20 Episode results for "Hassen"
AP One Minute Headlines Feb 20 2019 19:00 (EST)
"Now's the time to discover why Irish motorists of made high undying are Lund's bestselling car brand in January twenty nineteen the high on Tucson is Ireland's best selling car. The I ten is islands bestselling school city car. The Kona is Ireland's bestselling compact as you the and the Conan electric is now Arlyn's bestselling electric car. Visit high end dot e to find out more Hyon die. Discover why. Trump and Muller. I'm Tim Maguire the AP newsmen the President Trump was asked by reporters. Especial console rubber militia report his findings while Trump is out of the country for his summit with Kim Jong Hoon next week. That'll be totally up to the new attorney general. He's tremendous man tremendous. Person who really respects this country. I Chicago police spokesman says detectives suspect that empire actor jussie smollet filed a false police report when he said he was attacked by two men who hurled racist and anti gay slurs and loop the rope around his neck investigators and two brothers from Nigeria. I accused of the attack and then released have gone before grand jury. Prosecutors say Coast Guard Lieutenant had fifteen guns one thousand rounds of ammunition and a hit list of prominent Democrats prosecutors and people in the media Christopher fall Hassen was arrested by federal agents last week. He faces weapons and drug charges when he appears in federal court in Maryland tomorrow, I'm Tim Maguire.
AP One Minute Headlines Feb 20 2019 21:00 (EST)
"Slide daily with Qatar Airways from Dublin and embark on an unforgettable journey to one of more than one hundred and sixty destinations worldwide, including Perth Capetown, Singapore and the Maldives via Doha book now at Qatar Airways dot com, Qatar Airways going places together. Actor charged. I'm Tim Maguire for the AP news minute empire. Actor jussie smollet is charged with making a false police report when he said he was attacked in downtown Chicago by two men who hurled racist and anti gay slurs. Loop of rope around his neck, please say they're trying to get into touch with small. It's turn east and negotiate a reasonable surrender. Federal prosecutors say Coast Guard Lieutenant who works in Washington had compiled a hit list of prominent Democrats and media figures plus fifteen guns in one thousand rounds of ammunition. Christopher Paul Hassen is due to appear in a federal court in Maryland tomorrow striking public school teachers in West Virginia and their two day strike after state house members failed to act on an education Bill opposed by the teachers unions in Oakland walkout his plan. For tomorrow demanding a twelve percent pay race smaller class sizes more counselors in school, nurses, union. President Kenneth Braun art teachers need a living wage. I'm Tim Maguire.
Testing the Election
"Support for this podcast comes from dropbox business teamwork your way I was struggling to balance my professional life and making my son something healthy in my personal life, and then I, realized my team and I can fix this. Sure. We're all pretty different with different working styles. But that only makes us more productive I work early in slides while Biz Dev, assigns tasks and legal works late in hello sign all from one shared dropbox workspace try dropbox for your team at dropbox dot com slash teams at work. It would be best for the country. To have. President trump. Making. Incomplete recovery. And the selection go forward. Final segment. Election Integrity. Again is the white supremacy coursing group this lately to massive voter fraud and they're gonNA steal the election. This is going to be fraud like you've never seen vote vote vote. Hi and welcome back to amicus. This is slate podcast about the law, the courts, the rule of law, the Supreme Court I'm dial quick I write about many of those things and I'm a senior editor at sleep. So we decided to pop up with this off week episode we taped it. All the way on Thursday. After the debate and the episode is about the election it was going to update our analysis with Rick Hassen of UC Irvine you'll remember he was my co conspirator on election meltdown series that we brought to you back in January and February of two thousand twenty that series was based in large part on Rick's book election meltdown, and after Tuesday's disastrous presidential debate when it became. Clearer than ever that, Donald Trump was going to have this closing argument to the American people that the entire election is a sham and he's running against it. We decided to call on Rick, and on Professor Carol Anderson of Emory, university to kind of get the band back together. Again, Carol, you may recall join us for one of the most clarifying conversations we had on the election meltdown series and she brought that same clarity and wisdom and just vast sweeping historical context to the conversation again, this week and then in the early hours of Friday morning, Donald. Trump. Confirmed on twitter that he and the first lady had tested positive for the coronavirus. We're GONNA, stop and wish them both good health. NBC is also reporting that Joe Biden his tested negative although that can obviously change in the coming days. Judge Amy Coney Barrett has reportedly tested negative but she met with Senator, Mike Lee this week, and he is now positive for corona virus. This is all contact tracing meet life on Capitol Hill. There are a lot of implications to everything that has happened and they raise a lot of legal questions but today right now with a months to go before election day millions of Americans are already voting and they have questions about what all of these new developments may mean for the election itself. So in a few moments, we will turn to the wonderful conversation that we taped on Thursday about the facts of the election and challenges to ballots. None of that changed. But first we thought we take an opportunity to have a quick update with Rick Hassen about the things that have changed since Donald Trump has announced that he is covert positive. Rick has just posted about this in slate dot com so I would urge you to read his pieces well, but rick welcome back to be back with you. Rake. What does the law say about? What happens if a candidate is incapacitated or worse and voting has already begun? Please right so we are in. kind of a echo because the. If this had happened a month ago. And it was serious enough I should start by saying I wish the president and the first lady and everyone who suffered from the terrible disease of full and complete recovery but we do have to talk about the political implications of all of this. And so if this happened a month ago, they would have just replaced trump's name on the ballot you know if he was incapacitated or passed away. And boating would go on if this happened after voting took place while there's all kinds of rules in terms of dealing with the electric electoral, College. This situation now we've have had over two million people cast ballots. Ballots are printed unless Congress were to take the unprecedented step of passing a law that delays the election something. I don't expect to happen what we will instead see is. Trump's name would remain on the ballot even if he withdraws or or is and can't continue as the candidate. And then it becomes a question of what to the electors do. This that we vote for electors rather than voting for the presidential candidate directly. What does the Republican Party do? That would be in a position to take replacement nominee what does congress do and what do the courts do and I spell it all out in the slight piece. But the bottom line is that there are no certain answers here if there's a biden victory. It's a resounding victory. I think these problems pretty much go away unless we see legislatures. Do something really. Funky and trying to take away the power of the voters to electrically. But if there are lots of votes for trump, then it becomes really murky as to what happens, and ultimately it probably comes down to Congress and could even come down to that weird provision in the constitution that says that if nobody gets a majority in Electro College, every house delegation that is each state gets one vote in the House of Representatives she's an ex-president. So President Romney I guess I WANNA know if this increases the probabilities of an election that is not in fact decided by the voters or is the answer we just don't know well, I think you can imagine cross cutting things first of all Biden as of right now, the polling shows he's in the lead he could have a a larger lead because people might not want to vote for a candidate who is sick Maybe maybe trump does better because he gets a sympathy vote I mean I don I don't know electorally how that plays but I think it does raise these questions about not just the kind of rogue activities of state legislatures but also raises the issue of disinformation imagine a false information and this is one of the things I think Danielle mentioned where we had our live event in Washington DC with where we had our rug of despair out in front of us that we all enjoyed. commiserating about is what if there's false information saying a candidate has died. They. Would see much more plausible. You know. And that could affect voting disinformation. Claims of a cover up all kinds of conspiracy theories. So I really worry about domestic and foreign actors engaging in the kinds of dirty tricks. We talked about in connection with this election that I thought couldn't get any crazier but in fact is just you know off the rails writer's room. Go and you're drunk go to sleep. Come back tomorrow. Can we get thirty seconds rick on the goings on in Texas Since. We taped on Thursday because it seems like maybe having I don't know a population. Of millions of voters who only have one dropbox would be a form of vote suppression that you've been warning us about for years. We'll just before we taped, I posted a complaint that has been filed by lack in the League of voter saying, Hey, you know governor Abbot you said in a recent filing in another case, you don't want confusion changing rules just before the election why you closing? Thirteen or fourteen dropbox dropping off absentee ballots. Yes. Of course, it's depression when a party is trying to make it harder for people to vote when they're afraid of voting. I mean I think that just tells you. They don't want to have a contest where people can cast their ballots and there's there's just no plausible reason to juice. We know that draw up boxes are secure they're used in lots of places they're Kinda bomb-proof. These things are made. They're not just like a regular post office back. Talk about security this is not an issue of security. This is an issue of we don't want to make it easy for people to about now, the good news in Texas is so people can vote by mail because the states already got such terrible record and Mitch refused to expand by the other one of the five states that. Five or six states that have not expanded vote by mail during the pandemic. So maybe this doesn't have a huge effect, but it sure looks pretty bad for Governor Abbott and we're GONNA turn now to the conversation as promised with recasting Carol Anderson but I would just ask you what are you gonNa Watch four in the next couple of days to figure out whether you're leaning into being a little more saying or a little bit more freaked out because wherever you lean I will follow it would be best for the country. To have. President trump. Make A. Complete recovery. And this election go forward. Certainly, the campaigns are going to be I don't know if pence and Harris for example next week. If they're going to debate in person I, mean all kinds of questions about that or I don't know what's going to happen with the Supreme Court nomination. If. That was a super spreader event at the at the announcements and. I. And I don't know how that affects the presidential election. So I mean there are a lot of political unknowns but if you're talking about legally I, think the cleanest thing is for the president to make a complete recovery for the election to go forward and for us to just watch and see and hope. On. Say The election administrators prayer Lord but this election not be close and just let the people decide. Thanks wreck. Thank you. And because this is a special extra off week episode of the podcast slate plus listeners are not going to be getting their coveted visit behind the VIP velvet rope. That segment where Marc Joseph Stern and I weighed into the issues that may not have made it into the main show. But I promise mark will be back next week and you can be sure that we will be talking about the Arizona case, the Supreme Court. Agreed to take up that has serious implications for what is left of the voting rights. act. In the meantime you might WanNa make sure your slate plus members. So you don't miss that sleep plus members get access to bonus content from a whole bunch of sleet shows. They also get ad free access to all of our shows and sleep plus members support the vital work that we do here at slate. Now more than ever. You can find details and join US AT SLATE DOT com slash amicus plus and we thank you for supporting our work and now as promised our conversation with Rick Hassen and Carol Anderson on this still urgent question of Donald Trump and his ability to challenge quote all the ballots. Thus invalidating in the courts, the results of the two thousand election. Recap Zain teaches elections law at UC Irvine. Carol Anderson is the Charles Howard candler professor of African American Studies. At emory university her research focuses on public policy with regard to race justice, and equality. Welcome to you both. Thank you for having US and risk starting with you. Election Meltdown was the title you chose for your book published. February fourth. That was a million years ago. What did your elections crystal ball fail to flag that has arisen since then what is melting down today more intensely than anything you even anticipated. Number, one corona virus, which even in the best of times what have made holding a successful election in the United States Challenge it's much more expensive to run elections in pandemic both in person and vote by mail, and you know one one of the early things we talked about in our series was pockets of election administrator incompetence while we're full of pockets now because to ramp up the scale of mail in. Balloting is just really really tough to do in the best of circumstances. It takes years to roll it out and you know we had voters in. New York, who were just enfranchised because they closed their belt with a piece of scotch tape because they weren't educated that a piece of Scotch tape would disenfranchise you I mean, that's the kind of thing we're talking about. The other thing that's changed is that as a donald trump. Has Been Flailing in the polls he's been ramping up his attacks on voting. Remember this is a guy who claimed there was massive voter fraud in the election. He won back in two thousand sixteen when he said that three to five million non-citizens vote in the election all for his opponent Hillary Clinton somehow erasing the popular vote loss that he had I mean just ridiculous unsupported statements but now much of it is. Targeted at. The. Use of mail in balloting, but it's not only that he's talking about sinning poll-watchers to places. We talked about this in two thousand, sixteen thing go watch them and you know when when he says that in a debate at the same time, he's talking about the proud boys standing by it's very worrisome and where he won't commit to a peaceful transition of power I mean I think we're still in a situation where the elections going to have to be very close for any of this to matter but you know in terms of the. statements that trump is making that. undermine democratic elections in the rule of law I think we're kind of off the charts is hard to imagine any US presidential candidate or president from major political party making the kinds of incendiary unsupported statements undermining our election process like trump. Cal Trump has never really been about democracy and that's one of the fundamental foundational pieces we need to understand. And we see that in terms of the way that he kneecapped the post office. Knowing, that mail in ballots would be absolutely crucial in the midst of pandemic so that people did not have to choose between the right to vote and the right to health the right to be safe and. Mail in ballots were to do that because what then would also do is that in this historic election? It would reduce the number of people who are going to the polls on election day. So you could get something close to social distancing if you have adequate mail in ballots. happening. So and he bragged about it about withholding funding from the post office because then that way they won't be able to process all those mail in ballots. You see with Louis de joy who who went in and gave the order as postmaster general to dismantle sorting machines, and so the moment you start dismantling they sorting machines and you see where they the cities where they have removed the over six, hundred, seventy of these machines you begin to see that in some way to create a massive administrative back lock, and then you add to that the the judge who release the RNC from that consent decree on poll-watchers and then. You add to that the incendiary of key fusible basically. To save that white supremacist are bad I. Mean. So you're mixing all of this together and what you have the toxic stew. I have said it before now getting ready to mix metaphors. With trump does is that he puts a kilo of pure uncut white supremacy on the table. and. He has his minions just snorted up in an powers that it makes them feel strong. It makes them feel invincible while everything around him is being destroyed because that's what happens with attics. And in the more that he gets in trouble the more kilos he puts on the table, and so we have got to be prepared for this We have got to know that the RNC is also. Challenging in the court states that are trying to put a drop boxes more drop boxes for the mail in ballots. You see these states trying to figure out how do we conduct this massive election in the midst of a pandemic in not give our folks killed. When you have some states, you have other states are like, yeah. Go out there. Yeah. If you really want an absentee ballot. Go get a notary. You'll get a couple of witnesses to yeah heck with that social distancing thing. So you've got this very. Bifurcated system happening here in the United States those who care about elections and they're trying to figure out how to holded. pan-demic that trump let run wild. And those were like. Echoing Paul Weinrich. The CO founder of the Heritage Foundation. I don't want everybody to vote. Because frankly. Are, leveraged goes up as the voting populace goes down. And that's what we're see as the election strategy coming out of trump and the Republicans. So Rick Can I, ask you a point of information because from the beginning Donald trump has drawn some kind of distinction between absentee ballots mail in balloting solicited mail in balloting unsolicited mail in balloting. He seems to be saying I want you to vote they vote in Florida but not like they vote in also other states that vote exactly like Florida, can you please to the extent that you can clarify? And I know it's it's a fool's errand. I'm sending you on because I don't think there is in fact an immutable line about what he accepts in dozen but can you to the best of your abilities explain to me? What is the thing that he says other than I guess we can't count any votes that come in after November third but what kind of mail in ballots he is objecting to? It objecting to bow mandolin bells that are sent in by speaking don't vote for him. So you know this, there are debates the in terms of. Just terminology wh when you call something a male in Ballard absentee ballot. But I think we can say they're they're just a few systems number one everyone's mailed a ballot there five states that do that and conduct their elections all by mail. There are four states that are joining them this time around only including California. which is a state that is already sixty seventy percent absentee balloting. So. So one system is everybody's mailed about it, and that seems to be what he complains about. The most he's climbing these ballots will be floating out there and they'll be. Stolen or in a ditch she said or voted by somebody else or The mailman sell it. I mean the one of the craziest things subject to fraud a foreign countries, gonNA, manufacture thousands of these ballots you know they you know to be able to do that on a scale we can get into the details, but it's basically impossible. Then, there are places where you can vote by mail without an excuse. That includes Florida that includes now Pennsylvania, and Michigan those states that used to not have no excuse absentee balloting. For covert, they decided to switch over. And they're all kinds of concerns about them being able to count them but that's a different question. And and then there are places where you have to have an excuse and in this election I think we're down to five or six places most the largest being Texas where you can't vote by mail over a certain age or have an excuse me when by the Supreme Court to try and get that knocked out and has. Trump suggests that the problem is the places where the ballots were sent automatically unsolicited but we don't when he criticizes were mail in balloting is taking place his criticisms could apply to any state and you know. Florida does a pretty good job in terms of quickly counting absentee ballots. The other states are GonNa take a long time. He's complained about the amount of time it might take to get results you know and I think that presents the very dangerous parade where trump might try to prematurely declare himself the winner if he's ahead and the the early counting the in person counting as his supporters don't use vote by mail as much but I, you know it's really Trying to make sense of what Donald Trump is saying about any topic is challenging trying to make sense in this. It just makes no sense because now with trump and his. Allies not only do they regularly vote by mail. They're out there I have a friend in Georgia who got four absentee ballot Notices from the trump campaign. Hey, you should apply for balanced time to vote. They're really pushing up see balloting heart among their own supporters. And and you know and I've got to say I somehow I ended up on the some the National Republican, Committee something, other list and Says we hear you're one of our staunchest supporters and we really need you because the Democrats are going to try to steal this election with mail in ballots in. So this is the message that's going out there, and what is designed to do is to create confusion. It is designed to to cast a air of illegitimacy on this on the election results in. This is why we also hear a trump say. That you know he's GonNa win the election on election day, and then the Democrats are gonNA steal it with mail in ballots because of the time than it takes to count those ballots and so that that time between when the networks love to do their horse racing, you know thirty seven percent of the vote in we're GONNA call this data so he's counting on VAT. And because many states have a rule that you can't start counting the mail in ballots until election day that means that the timeframe particularly with the exponential growth in the use of melon ballots for this pandemic election, it just means it's going to take more time to count all the votes and again remember Paul. Wirat, at a want everybody to vote are leveraged goes up as the voting populace goes down. So if you can narrow who you're counting whose votes you're counting. That is about power. It's not about democracy. And Carol I think it's really important. For, you to point out the thing you pointed out last time. The thing I know you've been pointing out for a long time, which is that it is quite enough in poor communities in minority communities certainly in the black community that has fought tooth and nail even to get to this place that it is often enough to just depress confidence I mean sending people out. To quote Unquote poll-watchers. As Rick says, you know when you said that consent decree from Nineteen eighty-one is gone. That's its own thing to terrorise minority in vulnerable communities but I think your point is deeper and it's really worth pulling on sending out the message that your vote is not going to count. So don't even bother that's a very story tradition in this country is well. A key element of voter suppression is voter depression. So we have the suppressive techniques voter ID. Whole closures massive voter purges, eliminating early voting days. All of those things that just make voting harder. But what it begins to do when you begin to see these five, our lines in the research is clear on this. It is designed to make folks up is just much and the word goes out into the community and the voter turnout goes down. But also what we know is that confusion and a sense that the whole system is rigged and my vote won't count and it doesn't matter what I to all of that is targeted. At key communities to again lower the voter turnout rate and going to sound like a broken record here because frankly are leveraged goes up as the voting populace goes down. If we understand that that's the frame. Than all of this craziness, all of this mess, all of these lies that get spewed out there on a consistent stream. Begin to make sense and Carol I. Think It's worth drawing attention to the fact that it's not just about terrorizing. Black communities and Latino communities in poor communities in their polling places it doesn't have to be armed poll-watchers. There's also a long illustrious tradition in this country of just telling voters not to show up of telling them. It's futile and I just want to. Point to the UK's Channel Four News reporting this week that in two thousand, sixteen, the trump campaign targeted three and a half million black Americans with negative ads about Hillary. Clinton. Just try to keep them at home to keep them from voting and I think it matters when we say, Oh, you know voters just weren't excited about Hillary Clinton. They weren't excited about Joe Biden that if you are targeting those voters with messages, saying don't be excited they suck that too is a form of election manipulation and Rick. I want to again hesitate to do this to you. I feel like you're getting all the the garbage assignments on this week's show but I do WanNa play if I may. A little audio from Donald Trump's debate performance as far as the bouncer concerned, it's a disaster. This is the plan right? All Mail in ballots are going to be hopelessly tainted. We've talked about that. This is going to be a fraud like you've never seen. Democrats want this count to go on for months and years, and there's going to be no resolution. We won't know we might not know for months because these ballots are going to be all over as Carol noted, Democrats are going to cheat they cheat. Hey, they found ballots in a wastepaper basket three days ago. So pull watchers are going to need to watch him carefully. My supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully and as we just discussed, this whole project is essentially futile. So why bother it's a fraud and it's a shame is in front to rig. That's it seems to me those are the components, right pollute the water. So doubt so confusion depress voters. From having any confidence, that's the totality of the playbook, right? I. Think we've got it there in in in four elegant points. So yes, I think that certainly the idea is to scare people away from voting in person and by mail and cast doubts over the legitimacy of the election if trump doesn't win. What end I think is what we have to ask there's the benign story which is not benign and the scary story. The one that caused me to write that's like saying we have a five alarm fire. The benign explanation is trump knows is likely to lose. He's reading the polls like everyone else doesn't look good for him, and so he's trying to have an excuse for explaining why he lost. You know fake news against him. They put in that fake story about his taxes and the election was stolen by Democrats and then he goes off start strong. TV starts his government in exile. Whatever it is does I don't think he goes quietly, but he he goes away. The less benign potential here happens only if we have a close enough election that comes down to a state or two in the Electoral College, and in those states, there's something that could be pointed to as evidence of fraud or chaos that could lead to someone other than voters being the ultimate deciders of who gets those electoral college votes from that state. There are three actors besides the voters who might have say here, number one Republican legislatures trying to exercise their powers to choose presidential electors in the event that no choice has been made and we get into the details. Of How that might work number to the Supreme Court you know in the place I need a Justice Barrett on the court to be my deciding vote really shows you have confidence in your election outcome when you're hanging on the courts to hand you the election and number three Republicans in the Senate trying to not accept a certain electoral college votes and that leading to some kind of political fight. So I think the idea is that all of this meant to discourage voting if it doesn't work to discourage voting, but it makes it close enough. Then there are lawsuits and. Political maneuvers that are possible try to take this election away from the voters themselves, and that's some of the Bar Galman Atlantic piece last week that got everybody very alarmed and I I think I did want to ask both of you know it was a it was a really interesting, well reported piece. But in some sense, he was picking on this one thread Rick, which is you know the state republican-controlled state legislators are going to pick the electors and that's one of a hundred things that could happen if you don't believe that you should be constrained by law. Story was it was a well reported story, but he put too much emphasis on that one possibility. and. It's I think it's very unlikely. I mean imagine what would happen to the Republican legislators who take the vote away from the people after the people who voted I think they would face a huge political backlash and that would be so de-legitimizing it would be huge risk to do that, and if trump has nothing to stand on. That's not going to happen if it's very close than it is possible. We've already seen moves by the Pennsylvania House to try to establish a a commission with subpoena power to be able to go after election investigating. But that's just one possibility of the way things can go and this litigation is another possibility. There's case pending now before the US Supreme Court petition challenging something the Pennsylvania Supreme Court did and we should have a sense I'd say within the next week or so as to where the supreme. Court stands on these issues about the question of legislative power. We'll be right back. At slate, we believe it's more important than ever to stay connected with you. Dear, listener. and. That's why they live is in fully since the beginning of the pandemic and we're going to be here for the long haul to make social distancing just a little bit more bearable. Wednesday night live is our main stage where each week we shine the spotlight on one of our most popular podcast like the political gabfest sleep money, the prudence working and more, and of course, there's our newest shows the kids are asleep. It's grownups only chat show hosted by MOM and dad are fighting host Jimmy Lulu, a Wa. Every Thursday night you tune in for some real talk about the ups and downs of modern life and parenting with special guest like with junior and Marc Lamont Hill. and. All of these great shows are strained on slates youtube and facebook pages or you can go to slate dot com slash live with a full lineup and links that slate dot com backslash live. And now let's return to our conversation with UC Irvine. Professor. Rick has him and Professor Carol Anderson of Emory University. Carol. I. I don't WanNa leave this issue of poll-watchers intimidation without asking you. Because, it's a separate you mentioned the consent decree. Now, that is not operative. We have an election in which I guess. It's Calvin. Bowl there's no rules. and I wonder if you can just give us a little bit of context going back about what it means when one side is told, and this is again, we think this started in the eighties, this did not start in eighties. We this started in the sixties. This did not can you walk us through just the historic move that it takes to say the other side is. All. In on cheating, it is on you as individuals to suit up and quote unquote. Watch. The polls. This goes back to reconstruction. In when the reconstruction act of eighteen sixty seven provided the right to vote for black men. The response was enormous incredible violence at the polls to stop black men from voting it the it was the way to send the signal it was. Terrorism. The domestic terrorism that will so intense that it led to belong dealing with trying to take hold of the KKK and to break the KKK from killing black people for voting. This continues to go through through the rise of Jim Crow. We have entire towns white out because somebody decided to vote a black person decided to vote. We have World War Two veterans killed. Because, they cast a ballot, the the use of physical violence domestic terrorism. To camp down to dissuade to block African Americans from voting is as American is. Slavery. But if one of the things that that also joins this thing that I think we ought to to note is that what the Republicans did in New Jersey that led to the consent decree was to hire cops. To be poll-watchers. Now, we already know of the tense relationship between the black community. and Law enforcement, and so when you put cops at the polls. You are sending a powerful nasty signal and for this consent decree to now be lifted. In the midst of a regime that says that you know Nazis a very fine people in the midst of a regime where we have had a rise in hate crimes in the midst of origene where it's racism is palpable I've said before all trump had he was not a successful businessman and frankly the new report. Coming in on his taxes really lays that out who so if you six bankruptcies weren't enough. A detail now successful businessman had no governing policy experience. What he did have was birtherism. He made his political mark on racism. And you see thin in the ways that he talked about remember Nick Twenty Sixteen election when he was down in Pennsylvania and he was encouraging his followers to go up the Philadelphia in watch the polls to make sure they're not going to steal the election. This again is the white supremacy coursing through. Language of massive voter fraud going to steal the election. That's who trump is an that unfortunately has been embraced by the silence in by the acquiescence of the Republican Party. And Rick It's worth noting just as a purely. Matter that consent decree bound the Republican Party Not Donald Trump. Right, and if you go back and you look at the reason why the judge let this consent decree finally expire it's been in effect since nineteen eighty two and it's been expanded and continued because of continued actions of the aren't seeing people working with the. The judge said, well, the RNC wasn't involved in any of the stuff and the case went up to the third circuit on appeal. In the third circuit affirmed and said, yeah, the consent decree should go away. They dropped a footnote saying yet donald trump engaged in a lot of voter suppression in two thousand sixteen but he's not the RNC. But today he is the RNC. Taken over the RNC have to say I'm. I'm somewhat less worried about the NC sending poll-watchers. I mean there's been these bluffs I. Don't know if you remember remember this back in two thousand and four Republicans threatened to send thirty five thousand poll-watchers to public places in Ohio to democratic. Areas in Ohio and Democrats tried to block it, and the case went all the way to the Supreme Court and Justice, Stevens, at about three o'clock in the Morning just before the polls were gonNA open issued an opinion I'm I'm not going to enjoy this, but everybody should behave and no poll-watchers showed up. The whole thing was a bluff to try to scare people away and much more worried about the proud boys and others taking matters into their own hands. The kind of freelancing that can take place. The kind of voter intimidation acts of rogue people or groups. because. That's what trump was inviting in the debate I think that the main reason he asked for poetry to sign up for the so-called Army for trump on websites is to collect signatures. So they can spam their people more with election adds to get more money out of them. I think that's the game and that's a hopeful story, right? It's only a con. An effort to organize. Massive voter intimidation activities. Okay. So I'm thinking of a takeoff on share on that one. Trip sent the. It's only con that could be like the title of the last four years. Now you think it's malevolent. It's just a phone I've heard a lot of people. Who Follow? Trump's say things like you know he doesn't really mean it when he says he's not accept a peaceful transition of power that's just trump being traum. The point is no one none of us can get in his head, but we know what he says you know market applaud the Maya angelou quote that everybody pulls out but what I am going to say is The messages are received by people as messages of suppressing the whether that's his intention or not go ahead. Carol. And you think about those messages, the man in the trump van mobile who sent the pipe bombs to the enemies of trump right CNN the Clintons, I mean just You think about the shooter in El Paso who has a trump manifesto about the invasion because he's he's hearing the language. Coming out of trump's mouth about this invasion disturbing over America he's going to stop it right and the fact that the proud boys changed their imb blips to reflect what trump said during the debate you know stand by it tells you they're hearing them because what he needs and I no doubt. You've heard the safest before you know he needs the violence he needs the chaos he is an abuser. He's got these multiple pieces, but he is an abusive and and and and that abusive behavior is to wear you down it is to make you doubt yourself to make you doubt your your instincts to whittle away at your confidence to break you down to your nothing. But what he says you are. When you stand off is a no son you gotta get out of my? House. That moment when he realizes that you are done. That's when the abusers become the most dangerous. And that's where the moment that we're entering now the but what we also know from these abusers. Is that if you capitulate if you stay. You may not survive. You get him out of your house. You like Tina, Turner I, his going to be good. So this is where we are in this election. We are kicking this abuser out of our house I think that the. Voter turnout rates that we saw in the primaries. Are Indication I think that the record you know then the two, thousand, eighteen midterms, which was a referendum on trump where we had the highest voter turnout since nineteen fourteen. Wow where he's never done above fifty percent approval rating all of that is saying to him. Son You not a house and all of that is leading him to. To leading this pandemic, really run wild. With Kushner's like, Oh that was those democratic states. We can just let it go. It's telling you so much about. The depth of the malevolent S-. That this regime is willing to rain down on the American people. In order to stay in the White House. I've heard people say I will crawl through broken glass. When you think about the ruling in Wisconsin where the Supreme Court on April six. is saying you've got to have your email, your absentee ballot postmarked. By Election Day April seventh in order for it to count. And tens of thousands of those ballots had not yet even been received. Its people just stood in line. They were willing to face a corona virus firing squad. To. CAST their ballots. In so as much to seize, debasing, and degrading and threatening. My hope still lives in the people. I'm seeing a people hungry for democracy of people who heard that debate heard that mess coming through out of trump and were just appalled. And know that we can't go on like this and that's what we're seeing with with the lawsuits say let people vote I mean this is where we are right now. I have so many things I want to say, Carol, but chief among them is thank you I I said to you before we even started I often replay your little five minutes from election meltdown when I'm losing heart and you're like this is how black people have voted forever you get on the line you have your battery pack have a snack and I listened to that. More than is healthy probably but I love I love what you're saying and I would just note that is essentially what Joe Biden said in my view in the last few minutes of the debate show up and vote you will determine the outcome of this election vote vote vote it's GonNa? Be Hard coves changed it someone might challenge it. It's not GonNa go easy I heard him saying what you said which is vote the way black people have been largely voting in this country for most of their lives it's just not easy anymore and Rick I wanNA talk about. post-election with you but I wanNA frame it this way because I, think you and I have both written about this. It matters the Justice Department is on board with this. It is a non trivial thing that the attorney general of the United States is saying the same stuff about thousands of illegal ballots in Nevada is going to be carried by fraud and we should not even you know we should start from the presumption that Nevada's cheating and it's not nothing. that. The Attorney General is on board and I asked Don on this show a few weeks ago. You tell me what it means when the machinery of the Justice Department is in with the plan to suppress votes and to throw votes and he wouldn't answer. So I'm wondering can you just talk a little bit about what is going to happen post-election and I think there's a disinformation piece I wanna hear you about but I also really WanNa hear you tell me If an how the DOJ itself steps into this mess is Carol, calls it. What does that mean when the DOJ has a thumb on the scale? Or I want say how much I Miss Jeff sessions right now. I'm not kidding I. Know isn't that something because there was an of integrity they're right. There is none in Ohi- testified before jeff sessions about the voting rights act. We're not on the same page but I do think he is was a fundamentally decent person and the sense I get from bill bar is that he will say or do anything to protect this president to protect the imperial presidency and you know. Going on a show and saying it's bullshitting crap to claim that trump might want to stay in office and that that's really what the leftist one in its projection and then saying that in Nevada they're magically going to find one hundred thousand ballots for Biden and then repeatedly making these claims about fraud he went on CNN in an interview and say, Hey, there was a case of seventeen hundred fraudulent ballots and. Turned out that there was. Not that case and they blamed it on a briefing error. So either, the guy is not very smart and but I think he's quite smart he's being disingenuous I think that's what's going on bill bar is not going to stand up for justice. Whether the Justice Department, itself is going to file if there's a trump versus biden that looks like Bush versus Gore. You can bet there's going to be something that bill bars GonNa file to try to support president ethnic. We've gone from the place where the department justice was sending observers down to southern states descending to Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana and letting people vote to now where one of the great impediments to Voting Rights Department of Justice. It is tragic. But what bar is doing is downright dangerous because he is trying to use the machinery of the Department of Justice to try and help a president win election when. Even though it's part of the executive branch the tradition of the Department of Justice is that it's not the president's personal arts impartial law enforcement agency there to back the rule of law and to exactly the opposite of overseeing and think about the way that the DOJ issued this report on the tossed away ballots in Pennsylvania, and as they open the they saw that those that were in the trash can were for trump I mean and this. was just such B. S. story that the folks in Pennsylvania boy wait a minute one. What is the DOJ duly, and why it even talking about who the votes were cast for, and so this looked like a PR studt to to continue to gin up the narrative of voter fraud and win the folks in Pennsylvania began to parse through this. It was a temporary employee who threw it away the machinery work the way it was supposed to. Harm no foul it got handled. But in the hands of Bill Bar, it becomes part of this nefarious scheme to undermine trump's election. That's what what's happening here it is disgusted. With Carol. Saying is really important what we are seeing in Pennsylvania both with the privacy sleeve and throwing out those ballots and the claim that massive amounts of fraud is going to happen and belts or being tossed for trump. That's all just seeding the challenge, right? That's the the Bush v Gore is just saying we're going to just keep saying this thing is happening and try to amass evidence of a thing that is not happening. That's we're building a case, but can you just talk post-election for a minute because I feel like we have this fantasy that all this gets resolved on November third or fourth? Or seventh, even in the best of times it. May Take a little bit of time. If it's a very close election I, think Pennsylvania's the play maybe Nevada's the backup play and the idea is. Why because? If is close to winning Pennsylvania's likely to be the tipping state and any has a history of lousy election ministration Pennsylvania just had a quarter of its. Election officials quit because they can't deal with. The stress in the problems but the top election officials in counties post-election. If it's really close, we're going to see massive just information campaigns both domestic and foreign sickness project Veritas a China. Put voter fraud onto representative Omar. I. Mean. It's just it's shameless and it'll just be you know the president's operatives using Pennsylvania paint a picture of massive fraud and if not win legally of a legal. Attempt it will be politically to make the case that. The election was thrown in Pennsylvania and trump really want even though the votes show that Biden has one I mean I think. That is much more of a plausible nightmare scenario than kind of some of the stuff we talked about like the Cyberattack on the power grid in Detroit which is still a possibility. You know like all the things we worried about this, these things can still happen, but you know that's the realistic worry I think that's why you heard Biden in the end in response to the peaceful transition of power say stuff like this is all about voting and his message was not worry about trump his message was. This. Clown called the McClellan will be escorted out of the Oval Office. Don't worry about that. You need to vote vote vote and I think now's the time to pivot and say the most important thing to do right now is make sure you're registered about if you're listening to this podcast may already be too late depending where you live make sure you're registered to vote vote as early as you can, and if in person voting is something that makes sense for you. Early you go ahead and do that I think your last choices voting on election. Day In person because I think that is when there may be the biggest problems. If you're voting by mail, make sure that you check that your ballot has been received in a lot of states you can track your bow out not true everywhere the more people that can bank their votes. Now, that's like an insurance policy against all of this post election mayhem that that's possible. My fervent hope is that in early twenty, twenty four will start the series again and talk about how nothing has changed. But at least we didn't lose our country in twenty twenty. Carol before we wrap I WanNa talk about something that we don't talk about nearly enough, and I certainly don't talk about nearly enough and I want to do that by way of reading to you from an anonymous letter that I got from a reader this week This is what they said. Just I've voted in every national election since nineteen ninety-two I, voted absentee from abroad. I used to be one of those people who cheerfully Warren I voted sticker. Advertising having done part voting has always been a responsibility in a privilege I took seriously this year. My vote is at risk of being lost because with all that I've been dealing with a had the wherewithal to register or to get an absentee ballot and might still be registered where I lived in two thousand sixteen I don't know I know that I don't have an absentee ballot or any way of returning to my last polling station probably ever the raiders. I wasn't always this person. Within most of my circles I try to maintain the facade of being successful professional of being a person with a permanent residents I try to maintain that facade with myself to every day I tell myself I'm GonNa go get my ballot I have to I can't not vote in this election every day I fail and then they conclude this letter by saying today it hit me that this might be a larger phenomenon. This year's equivalent of driving an old lady to the polls might be calling your friend whose life has fallen apart and holding their hand while they navigate voter registration websites and I think I just want to ask you because I assume. Somehow knowing that two hundred thousand people have died because of covid and innumerable people including people who listen to this show have lost. Their jobs are struggling with childcare are struggling to take care of parents that people just aren't where they were in two thousand sixteen and that I some of this, the drumbeat of. hoops to jump through and the paralysis around just getting through the day is overwhelming and I wonder if you would be so kind as to answer this letter writer who I should note by the way, Carol wrote back to me. Just two days ago to say. They got themselves registered. This is hard again, this is an abusive relationship. But I guess, let me put it in the in the terms of African American history. Imagine. Being enslaved. In having. Virtually. No control over your life. Your family. Your Labor. Your Body. You know and it's designed to break you so much in that system was designed to break you. Imagine. The strength that you pull upon in the midst of a system designed to break you. Where you say son, you don't know my name. And that? Vision that fight in the midst of everything that degrades debase issue you find you pull upon community pulled upon cultural power. You pull upon your spirituality. And you pull the pod hope. Hope is powerful. It is without hope. That the abusers win. It is with hope that you find the transformation in this system. Is Why we don't have chattel slavery because the enslaved refused to be enslaved. This is how Jim Crow broke. Because those who were deemed as second class citizens or or lower said son. You don't know my name. And where we are right now. We are being told that we are nothing. All those people who are out in the streets, all of those people who are phone banking, all those people who in the midst of a pandemic where we have had over seven million people contract the disease over two, hundred, thousand die. Said son you don't know my name because I have a vision of a much better America. I have a vision. Where we have. We trust the scientist in the data. That can bring this thing under control. Where all of the enormous resources of this incredible nation. Are used to empower support the People That vision where we have a real justice system. That vision is based on hope and that hope is based on work. The work that we're doing now is to reclaim this democracy. It's it can be done. It will be done. We saw that in twenty eighteen as the first step. In the the ways that we're seeing in that election in Wisconsin. Wow that move that they voted in. A democratic judge on the supreme. Court. We're seeing that with a massive voter turnout, we're seeing with people on the doors and Louisville let me in. So I can vote. Seeing the people in the five hour lines here in Atlanta. In, the midst of pandemic were Georgia's in the top ten cova die T say. A will be heard. That's what we pull upon. We pull upon that history and that strength. And we get the America we deserve we get the democracy we deserve. Rick you of anything you WANNA add. No No. I'm just GONNA. Sit here. I will just say a as last time the where Carolina find her. Tenacity and. Her was. To be a source of strength. And you know we just need to. Take a deep breath and put our heads down. Pushed through because there's no alternative to doing that if we want to keep our country as a functioning democracy. RECASTS in teaches elections, law UC Irvine Carol Anderson is the Charles Howard. Candler professor of African American Studies at Emory University. My goodness, the two of you this has been a ride. Thank you for the last conversations and for this one and take care. Thank you. Thank you for key to keeping A. Spotlight on this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And that is a wrap for this episode of Angus so much for listening and thank you so much for your letters and your questions and your notes in your thoughts you can always keep in touch at amicus at sleep dot com. You can also find us at facebook dot com slash amethyst typecast we love hearing from. Today's show was produced by Sarah Birmingham with research help from Daniel Maalouf. Gabriel Roth is our editorial director Lee. Montgomery is executive producer and June. Thomas is senior managing producer of slate podcasts and we will be back with another episode of arrogance next week until then hang on in there and please vote.
What Is Impeachment For?
"Hello amicus listeners. This is wls popping in with not just one but two exciting announcements announcements announcement number one. I wanted you all to be the very first to know about an exciting project. We have been actually working on hard here amicus and about how you can be a part of it so there's a lot going on right now. Twenty twenty is completely overwhelming. And we're just days into the new decade but I am trying still to stay. Laser are focused to pay attention to what really matters in this year more than any other. Maybe in our lifetime is about who counts and what that means is election and census US and voting. Our questions this can. American democracy survived the twenty twenty election. No small ass so look starting later this month election law professor and friend of this show Rick Hassen will be joining us for a special series as we try to find answers to these challenges and you can join us for the special. All series finale in Washington DC on February nineteenth. We're GONNA have a live and off the cuff discussion on the threats to the twenty twenty election and how how to combat them while there is still time if there is still time rick and I will be joined by former Florida. Gubernatorial candidate Andrew Gillum and the director director of the ACLU's voting rights project. Dale Ho among other amazing guests. You're going to be hearing more about this in the coming weeks and you know I don't do a lot of of live shows but I'm very psyched about this and I wanted to give you a chance to hop online. Grab your tickets right away. GO TO SLATE DOT COM slash. Live to get your tickets. I I am so looking forward to seeing you. All their God that it slate dot com slash live four tickets to maybe the most important conversation on voting that you'll hear this year now now announcement number two and that is that there is a fascinating conversation about impeachment going on right now in the slate plus members only feed for for this show. I spoke with Neal Katyal. He's former acting solicitor. General of the United States all about his brand new book impeach the Case Against Donald Trump. It it is an incredibly timely and useful book and it was illuminated conversation. So here's a little snippet of what we talked about in front of a live audience at the Aspen Institute. Dude this past week. Why am I advocating for this When the election is so close I guess two things one just simple logic and other historical all the simple logical one? Is this the president. The allegation against the president is really simple that he cheated in the twenty twenty election and he tried to get help from a foreign government and he got caught so to say wait for that twenty twenty election to the side. Things is kind of like if Dolly and I are playing a game of monopoly and she accuses me of cheating and I say well. Let's figure out whether I cheated by playing another game of monopoly. I mean it doesn't make any sense given the central allegation here. The the more historical answer is that you know this actually came up in the Philadelphia convention in seventeen eighty seven so during that long hot summer they deferred a lot of the questions about impeachment. Each meant to the end they wanted to know I kind of what the contours of the presidency. We're GONNA look like and actually they settled on a really strong presidency. And you know maybe we'll even take a question about you. Know the full extent of the president's powers with relation to what happened in the strike in Iraq but But you know the founders did Hamilton said in federal in the federalist papers they want an executive with secrecy dispatch a strong president who could act quickly quickly but then they said at toward the end of the Philadelphia Convention. Boy If the president is that strong we need to have some check on president that ax ax outside of the scope of his powers in betrays the American trust and founders like Albridge. Gary said. We don't need you to do that. Because they said exactly what you just say. The Gary said well they'll be a concert W we elections at that point. There wasn't the constitutional amendment that that said there'd be two term presidential elections so it was contemplated presidents could run run again. And the like and what Gary said is because they're always going to be running for re election then they'll be disciplined themselves in the election will discipline it and others like Hamilton and Madison. Said what if you have a president who fundamentally under mentally betrays the American trust. Are we supposed to wait and just let that happen. What if Madison said one of those presidents has helped from a foreign government And so then they actually even Elbert. Gary changes his mind and says absolutely. Absolutely that's what we need impeachment for. It is literally the textbook. Definition of what impeachment is a president who goes in seeks help from a foreign government to help him in his election that is front and foremost what the founders had in mind when they thought about impeachment. If you want to hear more go to sleep dot com slash amicus plus and sign up for a slate plus membership. It's thirty five dollars for your first year worth every penny and you can always take advantage of a free two week trial to check it out. I slate plus members help. Keep US doing what we do by supporting all the journalism here at slate including including this podcast go to slate dot com slash amicus plus to start your free trial and thank you for supporting the work we do.
150: On Time
"I'm Tracy k Smith. And this is the slowdown. The great cliche of aging. Is that time begins to raise past at a dizzying pace? The days aren't necessarily short, but the years are lightning-fast cliche for sure. But absolutely true. I see how unperturbed my children are by the passing weeks, months years. They don't feel time nipping at their heels life. So far must feel to them like one long summer afternoon as for me. I get a wave of anxiety each time. I glimpsed my calendar. All those little boxes full of places to be the blur of the work week. All the hurdles I must jump through on my race back to just one quiet evening at home. It hasn't always been like this, but feels like a long time since it's been any other way. What's to blame our workaholic culture, our market driven mentality. Or is it just the nature of time itself to chase us through the latter half of our lives? As if all of the sudden were no better than feves. Today's poem is on time by seventeenth century English poet, John, Milton. And I am almost relieved to learn that, even that great man of letters, felt dogged in his time by the day today. And so his strategy in this poem, which is an address to the unrelenting figure of time itself is to envision eternity. That is what he imagines will come after. Mortal time has run. Its course. It reminds me a little of those moments when you're so frustrated by the person attempting to serve you the ask to speak to their manager, that will do time you've been very unhelpful. I'd like to be transferred to eternity. Thank you. Most of the lines galloped past and brisk AM contaminant, but a few short lines stall, the pace, rhythmically this field, satisfying, given the speakers displeasure with all the rush, but I'll confess something to you the line that most frightens me in this poem is also the thing, I most often find myself longing for which is a break from the demands of time. What will it feel like when quote a tired with stars? We shall forever sit. I wonder will it be relief or boredom though, perhaps this very hesitate? Shen is simply an indication of the ways that time has had its way with me on time by John, Milton. Fly envious time tilled our run out, they race. Call on the lazy leaden stepping hours who speed is. But the heavy plummets pace and glut by self with what the womb devours, which is no more than what is false and vein and merely mortal dross. So little is our loss. So little is thy gain for when as each thing bad, though. Hassen to MD and last of all, greedy, self consumed, then long, eternity shall greet our bliss with an individual kiss and joy, shall overtake us as a flood. When everything that is sincerely, good and perfectly divine with truth, and peace and love shall ever shine about the supreme throne of him twos. Happy making site alone. On when once our heavenly guided soul shall climb. Then all this earthly grossness quit attired with stars, we shall forever. Sit triumphing over death and chance. And the Otani. The slowdown is a production of American public media in partnership with the library of congress and the poetry foundation to get a poem delivered to you daily. Go to slow down show dot org.
AP One Minute Headlines Feb 21 2019 05:00 (EST)
"Looking for the latest in entertainment stories. Well, you'll have to wait cream egg hunting season is. Tongue down the rare white cream egg and being with a chance to win a sweet prize of up to ten thousand euro, join us fellow cremate hunters and find out more by visiting Gabrielle and on Facebook and Twitter. I'm Rita Foley with an AP news minute going to court today in Maryland Coast Guard Lieutenant Christopher Hassen accused of being a terrorist with an apparent hit. Lists say prosecutors are US Coast Guard Lieutenant arrested on gun and drug charges last week is suspected of being a domestic terrorist. Prosecutors allege in court papers that Christopher Paul Hassen drafted an Email discussing biological attacks and had an apparent hit list that named among others. House. Speaker Nancy Pelosi Senate, minority leader Chuck Schumer senators Kirsten gillibrand Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker and Kamla Harrah's, according to court papers federal agents found fifteen firearms and over one thousand rounds of ammunition and Hossam's basement apartment in Silver Spring, Maryland, they also found more than thirty bottles labeled as human growth hormone, Mike Rossier. Washington acted Jesse smell. That's been charged making a false police report after claiming to men shouted racist. Anti gay slurs and looped a rope around his neck police want him to surrender. I'm Rita Foley. A.
NPR News: 01-31-2020 11PM ET
"Live from NPR news in Washington. I'm Nora Raum. The Senate voted this evening not to allow any witness testimony and the impeachment trial of president trump trump. The vote was largely along party lines. Only two Republicans voted with the Democrats to allow witnesses to short of the number needed. NPR's Tim Mack Mac reports. The outcome was decided when to Republicans. Senators Lamar Alexander at Lisa. Murkowski said that vote against the measure. Alexander said that the president had committed. It'd misconduct but did not believe it. Warranted removing him from office. Murkowski had a different line of thinking in a statement. She said that she did not think there would be a fair trial trial in the Senate explaining her opposition to additional witnesses. She wrote quote. I don't believe the continuation of this process will change. Anything is sad for me to admit that a- as an institution the Congress has failed. NPR's Tim Mack reporting. The trial is to resume Monday with closing arguments. The final impeachment vote is scheduled. Hold for four PM Wednesday eastern time on Tuesday. The president is delivered the State of the Union message. A Coast Guard lieutenant accused of stockpiling more than a dozen weapons happens and making a target list of prominent Democrats and journalists was sentenced in Maryland today. NPR's Hannah lamb reports prosecutors depicted. Christopher Hassen listen as a white nationalist terrorists who was stopped before he could attack Hassans lawyers argued that he was an opiate addict. Caught up in a sensationalized case a federal. The judge sided with prosecutors. The sentence just over thirteen years but the charges were related to firearms and drugs not domestic terrorism. Because there's no oh specific statute for that. According to court papers hasn't searched online for sniper rifles and racist literature and looked into travelling to Ukraine to fight alongside had neo Nazis. Prosecutors warned that he planned to murder innocent civilians on a scale rarely seen lamb. NPR News after a long on battle the United Kingdom officially parted company with the European Union today and was billed as Brexit Day. NPR's Frank Langfitt reports on what changes and what. Let's stay the same in the coming months so at eleven o'clock you're in Parliament Square. They actually played a tape of big. Ben bogging and that's because Big Ben is actually in scaffolding been scuffling for at least a couple of years here up at. They really wanted to ring in Brexit And celebrate basically what is is a divorce after decades of integration with the European Union Right now they're still people walking around the square with flags of Union. Jack flags wrapped around on their shoulders. now right now going forward for the next eleven months nothing is going to change between the EU and the kingdom they'll be in a transition period at the the end of this year. They'RE GONNA try to strike a new trade deal. NPR's Frank Langfitt reporting from London this is NPR news from Washington. Health officials in China. Say The death toll from the corona virus now stands at two hundred fifty nine. The number of confirmed cases is now more than eleven thousand Amazon. The World Health Organization has declared the outbreak a global emergency Americans returning from China will be screened at select points of entry to make sure they don't pose a health risk. The flu virus originated in the Chinese city of Wuhan reportedly from a wild animal market. Seven cases are confirmed in the US investors are growing increasingly nervous about the economic fallout from the outbreak. NPR's Scott horsely reports major stock indexes fell sharply today with the Dow Jones industrial average dropping more than six hundred points. Traders struggled throughout this week to get a handle on. Just how costly. This outbreak could be for the global economy with the State Department. Now cautioning Americans against travel to China and the World Health Organization declaring a global emergency the selloff turned to a route Delta and American and airlines are both suspending flights to and from China although Delta will keep flying through next Thursday to allow people who want to leave the country to do so the virus has now been detected acted in more than twenty countries all the vast majority of cases are in China. That country is the world's second largest economy and both a major supplier and customer the United States. Scott Horsely News Washington author Mary Higgins Clark has died. Her publisher said she died Friday in Naples. Florida of natural causes this is she was ninety two. She wrote fifty six suspense novels all of them bestsellers. I'm Nora Raum N._P._R.. News in Washington.
NPR News: 02-21-2019 10AM ET
"This message comes from NPR sponsor. Comcast business. Business has always been driven by innovators. That's why Comcast business is helping you with technology that provides better experiences. Comcast business beyond fast live from NPR. News in Washington, I'm korva Coleman. A Coast Guard Lieutenant and self declared white nationalist is scheduled to appear in federal court in Maryland today, prosecutors allege he stockpiled weapons and drew up a list of democratic politicians and cable TV journalists. He wanted to kill NPR's. Greg Myra reports the FBI arrested Lieutenant Christopher Paul Hassen in the parking lot of the coast guard headquarters in Washington last Friday, according to a co worker, but the chilling allegations against him are just coming out. Now, investigators say hasn't had fifteen firearms and more than a thousand rounds of ammunition of his basement apartment in suburban Washington. Prosecutors describe Hassen age forty nine as a domestic terrorist and say he planned. To quote, murder innocent civilians on a scale rarely seen in this country. They say hasn't had a spreadsheet listing more than twenty potential targets mostly prominent Democrats in congress as well as TV anchors at CNN and MSNBC, Gregory NPR news, Washington and vacancy groups are calling for a Federal Trade Commission investigation into Facebook. They're pointing to documents they claim show Facebook used unfair and deceptive practices related to inap- game purchases made by children NPR's. Laura sydell explains the documents were under seal after twenty sixteen settlement between Facebook and millions of parents. But the judge granted a request to unseal them by the center for investigative reporting. The document show that Facebook new children were using parents credit cards to play inept games, and sometimes rack up thousands of dollars in charges Facebook counseled app, developers to continue what it called friendly fraud, Jim style. The CEO of common sense media is one of the group's call. Calling on the FTC to investigate. The fact that Facebook themselves called this friendly fraud, knowing we're children as consumers shows. You the attitude that underlay these decisions apple Google Amazon were previously penalized for practices around inept purchases by children. Laura sydell. NPR news. The US embassy in Moscow says Russian authorities are denying consular access to a jailed American businessmen violating a bilateral agreement as NPR's Lucian Kim reports American citizen, Michael Calvi has been in pretrial detention in Moscow since last week Michael Calvin came to Moscow twenty five years ago and started when of Russia's most successful private equity funds last week. He was arrested in jailed pending a criminal investigation. A former business partner is accusing Calvi of cheating him out of almost forty million dollars. While Calvi denies any wrongdoing. The US embassy issued a statement today saying that in the weeks Cavs detention, the Russian foreign ministry has not granted console. Officials access to him. The embassy says access should have been granted within four days and is insisting on it. Now Lucian Kim NPR news Moscow on Wall Street. The Dow is down ninety six points. You're listening to NPR. Chicago police have arrested actor Jesse small et and accused him of filing a false police report, the whole news conference this hour last month small Ed who was black and gay had claimed he was the victim of a racist, homophobic, assault. Members of Venezuela's national assembly are riding buses to the Colombian border NPR's. Ada Peralta reports they're asking the military to abandon president nNcholas Maduro and allowed tons of relief aid to flow into Venezuela as lawmakers boarded buses the tension was palpable about the member of the national simply set. Of course, they were scared. But this is what they planned when their party leader declared himself interim president is planned conversation, and we have to do it. We are beyond the point of return that confrontation is set for Saturday when thousands of and as well as have been asked to show up at the border and at military barracks across the country to demand the military allow humanitarian aid. Right into the country President Nicolas model says he considers that a foreign invasion, April top and pair news got Gattaca officials in Ecuador say researchers have found a living member of a species of tortoise on one of the Galapagos islands. These tortoises haven't been seen in more than a century and were feared extinct. The furniture giant tortoise was spotted last weekend by scientists Ecuadorian officials say the teams suspects more tortoises may be discovered. Scientists were concerned they had been lost because of the frequent volcanic lava flows on the island. I'm korva Coleman. NPR news in Washington.
AP Headline News Feb 20 2019 18:00 (EST)
"Brexit hard or soft. No one knows. But if you are an SME or small mid cap likely to be affected by Brexit and are looking to innovate or prepare the Brexit loan scheme could help be prepared for every eventuality and find out how your business can benefit from the Brexit loan scheme. Loans range twenty five thousand two one a half million euro with a maximum interest rate of four percent and our unsecured half. A million euro terms and conditions apply. This is a government of Ireland initiative delivered by the SPCA. I find out more at SPCA dot gov dot ORG or call one eight hundred eight four four eight two. AP radio news. I'm like why a President Trump tweeted today, he told secretary state Mike Pompeo to deny entry into the US for twenty four year old hotel Mathon up from pale later said she and her eighteen month old son will not be allowed back in because her father was a diplomat when she was born in this country, her attorney Assad Shipley tells the a p she was born in New Jersey after dad's stop working for the government of Yemen. It's absolutely clear that who them within was born in New Jersey in nineteen Ninety-four with Donna left, Alabama and arrived in Syria in two thousand fourteen where she joined with ISIS. She now says she made a mistake in joining the group. President Trump was asked today a special counsel Robert Muller's report on his Russia investigation should be released while he's away next week for his summit with North Korea's Kim Jong Hoon up to the new attorney general he's tremendous man at tremendous. Person who really respects this country and respects the Justice department. So that'll be totally up to him. Trump spoke at the White House before a meeting with Austrian chancellor Chicago police official says detective suspect that empire actor Jesse smollet filed a false police report when he said he was the victim of a racist homophobic attack last month. Police spokesman Anthony googlies also tweets detectives and two brothers who originally deemed suspects in the January twenty ninth attack. We're testifying before a grand jury smell. Let's turn. He's met with prosecutors and police earlier today prosecutors say a Coast Guard Lieutenant is a domestic terrorist who wrote about biological tax and had a hit list and included prominent Democrats and media figures, Christopher Paul Haas Hassen is due in court tomorrow in Maryland is rested on gun and drug charges last week federal agents found fifteen firearms and more than one thousand rounds of ammunition. When he. He was arrested. This is a radio news. A winter storm that stretches from the midwest to the mid Atlantic and the northeast is causing travel. Trouble AP's, Ed Donahue has more snow forced Minneapolis and Saint Paul schools and other schools in Minnesota, and Wisconsin to cancel classes, the most flight cancellations because of the snow or at airports in Washington DC, Sean McCarty from Kansas City looked out at the snow at Reagan national airport and wondered why we certainly wouldn't shut down against city. It would still be business as usual. But yeah, it's interesting to see how different cities handle things Canadian tourists Riley Maxwell feels the DC snow is just the right amount. Now, the pictures kinda show in the summertime. So I think it's really nice to see all the white powdery snow snowfall here resulted in a day off for government workers at Donahue Washington in the south heavy rain from that system is prompted flood watches and warnings from Mississippi to Georgia nearly the entire state of Tennessee. I'm Tim Maguire AP radio news.
AP One Minute Headlines Feb 21 2019 06:00 (EST)
"The all new Toyota RAV four asks what if what if your ride was refined Rudman at the same time. Introducing a car that's got style and substance to spare the all new wrath four limited featuring a sophisticated muscular new exterior and available options like a premium JV allowed system and panoramic roof, y'all knew raff Ford LTd, Toyota, let's go places JBL and clarifier registered trademarks of Harman international industries, Inc. After years have been rolled up within an angel life. I'm free receipts of a mind of their own go, paperless and manage your travel expenses online with my taxi business, make the smarter choice that might Tuksy dot com. I'm Rita Foley with an AP news minute, the Vatican's leading sex crimes. Investigators have have told bishops they must protect the faithful from sexually abusive, priests investigate sex abuse crimes and prevent pedophile from entering the priesthood. Pope Francis summit on clergy sex abuse got underway this morning. He wants the lyrics to listen to the cry of the young he says who won't Justice and seize the opportunity to transform evil into a chance. The understanding on purification. I'm Charles to the desma police in Chicago say they're trying to give actor jussie smollet some time to surrender. He's now been charged with making a false police report after claiming two men attacked him told police he was attacked by two masked men who beat him in. Hurled racist and anti gay slurs at him last month. Oscar wells Gabriel reporting prosecutors allege Coast Guard Lieutenant Christopher Hassen is a would be terrorist who had a hit list, including prominent politicians. He goes to court today in Maryland. I'm Rita Foley. Hey, you with the rhinestone dot collar between us dogs. I just convinced my human of grey to a new home with the twelve hundred square foot bathroom. I think she called it a yard with Wells Fargo's three percent down payment on a fixed rate loan. My human realized new home was within reach learn more at wellsfargo dot com slash wolf Wells Fargo home mortgage down payments as low as three percent on a fixed rate loan require mortgage insurance, the home mortgage consultant about loan requirements. Wells Fargo home mortgage is a division of Wells Fargo Bank NA equal housing lender. MLS RND three nine nine hundred won the all new Toyota RAV four asks what if what if your ride was refined Rudd at the same time. Introducing a car that's got style and substance to spare the all new wrath four limited feature. Sophisticated muscular new exterior and available options like premium JV allowed to your system and panoramic roof, y'all knew raff Ford LTd, Toyota, let's go places JBL and clarify registered trademarks of Harman international industries, Inc.
Biden, Buttigieg, Kirstjen Nielsen, and Our Conversation with Senator Maggie Hassan
"During the month of April pants politics is on the road. We've hit Connecticut New Hampshire where currently in New York. And at the end of this week. We are going to be in Florida at Gulf Coast university at pasta in politics. And we hope you guys join us. This event is sponsored by FJC's, courage, Doron and political palooza. It is Friday April twelfth from five to seven PM tickets are on sale now at event bright. If you use the code pantsuit VIP you'll receive ten dollars off the VIP package, which includes a meet and greet a copy of our book, and then dinner and the speaking events, we hope to see you there at Florida Gulf Coast university for pasta and politics. But it isn't just slowing down. It's doing what you both were talking about. It's balancing those tensions with the understanding that hearing each other out and really listening in trying to address the concerns that people at the table actually creates better decisions that will have longer lasting impact and be more acceptable to more people in the country because you've really taken into account so many different perspectives. This is Sarah from the left and Beth from the right? You're listening to it zoo, politics, they're shouting. No insults. Plenty of months. On today's episode. We are so excited to share interviews. Senator Maggie Hassen that we just did. While we were in New Hampshire before we share that. With everybody. We are going to tackle a couple headlines that are becoming increasingly filled with presidential nominees. Tackling two of those and then to close out the show instead of sharing what's on our mind outside of politics were actually going to share the QNA from our event with Maggie has. And it was such a good question. Such a good conversation. We wanted to share that with you. We also want to make sure that you guys are having your own discussions this week because it is the national week of conversation. If you share your stories of having conversations with the hashtag, listen, I you'll be connected with people all over the country, having discussions about politics and important values in their lives. There are no special instructions here, you just gotta talk to people, and we know that you all are experts at doing that. So share those stories with the hashtag, listen, I just bring awareness to this. Great effort put on by the national conversation project Beth. My feelings about Joe Biden have not shifted. I'm hearing from you that yours have shifted a little bit based on his own personal reaction behavior. Recently when we touch on Friday, I had a lot more grace for Joe by in than I have today used it all up. Well, so I said Friday that to me this is a test of his leadership and his willingness to learn and now that he is out on the what seems to be the campaign trail the unofficial campaign trails. He still hasn't announced his intentions. I don't like that. He is repeating the same joke over and over that this person gave me permission to hug him or whatever he's done that several times now, and I just don't think that you can be in a space of learning when you're in a space of defensiveness. And that's what that joke is to me. It's defensiveness. It's deflection. It's making light of situation that is not at an eleven on a scale of seriousness, but is serious, and we should care about and have a reasonable conversation about. And I don't think it's funny. And I don't think this is a good approach if he wants to show that he truly is gonna pay more attention to how people feel about him. So yeah, Joe Biden has moved down on my grace meter. I'm trying to decide how he can handle those. Moments when he is hugging people or if he should just I don't know backing for a week or two. I mean, I think you should just just keep doing what he's doing. The point is not don't ever hug anyone again. Yeah. But it's going to be weird if he hugs people now, you don't think I think it gets weirder. When he makes his joke. Every rephrase it's weird when he hires people in front of cameras now like not in his personal life. But like he's on the campaign trail with this. Current news cycle obsessed with his personal boundaries in his sort of physical boundaries with people on the campaign trail all eyes are going to be trained on those interactions. And so he risk hugging. Accumulate frigging defending Joe Biden right now, if he hugged somebody and doesn't say anything then it becomes did. He asked permission. So I'm wondering if just recently in the near future for the next couple of weeks. He just. Maybe back up on the hugging. I think this is why we can't have nice things. I mean, I think you can tell when someone is responding enthusiastically or not, you know, and he just. This just isn't need to be an all or nothing kind of situation. I get that people are gonna write these stories and take these pictures they're gonna make montages and it's going to suck for him. But part of his opportunity is to to say it kinda sucks for me. And when those questions are out there, then he can say actually, I had a conversation with this person beforehand because I learned something, and I learned that my style does work in a modern world, but I have to be more explicit and getting people's permission. Like that's how he's trying to do. He's just doing it with a joke. But doing it with a joke. I think is the problem, right? Because that undermines the people who brought this to his attention before. Right. That makes them the joke. He's not willing to do the hard work. He's going to be the vulnerable person and be the so he's deflecting with those people. So that is my that's my issue with him right now. Again, I like Joe Biden, I'm not mad at him on a grand scale. I don't think he's the worst human being ever. But I don't like the ways handling do not think he's the worst person ever. I am mad at him. Because I don't. Think you should be running for president. So here's the other thing that we need to talk about with this because we listeners asked this question some of the conversation after you, and I talked on Friday shifted to should women have to call him out instantly. Is there a problem with waiting a couple of years to write about this? What's the responsibility of a woman in this situation? I have feelings about that. I imagine that you too yet. None good talk. But no, no one holds any responsibility to educate Joe Biden in that moment, period. Full stop. I think that this is gonna shift overtime right as his conversation. Ripens matures. Yes. I think women will have a responsibility to say the the bugs me can you knock it off can you stop? But I think acting like that was true a couple of years ago, really ignores all the work on the progress. That's been made around the me too conversation, the landscape is changing. And I also think that what responsibility you have. And when you have it depends so much on the relationship in the car. Context and the relative, power dynamics. And that's everybody wants like a checklist of ideas that keep them out of trouble in these situations. There's just not one it's too complicated for that. There's no one-size-fits-all for that particular calculus does every situation like that present an opportunity to educate to share your perspective to widen people's perspectives. Yes. But not everybody has to take that opportunity is a responsibility. It's just an opportunity. There's no duty for one class of people to educate another class of people. I don't feel like, and I think when you sort of again, it's the the classic. Are we trying to shame people in action or inspire them to action in the second? You make it you have to do this. It's your your unit educate men. I mean, I can fill my shelters titan. You know, what I actually think this is where tort law offer some useful principals, not a thing very often. But in tort law, one of the first things, you learn is that in most scenarios you have no duty to act, but if you're going to act. You have to act reasonably and I think that that's part of it. You've no duty to call somebody out on this. But if you do you want to be thoughtful about how you do it. Right. So that they're able to hear you. And then another concept from tort law that I think is helpful here is it sounds kind of pejoratively named. But with me the eggshell plaintiff rule. So the idea of the actual sales like of. Show plaintiff is that you take your plan if you find them, and so if I hit you on the street, right? I have to accept if you have a condition that makes my hit land on you in a way that's more damaging than if I hit somebody who didn't have your condition. Right. And so if the damage that I 'cause you with my punch is much greater than it would be to just any other person was an actual. It's still my problem. Right. I caused that damage and just because I think the damage is like way out there. So my point is that not a concept that exist in everyday society. It's all about your motive. And we don't care the person we found the other person, I think the actual plaintiff would be a good concept for everyday society, where we say like I didn't intend it to land this way, and you say because of my life experiences where I am right now where you are right now. That's how it landed. And so we got to have this conversation. Also side note, we teach our kids that we definitely expect our kids to behave like that we just don't want other adults too. Expect us to behave. Like that hundred percent other big story right now is that department of homeland security secretary Kirstin Nielsen resigned. What's weird to me about this story, which everybody I'm sure is hurt at Ozzy? By the time, this podcast is airing is the cure Nilsson's people. I guess put into the media stream that she was going into the White House to have a meeting about what is needed at the border to fix the situation and the president's people put into the media stream that she was coming to get fired. And I feel like she's kinda gone out of her way to sound like someone who got fired which is unusual scenario. And what it makes me wonder about is. What is coming next was? She is she trying to tell America that she was working hard to stay in her position to stop. Whatever is coming next. I don't mean to be like a conspiracy theorist, but this weird, right? Don't need to the reporting is saying that Steven this is Stephen Miller, and he's exerting his the full force. Of his influence inside the White House, particularly with guards to immigration. He's looking to be more hard edged about immigration, and sort of bring the administration along with and finally that's not a conspiracy theory. I mean, I think that that's the reporting out there. And it's also terrifying. He terrifies me. Don't know why he's still there. The country would be better off. Stephen Miller was the one being fired. I don't even like your Stinson. Stephen Miller is like the beatings will continue until morale improves. With this administration is trying to do on immigration is so obviously ineffective and every time. They learn it's ineffective there like double down. Let's do it. A little do it enough. We'll do it more that will fix it. Oh, the worst. And it forces us into this terrible scenario where you have people who are sympathetic to asylum seekers, basically, saying fine. Let's just have no process, then you know, what I mean? Because right now, we're at a place where the policies enacted by this administration have failed so terribly that we have created a crisis around our system when when the president tweets the country is full will ridiculous. But here's what's true. The detention centers are full. The descendants centers are full because we have done a miserable job with this issue. And the the fixed to that is not let's have no process. Then right. Like that's gonna land in a terrible twenty twenty. We do not want to twenty twenty election. Where one party says, it's fine whatever and the other party saying, let's lock everybody up there. In a way forward here, America. But that's not the way that that's not what Trump is looking for. Stephen Miller is gonna say, you know, what let's just close the border often. I mean as though that's the thing. It's not a thing. Mitch McConnell's definitely not going to let it be thing. I was just thinking though, when you said the word detention centers, and how I just have such a visceral reaction to that in how the reality is. I didn't really even know we had to engine centers before two thousand sixteen or maybe even before two thousand seventeen. So the entire story is that for better or for worse. We all are much more aware of our current immigration system where it's failing where it's full where it's under a great amount of pressure and my desperate optimistic. Hope is that because we are all more aware of the real boots on the ground reality. Now are do all of us have a complete picture of what's happened on the border. No, you can't have a complete picture of what's happening on the board until you go to the border, which I have not done. But I do think that everybody has a fuller picture of. Of the system and its failings in the pressures. Maybe just maybe that could lead to a better conversation surrounding immigration with the twenty twenty presidential campaign, and look it's a really complicated problem because I always hear myself advocating for aid in the northern triangle. Let's try to fix the situation these countries. So that we take pressure off of our asylum system, that's not easy. And that's the kind of intention that has led to lots of American soldiers being killed in foreign countries trying to be helpful. And so I don't want to pretend that anything about. This is easy. What I think is obvious is that this administration's approach hasn't worked and just in the same thing in crueler terms isn't gonna get us there. But that seems to be their only strategy, especially Stephen Miller steering the show. Okay. Speaking of crueler terms. The last thing we want to talk about is his favorite candidates named to pronounce Pete digits. Favorite game winning your prince Asian primary, but I do love to say, but a judge and now my four year old says visually. Well, I also have this weird tick where my brain wants to seeing about pizza judge about yes, he made a lot of news this weekend. Talking to Chuck Todd about his sexuality in his morality in his understanding of the church, which has led to because again, we can't have nice things full on Twitter controversy about a Piscopo liens of all things and Sarah back up. I say what he said he told Chuck Todd that if people have a problem with his sexuality they have a problem with his creator not with him. And that was the problem with the Mike Pence's of the world. So that's what started us. And he also said that he is frustrated with even Jellicoe supporting the president because he sees such hypocrisy in that which then that air Ericsson blesses. I cannot believe I'm uttering his name on this podcast to write about how there's hypocrisy in the British position. And in the entire concept of progressive Christianity because. He then was asked a question about abortion. And of course, said that there's an ethical issue, and there's a legal issue, and we can't legislate morality, and Eric Erickson says there you go see the parts of the bible. The you like not the parts that you don't. And this is a story as old as time. We're never gonna stop having this what it was his civic insult towards pyschopath liens. He said that the Piscopo liens have a shallow understand. How dare you, sir? How dare you, sir? One of the oldest Christian nominations in the nation. How? Sarah has said how dare you about twenty times today just about the story in the last like our, okay? So here is this is this is classic. This is so classic. I don't even know where to begin. My immediate response is no shallow understanding of Christianity is based on rules and morality rules regarding sexuality and deeper much harder. Understanding of Christianity is based on love your enemy and extend kindness to others in love the other as yourself. So first of all that's not that's a that's a beef that I have generally with the the way that this debate breaks down. No, I don't understand his general point about. Oh, you just wanna legislate morality that? You like. Pushback to that is no when he says, I mean, I think that for the most part when a progressive is arguing first of all I love the idea that now progressives are like super religious always arguing to legislate morality. That's that's a new one. But I think that what he's the nuance of that argument that he's missing is that that's not ever what progressives lean on that. We should care for the poor. Because it's the right thing to do. Because it's the the moral thing to do. You more often hear when discussions around social safety net is that it is the the more efficient way to care for people in a society. It's the more you hold off sort of when you when you spend on social safety net, and you spend on education, you're preventing spinning worst bidding on the back end of the line. It's an investment like, I don't I don't feel. I don't think he's right that the the idea is that we are the number one motivation for legislating the social safety net or. Sort of care for the poor. Which is something judge was talking about. This interview is morality is that it's a it's a better way for government to function. However, I have not heard the argument that the better sort of public policy outcomes come from legislating gay marriage, or even to be honest with you from legislating abortion. In fact, they tried to present those arguments in the California Supreme Court case about all these sort of public policy justifications for preventing gay marriage and for preventing gay, adoption, and they were not there. They didn't exist. They were unconvincing and had bad science behind them. So I mean, I think that that is, you know, falls apart pretty quickly with a little more poking. I think we're never gonna stop arguing about you. Like this part of the bible not that fight the bible in the Christian community. I think that when we do that we are missing the point entirely, but it is conversations go on forever for me. The takeaway from this story is what a public service Pete and trust. Buddha. Judge are doing just by putting themselves out in this light. And by having these conversations it really bothers me when we ask people to defend their own identities. And I hate that it takes a gay, man. Running for president to say things like this to make people reevaluate how they feel about marriage equality, but he is doing it. And I think it is really effective. And I think that the fact that he's doing it and being from a small town in Indiana just makes an enormous difference. And I'm grateful to the two of them for whether doing who are you going to compliment from the other side this week Beth I'm gonna come back to you speaker Nancy Pelosi who I feel is just doing such a good job being a role model on leadership. She could be kind of like, whoa is me. What am I to do? Now that my caucus has the power and a plurality of opinions. And instead of that, I think she's really leaning into that. I loved she was quoted in Politico's playbook this morning saying. Yeah. We've got some folks with big Twitter followings, but like I have to worry about what can pass and I like that. She's just taking that head on instead of trying to be coy about it. And I think she's just a great role model for women in leadership positions. And I'm I'm super impressed with her since she's become a speaker. Again. I don't really think Nancy Pelosi as well as me and her her took it, she's not a thing that she does. I don't think anyone who last as long as ANSI pool are lasted in leadership has that. And that is hard. I mean when you think about her staying power, it's remarkable amazing. So because we're about to share our interview with Senator might he hasn't. I thought I would compliment Senator Joni Ernst to his been working with Senator Hassen on veterans affairs, making sure that we do better by veterans, particularly with regards to the VA, and man, I just love I love a bipartisan woman team, I'm not trying to even lie. So as we're about to share interviews Senator Maggie Hassen, I would like to extend a compliment to Senator John yards. You're about to your conversation with Senator Maggie Hassen that took place at south church. Ch- in Portsmouth New Hampshire event was put on by river run bookstores and the New Hampshire women's foundation. It was a terrific audience of really smart engaged people. And so you're gonna hear us talk with Senator Hassen, and then after that you will hear a little bit of the Cuban. Even if we eat kale salads and drink green smoothies at every meal where most likely not getting all of the essential nutrients, we need on a daily basis and to ritual the obsessively research vitamin for women in too easy to take capsules ritual provides nine nutrients, you need to support a strong foundation for your health all in their clean absorbable forms, so many vitamins, you take your like is in this and with ritual. It's easy to know. They send you a list the way that the vitamins are encapsulated it just feels clean and healthy. I've so much more energy when I take these. I just rearranged my kitchen and I put them right with oatmeal. Because I every morning for breakfast. And this is how I'm going to do my oatmeal, my ritual, vitamin right? You gotta have that visual cue to build the habit. That's right. All of rituals vegan, friendly sugar-free, non GMO gluten free and allergen free ingredients and their sources are out there for the world to see it's only a dollar a day to have all the central nutrients. Your body needs delivered every month. No strings. Attached. Better health doesn't happen overnight. And right now ritual is offering our listeners ten percent off during your first three months fill in the gaps in your diet with essential for women. A small step that helps support healthy foundation for your body. Visit ritual dot com slash pantsuit to start your ritual today but ten percent off during your first three months at ritual dot com slash pantsuit. support for today's show comes from hellofresh. Hellofresh makes conquering the kitchen reality with deliciously simple recipes and fresh premeasured ingredients delivered to your door all meals come together and thirty minutes, max, call for less than two pots and pans, and require minimal cleanup plus with three plans to choose from including classic veggie and family. There's something for everyone. So get out of that recipe rut and start cooking outside of your comfort zone today. I love hellofresh because my husband is the cook. And I don't have a lot of cooking skills. And I'm not embarrassed to admit it. But what I've wanted to do recently as I develop a weekly Homer them cook with my kids more, and I find that because there's minimal prep. It's a really good way to get the kids involved and cooking, and it's something that I can handle with my minimal cooking skills for eighty dollars off your first month. Hellofresh, go to hellofresh dot com slash pantsuit. Eighty. And enter the code pantsuit eighty. That's hellofresh dot com slash pantsuit. Eighty and enter the code pantsuit eighty for twenty dollars off your first four boxes. So nobody in this room needs an introduction to your fabulous Senator has, but we're going to give you one because the people listening to the podcasts should get one. So you're the junior Senator from New Hampshire elected in two thousand sixteen a pretty intense nationally watched election for shore after serving as the New Hampshire governor from two thousand thirteen to two thousand seventeen and that is definitely the part of your biography. We are really interested in because we think the aspect of being from the executive moving into the legislative is just. Such a great idea. Everyone should do it. So why don't you start telling us about that of the two which she prefer? You don't have to answer just kidding. You're about you like what what are you finding to be different in the Senate versus your time as governor will. So first of all serum. Thank you so much for having me. Good evening everybody and to listeners out there. We are beautiful south church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire and everybody should come here. It's an extraordinary part of our state. And while you're here you can travel up to the White Mountains, and you can take in the whole state. So that's my plug for the granite state, which we're by the way, we also do democracy better than anywhere else. So. If people want to get a sense of what it's like to be in the middle of historic crowded primary. This is a pretty good place to be too. And I want to thank Tom in river run bookstore as well as the women's foundation to help him put this together, you know, the job of governor. Put quickly is to protect them of your state and everybody unit and so the job of Senator with the understanding that what you're doing also has national implication and impact in my case. And in New Hampshire's case, the two jobs feel more similar than they might in other places because New Hampshire governorship is a consensus building role. Our founders didn't think much of executives were little nervous about kings and Royal governors, so they structured our state government. So that the New Hampshire governor has an executive council. Five electric people from five different districts in the state who approve every contract the state enters into of about depends on the period ten thousand dollars or more. They confirm all the governor's nominees to the cabinet called commissioners who have terms. That are longer than the governors, and as you may know, we have legislature of four hundred people volunteers and a state Senate of twenty four. So a lot of the job is governor is really bringing people together hearing people out trying to find that pass that balances those tensions that you were talking about I also had been in the state Senate. So I had a sense that they are. About what legislative work is like the two jobs are different of. There are certainly times. I miss being home all the time. My husband and son are anchored here. New Hampshire my daughter's living down in DC right now. But I miss being here all the time. But I also have an opportunity now to take what I learned as governor housing's actually work on the ground. What the impact is like when you try to implement a piece of legislation, and that's what I try to bring to the table in the Senate, not surprisingly after the first small government shutdown that we had in twenty eight teen a whole group of us got together to push to reopen government about thirty thirties senators both parties and a very large portion of us governors, and it was. That sense that you can't let this go. We have a problem to solve. It's our responsibility to solve it. We gotta get with the executive branch and figure out how to reopen government. And so I think it's a really important experience to have I've been just incredibly honored and privileged to be able to do both things and to represent this state. And the people of this state is just extrordinary. I got to believe the six year terms better than the two year term now will that will be true. Yes. As a person who served in a two year term. I would definitely see that. So first in the nation primary every single one of your democratic colleagues is running for president. Sometimes it feels that. I mean, so I just we're totally fascinated by what that must be like for you. Are you letting them say in your guest room like how are you keeping them? How are you giving them insider tips like I just can't fathom what that's like we had a pretty good series of Saint Patrick's days jokes about this. But we are working all. The time in the Senate to be respectful of each other in all the many different roles that people play, and we are really lucky as Democrats to have a robust group running right now who have a range of experiences arrange perspectives, they're offering different focuses, and they are leading people here and think about different ways, we may be able to move forward in this country and come together. And so it's a real honor to watch them do all of that. I have been saying to all of them. I wanna make sure we roll out the welcome mat as well as we can. And I'm happy to be sounding board. And it's been really exciting to watch my colleagues. Both governors who I worked with as well as senators absolutely fallen of with our state. I get phone calls and texts all the time. Oh god. I did this. And it was so great that. I just love that. Yeah. On the other. Side of the aisle wear. No one is running for president. Here's a lot of time to think about how we use procedures in the Senate to get things done the way, we want them done. Right. Not we, but they we I would like to become closer to me maybe Sunday. So I guess so I wanna ask you about that process. And what you think the most important things procedurally happening in the Senate are right now, and where you'd like to see we could use the language of restoration of norms, or whatever you think, but I want to know how the Senate can work better. Again, will thank you for that. And one of the discussions that I think is relevant to some of tonight's program given that the women's foundation is one of the sponsors here. Is it real discussion about the importance of diversity and different perspectives in groups like the United States Senate? And I think we are now a historic twenty-five of one hundred of us are women. But. I think it's fair to say that the women of the United States Senate think we could have some more women and that it might help us restore indoor modernize procedures in the Senate. With the goal of respecting the norms that have historically made the Senate the place where we slow down a little bit. But it isn't just slowing down. It's doing what you were talking about. It's balancing those tensions with the understanding that hearing each other out and really listening and trying to address the concerns that people at the table actually creates better decisions that will have longer lasting impact and be more acceptable to more people in the country because you've really take into account so many different perspectives. We are I am concerned. I'm a new Senator I've just been there two years. We don't legislate a lot. We've been having a dispute debate within the Senate about the process needed to confirm the administrator. Nominees cabinet sub cabinet and to the courts, and there is real concern that some of the things that have happened with this week. In particular means that we are making very very quick decisions about people who have lifetime appointments to the court. There have been several instances over the last two years where the Republicans have had a majority they decided to go to just a fifty vote threshold for judges and. Even though there was initial consensus among Republicans that they were all going to vote for nominee. When we had. It least thirty hours of time between their nomination hitting the floor and the vote there were a few judges who were vetted a little bit more and actually some Republicans. Wait, wait a minute. Now that I've I'm not onto dish. I didn't hear the hearing. I didn't see all the files now that I'm reading this. I don't think I can't I think that's important. And so there is frustration right now. At least I'm frustrated because I think we are politicizing some of this process. And I know that the Republicans have view about the idea that it started with them Kratz when Democrats were in control. So I'm sorry to everybody who sometimes sinks. They're watching children fight because. Once one group says, it's their fault. And the other group says you started it, and I feel like a parent just wanting to cook dinner and saying I don't care whose fault it is just stop, let's fix it. So that's all by way of saying that I think there are ways where we could modernize. Because some of our process us take a long time, and they were designed in the nineteenth century. Maybe that's not exactly how we should operate. But I do think we need to take a deep breath and find a way where we respect the notion that listening to each other and giving each other a little bit of time with ideas really does create better decisions. You recently had a very similar thread encouraging everyone, including the candidates for president to take a deep breath and have some consideration with the green new deal medicate for all. Can you speak about that yet? Sure. Look, I am very proud of the fact that so many of my colleagues are putting out ideas to try to focus people on critical issues that are facing us. And there are no more critical issues than making sure every American. In has access to affordable, high quality healthcare healthcare is a right. And there is no more pressing existential threat to us than climate change. My concern about those two proposals. That you talk about is how they actually play out when you think about implementing them and whether let's start with the green new deal. There's a lot in the green new deal that isn't directly involved with how you address climate change in fist and clean, energy technology. Wean the country off of fossil fuels and those additional things happen to be pretty controversial and distract us from the urgent task of addressing climate change. There. Also, a number of things that we might be able to build some bipartisan support, we're beginning to hear colleagues in the Senate from the other side acknowledged that climate change is real and that may be humans had something to do with it. That sounds very elemental to me. But it's we'll take it. Right. And and that's frankly, also because those colleagues on the other side of the hour hearing from their constituents it's really important. So that's really good. But if we adult of other things to the mix. It's almost like trying to eat your meal all at once in one big bite. You're not going to be able to do it. And so I think it's really critical that we identify our goals here. In. Investing in clean, energy technology. Scaling that up working on energy efficiency. The use of energy and all of these buildings all around us is an incredible. Source of carbon emissions, and we got to do better. And that's one of the things that we could do almost immediately because there's so many good models. And when you get to Medicare for all. I think some people think of that proposals. Just a statement that Healthcare's right, and I agree with that. As you guys know, and I think most of the audience knows my husband, Tom, and I have to the oldest of whom has very severe pervasive disabilities. Ben is wonderful young man who has cerebral palsy, but he gets most of his nutrition from the feeding tube. He can't use his fingers to operate a keyboard or his I gaze to do that. So he communicates with facial expression with a lot of laughter and with a handrails. My family is as familiar with the strengths and flaws of the American healthcare system. As anyone who has private insurance and also supports from the Medicaid program. I worry about the upfront costs of Medicare for all. And I also worry about how we transition to it. Without disrupting the lives of people who need healthcare. The most in ways that we can't fully anticipate. We have a system that we can strengthen and improve. I would. Just love to get to the point where we can move from trying to defend the right now in court and legislatively, we keep thinking we've ended the conversation there and that it's time to move forward. American spoke up in the summer of twenty seventeen and said healthcare is a right. It's important to us. Do not repeal the ACA we kept that from happening. And yet we still see one effort after the next right now the administration government after it in court and efforts to undermine the by regulation, and we need to stop having to play defense all the time and really working improving. The system we have and making sure that everybody can get healthcare and bring healthcare costs down, especially the cost of prescription drugs. I want to ask you about addiction, which I know is an issue that you spend a lot of time on as governor. And now as a Senator you have written. Letters the FDA asking the government to take a look at it, self, right? What was our role in this crisis? I would love to know more about what prompted that what you hope to get from it. We are New Hampshire still losing. Slightly less than five hundred people a year to opioid epidemic. And we are also seeing a great impact on children and families. First responder told me a couple of weeks ago that she responded to an overdose. And went into a household, and there was an eleven year old little girl, giving her mother CPR was the second time that child had resuscitate her mother. So this is going to be something with us the ripple effects at this for a long time. The concern about what the FDA did is this. We know that the pharmaceutical companies particularly Purdue pharma really launched a marketing campaign about long acting opioids slowly slung acting opioids oxycodone, and they worked very hard to convince healthcare providers that it was not as a dictator of as traditional opioids. And in fact, various time said it really isn't addictive. The issue with the FDA is that at one point Purdue approach the FDA and got to change the label. So that in addition to using oxycodones for the treatment of end of life pain, generally cancer, patients or acute post, surgical pain or post accident pain. They got the FDA to change the label to say you could use it for chronic long-term pain. And it is not clear that the FDA had any evidence that that was an appropriate use for this drug or ran any trials that they're supposed to run before. They changed the label this way. So I've written a letter to the FDA saying, hey, guys when you change this label after some meetings with industry. And it appears to be from news reports were still digging into this that those meetings were in private what you doing. Did you follow your own processes because if we didn't we need to understand that? And then it means that the FDA has some accountability here too. And part of my job in congress is to hold government accountable and improve it make sure it never happens. Again. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm getting a signal from your staff as a former staffer just couldn't let it go. So you have a hard stop. So we're going to let you go. Thank you so much. We'll look think you guys for doing this, and the one last thing I would like you to know, and you as a former staffer syrup probably do know this. But I think grace is a very important work in this work, we do together and one of the best things I do every week is go to a bipartisan prayer breakfast with my fellow senators and. I want constituents to know that because we really do try to work across the aisle. We are actually achieving some things in a bipartisan way on veterans on opioids on cybersecurity. And it's important to know that just because that doesn't get covered doesn't mean it's not happening. And my last thought upon listening to your wonderful introduction. I was. A line from Robert frost at wonderful New Hampshire poet who said the only way out is through. And as Americans we've got to remember that the critical component of our democracy is that we love each other simply because an always because we are Americans. That's all we need to know about each other doesn't mean we always like each other. But we share the values enshrined in our founding documents. And that we've lived all these years and our job is to constantly get better. And eventually one day. I hope live up to those early words that are found are set out for us. And so this process of not just sorting but engaging with respect and love is really really important to the future of our countries. So I think you guys for doing this in Q so much. So get instead of sharing our thoughts on what's going on in our lives outside of politics, which is not much because we're traveling this working we are going to share the Nate from Portsmouth. So now, we thought we come down here and see if there's any questions have a little QNA. You met we were sorority sisters in college. And then we were not. I mean, we weren't particularly close in college. Was this law school? There's only thousand students, but we just stayed acquainted via Facebook. It's not all bad. I guess, and then I actually I started having kids and had home births natural Burs embeds was like sort of interested in that. And so she reached out to me, and we reconnected over that. And I was writing a parenting blog where I would literally like here's my stroller review. And then the next post would be like here, my cellphone, Syria. Like, I just didn't care it was mob. Lock talk about what I wanted. And it was like would you ever like some guests post, and I'm like, absolutely? And so she would come on. And she wrote a post called nuance that this was during that does everybody. Remember, see still the lion? God bless him. What I wouldn't give for a good cease of the line controversy these days, and she wrote like every chill like we don't have to be all in our all out on everything. And it was so well received and I've been thinking about doing a podcast, and I said would you like to do a podcast, and she said is unless it don't worry about it. We'll figure it out and posts. And that's how politics came about when you were talking about talking with family members, particularly hard in my family. I guess for a lot of those things. It's more shocking to me that somebody in my family is defendant. Some of the things that are so bad like it's different when it's just a political thing. But some of the things that have happened in our president has done are so bad that I I need them to tell me that they know that that was bad. And because they won't I don't I don't I've I've lost. I've lost some respect for them. I did defriend. My sister. And my brother. Oh, it's okay. I still give you grace for that spy through his wife. I mean, some of the stuff is so bad. It's not a great area in. There are some things that are not great. Absolutely, no doubt about that. I mean, okay. So my father is a big Trump supporter. This is led to conflict between us. I will say one of the big we have a pantsuit politics, but clo- in one of the best books. We read was called the righteous mind by Jonathan hey, isn't very. So the book store owners read the book, obviously. Is this good in? So his whole premise is that there are the values are different on each side. And that on the left you primarily see a focus on care in fairness, but that there are other values. There is loyalty to the group. There is respect for authority, and you see those surface more on the conservative side. But that you need to drive the car right in a community in a country. You actually do need people that are like we should probably watch out for ourselves. Because this we formed this group. And so the group is important. Let's say let's protect the group. You do need that as much as sometimes on like global citizenry. Let's just do it take everybody because I'm bleeding heart liberal, which is what my father call me if he was sitting right now. And so, but like learning that that I just have to be like, okay? It's not that they're valueless. It's that they're different and they express themselves differently. Their values are different. That's okay. That's okay. It doesn't mean. They don't care. It just means indifferent. That's going to surface in different ways. That doesn't mean that. I'm like, you know, when I'm pushing my father, it'd be like those kids are kids age, though, your grandkids age right there in those pictures on the border like push push push push push. Because I do I do say that to him. And I do wanna get in his face doesn't seem like grace field term, but that's a little bit. What I do. Because it's again, it's back to when I feel more responsibility to do that when we were talking about when it's like, those issues that there are no grey areas in which I have to kind of because I because I can because he's my dad put myself in that space with him and be like this isn't going to work in like he was actually the one during the election. That was like, maybe I should infringe on Facebook. And I had to call and be like, let's talk about it. We're not gonna do that. Here's why. Because we have to talk about these things when it's hard when it's not when we feel like we're ju- I feel like sometimes when I'm talking to my dad, we are on different planets just different planets, but I have to. I mean, I gained so much. When I kind of better understand, I don't wanna live on his planet. But I do want to better understand it. So that's what I just kind of have to. It's just a practice. I'm not gonna fix it one time, and I'm not gonna understand it one time, and I just keep doing it and doing it and doing it. There's a life coach named Brooke casino who I really like. And she says this great thing about money that money makes you more who you are money doesn't make you better. It doesn't make you worse. You have more money. It just makes me more for you, are I think Donald Trump is more of who we are. And so for me the question, and I've been thinking about a lot is like everybody listens to our podcast know that I'm a very disappointing Republican two other Republicans in two thousand nineteen because I have some really bright lines that this administration has crossed. I don't feel like there's anything conservative about a lot of what this administration has done. So I just appoint those people, and when I'm having conversations with them when I'm trying to understand is what was in you kind of cooking that Trump turned the heat up on in and formed into this immovable thing, what got you here. And I find that the best way to figure that out is to not talk about Donald Trump. Because once you bring him to the party is not a party anymore. This is why his name ends up on everything that he owns right because he just takes it. And I don't want him taking over my personal relationships even with people who who feel like they're on a different planet that I am. So what I try to do. We're talking about family separation, right? Which is where a lot of roads lead right now, a lot of people can hang for this bipartisan. Let's hear each other out until we get there. And then we're done, and I feel very strongly about too. So when I try to say to people is help me understand your thoughts on immigration. Not should the president have done this or not not should the department of Justice and DHS not. Let's let's just step way back from what's going on right here who should get to come to America under what circumstances should they get to come to America under what circumstances should I get to move out of America. If we're gonna go to Canada, which should I. Have to do to get there and just strip away the frenzy of the current moment. So that we all put our defenses down a little bit. And I'm listening, and I'm feeling curious and he's hard and it takes a lot of patience, and you don't get it done in one conversation. But it does tell the person I'm still interested in you, even though you don't see to eye, and there's a point where you have to you have to be honest with people and sometimes that can feel like shaming them. I try to make it not. But I have a family friend who's been in my life since I was sixteen years old who says table things about immigrants terrible. And is the kind of person that if your car breaks down he will stop for a stranger and help. And so I don't understand the disconnect there, and I just have to say that to him. Sometimes I love you. I don't understand why this feels different TV. Than the person who's cars broken down the side of the road. And when you say this, I don't hear any truth in that. And we just keep working through that. But I do start an end with. I love you because I need him to know that or I can't expect him to move whatever baked cake that Trump's formed in him. If I say, I can't be your friend anymore because of this it gets harder not softer. I was gonna say to. That's a phrase Beth uses a lot that I steal. I don't see the truth in that also in just just go with me here. Did anybody ever watched TLC sister wives about them polygamy family? I okay. One of my favorite things I ever said on that show was they believe polygamy is a religious practice because forces them to bump into each other. When you got like, otherwise, there's lots of just bump up against each other's humans a nurse. You make jealous, and they believe that's a spiritual practice because. Is it rough roads they're rough edges off? And I just not a polygamist an I'm not encouraging you to become polygamist. But I do believe our job as human beings is to boom up against each other. And that is not always pleasant, but it is so important, and I feel like there's probably like a granite state application, I can make your, but I'm too cold. And I can't think it through. So so agree. A little bit older than most people audience in just looking back. I haven't seen such division in our country since the late sixties seventies. I'm sure some of you remember during the Vietnam war. And I think some of it has to do with media. And I didn't explicit experiment myself a year ago Facebook anyone who said anything on the left or the right got on followed. And all of a sudden, I started seeing earth and vacations graduations, mostly what I see. And so my question to you is how much of this is being augmented by Twitter's Twitter fees, and Facebook's in mainstream vox so much of it. I think it's not just that the way personalities like would that we're talking about politics on social media? But we're also letting those algorithms give us our news, which is really Banat we go to college campuses. And we're like where do you get your news Snapchat? I'm like, no falls not because I mean, I don't like social media. But because that's an algorithm in an algorithm is going to respond to emotion. What makes everybody really mad? What makes everybody really said. Let's show you that one of my favorite things to remind myself about the medium virement all the time is debate. Who's the host of on being she's fabulous? She says I have to remind myself at the headlines or not the full story. Not just that story of our story. They're not the only thing happening in the world. But if you are engaged in you're getting fed and algorithm of news, or if you're on cable news, particularly on Fox News. There's actually a documentary on Fox News brainwash. My dad has anybody heard of this. Yeah. It's like a real movie skilled at home of you on that amazing. And so I think that that that the way that it's being filtered to us as opposed to like everybody sits down and won't Walter Cronkite tells everybody the same thing is very different than what we're experiencing right now. And so I think you're absolutely right. I think that has really inflamed and like Hardin those opinions, I think it's really important that you see the baby pictures the graduation post too. Because the other problem is your political friend like tends to shy away from the baby pictures and the graduate like life becomes I am. Press secretary for my party. And so everything that happens, politically, I will share with you my opinion on it. And a part of our book that really the hardest part of our book to write is the chapter we talked about keeping politics and its place because it is so important, but it is not everything, and we cannot have relationships with one another it becomes everything can't. And so I think the issue is social media is I don't think it is the problem. But I think it is a tool that because we don't fully understand it. And because we're the beta test of it is contributing to the problem in ways that we don't fully understand. And I think eventually social media could be a tool that helps us out of this. We have some really wonderful interactions with people on social media now that is because we kind of have defined space. Right. We got a community of people who spend hours with us a week. So they know what? We're about they know what we're not about. And when they come to us on social media. We have seen the unicorn of the internet where someone is a jerk and then apologizes, and it's a beautiful thing. And then to see other people forgive that person online. Right. So people have the capacity to do well on social media. But I think it takes practice and intention and thought, and those are not words that we typically think about when you think about Facebook and Twitter. And so I think you have to wrap a community around that for it to work. Well, well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much to Tom riverine. Thank you to the New Hampshire women's foundation. Thank you to Senator Hassen and her team we loved this event. If you would like to know more about having events with us, you can send me an Email or a Lisa PNC politics, show dot com. Thank you for joining us today. We'll be back in your ears on Friday until then. Dylan Garvan produces pantsuit politics every week. Thanks for making a sound better. Dylan at least nap is our managing director, which means we could not make it without her scheduling organization feedback in creativity. Thank you alise. We couldn't make pantsuit politics without support from our listeners. Go to patriot dot com slash paint soup politics to learn how you can receive more nuance and help us make the show special. Thanks to our executive producers who have committed to supporting us a major life giving way Tracy put off Tim Miller cherry Haas. Sarah's husband nNcholas Holland and my husband Chad silvers. Arthy music is composed and performed by Dante Lima the music under our ads is composed and performed by Dylan Garvan. Learn more about our lives live events that were involved in what we're reading each week by signing up for our weekly newsletter. Pantsuit politics, show dot com and connect with members of the pantsuit politics community by following us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.
AP Headline News Feb 21 2019 15:00 (EST)
"Run into old navy for fifty percents off old navy active. Today's only today tomorrow, all your favorite active leggings. Hoodies mesh teas and more are fifty percent off. Hurry. It ends tomorrow at old navy and old navy dot com. Valla two twenty three and two twenty four excludes in store clearance, looking for the latest in entertainment stories. Well, you'll have to wait cream egg hunting season is. Down the rare white cream egg and being with us to win a sweet prize of up to ten thousand euro, join us fellow egg hunters and find out more by visiting Cadbury. Ireland on Facebook Twitter. AP radio news. I'm Ed Donahue, Chicago police superintendent Eddie Johnson wants an apology from empire TV actor jussie smollet. He turned himself into day to face charges of making up a story of a racist. Homophobic attack against him. Johnson says there's no evidence connected to the two men. There is now evidence connected to the two men accused of attacking small. We have the check that he used to pay them. So the thirty five hundred was for the two of them in total and then five hundred on upon retire. Johnson says any bruises on small let we're likely self inflicted. The police superintendent points out scenes from empire are filmed in Chicago, how can an individual who's been embraced by the city of Chicago turnaround and slap everyone in this city in the face by making these false claims Johnson alleged smollet staged the attack because he was unhappy about his salary coast guard. Lieutenant Christopher has. Him is being ordered to remain in federal custody near Washington DC, thankfully, we're able to avoid and prevent any loss of life. In this case Hassen is accused of being a white supremacist who stockpiled guns and compile the list a hit list of prominent Democrats in high profile members of the media. Robert her is the US attorney for Maryland sheer number and force of the weapons that were recovered from Mr. Hassans residents in this case, coupled with the disturbing nature of his writings appear to reflect a very significant threat to the safety of our community. Prosecutors say Hassen drafted an Email in which he said he was dreaming of a way to kill almost every last person on the earth. Teachers in Oakland, California are on strike part of the national wave of discontent by educators over classroom, conditions, pay and other issues, a source says the Senate intelligence committee will interview President Trump's former personal lawyer Michael Cohen behind closed doors on Tuesday. This is AP radio news. A thermos may be connected to a deadly bus crash in New York. Here's the Warren Levinson, officially the National Transportation Safety board sites. Unintended acceleration for unknown reasons as the cause of the September twenty seventeen bus crash that killed three people and injured sixteen but the agencies report raises the possibility that the drivers thermos fell between the accelerator and the brake in such a way that the break was blocked, but the bottle press down on the accelerator pedal. When the brake was applied the bus ran a red light at sixty miles an hour slamming into a city bus crossing a sidewalk and crashing into the facade of a restaurant. The charter bus driver was among those killed Warren Levinson. New York climber has died on New Hampshire's mount Washington. The National Park Service has Jeremy Allman of nearby of nearby. Boston was hiking up a snowy icy area of the northeast highest peak when he apparently slipped and fell more than three hundred feet into an area. With a lot of boulders. I'm Ed Donahue, AP radio news. News run into old navy for fifty percents off old navy active. Two days only today tomorrow, all your favorite active leggings. Hoodies mesh teas and more are fifty percent off. Hurry. It ends tomorrow at old navy and old navy dot com. Valla two twenty three to twenty four excludes in store clearance.
Jenelle Isaacson, Living Room Realty Behind the Yard Sign 008
"This podcast includes explicit language. Situations is intended for adults eighteen years of age and older these thoughts and opinions are those not of any specific group employer or individual listener discretion is advised from the speed nurture studios. Welcome to behind the yard sign with your host. Just an unwritten. Kelly kellyanne all right justed. Welcome back this is our eighth episode of we have a really great guest. Bright smack in the middle of episode. Who had kind of a legend here in portland. Not just in real estate but in just portland. Business in general can really awesome. I wanted to talk about sometimes. We just had to digest some things that have happened to us over the weeks in like two people can get you a real estate having sell through our eyes. I mean all our job is of course is to merchandise homes for sales and all these agents are running around doing all the other harder part of getting getting a house sold. But let's talk a little bit about something that just happened to us in and around a property that was previously staged by somebody else. Is that right and then they just never staged the you but we chose to advocate for that than basically what happened is super interesting story so we were contacted a couple of months ago. I think it was around four months ago or so. This is kind of innocuous of of projects that had happened recently. Contacted a couple of months ago to stage the house. The immediate phone call was like it's too expensive. Okay well let us know if you need help in the future. Because honestly i talked to a person today on the phone and the first thing she said was i was blown away at. How expensive your pricing wasn't i said. I'll tell you a secret. And she goes. What's the secret i said. We're worth every penny that. Oh okay i said. Do you have any other questions. And we actually had a really good conversation. Once we got past the whole. Like look i'm gonna it. I know for a fact. I'll get your house. Sold ninety eight percents successful. I know i'll do it so i'm worth it. But let's rewind for months we go out. We do pricing for this house. We're bidding competitively. Yeah and just like if you're dealing with nordstrom versus kmart versus at let's say sears kmart is always going to win on pricing always every single time you will get the cheapest the ryan cambridge gonna win. We pride ourselves on. Being kmart brought us Nordstrom we do job for people who have discerning tastes. They want it done right the first time and so sometimes we're not the cheapest and in this particular instance we didn't get the work and that's okay. We're not everybody. That's all right fast. Forward four months later they have not sold their house. They have now spent over eight thousand dollars on home staging not sell their house so do they. They were really looking for a budget. Stager interested their budgets gene and they they got it for a lower monthly rental rate than what we would have done right and so they got to pay less for a longer amount of time. So i think our total fee on this project was like six thousand bucks so we could done like six thousand dollars for unlimited home staging and it would have worked out great but instead it's been eight thousand dollars with a quote unquote less expensive homes. Top service might say by meeting were staging the entire home. Top to bottom every space would've been more as raza takes for as long as you take away so our top service still beat out at stager price because of how long it on the market. Because you've got to realize like longer. The house stays on the market the more money. The home stager makes yeah. That's that is so backwards to me. So they call seven alike. Occa- we use this other stager. It didn't work. We're going to move out of the house by the way to sadok the mouse like we're so we're gonna move to the house. We wanna go guaranteed. We don't have any more money. We want to spend on this so we want. Can you come in to help out of this like yep absolutely no problem. We show up at the job site that day. We realized that there is an eighty. You there's a second house on the side and somebody's living there and we're like hey if you're gonna live at the site we're going to charge you the higher rate because it's harder saw occupied houses there like will. We can't just move out today. Well we understand you count today. We didn't know about eighty you miss indication. We get it. We'll give you two weeks together. Eighty you we'll go back in we'll stage it and then we'll keep you the low rate and so the house on the market. It said on the market for two weeks with the occupied by the seller. Photographs look like occupied photographs. I don't want to be judgy. Bitch but occupied photographs are never as good as vega stage projects. They just john ever lived guns. Because when you stage a project from scratch it's one mind doing one direction. Making it look. Perfect for that third graph. If you live there you got crap out like your cpap machine and you know your lube is on the table. And you know that you're undershorts hanging on the young male your simon bedroom describing with my bedroom looks like so we said go ahead and get this about they. They decide they're going to move out in two weeks they're gonna move into their rv. They're gonna take a trip across the country they are dead. It's gonna take a long time to sell this house. We right to the agent like a stage the eighty you on thursday. Let's get those photographs on friday. Let's get posted so we can then be on the market with the right photographs here that weekend. Lo and behold we stage the house. They put the photographs up and that weakened it sells they go pending so they were staged with us for a total of two weeks and two days sixteen days to get this thing sold under are guaranteed products out of love in the room and they found that out me. You probably really pissed off at us. But here's the thing. Is that like you not only wasted. The eight thousand dollars that you spent with the other stager you also paid taxes yup mortgage insurance principal interest. You paid all these things. Plus your life is on hold during those four months that you have that budget stage in your house and it's not selling i get just makes no sense to me at all and so that was my like total win of the day. It made me so happy and we are getting phone call after phone call about fifty percent of our business right now is stale donuts. Who call us and say we tried with somebody else. It didn't work. Can you please come save us. And what i would love to propose is like hey how about if we don't have to be the second choice. What if he just use the first time. I think i think it's really exciting. Time as as history shown in all businesses all business not just real estate market changes really change. How businesses operate because a really exciting time for us because we really get to put money where our mouth is. Because we've been talking about well prepared homes and paying from closing for a long pass time well before this ever came around so we're just like we're on autopilot over a year with the same messaging and i think that exactly to your point i think what will occur over time as agents more agents will realize admit he probably take a stronger stance on doing it right from the beginning and staging it correctly from the beginning and being able to explain to their clients. I mean this is all me. Wishing alowed is mike my wishlist. What agents will be able to make really strong points about not just engaging stager but engaging the right stager or right photographer or the all all of the right correct vendors from the star in order to move these homes and sell in a super timely way and ideally over asking and that happens with our clients time yes in a global pandemic. so it's like this is equal opportunity. it's just like the messaging and the belief systems and the stigmas have to switch and catch up to kind of like a new real estate of our sales numbers. They showed the proof in the pudding with guaranteed is ninety eight percent effective with pay up front. Full stations. Ninety percent effective. When we start doing partial we get down to eighty six percent which is like you know a. b. and i don't know about you but i was never satisfied with bees in school i wanted as i'm good with ninety three with ninety eight i will do better with one hundred but you can't get them all but i heard you had some good news kelly trademarks going on what's going on there. Oh yes oh what's fun for me. Is i do messaging all of the the branding and all that all those things in you know we always talk about how we are the first thompson company to Have this guaranteed program that you came up with. And now you know share this week that it has on trademark so we have a couple of trademarks. Now is a company which is so cool. I mean how many homes seniors do you know trademarks And we really get to put that little cool symbol around guaranteed home aging. It's so exciting. And now like not only are we. The world's first guaranteed home stager like its trademark. Like nobody else can even use it like. It's so awesome and we do. We see we see other homes. Doing you know finance towns aging which means that whether it works or not. You're still going to pay that you get to pay with interest woohoo and if your average credit card company is eighteen percent interest you're looking at somewhere between twenty five thirty five percent interest for your home. Staging by the way with was fading archer guaranteed no interest at all. We don't charge interest. We don't have it in that second part of our business model so like imagine that previous example that we just talked about they would have paid say they didn't have the money and they financed the stage right. That didn't work by the way they financed it. Be their state still be paying off that illicit if you're looking at like twenty five percent on eight grand then you're looking at like what is that another two thousand dollars over the course of a year and they're offering thirty years on these things so like you want to pay two thousand dollars a year for the next thirty years. Have your house state as rick to me. It's so crazy especially like when you can pay from closing and have it be that you're going to think about i kinda like it. I think we've done a really great job. If our clients could hire us have us come in. Do our job sell their house and like not think about us. Like i don't want people thinking about us in paying bills to us forever and ever and ever like we just wanna come into our. Thanks all your housing. Get out of your life. Get your hair. I want you to think about long enough to write a review on google on. That's it. I want them to to. Just write a review and then totally forget about us forever. Let's make it easy. You know sell wants to talk. Talk us up at their next dinner party or whatever sure knock yourselves out. We love referrals. Which by the way. I hear that kelly makes a fantastic dinner guest so if you get a chance sites like eating too so yeah that's super bowl. I mean we. We love talking about just stale doughnuts and general right now we love talking about staging from the beginning we love talking about properly listing from the beginning we are so consistently like i feel like we've earned this trademark for no other reason than we are educating leg every single day agents on what this program is so i'm just like you bet your ass. No one else is going to be able to call us to any kind of program on their business guaranteed. Because we're doing all the educating on it like that's the us the elbow grease bringing to the table. Are you ready to go. Talk to janelle. She's waiting in the green green room. I love again it. It's so fun for me because these are like your people because you've been involved in this town this business for so long Meet these people in there like spotlight like it's so fun for me to be introduced to these people this way. So yes i would love to meet an interesting especially in a world right now when when everything is on zoom and we don't get to talk to each other in person anymore to actually meet a new person and get a to sit down and talk with somebody that's not through. Instagram is amazing with an instagram post. You can edit and rewrite about three thousand times here people just say shit and your what's really interesting and i think this might be a good piece of advice if anyone's trying to get exposed to really experience people's like i think through this podcast Through zoo when everyone kind of being more at home. I think we're getting. We're getting people to come out. And they're being so generous with their time to be on our show because their home they have like time for us like so. I feel so spoiled because i'm getting exposed all really awesome super interesting people who have totally work their ass off. They've been available to speak to us. I just feel so lucky of that. Some super grateful casinos busy af. Yes she not only is a realization. She owns a real estate agency company. In here's the thing. Is that like we reach out. And we asked the beyond the show but really like i would love it if you're listening to this show and you're interested in being on here. Don't wait for me. Reach out and ask you. Don't wait for kelly to reach out and ask you react to us say it. Let us know you've got an interesting story as to how you got here and we'd love to talk to you. Give me a call. We'll make it happen. Let's go talk to ohi everybody. We are so lucky to have is with us owner of living realty your in portland and so just in general. You guys have been long time friends. It's through entrepreneurs organization right before really or that. Yeah when i first opened my company. Justin came in. He was just starting his company in did a pitch to our office. And i felt like in my head i was just thinking. We're going to be friends actually sent me my first employees. I think we both started like the fred the same year you started in two thousand nine. Yep two thousand nine journalism. Better business person than i am. Which is the mind. But it's not a competition. Well i i have never had the pleasure of meeting you before so. I'm so glad you're here in an absolute pleasure to meet you. So thank you for coming on the show with us. Yeah thanks kelly. We love talking to experienced veterans in real estate. And you definitely qualifies that what we'd love to note. I think our listeners will doug to know is how you got started in real estate. And why why i've been license now for eighteen years since two thousand two four. Yeah thank you know. I was in my mid twenties actually and i was working as an artist and a musician. I had just moved to portland in two thousand. I was in a girl punk band and we had been doing a national tour. And i convinced everybody why we were out to move back to my hometown. Which is portland. Let's go back there. Let's be based there of always been a really long term thinker. I knew that like my life is an artist and a musician that everyone in my family is a nurse at teacher work for the state and so they were constantly hounding me about what you do for retirement. What are you going to do for benefits. How are you going to take care of yourself. How do people do that. And so i started seeing examples of other artists musicians. I knew that had bought a house found a way to bought a house and they were renting out the rooms and it was giving them the freedom for some security and i also thought wow okay well then thirty years at least i know all oh my home so it was really like a survival instincts that got me looking at purchasing my first home and when i accomplished that it felt like my whole world changed as still playing in the punk band at that time and i'd get off the state hop up at the bar and i would like to to know you can buy a house and i just wanted to everybody you holding it. Yeah and do it. And i was referring all of these clients to some other. Who is an agent and she goes. Have you ever thought about getting a license yourself. Not that i don't love all the referrals but like you're out there telling everybody like why don't you help them. I immediately thought what realtors i mean. That's a real job my identity. At that time. That was a really big leap to make it in. You know. I knew her in real estate but just seem so strange so eventually i did. I got my license in. And i found i did have kind of this captive audience because nobody is the time in portland. In the market in two thousand and two was targeting artists musicians specifically speaking to them people that lived alternative lifestyles. And so i. I had this captive audience in my career. Took right off. I'm an east coaster so for me. It's like the most hilarious portland thing. Of course you are in a punk band and now you on real estate. That is so tacitly portland. That's amazing and you're playing this rock band you're talking always people you get your license. You go to work for a local company passing hasn't company but at some point you're like hey you know it'd be cool if i started my own company. So what was that push. How did that happen. You know mike hassen was a tremendous mentor leader and he really shaped how i thought about real estate i. I don't think there's anyone in the industry that does a better job of articulating the value of experience and the value of a really great realtor. In the seem so funny now talking about it but there's no one at the time that was showing real people living in real houses. It was all this facade that we were marketing to. I just felt invisible. Like you know showing up to company meetings. And i've got eyeliner halfway down my face and i'm a little rock. A lot of my clients are queer people of color. And so i didn't see me or my community or portland for that matter. I mean we're talking about portland oregon. There was a moment. I think we're frustration. Grows into the opportunity. Flopportunity as you would say you wanna be in a performer. being art inst- being. I have a captive audience. Like i know how to get on that stage and talk to these people and i was saying. Well there's this way of having a business you can totally authentic and had this kind of portland s brand like could i do that with real estate so it was less of a business decision that unlike this is my new art project and i knew very little about actually operating a true business in kind of just jumped in feet first and the as i was dreaming this up was two thousand seven two eight and jumped straight into the crash of the housing market. Your boss you're like actually. I'm going to start a new company. It's going to be called living room. Mike conversation look like we just no one left the hassen company. They had a going away party for me. That's unheard of you know. Mike and i were friends and he just said hey. If this doesn't work out you know you always have a place year being a company. Now i have had i think seven different firms now spin out of living room and become our direct competition. I've helped other firms get ready and get started. It says a lot about a leader. How they leave a company. And i left with mike and conversations and transparent and like an only good things to say like i owed him everything. He raised me right. That's not always the case. And then also i've also tried to remember to hold out the olive branch because what you realize you get a few years down the road and running the business and you're alone. Nobody knows what you're going through. Besides the person you just left and so tearing down the person that you left a mistake 'cause you probably gonna really need them the day usa door. You had to get a brand and a name and a website and a space to rent and desks and computers and all that shit. Yep what was the seemed overwhelming at that time. Well a lot of that. I had done before i left. I was preparing. Your market was super hot was thousand seven and i was getting ready preparing for the hot market to open the company so it was really like the stuff that was hard was like i had disability insurance through hasson getting disability insurance. I also had a baby in two thousand seven. And i had another baby in february of two thousand nine so i'm also nursing and have a toddler baby in diapers as this is happening in the second one's a total surprise right like i was pregnant until four months and so it's like i'm opening for real estate company so i gave birth to her a week. After we opened the doors moved in. So i think a lot of what i was struggling with much more personal than business and a gentleman that i started my career with house in greg washington. Who's been in the business forever. He's loud he's hilarious. He's been selling real estate in northeast portland forever and i owned a little commercial before i open living room that i was going to put the business in. I thought oh this is q. It's like a couple doors up. Berta street will be quiet will be good place for means. I'm going to have the babies and he comes and he's like. Hey are you settled on your location has girl. I think my business cards literally get printed tomorrow. Yeah pretty pretty settled and he goes. Hold the presses like you got it. Lisa space from brooklyn hill and it's on on fourteenth and alberto were case study. Coffee is now. It was right on the main street right next to tin shed. And he's got a jump on this like think about the exposure. It's entirely glass. Open to the busiest cafe in Just got voted america's number. One breakfast fought on. yes before longest. Line stand there for hours europe. It was so they were just like they're lined up. It's a captive audience. And i just thought. I have two babies. I'm nursing inside this glass box like it felt exposed but i. I had to be reminded at that time. My assistant actually was like we ought to do this. Am i think so. She's like we gotta do this. And it's like okay anyway so going on adding a main street address was so important because as a new brand they just immediately see me and immediately. We started getting calls. Oh i see. You're an expert in this neighborhood. We've been there two weeks right but like we're there and we're invested in the community and then also this is two thousand and nine and i think the last ten eleven years been the biggest boom in portland's history and here we were at the front end of that. Not knowing like everybody in their mother would be moving soon. New york times started writing about portland. Weekly we became you know in japan. You're traveling marry like yo. You from portland oregon. It's like of a sudden. We were on the radar nationally. And here we are at the spot and it just. It was huge exposure. It's just we got so lucky. When you think of real estate you think of real estate agents is heavily female of women and in dealing with the companies that we've dealt with when we get to the managing broker level or above it intends to become male not only male but like white heterosexual tall big jhad rose. And you are like the anticipation you can't tell genitals not saying that but i think she's like what four foot three. I am. one hundred pounds soaking tiny. What empowered you. What told you like you know what you should go ahead and do. This was the driving force behind that. I never told i. Couldn't i think coming from an art background coming from growing up in oregon with parents that were just like you can do anything at embarrassed to say now. I wasn't even really aware of sexism as an issue. I don't think. I mean like i had not awaken to to a lot of things until becoming an entrepreneur and then everywhere i went i had was somehow challenging. Someone's assumption but i never challenged anyone's assumption before as a small town oregon girl and you know and i think because i wasn't a business person and i was coming from this place of like. This is just like a creative expression. That i wanna do. I wanna do this. you know. i've thought about it a lot like you just described the archetype of ceo and yes was either archetype a ceo. No i may. I was a young nursing. Mother like babe on the boob but that is not what we think of when we think of like. Ceo killer. But there's i think that that's why it's so important to me in the living room. Stewart what we're doing as far as the transparency of like let's show real people real houses show how people really live. Let's show what this community is really made up of. Because one of the things that people often overlook and policies the fastest growing segment of the workforce is women with children under age. Three years old. So that's actually. What our workforce looks like. Is women nursing children. That's the fastest growing segment and with the market crash. People were suddenly figuring out like this system that we're in is not working. Because i need a safe place to go to work and be able to have my kids because i don't have the same sort of money or resources support for child care but you know we saw the repercussions that would when nike didn't get together with their with a very progressive policy for their working. Moms just they had a talent drain. You saw things pop up like pom-pom social and all these like women that used to work there as designers being like we're going to do our own thing they have literally forced us to have to go out and figure our own thing because we're not getting the support we need in our companies. And i think you know i had was offering this space. Where other women and other men to and fathers were like. I'm kind of being forced out of my company to make some choices that i need to make. That are going to provide me with some more balance and not only that. I also like so deliriously a high out of it because i have two new kids have started this business. The market has crashed. And i'm like well. I didn't have time to pay attention to the bad news. So i'm just having fun because i'm living my dreams and we're having art shows and i think people were just like infectiously attracted to the joy the in their company p birla crying over spilt milk like the markets. Hard and i'm going to get out of this now that it's not easy and it was a life force drain. They came over to me and they're like She's birthing businesses and babies a over here and she's fine. She had she flight all like okay. I've three zero five. Three seventeen sometimes wouldn't gay people start things people are like. Oh that's the thing for giving people have a tv show like that's for asian people are like that. Was there an assumption. That living room was going to be like. The women's real estate company is so funny as a few years into living room. Being up our rosser actually had more men on it percentage than many of our competitors. We really almost fifty fifty for forever. It's usually more like thirty. Seventy and a lot of the a lot of the yeah. Yeah it's changed. A lot is really changed is seeing lots of young men. in real estate. I think real states the level of professionalism or the view of it as a professional career has changed a lot and so you got more men that had been attracted industry but anyway two years. Why do people keep asking me if this company is just for women. It was like someone needed to beat me over the head and just be like they've never seen a woman on a real estate company. It was going to shoot. My brother was like what is there. Something in our brand. It's all hearts and flowers. Yeah kitty cats. I don't write in bubble letters. I just anyway realizing that we had a vendor wants come in who was selling us some kind of products and he looked around the room news. Like lot of women here but that's lots of drama. So yeah let's like. I'm gonna have to ask you to leave when living room expanded and i was looking for our second location and i started working a lot in the commercial real estate industry. We'd have conversation. I'd be there with my agent and then the other guy on the other side it'd be like so who we waiting for me or want to go home. Talk to your husband about it. And that is when i started really queuing into like. Oh wow like outside my little bubble of progressive punk rock artists. The world these wake up. There's a straight head of the thing that goes on out there. When my first play was a female and we would go to our consultations together and people would automatically assume that we were married and she was my wife and i own the company and she was my assistant and whenever i'm on any job site with any woman it is always assumed that i am the person who is in control. Yeah and i'm usually. They're just shadow and watch and it's actually the person that i with is actually running the consultations. I feel like when i opened my mouth a handbag full of rainbows pops out and people are like clearly he's gay what part of me scream cetera. Normative you forget what we look from the outside what people perceive of us obviously all these environmental things really shaped the beginning of your business that pending recession. You having kids. What kind of flopportunity as we call it. Do you think was most influential in the brain. You have now a big one just going back to the beginning. Was that going out to recruit agents. I could not look at their numbers as any indication of their future success because no one was selling anything and some of the best agents were selling even less because they were telling people hold on. This is not the year an excellent agent in my office lance mars. Who an amazing career. He was telling people hold on. He sacrificed his own sales in financial to put his clients interests. First in. that's what most of us were most great agents were doing. And so i have to look for other cues and we still recruit like this. Today has been such an opportunity for us to hold true to our values because we are obsessed with the producing. It's a like your production doesn't matter to me. I built the company having it not matter to me just like do you give back to your community. Do you coach a little league team. Like how are you invested. 'cause i know that when the market returns your community will come back in return that some more to you and those are the type of people we had an open air office says the type of people you can work in an opener office with like people think of living agents and they're just like they're the nicest they're so great to work with. They put deals together. The collaborators are problem solvers. One of the opportunities for us is that we had no other choice because the way that our physical constraints were when we started being in office met the like we had to have agents that could talk in hold themselves in a room full of other agents and it also helps coach all those other agents that were sitting in the room like hearing master like cleaner being on the phone you negotiate and coaching clients. You know they're walking away with just invaluable tools. And they're hearing years and years of experience so i think that was one thing that was a big opportunity. I think you know now with cove we're gonna see a lot of dislike. Whoa what look like. This is terrifying touring into these opportunities. And i think one of you know. One of those is finally getting people to embrace Some of the technology and so now everybody sent his zoom call. Now like relocating is not going to be such a hurdle for for agents they're going to be able to take someone through on a zoom tour and some other things where people before they had fly out and look you know and it's just like put a tremendous waste of resources miss good houses because it couldn't get their physically and so and i think the fact that we've been doing relocation services since we started really help just really help drive at least our company growth because we were one of only two firms that does ten placement services so we help people actually find rentals and that was just a product of being at that tension line being right in front of the line in front of attention person after person from big cities like new york or la or chicago. Where that's common would come in and they'd be like. Hey we want to find a rental. Can we talk to realty agents. We don't do that well in town does it. No one and i'm like if i tell someone no one does that one more time and so i called a aaron hartman and new york. City's from richard from portland. Recruited him out from brooklyn in. That's what he was doing there. And i was like we need you. I've got a line of people all day long. They're asking me who places tenants and that's still huge. Part of his business here are companies are like our children. When did you realize that lithium is no longer your company that you are living owner that become win that transition for you. I mean i think part of that has become a very conscious choice and that happened at the moment that i gave up being the person on the front lines with my clients where i was like. Okay i can either sell real estate really well or i can run a company really well but i would challenge anyone who tells me they can do both it and are people out there that do it. I don't know if they're super superhuman human. They are superhuman. But the type of strategic long term focus creative thinking to lead a company is totally different than the out fires of selling real estate the sacrifice in the willingness to kinda like ooh k. That came for me three or four years in versus. Like i can't do both and i have to decide you know what. What's my path so jumping off that path. I think that was about my third or fourth year into business as also where i started having a lot of agents leave. They're like oh whoa. You're gonna make vests are real company. This isn't a clubhouse. We're all going to hang out and be peers and friends and you're one of us you went through transition with where you're signs were brown with white writing on that kind of like a bunch of circles that were connected by lines in it and then all of a sudden one day you went through this massive rebrand red white and blue bird blue. Is that all right around the same time when that happened. Like yeah very decision for you. Yeah it was a. It was a huge decision. Because you know. When i started the coming it didn't occur to me i was going to have in a few years fifty agents like i didn't. That's not what i set out to do. I just set out to be like you know. Could i survive showing these like freaky people and houses. You know that. I work with like i didn't think i was going to attract the movement that i did. It wasn't intentional. I didn't set out initially to build the company. I bill and so i think that showed up and then i was like wow. Oh i've gotta learn to lead like i've got to have now one hundred and thirty of our hundred friend more of count assistance and team members and things like that all. We just brought on four people today. Yeah so we have a real estate company. We have a property management company and we have an all female maintenance team so we have three companies within the company so is about a community of probably with assistance notice upright about one sixty five something like that when i was designing the brand for me. I didn't think about like can you see these signs all over town. They were brown in. Portland is very hard to see brown and gray in the rain in like the font was small in you and i started having agents that were older like we can't beat the god. You're like my twenty year old is could. It's great when you're wanting. Yeah and now. I realize now that i'm wearing reading glasses. I'm like oh gosh. I didn't see it so we went through brandon. Also we at that time. I was like i want to be a great leader. Great leaders have values in missions and and a vision so i googled it determining your values and there was this list of two hundred and so. I've made photocopies. I i gave it to everybody. That was an organization probably about fifty fifty five agents at the time. We were battling with each other for two months. Because you when you're talking about fighting for what values you're going to be on the wall when you're done like people were. They brought passion everyone that helped me build. A room has brought so much love in commitment. I've been so lucky. And i think out of that. One of my biggest in business was when we got through this process. The thing that was far beyond any other words was diversity. And i felt so exposed. It is amazing and i felt terrified. What was terrified about that. i am from estacada oregon. An all white community. In rural oregon. I did not feel like. I had the chops or the leadership. I was the person to be leading company. That was telling me. Diversities are number one value. In you know and i was like i had to look at myself. I have some personal work to do. It's really scaring me. But what was so cool was like right after we did that. We had an anniversary party. I think it was our fourth anniversary party. I remember walking into the room and looking around. And i was like this is actually the most diverse group of people. I've ever been in portland in. It's not up to me. I've got fifty people. I'm gonna lean to learn from and they've told me this is important to them because it is because they're already doing the work and so i'm so thankful because my companies they called me in and right now we're in this time of a lot of people calling each other out and i'm just extremely humbled by the experience of being called in to be bigger to be called in to be greater and the second story i'll share that with joy was on there and it was like number two or three you know. It's like choi diversity. connection enjoy. Were the three big ones. And now's like really uncomfortable with that. And so i came to the morning the meeting that morning. And i'm like i dunno guys about the joy thing incurring mcgee like it was like lit her on fire. She stood up. She was like god. Damn it to know like we are here because your joy that's you that's who you represent that's why all of us came here. This is why the company was bill. And i was like oh like all of a sudden realization of like. Oh that's why. I want to kill it because i have a story that i'm not enough. That for some reason the thing that makes me so special and unique in the world as a leader is not enough that. I'm supposed to look like that other paradigm that i've been rejecting and i was still holding onto that story joy because it is something. That is a touchy feeling. More emotional thing did it feel like because it wasn't like you know one of our core priorities is our profit and loss like did it feel to female to you and therefore week. And we were believing own stereotypes. What made you push against it so hard. Because like if i were describing you one of the first things i would say. She's a very joyful person. Always happy yeah. Some over me. Email today collie lad for cairo. She actually was like. I'm a drinker. Joy juice i was laughing and laughing at it is just like anyone's ever said to me. I think it's a lot of that. And i think it's also because it's so vulnerable and as leader. David white writes about my favorite poet. White writes about this. A lot. In huey put yourself out and you can be hurt joys a place i can be hurt. And i sat with my manager once in a recruitment meeting. And i remember him telling the agent he's like what makes them different and he goes love and i was literally like rocking in my chair. I'm gonna pass out. Because i wanted to come with the stats and the performance and our years of experience and i have to sit with that. And be like yeah. That's why it hurts when people leave. That's why wake up. And i don't want people to know that you know it's just like it's love joy and when people tell me just business i might argue alive. Have you lived a moment of life. It's not we pour everything into what we do and most of us do. When i was a little boy. My parents have florus and his name was tom. He was the only gay person in my life. And tom would come over and my mom and him would talk about the silk or that they were gonna ranch because those are still. Yeah because she was fancy. And after tom with leave my mom and my dad would talk about how terrible it was that he was gay and how horrible. He was person because he was a homosexual. I have made myself a promise. That fight turned thirty years old. And i had a gay job like being a florist. That would either kill myself or stopping by school. Yeah because being gay was bad. Yeah i went to school. I got a degree in architecture. Which is a very masculine. Yeah i became a wrestler. I was a boy scout. I started in college. I was like. I'm gonna be cheerleader. I'm gonna take a little step here in like be a little bit gay rewarded. Because i was good at it. Yeah and it was not until almost fifteen years into my career as architect and general contractor. That i broke down and i said i'm really good at hump staging. I want to exploit that and use that to make money. Yeah and it wasn't until i accept myself for who. I was as a gay man that i was able to actually reach a level of success that i had never been up before i was like okay at this now that profiting off your joy profiting off of my gayness. These are things that if we were all telling our children like. Someday you're gonna find something that you love and you do you love it. You're gonna make shit money at it. Yeah and if we can figure out how to help our kids find opposition it would just. I didn't mean to make me feel bad about being gay but it was just pounded. Invite hem strong message. Strong message yeah. I think you to joys been the hardest one for me to at times defend too. I had a group of disgruntled agents. I had during our rebrand. They didn't like the new brand and change is hard. And you know what. I've listened and we got to the point where it's like okay. I have. I've done everything i can to kind of bring you with me and now i'm starting to fear walking in the door being attacked for you know whatever it is. My company gave me permission to protect my joy butler. Who am i. Who am i to get to have that. And it wasn't until i noticed my of saf. Let me know that they were bullying them to you know and that they were like starting to you know get scared when they got in the office that i was like okay. This this stops and you don't have to remember to the value of fireable offense. It doesn't mean anything win. I let them go. I was terrified because we had already had a lot of agents. Go at that point. And you know i think a lot of people knew that like the cut had been deep enough that we were going to be in trouble. It was also the moment that everyone saw that i was standing up for what we all created together and that was the moment that like our businesses took off. We had a short trench. And then you know. We won oregon ethics in business awards and and we just started getting top producers coming to us in droves because it was like all of a sudden people got it. It's the real deal. And that people stood up and said you've proven to me that you care more about our culture than profits that means something to me yet. But it's hard it's hard especially when some of these are so closely aligned with yourself because it sticking up for yourself every time we go through transition we have lost two or three really big clients but what happens is that it's kind of like shows up our tree and it gives us room to bring in like twenty new really big clients in our company grows and when you do that innovation and you think your people are gonna come with you and they. Don't you really start questioning yourself. Your hard hit by people didn't like what we did. They were used to what we used to do. They want back the old way. And now i see me going there. This is like my fifth or sixth innovation gone through. I see my employees being like. Oh my god we lost this client. We're like okay. Fine of war you going to be alright you get used to it. And that's with agents. That was something. Actually the company companies to teach a class around boundaries and it. Was you know how to have a personal life and a business life because coming from the art world. I was like these guys are crazy. They're working all the time you guys make enough money you don't you barely have to work. I mean i came into real estate like do you think i'll be able to make the same that it did at my last job which was fourteen dollars an hour you know and it was just like i got there and i was like oh this is cool but then you see the possibilities are endless to what cost and so i immediately very beginning in my career really adopted tools like my voice mail and and the way that i met with clients fucking with industry. Did i work these hours. I don't work saturdays. I hired an assistant really early on in my career. And she like i let her run with clients. I didn't feel like i had to step in. It was her job and it was interesting. Because people i got the most pushback from were not my clients. They were all like oh cool now. I know how you work. We're gonna choose to work with you. It was other agents when you mean you're not working. Well what do you do when the phone rings. And it's like that's part of my business plan is that i don't answer the phone at dinnertime. So do i. Miss a dealer to maybe. But that's that's okay like part of your part of anybody's retail business plan as they could be open twenty four hours. We teach people how to treat them you. Do you really did seem to have a level of fearlessness. What was like your secret sauce to having the determination in the ambition to stay in even when it was hard to figure out what you were about any for me. Financial stability up in security a- gives me a lot of courage. I keep my bills small. I don't buy things until i've got the money to buy them. And you know full disclosure. I was raised by grandparents that survived the dust bowl. So you know i didn't. I had a hard time buying a house. 'cause i'd never gotten alone for car taken any debt in my college or like. We just came from a family. You don't have money you don't buy and so i had no credit to go buy a house and i still do that today like cove. It hit a company. It's a there's a lot of people depending on me. And i still go down and i'll do like the worst case scenario planning and like are we safe. You know we were ready for this one with with money in the bank and reserve and we were preparing. And we're very very frugal. So i think that that's one thing that lets me be crazy. And i am the primary income provider for my family. And so i can't take a big risk and so what people are always like. Wow you're such a risk taker. So brave and they were calculated. They were small. And i didn't give up my real estate practice until living room until i really could see the point. Where like okay. This is where i'm going to be able to make this and keeping my expenses really small. And then i think that i'm really lucky to have been is raised by six grade science teacher. He's just always been curious. He's a he's a curious guy so i left in high school. I wanted to go on the grateful dead tour and live on the parking lot and he was like oh interesting i think most parents have been like hell no but he just got real curious. You know just like so you so you sell boxes of rice stream now. What's the return on that. And i never was told like. I couldn't be an artist. I never was told. I couldn't do what i wanted to do. Like they worried about my financial security. A lot i did hear would be nice if you married someone with benefit. That's not gonna happen so like a first question. Steve benefits because my parents are wondering. Yeah i had to figure out a way to provide that for for myself and my family and to me what makes me feel. The most secure is just really good relationships in the community building all support around myself belonging to organizations like the entrepreneurs organization. Where i have you know that i can come back to the hut and be like i need help. I think that a lot of people are afraid to look weak or dumb. Or less than i'm good at that you and i say this very interesting quality that if i don't understand a word in a sentence i don't know what that word means. That means. i have watched you for a couple of for ten years now. And what i found consistent about you is that if somebody is talking about something you don't understand you are not one of those people who are pretend now we'll pipe up and be like i don't get what the hell you're talking about. So you're going to have to rewind for me. I like and i think that takes a lot of courage because you are. You're really exposing yourself. And i think the perfection thing especially women. We are so hard on ourselves. And we think that i've done this so many times that you think that some sort of video game which is not like i played the first level and scored one hundred points. Now someone's going to come an escort me to the next level. And i spent so many times and this is where punk rock being a punk rock musician helped all in the world like we would be booked as the lead band and then the guy's had show up and they would just for our spot and i like excuse me like we've been on tour all month like this is my gig and so yeah but you see that happen in politics all time. I don't think like david daewoo woke up. One morning it was like am i qualified to run for mayor. No he did it but we have all of these amazing women leaders who will be like. Well i'd better attend a conference. Maybe i should get a job with the mayor as an assistant. And then i'll work my way up where i feel like oftentimes this grocer relation but just like men will jump right in one of the things that we do in our show. Is we talk about our highs and our lows gals what about your worst day in business ever. I worked at the hassen company. My best friend at the house and company was woman named diane monroe. She was a psych this age. I just loved and then eventually she came with me delivery room and then she became our leader who's our principal broker but through cancer wound up passing away. She did not want her agents to know she continued working. And the day. I had to call. Our agents are Group our leaders to let them know and it was like one of the worst and also one of like most beautiful days too because so many of those agents were like. Let me keep making phone calls for you. You know so. I was supported in loved. But it's so hard to say goodbye to someone that you worked with like that that you just loved and help shape the company and we lost an agent to covid and that was hard again. It's not just business like it is love and there is joy. And there's memories and friendship and you know whether someone leaves or moves her diet Grief your absolute best day in business. I've had a few. I'm just gonna go with this morning. We start our meetings. Every day with joy shares. And i had like a twelve minute. Joy share today. We started something called the loving room fund. All of our agents elect to give a portion of their commission through two three nonprofits that we all get together and vote on and choose together as a community and the urban gleaners aw amazing organization so they pick up food that would otherwise be thrown away and then they pick it up and then they repackage it and they send it to primarily children and the poor and and they're feeding you know. Oregon has the second worst childhood hunger in america. Urban gleaners contacted us this week. And i got to share with my agents today that we reached one hundred thousand dollars and so they're just taking what we already have just redistributing the abundance and tracy author who started urban gleaners here in portland just saw shouldn't have to raise money. Shows do anything she just has to pick up with someone else's throwing away and get it to people who need it when we started working with the organization their annual budget was one hundred sixty thousand dollars and they were feeding thousands and thousands and thousands of kids. It was like this is so efficient and so cool. It'd be became one of the organizations that we support and that to me. it just gives me chills. Because it's like had. I still been my small little company or eight or ten agents. You don't get to change the face of oregon hunger but you get a hundred and thirty people together and it's just giving little bits but together as a group in the economy of scale. It's just mind blowing what we're able to do and i just love that. I just love that. Like our growth. Anything healthy grows and that we can be part of really making significant change and it was really cool to share that today Not isaacson is the owner of living. Room t. here in portland oregon. You know where can people find you. Well living room r. e. dot com or what sizing and find all sorts of really great stuff. And then i see my just regular old name. As handles on twitter instagram we have some market update videos. And then you'll see a lot of just me and my two synchronized swimming daughters. If you ever get a chance to google chanel. There's so much interesting material out there. She is if you have a story to share. Reach out to us. You can find a spate. Archer dot com. Go to the podcast page. It's behind the art sign. Thanks for coming out to know. Thanks for having me thank you okay just awesome. She's fantastic right. Like how do you pack that much joy in this little tiny package. She's amazing. i love that. She's like this fearless email later in portland. She's so portland throwing through like authentically so portland. So it doesn't surprise me at all like when she had some of those moments where she was just like when we decided xyz to be really authentic. Destler business blow up in. It just seems like every single time that she has refined herself down to her core values. Which is what our favorite turn of phrase here on the show. Her business exploded in abundance in like things just exploded so i just love hearing about man's death. She's so sweet and so innocent and she's like this lady says she wants to drink my joy juice and i was like all. Is that a euphemism. And i wanted to say something terrible and i just held my tongue. I helped by tom. I was so proud of thank you. Now we're gonna talk about something that we love time but all the controversial stuff so we're going to those kind of floating around in like you know when things in real estate pop up in her leg should be addressed as should we not like. How do we tackle these difficult conversations. Like what are we doing you talk amongst ourselves. Mccown of like sundays will be on two different size. And sometimes we'll like. We'll actually grew with each other but like play devil's advocate one of them came up. Was this whole controversy over the name of master bedroom. In light of recent civil unrest. The black lives matter all these things. And so i kind of dug in. I was just like okay. What's really going on here is really an issue. Or is this virtue signaling right. Which is you know is. This is the thing that doesn't really matter versus a lot of racism in stomach racism. That's real inside real estate. Let's talk about. Let's talk by virtue. Signaling i what is that it just means like oh look i'm here trying to portray person hosea care. Cares about this issue. Like post a story on man's ceram about my mom reading about anti-racism or whatever but did you actually read it. You know it how are you. How very tangibly making these changes. What is what is real. What can we change really affect the core issue in not just look like we're busy with it and posting about racial issues In real estate on social media is a land mine. I mean it's a it's a it's a field of landmines. Because you go on there your post like i believe black lives matter and then every dick and harry because your friends with like everybody when you're You like you just accept friend. Requests and people can just like lob bombs you and be like. You're racist year. Hitler and like a. It's a really hard place to discussion really. Nuanced issues is social media. And so i feel like the podcast is the one place that you and i can actually discuss this stuff and express how spade and archer feels at how behind the yard seinfield's and and actually have some nuance behind it. Absolutely so this issue about master veterans came up this research and soc like well. Is this thing because i wanted to be educated right like i was look i had previous lives before being real estate. I'm learning things interior system. Now all the time and i'm just like holy crap i didn't know any of this stuff was real so maybe master bedroom was a term that as a white person that sound super races like you know. Don't call the slave bedroom. You call the master bedroom. La and i'm sleeping in my room every night totally. And so what's really interesting. Though is it seems like in some markets some builders are changing the name of master bedroom or two like primary bedroom. Instead i was interested in this is really have any kind of connotation of like an owner of a home in other people. Is this really more of like gotten a gender term master of the house like is this like about like the the man owners bedroom. What was this really about and again can be educated on this but By anyone who has better information. But what i really learned was the at the actual construction of the larger bedroom with a with a bathroom. Attached really didn't come around into mainstream until the nineteen fifties sixties seventies and. The term was used almost in anesthesiologist. Way in order to make it sound kind of more boozy At this fancy space this bigger space was for the people the couple or the person who owned the home who have the privilege of or entitled to the largest space in that home so a lot of that rebranding of spaces goes back to the leonard brothers so eleven brothers of the first guys that ever built a neighborhood. That was a suburb of the city. So after world war two We back from the war and we had cars with automobiles and suddenly we have this idea that we could commute to work. And so by commuting to work these neighborhoods started spreading out throughout the countryside and becoming suburbs and they built this town called levittown. We studied it in school and my husband actually grew up right next to levittown. When i found out that we were going back there. I was like oh. My god. I got eleven to have. This is on long island. I was so excited to go. Joe's like why. And unlike the first. I've ever this book amazing and the other brothers client amazing. They have their problems. Brothers definitely had their racial issues but they also were really cool in some respects. So when they're building this their idea was that they would sell like any gi and in order to get their hud housing fees the government actually required them to segregate the neighborhoods in levittown Who could only sell the white people in order for it to get financing through the us government. The government made it mandatory. That only white. Gi's could buy houses their letter on it that way originally but they were forced to do so by hud and it wasn't until the late nineteen seventies that hud was forced to be able to sell houses to black people and white people and not discriminate based on race. So i mean even the levittown has like incredibly racist background to. But here's some of the cool things brothers did before the lever brothers came to the scene the main space where people sat inside their house was called the parlor. So if you go. Victorian house you victorian houses described as heavy double parlors. You'd have one for men in one from sit in and when somebody died you you took their dead body and you put it in your in your parlor you lay out and you had like your shit Sitting shiva when you're jewish like your way you have your funeral like right there. The leather brothers were like man. This room is kinda like the room of the dead and they're like would've would if we have these new businesses that we could open up and we could call them funeral parlors and we use these businesses like have these dead people go lay in state and we could visit them then. We could rebrand this parlor. Instead of being the room of the data we could call it the living room. It's the room for the living. And so was the letters who had not only funeral parlours but also living rooms and levittown. We didn't have master bedroom's because it was a three. There are two and three bedroom houses with one bathroom. It wasn't until much later that levittown grew in expanded. We've tried to add a master bathrooms onto those houses. There four plans and there's only like there was something like fifteen thousand houses and leading town. There's only like four original plans of the four original housing and they're like little museums now but every single. Their house has grown over time. But they did this. Rebranding of living in the funeral parlour. And that really started to empower builders to rebrand the names of these rooms to to make them as you say more bucci more acceptable more livable. For people that were commuting back and forth and so the idea was to try and make these like little kingdoms for these people where they could go and they could live and it wasn't from the antebellum south like on plantations that it was the master who had this master bedroom in might have been the master's chamber but it wasn't ever do referred to as the master bedroom it was kind of nostalgia you'd be like you're the master of your home. You're the master of your own main. It's having a master's degree That's the way that these things are being used. It's not saying master noun. It's master adjective. And so i think Who was it that hosted that post about there are problems there racist problems in in the real estate industry. It's like people not showing black people houses that qualified for. That's a problem in the real estate industry at the word master bedroom. Not so much. Who do you remember who. That was a musician John legend john legend like just summed. It up and was like you guys. Let's concentrate on the things that are actually a problem here and so i think there are actually a couple of really interesting stories behind. Why rooms and things in houses are called things and so i'll just ramble through a couple of days when you were very very poor. This is when housing was first being put together if you were very very poor referred to as being dirt poor and what that meant. Is that your home. Did not have a foundation or floorboards. The floor of your home was dirt. And if you are that you probably work the fields. You are a farmer or farmer's assistant and the stocks of the wheat that left over after wheat caesar taken off the week berries or taken off. The stocks of the wheat are called thrash. It's just the leftover crap and when it rains at your house your your dirt floor would get very muddy and so you actually take thrash and you throw it down on the floor. And over the course of the winter the thrash would start to build up with layer upon layer upon layer and get very thick and it would start to pour out the front door and so you would take a big board and put it on the floor at the door and that door would hold the thrash that from pouring out your door. And thus that part of the door was became known as the threshold. Even though we have no thrashing houses anymore still fresh hold so thrash would also be used to make your roof. yeah and with. You always have dogs for hunting deutsche. Have tat's for your rodents. If you lived in a rural area theater flow you also have. Pets will one of the warmest places in the house to stay would be up in the thrash of the roof. You'd actually crawl in underneath that. The pets would crawl underneath. Eric and the cooking stove from the house would actually heat the roof up there. Well when it would rain really really hard the thrash would get very slippery and the cats and dogs would fall out of the roof and so it rained really hard. You would say oh. It's raining cats and dogs because literally cats dogs used to fall out of your room when it rains you much so that around. This time that people would that is around boob on plug around the same time. We had dirt floors fresh roofs and when people would die there was fear of their bodies and so they wanted to try to get them in the ground as quickly as they possibly could. And so you wouldn't have a really long three days because you're afraid you were going to contract who vanek light from them and so they throw them in. The ground realized that they were accidentally burying people live and so one of the ways that they tried to prevent from burying people alive is that they would tie a string here finger and that string would come up to the top of the gravesite and we'd be tied to a bell and if you awoke from your slumber because they weren't really sure if you'd better not you start thrashing your hands around and it would ring this little bell and you would thus be saved by the bell which is where that expression comes from well in order to be saved yes in order to be saved by the bell have to be somebody who was sitting there next to the ballot you would you would have somebody sit next to the bell for three days because i figure like if you're on the ground three days you're really dad you'd have somebody sit there for three days straight and watch the value sit there and the graveyard and so that that shift is called the graveyard shift because you have to work overnight. Bats comes from that same expression of during the plague of being saved by the bell is the graveyard shifts and like all these expressions. Come from that same exact time and it just it. Cracks is so much cepheid now out and some stuff that doesn't matter at all but it is very interesting that like a lot of the things that we still call in our house. The different names that we have for stuff still comes from micheals hundreds and hundreds of years ago and master bedroom is not one of them. Turns out i've actually really enjoyed learning more about housing and racial issues. And i've had even saw friend post something the other day about something that real estate agents will do some time. It's just like oh if you're having issues with your down. Payment came to borrow it from founding member. And i had a girlfriend like when i bought my house in asia. This to me and the answer is no. I don't have a family member to who can give me a couple of hundreds of thousands of dollars when we don't have that generational wealth and to expect that in the black community or latino community is so ridiculous in order to facilitate homeownership this country yet so stats are the lowest for black communities. And so i've really enjoyed learning some of the actual honest to god racial issues in in around housing and about which generational wealth. And i mean a lot of times when we were talking about rights of people talk about female and black and gay and trans and all of these different areas and really when it comes down to black people have it where harder than any of us because there was literally government mandates. And when you're a white person and you have had home ownership like in my family. We've have home ownership for probably fifteen or twenty generations. that's twenty generations of people building wealth consistently over and over and over again. You know my parents squandered all their money away but that has nothing to do with me. I have the opportunity and so to say that why people got head start over everybody else abso fucking lutely and have had that it's been just systematically our government has made it so that they could not own homes bats a racial problem. Well from things that don't matter like living rooms all the way the things that super super do matter like racial discrimination in housing we covered it. All we've all of our music is performed and composed by matt's you can find him at five star guitars dot com a. If you'd like to be a guest on behind the art sign. Please reach out. You can find us. At spayed dash archer dot com. Just become a podcast link kelly. It's been an absolute pleasure results. Thank you so much tina. This production of behind the yard signs brought to live in spain nurture studios speed nurture design. It seems the world's first guaranteed home stager.
What Happens If There's An 'Election Meltdown' In 2020
"From whyy in Philadelphia. I'm terry gross with fresh air. Today we talk with Richard Hasson Book Election Meltdown. Dirty tricks. Distrust is trust and the threat to American democracy. One reaction to calling a book election meltdown. Is that a little alarmist. But I'm going to own that and say yes. I'm sounding the alarm. He's alarmed about about many things. That could go wrong in the twenty twenty election or lead people to lose confidence in the results voter suppression disinformation spread by Americans and foreign adversaries. Surrey's flaws and voting technology and hacking one of the examples of a nightmare. Scenario involves a hack by the Russians of the power grid in in a swing state. which could happen on election day and could affect the vote in that state which could affect the national vote totals hasn't as a law professor and founder of the election law blog? They're Kentucky reviews. A new album from singer songwriter. Andy Schoff that's like a short story looking ahead to election day. What but if the loser of the presidential election doesn't concede can we still rely on the peaceful transition of power after a hard fought but fair elections? And what if Russia or another adversary hacks into an American cities electric grid on Election Day preventing people from voting. These are just some of the tough issues that my guest. Richard has an addresses in his new book election meltdown dirty tricks distrust and the threat to American democracy. It's all about the stresses in our election system from voting machines to voter suppression attempts to politically game. The system domestic and foreign disinformation and the hacking Harrison is a professor of law and Political Science at the University of California Irvine and founder of the Election Law blog his previous book was was titled The Voting Wars. Rick hasn't welcome back to fresh air so you write the losers of November's election may not concede and their voters might might not either. What are some of the scenarios? You're envisioning well. Lots of people. Think about the idea of Donald Trump. Not Leaving Office and You know having to be Pulled out by the military and I think that that's just one of a number of ways in which we could have a problem. You can imagine. Another scenario in which trump narrowly wins in a state like Florida. But there's A I widespread belief among Democrats that he wins a narrow election because the Florida legislature blocked implementation of a law. That was passed by voters a few years years ago. That was meant to reinforce ranch is felons or another scenario as you can imagine that. There's some kind of external shock to our system. It could be some kind of terrorist attack or some kind of cyber attack that disrupts voting. We don't have good procedures for figuring out what to do when that happens and that could lead to one or the other side feeling that the election was not conducted fairly. There's lots of ways that things could go south if Donald Trump is still in office. Yes and if he loses. Are you concerned about him. Lying for example after the two thousand sixteen election he said Hillary Clinton got three million fraudulent votes. There's no no evidence at all that that happened. He could claim something like that again. But this time around he'd be president but would have been voted out out of office so like what what happens then. Well I think that this is one of the real nightmare scenarios And that's because we've we've seen that trump has managed to convince supporters of things that are demonstrably untrue. Not only has he made false claims about voter fraud. being rampant. He's also lied for example about what he told Lester. Holt in interview about why he fired. James Comey He he's lied about so many things you know. Oh that It wouldn't be surprising for him to lie about the results of the election. If the election is very close if for example he's leading on election night in a key he state and the results end up being reversed as more votes are counted and the days past you could easily see him claiming victory and saying that he he won the election and that any votes that came in afterwards were fraudulent votes. He made those kinds of claims in two thousand eighteen involving a close Senate race in Florida. So it's certainly possible you The Obama administration feared that trump wouldn't accept a Hillary Clinton Clinton victory if if Hillary Clinton won and so the Obama Administration came up with contingency plan. Would you describe the plan. Well so the plan plan was going to be to trot out. I would say responsible. Moderate Republicans Think Colin Powell and try and bring them out and and try and say you know everyone needs to it just Except that the results were legitimate and to move on and that may have been implausible plan at the time but it's hard to imagine that president trump who who now commands over ninety percent of the Republican Party support. Those who don't like trump have left the Republican party but of those who remain. They're they're strong supporters. Are they going to listen to Colin Powell. When I brought this up with people have said well maybe this time around? It'll be George W Bush. Who would be trotted out? It's just hard to think of. Who these as you know beyond politics? Luminaries are who could convince people if trump is claiming otherwise that he really needs to leave office and to Transfer power peacefully to Democratic opponent the last time there was a contested election in two thousand and it was settled in the Supreme Court In Favor of George W Bush. The voting recount was halted in Florida. Sandra Day O'connor who was a Supreme Court justice at the time in voted in in favor of stopping the recount and Florida and thereby handing the victory to George W Bush said she later regretted. That vote And you point out that. The Supreme Court is seem so politicized now if an election decision was settled by the Supreme Court with the American public. DOC accept it so I think that there are reasons to believe that if the Supreme Court on a five to four vote sides with trump in a disputed election the Democrats would have a hard time accepting it and I think that's true for two reasons first back in two thousand when we had Bush versus Gore and and the court divided five five to four between liberals and conservatives among those liberals were two Republican appointed justices John Paul Stevens David suitor. This time around. All the concert insertive on the court were appointed by Republican presidents. All the liberals on the court were appointed by democratic presidents. And so I think we tend more now than ever to think. Think of the Supreme Court has a partisan institution not just one that is ideologically divided but divided along party lines and second and more specifically your member. That President Obama nominated Merrick Garland to replace Justice Antonin Scalia who passed away while President Obama was an office and Mitch. McConnell denied a hearing for Merrick Garland many people on the democratic side. Believe that Neil Gorsuch who ended up taking that seat was not entitled to that seat that it was a stolen stolen seat. And so if the deciding vote is cast by Neil Gorsuch. Then that's an indication that Mitch McConnell has in effect stolen the presidential election after stealing stealing the Supreme Court seat. I think that's how many Democrats would look at things if we came down to the Supreme Court back in two thousand after the disputed election justice. Scalia was famous for saying that Democrats should get over it and in fact the country pretty much did people are still sore about how Bush versus Gore war ended up coming out People remember that decision but the country pretty much moved on and now there's a polling indicating that views of the Supreme Court really differ by I party and and I think increasingly as the Supreme Court issues more conservative decisions Democrats are going to see its legitimacy as more and more suspect what do you think are some of the realistic concerns about the election being fair the presidential election. That's coming up well. So there's the issue of perception exception and the issue of reality. You know. There are certain kinds of external things that could be done To try to manipulate public opinion as we saw the Russians sends do in the two thousand sixteen election when it came to social media as well as the leaking of materials. So what's going to happen. If Joe Biden is the nominee and all of a sudden Barista documents start appearing Some of those documents as we know from a recent French election that might be leaked could include false documents. Let's I so. These are the kind of external threats that could cause people to believe that the election was not conducted. Fairly there could be machine breakdowns. There's the Transition to new voting rules new voting machines that could cause some problems at the polling places that could cause some disputes about how to deal with the recount account And then there's all of this talk about voter fraud and voter suppression. There's this is going to be the first election since the nineteen eighties where the Republican National Committee is not going to be subject to a court order a consent decree which barred the party from engaging in certain so-called ballot security measures at polling places. This means that in this election president trump as he tried to do in the twenty sixteen election could organize people to engage in so-called poll watching activities in democratic and minority areas What we saw in the nineteen eighties before the consent decree were off duty? Police officers in uniform patrolling polling places. I mean there's all kinds of things that could happen. I don't know which if any of these are going to happen but just like with a nuclear meltdown at a power plant. Even if there's a very small risk that something something terrible could happen. You need to have contingency plans. You need to do things to try to minimize the chances that something terrible is going to happen. The subtitle of your book election meltdown includes dirty tricks. And I'm wondering where the impeachment charges fit for you in In terms of of your concerns about the presidential election I mean impeachment is based on the charge that trump tried to withhold military aid to Ukraine which it needs to to defend itself against the Russians to withhold the eight unless Ukraine's president agreed to investigate Joe Biden trump's political rival. So does that count to you as a dirty trick trek and if you know if in fact it's true yeah. I think there are two lessons to be learned from payment for the twenty twenty election. One is what you've alluded to. which which is that? The president has repeatedly invited foreign interference right. This wasn't the first time that he invited foreign interference. He asked the Russians to hack into Hillary Clinton's server He even when he was being questioned early on in the Ukraine story about the process invited China Anna to leak dirt on Joe Biden so one concern is about the president not only taking important steps to prevent foreign interference in the elections but also to encourage encourage it. But the other lesson that I've learned From watching impeachment is that you have a a number of Republican senators. Were willing to simply lie about. What the facts show? There's they're they're willing to lie about what are undisputed facts about what the president said when he said it about What he was trying to do in the Ukraine and so to the extent that we expect that people are going to engage in hard fought battles are going to do so honestly? I think the impeachment shows there are some people who are willing to lie about the basic facts if that's going to give them political advantage and that to me is just as concerning as the attempt to get the Ukrainians to manufacture or produce dirt on a political rival of the presidents. Do you think president trump has stood in the way a of protecting elections from foreign interference. His chief-of-staff Mick Mulvaney told Kirsten Nielsen when she was The head of the Department of Homeland Security not to bring up foreign interference in trump's presence because trump equates that with questioning the legitimacy of his his own presidential victory the. I'm very concerned that the president is not leading on this issue. He has invited interference from the Ukrainians from the Russians from the Chinese. I mean that that if that's not sending a signal that more interferences allowed. I'm not sure what would be. He's been so weak on this one of the examples given the book of a nightmare. SCENARIO INVOLVES A up a hack by the Russians of the power grid in the Democratic city like Detroit or Milwaukee in a swing state which could happen on election day and could affect the vote in that state which could affect the national final vote totals. This should be considered an act of war and we WANNA president out there who is being actively warning the Russians and others others the Iranians and anyone else that might try to interfere in our elections that it is completely unacceptable and that American elections have for Americans to decide not only do we not have that leadership from the president. We have the president actively undermining that message and so while I think there are many good people in the federal government who are working on issues of election cybersecurity and working on other issues. The leadership from the top is really problematic. And the idea that Mick Mulvaney had to kind of keep this information from the president so he wouldn't get agitated agitated about it. I think that's a really sorry state of affairs you know. We were talking about the possibility of a contested election. You point out. There's a there's a good chance. We will not not know the result of the presidential election on election night Tell us one of the major reasons why we might not know that. Well remember that We don't conduct a single election on election day. We actually conduct something like nine thousand elections. We have a really decentralized. The system in so votes have to be counted in counties or sub-county levels and then aggregated the state level to finally produce the numbers that will Tell us Who has won each state which then is relevant for the Electoral College? Will there've been some shifts in how some of the states are counting their votes. I think most notably here I would look to Pennsylvania Pennsylvania until this most recent election cycle did not allow people to vote by absentee ballot without an excuse for example apple. You're you're ill or you're out of the country doing military service now. Anyone can get an at an absentee ballot. That's the way it is in lots of states but it wasn't that way in Pennsylvania so in Pennsylvania. You no longer have to give a reason you can say. I want an absentee ballot. That's right that's how it's been California for as long as I've been voting here. That's you know. Some states have all vote by mail but in Pennsylvania and some other states that was not really an option Unless you had an excuse and now you can do that but it takes a wild to count absentee ballots while to process them and you have to for example. Make sure that the person who has submitted the absentee ballots that their signatures match the other way of verifying their identity that they've filled out their ballot correctly. Before it can be counted you may remember in twenty eighteen. There were a number of congressional races in Orange County California where the Republicans were ahead and then over the weeks. That followed Democrats eventually. took the lead Paul Ryan the former speaker of the house called this bizarre and suggested that there was something nefarious going on the president made similar kinds of comments and yet the problem was just one of administration and it takes a long time to counties absentee ballots much longer than it takes to count ballots cast on election day. which are cast on machines that can pretty quickly aggregate those votes and so it could well be as a story in the Philadelphia Inquirer Recently suggested that president trump could be ahead in in Pennsylvania on election night but there could be enough outstanding ballots especially from big cities like Philadelphia. Where it's GonNa take a day or two or longer before for the final vote counts come in and those late counting ballots? At least as we've seen in recent years tend to shift towards Democrats and we saw aw in two thousand eighteen in the contested race between the incumbent Florida. US Senator Bill Nelson Against Rick. Scott that president trump criticized ballots. That were counted after election. Day He said must go with election night which which was kind of a crazy thing to say because saying that would disenfranchise a lot of military voters. Whose ballots may not arrive by election day? So I certainly think that if president trump is ahead on election night in a key state like Pennsylvania. He's going to say. Stop the counting. I've won all. The other. Ballots are illegitimate. At least. That's the pattern that we saw in two thousand eighteen. You referred to this earlier you know. A lot of people are concerned about the Voting Machines being HAP for registration. Rolls being hat. You're also concerned about Election Day being hacked by Russia or another foreign adversary for instance hacking the electric grid of a big city There's no nobody has contingency plans for that do they. Well you know. There are some contingency plans I asked the secretary of State of Michigan Jocelyn Benson about this Ah You know this nightmare scenario. And she said you know polling places have of paper ballots provisional ballots. That could be used the event of an emergency. But I think you know if there's a citywide blackout. I that means that lots of people are not getting to the polling place right so even if everyone who got to the place got a provisional ballot how many people if the you know the buses and trains are not running and the lights are out how many people are not going to vote. I mean it would be Something that certainly would affect the kind of turnout. You'd see in a city on election day. I mean everything would be mayhem. That happened right and I think you know what we don't have our good rules for dealing sailing with either a terrorist attack or natural disaster that could affect an election outcome in a presidential election. It's much easier to rerun an election or take some other kind of remedial measure when you're talking about a local election you may remember back A while ago you had the al Franken Norm Coleman Hohmann race where it was very close in Minnesota and they did a very careful meticulous recount that I think a lot of people think was kind of the gold standard. It took nine nine months and there was no senator from Minnesota in that seat for nine months. We can't tolerate that for. US President so you know we're really alien uniquely bad situation if you have a state that is crucial to Electoral College. That faces something like either a natural disaster or some kind of cyber attack or terrorist attack on election election day. And so I really fear that I and and you know it's. It's the kind of thing that really requires preparation. Well before election on day it requires the kind of cyber security measures and it requires. I think a president sending a signal that this kind of behavior from another country would be unacceptable. You just being a catastrophes or these concerns we really ought to be taking seriously right now right so oh one reaction to calling a book. Election Meltdown. Down is that it's a little alarmist but I'm going to own that and say yes. I'm sounding the alarm even if there's a small risk of this happening It's still now twenty years After Bush versus Gorby haven't learned our lesson at you know an election. Meltdown is a real possibility. Even if it's a small one we really need to take precautions. There's something called the election administrators prayer Lord that let this election not be close because when it gets close you start looking at all of the problems that can occur and so so it's a low probability events because not every election is close but this election could well be close. Given how polarized we are given how evenly divided. We seem to be and given how. How hot everything is right now surrounding election? My guest is Richard Hassen author of the new book election meltdown dirty tricks distrust and the threat to American democracy is a professor at the University of California Irvine Law School and founder of the election law blog. We'll talk more after a break and Ken Tucker will review a new album by singer songwriter. Andy Schoff the songs. Tell a story this is fresh air support for NPR and the following message. Come from all birds your quest for a naturally healthy and well balanced life drives a lot of your decisions. What you put on your body is as important as what you put in it for you? And for the planet all birds shoes are made from premium natural materials like Z Q certified Merino wool and Eucalyptus fibers. Making them. Something you can feel good in and good about find your perfect pair today at all. BIRDS DOT COM. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Hassen author of the new book election meltdown dirty tricks Rick's distrust and the threat to American democracy. It's all about the stresses on our election. System from voting machines voter suppression attempts to politically game him. The system domestic and foreign disinformation and hacking Hassen is a professor of law and Political Science at the University of California Irvine and founder founder of the election law blog because our elections are decentralized and every state and then you know counties they have their own rules and their own people overseeing the election and their own voting booths You point out that also means that there's thousands thousands of different opportunities and places to hack that it actually the decentralized I mean I guess you could argue either side you know at the decentralized election system is less or leaves us more vulnerable to hacking. With which side do you think is true. Well if we had a popular vote election right. So we're choosing the president by whoever gets the largest number of popular votes while then Decentralisation might make sense because then if you have some. I'm kind of hacker problem in one place. It wouldn't be enough to sway the outcome but we don't vote like that. We vote with the Electoral College. And so if you think about the fact that in Wisconsin is Constan Pennsylvania and Michigan. It was something like eighty thousand votes. That was the difference between Clinton and trump combined across those three states. You would only only me to hack in the one of the most vulnerable places to potentially change the outcome of that election. What are the most vulnerable part of our electoral system to hacking? Well we one of the things we saw in twenty sixteen was that the Russians sniffed around voter registration databases in lots and lots of states. It's and you know we. We have not been given all the information but there was at least some attempts to change some of the records that and those attempts were caught Messing with the voter order. Registration database could be a real problem. If for example people go to the polling place. They're checked in through what's called an electric pole book where people In the the poll workers look up the names of the people to make sure that they're eligible to vote and their names. Don't appear I mean this could cause all kinds of problems But there's also the concern about voting voting machines themselves and I mentioned that Pennsylvania's got new rules on absentee ballots. They're also going to be one of a number of states where at least in part the state they're rolling out new voting machines and as a whole new set of voting technology. That's out there now. Some of these Some of the new technology uses uses bar codes to print out on a piece of paper the choices of the candidate and there's all kinds of disputes now among among computer scientists election integrity advocates and others over whether these new so-called be MD machines are secure enough For counting one one issue is You know if you have a bar code on there are some Qr Code. It's not something the human being can read right. It's just a a series of lines and you don't know who that vote is for. While the candidates choices are also going to be printed on that ballot but one question is going to be. Are People going to check to make sure that those ballots printed the name correctly and in the event of a recount. What would control the bar code or the names on the ballot and given how much suspicion there is now about hacking and about the lack of safeguards Across all of technology. I think a lot of people are worried that if we're going to rely on bar codes that are gonna be counted by machines that are produced by Companies that are for the most part private for profit companies that there's not enough security in that kind of system him when it comes to counting votes. That's why many people have called for hand marked paper ballots. You know. Fill out the scantron like you're going to take the sat test that that ad is the best form of The Best Format for voting. Because then you can look and see whether someone bubbled in that Circle for trump or for his democratic opponent a lot of people are concerned about voter suppression in this election. What's one of the most important new developments in voter suppression? There are two places where It might be made Harder to participate in the process. One is through onerous voter registration rules and the other is through Rules that apply to counting your vote on election day and we've seen attempts to try to make both of those more difficult We've seen for example in the state of Kansas. They a Passed a law. That said that if you wanted to register to vote you had to provide documentary proof of citizenship. This kind of show me your papers. Law says that if you want to vote you have to come up with a naturalisation certificate or birth certificate. That's a pretty onerous standard and in fact. We know that In the state of Kansas before a federal court put it on hold thirty thousand. People had had their voter registration suspended because they weren't Able or hadn't had the chance to produce that piece of paper and you know that was Supposedly a step that was necessary to prevent non-citizen voting but yet we know From a series of cases and controversies that I describe in election meltdown that the incidents of non-citizen voting is very very small So one place is voter registration. The other is voting on election day. And we hear a lot about voter identification laws right. We have to show your ID at the polling place. A lot of the social science literature shows that voter. Id does not seem to affect turnout very much or at least not as much as many Democrats tend to believe if I think that's for a few reasons number one the people without ID are probably less likely to vote Just because Some without ideas likely to be at the lower end of the socioeconomic canonic spectrum and they're therefore also unlikely to vote but also because there were lots of measures taken to try to ensure that those who don't have the these get the ideas and time for Election Day and court suits have softened these laws and so many states because of a court order if you don't have an id you might be able to vote vote by Writing Affidavit showing Saying this is who I am and and under penalty of perjury. I'm allowed to vote. So we have these kinds of procedures in place. One of the things that we've seen though with voter. Id Laws is there's there's lots and lots of confusion which itself can be demobilising so some people might not be showing up at the polls because they think they don't have the right kind of idea but they actually do. That may be just as important that kind of effect of Law People thinking that they can't comply with the law or people. Afraid to sign an affidavit under penalty of perjury so lots of the ways that these things are implemented really really effects of the elections. Let's talk about what's happening in Florida. Florida is a key state in the presidential election a recent voter initiative. You says that people who are ex felons can now vote and that in franchises like tens of thousands tens of thousands sounds of people are thinking it's up to a million but okay okay the number right. So that's a very significant number state like Florida which is key the key state in the presidential presidential election but the right of ex-felons to vote has been subsequently restricted which explained the restriction short. So the question is whether they're under amendment four which passed by a on a bipartisan basis by Florida voters Republicans Democrats Supported it. The question is What do you have to do in order to show that you've completed? Your sentence. Might not just be that. You've finished serving jail time and probation. But what if you have fines and it turns out that there's no single repository of information in Florida as to whether if you were a felon you still had to pay fines. Or fees court costs things things like that and Both the Florida legislature. And now the Florida Governor and the Florida Supreme Court have all gotten involved to try to you. Say That unless you've paid all of these fines you cannot be eligible to cast a ballot and you have to fill out a form when you are are an ex felon Under penalty of perjury. Saying I've got no more fines or fees and yet there's no way to actually know if that's true you might not know of all of the fines or fees that could be against you and so there's litigation in both state and federal court to try to make sure that this this amendment for is actually going to be implemented in a way that will allow ex-felons who've completed their senses to be able to register and to vote on election day in November. The way you're describing it it would be risky to vote. Well that's right because if if you you you you might think that you've paid all your fees and fines but there's no way you can go to a state database and confirm that as you sign under penalty of perjury. That you don't have any. Maybe maybe Oh a twenty dollar court fee from Ken Years Ago Yeah you could be putting yourself in legal jeopardy and so That's why the federal lawsuit is trying signed to have this affidavit requirement thrown out and there'd be some changes so that people will not get themselves caught up in the legal system again for trying to Exercise their constitutional right to vote. Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more if you're just joining us my guests Richard Hassen. He's the author of the new book. Election melt down dirty tricks distrust and the threat to American democracy. He is a professor of law and Political Science at the University of California Irvine Law School. We'll we'll be right back. This is fresh air. Hey it's Guy Ross here host of how I built this from. NPR and on our latest episode. How Jimmy Wales started an online encyclopedia? Mike Lapierre as a side project and watched it grow into one of the biggest sites on the Internet wikipedia. Listen now my guest is Rick Hassen. He's the author of the new book. Election meltdown dirty tricks distrust and the threat to American democracy. He's also the founder of the election law blog and he's written extensively about election security and election law. Let's talk about this information in the election. We saw a lot of that. Certainly in the two thousand sixteen presidential election on social media. You point out in your book that this information social media is not illegal. 'cause it doesn't come under campaign finance law So what does that lead you to think about If we need any kind of legislation that outlaws intentional disinformation to sway an election. So if you think about what the Russians didn't twenty sixteen much of what they did did not violate violate campaign finance law. Because as you said they didn't Say explicitly at least most of the time. Vote for vote against a candidate. There were a few vote for Jill Stein ads but a lot of it was Hillary Clinton as a Satan which is not a call for her to be defeated in office right because as to be more explicit than that a lot of it was just provoking some people on issues from immigration to gay rights to race relations in the country? One of the biggest sites where they put some of their greatest energy was into a black activists website which was trying to demobilize African American voters and convince them that Hillary Clinton didn't care about their interest. You should just stay home right. This kind of demobilizing activity. Well what we saw by twenty seventeen is that we didn't need the Russians to engage in this activity. We saw kind of parallel activity going on in the twenty twenty seventeen. US Senate race. This was to replace Jeff sessions who became the attorney general out. We saw forces supporting the Democrat. Doug Jones but not Jones himself self against Roy Moore the controversial Republican candidate Trying to suppress moderate Republican votes for example. By putting out this this information that A group of fundamentalist baptists supported The banning of alcohol in the state of Alabama and They supported Roy Moore. And you know the idea was convince. These moderate Republicans to stay home so much of this is not not even misinformation. A A lot of it is just trying to rile people up people upset the mobilize people and I think it's really hard to think about what kind of law we could have. That could be passed to deal with with misinformation. You Know K.. Candidates politicians political entities have been lying For as long as we've had elections and would you really want to trust for example president trump to decide what counts fake news. Right do we want to give this to a federal agency. I think because of the First Amendment you know we really want to have a a rigorous and Full throated debate about the issues of the day. And when you start having the government deciding what's true and what's not true that that's problematic and so I don't think at least in terms of domestic Misinformation Domestic Mesic lying. That really. We can do much about it. Aside from when the statements are defamatory or their statements about how the election itself was run. I think you you could have a federal law for example that would ban People for making false statements about where to vote how to vote went to vote those kinds of things. What are two or three of the major changes? You'd like to see an our election system well for talking long term. I think I would move to national elections look the way. Most countries Advanced Democracies think Australia UK Canada countries. That we kind of think of as is our Peer Countries If you think about those countries they all have national voting systems. Where civil servants who are not partisans are running the election and the voting machinery is the same? If you go anywhere in the country Things are much more streamlined. And they're simpler. I would do that. I would also have universal voter registration so every voter when she turns eighteen gets registered to vote and gets a unique voter registration number. That stays with her for her entire life. I think that kind of system And I'd have a national voter. Id Card where people could use their Their thumbprint if they prefer rather than they are Yeah I di in order to vote I mean I would just have a totally different system. It would be much more centralized it would be much less politicized than the system. We have now. That's long-term I wrote about that back in two thousand twelve in the voting wars a book we talked about some time ago. I in this book election meltdown. I'm concerned concerned about the next ten months. I you know I've got some long term solutions but the question really is what can we do to ensure that American democracy can survive the twenty twenty elections. I'm thinking about triage right now. Not long term solutions to tell us what your triage issues are. Well so you know it depends on who you're talking about so I'd say number for one We need to the media needs to have a an important role in educating people about vote counting in not calling elections early. I'm not calling the prematurely. Until they're convinced that enough votes have been counted in educating voters. About how long the process takes I think American American the American public going to be really sick and tired of the twenty twenty election by the time we get to November and going to want an instant result and yet they people only to be prepared. That it's going to take a week or two So that's I think at the top of the list for the news media at the top of the list for state and local officials. It's it's finding those weak links. It's having contingency plans that are in place to make sure that the election's going to be smoothly run especially in swing states especially if there are internal extra forces that tried to disrupt the election and having plans for post election day for Giving out clear clear. Transparent information about how the vote counting process is going to take place So I think that's really a step that election ministration to take and and I say third behind the scenes there needs to be a tremendous amount of cyber security work to make sure that we don't have the kinds of disruptive packs of our infrastructure or are voting technology that could affect the outcome of election or just as important caused people to think that the election outcome MHM has been manipulated. Even if it hasn't so one of the things I worry about and tell me if you think this is worth being concerned about say there's an election. A winner is declared heard. It seems to be an accurate count. We find out a week or a month or a couple of months later that there were a significant number of votes. That were uncounted or or that there was a hack that Distorted the vote. Count What do we do then do? We overall overrule the election. If the new results contradict the original results well see you may remember that in twenty eighteen. There was a dispute over the ninth congressional Russia's disgrace in North Carolina where there was a significant evidence of ballot tampering with absentee ballots. And in that case the election board refused to accept they results and required a new election and that new election took place some months later. So if we're dealing with a state or local election we do have procedures in place in lots of states when an election is marred by fraud or some kind of a major problem for having a Redo of an election. The problem is on the presidential scale. So it's much more difficult when you started specializing in election law. Did you foresee the lack of confidence in the election system. That you're seeing today today. Well not only did not see that when I started in the mid nineteen nineties I recall writing a blog post in January of two thousand nine when the President Obama was inaugurated taking over from President. Bush George W Bush and I remarked in the blog. Post about how I thought it was just a great testament to American democracy that nobody gave any thought to the fact that here you had a conservative Republican handing power over to a Liberal Democrat and Bush. The Obama were very different from each other and yet Bush showed tremendous grace in handing over power. You know they were good wishes. It was You know said something that we take for granted and we should not take for granted and I think that was two thousand nine right so it's about a decade later and things have deteriorated so much Part of that. That is president trump. But it's not only president trump. It's the greater polarization. It's the external. Meddling it's the fact that You know twenty years after Bush versus Gore are. We still haven't gotten our act together as a country to have a rational system for running. What is you know? Kind of a big operation aside from the Going to war or conducting the census that we do as a country. Rick hasn't thank you so much for coming back to fresh air. It's been a pleasure. Richard Hassen is the author of the new book election meltdown. After we take a short break Ken Tucker will review a new album of songs that plays like a short story. This is fresh air support for for. NPR comes from whyy presenting the pulse. PODCAST that takes you on adventures into unexpected corners of health and science plastic in the guts of deep sea creatures crying after anesthesia building. Your own Internet. Each episode is full of fascinating stories and big ideas the pulse available. Where you get your podcasts or at whyy dot org? Hi It's Terry Gross inviting you to check out our new online archive collecting forty years of fresh air interviews and reviews. You can hear my interviews with people like David Bowie aretha Franklin Johnny Cash. John Updike Tony Morrison searched for names. You're interested in make a playlist for yourself or friends at fresh air archive dot org. That's fresh air archive dot org record. Ken Tucker Hucker has a review of the new album. By the Canadian singer-songwriter Andy Schoff called the neon skyline. It's a concept album whose lyrics tell one story for the length of the collection Schaaf wrote produced and performed everything on the album. Here's CNN's review colon two quarterbacks nine until what's going on he said no plans wouldn't mind holding going to be washing lessons away in. The neon skyline is an album. But it's also a short story over the course of eleven songs. Andy Shaath presents himself as a lonesome first person narrator who goes to his neighborhood bar thinking about his long gone ex girlfriend girlfriend judy and how they broke up he runs into a couple of Powell's they ordered drinks and one friend tells him his ex's back in town a few moments later. Judy walks into the bar complications. Ensue seems shooting known then determined Do things do shooing away. Do Impose Andy Shafts sings and plays everything on the album and with his chalky voice and intimate instrumentation. The results could have been self conscious Precious the very definition of twee but schoff has some things going for him. Was that the story. He's telling while slight is also universal vercel. Admitting to oneself that you screwed up a relationship well that's relatable and so as obsessing about the past and so is the experience of coincidence that uncanny moment when the person you've been thinking about suddenly appears before you Shaath captures it. Well so clean. Clean Drunkenness and chivalry I roll the door open. Little bears through she says thanks to me in a British accent and she absolutely says Moore was supposed to be. I say sorry four different. She says the jury. I'm going to quote a passage. I like from that song uncalled try again. It's shafts scenes. Somewhere between drunkenness and charity. She puts her hand on the sleeve of my coat. She says I've missed this breath. I Say I know I've missed you. She says I was actually talking about your coat. That's a lovely bit of writing a brief paragraph. That would hold hold up well if you read it on the page as part of a novel in order to keep a listener engaged with the unfolding story. He's telling Shaath has opted to take some risks for example. The lyrics don't rhyme for the most part and while he has a real gift for writing. Catchy choruses the one on try again is a Doozy Shaw L.. Frequently chooses a loose more conversational approach. You can hear what I mean on. Another song called dusk kids so lear screen whereas in we in coronation. Same though what please go. SCISSOR was reading these this kid there were two years old recalling best. Could you imagine if there was. You can't rose. Who says if you love? Did they say what happens in between in the end. The neon skyline is a concept album. Him that makes you realise. They don't make them like this very much anymore. Lonely Guy Singer songwriters ranging from Paul Simon to Harry Nilsson count among Andy Shops predecessors. Yes but for most listeners. In twenty twenty. I think he's going to come across as something. Utterly New Kentucky reviewed Andy Shafts new album the neons skyline tomorrow on fresh air. My guest will be journalists. Kim Gu toss who covered the Middle East for the BBC for twenty years and grew up in Lebanon on during the civil war. She's written a new book called black wave. Saudi Arabia Iran and the forty year rivalry that unraveled culture religion and collective selective memory in the Middle East. A hope. You'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our Technical Director and engineer as Audrey Bentham our associate associate producer for digital media. Is Molly Seavy Nesper. Roberta shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross Jeans Whole Ms Uh fall to you Lisa. There's a new for me. Yeah I think we both know that would be
Constitutional Issues in Voting Rights Today
"I'm jeffrey rosen. President and ceo of the national constitution center and welcome to we the people a weekly show constitutional debate. The national constitution center is a nonpartisan. Nonprofit chartered by congress to increase awareness and understanding of the constitution among the american people as congress continues to debate new voting rights spills and as the states pass new voting rights bills. We are convening on the people today. Two of america's leading experts on voting rights to teach us about the political and constitutional questions that they raise. Rick hassen is chancellor's professor of law and political science at the university of california irvine. He also blogs at election law blog and served as an election analyst for cnn and twenty twenty his most recent book which we've been privileged to discuss on we. The people is election meltdown. Dirty tricks distrust and the threat to american democracy. Rick it is wonderful to have you back on the show. Great to be back with you and derek. Muller is professor of law at iowa college of law where his research focuses on election law especially on the role of the states in the administration of federal elections. Professor muller has taught at penn state law notre dame law school and pepperdine caruso law. Derek thank you so much for joining. No thanks for having me back. Please tell the people listeners. What is going on in the states. You've described two separate categories of voting rights bills of those dealing with what you call a election subversion and Voter suppression Tell us about those categories. Sure while so. I think the first thing to say Which will become obvious as dark. And i have this discussion. Today is fat. American elections are very decentralized so unlike most other advanced democracies with there's a national body that runs elections of the united states has a history of state and especially local election administration so when we run a presidential election we really running something like ten thousand simultaneous elections. At which makes things complicated. It means the rules are different. It means there's division of authorities. There are some rules. Some federal rules that apply because the constitution gives congress the power to set rules for a congressional elections so their rules about registration for example states. Localities can't change states. Have rules about how A ballots are going to be distributed and counted and some power devolved to counties and those counties than actually administer the elections those the ones who find the poll workers. And are there the people you turn your ballot into and so In the aftermath of the very disputed twenty twenty election with donald trump claiming falsely that the election was marked by irregularities and that there was a great problem with fraud. What we've seen is that there have been a host of New proposed laws that deal with voting Some of these laws make it easier about some of these laws. Make it harder to vote. Hundreds of these laws have been proposed by republican. Legislators have been following the lead of Former president trump in saying that the election was stolen that there are at least concerns but how the election was wrong. And they've proposed laws meant to either prevent fraud or promote voter confidence. We can have a discussion later on with actually do that. But if you look at the laws overall you can't really generalize for example. There's been a lot of discussion about the georgia. Lava georgia a lot of things. Some of those things. I think are good. Some of those things. I think are bad But as you mentioned Within the category of bad I think you can subdivide that into two parts one kind of traditional voter suppression and the of making it harder. For people to register to vote there was a famously s. georgia law has a provision. That says you can't give water to voters online off. We're waiting to vote unless you are at an election official and you're directing them to self service water which seems like a kind of very strict rule for people who might be waiting in long lines. Maybe those people are in poorer areas. Maybe they're more likely to be democrats. That's at least the story that democrats tell about what's wrong these laws but cutting back on the period of early voting cutting back on the time between the the first round election runoff. So these are things that some people think are meant to make it harder to vote up at the other kinds of provisions are those and i think here I have a greater concern. Our provisions that will further politicize the process of counting ballots and of deciding how elections are run so brand burger. Who's the secretary of state of georgia republican who stood up to trump who would not manufacture eleven. Thousand seven hundred. Eighty votes is trump had asked for in order to flip the election results in georgia. He's now been cut out in this bill from any role on the election board. He now has a nonvoting role on the board. And he's going to be replaced by someone appointed by the republican legislature. That legislature Also gave this This new person in the board the ability to take over up to four county election boards for months at a time. And there's a thought that this might be used to try to say overtake the fulton county election board where a heavily democratic where atlanta is In order to manipulate how votes are going to be counted and this really is something. I never thought we would worry about the united states which is making sure that we have rules in place. So that the way that votes are counted as done in a transparent and fair way and so most of these laws that have been proposed have not passed. Were watching all of them summer concerning than others. I think i'll probably stop there. Thanks so much for that dirt. What's your response. Rick said that laws that are supposedly designed to discourage voter fraud or prevent voter. Confidence can actually have the effect of either making it harder to vote. Or politicize the counting. Ah ballots by manipulating the way. Votes are counted Would you accept or reject that characterization and how would you describe the laws designed to discourage voter fraud or encourage voter confidence. Yeah a lot of the proposed changes in laws especially places like georgia iowa florida things that have been enacted have particularly targeted absentee ballots. I think that was one of the strongest If you will memes that was pushed around in the twenty twenty election President trump and his supporters were very skeptical of absentee voting. Really strongly encouraged in person voting. democrats were really strongly. Supportive of absentee voting. And this had an interesting dynamics. Twenty twenty eight as sort of cross overlapped with notions of The severity of the pandemic or the the risks that are attended with that or changes. That courts were making accommodate voters in a time of the pandemic on. So it's not clear. How many of these. Things have such salient going forward is. These legislatures are addressing. Absentee ballot concerns. And then there's the empirical question at the back end that rules that change the ability of voters to request an absentee ballot or how absentee ballots are verified before they're counted. They're going to have some kind of impact that we don't know if it says something fairly marginal that really is perhaps affecting some of them were arabia's balance that might have been cast or the occasional rare outright instances of fraud or how much it's going to have a broader fact on the population so to take a couple of examples. We have georgia some rules. That push back the deadline by which you can request an absentee ballots at a four days before the election. You now have the requested. Eleven days before the election. It was one of the more popular elements of the georgia. Bill by public polling concerns but undoubtedly it had a partisan divide as far more republicans support than democrats and the argument on the one side for the georgia. Legislature is look. We want people to request about four days before the election where the likelihood of their ability to cast. The ballot is limited. We need to set that deadline a little bit earlier. And if you can't put in an absentee ballot request early than show up in person to vote or another one in georgia was that signature verification of a sloppy outmoded method of verifying voters identity. And so the thought was especially given some of the sloppiness or the concerns about the appearance of it in twenty twenty. Let's instead require voters to put their driver's license number some other sort of state Form of identification to identify who they are will use that as of your affiliation method can sort of a partisan divide about the appropriateness of that. Georgia has voter identification law already in place and so this might run along with it And so then the question is how much of an impact is that going to have. How many voters are going to be unable to cure their ballot by identifying themselves up front. And it's not drive them to in person voting and so. There's a theme here that that voters still have that opportunity to participate to show up on election day. It's simply tightens up. Some of the rules for absentee voting. I think it's again. It's an open question. What what are the kinds of voters that are using that absentee voting historically. We might have thought it was the elderly and military voters. And there's a reason why. Republicans strongly supported extending absentee rules. Those demographics in the nineteen eighties and nineties And now there's a perception especially given the pandemic and twenty twenty that democrats. Were far more likely to use absentee voting than republicans although some of the empirical literature i think suggests that that's not even necessarily the case as it played out in terms of overall turnout into twenty twenty election So on the one hand you can say these rules. They certainly tighten up some aspects of the absentee balloting system. That could have an impact on voters at the same time. We can say well if the normative goal is we want people the sort of house or does As much information as possible to have a reliable secure easy to apply balloting system in the absentee process. And if not to show up on election day Driving voters to election day. If that's the case and i think remains in question about whether or not that goal will be achieved. Thanks so much for that rick when it comes to absentee ballots They're said that there's a case that some of them might in fact increase voter confidence and discourage fraud. D think that there is a case to be made for any of these absentee ballot provisions and then address more. Broadly the question of what if any aspect of these bills that are pending could be seen as legitimate attempts to increase voter confidence and decrease voter fraud. I do think that Agree with much of what derek said about The uncertainty of knowing how these laws are going to affect turnouts. I think that that's shouldn't even be the primary question. The primary question should be. Why is the state making it harder for people to register or vote. Is there good reason and that gets into the questions about voter fraud and about promoting a voter confidence and it turns out that many of these laws and again which we can't every laws different. I can't. I'm not speaking to every single provision of of all of these laws generally speaking many of these laws neither Prevent a pronounce a fraud nor promote voter confidence in in terms of fraud. We do know that. Absentee ballot fraud is more prevalent than in person voting fraud that that's been known for a long time. We've often made the trade off instead. Both tolerate the risk of a little bit more fraud In order to give voters convenience during the last election the calculation was different because we were voting during a pandemic so the costs of voting in person were much higher in terms of people exposing themselves potentially to a deadly virus and so out we decided that that trade off was worthwhile. People watch this election extremely closely. What we found is very little evidence of absentee ballot fraud. There was just a case that came out a few days ago about a man who murdered his wife and then cast an absentee ballot for donald trump After he kills her there are these celebrated cases but they're actually quite rare and we've seen no evidence anywhere in the country of any kind of absentee ballot fraud process to try to steal in the election. This time around people have been looking for it on voter. Confidence is a bit of what i consider some unscrupulous bootstrapping here Donald trump led republicans in claiming that the election was stolen. That ballots were going to come in from china. We now have this crazy audit going on in arizona where a group called cyber ninjas. Private organization is looking at ballots for traces of bamboo. That would supposedly show. That ballots were imported from from china or from south korea. I mean just some crazy stuff going on and This undermines republican confidence in republican voter confidence in the fairness and integrity of the election process if owning it shows that many republican voters believe what donald trump and others have said which is at out that the election was stolen. And therefore that's used as an excuse to pass new laws that make it hard to register. Vote in the name of promoting promoting voter confidence and we do know that studies of states. For example have stricter voter id laws. They don't tend to have voters. That are more confident in the process. Motor conferences driven by other factors. It's actually driven by election loss. And so i don't think that these laws generally are doing much for voter confidence. They are probably doing much for the republican. Legislators who were afraid of donald trump were trying to please their banks and they're looking for something they can do. That will convince those voters that there are steps being taken so that another election won't be stoned even though this one wasn't stolen either derek. Richardson said that. The pending laws don't prevent fraud or promote voter confidence. Can you make the strongest case possible for the ways in which these laws do in fact Prevent fraud promote confidence. At least one thing in terms of confidence that i've been looking at and to what of the points risks raised earlier is the uncertainty about having state officials especially politicians having a greater role in overseeing the election process. There was a related. But i think better concern to think about which is when we talk about that decentralisation. How counties have done so much activity. I think there was a lot of frustration A maybe it was especially on republican officials parts or republicans. Who were the who who lost. The presidential election went outside of the variance that was happening on a county by county basis. And we can attribute some of that to the pandemic where county officials were doing different kinds of things We can attribute it to maybe the fact that county officials democrats or republicans viewed certain combinations is more important or less important. I think undoubtedly there were things and decisions that were being made the level that led to some inequalities and what was happening in terms of the statewide overall results. And so while i certainly agree with rick's point that there's no evidence of systematic fraud. I think there's no question that At least some of the appearance Again more on the losing side than the winning side right appearances sort of inconsistencies in election ministration was was a problem in my judgment in twenty twenty and so some of the rules in places like iowa or georgia or florida that are providing some greater uniformity about how ballot a drop box locations are placed or about the timing in which the ballots can be mailed out whatever it might be to the extent that the legislature is picking some ex ante rules that wants to provide that are going to give voters in whatever part of the state you live in a more similarly situated experience. I think that's a good thing. i think. Those are the kinds of rules that we need regardless of the the underlying motivation of them. It's they're built on a lie. I think that's very frustrating. Disappointing thing rather than being built on the argument that we want to treat similarly situated voters more similarly right and understanding there are people who are sort of frustrated looking some of these rules rules that say one ballot ox drop location per county You're gonna way maybe that treats all voters equally but if you're in a county that has twenty times the population of another maybe. It's not quite so equal or if you're county is physically much larger and larger spread out than maybe we need to be thinking about providing again those better rules to provide the uniformity of experience for voters in thinking more strategically about it but i think there is a case to be made for the legislature at least up front providing some of these rules. That are gonna be fixed. We're not gonna have local Election officials changing the rules close in time to the election and to that extent at least i think there are some some positive things to be looking at these bills. Rick you wrote a piece for the new york times Recently which identified a threat that you're especially concerned about what you called election subversion Tell us about how that applies Both in georgia and and other bills that are pending before the states. So the concern and i think is concerned. The deragon share Is that we have fair rules upfront. For how votes are going to be counted and that we have transparency in the process and accountability. So that we don't have people messing with a election outcomes and so i'm concerned about our for example We can leave georgia and talk about iowa talk. About what spending texas laws that would criminalize the process of election officials. Sending out applications for absentee ballots to voters So that they could apply to vote by mail. If they want to or laws that will give poll-watchers who could be partisans who are Coming to mess with a fair election process giving poll workers a poll watchers unlimited access to. What's going on at a polling place. This could interfere with the fair administration of elections. These kinds of things. That would either make it harder for election mysteries to do their jobs or actually give those jobs over to people who can't be trusted to count the votes that that's really troubling to me. If you go back and you look at the twenty twenty election and you asking how is it that we survived this unprecedented period where you had a presidential candidate who was in incessantly claiming the election was rigged in stolen against him and pressuring election officials to change election results. What kept this country from devolving into a situation where the election itself was the results. Were going gonna be indeterminate. Was that that. Election officials held the line and this was both democratic and republican. Election officials. Already mentioned brad referenced. Burger the secretary of state of georgia republican who refused to find additional votes to flip the results for to donald trump from joe biden from georgia. But there are many others. There was a republican on the state at canvassing board in michigan. Who refused pressure. To overturn the results there. There were judges trump appointed judges included among them who refused to mango existing jurisprudence to try to find a way to award trump. A revote or give the power over state legislatures after state legislation of give the power to voters to choose presidential electors. All those lines held. But what i worry about is twenty twenty four. That's the people who stood up for the rule of law are going to be pushed out already. We've seen people like raffin burger being Censured by election officials. He's being challenged in his reelection by a car. Member of congress who is Parroted trump's false statements. The election was stolen or rigged. And so i worry that the next time around aided by new laws that are being passed by state legislatures in some republican states. It's going to be easier to actually manipulate the outcome of a of elections and not fairly count the ballots. That's why we need things like rules that require that everyone vote on paper ballots so that will be something that can be examined by fear counter or court to make sure that the election results are not being manipulated dirk so because identified at least three laws that he say threaten elections version including the iowa threatens criminal penalties against local election officials the texas bill that would give challengers the ability to interfere with pulling place procedures and the parts of the georgia law that gives the legislature the power to handpick election officials Do you agree or disagree that these could lead to elections version qualified. Agree and i'll give the difference. Maybe at the end of my answer here you know at the opening i i work as a poll. Not a watcher. And i love being a poll worker. And there's no question that has worker I feel mostly frustrated. I see the poll-watchers. Because i feel like this sense being if you wanna see. The system improved volunteer. Invest your time and be a part of the process. And i think inuit when i whenever i've worked in a number of states and counties as an election worker Your everyone is diligently trying to do their job getting paid Essentially peanuts to try to help. The system runs smoothly. So i think anything that tries to interfere with sort of those folks as responsibilities real problem so i on that i wholeheartedly agree And you. I can beat the iowa particular to think about on the one hand. The law has an open ended provision as technical infractions by county officials can result in a fine of ten thousand dollars and that in my judgment is extraordinarily sloppily-drafted law doesn't provide you. The context for technical violations looks like you know sort of an open ended question. I at the same time. The twenty twenty election in particular was a frustration in the state of iowa for a handful of county election officials who just disregarded what state officers said where they were pre filling out forms on absentee ballot requests and mailing them out to voters And there had to be a repeat of litigation going up to the iowa supreme court to instruct those county auditors. Not to do it that the existing law didn't authorize them to do it. They were acting beyond the authority. Granted them by the statue And so the laws that are trying to constrain some of the flagrant behavior of counties Flake right maybe well intentioned but but certainly in defiance of some of the clear guidance the laws it might make some sense now providing sort of criminal sanctions does sort of discourage that behavior on the flip side. If you provide open ended criminal sanctions going to a pointed out that that that's a real problem. It does incentivize some potential oversight from partisan officials Try to penalize the the most mundane run of the mill. Mistakes that election official makes. So i think the key is trying to find on the one hand. Some balance of incentivizing local officials to conform to statewide rules outlaw. On the other hand not overly politicized in the process to give those statewide officials a heavy hand of politicizing the process. I agree that in twenty twenty Statewide officials election officials almost uniformly with the brief exception in michigan i at the local level Were essentially uniform unanimous in certifying the results election and really encouraging results trust the process as it existed and the hope is i think that whatever kinds of oversight happened in places like georgia going forward We're still going to see those kinds of sort of oversight by statewide officials active respect for the process. At least that's the hope. But they're certainly the concerns. That rick raised rick in your piece you identified not only laws but also steps like amazon state senate which is demanded the seizure of November ballots and ordered an audit to be conducted In a way that you think is unreliable. What are your concerns about the future of these elections version efforts. And tell us more about what you think can be done to prevent them. You said that the counting of paper ballots would help and that's already contained in. Hr one the bill pending before congress. But you also identify other election reforms that are not part of hr one including the requirement that states imposed basic safeguards in the counting of votes in federal elections. Yeah so at the risk of election subversion is harder to plan against then than voter suppression laws. So up on another part of hr one this. Mammoth bill that passed through. The house is now stalled in the united states. Senate would require states to offer a period of early voting. Whether it's by mail or in person you can either things you can imagine doing to To deal with Efforts to make it harder to register vote ensuring that you have fair counting processes. That's tough right. So one thing. Having paper ballots. As i mentioned that seems like a no brainer. And even if hr one is not gonna pass it seems as congress should be able to come together and pass a narrow bill that says that in the places where they use fully electronic voting machines should not be allowed. Because i'm just a matching georgia would have been like if georgia was still using. Dare machines fully. Electronic machines didn't participate paper at trump would have claimed that the machines had some malicious code in. There will be no way to verify that he was wrong. But here In georgia they had a recap at hand recounts. Every single. Ballot was looked at by hand right. So so that's that's a one thing you mentioned this. This recount our audits. I don't even know what you want to call it. This crazy thing going on in arizona now in arizona their work challenges through election result of there there was a court process they were no serious irregularities found in arizona and now we have this other process going on which is actually interfering with ballots and a letter sent by hammill carlin who's Election law professor is now working for the department of justice. Suggesting a messing with these ballots. Might it might be interfering with existing federal law that says that states have to preserve ballots in federal elections for twenty two months. And so some of this is about existing lot. But i think so. Much of this is not about laws about norms. One of the things. I say in that piece is that if someone's running for office and their parenting the big lie that the election was stolen. Those people should be condemned. So you know. I don't really have a dog in the fight of win in for the georgia secretary of state's race. I don't endorse candidates And not georgia resident. But i do think that it should be a a as a floor It should be every serious candidate should reject the idea that the election was stolen in georgia. And yet you have. Kansas tour not willing to say that so i think a lot of this is about enforcing norms. You think about some of the problems that we have and that we went through over the last four years. It's because donald trump undermined voter confidence in all the kinds of guardrails that protect our democracy again document norms. Not laws faith in the fbi law enforcement faith into party system faith in an independent judiciary faith in the press. I mean these are all of the kinds of aspects of civil society aspects of our government and our and our political system that ensure that people are following the rule of law and so rather than pass any single piece of legislation aside from things like at the dealing with paper ballots. I think much of this is about bolstering. The rule of law. And that's a really hard project but it seems to me. That's the most important thing we need to do as we looked at twenty twenty two twenty four and beyond thank you for noting those guardrails of democracy the nc has guardrails democracy initiative where. We're trying to identify ways of resurrecting them. And as you note faith in an independent judiciary law enforcement and the press is an important guardrail. Derek you wrote a piece called The diamonds hidden in. Hr one's massive mine. Which i think you agree with Rick that some provision about paper balloting might help increase security and reliability around the balloting process. Tell us about those aspects of hr one and why you are good idea. Yeah absolutely. I think Hr one runs at eight hundred. Eighty six pages. So it's hard to anyone sort of critique and is good or bad thing but i think there's a number of valid and valuable things as rick pointed out about the paper ballots says i think one of the most frustrating things coming out of two thousand twenty election. I'm critiques about dominion voting systems. And the like these are electric. Voting system providers. Were somehow subverting the election. I in virtually all these places. The electronic voting systems are scanning paper ballots. So there's a paper trail out there recruiter. Some places where there aren't and one of the things that are one would do is say you need to have a paper trail somewhere for these things but undoubtedly when we do recounts with the statewide audit in georgia. It was paper ballots that were being looked at in verifying but whatever was being run through. The machines was accurate and so Codifying that is a standard for elections. Is i think good thing. We made some progress after the two thousand fiasco of punch card ballots hanging chads You know we're not quite all the way area about a modernizing our election systems but another this gets to the arizona. Pointed directly is to think about risk limiting audits Which have been growing in popularity in at the state level. You know on the one hand. There's sort of a walkie statistical thing that's sometimes hard to get legislatures excited about but It's sort of incentivizes states to say you need to develop again these sort of ex ante rules. You need before the elections say. Here's how we're going to sort of check to make sure the results are what we think. They were And you'll there are problems that arise from the election night totals. This happens in every election Where there's some corrupted information on a thumb drive That was submitting the information to the the statewide reporting that happened in michigan. Happened in iowa elsewhere. You could have situations where somebody fails to upload the information or or. There's some some some ballots that were set aside. That were not counted the first time. That should have been right. So the canvassed is a process to figure that out between those unofficial totals in the sort of more official totals but then auditing going back in methodical systematic way to verify that whatever happened at the precinct. You have the number of ballots cast as the number of people who checked in that. You can account for all of the ballots that were given to each precinct or each local location and to develop those kinds of rules to instill that confidence. In one of the most frustrating things about arizona's legislative audit is your sort of free wheeling. It's not entirely clear. What those standards are what they're looking for. How they're going to examine it or identify. Good or bad outcomes and so providing those up front rules. I think is crucial and critical safeguard and i think one of the reasons why election officials across the united states were so readily Interested in certifying the ultimate outcome of the twenty twenty election because we have some of those procedural safeguards in place a guy. I think there are ways of improving that in at least a sliver of. Hr wine is designed to help improve those kinds of things Rookie wrote another recent piece called. Hr one can't pass the senate but here are some voting reforms that could you argue that some parts of hr one are a progressive wishlist. That couldn't survive a filibuster And you say parts of it could be found. Unconstitutional including a provision requiring states to reinforce ranch is all people convicted felons not currently serving time in correctional institution. But then you identify four reforms that could in fact pass might attract moderate republican support. Tell us what those are pieces. I think now maybe a couple of months old and what we really care about is. What does joe mansion care about. So let me just the politics of this a little bit so hr one as dark mentioned. There was a huge bill. It became even larger. I think on the senate side. It was not voted out of committee. It was a party line vote. And that's how these things the has proceeded. Democrats have fifty votes in the in the senate plus vice-president harasses tiebreaker so they have a majority but in order for most legislation to get out of the senate and to get to president biden's death it needs to overcome a filibuster which requires sixty votes. That's not true for certain economic legislation that can go through a process called reconciliation. People aren't talking about that for a voting rights bill. And so how you going to get this bill out. While over the last few years both republican and democratic senators have changed the rules for filibuster so democrats for example Got rid of the filibuster as it applies to nominations by the president for everything but the supreme court That's been harry. Reid was senate majority. And then when mitch mcconnell came in they got rid of filibuster for supreme court nominees. That's how justice gorsuch and other justices got through. Well now there's a. There's an argument. And i made one in back in two thousand eighteen. The democrats should get of the filibuster for voting rights reforms because as spring court has said voting rights preservative of all other rights. You don't have the right to vote. How are you going to protect any other rights. And so could we get anything through. That would require blowing up the filibuster. It doesn't seem very likely right now because Joe manchin who's a democratic. Senator from west virginia has not only not endorsed. Hr one but he's also said he won't blow up the two of us what he has proposed instead and so i'd rather talk about what he wants. What i want since his position seems a little more important. Than what i wrote an op ed in the washington. Post a couple months ago. He wants pre-clearance Restored and extended to all fifty states. And let me explain what that is so until two thousand thirteen from the late nineteen sixties till two thousand thirteen anytime state with the history of race. Discrimination passed a law that affected voting. The state had to get approval from the federal government. Either from a The department of justice or three court in washington. Dc and showed it to law would not make protected minority voters worse off Provision called section five voting rights act in two thousand thirteen the supreme court in a case called shelby county vs holder said that the coverage formula that was used to determine which states need to go through this brooklyn process was too old and that relying on this data infringed on what the court majority called equal sovereignty of states as were controversial decision. That's a topic for different podcast. But the upshot is the sprinkler didn't say that section five was unconstitutional said that section four which defined which states were covered by this provision was unconstitutional and congress could go back and try and come up with new pre-clearance formula while what joe mansion is proposing is that we adopt hr four which is the john lewis voting rights act which would restore pre-clearance although that provision has a new coverage formula which democrats believe would be found constitutional by the supreme court but mansion. Suggesting no let's apply it. Nationwide that would solve the equals opportunity problem. Because he wouldn't be treating bama worse than you'd be treating new jersey but it does still creates some constitutional questions not clear. Supreme court would do with something like that. But i think we could take out if we took out and restored pre-clearance in some form and we had limits on partisan gerrymandering the supreme court in a case a few years ago called rubio said that federal courts are not gonna police party gerrymandering the drawing of district lines to help one party or another but congress has the power in the constitution to set the rules for congressional elections article one section four and congress could potentially require the use of redistricting commissions to draw district minds. I think making those changes. And also i would add into that primary reform that would make it easier for. Republican moderates get elected which is important to kind of fight back the trumpian wing of the party. That is showing some authoritarian tendencies. I think putting those things in a bill and getting joe mansion to agree to it and blow up the filibuster to get those voting changes made that would be tremendous progress towards helping to protect voting rights in this country. Thank you very much for that. Thank you for explaining to we. The people listener so well What pre-clearance is and how the shelby county case affected derek. All will begin by asking. Do you believe that a proposal to extend pre clearance requirements to all fifty states could attract any republican support. Do you think that conservative listeners should support it and then after talking about that. Pre-clearance proposal Maybe tell us what you think about rick's other two proposals for partisan gerrymandering reform and primary reform and whether you think they could or should attract any support rick is so succinct enabled the two pack so much information in a small. I'll see if i do my best to get through in terms of the nationwide pre with so the last version of the voting rights advancement after the now the john. Lewis voting rights act on did have a provision for pre clearance. I'm in a way sort of in the past. Pre-clearance was inacceptable thing. In the sense that it was sort of targeting a handful of jurisdictions and when we were renewing it we weren't really changing the jurisdictions that we're going to be covered but now that we're sort of writing from blanks delayed. I do think it's going to be a little bit politically challenging especially for those who come from jurisdictions that are going to be subject to pre clearance again The sort of swallowed ad and say this is an acceptable outcome. There's sort of political component terms of the nationwide pre clearance. It does sort of press with what's been described by the supreme court in shelby county and as far back in the sixties when it was improving the the original voting rights act in cases like cats back extrordinary measure right for the federal government to say your election law cannot go into effect until the attorney general or federal court proves it sort of an extraordinary measure. It's not the kind of thing that was anticipated in the constitution. James madison famously. Wanted a kind of opportunity for for the federal government to veto state legislation. That was never adopted so the question is in a when it comes to that kind of remedy. What kind of record in congress develop and say that this is an appropriate tailoring the extraordinary remedy of pre clearance to certain activities so to pick it on a nationwide basis as rick points yet. You're not treating states differently but still extraordinary sort of cause of action. Say you can't do acts Without the approval of the federal government. And so when you look at l. It's the relaxed version of the voting rights. It hasn't been introduced yet in this congress which is another interesting strategic political decision in my judgment. It has things if you've if you've changed election processes like Adding seats to an at large political subdivision or changing jurisdiction boundaries. Those kinds of things would require nationwide pre clearance. And they're tethered to saying if there's language minorities racial minorities in the state and so in a way you could say. This is a practice that congress could identify the nationwide level. The say listen before you go. Changing how representation looks locally unique to seek approval because it could dilute the rights of minority voters and that might be something squarely within the power of the federal government to authorize mcguire something though assuredly not going to gain a lot of conservative of support was one provision that said any changes to voting identificationsmadison laws or requirements. About proof of identity register to vote would also need to seek nationwide pre-clearance essentially freezing such laws in place and requiring you to go to a federal court or the attorney general seek approval. So i think when you include some provision like that Things that are already hotly contested partisan issues at the state level and ratcheted up to the federal government's level. The say ee can enact any of these statutes without the approval of the attorney general court i think becomes a much more challenging measure for For republicans in congress to support So might be senator mansion. You know he is the swing vote he might be the one who decides that such things are okay but i think it's also thinking about what nationwide pre-clearance looks like. It might be that. Some republicans are okay with some of these provisions to say when it comes to adding seats to local elections redrawing jurisdictional boundaries. Those kinds of things might be able to seek pre-clearance for some of these other provisions. It might be a little bit tougher Of a cell in many thanks for that well in the final portion of this great discussion let us talk about the constitutional dimensions of the voting rights bills. That are pending in the states. this is a complicated question rick. But you're just the person to help us understand it. Are there any aspects of the georgia texas isla or other state bills that raise constitutional questions under sections a under the fourteen. Th fifty amendments and or under section five or section two of the voting rights act. So you're right. It's a very complicated question. So let me just give just a very a brief overview so when a when a state law is challenged as say an effort to make it harder for people to register and to vote a law might be challenged either under the constitution Arguing that it's a violation of the protection or due process or under section two of the voting rights act which protects minority voters that they have the same opportunity as other voters to participate in the political process and to elect represented their choice section. Five right now is a dead letter until unless until the supreme court revive's it on the question of whether or not these laws violated protection. Sometimes the court uses Measures like a strict scrutiny. Makes it very hard for such laws to be sustained a laws that directly infringe on whether someone can cast a ballot of those laws are Judge under under strict scrutiny because the right to fundamental the most of these laws are judged under a very amorphous balancing test which is known in the election. Lafayette as the anderson verdict balancing test which is named after two earlier supreme court cases anderson versus south breezy and burg versus khushi In recent years that balancing test has not been proven to be very successful for a plaintiffs challenging a lot of these loss as to whether these laws could be challenged to violation of section two in those states that have large portions of minority voters. I can't answer that question till probably early july because the supreme court is considering case called brnovich. Brnovich name of the attorney general in arizona. And there's a case that raises for the first time what section. Two of the voting rights act means in the context. Not of redistricting where we have lots of cases. We know what the sprinkler thinks. It means but in the context of so-called vote denial laws that make it hard to register and vote in the burn of each case to arizona Rules were challenged by leg section to it doesn't sound like the players are going to be successful in that case In showing a violation of section two. But the real action is going to be What the court is going to do. In terms of fashioning a test for knowing when sex to the voting rights act is violated. And let me so. I can Be embarrassed in future. Let me give a prediction about something that might happen in that case. I think that As i said. I think that the The planets are not likely to win. Based on the oral argument that i listened to but it is possible to imagine the court dividing say Into three groups as it did in two thousand eight case called crawford versus marine county election board which involves a a constitutional challenge to indiana's voter. I d la where there was kind of a a block of liberals that wanted to strike thing down and here you'd have a potentially a block of liberals that want to say that these laws violate section two. Although i'm not sure the liberals are going to go along at in the burn case a block that's kind of a more extreme conservative block. That's gone to read section to as as Not really having any power in this area. And i'm thinking here of justices thomas alito and potentially and the middle block which would be Cavanaugh chief justice roberts barrett you can imagine them taking a middle position and reading saying that arizona's didn't violate section two but not reading totally toothless provisions. And it's possible that three liberals go along with that interpretation and so we could end up having a unanimous ruling against the plaintiffs in arizona case but yet putting together kind of the liberal bloc and the moderate right blocked if we want to call it that on the court giving some t to allow plaintiffs to challenge the most restrictive laws. I think at least chief. Justice roberts recognizes the political difficulties. Right now in terms of voting and the polarization in this country and at another court decision that would Read the voting rights act. As as mostly a dead letter would be very politically controversial and would also potentially not protect Voters in inadequate congress intended. So i'm at least helpful that we're going to end up with the potential for this kind of middle reading of sex to the voting rights. Act and that that will help go after the most egregious of these voter suppression laws. That are being passed in some of the states. Thank you for that. Wonderfully succinct Introduction to this extremely complicated topic. Derek you also have written about the brnovich case we got it on the we the people podcast and i'm eager your thoughts about what this position. Which rick is described as a middle position That would allow the most extreme voting rights. Laws violate section. Two would look like as as you note section to Says that state laws under the should be evaluated under the totality of circumstances and be struck down when voting procedures are not equally open to participation of racial minorities in that its members have less opportunities than other members of the electorate to participate in the political process to elect representatives of their choice. What test could you imagine. The center of the court converging around. And what laws would that call into. Question adds great question because it's so complicated to think about the kinds of tasks the court can add onto this fairly open ended language in section two of the voting rights. Act right how do we assess totality of the circumstances. How do we add term whether it's equally open to participation with those things look like undoubtedly having the center of the court was gravitating toward thinking about these laws holistically and related li. I think this has been a controversial proposition. The lower courts as rick's pointed out thinking about anderson verdict balancing tasks for many of these statutes that have often been challenged in the lower courts in the they. They sometimes have found success. The district court only be by the court of appeals or especially during the pandemic by the supreme court On sort of short fuse litigation. Where it says these laws need to remain in place. Now take take one example from george arrive Mentioned about requiring you to submit an absentee ballot. Eleven days before the election. Instead of four days is when you put in your application class. How do we assess that. In terms of the burden it places on voters right undoubtedly there some group voters who might have wanted to get an absentee ballot between days. Four and eleven before the election and are unable to do so and who are unable to sort of go to the polling place and vote and so do we sort of focus on that group however narrow it is sometimes according crawford has suggested as such if that group is disproportionately racial minorities. Do we think about that group as the group being most of disproportionately affected or we look at the fact. This is a law sort of treats everyone equally a statewide basis. Everyone has the same opportunities front as the same opportunity to participate in the political process. And we also look at it in the totality of the circumstances. You have had ample opportunities up until eleven days before. The election. Requested absentee ballot. And you can go to the polling place and vote in person and when you look at it from that lens you know. Most voters are not going to be acted. And you still have ample alternative avenues to seek out the opportunity to vote. So i think what makes these laws in particular tricky to evaluate on the one hand. You might look them. Doesn't make it harder to vote. Maybe thought when we look at it and some of these narrow discrete categories but placing ed totality of the circumstances past the court might do under section two or placing it under sort of this past about how Voters under anderson verdict. I think has made a lot of these sort of tweaks to election laws much harder for litigants to challenge You know unlike some of these other other statutes that will you even voter. Identification laws prohibit you from voting. If you don't have the id subject to some limited exceptions. These are much trickier they make it a little bit more challenging in channel voters in different different to be able to participate but i think the court has have less appetite in same for the federal courts to be the place to make education for these more sort of intermediate measures. I think burnaby. I think rick is right. That bernard bitch will come down in a way to say that there. Are you know some outliers. Some extreme situations where litigants are gonna win these challenges but under the totality of the circumstances many times the the plaintiffs will lose. Thanks so much for that One more round before closing arguments. Rick if you were advising the supreme court about how to interpret section to what test would you propose for the adjudication of vote. Denial claims rather than vote dilution claims. And how would it apply and what sort of provisions of the laws we've been discussing call into question. Why should say first of all what i would do is rework the The anderson burden burden a balancing test. Because i think that the court win in the wrong direction And i've written about this for many years. I think that essentially what happens in these balancing test is that the court is a bear on evidence it requires tremendous evidence of burton's on voters and yet when it comes to state interests like promoting voter confidence or preventing fraud Requires no evidence. We saw that in the crawford case that i mentioned earlier. Two thousand case. Upholding indiana's voter. Id lot it was up justice stevens. Who wrote the controlling opinion. There you know. He drops a footnote talking about voter fraud and he had a site boss. Tweed back from the mid nineteenth century to find evidence of fraud or one possibly one fraudulent ballots. Cast in the governor's race in washington state. Nearly two thousand. I think rather than doing this. As an issue of voter voting rights act and race. I would much rather than voters across the country whether they can show racial discrimination or not Get more protection again. The question should be. Does the state have the legitimate reason to make it harder for people to register and vote and another derek octopus as creating kind of one way ratchet states increase access to the ballot. Have a hard time rolling it back. But i'm actually fine with that. I think they should have a hard time rolling it back. I think that Voting rights should always be getting stronger. Salang we do have Adequate protections against actual fraud or or Problems with how elections run on the section to question itself. I think the lower courts pretty much had it right. You have to show that a law. Burdens minority voters greater the burdens others. And that the states justification for making it harder for protected murari voters to vote is not to use technical language here from from voting rights. Act cases tenuous tenuousness requirement. And let me just give you an example of what this looks like texas past one of the strictest voter id laws in the country. It was blocked under section five. When section five was still pre clearance section. Five was still there. As soon as the supreme court decided shelby county texas announced. I think within two hours it was going to enforce. Its very strict voter. Id la a law. That had only a very small number of acceptable forms of id which did not include Nineties although did include people had a gun permits of that kind of idea was okay. That law was challenged as a violation of section to the voting rights act in the fifth circuit. Which is probably the most conservative circuit court in the united states. Held that the law unbox. So the entire a fifth circuit held the law was was violation of sexual to the voting rights act texas then went back and it made its law a little bit less stretch. It said for example that voters had reasonable impediment to getting the kind of ideas that are allowed under the law. Those voters could fill out an affidavit as to who they are and that this could serve as an alternative to an id. the law was still challenged. And when it went back to the fifth circuit the No that's fine. And i think that's the way things should work. I'm not saying that those two particular decisions were necessarily right but the idea. Is you have a test that is meaningful. That has teeth at says. Laws that are really restrictive should be found to be violating the voting rights act and laws. That are reasonable ways of running election. Those are okay. That's what i would like to see. you know i. I don't know whereas are exactly the court's going to draw. That line is going to be a majority opinion. I suspect we may not until the very end of the supreme court's term but it is one of the most important cases that the court is going to decide this term because it's going to have x. For twenty twenty. Two twenty twenty four. I'm beyond derek. What are your thoughts about how the court fashion test for section two in the brnovich case rick endorsed the lower court. Test that Ah question is whether laws burden minority voters more than others and whether the state's justification for burdening minority voters is tenuous Do you think that's the right test or would you advocate for another test. And what do you think of the proposal to refine the anderson verdict tests by asking whether states have a legitimate reason for making it harder for people registering. I support probably a little bit. More of a stringent test arizona for instances had allama books that prohibit out of precinct voting as far as i know since it was a territory. So it's it's a longstanding rule in the books And the ninth circuit looking at it saying you know what we think. This law disproportionately burdens racial minority voters. We can't figure out the state's justification Down i mean to me is is just a little bit too easy to for courts. Just kinda step in substitute their judgment. And it's true. As rick said that a lot of times the legislature Is not have to come forward. Great reasons in front of the court done so in the past But you know in terms of providing thinking about the opportunities for voters. There are equal opportunities to participate in the political process throughout arizona In particular if we think about the precinct problem might be a problem. In certain towns in another counties they use vote. Centers re don't have to go to any particular Precinct which he goes somewhere within the county to be able to vote and so thinking about the fact that there are many alternative avenues in the fact that it might have a burdensome impact on some population in the state in my judgment is just not enough. I think that there was a position advanced by solicitor general's office until it was withdrawn. The by administration took over so just some kind of proximate causation. That you're able to show that it was this law that was causing the effect did not just that. It had some sort of burden. I think that that would provide a little bit more flexibility to the states to be able to preserve including in a long-standing laws on the books but also to to say those statutes are for the most part in gonna be be upheld. But now even when be thinking about these things when one of the frustrating things We open this conversation thinking about statutes right and we're so quickly into the courts and and in some ways congress cannot be eight all this not just an hr one if it wanted islamic down or find something. Congress provide a lot of uniform guidance to the states to prohibit certain types of practices or provide some kinds of floors and so if hr one enacted things within. I agree or disagree or things that might be constitutional or not But it would sort of a lot of litigation that's been happening at the lower court level To be thinking about these problems sort of a piecemeal ad hoc basis So i i. I do wish that the legislature would flex its muscle a little bit more. Maybe in some slimmed-down versions eight hundred eighty six page versions but to address those problems that thinks the national level really need to be addressed. Maybe that's no pie in the sky. Talk when we're talking about our artisanship. But i think the the the real reason. We leaned so heavily on the federal courts to do so is because of a lack of federal guidance. That would again sort of cure many of these problems well. It's time for closing arguments in this really rich and eliminating discussion rick the first one is to you. Republicans claim that these pending voter laws discouraged voter fraud and promote voter confidence. Democrats say that they are tools of vote suppression or election. Subversion is this essentially a partisan debate dressed up with broader principles or. Is there any common ground in this debate about the legality and constitutionality of voting rights bills in the states. I think derek and i can find common ground and if you make us elections ours. I think we could run the elections. Dr fairly nicely but you know we. We just get to be armchair quarterback here. And so i would say is that you know the debate over i. I wrote this in my Twenty twenty bucks election meltdown. The debate over voter fraud and voter suppression. I think the debate is actually over as a matter of actuality The amount of fraud in this country is is quite low. Certainly we need provision to keep it that way and we need aggressive prosecutors when there are serious violations and a week we see kind of Lots of prosecutorial discretion things. That look serious. Don't get prosecuted at things. That seem very minor. Do get prosecuted so i think It is unfortunate that this is a partisan debate Want wanna look at this as a democratic versus republican issue. I side with the voters. And i ask you know. What can we do to assure that we have fair elections that people will accept as legitimate. Were all eligible voters but only eligible voters can easily cast a vote. It will be fairly accurately counted. And i think that's gotta be the baseline and there are lots of things i would favor to move in that direction. Like moving towards national non-person election ministration. Those are things that are not going to happen anytime soon. In the united states even though every other advanced democracy as a model like that so we have to ask what we can do within the reality of the american system. I would like to see more. Bipartisan cooperation on election issues. I think that it's going to require us to get through this trumpian moment. Where election confidence is being undermined by lies about the twenty twenty election being stolen. So it's particularly difficult time for us to get consensus. I hope that maybe a decade from now will be passed this moment and there will be again an opportunity for people across the political spectrum to come together and to pass voting rules that makes sense that short eligible voters who cast ballot that really what the parties and others are doing are competing for voters votes. Not trying to shape who. The electorate is derek. The last word is to you Do you believe that there are grounds for bipartisan cooperation. On election issues. so that people from across the political spectrum can Cast eligible votes. And what might those reforms will bite. Yeah so i think i. I agree with much rixon mcginn. I have the optimism of the future Any of these statutes. I'm not sure they do a lot of good. I'm not sure they do a lot of harm. I think some of them are a little more explicable as we opened the conversation about banning people from handing out water bottles to george voters waiting in line But for most of these things. I think they're tweaking at the margins. I think one of the more concerning things is that they are being used as sort of explanations to say while we are responding to the problems. Twenty twenty And there's a lot of problems in two thousand twenty. And i think this is a long standing issue for an. It's beginning worse. In the last twenty years in particular losing candidates or losing parties may be losing partisans Who feel like this system was rigged in stacked against them and they feel disaffected by the process Until they win again or that there must be some defect in the system and it's very frustrating are fortunate. I don't know what the way forward is You know it's obvious it's dealt truth to instill that confidence in public It's very hard when a former president is insisting The game was rigged. And we've seen this in in other situations in florida in two thousand in georgia gubernatorial election two thousand eighteen but never at the scale and level of worry. I think it is only gonna get worse. So i think we do need to be thinking about again smartly about those kinds of reforms. Paper ballots audit Audit auditing the votes in appropriate. Risk limiting auditing way. Not in a in an ad hoc legislative forensic audit Thinking about those kinds of things that really can ensure broad consensus on a bipartisan basis. To instill that confidence on but at the end of the day if the voters were willing to accept that result egged on by losing candidates. You know. I think we're in a very dark place so i like to be thinking about those kinds of things that can bring us together on a bipartisan basis. And hopefully move the ball forward in the in improving the conference in our elections. Thank you so much. Rick hasn't and dirk muller for ending us on a note of light rather than darkness and for a nonpartisan discussion of the most partisan of all constitutional and political issues Rick derek thank you so much for teaching us. Thank you for joining. Thank you thank you today. Show was engineered by david. Stotts and produced by jackie. Mcdermott research was provided by mac. Taylor and lana overk- Homework of the week we the people listeners. If you haven't yet please check out our companion. Podcast live at nc. It's just a wonderful audio feed of all of the incredible townhall programs that were running every week and the recent topics have been so exciting from american literature in the constitution to Questions involving Do we need a third reconstruction. They're so rich and you'll love them if you like we the people you love live at. Ncc's so please check it out and if you do let me know what you think. And at the same time please. Rate review and subscribe to the people on apple podcasts and recommended show to friends colleagues or anyone anywhere who is hungry for a weekly dose of constitutional education and debate and always remember that the national constitution center is a private non-profit and please consider supporting the mission by becoming a member of constitution center dot org forward slash membership or giving a donation of any amount to support our work at constitution center dot org forward slash. Donate those dollar five dollar contributions that you're making are so meaningful and they're a wonderful show support for an educational mission that we all care deeply about so thank you and on behalf of the national constitution center. I'm jeffrey rosen.
Election Day Nightmare? Dirty Tricks, Suppression, No concessions
"Welcome to it's all political. The San Francisco Chronicle's political podcast. I'm Joe Garafolo. The Chronicle senior political writer. And today we're going to talk about the fragile state of our election system. I guess is one of the nation's foremost experts on elections. Rick Hassen a professor at the University of California Irvine and author of a new book called election meltdown dirty tricks distrust and the threat to American democracy. We talk about all kinds of nightmare. Scenario stuff that keeps rick up at night and should keep you up to like what. President trump loses and refuses to concede. Would if the. Russians tried to interfere with the election by taking down the electrical grid and cities with large numbers of African American voters. Like Milwaukee or Philadelphia. Or what if the states? You're so overwhelmed. By the number of male imbalance they receive because of concerns about voting in person because of the corona virus. What happens then? What are the things we hold sacred in this country are free and fair elections have never been more vulnerable? Rick explains what we should do to protect them. Here's our conversation Professor casted welcome to. It's all political. It's great to be with you. You as one of the foremost election experts in the country were were concerned about the The country's ability to hold fair elections before this Kobe. Nineteen pandemic. Why is that? And why is your concern heightened now right so I wrote a book called Election Meltdown? Which came out in February? It actually came out the day after the debacle in Iowa which seems like it was ten years ago but it was only a few my God. Yes and it's the book is talking about the four reasons why confidence in the fairness and legitimacy of American elections is going down. And so there's four reasons. Are these fights over voter suppression and voter fraud with Almost exclusively Republican legislatures passing laws. That make it harder for people to register and vote in the name of preventing voter fraud without any proof. That voter frauds a major problem. The United States convincing both sides That the other side is trying to cheat pockets of election administrator incompetence places where it just don't run elections very well and in a very close election. Attention focuses immediately in those places. The third reason is both newfangled and old fashioned dirty tricks Think of the Russians twenty sixteen. Think of the absentee ballot. Tampering occurred in the North Carolina's Ninth Congressional district in Twenty Eighteen. Things like that And on the last reason I think that things are were getting worse and now potentially post given An even more dire state is an increasingly incendiary rhetoric about rigged or stolen elections. President trump famously claimed without any evidence that there were three to five million fraudulent voters in the two thousand sixteen election. All he claimed voting for his opponent. Hillary Clinton But trump's not the only one who makes claims of rigged or stolen elections. And I think about a number of Democrats who claim that the twenty eighteen toil race in Georgia Georgia between Stacey Abramson. Brian Kemp that kept stole that election. And and even though I think engaged in some Terrible misconduct to try to help his own election. I don't think there's good proof to call it a stolen election and I think that that kind of language really undermines even further people's confidence in the process. Well let's we're GONNA break down a each of those four things. That are the outline the book which is excellent. I commend it to everyone would. So what amount of confidence you have the Election Day twenty twenty. It's going to go off at least as smoothly as it did in past years. So why do I think it's not going to go off smoothly? Yes or do you think it will well so I think that the The pandemic has changed how we run our elections in in two ways number one We're going to see a huge increase in the number of Absentee ballots and nontraditional ways of voting in places like California. That's not gonNA be as big of a deal because we already have so many people that vote by mail and we haven't infrastructure for dealing with that but places it's going to be pretty radical change so one thing is we've got Changes in procedures. That means that the the places like Pennsylvania and Michigan that didn't have no excuse absentee balloting before that haven't now are going to be faced with a flood of ballots. There might be delays. Getting election. Election Results reported. There might be shifts in. Who's the winner of that leaves room for people to claim that they're the winner even when they're not So one thing that's changing the procedures that changing the laws and the laws are changing in part because some states are are are changing the dates of of of elections or changing the requirements for elections. There's also been some lawsuits places where they haven't made changes for example there's a lot of lawsuits over what counts as an excuse in state that requires proof in excuse in order to vote by mail so these things further increase the I think the the risk that there is going to be an election where a good percentage of people don't believe that the election was conducted fairly. And that's really a problem because our democracy we don't we don't usually articulated for democracy depends upon the losers accepting the results of the elections legitimate grumbling about the loss but agreeing that the way the election was done was fair and willing to fight another day. If if we lose that we you know. We lose the very basis for our democracy. Let's let's jump onto that because I wanted. I definitely talk about mail. And battling in Mellon a minute because that's so important right now but and two different very different people. Nancy Pelosi and at trump's former attorney fixer Michael Cohen. Who it's seems like talk about something happened years ago. He's seemed to have faded from as he is. He's doing his prison. Time said that they as you alluded to. They wonder whether trump would concede the election if he loses Cohen said given my experience working for Mr Trump fear that if he loses the election. Two Thousand Twenty that there will never be a peaceful transition of power. Wh What do you think of that do you? Do you think that that's that's a? That's a possibility. And what our options. If he doesn't well I would say that It's the number one question I and when I was still able to go out on the road do my book tour. It was number one question. What if trump doesn't concede and I think that it's not a question of not conceding. It's a question of trump claiming that he's won the election and You know claiming that Places where he lost is the result of fraud. I certainly think it's possible given his track record that he would do something like that to the extent that he could manipulate state legislatures to Send in competing sleights of Electoral College votes. The extent he could try to influence what Congress would do in the case of a very close election. I do think that it is something to worry about The best inoculation against this would be a blow out election either where he wins decisively or loses decisively. I think we're really in trouble is when There's a close enough election that he could make a claim that his supporters would believe that he's actually won the election So think again. Back to the example of Pennsylvania imagine that trump is ahead in Pennsylvania on election night declares victory five days later. They're finished counting. The flood of absentee ballots in Philadelphia and Biden is declared the winner and then trump tries to pressure the republican state legislature there to send in a slate of electors for him and then false. Congress to work that out. I mean it just sounds like a a real nightmare scenario and it's one of the things that keeps me up at night worried about How we're GONNA get through this election in the middle of a pandemic but it is. It is a valid scenario. We're not you're not just the doomsday saying here. That's that's that's within the realm of possibility. Right that's why I convened a group of leaders in law politics media and tech to come up with some recommendations for how to best assure that We'll have a fair election that people will accept as legitimate and a number of things on that list are aimed at delays in votes absentee ballots. A part of it is what election administrators need to do in terms of being transparent about things and a big part of it is the media especially cable news media understanding that this difference between Too early to call and Who's in the lead and you need to kind of explain to viewers that it's going to take time especially in the context of the pandemic related changes in procedures and floods of absentee ballots. It's GonNa take a while to figure out who the winner is. People shouldn't expect that they're going to wake up on November. Four th and know who the next president is if it happens to be close I mean again. It may not be close but if it is close Understanding explaining what the procedure is and how things are going and knocking down misinformation which could be coming from Russia or other you know foreign adversaries to try to further undermine our The confidence in our process I think is really essential so I think we need to plan for it now or about six months out from the election. Now's the time we need to be educating everyone about all of these issues and Here in California of course. Ula to we're used to that we had in two thousand eighteen. We had four congressional races. That were Seemed like Republicans had won on election night and then When the votes were finally counted those seats at flip the Democrats You also write in your book that an interesting scenario you say. Let's let's flip the script on. The trump will concede if he loses fears. This is you writing and imagine that. Trump narrowly wins reelection. Two Thousand Twenty. Thanks to victories in Georgia Florida and Texas each of which has restricted voting laws witness. What's your concern about? What would happen there? If the is flipped and trump narrowly wins these these states well to the extent that there is convincing evidence that trump won these states or one of these states because there has been an attempt to suppress the votes of a legitimate voters. Then the concern is not that. That's the trump supporters who don't accept the results as legitimate. It's the It's the left. It's the Democrats that don't and I think It raises similar concerns about how you function in society when people don't believe that the election was fairly conducted. Do you still have a democracy and you know what does it mean in terms of Kind of street protests or civil unrest. Especially we know that. The pandemic is causing all kinds of economic dislocations people. Losing their jobs. It's just it creates a situation where for example there might be street protests which could then lead to repressive action by the government. And you get into a pattern where you're not talking about The way normal civil society in democracy works and so that that is another one of those nightmare scenarios that I worry about. We'll have more my conversation with Rick Hassen after this short break. Hey Audrey Cooper here editor in chief of the San Francisco Chronicle and we've ramped up the news coming at you from fifth emission the physical that the mission since we're all working at home the fifth a mission. That is our flagship news. Podcast were interviewing anyone with anything to say about the Koran virus so that you have the latest information as soon as we know it so check it out the mission wherever you get your podcast. And here's more my conversation with recasting. Let's talk about something. That's that's on the table right now. And that's the mail in voting right now. Only Five States Oregon Washington Utah Colorado in Hawaii male all of their registered bell voter's ballot. California's been slowly rolling. This out over the last couple of years. Do we have the technology and again. This is something we're talking about because of the pandemic do we have the technology end ability to do this in all fifty states by election day. Do we have that and we have the time to do that. At this point well do you mean move to California style system or an all male system all mail system to to deal with the the the social distancing a physical distance? Yeah well first of all I would advise that states that don't have all mail balloting to move to such a system right now because first of all. We don't know what's going to be with the postal service. We don't know what's going to be with mail in ballots. What are our committee recommended? Is that there be a variety of methods right so we need to have things in place for both in person. Voting and for absentee balloting. I think both of those things need to be going but I do think that because of the pandemic we're going to see a huge uptick in the amount of absentee balloting. We're already seeing it. In the later the primaries and some states are going to be better positioned than others to deal with this Surge of ballots and let me explain why it's problematic. You might think it's easier because then you're not sit at polling places in some ways it's easier in that in that you don't have to find those workers but you have to find other workers who are going to have to verify the absentee ballot envelopes and states have different rules states. You have to have a witness or you have to have certain documentation like a voter identification card Xerox Copy Right. So there are going to be all kinds of processing times which not only causes delays. But it's expensive for jurisdictions and Congress has not come up with enough money to deal with all those problems states are financially strapped because of the pandemic and. So we're in a situation where states are going to more or less depending on the State. Prepare for the expected surge about Cente- ballots and Whether they're prepared or not. Those absentee ballots are going to come and so I am concerned that they're you know there are some states where it's not sixty or seventy percent. California of voters voting by mail. It's something like three to six percent and those places you know. We saw for example in Wisconsin. I think they got five times. The number of absentee ballots and we know a number of those ballots were not counted because voters didn't get their ballots and time couldn't send them back in time The US Supreme Court rolled back somewhat a rule that the a federal district court to come up with to extend the timing for the casting. These ballots and so all of these things do raise logistical concerns. And so I think as I said. Some parts of the country are in much better shape than others. I think California's in pretty good shape and and in Los Angeles County where I live I think they've now decided to mail a ballot to every eligible voter which is something that had been suggested after we had trouble before covered nineteen after we had trouble in the primary with very long lines. Here we moved to vote centers so The more you can do to make it easier for people who are eligible to vote legitimately cast a ballot The better off. We're going to be in November. The president is not a fan of mail in voting. Even though he has done it himself he said you never would never have a republican elected in this country again if there is a massive mailing voting other than political opposition other valid points to opposing mail in ballots. I should say that. The president's opposition to mail in balloting is new usually when he makes his unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud. He's talking about noncitizens voting. Which there's very very little in the United States and I give details about that claim in my book election meltdown Don't take my word for it. Go and read it and check out the footnotes. He also made claims about people. Voting who lacked voting the name of others thousands of people of voting fraudulently again not backed by the evidence and now he's making claims against mail in balloting Which is quite odd as you mentioned. Not only he regularly use mail in balloting for his own votes Republicans traditionally in California have used Mellon balloting as a way to lock in their voters and get them to cast their votes. It's a key part of strategy other states including Florida and Ohio The the best evidence shows that there is not good Strong evidence that the goose of mail in balloting helps Democrats. But I think has happened. Is that in the past decade? Or so I think maybe from the beginning of the Obama Campaign for President Democrats have moved towards encouraging more early voting. Both in person and absentee voting. It's become part of their strategy to get out the vote so Democrats have caught up with Republicans in terms of using mail in balloting How much fraud is there? We do know that fraud in the United States is quite rare. I would point your listeners to the news. Twenty one database which looked at all Prosecutions of election crimes and a twelve year period from two thousand two thousand twelve. We know that absentee ballot related crimes made up about a quarter of the crimes that were reported That were prosecuted But the total number was quite low. It was four hundred and ninety one cases during a period when billions of ballots were cast and many of those cases didn't involve anything that would've affected election outcomes. They were things like one person illegally. Requesting that absentee ballot Forms be sent to another person. so Absentee Ballot Fraud. Does happen. It's quite rare in the five states that use all mail balloting which includes some heavily. Republican states like Utah the amount of election crime related to Epstein Ball Tampering and the amount of election. Crime generally is extremely low. So I think it's a very safe way to vote. And of course now. Ordinarily we we make the calculation that the convenience of people being able to vote by mail outweighs the small risk of fraud and now the calculation is different. Because now it's not only about the convenience of absentee voting. It's about the safety of it and people who might be afraid or unable to come out in public should the pandemic Still be raging in November. Yes and and and if there's one thing that I hope the listeners take away from this podcast is that As professor says when when the President tweets out that one hundred and may be mail and voting which is ripe for fraud is inaccurate. There's very very very little true. Voter fraud out there Let's talk about the practice known as ballot harvesting it's become colloquially known as that and some states like California it's League. It's now legal for campaigns up people to collect right the balance of stranger ballots of strangers. And He's right in the book on one hand allowing campaigns to collect. Ballots helps the elderly and disabled voters as well as those in remote rural areas. The handwrite this could be could allow quote. Unscrupulous people to collect blank absentee ballots or steal them for mailboxes and fill them in. We've not seen reports of these types of problems yet and California could arise in the future for this reason. Ballot harvesting should be limited to the collection of ballots From those who were faced difficult difficulties turning them in. How should we change the system of ballot? Harvesting how how can we refine the it to include some of your suggestions there? Well so I I think I supporting to underline the California that Although recently moved towards allowing the unlimited community collection of absentee ballots any prosecuted crimes of anyone tampering with ballots yet but but it provides a basis for suspicion. We saw Paul Ryan the former speaker of the House Republican Speaker of the House claiming that the vote shifts which you mentioned earlier in those congressional races in Southern California were bizarre. He called it. I do think that it provides more more basis of his ignorance of the system than anything else right. Yeah but I do think that when we saw North Carolina in the two thousand eighteen election Where the the ninth Congressional district where there was ballot tampering? It was illegal to collect absentee ballots from others about harvesting illegal in North Carolina. But it happened anyway because people were not the federal government did not go ahead and prosecute despite a early evidence that there were problems but it provides a kind of a fence around the To manipulate absentee ballots. If you can't have unlimited collection and so I think I've now around the system used in Colorado Colorado all-male balloting and they Allow you to collect up to ten ballots from a stranger So I think that's probably a good start. I I would suggest the California moved to approach like that. I think we might WanNa make exceptions to allow collection For places where there's not regular mail service or allow collection among populations that might have difficulty getting to a male boxer getting those ballots in so And and I think we need to make sure that these laws are not being Passed in in a way to try to disenfranchise minority voters as was found by the United States. Court of Appeals for the ninth circuit involving Arizona Anti Ballot Harvesting Law. So I think we could try and strike a balance to make sure that people are not disenfranchised but not provide an avenue by which you can have these ballots floating out there by third party groups. I I worry. Among other things that unscrupulous people could come in and try and collect these belts and A neighborhood and Expect THOSE VOTERS. GonNa vote a certain way and then. Just throw those ballots away and so. I think that's something that we do need to worry about. But let's talk about voter. Id thirty five states right now. Require some form of identification. Democrats typically oppose these laws saying they suppress out You've written the proving voter. I D laws. Suppress turnout remains difficult. And the effects of these laws are still difficult to measure. What what about photo? Id what why couldn't we go to a system where The state would fund and provide for some sort of. Id not a driver's license because not everybody drives etcetera etcetera. What's the what's the downside of doing that? Well I actually in a book I wrote in Twenty Twelve called the voting wars. I suggested we have a national voter. Id All funded by the federal government all proactively provided by the federal government and states. That proposal that has United Democrats and Republicans because the united them against it. Republicans don't like the aspect of that is a universal. Every every person is eligible to vote. Gets this voter. Id cards automatically. Registered to vote for life and and Democrats don't like the idea of registration and the requirement card and I would also let people use biometric information if they don't want to carry the card for example their thumbprint to verify their identity. I there are things that we could do The problem is the way that voter. Id Laws are actually implemented in the states. They usually have a limited number of types of ideas that are available You know a student Id cards are often not allowed and gun. Permits are allowed in Texas for example and The way these laws are actually implemented the ground at lots of people who think they don't have the right idea actually do a lot of confusion around the plans because we have this. Decentralized system where the rules are not clear and You have a lot of discretion on the part of individual Poll workers as just a system where people end up disenfranchised by or have to jump through hoops when these laws are not serving really much of a valid purpose. Right if the purpose is to prevent you from going to the polling place claiming you're someone else in voting the ballot. That kind of fraud just doesn't happen at a really is extremely rare And you know. It's hard to find any instances of any organized effort to try to steal an election in this way. So I do think that the state voter ID. Laws are mistaken. The reason I would favourite on the federal level is because we have this hodgepodge of voter registration laws and all kinds of people ended up getting disenfranchised when they're No longer registered to vote. Because either they haven't voted or they've moved or something like that if the federal government had a national database and kept track of your voter registration information. You'd always be registered somewhere. And it'd be easy. You'd have one number that Voter registration number. That would go with you your whole life. It'd be a different kind of system. I think it'd be a much more rational system national universal voter registration with a national. Id Card What are your concerns about voter suppression and cities with significant black populations like Milwaukee Philadelphia Detroit? That are in key battleground states at one way. Right in Is that if the Russians or other foreign governments really wanted to use hacking to disrupt in American presidential election. The most direct and dangerous way would be to bring down the electrical grid on election day and a swing state democratic city such as Milwaukee Detroit. There's good reason to believe they already have the capability to do. So what are your concerns about this? Yeah this was one of the nightmare scenarios that spell out an election meltdown. I think that It's a real concern because we think of election infrastructure as voting machines polling places but in fact it takes a lot more terms of our general infrastructure to run election including That the electricity is working so that people can drive their cars. Get through the stop. Stop Lights you know this. The elevator or whatever to be able to get to a polling place and So I am worried. I would say that that kind of activity should be treated as an an act of war against the United States. But you don't have a president right now who is warning the Russians against interference in the election or or others in fact he seems to be inviting interference so I am very concerned about That on election day and I would say. Things concerns are heightened by the pandemic because within the pandemic This lots of room for more information people already skittish about going out in public. People are already Primed to It could just cocoon themselves and not engage in political life. And you know. There's all kinds of mischief that could happen related to the election including taking down the grid. That could be a real problem in this way. Absent increased absentee balloting. Can help. Because you know an attack on. The electric grid is not going to affect whether ballots. That were stuck in. The mail are going to be able to be counted. So that's one step that can be taken to try to deal with this in the short term. Let's let's like A. What do you want to run by? You was a question or concern. I should say I got the other day from a democratic operative. He was concerned that in several of the battleground states among them Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. There are These are states with large colleges They have many out of state students and it's classes remain in online mode and the fall. A lot and a lot of the students don't return to classes. Those out of state students there could be a significant decrease in democratic up. This person was concerned. And you know let's remind listeners. that When you lose the by eighty thousand votes across four states including these three every little vote counts So is that a valid concern. Or is that just a really? We talked about something way way at the margins here. It's not something I've thought about before but it does seem to make sense to have this concern because of all the populations that are affected by the pandemic in terms of where people are living. I think students are the ones that have moved. The most many students have gone back to their parents homes because that's where it is To be at the time and If someone for example was a student in Pennsylvania at the with parents and California. Is THAT STUDENT. GonNa requested absentee ballots. Are The students who are going to be eligible to get an absentee ballot of for example? You were freshman. You're planning on starting at the University of Pennsylvania in the fall so I think that's something to be concerned about. And I think that to the extent that Democrats are counting on the student. Vote dislocations in the fall could affect whether or not those people vote and where they vote one more one. You is typically. The people who are most likely to turnout traditionally been wealthy older and white. Those people are more likely to vote. Republican which explains in part why Republicans lesson incentive to make voting easier for others. But do you think corona virus will change the face of the electorate since older Americans are more susceptible to to being to to getting in and being hurt or by the by by cove nineteen and we should add that in two thousand sixteen president trump won voters over the age of sixty five by seven points? So this is. This is a key demographic for him but overall how do you think that the The pandemic and what we're going through right now will change the face of the electric. Well that's probably a little bit outside of my area of expertise. I think it's very hard to know. How the pandemic is going to affect US things. We don't know what things are going to look like in November one of the things we saw in Wisconsin for example which ran a Primary in the middle of the pandemic and It was when you know the the contest between Biden Sanders was was pretty much at its end And so you might think the turnout would be down. In fact turnout was way up especially among Democrats who thought the The Republican legislatures refusal to move the election was an attempt to to kind of put put Democrats in danger or force them From not voting is there was kind of a backlash and it turned up among Democrats especially by mail. It's really hard to know what the politics of the situation are going to be. You know I've heard a lot of people say nothing's GonNa stop me from voting and you know people did lineup and voted in Milwaukee. Even though one hundred seventy five out of one hundred and eighty polling stations were closed People did Turn out to vote and The Democratic backed candidate for the State Supreme Court. There ended up winning a pretty decisive They're not only in the traditional democratic strongholds of places like Milwaukee and Madison But also in more rural areas so I think anybody who knows how the pandemic is going to affect. Turn Out That person knows more than I do. Because I think it's just really hard to know at this point professor. Thank you so much for being on. It's all political. Appreciate it thanks. Thanks for scaring us to earn the crap out of us while these nightmare scenarios to be preparing an I advise you to if you Google Fair Elections Crisis You'll find Fourteen recommendations of our committee of what to do to try to make things better and more recommendations in my book collection Milta- Yes and the chronicle are my colleague. John Wilder Muth wrote about your Study the other day you can find out an ESA chronicle dot com and again the book Election Malcolm. Thank you so much for your time. I'd like to thank you all for listening today. And I hope that you and your family safe and healthy. I like to think professor hassled for joining us today. Talk his new book election meltdown. I like to thank the King King Kaufman for producing today's episode. And remember no matter what. Your Election Day nightmare is. It's all political. It's all political as part of the San Francisco. Chronicle podcast network. Audrey Cooper is our editor and chief our music our theme music that we have is cattle. Call that's written by Randy Clark and performed by Randy Clark and Crow Song. If you'd like this show subscribe rate and review it on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen for more great journalism like this subscribe to the San Francisco. Chronicle at San Francisco Chronicle Dot com slash subscribe. You can find me on twitter at Joe. Garre fully thanks.
Column: The FDA and CDC Promised Transparency in the Vaccine Process. Here's How Congress Can Hold Them to It
"Brought to you by the so-fi daily podcast reaching financial independence starts with having the right information every weekday morning. So Fi keeps you up to date with important business news stock market happenings, and how they affect your financial life search for S-o-f-i. S.. O. F. I wherever you get your podcasts. The FDA and CDC promised transparency in the vaccine approval process. Here's how Congress can hold them to it by Maggie Hassen and Lisa Murkowski. Has, an is a senator for New Hampshire in the US, Congress mcaliskey is a senator for Alaska in the US Congress. The covid nineteen pandemic continues to have a devastating impact on the health and economic well-being of families and communities across the country, and this virus will remain a significant threat until the safe and effective vaccine can be made available to all. while. We all hoped to get potential vaccines reviewed, produced and distributed as quickly as possible. We can't sacrifice safety and efficacy for speed. It is also critically important that the public has confidence in the Federal Government's Vaccine Review Process which includes assurances that the food and drug. Administration has followed the necessary protocols to ensure vaccine safety and effectiveness. Together we've introduced the safe authorization for vaccines during emergencies or save act to ensure that the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention follow well-established measure. So that Covid nineteen vaccines meet rigorous standards that the public can rely on. The FDA and CDC Have Reading Vaccine Review Processes that are considered the gold standard by public health experts around the world. During the normal vaccine approval process, the CDC and FDA. Each have advisory committees that meet an issue findings and recommendations on the safety and effectiveness of vaccines before they enter the market including whether specific vaccines are safe for certain populations such as children or seniors. For, the Covid nineteen vaccine, however an expedited review process called an emergency use authorization is being used. There's never been an emergency use authorization for a new vaccine before, and it is important to ensure that any expedited review process does not come at the expense of safety and efficacy. By taking key oversight measures we can ensure the safety and effectiveness of a potential vaccine and promote transparency even during an expedited process by extension, we can also help bolster public confidence in the vaccine review process, as well as any vaccine product that enters the market, and however we have a lot of work ahead of US public trust in the vaccine approval process is critical to achieving widespread use and right now the public is sceptical. A CBS poll released in September found that two thirds of Americans would think the process had been rushed if a vaccine enters the market this year and only one in five plan to get vaccinated as soon as possible. Another poll from the Kaiser. Family Foundation showed that sixty two percent of Americans worry that political pressure will lead to premature approval of a vaccine. If a majority of Americans are unwilling to take a vaccine that vaccine will not be able to provide our communities with the protection that we need to return to normal life. We must make sure that doctors and public health experts are evaluating each vaccine as it is being reviewed and are providing feedback in a public transparent manner that is free from political influence. Doing so will help strengthen the safety of a vaccine and bolster the American people's confidence in it. At a recent health education labor and Pensions Committee hearing FDA Commissioner Dr, Steven Hahn and CDC Director Dr Robert Redfield committed that their respective agencies would conduct oversight measures including allowing their independent advisory committees to meet review data. An issue public findings is part of the expedited covid nineteen vaccine review process and addition and September. Leading covid nineteen vaccine manufacturers took an unprecedented step of jointly releasing a public pledge committing to an evidence based vaccine review process focused solely on safety and efficacy. We need to enshrine these committees into law. That's what the Save Act does. Our bipartisan bill codifies into law that these FDA and CDC Advisory Committee meetings must meet and report findings even if a covert vaccine goes through the expedited emergency use authorization process, and if these meetings do not occur the secretary of Health and human, services must publicly explain why. Our Bill will help ensure that a vaccine review process can take place in a transparent way free from political influence without slowing down its development, a safe and effective covid nineteen vaccine is the only way we will be able to fully reopen our economy and get back to our normal lives. Through this bipartisan legislation, we can help reassure Americans when a vaccine is available and that it's safe.
EP 073 - Seerah: Learning Lessons, How to Reflect, Reading Harry Potter - Ustadh Asim Khan
"Camila and he'll select what saddam didn't could eat eddie he was mind to saddam Review on welcome back to the infield podcast. Host should be hudson handed. I hope you'll dig well and keeping safe today. We have a guest who must allow is What we call hitting his hat trick on the on the podcast. 'cause this is fed periods. And that's exactly why it doesn't need any introduction. Masha llah It's our very own. Stop us on joining us this time of actually it said i'm ali consortium while they salamina the law and Doug missile three-time hatrick you get the hat trick. Bonus blades but how you doing okay. I'm very well and I really appreciate been given us all to sit with you. Get an shot lava in Interesting conversation cha thank you for taking the time. I guess i'm in a couple of things that are different from lost. You know the the Fest two times. I guess that you joined us. I guess the first thing is you will with us you know. We were together physically in the same space in the in the studio Now obviously because of events over the pasta zero so You know we have to connect remotely virtually in other words and the second difference. Is that in terms of what we're going to be discussing. Usually we talk about a lot right when we have discussions and today it's not directly related to the hold on. It's more going to be focused on the sierra which is interesting because We haven't we haven't yet on the on the podcast that we've done here had like a proper compensation on this era so i think it's a good opportunity to to get into the of course we've touched on aspects of it but not like a dedicated focus conversation on this year so that should be interesting and before we started recording. Ah realized that You recognize something in my bookshelf. That that we go. I'm pointing at right now. That's my salon salon. Book the heart of the on his commentary and so they seed and we. We are going to speak about books as well today. Write checks and we're gonna talk about some exciting new projects as well. Yes definitely in. Charlotte are super announcement to make Some point jolla. But you know what point you made it in the beginning about how things are different now right so meeting. Virtually and in many ways. There's lots of things got to lose out on the company of each other being one of them and the brotherhood that comes with it But i don't know if you know this but many many years ago i used to work as a pharmacy manager and it was part of a big corporation and read had this appraisal. So you sit down with the guy who's aligned manager took about what you're gonna and talk about what you know other challenges i think is particularly correct that these so basically he the by lineman's game piece of advice and When he said it. That's pretty deep actually and during this whole lockdown and pandemic time that we've been going through that has been ringing in my mind. So basically what he said was awesome. Was what makes a successful business wasn't number one quality that makes us successful business and i was like this that and he's like no. It's actually the ability to adapt house. I interesting he goes yet. Look we're in a crowded marketplace And things are changing all the time and small changes If you don't keep up with them you get left behind very quickly. As a cutthroat business say goes if we adapt continuously to the changes that we will be we will be successful and economic of the business mind and putting that into maybe a spiritual place. I think that looking up. The prophecy salaam for example is a real manifestation of this like you think about how his life began when he's reaching age of fourteen which is usually the comfort zone for many people. He's williston upside down. He's made a profit of law and a messenger to humanity and people that loved him. No hate him. And he's got the way to the world on his shoulders and he doesn't crumble sapan he adepts and every day today because things didn't stay the same from that day until the day passes away twenty three years later What days of loss of sorrow of fighting of dealing with abuse of you know. Unbelievable things happen during his life. So feel like this pandemic Though this so much negativity when you think about it yeah also and there's a lot. There's a lot of positivity we can take chrome especially on that perspective of how the adapt is probably how you succeed point about to adopt ability. Actually i think that's really the only way i guess because you know we. We don't really have much power to change things around us. is only really what what's directly in front of us that we can So yeah really interesting employed. I mean since we're on the topic of sierra and and we're going to be discussing that quite a bit today. What i wanted to start off with kind of putting you on the spot and asking you like what you know story or hot of the sierra the ups nutty like stands out the most is like one of your favorites. And i just wanted to start with that. And i know this is such a broad question and so many things going through your mind but it's like one that really stands out for you even if it's like currently particularly at this point in time and let's just like discussing reflect on that it so obviously the passing settled is one of the most emotional engaging aspects of the sierra. You could read and reread it. And every single time it gets every single time you learn something chrome it But for me the most spectacular moments in the sierra are the moments where the person is very sensitive situations in a very delicate manner. And we don't really see this. I feel like people don't appreciate the cleverness of the profits of the law. Are they selling so for me. One of the estimating parts of the sealer is where he is how he dealt with a sufian he has so i was so fion- for the longest part he was arch enemy of the process. Settlement the needle and He accepted islam. Begrudgingly so long story short. The have made a treaty with the data that we know fighting there will be peace and the cordish broke that treaty. Should they be a but between the time of peace until the time they broke it. The tide changed In favor of the muslims and the numbers increased exponentially so when the broke it. They realized that they had made a big mistakes sufiane. He gets on his camel at. He goes to medina almost like a beggar to plead with the process to reenact the peace treaty but the process them gives them the cold shoulder and no only could give him the cold shoulder and up definitely getting the cold shoulder and daughter gave him the cold shoulder right so then he goes back and he's like win a world of trouble. Everyone's ten we don. What do we do so What happens is that eventually the muslims arrived at mika at the head of an nominal. Ten thousand likes a witch the repentance that have the seen before jan realized look the time has come but even he begrudgingly taken to the person by bus uncle. The person an independent a conversation ensues way by arming dale. Okay ready to you know Inflict pain and punishment obesity on for everything wrong. His done his life at of bus is there is a peacebroker and the person is there To see what is a salon one. Did you want to accept a somebody. They don't accept assam and he's dithering okay so What happens is that an argument breaks helps and it's very volatile and person will come back to tomorrow. Okay so they have the night to cool down. And then the next day of comes with our bus and he still Dithering and so the person comes up to him and he struck somebody's chest and he says what's the matter with. You has the time come now for you to accept your fate and then observe yan. He says half of Okay as if to say. I can't really say the second half of this that you are missing alana. That point i boston's against him and said listen. This is the final straw. Don't use your chance. And then he says okay suda right and so he's become a slim. I'm almost under compulsion if you think about it But then of course something which is ingenious right so his on of she's going to go back to his people and his basic have to deal with humiliation like you our leader. You went that you become a muslim like what did you do. So the person recognizing the fan is a man who enjoys prestige and leadership. He factors that into his advising says. Listen you're going to go back to people but when you go back to them you can tell them that. Whoever goes to your house and outside your house will be safe. It'll be under your protection. You'll be given the honour of people being able to seek shota in your home and in your company and so he goes away but still an element of leadership given to him by the person except that now under the banner with slumped. Small things like that. It really get him because it shows how for some you know. He has so many qualities wisdom and knowledge and the ability to read the room. The ability to You know judge people based on the life experiences and then to manifest in behavior and in a piece of a device etc so for me. That's one of those surrealism while likes of handled. And there's lots of mr obese. Yeah that's amazing is actually using when you think about it for me you know. I was actually out actually had a class the other day. But i was teaching. And like the that you'll mentioning is more like towards the end of the sierra right. So the one that stands out for me is that i think maybe it's because i just i was just reading it again. The other day is actually more towards the beginning. In fact you could argue. It was wide. Everything was like happening in mukai whilst muslims radiates in a smaller number. It's the journey of this one. Particular man. this one particular. Companion fatty dhillon senior. Like his reading his story like he went from one of the land to another part of the lion seeking. The truth is quest for knowledge and then off all that like years and years go by and now he's been enslaved right and he went from one religion to another religion especially and he had to leave his own family behind the sacrifice that he made and then he ends up in. You know what has been described to him By one of the priests if you want to go to this land that there's gonna be lots of data on trees and so on it's between volcanic rocks and he's describing medina right time. You know and policies like awful lot sacrifice he aids he was so close but then you know he gets enslaved but still takes him to that. Land right the land of the arabs. And then it's just amazing how the story history and then meanwhile the muslims migrating timothy and arriving and him hearing the news that does this message of that arrived in this land and he gets taken to the nfl and he finally meets the numminen confirms his identity for me is like every time i read that story. It gives me goosebumps because you know like it took him years to find the truth and he was really like sincere and i was like a student of knowledge. I can relate to that a lot. Because i think for me. It's like how much sacrifice he may just to seek knowledge essentially. That's what he was trying to do right to find interest. I do know he went from one of the world's when other part of the world under so much difficulty and today you know we have we have you can go online and study. Cool says can will outside and you've got massage right. We take for granted like yeah. It's easy and even then we complain arts but wifi connection. You know i'm feeding bullets now. It's not what they say that. What makes a great stories. Actually the weaving together of many different narratives. So if you look at the top trending netflix's traumas or something like that. You'll find the ones that really get like the black blockbuster type of you ship the other films with the dramas that have lots of characters lives stories into we've together and then each one is a fascinating when they all come together is like mind right. And that's that's one reason why the seat is so spectacular you've got the life and the journey of the person but then all of his companions and each one of them has the own story and then his wife and they will have their own stories and the story of the month is vo as a community in and that's one of the reasons why the sea is in a way one of the greatest of the great story that anybody anybody could read about because of the detail that we have about all the different use the word characters but you know these are these are heroes in inside the story. Yeah you know like you mentioned the story that you mentioned more. I guess focuses on like one of the leadership skills of the process and right leash qualities and it. I think like that's another really important and really interesting aspect of this is quite fascinating that you can kind of like look at the with the different lens and each time you can pick up something new so again like just from the leadership perspective If you're a community leader whatever it may be just look at the sierra and identify all the times of the process unlike before and after right in mecca medina where he displayed bravery courage dealership right authority etc. And then like you can do that with pretty much everything so like one thing that i was looking again recently. Is you know just the marriage of the process. And the way that he was man at either as a husband as a father the way he was with his wives at home and will the reports narrations of show that salem oregon you learn so much just from that perspective actually a bookstore. Few months ago. And i just found around booking advocates something like Hiatt nebi slicer lemzo jenn. It's just a book on as a husband. I don't know just really random book us interesting like a whole book of him. Just as a and i think don't you think that's another really interesting aspect like pinpointing one area aspect of looking at it like one hundred percent. I mean the process of them. He's full first and foremost messenger of allah. So he has this capacity of being the spiritual leader of humanity but also he's a father also Husband also he's a counselor also. He's in a friend also and the list goes on and on top of that. He's the greatest example of that person in that capacity so You know it's just and that's why they lost monte carlo confused. He was on hasson. That you have in the you know in a log. The will sweat when hassen the most perfect example. Yeah the ways of translating that but the word sweat so his the object of imitation. So unless they're saying that in the in the process of them we have somebody who you should imitate. And if you did you'd be imitating the best version of that thing and that's why you you could see the as a father and an aspire to his goals and become degrades father in your own at the same as as a counselor same as a friend etc etc so for example like in business We don't really see the president as a businessman. I'm but you. May you probably wear this in in medina minora. I think if you're facing Facing towards the fibula outside the mustard on the right hand side there's a marketplace which in two years ago still there called soup on monarch this is one of the marketplaces established by the process of them. When he first arrived up on the story goes that he he saw that most of them occupational dominated by the jewish communities and they practiced interest as well as other things which the person didn't look very favourably some the practice cheating defrauding cetera et cetera. He came to this one marketplace known super manat and he said this will be your marketplace and he said whoever sets up shop here will not have to pay tax right and just think about how amazing that is when you think about today for example how people flock to the bay to sell business because intuit because after penny tax write and do bay then becomes this place in the middle of the desert everyone to go to like. What's the secret debate. Low-tax okay many many years ago and sleman arca became the marketplace the overpowered and dominated old other marketplaces medina. And apparently they said the in saudi arabia. They have this decree that will that that marketplace will not be removed or destroyed or replaced by anything else. But when i went last year there was some there was some renovation where commotion steuben established a remarkably debase officer that but yeah charlie will come back when you can go and see so shallow interesting. Actually you know something that we've mentioned At the beginning. I think i said like this. Podcast isn't directly related to the koran right. I it's funny because like anytime you go through. The i always ask my students so whilst like the first source for sierra and they're like i dunno is suitable. Heidi is it. Like you know. Tidy abidi is even shown i actually know. It's on like the on his film with the ceiling. Because when you. I guess the mutual a the koran is that when you you can view it from the lens of the sierra because essentially every revelation that was sent was during the lifetime of celeb- whether he was at mckelway whether he was in medina many of the vessels in fact like direct. You know like responses to set an set an incidence right like you know. Sort of twigs onto arba right. What happened with all metal and then like mockery. And then you've got medina after budder hoods one of the investors being reviewed adding ron etc etc again. That's that's pretty amazing right like when you look at that way from the from the point of view you can actually pick up a lot so in fact yeah we we would say that the first source of sierra like In everything is you sought from the on and then you go to or agriculture the koran by the people on where of this point you just made that the one the primary source of sierra is the on but not only does a quote on the superior have a superiority over the other sources because the world of law because the accuracy precision and the preservation but also because the koran can give you a perspective that nobody else can reason being is because loss can see into the minds and the hearts of the people that were going through those tribulations and then relate to us so right. Now what you'll think in one thinking is unknown to anyone so no one could sit here and write about our podcast and communicate the thought that mind but when you open the on refined regardless of the the battle of the trench where the muslims were besieged and loss or better hulu will hanage that your heart let into your throats that is the level of fair that you feeling and you start to have weird thoughts. Los says what they'll do that. You had forced that lunch. We don't really befitting in on you like could never have known except the la told me and so yeah. The koran being social seal is actually is actually second to none except except that is not laid out chronologically. You know in chapters and things like that but for sure somebody wants to learn. Pseudo needs to focus on the on and see what like some sort of are known like you know. Sort through so the unfiled. Your funds a lot of narration about the battle of butter on refined lot to do with Up obviously to do with the battle by sub But this is many many other sewers that capshaw adamant send insights of the yeah. It's the that's the thing about the cloud. i think. Also the fact that his timeless so you may think okay. It's a response to the muslims up so that full. It's maybe dislike specific to them. I guess you know like it doesn't. I can't really relate to that. Because i didn't partaken in all right Viking that's something that's beautiful about the koran is actually when you look at the way that it's been phrased is actually you can find yourselves in similar situations. Okay it's not the same as But you know when you will facing defeat for example you when you're dealing with loss for example like one that stands out is those ten vests is from sort of knew for example that ramirez in response to the whole eslava made against is show them on. Because it's not saying specifically this is only to do with isha Name bekker's name right. It is general kind of like really. I would say strong advice. Given to the muslims about things like watching your tongue writer and then you apply that to like the digital age for example completely different time. Actually it's like it's you can landed same thing we're allies saying things like you know. Why did it. you know what's useful. It was such an insignificant thing who are in the. it's actually a really severe. Create thing that you've done the apply today and you're like okay. You know. I should be catholic before type before i send before i slander. So don't you think that's another amazing aspect of it. No one hundred percent and you know the reading the seat off from that lens of learning life lessons is a very powerful approach to take. Especially when you're reading about life of the person who came to teach you to live your life the can to teach you how to do with your own personal dilemmas and going into seattle books especially in the english language you find that majority So i will let me just preface this because in two thousand twelve i balked project known as the politic timeline and the idea was to basically create a resource website thereafter out which in essence was an interactive seat off the prophets of the law and click things open up and always kinda crazy stuff basically and Through the course of that journey. I had to read basically every single english resource on the out there that time. What was the la times passed by got accustomed to reading english. Works and one of the things quickly realized that most your books do not talk about the lessons that you learn from what happened is just about what happened and you like okay. That's amazing. But what do i take from that person level but then the other books that do go into what lessons you learn. But then i found that. Those books like encyclopedic is so much read is intimidate is like three volume book. Two volume book. And unless you're like someone who's gonna appetite reading you probably going to get bit lost even bubble so I think the needs to be a little bit of a revision. Stu okay why. Why are we studying ways. The whole objective behind it. What do i want to take away from it because otherwise it would just be a story that we grow up learning and nothing more than that which would be a terrible loss. Yeah yeah that's the thing. I think you're right in terms of resources and that's a huge one so this two things. The first thing i think is what you mentioned about lessons Which is a huge aspect of sierra. Like you said it can just become like bedtime stories as amazing that you know the story of the elephant. Whatever it might be right. Oh wow edison. They were destroyed. And that's that's kind of it and we just like that the happened once upon a time and but you never actually think about okay. But what's the significance behind that event and is interesting. I think it was yourself schiff. Actually that you tweeted them recently about you know husband the of sorrow and kind of like carrots like the that we've been through right So stuff like that. I think we're not doing enough when it comes to the cli. Especially where okay. We read a book. We listen to what we don't actually go back and think related to our time related to our struggles. So how you know. I i question before we move onto like resources. How could we do that. Let's say someone's self landing right. How was a good way of reflecting reflecting over koran is one thing reflecting of a sealer how would you say is a good way to go about i think is all about mindset. So if you read the seat or even whether it's a very detailed one whether it's simple the minds of the this is designed to teach me something and it's going to teach me something which is a beneficial and something which is going to empower me and when you now read wherever you gonna read. That chapter automatically start to not. I wouldn't say read into things where you can see. There's something that. I could take away from that. That relate to my life is just because you're reading it from a different perspective. I'll give an example so we all know the story where the where the revelation began. The person in that cave showed up by himself nighttime he senses the presence of another person. It doesn't know who it turns out to be alice. Saddam and the dvd. You know He shocked supporters By commodity him to do something and then when he caught it he said that he he hugged me. Embrace me so tight bella. Menial a reached and mine jerks. Which means i was going to pass out basically and whenever i think of that always think about you. Don't eat. they even have the on khuda a hug tight like his old anymore. And so then. I i think to myself ok slap at once and then you know to read again for some amount of dakota. I'm not of those read again. He holds him and who is debris. Allies like seriously vocal at in eighteen. Los as about him that he is has immense power is the one who the tip of his wing destroyed the nation of loot bike. Who we talking about here so. He grabs him again criticism again. Don't you think to yourself. Why why the person through pain. Why do that to him. Why you know. Send him into a shock because when he left the cave he his heart was pounding into his wife. You know. cover me because we all know. But let's pause okay. Maybe that the president was being put through a little bit of pain and difficulty to give an insight into what the future is going to be like from now on in things are going to be difficult in order to be easy. Maybe the person was also being shown that look if you want to thrive in need to toughen up if you want to be someone great. You got to know how to deal with hardships. And you're like okay. So i look at my so maybe as a father i children. Shouldn't i be teaching them to be a bit more robust to be a bit more You know thick skinned to be a bit more You know allow us to difficulty and hardship as opposed to know making life easy for the soft and cozy and you know because that its problems. Okay so now you learning from the process ellen how to be a father when you're deciding about high receive revelation dc. An thing is. There's no right and wrong here as long as what you read is accurate and you understood it. According to the plane since the meeting supplanter la this so much you can take away from it at. Who am i to say no that strong. You'd say no that's wrong. That's not correct reflection going around and telling people this is what we learn is a personal thing and humbly la and now reading the sita. It just takes on another level nagging city. I'll hang on a minute. What do we live from the snow. Do we live from that now. And how deep how much you can take no. Yeah exactly. that's us the thing. I think it's not personal aspect. You know your personal reflections. I think that's something that you relate to more than others might be exam colome. Something like forgiveness for example like processing. He goes still. If we will know that incident will happen you went. And the way that he came out to you. Know he was like mediated. He was sad he was covered with blood but he still he didn't. He didn't take revenge on those people. But in fact like you fast forward almost a decade later. He's watching with the muslims larger number after the caucus going towards that same land right We know we know what happens after that Even if it's like you know it medina you have villains in the story. Right if you vince. Like even central And the the lead of the hypocrites know everything that he puts. The process like the slot is show that we mentioned he was like the guy that started to hold off when he passes away. The process actually shows respect and once to actually he. He wants to even pray for him and seek his forgiveness. Even though were to that But i think you know a former personal devin you could turn around and say well. Actually you know i. I've been holding onto this one thing against like a family member for quite some time. And i think about the sierra. That's actually really petty. And i could just full go. That just forgiven. Just build a relationship with them again and that's your personal reflection. You see what i mean so yeah know what you just did is because you've read the entirety of the you can connect the dots and you can compare like person in the beginning. He he you know he didn't take revenge over the people five but then a few years later. He's he's waging military campaign against people five site. How do reconsolidate. Yeah so i think is a low of us. We may know glimpses. But we haven't read those and that's why we with with the justice because when you go the whole picture okay now you in a place to analyze the life of the process them and to Take guidance in a holistic way so for example like Jimmy butler butler. In a process of them he chose to not to execute the prisoners of war but to brunson them. And so we find that. There's a personal ponta said that that wasn't right. It shouldn't have done that. You like i brought through our unless it. Massive mankind allies. saying no. You shouldn't have franson them. You should should've kept going option. One and by the option one was the option of armored bog. Fire relate yes not see like mean that's interesting but later on a fertile maka okay person is coming to mika all the people that you tortured. His followers tried to assassinate him kicked him off his land unless pumped wants to forgive them any forgives them and he says. I'll seiichi what my brother use set to. His brothers led the three valley. There will be no blame on you today and you think in okay. So how do we square this up. So the beginning was no kill. Them out of the end is like no forgive. Them is because it's not actually about what you're gonna gain of. The circus on is islam stands to gain bundle random muslims on a weakness people perceive islam to be weak incapable of enacting justice. Now on the at the federal mce qassam mockup. Muslims are strong. Everyone knows their superpower. Now if they forgive that adds to their power and prestige so islam stands to gain from act of forgiveness. But those kind of dots. You can't connect them unless you read the wholesale. Yeah exactly that's what do yeah definitely after reading the wholesale. I think that's i guess the coming back to what we talking about resources right. What one could argue that. Okay fine like i. I get i should be reading the halsey of i know that's important but for me it's like like you said i i don't open up a book which is like two three volumes long. I excite on access the classic attacks. Okay whatever is available in english. It's like either written the old english or even the more modern ones. I don't know like. I just can't i can't relate to it so so is i mean what's the what we what we ought six of that like we just say can study under shared something like that studied study under teacher. They might say i don't have time me. Just do my own time. I to like a a podcast on the recent books. So let's what's the solution to the. I mean Top question. i remember in the beginning reading seon About you and this is the book was he also use read it. So reading the first couple of chapters about the lineage of the arabs about how they would marry women and devos them i think in slovak the process of them and because people this is you need to read. This book is the okay. I'll flowed along until i get to. You know the the interesting stuff basically the stuff that really want to know about the homeland. Unlock a state motivate to get to that stage looking back like seriously. Why was the learning about the the lineage of the arabs for walls learning about how the of nine women and there's on academic level yes interesting but on a regular muslim want to connect with a person level. It's an obstacle. That's actually putting off. And so i thought okay. Maybe it was too. Academic books didn't go to something shorter. Go something more concise. So i'm going to book on the read from continuously who the ultras but it's in total deceitful. Book is one hundred pages long so it's one of the ones and like most books in english. They use translations translations of arabic books or translations of the works all other languages. So let's let's read and shallow something so those who know that when the poisonous gems of politics in crept in the system of the world and society became like a sick buddy a lotteries mercy center reformer and compassionate surgeon said. You had the app. This commenced treatment of every single organ vein and fiber for fifty. Three years continuously during the diseased organs. Soon so i mean with all due respect probably about translation selection of over it so but if you'd be led to believe the hype about sierra and then you read the book you're going to have questions in your mind thinking maybe i'm just a bad person and i can't connect with the seattle but in reality is porous. Okay now. here's the real kicker. I've got a book by karen armstrong. Okay and i had to read this book cover to cover. When i was a research for the perfect time line and you know. She's an almost oversee tons of accuracy in terms of Refer referring back to the classical islamic sources Is going to be some questions right but when you read it like this is much more interesting. Okay so let's read little bit or what she says okay so This is around about the passing of the person she said when he returned to the off to the farewell pilgrimage muhammad began to experience incapacitating headaches. I should remember that one day. She was lying in her apartment with a headache herself. Oh my head. She moaned when mohammed came in. Nay aisha he replied it is own my head but at this stage. He was still able to tease jennifer. How would i should like to die before he did. It would give him the chance to take into his arms at the graveside and give her a lovely funeral is replied with us. You off of the few knew he would go straight off to sleep. One of his other wives may iza muhammad said as he left the it is. Oh my head so you think in so i should. Ceo from anonymously to do that. I don't know whether it's accurate or not. So herein lies the problem that we need to to fill the point. Basically the resources. I mean the sources of seila clearly for us in this sham and even recent works but we need to ri- version of the seal easy to read engaging and basically highlight some of those key critical listens that really impacted us person and make them feel like i'm connected to the prophets to the law. There's gonna. yeah. That's i'm glad you actually read like some real life. Examples is much better than just saying like this is this is what's available out there. But now i said his name same struggles like you know the the way that you said. Like the beginning of nafta for example great book But like you said like when. I first started reading house. Like i don't know i don't know if ceo's thing like this stuff like genealogy tribes and stuff like custody i'm just not into that You know like when. I'm teaching ceelo now. One thing i try and do because because i haven't found like one book that does it. All so i do now is like if we for example discussing one aspect that says conquest of mecca. I will take extracts from different books and then presented students read a bit so i guess that's that's made it easy but that's that's for me as a teacher with you. I have read it. And i have studied under a teacher. I've been through a now. Because i've got access these books but of course someone who's beginning sierra like when i thought i could never do that i can ever be okay. Mean ten bucks at the same time so I guess that brings us onto a project that yourself michelle i involved with In terms of simplifying. The sierra which i think is overdue to be completely honest with you like. It's something that we need to be done so tennis. A bit about what. The project is called what it's about. What the vision isn't sharla as i. I've got feeding that a lot of our viewers and listeners. Would this would interest for sure. Okay so this product is called the simple seattle and as the title suggests is An ambition Which already begun to write a version of the sealer which is to read engaging factually accurate but also highlighting some of those key stadium type of life lessons in particular. We're going to ride with the young audience in mind so This idea i. She didn't come from me to came from My friend and colleague tours meal you know tourists right so this was actually his idea. What do you pitch two meals like. are you sure. There's no book how they already like. He's like don't think so. I was like i'm on a minute. You're right there isn't actually anything on that level now. The thing is a small market. You know young. Muslims are fair enough to the young muslims. Read to sit there. Like i love the process of because of this book. That's amazing but i realized that if you write a book that young people like to read everyone's gonna read a number of going to read it. The older read it because he's just people unfortunately the reading habits. Let's say like that have changed dramatically so immediately. I thought to myself if we do this put the simple sierra residency which is easy to read engaging fun highlighting those amazing lessons from the process of them inch lot it will potentially change people's lives because i remember when i finished reading the cfo. For the very first time. I was proline. Tis and i just was like after being moved. I felt frustrated and almost angry. Like why my reading about the seattle Off to so many is laying however taken this long for why it was like a hidden gem that should have been inside maha but for some reason. It was on a bookshelf. All these years. And i had no idea. And there's only since that time to know that cdot readings he has become like in one of the most beautiful experiences at something that you can do Over and over again. So that's what we're gonna do. And then i think in charlotte to make it even easier to be products us it. We want to make into audiobook. Not a lot of people are big fans of audio book and so the way we are writing. This is in charleena where that will lend itself to to make very engaging audiobook so basically gonna excuse simpson. Johnny i think the title itself just you know suggests house this infancy right It's not even a complicated title leafy does what it says. I think yeah like you said that it's interesting that hasn't yet been done And that's why i said it's overdue now because you know something with younger audience in mind With the lessons with authenticity with the simplicity as well understand a digestible. I think that is definitely what's missing. So no i think that's super exciting. So how's it going to look. Is it because. I mean likely said right sierras. Lots of content is one whole book or is it going to be split into different books. How how way so. We're going to probably do two volumes Muck and era that the medina compa then but the The real challenge is obviously not in a being factually accurate. Because humble we've got lots of resources that lay out exactly what happened or the differences of opinion dates the names and everything else the real challenges actually the style in which is supposed to be written okay so into secret secret anymore I'm actually reading the harry potter series with the expressed view of seeing how we can stylistically make the seal an unbelievably engaging rate. And i'll be honest. I hate reading harry. Pau honesty In terms of benefit is just to see how the all star gets you to imagine what happened. And i think that is the trick if you can. Stylish to learn how to allow people to imagine What took place now. The sita's unforgettable at you've probably seen the message right. I don't know if you saw the film. The mr bronze people are have right. And i don't know if you have that thing where you reap something else and you're like i could. I could see that happening. Because it's that bother basically isn't it like when they come to the cave when the put some percent of hiding inside the cave they lean over to look inside the images etched in your mind because of that felt right. So i'm trying to a briton. The first chapter already And it's one of the scenes that we tried to depict it's as possible is the The story of when he came with his army the army and elephant warriors to try to destroy the cab and use like a passing type of policy. You know just okay. Vacating destroyed and move on. That's one person was born. But if you think about it that is a great scene to think and imagine what the ground would have a shook like. You know what the army's how would fled. How the birds came and then threw down although stones and how people broke play. Some people are like it's almost like a movie type of thing so just about okay. These are the details. We know this happened but let's try to read at how possibly would've unfolded okay all that language and style and now you're like yeah i can see it now happening and if that happens through the whole show. We'll have a very very nice because in shallow us. It's interesting 'cause like you said. The i guess the most successful books nowadays are the ones that most of them are being adopted into into films movies. Right in hollywood The i guess it comes down to the author themselves right credit to those because if they had written in such descriptive language and open the doors to your imagination in that way. Then there's no way you could have tended into film but that's a really difficult thing to do right so i think to do that with the of course not because we want to turn into yourself to be able to connect with the augusta. Correct what we have to. We have to be gift with the territory and get it is to bring people on step closer to the processor them with all of his glory and is on sheriff on everything else not to take away of of course. So it's it's it's gonna take a little oversight from other colors and you know people have knowledge to say actually even though that's very different we can run. Shaw there's nothing wrong with that. And in fact that's a that's an asset to the body of what we have on the seattle so With your support and the house we hope to get there very soon in shall law so. This is something that i would love to be involved with. Somehow i know that is in. China paternity for for everyone to be involved whether it's to to preorder right. That's one thing or whether it's actually support it. Because i can only imagine the time of the f. the resources That takes into actually not. We're not talking about the final product the publishing of the book. But even the actually the entire process right going into to make something of that really. Like you said hasn't been done before so of course time efforts. You know resources find financially does a lot going into this right So how can we in trou- able to support this so that we can kind of speed up the process getting this out not that it's gonna take the quality speed up in times of phillips. Come down to desperate living in. It does come down to things like finances right in the one. So how how can we support in trouble. Getting this stuff okay. So you're right is gonna cost lie specially wanted it professionally and what we want to do is not just right. We want to have some illustrations inside pages and some diagrams wherever we can just to elevate as much as possible and you know how people are when it comes to pitches and diagrams and books as is tend to go to first right and then the ticks off towards so we we want to do everything on a very professional level went also you want to produce a set of the of the book of the copies of the book rather to go into old the slamming schools. You know up and down the country then into europe and across the world in charlotte. Who knows right. We go ambitions to do that. So we the set targets okay and we've started the january one of the chapters already been written the way everyone can get involved is actually just by pre ordering the copy. I'm pretty sure when you hit the market. You're going to want to get it anyway. But if you were to create now nonni would you get it in the beginning but also you'd be directly supporting the production of that works. So it'd be like a a sadaqa jerry. You know you get your book but at the same time you support the works of whoever else it goes on to touch and benefit shallow. They get a share of that as well. So i think the site. The link is launch could dot com votes less cdo and believe it can preorder the copy as chana accident launch dot com for full slash Off so that's really exciting. In child la. I'm fascinated with you pumped to to to to have a look at this in lesser. Yeah this is. I guess You know full Everyone listening please get involved. It's an amazing opportunity and involved. Meaning like you get your copyright co essentially ordering it from now and helping the process route. So we'll we'll of course share the link as well so that everyone can access that as easily as possible and yeah. I think it's it's it's a super exciting project chef and them. You know i'm sure you yourself are excited about it. I'm you mentioned like two volumes. Most like the mark medina with. I think that's a that's a really good way of studying the seal as well. 'cause you something you mentioned earlier on about Not not reading you know only having glimpses of the sierra the whole picture and i think when you look at it from like the muck and thus is the medina era and then you kind of compan- contrast like what the situation of the muslims even in terms of like you know the expectations of them. You know the ruling swigs on for like you don't really see much salah Fostering in lucca foss. Dina is like you know five. Eighty prayers jomaa. Now you've got crm. Now you've got this and that is released like you know things have changed. What has changed. I guess it's the development of the community even in terms of establishing themselves in their own faith and eamonn like they've had time to prepare. I think when you look at the seal of that way for me passing. I benefited a lot. Doing it is kind of mind with the reason. Why doing this. But the institute. Yeah i mean one of the reasons obviously to make a distant more easier to read Another reason to help us to produce the book is worry about. The one added a second later on But also because stark contrast between the themes and the circumstances of the muslims face in maka versus the needham now obviously classically low of zero books were named allot which means a military expeditions. And the focus was on the walls and the battles in the great fights and everything goes to happen for most of us. Guys that is the most exciting policy to read the muck and then becomes overshadowed. We're like okay. Let me move onto the other. Because that's the real you know on the in reality. No in the modern era. They are so many things to learn a person in this hall of his life he he suffered a lot to do with the low of loss abuse hatred tennessee Amongst many other things and if you think about your own life those some of the struggles that you face as a human being on a daily basis as well. So here's the thing. Would you learn about the person. The immediate impact is increases. You in your love for him and then the of loving more is that he wants to learn about more okay. So you fall into this amazing upward cycle of learning and loving loving learning etc etc and so the muck an era it does create that love and especially. Because think about like. When does a colleague become a friend. I was thinking about this. The other one does a clinic. Co-ceo brother yeah. I know always your and he's like you said that right so like when does it become a friend. There's probably when you get to learn about him about where he comes from but he does is personality will him laugh makes him sad and the when you get an insight into those aspects of this person than they most probably across the line to become french either so my point here is the full. We love the person but when you learn about made him love omeday him cry and a loss experienced in his life and achievements that he had joel in that immediate impact is that you'll love him would increase in all and that's that's probably one of the most Powerful reasons to read the seal of the prophets Is does connect you with him. And and give you that kind of You know he's my profit and wendy becomes joe prophet. You're down with his cruise. Okay because that's what. His mission was a cause. And i think for muslims with muslim and we see ourselves as the fall of the process of them as followers of the person. But we don't see us as being called his clothes and was like he had his mission his cause and you know where muslims that connection isn't immediately they really down for the struggles of the processor Even though those struggles still here with us today. So that does kind of weap- way that misconception the interesting of looking at it but no i think One thing i would say is that you know. Of course we're really excited for the simple seattle and in charlotte Praying for it. Tell us as just one thing we can do is is make product and crunchy learned. This endeavour endeavouring charlotte. Bless it And you know my advice would be like okay. We're waiting for this amazing work. But in the meantime that doesn't mean that lee stop frightening still whatever we have this as you know. We can't say there's not a lot out there still right. There's still lots of literature. Lots of lectures online etc but stood whatever. You can get get something right. I mean yard percent right. I mean with this is not going to be the one and only type of work on the seattle this economy. I mean it shouldn't be It will never be. The fact is that we need to get people heading in that direction of connecting with the seal of the person especially the younger generation. Like it's embarrassing. They could name all the characters. In harry pau yulon reading astakhov remember the characters and they will be able to run the names of ten companions of the postal Like where are we going and all. That's embarrassing type of situation. We're finding ourselves in so my advice is it comes reading the cto Have a beginner. Intermediate and advance level plan. Basically and you know you can stall for something which is a very short work like. I recommend the Dr jonathan browns very smooth. If he's seen a concise version of the sierra. I think it's folks have personal yet is very small very nice and you read that and you've got a very well written don't detailed glimpse into the whole of the sierra. Okay and then you can move on like a one volume work There's so many to choose from And then you can move onto like the two hundred three months and with that kind of plan you can ease your way into becoming A solid top student of the ceelo definitely. I think that's a good action plan to end with mashallah But yeah thanks so much. I've really really Enjoyed dislike just sitting here and just reflecting over some policy. Ought i just love doing that. And in the more that we can read into it and land because as you know. It's one of those things that you have to keep reading so much detail. So many lessons that So yeah you know bless you. Thank you listening. Company of of people like yourselves. We can't we can't meet each other. But toon shallow shah vaccine throw. Obviously you can hear me. Christmas is good so one of the benefits as good as a good sign of the but yeah thank you chef and depth once again. A reminder the link is launched a dot com forward slash seila so please support the project For myself should be from us. That's we have time for but Shallow would see you again very very soon. Take care of yourselves and receive next time. Saddam idaho while equal salama. hit him.
Election Meltdown, Part 5
"Is a crisis. Only when it's in Iowa it's a crisis when it's any city and county around the country and it's a problem that's far too pervasive to report communities of color like fine wine. You know a good election takes time. Maybe we'll have to wait a day or two introduce transparency and accountability into these sort of Algorithms of exploitation and manipulation which is for their bottom lines bad for democracy. It's not actually that difficult to find any number of opportunities to get involved. What you're interested in is helping. People exercise the most fundamental right that we have high an welcome to amicus and the fifth and final part of our election meltdown series. I'm quick and this past Wednesday night. I had the extreme honor and privilege of being joined onstage by a voting rights and Election Integrity Dream Team former Florida gubernatorial candidate Andrew Gillum MacArthur Genius Fellow Daniel Citron the ACLU's Dale Ho. And of course. Rick has him sleep. Plus members are going to have access to an extended director's cut of this live. Show if you're not asleep plus member yet be sure to check it out at slate dot com slash amicus plus and. I WANNA take a minute to think slate plus members because their support is actually the reason we were able to bring you this special series in the first place. We promised our live show would offer solutions spoiler. There are no short term quick fixes. But you're going to hear a lot about things. We can all do things that shore up public faith and confidence in our elections and help us avoid the election meltdown. This whole series has been sounding the alarm about one more thing. There's a bit of a recurring visual joke. That goes throughout the show. So there was this rather lovely little rug On the set and it became the place where we metaphorically through all of our worries and concerns and nightmare scenarios. So that's what the rug references. It's just the repository of everybody's fears make sense now. Good with that we head to Washington. Dc for an election meltdown. Hi there Washington DC. Thank you those of you who've been listening along as we've been doing this election meltdown series asking ourselves the seemingly complicated new question. Can American democracy even survive the twenty twenty election? We're hoping to find some actions. Some real solutions some rallying cries that will allow us to say hell. Yeah we're going to thrive and survive and be better after twenty twenty election. And here's how we're going to do so. I'm going to be joined here on stage by a brain trust. That is like no other. That is going to help us. Hack this little problem and I want you to welcome each of the amazing guests. We have here tonight. So I'm about to be joined by Andrew Gillum. He is the former mayor of Tallahassee. Florida the former Democratic nominee in eighteen chore of the Election in Florida and since his narrow defeat in that election is focused his efforts on voter registration. Founding Forward Florida action to that end. Please help me welcome Mayor Andrew dealing. We're going to bring on Danielle Citron. She is a professor of law at Boston. University School of law where she teaches and writes about privacy free speech and civil procedure. She's also at twenty nine t macarthur genius fellow and she is Vice President of these Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. Please join me in welcoming Danielle citric next we bring on Dale Ho. He and director of the ACLU's voting rights project he supervises the ACLU's voting rights litigation. Dale has active cases in over a dozen states right now throughout the country he argued the census case before the US Supreme Court and he argued Fish Veto Bach in Kansas. A case that we've talked about an awful lot in this election meltdown series. Please join me in welcoming the wonderful Dale hope last. Uc Irvine law professor. Rick Hassen he has been my copilot for this series. He's the author of the Book Collection. Meltdown which this series has been based and he has been or election law Sherpa through ALPA series. Thank God Ladies and gentlemen join me in welcoming the wonderful passing rick. Let's start with you. I'm sure everyone's listened to every second of the last few weeks. But can you remind us of why we're all sitting here? What it is that we were doing and why we undertook to do it in February before the election. What are we looking at here? Well I think this is. I think this is an easier conversation to have. Thanks to the Iowa. Democratic Party which illustrates how many things could go wrong in In an election and in the book election meltdown I talk about why trust in American elections is declining. People are worried that their votes are not going to be fairly and accurately counted a recent. Npr study found that over forty percent of the public is worried that their votes are not safe and secure and so the purpose of the book and the purpose of our podcast series is to ask. Why is this happening and more importantly what can we do to make it better? And so the book went through and the first four episodes of the series went through four reasons why trust in American elections is declining first voter suppression efforts that have been passed in mostly Republican states. That have convinced Republicans. That voter fraud is a major problem. Even though it's not convinced Democrats that Republicans are trying to suppress the vote which they are but they don't always succeed at doing. The second problem that we talked about in. The second episode was incompetence pockets of incompetent election administrators and these can be Democrats or Republicans. We tend to focus our most attention in large democratic cities. Because that's where there are more votes in those cities. Sometimes the voters are hit with a double whammy. I very poor election station and then they're accused of participating in fraud third problem dirty tricks. We talked about those that was not just the Russians doing their thing in two thousand sixteen but also old fashioned tampering with ballots. We saw that in Bladen County North Carolina where a congressional race first time in recent memory. That's a Redo a congressional race because there was actual fraud in that election. Not the kind of fraud that justifies the kind of laws that we talked about in the first episode and then the last issue that we talked about was this increasingly incendiary rhetoric about stolen a rigged elections and there. We talked about trump a lot about trump and how he's claimed that elections are stolen are rigged. He's called on voters to watch other communities and to look for fraud but we also talked about how Democrats talk about stolen elections to. We talked about the very difficult question of. What do you do in a place like Georgia where you had the sitting secretary of State? Brian Kemp. Who was not only running the election? He was running for election. He was running for governor. Running election. Did a whole bunch of suppressive things. We talked about those in the fourth episode. Is it okay to call him the legitimate governor of Georgia and so we had a very intense conversation with Carol Anderson a professor at emory? About that so that was the first four episodes the last chapter of the book the One. We haven't talked about yet as well. What can we do about nine months before the election? What are we going to do to try to minimize the chance that in November when forty seven forty eight percent of the population is going to be very unhappy anyway. No matter what happens that they're going to say okay. We lost the election but we think it was a fair election. The way it was run. We're going to fight another day to be back in office. And I wanNA really just as a predatory note put out there something. That's been sort of a sub theme of the whole series and is a sub theme. Even today I'm looking at Dale's face and he's really I think Articulated back in the Green Room. That part of the problem is having these conversations that homer simpson famously said like beer. It's the cause of and solution to every problem. In this case I think the cause of and solution to this problem is that these very very intractable issues that we are kind of exploring in depth in this series make people feel hopeless and make people feel disempowered and we've had a lot of listener mail from people saying Holy Hell. This is really terrible. Maybe my vote doesn't count and we have been trying to sort of thread the needle throughout this series of being honest about the problems but also honest about the fact that you have no choice but to vote anyway and one of the things we want to talk about here tonight as we talk about. Solutions is the ways in which there is not an existential problem here. These are systems problems largely that we can solve but it requires confidence that systems work so I just want to put that out there and we can sort of debate that proposition. But I do think that it's incredibly difficult to have a series about a thing that is going to make people say. Maybe I don't WanNa vote. I want to turn to you first. Andrew Because Rick opened with the Iowa Caucus and this sort of cataclysmic meltdown that we saw and you wrote a piece in the post saying pretty explicitly. This is getting a lot of attention. And it's a lot of white people and it doesn't get attention when it's people who have black brown skin for whom every single election looks a lot like this and I wondered if you could sort of amplify your concern about how we have. Just come to live in a universe in which it is simply understood that you are twice as likely to have a malfunctioning machine or some other system problem if you're a person of color and that was not the. I know it wasn't I don't know if I'm so sick audience not hello everybody. I'm honored to be here and I actually do think that it is important that we talk about these issues and eliminate them in a way that I think don't lead people sort of depressed and thinking that they did shouldn't Participate IN THE PROCESS. Because it's not fair but hopeful about what we can do about it and also very present with the things that need to change in cities counties where most elections frankly are administered in in states all across the country. I did talk about. I was on was doing some CNN coverage of the results from Iowa. And I watched the slow meltdown of nearly every panelist that night. We kept saying well. Where are the where are the results? I mean this is. This is by now around seven o'clock and folks who are getting impatient and I just had a thought that so many precincts people awaiting for hours just to get in there to cast a ballot to maybe even later found that their vote wasn't even counted or maybe get inside and be toll that they're at the wrong precinct and not have the agency to then say well. I WanNA challenge ballot Maybe it is that you were in line but because you had to go to work and you don't want to lose your job you had to get out of line. And so I think about the polling precinct where I go and vote Where if I live in a pretty Nice neighborhood in in in Tallahassee Florida if those folks who I vote with a not in and out of there and like fifteen minutes. They're like what is going on that the system must be broken. I'm but if you go to many neighborhoods of color where so many of these precincts that have been collapsed into one where there isn't enough support staff for folks to be able to move through it expeditiously. There's just an expectation that you're going to be there. Forty five minutes and expectation. You'll be there for an hour now whether that's right or wrong. It just struck me that on this particular night and I will concede that the problems that we saw in Iowa should not have happened but we were blowing all the way up not over the fact that there were issues around whether these votes were legitimate or not but just whether we were getting the results of the timely enough manner that we wanted them and what a luxury it was for us to have. That issue is not a question of can vote. Will my vote be counted? Is My name on the roll. Three hundred thousand people in Florida have been purged in two thousand nineteen from the voter rolls. So if I showed up I wouldn't even show up on the on the roster so just putting into context a little bit. I know it's not complete apples in apples but just causing our awareness to go up to say man. These are issues that we should be fighting every single day in. It isn't a crisis only when it's in Iowa it's a crisis when it's in any city county around the country and it's a problem that's pervasive in too many poor communities in communities of color. So deal you're here is our gladiator. Right like you're out on the hustings fighting about these you're bringing these cases you're not checking your hands up and saying you know the systems or broken. I guess we should all move to Norway you are you are doing the litigating and and I think that's a little bit why you have the most furrowed eyebrows when we talk about. You Know How. Some of this feels hopeless. Sometimes because you're trying to make it less hopeless and I wonder if you could just give us a quick survey of the cases that are out there that you're involved in what you're watching the ways in which actually the guardrails of the legal guard rails are fixing some of the things we've talked about or may fix some of the things we've talked him out. I don't WanNa be pollyanna either. I am nervous about communicating a message. That could be disempowering to folks telling folks that you know. The system is unfair. People are being excluded. I don't want people to go from that to thinking that the system itself is illegitimate and that their participation no longer matters but at the same time I also don't want to give people An idealized view. I wouldn't be doing the kind of work that I'm doing bringing lawsuits around the country to remove barriers to eligibility and voting. If I believed we were in an okay situation at this point but just to give folks an overview of some of the work that the ACLU's doing and the work that I lead we're bringing lawsuits around the country to expand. Who's eligible to vote to make voter registration easier to remove obstacles from voting during early voting periods on election day? And we just just to give you an example. The first category eligibility we just got a ruling in a case that we have today in Florida Florida's one of or was until two thousand three two thousand eighteen one of only four states at this point with laws on the books that disenfranchised from voting for life. If you had any single felony conviction so one felony conviction your excess communicated from Civic Society for you your entire life right because Florida's so big. That meant that there were a lot of people and a large proportion of the people disenfranchised nationwide just in that one. St Six million people barred from voting nationally because of a criminal conviction. One point six million in Florida. So almost a quarter of the disenfranchised nationally in a single state and a single very important state. The numbers in Florida are kind of shocking. People don't believe me when I give people these numbers but it's one out of ten adult citizens in the state it's more than twenty percent of the adult black population of the state of Florida. So when you when you think about those numbers which I think are really a testament to how we've over criminalized society and to what mass incarceration has done to our society. But when you think about those numbers I think it's really hard to and here I'm GonNa do the thing. I said I wasn't going to do but I hear those numbers. It's hard to think of Florida as a real functioning democracy right when that many but when that many win that many of your citizens are excluded from Participation Civic Life. It really does at least raise that question. Well Ford came back. After the voters of Florida in two thousand eighteen passed a constitutional amendment that would automatically restore voting rights to people upon completion of their sentence the Florida legislature came back in two thousand nineteen passed a law that said completion of your sentence includes repayment of all fines. Fees Court costs in Florida. They assess your court cost to assess whether or not you are sufficiently indigent as to be entitled to a public defender seriously right so you know you walk out of a court for a criminal prosecution with between five hundred thousand dollars just in costs and fees assessed you for going through the system. I'm our initial estimate. Was that of the one point. Four million people who've completed their sentences for the people that we could get data on about eighty percent of them still have some legal financial obligations associated with their sentences and that the the percentages are higher amongst people of color than they are amongst white former offenders in Florida. So we know what kind of effect this is going to have. We got a great ruling from the District Court in this case last year and just today this morning. A panel of the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed that ruling holding that if people can't afford to repay those financial obligations that can't be a reason for excluding them from the franchise. Limited ruling only applies to the seventeen plaintiffs in this case. But if all things hold they will permitted to vote in the March presidential primary and we go to trial in April and hopefully that will resolve the status of the hundreds of thousands of other voters in Florida in the same situation So Daniel we one of the reasons we wanted you on the podcast. When we were sort of conceiving of what we were going to do. Is You know you? You work there at the intersection of Technology and privacy and free speech and law and you Kinda came on and scared our face off because you were talking about misinformation disinformation and you know the specter of deep fakes and all the ways in which you know. We think we're having a process problem about voting but actually there's a Meta problem which is we're all pushing around fake information and none of us can tell what's real anymore and that I think is a sort of grinding problem underneath. Whatever electoral fixes We could talk about and I wondered if you could sort of. Give us your sort of good and bad. What what has improved since two thousand sixteen? What is scarier? What do you think about when you think about this? Entire kind of a coffin as world of fake news and bad news. Disinformation information foreign and domestic. That people cannot tell anymore. What's true and how that inflicts on how you think about the twenty twenty election. Okay so maybe we should start with the good I could not everybody's So I'll start with the definition of what a deep fake is. I think what is good as we're starting to understand the phenomenon so deep fake is either manufactured from whole cloth or manipulated audio and video. That shows people doing and saying something that they never did or said And we've seen in the last six to eight months a real rapid escalation of the technology that once you would look at a video and say you know you can see some of the imperfections but it is developing so quickly that now. It seems as if we're at that point where audio is impossible at least for audio deep. Fakes impossible to tell just as technical manner. The the smartest people the the greatest experts can't tell the fake from the real so when this phenomenon heads and like everything Allah Internet it begins with Porn. Forgive me but welcome to my world. You know ugly. You know deep fakes. Come on the scene. There's a separate at named deep fakes and it is basically porn videos with women's faces celebrity female fees faces inserted into porn and the name is then taken from the sub reddit deep fakes and it sort of the notion of what a deep fake is. And it's still predominantly so of the fifteen thousand deep fake videos online Ninety six percent of them are deep fake sex videos and in ninety nine percent of the time it's women's faces being inserted into porn And it's often true with network technologies that the first victims of mischief and abuse are women and marginalized communities. And then they get mainstreamed. So I'm trying to figure out. Maybe what my good news was. I was GONNA say sorry. Sorry we're having Riba snorting good time okay. we're coming to understand the problem for the fullness of it rather than I think a hype that scared people and still people were saying. What are you talking about? What fake we at least have a phenomenon. We have our arms around it. We've seen examples. We've seen it using satire. President Obama you know Jordan Peele did a satire of President Obama Deep fake so. We're coming to see and understand the problem. I just want to say that one of the things that I realized from reading. Daniel's work was I thought the greatest danger of a deep fake was. You'd see something and you think. Oh my God. I can't believe what this candidate is doing. Where I think the bigger danger is that we just come to disbelieve everything right and we disbelieve truthful information. We have a hard time knowing. What's true and I think you and Bobby in your article coined the term the liars dividend. So here you could have. Donald Trump saying that wasn't me on the Access Hollywood tape that's fake news and that becomes more credible more this fixed actual real fake stuff out there right right so part of the the sort of play here is that if you can't know what's true and what's false you give up on the possibility that you could ever know anything. And that's the playbook. Let's do relate to this case in Florida one huge Kudos to you. All these the defender in the same election that I lost by thirty thousand votes. Which was the closest gubernatorial election in the two thousand eighteen cycle and the closest a Democrat had gotten to winning the race for Governor in Florida for twenty four years thirty thousand votes? The voters of the State of Florida sixty five percent of them decided that we were going to be a forgiving state to state that allow people second chances that you will not going to be judged forever by your worst day and obviously the legislature came into power. Just nakedly recognizing that it is possible that they could get the short end of the stick even though the majority of people being in franchise or white yet in the first three months in Duval county something like fifty four percent of the people registering black men sending a signal to people around where the energy was around this so to the idea of fake news. If everything is questionable what is real the lasting legacy I fear on the continued litigation? And I'm glad we are continuing it but the but the but the conflict that the legislature and the governor has created is that it is thrown great doubt and suspicion and fear into the minds of these individuals who we very much so want to register to vote and get involved in the process but in Florida if you registered to vote and you have net satisfied. These fines fees court costs restitution knowingly or unknowingly. You sign that you are now registering yourself to vote. If it is later found that you still have fines. Fees Court costs restitution. To be paid you can be criminally prosecuted. So why would anyone volunteer to put themselves into a situation that you just got out of? All you want to participate in the democracy. Make away for yourself for your family. But you do that now. At the risk of prosecution again and so I'm hopeful that over the length of this this will all be worked out. I fear that in the short term for twenty twenty that there's so much fear in the environment that it really does complicate our ability to do the work we have to do which is registering reengaged. These folks I I just want to say that I agree a hundred percent. That voter confusion. Is I think not only something that we're worried about. But very much a goal of folks on the other side right the message. After amendment four was passed in two thousand. Eighteen was folks can vote the message after the legislation was passed in two thousand. Nine hundred was no you can't and now there's this court ruling it applies to seventeen people. Maybe it'll apply to more people and I think a lot of folks are rightfully confused. Worry about signing a piece of paper under penalty of perjury that. They're eligible to vote one other point on that is that Florida's records on fines and fees. Only go back to the early nineteen nineties so if you have a conviction from the eighties or earlier than that actually some of our clients. Do you actually can't find the records associated with your conviction to determine whether or not you've paid off all of your fines fees and you still upon registering to vote have to swear under penalty of Perjury. Right now that you've fully discharged all of those so it's really confusing. It's something you know in all of our cases frankly and it speaks. I think to the limits of the effectiveness of the work that I do. You know we can change the laws but if the public doesn't understand what those laws are. If it doesn't get communicated out sufficiently in advance of an election The work that we do is only going to be so so useful and find it finally just finally on this and then we can get off Florida at least for the bad news. I guess the PODCAST is over. I know now the whole Lord yes. We are off some days some days to understand the significance of the impact in a state like Florida. You're talking about a governor's race that was decided by point. Four percent of the vote. Donald Trump won the White House by point and Florida. Barack Obama won the White House twice by a point in Florida. Al Gore depending upon where you sit on this question. Five hundred thirty eight votes or as we like to say a five. Four Supreme Court decision decided the presidency of the United States. And so if we think this is a little happenstance thing one point four one point six million people. We're talking about state that is routinely in presidential and gubernatorial elections. In this case the last five gubernatorial elections decided by a point in my case point four percent that these are the kind of marginal differences that can completely overturn or impact the outcome of election. You know it's interesting. After the census case was decided. I wrote a very depressed piece. Saying it doesn't matter. People are now going to be afraid to fill out the census regardless of the outcome because they feel as though The government's coming For them and and a dear friend of mine sort of took me out to the woodshed under the sort of Dale Ho theory of. Don't keep putting the idea in people's heads that even when you win you lose because There's now confusion and a sense that the system is rigged. And so it was sort of good moment for me to realize that you can kind of take your wins and The problem of confusion and despondency is a separate problem. Let's do this quick. Quick Lightning Round With the caveat that Dale does not want to participate but just a sort of fifteen twenty thirty seconds of what your when you project forward Rick to twenty twenty election night. What is your nightmare? And then once we get it out there we're GonNa fix it all but just tell us your worst case scenario. Actually we already talked about one on the podcast which was a cyber attack on a democratic city in swing state that cuts the power to Detroit or Milwaukee. But that's not my tonight so different one. Yeah so here's one Pennsylvania's changed the rules. This is a good thing. It used to be that if you wanted to vote. Absentee couldn't up at the polls on election day. I'd have a good excuse now. They have no fault. Absentee balloting which is good except it takes a long time to process absentee ballots. And we know that in Pennsylvania. We also know that in Michigan where they made a similar change. It may be days before we get the results of the presidential election in November. So here's the nightmare scenario. It's election night. It all comes down to Pennsylvania's electoral votes as it did. The last time and Donald Trump is a head on election night and he declares victory and the network. Say It's too close to call too early to call because there's all these ballots to count but yet trump says as he said in twenty eighteen in the mayor's race in the Senate race he says no the only the ballots that come in the first night those are the real ones everything else quote massively infected so trump claims victory even though four days later the Democrat is declared the winner so trump goes to the republican state legislature. And says you know. Why don't you send in a slight of Electoral College votes for me? Because the constitution gives you the power to choose the electors and so two slice of electors go to the United States Congress where according to a bunch of Arcane rules the house chooses the president but under a rule where each state house delegation gets one vote one state one vote and there are more Republican State House delegation then Democratic so trump could actually lose the election according to the county Pennsylvania from election officials but declared the president again. So that's just one you you didn't you've given that some real thought that did not okay. I'm going to scale for a minute. Danielle tell us. Your your nightmare scenario. You talked about a little bit but but tell us what your when you think about what could really go wrong in your lane. At least what are you worried about the night before an election. There's a deep fake showing the one of the major party candidates doing and saying something. Let's just imagine so. Despicable about kind of a core block of voters who that person needs to go out and vote So offensive And it spreads like wildfire right. It's not only on twitter and facebook. it's being shared and what's up and And the tipsy election and of course can't undo an election and so significantly to it sort of shakes how we think of elections the legitimacy of elections on the theory that this is so farfetched. It's really not so in the Philippines about six months ago. There's a deep fake of someone who was up for a very important official in the government up for position and a deep fake Went around showing him having sex with another man which is illegal and in the Philippines and he was removed from the job it turns out it was faked video and the same is true for so yesterday and India There was a deep fake actually released by a candidate for office It was a message. He gave then showing him in the many different languages so he perpetuated fraud suggesting that he was speaking languages he did not different. Dialects did not speak right and so we sort of brazen deep fix not hostile state actor. It's not a hostile party. Suitor your opponent. It's our own officials. Creating deep fakes to perpetuate fraud. And it's happening in the here and now so he's feel like I'm a little hysterical. That's okay but but it's not farfetched. Outweigh leave it there Andrew. Do you have a nightmare scenario? We're living in Donald. Trump is president nightmare scenario. I can't participate in that kind of Game Theory but I don't think it's going to be but certainly in a state like mine and maybe those close to mine and actual episode necessarily I think it is the cumulative effect of all of these what we might think of as little things that are contributing to what will ultimately I believe will be a one percent difference outcome in my state. So the voter purging. That has happened. Three hundred almost a hundred ninety thousand over two thousand and nineteen and my thanks to Court Litigation. We get the signature mismatch. Sorta figured out. But we don't necessarily have the college campus and the voting precinct thing. You know all the way figured out although we're working through some compromise on that but but I think it's going to be all of these small things longlines. Florida has already already been the country's Nightmare. Allah two thousand election so we can actually deliver this thing again to y'all right. Florida is the gift that keeps giving when it comes to these things. But I think it's going to be the cumulative effect of everything that they are doing right now. That will absolutely way on Florida's twenty nine electoral votes. Because we are I think of all the states that are swing states. The only swing state that could by itself to determine the outcome of the election with this twenty nine electoral votes. Dale I I'm looking at you. Scared is but do you have a sort of nightmare scenario or are you very much of the view that everyone will write in on a white pony and vote and the election will be awesome. And even if you don't think that you're not going to say anything else ponies Onis actually. I had similar thoughts to those express both by Andrew and actually by Rick to about the effect that more states having no excuse absentee voting is going to have. It's a good reform right. It states that have at tend to have turn out. That's about two percentage points higher than states that don't Michigan and Pennsylvania to very very pivotal states in the two thousand sixteen election have adopted it for the first time in an election but it might mean that the counting is going to keep going well past election night and that could create a problem. I'll step out. I think about like the legal regimes right and the effects of those might have. But I'll step out of my lane a little bit and just talk about voting trends and demographic patterns and you've probably all heard this that the dissonance between the Electoral College of the potential for dissonance between the Electoral College and the popular vote Seems to have increased right where we saw a popular vote margin of two point. Seven million in two thousand sixteen and trump win the electoral college. It's very conceivable that the that the popular vote margin could be double that And trump could still win the electoral college right. You could imagine an energized democratic base in California and New York you know turning out in higher numbers you could imagine the changing demographics of states like Texas and Arizona and Georgia pushing those states much closer than they have been in the past. Texas was closer in the two thousand. Sixteen presidential election than Ohio was right and people don't generally don't tend to think of Texas as a swing state but they think of Ohio as once you could imagine the margin for the Republican candidate falling in some of these sunbelt states. But not so much that those states actually tip over and you could see The same alignment of states overall. And now we will have been in a situation where in half of the last. Six presidential elections assuming twenty twenty. Goes the way that I'm suggesting it might were. There's a divergence between the popular vote and the Electoral College fifty percent of the time which we had only had what two or three times before the twenty first century that I think is alarming. And when you look at population trends and see that oh about you know. Seventy percent of the population by twenty four eighty is expected to live in fifteen states right. The sort of structural imbalance caused by the electoral college starts to become even more alarming. We're GONNA pause now to hear from one of our great sponsors of this show and that is a grow with Google from Connecticut to California from Mississippi to Minnesota millions of American businesses are using Google tools to grow online businesses like strider bikes in rapid city. South Dakota are using tools like Google market finder and Google ads to expand their reach and connect with more customers. Globally and more customers globally means that strider bikes can hire more employees back home in the US. The grow with Google initiative is committed to helping. American businesses like strider bikes. Use The web to grow. That's why grow with. Google provides free digital skills workshops and one on one coaching too small businesses in all fifty states helping them get online connect with new customers and work more productively learn more at Google dot com slash. Grow that's google dot com slash grow. Okay so we promised a happy happy show. Full of easy peasy fixes. I should stipulate Rick says in his his book that he can't think of like really great short term fixes between now and November. But I wonder if you know. We're we're all presumably smart people who've thought of these. What are some and feel free if you want to respond to one another's nightmare scenarios or or. Give us some thoughts about things whether it's legal fixes which I think I've learned throughout this podcast. There's not a lot of these problems that can be fixed through sort of any regulatory regime that POPs to mind but I wonder if we can can at least muddle through some of what we're worried about in Taco out. If not fix that we can put into place but before Twenty twenty medium-term going forward fixes rick. You WanNa start sure so I finally got a hold of this. I heard it happened but I didn't see it myself but someone sent me. Click today. Check the video. Yes maybe it's not perfect. You think Wolf Blitzer on CNN standing in front of a negative countdown clock. How many hours since the Iowa caucuses ended before we had a result so some of this is the responsibility of the news media. The news media needs to be educated that they need to explain that slow. Count like fine wine. You know a good election count takes time and just have a glass of wine and wait for election results. And maybe we'll have to wait a day or two and I think we have to change expectations because you know Cable News. More than anything else is trying to create a sense of drama even when there is no drama like when you're waiting on exit poll results. You're waiting to call a steak and that drama can contribute to people's angst right or the. The New York Times meter. You remember that that Clinton nurture up so I think the media needs to tone down and I actually have formed an ad hoc group and we're GONNA come up with recommendations by early. May over what people that facebook can do what the media do local election officials couldn't do. I think we have to think about and small problems. There's no one magic fix. We're not going to solve the voter purge problem by twenty twenty but there are things that we can do and the news media has some responsibility here. And would you. I would maybe Add to that and I think made this point also just when you make a mistake you say it and that the culture of nothing to see here. Nothing's wrong we didn't do anything wrong. And that simply. It's part and parcel of the sort of performance aspect like this is not a circus this is democracy and when there are errors and there will be errors. The single worst. The thing you can do when everybody is paranoid is to lie. I remember on The Iowa results were coming out. Everything was slow but it was when the Democratic Party put out a statement saying that there were quote quality control issues that I knew something was up like fess up to APP. And then they denounced partial counts and then they had to take them back because they did them wrong. I mean they're still fighting now over. Those counts so you have to fess up to your errors and explain what happened. Transparencies the number one thing on the list for election officials. Okay Dale what do you got? Well I mean to Rick's point though about Expectations on when we're going to get results. It's really I think as a cultural phenomenon very difficult in the social media age when there's such a premium placed on speed right. Everyone's gotTa have the fastest. Take the quickest result. If the tweet doesn't start with capital breaking you know people don't WanNa read it sometimes and I said I don't know what the solution is other than that I think. It goes even beyond kind of media practices and just kind of cultural expectations in our twenty four hour on demands social media world but one easy fix on something that we talked about earlier. The absentee ballot counting issue. Right in Michigan I mentioned is one of those states. Closest state in the two thousand sixteen presidential election now has no excuse absentee voting. They have a requirement in Michigan. That the ballots cannot be counted until election day. That's not a very good legal requirement when you expect the number of absentee ballots to skyrocket this year compared to previous years. The Secretary of State of Michigan is pushing for a simple fix for this. Let's start the ballots. She's saying as soon as they come in right as a no brainer. So there are some technocratic should be non-ideological fixes to some of the problems that we're talking about that will at least hopefully reduce the likelihood of the kind of nightmare scenario where we don't know who won Michigan or Pennsylvania on election night and. Is there some engine? That is pushing for some of those fixes. I mean is somebody out there in public in a way that could allow for some of these technical fixes. It's so hard when you have fifty one different systems governing our election systems whenever you talk to someone from another country and try to explain how our elections work there sort of kind of baffled. They look at us. Like how can this possibly be? But it's it's really hard because it's decentralized and the rules differ when you cross state lines but in Michigan Jocelyn Benson has gotten together with city clerk's county clerks and they're lobbying the legislature now. She's a Democrat. The legislatures Republican Governors Democrat. So it's Kinda hard to get bipartisan agreement on election things because everybody's looking at what might benefit their party but at least she's putting it on the agenda. Danielle. Do you have some thoughts on fixes. And I want you to talk a little bit about because you've given a lot of thought to what if we regulated facebook would have we regulated twitter. What if the candidates all agreed that they just wouldn't push out? You know something that was. Is this something in your world. That is fixable if we put our sort of shoulder to it and just want on the positive point think. Our electoral federalism has a real upside. Which is there. What is at one point of failure. So as frustrating as it is there isn't one bottleneck that can completely fail so in a way like as we're trying to take stuff off the rug of despair you know. Maybe we can put our electoral federalism in the half. The positive box. Okay so what? What do we do that now that we have you know? Facebook and twitter is in their algorithms are are and in the interests of their shareholders because there isn't regulation is to mine our and exploit social the were sides of us. Write the stuff that we're GONNA like. Click and share on. Is the most salacious right. And that's what earns them advertising income And so what I think we need to do. Is We can't trust on faith anymore that these companies are just going to self-regulate because every time they promise and we're going to be more responsible. Mc says to Congress. That just doesn't happen right so I think it's twofold right. We need strong privacy. Rules around the use of micro targeting ads. That are not going to go back to rex. Point about transparency ads that are not transparent so eighty nine hundred ads at any given. Moment trump is you know or any candidate is tailoring to someone like Neo Nazis homecoming for trump We never see those ads on. Facebook is enclosing them in a way that they were supposed to be transparent right now. Facebook SAYS AIR POLITICAL ADS. We're not GonNa let you see any of it right so both privacy rules and transparency rules. The there's like the honest Ed's act we can do better right but ways in which we're going to transparency and accountability into these sort of algorithms of exploitation and manipulation. Which is for their bottom line. It's bad for democracy and the other is sort of my famous bugaboo which section two thirty of the Communications Decency Act which provides a legal shield for online service providers for content user generated content. And it the whole idea of it was to incentivize self-monitoring and the statute is called Good Samaritan blocking and filtering of offensive content and unfortunately the way the statutes written is. It doesn't require you to be a good Samaritan so sites that are in the business of you know deep fake videos. They get to earn advertising income. They get to encourage people to post destruction and they get to save. Sue me too bad so sad. I got a section to thirty defense and so we need to think about changing section to thirty to reintroduce the incentive to actually be a good Samaritan so that these algorithms can earn you money. You can't facilitate abuse and then walk away from it How about you Andrew? Would you pick up something from the rug of and tell us what if you could could? If we fixed Florida this rug would be floating Rome but towards your question around twenty twenty things that we may be able to do. Given the short window we have for twenty twenty so my first suggestion and this is a little self serving in the sense that this is work that I picked up on in Florida which is voter registration. If you're not actively working to increase my bias not yours but Democratic Big D. Democrat registration in your area. I would encourage you to figure out how you can involve yourself with an organization or an entity. Who is doing voter registration work? We've got over. Four million eligible unregistered in my state alone. And we've fixed our attention on trying to register and reengage a million of them in advance of the twenty twenty presidential election to have impact in that process the thing since this is speaking to the decentralized nature of how elections Iran largely as a volunteer structures that are being run not from state to state but from county to county differences. Rules can be difference between those places Florida's sixty seven counties others. Have you know whatever number that they have? I would love to see the election. Protection Brigade those of us. Who are out there trying to ensure that we attempt downing temping down on deliberate intimidation at the polling places Passing out leaflets Material that helped people know their rights when they're in some of these places if you're told that you don't have a valid. Id You know you have a manual or someone that you can go to help you navigate that process. I think we take for granted how difficult it is for the average person who is not doing this work every day to show up and have agency when it comes to a conflict with an elected official Elections official. Who's telling you that. This is the rule when they made themselves be misinformed. Someone coming in and saying I need a Bali that is in my language. You don't have the right to say no you cannot you? You have to provide that person the ballot in which they can understand. What is there so the election protection piece in my opinion is something we as citizens can do? Since our elections are run by citizens and by and large I think to the extent that it will be loss it will be lost by various elements of human error or human intake in perception. That we basically are going to be the ones that screw this up. We at the individual level or get it right not notwithstanding some of the larger things that have been put out your ready Would just people have things that you can do? You can register voters. You can engage voters you can help. Turn voters out. You can join an election protection brigade because as you know. The president has already called for his people practically to take arms. Go Watch them go to these precincts observe. What it is that they're doing. I'm not suggesting you know a violent response to that. I'm simply saying we're GONNA need a affirming positive response to that for the voters who we know may be more easily targeted here so I would just add that when you're talking about election protection one way of trying to protect the election is everyone should be looking at what their local election administrators are doing. There's opportunities to observe the vote if you are. Jurisdiction is not demanding that there be post election audits to make sure that the voting machines are counting the votes accurately and that. There's something a piece of paper that people can look at to verify so it's not just a computer code. It's a name that you can be counted. These are the kinds of things that because it's so decentralized you need local pressure from local people this is not something that's going to be solved you know. Dale can't be everywhere no I think. I think you're you're making a really important point that I think gets us out of this trough that we kind of fall into is there is this huge Leviathan unknowable. Superstructure that I cannot effect any change in what you're both saying is no like the beauty of I. Guess Danielle you made this point. I The beauty of what we think of. Is this like rickety decentralized system that is only as good as the like ninety year old lady. Who does this once every couple of years and like you know is that those are positives because you can have real influence over those decentralized local rickety systems right everyone of you is saying some version of that patient partially because I think at the local level as maniacal is I believe the president is in his. Larger apparatus is an how intent and orchestrated. They are in trying to been the rules to their wheel to provide them in electoral advantage. Many of these local elected folks. You see them at ballgames. You engage with them. I don't think that they set out to intentionally steal elections though there may be some examples and you all probably know them better than I do but by and large they want. They don't want it to the embarrassment. They want these things to work. And so in addition to you know going in and auditing at some level you can also go and see the ballot before the ballot is put in the newspaper or sent out as an early about it. In our state we had instructions for the United States Senate race one part of the page and then it's clipped from the next page with actually has the race on us so the instructions were not connected to the race that people were voting for someone or the Party should have caught it but anyway somebody should've been able to catch that but in sixty seven counties where every ballot looks different. Miami Dade ballot is a hell of a lot longer than my ballot in Tallahassee Florida. And so who's paying attention to that if you engage with that early enough can you give advice feedback that allows for those changes to be made before we end up with something that results in something cataclysmic. But it isn't a cataclysmic activity. That makes it that it is a very small nuanced detail that changed the outcome of an election. And far to use to that where I live and I think we can do something about it. So Dale let's say you're talking to somebody who wants to be educated engaged activated and they just don't know I mean what they're hearing what Andrew Gala Missing and they're like. What nail like. I could have done this. I what would you tell them to do? Between now and November. That would really be an impactful some action that is not you know heroic that any person could undertake between now and November. That would make them feel more confident in the entire process as a loyal. I'll just say something that first lawyers can do right And Andrew mentioned the election protection efforts. That are happening. There's a consortium of civil rights and good government groups that participate in an election protection program. That's run by the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights based here in Washington. Dc. They're nonpartisan and they set up boiler rooms you know these response call centers in about two dozen states that are on the ground even before. Election Day during early voting but on election day itself and with call centers in DC to help people just navigate the process right. Sometimes you get very simple calls from people who are having a hard time verifying that. They're registered having a hard time trying to figure out where the polling location is helping people navigate those kinds of situations and then when there is a real problem of malfeasance voter intimidation happening or an election administration problem like machines breaking down and lines being too long then. The lawyers in that room can spring into action. Try to get something done That day to help make sure that. No one's disenfranchise now. Sorry I'm lawyers so everything looks like a nail to me. I was thinking about things in terms of legal problems but things that non-lawyers can do people can participate in voter registration. Drives people can participate with their party and get out the vote efforts during early voting on on election day. It's not actually that difficult to find any number of opportunities to get involved. If what you're interested in is helping people exercise the most fundamental right that we have it's opportunities out there. You just have to step up and take the time for it and Daniel. I want to ask you a version of the same question except yours is kind of existential. Which is what do you tell people who are at this sort of you? Know the place that that recasts in describes of I guess all news is fake and whatever I see on election night is going to be fake and I guess you know as my son would say. He's here somewhere. I should just move to Mars and Mars women because the planet earth is functionally over what he's going to be sleek? That's that's what he says the Mars Girls. He's never going to forgive me for this. We'll have to edit out Danielle. What do you tell people who say we are now in this lake quagmire of misinformation and disinformation? I don't know how to tell my parents what's true not true. How do we navigate this? So let's not forget that we have sources of public trust right. Pbs NPR BBC. You know we often sort of sort of forget that we do have media where we say that they they enjoy the public. Trust them for darn good reason sleep right. I you know our Goto. Thank you right. I have my sleep Coffee Cup at home because I was one of the first plus subscribers just saying All subscribe so but those are really incredibly important. Don't rely on facebook and twitter right unless it's someone who's part of public trust in their linking to articles in sleep right. You know we have to be better consumers and of course at the same time we have to remind ourselves that the distrust that we feel that liars are leveraging that Bobby Chesney I Cavaliers Liars Dividend Is GonNa lead people to say I just believe what you WanNa believe? Truth be damned And then folks are going to be self-serving to escape accountability. Just we have to remind ourselves of that. I don't think we should stop efforts to educate ourselves about debates and the problem of disinformation and propaganda and our disorientation. I think we have to look in the eye and then look to those sources of public trust for news right. I don't want your son going to Mars. No me neither Andrew. I WanNa ask you a version of the same question. Which is you know after what you went through. You could have been completely justified in saying I don't think this is fixable. You know this is a this is a monstrous system that purchase the voter rolls. That does voter caging that suppresses the vote particularly the vote of black and Brown people who have really shouldered the burden of this for a long time as Carol Anderson US last week and yet you have redoubled your effort to get people to believe in voting and I wonder like I. I want what you're having. Tell me how you kind of get up every morning and compose yourself and say this is a system that can still work. Well I I still believe in it. I worked my you-know-what offer two years trying to become governor of Florida and gave everything that I had to it And an election that was supposed to produce six point one million voters which would have been the increase of Share of with four years. Since the last governor's race produce eight and a half million voters. Right we come close to nine million voters on a presidential election so we had crazy turn out which met people were responsible. Black voters for the first time in the history of the State of Florida voted their share of the population. They didn't do that in no eight. They didn't do it in twelve. They did it in eighteen so I can't take for granted that these folks came out participated in the process. The election result was certainly not what I wanted and what many of them wanted for me and for themselves for the state but it to me would have felt like a total slight to everything that I said. I believed in everything that I campaigned on. If I was like the rest of the nominees. Who have come before me and lost in packed up their toys and went home and I completely understand why people do it. A Florida is a state that is a winnable state. It's the state I'm raising. My family is a state that I love and I am as idealistic about the process. Today as I've ever been before and some I'm not if that's pollyannaish but in order to keep up every day sort of recommitting to this work there's gotta be some sense of belief that it is that it's going to work out. Dr King gave the famous speech. Not The I have a dream speech but here in Washington and I think it was later titled Give us the ballot and he said all I want from America is for her to do what she said on paper and when I think about the sacrifices of people like Dr King and Rosa Parks and all of those heroes in Xiros whose names I cannot call and faces. I cannot recognize who gave Life Livelihood and everything in between For a cause that they themselves were not sure that they would ever be able to benefit from. There's no way I can back out from this thing right when people are and I've I've tried to say to young people as well on college campuses if people are working hard to keep your vote from counting. Don't you think they know something about your votes? Don't you think they know about the power that you can command? If they were able to keep you from this process you don't lay down and give that up you stand up you stiffen your shoulders and Spina and you fight back and I think if we do that. I'm convinced that they're more of us than there are of them. But would they have had the success of doing is repeatedly beating down to the point and this is where it is the gift that keeps giving to where we don't believe and if we don't believe we can subtract also on the process. That's the gift that's the disenfranchisement that is the that's the legacy of it so now they got me by thirty thousand. You won't get me again by thirty do you want to. Do you want to Dale sort of tearing up here and I just love what android. He was thinking about the Mars Romance. I WANNA give rick a chance. You know we've been on this journey together for for weeks now and you and I have been sort of Ping back and forth between utter despair and the belief that you know. We don't have a better system. And I always think of justice. Scalia like you just have to beat the other you know the other guy who's running away from the bear and this is where we got we got and I wonder if you have any reflections having gone through this. I know when we talked to Carol Anderson at emory last week it was really. You said I'm just creeping up to the point where I'm you know willing to hear the word stolen that an election was stolen. I'm not quite there yet and I wonder if if kind of going through this process talking to the folks that we've talked to has sort of located use somewhere different from where you started. Well I'm different five times a day but yet I hear something like the mayor said and what I hear is resiliency and I hear determination and that makes me say now is the moment for activism. Now's not the moment for complacency and because we're talking about an election being such a complex system you got to attack it in a lot of different ways to be successful and so it the job is on all of us and so I do feel more determined going forward and people said why. Write a book called election meltdown. It's alarmist I'm sounding the alarm we've got nine months. Let's get to work okay. We have just time to do one more quickey lightning round but rick and I have promised throughout that we are going to end this thing on a high note and we're also going to give people on action. Something they can do tomorrow morning when they get home and something they can do in two months and something they can tell ten people to do so. I'm just going to go down the line and ask you to give the folks in this room. Who came out here. Despite the fact that the first four episodes may have depressed or alarm them. They came out here because they want an idea of something they can do to fix the system and I wonder if we can start with you. Andrew one action every person in this room can take tonight and every day between now and November register as many voters as you can. We're doing it and Florida Ford. Florida action But I could guarantee you that their outfits probably everywhere you live even if you live here in DC there are ways to engage remotely we all have platforms are no stacey does through fair fight and a firefight action where even remotely you can. Hustle Hustle people. But it's it's it's it's a an APP or you can help us through texting. Get people registered in Engage Register Register Register then? Yell educate educate educate rate. Talk to folks about being smart consumers of what they read. Dale joined the People Power Volunteer Network. We're GONNA be plugging people into election protection efforts. The one I mentioned in November and for folks in particular states like Ohio and Arizona. Who are willing to do work in states like that. We're going to be working on ballot initiative campaigns to bring automatic voter registration and Election Day registration to those two states. We did it successfully in Michigan with a ballot campaign in two thousand eighteen. We're going to replicate that in two states and twenty twenty okay and recast in one thing that everyone in this room can do to help? American democracy survive not just the twenty twenty election but beyond what is the thing and action. Step everyone in. This room can take tomorrow morning. Don't be complacent look at. What the media's doing what your local election officials are doing what elected officials are saying and speak out when you see something that's wrong and don't spread misinformation be. I don't want to say Good Samaritan. Maybe a responsible person and talk to your neighbors especially if you disagree politically with them. Because we're in a very polarized moment right now and we're in a moment of technological change so it's a very precarious position and the more that there can be actual dialogue between people. I think the better off. We're going to be. I Really WanNa think everyone who came out here tonight. Dale who mayor Gilan Danielle Citron and a special special thank you to recast for bringing us the idea of doing this. Podcast putting so much hard work into it. I want to thank all of you. Who came out here to join in this conversation and I wanNA thank you in advance. Because I know you're going to be putting the integrity of the two thousand election front and center in the coming months and help spread the word that this is neither pointless nor futile. This is something that really is on each and every one of us to buy in and make change. Thank you all very very much. Thank you to my extraordinary guests. Let's keep fighting and let's see here. In a year to celebrate the fact that Democracy Survive Fate Utah and that is a wreck for this final part of the election. Nope downstairs slate plus members keep an eye on your feed next week for a special bonus. Wrap UP EPISODE HAS AN. I will have a debris on the entire series. Thank you all so much for listening. Thank you for your support through the series. Your letters facebook messages suggestions. And those who came out to see us in Washington DC on Wednesday made all the difference. If you'd like to get in touch our email as ever is amicus at slate dot com. We love your letters and you could always find us at facebook. Dot Com slash amicus podcast. Today's show was produced by Birmingham. Extra special thanks to slate lives executive producer fate Smith and to Rosemary Belsen for her steady hand on the controls in Washington. Dc Gabriel. Roth is editorial director of sleep. Podcasts June Thomas is senior. Managing producer of slate podcasts. And we will be back with a fresh new amicus next week.
Heaven's Gate Cult Of Cults
"Now another addition of tony auto on cy talk from lord of the rings Abraham votes incense is a creepy man. Who is your mazda. How someone i two. Wow hey that's great appreciate you. My guy the archangel. Gabriel is in early What is most important. Is that burnham forgives herself because as burn my carry a tremendous amount of guilt and shame. Name is alex. Zahara played re god's zales to iron shirt. The one i own us breaking code rush allman coca. Were talk a typical behavior special effects. What's it like curfew both to kind of two things that aren't there. Well you know. Sometimes you have an experience anyway. People like gone in part because of the hopeful nature of genes vision but also because of its message of diversity and inclusion wrong and prosper high. Today a very interesting program. I have klay tweet and ross. Dinner stein who executive produced and klay directed about the ufo cult. Heaven's gate cult of colts now on. Hbo max gentlemen welcome recall. I've seen documentary. That had this much to show about the inner workings of a cold. Congratulations on that. Very chilling thank you thank you for both debut. What led you to do this. This is ross. i'll start i. I remember in ninety seven in the spring ninety seven when when the colt exit happened. I was a senior in high school in houston texas in marshall. Applewhite had a connection to my high school and we covered it with the school newspaper. Remember being fascinated with that story and continuing to be fascinated with it Throughout my twenties my thirties in about three years ago i came across the podcast. That stitcher middle made the tin part. Podcast on heaven's gate and through one of my agents. I got in touch with them and and partnered up with them to produce the doc series and then i brought it to clay clay and i were in the middle of working on a six part. Doc series for netflix. Called the innocent man based on john grisham only nonfiction books. So i was working at my office on that project for you know almost eighteen months and i mentioned to him. We essentially just waited for clay to finish the innocent man. And then we got into it. And ross pass it to me in check the check. The podcast out. See what you think. And i i loved it in the the thing that i like really gravitated towards was hearing from the former members and some of the family members of former members which i thought was a really unique and just emotionally engaging way to to Tell the story so. I thought well if we have access to these people. I think that we can really do something that delves deep into this group and and maybe try to reflect other parts of of religious thought as well. Yeah i mean having access to the surviving members and then the detective work clay. You can start in getting some of that footage the home movies from the cold amazing stuff. That really took you right inside. What group was doing and their way of thinking. And all of that. The podcast to the podcast had Track down some of that already in use some of the audio but i could talk into them early on you know being like oh there's video files attached to that. It was just really exciting. And then ross you. You helped procure some of that other Footage as well some of those home movies so as a group effort to to all hands on deck to get as much footage. As we could compile. I will say to like one of my favorite little stories about the production of this whole series is that one of our editors James lesch was reading a letter that one of the former members wrote to their family. Back in nineteen seventy six. And it said like all i wish you guys had been in tulsa oklahoma with us because this guy film sessions and they were really it really just clearly got across what we're trying to do what our mission is and our editor was reading that and it's like wait. I wonder if that guy that they're talking about who videoed them. And seventy six still alive and just started googling and found that he had since passed but his son read video production company today in tulsa oklahoma. We call them up and He had just like in a storage locker. These old three quarter inch tapes of like the group From nineteen seventy five and seventy six at no one had ever seen before. That's the real going down the rabbit hole of Really trying to dive in do as much research as possible. That's amazing what a stroke of luck to To have that and especially the guy works in with videos there you go. it's made. It was a really well as he was like. Oh yeah i can get you guys. You know watermark links. Check about or like Yes please wow amazing. Detective work on that. I think people will find fascinating and we can start with you. Ross is the relationship between dough and t- and and really how i i was impressed by their almost laid back approach rather than coach. You expect him to hit hard. Hit hard but it wasn't like that with them. It was a lot more subtle. And i think that's more dangerous in in brainwashing people. Yeah no i agree with you. And there were moments as as we were in the middle of it in watching cuts in and doing research for. Sometimes i felt like that dough in t- were reluctant co-leaders meaning they just sort of fell into this and things were happening sort of more quickly than they can control but as you sort of get into it. Some of the moves. They made showed that they are actually pretty calculated in a lot of a lot of it was premeditated. The stripping down one's identity cutting off relations with other families of the general hypocrisy of t. All of those are are kind of like you know how to start a cult one so it was always sort of fascinating because i i sympathize with doe and i always felt sorry for him because you know the genesis of him who he became really was about his repressed homosexuality in coming from a super christian church in a minister father but at the end of the day to like he knew what he was doing and sometimes i felt like he didn't but as we dug deeper into in deeper it was very calculated. There was a method to his madness and they were able to sort of charm. These people and and you know even hearing tease daughter talk about her mom and how she thought that dough marshall was her soulmate. Yet she was married and had kids soulmate. Was this the stranger that she met on in a psych ward. Who is a patient. It's it's all just sort stranger than fiction. Frankly yeah that's kind of a red flag right there via ask me but you know that's i think what i also took away from this and Clay i want you addresses and ross as well if you'd like is if a game plan for colts is destroy one thing. We all have our individuality by getting cutting your hair dressing the same eating the same food not showing any kind of preference that you might have. That might be different from someone else. And that was part of their success for sure. I mean i think people that feel like i mean just in your description of that Who is going to appeal to people that feel like they don't fit into society has already you know doesn't mean that these people again as you make the point in the series. It doesn't mean these people. Are you know not intelligent. It just means that they. They feel like they are disconnected. What better way to pray on that insecurity than to create a mythology around well if you feel disconnected that's because you literally don't belong here and you and you we you are recognizing that i have the truth and that we need to be going to to the heavens on spaceship i think that the the latter part of that statement of you need to be at me on a spaceship is like the part that gets people people's attention but it's really the first part of your you're feeling disconnected and i have a way to solve that is what draws people in it. What's interesting too is we talked about them. In relation that they did is mixing known religious beliefs with really with science fiction even incorporating star trek which is ironic because nichelle nichols. A brother was in this in his cult as well so that was interesting how they would take known things that people trusted and incorporated their own ideas into them. And that's very chilling. Yeah i mean when we were talking to some of these religious scholars and sociologists. That's one thing they all were saying was like a lot of these new age movements are using that as a backbone they take ideas and beliefs that people already have and then they just tweak them oh you know the book of revelation will let me just reinterpreted a little bit differently from an and then. So it's it's these baby steps as opposed to one giant leap And i think that also for heaven's gate in particular as we make the point in the show that this combination of very popular ideas at the time of you know their societal unrest. And there's a lot of like apocalyptic proclamations By some of these groups and sort of that general feeling in in the country already. And then you marry that with the idea of ufo's which were becoming very popular in there in the late sixties and it's just like the general curiosity of about our our place in the universe and marine both like religion and saifi than i think they blend together very well very very easily Had always is interesting. And i'm not gonna give anything away but something happens during the course of this series and what happened in real life that i believe really changed him. And maybe some of the safeguards were kinda taken off a little bit and you see videos of him and he rarely blinks. You know it's like it's like a steely. I stare almost at you and you know he gets emotional and all the things that people people in these kind of colts to kind of hook you in. He's obviously it was a very complex person to know he had any family left or anything at this point. I don't believe he did as much as we dug into it. I know he had an ex wife. But i think he was very much estranged from her from her for the last twenty five thirty years of his life and and I think he had. They had a kid or two. But none of i think sun But yet they've they've never not once ever talked to the media so we were shut off there and trying to tell that that part of the story. There's more fi taught so stay tuned back on sci-fi telecom tony tomato what's interesting and And it's a good balance just to what the cult is doing is the sociologist. And the and the psychiatrists that you have the experts at you talk to these people were part of the getting to talk to them Based they were familiar with this case and and rush you can start us off. Yes i mean. Everyone that we spoke to had either written about it hurts. Spoken publicly about it will released a religious scholar with some sort of notoriety. We we we wanted people to be very comfortable and have an understanding of the backstory as we You know with the documentary like ours have a lot of time to sort of set up in educate other people Been zeller wrote a book. Just on heaven's gate in dedicated a lot of his career truitt. Janjalani alex and steve hassen who were sociologists. They had organic ties to the group in that One of the former members. Dick joslin had actually stayed with jagna Around the time of the suicides in ninety seven he was not with group And then that same that same guide Dick went and got Colt exit therapy. From steve hassen. So while these people like are sort of talking head experts they do have intimate knowledge of the group and even firsthand accounts of talking to former members. Clay one of the things that was interesting was really a person who was interviewed the entire series sawyer and his insights and also to see him as a younger man to talk about filming the scenes where him were some interesting things. You had to leave on the cutting room floor sawyer It was the longest interview. I've ever done in my career. You know it was seven straight hours of a sort of master interview. We did with him at his house. And i wanted to be able to give him the time to really get through all the things that he wanted to say. 'cause he has a lot to he has a lot to say on the group and his experience and i think he does a a really good job of trying to contextual as everything So but i. I you know i didn't want to come in with a very clear directive of like i just need sawyer to say e soundbites to fill out the story. He was one of the first people that we we interviewed. And so i just wanted to get like the Sort of this initial building blocks and you know it was. It's tough because sawyer as you you know he. There's there's parts of him that still believe in the ideology of the group. And i think that what is really Heartbreaking and fascinating for me was like. There's this tension in him because he wants to believe in those things but he And those those tenants. The heaven's gate tenants are to divorce yourself from humanness to be to disassociate from your body and to to be this other being but like at his core in my mind. Sawyer is also just very human. He like he's the very thing that he's trying to get away from very vulnerable ease very genuine. So i think that you know. Despite his best efforts he just he just is very human being. Yeah no doubt about it. Ross talk about the the family. The family members that you talk to that were essentially. I sense that a lot of them still really don't have closure and and the pain is still very fresh even though it's been some time. Yeah i mean that's the hardest part for me as as a producer and as as someone who watches a lot of these documentaries is is to really hear and then see the pain and it truly is a tragic story and most people know. The ending doesn't end well and there are so many people that were left behind who still bear that burden and you see it with teased daughter. specifically you know just i think she feels responsible for some of it and it is just hard to watch put. I also think it's A bit of a lesson learned to you know to to really you know hug your hug your loved ones and and you know if you feel like someone is struggling to to really reach out and make sure that they're okay because you might not have that opportunity again. Ah very very chilling. It was cool to see the The the news reports to like the regular media and how they have they covered it to time Tom brokaw and larry king looking very young. It was it was cool to see that and even the local news to see how they covered it from at that time. So nice perspective. That's how i remember it. Though i mean ross was In high school in iowa as well you know. Just the the i'm in my household. We watched nbc nightly news every night. And so like. I literally remembered. Tom brokaw announcing it. I remember the nike shoes and the purple shroud than i remember the snl skit like all of those things. Stand out to me. And i just appreciated in the podcast the ability to go you know further Behind that story and we tried to go even deeper if we could. Yeah yeah. I will say an no spoilers of course but that last episode is Hum it you're just you're just shaking your head as you're watching it. It's really amazing. You i will say that you see them. You know in their final days and They they do some things on video. That i won't say nothing. You know nothing. Gross or anything but it it's really more like a testimonial and and to have some of those and tape kind of you know peek into their mindset. A little bit is very very chilling. Personally guys how did. How did it affect you after this was all over and you know you finished it and did you take. Could you take a step back and kind of let it sinking with both of you. I mean tony not to make too much of a light but like we just finished. We were racing to the wire to get this done. I feel like only within this last week. Really since it just came out. Have i been able to step back and like take a breath and not be sort of in the just the the grind of of of trying to you know. Just make sure that it gets out and everything is is In place so Haven't had a ton of time to reflect but it was. I mean it was hard. We're we were editing. Editorial proper started just before the pandemic hit so we specifically what what we've been doing the entire time and Just to be thinking about the story got whole time are in in time in our society. That's already pretty filter things. Id and in darkness. We wanted to try to find a way to tell the story that both was empathetic but also like was not just a four hour slog tragedy but it showed the character in some of the ways in which the group did sort of have this interesting self deprecating sense of humor And for lack of a better word we could have a little some moments of like liberty or quirk in the show that made it a little more palatable. As far as hbo axe was an easy sell or was it a hard sell for them. You know it was. It was pretty easy. I mean look. We worked with cnn on it as well and we initially. We initially pitched to cnn and and they were into it and hbo. Max hadn't had just been announced it was still eighteen to twenty four months from launching when we when we brought this into. Cnn and we went in with cnn and then pitched it to hbo. Max and they got it right away. We're on the same page about humanizing. These stories and these people and and not making fun of them and being respectful and so it was pretty easy grouping of between campfire and clay in his producing partner shannon and cnn and hbo. Max we all wanted to make the same show so it was a a relatively easy process. You know after all the deal making was. I remember in that that meeting h max when we were talking about the idea that we wanted to do animations at it was like the this this you know everyone was like whoa wait a minute. You can't do animations that at all our cartoonish or making light like we don't want to go that route in and and everyone was like no no not cartoons we need to find some style and then you know it took us many many months to fear out with that style is going to be but i think that i just remember i was like. Oh they they get what we're trying to do. Because the second that animations came up they said exactly what we were intending to try to do with it. Yeah it's it's really. It is a deep dive into what these people did and Credit to both of you really. It's a great documentary series on what a cult is like what this particular culture is like hopefully a tale for some people. And if there's one thing. I took away from. It is don't ever give up your individuality too precious that's a great takeaway absolutely absolutely well. It's the cult of colts. The ufo called. And it's heaven's gate it's on hbo. Max a fitting place to see it. You will not be bored. All whole parts are pretty amazing and especially the last one in really just brings it home and just leave you kind of sitting there for a while thinking about your own existence. Gentlemen thank you for being on the podcast and talking about this series. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah thank you my pleasure. We've been talking to klay toil and ross dinner stein who are executive producers and klay actually directed this as well and catch it on. Hbo max until next time. This is tony tomato happy holidays and happy holidays to you. Gentlemen as well thank you to stay safe. You're to absolutely we okay. We're we're kind of at our own living hell right now with this but we'll we've made it this far we're gonna get through it. Thanks gentlemen and thank you for listening. Take care hi. i'm george. And i listened to sifi talk.