5 Episode results for "Helen Learn"
"Hello listeners. Welcome to our biography podcast. This week's podcast is about Helen Keller. Helen Keller was a deaf and blind woman who overcame her disabilities and became an American political activist author and lecturer. Unlike many other death and blind people. Helen. Keller was not born deaf and blind. She was born a healthy child. However when she was almost nineteen months old, she contracted an illness that left her deaf and blind. This devastated our world as she couldn't understand anything happening around her. Despite her disabilities she accomplished several feats that made her famous throughout the world. When she was twenty three years old she published her first book at the age of Twenty Four. She became a graduate a feat not achieved by any other deaf blind person before at the age of thirty three, she became a lecturer for the American Foundation for the blind. Chief and traveled the world and worked for the cause of women's rights, labor rights antimilitarism. How can a woman who couldn't even see her here become one of the best humanitarian of the twentieth century listen to this podcast to find out how she overcame her disabilities get a glimpse into her tragic yet profound story. Will. Listen to the of men and women who transformed their lives using pure passion and cheer hard will to become the pioneers in their field and change the course of history. This is wizards whose biography podcast. The podcast helps you learn the real truth about successful personalities subscribe now to get access to future episodes. The biography of Helen Keller. Helen Keller was born in eighteen eighty in Alabama to Arthur Henry Keller and Catherine Everett Keller. Her father was a newspaper editor and a captain in the confederate army. Her mother was the daughter of a general in the confederate army. Helen Keller had two siblings and two half siblings from her father's earlier marriage contrary to most cases Helen was not born blind and deaf she was healthy when she was born. But when she was nineteen months, old Helen Keller contracted a mysterious illness which left her death and blind it was described by. As an acute congestion of the brain and stomach reports suggested that the disease could have been meningitis or scarlet fever. This illness left Helen completely devastated. She had no idea of what was going on around her as nobody knew how to communicate with her with age Helen learned a few signs the Turk convey her needs to her family. When she was seven years old, she could even identify people using the vibration from their footsteps. The unruly kid. Her parents showed extra care for her because of her disability. Since he was a kid, she used this to her advantage and dot whatever she wanted by throwing temper tantrums she dominated the entire household and terrorize the servants. But her parents did not do anything against it because they did not know how to communicate with her. So they gave into her tantrums instead of teaching her to behave properly. Inability to form sentences. Sentences are the basic building blocks of languages but sentences themselves are made up of different words like nouns, verbs, prepositions, etc. so we can say that learning a language without learning, it's words as impossible. However. Helen did not know about the existence of words. So she did not know that everything around her name and she can refer to an object using its name. For example, she can touch table and know that it is there but she didn't know the table can be called a table. Since. She did not know the existence of words she couldn't form sentences either so she couldn't form proper thoughts insider brain since most of our thoughts are in the form of sentences, this could have intern frustrated or in mater unruly and wild. One Book that changed everything. When she was six years old, her mother was reading American notes written by Charles Dickens. It contained his findings during his six month trip to North America in Charles Dickens had written about a deaf blind girl called Laura Bridgman born fifty years before Helen Keller like Helen. She had also lost her ability to see and hear when she was two years old Charles Dickens mentioned that she was successfully. Educated in the English language reading this Helen's mother became hopeful. She immediately sent Helen and her father to visit an ear nose and throat specialist. He referred Helen to Alexander Graham, Bell who in turn referred her to the Perkins Institute for the Blind, this is the same institute where Laura Bridgman had studied the Perkins Institute for the blind sent an old student called an Sullivan to teach Helen Keller. And Sullivan Like Helen Keller and Sullivan had vision problems when she was five years old, she had contracted an eye disease that left her mostly blind after joining the Perkins Institute for the blind she underwent eye is that significantly improved her vision she learned sign language, which is used to communicate with deaf people from Laura Bridgman and graduated when she was twenty years old. Soon after graduating, she was sent to teach Helen. The first word an taught Helen was goal she gave adult to Helen which he took gladly then she felt the letters d. o. l. l. on Helen's other hand Helen learned the letters quickly and imitated ends actions to spell the same word. This indicated to him that Helen was intelligent and can be taught. Meeting her mentor. When an Sullivan I met Helen Keller. She was an unruly kid. She ran around the house breaking things eating from others, plates and was astonished none of Helen's family members did anything to stop her behavior or teacher to behave properly and noticed that her family's sympathy only encouraged Helen to continue being unruly. She understood that she must discipline Helen without using force. And felt that the first step to teaching Helen was to teach her how to behave properly. So with the permission of Helen's family and to custody of Helen for two weeks during these two weeks and was the only person Helen could depend on therefore helen couldn't run to her parents went and tried discipline her. During these two weeks, Helen Learn to behave properly in addition to that helen learn several words from an she could spell them out man's hands but she was just imitating what an was doing just like a monkey she thought it was a game. She did not understand that each of these words have meaning and referred to an object and did not know how to make Helen understand that each of these was a word and had a purpose. In her frustration and took hell into a water pump. She put one hand of Helen under flowing water, and on the other hand she spelled out the letters w. a. t. d. r.. It was only then that Helen had the revelation that this flowing substance had a name cold water helen later remembered the event as. I knew then that W. a. t. e. r. mental a wonderful cool something that was flowing over my hand. That living word awakened my soul. gave it like hopefully set it free. Once, she learned the name for Water Helen Bent. Down immediately touched the earth and demanded its name soon, she learned other words to and by the end of the day new thirty words and their meanings. Helen, later described this meeting as her sole birthday. This signaled the beginning of a forty nine year relationship between and and Helen this interaction between and Helen is brilliantly portrayed in the film. The miracle. Worker. Formal education. Helen's formal education began in eighteen, eighty eight when she and and moved to the Perkins Institute. In eighteen ninety four they moved to New York for higher studies at the Horace Mann School for the deaf in eighteen, ninety six, she got admission into the Cambridge School for young ladies. Nineteen hundred she started her bachelors degree in Radcliffe College. Harvard. University it was unthinkable at that time and age for a deaf blind woman to achieve proper form education through such reputed institutes. But Helen had a thirst for knowledge and helped her quench it. Mark Twain who was impressed by Helen and her perseverance introduced her to an oil magnate who later sponsored Helen's education in nineteen nine, hundred, four Helen graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe school she was the first deaf blind person to get this degree. Learning to speak. Helen was determined to Converse with people conventionally. So she slowly began reading lips with her hands in speaking small sentences. She used sign language very proficiently and became an expert in Braille. The writing system used for the visually impaired Helen spent the rest of her life giving speeches and lectures on how she overcame the disabilities that crippled and became an inspiration to death and blind people across the world. She shared the joy that life gave her in her speeches and motivated young women and men to live life to the fullest. Personal Life. The nineteen o five and married John macy and John and Helen move to forest hills in New York along with the HOUSEHELP polly Thomson ends health began to deteriorate and nineteen fifteen. So polly started taking care of Helen. When she was in her mid Thirties Helen secret love affair with a finger spelling specialist sent to her home to be with her when an fell ill, she even tried to Elope with him and got secretly engaged the affair ended soon after when Helen moved in with her mother in Alabama after her father's death. And died in the year nineteen, thirty, six with Helen by her side after Ann's death, the household help poly became Helen's companion. They both traveled the world together and raised money to help blind people polly died in the year nineteen sixty and Helen was left with a nurse who was originally hired to look after Paulie. She remained with Helen until her death in the year nineteen, sixty eight. Books lectures. Helen authored a total of twelve books and many articles at the age of twenty two helen published her autobiography, the story of my life with the help van. She toured thirty five countries to raise awareness about causes. He was passionate about. The Helen Keller Foundation was founded in the year nineteen fifteen for research and charitable purposes. Helen felt strongly about the causes she supported and was a staunch supporter of the working class. She traveled to many countries to motivate deaf and blind people and became a favourite of the masses. Contribution to the world. Before Helen's time blind and deaf people were considered a burden for the family. They were treated harshly and sent to live in asylums where the living conditions were terrible. Nobody thought that they could contribute anything to society. But Helen Keller changed all that she proved to the world that when provided with proper guidance and support blind and deaf people can accomplish great things. This not only motivated blind and deaf people, but also taught others to treat them better. During Helen's time four systems were used to teach visually impaired to read and write this caused confusion and difficulty when blind people wanted to communicate with each other due to Helen's continued efforts in one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, two, Braille was made the standard system to teach blind people this made it easy for blind people to communicate with each other she traveled to different countries to help. Visually challenge people her visits created real improvements in the form of more Braille books, better educational opportunities, and job training for the blind. These improvements have helped blind people to integrate with society. She also pushed the US government to provide more assistance to the blind her fundraising campaigns for the American Foundation for the blind continue to help blind people get proper education were training and live independently. Helen. Also supported birth control and was against military intervention. She joined the famous International Labor Union called industrial workers of the world she wrote for them from Nineteen, sixteen to nineteen eighteen highlighting workers, plights, and the greed of their employer's. Political ideology. was a radical socialist who opposed Woodrow Wilson, and favored leftist political ideologies. She was a member of the socialist. Party and spread awareness through her writings on the rights of women in the impacts of war. She met twelve US presidents. Helen even wrote a series of essays on socialism called out of the dark. Death. Then, her last year's Helen was mostly confined to her home. After suffering a series of strokes, she continued to raise awareness through the American Foundation for the Blind Helen continued to raise funds for them to on I nine hundred and sixty eight. She passed away peacefully in her sleep at her home in Connecticut. Bonders. The hospital in Alabama. The Helen Keller Hospital is dedicated to Helen Alabama honored her by issuing a coin in Braille in her name. Helen. Keller is also inducted in the National Women's hall, of Fame and Alabama women's hall of fame. She was one of the inaugural inductees in the Alabama Writers Hall of fame as well. Various movies and television series were made on Helen's life and we're loosely based on her autobiography. The Bollywood movie black was based on her life. Fact. You probably didn't know. Helen Keller and mark. Twain. Were good friends. They were both radical socialists. It was Mark Twain who gave an Sullivan the name neural worker. Helen's family got a whiff of her affair with her male secretary and those days people believed that if a parent is disabled, the child will be born with the same disability to so her family forbade the two of them to marry because of her disabilities Helen said that the first thing she would do if she could see would be to get married. She introduced the US to the dog breed Akita which was gifted to her when she toured Japan. She won an Oscar for her documentary Helen Keller in her story. Helen was an excellent typist and could type very fast in both standard typewriter and Braille. Typewriter. Due to her radical political views the F. B. I. Track Helen's relationships and activity for almost thirty years. We hope that this podcast helped you learn about Helen Keller for struggles and her achievements whenever you think your life gets out of hand remember what Helen said. Although the world is full of suffering. It is also full of the overcoming of it. This podcast was created by with Zoro, a learning APP for your entire family to read interesting articles or listen to interesting audios on finance health history life stories, and science download our APP from apple and Google play stores are APP is fell W I s you are you
Heroines Week Helen Keller and Annie Sullivan
"Choppers is produced by Gimblett and sponsored by crest and oral B. Very you ready to get here. Roic good because it's time for chompers your morning and night tooth brushing. Chef. Serb brushing on the top of your mouth on one side. But don't rush to her. It's heroines week where we talk about your roic women from history today, we have the story of two heroines Helen Keller and Annie Sullivan who spent their lives helping people who are blind and deaf. Helen, Keller and Annie Sullivan lived a little more than one hundred years ago. Helen was blind and deaf, which means she couldn't see or hear her world was dark and quiet. Helen's parents wanted to communicate with her. But they couldn't figure out how she couldn't learn to speak because she couldn't hear people talk. She had a hard time expressing what she needed and she'd have temper tantrums out of frustration. That's where Annie Sullivan comes in. Switzer rushing to the other side of the top of your mouth and brush all the way to the molars in the back. Helen's parents knew she needed help. So the hired Anne Sullivan to be her teacher. Any did our best to teach. Helen some words by spelling them into the palm of Helen's hand, she gave. Helen, a doll and traced the letters D O L, Al the word doll into Helen's Paul but Helen didn't quite seem to understand. Switzer rushing to the bottom of your mouth brush your teeth too. One day any got an idea using a water pump. She held Helen's hand under the water. And spelled W A T in our the word water over and over and over again. Finally, Helen, got it everything had a name. Helen became obsessed with learning and worked hard to learn a ton of words. Helen, learn to read using a special language called braille she learned to write and she learned to speak. Switzer brushing to the other side of the bottom of your mouth your tongue brush to. Helen went to college. She published books and she started her own foundation to help other people with disabilities. Helen traveled to thirty nine countries met with world leaders and in nineteen sixty four was given a special award the presidential medal of freedom. And Anne, well, Helen and Anne remains lifelong friends, and the movie was made about an he's work called the miracle worker because of their determination and bravery Helen Keller and Annie Salvan are today's chompers heroin. That's it for choppers today. But comeback tonight for more wondrous winning until then. Three. One. Chompers is a production of Gimblett media. Chompers is brought to you by crest and oral B spring cleaning is all about freshening things up. Grownups that might mean finally cleaning out that messy garage. So why not gift that same spring clean feeling your kids crest and oral B have a great selection of dentist recommended toothbrushes for your little sprout and crest toothpastes come and flavors. Your kids. Love like strawberry and bubble gum with the enamel protection. You expect bring new meaning to spring cleaning with crest and oral B. Grownups. Learn more at oral B dot com slash kids.
56: Pan Am in Vietnam
"During the Vietnam War Panamerican. The largest international airline in the United States was flying planes in an out of an active combat zone and this planes were staffed with ordinary flight attendants flying in Saigon. There was nothing glamorous about it. We were in a seven seven and we always dove for the runway and you know we're flying in new warzone Karen. Walker Ryan started as a flight attendant for Pan. AM In nineteen, sixty, nine right in the middle of the Vietnam War it was as dangerous as it sounds you know. Youth this. We. Think we're invincible. There were times. So the she wants when the cockpit asked me, Karen would you go aft and see if we're taking any fire? That really caught my attention the pilot thought the plane may have been hit by sniper fire. He sent Karen to the back to look at the window and check for holes I was moving fast was really. Really, moving as fast as I could through the plain to the tail, the plane was full of our soldiers, and of course, some people have their hands up they want something. And you have to say we'll be right with you be right with you. You know you don't look panicked while you're on a mission like that 'cause everyone's looking at your face when you're a flight attendant and yeah, my heart was beating fast I. Mean there was a lot of adrenaline that went with. That job there was always a sniper problem but. I didn't see any fire I didn't see any holes in the fuselage. So told him, he says, okay good look like we were taking fire. From business insider, this is brought to you by. giving. Brands. You know stories you don't I'm Charlie Hermit. Donald. penam ushered in the Jet Age it offered round the world trips and was the airline of choice for celebrities and US presidents. It was so good at its job that the US government contract with the airline to transport supplies and soldiers during the Vietnam War that meant Pan Am flight attendants were flying into a war zone and catering to troops aboard their planes. The Women Pan Am aren't combat veterans, their civilian airline workers who took a job right in the middle of the biggest war of their generation they put themselves in danger and their experiences had a lasting impact. Even if what they did as not been remembered producer Julia press has their story stay with us. Whoever heard of an airline that goes around the world twice a day every day. If you've heard of Pan Am, you probably have this image of the Golden Age of flying and that's really what it was like at least that's what some former flight attendants told me back in the sixties they were called stewardesses. We were the image of America people used to look forward to a Pan Am flight as one of the best parts of their trip everybody dressed up to go on flights then. Time women are dressing with new line with eighty seven first class entrees. Our meals were catered by maximes. Paris. We usually had a prime rib chateaubriand. If it was roast beef, we carved it from the car at their seat at the heart of all the GLITZ and glamour the real face of the airline. This is from over fifty different countries. That's right. The stewardesses. You're hearing from Helen, Esther Jane Gail and Jill Karen, Bonnie Joy and Marjory, we were living like wealthy people whenever we ran out of black leather gloves we've been a flight to Rome. We got a lot of attention people in the city with come out and watch. US. Get off the airplanes to go out with US stewardess was like going out with the movie star. The airline that's going lace like you never gone before. Not just anyone could become a Pan Am stewardess in nineteen, sixty eight only one out of every hundred applicants got accepted to the company's Training School Marjorie Perry got hired in nineteen sixty six but she tried and failed to work at Pan Am before that was hard to get the job it was they were very selective. There were a ton of requirements to work got any airline in these years but Panam had particularly high standards you needed to to four years of college fluency in a foreign language. Twenty. Twenty vision you can be married or pregnant, and you had to have a certain look. We have to maintain a weight, which for me was my height was five feet five and my maximum weight fully dressed was one hundred and twenty five pounds. Our hair had to be no longer than your job on your makeup had to be tastefully done you. They had specific colors that we could wear. It's also worth mentioning that up until the late nineteen sixties the vast majority of Pan Am stewardesses were white either. Or European. For context, the airline had only started hiring Asians stewardesses in the fifties and African Americans. In the late sixties, I look at my graduation class in any other graduation class that's posted an I can't find me I mean I can. But I look and I think is that me because we all were so cloned we were so alike, you really follow rules. Of appearance and didn't dare digress from them because if you did digress God help you if you're not looking away, Look Marjorie showed me this flight attendant appearance advisory form. It's basically a list of all the things you can do wrong. Your supervisor would fill out if you broke any of the rules. Okay. So you had three ways that your hair could be wrong. One. non-regulation styler link to over all here appearance unacceptable three they could write it in themselves. Then, they have cosmetics appear extreme extensive within a year of training. Marjorie had transferred from a base close to home in New York to try something new in Los Angeles, and there she became one of the flight attendants now eligible to fly trips into an out of Vietnam. They'd be taking troops on rest and recuperation trips or are ours. You're listening to the Armed Forces Radio morning Vietnam, and imagine being a troops stationed in Saigon in the late sixties you turn on your radio and you hear this chipper announcer inviting you to. Use. Capital of the world a great place for five vacation and a great place to meet your own home blue. So say Aloha to be islanders and hello to your our officer ill arrange for you. Panam had struck a deal with the Department of Defense in nineteen sixty six for the cost of just a dollar a month to the US military Panama offered to swoop in and scoop up tired soldiers off the frontlines and shuttle them a little mid tour break. Hong. Kong Manila. Guam Taipei Sydney one of a handful of exotic destinations Bangkok Honolulu Tokyo where they can spend five to seven days of rest and recuperation. For Taiwan Singapore. Penam had flown into war zones before some have credited the airline with helping the Allies Win World War Two it's all self as the chosen instrument of the US government, the second line of. Defense. A nine, hundred, forty, one Time magazine article said the airline functioned as a branch of the defense effort quote. So effectively that it is sometimes seem that the rest of the defense effort still largely composed of creeks and groans in Washington should become an arm of pan. American Hannam during this period had always wanted to be. The flag carrier for the United States the way that British Airways for England and Air Francis for France that is Samuel Scott. He's a curator of aviation with the SF museum at the airport in San Francisco, and he curated an exhibit there called flying the freedom, Birds Airlines and the Vietnam War whether or not paying him had that official designation they definitely considered themselves to be representing. The goals ambitions of the United. States in the postwar world penam was one of several airlines helping to transport troops and cargo into and out of Vietnam but it was the only one offering these aren our flights and really setting up a mini airline sending civilian pilots and flight attendants into a war zone for the sole purpose of giving the troops some our time that was really unprecedented. Were you scared to be flying into a war zone not really. You know when you're in your twenties and you're kind of bulletproof I think I thought I was invincible. Pan Am stewardesses based on the West Coast had the option to bid for these flights. They were volunteers and the aren't ours were mixed in with their usual trips to places like Paris and Rome. You're flying these commercial flights to places all over the world, and then all of a sudden you start flying into Vietnam is there any sort of crash course? No Pun intended or training. No. No I mean, we carried in our purses, these pieces of paper that said in case of capture our second lieutenants under the Geneva Convention. But I don't know how protective that would be. I thought it was a little silly as though if the plane were shot down, we were on the ground. We would have our handbags with card in around wasn't much of A. Comfort. No I mean we didn't have anything like bulletproof vests while the our flights were getting underway. The US government was plucking men right out of high school and sending them halfway across the world to fight the goal was to prevent the spread of communism from north to south. Vietnam. But many sought a losing battle and others thought America just shouldn't be involved at all. By the end of the war, more than one million Vietnamese civilians would be killed and the US government would draft two point, two million men between the ages of eighteen and twenty six. What were your impressions of the soldiers young they were so young a lot lot of them were reading comic books they were like eighteen. And probably had never left home. Never flown in airplane before I can remember thinking that some of them look like they were high school. And they look scared to death the situation in Vietnam was. But the Panam stewardesses knew their mission to bring a little taste of home to the soldiers in the middle of their Vietnam tour. It was a be here. Now thing you're not in a Foxhole, you're in America because an plane. And can have fun. So, they knew what they were supposed to do. But no one told them how to do it. They had to figure it out as they went. So. Can you tell me more about what the flights were like? Big Smile comes on my face. Challenge. And our challenge was to make it. Happy. We pretended little fashion shows walking down like your honor walkway and your comes wearing the latest style in place of their real chicken I would surplus what rubber chicken. Well everybody's just cracked up. Sea Water. To the plane for this reason, why carried it for five years? Just in your handbag out. No. Tow Bank, and I would walk the travels with the they told jokes sang. Christmas. Carols that the guys stake in ice cream foods they couldn't get in Vietnam, my friend, Susan and I decided we would make chocolate chip cookies which we did take the move Vietnam. Then bake them on the plane figuring the aroma something from home when make them happy or feel heard those frozen dough rolls flew from Sausalito to Tokyo before the smell of fresh baked cookies could walked through the aisles of a flight out of Saigon. Some our trips brought soldiers even closer to home most of the guys who were married or in relationships went to Hawaii because m offered reduced price tickets for their wives and girlfriends to meet up with them there let's Lens and six thirty they started getting. A restroom at five o'clock and they have their toilet kit when I go in there and brush their teeth and wash their face and comb their hair maybe shave and then they'd be there ten minutes or whatever. I swear to old spice was the thing that time the whole airplane smelled like old spice when we get to a destination like say Hong Kong. Some of the guys would say, would you help me by a gift for my girlfriend or my wife remember one guy wanted to buy vacuum cleaner for his wife and we talked him into something a little more romantic like perfume or having clothes made but the store did more than advise on gifts for special someone's I. Think everybody was their own little. You know had their own little psychology practice going trying to reassure them everything was gonna be fine. We heard a lot of stories confessions and heard about heartaches. Girlfriends disappearing Pan Am kept custom stationary onboard for the troops to write home some plan for their hopeful return others shared what would be their final thoughts these kids were like the cannon fodder of that war. Oh Gosh and then we take a back. They'd get on the airplane. And they just didn't say a word. They were so quiet all the way back to. Saigon. They're just kind of staring straight ahead. 'cause they were going back to war. And they knew their odds weren't good and so. It was really very traumatic for me to see them. The. Difference going outbound and then inbound back to Psychot-. After the break the stewardesses fly back to the war and the war it's close to home. We're back here again, producer Julia Press. When Helen Davies started flying our and ours at age twenty five she had a habit of connecting with some of the guys on our flights I go talk to the most shy youngest people who seemed very vulnerable. And Talk to them. because. I felt like that would really bolster their confidence. In No. So on my first flight. I got a pen pal because I knew that being able to have a pen pal with a pan. Am Stewardess will make him a rock star and so we started writing Helen kept a handful of pen pals during her years flying Arnuhar's she talked to the troops about everything. But the war she also called some of their parents back home and give them updates on how their sons were doing. She was straddling war and peace which she realized her first flight into Saigon, I had seen all this on television, but it's different when it's live. It's just this vision of Hell right underneath you and it didn't always stay underneath you. Most of the stewardesses I spoke to have their own dangerous war stories from aboard the planes I've been in aircraft that have been hit by fire. Trade surplus for red. You can hear him hitting the airplane things when we would be going in for the landing, it had to be extremely steep. and. They would just dive into the runway because there was shooting all around the moment those soldiers detained the next soldiers were racing on aircrash. They didn't even get their luggage removed in the new ones put on because we had to take off because we were being fired upon while the stewardesses were literally dodging bullets back home. The Antiwar Movement was gaining momentum on college campuses in October nineteen, sixty seven, just a year after the Arnuhar's started thousands of demonstrators opposed to the Vietnam War assembled in the nation's capital for a mass protest. Johnson was trying to calm people down. He assured Americans that the US was winning and the war was close to an end we are making progress. We are pleased with the results that we're getting. We are just a few months later, two, hundred, thirty, two G is killed and nine hundred wounded makes one of the heaviest weeks Vietnam War, and it is not a week. He's just over two days the past two days the north Vietnamese launched a coordinated attack known as the Ted Offensive in the middle of the night, an estimated eighty thousand fighters attacked and sees dozens of provincial capitals. It was obvious. The war was nowhere close to being over. You started to really feel completely different attitude. On the part of the soldiers, people started to realize that militarily, we weren't doing well and with Ted offensive really brought that home the defensive started in January nineteen, sixty eight. From. Early February to early March five, hundred US soldiers were dying each week two months after the initial attack Helen Davy. The stewardess who kept pen pals remembers it became even clearer that this was not a war the US when. I was on the ground in denying. And President Johnson was just making his announcement will America's sons in the field faraway I will not seek nor will I accept the nomination of my party for another term as your president it was the most shocking thing. It felt like proof of how unpopular the war was back home. So to watch the soldiers boarding. After that announcement they were just confused. I think it was almost as if they thought, the country was not backing them in what they had been wanting them to do that. Now they were they were pulling back. and. Why is this and what have we been told? I. Think for the soldiers I. Think it was a huge turning point. It was a turning point for some of the stewardess to. Even at thirty five, thousand feet was hard to ignore what was happening on the ground. Helen experienced it for her pen pals every single one of them got killed. They're buddies wrote to me. And so I stopped doing it. I felt like a jinx. Not, only that. It just hurt a lot. I didn't WANNA put a face to all those people being killed. That just became too hard for me. But. Helen kept talking to the soldiers aboard her plants. She saw herself as an inflight therapist listening to the troops, talk about their experiences and share their feelings I really for the first time in my life saw major trauma. Absolutely right. In front of my eyes in the soldiers you had to be really careful if you woke them up on the airplane because they would startle and they reached for their imaginary gun. They would be exiting our airplane. And you'd wonder how many of them were gonNA live. Where we the last American girls, they were GonNa see you could feel it in their is. They would just look at you like they were memorizing you. Helen and many of her fellow stewardesses visited injured troops on the ground in places like Saigon in Guam I remember walking into the hospital and there was a bed. That was just shaking and there was this. Young, Guy. In there he had no arms. No legs. He was obviously dying he just kept staring. So the only thing I knew that I could do was get as close to him as I could and just kind of. RETURN HIS STARE And I don't know how long we did that I think it was probably at least an hour. And he kept saying you have the face of an angel I'll never forget your face. Well. The truth is it was me that never forgot his face. I'm sure he died that day. The number one thing has voted by the. Vietnam. I have now been authorized for people extending from ninety to one, hundred, eighty days would be at the. The war continued. Some of the stewardesses recall soldiers doing drugs or going through withdrawal aboard their flights the return to the war zone got more and more painful. That was a really fricken somber somber flight. Nobody wanted to go back. Home nobody. I saw people sitting quietly in their seats Sabi one of them in particular was so afraid that he threw up. What do you think was going through their heads when they're on a flight back to Vietnam I could be dead tomorrow. Or, the next. and. What is the reason for this war? No good reason. In nineteen, sixty, nine Pan, AM was flying up to sixteen Arnuhar's Day. That same year Richard Nixon became president. He campaigned on a big promise ring honorable end the war in Vietnam. After he took office, he began a policy of Vietnam Association a gradual withdrawal of US troops from Vietnam but the war would not be over for another six years thousands more US soldiers would die before a ceasefire and as the stewardess watched the troops deplane they knew many of them would not come home alive. Coming back to see you later. So hard you know to hear. This one flight we came into Saigon and I hugged meet as they got off. And I said. I whispered don't be a hero come home. And the lieutenant. was really upset at me for doing that and he he told me I had to go stay in the cockpit tell everyone disembarked. After the break as the war came to an end in American. Troops withdrew we're did leave these women who help them. We're back. Here's Julia. When Samuel Scott he's The curator at the SF O. Museum when he was preparing for his exhibit on airlines in the Vietnam. War He came across some artifacts of the our flights. There's a very, very poignant series of letters, notes of appreciation that were written by soldiers to flight attendants on their flight somewhere written on whatever scrap paper might be on hand. Sometimes, it's the tray liner from their meal tray. Sometimes, it's the BARF Bag Pan Am's annual report from nineteen sixty seven included clippings of letters. Servicemen have written about their Arnuhar's one letter signed by quote, an extremely Happy Group of Gi's said you the stewardesses aboard are not required to give of yourself by working in the doors. Performing a task, your own volition, perhaps satisfy your services, your smiles in your quick to please attitudes. Meaningful to us but there's another thing that struck Scott in the research he did for his exhibit as I started to reach out to other aviation history institutions and. Military History Archives, and other kinds of museums and stuff like that. I realized how little of this material had been collected? The Pan Am stewardesses weren't quite military but they weren't quite civilians. They technically didn't serve but they definitely did serve. In nineteen seventy-three, the last American combat troops withdrew from Vietnam. penam had been gradually phasing out its on our flights but in the last year of the war, the airline was called in to help out one more time. Thousands of south. Vietnamese children have been orphaned by the war and the US government had launched operation baby lift a mission to transport some of them to the. Where they'd wait for adoption. Save Five Air Force cargo plane carrying the first flight that left was a military plane with almost two hundred and fifty kids on board from the government ordered air lift crashed in a rice patty near Saigon just minutes after takeoff there been an issue with a cargo door. But for all anyone knew at the time, the plane had been shot down almost half the passengers died many of them children that day a Pan Am crew. Was told you're flying in tomorrow. One of the people aboard was Karen. Walker Ryan the stewardess who was asked to check her playing for sniper fire. We had seen the day four on the news in the hotel picture of that smoking big airplane and there it was on the runway we taxied right by it. Again, Karen had no special training no fancy equipment. So we got all these bottles ready just hundreds of bottles of milk. And we had all these cardboard bassinet shots that were covered in Pam blew over four hundred babies and children were loaded onto. Karen's plane squeezed into bassinet under each seat strapped two or three to a seat belt. I'm being handed all these babies one after another. Go down the aisle, fight a place to put them. Everyone's screaming. It's hot. All these babies are crying. Once. We got the engines going and got that plane. Cool down. I think out of just sheer exhaustion. So many of these babies fell asleep. Then it was kind of frantic going around and finding the babies that needed to go up to the doctors in First Class. Everyone was on the hunt looking for babies has a look as he breathing I. Really put your face down real close make sure you get a breath. Karen didn't get any advance preparation or special payment for her work on the baby left. She didn't get a medal for her service that day or for any of the on our flight chief Lou. In fact, as far as anyone knows none of the Pan Am, stewardesses got any formal recognition for the danger they put themselves in and that danger didn't just when the are flights did a lot of those guys did come straight out of the field and they were dusted with all kinds of toxins and there was some issues that I know Pan Am flight attendants address. Later saying we were exposed to Agent Orange we should be getting the same va benefits. Are Gi's Scott but we never got that I spoke to one Pan Am stewardess named Gail Larsen. She was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease seven years ago and she believes Agent Orange Exposure on the Arnuhar's could have contributed she wrote a letter to her senators about it saying that the military acknowledges Agent Orange Can Cause Parkinson's I've read it on their websites particularly for the administration and I just wanted to call that to our attention that maybe some of the flight attendants as well had a contract at some of these health issues because of their work flying in and out of Vietnam the letter ends quote. If. There's help available in the form of medical or financial assistance for former Panam flight attendants who were part of the Vietnam War experience. I would appreciate information on how to go about getting it. I'm a single woman with no children have a limited income and will need more care and the not. So distant future that I could not afford. She says she never a reply. Some of the pilots on these flights received combat pay for flying into a war zone. Some got certificates of recognition and appreciation from the US military the flight attendants did not. And it's not just formal recognition that's missing. In fact, most people don't know them for anything beyond the gourmet meals and swanky uniforms. Here's Helen Davey. We used to feel quite insulted at the way people would think of us because. They just wanted to hear juicy little stories about what happens between the stewardesses and men. And Oh my goodness. It was so much more than that award those Pan Am planes. Helen, learn that she had a knack for connecting to people for listening to them seeing soldiers on hospital beds watching them jolt up when she woke them from a nap, she was face to face with raw human emotion. It was like nothing I had ever seen these were the faces of trauma and I I could just feel it. It was thick in the air. I just wanted to help the Mall Helen became Dr. Davy she studied psychoanalysis and started a career as a therapist with a focus on suffering grief and loss I learned more about people on airplanes than I have ever learned in school. It was the best education in the world. In the years after Vietnam many of the stewardesses kept flying for Pan Am. But the world was changing a Pan Am and other airlines stewardesses challenged pregnancy and marriage bands and weight limits block stewardesses pushed for more inclusive hairstyles. So they could wear afros and braids male stewards fought to be hired even the name of the job itself stewardess was changed to flight attendant. And life moved on. We'll all these other hugely important changes were being made. The aren't flights faded into history. The women who flew them didn't get credit. For the most part the ones I spoke to told me, they were okay with that to me a piece of paper rewarding your service for now it doesn't make any difference. I know what I did and I know it did a good job when I did that everybody wants to be recognized. I don't live my life in the past and grateful for the memories I still view it as something I did for the war effort something positive. We got great pleasure and satisfaction knowing that we were doing our job and we were helping put a smile on the soldiers faces that we were taking back and forth. But even if they say, they don't need the credit these women deserve it we should know who they are my Name is margery Perry I'm Joy Miller I'm astronauts name is Jill and it was Savino at the time and my last name is Nichols. Now My name is Gail Larson man tween name is Jane. would. CANNOLI. My Name is Dr Helen. Davey my name is Bonnie Jones Moon I'm Karen Walker Ryan I was a stewardess with Panamerican and was one of the gals who aren't our flights in and out of Vietnam in the late nineteen sixties. Those are the women of Pan Am Julia Press reported and produced this episode with Me Charlie Herman and Sarah One. This is the first episode of our new season and we're really excited to be back. We heard a lot of you between season. So thank you so much for your emails like Chris who called us on a long drive to point out that green eminem's also have a very specific connotation press. You should check out the election posters we mentioned in our EMINEM's episode. There's a lot there. We'll put a picture of it in our next newsletter and thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts about the Tampax episode our facebook group. Someone born in Oakland and a longtime fan of the Oakland as one of my favorites was from Howard said at his school, the boys watched a movie about the as winning the nineteen seventy three world series while the girls watch their sex ED video and he was in Pittsburgh he wasn't even as fan. Keep those messages coming you can email us at bt, y? BE AT INSIDER DOT COM, join the facebook group and be sure to leave a good review were ever you're listening we love hearing from you and it really helps get the word out about the show. Special thanks to Jeff Quinlan. Doug Miller. The Pan Am Historical Foundation Nancy mcallister at World Wings International John Lewis and Linda Freyre at the Pan Am museum foundation bog seconds Al. Topping Don Cooper and John Carlos. Marshall. Thanks also to Sarah Rose Perot a really great article about Pan Am stewardesses and the Vietnam War for the Washington Post. Article is called flight status. Also, thanks to work soldier letter readers John Dietrich Ethan guys. And our very own NAS. The News report you heard came from a universal newsreel NBC and CBS News Armed Forces Vietnam Network Radio Clips from Pan Am his foundation old radio programs, dot us, and the Internet Archive. Thanks also declare dares and Tyler Murphy at insider. Bill Maas are sound designer music from Audio Network John Galore Casey Holford composed theme Michaela Bly is our editor Dan Bobkov is the podfather and Sarah. Wyman is our executive producer. To you by is a production of insider audio.
Helen Garner: from Paris to Moonee Ponds
"This is an ABC podcast on the way to the cinema. T- said a must get petrol after after the movie which we hated and walked out of early we set off up. The Napoleon highway are remembered. Her remark about the Pixel but fearing to be thought. Bossy sid acid- nothing. Halfway up the Security Hill. We ran out. We cross the road to a hamburger shop to ask with the nearest petrol station. Moore's we had a hamburger. It was early evening still lot. The Greek woman squeezed lemon juice onto the mate. Food restore leashes we carried. The JERRYCAN cannot the hill to the petrol station aging as we walked and talking happily we filled the can took it back to the car. Did the necessary and drove calmly home. Helen Gadot reading a passage from her. Dari written in nineteen eighty-four. Helen is my guest on conversations. Today she is of course the author of many books including Monkey grip the I own this house of grief and the spare room. Helen is just published the first volume of her Dr as covering the years. Nineteen eighteen. Seventy eight to nine hundred eighty seven the entry skip all around. How is life in mind from writing and work to parenting love affairs? The quest for the right pair of shoes and the pleasures of Mowing Grass Ela. Helen Welcome back to conversations. Thank you thank you very much. You always kept Dara right from when you were a little kid. I don't remember when I started. I think ours will be might be a teenager. It's diary seems to have been part of my life that pretty much as long as I. I can remember tier of any idea what you would have been writing about back then. No I don't I really don't and I burnt everything. This is one of my great conflagrations when our lift time to go to university in Melbourne. I burned everything in the incinerator in our backyard. Much to my mother's disappointment and post the whole point of it was that so she wouldn't read anything but I don't know what they was limit to. How did Dari rotting change in as you got older? Say after you moved to university left home well actually I think that when ours at university I probably didn't care a diary because this is a hell l. of longtime ago like six years ago but I don't remember keeping a diary then I'll think my life was a lot of fun and always working wasn't working hard always a student but you're working having fun. Yeah so when did you start writing in your Dr. Moore's disciplined writing regulate maybe every three day probably when I was living in those big hippie households in the seventy S. I think I don't know why are just founded necessary to write things down. I wasn't thinking okay. I want to be a writer. I'm going to practice every day. It wasn't like that it was as if my life was out of control in some way our first marriage breakdown when when my daughter was daughter was only two to an abusive and suddenly our famous off a single mother and her head to bicycle. Get my shit together very fast and I needed to Stabilize myself I'm saying I'm saying this now. In retrospect but I don't know what I was thinking about it at the time. I suppose it's a way to make sense and solve. Not only what's going on around you better way to make sense of all of the internal emotional Chiasso thinking having having to sit down yes well it it it. It's discipline I suppose in in you could call it discipline even though I didn't think had a purpose because I never imagined myself I never thought that I would be published writer or just didn't because you know are kind through university in early sixties and back then. Not much fiction was published in Australia. People people got this draft published in London and then eventually kind of drifted back here and I. I can't university to Tom. When the great writers were pretty much all men and the the ones that we studied and I thought not only a more nor man arm not European or I am not English more American and are just live down here the bottom of the earth and nothing is going to be interested anybody much so who are didn't have a burning ambition but on our new that even back then that that are could put a sentence together at that are liked putting reading sentences together if guide me certain pleasure just to do the technical thing where you fussy about? What sort of book you wrote in or what? Time of day that you'd ride as it became more of a regular thing will. I liked bound book. Sometimes I'll get you know. Sparks one but Back in those days as after I started actually publishing and used to guard down to my publishes office mcfee Google. They used to have these kind of sample books. That were made up by the printer. I suppose and I were just filled with empty pages but they were bound and occasionally have have those line ran the office and occasionally that would give me one of them with a passion. Costa was so soulard and they were bound beautifully bound. Sound like a real book and the pipe attended to have certain quality that welcomed Inc.. We careful about waste. Oh he stored them is hid him. You Know I. He hid them on anybody that wanted to snoop cooler because it's not like a lock them away in a safe or anything where there was a fair bit of snooping. We'd only knows he else. Did you ever come across so discover that anyone had been reading your doors. Yes yes I did. I didn't walk in and see the matters or anything but I can't remember now. Roger member those one guy in the house and he's Newtonian Diagnostic Don history. And he told me that he knew I'd snooped on his because he had laid here. Nancy drew a certain position Shen and moved to notice it. was there not whisked open. And how do you know that he's snooped on your admitted I think he admitted yeah didn't do Gordon through the more. My my first husband wants it to me that snoopers never find anything they lock an audit found that to be the case. Did you handwriting change much. which is you moved into adulthood well? It's it's slightly more SP- Roy. I suppose there's an entry in in his published set of doors from nineteen eighty three when your daughter recognizes your handwriting and some graffiti toilet. Do you remember what it said. Yes do was. Because it wasn't recent with Brent teacher printing printing on blackboard. I think it said I was somebody somebody else had written. What happened to all the graffiti and I had written underneath It was fun for a while but it got too personal and daughter daughter came up in the toilet. Said I've seen this looks like you're writing. Didn't shake wars. Why why does these volume Helen Begin? Nine hundred seventy eight. Why that year? Well it's because that was the point at which the diary stopped being boring and embarrassing boring and embarrassing how we g too obsessed with my romantic entanglements. My Yeah just boring whingeing stuff you know the the worst of the sort of Monkey Grip era. Who and I where when I when I went back one day to look to see what I wrote about the Whitlam Dismissal government and found that I hadn't even mentioned or thought I don't know Gosh this doesn't this is a little bit too Inward turned and our our red forward in time and are came upon this point. where I I was in Paris with my daughter in nineteen seventy eight? We lived there briefly and there. It seemed to me that the book stopped being totally. Yeah about more interstate in our starts looking around division pay more attention to was around me and just for its own sake and not only how impinged upon me. So what happened to all those diaries that you were riding up until nineteen seventy eight. Or they're the ones that are burnt. That was the sickened conflagration. I I did. I burnt them. heartbe only beckon minorities are Brenton so that no one else would find them a why. Oh I don't know I just wanted to destroy them. I had a feeling of wanting to commit destruction and so I made a fire in the backyard. Narberth a lot to Gauges I know I really enjoyed it. Enjoyed watching it all. Go up some of the things you put a tear it up. You know it's not like loose loose sheets they you have to tear take them out of the binding and also didn't do it carelessly. I looked through each one because there were things in there that my daughter had written when she was a little girl who some little drawings that she donald cartoons that we've done together that are treasured and so I got him out and kept them but satirist are burnden. It's exhilarating burn something. It really is quite thrilling. It sounds like it was kind of an emotional clearing out like Mary condo but if your psyche you page by page yeah yeah it was fun to do and I and I'm always Edwin telling this story that I haven't regretted this for a second. I don't regret well. It gets as you suggested before there's a sense in which those Dr is. All those experiences aren't lost because they are what would transformed into monkey. Okay great you'll first novel. Did he go about using the Dr. As in the writing of that book required blatant are are just you see I never in those days. I thought that a book was necessarily a novel. Authority is going to write a book We try tremendously. Thought they did to fantasize by then that one day our mind are thought it would be a novel because that's what our ridge red huge numbers of novels. But so I don't know I thought I didn't know how to invent characters or or to invent situations and I was involved in in this Rut painful love affair with a drug addict and a naturally decent keep ahead together ours routing and account of he says it went and as as the the affair drew to. It's necessary secetary painful conclusion. I could see this coming up and authoritarianism. Actually there's a story here. It's got to visit end coming up that CONC- so I thought what are the State Library. Every day. I reading my daughter to school. Kin were if she was and that gave me a far amount out of time every day so then are just get on my bike again and piddle down at the State Library and talking with me a couple of the notebooks and another notebook refresh one and I would sit in the reading room in the State Library which back then was a place. We silence was ruthlessly imposed and heavy volume of the the diary. Open my left and have this notebook and I would just greet through the diary and art copy out by hand in this other clean notebook. The bits that are thought edited to the story that I thought I could sense in Holy Smith did that took me I just but I really really loved it because it was the first time I'd ever felt that our head of project was a writing project and because always doing it every day a and because I had to go to a special place in order to do it it was give me a sense of being almost like it was a job which ah I haven't had an actual since nineteen seventy two and so it was quite gratifying to me to have readers loved monkey grape. It's sold really well but they were reviewers who criticized it as they did later fiction of yours for being too concerned with sort of small family matters as you criticized for having you know domestic concerns or middle class concerns and those in the days where women were cold at work was called small canvas. That was a phrase that people used. It wasn't taken seriously. You didn't writing about household measures or parents and children was considered to be less worthy than in our politics in Indonesia or something like that. There's a moment in the Dari where you walk past a store in. It's got a print of a van Gogh painting of a bedroom audit any look at that and it makes you feel better about the work that you're you're doing because it's just a room with a bed table in it and it and it was beautiful when you looked at it. It did something to you I think. Really yeah I think feminism has done a lot of work in this regard and that. It's your Tony some real buffet. Who would say or you? Can't you know this is really boring. It's all about families and an in households because it has been born in a foreign people rush. These are crucial relationships. And that what happens in in households He's playing out of enormous forces that that are working in the world. Are Maybe the Esley saying to me one time when when I don't WanNa Prize Vodno what the children's bar-coding can she said to me. You can really valid those little domestic things like like food food dribbles down. The front of cupboards was sorry. Thrilled was it. Even these Dory's which unlike the novels weren't written didn't for publication they such precise observation they written with such coordinates. Were you surprised by the quality of the rotting when you went back and looked through these given that it was a Dr not intended from obligation. Yeah Abu Sometimes. I was pleasantly surprised and I saw what pleasantly we surprised me was that I could see that actually working at it that I wasn't just thinking. Oh I'll just jot down what happened. Today they're sit down and put it dight and an Thanh John and our tried to write coherently. I mean that was the point of it really. The coherence I think was if this is my point in in just swap alie noting something and gave me a great deal of pleasure and relief to George so when I went back and looked at some of the early stuff some of it was no what was embarrassing about it was usually content yard just sort of sloppy things that are wouldn't interested anybody else but gradually gradually it seemed to become more thoughtful and kind of fruitful to me. When you you decided that you publish these exerts from the Dr is did you let yourself tweet or or improve a word or punctuation the queen of punctuation even in a hasty Dari would do actuation terribly? Unhappy all stop and but but that was what what I learnt from Artesia. Mrs Dunkley who I've written about in the past. She had taught me the joy over of getting it right because when you get something writes in technically this kind of chunky feeling where everything stable and this means an enormous amount to me and it's in a sense Stats the Dari is what Malcolm gled- will would call my ten thousand hours. He's Audie that people that are good at something. You don't get to be good at something unless you've done ten thousand dollars over and it also makes sense that you wouldn't do it sloppily. Just like a a athlete. Wouldn't if I was swimming in training. Wouldn't do the a stroke incorrectly. Strike to get to the end of the pool. You know you're trying to your a musician trying to make a sound that somebody else mar ought to listen to or even that you yourself locked listen to because your the first reader or the firstly small. We concerned about other people's privacy. Helen learn. I mean you had to have that first question about yourself. Can you better put this out there. But what about the people who are in your life in these. Yes I did think about that. Sure I will. I thought when I first started choosing ward putting the book or you know discarding what I wouldn't put it in. The book are thought okay. I'm going to have have to ask people about this. I thought wall not gonNA ask him now. All ask lighter all work on this text just as if it weren't going to be become public I'll just try to make it into something that I am happy with and because I think this is what I noticed this now. There's a tremendous fear anxiety about what you're allowed to say. And I hate and fear that and I'm prepared to two fighters and that doesn't mean I don't care about the effect of water rush rush on other people but means that I I don't want to censor myself at the beginning. Sometimes I've taught little courses courses taken a so-called masterclass and our member one particular one a couple of years ago where there were about ten or twelve people in the room and each one of them had a fantastic idea for for what they wanted to write but as they went on I realized how they they were terrified of something and I couldn't work out what it was. I mean. There's obviously what Somebody Hillary mental novel 'cause proper fear which is the fee that you must feel before any peace lisa creative work because it shows that you've got a healthy relationship to what's difficult about it but these people they keep saying who's permission to our have ticket kit before I do this research or Who who what do I have to get people to sign? I don't believe it. I didn't know what they were talking about. And I think this coming out of universities this whole ethics committee sort of deal which draws me screaming round the twist. Can't stand it and and I say what it does to people. It makes a fried to white into the territory the longing to white into and and are numbered by the end of the day. I just wanted to heart on them. You know I wanted to say look. No one's GONNA come into the room behind you and tight and run out and publish the book at advocating. When you starting at get in there and Bligh's away then later worry about it then think okay? Who will this hurt? Is it all right for me. He decide this had. Why feel about this person? Do I want to ask this person's permission but get the thing written. I an affiliated with great vehemence. Ah Really worries me that people sort of become so kinda pussyfooting around anyway. I had this thing that was about to become a book. They are thought. Okay we'll have to conceal everybody's identity that same decent thing today so our headquarters thought with this wonderful idea. I'd give each person what I thought over certain the high near ICK epithets we and I thought are really thought they were going to work is really dumb but I greatly enjoyed enjoyed it. I loved giving names to people. Early headed headed one or or a married man or The born again or the Laura student and I saw you buy shirt you know when it was all done in our practice ridiculous things are still thinking that it was sort of cool because I was trying to make the whole thing kind of float in our didn't want it to be way down by people going all that must be so and so you know I just wanted the thing to float float on and I figured that the more floated the more other people would seat himself. I mean strangers who reading it would feel that it had something. Go with them. Because it wasn't about me it was about the world and it was about how people what sorts of people there are in the world and how they relate to each other and and one thing on our fisheries that are not unique and my experiences and not unique and what I was hope for is that other people will read my stuff and go kart. That could be me. And so so here on wars with my manuscript bristling with these high America Foods and my editor whose name Miss Join Peace. And she's a person of great delicacy and skill. She said Look Helen. I'm not so sure about the America. Befits okay what one was always out right and she said no really. I don't think people go to keep them in the hits for one hundred fifty pages or have logged ladies and come on. So is there a deflated and she said why. Don't you give them initials bug that it's awful. I hate that and then I went away and and thought about it and I thought no. It's actually really good idea. And I thought of other books that I knew that had initials thought I'll give everybody an initial just won and weren't put a full stop after diva daringly thought so but then when it comes to the homeric some of them are loved so much and they seem to be doing so much work as phrases so some people have gotten initial and America fish or some have. Just go home Eric. With if it like the born again or the born agains brother. I just thought that the phrase the born again is doing such an enormous amount of work an on one person. I asked listener in my diary. I hope it's okay this just one little scene near that Joran and I said I'm giving you an initial Ange uncivil initial. If you give him an I said Oh and she said No. You can't call me. Oh don't call me. I want to know circumstances what she said. Well who you know because the story of how awful book that we already in the seventies that was about masochistic affair. Okay so I try and did or I forget what got some other. Some bloke is now called out the door is open as you say in in Paris nine seventy eight where you and your daughter who you give the initial came to a living. Why were you there? Helen what brought you to Paris. In nineteen seventy well ninety seventy-seven monkey grip came out and all right then got a literature board grant after that which I didn't even know they existed until after that and also my grandmother Dr and she left me three thousand dollars and I thought for once of glue bit of money and I could go somewhere an an arcade go somewhere interesting and archetype. My daughter with me and I had various friends who were in England and and one particular fringy lived in Paterson Arison Mono we just went to. London hung out there for a while and she was in school there for a couple of weeks and came out with a cockney accent. took her better week week. She say come home from school and say four piece to get a portion. What the Hell is a portion? And she said that's what they call efficient ships here portion so that was fun anyway. Then we went to France and that was hard of course I was very lonely and because it sounds like a dream to be riding in May Harris. Now why is it a dream you know. It's not well it wasn't to me. I put her into school and did she start. Speaking with a French accent. Picked our children pick up a language in about ten minutes. She offered by the end of she was there for one semester and then she went back to style it today with her dad who who just had a baby with with you sick and wife and she was very keen to be involved in that so why she went. But Yeah but obviously 'cause I always used to living Lena's big households and being surrounded by swarms of people walking in and out the whole time and their award in this flooding parison. I mean I was sharing with a friend always very fond of but he was gay and he was out cruising. You know who I mean. It was really quite wild back then. It's always lonely in our trying to write and always making a mess of it and more I. There was no good and I knew it was good because when I started to more publishes when they came through Paris they said this is no good so it wasn't the happiest time you came back to Melbourne. How did MOONEY ponds? Compared to life in Paris well kick to Melbourne and it seemed to me. I've been away about eighteen months and the the sort of seen that there was that had been there when our lift seem to have not evaporated but the households that are new. Boughton are longer were and people were beat older and formed up into couples. Some of them and gone leased More separately and I couldn't find a place to live so I just roved hither in your own until I found this place in Mooney ponds and never even been to Mooney ponds before that and are found this house and was norris. And what kind of encounters did you have with paypal scientist on the straight back in Melbourne. That made you realize yeah there is. There's a difference being here than being in Paris. Paris was Sheikh. You know everybody was well-dressed and and I served INKATA's our current didn't know how to break into any sort of social life there. I sorta did admit a man there who came to Australia with me and we got married a bit but Not always when I go back to Mooney ponds or a loved about it was it was deg are loved the dragging Ustralian Australian or still do this some kind of from modesty in ordinariness about it that I greatly valued on still. Do A lady helped you fix your bike. I chain one day as you were writing off and he thought I hear that's a quality I liked. Remember that story in the door Eastman. Yeah I'm riding along in the train popped opt of this Brockett sort of listening to call in and I was trying to our did know how to fix it and these women comes walking along when she stopped and said Oh no. You're trouble and Narcissus. Look I don't know how to fix it. And she just looked at it carefully like a sensible person and pointed to where the problem what she said. Look it's stuck there. And she and she gave me a bunch of Kleenex bag and we fixed it and I go to my back in right away and filled completely filled with joy. I thought this is great. This is the kind of place I WANNA leave. Where lady will stop in the street and give you a bunch of Kleenex? I want half dirty fingers This is conversations cassation's with Sarah cannot ski. ABC Radio's can subscribe to conversations podcast to find out more just hate to ABC dot net Dodi you slash conversations How back in Melbourne? You're living again with your daughter Alice Alice and right through the Dr. is you write about. Who with such delight? Have you just not included the Times that you'd had a fod or she was being a pain nine. Oh you're infuriated. She wasn't. She wasn't a very infuriating child. She was an only child. Don't forget an only child mother. Charlie child is a very particular kind of relationship. You sort of a package deal in a way but no she was very easy. Tried to get on with and she was not one of those girls who get nasty routine I just when she took it up to me few times and you know I sort of leave in tears when she would criticize me. No she's a real trooper my daughter she seemed remarkably tolerant about it all the dramas that that were going on with you. Has she put up with our DART. But it certainly On ever worried about ever getting interested in drugs. What do you mean why well? Because she saw did to people. We're back in the seventies. There are lot of druggie people around and she sensible girl. Just look what was going on and also you know. She's a bit of a BRAINIAC under year. I have a lot of respect for my daughter as well as love. She bought a lot of music into your house is practicing on the cello and the piano and you began piano lessons to. Why did you want to learn the piano? Hannah these points you live never learnt. Music is the child's couple of my sisters learned the piano for some reason our didn't know why I John Hoult I because I love music and are particularly crazy about the music of Joyous Bach and and I had this feeling that I'd like to be able to place some of those very we simple places of his and I just thought well maybe ask chance because I had a PM. We had a house that Marta was learning on. And and of course she galloped away to the races on it and being a natural so I won't have a joy so I found this teacher and he was crazy batok walk. He said when. I'M NOT GONNA teach your body mutates you Bartok's microcosms took my k.. Learn those that was fantastic. I loved it. The thing thing is learning trying to learn an instrument when you middle-aged it's really hard because you don't pick things up quickly anymore and you also you very very well. All I was very I. Making mistakes couldn't bear it every time I made a mistake or go to the beginning. The novel that you're writing rotting this time. which is called? The children's bar has a carried to Athena who's playing piano. I think she described his playing at like a mouse was some other person in the household mainly told her that that she played like a mess. Someone told me I played like a mouse. The manual living with wasn't happy with you. I mean it must have been pretty awful because I. I love playing scales. Cassia kind of the Darrell at easy but so but you know a place girls endlessly and must have been driving in crazier you an Our played together for your family. One Christmas implied so music together. How did that come about? Whose idea was that? Oh Mine of course I mean she thought to be so great to play with somebody and I was so bad that Knob. You would wanNA play with me but our big big than I said. Look Judy's office. Play these ridiculous. Great Bob's Bob's piano piece and could you play the baseline over it on your chiller. And she very patiently did and Greg remember what it was what was called runaway revolt. By had she had a name like Muriel. Smithers or something like that. One of those people who currently right music for children did it. Bring the house down that Christmas Christmas gift. I must say brought the house down one of the things that kept leaping out at me reading these days. How is how many references they added shoes? Eurozone Roane your daughter's people you see on the street. What did shoes tell you? What do shoes tell you about? Someone's character why are they so important to you. They say they seem to carry an enormous amount of meaning and a union psychologist. I want once said. We're talking about shoes and she was interested in imagery and symbolism. I said to her. I'm not that interested issues. Any more I used to be crazy about them and be always trying more embodiment spending lots of money on them. She said No. I'm not interested. March anymore said what does it mean. And she's not being interested she said well I think it because we've stopped being sexual beings and casino the crudest thing verse of symbolism about a shoe. It's a theme that something else gets poured into so it's a kind of it's a symbol. The legit you can. I'm glad I don't you spill. But yes always quite taken aback by. That didn't ring true. Oh absolutely quincy about shoes. I really meant a lot to me. But but she said also that said this union that she said the shoe is where you touch the ground. It's where a person connects with the earth. So in that sense it does tell you something about how people feel about themselves are member. I had an old friend who used to say to me crazy. You think that shoes main something you think. They've got meaning and I felt felt that they they did. And I e you look play blue. Don't clean issues but you see a man wearing a good suit and your run ars down and look at his shoes and their shabby and down at heel and I haven't been polished you immediately. Think or he doesn't give a shit or he's Lazy Lazy or you know you make moral judge. Our make moral judgments people who wear tearing stellato's that would actually cripple them are severely disapproving and people who wear those awful clunky sandals middle aged women. Were I've had few those peers myself in this all comfortable comfortable wonderful you look with anything. She's given up. It's really it's language it's a language and because you're is training and train aim to notice details. You're always observing and noting down on these stories what people are wearing and how that seems to affect them. You've got a beautiful entry about stripes and the psychological effects of wearing stripes. Yeah well did something. I feel quite strongly about especially I mean the meaning the symbolic meaning of what people wear came up again. I come up against this again. And again in the modern thoughts of young women about their rights. It's I guess I I came up against this winter's writing the stone the idea being that you could wait. What if you liked and eat head head? No meaning that it wasn't say it wasn't sort of signifying any signal to the outside world if you were walking around in a club club. Four drunken men at two o'clock in the morning and you were wearing this little tiny sliver of silk that the idea that that had no meaning as always struck me. As kind of ludicrous and dangerous. I remember being in court one time not long ago I just was. It's not something I was writing about or just wandered into a court and in the dock with three people one was no one he was on the witness. Stint this crazy crazy guy who shot someone in the head during a drug deal and he was very noisy and flamboyant character from up Brunswick someway and in the dark were two young women and they were both dressed in the sorts of closed at I would think would be appropriate for for a cocktail party or really high end glamorous but it's it was a slightly trashy evening event they were wearing these tiny little soo-keun things like mermaid would wear that stopped way above their knees and I had sandals with towering delivers and they had straps that when the way right up to the knee stuttered with little sparkling jewels and the hair was cascading down and they in full makeup up and always looked to them. Ask for my God. Who are these people? And I. I can't understand or O'Connor understand. How person would go to court dress black that? I'm what I'm saying. Is that clothes and shoes vera language. And you have to get command affect language. I think if you got to move through the world in any authoritative way and there's a certain power that comes with physical presentation with physical beauty in particular that you very conscious of of a woman's power beautiful woman and wandering what's your power if that's a traditional kind of power to be beautiful for what's my version of power well personnel called the Union in the diary actually says that to me he says to me and once your how have you got power. Remember the the expression he uses and didn't like being asked that question our amendment making a narcissist Corey said the answer wars six and using my brains but by six are meant and it would never occurred to me to at wouldn't have when I was a young woman to get out there and flaunt Mr off in the way that young women do now I mean are there are probably always. It's been rather puritanical in that regard. I mean I was not puritanical about having sex with lots of people but the idea that you would walk out in the world it and say well Fellas here I am come and get it. Which is what our think card of clothing is saying? That would never have occurred to me because czar was prim. Pure Zhan in in that part of myself. You know I I Bras born in nineteen forty two and The world is our live threw. It didn't produce a person with those thoughts about herself and also wasn't beautiful. You know I wasn't beautiful. I didn't have or didn't have gorgeous locks and our didn't didn't never learn how to put Mike up on and I I've never thought of myself in that way he wrote about your mom bringing a family family photo to Christmas and the reaction. You have to seeing that picture of yourself Yeah I don't know how old are was in that photo more likely about maybe a living or sorry and are it just looks plain. It was kind of tragic to me. And I it was one of those moments where you lose yourself and you think. Rg that's really really said. Hopefully we'll little more liberal pleated skirt and my little socks. Yeah very early on in the journals you right. I have a lot out of trouble with self disgust and a lot of self criticism and self doubt in these pages about your haircuts. Your work moral failings. We use surprised spy the intensity of of self judgement. He no no because I don't still like that today. More great self legislator flagellating speed strong I am I do find myself to a person of many witnesses and failings actually this moment of like dimensioned the graph to this book. I came upon this after. I'd pulled the book together and I I was reading Primo Levi her my hugely admire and in network of his periodic table. I came upon this sentence. We we are here for this to make mistakes and to correct ourselves to stand the blows and hand them out. Thought thank thank you. That's I think this book's about I'm always really glad that he added that lost part to stand the blows ORC. Everybody has to stand the blows and hand them out and that that part was what made me sees opponent authority. Because that's what I've done in spoken spoken. I mean that's what the the person that the me that speaking in this book is doing standing boys but also handing them out what I found wars when all went back over these Dar es are found. How much pain are head commissioner? Many painful ex had committed and how how are had heard people and cheated on them and yeah the things that one does and our are win are rid beck. The it was quite excruciating in many ways to save my own high-handedness in more personal relationships often and School fullness that I felt towards people who say at wake and just the unattractive parts of me but by the same token as I kept going and of course are the how to ease or have longer or is that it took me to put this together our continued to read as I was due into movies and watch TV. And and and listen to what my friends told me about the lives and the Soros of people and triumphs of them. And I I just. It's got this growing sense of myself as not such a monster. I thought I thought that I was in with with everyone else that we're all in it and there was nothing unique about my behaviors and I went through some terrible two. Am Torture fits when asked Pauline is together and on your wake up and I think I can't publish this. I can't do this an annex to speak to my editor and say there and and she just patiently listened to me and she said Helen. Look or just want to tell you that. When I'm reading these are often feel this could be my marriage or this could be anybody are knows marriage or their relationship with their children? She said it's not just you and win that sort of I finally managed to Accept that fact or are had this strange happiness that came over me and are still feel this. It's kind of comradely fueling fuelling. I'm not unique. I'm not uniquely awful and I'm not unique in any way that that. Where only this miss together of orphan and slogging our way through and and we bearing abode blows we standing the blase in handing them out? Both sides fete equation are Ari quickly important. The other Subject that you're wrestling without. I think that's too strong. A word in these years is Christianity. You you have a a friendship a very close friendship with a West Australian rotter who you call Jay and you ask him a lot about his Christianity. It's clearly something that you were attracted two two but also resisting. In some way I was brought up in a family that my parents weren't religious at all so we went toy store. Anything never went to church. this was of interest to my parents press the university. I was in Anglican Women's College College. And I had a bit of a religious rearing spurs and I went and got baptized whereas about nineteen and then our dischord barriers for quite some years. Stop Talk Guys. Church the in our winning to that. All lefty hippy world. Where of course these things were despised and That certain point in my life that the story he covers. I started to have the strange experience of feeling that there was a presence. NIIMI and and I very hard to talk about this. 'cause I'm not embarrassed to talk about it anymore because I've discovered in my reading how common knock communities but it's It's something that differently. Not Unique but I felt that things were going badly in my wife and very unhappy and fraud and And they came these prison spiders since behind me in a room and our beaches sitting in a room working sitting at my desk and anarchy feel that there was something in the room behind me and I wasn't frightened of it because it was benevolent. I thought this prisons is although I am Awestruck by it. I knew that it wasn't didn't wish me any harm or knew that it was e- tremendously powerful. It was a powerful force and in order to suit sort of in innocent time at enough to give it a name in my mind are called at the Mardi force and It would source to Shimmer Shimmer into the room and then it would seem out again and are never did turn around because I knew something in me told maybe fi did turnaround are would be obliged to bow to it. That was so immensely powerful and it would effect knowledge its existence or allow rush into my four winners. It would demand from me some kind of aw change. I didn't know what that change would be on us. It would be changed for the good but I didn't know what I would have to give up so I never turn around and our our chart to tell my husband about this and he was very frightened he thought I was cracking up home. And you know I was scared that might be a worse to Bush I Or did actually speak about. These is to Tim Winton. Who was the army full on Christian that are new and he said if something comes up to me in the dark are recall out and asked to identify itself but are never even had the nerve to do that but he also said look hell he said You I think it is I think is the Holy Spirit? And that's all he ever said he didn't sort of lecture me or anything because he's not that kind of Christian but eventually this being stopped coming and you know my life kind of went through crisis and our came out the other side and began to put my life together again and I kind of missed. It sounds in the Dariz like some of the the rituals and language each of Christianity practically useful to you. There are times when you find yourself. Reciting the Lord's prayer after waking up in distress while having argument commend with your daughter. And it's like these techniques that you you feel can help give a bit of shape or solidity to emotional turmoil. Yes I think that's what those things are for our. I think those ritualized things in any religious faith that the they're there to To sort of stabilizes terrible moments they poems really 'cause we we know that as human beings we have to suffer and lose things and love and not be loved in return or people that we love going to die we gonna fail again and again. We're all GonNa die and I think that religions locked poetry and philosophy sophy and music and art. That's what they're all for. They saw weaken leave with the the knowledge of these things that we kind of have to endure and I also of course are expressions of joy and praise and block any poetry or music. Praise can come to you moments where you just need you need some formal statement affords as you're going through. Because you can't articulate yourself are found that particularly when I was when I was in my thirties. I guess and people on you you start to die. People who don't have drug overdoses or in car crashes or things like that and and I remember how terrible those funerals often more because these people had no religious ritual to draw. Ron and I didn't even know that someone one was supposed to stand up the front and say we're here today because so and so has died Roy I alluded to greatly greatly value. That the shape of things that's made by in a Purple Passion for Human Spirit. Yes and that some more more beginning of a funeral someone stands up the front and his dearly beloved. We are gathered here today to an Taika from there are not i. I just don't have people can manage without those things. One of the difficulties that was going on during these ease the break-up of your second marriage and and you in your Shay has with your daughter and the law student one of those who gets the American Epithet. You have a discussion in the kitchen about falling in love and you giving him advice about how that changes as you get older. You remember what you will wisely telling on you early forties. Yeah when are read did that. I really had to force myself to put that encounter in because I just thought of this. This young law student leaving the House and we were washing up together or something in them and we were just talking about falling in love and he said words the victor of humane that you can and you can sort of see it coming Vince over against or prepare for it and our wisely said Oh yes you can. You can decide how much he's over you gotta let go into it and that is just so not doc drew. What sort of feelings do you have towards that young Helen? At how do you look back on her. Wish she learn how to be alone more and to tolerate aloneness like a must going to say like most people which she's or how often preface. AM description of myself. Does your in this regard but just the vision of myself crashing for one one love affair to the next or sexual fear to the next is rather dispiriting. I I had liked to just lie. Etchingham suddenly remembering remembering. What are we used to go to yoga class? This would be back in the seventy s and the teacher was a An older woman Italian very lovely woman and she said to me once on our she didn't own about my private life but she said to a you know as you get older. Helen you might find perhaps funded not necessary to have a partner and I thought aw phooey authority. That is so not gonNA happen but she. It was a piece of wisdom she handed to me and I are never the forgotten us and she was right but you know for years are off nonsense Habashi. Possibly think that me. I'm so sexy and Marshall you know that kind of I think there's a very lovely moment where you are alone and you're recording your experience of just standing alone. Can we finish with you rating that Intri. Oh yeah this is my favorite beat. Sony belt seeks lines in the long term carpark at Tullamarine waiting for the boss sitting on all hunk of timber against a cyclone why fence through which the morning sun is carefully warming. My back birds a phone ringing in the budget office cars close and distant. Men's voices shouting a hose squashing ear a small all cool breeze a smell of grass. How in Ghana? Thank you so much for being my guest on conversation. Thank you thank you very much. You've been listening to a podcast of conversations with Sarah Caskey for more conversations interviews head to the website I they say dot net dot ie slash conversations. Discover more great A._B._C.. podcasts live radio and exclusives on the A._B._C. Listen Up.
#186: The Importance of Dying Before You Die, Helen Tworkov
"Hey, ten for centers. I'm Brad milkey from ABC news. And I want to let you know about another podcast that I host called start here. It's every weekday morning and in twenty minutes, we will get teed up for the stories that will be driving your day with context from smart people who are covering them up close. That includes Dan Harris, George Stephanopoulos, the entire ABC news team. So start smart and subscribe to start here. Is there something that interferes with your happiness or is preventing you from cheating? Your goals better. Help online counseling is there for you. Connect with your professional counselor and a private online environment schedule secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist listeners. Get ten percent off your first month by going to better. Help dot com slash happier. From ABC. This is the ten percent, happier podcast. Dan, harris. We have a remarkable story of show this league remarkable on a lot of levels. The details of the story are riveting, but the takeaway is is something that's been. It's really has stuck with me. And it's about the concept of dying before you die, which is not morbid. It's about letting go of attachment letting go of status money, possessions, achievements. Whatever we will when we die before to let go of all of that. But can you do that before you die at least in in some way? And you're going to hear about somebody who who endeavored to do just that he's a famous super famous monk and meditation teacher in the Tabet in school of Buddhism. He's he's what's been called a prince of the Dharma other words, he's he was born into a famous school of a famous family of meditation. Teachers he's believed to be the reincarnation of one maybe two famous meditation masters of of your and so has spent his life studying meditation teaching meditation, but also all of the practical stuff has been taken care of. He's never made a Cup of tea for himself. He's never ordered a train ticket and one day he up and disappeared from his monastery where he lived in. Nepal disappeared ghosted. And he went off on what's called a wondering retreat. This is something that meditation masters have been doing for centuries where instead of just going to a monastery and sitting in retreat, you actually go off and wander through the streets and the forests and do your retreat in that fashion. And so this so called prince of the Dharma went and lived on the streets where he had to beg for food. He lived in caves and at one point he almost died in. I mean, I'm not using that according to his telling of the story, this is not just kind of he got super sick. I mean, we really almost died, and he has an amazing account of a near death experience where he is after having done decades of really intensive meditation awake and aware as his body is falling apart. So that's fascinating to this is also the story of the western writer who. Elaborated with this monk to tell the story. The writers name is Helen torque of and she's our guest this week. And she and the aforementioned monk whose name is Ming your room. Prochet have written a book about this. It's called in love with the world. It's just out. So we're going to talk about what what does that mean in love with the world. And what did she Helen learn in the process of this because she is a long standing relationship with Ming Rinpoche as she's a student of his and she's a a writer herself. So what did she learn in in all this? And what can we learn from it? That's all coming up. I a couple of items of business one is we have to new meditations up in the ten percent happier app. The newly redesigned revamped ten percent of happier act, which has a whole new look to it so going you're an app subscriber going update at you'll see we've got a whole snazzy new look also very interested to hear what you think of that. So hit me on Twitter or go to go. Tell your coach on the app. Will you think? We're we really want to know the two new meditations one is from Joseph Goldstein's called 'em to is. And then another one called understanding stress by initia- fan Fernando poli the other item of business is that my colleague Dr Jen Ashton was on the show a couple of weeks ago. She's just written a book called life after suicide about what she and her family went through after her husband or actually they'd been divorced for two weeks. So her recent recently ex husband died by suicide and she started a podcast, which you should go. Check out it's called life after suicide you can go and subscribe right now, and the second episode has just gone up, and it is an interview with her daughter Chloe, and it is really quite a wrenching discussion about how Chloe was a college student reacted to the loss of her father and how she's been dealing with grief. Okay. Helen torque of our guest this week. She is the founding editor of a magazine called tricycle the Buddhist review, which is the first and only independent Buddhist magazine. She also before her most recent book, she wrote a book called zen in America profiles of five teachers. So now, she's got this new book called in love with the world. Helen is has been a long time, meditation practitioner and writer, she has also been a long time student of this particular teacher miniature Rinpoche after he got back from his four and a half year wandering retreat. He reached out to Helen and asked her to work with him on writing this book, he initially as she tells the story he initially wanted to write pretty much all about his near death experience. And and talk about what he saw there to break it all down. She said sure we can read about that. But I think what's equally. If not more interesting is why. Why anyone would walk away from you, basically having it all of, you know, being such a highly esteemed meditation teacher in a world where you know, he has all these attendance taking care of him and all these students who adored him, and he went out and lived on the streets. And of course, this move that he made of giving everything up is what she means by dying before you die letting go of everything and sort of living from that spot. And we talk about how in this episode. Helen, I talk about how we the rest of us can incorporate this wisdom, this perspective without living on the streets or living in a cave. We talk about the difference between letting go and giving up that's a really fundamental thing to understand we talk about this is gonna sound a little league Louis, but we talk about how when you strip away. All of your attachments, all that is left is love. Okay. Know that sounds a little sappy. But I have to say that when I have this incipient sense based on my own. Beginning or beginner experiences on long retreats that that may be true. So we talk about that. And of course, that that sentiment that all that's left after you strip away. Your attachments is love that. Of course is what's behind the title of the book in love with the world. We also talk about Helen's career both from amid Tate of standpoint. And from a writing standpoint what she's learned from having meditated for all of these years, and what she's learned from working one on one with many amazing teachers, and you know, what what does that say about the rest of us. Do we need a teacher? What we what she's learned from covering America's Dharma seen? We talk about a specific kind of meditation. That's known as nature of mind, meditation, which I do a little bit and find fascinating she also holds forth about all of the scandals. The metoo scandals that have rolled through. Through the meditation and buddhis- Buddhist world in in the last eighteen months, or so, and she is a very interesting perspective talks. She talks a lot about the difference between having enlightenment experiences and being full stop enlightened. And that's a really key distinction. Wilson talk about how she got into the meditation game in the first place, and how she has learned the hard way that Buddhism is not going to solve your problems. And yet she says, it's still offers something immeasurably valuable. So here we go. Here's Helen torque of nice to see you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. How did you get into meditation in the first place? I don't know why I asked that question as if I was making it up on the spot. I always ask that question. I but anyway, it's not a it's not in one line answer. At it took a long time. I spent a lot of time in Asia when I was very young. And I was exposed why why were you in Asia because I was very rebellious kid of the sixties and rather than go to sit at the icons of European heritage. I took off for the east, and I I was a hippie, and I traveled I was in Japan for six months and read DT, Suzuki and understood absolutely nothing. He wrote to his end mind beginner's mind now, that's the other Suzuki. That's okay. This is d Thiessen sukey who was very very influential. He was influenced the beat poets with a very influential with Allen Ginsberg, and Jack Kerouac, and Gary Snyder and people like that did he write that that you read he wrote wrote dozens of books that I can't remember the title. I honestly couldn't understand a thing. They were much to intellectual and abstract for me. And his part of what he was doing at that time was to try to create a kind of philosophy devoid of practice. He thought practice might frighten westerners away, which it might have. So there was nothing about actually how to sit. It was very philosophical. But I couldn't get into it. I will with twenty two graduated from college. Yeah. And where did you grow up and he's twenty third street? So we're your folks annoyed that you decided to go to Asians that have. I don't know studying the great a little bit perplexed. I think I mean, they they were. Yeah. I think I think there were a little perplexed, but they were supportive of my traveling. Maybe not I stayed away a little longer than I intended stayed away. From almost two years. I told them I'd be back in six months, but I kept in touch with them. So that was my first experience of bosom of the east. Then I went to Nepal, and I worked in Tibetan refugee camps in nineteen sixty six and that was very transformative for me. But I was afraid to practice. I was afraid of groups. I there were aspects of Buddhism as as far as I knew it was very little to read in those days. So it took me another ten years of slowly making my way towards practice. They didn't start practicing till around seventy five seventy six why were you afraid of gurus? I think I was just afraid of the of the whole concept of an authority in so-called religion. I didn't I didn't know what it meant. I'm not sure I'd do today. But I I it still. Has a you know, I think I had so many misunderstandings about it, which I think people do today as well. I I really miss read. It a lot but grew now I do interim purchase my teacher. Sure. You pronounce it minjah? Yeah. Okay. So I've been mispronouncing this whole time. What he thought was Ming your input, bingo, miniature and N G Y manure Bush, isn't he he's he's even younger than me. Right. He's a he's he's super young, right? I've met him. He's let's see he must be about forty two or forty three by now, I'm forty seven. So he's definitely under the me younger than I am. And is that teaches that is that strange to have a 'cause we we think of the guru as being some. You know, m announce grease at some point I was I started off into Benton Buddhism. And then I started studying then at some point my zen teacher died, and I had several years without any teacher and. When I began looking around that wasn't issue for me age. I thought well, this is going to be strange white. Maybe I don't need it. I actually had the idea that maybe I didn't need a teacher at that point in my life that turned out to be a miss big miss mistake on my part. It took me a couple of years to realize that my practice was not where I wanted it to be an I needed help I needed guidance. And so I started looking for a teacher and. I did a retreat with Monroe. It was very important to me. And it was basically everything that I was looking for. He he during it was a five day retreat at Gimpo abbey in Cape. Renton and it was teachings on. What we call the the nature of mind. It was sort of asking get into where's your mind, whereas your mind, and I had been gotten very lost in my zen sitting practice. So this was specificity and precision to his questions that was very important to me. We're way off the rails. Now in terms of your personal chronology? We've we're here to stay here. Honestly mean that the question for you, assuming that all of this gazetted? Not this messy, Dan. Or listeners love it made me made me speaking for our listeners into way, but they have no choice because this is the way we do it. The but stay stay on the nature of mine for second. Because we glossed over that. What is what does that mean? Where is your mind? What is what's that all about? Now. I know I wish I had stayed way off. Well, when we when we practicing when we sit in meditation. We're basically learning something about our minds trying to familiarize ourselves with our minds, and we don't know a lot about it. The first teacher I ever had that I bet teacher you had. I went into have a one on one. Interview with him. And they asked me, what color is your mind. And I was completely dumbfounded. I just sat there completely astonished. I had no idea what to say to say anything. Nobody. I'd never even imagined being asked that question never occurred to me that that question existed in the world as a question, and what what color is your mind. How big is your mind? And where does it come from? And where does it go? And so those kinds of questions, and then mentoring basically was something an echo of that quite a few years later, but it was the same idea of of asking you to look into your mind and see what you know about it, which is pretty much nothing. Right. I mean, my understanding of these practices, and it's been filtered to me through Joseph Goldstein who the great meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein who went off and studied with Tibetan masters. But he he actually comes from a different lineage, meaning he's at he's in a different school of practice Teradata, which is kind of old school, which predates the Tibetan practice. And he will sometimes ask you to ask a question. Which is you say you're hearing noises. You ask yourself. What is hearing? What is hearing these noises who is hearing these noises and in the looking you don't find. But the not finding is in some way healing is. That is that that's the same idea the same idea. Okay. Getting more and more familiar with what we conventionally called the mind is a very surface. External very limited very constricted version of what there is to know and becoming more and more familiar with that how to unearth what's underneath that muttering that goes on all the time. You get an answer. I'm still looking. So nine hundred seventy five you actually start practicing. What why what what brings you to the cushion at this point as after all these years of kind of flirting with it a lot of emotional pain, personal pain. What was going on? You don't have to answer that question. Good. Okay. Fair enough. As let it might my marriage was breaking up and other as emotional difficulties. And I couldn't I my my mind was driving me crazy, especially simple. I was thinking very obsessively about things that were very unpleasant and very difficult, and and not working with them in any kind of construction constructive way and not dissolving them in any way. And just experience the myself was like banging t to a wall again. And again guys, I have to do something. I have to do something to see a shrink. Click all good New Yorkers. I think I I don't know. I had already had seen a shrink. That was you know, I'd already done that. With varying degrees of success or not. And you know, it's nineteen seventy five in New York. I I had I had been living in Canada. I moved back to New York and everybody seemed to be searching for some spiritual way. And the Vietnam war has was barely over. And the culture was still a lot of turmoil. And so there was certainly an interest in exploring things that were outside the mainstream at that point still a mistrust of of what was going on in the mainstream. Whether it was therapy or or other wor- conventional religious forms, and I had been in Asia for a couple of years before that and I had gone back to Asia. So I had some affinity of for Buddhism without being able to really study it would when you finally started actually practicing. It wasn't it. I'm gathering from the shards of narrative, we've been able to collect this for that. It was in the zen. No, I it was the Tibetan versus the bet. And then back to the bet. Yeah. Okay. So tell me what was that like well my teacher at that time with the very elderly gentleman named Dutra in pain and. It was quite a traditional from one point of view, you know, any any westerner walking into Tibetan shrine room and seventy five or many cases today might think that this looks just like a dozen old Tabet, you know, it's just, but of course, if if any Tabet and walking in with thickets radically different. So it depends on your view there. But in many ways that was quite traditional the practices were traditional the ritual. There was a lot of chanting lot of recitation of liturgy, and he was very extrordinary. But unlike a teacher, let Trumper pitchy. He it was not his karma. If you will to put a bridge down for westerners like myself. So he remained very inspiring. But unreachable for me personally. Many. That's not true for many people. But that was for me that was drew reference. Trump Rinpoche a controversial of Tibetan teacher who came to the west war suit and tie took off his robes and became quite accessible, depending on who you ask for better or worse to to westerners just wanted to get that out there for folks. So it was his books that I actually was reading his books in nineteen. I can't remember when seventy two seventy three I was still living still living in Canada. But those were the first books because I started reading anything I could about Buddhism. But in those days late sixties there were about five books. The there was just incredibly you. Go to bookstore. Now, just blows my mind how many books there are up with some in the last fifty years we're talking about. But his books in the early seventies with my introduction to the possibility that Buddhism was for westerners. I hadn't quite believe that prior to that Buddhism. I had experienced that in Asia. And it was still something that seemed to me so integral to Asia that I couldn't actually imagine bringing it out of Asia and his books which were so much written four westerners in two westerners and addressing our concerns in such a forthright way was my first experience of thinking that maybe this was a possible path row Wester. Why didn't you go study with him? I think by that time he already had like a big kind of seen around him. That felt quite impenetrable to me. I was like I would always be an outsider, and it was all at already felt like it had four hundred ahead some solidity, and he was in Colorado, mostly, and I was in New York, and it just didn't I didn't have actually I did go to see him a couple of times in the seventies. And I wasn't particularly attracted to changing my life and studying with him. Would you say you got into practice finally because of emotional pain? Did it help? Yeah. In the long run. I think it did. But in the short run on my can't, remember, I honestly can't remember what you know. I think I think that having some alternative knowing that there was knowing knowing that there were alternatives to what I was doing with my mind was critical, and was very encouraged any gave me gave me a lot of hope and optimism that doesn't mean that I could get up every day, and and work with that mind, but just to have something as an alternative to what I had known about. I think was very critical was it that you all of a sudden instead of just drowning in and indulging your emotions all the time. You could see them at arm's length. I'm projecting here. Because that's what's been useful for me. I think taking responsibility for the kind of emotional anxiety that I was experiencing was critical that I that. I I couldn't continue to blame others. Although I did a good job of that. Anyway, that took that took quite a few years. It's still happening. I'm still working on it. But there's some level on which knowing that that that that I am creating my own suffering, and that I have the capacity to liberate myself from the same suffering. That's very critical piece of information. And even if you can't input it into your marrow every day and live with it. And and keep using it from the inside out. I still think it's an important piece of information. I mean, you're making me think about something that I've been thinking about quite a bit recently that it's often said and I found this underwhelming. When I first heard it that one of the original is not the original translation of the ancient Indian. Holly word for mindfulness is remembering recollecting that the other day. And and I remember thinking. Okay. Okay. But now, I we are so wired for denial for forgetting, we don't wanna look at, you know, hard small t truth like in permanence. And so much of the practice for me. Now is just like remembering to wake up. I completely agree with? I have the exact same exactly the same idea that often I have thought that the key to put his practices remembering just remembering remembering. Yeah. So it it helped in some way. But it wasn't. I would imagine it didn't solve your problem. No, no. And it took me a long time to understand the Buddhism wasn't going to solve all my problems ever that that was some fantasy. I some wish fulfilling ideal had problems we're going to keep coming circumstances. We're going to keep arising. You went on to do a thing to to to make a move. That's had quite a legacy, which is you use started tricycle magazine when when and why I started tricycle in nineteen Ninety-one the years before that from around the mid eighties. To Laurent for several years. There was a series of scandals in the Buddhist community not let what's going on right now, but they were individual scandals, and and all the different communities in zen and Tibetan Buddhism and vajpai's communities and at that time there was several of us that were working on community. Newspapers Trump petits paper was then called the visor dot to son win bell, and San Francisco ten directions, and and Los Angeles these were all community newspapers. And there was group of us who would right for those papers. But of course, we were not allowed to talk about these scandals. And all these guys that were being under the gun. We're all friends of each other's, and nobody could write about anybody else's teacher. And it was the very censored situation. Meanwhile, we we talked about we were all talking about these various situations in these different. Communities, and so the need for some kind of independent magazine became somewhat pressing. We had been talking about it. But it was sort of like, wouldn't it be fun? Wouldn't it be fun to have a a a nonsectarian Buddhist magazine? And suddenly, it became not fun. It became like, we really need this and the mainstream press started to pick up on some of these stories, and so the mainstream press could cover it, but we could cover it. And we wanted to put it into a larger and sympathetic context. Yeah. Things happen, and they're not great. And we wanted to own it. And and make it part of our own lives in our own community. And so at that time there was no other Buddhist. In fact, I don't think historically there would ever been an independent Buddhist magazine, they were all coming out of communities or they were supported by various sects or lineages and so forth. So this was a very radical departure from anything that happened. Previously in a really. Three to supp-, we could do anything, and we had people working on from all different traditions. And it was one of the things that happened during that period of these different of problems in the communities. It was acted like a great leveler because prior to that all these communities had a kind of sense of being better than Zan was always the most enigmatic the most mysterious than and the coolest. And defend Buddhism. Was you know, that they took it as the literal that they would the supreme teachings, and they've I positive communities always thought they were the closest to the bones of the Buddhist. So they were the real Buddhism. And there was all this kind of sense of of kind of went up between the different communities, and and these standards kind of was a great leveler. Like all of a sudden, we kind of accepted that we didn't know what was going on. We didn't know how to bring these teachings into the west. We didn't know what it meant to have a teacher and that we were all in the same boat. And that allowed us to create a common language and a common ah common ethos for one magazine. When is dependent scandals you referring to sex scandals. Well, there was a scandal. With at the zen center of San Francisco that was a sex scandal. There was a scandal with my own teacher. Muslims Roshii that was sex and alcohol. There was a scandal with the Vipond teacher that was sex and in Trump roomba. Chase community. There was a scandal with his regent who had been diagnosed with aids and had been having unprotected sex. How you compute? These purportedly great masters training their minds for greater self awareness and compassion doing things that are. Less than wholesome. I can't. It doesn't compute. I don't know. I don't know how to answer that question. I just don't I think one of I we're still working on it. I mean, I'm thinking about it a lot these days because we have a whole new set of scandals as you know, what are you referencing? When you talk about the scandals today today, we've had three major problems with into betton communities recently. The sock. Young in the shambolic community or guest on this podcast trunk by the aforementioned from Peru parentheses who was controversial ended of himself drank himself to death had relationships with his students and civil spouses of students. And so there's that and then his son who is actually you know, he sat in the chair. You're sitting right now and presented as quite straight laced kind of maybe maybe I thought of bit of reaction to his dad, and then it came out that their allegations that he had done, you know, there were some untoward behavior with women. I don't know if there's drinking evolved, I didn't look at it closely at that they've rumors that there is that's only know it from some quite a bit of remove. I'm not a number that community, then there's a Sehgal's that was mostly sex. Of Mariana teacher, and then lawmen Orla and upstate New York. That was also sex. So you know, right now, there's a kind of another. But I don't think it's gotten hasn't hasn't gotten easier for me to explain it except that I do I do feel that. We have made a Justice. I think at least I have. And I think many people in what our ideas of enlightenment. Are we used to see it as something static? You know, like like something that like some kind of out chemical transformation in the mind, the brain or some part of support of your being that therefore could not be moved became immutable, even though the teachings themselves. Keep reminding us that everything is changeable. Every fate is transitory everything is in transition. We continue to have this idea that enlightenment was some kind of Iraq. That I think we can put aside. How it manifests at what it means? Can we hold these two things together is it legitimate to hold them together? I don't know. I really don't know. So maybe they haven't lightened experiences, but that doesn't preclude them from doing something. We know that enlightenment experiences are not enlightenment. And I think that's that's one thing. We can we can many of us can agree on at this point that glimpses of emptiness glimpses of light and meant experiences of of of non duality of no self that is not an enlightened mind that this is a kind of a steadiness that has to be acquired. And I think at the end of the day, very few people get there, or at least among people that we know are have known or know of maybe few but not so many. Yeah. It's I continue to find it mystifying. I've had folks I've had we've had podcast guests who've who really looked at this. And I don't know if I can remember it accurately, but I think one of the explanations I've heard is that look delusion runs deep desire runs deep. These patterns. Run very very deep end. So you can be you can have done a lot of work and really changed the structure of your brain in your mind and in the right conditions. You may act in ways that that are harmful that explanation seems. I mean, if not fully satisfying in the in the neighborhood. Well, if it gets complicated because of course, a lot of what looks like unenlightened behavior to one person will then look like enlightened behavior to somebody else since you keep the focus on behavior. Then you went into a lot of issues around conventional, judgments and assessments, and that gets complicated. Also. So you know it. It doesn't help. So. Tricycle started in nineteen Ninety-one and would use the mission was to to look the mission. Was so simple on those days that would seem so complicated. Say what does the bag is doing today? But in those days was to disseminate Thermo, and it still is it's the same mission. Even though it has many different platforms right now because James Shaheen, who's running tricycle has developed big digital platform and learning platform and movie festivals. All kinds of things that tricycle the mission is the same. But of course, the whole landscape has gotten a lot more complicated. So you are you a writer by training in is that my background was an anthropology. Okay. But I had some editing experienced before. And I wrote a book above Zan before I started tricycle. What was that book zen in America, I profile of teachers of American teachers? So at a lot of that had to do it was it wasn't dissimilar to things that I did with the magazine it had to do with a with a cultural meeting point between. Japanese trained American teachers and western American specifically, American culture. Let's let's talk about your new book. Good. We got to hear a miniature version, but you actually, and we talked about this a little bit before we started rolling here. We're able to kind of draw out of him probably more than that he told us so and it's possible, by the way that many people listen to this having yet heard them, injure interviews. So let's start from the beginning. How did how did you get hooked hooked up with him to write this book? I started studying with him at around night at two thousand five and then a couple of years later, he asked me to work on a chat book for his own students. One book a chapel a kind of trap book kind of study book on the foundational practices of Tibetan Buddhism, and that turned into a three hundred fifty page book on the foundational practices lift Abedin Buddhism that was published by Shambala. So that was the first book, we did what was that called turning confusion into clarity? And then he while that. Yeah. When that book actually came out he was on retreat, and he came out of retreat, he announced in two thousand ten but he'd be going on a three year retreat or a long retreat him say how long. That wasn't so surprising because in his Cocu tradition. That's quite common. You go for long retreat, three years, three months. Three days is a kind of classic number. But basically that's just a stand in for long Philo retreat and. He began making extensive preparations to be away for a long time making curriculums for the little monks for the big monks tapes for the western students. There was one thing about this retreat. The we didn't know about which is where was he gonna do this retreat? And there are a lot of rumors about what monastery he might go into go into one of his own monasteries is teachers monastery what kind of Hermitage might he go to and then one night in June eleventh two thousand eleven he disappears from his own modest there. He sneaks out of his own monastery in both guy. And he leaves behind a note saying that he's always wanted to do this. He's going to live on the streets that in the forest and sleep in caves and live like a sadhu like a Hindu wandering, mendicant and beg for his food. And this was completely shocking. And part of it is that he was thirty five thirty six years old at the time. But he was a hothouse Dharam are prince he wasn't like a street kid. He is not that he grew up with with a kind of middle class the comforts in terms of of materialism, but he was very well taken care of. He was a Toko reincarnated Lama. He was the youngest son of an esteemed meditation master, took a Lurgan he was the abbot of three monasteries. He was a major linear holder. He had been very well protected, and he had never been outside by himself. He had never had never ordered a Cup of tea for himself. He had never carried money. It never bought a train ticket. So the the idea that he had just walked out of his own monastery, which just astonishing and when he came out of retreat four and a half years later as it turned out. He then talked about this near death. That he had had which was very transformative and was meant a lot to him. And he wanted to share that experience with other people. So when I went to visit him in Naples shortly after he came out of his retreat. He asked me if I would help him with a with a new book on the Bartos on the like, I said have to play part is referred to a set of teachings in Tibetan Buddhism about death and died, basically, that's what it means. When we use the word kind of colloquially, kind of means inbetween inbetween inbetween one stage of life and another stage of life, and as in the because of course. In the Tabet in tradition as in many Buddhist traditions, there's more life after life so this. So this is kind of stages of once physical life, you're born and you enter the bardo. You're in the bardo of this life, and you have an irreversible illness and you enter the bardo of dying. And then the longest bardo that according to the texts that you're an is the bardo in between this form of this life and taking a new form. So it can be used as in between in that way. So I said, well, you know, sure, I love to do this. And I went back to they've Powell a couple of months later and. But we, but I didn't know where to start you know, where to start working on a book on bardo. So I started asking him moral more about the beginning of his retreat and. I have to say that the beginning of the retreat and his whole reason for leaving was much bigger hook for me than anything that came after afterwards because he thought it was going to be about the near death experience. It is about them and the whole second part of the book is about the near death experience. But a lot of people almost die. And what this book offers is an extraordinarily articulate precise understanding of what's happening because he had been trained to to to know this. He had been trained in bardo. He knew what was happening to him as the dissolution of his body is taking place if you read other near death experiences. There is an experiential parallel to what he describes. But without any of the articulation of what is happening in the body. So that's what makes this near death. Experience quite remarkable in the near death experience literature because his mind he's he's not only trained in the Bartos, which by the way for those of us who are sick. You know, secular, folks, I I don't know what to think of that. But he's definitely got a sharp focused mind and can see more as what happens to the mind in the body as it's coming close to death than your average untrained mind does who then comes back and reports to us stuff about a white light. Well, there is a there is into betton studies. There is a particular emphasis put on the dying process because the separation of the mind and the body which is what the descriptions of the in the near death experience literature referred to there is what Tibetans would call the separation. I don't know what other people call it. They just talk about floating above their bodies. But it's the same experience. But the thebenz have known about this as have many traditions, and there's a great deal of emphasis put on that experience, which will happen to everyone is part of the dying experience. None all of us will go through that. But only those who can recognize what's happening can benefit from it. So there so Rimba Che is very clear about wanting to know what is happening, and he knows what that possibility is about. But as I said earlier a lot of people almost by nobody we know walks out of their middle class. Comfort zone and decides to live on the street that we don't know about an and even though it's very much part of his tradition, especially in the early founders of his tradition. People like to Lopa neuropathies Miller repa- these are all the early heroes of the Cocu tradition that he grew up knowing about they did this. They were they were they were wild street yogis or or not Streep. But but. Living very unconventional lives. But very few of the more recent master's, do this repete had one teacher initial convinced Ajay who spent some time on the street, but unlike minimum Ajay he had grown up and tremendous poverty, and if he had to go hungry for a couple of days on the street that was not his first experience of hunger for mentoring betray, it would have been. So what about the story aside from the broad strokes of it what what caught your imagination? How did it go for him? Well, this is what happened when he first leaves? It doesn't go. So well. You know, he he he ends up. His his first plan is to get attack. He takes some money from the monastery with him because people leave offerings of money every day in his room when they come to visit him, and so he had been siphoning off a little bit before the tend to came to take it. So we had a little bit of cash with them when it comes to week calculated about one hundred and fifty American dollars. And so he by had bought him so figured out how to buy himself a train ticket from the guy a station, which is about eight miles from his monastery. So his first plan was to get to that station. Take the midnight train to Varanasi, and he had no plan from there, which is another for me. That's amazing. No one would set off and have no plan last past the first night, but he gets onto the station platform. He had always been there with attendance. So he was sit in the nice air conditioned room. And attendance, we go buy the tickets and figure out how to get the port. Her and carry the luggage and get him into the AC car and so forth, and he has to sort of figure out, and he doesn't even know how to read the the the currency the denomination on the notes what he doesn't even the handle money. All right. I guess that's he's been a monk since he was a little boy since he was a little boy. So he's standing there. And he's figuring all this stuff out. You know, it had you know, what cue to get on for the the train Varanasi and buying the cheapest ticket which meant that he's. Get squished into this car with gazillion other people and it's not comfortable for him at all. He doesn't freak out. Like, many of us might have just as I think this is a really bad idea. I'm gonna take a taxi back to the monastery speak back right now, he doesn't do that. But he's not comfortable on this platform station. You know, waiting for the train and he's trying to deal with that. And to figure out what's going on here. And we'll talk himself down. You know that this is in permanent. This will change. I have to let this go. This agitation we'll go if I if I let it pass it will go and. And then he gets onto the train and he spends a fairly miserable night on and off. I mean there are times when he when he when he reveals to us what his practices how he's trying to practice. What his, but he's also disgusted by the smell of the overflowing toilets, and he's baby crying and people are falling over him because the after a few I he doesn't have a seat and then after a few stops. He gets a seat on the floor. And so people are tripping over him while he's a Toko. He's never sat on the floor was never allowed to sit on the floor to do not sit on the floor. So all of this is completely new. There's just a completely radical upside down moment of that that that happens so fast and the biggest change that he talks about in the book is an being alone. Not having an attendant not not having any protection whatsoever. So I think that you know, in love with the world is really very radical in terms of exposing. That's the. Title is very radical in terms of exposing a mind that stressed out of a of an enlightened teacher who then is trying to work with it and the enlightenment comes in. And how he tries to work with it how he's working with it. And he talks about losing his his awareness for moments at a time, but not too long. So it's a combination of constantly relying it being tremendously confident of the awareness that he knows he has he's very he has a lot of confidence in his practice and in the teachings, but he his awareness gets Brooklyn a couple of times, and he's he has some really difficult moments. What what can you talk about what the most difficult moments were? I think the first difficult moment would have been on the platform. In the guy a station that was you know, he had he had only been out of his monastery for less than an hour at that point. But I think the crowds were difficult for him. Getting pushed around was difficult. And I think being on the train. There was one one one description of a very loud noise that kind of. Kind of agitates him a lot. And again, he walked you through what's happening in a way, that's very very unusual. And it's kind of amazing where he is very articulate about being frightened. He magin. They he wakes up to this noise. This this huge noise. And before he even knows what the noise is. You know, he's in the middle of a terrorist attack were or something horrible that is happening and he can hear his my hey can hear the the what his mind is doing to him faster than you can hear the sound of the train. It turns out. It's the sound of the trains, the train whistle. But he walks you through all of that new ways. It really eliminates how the mind works. And then how he's working with his mind. And how even though even though it's it's not the perfected enshrined enlightenment that we might think of it's very much a mind that. Is extremely advanced and knows what it's doing in a way that's incredibly inspiring and encouraging for the rest of us. So it sounds like he acquitted himself. Well, and that he put himself in a test a real test for his practice. Extrordinary test extraordinary. Yeah, he had some moments, and he as you put it quick himself. Well, that's yeah. I would say that's kind of an understatement. I mean, most of us would have been under the covers or back home where? Yeah. And he kept going, and he he kept telling himself that you know, everything will change everything will be okay change. Now. That's very much a part of the theme of the book because it goes change in permanence transients and finally deafened died becomes a meditation on all aspects of change in physical body, mental body and so forth. Stay tuned. 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So they know we sent you get cashback for shopping. You were already going to do racket in is a free member base. Loyalty program that lets you earn cashback on shopping. It over twenty five hundred stores like Macy's best buy Nike and more. Shop online internet percentage of every purchase. You make up to forty percent cashback every three months members are paid the pay pal or another method. Sign up today at in dot com. That's our A K U T E N dot com. What did you learn what we will we as readers by extension? Learn about how to work with your own mind in working with menu. Tell this story. One of the things he doesn't this book. And if it's not unique to him. But he describes the bar does not as a linear process that takes place in this lifetime, and then dying and then you're next left. He describes the Bartos as states of mind that we go through continuously. So all day long. We're dying. We're changing we're being reborn all day. And I think there's something about how he talks about it again, it's not radical. It's not brand new for Tibetan teacher to talk this way. It's a little different than some of the more conventional versions, but this sense of continuity of being born and dying and being born and becoming becoming becoming. He has a way of talking about it that you could bring into your daily life continuously see you constantly. I got on a subway to come here. What what was the beginning of my journey was that when I got on the train when I left my house when I went down the steps when I bought my ticket when I got off what was the beginning. What was the ending to take the most daily life situations and to ask? What is it start? Where does it end and to to to kind of slowly absorb it as continuity change and continuity transformation, and I think Ripa chase point in this book is how much this can reduce our fear of what we call dying. So that dying doesn't remain this monolithic thing that happens at the end of our lives that we can work with a continuously right now in in our in every aspect of our daily lives. He talks about breathing in and breathing out as beginning and ending being born and dying every every every breath is a death every breath is reper-. So you can do it. You can keep working with it continuously. And I found that to be very powerful. I'm not sure I'm I'm I'm I'm still struggling a little bit to understand that. So every breath is of being born and dying because it begins. It begins and ends and everything's beginning. And end. Becoming and changing. And we tend to I think part of part of what he talks about in the book is that we we often feel that we're stuck in our lives. I mean, this is you know, he seeing battlegrounds of students, and this is a constant theme is that they somehow feel. Discontent. But they don't know quite what to do with it. And they don't quite know how to handle it. And they they have a sense of this is who I am. And it's not really there's nothing in their actual lives. That is chaining them to one perspective of themselves one view of themselves or one activity of themselves that they have a fixed idea of who they are. And that fixity is will what keeps them going? And what we call some Sar keeps them going in circles. And so. The working with the sense of continuity and change in all situations is something that really allows the fixed mind to loosen up a little bit loosen it up. So that you're not you're not starting here ending their as we do all day long. Of course, some of this is just simply pragmatic, and if I say, I'm gonna meet you at four o'clock, I'm gonna look up by watching me would four o'clock, but a lot of it has to do with the way we fix ourselves and hold ourselves in very constricted, very limited ways. And so having a sense of continuity and change in every part of our lives. Whether it's in how we breathe or breathing or going anywhere can be extremely inspiring to what the possibilities. Are you talk about you know, when the rubber hits the road? How would we practice this in our do of? What's the practice? Is. It just noticing all the time how things change. I think what are the things that mental repete is I think quite good at both in this book, and in general and his teachings is bringing the practice down to some very pragmatic daily life situation. So that something like change in permanence is not held out in some icon ick form, like a like, let's say I'm gonna go on vacation, and that's going to be a change or I'm going to graduate from this program, and that will be a chain and go to go to new we have all these go to a new job. We have all these very big markers. Somebody in our life dies that these huge markers. And instead to to take these markers and bring them down into the nitty gritty of our lives. Okay. You're a silly example what one one to one of the first times I ever kind of realized this for myself. I was in the middle of working on the book. And I read a novel was a novel that I liked a lot. And like a lot of times when I read novels, I didn't want it to end. I just spent a week with this character. And this character became my best friend had return to this character and the novel ended, and I wanted to hold onto this character and very often. I go back and I start reading the book again from the beginning at least for a while. Maybe the first couple of chapters before I'm ready to say goodbye. And I had never before thought about it. As a kind of a grieving I I never used that word. I had never applied that we're to that process. And it suddenly occurred to me that this is a kind of gravy as kind of letting go is the kind of allowing myself to be open to the next experience, the next book, the next character, whatever it was. And so it's the shift in perspective. I had never seen. It was the same feeling the feeling didn't change how I thought. About it changed. And so I to add that to a sense of of of of letting go of moving on of of after letting. The letting go of one breath allows for a new breath it allows for a new possibility allows new experience and allows for greater curiosity. Greater acceptance of what's in front of you, the you're not taking that fixed mind and a working your normal or your habitual program. Do you do you think that? Actually. Working with these practices has made you more comfortable with the idea of death for yourself. You know, I'm very aware of the fact that if I was given a a life threatening diagnosis tomorrow, I would not know how I would respond. I cannot tell you that I would respond with greater or lesser equanimity that I might have two years ago. I really don't know. But what I do know is that I don't think so much about. How will I die physically? I'm much more interested in this process of continuous dying, greedy. Reborn letting go it's much more interesting to me. And will it help me at some point? I don't know. I hope so, but I don't know. In terms of dying before you die their peer. And you correct me if I'm wrong on this. I hope they're appear to be a couple ways to look at this. There's this moment by moment thing where you can watch the beginnings and endings of everything, and then there's also, you know, a miniature Rimma shea had to die had to let go of his status in the world. And and unlike go of many other things in order to go out and do this this this retreat, you talk a little bit about that. And that's why I stayed question before we started rolling. You were talking about dying before you die that part of it is let go of our status in the world. Let go of our middle class live let go of our whatever titles. We may have grooved slick. Oh of our attachments, whatever your tax payment is if you're attachment is to be imported gotta look at us. It's not. So it's not just middle class versus some other class. This would ever you're attached. To what the attachment is is the attachment expresses the echo. That's where the ego gets caught. And that's the small self the smell. The Celtics identifying with these outside tiles outside descriptions outside associations. That's what has to let go and order for another kind of birth to take place. We see this all kinds of cultures. We see this in tribal cultures where young men not women for the most part, but young men go through. A kind of transformation from a secular to a spiritual. Maturity you see this worldwide. This sense of letting go of the small in in terms that we use. It would be ego driven a small self in order to reveal I allow to flourish a different level of being and that's just as that famous very strong and Christianity as well as good as some. But maybe not as are ticketed these days as as it once was with this kind of letting go make us less effective in the professionals fear, if constantly letting go of my title as anchor man of this, and that, you know, my gonna, you know, give I remember I was talking to our mutual friend. Dr Mark Epstein has been on the show bunch of times. Have I was talking about maybe letting go of something in my professional sphere. And he said and not in the majority of the he was. -cerned that I was quote unquote, giving away my power not meaning like not meaning it in the sense of power hungry. And and I I should actually look at a healthy way of getting of letting go of that he met more like, you know, you have this influence in the world. Do you want to just let that go in a way that might be unwise and actually that very concern? He had is I guess what? I'm trying to voice here. Could we could we let go in a way that movie irresponsible in the second part of vendor? Book in love with the world. He has an encounter. He sitting by this time. He's in Krishna gar. He sitting in a park. He's still transitioning from his ace still waiting robes. He still has enough money to stay in a guest house, but he's more and more spending more time outside and sitting in a an up in a park area, and he has an encounter with an Asian, man. And the man notices that he's meditating and he comes in. He asks for his advice. I see that you're meditating. Can I ask for your advice? I'm visiting I came here to look for peace of mind and learn how to meditate on them. Having a terrible time. I don't know what to do them, and they begin to have this conversation. And they they talk several times. And one of his concerns is that he is a businessman, and he's and he's learning he's he's been learning Buddhist practice, but he has a he he admits that some part of this Buddhist practice has been used. He hopes that it will make him an even better businessman, and he does not want to he fears letting that letting go we'll be bad for his specis. These never known a life without ambition without goals and rinpoches says to him letting go does not mean giving up. So I think in that there's something about what you're asking. That letting go has to do with letting go of the attachment. And the the attachment to seeing the attachment itself as what causes the problems not what your activity is. It's not like letting you could let go of being whatever you naturally clears up. You can let go of be know ten percent, happier. And you could get very attached to being Mr. two percent one hundred percent happy or whatever it is. It's the attachment that that that creates fixity around who we think we are is the attachment that we do ses and constricts and limits our capacity for exploring new possibilities. But I've always had trouble this, I wouldn't know how to be affective in the world if I didn't have some level of attachment to buy so I dreamt up his idea of ten percent, happier and then pursued it even though everybody told me was stupid. And now people make fun of me for being Mr. ten percent, happier because it worked on some level. Right. So I do have some attachment to it in an attachment. I think helped me persevere in the face of headwinds. Let's say so how could I have done what I kind of stumbled into doing without having some level of. Catchment? Well, when you when you were stumbling into it, you weren't yet attached, right? They tach -ment somehow came later on your stumbling when you describe stumbling in that's not an attack that doesn't sound very attached. Generally when we're stumbling. We're making our way and we're being motivated by whatever it is curiosity. Maybe I'm Bishen maybe possibility maybe wanting new horizons and wanting new challenges stumbling doesn't sound like attachment attachment. Is that sticky stuff that gets in our way? It's not about the activity. It's not about what's the other end of the attachment is the attachment itself as the quality of of reaching out, and urinate, and and manipulating and trying to to to to angle to meet your niece space on that fixed idea of what you think you want or are. As it's where it gets restrictive and constrained. So your view is that this attachment is an a an overlay on top of motivations that actually are are could lead you to be more effective. And if you can get rid of the attachment, actually, you could do more good in the world or have more success. She shrugging just now. I mean, I think he I think. You know for a lot of us. We talk about attachment because we we we recognize it as the entrapment now, if if you don't recognize it that way, it's no problem. Yeah. No. I mean, I I think I this is one of these things that I've kind of puzzled over for a long time because I think if the theme of one of the big themes of. The first book, I wrote was how can you be? Ambitious not in the George of you know, how can you be a person who thinks big and tries to go for it without making yourself miserable. And so attached seems to be a big part of the how you make yourself miserable. But never quite sussed out. How to turn down the volume on that attachment without the experience yourself Spain very attached to your role or to your way to your profile at my worst at yours. Yes. And maybe that's not so bad at my worse. Yes. Am I best? It's not on my mind. Right. And so there's probably the answer. Yes. And my best I'm just focused on what I'm doing. And I'm I'm not so wrapped up in. How's this gonna make me? Look as Mr. Templeton, happier. Whatever I'm just like talking to you or play with my kid or playing with ideas for how to create good, great content or mentoring, my employees, or whatever. So I'm not thinking about that. Okay. So you just answer. My question took me a long time to get there. Sorry. But you you're very patient with me. And I appreciate that. What is the what is meant by the title in love with the world. Following mentor patrols near death experience. This is at the very end of in love with the world book. He recognizes there's something in that experience. The happens in the near death experience in which he experienced the the attire world as love, and he's very articulate about it. And this is the complete absence of the ego self of the conceptual self and he charts his the dissolution of of the elements of the of the up until he can and then at some point the conceptual mind dissolves, so he's giving us the play by play description up to a certain point. And then he. But he still has the capacity to have some memory of what happened. He spends about five six hours than this very very, very deep meditation state. And even when he oh, I'm not going to tell you the very end of the book is very wonderful surprise fan team. So I'm not gonna tell you if the by this book. But he does experience the world as an enormously loving space. A space that he loves the space that loves them the space of total complete acceptance. And in a in a way, that's very radical for him. But he had never known such a degree of comfort in the world complete absence of self conscious embarrassment. These are the things that bedeviled him on the train station in guy at the beginning and the station in Varanasi, he was intensely embarrassed as self conscious and that just disappears. He feels completely accepted by this loving loving world. Have you ever had to go to that yourself? Glimpse. Little glimpses. What do you think that is that when you strip away all of our attachments and striving in urinating and fear and fusion that what remains is somehow love? In our own lives than our own rurals that most of us inhabit, we give so much dominance to the thinking mind, the intellectual mind, and it often leaves us perhaps not as much in touch with our hearts as we. Could be might be. And I think when a lot of when a lot of that intellectual conceptual mind drains out we're left with something that we always have. But it's so covered and so obscured and so often remain so hidden, so when you save you ever had a glimpse of that in some ways, you know, if you remember when this first one was when you fall in love those moments. Just the whole world is wide open everything. Everybody looks beautiful. Everybody looks wonderful. Everybody is so happy to see you. You're so happy to see everybody. But that's a very open heart that heart. Didn't go anywhere. It doesn't leave us that doesn't fly away doesn't have his own little paradise that goes home to. It's there all the time. But are you? So so are you saying are fun to mate, fundamental nature is loving because you could also argue that are fundamental nature is pretty awful in violent. If one looks takes a passing glance at human history, for example. I think I have a lot of faith in the Buddhist view of an essentially loving. Space loving beam. Why am I saying that? We know through our own meditation practice that the intellectual mind that were so used to so dependent upon and so familiar with we know how fragile that is we know that that's not our true mind. And. When we when I look at the world today. What I see more than anything else is not violence. I could look at it that way easily, but what I see is just tremendous ignorance than I see an interest that is being perpetuated through mental constructs, not the heart. Through ideas, very ignorant ideas. So I had a lot of faith in that possibility that we can learn to be a allow for a more loving consciousness mean one could marshal evidence to support this thesis. For example, you have to train people very hard to become killers in the military. We used to drug them in or give the booze in order to do this. And now we have to kind of you know, you really have to train people if for quite a while in order to get them to do something, which is essentially against our nature. It could doesn't feel good to hurt other people. So that would be one data point and other data point from my own experience. And I may have talked about this in a previous podcast. So I apologize. Everybody from being repetitive. But I remember my the first time I had a real sort of. I don't know a meditative experience on on on a meditation retreat where the volume of my inner. Chatter went way down. I made a big deal out of it probably like nothing, but I remember feeling extraordinarily happy but not in an excited way. But happy in us sort of profound way wellbeing contentment, and I remember if I had the summit up in words, which is a very difficult thing to do. That it was a feeling like of everything's okay now. Everything's okay right now. But like everything's okay. Period. Full stop and. Yeah, that's so an and every time I've gone back on meditation retreat, and I you know, in back in that terrain for a fleeting second. And then then get attached to it in ruin everything. It is the same sort of feeling that you all you're left with is a much warmer state of mind than I'm normally in when I'm trying to catch a cap. She's not an agreement me. I just before we close here. I just want to we've talked a lot about his near death experience. But we didn't actually fill in the details of what happened to him that he was having a near death experience. Oh, he he went out to beg for food by this time he's out of money. And he's speaking for food, and he's it's something that's very poisonous. And he begins vomiting has extreme diarrhea. He's getting very dehydrated probably more. So when he realizes so he's continuing to drink water, but not enough and he's a so after about, I think. After the second night. He can no longer stand up to go back to the restaurant even beg for food. So then he stops eating completely. And and I think it's the dehydration probably. Yeah. And I can't tell you the exact ending. That's the remain a mystery. Yeah. Obviously doesn't die. So that's not so mysterious. Listen, I think he might have given away the ending. Think he might have. But I I won't give it away. Okay. Good such a pleasure to sit and talk to you, really appreciate this. So before we go, I always ask people to to enter what we call the plug zoned, can you? So can you just plug away plug the book plug tricycle, tell tell us where we can find all of this all of anything related to you tricycle. You can go online, and you can buy a subscription to the print version or you can buy a digital version or you can find out for both in you get a lot of extra things you get daily darva, wonderful reminders every morning about how to practice and how to work with your mind encourage it, inspiring, daily reminders, and for the book, it's in love with the world, my journey through the Bartos of living and dying by Minter empathy and me, and it's coming out from Spiegel and growl on may seventh and you can. Preorder from Amazon or from Random House and by this book. Which one was your editor Spiegel or grow Spiegel. Cindy spiegel. Okay. So Julie Grau her partner is my head. My head is still my I've got two more books. I. Yeah. She's wonderful person. So thank you. So are you? So thank you very much for coming in. Really appreciate that. Stan thanks again to hell in torque of I should say that if you're interested in hearing more about miniature Rinpoche as story he was actually on this podcast episode twenty seven and this was actually this was a while ago because we're in episode one hundred eighty something now, so this is what he was one of my I guess three almost three years ago, and he was fresh off of his wondering retreat at this point. So he talks he talks about his the his experiences from his perspective. And unfortunately, it's only in the last fifteen minutes of that podcast that we get to it because I didn't know that much about what had happened at the time. So we talk about many many fascinating things, including the fact that he suffered from panic attacks much of his life. And so what's that like? But in the last fifteen minutes, he really talks about why he went on this retreat. What it was like to have a near death experience. So go check that out. I think it'll be a great compliment to what you've just heard from Helen time for the voicemails. Here's number one. Hey, dan. This is I lean from Boone North Carolina. Thank you for all. You do your podcast is one of my absolute favorites. And I wanted to ask you about loving kindness meditation. So one of the forums that I practice. I know there are a few different things people say or think when they do it the one that I do sends wishes out for may you be safe. Maybe healthy may be happy. May you live with ease? And my question for you is some of the people that I choose to focus on in this meditation. Besides myself are people who are struggling with health and happiness. And so my mind starts to argue with me as I'm sending these wishes out saying, yeah, that's a nice idea. But that's not what their life is like. So would I have chosen to do is when my? Mind starts to disagree with me. I just note that and let it go and return to the wishes that I am sending out to those people. But my question for you is have you ever experienced this? And do you have any advice to do something different than what I'm already doing? So again, thank you very much. Have a great day. My first response is what you're doing sounds pretty good to my semi educated ears. The second thing I'd say is I don't know how much arguing arguing is really needed. If you just approaches from purely logical perspective, for example. So I practice meta 'em ETA or loving kindness. Meditation a lot and one of the people one of my targets is my dad who's has has some health problems. And. I picture him. When I say when I'm sending the phrase of may, you be happy actually picture him playing with his grandson, my son, and recently, and he was really happy. So that's not that hard. But when I sent him wishes for his health, I just kind of picture him as he is now in and hope that he can be as healthy as he possibly can be given the current circumstances. So he is to run marathons I'm not imagining in my mind that he's that he be that healthy again. But I'm I'm hoping that he can be as healthy and happy and safe as possible given his current circumstances. So I I hope that makes sense. I don't think it's about having unrealistic fantasies. Just hey, can you be the best? You can be right now, given what's happening. So that's my approach. I hope that helps here's voicemail number two. Hey, Dan, love the podcast from I am question. So there are several individuals who claim sort of in light meant on namely, Eckhart, totally dishonest. They Gary Webber and others who claim to not have thoughts. Sort of their their default mode network is like permanently offline and how I submitted this as a question to the Sam Harris and a page to which she has not. Responded in AMA podcasts, and I'm just curious as to whether this is something that is true. Or if there's some other more rational explanation, I can understand that they're not lost in thought. But simply claim that you have no sort of thoughts concerning the year historical past or your future seems to me on likely and would make life impossible for that person. So I don't know if that question made any or if I phrased it, right? But that was the best. I could do. Thank you and keep keep up the great work. I. Answer this question. Not because I have the perfect answer. Just because I think it's incredibly interesting before I say, whatever I'm going to say, let me just for for the uninitiated explain who some of those people are that you named. So you talked about Gary Weber who I've never met. But I've heard some podcast with him is if I if memory serves, a former businessman who was practicing doing contemporary practices for longtime and claims to have had a pretty significant enlightenment experience odd, you shanty, I don't know much about at all I believe is a pretty prominent teacher, an Eckhart Tolley have met and have interviewed and have written about extensively is a huge bestselling spiritual teacher and author who says he had a spiritual awakening after which he lived on park benches in in a state of bliss in the city of London for two years and. Yeah. And then you say you submitted this your question about this to Sam Harris to his AMA ask me anything podcasts that he does. I know he's got one coming up. So maybe he'll take it touring that Sam is also a longtime meditate or and has a podcast called making sense used to be called waking up which was named after a great book. He wrote called waking up. But now the podcast is called making sense. He also has a mitigation app called waking up and Sam is a friend of mine and has been a real sort of like mentor as I've gotten deeper in into meditation. And in fact, he knowing him I met him by ten years ago. Maybe actually met him a little bit longer oh longer than that. But we needing somebody skeptical as him. He's one of the first authors to come out and write these forceful books about atheism meeting. Somebody is skeptical is him was a neuroscientist and an atheist and a philosopher and a writer, but also was deeply into meditation that really helped me. Me get interested in meditation in the first place. And I remember as I was writing ten percent, happier. At one point I called Sam Harris and asked him because Eckhart Tolley was in some ways, this the Senate qua, non of my whole, quote, unquote, spiritual journey because I read Eckhard told his book, and he was the first person I ever heard describe the fact that we all have a voice in our heads, the sort of inner narrator that is. Yarmur away at us all the time and has sort of casting into the future ruminating about the past all the time. And never quite where we are never in the quote, unquote, the present moment, and I remember asking Sam wants about. Eh claim that he had the spiritual experience in that. He was enlightened. And I think there's there's some quote, I read from Eckhart totally that he sort of he said that if he ever met the Buddha in the Buddha told him, he wasn't enlightened. He would think a wow. Even the Buddha can be wrong. So I I remember thinking as a pretty big claim to be making about yourself. And I asked Sam about it once and and SAM's answer, if memory serves was that, you know, maybe that's it could be having enlightenment experiences of this level to SAM's mind. Again, this is a guy who's spent years and years and years in India and other places on retreat and also has a scientific background to him. It seemed possible that you could have these profound levels of you could read one could reach these profound levels of enlightenment, and look there's there's actually some scientific evidence. To back up that that the people who've done decades and decades and decades of practice that their brains are different, you know, there's all this research spearheaded by Dr Richard Davidson at at the university of Wisconsin where you take these highly these advanced these sort of Olympic meditators and look at their brains and their brains are really different. And by the way, one of the people's whose brains has has been scanned is menu Rinpoche and he's close with Richie. Davidson fact, that's how I got to note meager. And so obviously, there's a causation correlation question here about these folks with these computer, really, interesting brains, like maybe they're advanced meditators because their brains were like that or maybe they maybe their brains are like that because they did all that work on their on on the cushion. So it's not this positive this this evidence. But it certainly compelling, and it's been really interesting. For me over time as somebody who thought the idea of enlightenment was ridiculous to meet all of these really smart. Western secular science based folks who talk about how yet. No, I think it's possible they say that you can affect profound changes on the level of the brain. And the mind so that life is very different that we're not that you're not so afflicted by difficult, emotions like greed and hatred and confusion. So does that mean you no longer think? Well, you know, I'm not sure that's my understanding of what Gary Webber and Eckhart Tolley are claiming that they don't have thoughts my understanding. And this is where I'm getting on thin ice. Oh, I don't want to claim that I know too much, but my understanding about what Gary Weber people like Garry Webber in a car, totally reclaiming his they do have thoughts, but they have no illusions about whether there is a thinker. In other words, they seen through the luge. One of the self that that, of course, thoughts arise. Yes. I need to. I should eat right now. My belly is rumbling or I it's time to brush my teeth or you can think I'm Gary Weber. I need to make dentist appointment using that name. But you have no allusion that there is some core. Gary in there or some core Eckhart in there who's thinking these thoughts that that that there is they really in touch with the mystery of consciousness that at some level. If you look in a sustained enough way at the mind, you will see that it is empty that. There is no not empty in the conventional western sense. But that is empty of self that it is that there's no one home, really. And that is the mystery. So if there's no one home, how can we be having these thoughts, and this is one of the things that many of us in the meditations Zine really wrestle with. I don't have firm answers about this. This is one of these questions that I think I we should. In fact, I will now resolve to do. So I think this would be great question for when we get teachers on the show to run some of questions from you all buy them. In fact, we've recently taped an episode that we're gonna post soon where I had a very senior teacher on the show. We let her listen to some of the voicemails, and she takes a crack at some of the answer. So this would be a good one to reuse. So I hope I've I've shed a little bit of light from my unenlightened mind on on this question, and I hope Sam ways into on his excellent podcast, which I am of which I am a regular listener. Thanks, you that question thanks to for to everybody who works on this now webby award winning podcast gives me so much pride to say that Samuel John's grace Livingston Ryan kesler Suzy lose work in the boards today as I record this intro on Saturday morning. Thank you also to all. The folks who agreed to give us feedback on a regular basis that's enormously helpful and thanks to everybody. Who just listens to the show? Really? Appreciate it. I know I say this every week every podcast host says this. But there's a reason why we say it if you have the time or energy to give us a review a rate us or talk about social media that really helps with our rankings and helped more people find us and make sure that we continue to do this work. All right. I'll see you next Wednesday. Thanks.