than representation and i also think that more so than like hollywood beat stuff like obama celebrities and shit l. If it's like really fluffy gossip stuff i wanna go on fresh off the boat yeah right but that's also not really a asian-americans. American stories like a juicy gossip. There are all these issues that i think like right now. There's this idea that the only asian american american issues representations yali would we've you step outside of that and you want to talk about like the wealth gap that is an asian american story because because there are institutionalized reasons barriers behind why there is such a large wealth gap when we're talking about right amongst asians and amongst among asian as well yeah among asians or like the high poverty rate <hes> we have the highest of the social <hes> i forget the exact name of the report but i think it just came out last shear and <hes> for one year that i think maybe <hes> the community had a higher poverty rate but now asians are back highest poverty rate and a lot of that has to do with bad data it has to do with the fact that there is a small minority myth <hes> so that when we have such issues news people who people in need can actually get resources because the city is not gonna dole out resources to group that is perceived to be doing so yeah. No i recall the huffpost pieced and i'm like wait chimera of liked it yeah of like makes issue invisible lay the mara minority already myth makes these stories just unbelievable literally unbelievable and it's. I always think about how you know. There's people like <hes> you know. There's even even like new york times reporters trying to see what's behind asian american success but is is what is asian american success when our people do have the highest poverty rate. That's not as accurate representation presentation of us but no one's talking about it and it still blows my mind. It's over a thirteen year period. Asian american in groups got roughly. One percent of the city's social service funds god. That's nothing over thirteen years which city new york new york okra right now. I think that things might be looking at because there's an asian american task force total but that's also because we have two members in the state legislature in the assembly that are now asian when before it used <hes> she's she's she's in d._c. We have ron kamron on kim represented flushing shutouts ron kim which also like ronchi that whole story is. I remember i am argued. You lean who who used to work for him and now she is also an assembly and she was saying how on the day that he was elected. Someone asked him to do like go. Style dan's kinda crazy art. There's always something just to remind you that people don't think asians are shits so over was a football player. You know me like he's american as you can't get but there's no like no matter what you do. People are always going to remind you know they yeah. I think we're fortunato yeah but you know that's basically all these issues that you know. There's things that target the community specifically are going to be asian american stories. Yeah constance is fresh off the boat. Stories are usually asian american. I remember who wrote about their driving episode because they're actually the statistics that show that asian americans get way fewer accidents and other races so we are actually technically lead the best suit that was that was like another asian american leadership. I mean i'm just gonna keep throwing us us sixty nine thousand nine hundred better drivers than most all of them on the shirt and tell them statistically we were better veteran drivers. I felt so i felt like yeah. This is silly episode but like i'm going to write it up because there is like the fact that we're good at math because we can talk about statistics ha we used to do you have a team that in asian voices are you one man sorta kinda across the if we have something like heritage month the you know. That's something that i'll plan and then people cross the sater's supposed to pitch in. I know at ed whatever so to be fair like. I follow you on on on like like onto graham and now when i meet you in person you cho- you know you call your soul like a._c._m. Pride you know what i mean like e._s._p._n. Or not you know what i mean this is. I was like damn you'll walk. Kimmy so aggressive about old is easy listening like i'm <unk> as easy and prided out as you can get there. I'm not like super like like any like we're vocal about it on like the grand more on social media spot after after speaking with you now for about like an hour like i could see where a lot of that came from you know supported by you know your personal experiences and is is also supported by like a lot of the research that you've done and the position that you're in now you know what i mean. Yes oh for for for the listeners out there at as like wondering the same thing that i've wondered this. This is the reason why you know what i mean. Yeah no. I do think that you know especially asian women. I think that we have to be like a very clear segue because that was the next assets. Actually <hes> yeah like it's you know sometimes you just have to you have to speak up and be more aggressive because people are going when you're not gonna think that you're issues mean anything yeah like there is such a idea that asians are basically white and yet they're it's. It's factually incorrect and also we are. You know there's so much i can you know from communities of color yeah other friends ryan's like one of them told me that should one time to check son like your family. The fuck you talk about other communities of color. It's a lot of other asians two grown up with yeah privilege like the the thing is like asian makers of very divided. I think it's like you come from very working class family who doesn't have an education like my people and then you come from a plot it's weird because our communities don't really neat <hes> and so we both exist in like such a like two different worlds thank tribalism within the asian community. That's the koreans all hang out the koreans <hes> like the chinese kids hang out with the chinese kids and and it's very it but i think it's more so than race. I think it has to class class. Yeah <hes> sure i got to america. I was living in elmhurst jackson heights. That's kind of like the first like that's the word you touchdown touchdown from. If you come up you go to long long island where jersey this is like a very strictly and east coast reference by like i remember like when i was over there and meet like kids that live in like fort lee jersey z. or like somewhere in like long island in kids be having backyards and shit like the maltese puppies drivin benzes and lexuses lexuses while my parents were like rocking like a three thousand dollar cadillac my bob pops by bought from like dude yeah from like eighty four you know what i mean so like there was an immediate like wealth gap that i experienced first hand and like you got a back yard and you're saying <hes> uh-huh shit what you don't have to like. Drop off your laundry. You got a machine in the crib. You know what i mean. I think too like even if you move up in life whatever family family you come from. That's like you're just kind of silent into that like among asians who you know. I feel like my parents made it. I feel like they're doing really well but at the end of the day you know they go to college no. Are they still working in a chinese restaurant. Yes our do other our other asian people or we're trainees. People are going to see them as you know affluent like <hes> higher class no one's ever gonna see us that way yeah no. That's it's it's interesting that that reform yeah. That's an issue that i think only other asians ends will understand yano if we talk about it among us. There is a huge. Yes very class related yeah so i'm going back to you know being an nation women in two thousand eighteen and also being journalist <hes> speaking of disproportionately affecting <hes> issues that affect you are are some of like a lot of the comments that you get on social media or on twitter on instagram and over. Maybe some of the articles that you publish or certain things that you say say. Could you talk about your experience in that. Oh yeah i i think the things that i get the most hey over. If i talk right about our undocumented documented population which nations have the fastest growing undocumented population we've grown our it's tripled over fifteen years so oh crazy but no one knows that things that who's antonio vargas is latino but you know when when you're talking about diet and it in for some reason people think that that's at odds with like patriotism in america and stuff like that <hes> you know you you just get hordes hordes of angry white supremacists who come and the only way somebody should they say like a south from like just calling calling names like is there anybody that tries to argue with facts and shit oh they never have facts never have really never ever or have facts but the but then it's like people bring up like oh you're. You're like fucking a white guy so weird random yeah. Does this relate relate to this article right or <hes> you know or if i read about yellow fever or if we publish a story about yellow fever that gets so much hate kate from white supremacist and it's it it is so strange because people always the their main thing is like one. They're going to comment on my policy. It's going to be like how many times can i get that comment. I don't know this past time. I think <hes> people started tagging revenge porn porn sites. You start being like oh. Someone wrote like your parents must have beat the shit out of you or you had like a like a the white guy must have like i don't know like be out of you and all that people will say what does your article say anything negative about white people know no no. We'll we'll say that if you have yellow fever and this is like factually if you're going to fetish i apple just how they look and by like dumb lick the the submissive stereotype. That's dehumanize yeah dehumanized so it's not even about racist just the fact that you are fetish izing over something then bastiat is the humanizing so they have something against the yeah there. They think that like oh like and then it's this whole discussion about like my appearance. There'd be like like last time it was like would smash would non smash. None of this has anything to do with my career. I am not a model. I am not a whatever like i'm just the journalist so it's a very strange that any of this has brought up but i think this is very very much tights effect that if you're an asian chick <hes> that's just the type of resort to this because that's what they don't you think also like if you're like an attractive black or white women like people were still say smash. I smash. I think boys being dumb. You know what i mean. Does that will get that for any any like any sort of females someone saying that the white dude's beat the shit out of you see something that is racial laws smash smash just like you know like you're an asian woman like you should be thankful. L. waco's or like people were his like oh. She's sales like racism. Yeah and it's like it's super blatantly you know and like i i the amount of times people have written into huffpost and been like. Can you fire this asian horley. It's never just like just. I wish people would just call me a whore like asian in front of it yeah. It was always something like that or like you fucking concubines yet ever like it's always like a very sexual racially charged thing and then when it happens you so much you start thinking like did i do something l. Avenue day like yeah yellow fever is grossly. It really is super dehumanizing. Why would i feel bad about <hes>. If i write about undocumented population like someone must write about it because if we don't talk about it these people are never going to get any resources percent the these things have to happen <hes> and like the fact that i'm going to sit there and just wonder like where did i go wrong. Nuts sucks but you know and then you know. There's definitely been times where i'm like. Maybe i'm just not cut out for journalism. I get this every single day but i mean i also wonder like because you know journalist analyst that are not as like because right now. We live in an era where journalists themselves are brand if you just had a byline and you as kimmy. Tom wasn't on social like they don't know how. You look like they don't have any info about you could just a byline like day. My send out like a like like you know back. In a day in magazines you see like letters from readers and shit might have been a criticism at most. You know what i'm saying but now we're living in an age where we we expose ourselves right. You know what i mean ain't so don't you think that also has to do with it not just because i mean ignorant guys are always going to be ignorant. You know what i'm saying is doing dumb. Shit is always going to do dumb shit but now we we almost kind of make ourselves target. You ever thought about that. You know so this is the i think. A lot of people think that i'm really provocative but i don't necessarily think the calling out racism is provocative is just like is this racist yesterday. It's racist i will i will fucking say something like not. Just getting i'm like okay. I'll just let this one slide again. I'm going to say something yeah and so i don't i think that we should all like unequivocally recognized recognize whether something is racist and not you know. I don't like that person shouldn't end up being a target. You know there shouldn't even and be like a discussion over there. I think like if something is wrong. It's just wrong and then we should talk about a conversation. I want to say too because i used to work at komo news and i work at c._n._n. Now and it is just part of journalism like you have to have face like that is just how does ecosystem works your aunt be anonymous and i think number one also validates that you are nation voices writer asian and you know there are a lot of people who up to you so i think it's important that you <music> are not hiding or you're not going to retreat from this because of this criticism and number two. I just still yes. There isn't element of like you you choose this job and there is a potential for a tax but the fact that she's getting death threats and like these how how these like death threats rape through all that stuff. It's like it's the violent homage to deal with. It's really really like upsetting. I feel like being a woman in any setting. You're definitely gonna be the type of threats that you're going to get. It's going to be a lot more aggressive aggressive as people immediate as the more we put ourselves out to your that type of shit is almost like there's only so much we could control that you know what i mean like the way don't people are going to be done regardless right now what i'm saying i think it's peop- people hate seeing an asian chick be really like loud or aggressive reverse strong they are they were paying it to be in the past because there's an expectation that like oh you were supposed to be nice you know and it's like when someone and finds out that you're not they're not happy and it's not even just the internet like i think like newsroom yet and like just the media in general. They're all the you know. It's it's bigger than that. Oh totally you know yo what's happening. I know you wanna be like jay. You wanna record your own podcast and be a man of moral and understanding is not easy to make a podcast like six ninety nine per pound it takes years of practice and relationship building his knowledge on how to start your own and make money while you're added because cash rules everything around kid on that note checkout anchor you heard anchor is a one stop shop for recording hosting and distributing your own podcast. It's a thousand percent free and matt easy to use on top of that anchors like an asian matches. You with gray sponsors want to advertise on your podcast. That means you get paid to talk has right away in fact you already know what i'm doing right now getting paid for this situation on that note. If you wanna kick off a park has more lower doing it gonna the anchor dot f._m. Slash starting your never be like jay or six ninety nine but you might get close to it once again. That's anchored that f._m. Slash start take advice and take it home with you kid i. I have this reputation that i'm really tough because of that. I think i think people are like okay. Let's see like how our intake this until we break her. Yeah you know they also don't realize like yes. I am tough. I can like go against whatever but that doesn't i mean i don't have feelings being emotions you know and so i think there is just this little game on the internet like let's see what we can say mommy coming to get points for this crazy though like out like when it's one or two comments you know <hes> this like one thing i can brush it up. Yeah it's a couple of comments nami of yeah and they get like hundreds of re tweets and and like a lot of support. That's when you start wondering like whoa. What's what's going on. Yeah yeah you know and i also think like for me. My trigger point is always going to be like a body image thing when people are they. Are you trying to tell me like oh. You're bodied this this whatever and the that happens a lot when these things go down like that's like i'm still working on the mice self still working on like being okay with like me and when that happens you fall into this <hes> you know we were just like damn i n <music> thing yeah and it's so hard went like you are strong and your best self and that your friends best self you know everything to say to yourself of like. Don't fuck them like don't listen to that exactly. Why are you letting them getting to you but then when you're in that moment you just can't help it and yeah and and i think what i talk about with a lot of my friends is that there's a lot of shame associated with it in terms of like. I know i shouldn't feel this way. I know that this isn't real tag nia. But why do i keep not being able to get back up and like why do why is it so hard to get back up and then it perpetuates until like you know. Get your shit together joanne like why are you being such a pussy dislike backup and do it but it's like. I know that was a strong with that. That's that's a yes 'cause. I think that there's this idea and this is why like when something upsets me. I'm like okay. I need to talk about it because i don't want young asian girls to think that they're not allowed to be sad yeah or allowed for something to really like hurt them you know because i think that people think i'm really tough but they think that like if someone looks up to me like that's the only way i can be and like when i when something happens and when something bad happens like i have to remain tough tough and have no emotions and just keep going. That's not true. I think like we get confused because feminism. I think tells us like we have to be strong on like fuck all this and whatever but like true feminism is understanding that you have emotions you have feelings and you're gonna fucking cries times because someone is like you know like destroyed like like that last like whole harangue fucking white supremacist like examining my body parts and trying to tell me you you know it's like that is so dehumanizing and like for me to just be like yeah fuck yeah like affecting me like this that is so unrealistic telling girls that like toxic masculinity is still the goal the goal is to just like have no feelings or emotions and like treat everyone like shit and you can just keep going like i want people to understand like if you're a true feminist. You're gonna understand your emotions. You're going to embrace them and you're going to know that that while you can say like fuck these people they suck. They're just people hiding behind their computers like yes things. Make me sad. <hes> you know like things make me anxious. This thing's really affect me and i feel things you know and so i we i think a lot of the comedy show you've ever okay so the thing with these people is that they will find you e every single platforms right into pose and they do this all the time being like fire. Her people have tried to people have tried to get me fired so like there was lights two or three people. I feel like that every single day after every single single article they would write in. I don't i don't have that much. Energy won't be a dope idea though like what like what if you kinda like bring these people on and basically glee say like you'll on camera. Would you be willing to say exactly what you said i. I thought about that but i'm also just like i don't. I don't want to give them a platform format. I think like a lot of these people. You don't know if they're violent earned. You know like you i think i think that a lot of these people are like based raced on the things that they say are very like sexually abusive and i don't know if i want to come in contact with anyone who's like eagerly dangerous. Yeah i think like with dues. It's one thing with women like people are really trying to hurt us like he's not like a normal normal thing. You know like people really <music> her. Yeah i think you know i think it's been really important for me to one like show people that yet asian people do get a lot yeah races this is because they still think that we don't deal with any problems. I think it's really important for me to just prove that yeah we get. We have a lot of problem. I'm wolf and then also to show like yes. I am tough as fuck but if someone comes face to face with me. I don't think that they're necessarily surly. Gonna say any of these things like okay. She's scary but when when people say things i do get upset you know amihai regardless of whoever yeah le- so i don't want people to think that you know like asian women like in order to be us you have to be crazy tough and you loud and what i would just be yeah and that's what i love about like your a._m._a.'s too like i. There's certain girls who write to you being like hey it can be like. I'm actually really ask me anything john j. lo the a._m._a. In terms there's a lot of girls writings who who look to your like. I'm actually really shy like how can i be like a champion for these things in your always very kind and answering that like you were. We're allowed to be shy. You're allowed to be authentically you know and can you give that little spiel to for. Maybe like almost shy girls out there. I think it's important for us to know like if you're going to be authentically asian like that you know like white people. Don't go and sit around and be like how am i supposed to act in order to surver- tapes like they just exists yell. They're just allowed to exist. I don't want us to be like in order to be a proper asian in order to be like a leader of a movement in in order to be part of like everything that's going on now. You have to be like a crazy bitch. You know i think i grew up. The way grew up because like like i'm fujianese. That's just how we are but if you are not like that you don't have to be like that and you don't have to live on comfortably like the best way that we could live is just not like tugged around by any stereotypes or whatever like you know because at the end of the day if you're living in your thinking like okay. This is the stereotype. I'm i'm going to just do the opposite to be like a proper good asian american representative like that's still being influenced by this white. Wait narrative that people have have you know the people in power who dominated our story. Yeah like would still be controlling who we are yeah so i think authenticity is the most subversive thing you can do. Just live however you want says we talked a lot about like people all outside of our own <hes> asian american community like that kind of affects what you do and so on and so forth but i think one of the main things that <hes> it's a discussion to be had is do asian american men like openly support asian american women and like <hes> <hes> masculinity versus like feminity so i think that's one topic dat. You no doubt that i think we should talk about since we do have like like to asian men in his room lesion asian women in his room yeah so <hes> yeah lights. I feel like you have a lot of like fact towards yes alexa port and why certain things away all you know so to kick it off right like as an asian american men <hes> <hes> there are certain things that i didn't really understand until i became a young adult. 'cause you know as you mentioned. I grew up in queens where being an asian american men then never really like had an issue with me. You know i mean it wasn't like i was never like we're never made aware amongst amongst each other like amongst my home from other as like there's like the bad driver job to the the small dick show but i'll hit him back with like show like you got got like uranium in your yard. You know what i mean. If you're if you're like from the middle east is your black like. I'll crack jokes about you being black. You know what i mean like so it was never like hike like serious. It wasn't like it was like really believed that jewish people are gonna pick pennies. We didn't believe that but it was like a joke. You know what i'm saying. The monks the homeys rate but as i got older like having conversations with sern like even amongst asian females like i had a homegrown told me like jake but like you know. I don't know if i want to date asian do because there's like me. Fucking my cousin was like the fucking zamin. I like saying why people fucking people like they fucking cousins. Jose like logic does not make any sense to me and there's no way that you're defending the logic. There is something that is inherently wrong with the way that you perceive media well whatever it is but yoda's. I don't understand that so like does that point join and then there's like asia manda feel like even vic. They've been victimized so they kinda like lash out against asian women. If they outside they racing show which is like some wild shit shit because whoever the fuck you one that's also. I don't know if asian men really understand because i get half of half bone. Lot of the shit i get on the internet is from asian man. You know what i kind of like <hes> we do have a tendency like especially sern asia. Men have a tendency to like is weird because a lot of them. They're not like there's a lot of them. I notice they're not really grew up in like a traditional asian household like they you don't even speak their native tongue then they might say some wild shit as if like they came from like nine thousand nine hundred sixty s career. Do people understand like ah like not being allowed to date out of your race like that's anti miscegenation which is exactly what that means. That's that's exactly what white white supremacists want. That'd be different from them. You know that again anti miscegenation nation basically what k._k._k. Bakke wants yo. Y'all got to stop that. They don't look the white. Supremacists don't want mixing. If your goal is for like asians to stick to asians you can never ever ever like anyone else. You're playing into that too. You know i think like we have to understand like yet. No one should should date out of social responsibility. Yeah that's not a thing and like love isn't love has nothing to do with social responsibility. You just fall in people's. Call it falling falling in love because it's like a yeah accidental thing. It's not a planned ass thing. You know it's like you can't make people doing <hes> so so yeah i just i think that there is so much misguided anger when we talk about dating and interracial officials aiding and how we perceive asian women versus asian men. I think that when asian men lash out at me. I don't necessarily go after them because because i understand where comes on so tell us where we're combs late. I get that you know like even now like statistically you can prove move like a dating apps dating. I think okay cupid or something like that. Asian men were the least desirable so that is true. That is israel hit. My mom told me statistic because she has two younger brothers will. She was like yo jackie concerned about you and your brothers. This was when i was in high school cool and she was like did you ever feel like you know like less of yourself as an apparent according to want statistic dogs are more favored by women in america than asia men basically lisa like asian men were better than like asia in terms of women who was like black women that was right. Women were the most favored the most because we're so like sexualizing finish and so like i that's that's why i don't necessarily early go after asian because i i heard that might get where it comes from because it does suck you just like try to do everything in your life and no one no one wants to. There's there's several different institutional reasons to. There's a lot more research than i'm just gonna explain here but i think think a lot of this has to do with our immigration laws the so the very very first immigration law that ever discriminate against anyone of any race was the chinese exclusion act shinobu from coming in and just a bunch of dudes chinatown. Just basically it banned. Any chinese workers put a ten year moratorium on enriching. He's workers coming to the u._s. <hes> and so that means that our traditional sense of masculinity has a lot to do with how we feel the the ability to create a nuclear family but if asian men couldn't get their women from china you're unable to create that nuclear family and also of matthew elliott cutoff yeah and then in hollywood i think is in the nineteen thirties there was something called the hays code which was an anti misogynistic law where people onscreen could not like an asian man could not be on screen with another race and so right there you have you know laws saying saying that there's no mixing in front of the camera and so- asian men couldn't be desirable roles yeah there wasn't there like an actor india andy oh and then he actually played a lot of like the asian lover exotic land like the white woman would fall for and he was pretty masculine but i think he wants to europe. I think americans should i think there's a i can't remember what the reason why he actually went there but he fought in the war to patriot to yeah he wasn't jae shutouts but he like yes or he wasn't able to be on screen and all because you couldn't because of the hays code <hes> and so there are all these is reasons why we're unable to see like okay you. You're not onscreen. You can't be with your people so like at the end of the day this idea of <hes> very very <hes> sexless undesirable asian man is gonna come up and you know even after all these things are repealed or whatever and the exclusion damage has been done yeah the damage has been done and then you know hollywood did nothing to correct any recent years <hes> and you know that on the day we are still going through immigration shit and we are still going through. You know issues with casting people on screen. There are so many things just haven't been changed yet so i'm so i'm always hesitant to be like oh fuck you. Man who are attacking me like what are you know because i get like that that sucks i get that but at the same time we have to recognize like asian asian women didn't do this exactly like the white people who were in power pass this really really racist exclusionary <unk> act like that happened asian women didn't do that. You like like people who ran hollywood who obviously were not asia and because we still don't even run hollywood past the hays code asian women did not do that to you so it sucks when when you're getting a lot of hate and you're like all these asian people are like definitely definitely fucking a white guy whatever which is also just like if you're gonna come at me with insults and stuff like i like truly i want pew research to just do the demographic breakdown of all the people i fucked because you will see that you know like take on a._m. Statistically i am down with asian. Men saw talk like i hate when people attack me for that because that's not even true yeah you know but even if it was like who the fuck are you saying. Thank you know. It's almost like you have to like flash like a car. That look like i like mostly fuck asian men. Can i joined and can i be the voice of asian people now like it's. I just feel like that's been the responsibility. It's been put on because it's so strange but i do think like you know it's just been <hes> but to flip on the flip side like i do like this is just from a personal experience. I think there was a point when i remember like light like i was getting like and meal mark a group of friends who was like oh like jay ki- like he him and his crew only bang would hang widow the asians. You know me like oh. You're only hang with other asians. This was coming from like specific types that was like you know like only dating outside of asian americans. You know what i'm saying like you know. There was definitely like i think now the narrative has changed amongst asia-america dating hanging out like you only hang would asians you only date asian community and my thing was yes. That's exactly all racist do that and oftentimes. I was getting dan that flack from like asian women that were dating out of their race. You know what i'm saying like so that was just from my personal experience so like when certain asian women like and did say like were starting to say like yo asian pri- like asian does asian does while we say even on this podcast i was like yeah wasn't with me showing in the gym you know saying like yeah wasn't down with this shit like ten years ago before crazy. Ridge agents say well. Here's definitely a level of truth to it could be just my truth but you know like i i. I think that there is a level of truth but it's also because we're consuming the same media to where it's like okay. We're also not seen as has desirable people on your soul. Someone else seems hogan. I was like i don't blame you. If you fantasize dating johnny depp and brad pitt you know what i'm saying like yeah like how can i hate you for that. You know saying like we didn't watch korean dramas growing up. You know what i'm saying to understand where it comes from. I think like now and like i talked to a lot of my girlfriends who you know like have in the past only dated white guys or like just other. I feel like it's always spin like like all other raises racist minus asian yeah but like i talked to them now and they're always like you know. I wish that when i was coming up in dating like like i didn't have this mentality because it's it has changed because there is more representation there is like a is an actual difference between like who you know a lot of them used i used to go for and who they would have gone for if they weren't in relationships or whatever now you know. I think a lot of people have regrets that they're like. They closed off their dating pool like that too. Yeah you know but it's it's just like more proof of you have to have more representation for so many different reasons no yeah yeah i totally agree and one thing that i also talk about is it. Everything really does go. Both ways of asian women get attacked for like like let's say majority dating like outside their race right white men like into look levels that are like unspeakable but then you have steve mckee jon chu alan yang as he's on sorry these asian men who are very successful who all outside their race is it's like such uh-huh okay <hes> okay so like there is also a lot of asian men who feel like once they've like bagged a white chick or something like horse. That's like a validation for them. Yeah that's like the pinnacle of success and i i've definitely dated guys before where they're like yeah. I actually usually just wait when like yeah. There's some special missile agent point. Those were also the same age and do your jackie only hang out with asian as if like your family family is wrong with that at the end of the day that's still saying the goal is white people better like if you you think that your you know something special because like you're with like a white like at another day you're just saying that linguine people are best and that's the goal for asian american. Take absolutely not true and to that point to like. I don't blame does dudes either now in hindsight because i was like oh that's the media that you were fed. If you felt like you were long duck dong and you know what i mean and you earn gandhi check at the end of the movie and the short end the end of the movie was a cute girl lack. I would think to myself like damn. I kinda wanna you know like that would be like my destination. That would be a sign of success. You don grew up watching a s._a._s. Pinker like me washing korean dramas as like me like asian short. He's like me you know what i mean. I had a really good conversation with jake about this and he pointed alloys from elmhurst as like one of the purest most like kind people i've ever interviewed in my life about jake troy's an actor actor for those of you guys that don't know he's single parents. He was in the sun is also a star <hes> but you know he's saying like our ideal of masculinity in america is the man dominating a woman you know like specifically western masculinity is very much like how like this game of lake dominating the chick and so like we we need to change our definitions of masculine like any sign of femininity like i don't know i think even though k pop is having having a rise. I don't think that people that accepting of like k. pop groups or whatever because like there's the their idea of masculinity is different from western masculinity <hes> and so like any sign of like you know makeup or whatever that they wear like is going to be seen as you know you know like asian. Asian men are playing into some. I don't know like you're you're less masculine. It's no draw. Jainism has existed in american pop music. Princes like prince was gained all the fine six. Today's double standard asia definitely a double standard when agent people do it. You're going to see you're going to think it's weird or whatever you know and like i think that like because there's any sign of femininity in there like they're not going to be seen as masculine and i think that's an issue because like our ideas and methylene are varied like abusive. It's like like if you think about like the guy has to be stronger and taller and and this and that or whenever you know that's not necessarily true you know like i. I think k pop hopefully like with more of an audience. I'm hoping it can change. I mean i i interviewed c._v. Okay about this young gets. It's proving to people that masculinity should be more fluid the the main channels of like like billboard the grammys to that like it's still are not going to recognize as legitimate artists have they. They make all the money that the yeah it's very much like proof of like where society's at still the day like yeah yeah. Asians don't need to like when when we talk about like idiot rising and like what they're doing. They're not getting any grammys. Whatever but you know they're making enough money but like they are they are they're artists accepted or are they still going to be seen as like asian like your subgroup and it's not going to be part of his means nothing the a._d._a. Rising is a different conversation because those guys are the market the artist as like they're from china. They're from here. They're from their joji yeah so to that point. The double standard is like adele from england and she's fine. You know what i mean like so like. I think that's kind of the irony like y b._t. As wouldn't be accepted. You know what i'm saying. Just singing a different language you know the i mean yeah even like d'esposito the hottest song of last summer or or something like that i mean they're they're seen as soda from from k pop yeah because machines mo- mall i mean i think there's so much that we impact today and a lot of things that need to be unpacked. Even more. I would love to do a part two or something like that. Maybe with <hes> a past guest. <hes> just really think masculinity feminine. Anything is something that is so divisive in our community right now. <hes> it's just the fact that i've experienced it before like every woman. I know who tweeted something on twitter. Let asia asian has had a similar experience and it's it's quite scary gary and and i know that like oh like sons scary in terms of like i've also gotten threats is like just literally just just like tweeting ray-ban from random people who find me and let's get on twitter. She sounds like you're arcing. Some wild shit and no one's gonna exactly tried to repeat the but is i just number wise. I just wanna commend you for like the courage just like i don't know how you do it every single day how i would be scared to write these stories into be like submit ah for it to be out in the world like all right here we go. I'm gonna take another beating which is like yeah. There's definitely time. I just feel like maybe like this is the world telling me i don't believe in our newsroom or like because it is just kind of like i know i always joke about this with other writers like can people just call me like a con it in not like make it race. Can i just get like a regular a regular enthrall like i just you know like it. It is so like it just makes you feel like so degraded engine that you know i mean if anything like this is the best time for any of us. Were especially a person like you to be doing. What kind of work that you doing. You know what i mean because you're doing a great job of like if you if you get if you get a reaction out of somebody you doing son right you know saying i mean i also am just like really aggressive general this great. It's also like i feel like i come off like on. I think you're regressive. News is like supported with like actual facts ignorant an ignorant aggressiveness. Just like you know a short. He just wants to pick a fight for for no reason you are are considered like i consider that righteousness not aggressiveness. You're saying yeah yes trying to correct people into the right direction yeah. I think that like the only way to kind of do this is to tell people like yes asian-american like you have to be aggressive hell to be like asian. American is worthy of being covered covered in being part of the mainstream media is worthy of will you should understand that we're not basically white like you kind of have to go out at like super loud or else like no one will hear. You haven't heard us for so long. You know so it's like the only way to do it is to is to be yeah and i admire that so much about you and you yeah and just i when you grow up asian and there's an element of like respecting respecting your elders and holding your tongue and <hes> i don't know how to do it but like korean there is definitely that you're celebrated for being quiet and <hes> when they see people like you just like being so unapologetic which i think best describes. Your spirit is so inspiring to me <hes> so yeah window. Let you please all are like really hold back here. Yeah i'm fujianese at like it makes sense like uh-huh oh. They were cut cut the line in the supermarket. No manners manners and that's totally fine. This is about my my experience but you know you could argue about that but that's i mean that's the stereotype and like if i'm talking on the phone with my mom or something i am screaming is just like yeah. It's like we're not mad. It's just like literally literally incapable of talking to another chinese person without being like yeah scream <hes> it's time okay. Hey something happens wouldn't like you. Don't care as a person you don't care. You know like i am. Damn loud. Whatever and like you know probably cost way too much but i still want all those like really really traditional things. It's okay to want that to like you know if see like little asian b._b. On subway i get sad com family yet that like really you're twenty six. I'd like your parents while you have like the family delake children and like the the like cultural markers of success says like for asian people. I feel like it's very very much. Family really become a hallmark channel things at the end. It's family yeah but you know like it's okay to be like that too and like also like visa versa. It's okay not mutually exclusive. It's okay to aspect your parents parents talk really nice yeah well speaking of parents and the people who matter in your life <hes> those are like sesame oil <hes> so i took that from jacob right <hes> but there are rapid questions that we ask all of our guests and and one of them is what is the most significant relationship in your life and it doesn't have to be romantic significant relationship. I think the most important patrols shut all the trolls. Yes <hes> no. I think the most important person who's like shaped everything that i am is definitely my dad because like even though like i think he proves like yoneda education or anything like you can be super super wise about things and like also i think so my dozen interesting dude because i think a lot of traditional families really really want like or want boys you know dad dad is always just like i think part of it is his misunderstanding about how biology works and that if he had boys they wouldn't be bald. He's bald so he was like. I just want this weird because i have so much care. I m my hair. Yeah it was right. I make up for all in our family but yeah that's what they like. He's always been the type of guy who's like oh. Did they speak the they talk back to you. You just go up to them and you say fuck you like yeah. I remember like any conflicts or anything. My dad will give me advice that are like you. You go up to your boss like flip them. Burn and you say merry christmas to their face looks like none of this would ever go well and like a corporate setting but he definitely taught me like if something is not right and you say something you don't put your head down or none of that like you have to say something. You don't sit there and take it. I just don't do that and so i grew up like like you know like that probably explains a lot of my social media or like you know just how i am because we were never like my dad. It was never that asian guy who's like someone cusses you out. You're just gonna not talk won't cost trouble. He's humphry you yeah until like that was really really important and then also just that blick ready. He's like he's got an off anytime his feminist without knowing it to you know it's like he's always just been like okay. Okay like you know like you don't you don't necessarily need anyone. You are the best and it's always been like his thing whether it was like you know something like professionally going wrong or like like relationship wise like he'd always just don't forget you are the best you're better than everyone else. You don't don't let they make you think that you're not you know and so i think for me. That was so important because i think you know there's been a couple. I have a pass has been a couple couple. Things like definitely screwed up my head but if you have someone in the beckley champing you hey man yeah telling you don't take any of it. You know yeah. I think that was really important and so like half of like my success i think is like owed to that type of energy being being in my life all the time like you're better go. Do it. People fuck you overt no like you're going to point out like you know. I think that was so important. Film sound so awesome doubt so i mean i guess you kind of explain your you kind of answered the question already. What would you say is your personal mantra. My personal mantra i mean yeah. It is kind of just like. Don't let anybody anybody fuck you over. Yes upstairs. Don't let mainstream media over only the we have to talk about us. We have to just say you know you know that's it. That's great well. Let me say no. Thank you so much again for joining us. This is amazing and i learned so much and it's i'm having bekker's like all the huffpost articles that i've read like that list definitely read britain by now but you know just on an anecdotal anecdotal myself articles like to pitch stories here to say like this is surprising and these are stories that matter pulse wrote about it uh-huh yeah can we basically you know asian american group big story thanksgiving but <hes> no so that was so wonderful <hes> and so obviously we can find you on huffpost and see your lovely articles. But where else can you find you to send you love ct. Kimmy the poo and white e._e._g. Pio age or you being so quiet all rough. You're always view because especially you're writing about like policy like the bills and stuff but i'm tweeting from kimmy them i didn't have to be. I'm going to be like a professional like you know in college. I was just like that's true again twitter. You know it sounds like weird to say good as long as you got the bleak next and then also on a._t. Rate also nike nike yes okay so yeah. I mean once again. We like to welcome. Thank you for joining those kind of humid. It's sunday <hes> six nine per pound podcast. You could find us on all streaming platforms apple spotify. Not a lot of people got spotify love. I realized lies and miguel out here. You know really doing our thing soundcloud stitcher and last but not least anchor you know what i mean. They show you tune in on all platforms. You few can make sure you hit the subscribe button and yo- as we mentioned if you've bangor does if you listen to our episodes if you tweet about as you know what i mean share about autozone his grandma i'm sure kim you're going to do that <hes> since now she's on episodes so yeah make sure you followers and supporters man six ninety nine per pound podcast out pays pays base.
"Hey it's all Denardo and I'm Alina Sanni from Huffpost Canada you're listening to born I think you can use to to express eugene who came to Manitoba with her parents when she was very young I asked her to tell us about all respect you it's spelled y e you intimate love you wouldn't use you to describe your or that feeling of you that very deep intimate love she kept dating but couldn't I love that you would show to a partner that you're no longer with a friend Kim made that conscious decision to be single and to find out what it's like to fall in love with herself and so this is the kind of love already part of your family or they've become a part of your family but for Kim there's a problem so it's very hard to explain and exists right how we're starting today I feel like the real answer is I mean I also WanNa save course I love myself I love everything about me but it's been good to yourself because you are inherently deserving of it but it's easier said than done on learning so we're spending this episode on Packing Self Love and just listen at your own discretion this is selfish like if you took time and do something that was like fun fulfilling but I'm not lonely the first time I heard it was Kim Bo you heard atop the show I'm alone but I'm not lonely I I'm working my job I have she's always been able to face external pressure and just be so confident in her because the way Canadians understand self love is through self celebration and indulging and I think a common emigrant mentality is about striving for better like twenty it's all about which is embracing all aspects of yourself laws and all did not accepted never settle for less right it's easy to think that your it was always answered with because I'm smart because I'm talented or whatever it was never because moved out yet I don't know if I'm ever going to move anytime soon so the things unsuccessful an invaluable are through material possessions or things if I'm ever GonNa buy a house or have a family or any of these you know standard pillars oh and that's what I can afford right now exactly bath bond with Uber's drinks a snack when you add all of it together lots of judgment in that yeah but it's what makes me feel good and I don't like doing these things makes you feel closer to self love hygiene it when I really think about it getting to a place where I'm really happy with on a shopping spree but that's not going to answer things like why do certain people in my family do I have a lot of resentment for certain people because take take advantage of living with my parents and not treating loving myself and being the best version of myself I don't times leads into dangerous territory one thing I deal with is Ita Shin which is basically self love ever seems to pierce it like no matter how much trying to work on it like my mom as I mentioned is the most self loving person I know self I try to say to myself so whenever I'm faced with an intrusive thought lately I've been verbally spending late nights as much as I used to okay that was a bit heavy not going to lie your and my family's from Congo my parents moved from the Congo at a young age Josephine noticed something was happening your burdens really quite exhausted just wants to termed oppression anymore but I knew I was depressed made her feel awful about her body so she started pulling away from all of her friends teachers noticed it one day my father actually because they thought I was depressed my father he told me this and when he because we go through a lot of hardships we've around me say different variations of it oh you're in a first year in this and I should really be inspired by this because I'm in Canada woke up and she couldn't move a muscle I can get out of bed and were months where I fought like as I can't hide it from myself now because I'm in bed and I can't get up and I had to seek help as an adult because under father used to say was painful but just been realized that he was trying to be supportive eighty you is that you can do it you can overcome is that no matter what I'm going through now Josephine's love for herself is informed by the knowledge that she has self worth hurt you clearly need extra hands around the house get better and to help you with the baby or whatever expressed correctly in my opinion I do believe until health because I've witnessed read about take my and our PC communities which is absolutely beautiful art you know our children like it's not okay to tell our children call myself fat I just feel I could spend in from me it's okay I'm here for you selfless feels uplifting light the realization that you have bad days and good days and then you're going to be fine surrounded and practice it every single day and it doesn't have to be expensive or vich shirt but without learning who you are and accepting the things you can't change are forming acts of service for the people I care about it's kind of my love language so I do actions love and everyday habit comedy Murphy quarterback is a theater coordinator I remember the first time I drank I was ten years old and I was sipping a tiny everything just making sense when I started drinking because my relationship with alcohol is still something I think about nearly every attornal grandparents they're Noni and Dadi immigrated a lot each of Khamenei's were their mothers spent most of her childhood before their grandfather decided to move back to India Candida again moving a constant theme in comedies life raised had time to sink their roots in or even talk about their roots stuff. I I don't even know I literally smile and nod when folks make the jugs because and they can see the two distinct cultures but that's just not the one that I've had everything was new I guess you a sense of rudeness a sense of place sense of time a sense of who you that foundation that things like self love come from you don't really know yes you will absolutely or I absolutely used it as a way was the coping mechanism that for awhile made them feel good but when drinking became thousand movements and you know cultural questions of not knowing who or what sensation was there and it kept chasing it I would wake up delirious in the morning managed to get myself to work would be hurt you much always to Brown oh which what I really liked about them was when they erased me existing don't know who you are what you are where you're from how do you answer any of that and then introduce coming off of that drug into this new space so I was conscious for them they lost what ten fifteen minutes and I would wing every day multiple times a day it's just bizarre and you still go to it. I still think about alcohol ways to deal with past trauma comedy is now two years into sobriety learn how to be a person to cope with stress how to figure out what was safe oh okay there are practical skills to learn how to sit in a body in a way that's actually kind of comfortable and therefore I have time hours every single day seven days a week when I was running away from what was it like what did you do with your day. The last time it was over I was asking and she described meditation and how it's a constant practice that you're genitive every day slot was really cool to get this this cultural snippet it's nice to hear commonly found a place that works for them it really is. I'm so super open today I thought the way you shared about your mom was so beautiful and I'd L. D. Mato Enemy Alicia Sanni our producers are tk Matanza. Stephanie Local Freight Studios. Big thanks to today's guests Kim Bo Josephine this episode checkout half post tune in for our next episode it and.
Episode 331: Lydia Polgreen
"Hello. Welcome along podcast a maximum ski. I'm here with my co hosts Aaron Lamour and Evan Ratliff, gentlemen. Lou hallo. I see that the tape on your water bottle matches her the tape on our mics. Daiwa man. Same source. Okay. Same roller tape. Get a lot of tape out of one real as we move into our sixth steer this podcast moved on the observations of become credibly Monday. Who's on the show this week this week on the show is the editor in chief of huffpost Lydia poll green before that she was the head of the New York Times global for that. She was a reporting from Africa for years. She's a really interesting career. We talked about how she got into the stuff and those jobs at the time and also her current work running huffpost. Yes, strange time to be a crossing paths with the huffpost story. Yeah. Not intentional. No, she unintentionally either random she. And I we booked as a long time ago, and she's very busy. So we couldn't do it until now and in the subsequent time, perhaps part of the reason that she was so busy was that. Huffpost was going through all the changes, they laid a bunch of people off couple weeks ago. And we talked about that an an a whole host. Of other things. Do you subject her to this freezing studio? Yes. Yes. I will knowledge. The heat is out in the office. Thank you for being that my attention. Okay. I didn't know if you knew else's constantly constantly. I know that bureau employees, it wouldn't be like the kind of people who would be comfortable enough to let you know, something like that. I I asked him aided. It was maybe forty just about forty degrees. You're sitting into particularly cold spot. A fish. You should have slumped to warmer water. I can't feel my hands. Max. If you are looking to heat up in boxes everywhere with an Email newsletter. I say again if you're only going to heat up. You got it with an Email newsletter? I there's no better way to do it than with Mel champ they integrate with everything every time I'm sending Ed for something. I could just activate my mail chimp in there. I can't remember what it was setting this week. But it was just like right there. Just a check box click of a button sign into Malcolm and people can sign up to your Email newsletter. Keep it hot spicy. Here's max with Lydia poultry. Lydia max, thanks for coming on the program. I'm really glad to be here. Metoo longtime coming this one. We have been corresponding about this for a long time on multiple platforms multiple platforms. Yes, you're well. You're multi-platform person. I am though increasingly less so like a lot of people I've basically pulled entirely back from Facebook. I'm still on Instagram. I guess, but that's mostly for the pictures of dogs, and I've gotten really into bread baking and for me like watching videos of people make bread shape. Dough score their loaves before they go into the oven is like, I guess the kids call it ams ours. That's like my as your happy place. It's my happy place, you know, and like all journalists onto Witter, I often find ourselves dialoguing. You're super on Twitter. I have pulled back a little bit late. Yeah. And I, you know, for it's so funny like my relationship was social media was really shaped by when I came to it. And where I was in my life when I came to it tell me about that. Well, I I got I got my first Twitter account when I was based in west Africa for the New York Times. And if you're a reporter for an American newspaper based in a really far flung place, the internet becomes really really important as a way to connect back to the conversation that's happening in the place that you came from. But also as Twitter became a thing, it became a really important place to be tapped into the conversation that was happening around you at the places that you were gonna cover. So I think I got on Twitter when I was in west Africa and was. Just about to head to India. And it was when Twitter was awesome before it started to really suck. And you know, it's fun Twitter. It was fun Twitter. But it was also kind of early Twitter in India where you know, all of this kind of pent-up desire to communicate and broadcast. And this is particularly true in countries that have a long history of like press regulations, and broadcast licenses are tightly held and people felt really squelched like they couldn't speak, and, you know, so for me to come to social media in that kind of environment made it really really exciting. And it also meant kind of accountability for my reporting in a way that is unusual for foreign correspondence. Right. You know, when I was a kid living in west Africa, and we can come back to why I was living in west Africa. When I was a kid. I would see these like major events unfolding in front of me like Ghana's transition from military rule to democracy. And you know, I couldn't. The New York Times story about it. Because like the internet didn't exist, then what did exist, but I certainly did not have access to it. We didn't even have a home phone, right? And so I I would think about like whatever the foreign correspondents were writing about these events. There was no way for to be like, hey, actually, like, these are the people you should be talking to or hey, you've gotten this completely wrong. And particularly as you know, as a Representative of a really powerful news organization in a part of the world that doesn't get that much attention. I think that the accountability of the people around you being able to not only reader journalism in real time. But also tell you what they think about it in real time on an open platform is great discipline and often results in better journalism. So I was initially like an incredibly enthusiastic adopter of Twitter. And I felt like wow. This is a great tool for transparency in ability for particularly for people like me who would jet into a country land there write a story about it. And like, what do I? I know. I mean, I tried to do my job. Really, well, but I really welcomed that accountability. Of course, a lot has changed since then say feeling that spiel was basically like Jack Dorsey dream journalist pitch on Twitter for a while. That's exactly what it was right is all about unintended consequences in what happens when we allow platforms to become too powerful. Or they're built in a way that allows them to be co opted by people with really bad intentions. Gimme your current feelings drugs, you if you've dialed back interested in how because I think of you as someone his pretty dialed. I think that I have become much less kind of loose on Twitter and think a lot more about how things I tweet will be perceived particular moment like this where we're gearing up to cover a presidential campaign, and we are dealing with a deeply polarized. You know, fractured society, not only in the United States. But in other places where huffpost is present the New York Times when I worked there, and I was a correspondent at the New York Times for ten years, and you know, spend a total about fifteen years working there. I was just one person with a, you know, who'd be out in the field reporting about something and my opinions, they probably pushed the envelope a little further than my bosses at the time would like, but it wasn't that big of a deal to the institution. And I do think about it a little differently now than I'm the editor of a publication. But post is not the New York Times. Right. I mean, you know, we come from different concern Listrik ethos. So I think there's less of an expectation that. The editor in chief. I mean, the executive editor of the New York Times doesn't tweet. And that's that. He's made. I don't know. If Marty baron tweets, I think it's very occasionally. And like with extreme reserve. I mean, another aspect of this is you don't want to be captured by Twitter the other part of it. I was gonna ask you like you big important job in shit to do. Yeah. Kate kid get off your phone, and you could sit in the phone is the least of it. Right. You could sit in front of tweet deck with, you know, those huge columns in front of you just like whizzing by all day and literally piss away all your time. Yes. Very very easy to do. And when I was a foreign correspondent and was sort of a alone wolf in my pajamas, you know, working at home on stories. I like many writers would progress Nate by spending endless hours sitting in front of Twitter, and that's just not possible anymore. I just have like so many other things to do. But the other way in which I mean captured by Twitter is just letting Twitter become your assignment editor letting Twitter. Make you think that you have a pulse on what's actually going on in a place or with the situation, letting Twitter dictate kind of the parameters of the debate that I think is particularly problematic, and that's something that I've had to really really pull myself out of how did you how did you end up in west Africa, the kid, I my dad worked in international development, his background was in agriculture engineering and vocational education, and he he basically would work for different international aid organizations development organizations on projects to help mostly people in the cultural sector in east and west Africa improve yields of their crops, or you know, get things to market more easily. So that that's what. Took us there in part, the reason even beyond his work in the reason that he chose that kind of work is that my parents were behind is and in the behi- faith. There is an expectation that missionary work is basically undertaken under one's own steam. So it's not like if you're part of a church, and they, you know, all raise money and send off a pastor to be a missionary in a country. They essentially call on believers to go to places, and you find work and figure out how to spread the faith that way, I should say that I myself and really no one in my immediate family is still a behind. But that was a big part of my growing up, and for people who aren't familiar, it's a it's a religion that I guess I would say it has the same relationship to Islam that Christianity has to Judaism and has a lot of wonderful beliefs in it in is a great religion. I just happened not to be a believer. When did you decide that? I think I was never a believer to be honest. I've always had a tremendous facination with faith, and I think a tremendous amount of envy for people who felt deep faith. But never felt it myself for reasons that I I honestly can't explain I think that partly I grew up in a pretty like cerebral household, and in a lot of ways the by faith is a very cerebral religion. And therefore once I sort of had my own consciousness as young person, I was just much more drawn to science to philosophy to literature and things like that. I was ever moment. Read like told your folks like I'm not into it. Yeah. I mean, I think that anything I just kind of drifted away. And you know, the the by faith has like pretty, you know, despite seeming like quite a progressive religion on issues like race and equality of men and women, you know, there were there were two dealbreakers that as I came into Adelaide scence, just it became clear that they were going to be unacceptable to me one is a prohibition on the use of of alcohol and intoxicating drugs of any kind, and you know, as a teenager, I discovered alcohol and marijuana and intoxicated. And that that became a little bit untenable, and it also does not have very progressive teachings around homosexuality. And so, you know, when I started coming into the consciousness of myself as a queer person that wasn't gonna work. And ultimately, I think that led to mine tire immediate family, abandoning the faith. What was it like growing up in in also? Also africa. So we we moved to Kenya. When I was four years old. I should say my mother's from Ethiopia, although we never lived in Ethiopia. And so I'd kind of grown up in my father's a white American from Minnesota. So, you know, I'm biracial I'm like, literally African American and we moved to the and my parents actually met any THEO when my dad was an exchange student, and then came back to the US got married. My brothers, and I were born here in the US in when I was four we moved to Kenya. And did all my grade school years there, and then high school in we came back to the US for bit. My dad did a PHD at the university of Minnesota. So I get to claim that I'm from Minnesota because they spent my agonizing middle school years there Roseville area middle school. So what was it like, I mean, that's a great question. I mean, I think anybody's childhood is like exactly what it is. Right. And you only know what you experience and for me. I think growing up in Kenya. We moved around to a bunch of different places within Kenya. You know, that feels like ancient history in grade school in my memories are sort of fragmentary, but on one level incredibly exciting in ways that must have seen really scary to my parents, you know, Kenya. At the time was governed by this guy, Daniel Moi who was a longtime dictator, and you know, there were secret police and things like that there were coup attempts. I remember one coup attempt. I think I was six years old when it happened, you know, with their tanks rolling through the streets and looting and things like that. But to me felt like really exciting events. But I think to my parents were pretty terrifying. Were you get interested in knowing your six, but like what was Kenyan media like like how to journalism? Mhm come into your life. I mean journalism really came into my life more when we lived in Ghana when I was in high school when I was a little kid. I remember, you know, we living in Kenya. I remember watching the national broadcaster and saying to mom that I thought that the president worked at the airport because you know, they would always show on TV him at the airport greeting going on a on international trip. But you know, we didn't we didn't live in a connected media saturated world, right? I mean, I I spent a year as a kid living at a rural agricultural college where my dad was teaching, you know, some dairies science class or something. So I I feel like as a little kid. I was very kind of untethered. My dad was always a an enthusiast for the latest latest technology. So while we were living at this rural? Call hedge he managed to at one point bring home as CD player in CDs were brand new at the time. This was the eighties, of course. And he. He I think he had three CDs, and they were Paul Simon's Graceland a Fleetwood MAC's greatest hits, and I think a Lionel Richie CD. So I'm not really answering your question about news media. But like that was it was my culture, you know, that and, you know, running around barefoot in the mind in agricultural college now, and when we moved to Ghana, you know, where I was a young teenager. I I must have been twelve or thirteen when we moved there. You know, it started to have a much greater political consciousness, and again on that on that note of political consciousness, you my dad, you know, who is I said is a is a white American was very conscious of raising three black children outside of the context of of America. And so a lot of my cultural education had to do with him. And because he also knew that my mother was an African not an African American and he knew that we would eventually have to go back to America to live is. Black people and wanted us to understand what that meant. So you know, I think I was twelve when my dad gave me a copy of the autobiography of Malcolm X said, you really need to read this. So there was this whole sort of curriculum of understanding understanding what it meant to be black in America being taught by two parents who didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just it was just really interesting that for my father's perspective. This is really a crucial thing. He felt he he needed to pass on to us. And how do you do? I did. Okay. I mean, look I. Am very much kind of globalist in my orientation. I have spent most of my life living in contexts where I am a stranger. You know, as a child being in countries that were not my country of birth and not the country of my parents, I spent much of my career in those kinds of environments and even here in America, you know, my claim to Americanise into an identity here. Whether it's as an American or as an African American or any other identity that that you'd wanna talk about is, you know, both as sturdy and his tenuous as anyone's is. So I I do think about you know, sort of where I fit in. But know in that people have who have this kind of life often find themselves wondering, you know, what is my identity where do I fit in? And and weirdly, I I feel like I've gone to the other extreme which is I because I I really never fit in anywhere. I just assume that it's my job to be at home. Everywhere. And that's a really great way to be if you're a journalist because it means that you can go into really any situation and feel like you can navigate it that you can find a way to understand it and not be thrown by by being alien, which journalists truly are, you know, we're outsiders who come in to try and understand from an insider perspective. And then take the story back out and tell it to the world. And and that's always been at the core of who. I am as a person, and certainly a journalist when did you become a journalist? Well, I got me for scoop when I was in high school. I was the editor of the Ghana international school paper, which was called vibes, which I it was actually really great name for the high school paper of an African international school and Ziggy Marley the s-. None of Bob Marley came to town to do a concert. And this was a really really big deal because you know, like, we didn't get many celebrities and Ghana in the mid nineties. I'm sorry in the early nineties. Ziggy Marley was in town. And I wanted to get an interview with him. And I was just absolutely hell-bent that you know, I was going to get an interview it's Marley. And this was going to be on the front page of vibes one week. And so I figured out where he was staying which was a a beach hotel and just kinda staked it out and just kept hanging around and hanging around and all my free time. I'd ride my bike over there after school. If I didn't see him, you know, I'd have to bike home for dinner. And then, you know, my mom would let me go out again in the evening, and just wait, and wait, and wait, and eventually manage to meet some hangers on of his on Toroshin, and and sort of work my way from there and got the interview. So so that was that was exciting about I thank. Efully? There are no extant copies of vibes recording. What was almost certainly an incredibly lame in. I worry that my mom has one somewhere that she's like holding in reserve. I'll Email after this. We'll see if we can get him in the show nuts. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be really really really embarrassing. If you do. So liked writing always liked writing? I'd been a, you know, a really big reader when I was a kid like I just loved books, and you know, reading begets writing in in many people, and so I'd always been interested in writing. So when the opportunity came up to work on the school paper, I I was really excited about it. And ultimately became the editor. But you know, that went to college, and I went to this tiny liberal arts college in Maryland that has his great books program. That's very sort of hermetic, and you know, sort of went back into reading as my sort of like primary thing and stepped away from journalism and Saint John's where I went sort of prided itself on being really kind of outside of of current events and not really thinking about what's going on in the world around us, but really be engaging with you know, Plato and Aerostat in Euclidean, geometry and learning calculus by reading Newton and all that kind of stuff. So I had this kind of like. Four year gap where I really didn't engage with journalism at all in when I graduated in came up for air, I thought, okay? Well, what am I gonna do with my life? And I thought I wanted to go to graduate school and become a philosophy professor because. Because it for the money -absolutely. And also because it's a super easy thing to do getting a PHD. Really lucrative and easy. My favorite combination. So I thought that's what I wanted to do. But I you know, I hadn't taken the the in my senior year at school, and I needed to needed to do that. So it I'll take it your often just get a job, and I got a job working for a lawyer. And remember sitting at my desk, and these are lovely people in nice guy to work for. I remember sitting at my desk and thinking like looking at the clock and just thinking like is like five o'clock in comes soon. So I can like go and like do something interesting. And it was like a bolt from the blue that. I was like I can't live my life. Like this like, I can't be a person who sits at a desk and looks clock. Like, you know, I lived through a attempt when I was six years old like I'm destined for bigger things than this. It wasn't quite that grandiose. But it was sort of like, I know something about the world. And I'm pretty good about being out there ended in navigating it and like maybe the choices that I'm leaning towards or not the right ones for me. So I was chatting with a friend of mine from college who just got an unpaid internship at a magazine in DC called the Washington monthly and he said, well, they need more unpaid interns, would if you're really unhappy in your job like once you come into this. I couldn't really afford to. I you know, I had student loans. I had you know rant needed to eat. But it's appointed myself all through college waiting tables. So like, maybe if I can intern touring the day and wait tables at night, I could do this for three months, and the did, and it was exhausting, but also really fun. But you know, the minute I sort of got my hands on what it was to do journalism and is an intern. I was doing it at the lowest possible level, you know, doing research for writers. You know fact, checking that kind of stuff, but I just kind of. Instantly knew that this was that I'd hit on something that would not cause me to look at the clock. And wondering when the day was going to be over. How'd you get from there to, you know, running bureaus for the time I worked at the monthly for about a year. Eventually, the legendary editor of the Washington monthly Charlie Peters to pity on me and gave me an actual salary when he learned that I knew how to work spreadsheet and could balance the checkbook for the the Washington monthly. So my fish title was business manager. But I spent fifty percent of my time doing that. And then fifty percent of my time doing aditorial work ended up doing that for like your job now. It's sadly true. It really comes full circle. But I spent about a year doing that. And I think Charlie wanted me to stay on and become an editor. But I realized that the pace of a monthly policy magazine wasn't what I wanted to do. And and so sort of on a lark applied to journalism school and very unexpected -ly not only did I get in. I got a full scholarship, and I sort of thought, you know, go and live in New York for a year for free meal. Maybe learn something maybe make some connections. That'll help me get into a slightly higher metabolism for journalism that will lead me somewhere really in bishop's than just yourself that way. No. I don't think. So. I mean, I it's funny. I always have the sense that I was going to do like really really cool stuff because my whole life experience had been one of like, you know, like, my cousins lived in rural Minnesota, you know, an I went on so far, you know, like and hung out with monkeys. And when you're a little kid. You're like, oh, this is really neat. And so I had this sense that I wanted that aspect of my life to continue. But I don't think that I was like ferociously ambitious. I think I felt like I know I can do things. And I know that I have a real taste for adventure in for ideas. And that those two things combined journalism like made a lot of sense. My highest ambition was to become a journalist in Africa and lo and behold, I manage to do that, you know, before I was thirty which was way faster than I thought it was going to happen and happen. I think in some ways almost by accident. But yeah, it I don't think I was particularly emphasis. In fact, I'm not even sure that memberships now. I mean, I I mean, what's my relationship to him Bishen? I'm bishops for stories, right? Like, I'm basis to put ideas out into the world into change things. But in terms of like moving from big job too big job or that kind of thing. That's much. This is all just like an accident that you've had a bunch of big jobs. I don't know that it's an accident. So you know, the short story is I went from Columbia journalism school worked at a newspaper in upstate New York. Worked at a newspaper in Florida, but pretty quickly ended up as a trainee reporter at the times. And and you know, you make your own luck, I suppose, and this is gonna sound like a weird thing to describe as luck. But, you know, pretty early in my tenure at the times, the the Jason Blair scandal erupted and for people who don't remember Jason Blair was a young reporter who was caught fabricating plagiarizing a bunch of stories, and it was a huge huge scandal and controversy. I mean, you look back now anything like that's a media scandal. My point. But as a result of that, you know, what had been this very secretive process of people getting access to really cool jobs. Like, you know, you'd get kinda tapped on the shoulder and told to, you know, hey, are you interested in this job? They created a much more transparent. Basically every open job was posted. And I was really young very new like I just been made permanent staff like a few months earlier, and I put my hand up when the South Africa bureau chief job came open. And I knew that I wasn't going to get it. I mean, you know, two of the past three executive editors of the times had been, you know, been bureau chief since out of Africa Bill Keller dilemma Velde, you know. It's an important position. And I was like a punk kid, but because of the atmosphere at the time, the foreign editor sort of gamely invited me into his office and said happy to talk to you. And I just talked about my passion for reporting. My passion for. It seems silly to say my passion for Africa. I'd actually never been to southern Africa like all of my experience, and whatever could be called expertise was in west and east Africa. But you know, he was sufficiently impressed that he later called me and said, look, you're not getting this job. We're going to give this job to like a grownup, but until we can actually fill it. You know, do you wanna go babysit in the bureau for five weeks? And you know, let's see what you can do. And I said, oh, yeah. Boy, would I like to do that. It'd be amazing. And you know, that was a really really big break. And then that led to being sent to cover the bison tunnel, the Haiti bicentennial which coincided with the big political crisis there and then when the west Africa bureau chief job came open, very suddenly I found myself in that job. I'm gonna tell you. I've just gonna be honest with you. I don't really buy the mission that you're saying. But that's okay. Maybe put it this way different way. Like, it's interesting as soon as you start talking about like because of how you grew up. You're always felt sort of like an outside force you to navigate a place. I know plenty of people work at the times. It's not a super easy place for some people to navigate right? It is its own culture. It is. Did you feel like you could find a way through it in the same way that you refund with through other places? It's really interesting. I think that I was again fortunate in my choices and inclinations in that you have to remember at the time that I went to west Africa, which was you know, the end of two thousand four most of my colleagues who were sort of conventionally ambitious were scrambling to cover the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Right. I mean, this was the a nation at war time of the New York Times. Right. The big story. The major global story was was the conflagration in the Middle East. And I just. And there were you know, fratricidal battles in the Baghdad bureau of the New York Times that have been written about elsewhere over bylines over who is gonna get this embed with this. You know, division of whatever branch of the military, and it's kind of funny that I spent a decade as a foreign correspondent at the New York Times, you know, an foreign correspondent of some complement without ever having set foot in the place that provided the lion's share of global news in that period. But I think for me, I I really I really wanted to be left alone. I wanted to find a place where I could pursue my own ideas and passions and write the stories that I wanted to write without having to worry about colleagues who might wanna Bigfoot me or also without having to worry about editors who had really strong opinions about what the story should be. And the great thing about covering Africa for the New York Times is that there's a huge. Of support for in the abstract. We must have really great reporting from Africa. It's part of the times identity. It's part of the the history of the times to be really committed to reporting on the continent. But there's not a lot of specificity to what that needs to be. You know, it's sort of opposite of being the Jerusalem bureau chief, thank you know, there are a lot of people who have a lot of opinions of what? And I mean within the institution. I mean, there are lots of people outside of the institution have very strong opinions about what the times reporting of Africa should be. But those at that time those voices again presold media, pre a lot of things they weren't really heard so perhaps to concede your point miam- Bishen expressed itself in finding Elaine that felt like a place where I could be myself and to smoke smoking space and run into some open space, and you know, there are lots of different ways to be a correspondent in on the continent. And you know, I did my share of covering, you know, horrific conflicts Darfur Congo things like that. But I always had a real passion for writing about houses Heidi's manage to live together and a tremendous interest in the colonial legacy that the continent was saddled with and how that played out in real time. Obviously, you know, my heritage was having a strong interest in. Economic and social and political development. So I really tried very hard to tell stories about people really affecting their own destinies in in meaningful ways and to get beyond the enlists rape-murder war tribal tensions type of coverage of Africa. And not just like these are in the words of our current president helpless shit holes, but these are really interesting dynamic places with as much richness and empower in their own way as anywhere else. It's interesting to hear you talk about it that way like, you know, I went back and read a lot of that stuff. And also read some interviews with you from that time, and it's very focused on Dr Ford. I just be honestly, I just assumed that that's what we're talk about. What it's like to cover that. It's yeah. I wonder whether you think that a four. Foreign correspondent needs to have some kind of philosophy like that. Like, I feel like what you just outlined was like you had to have some kind of plan or philosophy or interest outside of whatever the sort of like big story will be to make that job work for you. Absolutely. And I think that's true of any kind of journalism. Right. I mean, you can be driven by you know, whatever the news cycle says he could be driven by or you can attend to the new cycle. And then also do things that you feel no one else is going to do in that are utterly distinctive. And whenever I do interviews about covering Africa. The thing that people would ask about whereas conflict. So I talked about a lot right? I mean people here Dr four in. They're like, ooh, tell me more, and it is fascinating. And the crisis in Darfur was you know, had exactly the kind of complex roots that I'm talking about. And I tried to cover it from that perspective. In addition to doing the kind of close up live report. Courting of atrocities and things like that that I think are really important to bring to light. But yeah, I looked now I mean Sudan has been going through an extraordinary political crisis. And there are people being killed everyday on the streets of Khartoum and nobody's paying attention to it. Because Dr four happened to capture the imagination of set of activists in the west it was vaulted out as this this crisis that everybody needed to pay attention to and saved our four became was a hashtag before they were hashtags, but there is a cut bog standard incredibly tragic political crisis playing out as we speak in Sudan right now that literally known as paying attention to which is kind of heartbreaking. But you know, it's funny. I when I look back at my time in west Africa in particular, the coverage that I'm most proud of like nobody ever asks me about a remembers, and that's actually covering Nigeria at a moment of like tremendous transition jury's the most populous nation on. On the in sub Saharan Africa at the time. Maybe one in six Africans was Nigerian, and that ratio is probably only increased, and you know, it's this extraordinary country with a rich history. Literature diversity, obviously, colonial hangover from the British and beyond and, you know, the stories that I did about politics in Nigeria. I think were some of the most important that some of the most important journalistic work that I've ever done because it really was about the things that I care about most which is how to societies figure out how to govern themselves and Nigeria had gone from being a military dictatorship, a really brutal military dictatorship to becoming a democracy and. And I was covering one of the first elections where there would be a peaceful transfer of power. And I remember writing a story about a guy who is running for state governor in his home state, and the stakes furred getting this office were so high that two of his fellow candidates had actually been murdered. And I don't know to me that kind of coverage was the thing that really got me excited, and you know, like, the diehard Africa folks in my didn't have a Twitter feedback, then, but in my sort of Email list serve circles, that's what we really cared about. And talked about a lot. So you have this like a foreign correspondent path lay down front of you like times loved you. You kind of go where you wanted to go. There are people who make their whole lives doing that job and sort of sit down in different places and do the worker talking about all over the world. That's that is their journalistic life. What brought you? Home. It's funny. I I grew up as an ex Pat, right? I mean, I was a kid living in other countries. And. I've always been skeptical of Pat life. There's something sort of slightly deforming about living far from home in this kind of untethered way for long periods of time. I think it affects your character in ways that you don't quite realize like I just feel like I met a lot of people who were kinda running away from something, you know, who maybe they're things that they should have been running away from, you know, maybe it's a terrible families situation or whatever. But you meet a lot of people who spend their lives far from their place of origin people who aren't like quite whole. Yeah. And I even though I love being a foreign correspondent, I kind of knew I didn't want that life, my wife, and I we been together since college, and you know, she's a taco. So she was able to work, you know, in all the places where we moved when we first went abroad, we were in our late twenties and all of the people that we loved and cared about were like. Super jazz to come visit us whether it was in Senegal or in India or in South Africa. But you know, as we headed towards our our forties. People had young kids. They had aging parent the run of, you know, our parents getting older there bunch of reasons why if we wanted to stay tethered to these relationships that were really important to us that we really needed to come back. And so we did. And you know, I think for us that was a tough choice because I really I really love the work, and my my wife really love the work that she was doing. But I also just didn't wanna be a long-term expedite didn't want to be one of those kind of untethered people. Also, you know, you wanna keep growing, right? And the way that you grow as a foreign correspondent is you go to a new place, and you learn it over again by the time you've done that three times. You're like, okay. I understand the process of going to new place in learning all over again. And I don't wanna do it again. And I was offered a job as the deputy international editor, which is a big and important job at the New York Times. And also felt like I done a lot as an individual contributor to journalism, but it was really interested in figuring out how to help others do the work that I did. And that that might be a way to have a different kind of impact in the times was very keen always keen to sort of take talented, reporters and torture them into becoming editors. And I think it's a sort of necessity and some are really good at resisting that and out of a deep sense of love and loyalty and duty to the institution. You know, when ask Teisser it, how long did you sir for what once you came back? How long was before you too? So it was a good question. I think it was couple of years at least, you know, I was deputy national editor. And then as you know, one of the people who. This was all around the period where the times was going through. I think enormous transformation around its digital presence. And you're starting to see a lot more collaboration between you know, the newsroom, and what we used to call the business side. And so I got asked fairly early on to help run a a big kind of joint project between the business side. And the new side to expand the times audience and subscription base around the world. It was actually really fascinating. I mean, I it took me like quite a ways away from the journalism and much more into like product, and engineering and marketing and all that kind of stuff, but it was really interesting a lot of fun, and we launched the Spanish language of the New York Times. You know, I got to spend some time in China with our Chinese language edition that was oughta fun. And you know, look, I never had any attention of leaving the New York Times he started working there in my mid twenties. And I, you know, a fully formed creature of that place and really didn't expect to leave. So why did you go? Well, I think a lot of people I think I went a little bit crazy after Trump got elected. I'd been approached about this job before the election. But I think I think I was sort of intrigued, you know, often imposed to me felt like this really really great platform with a huge audience that really did need a new vision identity and a sense of what it was going to be in the world post, Arianna, Arianna had already left. So it wasn't like there were pushing her out and bringing a new person in it was it was a thing that was looking for anyway density. But Filaret Clinton had won the election. I have a feeling that I'd still be a mid level manager at the New York Times happily doing, you know, working on hopefully important in strategic projects and doing lots of great journalism. But after the election, I just really started to think about about journalism about my role in it about who. Journalism was serving and who was four, and I just became really hammered with this idea that you could create a a news organization that was less about the people left out of the political and economic power quesions, but actually four them, and I started to think about helping and post know, which has this massive audience, and this kind of like tabloid style as a kind of populous tabloid response to the current media moment that we're in and having worked at the time, which you know, is an absolutely indispensable institution. It's an elite product it's a product for people who are educated people who are interested in buying million dollar apartments. And I don't say that as a knock on the times at all. I mean, I, you know, his institutional absolutely love. But, but ultimately, it's a question of sort of who at the end of the day is your customer who is your audience for the people. You're trying to reach. And and I really felt like there was a gap there and just as there has been an enormous can yawning inequality in our society in so many ways you see it in medias. Well, there are handful of legacy media organizations that have survived, and I think in the era of Trump even thrived through charging reader strictly for the content, and that creates an ecosystem in which you really do have these media and have nots, right? You have at the top of the heap. You have news organizations that are really geared toward serving they're paying subscribers and they're public service mission is extremely important and the journalism that the New York Times puts out into the world is not just consumed by their subscribers. Right. A minute sets the agenda for cable news from the things like that. But if the product itself is fundamentally products come to resemble inevitably the people who pay for them, and to most directly meet meet the needs of the people who pay for them. And I just was interested. Unlike the other end of the scale, you know, free to consumer media that I felt there needed to be a place for it. And the seemed like a really interesting opportunity to experiment with that was hard to go hard. If the hardest thing I've ever done is. I remember when that was announced I was spending a little time in the times at that point. And it was surprising. Like in the building. It was surprising. Yeah. Ambition aside, you were like thought of someone who was like going places. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. I think it was hard. It was very hard to give that up. And you know, I mean the times is both like all newsrooms the times is like a family, but the times is particularly like a family because it's it's actually run by family, even though it's a publicly traded company, and you know, I spent my professional life. They're the, you know, these people were were were really my family. So it was a really really tough choice. And but the other thing is change is good. And I really wanted to try something different with my life. And you know, I'm I'm sort of a small c conservative person in a lot of ways, and I felt very comfortable particularly having had a slightly chaotic peripatetic childhood, you know, being tethered to the umbilical cord of the New York Times felt really really comfortable to me. And at this moment when it seemed like the whole world was coming apart to be like, you know, what I'm gonna another myself and see what happens. Felt like something exciting to do. And I haven't regretted it. I mean, I miss my friends at the times I read their journalism occasionally with great envy, given the level of resources that they have. But no, I haven't regretted it for a second. That all makes sense to me like the opportunity to try something different and make something a new for this moment that makes sense to me as an appealing opportunity, but also magin that like in a more specific way there were a lot of conversations before you took that job about what the job would be. And what would be vailable to you? And I'm interested in how close it's like Hyun to that. Like, you did it hasn't gone the way that you were told it would go. I mean, so much has changed. Right. I mean, I think that the overall landscape has shifted dramatically in the last two years in lots of different ways. Right. I think on one level. Yeah. It has largely gone the way that I thought it would in the sense that there were no guarantees. I'd been you know, we'd been very upfront with one another, you know, me and the company that owns at the time it was AOL, and then various mergers and other things have happened. So, but ultimately all owned by Verizon. It was very clear that this was a risk and a gamble because there really weren't any guarantees. There was clearly a huge opportunity, but NADA kind of ironclad. Like, you're gonna have this amount of resources to do this number of things. It was a let's see what we can do with what we've got. And when I took the job, I really said like, I don't expect you to I said, I'm not gonna come in demanding resources. I wanna see what I've got and see what I can do with it. And then feel really good about coming to you. With a case for investment, and you know, that cases gone up that cases gone down based on sort of so many factors both internal and external to the overall environment in which we're living. But it's buying large actually been a really really great experience. I feel like I've learned so much about what it takes to run a newsroom that is lean but ambitious to develop a new voice in a way that feels authentic to what your vision is. But also works with what the thing was when you inherited it how to manage a big unruly group of journalists who have a lot of opinions. And, you know, look, we're going through period in digital media right now where you know, a lot of the venture backed startups. I think are finding themselves struggling to figure out what the future path looks like. And a lot of people were very excited about those venture peck. Organizations. I feel pretty lucky to be part of a big company to be honest. You know, I I think the being part of the under the horizon umbrella actually gives us a lot of flexibility and freedom and support which is great, and there will be a need. And there is a strong audience for great journalism. And you know, that's what I came to post to do. And that's what we're continuing to do. How much of your time like in the pie chart of your of your week? How much time is managing. How much time has journalism and how much time is like talking to higher ups company. It really varies. There are times were like intense engagement with journalism where you know, big stuff is happening and you're in copy, and you're dispatching reporters, and that kind of thing, but like any modern editor in chief. I spend a very significant chunk of my time dealing with you know, what used to be called the business side. You know, just today I spent a huge chunk of time dealing with the engineering team in the product team about a big decision that we have to make related to a big product that we're getting ready to launch and all of the trade offs in pros and cons and. Different ways of storing databases of information, and you know, what are the traffic and revenue implications of making this decision versus that decision. Is it pretty hard Gorelick spreadsheet stuff that I think is a long long long way from you know, covering elections in Nigeria or trumping on foot through the the jungles of Congo to find a tin mine, are you into it or you tolerate like what do you make up in the morning thinking about the journalism or the spreadsheets? I mean, I think it's a combination of both. I think like I'm really driven by desire to create a sustainable model for diverse voices and in journalism, right? Like, I don't wanna wake up one day and find that we have, you know, the New York Times at the top of the heap. You know, cable news and a bunch of like bottom feeding content. Farms, and like, that's it. You know, I I'm really keen to like find some space in there and preserve some space in there, particularly as you've seen local journalism collapse. So to me, I'm really driven by this idea that if we wanna maintain lots of different kinds of of journalism in lots of different voices injured Eliza then you've gotta find sustainable ways to to run journalism companies, and they should all be nonprofits either. I think that model is really important and really good. But hopefully, you'd have some there ideally should be a path. And actually, I think there is a path big corporations spend money on things as part of their corporate social responsibility all the time. You know, you can say, oh, they're just doing it because it's like guilt money or whatever. But I think it's a really interesting challenge to big corporations to say, hey, you're putting all of this money into these platforms Facebook, you know, Google are. Are they actually creating a stable environment in which you can actually do your business or should you be spending your advertising dollars in places that do contribute to stabilising environment in which you could do your business? The do contribute to society that is productive and democratic with streaky is like you can say that to the companies that are advertising on those platforms and could be advertising with you. And also you are owned by one of those companies like they themselves are spending tons of money those platforms. Right. But they also own two really big news brands, right? I mean, they own huffpost. And they also own Yahoo. News and young news. And huffpost combined reach hundreds of millions of people around the world. Right. So I think that and they do also spend money on huffpost both directly supporting our work. They also advertise with us. And I think that this is a very much a conversation that's happening with all kinds of companies, including with Verizon about no, should you really be thinking about spending, your your marketing money with companies that that really engendered the sorts of the sort of society that you want to be operating business in and charity begins at home. So start start with. You've gone through two rounds of layoffs since you took that job. What have you learned about that process? And what did you learn about yourself doing that there certain things that having done them? Once it doesn't make it any easier. The second time, it's tough. It's really tough. And in both cases, these were these were cuts that were not specifically targeted at huffpost. But part of the overall corporate environment the first round was the head of the merger with Yahoo. And the second round, you know, came after what was a really tough year for Brian media, which is what our subsidiary of of rising is called. And you know, that's the business reality. You know, you never wanna have to eat ever want anyone to lose their job. But these are businesses and business. Reality's do stereo in the face, and you do have to live within the means that you have. But it's painful, there's no question we've tried as much as possible to make that transition to their next job as easy as possible there. Lots of things you do as a as a company to do that. But we've also tried to be really strategic and thinking about what are the things that we can actually be truly distinctive at and have a meaningful impact on. And you know, when you go through this process. That's really what you think about is. Like, how do you focus the mind and take the resources that we have to do the best and most impactful journalism that we can. And I don't really believe in doing more with less. I think you do less with lasts. And you do the things you choose to do you're things and you do them better. So that's been my approach. There's a you're on Twitter sell bunch. You know that there's this like Xs dental. Sort of digital media crisis. Like we were in the moment. Did you feel that they have no idea what you're? No. Of course, there is an existential digital media crisis. And I think that the whole idea that, you know, eighty percent of new digital ad spend is going to the platforms just means that they're gonna be fewer players in the field. That's just a reality. And there's ultimately going to be a winnowing of the field. We've already seen that with Mike, and they will probably be others. You know, I think that the idea of digital media company. Going public is seems crazy to me. Now in a way that it didn't seem before, you know, I think we'll see a flurry of merger and acquisition activity happening. I think Jonah Peretti floated that idea to the New York Times band together all these news brands, and I think that. I think that the reality is that the big news organizations that we're getting their lunch eaten by digital news organizations. The legacy ones have caught up and then beat the smaller ones at their own game. Right. I mean, they learn how to do cO. They learned how to do social. They learned how to be fast on breaking news and things like that. And so I think that that has led to a real shakeout at the same time. I think that the need is as great as it's ever been. And they're consumers out there who who want the gentleman that were producing. I mean, a good month anywhere from one hundred fifty to one hundred seventy million people come to our our website, and that doesn't even count the people who read on apple news. The, you know, all these other places where we published so there's enormous demand. The question is can you can you make can you make money off of that audience? And can you make money off of that audience in a way that is ethical that's respectful of their privacy. I think those are the places where our company at least. I mean, my parent company are really have invested in thinking about what the future of that looks like that'll make sense to me. I imagine that there is still some part of you. Maybe a part of that is connected to the Ford correspondent or like the Washington monthly intern who like waiting tables while working for free that can. Can feel a little bit of what just general? Journalists are feeling right now, you know, chur and many of those people work for you rights. There's a some people left in the last couple of weeks, and there's a whole bunch of people left. How do you talk to your staff about it like how how do you? How do you tell her one? It's going to be okay. If it may be is going to be okay. Well, I don't tell them that. It's going to be okay. I tell them that we have a really great fighting chance to do something really powerful in amazing here. And it's going to take all of us working really really really hard together to make sure that that happens. And I think that when you're leading a news organization, a digital media organization at a time of just constant disruption. You gotta be honest with people you gotta level with them that there is a risk. And if they think things are bad in digital media, look at what's happening in local journalism, two hundred fifty thousand jobs disapp-. Peered over, you know, since the nineteen early nineteen ninety s I mean, they're more journalists jobs that have been lost in coal mining jobs. It's it's bleak out there. So I tell them we're here. Now, we have this opportunity. We work for a really big really great company that has invested in us, and we have shot. So we have to work really hard to be relevant to create journalism that no one else is doing to have a deep relationship with our audience, and we're just going to do our damndest not only to survive, but to like make a Mark to know that we've been here that we broke this story that were renewing something that feels really really meaningful. And I think you just gotta hold onto that. Okay. All right. Is it hard to keep that energy up? No, it isn't actually because I just I'm really persistent person. When I remember I remember once trying to get a permit to go to Darfur because you know, when you when you be in Sudan, the Sudanese government like really didn't want people to go to Dr four, and so they made it really onerous. He'd I you'd have to get a visa to go to Dan. And you'd go to Khartoum, and then in Khartoum, you'd have to go to this like basically like their version of the CIA or the KGB is who decided who got permits in who didn't and you'd have to go and just have tea with somebody over and over and over again and show up at their office. Sometimes he'd be stuck in Khartoum for weeks waiting for this this paper to come through, and you know, apropos of our earlier conversation. There's no alcohol in in Khartoum. It's hard, you know, not a ton of diversion. So. And. You know, I never once left Sudan without a permit to go to Darfur when I wanted to go to four I'm pretty persistent and energetic percents. I don't give up easily. Hillary. I thank you for doing this. This is great. Thanks max. Thanks, long poem a Mexican ski. My co-host are Aaron limit. And Evan Ratliff. Our editors Pifer, and our interns Tyler McCloskey, thanks to our sponsors, mail chimp. And pit writers. We'll see you next week.
"Hey It's a leash Assani and I'm Al D'Amato from Huffpost Canada it's a veto soy. She's a Nigerian Chinese Arts Educator and author on your old a four year old and a two year old she let me record her hear that are little pick that she was gonNA use on her daughter it looks kind of like a chopstick but it has a fuzzy loose debris watching Gabriella it was pretty clear that this wasn't the first time a see it as like a very big act of on lap it's like an intimacy that stuff like I never do to know friends family with her head on her grandmother's lap she'd here about life in China she all these like proverbs and teach ins and just how to be a person college so I clean my daughter's ears clean all of them when we talk the most I was lucky enough that my grandmother taught me these Salih to get lost if don't have the roots I wouldn't be mad at that well actually today we're talking about parented that's right yeah last time I checked so why are we spending a full episode on Parents Pass on how do we pass it on at I can't even think about answering any of those uh so Andrea where are you from I'm born and raised in Vancouver Gen parents walk me through some of the challenges and things that you think about as to pass on the values and the lessons that are important to you have my parents passed onto me that I wanNA pass onto my kids at the same time how do feel are important or have as much weight in my kids lives being your best laid plans or never what actually happened so one thing I wanted struggle They dug in their heels and they forced me go to Chinese school as a kid you like this is boring I hated it's GonNa be great we're GonNa do this together and of course life intervenes we end up so they don't want to and so do I force them to go through something that you to go to lunch class because now I have these skills I can talk to my family and I can in my doc a big value for me is respecting your elders and around who are elders and I don't and like I live with my grandma so if I didn't have her around culture and living here so I completely understand that and it's something mm-hmm I understand a lot more of their sacrifices it myself you get it and I'm grateful that they're still alive that I can try to me it all makes sense now what kind of things would you like to tell it's really amazing to pass or from your culture or they share you know a celebration joyful and brought you Value from your culture I agree I think I have a lot of things to think about so I'm gonNA blame you for that one don't you can't blame me. Alicia that chat you had was so eye opening it would be that they had no interest in learning to got look which is the language of my if they weren't interested in learning I would feel like they wouldn't understand anything that my family talks about it can also barely speak for job I get tongue tied for sure I do understand a lot of it they should if I marry someone who also is second Jan even if they're Indian but I know all the spices off by heart yet and the order to put them in but they will love Indian Food Oh yeah she only remembers the title one line from the song and nothing else so going to school and music as well he would just kind of let himself go and play songs from the old country play really the one lullaby that I learned about which is Quick Kuka the one line which is Great Kuka whop hits Cuapi it's been yesterday did he meaning goes or just means La la la I'm like that's a complicated way of saying didn't really know what the name of the song was or what the lyrics were for many many many years I not forgot about it but I definitely I put it aside and I her latest was nominated for world album of the year at the Junos in fact the song you're listening taking inspiration from her father's nightly piano sessions Braga Channel those childhood minted but I mean I'm okay with that but yeah what part of and little did he know that all of this kind of emoting or feeling doing it that kind of that there was something something within him of his pasta was passed on to the song went or even what it was called and she knows Polish but isn't won't pull the Jetta Nigh so do you know what do you do you know my name's Nicholas Missouri Am a new dad and I'm starting to learn some lullabies in Polish a little one nora so she can learn language a little bit better than me it took a bit the about a boy who falls in love with a girl as he does there's a Kuku in a treaty that's kind of who lets his emotions guide what he's looking for right so then that goes into together though full version of Kukushka so he said next rendition to Breda ah very touching because it's a memory that fed into to the point I know the love is there but it's like as if it's been just so fall so it's really touched me it's gorgeous cou to know her father better through music is something I really admire about Breda do you remember the first they still live at home and as an adult tiles living with you know I hear you yeah it's kind of like a weird roommate situation because it's like we all live in driving down the highway and actually she doesn't even drive on the highway but we'll be driving friends you know just spending the day doing whatever getting her nails done something like that just been a uses they then pronouns their Guyanese and Indian in being queer person and being non binary there's a lot of things I could I being non binary wasn't something just penis family understood let alone accepted and I see a lot of that with a product of colonization product of and in a particular way immigrants have a lot of secrets and I noticed that like I you know I felt like me all there may be they have these backwards views in some ways or they are they worth being in your family had something that I've really struggled with and for me action and especially if you're not connected to a broader community and they have this love been challenging well just been a struggled with the idea of family she's three months old her interest include smiling breastfeeding so scared I was like what if I don't feel those deep feelings of love everyone talks about how beautiful she is and how much I love her because a lot of my life has been those walls and not trusting myself sorry you know just be apparent it in in getting older you know and also in becoming apparent myself I'm not just a child anymore and my parents and grandparents do their best for their for their kids seeing my mother with Mary's things that I just adored about my mother when I was younger to spin it is named after ashes her getting that nickname was just really really wonderful you know says guy in east side which they've been estranged from since childhood I many aunts just grabbed her in a nice way and like they were just passing around you're part of our family I I didn't realize that you know the terms of being queer being non binary all the kind of organizing work that I've done but a singular kinda lonely way so seeing and for years I've just distanced myself having this experience as the embodiment chubby better with her I want to be able to beat some my grandma had maybe not been invested in the same way but because I have a child now access to them Werner at Al D'Amato are executive producers are Lisa young and Andre allow just being unmarry Justice Breda and Nicholas Missouri as well as Madeleine this podcast is basically teams baby and as with all doting parents we sewed it sounds a bit like this my parents apparently met each other and new upon like. Oh No God will say this is your husband until.
"From huffpost Canada you're listening to born and raised number me from our first season when we cooked up some tasty food stories from children of immigrants when it came up that born and raised was getting a season two you're like I have a treasure trove of stories
Interview with Camille Davis-Part 2-The tables are turned-Camille asks the big questions about divorce
"Regardless of how may I find ourselves in the world of divorce? The one thing we have complete control over is how we behave from here on out? We have two choices one is to remain stuck with the stories the anger and pain and the other is to take a breath adjust our sale to the wind and work harder than ever before to create a new story home for our children for ourselves. And for the world around us. It's your choice your work, but all be in your corner. Welcome to in your corner divorce podcast. My name is Carly Israel, and I am your host. Hi guys, and welcome. I am so glad to be here today. We had a couple of technical difficulty over we made it. Let's take a collective deep breath. I know we're going to be okay. If this is our biggest problem today, we're good to go. Absolutely. I'm so excited to talk to you. I feel like this is our day like we say now that I was like I'm with Camille today. Peace out everybody also. So for those of you who don't know me how everybody my name is Camille Davis accidental divorce coach now feminine Ascension codes and I am here with the fabulous Carly from in your corner relationship coaching is here with us today, and we're going to just talk about all things divorce. Yeah, the things that she wants to share with us, and I can't tell you Carly we met back in 2016. Yes, I started a page called the worst that defeated and we connected there and through the years. We have been seeing in contact and connecting on and off and you just doing such amazing things right now. So go ahead and show her you empowered women Empower women who I connected with you a couple of months ago saying I want to talk with you and what I love about you is you were like come on and the water is warm like we are about to help each other and for your audience Camille is so I start people when they're a mess and I help them do their dark hallways and then you take them and you help them Ascend. So we're a good team and know we have the Synergy going on Thursday and you know, and it's all about community and collaboration right am so much an advocate for women helping women rise, and that's exactly what county and I are doing here. The other today yes to you all just to share Like Her Awesomeness and Macaulay what I really would like for you to explain you have this Northstar divorce is life from that you use. Yes plane that for us. Okay, I would love to thank you so much. So the Northstar is what sailors use in the dark when they're lost and they can't find their way of life. Not a sailor. I'm terrified of large bodies of water. I would not want to be in the dark on a boat. But if I was and I could use the Northstar I would use that the reason why it's my concept is when I knew I was going through my divorce the universe sent me this guy named Scott Simon and we were just Facebook friends and you know, he could be Facebook friends with people be like never would talk to them in line at Starbucks cuz like I don't even know them off. So the universe is like reach out to him. He has a story and he was known around town as someone who was happily divorced and I wanted to know how to do that because in our society everyone's like, oh wow. Miserable. I'm so when you tell someone you're getting a divorce their first answer is I'm so sorry like like a cat dying and what I say that people is congratulations because no good life ends in divorce, right? So Scott sat down and I sat down on the couch. We talked and told each other our stories and he said that my children were going to be my North Star and that took the sailors in the dark that don't know how to find a home. I was going to look to my children as the guiding principle of what's going to be best for my children. And so when I work with clients and my podcast everything is about the Northstar which is making decisions based on what is best for the children and what is best for the children is a mother or father who is not filled with anger and emotional blockage and is happy living exciting lives like you do with your clients and is working through but the only way out is through you can't just become that you have to do the work right? Yep. So yeah, so I mean I totally get that in that makes so much sense my like sometimes we get so wrapped up and the divorce like the actual being legal but separate all of it. Yeah that we missed those important pieces. So let's back up for a moment. Okay, it's all of your goodness that you guys and let's talk about you specifically and and your divorce and how it came about and and what happened the tables are turned. I just had a chance to enjoy them to you and my podcast is in your corner divorce podcast. And the reason why I called in your corner is because I can't do your work but like a boxing coach. I'm going to be in your corner, but I just got the birth of you Camille So you'll get to hear that. So now it's your turn so. On paper. Everything was awesome. Beautiful. Couple beautiful Home Three Boys. No one knew anything is going out because you don't like to tell people your stuff and Thursday. We he checked all the boxes on paper and we had this beautiful life and it was really busy. I had three little boys very very close to the age. I was doing everything like every wake up repeating everything and he was working like a million hours and I wanted to connect like I wanted a partnership a sole of intense. I wanted to start against the wall. I wanted dead giveaway like in a sexual way. I wanted I wanted to my best friend and soul mate and he was like, but that's not who I am. And so we would keep having this conversation and I kept being hungry for emotional connection for a physical connection for an intimate connection. And one of our children has pretty intense medical condition and I became the sole caregiver and home. That was not the reason why we ended up having a divorce, but what I know is that when pressure is put on a house of beams clothing if the beams are not strong as life has changed, right you're going to have death in sickness and jobs and money and all of it. So that's not the reason the reason was our foundation was not strong and the two of us, we're not both willing to work on it. We talked about that earlier that like a marriage is the only living thing that needs to people to keep it alive. You can raise a child alone. You can keep tend to Garden alone. You can have a house alone. You can take care of the animal though. You cannot have a marriage alone. That's so important for our viewers to understand right? How long does it takes to this? This is the one thing like you said that you cannot do on your own and so tell us some of the markers some of the I don't know maybe in dog Here's the let you know that you were coming to Shorter so six years on and off of marriage counselling not to knock marriage counselling but it was very unpleasant gave me three different marriage counselors. I'm a very good communicator and I would be like, this is what I need. This is what I would like can we do this and he was just like a very passive and kind but didn't want to do anything. It was basically like he felt like he was fine in the problem was mind and what I'd like everyone to understand them. All Partners is if one person in a relationship is not okay than the relationship is not okay. You can't just say that's your issue. And so I thought my issues why did a ton of work on myself? Thank God and I love I got to a place where I loved myself and I was strong and I did I'm Twenty-One years sober now dead. Done now and I just there was literally nothing else I could do right and acceptance acceptance acceptance of you know, this is a lot as is and I got to a place where I was just thought I wrote about it a lot. There were no physical markings of the abuse. There was no black eyes. There was no infidelity, but what there was was neglected and I felt alone. I felt lonely. I want I was starving for a connection and I wanted to be with my husband cuz who wants a divorce rate? Yeah, right totally and he was just he just didn't get it. Like I remember the first time I told him I don't use the word lightly. I don't throw it around I said, I'm considering after all this work and after twenty minutes, he's like, can I go watch the Cavs game and I was like, Okay, like if you said that to me, we'd be up all night long was like graphs and spreadsheets and bibles and yeah, but you you know when someone has like checked out. Yeah, and he was checked out and it was really sad. We had build our dream home. We lived on my parents land and we had this beautiful family and it was I made the decision to stay. I made the decision to stay. I went back and forth and so much misery and I beg people tell me what to do like Google that should I say from my kids? Yeah and people have a lot of opinions as you know, and they're like, yes, you should you should never leave this is horrible and I made the decision to stay and I took a selfie of myself my steps off to see like what I feel better now, like I made the decision it was the most sad pathetic face I've ever seen it was my own and I was like my kids Reserve a happy mom and you know what finally broke everything what's up? Sweethearts eighty eight cents, we charge you just never know what it's going to be right like when it's such a mess. You just never know. What's going to be the final drop of water to push it over. I was in like a drugstore. I was getting something sweetheart shrugs sale. My previous husband loves sweethearts and I would pick up things ramp and you loved and he never did that for me. And when I picked up those sweethearts, I thought you were going to be in a marriage for the rest of your life with someone who would never consider picking up your favorite thing. Wow, unless it was like my birthday and I was like, I don't want I want more planes and I just once I made that decision. Wow, I you know, I was terrified but I didn't regret that. I didn't do enough work cuz I did so much work. Yeah, so tell us about that, but well, yeah, you know a lot of people think birth Made the decision right and and I'm going to feel better. It's going to be better. But tell us about having to do the work. So the work post post the decision. Okay. So the word took the decision a couple of things I would love to share with everyone. Please do what I wish I would have had when I was going through the legal process of divorce is someone like you or me to say you slow your roll do not make fast decisions about what you put in that shared document. Do not that document. If you don't have never gone through it is like a concrete and it is almost impossible to change it and I was in so much emotional pain and we were living in the same house for seven months old. We were trying to foul our dream house like cleaning up for like showings that I just wanted to be over and I wish someone would have said don't rush you need to make slow decision off. And I wish I would have known about the really important things that need to be in a shared parenting plan. If you have children and you don't want to mess them up because you're a divorce. So one thing would be slowed down. The other thing is you need to have people like a team of people to go to and I strongly suggest they're not your family members wage because they also are going through the divorce, right? Yeah, like my mom was really affected by divorce. She had this dream understood understandably. So and I needed someone that wasn't emotionally affected by I mean does it make sense to the situation? Yeah totally makes sense and it's important to have those people because you know, they're invested in it. They're invested in view on a resident in Union. So yeah, I totally get that. Yeah, so one of the things so I'm a writer and one of the things I started doing was I you know, I was a Facebook poster that just posted Smiley pictures off. And when I went through the divorce, I started posting the truth and one of my jobs I think in the universe is to give other people permission to be human and I consider myself to be a beautiful mess and I just showed them the mess. Yes. I was like, here's the show that is my life. Right like can't be honored it like because when I show you my mask then you feel safe showing me your mess with you. But you also realize that you're not alone right at the women who come to me and probably you as well come saying, oh my gosh. I'm so glad to have found you and it helps me to realize that I'm not alone. I'm not the only one who is experiencing this or going through this journey. So you want someone a guide you like you were going to say no. No, that's not something. You should just give up on that's a big deal or no. Let that one go. What were you about to say? No, I was just going to say the way into town. Now tell us a little bit about how you ended up coaching because like going through right? Yes divorce. This is your story. You are working yourself. You're coming out of it. You have started a page. Yeah for writing an article. Yeah. So what was the what was the transition great question. I'm one of those people that did not know what they wanted to do when they grew up for decades and decades if I could have asked God one question. It would have been please tell me what to do because I you know, you mentioned earlier today when we were talking that you took a job you love and I wanted that so badly I went to school I have my Master's in education. I was a teacher for a little bit. I was I've been a mom, you know, I my parents business I work for them, but it was never what I wanted and I've always done like help and Outreach. I'm sober in AA Twenty-One years. So I sponsored women for twenty plus years. I guide them to the book. I've always been a coach. Mentor and I created a podcast a couple of years ago that sobriety related a lot of people that are listening to it. Like did it in my car while my kids were karate and I called North Star big book. It's all about the Northstar. Right? So it's all about finding your focus and I started writing articles for HuffPost before it became the whole house. It is now and off and connected with what I was saying. I made a one of the challenges I do because you do awesome things to push people who your clients to become awesome, which I do at the end is I need a dedication that one day every single day for one year. I was going to post of thank you on social media to think somebody in my life who made it breaks and it didn't always have to be something better. It could be like like someone that made fun of my kid and like how they made me remember like that's so not cool. And so people are really drawn to it and Thursday. Not doing another year and it was about lessons. I learned and a woman reached out to me who had a small awesome publication and she's like you needed to turn this into a book long story short my Memoirs coming out September 7th. Oh, thank you seconds and inches, it's been my dream for decades. It's a story told in three parts from with the thank you letters intertwined and the first part is my history like where I come from because I believe that where we come from matters, not all the things that we carry from our from our family and our ancestors helped shape us into Iraq where we are and then I kind of highlighted my mass of mass and my divorce is a big part of it and then my Renaissance which is what you talk about is Ascension. I remember being apart a friend of mine and I was crying in San Francisco on my last vacation with my then-husband where we have planned before the divorce ended up happening and I was miserable like it was dead. Like pulling teeth every moment and we had already like were back and forth and I was calling my friend crying and I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me and he said you're in a Renaissance and I was like what like this doesn't feel like a in order for something to be beautiful and built you have to tear down right down and with big right? You can't just okay. This is a mess and let's get better. You have to like I always think about 911 Twin Towers. They had do so much work to clean up that mess before they could ever start over and build right? And so I that's what I do my clients. I make them clean up their mess awesome. So yeah, so tell us then Thursday, I mean, it's such a good point such a great analogy of how you have to tear down in order to build that strong Foundation that you need to you know, how your Renaissance like to move forward in a month. And so what are some of the steps that you go through with your clients to help them get on that path to get you know focused and clear on the path before them? Sure. So how long before I entered that I'm going to finish what I was thinking that you asked me was the way I became a divorce coach was because like you everyone kept saying well, how do you do this? Cuz they saw me doing it differently and it's kind of having and it finally clicked and I was like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing and so it kind of all got together. So what do I do to help my clients get through that is I do with the main thing. I do is a 5 session program which is intent and I there's not the there's people I will not work with and they are people who like to complain a lot and don't want to do work with people who like to stay stuck in their stories and want to blame everybody because I can't help you. If you're not ready to get to get better. Right right. It's your work not my work I are you doing I'm still doing my work, but it's dead. So the first couple of sessions we really hammer out the anger and the fear. Okay, we pull it out. I picture a hallway that has been jam-packed if you're married and you live in a house with somebody you've got memories and boxes and bags and memorabilia and wedding albums. And what do I do with this DVD and I so we pull it out and look at it together like you like you would with a friend and we say what do you need? And what don't you need any more? What serving you is any of this? Is this still serving you right and that we get rid of the things that are no longer serving us. We find a place of forgiveness which looks different for every single person and then we start dreaming and in in in between each session is tons of work cuz I believe like you and writing. Yeah, and I you know, one of the most important letters I ever wrote was to myself HuffPost asked me to do it and I make my clients do it. I had to write to myself on the eve of my wedding dead. With the person I was no longer with high is one thing I want to address is I don't like when people use the word failure about their marriage know if there's children involved because even if there's not if there's children involved for sure because your Tucson and my three sons are not failures absolutely not and everything that came from that marriage that I didn't like worst thing. I learned and things that came that marriage that are the most important are my kids the kids. Yeah. So that letter is really important for all of us to write yet to a place where you have to honor because when I wrote a letter I said at the end of it walked down that aisle girl because if I if I would have known then what I know today at 26, I would have freaked out and ran away and I thought I missed so much. Yeah. Yeah, you know, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I totally get that and I think that's a great exercise for people to do. I mean, there's a lot table Ways to go back in to pull in and encourage and show yourself up and especially speaking to your former self is like a really loved that idea of writing that letter I do too and you know, you can also do when you're in the middle of the mess of divorce and you like can't breathe and like I can't see you can write a letter to your current self from your future self. Ten years down the road what she's going to experience and how the person here today. That's a mess needs to keep going because it's going to get better. It's going to get better. Absolutely. I believe that and I know you believe that and I mean and it's true it will get better. Sometimes we can't see, you know the path ahead of us because we're so stuck in the message at the moment. That's that's just one great way to kind of see how to you know, encourage yourself and get yourself there. I always say that God is like a semi dead. And when you're driving like a one-lane road and there's a semi in front of you can't see why it's so slow. What what's the holdup? Right and we're mad and we're like freaking out was of course. We left late Thursday, when we finally get to whatever slow we see a horrible accident in a body bag and we're like I couldn't see what you could see right? And so for me it's about being uncomfortable and walking through the only way out is through if you work with me, that's all you'll hear over and over. The only way out is through there are no shortcuts a new relationship right is not a shortcut. There is no shortcut. Which second yeah so many women so many people it doesn't matter man woman, whatever have you they want to quickly get into something new right off. They just laugh this this past relationship or marriage. There's a lot of healing and things that need to happen in between right. So like I do in all of my experiences, I like to speak for my mistakes and I will never consider my current husband a mistake cuz I love him massively. He's like my best friend on Earth, but we made the decision to get married and to be together very quickly after we both left. So we both both of our marriages were crumbling we became best friends. We'd never even hugged we lived in different states. We never even hugged until after he made the decision to be together but looking at it now, I think that we would have both benefited from having that alone time. I think the only reason why I'm able to be okay is cuz I did so much work before that that I love myself. So when we get in a fight which we did was who doesn't cause I'm okay like I'm also okay no matter what like, I'm okay no matter how this thing goes because I've already done that and I know what matters right? Yep. You're so right. It's so hard to know like what's right when you are just in the middle of the mess it is it's so difficult because there's there's all these things going on. Right and we're being pulled in fifty million different directions. We can't tell on him from hotel and we're just trying to kind of like like you said you just trying to get through it and you want it to end and so you know that you're like, okay well whatever it takes to get through it and write we rushed the process and I think that's the one of the mistakes that we make some times and trying to get past one relationship is rushing the process of going into something new. Yes have a lot of work to do on ourselves. And so since you've gone through that is their processing take your clients through yes going through that tell us a little bit about that. Well, that's so interesting. So I actually wanted to talk about it and I was like, oh you talk about if I'm going to talk about it. So this is so empowering birth. Especially for everybody but especially for women in because predominantly women are in a situation because of our society where were not making as much money as our last spouse or whatever or the divorce was just so freaking expensive and decimated our finances, right? So what I did and what I'm currently doing and I had someone on my podcast mediator long talking about this is I am making a contract a postnuptial with my current husband. It would be a Prius considered a prenup but it just post up cuz we're already married where we laid out what the finances need to look like and how they need to be separate because we didn't do that initially but doing that today because life happens and the two humans that birth to humans and so we hit a bump in the road and I reached out to the mediator and my husband and I are the same page as we both wanted to work. Yeah, I would highly recommend job. Our listeners especially women if you're going to get in another relationship and it's going to be one that's going to be long term that you set up a document to save yourself if it doesn't work out because it's not sexy right right not romantic when you're picking out exciting you addresses and locations and all of it. No one wants to talk about that long. But what we learned is this is a business like a relationship is a partnership and a business. Could you imagine a meeting you went into business and we didn't talk about how we're going to deal with things off then lay down the foundation had no contract no parameters. So we're going to do that. So that's something uncomfortable that I like people to understand especially if you've been through divorce is seek out help. It's not even expensive to get a mediator and if your partner really cares they will do it with you. It's a smart decision for adults to make especially if there's other children involved in Blended families dead. So that's something you know, and the other thing is that would say about people that want to a relationship that mean you're going to talk about later. I always make the person I'm working with money get to a place where they have to like themselves love themselves. Okay. It's not humanly possible to find a life partner that is going to be successful. If you don't love yourself. Yes. Absolutely. I mean, you know and we talked about this a little bit earlier. Like, how can you teach someone how to love you properly? If you don't love yourself not possible possible. And so that's one of the things that we have to you know, we have to work on we have to work on loving ourselves loving the woman that we are and that we're becoming right finding out what you watch like one of the exercises I do with clients who are seeking help finding a partner is what they don't realize I'm going to tell everybody is I'm helping them find a partner, but I'm really wage. And then find themselves until they get to a place where the partner they love is themselves. They're not going to attract the right person. So we look at the things that they loved in other relationships, but they they hated another relationship. Then I tell them to circle the things that are non-negotiable like you talked about like I am unwilling to ever be with a person again, who does this or who doesn't do this talking about sex too? Cuz we never talked about sex. Right? Right, right. We never got to talk about it. Yeah, and then we decide if this is your ideal and this is a partner you want you have to put it out to the universe means when you're dating and you see someone who doesn't have one of these character traits that are non-negotiables you have to walk away cuz otherwise you're telling the universe. I'm afraid I don't trust you and I'm going to I'm going to just stay here and hope you'll send someone else my way. Hm. Yeah, this this goes into the the not trusting of self dead. Because a lot of times we get in this situation, we're we're kind of like well before I made the decision to do this and now we're not trusting ourselves or our decisions and we're not trust abilities to do what is going to be right a right fit for us in our life and our work. Yeah are not trusting are worth we are not trusting. I remember talking about friends and she's post-divorce and she's like, well, I'm okay if he lives with his mom like we wait he's fifty he lives in his mother's basement wage. You're okay with that and she's like not really but he's a really great guy and I'm hoping he'll get to like stop. You have to love people as they are. Yeah, and if you're hoping he's going to become something you're in delusion. Yeah, right, right because we're hoping that someone's going to change but we already see what's before us. And we think that some way somehow myself synergistic osmosis. They've become and do what we want or desire, right? Yeah my joke. I'm I'm you know, I'm kind of out there I joke and I say that God is not a pimp and that God's not going to hook you up and send someone to your door, but you have to do the footwork and you have to act like somebody who believes that they're worthy who believes that there's a human out there for them that their deepest Hearts desires to connect with and will settle for nothing less cuz you'll you'll get whatever you settle for. Right? Right or we had shrimp. Also what we're sending out right? Yes, a lot of women, you know, we hear the phrase all the time and wage. talked about this a little bit earlier you know why do I keep ending up in the same types of relationships so why do I keep attracting the stay the same type of person remember what we said why we said it off because I mean it's just you know we we put out what we receive what we put out with right and if you have it and you don't like it you're choosing to stay home it's a choice it's a decision that you're right right so you can't walk around going I only get guys or girls that are so you know mean or don't take care of themselves and you're like well then leave like God why are you staying situations absolutely I mean I I think that for a lot of people just the idea of being alone is so scary that we're willing to sacrifice will take a dime today instead of a dollar tomorrow we're afraid dead When it all comes down to Camille is we're not trusting that the Universe has our back and that something I believe deeply is that are like for me my God, which is not religious. It's just the same thing wants for me what my deepest Hearts Desire is and besides my children. My deepest Hearts Desire is to have a soul life partner. That is my best friend. Yeah, they're not going to be perfect cuz there's no such thing, but they're my perfect and if I see someone and I'm with someone that doesn't meet those really important things I said and I choose to stay cuz I'm afraid what I'm what I'm really saying is I don't trust God. Yeah. Yeah, I'm staying with someone that I know is it right for me? Yeah. I'm hoping that he'll change when he won't you see the only man you can change a diaper right? So So change people right? You can't change anyone they have that's their work and you know, and it's so important that you know, you mentioned there a little bit about the sacrifice right? We're sacrificing ourselves and I don't know about you but like I'm not willing to do it anymore now wasn't willing to go there and make that sacrifice to sacrifice self. We did already we did already own that already ready. I don't want to do anymore. And what message does it send to my children off so my children when I'm not with them, here's a deal it's always sad for you when they leave. I'm the kind of person that would like to like snuggle their faces. Like I have three boys, they don't want to snuggle my face. But like I want I want them all the time when I'm not with them. I've created a life. I'm excited about where I get to do things and then they get to see a mom who's got medals it was doing this and was doing that and it was collecting this four people them. I'm over here because they need an example of someone who's not only living for one thing. Right? Absolutely. Right and because children already see what's happening they offer Cs and we are their example. Yes want to give them the best possible example of what's possible for them. Right? And I speak to the two things that are the most important to me about children. These are my deal breakers for clients. I will not work with someone who's not willing to commit to these two things. The first one is what everyone knows you are not allowed to talk negatively about their birth parent. It is considered child abuse. If you speak about their parent in front of them in a negative way, you're just like your dad in like a not way or I can't believe you did that would be so selfish in front of your kid that is their parent and that is so harmful to them. And in addition to that if you hear someone talking about their parent in earshot, that's like a dog Family or friends to shut that down because that kid doesn't want this they didn't choose this and they don't want you to say something a one I told the story someone else recently my kid my youngest kid called me crying hysterically on FaceTime one day and he said he was with his extended family in one of his aunts was looking through pictures and saw pictures with the family and said I need to delete this one and my son heard her and how do you think an eight year old boys feels like I don't want you to delete my mom and he was a stereotypical and like we have to protect our kids. So that's number one kind of no-brainer. Yeah. Number two is the hardest one for people. It's like asking them to give up carbs. I tell my clients and this is pre covid-19 ago back there one day you must sit near each other at all events. If you're at a concert or a soccer game or football game or a play or graduation. You are the same vicinity. You don't do sit on his lap, but sit and you can eat me one row ahead of them or side because why should your children have to look into different directions to find their parents? That is that's great advice. It gives me chills my talk about it because if and that's like also like a temperature check I tell them away and if they're like no way I'm like, I don't think it's going to work because if you're so selfish that you won't even sit in it, they're not going to hurt you you're in the middle of a public event. Right, right. that is great advice and you're so right why would you why make our children searched out two different locations you know they're over here they're over there you know this one's down here I just I absolutely love that and they only have two seconds to look up when they paid a good ball they only need to look did you guys see that now did you see that over there and where's my mom she over there cuz God cuz they can't even be next to each other and I have to say I know you do this I've done a lot of anonymous question years of kids and an adult kids and their life of their number one thing's is my parents would be the same room and that is what we talked about this earlier the only reason why parents cannot show up is because they're selfish selfish right off Call it what it is, right? So uncomfortable to hear isn't it totally is but you know, this is this is the reality of it and it and you know that if someone were not showing up for the child. That's the only thing that it could be. Yeah, so because you have to be willing to make yourself uncomfortable. Yes, because it's not about you. This is about sucking it up and smiling you already made the decision and not stay together. You don't have to ever sleep with them again. You're not going to do any of that stuff again, but you can sit in a gymnasium for 45 minutes together. So you're you know, what is even crazier down the road as you guys can go for ice cream together like your kids. There's very little things our kids need when their parents are divorced, but they're asking for they want the birthdays to be together. They want to be at Halloween. They don't have to go separate like show up. Yes, Sofrito and grow up, right? Yeah. I love that. I mean you're speaking with Language, you know you and I that's why we like each other because I don't have time for your crap. You know, like be nice looks like we learn in kindergarten like you don't have to tell them how you feel about a mile. I so appreciate you saying that to our viewers because this is one of the things that affects kids so greatly and you know, I'm thinking I'm being selfish you don't we talked about it earlier about how kids are keen and they're already in up in in tune to what's happening. Anyway, right? Like they've already gone through this process with us because they are going through the process. Yes, they did want to ask for it. They don't want it. So it puts them in a really precarious situation. But yeah, we really really have to be Keen in a way on that. So moving from that and transitioning just tell us how we can move forward and create dead. You know some of the excitement and betterness things for us as we move on post-divorce include that awesome. I will and then I have to jump on another call at 4 a.m. Is life is insane. So here we go. If you've already gone through the process of divorce and you're like hearing your like now what write that letter get free find out what's in your closet and took a text blocking you find someone you can trust call one of us will help you you'll help them. We want to get three right? It's about getting free and letting go of what's no longer serving us like all that type of stuff like get rid of it. If it's not really enjoy get rid of it except for your kids. You gotta keep them and find something that is exciting and challenging to you. So you have something to work towards goals like a Halloween is a great opportunity right now to do a lot of cool things and make create a life you're excited about Absolutely, right. It's all about finding the new and creating the new version of you and you want person to be honorat or dying on ventilators people. Are they using everything life is short? We are not promised anything but this moment do you want to spend your moments being unhappy and angry or do you want to live? Absolutely. Absolutely, Thank you. I love you and sharing with us, beers really quickly before you go where they can find you. Okay. My Facebook page is in your corner relationship. My email is dead in your corner coach at Gmail and I have a podcast called in your corner divorce podcast. I am so grateful for your time and your community. Please reach out to me. I would love to connect them to me and you are going to do this again. And again cuz we have a lot to talk about. I love you. I love you for any listeners would like to go deeper into my story. Check out my Memoir second job. Images available in paperback audio or digital on Amazon Barnes & Noble iTunes and indiebound. Remember we get to write this next chapter for our kids for our bowels and for the world around us. Have a great day.
11 Trivia Questions on Modern Star Wars
"Get ready for an epic battle in your head with the world of Star Wars on today's episode about Modern Star. Wars Trivia Trivia would buds and move. It'd be welcome to another episode of the Trivia with Buds. podcast happy holidays. I'm your host Ryan Buds. Thanks for checking out the show wherever you're listening listening from which could be in my home state of California are all the way across the world in Australia where it's all ready Christmas. My friend Luke McKay who listens to the show. I'll send a nice merry Christmas to everybody and I'm like Oh wait wait a second. I looked it up is already Christmas in Australia. So thank you luke and thanks to all my Australian listeners and anybody the else around the world who celebrating Christmas on time or early today we have an episode for you on Modern Star Wars. which is the last five films are so? There's no huge spoilers believe today's episode. I have not seen the new movie. the rights of skywalker. So I might go see it. Actually I was going to see it today by myself. But there's already I was is GonNa see yesterday by myself holy cow. The days are flying by. I will probably not see this movie until well after Christmas but a lot of mixed reviews out there some people love it. Some people are just okay with it. Some some people don't like it at all so we'll see what I think and again. That will not matter to anybody whether you liked it but I will share my review once I see it and and I'm sure it's fun it's gotTa be at least fun price some fun stuff in there so I'm looking forward to that before we get into today's episode. I have a blog reading from HUFFPOST DOT COM says thirty tweets about sending letters to Santer. Thought I'd share some of those with you guys right now. This one's from Simon Holland on twitter. He says my daughter just asked me how to spell Bourbon. So she's either asking Sandy Hook up old man or writing a letter to child services. That's a fun one. This one says five year old. Can I send a letter to Santa. Maybe it's not Christmas five year old. He won't have many letters right now. That's a great one. That's from James Break. Well exploding Unicorn on twitter Let's see this this one says The postscript on my kids letter to Santa Making the case for leniency for the puppy. ps can you please get my puppy. Some cut my puppy some slack. She's trying she would like some treats and some toys thanks. That's from damned sinker or dancing ker on twitter couple more more. These Abe Yose B cheese boy twenty two on twitter says. My son sent a letter to Santa. I hope it gets there. It doesn't have any postage on it. And he put it in the bathroom heater vent and that's pretty Great Jeff. Wild twitter says helping my five year old writer Santa letter she said Tell Santa. I've been really nice because one time time bided my brother. I said that doesn't sound very nice. And she said I told him. Sorry right down to and the last one. Jennifer Eliza says my six year old wrote a letter to Santa using using my dog's paw to hold the CRAN and I swear it's more legible than the tax bill. So there you go some Christmas cheer just a couple of days before Christmas. Actually it's the day before or Christmas if you're listening to this putting out to episodes today because I did not put one out yesterday got a little too busy with all the holiday cheer but regardless I hope you are digging the show in in the month December and going into our last shows of the decade two thousand nineteen is almost over. We'll have a couple year in review type episodes coming up for New Year's and a bunch of fun on stuff along the way school announcements coming up for twenty twenty two fan of the show. I hope you keep listening. And if you want to donate a few bucks Patriot dot com slash trivia with buds. That is always greatly appreciated. Thanks to all my patriots out there. Okay we're going to jump into today's episode on Modern Star Wars Eleven questions on the last few movies right now here here we go modern star wars the last couple of movies. Someone said it when I put this on my website for a live round last week. Do you mean how star wars translates into modern technology. And I was like no I. Don't that's a little too nerdy for me and I think the masses but I liked your enthusiasm. Here's number number. One what is Kylo Rennes Real. First name in the more recent movies number one. What is Kylo Ren real first name? Not The actor but the character Kylo Ren Israel first name number one number two what famous admiral was killed off in the last Jedi. She had I number two what famous admiral was killed off in the last Jedi. Question Number Three in what recent star wars film would you find. A character named Jin. Urso J. Y. N. E. R. S. O.. In what Modern Star Wars Film. Would you find Jin Urso or so number. Three number four. How old is Chewbacca in the Solo? Spin off ninety nine nine hundred thirty nine one hundred ninety nine or two hundred and forty nine. How old is Chewbacca in the Solo? Spin off ninety nine one thousand nine hundred ninety nine or two forty nine. The number five whose infamous laugh is heard in the trailer for rise of skywalker number. Five whose infamous laugh is heard in the trailer for rise of skywalker. Question number six Gwendolyn Dylan. Christie plays what character in the force awakens number six Gwendolyn Christie. Plays What character in the force awakens. Question seven what female mechanic with the resistance was introduced in two thousand seventeen number seven. What female mechanic with resistance was introduced introduced in two thousand seventeen questionable aide who directed rogue one number great who directed rogue one question number nine in Solo? Han gets expelled from the Imperial Blank Academy fill in the blank number nine and so lo Han gets expelled from the Imperial Blank Academy number nine. The Dan question number ten. What British comedic actor played junkyard dealer on car pollute or plot on CAR PLOT IN A FORCE AWAKENS CAMEO number ten? What British comedic actor played Junkyard Dealer Car Plot in a force awakens? Cameo your bonus question for Modern Star Wars here for two points. Which of the newest trilogy has the longest run time at two hours? Thirty two minutes number eleven for two points which the newest trilogy has the longest run time at two hours thirty two minutes. Those are all your questions for the more recent recent star wars movies. We'll be right back in just a second with those answers. Here are the answers for the quiz today. I hope you had fun. Playing along on with some star. Wars Trivia hours fever is everywhere with that new movie out and the man Lorient with just one episode to go. So I'm going to catch up on everything number one. What is Kylo Kylo Ren real first name? His name is Ben Ben Solo Number One ben number two what famous admiral was killed off in the last Jedi. That'd be Admiral Akbar. It's it's a trap number three. And what recent Star Wars Film would you find Jin Urso that would be rogue one that is the main heroine in rogue one number four. How old is Chewbacca? And the Solo spin off one hundred ninety nine one ninety nine question five infamous laugh is heard in the trailer for rise of skywalker. Emperor palpitation number five. Emperor palpitation number six Gwendolyn Christie. Plays What character and the Force Awakens. That would be kept in FAZ. Mom An underused character. If I've ever seen one captain Fatima I liked the look of that character like the voice. I like some of the fights. She's in but they don't really do anything with her number. Six number seven. What female mechanic was? The resistance was with the resistance and introduced in two thousand seventeen. That would be rose. People do not like rose. I had no problem with the character number. Eight who directed rogue Juan Gareth Edwards number eight Gareth Edwards number nine. And so lo Han gets expelled from the Imperial Flight Academy that makes sense the Flight Academy number ten. What British comedic actor played uncle plot? The Junkyard Dealer in Force Awakens. That would be Simon Pegg from Shaun of the dead and your bonus. The longest of the newest trilogy at two hours thirty two minutes was not not the force awakens. It was not the rise of skywalker. It was that second film. The last Jedi the last Jedi which I liked. I didn't love it but I saw saw that movie. I think three times in theaters which in modern days I never see. He's more than once. Because I have no time but that movie came out right at the peak of movie pass so I just kept going with everybody who wanted to go and those are your questions for today. Thank you so much for playing along with the episode. It's time for one more question called the question of the day. This is one we do at the end end of every episode. And it's brought to you by our sponsors locally here in Sandy Miss California Funky Monkey Designs FM DESIGNS INC DOT COM. Check out their website. Click the link in the show notes and get get yourself. Some t shirts printed do a really good job for you to tell them bud. -centia what network originally aired the show. You Rica's castle. Tweet me your answer. Ryan buds or email Ryan buds at gmail.com email dot com to be eligible for a prize. Yesterday's questions that they answer was Terry for Hogan's real first name and your Trivia team of today is Bob's wall burgers a combination of Bob's burgers and the reality show slash venue while Burgers Bob's wall burgers if you're looking for some last last last minute. Christmas shopping thing or some Christmas stuff that you don't mind getting shift after Christmas. GO TO DREW BLANK DOT COM. He is my pop culture art making friend and you can use the Code Buds twenty-five to save twenty five percent site-wide on really cool stuff like big lebowski parks and REC office and Bill Murray coloring books just to name a few things he does pins. He does bookmarks. He does fake vinyl records. They're all very very cool and unique. Check them out at drew blank. Dot Com use the code buds twenty-five. Thank you guys for listening to today's episode. Thanks for telling a friend. We'll see you tomorrow for more Trivia with me cheers in your nine
Interview with divorcee Jessica K-Soul Friend
"Regardless of how we find ourselves in the world of divorce. The one thing we have complete control over is how we behave from here on out. We have two choices one is to remain stuck in the stories the anger and pain and the other is to take a breath adjust our sale to the wind and work harder than ever before to create a new story off for our children for ourselves. And for the world around us. It's your choice your work, but all be in your corner. Welcome to in your corner divorce podcast. My name is Carly Ezreal and I am your host. Today I am very excited to have the privilege of talking with Jessica. Hello, Jessica. Hi Carly. So Jessica a little background, we were matched by the universe for a number of reasons one of our mutual friends found my writing and they knew your writing and they said we are like soul sisters and we became each other's cheerleaders along the way you were further along the way than I was and we both wrote for HuffPost before or Postal doubt no vents on both and and open heart open vulnerability like raw credit from our blood. This is the first time we get to speak in person virtually. I want to read some words that you wrote that I stole from you. I am a work-in-progress. I have started the next chapter, but the book is not yet finished being written. I am a sketch not a masterpiece. I am still me at my core though that me. She knows only one true faith in this journey. The only way over is through the only way over is through the only way to get there is to do it some days that just means getting up and putting one foot in front of the other and other than that means discovering humor passion and strength. We might have believed we no longer had Jessica welcome. Thank you so much. Garlic, you know, those are often. I haven't thought about in a long time. I love that that was that was a good reminder. Thank you. I invited need to speak with so cool about that is another reason why we're supposed to be together is your line is the only way over his through and mine is the only way out is through and we're like one word apart because we both recognize that you cannot walk through this shitshow of life without dealing with all the job. Very darkness in the hallways pulling it out saying this doesn't fit me anymore. You're never going to fit into these bands anymore. Let's get rid of them. Right? So, I'm excited to have you on here because I truly believe that what one of our jobs here on this planet is to give each other permission and I think that you do a really great job of that in all the aspects you let us see of you on social media at least and so and you're not one of those social media posters that only post perfect things which is so appreciative are will you tell me we're going to go back in time beep beep tell me about your first marriage what you can feel Looking Back Now was not working. You know, it's funny. Are we where I assume we can be super transparent right explicit swearing vulnerable transparent bra. So when my ex-husband in college and we were you know, like all college kids there was people who like, you know hooked up with each other off on and off Etc while also hooking up with other people all that and at the time I really felt more invested than he was and I was encouraged by a lot of my friends. Mm kind of get off that bandwagon. You're only going to get hurt kind of thing and then you know, I hate to say it but like a lot of men or people limited I actually was dating somebody else that's you know, of course when God, you know Etc. So I give you that background to say that I think that one of the things that I was always told by my parents was that no relationship has ever 50/50 right? And so I'm I'm I convinced myself. I think that it was okay that I was more invested initially because you know, then he was kind of making an equal investment, but I also dead. But when you're young and you really want to pursue something and it suddenly becomes available you are able to overlook so many things that should be red flags. And you're young right? I mean you you really you don't know all of you and you don't know what you don't know right? You don't know what you're supposed to 100% And I hit England's even then that I was not a a straight woman but a lot of them but you know, we we grew up in a in a hard time because we weren't so suppressed like you would have been maybe in the seventies or eighties but we were like our kids now. Do you know what I'm saying? We weren't able to live in our truth without having to think it was going to change our whole universe and I remember my first crush. I was in high school. I was on a teacher that I had and I remember thinking well, you know, not only can I not confess that to a friend but like that's like borderline illegal and so like I shouldn't be having these thoughts and so again all of that I think played in but I think with with my husband and I my ex-boss I think you know I knew very early on that a friend said to me once for you the sun rises and sets with him and I'm not sure he he feels that way and it should have it should have been signed but I I made the Cardinal mistake the one none of us could break which was I moved my whole being left my family my friends my job to be where he was and so once I did I I kind of felt like I was stuck and so all the red flags every time they came up I just was like put I'm here what I did some of the red friends. What were some well you a perfect example, you're ready. I once asked him cuz this to me, I know it's going to sound simple but it is the epitome of the downfall of our relationship I once said, how come you never buy me flowers? And he said I'm not really a flower guy and I was like, but I'm a flower girl. Oh, right. So like does that help because I'm I can get into the like nitty-gritty of birth. Shows but I think that actually I've always thought that's like a great summary of actually all of our issues which was if you don't like if it's about you and it's all about you and that's not how you think then how I feel and what I need or never going to be a factor and then you know, we had kids and you know, there were a million red flags before we got married trust me and I ignored all of them, but then we had kids and then you're kind of in and you think oh, well the kids and you can't, you know, you you're still going to be just like oddly. I mean, I'm an Uber feminist an Uber liberal and somehow you become just like traditional. You can't fuck this shit up because you know, it'll hurt the kids and I do remember another like another one of those was like taking my daughter to the grocery store and having her same how can we only get green apples when you go to the grocery store? And I said cuz Daddy can never remember that mommy only likes green apples. That right there kills me and like my sweetheart store the sweethearts that were eighty eight cents that ended my marriage like there was so many things and I would like CVS or Rite Aid and I saw this week starts to radiate since I got him from my husband because I knew he loved them and I brought him home. I ever putting them down and being like you would never get me what you know, I love even if it's 88 cents. Yeah, and you know what you want to know what an idiot I am to this day to this day. I still buy him random. So he gets I saw this is going to be such a woman if anyone who listens is a fan of Trader Joe's they have the, you know, everything but the bagel yes bab minutes when we were married. So like obviously I'm a New Yorker big table girl whatever, you know, you know, so when when he first got introduced a real bagels and he was like, you know, he would take the seeds out of the bed and he's like poor them on top of his cream cheese. And so when I saw that and it was a brand new one like oh my goodness. I mean he would so I bought him And I dropped it off and he has his girlfriend who has his live-in girlfriend, but at the time I don't think live there must have somehow found out that I had bought it and we have no issues but we're sort of like wow, that's so nice home and like actually said it as if like, you couldn't just be like a human to somebody else right? But anyway, yes, I agree with you. So I think that's not red plan. So so long, I mean a really, you know, just weren't so many so many different things see the world differently. I think I also you know, like I had this old school idea that like wage was from the Midwest and Midwestern boys were so much nicer. That was somewhat true. You know what I mean? Like there wasn't that bro factor that I had a lot of guys, I'd grown up with had I hate using but that's the one my kids use. And so I think I believe that that meant that he was kind in his core and I'm not here to be badly when he's not a bad person. He was just not the right husband. Yep. For me. Yeah, you know for Fourteen years, but we had been together for twenty years. I didn't know myself without him we had gotten together. I was not even twenty one years old. Like I could wasn't moved couldn't drink legally. Not that I didn't do it. Anyway, you know, so like you you that's the other pieces that somehow it just becomes like by road, which I'm sure you know, you know and you you stop remembering that life what you need actually matters and I remember at some point at the very end. He did not want to get divorced. He comes from a family of divorce and he saw divorce as as you know, he once said to me rather have a c marriage c as in the grave get divorced and I was like, no I can't really say why it's like who who verbalize is that? What is the courage and they want to do it for the rest of your life what that's how people feel people feel. I remember thinking to myself were saying to him once and this was I think the Crux of it. It's one thing for me to come second after the cat. I expect that. It's another thing for me to come third after you your first the kids are second. And I'm third and I can't spend I can't be third for the rest of my life. I just can't afford it went was there a dog like this is the word Ur work. Oh, okay. Okay family kids than me. Oh, wow. That's that's pretty low on the totem pole. So and you know from my story that there weren't bruises there was an infidelity. It was just extremely loneliness and neglect. But I think that's one of the things we do to ourselves is that we convince ourselves there has to be those things. So it has to teach somebody has to lie. Somebody has to have to spend all your money at a casino or took my family, right? You know what I'm saying? Like it has to be before well and at some point my mom said to me once would you want your marriage for your children the best song? To say it again. Would you want your marriage for your children? That is what pushed me over the edge. I pictured my son Graham is if he was in his 30s coming to me crying. I did all of this work and this is still what's happening and me, how do you say son? I stay with your father for see marriage and you're going to save yours. That would kill me. You want your marriage for your children? So tell me when you started telling him how you were feeling and he didn't want he wanted to see marriage. What happened? What did you do to finally get to the divorce? It's funny that you asked that way cuz I'm pretty sure that I told him how I I'm not shy so I told him how I felt I'm pretty sure from the minute that I moved here and it became clear to me that even though I had wage which I hate the idea, but I gave an ultimatum but essentially you're asking you to pick up my whole life. So I anticipate will get engaged and that it took a 13 months for him to pull the trigger which really should have been another red flag and it was but it wasn't dead. Enough, you know what I'm saying? Cuz eventually he did do it. But so yeah, I mean, I think I always express my feelings and it was just a matter of getting to the point where it was the opposite. I think you know, like you're asking when at what point did he not care about our sales? I got to the point where I realized I was no longer telling him how unhappy I was I had spent so much time telling him and realizing it didn't matter. I didn't change anything. It didn't it didn't get us anywhere that my breaking point was more when I got to the place where I realized. I'm no longer sharing how I feel I no longer complaining your voice in here it we're just three different couples counselors three six years. I'm like literally at some point. I was like, I'm a marriage counselling fatal error, and I'm that that's that's kind of because the thing is he'd show up but he wouldn't do the work, right so he could say he was there he could say he was trying but he wasn't really willing to wage. But the effort end and you know, unless it came to know having more sex or you know, like the things that were tangible that he could maybe do he had he would try but like the actual like listening wage and and processing before you respond and trying to understand someone else's side. Yeah, they just wasn't he wasn't willing to do the Reagan. Like I said, not a bad person just the wrong wrong at some point. I got to the place where I was like, we're just a square peg in a round hole and those two things are never ever going to fit and there's nothing that I can do to change that, you know, like I'll never forget about you know in hindsight when I came out there were people who were like, oh is that why you got divorced? I was like no, but we want to know something funny when I came out and I told him that's a huge reaction was don't ever let people think that's why we got divorced. Wait, hold on. No, no, no, no, no, no not the way you think it off. I said what do you mean and he was like, well, I had no idea about that that about you and so I don't want people to think that I did I was like wait. So let me make sure I understand you'd rather people think that divorce cuz you're an asshole then because I came out and he was like, I guess if you have to put it that way. Hey Jessica, I was like, here's me. I'm like, oh my God, he's so awesome. Yeah, so that's like telling you never let someone make this what it's about because you know, it's about so much more and he's say I basically don't want the universe to think I turned you gay pretty much. Yep month. You're going to see my face. I should have seen my face cuz I remember just freezing in the moment and being like Oh For the Love of All Things So Beautiful to turn me gay, but also like you're a victim again and I had said very clearly like I want to be very clear like, you know, I I hate the word bisexual but that's why I identify this is not about me saying like, oh, I was always wrong to be with men. No, not at all. I love men and I'm attractive man, whatever but like this is my birth. Like I really left this other side of me unexplored and I feel like it's probably what the rest of my life looks like because I've kind of done this and I realize that while I can love men and be attracted to men. I don't know that that's wrong like the police. I'm supposed to live in the space and supposed to let him forever. And now that I have moved into this other space of having a relationship with women, I realize like this is what resonates in my soul and but I said, but I really want to be very clear that like, I don't like that that word like something wrong with my sexual lots of people identify. That way just not aware that like resonates with me so much and I think it's probably cuz I came out when I was about forty and again, but but with that said it's still the word he uses despite having told him that day five years later. It's still the way he uses when he refers to it. Wow, so he tell me how old are your children when you guys told them that you were going to get worse Day Ever, right? So, okay, so we was so so so terrible. So we we did we were away we were on vacation in my pet dog. House in Florida and we were sleeping in the same bed and we got in a fight. It's the dumbest fight you've ever heard but you'll understand and it was my breaking point. I remember it like it was yesterday. For some reason. He had this big issue with me calling people and I'll never understand why because this was not a gender thing like people like thank you, sir. Thank you, ma'am, you know, like whatever like having that and this generally were in Florida this gentleman held this folder General the man has been in his eighties. He held the door for me on the way into a pizza place. And I said, thank you sir. And as the words were coming out of my mouth. I had this moment of oh my goodness. He is going to give me a hard time for having said that I still don't really actually understand what his issue was. But anyway, and I turned down and I can see that like tension and I thought well no I never want to do this again. I never want to be just a polite human being who doesn't think about just being doing the right and polite thing off. And being judged by my person my partner, he's got my back for for something that he still hasn't been able to explain to me the why it bothers him. And so I remember I literally I kid you not clearly. I remember like turning around seeing his face. We went that way brought the pizza home everybody eight. Excuse me. We went to bed bath. I said, I want a divorce and he was like what and we had talked about it a hundred times. It wasn't like this is a new topic and I was like I'm done and he was like why right now and I told him and he was like God, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard like you want to get divorced because I don't like that you call that guy sir, and I was like, no I want to get divorced because you absolutely do not know me and we have been married for fourteen years and we have two children and all the houses and you and you don't know that I like green apples and I'm a flower girl and it's okay to call an eighty-year-old May or to say to a name. And thank you sir, and and have that be perfectly reasonable. And so yeah, so I'm done. So that was yeah, that was the December was like right before, you know over the holidays you are actually in that moment. You are finally cuz you said you start talking about how it took me three at least three years from the first time. I thought I'd rather be divorced and be in this marriage three years three. Or to the moment that I actually in that on that day said I'm done. I'm so done something real quick and then between us so one of the other things I do besides coaching clients through their divorce is I actually can't do this session called figuring it out who are like, you know, cuz you know, like when you're a divorced person people come to you and they're like, I don't know what to do. Yeah. Oh so many I became like the the back of the the Jewish book of why I came in there. He came to the book of divorce. So what I do, they always say, you know a good marriage counselor, and I'm like, not really I'm so I literally dead. I know like two that are great, but the rest of them were like and so I say like look here's the deal. I do this session called figuring it out. It's super uncomfortable. It's an hour. We're going to sit there and talk about the most uncomfortable questions. It's not going to be about feelings. It's going to write leave that shit on the table the most uncomfortable question. I asked them after the second most uncomfortable question in front of them, which place are you still in love with each other and one of them says something different I say to them if you had no children, would you feel differently about this decision? Oh, yeah, and they're like one of them immediately answers. Absolutely and one of them looks at the other person like, how could you just say that when you know, right? Oh, yeah, you would have been done three years before that or ten years before that pod, right? I remember saying that to my then husband cuz he just wasn't getting it no matter how much we like nothing I said penetrated and when I said that it was like dead. I was in The Truman Show and I showed him that there was like a producer behind there like he was that you were saying these things and I'm like, I can't believe you think I'd want to stay with someone who doesn't know that I am travels and gets so bad when I say thank you sir to a gentleman who's opening the door for like thank you sir. Thank you, sir. So you tell the girls how old are they and in seven years and what blows my mind to this day Carly is I'm a crier. It's who I am my nature my ex-husband. I have seen including the this particular day. I seen probably two other times in the whole time. We've been together when he I say he cried he bawled so hard that the kids became like we had agreed we were going to be calm rational explain and listen to them. She cried so hard which I don't fault him for it's fine. But like they felt they had to take care of him. So like we're on an L shaped couch. I'm sitting by myself in a corner and they're like in his lap stroking his face like he so khong Daddy it's a while cuz they had they never seen him cry in their whole lives ten and seven. So like they literally were like what's happening like it was it was yeah, so they were 10-7 which is a hard time because they, you know, they remember like a lot of my friends who've gotten divorced when their kids are five and under I think you know, my my understanding is that eventually the kids have almost no mention of their parents really having having ever been together, you know, and my my younger one hundred percent were members, but her memories are a little bit more vague because she served her she's fourteen years or so. So we we were married half her life and not married have her life. My older one hundred percent like could can you know recollect with detail, you know, cuz she was ten going on eleven. So tell me how much the actual divorce was. Did you guys do well during that what are some mistakes that you need listeners can hear and go. Oh I should not do that. You know, it's a good question because I I do believe God I can hear you. Yeah, go keep going. So I believe that I set out to have a kind of divorce that you are talking about. That was yeah. Yep. That was always my goal that Brian of really focused on the kids. You know that that the idea of of the Northstar not just being what's good for your kids but like always what's good for you to secondarily I know like with with a couple of of streams in there that allow you to know okay, but a healthy mommy is a healthy kid. So ninety percent of this needs to be focused on the kids, but in this in this in a few areas, you know, it has to either be this is good for mommy or this is good for Daddy, you know, you have to remember that like you said healthy mommy equals healthy kids and so we did it in when I look back if you were to ask anyone who was on the outside. They would say oh you guys had such a nice divorce like but you know, I mean it so yeah, we didn't have an ugly blowout, you know filing truck off. Those things we started with a mediator which I highly recommend first of all, it reduces costs and second of all it really allows you to kind of lay all the cards on the table and have a real wage perspective. The other thing is like, you know, I think it's different if you come from millions of dollars or you have you know, some of those factors but if you are like the average middle-class family, I think it can save a lot of money and it keeps you out of court. So we started there I will say I think we made a bad choice on who we chose for that. We somebody who I think was really a misogynist and so long and they were a couple of things. I think I was convinced I needed to do that. I think it had we had someone who was a little bit more. I'm kind of liberal or more open-minded. Maybe there wouldn't have been this idea that like, of course the dad and the sort of bigger Breadwinner should have acts but not here nor there. It is what it is and then the the responsible thing to them. I guess in that situation is then when the papers are final to eat for each of you to get your own your own lawyer. If I had to do it over again, I think mediation is amazing. I would have gotten my lawyer earlier. Not just when the paperwork was essentially final cuz then we spent a lot of money where she was essentially like there's a bunch of things in the right way. So it was like the helping you rewrite what you just settled on exactly. So so that was that was the first thing that I would do differently again, I would definitely still do mediation to sort of figure it all out. But then make sure you have someone who's advocating for you and who understands the law because the other thing is, you know, you and I are in different states and the name was for divorce or one of those very nuanced things that are very different by state. Right? So, you know, California, everything is a fifty-fifty split. You know, Ohio has been everyone has different rules. Illinois's impose, you know, some new rules on alimony based on the length of your marriage. So so that was another thing that I think I would do differently bring in my own counsel early on and then I will save Council was a woman and as a woman, I would say I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with the mail attorney whatsoever. But there are some things sort of like a female OBGYN that I felt really strongly about that. I'm glad that I did have a female lawyer and the and interestingly my ex also had a female lawyer. So, you know, there was that the other thing that I think I would do differently though. I do look back and I am glad wage most part. Is that what this is earlier on is that if you're still married and for any reason you receive an inheritance and you have any questions about your marriage is please please do not put that into communal in a in a communal account or you lose all yes all access to anything more than 50% of it. So that would be the other thing is that if I could do it over again and that's not in the divorce, but it was only a few years prior and I had a feeling I shouldn't do it but then that feeling felt terrible. So I think the other thing is to say especially when it comes to money women wage. Especially if you make less than your spouse and you're in a traditional, you know opposite sex relationship. I would highly recommend that there's nothing wrong with a prenup number one and number two. There's nothing wrong with that little tiny voice inside your head that says, maybe maybe maybe I should not take this thing that is just in my name. So let's give me address this for a second because it's so important that you're bringing this up and so uncomfortable. But hello, we're old enough and mature enough to talk about this. Okay. Absolutely. I remember sitting in my divorce attorneys office with my mother who wanted to come and support me and I remember the attorney looking my mom going. How could you give them the property in both of their names? Like what were they supposed to do in the lawyer? Give it just your daughter and my mom's like we didn't know that right where they come from a good marriage no longer the first divorce and right so after that everything started shifting and how I started looking at things and then I started realizing after going through our messy legal part of it was everything needs to be honest about this kind of stuff like fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. Nobody wants to look at that. Okay, none of us. Do I got remarried you're getting remarried. I did not do a prenup. I'm doing a postnup. Currently. We just finished all of it off. Because here's the deal money is shity and uncomfortable. Yep, and nobody wants to talk about it and her talk about it when no one's fighting and so liked each other and wage. They look no one wants to die. But we still have life insurance. Right? Nobody wants to crash a car but we still pay for car insurance. This is just so we don't have to deal with the yucky Financial stuff down the road. Yes, but I also I also think it has to do with your kids. So as an example, we have we have very very different approaches to how to pay for college and the problem is in the state of Ohio in your divorce. You do not not required to speculate how that'll get paid other states do allow you to talk about finances post 18 on children, but Ohio does not so, you know on Good Counsel obviously his lawyer. Basically what I want that the divorce I wanted it in the divorce. So I was able to negotiate at least some payments into a 529 but they're minimal and blah blah blah, you know, I think that is the kind of thing that like, it's not just wage. Money as in terms of this is mine and this is yours, but it's about how you see a radically and you know approach life and he and I just feel extraordinarily different about how many ghosts children I essentially feel like my children should have everything when I say everything. I don't mean everything they you know, like expensive gifts and but I'm saying my daughter is my older daughter is extremely hard-working and she works her butt off. And if that means that she can get into a school that has twice the price of a lesser school. I will read mortgage my house to get her there. He has a set amount of money. This is what I'm seeing on College not anymore and if she wants to go somewhere then you know, and he's entitled to feel that way like I don't agree with it, but right I'm also not saying it's not a theory. I'm just saying those are the things if you don't figure them out before they become an issue, this is exactly where these things go and you know, I'm glad to hear you're doing a posting up but like my fiance and I like we were there was not even a question. We were like cleaning up 100% off. He was never married cuz gay marriage was not legal, but she was with the same person for a very long time almost two decades and even in that situation since they had adopted a child together, seeing was become very complicated and the young people to think about it is don't think about the money prenups any of those things. Don't think about those things in terms of oh, it's a terrible thing to ask think about your kids. That's it. If you have kids, that's all you need to think about. That's all off because the minute you get divorced you no longer have any influence about how the other person approaches money when it comes to your kids and you cannot influence what they want to pay for it what they want to do or how do they want to you know view the world and so that is where these things come in and if I had to do it all over again, I would have done but like, you know, I got married. I was twenty-five like in my mind. Of course, we were going to be together forever, you know, but again hindsight's twenty-twenty but I did want to add one thing. So the thing I am most proud of about my divorce Carly is that the day we signed the papers. So again mediator lawyers off Got a ton of fighting quite honestly certain things were pretty clear pretty cut-and-dry something sucked big hairy Rhino balls because I said Gary Ryan over. Yeah, dents and things like that that you know had to be split just things that felt very unfair, you know to me money. I'd invested in his practice that I wasn't you know, but can I ask you a question? Yeah. I can so relate to what you're saying about things feeling very unfair. Do you think that our exes feel that way too? Oh every single time he made an alimony payment for 5 years. In fact to the point where there were things that I would say, I think you need to pay for this for the kids and he'd say you're getting every penny you're getting from you right now. When I'm done paying alimony, we can talk about Mortgage in distribution of the money that goes to the children. So like somehow the fact that I was getting alimony was favorite child to what would hold on. I paid off his lumps. Yeah when we when we bought Married, so we would have no debt. I supported us completely for four years of dental school. He didn't make a penny. I worked the whole time. I got an inheritance and invested a large portion in the down payment of his practice and another portion in the house, which he got an even distribution. I was a moron trust me an absolute. I'm with you I'm with you but so my point is yes, of course, they feel like it's unfair cuz in his mind the idea that I had because it to me to to this is what really gives the right. But because why I went back to work after a year, we got I'd always perfect but I I worked for myself and I did make as much I went back to a full-time position after we got divorced and so then in his mind it should have found the alimony. But yeah, you'd have to go to court to make it just it was it was it's just stupid. But yes, he definitely felt like he would still tell you this but he felt like he he got the raw end of the deal. He had to pay me too much money, but I want to go to something positive feel like this has gone down a negative path and this goes back to your North Shore, you know point which is that, you know, again mediator divorce attorneys, you know, again lots of discussion, but not often horrendous horrendous fighting and we did get the whole thing wrapped up in 11 months, which I've heard is a pretty decent, you know matter of time and I said to him listen, this sucks. Neither one of us wanted to be here and it's going to be a hard day. We paid extra to sit in the judge's Chambers to sign our papers instead of having to go to court or anything like that. I'm sorry in our lawyer's office instead of going to the judge's Chambers what I'm off. And I said, I'd really like for us to sign the papers and then go out to lunch together and we did three but that is really beautiful. We went out to lunch. We had a Bloody Mary song. I don't even know we had like some kind of sort of Mexican food. I think and a drink together and then we had a big hug and we went on our separate ways and I really felt that that I had and he was really a little hesitant. He was young. He said yes, but I could tell he was a little like what I do want to do this. Like are you sure you sure and and then actually he did say to me afterwards like well while afterwards but you know, that was that was a good idea like that was when I you know, when I look back like that's one of the pieces of that. I totally blocked this out I think because of pain but what we did, you know television was not home. I think I'd ever read the percentage of people who have sex right after they get older. I just tell you what we did was I said, let's drive together to the call log. so we don't have to both pay for the garage and that was very unpleasant that was not an idea here's what I want to ask you before we get off a good stuff tell me some of your co-parenting wins okay so we are on the same page about things like the kids getting Bat Mitzvah home we didn't agree on how to pay for it but we definitely agree that the kids were too young to make that decision for themselves and that we insist they could take their Judaism however they wanted after 13 but they were going to Hebrew school they were getting but it's fun and we were very adamant about that together we are both very focused on their education and very involved you know in in their school work and and all of that and have a very similar approach mine is probably I'm more strict and more and more involved but we have a very similar approach to school is essentially like the most important thing you said You need to have a you know, a well-balanced life, but you know, this is this is your number one priority what other wins oh, we do all the holidays together. Obviously. I told the Jewish holidays together. We don't do things giving a single. But what does that look like? You have break time together? I invite well, so keep in mind. My family's in New York, right? So my his family here is my family, you know what I mean? So yeah every year either I invite everybody. So nor he doesn't love to host he has once or twice but his mom or his sister we all live in the same community. So like let's pretend if we were in like Shaker although Bexley smaller than shake the same thing yet, right? Okay, so normally I host and I invite everyone whole family. He's got four parents. His girlfriend's his brother took his girlfriend's his sister his sister's husband and her you know for kids and his family just divorce, you know, you're lucky nobody did and I'll tell you what his sister's dog. Who I've always been closer to than he was is still one of my very best friends. And you know, I wish I saw a more of my nephews than I do that has big covid-19 that harder I still care of them before that. But yeah, that's a parenting win honestly. So we show up at we we show the games together we show up at performances together. We I am very cuz you know my 1/2 biggest rules number to which most people like walk out the door. Like I'm trying to give up gluten is you have to sit at all events near each other. Yes, we buy the tickets together. I mean, I am big into theater and so we bought the theater tickets get and now they're both doing sports and unfortunately in covid-19 of limited limited parent, you know, yeah allowed to kind of sit in the audience, but what's that called? I think of like limited fans, but yeah, we always we always do those things. So all all holidays are all Jewish holidays. So what Passover Yom Kippur off Halloween together when you were little. Yes always and we would just flip who was you know whose house is going to help clients that they should put that in their shared parenting plan that they should write off plan because I know when other people like we're Partners come in and that they're like, I don't want you having dinner with whatever you want to get rid of that immediately. I I want to switch off course. First of all, I'm so impressed with you. I want to switch cars and read something that and I want you to tell me about it. Okay wrote part of the process of divorce at forty after 14 + years of marriage is reinvention. It's impossible to go back to who we were at twenty-five and it's impossible to move forward without significant change. Tell me about how you refer to yourself as 2.0. Wow, I am 2.0 in all the way as like you said I lost my voice and it took a while to regain my voice finding that voice allowed me to realize that that voice needed to go into a different direction. I thought new partners, but also I think I got to a place where I realized like my ex used to I embarrassed in easily, right? I'm an East Coast or mm. Wow, that's interesting because his mother is the same way. So we're not like he wasn't until he came from a house of quiet people and the girl and so he would be the kind of person who would like grab my arm work with me under the table and I mean never like in it appears that way but more in like a okay enough quiet we're and then you know use the word shut up, which I I can't handle or can you bring you know, whatever it would and so I found that I started questioning. I can hear you. Keep going. Yep. Can you hear me. Keep going you found you started questioning and it was questioning myself. But more I was questioning wasn't just my voice, but I was questioning my faith my like ability to be like all of the parts. You know what I'm saying? Like I had started limiting like okay. It's okay to be this, but I can't be this or you know. So you're questioning all the parts of yourself. Are you editing yourself? 100% and I'm also being like a tenth of me a quarter of me three tenths of me 9/8 of meat, you know what I'm saying? Like not can't be 98782 make you know what I'm saying? And so God. Yeah. I think that was one of the biggest things in the 2.0 was to say no, you know what like we're all imperfect and sometimes we suck in different ways but like all of you is okay. And when when you finally embraced that you know, it's it's it's going to be a good thing. The other thing is, you know, no idea if this is something you buy into but I recognize that some point during my divorce that anxiety was getting the best of me put myself on some meds helped tremendously and my God gave me a better option. I mean like I found that like I don't like listen I'm a loud person, but I don't yell anymore at my children. It's not necessary, but I don't need to like I don't need to dig my heels in I can I can you know, because I think at some point you become Person who like gives their heels and when they can because you feel like you're constantly being forced to look at other things and I also just at some point I was like you are enough exactly how you are. It's okay. And and you know what, honestly Carly I think the biggest Revelation was one day sitting in my doctor's office my my therapist office and she said to me what is your feel? Like if I were to tell you you might be going to the rest of your life and I said better than being with how I was and we were already divorced at that point but like better than being how I was I my life is great. I have good friends. I have amazing kids. I have a great family life has sucked for the last few years, but I'm recovering and I'm okay with that. Like I I would rather be alone than ever make myself small again home. And you know, I know you're a glutton fan but like the whole concept of making ourselves small and and being small is one that I really I buy I totally because I'm a big personality and I'm home. Myself smaller and smaller and smaller to fit into this this box of not being too much and also empowered me in this relationship with my husband. Yes say, like look, I know. I'm not we got in a fight because I have star tattoos on my butt and his little daughter was talking about it cuz he thought she thought it was so cute and funny and he's like, I don't want her to talk about that girl. I want her mom to know that you have star tattoos on your button. I said it was right before we were about to get married. He's never told me that before ever dealing with his ex and I remember having tears in my eyes sit down. Him and say I'm not sure if you tell me I can't talk about certain things and it was because of that conversation. You just talked about of being held under the table and being told she's don't say that because I would rather be alone with my story ass and talk about whatever I want to talk about. Let me told to be quiet. Yeah, I literally could walk. You forever. I have to read one more thing because I have another interview but honestly, I'm glad she was ready where stalkers is the problem. See if we can I help you. Yes, go ahead so long before we end I want to read some of my favorite words of yours all the way back four years ago from 2016 and I'm in a link in the episode notes you all of your writing me cuz it was so awesome. And I would want to in Corrie and I want to read some of my favorite words of yours 2016. I'm a work-in-progress. I have started the next chapter, but the book is not yet finished being written. I am a sketch not a masterpiece. I am still me and my core though that me she knows only one truth in this journey. The only way of life is through I love that Jessica wrote this I love the hat her writing is so similar and we find each other and each other's words and I want to wish the listeners dog. Our very best thank you for any listeners would like to go deeper into my story check out my Memoir seconds and inches available in paperback audio or digital life regardless of how we find ourselves in the world of divorce. The one thing we have complete control over is how we behave from here on out. We have two choices one is to remain stuck in the stories wage anger and pain and the other is to take a breath adjust our sale to the wind and work harder than ever before to create a new story for our children for ourselves and for the world around us. It's your choice your work, but all be in your corner welcome to in your corner divorce podcast. My name is Carly Israel, and I am your host. On Amazon Barnes & Noble iTunes and indiebound. Remember we get to write this next chapter for our kids for ourselves and for the world around us. Have a great day.
07: Kimmy Yam // The Breadth of Our Stories
"Hey that I'm Sarah Porat. And you are tuning into the hear us. Roar podcast odd cast join me for inspired conversations with Asian women chatting about how ideas and passions getting night truly transformative journeys on today's as episode. You'll learn about why yom was called to report an Asian American news and what inspired her to co found post Asian voices helping to bring up issues into the mainstream we've existed as Siri tubes for so long and then have been invisible in media for so long you know it's media thinks the only stories worth covering our representation in Hollywood and that is our our community is so much bigger than that you know and in. There's much more urgency in other areas as well so I think there needs to be like a shift in that understanding but I sure I think my favorite stories stories to report are the ones where I understand that no one else is reporting this or that no one else is going to get right and I will do do the work to try to bring it to the surface because it is so much of the work in reporting specifically Asian American news yes to breaking down. Stereotypes Areo types yes to getting the story right. And thank you Kimmy for putting in the work so that not only can we better understand our own communities and issues and better articulate our personal storylines but that others can come to understand asian-americans within the larger cultural context in a truthful and meaningful way. Let's get into it with kidney I grew up upstate and my town was very very small as a very working class white town and there aren't many other other age there's a barely any other people. Just don't see us and so it's to the point. Where like if you saw another agent the grocery store it'd be like Holy Shit you know it's it's like very very small town America situation? Everybody knows everybody. You know like we all grow up together and it's not much changes and I used to hate it so much but I think about all the time. Now it's funny funny how that works in upstate New York. Yeah I'm C. N.. I grew up in a Chinese restaurant. John Family as many Fujian's people do you know. I have a twin sister who looks nothing like me. Yeah yeah which is like people are like. Oh my God are you guys like clones. And it's like no sisters like two inches shorter. Look nothing like nothing like me. But she she's like the much Nicer Nicer version O.. Style she's she is so much like less insane she's like the. The rational was speaking as an insane person. It's it's pretty. Fun has his perks. You know you know when you out. People aren't exactly surprise you know they're like oh she's not having a meltdown. Edwin takes the pressure off of you coming from one child family myself. Oh Yeah I wouldn't know how that is like that. Must that must come. Its own pressures but oh I guess there was just like a lot of pressure to be something only because I think you know. My parents don't have college degrees or anything like that and it was very much like okay. If you go do this thing called college you'll have options and so just knowing that that was something that had to be done was a big deal and I think that's why in the earlier part of my life. I didn't really have many other goals. The goal was just to go to college. I think that a lot of like first generation kids. They're Kinda like that or it's like if your parents don't have much of an Education Asian than like going to college actively getting into school is like a big deal you know and and I know like my parents still wear so so much Georgetown merch every day. Yes awesome school so yeah. I'm not surprised. My Dad's still asked me for sweatshirts because that's just what he rocks so many Georgetown. I don't know I don't know if I would like pick it again. But I definitely went because Helen. Iris percents there. I was like if you're an underdog very unique human. I don't have my priorities straight. I was like hey I went there. If you're an underdog he speaks here And then also I remember when I like when I went to the campus and I took a tour and the tour guide was like very hot and I was like. Oh Yeah I was like everyone here is so attractive. Obviously I must go here live like then I'll be able to talk to boy. I WanNa talk to boys somewhere where everyone's but then when I got there I was like I don't no so. How was it because your your neighborhood didn't have a lot of Chinese people right? So that's very different. I feel then kind of because my mom also worked at a restaurant. uh-huh bagged groceries. She did all kinds of stuff. But we were surrounded by Asians so it does kind of normalize that kind of circumstance I feel like for you. How is it growing up in a restaurant family but not necessarily surrounded by other Asian Americans? Yeah I think that you know I had how does very like the earlier years. That upbringing was typical of many other restaurant families. Where you just like grow up in the restaurant you no But I do know that. There's a certain way that people see you after a while you're never going to be a a three dimensional person. It's just impossible because if you're one of the only Asian people in town and then there are no other references on screen than than their idea of agent people in a view or are just going to be extremely limited And so I think there was for a long time. This idea that we're service people so I remember going to ballet and these people had ordered food from the restaurant and there were no plastic force or something like that and this family just like looked at me and was like so where four. I'm like there to take class. You know what I mean. These people were like well. Okay serve you know. It's a very interesting very very weird. It's like wherever you go. It's it's you're not really you know you're not afforded the luxury of being that person. You know your your nickname is just. This can be Asian like. That's it was like me when nickname on the volleyball team. And it's so funny because you know back then you just want to be accepted so you don't say satit like okay isn't gonNA go within. Maybe that's why you're so loud and proud now. It's like very interesting that whole this whole whole trajectory. Because when I was younger I was very very loud. And crazy ounce vulgarity. My parents were like you know. Like I was always a troublemaker. It was like always like the fuck up like Oh. She's like climbing the wall now or she's league. Doing you know I was just like I want to do that. I I think that that is just like my personality is always just a little bit too fiery for like mostly. It's like a little bit more fiery than people are comfortable able with you know it's just that but then in high school because of I don't know because of everything that had happened like a lot of these like racist incidents. And then you know just like the overall world making you feel like you know you have no place in it. I think all of that balled up and I I just like retreated into myself for a long time. I was like very very depressed. Tall I could do was just dream of leaving. I think that college kind of made it more acceptable to be down with Asian people because they were just more Asian people there and they were like. Hey I'm Asian and like that's not scary to me and for me I was like holy war my entire life. I've been so not not okay with you know like my whole life. I felt like I had to just run away from whatever identity that was And so you know my Chinese is so poor right now and and just you know I had to like repatriate. My taste buds in so many ways. Because I just wouldn't eat Chinese food and in in different like self hating little things that you do to kind of a race whatever last remnants of that heritage then I return to my regular self that I knew was was there since I was like very little and it's like a been a very strange adventure and being like okay. I'm back to being like a crazy vigilant. I always knew she was there. I always like fucking new but like she disappeared for just like a couple of years and now she's back back so funny because I actually now that I think about it. The same thing happened to me. I was super bold when I was really really little and they really shy. I didn't even want to take pictures. I I was really depressed in high school as well. Society happens society happened self. Hate the things that people say to you make you think a certain way of yourself. Oh for sure and then ultimately you're just like it's not sustainable. It doesn't make me happy. And then you self reflect and then you. It's like a circle. It's very much about like being able to kind of expand beyond just what you knew before I think self self love is a process and sometimes we may need to traverse a full spectrum of experiences and emotions before we can begin to come back doc to who we are at the core and embrace ourselves in our cultures the diversity of people that kimmy encountered at Georgetown where she attended the School of foreign services definitely definitely helped her to open her eyes to a new norm. It's also where she started to find her voice which set her on her current path. I think I really wanted to be like Asian in metal and Albright for a long time and I love international relations and stuff like that but I do think that you know as soon as there was any type introduction to journalism and it was just something that I just felt like I needed to just check out you know and then you find out that in this field. You're never doing the same thing every day. Like every single day is crazy different and then just falling in. I love the idea that you could like. Create words like words on a page in like sewing these like sentences together and like creating something consumable for the public you know. I think that that was very interesting to me. So I never took any journalism courses in school school on my did internships and figured it out And then I was told that if you want to be the best report you can ever be if you really really want to refine in your skills you have to do print or you do digital. I was like okay so he gives them going to do that. And so you know that's really how I just landed in digital title because I just wanted to be the absolute absolute absolute best So you learned on the job basically how to be a good journalist. Oh Yeah for sure. And I think that journalism is kind of relentless a lot of ways and so you know you either finger. Swear or I. Don't I think only the strong will survive you know. Journalism is a very interesting Industry because everything that you do everything that you right is just for the public. You can't hide behind a lack of talent because you have to publish. It has to be out there you know and so I I just. I made like that pivot between college college and going over to huffpost what what happened. What kind of internships did you have just have post? Oh it was just awful but there is a fellowship program Alan and basically it was like a bunch of us are competing for just a couple of spots and so that was very stressful because it was like a weird game show where they put on teams. And then it's like okay go and then It was weird because if you were on the same team and other fellow that could basically only choose one person you know. It's like all of that so I think for my class like ten or eleven fellows and they only kept four. Okay yeah so it's it's a very competitive industry that way. There's no especially in those early years. You can't mess up you know and this was back in twenty fourteen when The Internet it was wild like it was like the rise of buzzfeed demise and then huffpost was a big big name. Yeah everything was about like speed and how to package headlines and how to be the most internet easy and like how much do you actually know your generation you know. It was very strange environment and very very competitive And so it was a weird time to come up but I'm glad that I did because I think that you know you. You don't go soft. What do you think was your competitive edge judge? I do know that when I'm when my heads in the game I can work harder and much more than anyone else like. I have no qualms qualms about like waking up at six thirty and then like going home at one. That doesn't bother me. You know like stuff like that is like whatever and so I always felt like uh if my heads in the game. I'm really passionate about something. I don't mind working my life way. Really do not give a flying fuck and and so you know. That's what I did competitive at. That's yeah I think for working people under the table. Yeah I think for a lot of the people with immigrant parents who you know you know that nothing is given to you and you see them. Work really really hard and I felt like I saw that and I knew that my parents I think seeing seeing that my parents were like this is just what we have to do and like we will do it because this is what this would guarantees and teaser plays in America and seeing something like that before your eyes and understand that that is tough and they didn't have choice. It's just like what is a couple of extra hours you know. The restaurant family life is tough. I mean those hours the conditions. The hours are so long. There's just you know no no one takes vacation but it really teaches you that you can do anything because like my parents worked much harder and it's manual labor where I'm not doing no manual labor. I'm just him have ideas. Like I mean it's weird because like my my parents definitely do get concerned still you know because they're like okay. Okay well you have college degrees. It's like weird that you're working so much like we're doing this but just knowing that the sacrifices aces before were so great that there's absolutely nothing that compared to that so so fucking if I have to work a little bit more so if if whatever is just like you know a little bit harder today what was the Asian News coverage like at huffpost before Asian voices and what made you want to launch something like that. Yeah I don't you know I don't think that we had a ton of Asian coverage and so it it was always I think in the back of our minds and then my editor Jesse praise she i. She's so smart. She's just I I would just Yeah I would one hundred percent trust my trust her with my life like no-brainer. She is so smart and she is so good I just fostering fostering kind of this environment where I felt like I could take on more difficult things or scary things or whatever and so we did finally launched the section and was for me it was pretty easy to get into coverage because I knew that I had already. You're sure ready. Yeah I knew that I had a mentor. That was going to steer you in the right direction and I knew that I had a mentor. Who knew what the fuck she was doing? And you know like justice incredible and so when I started pitching things and writing things and you know I I always have like ideas. Does that seem a little bit impossible and you know I think she would always find a way to be like no just do it. Just go ahead do it. Ah We'll figure it out and I think that you know. I think everyone needs something like that. I feel like I was very privileged to have that earlier in my career career. Yeah you're really lucky. And how did you guys actually work through pushing that concept through to huffpost. It was a very long process of lake proposals. And this and that or whatever but at the same time I think that there had become like a thirst for it around that time Jesse waters had done his insane segment on Chinatown and it was clear that it America had not changed from. It's like earlier years and things that were acceptable to them. Like making fun of Asians as comedy. We're still existent and so I think to some degree huffpost couldn't ignore that anymore. There is something to be said and I I think one hundred percent of mainstream media is flawed. It's incredibly flawed. But I do think that it's cool. That huffpost the allowed this section to happen you know because there's out of all mainstream media outlets posed. NBC In this kind of that's it and so in that way it felt like a really really big step for Asian media And then I think that because we were doing coverage and we're doing good coverage where it's like really actually reaching out to people and doing things the responsible way. I think that that you know no. I learned that from chess where it's like when you're developing your angle. You WanNa make sure that it's accurate you WanNa make sure it's reflective of the community and it pushes the community for. You're not going to do something that perpetuates another mid another stereotype or something that people read. eroneous believe you're not going to do that no more so I think that a lot of is just understanding what what gaps this community still spoken like a responsible journalist. I am so proud of Kimmy for really digging into and bring to light key. Issues Impacting Asian America and for providing perspective. That's very much been lacking in mainstream stream media. I'm also really touched by how open Kimmy is allowing us to learn from her vulnerabilities so out of curiosity. What's one big mistake? That you've made aide either in your personal life or in your career. That's actually helped. You grow in some way into who you are today mistake. I think that because I had a lot of these a lot of different self esteem issues growing up in a lot of these body issues growing up. I think that I had always always you know look towards like I do that in college I like I had I found. I found a boy and I really felt that so much of my value was attached to this into whatever he said would affect me so much. And it'd be so worried about you. You know my body and how it looked to him anything that there have been several tyler. He told me like my weight fluctuated so much and he would tell me that I. It didn't look nice a certain way or the I I had to lose weight. You know stuff like that a lot and I'm sure that compounded with everything that oh you are told when you were younger really does not help. I have a lot of trouble with that now and I think that that's why I've had you know a little bit difficulty. Dating is because whoever I'm with I'm scared that they're looking at me and be like ill like I I. I want a different body type and I've always been worried. Like Oh. Is this what he wants. I don't know like do do I have a we have ABS. Nice enough for is may ask big enough for. I don't know there's always like these things that go through my mind and I'm always like okay here. You can go off and get something better. And that's probably why he won't stick around you know is is because My physical features and so stupid because that's should never that it just should never be the case my relationship to men. I think that that's always. That's always going to be up in the air but as that's going on At least how something. That's keeping me grounded in that you know I personally am very thankful that I have a brain and I can. I'm confident in that. You know I'm confident. In my reporting I am confident in my ability to produce a good story. Yeah so I feel like I already know what you're gonNA save out this next question but if you were to go back in time and give your younger self some advice what would it be self love. Yeah a lot of self love and just just like stay reading books stay reading what's Fuck I. I don't think it's like possible to choose. I think the best book on Intergenerational don't trauma and I honestly think the best book on the Asian American experience right now. This year was Ocean Vong on earth. We are briefly. We're going to have to get on Amazon. Yeah he he really describes intergenerational trauma in in such. Shouldn't empathetic way. I think that the most important thing we need to be doing now as Asian Americans is generating empathy empathy. We don't quite fit into anyone's agenda in we are very much neglected and misunderstood because of this and I think that when you have something a book book like that where it it talks about the Asian American experience in such a humanizing in such a have a stating Lee beautiful way. I think think it really does make a difference by the way I have to congratulate. You got a new GIG. Yeah moving to NBC. Still covering Asian asian-american though So I'm God I'm going even more corporate. You have news right and you have reporting and you cannot forget that all all of this can be beautiful and that just turned on legs switch for me like why do we have to write sentences. It sounds stale all and bland. Or whatever like you can write beauty into everything and so then I definitely started understand like for me. It's important to read books out of time and I have to read one for you. Know to learn for factual whatever's whether it be like a nonfiction historical count of something or like you know stuff like that. I'll I'll have one book like that and then I'll read another book For its pros and for anyone starting out just read spend way less time partying because that is not important. I will never look back and be like I wish I did more partying like no. That is my advice. Good advice Thanks for taking the time to chat with me her and thank you for tuning in to hear us for podcast. Most if you connected with Kinney's journey please comment and be sure to hit that subscribe button also pop over to. WWW DOT h our podcast dot com. So that you can stay up to date on all the latest episodes. It's a great way I stay in touch so that I can continue to encourage you to see your passions loss up I'm your host Sarah Portrait and until next time.
"Hello Welcome to the cloud. Kitchens edition of sleep money guy to the business and finance news of the week. I'm Felix Salmon of axios. I am joined in the studio by anarchy of breaking views and I am joined not in the studio radio by Emily. Pack of Huffpost Emily. How's your snowball? And what is this. Noble Hello First of all the snowball. Is this cool. Microphone at that. It is route like a snowball. I love is it white. It's actually black and blue on it so in this. This is the problem with technology. Is You never really understand that. We are GonNa talk a lot about the way. That technology has changed the restaurant industry. We're going to talk a bunch about the way that technology is changing video because of course we had the big launch of Disney plus this week. And what's the other thing we're going to talk about. We're talking about the APPLECART ma'am. Oh Oh how could i. We're GONNA talk about the Apple. God we're GonNa talk about weather. On on apples. Glorious telephone based Credit Cud launched in conjunction with Masakadza US cod and Goldman Sachs is actually sexist. All that coming up on slate money this episode is brought to you. Buy Discover. Get your free credit scorecard today. Even if you're not a discover customer include your Fico Credit Score and checking. Your scorecard won't hurt your credit. Learn more at discover dot com slash credit scorecard limitations apply Let's talk about the Apple Cod. I am sitting opposite a blank chair. which would normally be Sandton by Cathy? O'Neil I feel like Kathy. Neal is the spiritual presence in the room. She's actually traveling today but she did. Give an interview to Aaron Mac of slate. If you want to read that that she this is basically what she has been talking about. Since the first day she came onto slate money is the idea that this impact impact is the technical time. It's the idea that you can build an algorithm which ostensibly just looks at nothing more than Your credit score and your self reported income and a few other things and then in fact it can wind up giving predictably Agra lower credit outlines to women than it does to men now. We do not know that that is going on in this case because Sofa all we have is a bunch of twitter anecdote and it is very important to extrapolate from twitter anecdote but one of the big issues here which you know. The ghost of Kathy is is whispering in my ear is it is very problematic. All we have is twitter anecdote. We should have much more than just with anecdote and Goldman Goldman Sachs and apple should be very transparent about the actual facts of whether or not there's this impacts instead of just waving and saying Oh we got a third party to attest that there's no disparate impact and explain what you're talking about a little bit. No I feel. That's your job emily. Can you please rewind and give us a little bit of what the hell are we talking about here. Sure Blah Blah Blah Blah. That's Ne- rewinding using snowball to rewind. I am using my snowball in concert with audacity and other tech marvels according to from my home today. I'm very impressed. uh-huh so over the weekend David Meyer. Hanson tweeted basically that his wife David Hammer. Hanson is a well known tech founder under developer tweeted that his wife and he both had apple cards issued by Goldman Sachs but that he had twenty times the credit limit that she had even now her credit score is higher day file taxes jointly. They you know communal property and they importantly reported the same annual income so in in terms of the data that Goldman and apple say that they base these underwriting decisions on she should have come out better than him because they had the same income but she she had a higher credit score and so the tweet just went completely viral and among the people chiming in was the was Steve Wozniak. You know the CO founder of apple who said a similar thing actually happened to him and his wife where she had a lower limit than he did and New York state quickly said were will investigate this Elizabeth Warren chimed in calling out Goldman for not because the Goldman has spoken and kind of like did a not real apology kind of thing and set something like we hear you and let us know if this is happening to you but it hasn't said this is exactly what's in the algorithm you know. It's kind of being. It's really hedging on that right being really Dicey Weird I have asked them. I've had conversations with Goldman I have asked them to send me the details of how they determine I'm in whether there's disparate impact. What was determined in this case? I am not asking them to reveal the entire details the algorithm but just the outputs of disparate impact tests west and we will see whether they supply that they suddenly haven't played it yet and you wrote in your newsletter Felix that Charles River Associates. Some oppo signed signed off on the Algorithm before the card was issued and said it wasn't discriminatory but it's not really clear what that even means so number one. It's not clear what that means number two. It's it's not clear that that is exactly what they did. I have asked them. Is this what you did did you. You know test. The Algorithm and determine there was no disparate impact against women. And I've received no reply from that. The only people saying Charles River associates did this is golden. I'm not saying that lying but like I would love to hear from child trevor directly to see if they actually did what Goldman says that they did and they are being super quiet as well. And it's all part of this culture of secrecy. Everyone who works apple knows that it is a super secretive place. Everyone knows who works at Goldman knows that it's a super secretive place and they will do things like try to throw you in jail if they think that you have stolen secrets and clearly Charles River is the super secretive places. Well all the secrecy just doesn't really work well with the desire of people like me and people like David. Hannah Hansen to see what's going on behind the scenes of this algorithm. Yeah I mean I think it's a fair point you know when you're talking about how credit scoring is probably GonNa Change as we move forward and people are increasingly using complex algorithms the more complex they get get the more the people who created them probably don't even fully understand what exactly is going on and also from a legal perspective. I'm guessing that they probably don't really want. I want to know entirely what is going on and so I'm kind of curious. In terms of the auditing of the algorithm that was done like what does that actually do to kind of give them a little bit of cover but not tell them so much later they can be sued. I'd just be curious right and I think one thing we should really highlight here. Is that Apple. This is the apple card after all. It's it's not the Goldman Cartoon Goldman does the back end but apple has all this language marketing language about how this is an apple card not a bank card. They have been silent. They're not not really talking about this very much at all. It's kind of amazing to see them through golden under the bus here because the marketing slogan is designed by Apple Not a bank and then the minute that the question about well let. Can you talk a little bit more about how this is designed because the design looks like it's sexist like. Oh yeah that's the bank is thank. Everybody hates Goldman. I mean someone pointed out. I think it was in the vox piece you linked to in your newsletter Felix but someone pointed out it would be like if there were. Bugs is with the IPHONE. It'd be like apple saying you have to talk to Foxconn about that. Are Factor in China's responsible for that like apple needs to take responsibility for the product that it's marketing and that it's claiming to be its own examined as an adult responsibility for it. I feel like as apple increasingly kind of moves away from their wheelhouse. They're kind kind of trying to expand what they do. I'm guessing that this is going to happen. More and more because they're going into industries that frankly they don't know as well you don't actually want apple to be a bank. I mean no one wants apple to be a bank. The whole there was a huge amount of regulation around bank holding companies and who can own banks and who can be banks and I think the world would would be terrified if any if those tech giants became a bank because financial data and healthy through the two big types of data that people really want ultra secure. Don't just want sort of floating around in on facebook. Although interestingly as this the the past few weeks we've had google coming out talking both about having health data and potentially checking accounts. Yeah Google checking account. Sounds like really weird. I have no idea how that would work wreck but yet they. They say they want to do that. FACEBOOK is getting back into payments. I think the fourth or fifth time You know we'll see whether that works apple. Obviously has this cog which his you know. I mean before this managed to get enormous adoption and have some enormous percentage of all contactless payments. In America. Erica remained on an apple code and so apple is actually becoming an important force in payments. Now and all of this is happening. You know people would be worried about too if it was banks. Because his people don't invest banks and mistrust of banks is something we've talked about a lot on this show but I don't think anyone is any is reassured if it becomes tech giant's right because like tech giants are kind of becoming the new the new bad guys right. So it's not. It's unsurprising that the apple had that slogan we are not a bank but now they can't exactly say we are not the Tech Company right. I just think this whole episode highlights the danger for tech companies already losing or have have lost the trust of a lot of Americans another venturing into into a sector where Americans like absolutely. No one likes their bank. No one likes the credit card. Companies like tech companies are reputations. Are already the suffering and now they're getting into financial services and I don't see how this ends that welfare that I think they're all clearly. I probably a million times but I think they're looking at China and they're seeing. These models does like Alibaba and Ali pay and how how lucrative those are becoming an and it and it makes sense to a certain extent. If you're saying like Oh we already have all these people if we could just connect these buyers and Sellers and we can also expand beyond ads blabbity Blah. All of that like you can see why that makes sense but the problem is that is just simply a lot harder to do in the United States than it is in China. I WanNa talk a little a little bit about like brand value. Apple is hugely admired brand in America and on some level it makes sense. The people would much rather have an apple credit card then goldman-sachs credit card or wells Fargo credit card or something like that because people don't like they do like apple and yet it turns out that the reason people don't like banks is not so much just they have bad brands. But just because these financial services are really nasty. And make you feel we'll baton upset you know. This is a credit card that charges you interest in you know it does slightly better way and actually in a much better way than most other credit cards. You know the the little behavioral defaults in the Apple Cart much better designed from a consumer perspective than the defaults on most credit cards but in the world of with an anecdote he You know I wanted to see for myself. I have a credit card. My wife and I have the same income for the purposes of this credit card. We both you know my my income goes into a joint. Checking account belongs to both of us and I saw I asked my wife. I'm like Hey why don't you apply for Napa. And let's see how your credit limit compares to my credit limit and we'll see whether you know you have the same result as the was had and so Michelle went ahead and applied for the credit card. Nick screen came up saying. Can You upload a photograph of the Front and back of your state. ID which is not a screen that most people get. And I did a little quick unscientific with appellate only seems to be about thirty percents people get that screen. The screen came up and then nothing happened for few hours and then a few hours as late as they said. Oh there's a problem with the already been declined. And then she tried again. It was like a better quality photographs of the ID and then she was declined again. And this is like take a an unpleasant experience which makes her and me feel worse about apple and this is I think the thing that a lot of these tech companies don't understand is is that people feel good about apple. Apple has good grand valley precisely because it's not in financial services and if they move into financial services people will feel worse about them but I guess if they could do a little better job feel a little bit better but I think there's going to be the problem too. It's like it's almost reminds me of like Tesla or they're kind of like let's just get all the humans out and we'll bring robots and everything we you better. It's a disaster and I wonder if similar things are happening here too. If they're just they're using again more complex algorithms maybe automating a bit more and so then. You're getting these results results that they did not anticipate. I will say though one thing to think about is. I don't think credit cards are issued. Two couples based on on like a credit card company looks at a couple where the say one spouse stays home the other one works. I don't think the stay at home. Spouse's income is is counted the same as the workout spouses. So I can jump in here and light having done a bunch of reporting on the second. Explain what's happening here and this does explain why why people are upset about the apple. Cotton the apricot is unique for the time being pretty unique for the time being most of the time. Let's say that my wife and I apply for Amax Code we will make one application between us for the AMEX card and we will get to Qods one in my name one and heck name but it's one account and you only apply once and it kind of doesn't matter which one of you applies whose name the primary account. How does you only make one application? You get one response and so you. You don't realize that if you'd applied individually you might have different results. The apple cart is not set up for multiple caused on a single account. It's only up individuals which means that married couples who generally shed accounts when it comes to credit cards have have to apply separately for the apricot. And that's something which is extremely rare. And because it's so rare you know it just means that this these kinds of disparities in underwriting outcomes become visible in the way that they just not visible elsewhere because this situation almost never turns up in the wild anywhere else. Yeah I think it does sometimes turned up in the wild because I have my spouse stays at home and Like when we apply for credit things like that like we need. Yeah we need to do a jointly like you're saying Felix. Among we have separate cards. They were treated differently. So this claim from Hannah Myer Hansen on others. You know who said that were the same. We have the same income. We share joint income. Whatever it's just that's not the reality of Financial Services and underwriting and that's a like I think a bigger question and that needs to be asked because if if that's not address than there is going to be this dispirit outcome that seem sexist. You know that sort of lighten baked into the system beyond apple and Goldman unaddressed in a in a pretty transparent and open way because again right now what we have to go on his twitter anecdote and and you know I keep on going back to this one guy on twitter who's in the at replies to the H H on twitter and he's like yeah my wife and I both Applied Vajpayee Apricot in. She has a high credit score and the higher income than I have and she's still got a lower credit line right. That's the big question I saw some of those too. And that's what's Apple. Need to answer for this. Yeah Yeah because I mean. Of course there are other questions will be going back and forth by like. Who's actually making all the payments that you know a lot of things go into these credit scores North? But I think you're right at the end of the day but it doesn't matter what goes into the credit score. If the credit score is higher than you should get a high credit line now I agree and and so what we need to do is work out like is this true like you know. It's there's common and all of these questions were not getting care and it's worth noting that in the EU in the GDP are there are some regulations that were just put in place on what they call automated decisions where consumers I have a right to understand what goes into these kinds of decisions made by algorithm. Like I feel like I feel like in the case of Of the apple cut that being very that's saying quite explicitly. Well it's your credit score your credit history and your self reported income on this just like really if that's it like it doesn't explain these outcomes that maybe maybe they will be a little bit more forthcoming given this outcry when historic worked flooding. Hit the small town of Fremont Nebraska. The community grew even stronger as the water levels rose. Local heroes stepped up to help like Walmart. Store manager Kerry Hungerford for four days of flooding. Carry stores stayed open to welcome community members. Inside and distribute lifesaving supplies allies like food water and bedding free of charge since two thousand Seventeen Walmart and the Walmart Foundation have given nearly fifty million dollars in disaster astor relief because every community has a story and a Walmart Visit Walmart dot com slash community for more info. Emily Yeah Tell me about your restaurant habits. Do you generally eat out or do you generally order in well. We used to be an order in kind of family in Brooklyn but now we live kind of in the middle of nowhere so we do a lot of cooking. I'm sad to say or I'm happy to say I think it is healthier definitely healthier the cheaper at definitely over the years I've switched from restaurant to ordering and kind of person I would say yeah Felix. I Know Your Restaurant Person Sheila. I am a restaurant person I you know I think. There's a lot of experiential wonderfulness that one gets from eating Ather restaurant that you dan get from ordering in from a restaurant on the other hand. I don't have kids and I. I totally understand that. That alone changes the calculus enormously. Honestly and I do not judge I will never judge people ordering and what is interesting to me. Is that the ordering an economy which you know. Insert some weird unscientific generalization about millennials. Here is does seem to be growing. That economy has been swarmed warmed by big Silicon Valley Tech. Giant's Luba and door dash in Grub hub and they are taking aching really significant chunks of every check when you order delivery. They don't just take that delivery fee. They actually take a commission on top top of that and restaurants a lot of restaurants that I've talked to feeling kind of unhappy about this because they see those deliveries is on the one hand being like people who might otherwise have come into the restaurant and spent more money especially on things like alcohol and on the other hand. Well make less money. Because they have to give a huge chunk of that check to to the GRUB Hobson ubereats of the world. And it's not the only place that Tak is sort of taking you so you know extracting rents from the restaurant. Industry is happening in a bunch of other areas as well and I was particularly interested in this new company called seated. Where you get like the up to thirty percent of your check back in the form of Amazon rewards basically and it's like wow and now and now Travis County has gotten a bunch of new Saudi the money to make things even worse for the restaurants of the country is that that's why we're talking about this now a cloud kitchens? Yeah although the thing I will say though. Is that part of the reason that that people would probably invest in that part of the reason that this is happening is because people's eating habits are changing and so we can talk about this and yes. This is putting restaurants at a disadvantage vantage but it isn't just tech Bros.. Taking advantage of people. It's that people's habits are changing and I actually was thinking 'cause so Travis County has this company called cloud kitchen which basically gets rid of restaurants entirely and they just have these kind of industrial kitchens where you ordered take out and they send the takeout. no-one sits anywhere and he just got like four hundred million dollars for it from the Saudi the Vision Fund or whatever five billion dollar valuation at a five billion and our which. I loved the idea of what this does to Travis Kalanick's network. He was already like a billionaire. Uber and now he's just added a couple of billion dollars his net worth breath by raising money at a five billion dollar valuation. Like oh great so glad that Travis go even richer it's essentially like what he's talking about is almost like You know when you have the trucks that everybody gets lunch at like you know I think of like back in the past where you know people actually ate their lunch out. They didn't just eat it at their desks. Or the fact that you did have people regularly going out to eat. And as I've said like I feel like regardless of the tech people coming in. I think it's hard to believe that people were just going to continue doing the same things they did. Twenty years ago. I guess the question then I do believe that but is that good. I mean like things change people. Thank no I'm saying why things at home and eat at home. I'm no I mean I. I genuinely believe that. In a world where people are increasingly increasingly valuing you know face to face real world experiences. This should be a boom time for sit down restaurant experiences. That should be growing shrinking. And I don't entirely understand what it is about the present moment that makes that one hundred and eighty degrees fulsome. Why people are eating out at restaurants less and getting food delivered more really wait? People Blur increasingly valuing face to face interactions. At is that true. I feel like people. That's why conference economy is booming. Mass y you know that's why the music industry is is is moving overwhelmingly to live events. But I think you also have revealed preference to a certain extent to right. Is that part part of the reason that a lot of these companies like your whatever have done well is because people have found. Hey It's actually really nice to eat good food at home and put on Netflix. It's easier and if you have kids it's a lot easier super convenient. You don't even have to. I mean the appeal. I always thought of like grub hub or door to ashes. You you pick up your phone you press a few buttons you talk to no one. You don't even have to call you. Don't call the restaurant anymore and go through like that sort of like torture of ordering off the menu Blah Blah Blah. You just press few buttons. Someone shows up at your door hands. You A bag. You don't even have to talk to them. I mean it's all about you know it's all part of this this phone in society we live in where we're we're just texting wants to pick up the phone anymore out of this town's horribly dystopia and yes. Oh very realistic. Guess because if people didn't like doing it wouldn't be successful so my feeling is that you're right about diagnosing is going on even though I'm sad about okay I think this is absolutely correct. But one of the implications of that is the restaurants as an industry are going to wind wind up spending more higher and higher rents on tech services and I feel like the restaurant. Industry was precarious enough to begin with and the if they wind up having to spend a the wind up paying whole bunch of money to door. Dashing reese as well as people like open table as well as people pool like seated as well as people like Yelp awo whoever the services odd getting good reviews on yelp because without a good review on yelp. You'll never make any money. You know all live these kinds of services at up and they all eat into your profit margin and it just makes trying to open a restaurant more and more precarious in a world where Restaurants have historically been one of the foremost ways in which immigrant families especially can into the middle classes. And this just gives me a bit of a sad. Yeah no it's definitely sad and I think they're I mean I'm not happy about this sort of retreat this retreat from the public sphere and the sort of dying of the the rise of takeout his sort of hastening this kind of public retreat. Where we're all like just going back into our apartments and staring at screens while we eat our sad takeout? I think it's really really bad. And I think the They're real benefits to having restaurants in places where you gather and have to sort of interact with each other in. There can be really interesting hosting encounters. I think we saw last year. Or maybe it was this year where you know. People from the trump administration tried to eat at restaurants and they had to encounter the public and it was very uncomfortable for them and that sort of like a very extreme example. But there's a benefit to having to go out into the public sphere in democracy. You know so. In in addition to being bad for immigrants owning a restaurant or working in a restaurant is sort of like a step up into the economy. It's just bad for the citizen. Ray I think thank maybe a little. Even though ordering Grub is nice and convenient there is something democratic about restaurants I mean obviously some very exclusive back The countries with restaurants The country's the didn't used to have so much of an ability. It's like what what you often find if you look back on history. The history of people having food cooked for them very much the history of people being able to employees Sevan's is to make food for them. And then this this massive reve de Democratic Revolution where people don't need to employ full-time Cook to make food for for them. And they can just go out to a restaurant and just pay someone to make food on a you know occasional basis and it really revolutionizes is how people eat and it was wonderful revolution and you know maybe this is the next step of that that you don't need to go anyway to pay to pay someone else to cook for you. You can just press a button on your phone and someone in Travis. Kalanick's cloud kitchen will whip up a tycoon. Guy Or something and delivered to your house. I just I I. I do agree with emily that that is a backward move in terms of civil society. Nah I know I just think it's a lot of it gets misspell Jeffer- The way things were and this idea that change must always be scary and bad baton and yeah right now. I'm not saying there aren't downsides but it also works really well for a lot of people and we'll see what happens in the future. Slate money is sponsored this week by ethos which is the place you go to get life insurance. It's an important thing which we all put. It's awfully don't really like to think about it. Very much. Turns out however that life insurance is not nearly as complex or expensive time consuming as you might think especially Ashley if you use ethos which is the fast and easy and more affordable way to get life insurance. Make sure your family is taking care of ethos will find you. The plan lamb is best for you and that fits your budget. You can do it from your computer or your phone and ten minutes. Maybe less just a few questions you'll tell them about your health your age Agia income and you'll get instant approval. Everyone is different but a healthy thirty five year old can get million dollars of coverage. Fifty dollars is a month. It's affordable so with ethos rest easy knowing the people you love taking care of confusing terms and piles of paperwork not included you sleep money. 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Yeah this little company you might you may have heard of called Disney is now doing streaming coming all Disney's content so all the movies that everybody loves plus all the Star Wars stuff will let let's rewind massive from all of it eventually in many years time it will be all of it but Disney signed multi deals with a whole bunch of online services which they need to to honest so you can't just turn on Disney plus and see all of the star was movies. You can all of the marvel movies all of the Pixar movies. You do get a bunch of their back catalog. And you do get Simpson's for seven dollars a month which is cheaper than net flicks or free if you manage to have the right kind of rising rising account or stuff like that. I mean we just had the launch of Apple. TV plus as well and a lot of these things in trying to make a dent dint against the two big giants in the space which Amazon prime and Netflix Basically signing up people for massive free retrial year long free trials that kind of thing in an attempt to hook people. I can tell you I I got my free trial to apple. TV plus. I watched about ten minutes of in the morning show and I gave up. It was atrocious. So I'm not quite sure how much better I feel like. I have a little bit more. Faith that Disney is going to do this well then apple. Yeah Disney's been in the content business for a while so Disney had an enormous number of sign up so it was like seventy million or something crees seven million ten million ten million anyway millions of sign ups and people really want to watch the mandate Laurean. I think which is some story thing and And there was of course the inevitable tech glitch and everyone got blue screen of death and couldn't sign up and that kind of thing because Disney had only spent three three billion dollars buying a stream company Bam tech to make sure it was all seamless and could scale without any problems but like I think the general consensus is that Eh they will figure out the tech problems that the IP is incredibly compelling the they have all of these franchises the people are going to want to watch and that really Disney plus could well be powerful enough to to be a compelling alternative or at least addition to because it has an Amazon and especially because it has such good content for kids. Not that Netflix does it. But obviously doesn't he's going to be better and I do think though this kind of idea of like the streaming wars that you kind of hear hear about a question that a little bit because I do think that will probably get to a point where people aren't gonNA own one streaming service people radio into trey especially if they have Amazon prime. I didn't think of as a streaming service. The interesting thing about Disney pluses that Disney is bundling it with Hulu. ESPN in like a big bundle for this. I like fifteen dollars. There's something of that and that's a pretty compelling getting because the one thing which you've never really been able to get on. Ott Up until now. How has been sports sports? And so now you get. USPS boom snuggle everything. Yeah otherwise you have to go through your parents dish network. I'm not saying I did that last weekend. But I think one thing this shows is that there is no there's no one streaming service that has at all like as more and more people unplug from cable. Nothing is actually actually replacing cable. It's were all using this kind of like mishmash of different streaming services at some point. It's just going to be the sort of UH polarized kind of choose your own adventure landscape and if you know I mean now that they've bought fogs Fox now that you have this bundle of Disney plus Hulu an ESPN. That really does come as close as I think. Anyone's GonNa get to a one-size-fits-all Etzel all you can eat kind of bundle. Yeah you miss out on that Netflix show or that. Hbo Show or the Amazon Prime Show. But in terms of being able to just turn on your television and watch something which you will enjoy watching it will serve that purpose agree. I mean I think because net flicks almost is increasingly becoming A channel as it creates more and more of its own content and is less reliant on the content of others so it's like you go to net flicks for specific shows in the same way that you'd go to. Hbo For specific shows shows whereas it does seem like as you were describing this kind of bundle. That's a little bit more like cable. You know I I do think you could get to a point where people are spending as much As if not more than they were previously spending on cable. However that's clarity? Hud cable bills were enormous. And you know I I feel like no one's going. You don't need more than I feel like if you have that Disney Bundle of Disney plus Hulu and ESPN. That's fifteen dollars and you have net flicks for another fifteen dollars dollars and you have prime anyway. The marginal cost of framing zero. And maybe showtime maybe age but even that's thirty bucks which is way lower than the cable. Bill Hi speed Internet access right right but often you're paying high speed in- Internet access anyway when you cable TV. But I also think is interesting we know about this model. That is obviously a little different than cable is that you can often kind of start and stop a lot right because I mean I know that Netflix. It's like if I want. What one thing on Netflix? I'll do it and then if I don't watch. TV for six months. I won't pay for Netflix crew. Six month started up again which I thought it'd be an increasing strategy like Succession fans sign up for HBO. Max which is coming out soon soon. I mean there are a couple of services still to come out. Hbo Max and Peacock which is like NBC's GonNa be embassies free streaming service and they. They took back friends the office from from net flicks which was like very big draws for net flex and one point I think is interesting to contemplate would be the effect of Net neutrality kind of really goes away. The streaming services that are tied up with Internet providers may wind up with some kind of sinister advantage. Here you know like HBO is now owned by. At and T.. Right right exactly and the other one. I'm thinking avid peacock service through comcast comcast. So there may be you know down the line. Those kinds of services might be much cheaper because They own the pipes and or they can monetize the pipes in some other way. Or if if you're getting. At and T.. Cell Service and you. Hbo Max Thanks for free. And then they managed to target ads. That you Betta I do think that the evolution of ads on these services is going to be super interesting one like we've had this kind of golden era where net flicks Amazon an HBO evolving basically Ad Free and people have become accustomed into that. And I think it's one of the reasons that WHO doesn't have the same salience in in the culture. Is that people like Oh you do. I need to watch ads. It technically. There's a version of who you can buy which doesn't have ads. But they don't really push it very hard. They want to have that outlet. They want to have inventory advertisers. They want to be able to make money from advertisers. I think peacock is the same way. But it'd be super interesting to see whether people are willing to pay money for an online service. A stat also includes ads beyond the I'd know how many subscribers who do already have since quit. I think I mean I will be interesting to see what happens with Netflix. Especially if the economy turns a little bit just because Netflix unlike the others is pure play right just pure play streaming and it. It doesn't have the back catalogue that a lot of these other guys have and it has so much debt it has all these content liabilities. It's already paying a fairly Lee high rate on its debt in so I will be interested to see I think that they even though right now the appear obviously the leader beyond anyone else. I'll be really interested to see what happens happens in more significant downturn and the the one other thing I wanted to say was how I see this fitting in with the restaurant conversation. We just had they are connected so back in the day before there was cable and everyone watched the same like three or four four channels. We had a public discourse that was far less polarized. And that's not a coincidence. There Been Studies in research that backs US up. Basically basically we had sort of a shared understanding the truth because we all connected on the same media we all watch the same news. We all saw the same movies. Basically but then cable came along and kind of blew that up and now we see what happens when you have like a Fox. News in an MBA amendments NBC. News and people getting different versions of the truth in our public discourse. This course. Has You know along with that become much more polarized and now with the rise of streaming that polarization and I think that disconnect from you know Civic Society essentially is GonNa is becoming much worse will get much worse. We'll sort of deepen World we live in where no one has the same kind of no one has a shared reality or shared cultures the advil Disney plus shed reality like Disney awash phrasing. It crosses all political divides it brings everyone together with the possible. Exception of like the handmaid's maid's Tale on Hulu which is definitely a blue state thing. But no I mean I you know. Sports is largely universal star. Wars is universal de avenge changes at universal frozen to is going to be universal. Disney's done a good job of being in a vassal. I I like that idea. I do just want to Anna. One thing thing though when she's talking about this coming downturn and how Netflix will fair. Do you mean an economic downturn. I mean I feel like on. Some level net net flicks is a little bit lake. Cheap beer it's like one of those things which connects the out performance in the economic downturn. That people at retreat into their homes and just do and just do Do Net flicks into going out to the movies or that is actually excellent question. Because I I would argue. It's less of just like a kind intercession thing you know as I was just it is if you could think of is like lipstick. It's this it's this small little treat. That doesn't actually cost that much. You'll actually have more of an indentured. I'm more talking if you actually went into like a financial downturn where the access to capital was a little bit harder and a little bit more expensive company that's so debt-dependent that's where I think they could to get into a little bit of trouble. Slate money is supported by Oh affects global money. Transfer specialists helping the world move money like Oh affects. Client my Bella Vita travel. WHO started a tour company in southern Italy where many businesses didn't accept credit cards? They need a way to move funds from a North American Bank account to local merchants without spending too much on fees and exchange rates. My Bella Vita travel contacted O. F. X. currency specialist helped them to set up an account secure great exchange rates and make custom money transfers. Now they can focus on showing their clients Italy's old world charm. Oh FX believes that currency shouldn't limit aspirations that's why they combined simple and secure digital experience with twenty four seven and human support more at O.. X. Dot com lumber. Okay Okay Okay Anna go because I know you're worried that someone else will have your number. So what is your number twenty two. I do not have emily's do you have to do not okay. You can breathe a sigh of relief. No one else has twenty two. What is twenty two? That is the weight of Victor. The cat is bits. The Russian loving to the Russian. He's he's a little bit Chubby. Yes he's he's big boned. He's twenty kilos exactly. Yeah so there's this guy who was trying to take his cat on board this Aeroflot flight and they were like you can just do so. He was like what I will do. Is I will put. I will delay this flight and I will find someone in Moscow who has a smaller cats and so he did and so who've been he checked into the new flight with this smaller Cat Sophie. I believe the name of the cat. And then once he was checked in he swapped out for Victor The cat got on his flight and then he posted a facebook facebook post where he was kind of bragging about this with some delightfully cute photos victims looking out the window he he was on his lap. And then the the mean people Aeroflot wound up seeing the facebook post and said you cheated. And they've stripped him of his mile. They did apparently a lot of miles. It's the victory to fly. Is he going on a diet now. That's a good question question. I think I think there was some talk about Vicky going on a diet so that he can get back onto a plane. You know legitimately but it's an awesome story. Yeah my my number since. Anna didn't do it. I'm going to have to mention this. My number is one point. Two five billion dollars. which is the amount of money that we work contrived to lose in the third quarter alone which is kind of amazing that you could lose one point two five billion dollars in th in one quarter especially given that you didn't even I've often the quarter after you? IPO isn't expensive. 'cause there's a lot of weird stock accounting which it happens but this is the quarter. Okay we work with meant to go public. And they spent probably but it's not like a billion dollars and they have never lost so much money in one Gordon not even close so they have their work cut out they do. Maybe John Gear can fix it all. Oh yeah that's the idea. We'll just get the guy from the phone company to comment we were. I loved the idea of John. Jay Coming in to to take over we work. I'M GONNA put the probability. Let's see this happening at about four percent. I just happened only needs. Seems to know so many people yeah so Marcello Claw. Who's the chairman I am an of we work used to run sprint when winless fighting with T. mobile and sprint of course is owned by Softbank and now t mobile is buying sprint? And the whole thing is so incestuous emily what's number. I'M GONNA go with forty five. I like that number okay. Forty five is the number knbr consumer CEOS that have left under pressure in twenty nineteen alone which is array like double what it was two years ago because the whole consumer sector is the being broiled right now by the Internet and other stuff so like that's the issue of the gap has gone. McDonald's Tupperware Bunch people sort of interesting statistic about how consumer retail is doing a CEO of Tupperware. Lift your Tupperware who even thinks about tupperware. Not probably what I male I live I live in the household. I have to admit with with a surprisingly high tupperware usage tupperware ranch. It's just like receivable containers of some brand by Tupperware brand but I can tell you that it never occurred to me that you know tupperware had a CEO who might be forced out. Because that's something something Internet was because you were buying the Tupperware Amazon tupperware. CEO A has left actually. But we were talking about tupperware parties recently at work again. I don't that's why they had. They had the craziest sales force situation situation. Here's the headline signs after stock-fall seventy-three percent that'll do. Yeah well you really all you need. If you're the Sierra Company whose full seventy fan and I think that's it for us this week. You're slate plus listeners. In which case you will be treated to annex a man Skis Bolivian stylings. 'cause yeah we wanted to talk about Bolivia but will do that on slate. Plus otherwise many thanks to just mean molly for producing a mini. Thanks for listening. Do keep emails coming on slate. MONEY AT SLATE DOT COM and we will talk to you next week on sleep money. This episode is brought to you by discover. Get Your Free Credit Score Card today. Even if you're not a discover customer it include your Fico Credit score and checking. Your scorecard won't hurt your credit. Learn more at discover dot com slash credit scorecard limitations apply.
Bonus: Alicia Menendez: MSNBC Anchor, Author The Likeability Trap
"Are you hiring with indeed. You can post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions then. Zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started today. Hey at indeed dot com slash snow limits. That's indeed dot com slash. No limits what we expect of women is that will be kind and communal and what we expect of of leaders is that will be assertive. And Ask for what we want to need. So our vision of women and our vision of leadership are diametrically riposte. And so if you're a woman who is assertive you'll be called aggressive. You'll be asked to tone it down if you're a woman who's warm nice communal. You'll be told you don't have what it takes. So we're basically telling women is that there is no way to lead as you are. Hi everyone welcome to no limits. I'm your her host Rebecca Jarvis if you are a frequent listener here thank you. We really appreciate your loyalty. Thanks for coming back and if your new welcome I I hope you like what you hear so each week we work here to demystify success so it complicated word but the bottom line here or is that we talk to the world's most influential women across all different industries and the conversations are meant to go beyond the resume they are not about the talking points points. We have diversions and we look at decision making the trade-offs a pivotal moments that shaped careers. So whether you're looking for advice were you just want to hear a good story. You're in the right place. Okay everyone you're in for a treat today because I'm here with a dear. A friend of Mine Alicia Menendez. She is an Acre at MSNBC. She is an author of the book. The likability trap which is brilliant She's a mother. She wrote this book. I hope you don't mind my saying. She wrote this book throughout her pregnancy and now has two babies at home and she's just an all around great human being a very likable human being again. Welcome to no limits. Elise thank you so much. The the book was easier to birth than the second shot. Was it really no. That's I mean it's not true. Books are hard. Books are really really hard and quite the commitment. Yeah well I'm So my mom. I grew up with my mom's and journalist and I watched her right one of the books that she wrote and and it was totally insane seeing the amount of time and energy that she had to put into that I think I thought oh I write one thousand word pieces all all the time. I'll just write sixty to eighty of those and be done but actually carrying a thought and a through line through that length of book is and seeing something that hasn't been said. How did you come to the likability trap? What was it I am a person who cares a lot about being liked which is a truth that I had to confront in front. I'm sensitive the kid I like people pleasing. I like excelling at things that I do and a few years ago I started to realize that that as much as the benefit of that was also costing me something and because of our line of work which is in front of the camera we we get so much feedback about our looks about the way we talk about the way we use our hands and I was sort of making the mistake of processing at all as fundamental title. Truth that it's like someone would say something. Okay I can fix that and I was getting so turned around that I had to sort of stop and say what am I. Losing in the service service of trying to be an accommodating and likable person. It's obviously more than just people in our industry. You're writing about this. From the vantage point of women women in the workplace attempting to grow and build their careers and the balancing. Act that women do on the one hand if you're too likeable or if you are likable that gets you so far. But then there's the downside of being likeable and then on the flip side if you're not or people say that you're not likable. Will this idea of progress and being able to build a track record for yourself is really tough right. I mean what we expect of women is that will be kind signed communal and what we expect of leaders is that will be assertive and ask for what we want to need. So our vision of women and our vision vision of leadership are diametrically opposed. And so if you're a woman who is assertive you'll be called aggressive. You'll be asked to tone it down if you're a woman who's warm nice communal. You'll be told you don't have what it takes. So we're basically telling women is that there is no way to lead as you are. which are you at Lucia? I'm both breath and I think that's part of what makes this all so confused. I've received Boho say that both sets feedback. which is I've been told you? You really need to step up and step into that role. And then I've also had probably more times where I have identified problems and solutions and then identifying the problem become the problem And that because I am driven and I do want things done and I want things done in a timely manner that that can often rub people the wrong way. I think just the truth of my ambition. I think we're just so on accustomed to ambitious women who know what they want that in and of itself solicits response the fact that I have received achieved both sets of feedback. The fact that you have received both sets of feedback tells you how context specific that feedback is right. It's not just your fundamentally this a person. It's you're this person at this office. You may be in a different office where they'd be like you have to go harder because it's all about the culture. Whatever the prevailing culture is where you find yourself? Okay I WANNA to come back to the book in a minute but let's talk a little bit about you and your story so you grew up in New Jersey. Yes in a political house. It's very political house. My Dad growing up was the Mayor of Union City New Jersey which is where I grew up He would go on to run for Congress in the ninety s he's now in the US Senate it and we didn't think of it as politics. We thought of it as public service which I think is one of those funny things about the way we frame political service. which is we really believe that he was working on behalf of our community? Make things better and I think part of that is the start in local politics where local politics minutes. It's you're sitting at a pizzeria and someone comes up soon as like. Hey like I have an issue with my garbage can. And it's like you are supposed to address that in that moment because you're there to work in the service of people and nothing makes clear the local politics. Did you WANNA go into politics seeing it I did. I thought that there was just an a continued to believe. There's just no a better way to serve and to help people To use your voice on behalf of others. I don't know that it's the only way to serve right. I think because I I grew up my mom's a public schoolteacher. My my dad has you said had run for office and so I only understood that and it took me a long time to realize that there are other ways to uplift people's voices there other ways to impact people's lives that realization took me a lot longer than should've taken me. Oh No I don't know about that I I it's like it's it's hard to see these things when you're a kid and you said the person who is known what she has wanted to do since she was a child. Rebecca dot true. Actually when when I was a child I used to tell people I wanted to be the president that I changed my mind about that somewhere along the way did you tell people you wanted to be the president. Yes I I love it but I also think that is what is that as saying as I am a girl who wants to be in charge. Yes that is and you just have to assert that so loudly and so clearly that the easiest way to do that is to tell people your parents were totally on board corral. Okay see that helps when you have when you have parents tell you. We'll of course the president of the country. If you WANNA be politics growing up in politics I did not grow up in politics but my parents were on local boards and things like that and when when I was thinking about our conversation and the conversations that we've had over the years I I remember my sister and I were sitting at a board meeting and Some a woman came out of the board meeting and said that Jim Jarvis is such an and I were sitting there and we were like what would you say about Art Dad but good. It's kind of weird because on a very small scale you look up to your parents when you're a kid and I think it has to be today actually I would imagine it would be so much harder for a little kid to be going through a social media and just like constantly hearing about it because you might have been toting along to a parade or things like that but I bet your childhood felt pretty quote unquote normal. Yeah I mean the funny thing is it was almost most infocus focus when he was the mayor of our town. Because those are the people you go to school with those are the people who you see at the local diner I mean that is very much your little world. Where in some ways? Once he went to Congress it was less relevant to are the people who are immediately around. I've of less strong feelings. Maybe when someone's in that level as opposed to the town may right because you don't necessarily have the same perception that you know them and something something I think about a lot now as journalists is what it means to know someone right that it's we spend a lot of time observing other people reading thing about other people were given the incredible responsibility of telling other people's stories. People trust us with their stories. But how do you really know someone right. What is the difference between the way that with intimacy you know someone and someone who you may interact with a few times? You may be at that board meeting with you may see them on television division. You may read their twitter feed. Is that really knowing someone or is that gleaning piece of who they are. What do you think I think it's the latter I mean I think having grown up with someone who I know? Well you know you go on car trips with. Were you torment them by telling them ten minutes. Then you've got to have a bath or you know all of those things you do as a kid Is that the public perception. For example of my father. Is that this very sort of tough and unyielding in person and he is definitely committed to his ideals but at the same time like. He's a softy and that part that complicates the public narrative have and we don't necessarily always have the time to deal with those complications with that nuance and so people sort of become a very packaged version of themselves. I mean I think you see this all the time with candidates whereas we'll say oh I wish they'd just be authentic an entirely. Sure what that really means. You want them to be sloppy copy. You want you want them to to be complicated on the margins. Are you really ready for them. To be a complicated full purse. In some ways I feel were much closer to that right now and I would love to go back to the old days of Canned speeches on the lawn of the White House. I I was your age. Politicians were on talking points. But I actually I remember as a kid I would watch various politicians and wish they would break. I wish that they would break from character and do a cartwheel or something like that just to shock US shocking thing need any shock doc from my politicians any longer but we're along the way did you say okay. Maybe it's not politics. I'm going to pursue this thing called journalism. It's post hosts callers who I had I. I graduated from college in a five high blood. I went to Harvard. I'm already less likable. Thank you Rebecca. So if a guy says he went to Harvard does that make him. More likeable in a woman makes her less likable. I don't know I think the thing that makes you most unlikable if you say you went to school in Boston right like if you talk around Over the river. Yes through the woods I I thought I was GONNA become an attorney run for office. It took took the Al-Saad had all my letters recommendation. Sorry to everybody who wrote those and I worked on stop for one second did that. Because has the fact that that you're even saying that was that a calculation at the time of maybe. I shouldn't adjust the life or live the life that I want because some people took a few hours to me a recommend see I that is so valid. Today that's such a key thing when people think about what do you care about in life Dave. I I appreciate that you cared about the time that those people talk but at the same time this is the rest of your leg cracked big now. I just have a career that I am not that excited about because you know. My Women's studies professor wrote May Not Glowing recommendation. I will say I think at the time you got something like five years. We all sat score would expire fire and their did sort of feel like there was this drumbeat of every year. I get closer to that expiration. I really better be clear that this is what I wanNA. Yeah I do because I'm never taking that test gun shy. So after college worked on a campaign and for the first time was much more aware of of the media and the role that the media played in our political discourse allison was like. Oh they're doing something interesting and they have powered in some ways. They're setting thing the agenda by deciding what it is that they talk about how they frame the race. Yeah and there was a part of me that was like why have I never entertained. been part of that and so I think my next job was I. I found like this job listing on craigslist to be be a booker. which is the person who books guests on a television show at a network called? RN TV it was in Westchester. I got the job Bob. I was reverse commuting from New York City to Westchester. And in doing that I learned all of the mechanics of television right. I learned what makes makes a great guests. I learned S. O.. T. Sound on tape I learned. Mos Man on the street and it wasn't that anybody who is sitting down and telling me that if you are a person who wants to learn and you're sitting in an environment where all of those words and language are swirling around you. I asked a lot of questions and I. I basically walked away knowing a lot more about producing television vision than I would if I tried to study it. That's so smart. And how long were you in that role. Think about a year and then I started dabbling again in In nonprofit worked I worked at rock the vote I worked at a an organization that did Hispanic voter registration including Grassy USA and all that was good and helpful right him in all of that was about community empowerment. And how you engage. People who have traditionally been left out of our electoral process and in many ways. I think that's a thread throughout the work. which is how do you reach the people that aren't being reached right whether that is with a story with with civic engagement? It's a huge challenge. Yeah in every way I love your Latina to Latina podcast. Odd cast thank you for all But I wonder in that realm reaching those who have not traditionally you been reached or thought of even contemplated in the conversation. Have you found when it comes to challenging a structure. That doesn't even necessarily think think of reaching those people. Have you found an effective way because I think that's a probably something that's common to everyone listening. In some way have you found rounding effective way to make the case that reaching that individual is important and then also bridging that divide between a culture that has has not thought about Ban Hurson or that identity and then suddenly saying there's value but both sides need to see it. Think the demographics the graphics of this country make very clear in a boardroom or in a powerpoint presentation why you need to go after that demographic I think the bigger challenges oranges I have run into are getting the resources that are truly necessary. which is where I mean? I think it's very easy to verbal commitment. It's much harder to get a financial commitment And then really putting people in charge who understand the communities that you're trying to reach and empowering wearing them to make decisions as opposed to giving someone a title but fundamentally being like but this is how we're going to do it right on the book on the likability trap I constantly in these conversations in my own mind come back to the same sort of end game. which is you got to control things? If it if you want change you have to start it. You have to build it. You have to amass the wealth because while there are a number of I would say well intentioned people and there are pockets where you can do the things you want to do. Unless you're the one who's sort of controlling it I don't know maybe I'm too cynical. I don't see the world changing right because then you're at someone's wins and part of what you you also need is a long term commitment because reaching a new audience reaching a new development that takes time and it takes time to get Asia Song Long. Yeah it looks like you have to get it wrong before you get it right And we very often don't give people the type of opportunity to experiment and fail fail and see that failure as a lesson learned that then can be reapplied in the second round while we tried. We tried we did. It's like no no. No you mean you have to try several times to get it right. Yup and sometimes it's the luxury of working inside of them large corporation because sometimes sometimes large corporations you you can sort of do those iterations and tell something. Works sometimes large corporations are Never GonNa let you try it But then on the flip side. If you're out I'm trying to do it on your own and you get the start up capital to do it on your own fails on time one. Then you're sort of back to square one you're not getting more money. Potentially there's all different outcomes. Okay so you do the smart thing where you get to see behind the scenes and then you go to the Huffington post or or between after the non career trajectory that I could not write my own resume or wikipedia page through through. Okay really great. People are writing your wake up right now. I'm sure of it. Everything on their is a dragon. Please get in there because there are some questionable punctuation marks doc. I this is important. which is I through? All of my work doing Nonprofit work had started appearing on television the Vision as a representative of those organizations that have talk about the youth. Vote or talk about the Latino vote. So is doing that on. MSNBC DOING THAT ON CNN and through that all of a sudden people started to take note and invite me in to have conversations about what it was interested in doing what that might look like Nick and you can imagine the realm of feedback that I got from that But it was sort of like nobody knew what to to do with me and there was this woman named Joe Zan Lopez who at the time was at CNN and was always very enthusiastic and very affirmative with me and when she laughed and went to Huffpost live and became the head of talent at huffpost live. She immediately called me in for an audition. And you said this isn't going to be like television. I mean it's it's literally not it is a the digital streaming network We're going to be bringing in gas via skype via a google hangout. And we wanted to feel like a conversation. I went in. I auditioned. I nailed that audition and she called me almost immediately to offer job as one of the inaugural hosts of that and part of the lesson for me there is that was the right opportunity for me at the right time. And what's very hard as you and I have chosen to work in something that is not a meritocracy and I had been trying for so long to force my moment what I realize now is that opportunity had to open up. The opportunity was looking for someone. Just like me. Someone who didn't have all of the background in traditional media someone who was more comfortable in a conversational format format and someone who was young enough and did not have the professional record that was willing to take a risk because it was a huge risk. It was this thing that was wildly ahead of its time and where we would need to be experimental and iterative and it. It was perfect because what I got out of that was at bats right. I got to sit there and read five thousand prompters. I got to interview hundreds of guests We had breaking news happen and I got to handle break news. If I had been inside of more traditional structure the most junior person does not get got to do big name interviews. They don't get to handle breaking news and so by taking the risk there was this big reward. which is I got to try my hand at things that I would never been able to do somewhere else? That is extremely wise. I love that you look back on it like that. I also know that it was frustrating. Let's let's also of course the the more of an upstart something is at this moment. In media generally the less exposure there is and so you're always choosing between an established path breath where there will be opportunities but they may not be immediate and there's a lot more structure on what that's going to look like or these things that are experiments and bigger risk and you got to do a lot of things but people may not be watching and so that is always the trade off. How do you think through the trade off? Now we'll be right back with Lisa Menendez after a word from our sponsor it's finally here you can download download the Disney plus APP right now and start streaming the best of Disney Pixar Marvel Star Wars and National Geographic ad free. And wherever whenever you want them for more good at Disney plus dot com. Okay so in the New York Times calls you one of the eighth news. podcasts worth listening to well you to say thank you so go on start smart we start here the ABC News daily podcast. Take us with you. Listen to was now free on apple podcasts. How do you think through the trade-off now I look back in? I'm really grateful. I'm grateful to Huff Post live because it gave me a bunch of chances is to flex all of my muscles and learn an entirely new set of skills. After I left huffpost live I went to fusion which was the. ABC univision cable. The station and we went through different iterations of my show and we tried news. We tried commentary. At some point there was a mandate to do satire and comedy lesson learned. They're very humbling. Even if you are a funny person like you are the person who friends like. That's my funny friend. It is hard to be a funny person on television and so being able to try my hand at all those things as someone who wanted to do so many things was great because I feel like I got a lot out of my system and refined refined it down to what it actually is that I liked to do that. I want to do And so now the the question is how you you find and build an audience understanding that. That's not all going to happen on a single platform or a single medium right like I used to just think I'll just be on television Asian. Nobody gets to just be on television anymore. Right you have to be operating across social media you have to have a podcast you have to have different ways in which you get to be yourself in different capacities acities. How do you think about than that idea of brand in this whole context both of us? BARF ING brand I I feel really conflicted about it and I don't have a good answer to it because to me. A lot of the people who I see who refer to themselves does as brands at all feels so performed and formulaic at the same time being ourselves all the time feels like an impossible possible mandate Bake ourselves for consumption ourselves for consumption in that in that structure. What you just said is a ridiculous Akilah idea? I mean it and there are people who seem to to execute it I think crecy Teagan for example is the type of person person who seems to basically be living her life there is exposure in sharing. I'm sure there are things we are not exposed to we don't share and she is mindful of those things as well but thought she is more or less being consumed as she is. Yeah I think it's it. It requires a very special type of person to be able uh-huh to do that And be fully aligned fully integrated. I think it's a lot more challenging. If part of your brand or let's take the word brand out of it. Part of your interests are serious if you and and even to this idea of like ability and managing pitching a career I remember when I started in my career in investment banking. And my mom's advice to me was don't talk about your personal personal life when you're at work because people won't think you're a serious person and that I actually think today it has some challenges but maybe fewer that's absolutely I mean I don't know about investment banking per se but I do think there has been this cultural shift towards bring your whole self to work right right. You were having struggles at home if someone in your family sick. If they're whatever there is just bring it and be who you are. I think there's a real challenge with that mandate which is that if you're operating within an organization there's normally in organizational culture and that culture has its own sense of how you are supposed to be and how much of yourself self really is allowed to come. Something I write about in the likability trap is the fact that more and more companies are saying. Bring your whole self to work but not all of them are really prepared to embrace you as you are. And that's particularly true for racial and ethnic minorities when they're working in a culture an office where there are marginalized member of the office community. You know it sounds Nice but it it can be more complicated than willing. You can even find yourself in a company company culture. That may if I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here might even stand for that but if your personal manager is not interested right it's going to be a major challenge right. I don't want to gloss over about back to your brandon. Question is grappling with being a private person in this age and which it does feel as though people are constantly rewarded for the extent to which they're willing to share themselves. I'm of the belief that author will at some point. Be a back. Swing your against that. that it will become so the peo- people will be so overexposed and there will be so much sharing the big enough with the sharing Sharing away and then there will be some interest in st ground people who have not shared their entire lives. But you know you and I have talked about this context becoming moms and having children witches I realize now I did not do enough thinking around. How much of her life I was willing to share and and enough thinking around the fact that she simply cannot have agency in that choice right now right I mean my my oldest daughter is three and my youngest is two months and the three reminds sort of in a lake? Take a picture of me. Well of course she's three. She doesn't understand instagram. She doesn't understand my sharing that with ten thousand strangers that she doesn't know no and it I've had to step back and think of the fact that yes she brings me joy and yes. I want to share that but it has long-term consequences too. I know I am we struggle. This is a conversation I have on a regular basis in it I to me. It's a struggle because first of all you don't want your child to ever be. I used that is like first and foremost then. Of course there's the security and all of that but at the same time choose your life right right. She's the most most important thing so I think it's a conversation that will continue to have and think about what's the right thing I love. Your job is because you said she's the most important thing which is like the the sweetest most intimate they said and then I watched back. I need to pivot away from. I am not prepared to deal with the emotional. I'm yeah okay. I'm really strong so okay. Let's come back to the book on that idea about strength. What do you think the end game is here as it relates to likability? Yeah I mean I think the end game is that we all know about these traps. We all know the hot warm thing. We all know. Oh you're sacrificing authenticity in the interest of performing this likable person. We all know about the success penalty. I feel as though most of the council we've been given around how to address. It goes into directions. One is for shorthand Leinen. Right do some sort of gender correcting performance gender judo. Although I've appreciated a lot of that because it does allow someone like me to survive in real time and there's that reality the other option. Is this sort of Lego like I've got more instagram posts. Saved if you went to my saved files it's photos of food the number to make and then things that are like you do you and you don't care what they think about it. Our Lake the best part of letting you know all of Said of the time where you evil to actually do that. Never oh I thought you know. I've never made anything I've saved on. I I I sometimes am I think you and I are built exactly the the same as when I when something is important I want to get it done. Which is why I have tried to shift attention away from likeability and towards things like clarity and my being clear with people about why something is important? My clear with them about the ultimate outcome and being self aware. I mean there is is there is a value in understanding how the way that you are impacts other people how that impacts a team how that impacts the end product as long as you can draw a line in between those two things but my big goal here is to offer a third way. which is we have to start pushing back on this concept of likeability lady and using our collective energy to do that? I think it's something that fundamentally happens at. An institutional or organizational level. What's funny to me? Is that when I share this idea with a room of women. Their heads will Nadia so enthusiastically and then inevitably the first question is like okay but I got this feedback at at work and I would like to know how I can change to accommodate their needs. And it's like Whoa. WHOA WHOA are we all just talked and I but I also I get it? Because it's it's nice for me to suggest this sort of radical cultural change but you gotta go into the office tomorrow and deal with Nancy like those are very different things and so if you're a woman. If if you aren't actually tough on Nancy Nancy what does she do wrong. there are some specific things that you can do to push back so one of the favorite things that I heard. It was from an executive coach. WHO said if you're in a feedback session? Someone tells you what that you're too assertive or you're not assertive enough. US compared to whom and the gives the person a moment to say what. I say this to somebody else in the office. Is there some bias behind this and the the second piece which I think is even more helpful as can you draw a line for me from the way that I act to how it impacts. The results are the outcome of the work. I imagine there are times where you can rely where you can say Rebecca. I know you really pride yourself on being deliberate but sometimes that comes across as indecision we we promise the deck to the client a week ago. It's still not in. We're on the brink of losing the account. I need you to act more quickly. Okay like that's an actual fair Substantive piece of advice just saying to. You really indecisive what do you do with that And as much as we can say these things in the service of ourselves I also so think it's really important that we say in the service of other people so that if you were in a contacts were someone says to you or Taylor is just so difficult that you say people tell. Tell me this constantly pushing back on them constantly as compared to whom I mean and and also how people reframe you know something. I thought really really surprised me was even the word helpful which we use all the time and which I genuinely mean as a complement can reduce a woman to being in the role of a helper. So instead of saying she's super helpful say she delivered all of the numbers for our q filing be very specific about what her contribution. You should was to the team because that will help. People understand her value better than helpful. Which means you could say? Oh and Sharon got the coffee. Everyone that was really helpful. So those little things I think. Add Up and force people to be more specific more precise about what it means. We say okay. We do and don't like people that's not just helpful. That's that's really smart Alesia. you are brilliant like that. You know that the my favorite the best thing. You could tell me that I'm smart and likable. You've used both them super appreciate it. They look I'm begging for it. What is the worst advice you've received along the way I've received so much bad advice and as a fan of no limits? I knew you would ask that question. And so I've really been thinking about. You know what I realize is. It's less any single piece of advice. I've been offered in more my own misunderstanding at the beginning of my career that I needed needed to take every piece of advice so when I started in television I was with one executive and she was like you know. Your hair's too long. It's what he looked like a child. You need to cut your hair. So I wi- Yup. I walked out of that meeting a cut my hair I got myself a very poorly fitted blazer and then the next meeting eating that I walked into same network. Different executive person's Quidditch to your hair. Oh my God I said well I cut it because the person I met with on Tuesday told me to cut it just like why. Why and I didn't learn it? In that moment it would take many times bad haircut haircut later that I that I would come to understand that there you can say thank you and take it into consideration. You don't need to internalize every single piece of advice. The of it's not Gospel. I think that's where along the way us. I think I realized and I think this is a turning point for me at my career career. You start to realize people throw advice out and they're not even thinking about it that much they might just be putting it out there because it's something to say right. Yup Yup I also think very often there are things that happen in the workplace a group someone can be in the wrong role. Yeah and that is such a hard thing to contend with because the person may be a great skilled person. But they're in the wrong job but you WANNA maintain headcounts to keep them in the role. And that's I think oftentimes the moments that people get the most of that feedback because you can't actually solve the problem. You can't align their skill set that with a role so instead you what if you spoke up morning meeting. What if you used your hands last like all of a sudden becomes around all of these auxiliary things instead of the core issue because he can't fix the core issue tell you my best piece of it? Yes two things. I've been thinking about a lot lately. One is an shoukat who you know of course says a book the big big life and I believe in there she writes a big life is a messy life. And I've been thinking about that so much because you know. I just moved here with my two little kids at emergency dental work last week. I didn't get to go on the airplane on the flight. I was supposed to come on to move because I ended up in the Er with an eye issue shoe. My God like my body was clearly freaking out. You had a kid to go and it's all messy right what it looks like and what it is is new new baby new book new television show raw and all of that is true. I have these babies that I love in this husband than in love but it's sloppy all the time right like there is just so much running out of the House and screaming over the shoulder like there's breast milk in the fridge. How much you know? It's it's a lot of that and just and just hoping that things mm sort of land and being forgiving myself as a person who likes things a certain way that they're not always going to be a certain way second piece of advice I when I left fusion and wasn't entirely sure what I was going to do next. I knew that I was working on this book. I knew that was going to work on television pilot. I was so afraid aide of disappearing and I said to my friend Janet mock. I'd just I feel like I'm going under crown know. Is Everybody going to forget about me. And and she said No. You're cocooning and I love to that. It wasn't that I was disappearing. It's that I was. I was Samore sizing and I think for those of us who are on a ten ten year plan and imagine that ten year plan one way it can be very helpful some time to take a little time away and Rigor Madam Butterfly Flight. I think it's really great Thank you for joining me. Thank you so much fun to be on a limit. This was really fun. The book is is called the likability traps the podcast is called Latina to Latina the MSNBC show is as yet unnamed but it will be with Menendez. Hello Oh thank you shoutout to the team. Who helps make this happen? Each and every week my producer Taylor done editor Brittany Martinez Research. Justin Lane Win and thanks to ABC audio as well. We'll see all next week. You are you hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions then. Zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using a an online dashboard get started today at indeed dot com slash snow limits. That's indeed dot com slash no limits.
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"From salesforce studios this is blazing trails trails where we bring you conversations with leaders opinions. Move US inspire us and make us think. I'm Michael Vivo. From sales for studios to kick off the show we're going to start with a ten part series highlighting some of the best conversations a dream force twenty nineteen featuring speakers like Emilia Clarke may know from game of thrones and being around human suffering. There is no greater way of making yourself feel lucky to be living unlucky for everything that you might have in that moment in on it some. Yes pretty remarkable apple CEO. Tim Cook but I think if you could flip a switch and only do one thing. It's the basic basic way we treat one another that would solve so many other problems in Arizona. Huffington who founded the huffpost and is founder and CEO of thrive global success and performance and wellbeing are not on opposite sides. Success and performance should be based on the foundation of Health and wellbeing. I think over the next few weeks you'll be hearing from those guests and more sometimes I'll be hosting sometimes one of my colleagues from the salesforce studios team. It's all presented by wordpress VIP with unparalleled power and flexibility wordpress. VIP Provides Enterprise wordpress support and guidance to power your digital experiences experiences at scale to find out more visit W. P. VIP dot com so hit that subscribe button and look for the first episode featuring Amelia. Clark coming your way this Thursday blazing. Trails is the production of salesforce. A customer relationship management solution committed to helping you deliver the personalized experiences customers. Want so they'll keep coming back again and again salesforce else. Force bringing companies and customers together visit salesforce dot com slash learn more.