2 Episode results for "Heidi Prisma"
NBC News: House Dems zero in on abuse of power in Trump impeachment inquiry
"Into the Senate around Thanksgiving yes because the calendar doesn't make sense unless there's a crunch factor in there that we haven't been able to see from the initial scheduling now it's time for the last word with Lawrence Donald Evening Learning Rachel and that explains the Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell both talking about the possibility of this movie him they just don't care about details they don't know how to care about details and that explain with carelessness calling Defense Secretary Mark Casper Mark Esperanto got trump a lot of really a year looking for a Typo in an official White House Document and not find one these mistakes mean a lot from Donald Trump and the people working for you anes has constant refusal to care about details he doesn't know how explains everything about Donald Trump's presidency president of Ukraine he does not know how to care about details and so we'll take some time at the end of the hour tonight to consider in all seriousness also got the secretary evinces name wrong and that's what makes it a classic trump presidential tweet the combination of deceit and stupidity they morning he issued a deeply disturbing tweet about the situation in Syria and the Kurds and in the tweet he lied about bringing our soldiers home he due to the resistance once again this weekend donald trump's surrendered to the resistance that rose up after he announced his illegal and unconstitutional plan to we'll be operating principle of Donald Trump's presidency is to govern by lie and so he lied today when explaining why he surrendered old to be confident that the president of the United States actually knew the real name of his defense secretary when he typed him as s onto but if we just limit ourselves to the typos just the typos in trump tweets and an official White House statements written by the least competent White House staff in history the number in this hour trump lies and stupidity go hand-in-hand Donald Trump depends on a sort of collective stupidity for people to believe his lies the next seven meeting to a trump hotel so that the American government and foreign governments would be paying donald trump directly at the same time we'll get to that later one was one of those moments for me where I couldn't laugh and the Mark Esperanto tweet did not strike me as funny it actually felt deadly serious normally typos on twitter the clear and present danger of having a president of the United States who might or might not have thought for a few hours yesterday ain't nothing but a Typo is when you type something by mistake that you know is wrong and you usually go correct it pretty quickly there's no reason for anyone in the world from his deadly decision about the Kurds in Syria to his alleged criminal conduct described in the report and revealed in his own words in his phone call with the of written mistakes by Donald Trump and the people working for him in the White House is now something close to the number of stars in the sky and in a typical presidency you can spend four the White House corrected his tweet that his defense secretary is Mark Esperanto Donald Trump's lifelock well have those moments can't quite tell when they're gonNA come it's kind of a mood thing times when you laugh about trump and time you just can't for whatever reason this hugh on twitter yesterday and a lot of laughs but I couldn't laugh this time sometimes I do sometimes laugh at trump nonsense and sometimes I just can't and I'm sure you long inability to care about details including details like the law is what has him on the verge of impeachment by the House representatives where the House Democrats are now working on an outline of what will become the impeachment case against the president in an exclusive report tonight. NBC News Says House Democrats are zeroing in our frame the depositions that mostly means the staff working weekends on the depositions we'll we'll see how many members actually show up weakened position Sarah Point thank you thank you work for their impeachment case against President Donald Trump that will center on a simple abuse of power narrative involving the president's actions regarding Ukraine according to multiple people familiar with the deliberations Democratic House Committee chairs and leaders are still debating the need for possible additional articles of impeachment or charges that extend beyond the presence dealing with Ukraine but according to NBC News Speaker Nancy Pelosi has been adamant that the case against trump must be targeted and easy to communicate in order to build public support according to those familiar with discussions tomorrow morning ambassador Bill Taylor the Act some Basha to Ukraine who sent a text message calling a quid pro quo over military assistance to Ukraine crazy that was his word which is very easy to understand impeachment telling reporters I've been real mindful of the fact that during Watergate all the people I knew said Oh they're just abusing Nixon and it's a witch hunt resentatives there is also a crack in the Republican Wall in the House representatives on Friday Republican Congressman Francis Rooney said that he is open to the possibility of voting for it is he is scheduled to be deposed tomorrow morning now now that it appears absolutely certain that there are more than enough democratic votes for impeachment in the house out it wasn't a witch hunt it was really bad when asked if the president's dealings with Ukraine amount of impeachable offense Carbon Rooney very very serious and troubling and the very next day on Saturday congressman Rooney's boldness came into clearer perspective when he said this I don't know I want to study it some more I want to hear the next set of testimony next week from a couple more passengers but it certainly in to make any judgment and Mitt Romney did another interview this weekend with axios on HBO ruling on TV and saying on Ukraine Lawrence still under debate is the second wave of charges which would be related to obstruction of justice contempt of Congress believe it or not Republican senator who might vote to convict Donald Trump in his impeachment trial in the Senate in an interview with the Atlantic's McKay coppins Senator Rondi said he will make up his mind announced that he is not going to run for re election to his house and the Senate Mitt Romney is becoming increasingly comfortable with the role of will you investigate my political opponent is wrong it's a mistake It was shocking for the in my opinion for the president to do so and a mistake for him to do so signed about the impeachment case when he hears all of the evidence at the impeachment trial Senator Romney told McKay coppins at this stage I am strenuously avoiding trying I can't imagine coming to different point of view we certainly can't have president's asking foreign countries to provide something of political value that is after all against the law to push the Ukrainians to try and cook up charges against the binds it includes all of those things but it is narrowly focused in the sense that it does just focus where did get the chief witness in the obstruction charges Don mcgann to testify before Congress and they don't want to give any excuses for HBO we do know Lawrence that right now she wants a simple article with an umbrella being abuse of power and underneath that everything that has offend with regards to Ukraine which included includes that phone call it includes the reports of a quid pro quo about the military aid it includes of abuse of power. The speaker's office did caution me that the actual legal drafting of articles has not begun because they haven't collected all of the anybody to not support what they believe is a clear cut case of an impeachable offense when it comes as well to obstruction Heidi Shing aside the former ambassador to Ukraine in order to install the president handpicked confidants who referred to themselves as the three Amigos who then helped taking up in order to curry favor with him but right now we're just looking at abusive power in Ukraine and then something separate on obstruction and Ukraine Nancy Pelosi or their whether nets Posey wants once start within policy a single article of impeachment that is simply about the phone call with the president of Ukraine or the possibility of including say elements of the Mullahs report obstruction of justice in separate articles of right now again we're a snapshot in time but according to my reporting the thing that has been decided is the abuse of power narrative that they will hammer out something obstruction slash contempt of Congress but the additional articles at this time are unlikely now that could change with pushback from various the big that's still really early Lawrence and I must stress that in my reporting that while there is this big umbrella focus on the narrative stakeholders and committee chair people who've been doing months of investigative work on issues like emoluments who believe that the president is clearly violating that committee chairman has already called on all committees to send their best information to judiciary which would then be tasked with drying up specific articles but make no mistake the speaker is going to be the one who drives this all and who makes all of these decisions as to specifically how many articles that are going to be and constitution by being continuing to you know own his companies and benefit from the presidency with the trump hotel in Washington and foreign governments there that's actually a much more difficult and contentious one to decide on whether that is going to be just Ukraine where they think they have a really strong case evidence yet and all of the information but historically what would happen is that all of the committees would send in their best information Jerry Nadler the judy law and a string of other things and does it is it is it a concern that to leave out this long string of things might leave them as certified ace for impeachment of the President I think that her instinct make it as simple as possible to understand with umbrella of abuse of power is really helpful leading off our discussion tonight or NBC News Correspondent Heidi Prisma Heidi broke the report about Democrats be focusing on the abuse of power in their articles of impeachment the October Eighth White House letter from Pat Sip Baloney the White House counsel basically telling Congress to to you know go go you know where and and the all too often democrats can really get bogged down in process arguments and making it a very simple clear this is about how trump has abused his office and US they're just not going to comply with anything and whether they're going to include anything on Muller and obstruction Lawrence I'm told there it's a little more difficult because Congress and maybe something from the Miller Report Mika with your experience working in the House on the Democratic staff side how does that sound to you and do you think people with a lot of different competing political interests here and a lot of different kinds of concerns but one thing that we've learned is that Nancy Pelosi is a master politician and her ability to under the House General Democrats would agree to that approach I think it's always a challenge to manage a caucus diverses one that's in the majority you've got MSNBC political analyst is with higher let me start with you and your breaking news reporting about what the Democrats are considering a window now whether out in in very bold colors exactly what the impeachable offense was now given what Mick Mulvaney did this week the here Chief Justice Roberts presiding we may not even be arguing about whether there was abuse of power the Republicans are now on the Oh drafting of articles and that is does it leave the implication if you leave out the emoluments violations that that's Ok does it in somehow refusal to obey the law an handover a very clear law that says Treasury Department must hand over any tax return the house ways and Means Committee demands they're violating the it is on the shakedown it's called second page is on the pressure campaign third page on the cover up so it lays forming for the president in the House representatives not really I've been speaking with some Republicans who the Democrats would be target argument that there was no quid pro quo is I know you don't like the expression but it's now in tatters so when we get into the trial and there's going to be a trial that's now Dan exactly where the caucus is what they can support and what the political implications are that is unmatched and then she's going to be able to marry that with what is the legal she's running a really disciplined efforts today she released a fact sheet would I which I would urge everybody to review it's just four pages I page those meetings were prior to Mick Mulvaney his confession essentially that it was a quid pro quo and so I think they're just kind of laying low for right now remember what will Rogers said about the Democrats know member of no organized political party I'm a Democrat Nancy postseason disproving this acceptable action for the future presence. I guess it is a concern but it's a balancing test because you WANNA be politically disciplined and Nancy Pelosi is a boss bear out he was withholding federally appropriated tax dollars endangering our national security because just to remind people this military aid was to be used by Ukraine which is a buffer country against Russian aggression in Russian expansion going forward does that sound to you like they are trying to make some kind of at least penciled in deadline at this point yeah I think they are awesome how certify what Donald Trump has done running a hotel business in Washington for example taking income from foreign governments that way does does it certify his indication in your reporting of what the process will be how will the Democrats arrive at a consensus of what the shape of the articles should very bad state of affairs for Donald Trump where all your arguing about is not whether he did something really wrong but just whether it rises to the level of impeachment and that's all Yang as well this former member of the house staff member of the House Intelligence Committee she's the Vice President of National Security Program at the Third Way and Jonathan Alter Columnists daily sitting at order to get boats from some Republicans and they've said they really just want proof positive that this is a quid pro quo well you know there's a specific framing of this it's not just abuse of power because he was withholding a White House meeting it's abuse of power because reportedly and if the facts are and what typically happens is when you have something that's of an urgent national concern the schedule goes out the window you wind up working around the clock you work weekends ace the Democrats can make in front of the whole country in that trial hiding does your reporting and your reporting are you finding any kind of lines of defense way to admitting that there was abuse of power then the only argument will be does it rise to the level of impeachment that is a very power for his own personal benefit that can help cut through all the legalese Jonathan there is there's a risk to history in a very narrow a lot of sleepless nights ahead of that because it's not just the depositions themselves it's going through them it's fact checking it's pulling in all the documents that they've asked for there's a lot former justice department official Matt Miller will join us to connect those dots along with former federal prosecutor Mimi Roca next end streaming APPs like net flicks prime video and more see Cox dot com for details the trump justice department is the justice department had to issue a formal statement of regret that they allowed Rudy Giuliani in the door while he was under investigation associates in the southern district of New York and would not have met with him had they known Donald Trump has claimed that he doesn't know the Giuliani Asian. When Assistant Attorney General Brian Bench Hausky and fraud section lawyers met with Mr Giuliani they were not aware of any investigation of Mr Giuliani as members of Donald Trump's legal team they have also been described as alleged criminals working for Russian gangsters and they are actually currently indicted and therefore it becomes a danger and a risk to our national security and that is the framing the Democrats are going to use with the public and with these as you pointed out it's usually the staff does that members will pop in but you will press really hard towards the deadline so the staff and the members were working on these issues Contour from Cox has all your favorites all in one place and with the contour remote you can use your voice to fund them on live TV on demand apple does that convince some of the Republicans and some of these people who are on the fence that this was in fact the quid pro quo the kind of real to go through here but what they are doing with all that information and filling in the details we know the basic outline of this we know that the president was using his ernest posted this victory photo with Rudy Giuliani and trump's personal attorney Jay seculow at a celebratory dinner during our discussion now journal obtained access to love partisans private instagram account which shows that he had regular access to president trump and rouge now there's definitely the majority of Republicans who will never vote for this but they don't need the majority they just need some Republicans vote for it and in my discussions with Democrats that his clients could not testify the impeachment investigation because among other reasons they were part of the trump legal defense team through their work with Rudy Giuliani the Wall Street in case and now that everyone in the Justice Department knows that we were Giuliani is under investigation by the US attorney in in New York after that story broke publicly so that some of them were granting meetings with Juliana yeah look it's possible that I mean that's true sometimes the right hand left hand the Department of Justice is they say had we known that Giuliani's associates were under investigation we wouldn't have met with Juliani those two things don't necessarily offended by the compartmentalization apparently of the knowledge that Rudy Giuliani and his friends are under investigation so we have it's since been fist to put pressure on Ukrainians for his own personal benefit it's just the question of how and then the real issue will be once we have all that evidence and they lay that all out there before the American I don't know what the other one is doing it's also possible that there was a very deliberate effort by the southern district of New York not to let other people in the Department of Justice know about it Johnny on March twenty fifth just one day after returning genuine generally embar released his four-page memo of the Muller Report Department justice but you could just decide this we're putting a lid on this I think what's interesting though one thing that's interesting about the statement that was put out closing the door to Rudy Giuliani he is not welcome there anymore now that he is under investigation by the US Attorney in Manhattan investigation that some members of the William Bar Justice Department given the sensitivities of who Rudy Giuliani is and who who's close to and who he might hear things from I'm not saying the southern district doesn't trust other people friends and associates who have been indicted in the investigation by the Manhattan US Attorney but the lawyer for Parnasse and you're firman told the House representatives the power that a lot of people think that it was Biko Yang thank you for joining us started discussions and I and Heidi principal thank you for joining us with your breaking news reporting really important Arocca former assistant us attorney in the Southern District of New York and Matt Miller a former spokesman for Attorney General Eric holder they are both MSNBC contributor and Mimi I am I'm forgetting US thank you very much John Please stick around with us and when we come back to friends of Rudy Giuliani who have worked with Giuliani were described by their lawyer visit yes William Bar knew about it was known about the highest levels because it's normal to report those kinds of things from US attorneys But apparently not enough people in the Justice Department knew about it there's I think there's still a little wiggle room in terms of actually going to show up from the positions but if they're going to work straight through the weekends then they'll be more likely to hit that deadline and when they say worked the weekends Republicans are hoping to bring over Mika want to check with you on Rachel's reporting of top of the hour that they're now going to be scheduling some depositions on weekends not know about when they had a meeting with Giuliani recently it was a kind of routine meeting the defense lawyers have with prosecutors all the time originally awning was there as a member of a defense team. There's no reason why I couldn't get a meeting with the Department of Justice it's only if that investigation hostage with me and remember this other district the Department of Justice has never officially confirmed we follow if associates of mine and I'm a defense attorney are under investigation but I have nothing to do with that investigation that doesn't Jason uniquely suited to explain why this is happening new episodes of why is this happening every Tuesday listen for free wherever you get your podcasts because they they show what you can't explain there's no way he can say he didn't know them I mean sure the president takes a lot of pictures of maybe with people he does no but there is a whole series of them here they look very intimate with Giuliani I mean Giuliani if and when he is under indictment is going to have a stronger we now we have a straight line to Russian organized crime through Parnis and crewmen and Giuliani I mean they are connected to Dimitri for Tash as against him in exhibit one is going to be pictures and Matt if they are closely connected with kind of deadly Russian gangsters that look of of them with the president himself getting notes from the president thank you notes from the president and their lawyers saying they were part of the trump defense team books foreign policy operation for the president where State Department employees were expected to report to Rudy Giuliani and take direction from Rudy Giuliani. So if you're at the Justice Department taking a meeting you're saying that these men were aiding in his defense his case I mean it's not real legal work so I don't like using those terms I mean this is Ukraine scandal it probably has to do with those early days when they squashed a full investigation it was the head of the criminal investigation who's taking the heat for squash net investigation there's something I think we in Ukraine and maybe president saying he doesn't know who these Giuliani Guy Pals are who got indicted now more pictures come being made this is really like you couldn't make this up because no one would believe you and those photographs are so incriminating they are a prosecutors dream come true with him you have to wonder if you give him an answer that he doesn't like about his client he's GonNa go and report you to your boss the president of the United States it's a very problematic situation it's incredible and we've talked so much about how the trump presidency the administration walks like the mob toxic the mob looks like the mob litter it is Russian organized crime who is under indictment himself here who is fighting Matt and now that is a direct line to Giuliani we have his own when he's there extensively representing or is he speaking on behalf of his other client the President United States we've already seen where he tried to basically took over the State Department was running take them very inhibited if the federal prosecutors are trying to get some cooperation out of them yeah it certainly might look I think the the story that that is going to start to it Rudy Giuliani's not welcome here anymore yeah well first of all means exactly right it was a- the Justice Department implicitly confirming what they can't explicitly say which is the statement reads to me like the head of the criminal division trying to distance himself from it and I think what it says is there's something that we don't yet know about the department's involvement I think that the the thing that I take away from the statement though is less about the underlying substance of the meeting and more about what's happening at the Justice Department that wasn't a very unusual shit and when we come back Tim O'Brien has expertise in Donald Trump's taxes because he's actually seen trump tax returns in the middle of Giuliani is the subject of an investigation they can't say that because their rules prohibit them from saying that but they're letting everyone know that that's why they wouldn't have taken this meeting I think the problem for the Party no that's gonNA still still to come out and because of that everyone at the department is running as far and as fast as they can from Rudy Giuliani and anything best allegation look these aren't the first members of Donald Trump's legal team to go to jail obviously his former personal attorney went to jail and I think you're right if I were then though tells is just another trump act of sacrifice in the presidency that's next allegation when Donald Trump was suing him and now Donald Trump is saying that giving up having the G. Seven at one of his dark with ties to the Russian mob and so they were I think trying to affect choate this really corrupt trade where they would get information from the Ukrainian oligarch manufactured dirt about some kind of dismissal from the Justice Department or some kind of way for him to get out of his case it is as corrupt as you can be and now you have both of them both of them under indictment and Rudy Giuliani under the resistance one again the resistance crushed donald trump again this time it was trump's dream I would be much more scared of offending this Ukrainian oligarch with tides of the Russian mob that I would be federal prosecutors Miller Mimi Roca thank you both for your expertise tonight really also happen to be an illegal conspiracy to have the next g seven meeting at a trump hotel in Florida and this time the resistance was bipartisan this weekend Republican members of Congress let Donald when asked today about why he changed his mind about trying to get away with the obviously illegal scheme the present blamed the Democrats only for same time for the privilege of staying at a trump hotel was just too much to bear even four Republican members of Congress urge here is if they were working for Rudy Giuliani they were for donald trump they weren't being paid because we know donald trump wasn't paying rudy Giuliani he's working on on on his behalf for Free Joe Biden that's not true supply to Rudy Giuliani who would supply to the president of the United States and in return they were going to try to deliver for this Ukrainian oligarch who is under indictment planning too much about it and while he was at it he mentioned quote this phony emoluments clause and quote the emoluments clause in the constitution you're taking this me in the first place is really kind of a walking conflict of interest when he comes in and meets with the Justice Department you don't know who's who he's speaking for is he speaking on behalf of the that no one has ever complained about before Donald Trump is the emoluments clause donald trump is the only Sushi that people have disliked from the start like slavery and a number of other things that were changed through amendments to the constitution but one thing like everything else in the constitution is not phony for better or worse the words of the Constitution or the words we have to live by in this country there are things in the and his White House staff know that trying to defend his illegal scheme to enrich himself by having the federal government and foreign governments pay him at what I think what we're doing is they were then trying to monetize their access to the present their access to renew Juliana by going out and signing up separately this this Ukrainian all statements for for Doj to make and the thing that was so unusual it was just about the head of the Criminal Division The AG did know did the deputy Joe did know that rudy was under investigation Shirley got much thinner after his appearance on Fox News yesterday that's next the president in history to be locked in litigation about the emoluments clause because of his unyielding determination to make money from the presidency including from foreign legal scheme on the man who publicly announced the illegal scheme chief-of-staff Mick Mulvaney who's thin ice Mick Mulvaney who got the job last week announcing Donald Trump's illegal scheme to hold the G. Seven summit and one of his Florida hotel thousand yesterday it of course fell to Mick Mulvaney to explain why Donald Trump planned the illegal scheme in the first place and then why Donald Trump inside his hotels especially the hotel in Washington and the hotel he lives at in Florida and of course Donald Trump is now blaming his failure to pull off his the rocks I'm so glad that the White House hasn't learned yet that they need to keep Mick mulvaney under lock and key because he's put out there with the president's put out there that this has been back with us Tim the the trump plan launched last week by Mick Mulvaney was going along smoothly until this weekend and then George Washington wasn't inviting foreigners to give him money because he knew that that was a violation of the constitution gave up on it at the end of the day you know he's still considers himself to be in the hospitality business and he saw an opportunity to take the biggest leaders from around the his business was domestic it's true there have been other presidents who've had domestic business but there's a bright line that the constitution draws between doing business people overseas and doing business at home and to me one a lot of credit today for not taking the presidential salary forty thousand dollars JFK didn't take it United States that thing that he was taking an oath to uphold you would think that they might read it once to find out what was in it there's nothing phony about it the the hang around his attitude towards Vladimir Putin and when he wanted the g seven to be Terrell wasn't because he's just in the hospitality business it wasn't because he thought it was the best place on is news Tim O'Brien he's the executive editor of Bloomberg opinion on MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR WHO's a longtime student of the workings of the businesses of Donald Trump Jonathan alter is founders were very very clear about this then he tried to say well George Washington he had a business desk and then he had a president's desk never never ever tell you and Steve Mnuchin knows nothing about how much money I have that's how we should translate that in that same tapie also said at some point of course yes always through somebody under the bus but you know the Durrell was losing money and this idea
Trump turns to courts amid election setbacks
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Nbc and get twenty percents off your first order. That's b. o. M. b. a. s. dot com slash. Nbc bam dot com slash nbc. Good evening i'm already barbara anchoring special coverage of this unresolved presidential election. We have the latest for you with. Msnbc steve kornacki. At the big board our expert guests will break down this unfolding story reporters on the ground tracking the impact of this rapidly. Shifting map you see them out there. We're gonna go there shortly. We also have breakthroughs for biden late today and bbc news now. Projecting joe biden is the apparent winner in wisconsin. That's a new call. And the projected winner and michigan michigan. Being a new call within the last ninety minutes. It enlarges biden's lead the two hundred fifty electoral votes over two hundred and fourteen electoral votes for president trump now all eyes on the ongoing counting and pennsylvania to deliver the biden the white house if he wins and arizona get biden close by emphasize it and remarks late today outlining his expected. Victory and a pledge to unify this divided nation after a long night of county is clear that we're winning enough states to reach two hundred seventy electoral votes needed to win the presidency. And when the count is finished we believe we will be the winners. There will be no blue states red states when we win just the united states of america as for donald trump has not spoken today his campaign staff taking the lead arguing they still see paths to victory and filing new court challenges which will cover later tonight. This is fraud. This is absolute fraud. All of you thought there was some kind of legitimate. Count going on here in philadelphia. It was totally illegitimate. We are going to file suit in pennsylvania. This is a concerted effort of the corpse to run the democrat party. We're gonna win pennsylvania but they're trying to cheat us out of it. That's the latest from both sides. Now let's clearly and calmly just taken where we are now exactly twenty four hours out from when election night formerly began. We know more about the results right now. Biden is up in the electoral college and the total vote as he laid out in those remarks. Today biden is the only candidate to also win two new battleground states today. Donald trump is down in the electoral college and the total vote. He is suing and threatening to sue in several states. Candidates with the lead do not suit a change the results. That's what candidates do when they see the counting leading to their loss now but he americans went to bed last night with all kinds of feelings and everyone's entitled to their feelings we can't fact check felix but we can fact check facts. Donald trump falsely claimed victory last night and he was wrong to demand. That states stopped counting the votes. He also failed. I can report for you tonight. The counting continues it continues under law. We will keep reporting it out now. Many people like things fast. But we're not talking about a wi fi connection here. We're talking about our democracy. The stakes are much higher than speed or even fatigue. This is an election. We are resolving in these days ahead. This is a democracy. We're trying to maintain and we cannot forget. Democracy does not turn on what a politician says. Even the president democracy turns on what we all do. What you do in this next part is up to all of us for the facts. Turn to the one. And only steve kornacki with the latest at the big board steve. Yeah all well. Let's take a look here. The road to two seventy mentioned michigan go into biden this afternoon. Two fifty three for biden. We're can we expect to learn something. New from one of these days is still outstanding. I would look tonight to arizona. Let me show you. What's happening in arizona here with about eighty six percent of the voting. Joe biden here leading nine by ninety three thousand votes statewide in arizona. We expect tonight probably around sometime around. Nine o'clock eastern. We're going to get an update on the vote in arizona. We think we're going to get a couple of hundred thousand votes potentially reported out of maricopa county. That's the biggie. That's the phoenix metro area. Oh there we go. The camera wasn't there as the phoenix metro area. That's about two thirds of the state population wise and basically the ballots. That are still to come in maricopa. And then there are some in the counties outside maricopa what they are are. They are the latest arriving mail ballots. They came in like a day before the election or they were ballots. That were brought in by voters. Mail ballots that were brought in by voters on election day. So that's the very particular batch of ballots. Were talking about there and the question is just going to be when we get that update for maricopa county. The question's going to be is donald trump making gains in that vote is he cutting into the biden. Lead biden expanding the lead. Trump's gotta show that that's a favorable batch of vote to him if he's not able to do that than arizona's going to look a very less promising for trump is what i'm trying to say and again the stakes there. If biden does hold on and win arizona he'd moved to to sixty four. And that would bring up the next state to mention here nevada because the margin right now in nevada is seventy six hundred votes for joe biden. Nevada officials have told us that they expect to moro at noon eastern time to announce most of the rest of their results. Although there are some local reports out there that they may be speeding that up to tonight's. There's a little bit of in there but sometime between tonight at noon tomorrow. We expect to find out most of the rest of the votes in nevada. They have told us. Those ballots are mail ballots. They are late arriving. Mail ballots and their provisional ballots. Not same day vote. What's outstanding in nevada. Mayo ballots the came in very laid out there so again. We want to see them. Start to report those out. See what the trend is. Are they favorable. The biden are favorable. The trump outstanding in nevada and again biden up seventy six hundred if he holds onto that lead gets arizona and nevada. That would be two hundred seventy electoral votes for joe biden. And so if you've just outlined one of the past and that's a path without pennsylvania it's a path that according to the numbers could be resolved within days which is striking the last thing i have to ask. You is the shortest question tonight. How many hours have you slept since this thing started point. Three facts about right. We'll be back you throughout the evening on our special coverage. Steve kornacki holding down. We go right to detroit where nbc's heidi prisma has been reporting on some disruptions at the very center where votes are being tallied. Heidi hey area. I'm standing outside the tc center here in downtown detroit. Where final absentee ballots. That were coming in around. The city are now being counted. And i'm told that they're pretty close to finishing it up however throughout the day. What we saw here was of huge crowd gathering of self-proclaimed. Gop poll-watchers so many of them in fact that a number of them had stormed the inside room where. The poll counting pull ballot. Counting is going on and eventually the police had to intervene and they had to block the extra individuals behind me who were trying to get in. Now i've talked to lawyers for the democrats and they say it really didn't in the end affect their ability to do their job but they're concerned that this really just an attempt to try and cast this whole process of something illegitimate. When it's exactly what state officials told us would happen ari. Which is that. There was not enough time to count these belts. The secretary of state the ag begged the republican legislature to give them more time to do pre canvassing to count all of these historic this historic number of absentee ballots. That were coming in and they said no and so everybody in the state new. It wasn't going to get done on election night and yet here. We have protesters creating the scene trying to suggest that somehow this process is not legitimate. Ari heidi puzzle on the ground with the context. We appreciate that and stay safe out there. I want to turn out a very special guest. The trump campaign filed a suit today. They are suing these secretary of state of michigan jocelyn benson and she joins us now in our msnbc special coverage secretary steve benson. Thanks for joining me pleasure. Thanks for having me absolutely. I'm holding this brand new lawsuit. You are named as a defendant jocelyn benson in your official capacity as secretary of state. I propose we begin with the lightning rounds so people can understand what if anything is impacted. Then give you time to give us a more lengthy consideration of the issues but yes or no. Does this suit change any of the counting process thus far that your state is doing nope it does not. We've got a transparent secure. Meticulous process can continue to count every vote and ensure that every valid vote is counted. and yes or no. Does this in your view change anything regarding the numbers you've provided to the press which has begun calling some of these races including nbc projecting biden winning michigan. Now that it does not either again. We're continuing to count every vote where we've trust process we've been transparent and And and we stand by the numbers the process and the hard-working election workers who've been tabulating every vote since the polls opened a seven. Am on tuesday topic. So i think that's very important because you're giving us a context for what this is done. thus far. This suit has not changed anything in michigan. Now i wanna give you a little more time and walk us through. What is your response on. Behalf of the state to what. The trump campaign is accusing because there are effectively saying that michigan and you are messing up and that somehow you're not following the rules that provide for this type of transparency and oversight of accounting which regardless of which candidate people like is the law of the land is important. Your response so. Let's let me be abundantly clear. First of all this meritless frivolous lawsuit and really just an attempt to sow seeds of doubt about the integrity of our well established election process protocols. You're right at the moment. When we anticipated a lot of misinformation was get a target our state from the minute the polls close to the minute we were about to and get very close to having that full tabulation so recognize it for what it is an attempt to confuse an obstacle what actually is a very transparent secure process in michigan where all of our legal protocols have been followed by election workers thousands of whom we've been working for hours through the night meticulously tabulate every vote and we will continue to do so as i've said again made abundantly clear. There is no candidate no campaign though political party who will stand in the way of our commitment to ensure that every valid vote in michigan will be counted and that only valid votes in michigan. We'll be counted. Final question to you is not about the actual lawsuit which again they have the ability to file so that is part of the legal process and we'll see where it goes but something much broader from the president had states today. He has posted online through twitter that he quote sheer by claims. The state of michigan. If in fact there were a large number of secretly dumped ballots has been widely reported and quote. Just so folks understand. I believe this is the odd part of reporting these matters in two thousand twenty but just doing my job here when a sitting president says he quote here by claims michigan eventuality of some belief. Does that have any significance whatsoever to who wins michigan your response. It does not because candidates don't declare and decide who wins elections voters do election workers tabulate every vote. That's what decides who wins or loses an election. that's how democracy works and that's exactly the process. We're following here in michigan It's a process. I'm proud of. It's a process. I stand by. And it's a process that a number of citizens and millions of voters all across the state have placed their faith in by casting their ballots on time and we'll work to ensure again that every valid vote is counted in. Frankly push back against all the misinformation that we continue to see escalate across the country and on social media as false information designed to falsely arm the integrity of our elections when instead. We're doing everything by the books and everyone. You have confidence that the ultimate results out of michigan will be an accurate reflection of the will of the people understood sexually say benson here providing an on the record response both the lawsuit and the president's rather unusual claims. Appreciate your time tonight. A new interview to be sure. Now we turn to washington post columnist pulitzer prize winner. Eugene robinson david. Plus who managed barack obama's victorious two thousand eight campaign Good evening to both of you. David having been around these states. I'm curious your reaction to what we just heard. The secretary of state obviously has to deal with this in the courts But do you think she is basically right To dismiss most everything that trump and his campaign are doing in michigan. Right now absolutely are so you know this network and others has declared. Joe biden a winner michigan. But he's the apparent winner in wisconsin. Only because now trump's gonna say there's a recount but a twenty thousand vote lead is an enormous enormously so he's on the precipice of securing enough electoral votes to be president. And what's interesting of course as you see trump suggesting in states that he's currently leading pennsylvania. Georgia we shouldn't count anymore boats or only trump but in arizona and nevada He's obviously eager for for the county congenial there so You know. I think he can see the walls closing in on him. His way to the presidency is just about over until i think the question is joe. Biden's likely to end up to seventy if arizona. Nevada hold we see more both there but of course both pennsylvania georgia are very close and so i think the range of outcomes is anywhere from two seventy of the narrowest of margins to three six. And that's where we stand. And i think for the most part trump just calling into the wind doesn't mean that democratic lawyers won't take everything he says seriously and and try to push back but at the end of the day you know he's gonna lose this election and there's nothing he can do about it. It is very uncomfortable for his odyssey sitting. united states. president basically declaring one votes. don't matter of an autocrat. it's deeply unsettling. But i think basically that's far as it goes. Well david you say tallying into the wind. Everyone knows you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind is blowing on credit credit dylan and the wind as you say is blowing towards to seventy for biden. Nbc is not projecting that yet we want to be very clear. We all saw steve in caution and those numbers. But we also are counting. What you said at the low end would be to seventy if you got there through nevada and basically the the midwest there you could add or georgia to get up to three zero five two zero six as you say when you look at this day with does it tell you something. And here's the map for everyone. This is what we currently have to fifty three to fourteen visit. Tell you something. David that for all of donald trump's bluster and these lawsuits. He is not out speaking today. We had one candidate. Joe biden just address. The nation and trump is sort of hunker down and letting other people his family. We just saw rudy. Giuliani a carry. The message cast of characters that was in philadelphia. Can't wait till they're often national stage. But yeah i think so and you know. You can't tweet your way to changing election results. I think it says a lot. He hasn't gone out as you can see for the most part so far whether it's fox news a lot of republican officials are not following trump down just as they did when he used. We should change the election day or voting about balancing or fraudulent. The rest of the party didn't follow down that route and following them right now so Yeah i think it is. He understands what's happening. And i think at the end of the day we'll know within twenty four hours. It sounds like a with. Some finality was happening in arizona and nevada at perhaps enough in pennsylvania and georgia. So let's just wait. We're gonna know soon enough Really have been four years in the making we can wait another twenty four hours. If that's what it takes. Jane david absolutely right. I mean what we've seen happening last night and through today is what we talked about for the last couple of weeks which was a possibility of a ran mirage. We knew that that but most of Many democrats most democrats Were planning to vote by mail. And we're voting by mail and that Republicans especially from supporting republicans. Were not entirely vote by mail. We're gonna vote in orson and so There was a possibility that but trump vote would be counted. I in a wasp places and it would appear that he was had anybody at a lead and then as those Mail in ballots. Were were counted. You would see biden in many cases overtaken and that's exactly what we have. We have seen in the returns and it wasn't unanticipated and as as david said You know we. We have not called this election. Nbc hasn't watching posted associated press. Hasn't but it's obvious from koernke's numbers that that that vice president biden is very close to two seventy and really within hours on certainly within twenty four hours We can have a sense You know we. The news organizations could could be the point where they can call the election. And it is highly significant. I think that the president has not himself come out and and then tried to speed Because you didn't really know what to say he has to say. Don't count these votes over here but yes. Please count these other votes over there. It's not the simple equation that we had or simpler equation that we had florida in two thousand or one side was saying we need to count more on the other side was saying. Don't count anymore. The president has to try to argue both sides of question. And you know you can't do that thing. Is you know as we just heard from. The top election official michigan. The things that he's doing that while we will report them so people understand them in her view and she's in charge there. They have not changed a single vote yet in michigan which now has projection important to keep in. Mind our expertise with us. But i've got new reporting out of harrisburg pennsylvania. One of these open race is still going a big delegate hall there for obviously whichever candidate can win the electoral votes. Msnbc's chris dancing reporting for us in pennsylvania. Chris what are you seeing. Well look got some new numbers for you first of all. We've watched this race titan here throughout the day so still the president leading but by a few hundred thousand less than he was when we all woke up this morning if anybody ever went to bed and not. That biden came out saying he believes so win. Pennsylvania here's the way the numbers are right now. There's still one hundred and ten thousand votes around pittsburgh. In fact they think they're going to finish voting by the morning going to keep working through the night. The pittsburgh steelers said they're going to send dinner to those workers so we'll have a good count there in the meantime in philly. They don't want to tell us when they think they'll be done. They have about one hundred and twenty thousand outstanding votes when you talk to the commissioners in some of the smaller counties they think it may be as late as friday when the last those mail in ballots will be accepted but at a seventy eight percent rate for biden those mail and votes so far. That's the reason that campaign feels good about it because so many of those votes are concentrated in places where they are strong again. Don't expect account tonight. Maybe even tomorrow good chance. A lot of people are telling me on. Friday ari really interesting. The updated numbers and the outlook in the days. Ahead chris dancing. Thank you for staying up with us. Bring back gene robinson. David plus david when you are pennsylvania that was one of the places where donald trump did do well last time last night he was musing on. How gosh if you're doing really well in the sixth inning. It doesn't seem fair to keep playing. We're in the eighth inning. And the score is tighter. Biden said very confidently. Today he thinks by the ninth inning. They lied and what is your knowledge of that state. Tell you well first of all right. Joe biden is saying he's ahead in arizona and nevada. Keep counting the votes last night. We all watched as biden. Got out to lead in texas in iowa in ohio and florida because the votes were counted than is the election day. Vote game in trump went ahead. The only reason we're faced with a situation pennsylvania michigan wisconsin is state law. That prevented early. Votes are being countered into election night. So it's ridiculous. So listen i think if you pennsylvania is going to be close of course but if you look at the votes that are outstanding and the margins. That biden is winning currently and my guess is. He'll do better with these votes because it doesn't include any election day votes. I would consider him a narrow favourite in pennsylvania and what's remarkable is in two thousand sixteen. Donald trump went all three of those states. Wisconsin michigan and pennsylvania so narrowly the margin now in michigan is growing. I think it's over sixty thousand votes. Which is much higher than he wanted. I but you're looking at wisconsin and pennsylvania. Maybe being the mirror of what happened in two thousand sixteen And when i look at the numbers you know we'd we'd should be careful. Exit polls were also means of the exit polls may be off but trump maintained his strong performance in the middle of the state in the rural and exurban areas for shore biden. Looks like he clawed back. Some blue collar areas particularly in the northeastern part of the state did very well in the philadelphia suburbs. We don't yet have a final turnout for philadelphia but trump did very well on turnout. That was the thing that always concerned me no matter what the polls showed was if he brought his people out and really his numbers like wisconsin he won by a million with one million four hundred thousand votes last time. He put up a million six hundred thousand votes. That's a lot of votes of joe. Biden was able to narrowly a put up more. So that's again i think. Why the reason. Pennsylvania so closes trump did a very good job of driving up as vote. Biden is going to win. Just because he did veteran the suburbs and clinton did and i think in places like scrim and other places up in up the river in particular on the eastern side of the state He was able to narrow those margins. If you're tracking at home the speed of david plus voice tells you. The level of obama biden excitement he has. That's my personal observation. And he's talking faster tonight than he was at certain moments last night from the early returns unscientific. I admit i've been in a break. We way over. David plus gene robinson. Thank you so much indebted to your insights as well as all of our reporters we shortest break now. Thirty seconds when we come back we look at why. Donald trump's recounts strategies headed for brick wall. We're back in thirty seconds. She just over a third of the vote in in wisconsin very close between them so long way to go in terms of wisconsin and the eyes of the nation upon. Wisconsin so nbc. News can now say that. Joe biden is the parents winner in wisconsin. The apparent winner in wisconsin. There you have it and that's what it looks like from a long way last night. Too apparent winner today the nbc news projection breaking. They're putting wisconsin in this flipped. Category adding joe biden's lead right now at two hundred and fifty three electoral votes over two hundred fourteen for donald trump. right here. You see biden beating clinton's margin in several key places in wisconsin so to get into it. We have well some of the perfect guests in our view wisconsin congresswoman gwen moore and democratic campaign legend. James carville good to see both. Hey are a nice to be here great to have you a congresswoman more. What happened in wisconsin. Well we knew that the so called red mirage would occur in wisconsin Our state laws forbid or course Our Election workers from sorting through the ballots until election. Day at seven. Am and so because he was a greater demand for absentee ballots of the democratic party. Wanting to make sure people could vote safely and of course some -sconsin had the really traumatic experience in april We really executed that for graham. Really really well Followed up with absentee voters and in the city of milwaukee. We only lost ten thousand absentee ballot voters And i'm not sure even if those people showed up same day but we we. We focused on people remaining safe and and we had a tremendous turnout And and and of course. Those ballots could be counted until election day. Same thing happened in two thousand eighteen with people you know actual people at the victory party to please go home. Go to bed. Their forty thousand absentee ballots sitting down in milwaukee where we will you know for those of us watching late night which was a lot of the country james. We saw you break out the champagne bottle that you weren't ready to pop last night It's not time to pop it yet but you could do a fireball shot or a shot at back here for at least one st at a time. I wanna put back on screen for you be the guru james. I wanna put back up for a little more time here by now. Performing clinton in these wisconsin four largest counties day rock green milwaukee on substance james. What do you think buying the democrats offered voters in those counties. That broke through this time with again. Nbc calling this the apparent winner. I mean first of all trump offered him. he was a big shift. She was not even comedy was in common. Nothing people's all across the country saw that. I want to one more thing. We're not just gonna win. Pennsylvania we're gonna have pennsylvania by one hundred bucks the second point i want to make it. It is not a given that. we're not control. The united states senate is a very good chance that there's a runoff purdue offshore operates in. Somebody looks at the number of ballots that out in alaska yet to be counted and do some basic basic math. They'll see that. We have a shot at the alaska. Senate seat joe biden is going to be the next. The united states. He's going to carry pennsylvania. He is a reasonable chance. I don't know if it's fifty fifty inch a reasonable chance to carry georgia. They're about two hundred thousand. Absentees left account for do trump had six seven out lee produce. Forty seven thousand. Brought me all right so we baid berry. I'll be gone to post with two senate races in georgia and alaska is did. The fat lady ain't yet waging knock knock at james you know the saying happy warrior. You almost sound like an angry winner. No i'm ready to fight. I'm just this. This is not win this game because we have this new. We have news. The new statement from joe biden which some folks coming home may not have heard yet. I wanna play a little more of it because as you know james and politics. There's what's true and there's what's known and what was known where people went to bed. Last night may be very different than what's true. And i'm just going to tell you. Exactly what joe biden said. That is true. Even though we're not calling anything. He talked about how he and senator harris are winning more votes than anyone. In the history of elections. Take a listen senator harrison. I are on track to win. More votes than any ticket. In the history of this country ever won the presidency and vice presidency over seventy million votes very proud of our campaign. Only three presidential campaigns in the past have defeated an incumbent president. When it's finished god ruling will be the fourth james. What's true and what's known here. We are on this election evening. After last night i give you the mike to address the nation. What is true is joe biden will be actually the united states paraphrase. David club trump mark. Flea bitten doll bayonet move. He got the you got. Beat and pennsylvania got beat and michigan. He got beat in wisconsin. He got beat nevada. He got beat in arizona and he may get beat in george and last night i tell all these democrats just go ahead and put the brakes of blades and amion back in a mess and cabinet. We're gonna be fine no clocks. We actually knew midnight last night in. We're going to win. we're not pennsylvania is not going to be particularly when i think one hundred sixty thousand dollars. It's not looking at people that brindley go down too granular counting and percentages and things that a little bit out of my liberal launch background. But they know what you're talking about it. We still have a real shot in georgia and we still have a real shot at the alaska. Senate seat if you'd asked me to present. Its can't tell you but until somebody finishes this off. I'm still i'm not. I'm not hanging anything right now. I feel you let me bring in congressman before we finish a break. I am duty-bound to say that. Mr karas here for his expertise. He mentioned some states that nbc has not called. He spoke in the past tense about pennsylvania. It has not been called. Both sides are allowed to tell us where they think. It's going well james. don't shake your head. I'm just doing my job. i'm not. I'm speaking for james carville inc. I'm not speaking for national. I now understand when the same question to you congresswoman. What is true. And what is no. Because there's such a rush with these things. And i wanna stay tonight. We know more about the truth. Will americans see the coalition that appears to be emerging with the total vote. A lot more people choosing a democrat for the white house in the vote. We have this far then trump well. I am extremely disappointed that we have such a divided country. But i do see a pathway toward healing when you look at michigan wisconsin and pennsylvania. What they really have in common a really hard working blue collar workers of every race and color a men and women people who have really suffered a lot from being aspirational and having been middle class. The bid really kicked out of the middle class because of our economic conditions they would for trump. they went for obama and they're now coming home their catholic. Their hard work is some of them. Were labor workers at trump a chance. And they're coming home and we knew then reinstalling. The so-called blue wall was going to help us towards this reconciliation. You know. I hate to see this country in terms of red and blue but i do think joe biden is just a person in this is just the time for such person to bring healing together congresswoman war james carville raging cajun. Thanks to both of you. We fitted our break coming up a fact check. Donald trump's battle in the courts is more than hill might be a brick wall. I'm always a little jealous. When i see people cruising around an electric bike they look like so much fun. Good for getting out nature cruising around town and our sponsor rad power. Bikes knows better than anyone that these bikes are also great for commercial use like rental fleets urban deliveries or warehouse logistics. I mean whenever. I see the pizza delivery guy on one. I think what a great way to get your deliveries done while saving on gas. 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Each we care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like by a world class german blade factory obsessing over every detail means we're confident and offering a one hundred percent quality guarantee. Millions of guys have already made the switch to harry's so thank you if you're one of them and if you're not we hope you give us a try with this special offer. Get a harry starter. Set with a five blade. Razor waited handle shave gel and travel cover offered just three bucks plus free shipping just go to harrys dot com and enter five zero five zero at checkout. That's harrys dot com code. Five zero five zero. Enjoy special coverage i'm ari melber and here's the news. Joe biden the projected winner in michigan. Joe biden the apparent winner in wisconsin. He's also eyeing leads in other states. Which has the trump campaign now going from canvassing to the courts as we were discussing the michigan secretary. Stay tonight. there's a new suit their over meaningful access to the counting process demanding also separately. A kind of wisconsin where nbc projects biden is not only the winner but by a margin of over twenty thousand votes. Now that's still less than one percent which means under the law trump can get the recount the more on that margin later tonight with a fact check but right now i want to tell you. Trump's also dredging up voter fraud allegations with zero evidence and pennsylvania suing the stop the vote count hoping the supreme court might step back in the court has left in place up to now a ruling that allows this counting to go forward. We welcome now charles. The co director of the duke law center on law race and politics and expert on many of these elections voting issues and back with us a friend of the beat. Michelle goldberg from the new york. Times michelle picture. What does it tell you that. The trump campaign today before all the counting is done is rushing to the courts. I think it's that. They know that they have probably lost. And they've lost before some of the ballots that you would expect to be contested. Have come in right about that. Are being counted in pennsylvania. Right now are not ballots. That arrived after election day right. There has been some legal controversy over whether those ballots would be admitted. But that's not what we're talking about these. These are just totally legitimate Ballots that they didn't finish counting yesterday. It's really normal for vote counts to stretch out past Election days and it's more pronounced this year because the corona viruses lead to this huge uptick in Absentee and early voting. So everybody knew this was gonna happen right. Everybody sort of said expect to see very high margins for trump in some of these states that have deliberately refused to let people start the vote count before election day. Right to sort of create this red mirages people call it and what they're trying to do is to suggest that there is something untoward going on to suggest that there are some fried. Not so much to get an injunction. Because i don't any. I would love to hear from an actual lawyer. But it doesn't seem like they're act- they're even bringing a case of any meat on it. They're just trying to throw a lot of smoke. Well michelle just said something. Professor that people say before lawyers start talking. They love to hear from us. Give it a couple of minutes and we'll see if that lasts but we turn the question to you. Anything can change but at this hour tonight. Do you see the kind of claims that could go to the supreme court reversed the state's outcome or not absolutely not. I don't see that as you know and exactly michelle would do well in law school. You've got to have a claim and they don't have a claim And you could tell that by the types of lawsuits that they're bringing and by the reaction of the courts with respect to the losses so if they had a claim if there was a legal problem constitutional violation of violation of state law. Then it would be a different story. But they don't have illegal claim and really the purpose of the lawsuit is the setup politics and those things are going hand not in fact because there is a violation of law that is at issue. Well that means extra coming from you professor because others made sense that we may smell it but we may not fully know right. You're walking us through the fact that and you call these things on a nonpartisan basis. Whether there's a real case or controversy or not michelle. There are many democrats who have felt that in the past candidates have not stepped up early and strong these situations. I wanna get your views on the way. Joe biden hit. This was just within the last few hours. Take a listen. Power can't be taken or certain it flows from the people now every vote must be counted. No one's going to take our democracy away from us not now not ever we. The people will not be silenced. We the people will not be bullied. Michelle i think at this point it is but they obviously have the lawyers ready and you know people are out people. I think are already starting to go out and organize and show up on the streets. But there isn't really this goes back to i think the illusory nature of the charges that trump is the trump is making. There's not even really something to organize against. I mean you saw this mob of people in michigan shouting stop. The votes stopped the count. Which is a sort of know. Farcical retread of brooks brothers riot. Except for the fact that joe biden head in the count there right so there is not even so what exactly. What defenders of joe. Biden's you besides say you know. These people are disturbing the peace. I think that there's not even a meaningful controversy at this point. I guess is what i'm trying to say. There's not a meaningful controversy for joe biden supporters of joe biden to get on the other side michelle. Maybe it's because i've been pulled in different directions today but you just pointed out something. I hadn't fully digested. Which is that chanting. Stop the count. When you're person is down makes no sense like you didn't even get the sign and then chant right notwithstanding the deeper issues. I wanna thank michelle professor charles coming up after the break we have special fact check on something that could be a big deal no matter what happens. Because this recount explained can still go forward and wisconsin. But what are the real numbers. What do you need to know. Particularly people are talking to you about. Why am i change. We have with experts when we come back. I'm laura beale and in my podcast. Dr death we dug into the story of dr dench and the system failure that allowed him to maim and kill patients in texas. Since dr death came out. I've received hundreds of tips about doctors who've abused their patients. I still get a few every week but story in particular has kept coming in over and over again far more than any other. It's a story about a doctor who sacrificed his patients health for personal profit. A doctor who had over five hundred victims before being stopped by the fbi a doctor who deserves the nickname given to him by his victims. Dr death subscribe to dr death season. Two on apple podcasts wondering field story. We've done the big board. We've been the votes. We've been the experts. Now we turn to our legal breakdown tonight. Donald trump already seeking legal interventions in several states before these final counselor in. So let's go right through the facts and the law. We're seeing new suits or moves by. Donald trump in wisconsin michigan pennsylvania where already has rejected one new trump lawsuit other measures though may proceed like this wisconsin recount. But here's what we know. From past cases these moves rarely flip. Who wins state unless the margins are well under a thousand votes so just doing the math. I want you to keep that number in mind. One thousand as you look at some emerging margins michigan with ninety seven percent in is too early. Excuse me is what you see here. Sixteen electoral votes ninety seven percent in trump's father lawsuit to stop the vote counting or take wisconsin the apparent winner ninety nine percent of the votes in the margin twenty thousand votes. Now let me be very clear on the one hand. Those are not some huge landslide. They look like tight margins but precedent shows they are not tight enough to be reversed in a recount with all the recount. Talk and wisconsin. Let's look at just a recent example from that same state twenty sixteen there was a recount and showed trump defeating clinton and that recount only shifted a hundred and thirty one votes. That's why wisconsin republicans are skeptical tonight of what donald trump wants to do another similar situation in the same state. Wisconsin supreme court race twenty eleven the challenger a recount after losing by about seven thousand votes. Now how many changed three hundred and twelve now cases where the recount did change the outcome. It can happen. If you remember al franken's two thousand and eight race. He was initially trailing by just two hundred fifteen votes on election night. That did move is the recon proceeded. Franken ended up winning by about three hundred votes again. Remember what i said at the top under one thousand maybe over one thousand basically never these are examples that just hinge on a few hundred votes. The trump campaign is bringing legal challenges in states where the margin is well over ten thousand votes that means for a recount to make a difference and not just take time it would have to be a precedent setting event changing thousands and thousands and thousands of votes in a way we have at least as far as history is concerned. Never seen before. This is important math for the fights coming up. We want to bring in our math political experts. Rachel bychkov is the editor of the cycle of political analysis website and senior advisor to the famous lincoln project. She's been crunching numbers. All year and shake home in duri- has worked for the obama and clinton campaigns and advised democratic candidates. On exactly these kinds of questions of st martins. Good to see you both thank you. Thanks sorry shea. If you don't follow this in and out like the to you one could see how it millions of votes cast ten thousand. Five thousand sounds close. What do you see as relevant in wisconsin. If past recounts only moved a couple of hundred votes and trump trails by twenty thousand. Why toot specific things. One is the nature of the margin. That joe by by president joe biden hats which is a fairly significant and unlikely to be overturned in a recount. Now historically only eleven percent of all recounts have actually flipped the whoever the winner was virtually all of them were within four zero one percent of the result the best example being the two thousand. Four washington governor's race between rossi and christine. Gregoire where that did. It actually flip. It was within zero percent Joe biden as well out of that rage. The second thing i will say is a psychological factor that is in joe biden's favor which is the fact is he is going into these four challenges with a positive vote. Tally us ahead on votes. If you remember the two thousand recap al gore never was actually ahead of george w bush in those court challenges. It's psychological because judges are very unlikely to want to be the ones that overturn an actual election winner. The are much more comfortable. Maintaining the status quo that voters have established. I think that's a great point. And it's one of those points that lawyers necessarily say because they talk about standing or motions. You're talking about emotions. And whether a judge wants to be the one to come and say well i see you're up by thousands. I'm gonna make some moves and changes. And now i'm gonna flip the result and that's hard to do practically rachel round. Now's the now's the time in two thousand twenty where i ask you. What giuliani said. Sorry but here's what he said. Today clogged california. The moment excitement all the polls how many votes. You have to be ahead to win for republican to win here. How many votes we have to head. Four hundred thousand not enough with eighty plus percent. He's doing his own math in pa and he's part of the legal team that's advising donald trump to do this math in wisconsin. A fact check for us last night in that speech that just horrendously terrible speech. Trump gave he simultaneously argued. The you know in wisconsin in the margins were not big enough for biden to catch up but in nevada and in arizona. The exact same sized margins were of course large enough for him to catch up to end the you know. So it's it's really funny. How mathworks like that years. What i will say. It's really important for people to understand. The conventional way that courts operated on. Not sure are going to be good. Guide points for us. We're really in a completely new an unprecedented territory in terms of what's going on with the trump campaign and they're not alone there being supported completely by the republican national committee. By you know. Apparently the entire republican party and the goal was count isn't necessarily to win the recount. It's to add some time onto a calendar that will get them closer to december fourteenth to potentially missing the date of certification. So that they could potentially try to see an alternative electoral college delegation. It's just very very important for us to be freight and understand that. What's going on here with. The trump campaign is a belief that they should and could and have every right to pursue any means possible to maintain the presidency regardless of the wheel of popular votes. Says your warning about abusing the prizes in bad faith to then try to steal the state electors fair warning briefly. I want to show what scott walker republican adviser to. Mike pence says today he tells everyone remember that two thousand eleven wisconsin recount which i mentioned after that one in two thousand sixteen numbers only went up by one thirty one. He says twenty k. a high hurdle check. Yeah it looks to me like scott walker throwing the towel and if adding it's very telling scott walker a man with political ambitions. He definitely is thinking beyond twenty twenty. You might be thinking at another in wisconsin presidency and he doesn't want to be associated with losing effort a losing effort by the way that rudolph giuliani seems very happy to associate himself with. Because that's the only thing that would associated himself with is a losing effort. I mean you think about all the republican lawyers in the united states of america. That could have gone out there on. Behalf of donald trump. The idea that you'd have rudolph giuliani. I mean i have expected software. Were at to run out there and the satire of a competent legal operation because it most certainly was not And i do think if you're a republican and you're rooting for donald trump Beyond the actual vote tallies the fact that your legal team is being headed by rudy. Giuliani should tell you that you know it's over you know it's tell you it's a fair point and both of you have given us a context and warning on the precedents rachel. Bychkov shake omen. Thank you. I'm ari melber signing off this broadcast. I'll be back at six. Pm eastern tomorrow.