20 Episode results for "Holocene"

The next extinction

True Mysteries of the Pacific Northwest

05:42 min | 10 months ago

The next extinction

"Welcome to kiss myths and mysteries. Nightmare hosts kick crumb. Today's story could be maybe appropriate for what's going on today. With a corona virus it's called the Holocene extinction. This podcast usually addresses now standing myth. Sometimes some history often the common thread connecting myths to mysteries both have been around a long time. Both existed across continents around the world is often not fact surrounding these myths and mysteries or difficult to locate or have been lost in the midst of time many myths slip into a category of mystery where they rejected out of hand by science yet. Just because science rejects myth does not mean they can prove it does not exist recently. This podcast covered deja-vu included four scientific theories on what deja-vu really was. However these were just theories and could no more disprove deja Vu than the paranormal explanation could prove it as I present data surrounding extinction and the current whole scene or sixty extinction. I've attempted to use facts. That are agreed on by experts. In that field. From around the world the earliest extinction came around when an asteroid somewhere between six and fifty miles long struck the Yucatan Peninsula Mexico. There's some debate about the size of the asteroid but it's agreed on by the biggest minds. On the matter that had caused a worldwide climate disruption and brought about the stasis extinction event a mass extinction in which seventy five percent of Earth's plant and animal species became extinct basically brought the extinction of dinosaurs to an end. Keep in mind that this conversation will not cover earliest life. The crawled out of the primordial soup. Many of species are survived. The worldwide climate change created by the asteroid died out during the second grade extinction or the third or fourth or fifth. While canes around the World Unleash Poison. Gas into the atmosphere oceans encountered huge algae blooms at depleted. The oxygen destroying see life is believed that live today volved from the four percent of animal and plant life that survive five huge changes in the atmosphere. Okay here comes a great controversy. A heated debate in the scientific community is whether or not earth is heading into another mass extinction. Currently the world is in a lot of people refer to as the whole scene extinction era plants and animals are dying off at a abnormally fast rate and life is Reno. It could be a danger this time. However the cause is not volcanic activity nor asteroid impacts human activity is triggering a change in global climate which has increased species extinction to between ten and one hundred times faster than the norm. The evidence is pretty clear. We are headed toward the six maths extinction. If we are not already in all this leads to a very big question will we? Humans be part of the sex extinction just because we survived the loss of x. Number of species. Can we keep going down the same trajectory? Or do we eventually imperil the systems? That keep people alive. And if we could survive. Would we really want to live in a fireman devoid of a species? Diversity unlike deja Vu mentioned earlier in this podcast it may someday be explained by science and that today we can only say time will tell paranormal or neurological. The question of human surviving six extinction can't be addressed in that same time will tell manner simply because when that time that tells arrives it may be too late to change. The conclusion of the whole scene extinction was produced here night. Owl Sound Studio brought to you by the Rogue Valley Metaphysical Library and books of adventure and life on the edge you can find these at Kit. Crumb DOT COM and by Sharon. Bauer internationally recognized psychic in media and author of the Book Life. Eternal love immortal that you can get ad Sharon Bauer medium dot com. I have a programming note. I'm really excited about starting April first. There's going to be a new program out called chasing door. Paranormal fiction by Kit crumb. Now this is not in place of myths and mysteries but is in response to hunters of emails. I received over the past year and a half asking if I have longer stories deaths and mystery usually from six to ten minutes in his fact based but I have hundreds of paranormal stories. I'll be reading on chasing the dark paranormal fiction and they have a thread of facts through them but they are fiction stories about the paranormal. So for those of you looking for something longer than ten minutes chasing the dark is for you. It's a response to all the emails. I received over the years asking for a longer story chasing the dark. Paranormal fiction by Kit. Chrome starts April. I this is kick chrome. Thanks for listening.

deja Vu Sharon Bauer Kit crumb Holocene Yucatan Peninsula Mexico Bauer Reno Rogue Valley Metaphysical Libr ten minutes seventy five percent four percent
Are We Living in a New Epoch?

BrainStuff

07:24 min | 2 years ago

Are We Living in a New Epoch?

"Hey, brain stuff listeners instead of an ad today. I wanted to tell you about new podcast. I think you might dig for my friends, Robert lamb, and Joe McCormack, you might already know them from the weird science podcast stuff to blow your mind. Their new show is called invention each episode of invention examines different technological turning point and the people and cultures the provoked the change they consider the origins and impact of everything from the guillotine to the vending machine. Chopsticks to sunglasses. Braille to x-rays and lots more new episodes of invention come out every Monday, listen and subscribe to invention on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you happen to find your podcasts. Welcome to brain stuff from how stuff works. Hey, brain stuff, Lauren Vogel bomb here. Thanks to greenhouse gas emissions. The percentage of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere is now equal to about four hundred twelve parts per million. That's a sharp increase from what levels were even sixty years ago the world. Meteorological organization says earth's atmosphere hasn't seen such a high concentration of the gas in three to five million years harmful emissions are just one of the environmental concerns. Today's leaders bus. Confront trash accumulation is another since the nineteen fifties. Humans have generated about nine billion tonnes that's eight point three metric tons of plastic and dumped most of it in landfills, plus homo sapiens, are overpopulating like wild as our numbers skyrocket. Loads of other species find themselves on the decline you and I are now witnessing one of the biggest mass extinction events of all time. Donald thorough appeal how just geologist put it this way. We are geologic force in and of ourselves mankind's overall impact on planet earth has been so dramatic that some scientists think a change to the geologic timescale is an order, according to them, we should reclassify the very recent past as a new unit in time defined by humidity's long lasting marks on the world's climate geology and biological makeup. Is proposed unit has a name the anthropology and epoch meaning the age of humans. Earth is about four point five. Four billion years old geologists have split its history into large blocks of time called aeons which are further subdivided into eras. Those in turn are made up of smaller units called periods finally divisions within a period are known as epochs. So right now, we're living in the coronary period of the Senate Zoellick era, which is part of the Phanor Zoellick EON. But the question is what's the current epoch? If you'd ask someone one hundred years ago that said the Holocene epoch. But there in lies the debate earth's most recent ice age ended eleven thousand seven hundred years ago that point in time is recognized as the end of the Pleistocene epoch which began just less than two point six million years ago and the dawn of the Holocene epoch the dividing lines between epochs correspond with important moments in history like abrupt changes in the climate evidence for these events is typically found within the layers or strata of rock on our planet ice core. Samples may also contain clues for their explained. Nowadays epochs are defined by section of rock that has distinctive boundaries at the top and bottom. He added that specific box are also sometimes characterized by the presence or absence of key, fossils, though, note that larger changes like the mass extinction of the non avian. Dinosaurs are marked by changes in eras, our sin Zoellick era, for example, is the age of mammals the end of the last ice age marked the beginning of the Holocene and established its lower boundary. It's traditionally been thought that this particular epoch is still going on today. But in the year two thousand Nobel laureate. Paul Cranston helped popularize an alternative viewpoint that year, heat and biologist Eugene f Stormer argued that recent human activities had pushed the world out of the Holocene and into a new epoch decades. Earlier Stormer had coined the term anthroposophic derived from the Greek word for human as a possible. Name for this hypothetical new unit of geologic time, it stuck the international commission on strategic fee is the body that standardizes the Geelong. Timescale? It has yet to recognize the anthropoid seen as an official epoch. Although the topic has been discussed as of this writing the commission maintains the Holocene is still ongoing, but maybe scientists will feel differently someday. For their is heard it argued that geologists living in the far future. Perhaps even tens of millions of years from now, quote could tell when humans were here because we've left so many traces in the rocks chemical traces as well as actual physical objects like trash sea water absorbs about one fourth of her carbon dioxide emissions. This has led to widespread ocean acidification, which will doubtless leave telltale limestones behind dissolved carbonates in the sediment are going to be another one of our calling cards future. Paleontologists may also notice the sudden disappearance a great many species from the fossil record. We would also expect as yet unborn. Researchers to discover the radio metric signatures of nuclear weaponry. All around the world plutonium two thirty nine which is uncommon in nature was embedded in sediments that lakes posed to the air during the nuclear. Tests of the nineteen forties, and that brings us to a bone of contention about the enterprise seen. If it really is a legitimate geological. Epoch what moment in history. Should we recognize as it starting point? One argument is the enterprise scene began in the nineteen forties. When the first atomic weapon detonations occurred like the famous trinity nuclear test of nineteen Forty-five. Another option might be to define the anthropoid as everything that's happened since the industrial revolution kicked off for their said. Others have wanted to push the lower boundary date all the way back to when humans really started transforming the planet at the beginning of civilization and agriculture at least ten or eleven thousand years ago, regardless if the geological community ever officially splits up, the Holocene and rebrand these past few decades century or millennia as the anthropoid seen a potential benefit might be the gestures symbolic value, Cranston and many others. Hope it would send a powerful message governments and private citizens alike. As thorough puts it when you use that term everyone else, then realizes the geologists are making a statement about what we've done. To the planet. Today's episode was written by Mark and Chini and produced by Tyler clang for I heart media, and how stuff works if this episode piqued your interest about where a world is going. Check out the podcast at the end of the world. Josh Clark for more existential dread, and what we can do to help fix it. And of course, for more on this and lots of other earth, changing, topics. Visit our home planet. How stuff works dot com. You know, people say necessity is the mother of invention. But that's not always true. Sometimes the mother of invention is advertising. Yeah. Or pure accident. How about ego maniacal delusion? Absolutely. Or just a desperate longing. To be cool. I'm Robert lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. We're the host of the science podcasts stuff to blow your mind. And now we're branching off into the exploration of invention. Invention is the story of human history told one piece of technology at a time the things we made and how they made us invention publishes every Monday, listen and subscribe to invention on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts.

Holocene geologist apple Robert lamb Paul Cranston Eugene f Stormer Lauren Vogel Senate Zoellick Geelong Joe McCormack Josh Clark Donald Joe McCormick official
Urgent action required to steer clear of climate tipping points - Johan Rockstrm part 3

The Science Show

11:41 min | 4 months ago

Urgent action required to steer clear of climate tipping points - Johan Rockstrm part 3

"But now we continue our series of talks from Sweden with Yawn, brock strum on climate impact and the special nature of the Pleistocene recently Assad with some research colleagues at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, a look at a brand new science article in which are climate model for the first time had recreated the climate on earth over the last three million years, which covers the entire geological pleistocene epoch. The Pleistocene is so important as it constitutes a point of reference for life on. Earth. Because although sure our planet has existed for four point, five, billion years it's only in the last million years. That earth has looked at least roughly in the way as we know it, the continents were roughly where they are today. The North and South Poles were covered with ice. The atmosphere had a similar chemical composition to what we have today. Planet, Earth. Our earth has only existed for three million years. All, comparisons further back in time are quite meaningless. And the manuscript I hold in my hand is not just reaching. My brain is also striking straight into my heart. A deep humility settles in when look at the graph showing the variations in mean global temperature on earth over the past three, million years it shows that we have never throughout the whole plasticine exceeded two degrees global warming compared to our pre industrial average temperature of approximately fourteen degrees. Never. This means that Earth despite all the stresses and natural shocks from fluctuations and Solar Radiation Volcanic eruptions, asteroid impacts and earthquakes has regulated itself within an incredibly narrow range minus four degrees. Celsius were in deep ice age plus two degree Celsius. We're in a warm interglacial period lasting three million years. It's absolutely incredible. Especially since we know why. It's earth's ability to self regulate the ability of the oceans to absorb and store heat the ability of the ice sheets to reflect solar radiation the ability of the forests to absorb carbon dioxide and the ability to be a safe and store greenhouse gases. The planet is a biophysical self playing piano whose music sheet stays. Within the minus four plus to scale. If that is not caused for humidity than I do not know what humidity is. And a deep concern in hundred and fifty years. In the geological blink of an eye, we risk now tearing this Planetary Symphony to shreds. Let that sink in. The global average temperature is now changing hundred and seventy times faster than over the last seven thousand years and it's doing. So in the wrong direction upwards when the current orbital forcing meaning are distance to the sun and the current low level of solar activity means that the temperature should in fact, be slowing down. You don't have to be a physicist to understand that we have a problem. Climate skeptics like to argue that historically the climate has fluctuated so much. So why shouldn't it be fluctuating now? Obviously. It fluctuates. But we are now racing towards plus three to plus four degrees warming. Sceptics like to bring up the little ice age the time when Swedish King Call The tenth Gustav Marched His army across the deep frozen great belt and the little belt in sixteen fifty eight to beat the Danes or that the vikings grew grapes in Greenland during the medieval warm period. Yes. Of course, this is true but it all occurred within the natural boundaries of minus four and plus two degrees. And it's here within this sweet spot that we must remain for our own sakes and our future? In August two, thousand, eighteen at the peak of that year's drought and fires in Sweden and Europe. We published a scientific paper where we tried to establish whether we are at risk of pushing the entire planet away from its current state of equilibrium, the Holocene epoch where we have been since the last ice age. This is fundamental. Our Planet Earth can be in three different states. It can be in a deep ice age as it was twenty thousand years ago with large is. Extending over the northern and Southern Hemisphere with over two kilometers of ice above our heads here in Sweden an ice extending as far south as Berlin. This is an equilibrium state as it is not only lower solar radiation that keeps earth in an ice age. It is also the feedbacks caused by ice. As the ice sheets grow earth gets whiter, which means that more more incoming heat from the sun is reflected back to space more ice means it gets colder which means even more is and suddenly you have a self reinforcing mechanism. This is what makes an ice age and equilibrium earth remains. They're not only because of the external forces from the sun but also thanks to these inbuilt biophysical processes in this case, the color of ice. Earth can also be in an interglacial an intermediate state, which is what we have today where was still have permanent is sites at the polls and we have glaciers on land and the biosphere with forests, grasslands, and lakes roughly as Earth as we know it. It is these two equilibrium states and only these two states that the planet has been over the last three million years that is during the entire Pleistocene. But then there is a third state when earth tips over from self cooling feedback loops to self heating feedback loops, which leads to an inevitable journey to becoming a hot tropical planet that is four, five, six, potentially seven, eight degrees warmer than today where in principle, all the ice has gone and the surface of the ocean is more than fifty meters higher than it is today and where the conditions for live is fundamentally different all over the entire planet. This is what we call hothouse earth. Or Highs Zaid hot time in German where the article when we published it drew so much attention doing this burning heat wave in the summer of twenty eighteen that highs Zaid was chosen as the word of the year in Germany. In this research, we tried for the first time to identify the global mean temperature at which we are in danger of tipping over from our current state, the Holocene interglacial, and embarking on a journey that would inevitably take us to highlight our conclusion is that we cannot exclude that the planetary threshold. The tipping point where we kickoff unstoppable processes of self amplified warming is at two degrees. Bear in mind we are today at one point one very mind were moving fast along a path that reaches one point five in potentially only twenty, thirty years and two degrees in forty fifty years. This is one I would argue of the biggest. Challenges of all to test whether we are right. Can the planet cope with or Canet not cope with higher temperatures than two degrees? But. My conclusion based on the knowledge we have today is that the planetary threshold to avoid triggering high Zaid is most likely at two degrees. Of course, it's not so that Earth will fall off a cliff at two degrees. The risk is rather that we would then pass a threshold where the shift towards hindsight would become unstoppable. In other words, we face an urgency at the timeframe whether we pushed the on button on not triggering stoppable warming is within the next few decades meaning essentially. Now, if we pressed the UNBUTTON and kick off the great planetary machinery with feedback loops causing self warming, then the full impacts may play out over three four, five, hundred years before we reach a new equilibrium state hothouse. A planet with over ten meters, sea level rise temperatures, and extreme droughts, floods, and heatwaves making large parts of earth uninhabitable a planet we do not want a planet that cannot support US humans. This requires from us that we understand two different time horizons. The short term time of commitment. When do we push the unbutton but then also the long term time horizon when we have the full impact hitting on people these are different but ethically, I would argue only the trigger moment counts, we cannot leave a damaged planet beyond repair to future generations. So to summarize the decisive moment when we press don't press the button lies within the next ten to twenty years. With consequences for all future generations a moral, bum. Are High site article concluded that degree Celsius is our ultimate planetary threshold that we need to stay away from. This article actually came out six months before our climate modeling showed that we've never exceeded two degrees throughout the whole pleistocene, the last three million years. In Two thousand nine, our planetary boundaries size showed that one point five degrees is a boundary we should not transgress because then we enter a danger zone of uncertainty. So perhaps you do understand my feeling a deep concern of humility in the face of our latest scientific findings, which really only says, one thing tipping points are real and if they're crossed, they lead to unstoppable changes, which requires a new relationship between us and our planet, and that we realize that we are facing a new ethics. What we do today will determine the future on earth for all our children and their children. Ulan Rock Strom head of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research in Germany with that took care of Radio Sweden more from him next week.

Sweden Potsdam Institute for Climate Zaid Germany Assad physicist Holocene Europe Holocene Ulan Rock Strom Gustav vikings US Canet Southern Hemisphere Berlin
17 - The Anthropocene - Side Quest

The Culture Quest

1:15:23 hr | 9 months ago

17 - The Anthropocene - Side Quest

"Hello and welcome to the culture quest. We are Hamad ventures, and today we are going on a Quist with me as always Peter Hello and borrow high and I am in on. Thank you the listeners at home for taking part in. Our Noble. Quest. So, before we get into this, let me explain what we're going to be doing today. Usually we all watch a movie or read a book or listen to an album, and then we discuss it on the episode. This time I've been reading up on the subject that I was very interested in and I'm GonNa, tell you guys all about. It's important. Mention that I've prepared a presentation to go along with this episode, non should be just fine without it. You just WANNA listen but it might be fun to follow along. So in the show notes, you'll find a link to the presentation on both on the lights and on Youtube. Both of the versions should be accessible from any device that you may have. Anyway, I tried to make this both interesting and fun So let's get right into it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So my presentation is called improper seen or the eight of man I'm going to introduce to you this very interesting subject that touches mainly geology in some environmental and earth sciences. Feel free to stop me and ask questions whenever you want and one last thing before we start. If you're following along with the presentation, you'll hear this little blip sound that signifies moving along to the next slide and let's get into it. So here's what we're going to be talking about today I'll start by introducing the idea of the anthropoid what it stands for where it came from. If you've heard the term before, you might know that a term that was suggested is a name for the geological time period in which we are currently living it. As. You will see the terms deal not formal in the scientific world, still just a suggestion. Because, it has a lot to do with geology. We'll talk for a short while about the geological timescale and Earth's history. then to understand why the anthroposophic is even an idea, we'll talk about the interactions between humanity and the global system. If the terms ever formalized than the time period of the entropy has to have a starting point. So I'll present a few suggested bus abilities. Then, after I've introduced of these aspects will talk about whether it should be formalize or not present if you pros and cons, and then to end the presentation. Scherf you personal thoughts about the intrepid scene and then we'll discuss it. So, is I briefly mentioned before the therapist is a term that is proposed to be used for the name of the geological epoch that we currently live in. It seems today that humanity, it's such a major factor in the global system that we influenced it on every level so much so that there's evidence that our impact is taking us out of the earth system typical of the Allison e Buck. We'll talk about the Hollis in just a second. I'll explain what it is. But the the main idea is that humanity has caused changes to the world. There are not natural. and. So it has been suggested to name the current epoch after us the anthropic seen. Let's talk about the terms ad analogy. The terms made of two words and PROPO- which in ancient Greek means human I we've talked about that word, a while back I think in our Trivia episode, we weren't sure if anthropology specifically human or maybe it's bigger than maybe it something else. So now we know and throw is specifically. It's also used in anthropology, the study of humans. The second part of the word scene. So the scene comes from the ancient Greek word Kino's meaning new or recent. Also used in the Holocene which again, I'll talk about in a second. So the term anthroposophic was first suggested by now Paul Crutzen Nobel Prize, laureate paper called simply the anthropic. which came out in their two thousand. Before, his suggestion of the term other terms were suggested, some examples are the newest fear which means the sphere, of reason. The Zoe era or the anthrocene. But basically, it is accepted that this suggestions are based on specific aspects of humanity's impact on the global system. It's also believed that these terms were suggested before we could really understand the aspects of our impact on the global system. So I'm going to try and show the throw scene is meant as an all encompassing term, which puts it in a bit of different level than the other terms. Let's talk about geology and figure out what the geological time scale is. The geological time scale is a system of chronological dating. That is used to describe the timing and relationships of events in Earth's history. The basic time units are. Gone Era Period epoch and age. If you're looking at the presentation on the right side of the screen, you'll see the earth history in the geological time scale format. And it's important to note. That like the definition mentions. Each of these time periods was not just arbitrarily chosen were defined based on evidence that was left usually by major event. I'll go over the timescale a little bit specifically in a bit. So who decides what counts as a period of its own and when it begins and ends? So let me introduce to you the International Commission on. Strategic Rafi, the ICS. Strategic Affi is the brand of geology concerned with the order and relative positions of layers of sediment and the relationship to the geological timescale. The ICS is primary objective is define global units of international criminal shred graphic chart that in turn are the basis of international geologic timescale. So, after critic suggestion gain traction in two thousand, nate, the anthroposophic working group was established as an ics sub-unit the Roberson working group or the WG. Their role is to advise on the formalization of the term and suggest clear markers that can signify possible starting points to the anthropocentric. Let's quickly go over. Earth history and see basically how it works I'm going to go through it with a really going to dip. There's a lot more to say about each bit of it but not all of it is relevant to the anthroposophic so. Between four and a half billion to four billion years ago. The was in the Haidian Eon obviously a lot was different back. Then the atmosphere was rich in carbon dioxide. The atmospheric pressure was very high and it was very hot. The average surface temperature on the earth was two, hundred and thirty, Celsius or four, hundred, forty, six Fahrenheit. The earth was covered by liquid oceans, and if you're wondering how liquid oceans were possible in such a hot environment, well, the answer is that the atmospheric pressure was twenty seven times higher than it is today and that affects the boiling temperature of the water. They hate yon is named after Hades the Greek God of the underworld. That's just a nice little tidbit there. How how do researchers realized that That time was I mean, is this according to layers within the earth or definitely all of these yawns? All of these town periods were determined by layers in this try to. The oldest stones, oldest rocks that we can find on the earth have markers, kind of point that being the case you can see specific minerals that are the occur in nature only in these types of conditions. Remain I guess it's also a function of how do you can dig right? Definitely. This based on the best knowledge we can find. So essentially like you can find for instance minerals, which could I never existed if for certain conditions and those conditions, obviously they can use to sit of, did you saw the facts about the world at this time? So that's how they would get probably more more definite sort of outcomes such as liquid water oceans, covering the and stuff. It's. It's a big leap to go straight there. But. Obviously, probably a lot of precise measurements that come along the way. Yeah. This is the because of the the oldest sediments and everything keeps moving. So a lot of the evidence gets recycled back into the middle of the earth. So this is the part in Earth history that we have the least amount of data on. So maybe this is has a bit of guessing in it as well. You can only really get the data on stuff that you can reverse engineer unite if it's been washed out too many times and it sort of lost near. Exactly. So after the Haney on. The. Arkin EON which started four billion years ago and ended two point five, billion years ago, in the Arcadian. Life on earth began. There is evidence of the first organic molecules and in this canyon. Bacteria have ruled the planet. An interesting side note is stromed lights. These rock formations in the shallow waters are layered columns formed by the growth of layer upon layer of cyanobacteria. Fossilized metal lights around the world are the records of the ancient life on earth. So basically. A few bacteria settled down and generation. After generation, they built on top of each other. Until we had these lights, we can still find some of these fossilized all around I. Think we have some the Caribbean, some industry industraliazed, but there are places we can still find these bacteria and rowing in these type of form. Do you know much more about the. carryout it sale, is that that is before the Carrie. Did you say exactly broker Yacht Inc. they're the basic type of cells there. One celled lifeforms. Basically, they don't have Oregon nells. EUKARYOTIC life forms. Which? Comes a little bit later, there are more complex. They have organized, have specific functions within the cell, but anyway, that Santa Bacteria mentioned with forming these from. they've also started using solar energy and atmosphere carbon in a process known as photosynthesis that process photosynthesis is still widely used today. The products of photosynthesis, our sugar, which is used to store energy and oxygen or oh two, the oxygen we breathe. which is released into the atmosphere. It's It's a by product of photosynthesis. The oxygen released by the Santa Bacteria started accumulating in the waters, and then it was released into the atmosphere and that caused the atmosphere to change from a weekly reducing atmosphere to an oxidizing atmosphere. Basically, the accumulation of oxygen in the atmosphere has led to the extinction of almost all life on earth in what is known as the great oxygenation event. Wow. Yeah. That was a huge mass extinction which has led us into the Proletariat Zoellick on that occurred two point five billion years ago and point five, four, billion years ago or five, hundred and forty million years ago. In the Pro Azoic more complex multicellular lifeforms begin to evolve in the ozone layer stabilized. We. See the rise of invertebrates, fish fungi, lend plans, reptiles, conifers, dinosaurs, and birds, and during the resort, a few mass extinctions have happened as well. These mass extinctions, kind of separate, the protozoa into subunits, which I'm not gonNA mention right now. But you can find that information. After the. We have the Federal Zoellick which started five hundred and forty million years ago, and it's still going today. This is the current eon will living saw al going to smaller units of time until we get to current time. So the Zoecke on has seen much animal and plant life. sixty, six, million years ago. There was the last mass extinction which marks the beginning of the Senate Zoellick era since then memos have diversified and rule larger. The last two point, five, million years, or so are known as the place to seen epoch, which is defined by alternating ice and dry periods. Around eleven thousand and seven, hundred years ago. The last ice age ended, which marks the starting point of the Holocene. Epoch. which is a time period. We officially living today. In, the Holocene mankind has started farming, mining expanding and creating new technologies which brings us to today. Let's talk about humanity in the Global System about the interactions between us in the world. Earlier I mentioned the great oxygenation event never since that event has one species had such an impact on the global system. Remember almost all life on earth was extinct. Anyway, humanity might not cause the extinction of almost all lifeforms on earth but so far, impact on the earth has definitely been global. The main reasons are the exponential growth in human population and the fact that our technology advances in leaps and. The amount of resources require is ever expanding. Until very recently, we've been burning fossil fuels using resources without considering any externalities as if our energy consumption is clean and these resources are unlimited. But now we believe that some of the global changes to the environment will be in place for. A Millennia or more some of these effects. Maybe permanent. Let me go over a few examples of changes into global system were brought on by humanity. I'm not going to go. Over a lot of these examples. But if you're interested, you can go on the AWA website. The working group? They have a lot of information there. The first thing that comes to mind when discussing humanity and the environment is climate change, it's caused mainly by fossil fuel burning and gas emissions that have occurred in the last two centuries or so the changes in climate bedrooms, 'cause animals to chain migration patterned, invade new habitats, which makes a lot of ecological systems, loser balance. This may all seem kind of distant tolerable. Tolerable. But the breakdown of ecological systems may have far reaching effects such as extinctions droughts. Of course, it's worth preserving these ecological systems just for the sake of not destroying everything we touch, but I kind of want to emphasize the fact that it will eventually come back to bite us We rely on these eco-systems, food chains for all kinds of resources and natural services. A great example for that is the fact that climate change is connected with ocean acidification, which directly leads to the decline of coral algae communities. These are at the base of very important ecosystems that will be affected. These eco-systems produce massive amounts of oxygen while also responsible for carbon dioxide fixation, which is basically removing two from the atmosphere. They provide plenty of nutrients to a lot of species, eventually some of them with fish and rely on his food sources and other things that briefs built by corals provided us with coastal protection, and also they have immense economical values mostly in the form of to resume all of that would just vanish along with them. Basically these coral reefs have have a bunch of stuff that they provide us with a bunch of natural services that we would just not have if they all died. Another impact we have on the world is sediment Rosen transport like sediment is always routed by rain and weather, and it's always transported by rivers and stuff, but it's estimated that the rates of sediment erosion and transport have increased by an order of magnitude do turbans Asian agriculture. These, heightened Sassi's 'cause surface water pollution reservoir sedation, and changes in river morphology, which all directly affects people who rely on these water sources for drinking and agriculture. It. Also causes mighty floods which can damage roads, clogged sewers, and destroy private property. That's again something that is caused directly by human activity. Our impact is also noticed in aspects that are less noticeable to the naked eye. There are many biogeochemical cycles of elements that are disturbed. In nature elements and compounds basically go through a cycle in which they appear are used in different forms in the ECO system and I simplify it example is the water cycle. So basically, you have the oceans and rivers which are required of water. The Sun provides energy that tries it cycle. And the water in Reservoir evaporates into the atmosphere condenses into clouds, precipitates, rain snow or hail, and flows back into the reservoirs. So a lot of compounds go through similar cycles which a lot of systems rely on these cycles and today we know that many of these cycles are stirred anthropogenic influence, basically human activity. An example for that is the carbon cycle. We used to have between two, hundred, sixty, two, hundred, eighty, five parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, and that was fairly stable between seven thousand years ago until the beginning of the industrial revolution. Sense. Industrial Revolution till today over four hundred parts per million in the atmosphere. Basically, it used to be around to sixty to eighty, four, seven, thousand years until we started using engines and steam engines and. All kinds of technology and it's rising since then and carbon is known to be A greenhouse gas are just are just cut you off back when we're in what back when I was in high school. Go on the young one Basically, every day was like the teacher trying to prove climate change to us, and by the end of like twelve, which is. The second year of school in Australia. It was like everyone was sort of on board. At that point. It was his undeniable and would always check the parts per million for the carbon dioxide and stuff and I think not sure the exact date. But I remember like it was during my learning win over four, hundred pounds of it was a bit of Kamal. Stein. Bad. Bad milestone. But still, Mustang these measurements were taken in Manoa in Hawaii. I. Think they started nine, hundred, fifty seven and they noticed the rise of carbon dioxide concentration. The evidence for the seven, thousand years of basically stable carbon concentrations are from ice cores from Antarctica and stuff. Yeah. Because you can just dig down and then you pretty much have a time capsule. Zach from factly. It frozen. Do we know what happened before seven thousand or is that just the way? We can get it from the US I. Think There's evidence that goes back and we know that there is a cycle that goes up and down in terms of carbon dioxide concentrations like I. Think peak levels were twelve hundred PPM. But the thing is that by looking at these evidence, you can see how much time it takes for the carbon to build up in a natural way and the the the rate of carbon dioxide accumulation in our atmosphere is. Nothing. Natural. It's wild. It's so much faster than it would be naturally. Hypothetically, if you were to map on a graph, every day would just be HBO might say. It'd be three, hundred and fifty, three, fifty, one, fifty, one for like a million days, and then he would go up by one more in another million days but. Ossets going up like significantly like in one hundred years, it's gone up like you would never get in before the industrial revolution. You'd never have any period where we got this this quickly in basically like if you zoom out on this graph in, you look at the last few million years or so it looked like hills. Up It goes down, it goes up, it goes down. But then you rich the industrial revolution and there's a spike, but almost immediately as well. Exactly. Pretty much immediately. One Hundred Years. LAKA. Timescale of lights, nothing is really nothing you interesting cycle we've interrupted is the nitrogen cycle. The concentration of reactive nitrogen in the atmosphere has risen by one hundred, twenty percent since nineteen, thirteen, the urine, which we have started to use the Harbour Bosch process is a nitrogen fixation process which provides us with Omonia, which used in many industries. It's basically a process that allows us to fix nitrogen from all kinds of sources and we use this nitrogen. Nitrogen for a bunch of different purposes, and another interesting thing is a concentration of phosphorus in soils, which has doubled due to fertilizer use now, both the nitrogen and phosphorus are using fertilizers, and in different industries, they end up in bodies of water, put him in the earth. You put too much fertilizer and everything that's not used up by nature riches, bodies of water, which is a cause of unification, a state of being overly rich in nutrients. That causes blooms and oxygen deficiencies which affect the microbe Yoda in the body of water, sometimes in extreme cases that have in effect the macrobiotic. The things we take for granted and like fertilizer use, and you know buying bleach and ammonia for home use. Eventually just causes changes that can really topple ecological systems. I give you free interactions between Minniti and and the world around us. I tried to basically establish a connection between humanity and the global. System. So let's move and talk about a few practicalities when considering the idea of the anthrax seen. So when you define a time period, you have to have a starting point to it. You can't just say okay. Now, we're living Indian processing right and to the fact that time periods of connected by major events, usually extinctions being the most common ones I. think it kind of puts. In a weird perspective, you know we're comparing our impact on earth to major extinction events. Now, I'm not saying that this is not a good comparison I just wanted to emphasize that point. So when defining a new time period, basically we're looking for a golden spike. In a golden spike is a geologic marker created by global event that leads to long lasting global changes can be used indicate a change in geologic time division. Basically. A golden spike is something that we can relate to a specific time period and it's geologically evident like we can see it in the Strada. Like I said earlier, it's not an arbitrary choice. So when it comes to the prophecy, there are two schools of thought the. I. Stands for choosing a point that is any amenities recent or earlier passed as the starting point of the encompassing in the second stands for choosing a point that is in the. The future like one that we can point to as an absolute point of no return about the first one is much more popular. It's much more likely to be chosen out of the two. So focused on that one. So let's discuss potential starting points, markers or golden spikes for the enthralling. So very popular suggestion, the nineteen fifty. There are quite a few candidate markers for human activity that stands for that time period. One big one is plastic. It's been mass produced since around the nineteen fifties It is found now in almost every environment on earth including the deepest parts of the ocean. There's this Guy Victor. Vo He went down to Mariana Trench in submersible vehicle and Maria Trench. If you don't know, that's the deepest point in the world's ocean, it's just under eleven kilometers. He claims that when he went down there, he found a plastic bag there and I think that's the third report of plastic and Mariana Trench. Basically, we find plastic everywhere and due to the fact that plastic is an artificial product which has a considerable effect on the environment and it is long lasting the environment. So it's a very popular potential marker. Other possible markers are aluminum and concrete. both are widely used. The aluminum that we use industrially is not naturally occurring, which makes it as artificial plastic and ninety percent of the production of aluminum took place after the year nine, hundred fifty. Concrete while invented by the Romans sites uprise only after World War Two. Both are suggested as martyrs for the anthropoid and are referred to as techno fossils and one other very interesting. Suggestion is nuclear processes byproducts. Nuclear weapon testing began in July of nineteen forty-five. Since then artificial radionuclides are spread detected a significantly higher rates than before. These originating nuclear explosion testings in nineteen fifty, two others come from nuclear energy production methods, and other artificial processes. A suggestion for another starting point is the beginning of the industrial revolution and the invention of the steam engine. It's considered to be the point at which technology started developing at an increased rate. The very first interference with the greenhouse gases. Started at this point in time, which is it tightly with global, warming a staple, the rapping. There are a few specific dates in consideration all in the eighteenth century and another third suggestion setting the starting of the therapist seen around eight to twelve thousand years ago. This suggestion is based on the time period in which farming became widely used by the suggested starting point. Around a thousand years ago, humans have reached every habitable continent farming and agricultural techniques have began to make there impact on the earth. The main example is clearing of land for agriculture and animal husbandry, which are both have influenced habitats and biodiversity and basically have led to. Science shows that around eight, three percent of wild mammals have disappeared since the beginning of civilization. Both, due to decrease populations after the recent ice age and also pressure from hunting. So, remember, the anthropic scene is based on our impact on the global system and an example of an extinction that these ancient humans caused that had far reaching. Impacts is the approach Adana or the giant wombat Peter. Have you ever heard of it I think have was in Australia Yup I just looked up the deported on Yup. It's like the size of A. Mammoth, maybe tiny small Mitch more also. Giant. Is Very. Very Very. Very cute. It's a species that is believed to have kept biomass levels in. Australia's Bush under control. After, it was driven to extinction. The Wild Flora is believed to have grown uncontrollably leading to a series of widespread bushfires that have caused degradation of habitats and further extinctions and I think like you sometimes hear about the an idea that stands for returning to a roots or returning to nature as if back. Then we lived in harmony with nature as. Balance was only recently interrupted, but our influence nature is apparent for thousands of years back for for for better for worse. Let's move along and talk about the formalization of the anthropocentric. So it goes without saying, but there is some opposition, the formalization of the term. Geologist claimed that there isn't enough evidence for amenities impact on nature. Basically other time periods having easily had hundreds of thousands or even millions of years to accumulate markers in comparison. The the therapist is basically still very young. Some say and rightly. So the the time periods were always named retroactively, and that has advantages like we might still be only taking the first few steps in a new age in whom he guests. Things will break out and what will be the defining features of this time period. And some even claim that the Holocene is in a way already the age of men. The holocene mentioned earlier started when the last ice age ended, but nothing set it apart from earlier interglacial periods except the propagation of humanity and the spread of agriculture. So basically, the only thing that separates the Holocene from. Dry periods is so why not call the housing, the age of men, but well on therapist and supporters claim that the difference is that the? Starting point wasn't directly influenced by humanity. and. Another interesting claim is that talking about the entropy scene is a waste of time and resources basically. Naming this time period won't change the way we do science. It's just a name. We are already using the suggested markers as measurements of environmental factors. Another thing about this term is that it basically outgrew its roots in the field of geology, which might be a bit of a problem. The term became somewhat popular in the scientific world, I myself you know as an environmental and earth sciences students, I see the term pop up in scientific papers like every once in a while and it's used as. A form of thing in the WGN is made up of geologist who think in general terms and some claimed that they don't represent the scientific community as a whole, and in addition, the term is mostly used in Europe in America, and so there is a fear that it's becoming this western term and some aspects of non Western societies might be overlooked by it. But on the other hand, some say that it's a good thing that the term outgrowth routes. it's considered to be the single word that stands for all of humanity's interactions with the earth. The term sparks conversations that that's geology environmental and earth sciences. It considers local and global factors contemplates both the past, the present and the future, and so it's it's become this all encompassing term that includes a number of ideas, number of concepts, something that puts it apart from previous suggestions to renaming the current time period. As I mentioned earlier, another thing another pro is that the effect that this term has will probably be strengthened by formalizing it. Official support from the scientific community may raise public awareness Tamar aspects of our existence. There's more than just climate change which everyone's talking about today like we can just solve climate change in. We've done our our bit and let's go home. There's there's more than that. And well, this is why some scientists wanted to avoid sitting the starting point of the anthropic seen thousands of years ago because it might make it easier to live with the consequences of actions that took place in the distant past. Let's talk about The question should be formalised. Obviously, it's up to you to form your own opinion on the matter. But I think that this question sort of became this site issue to some people like the fact that the term has is already evident at least in the scientific world. Including the anthroposophic discussions helps raise questions about our existence and future challenges that we may face I. also think that even if it ends up not being a formal thing, it won't take back the effect that the term already has and I think people will still keep using it anyway and well I told you a bit about it and we talked about from. Let me tell you where the process of from allegation is today. We talked about. The wgn throw working group that are tasked with the job of basically advising the ICS on this decision. So in May of two, thousand, nineteen, the results of a binding vote that was taken by the members of the WG were released. They've published the results of the vote regarding two questions. The first one should encompassing be treated as a formal cronos graphic unit or basically should it be formalized and well, eighty eight percent were in favour. It's pretty good formalizing the term and the second question was basically should marker that signifies the anthropic seen be one of those suggested for the Mid Twentieth Century, and again, the answer is eight percent in favor. Now, everybody's thinking that the most probable marker for the start of the. Is the nuclear byproducts that have mentioned? Anyway the report which is available on their website also mentioned the. Working Group is in agreement that enough evidence has been collected dissentient frappuccino apart from other time periods. They've also agreed that the term has proven useful and well today. There are still discussions regarding the importance of formal geological term all in all, it seems that the Roberson Working Group are approving of the entraps in. It's important to remember that they'll pass their findings and results to the ICS to make a formal decision. They don't have the final say. Well, here are a few personal thoughts to kind of close with I. I liked him throughout the senior, what it stands for I. Think these are important subjects that need to come up, but despite that I can't help. But sometimes think that naming the time period after ourselves, you know it's a bit self-important. No one will know or judge it or anything. You know it's only us here. I don't think it's a good enough reason to be against the term, but it just feels weird I. wanted to mention that. I think that the fact that people are already using the term in scientific papers is a big factor in the. Working Groups decision to support the formalization like I mean if the term becomes just another word in the scientific lexicon, then it doesn't really matter if it's formal or not. It might be just easier to go along with it. And While last thing you know the term is concerned with global aspects of humanity's impact whatever the answer to these questions may be. These. CanNot be handled locally. We can't face them in some parts of the world has to be bigger than that. and basically, if you guys have any questions if you guys want to discuss anything further. GOPHERS take dinosaurs. For instance, like I'm not a dinosaur expert, but don't us was pretty dominant in the world right like when they're around that was sort of that will come in right? Definitely. Well. The difference between what Donald so is doing and what we're doing, what, why is sort of like the production of Kobben in carbon emissions and all this stuff with the water supply? Why is that seems to be unnatural, 'cause West, so the dominating the world. But, the dinosaurs was sort of running the house. But what they were doing was all sort of in line with nature like what sort of how we should of defining what's natural. WHAT'S UNNATURAL? Being the top of the food chain doesn't mean that you're not living in harmony with your with your environment. Take major predators from today and look at their predatory habits like basically they hunt and eight, just kind of what they need, and if you look at it closely, you can see that they usually hunt and kill like the sick or the old of each population. So basically. While animals are dying. That's not the worst thing that can happen. You know that basically also strengthens population of the hunted, which we don't do we kill until everything is extinct like we have basically evidence for people going out and just hunting things to the point of extinction in being proud of it that that doesn't happen nature. Well, his his thing. Right? We would lines, would you say it would be adapted for them, not to not to hunt everything of their spacey of their prey definitely because obviously if they did that, they probably wouldn't be around. So they just by the fact that there around that would be good indication. Indication that they know how to keep the prey going like Kate, they're capable also tacos. Yeah. Exactly. I think every every basic college of course will start with an example of that and that what constitutes nature it hits a balance. You know we're not hitting. We're not Taddei he balanced, but like we have this weeds predicament now where we don't have a balanced hit like we could try to do as little as we can to affect what night you would do without us. But obviously, if we pulled out in nature completely do something hype. But says something that we need, we need metal or something like that. I just grabbed all the metal on the world just feels like the consequences is just like meaningless. Thought, we just do something else. Like it doesn't. It feels like we're invincible. But the moment now because if we destroy the, who just destroy some other United It feels like we're in this, we'd. Phase of like, we've just broken free from this nature. Nine feels so bit. Yeah. You know. We hope we don't run into wall before we get of this planet tends why we need to solve climate change because what happens if we don't make it to Mars? I. Think it's called Fermi paradox. Have you heard about I? Think the paradox is talking about why we haven't met other intelligent life. Yeah. But it kind of one of the explanation is that every intelligent species of kind of every other civilizations. Ada. Fallen asleep at the wheel braking themselves up by probably nuclear or something that. There's this barrier that you can't pass because every time you try to pass it to you either fall asleep or or just kill yourself when I think about the Femi- Paradox, I've always thought why we don't see or something like that, and like the answer, the usually give would be just if the chances of two civilizations close to HFS. Sort of the same stage of development like say, not ten million years apart Bang on the same decade. Dan, it would be possible. But the chances that happening a very lar-. What's more likely is that disdain Haza civilizations around us for millions of years and now that use nanotechnology, they were tawny. there. Around us all the time, we wouldn't ever be out of sight because they like A. One hundred million years of like just. Intelligence above us. So maybe they are around us, but we we we're like a blind toddler looking for like. People in the dock. We just stupid. But like I never really thought about that. Might be able to like what you can get to find it very interesting. We were talking a little bit around this in our episode about las chance to say but. I think we all agree that the number of spacey's isn't that important because if they say fifty more types of bats there will still bats like the way we classify the way we classify them essentially life. We find that like, oh, one wings bit bigger than the other. We'll call this the wrong ringed battle something like. That doesn't increase the diversity or anything like that. It's not. It's not that important. Right? Do we agree it's it's not about the number. It's about what we lost. You can take it as a as a point of view of of the big picture of creating a sustainable lifestyle that will allow us to pay attention to our surrounding and. Because like everything, it's a steep slow. you start allowing yourself to extinct this species or another, and then you Kinda let go and another thing until things get too out of hand and then it's too late. So there's the first benefit of just you know having the discipline of creating a sustainable lifestyle and that doesn't take into attention any any specific species? So that's number one. I think point number two is that as much as we're smart and great, and definitely the dominant species on the planet, we can't create life out of nothing and we have this specimens of things that developed for. Millions of years, and it's like burning books like at the end of the last chance to see. Let's pretty much what the story also says that you kind of burning books with the knowledge of the world at least. It doesn't matter if you if you lost thirty percent or fifty percent or seventy percent, the number doesn't really coming to play here. It's. It's mostly about the way that you live a feel like I grey like when people say something should be sustainable, it's like. Automatically just wonder agree, but I'm just trying to sort it out of my head, right? While I'm trying to figure the what the ultimate goal is like the overreaching goals. So my go would basically be so everyone has their earned consciousness. You'd say like not. When old dipping into the same consciousness, soul everyone has their end. So the point of view I'm not sharing with a non experience when he's experiencing, right? So ever has unique one. What I would. Say would be my goal would be to maximize the amount of consciousness, which is good. So like that sounds very broad, but for instance. I would say. You don't WanNa, have a planet which is just full of like chicken which just going to make grinder free day. You wouldn't want ten million because they had lives would be wouldn't be net benefit. It would be a net loss for them. What if you had the option, you wouldn't want to be a chicken, right? You WanNa like say you can live the life of a lady bug. And then you can step out you're like talking to the universe. And it says, would you like to be a lady bug and you say, yes, like I would rather be a lady bug not exist. Then I'd say it would be good to have more of that Sir essentially like to put it down to like a simple calculus. Always, site would be how Marle Gd to improve lives not just not just the ones that aren't good. Of course, like lives it or any good. We should make better, but also lives it on. Good. We should. Try to improve them, and if we can't then may be, it would be as an desert argument to me. Mehta's to whether maybe we should extinguish like a small sort of branch of animals something, which is going to die anyway of something over a long period time. But like for me the goal just to have the most animals, we could which which only. Really great lives like just if someone gave the option you'd sat won't be every single one of these animals I'd love to live any of those lives that would be what you want, which is essentially what we do humans. will say like population growth is great as long as we can feed everyone. Having a good time. So I'm just trying to expanding that to everything will edibles essentially, but not including plants, no including like dash that don't give a shit. Town, get you don't. You don't get the thing. You don't get the plant thing. No, not at all, like I think plants and you know the things that live in dirt are just as important will to may not important like if we could just get rid of old plans, but it would have no. Okay. Yeah. But we can't. We can't. That's the that's the thing we can't. But hypoth- I'll give you a thought experiment right so like you have to go with me on this We, can plants. and. All Topsoil all that stuff you love. But? It has no effect on conscious experience. So essentially like no one gets happier, but no one gets Sata. Nothing. Is that. Like I, I'm not sure what you're going with with this because I'm trying to sort out my. It feels like I'm trying to shift you, but I'm really trying to like find out where I am. Because like I'm thinking like. What we need to do is spacey and stuff like that. But I think with the Lady Bug I think the best life for the Lady Bug? Would it be alive that? No, one would interfere with because it evolved to live where it lives. It needs has the old to make the best out of its specific situation. So if we try to I don't know like feed it. Yet yeah, that's a good point. I like that point. How about this argument? Evolution has been playing a role since precarious, right? Yeah. So for instance, like isn't suited to give you a good time might evolution wasn't on? To Netflix, Netflix, just arise naturally. NETFLIX's survive. Wet Adaptation. Me On that, but his his thing, right? Like all these animals have learned to survive. Are Amelean much longer than the drop in the water. Right. Then if we interfere with that, then wear interfering with their way of life essentially right and wearing the one basic affecting seven, million, nine, hundred, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, nine, it feels. Like. The one person he walks into a party and annoys everything like disturbs music, terrible everything, right. I. Actually kind of agree with that after saying it but. Is there any argument which she could say would, which would be humans have such a broad consciousness like we can experience so much more than some animals like. How. Much of a life of fish really has united like a fish con experience like podcasts like hot experience movies and stuff like. That we know of. That we know of, that's the thing because you can never be one hundred percent, sure could be doing wild shit, but there is some argument to say, well, we are. We are important like humans a definitely important like because without humans this. Monopoly. There's no like. It's monopoly. Play Clyde a pretty good match this often some. But you go to this humans have some important light. We can't step away. Completely, we can't sort of fade into the background. Is this one it? Couldn't happen. But to light, it would just be such a shame if we couldn't go on. Do interesting things that we couldn't make odd and all this stuff. Like what's the ideal amount like? Do we WANNA ninety percent will do WANNA like? have out finger on the pulse, like what sort of analogy would you draw? Well, let me just say I'm totally in humanities side and I don't think like you know that we're not important or we're as important as any other fish in you know we should extinct ourselves before we extinct everything else. I, think we should look out for humanity. You know look forward and plan ahead to make the best world. For us as well. So I'm not saying we should stop existing. I'm not saying we should stop everything we're doing and let nature sort itself out. Everyone's going to want to keep living their best life, but I think we have to change the way. We think we see the world, we see ourselves as a part of it. You know to be a part of it. We're not above it. You think we should think about our effect on animals and they allowed so little bit more than what we are. Is. An, easy way to set my point is we should keep looking out for our best interests, but we have to keep in mind that we. are also affecting everything else around us. You know which which isn't a good thing I. Don't think we should affect anything around us for the better or for worse we should. You know do the best for us in a way that that affects the least amount of other external factors which we can do like we can provide energy for the world. I. Like `electricity using solar power which. Is, much, less detriment to the world than burning coal. We can provide food and everything maybe not today, but we can develop methods to provide food that doesn't require habitat degradation. We could we maybe we couldn't two hundred years ago, but things are changing and what we know is changing. Okay, I, agree with you actually everything up until you said, we shouldn't affect anything for the better like. Would there be some examples where it might be beneficial for us to sort of changing ecological system. I, don't know like I I don't think. So though because all of these systems, the rainforests coral reefs everything is has developed without us. One hundred percent agree when it comes to rain forest incorporates. But what about like how we keep track of some animals in the wild like? So some animals are just naturally like I would like to. Optimistically, we haven't radic, not every. Extinction event is because of us, what happens if an animal sort of going extinct and we could find a way? To, help them thrive. What about maybe the fact that it goes extinct is what's right in nature? You know it's it's what keeps the balance in nature. It's bigger than that species that is very Marcus Aurelius of you well, Mike You. I. Think another another interesting question is. If you do believe in some like what you mentioned before about. Fish has consciousness or what is your opinion about suffering and living things. Things that suffer like, is it a order to save panders from being extinct that you make their their individual life miserable? The to me, it's a definite nor you would let the species extinct in order to not make an individual tend to suffer hundred percent. If feels like very could get combative, but I'm feeling like ninety, five to ninety, nine percent of this is just bang on. and. The one percents Great. I'm just trying to figure out like if I'm confused or if there's like another angle like me, it bashes into ethics in a way, which is sort of interesting. I'm just like have you guys had the maximize on a tour? No. Damn, after explain it now. So basically the system, this is the robot essentially, which is just has one go to maximize type eclipse. So it's it's sort of like a display pin thing where we would've bought and we say, can you create So it should have like quite a fundraiser goes around business collects bit rubbish and stuff that way not using and stuff in because it can convert atoms inter anything at once that can jus-. Crater takes a piece of paper and then it just goes up now a metal in it becomes a paper clip. Right. But eventually it runs out of things that we're not using. Zoom Mac book that could make one, thousand, three, hundred paperclips. Let's just make it and go. It's my laptop. So. So capes. Making laptops. Sorry cates, making head clips at a laptops, and then suddenly like it runs out of everything and left is us. So it turns out bodies into payslips. So, we sort of regret what it has become an. It's literally just destroying kids in women and children and everything just to create more paperclips for us but my. What the reason I bring it off his kids like I. Feel like a bit of a paper clip maximize, but I'm just consciousness maximize. So all I want is good consciousness. 'cause obviously, you can have a bad life. Any good life to me assistant win and anything else that comes behind it is just doesn't concern me too much as long as it's more people more animals, they're happy. So that's why I don't really care about plants. However, is like the second step where I I, agree. that. The ecology. So important and understanding they systems. is so important and understanding more so than just stepping away but knowing what what an input would actually output in and everything. that. I. Think it's best interest. Even, if we are paper could maximize of consciousness, than San, best interest to. Base stewards of the environment. Can I just wanted to say that you know as an ecology environmental sciences, students it. It's just amazing. How far away we are from really understanding these systems. You know you kinda start by thinking. We know so much. We know all the basics need to fill gaps in than we're there but. It's so much bigger than us so much like, I'm not saying that we won't ever be able to understand them, but at the moment where so far away from really knowing what's going on out there while he's another argument, right? Maybe my loss one. As, much as I say I want to increase this consciousness, right? Maybe, it's Darwinian to not think about maybe it's sexually advantageous to. The world. To actually? Care about plants like it might actually be better off for people to care about plants because think about one, hundred, million years from now, we might not be around if we just WANNA say. Make everyone fat and happy. Maybe it is. Maybe it's better for us in lung run. We see. That maybe it's actually better if we care about. How. Much stuff there is in the rainforest. Maybe, just maybe it is actually important. For instance, take take some religions. Right? Religions. Donate pork, right? Many many years ago before there was like. Fridges and stuff that was important. Like may the the reasoning for it? Monty. Bane true might not obtain but. Super Important. So they were playing on side. And now they're doing well because I actually avoid a poke united. It was actually, it was actually a survival adoption to be aiding mate that could. Kill you. What happens if what happens if almost like a religious sense? Maybe where? We need to protect the environment illnesses like Gospel and. Even though it doesn't seem might we don't say the benefit of it now? Maybe in five, hundred, million years, maybe we'll be. Something that saved us and maybe in five hundred, million years, we can say, well, you can eat pork again, guys way way we found refrigerators credited them and stuff, but maybe in five or million years again within waking, we'll do what you want to the environment. We got a little controlled by and stuff. So whatever you do just like bounce back like a transplant. So maybe this is something we need to do. Maybe we need to play it on the side I. Think it's an interesting comparison because there's definitely a place where Where what we do now is because we lack understand yeah. There the understanding that technology to to prevent the worst sides of it I think I read somewhere that that not eating pork was very political at that time or something like that. But you know there's like there is a lot of. Duties I guess in in Judaism regarding, you have to wash your hands before every meal. That's like something that went way way before, and there's like this whole ritual ritual where you say this little prayer I think or something like that, and you know that kind of makes a lot of sense just imagine that you're leaving in in a time where. It's not sure that you have. So but but you do wash your hands before every meal and I think also after going to the bathroom and that's really beneficial. They didn't understand why. But they saw it had good effects over the community. So it's something that. Took, and went on forward. Think, it's probably will be the same regarding. Our duties regarding the eco-system, but but the main. Differentiator here is that it's for a much longer run because when you wash your hands. The community in that lifetime concede that there's less mortality over some certain diseases or or or some illness drop. But regarding the eco-system, it's kind of like maintaining the meat maintaining something that's already existing. It's not creating something new and it's not necessarily something that will your children want necessarily will experience if you if you want to it, but even if we don't take this topic too much. We take too much seriously. Our children were probably still have forest to go to but. We, we kind of need to play this thing. In the long run and I think it's very interesting because it's like the different stage of our of our society. Maturity because as you get more mature, you need to start thinking more ahead. You know as a kid, you just one eight candy right and then as a as a mature person stand, well I. do I still onto it just candy by the way, I just ate a lot of candy in. About but like normal adults, what they do is try not to eat so much candy because they. Can See ahead and they have foresight. Yeah, and you know that's that's pretty much regarding everything, but it's still. You know it's very individual driven and as a society want to extinct everything. But now we have the foresight to see how bad it would be. Yeah, and also we need to kind of think. Is a society I think it's harder than it sounds because like you're saying for ages we've been thinking as as a society, we created states we created. You know people and nations. But? There's something more global that that we need to. Take into account here and I think Dara. sprouts of there's all the logical conventions that a lot of countries joined to. There's the Paris agreement I think that the US. Just left or something. And again that it kind of seems that we're going in. The right direction of. Finding their responsibility. I by the way, I'm not sure regarding the the previous question. No. In order to preserve a species, maybe it is worth to harm an individual happiness. I think there's also the example that you gave with. The maximize a year. That's a cool one. I never heard about it before. I, think I I, can I heard about it? As the concept of of infinite repetition like in order to to kind understand something you need to to repeat it until until infinity and see and see what you think about it then but I think it's just. You, know I read some book that they say, our look at the French Revolution. It's all very romantic and everything. But if you'll have if you had to do it all the time, then it's pretty horrible. It's not something that is sustainable. It's a bad think, but that's kind of like. Reducing things to? Do, very act and kind of forgetting everything around it and I, think that's the point here because. There are certain conditions where where you need to kind of be mature and look ahead and try to understand what's the greater good here in doesn't necessarily means that this is now that this is this is not the norm that you repeat. Until Infinity, you want make everyone's suffering order to to save a species, but you may. You may want to keep that panda in a cage order to for children to to be able to go back to the wild, and that's a good point. It's sort of how I feel like this is the j w inmate but I kinda feel like. The environment is how I feel about companies. So I really don't care about companies because companies on anyone. No one needs a company but companies. A made up of people so like. This employees SIA is is the customers and stuff I want the company to work as long as it's functioning to people, right? And if it's not I, don't care about the company whereas with the environment if the environment and ecology and the systems. saving the animals than I wanNA preserve it. But if there's something that's not going, right. Then I think we should feel. So it's really not the environment that I'm concerned with is just ever in the environment and I think right now, we don't have the wisdom to mess with it 'cause whatever we do seems to homage. So maybe it's should be collective wisdom that we should study it for a million years and then maybe press a button. I agree. But I think there's this I I think disagree with something very specific that nature or or the environment is company, but it's a company that you you are working in will always work in your part of that company. All kinds of companies, right? There's Google Amazon, there's apple and you know to each its own like I don't really care what what will happen to them unless I work at that company or I have stocks in that company, and then I started to really care about what's going on there. So you're saying we're all in the same company. In this situation, we're not individuals that live alongside the environment where individuals within the environment Yeah. That's a good point, and because of that, you will always have to care what what's happening here and you know it's not. It's not like. Losing your job and finding a new one like I guess we can. We can wally this thing and kind of move to A. Spaceship and get fat on on floating boats on flooding chairs. Yeah. That sounds really cool. As I always say with people that are given me I. Agree with that. Guy. But until then and even then will probably we want want to lose this job. One of the things that I always liked about Scifi movies is that it seems that no matter how our it seems that the human race has kinda gone everywhere to all parts of the galaxy n beyond like the Earth remains its capital, right? It's it's the home that everyone kind of always talk about and and mention as. The cradle of humanity. Yeah. It's. It's kind of like a special place and it always will be you know even when we'll find these solutions and I think. It will be a good call not to completely destroy it. Let's play it on the side, Mike? Let's not destroy ourselves just just in case. Well, let me ask you guys. Would you vote in favor of officializing than throw passing? Then I would end the main reason without understanding Ola geology behind it is that once you coined the Tim Dan never think sort of followers you learn like it. Just it's just one of those things like as soon as they they were talking about quantum gravity. Then all of sudden, all the books come out about it. So it's It's one of those things where I. Think. Sometimes, you need a bit of branding just to be out of kick started. My initial tendency was was towards no, because like it's still really early to say, but I of agree with Peter I think there's A. Specific date like like actual benefit for these times to kind of calling it and be able to reference it. For. Different topics, I. Think if we coinate too early and then we do all this research and stuff in a million years later, Solheim. No, it's going to care anyway that we named it like. Five. But I think it will do more. Good than harm. Yeah. That's where I stand like I. said, it seems a little bit south important it's way early to call this age the. But I think it has a good effect to it, and basically that's That's what we need, and also it's it's being used today and I said a lot in papers and every time I see it I. Think they're they're using it and it's effective. It does the trick or what do you think it's a self portrait or or is, why is it bad because you know we're we're kind of important I think. Yeah. Like I said, it's just a minor thing. It's nothing against formalizing the term, but it's just funny to name like the entire time period after humanity. You know like it's like saying we've noticed that we're destroying everything. So let's have a party. Just feels kind of funny. I'm not saying it's. It's not a knock against the anthropoid. You look at it actually because like sometimes you can think about is like it's putting the blame solely on us like it's not like the anthrax on those bloody barbarianism scenes like. But. But So yeah, it is putting the buying in us but it again. If, the barbarians made at the anthropoid saying we'd be pissed that'd be. I can totally see someone who doesn't really understand the science thinking Oh wear this time period that humanity period, the anthropic fucking where. Everything was Shit until humans. Yeah. Cool. So. I. Think this has been our first sight Quist I duNNo. Maybe we'll do more I have one in Plan I. Think Peter Does as well. I, have one in in protest. It's a, it's a fun format. Yeah. Absolutely. Fantastic job. Thank you someone else actually, let me tell you where I like how I started reading about this. Last year or maybe two years ago. I needed something to fill my time with you know I like I was really enjoying when I was in college like learning a lot of things. But I. Kind of felt like I wanted you know choose what? I'm learning, use my mind for something that specifically interests me. So back, then I started writing this blog where like each each blog post was basically an article I chose something I was interested in research it until I felt like I knew enough about it to explain it, and then a wrote about it like a two thousand word article and when I started in the Masters Degree when I started university last year like I. I found that I don't have enough time and enough capacity in my mind to do both the thesis I'm working on the blog. So I stopped doing it and the last article I was working on, was this the enthralling I was already kind of in the late stages of writing the article I've done all the research I've started writing everything blake i. then kind of stopped doing it. So when we talked about doing the side quests, I thought, I, already have a subject researched and like I found it extremely interesting back then and I wanted to you know put it out there. Now, I have the chance. You know now I, it's it's a bit of a Moan of chloroform call. And it's something that was sitting on for a while now. Yeah. Really. Good. Thank you. Guys releasing for sure I actually think that this whole concept of side quests that could be like a podcast of its own. You know I think it's super interesting to every time like like he did in the blog and what you did now, grab this topic research the hell out of it, and just bring the interesting facts and create a discussion around it. That's cool. Yeah. I totally agree totally agree you've set a high bar. Oh. That's what I meant to. Know, honestly like I'm working on another one, which won't be half as deep like the next one I'm doing is about a video game. So it's going in a different direction altogether. So, how how frequent are we GONNA? Are we going to do this? Well, the way I, see it, I'm I'm enjoying working on it in the background like a work on this, the therapist in one I'd give it like thirty minutes a day for the last month or so, and that's you know after I've done all the research and everything. So like for the next one, I think I'm GONNA. Read about to twenty, thirty, forty minutes a day and when it's done. I'll tell you guys in. We will record the episodes recall. I. Think I think. I've got one ready, and we can also having gone ready I'm planning it. Now, I've switched my topic a little bit selling more Lotte but I am I'm just trying to work out how to put together by with the technology and. How I'm going to split up segments little bit. But this is this was really good one to muddle and the way I said if we do one every few months there'll be perfect route every couple of three or four months. I think also have one that's about seventy percent ready. I did it that my? And my job like lecture about incriptions. That's really cool on trying to make twenty twenty year of sort of lending a little bit more about tech. So that's why I went on that ran tobacco. Google. Stuff. So I'll be very interested in that encryption. Yeah. I'll look into, maybe I can bring it sooner than later. Awesome. Awesome kill. In our next episode, we're going to be watching the TV series firefly in the accompanying feature film serenity. It's the first TV show that we're going to be discussing on this podcast, which is pretty cool I. Think this is a very highly regarded thing amongst you know the Geeks, it's a cult following. DEF-. Definitely. It was created by just Sweden who? He also did buffy the vampire slayer, Dr, horrible Singalong blog. He worked with Marvel and some comics. If I'm not mistaken, he did the first two vendors movies. He did the avengers in two, thousand twelve and in Twenty fifteen, twenty, fifteen didn't get amazing reviews, but I think most people will agree that the of engines might be one of the best films in the franchise. So that's that's definitely how I had him I. Think he also worked on the Justice League movie. Controversial. But yeah, there's a bit of a disagreement about how much he worked on it. They say twenty percent but table think he did a bit more but. Yeah, oh. That's interesting. Discussion for another time. Oh. Anyway, the main characters in firefly are played by Nathan Fillion Gina Torres to take in Marina Beck Arena, which is, you know it's it's a bunch of like familiar faces and Larry Very endearing people very, very fun actors. In, the series had one season of fourteen episodes. I think in two, thousand and two. At that point, it got cancelled. It was kind of left with a few unfinished plotlines. So they then made the movie serenity that came out in two thousand and five, which is supposed to close the story enclosed everything up us. Good I didn't know that did the movie, but I'm like. Oh Well a few years back. I had a quite a few friends had just adored firefly and serenity like the never stop talking about it. So we had this kind of a slumber party kind of thing that we watch take most of the TV show I. think he wants like eight or nine episodes. You know I, remember it was kind of fun in different. Belie was wasn't paying too much attention. Attention to it. You know I had a bunch of friends around me and everyone's talking and eating pizza and stuff, and then I watched the rest on my own like I don't remember too much from it. You know I wasn't too much into it in any way since then my girlfriend and I have been talking about watching the movie serenity, but I don't really remember anything from the show. So. Here's an opportunity to watch it again. Now, pay some attention to it and well enjoy the whole thing caught cannot way. Yeah. I. Think. It's GonNa be fun. So thank you. Peter, and thank you for stink. True to our goal, and thank you the listeners at for helping. US along the latest stage of our quest. We. Hope to join us again next episode, and we'll talk to us. So you're. Through. High Jedi, the host of its motor up north. He curious about mattress north of England. This podcast is definitely Athletes in various parts of the north of England I went to college in the shadows Ottawa more. When Myra Hindley and Ian Brady buried does five innocent children I've worked in the city of Leeds where the repair targeted his victims of the nineteen seventies knowing how geographically close being these crimes, mindy curious, and that curiosity the can this podcast. However, my main hope is to help you see the person not victim.

Holocene Australia Youtube Geologist Mariana Trench Caribbean Paul Crutzen Nobel Allison e Buck Hollis Netflix wgn Hamad ventures Earth US Antarctica
The Democracy of Suffering: Todd Dufresne

Ideas

55:24 min | 10 months ago

The Democracy of Suffering: Todd Dufresne

"Feeling stir crazy from self isolating with acorn. Tv experienced the British countryside or Australian outback without leaving the house hailed a glorious streaming service by the Hollywood reporter. Acorn TV is a must for crime drama and mystery enthusiasts for fans of broad church. You'll love David tennant's newest project dead waterfowl coming in April this series centers around a Scottish community torn apart by a dark tragedy and even darker secrets acorn. Tv is commercial free available on all your devices visit sign up dot acorn DOT TV and use code CBC FOR AN EXTENDED. Thirty Day free trial acorn TV World Class TV from Britain and beyond this is a CBC podcast. It's Wednesday April eighth and this is ideas. Scientists divide up the Earth's geological history into eras periods and epochs according to when they consider great events. Have fundamentally changed our planet. We've all heard of the Jurassic period when dinosaurs roamed the earth and maybe the Pleistocene epoch the two million year long age of the glaciers then came the Holocene from the last great Ice Age until the present a great twelve thousand year leap forward in human habitation of the year. And now we're told we may have already entered a new epoch. The answer proceed in which human activity is the dominant influence on the earth on its climate and the environment with potentially catastrophic results. The experiences of widespread suffering is going to wake people up. This hope. This is a last hope. So we're going to have catastrophe. After catastrophe we're going to have people actually possibly able to agree upon new ways of organizing social and political parts of our society. And that means we have a new world did suits the new physical world. Todd defraying teaches philosophy at lake head university in Thunder Bay Ontario in two Thousand Nineteen. He published the democracy of suffering life on the edge of catastrophe philosophy in the anthropology on the one hand. It's a smart and witty account of the issues that face us in dealing with climate change and the unchecked growth helped fueled a journey into the time of human change on the other hand. It's an urgent call to arms for thinkers philosophers and all of us to come up with new ways of understanding what we've been doing wrong and new ways of thinking about how to live in the future. When taught defraying titled His Book The Democracy of suffering what he meant was suffering is democratic. If and or when the planet Burns up it's simply won't matter if you're rich or poor brown or white. Today's episode of ideas is a conversation. I had with todd defraigne about all this. Our Program is called the democracy of suffering. So I thought maybe we just start at the beginning. And ask you why we call what we're living. In now the anthroposophic the answer proceed comes out of geological discourse and Geologist Proposed that really. What's what's what's describing is A situation where the impact of human beings can be felt around the world at the geological level. So that's from plastics micro-plastics which are everywhere in the world including in the Arctic ice for example of course throughout the oceans But also things like radiation and other evidence of human beings existing The idea is that We so stamped. The Earth itself with these human products these artifacts of human civilization that at some point in the future somebody look back and see it in the sediment itself so In a way it's controversial because the layers of time recorded geologically are usually thicker and they record they reflect a period of time much longer than the period of time that reflects our civilization. So that's I think partly why It hasn't been decided yet but among social scientists in humanities people like myself I think it's kind of settled because it's a way of talking about some new era that we seem to have come into and do you have a sense an agreed upon starting point for this era. While there's a Lotta different theories as to win. It STARTS RATE. From the first time we started using fire which creates carbon pollution up to including the great acceleration most recently. And that's usually people think of as the time of sped up civilization. When do you take a test? Started for me I dated to the late nineteen sixties with the Apollo missions and the taking of two famous photographs. Which are the blue marble and the Earth? Rice earthrights appeared on my geography textbook in grade. Nine to reproduce yeah and so is used everywhere and it kind of signals for me and I think a lot of people kind of donning environmental consciousness sell for me. The anthropoid scene is a geological designation but. I'm not so much interested in that. I'm interested in the anthropoids. Seen condition which the condition of living in the anthropology. And so for me. That's what really Modern environmentalism after nineteen sixty. Eight means to me The shift to a different way of being thinking about the world that we live in announced kind of by these Apollo graphs. Let's talk about. The answer pristine condition. One of the biggest questions. You pose right off. The BAT is how human subjects not the object world today in a world. Where I you know we're human created global warming exists in other words. Who are we today in the age of catastrophic climate change the time of the anthropogenic condition? I know that there are a lot of answers to that. And we'll get to some of those anyway. But what's the core of the answer to that question? It's a difficult question. I think you know the simplest way of thinking about it for me is that we have moved out of an era known geologically as the Holocene and in the Holocene we experienced nature in a way as a given condition The promoted life as we know it life we know it Especially in the West with a the wealth that we've experienced especially in the last one hundred fifty two hundred years has some Made it almost invisible to us. Nature has become invisible to us. This is a great privilege of the West and what I think the anthrax scene has done for us and the reason why I think it's such a an interesting term is it has made us aware once again of the importance of the external world in other words we are experiencing a catastrophic weather events. That reminds us that we are just human beings living with the world or living with their as I say the end. Of course we're we're we're reminded that we're earthlings And in some ways In the last hundred years with a great wealth in the West we've forgotten we've become urbanites example but even urbanites will be impacted by Extreme weather events and So you know kind of general thesis that I have a very basic and simple idea I think is that the anther pristine Allows us to see in a way our our natural world in office striking fashion and it means that we have to reassess not only the recent past but the kind of people in the kind of world that we are about to inherit which is a world that's completely different than than the world we knew it which is defined by the Halsey. You describe it by saying that being human now coincides with time that that the answer is time of human change. What do you mean yeah? That's that's that's a hard one. The time of Of the Holocene is roughly twelve thousand years and what happens in the anthropology and all of a sudden this condition has changed and I think much of confusion. That's happening with us today. Is that much of the resistance to even climate change and the notion of the anthropoid scene is to realize that we are newly created The world is different to us. And how we navigate ourselves in this world is is a totally new matter for us to to to think to think through the problems of that it makes us all an a loose way philosophically conscious of our place in the world the way that we are when we face our own deaths for example In the deaths of people around us I think the idea is that The concrete experiences of climate change are actually a waking us up to this new to this new world. Not sure if that guest. Here's what I think. The Mike my question is is what we said at the beginning which is that we have had a bigger role in what the world is now than we've ever had before yes. It is simply amazing. I mean sometimes we'll say it's impossible to the to human beings get could create these these changes some classic deniers will say that it's impossible for human beings that are so small in the world to create such a giant change But not only have. We made a giant change. But we've actually done the majority of that change in the last thirty or forty years. That is stunning. If you take it from the post World War period it's more like eighty five percent of all carbon emissions come from that period so this is why we don't really WanNa talk about the origin of the anthropoid seen the first fires created by human beings. You really want to talk about it in the post industrial period but not even really in the post industrial talk about in the post World War Two period. Sometimes we talk about that as the era of postmodernism but the main thing is to realize we are living in a world that has been impacted by. Our activity are endless activity in his book. Democracy OF SUFFERING TODD refrained proposes a list of thirteen major features of the anther pristine condition such as the rise in social inequality the return of existential angst and a revolutionary shift in human consciousness. We talked about some of those markers. During our conversation beginning with number one the answer pristine condition. He writes is a time of chaos and unpredictability were the frequency of Black Swan. Events undermines the meaning of normalcy common sense and order. Well in some ways. The discussion of chaos and unpredictability and a kind of narrow way is just pointing out the fact that things that we could understand in the past based on living in a world that is known to science in the Holocene allows for prediction and understanding. How the world's GonNa work doesn't really prepare us for all of the Black Swan events which seemed to find every life. Now let me. Black Swan events are no longer black. Swan events are they. What what what examples would there be done but the weather there are so many weather events that are once in one hundred year sort of events that happen every four or five or six years And often happened to same areas over. You know over and over again that we clearly cannot assume that the future is going to look like the past. So that's why it's unpredictable. And that's why in fact it makes science so difficult. Because how are YOU GONNA? Model for things that Don't follow the rules. Would you mean the rules while I mean the rules of the Holocene? We don't live in the Holocene anymore. The planet's not acting the way it's supposed to act it's acting erratically indifferently. That's why I think some ways. The we used to go global warming that we talk about climate change but I like the term global weirding. Somebody came up with. I think if somebody from Winnipeg term somebody from Winnipeg. I think it's a good term and kind of I think puts duress some of the concerns that people have about whether it's warm or cold out you know. Obviously sometimes we're going to have cold events as well. Global weirding means that we'RE GONNA HAVE EVENTS. That don't seem to have a precedent So for example Hurricane Harvey dumped something like a nineteen trillion gallons of water in about five days that was in Houston credible. That leaves thirty thousand people homeless. That kind of event doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen at the same year. I believe there was over a million people in Mumbai. That were made homeless. We have record break events like that happening all the time. Of course. We have the recent events of Australia with giant fires. Today I woke up and I saw on my facebook feed that New Zealand. It's not such a big deal as thirty five to forty degrees Celsius but it is a big deal that the ocean around the Northern Ireland is twenty degrees Celsius. That's a lot of black swans. The water in an ocean is twenty degrees Celsius. That's really warm. That's lake warm these kinds of events. make huge impacts on the world. We live in and and again One could say that in a way they're unpredictable and then once they happen we have to wait and see what kind of impacts are gonNA come from them. You say that that what should come from them is a different way of assessing our world. I in that for example were looking to scientists to to get this kind of data information. But you're saying that science needs to step up that it's increasingly impotent. In the face of of this unpredictability that it needs to turn more to analysis and less data. Yeah it's Y- one one of the real problems I think is that we many of us at least simply accept the facts of science. We know there's human generated climate change and as I point out the people that don't care. We should stop worrying about their carelessness. Whine. What's the point of worrying about the people that don't understand what's happening before us. You mean climate tonight climate deniers. I mean we have. We have a situation where we need to move ahead and start thinking about what we're going to do and the thinking about we're going to do is beyond the purview of scientists one of the problem with scientists that they are generally not advocates. They're not necessarily politically active while that has changed with climate change. Because it's four scientist actually become more and more advocates so that's amazing But they can't do this alone and the problem is of course. They have certain norms of objectivity that they don't like to set aside in order to do that. While that means the rest of US need to step up including people like me and the social humanities and then regular people in the world to actually help bring about the changes to make the world a more hospitable place this you can't leave this all to scientists. I guess what while I'm trying to say? The scientists have already demonstrated the facts of climate change. Now we're experiencing the facts of climate change. Well what next need to do? It seems to me we need to actually do something about it now. It may seem like talking on our radio. Program is not one of those things but I think it is one of those things and I think going on marches in letting your elected officials know that you care about. Climate change is one of those things and so on. You say that this is about time for life on the planet but it's actually a good time for philosophy. What clues do you have about? What a new philosophy might look like and again. That's another big question. What what makes me think well? Hey maybe we're on on the path to some new way of thinking it's it's the hardest kind of question for me. I did something that annoys people. Sometimes I went back to play a little bit here and there reason I went back to play Tony talkable content people like niches that these people are actually interested in their own time. They're interested in issues of their own time. Plato's interested in cosmopolitan Athens. He's interested in the problems of of his time as opposed to looking backward as opposed to looking backwards looking. He's looking at the problems of his time and what we could do to think about things differently. Or how we could organise. Organize ourselves differently So we looked in the history of philosophy at that people that sometimes look at imagine a world differently And what I'm trying to argue is that Floss means to reorient itself in a way toward the future. Not simply look at the past the passionate as kind of instructor of the future and to try to imagine the world differently and one that according to the principles of survival including the survival of civilization itself. How provocative is that in your field scarred. The past. Look for for as a as a well since I gave you three examples. You Know Plato. And Kant both are looking towards their examining their time and looking toward the future looking at what isn't lightman. And what was unfolding in his own time and it becomes a influential person for the American of French revolutions. Revolutions are not nothing. This is something that changes the world through ideas so there are a lot of philosophers that have that have looked forward some philosophers however look to the to the past in my view. They tend to look to the past. In order to justify the present that usually means justifying power status quo of a given time the status quo Var. Given time is not acceptable is not going to help in a future. That is so changing so I mean in the sense philosophers. I think she'd have more in common with a Plato which is looking forward to a future. That's quite different or two novelists or people in science fiction who imagined the world differently. I mean you want to know what's going to happen tomorrow. Ask people that use imagination for a living talked to Hollywood. Even if they get it wrong half the time how do they? How do they imagine the future? We need to start thinking seriously. What the future and thinking about in a way that's different from simply rationalizing existing status quo. So we need to think about the kind of future we want and if we think what kind of future we want. We need to try to take steps to make it happen for me. I think it's important to to say. Why are we looking at somebody in the past? And what does it have to say to us today about our time? One thing that differentiates thinking about all this now with the past is that It's a theme. That kinda defines the anthropology and as you said earlier is that we are the problem. So what is the challenge that this poses in in coming up with a new way of thinking about the world in which we live today so obviously the case that It's the way we've organized our lives in the West. That has caused this problem. But I mean we're we're talking about human nature We're talking about is that given or is it constructed. These are big questions that are always asked and humanities and social science departments nine only client for example wants to make sure that She questions this presumption among conservatives that we are born a certain way and We are individualistic and aggressive and competitive on alternative view would be that. We're actually cooperative and Collective minded based on. Maybe let's just say love and empathy the Popa notices that we have this globalization of indifference in the world and I suggest maybe through suffering experienced worldwide. We'd have something like the globalization of of empathy. I see that there's other people that have done work in that and I since taking a closer look at that because it seems like that's something I can hang onto for something a little bit more positive or optimistic about the future and what I've come to realize I think in some ways. Thanks to a good book by an author named Rebecca Solnit. It's called I think it's called Paradise built in. Hell two thousand nine. You know we actually see and disastrous. People are awesome. People are amazing and disasters. You know the idea that human beings are naturally competitive and aggressive is undone in the face of disaster. People are good. People don't always riot. People often help each other. They often strangers. People often work with Others through compassion and empathy. And I think you know. This is what Soulmates argument is that every time she looks at different Great disasters in history. You see people working together more often than not but are you holding onto that out of conviction or just out of help You know what I think. I think it's it's more than a conviction. I think it's actually false that it's true in some sense simple sense. Humans are the problem. We did this but I think that human beings are human nature something that is a plaything of other forces. Marxists would say play thing of of the economy. The economy is built to promote aggressively and competition. Therefore we think that we are naturally aggressive and competitive. And I think that's convincing in some ways. I agree that human nature is not simply given. If it's not given that means it could change and I think that maybe what Solnit a saying here is that when you have a disaster all the all the infrastructure everything fails around you. People actually are good. I'm willing to go far and say that maybe we're not given towards any any sort of necessary aggression we're actually given towards helping each other but it needs. We need a push. Sometimes kind of what I'm talking about. The democracy of suffering is that climate change is possibly that kind of push kind of disaster. That kind of catastrophe that actually could make us rethink of three think ourselves as compassionate `collectivities that are oriented towards life and existence. Instead of just you know things. You're listening to ideas on. Cbc Radio One in Canada across North America on Sirius. Xm In Australia on our end and around the world at CBC DOT CA slash ideas. I'm high AMDAHL. Brian Goldman if you haven't heard my new podcast the dose. This is the perfect time to subscribe each week. We answer your most pressing health related questions and right. Now we know you're grappling with Kobe. Nineteen on those we bring in top experts to answer your questions about the corona virus and pose some of our own. Get the latest evidence in a way. That's easy to understand by subscribing to the dose. It's your guide to getting through this difficult time. You can find the dose wherever you get your podcasts. On One scientist has said we're basically the crew of a largest spaceship and we've been interfering with the way it functions without really knowing what we're doing we're playing with fire and we've been reckless today on ideas a conversation about what we've done to the planet where we're probably headed into how to rethink what our responsibility is to the planet and how all impact what it means to be. Human philosophers. It turns out are playing a major role in all this rethinking. Philosophers like dog defraigne. This episode takes the title of his latest book. The democracy of suffering in his list of the thirteen features of what he calls the anthropology and condition philosopher todd refrains fourth feature is quote the flaming out of Marxism as a viable guide to the actually existing present and its future to our experiences of life. In our time the task of the present age he goes on is to discover new critiques appropriate not to the contradictions of capitalism. But to its death in two thousand and eight and interminable Zombie Afterlife for a prophetic philosophy of this new future without capitalism. I'm some ways. I'm not unlike a lot of people I grew up under capitalism. I was willing to say that there's bad in good kinds of capitalism but Would I have come to realize over time? Maybe I'm a slow learner. That capitalism is about growth and has a dogma of growth and has a journalist from the Guardian George mob yacht points out something like two or three percent growth over twenty or twenty five years is effectively doubling our economy. We can't afford to double our economy which means we can't afford growth which means we can't afford capitalism okay the simplest takeaway messages a capitalism is what's causing climate change soon as you realize that it's hard to say. Well you know I kinda like this. Kind of capitalism are like that kind of capitalism. The problem actually is capitalism full stop. That's not something. I came to very easily because you know to not want to be Hypocrite about it. I'm I'm part of the machinery of capitalism. And I leave. I'll let yeah and I've benefited from capitalism. And so on and so on. I'm just like everybody else so to be consistent. I always thought well. I've got to find a way through capitalism to to to see you know what kind of position I can have on that but climate change makes things very very clear if climate change is real and it is and capitalism. Is the thing that's driving climate change then we have to change capitalism and we have to change the Dogma of Perpetual Growth. That means we need something like a philosophy of de Growth and that doesn't sit well with people that want you know a third TV or whatever it is. We actually don't need that stuff but we need his life on. The planet has no recent precedent to follow right. How do you do that? How DOES DE GROWTH? I think I think you know we will not do it. We will not and we are not doing but I think it's going to be done to us. I'm afraid I can't see capitalism surviving the way it is I guess that's getting back to your initial question. I mean wh what is the state of Kaplan what's going to happen. I'm one of these people that think the capitalism basically died in two thousand and seventy thousand eight with the big global recession housing crisis. And so on and you say well there's something the style exists. Obviously there's something there while I say well that's kind of like a Zombie. Capitalism made possible by deficit spending which is spending money. Future Generations Right. That's what it means spending money. You don't have indebting the future but the challenge is you dared me to. There are lies that continue to flourish precisely because of capitalism and fossil fuels. So I'm wondering. Do you think at all that. You might be overstating. I don't think so. I mean I think I don't think I'm overstating it all just because I am for example benefiting from it and you are in and work shouldn't be talking about the two of us were were benefiting. But we're not really talking about the people that are really obscenely wealthy. That have most of the money most of the wealth in the world. We're talking about even the top half percent writing less than the top half a percent. We you know these stats. You know. Thirty or forty people own half of all wealth in the entire world these KINDA STATS ARE INSANE. So capitalism has done this to itself. It's it's it's hurt itself cert- on caused by not actually looking after the poor and increasingly not even looking after what was formerly the middle class by making life very difficult for regular people through authority measures and I think it is It is simply incompatible with the principles of life so yeah some people will still benefit. Some people will continue to benefit one hundred years from now. They may live on an island fortress they will have hoarded their wealth but the question is what do we want to do with the mass of people that are left over in the aftermath of capitalism. Do we just want to disaster capitalism as Naomi Klein calls it. I don't even think it's disaster capitalism anymore. I think it's a college just capitalism absurdum. It's it's a capitalism out to exploit it really is fascism or neo-fascism. You have the collapse of democracy altogether like we've seen in the United States. This is made possible by capitalism in decline. Now you can say it's not quite dead. He can say is dead. It doesn't really matter. Something has happened to capitalism and it's not functioning correctly at minimum. So what are we GONNA do? What comes after it. It's a good question. Nobody knows that's the problem. You kind of paint an ARC that begins with. I guess the beginning of capitalism but the the Boone boomer era where you say that lying and bullshit have become the new common sense and as a result. I guess what I'm asking is. If truth was the first casualty. What other casualties might we expect? I mean once you give up on truth and you give up on scientific facts. I mean everything kind of falls from that so I don't know what would more greater disaster. You could have then people's total disregard for truth because from that everything follows right. I've come up with this. This term which is an ugly kind of term I call it like a rationalism kind of like on the same models amoralism morality. It's almost like people are have disregard now for the truth they are neither for nor against. It seems to me that we can't afford that. That's a that's impossible today. We must actually accept that there are basic facts. For example. There's there. There could be nothing more traumatic To our society then this collapse of truth and reason and by extension science and the absolute manipulation of the people through social media. And so on I mean if you want people to remain capitalist you have to maintain them in their in their servitude. In some way right I can be happy making my seventy thousand dollars a year. My fifty thousand dollars. Whatever it is but you need to give them once you stop being able to even maintain them in that then you will fail and capitalism is failing to do that. That's why it's turned into fascism. This is why we can actually speak in a way that seems an abomination about surplus populations surplus population surplus population has any population that can contribute to GDP say for example wall more and more with automation. Well WE HAVE. Nobody left to work. Well you turn populations surplus surplus populations for the purpose of capital. Then we have a problem in. That's in fact. We're doing cheap labor cheap labor and then no labor at all once you automate things. People don't You know understand that the Industrial Revolution Mechanized Labor and reduce the need for laborers. We've been following through that logic through the twentieth century until now when we have the automation of intellectual Labor Automation of intellectual. Labor is supposed to amount to something like forty percent reduction of the labor force in places like Canada United States over the next twenty years forty percent. We're talking lawyers doctors accountants. This stuff is audible and Donna. Mation doesn't make mistakes so it's good question. Would it be going to do with all these unemployed people people not just from the working classes the middle classes could ignore them before? Maybe certainly the upper middle class middle classes are about to be gutted. We have to have a different plan moving forward. Because they're making the middle and upper middle classes surplus populations. They will become just as angry as the working. Classes are right now and rightly so the anger that American the many Americans feel toward their Po- politicians is deserved. It's it's not simply unreasonable. It's deserve how they're expressing. It is unreasonable. Because they're given no options except for awful options so this takes me back to the beginning of this conversation and your quest and I'm trying to figure out how terrifying it must be to be staring at what you just described in a world that's mired in Half Truth and in skepticism about science and yet you're talking about trying to find a new way of thinking forward. How do you bridge that golf? Well for me. The bridging of the Gulf it will be the inevitable response of what I'm calling the democracy of suffering if you're GONNA have a shift in consciousness in its ads and happened yet. Obviously the science hasn't convinced enough people to do anything significant. What I'm trying to say is a kind of Optimistic PESSIMISM AS I call it. Is that the experiences of widespread suffering is going to wake people up this hope. This is the last hope so. We're going to have catastrophe after catastrophe. We're going to have people actually possibly able to do and agree upon new ways of organizing social political and economic parts of our society. And that means we have a new world did suits the new physical world. The world has changed. It's changed because a capitalism capitalism's failing not sir. It's not serving the people we need. Something else may sites can help us. Maybe technology can help us. I certainly hope it can. But we need to have new ways of thinking about ourselves in new ways of organs organizing ourselves so that we can actually survive and not just survive survive. Survive is such a minimal standard. Many people will die but we certainly want civilization to survive. Let's just say not just libraries but we want an active civilization. What is that GONNA look like? It's going to be a new social political world. The we are going to create together for Todd. Defraigne number eleven in the list of major features of the anthroposophic condition goes like this the answer pristine condition points to a revolution in thinking to a shift in human consciousness one that comes long after the answer pristine proper was born if you were to describe what this major feature is like. What is it exactly that you're talking about when the shift in human consciousness? Well my thinking is that consciousness itself is a reflection of the environment in which we live that has been an assumed part of twelve thousand years of human evolution that natural world is L. itself is is shifting underneath our feet and the way we think about ourselves which has been given to us by this environment that we've accepted without thinking about the natural world is changing you know kind of metaphorical way. It's it's like a slap in the face. The world is no longer the same as it was. We created this world. We created this world and now we need to recreate who we are to live in it because it actually is hostile to life. We've created a world that is hostile to all life. There was as of November. If I remember correctly there was a hundred thousand species that died when extinct in two thousand nineteen that was by November. So is route one hundred two thousand at that point. I didn't look a little bit later. Over one hundred thousand species go extinct in one year. This is what they call it. The sixth Great extinction well. This is what we're talking with the anthropoid seen if you prefer you can call it you call it a great extinction it's an extinction event. If that doesn't scare people I don't know what will well it hasn't scared people because it say say bats and insects. They don't care about bats and insects but they will care when it's when it's them hopefully they will care when they see people suffering on TV in Australia and Mumbai July and other parts of the world where things happen every day now. So I'm what I'm trying to say that the external world helps create who we are as human beings. Her external world has changed. Therefore we will change. We will whether we like it or not and you say this condition you date this condition back to those photographs that you mentioned at the beginning of the earth I do. Yeah what is it about? Or what was it about those photos that made them? Kind of these cultural touchstones that for what it means to be human being in the contemporary world. While I say two things I say those photos helped make possible. The Modern Environmental Movement so photographs helped change our thinking about the environment. I try to say as well that the notion or the or the theme. Or the idea of the antecedent is just as big a deal but it's an intellectual idea that's about a geological shift. An an idea can help push forward a new world to think that we've left an era and enter another one. Is this epochal? So wh- what we see with with Those photographs is dawning of consciousness. A An environmental consciousness. What you see with this shift to the bathroom scene is a far greater. Far bigger deal than that. It is the continuation of this refining or dawning of a new consciousness That is based around the environment. But some ways I mean as it sounds maybe a little pollyanna or something. But I don't think so. I don't think so. The experience of suffering of ubiquitous suffering is such to make a mass out of the world. The experience of suffering this experience if it's global is enough to make a shift in consciousness away from the mistakes of the recent past starting. Let's say with enlightenment and getting going with the industrial age and think about ourselves and our place in the world differently. Democracy whether or not we can have democracy. I'm not sure we certainly will have suffering. Which is guaranteed? It's baked into our future. You say that right now. We're actually having another sort of blue marble moment like we did back when Apollo took those pictures back then we beheld. This earth looked lonely against this dark sky. What are we beholding today by being in this condition that you call the experts in condition? Yeah well I think that in a kind of like you know simple. Kind OF WAY. We're experiencing existential angst in the face of our demise this is this is this is extinction extinction is about death. This is a species species all over the place that are dying but that includes a threat to human life itself that should get people interested even if self interested. I'm okay with that at this point. People certainly didn't want to stand up for people living sacrifice zones and other parts of the world. People didn't want to stand up for the poor. They will stand up Ice Soom for themselves and for their own existence so that that can't be avoided that's the democracy of suffering would would a an absurdity that it took that to save something like civilization but civilization changes can't be the same as the one that came before because a good chunk of it's going to go a good chunk of it is going a very large number of people will die? Who will live the healing power of suffering? Is that what it's going to take for us to achieve oneness with this planet would a hard question way? Yes I guess. So I mean Fredric. Jameson has a great line It's easier to match in the end of the world and the end of capitalism. It seems that is what's going to. That's what it's GonNa take. I mean this is this is this is how I thought about it. We are facing a certain future of climate catastrophe to me. That's a given and we have to wonder what we can save. Who will be saved and what we will become. These are the biggest possible questions you could imagine. I guess it takes the democracy suffering addicts ubiquitous global suffering for us to do with the right thing. So yeah I guess so. Is there no proposition philosophy? That could that could avoid US having to go through the suffering to find a new way of thinking. It's too late. I think one of the problems with the science is pretty clear. We try to keep our carbon emissions under three hundred fifty parts per million right now. There are around. Four hundred ten parts per million. So that's quite a bit higher but people don't understand that the air pollution itself is probably Accounting for a point five to one degree reduction so in fact already in two thousand seven our emissions were probably thought to be around four hundred sixty five. You know actually it's just that are pollution is protecting us from the heat. So let's imagine that we get our act together in the next ten years fifteen years and we really cut our emissions we've got another degree increase anyway that brings us to to one and a half is catastrophic to is very catastrophic but probably what's baked into the environment is more like three. That's even if we do stuff so no matter what people are going to die. We are not avoiding six extinction. We are not avoiding global suffering so given that it changes everything we think about the future and about the past. You say that the hope is that the democracy of suffering will transform what the pope called the globalization of indifference into the globalization of empathy and that this transformation will actually make possible a common ground for social action and that common ground will include the Earth on which we live and die. I'm just wonder if you could walk us through. What brings you to that conclusion. That common suffering might lead to common empathy well in an ideal world which we don't live in but even so. I think I mean people don't have to live in Australia to empathize with with with what has happened. Hopefully experiences of other suffering can activate what? I'm calling the globalization of empathy. Maybe it doesn't require my personal suffering per se. That would be good because of it has to be. Everybody actually asked to experience it then. We are in trouble but actually. I don't think that we have to experience it. We will will. Anyway we're experiencing higher temperatures varies but but maybe we experience very minor inconveniences from climate. Change if we're lucky to live in Canada some parts of Canada. Some parts of the world But I think through media through Journalism we can become sensitized to the facts around the world we can learn to accept the facts as facts and we can change as soon as possible to save what we can save. My only caveat is that we've waited so long that the suffering is guarantee means a guarantee even of me being empathetic towards the people in Australia into the billion animals I. It was five hundred million reverend than a couple of days eight. Actually it's a billion animals perish. This is a this is a tragedy this is this is this is a global tragedy is not an Australian tragedy global tragedy. And if we can get to that then we don't have to experience it. Direct their concrete so I'm hopeful thanks to media and the way that we have media that we can actually agitate and raise consciousness without having to necessarily directly experience it. I think that's true. I think I think you and I would be people like that. I've never experienced anything like that in my life and hopefully we never will help. We never but works. We're seeing it around the world and to some extent we consider ourselves maybe global citizens or something. And we're open to that. These people are activated. These people are aware and I think for the rest the suffering will take care of them. They will they will. They will come around and eventually I mean. We need to have leaders that don't listen to the people that care less about that. As I was going to people that are careless. We should care less about their opinion too but we need people that will. Actually you know work for the majority and the big trouble is work collectively with other countries to get things done that need to be done now. You paint a rather bleak picture of what could happen in the world and we've talked about this a little bit today but you also then right after this is in the book paints kind of a negative image. What's the pivot what will determine which way the world actually swings? United States is pretty important. Why United States has to get on board? But it can't be that that the next thing that has to happen is the election of a socialist president. No it doesn't have to be that but it certainly is standing in the way you have people saying fairly convincingly that you have global elites not only not interested in climate change but actually perfectly cool with it why because you're talking about the erasure of surplus populations that they otherwise. Don't kill off in their neo-fascist dystopia that they are forging right now. Wow that's a dark vision. The thing about it is. It's not entirely impossible or implausible either. So that's why I say yes. We need to have leaders. That are willing to do this. We need to have the leaders. And if you don't have the leaders at the very least we need to have the people activate By showing up in marches. And things like that to try to change the minds of politicians that are supposed to reflect their interests. But do not so this. This problem of presentation is is is really the hugest problem. So I I I mean. That's why the American election is important can ever in the whole world can't hang on that it certainly leads us down certainly sets a bad example and because Americans are so much at the heart of A world of consumption that if they were leaders would change things and the next best thing is to have Canada be leader. You don't have to be the biggest. Necessarily the problem is that we need to make the change. Some say within the next ten years. That's like nine years by now. That's daunting the we're not going to change everything in the next nine years or eight and a half years. Whatever it is we should we will not therefore what will then. I think Canada and places like it need to stand up. We need to lead by example because we are a horribly irresponsible country in this regard precisely. Because it's jobs before the environment so we're not exactly clean on this we're all complicit we're far from a change in direction on that we are far from that we have nice rhetoric at least The the goal would be to hold the government to its own rhetoric. At least so it's possible. It's possible that we don't have to wait on the United States for everything. That's that's you're saying it's a harder route but it's very much harder route and it has become harder since trump came in it was possible before trump that America was okay with the Paris accord and things like that but it's just falling apart and so other people fall apart so so so there's a silver lining of sorts at a time when conditions for existence. Get harder you. This is what your session you say that. The democracy of suffering practically guarantees that the rating of one's life will be clarified even simplified. That's to me. Seems a little too simple? Can you explain? Can you walk me through that? Well I mean when you democracy suffering would include a mass unemployment for example that will affect people whether or not they get in a flood or a fire or whatever and when when our our lives are touched in this way we actually can choose to live differently as individuals. I mean we need collective changes right. We need structural changes. We need massive investment in various kinds of things in disinvestment and other kind of things. But when I talk about curing wants life this is always the thing that one can can turn to. What is what is one can do with her life. What is happiness to a given individual Is it working a job Eighty hours a week and having a bunch of things wall and a future. When there's no employment I guess that that that dilemma of selling out and becoming a bourgeois like me goes away other things will come up with the love you have to. You have to do something with your life. And that's all I mean. All I mean is that. There's there are choices that we'll have to make and we will have to make them. There's there's not going to be is not an easy job for you in the future that's GonNa fall in your lap and if there's less employment altogether you're going to have to make hard choices about what to do. One of the things would be to have free education. That people could go to school. One of the things would be to start a band. Take Art. I mean because you're going to have to be differently employed then you were in the past. What are we going to do? How are we going to eat? We haven't talked about the universal basic income. Are we going to have to have such a thing to me? I can't see how we can get around not having such a such a thing. Why because people have no money in by transferring wealth to them a little bit of money. They'll spend one hundred percent of it into the local economy. But what would they do? You don't need that when you stop working. That's the ironic thing we work in order to work. Well I think in the future. We will work in order to live in order to have a life. Maybe we can actually discover what happiness actually means and what a meaningful life actually means in a world after work. Ironically doesn't mean all work goes away it means they work you don't want to do you don't need to do doesn't need to be done. People often say well we need more power to to what produce more cars more shoes. I mean what what do we need? We don't need as much as we think we need in the West. I think we're going to rediscover that. We don't need as much. Let me just read something that you've part of your writing on this is you. Just you describe philosophy by saying that in the end wisdom. Loving isn't just a calling. It's a practice. The Pristine has given birth to a condition that makes us practice vitally useful. You also go on to say the philosophical life is one that embodies wisdom and then does something to it. It's knowing and showing thinking being the condition is our chance may be our last chance to matter. We should take what I'm trying to do is to say that we are all potentially curious wisdom seekers we all must become aware of the world in which we live in what we can do to try to make it a better world some ways that mostly involves trying to encourage our politicians to make the big structural changes that actually make a difference and not just say consuming less which is important too and recycling which can be important but who knows depending on what it is. We need to have collective changes and that the suffering guarantees it in any case that we will not be alone at least in our suffering I think that we can do better. We are better than this. The question is why. Haven't we changed? Well because the forces of Dystopia have kept us from shifting. The Economy Society politics are our way of thinking philosophy. They've kept US where we are. Status Quo existing powers the existing power. That must be naturalized. There is no alternative to the present. Well there is an alternative and we know it's coming one way or another if it's coming one way or another. Do we want it to be a distant future based on fascism an unfree or future based on hope and collective yearning for meaningful existence while I say the ladder and I think really. It's that stark. Either choose you know. A very bad you distill PIA that movies like to show us and some novels are we tried to live in a utopia of our own creation. Will it live up to being a utopia? No but it's certainly better not be a straight up dystopia with fascist overtones. Because that's going right now just to end off with. I was hoping you would read a little bit from close to the end of your book. just to pass it for us there. That basically sums up near your argument and what. You're hoping people will do go ahead. You're happy to do that. We really don't need philosophers telling us what to do and who to be what we really do need though is for more of us to become philosophically curious about the conditions of today to be. Let's just say journalists philosophers in and of our own perilous time in the end wisdom. Loving isn't just a calling. It's a practice. The anthropology has given birth to a condition that makes this practice vitally useful. The final answer to our guiding question is just that anther percentage is the call to be useful and by being useful to be responsible. The philosophical life is one that embodies wisdom and then does something to show. It is snowing in showing thinking and being the anthroposophic conditioning. Our chance maybe our last chance to matter. We should take it on ideas. You've been listening to democracy of suffering talk defraigne and his urgent call to arms to find new ways of thinking about who we are and our responsibility to the planet. Todd book the democracy of suffering life on the edge of catastrophe philosophy in the answer scene is published by McGill Queen's University press and it's available online on kindle and through a fine bookstore near you. The program was produced by Philip Coulter. Lisa I you. So is the web producer. Had Ideas. Danielle do vow is our technical producer. Nicholas cage is the senior producer. Greg Kelly is the executive producer of ideas. And I'm for more. Cbc PODCASTS GO TO CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.

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05:26 min | 1 year ago

The Holocene Extinction

"Welcome to kiss myths and mysteries. I'm your host kit. Chrome today. The whole scene extinction this podcast. I usually addresses now. Standing Myth sometimes mystery often the common thread connecting myths to mystery is a both been around a long time both existed assisted across continent or around the world as often as not fact surrounding these myths or mysteries difficult to locate are then lost in the missiles sup- time many miss slip into the category of mystery where they are rejected out of hand by science yet just because science rejects a myth does not mean that they can prove does not exist recently this podcast covered Deja Vu and included four scientific theories on what Deja Vu really was however these were just theories and could no more disprove Deja. Vu than the paranormal explanation could prove deja Jabu okay that's said as night present data surrounding extinction and the current scene or six extension. I attempted to use faxes. Exit are agreed on by experts in that field from around the world. The debate or controversy on this subject is how come and ny now the earliest extinction came about when that asteroid somewhere between six fifty miles long struck the Yucatan Peninsula Salaam Mexico. There's some debate about the size of the asteroid but it's agreed on by the biggest minds on that matter that it caused a worldwide climate climate disruption and brought about the extinction event or a mass extinction in seventy five percent of earth's plants and animal species became extinct. Basically it brought the existence of dinosaurs to an end keep in mind that this conversation will not cover the earliest earliest life the crawled out of the primordial soup. That's not what this is about. Many of the species that survived the worldwide climate change created by the asteroid. Roy died out during the second grade extinction and those who survived that died out in the third or fourth and fifth volcanoes around the world unleashed poisonous this gas into the atmosphere oceans encountered a huge algae blooms depleted the oxygen destroying sealife. It's believed that life today evolved from just four percent of the animals sealife and plant life that survived five huge changes in the earth's atmosphere here comes comes to great controversy. A heated debate in the scientific community is whether or not earth is heading into another mass extinction. Currently the world is in the whole scene. Extinction plants and animals are dying off at normally fast rates and life as we know it is in danger this time however the causes of all que nos spewing poisonous gas into the atmosphere or a giant impact created by an asteroid human human activity is triggering a changing global climate which has increased species extinction to between ten and one hundred times faster than the norm. The evidence is pretty clear. We are headed toward the sixth mass extinction if we are not already in it all this leads to a very big question will we humans be part of this six extinction just because we've survived the loss of X. number species. Can we keep going down the same trajectory Chakri or do we eventually impera latch system that keeps people alive and if we could survive. Would we really want to live an environment devoid voyage of diversity of species unlike deja Vu mentioned earlier this podcast that may someday be explained by science and that today we can CEO only time will tell paranormal neurological the question of human survival and who humans surviving a six extinction can't be addressed in that same time will tell manner simply because when that time that tells arrives it may be too late to change conclusion hold the whole scene extinction was produced here at night owl sound studio and brought to you by Al Creek Press Creek Cabin Dot com check it out and by the Rogue Valley Metaphysical Library now you can also listen on Tuesdays and Thursdays to two other podcasts. I have one one tales of ghost towns of the old West and the other. If you've got a book an idea for manuscript or maybe you're struggling with your second or third manuscript. I have a podcast called building a writer's life it covers everything from the bare bones of starting that book and how to make the book readable beatable to how to market the book the best way to get an aggregated ascended out to different countries and that's also Tuesday and Thursday and that is building a writer's life and of course every Monday Wednesday and Friday. You can listen to kids myths and mysteries. I'm Kit Kit Chrome. Thanks for listening.

Deja Vu deja Jabu Deja writer ny Yucatan Peninsula Salaam Mexic Al Creek Press Creek Cabin Dot Roy Rogue Valley Metaphysical Libr CEO seventy five percent four percent
Lindsay - Founder & Happiness Enabler

Blackout Podcast

47:07 min | 7 months ago

Lindsay - Founder & Happiness Enabler

"This is the blackout podcast. Did a blackout podcast where I get to talk to amazing people doing amazing things and I'm. Excited to finally get Lindsey on. Been Colonel This happened, but you've been busy with a fluted. Older, many things do. Super Happy here today I'm really happy to thank you. A little, be. Mobile Yourself. That's a loaded question. I try to. To drink my water. Is Like I've gotta hydrate, so tell me more about yourself. let's see born and raised in Sherman acade- Nova Scotia so I'm actually from No. I'm from here and. I had a pretty rural lifestyle growing up more thousand people from where I'm at. I went to. And I did friends ix, and then I switched to any Yeah, yeah, yeah, so when growing up I wanted to be a corner. I was like I wanted to be a forensic pathologist. I I wanted to medicine because it was really fascinated with dead bodies. We exit likely yeah. The here's here's been in a sink once I got to you. Everyone who's in signs like I'm pre. Med I'm pre-med and so I was like I'm probably not smart enough to do that, so I switch engineering, and then I went to ABC and I lived in Vancouver for eight years, and finished engineering degree there, and then about five years ago, I moved back here and life kind of just took me completely sideways, an engineering, and then I opened the flotation center. House eight years and It's interesting because when I was living in Halifax. I've felt the city like was too small for me at the time I was like you know what I can. I know a lot of the people I've I've made it here and that like. I was ready to explore more, but once I got to be really quickly realized that it was not going to be a forever placed me Vancouver was too big. But the I like two years I was there I must've spent thousands of dollars in concert tickets, because there's so many bands that go to Vancouver to play there, but never ever let me go, mom, we all then and they dipped down into the state, so I really made the most of. My time and my student loan money there, but then. Didn't plan on staying, but then they got married and I stayed there. Yeah I got married. And my ex husband, he's from there so and wasn't engineer, so we didn't really like I. Always wanted to come back here eventually, but they're you know making A. Decent salary and there's so many plentiful jobs and stuff at the time that it was, it was very easy to stay, but then we split in I was really ready to come back to Nova Scotia, but gave myself a year to like have a good thing Kubota. Don't be knee jerk. You just got divorced and come back right away and but within that year there were a lot of signs Lindsey. You have to get a drink water. Someone Lines I had six people in my life. Pass away suddenly like for my best friend. Maybe ever not my favorite uncle You know that I'm Stein definition of insanity of doing the same thing over so I was really trying to make engineering work for me, but I was miserable out. We'll go ingenious like. it was chemical environmental, so it's chemical engineering, but with environmental concentration, but really looking back. I probably should've just done like environmental engineering chemicals vary laced with the Oil and gas industry so and that's something that was very opposed to so anyway. But the money though Oh, yeah yeah. So I, had a pretty sweet gig where I did fly to Fort mcmurray. Two weeks, and then I flew me back to Vancouver and then I was offered two weeks so I I only worked six months of the year, but I worked to extract twelve days. But I mean seventy thousand dollars a year, but only working six months, so it was a it was a pretty good Gig, but the money wasn't worth it ultimately in the end, and it wasn't what I wanted to do so so I still thought it was like I'm GonNa. Make try this company. And I'm not happy woman to try maybe working over here, but really what? It was the actual industry that I wasn't. Feeling fulfilled and satisfied with. But Yeah so I actually moved back to Halifax for job like for an engineering consulting job that. Probably, I think I had just packed up one of those moving pods and sent it across the country, and then I get a call saying. We don't have a job for you. The contract fell through so I still move back because I had to, and then fortunately, though as able to on by, and that gave me some time to think about like what I really wanted to do and What am my main reasons for going into like engineering was I wanted to. It was my environmental background I would say definitely was an environmentalist and so I just wanted to help people and do something that was like helping the Earth. The bigger picture and engineering was not. Then, but then what happened was was floating, came along and meditation, having a meditation practice like saved my life, and so I always felt like is they're sneaky way to get people to meditate? But floating was the key like floating. 'cause people come from their flow being like. Oh, my Gosh, I think I just meditated and never done before, but then they'll come back saying so you don't WanNa floated now I've taken that meditation practice home, and then they're continuing with it so I just realized that I wanted to do good work, but it feels better in a more one to one level as opposed to. creating byles that are going to protect our streams, which is very good work, but it was going to take me years and years of work to see any. Change Our positive influence whereas. Hits my dopamine receptors very quickly. Because I can be impatient. MEAN THE BE. The man to divorce happening you move well. Then you this job that failed true, but you back. How long were you in? How for you decided I'd like? Did you flip before? into. so for my birthday F. Seven or eight years ago. I was gifted afloat and I really enjoyed it. It was terrifying at first. Like they're like. Here's the earplugs. Don't get the water in your eyes. And that was. There was no preamble. Walk through to make you feel cozy. Excuse me and. It was, so it was something that stucco, but it wasn't something that. I didn't think that was like a point. In my life that that things were going to change. It was just like those really profound experience. Okay, and then when I was living in Halifax. I need to float any to to think about. What do I WANNA do and I found that the closest floats space was in Montreal but thirteen hours away, so it's like nope. I. Think I moved here in. October twenty thirteen and we opened up in May. Fifteen so like a year half a liter or something, so it happened very very quickly take. Pictures. Like, we all be. On I know I. Yeah, so they were going to charge thousand dollars. Saving eight thousand dollars, and I'm just going to knock down the walls myself. Hose up process. I mean when. Yearning Genia, but still weren't. You worried so my goal? No because that's the thing, too, is that? You know go to the electrical panel on just shut everything off anyway, but I still have a pitcher probably on my phone of the first holy put into the wall and It felt really good. It felt like. Like like yeah, Sheera, he man like but it. It was great, because actually like my dad, my uncles, my cousin and my partner all came out and we just. Grab, some pizza and stuff and knocked down the walls and I'm sure there's probably a metaphor. How long. Do. Oh Day, but then. Lots of like. Chipping the tiles and stuff off the floor, so yeah, but in total, so we started the demolition process. Mid February Twenty fifteen and up may eighth, so it took us. You know I. Guess was a marginal almost three months to do the whole thing so. His Did. He needs a Guinea permits. And because I'm the total like nerdy engineers, I was like I've got my permits and I have them like nailed to the wall. Yeah. They probably walked in my construction team. WOTTON was like you're such a frigging nerve. Working. What was the first thing you remember them putting in the building? So once we turn on the walls, we do a lot of draining and stuff to putting some drainage for the flow tanks. In case, there is a flood. But what really sticks out to me? Is that after wants? The walls got were studied, and and and they're starting to put it up that I was like holy smokes like this place didn't exist as it does. Now you know, and there's like even now when I lock up. Burn or I opened the door our. Has a really good like click to it like a resonates, and you just click it, and it's always a reminder that the end of the day that when I locked that door I'm like wow, this place didn't exist now. It's funny. How something so simple? You can make you thinking about that sort of thing. But but it does through when you start. How many times man? So, we started to and then May. Twenty? Sixteen, we added a third tank, so we were at capacity were booked about one hundred percent of the time almost two three weeks out, so. which is great because when your new business? Just like I am going best this. Bend, and I can't believe I left engineering, which no, I can't believe. I left engineering, but like you've got all these worries and stuff, but We just have done a really good job of being very. Honest about the floating and the process and stuff that people can connect in if they're curious, I find that just. Something little that we may say. It's enough for them to be like. Hey, you know what I was thinking about this now. I'm going to so. Yeah! It's it's great. We always like welcome in a ton of New People, interest, face and stuff, and I love it because I get really excited. When New People come into flow to because I really feel like I'm very good at at what I do like. 'cause I I I. Don't lie to people, but the experience I'll you know and I just? Find that I Can Get on get on the level where someone is at and just listen to what they have to say whether coming into float. But then I do get genuinely excited for them, so they probably have their nerves like eased a little bit because they realize that it's not just a stuffy environment of like here Samir plugs. Watering eyes. So, then Oh yeah. Let's run a little bit so before before you actually start at a hockey. You Fund the police. Well. So with a lot of like financing for businesses and stuff. They want to see that you're putting in. A third of what that. Loan program going to give you so. Being an engineer I had about eighteen thousand dollars of. RSP's yeah. I was like RSVP's are. Saved up, so I just took my retirement. And could show like so credit union BBC Co. Our Future for Noor be like Yeah I've got twenty thousand dollars. Okay I've got twenty thousand dollars here we go. I was my. It's funny. My biggest concern with the whole project was that they were going to see that I have a ton of student loans. Laugh like I started with about seventy five thousand dollars of student loans now down to vote forty thousand, but I still thought that they're going to be like. Not Going to happen. Good luck, but. To find. The hardest part wasn't the financing was more of the. HR whatever. Ole and then also what's really cool in our provinces that we have a equity tax credit program, and what that is is that friends and family can can invest into Your Business through this tax credit program, and they get back on their income taxes the very first year thirty five percent of their investment. Crazy rates, so it's mostly for people who like want to support your business. Put the money into it, and they're not expecting a big return right away, but they're like. Put in ten thousand dollars. I'm getting back thirty. Five hundred like never happens. So the big. You know that that never happened so I got lucky in that I had some family members and a couple of friends who also wanted to invest into the business too, so that. That definitely it's not like I'm dishonest and that I. DO Shady Business Practices, but it definitely like makes me I. Always Thinking that I've got other people who? I am caring for making business decisions on their behalf, saying with having staff as Self. you start out with stuff right away. Yeah, I had to. I know my I. Know My limit, so we were open six days a week any small. It was myself in Palmer whose he's still with me. So I think we might have been closed on Mondays. Monday was like maintenance day where we do our deep clean and chain know fix this and do whatever and then after being open for about six or seven months. We hired a third person who was just. One or two shifts a week. But. Now behind the desk, there's myself and. for the people. And we're open seven days a week from most as like eight am to ten pm to so, and then there's also a ten practitioners that work gonNA the spaces while. That's kind of new rate. Rose. We started with it, but it's only it's taken awhile to grow our wellness side of things I mean there's so many places in in Halifax, their wellness centers and clinics, and we have a really amazing population of like massage therapists, so it takes an such a personal thing, too, so you've gotta find the first leg, and now though like just the people who come in they only want to see Virgil, or they only WanNa see Laurie, you know in the end, so that feels really good as well so with the practitioner as is A. How is it like flotation or they? Separate from. The like flotation center is. Floating primarily, however, we host these independent contractors I still I mean we treat them as a team and employees. Are Not. But we also do as many things as collaboratively as possible to Tom. I've massage service who who loves treating women who are pregnant and floodings really good for women who are pregnant as well so we knew. We were together with stuff like. Losing thing. WARP! Also. Walk me through. The tank is contains what water water so. Flotation therapy tank yes. It's a well engineered, but enclosed top is the easiest way to explain it, so it's the size of a small car like our tanks, eight and a half feet long by four and a half feet wide. And they're bodas. When I stand up there like Chelsea can sit right up. And then there's about eleven inches of water with a thousand pounds of EPSOM salts dissolved in it so when you get into the flow tank, and then you lay back. You just float so when you're in there. There's no sights sounds smells, and since the temperature of the water, the same as your skin surface. You can't tell where the water and air and your body begins and ends, and you lose all kind of. Perception feels like you're floating in space. It really feels like you are just suspended and there's no. Like high pressure points on your body. So what happens when you're in there? Is that like your body? Actually Elongate? Submit up to a quarter of an inch. An? Even just that amount there is enough for any bits of your body. Their colleague locked up tight that that can help increase your circulation, and which includes then what happens, there is like your blood. Pressure can drop so like your stress. Hormone in your cortisol goes down, but then you have a release of like happy neurotransmitters and dopamine, so all these things like just simple level. Just from floating naked in salt water. Great! Players and Talk in the. Seventy five minutes is what we put our session Louis. How he's in Lambda towns or play music so when you come in, we give you like a full walk through. I. Take it incredibly serious like what how we? Make sure that guide people through their experience of what to expect in to ensure that they're like incredibly empowered an educated so that if they're in the flow tank and they're like. I WANNA get out that they know that that's totally okay. You can get out whenever you want and that's. That's all up to you, But so you shower beforehand you flow for seventy five minutes. We have underwater transducers in the flow tanks that plays music to let you know your time's up. Play music. You get out shower again and then we just have a lounge space that you can hang out in his well and just have some tea. Some water color meditate. When extreme, but some people will book, back-to-back floats and flow for like three hours, three and half hours at a time. Yup Holy Smoke. Do they come out and go back just staying all the time for the three us, it depends. Some people have like gotten out to use the restroom and then back in again, but Read a woman who we actually help. fundraise for her to get a tank at her home, but she would come in and just stay for the entire three and a half hours to get what does tank, so she has this Sierra crips. Complex regional pain syndrome, which basically means that every single sensory input to her touch is pain so when she floats since the waters the same as her skin's surface. She doesn't feel any pain whatsoever so when she would get into a flow tank. She would repeat to herself like this is my normal. I'm perfect, health, etc, etc, and by floating. It would every ten ten days at that time was enough to like manage her day-to-day pain so normally she would like stubborn. Toe should be out for the entire day. She'd have to lay down. She would be incomplete pain. Is this a condition affects a lot of police annoys. It's it's it's rare I believe that hers was brought on by a fall and then a concussion. Some people go to lengths of like. They're in so much pain that they'll get induced into a coma. hoping that that's. Almost like revamp restart their nervous system, I guess. And other people have amputated there so if they have it like in their hands will get their hands amputated, because the pain is so bad so with her. She's now floating. I believe every day for like an hour and she's living regular. The all you raise the basement. Yeah, yeah, so yeah. So. This is really amazing, so we. There was a gentleman in Halifax actually like maybe in Bedford. Who was like my wife had one of these flow tanks and she passed away. I'll give it to you for a dollar, so what we did is we put them in touch and then raise money to help with the built for it so they? Probably completed a two years ago, and so she has a float flew flew in her own house internal. tobacco. Tank from the old guys here and not. So like. Death, things you had to do to a house to make short time could feed or. And I mean you want to have a shower right there? Because he salt water everywhere is a pain in the butt I'm you WanNa? Have a good H VAC system, because really WANNA be able to control your temperature of your outside of the room, but also the inside of the tank. things like that. That just had to happen. You don't just put it in your garage and hope for the best. which some people May. Also well. So you have a system that sends water in an antiques it. There's our ours has filtration and pump system that has like a one micron bag filter, UV sterilization unit, the pomp and and then we all we just manually add our like our chemicals and plan on enzymes and stuff to it, but you know. Some of those are self contained this one that we got for them. Everything is on the outside of the tank, which is actually easier to fix and stuff, but yeah I don't know it's. It's it's great. So. won't maybe decided to do that. Like good deleted a tank. Needed it and I felt really bad for someone driving from tro once every week or Two weeks and I just saw her quality of life improving in. The third tank. I! You know at the time I don't know if I was ready for that at the time. I can't really remember, but I just knew that like. She would benefit from it so. Let's help her out and and I mean her and her husband were so. Grateful for it and. And the only thing that stinks, but that we just don't get to see them as much anymore. Come in just to say hi. HOW QUICK FLOATER! For the most part you know, it's kind of a bummer because we don't get to see them as I. Recall call it i. mean the name is breeze, self explanatory, but what was your reason for making it so? Direct. Honestly I wanted to call it. Like maybe a Holocene. Had Wellness or something along those lines, but a lot of. So holocene one. It's a bunny bear song, but to the Holocene is the last period of like ten to I think it's ten or fifteen thousand years of agriculture so mostly like how humans are living the way we are. This period of time is called the hall scene and I really liked that. But when I tested our friends and family, they thought it was stupid. Of frig those guys. So, we just kept us the flotation center. Just kept it again direct. I. There are certain things that I wanted to do. That were very like it has to be this way because this is my space and. I had to let go of that a little bit as well, too, because all do not hold difficult was that. It took probably to actually believe it or not probably like. A good solid two years of letting go of control it always letting go of control like I even just not even with the name like even with more. Micromanaging our team and stuff like having to. Realize that the flotation centers. Not just it's not for me, it's it's much bigger than that so It's always a learning process, but now like here. We are four years in I. Feel so much better than where I. was you know one year in were? Protected like it was a baby, and now you realize you have to Kinda like. Let your. Let your baby go out into the world and then maybe get raft up and learn the hard way. And I mean in hospitalization going. How? No not of question I want to ask personally for you. looking back four years now, I. Do. Think your way YOU WANNA be! So, beginning of this year I made a conscious decision to just have a steady state year It's really easy I find to get caught up in. You gotTA. Hustle. You've gotta you gotTa do is going to be moving and I realized that the flotation centers ready for any more growth rate now so. I'm learning to be okay with just where we are and I I. I used to say like I've being stagnant as were not stagnant. It's just like just steady state even kill. All the things that we did last year. Do again kind of this year, and but after this year I'm going to look at kind of more like A. Look more into what's next and What is next well, thank you fuck. Man I. It's funny because I like, do you? Have you ever heard of that website or APP, it's called. Notes from the universe. It's called Tut Tut Dot Com and what it is, is you get an email a day from the universe, but when you first signed up for the email? Talks to you but like. Setting goals and dreams and And so a couple of my goals were like having a cabin with a lush garden, but expanding the float center to help more people, and once in a while they'll like incorporate your goal in dream into the daily email, so today's was just you know just imagine how great it's GonNa feel when you've reached more people by expanding what the flotation center and I so I've. It's been on my mind not like. I really believe that we need some research done on the benefits of flotation therapy. There's not really much going on in Canada especially in the East Coast so. Ideally ir like to expand to a bigger space, but to have a find funding for more state of the art float that you can get like quit. Soda but. Different Levels Alya. Floating I have I mean. You know when you're naked in the dark doesn't matter what side. Let's say. You're hearing. However for example Dental Laureate Institute for Brain Research and Tulsa Oklahoma. They have a probably a flow tank. That is a big circle. That's wide open, probably as big as the center of this room. And that's where they're doing all like. They're nerd stuff, but they're. They're watch like measuring blood. Cortisol level drops in real time. And where we have dalhousie medical school, and so many universities, like I just see the environment protection therapy creates being this like really specialized environment that like. I want the universities to take advantage of that and some I write to them all the time, but I get nothing back, but I'm still going to try because I really believe in the simplicity of flotation therapy, and and how it works, and that its pharmaceutical free, and what a strain for people, but. Like? When WanNa see the science and It'd be nice to some stuff done locally to, and plus even though I'm not engineer anymore like I still having. Giving numbers give me okay. So with the. With the Sensor, did you? Okay so you saying actually am trying to? Put this right. With we flew flew right. You know it's it's therapy to we. Did you start flooding as a form of therapy for you. I'm actually so. It was given to me as a gift for my birthday seven years ago. And the person who gave it to me new that floating helps with getting into the meditative state, and they knew that I had a meditation practice, so they thought oh well Lindsey meditate. She's going to like to float So that's how I discovered it, but then when I and one of the reasons why I wanted to exist in half expert, then when I started like going deep into the research of just like what a desert people designs and the benefits It really expanded my my My thoughts on what it was doing for me. There was more I'm bigger umbrella basically, so and most people will come in like. On our waiver, we have like why. Why are you in? Most people just want to relax and so sometimes for me. That's all floating is is just a way to relax with on my phone around and just. Relax get naked in salt water. He's always advisable to look up right I don't don't face flow face now. You. Have a good time. You floated before no. I have it an have not can about I know you know I think doesn't. Exactly, doesn't Mexico's GonNa ask that. I mean I don't even closer for bbut just you know. I win the one Dan. Thanks I'm thinking. I like my mind just went to the worst thing. That's bad. All the people who I know should flow. You're so busy. We've been friends now for a couple years and Fluid. Also, it's GonNa find you at the time like you'll You'll find floating at the time that you're meant to and I really and truly believe in that so just because you haven't and we've been friends for a while like no big deal. As I want to talk about you know saying things like that that spirituality side of you coming to for a has always been like or did something in your life to kick start that My Mom, growing up like I can recall her like being those Kooky, spiritual woman but we definitely we grew up in the church like Christians going through church, not stuff but I kind of fell out of that, maybe when I was eighteen or nineteen, just wasn't from anymore but there was always something there like I always was interested in lake, energy, work, and and Ricky and meditation, and and things like that and even ten years ago, I wrote a list of like top blank things that are important to me and one of them was always like finding a guru, so there's always been. That side to to me, but definitely floating help deepen that and the people who I've met through flotation therapy as well has like really expanded. the what's looking for the potential. For for my float sessions and to to share to teach others to so. Garri hit. I'm told Gurus inside. Anyway, actually no last this time last year. I was in Maui at a retreat where I met WHO I would say as my like the Guy Ramdas. Always mostly oppose. I Love I love him I. Love Him. He's really amazing, Quirky spiritual teacher from back in the sixties. Who you know did a lot of like LSD experimentation of consciousness and things like that and went to. Work met his Guru Maharaj. His Maharaja gas and. I've always loved that idea of just like someone who you are I won't say like devoted to, but without any like clouds or over your eyes like you know, you're very aware it's not this. Sickly I've lost myself devotion just like something. That's like bigger than you your. And you know that it is. Good. AM So no glory at really not because when I think of I also think is like a one to one thing that you have someone that you is your that you see all the time, so a does is gonNA. Ask You when you see Guru Lake. Say this person. Do you just? Call them or that's. To. Your window, you know. People who I believe have. You know like whether it's spiritual or meditation. Grew or confidante, or whatever that may be probably have a more one to one relationship on them. Which is kind of what I would love to have. I would sometimes they. My therapist would be my guru who which is interesting. He's little. Hindu man who actually knows Rom dos and he follows. Yoga Nanda who is another? He's Uganda. He's passed away, but he was responsible for bringing yoga to the Western world and stuff like that, so so it's Kinda cool that I. Will make bringing your. Your here late. The you make a Lotta money out of that. Actually what is interesting? Is that I believe it was brought to California I. And, he built a Like a an Osram or a shrine or a learning center, however one of the first people who really got into meditation and Yoga. was A M- major businessman back a billionaire back in the day. Who funded it a lot of the projects? I mean they lived quite like simple minds and stuff. but certainly you know. GotTa make some money. But I was funded through mostly donations. Still one. Yogi, Nanda taught is a you know once a year. I think it's an August or July that everyone from around the world flies to California for like this week long retreat since. Displease, it's huge. To all Coley smoke and there's other centers across the world I. Believe as well maybe where he originally was from so have you ever heard the book SH-. Was it biography of Yogi? The what was his name? Apple the Steve John. His favored the only book that he ever kept was autobiography of a Yogi. A lot of life lessons and stuff, but that was written. By believe I think promotional. Uganda has the last thing that he goes by. It's like that one book that everyone should read. Things off your ovaries. And they he gave the they gave it added his funeral and stuff like that. And then the arrest to you. I mean Shit assumingly as you. A couple of weeks ago, you did talk about weed on this thing on told me. That yeah, so that was really interesting. I've I was asked by the people at the coast. If I wanted to be on a panel, just A. Openly chat about cannabis and. At first, I felt like a little bit weird because I'm just a regular Gal, who smokes weed? But. It's also been something that like. It's been part of my life for twenty years and then I've never. Been, I've never really shied away from it or hidden the fact that I did that which I understand is. A lot of people don't have that then that same privilege I. Guess but I yeah it was just like a a great panel just to chat about like our experiences with cannabis, good and bad where we see that the industry is going, and even so daily practice and stuff as well so it was great everyone there is pretty stone I didn't I was like sitting on the stage and I knew I'd be nervous and I, wouldn't I. I, also like I know my limits. And I play within it so I'm more of like an at home stone. But it was, it was excellent am. Really got to hear from a lot of awesome people like in the city as well who are doing. Some good things. Do, you, do you consume cannabis? In that. I Know, now I'm like I've tried it. Yeah, but. His thing though the thing we've means that I always overdo things. Either I WANNA. Try something like if I'm gonNA eat a doughnut, it's to like six. So. The first, I tried it over. Did it yet? You know should. Chill. So mainly, but now he's legal. Maybe now I'm GONNA. overdid it, and it wasn't a very good. And so does this parts of Mita everytime I? Do you want to relieve that? But. How do you feel about when when you knew it was going to be legalized wars tonight? Happy you know it's A. It's a weird. It's scheduled to Grug. Yet? But it just really goes to show. How well! Marketing and corporations and stuff. Are Able to influence government and populations and things like that so. You know the great thing about the Internet is that we now have access so much information at our fingertips that we can see that. Back with Reefer, madness and I think it was like the fifties and sixties that they were really trying to paint this picture of how bad cannabis was for you and blah. Blah Blah Blah Blah but now I. I liked the potential for not just for consumption, but for hemp products because it's durable sustainable, it has a short growth cycle a gross quite quickly like that so. I think now that with the Lita the legalization, a lot of those barriers are GonNa fall down, which is great for the economy, but also. I like the idea that there's a lot of people who've been probably feeling a lot of shame that have been using cannabis, maybe for medicinal reasons, and now they're like fuck all y'all my you know, it's always glaucoma or whatever by. What do you? What do you need a prescription young glaucoma? Fourteen. You're fine. I love that idea that now there's not going to be this. CLOUD OF SHAME You. Know I know that I'm very lucky that I speak quite openly about a lot of things in my life, but there are a lot of folks who like my mom. She a couple years ago. She kind of she broke her back like micro fractured it and the only thing that helped her. Was this lead oil that we'd put on an I can't tell anyone about it, and then you know she's just been skipping down the streets. Using but it's those types and mum, it's okay. She doesn't mind me saying that, but. that's so liberating. and to live in shame for something like a plant. Yeah, right now like. Seems so trivial. died from it not like I know. Say say say the experience I had was. We'd like prescription. Drugs I wouldn't be here today. Yeah, because yeah. And that's another thing that like so for example the Nova Scotia College of medical doctors there really been told in the last few years to cut back on writing prescriptions for things like opioids. Focusing and more proactive things so. Even the fact that a lot of doctors are on the side of cannabis, especially, CBD non psychoactive component. It's awesome to hear to hear that because because it's such a different way and non addictive. Knows a thing about pain medicine. Yeah, it feels good I. Know I went home, my wisdom to pooled, and you know you're drove, but when that happened, so you don't feel it and then did send you away with this thing in the yellow bottle. And taking when you need it or whatever right? And then whatever it gave, you starts wearing out. Daniela Fuck, you hurts. It hurts you. Take this thing swagger too many slam holy Shit, yeah. Who Am I? So I can you know when when you have such an experience? You understand how easy it is. To these things, and then when you get a doctor that Oh, yeah, I'm just going to refill this thing it's. Easy to just fall into. I'm kind of happy that the family behind especial oxy. Big Guy I was reading this article on. The, Dick so I. Don't know too much about the family. Except for it was just a big money making thing to do without worrying about the consequence, everybody needs families a balloon KRYSTOF so there was this guy I think is like a modest Yobo. Really high opened the company. He sends a memo that was leaked and it was saying that we can't be blamed for the people that getting. Addicted to ask thing the. Folder by people. Even say that because I will I I guess you know you expect an internal memo and he won't go out. Go out yeah, anyway I'M GONNA to with this. The wave was the story behind, do we? Know. So. There's a line in a song by the band called the weaker thin. That's s s something like how I don't know what to do with my hands when I talk to you and how you don't know where to look so you look at my hands, and so like I never know what to do and my hands, and so it just became this thing like this. This and and got kind of grew to be like this awkward wave and I don't know what to do, but a couple years ago I stopped shaving underarms. I was just like so tired with with it and I've spent thousands of dollars in like elect like like hair, removal and stuff, but my sister was grossed out by it so I used to do it. Because, she could not handle having like Harry underarms. We'll just gross around, said there definitely was like another layer of it as well but then. It's kind of silly, because just like people kind of caught onto it and so I will get like. People just like the Lindsay. Wave Hi. It's just funded do. I'M GONNA end Lindsey wave. Is Amazing, thank you. This is the blackout podcast. Thanks for listening.

Halifax cannabis TA engineer Lindsey Vancouver Uganda dopamine cortisol Yogi Sherman acade- Nova Scotia Kubota Fort mcmurray Genia ABC Complex regional pain syndrome Holocene
Lindsay - Founder & Happiness Enabler

Blackout Podcast

47:07 min | 7 months ago

Lindsay - Founder & Happiness Enabler

"This is the blackout podcast? Did a blackout podcast where I get to talk to amazing people doing amazing things and I'm. Excited to finally get Lindsey on. been to this happened, but you've been busy with a fluted. Older many things do. Super Happy here today. I'm really happy to thank you. Tell us a little. Be Mobile Yourself. That's a loaded question. I try to. To drink my water. Is Like I've gotta hydrate, so tell me more about yourself. Let's see born and raised in Sherman acade- Nova Scotia, so I'm actually from No. I'm from here and. I had a pretty rural lifestyle growing up more thousand people from where I'm at. I went to. And I. Did Friends Ix, and then I switched to any Yeah, yeah, yeah, so when growing up, I wanted to be a corner I was like I wanted to be a forensic pathologist I I wanted to medicine because it was really fascinated with dead bodies. We exit likely yeah. The here's here's been in a sink once I got to you. Everyone who's in signs like I'M PRE MED. I'm pre-med so I was like I'm probably not smart enough to do that, so I switch engineering. And then I went to ABC, and I lived in Vancouver for eight years, and finished engineering degree there, and then about five years ago I moved back here and life kind of just took me completely sideways an engineering, and then I opened the flotation center. Woes eight years and it's interesting because when I was living in Halifax. I've felt the city like was too small for me at the time. I was like you know what I can. I know a lot of the people I've I've made it here. And that like I was ready to explore more, but once I got to be really quickly realized that it was not going to be a forever placed me. Vancouver was too big. But the I like two years I was there I must've spent thousands of dollars in concert tickets because there's so many bands that go to Vancouver to play there, but never ever let me go, mom, we all then, and they dipped down into the state so I really made the most of. My time and my student loan money there, but then. Didn't plan on staying, but then they got married, and I stayed there. Yeah I got married. And my ex husband, he's from there so and wasn't engineer, so we didn't really like I always wanted to come back here eventually, but they're you know making A. Decent salary and there's so many plentiful jobs and stuff at the time that it was, it was very easy to stay, but then we split, and I was really ready to come back to. Nova Scotia but gave myself a year to like have a good thing Kubota. DON'T BE KNEE JERK! You just got divorced and come back right away and but within that year there were a lot of signs or Lindsey. You have to get a drink. Water Lines I had six people in my life. Pass away suddenly like for my best friend. Maybe ever not my favorite uncle You know that I'm Stein definition of insanity of doing the same thing over so I was really trying to make engineering work for me, but I was miserable out. We'll go ingenious. it was chemical environmental, so it's chemical engineering, but with environmental concentration, but really looking back I probably should've just done like environmental engineering chemicals vary laced with the Oil and gas industry so and that's something that was very opposed to so anyway. But the money though Oh yeah yeah. So I had a pretty sweet gig where I have I did fly to fort. mcmurray. For two weeks, and then they flew me back to Vancouver and then I was offered two weeks so I I only worked six months of the year, but I worked to extract twelve hour days. But I mean seventy thousand dollars a year, but only working six months, so it was a it was a pretty good Gig, but the money wasn't worth it ultimately in the end, and it wasn't what I wanted to do. So so I still thought it was like I'm GonNa. Make try this company and I'm not happy woman to try maybe working over here, but really what? It was the actual industry that I wasn't. Feeling fulfilled and satisfied with. But. Yeah, so I actually moved back to Halifax for job like for an engineering consulting job that. Probably like I think I had just packed up one of those moving pods and sent it across the country, and then I. Get a call saying. We don't have a job for you. The contract fell through so I still move back because I had to, and then fortunately, though as able to on by, and that gave me some time to think about like what I really wanted to do and What am my main reasons for going into like engineering was I wanted to. It was my environmental background I would say definitely wasn't environmentalist and so I just wanted to help people and do something that was like helping the Earth. The bigger picture and engineering was not. Then, but then what happened was was floating, came along and meditation, having a meditation practice like saved my life, and so I always felt like. Is there sneaky way to get people to meditate? But floating was key like floating. 'cause people come from their flow being like. Oh my gosh, I think I just meditated and never done before, but then they'll come back saying so you don't WanNa floated now I've taken that meditation practice home, and then they're continuing with it so I just realized that I wanted to do good work, but it feels better in a more one to one level as opposed to. creating byles that are going to protect our streams, which is very good work, but it was going to take me years and years of work to see any. Change Our positive influence whereas. Hits my dopamine receptors very quickly. Because I can be impatient. MEAN THE BE? The man to divorce happening. You move well. Then you this job that failed true, but you back. How long were you in? How for you decided I'd like? Did you flip before? into. so for my birthday F., seven or eight years ago, I was gifted afloat and I really enjoyed it. It was terrifying at first. Like they're like. Here's the earplugs. Don't get the water in your eyes. And that was. There was no preamble. Walk through to make you feel cozy. Excuse me and. It was, so. It was something that stucco, but it wasn't something that. I didn't think that was like a point. In my life that that things were going to change. It was just like those really profound experience. Okay, and then when I was living in Halifax, I was like I i. need to float any to to think about. What do I WANNA do? And I found that the closest floats space was in Montreal but thirteen hours away, so it's like nope. I think I moved here in. October twenty thirteen and we opened up in May. Fifteen, so like a year half a liter or something, so it happened very very quickly. Pictures. Like we all be. On I know I yeah, so they were going to charge thousand dollars. Saving eight thousand dollars and I'm just going to knock down the walls myself. Hose up process. I mean when will yearning Genia but still weren't you worried so my goal? No, because that's the thing, too, is that? You know go to the electrical panel on just shut everything off anyway, but I still have a pitcher probably on my phone of the first holy put into the wall is. It felt really good. It felt like. Like like yeah, Sheera. He man like but it. It was great, because actually like my dad, my uncles, my cousin and my partner all came out and we just. Grab some pizza and stuff and knocked down the walls, and I'm sure there's probably a metaphor. Long. Do Oh Day, but then. Lots of like. Chipping the tiles and stuff off the floor, so yeah, but in total, so we started the demolition process. Mid February Twenty fifteen and up may eighth, so it took us, you know. I guess was a marginal almost three months to do the whole thing so. His thing. Did He needs a Guinea permits. And, because I'm the total like nerdy engineers, I was like I've got my permits and I have them like nailed to the wall. Yeah. They probably walked in my construction team. WOTTON was like you're such a frigging nerve. Working! What was the first thing you remember them putting in the building? So once we turn on the walls, we do a lot of draining and stuff to putting some drainage for the flow tanks. In case, there is a flood. But what really sticks out to me? Is that after wants? The walls got were studied, and and and they're starting to put it up that I was like holy smokes like this place didn't exist as it does. Now you know and it. There's like even now when I lock up, burn or I opened. The door our. Has a really good like click to it like a resonates, and you just click it, and it's always a reminder that the end of the day that when I locked. That door I'm like. Wow, this place didn't exist now. It's funny. How something so simple? You can make you thinking about that sort of thing. But, but it does through when you start. How many times man? So. We started to and then May. Twenty sixteen. We added a third tank, so we were at capacity were booked about one hundred percent of the time almost two three weeks out, so. which is great because when your new business? Just like I am going best this. Bend and I can't believe I left engineering which no I can't believe. I left engineering, but like you've got all these worries and stuff but We just have done a really good job of being very. Honest about the floating in the process and stuff that people can connect in if they're curious I find that just. Something little that we may say. It's enough for them to be like. Hey, you know what I was thinking about this now. I'm going to so. Yeah, it's it's great. We always like welcome in a ton of New People, interest, face and stuff and I love it because I get really excited when new people come into flow to because I really feel like I'm very good at at what I do like 'cause i. I I. Don't lie to people, but the experience I'll you know and I just? Find that I Can Get on, get on the level where someone is at and just listen to what they have to say whether coming into float. But then I do. Get genuinely excited for them, so they probably have their nerves like eased a little bit because they realize that it's not just a stuffy environment of like here, Samir plugs. Watering is. So then oh. Yeah, let's run a little bit so before before you actually start at a hockey. You Fund the police. Well. So with a lot of like financing for businesses and stuff. They want to see that you're putting in. A third of what that? Loan program going to give you so? Being an engineer I had about eighteen thousand dollars of. RSP's yet. I as like RSVP's are. Saved up, so I just took my retirement. And could show like so credit union. A future for Noor. Be like yeah. I've got twenty thousand dollars okay. I've got twenty thousand dollars here we go. I was my. It's funny. My biggest concern with the whole project was that they were going to see that I. have a ton of student loans. Laugh like I started with about seventy five thousand dollars of student loans in Phnom Down To vote forty thousand but I still thought that they're going to be like. Not Going to happen. Good luck, but. To find. The hardest part wasn't the financing was more of the. HR whatever. Ole and then also, what's really cool in our provinces that we have a equity tax credit program, and what that is is that friends and family can can invest into Your Business through this tax credit program. And? They get back on their income taxes the very first year thirty five percent of their investment. Crazy rates, so it's mostly for people who like want to support your business. Put the money into it, and they're not expecting a big return right away, but they're like. Put in ten thousand dollars. I'm getting back thirty. Five hundred like never happens. So the big! You know that that never happened, so. I got lucky in that I had some family members and a couple of friends who also wanted to invest into the business too, so that. That definitely, it's not like I'm dishonest and that I do shady business practices, but it definitely like makes me I always thinking that I've got other people who. I am caring for making business decisions on their behalf, saying with having staff as Self did you start out with stuff right away? Yeah, I had to. I know my I know my limit, so we were open six days a week any small. It was myself in Palmer whose he's still with me. So I think we might have been closed on Mondays. Monday was like maintenance day. Where we do our deep clean and chain you know, fix this and do whatever and then after being open for about six or seven months. We hired a third person who was just. One or two shifts a week. But. Now behind the desk. There's myself and. for the people. and. We're open seven days a week from most as like eight am to ten pm to so, and then there's also a ten practitioners that work at the spaces while. That's kind of Mu Rate. Rose. We started with it, but it's only it's taken awhile to grow our wellness side of things I mean. There's so many places in in Halifax. Their wellness centers and clinics, and we have a really amazing population of like massage therapists, so it takes an such a personal thing, too, so you've gotta find the first leg, and now though like just the people who come in they only want to see Virgil or they only WanNa. See Laurie, you know in the end, so that feels really good as well so with the practitioner as is a How is it like flotation or they? Separate from. The like flotation center is. Floating primarily, however, we host these independent contractors. I still I mean. We treat them as a team and employees. Are Not. But we also do as many things as collaboratively as possible to Tom. You know. I've massage service who who loves treating women who are pregnant and floodings really good for women who are pregnant as well so we knew. We were together with stuff like. Losing thing. Warp. So. Walk me through. The tank is contains what water water so. Flotation therapy tank, yes. It's a well engineered, but enclosed top is the easiest way to explain it, so it's the size of a small car like our tanks, eight and a half feet long by four and a half feet wide. And they're bodas. When I stand up there like tells you can sit right up. And, then there's about eleven inches of water with a thousand pounds of EPSOM salts dissolved in it so when you get into the flow tank, and then you lay back. You just float so when you're in there. There's no sights or sounds smells, and since the temperature of the water, the as your skin surface. You can't tell where the water air and your body begins and ends, and you lose all kind of. Perception feels like you're floating on space. It really feels like you are just suspended and there's no. Like high pressure points on your body. So what happens when you're in there? Is that like your body? Actually Elongate Zabit like up to a quarter of an inch. An even just that amount. There is enough for any bits of your body. Their colleague locked up tight that that can help increase your circulation, and which includes then what happens, there is like your blood. Pressure can drop so like your stress. Hormone in your cortisol goes down, but then you have a release of like happy neurotransmitters and dopamine, so all these things like just a simple level. Just from floating naked in salt water. Great. Players and In the. Seventy five minutes is what we put our session Louis how he's in. Town or music so when you come in, we give you like a full walk through. I take it incredibly serious like what? How We? Make. Sure that guide people through their experience of what to expect in to ensure that they're like incredibly empowered an educated so that if they're in the flow tank and they're like. I WANNA. Get out that they know that that's totally okay. You can get out whenever you want and that's. That's all up to you, But, so you shower beforehand you flow for seventy five minutes. We have underwater transducers in the flow tanks that plays music to let you know your time's up. Play music. You get out shower again and then we just have a lounge space that you can hang out in his well and just have some tea. Some water color meditate. EX-PM but some people will book. back-to-back floats and float for like three hours, three and half hours at a time. YUP HOLY SMOKE! Do they come out dangle? Go back just staying all the time for the three us, it depends. Some people have like gotten out to use the restroom and then back in again, but Read a woman who we actually help fundraise for her to get a tank at her home, but she would come in and just stay for the entire three and a half hours to get what does tank so she has this Sierra crips. Complex regional pain syndrome, which basically means that every single sensory input to her touch is pain so when she floats since the waters the same as her skin's surface. She doesn't feel any pain whatsoever so when she would get into a flow tank. She would repeat to herself like this is my normal, I'm perfect health, etc, etc, and by floating, it would every ten ten days at that time was enough to like manage her day-to-day pain so normally she would like stubborn. Toe should be out for the entire day. She'd have to lay down. She would be incomplete pain. Is this a condition affects a lot of police annoys. It's it's. It's rare I believe that hers was brought on by a fall and then a concussion. Some people go to lengths of like. They're in so much pain that they'll get induced into a coma. hoping that that's. Almost like revamp restart their nervous system I guess. And other people have amputated there, so if they have it like in their hands will get their hands amputated, because the pain is so bad so with her. She's now floating I believe every day for like an hour and she's living regular. The all you raise the basement. Yeah, yeah, so yeah. So. This is really amazing, so we. There was a gentleman in Halifax actually like maybe in Bedford who was like my wife had one of these flow tanks and she passed away. I'll give it to you for a dollar, so what we did is we put them in touch and then raise money to help with the built for it so they? Probably completed two years ago and so she has a float flew flew in her own house internal. Back! Tank from the old guys here and not. So like. Death things you had to do to a house to make short time could feed or. And I mean you want to have a shower right there. Because he salt water everywhere is a pain in the butt. I'm you WanNa, have a good H VAC system, because really WANNA to be able to control your temperature of your outside of the room, but also the inside of the tank. things like that. That just had to happen. You don't just put it in your garage and hope for the best. which some people May. Also well. So you have a system that sends water in an antiques it. There's our ours has filtration and pump system that has like a one micron bag filter UV sterilization unit, the pomp and and then we all we just manually add our like our chemicals and plan on enzymes and stuff to it, but you know. Some of those are self contained this one that we got for them. Everything is on the outside of the tank, which is actually easier to fix and stuff, but yeah I don't know it's. It's it's great. So won't maybe decided to do that. Like, good deleted a tank. needed. It and I felt really bad for someone driving from tro once every week or Two weeks and I just saw her quality of life improving an. The third tank. I. You know at the time I don't know if I was ready for that at the time. I can't really remember but I. Just knew that like she would benefit from it so. Let's help her out and and I. Mean Her and her husband were so. Grateful for it and. And the only thing stinks, but is that we get to see them as much anymore. Come in just to say hi. How Quick Florida! For the most part you know, it's kind of a bummer because we don't get to see them as. Me Call it, I, mean the name is breeze, self explanatory, but what was your reason for making it so? Derek, I'm honestly I wanted to call it. Like maybe a Holocene, health and wellness or something along those lines, but a lot of. Holocene one. It's a bunny bear song, but to the Holocene is the last period of like ten to I. Think it's ten or fifteen thousand years of agriculture so mostly like how humans are living the way we are. This period of time is called the whole scene and I really liked that. But when I tested our friends and family, they thought it was stupid. Of frig those guys. So. We just kept us the flotation center. Just kept it again direct. I. There are certain things that I wanted to do. That were very like it has to be this way because this is my space and. I had to let go of that a little bit as well, too, because all do not hold difficult was that. It took probably to actually believe it or not probably like. A good solid two years of letting go of control it always letting go of control like I even just not even with the name like even with more. Micromanaging our team and stuff like having to. Realize that the flotation center. Not just it's not for me, it's it's much bigger than that so It's always a learning process, but now like here. We are four years in I feel so much better than where I was you know one year in were. Protected like it was a baby, and now you realize you have to Kinda like. Let them. Let your let your baby go out into the world and then maybe get raft up and learn the hard way. And I mean in hospitalization, senator going. How No? It's not of course I want to ask personally for you. looking back four years now I. Do think your way. You WANNA BE! So beginning of this year I made a conscious decision to just have a steady state year It's really easy I. Find to get caught up in. You gotTa Hustle. You've gotta you gotTA. Do is going to be moving and I realized that the flotation centers ready for any more growth rate now so. I'm learning to be okay with just worry. Are and I, I used to say like being stagnant as were not stagnant. It's just like just steady state even kill. All the things that we did last year. Do again kind of this year, and but after this year, I'm going to look at kind of more like A. Look more into what's next and What is next well, thank you fuck. Man I. It's funny because I. Like do you. Have you ever heard of that website or APP? It's called. Notes from the universe. It's called. Tut, Tut DOT COM, and what it is, is you get an email a day from the universe, but when you first signed up for the email? Talks to you but like. Setting goals and dreams and And so a couple of my goals were like having a cabin with a Lush Garden but expanding the float center to help more people, and once in a while they'll like incorporate your goal in dream into the daily email, so today's was just you know just imagine how great it's GonNa feel when you've reached more people by expanding what the flotation center and I so I've. It's been on my mind not like. I really believe that we need some research done on the benefits of flotation therapy. There's not really much going on in Canada especially in the East Coast so. Ideally ir like to expand to a bigger space, but to have a find funding for more state of the art float that you can get like queried Suda. Different Levels Alya. Floating I? Have I mean? You know when you're naked in. The dark doesn't matter what side. Let's say. You're hearing. However. For Example Dental Laureate Institute for Brain, research and Tulsa Oklahoma. They have a probably a flow tank. That is a big circle. That's wide open. That's probably as big as the center of this room. And that's where they're doing all like. They're nerd stuff, but they're. They're watch like you know. Measuring Blood Cortisol level drops in real time. And where we have dalhousie medical school, and we have so many universities like I just see the environment protection therapy creates being this like really specialized environment that like. I want the universities to take advantage of that, and some I write to them all the time, but I get nothing back, but I'm still going to try because I really believe in the simplicity of flotation therapy, and and how it works, and that its pharmaceutical free, and what a strain for people, but. Like. When WanNa see the science and It'd be nice if some stuff done locally to, and plus even though I'm not engineer anymore like I still having. Giving numbers. Give me okay. So with the. With the Sensor, did you? Okay so you saying actually am trying to? Put, this right. With we flew flew right. You know it's it's therapy to we. Did, you start flooding as a form of therapy for you. Actually, so it was given to me as a gift for my birthday seven years ago. And the person who gave it to me new that floating helps with getting into the meditative state, and they knew that I had a meditation practice, so they thought oh well Lindsey meditate. She's going to like to float So that's how I discovered it, but then when I and one of the reasons why I wanted to exist in half expert, then when I started like going deep into the research of just like what a desert people designs and the benefits It really expanded my my My thoughts on what it was doing for me. There was more I'm bigger umbrella basically, so and most people will come in like. On our waiver, we have like why. Why are you in? Most people just want to relax and so sometimes for me. That's all floating is is just a way to relax with on my phone around and just. Relax. GET NAKED IN SALT water. He's always advisable to look up. Right I don't don't face flow face now. You. Have a good time. You floated before no. I have it an have not can about I know you know I think doesn't. Exactly doesn't Mexico's GonNa ask that. I mean I don't even closer for week. bbut just you know. I win the one Dan. Thanks I'm thinking. I like my mind just went to the worst thing. That's bad. All. The people who I know should flow. You're so busy. We've been friends now for a couple years and Fluid. Also it's GonNa. Find you at the time like you'll You'll find floating at the time that you're meant to and I really and truly believe in that so just because you haven't and we've been friends for a while like no big deal. As I want to talk about You know saying things like that that spirituality side of you coming to for has always been like or did something in your life to kick start that My mom growing up like I can recall her like being those Kooky spiritual woman but we definitely we grew up in the church, like Christians, going through church, not stuff, but I kind of fell out of that, maybe when I was eighteen or nineteen, just wasn't from anymore but there was always something there like I always was interested in lake, energy work, and and Ricky and meditation, and and things like that and even ten years ago. I wrote a list of like top blank things that are important to me and one of them was always like finding a guru, so there's always been. That side to to me, but definitely floating help deepen that and the people who I've met through flotation therapy as well has like really expanded the what's looking for the potential. For for my float sessions and to to share to teach others to so. Garri hit. I'm told Gurus inside. Anyway actually no last this time last year I was in Maui at a retreat met who I would say as my like the Guy Ramdas. Always mostly oppose. I love. I love him. I love him. He's really amazing, Quirky spiritual teacher from back in the sixties. Who you know did a lot of like LSD experimentation of consciousness and things like that and went to. Where he met his Guru Maharaj. His Maharaja Gas and I've always loved that idea of just like someone who you are I won't say like devoted to, but without any like clouds or over your eyes like you know, you're very aware it's not this. Sickly I've lost myself devotion just like something. That's like bigger than you your. And you know that it is. Good. And so Naro Gregory at really not because when I think of but I also think is like a one to one thing that you have someone that you is your that you see all the time, so a does is GonNa, ask you when you see Guru Lake. Say this person. Do you just. Call them or Mail! Good to? Your window, you know. People who I believe have. You know like whether it's spiritual or meditation. Grew or confidante, or whatever that may be probably have more one to one relationship on them, which is kind of what I would love to have. I would sometimes they. My therapist would be my guru who which is interesting. He's little. Hindu man who actually knows Rom dos and he follows. Yoga Onda who is another? He's Uganda. He's passed away, but he was responsible for bringing yoga to the Western world and stuff like that, so so it's Kinda cool that I. Will make bringing your. Your? Here late. The you make a Lotta money out of that. Actually. What is interesting is that I believe it was brought to California I. And he built a Like a an Osram or a shrine or a learning center, however, one of the first people who really got into meditation and Yoga. was A M- major businessman back a billionaire back in the day. Who it a lot of the projects. I mean they lived quite like simple. And stuff! But certainly you know gotta make some money. But I was funded through mostly donations. Still one Yogi Nanda. taught is a you know once a year. I think it's an August or July that everyone from around the world flies to California for like this week long retreat since. This please. It's huge. To all Coley smoke and there's other centers across the world I. Believe as well maybe where he originally was from so have you ever heard the book SH-. Was it biography of Yogi. The. What was his name? Apple the Steve John. His favorite only book that he ever kept was autobiography of a Yogi. A lot of life, lessons and stuff, but that was written. By believe I think. Promotional Uganda has the last thing that he goes by. It's like that one book that everyone should read. Things off your ovaries. And they he gave know they gave it added his funeral and stuff like that. And, then the arrest to you! I mean Shit so mainly as A couple of weeks ago. You did talk about weed on this thing on told me. That yeah, so that was really interesting. I've I. was asked by the People at the coast. If I wanted to be on a panel, just A. Openly chat about cannabis and. At first I felt like a little bit weird, because I'm just a regular Gal, who smokes weed? But. It's also been something that like. It's been part of my life for twenty years, and then I've never. Been, I've never really shied away from it or hidden the fact that I did that which I understand is. A lot of people don't have that then that same privilege I guess but I. Yeah, it was just like a a great panel just to chat about like our experiences with cannabis, good and bad where we see that the industry is going, and even so daily practice and stuff as well so it was great everyone there is pretty stone I didn't I was like sitting on the stage and I knew I'd be nervous and I. Wouldn't I I also like I know my limits. And I play within it so I'm more of like an at home stone. But it was it was excellent am. Really got to hear from a lot of awesome people like in the city as well who are doing. Some good things. Do you. Do you consume cannabis? In that. No No, I'm like I've tried it. Yeah, but. His thing though the thing we've means that I always overdo things. Either I WANNA. Try something like if I'm gonNA. Eat a doughnut. It's going to like six. So. The first time I tried it over. Did it yet? You know should. Chill. So mainly, but now he's legal. Maybe now I'm GONNA. I overdid it and it wasn't a very good. And so does this parts of Mita everytime I? Do you want to relieve that? But. How do you feel about when when you knew it was going to be legalized wars tonight? Happy. You know it's a it's a weird. It's scheduled to drug wish. Yet. But it just really goes to show. How well. Marketing and corporations and stuff. Are Able to influence government and populations and things like that so. You know the great thing about the Internet is that we now have access so much information at our fingertips that we can see that. Back with Reefer, madness and I think it was like the fifties and sixties that they were really trying to paint this picture of how bad cannabis was for you and Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah but now I I liked the potential for not just for consumption, but for hemp products because it's durable sustainable, it has a short growth cycle a gross quite quickly like that so. I think now that with the Lita. The legalization, a lot of those barriers are gonNA fall down, which is great for the economy, but also. I like the idea that there's a lot of people who've been probably feeling a lot of shame that have been using cannabis, maybe for medicinal reasons, and now they're like fuck all y'all my you know, it's always glaucoma or whatever by. What, do you? What do you need a prescription young glaucoma? Fourteen you're fine. I love that idea that now there's not going to be this. Cloud of shame. You know I know that I'm very lucky that I. speak quite openly about a lot of things in my life, but there are a lot of folks who like my mom. She a couple years ago. She kind of she broke her back like micro fractured it and the only thing that helped her. Was this lead oil that we'd put on an? I can't tell anyone about it, and then you know. She's just been skipping down the streets slack. Easing, but it's those types and mum. It's okay. She just you mind me saying that, but. that's so liberating. and to live in shame for something like a plant. Yeah, right now like. Seems so trivial. died from it not like I know what say say, see the experience I had was. We'd like prescription drugs. I wouldn't be here today. Because yeah. And that's another thing that like so for example, the Nova Scotia College of medical doctors there really been told in the last few years to cut back on writing prescriptions for things like opioids. Focusing and more proactive things so. You know even the fact that a lot of doctors are on the side of cannabis especially CBD on psychoactive component. It's awesome to hear to hear that because because it's such a different way and non addictive. Knows not thing about pain medicine. Yeah, it feels good I now. I went home. My wisdom to pooled, and you know you're drug, but when that happened, so you don't feel it and then did send you away with this thing in the yellow bottle. And taking when you need it or whatever right? And then whatever it gave, you starts swaying out. Daniela fuck you hurts. It hurts you. Take this thing sweater girl too many Slam Holy Shit Yeah who am I? So I. Can you know when when you have such an experience? You understand how easy it is. To these things, and then when you get a doctor that Oh yeah genome. I'm just going to refill this thing it's. Easy to just fall into. I'm kind of happy that the family behind especial oxy. Big Guy I was reading this article on. The Dick so I. Don't know too much about the family. Except for it was just a big money making. Without worrying about the consequence, everybody needs families. A balloon passed off so there was this guy. I think is like a modest Yobo. Really opened the company. He sends a memo that was leaked and it was saying that we can't be blamed for the people that getting. Addicted to ask thing the. Folder by people. Even say that because I, will i. You expect an internal memo and he won't go out. Go Out Yeah Anyway I'm GONNA and with this. The wave was the story behind, do we? Know. So There's a line in a song by the band called the weaker thin. That's s s something like how I. Don't know what to do with my hands. When I talk to you and how you don't know where to look so you look at my hands, and so like I never know what to do, and my hands, and so it just became this thing like this. This and and got kind of grew to be like this awkward wave and I. Don't know what to do, but a couple years ago, I stopped shaving underarms I, was just like so tired with with it, and I've spent thousands of dollars like elect like like hair, removal and stuff, but my sister was grossed out by it so I used to do it. Because she could not handle having like Harry underarms. We'll just gross around, so there definitely was like another layer of it as well but then. It's kind of silly, because just like people kind of caught onto it, and so I will get like messages of people just like the Lindsey Wave Hi. It's just funded Il. I'm going to India. We did Lindsay Wave Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. This is the blackout podcast. Thanks for listening.

Halifax WanNa cannabis engineer TA Lindsey Vancouver Uganda dopamine cortisol Sherman acade- Nova Scotia Kubota Nova Scotia fort. mcmurray ABC Complex regional pain syndrome Holocene
Swapping ciggies for vaping

RNZ: The Detail

20:48 min | 1 year ago

Swapping ciggies for vaping

"Mm-hmm. I'm Alex, and this is the detail today, the government's new push to get smokers vaping. If you're trying to quit smoking. Good use of the can help you quit lawn to family to the phone, lawful comfy for the to recognize that. Well, it's about teen years old now. But at the time was part of the government's campaign to stop smoking. You've probably heard of the lofty goal of a smoke free outed or by twenty twenty five. Smoking. But if smoking is Intel fuchsia is vaping, people looking to kick the habit can still call quit line advertise the but the associate health minister, genus Alexa, sees vaping is a pretty useful tool to quit too. And so the government's just launched vaping, fix dot health dot indeed. A sort of pro vaping site, this, we've side is to provide credible information, and vaping as for adults. We're not actually promoting that young people who do not smoke take vaping. But what we do know as that vaping. Quit tool for smoking, actually works well for adults. But some say there's just not enough research on the effective. Aping long-term to justify promoting it. We the vaping causes cancer like cigarettes, and on to do is still an unanswered question. That uncertainty is why the Asmaa and raise Patry foundation is questioning the government's decision to promote vaping as a way to quit smoke. On a new website chief, executive Latisha owed viruses, vaping poses its own problems. She says was starting to get more evidence than vaping causes health problems, like lung tissue damage with the think the government should be suggesting it or not vaping as undeniably now a thing. So distant cream straight. It's central Clint. It's just coming up to lunchtime. So prime smoke time for people looking around I can deeply say, people smoking on the work done here. I did possibly he will aping as well which is something years ago you might notice saying. Being udon as an adviser for an anti-smoking group, and an X good on tobacco control. First question to him, winded vaping become so mainstream generation of cigarettes, probably been around just over a decade in and usually limit their original generation, it looked kinda like sick, a lot actually like an electric cigarette. But he's probably in the last three to five years that actually they really started to take off now. I'm kinda new generation of products these fourth-generation the tank systems that you may see people walking around with which refundable and quite considerable, and it's probably shifted from sort of under percentage of people they think to just under about five percent. And that's that's really been in the last probably three to five years, the actual vapor self. How does it work? Well, it stimulates what you find enough Mer in Hyannis size proclaimed glycol. Mix. That is then has maybe flavoring and nicotine added to it, and then it's heated up and vaporized. And then the vipers inhale so it delivers nicotine to the system in a very similar way to a cigarette but a key difference being that it's not combusted when he's makes grace the smoke that does how on the by product of setting something inhaling it to get the active ingredient, which is nicotine into the bloodstream whereas Vache device delivers nicotine into the bloodstream in a similar way to being hired, but it doesn't have all the same very harmful byproducts of combustion, that you get a cigarette. Every cigarette is doing damage. This is part of the old may not be from the heart smoking out dribble sticky and click dangerous fatty deposits. They came and typical cigarette include melda hide used to preserve bodies lead. Ammonia and arsenic is doing you. Call quit line on eight hundred seventy eight seven seven night. So when you take out the smoke, how much less harmful does that make vape compared to a conventional cigarette. Well, rookie their best tonight amendment, which is got pretty broad scientific consensus. It's a vaping around about five percent harm of, of a cigarette. So not the homeless and not one hundred percents safe, but they're substantially less harmful than than cigarettes, and smoking, and there is that is it on the lungs or the throat will, what part of Epping is to harmful well, many things, still relatively new. So I'm not cigarettes where we've got. Early seventy years worth of population. Never data on the impact of it. We don't have that yet. So I think the estimates have been based around what's known about some of the chemicals that are, that are in the vapor, for example, a couple of the flavorings have been known to have slightly high levels of potentially causing engine. So the cinnamon flavors is one for presumptive. But it's often just unique to some of those particular flavors. But Mason, what's known about the chemicals that are invite devices in the mechanism by, which that, that live it, it would be about five percent of the home. I'm not home probably being around potentially to that to their spirits system. And some of the irritation might come we sing now the government, they just launched a new looking at vaping fix so promoting vaping as a mechanism to quit smoking. What do you make of that, on think it's a really positive move? And I think actually, you know, Newseum probably amongst if. Not the most aggressive country in terms of actually communicating people around using vaping to quit smoking. I think what's really good about what the government's taking evidence based approach, and actually, you know, a well reasoned well-considered view of, of the homes that they think compared to smoking and looking at a harm reduction approach very similar to how Colo problem gambling Hamad up Shen, and I think what's particularly good about this is it's a government, providing impartial advice to people about switching device to, to reduce home. It's a trusted source of good information that's going to help people, hopefully make when folks choices they're going to substantially reduce their risk of dying or getting sick from smoking, although I guess the thing is, we don't know the effect of this, in the long-term, they've only been around ten years, you say, so should the government Basit Houston people look at this, if we don't know if in fifty years on the to out to be terrible for us. I think that I mean the, the key. Differences. But the cigarettes is that, you know, we're now entering into fifth generation in products in less than a decade with your new kind of contained sealed cartridge, what people vaping today is quite different to what they think three years ago. And so I'm not cigarettes, which pretty much remained unchanged since nineteen fifties. It's actually really hard to measure, what long term impact compete. However, that comes with an opportunity because as with finding things cinnamon flavors may have home, what good regulation can do. If we find a constituent of this product is harmful, or potentially harmful. The matrix technology means that could be removed or changed very unlike cigarettes making a highly modifiable, which means actually, the risk profile could be adjusted over time if they were found to have an unknown risking each what does the government have to do to make sure it still has control over being able to. Remove the harmful bits as they are found does it feel like this is something that could slip awareness, like what happened with tobacco. Yeah. I think to an extent, I mean, we'll ready behind a little bit on it because you doesn't have any law that governs program products at the moment. And so, you know what happened over the last few years is developing knock, it literally exploded in a completely unregulated. What so on one hand it means that the people making these products designing them doing it with the consumer nine and design things that smoke is what, but on the other hand, if the regulator keep up the danger is that it suddenly becomes the wild west out there. Nevada ping markets of divine by things like that, especially vape stores vapors, who have a reasonably high of control of the hell they sell it looks and Hutu, if we not catching up with what's happening in mocking, how we regulate and help shepherd it in a way that's going to help people stop smoking. Suddenly every can Harry is gonna stop selling products, not necessarily in an ethical. Or responsible way. And that's when we, we lose control over the opportunity to reduce hub, and the end of last year. The government came out with plans to regulate the vaping market, his genie Eliza. We will be introducing proposals into the house next year to regulate vaping and smoking smokeless tobacco products and out your New Zealand. The minister wants to Ben vaping in buzz, restraints, and weren't places just like smoking, but would be allowed in specialist are eighteen shops, the proposals continue to make vaping products available to adults who smoke while protecting those who don't smoke, especially young people. Regulation is and trying basically putting laws in place to dictate who can sell vapes. How much tech should be slept on the top, and where you can actually vape Bridget. Woods is another tobacco control expect, and he works at the department of public health at Otago university and his co director of spy at twenty twenty five another anti smoking work. We're just hey, see regulation all of this. I think the trick is getting a balance between making these products widely available to smokers, 'cause they want to quit, but not making them widely available marketed to children and people who don't smoke because we don't want them to start fading. And that's what a lot of the debaters about how how'd you strike balance people who are very, very enthusiastic about vaping will obviously tend to go towards more light-touch regulatory approach whereas people who are more cautious and worry about the effects on children in the long term health effects. We'll go for more stringent regulatory approach, and that's where the debates is about, what's your take because this is an area, you know, pretty well you've seen the research that is available to take on how we should regulate this. Well, I'll say this to things we, we do have a responsibility to protecting children. And I think that is, is an absolute. Imperative. So, so I'm I guess I'm a bit more weighted towards the let's be cautious about this, and, and make sure that what we do we minimize the risk of young people taking up these products. That's too. That's why I tend to fool. But, you know, people have different different opinions on that, and there's a perfectly legitimate debate the other side of Holocene regulation that I think we shouldn't forget, and I think this is one of the concerns with these cigarettes. This is nothing to do with these agreements being bad technology, or the photo visa aggress. Is that what we do need to do with Posey regulation, is make sure that we carry on strictly introducing interventions that will reduce smoking, and one of the dangers with this huge debate. About e cigarettes is we forget about the things that we can do other things that we can do to reduce making it, it can distract us. So if you ask smokers acquitting, why, why are you quitting? Why did you quit? The two main reasons they give cigarettes rid expensive. And as worried. About health fixed now. The health effects are just true, but those health effects have been drawn to the attention of smokers, for example, through the health warnings and public education campaigns, the cost of cigarettes is because of tobacco tax because cigarettes. I'm not that expensive unless you know most of the cost of cigarettes is actually in the tax. So the two things that are driving people to want to quit making cigarettes, expensive and reminding people about the very real effects of smoking. So if we let off on those on that side of things then e cigarettes going to a gun to struggle, I would say, because people have not got the drivers to want to stop smoking, so as well as coming to a very carefully determined decision about how we balance those two challenges of helping smokers by making cigarettes vailable, but making sure that we minimize the risk of children and young people starting to use them. So that's smoke free areas, plain packaging increasing the cost. Health warnings. Although source of things we need to keep doing those into, we need to apply those things that are being done to cigarettes to, to a need vapes and plain packaging to still people starting well again, this thing about getting the balance. Right. Has has to be determined. Because with with veeps it's more nuance with with cigarettes. I would say, we want to do everything possible to discourage people from smoking cigarettes. I'm particularly young people from starting to smoke so plain packaging big health warnings smoke free areas, putting up the price all of those things help reduce the chance that young people start making with aping. It's more balance because we actually want to encourage smokers to try to use them to quit if they've if they can't quit using other things if the thing that works for them. And I'm for those who really can't quit using nicotine com. Stop smoking, then we need to encourage them to switch to products like that. So if you put them in plain packaging and. And control the marketing things you might say, well, that's, that's not helping. Yeah. Well, if it's a case of trying to convince people to try does the government need to start subsidizing vapes, does the government need to start allowing doctors to give to patients free of charge. We need to look at that side of things. Well, some people keep that one of the problems, very pink from the point of getting doctors to, to get them out, as when a lot of smoking cessation products, the nicotine patches, and gums, and all that sort of thing, I've been through a whole lot of regulatory hoops to prove that safe to use the safe to be prescribed as a sort of foam. Cicle product vaping is really is, is a consumer product, and so, two doctors to prescribe, it some maybe happy to do that. But some may say will this hasn't been through those regulatory hurdles I'm not sure this is safe, but can be a bit more complex, but I think subsidies could be one way of going. But, but the other ways just to make sure. The sort of regulatory framework pushes people away from smoking, and towards vaping. If they want to do that, I put the regulation question to be in from s win. We regulate this, and we are seeing moves towards at some announced to the end of last year. Should we be treating it as a cigarette or should we be treating it differently? For example, if there's a smoking ban bus stop should that include vapes. I think it does need to be treated differently. I think the danger for for example, those going, well, everywhere you can't smoke, you, you can't vape, and you have to go to the smoking area, if it correcting, higher risk of people who'd come up cigarettes onto bites standing around with a bunch of people smoking, and potentially relapse thing, not definitely not what, what I think also that the opportunity to shift people to vaping by using as an alternative when they can't smoke as well. You know, and this certainly good evidence from the history things like nicotine gum, you. If you give people this stuff is gonna to withdraw this cigarette when they can't smoke it increases the chunks, they're gonna use that product that help completes making later. All I don't think the other part of it is currently no evidence of home from second Vate, unlike secondhand cigarettes. So there isn't really a good public health argument to ban Vipin. It's a nuisance argument. There's no evidence of hand has any hall metal and I think that's an important point because that's something people say a lot when you bring up vaping as you say people driving in these cloud of smoke coming out because it does produce a lot of smoke. You would assume that it's, it's not good for you to be breathing in. But you say that's not the case. I think everybody you say blowing a big white cloud is probably to who they don't know that doing it. And you know, this has been nitrous of product that they are quite. And, you know, the ones about it clouds of smoke Irany, one type of product, visit huge number that very disgraced that you don't see cloud coming out when someone's exciting as well who the three to five percent of people that have anything you've talked a lot about exposes. But what evidence do we have that shows it as, as vaping? Yeah. Well, the I mean, it's we're still pretty new to measuring what's happening with typing in New Zealand. I think the best thing to around the price for the current vapor is probably from the Newseum healthy lot stuff survey so around Hof, people might invite around forty seven percent of people who has ever. But I need around three and the people who have never smoked. So in vaping is almost exclusively people who smoke or are smokers, you know, looking at countries where they go more mature, they've been markets and the, the UK being one that's quite similar to, to in, in terms of the policies environment. The, the price on the remained the site, actually, I think, up tubes into his there and never smokers and the rest of the former smokers, or people vape, and smoke, because they're either trying to quit through vaping, or they used vaping to manage, when they when they can't smoke, you know, I would say unlikely that that's going to change particularly but what we do need to do. And this is where the government campaign is a really great thing is really helped to kinda ship. It people do smoke into using less harmful turn. It's not putting together is this some sort of sweetener, we need to offer people to get them onto it? Well, I think one thing about it is, is substantially less expensive. Bin sniping cigarettes, news, in the least affordable anywhere in the world. Vaping probably about tencent. The cost of, of smoking cigarettes. I you know, I think note, I knew that never helping sensitive is also pretty strong financial incentive around switching to unless home for Nick thing productivity. Well, do you think the goal of being smoke free, whatever that means by twenty twenty five is achievable without vaping? I would say it would be hard to get without vaping. I mean in my vaping has been possibly the most disruptive thing to smoking in, in recent years. And the reason I think it's been disruptive because it's given smy something they want. It's given them a no medicalising. Why if accessing nicotine in a way that they can notify away the value like that to live, is it as well as a cigarette nicotine? Addicts is the smoke that kills and you're looking at this is good as a cigarette littering nicotine, but without smoke, you know, it's not likely home, this about it is not five cent less harmful than a than a than a cigarette. So I think it's one of the most viable alternatives for smokers, whatever really than the cigarette and speaking of cigarettes, how many people are still smoking, outed, or well the answer to that is thirteen percent of Ed Oates, light up everyday. Down from twenty one percent a decade ago. That's the detail today. I'm Alex esta, the detail is brought to you by newsroom dot co dot in made possible by the Arendt's it indeed on the innovation fund the subscribe bus into stay across the detail every day. And if you're an apple, please leave us a writing is it helps other listeners find us. And of course, we're on Facebook and Twitter to this episode was engineered by wrong poet, and produced by Alexia. Russell cocky, theon. Oh.

nicotine vaping Ben vaping twenty twenty Alex esta New Zealand Intel Alexa Patry foundation executive Latisha Ed Oates Nevada Epping tencent Holocene Basit Houston Mason
186 How an Auto Mechanic Can Have Heart with Brian Moak

Mere Mortals Unite

28:02 min | 2 years ago

186 How an Auto Mechanic Can Have Heart with Brian Moak

"Welcome to the businesses that cave podcast your host. Julianne Sullivan has searched the globe for businesses that have created engaging and inspiring workplace cultures. In each episode. You'll find ideas to implement into your own organization for better recruitment retention and customer. Loyalty. Are you ready to create and sustain a bit of business culture? Then let's go in three two one. Hello listeners Julianne Sullivan here. Thank you. Once again for choosing to spend your time with us on businesses that care where changing the lives of the people in the C suite, and everyone they serve sheer this podcast with your colleagues and get ready to get some free and valuable ideas to transform your workplace and your success. And don't forget to subscribe, anywhere. You listen to podcasts. So you'll never miss another. Great episode. You can find a son I tunes Google play Spotify or anywhere, you listen to podcasts and to make it easy. You can always go to businesses that care podcast dot com. My guest today is Brian Moke owner of heart certified auto care. A first for me in this industry. Heart stands for helping everyone achieve reliable TRAN. Aspartame nation and his way of doing business has earned him a ninety nine percent retention rate. I have my own car, folks. And they're like family to me. And it's because they're good to me on top of keeping my car running. Well, Brian lives by the to customer mantra one that walks through the front door and one that walks through the back door to clock in. He believes that in order to succeed in business. You must treat both equally. Now, you know, why wanted him on the show? Welcome brian. So happy to have you with us today. Thank you. It's great to be here. You know? I would think that many people out there might say, wow. Repairing cars who would care about their workforce in that industry. But you are coming forward and saying yes, you can. Yes. You you most certainly can in and you most certainly should. Yeah. Absolutely. I see behind you. There is a a poster there, which course, nobody else can see, but me, and it says I believe, and is that something that you wrote for your company or no that is something that I saw believe it or not in a nationwide fast food chain. And I found it online, and I downloaded it. And I was able to actually I bought it at frame, we do have an I believe statement similar to that. But I have written. I was on our website. And it's something that we live buy out. Great. We'll make sure to have a copy of that in our show nuts. Bryan. Even in this business for a long time. When did it dawn on you? And maybe it was from the very beginning that you gotta care about your workforce as much as you care about your customer. Well, you know, it's interesting I grew up in this business. And this is as a child growing up in the business. I would watch my father interact with is. Employs interactive as customers, and he was a mechanic. And so when you grow up the child of a mechanic, you learn what it is to be that. And you know, he taught me that whether you're the CEO of the company or the entry level person that is creating the bathrooms the same amount of respect is due. And and so you know that just felt like a natural progression. In the way, that I have led my life in the way that I treat people and absolutely the way that I guide mentor coach lead, my company people come into your company ever. And it's so odd to them to be treated that way that it takes him a bit of time to get used to it. I think people come in there kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. And so what I think happens is they come in. And then they find out from their coworkers that this is the real. And you know, we provide a great environment. He we pay way about scale. We have great benefits we go above and beyond for our voice. I have you know, youthful break rooms that are stocked with food at every location. So that nobody should ever go hungry, and it's a little bit. I opening to somebody that comes in MMA place, and their comment was while I was lucky to get heat at the last shop. Right. So, you know, it's it's a big difference. It's a it's a huge difference. What are some of the unique ways that you take care of your employees? So like, I said, you know, we pay above scale. And that'd be the first thing that would come to mind, the most tangible, of course, of, but we you know, I I have insurance in my business you pay ten dollars a week. We pick up the rest, if you have, you know, financial struggles at home, we have a program that that gives the ability to take a loan of anytime up to two weeks, pay and. You can't take more money until that's eight back, but at anytime zero interest, you can come to us and say we're having struggles we had a kid that had a healthy situation, or we have a birthday party that cost more whatever it is. And so we we have a two up to two weeks. You can take a forward and you pay us back over time. It's not you don't need to pay us. Right that right. More money until until it's not like a loan shark. No, no, no, no, you're zero interest. We we do a date night in the kind of the miserable part of our winter in Chicago in February where everyone is not nobody's happy around that time of year. So we do a date night where you know, you can come as a single person you come with your significant other come with best friend. That's fine. Whoever it is. And we do something fun and unique we really try to create magical moments in that in that environment done murder mysteries. We've done concerts. We've done, you know, just real fancy dinners that maybe they wouldn't get to experience. Otherwise, we did an indoor skydiving once was pretty cool that place called I fly or sorry tonight. Yeah. Keep driving by that. Yeah. Yes. We did that. And then we do a huge family day. You know in the summer where we typically we've rented out either summer camp, or you know, some sort of environment with the kids in the, you know, the employee can just go have a blast. We hit up all of our big suppliers. We get them to donate huge prizes. And then we do bingo. And we do, you know this week, though, the wheel that, you know, we spend in its ally weren't chin, exactly. And so, you know, we get a trip once a year of the guy someone wins that that's a big deal, you know, TV's and all sorts so we do that. And then we do a great holiday party. But you know, we said we were very flexible on, you know, people they need time off inter stand that, you know, just because they're employees. I don't own them. They they have lives and their time is responsible to me. But I'm responsible to them to provide a healthy safe. And compelling place to work, and because of it, it's you know, before excited to be here works damn here. We have a an average tenure of thirteen years, which in my industry is you know, it's not unusual heard. So what we're really proud of that. That's great. Yeah. I mean, right. That's the results of what you're doing. Is this retention rate from your customers, and how long and your retention rate of your employees. It is a very long time. I interviewed another gentleman Stephen Brown who has a pizza business, and I was shocked. They have pizza drivers that have been there for twenty years. And you know, gotta be doing something right to have somebody be a pizza driver for twenty years without question. Without question are our biggest success stories as far as people that have. You know, we have we have employees that are now master technicians. That started being a porter in a moving. Carjon washing cards or picking up parts and through mentoring programs. They've you know, they've become the best we have. And so that's something that that's that's the heart of of heart without question. Because it sounds to me like you're giving people tools and scales and opportunities to grow beyond. Maybe what they even thought was possible for them without question. You know, I I believe that business owners or managers have they fall into one of two trains of thought, and they look at employees as either an asset or tool, and I think that when you assets their job is to is to create a return. And so the way that you create a return is by developing by figuring. Out how to make a high performing sheet. And so I look at my employee's as SS company of my biggest asset. So we develop them we coach them. We get the train. We make sure that they have everything that they need tools wise, equipment, lice, whatever it might be. That's one way of looking at it. There are some ways some people that look at as a tool that you utilize until they burn out and you get a new one. And and that is something that, you know, look everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I just don't see long term sustainability. I also don't see that that motto would ever have someone saying I love my job. Right. And and the I love my job is what makes customer say. I love them as a business. Yeah. That's a real key there that this employee engagement idea. Absolutely, no doubt about it. Listen up if you don't know this audience re. Relates to your customer satisfaction without question without question. You know, my job as the owner of this company is to create an environment where my employees by what I'm selling. I sell to them. And if they buy what I'm selling than they do it incredible job of servicing and taking care of the people that make our lives possible, which are customers. So my job is not to sell the customers that walk in the front door. My job is to sell us at the back door. And if they buy what I'm selling or good to go, and they do so so far it seems. It's work. And right. That that's what you really look at is the success of the company and you've grown quite a bit. Right. We sure have wonderful. We started off as wants mall location and were were three now. And we're developed a franchise model that were were launching that's kind of slow going yet. But it's it's exciting. No, we've got a strategic plan that that we will have one hundred locations, and and so what makes me excited about that is not only will we take on franchisees that believe in the same type of values. We do in the way of treating customers. Both I in the second. But we'll create environments all over the country that a mechanic doesn't have to say boy, it was nice just to get heat. You know that? Yeah. That's a good story is, and that's that's something that that that means a lot to me. And and you know, I think that you can achieve everything you want and. You can also do it the right way. And. That's what I think our businesses been great model. Let sounds to me like what you've done is built a model. So nobody says I'm just a mechanic. You make them feel like they are apart of the entire system that makes the customer happy. You make them understand give them their WI without without question. And you know, I I love that. It's it's kind of a partnership, are you imminent virement that they cannot replace anywhere else. And they give me performance that anyone else would. Covet to have. So it's it's we work hand in hand. And I do my part, and they do there's we have a great product because of it. That sounds like a great partnership, and we'll talk about that more. When after we hear from our sponsors. Today's episode is sponsored by your corporate podcast is clear. Concise consistent messaging important in your organization. Would you like an innovative way to engage in form? And celebrate your workforce. Let us create a podcast that uniquely expresses. You're gonna culture customized for your unique goals to find out more sin and Email to info at your corporate podcasts dot com or call area code seven two four nine four two zero four eight six again that number is seven two four nine four two zero four eight six take your company too. The next level of success. I'm back with Brian Moke who has a very interesting ideas on how to run an auto care business. And I like what you just said before about that partnership. If you can remember what you said about what you give to them. And what they give to you. Sure. Are you asked me to repeat it? Yes. So I thought it was so good that I couldn't write it down that juris. So we work hand in hand. And so my job is to provide them with amazing environment that they can't replace anywhere. And their job is to provide me with performance that my competitors would buy for. And and nobody else has high-performance. We have I've seen what's out there. And I know what the industry does. And our our performance is three sometimes four times what what shops are doing. And so, you know, I do my job. They do there's and the result is incredible product. Keisha story. I'm sure there are people have come into your business in India shops, and you must have seen them transform jor because of how year serving them, meaning your employees. Can you share a story about that? So you know, we have a Holocene. That we have we have a strong non-discrimination also. And we believe that whoever you are. We wanna love you for that. And so, you know, oftentimes when someone who comes in, and maybe there they live in the margins they come in, and they feel kinda clammed up in. And you know, maybe they have a pretty strong on there. And there were not being authentic with the group or a really letting themselves out. You know, I don't know that would be one specific story, but there's been so many where. Or somebody comes in. And just they don't let out who they are. And once they see that they can be who they are that it's not someplace that you have to hide or be afraid of of of of anything. It's amazing how they come out of their shell. And you know, we have a credibly. I force of race of sexual orientation of religion of who whatever I mean, whoever you are. It's great. And so with that we've been able to create an environment where you know, we're we're we're kind of just all all colors of the rainbow. And it's it's it's been really really wonderful way for people to grow without have any sort of fear. In that regard. It sounds to me like you are, you know, I've been interviewing for several years now wonderful people in the C suite who run their companies, so well and have great cultures. And I have found that there are four top attribute survi- us that y'all have in common and one of those which sounds like what you're talking about is creating that safe environment for people to be who they are. And for people to speak up when things aren't going the way they're supposed to go. And when you do that while people can really perform at a higher level when they have that freedom. So I created these rules of the game. There's three of them and we live by it. And it's do the right thing. Do the best that you can and show people that you care, and if you live by those three things in this company, you're gonna do great. You're going to do. Absolutely great. You know, I believe you. You are entitled and should be who you are. We have a we have a respect policy. I can be who I am long as I don't force you. I don't impose who I am. And I don't expect you to impose who you are. We could have different beliefs. We still respect one another. And and that's what makes it great environment. And it's working here. Mitchell respect goes along way. That's right. Exactly. Right, sell you grew up in this environment. What do you think the hardest change was for you internally? And I was lucky enough to grow up in a business that really cared about people and cared about its customers and cared about doing the right of the right job in a great job. I don't know that I had a huge insurmountable obstacle. What what I think the biggest challenge was was taking it into the twenty first century. So, you know. Mechanics in general in the past in a more blue collar environment that still love their job. Didn't mean, they weren't saying homophobic jokes or a weren't you know, and have their girly posters up everywhere. You know, had you know, very hetero normative beliefs about gender roles. What that meant. And and and so I think that hard part was turning up the sensitivity in an environment where you're not supposed to be sensitive. Right. And so what I found, and what's interesting is that these men are far more sensitive than they put an exterior with than than than you believe to be and once that was allowed, and once it was opened up, and once we were having great conversations about this this type. Stuff. And you don't look something would come up, and we deal with it. And when we would deal with it. We would do it in a way that was respectful and kind and also set very clear standards and boundaries moving forward. You know, you just touch the hot stove. And if you do it again, it's going to burn you that type of situation, we really changed the culture, and and brought it as I said into the twenty first century, and let wonderful service you did not only fair company about for those individuals because it had to change their individual lives as well. I think so I hope so. Do they ever tell you? So. I bet in the beginning they did via think back. I mean, you know, how things go in the beginning. It's a gift or new exciting. And then two days later, it's an expectation. That's very funny. Right. You know, I've gotten used used to that of years, right? Right. And what about your customers? Did they give you feedback on how they're treated have? They do you have people who've been there for a long time that notice a difference and mention it without question. I get that all the time. I mean, we do a significant amount of customer follow up and one question that is critically important to me is as a customer. Did you feel that art was on your side? And and that that is critically important because that says every if we were on your side that means that we treated with respect guided you in the right direction. We, you know, did what was necessary done on timely manner. We you know, we we we were concerned with your budget all of the things that that is a question that is critically important. And that's question. We we we consistently score, you know, nine or ten and so. Anyone that works? Here would tell you that. I am a nut when it comes to performance. And so I will give you the world, but I have very high standards, and right, and those standards need to be met. And and if you can't beat them the first step is trying to help you see them. And then the second step is teaching you how to you know, maybe go out of so. Yeah, are I think customers would definitely say that they've noticed change, you know, with all of the later said I've talked to now I will tell you that most of them at least have expressed to me probably all of them feel this way. But what I get from them. And what they've expressed that they do have very high standards or. Yeah, it's not a slack world. But it's a very much give and take. If you give me this. I'm gonna give you this. And I'm gonna give you this. So you'll give me that. It's it's kind. around. It's not like if you I will. It's just a round circle. Right. You have high performance, we give our you know, employees space to be safe and grow and be whole people. And then you progress more and you bring more to the company, and it's just a like enough in a an Infinity symbol as opposed to a give and take it's not even like a give and take. It's just the way the world works. Yeah. Right. So I've heard that described as as as crazy, you know, it just keeps going round the wrong around. And so I don't look at what we do as a horse trading type environment, right? This is what's expected of me. And and I I will do my very best to deliver. And and you know, I have I don't I have the same expectations and standards of of you. That was a question. I was gonna ask you do have those same standards of you have you ever had any of your employees come up to and say, hey, Brian today, you weren't following your own roles. Absolutely. I I have been although I have really done a great job. I'll admit that that I I've done a great job in in managing my motions. Better over the last few years, I used to have a real temper which was kind of counter to how intuitive to the environment. I was trying to create a, but you know, pressure can do that to you, which is which is no no excuse by immunes. But I I would say that it's probably been two years or two and a half years before since I've lost my temperance business. And what I found is that was losing my temper because people were not living up to expectations that I was not clear about so so so how how I gotta be accountable. So I've gotten really really strategic in explaining what is expected of people helping them get their being very target driven ver very. Very transparent and in doing that. You know, everyone seems a little bit happier. They know it's expected them. They know when it's expected of and they know that if they're gonna mission they better that they shared that up front rather than after because if it's up front we can do something to help, right? And what a great example you've been again, one of the aspects ic- in the leaders, I speak with. Is that they are have made mistakes, and they're willing to say so and in their correction of themselves, they're setting a beautiful model for the rest of the people in their organization. I've a mentor that told me a while ago to create a log of lessons. Learn and it's interesting that is a thick book. I was coaching somebody yesterday. I've been coaching him. I think for about seven or eight months now. And he said, oh, there's another plaque. I'm going to put up in your honor. That's what he calls them. These these plaque moments where I tell him something goes, wait. I write that down your your. But yeah, again, like I said year setting that example of what you want your your people to be. So I always like to ask my guests. If I'm listening to this. And I unfortunately, have not gotten on the train of workplace culture being the utmost importance to me where do I start Brian? I would imagine you start the MIR. Good one I like that. I believe that accompanies culture is a direct direct representation of the owners personnel at great. We'll just leave it at that. I got one more question for you could be a toughie. What's your favorite food? I've lost eighty pounds. And I have a sweet tooth that won't quit. My favorite food is cake. I cannot stop. Well, you must have stopped a little bit to lose eighty pounds. So congratulations on that. And thanks so much for sharing your expertise in this industry. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having until next time. This is Julianne Sullivan saying thank you for taking the time in your day to be here. Remember, simple solutions can create big results go out there and make a difference. Brings boosting to the businesses that K podcast share it with your friends and colleagues at businesses that K podcast dot com. To learn more at Julianne Sullivan and receive free valuable information, go to Julianne Sullivan dot com. Join Julianne and changing your workplace one person at a time.

Brian Moke Julianne Sullivan Google Chicago Bryan Spotify CEO murder WI Holocene Stephen Brown India Keisha Mitchell eighty pounds twenty years two weeks ninety nine percent thirteen years
304 - AGU Part IV, To see an Ocean in a grain of a foram

Science... sort of

1:42:23 hr | 2 years ago

304 - AGU Part IV, To see an Ocean in a grain of a foram

"Can you guys hear all those little kids through my mic? I cannot. Okay. Good. Sounds like is like some fossils in rocks and stuff in my building. So there's always like middle schoolers running through it. It's terrible. Yeah. It's a happy place. Saint sort of dot com. You're listening to science sort of. Sort of you're listening to three hundred and four and our team. This week is age you part four to see an ocean in a grain of a forum. I'm your host Ryan. And join me to talk about things that are science things that are sort of science and things that wished they were science is once again, Patrick I there and Charlie feels like I was just on the Mike. Now, you know, guys, I can tell you're very impressed by my highly literary reference to auguries of innocence by William Blake in the theme for this week's episode. This is might be one of the themes. I have the most proud of I'm gonna go and call it now. Okay. Good, okay. To take pride in your work. Yeah. Yeah. We've been you know, even podcasting for over three hundred episodes. Eventually I got one I was happy with. So I think that's not a great ratio. But I will take the accolades as they are bestowed upon me. But before we get to that this week. We are featuring an interview I did with Heather Ford who interestingly enough was in grad school at Santa Cruz when this show was first beginning, which I believe we talked about in the interview. But it's kind of weird that like now ten years later, we're still talking to people that knew us newest win. Back before we'd huddle around a single snowball. Microphone in whatever room. We can hide ourselves in earthen marine sciences small world. So there is a pillow schlager offer. And she studies all let her I'll let her tell us in her own words. So this was a fun interview Heather was in town for edgy you. But the meeting was already kind of winding down by the time we were able to sit down and talk, and Heather has some friends in DC. So she knows the town a little bit. And so she actually suggested that we go to a brewery for the interview, and I was like a little nervous about it. And we kinda we picked a week night. That was hopefully, it will wasn't gonna be too crowded. It wasn't and the bartenders were fine. With me Senate got my stuff to record. And so we got to record at a brewery. So I'll be doing drinks segment with Heather that was recorded live in the interview. And then we're gonna take a break and come back into a drink segment with Charlie. So let's hear about Heather's science. So I'm being joined a post AG you by Heather L four. Dr Heather L Ford who is living in the UK as an any RC independent research fellow slash lecturer of environmental science at Queen Mary university of London in the school of Jaki and other thanks for joining us on the show. Thank you so much for having me Ryan. So you self identify as a paleo oceanographer. Yes. That's correct. Okay. So can you give us in broad strokes? What that means for the kind of research do parish Nagasaki tries to reconstruct ocean conditions in the past the route is sort of paleo, which means pass let's past Issoire vs is a direct translation what we do is. We use sediment from the bottom of the ocean, either organic proxies or fossils that we can find within the marine sediment to reconstruct either surface ocean conditions like temperature or carbon and also deep ocean characteristics. Like how water circulates in the deep ocean or how the ocean stores heating Parman over long periods of time. So. Can extend really good records can extend back sixty five million years in terms of high resolution records, and then there's you know, just sort of depends on the question that you're interested in in terms of which time period, your research, fossils, you get this. What like we see with that marine snow or it's just kind of things are constantly slowly drifting to the bottom of the ocean and building up over many years. Yeah. So marine snow is one of the major way that stuff gets exported from the surface ocean down to the bottom. So if you like look at a single particle falling through the ocean at electorally would take a really long time to get to the bottom of the ocean. According to like stoke settling law, but because things aggregate in the ocean with as marine snow. They actually move much faster than the bottom of the ocean. Also, there's a settling wall that's gonna get exactly. And you did your PHD work at recovering Santa Cruz. Right. Let's crackdown. We were stalking the halls together. When this show was being born. I remember I remember when you were starting to starting it up putting up fliers all our other department. So we've known each other for a while. I don't think I ever had you as a TA though. No, I don't think. So because you were doing your masters when I was doing my undergrad undergrad, so but I was working in Kacha slack. But whenever Paul didn't have money to fund me for a semester or quarter. He'd send me to gym. So I did work in Zakho. That's right. I did have my forum education and my time with the sediment. So is that the same kind of stuff you work on? Are you also doing ocean drilling? Well, now, we call ocean discovery, actually. Yeah. So the ocean drilling communities gone through a bunch of different names. It was called one of the first generations was the deep sea drilling program, and then it was the ocean drilling program. And then it was when they became more of an international consortium was international drilling program. That was I owed EP it's still I owed EP. But now, it's ocean. International ocean discovery program, and it's in part because they wanted to get away from the word drilling which house kind of oil connotations, but it's also just the breadth of science that they're doing is much broader now. So a lot of stuff that they've been focusing on is deep Buyum so figuring out what microbes are at the bottom of the ocean. And actually understanding that there's a huge pool of carbon just related to deep sea life deep-sea microbial life that we hadn't really understood before in one of those discoveries is really through ocean drilling. That we've been able to explore that it's over what I remember working in gyms lab, you would have these ocean cores that literally get sectioned out centimeter-by-centimeter. Right. And then within that one centimeter of core. Even part of a section of that one centimeter could be hundreds of forums. Yes. Yeah. So far for are these little protests that live in either the surface of the ocean or the bottom of the issue, and they make their homes, essentially, their shells out of calcium, carbonate and. Yeah. Depending on where you are in the ocean. It could just be like a forum sands like he would go to the beach, and you have these little forums. That are about the size of a single grain of sand. It could just be entirely that. Or if you go to someplace like in the middle of the ocean where the only stuff that kind of gets into the middle of the ocean is just dust. It could just be all just fine grain silt and dust that sort of thing. Yeah. It really depends on where you are. Okay. So where do the majority of your samples that you're working with come from? So I worked a lot in the Pacific. Most of my PHD was looking at changes in the tropical Pacific. So looking at changes in tropical Pacific conditions over the last five million years, but I also looked at changes in variability around the southern oscillation from the most recent time, the Holocene so the last glacial maximum, and so did you actually what I would do is. I would take those single grains of sand. And I would a Blake them with a laser. So it just like. I wanna talk about this because I love this laser. Yeah. I've gotten to use one of these laser ablation machines before as well. And I think it's maybe the most fun scientific instrument for me, it feels like getting to pilot. The death star pointing this laser at this thing and lasting it. Yeah. No every time. I would set up the laser like the first time you do like your calibration or the standard. I would be like. Because it was just so it was just so exciting to be able to to do to work with a laser super cool. And then just the analytical capabilities of looking at something so tiny. I mean, these are these are. I mean, you're literally making spots on something the size of a single green stand. This is like tiny tiny and figuring out the chemical composition of that that one fire anymore wondering what wait wouldn't that destroy the specimen? Yes. It is the destructive analysis. Yes. It is. Yeah. But you you end up having these tiny little holes in the forums you and I were both featured recently on AG use the bridge for national fossil day. And you sent them a photo of what what it looks like when you've blasted the same for apple time since I will in the show notes to that. Yeah. For people to go check out. And so once it's been blasted by the laser what kind of data pops out for you to then I'm mostly looking at minor and trace element data. So these formula further made out of calcium carbonate, but things like magnesium and strontium mole substitute. Shoot for the calcium. And then a case of magnesium. That's actually that substitution for calcium. It's actually temperature dependent route. So you can use the magnesium calcium ratio to reconstruct things like temperature, and so what I what I did is I essentially used populations of these single shells these form Niffer to reconstruct temperature variability using the magnesium to calcium ratio of these little laser spots. Essentially, okay. Is this species Pacific as well? Because I know when I've worked in forum labs like we had to not only gently extract the fossils from a very fine grain, sediment, which we were using like diluted Calgon solutions. So like almost like bubble bath, right baby, soap sort of thing. And then once we did that we still had to go through and pick out the individual genus level forum looking for Loyd. I think was the one gym. Yeah. So that the same thing with like, it hopes like oxygen and carbon the minor and trace elements are also species specific, so yeah, I compare it to looking at. When you you put these out on a tray, and you look at them underneath a microscope. And I compare it to like looking for a single breed of dogs when you've got like you're looking for all the border collies that you have to Wade through sea of like Saint bernards in Boston terriers and schnauzers just for the border collies, or whatever whatever I said. But yeah, just that one particular breed or species or genus that you're interested in having done. It takes hours in your eyes are exhausted. How fun it's pretty time consuming or it can be I got to a point where I could set up my laptop like kind of angled sort of almost behind the stereo scope, it's like it'd be like watching that flicks through the stereo school. When I lifted my is up for now when I was doing my post doc at Lamont, I literally watched all six seasons of Gilmore girls while constructing one record at one site. That's that's how much picking time. It took. My wife's doing a good more girls. Rewatch, you know, it was one of those things that I missed out on when it was when it was actually on TV. So felt like something on I needed to some cultural experience I needed to catch up on. And I don't wanna make your works on like total tedium and dreary because do also get to go out to see your paleo Chicago for you get to spend time on the ocean. So you also when you're going on those cruises. I saw that you was reading up that you take like these two-month expedition is that when the drilling or the sampling is happening or what's. Yeah. A lot of the ocean. Material is either collected. On kind of shorter cruises or month on cruises or even a week or two, but the main program that I was talking about earlier the ocean discovery program. Those expeditions are two months long and often times you don't have a port. Call like you are on the ship in those are the same. Polls. If I can curse. Bleep button ready. Okay. Let's go. Same people that you'll see for not just the same people that you will see for like, two months. So you'd better be nice to everybody. Yeah. I heard a story about a woman who is doing work on my steps in tuna. She was doing compound specific stuff where you look at like, individual minoa acids, stabilized, you within that amino, credibly powerful, and my visors like, oh, you should do that too. And I'm like, nobody's done even the basics onslaught. Let's start a little more simple than that. But it sounded like she the absolute best experience on the cruise because our entire job was to wake up in the morning, go fishing. Yeah. Catch a giant tuna take a couple of grams of tissue. Yeah. And then give it to the cooks. Yeah. I'm sure the cuts were like thank you wouldn't on board loved her eating like fresh tuna. In a couple of the cruises that I've done in Equatorial Pacific. That's not exactly what happens you, go fishing or at night. Usually when you're working on deck, you have these huge floodlights. So you end up being like this little beacon of biological activity because things like squid or anything sort of visual predators will come and just swarm the boat. So we would get things like Kalmari in the evening, and then the the Machi Mahy, and it was it was pretty tasty. So it was the boat working twenty four hours a day to collect data shift work. Yeah. Often times so either it sorta depends on on how the scientists does it. But either you'll have an eight hour shift or twelve hour shifts. So a lot of times I'll work from like midnight to noon or noon to midnight or some combination of eight hour shifts kind of but everybody kind of rotates through or you're just given one shift for the entire time. But even on like shorter cruises that I've been on that have been like four or five days when you're on site to collect material you have. Be absolute kinda sleep when you can get burnt out by the entered you kind of get in a rhythm. You definitely sleep for a long time. Once you get back to to land. And I saw one time I did this cruise in the Santa Barbara basin. And like, you know, you either eat sugar caffeine or something like that to make you yourself. Stay awake by the end of this four day cruise I had gained like, I don't know six pounds and jelly bellies because every single jelly belly has like five or six calories. And I was just like shoving him into my mouth the stay awake. And I didn't realize how calorific they were when I was in undergrad Santa Cruz hot peppers. I would I was needing to like pull him under stay awake. I would like a hot pepper. My mouth would just be on fire. And I was like I can't I can't sleep for him. Just totally Ouch. Yes. We'll 'cause like what's the spiciness goes I feel like the spiciness of leave my mouth before the caffeine. Would if I started drinking songs rattling. Yeah. Game the system that way, right right doing as much damage. Well, I mean. Yeah. So you got on these. Cruises and you're out there for four days or two months or whatever. And then that's when you're collecting these c- course, like what are some of the places you've gone, and why why were those places chosen as the sites to go sample one of the creases that I went on with this place called the line islands, which is a set of islands slash atoll's or deep sea mounts that are in the central Pacific. And the reason that that was interesting. There was basically no material there from the central Pacific at all. But it ends up being this key place for understanding some El Nino, southern oscillation dynamics. So there's two different flavors of only new southern oscillation. There's kind of the big ones that you think about like ninety seven ninety eight only know where you have this huge temperature anomaly in the over by Peru, but you can also get this kind of this mixture el-nino event where actually some of the processes or some of the temperature anomalies are in the central Pacific itself. So we went there specifically to kind of understand what the. Average conditions of this particular area were and then also understand how the variability in that particular region changed over the last one hundred thousand years or so hundred and fifty thousand years that length of time looking at sediment cores over that range is that about average for a study you would do or do you go longer. Sure, I go I go longer because all I've done records up to about five million years old. But it really kind of just depends on the question. Like one of the questions that I was interested when I was doing my PHD was and so very ability, but stands for the El Nino southern oscillation just so the records that I generated before I need to graduate. We're just for the the most recent Holocene in the last glacial maximum, but I did have interested in looking at on the southern oscillation farther back in time. But again, I had to graduate. So yes projects often get cut off just because. Okay. I'm done. Yeah. No. And another graduate student since pick that up her name's Sarah white. She's also at Santa Cruz, and she's done really great job with that. With generating those. Records. So, yeah, it's awesome. I forgot to ask when you were talking about the magnesium. Calcium ratios, how do you control for the fact that the ocean temperature varies along the vertical height of the ocean? Well, actually, you can use how different form an live in different parts of the ocean to your advantage. So when they're making their shells. They essentially record the chemistry of the water that they live in. So the temperature of the water they live in. So he can look at formula for that live at the very surface of the ocean formative for that live like a thousand meters or four thousand meters informative her that live at the bottom of the ocean, and whatever their depth habitat preferences, you essentially get a temperature signal from that depth as really cool. So not only are you getting a record through time. You're also getting a record of height in the ocean. Right. Exactly. What kind of results are you finding like how much variability is there in halio Shen currents like how much is the ocean changing when humans aren't forcing it to do? So I mean, it can it can change a lot for instance. One of the things that I've really been interested in is understanding the thermoquiet through time. So the thermic line is this area of the ocean. In upper part of the temperature rapidly changes with depth. It's a large thermal stratification kind of layer in the ocean. It's shown scuba divers. Could it right? Yeah. In some places so in places like the Equatorial Pacific or an upwelling regions. You can go client, you know, twenty forty meters or something like that. And I think most basic dives you're allowed to for or something like well forty feet. But yeah, it's something that you could feel if you were just recreational dives that have gone down to eighty nine hundred. Yeah. Mean there's not depending on the water quality. There may not be as might not be as much to see down there. Right. So the research that I've done it shown that that part of the Thermo Cline is changed markedly over the last five million years. So by by like, a a large temperature swing as well. Like looking at it doesn't sound like a lot. But looking at four to five degrees. Centigrade temperature changes in the thermoquiet in the eastern Pacific over the last five billion years, and that ends up being important for how not only the ocean circulates. But also how the atmosphere circulation might change over those time periods. Is it hard to convince people that like sometimes water just doesn't mix with itself because I feel like that's something that never it. Always takes me a minute to remember like, oh, yeah. It's not just a well-mixed pool of water. Our oceans, they're kind of like there are different layers in different things happening. No. That's actually an interesting an interesting point. So like one of the things I've done for when I've been teaching as a TA or something like that. We'll talk about different water masses in the ocean. Water masses are essentially or like deep water massive star. These water masses that form at high latitudes. Where water is dense because it's cold, and it's salty in it sinks into the ocean, interior and the way that you kind of get around that ideas, you can use fish, tanks, water tanks or something like that. And you can create like a salty water mass that essentially flows to the bottom of the tank, and it becomes it. Stays very distinct water mass. It doesn't mix with the water above it or anything like that was so strange to me. But now, I mean like things like death. You city right is a fair is actually a very slow process thing about like a bottle of wine. You know, like if you cork a bottle of wine, you're like, oh, I'm just going to let it breathe. It's not going to breed that has a tiny little area in which the wine is exchanging with air, and it definitely steady. Just doesn't work that we go to your place. We're going to see Kanter. Turpin of a nice to cantor one of those little aerator. So you can area at the wine. Tell me those areas work very well. Yeah, I've not a wine person one. I just I'm just lazy, and I don't ever really use it. But yeah, that's cool. So I do vertebrate paleontology. And I often think about what I do in terms of like telling stories, and so do you think of the ocean in the same way as like the ocean, the character of your stories, or is it the forums? Or like where how do you put it all together in your head like big picture when you're telling people about your science? I think what's interesting about geology is pale Nagasaki or geology in general vertebrate paleontology is it is like it's a historical science. So it is kind of a lends itself to being a story. But actually the way that I pitch the work that I've been doing more recently is so I studied this time period called the Pleistocene warm periods of time period about three to four million years ago, which is kind of our closest analogue for future climate change, so carbon dioxide levels or similar to where they are today. People who studied the PGM get mad at you for that saying that or because I feel like I hear that about the Paleocene thermal maximum a lot. Yeah. Well. Yeah. Well longer ago, and that was kind of gyms jam as well. Right. But I think there's certainly many many questions about what the climate is going to look like in the past. Right. And so one of those questions is what does it look like when we're in high carbon states. So the Pleistocene is one of these high-carbon states where we know CO two is estimated to be about where we are right now with human inputs, the reason that the PET 'em or any of this thermal maximums are useful as because we the records show that there was a large release of carbon in geologic instant, right? Not like not like now kind of instant. So that provides us an understanding of how the ocean or the earth system really reacts to inputting ton of carbon and what happens after that. What is recovering look like. So there's utility and understanding both time periods. It's just I've been really interested in warm periods because it does provide kind of our nearest analog for what do warm climates look like when they're kind of equilibrium. What can we imagine that might happen during this time period? Also know that right after that. I've seen more period. We started going into ice ages. Right. Some regularity. Right. Right. Right. So I'm really interested in looking at how the ocean, basically, stored Heaton carbon. So where was the heat in the ocean where was the carbon in the ocean? And does that kind of influence the way that we think about what climate might look like in the future is finding if you look at deep ocean circulation today, there are two places where deep ocean water masses form, there's one in the North Atlantic in this one in the Southern Ocean. And these are the major ways that the it's called the Atlantic Murdy, Donald overturning circulation or amok. And this is one of the major ways that the earth moves around heating carbon today and on glacial-interglacial timescales, more recently. And I think I don't I don't mean interrupted. But I think people don't often hear how important that is from planetary sense. Because like the reason one of the reasons that life is possible on earth is because there are energy gradients. Right. That move stuff around. Right. Exactly. It's out like you don't see that on Mars. You don't even I don't even think you would see that on titan a planet down that has like. Things flowing on it. But yeah fact that we have a warm equator and cold poll, right? We live on a rotating planet with plate tectonics. Right. So we have these thermal gradients we're talking with our hands a little bit because I'll just do we talking. But we are. So so it's it's really important to the story of earth that he is moving around the ways you're talking. Yeah. Yeah. And so those are the two major ways that the ocean accommodates heat and carbon in the in the most recent climate. So that the glacial-interglacial timescales over the last million to million years, but at this time period, one of my collaborators Natalie boroughs, who's a model or in some of her climate models. She actually sees that. There's a Pacific deep ocean water mass, which is pretty unusual today. There's only an intermediate water that formed so water Bassett goes down to about eight hundred thousand meters, we don't really see deep ocean ventilation in the north Pacific. So she sees that the Pleistocene, but what's concerning about that? Is that if there was what we call a p mock up Pacific Ocean Murdiano over attorney sweet relation. Is that today the ocean stores a lot of carbon in the north Pacific today? It's the oldest waters there about two thousand years old, and they're incredibly carbon rich. So if you start essentially irrigating deep water where does the ocean accommodate got carbon? Does it? Does it go somewhere else in the ocean? Or is that change kind of the carbon budget for how much can be stored in the ocean during the Playa scene. Can we sort of expect that more carbon might be moving into that MS Feerick system interesting? Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. Do you want to people to kind of come away from hearing his chat about this one sort of big take home big picture message that you do what would be like the one lesson? You'd wanna make sure they know or the one thing about your work that you think is worthwhile or important for people listening to understand. I agree that we're obviously, but we all some some of his that we just do science for fun, right? Or at least that's sort of the perception. I guess the major thing is that we can use the bringing sentiment archive to help inform future climate change. I think that's just the major take home from any work that any patient for does. And so specifically I'm interested in past warm periods as those analog for future climate change. So that we can improve model performance for the models. That are often used. Here's here's that are models. Don't work that. Well, so you know, they work reasonably well. Right. But at the same onnell's that we use for the same model. So we use her past climate reconstructions the same class of models that we use for like, the international panel on climate change governmental panel on climate change cheesy right are ginger national panel intergovernmental intergovernmental panel on climate change, our GPC, no IPCC. But now, I'm forgetting what the acronym. Sorry. I'm like half a beer in. But those are the same class of models that we use for those reconstructions. So it's it is about testing model perfomance on the data that we can generate in the past a great while. I mean, the people who criticize the models aren't going to be satisfied until the model is so that might as well be earth. Exactly they're going to pick a power like different things. But you know, there are things that I mean, this is one of the reasons that you can use paleo work. If you see that there's poor performance on the models. Okay. Well, what are the past climate reconstruction say can we figure out what those processes and mechanisms that are going to be? Important for future climate change. This is also a research tool that we can use. And also like to bolster what you're saying when people who are not fans of climate change science say like, well, you guys don't really know what you're talking about. I I will remind them that we are now talking about recording the oceans temperature by firing a laser head a shell the size of a grain of sand to measure to different elemental ratios and from that back calculated temperature. So it's like we've done we've done our homework. We kind of thought about this a little bit, right, right? Yeah. So that's really cool. Yeah. No, I I enjoy the I mean, I've had kind of ridiculous conversations with people like I there was one conversation that I had with a guy who was actually I don't remember if he was on the capital of waterboard or at the Santa Cruz waterboard or so he was in some sort of water or capacity, and he was asking me really detailed questions about Kotei reconstructions in cores ice. Cores aren't my jam? But I answered the questions to the best of my ability. And it was like, yeah. I just don't believe it. I don't I don't believe in global warming. And I was like you're literally responsible for water resource management in an entire community. And that's the having people like that in in those sorts of positions of power that influence people's water resources over the next twenty thirty fifty years, especially in a resource limited area, like Santa Cruz is just that as a travesty water issues are big deal in that part of the country, and San I remember there being big fights in Santa Cruz local versus the university about how water was going to get out university expanded. Yeah, I always joke with those people that we like shouldn't let them use anything on their phone that was like generated by like the scientific method that they're outing. Oh, so you can't use GPS anymore. Sorry. You don't believe it. So. Yeah. I would let you use the GPS scientists can Tang they'll crawl can't have lots of things. Yeah. So I just always think it'd be funny to like take things away until they play nice or learn that maybe it's not the way they think it is. Yeah. Weird ways. People. Choose to doubt parts of science always fascinating to me. But you mentioned the we're having a beer. So with that. I think we will move over to our next segment, which is what are you drinking? We recording live at atlas brewers here in DC a borough you suggested and that's fascinating because you don't live in DC. And so you suggested the brew we came to. So tell us what you're having here at atlas I am having the blood orange ghosts. That's how you say geo SE, and I'm enjoying this particular beer because sours have been kind of my jam over the last two ish years. I like I could sour and it's a it's a good sour. I have had a little trouble. Getting my engine going today. So I'm having the coffee common. So it is their common calif-. Style steam L, but with some coffee in it local coffee From Compass rosters here in also in DC and Dennis esteem ale is a lager brewed like an AOL or vice versa. Oh, that's a good question. It's one of the few truly American styles anchor steam came up with it. Yeah. And I actually don't know. Yeah. It's it's one or the other. It's it's like either the components of a lager brewed as an ale or the components of lay ale. Brewed is a logger. I think it's it must be brewed as an ale because ales are easier to make them lagers. So if you're going to flip it in a direction a small production. I think you would flip it in that direction. But don't quote me on that. I could look it up right now. But it's more fun just to be wrong emails. Yeah. What do you mean, you don't know? And I've toured the anchor steam facility, and I don't I don't remember right now. So and I think it might also have something to do with actually using a steam power, something or other. There's something the steam part is important. Yeah. I think it's one of those San Francisco originals, right? Like like that and fortune cookies, I think fortune. Well, there's some debate over fortune cookies. Oh, I thought they were definitely like a California thing, or at least a US thing. Yes. I believe that is not up for debate. The debate comes from do the come from the Chinese American community of the Japanese American community just go I listened to. I think it was a ninety nine percent invisible podcast. They didn't episode about the. But either way it came from San Francisco, pretty sure that's true. I don't think that is in dispute, it's just the culture of origination. Okay. Because we obviously associate that with Chinese now like some reason to believe that might have been the Japanese came up with them. Okay. We had it was anchor. Steam beer that came up with this technique for the California common male. And that it was Fritz Maytag the. Guy who inherited the Maytag fortune found out about this was in California. Had this beer really liked it. And that I think I understand was about to go under and shit. It's like I'll I'll make you flush. Yeah. So we have like a guy who inherited a bunch of money from laundry machines to thank for arguably to thank for like the American craft beer movement in the modern era. Steve anchor steam had gone under it's possible that craft beer would not have taken off in the US the way it did. Or at least recovered from prohibition. Right. Went needed to. We'll cheers for joining me to have a drink and talk about something. Some of the work Heather does to understand the temperature of the ocean in the past. But I can tell you that the temperature and our drinks not. I can't tell you that. I don't know. I'm fumbling are now can't really drink the ocean tells about the Saul chino, which can drink feel like we've used that one before. But we're going to go with it. Lot of water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. Another poem much like the titans of myth. We carry the weight of the world. I'm just talking to go combination of the ones Patrick control used all crop in the music. Episode of science. We didn't also talk about what we are drinking Patrick. I've been making you go first a lot. So I think I'm gonna mix it up and make Charlie go first, right? Well, here I am at work again opened my drawer and this time I pulled out some o Ocho greasy. C- cold brew. They say on the side of the bottle. We use an Senic Japanese cold brew Meizu dashi recipe to bring you the smoothest most refreshing green tea, steeping are finely mill Japanese much and whole eaves and is dress out a cleaner flavor and the naturally mellow who. Mommy, sweetness of the tea making this Japan's number one cold brew macho leave you said almost that exact same tagline when you first had on the show. But that's okay. I'm taking. Sponsorship. I was gonna say, yeah. Your mic sticker on it. Now. It sounds like good t-. I am. I am looking forward to trying. It is a very very good Nutro pick. It's got a nice mellow caffeine lift and that nice letdown. It's not not like Espresso coffee. Well, here's what I will say actually Charlie to turn your plug into an actual plug. Whenever any of us have a non alcoholic premade beverage on the show. That's usually something I can link to using Amazon affiliate account. Right. Patrick. Yeah. What happens when you go to Amazon affiliate link? We get a tiny bit of money you spend. Yeah. Helps sports show take it away from Jeffrey beezus put it in our pocket is you can't take it with you. Right. That's what they say. They say that you can if I mean, not when you die. Yeah guy. But but most of the rest of the time, you can take you were a pharaoh in Egypt, which I feel like is what Jeff Bezos angling for at this point some sort of pyramid full of servants and cats, Patrick what you have him. All right. So again being in Britain. I decided it was time to I've been avoiding scotch most of my life or they just call it whisky ear but figured it was time to dive in a little bit. They spell it wrong though. Yeah. Just a why you why? So I went to that sort of a local spirits shop and ask for some advice, and I got stared to this brick Lasik. Classic laddy Scottish barley did single malt scotch whisky from the isle of Islay you'd want to pronounce it is lay. It's not what you got to Isla scotch. That's not petted. That's crazy. I know I've known for like the kick you in the face. I can't leave. I don't really think it's don't really think. It's completely unpainted. So it's still got into that sounds. A little bit of that kick you in your face thing going on. But like I said, I don't drink a lot of don't drink a lot of scotches. So maybe it's not beated at all. But I have had some other ones that don't have the this kick you in the face of the highlands tastes like like oatmeal raisin cookie. It's like raising and vanilla. But. Try to give Jamie a kiss after that. It's not gonna work. Are you do you do the drop of water or are you doing ice just just drop water water? Okay. And are you liking it? Or is it still not quite to your palate? So what I guess it's not quite to my palate. But also for Christmas, Jamie, got me a Shetland pony. Which tastes better to ride around Scotland right now, just a. What's what? Of a bottle, basically what Eddie cantor? That's the word. I'm looking for nice start sort of blending whisky yourself, so create our Infinity Infinity bottles. So I think a little bit of this is going to go a long way in that too in that Kanter, and we've got a few other things that are going to sort of make up the base. We've got a couple of thanks for just going to pour a little into and see see where it takes us. So we're looking forward to that experiment. Once we get done with a dry January. I got my dad one of those like mini barrels that you can aid your own bell proof white dog coach in it should be ready. I hope I'll have the opportunity to have some on the show at some point. It should be ready in four six ish months. So we'll see stay tuned. We'll do. I am having nobody asked, but I'll tell you. I'm having a cocktail. This is a Cina are cocktail is a Manhattan. So does the Manhattan with the addition of Kiara, which is a bitter Italian apetit vote that has a bunch of different herbs and spices. As many of those bitter liqueurs are want to do. But this one is a predominantly artichoke. Which is I believe what means in Italian? Yeah. That that is an awesome Amaury. Don't you mean Amaro Amaro? Yeah. That's what I meant you. But you if you love it, then it would be an Amaro that you Amaury that's Maury. Yes. Indeed. I'm so you're fan. I figured you'd be a fan Charlie of the. Yeah. Like that one a lot. Okay. So for this. You just do it was the recipes suggested on the bottle of the chino. And this is not the this is not the extra over proved chino. This is just the normal stuff because there is like a higher proof that you can get as well but much like, Patrick Scott, but one bottle of Chinar stays in your liquor cart for a long time. Don't you don't go through it quickly. But it is something. Julia really like so so it's something we have on hand. And it's two ounces whiskey. I went bourbon instead of rye for this one. Even though it calls for three quarter ounces of sweet, Ruth half ounce of char and American cherry. So I did that over some ice. And that's what I'm enjoying. Now. Sounds good. I never had Cina are. But I have seen it in various recipes for cocktails that I would like to try so I'm sure the relatively near future. I'll be purchasing the ball. I would say it is a more. It is a easier to mix sort of like for Bronco almost is that fair trailing. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, weightless are herbal Frenette Broncos. Another Amaro maros are just what tinctures right infusions. They're bitter. Herbal liqueurs. Yeah. You just you throw some into high proof alcohol and let it let it max shurer excetera. Yeah. Accurate. Don't do opium. You'll get laudanum. Make you addicted and sick. Good advice. Charlie. I have a book on tomorrow that my parents got me for Christmas that I have not read yet because I've actually been trying to get a book read for the show. So soon I will know much more trying able to speak intelligently to the joys of Amaro. But I'm not quite there yet. Yeah. I don't know nothing. It's no from being being in Italy for a few weeks. But what I do know is that we've got some more chats with Heather. And in our second half of our conversation. We shifted to talking about some of the work that she is doing to help push organizations in particular, hue towards better gender equity of speaking slots at big meetings like this. So let's hear it has to say about that. So the reason you originally reached out to me to come on the show was that in addition to all of your paleo Oceana graphic work. You're also doing more social science or or advocacy work regarding equity and diversity specifically gender, equity and diversity in the geosciences. So you have been studying the way that big conferences like the one. We just attended AG you twenty eight thousand plus geo scientists that was the number that they told the press at mounting. Wow. Twenty eight thousand attendees, which is like the size of some places. I've lived right all in a convention center. Talkback geosciences, right? A joke that it's like y'all twenty eight thousand of us get together to figure out what lies we're going to talk about climate change for the next year because it's super easy to convince twenty eight thousand people to all work together and same thing. So you sent me the pre print of a paper you put together that has since we published in nature communications. Yes. Call gender representation of speaking opportunities at the. American geophysical union following meetings before we dive into maybe what you found can you? Tell us kind of the Genesis of what got you thinking about this in the first place. I should mention you have co-authors Cameron brick Corinne blouse and Petra s Deccan. Yeah. P tra- teach you know, Iran, Iraq. That name means rock, and she's on our paper about geoscience. Yeah. She's a geoscientist. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So she she's my academic sister. So she also did her PHD at Santa Cruz with the same adviser, but we didn't actually overlap so part of this actually came from p tra- so Peter and has been a really critical mentor in my career development. But one time she was the secretary for age you for the Paleocene RPM paleo-climatology section and her assistant secretary wasn't able to come his wife had pneumonia. So he was like I can't come to scheduling meeting for us. So basically this everybody gets together after all these abstracts are done, and they basically create like a schedule a bunch of postcards on a board trying to figure out things. And anyway, so I went there, and we all complain about where they put us afterwards. Yes. Exactly. So we have we have no respect or no love for the people who went through all the trouble to scuttle things. All we did was complain about like they put me on Friday afternoon. Yeah. It's hard scheduling, and you're never really gonna make anybody happy especially the Friday after. When people, but so it was it was it was one of those things where we were scheduling, and we'd see that. There might be like one token white woman in an oral session, and we're like this doesn't seem right equitable fair any number of things. So we sort of like all one day if we could actually like get the data and do the analysis so that was kind of the Genesis of it. And then I guess the kind of the motivation to actually do the work was one that Trump Pacalypse, I think there are a lot of England when that happened I renting land, so I just moved to England. So currently, I'm basically experiencing the worst of two worlds because I'm in the UK, I see the Trump Pacalypse in like a giant dumpster fire in the United States like on a weekly basis. And then Brexit is also a giant dumpster fire. So it's like, it's it's it's kind of nonstop. But so after the Trump hawk lips, I think that there are a lot of people of color and white women who were basically like this is what do we do to make the world better. And I don't want to exclude men I think men were part of that conversation as well or white men, but a lot of the advocacy work, particularly within the science community has been done by people of color and white women in the last couple of years. Instead, this paper that we wrote was was really my way of dealing with some of the frustrations and some of the anger of the Trump clips, and then also just career building as a woman has been incredibly difficult for me. So it's kind of an outlet for me to get rid of some of those frustrations. And then also one of the things that also came out was so joy Luebeck and Brooks Hansen. Jury lower back is currently a graduate student at university of Utah. She works on hydrology and Brooks Hansen who I believe is the CEO or see something he's he's he's sea level for publications for Hugh. They did an analysis of looking at gender for manuscript reviews in how male versus female editors handled papers. So they had done a gendered analysis. And I read that and I was like, oh, my God issue has this data like, and so I asked age you whether or not they would let me do this analysis, and they were like, yes. Absolutely. I was listening. I was going to ask because they were on board from the start. Yeah. No itchy. It's been amazing in this. They've really opened up a lot of their database and what's unique about age. You the American geophysical union is that they have high quality data set on their on their members. They have demographic information for most of their membership was in this demographic information includes age sex if their US-based members it includes ethnicity and win their degree dates were their highest degree degree dates. So they have a really rich data set to actually look at these kinds of implicit and explicit biases. Were you surprised when they said, yes, though, like feeding them to feel like I'm I'm surprised gladdened but surprised to hear that an organization that large is willing to let someone come in and perform an evaluation that potentially could have ended up being. Critical. And it's always was and that they were open to that and willing to and didn't want to keep that maybe done internally and reflect on it as opposed to letting you literally put it out there. Now, I mean, I think that they have the data, and I think that they've reflected on some of their data as well. But really one of the four strategic items for Hugh is the talent pool, they call it the talent pool in it is to to look at the diversity inequity and try and lessen some of those barriers participation for sciences. So geosciences ends up being like any stem field density. It ends up being generally like women poor, but in particular geosciences are incredibly white super super white. So they have been really good about actually being very forward thinking about diversity and equity. They have diversity inequity task force. They've renewed their code of conduct. They've been asking for reviews from the community about their sexual or the harassment policy. They're broadening their definition from just sexual harassment to other. Types of harassment like microaggressions bullying that sort of thing. So they're taking a very broad approach to tackling some of the barriers for participation within the geoscience community. So yeah, they've been very open about sort of you know, the the data's there the data's worth looking at. And that's really the first place knowing that you have a problem is the first step to actually tackling that problem, and they've been trying to do that in a very mindful way as well. So after they came out with the publication looking at the gender diversity of their reviewers. They did this tiny experiment where they did a small intervention where so one of the things that they saw is that male and female authors who submitted abstracts or submitted papers, excuse me for publication weren't having gender equity in the reviewers that they suggested so they did a small intervention where we're going to judge by a jury of their peers. Yeah. Exactly. So they suggest people that they think would be good reviewers for their particular manuscript. And so one of the small interventions that age you did is they actually said. Said, hey, when you're considering these names to submit why don't you consider the diversity of the people that you suggest and so actually the intervention worked the most on on men so men ended up being much more. Well, the women prior to this invention. We're all we're already pre- pretty gala -tarian, but men just having a small intervention ended up being much more egalitarian in the way that their gender suggested for reviewers panned out. So when they saw that that small intervention work. They started the test pilot on one single turn all, but when they saw that they were getting improvement in the numbers they actually expanded that to all of the journals. So just so we're clear this is an editor. Who's usually volunteer who another scientist in that same field. Yeah. They receive the paper from the submission site. That the scientists goes in some instances the journal, and then it is up to the editor to then select three other scientists then review the work anonymously. Yeah. And so what you're talking about. Specifically is making. Sure that the people selected to review the work came from some sort of place of diversity. Yeah. So the person so in this instance, they looked at how the editors behaved as well. But in this instance, they were looking at how the authors submitting the paper behaved, and when they did that small in her intervention on the authors submitting, and author you're allowed to list, the people that you think would be a good choice. Right. I don't doubt this played a role either. But like you're also allowed to say people you would prefer not to share new which is usually just because like rivalry's existence science like. Just have to cover your own bug. But yeah. And I don't think they looked at that in particular. But it was. Yeah. That's usually more like personal political than is like I don't want a woman reviewing my right now. Yeah. That would be I would hope that if somebody said that the editor would be like, well, then we're not gonna rip your actual clarify because not everyone listening to this. We'll have been through the scientific right here. Make sure everyone's on the same page. Yeah. And so based on that study, you thought okay? Well, the fall meeting is one of the biggest scientific congregations in the world. It is as far as I know it is the world's largest physical sciences conference, and certainly the world's largest earth space science conference. Yes. So you said that the twenty eight thousand attendees, it's an incredibly high powered data set. So the first analysis that we did was based on gender. And actually, what was interesting is. So so like, most stem fields geosciences has a leaky pipeline for women in that women are concentrated in the student early career roles, and then you see fewer women it kind of mid career or they call it experienced career levels and women kind of they leave the field more so than men, and so you kind of have to account for that. So when you look at the abstract analysis as a whole you see that there is a distinct disadvantage, the women are invited less. Are given oral presentations less than men, but that's due in part because women are concentrated like student early career roles, and they might not feel just aren't giving talks as as often giving a talk seen as higher status than a poster and the rest some data suggest that that's true. Because there was a study that came out that showed that if you give talking to meeting you're more likely to then get a paper from that same really, abstract or talk. Talk. If you gave a poster well interesting. Yeah. And there's there's been discussions among the community about like that posters are important, and I absolutely agree with that. I love presenting posters, especially when I'm early in into a project because you do get better feedback. But there is something about visibility of research. Like, if you're an invited speaker or you're giving a talk that's status. That's you disseminate those results to a wider audience than if you just have five or six people come to your poster. So there's that and the way it works is at these meetings. You submit an abstract. See you submit like a paragraph summary of the kind of idea or project, you want to talk about an usually every society meeting that I've gone to I've had after you can select I want a talk is my preferred right presentation type, and then we'll get into this a little bit with results you found and you can say like, I'll only give talk if you don't want to give a talk just reject my abstract. Yeah. And you can say I want to give a talk. But if you want me to give a poster I will say, I would prefer to have a poster. Yeah. And those are usually. Ranked in likelihood of that that we've you organizes actually when a when an author submits an abstract on the research that they'd like to present the is given two options they can either be assigned a talk or a poster by the convener. So the people organizing the session or they cannot for a poster so nobody can opt for a talk for you that you can put comments in your abstract saying like, oh, this is gonna be published or this is published. You know, it'd be really great to have a talk in conveners at this level are not the people who are putting on the meeting the age, you folks, they are other scientists who have proposed a session basically saying like we would like an afternoon at AG devoted to talking about. Right liason ocean circulation. Right. Then you would usually try to get your community your field of researchers. I've had to do this by organizing a session do all submit their abstracts to your session specifically, and then you as the session convenor get to decide who's giving talks and who's giving. Right. Exactly. And so when we looked at the data we see that women are disadvantaged when we look at the entire population of men versus women, but. When we actually controlled for career stage. So looking at student female students versus male students and female early career versus male early career. A lot of those relationships essentially went away. Actually, there was really good equity among her or stages between men and women. So that was really encouraging. But then one of the things that we did is we also looked at the gender of the primary convener. So the primary convenor is the person who is kind of in charge of organizing the session. They have co convenors who provide input, but they're they're really kind of the person leading the show. So we looked at the gender of the primary convener in how they made allegations some male versus female primary conveners male conveners control, something like seventy three percent of the abstract allocations. So they're they're doling out a lot of abstracts and male primary conveners across career stages, so male primary conveners from early career to more senior levels were providing fewer opportunities for their female colleagues to speak or to present it all to speak. So either is invited speakers or as. Oral presentations. So this is concerning because we sort of think about these once kind of the old guard dies wants the dinosaurs, retire, everything will like eventually, get better. But actually, we're seeing the same sort of 'gate-keeping from early career men as we do older career men, and the other part is that's interesting is that basically the only reason that you see equity when you control for career stages is that women with a small amount of abstracts they actually control they over over over over invite women relative to the poor portion of women that are available in the abstract pool. So in this case, you're actually seeing that the underrepresented group is doing the bulk of the visibility of the equity work Raja. So the reason it worked out is roughly equals because women are going above and beyond right in the men are really pulling their way. Right. And I think that that is in part because I think women and men kind of you equity a little bit differently. Like, I think for women when they're controlling when they're organizing a session like, they probably shoot. Or something like fifty fifty. And then men are like I want her to fun because I've certainly been in sessions organized by men were there's one token white woman and suddenly that's diverse session. So that was an interesting result. And actually what I've been working on recently. So I've been getting drafted this together. And I actually presented this at AG is that after this was published in nature communications and April, and you also just want to add to what you said you were looking at data across a couple years worth. Yeah. Just looking at one meeting. So we're not necessarily talking about a snapshot. And it does trend towards the reason it was like two thousand fourteen to two thousand sixteen where it was twenty. Yeah. Twenty fourteen in two thousand sixteen. So this is a very recent summary of of these data sets three years is I think if you're seeing consistency across the three years you are seeing a real trend and not just what happened at one meeting one year. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And part of this comes down to data quality like we weren't able to look at long-term changes in AG because the data quality in like the early knots or anything like that. It's just not as high so. It would have been interesting as the latitude and all study. But yeah, it's it's nice to have a snapshot right now showing. Yes, we have a problem Jews heading into centennial year next year. It'll be the hundred years of age, and they Oto of the I I think it was the first fall meeting here in DC like the Carnegie institute or something like that. Okay. And it's like twenty five dudes and one woman, I think there was one woman there might be missing remember that? But it's just so funny to think about how like I think a lot of scientific societies have that like old timey white men in suits black and white photo of our first meeting when it was just a handful of us twenty thousand strong. Yeah. Think do one hundred year anniversary. So, but yeah. So what I've been working on just this last week. I presented some of these results at the fall meeting on Tuesday is that after we presented the gender analysis. People were like what about minorities, and I was like that is an excellent question. It more complicated analysis complicated analysis for sure, but it's also I would argue it's probably a more important question because geosciences are incredible. Early incredibly white more. So than many other sciences, we got it ended up being a more difficult analysis, you know, the gender study, and I do want to note that in our understanding of gender identification as much more broad than male and female, but with the data that we have on hand, it ends up being a much easier binary analysis, but for things like ethnicity, you have many more categories, and it just ends up being a more statistically difficult analysis. And there's mixed race people, which I know also being yes, we would concert. There are people who identifies being in between genders. Yes, that's hard. Yeah. Exactly. Then started could be more complicated. Yeah. So huge does collect ethnicity data from its US-based members. When we were doing this analysis we had to make a couple of hard decisions. So one of the things that we ended up doing was actually merging all of the underrepresented minorities into one category. So African Americans Latina cts Pacific islander a native American. We're all lumped into one category, which in itself has kind of problematic because it has some measure of a racer like these different communities have different barriers for participation. But also, it's geosciences in a way that is maybe distinct from other types of sciences is very geographically oriented. So yes, a lot of so many geoscience projects involve being in a certain part of the world or understanding certain part of the world. Right. And so when you lack representation from those places, I think can affect the prep the prevalence of projects getting done in that part of the world or the way the data gets interpreted, right? I met a really amazing. A woman in event at AG who is from air tra-, and she's a soil scientist, and like not a lot of people were talking about how a war-torn country how that affects your soil now like places where there are landmines. Yeah. Hey, it's harder to do soil science. Yes. There land mines. And it'd be like you're putting a bunch of explosive chemicals on the ground telling it where they are. And ranking right, so yeah. So like getting that representations sort of can just totally change the way, you view, the projects in certain kinds of opportunities to study parts of the world that might not have been on the front of mind before right or in just kind of what you're echoing what you're saying is what's important to the community. Right. And so and what lens do you look at science through? And so we did do this Alison we actually saw that in the same way that women. Are you kind of have it retention problem with women underrepresented minorities are concentrated in the student early career stages, but the other issue that we have with a Representative minorities as a community is is recruitment as well. So we're not we're not getting in as as many. Represented minorities ethnic minorities as we should be based on the population of people. So there's two different issues there. And so we did see that underrepresented minorities were invited less in given oral given oral presentations less than the other groups, but what was probably more concerning is that when we controlled for career stage. We still saw that underrepresented minorities we're at a disadvantage and some of these relationships for institute significant, but in a descriptive way, they weren't being given the same sort of opportunities as their similarly Korea staged peers much like gender statistical significance is a construct. We do also just decide that you can change the value. You decide something significant at so if you're seeing a trend, it's not like the scientific data where we necessarily have to like hold ourselves to a hardline there. Yeah. Well, it was so and this is a huge issue in social sciences in general. Right. So my colleague Cameron brek. He's he is a social scientists psychologists. So one of the things that he had a stew for this particular study. It's actually do a Preregister are a pre registration ever studied to say out from the before we even started the analyses like whit specific hypotheses we were going to test. What was going to be the we talked. We talked about this social recently how that's the thing becoming a fan social scientists and algae where you so that way the please. Yes, I'll let you. It's just it's just so that you don't like go on a on a hunting trip to find a a relationship. Right. Like, you come you before you even start the study, you document how you're going to collect the data. If you're going to collect the data. What kinds of how you're gonna treat the date? And those sorts of things. So we didn't we did this whole pre registration process to to figure out the specific hypotheses we come into this with the gender as well. But it is becoming more in vogue in social sciences to actually document. Hey, this is our plan. Here's the result. And if we if we veered away from that why we did that because science happens like people make different choices. But we've stayed pretty faithful to the pre registration. But yeah. So you're the first person I've met who's actually done a study where that was something. They did. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is to you in part because being a hellish and offer is my day job. And being a social scientist is my side job. And I really do rely on Cameron for his expertise in that area as well. But then another thing that we were able to do because the data set is so rich we were actually able to look at intersection -ality. So intersection is this idea that I think was first coined by him early Crenshaw. She's a law Stoller at UCLA UCLA, excuse me, you've been wanting to own I know University College of London, I know. Who says she looked at this intersection island? He is is this idea if it systems of oppression and can be interwoven for marginalized groups in our particular analysis, we were interested in looking at the intersection of race and gender so underrepresented minorities. How did they women represented minority? Women how did they compare and in comparison to other groups, so for instance, underrepresented minority women were provided fewer invited speaking roles in comparison to underrepresented men and across the board underrepresented women were provided they were invited less than they were given fewer world presentations than than other women. So this is also pretty concerning. Just to see the intersection of these results as well. So yeah. So the earlier study, you you mentioned that one thing that helped was just telling male editors, hey, think about this when you're assigning reviewers. Do you think that's what's needed here, or what are some recommended? Or just even ideas, you think could help improve this situation as Asia moves forward into the next hundred years. Yeah. I mean, I think that issue has started to do some of this because it part of it is certain measures of social nudging. How do you structurally change things? So I do think it's good that societies in general or conferences are really trying to provide opportunities for earlier Kerr scientists or student per scientists because this is an area that we see the most diversity in writing gender and ethnicity. So if you're concentrating on those roles are those stages, you you generally have a more equitable conference. And so I didn't organize the session this year. But I'm told that or I know that so the president of the meeting he sent out an Email to all of the people who are convening sessions. Like, hey, you also have to consider diversity when you're setting up these sessions, and then also one of the things that they did when the primary can be that that can be nurse. We're kind of deciding who gets talks is that they made the student in early. Identifiers much easier to access so as it was criterion was kind of easily accessible versus somebody who was convenient session might have to dig around for it a little bit to kind of figure it out. So those are kind of the smaller things that age us trying to do with the way that we set up the meetings. So kind of a push for early career scientists or student scientists and then making not identifying information easy for the conveners to to see them. I know we do have a lot of student listeners. Are there tips tricks ideas or things you would just want younger listeners who might be getting ready to start their current science to to know or think about as they get ready to start? And so yeah, any any advice for the young folks out there? Oh, jeez. You know, I think most people want to be helpful. And I think that it is a matter of just kind of reaching out. I think that there's so much implicit mentorship. That people who are kind of in the know get without actually acknowledging it, which is one of the reasons that structured mentorship programs benefit everyone. So everybody gets an opportune. Easy to talk to somebody who gives them career advice or anything like that. So find a structured mentorship program if you can. And then also find diversity of mentors who might be able to help you and these can be informal mentors or structured mentorships. But I think part of it is learning to network in learning to ask for help when you need it. I think that's a big thing that especially people of color and white women have a hard time asking for what they need. I think sometimes. And I think that most people want to be helpful and part of it is just is just asking for help. One thing I've told younger students when we're talking about stuff, and I'm doing some of that maybe implicit mentoring that you mentioned is something Zora told me, I think or Kim for we're guessing the show and Santa Cruz Ranchi student now back in the UC system at Moore said she was the one I believe he told me that like your adviser is sort of there to get you through. The academic stuff is was job is to get you out the door with the degree that you signed up to get. Right. Right. And sometimes the adviser can also serve that mentoring capacity. But like sometimes they're too busy or sometime. Right. They want to keep a little bit more that emotional distance because they're your adviser and rang your student, and so like, you don't always have to look to that one person for that kind of mentoring. If anything like your mentors like you said, it's better to have a diversity of mentors. And to me the role of the mentors is like how do I get through the life stuff right being a science? And I think having a having a good peer group is really important for that as well. So I think that the cohort effect ends up being really strong. So like for us, for instance, there's I think there's been a really strong cohort effect for people in sciences in terms of us being successful in the field in many different capacities like Sora, and I overlapped she's now a professor at UC Merced said, you know, you're here doing science and talking science and still interested in sciences now that you've said it I didn't I hadn't heard that term before. I love it. And I think there's strong cohort effect on this pod. Cast. There's definitely like, yeah. You're more likely to be on the show if we went to school together at some point because networking ends up being really important, right? Like, I still keep in contact with people that I know from grad school who are no longer necessarily academics per se, but they are in various items like I have a friend who works at the EPA that I just had lunch with today. And I have a friend who I'm staying with. I I did my masters with her, and she she works in public affairs. And so the intersection of science and policy, and I think these are people are really key to keep in contact with because number one, they're fun. They helped you get through your own personal experience. But they can also provide opportunities for people who are kind of interested in that sort of stuff as well. So I, you know, in terms of professional development like you should always kind of keep abroad network for yourself, and for people who ask questions like, oh, you know, I'm interested in this. Do you know anybody who might do this? And then you're able to put them in contact. So yeah it cohorts in. Terribly important for sure that's really cool. I really interesting answer that I never would've thought of glad to have that like mental construct in my head. Now, if people are interested in your work where can they follow along with your adventures online? I will link to the archive pre publication since that's the free version nature communications. And we had the guys niche communications, isn't it? What it's. Yeah. It's open source. So we will. Yeah. Will link to that as we also had the earth archive guys on the show. So. Okay. Yeah. I like to like to have what I put it. It was it's actually the first and only paper that I put it on earth archive, and it was in part because I did it right before Eiji you because I wanted I wanted out there for people to talk about it. And I did not get it together to put the underrepresented minority reprint online for this issue because I got busy, but that will happen. And I hope to submit that soon. Great. And then you also have a website hover four dot com. Are you active on any other social media platforms? I do have the Twitter's my handle is H L underscore Ford. And I'm also on Instagram with the same handle, and that is mostly adorable pictures of my dog who's here with us. I forgot to mention that drinking saving you've been asleep. Most of this time Sammy's been sleeping. She's she's very fond of water. It's good that are her pet. Mama's an oceanographer them or. Yeah. We had a bit of a weekend though. Because she since I'm staying with my friend in DC. They also have a dog. And I think Sammy didn't really like get the social structure yet. She's still a puppy. So she's only nine months, so she didn't get a pack dynamic. She didn't figure out the pack Damnak. So she spent the entire weekend peeing all over the place just like all over, but she's like calm down now, and she's fine. But yeah, most of my Instagram is my dog. And then my Twitter is a mix of my dog and gender kind of stuff. And also just cool science that I do awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us other. Thanks for having me. Ryan, I really appreciate it. I was happy to have the opportunity. We just got the like extremely low battery light. So this is perfect. Hey, everyone. All right. Well, thanks again. Do Heather for taking an evening to sit down with me and chat about all the work that she is doing both scientific and more sociological is still scientific it's still data driven at the very least. But coming at her scientific discipline and lifestyle from a very different perspective. And I learned a lot. I hope you guys did too. And if you did learn something or you have something you want to say about everything you just heard you can write into us. And that might get featured in our final segment, just the paleo pal. Up next. Powell was the final segment of the show where we take time for the listener. I mean, technically all of this show is for the listeners, but this. The segment where we actually directly acknowledged your existence and speak back to that. We're going to start this time. We've got another patriotic thesis, boys. This one is for Edward a and Edward is a longtime fan, but not someone we've had a ton of direct interaction with. I checked the records and the first we heard from Edward was back in two thousand and ten Edwards been good while so yeah, I think you yes. And then a supporter on multiple occasions through multiple avenues. So the patronage via patriotic is the most recent of his efforts to help us make the show. So let's let's think of something here for Edward. All right. Let's see what we something four AMI. Something equitable, something old timey, something bitter. Smoking eighty. Trying to think of the things we've talked about something macho macho still can't say that. Right. All right. Even the benthic forums. They live on they still live on the surface of the ocean floor. They're not actually in the sediment. Right. I don't believe. So just trying to think if we could do something about like, four forums and Pete. Pete. Bog? You have an unpaid at scotch or so they claim or so then claim on forum size sorting through through steeping through Pete something like that straight. What's was that? Stroup steeping steeping has trying to tie in my much teak. Deep steep. That's a verb. Right. Very common. One. I don't like it like you don't like steeping sex sexual selection in Scottish for ams Scott at five rooms or. For ministerial fossils on I'll of Islay and the effects of green tea on their sexual selection. See we are seeing what you're reaching for. I'm seeing what you're feeling around the edges of I like the idea of some sort of Scottish for him situation. Six ratio of the Scottish for him. Sex ratios in Scottish forums. It's pretty straightforward for one of our time rage, right? It's gonna be a little sillier something about all that we got. Got a sex ratio. Forums can be like the pre or post colon part. Right, right. What about lock alive? Sex ratios for him. Some scott. Want lock alive? No, nothing. Edward shares. The name with famous Scottish poet, it would burns, right. Edward burns. Yeah. That's wrong. Right. Forget that back to the Scottish forums. Is anyone still on the Mike where did it? Doc. What if Edward did a study to see if scotch would make forums benthic 'cause they get all sluggish whereas caffeine from green tea makes them all tonic because they're like look alive and not alive already made that joke. But just like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. How about? Sexual dwarfism in metabol- omit processing of alcohol and caffeine in Scottish forums. Ooh. Okay. Let's start off that sense with foremost ramifications. Motus ramifications of forum equity and gender inclusion. Yeah. We should analysis. Got us Highland analysis. No, I kind of like foremost ramifications sexual morphism and metabolic processing of alcohol of ethanol versus caffeine, Scottish -firmative FRA. That's that's pretty good. I like that it with that. Every once in a while, we come across one that sounds like it could be a real study. Yeah. Congratulations on your degree at the kind that. On the home. All right. It's impressive. Good job with the tag there at the front, Charlie. Do my best. Well, now, Charlie you can do your best by reading us the Email that was sent in by Frank. Yes. So or is he likes to go by footage? No. Yeah. This guy way deep so paleo pals found out about your podcasts through Chad over at the claps Cy and have been listening since episode to a five show is great real people shooting the breeze and talking about science in a way that the average listener can follow along. I'm a bit disappointed to find out that the trailer trash talk. It's cut from the podcast since I liked how the discussion usually digress into interesting science tangents and always comes back to the tried and tested research tool that is the H S X Hollywood stock exchange for those of you that just don't know. I'm so enamored with your podcast that I've gone back into the archive and started listening from the very beginning. I'm up to episodes twenty thought that some of the podcast timeless and could have follow up episodes. These have already happened. Then great. And I look forward to hearing them. I worked my way through the podcast, if not you should do them in particular. Frank following up is not our strong suit. We just live in the moment. Caso episode thirteen acid Queen was on talking about acidification as it's related to climate change since the IPC intergovernmental panel for climate change as published its third and final report. And now it's up to the politicians to make concrete plans. I think it'd be great if you address whether or not ocean acidification is that all included in the climate models and data presented in the report. Certainly I think the amount of info related to climate change drastically changed since November two thousand nine I can summarize that analysis in one sense faster than we thought. It's real bad. Episode twenty do you do, you know? I don't actually I mean, I don't know that you would include it in the climate models because it's not really a driver. It's more of an effect. Right, right. It doesn't feel drive climate or doesn't really affect climate. But it's it's definitely bad for life in the oceans. And it's an it's an effect that I think is a much more direct measure of the amount of CO two in the atmosphere, and it it's the data or not nearly as. I don't know jumpy or they're unambiguous. Right. We'll get it. As fact or acidic, I don't I don't know how strong of a feedback loop. This would be what percentage are order of affect but certainly like preventing carbon uptake through calcium carbonate shell formation, and then burial NC sediment worried about going to lose a carbon sink. That's a good point. But but yes, I mean to the degree that we can even predict what the change in the ph of the surface. Ocean is going to be is part of what comes out of these ever more precise nuance climate models. Yeah. It's the factor for sure. All right. Another episode that Filipino brings up is so twenty with Steve novella was on talking about skepticism in general, and it was specifically mentioned in the podcast that for a debate to truly be affective or fair towards scientists that it should be set up in a certain way, moderation standards for evidence, etc. Since this was aired in January twenty ten and Bill Nye debated Ken ham, February twenty fourteen I think would be great to have Steve back onto talk about the debate who learned whether it was effective or not and how the public publicity generated has been good slash bad for science and pseudoscience a new listener and a member of the paleo posse fullish. No, I don't even remember that debate who's Ken ham. The set the guy that has the like crazy museum. Yes, can ham creature museum in Kentucky and is trying to build ark. Okay. I don't remember how I felt back in twenty ten or even more recently in two thousand fourteen but I'm increasingly of a mind that these sorts of debates are never effective for the scientists to do. Yes. Yes. It gives a platform for the people hurting the cause. Yeah, I'm increasingly of a mind that when the person you're debating the thing that they're arguing for has no foundation by which it could be true. I don't know that debating about that is affected or a good use of outreach energy. Yeah. I mean, what's that George Bernard Shaw, quote, or whatever like if you wrestle with a pig. You get dirty and the pig likes it. Well, I don't even know that it's that so much. Yeah. I think I think there's an element of that. But I just I don't know that you you're definitely not going to convince the person you're debating, and I don't know that there's much by the way of public understanding of how debates actually work like, I don't know. I mean, look at something like a debate that we actually see more often something like the presidential debates do those serve a function other than to see who is the better performer of debate like, but in terms of actually debating things even with somebody who's trying to moderator all it takes is one disruptor one bad actor or one person is not actually there to play the game for it to not be effective. I think or perversely effective to the point where it increases the ratings and then the networks like further promote the the defector or the person disrupting the debates. Yeah, I just don't know. I don't know that as a form of communication and science outreach debate is where I think scientists should be. Putting forward their energy. I don't know. What do you think? Patrick. Well, I kind of agree that a typical sort of debate platform is just kind of who says words better. Which is not. A way it's a way to judge the two people, but it's not a way to judge the idea that they're debating necessarily, but science in general is in need of some people that say words well too. So that other people can understand them. And that's part of why we started the show. I don't know if we're fulfilling that obligation, but we were in pursuit of that to some degree when we started this. So it's not a problem that's going away. And it's a problem that science and scientists should take seriously. But yeah, I'm not sure you can judge an idea based on basically what you're saying to performers that talk about it on stage. Yeah, it's happened before the people have asked us to have like creationist on to debate with us on this podcast. And I've kind of said no just because I don't think it's affective. I don't think it's convincing. I think you're just giving a platform to a person who maybe doesn't have. I don't know. It's something I think about I think my opinion on this made. Change in Volve as I continue to experience the world. But where I'm at right now. I I'm not sure that unless yeah, I think I feel like a confrontation between two people without an audience is going to go a bigger distance towards actually convincing somebody of something else. I don't know I'm just rambling here kind of onto something there conversation where you're not trying to win it. You're talking about a what when the other person, you know, you're you're willing to concede. When other the other side has good points. And maybe when they need to. I don't know what it has to be a really well structured debate. Like Fletch, no mentioned in his in his Email. But I mean, I think the rhetoric behind the bay has really fallen from grace mainly from right wing pundits. Like, Bill O'Reilly and Ben Shapiro where it's more about like like logic traps. And Gotcha 'isms wearing deep trap the person, you are debating within a very miniscule straw, man. Like slip up, and then therefore their entire thesis is debunked. Somehow. Right. So if you have I guess you need a really good moderator to call people out on their rhetorical tricks. And just be like, okay, cute. Let's get back to the actual debate. Right. But they're usually structured in Scituate that you give you know, a certain amount of time to each side. And then there's some time to read bible, and then the audience votes or you just go home. Think about to yourself. You thought one Bill o'riley always give you the last word after yells at effort. Cut your microphone. Listen to for a little while squared. It was British production. Everybody had an American version as well. And it was like a debate show that was usually debating a much fuzzier like something like creationism versus evolution for me. There's not a lot of wiggle room there. Like, I would have a hard time thinking of an argument that creationist could make in their pursuit to damage or discredit evolution that. I would say like oh, fair point. Right. Because anything that they would say that would technically reduce confidence in evolution is something that I probably also the fossil record is incomplete. Okay. Yeah. But like your explanation of how everything got here doesn't solve that problem either. But this is intelligence squared one. It had more. The question was always much more nuanced. And then they would they would survey the audience before the debate started. And then they would survey the audience after the debate ended so you actually could get sort of a metric of who won quote, unquote. But even then it did usually come down to who has the better speaker like who was more eloquent and articulate or even just forceful and loud. And lead you hashing it. I was going to passionate. I was trying to be kind. So you even like the best moderated and debates that art about like truth and facts that are actually about like a philosophical topic that has a lot of nuance and room room to move about. I still don't know that debate is a very effective tool right now. I mean, I don't know that. Other than sort of political elections, and apparently creation versus evolution. I don't know that many thanks it. Get debated those this English like quiz show. I like. A few years back with Stephen Fry. I mean, that's probably why I like you quite interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was an interesting twist on the debate format where he posed different questions, and you could argue for against it or just say something completely nonsensical. And is humorous and light. But it's still like still really informative cue is great stood for quite interesting in the it was a it was extensively a game show where the panelists were competing against each other. Stephen Fry would ask a question, you would get points for either giving the correct answer or saying something that was related and interesting, and you would lose points if you gave an answer that was considered obvious. And the obvious answer is usually also the one that most people would just answer with their gut reaction until like one of the examples. I remember, Charlie you might debate this, and there were definitely times where I thought that what they claimed was the correct answer was maybe not so correct. But there was one where they asked like how many moons does earth have and so everybody buzzes in and somebody says one. And then klaxons go off because that was one of the obvious answers that the producers of the show had designated ahead of time as one of the obvious answers because there are multiple rocky objects in orbiting earth right now. Decides just our moon show Gin's. Yeah. So you could make an argument that we technically have more than one moon. We have the one that we can all see. And then there's other ones smaller chugged up thousands of our own moons at this point. Exactly. So that was kind of the way that the show went. Yeah. I think that's yeah. I don't know how you would game. A fi debate about topics of politics and religion. I mean because obsessively, you know, the creationism invade is a religious versus the science debate. How whatever the trappings of science are placed around it. So it's like you're taking the two things that you're not supposed to talk about in polite company and saying how do we actually have a meaningful discussion about them? I just don't know that doing it with an audience has ever that helpful or where where the presenters are trying to perform for. An audience implied are otherwise. Yeah. And I feel like the debate has shifted to just social media. We're just debating about everything all the time. But nobody's actually committing anybody. You just unfriendly people when they annoy you to the point of, you know, a c- their their hot take anymore. Right. Right. So just don't know. I didn't have kept toyed where I like responded to the points made by creationist lecture. I'd been to. But even then when I went to the lecture it was like, well, this is this is Bill does a lecture. There's going to be a question and answer portion, but it would be very rude of me to like monopolize the question and answer portion by just bringing up all the stuff that this guy got wrong. And so like, I, you know, went about it a different way I thought well like I have a lot to say about this. But I'm going to use a platform that I have I'm gonna let him have his platform. And I even had a conversation with the guy afterwards and told him I was probably going to work on something that was going to refute some of the points that I felt like he got wrong, and he was fine with that. But I think going into it in a very non confrontational way. Where I told him. Hey, you know, I really disagree with a lot of what you said. But I didn't. Want to rain on your parade. When you were invited here to give a talk. I think went further towards building a bridge than if I had been confrontational in a room where most of the people were likely to be on his side because they came to see him anyways. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah. No, totally. So maybe maybe that's the future is just like taking a breath and more of a long form response. That's not necessarily meant as a direct attack of the person in the moment. I also think we're just really bad at reacting this stuff in the moment. I think we get like it's very easy to get offended or upset in the moment when the little bit of time and distance can go a long way towards not having hurt feelings. No agreed. We all need to learn. How to listen. I mean, it's not a quality that's emphasized in the hyper individuality. Let's celebrate it in America. At least for the most part. I mean, this leads into our next PALEA pal. But for the most part the bait in scientific disciplines takes place in journals rather than in the moment. Right. You you spend wall. And even then it's it's still hard. Not to take personally. Yeah. She's been a longtime gathering your evidence and constructing an Elaine out an argument in a well sort of supported way instead of sort of zingers and and logic traps like Charlie was saying earlier. Well, I completely forgot we had another payment of house. So why don't we go ahead and transitioned over to there? I was going to make a joke about how we've failed to learn. How to listen, and I was gonna tell everyone to take our headphones because the show's over but thought over Patrick you have an Email. We have an Email from thanks for thanks for writing and Frank it's getting mail. Good discussion fodder. Appreciate it. Sorry. Go ahead now Patrick. Mail from Lisa s she's she's writing about episode two ninety five for we were talking about publishing and scientific publishing specifically. And she says Hello, I really enjoyed your discussion episode to ninety five about scientific publishing and reminded of a meeting night into the summer that included a publish or perish panel. I highly recommend giving the video of the panel of watch slash listen link below particularly if you want to get to righteous anger going, there definitely seems to be shift in how younger scientists think about the idea scientific publishing, but that shift is being dampened by visors dictating what journals papers get submitted to journals your management gets in the panel. A Representative from EM be oh, that's the European molecular biology organization mentioned that new rules require an open access could severely hurt society journals, which isn't something I had ever considered before. And wasn't something. I recall hearing you. In the episode do any of you have a take on how to or if we should ballots any new rules, requiring researchers to publish publicly funded research and open access journals with the potential drawbacks. Those rules could have on society journals that recycle their profits back into the society. She gives the links where we can watch this panel, which will include in the show notes outside dot com. Sure, she says thank you for the great show. It makes endless data processing much more enjoyable Lisa s. Right. Thank you. At least. Let's see thoughts on this. I didn't watch the entire panel. I think this video is something like an hour and forty minutes long. Some did watch a little bit of it. And I think that it is possible. Well, first of all, I don't lots of journals have incorporated, a sort of a two track publishing menu option one where you more or less pay less money. Get your article published and it's behind a paywall. And then when you pay more, and it becomes open access. So why society journals can't go that route? I think potentially open access journals will be tough on society journals. But I think society journals are going to have. Some travel surviving. I mean, lots of lots of societies have troubles of keeping themselves afloat as it is. Right. There are major societies in every discipline. But there's also once that are falling by the wayside every year. Things disciplined just aren't as exciting as they as they used to be, you know, fifty or seventy years ago when a lot of these societies were started, I know that will come a co society haven't heard from them for one. I just have an innocent question. I'm not trying to be snarky, but what is the pen of fit of the society like recycling the profits back into the society. But what purpose does the society? Yeah. I mean, I've I've had found them to be in have insular like old men clubs, right? But they have a meeting annually, and they have a journal, and they give out a few scholarships and awards to themselves. Yeah. Kind of mass Batory. But anyways, the other the other point I'll make is that in this video. She said there there's some people saying that even some fairly high ranking journals like perceives of the National Academy of sciences are seeing some fall and influence because they're not open access, and I'm like, well, that's kind of like saying, I don't know a channel that used to have great shows on it for anybody. Just deck lex state. Yeah. Kind of like saying everybody just watches planet earth on Netflix. When used to you'd go to Discovery Channel that I mean, it's true. It's not saying the contents not available. It's just saying you don't have these sort of trusted provider of well, you were trusting a provider to give you high quality content, and you resume that they were keeping up there into the bargain, which may or may not be true. I would be curious to know are most of these societies. And we're talking about like running out a prophet. And if so how much of that money is coming from the publishing fees that they charge to probably their own members, by and large who are already paying society do's. And I almost wonder if you put it to a vote if you took like some of the middle sized societies societies that aren't in danger of collapsing, but aren't your age and your GSI, and you're truly giant organizations? Right. I wonder if you asked the members, you know, put to a vote and said like, hey, what if your yearly dues went up by X amount? But if you are a member of the society, you can publish in our journal open access for free essentially or for a very nominal fee. Like, I feel like unless it is the publishing fees that are actually generating a majority of the profit for the journal, which is probably not as a stable business model in the future. Anyway, like, there's maybe a workaround, and I'm not suggesting that my work around woodwork? I'm just saying it's it's not inconceivable that there's space to innovate here. Because because like Charlie said, it's very insular. If it's a smaller society, most of the members are dues paying members. Most of the members are going to be published. Ones publishing in the journal. So you're just charging people three times charging them to be a member of the society. You're touching them to publish their article. And then if articles not open access your charging them again to access that article. So to me, that's like economically. I'm not an economist, but economically that that seems like a system that people are going to try to find a work around two and open access and pre print. Servers seem to be some of the work arounds that people are. Trying. Yeah. And I don't know why. You know, who who reads a fiscal journal anymore, and to doesn't just go to web of science when they're they're doing a literature review. You don't you don't start by flipping back through the the back issues of your favorite journal. I just don't see this. As being the the future of science the way scientists done anymore. I think you're probably right. So I don't have I feel like peer review in general is a good idea. I think that a lot of scientists that don't necessarily become academics. I feel like there's a lot of research that's been done that never sees the light of day just because people don't want to go through the abuses strong word, but but through the the gate that is pure review. And I I mean, I think it should be obvious. What's been peer reviewed in? What hasn't? But I think if you wrote at Lisa's or dissertation that should be put out there as a report of some sort. It doesn't add to be an article you can be clear that it wasn't peer reviewed to the degree that journal article is expected to be but that stuff needs to be accessible. I think that science sometimes we we like to think that. We're really smart, and we like to hold ourselves to high standards. But I think sometimes we shoot ourselves in the put when we do that. I don't even know if we're smart, I think we're good at designing complex systems. Yeah. Could be when we've done an excellent job when it comes to scientific publishing of creating an overly complicated system. And. Yeah. And like like, we talked about it in our original discussion back in two hundred five none of us has the answer to this. But if we let Evelyn act I think yes, there there might be some styles of publishing the go extinct. But I think we'll be better off in the long run, right? So at least I'm not sure if we got exactly what you which you were asking us. But I think that's our take on it in general that I think that open access and having some way of less resistance to get especially data out there that you gathered or a negative result to get that out in the literature. Even if it's not period viewed that making that more accessible to both scientists and non scientists would be a good thing, and it is much open access as possible. I think in general, we we think is good thing and societies are important. I think they've been important in our careers that we've had certain societies that we that helped us network and help us help pushes forward. But I think that some societies I think will exist regardless, and I think we're willing to let some societies go in order to further publishing in a way that more people would have access to the data into the conclusions. We'll put Petra. Rick. I got nothing to add. So thanks for it in. I like when people right in with good discussion topics I want, I know we kind of did a double down on discussion this time, but I kind of want more like discussion focused Baillio, pow. So that's something. I'm going to be looking for in the future. Just y to both. You my hosts and listeners sounds good to me that I think we have nothing left to discuss. So I will leave it at that. Check out the show notes for this episode with links to the things you can go look at science dot com where you can find that. And we also are on Facebook and Twitter and our Amazon affiliate. I'll plug that again. Right. Patrick. That's that's great please come follow our links to go to Amazon, buy whatever you were going to buy doesn't cost you a price this any different than what you were going to pay in. We'll get a tiny percentage. Help support the show. All right. Well, next episode. We have our final AG episode AG five The Empire Strikes back and Star Wars chronology, but nothing will be striking. Back. The only thing you'll be getting a whole lot more delightful. Science sword of visit science sort of dot com for show notes links to all the stories we talked about and waste interact with the host guests and other listeners. Science sort of is brought to you by the regular media network of podcasts with audio engineering by ten of the encyclopedia brunch podcast. That's all for this week. See you next time on science or. Send screen rib of. Talking to me or you like sent through of image. That's just our conversation. That was unintentional. Where is that? Here's are so bad at this. What happened in the chat over there? What? Did you? Mason in this. Yeah. When I tried to share my screen. I clicked the wrong icon just took him picture of all. I sometimes I'm editing. These in the clear light of day. I'm just listening to be like did Patrika, Charlie. Get hit in the head right before regarding this like what happened to my friends? I hope you guys are. Okay. Yeah. What? The same thing. All right. I'm going to bed.

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Thursday Afternoon Monday Morning Podcast 10-17-19

Monday Morning Podcast

1:17:22 hr | 1 year ago

Thursday Afternoon Monday Morning Podcast 10-17-19

"Hey what's going on bill burr and it's time for the Thursday afternoon just before Friday Monday morning podcast and I'm just now I'm not just checking in on I usually have just checking in on you see now your work weeks go in the cubicle battles and all of that shit but every once in a while we have a special guest circle and he's here to promote his new book which I've mentioned got an advanced copy you did all Hollywood bill over the summers called hard to handle the life and death of the Black Crowes and welcome thank you it's a pleasure to be with you sir and I gotTa Tell You I've Read I'm not a big reader you know what when I say go fuck yourself it means a little more now is yeah and you start you just you just start floating away like those hot air balloon guys down they just sorta somebody and I just got to say you know as far as like you know when guys write these books because you know there's always been these this band is done it's fucking over all the money that I don't know how you go back from that you know for me personally no that's that's done we're done like there's not a chance in hell that you're going up the way that they're nature dictated it just took me forever to recognize Oh they were always that way I thought you know it's easy to sail fame and fortune fucks with people tell you my the fucking vibe of this book I just felt like I was friends with the for twenty years we're in a pub everybody had cleared for signing contracts and all this shit and then there's always that you know the Farewell Tour Sorta big joke in music and so I always feel like when I read these books out and you just let it out because it's just like this so many epic lines one where the Jimmy page thing falls apart there was not a thankfully when the band blew up twenty fourteen and for the reason we blew up which was our singer decided after twenty seven years I'll just demand level I don't read much yeah yeah your book yes I know there's probably waiting for the reading people to tell me it's good yeah but the raiders I got him like this platoon this common goal let's just get our sought hours at what point is it now that go and you just float off into the abyss we started seeing our I started seeing cracks very early but what I look at them now as it's not cracks into the foundation of what the don't you don't know it it just throws gas on a simmering fire that's already there to begin with I mean it's like when Mel Gibson gets drunk he said things he we go I am not a big reader here we go and I have read I read autobiographies of like Ken Stabler what does it say about me that most people that like the book go first when a band starts with family it's really a family and when you have addiction and a family you have codependency in a family and so everybody brings their own bags to the shit show when you're going to the pay phone it was at Hyde Park in London it's just like I just felt like I was like God this guy if somebody asked him directions might merge them I drunk I didn't say those words you know what I mean I've been that drunk and I've been that angry and I don't go there because that's not me right and and was its cracks in the foundation of what I thought the band was everybody was already who they were and everybody responded to our success in our work load and all that in send me but I don't feel that what this book I well you know I am not going back Lou put it that way I mean you know back on that was the moment or did you sense along the way when you start seeing cracks in it and people what I was called taking the right who are just like Hey amita mind was I'm codependent guy who thinks I could make everything better like oh here are the Robinson brothers and they have their views is that there's always that feeling of hope well maybe the band's going to get back together so I can't quite tell it the way I would tell you if I had a few of times in the book only reason because I'm a fan of the band so I knew you work done but the amount of times I gotta give you gotTa give it up to what you guys accomplish as far as the amount of times sure when you're right there and then just something fucks the whole thing up it's like oh we're done and then just something else came along like maybe that happens twice in their issues and I stepped in and then and then we grabbed a guitar player and then we grabbed a base part everybody brought their own shit and so so when the cracks start to appear get it now as oh no that's just that was reality tapping me on the shoulder but me going not yet not now I don't WanNa know I'm Gonna I'm GonNa will this into a better place well I have to say the Indian and a lot of my response to people splintering off was to panic and freak out and like I've said a million times a band is a family and when a band am I gonNA say names or anything like that once you go up enough go get the but it's just like the Jimmy page sing falls apart the way that you tell that story he said this and this shit had and then I'm fucking minutes basically how the thing is it sounds like a like a conversation so and I was I'm really is to try and get another thing going like I was when you were saying yeah this panic I can make it better I can fix it was any of that like well I'm the fucking Drummer Zinger I sure so they a lot of people's minds if you listen to it on a superficial level there the sound of the band yeah so a guy like that can go I had fears that were primal of just my thing is splintering right now when I took a minute and said well what happens if this goes away I like I feel like a great band with Shit Drummer they don't exist I know you they're they're great bands who singers weren't great yes you know what I'm saying there's like those well I can get another Gig I'm good I'm great member of a team I mean I knew what my strengths were right and I knew that I could use those elsewhere I didn't want to I didn't want to go through that I looked at it like I'm Bill Russell and most basketball fans don't appreciate his greatness so I'm going to defend the rim I'm going to get every fucking rebound on my hip out and get hired and do that type of shape but then people always say about the drummer is only as good as your drummer drummer was it's true you fucked but me I've read a bunch of rocks I think one of the first ones ever read was like hammer of the gods sure a total shit show a Horse Shit Book saying the devil I'm not gonNa ever miss the one we're going to be right where we need to be and so that's how I play basketball that's how I played soccer I played sweeper I was just like I'm defame all fame and fortune and all that success of our early records was a mirror for everybody and so would it would it would I got out of the Mir was you know a lot of unser little two man crews within the three of us that that was very pow- looking back now it's real there's a lot of chemistry power in that by because and I step into me and Chris became inseparable and we're just bad cop good cop whatever you WANNA call having a fucking blast but then he's got his brother so there was that dynamic those right and it's kind of true on a certain level when the band implodes though as far as a drummer then trying to be like well I'm the drum sound of the blast in a local band that was much more easy to do and so I always wanted to be that way like that that idea of if everybody knows their role you're gonNA applecart like that how does it happen when like when the band starts out I always feel you guys it always seems like the guys are just starving you ride in one van you he can hear about questions I want to ask you as far as what it was always killed me as far as like if this is a huge band like you'll ban and you got this killer drummer like you that the thing about it is is if you're a killer singer you can you're like the way people listen to music it's like it's the AH I this this this I'm telling you this is the one is far as like if everybody you know they read the books to see what was it really lie did they get along and all of that and all this and I don't want all the attention I'm happy like let's go right and then when I I saw Chris my second night in Atlanta sing and I was like that fuckers got something you know like Holy Shit and all the outlet passes and you guys go Duncan shoot threes and I love that role that's me I got people love playing with you I got it I'm under I got this you guys go do what the fuck you want who's GonNa give a shit if this thing everybody goes and goes solo this guy is the lead singer he's the face he's always run his yep and the the interview so he's all nothing will ever stop us when was the first time you were in that band and you don't you have to go into thinking I'm GonNa make it hundred percent months later when he asked me to play with them me and rich and Kris me and two brothers but then Chris and I were like best friends you had these two weird yet brothers that were at each other's throats and we all brought a real intensity to it and and we didn't know what to do with it and it took a while to figure it out and we needed help to figure it out but it was built on a pretty strong to this day convinced if I'd stayed in my original band that band would have made it yeah that's the only way you have to think well I mean I've I've manifest that a Lotta Shit from nothing and and there's talent but there's also desperation and there's there's a lot of fuel to make sure this fucking thing go somewhere and that was all really special so from the from the jump I was like I'm going to ban with brothers this ain't about me on any fucking level publicly behind the scenes though we're all here together and by God I'm GonNa have my say and I'm GonNa will these things into I've never great ideas five years ago Yeah I love that but it's true and but but you're going to be five years goes fast now and so you know I mean for it was it really was amazing to just finally kind of have somebody just go all right this is what the fuck happened and this guy just fucking assholes right this whole year I just told everybody to begin the I'm taking this year off I well I did this I'm two years off and I just said I'm I'm done and I had to keep saying it but then it gets real easy you're lucky but the amount of times that happened you guys because this is a one thing that's only sad about reading the book is just like I fucking loved the ban I love everybody in it but like but on the other side realized early on if you just tell people you're going to do something it helps you to get it done so go go public with your dream I said it yeah that's what I asked why haven't hey man I mean my my radio sports reports were talk radio career started because I sat in on an afternoon show in Nashville a couple times and I'm the right guy coming in who knows and being in a band to to then I moved to La in two thousand and two for a few years and I had this idea for TV show now ultra the end of the story is nothing happened but a whole lot of shit but that process really taught me that you know there's a whole I'd already learned this but I still learn it there's a lot of people that just don't do they just don't go have a radio show Steve Gorman rocks it's a nationally syndicated classic rock show after I had a nationally syndicated sports talk show those things both started from meet talented guy could get you on once a week and we even get a sponsor give you one hundred bucks or something and I went no actually I'd rather have my own show which as I said it I might with airline and North Carolina after my second show Ashville they both went good is trying out the new our and shit and I gotta say justice like Oh man I will this time for a beer bourbon but like I like watching people get drunk too it's funny somebody it's like I didn't think I could go into a bar there's times I had a couple of shows and happened to get to a place where nothing happened you know what I mean like I pitched I got deals in place I put things in it was like it was in development for a week and then it stopped and then people got fired my saying because he goes what the show and I said it's musicians talking sports and this is a Nashville ten years ago eleven years ago and he goes like upfront and the same thing and kind of sustain something right because I I know I was never I honestly never thought always the plan and I've got this idea of had it forever not true sounded great at the time and ten days later I'm like this is Steve Gorman Sport I'm on the air going well yeah I kind of see that we have a lot of musicians want to sit in d.c think you could really host to show and I said yeah man I was going to be a sports caster was broadcasting major in college avert better yeah and we were going to Clemson Florida state the next day and we had we rented this house on a fucking lake and shit cigars the whole thing in March of eighty-seven shake your moneymaker came out in February of ninety I mean it's insane I recorded it in the summer of eighty nine so I've been playing for two years when we made that I record and went into it yeah but but the ban that you but in all in the all time thing I have a buddy back in Atlanta Teddy Mirny always said you gotta singer and a drummer everybody else can fake it this is it too late to do this and the answer is always I've just been like no I mean you won't be a high jumper at eighty yeah it's the best time commit to buying a drum kit but the main thing I wanted to do what my whole life has been abandoned band to me is no different than a basketball team I mean I really looked at it like that and I and so life rewards action that's been my thing for a long time now sometimes the reward is you get shit kicked out of you but there's a reward is you get a deal or a door open studio had to play to a click and I went under studio the first time to do a demo for am records and I've been playing for three months Jesus Christ was oh because I was starting at twenty one I was smart enough to go. I didn't have those Keith Moon Years in the basement by myself like every other drummer Bobby Brady's just going crazy studio studio the guy and I walked right over the producer's name was Steve Ground Back and I said Man I've been playing for three months I am so far in over my head yeah and the guy next door had moonshine and I was just slowing oh can I justify this for the experience I didn't but you'll learn how to pitch your show that's what I mean you learn how you learn how to spend my show didn't get picked learn how to condense ideas exactly but I'm now on my second always I always played like I played basketball like just fucking be confident you can fuck up but don't be don't question yourself right and so when I and little bit about sports and I can speak in complete sentences Servi- always underestimating you I come in I tell some jokes funny they like it the PD station goes man you WanNa come back next week so but anyway so you manifest thing this is great for my listeners to because I have a lot of questions and everybody in there like you know hey I want to do this how you can I d I well I I had a double life I mean I was living a full life but really my brain was like okay so just always remember when you come out of that fill you don't want to hurt so I was making up for lost time so I knew I just got a police straight beats man I I didn't play a fill for a year and a half I just played I just played straight and tried not to speak the family dynamic what everyone's got their shit they bring in their issues but I didn't have an issue of who the fuck am I I knew I was and my playing was mm-hmm and soccer when I played sports I would be nervous before a game and I'd be like we're GonNa get our shit kid but once the game started I think slowed down and because I always had the vision dropped out of college and moved to Atlanta to start a band and the band drunk one thing at a time you gotta get bad around the Toms you gotta keep it in time I mean I would literally go to gigs in college and see bands and that's what I'd be I'd be watching the drummer the whole time thinking I'm going to do that one day okay I mean well but you know what though like a lot but unlike a lot of musicians have my I have my my problem Christus was like dude come play this demo for us and I said I've only been playing for three months he has now come on you can do this and he said yours fucking good as anybody else around here so I went into the he's out of shape and then he was starting to question himself and I'd see drummers fuck one thing up and the rest of the Gig suck you can see that Oh right Oh i always knew that because I been drums when I watched drummers my whole life I played in my head forever I really did and I always knew if I ever do it this is how I'm going to do it I spent years thinking about beat up that to me was my success level and I could do that and I could hit hard and so I'd go see local bands drummer would be good but by the third song you could see he was like so you just tell me what to do I'll do it but I have no I'm flying blind but I also had a confidence that I knew how to play and I could always play straight beat like and I and I also I just did it I always knew what to do and if I made a mistake I just oh I fucked that up but it wasn't because I didn't know what to do it's because I didn't execute do the guy recording know that you're only been playing for two years it's about ready to burst that's been my experience it's the most wonderful time of the year Halloween it's the most wonderful time I remember when planning your and and so I started kindergarten at like whatever I mean I graduated high school and my first week of college I turned eighteen so but I was I was always the youngest kid class and I always felt like I was behind everybody because at first and second grade ten months is a huge difference in development so my my my sports came a little later stay back in first grade I fucked took me forever to get through college I became a dad lay so I feel always behind I I'm the eighth kid of China oh well my first demo was which was I wasn't even in Mr Crow's garden yet. They had their drummer left to go join another band that got a record deal put on your body soft like softer than a fluffy kitten dressed up in a pumpkin costume pumpkins are rather hard in my world like softer than the brains the fuck am I I remember reading in Modern Drummer Yeah fucking late thirty years ago I didn't want to date myself dirty years ago that's right costumes won these boo that's what they rotate their spooky soft white designed to be the best thing you've ever biondi beyond days no more sweaty balls BND's biondi's see Gorman used to work at a mall are selling brothers were great athletes and I was where I should have been but I felt like I was way behind where should be you know so I always felt like I'm not there yet I'm not there yet and the drumming thing was the first costume as a kid was like the most fun you could have pre-christmas and now that you're an adult holocene fills less Halloween am I right Gosto goes noises yes please give us your rendition of what goes noises are piece of shit old how settling let's see galvanized pipe and I remember re- you had a quote in there you would be like the ban had that that first album came out and you've been playing drums only three and a half years you went from my first zombies love to eat while you get the idea these are the softest undies known to man and there are also available in all sizes extra small four x and I already knew I was late I already I already I always knew starting late so like I I don't I don't have time to make mistakes have always been lied I started comedy late yeah first time I ever was at least prepared to be late like a new all right hey I gotta do the the advertising here but Bob Eric Mattress built for everyone else next please mentioned all the talking points below I always do if you type it I will read it Hell Ix Helix sleep is or excel software. 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Q. and wired mattress and CNN called it the most comfortable mattress they ever slept on well Lord knows they lastly but not legally Helix Helix there's nobody on the planet like you snowflake so why would you buy and we played the song a few times and he came out we played him the song and he goes dude you're fine just do exactly what you just did and just don't just if you don't speed we built a weight held sleep built a sleep quiz that takes two minutes to complete and they use the answers to match your body type and sleep preferences to Eur per holy Shit that went well easy yeah yeah I can do this or how many comedians kill their first time on stage and then and then you know I've done that I got up I said to the guy look I don't know what I'm doing he goes well just we just gotta find a pocket and I was okay cool what's that he goes the pocket you just find groove and stay there go oh I can do that to the book like I know you've told all those stories and everything just for something different what was the high point for you like what Gig you sit in Donna during the last election oh bill when are you going to let it go bastards. They should've hype Bernie Sanders they have a ten year warranty and you can try to get the festival the festival backstage it's all trailers and we carried a giant tent with us that was bigger than this room it was like a military tent for the generals to hang out in indies a Nashville jumped up and had a ten minute thing and I was like Holy Shit I could be a comedian and then I went back and it was awful and I was like no I couldn't was the second time you went three we were we were in Europe during festivals and headlining Glastonbury and all these giant festivals and we had so we go we go from we attached it off the trailer and it was we had rugs down beanbag chairs lava lamp suka pipes stereo the size of a fucking you could run a Gig Oh my God I got no material wait a minute it's seventeen minutes because Y- you kind of get out of that flow but to get back back there the band's just on the album the GIG or whatever you would just sitting there going like wow look at this thing that we built I can't believe summer ninety three four hours before leaving in a play and there's like Sinead O'Connor and a couple of guys from DEF LEPPARD and and some European dance band I've never heard of is on the bill what were you thinking about the first time of course yeah you're not present of course I did that I do that this past week I do it yeah you just like it sounds I mean we filled it with vibe in everywhere we went that was where all the other bands would congregate they'd come over we had cases of beer and all all liquor and it was just it was the central location backstage so there were shows where I'd be sitting I'd be in there I'm drinking a beer it's up and if you don't play steady it's going to be fine because he's a good producer not do I probably played four or five takes and he goes you're done drum tracks great we got not you know I'm like and then some German punk band and then kid from ugly kid Joe and they're all in our tent and we're you know and we were always very hospice despite being a pack address and this is one of these Thursdays we have the one and only Steve Gorman Drummer from the Black Crowes drug up trouble with trigger hippy that has a new album out called can wolves most of the time in those settings we were always hospitable we did have that weird southern like oh well oh come on he got to put out a spread and we always at that you might get yelled ad in there but we were gonna you're gonNA come in and drink are beer and the but there was also in play a little bit of the power dynamic of fuck man where we have made it like this and the band was at its best like it was all clicking right then could you think stuff like that during a show like look what we have you know we were feeling it but those that whole summer there was that feeling of like headlining Glastonbury on her second album it was like mother to a bubble zone that was all about what it was locked in and I'm listening to everybody else every single every stroke is the most important thing going into some weird cocoon and when it's over not only is the audience really thrilled and happy but we just did something I can't talk about in a linear fate that's that is to me that's what it was all about it was never about look at those people cheering that was great and of course I like that I prefer them to have a great night page having fights and arguments and really really I mean literal punches being thrown and go go fuck yourself that's a walking to the stage really will could see a crowd response and you could see either good or bad but it was but no in those days I was way more I stepped in exact same moments where you'd have seen either the brothers or even sometimes me and with Chris going no I'll tell you what how about this how about you go fuck yourself and that and then walk and then walking out to start the show and it didn't matter because it get a couple of songs in and if it's going well there could be moments who are between songs what they care about is the next song can we start it and then they both go fuck off and then I would count in what happened and then and then and then halfway through that song we're GonNa do you know if I break stick and getting another stick out of the bag either right or left if that means I'm dropping if I'm not GonNa hit that snare with full the not but the thing that you can never replace and the thing that wants to ban lost it could never get back is that there's an essence to six people going on stage and all fuck you know just so in the second the show's over it's gone and I'm out and I don't even remember what happened and so when the band was when we when I had gigs like that listen the the brothers were to be arguing right and then I would go hey why don't you both fuck off you're both wrong okay there's twenty thousand people here that don't care about you or you oh force there's only one person in a field of sixty thousand people that knows it and it's me but it fucks me up the other guys in the band wouldn't even know but I'd be like mother even you said go fuck yourself so you can turn around and smiled as that that feeds so that feeling transcends all during the best of times yeah Chris everyone smiling again 'cause something could have happened that immediately it's over it's gone didn't mean a thing that's what I was going to ask if you play and he's like when you're playing that was like a two way mirror essentially the audience just saw black wall but you could stand right behind it and see everything so I would stand I was and we did we finish a two nights in Basel Switzerland and so after the at the end of the sound real basil's what they said Hey you know come back to our hotel and you know we'll hang the rolling stones have exiting amazing they we were playing in in Europe and ninety five with the stones on the lounge tour and like woody ron would is like come over and we'll have a we'll have a drink you know which edge with which means a lot more than a drink and so we do are set there never moves he stares at Charlie for the whole song he never they just grooved and me enrich just looked at each other didn't say a word but we had a real thing like mid-nineties we would go up and down throughout a Gig and you'd have a high and the low and high and low and if it ended on a high if by the encore everything was right and we're like that like that that's we understand that and it's a even saying it now man I can still get goosebumps like we had those they had that thing and then this close to Charlie Watts but but invisible I was right by doing an arm's length I'm right behind Charlie Watts for shows and Keith would come over and stand in front of Charlie the show and then at some point about twenty minutes before their said ends we're told just be fine you know beyond stage and be ready to await instruction and facing Charlie so keith is looking directly at me essentially and they'd lock in for an entire song and I'll just stand there and and when they lock in its nineteen th and then about ten minutes I'm not even going to remember it trip it really is a collective feeling when you guys who get off stage do yeah we we could walk to the backward supposed to be it nothing else mattered all right can you tell the stories one of my favorite blew me away is the when you guys were opening for the stones how ah you were just shooting the show and I was like dude what we're going to wait a few gigs and and then I was talking to you and everybody else in the band seventy two all over again and I just and I actually there's a strong gretch kid same kit there's a story in the book where we're me enrich you're standing there and they do monkey man and key steep twelve vans or maybe it was ten but whatever that's what it looked like and we just get in the back to vans of the entourage and we're like Oh this is interesting and we're just sitting there did you pussy take a shot motherfucker and these gentlemen the Black Crowes really I'm not exaggerate came to see us at bottle rock in two thousand thirteen festival in northern cal you know whatever they they bring us down off the back of the stage and there's this fleet of Volkswagen vans and that's the tour sponsor so that's all there and the back of the stage and you hear a stadium people going crazy and then you could hear like oh the noise is done it's just fireworks they're taking their bows the people hustling them and the fireworks are still going up right and the crowd is still going to the whole stadium awash in light and fireworks and then and and then you hear this this is fireworks start shooting up from were in between the back of the stage Oh yeah yeah and and you walked the stage with US I don't know if you remember I remember and you were going that doesn't happen to me you go and you you you're just gonNA play don't you need eggs there's there's ten minutes left in the show and then they go okay come on black rose you how many are you you know it's like it's the band anyone had their wife or girlfriend I guess but I hadn't even noticed this but the the the the the vans are surrounded by police cars and motorcycles and one count every one of them hits all their flashing lights every one of those guys has his own damn with his personal assistant or whoever the singers have they fill in the rest of the vans and it's like they're all move there hustling and they're surrounded by already walking to their places and I'll see in a bit and you're looking at me like what are you fucking do it but I was like what we do you know it was but I mean but there's been off one lane road that were on and then all of a sudden we're on a bigger like an access road and then up a ramp onto interstate highway in Switzerland all of the you were like man fuck you know this really great beacon to us like let's go be those guys and so anyway all this to say so after one of these the exit you can see they've blocked off the highway so when we get on the exit ramp there's no traffic coming the whole next stretch of road is blocked off there's no access and then all of a sudden like the whole area rin becomes lights lights up like you know all these lights go on around us and down the steps on the back of the stage here comes make your keys and where the fireworks are being launched from to my left I'm seeing fireworks guns just going and it's like a fourth it's six hundred of them and then to the right roads are blocked off there's no other traffic and all the fans are still watching the screaming and watching fireworks and within a minute of the first police light turning and what the fuck you're in the Bourne identity yeah for real engish down the highway for about six minutes tops and then right off ramp all the roads through the town of Basil blocked off every Road Ron is there's like it'd be read doesn't matter on we're pulling onto a highway the entire so it's it's it's a dozen if not twenty police cars cars and motorcycles we get onto a highway and they just okay you guys are all in those back to vans and it's like twelve vans in two rows of two six two two by sides and we're going we are driving at a hundred miles an hour in a tight blue angel like formation and we're we're none of us are saying a word we're all just million miles away this is this is them this is our version of slowly walking to our bus you know what I mean and then we walk into this through this door that's unmarked and and this is so cool and so works well for one thing we're we're standing on the side stage were and they had a scrim that came down right behind the drum kit a black scrim in a multilevel it was like bigger than my house in Atlanta where he lived for his four days in town and we went up there and had a great great night with them and then the mic didn't come up but everybody else did in the dark behind behind the stage and you can still plan your plate you know do they finish of jumping Jack Flash and it's going going how George Carlin had like the record as far as like a performer getting out of venue they would still be like he would be like already paid and suddenly we're like what the fuck were surrounded and the entire motorcade pulls out of the back of the stadium and there's like a a of all the vehicles just stop and then the door opens if we just step out and then all of stones and other everyone's on the sidewalk like and they're just all already blew through it and then we just pull up outside this building that's an unmarked it just looks like an old two hundred year old wall fortress thing and all the courtyard and it's just this they called it a hotel but it's really just like a palace residents were just the rolling stones day when they're in town apparently and what he had his own apart the whole the the the thing was it's not just isn't it cool to be rolling with the stones it was just a question of we thought we had gotten to some great level and that that was getting your arms around how big they are it's like you just think about I saw the other day something about you know edge has his mountaintop and Malibu compound or wherever he lived up there celerion Oh my God that's a 'cause I remember I remember Bill Cosby was told the story one time about site you know thanks a lot you guys are great artsy later and it was just right out the door in the car and gone like he was fucking gone like they were they were still clapping uh-huh Charlie weren't there everybody else but just that was just one blit private went to go do cardio I'm sure he did that was one I mean again the way it was just like we will behind the stage and then boom every just happening in your head spinning and then all of a sudden you just sitting in Keith Seton his shepherd's Pie for fifty years but the genius of the fireworks show so you still entertaining you don't stuck in that case they literally 'cause ridiculous traffic jam they get out of that Schnitt show me well I mean we were laughing and castle that you would have driven by never even seen ever even seen we we by the time we got to what he's room I promise you forty the fifty thousand people in that stadium were still stick just waiting waiting for the wrong you know to to get some leg room to move they're still just slowly in the aisle you know and and we played buffalo who was three zero and it was it was it was a hard-fought win so something about steelers patriots it's not catch but it was a catch and just for whatever reasons just some teams just do well against other teams like the dolphins always beat us at home and the rules don't exist you can buy whatever you want and I mean just and that's the stones I mean I I want you to these bands that are just at that place where there's no I enjoy racing we're almost halfway through the fucking NFL regular season which as we how fast it goes six games in out of a sixteen game schedule as Tennessee Titans Fan I hadn't noticed I know you guys are what do you think of the new uniforms I like they suck I mean when when football games and then I'll tell you look good this fucking asshole today that caused me my own impatient caused me to fucking scratch the rim on my fucking car now you're also a big sports fan so broncos have always fucking just been killing us you know I forgot I haven't even said where people can get this where they can go to barnes and nobles and get off your fucking ass and go down to a bookstore just reminded me you know we met 'cause you did my podcast in New York City the first time we met in that hotel room yeah you came in and did when I was doing a Steve Gomer sports like this thing of like Oh wow we're we're still just on the first lap of world as a big band where it was just an incredible thing to everyday life favorite story that didn't make the book we just like fuck well there's a whole chapter that I took out because it really doesn't it's a standalone episode hilarious he went to a promise something great played the Redskins we played the steelers the first week Ben was in that week I was probably our best way then we play want at the end of two thousand and one the ban went away came back in two thousand five and then it went from five to thirteen with a couple years off in eleven and twelve and I've had I thought of it I was like what is the edge do like I'm sure he's got a helicopter to get the town I mean you see these guys all of course you get to this point where like nothing really and so everybody in the band you didn't you couldn't really gauge what anybody was GonNa do from this Guy GonNa fuck and flip out and throw something to and he was talking about it and I thought that that was cool and then to see that I was like I mean that's I mean that's like a presidential motorcade you're in Oh one hundred traffic doesn't exist the satellites are kind of done for now but they rehearse in his house in his basement he's got a PA he's got a drum kit got the whole thing I played him the record he loves on no gay it's it's finished it's done and then our bass player Johnny Colt one day goes hey a friend of mine he's The tour manager for the Georgia satellites allies to you anymore but then I what my thing about this I don't understand that wh- what place do you write from then when it's like at some point you gotTa have some Dick cut you off and traffic the band and the life and death of the Black Crowes Steve Gorman it's wherever you get books it's literally it's the IPAD but you read books with yeah ars advance I went to the record store worked there and I put in my two weeks notice and three weeks after I quit I had to go back to work because I'd spent two thousand dollars I was like Oh five points in Atlanta it's still there I still go there every time I'm in town the owner Danny beard dear friend of manager Schoenborn I lived in his house for a while I'm still gas and we talked a lot about the Patriots and the steelers yeah that's like ten ten years ago yeah and we've I think we we haven't lost them sense and they beat us one time in one of those horse shit and I wrote it I wrote the book I wrote like three times what is the final book so I've got a shit ton a more material but there's an entire stint it was easy to edit it because it just ah I quit on Halloween and I was back at Thanksgiving weekend hey guess Uis back and then today shake your moneymaker was released I was there putting it in the bin the day it came out I was still working at irregular and how how much how much later before you could we well we hit the road like three weeks later and then I never came home I mean we were out did you has nothing to do with anything else but we got sued by a guy in the tell it really quickly in nineteen eighty nine we we made our first album in the summer of eighty I'm just standing there bumping into the gun and trying to get backstage meet the bags they're in a castle you never gonna find you can't find it was their second sandwich and the the officiency I loved it in the book because it really just the way it was actually better than here he said this way but just like is he fucking why is there a punchline to this because you were like halfway through and I was like I just sent it to you yesterday or whatever it was and I was like well you guys were all such characters people say like man why didn't you spend so much time on that second part and I'm like just fatigue it's the same stories just change the names we had we had a different guitar player what she is it any said if we ever want to rehearse in his house we free rehearsal anytime and so now where to place our advanced from the label was five thousand dollars Jesus that's what we got to make sure when you first got back to me I was doing a movie too I thought really busy and I just kept I would stabbed saying the morning texted me and I the first text I went is this were you know yes but we haven't had we've had like Alabama's September schedule era played the dolphins the jets where their quarterback had mono guy just gonNA quit out of nowhere that it had that thing you know when you Binge Watch your show watch the book it's funny because you know there's a whole the the band moneymaker so that didn't last long that's a camera and we didn't get it for months when I got my one thousand great I it's like I have to go it's like a if I'm in town I have to go at least walk in and say hi can't not it's my last job that's awesome manages and we didn't have a manager yet and we said no we're we're going to get a real manager like a big time guy which is who he ended up getting Angeles who is amazing but suits through the fall you're starting to piss off but we also didn't want to lose free rehearsal so that we were navigating this thing no one ever said okay you'll do it but we did say you can be our tour manager of eighty nine we rehearsed it this Guy Kevin's house and then we said we'll do you can be our tour manager that's what you do he kept begging us I wanNA manage you I want to manage your manager we kept saying no absolute kindles the audio book is read it I'm the Voice of the book if you need thirteen in hours and thirty to me and I read it very fast abandon your first tour it's it's it's it's real easy long story short he quit his girlfriend had a baby heated I know and this whole thing went down where we had to actually kinda get in his face and go hey motherfucker the you're not a part of this sense sense when an English is an asshole for a while that accent works pretty jarring he starts to say satellite done I wanNA manage you and we're like yeah great great guys all right well we got you gotta get this book you got you got another one for literature I didn't finish the story for Rockwell but but I just thought it was cool you will work in a record store until we had a record release party in Atlanta her water broke and that's when he realized she was pregnant he realized she was pregnant when her friend called and said come to the hospital she's having a baby how long she's pregnant like she didn't tell him she kept it from him anyway that's not my story to tell my story L. as he sued us a year later and said that we had made what he drives the Van Subtle with the club get them to a hotel pretty simple it's fisher price management skills but he's not making business to know non she was pregnant you can mold that one over for minute big shock to him he quits we say thank God we dodged a bullet way way way we don't have time busy until he had venzke senior she was drinking with us that night at our record release party she fat she's not a small woman but at him a partner in the band and he was entitled to One Sixth of All the prophets from shake your moneymaker and he based his lawsuit on a doodle that I drew on a Napkin with breath but not man not not at all and in fact he was with us the night we met Pete he was there when we hired Pete and pizza you already have a tour manager who's done it the point is he quit this is a whole nother pintail the baby kicking a whole nother podcast wow and I remember thinking what kind of guy lives with a woman it doesn't sharpy and he said that was our contract and that went from me in one thousand nine hundred nine sarcastically making fun of him for being emotionally overwrought asshole to him putting us into a courtroom and it went all the way in a nineteen ninety-six we were on court TV for two weeks defending you have a manager that believed in you or is he back no no no I mean oh at the at the bookstore I mean at the record store posing the record stores it's called it's called waxen facts it's record was done you quit before it was released so you are entitled to a sixth of our debt at that time if anything we were ninety grand in the whole to the label the Fuck you talkin if I can think of the whole point was this guy that we were hearst in his basement a couple times and he's a fun Guy English dude I love your band fantastic and you can't so it was easy to take out it's like its own separate island because they get to talk to that guy and be like really well threatening to and we'd see them around town helps against this guy please tell me you one hung jury sixty six so that means you and then we we had the subtle we settled with them that's why they do it because fucking great pete was thrilled we had this guy so people listening to manage these guys sets up your travel in the fireworks going on and this is Yup Yup have an end and and we had it was it's an incredible hole but anyway but that whole story in the book is a standalone chapter it really doesn't move the narrative of anything yeah one of my favorite Steve Gorman moments other than watching you play live was when you did the Dean del Rey stand up in his birthday thing where you money and the only guy who made money was the guy fucked up everything and then sued us so he actually we not only did we not make money off this thing we ended up losing money this guy was like okay he is given direct orders from the manager and he just he's a logistics guy at that time very simply not do you get to a point with tour manager huge but when you're a brand new was like Kevin I had a project doing not what is wrong with them what what did he say look man I mode a mode of I'm like you we met you after right did something I'm not GonNa say what it was but I did something a while ago and the one guy involved in it none of us made any playing but to watch you play different material to see how does how was he in this environment and just totally nail the Phil Rudd thing then it was fucking it faced at his house and fell face first into the fireplace and told us that y'all I'm going to sue you mode yeah yeah so how it works in show business or anything has any legislation attached to a won't move forward he knows that so he knows we have to settle it was just like there's always that fucking guy yeah thing went away yeah nothing happened and this fucking asshole you know like you made fucking ten grand he's the guy in Goodfellas that they finally just slit his throat I can't tell you how many I've done so many interviews and they go the Angela's ashes of rock bio everybody says that's the greatest thing look man I'm I'm old or hey you know I'm a fuck up and you guys are going to do something with this and who's GonNa take care of me so what's killed me is our I didn't want to talk about all the premier for the thing he showed up with the giant like gash on his forehead because you got shit tonight we're going to lay waste to these people just like Jesus Christ and then I was watching you play I was having such a fun time watching you play I forgot that they'd like the and I remember everybody's shown up key Kevin like a good time you just fucking show up like you like the deadpan how are you what's going on and then Danes like hey man I was going to have to sit in for one that you had to play yeah yeah yeah which we're not gonNA talk about that part but you fucking like I already was such a huge fan of got the Steve Gorman rocks she got the new trigger hippy albums and rocks is a classic radio show on Westwood One cumulus at syndicated nationwide trigger hippies album full circle and then some up and he's throwing some names around and I got a that reminds us you call him victor that I'm not on the road when that goes down because I I definitely want to see that but I'm so happy for you man what's your version of the great I know it's your version you gave me you know but you you William provided the greatest blurb and I very rockaway is going to be a great time tonight and you just said a great time and you just pointed out to all the empty seats you go you see out see that out there that's going to be fucking carnage allow the show is going really good or would you be worried that that would zap you out of whatever zone you in that you know I I was in a different I didn't think of it in those terms I mean I would is incredible it's tonight I will I will I will never forget we need to do it again is what we need to do while they're deans cooking up something he's he's definitely cooking up something there's an anniversary of something coming Matt last week it's available everywhere you get music and hard to handle heart hand off a life and death is the Black Crowes the fucking greatest book I ever read thank God is like a by the Way Korea where my buddy adversity always says the mob we get fucking wacked and it's the end of the problem with a lot of stuff before you get ever read it's on the back of the book your quote it's incredible if you never read Angela's ashes it was about this kid Irish kid amazing growing up in Ireland and it was just this heartbreaking the story of his dad was just a raging alcoholic and that but every once in a while he would like you guys he turned around and turn around and coming out with Jimmy page he would fuck and get some money he and you know for this study the figure out what makes comedians funding now immediately I'm thinking any comedian worth anything is not going to be participating there I think it's people who aren't funny only somebody who's not funny would try to figure out why the fuck something's funny absolutely we think in bits rather than scripts I think it's because I think our minds constantly going in our minds constantly going whether it's so they came up with this whole thing that comedians are all sociopaths or some fucking oh I saw it I didn't like it that's ridiculous they it is because I'm not saying there aren't comedian is the greatest compliment anyone will ever pay me for anything I ever do it's awesome hard to handle the life and death of the Black Crowes Steve Gorman thank you so much for coming on who are sociopaths firemen this mother's this all kinds of people that are leaders of the world who are sociopaths it just what it is is in that fucking thing or if the new one is struggling they'll participate in GonNa give bullshit answers just to make a friend laugh for themselves left right looking at something else do you have that problem I think a lot I think a lot of a lot of myself in a lot of my friends have that yeah I think it's and do you think that that's why this frank mccord yeah Frank mccord when you sent me that quote I swear man I looked at it and I just I was I was overcome with warmth like that thank you guys for listening have a great weekend cuts and I'll talk to you on Monday I'm ten minutes ago he's supposed to be home three in but every time you had that hope like there's no way the whole fucking I forgot it was written by an Irish back there's no way the whole book can be this you know they just you know some study you know who nobody knows who the fuck that it was trying to say that you know they interviewed all these comedians suit and it was just like they might as well just picture me sitting there not listening to somebody focusing on some ant walking across the table before this diagnosed with fucking a she's told me forever that I have add I never bought into it and she finally went to the website and she read all the things I think that had spelled out yankees across the chest and they were wrong yeah and they were hammered or whatever or they just were wrong with just like they were just in not organized where it said Yankee so it said and ski who scatter brained which is funny scattered rain maybe you don't mean yeah they always try to attribute like they had something recently where they tried to say that I wouldn't even know I wouldn't like when you were talking about that guy at the Yankee game who kept yelling they had this commercial whereas a bunch of Yankee fans now I'm not saying that I'm not a sociopath but you you know you're a family man you got two kids listen you seem all right listen I use psycho comedians might be narcissistic sociopathic which I misspelled spelled tracks how do identify sociopath telling signs and behavior what the fuck why won't this work come on my dad used to say people would disagree with that they were crazy crazy crazy solicitor this should dumb it down right one of the most common personality characteristics sociopath is there grandiose sense of self entitlement now I have that I go the other way sociopath off all so often display a lack of remorse yet and what the hell is that ski and everybody would just start laughing and every any new wendy do it yes like that guy he had now that guy was not a comedian but to keep the excitement going and people's focus like that some you just it's like when I look at people who can just fuck and play an instrument unbelievably played by year you know that's obviously just a hobby for me so I have a tremendous amount of respect for people could do that shit but like they could never just breakdown he would you just who wish break maybe they wish they could do comedy but the fact that somebody would do a study saying comedians are all sociopaths person never picked up a microphone once in their life and maybe maybe they had an issue with a comedian he had that comic timing when there was a lull in the game he knew wasn't important time in the game he knew if there was a TV timeout yup you know and he subzero path all right here we go what is it sociopathic gives a fuck common traits all right the common characteristics personality traits of sociopaths are based on for me what my parents were like hey can I go in this field trip Christ had a patient and the other day went on a field trip and one of okay parents but I mean antisocial the world's out to get you know not going over there they think of us we're not going all right check check one I know a couple of these guys are now wait a minute so I'm not no dude you're a narcissist who has add yeah yeah and most have a very manipulative personality covered by superficial charm. Jesus I know a couple of those I it'd be creative whether it's thinking of this whether it's being upset we're just we can't concentrate what I was a student because we're no different than anybody else I looked up the definition of sociopath okay there's like eleven things or something like that that you could do let's look this up going up right one thing I know antisocial parents is the combination of at least three of the common sociopathic characteristics paints a pretty good description of the common sociopath it's funny yeah he didn't want to drive over to do it now my dad my dad with now by look at it it's fucking hilarious I wouldn't do it either one kids forget about heaven as well as impulsively a lack of remorse already said that or what is generally termed conscience is typical for sociopaths disguise repeat himself l. off the bus he's got he's gone nothing you can do about it was one of my first jokes did my act whatever you wanted to do my dad had a patient and the other day and the kid died from it hip no longer suits they're self-centered needs the emotions of associate nobody even like the guy I was just thinking about being a sociopath he therapy like now what what makes this guy be able to play the guitar like that is so good at it envious nerd who can't do it that's what it is it's doc and all the ones he had hang on how to spot associate with sociopath Sorry with the sociopath trade just have remorse yeah I think so they feel bad they suck oh here we go I found one that's dumbed down hazards to draw others to them. Chronic lying is a characteristic of nearly all sociopaths recklessness in aggressive behaviors are other characteristics I Jesus Christ that was in every class classroom I ever was in sitting there acting like you were interested so they can call on you many sociopaths use manipulatives with that's yeah I would totally go do that's Hitman Shit that's Hitman I don't have a I don't have a sense of self entitlement no dude I hit me a blow someone's brains out and the blood on the floor sociopaths friendships and romantic partners are often frequently disregarded and replace when the relationship the criteria used by clinicians who used the DSM without don't they realize Morons WanNa read this I don't give a shit just make a list yeah there should be see two sandwich that's associated Gets mad that he got blood on his shirt right that was that was that thing in Goodfellas. I'm sorry about your floor that's that's it that's what it is mainly a narcissist but then I could be like really considerate and generous that Dude Lucas my son Lucas has Gemini and he's got when you look at instable I love how I brought a gem nuys and then you start talking about signs and then act like you brought it up all right how do you spell narcissist go on can have that boy can you have like most of it and then be a sociopath what do you think they're doctor versus not talked to I talked to by not Dr and the emotions of sociopath may appear to be sincere on the surface cleverly disguised by superficial charm and feigned interest introspection and self awareness because if you want to spot toxic people you cannot focus entirely on their behavior that's only half the battle thirty red flags being narcissist here we go all right all right era I actually lost interest half fucking through that all right we should stay no I think what's it called I I think that it's the remorse and I definitely think it's the first thing he said the sense of entitlement like this is the cool in here this when Jesus Christ cool like Reptilian Danske so this guy at the game and anytime there was a lull in the game would nowhere what what are we there will be a low in the game and he would go ahead this is a selfishness but it's almost like a good guy dude I'm a Gemini so I have like I can be really like I mean I think my son's agenda and Lucas you feel on edge around this person but you still want to but you still want them to like you what does this where in the mirror is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited power success brilliance view. Why didn't he wasn't even trying to be funny that came out of my mouth and I realized that just did that again okay we'll watch you look up to look up narcissist see the difference because nurses of times per day you come to rely on this over communication as a source of confidence wow also they give it to you than they take it away wise you mind me my uncle lies and excuses lies and excuses that's everybody knows creepshow have sick plasters your facebook page with compliments flattery songs and poems they text you dozens if not hundreds income up narcissistic traits or behaviors nicer cystic behaviors all right list palm trying to make it easy thirty lists like thirty things nothing more maybe we can booty or ideal love sees himself is special do this fucking Shit only have to affiliate is a good one this is a great one sees himself as special and should only have two geminis traits are dude he he's everyone of Jesus Christ when when he taken up the Crystal Ball are hang on I love I brought up the fucking fuck yourself demonstrates a constant need for admiration or approval exaggerates personal achievements while minimizing those of others that's fucking affiliate with others of similar stature should be friends with that Obama I can't believe we call the what the fuck and who who is you in this so what's the difference about this list well for one it's specifically about relationship but it's also about you each point requires all right quickly declares you their soulmate I don't do that compares you to everyone else in their life you just like my mother doc demonstrates a constant need for admiration or approval you know my dad used to be upstairs shaving

bill burr Black Crowes Bobby Brady producer Hollywood Bernie Sanders Europe Nashville Sinead O'Connor Gorman holocene Bob Eric Mattress Glastonbury Gosto three months two years one hundred twenty five dollar fifteen percent ten minutes
Clues that the medieval plague swept into sub-Saharan Africa and evidence humans hunted and butchered giant ground sloths 12,000 years ago

Science Magazine Podcast

22:42 min | 2 years ago

Clues that the medieval plague swept into sub-Saharan Africa and evidence humans hunted and butchered giant ground sloths 12,000 years ago

"This week's episode is brought to you in part by Kiko Kiwi. Co creates super cool hands on projects for kids of all ages that makes learning about science technology, engineering, art and math, fun inspired creative confidence this year with Q EKO Kiko is offering science magazine podcast listeners the chance to try them for free to redeem his offer and learn more. Visit QA co dot com slash magazine. That's k-. I w I c o dot com slash magazine. Welcomes the science podcast for March two thousand nineteen I'm Sarah Crespi and this week show. I talked with contributing correspondent was he weighed about new evidence that the same black desk. The devastated Europe in fourteenth century, also swum down and hit sub Saharan Africa and Meghan Cantwell. Talks with custodial petits about evidence for humans hunting and butchering giant ground sauce more than twelve thousand years ago in Argentina. Now, we have contributing correspondent Lizzie way to talk to us about a completely different story than we discussed last week this time, we're going to talk about the extent of the medieval plague most of us know about the black death in Europe. But turns out the plague may have gone a lot further than researchers had thought highly. Hi, Sarah would has up until now been accepted extent of display during the fourteenth century. So most of us know about the black death from these mass graves in London, and it really affected all of Eurasia sending from at least Russia over to the British Isles down to Egypt and North Africa around the Mediterranean world. But once he gets to Africa, it encounters this big environmental barrier, which is the Sahara desert, which is obviously a very extreme trying climate and sense. The plague travels in fleas infesting wrote on populations history. Had just sort of assumed that it had made it across the Sahara desert that it was too hard. Thus the societies in sub Saharan Africa had been spared this tragedy. Right. There was even some archaeology or lack of archaeology that back that up, right? There was no written record of plague hitting sub Saharan Africa during that time yet there are very few mentions of diseases. Well, there are very few written records from medieval sub Saharan Africa to begin with other. There are some some of them have some kind of mentions of epidemics diseases. But that doesn't really tell you what microbe is causing them. Right. And these plague pits haven't been discovered the big advance recently, of course, in the study of the black death in Europe has been engine DNA. You can actually find the DNA of the micro organism. That causes plague in skeletal remains of people who died from it. And that hasn't been found in African so far. I was going to say what is the new evidence? Why are we? Talking about whether or not the plague made its way across the Sahara, Sam historians and archaeologists have just been rethinking this a little bit sub Saharan Africa in particular has been envisioned as disconnected from the rest of the world during this period. This medieval period, European traders weren't going there yet people just thought it was often its own doing its own thing, which is kind of a colonial way of looking at things and people are sort of reevaluating the story about how Africa sub Saharan. Africa was connected to the rest of the world finding lots of links through trade and other other ways and so- plague came up as one of these possible ways because in the fourteenth century this is late thirteenth hundreds just as the plague is striking London. And all these other medieval European cities. There's also this big change in many sub Saharan African societies. A lot of sites are abandoned, and sort of never returned to some sites are abandoned temporarily some sites. Really shrink fast in size and in some areas. There's like some political changes and other areas, there's environmental changes. But this thing seems to happen in a lot of societies that cross a lot of those boundaries. So archaeologist started saying like what is going on here? Could it be connected to what's going on in Europe? At exactly the same time. What were some of these locations that were abandoned how disparate are we talking here? So most of the archaeology so far in this is a new idea. So it hasn't been it will continue to be explored are in Ghana and an idea there are sites that are abandoned. There's a sighting called a CRA crow. I'm not quite sure fencing that. Right. It's called an earthworks site. This farming settlement surrounded by ejection kind of banks to Mark the settlement's boundaries that one in dozens of other earthworks settlements that have been identified in southern gone at that time they thrive for hundreds of years before being. Suddenly abandoned in the late thirteenth hundreds. There's a site quite well known site in Nigeria called FA that sort of considered to be the historical homeland of the Uruba as Nick group, so like really important for Nigerian history, and there's some evidence there that there was a rapid abandonment in the fourteenth century. And then people eventually came back unlike to Accra, and there's a site in Burkina Foucault called jury Congo that wasn't actually fully abandoned. But after growing for a thousand years in like doing really, well and having like all sorts of interesting things happened to it just shrinks, suddenly and half. It is cut in half in the span of decades, or maybe even years in a lot of police places. You don't see coming? There is no evidence that of invasion or increase conflict. They seem to be doing just fine living the way that they always had incessantly something changes for the much worse. And you mentioned in your story that this pattern in the archaeological record matches. What happened? Are in the stinian plague. Yes, so plague is one of the few diseases that kills enough people fast enough to really leave a marketing archeological record, even something like a bowl today would not spread this fast or kill this many people in the past if something like that had emerged, and the reason that the Justinian Clegg is a particularly good comparison for just I think is because at this point in the British Isles. You also have a real dearth written records. There is some monks saying like might abbot died in the pandemic or whatever epidemic. But like, they're not very specific. Not a lot of people are writing, unlike when the black death had slaves centuries later that's much more well-documented, historically. So, you know, this cinnamon plague in the British Isles, you just have the archaeological evidence to go on. And it does look pretty similar to what's happening in Africa. She mentioned there was no ancient DNA evidence. But there is some modern DNA evidence that the plague did travel to Africa. Yeah. Precisely so there is no ancient DNA. Plagued DNA from sub Saharan Africa and sub Saharan Africa's not a great place for DNA preservation, people really have to look very hard and have a lot of luck. But there is sort of a very evocative hint in a strain of plague that's endemic currently in central and east Africa mostly kind of in the highlands. It will like hang out in rodent populations. And then emerge periodically to kill people. This strain of plague is really really old, and it seems to be based on each in DNA evidence from Europe and actually from Russia it's descended from a strain that was killing people in Russia during the fourteenth century. So that shows that this plague strain eventually made it to Africa. They're they're still not quite sure when this is probably not the strain that was that was killing the people in west Africa that we talked about that we just talked about. But it does seem to enter a lot earlier than many, many historians and other people who think about disease always thought is there any theory about how it would have traveled during that time period where their roots that that have. Been suggested. Sure. Yeah. There are like tonnes of trade routes that connect your Asia and Africa in really the rest of what people call the old world at this time. There is like a release thriving Indian Ocean trade that's bringing goods and people and presumably diseases all between the Middle East. India southeast Asia Africa, east Africa, there's very expensive trends Heron trade routes. These are like things that are quite well known. It's just like nobody had thought that the plague could have travelled this way will what about one other line of evidence that you mentioned a think it's in your story. I know that it was part of the search for visuals to go with this. He's a saints that are showing up in Ethiopia that are associated with the plague in Europe. How did that happen? Does anyone know nobody really knows yet? The to sort of key saints here are called Saint Roque and Saint Sebastian their association of plague is a little bit folkloric, and and piecemeal but lots of European plague victim. James in suffers and people just worried about it or praying to these saints penetrating the fifteenth century, maybe a little earlier, and at some point Ethiopian start praying to them to why the sudden interest at the same time that this black does strain of the rut potentially arriving the saints would also arrive like that that's pretty of oxidative. Besides just looking for that ancient DNA that this is the bacteria were looking for in a skeleton from the exact time that we want. Is there anything else that researchers are going to be looking for to try to tighten up? This very ancient DNA would really be the silver. Will that would clinch this case, it would be undeniable that plague was causing these societal changes in medieval sub Saharan Africa. In the meantime, what archaeologists are trying to do is to see how plague might have affected these societies. So like there's this fourteenth century event. Whether that's playing something else that they don't know yet. Clearly, there's some kind of before and after and what are guests are. Starting to do even in the absence of this conclusive DNA proof that it was plague is starting to explore exactly what the effect was on societies. What did these societies look like after this? What appears to be quite a traumatic event. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Sarah. Lizzie wait as a contributing correspondent for science. You can find a link to her story at science MAG dot org slash podcasts. Stay tuned for Megan. Campbell's interview with Gustavo politiques about evidence for humans hunting and butchering giant ground sloths. This episode is brought to you in part by Kiwi. Co Q we co create super cool hands on projects for kids that makes learning about steam fun with QA co subscription each month the kid in your life. Be it your own kid your neighbor's kid in eastern FU grandkids will receive a fun engaging new project which will help develop their creativity and confidence the projects are designed to spark tinkering and learning in kids of all ages. There are seven different types crates choose from you've got tadpole create for infants koala crate for naturally curious preschoolers all the way up to the Eureka crate. And that's for me you and anyone else over fourteen q coz mission is to empower kids not just to make a project but to make a difference. Everything is created by QA coz team of in house, product designers and rigorously tested by kids, which means they can do it. And they won't break it before. It's done every crate. Includes the supplies needed for that month's project, easy to follow instructions and an educational magazine to learn more about that crates theme Kiko is offering science magazine podcast listeners to chance to try them for free to redeem this offer and learn more visit QA co dot com slash magazine. That's K. I w I c o dot com slash magazine. Towards the end of the Pleistocene. The time span about two point five million years ago to twelve thousand years ago, large animals known as mega-fauna started disappearing by the masses some suspect that the introduction of a new predator humans contributed to this extinction event. But that the pompous region of Argentina might have provided a refuge for these mega mammals. I'm here with Gustavo poli dis jog about new evidence of exactly when these mega-fauna started disappearing in the pump as region. Hey gustavo. Thanks for joining me higher doing Megan. Thanks for calling. Yeah. Of course to start out with could you describe what some of these giant mega-fauna looked like that went extinct during the place to seen. Well, this mega-fauna was very common in the pampas version Tita and during the place to sin. I am talking for example, about a giant Gonesse loss which weighed. About four tons on talking about the clips stones ride. This giant are Manila which weighed about two or three tones. We have also mustard on three or four tones like their contemporary elephants. Actually, it seems South America loss had leased between forty to fifty genera of this spacious and most of them very very big animals at a staggering amount. That's lost. Why do researchers think that humans played a role in this extinction? Will because some of these phone a- lag there jammed on his loss of lip the Daunte suffered tie medic changes alone millions of years, and they were able to survive unto recreate newest specious right in order to allow up to this new environmental conditions during the place a scene and the pleasington, but. At the very end of the place of seen there will other predator humans. Right. It was a new species in in the continent in America. So we do not exactly how the humans impact the these are may Amal's, but we do know that they had some influence that we are trying to do right now is trying to understand to have a better Noli about until extents. Humans collaborate help indexation of this mega mammals besides humans. What other factors could have contributed to the extinction of these mega-fauna the other thing Sam researchers saying that some of the parasites or some disruption in the environment. Brought by humans could also affect the megaphone not just dieted Eirik hunting of the malls. But also signed kennel secondary changes that humans produce. Use him down Mariman your research centered specifically in the pump us region. Why did some people suspect that this might have been a place of refuge for these giant animals? What about the areas so special? Well, some of these people is myself, right. A suspected that before. So I am the first one to be contradicted with a new research. So we thought that because of the pen pass is very extensive grassland with very hyperloop t t kind of powered is for these mega herbivores. It may be the case that this American would act as a refuse for these mega mama's doing the late places in Holocene also considering that the Hampton pressure from the initiatives, people was probably not very high. So we imagine to depaz on a scenario where people and place a seed megaphone. China where coexisting independent bus for several millennium. What did you discover that changing line of reasoning? Well, we reaced a decide co coupla board. They where we found clear evidence of the handing of a giant on his loss. We have to sort of knives associated with bones of these giant kind of slows me to you. We had dated this bones. And we got dates between seven to nine thousand before present by the content of collagen, Dino that they're gonna part of the bone which is data with material was thirty low and the deposited ecological deposit was below and stratagem with very high or gunning contents. So now with Dr Thomas Stafford and and Dr Emily same they develop new on very sophisticated methodology. To pre treat the sub both he newer. They're to separate. What is really collagen from the bone, and what is other systems like humic acid coming from this inorganic sediments about the delay? Which would contaminate the sample saying the previous samples that you took were contaminated than that the radiocarbon dates or his accurate as they could be which was giving you that other range of date. Yes. You got the point. Megan we are saying that because of the low content of collagen that this sample hat due to the genetic process. Very common in the pampas. The premiums are the cabin date probably dated call Tim, plus humid, and fully acid, and it did happen in this side with suspect that the same would happen in the other side quick produce early Holocene dates so now your new dates are saying that these. Mega-fauna did not persist in the Holocene since they didn't make it to twelve thousand years before. Now, exactly we are saying that given the fact that we have these accurate and precise date with suspect about the other early Holocene dates in pampas and it had happened. Then the time of coexistence between humans and megaphone reduce loss reuse to one to two thousand years instead of five to six thousand years ride the time span get shorter. And that case is increasing possibility that humans actually had some impact, right? Some influence in the extensions of these places in Fono. Is there a chance that there any other Pleistocene mega-fauna that could have persisted into the Holocene or do you not see any evidence of that given? This new way of dating I think that it is one on animal the which is called the tattoo see Guinea, which you said become a dealer, but number b but is a bigger than the current contemporary Armadillo and this animal which weighed about fifty sixty or seventy kilos is a chance that this Medina law survive, but in regards to the big animals like jam gonna slows or Lipton's the really big one. Yeah. The real big one to one who weighed more than one tonne way at Buca very we ever suspicious about that possibility. But again, Megan I have to say that we have to rebate all the other sites now ride with this with this new methodology because we are suspecting that the samples were contaminated, but we cannot be completely sure until we perform a serious anew rather cavern dates following the same the dollar. So with this Armadillo was. Not hunted by people is that a reason that it could have persist noise was handed by people, but because of the smaller size, it has more higher tippety rates. So maybe it was handed, but because of the high rebuked red compared with the Liptons, for example, it seemed that it will probably able to survive and also maybe was more flexible to the climatic change the next step with your research is re dating some of these samples that you took from steady sites in the past. Is there also other areas that you want to look into? Yes. I mean, we we are trying to reestablish some of the sites. It seems that the pampas is one of the best places to test this hypothesis because we have an extended grassland with precipitation on a huge variety of displaced us in mega bama's, much more. For example, done in Patagonia where you have very good preservation of bone indicates. Right. But the but -iety of mega mama's at the end of the Plato said was less. But I I tell you Megan I'm very suspicious about older sites in in South America. Right. I think that between before teen fifteen thousand he is before present that is not a solid evidence of human presence in South America. At least thank you so much. You're very welcome. Megan stop a police is a professor of archaeology at the looney that ac- that Nacional del central and university, LA Plata. In widow side is Argentina he could find a link to his research at science MAG dot org slash podcasts. And that concludes this edition of the signs podcast Fiemme comments or suggestions for the show. Right to us at science podcast day, S dot ORG. You can subscribe to the podcast on Stitcher wherever you get your podcast Spotify. Even or you can listen to us on the science site that science MAG dot org slash podcast to publish an ad on the science podcasts contact mineral dot com. This show is produced by myself, Sarah, Crespi and Meghan can't well and edited by Haji Jeffrey, cook, composing music on behalf of science and its publisher triple AS, thanks for joining us.

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FTP120: Live Q&A With Joe Brewer

Future Thinkers Podcast

1:17:13 hr | 10 months ago

FTP120: Live Q&A With Joe Brewer

"Hey this is future thinkers where we talk about how to adapt to a changing World Gilmore zillions upgrade culture and society and create meaning and purpose with your host Mike Land In. You've got a job here for another Acuna. This second one. Only that we've done right third hour Genre Becky Nora Bateson right. So if you guys haven't listened to the Joe Brewer. Podcast that we did. You should go check that out. Maybe someone can find the link for that post in the chat. That'd be great cool. So how do we want to start? This is anyone have questions that they want to start or should you be an I do our thing very kind of casual format. We can just take it as it goes here. Yeah so maybe a little bit of an introduction. If you guys don't know Joe. Brewer has been doing a lot of work with regenerative cultures. And he's been traveling all around the world studying different practices that communities are engaging in to regenerate the air environment They're they're social communities their families. It's a very holistic approach. So we're actually really excited to have him back Ranger viewed him on the podcast little while ago and we wanted to follow up with how his work has been going and we would just did a pre chats before the stream went live and there are some really really interesting stuff that we'd love to talk about so yeah if you guys have questions feel free to pop them in to chat and we'll pick the best ones on the Mansard so yeah We can. We can start if Carol or have a question that they like to start with. You can go otherwise I have a million questions I can start off questions. It okay cool okay. Sure well we can start with them. Let's do an update on on what you've been doing For example the conversation that you just told us about before we started this call that you were having a bunch of other parents about co creating an environment Community environment that promotes healthy education for children End of also creates a community around it and also is good for the environment Something that is really profound and obvious. Wanted stated and that a lot of people don't seem to Sheridan discussions of social change strategies. And the thing is that the outweigh to transform. A culture needs to be something that an entire family can walk. So if you're going to try to change a culture by making it possible someone to have a certain kind of job or to Be Able to live in one place or another place like after I graduated from College. I went to this city for my job or that one. Normally the way that people's lives are structured and scaffolding is run individuals or around the adults but not the kids and so this fragmentation that happens in families between parents and their children. I is a really serious issue. Probably the most dramatic version of says when parents send their kids to daycare so they can go back to work and then often that means that the second parent has to have a fulltime job to pay for the daycare so basically. You're both working fulltime to not have any family connection and this breakdown and family is a huge deal and what we're working on and a really practical way. My wife and I are with a three year old daughter as we're working on how to evolve a life system a way of our entire every aspect of our lives were raising children can be central and livelihoods and what you might call our economic activities. The things that we do that create value for ourselves and others and provide sustenance for us that these things all become integrated with each other and so we have been in Columbia now for about three months and the village of Body Chara Jazz about five thousand people. It's in the mountains in the northern Andes. And it's a place that's been heavily deforested and has really serious challenges water and ecological collapse but also is a place deep and rich cultural knowledge about things like Earth in construction using clay indigenous ways of making baskets and textiles from natural fibres. And other things that are part of historical or ancestral life systems. That are still present in the culture of the place. So what we're doing with these other families is exploring. How could we home school together? Instead of home schooling alone so that our children that are ranging in age from the youngest just under two years old and the oldest is almost seven on their five children in total between these three families. How can we raise our children together? While increasingly bringing our livelihood and our passions as adults into the ways that we do regenerative work and using pedagogical insight to see that the way we do our work informs the education of Our Children. And so that's something we've been doing and it's been really powerful experience so far Learning as we go. Because it's very much a pattern emergence. It's amazing that we've been conditioned to think that raising children is the job of the nuclear family in the West that seems to be prevalent sinking on on the subject. And there's something really wrong with that and I. I really love that. You're exploring this child. Centric Community Family Center community aware. It's everybody's involved in children. Get exposed to different ideas from different adults They can get exposed to different skills. That different people can teach them. It's just it's it's a much healthier approach and also gets relationships with people who care about them and support them not just the parents now like I was reading a really nice impropriety paper today. Studying two hundred other groups in east Africa centers spread across India and Kenya. And what they were looking out was how much learning are really. How much teaching is done from parent to child as contrasted with the amount of teaching that have done child to child at different ages? And what they found by doing minute to minute at Nagasaki. Every minute you make an observation related to that then you're studying that They found about seventy five percent of the teaching was older children. Teaching Younger Charter and only twenty. Five percent of the time was direct instruction from adults to children so this pattern of having an integrated community where there are multiple ages and all the different genders and sexes children together embedded within a community context with adults that the kids are imitating the adults. But they're being taught mostly older kids in so this way of seeing how that is done that that's sort of an ancestral model education That goes back hundreds of thousands of years at least at least at the Homo sapiens and our modern anatomical for him Really that's something about what's wrong. With having kids divided by age sitting in lions and rose in a classroom with adults than giving them information as opposed to actually trying to construct the tools like the adults youths spears to the river to get the fish and the kids are trying to make spheres as they just pick up sticks. It looks purely and the kids that are pretty bad at it. Of course because it's hard and technical but the older kids are better at it so they've had more time to do it so they instruct the younger kids. There shouldn't be surprising at all. All of whom have siblings older brothers and younger brothers younger older sisters and younger sisters or relate to this is something we did in his kids. But it's such a profound remembering how natural that is in this. The the idea of having things integrated is so central here. I think because the way that children are as now they're sitting in a classroom isolated from the world from the real world for example. I remember when I went to school and then I graduated high school and I went out into the real world. I had kind of a culture shock because it is completely different. Things people responded to me differently. You know Things function differently. You just completely unprepared. But the way like you're describing it. It seems that children are integrated into the real world in a very kind of seamless way. They're just there and they're learning on the go also relates to a larger Maybe like a pattern of emergence. That is happening around the world and it's sort of an an untold story. Which is the story of all of the people who You're tuned out and dropped out back in the sixties and seventies back to the land movement. That happened which later evolved into it today as thousands of chemicals projects around the world star thousands and thousands of projects around the world. Now what you see if you go to the places where the temperature retreat center or agro-forestry farm or whatever it is if the people running it had kids that their kids get integrated into this indigenous model of education almost by practical necessity like while. You're home schooling eight kid. Because they're out in the garden with you or you're taking them with you when you're teaching and Living building construction project or whatever. Maybe there's this movement of my like my cereal network of thousands and thousands of regenerative cultural seeds that if they have children present children must be integrated into their life system in this way for practical reasons and that eventually if if it breaks down it's because they don't have enough capacity to really focus on educating the kids and the kids end up going to a public school which you see some eager villages for example on why they don't quite managed to do this What we're seeing is that by focusing on it and gives us a really specific design element. Which is the design element of pacing ourselves with so many things happening at exponential scales around the world but our kids grow at the rate that gets out and so we pace ourselves around the needs of our children. Daughter is now three years old. She needs lots of social. Interactions are were seeking out other families with other kids. That are not exactly the same age range of ages. Overlapping Workers and the pace of her learning and her development is helping us make life decisions. It anchors a lot of what we're doing in ways that we would not how to do otherwise and so. It's not pacing element as it's really you sort of see it when you look backward and notice how much shaped your decisions More than it being conscious most of the time. But for us as we're consciously trying to do it we're finding it to be very powerful design like a generative design perspective because we don't do things that are inappropriate toward child's development. It's pretty obvious it doesn't work. Try it and then we see. Also what is working is flourishing because kids are so dramatically different when they're flourish see their curiosity their inquisitiveness their self confidence and is now lots of things that come when kids are grinding. And so these elements of the indicators. I should say of the pacing of development. Tell us that were either doing it. Right or not. Give immediate feedback moment by moment. Would I find really interesting about this? How practical the experience is for you and for the kids teaching the kids. There's almost this built in kind of rite of passage in that you as a child once. You've learned something or now responsible to pass this onto the people behind you and I I can see how this kind of over compartmentalization of how we've built Western society has contributed to this problem of not. Having people not feeling they have any responsibility. Not going through this turn transition into adulthood or stages of adulthood like I when I think back to my experience of Elementary School in Canada. Like one of the few things that stood out was one time out of my whole experience or that. They paired us up with the older kids to help them to get them to teach us how to learn or had read. Sorry and it was really. It was a really interesting experience to be on both sides of that. And it's one of the few things that stood out to me about that experience because it felt like such a responsibility to give some someone else a good experience similar to what I was given. Yeah there's another piece of this that is What IS HAPPENING FOR US. In Buddy Chara. We came here because there's a family with three children and the family is part of the home schooling and they Have a forest school that they've started a Skrela elbows game and I was just just as Spanish for school for school and What they're doing is offering a part time educational experience. That's three hour sessions. A couple of days a week the built around the normal structuring of the families lives and it's an acute on food for us that's being developed by some elderly women in the community and it's about ten years old nece food for us and what's interesting. Is that when you watch the kids playing in the forest? One thing that you get really comfortable with or you take your get out. Is You get comfortable with kids. Just doing things unstructured. And personally unsupervised is if you have ten kids that are in the forest near each other. They're going to run off in different directions. And you're moments where they've sort of can be brought into showed focus when The person who sits down with the drama and start singing a song and all the kids come into a circle but then they get excited and energized by the music and some of them run. They're all within visible range. You're not really overseeing everything they're doing and you know some kids are climbing rocks and some kids are trying to climb trees and others are like we learned how to take Claire. Oculus you can take rocks and bring them together and they become powder that if you pour water onto the becomes clay and you can mold clay artifacts you can do like homemade ceramics in about five minutes playing in the Madrid Tells interesting ways that we see the kids just playing in a semi unstructured way and then we have activities that give them almost like creative inspiration like showing that they can bring the rocks to make powder and water on it and then they paint and that means my daughter when I take her to the Park Asia's community park when we're walking through. She wants to take out her water bottle from our backpack. Pour it on the ground painting because she knows that the Klay forms a natural paint though the kids are just inspired to be creative by little moments of direct instruction but they really exploit explore it through unstructured exploration and play and And that's why they're teaching each other. That's where the older kids in the younger kids are interacting and the kids do group and two different ages naturally at times and it's not that they're always doing cross age interaction. It's just it. It's very organic. How you mentioned the just be quick with this one. You've you mentioned my Caelian my CEO Network of people in the sixties. Going out there and starting these these communities. I'm wondering if after having been involved in it for a while. Now you've noticed any of the connections between them or or any kind of Meta structure. Coming up yeah. The Metal Structure I've noticed is isolation fragmentation and slow declined to decay. Just basically most of these projects have very difficult time being self sustaining and so a lot of them have sort of run themselves out. In the more intentional community oriented ones. Most of them had failed because of what we talked about. Before that the lack of internal social for capacity to be genuinely common caused for a Intentional cumulative right Ghana's rampant cheating among the founding families so and so's sleeping with someone else's partner eventually you know that sort of stuff that happens when you're dealing with real humans to mature enough and capable enough to be responsible and communicate handle the complex and Sarah. I'm a lot of the more intentional community eco-village types of things. A lot of them have failed. But the other really like large scale pattern. I would describe as it. There has been a war of attrition. That's been run by the globalized system to keep these things from spreading. So most people disengage to a large extent from the larger economic system and then to try to survive as long as they can and if they come upon a business model that works that business model comes to an organizing principle and limits what they can do so maybe they become a teaching facility that offers permaculture design courses which means all they're doing is cycling people through beginners projects. But they're not doing larger scale. Integrative work and so the pattern level that I see I would describe in evolutionary terms as some symbiosis a little bit of synergy but not enough and the inadequate conditions for an evolutionary transition evolutionary transition. Specifically when you achieve the integration of functions so that the interdependence becomes life preserving what that means is to stop interacting means today the might Andrea and your cell cannot live as free form bacteria in the longer. It was functionally interdependent. What the EUKARYOTIC cell evolutionary transitions have. Dysfunctional interdependence occurs and if you look around at permaculture projects you'll see they're all isolated projects and they very rarely achieve symbiosis and another. I'd say none but mostly very very few examples exist that achieve interdependence of listener transition. That's needed have you seen any of them Recognize the need for this interdependence and inter connectivity and is anybody who actually working to mitigate this yes some of them see it some of them. would be aware of it but they would say it's not their Their problem to work on the reason is they're too busy dealing with everything else and they know that what they're doing is valuable so they really sticking to their mission which is good them to do. I what I've often seen when people are trying to do the largest cowart as that. It's unfunded unrecognised unappreciated. These are the network reverse people who we've ecosystems of human relationships. They usually do this work for years without anyone really understanding what they're doing and the places where I fear work comes because of some Higher level institutional support like There's a development fiasco where a dam breaks down in Brazil and the United Nations comes in for the set of programs to bring in ten million dollars in funding to do development project. And you happen to have a team of people that are good at facilitating multistakeholder networks. So there are situations like this emerge but they don't arise from the genitive projects themselves. The ones that have been successful so far have an infusion of outside support they still work in a bottom up fashion but that outside support is essential and I would think of this as like a out of birth canal is important for supporting the birth of a baby. The baby is doing all of its dumping to develop and make its way out but without that thing that's external to the baby has an organism that external support which is the mother's body without that kind of support to guide it through the fragile development process. They usually don't work and so you can see large scale. You know restoration. Projects Conservation Management Projects. Probably the best examples that do work are things like sustainable fisheries or they overfished fishery collapsed but then they formed a multi colored collaboration and found a way to manage it in a collective manner. But it's a multi year process and they have people who become a sort of like professional facility intellect institutional actors that maintain the support of quality facilitation and a lot of these regenerative projects. Don't have that which is why I call it. A war of attrition because whereas all the money and support to do that while look at the tax havens like the fourteen hundred billionaires look at how six families have half the world's private wealth and etc etc. You'll see why these products are not able to the resources they need. All those resources have been stolen by the cancer logic of a different economic system So this is where the composting dimension comes in on that dominant system begins really soft terminate and breakdown. It's going to release a lot of resources but that releasing process is going to be devastating and traumatic for a lot of people But I feel like we're probably too late to avoid that by several decades. Now so that's just part of the preparation processes is helping people to be stabilisers in transitions. That are going to be very unpleasant. To enable these projects to scale to steal away of higher level functional integration. It's somebody in. The child says that they feel that in less developed countries. This really seems closer. Do you think that's the case? That's my experience. Yes I've seen the two places where this kind of regenerative development where it really has worked. Well I'll give three examples. Actually one is the indigenous communities that have managed to remain mostly intact like the Kogi people of the Santa. Marta mountains in the northern Andes is an example they've mostly Merriman remain isolated enough and they remained relatively intact indigenous culture so in places that are almost entirely separated from the development as usual model. Like this they sort of never stopped being like this. The other place would be like Detroit places where they've experienced economic collapse and the aftermath of economic collapse. There's a renaissance that occurs and unleashing. That comes through. The Daphne Decay which is actually a process of ecological succession about ecosystems go through stages of development cycle the nutrients of the previous life. The second and the third is these places that we call using. My fingers. Underdeveloped is of course you know have a lot of problems with the framing of development and economics But these underdeveloped. The so-called underdeveloped places are actually places that are less entrenched in destructive systems and people have more of a subsistence way of life and one of my meditations and the last two years has been to recognize that subsistence is not a negative word. Actually a description of sustainable cultures so as as people this subsistence farming what we mean as they have a sustainable livelihood by what in the mainstream economic discourses therein subsistence. We need to save them because their livestock. They're not developed enough and so this. This is an issue of developmental entrenchment because the structures that get developed constrained choices and cycle and direct the flows of things so and a lot of places that are in this case over it developed in the wrong way. It's very difficult to cultivate capacities. And so we have to regenerate some those entrenched structures which is harder so I think that question is spot on at and having that insight and probably some knowledge about these kinds. I have a question. You took the ballots Ridge. Narrative culture also raising kids together and is it. Is this everything it doesn't Dale or is this something more. There's much bigger conversation that we can have about. What regenerative cultures are and. I'll give one way to expand it and then we can see where we go from there. One took stand. It is to recognize that regeneration is the self process of any living system so when we talk about the word with a concept of regeneration talking about a living entities ability to reproduce its conditions of being alive very concrete example. As how every thirty days all the cells in your skin die and are replaced by other cells that are forming continual regionalization as a dynamic process and technical term for that has auto polices only think of what is regenerative and then ask what about. Human cultures are regenerative. Well we can see his life. Destroying cultures have regenerative aspects to them and this is just a a nuance Doesn't normally at talked about in regenerative design but if you look at the boom bust cycle of the virus viral outbreak now this exponential growth of a virus or an epidemic of some kind of disease and is able to enter into an environment single celled organism interesting environment or there's an abundance of resources grows very quickly then it goes through an overshoot and collapse pattern. There's a lot of generation in the pattern meaning. It is a living system functioning regenerative the entire time. But it's also a south terminating pattern because it's inherently unstable and I only say that because as we go into discussing how to create regenerative human cultures one of our challenges is to refrain from having ethical judgments about cultures as good or bad and instead try to see from Living Systems Lens. What is regenerative? And what is not regenerative in a specific culture because then we can start to see places of of growing the regenerative aspects to become more encompassing within that culture and I think raising children as an example of this. Where if we try to raise children in a more regenerative wave and we go to a moral systems perspective and integrative point of view but another way of looking at this would be What people do with a life cycle analysis of products or they look at one raw material imports for creating product When the product is created. What's the role of packaging and transport and all the aspects of getting it to its marketplace? Earn eventually it's used in eventually breaks down in his recycled or thrown away and put in a landfill and life cycle of the product. Another way to get into regenerative culture is to see which aspects of those engineering or industrial activities are working with the system that they come from and which ones aren't and this isn't about raising children but it's just another land and and we could go on to other places than and culture and human systems to see where regenerative aspects can be brought more to life. What I find powerful about raising children. Is that our planetary skill? Challenges are so large that they unfold on larger timescales than a human generation so this intergenerational component is more important Dan it is in something like product design product design at the life cycle of the product matters and looking at generations of development use and recycling or reuse on those products but in human systems. Now this is captured by that same from Confucius that If you're thinking in terms of a year plant rice if you think terms a decade plant a tree in terms of century raise a child Now this is just a way of thinking in the child-raising has a larger scale OCCAS I don't know if that get your question well enough because I sort of wanted to lay groundwork around conversation but we can dive back into something specific. That's helpful. You just make wish just curious if that answer your question or was because I was trying to be more like laying context and I don't answer the question adequately you if they ended domain but still. I don't necessarily see a difference between a originally culture from Brazil down from lion coacher from Berlin and whether my coach razor genetic or not Okay see one thing. That's really a powerful frame like a mental frame for making sense of regenerative cultures when our goal is sustainability so like dislike. The skin cells in your body reproduce themselves every thirty days. You have sustainability as long as your body is alive. So sustainability is a byproduct of processes of regeneration return of cultures have a byproduct of being sustainable so for example culture. That cares about an environment is sustainable. Because it doesn't destroyed so yeah it it keeps the cycles of regenerate regenerative tippety going sort of inputs are needed to be alive are are not depleted and they continually become available again. One one way to think about this that I think is pretty powerful is to look at cross cultural. I am policy. Research and see which societies have become stable for long periods of time and which societies become unstable and then lead to collapse and what we found is every empire civilization and history has a pattern of instability and a pattern overshoot and collapse but also all empires and civilizations have occurred starring. What geologists called the Holocene a ten thousand year period of warm stable climate after the last Ice Age? And when we look at all the stable cultures what becomes really powerful. Is the regulating mechanism of religion? And Andrew. Goldsmith is the person who I think is. Most powerfully sympathize. This perspective with Cross Cultural Anthropology White Keila got was and different kinds of indigenous cultures which ones become stable over time. And what are their cultural traits of those societies that enable them to become stable over time and what he found was summarized by another person. Michael Dowd as pros Pro Future social norms social norms. That actually care about an act on the future in a normative way and whenever Goldsmith talked about this he thought through two key aspects. One is personifying ecological relationships so the river is not an object. The river is a person the tree is not object. The tree is a person the rock is not an object. The Rock is a person so personifying ecological relationships to gather with feeding those relationships as sacred so that children would be raised in a kind of spiritual ethic of caring about the river because the river is a person carrying about the treaty because the treaty is a person and there would be stories and rituals and ceremonies and various kinds of social norm reinforcement that their religion would do for them through mythic narratives and personified relationships. What's interesting about this is that do you look at the writing of more? Contemporary thinkers like Wendell Berry. Why is he describes that one of the biggest problems that we have in the modern world is kind of in Byron Mental Autism? We've lost the ability to enter into a relationship of I vow with the rest of the natural world and when we lose that ability we'll lose the feedbacks the social and ecological feedbacks within our cultures to be able to manage relationships for the future. So I think if this is a really powerful way to design for regenerative culture you could look at it through a purely scientific lens and say what are the functions of the ecosystems. We dependent upon survival. How do we need to manage them? And then go back and ask how humans manage these things while through stories through morality tales through raising children. Throw moment to moment normative behaviors. And so there's this powerful way of merging the science and religion aspects around this for the design of regenerate cultures and. It's sort of a diagnostic tool as well. If we steer a culture that does not treat ecological relationships in a responsible way and instead of being pro future it's inherently anti future means up in the long run it's going to undermine ecological efficacy and eventually collapse. So that's one way of looking at cultures and their regenerative aspects that I think is really deep and profound and has lots of applications and implications for how we do nor keeps everyone just a reminder that for five bucks a month you'll get access to all of our full podcast episodes unreleased material from past episodes and occasional extra content from our courses including guided meditations lessons. And more plus. You'll be helping us. Keep the lights on. The brand new future thinkers members for Dole is now live develop your sovereignty and self knowledge with our in depth courses get access to our weekly since making calls joined the QNA's with pass podcast guests and much more. Become a future thinkers member today at future thinkers that org slash members way to apply this regenerate to culture principles like two big cities to meet seems like big cities are doomed if you look this stream of development that this current right now but is there a way. Like I mean aren't necessarily big cities like mega policy in Asia. In countries argue necessarily on wooden are necessarily doomed. But I've come to a conclusion grudgingly because I didn't like the conclusion But I've come to the conclusion that I there's sort of a philosophical point. We have no reason web. No evidently bait says to believe that cities will exist in the future because the only evidence we have of them in the past was during the Holocene and the Holocene is now and so we don't actually know if they can exist in the future F which is a really disturbing philosophical insight and aren't Philisophical. Then really it's sort of scientific but it's if an inductive inference so it's not necessarily valid. It's more like a concern to be aware of that. We need to practice discernment around the other thing that I've seen that's more thermodynamic and so I think it's got stronger implications about the future. Cities is that there is a pattern of entropy. The second law thermodynamics. The you can see in cities in two ways one way you see it as through. The work of people like Jeffrey West with with what he calls. Ala Metrics scaling. You can see that cities actually become more. Resilient and robust internal cultural systems the larger their populations become in the more densely become they actually increase their learning collective learning capacities as the populations grow. That seems to imply that cities are actually resilient except for the other thermodynamic element which is that cities do this by degrading increasingly large surface areas of landscapes in their surrounding environments and that larger pattern is the pattern of eventual collapse civilizations and so When I draw from this looking at the work of people like Joseph Painter is an archaeologist studies civilization collapse. I've come to the conclusion that cities are unlikely to exist in the future or if they exist it'll be a lot fewer of them and they will be structured differently than they are now. Although the something's will be the same they'd still be near large rivers and other aspects that cities depend upon by the future of cities. Shamir's I think there's a lot of accidental Hobart's where people project normalcy onto cities when they don't realize how abnormally this period of history has and so if we're really going to be discerning as critical thinkers we have to go down that rabbit hole even though it's disturbing to go down and then from there do the best design work that we can and so. I'm hedging and all of this because I don't pretend to know the answer but I have like a fairly strong analysis. That's compelling for me that cities are unlikely to exist in the future or unlikely to exist. There's And that so we see. I'm holding it without uncertainty purpose because I actually don't know but that's where I sat with my perspective. You're saying that cities will not probably in the future but you assume that for example there will not be overpopulation that V. Land Mass of the wont decrease because of the increase of water and were still humanity can die by many results and it's very hard for me to believe in any particular version of the future yet. The book that I found most powerful for clarify eyeing my standing of these issues is a book by William Caton Junior. As called overshoot North published in nineteen seventy seven and. He was a human ecologist. Who taught in a sociology department at the time? And what he did that was different. From what most people do. Who studied these large patterns? Is He introduced? Key ecological concepts and then fully applied than humans a remote exceptionalism of humans presumed exceptionalism. And just curious like any other organisms in an ecosystem. When he did this he combined some really powerful concepts that were not his concepts but he employed them in a very powerful way. One of them is the concept. Ghost acreage ghost. Acreage is if you take a geographically bounded area. I got to take that the lower forty eight United States where you take the euro zone of Europe or any other geographically bounded area and you look at how many people live there and ask. Where do they get their food? And then you measure. How many acres of land do they grow? Food on within that geographic area and ghost acreage is all of the land area. Outside of that area that depend upon triggering a an equivalent of this with a sort of ghost acres acreage for marine ecosystem for fishing. And so there are some interesting nuance doesn't like city. But what's powerful about using concepts like this? Is that our geographic boundaries that have become metaphysically primary like the United States is an ontological entity. I'm near the sort of thinking that has happened with nation states You can go under that and look at the whole systems with this ecological ends and what he found was that there were two ways that human population was already overshot. We exceeded our planetary carrying capacity. And it happened before any of us were more and one question. You don't have to answer as if it's a carrying capacity. How is it possible to go beyond it? So he needed to introduce the concept of temporary carrying capacity and he did this by showing that there were two major frontiers that enabled this overshoot to happen. Where a mythology of progress could be maintained and his name for this mythology. Was the age of exuberance. The age of exuberance captured by things like the philosophy of manifest destiny and the idea of infinite. Gdp growth and things that we see today among economists and the age of exuberance is important because it's connected to one of the frontiers so one of the frontiers that he named was that there was a specific period of increasing population density in Europe where they were starting to experience some overshoot patterns but by several accidents of history. They discovered a mostly empty set of continents the Americas because instead of plagues diseases killed off most of the people on them due to European contact. And so when a lot of. Europeans arrived in the Americas. It was like finding another hemisphere of empty earth. That was the ghost h acres that they could develop apart and because of the period of expansion that grew from this over about hundred fifty years people could believe that nature was infinitely abundant naked. Believe that human ingenuity could solve all problems and it created a He actually coined the phrase Carter calls in in his book. Overshoot and cargo culture people who are techno optimists who are born within this period of the age of exuberance and believe that human ingenuity consult all problems so that was one element was the human population could grow with cultural mythology of progress. There was able to Be Blind to ecological consequences for that creative expansion then the second frontier that allow temporary overshirt was discovery and use of fossil fuels as Basically to capture photosynthesis over a span of two hundred million years that we will have depleted within about three hundred years so six orders of magnitude difference a million times faster than it was generated as how quickly where Julia and. So what happened with fossil fuels? Was this age of exuberance which you create a cultural mythology of infinite. Progress was able to continue fueling itself overshooting the population even further even faster. And so. Now we're in a position that we've already overshot human topic population. It happened before any of us on this call were born. And it's we can all be blind to it because of these large-scale stomach conerns Rapa unlearn some things to be able to see it. So then what gets really interesting as to ask what happens after the overshoots corrects itself. Meaning that the human population goes down and in his book he had a graph with four images that were different concepts for carrying capacity where the first three were false in the fourth. One is correct. Each one was adding another nuanced. Here's the first one but it's wrong but add another piece. There's a second one. It's better but it's also wrong because Abbas third piece. Here's the third one which is also wrong. Because we didn't have the fourth piece when you get to the image and what you have is. There's a temporary carrying capacity. And there's a real carrying capacity and they're different and the temporary carrying capacity is influenced by the Social Organization of the human culture its technological capabilities and the condition of the environment. That it happens to be at the time and those are interacting dynamics allowing default experience a carrying capacity to be dynamic anyone who believes there's a static can capacities misunderstanding the same component. But another piece as you can have a temporary karen capacity that dramatically exceeds the real carrying capacity as the population grows you degrade the environment which reduces the temporary current capacity. But you're still over the real one which means that your ability to adapt to the lower one as you're about to return to it you actually lose some of that ability during that period of time and then it happens is the collapse actually goes below the real carrying capacity which is whatever the renewable ecological what some people call ecosystem services today the actual renewable patterns of the biosphere that could hold the population. Which of course is dependent on Social Organization and technology? So it's still not a static number but at least stem what within some realistic range are those of three parts that you actually can drop the population below that level and that's where extinction events occur is if you go too low you create an extinction event but if you don't really extinction event than you either read yourself for the Hubris of false progress and return to real sustainability or you start another cycle which will only further degrade the environment until eventually the human system and basically they go extinct. I and so. There's this really complex dynamics that are involved and most people don't even mind carrying capacity in a static sense let alone refine ham accents and this is why I think William Captains Burke is so important as he explains it very clearly at look at his examples from late. Nineteen seventies very appreciated. You can be him describing a lot of the things that are visibly avenue. Today this were not on the radar of people back. And so. That's a bit of a long a longer digression into that topic. But I think it's one that for us to do design for genitive culture as we need to be thinking about what kind of pattern are actually and learn a pattern where we exceeded overshoot a long time ago and planetary collapse of the biosphere has already been occurring. Cops you poppulation has not yet happened and a lot of people complete those as the same thing so I say well there. There may not be a claw up when it actually already has been in the biosphere And then they may think well there won't be a there may still be a human ingenuity to the cargo cold idea that humans can avoid ecological reality and somewhere in between the correcting of those assumptions. Where you find a real path forward but it's sobering one in its There's still a lot of hope to be found within it but it comes from places that aren't abuse before you had a question earlier. Yeah I'm sorry I can't take a moment after that yeah I guess. The role of storytelling On in all of this which is my area of you know where my gift and I feel like I can talk to myself. Storytellers and I've been trying to activate them to engage in this general re generation of stories that At least show US better. Outcomes are showing different ways of life would be like. Oh you you're you're living A version of this but I just want to get the brain trust year like how I just. Don't see enough of this. In the culture I feel like media such a powerful way right now at least to get this across oppressors conversations. Like this when happening on time. Now but it's not reaching this elevated storytelling level which so many people subscribed to as we know now globally And Yeah I just WanNa see more stories that can activate these better outcomes for us. I know I can inspire my people as storytellers to do so. I'm curious to hear from Joe and everyone how How else we can do this. You know this this brings up something for me a question I was wondering asking you kind of perfectly segue into it. You know one story that I'm seeing a lot of right now is The story about basic income in conversation about that rising due to the popularity surge of Andrew Yang in the presidential election in the states You know related to nerves question earlier about cities I've been thinking about what a basic income would look like if implemented and I've been thinking about what are the driving forces that bring people to concentrate in urban environments and to me a lot of it seems to be economically based I can't really think of many other reasons so I've been trying to extrapolate. What is life like after basic income and that seems to be one thing? The instantly has dispersion effect from basic income. Is that way if I get a thousand dollars a month but it costs two thousand and three thousand dollars a month to live in say Vancouver do I do? I put that money to war. What do I add it to my job and stay in Vancouver or do I go somewhere rural and live off of that money happily with my family and create a network out there so I see this kind of an already i. I noticed because what we talked about in future thinkers people are constantly talking about starting their own permaculture community. That kind of thing. So I'm you know I'm I just WanNa say to Ari like that. That's one story or narrative. I see that so much implied underneath a bit. That people aren't really talking about. She seems like yeah. It'd be nice to have a thousand bucks pocket so to extend that question. Joe Would you think what? What are your ideas about implication or implications about basic income basic income? And then come back to our as question at a larger level because it's really important one of the problems with basic income and we talked about us. When I was working at the rules several years ago Jason Nicolle was actually the person who I was really beautifully. Clarifying it is that. Basic income has a disastrous framing. Anna liberating framing. And they don't get clarified enough. There is a way that there's sort of a The he the Stunted ethical development of an ion rand type of libertarian that basically enable those basic income to enslave people with an extractive system Not because of basic income itself but because of the narratives that we laid out whereas as you're describing on basic income when understood in different human development like a properly holistic perspective of what it means to be human can be powerful liberating can freely people to make different kinds of choices about their lights and so I see. Basic income is something that is really powerful for redistributing or recirculating the wealth. That's been created from extraction from the environment in ways that can empower more people to become regenerative like going into income Example and so in that sense if there's a narrative of people changing their lives in this way and basic income becomes a re circulatory pattern amplify whereas if people to see themselves as cogs in that kind of consumer market machine living in cities than it's all it's GonNa do is have a raising of cost of living re equalize standardize the cost of higher level as people can extract more well send on everything from the extract mindset of the dominant paradigm and so this relates to always question and a really important way. Which has I'm what I found about. Storytelling I was doing. Framing work on global warming and then also framing work on other topics. Was that one of our challenges that we have right now is that we don't have the ability to create stories or what hasn't happened yet. And there's this profound experiential gap between the body's ability to understand and the stories from the past not adapted or evolved for the context in a really powerful kind of culture hacking for story tops. Which is sort of paradoxical because it seems like that would imply that we can't do storytelling. It's actually not trail while we can do instead is live out story. Creating story creating is storytelling. And so there's this really interesting way of seeing through all the storytellers to do something very powerful and the powerful thing which relates to the conversation we had during the previous future thinkers conversation about stages of psychosocial development for humans and how humans up higher functional levels of Psychosocial Development which is that the intervention points where storytelling is. Transformative is the places in a person's life whether story is breaking down and when their story is breaking down it doesn't make sense to them anymore. That's when they crossed the gap with nihilism. Do these other things we've talked about this place of uncertainty experimentation exploration lack of structure confusion In those places is where the storytelling most out on but it's a different kind of storytelling than having the story ahead of time Mike. It's more like how do we create the story? Propagation tools to help people live stories together. I liked that so much of so much known about how to do that. Yeah it seems like we're I mean the culture is really good at creating the stolen futures. You know there's every example at the base level of every Shittier version of the world So we're gotten good at that you know what we used to be. Cautionary Tales are now just every day it will follow into this And we don't have enough of the opposite which wouldn't be Utopia I've been calling it pro. Topiary storytelling from Kevin Kelly's idea slightly better worlds for solving some of our problems and maybe not creating new ones along the way which is very well with the with the work that you're doing so I'm just wondering why you're you're explaining piece of the puzzle to me why we I guess. We can't imagine where we have such a hard time imagining better better of versions of the future and such an easy time imagine him worse and therefore we have six hundred thousand is no byan domes and TV shows. And I can find two or three examples in the last decade of maybe this kind of proto storytelling like Wauconda Black Panther arrival. Or you know things like that on at the highest level talking about the kind of blockbuster and a global level because I feel like that's one way to get a lot of people onto something there I've been to a bunch of discussions in in Different conferences in Europe. And I've noticed there's a really large interest in people wanting to make more utopian kind of Scifi Net Flix TV series. And there's I've been part of a quite a number of brainstorms about this subject and what I find. Most interesting is is how little people are thinking about. Why the opium thing cells and why the Utopian version doesn't because of this the Natural Hero's journey story arc where we need drama to be to maintain engagement in the story and when People WanNa talk about the future or make a story about the future. They tend to make the future the story. It's like how we went through so some sort of technological change or singularity or whatever so they ended up painting themselves into a corner of needing to make the dystopia about what goes wrong and not society. But there's other examples that I've really liked the movie. Her which we did a review about several years ago is amazing because it makes the technology and the Utopia an inconsequential backdrop to the the real story which just human drama except. It's a human drama between the main character and in artificial intelligence but but all of the tech is way in the background in in mundane and I thought that was a brilliant way to tell tell it Utopian story. There's no external conflict. There's only the drama in story. Another thing that I was thinking about is what happens. Because of the psychological phenomenon of habituation at once you get a certain level of stimulus you have to have a proportionately greater amount of stimulus to have the same effect again and habituation as why and behaviors actually extinction of the stimulus. There's a stimulus that creates a response. But if you do the same stimulus than the organism re habituate S- to the new level of stimulation and then is much more difficult to stimulate. One of the more pernicious and chronic versions of this is Is the chronic use of an inaugural by men in the ability to have deepened emotionally significant romantic and physical relationships with women where you can see how processes played out on a large scale. But it doesn't get talked about very much. Another version of this is the visual and auditory stimulation of moving pictures of kids watching cartoons. And then kids watching action. And you look at the how much we've Accelerated the rate of changing perspectives. Used to be. You'd have the same camera view like thirty seconds. And now within five seconds of change thirty times in ways that people's attention it's sort of manipulated by habituation and I've seen as most powerfully when I have kids who spend a little time in nature versus kids who spend a lot of time in the kitchen. You spend a little time in nature. A little edgy. A little bothered a little unsure what to do and they are seeking higher levels of stimulation that they're accustomed to and their high simulation media environments whereas kids who didn't experience very much of it or have gone through a sort of deprogramming of habituation. They've been away from along sort of do a cultural detox to rediscover this capacity to be stimulated to be stimulated by changing colors throughout the day stimulated by the feeling of wind on their skin to be stimulated by the thought of birds in the trees and these other things that again sort of indicates the problems with cities and other problem cities in cities the ability to cultivate. Eko Literacy the ability to be able to read and relate to the natural world they have more than human world is heavily stunted by the lack of direct access to ecosystems. And so there's there's this piece of it that I think is really interesting. About what kinds of transitional supports can help people to re immerse themselves in nature and one of the challenges is that most ecosystems on earth are no longer intact. I we spent nine months in a tropical rainforest in Costa Rica and our daughter would wake up in the morning naming the bird that she heard in the traits. She was two years old now in a nearly extinct tropical dry forest and a pretty barren landscape in the northern Andes and our daughter wakes up to the sound of dogs barking and motorcycles. Going by and even though aren't small quiet town mountains. She doesn't hear the birds. She's not waking up to the avid flyer. The insects that were in that intact ecosystem. Enjoy see this as a huge Kind of relational and sensory deficit that. Now that's what Wendell Berry call that sort of illogical autism that is a factor in all of this that we couldn't break through stories if you've watched all of the other Superhero series of like X. Men or in the house like those things are so stimulating. Visually auditory emotionally. That the whole world seems black and white and Doaa in comparison in so this is one of our challenges that storytelling doesn't caught it but starting doing dots But it only does with curly specialized sets of criteria being met which are hard to reach and mostly people. Walk each privileged. Actually have the money and capacity like I have a US passport. So I could travel to someplace. I you know. I have a lot of privilege to enable me to do this are these interesting Challenges `bout storytelling related to that. Because you see it if not only about the story. I know that storytellers. Don't reduce it to that. There's this whole like structural scope of changing our life systems. And that's the story. Is those experience and in many ways. But it's going to step away from movies and mainstream media and have a different kind of qualitative fact in quantitative fast and it's thought is fine when I see the power of media. But it's it's there to to grapple has part of Daniel Schmuck turn Burger also. Peter Lindbergh is article on the mean tribes talks about super-normal Stimuli. Which is the name for these kinds of super stimulating experiences? That hijacker evolutionary pathways but they are not satisfying or not meaningful in deep level or their this disconnected from what we actually need. So you know Sugar Porn Video Games. Things like that And Yeah I think it's you bring up a really important point that storytelling that that the Meta of storytelling is really important to how is a told. In what context how is it connected to everything else because if the story is like a candidate you know it's a really powerful? Putin story but a dozen reconnect us to our deeper nature in a dozen fulfill us in some fundamental way. Then well it's it's empty At best it's kind of a whole borough reminder but yeah without this experiential aspect. It's I'm very aware that it's a very small piece of the puzzle but I still feel like it's a very powerful hook on right and can remind people and shake them out of them will will will slumber one nice example of a specific example of general phenomenon. That I'll talk about in a moment has I'm a movie like the biggest little farm where there was just was just about the bring that out. Yeah let's let's make now like one of the ways that stories can be. A Hook is to create an early scaffolding. Stop for people to radicalize their lives where they see something. The now feels doable and feels better. Start TO MAKE CHANGES. And then what's needless? The next scaffolding supports after that. This is something I've been thinking about a lot with by a regional learning centers if idea that we need to relocate is economies and this is not new idea of course but with powerful now is we are on the verge of a special kind of disruption. Just we're about to have a hundred million or more or climate refugees in the next fifteen or twenty years and as we get an increasing number of people whose lives are disrupted by forced displacement. They cannot stay where they were before that if there can be localized supports for people to transform their lives livelihoods to bring them into these regenerative cultures then that becomes a place where these storytelling tools. Show people how they can enter but then the the infrastructure still I think it's being built like ecosystem restoration camps transition towns and global eco-village network and others are building some of the scaffolding for it. But there's more scaffolding needed. It's not Gary At. I'm so what happens with a lot of people as they get to these crisis points of meaning and they know that they need to make a change but then they don't know how to change and what they actually need is an apprenticeship a special kind of apprenticeship. I'm experiencing this because of the way that I've been giving the workshop on Planetary Collapse at people come to me for Mentor. Ship in an interesting way to small number of people. But it's very powerful like when we announced that we were moving to Columbia that four months ago. They've been here for three months so just before. We came announced on facebook that we are coming to combat sky in London since announcing says my partner and I are thinking of leading London. Could we come and help you with the project and I said we haven't even arrived yet? You have no idea what's going to emerge I wish I could say there was something to join the or isn't Stay tuned well flash forward to about three weeks ago and I got a facebook message from this guy and he says I hope it's okay but we decided to come to Columbia and come to body. Char and we found this volunteer opportunity on a little like camping. Agro-forestry projects just outside the town. And I don't want to interrupt that could we? Maybe rapper coffee person. Who WAS THIS COUPLE? Really? But it was the guy in the couple of who is ready to make the move in. His girlfriend was sort of ready to go along for. The ride was just their specific situation. Needs to people what he was really looking for was the validation of being around someone that made him feel like he wasn't crazy his I. I've been doing sustainability worked for twelve years in law under and I feel like everyone around me is insane or I am and I'm pretty convinced I'm not but I just need to be around someone they get this and you see how that is a storytelling scaffold right there and that apprenticeship and mentorship is going to be huge to become authentic role models available to be mentors for others even as like. I'm not perfect person. I haven't figured how my life is still a mess in a lot of ways but I can still mentor Businessperson. Because I've been doing this for a few years just like we were talking about the very beginning about older kids helping younger kids here. We are as just tall kids doing it and I think the storytelling aspect of this is very powerful. Because you start to think of. How do we like say? The humans of New York Facebook as I can remember that out of these ways of of creating archetypal stories of real human beings that can become mentors others then author have pathways to mentor. Ship may not exist right away but gradually Ken and I think that's gobbling. Process becomes becomes an emergent co creation among those people's Richmond's it doesn't need to be rigid and centralized and all the things that we might critique about infrastructure but structural supports are mostly semantic. How would I even know how to ask someone else? Who would I look to you as a role model and how do I know that their role model I if they are? If I'm Amaral model how do I know that? I'm a role models because I may not have that social feedback so this is a place where storytelling can be really powerful a so much storytelling to do for this and it's transformational change of people's lives narratives. They live a different story. Transformational change on the storytelling is supports for that process. That resonates with you. Ari offer dozen but Absolutely yes that's great. Thank you for your. Guiding it there yeah a intergenerational friendships are also something that comes to my mind is like another model that will probably be merging more and more in the future. I don't know if like the general a global population. I read somewhere. That at some point you just going to start declining like oh for for many reasons. And in that sense I feel that like this intergenerational communication just That that's going to be like one. Integrative force that can actually push forward that can actually be like this for he's an enslaving can actually save us. In a way I think about that Discussion we had earlier today. About self stabilizing societies. And we talk. I was talking more about social norms when we started that part of the conversation but another form of stabilizing is intergenerational role modeling of Ethics and Mentor Just sort of the modern example of a high schooler who gets the vice from High School Chandler? These sorts of relationships. One thing. You'll notice when you go to. The countryside is that people above the age of fifty or maybe about the age of sixty or the people who still have endogenous knowledge indigenous necessarily by endogenous meaning. They have knowledge of how to live in this place and there might be the ones who are which leaf you take from the plant to make the pace speak when you have a fever. Because their mother did it for them and they were educated and everyone in the world. You'll find this kind of traditional knowledge. But there's a huge gap between people who entered the globalized economy and then the young people who are returning to seek it. Not all of them trickle by truck orders more and more and they need to go to these elders to learn and so in any given community there might only be one or two maybe five people might be a very small number of these older people. But these are who have the knowledge and the disposition. They're the kind of people that interact with. Young people on the young people really do resonate. This relationship is extremely important right now because we have this sort of cultural heirloom seed. Think what Heirloom Sita's and how you protect seeds. Put them in a seed bank when a cultural heirloom seeds. Where the cultural knowledge that is about to be lost and in some places has been the way to maintain. It is by creating a bridge for those old people and young people to the specific way that this is happening in the USC. Rela Boesky here. Naughty CIA is there's an old Campesino man I just noticed Ms Tornay. He's about seventy years old. He grew up in the countryside. Here and he's been farming and doing agroforestry before it was called that just as a person living here out on the landscape and He's become friends with family. That started this for school for kids so yesterday that we went to work on our compost pile gathered leaves from around the town and made a compounds pilot. I starting this soil generation process food for his project and older man as they're just offering to help and I watched him as he walked over to abolish pulled off a leaf from it and explain to the four year old kids how they could use it when they got sick because his mom use it on him when he got sick music. And you could just see this beautiful exchange happening effortlessly by this. Old Man basically finding joined being around kids so these relationships are prevalent around us. And they're not celebrating around us. They're fundamental to continuity of culture into the future so this was just a topic I think is really important is that you probably would. Najah everything you said makes sense. I've heard this before because it really is a thing that we know is important. But in the specific time in history during Exponential Cultural Change. Discontinuity needs to be treated with reverence. It is absolutely essential to our future. And we're very quickly losing it so we don't actively protect it. It will go if you like this content. You Might WanNa check out our seven ways to adapt to the future guidebook. Get it for free at future thinkers dot org slash sign up. You might also want to check out. Our Future thinkers membership area. We have courses there to help you. Adapt to the changing world build resilience upgrade culture and society and create meaning and purpose in your life as well you'll get access to our community all of our unreleased content private zoom calls live. Cunard's with guests workshops and events and more just go to members future thinkers dot org every month. We run a contest where we give away one month of the future membership for free. Check that out at future thinkers dot org slash giveaway and if you enjoy this video please like Sharon comment. It really helps sutter show more than you know. And if you want more like it than subscribe and hit that bell icon to be notified of new videos. See next time.

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Gucci x Fast Company Series: Can Machines Save Our Planet?

Gucci Podcast

14:48 min | 1 year ago

Gucci x Fast Company Series: Can Machines Save Our Planet?

"Hello and welcome back to the Gucci Kost. This episode is part of the Fast Company series short interviews with influential visionaries recorded at the fast company European Innovation Festival hosted empowered by Gucci Hint editor and writer Casey Finey Interviews Explorer an environmentalist David de Rothschild and research scientist Africa flurries after their panel titled Unnatural Selection, Cam Machine Save the planet. They examine some of our most troubling blind spots when it comes to the planet environment and livelihoods if those affected by climate change. Please night, there may be some background noise in this episode as it was recorded live from the festival. This is Casey I am an editor and writer as Fast Company magazine, and we're here in the Gucci Hub and Milan, and just her a fantastic panel have some of the panel is here with me today. So allow you to introduce yourselves. I am Africa Florida's research scientist at the University of Iowa inconceivable I'm David Rothschild Ventura. An environmentalist but must look so good on a business card. I feel like if you said venture, you sound like you have a goal tax package. Can do these one on the shops and I'm kind of more than moisturizing adventure like I'm definitely not the guy he's hanging off declare for an end and doing the. Rough. Stuff that most people think it's kind of more I should take scorer. Storing, for my understanding. Of. The relationship between humans and Asia absolutely and David mentioned something during the talk aren't interested in you said, and it's true that we know. So little of earth and I want us both of you. You know, what are those most? What are your most troubling blind spots when you think about environmentalism and the things that? People are wanting to address the problems you feel like aren't being addressed. What are those blind spots easy. I mean. I think I'll biggest lines is. This. The concept that growth success? Right it we have to somehow impassioned more. and seeing. We've created a planet that is. Old Sorry I should say. We live on a planet that is taken any when you think about it foreign hall in. Know to evolve. To where we are today, you know with the recipients of an oxygenation event happen to know. What you've been in years ago. Right we're living in a time where we're about to move out from the Holocene. Into the answer, the this human fingerprint right moving to time weather the this epoch will be defined basically. Human fingerprints right in a short period of time since the nineteen fifties if it gets approved so I think I'll blind spot is. Fortunately that we have. You know kind of put this. This lens on that says that the planet was his solely for us that we can consume consuming consuming. There will be an endless horizon at one point maybe hunter-gatherers it might have been. Mysterious. Given that gave us. Wow this and it was endless. Endless it's finite rules and we consume consume consume with. Blinds for all of us, we're all recipients of a device that allows us to buy stuff that we didn't know. We even needed in Iraq before we even know we bought it. You know we're living in a time where we just. told. Success is gross. It's just about growth rather than. Saying actually what about improving or not improving the quality of lives that everybody? With access to water and access to food access to sanitation and access to education. All the things that we can do. Those that's the thing that gets me is that we put consumers fussed. We've become somehow consumers. Thus has been citizens with citizens on spaceship. Earth. But we're only binding if we spend money and if we don't have money to spend, we'll give you a call that allows you debt yourself. And we do it at a country level and we do. Individual level, right. So we taking more than we're giving. and. Biggest and the biggest antagonistic relationship. We have this as either like this. kind of rampant consumption of the natural wild at all costs. To just profit for a few companies. And that is just Yeah it's Sasha blinds. INSCI-. We manage these big misconception that technology scientists are going to be able to Seoul by themselves. These global environmental issues without taking into account, the people who are suffering and who are living these. They're these big eagles. Scientific. Eagles that. Have to feel daily and I hope I never become something like that. But. I think he's a very big misconception. Because in order to change what is happening, we have to work with the people who are at the core of December mental issues. Whatever did this it is and. They are capable to find solutions. We enabled them. So something along the lines of the democratization of data knowledge. and. A team that that's one of the things that the talks that had been a happening yesterday today have road life a little bit of light on these that we may be also eating an era where inequalities can grow on I feel a social responsibility, a human responsibility. Knowledge to A and. To bridge that gap that kind of. because. We had losing knowledge by the way by known including these people who know what is happening and you know they are. A component that we don't understand that we don't know they are part of this. They are no part of the problem, our program saw. I think another blinds part is. The bill on that. is saying is that? As. As a citizen. Of. Above. I am amazed. At how we disregard the data the scientific. We've had in the last year, some of the most condemning reports on the state of nature. Yet, we call get weld need to stand up and take responsibility because they're interested in short is interested in getting reelected they're interested in profit before planet. Interested in exploiting metro sources, indigenous communities, exploiting the land, and so it's not in our interest to validate science. Whereas in their interest to discredit decides to on the fund the cise to tell us that everything's going to be a Ryan we'll have a technological revolution that will solve everything overnight at the point that we're ready to do. It's not going to happen. But. There is also along the lines of what you were saying at the beginning that we have this misconception of. Growth is say that success is growed and a media has a big role a new. Bide no schering. Facts and real knowledge because they just wanted you know to get. The Dad the how. The how the information is manipulated as well A. Critical and create this misconception and this a lack of literacy. For Scientific Data I. Mean. It's amazing. We talk about fate you mean to build on that and we talk about fake news being a new phrase. If you're an environmental, this fake news has been around since day one B right there. Literally, what's insane sinead billions of dollars put into groups and think tanks special organizations that all they do is discredit the science and create fake news and Creighton use information it's been going on forever right because it's just too much money in the short time gain and so what we want to do say you'll be all right. Don't worry about that science hokey pokey in it's not going to and we see it over and over again, the mini that manipulation of the statistics manipulation, the dates, and it becomes overwhelming. So as an individual if some assistance, you guess what? It's two stories warm weather pundit blows up on when we will find which one you gonNA choose I want us to find one. Cool right. So the scientists with old right data with all the information at being discredited. Cow They not getting funded this become. Less was going to ask you because I feel like this is the thing I'm so glad you brought this up because we have all the data. We know we know the implications of what we're doing, but there's little action. So what how Choline? That human action? How can we close that gap and start having some real change? Or me I you know I repeat this over and over but we have to Imbo the people the developing countries they have solutions they are smart is called development. We don't don't just data and methods on them that they can replicate this land boxes. Because they don't trust them on the they know don't use them the believe on the data. Under. Creators -I and unscientific information and data for me it is very crazy. This all this movement about maxine. Is like this I think this Some something a mullah goes to what is happening with a climate change. believes. How Can Be this year and you don't you need on science and they are groups that are still. For Needle, they add for crisis that they believe that there is still as multiple people don't believe the display. Quote. Unquote. Under the what is what is the new black guys? and. Again. Exactly. This is just so much misinformation. There's so much there and I think after you mentioned about the role of media. Yes. Unfortunately we get I think is this idea that we need to tell both sides of the story and we need to build one side up to break it down we need another point of view and the. Komo scary than that is that we've now taken. Nature events like. A fire or flood or a mega storm, and we've tied the into almost entertainment. We've turned it into like in America you'll. You'll see a news piece will come on and it will say you know we you know it'd be like they'll quit firestorm right in California firestone. We'll be back after the break right and the ad is for like a car and all these. Other things. So they're selling advertising off the back of storms. Right thing you know we're creating so much more fear. Right we all the shows that you see on television. A lot of still man versus nature is when animals attack when animals go bad. Why is it always conquering nature? Why can't it be by mimicry and understanding the relationship between humans in ancient because all misunderstanding. Creates pollution is what creates the mess that we're in, but we've always positioned it as fear. So it's like storm hurricane from the East in England when the snow comes as I beast from the east, we create these Tom. Analogy. Wore nature. Then we watch programs where it's man versus shock shock week shot month shot month. The shot here is always went shocks attack. If we actually bothered to slow down. And look at the surface of the skin of the shot you realize it's got these incredible quietening. STOPS ACURA doesn't like to grow in it. Right soon while that might be moving to a post antibiotic era. You could actually replicate surface of the skin shocks replicated onto surfaces, and now you've got a natural antibacterial patent than nature's provided us. But yet we still fascinated with how quickly attacks how hard it bites. It will eat you in the ocean. So when we slow the I would say now maybe tens of thousands of sharks I keep on hanging statistic millions area. There is this one hundred, million sharks, killary CERIGA. Misinformation again. But like when we kill those shocks, we part of us that we're. Going to bite me. So why should I care if you flipped it around us said, actually the shop is evolved of the hundreds of millions of years and is a an incredible example of something that can Survi-, and is an Apex Predator, and actually we paid attention to should be one of the keys just one of many in nature can give us the living on this planet sustain. As the thing that we sent his have to be better storytellers, we haven't been trained for that so. They information that is generated is very complex on now for the. General public to understand on the, we need to go an extra mile to make that understandable and. A He says we have to train ourselves but we also have to work with multidisciplinary teams, big media to convey information on, and that requires investment and maybe investments that those annexes but I. Also. Like we have the duty as scientists to inform a share knowledge. Both solitary time I really appreciate it. Thank you for listening to this episode with Explorer David Direct Child and research scientist Africa fluids who were interviewed by finding. Find more about David and Africa's work and the forest company European Innovation Festival in the episode nights.

David research scientist Africa European Innovation Festival Casey Finey editor Fast Company magazine University of Iowa Asia writer Florida David Rothschild Ventura David de Rothschild Milan ACURA Seoul Holocene hurricane Iraq
Episdio #199  HomeOffice

ChupaCast

59:42 min | 10 months ago

Episdio #199 HomeOffice

"Bulwer is super cast Sabal boop payroll would be Muslim Masala Sobe do Akilahsiti state which you ain't home offs game. It's got a number of ETA with my S- I'm for them and they didn't hear Cup but almost into this division possibility la duty. He'll travel custodian. Also this Jimmy who put their data cannock off things seok data in the mail. Okay inside off Sokaia Gio Benitez. Ill sought my handle it. Keep vice off the video. Homing al-mushin equals wash or visit abuse. GotTa See we look towards Jim. Proud of what? You Eighty six adopt. You wanted to say they had to be barbecue. Sink Weekday Yoy movie debut but Hamas New Park be made talk radio from April Danny. Kommt UP FOR BUSH. Catchpole human scoop from your finish. It was put a check writing my stayahead. So Sialkot. Isaiah stuck out robust podcast. You got more ono now. Riley delete thirty. Me Is who I saw those. Your podcast you for forty two. Pacifica chain often that Elena's lock is a system still cutting lethem in. This case was exactly as Lhasa. Scotty as Benico could Nakajima Kabila can also Lamu Fans when you go to college my wedding. Akio what and fragile. People with soft musty GOCHA minds age based on the show also injured. I landed on Gluska. Own-goal pathologists off L. U. Two. Two me he our quote. I orchestrated medium. Goal view equals sympathetic. I eat cheese. Come as you are traveling to for the department back put. We'll put that poem connect Home Order Online. Look back at Novi could do. Does it came on? Mahonia Vinci. Me Not to coddle modern. Will Vino thoroughly you? Are you about the open for the? Didn't you ood. Would you up the cut? You gotTA starkville sources uplift achievable sparkles. You'll do you watch do loose. Who's Manolis tavist either out sash know at domestic cheeses? Lucasfilm's Maceio hanging out now. Listen I don't you now by Scott cold call about almost precipitated kinky Monday Mayo or loved the scene or that community or non compliant billion on your own love you got up here in New York about him and stuff. I love it makes you got a block at the follow up for for this time of day. Nepal and legal from Qatar Qatar. Faquir Elsa Curricula Web. Your if you boss I to them on Komo News London up. Maybe view is coming in any bleeding as somebody new properties or Abu spaces for the monarchy Bosca for shots. You don't miss alleged similar. Skip SLEEP DATA. Now our guest sobe. You also follow her. Own Mega with Beka suffering cudgeon Toyota Speaker. Do I get in combat contests even bigger by hope? I keep milk them at WNYC WNYC simone into some pechiney level up such via better as your own truly do playstation see on a couple of updated funny about India District Yoga You wink. On money's FICA ULLMARK crew all chances. Saint Louis New. Coal quasi took tourism's spree thing. They slander got let his internal to the material. They kill some weeping bitchy nature. You eat those too whole lot. I mean not quick and must've basically seem as I am on Okocha pay. Who Do you follow nodding either? He's a little said as a player in my tinkerer and who they put. It actually paid. Bill read through to talk to watch things. Let's talk about gaming acuity a sweet you kissing a kill the Soul Beila heavily. Yes he she told me to make amends. Military SINGLES CUSTODIAL SYNAGOGUES LOGAN. Three key new twice the miser whom you speak this housing mice whom much needed Vedran jatoric speaker. Did Safavi got some new boss. Within which throws the set they would attribute save my God man woman who I've just got life that was John Mike O. M. Salata up cassette tape could've help it may be idea. Iverson is a viable policy offer. Minimum Timothy crew will look stupider soon. I'll look into at that age to these last couple of the of the apple through the Internet solid. Your Home Office. The German lousy will still have a concert often sooner composers event noisy if you think yeah he prefers do despite cast your mind in order to jeter survive. When is our show buckets out of about five histone SIP almost all home? Also boost the cosmic. Thank you only on your old. Ooh Ludicrous talking or Miso with details. You you you wash Guterman minimize vessels. What is a mock documentary? Forty Autumn Underneath within about thing they secured water. What bullying preserve. This wouldn't sit down with whom you obviously will say. No one is what the loud decision Gina Kepi switch alkalinity Alah Game. I don't Joe. Gamy desio bobby got speed on. The scene was cheap car so I submit also Jessica Use League which I don't see us going to meet you. There will be an economist. You happy to Malaysia PEA knuckle. Mainly money may have the body stomach was already on phase skim. Oh Can Pablo put him on the job up Novi Mea even though we may movements professing in Gaza Petty Petty Petty. Well by by Art Vincent Custodial Legible hob itching anything. Manson great is always this circle. Costco Peggy Medical Nothing Omar. Oh he beat us. It's don't beat up miserable north. Selene FOCUS OFF. Because I know it's coming and I don't keep score zero. You've gotta kept. You knew the quickpoint elephants allergy thing. This is this. Could he do move Pat Dane? Connor Takata Sunny media. Not The summit is call as Yong live their body but by by scholar will be there by Socal mckinney me in cuisine pinning Monkey Zuma cuisine. Up The OH. The DACA was not dodge for CPAP later Mitchell tournament. Jeaner shoe dog being mail order. Romeo Jetta which almost yeah. Yo l par those you may have me Fox. Foil said might be a monkey. Business Acquitting Dana Gaming stuggling. I'll usually is not too big in Tacoma ballet no no abiding district sober newsra. 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Y'All tomato denim is a sign as GE curriculum has his new vegetables educational Walsall's legitimized by Sila. Bata forty of all wolf. This new records officials cut cut secure. Cut Out the door because Donald Tusk Kiki Abubakari a key. Arthritic need somebody to mingle Lucia kicking off some boots. All you're interested in court car named Yellow Savita. Cbs News that he'd sink. She gets in Gaza. Call Me Mersch. Okay Jessica's jumping out of the call. What other will appear Nelson is little Jack legitimate other birds? Which allows you live. Let's close owners. He because these titles this particular by Gio but ultimately allowed Joel Gist on when to Suzhou. Where I don't look to ask buy we own help. I conduct cassava. These boys have L. E. S. appeal midnights and still his powder chain them. Sadda- cheeky would awesome. Sandy door police to his assistant. Da Ramos is the solid tarum. No money out of my mouth stories. Of course it going to give it to me. Telefoni mice in the number of Councillors minimum owners yet and she has people book in God the Nfl College visits to me a Canadian though. He much did Alec. If you sweep it is out. Chick Webb. At Hebrew sacred technology are scuttled discussed. Cut In windy feud up with Markelle. Data is what since. Then you've got the insider risk your because there's an days automakers vigil genetic most Sawyer whom you obey Buchanan. Just Kinda Cadaver John. Tarum data essay cinnamon on it took Kabul. Kunar is did you get is damage. Won't be saluted Jihad group with the guy that I would keep north of Cedar bookable g of Walkway. Kara moment aquit collect couple of guessing about daughter. Can you hold on your home? You go through the bone car. Look Number Cottam. Macy's semi critical to Giannotti Giannotti. Aleta my classy events doubled. Carter go home. Kakadu Squall chagall Notre Bali to Jim. Why do you think sexual? Dnc Madonna's worst possible so do loop meaning Q? All meeting Goethe eating by people assessing of Bolton often each have got your dial leave until the Seattle Cavanaugh. Millions Louder would assess of the water mud based on the JBC stays basically you wake elevator music. Major increase your phone told me and also Pacific Mussel Faysal. Soy Reducing Base your young finished Amino North you to all the oils in your monitoring you know Puerto Rico Sciatica Shigella up all eastern Asia. Today's media thirty marsupials as means to me some lost his early Quadra took quizzes. Boys Say Syfy Casino Win over Joel. Says he's coming off of Personal Thomas. Train capacity what you need. I mean I'm out here tonight though anymore. Crossing that mid skinny butter the data thus sally to be on his own opening Televisa better king quarter the immediate of Joe Gaming Mouse who radio. I'm so sick. We'll sit back housing or the stop all related items so beautiful about half of citizens days it was supposed to do ludicrous. Diffusers zero base. Got Up your own check on us the Grain David Secrets Ellen. Box live firm. Also which I if. I don't know when we'll sit down. Sit through said I WANNA see all my apology. Through submitted deals sips of economic about buying three over this report. Eager those under glad Birdie at least somebody cognitive destroyed component is gonNA wash aboard will offset will simply typically gouging league onto those leaders in the league. Let's do Monkey Kim. You hate the guests here. Do Not Shooting Lincoln what's up fallacy. Oh interesting I whom you follow the cash to Beijing monocle magazine. I don't talk. How do not all set? I what do I notice the flow? He not don't start at Gusto. Milley Ethan and market you guys as well this national data you've had with. Don't keep took Ms Mu Sochua vice sites in America won't continue his check you up. Pick up the link hospital since those Mosca on your channels we can set up in upbeat fishermen noted by the by the key of Theo. 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Senator queuing reasons. I think they say Scott Season Year. He's in the pasta phase evens by. He might do Hamasaki. Was I love it out of my mouth out of who get courageous on the road? Dot For mental manage to yours ninety five off wounded fallacy said. I'm just a similar base flagged. Go back you make you talking this long off. Some people boycott. I don't know which just communicate making medium is false and stop Elise Hu Smith's job is I don't not fair it's Okay Louis Arch from ossie com. Kill me coming up to get through cheese. Although he doesn't know be away but his desk wwco meeting was on talk. Talk to yourself. Selo legal car been sitting booster got antibodies. I don't get it. I kings in Kings Aqazadeh. But you'll have a job polishing BECCA my novels way. I can think of don't blessing. The wisdom was luckily justice. Old Willy Berry missed it. Even you will save up. What am I supposed to do? And the proposal was hopeful thesis of Castle. Pull a better. David speeded up half a day to do that. Tornado PAS home by the U. S. don't admit outage about the keys I even amidst this was the H. Ged CARGO Bay. Sonic would awesome Assab each. I suppose on got snacks and I said there's a lot of fun. Felt the need to act. I kinda specific better. Ooh hookah gossip stuff. That woman this Boston. Mass is January. Nine cars let's quizzes Carla. What DOES APRIL LAVA? Because you check off because vice only Musco skeletal no pricing beggar. Bobby G. Jon Landau Bug will got issued Spain. Gene US might as well. So what Balkan when they need to send them by allow submit. It will turn your owner. Somebody put a biology. No got him. I see a lot though cards as possible. Out of Ila lovely dish sock Mita God or Mugabe's Odyssey Attic visiting. Just it's this little local digital economy. Spanish I eat junk. Cotton Juggle opera jobs. Who Correctly the Shapiro Nine? Kick it enough range easy new. Kahin Stewardship bigger kind of big oak handle 2-0 welcome through the Postal Code Levin pershing cash off on the Modem and the quality color that is through being copies of course quiz Luca. He said his Senegal van Heusen MPG. Mindset when you Miss Eight Dodge joke jail lying north lock our permits I'll nine genes jeep gun when you want to and they own are using the genre music model clench can help. Bill's impact cheek. I can visit tunnel through heavy bill to be whisking. What was my life? You can alight Viki Seattle served for more than they're doing. GotTa pull check. Oh things spoke of surveys mutate. Zimmer you always. They're out of Louisville compromise movies POLKA. I'm salty can because dob as people that would show coming which join me always speak to me. I got it through the bright side. You lucky view of Severe Christiane F. Quick is a lot of threes. Our old his book up on ice. This Kim decision will be need. Lobbyists AREN'T GONNA kick you said one dollars solvent solvent. Put an ICE. I'm all for these. Are some good won't cripple visualize up. He's on his vice viewed. Uk or new Youtube e based on basically my grandfather. The concert unusual say it is a little revealing takover terrier vision off super visuals. I'm asking not keen on the hot. He's so squashes ancient labor. It'd be nice thoughtful. I I can only go. So preached Fisher gathers need to follow partner. Kind girl earn.

Tacoma Gaza Jimmy Gio Benitez Bill Jim Lucia Mahonia Vinci David Secrets Ellen New York America Sialkot Lhasa Hamas New Park Bulwer Novi Gluska Akio Isaiah
Haunted Crime Scenes 16: Ang Sumpa sa Pamilya (Season Finale) || Tagalog Horror Story

Stories Philippines Podcast

14:18 min | 9 months ago

Haunted Crime Scenes 16: Ang Sumpa sa Pamilya (Season Finale) || Tagalog Horror Story

"This episode is sponsored by inker. Podcasting is so much fun and now it's easier than ever to start your own podcast with anger. Everyone is passionate about something for example. I love talking about spooky stuff. Now thanks to Anchor. You can spread the word about the things you love and maybe even make some money doing it. Start Your podcast for free with anchor using the anger APP or by going to anchor on. Fm They'll even distribute your show for you. You'll be heard on spotify apple podcasts. And many more of your favorite podcast platforms. Anger also provides tools to allow you to record. And Edit your show from your computer and even from your phone and no matter how big or small your audience is you can make money from your podcast. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. I using her. And it's been the best podcasting platform. I've been a part of so. Join me. Start Your podcast today by downloading the anchor APP or go to Anchor Dot FM. We all have something to say. Things Anchor Acela Butts Hut. The more at so mobile society slade door story Philippine spot guests iming bug an adenoid opponent. Atop Augusta More Ramming mockery men of eighteen plus But our meeting Mugabe knock out the MARINA BERTHA. Beat up de the hat number guy got number. Her boy did had better money. Mahatma percents Malaysian public whole Amino co-host It'll hunted grind seats. Not did say no no stories. Philippines guests Not Begin clearly. Not Being Episode Hunted Ryan Scenes Young Season some Osama notting Orient Story on it'll Button Super Media by Sharyn. November Wilson. Been SILTING MALAITA. Negating Sober non-metallic Lalu nocco Ito eighteen thousand mid awesome button condemn it. Omar Mateen Dan COMP- on the bus on a million people. Dial Ditto Nazi a non violent on Kazan who NC lung mobile APP and Solid Yola Park. Somebody Kina Mcgarth NBC LA doing market and a lobby. Some Ankarlo Kuta died along. Snobby Louis Maga. 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Muggsy mulally here on C. No Sustained Tan. Lan Asandra at an and there are some Marquis Panel Tobacco Saliba Dubai bookkeeper or Number Gone Dungu on Canyon Pamunkey. Nothing Ara supply school but in Inner Grano beat normally eaten by donation about who hung gun. Nobody Donlon than a SR one on arable dito paramount Pasadena by subdivisions Adobo. Pablo Seila but album Lillian. Lui Malaysia. Dubai Kasama Sawa along. One thousand nine hundred eighty but communicates bits in kindy not in tomorrow but Dylan Umberto Salon. Luma Pizza Gobierno To meet US tomorrow looks at the Lilla one on Bunker Hill bits on by a mommy. Audino allowable shop. We don't book Holocene Dean umbrella on Qatar. One Lebron's is that to be inelegant known dellagha in Dima laminant depot your thought on the Potomac Dania enormous. Now I'm Tanya media you might be local data your onion. Allama namaste button. Ab NOT UNKIND MA ballot and down being a guy album. Lario dotting cussing pan the Darpa Napa Bagua shuttle. 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Almanaco de Frias XIII - Gugacast - S06E01

Gugacast

1:13:49 hr | Last week

Almanaco de Frias XIII - Gugacast - S06E01

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Matt Flynn And Defending Blake Bortles

Pardon My Take

1:34:06 hr | 2 years ago

Matt Flynn And Defending Blake Bortles

"On today's part of my take we have Holocene backup quarterback. Matt flynn. He played with the Packers the saints. The patriots the raiders the Seahawks everywhere. He's got some good insight into Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers relationship and also we settle the debate. What is the Matt Flynn game? We also have talked about the Texans Monday night football. And we have to address what happened in Jacksonville, we will get to that and much much more. But before we start PF t you need to do the velveeta ad and it was requested. You do it in the sexy voice in I. Yeah, I'm just gonna plug my ears when he do this. Okay. Oh, I'll plug years with someone turn off my hands. I do not want to to some of those years. If you give me any whole, okay, go go, just go. Just get us. I wanna talk to dress. Only talk to you guys out there about velveeta. They know what moves product, and that's PF t- talking about that the Lucious saucy cheesy stuff sweetest voice possible. So shout out to them for recognizing great ad campaign. I wanna talk to you guys because being an SEC. It can be so draining game day ritual begins early yet tailgates starts in the morning fan stand. They make you voices heard the stands every single man that game. The weather is often the either scorching and humid cold and rainy either way it's wet and watching that bar or with friends. It can be Justice intents after a long day being an SEC fan you want nothing more than your couch to Dolgin nothing. But the good stuff, you know, what I'm talking about. Of course, I'm talking about Ville vita shows and she's gold. It is the most delicious MAC and cheese product after. So he's making. I love it. So very very deeply. It's got a unique richness cheese. Cheesiness melting preposterously pool. The cream cheese sauce cheese. You're by the ever thumbs possible crave. -able postgame snack. It's quick. And it's easy to prepare know addition. Greetings necessary. You just oil that water. You cook? The shows you stern the cheese sauce and sound that it makes when you stern that cheese sauce in there. He has talking about and to say anything else about that to satisfy your postgame craving cheesy. Melty Cremers news shows. Done. Good. Okay. Let's go. Carbon. Wasn't a part of my take presented by seek today is Wednesday November twenty eighth and the Houston Texans. We'll just not stop fucking winning. I'm doing the pinky removal. PF t they have won. They're the first team infringe in NFL history to win h streak games. After starting Owen, three know. And they look pretty damn good doing what the hell they're they look good. It all facets of the game. I'm the boomer clip. Hank Schram walking up the sideline L is going on out here. Listen, I haven't I haven't seen a team bounced back like this maybe ever they are on a hot streak. I dunno has any team ever gone Owen three and then eight knowing the not won the Super Bowl. I don't know. That's actually never happened never happened before. I in fact, I want to be the bigger man in the situation because you know, I think that you want to follow through on this bet. But. Oh, I have to win the super bombed thoughtless. And I think that now's the time to maybe offer you a hedge. No and say what if we just like tear the nail out of you right now, actually is worse. Listen, and then you get to keep the nub. It is is become such a like a thing that I am now having real discussions with people like how to actually properly do this. And I'm we met a hand surgeon in in Louisiana who said he would watch over and make sure that I don't mangle my hand forever. Which actually that makes no sense because I will make go my hand forever. It was the omens are so bad. They showed a clip of a guy with the nub holding Texans helmet during the Monday night game. They know what they're doing and the Texans. Look like the titans came out there up ten nothing like, okay, good. Finally, they fall back to earth. Let's just like they dominate and they've got an owner that just passed away. They're playing the season for purpose right now. Here's the only thing that I think will save me. And I'm gonna say God forbid, and I'm going to say it'd be real shame to Shawn Watson still take so many hits that like even Bill Brian is so stupid at the end of the half that you see that at the end of the half win. There was maybe twenty or no is the end of the game when they were up a two or three scores, and they were just kind of running out the clock, and he had to Shawn Watson get absolutely pulverized on a play. Like, what are you doing? But keep doing it. Here's the thing about about watching the style that he plays in. He takes a lot of shots on his own. Even if they're not pleased that expose them to getting hit, right? More than others. He'll still dance around the pocket a little bit longer. He doesn't know really win to get rid of the ball. Just yet. Lakes. Well, you're like really long. So it always looks like a real juicy target. You know, what it is? He's like, you know, marshawn Lynch runs where he's just like, always crab leg the whole time. Because he's got he's got these powerful quads at are just ready to go in any direction to Shawn Watson runs in that same way. But he just doesn't have the thick legs. And big ask that marshawn has. Yes. So yeah, you're right. It does it looks a little scary sometimes. But that's what you get when you just like come up playing football. And you're used to just being able to run around everybody. True. Just dominated the. Not in this league. Hey faster than you're used to they're grown. They're grown ask jesse's. I just need them to not get a by. That's when I'll get very nervous because I don't think they can win three playoff games. But I do think they can win two playoff games to then get to the Super Bowl. And then if during the Super Bowl, it's like, I don't even know what we do. We do a watch party or something. Where just I mean, I from a bad is a bad situation. I mean, listen, we do the done chain. I was trying to make a point that once you're done chain someone it's done chained for life. And guess what? The point has backfired because the Texans have gone eight. No since their own three start and the dunk chain. Yes. And and you make a good point about about getting the by getting home field because like Houston is a is a trap for teams playing on the road number one. It's so big that you get lost there, and it sucks, and all you see is concrete, and it's just a terrible traffic city. So you're just thrown off your whole game yelp from the get go to there's a lot of really good food there. But it's all super heavy food. So teams are playing the next day with. Like a belly full of cement and number three. There's tons of strip clubs. Yup. That's well. Tampa would be really good team. If that was the case, but listen, I'm still not worried. I'm still not worried. Are you going to say that sound a little worried, not worry? Yeah. Yeah. That was that was the not worried sigh that was there's a few. Wow. No word size like. With the ph at the start your showers. We actually just the sound you make when you sit down. Okay. So let's theoretically if it was Super Bowl Sunday, and they were in it, would you do the pinky cutting in this room. No, well, I have to figure out how to do it. Yeah. I mean, if they get to Super Bowl we'll have to have like real planning situation. Gar coop to be talking to doctors. We'll do the whole thing cigar cutter. Yeah. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. Well, let's just table it because I'm not worried I'm not worried, and you're not if I keep saying we're not worried that I'm not worried we have to talk about the real story in the NFL, and it's going to be an emotional one. Blake Bortles has been demoted. Cody Kessler has now been named the starting quarterback in Jacksonville. They fired their offense coordinator. I'll start here. I think Cody Kessler stinks. I think he's trash. Yeah. Absolutely trash. Let's see. Well, here's here's sign number one that Cody Kessler trash ready for this. Yeah. Hugh Jackson thinks he's good. Yeah. Boom. Then there's no bigger indictment. Here's another sign for Cody Kessler being not great. He went to USC. But people don't even remember he went to USC in most quarterback from USC. You're like man that guy's good. John David booty ever heard of him. I was doing some research on him. And I saw that he went to USC. I forgot that yet. Good. And then I looked like he must have been like a one year starter something like that. No. He started for like three years. Yeah. He also looks like he should be working like Accenture or something. He had this guy out of here to me. He looks like a mixture of Chris Catan from SNL if you cloned him with Jeffrey, the former kicker of the Steelers. Ooh. Remember Jeffrey gotten to fight with the everyone will know he got in the fight with the towel. The the hand towel thing in a bathroom that was the Dyson airplane. He wasn't it is airplay because it was so long ago. I was gonna say Dyson air blade would beat the shit out machine. He beat the he think he'd beat it up. But I think he also got beat up by it. So okay, classic kicker, boy was stolen valor. From the terrible towel to defend the yellow flags honor in in real in real talk. Here obviously sucks because we love Blake. And he's a friend. And he's a great guy. I do think he will bounce back. I don't think this is the last we will hear of Blake Bortles. I'm I'm just not going to give Cody Kessler fair shot. I know when they say that when they're like, we'll give this guy fair shot. I'm going the other way I'm saying I'm not giving fair shot. If he if he wins a game on Sunday against the colts still not giving him a fair shot. Probably the defense. It did it. I agree with that one hundred percent. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me. If Cody Kessler was a bad teammate from the gecko. It was maybe like feeding Blake bad information and telling him like. This audible means x y and z if you're backup, and we'll talk to Matt Flynn later about being a good backup. Yup. Being the alpha beta in the room, Cody Kessler. He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy. I don't think he was there to make Blake Bortles better. I think he was brought in to make Blake Bortles nervous. Yes. And that's not a recipe for having a good football team. You need your guy to be locked in all the time and have all the confidence of world. You don't get that. When you get a backstabbing snake like Cody Kessler, and you're meeting he sold foreigner sessions. Yeah. Four jail. That's that's a lot in the game. That's like shit almost Nathan you know, what that is Nathan Peterman would only have four interceptions. If he had a coach that would pull them out after the first quarter of every game. He's had twenty twenty one sacks on in two thousand sixteen in eight games. She got asked what the provocation was there? Yeah. You do. Just ask that listen. I watched some tape on Cody Kessler his offense aligned didn't pick them up every time. He got sacked. So that makes you wonder what kind of leader you. I'm going to keep a close very close eye. Every time Cody. Gets knocked down to see how quickly those hands go to pick them up. He the Jaguars are just having the season from hell it really can't go worse. Like, they everything has kind of you know, it could go worse. If would've Cody Kessler takes them to the playoffs. No. He's not. We're not giving a chance remember that? Remember, the whole we're not giving a chance the Jaguars did win the Super Bowl week too though against I was just came for for Blake Bortles. And so I think you just raise a banner and just pretend that this year didn't happen. Well, yeah, you you put up like the capitals used to have or knows the colts that. Yeah. Had like AFC finalists. Yeah. It's getting AFC finalist banner in Jacksonville. I think we put it in the pool AFC finalists. And then next to it say redeemed are AFC finalist loss the year. Yep. So essentially Super Bowl ran the tailless. Yeah. Won't be a banner just have. It'd be like a pool noodle if lasted two if if we had gone eighteen weeks like Adele wants to Jaguars would have been in the Super Bowl. That's I think that's very fair. And it's a shame. What happened to Blake? And we still have his back. Oh one hundred percent if you wanna come and play coming Blake. But we're going to deal with us too. Don't want that smoke. I think that I gotta Nope. Yeah. You don't wanna fight. You do not want to get in a fight with future yet. That's even more dangerous. I'm not afraid to lose my head. Cauliflower ear or nubs which one rather fight? I think your foot guy it's pretty intimidating to. I might if I end up with the nub I might just like by chopper and become a become like a hells angel guy. Like, hey, how'd you lose? You know, like I got a big bar fight. Now paso. Oh, I said that the Texans were done in two thousand eighteen and they weren't actually. No. You got to do. It's gonna be on your left hand. Right. You gotta start playing the banjo or guitar history. Garcia Django Rahm Emanuel was his name Django Reinhardt. Yup. Was that the guy with two fingers? Sure. Sure. Yeah. You gotta get a gold picky. Oh, yeah. I will. I will it will be it'll be a major flex. Can. You get a prosthetic limb for just the end of your pinky. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. You should definitely do that. You can hide contraband in. They're not saying, no. All sorts of stuff that are weirdly has a really long nail. Oh, maybe when that vibrates to. Yeah. For the ladies. Yeah. All right. The other story we've got to talk about the our words. Wow. Good job guys. You just signed Ruben foster when he probably would have gone on sign. Yeah. You think and he's what does he is third incident? Third domestic violence incident in the last like year and a half this. It's also like, you know, how they always talk about red flags in the NFL, and you know, Colin coward. But like, oh it's a red flag. He'd Baker Mayfield didn't run with his teammates. And how about the red flag that people forget Reuben foster fought a nurse at the combine in left early yet. That's pretty bad. But listen, I mean with Medicare costs in what they are after ObamaCare like you wanna fight every nurse. So that's a common thing. What are the what do Redskins lists like how do these here in this? Why don't you know? Here's here's the thing. And like this is come out a little bit over the last few years. It's it's pretty obvious that like, I think I've made it clear I am somewhat of a Redskins fan, and I say somewhat, and I think a lot of people identify with this that they liked the team in theory that grew up in the area for whatever reason you grew up rooting for the team, and you like them, and you just can't muster the courage to ever give a shit about the team because they've got Dan Snyder running it, he's always liable to pull some stupid monkey ass bullshit. Like this where he brings in a guy that could absolutely would have gone on claim. Yes. And then you wait till the investigation plays. Let's say best case for Reuben foster. It's the same as last. They don't charge them Willis third year and a half that's best case scenario. And then at that point if you're for whatever. Reason convinced he didn't do anything. Then maybe maybe bring him in you don't claim off waivers with no one else is going to do. This is like this is what happens every single time. I start to kind of care about the Redskins every single time. I start to think maybe there's hope this year. I thought they were gonna win the division. Right. When Alex Smith was playing said we have to late said the Vikings. I thought so in the first round it's still possible. But every time they give you like a little bit of hope and you're like, maybe I'm okay with this team. Now, they managed to fuck it up in a new way. And this is a new way for like he brought an album Hanes worth and gave him one hundred fifty million dollars. And all he had done was just like renaissance car over a couple of guys and stomped on a do Ted. Well, here's the thing. It's it's the NFL. And I think it you'd be fooling yourself. If you ever assume that an NFL franchise wouldn't sign a guy who has issues in his past but can perform on the field. We've seen it right million times. The in pro sports, they will you know, anyone can get a million different chances. If they are a good player but to. Do it three days after when you said the same thing like the he probably would have gone on on signed is a wild move. It's stupid. It's okay. They're like their degrees of I guess, you can relate it back to when the cubs picked up around his Chapman. Right. You didn't feel. You throw me into that. I'm just saying I'm just saying you didn't feel good about that. You deal your own shut. I'm no I'm actually going to give their cubs organization a little bit of a compliment. I think because they brought him in and it was very much like okay, we need to win now. Okay. At least they're going all in and saying, yeah, we don't give a fuck about character concerns because we want to bring a championship with the Redskins. They're not gonna win ship this year. This is like he's not the last piece of a puzzle. He's just the latest in a long series of assholes that they've brought in. And this is it's so tough to to root for this team when they do shit like this it the only thing I could possibly think is thread skins have tried to build basically. Alabama's defense over the last three years they've got like four or five starters. I think from the university Alabama. And so they're like, okay. Maybe his former college teammates will keep them in line before he started getting that narrative before he started getting arrested. Oh, that's weird. How all of a sudden he got away from the university of Alabama and Nick Sabin and his Pinkerton thugs. And then for the first time as life was around him and started get arrested for all the interesting. But my my theory is that Dan Snyder is start paying payments on his dodge charger. Exactly. Yeah. He's he's bankrupt. Now because he doesn't know how to balance a check for the first time. But yeah, I think maybe hey, Dan cider, I'll give you some credit. Maybe you're trying to answer the question if Alabama could beat a pro team. Yeah. Maybe maybe you're just a blogger. That's and this is what you're trying to accomplish. That's actually a very high compliment you gave him. Yes. No. That's highest seemed blogger tag. Yeah. That's the highest compliment for a short short, man. Either way. The biggest story we will get to in segments in. That's that Adam schefters getting fucked with we'll get to that. Segments. Let's do hotseat cool thrown them. We'll get to Matt Flynn, Tom. Let's start with PF PFC artsy cool through my hot seat. Okay. My first hot seat is Mars. Yep. So we just landed another Rover on Mars. I think is the eighth one. Yup. What happened the other Jack of the they'll died and Matt Damon go, they grow potatoes. You take a bunch of pictures. Yeah. And then they're like well can't come back. Well, he's. Yeah. It's very sad. Yeah. I mean, they abandoned the batteries died. I'll tell you one thing just wasting it as a big garbage dumped her when Jeff Bezos has his robot revolution, those robots will remember all the times, we sent their brothers and sisters to to die. Yeah. That shit won't be forgotten. Yeah. Absolutely. I think you're one hundred percent correct on that. And I'm putting Mars on the hot seat because it turns out still sucks. Yeah. We're seeing the first pictures come back and live there. A breaking news. It's red. It's gotta shitload of sand. It's basically northern Arizona. Yep. So that's great so mountains. Yeah. Oh, here's a prediction. They're going to maybe find traces. Of what might have been water? Billion years zillion years you put there, but the headlines are going to say evidence of water on Mars, which we already have. Yeah. Look this used to be a river. I mean, listen, we're not going to Mars. We're not going, mar let's all here with an asteroid or something it's going to happen. Hopefully, hopefully like you said he can Saudis. It's when you're you're down a couple of grand your bookie, listen, you don't have to pay your bookie when an asteroid hits earth. That is actually a fact there you no one has ever had to pay their bookie the dinosaurs back then no one ever had to pay their belly. When the asteroid shitload raptors that just Welsh out on a lot of gamble. Do you know what a little side? Whoa. Because we were just talking about dinosaurs, real quick. Did you see the tweet this been going viral? How someone invented all dinosaur noises because we don't know actually what they sounded lying. That's a big time while yeah, I've talked in the king's English a day. Yeah. And and that was what the T Rex was doing sending me online. Yeah. I think the person said what if they all like Docker meow? Like death bullshit that will be why. But. I've always wondered how how you so cover. They roared basil. I saw Jurassic Park animals that are comparable. I saw Jurassic Park, bro. Drastic. Roar the mute alligators. Don't roar. It's because dragons elephants roared, but alligators don't roar. They they croak. Yes. So they don't roar though. I'm not saying every listen, no. I'm just saying house leaders are basically dinosaurs. We also don't know what the skin of a dinosaur looked like somebody just invented that shit too. Yeah. It could have been Gucci could have been feathers. Yeah. Could have been anything. Yeah. Okay. Don't you? What else are you? Let's just go to let's go to Venus. Stop going to Mars. I'm sick Amar's. Will that's where mentor from? Yes. So let's go find some chicks. Okay. Venus posts with Mars is like the ultimate fellas. Hey, fella's name of that book mentor from Mars women are from Venus. Yeah. That that's a that's how we should do a book reading club now fucking. Yeah. No what ours. Get more candy bars. Whoa. Is that true girls? Go to Venus, get more. What when I okay. What else you got fifty? My other hot seat is Wales. Okay. For two reasons. Go on. He why are you looking at Mary now for two because we making contact. Yeah. Okay. Spitting active listening. Yep. I reason why is because dozens and dozens of dead whales just washed up on a beach. I believe in New Zealand that sounds bad. Yeah. So I don't know like when animals are committing mass suicide Heaven's Gate Colt. Look, that's that's a bad omen. I would remember like we had birds that just like flew out of the sky and just landed. No. That was the Vikings new stadium. Oh, yeah. There were flying those Jared Allen out his shotgun rolling off. No. But it's bad. It's bad. When that it's bad. And the second reason why wheels are on the hot seat is. Because did you see the inventor of McAfee antivirus software? He went on Twitter tirade talking about how several times he's tried to fuck Wales. And there's this one it's like an annual thing. I think it's also New Zealand other think about it. Okay. Where? It's like a a Big Sur Mony were dozens of people paddle out into the ocean. And then they like put a guy on a whale. And he tries to fuck away. All guys tried to fuck a will. And he ended up like a broken rib and crush turn good. Yes. That's like that story about the person who into the aquarium who fucked dolphin and then then broke up with dolphin dolphin killed itself shape. Water. That's the you're talking about the shape of water you guys. Remember this? Whoa. From snooky back in the day when she said, I hate the ocean. It's all whale sperm. Everybody Google it. Because that's why the water is salty. Sperm. That's great. Yeah. Genius. Yeah. That's yeah. Don't go on the ocean. You might get pregnant. I take back anything that I've ever said about. Yeah. You cool. Throwing my COO thrown. My first cool thrown is going to be the thrones. My cool thrones. First one is going to be. You have a list that you're picking from university North Carolina. Nostalgia. Okay. Because MAC was what was the other thing? I wrote down a bunch of words, it didn't make sense. Okay. Yeah. Mack Brown's map Browns back. Yup. And I I like Mack Brown as a person he's not he's not really motivated guy to get out really do stuff. He he's his was really good at talking to alumni that have a shitload of money won't and getting them to pony up. Oh, I was gonna say missing on shirt thin quarterbacks and making trying to make him safeties. Yeah. But good thing is the state of North Carolina hasn't had a good quarterback. Come out of it. What Philip rivers, right and the nice try Philip rivers. Nice. Try. I don't know. You saw my Mitch Trubisky stats. Wait. We're Mitch grow up, Ohio. Okay. That's what I meant. Yeah. Yeah. Dove actually from there. No. He would hit on Mitch because he brought him in from out of state, right? Also, we'll from North Carolina. So you really put yourself in a pickle here. Yeah. Well, I'm glad okay. What's your other cool thrown? My other cool thrown is. Monica lewinsky. Putting the most random classy cool. Thrones of all time Mars Wales. Mack Brown, Monica Lewinsky. Yeah. I mean it all. Monica. Did you see the documentary better? There's like a new documentary about the Ken Starr report. Okay. And that whole thing and she actually comes out looking great like she is she is become like a national hero. She's still address. No, I think she gave that to the Smithsonian. Oh, okay. Go check that out. Wait where where's this documentary? It's just on TV. But like, can you point people in the right direction on TV? You guys have you hiring? Smoke drugs. So did you watch it? Yeah. I watched it. What do you mean? Okay. So where did you watch it? I watched it on the television. Okay. Somebody listen, I don't I don't I don't choose the everything that I watched but ended up watching it, and you were just watching the spice channel, and you thought it was in Monaco. No what it might have been channel up without even going. You know, what it was? It was who's nail and Palin. Yeah. I saw that. And I was like I like this Monica Lewinsky, and it was equal. Yeah. It was like in the videos that you if you like this you also might like this. Yeah. So yeah. Monica Lewinsky or was her name Jesse James was editor j- the porn star morning star. Yeah. Jesse james? Yeah. What does that have to do? No. He's blonde will who played Sarah Palin. That was Lisa. Lisa an yeah. Okay. She actually just made a comeback. Did she she had a few of those? No, she actually really liked. She was like, I'm back. She said she retired. And then there's a big thing. Not that. I would know Hank. Good since we're on the subject. My hot seat is Kim crashing good name. So in this week's keeping up with the Kardashians shoes. Talking. How she she used to be wild child. She should get crazy. She said she was high on ecstasy when she made her her famous famous tape. Okay. So doesn't count Ray j then came out today and said she wasn't high on ecstasy. But she was only smoking pot from peanuts pipe so Kim Kardashian. Good name is Kat it. She was getting that good good and felt like ecstasy. All right. Why would she come out and say this I feel like there's enough people? Now that probably forget that it was a sex tape that like kind of launched this whole thing that she just kind of went back down the rabbit hole with Christian or told her to say, yeah. And it's because they haven't been in the news much recently. Exactly people are saying, she's not funny more. So she had to be like true. Yeah. Yeah. Which am. Yeah. Not fun. My other hot seat is Oscar de LA Hoya. Okay. Dana white in a press conference talking about the chocolate L fight called them Oscar de LA coquette you 'cause I he he he thought chocolate Oceana fought. He said, listen, I love chuckled L, and I don't ever want to bad mouth chocolate L, people do think badmouthing chocolate L. But the reality is I heard last week that this coq head Oscar de LA weirdo talking shit that aren't any place to tell guys when to retire. It sounds like he's been hanging out with Trump. And that's that's like a classic Trump phrase right there. Dana white you can you can point to a lot of times. Dana white might have done something wrong. But the chocolate del thing. He like Chuck Ladele should not have fought this time in he sh- was getting knocked out every fight before. He got he retired and data white made him retire. You that was a bad fight. I that was about fight. I saw the highlights. I was like, oh that was I I don't know why. Yeah. Everybody was just saying they only got paid based off of pay per view. Oh, really? Yeah. Do the do. Okay. I don't share. Shame on anyone who promoted that fight. Agreed. Whoops. Agreed. It was just a big. I was like, oh, whoops big circle. Not know really should brush up on my MA on my cool thrown is NFL touchdown dances. Their back. I feel like they've made a huge comeback this year celebration. Yes. Have been so often. Yep. So awesome. Do they almost died to feel like they were? They were all Presley debt, right where they were outlawed for a while. You couldn't have like two guys being happy together. But it's been like next like a guy and a dog being happy to the free. Throw the limbo the bears doing the Motown like there's been a ton of really good ones. Even just in the last week. Yeah. Well, so the new hotness is on defense. If you get interception return zone you go to the end zone. Then you do oppose for picture. I feel like we need to institute more of a some regulations on that one because I'm sick of every single time having a picture in the end zone. Oh, no. I like it made me a grumpy old man only when you're winning. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Good point definitely fair. Okay. My hot seat. I have two of you're on ecstasy. Then he. Yeah. Out of a penis pipe. My my first hotseat is I take the program. I guess that will Cain and Stephen a Smith got some major beef going on and Damien Woody went after Baker Mayfield on I take in our guy. Baker Mayfield went back and said, I guess he said something like, oh you transferred and Baker responded on Instagram story, not even comparable. I didn't lose thirty plus games be fake in the do that. I wasn't going to have a scholarship. Good. Try though, buddy. Now, we are part of the Baker crew, we defend our guys so Damien Woody urine idiot. Yeah. Hey damien. Remember when you basically quit on the biggest loser. And then you tried to come back. Remember that true? Yeah. Tam you ever watch that show telvision? Yeah. It was a big on the television. Yeah. It was it was on the TV. It was like one of the channels. Yeah. My other hot seat is apologies because Big Ben is not doing them. And in an all time. Big Ben quote ahead. Yeah. He said, I'm not going to apologize for. Any of my interceptions because sometimes those things happen. I'm a quarterback that is going to go out and sling it, and he you tell you talk about gunslinger, whatever you wanna talk about. I'm not gonna worry about interceptions. I hate doing them. They bother me. But I'm gonna go out and play my game. And try to help us win football games. Don't apologize. Ben, Ben the question was about the patriots. Yeah. I'm just not gonna apologize. Talk about my interceptions. I'm not gonna polish no knocking apologize for them. My cool thrown is millennials so us because they now have monopoly for millennials. They have created monopoly. Formal any all's in it is absolutely ridiculous the pieces. So the monopoly man is on the cover. He has a Starbucks Cup. He has I think Google glasses. He's listening to something on these things. Lineas love. Yeah. And he's taking a selfie. And so the they said monopoly for millennials the game the box of the game show. So it's has all that stuff. Says the tagline reads forget real estate you can't afford it. Anyway, adulting is hard you deserve a break from the rat race and rather than winning by collecting the most money the game prompts players click experiences so visiting a friend's couch. What the fuck is at falling asleep. Yeah. Passing going to vegan bistro hitting a week long meditation retreat. This is the worst thing ever whoever came up with this. That's not raw is all the stuff. You're reading right now. That's just what happens if you go to jail, right? Yeah. It's it's it's real Hank. I'm reading it on fortune dot com. So unless they got got what what are they like the park place and boardwalk squares. I don't know the fire fest. No, coachella. It's Cajal fire fest. Think it's it's finding yourself at burning man. Yeah. Yeah. The this is just the dumbest thing ever though. And I guess millennials are mad which you know, what millennials don't get mad as being as an elder millennial. Just let it they want you to get mad. They want to trigger try and trigger. Don't let it happen. I wonder what the pieces are with the game piece. Probably Nava KADO we need to probably check that one right off the list, we need to find we need to we need to buy this your parents car. That's nothing. Yeah. No. It's it's the actual board game will then that's not from a lineal then. Yeah, they should just make it an app. Yeah. Let me streamline that process for you. Just make it a fucking app. Vegan vegan can't selling vegan candles, your side-hustle, whether your lifestyle blogger emoji love earlier, you make your side-hustle sewing, vegan vegan candles monopoly from lenses for you. Who eats candles? Why would you need candles? No. Because the key. I think candles like you can't use. There's some comes wax. Yes. Something like butter. It's butter. Yeah. That's Hanks right is butter butter candles. Yeah. Right. Butter doesn't come from animals. That's actually, we should definitely do Casals give it those beeswax, which is what he's you can't do beeswax candles lie because the hurts the bee's to make wax. Yes. Because you're because you're saying you're stealing their honeycomb. You're making them jerk off nonstop. Yeah. You just you just can't you little UK? You cannot do that Milan monopoly. Maybe that's why her dying at enlarging rate because we take all their come. That's true. They can't impregnate each other. It's very sad piece. Fucking suck. I hate people. Who like, oh, if you bees in the who fucking ecosystem falls, listen, I don't want be just go around distinct people. I don't want to slut. Shame B's. But the Queen is getting real out by everyone. Yeah. Like every Lisa envy, every single male be is cook. Yeah. It's I mean, it's talk about somebody who wants to end your television. He's crazy. Yeah. Why not? And I'm sure they could make Honey some sometime someplace else, right? Sure. You can make McDonald's definitely doesn't use bees. Honey. Right. They I kind of Honey that they use can use fly pictured. Honey, it's actually it's actually rat piss. They just quite quagmire late it and the Honey. Okay. That is our hotseat cool. Thrones. Let's do the interview with hall of fame backup quarterback Matt Flynn. By the way, we forgot to ask him. Why all quarterbacks are mate. Matt, oh, good point in Saint Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford liner Shabaab Matt castle castle mammoth glowing Matt McLaughlin. Mattie. Mock, Mattie, mock, mass mog all time electric name, Mattie. Mock what else anyone Barkley Matt Barkley could call? Yeah. Call fuck. So name your kid, Matt. Yeah, he'll be more be rich. Although Matt liner Matt Ryan did we remember? Yeah. Yeah. No. I said my line Leonard. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Before we get to him though, cash up the cash app, you know, it it's our favorite you already know the cash up number one app in finance. 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And you could tell me if this -fensive backup quarterback legend, Matt Flynn is that an offensive them to say, I don't think that's offensive. I mean anything to legend in it is. Okay. My button. Yeah. You were really. I think when we did the mount Rushmore of backup quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. I'm pretty sure that we put you on. Yeah. And I think you are not. Yeah. You look like Matt Damon put this isn't because you look like MAC. And I know you do look like Matt Damon? And I think the you are basically from the movie what's that movie called with identity? No. With Ben Affleck. Why am I good will hunting? I don't know why I just blanked on that right there. I'm I'm I'm getting nervous. But you are basically the guy who got out of out of dodge. You know what I mean? Like, you got the big contract the backup legend on-track. So I pack a good thing. I think it's a great thing to say. Fool them just long enough. Is that what you're saying? No, it's not it's not that. And that's a classic backup quarterback thing of you to say is always be like a little humble, not wanna be like, you know, what they are. The great backup quarterback is an alpha beta. So like the king of the betas. Meaning like, you can't nobody wants to have a backup quarterback sitting behind him in that quarterback room that comes in and thinks that they're hot shit starts throwing stuff around telling people what to do they want like a good person that they can, you know, stay loose with that will be able to come in and and kind of tread water. And and help the team out in the event of an emergency. And I think that does take a special set of skills, and it does take like that says skills to be able to stick around for as long as you did in the league. So I don't think when we say, we're not saying it as a pejorative. We're actually were impressed with with your career, and what you've done, but there was a big debate that we had on last week show and. And we were trying to get to the bottom of what is the Matt Flynn game. And I think most listeners out there note, we're talking about you had a couple of great games in Green Bay at the end that one year when Aaron Rodgers got a little dinged up. So we need to ask you in your mind. What is our what was the Matt Flynn game? Well, I think I I would assume that most people probably said it was the winds game. Yup. In two thousand eleven. Posers last week tried to try to do what Stafford I did on Monday night football last week, but probably a little bit short. But I don't know. I think to me about my my favorite game that I ever played in besides the national championship game. When I was a few was in two thousand thirteen when I came back to Green Bay after a couple of a couple of steps and couple of other teams that I've visited for a little bit. And I beat the Cowboys, and we had a we had a big time comeback. And I grew up a cavalry fan. I grew up about like our half away from Dallas, my whole family was there, and it was kind of a cool little redemption game for me, you know, skipping around two thousand Seattle and Oakland and buffalo that I got to go back home to Green Bay. And but we have co game. We I think we were down twenty twenty three or twenty four points going into the third quarter and had a call. Title comeback. Okay. Okay. Favorite one? Okay. So in nowhere was that the the the game the night game against patriots. So PF t you have been proven wrong from Matt Flynn himself, so lit, wait. Wait, give a chance to address that. Well, I mean, he said the first thing he's probably was the lions game on yard six. Touchdown. He probably forgot. And even if you didn't forget I'd like to hear from from that what was that game? Like, what would that game into you? Now that was a cool game because we did go toe to toe with with a third Tom Brady. And it was a night game. I start. So, you know, no one really knew if I could play in the NFL, I guess at that point. So I got I start air was concussed that game that they have a damn Dan Connolly returned the kickoff or godly amount of yards which pissed me off ROY. But that was that was probably like the that meant a lot to me as far as. Confidence go that I guess a an NFL quarterback and teammates proven to them and proven to the coaches jacket step into the spotlight and play if I had to. So for me for the confidence of I guess that was that was probably the biggest game. Obviously the lions game at eleven was the best for vestment Bank account. Yes. That's a math Lynn game. So as a backup quarterback we love backup quarterbacks. You know? It's always fun to be like, oh, well that guy if he can get in do you when you're standing on the sideline or when you were standing on the sideline and your NFL career? We you like oh shit. I don't wanna get in. Or were you always waiting and ready to go? There was one time where I was like oh shit. I don't want to go in. It was at my last stop. But I was playing for the saints in two thousand and and fifteen and it was a Monday. I think it was a Monday either Sunday or Monday night game against the Panthers. And it was I think my second week there and the things that got pretty intricate offense. They have a different snap count than I'd ever that have ever used any of us. Stop a of a second week. And I was a backup and drew never let are. At least when I was there. Didn't let the backup quarterback take any practice reps. So I've never even called the real snap count in practice. And I'd never called a play in the huddle. All it did when I was there was go and do the do the warm up. And then I would do the I'd run the scout team kart it plays. What I was there. So I never got the running off into play. And he ends up getting plantar fasciitis in the second or third quarter of that game. And the doctors looking better start warming up and I'm like oh shit. I don't even know what the snap count is in this game. I don't really want to go in the game. There's a lot of people watching us on. But it ended up he he ended up going out there and and toughen it out and play him played out the way out the rest of the year. But I would have just had to draw back and just ahead on Switzerland. Then flying the thing, I guess, I don't know what I would have done. Did you ever take special notice of the weird stance that drew Brees gets into in the huddle where you kind of drops halfway to one knee when he calls the play out? That's probably what else worried most about is. Like, do I have to emulate Jerusalem? I go into the huddle on you know, he's got these. He's got a very specific skill set of body language to use it in the game on the sideline of the huddle. I don't know if I can emulate that exactly. My my my game was different injuries. Yeah. Yeah. We'll we'll get to some of the past stuff in a second. But news just came across the wire here. Andy Dalton is out for the year. So they've got Tom savage. They've got Jeff Driscoll Cincinnati. Are we officially saying that Matt Flynn is retired? Those words have never come out of my mouth. But it was pretty clear to me that the NFL is telling me it was and I got my severance check in the mail. Toby retired. I can still swing it a little bit. Do you want to retire right now? What do you want to retire on on our show? Well, it it's hard to because I I do I have watched some quarterback play and they'll go out and throw by interceptions that I'm sitting there watching the game. Like man, I could have done that right, man. So are you are you physically? Can we say that you are showing interest in the Cincinnati job? No, I'm I'm I'm pretty good. I I got a I got a pretty good with dad by. So I don't know if I could do it make that more declared it for us either retired. Don't don't be pretty much done. Come on. Come on Marvin this thing, right? Okay. All right, fine, fine, fine. As long as you. If you get a call just tell me first, and then we can report it. So it's funny that the whole Matt Flynn conversation randomly came up last week. And we have you on because you actually are you know, you know, better than anyone maybe the Mike McCarthy Aaron Rodgers relationship that has now become like the central point of the Packers season in the NFL season. What do you think's going on up there? Do you think they're just not seeing eye to eye? Did you ever see anything like that? I'm never did. Erin, as you know, Aaron is a very hated extremely competitive guy. Chip on his shoulder a guy he's always played like that. What I mean, he still carries? The check around the shoulder that you know, he didn't get off by Pete Carroll or he had to go to junior college. He carries all these things. And I think that's a pretty big attribute for a lot of athletes and especially the quarterback position. But as far as the McCarthy in Rogers debate that's going on that. I'm hearing a lot. I'm never. Really saw any of that. There's always gonna be some a little bit of animosity here. When when you start losing, so people he question everything. And sure, I'm sure errands. Complained about play Colin here there for an entire career. But what quarterback hasn't to play collar? Yeah. Know they've had a lot of success together. Now, an oil and water kind of relationship. Now, I don't really know Erna still talk. But you know, we don't really get into the weeds about you know, how them organization is doing and how him and Mike's relationship is. But man, it's something's got something's going on over there. And something's gotta be fixed or change because they're they they've. I found a way to kind of gonna squander some of his prime years of of one of the best quarterbacks. Yeah. I don't know. I wish I could give you a little bit better dependent evanger break some news for you. But I can't run. No. That's that's I mean, that's a fair answer. I mean, I think I think what you said. I mean, did you ever have a situation where you know, you could see that the quarterback in the head coach where maybe not getting along. And it wasn't a bad thing. It was just kind of a reality of. Hey, look people work around, you know, you people working in a cube right now. They don't love their boss all the time. Did you ever have a situation like that where that could be what's going on right now? Green bay. Yeah. I think you see that a lot of. I mean, there's been there's been a little bit of stuff leak in the last couple of years that would lead you to believe that from you know, them not telling them Aaron about, you know, firing that the quarterback coach are letting them go the quarterback coach that he was he was close to and not letting them be part of the new quarterback hiring process. They just some little things that kind of leak out Green Bay does a really good job of keeping everything pretty tight in that organization. They keep everything inside the walls. They're not a lot gets out. I'm it's not a big market of their immediate market. So there's a lot of stuff that they can they can kind of they can kind of keep in house there as that's why you don't get a lot. But you can kind of start connecting some dots that there's got there's got to be something a little bit deeper than what we see. We can we get out and it showed up on the field. And you know, I don't think you can point and say like, oh, it's Mike Macau. Follow on air Rogers filed or it's their you know, they have a splinter relationship because not every head coach loves every player. Not every quarterback was his head coach. And it's not I don't think it would be anything out of the realm of possibility. But I can't I can't confirm or deny it. But it certainly not the first time and something like that would have happened. And there's been a lot of successful teams where you know. I'm sure that the the star player didn't love his head coach. But I'm not I don't know. I wish I wish. I did. Yeah. That's fair. Did you see this tweet from we'll Blackmon last night? He said when I was on the Packers in two thousand eight we lost four straight road games. Every time we lost coach McCarthy made sure each hotel got worse. He said if you wanna stay in a nice hotel win a damn game one hotel Jackson. I swear on at I forty eight. Is that true? Did you guys every time you were on the road, and maybe not winning or playing well the hotel? Would get progressively worse. You know, what we were terrible into rookie year, helix six and ten we were awful. I can't I don't remember the hotel story. But I do remember the Super Bowl year. And then the the the year after the Super Bowl in two thousand eleven we were fifteen and one in the regular season. I remember did matter if we were going to Chicago, which was like a thirty minute flight or we go to the west coast. We have like the biggest three row plane that we could get the nicest plane, then the years that we've not been as good. We just had the standard seven forty seven. Whatever it is the three three it wasn't. It wasn't really nice playing. But when we were winning man, we had those like touchscreens on every head rest, and we could watch movies. Look at do whatever we wanted them those point. That's funny. I remember specifically the hotel, so that's a good motivator. She'd be like, hey, win a game in in all star treat you with some luxury. Every one hundred percent like nicer restaurants. It's a little things that really like when your day is so regimented that you only have a couple of variables from day to day is those small things that actually do make you feel better or worse. Oh, it's the little things when you have a monotony of a sixteen game season. It is definitely the little things that get you through keeps you sane. So especially when you live in Green Bay, it's dark when you go to work it starting to like eight or nine in the winter. It's dark again like at three in the afternoon. You never see the light a day when you work in Green Bay for the last six or seven weeks of the season. Yeah. He got gas Bill electronically. No heat for you. Yeah. If you don't win. Challenge it. So you played with Aaron Rodgers. But you also played with Tom Brady for looks like about sixty or sixty two days in two thousand fifteen who's the goat Brady. Rodgers man. That's a tough question. I think from talent level definitely air Nevada. Guys, insanely talented. And he's got a photographic memory, which not many people know about him. But it's hard to argue when Brady can just wear to fistfuls rings argue that I gotta tell you that I feel like drew Brees has got to be in the conversation. We are doing. Yeah. Gotta feel like you've got to be in the conversation. Kobe guy to are you going to do that? You're going to be like I'll give the third answer. So that everyone can can I don't have to be held to this. Does that was a good little tactic? I use. They're just because my personal relationship. Aaron Rodgers about that why I'm looking through the list, and it just happens you played with all three of those guys. Could could we say that you're the good luck charm for quarterbacks? There's no question about it. I really felt like all their careers kind of gone downhill since I left true. Yes. Yeah. That's true. Funny. I did I I got a little Cup of coffee there in New England. That was when Tom Brady got his his deflate gate suspension. His four-game suspension handed down of actually, oh, you're on a family vacation in Italy. And I got a call from agent saying, hey, they wanna they wanna sign in New England. And for the bring you for those four games backup Garoppolo and so that had to fly straight from Italy the New England at that point. So that was a that was an interesting story but pump and a hamstring getting cut real fast. So yeah, it happens. Shit happens. Aaron Rodgers when he does that little photo bomb thing before games, be honest. It's fucking lame. Do not lame. I did a lot of photo bombs with them. Okay early. Yeah. You're lame to. That that's what we're talking about. It's the little things like that. Even even matter how lame they are it makes if it gets you through the day a little bit. It's it's okay. All right. Can we talk a little LSU football because we are big coach. Oh, guys eve would you before the games when you were in college would less miles like come up to you with a grin and be like, hey, here's a trick. Play. I'm going to do in the third quarter that everyone knows about to do definitely work. This is the play of the fourth quarter. Yeah. You know, he he never did that he he kept a lot of things to it like inside. He never liked. Let us share a whole whole lot. We would give him a lot of opinions and thoughts, and he was like, yeah, that's cool. But we're gonna do it this way. And I'll tell you why. But we always got to we always worked out a trick play like the day before like on the Friday through. We'd always do some stupid trick play that we would never run. But he was just literally just draw something up on the board. We do it at a Wachter never really got called. But we the the fake field goal that Iran and those several where a tossed it behind my head the kicker and he scored test out of get South Carolina. We're actually worked on that play for two years. More ever called in the game. So we we had that little that little play. We have that in our back pocket for a long time. And we were so excited when he finally called it. But nothing it was fun playing for playing for him. I know his time towards the end got a little bit. You know, his due date was up at LSU, but I'm a vile fan, man. I I don't have any reason not to be. I want wanna championship with him. And I know that there's a little bit little bit hot and cold LSU fans towards the end, and rightfully so. But everything has an expiration day and his his time had come was there anytime when there's one play in particular. I'm thinking of I think it was against Auburn is back in two thousand seven I believe where less miles went full less miles with his clock management and just like completely disregarded time and space, and he had you like hike the ball with a second left on the clock when he should have called a time out like thirty seconds. I forget the exact circumstance. But you pulled a horseshoe out of your ass. Scored a touchdown on it. Do you? Remember like walking through that that final drive thinking to yourself like what is less doing with the clock. You probably some of the the criticism. He gets probably some of that should have been on me a little bit. I probably waited a little too long to snap that ball that. We he had called it. We were down. I think we if we would have kicked a field goal to tie it. I believe I think it's what it was. And it was third down. They called they called just really base play. Like a max protection, double verticals. And so they called it on new what they called it for if I get man must take a shot. If I get Joan dropped back throw it away. We'll kick a field goal. Bubba blah. So I kind of took my I took time a little bit more than last probably wanted to which kind of which kind of added to the kind of the legend that is miles though, the clock management, and the quirkiness is all part of the via the love for less miles at LSU, which ended up being the eight for less miles towards the end. But you know, for some reason will must have his defense. The coordinator at that time at Auburn. He comes out and displaced by single high man by stupidest call it ever seen. I'm licking their presence. So I just dropped back. And we take a shot if they would just by cover to just dropped back. I would have dropped back and thrown it out of bound. We would have kicked Phil. But I think the guy that was keeping the clock that day was a little excited. He didn't stop it for like a second or two after he caught it. So it made it a little bit more dramatic. I should have been, but they're still. Yeah. There was a second left on the clock after that play. What's the hardest place to play in the SEC like loudest crowd that maybe we wouldn't think of people are gonna say Alabama because there are always good. But what what's the place that? You're like, man. This was a tough place to play. When I when when I was playing there. Auburn is always hard to play. We never played a college station on. No that's hard to play. Now. We've ended up owing out Mississippi State must senior year in Mississippi State. But I know for a fact that it's a hard place play. Now, we we we we killed the crowd real early that year, no seven, but they have that cowbell thing going on. And I know that place gets pretty rowdy, and nobody likes to go to starkville anyway, but I think that's kind of a really hard place the play right now. So, but I could be cliche and say like Alabama LSU or Florida of a, but I think I think starkville is is sneaky ARD. Okay. So in in that two thousand seven season you guys got back into the national championship game because of an unfortunate day by. One of our good friends and former former colleague Pat McAfee when he was kicking out West Virginia. I think he missed a coupla inside like thirty five yards. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Remember that? We watching that game live. We were we actually we were flying back from that speech. I tip where we'd be Tennessee. And it was right after the week the week prior is where we lost Arkansas whilst their number one spot. We were five back in. I believe it was the West Virginia Pitt game going on. And then I believe it was Kansas date and Oklahoma. Maybe there was another game going on that needed debt on our in our favor and the pilot kept coming on coming on the speaker on the plane and giving us a score update. And he came on and told us that West Virginia had lost. And we all started celebrating on the plane. And I don't know if the pilot was celebrating or what the hell he was doing. He hit a button and up there in the cockpit and the plane just dropped for like, ten seconds. The plane was falling out of the sky. I don't know what happened. But. We're we just we went from celebrating to everyone's a screaming like oh shit and Mike hitting the ground and stuff like that. So we got back up and death ourselves off and celebrate a little bit more. But that I'll never forget that because it was like in session celebration thought we were going to die. Then we'll go back to celebrate in two thousand seven was. I mean, I think most people would agree was like the craziest college football season of all time you guys one as to you lost twice both times in triple overtime. Right. And you still won the national championship. Like there was that was a season where every every time a team got ranked. They would just lose and like Illinois went to the Rose Bowl. And all this weird stuff and like Nick Sabin wasn't exceeding yet. And all this weird shit happened. And you guys somehow survive the mess of that season. Crazy, I don't know the real fast behind it. But I think I think the number one team that year lost like seven or eight times and number two team off like. Eight or nine times or something like that insane. Yeah. Every time because we we got ranked number one twice that year. And then got beat the following week in triple overtime. Yeah. Did you ever get a chance to say we were undefeated regulation? Yeah. That's true. Good point, very good, spins on how how intimidating jamarcus Russell arm. Oh scary. I actually saw that guy. This is this is no joke. I went to so by he was in street clothes we were walking like leaving practice or leaving meetings for the day. He was in the indoor facility picked up a ball and threw it ninety yards. No that doesn't seem realistic. But he took ninety yards in street. Clothes. I'd never seen anything like it stories of him. Throwing it seventy arts from his knees. And all that stuff. It's like a once in a lifetime arm, obviously didn't work out for him in the NFL. But I couldn't I can only imagine like going to LSU as a freshman and be like that's the like I that's that guys in front of me. Yeah. Well, the pro- the problem was so we we were in the same signing class together out of high school. So we we went to both game della shoot. Oh, three we both red shirted. So my entire career. I get this like this label on me as Evan a week arm. This quote, unquote game manager kind of a weak arm. Kind of accurate, and is like shorter intermediate throws can't fill a deep, blah. And I'm sitting there like say, hey, man. I feel like I got a pretty good arm. Right. You know, I've competed with what's best guys come out of high school, and and these college camps and things like that. And I feel like a stack up pretty well against them. But I'm throwing right here against Marcus Russell, who's like flicking his wrist, and it's gone sixty yards. And I'm just like I I got Baynes in my neck and popping out about four. Ed trying to like match them in practice and. And so that was kind the stigma got and it was pretty much because jamarcus Russell. So I can I can blame that on him that I got this week arm stigma going on. So I want to jump back to to your professional career for a little bit. So after after the Matt Flynn game, which is still up for debate. We're not sure exactly which one that is. But after the Matt Flynn game, you get a nice little contract from the Seattle Seahawks. And you go in there. I my guess is that you presume that you would be the starter. When you got the contract how long into that first training camp where you're like, you know, this Russell Wilson kid might be pretty good. Yeah. Man is really annoying is is very wasn't there. And obviously went there with the mind for thousands of stars. I mean, I was I'd never was told by Seattle. Like, hey, we're going to give you the keys in the car. You're you're gonna have to compete, though, of all that kind of Carol carols mantra is competition. But I didn't think I really thought the competition between me tomorrow Jackson at the time. Who was the the start of the previous year? He was still there. A man. I don't know. We went to training camp it we would split three days. So like the first day training camp tomorrow ago, the Vons the next day. I would go the next they wrestle with Joe. And it went like that for a long time. And yeah, it was really good. I could see that. He was a playmaker. Still never really thought to my mind out. He's gonna feed me out as a rookie after they brought me in here. I didn't really think is gonna happen. Obviously, obviously did and I was pretty I was pretty pissed at the time. But I guess I guess it's worked out for the Seahawks. He's he's he's done. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I it's easier to like sit back as an as as a competitor. You always think of the best right? And you can be compatible shit all the time. And but I guess it is a little bit better to sit back and be like, all right? Well, he's he's turned out to be a really good quarterback for a long time. I didn't get beat out by some chance that lasted a year. Yeah. You didn't. Yeah. You can compete out by tomorrow Jackson that would have that would have been a blow. I still think I was playing my best football when I was up there too. Which was really pissed me off. Then I went to the next year, I'm playing football ever. But anyway, but you are now that I'm thinking are you really are the good luck charm for starting quarterbacks? Russell wilson. Drew Brees Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers. I mean, that's kind of a ridiculous list of guys that you backed up. I I didn't do a really good job when I played for the the raiders bills jets, though, didn't do very no. We don't have to talk about that. Yeah. We don't talk about. So I have one last question is see key question promo code take put in promo code taking ten dollars off seek purchase. So you have a career that like you said in Seattle, you frustrated because you thought you're playing your best football, you you, you wanna national championship you you were a backup in the NFL for, you know, a lot of years you made some good money. Do you consider yourself like you consider your career in the NFL success or how do you look at that? Because obviously from where we're sitting it was a wild success. Like you got to play in the NFL for a long time. Made a ton of money. But I understand the other side where you're talking about how you're a competitive guy and want to compete. I look at it as as a success because if you statistically, it was successfully look at all the people that don't make it any of the average in the NFL, I guess three point three years or whatever. So from you know, financial standpoint from like a making it out of the NFL without any serious injuries. Quite a long time getting good retirement benefits stuff successful. Right. Had some success. That's a really great games. And I think that I I got definitely got a lot of breaks. I mean, a lot of timing wise, and a lot of the NFL is time anyways. But a lot of the time he stuff definitely went my way. But also caught a custom fabrics along the way. So when you when you even those things out I was in a good place when I retired. I I wasn't when I stopped playing. I wasn't mad about I know a lot of guys. Up there that when when they just can't they can't get rid of that bug once they're not playing anymore. They they think about it all the time. They like I'm gonna go try Canada. I'm going to do this. And they'll do whatever I can't get back. Like, I was in a good place. When I when I when I left the game would I still like to be playing do I think that I could have been a contributor for a longer than I was absolutely. I could have are at least in my mind when he them, I'm either, you know. Dumb or stubborn or competent. I don't know. What it what it is? It's probably all about the same thing. When you think about it? But I definitely think that I could. In parts of my career when I was playing really well, but a successful starter. And then certainly been been around the lakes a lot warmer than it was. But I wanna give place not laugh so to me success. But I there was some stones that I never got to turn over. Yeah. And and you are on the mount Rushmore of backup quarterback, even that's you sit on Ashqout who else is on that. No, Rushmore, probably I guess, Charlie white horse. Charlie. I assume that we put him on. I think Chaz batch might have been on there. I can't remember who else we had on there were pulled up right now. But it was high Lord Louis list. Yeah. Kyle in the but it was a good list of guys that. Wentworth says name now. Yeah. That is good name for like a bar. But it's it's it's like a weird the backup quarterback is a weird spot to be in pro sports because people kind of know you especially most of the guys were backup quarterbacks were successful in college, obviously and people knew them there. And then they go to the NFL. And there's always this like it's this weird intrigue. I think with backup quarterbacks like could they do it, you know, and you did it a couple times especially to Matt Flynn game against the lions four hundred yards. Six touchdowns not to brag that is the Matt Flynn game. So I think there's there's this weird. What if that hangs over a lot of backup quarterbacks heads, and I think you kind of described it perfectly just now gather there is definitely that. Whatever certainly arrests at teams take when there's a bring a backup in at the starter by the room of basic vessel. And it's been proven to be unsuccessful as well. As just a. I've seen a lot of really good players on it. Not just at the quarterback position. I've seen some really really good players. Never make it team or never get the opportunity to show people. Whether there's on the right team or they get an injury or they just they're behind someone really good. And I've also seen some not very good players play a long time the NFL. So it's all it's certainly circumstance. And you gotta be putting the right situation. You have to have people in your corner that allow you to have mistakes, certainly when you're a backup. And you go to being that starter you are in his awarded as many mistakes as you are as a first or second round guy coming out of college. Yeah. I have one last question. I was going to go you go. I was just going to say that like a little sliding doors moment there if you had been like drew Brees when you were in Seattle, then maybe Russell Wilson would never have gotten that starting job because he wouldn't let them take those reps that super bear. And you probably would have went because you wouldn't have thrown an interception on the two yard line. Yeah. We we met at one three or four Super Bowls and wrote for sure. Was there? My last question is was there ever a moment where you said yourself when you were in Green Bay. Okay. Brett farve hall of Famer then passes it off to Aaron Rodgers hall of Famer then passes off to Matt flim Flynn future hall of Famer did you ever let yourself think that? I would have if it's been really old before we got past me. I think errands like a year and a half old of the male k well, you know, what I mean? Yeah. Gotta wait around. But cool, you know? I did make fun of aired a lot after my game at eleven saying that just basically crushes records. Yeah. He's including. This tied it by how do you? How do you a year or two later through four hundred eight yards? How do you throw for yard Lasser board? I know why. I know why I think it was against Marc Trestman spares that Sunday night football game where he likes had four touchdowns in the first half. And it was a video game. And that sucked. The that's he sees not a good guy. Aaron Rogers come on. Oh, it's I'm talking about. I'm talking to never like him. I gotcha. Yeah. You're talking to bear. Just finally let you finally I'm just going to be open about it. And I hate them. That's okay. That's okay. You'll have to like everybody. True. I'll tell you. What? I do. I love you guys. I volley yet. I to go big fans. I started listening. You got last year. It was probably some of the best sports journalists out ever seen or heard during the draft last year. He goes, I write draft covers brilliant. Nice day too. So create the opportunity to come on the show and spend a lot of fun belts. Yeah. Thanks. I think on against them. Yeah. I think that was the first person who's ever talked themselves off the show in such an eloquent manner. That was unbelievable. What you just did? Good. That's the alpha beta pack of type. Oh, yeah. Damn. All right. I'll let you guys go. I met Flynn. Thank you so much. Appreciate it, man. And hopefully, we'll talk soon. That interview is also brought to you by four him. Did you guys know that sixty six percent of dudes start to lose their hair by age thirty five, and when you start to notice that it's gone that it's going it's too late to do anything about it. Unless you check out for him. If that hairline is slowly starting move back. He if you're seeing some bald spots, how are you going to feel a year from now if it's business as usual, probably pretty bad. 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And then he also today tweeted out that the Browns signed Ruben foster so someone in the Browns organization is fucking with Matt or sorry, Adam Schefter match after Maddie chef way, better of a quarterback, very way better athlete. Yes. So obviously, it's pointing to I would say Dorsey towards it. Because this house just be Baker. This hasn't happened in past years. Yeah. Like, we haven't seen anybody. That's like that gets football in the Browns organization that knows it. Well enough to be like, hey, maybe we should try to find out Herat is. So that's what sounds like to me. Like John's like going one by one through is less. Maybe it's moose UAB is maybe smooths the dog here. Go go along with me here for second Baker Mayfield. We went into the Cleveland Browns facility, we told him. Listen, we got your back you got ours. Was he done since? He's been tipping off Adam Schefter with fake shit and making them look like an idiot because he knows. Yeah. We got a little rivalry with the p man. Yeah. That's true. Boy p maybe he's been going. Yeah. I liked that. I liked that idea a lot. Maybe it's Joe Thomas Joe Thomas he left the team year ago. He's just make up. He's got a lot of time on his hands either way schefters taken, smells, he has taken some else. And I don't know how he recovers from this. I think he just probably stops tweeting. Yeah. Just probably. Yeah. Just tweeted he'll do is. He'll go to ESPN stats and info ask him for like a weird stat for this Thursday night game. And then just totally take somebody else's work tweet that fun stat about this. And that'll throw people off the track does also it's going to be basketball season soon. So oh, yeah. No what he really will do his he'll confirm someone else's report working to confirm their report. Yes. Because no other reporter knows how to confirm report he's he's also big on inserting himself into scoops. Oh, yeah. Where it's like per mort and me. Yes. Oh, yeah. You gotta know. Meaning I overheard more. It's conversation. The. Bathroom. Yeah. I was taking shit. I heard him. I have Moore's phone taps yet. And I'm reading all his text messages, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. We have a PR one to one for Reggie Bush now Reggie Bush. What was the exact tweet that he threw out there? So I don't have the exact we pulled up right now. But he was saying that he's been consuming. A lot of new information about how vaccines might not be good for you. And he went to Twitter and was like, hey Twitter. What do you guys think about this about maybe vaccines being bad? And he said he was watching on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's where you get to good advice, Hank. Yeah. As as mega, Hank. I would assume that you would know that he said when when did you get red pill tank? Well, yeah. Okay. Reggio? He doesn't take vaccines. Yeah. Reggie's getting red build. It's it's wild at people. I mean, these people they realize how much they're fucking it up for everyone else. All the other kids get fucked up because you know, someone kid doesn't get vaccinated. Here you go Reggie on terms. You can understand if Kim Kardashian had gotten the Gardasil vaccine, then your dick wouldn't look like a call flour. There we go. I also appreciate Reggie Bush at least having the he was nice enough to be like, here's a discussion. I'm thinking about fam- and not be like declared of statement like let's just asking questions. He's actually using Twitter for exactly what it should be useful. Like, let's learn some more together. Let me hear what the people have to say. And people people responded, they were they were ready to go been keeping up. I know the truth. You've asked questions is all I don't even know what the fuck that means. This is I know the truth. No, yes. Someone replied to that with him. I made this is. Okay. Regio some great replies. In their one lady. That was like I've got three kids. Eighteen thirteen and nine and none of them were getting vaccinated. It's like, well, you probably already did. Yeah. That's probably well, you get vaccinate when you're like a little baby very small. Yeah. When you really have the right? Yes. Like circumcision those weirdos who don't circumcise wait what it takes away fourteen essential functions from your peanuts. Oh, have you ever talked to one of those guys? I didn't I have not lot of addict talk on the show. I have enlightening conversation. We have a new segment new segment alert. Hey, play the sound. Does PF Teehankee plays sound? Please sound Hake. The new segments to it. I'm supposed to do. Some yet. You're supposed to make it up right now. Nailed it. I actually I think my favorite news time. At Hank's done is the stats and info department. Yeah. That's it really gives us that. Really? Well, I'm not going to do that. Hey spent the most time we had a new can you look how many new segments we've had? One. Okay. So new segment alert. It's called click for more now PF to you explain which one this is actually I think we're gonna hit on some gold here. Because we the parallel thought you explain it to me. I was like, dude. I do this all the guests. So explain it. All right. So have you ever been to a website, and you scroll down just past the end of the article before it's right after the comments section. Yes. Which is where all the real news happens anyways. But you get right below that. And they're all these weird targeted ads that are just really fucked up and make no sense whatsoever. And you wonder who in the world clicks on these? Yeah. Well, we do we do click Clinton allot because they're so stupid. And there was a great one that was on Yahoo. This is pointed out by been cou from awful announcing it this was about our good, friend recurring guests the program. Joe buck okay on Yahoo. You scroll down to the bottom the sponsored link. Here is Joe buck pauses on air makes huge announcement to fame broadcaster is in hot water with FOX after he stops calling a game to make a wild confession. Am I going to click on that? You're absolutely right. You are. So what happened? So takes you to the article Joe buck now nearly fifty has always been seen as a straight talking hall of fame broadcaster, even as one of the most prominent faces in media, he still doesn't hold back when discussing all topics especially his personal life spent to get using. However, his latest comments have even made FOX's sponsors uneasy. But cause havoc last week when he revealed his new erectile dysfunction cure during a live broadcast of NFL on FOX. He did quote, I have done my research and spoke into specialists and industry insiders about the topic. Fuck mentioned on the show, and they helped us create this product HD test. Oh, and mate. Can I tell you? That's how you know. It's r-. Yup. And mate. Can I tell you this stuff is very potent? I've tried Viagra. I've tried to two dollar fill. Okay. But that sounds like a great name for a pill that gives you Boehner and just go to fill. I've tried Seattle full. Yeah. HD Tesco blows them all away. Wow. So Joe buck care to come on the podcast to discuss your experience with HD Testa listen ever, if you don't click on these I was telling you PF d I got into a rabbit hole. The other day some kid in Iowa built a house in his backyard, seventy five square feet. It was fucking fascinating. And I found it because I clicked on this like you'll never believe what this kid in Iowa. Like the youngest homeowner ever. Yeah. I mean, it was a little shitty shack. But man, it was cool. All these fake stores. They're so awesome. So it goes on. So Viagra Cialis were furious as they do much of their marketing on FOX's platforms calling for his apology and for removing him. From Fox Sports play by play programming. House is not a bigger story. Those companies thought buck was going to back down. They clearly didn't know the type of man that he is he appeared again when TMZ caught up to him the following week, not to apologize, but to offer viewers free samples, I won't let anyone intimidate me. He said during his appearance, I'm so confident in the product, I'm offering it to the viewers for free H E Tesco is the product of thousands of hours of research and development. I wouldn't talk about it. If I didn't believe in and have tried it myself. This is this should be front front. You know, this should be headline news in somehow. It's gone slipped down to the comments section in these ads that are not made up at all. It's very sad that we're out here. Sports media. We're doing this type real journalism when you've got the other guys just getting jerked around on a leash. John Dorsey, you you probably have a couple of viruses from that. But that's okay. Because you don't you don't hear life hall. I got I got vaccinations. Sometimes sometimes I get so interested in one of these ads. I then I look I get like facts of it. And then I Google it. And try to find a, you know, a reputable source that has it when I really wanna know what this fucking kid, and I will build one of my favorite things is if there's like a medicine that's like too good to be true. And like, but maybe because it sounds like it would be cool. Yeah. Like, I I'll Google and then I'd look at the first page of Google results in they're all very clearly written by the makers of that pill up, and they put they have very tricky titles that say like this stuff can't possibly work explanation of this medicine networking debunked. And you click on it. But it just clearly like it actually worked. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, it's basically the business in. Cider model of the Twitter ads the Twitter videos, where you don't need to know any of the ship. But you will always I watched the fucking video today. They're like how did these two planes fly against like next to each other? It's like, well, they did it because they can both fly and they made a promo video and I watched like a three minute video about yet. How planes flew next to each other? And I didn't learn anything. But I would never give back those three minutes. Those were great three minutes spent just mindlessly sitting on the internet wasting my life away. Yeah. You know, what that's what life is. We should start clicking on more of these sponsored ads seeing the products, and then actually ordering the products. Okay. So send us if you see any of these ads click for more send us which ones may screen shot at don't send me a link because I'm not clicking on that shit. But yeah, I'm in I'm in we should just get to the bottom of everything on the internet through HD test. Oh, this is like the load me up. This is like a wormhole will end up on the other side if clicking on web dark, right? We're eventually. We'll just have the matrix. You can get to the matrix by clicking on dick pills. I think you're right. You've become you become Neil. Exactly. All right last up before it gets guys on chicks. Why didn't want he take the little blue pill? When he was offered. You don't wanna Boehner? I haven't seen it in so long matrix two and three sucked. It kind of really kind of lost me when they so pumped through they talk to the old guy. And I was like wait as he got or is he just assigned? It was one of those ones. They tried to be like, oh, man. It's so deeply, but dude it's fucking, you know, so like right when matrix two and three were coming out that movie shooter came out when they did the spinning bullets that could curve, and I was like okay matrix is to advance for my brain. Because they've start to actually talk about weird stuff. Right. I want. Oh, wait this bullet curves. Switching over switching horses going to shoot. That's my new matrix. All right. Let's finish up with. Well, that makes sense. So this is a story from Oakland university or Oakland college in Detroit. I I lo- I love Oakland college because I always been on them in basketball. And I'm like, I'm betting on Oakland. Like fuck forgot us the Detroit school, but the he have decided to give out hockey pucks to their staff. That's nice because that is the best way to train them to thwart an active shooter. They have told everyone in the they're trying to give out seventeen hundred pucks, and they said to fight effectively faculty and students need to be prepared to throw heavy objects that will cause a distraction. So Gordon says pucks fit the Bill and can conveniently be carried in briefcases or backpacks that make sense fighting guns. We're going to a gun fight with the hockey the hockey puck, the the fatal flaw in this plan is like what if the guy's a hockey player. What if he's a defenseman are used to just lie down taking those shots? What if he brings a goalie mitt? Yeah. Well, if it's a basketball player, and they get hit with the puck. They'll be out for like, they'll be out of commission for six months. Yeah. Exact-? So maybe that's what they're counting on. Yeah. Right. I don't I wonder if they practice this. And then. They get their Coursey stats. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. Like, they've got they walked in with big pads. They just start hawking the hockey pucks. They go onto the ice. And they've got like the the four targets set up in each corner of the goal. And you just whip the pucks actually be better. What book does books? We'll actually Hank the pen is mightier than the sword. Yeah. So it's like you're throwing like tens of thousands of swords at somebody at one. Also, I don't think anyone has books anymore. They have computers sh what what Kapiti is for. Okay. Let's finish up guys on chicks. Can you go down at twenty foot waterslide pregnant what twenty-foot what? Yeah. Sure on your back. So this person's pregnant. Yeah, they're trying to go to the Wisconsin dells for Christmas. I just need to know how pregnant that places open indoor over a whole, it's gross. It's really gross. Maybe she's trying to you know. Yeah. Just go to cruising Chevy's instead deep. Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. You got this. Sure. We're doctors. We. Yeah. You can do it is that like one of those new agey type things like dolphin births where? Where if a waterpark birth? Well, if the if the dolphin birth for someone that lives in Orlando, the water washes up your 'virgin, maybe the baby drinks. Yeah. I don't know. No, probably not okay shape. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't want to how phone is. This is this waterside. That's really the question. It's a fun one go for it. If it's like one of those, you know, kind of like, you don't know how long when it was built. And there's kids pissing everywhere. Don't do it. Also, if you're if you're pregnant, and you could get stuck in there for sure so you don't wanna do that. How do I get my husband to clean himself in the shower? He leaves a shower smelling just as bad as when he went in. Does he not know how showers do you need to get a new husband? I think I think this was broken. Oh, I was gonna say you need to get one of those collars that they have at the groomers and just treat him like a dog and just wash them down. His welcome on it and a big sink. Yeah. Just but you can't move until I'm finished washing. Just get. Yeah. Get a power host. He's definitely just jerking off taking shit in there, by the way, he's not shower. And then he's he's he's like putting a little water through his air. Great shower might be smoking cigarettes in there. Yeah. That's weird. Smelly people who are just like naturally. Smelly are very weird. 'cause there's always solutions that you can try right, right? Like, if you smell, you should know you smell. But there are people out there who just smell, and they just refuse to the, you know, admit it's actually called the country of France. Suppose my boyfriend, and I are going to Minneapolis in the middle of December. Indianapolis, Indianapolis, Indianapolis decides freezing my tits off what are some fun things to do there. There's a mall mall, America's mall. It's got a it's got sidewalks in indoor Sandoz holy shit. And yeah, indoor sidewalks good point, Hank. You go to the Super Bowl. I soon they do that every year there tradition. Go to state fair and eat butter. That's probably summertime hurt. Yeah. You case fishing. Yeah. Eat Luda Fisk. So here's a fun tip. Okay. Little little recipe time with PF t-. You buy a fish from the store and you forget about it in your fridge for nine months. And then you just take it out and you bite into with your bare hands. Fisk? Go watch Andrew Wiggins try to shoot a basketball, even though he can't, hey, boys. Why do guys say they don't care when you ask them what they want for Christmas because we really don't care because we really just want cash. That's really the answer. If you want to get your significant other something very nice for Christmas. It is C A S H cash. That's what coach oh get set for his wife. Every I mean, listen at some point. It's like, you know, gifts her presence in that stuff. Those are for kids when kids are too dumb to realize that cash is better than any toy you could ever have. Then you become an adult, and you realize cash is king, and you don't want the new handbag or TV or whatever it may be. I want the cash so I can pay my bookie. Are we're gonna end with a whoa. This one's from Joel on who's actually listener he sent his tweet before went viral and then followed up after it went viral. Oh, we had someone go viral without us knowing. Yeah. No. That's the wo- right there. Whoa. Whoa. Just found out when someone tells you to break leg in an audition. It is because they are hoping you end up in the cast. Will. All right. That's why Alex Smith's about to win. A Tony damn it. All right. That's the end of the show. I now you can't get better than that's great love, you guess.

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From the Vault: Roman Extinctions

Stuff To Blow Your Mind

1:05:03 hr | 7 months ago

From the Vault: Roman Extinctions

"Brought to you by IBM nice days can come with a hidden cost seasonal allergies, so the weather channel is using IBM Watson predict local allergy risk up to fifteen days out, get allergy insights with Watson on the weather channel APP, and whether dot com whenever the world slowly begins to reopen. Lexus once again looks to people for inspiration. Asking a simple question that's been on everybody's mind of all the places you're looking forward to. Where will you go? I will be familiar streets or perhaps unknown roads wherever you may go whenever you're ready Lexus will walk you back with exceptional offers on exceptional vehicles. Find a lexus for every Rhode Lexus. Dot Com experience amazing at your lexus dealer. Hey welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert. Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick candidates Saturday time to go into the vault. This episode originally aired on June twenty-seventh Twenty nineteen and it was about the Roman extinctions. We all know that we're creating plenty of e- ecological catastrophes and extinctions today, but how far back has this gone in history, or are there examples we can find? If previous empires driving species to extinction right, yeah, and it's not to single out the Romans as the the only empire that caused the extinctions, but there's some interesting examples from that time period. Welcome stuff till your mind. Production of iheartradio's has. Hey you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and today. We're going to be talking about not just extinctions. Talking about Roman extinctions extinctions that occurred during the time of the Roman. Republic, but especially the Roman Empire that sounds like a one of those names for like a made up lewd act the Roman extinction Roman extinctions may so good band name. Certainly, it's a Robert. I know you wanted to talk about this. Because of some weird maybe false memory you had that you were trying to explain many yesterday, but it seems like a very apt topic. Whatever the inspiration, because of course all decadent empires place large stresses on the environment around the SLU So you'd expect the the you know. One of the great decadent empires of history would do the. The same yeah, so I think one of the important things to keep in mind throughout this topic is like we're not. We're certainly not meaning to single the Romans out as being like the the the the the the sole examples of some of these activities that lead to to some extinctions because ultimately you can look to various parts of the world in various times, including our own to see plenty of extinction, inducing activities, but I think it's an interesting exercise sort of look to look at Rome which which would have been I think in many ways sort of an intensification of of impulses that were already present in other cultures. So, ticket started. Let's just remind everybody who the Romans were. I'm not sure that the Romans ever done for. Yeah, well speaking of that, yeah for reasons that I think that we don't really need like a full introduction. I think pretty much. Everybody has some idea of who the Romans were, and what the Roman empire was about I mean just the. tropes of of the Roman Empire Pretty. you know ubiquitous in our culture Look for instance to Monty. Python's life of Brian who should just quote it. which, by the way has been singled out for being actually quite historically accurate concern concerning life in Rome Unoccupied First Century Judea. I've read that before a lot of historians. It's more accurate than a lot of serious movies. Because you know a lot of the pictures of Rome. They really especially the older cinematic interpretations, but even more modern films that were influenced by those interpretations. You just get like the STOIC color list very British of vision of Rome. Generally not a lot of like street level, understanding but that's one of the reasons that HBO's Rome. Series it was on for several years. which isn't perfect, but certainly had some admires because of the way that it injected a lot of color and and live off in like street level life into this time in this place. I've also read that Kubrick's spartacus is. is more accurate than a lot of the films that you would have encountered in the nineteen sixties regarding the Romans, but of course still has a number of problems as well mainly. Just remember Joe Pantoliano and the Sopranos being mad at it because Kirk. Douglas has flat top. Like. They didn't have flat Thompson Ancient Rome. by the way I, I always enjoyed the ancient Roman detective novels of Gordon is the finder by Stephen. Say Lower I highly recommend. The those anybody can be clear. Contemporary novels set in ancient Rome. Anyway, we're in short. We're talking about an empire centered in Rome stabbed in twenty seven BC after the collapse of the Roman Republic, which was founded in five, zero, nine BC, and eventually grew, grew rather read sizable, and actually rather difficult to manage due to its is stretching across Europe. The Balkans the Middle East and north. Africa is the classic risk problem you over. Extend your armies too far, you. You. Think you can hold all of Asia and get those whatever you know. Fifty men at the end of each turn that is g over extend. Yeah, it's the problem you see in every empire without fail and And since they weren't empire, they were of course built on military conquest in domination of other lands, and and to be fair. The characters in Monty python are mostly correct in their. Their list of the the quote, unquote, good things that the Romans have done for us. you know we've we talk a lot? Especially on our other podcast invention about various Roman innovations, Roman technologies talked about sewers and toilets, sewers and toilets, but of course they didn't whispering sewers and toilets. They all in an roads they also brought death and bloodshed They depended on slave, labor and we can, at least lays some of the Holocene extinctions at their. Sandal Feet uh-huh, so that's what we're going to focus on today, and and and just fair warning that we will be talking about in places about the Romans trade and exotic animals, and their harsh treatment of these animals in the in the arenas in the coliseum, and this is all bloody and depressing stuff. Stuff cruelty to animals on a massive scale, so just you know sort of fair warning on that and just a reminder for information on how to report cruelty to animals today in the United States. Please visit the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to animals at ASPCA DOT. Org or search for a report animal abuse ASPCA that being said Let's move onto the extinctions. Okay, let's hear. Hear about it so one of the articles that we were looking at him. Preparing for this episode is an excellent two thousand sixteen. Atlantic article titled the Exotic Animal. Traffickers of ancient Rome of Carolina laser in she points out that bloody animal spectacles were an important part of Roman culture. I wasn't just something that was also going on. It's not like say pointing today's culture and saying like. Like a look, the popularity of say, mixed martial arts. It's central to the American experience I don't know you could maybe make that argument, but it's not just a thing in the culture. It's like an integral part of the culture. Maybe you're saying like you can't really understand the culture without it. Yes, yeah, and I believe that's the point. She's making so I think most of us. US are familiar more familiar with human on human gladiator sports which we've, we've touched on on the show before, and if you know any thanks in large part to Ridley Scott's gladiator in modern times, but so many different treatments of gladiatorial combat have been rolled out in our media but it wasn't just human on human violence. You also had them. Inacio add BCS incorrect on that Joe. Dumb Naughty Oh add beastie as I mean I'm not an expert either dumb naughty. Oh, right like damnation well anyway stands for execution by beasts. In there were the Veneta Janas or the hunts in which animals were condemned to die, either at the hands of human hunters, and sometimes. Brutal display of like one hundred, dispatching all sorts of exotic animals on the field, or they would have animals battle each other all for sport, and sadly these these blood sports have been a part of human civilization for quite a while, and though thankfully outlawed in most places, but still cockfighting remains legal in parts of the world has does dogfighting sports bear baiting in Lion Baiting a continued depressingly far into modern times, at least in some parts of the world and bullfighting remains legal in parts of the world as well namely Spain Portugal I would say it's not quite the same because it doesn't involve vertebrates, but I mean even the bug fights thing on the Internet. Internet I'm sure you've seen Oh. Yeah, where we're like crickets or beetles or made to combat each other or centipedes or spiders. I mean it's just basically you put to kind of scary looking bugs into a container together and then shake it and try to make them fight. Yeah, it's I. Don't know what exactly that impulses I mean. There's a part of it I guess I understand because I remember when I was a kid, I would very often want to ask adults questions like what would win in a fight between a tarantula and Scorpion, and like as if I thought the adults just know these things that yeah, you're grown up. You'd know which one would win. Well, there is. A need there's a human necessity to rank and profile the creatures of the natural world and east will see this kind of thing, and like kids books today like my son has a book like who would win in in. It's up to about prehistoric creatures and dinosaurs. In all good educational information better delivered with the the wrappings of of this creature versus this creature, so I was not alone. In this childhood. Curiosity I think it's I mean I think there's something you know normal and healthy in it I mean. Mean Look at nature documentaries which can be quite uncomfortable to watch at times when you have Predator and prey battling each other. Of course, one of the key differences here is that these are natural occurrences, or they better damn well be natural occurrences in a nature documentary, and they're not something that has been orchestrated through cruelty by by humans looking for entertainment, right putting animals into the the Roman arenas kind of the equivalent of the bug fight like you put him in the box and shake it and try to get them fighting right, so I think this is an example of where you know if you know the Roman cruelty to. Animals via blood sport. It's it's an outsized and more sensational example of something that occurs. In other cultures, and in other times it's not an excuse for any of this, but again it's important to ground such activities in the larger picture of human awfulness. But. ways actually opens her article with a discussion of Roman orator CICERO in his correspondences with a former illegal client, a man by the name of Marcus Aurelius this is while Cicero was governor of solic- ah in modern day Turkey, so basically Kalia just continued to Hound Cicero about how he needs him to have some hunters, capture and sin back some local leopards, which they refer to his Greek panthers. Okay, because he needs because he's, he's like you gotta give these to me. CICERO I've got to throw him in the arena the the. The people love this and I'm trying to kickstart my political career here. Come on, don't let me down and it's just. It's like multiple correspondences where he's just really hounding Cicero over this and Cicero keeps dodging him on the matter and saying well look though the you know. The the the local hunters are busy, etc. that's that sort of thing It's like. Can you get Mick Jagger to come to my party. Yeah, I mean it is. It's like imagine if instead of. When you see an individual running for political. Office today instead of sense of it being a situation of them trying to score Neil, young, or you know the guzzlers to play their event, if instead you were trying to procure exotic animals to massacre, each other in a public arena, but it speaks to how important this was to at least a segment of the population, and so this was something that would have been practiced in in in in the Roman republic, but but then reached new heights in the Roman Empire, but it but it. It also is important to know that not everybody was completely on board with this WAZER shares descriptions by my Cicero the describe it as being you know the barbaric and unnecessary and and they're also some descriptions by a plenty of the elder as well which I think we can. We can trust him a little bit more here. Because con dealing with domestic matters, not mysterious species that he has no firsthand knowledge but plenty vindicated a little bit later on this episode. But in this case, ways are points things that they were both writing about how Pompeii the great organized a series of spectacles but but like the main event essentially was a great elephant hunt in the arena. Know and it's interesting in the in the accounts that showed that while individuals like Cicero view, these shows is bloody and cruel The crowds generally loved it, but the elephant hunt was even too much for the. The masses in here's the quote from Cicero obviously translated that she shares quote. The last day was that of the elephants on which there was a great deal of astonishment on the part of the vulgar crowd, but no pleasure, whatever nee there was even a certain feeling of compassion, aroused by it and kind of belief created that the animal has something in common with mankind yet. They kept watching well. Yeah, they kept watch and. But apparently felt awful about it, and there were some some booze and whatnot. Of course, this didn't prevent later. Elephants spectacles from taking place, and ultimately indeed like the continued trafficking of exotic animals is the focus of ways. There's article There was this booming industry for folks who had arranged the capture of exotic wild animals, generally from the extremes of the. The empire, and then transport them back to Rome to fight in the arena, so it was a cruel business but enthusiam it hasn't for the spectacles in the arena, also also bubbled over into enthusiasm for the details of the actual hunts in the tactics they procured them, and this is reflected both in the literature of the day and also in in the art of the Roman Empire where you see murals and whatnot depicting individuals hunting these wild animals, so they could bring them back, and that that will the wildness of it was something that the Romans seem to crave. She points out because the the weren't. There weren't really that many attempts to try and raise them in captivity. They had to be captured and brought back to Rome. Yeah, as part of the appeal I, wonder if the idea about the the methods used in hunting them. Does that show up later in the sort of styles of gladiators that appear in the arena because I know we have the? There is the style of gladiator that's modeled after the fishermen. has like the Trident and the net and all that so there's certain styles that seem to be based on on like the armies of opposing nations or or on professions like fishing I, wondered also, if that the the hunting methods that they talked about with these animals contributed there Very well be the case, so she doesn't get into that in this paper and I didn't see it mentioned in some of the other more animal focused sources I was looking at here, but you know obviously the the gladiatorial tropes that they used in the arena. They were all you know based on existing things you know the. Beata A. Or you know soldier, some sort of animal component that was going to be echoed in design, so let's come back to the elephants though. Because so far, that's been the most alarming you know. Obscenity that we've looked at here on the part of the Romans. It's interesting that passage that you read from Cicero where you know. He's describing the crowds feeling sympathy for the elephants while they watch the brutality being done to them I. Mean I wonder if there's more of that kind of thing going on? On in the the appetites of the Roman arena audiences than we would normally have imagined like we imagine the audiences gladiatorial games, and all this kind of stuff just being you know bloodthirsty like yeah, they want the fight. They want the violence and and they love it. They're eating it up I. Wonder if there was some element of the audience that. I don't know I. It's something more quivalent to the to the kind of like hate watching or the hate clicking Kinda thing people do now like. Were you know people are constantly clicking on things on the Internet that they know we're gonNA make them unhappy. You know you just reliably. No, if I click this link I'm gonNA. Feel bad and I'm not GonNa like what I read, but I click it anyway I wonder where people going to the arena like I know I'm gonNA feel bad, but I have to look at this. It'd be might be worthwhile to come back and explore that in greater detail like the the nature of these gladatorial blood sport events which. We should stress her. Generally, there are a lot more varied and complicated. then. is often related in popular media but still were were violent blood bloodthirsty events. You know what what was the the psychology of that? And then how much of that psychology still remains in the Phantom of various You know a high impact sporting events or actual mixed martial arts or other martial arts, contests, or even simulated athletic contests such as professional wrestling. I. Don't know I have to come back to that. I think but one thing that ways you're also points out. Is that there were there their artistic renditions of say big cats that were used in some of these events, and they would be given names in the art, and there would be kind of they're like some of the iconography would be akin to. That would be used for human gladiators so Yeah it it gets. It gets sticky and then I mean just thinking about the elephants in the obvious connection like the obvious intelligence that is there in the elephant. The sympathy that one feels like this This kind of connection like has existed throughout I think our our experiences with elephants and yet cruelty elephants continues to this day, and Certainly continued on through the you know. The history of of circuses around the world so. I I mean our relationship with animals is always complicated even when we have you know a sympathy actually activated for them well I. Know You wanted to explore more about. The Romans in the elephants yeah so I I titled Elephant Destiny Biography of an endangered species in Africa by Martin Meredith and in this the author details the slaughter in the Roman Arenas, in general in the opening of pompey's games in fifty five BC. Any mentions that no fewer than six hundred lions were massacred just to give everyone an idea of the scale of of bloodshed here six hundred Lions Hugh Magin I mean a lion is a lion as an apex Predator. So they're already. Aren't that many own them? Yeah, and you remove six hundred lions from their habitat. Yeah, to essentially like basically put out the call and say look pompey, the great needs lion, so everybody that is in the in the business of catching lions, or could conceivably catch a lion. Get out there and start catching lines essentially in this this woman just before the elephant event described previously. So! What elephants were they catching well? The author here points out that the north. African elephant was was the likely species. These were the elephants us by the forces of Hannibal's Carthagena Army the African Bush elephant that is still around This one is too wild to to ride around or the really tame in the same way that one uses the Asian elephant, and and not to. To disturb the to single out Carthage other groups used the North African elephant for Labor war as well but anyway following Hannibal's defeat, the region fell under Roman control, and the Romans used these elephants in their bloody sports as well as an attractions. They really have more in common with the sort of circus. Work that we see you know throughout the twentieth century. And and that includes things like tight rope walking. Single. He singles that out in the book but here's a quote touches on the additional levels of exploitation that get become employed quote. Rome's liking for elephants meant that the North African herds faced constant raids. Perilous was the insatiable Roman demand for ivory. Ivory was used to decorate temples. Palaces carried in triumphal processions in made into a vast range of luxury goods, thrones, chess statues, chairs, beds, book covers tablets, boxes, bird, cages, combs, and brushes. Caesar wrote in an Ivory Chariot Seneca possessed five hundred Tripod tables with ivory legs. Tables for. Large. Scale events I guess Caligula gave his horse in ivory stable, while I'm glad we got Caligula in there. I wasn't sure we can actually be able to make room for him. So that being said, some of the ivory came from India and Ethiopia but North Africa suffered the most in seventy seven ce plenty of the elder road about the storage of African ivory quote, an ample supply of ivory is now rarely obtained except from India the demands of luxury, having exhausted all those in our part of the world, and of course the ivory trade still remains a threat to elephant. Populations despite laws and the hard work of of conservationists worldwide, and if you want more information about what's going on and what can be done? recommend everyone checkout, stop, I, re- dot Org for more information. Okay, but what was the ultimate effect on the elephant populations? Do we know of the Roman? Exploitation of these animals did it? Did it damage their populations? Did it drive them extinct? The general consensus is that it it definitely drove their extinction. They either died out during the fifth century. or at least we're well on their way to extinction, but the damage was done. Done during the Roman imperial period, so it wasn't necessarily that we know that the Romans like hunted down the very last of the North African elephants, but they may whatever they did to them damage their populations enough and all that that we think it strongly contributed to their decline right and that's something we're going to see some of these other examples we re bring bring. Bring out as well is that there are other cases where it's certainly not in a situation where the Romans just went out and had killed or had killed all members of the species, but they they had the the power through their their appetites through their their economic demands to actually do this much damage to the environment as again with the. The Roman Empire everything that was already present in human civilization. was there only maybe ramped up a little bit So they're destructive tendencies. You know they had a little more research than you might find. In other civilizations, and of course, the same thing can be said for today their various human appetites, and our various wants and desires and are uses for the. The natural world that at the scale. We're doing things now or even more destructive than they ever were. Yeah, it's a sad fact and it's GonNa. Come up again in some of the other stuff. I've got here I. It's it's sometimes striking. How similar the patterns of of civilization level activity are between things that we do today? In the things the Romans did. Did to exploit their environment. Yeah, all right well on that note, let's go and take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to continue to discuss Roman extinctions. The sound is brought to you by IBM. Today. Every answer matters more than ever before, because whether it's about health, deliveries or finance. Something's just can't wait. That's why IBM's helping. Businesses manage millions of. Of calls texts and chats with Watson assistant it's conversational. I designed to help your customers. Find the answers. They need faster. No matter the industry. Let's put smart to work with IBM DOT COM Slash Watson Assistant to learn more. Today's episode is brought to you by IBM for businesses around the world. Today isn't a restart. It's a rethink that's why they're partnering with IBM retainers. retainers are keeping their systems up as millions of orders move online call centers are using IBM Watson to manage an influx of customer questions with AI and solutions built on the IBM. Cloud are helping doctors care for patients remotely today. We're rethinking how business moves forward, so let's get to it. Let's put smart to work visit Ibkr. Dot Com slash smart to learn more. All right. We're back, so so, Joe. What? What is the next organism? We're GONNA. Discuss here. That was made to to fight gladiators in the arena. Well It's not it. The next one is a plant, but this is going to be one of the main examples that that people often bring up as something that was likely driven to extinction by the Roman Empire, so my main source. Here is an article from conservation. Conservation biology from two thousand three by Ken Parade Co called plenty the elders. Sylvia first recorded species extinction. Now the author can Parejo I looked him up. He was a professor of biology at the University of Wisconsin. Stout. I think he's retired now, but in this Essay the author asked the question. How do we know when a species has gone extinct in the words of e o Wilson quote extinction is the most obscure and. Biological processes that took me for a second and then I. Really Oh. Yeah. I guess that must be true whenever the last ones disappear. It's always kind of a local an isolated phenomenon. Yeah, I mean like a lot of these cases it's it's looking to win. Was the last recorded like dependable and recorded sighting or killing of a particular organism? Yeah, and so the author writes quote, the question of how many species extinctions have gone unnoticed in human history is unanswered. Yet, the past may shed light on the present on what in our behavior has changed and what hasn't so he starts off by talking about our old friend. Plenty of the elder now remember of course, so we know the timing the plenty of the elders, natural history was first published around seventy seven CE and so plenty in one section of his natural history dives an. Explanation of a sort of miracle. Plant that he calls sill theam. The plant is described as having plentiful, Kinda stubby thick roots, a fennel like stalk blade like leaves that resemble Parsley, and then the top of the stocks have an Mbelle when umbrellas, a cluster of short flower stalks, all clumped together, so the flowers kind of resemble a parasol. You've probably seen plants like this. Robert got sort of a little dome of little flowers, all clustered together, so the Romans called it Sylvia Theam, it was also known as Sophie on by the Greeks as well as laser award, and laser Pinkham and and from this plant. Apparently you can create a resin that is called laser L. A. S.. might be pronounced. Lahser. I don't know, but I'M GONNA say laser so this resin called laser plenty describes it quote as among the most precious gifts presented to us by nature. And you could get this resin by making slits in the roots and the stem of the plant, so that its juices in its sap would leach out, and then those juices, and the sap would be dried into a resin to produce laser plenty of sites, a Greek author, probably philosopher Theophrastos who is a student of Plato and Aristotle's on the origins of the plant, and the Greek author claims that the plant was discovered in the seventh century B. B. C e after a black rain fell upon the gardens in a region of North North Africa known, as Cyrenaica which is now Libya Parejo writes quote. It grew most profusely in a region of that country known as the Silvio Faira near the Gulf of serious. There were the plateaus along the Mediterranean. Coast rises tiered highlands that receive considerably more rainfall than the deserts to the South Sylvia thrived in a region of hilly and forested meadows so. So, we're almost getting this picture of this pristine. You know lush little area with the desert to the south, the coast to the north that has all these little plants with the fennel stalks, Parsley leaves in the Mbelle of of flowers near the top in ancient times Sylvia had a number of uses that are recommended to plenty as a kind of miracle plant, and among these uses documented by Parejo a number one. It was fed to livestock like. Like cattle and sheep under the idea that it gave their meet a special desirable flavor, so you really wanted. He wanted your mutton to be fed on Sylvia at tasted way better apparently the the plant parts could also just be cooked, and you know used in in cooking. like The stock could be used. The resin could be used. It was also used medically as a laxative so for effective relief. You go filthy them. But. The concentrated resin called laser, which was which was made from plant, was considered even more useful, it could supposedly treat fevers and coughs and warts. It was believed to be a pain reliever and a hair restoration tonic. Okay, then apparently as I mentioned it was sometimes also used in cooking, and there's also another huge use for this plant, which was that it was apparently believed. Believed to be a contraceptive in abortifacient, and so the juice or resin would be applied to a piece of wool, and then used as a vaginal suppository as a contraceptive or abortifacient and contraceptives and abortifacents were highly desirable in ancient Rome. They were largely saw sought after for of course many of the same reasons that they have been throughout all of history. That's Louis so A laser was in such demand that there was a widely acknowledged problem of unscrupulous Merchants Selling low-quality adulterated lazing. Cut that laser buddy you know. It's like the scene in the movie where the guy gets in trouble for for cutting the coke with baby, powder or something you know this is, this is cutting the laser maybe with with Asif the Tedo. Tedo or something like that, so Peres coats that within gas petroleum, his first century CE fictional work on the SATYRICON. There's a scene where an Egyptian slave sings a song from what is apparently a well known contemporary musical farce, and this musical farce of the days called the laser dealer so you get a sense that the laser dealer of ancient. Ancient Room the ancient Roman. Empire might have had a reputation sort of like the used car salesman are today. He's trying to give you you know. Get you to buy to pay too much for something. That's not worth what you think. It is okay because I mean ultimately we're not talking. This was not FDA approved. There was not now system you. You were you were going to essentially an apothecary or just somebody who had supply supplier claimed Abbas supply of the the the the the laser that you needed and yeah, if you didn't trust them, have if they were a little sketchy, they might be cutting the product or selling something else in that calling laser and think about what people were using this. This product for it's something that if you got something. That was an inferior product. That didn't work as well as you thought it would. You might be facing serious consequences, and so here's the weird fact. We don't know for sure. What plant species plenty was talking about it. It was hugely important, commercially important plant and we don't know for sure what it was. Was There is a plant genus in America called Sylvia M-, but it's apparently not related an author team Rackham in nineteen fifty suggested that plenty silky might have been species called Farrell a Tingi Gaetana or feral. Marco, which are North African plans, still exists today, or of course it could be extinct, relative of the is, but that's just rackham suggestion. Suggestion it's widely believed that the Roman Empire may very well have driven this miracle plant to extinction. So how would that be well? Already in his day plenty complains that you can't really get Sylvia anymore. He notes that in the year forty nine BC Julius. Caesar ordered the stockpiling of fifteen hundred pounds of lasers, just the resin in the Royal Treasury but by plenty zone lifetime remember plenty the his his his published in seventy seven CE, so this would have been just about one hundred years later in plenty of lifetime. By this time, the plant had vanished in its natural range and last known stalk of it quote being valued at its weight in gold and sent to the Emperor Nero and I'm. I'm sure Niro. Did something awesome with? And? So, what's the reason for this decline and disappearance of Cynthia? Well plenty says that you know the main explanation. Plenty gives his quote tax farmers who rent the pasture edge strip it clean by grazing sheep on it, realizing that they make more profit in that way okay, and to be honest I'm not positive I. understand what plenty he's saying there. What that means, but I think possibly it refers to the fact that meat from the livestock that's fed on silty got a much higher price because it was believed to taste better. So you could get more money for the you know upgraded meat, but this is you know this decimating yourself field guy said in a way like just multiple demands on the product because it was used for so many things. Including people just want to graze their animals on in produce, superior meat, but it all comes down to to demand for the various products, direct products or products that depend upon the Sophea, and there were limited habitats in which silken would grow so Parejo also offers some other thoughts about what what could have contributed to the decline of. and a chief concern he raises his habitat destruction. He says that a very popular would for a Roman furniture cam from the through on tree, which filled the forests of Cyrenaica, and overharvesting of this would possibly lead to deforestation of the area that is now Libya, and in turn this led to soil erosion without tree roots to hold the soil and place you know the soil roads, and in rainfall, and the wind or anything with destroyed the fumes natural habitat in the hilly meadows near the coast. So there you've got a couple of unsustainable practices coming together to conspire to the demise of this plan. Plan, he also points to unsustainable farming practices in the region which were aimed at short term profits, but which came at the long term, expensive soil quality also says their historical records of political conflict over Sylvia in Cyrenaica so in in the region in this region during the Roman Empire there were like there were native tenant farmers, and then the rich Roman landlords, and as Sylvian became scarce, the Romans tried to put tight control on the production by saying only they could farm it on their lands, and they put fences up around the meadows where the Sylvian grew in order to keep the locals. But parejo writes quote. The natives practiced to kind of agrarian terrorism by tearing down the fences and letting their flocks is on the. To increase the value of the sheeps mutton, and then also apparently sometimes they would just go into the fields in the night, and just up route the plants just pull them up by the roots kind of as a middle finger to the Roman overlords on Romans, go home another thing That's a possible explanation here. Apparently, the Romans were obsessed with garlic. Oh! Well yeah and I don't often side with the Romans, but I cannot fault them. Their garlic is great. Yeah, I mean the garlic not only is it a wonderful culinary ingredient but I mean it has a number of different medicinal uses in You know in herbal traditions. Yeah, is that anti microbial property? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely and so Paresh Co writes quote. Garlic was such a popular plant with the Roman army that it was said one could follow the advance of the Roman legions expansion of the empire by plotting range maps for garlic. so the Romans in Cyrenaica also apparently destroyed some habitats so they could plant garlic locally. and so the question is, did silty go extinct in the first century CE or not? Some scholars have argued that Sylvia was cultivated at least until a few hundred years later in the fifth century because their references to it in some later writings, people have you re writing letters in the fifth century C e talking about having silky implants, but these references could very well be to what what Paresh calls. PSEUDO SYLVIA GMS other plants that were incorrectly identified as Sylvia, and had been for a long time, or also, for a long time, had been combined with Laser Resin to adulterated, or had simply been sold as fake Sylvia by. By yet another unscrupulous laser dealer. Yeah, you know this is something I. I was reading about recently. and another book about just you know is is is ancient. Peoples moved around. There might be a traditional plant that they depended upon, and as they move out of range and sometimes take it with them to some extent, but then lose it. They have to find new substances that will fulfill at least some of the properties or they hope will fulfill some of the properties, and sometimes you just give it the same name or or or a similar name, exactly and you know, and not all plants can follow. Follow you outside of the I mean. Some plants are very particular about their native range and can't be really grown outside it very well, and it does appear Selfie as one of those but in the first century, ce other plants and spices were being recommended as a substitute for Sylvia. I'm like Parejo sites. Roman cookbook from around twenty ce that recommends Asif Petita as a substitute for laser and recipes, presumably, because real laser was already really expensive or hard to get so ultimately we don't know for sure whether or not the species plenty is talking about actually went extinct, but it seems pretty likely. It's got a limited natural range. Range subject to habitat destruction, and over exploitation as well as intentional destruction and the author ends by saying either way it's interesting and sad to see the exact patterns of human behavior, leading to extinction of plant and animal species. Today have been with us for thousands of years. I mean it's almost re reads like a like a parody of modern stories about how we we overexploited certain plants and animals absolutely well note. We're GONNA. Take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to discuss a few more Roman extinctions, or at least in some of these cases extinctions that were greatly contributed to by the Roman Empire. Working from home. Conference calls. On me and John with everything we have going on right now. It's never been more important at the sleep. We need quality. Sleep is a natural immune booster and only sleep number three sixty smart bent senses. Your movements automatically adjusts your comfort and support on both sides your sleep number setting so all those other things we're doing to stay healthy and happy well. They'll work better to and now during the lowest prices of the. The season, the Queen Sleep number three sixty four smart bet is only twelve nine save four hundred dollars, only for a limited time to learn more go to sleepnumber dot com. I would go this Dj Vlad now would like to check out the Vlad. TV, podcast says two thousand eight by TV has been giving hard hitting no-holds-barred interviews with some of the biggest rappers, singers, actors, professional athletes, former criminals and everyone in between. We've interviewed celebrities like the Baby Cardi. B. Me goes little baby, doe, cap or Mario WWe champion. Marquette twenty-one Savage Warren South. On Fly Fad, Fadul Daddy trae whole Charlemagne and many many more. We're regular guests like rap, legend Busey Media Titan Cannon comedy, Legend, d.l Hughley an NBA champion John South. We're the only ones brave enough to ask a question that everyone else's too scared to ask and we interview someone. It becomes biggest interview so listen to the Vlad TV podcast on the iheartradio APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. All, right, we're back, okay. Can We talk about bears yes? Let's talk about bears. The Atlas Bear is by some estimates notable victim of Roman civilization and the civilizations that followed in the wake of the Roman Empire. these were the brown bears of northern Africa and their extinction can at least be partially attributed to the Romans though we have to stress here. It didn't truly go extinct in the wild in the wild to the late nineteenth century so sometime later. To be sure, but so we're saying that Maybe the Romans did stuff to contain its range or something like that yeah, or certainly really kick started the tradition of of exploitation and habitat destruction that would reach its final form in the nineteenth century so basically what happens is when the Romans expanded into the Atlas Mountains of Modern Day Morocco. The bears were hunted for sport, and they were captured for transport back to the arenas in Rome as well so we're talking thousands and thousands of them again. When we're talking about the the trade in exotic animals, it's not just like a few a few individuals here and they're catching a few. Curious creatures and sending them back. You know I think it's easy to fall back on you know certainly a lot of this took place during you know the time of European colonialism, as well but a lot of times it brings to mind pictures of say like the hold of a ship with a few different animals in it or something like that but we're talking like tons and tons of creatures here. thousands. And thousands of bears I mean. Like they're all that many bears to begin with right, yeah, and and so the initial depleting of their numbers put them in a terrible position for centuries of habitat loss and deforestation to follow, and also continued hunting, which is ultimately bolstered by development of modern firearms, and the apparently, when you look at the the the the the last known sightings of these animals, they pretty much line up with modern firearms, being available so that that just pushing the hunting over the edge. the this made me think a little. Though about bears and human extinction I it was once the arise prehistoric cave bears were hunted into extinction by humans but it doesn't seem to be This was actually the case, or at least this is not the predominant theory. Now you know these were largely or or Victoria's creatures, and they might have just been too much for ancient humans to really. Really tackle on a regular basis and human numbers might not have been sufficient to pull off that kind of a extinction at the time so we can't lay their extinction. Entirely Human Feet I'd love to come back and discuss cave bears, or or other star peers like the short faced bear in the future, but it is interesting to think of that in terms of the scaling up of human activities like. There, were there were times there? Certainly, there are certainly animals that th that early humans contributed to their to the extinction of You know no doubt about it, but if I if populations are smaller there's less that can be done towards pushing an animal's extinction, right? Now another animal, a creature you might expect to show up on. This list is the ostrich because it doesn't seem like a a natural creature that would be out there in the Roman arena right but the the ostrich we're talking about here is not the common ostrich that you're probably thinking of the would. You can see it most zoos and What have you well? I mean I was thinking when you said this okay. There are some large birds. I can't imagine in the arena. I was thinking about the Cassowaries oh. Yeah, and that's where he is the scariest feet, if anything ever seen well, yes, in ostriches can be quite terrifying. Close up for sure and they can, and they are dangerous. Animals but but I have to admit it wasn't like the first thing I thought about as being something that there would have really suffered due the pressure of Roman appetite. but what we're talking about here is not the common ostrich, but the Arabian ostrich or the Syrian ostrich also known as the middle. Eastern ostrich in lived in the near and Middle East as opposed to the common ostrich of Africa that we all know today. Now, to be sure, the Arabian ostrich suffered under humans for quite a while they're mentioned and other ancient texts They're even mentioned in the Bible and given that they are giant birds. You know they've always been something of a curiosity for humans. And you see this as far east, as China we're specimens were taken for display. But the Romans were also rather taken with them and again everything with the Roman. Empire you can sort of see a leveling up of of of appetite to a certain extent, but also just the ability to exert that appetite on the natural world so because again these ostriches were exotic, and it became something of a status symbol. You see them popping up on Roman. Coinage from that from that time period seems true. Sylvia my own. was on coins. We have which speaks to like what kind of value was put on these on the species. But in the arena the ostriches were made to pull chariots to participate in other you know violent arena spectacles, which of course tended to have a terrible end for the animal but they were also prized in Roman cuisine, both the meat and the eggs. I was in the Romans were. Omnivorous to an extreme, you can read these these cookbooks where it seems like they ate, they tried eating just about everything I was reading a cookbook entry in something earlier today with this recipe for like a parrot and Flamingo I think yeah, there's some very exotic dishes which again I think is part of just like the traffic of these exotic animals There's a apparently a really good on it. That I didn't have time to really get into a lot, but Patrick Foss wrote one called around the room and table food, feasting and ancient Rome in he was looking at some Roman cookbooks and he to at least a couple of of ostrich recipes, one for an ostrich stu one for a boiled ostrich. So boiled whole ostrich No, not whole. Not all you know th. There were limits to what you could do but then I mean outside of this too I mean ostrich feathers were prized. For use in ornamentation and costumes. But the Arabian ostrich, the Syrian Austrians up surviving the Roman Empire, but they did not survive the pressures of the modern world, so they're thought to have gone extinct sometime in the Mid Twentieth Century so they made it pretty far, but again. This is a situation where you can't lay their extinction entirely at the feet of the Roman Empire by any means, but you can certainly look to the degree that the Roman Empire added additional pressure upon their survival. All right well I've got another one where we don't have clear evidence that the Romans drove a species extinct, but with the there are some interesting. About possibilities in history that the may have previously been imagined, so let's let's take a look at plenty again. Elder from his natural history book. Nine Chapter Five, and this is the John Bostock translation where plenty is talking about Bellina, the Bellina and the ORCA a note in this passage. There's this word Bellina. It's believed to refer to some kind of you know key. Toss it meaning like sea, monster or big fish. which which for plenty would include Wales, but we don't. We think he's talking about a whale. We don't know what he's talking about. Okay, this is where we get baleen from. If it looks similar demolishing, I would assume so yeah so he says the Bellina Penetrates to our seas. Even it is said that they're not to be seen in the ocean. Ocean of Getty's before the winter solstice, and it periodical seasons retiring conceal themselves in some calm Capitus Bay, in which they take delight in bringing forth, this fact however is known to the Orca, an animal which is peculiarly hostile to the Bellina, and the form of which cannot be in any way adequately described, but as an enormous mass of flesh armed with teeth. The animal attacks the Bellina in its places of retirement, and with its teeth tears. It's young or else attacks. The females have just brought forth, and indeed while they're still pregnant, and as they rush upon them, it pierces them just as though they had been attacked by the beak of a Lebron Galley and that refers to like a sharp pointing ship and and he goes on and on about the ORCA hunting these bellina. But all of it is I mean this sounds exactly like everything we've discussed regarding or can the past I mean this is like straight out of a modern documentary in which we get to see you know spectacular underwater footage of the ORCAS, or at least the the the variety of orcas that that feed on Wales going after them. Yes, I mean it is an accurate description of things you might see in some parts of the ocean except there's a problem. In the early part of this passage is referring to the some kind of whale that retires seasonally to the shallows to give birth in the area around what is now? So that's in south western Spain but the passage has long been of interest to marine biologists, because there are no Wales in the region that match this ecological and behavioral description, and in fact there are whales in the Mediterranean sometimes, but they tend to be like deepwater whales that do not retire too shallow bays around to give birth. So what was plenty talking about like? Like did he get the story mixed up? Is he confused about the location about the behavior of the whales, or what, or maybe was he referring to whales that once would have calved in that area, but no longer do now there are whales that fit that ecological and behavioral description, but they don't live in the Mediterranean. A couple of examples would be gray. Whales which. The gray whale is a balloon whale up to about fifteen meters long roughly fifty feet about thirty five metric tons and its worldwide range today has been reduced to a couple of populations in the northern Pacific Ocean when one of its to population subgroups, the Western group is endangered, and then also it would fit the North Atlantic. Right Whale, which is also bullying, wail of being danger. Today lives in the Northern Atlantic as the name implies it's up to about sixteen meters, or about fifty feet long in about sixty four metric tons and And right whale was a huge target of the historical whaling industry because they were valuable, and they were easy to catch, and they were hunted to commission extinction by the mid nineteen hundreds and nearly two biological extinction. They're they're pretty much entirely gone from the eastern. North Atlantic, there's a single population of about five hundred individuals that survives in the western North Atlantic, and that's it interesting, so you know in terms of of extinction we've often touched on like the the the differences between extinct in the wild You know absolute extinction. But commercial extinction something I don't often think about like basically depleted to the point where like the the industry wailing this particular animal is no longer viable. Yeah, exactly so so let's come back to to the whales in a different question. When was the first time somebody decided? They could base a whole industry off hunting whales and we know hunting whales in like individual cases goes back thousands of years, but the first known large scale, commercial whaling industry in history has long been believed to be the Basque whaling business of the Medieval period, and there's no evidence that hunting whales by humans would have happened at any scale large enough to have had an effect on. On whale populations before the Basque whalers of the Middle Ages, but there are earlier descriptions of whale hunting another piece of ancient Roman literature. We WanNA. Look at here is an awesome poem about fishing by the second century. Ce Greco Roman poet opium called the Halley Utica and this is from the Loeb classical library edition. It describes all kinds of stuff you know the way the the fishers go out in the boat, and they stab at the whale with barbies, an attache to it with a rope, and they then attach the rope to water skins or or skins that are filled with human breath, and they're of course buoyant, so it's Kinda, like in jaws. They spear the shark with the floating barrels but then the oppy and writes quote now win. The deadly beast is tired with his struggles in drunk with pain, and his fierce heart has been with weariness, and the balance of hateful doom inclines then first of all skin, comes to the surface, announcing the issue of victory, and greatly uplift the hearts of the Fisher's even as when a herald returns from dolorous war in White Raymond and with. With a cheerful face, his friends exulting, follow him, expecting Straightway to hear favourable tidings sued the Fisher is exult when they behold the hide the messenger of good news, rising from below, and immediately other skins rise up, and emerged from the sea, dragging in their trained, the huge monster, and the deadly beast is hold up all and willingly distraught in spirit with labor and wounds has grim. Yeah, it is I mean it's like I feel like. A good poet in a way, but it's it's a sad story. He seems to be delighted about it. Though it does seem to resemble the shark hunting sequence in jaws than more than. It's not clear what kind of whale oppy and things he's talking about. Okay, so we know the Romans didn't have the technology to do deep ocean whaling, but is it possible the Romans did participate in more shallow whaling than previously thought they certainly did a lot of fishing and fish processing. The Roman Empire loved fish. They had like fish processing plants. Basically, they made stuff. That's like you know modern fish sauce like Kula. Tura. salted fish product, so there were there were big on seafood and the fishing industry, but did they do any whaling. We didn't previously have really any evidence that that happened at any kind of. Of Scale, but study from two thousand eighteen find some interesting evidence. That might make us question that This was published in proceedings of the Royal Society Biological Sciences. Two Thousand Eighteen by Anna. Rodriguez at all and the authors you point out that whales are often archaeologically invisible meaning when they die, their bones sink to the bottom of the ocean, and we just don't usually get much of a record of them. even when they're caught or processed by humans, ten most often to be processed on the beach right and their stuffed the blubber and everything taken away, and then the bones just get washed back into the water. and this study used DNA analysis of bones found in Roman and pre Roman archaeological sites I think primarily ancient fish processing factories in the Gibraltar region, and they found among the bones that there were there were remains of three right whales, three gray whales, but also fin whale, sperm, whale, a long fin pilot, whale, Adul-, fionn, and one bone from an African elephant. Oh, I'm not sure what was doing it. The fish processing plan. Also makes me wonder which if if this was true since it's not a study about elephants if we're talking about the the. African elephant or the extinct north. African Elephant Oh. Yeah, I'm actually not sure there yeah but so the authors used radiocarbon dating placed the bones with an origin between two fifty. And five twenty five sees of the Roman Empire. Period. and. The authors believed this indicates that the historical range of these two whale species. The gray whale in the right whale actually included the Gibraltar region in the Mediterranean Sea is calvin grounds at the time, so in the Roman period, the ranges of these two whales were were very different. They were much bigger apparently, and the authors write that win. These two whale species disappeared from. From the Mediterranean, it was probably accompanied by quote. The disappearance of their predators killer whales, so you're not normally going to be seeing ORCA and the Mediterranean right, but they might have been there to prey on these Wales at the time when their their their main prey vanishes, they have to vanish as well exactly, and then also they say and and a reduction in marine primary. Primary Productivity and the authors also think that if these species of coastal accessible whales were historically present, it might indicate that the Roman Empire had forgotten pre Basque whaling industry quote. None of this demonstrates that are Roman. Whaling industry existed, but didn't indicates that Romans had the means the motive and the opportunity to capture gray in right whales at an industrial scale, and then also. Also quote nonetheless, if such an industry did exist, it could have had an impact on the eastern North Atlantic populations of these two species, as it would have affected a particularly adult females with disproportionate demographic consequences in these long-lived slowly reproducing species, thus Roman exploitation may have played a role in the observed decline in Atlantic gray whale genetic diversity before the onset of Industrial Basque whaling. so quite a few IFS there, right? We don't know you know. If this whaling industry existed and all that but you can see how it's plausible that a Roman whaling industry could have contributed to the decline of whale populations in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, but I did just want to caution this with you know because not everyone agrees with how to interpret the study. I was reading an article about this in the Guardian that cited a doctor Erica ruin a classical archaeologist at Royal, Holloway University of London, and she said the study does show these wills habitats once included the Gibraltar region, but the the small number of bones over the short timespan found doesn't necessarily. Necessarily prove that there was a large commercial whaling industry in ancient in the ancient Roman Empire, which of course, the authors didn't say they were proving that they suggested as possible quote. I think that if these whales were present in such numbers were being caught on an industrial scale that we would have more evidence, perhaps not in the zoo archeological record, but in the ceramic record in literary sources, the Romans Eight and talked about an enormous variety efficiency food, and if the whale was widely exploited and exported than it is strangely absent from many discussions, so she makes the point. Yeah, you might not expect to find many physical remains because of the way that whales are often processed. But you would probably expect to find writings where people talked about the whale industry at one of the the Roman authors is work survives to today would have. would have seen. It would have commented on. It would have been impressed by the scale of the industry. Yeah well yeah, would have said that they ate. It would have recorded some sort of a recipe or not a recipe than like you know some sort of record of what they were using. The you know the the the various things they might have been processing the whale into. Yeah, I can see that being a potential red flag there, so I guess the big takeaway today is the empires have consequences they do either. They have a lot of consequences, and it's and it's I. think easy to overlook the consequences that they have on the. The natural world and have always had and again we have to think about the scaling up of human behavior as our you know our modern empires in our modern you know a nation states continue to scale up what they're dealing sometimes taking into account impact on the natural world, but perhaps not as much as it should be the case so kind of a cautionary tale I guess from the Roman world. Don't kill the elephants. Don't deplete the Sylvian, and of course these are the mainly the the species most of. Of the species we talked about here. We're things that their absences notable because they were value in something right. These are the things that there are historical records of going missing right. Yeah, so are being reduced so just imagine other species that were less remarkable, or at least less valued, or at you know they. They weren't exotic creatures. You know very you think of the various rodents or insects have birds, or what have you that could have also have been destroyed by Roman activity and it just didn't make it into the history. History Books Yeah all right so there you have it as always view more episodes of stuff to blow your mind, visit stuff to your mind, dot com, because that's where you'll find him, and if you want to support the show, always the best thing you can do is tell friends about the show. Make sure you rate and review US wherever you have the power to do so, and if you have any thoughts on the the organisms, we discussed today the histories we discussed today. If you have additional ideas if you have corrections. Additional organisms we might have missed that went extinct, or might have gone extinct during the Roman time or due in part to the Roman influence. Let us know we'd love to hear from you. Huge thanks as always to are excellent audio producer Tari Harrison if you'd like to get in touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other to suggested topic for the future to answer any of those questions Robert, just said or just to say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff to blow your mind dot com. Stuff to blow your mind is a production of iheartradio's how stuff works. podcast from IHEART radio is iheartradio, APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Never has the world of golf and more fascinating or more in flux. Thanks to a suddenly newfound appreciation for a sport that millions love, and even more millions of watching my new podcast. The shack show hosted by me. Geoff Shackelford will be that safe space to discuss matters both vitally important and totally escapist. 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