10 Episode results for "Harry Taylor"

214. Jamie Windust #2 - Depedestaling romance

Made Of Human with Sofie Hagen

1:14:33 hr | 3 months ago

214. Jamie Windust #2 - Depedestaling romance

"Just. A quick reminder to always check. It's something you need. So always go to the show notes on your podcast up to check the trigger warnings because I can not want us specifically every single time. Before the episode's please go that and check the trigger warnings. If there was something that you find uncomfortable something you want to miss out. Mostly, because I am not educated entre warnings as I should be whereas my incredible editor Dave one day takes notes when Disney to the episodes and writes down what all of the potential triggers. So that is way more reliable than hoping that I will say it in the beginning. So please if that is something that is a risk to you please do go and see the show notes. And yeah. Just take care of yourself. In this episode, the UNIFYING CIGNA I think is great about Jen's know conformity and Bingham Binary is that a lot of people in the people that say I don't understand the realize that it benefits everyone. So I think one way try and create that Darlow in case that it's not just for this very secular group of people that I think they think it is is to question that in a nice way on how they perform that and you listening to made of tournament also known as the move Pod a podcast hosted by SOFI can who is a Danish comedian mall off? Aw. Everyone, I am sorry for having missed. So many weeks of episodes. It's because of been moving house. It's better now I'm almost that. well, I thought I was almost that then my incident completely died which made recording episodes much Hata so. You're going to get to quite close to each other I believe. In this week in the neck then it will go back to normal hopefully fingers crossed all of those things so This episode is with the incredible Damien win dust and non binary riots campaign a-. Overall incredible human being. If you don't already know that go and watch. That's headaches. Talk on Youtube go and pre-order the book. Look them up everything that they've spoken about the one of my favorite people and we had such a nasty chat this morning. even though I was so late because I suddenly have to set up all my men in the living room because the Wifi wasn't boy king. So I will let you listen to this episode in a just a tiny second. If you want to see one of my live online shows on the twentieth of October, at eight pm I will do an online show about shane cold. Do you have no shame? You can get tickets on. Soviet dot com forward slash online show just goes hanging dot com and you can click from that but it's going to be very show I will include some of the answers to the Questions that I usually ask the guests, which is only available to patriots. Patriot Patriot supporters patrons. The asked for permission yet but I will if is going to be lots of story. Stories about shame about embarrassment and we are just going to be talking about all the cringe-worthy staff and I wanna hear hear your stories one a hand what you have done. You are deeply ashamed off then I think we should just all have a have a good old chat about it that is on the twentieth eight PM I would love to see you there tickets on Soviet dot com now I just want to let you listen to this episode but the incredible Jamie windiest. owner. Kate's that. Oh. Yeah. Absolutely. I want to enjoy We both have a Harry pillows, Yellow Harry pillows. Disclose that with you. Sexy but I Harry Taylor. You, flashing this early in the morning. So I'm. Talking to you again. Well. Let's us that for people who might not have heard the other episode for anyone who's been. Buried under a pile of whatever and have not heard of yet. Would you let introduce yourself? Shall I will I will allow them to not have none spine will make mistakes. I am Jamie St- I am a editor brights and cultural commentator. And soon, to be author, which whip attending is happening. I'm currently. Being very casual with you. SAFEY on my safe. On a Sunday morning with competency. Very lovely like the vibe. Power of Zoom. Are we meeting? You're right now in life because now no, you're on your cell phone with a cup of tea and it's a Sunday I'd say moaning. What in life in general where we meet? Won a great question I'm. So I. Twenty three. I. It's been quite a while since we last had a proper Chan. Announced changed a lot happened. I'm currently getting ready to release my book I'm lacking. With Gay Times, which is an amazing opportunity and I feel I feel a lot more stump list since last time think when we When we last spoke? I was a baby. I, think of myself as as a month baby. Amounts baby. No spicier. Now, it just feels a lot I. feel a lot more grounded now. I've had a lot of a lot more life thrown at me but I'm. You'll meeting minimal. Grounded place when you think of yourself, what is a year and a half two years something? Even just when you think about yourself two years ago how do you see yourself because I when I see myself two years ago I was just so angry and it was just all this. Anger that I was just putting out. An because I also feel. A lot calmer and more ground thousand. How how do you see? Jamie two years ago. I think. Was I was only just kind of starting my career I was very much a yes person I was saying. I was. Not necessarily knowing what I wanted to go. Anything now. Specifically, like this. Very very recently I feel like I'm in a period of. reinvention as it were. I'm yourself. Yeah. where I'm able to kind of. Because, I'm grounded because I I have what is comfortable and I am. Fortunate enough to be able to feel quite content with that I'm able to. Change what a not just do. Very trans-pacific work and of more autonomy behind what I'm doing. I think two years ago was very much. Focused on just kind of telling. Trends stories or might story in a very. not innovate analytical way. I was just kind of been a gallon the message whereas now it's like. I don't want to do that all the time. It's boring. I've come. To talk about than. My. On my buddy timing, ask the rest of the rest of the world caught up with that like. I imagine you still being asked priorities to talk about that. So do feel. Do sort of wish they would ask you the questions by now. Yeah I think. I think so and I think. A threatened because I try and. Showcase more than not in my wife nece strikes often to boil back down to just gender identity like. I was thinking the other day when I. was having a chat with a friend about the TUB- activists and I think once that phrase is GonNa put on someone old of the vast rations or like career goes somewhat. Diminished because they had been seen as just changed Bangor and it's like. It's very is very binary. It's like what actually I can do that wildest. Having. Passion full. Bikes in or passion perfection. The defensive company Baiju symptoms I still next week. I'M Having, not see other things you talk about TALK ABOUT GENDER I. I do a might have, and I'm very selective when I say, yes I'm GonNa say Ni- You might think it's ironic that I've written a whole book about it but isn't It big on my times in I reside fortunate built Keep it very. Specific to what I wanted to say kind of dragged in any direction Yeah I. Think at me personally I don't think it's. Ironic at all I feel like it's it's exactly what it is. Isn't it an iceberg on just from having written? My happy fat. Is Once you've written it and pass it onto the pappas, you have this feeling of right I've now set everything. So you don't know it's probably naive even have thought ago. Watson. Now surely, we're ready to talk about other things and other aspects. Because you can just read the book if you WanNa know any of this, but that's usually not how how the will that's what people go Rhino case this is what you're talking about. Let's just as you all these questions that you've already answered. Yes exactly. 'cause with an I. Think Albuquerque quite similar always like reference on you. It's like if you WanNa hear me trope. By see nothing with us and people that actively do that type of what sexual change. We do so much free labor. The is like if you wanted to him about it. Discovered look at the stuff we've done Just like we talk about it quite Yeah. I just. I hope I hope that I can lead for what do things acts enjoy though I don't enjoy talking about gender, but you know. It's it can get quite dry. What about when yeah? Because it's gender gender in itself is ever changing right? It's it can often be fluid and. Vary a lot both about how people feel about it but also what we learn. Do you other already things that you've said. That you wish you. Wish you could take back 'cause I. Don't think we really believe in regret but are the things that you would sort of. Correct your cellphone about Oh wait. I was a baby I didn't know these things. Absolutely and as always. You know even with the book. When I write in the seas writes it last year And I finished it. At. The end of twenty nineteen and even even now back at it, and when I did the OJ book hours up to by Brady, going back over I was like. Nine. I think vence differently but you know your thoughts vote even an things like gender stocks say sir. Evolved I. Think IT'S For me I look I. Look at my work when gender as a almost like a time stem. Being a kid this point in time. This is how. AM. I like to hype that in the works I continued to do when I talk about gender a, it constantly comes from a more evolved and. Informed by. because. As as I speak in in the book about my experience Fatty. In terms of let my bringing. Is Defending privileged outlet and I had hardship if I never had a lot of kind of real. Food Times that I love people have. Learning about that was really interesting and helped him how sink. I think one one example of how my thoughts about is when I did the possible campaign. Campaign for that thinking about it. Would you just explain to people who don't know course? Yes. There in. About eighteen months ago I campaigned for X. Passports to be. Be. Made Monday on official documentation notes of impossible it said like having. An option for people die identifies medal fever. An kind of I've I've of year. And specifically, I some. I've rarely religion style lot more. Amazing resources from. People like. Nim Vow Susan Amazing. Coordinates that and? Activists organized about how actually. Legal Documentation and having your identities aligned with. Government essentially is no actually. Beneficial for old people. It can hinder it off people. It doesn't necessarily. asylum-seekers Jeez. It can. Put you musicians that a more dangerous because the the government controlling your agency and I think. That for me the best. Focus for me on the best feeling to be like I was here on this. I don't think what I did was wrong. However I think why why learn has meant the I can reflect on there. and think. Okay. Leaving Foods let's make sure we include this new information in the discussion And Yeah I think that's Does in February to do in order that work some people are less less likely to do that. I mean it's It's so hard to do that. It's so hats to realize that you were not only wrong but that you've learned. It's. It's why people still get cancelled for know four year old tweets or whatever. How how do you do that? Have you always been able to? I don't even know what the right word Salik criticized be called out of be corrected. Because you are public learning publicly with. Can Be terrifying. Have you always been able to sit back and just sort of deal with all? Do you know how you found out how to do that all. Defined it. I find it quite difficult sometimes if I'm honest. Because of my. MIC, plus by the beginning I found it ready because my personal nature with myself is I'm very like I'm my hardest critic. So whenever I get. Feedback. that. Isn't. Causes at the beginning in two years ago when virus receive feedback that was actually critical but not necessarily negative I would take as you know as an attack. On that summer see. Something that I've realized is built within. Systems of privilege of. The. Now I. Might. Be doing a disservice that the what I do if I didn't listen. Now. I'm a white able bodied slim passive in this space. And One thing that I've already learned to Davis to actually just know when you don't need to be some. Love no criticism feedback received. Is. Difficult is a difficult thing to do when you watch yourself when you when you managed existing, you receive of criticism and like you say when it's when you learning in public, it's it's difficult and when you see People around you were being. Dragged through the Internet backwards. I'M NOT GONNA. Lie that it's not. Skyrocketing Sometimes A. I would be able to sit comfortable with I didn't. Recognize that learning. Yeah, it's a difficult one but I think. It's More than necessary it's it's it's something I just. After do not because I read. Make enough to do it, but it's just becoming second nature to just do that now, and I was running to see because if it's in, for example, your instagram DM's it might be amongst messages that are just hateful and abusive. So you might already be in the mode of a bit defensive or. And suddenly that's a message saying, Hey, you've done this and your instruments to go. Being attacked again, and then you had to go hold on. This is a person with actual genuine good feedback that can commitment that a person, but it's such a shift you have to do in your head. To differentiate those two things from each other. Obsolete. It's Is at the beginning. It was difficult nights is shifts but I think. Now. United. Example. I. Instead of. Seven executive of. That what Walking on prize campaigns getting to kind of be in these campaigns and I was actually I didn't need to. So I'm gonNA I was offered the people that were asking spend these campaigns essentially consultancy works. Let's take. You'll coming back to square one on Harris here. Hero people the Iowa of hair people that I'm the needs. No exposure but like that sounds really patronizing but people that my round it's they need to be exposed to people who need to see them, right? Yeah. People that just have this story shed and. Doing, now for me was more for finishing I don't follow. On kind of what basis I felt like I had elevated my work in a way because I was like. This is what I wanted to. A being able to. Create a campaign hip with. NEW NATIONAL BRANDS TO BE LIKE This is represents. Say. That was. That was fun. That was cute. It feels like a thing you would need to be quite comfortable. Comfortable that word, you'd need to be maybe con. Not Confidant. It's the it's the fear of Scarcity the fear of. which I think when when a freelance past when you`re Sort of. In this sort of weird industry that was sort of in. Tanning down on the tuna sees. This. It's very very easily becomes a bit of a scary thing and I guess, my question is action on even about that was more about. What do you do? What have you done to sort of? Give yourself the calf. Oh, the Safety feeling safety perhaps pestle sexy in your head. In order to be able to do that without saying no, I should probably put myself I right now because. Everything's so scary. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense especially especially this year dry especially having. A. site. Many of us were in March and we just saw calendars disappear returns so. I try and base that principle all. Whether, or not, I should be at the table. With. Mike Lindell my head is have I had this conversation before on a platform. If I have. The do I need to do a damn? Is the audience different will audience is if the audience is different And I think here's it's still beneficial for me to be that then fine. If I think I'll actually I've done something very similar states than I'll be like academy needs to be that. You know we by Swat ways the wonderful headaches London. Walking with them number. Some was a great example of that is essentially what to curate an amazing group of people. That S-. Needed to be seen. And that was that was a great example of like. They wanted we wanted to work together every cried I knew the authority on what wisdom I didn't need to be in it. And it was just about. Showcasing. London in the case kind of cuisine. The is difficult and I think especially now I try is becoming more hearts to. Waste say nut. Because of financial security because of. The world we live in. I think you just know. When an opportunity comes through. You'll instantly forgot feeling. As. To the most greatest influences in the knock. Mia New Safety. I got a lot of offers that come in from Berry Dorsey companies I'm like no I'm not. You know you just instantly know get like I need money but I don't need money from Jeff Bezos so. I was GONNA ask you about. Your experience headaches. Because obviously you talk with. Incredible and I saw. That was when I was hosting right with. Mariam. and. I couldn't see that the talks at the time had watch it afterwards. But. I remember being very curious about the audience and how because there were a lot of people in that room. And it's very I remember from doing mind that it's. It's always goes by and then afterwards like, Oh, I can't believe that just happened because. It goes by so quickly. What was your experience with that type of audience because that was my when I did like they don't know about the tenets, London women audience going to be and. What should general experience with with that as Mariam next book people who challenge the Audience Yeah. Absolutely. I on in the book by about it, I speak about as much kind because I genuinely do. Like explained to marry and thanks the team for just honestly creating one of the mice. Nourishing yet like. For me. Palestinian like enhancing. Periods of of what the I've ever done. And I think she was very in the team of very receptive. The audience and my thoughts on the Oh will kind of one of my biggest concerns. Before I did the hours like I know. I can make an assumption of what your audience is going to beat a link the idea one to assume what they are I'm however. You know I am. Not Being Siskel Man In. That Space Malambo already going off not because I. When I presume that most people were stop so. She, ready I didn't Environment Mariam that made me feel comfortable with the audience. Saying that. Afterwards and the a speakers cafe when you go so is this GonNa Section where you go outside? Could have like a meet and greet. The INS. Clearly hadn't listened. To Talk. Everyone. I'm I, I left I, write about it and I just think remember like a lot of. People in a lot of men both kind of coming up being like. You talk about Al Shift in your tool can you talk about needing help like? What does that mean? What do you mean? And I think. That was quite. It was quite upsetting weeks because I. You know. I did she spend three months working on this tour? One of the biggest of my career far say. That didn't understand Biden by route is not that wasn't my job to make understand if you've got an ego debt, we didn't didn't. Upset. Why said is a constant list for you to start thinking about something? And I just didn't answer that question. Not Noga later jeannot listen. I love them and. I'm really excited for this for this year thinking bigger. Questions over the areas. That you of questions you being asked or the topics show being asked to talk about what you like no I'm done. I'm done with this one like you've I've. This has been not just an ends up by me but by. Everyone like you should know the answer by now. Yeah. The kind of the questions me about Wants does combining remain. Size. Onto even. I know. Question that people don't say how can I be alloy or how can I help or? And I when people were asking me, I, flipped it to them and I said. which looking back now is quite boozy for major said this by was like. How Nice Person. Like. You're essentially estimate how how you kind. What, how you like Compassionate those types of questions for straight me because when you boil it down is is actually You're asking me how to look after someone. and. I remember the the that chapter in the book one of the hardest for me to write a section on Alisha. I'm and I vowed to never began. By, did and I found it ready to scoop his rece- thinking about it and when I was boiling down and when you actually realize that. People. Some people can. No. Find in themselves to be nine. To you because. That was very difficult to kind of sit with. annoy internalize. And not be like Oh. My God is because of May. Question I where I got at Ted was, how'd takes Geo Metro? Which I was like issue to stood states on. cried. At you. Asked me what lipstick I'm wearing. Goodbye. Scene. Go. Away. You. Can't. figure out like the people who would ask you. Basically House to be nice house to be kind. Is there any part of you that can? Not Emphasize can understand. that. 'cause I what's the alternative? The alternative is for us to see them as these. Aliens that we just don't understand. What is there a way of related to it in any kind of way as their way of understanding how some people? Can feel like that. I think one. The unifying I train. A. Great about Geno conformity and Bingham Binary is that. A lot of people and the people that kind of say I don't understand to that it. Benefits everyone. So, I think one way to try and Create that dark shy case that is not just for this very secular group of people that I think they think it is is to be Reich is to question them in a nice way on how they perform that Joe. At makes them about it, and then kind of question them what they find stress that about or if they find anything tricky about it, that causes them. Stress or pain, and then being kind of a thing though While I'm doing on what the community had dividing. Makes it easier for people of all genders not just gender conforming people. Breaks down, those. Awful barriers an strict rules of massive. Leads to. Old Mental Health. Situations that so. That's kind of my go-to with with with people that I kind of. while. How do you feel about it? Do you have to buy and the negative when they reflect on yeah. I hate wearing a suit and tie and it's like Oh. Yeah. That world that was a question I was thinking about today. Thing about who would be. In a will that was different. What a great. we're. GonNa Continue. This is a class of meeting of just saying saint question in ten different ways even though you got it the first time. Like it's It's so hard to think of ourselves outside of the system. That hates us. And sometimes I think about the opportunities. Like when you see people who was sort of the same. But not non binary not fat on not you know. Kinda, go Oh wow you. You had the The society gave you the confidence, do that or the gate of the opportunity to do that and? How much of WHO I am on identity coal. Basis is because of all of this and You got food YOU'D BE IN A. In a different world, I think. Deny always see gender. As. Evolving. Remember I'm. On a side note, I had this conversation with frightens before An love the freaks out. and. Look has meant that it's been a great way to get rid of people that are. And I had this conversation with them about gender evolving and being different than I was like. which will come by they were like, Oh could you have? LIKE TRANSITION TO BE A. To be a woman and I was like, well, I eight, nine, I say. ICON say Yes oh, nine. Because I don't. May Be required fun. Summit today in New Angle. I think for me in an alternate universe I would. I would love just bs And I think I love of that allow thinking for that because it makes people it really shocks people sometimes. Because that like they see me in that like your your whole thing is about you not being metal female I'm not well. I just talk about it sometimes, and then you think that about and. If you listen to actually website changes a moves. So. I can never say, well, I'M GONNA be fifty s less the question I got as well. What you don't let that when you sixty miles an once you cats who knows it wouldn't have been barring to know yeah. Well, I, guess I do I have brown suit instead of a suit? Yes like. They. Always ask me that because of I think it's rooted in idea of like you can't look this. An. In that mindset thinking, you can't look to seventy lack of. Them What does? It all out to what they're actually asking you is. Okay so you say don't fit into either of these boxes. Fine. Okay. So what is the Bucks Oh? Okay. Non Binary and this look at these rules cool and then when you say might change, you're basically saying. There are no boxes and then people get angry and frustrated because Manila. No, we just found out what bucks could put him. I've just created the bucks in my head. You can't stop telling you that there are no boxes. There on bodices. This Around I mean. We're just living here rent free in other people's minds and. I wasn't love at some times. What I What do you WANNA. Talk about that. Is that like what? What are you sort of? You know what? What would you like to be asked about? I love talking about. This being Sindhi like. I'm. I'm I'm I'm stupid unlike. Not Unlike. A CAIRN kind of Web I'm. Just like. I. In the book I try and be quick funding it I'm just speak keep it very light A. Recently filmed a series with ottaway. Who in their shoes and it was a chance for Mayo We. Couldn't produced it with that team and it was a chance for me I. Sat down with the beginning and I was like I want this. To just be. Stupid. Because I I'm sick of doing stuff that is heavy. Side we can have heavy conversations. But I'm sick of. It not big on my terms I think for me moving on having conversations the argest. Boring. Like. Just like. I'm gonNA say silly again. silly. Like we had the amazing term on. Just. Amazing and just sitting down with him and just having an absolute Nassar. Teacher. I think for me personally in terms of my job and looking at stuff bathing A. Heist I'm being presented star is something that I'm finding vary. Berry Fun very enjoyable because it's got all the best possible of why do in I can have a bit of my fantasy that just a sprinkle on top by to listen to other people I get to have conversations that nominee how And I get something ridiculous. So. Unlike. Moving forward. Conversations with other people. I want her immoral I'm sick of my voice. What are you? What are you? If you had to host the documentary on anything? What would you be the most curious about? And you know like if you said anything other than anything to do with gender, the stations would be like, oh no, actually we would let us but that wasn't the thing and producers went denying what would you look? I think. Slight me I guess this relates to low but one thing that I've always. Could never wrap my head around is this idea of monogamy? and. Dating. I thought. Mean from my experiences is a is a very inaccessible. Entity that is often seen as buried disposable for most people. So, are questioning I can get involved in because of. My gender identity or the way I look or just. Things like that. Whereas for lot of other people, we invite the love islands crowd. Mike. Sue sexual people. It's very disposable ensign. By left to talk about, I'd love to find out. More about the. Dickens like. Why he will serve invested in monogamy. Why people would not listen to spend their lives trying to find the other Because I just find it such A. Foreign Concept. What's your relationship with? Relationships. Are. A. I think. I think I may be. Like trick myself a little bit by saying that I wanNA relationship because I probably would. Someone came along aside to hang out for a bit mall going. But. It's just never been something that I've had. Was Remember. Being. Like at school going to like House parties or hang out with people and Basically spending the whole evening Mike. with people being like. Where to get the like just big why? AM, I not allowed to have any. and Tom Allen said something bridge sticking on about how for like quick people? We tend to have that kind of teenager relationship with relationships in our like mid twenties and nightside because we we never had it then when we were young but now we kind of experienced it. Ever about a brief relationship in the book. And I did actually it was. It was quite stressful because I was I really WanNa buy about this relationship. It was my first ever relationship thirty three months. But when I was writing, I hadn't spoken to them for bow. So like I need to us that mission. I'm like completely out of the rang the announced like hi I'm writing a book. Would you mind being in? Like I'm not GonNa go from day one today. Hundreds or relationship they were like. No that's fine than they were ready for even dislike quite to add in about like a summary of the. That's the thing is my. Review of our times together. I I. Hype. They. Insomnia. I was quite mean. In the. Relationship. In the book. But. For me relationships are just Alien I started. Reading them. So that was said they would poly-amorous. So they had upon now. And then I was also. At the same time. But. They said I talk about that inside Mike I've never really been been in a poly-amorous situation before. and. But interesting thing. The icon person was a very different thing to read that monogamy walk fear. But it's a completely other thing to we like I'm GONNA go into a polymer survey ship, but you need to walk. A. Great I says a lot of what you need to do in yourself. Before you're just like Yep. This is GonNa what With socialized to be nobleness. Unfortunately. It's the same as with the boxes. That's how I see it. Is People have this need to say. There is. Enemy acquaintance friend crush lava. Boyfriend spend. What and the? No. I genuinely believe there are as many types of relationships as the relations between two people. and. I. Feel like I could meet someone amid that person. I would want would wait for us to have a monogamous relationship, but with other people now we would probably work better instead of poly-amorous situation and. and. In the same way as I have friends who You know I only talk about. With things every third month and I have friends that I talked to. About. Detailed stuff I think it's the same relationships why you can't. This. Idea of there was one person and it is the opposite of the gender you're assigned at birth and. Then, you had to get you on ninety all it has failed. It just feels so restrictive and. Doesn't feel natural at all. It doesn't. It says a think it sets you up for failure. It makes you feel like if it any point Guy Sprung, you have failed in its tank. To understand that I I think. Wasn't revelation that I I had the I experienced off that relationship was that. For me it was about deep had to soling romance as the like top of the relationship. Peres actually. If your friends of Witton you can find. Everything that you would need from us from a group of people. that. is absolutely fine A. Kind of now I get. Nearly every single. My friends, my friends, and I don't have any. Yearning for. Apartment. Because it's like I. AM, content. Seinfield Stuff like that. Violent. Is it a success? The wondering the curiosity will? Radiant angry I am. In a way not the people. Specifically at the people but just because. You know I am content now with not being relationship but doesn't mean the have. Trouble or hardship with. Find it difficult because I I do. I would like a relationship but a difficult to. Remain to access. So I think seeing things violent of saying. People. Discussing relationships loss time in incredibly disposable manner. I find difficult because it's like. Privilege the they. They're very privileged in being able to just essentially cherry pick people they will about with whereas I will. have. Like one or two people that. Finally attractive a year. which I know isn't true everyone France attractive but. It actually Dayton. It's like a needle high stock. This is a full moon If anyone is, let's just. Now. So You. Can out some of the royalties if you will. Be What percentage of the royalties are you willing to? One a while. And when you have one hundred partners, that's you have nothing to yourself. I because I I I only get getting when it comes to love island and stuff like that. I only got angry when people. Who are well-meaning start talking about how we need more plus size people in that we need more quickly no. Do you have any idea how horrific and traumatic that would be for that person and for us to watch? I, don't need to see fat girl getting rejected on TV so that I can relive my entire teenage. Yes. And people think it's such like none of these fictional people who live in a very different world than what I live in and I just WanNa. See these. Conventionally Attractive Boring Hut people make out get their. Emotions at his all very nice. But I don't want any part of it like these people hate me I don't WanNa think about how much they hate me and they would kill themselves. They were me. And I think I. Don't think people understand. How That spaces. Yeah absolutely and I think that's an example of. Like how representation isn't always good. representation is like the trump again, the top of the Pyramid of being like. We've done. This is brilliant but actually. You know from experience is it can be awful. Doesn't necessarily mean anything changes that can owners exacerbate the problem because? You then exposed to all the hatred. You. Get to see it. Go Sal voice before you a slightly naive to it. Oscar ensue. Around those You to me you are. So. Much of your strength. Maybe strong Impact you what makes you so powerful and just your existence. Is Your vulnerability you have this sort of? Strength through ability through strength thing. which I don't know I don't know is that. Is that a It sounds like a right wing sort of thing to say. The we're busy through strength. What? What is your relationship with Boehner Ability? And how do you use it? Are you aware of it? Yeah Just for also is is anything I'm not allowed to. Not Excel now. I think for me being. Invulnerable is like a is it's an assistant as a human. Human. Need. and. I think three social media, a lot of people think. Wrong to be vulnerable online but I think. The ME I'm. Incredibly, helpful for me to do that. When I'm ready to I'm when I came to. Most fake for me than anyone else. End It sounds. Funny Adam at it's not. It sounds it sounds conceited. But when I'm being Brady Real and vulnerable. If it helps someone else. Does benefit. That's A of the motivations however for me is because it's closure on something. It's being able to. See Closure for myself but oh, say sometimes when you're going situations, they can feel so isolating that. I've I've got year. You got. This is nice. We can't lie about people we don't. I'm. Spike about that on his bicker about my. Experience with. Sexual. Assault and undyed experienced isolating time. The I was like. I need to this surely to get out of had. On It was great. It was great and awful to hear how many people also like I got like I. Feel You. Yeah it's I say to anyone that wants to do that and be vulnerable online on their own terms. Do It on your own terms dining do it because you want. Validation. Because you you want support. Because it will make you feel better. Like closure is goten. autonomous. About it that's that's fine. I'm Mike Tan the by a piece for. The next issue of Gay, Times Abou. Is GonNa be mine victim impact statement would have read out in coal. If I had gone to call. And I'm with my therapist united. He's like. This is your closure. Y-. However, you'll forms I. Think is important to not let other people dictate. The reasons behind why? Oh, doing I think a lot of people could be like you're doing this because of this Jane is because you want. Attention as libel general, your attention this because I'm writing about something that I won't be breeding I want people to listen to. That's why shines it. Some for some people that went, what for some people that WANNA buy in diaries and keep it to themselves out to farm. But yeah, it is necessary for me I think Nola. And if people do that boundaries is so potent because district you've been vulnerable ones about thing. Doesn't necessarily mean that you then. Just open for anyone to get access to anything I think it's Whenever I've been vulnerable about a thing L. Sometimes get. People might EM's being incredibly? Intrusive about something. Like. Oh do you think maybe you're grandfathered this? This. Doesn't mean that from now on this. Doorway, into my soul that you can just bought into. Giving you this because that is what I'm giving you. And it can be kind of hard as A. Person? WHO's given a lot. To then say, no to stop like just sit. and. How are you good with boundaries like that I mean naked I'm quite good. I feel quite. The clock, a large When replied people? had. The steerings spike about. Being bribed. For Some Essentially Spike about the experience of being A. Survive in the criminal justice system. Style many messages some people? The I don't. Basically explaining the situation. and. STUMP PEOPLE WHO I can't say that they were sharing much information with me but I think it's boundaries you if I have jumped said this with. The Internet. I. Appreciate that resonated with you see. Make you feel. Comfortable enough to speak about however a WANNA response. and. The best people who write boundaries of the people that see something that's going on Massachu- at like. I'm holding space for you of got you. If you need a thing, I'm here like people just respect. I try and be strict. My favorite I always said is my favorite function is to go into the requests and does not even look any just delete all. Even. If they could be the best job ASEAN that I've. Never not. Gone. I one day one day. Able to do that. or D-. Do this. Yeah. I feel like I. Sometimes. I'll read on it'll be far five really nice ones in a row not like this is great. I love communicating with my community in its. They'll be some stick with you forever and you're like and You wonder if it's worth it for the Nice. People. For that one message is going to really know you yeah I think as soon as that balance becomes. A It's always like just just on the edge. I think as soon as that balance goes the other way on doing the same thing but. The moment it's better than it's bad but still. Remember because I you know I delete. I don't delay masters but like. They're in the request for a reason we are you I'm afraid I'm a new that you can consume something from me. Even if that's a nice thing. Mailbox realized that. De. Techniques to engage with every burn the time I'm. Preservation of time and space, Sim born so. It. By if you listen, you never got response. Do what in the deletions requests afraid. Of outside unlinked where it's it's the heading was. So you're getting this link because you've asked me about something I've already answered hero how you can pay for that information. So it's like my podcast though my Patriot on my book Oh, he has an article that I wrote for free and things. So I really hope you get your answer from this and usually people get really pissed off. Okay. So what was it that you actually want? So did you want know this? Did you want me to pass take time to explain this very simple thing And that again is thing of. In your head saying Oh you're such an asshole right now. On the other hand. Who who are you? You wouldn't go to has been the cafe in sit down go. Okay. So. Explain gender. You know you. Yet leave. Doing something. But having branch. Decide that you're on you the only pastor. The I think. Is Nailing a really honestly you. Say. I'm just like I. Used to the inventors of. I enjoying it so much. I love having a patriotic just for me. I've always had one for the podcast that feels stiff. It feels more transactional. Notice Brian, I think. After one. Please please. Do I'm giving a flat tour soon my new flat. I'm signed of your face so many just two, hundred, eighty, two that I'm sending. Stay we're in the background in my hallway. So really bad. Stomach, photos of myself. So I asked you the last question the last time you did this but I actually say stuff happens going to ask you again. And you can be you're GONNA do whatever you want meaning. You can also just be sending if you WANNA be. A. Just, plugging myself I don't know why I thought. It was a cat of. Show me cat. So you have a when did you out? It's your. Yeah I'm. Out On, the twenty first of October. Why do I have a copy at? Special friend coming. Last question. You're in the delivery room now twenty three and you have just been born. Jamie. Ciro. Yes old. Jamie. Oh they're crying and weeping because as lights and sounds everywhere they just in the womb. It was all nice dock and comfortable and they're you know you're holding them and they're looking at you and they're saying. What the fuck is this. I. Felt like when I when I Came to consciousness in the womb a realize this is GonNa be nice whatever I've been plopped into. This seems amazing. But now it's seems pretty chaotic and loud and what is happening what they look at you in that like so I can see you, you mean, twenty three years. So you must know what's what's in in me. What is this going to be like is it just this for the next twenty, three years of now noises and people everywhere all. What's GonNa Happen what's going to happen to us? What would you say to teeny tiny baby you. Tiny baby I would say. You're going to have a great time. But what's going to happen is you need to. Remember. To. Joy. Your lie. And that. The things that you enjoy as a child that when you're older, you can sit in those things. Need to monetize. Dined forget about the joy. That you have when you are experimenting with yourself when you are teenager because it's going to get a bit scary in a bit. But don't forget how fun it is to just. Have a law. So say that the baby's looking at you. The baby's saying. But I can't change anything because it's already happened. So. You're saying that. I'm going to get to have a lot of fun until I reach a certain age. And I will miss out on a lot of fun. that. That should have been easier for me. And what will then happen? Will I eventually lands have fun. You will eventually. Yes. Eventually learn. To embrace your fun. But trying to Adia? Because otherwise, it's just going to be. Boring You know how to do it now. Just is just Just letting now. He is on. Site about asking that in another area. Would you have fun. Plucky a book. Like my book stressful. because for some reason, Reese Witherspoon is above me in the Trans Job. And UNDERSTAND WHY is she? A SECRET IDENTITY But. Let. Out on the tiny Tiber available in. Independent bookstores in the. Oga Bookstores in the UK I believe and online. And in the states and you can also get the opal fashion bread by yours truly Ed. On the same day. Doing joy gay's the word in London and lots of your lgbt in bookstores have signed campaigns. And certainly, two hundred pages you can see that in a week. Use, it. And if you if you will buy it. Is Really really good and I'm not really sure why that is what they tell everyone who's an new also they make it very clear that preorder can make break the book. Even, considering it Priori now, these preorder and Sun. City twelve quid. Cheaper. It'd be like it says so much about your that the way you your book come on it's not that long and it's not that expensive. Instead of saying, it's really fattening about. How it's funny. It's relevant essential reading. If you WANNA know anything about gender. Yeah. It's funny it's it's got house of debauchery about how I got to a of wearing superclubs. Things I've said before. I, hope you line. I'm sorry business hunt for the reason I wasn't allowed. That's unfair. Any social media anything that's black people can find you. Can. Find me on instagram. At Jamie school. Dust. Like winning and then like dust. Check out my new series on Islay. On Youtube? Which scored in the series, which is available. Now. What's going to happen now I'm GonNa say thank you and goodbye but then we're going to take a three second break. Then I'm going to ask you five extra questions full the extra bit unpatriotic So now I'm going to say. Thank you and goodbye. Thank you for listening and thank you so much. Jamie for stepping up and being guest on my podcast I very much appreciate it as always if you want to hear more from Jamie, you can either go back and listen to their fest made of Human podcast appearance which. I want to say that it was episode around one hundred thirty. At, go back and I want to say January but I don't. purely guess. I just remember what flat when we did it. So that must be. Two years ago a year and a half ago. Or you can just such the name and this isn't necessarily I do apologize. And Please do priore that book I. Just did it shameful to say that I had not already done it but I have now I was greedily hoping to get like a Friend copy, but it's not always that authors have company control over who gets free free copy also. I punched the not your phone also wants to support them. So I'm Priori friends books. Can also recommend you know Mac Watson Foam a guest we do episode every new Ya. Told me about the year that has passed. The has come feel like this. New. Year's Eve is GONNA be. You know because this year has been. And it was mark written. An incredible book called contacts. And I got to read. Version of it the way it wasn't even a book I had prince it out I didn't have to print it out but I wanted to as printed out, kill the rainforest and it was with. Every single rainforest that died from that because it is such a good book, it's about a guy who? Decides to commit suicide and then sends a message out to his entire. phonebook an intense office phone and. I. Don't know what you're going to be reading about take it from me. This book is about so much more. than. What it might see on the cover this book is about connection. This book is about. Coincidence, this book is about. Like with all of mock spokes, it's about humanity. And humanness end. Time and. The press on that I, it's has explained its I, read it all in one go. I could not put it away and that comes out the end of Toba a WanNa say the twins Maya. So please do go and pre-order this while and Enjoy it because it's so good and deserves to He decides to do. Well, you know that because you also love him as much as I do also I wanna say thank you. So the people who have supported me on Patriae on in this past month and before that, thank you very very much. This is A. Strange time to be doing anything in and if you're not a patron, but you feel like this podcast has ever brought you anything. Good. If you feel like you've gotten anything out of it if it has even just kept you company for a bit while you needed company than do go to Patriot dot com for slash. Made of human podcast no Mo Pod, the short. The short version, Moh Pudi and you can support with whatever you want episode. And if you give five dollars more. You become you can have your name read out loud on the. If you so I what I've done now is I have staff to the Patriots for me as as a human as a creator. Of all of the things you know of my instagram lives of. Rising of. Everything me as a passing creating things at a lot of which is free on the Internet. So. If the aspect of this particular type, of Patriot, while you pay, you know the made of human podcast which is per episode and it's in dollars because I don't have to change it. All of those things that all seems like too much feel free to go to a Patriot dot com slash of Hagan? IS IF HD AND There is monthly fees we can choose choose to give five. No, five pounds a month, ten pounds a month fifteen pounds of months whatever you want. But if you WANNA stay on this, Patriot this absolutely glorious and I appreciated end. Love you. Now, I will say the names of the Friends of the podcast, the VIP, the people who are giving with five dollars Omo per episode. For the made if you went back. Now we're up against time because I have a cake in the oven and I do think. well, I don't know how long it needs. So I need to run out and make sure I check on it but I wanNA give you the time that you deceive being amazing supporter. So. Thank you so much to the following. Wonderful people. Thank you too. Amy Melody Andrea Koppel Rockin Andy Walker. Emery happen Berry Nelson Beth Payton Cherry Windsor Class Fletcher Daniel Cody say. Data born by Anson Chan Privacy Source Aurora Tara Tops Galway Cast Georgia Jillian, Davidson Harrison that remind not I know heaven. Sharona is Johnson Johnny Croats Joe Joe See Catherine Williams Katie Hatfield between two pillows and Kirsten e Costa Davidson Lindsey, brushing 'em dash made. Murray Fraser Megan Roberts poll swallow PF Rachel Early Rag Doll Rianne rivers Robert Knowles Rubbing Capela Ruth flurry welcome you seem news on. New Flory love you Samantha kitson Sarah Alexandra Plumer Sheena Sheena machette Cole. I feel like that's new as well. Welcome. Simon James Retiree Korea. Victoria late, and so he Stephenson. Thank you all of you wonderful people and if you want to join that is patron DOT COM Moh P. O. Od. You have been wonderful I am very excited to get back on track. It comes out every single Wednesday thing is cross. That will happen very soon about astronaut I just want to massive thing you Jamie for being an incredible guest and thank you Dave picking full the patience have editing episode to Harry Brain for writing and recording jingle and Steven McNicoll the logo this podcast is produced by me speak to you next Wednesday.

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Episode 60: AFL Finals 2019 Week 1 Recap and Week 2 Preview

Lace Out AFL Podcast

1:16:50 hr | 1 year ago

Episode 60: AFL Finals 2019 Week 1 Recap and Week 2 Preview

"Podcast with your hosts Christopher pepper and Jamie Wallace usually we start off with Al Big blustering theme song. It'd be to hot coming into these white. Unfortunately bad at the football community was struck down with the death all Newton out legend on and off the field that was Danny Frawley authorities Amac of respect just probably just chat myself and Jamie about really waste so saw then he fully apply and also as a media representative as well to I think also how oh he's just he's death but also leading up into the last number of years challenges made Louis Lot of people have plenty myself self ed select challenges we fit in to see someone unfortunately pass away if mental as being being a big part of the reason for it happening and the tragedy in itself to people who've posted things I've lost ost Kobe's with his whole facebook whether it's videos on multiple media saw excetera just how much of an impact it's had on the thing was is it was a complete a complete shock didn't didn't see it coming whatsoever Jamie obeying Bali so were you overseas when you found will we aback yeah everyone so our was in Bali. Yeah was in the afternoon or I heard it as about at two thirty in in the afternoon when over there so that would about full thirty mob and Tom has two hours difference between volume album album Yep and it was just a text anther Jamais. I'll touch it took to the group chat and then from there it was sort of just complete shock because you're not really are really locked any Rowley Liam so the last autumn breed is of two days of endless watching and listening to a lot of his stuff on the bounce and listening to the old triple amphibole bowl staffan just just blew side. That's all it is the raw it's more. It's more sad. Nothing more shocked because I said I not certainly not we had a family. A family function way we had footy tipping announced the winners of that in an a Foodie was launched a bid to the foot and then at the free the balance zone and he so you see Nayan you watching TV not thinking that just I've forty I listen forty-eight hours on. You'll gotTA gotta be getting a a message. M also sign on the Group A group macy's came through that or the gossip heard that tongue before we thought in a car accident want my law so desert on news dot Com Laura you and it said footy legend pass away in Ericsson soon as you read data and you read what happened to put together to sort of figure out and it's just a real. It's a real shame that things can get that bag that putting tend to draw people to heaven. It's amazing and it's the same sort of thing long as in the air pouring pouring of emotion from people that you normally wouldn't expect just I you know I go his way. Remind if anything happens like regardless of we give ourselves take on Taiwan's etc we for Gela Yep on it was just lucky. You're eating things that people normally wouldn't size. It feis but you just wouldn't expect it from cullum yearned booking Singapore the Mormon faith and he was completely shocked niece. Thank goodness for the football club damage join saiful bro You do sort of sit back and guy yes sometimes you yet drift away from friends and family and sometimes used I had to open up about situations and etc yeah but Dick Damn real human in Hobart that we have is really going to just check the the ago at the door and realize you gotta so leg. Everybody can say hey todd yep. I don't think you know and and the media has been so as that as that bowl is on his is on is is rolling in its unfolded the following in front of us. You know you start to you know raid the reports about relationships business deals and financial strain and suits of things just that that the that infallible walk on Saturday not as you said we all watch the bounce as well and you wouldn't give it a second thought that that was somebody who was two days away from from from an accident that that now the dead. You'd never think that you'd have out you'd never watched that paypal or is this sort of stuff but you've never watched Gawk. I two days later. That's that's what's going to happen. A you can't say and it's happened with a couple of logistics Institu- in this situation but a lot of comedians it's happened to allow famous people who would be the loss of Robin Williams is one that comes to mind that you wouldn't think that he would be someone who's taken their unlock because of the the image that I try but that's why Diana's mosques exactly what's going on Jobs Molin just saas can somebody hey. Hey you going just chicken. You know could be the difference between you then saying in a couple of days Thompson is a really sad story and the media itself Elf can be absolute assholes Hongyuan talking about so that they can turn stories and twisted Mike Crept Robinson but just the Amana of man all halls a TV T- deep reinforcement of of what not just hated but the way that they handled it as being in media communities. You pretty respect pretty pretty proud of the way that the it handled everything nights it's really easy to go into how it happened and all that sort of stuff and they sort of touched on but just the GERALDTON had sixteen pages on Mon choosed. I and it's just it's just grinding. It looks at Fox footy on Monday annoy they would. They just pretty much walked everything that that were talking. Danjus focused on him Yep every radio station the stories at Kamien event but he was as a person listen and more importantly as pliable saw family man excetera was anybody who had a bad word betty. This is a bit of a they may in my age demographic but to me he was almost like he was almost like my Blue Ridge Dole all my the equivalent of bacteria win to me in my generation united he was he was the the audit I deny much as a football player Arlon Bang you know what you're what you're saying and he now but I knew more as I media personality who really made football fun yeah. I think that's one thing that we've sort of lost a little bit over the last probably tunnel surplus. Jesus is the funding football. You're an idiot every Tommy on it'll be like hey how fellows and it was just that country in his voice and it just made you ea- connected with the common main but as a as a fullback he plight two hundred and forty games. Nothing's one hundred seventy dollars a cubie role was serene on something that's going to happen. That's that's massive and he you know he was just a an honest fullback and applied on applied on the Ganji go to realize that he was playing on rabbits. Don Stolz he had lock it at the other rain. So you had a cold group. He played through a lot of Laney's incubator as well so he but he just blade for that club lamda clubbing had mark Roberts he was speaking autopsy's behalf and Tom and he was shot an e r former teammates coming in just signing. Everybody just just couldn't believe it is it's just one of the things that you cannot believe because it was just so completely at an away. Yeah I think for me like you know we've had four coaches. Get get sacked this as you know Steph Hawaii or what not at the time you off well. That's really big. You know that's that's a lot for that person to take on. You got to find another job while they're going to do now because you know the names Bainbridge sparked by the media and people's opinions this down this is this. Is someone like that. We will never see a or he from again and it's it's a it's a highly of Mike's focused backing Gar- The guy too hot. Did we making a bad time as a Richmond arch hottest and was a catalyst for a lot of the issues that he was having you know he was also in charge of the coaches association. Throughout the virtually through the entire is and drug saga. That's a lawyer Pike on board as well so you so any imagine the the Feis that he's tried to chartres on behalf of all that it's our e couldn't owning much. You can do any more than what he was era. It didn't matter how they fit there. He just wants everybody in the room Olsen mm-hmm does he didn't really care about himself. He just wanted my show that every playa or every person on was Lucky Hegang might number told you the stories of he you would just ring people throughout the night hey gown Hagen hang on because that's what he was lock or he. Every I F ou- coach who was sacked during the time on their applies or people who are under adversity the Ol- come out and said that he was the first person on the fine to them making coal checking in say when they wanna go and have lunch together together coffee together checking and see how they were. What can I want Hakin to to make them feel better and I think I've heard four or five people come out in the last two talk about it was always hey that they are the most to hey bang curly from from the toy football bowl community for everybody? Listen to these podcasts. He's GonNa be solely used an aunt and I don't know if you've pets but when he was on triple m with you know with daimaru and and jibe and Jerry and billy and and all of that that was probably my five or Thomas Football the Eric and Wendy and that was when I first came intra blame same. FM stationed on football and your he was just the diversity that you tell you was a this fraud and a Saturday was probably the most enjoyable time around football somme yet. He's set it. Hey Hey satellite quiz ozores playstation three. I remember remember and I still remember as remember listening what's the phrase sixty feedback and I were just Paul and John La and narrow sl this spot was the spot was the one who dirty up the most saw he would. He would dirty open when you say when he do you even he would be at the questions and Danny but I the move along ny began to be a lot of that might shei-pa none of that will fight for the answers you've now move on and that was the Elliott Bay for trading a yellow diamond for trading jittery man. It was just yet it was it was it was it was gall and even hate it for a while because of these he's back on CNN. It was just hearing that familiar voice Ganga's again team be just he that on the radio. I put a small back on your face in whenever going to he oh he'd have I will say that small ever again so that's Vance the bounce to May as Bob it but that'd be hollow now you know I don't say that petition the the golden face they're trying to make it a formalized or recognized award in the game and in one on one on on me. I think I think you know de defender. Will maybe not the bathroom at the fist but the golden fish should really you know is still a cracker will auburn award that he's he's responsible for bringing the defendant back into the Amla and you know what he'd be. The kids love it and that was the other thing too wasn't just that also love the keys led the bang. I E everyone gets the goods that Hill Gazelle mess like all the words he brought into the media it was yet. It's got to be a Shaima not on what they can do. The bounce on a hefty continue it yep often I some a- as I've been I've been listening Tula triple m's dolphin and going back to those sort of as those funny thoughts on Saturday ice I just busy chizzy myself like he is sorry Finey Yep because he not only took the Mikio himself when it wasn't counties why you'd also it also are not to win. Ed stuffed up Wykeham though the final hesitancy that I was the the Mike scandal LEDA whereas email to the makeup girls saying that I he wanted to look a bit Dhaka lock he's because he realized that he looked at watch on TV and he was he was he was gonNA. It's GonNa hug down everyone at somebody actually did that. Not Danny Frawley actually rider name. I'll in that gut pop ran. The foxy is rare law Nari audie that one obscenity off the show. I'll always Brown on on the web on home like you said is being so much going on from an exile perspective link you start to remember the Bhutan sorry we're going to try to get on with but we're going to get more importantly on the day. Take a Taika my turns to to check in with your family friend. Hey Gallon ends. Danny Frawley Lago said now one of the reasons why we do what we do is talk barefoot. You have been a fun and people like him are to a degree the reason why you see how he enjoyed it. That's a way WanNa do enjoy when athletes and if if you don't WanNa if you do awesome but with appreciate it but just to put a lot of speed on the world Saimaa Danny Frawley from unite from everyone he you know you're going to be eastern. Let's get these bad boy up and running more friend. Let's chat about the football from awakaned full games down so you guys talk about you. Guys did such a good job on the weekend in my absence while all the way she did it harm and what does that. Also you know what why don't we do a meet meet round sorta special a plan on doing another one just family in other things too. I trust them contrast Jack Sisterhood stop say three things you never trust. Your family with one is money Bruce podcast. I've heard of definitely heard the the money sort of things calm yeah it was it was fun because what happened was that we said Hi look love machine. You went into the equipment is really it will do. It's one of those two games because we went on the fraud. I not get into that shortly Komo sister-in-law John Dean Laura and he she's like I'll be out of it. I'm like okay and so she rolled through it Knob it was good. It was possible twenty minutes churches to bet the first couple of Gyns and what we noticed it was interesting too because that was a good games what happened for the second circuit was worth tournament and that's we'll have a quick recap the heads up about what's going on these white toy so so Joel. I'm just a quick recap the fraud I knocked. I'm calling just alive at Gillette theft. I live minutes where I called on was full golfing. That's all I'm and it was just my cup foot from then even not in lending I scored in the last loss quarter and I just dominant we were seeing about eight rose stories from the top of the and the NC stained get anything they but to watch a game of Fulton a really good position because you can see the whole ground hot to understand who's dot the WHO's called the bowl and everything yeah it'd be good having names on the shirts because you can't even say the faces lead align the knives the number the interesting thing that'll really took out of it was the the why the collingwood switched the economy. One saw Niger spread spread to the other side and Angelo guy with him Yep and once I got that onslaught funds to live in minutes it was this like it's pretty much. It was pretty even after that but and I couldn't I couldn't combat it yeah still so I bought him just again. He was fantastic eight on a sign of danger. Fuel was based on Graham over said so I would say it's all about him because he's run on that wing was just sitting a everything up up coming out of the back lawn moving into the Hawk four law and it was everybody well I would say the dangerfield would've Ain Podesta from anybody actually he had a moment in the the third quarter where you really be burst out of the Centerfield in any sort of what is going on over there fan club fan club wherever they burst out of the center and he should've early kicked all the he is an addict offer that will pass if he kickback though John would have been completely deliver arm for all in that in that third quarter started the teak along a little bit in that he went into that in China the middle didn't didn't live at home and they don't think the other game the other game tuna was Pendlebury Gull at of the stoppage Yep Yep and that just set them on the Mary wikipedia quite taught interestingly enough automatic lock on TV but for me Hewitt interest perspective wasn't that great of a Guy Nah. The schools are schools for Allott very flattering and these as we this is where we spike in the number of tall about kinds of Akai. Do what would you prefer. Would you prefer game. That's very taught but low scoring or July like a student does shy because it's close doesn't mean it's going to be a great guy. Guy Means Weizer defensive at the moment and which is corn of dont get because you've got to kick goals to win the game while my father-in-law watching or knowledge in the game at the Leggy and pub and he said to me guys since teams get thirty point but it goes up. Sorry five calls up here I just I just noticed that lay then it doesn't matter what point of the guy that thirty points has had just missed the game from the and I'm a pretty accurate fog goes out most dangerous just put it away instaed during the cheeky shit around seeking that sort of stuff but the thing thing with authorities Hammy. Tom's you seen teams that are that far up end up losing because they go back into this show. I can't say how many times I lost when they obtain nine four five calls up minimum and going to the show because I should be closing the game out and they just shutting everything down. It's it's ridiculous play. The Guy Mt L. at Malcolm Blight said a perfectly last homelike shakes. It's the team at the high school that wins so why wouldn't each. It's a really valid point it we saw defensive. It was on stage in the game calling what are running out of the middle if you sold his calling to running out of the middle there's a turn in the middle middle ground kind through the middle. I didn't have anyone in the fold lawn to kick it to because like because the team defense will yeah I didn't have anyone he could and so they had to virtually stop and wait for people to run and it just you just see the groans and people going talking through forward down the altar choices in the push up the ground and be one out all the back leave the Ford Dan they blow himself and run the risk of the bowl guard at the top and died understand why coaches don't leave people down forward a lot more just want. We'll I kind of did that would've if the guy was there but even if it was bought by Jamie Elliott having so much of imply live he was smoking on the weekend and he was all Yup Tyler Adams Marceca's. I'm a big Fan Amar chick every time I seem to watch calling what he just seems to he is not the number one number two four but he's just takes grabbed. He's always muck up how can a bucket load journey how was just picking kicking things off lift rotten Cena and the NFL's Cure Nanette Lee doc- More Logulu Z. Z. E. Dining catch was leprosy. I think I think that last quarter hey in how would just mopping up. Why Jalaun didn't change the guy plan wants not? I didn't want to the other thing that you love when I was well. He's at if Abbott Shoka. Oh Yeah Donkin goading. Did we understand that Brian would ditties knee Kelly. Do you have a great game so too much reliance on the big stars. I think I'll say I'll say this on Chattan mark and Laura that is it usually what happens is throughout the middle of the year. It's throughout the the the rounds. It's your your top five that a win. The game mm-hmm when photos Tom comes in the difference isn't top of the food chain. It's you bottom fall applies. If you calling with butterfly flies competed logs bottom firefly's flies I was so much better across the board you look at the stats inlet the bottom twelve players. I think there's only calling in terms of statistics trips Bakti points was cullingworth is only two in the bottom twelve shut thou working hell hotter. I will say one thing Dr Hellwig ago. I said a Kaplan James Jewett is he's the oldest calling Bain six to seven goals up in front if he wasn't any yep another another example where else I you now what are probably got that one wrong because of the NCAA the law he was he was the only reason why I didn't get blown away by more in the first half of that guide your his visual I am I went to two on either side. BYLES is seven Steidl Verdes fistfight with six tight wherever that's fair because I was at the Y. which is just an could not get a seat or standing room at the sports by their everyone vase packed off the best sports bar probably incurred in Bali? John Haimes James Is James John David is you serious. You're all right. I'll put it this way Maggie's tactile than Dirk diglis jeans I okay the better definitely not taught no. I probably just packed just packed because end make sense because of the ground that was ninety three two thousand nine hundred and a half thousand people are not for that Guy Amazing. All was massive was union last save aned the whole thing about the the clash jumpers really novel gentleman. Actually this is one of the things I was going to make him calling need to change range. I'm sick of it every club. Every time I called with a class jumper plies calling would it's never calling what s to China sway he can sway Joel fucked his Eddie McGuire think he's GonNa Eighties every way but can the F. L. grandparents pickles and decided I this is this is the law. This is what we're going to do was it every other club has the bowery for the small agree. It's bullshit you had enough of it and two he was a gentlemen's agreement. Just come out and say every club has to have an away streep I very seven away street might on on and they give me these it's black with watch drops and it's what with black stripes business where black and white Netanya constitution yeah you know what when it's it's the AFL version of gun control because when it was written new constitution it wasn't that much of a do but one hundred plus years lighthouse way now everything is a multibillion dollar industry on TV. It's difficult to see things have to change change and it's peace week if you think that the home team has to change because of you like gentlemen's agreement. I'll be ways written well every club every club. Has I Shit Looking Away Jersey. I'm clearly I understand where he's coming from from a brand perspective Baba concentration bullshit problem is it's only that club that doesn't seem to ever have to wear an away Jersey don't have on because there's not a force them to make one because they got the ahead so far up their asses. I don't WanNa do it. Just make it a whole wijers or the big lock training Lucky Chinese singlets with with a big black second one in the middle of it came what you do but like we can't say this time listeners but we because we do these Valiere a you obtain sort of set. We've got two grants. Jamie's got the Melbourne demons background with the Natural Navy Blue Strip melons away strip. Strip is the Royal Blue Strip. It works perfectly. It works. It's that's all it needs to be and we've tried everything under the Sun. You had the the SUV alon whereas Monty mole from Pale ranges job. That's not every clubs trotted sometimes just a simple thing I might the damn thing rifle wiki. Mike just old black lack Mike at all. What do something different column? I don't care what you do. You not bigger than the game even though you think you you're not bigger than the Guy Niagara Guy that sighing they've gone into a preliminary final that we're GONNA have a chat to in a moment which is west coast. What I did did through Essendon on the way again? Thank you S. Known for ruining bottles position. I wished I did not turn up. I got manhandled on that Thursday Norton and that will buy one hundred sixty to sixty one so we'll talk in a couple of points with talkin obliteration bought fifty five big one anes and they didn't even near Ball. I cannot say knickknack as based. He's a based the why he was come on look look look here's rocket against it doesn't matter you go to God but he was jumping. All it was revenues. I'm bowl and we've say that many but he was just in every way Oh one other thing by the White House is lasting Brodie Grundy got to see him live. He is another midfielder. He's not all Auburn's is the best Ruckman of Gorny for my from around the grounds perspective is being made in the game hold onto that can ask ask you two questions off to go through the stuff or up beautiful. Let's go through but say that they were amazing. It was good to see you know looking at the peak of the Guy Human and what the spread was it was a Nava uh even sprayed by the ball the eagles in front of goals as well Walker wasn't just lift to one guy again. I'm glad Zion even even spread because I kicked seven naccache seventeen fourteen ecedented Lockheed awo Hawaii not always by a hundred well case. I were fold GonNa be so enough next year but I had so they've had thirty scoring shots to sixteen. They had Kennedy Keith Full Kris kick full audio that was the crypts and Jona. You'd realize it was the same one but they kicked. twenty-six more inside Fifties Rawlins kicked three Waterman ski two dollars Victory Ali Shakes they were just everywhere but then if you have a look it was the best shoe we don crypts get your he's just amazing shade not mayor you're of Collingwood Really Jeddah. Fully jettas played some good football in the finals. Apparently I did forty two that grain foll- Melvin number of years ago Kennedy again. It's look stringer nothing super moody nothing. Who else could we Dylan? She'll did nothing Andy McGraw which teams gamble food is fantastic epsile sod out of the back lawn like I don't understand why he has his three steps and bounce they were they had they just got. I just got a balloon around. He thought what the Eagles weren't dowling that well. It could be a bit of that false economy because it was only essendon so it'll be interesting this Wykeham GonNa Fraud. I know it's Gyn looking forward to it. Thank same. NC SAME OFFERING TC road doc but yeah that would just that would just and they diagana really bring it to who are now the same uses of of the eighty LV IFM which will loan straight-sets Jong applying at harm released on applying the into a Hunt song-gon Dongguan I play home games at GM heights beyond what Gabum cj then would be won't be this is tough. T's tough tough titty your second pools combustibles nothing digest the ball. Yes hip was brilliant shoe was it was nothing Zach Merrett Xikai Budweiser Merit Yep said is the other not module got mixed up with any McGrath slut would've lost more. I don't I pull my hair. Blow crews probably eight inches toll than you you and probably a good twenty five thirty kids heavy than you not a smart thing to do and smile what he meant that you got everything you deserved socket all right. Let's move on they. Yes I coming into this game and we'll have a quick chat about it in a moment but I really think they're going to be tough to tough to me this week again. New appealing and you know he's GonNa be against Richmond the reckon ritual westcoast. I has between waste automated note. Ah Yes yes Richmond West Coast. That's sorry I think what was it yes no or not yes it is Richmond was test because Richmond and calling mayday chocolates over Jay Jay Farner. I'll tell you what that's going to be a rippin Juliette but let us not can't the chickens. We saw what happened last year okay. Let's have a look at a guy that really disappointed as now up the two games that got left which was the GW Sag Wfan doggies kind and Brisbane Lions Richmond Richmond game ever those two which was more disappointing from your perspective probably the Brisbane Richmond one okay so that they've gone down belie a sniff just under tangles yeah it was almost the boys playing mean like the battle-hardened battle-hardened Richmond team against Doi's that were applying I fono or what we spoke about on last Tuesday was exactly we'll you know we'll we'll be by feed exactly what happened against Richmond kipp would and the other one mixed sti- nothing didn't fire as especially hip would now I keep with he's now being in the League for five years and has put on probably a kilo of Muscle Yup Yep and has stopped developing. You've also got a look at it. From perspective of who is he playing you implying against lame Jones wasn't wasn't flying against the same frosty wasn't playing against the giants Foley or anyone but he was playing against the virtually the number one defense in the back in the League Dylan grens completely shut down all jolly cameron didn't get a sniff by way yet. I just Richmond Depot. I had to do also wanting to go out and shave their head like Dustin Martin. If that Paul Dumb luck hating on the weekend jive away. I'm GonNa take my daughter Dan again at dusty knowing he had no kicks on the wakened gained seeks and he's not even if Ford what what does that site about him. Non kicked six goals. That's that's the talk that's a phone calls. That is a false top game. We nothing I roam. There was nothing could go wrong with him at bats. I'm Tom Brisbane Web. Were whore whore defending human life that he you do not let apply like him get goals out of a stoppage and have no one body checking anywhere along that path awesome not I did. I didn't have any money didn't have anyone on him and it also says something that Wayne Base Plywood probably hodge now once again funnels experience but also expect that he mata got some support Zorka Neil Robinson Yada now anivers- Lavar five who named in the base Dada would probably be the youngest one so what that shows is that once again Olga battle-hardened battle-hardened pliers were able to step up to that live because it's it's a it's a completely different guy McCabe songs another channel football bushy follow fobel's completely different in in the older ones with experience rabble to make that jump and the others weren't able to do so and unfortunately now they've whilst Brisbane whilst Robinson with a hamstring excites me now and lock reset a few weeks ago. He's Mungo that you would go in a battle with any ease a lot of respect for him. You're disabled light. Once I actually thought I was watching the rugby. The League will pause boy. Martin derailed snaps on the foot strike through the big sticks not six points. It's on the walked out after that point and Vedeno the the funny pot of Betty's what's the when he when he when he's looking screen but they're gonNA be hot debate. I think they're on a mission Richmond. They're not gonNa have happened what happened in LAS G at all. The good thing is that's why the top spot Brisbane Cannery Group. I applied hymies. Miss wake the Gandhi Planetarium who probably was the biggest shock out of the weekend to be honest with the humiliated attain that author. I was GonNa say what we said. He's off of this was done. Obey the gaming around this would be the hardest out of a lot but once again smidge under ten Golsby's dolls was one boy Yup Yup I didn't it was like Dougie's season finished our on such such a hard for goodness Nisi one four out of the last five yeah I just in turn up. I bet you that the tame in that half of the droll and tamed has a huge cyber late. The doggies didn't gather regen for sure I mean like doggies could really that the foam this guy with his go with is just do it where the week before the finals and Tames Iowa and killed the doggies momentum and Jilani. We know what they're locked. I've after the bar this sheet is she and yeah. I just think that I mean. GWA's like all the good players like once that the doggies kicked off when hauling the first couple goals a game and then after that it was nothing seeks God like he seeks goals to thirteen off the halftime and one-sided yeah. Look what happened half. I look the funny thing is halfway. Through the third quarter was there was only ran about fourteen twelve to fourteen point point difference. They're just put the pedal to the Metal Bang Smash Them Right. I smashed him. Good Essay. Taibbi Green didn't get wakes because really what did he do. It's on the loading that you would have thought maybe pot unloading might hear how you guys these days but have you check out the best again whitfield ever since he ran away from a drug test he's biting fantastic. terrain tire hotpot rain is the bull so almost the best comeback of the resurrection of a Korea in recent memory he was he was finished armory don yes come back into these tame lean and picked him up. Almost I player that was just making up numbers. He's turned into a solid tag and now he's. He's is not just getting a game he is. He's getting the best he's getting a favorite of the pill himself and then you got show once again. Finlayson look the other way McRae a Stela so he's suckling hege was ducklings goal in the first twenty seconds of the Game Lipinski so all the big Britt deluding has probably played his last game. Yes that's incumbent absent clips to offering because you have been a fantastic servant and all of that club's levels are Richmond number one draft p Reynolds laws view has is just come through and just got two hundred hundred broke down to two hundred in the AFL EP. Andy's KOPF didn't tell anyone doing his job and then he knew that on done piously off again but he did what he editor. The Dow fell. Bring somebody in there. One thing old pre scared about is not same people got amber when you see like genuine talented young pliers when also are Knowlton's nee bockel backwards on that that was a that was a windsor that he does not good to hear that he hasn't the Nicer L. Back after Christmas rolling because he he's one block that I genuinely liked to watch because he's an excitement machine it just it just goes to Charlotte. He's was really nasty and didn't do it and having as have we say just been innocuous well look on Dunkin's on Varna did he do you actually do it which Dunkin dic- DIC- L. Levi Greenwood same thing. ICL Yup. I remember when Jack Dis against the bogies last year he was running bump and sort of change direction. Look even Alex Johnson the she seinfeld lost cities. Yes wrong place at the wrong Yup and but they GONNA be they're GONNA be Scott. Kirby cracking Guy Newsweek if Brisbane if Brisbane dot comeback imply locked applying the second half the season W S and then I play calling. Would I'm free the J. Dame's he a birth birth weight birth MC J James I am by with proven with proven funnel success at J. I said it's just it's tantalizing it. Could you imagine he imagine if it was so if you were if if you collingwood who would you prefer would you prefer been or would you prefer Jay w I think I'd prefer or is been sending in front of Nantie plus thousand screaming people on the CJ again Yep. AH ARE WOODEN WANNA play over one apply. GWA's because they've got a Ford lawn to the moment that's taking along awfully in midfield is humming knowsley and the back ones doing a good job of the monetary so who you aren't so if all these these wakes games because we are going to have a last minute exit was talking about but look this way along with the voice on the boys on housing and ultimate Jimmy Owens and Jimmy All right ladies and Gentlemen Holding Otas Megan Kalimantan Okay this week it's semi final time here in Toyota Two thousand ninety nine thou- Vinyl series this Friday night September thirteen seven fifty pm Australian Eastern Standard Time at the MCG and as we've said everybody everybody loves a G Jilong verses the West Coast Eagles. I decide this. I'm going to put it this way. West Coast by far galls minimum kyw alike. If hope is if you're saying a west coast richmond freely think Jr along have the firepower iconic sort lost weight point Hawkins Hawkins Nine Hawkins it didn't. He hasn't fought for the last couple of weeks yep. He's got to be flying on a gun this week. Whether turn whether it's going to be mcgavin the back lawn j just just the West Karst back on built like brick. She six of them electron get through that okay. I'm with the ongoing West Coast Westcoast Richmond trailing Yep. That's all I'll say it I think once game I'm sorry much reliance too much for Lonzo Seinfield too much reliance on the Jhelum Midfield and I think that the way that the mosquito fleet up for a west coast fly. They're going to be too quick. Defenders Ain't Richmond Geelong. Here's they recommend who's GonNa play on Nick Net. Is that mistake lasley lastly Stanley. Oh no no. I didn't play him loss white but this back this way then he's GonNa get Peace Teichmann all right so it's GonNa be gelling versus West Coast West by five dollars. You're saying something similar so that made the week after it's gotta be Richmond verses the West Coast of the Eagles on Saturday night seven twenty five. PM Eastern Standard Time at the JAB hot Brisbane Verses G. Double Double U. S. I reckon Madonna when when this last time it happened that the top two tastes ago same stores up straight-sets both them. GWA's again win this. I think there's too much there's no pressure on. GWA's at the moment all the pressure I think is on Brisbane harm ground the joints rockin finished all I got everything in the in the back pocket ready to go and I don't know if they're going to be able to Rawes after what happened last week and J W as the bane the flight falls lot more experience if doing something more than what and I reckon that model a win by surprise if that is quite close for wall and then could have a beautiful blonde at the end or wouldn't be surprised I don I. I don't think we always saying his first trip to Oregon the Y. That they got blown upon by Richmond on the weekend what imprinted confronting Fulda as Playa considering the last four weeks of what they've gone through his finishing sick and then out first and then now a second and then you old the old that all the media and all the spin and to get blown away sorrow fast pretty terrifying because I up by four L. Fogel up and to see what happened after that is not an diabate surprised Mitch Robinson going down just that intimidation factor is going to be a big huddled. I become Yep with you Arthur J. W. S. M. Nada. WanNa say it'd happened. I want to say Brisbane Verses calling the next week I I can't say worth been rebounding emotionally from them now. An ossified the put three times more fighting J. W. S. Than Respond Gotha Yep yeah an emotion name provides only going to Siphon and Brisbane have implied that many game to the J. Dillashaw they haven't done the one applied one and that was in round twenty Kariya against Richmond which was was a belt of a game and then I just got taken while you're on the Rhine again Taiwan. It's an exciting volunteers pursue twists and turns it this way I think this is GonNa say more about the loses Lena's especially by teams garden already option. I'm sorry questions you Christians form you in a couple of things Balmy further met me more framed and Lissome Chinois what what's gone three mom right now I can. I I question Brodie Grundy is what is he worth to Adelaide old. You pay to get someone like Birdie. Tehrani Tier Club near you know what skews that entire conversation was that Bryce Gibbs at allied gave up two who first round draft peaks bribes. What do you think allied would be willing to give up for for Brodie Grundy? You'd want three. was that allied. It's not GonNa Happen You'd want. I rams easy easy because he had a contract correct. He was free agent so that don't really have to give him anything but they'll get compensation. So if I were to get compensation that would be in India. I E B first round draft. Pick a comfortably comfortably well. What would you pay for him? If you're if you're Atalaya take all of the stuff away from her. What would you pay a sum unlike full some Law Keam Oregon Days Speights Waltham that very that money so I'll give you a mill on have to do it sees all the trigger for seventh a mill at six? You got to also understand. This guy isn't just a footballer Easel someone that you can buy S- a lot of marketing around his Walter boy twenty-three necklacing you. You'd have to give him a mill- as much as one point. Two Liga have a favorite of money lifting the salary cap because losing their fourteen players apparently the she yeah I think one point I think one point two million is out of the round because that's just like I fell clubs have more money than I do have an issue with I long contract at that much. If you're putting anything I've a mill and up. I think you should cap tap a four year. Deal maximum as big of a risk look a Sydney now. They're looking another threes raise on a million dollars but also gonNA look over ten. Autumn bodies brought a lot more money than what he's getting paid. People go through the grant go through the turnstiles watching blight vivid. They've got they've got. They've got some Sun. Get nothing for the next next g gee them from a movie it. There's still there's still might money offing while Siberia the the. NFL SALARY CAP is twelve point four million the does role every a little bit every side. That's what the salary cap is right at the moment so you're saying that he's GonNa take ten percent of the salary cap grungy yet heard on saying it's not unfathomable with the way that Playa Deals Entebbe Rod seals awful works that getting crawling of a two million that but even from that perspective that's a lot of coin toss. Could you invest in Adelaide for that sort of money. I was blown moat. No one is no one so you have to put your money in some way you do it. Give players what they worth like what as seriously stuffed up day list the last thing that might have grand final three. He's got to he's guy but the handed out longtime contracts applies it never like Sam Jacobs of five obviates. The big sources been good for them. I am it finally. The one that I missed up one was Jenkins again four years at seven hundred that was that's Yup Techs John now that you're at attacks saying another big contract. That's that's the way it rolls as as you go to spend the money and that's the the biggest Fuga with what I fell dury's at you have to Spain Ninety five ninety two percent of the celery kept. You have to spend it so that's what clubs go at at the bottom of the ladder an more clubs. If your club honor for Wall I had to Pi- these money diplomas his supplies who would have been getting. Maybe five hundred grain will get an sevens. I`ts at edibles because they had to give the money to someone then when they start getting better and you wanNA bring plays in. You got no room to move because you can't bank any of that money. It's yeah it's bullshit. It should be you pay what I deserve not because they I fell sits is it. It's not smart. Business AESOP's stops club some having a washes lock North Melbourne of had for the last. You think he's got an old. That's that's another story for another day are on what questioning let's go. delong. Don Is is is Adam as a club. I'll be going to see them bottom completely at next gene gene and I'll throw this at you. Gary Ablett Junior Harry Taylor Joel saw. Would Tom Hawkins those full. WHOA applies a now thirty one from thirty one years old up to thirty five sorry but if you next year isn't guests thirty six thirty six next year Yup a guy thirty four next year I will be thirty two and Tom Hawkins? We thirty two choirs injuries that they got one other piece of the puzzle is that Tom Kelly Tim Kelly Itim outside. He's going to show of Maine and Dunkin. Zoltan now is as as now gone out I have to bottom out so Jon Kanobi coney non next g going through. ICL Sadness as again after Cornell I have to question is he's done done and about tone so Chris got. The rotman delayed them through Arabia are they. They someone that's another compensation for another day. I'll go is questions pips on our He's he's a thing we've crew Chris Scott on the fraud I not under stained the law of me why he would pull Coletta. Rochman should then give virtually the number one big made in the league free reign which then also I made made that someone had been playing in the back lawn only and been dominating which the buck with US had to go apply rock that may other people to it was almost that that one decision you had the butterfly effect on the rest of the team and is that smart coaching because if you watch that game you wouldn't have nine it was beckoning rain. Oh let fo- fraud I was poring fraud. I the ground the MCG drains so quickly yet Berlin support any plan was almost like Brad Scott had to justify making a change in it. Sometimes breads approaches bread scope. I just think that I think they I think they really need to have a look on. I think you'll gone away 'cause he. He's still apprenticeship coach but they they gonNA lose a lot of playas Nikki. Thank you can't bring that much experiencing one year regardless of have a free agency agency JETRO. You'RE NOT GONNA be out bringing Italy Yep and my concern is the fact that they're the youngest player in the list is Jordan clock who's had Aydin in games. He's adding these old. Then the next player who's had an games is the youngest player Charlie Constable had seven games by found. He's twenty years old. It's actually be twenty. One starting with I gained what about Roy is great grace. He's he's an ex stop so played what he played played twelve to eighteen Gandhiji d- grandma's has played twenty games and turtle. He's twenty years old as well. This is a bit of a at at the bottom of the list is actually Eugene and some clouds developing safe at Automo- is of a nine year on fine Bennelong got a law applies in that mid to low thirties and then a lot of plaza twenty nine so rod on that Qasim yielding you need to have that bottom main even if I don't games into them in the same as you need to have that that knicks crop coming through to keep that balance and I just don't have that and so eventually what's going to happen eases that when the old get old knife old ally obviously people step up you don't have anything in reserve coming up underneath when uh when you go in and see when you go ahead and pick people what Gary Rowan who could have hit water if he fell out of a button fraud. I want yeah once again. He's played football through the got to the finals Tommy. She's not reliable. They've got they've got six. Six seven plays on the list who on Sanyo's haven't played a senior game yet and then probably another foul six apply less than ten games on that list the GONNA lose a lot of experience will stop correct and you can't you can't make that five and is by many clubs who have gone ahead and got rid of the experience and a cost cost the more in the long g need to have that experience at the club. Yes I al- lift would not be good at all have to have to keep a couple of them. He he's another one right so he's another one yep. So there's a guy he plays with security that they've got their oil home. Yes whose does and WHO's twenty nine entering him or a four year contract to go Danny Eh correct so another example of getting an old old handing Yep. It's it's just putting the finger you're in the dock all figured it out yet. It's even the dog finger in the dog to stop the lake yeah but that's not going to stop the leak you we need to either thing you put into the halt. Stop the lakes. That dot is a completely different podcasts in a monograph wrong. I'm not going to rebuild the whole dame mike some major improvements or you've you're GonNa let him I be you have to might be relieve a little pressure and let Logan the water and why in a thing that's what they're gonNA have to. I don't think they can get rid of them all but they're gonNA have to make a call on. I think that I have Golan Ablett I would also say tyler offer show Heritage Hawkins he plays full forward so it's not going to be taxing on his body yeah but if he's not if he got into the game and he only has to run up and down he doesn't have to run the whole plays a GM hba stadium is not the biggest grant at the on I but when he gets to the big brands is exposed but they've got nobody else and that's the truth there but no no one else they've got. They've got Ray Stanley or they've got blitz. How's it going? There got some big man I just I know what to do with two two men the radical Shiah while he John He'd be Bob Innate you need to have you need have gawky done what we we started out as not about the first I hold Cole is the second and the third when we had Bergen and then we had people you get China walk away to Minora. Rit Nelson etc weighing rock when you when you don't have that that Big Mon star of the fullback who would usually take it just goes down and so the the third string becomes was a second and slow out of the schools. We've seen it happen every GONNA. KP MONTHS-OLD I get somebody in an auto new. They're upcoming upcoming forwards up while they've got raw neighborhood Abbas Rochman but could could they try and he's only had fog and one game in the is twenty one game no you can't you can't try. You can't try and people folds. I'm sorry can't you're either photo you know can trying to trying to be back then because you just follow the ball and fully humane. It's a lot easier but to get creative. You need to have that you need that that instinct as a forward to people into forwards never never it's worth let me gets an happened not doesn't work that well doesn't look that well and you can't so they're gonNA have to look out and find a gun. Rachman a gone for a Ben King would be a perfect example. Get Him from getting from Queensland sons get. He mean the forward. It's an option name YEP YEP in options but they just a role must be proud to make those decisions Wally Boza why what about the cook. Tim mm-hmm wanted to six doesn't matter but he's John Kennedy Plaza the fields. I think they're going through the pine. One three flags and goodness knows how many easily you can suck it up for all the right what's up. I think that was interesting hips that at the moment question for you okay Rim again around the same frost as being we see getting label by Melvin from what I understand probably why don't join a whole thinking about going Hoeffel he was going to hold on and you had to swap apply Fahim full. Oh ooh that's a great question. Hopefully we're not going to be dropped peaks but we'll do a swap throwing some ability the fluff if I was looking at as always looking at that I would be wanting. I probably wanting something in the forward line from the whole Zevallos soda thing and I got my I am one. It could be some potential chime find someone he AH I. I am going to give you a number. Are you looking at a you think. Give me a number. Give me before not nothing makes Louis Net twenties old hundred ninety eight centimeters forward non intrigue. I'll take that I'll take that on all dog meeting that what about what about Johnston that's the one he's the one I'll be looking at. How old a twenty eight twenty nine twenty eight next year so he's you still got me a good way to full plank lies as exactly what we need to go giga and if we did that's what the Link Frost is twenty? The problem is now the problem is you're not GonNa get someone like Ah Jack Gunston because you've already showing a hand to hold on what you think. Frost is worth women automating yet you've him to to sixteen and a two year. Deal wasn't as law not that Lar- Al-Kamel Melbourne. It was not gonNA tonky Khaki so he hasn't got that influenced good few laws. He was probably a bit backman disguised. You guys to shout how Badoit what's happened at. Why could not even R. rated? Why doesn't make any sense yeah? I'll just saw that if if I want to do a bit of a deal waking work something out of it then you never know I'd love to go to clock. I will turn him into again while our ECHINA- GonNa son's like getting getting them to behind Straits thinking cosmo have the throw in a couple of Israel does Oslo off. It's a it's a it's an interesting one isn't it when he got home and what's he worth because when he when he's on his own quick the lockdown defender can play on tolls came plans moles can't kick don't you guys are offering four bucks. It's not much is actually it's not much on out montage much sheets me too because I give money to people at the Wagner's in the Neil woolens and these guys who didn't do anything this year at all and they came in is one symbolism about this guy who's like I it'll probably be inevitably fall based fall based Fahd in the best and fairest which is Sung. That's that's got to be a shock and half. It's got to be a shock in half that it'd be when you had that many injuries this can happen. I listened one loss before we wrap up. These bad boyd immature turn couple things I had to dig down is part of our show nuts. It's not was the Tyler Harris Statute as he says coast coast bit of controversy and all to hear your thoughts on it because it can completely out of the blue that she was getting stature sword. I went shit. I K- what did you think what are your. What's your you have an opinion on it and it's not the wild viewer is it's not a statue in the same way that the Nikki Wind Ma or the Kevin Bartlett Oh Yeh Ted whitten no of ones when you walked and GM sage as not a statue in the same why wii of that is not as not in the science of bills? I went bad. It's not revealed in the same way I think most Dan's for a stance we need to come a consensual women's football is not going to be placed in the same name areas as those particular statute not because the ones that MCG represent people who have had a significant contribution at the MC Jay and that's what's not just football or cricket related as well to Shirley Strickland up there as well the big hit billy come up on account but that sort of stuff as well I think at sixty pips the fact that the social media thing yes and the and the reaction to the social media landscape at palm and what what does about not necessarily highlighting that title harasses is you know the the Golden Statue of IFAW so I'm really care that much thing and I think that's where rested with it or not. I also do I what else plex because there's probably four or five other women who are more deserving of achieve what lived out. Ob now in women's football for bowl but I don't think that it was made to be that talk of Rome Statute. I don't know why that's what also was almost like. Why what does it represent and I think that's the moment but but it doesn't doesn't matter? What do you think in twenty chained fifteen years Tom when you look at that Guy Akai his wasn't that it was let it even in a was that even in I I fell w dine was a preseason game that fight I was hiking? None other guy wasn't actually in the guy off prisoners and the discussion but it doesn't to me doesn't represent anything at the moment but it's it doesn't represent anything Jimmy so the we meyer on the chest was lot hauled on looking pointing at the scheme that that's you see that you can see what it is if he walked up and go oh who's this. What was this for this person to bill at home? Yeah Yeah doesn't to me doesn't in have any singing it beyond reason watch what significance is because of all the furor that came out of it when the when image I got released is that image never got the whole furor old hall wasn't backlash the whole man of scrutiny dot and the bite that immediate got that wouldn't based at you so then of the people who got angry about the statue the ones the blind for the statue bank created once again all would like to know what does it encompass because Moi's statute regardless of who it is has to represent something and the image itself has to represent something could you silos you knotted I you not to pace across the media and the NFL to stamp out online trolling and native social commentary Ni- because it's still happening it's happened and about the statute but we'll united against some of the grossness that was dotted certainly a get that wholeheartedly wholeheartedly that there's not there's no place for that whatsoever nine but it was that what could stand for a in yours it could would but I think the photo is an electronic image ninth the just not once again a dark Norway and pets always with you always with you honestly in the same shoe thinking this as an instructor to Aaron Phillips Two and two women football because let's advised misapply tires twenty three games and she not spectacularly wow nine ply other than the emissions particularly fantastic I fi- women's flyer and there are probably women's football vein cloudy Malbongwe for that twenty to thirty years is title guy for nine that haven't been mentioned bots so he is a thing that you know the the woman from the wisdom oodles. y'All think I've ever exactly yeah that's who all would almost have a statue of will that was she was the one who got a fixed mission diamond thousand thirteen that it but she but that that that to me represents mole then these honestly what gets even twenty-four formula methods Dr Pepper I was in yours in your execture is probably the start of the day when that came out in our thought about it and thought it's it's. It's it's expected to be in the same lot yeah on a but the the thing is like once again. If I die put stipe put a name on it Yep Yup they not done thinking yeah that's interesting I agree and the other thing that will bring up is is that that that kick that she did you can go back a couple seasons early early before the NFL W stoddard when when she was plying game Melbourne and the Melbourne the dog used to have the Games is an image of her doing the exact signed assigned theme Siamese each year sign yeah yep so it's not it's not that all conic Adana on. I think it's once again. He's down the track. If you look at that Guy what does that represent excuse me a shot of exoplanet nodded has not football or you not of the community against trump. It's got to be very difficult to explain. What does that mean but if I look at Nikki we ma pointed he stomach? What does that represent while this guy wasn't was an aboriginal calorie skiing at Victoria remain it was an all moment and it's made a difference for moving forward this August white and say only when we when we when we still rolling at this podcast in another forty five years or by eighties and you'll be in you then we can get back and say now what we were back in two thousand and Andre could be the biggest thing ever Chapo one last thing? I have to get trades at the moment because you know what I was thinking that we headed in the show notes that'd be too quick about the trades in that but worth it while cyber liven up because nothing's locked in talk not we'll just told last thing just to let you you might. I WANNA sit down for this. One listeners on Johnny needs to sit down for this one because it's quite can be quite tough to he and the last week we ran a poll on the lice out sought judo is a conversation between carrot cake and Apple Strudel. You know we saw a poll disable. Which one is which one way I'll the male loyal listeners prefer well all? I am happy to tell you that I can't get the results up because my fines crashed Kim a strong feeling I the bait the carrot cake am I right. Unfortunately I think it was only my wife and I have voted for the carrot cake fights sticky pudding there was actually it was a lot of sticky pudding lava Xanthi but the strudel had to take it over the characteristic siree just guys to Shire the liar on adults on you. What was what was it? What was it just gives? The percentage is not the number. Let's make it sound better than it Wilson. I can't I eighteen percent of the votes dining. Gut Eighty to bow out. I've everybody voted lobbyist room. You are listening. That's that's exciting. once again get on the facebook page. Look look don't be afraid to ask comment by the way Malloy interview with a team a potential I I fell primitive chip star have more information on that in this way. 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195. Adam Gopnik (essayist)  the rhinoceros of liberalism vs. the unicorns of everything else

Think Again

59:39 min | 1 year ago

195. Adam Gopnik (essayist) the rhinoceros of liberalism vs. the unicorns of everything else

"This episode is brought to by big think edge. If you're running an organization of any size, big ideas, can be the difference between success and going out of business decision making leadership. Whatever your company needs to learn. Big edge brings you video lessons and learning tools from some of the smartest most experienced teachers on the planet. Visit big think edge dot com slash video gallery to get a glimpse of how big ideas can transform your business. That's big think edge dot com slash video gallery. Hi there. I'm Jason got Senator listening to think, again, a big thing podcast. If I had to choose one word to capture this moment in American and maybe world history patients, wouldn't be it from every direction, everything demands our urgent attention. Everything is ticking time bomb or one that's just exploded. And we're all the poorly trained, volunteer ambulance squad. I don't mean to dismiss the challenges we face climate change families being ripped apart while seeking asylum. A school shooting every other week just to name a few. These are all very real very urgent indeed. I'm not advocating stoic indifference, but in fight or flight mode. We have a tendency to make drastic either or decisions we forget, as my guest today would have it how to count to two. He's New Yorker writer. Adam gopnik, and he's the author of the new book, a thousand small sanitize, the moral adventure of liberalism, it's a surprising and surprisingly necessary book at this cultural moment, and it's willing to look awkward and uncouth in the eyes of GOP Nick's teenage daughter and her generation by defending good. Old-fashioned pluralistic, humanistic liberal. Mm-hmm. Liberalism has got Nick puts it is more of a rhinoceros than a unicorn, a creature of evolutionary compromise. That's not always pretty to look at. But put us out on it, he argues and it gets you more or less where you need to go, welcome to think again at it's pleasure to be here. Jason, so the book is written to a certain extent, as an address to your daughter letter to my daughter, or Leonard, your daughter via in response to her response to the election of twenty it'd be it began. And it wasn't. It's not a rhetorical Gamba that actually began on the night of the two thousand sixteen election when she was completely traumatized, by the result by Donald Trump being elected, as I think, so many young women and young men to particularly young women of her generation work because it's such an assault on everything that they had been raised to believe was possible and true. And as I say it wasn't that she was shocked that the other party had won, because nor would I have been sympathetic of that had been her issue. It was that the whole set of values in. Which she had been raised to believe seemed not just vulnerable, but in many respects overturn so we went out for a long long, walk that night in, which I put my arm around her, and I tried to reassure about our values and I failed completely to communicate a single relevant idea or offer as single cogent reassurance. So I sort of made a mental memorandum to myself, I am going to write this as a letter to Olympia as she's ready to graduate from high school about why the values that I've been preaching to her whole life, or not, just the values of the family, shop, the things we've inherited but really have significant sorry, enduring will matter in the world you can rely on them to do good work. And the first thing I'd say Jayson is patients is certainly, I think virtual in the world, but it's not really what this book in joins, and it's not for me, liberalism joints. And I don't even think you can you probably can't find the words someplace in the book, but it isn't my prescription because the people I offer to live e as heroes, heroines, particularly weren't particularly patient people. The book begins is, you know. With the greatest liberal thinker. John Stuart mill and his greatest teacher his lover and wife hair, you Taylor, and they were passionate absoluteness about the end of slavery about women's rights, in particular about freedom of speech, freedom of even the most blasphemous kind of speech, so they weren't patient in the sense that they were saying, oh, well, we'll take a little of this a little bit of that. And we'll be happy here in the middle of the road. They were saying, we believe passionately in values that don't exist in the world right now. But we accept that it's in the nature of the world to be a pluralistic place where there's going to be a lot of dispute a lot of contention. A lot of competing views, and we embrace those contradictions. We'll reconcile those difficulties will believe in compromise and contradiction. As sacred words fighting words, Ravin is things to retreat from at risk of committing the cardinal sin of failing to kill my darlings and sort of defending my reading of your bug. I guess what I meant and you correct me if I've missed the point here by patients. Is that it seemed to me that the way you explain liberalism, is that progress? I mean while it can happen quickly, the kind of progress that a lot of people are looking for often happens. Over time, these oh, question about that. This is a book, that's about incremental lissome in that, that it often just takes time, and you have to work at it, and that's why the heroes heroines in the book are 'incrementalist in that way, you know, another one of my favorites is by Rushton, not innate, a lot of people contra with now but he was the great black gay genius who organized the March on Washington and gave a frame for Dr Cain to speak in, and that he accepted that would just take time. It took time to charter all the buses, it took time to make the sandwiches, and it took time to make the revolution. And civil rights, so. Absolutely. This is a book in favor of 'incrementalist them, but it's not a book in favor of centrism. In one of the things I wanted to try and clarify for a Libyan for the readers. Obviously, more important was that liberalism isn't centrism. It isn't a way of sort of taking the acceptable view, you tingle this that, and then you find a wishy washy middle. It's a movement and historical movement for radical change by humane. Measures. And that's what makes liberalism limply so among the passionately held values and maybe the central passionately held value of liberalism as you explain. It is compassion. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I for me liberalism, liberal humanism in the sense that I'm trying to defend in the book begins, not with the famous seventeenth century, philosophers, like walk in March. Skew, the guys who thought about constitutions begins with Montaigne the great renaissance. I SA so I have a I have a class interest in promoting his cause, but I, he was the first one to say, look, we are broken. We are born broken where born fail lable. We are born double everything we believe we believe the opposite of, and that's the scent central human condition, and we have to build our values out of the acceptance of our absolute foul business. And that for me is we're real liberalism begins begins to the understanding that there is no perfect world. There is no perfect person. There is no utopia to achieve that. We have to make our politics the way we. Make our interactions out of compassion for each other's failures rather than out of constantly pressing forward to unreal. Perfection. It seems like a lot of the discourse that happens now is around a passionate desire to point out hypocrisy wherever it might be, and it seems like fallible ISM as a guiding star is essentially without using the word hypocrisy admitting that we are all hypocrites in that sense. Jason instance, which I don't think I included in the book, but I did a long essay about Frederick, Douglass, right? This past summer, and one of the things that comes up whenever you're writing about. I think the greatest American Frederick Douglass is he wasn't great on women's issues on, on women's right to vote women's suffrage in the nineteenth century. Right. Because he felt that the urgency of the abolitionist fight was so overwhelming that from his point of view to waste time worrying about whether white women could vote was very secondary. Boy that seems wrong to us now. And it it's like a failure of compassion empathy. Theon Douglas's part. But what I said about that is that we have to be compassionate about other people's failures of that kind not out of charity for them, but charity for ourselves because the future will look back and see in us in ways, we can't even begin to imagine now, all of our failures of empathy and compassion, and understanding, and that's built into the nature of human existence and exactly therefore the business of pointing out other people's Apocrypha sees though, valuable in itself, only can be done with the understanding that we are guilty of similar Apocrypha ourselves, which were not yet, even capable of, of recognized. One wonders like which of us would not be cancelled if someone took a close enough, microscope. Yeah. And we, we live in that class house. We make our lives within those last houses. And so then the question becomes how do we all coexist within a house, made a glass, walls, and one answer is respectfully right because we don't want to let the wind start blowing in. So that's what pluralism means. But it doesn't mean and forgive me if I seem pugnacious on this. It's so central say it doesn't mean sort of shrugging in an equitable way and saying, oh, just wait to deal with climate change or way to deal with equal opportunity for women awake to deal with the hundred pressing and urgent issues. It just means press absolutely Olivia or L. Right. Right. Right. But do it with the understanding that pluralism means recognising that other people have eagles as large as your own convictions every bit as passionate as your own which are not identical to your own. I saw an article in the in the times, I believe yesterday. I'm sure you saw it about Woody Allen about how he went around shopping, his autobiography to various. No, I didn't see this actually I don't. I don't read the. Really, you don't. You don't read the New York Times, I read it sporadically but I tried. I tried to sue air myself like one of the most New York people I've ever met him kind of suppressed. Yes. No, it's, it's my perversion all have to have a pet perversion, but, you know that he apparently has gone around shopping, autobiography various publishers, and many of them have refused to on business principles. It's toxic at this moment, whatever, but I think about that in the context of absolutism, I think that's when you consider what we Allen has invented contributed. And even if you were to imagine, and I don't I don't share those that view of. But even if you would imagine the worst the notion that we should censor the witness of the testimony of buddy, who has seen who has lived a significant life boy that isn't the way you know, the great memoirs and confessions of, of all time from Saint Augustine through right shed to bring on, including Casanova and Frederick Douglass are. As often tales of failures of setbacks Boswell is probably the greatest diarist of all time, and all he does is recount his misdeeds. So I think that particular kind of censorship of the full humanity of our experience is extremely dangerous and us. Ed, one more thing. It's, you know, the famous saying of Goya's right, the sleep of reason, begets monsters. Right, the more you repress the worst it gets. And there's obviously some relationship between those of us here on the progressive side of things, and our appetite for moralism and the, the unreasonable outright response to that those two things go hand in hand. Sure. Sure that makes perfect sense. I'm wondering since you wrote the book since you sat down and took the time to try to give a fuller explanation than you were able to give to alluvia in the moment. How has that conversation unfolded the feeling through to her? If the parents of joke and the paradox, this is, she's moved well, to my right in the succeeding, two years, really, I think she I don't know if she would go all the way to self identify as conservative, but she certainly has moved to my right in as much as she's become increasingly impatient. And she can speak for myself and assure that you're getting for with the pieties of the academic left and the conventional left and impatient. With the obsession with circumspect courtesies of everyday life against the larger political picture. What some people leave. Oh, yes. And I don't ever want to use that phrase, because I'm so from I remember when it first appeared, it was always meant ironically, it was meant by liberals, self critiquing make mocking themselves saying, oh, that's not politically correct. It was never a serious term used. Seriously? But yes, I think I remember on the day that morning after the election, I hadn't slept all night. And we went to my son's college. Actually, in the first thing he said, was well, at least pronouns are over. Meaning that confronted with a true authoritarian challenge to liberal democratic values. We won't have time to focus on the minutiae of intimate address on pronouns, the right, pronoun, right, right? And on fact, the opposite. I'm afraid has has happened. We have more pronouns now than ever, and we more constrained, about speech and less able as a consequence to build. I fear sometimes effective coalitions, which is what democratic politics are all about. It's about saying to someone with whom you don't agree about one hundred things but you do agree about the one essential thing. Protecting liberal institutions. Let's say comes harder to build those coalitions, because we're so obsessed with the minute courtesies of, of speech and behavior. Yeah, I mean, I sometimes think if I'm not mistaken your book, does make this point that a lot of the a lot of the difficulties in the atomization of society have to do with the fact that people just don't spend too much time to close together. Anymore that basically where there aren't community spaces. You talk about social capital. Exactly, exactly. That's very important theme in the book in. Yes. And thank you for, for spotting it one of the truths about liberalism. Is that though, we're always accused of being status who reference everything the government, the truth is the ground? The foundation of, of liberalism is in the community enterprise, in what Frederick homestead, the great of central park, called commonplace civilization, all the ways people come together outside a government, but also outside clan connections outside family connections, and have to learn to live together, whether it's softball team or in a volunteer fire department or glee club or fireworks group, these were all things that olmstead pointed out. That's how democracies made. And that's not just pious, liberal blather all of the great studies made by Robert Putnam who I also reference in the book a lot great sociologist about where democracy takes. Hold says the precondition is the people are already. Accustomed to dealing with other people who don't belong to their clan who are not in any sense, blood relations, but whom they managed to knock along, if you have those social institutions social capital in place. Right. They can be coffee houses in eighteenth, century, France or they can be softball teams in nineteenth century America. I guess they were still playing baseball exclusively. Then you have a shot at having democratic values. If you don't have those you don't and it doesn't matter how good you constitution is, if you don't have commonplace civilization, in place, already means a willingness to tolerate a certain amount of discomfort, which we don't like discomfort, and we're more willing to tolerate it when our lives, and our institutions are structured in such a way that we have no choice but to tolerate it. And so one wonders given the opportunity to retreat into our little atomised bubbles, like what would actually force us together again? Well, you know, the truth is democratic politics to force us together. Again, I know that I have the. Arable dad sin of referencing my kids experiences central to all evidence and I confess to that. And I apologize for it, but it was very interesting. My son, Luke, who's doing graduate school in philosophy abstract thinker. Unlike his sister was extremely active and practical went to work on the max rose campaign in Staten Island. Okay. I don't know if you followed max roses campaign. Well, this is it's really interesting because AOL see in bless her, and we love, her ran her campaign in deep blue district in Brooklyn, where basically any demo district is basically any democrat who showed up would win max rose was running as a democrat liberal Democrat in Staten Island, where not only no democrat had won, but basically no democrat could show up, but I'm being lynched for a very long time. And they ran and extremely effective campaign, which they had to take max rose, who was a war veteran and unquestionably a patriot who had to say that he opposed Nancy Pelosi right? It was in favor of national health care and was in. Favor of all of the progressive agenda and they had to forge a way of speaking. I mean, literally knock on a door to someone who's got four American flags flying outside their house. And explain why max rose was a better choice for your life than the Republican candidate and they won. They turned to forty point deficit around. They won by five points. That's where coexistence that's where pluralism that's where the rubber meets the road. That's really interesting because you have this wonderful sentence in your book where you try to sum up liberalism, and you point out that it's a big clumsy awkward sentence. Ultimately, we're sentenced I've ever written to deliberately so. Yeah. And, you know, so the idea of a successful elevator pitch as it were for liberalism. I wonder how did they get that across? It seems like explaining the value of messy 'incrementalist progress is not an easy sell. Well, I don't think you can sell it as an idea. But you can demonstrate it as a temperament. And again, I'm simply I'm putting my, my son, Luke here, the first thing you do is you listen, you make it plain that though I looked like a millennial kid. I'm in fact here to ask you what you think about the world is it is not to lecture you. They were always instructed to be honest. They say I'm here, not for max rose liberal Democrat for max rose war veteran veteran points of contact points of contact because once you say that the door opens a little bit wider, the guy you're representing is an alien to me is actually done something that I respect and then I can admire its like mayor Pete has that same foundational appeal. And I say in the book to Jason, and I think it's important that one of the ways in which liberalism has had a terrible deficit in the last twenty thirty years as we don't talk, patriotism, very well. Yes, I'm glad you got about. I want we don't have a good. We neither have very good account of it so to speak, theoretically. But we also don't talk at practically very well because and I've written about this as well. And I tried to write about it and the book page. Kriat. Som. It's like one of those tiny subatomic particles, which then breaks, down instantaneously, and some other sub atomic particle patriotism, has a very short half life, and it turns into nationalism very rapidly. And we live in an era of such returning nationalism of the ugliest imaginable, kind in this country should certainly, but also in Britain throughout all of Europe and Russia, obviously, and we know how toxic nationalism can be, we know how has phobic, and racist, it can be. So we're understandably reluctant to touch the little particle of patriotism, because we're fear that it's going to break down to nationalism to that. If I may, I would add that our military history, over the last decades, doesn't align very well with humanistic, compassion based, no use it doesn't. You don't let funny thing about that, and it's something I discussed the great length in the book. I discussed it a bit. Is that? I remember when nine eleven was supposed to be the thing that was going, alter everything, and everything was aligned around, though. Those fights and that seems to have vanished from our fundamental understanding and appropriately. So rightly so incident it wasn't a wave nonetheless, I think that that's true that we have a million reasons why we should be suspicious of patriotism. But if we don't have an account of it, you can't knock on that door in Staten Island, rife, and speak to that to the man with the in the family with four American flags because like it or not that appetite for identity that appetite to feel that my place is special, and I have a place in my place. That's as far as we can tell. It's an internal human appetite and we can either we have to manage it because we're not gonna master. We're not gonna make it go away. Right. And that's one place in say, at the end of the book where I think we as liberals progressives have to do much better. But so do you think that this is a matter of is this, a matter of actually reclaiming a real kind of patriotism, or that it's act or that's about talking to people who are patriot? I had Richard Dawkins on the shoulder longtime ago and he was talking about, you know, he was arguing that we ought to evolve at some point beyond nationalism. That is, you know, that for the sake of the world, it really doesn't make sense to be like raw my country. Totally, I, of course, I feel the way I'm. Rootless cosmopolitan. That was the guy that both the Soviets and the Nazis. Multi-language saying June. The first thing we have to do is we have to make the distinction for ourselves because I'm enough of an intellectual that getting the ideas, right? Really matters between patriotism and nationalism between a profound passionate love of place, which I think we all feel I feel it for New York City. I sure I hate leaving New York City. I just I never nothing seems quite real. And nationalism, which means that sense of victimization, that we have been unfairly treated. It's what we witness, every day from President Trump right to use that expression even but we've been unfairly treated. We've been persecuted we have to now vindicate ourselves. We are the victims, and we have a right to our revenge. That's what nationalism shows all about. And it's the opposite of patriotism. It's not it's not remotely the same thing. So we I have to clear that I think in our own minds. And then when we present ourselves in our program, we have to do it in a way, that's credibly patriotic that says to the veteran on Staten Island, listen the sacrifices you've made in the commitments and the allegiances you have are going to be much better served. If you and your kids never have to worry about going bankrupt, because you have a heart attack. They're going to be much better served if we have a shared national service are going to be much better. Shared if we have a higher. Inheritance tax? So the kid who's lucky enough to have been born wealthy doesn't have overwhelming advantage? Over your kids who have been merely born, the kids of serviceman or servicewoman. So we can make if we articulate to ourselves, the power of patriotism, distinguish it from nationalism. I think we can in very practical, and specific ways make that case Staten Island or in Indiana or, and all the other places where if we're going to rescue ourselves from this emergency, and I think we're living in the midst of an unprecedented, national emergency, we're going to have to do it by knocking on those doors and we're not gonna knock on those doors. Successfully simply by repeating what we know in feel already. We're going to have to embrace pluralism as a principal. Yeah. And in the context of pluralism and liberalism patriotism, as opposed to nationalism is essentially just self respect and the ability to respect others to say, okay. Ron, my country I love my country, but that doesn't necessarily smuggle in hierarchy that doesn't have to mean your country is school. That's I mean, it's a simple thing opposite of, let's go to Ronnie, and the right response to nine eleven and I think it was all New York is what my God. I love this place. I hate seeing it attack to see despoiled. And in that way, catches me the core of my being to see. And that's how I think we all felt on that day and let us protect this place and its values. And let's vindicate the values of all those people who were killed simply trying to go to work from every imaginable background, not. Let's go. Let's go. Make a war of inform has nothing to do nothing. That's the difference, I think between the patriotic response and the nationalist response. Yeah. I mean, where things get squirmy for me is in the intersection -ality conversation, and you talk a little bit about this as well, because I am, in many ways, sympathetic to people's right to identify how they feel they want to identify. I'm sympathetic to traumas people may have experienced. Inste- as a result of the color that they were born or the gender identification that they, they have, and I feel that those are things that are worth protecting and you do I think you. Yeah, I hope my account, one of the things that I wanted to do in this book was to offer as sympathetic a very sympathetic accounts of the people who don't agree with me or might be seen as tag. And I hope I offer a very sympathetic account of intersection -ality as a program and his desire. It's one of the things I'm proudest of Jason that when the Anita hill hearings happened back when for you were born in ninety one. The first thing mount before before before you were doing before I was sentient. I wrote a piece for the New York. I wrote the editorial page for the New Yorker that week saying this is a case in which everything that my sisters, I five sisters have been telling me my whole life. I suddenly realize as profoundly true in ways, I could never understand before that a woman's life is less important than a man's work. Women are sterile can't be trusted on and on. We could go down down listening. So I'm completely sympathetic with that account and beyond that, that Anita hill, speaking as a black woman, not simply. As a woman, but with a more complicated, intersectional identity, I think that those things are positive and terrific in their ways of expanding. The range of our understanding where I differ, and I think we're liberals differ from leftists. Frankly, about this is that I accept that we will all have multiple identities in a lifetime, we speak for many different voices for many different identities to try to essentially is anybody's identity. Right. As you speak, only from white privilege, certainly true too. And we can't pretend otherwise we also speak from a Jewish background, we speak from the particular background. We have I'm in Canadian who came to new, right? And a large part of my identity is Canadian is coming from place, where national health insurances and on question acquisition, where the habits of compromise are enshrined rather than, than made light of. So I think that we all naturally speak from the identity we have. But I also think it's equally important that we can all speak to whomever. We want, and that's a fundamental liberal value. And that ultimately the power and truth and importance of our words doesn't depend on their origin. It depends on their power. It depends on their truth. It becomes a complicated conversation though, precisely because if we are talking about very real undeniable effects of power structures in, in a country, and if people are trying to, you know, if we're trying to have a kind of national self reckoning about these things, and to say, okay, to what extent is there a thing called white privilege, which, by the way, we'll get back to because I like what you have to say about privilege. But to what extent is this, a thing, how does it affect other people? I mean, these are these are I think conversations that need to be had to be hit. You know, I don't if I'm remembering on, honestly, can't remember, if I use this image in the book, I think I may have done. But at one point when I was talking to alleviate said, you know, you go to the Disney hall of presidents and everybody in the hall of presidents is a white guy amid. Aged white guy, except for one, then you have the, that's not an accident, bro. Just kind of workout nor was it just, you know. Well, those were the most talented, people, we had we looked at everybody, but it was the middle age white-tie deserve to be the boss. So obviously anybody with Alice of sense or an eye in their head can see that, that exists. Are those deep seated prejudices and I in quotes here, privileges exists, which is seems like a very like it's a very subtle line, right? From there to then the conversation. That's like essentially in the context of say this political conversation or whatever it might be anything you might have to say must be evaluated in those terms, it's very, very subtle, as you said, correctly. And it's one of the themes of the book, grownup people can count it to him. Right. If we can no more than one thing about a social phenomenon if we don't know, more than one thing about it, and then we don't know, right social phenomenon. So we can say, take the lesson of the Disney hall. The presidents and, and incorporated into your understanding of history of this country and the nature of whatever you wanna call it white supremacy. So at the same time, and this is where I try to talk about this question at the same time we know that almost every radical progressive idea that has helped humanity along as usually come from someone in a position of privilege anarchism comes from prince Kropotkin, right? An risk that comes in bit Kunin. Those were ideas that came from surprising places, but that had enormous effects in part, they had to come from. Surprisingly privileged places. I don't like that term. But let's use it for a moment because those were the people who had the, the education and leisure to think hard about what the world could be right. So we can do both things at once we can recognize all of us need to recognize the background that gives us upper -tunities, and so on. And we can say that nobody's speech can be judged, simply in terms of their background or their origin. It's one of the fundamental things. About the scientists. And here I can I'll be a little bit evangelical, the great revolution that we call the scientific revolution can be simply defined instead of arguing from authorities saying who said that. And if you tell me who said that I'll know it's true. Right. We say Galileo said, I don't care if dot will said it, I'll show it. And if I show it to you, you'll know it's true from the evidence. That's a fundamental revolution in rationality. Right. We always have to keep that revolution. And rationality at the forefront of our consciousness. I really like what you have to say about privilege, which is specifically that the thing that we often call privilege or when we use the word privilege, where often referring to rights and experiences that we ought to want for everybody. And I think, you know, the other side of that, or another dimension of that is that when we started attacking privilege, we can end up making enemies of things like education, as they did say in Maoist, China and start turning tearing down universities and burning books exa-. You've summarize it. But that's exactly I'll now just echo. That's exactly it. Right. I think that what we often call privilege that. And it's certainly true that a white kid walking into Bodega or trying to Hal, a taxi has advantages over a black who can dispute that or in, in the more extreme cases being stopped by a cop, but the point should be that everybody is exactly the what we're describing is the privilege of the white kid is the normal residue of citizenship. That's how people ought to be treated. And one of the things we've seen clearly is kind of equitable treatment has expanded. Right. You know, we don't think about it any much any longer. But one of the reasons why we put Jews in the Irish into the basket of whiteness, because where they once were the victims of that kind of inequity they no longer are our rights, our privileges, if you like have expanded, that's the task of a democratic society is not to recreate the people who have them, but to make sure that everyone is equally included in possession of, of those. Rights of that kind of treatment more broadly, though, the thing that's essential for me in thinking about this. Is that the conversation that turns around question of privilege is always going to be in my view, a destructive, one for progressive minded people because it turns into a series of accusations, and one of the things that's true. Is that though, we can understand the idea in an abstract way? Everybody's personal experience is not one or is very rarely one of privilege, the Trump's inherited their money from their from finagling the taxes from their father. But for most part when you confront people about it, you know, I'll be personal about it. Sure a Livia books written for Livia. My mother Olivia's grandmother was in very poor working class Jewish. Immigrant kid who got a scholarship to Penn wasn't allowed to study math because women weren't allowed to study math in the nineteen fifties. So she became a believe in, I the first woman ever to get a PHD informal logic at Penn and went on to become a well-known scientist. That time to that doesn't sound to me. And that's the, the platform in which I attain my education in which Livia infects gutters. That doesn't sound too. The people involved in it like privilege. It sounds like purpose. It sounds like anonymous purposefulness working in the world. And I don't think that's a Aborignes story. It's the way many people would narrate, and I would say that, that's why when people get sort of defensive about pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, and say, look, you know, it's hard work, you know, that got us here kind of thing that's understandable. Because that is their experience. What they might be missing is the broader kind of its historical context. And that's what that's counting to, to. You can can recognize the both things at true that the story of purpose is not a fable or something. Imagine, it's very real for the people who participated in, but it takes place, within a broader umbrella in which people with fair skin have advantages over people with darker skin and all those kinds, we can recognize both things what we can say. I think this is this is the crucial point. Is that in any society? We've actually known any historical society and in any imaginable society. I think they're going to be people with more good fortune, in people with less. Good fortune Shuna. I was reading a good book about quantum Parker. My wife's name is Parker, but they're not related who was the great Comanche leader of the nineteenth century okay was half European actually in half Comanche. And one of the things is striking is the Comanche bands. He's nomadic rating bands had very strong hierarchies of who was more fortunate, who is less determined by your skills warrior in the number of horses. You owned there's no society known to humankind. The doesn't have more people with more or less good for to shore. The question is, what do you do with that? Good fortune do you hoard it or do you share it? And that's the great liberal question. What liberals say is. However, you got your good fortune. You have a responsibility to share it, and it's wrong to hoard it, and we've found very effective ways of getting people to share it. That's been very successful social product project imperfect. Like all the sure and right now, we live in a moment. This far too much warning and not sufficient sharing. But saying to people, you know, you've had enormous, good fortune share your good fortune with the people who are less fortunate. That's on the whole the kind of request that has historically been more or less successful saying to someone you've been unfairly privileged. You don't get to participate in this next social discussion. That's a total failure. That's a total non starter as political premise. You know what that brings up for me because I've been having a lot of conversations and doing a lot of reading recently around capitalism, and around how markets work and how that affects the way that we live and so on. Some things that I think would be rightly identified as Marxist or post-marxist, as well. And, you know, one point that an author that was on this show recently Martin Hagelin from, from Yale who called this life made, which I found interesting was that the liberal redistribution model while it is the most effective way that we've found, I guess, to reduce inequality in capitalist societies, the problem with it from his perspective. I mean as the final answer is that endless growth seems to really be the engine that supports credit supports economies supports supports money, and that to the extent that our welfare is attached to that. We're going to be subject to those same boom and bust. Cycles were not going to be able to do a hell of a lot about extracting all the value out of individuals time, turning people's lives into part of the clock and extract. Getting everything from the planet. Now, I know we don't have a model for anything that's better since one of the things that, that always strikes me is that we have to competitive amnesia 's right wingers act as though the nineteenth century, never happened and left-wingers very off Max's of the twentieth century never happened. So right wingers, talk about the emergence of Marxism and socialism is, though, these crazy ideas thought up for no particular reason by wild-eyed intellectuals, instead of rational responses to the miseration of vast parts of the community in the western world, you can read dickens, as well as Marx and you'll get the picture why this happened, but left us, I think tend to treat the twentieth century has though it didn't happen. It wasn't as though they weren't many to put it mildly energetic attempts to address the these inequities, and we actually learned from experience in one of the things we learned is that the model call it broadly social democratic way you understand that free markets produce enormous prosperity. They also produce enormous. Inequity. They also produce booms in Boston. You try to intervene as best you can to minimize the inequities to limit the booms in bus while still getting the, the as much as you can from the from the market model that kind of works. It works imperfectly, but it kind of works better than the other models that were try it. Certainly, unquestionably more broadly, humane, you end up with fewer people in prison camps. And, and that's with respect to. Yeah. Like when we're talking about to tout -tarian centrally planned, socialist, and on this, because it's a it's a really relevant one. That's one where you're not going to solve it through social some for certain because socialist societies have the same appetite for growth, produce the same kind of environmental degradation as capital societies to asking people to consume lask asking people to be less oriented towards growth. That's a very old and very honorable and admirable impulse. But again there again, it's not it's an impulse that's going to have to be turned into a persuadable set of. Of beliefs into a program. And so to say there is no program for that. There is no model for that as though that's the afterthought rather than the primary problem, I think can miss the scale of the of the difficulty, the truth is that we have plenty of evidence of how it is that you can have an ecological model within a capitalist society. The does better rather than worse. It doesn't do perfectly short. It does better rather than worse. I come from one of those countries Canada, where a lot of that has taken place. I don't think green politics are in any sense, an impossibility, but they're going to have to be politics. They can't just be ideology. The concern is that with the rise of this massive scaled internet fueled, techno capitalism that, you know what we're seeing with Uber, and Airbnb, and so on, that jobs are paying less and less, it's very difficult to envision a future in which an economy driven in that way provides happy life for most people. It's or even a large number. I've seen it in the world. I've live in. Journalism in the media publishing. You know, you'd have to be blind not to recognize the devastation of the crop. Yeah, I mean I don't wanna hammer endlessly on this. So it's a perfectly legitimate point. What the liberal answer to it is, is to say you have identified a series of specific things that are badly needed reform. Right. So what are the reforms that are going to make sense and the that are going to alter them? Right. Some of the reforms and this is the Matic to the book. It's why it's called thousand small these can be quite small, and yet be effective. You raise the minimum wage. Right. Right. You impose an inheritance tax you invest more in pre K schooling there, lots of things specific small things that we can do the can potentially not just potentially but it will have very large effects. So what liberalism always telling me what to reform and I'll try and build a coalition to reform it, but it's not helpful to be told that this is unreal formidable because if it's unreformable then then liberalism pauses and don't tell me and this is where liberals get techy and bad tempered, and, and don't Jim. Oh, we have to have a revolution, because we tried that, that's, that's that is on the historical record. That's not. Going to work that I can guarantee you is going to aggravate the problem and create suffering on a much larger scale than we know, we really do have that kind of experience and people who speak that way, for the most part, especially younger people generally don't understand what that history is. And they don't really grasp the as I say they have totally amnesia about the twentieth century. I don't think there's a contradiction here. But I think there's something interesting here, which is that, when you make the distinction between liberalism or liberals and the laugh and you talk about radicals, you know, radicalism on the one hand, there's a lot of, like direct critique of radicalism in the sense of revolution. And all the harm that kind of radical solutions can cause, as opposed to these thousand small sanitize on the other hand, you say that liberalism allows for a ideas that might once have been radical or considered radical to move to the center. So when you wanna point to things and call them radical and then say that. It's a bad thing. Isn't that is there some contradictions? That's no. That's a very sensitive reading of, of the book and one of the things I was trying to say in the chapter why the left hates liberalism. Is exactly that, that there's been a constant. Back and forth of feedback between what we call radicalism and liberalism that has been enormously healthy for both. That's why end the chapter on the figure Frederick, Douglass would my mind is the greatest American right? That's right. Who was both a radical, totally non. Compromising obviously abolitionist anti-slavery activists who had no time at all for the notion that, oh, we just have to wait but at the same time rejected the violent radicalism of John Brown with whom he was aligned early on. Right. And realized himself with the Republican radicalism move, ABRAHAM LINCOLN and said that's going to be the way for it. And he stayed in that mode after the war that's one of the things to make stugotz such an extraordinary figure is shows us how a radical mind in a radical set of ambitions can be expressed through a liberal temperament, that's Douglas was all about. So it exists in dialogue within his own soul, basically, between multiple sides of his own character and thinking. Also in dialogue with Lincoln wearing the list, not none of us can be Frederick Douglas for whom that dial exactly as you say, was embodied within one soul in one person. But we live within the society where that dialogue isn't embodied every day. And it's exactly true that things that we think of would have seen unimaginable in the nineteenth century women's equality when the right of women, not only to vote, but to fully participate as fully qu'ils in society when John Stuart mill who is to liberalism, what marxists to leftism when he died. It's shocking to read the obituaries, because they treat his feminism you learned from his, Harry Taylor, his wife and teacher. They treated this comical. They say you know they treated like vegetarianism also treated, this comical, those days, right? We had these little fads and fallacies thought women should be treated as equal ho, and that's something that's seems to us national arguable. Even right wingers are compelled to pay at least lip service to it. So, yes. That's one of the things a liberal societies are good at. It's taking ideas that once seem radical and making them seem essential making them seem self evident. Right. But not revolution, probably. Well. I don't want to seem like a unreflective on that because it's a complicated question. I say very specifically in the book that the American revolution was a revolution. There watching Hamilton on forty third street. You know, the world turned upside down, the battle of Yorktown, not a great battle to be celebrating by the way, because there were lots of slaves, who had run across the lines and taken refuge with the British who were Rian slaved after the Americans won the battle of Yorktown, just little no random heroes. My heroes, but that happens to be the case. Nonetheless, liberal revolutions, were the revolutions of eighteen forty eight liberal revolutions are essential. It's not that liberals are frightened pacifists. It's the liberals recognized the full experience of history, which tells you that an enormous amount can be accomplished by reform has been accomplished by reform by mobilized reform by Byron Rushton's kind of reform, and that very little has been accomplished by a radical rhetoric and radical action that just is that's revolution is a absolute last resort. Yes. An absolute last resort, not a pleasant daily reverie bright, right? That I think is true. No. I'll just add one more one more point to whatever the revolution might be. And we can all imagine revolutionary circumstances, essential to the post revolution are going to be liberal institutions institutions, because that's what we learned from the failed revolutions of the twentieth, century. If you don't have liberal institutions freedom of speech protected. Nas. Elation of parties, the right to dissent. All of those things that we take for granted. And regard is just the commonality the common ground of politics. If we don't have those things in hand, we don't protect those things, then the possibility of positive change is going to be eradicated and defending liberal institutions is not a way of being reactionary. It's a way, exactly of, of trying to serve, what I like to call radicals of the real, and that's what liberals are radicals of the real, and they are believed that radical change is possible through humane employer. Realistic measures Adam, I think now in the time that remains to us, let's do the second thing that we do in this shelter, which is for the audience. This is big thing. Also, does video interviews and these are short clips that were chosen by our producers to spark conversation, wherever it might go. Think again is brought to you by indeed dot com. When it comes to hiring, you don't have time to waste you need help getting to your shortlist of qualified candidates fast. That's why you need indeed dot com. Post a job in minutes. Set up screener questions than zero in on qualified candidates using an intuitive online dashboard. And when you need to hire fast, exhilarated, your results with sponsored jobs. New users can try for free at indeed dot com slash podcast. That's indeed dot com slash podcast. Terms, conditions, and quality standards apply. Okay. So this one is from Kurt Andersen. Who is he's an old friend of yours. Okay. And he's the host of studio, three sixty and he's an author, prolific author, and it is about the gun control debate and the second. We all now know about the second amendment. We hear about it all the time. It, it, it, it is a huge driver of, of our politics on the right. What people need to know is that the second amendment only recently became a such a salient amendment. Here's the second amendment. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a Free State. Let me repeat that a will regulated militia being necessary to the security of a Free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Well. First of all, what did that mean the second amendment back in the seventeen eighties and nineties when, when the constitution and its first amendment were written. It meant because the United the new United States would have no standing army that any armed defense of the states, or the United States would depend on militia, who would be mobilized to fight the fights they needed to fight. So there's that another important fact about the state of play when this amendment was written was the nature of, of arms themselves of guns a really good shooter could fire three or four rounds a minute. And that's a really good one with these poorly aimed muskets and early rifles that they had. So that was that was what was being regulated? It was oh, let's have a militia, and they can use these guns, which were the state of the art, but compared to. Many, many, many rounds per second firearms that we have today were. The same word but virtually a different machine so so fast or slow forward for for centuries. The second amendment didn't really come up people had guns. They haunted. Not everybody. But that's what happened that they, they use them for protection in rare cases. But it wasn't a big deal. Intel starting in the nineteen sixties when suddenly a matter of months in a few years, president, a presidential candidate, the great leader of, of African America and freedom, Martin Luther King were killed, and other other people attacked by fastens suddenly, it seemed to reasonable people that we should have some controls on on who can get guns how easily. So we enacted some very modest regulations about registration and limiting certain kinds of cheap weapons and so forth. And back then the National Rifle Association was was reasonable was fine this no subject about which I've written as much or as passionately as gun control. And it's one of my two polemical subjects that in incarceration. Mexico's ration- and the thing that's maddening about the gun control debate is, as Kurt references briefly there is that that's the case. Where the contextual originalist dispeat- doesn't even apply because it's perfectly clear and was pregnant hundreds of years that the second amendment begins with the words. Well regulated militia, the words well-regulated right in the second amendment was a gun control amendment. It was a way of trying to organize the presence of weapons in the society was not a license for them to spread freely. And what's exasperatingly maddening and fury aiding about it all is that nobody ever interpreted it in any other way, except as a way of supplying a militia, not as conferring an individual, right? To buy arms until you're in my lifetime, that never no one ever end. The decision that disgraceful decision in my mind Heller is barely a decade old. And one of the great documents of American jurisprudence is Justice Stevens, a Republican conservative Justice descent on that in a five four vote saying this is crazy. This is crazy. No one ever, imagined that the second amendment guaranteed in individual right to own weapons, you'll leave just ran. Pollution is the interpretation of this amendment for no good recent just because out of a political spasm on Justice Scalia part and Joel Poro, argues in her recent book that, you know, this emerges in the context of divide and conquer political messaging strategy s exactly it has. No. So that's a case, where there's no constitutional ground. There are other things like the electoral college, right? Which do us enormous damage, which are in fact, rooted in the constitution, and would have to be rooted out, if we're going to get them? The question is, what do we do about gun violence? Yeah. The plague of gun violence. So it's a source of some despair, and endless Helga right about it all the time. And that's where the title of this book comes into play thousand small Santa these what we do know is every time we reduce the availability of guns gun violence goes down. Great student of this. David Hemingway at Harvard, knee shown, again, and again, and again, the fewer guns, less gun violence, now, we can't control the country as a whole. This is a good example of the power of floor. And we can't be crazy enough to think, oh, we're going to be able to go down to Alabama and overnight persuade everybody to accept our view of the second amendment and of guard or by Fiat take everything away by what we can do is we can bring legislation to bear here in New York City. We can do New York state can win and more and more places doesn't always work. Perfectly Chicago has decent gun control laws municipally, but they sit right on the cusp of gun-free states, basically, and so on nothing in a liberal society works perfectly. But if we build those little wall, more and more and make the effort to sell people, an analogy that I always use here is drunk driving. Right. Okay. I'm fifty years ago. I know it's hard to believe but drunk driving was seen as just kind of cost to the road people. Drove drunk and kids got killed and there wasn't much to do about it. But we had the liberal classics you had first non-governmental action mothers against drunk driving. And so on that began to communicate to more and more people began to lead to small-scale legistlation. Then to larger scale legislation, and that is a war that's been largely been one drunk driving is something that is not nearly the plague that it was forty years ago. Although when I was living in Santa fat, and twenty years ago there were, there were actually drive through liquor stores. Still does have been. All right. And it's funny New Mexico being liberal state. Look, we not gonna find Irving solution. Right. But that's a good model of how we can find better solutions. And I think we're gonna people are going to be able to be persuaded that, you know, breath allies or missions are going to be a good idea. You put Breathalyzer ignitions in and you're really going to kill where you can't drive at all. If you're intoxicated, can't turn the key. Those are the ways we can think about it, and doing those things is has a real effect state by state in Connecticut. You have reduced gun mortality, because you've reduced the availability of guns. Those are very imperfect solutions, but they are available solutions, and they really have an effect and one of the things that we've learned is that those things are not futile at all. They're imperfect and the Preval. Of gun massacres is something that will trouble us indefinitely. We can make significant changes on small scales. Yeah. I would say, yeah. The gun massacres are a real challenge to incremental ISM, because every time one of them happens, it just the immediate powerful responses. Tell me and now. Yeah, I've written probably as much as any. Journalists in America, and I written about it in that sense of despair, and the small comfort. Again, sometimes the most heartbreaking things ever happened. It's the father of one of the kids who was killed in that crazy in-cell massacre, remembering California Rotimi to say thank you for writing, these things, even though, you know, unimaginable loss, what you can say about it is, is that change happens slowly, and then all at once and that we simply no reason to the spirit and the other thing you have to Jason's. What are alternatives, right? It's not realistic to think we are going to suddenly persuade people who have this deep investment in the gun is a symbol of their atone. Right. You know, this is gonna sound frivolous, but I really do think it's I've always struggled to empathize with people for whom the possession of a gun is so foundational to their sense of being an individual and I you know what it's like a bit. It's like tars I'm not a very good tar but I love guitars. Right. And I can spend hours looking online at old Fender Stratocaster. Two and the same thing. You know it's ridiculous. Right. But they're very powerful symbols for me of artistic expression of continued youth. And so, and I think that's what for somebody comes from a different part of the culture. That's what looking at guns is like they're not thinking about shooting people anymore that I'm thinking about playing Madison Square Garden. But that's a very pow now. It's them out there in the wind cleans, you know, moving through America's like so we have to attempt those minimal accident Pathy or we're never going to understand the world we're living in. But I do believe that progress is possible in the other truth is when we look at the vast social change that we've all lived through is that there you should forgive my saying this, because it's a copyrighted by my good friend, Malcolm. Glad. Well, there are surprising tipping points that happened. We've lived through one in the last ten years, and that's gay marriage. Right sure, from two thousand and five to two thousand nineteen gay marriage went from being a fringe position to being an indisputed central position and it changed. I so to speak on the street. It changed among people. Interactions and mores. And then it communicated itself from the ground upward Russia, Justice Robertson. The supreme court, I often think Jason I showing Livia the Kennedy Nixon debates from nineteen sixty in context of this conversation, my conversation with her, and you cannot imagine the moderator that point saying, gentlemen, Mr. Nixon, what do you think about the possibility of legal marriage for homosexuals? It's not only not going to get a good response. It's an unimaginable question to ask. And now here we are. And I'm old enough to remember the Kennedy Nixon debates we live in a world in which gay marriage is an acquired, right? That may be embattled in places or on the French, but is essentially settled, right? That is not going to be upset in our society. That's what liberals point to as examples of how change happens. And again, I think it's super important that people not misunderstand, you on the point that the shrill voices, the outrage the, you know, the immediate sort of zero sum response. That's that is part of the conversation. That's central to it, but it's not sufficient to it, right? It's not sufficient to it, and that cycle by which sometimes within the life and in the spirit of a single individual and sometimes within a society way that cycle happens is the way that what I call on the polish progress happens. Well, we're going to draw a line under the conversation here, but, but thanks so much for this Adam gopnik MRs men, and great conversation. I'm delighted to have it. Let's carry on. That's our show for this week. I'd love to hear your thoughts on any of the ideas that we talked about or anything else. You've been thinking about recently come by my website, Jason gots dot com. That's J. Aso N, G, O T, S dot com to drop me an Email or sign up for my mailing list. Next week's conversation is a fascinating one with Susan hawk, 'field, neuroscientist, and former president of MIT about the future, and the ethics of biotechnology. And I really hope you can join me for that. And now I fought from Geico motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to click on the banner ad titled you won't believe what these child stars look like now be dissatisfied and kind of sad about how the child stars look and now your computer is plagued by incessant pop up ads on this can't be to add insult to injury. You could've used those fifteen. Click bait minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico. Geigo fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. Panoply.

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11/19: Waiver Wire - Tough Calls This Week! (Fantasy Football Podcast)

Fantasy Football Today

1:06:37 hr | 1 year ago

11/19: Waiver Wire - Tough Calls This Week! (Fantasy Football Podcast)

"This is fantasy football today from CBS. Sports got email us at fantasy football at CBS. I dot com in the waiver wire. Now here's some combination of anti what you're doing right now and start. Start Making your waiver. Claims GonNa be busy busy night. There are a lot of players to pick up the league's but it's time welcome to the show. Oh here on Tuesday. We're talking waiver wire whether you're picking up a running Eddie position it's just loaded this week except there. Are Some injury concerns. We don't know who's going to be available. We'll help you sort it all out. Welcome to the Dave. Richard Jamey Eisenberg. Who are our top priorities? This week. fellas there's two running backs that I keep going back and forth on in its job and Williams and Bo scarborough and I think Williams is better and we twelve but once Marlin Matt comes back. Whenever that is I'd I'd he'll be useless for fantasy boast? Garbo's got a chance to be the main back in Detroit. I've got Williams ahead of him right now. The I've gone back and forth as well for me at scarborough for two reasons seasons one. He's got a better match up this week against Washington to Jordan. Wilkins could play. Wilkins plays then. It's a mess for Jonathan Williams for Jordan. Wilkins Wilkins hines and then factor in that MARLA. Mecca come back but yeah it's it's it's tough. We had a fun debate on on on. HQ on Monday about about who should be the better of the two and I think probably the same conversation here. It's it could be a situation where you pick up scarborough and salons running back and get screwed right. It could be situation where you pick up Williams and and again it's it's Jordan Wilkins coming back. And he's the lead guy for for the goal to you could pick up Wilkins and maybe you made the right choice. It's it's a weird week because there's not A Slam slam-dunk really at any position for me at least outside of quarterback if you could find Baker Mayfield right. That's a good point. 'cause like Nelson Galore could have a big week. He's at night or more targets in all all three games. That alshon Jeffery hasn't played or God hurt really early as was the case in week two. But what if Alshon Jeffery plays and you're not GonNa want anything to do with Nelson Galore Baker Mayfield not only great matchup. This week with three of his next four are really good. We'll take a look at some of those top matchups. DST's if you were going for a DSP maybe you're said everywhere somewhere By the way also like another factor. Here we got some firepower on by. We've got the chargers. The chiefs the Vikings of the cardinals on a by this week our last by week. But if you if you wanted a DSP when you say firepower dumpster fire for Philibert. Aw I feel bad you know. It's time it's time to go. I know no I don't I don't look there have been I went and I looked at his game log and there have been stretches in his recent Pascutti like an entire year. I think two thousand sixteen or maybe seventeen not really just wasn't very good and then he comes back he's like hey I'm not done yet. They changed dot org three weeks ago. I is offense coordinator coordinator under throwing passes and overthrowing receivers through. He's playing right now but he has fooled us. He has fooled us before. He's he's you know I I I think he's. He's one of the more fun guys to debate. If he's a hall of Famer not I think he is and he's had a fantastic career. It's unfortunately a lot of bad luck. Have you watch the game. You saw the the graphic show. He's third in terms of wins for quarterbacks that have not won a championship behind Dan Marino in France Arcton. But when they hit a wall quarterbacks they hit a wall and and he just does not look good anymore. And you know a franchise. That's making a move into a new stadium and you can talk about their fan base all you want to. I think it's time to turn the page and move on the fridge and also you know to to move on from from rivers because because it just appears as if he can't get the job abdon anymore I I hope you're right Adam but it'd be nice if they stick with him if he comes back and plays well but I just I just can't see you think he hit the wall and like week ten. That's what I'm going. You know if it started week one. It'd be one thing it's so recent you know he was having a perfectly fine season and then he has been terrible. I be awful I I know but it's not as bad. What is the stretch? Where Peyton manning got benched eventually won the Super Bowl but you know that that stretch of games where he just looked awful like? That's what is starting to feel like rivers I'd okay. I'll be a little more optimistic. Well we'll talk about that game from a standpoint going into a by. I mean there's no reason to keep him on your fantasy roster but You know I just look at the last. The last four games of of I think last year or maybe two years ago I tweeted it last night. Terrible that seventy five passer rating. He had more more interceptions than touchdowns and then he was just fine for the first. You know half of the season okay. Anyway Jonathan Williams Bo scarbrough Baker Mayfield's huge DSP. What was the question before we got into? The I mean. They're so Philip rivers talk. How could you be talking about Philip rivers if football fan right now but what are the? DST's we're looking at this week. I think you've gotta look at the Lions because they're going up against Washington and the redskins offense that just doesn't look good at all and ah I feel like that. That should be the top target. You could probably make a case for the raiders again against the jets. It's going to be a harder matchup for them. And then Cleveland also. You have to consider them. I don't like that they don't have myles Garrett and Ogun jobe against the dolphins. But it's still the dolphins. Yeah like the Falcons defense a lot. They've been playing fantastic. The last half and really get Jamison the turnovers that are always on the table within plus he's hobbled so i. Think the Falcons defense. If what's I I don't I don't get it because it's just the the the coaching change and the playcalling change It's not the coach's name but the playcalling change. They Shuffle Their coaching staff Yeah that's what I meant but I think back to when when you hear coaching change people thinks. Yeah all right but Just Dan Quinn letting go of the play calling duties. I don't know why it took this long day like a completely different team. And it's James so that's why you look at the Falcons. Thought the Falcons does the Falcons defense give you faith for. Philip rivers. Thinks Turnaround Ladies and gentlemen all right so Jonathan Williams Bo scarbrough Baker Mayfield. Is there a top top tight end priority this week. Well I think the top receiver. I know you mentioned. It should be James Washington. She didn't know there was. There was a nice report. Developing between Rudolph in Washington. They played together in college You know you throw the browns game because that was just a disaster but they're playing the bengals this week. NFL Doodoo knee. Brace and coming off a concussion deonte Johnson stone. The concussion protocol All the targets you can handle so against Cincinnati. That's something worth buying line into so He's my favorite receiver and tight ends. I mean you know Jack. Pallister is probably the best to look at Bahrain Griffin's coming offers strong game No fat the targets have been up heat's been talking about that for the last few weeks and then same thing Vance McDonald you get a scenario of a lot of targets that he should be able to get. We'll be successful with them. That's the question. Did you go back and forth between Griffin and Hollister no. You're you're all in all I think hollister's he's got the better quarterback in I think you you buy into that but I it it wouldn't be surprising better okay so Griffin Hollister and then for the steelers you mentioned James Washington. Their backfield's really interesting thing. You think conor first of all kind of a chance to play this week done doesn't sound like it. He seemed pessimistic on a radio. Show last night all right. So then you've got what Jalen Samuels Trey Edmunds. May Benny Snell factoring in here against a great match against the Bengals and you know maybe samuels seventy nine percent. Maybe he's your top priority priority. If he's available would he be jail he would be. He would be at the running back position without over Jonathan Williams and Bo scarbrough. Yeah Now I don't know if I'm there are yeah because we don't know exactly how they divvy up the carries but you know Mason Rudolph is GonNa throw to Jalen Samuels like thirteen times I mean that happened a few weeks ago. A couple of things to promote here. We got our apple. PODCASTS mailbag tomorrow and Saturday so feel free to please leave a nice comment and reading some of them and We appreciate it very nice stuff. Thank you very much and we'll get to not all those questions but a good portion of them facebook giveaway this week. If you WANNA join our facebook group rip fantasy football today so really. It's a good community of people who love fantasy football so get on. Their toughest starts at decision this week. Sending some of your toughest starts at decisions as we will have a facebook contest of facebook giveaway of a free fantasy football today. T shirt that you can get and please. We haven't watched the video youtube dot com slash fantasy football today. Watch the Sunday night show and Dave doing karate two minutes and fifty seconds into the video. It's wonderful well what are we doing about Fab this week guys like lay it out for me. How much are we spend it on on who I would I would say? Don't go crazy again but you know you're at the point in the season where if you gotta get a win you gotTA. They're going to win. So we'll take that into account but I would say it's probably about fifteen to twenty percent on scarborough and Williams You know the Nice thing about Williams is since against the colts play on Thursday. We got an idea of. What is the practice? Status is for Jordan Wilkins that he did not participate if they would have practiced that's what they listed him as so if he does practice on Tuesday. Then you definitely go scarborough. If Wilkins does not practice on Tuesday then it's a little bit more of a okay. Who Do I like better? Who Do I think is going to play better again? I would still lean towards scarborough He had more carries than any other lions running back since week. Four so in this mess that they fat and that's including Kerryon Johnson Kerryon Johnson twenty carries in week four since then no other running back has had more than thirteen they gave him fourteen carries so I still would probably lean toward him because I do think the match ups a little bit better against Washington I think Driscoll's actually played well so even if it's Williams this week hines will still take on a role and then next week. You have this scenario of either a Wilkins coming back. Because I don't think it's going to be that much longer for him and then Marlin so I think it's probably fifteen percent if you're trying to be conservative with both so it just want bring this up with scarborough. I don't really believe it. I just WANNA bring it up. Do you think that he got all that work. Because he was facing the cowboys team. Cottam no I think he got that work because the lions have been desperate to find somebody who can run the ball effectively and he got the job done on and he passes the eyeball test if you go back in your watch him play. He's he's a solid one cut runner who Really we ten. He's not a great running back. Let's leave that right off the top he doesn't have great acceleration For a guy his size I feel like he should be like plowing through tackles a little bit better than he does. But he's the best that they have and as long as offensive line can block form and as long as he's the one working at the goal line offense that can move the football even without Matthew Stafford I think Driscoll's proven that now for two straight games. I think I think he's the answer. If you need a running back rest of season over Jonathan Williams okay so if you don't WanNA spend FAB on players for this week if you don't care about we twelve that much you know you're GonNa make the playoffs and you're looking forward. Let's take a look at some players who have good matchups not just in week. Twelve but but moving moving on and Sam Darnold his next three games look Great Oakland. Cincinnati and Miami. You're probably not going to use him in weeks. Fifteen and sixteen but if you need we get there Sam Darnold can help you out for three more weeks. Perhaps Baker Mayfield Pittsburgh next week. He just twenty twenty eighty five. Fancy ones against Pittsburgh when it's a bad match but it's Miami Than Pittsburgh then Cincinnati than Arizona's three of his next four games for Baker Mayfield are really good. And he's been pretty good against it's tough match-up. These are his last. Three Games have been against teams. That are top five against quarterbacks and he's had eighteen twenty one and twenty five fantasy points. In six point her passing touchdown leaks respectable performances. So pretty soon he's going to be facing you. Know some of the worst teams against quarterback. So that's Mayfield if you see devante parker on your waiver. Wire he's eighty percent own fantasy playoffs there. There's there's a couple of other quarterbacks before you go there foles a schedule gets after the titans. They've actually been a little bit leaky against against quarterbacks against Tampa Bay the chargers what that's worth than Oakland in Atlanta we'll see vocal in Atlanta. They played better the last two weeks but will he Will you have the chance there. And then Tannahill you know. Are you talk about Favorable schedules after the COLTY GETS OAKLAND IN HOUSTON. I'm sorry after he gets the colts. Oakland Houston and the raiders and the Texans could be fatal liberal matchups two and Daniel Jones Dana Jones Daniel. Johns is a good school. We said quarterbacks what do you mean he's still working progress all chiefs chiefs bengals and You'RE GONNA wait a week on Jones if if he saw on your way Eagles Dolphins Redskins in the playoffs for Dino John's Devante Parker's got great playoff automatic. Dallas garnered who also could be good this week of Alshon Jeffery is out. He got six targets against doing lenny caught a touchdown he's been pretty good about five straight weeks basically at least usable and Seattle's not great against tight ends Miami. The giants the Redskins the cowboys. These are good matchups. Dallas Scott are going forward. I don't know if you care it doesn't seem like you do based on your priority Jacob Hollister actually has terrible matchups though Alpha nine. US fantasy points tight ends. Minnesota Eighth Rams Eleventh Panther six and then the cardinals in week sixteen. That's good but you know I. It's so hard with tight ends. One performance against tight ends could really change a team's ranking against the position. So one really good or bad So I don't know but Jacob Hollister on paper has bad matchups. Well the part of the reason why have auster I is. We are expecting tyler. Lockett to be fine. If Tyler Lockett is not there he could be fantastic because yeah just the boost and so we are expecting so but we like Tyler Tyler. Lock it's GonNa play. And what is that. No but but but I I mean he's he's been. I'm good with Tyler Lockett. He was good with decay. McAfee was good even with Josh Gordon. And no asking him. So I think it's an offense that wants to feature that position somewhat prominently from wilderness to Hollister you know they've sort of bridge that gap and Hollister's picked up the mantle. The last three weeks You can make a strong case Ryan Griffin being the top ten and. I have no problem with that. I mean he's been very good without correspondent on the field through the last four games. He's been fantastic. You should have been for the last five so I would not be surprised if somebody picks up griffin overhaul store. I just think. There's a better spot because quarterbacks better I'm GONNA say Griffin's and a slightly better spot because I think he's just a little bit more involved in the offense than than Hauser's and and how she's been involved a ton but the game against Tampa Bay. It felt like they were scheming. them up in that one because it's the bucks in that defense is so bad and then against San Francisco. He was more or just a short area. Guy For Russell Wilson. And that's not a bad thing. Because what is Russell Wilson. Do better than any other quarterback in this league. It's improvised when a plague breaks down. And you WANNA have a pass ask catcher available like that. How does move pretty well? But I liked the results that I've seen for Griffin. They're both top ten tight ends for me this week. I've griffin ranked just a little bit higher against against Oakland. And I think he's got a really good shot to keep this momentum going as a as a more integral part of this jets offense okay. Well we've pretty much given you. The top priorities is but of course. We'll we'll go a little bit deeper. There are a lot of names that we have not mentioned yet that need to be mentioned Yeah and and got guys that are owned in a lot of leagues that might be available like to Rico Win Jamison crowder about eighty percent owned so plenty of players to talk about here. I we have to talk about seekie though you know. Seek in an industry that tends to stagnate seek decided to stand out from the crowd a lot of ticketing APPs. They don't care about the customer experience but seek does they have built the fastest way to find tickets. You can can stop searching for the perfect seat and start enjoying it and I you seek and you know you seek in fact. I got a notification in the grocery store this weekend saying hey. Do you still want those jets redskins tickets because you remember. I was looking for a week but I do appreciate it as I was searching for that game. And we've found great seats. We found great seats with great prices and seek mixed so easy to see the great values. These big green dots tell you these are the tickets to buy. Why in fact Dave are hoops team Miami hurricanes coming up to Brooklyn in a couple weeks already been looking for tickets on seek GonNa make that purchase Pretty soon twenty of good seats available for that one by the way so anyway seeking pulls together millions of tickets from all over the web rates them on a scale of one to ten every purchases guaranteed and you could save ten bucks off your first purchase with the Promo Code F F T again ten bucks Promo Codes F. F. T. so download that Zeki gap search for your event and type in the Code F. F. T. and get ten dollars off your first purchase. Okay let's waiver wire here first of all the injuries that we need to know about. I hope you heard the The chat with Dr Chow yesterday. Eight pointed out to Shawn Watson. Looks like he has a mild high ankle sprain and he should be fine. But you know Dr Chow was worried about Was Worried about Patrick. Mahomes his ankle all the way back in week one and he had every reason where we were downplaying it. It made a difference so so Watson's got an ankle not gonNA miss the game but something to know. Staffer could be out of wile while Mitchell trubisky hurt his ribs and Dr Chow thinks he does have an injury. It's not that they're lying but he could play through it if they want him to play through it and he's got the giants I mean. Could you be looking at Mitch. trubisky or chase Daniel against the giants trubisky twenty four or five twenty four twenty five fantasy points in three of his last six games James and horrible the other three no. Are you really asking that question. I mean the giants make everyone look good we were. He might not even be their quarterback back. That's what I said or chase Daniel Now all right now now. They're just better options available to you. Know if you're if you're stuck clearly you know like you can probably make a strong debate of the bears quarterback versus Dwayne Haskins. 'cause you know at least ask them got twenty points. Yeah coming off of their bye week. And he's got a good matchup against Detroit. Their defense has been awful. So you know to struggling quarterback scenarios in good good matchup situations but you know I think he just hopefully have the opportunity to pick up some of these other guys that we're talking about did you. Guys see the video of Dwayne askins. Talking ofensive line. Yes it was an ad. It was very sad he was like. What can I do to help you? And they're just sitting. There seems I liked it up. You know you never know what the real situation they. Retire barely paid attention to a bit see. They did not have anything Jameis. Winston hurt his ankle ankle. He should be fine and let's go to the running back news Mar.. The MAC had the hand surgery but doesn't mean he'll be out long James Connor not likely to play. And it's GonNa it'd be Jalen Samuels. Maybe Benny Snell plays Trey. EDMUNDS EDMUNDS and SNELL. Widely available Damian Williams left with injured ribs and the Shawn McCoy was evaluated valuated for a concussion. They have a bye Damian. Williams are you gonNA be looking to pick him up or you know they're gonNA era Williams. Yeah Sorry Darrell. Oh Yeah if you have an open roster spot and you can't get somebody Of the colts guys because again I don't just think it's not the ones but he can't get one of the colts. Colts guys are or Bo. SCARBROUGH I haven't third on the list. I just think you're looking at any opportunity for him to be a long-term answer there if the rib injury lingers in you know McCoy they don't WanNa trust fully. It's not a bad player to Mecca. Yeah but they. They gave him a coil out of work wants. Damian went down there there are a lot of work to they did. And it's going to be a split backfield between the two of them. I think the best way to handle Williams's if he's still there after the waivers run on Wednesday morning then then you pick them up. I wouldn't make a priority. He has only three games. Daryl Daryl Williams with more than four touches and he has one hundred yards for a touchdown and all three of them so he's been productive but we know the deal there. It'd be one thing if they didn't have a by then we'd be more excited about him. Right Babai Do you expect day. FREEMEN AGAINST TAMPA Bay. No they're more optimistic about it than I was expecting but we'll find out. They said he has a chance to practice on Thursday. Same with hooper right. That was that was very surprising. Yeah we don't expect you let's make Riley do you expect Jordan Howard against Seattle. Not As okay. Brandin cooks is expected to return this week. So that's cool. tyreek Hill hurt his hamstring. We saw that and MOCO hardman. An and Marcus Robinson were solid with tyreek hill out again. If they didn't have a by it'd be one thing but hopefully he can get back T. Y.. Hilton has a chance to play this week. Thursday against let's Houston willful. There's GonNa be a game time decision in that game. Juju has got the knee and the concussion. deontay Johnson Concussion Sterling Shepard practice but he's not out of the concussion protocol. Oh yet if you see shepherd available and you see James Washington available where you going. Washington Washington spare. Nice place ago. Amari Cooper for is still dealing with a knee injuries playing through it but still dealing with a knee injury and you saw that you saw that in the game against Detroit. Is there any chance. You're going to be sitting Amari Cooper in his next to match ups against the Patriots and the bills. No He's the lowest I've Adam Maybe all season which is where outside. Top fifteen still top twenty. I Tyler Boyd. Was the ball squeaky wheel Pittsburgh covered up heat. Heat that a an interesting theory which I thought was That the bengals look at the steelers and down all these guys on offense down pouncey because the suspension do they make a plea to Zack Taylor to play Andy Dalton to get a win just to get. I've already said Finley's so I I get it from the team's perspective because you want to see family can get a win you know so. Can he manage through a a game where they have a chance to actually be competitive and play well But you know like Keith. Point was the the the veteran guys go to say. Stop just play. Andy Dalton one more time well on that note are we going to get eight. Green is week. I'd be shocked. Why would this week be different than any other week? Tyler Lockett this week. Yes we expect him how about Emmanuel they will sanders not injured. So That's interesting but at this point you've got to be a little bit concerned. Muhammed said new and Philip door set. Dorsey new yes Alshon I didn't. It doesn't look good. Corey Davis I couldn't find it. I'm not sure. Yeah Ebony Rory's out this way. He doesn't practice on Wednesday after being on a bio last week. It's probably not a good sign. Evan Ingram did not practice. David Joke could be back this week against the dolphins. That's interesting and Delaney Walker may be back this week as well All right let's so let's get a little bit more into the waiver wire you know. Usually we call an audible usually usually we do like you know three priorities. Now and then we get into a little bit later. Let's just get into it and then we'll talk about the The Rams bears and the chiefs chargers. Let's not those games out real quick ready there. We go rams bears audibles. Are we call. This is my second one. Rams Bears Komo Omaha thought a lot about the rams offense on yesterday. Show if you missed that. We're just a weird game runs and No Woods is no cooks so any major takeaways from From the starbucks bears three Cohen. Starting at more and more snaps he actually played more snaps. Naps and David Montgomery yesterday. What what's your read on? Three Cohen Versus Montgomery Coen starting to close in on him as a a in a fifty fifty type of situation and he should. He's got way more juice he's a good pass catcher. He can take pressure off the quarterback with little short passes they should have been having Cohen. This involved all along. Fourteen touches easily should have been having that much work all along but but the coaching staff got enamored with Montgomery. They loved his three point. Two yards per carrier whatever he was giving them and they kind of ignored Cohen. And it's it's cost them in a couple of games they gotTA keep coming on the field. He's a threat to defenses and he's a good pr running back. I've got him as the top twenty four running back this week and BP are cool it. Do we still have faith in David. Montgomery and Alan Robinson Robinson yes Montgomery Montgomery has yet got to be good this week if his ankles. Okay I mean you say is going to get fourteen eighteen touches a game. Fourteen carries with the ankle injury which was all surprising thing. I thought they said this Adam I mean clearly. He wasn't going to be a hundred percent. All you're GONNA do is get him hurt worse you know if if something went wrong He wasn't going to be effective and he saw that. So I think it's just another Matt Nagy Mistake and he's made a bunch of them But I think if Montgomerie places week he's he's he's in that number two running back conversation just because the giants defense has been bad. What about Allen and others Robinson I think bounces back you know? It's it's no matter who the quarterback is this. I want you rather see Chase Daniel Taylor Gabriel's giving you at least nine. Pr Points Four Straight Games. They've started to get him a little bit more than the offense to make sense again. Another guy that's got speed and can threatened defenses. Why not use them? And it's a good matchup against the giants. That's I I think Gabriel's injury kind of has been a little bit of a problem for this team because the best game that you're bisky played was against Washington when he had the three touchdowns. Gabriel that Yep and then he got hurt. Yeah the concussion that game. He didn't play for that. Stretch of games until we see in the last month. Ah came back week seven something like that really helped too much we. Well I think I think you know. Th that's trubisky started to. The hope would have been that. He started to play well at that point at least you know assembles quarterback. Yeah he's not very good and our Robinson. Got A lot of jalen Ramsey in this game and in terms of the snap council twitter running backs you know. Cohen had see Thir- forty five to Montgomery's thirty five but maybe that was interrelated over the rams. What the hell all? I don't even know what to say. I said a lot yesterday about the rams but I guess Cooper Cup do you still feel like. He's a must start guy. He's a number two receiver. He's just inside my top twenty four. Yeah Okay Yeah it and look. It's probably a different feeling it. It may not be the same but if the ball crossed the goal line you feel better about him but his last month has been dad The offensive line. They did a great job run blocking against team that has struggled against the run and now they have to play just a terrible terrible match. The Ravens Defense has been fantastic. So it's hard to say any of the rams guys feel good. You know you probably by back into girly a little bit because of the position that he plays They made note of it on the broadcast. I think that Gerald ever you know playing through the injury and did not look the same. Yeah so you think you can drop him Gerald Everett for a streamer iced. I struggled with suggesting that but I think he's in that conversation. You know if you need to make a move at the tight end position you you'd rather have hollister griffin forever. Yeah so He He's you know I should probably just the column when put him in the droplets. But yeah I mean look it's It was good to see McVeigh adjust. Change their run blocking and and how they operated in that game. It was successful until the bear sorta figured out a little bit But if you say girls getting twenty plus touches you're gonNA start him even though they're playing Baltimore. Is this the time of year where they ramp up. We talked about this during the preseason that maybe ask lighten the load until they make their playoff push and then they just they just let girly go. Maybe this is the beginning of that. The one thing that I think you just keep an eye on heath brought this up up. Yesterday is every time they've given him a bigger workload. The following week hasn't exactly been great so the one example you can look at it. As as week seven against Atlanta in a he had nineteen touches eighteen carries they came back the following week against Cincinnati. He had ten carries for forty four yards and that was the game in London heading into their bye week. So Oh you know. Is he going to be able to rebound physically. If the knee is still concerned so but but I I can't see people benching him unless you just have a loaded roster system out of you know how much how successful will he all right next. Game can't city twenty four and the chargers seventeen it came right right down to the wire so these teams are going to their by. Do you have concerns about the chiefs offense just in general guys I mean look. They lost their lead running back in their lead. Receiver you know in the game obviously tyreek Hill early in the game. So it's not. I think a fair comparison of what this offenses but the offensive line is clearly been battling through some injuries. You had mahomes. He looked great against Tennessee. He looked you know mediocre in this game I the field conditions the altitude. You know you factor almost things in I like that he was running. That shows you that. He feels comfortable with his knee that he can move the way dead but take tyreek hill away and Sammy. Watkins has been an absolute disaster So you mentioned. The young guys stepped up at times when tyreek hill was out early this season. But they're still young and inconsistent with Robinson Hardman. So I I mean I. It's not like you're getting away from Mahomes tyreek Hill Travis Kelsey. Those are the three main components. And then if Damian Williams is fine coming off their bye week he still be early running back but it probably will be a committee at that point. Do you drop Sammy. Watkins and Mike Williams in their bye. Week Yeah Okay even with the prospect of perhaps tyreek hill being out. You know like Sammy Watkins. It's it is pathetic. Had One good game. He was amazing in week. One he he has been good since but even if he comes back in week thirteen and plays well against Oakland. It's at New England and then Denver at home and then at Chicago. Yeah okay at that schedule is going to get a little hairy for Kansas City here. Yeah Okay let's Let's get back to the waiver wire now. And let's go through it here. We go quarterbacks ax. And we'll talk about players to drop in this list as well so quarterbacks Baker Mayfield's number one jamie yea. Yeah Okay Look Great. Call talk about that. He's sixty two percent own. Do you think he's GonNa be good or like. Do you think he could be the winning great. I think league-leading great. I mean you know you've seen the last two weeks I know you referenced. Last three games but the last two weeks against buffalo and Pittsburgh two of them toughest match-ups that we've seen all season long. He's got at least twenty one fantasy points in those two games The dolphins you know they just may Josh Allen Look like a hall of Famer and so now that tank is a tank I wonder where their mindset is that across the board I'm joking clearly. Still WanNA lose but They're they're they're secondary's not good their pass rush isn't good. You know. Baker is going to you. I you know. I think the the targets that he's giving his two receivers. Those guys will be successful so with the match ups that he has a head and and the way that he's performed late it just seems as if they've turned the corner and I'm I'm hopeful for Baker. Being a you know we have them sportsline Hasim for consensus. We have an eleven I think he's got a top ten upside this week He's just outside my top five so I think bakers got a chance for for big week against Miami. I agree and I think the fact that the dolphins just can't put pressure on the quarterback is going to work in his favor. He's been making better. Throws the last couple of weeks. The running backs acts have been helping them out especially Kareem Hunt. You look at what he's been doing in the passing game. Yeah he's he's. He's really helped Baker. He's helped push the numbers up a little bit. I think a floor of two hundred and fifty yards two touchdowns no turnovers as their for Mayfield. Don't think it's going to be a game where they just run like crazy either. Because the dolphins run defense I think they showed something last week against buffalo better running back this week but Mayfield should be able to come through yeah. I don't know if there's anything it's Buffalo. They allow five yards carrying seventy five yards a single. He just didn't score so and Josh Allen. Yeah he led most of those yards on. Like what two carries single Terry Randy Benson good okay. So would you rather have Jameis Amos Winston or Baker Mayfield rest of season. So I'm taking Mayfield just to use him now. And if I WANNA double back for James later. I'm going to try and do it. There are so many quarterbacks and we've already kind of touched on it that have good schedules. Moving forward streaming isn't a bad way to go. If you're not comfortable with the quarterback that you have Jameson Miss you definitely can't feel comfortable with at this. Point fell burgers is another one. You let them go you go start streaming you'll be okay. All righty Jacoby Reset has Houston. Houston this week. How much do you like your Kobe? said he seventy one percent. Would he behind Baker Mayfield and then is he just a start. In general he's behind Mayfield. He is a starter this week. Remember remember against the Texans he let them up for thirty fancy points so With the running game being suspect the key I think will be then. There's a shot according to reports if t y Hilton someplace if the oil is out there then it's easy to buy back into perset if two islands out that's a little bit more of a question mark so just take that into account But the Texas defense is bad you know and and I think that he would have the chance to to be successful. I've got him ahead of Brady ahead of Josh Allen Great streaming option if he somehow out out there he's definitely candidate and that's without. Ty Their Secondary Got Pretty beat up in that in the last game on Sunday so on quilt more. Yep Quick word a real quick here from ziprecruiter okay. Hiring can be a slow process and cafe alturas. Coo Dylan Moskowitz needed higher director of coffee for his organic coffee the company but he was having trouble finding qualified applicants so he switched to Ziprecruiter. Ziprecruiter does not depend on candidates. Finding you it finds them for you. 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You can go to this week. We've got Nick Foles at Tennessee. They have been Kinda against quarterbacks lately Jeff Driscoll thirty one fantasy points against hours. He scored seventeen fantasy points at Chicago. Two weeks weeks ago but the Redskins To be quite crazy and again Chicago Ohka to be quite honest. They haven't been great. Hasn't been a great match up lately lately because teams have thrown that much on them. But if you throw lately lately would be a different conversation. Well okay. darnold was great. Donald was great before for that. You know only two quarterbacks scored more than eleven points in their last five games against the redskins. But they're not good and driscoll could run and and then you've got darnold against Oakland and Tannahill against Jacksonville. That's not a great matchup right now So how would you rank become full. This is how Jamie has right. Now in the column foles Driscoll Darnold Tannahill Dave any thoughts on that and Jamie is going to change. I I agree with Foale's at the top of that list. I'd go darnold next and I just I like the way he's playing and I don't think the just can run the ball very effectively over the course of four quarters channels next driscoll's last last. But I liked driscoll I just. I had a hard time with quarterbacks. This week I wanted to put eighteen guys in my top twelve. Couldn't do it. There are just so many good ones out there. I like just the best to start this week of that group. I like foles. The bus long-term of that group and he's not far behind just live in back to back in my rankings. The one thing about Darnold Donald and yes. He's played better and the run game has struggled. The Raiders Defense has played very well the last two games and so I wonder if their pass ashes getting better. If they're gonNA make things a little bit difficult on Darnold so I would not be shocked if Donald how they disappointing game. Not that he's going to be fifteen fancy points but I could see maybe in that eighteen twenty getting cap there. I don't WANNA get enamored with thirty three points against the redskins skins because Washington is so bad. The raiders are playoff-caliber team for reasons. Not just because there Carin. Josh Jacobs are playing. Well is because their defense has really turned the corner of the last two games Darla was under some. I'm pretty consistent pressure from Washington. and He did good in that game. And I think with the raiders traveling across the country and he's going to have a good opportunity to play okay in the face of their passports. I agree he's not going to get your thirty three but can get you twenty-three again another quarterback I've got him just like percent like would love to put them way up a pie and my rankings. There's just so many other quarterbacks better but an excellent streaming option now and for the next few weeks so rivers is an easy to drop Stafford at this point. I think you can drop him. Jared Golf is a is a drop. Kennedy's ninety two percent on. What have you have Jameis Winston? What have you have Tom Brady what he do this week? Do you try to roster to quarterbacks and sit those guys is or what I mean if you need to win you're dropping those guys So it's just the nature where it is right now. I wouldn't be surprised to James while in terms of the fancy production. Because that's just the type of quarterback Damon says he throws three hundred yards every week. The falcons defense has played fantastic. The last two games and it was you know against drew brees for one. That's clearly a strong performance. Kyle photos worth so you know will will they be in a comeback scenario. Where that's where James does? Well it would also not be surprised if his ankles are problem and he has some turnovers again and James gets bench so the sexiest account get are running back. Conversation started here Okay so it starts with with the colts situation relation and the Lions with Bo scarbrough Jonathan Williams. We talked about that. Some is though that might be available their own about seventy percent of leagues or more Jalen. Samuels Finals Royce Freeman Duke Johnson Darius guys and Tariq Cohen David Look at that list of five Jalen Samuels Royce Freeman Duke Johnson Johnson Darius guys into Rico. And what do you think if you see any of these players waivers. I'm thinking I want to try. And Adam I like. We are talking about Cohen. I like him. NPR this week. I think Samuels Hamill's carry some good value for this week against Cincinnati for obvious reasons Gas You mentioned. He had a nice catch. and Run for a touchdown. Maybe that leads to more opportunities opportunity since he's got still some some youthful fresh explosive legs on him. That hopefully stay healthy GimMe the names one. More time. It was one that you mentioned the guy or guys first of all is facing a team that gives up the most receiving yards two running backs that the lions the lions. They're run because as you gotta hope that he gets that opera. Yes and that Chris Thompson Zain doesn't play again. Jalen Samuels Royce Freeman Duke Johnson Darius guys into Rica Cohen. Yeah Freeman is interesting to me too because the matchup against Buffalo. He's not getting a lot of work though. I mean not as much as as Lindsay no but I I almost wonder if they go into that game trying to run the ball because the bills bills despite what we saw last week against the dolphins have had trouble with the run so just generally speaking. How should I think about boasts Garbo Jonathan Williams? This week I think scarborough's just in a better spot from the standpoint of he seems to be the leading rusher there after the fourteen carries again. I'll say the same same stat since week. Four it's the most carries that the lions have given one guy. He's not going to work in the past game. He catches no targets but the matchup against Washington Washington is somewhat favorable. They've a lot of running back to score and for the last five games so I think if he's getting fourteen fifteen carries. It wouldn't be surprised if surprising if Detroit's playing with elite here and so maybe he's getting even more work closing out. The game was tied Johnson struggling. Jd mckissick being in passing downs guy now for Williams and the colts guys. This is just messy because if Wilkins practices on Tuesday or they say on Wednesday he's fine. He said on Monday that he feels like he's ready to play. I'm sure he's looking at it as okay. I get an opportunity to start now. I'M GONNA come back out there. And that was the first game that he's missing his career that it's probably going to be him if you're just looking at what there was before his ankle injury so will it be Williams who was great against the Jaguars. Aftermath got hurt over one hundred yards had thirty one yard catch or will it be the guy that they've trusted for the last two seasons. So you also up. Nine hines who's GonNa work on passing downs and the Texans matchup is not easy. I mean last week against Baltimore. They got ran through. It was a big run by Gus Edwards. Mark Ingram had the two receiving evening touchdowns. That's the first touchdown allowed to running back. Since Week. Six and the first rushing touchdown they allowed to running back since week. Four so and that's including against the colts with Marlon. Not Going eight hundred forty four against them so it's just not an easy situation to say Jonathan Williams okay because he had a hundred yards steps in and is a good fantasy asset. I just don't know if that's something you WanNa hang on on. We gotta take a break real quick. We gotta take a break. I'm GonNa let you get the last word in here though if we if it looks like George Wilkins is going to play you. Know get the practice report. And he's in on Tuesday did do you just say. I don't want any colts running back and I'm just going to focus all my attention on both scarborough or or somewhere somewhere else. Is that situation. Yeah I don't know if you'll prioritize Jonathan Williams at all if that's the case what about like this is I'm I'm picking up wilkens second after scarborough because I would think that he's going to be the second guy and Marlin back may be out for the rest of the season. I don't think that's the case. But you never know how they'll respond onto a broken hand. And if they just going to allow him to take his time to get healthy. So if you tell me Jordan Wilkins practice on Tuesday. He's the second guy for me and that's over hinds as well. I'll keep your obvious. You know what HINES IS A. Yeah I mean there. The whole thing will be messy but you know if Jordan Wilkins is the starting running back for the colts from week. Twelve through week fourteen or fifteen. I would hang my hat on that as the second. Got It. Okay I'll unfortunately a lot of good defenses coming up for the colts Houston Tennessee Tampa Bay New Orleans the lions to yeah right CHICAGO MINNESOTA TAMPA BAY and Denver. Well great stuff guys okay. We'll take a quick break here. We'll finish up on running backs. Wide receivers tight ends right after this. This Danny Canal one half of the canal and bell podcast alongside Raja Belt Raza. And I cover. What's trending running in sports from the perspective of former pro athletes five times a week? We'll tackle subjects sports that matter to us while relating back to our own playing days. Nothing is off limits limits. Well almost nothing. Join US Monday through Friday and subscribe to the Cannella NBELL podcast anywhere. PODCAST found welcome back. Everybody Audie Adam as Dave Richard. Here we got a lot of names to get to. Where's Jamie Jamie had some? HQ video responsibilities to get to so he's going to step aside. Make sure you're watching fantasy football today today on. HQ Noon Eastern. Monday through Friday ten. AM On Sunday to get your lineup. Set M Eastern and he can catch it on demand. If you don't see it live okay. We are in the middle of running back and I. I think we've talked enough about those two running backs they're really. are that many more Dave. But how about the steelers. Let's give me your thoughts on the steelers. Now if you see Jalen Samuels. We already said Jalen Simmons on the waiver wire. He's number one right. He's ahead of scarborough and he's ahead of I don't feel that you don't feel that way no I I would definitely take scarborough head of Samos because we don't know how long samuels is going to be the guy for and I think he'll be okay especially in. What if it's just this week though? Yeah Yeah I think I think still scarborough just a little bit better. Okay I mean in non PR. I think that's probably any shirt all right. Well Sam is still someone that should be a priority seventy nine percent. O.`Neil he's probably own. What about Trey edmunds? And or Benny Snell. They are maybe even after through the waiver. Wire run happens on Wednesday. You go back for them. We don't know about snow. We don't know how closest way we don't know how big of a role trae admits would have. Maybe maybe gets ten carries. But it's still I know it's a great match against Cincinnati I. I'm I'm a little concerned about. What the steelers offense is gonNA look like like? I think they could be a little vulnerable. A haven against the bengals. Yeah they could otherwise we'd be recommending Mason Rudolph but we're not expecting to have Jaju or Deontay. aww Johnson which is why I think trade which is why I think Jalen Samuel's GonNa catch a lot of passes this week you know I mean there's no he always he it's it's not a bad thought it right day. He should go ahead of scarborough and full. Pr Just on that alone. His last three games that thirteen three and five catches and that touchdown against the browns other running backs. We've got Daryl Williams if you're looking to take a longer term approach coach of course there's Jordan Wilkins and Niamh hines or the highlands is probably GonNa stay in his role as a pass. Catcher Raheem Mostert had eight touches against Arizona. Gets Green in Bay. This week Wayne Allman. The these guys are really more like backups. You know Gaughman. Obviously Barclays hurt. But he's GonNa play REX burkhead arquette. You know with the way Michelle's running. There's always a chance. Then there's said where's Qadri. Ellison who had four carries Anna rushing touchdown against Carolina. Now it gets. It's the bucks. Patrick layered may be getting more work. Hopefully for the dolphins he had six catches in the last game. But only one Kerry yeah. I didn't get a chance to watch him yet but I'm I'm sure. The dolphins have to be disappointed. What Balaj has been doing? They can't keep going with them historically bad right now he's on pace to be historically bad That's no joke killed if he gets one one hundred carries at this yards per carry the worst season. Ever I'm pretty sure I saw something. Jamie re tweeted Jay Ajayi see more of an ad or a drop right now. Nineteen Percent Doc. If Jordan Howard continues to miss time he could be closer to the AD and the drop list Mile Sanders really disappointed us. Boston Scott's not really a factor. He'll have a week's worth of practice with the team that he's been on before. There is potential for a guy to be helpful the match with Seattle Seattle at home. I don't think it's that bad. And then they're at Miami. You talk about. Revenge Games holy-moly. Jj If if Howard is out for that one as well he could he could score then. Okay I don't know if it's worth making a priority though I wanNA throw out two more names Blah Powell has two straight games with seven carries Lebanon. Bell has been banged up all year. This this is someone who get ahead of the game with with Powell and JD mckissick NPR league. He has three catches or more four in three straight games. He has forty receiving yards. In two of those three games. And a receiving touchdown it's a very you know halfhearted endorsement here but deep leagues League's maybe Jd mckissick. Although he is fifty nine percent so maybe don't drop them up all right. Let's go to the wide receivers here so the guys who were owned that a lot of leagues crowder. Parker Parker will fuller deebo Samuel. He's coming on strong Zach. Paschal they're seventy to eighty percent leagues owned sees me crowder Parker or fuller depot and Paschal thoughts. I think Pascal's when you can get rid of believe it or not and other matchups great maybe for one more week you hold onto him but T. Y.. Hilton is going to be back eventually. And that's GonNa hurt his chances of being effective or trustworthy. I think a lot of people trusted him to get your goodness at least sixty or seventy yards last week and he had the opportunities he just couldn't hang onto the football. He was tight coverage against Jacksonville. I'm I'm wondering if the steam is running out on sack Paskal who do you like. crowder Parker Fuller deebo Samuel. They're all available. Who would you prioritize? I think I'm going to take Parker at the top of the list. I just liked the volume that he's been having the dolphins game script is pretty obvious. At this point. crowder would be right by at him. I feel like crowder is a little more touchdown. Fueled than He has been. He scored three straight games. There's no denying it and what's going to happen when he doesn't score well it could still be twelve or thirteen pr. I mean he's got seventy six or more yards in five of seven games with Sam Darnold and that's pretty good parker though right right circles just really really touch. If touched. John's aren't there. You're still looking at double digit. Pr Points Right. It's good. It's a good for Parker Walker. He brought her and voice tones and yet and Deebo. Yeah so I don't know about Deebo just because you know if Kiddo and sanders are both back at some on point which they will you'd think what does that do to him so I I'm wondering if you have to take it week by week against Ibo and if that's the case are you starting against the packers. Yes probably what you're going to have to do. You just have to wait and see where the Where the forty niners with their injured guys looks pretty good? Though are you gonNA start him against the packers. Though as of now I am because I'm not expecting much from Emmanuel Sanders or George. Gidel all right and he's been playing. Well you know so makes at least one mistake again. But otherwise he's he's fitting into that offense swimmingly Two big games in a row hundred yards and eight catches for deebo Samuel. All right. Let's go to the priority list Jamie's James Washington number one in Nelson Galore number two. How would what do you think your top two priorities? My top two priorities. He's as of right now in this moment. Are Randall COBB and James Washington but cops got the Patriots. I know but the cowboys offense continued unused to role playing great. I and And I love the volume that COBB's been getting seven plus targets to the last three games. He's also been he's been combination he's been probably more like big play. Fueled more so than touchdown fueled because he scored into straight but at least nine P P R in each of those last three games. I don't think the Patriots are going to totally stifle the cowboys. And in fact I think the Patriots might try and take away the big play when it's passing downs and that means check downs for COP. Can you name the two wide receivers that have had more than seven fantasy fantasy points in non against the Patriots. Golden Tate is one of them. Yes there's no way we're getting the other one SNOT less I. She's she's Devens Sims. At a sixty five yard rushing touchdown I knew was a Washington research. Okay I don't know man that's so I was GONNA say Kelvin Harmon in but like that wouldn't have made any sense. Not that Steven Sims makes any sense. James Washington thirteen percent own. How high of a priority should he be? The bengals have allowed. Eighty a yards or a touchdown to seven wide receivers in their last four games. The only thing that slows me down on Washington is that I don't think he's a good player. I think he's okay. Okay it's it's this is why Jamie loves them and I just talked about it with him before we came back from the break but Washington has a huge opportunity in a very favorable matchup but we also know that he's got a quasi liability at quarterback he himself has dropped and can make some bad plays. I gonNA trust him as a flex for sure this week. And if you don't want to buy into a wide receiver gets the Patriots for obvious. Reasons than Washington should should probably be your top guy. Okay so other guys Josh Gordon. Aj Brown ran. Okabe's Abe's fifth for Jamie and I Dave and we didn't talk about Galore either. Oh Yeah Galore right. I'm sorry and that's another one where it seems like. He's getting another huge opportunity. He had nine targets against the Patriots through appr points. It is certainly an easier. Matchup against Seattle. He's he's okay you know I I I don't I feel more confident in Washington than I do. Aguilar in Washington more confident in Washington Agla okay. It's totally dependent on on On Jeffrey and like I said he's had three games with Jeffrey either out or getting hurt early and he said neither more targets and all three of those games in the first I too. He had one hundred seven yards and a touchdown at the Falcons. He had fifty catches fifty yards in two touchdowns against the Lions and struggled against the Patriots. But you know most of the page aged so when you look at the seahawks what you see I see a team. That's allowed one hundred yards to a wide receiver in three straight games and three touchdowns wide receivers or in the last two games including Bouchon shod Perryman and Kendrick born. And if it's an extended absence for alshon Jeffery you're looking at Al Gore getting the dolphins and the giants and the Redskins the three weeks after that so could be good and it's also going to help Dallas Qatar. Keep that in mind. I don't know Josh Gordon's third. 'cause I don't feel like he should be added unless lock it's out and we don't expect lock to that would be the only reason that's the only thing I can think of. Oh and it's the matchup against Philli. So maybe they SA- Jamie thanks. The Philadelphia is Is a very favorable matchup for Gordon. But I think he's super risky. Aj browns on this list facing the Jaguars they allow the ninth fewest fantasy points. The wide receivers Randall Cobb who Dave Exit David Cobb over over Galore in Washington with his match against the Patriots. He's been getting as many targets as they have but look at all or just did with. Those targets argued against the Patriots. Did he play on a team with Amari Cooper and Michael Gallup but it's the Patriots Galore is basically the number one receiver for his team team and COBB is basically the number three and he's been playing. Well he's yeah he's his last three opponents of terrible against the pass the Patriots and then the bills and then the bears and the rams. I'm kind of feeling it was COBB. Okay all right all right. That's fine it's fine Hunter Renfro or AJ Brown. Who would you go for? I've got brown ahead of Renfro but it's that that one's more of a rest of season speculation okay. Because I think this week you can make a good case for Renfro the jets before look. They did well against the redskins but before that they had given up ten touchdowns the wide receivers in their last three games going into the Redskins Redskin's game renfro twenty one percent. Oh yes I think I think tyrel has a better chance of putting up huge numbers. Then Renfro if you're looking for eight P.. Pr Points Eight nine ten somewhere like that. Rose your guy there are just too many other receivers that have a better profile and Renfro this week. And there's a name I'm stud you haven't brought his name up yet. I I hold on real quick. I think you I think he might be selling rent for a little short because he's had eleven or more. PR points just on receiving totals alone is at eleven or twelve points. Three straight weeks without the touchdown. Sorry just on yards and catches. Is that true. Yeah he's add five or sixty six thousand four hundred eighty eight and one. He's at six fifty four and one. Oh No missing one. Sorry he had had a four for forty to know your head. There was one game in their worry at eight his last four games. NPR eleven eight seventeen eighteen and the seventeen and eighteen once. Like you said Said touchdowns were involved and eight was against the chargers. They're great against receivers the jets anything but so that's good case for Renfro. This week well can read credit for that one atom. That's a good one thank bad. What's the name I haven't brought up dairy asleep in New York? Yeah I. I don't know how comfortable you'll be starting starting in. But we're we're getting to the point where we're talking about stash receivers and we can go on and on about the giant schedule. Packers at this is after the bears. There's game packers at Philly. Miami at Washington. Yeah Good Games. Here's what I can grab now. Here's what I noticed about Slayton. Three three games in his last six sixteen or more. Pr Fantasy points three games with one to six PBR. Fantasy points even greater terrible and when he's been great it's against the Vikings the lions and the jets those are three teams that stink against receivers. The bad games were against the Patriots and the cowboys and also the cardinals which was a surprise but basically basically he's taken advantage of good matchups. He's been bad and bad matchups. This week is a bad match up. And we've got sterling shepard making his way back it's unclear if he's has gone GonNa come back and he's been practicing so that's why I don't know how I feel about him but I don't feel great about him. I'll say that but dave look at all these wide receivers that could be stashed hardman Robinson for the chiefs. Keough Harry Taylor. Gabriel Tim. Patrick played for the first time since week. One eight targets targets and seventy seven. I Remember Liking Patrick last year. With the broncos he's he could basically emerges there number two wide receiver and potentially take targets away from van. Terrible matchups the next two weeks. Unfortunately for Patrick Bills and chargers Russell Gauge caught a touchdown. He had a touchdown. And he'd pop out in back. Right Josh Reynolds. Chris Conley Draft Reynolds at a touchdown. callback Chris Conley had a big game. Marcus Johnston not so much. But you know it's it's a fairly deep position here so I think you gotta swing for the fences with these guys. So who. Who would you prioritize? Hardman demarcus Robinson to kill Harry Taylor Gabriel Tim. Patrick Russel Gage Josh Reynolds. Chris Conley Daria Slayton. Hardman makes the most sense because we don't know how long tail is going to be out for we. Ah in a perfect world it's just a little hamstring tweak. He rested during the bye and he's good to go in week. Thirteen anyone else. I know you like Slayton Like slayton man who sued to Stash Him Russell Gauge against the books this week. I mean. He's two percent own. I know I just don't know how how much of a target share. He's going to get. I get excited about Russell Gauge I can in a fourteen team league or deeper yet but you can also also you can probably find Taylor. Gabriel in that type of a format you might be able to find you know maybe not Reynolds AB snow. He's only owned in twelve percent. Elise Taylor Gabriel could have a very nice game against the Yes for sure are. Let's go to the tight ends here and you can see if Jack Doyle's available although he didn't can have a target last game so I don't know what you're feeling there and Eric I wouldn't be excited about doyle after a target list game. So would you drop Eric Ibran. WHO LIT UP HOUSTON HOUSTON few weeks ago? For Jacob Hollister Orion Griffin. Yes do you think Ed Dixon's return if he's coming back it would impact Jacob Hollister. I don't think it'll cost hollister playing time. I think hollister's the top tight end for Seattle. And I think they use him just as much in the run game and blocking and pass protection as they do in the passing game. Okay because it does look like Dixon is coming back. This week for the Seahawks Ryan Griffin can you like better than hollister right. I do. I just think that he's a little bit more of a relied upon option. And the jets offense I mean handscroll the offense. That's having a tougher time running the football. I know that Levian numbers have been great. He scored on the ground last week but their offensive line stinks and you can see darnold lean on griffin a little bit. T has been so. I think he's going to continue to. I like the matchup against Oakland. I think Ryan Griffin's going to be solid right and just on paper like I said WHO's good or bad against tight ends can be a little tricky but Ryan Griffin's matchups are a million times better within Jacob Hollister's that being said I believe San Francisco was giving up the fewest points. The tight ends and he had eight catches sixty two yards at a touchdown on ten targets. So that's that's why it's tricky that's hollister other. Guys Noah fant Vance McDonald Johnny. Smith looks like Delaney's going to be back this week. Dallas Gutter autre Ross dwelling Kyle Rudolph was on a bye Dawson. Knox Cameron Bright. Who had fourteen targets last week? Who would be third for you? Well here's where I might blow your mind. Vance McDonald wouldn't third for me he'd be second ahead of Hollister and it's only for just this week but he's been getting good targets we've talked about. How the steelers offense is without Juju and without Deontay Johnson? I've advance ASPIC. Donald is set up to have a great game against Cincinnati. So I would pick him over oster. Okay that over Griffin. Yeah I mean. He gets seven targets three weeks in a row. There have been two tight ends or too tight ends but three total times where a tight ends had seven eight targets against the bengals. All three of them have big games. Of course they were Mark Andrews twice and Darren Waller. It's a good stat for advanced. McDonald's course he had that same thing going for him against Cleveland and he stunk but yeah I I definitely see your point there so Griffin McDonald's and Hollister hollister no offense buffalo allows the fewest fantasy points. Too tight end so that's kind of a shame. Yeah listen fant gets a lot of targets and I know that that's nice but the numbers aren't always very good four for sixty. NPR League you can take that tied. I think that's probably close to a ceiling. Let's Talk Buffalo. I don't know if he can even get that much a song by the opportunity for Godart. PBR fantasy points last five games nine. Fourteen eleven seven twelve Seattle gives the six most fantasy points. Too tight ends. They've been a little better lately but again. We don't expect Alshon Jeffery to play so you know Godart art priority this week. Is he a star. Yes yes I would put him behind Hollister but he's certainly a top twelve tonight on this week. Green Bay's been terrible against tight ends. kittles out. How would you roll with Ross Valley? I would I like I like watching Ali play. He'd see he plays with good energy. He moves fairly well. L. Doesn't run a ton of downfield routes but I think that he's a good backup for San Francisco and the targets. You can't argue with Aright and Cameron. Bright fourteen targets facing the falcons. They had that he's he's emerged as the guy after what happened with. OJ Our I'm sure the bucks our on them then another good week for streaming tight ends. Would you go yeah dwelling great. I've got dweller ahead a break. Both of them had a fan. Dan Are you dropping Jason Witten. TJ HODKINSON GERALD L Everett. Darren fails the one that I might hesitate on dropping his Everett because if he can heal up this week he could have more of an impact for the rams and he gets Arizona. Two Weeks Baltimore. This week could be tough all right so some good options there go ahead and get them. We we talked about. DSP The raiders. The jets lions at the bottom of the list for me. I I changed my order. Got Lions are at the top and I. There have been times here where I like last week. I put Oakland as a top five. DSP and I thought back to my rule of don't don't start a DSP DST if the DSP isn't that good. And then the raiders were great and by the way their defense is coming around. The lions defense is not good but they're taking on Washington. You GotTa buy into that match up. So they're at the top of the list. The browns are next. The browns would be I with a bullet. If myles Garrett were playing rounds. Rounds Falcons raiders. All right are you sitting the Patriots and the forty niners this week patriots of the cowboys and the niners get Green Bay. I am sitting the forty niners. I'm double checking my rankings. To tell you where I have the Patriots this week I have them seventh. I have like like there's a perfect example. I've got them one spot ahead of the lions. It's a great defense and a tough match-up at least they're at home versus the Lions Defense. That stinks on the road. So you might WANNA roster to. DSP's this week especially if you own the forty niners. Don't drop them. But you might want to get a the second one young way coo nick folk and Mason Crosby or kickers and that is it you can have them there in Jamie's column and that is it for the show. Thanks Dave happy to help. Adam thank you Jamie. Thank you all for listening. No we do now. I know him off.

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Ep 104: 2020 AFL Grand Final Preview

Lace Out AFL Podcast

1:01:43 hr | 3 months ago

Ep 104: 2020 AFL Grand Final Preview

"After eight months and have everything, you know one guy's icon off line for that one frame issue, It's happening this week up at the Jabba the Hutt this Saturday night 7:50 p.m. Richmond Tigers take on such a long cats to wind the 2020 AFL Premiership. And that means these single gray box has got a preview the game. It's so much more to talk about because we can't be formal when it comes to this stuff on your host Chris Peppa the co-host with the most they're J-Dawg. The number nine thousand ranked triathlete for heat age group is here in the house. We got so much to talk about listeners. We love you viewers your fantastic get on the chat be part of the show dog. It's just how you want your foodie each and every single week J-Dawg. Let's get into a mate last week. We had to ripping preliminary finals your team Port Adelaide wage, but we haven't even spoken about it with kept it offline. How did you pull up? Was that kind of I was like Hey, I was reasonably drunk by the time the game started and I was even more drunker by the game at the finish. It was actually worth losing a pre-owned by less than a goal or in this case a goal just sucks. Like it just generally sucks. But we spoke about it on Tuesday the area where I thought that we would probably win the game from being the Midfield having a better men pure just a second half Richmond played much better. So that's all there really is to it. I mean the last quarter even though I was only six points. They probably should have been through all those up. Can I say the two games were so different? I could not take my eyes off the game on Friday night for almost. What was the six goals kid? Yeah and a couple of gimmes in the last quarter. Let's just say cuz you know good old trigger razor re given freebies now. I was glad you know it. Was not there might it was there. It was not there The Purge alarms the back man's best friend and he went straight there were two players. Let's get on with something else. But anyway, what I wanted to highlight was that it was an absolute best choice of a game the rain came in. Robbie grey if you if you don't get everybody who's listening to this right now, give me a hell. Yeah, if Robbie grey gives you a chance when he plays finals football. It does integration. He just gives it a trickle. He just chickens your perineum. I know I talked about it. We we spoke about this before but you know, we've got cardi B talking about WIP Robbie great does the same Like you know that you probably don't do that. No cardi B. Well, I'm just saying everyone else who's under the age of seventy will know what I'm talking about. Or you may make people with hair. Well, that's not me. Yeah, exactly. Right but no it was it was a belter of a game and then you turn on the Sunday. It's Saturday night game. Yeah, that was a bit of a snoozefest to be honest. Thoughts are really knock jalama cruising along a cruising. Yep that you know was it was if you looked away at the size of Life Planning Group compared to brisbane's playing group. They just think a moment you were bodies. Yeah, and I just smashed them. I just you haven't K-pop and the players who you thought would dominate were far from even getting close to that. Don't you get bored is overrated young? He's young enough breaks creation. What's what's three years mean? I've been saying for three. Oh, hi everyone Thursday. They do. You know what you do the bar an hour after you kick a goal and you go after you take a mark not dropping them ten meters out. The last quarter when your teammate is done everything possible to set up a goal. Oh, well, at least we got within a kick of a prelim finalists team unlike yours. You'd like to get within my voice. We had an Irishman cost us a prelim back in ninety-seven. We even born in eighty-seven was just I've heard it all now true. If Jed was flying the Pamela wins, the geriatric folks coming out the gym Mini Mac. It was Les Mack, you know, and by the way, we got a new segment happening on Saturday. We're dying because we're doing a it's a. It's not a. So if anybody turned in on Saturdays, yeah, how do I got the race the racing the first tip came in from Lemak? Yeah. Okay me a second one guy for the multi-point now good. That's me on the third. One moment. Good. Yeah. Yeah, would you blow at 10. And lunch? I'll have you listening. There's more than a 10. Yeah a lot. I'm loaded up big time. I had a massive fiber on the multi, but every week Lemak has decided. I had a bit of a chat to him. He said look, I'll give you a job. See every single week. So we're going to have lace outs right out. So whatever it is, we'll figure something up but we're going to have racing tips every day of the Spring Carnival for you because it says how you want you to tell you what your racing tips lights out. You're exactly right. So if you look at the two games, we've got your long we have Richmond playing it's going to be a cracker of a game. I'll see what's going to let it down that was Queensland the weather. Yeah, it's got to be about 31 degrees. Yeah, apparently, it's got to be slippery as Julius. I'm not a great spectacle for football Night Football as it is not football can only be played in Melbourne because you get the goodness of the beautiful weather but it's crisp enough not to get the jury aspect of it off too. Sweaty up there. It's going to be sweaty held how much he'll sweat. He's little giblets head going to be tipped. I tell you how sweet is going to be it's going to that ball is going to be slippery on. Then any mile on Fatone straight into Ireland and Irish are can handle Rick would not be a slippery as it will be Saturday night like slippery a lot. So we're off of a chat about the the guy in coming up this week. Before we do that. Listen, massive roommate coming out of Queensland that have you heard this The tomahawk has been isolated from his teammates. Apparently, he has a sore throat currently the whole family's had it. Is the tomahawk being chopped down with a slight covid-19 infection. I'll tell you what, I mean updates shaima call. Jalon had to Forfeit o v a shame home speed. You're really love and a bit of Geelong. Actually you really do you want your love the Richmond Wynn? Oh, oh God. Who do you want to Wing? Jalamo Richmond, right Faith wasn't about my hairstyle. This is what happens when you can't go to a barber in three months. Yeah, look at that price getting a mullet. I am I have to I took a bigger headphones on to keep on the side of my head just like blowing it stopped yet. You've got no hear this song that's called the Trump. It is I'll show that's going to look I just think we should probably just replay the premium platinum and make it a series best-of-five. Maybe that's the truth. What do you think? No, no. Look. I'm going for Richmond because I'm going for July. I'll put you along. Yeah, well going to ask you later on throughout the show. We want you to tell us on the chat page or on the Facebook page who's going to win? Boy, how much and who's taking Norm home? Can I place Amazon you can play this game as well, too. So who's going to win more how much would imagine obviously and who is going to take the norm Smith medal. So on the chat, I want everybody took your selections who's going to win. Hi how much and who's taken or moment? Then we'll come with our selections at the end of this even Nina, righty? Oh, okay. So Tom is in a bit of trouble. Hopefully it hasn't got the covid-19. Place on what it is all I tell you about it is why don't we just listen for what it is? The fraud paying his back the fraud. Hang right? I have felt. You might seem stupid decisions. But that has happened today is probably the dumbest decision. I have ever heard when it comes to the great game. That is the AFL Grand Final. The fact that ice body is going to be presenting Richmond the IFL Premiership cup if they win is nothing more than a disgrace Ian and curves is going to be delivering it for jalang which is magnificent. He was a club a club games record-holder until it was beaten by Corey Enright played many many games for Victoria or you know what he's done it off, but tell you what Richmond on the coattails of Ash body is nothing more than a disgrace. It is just you telling me that they could not find one Richmond person in Queensland off. You don't really should have got to you know, they should have gotten they should have got the guy who owned the Kebab shop that said this tax and Callum Jones got themselves into a fight. They should he would have been off. Nash body representing the cop. Yeah, it's going to be someone of note and I think they're going to be riding on the coattails. What goes said is it mean that Jerry Avila is going to go and present the women's champion of the Australian Open next year, of course, not so don't go ruining it for a cheap. Thrill. You've already stuffed it up with the Brownlow with lucky Neil giving himself the middle God. That was an excellent, Bass. Are you going down this track? It's not been a good week for you AFL not a good week at all. You need to pull your finger out. You better have some great great entertainment this week. It better be good. It's very amazing. The freaking seek is better bath time. That's all I've got to say on that fry pans done. Wow. what is so your issue with the fact that she's not football-related tinycam on you telling me this is this is the Pinnacle of our sport. Okay, we get laughed at so much everybody in RL of the stuff. We do grant for more body body. Come on. You look at the greats John Kennedy Bobby Davis Bob skilton, if all given the beautiful cup over to the coach and Captain wage to rise up into the air. I haven't seen my club do one ever. Apparently. It's really good and your cheer really loud when it happens. Yeah, but no, it's just not right because she's a fan. I'm tipping a lot of fans out there. It's not right Jamie. I'm sorry. It's a disgrace once I'm looking for I'm I'm I don't really mind. Either way. I probably would have preferred a fully It's gotta be a football person of note of that club to hand over the you know, obviously the thing it could have gone from Blight. He's up there in July coats in the foreground bottles. other than Richmond Hey could do Rich Evans. That's what I thought. It would have been somewhat of a note from the IFL whether it's a you know, Ash body channel seven couple of whack two weeks ago when they were showing bloody body T. Every time. I remember that they couldn't you know, they should get they should get the Love Machine Mark pepper. He could present the norm Smith the norm Smith. The norm Smith is a norm Smith Middle off shows. It's like the Lord Smith. Nice look forward to me, but we're not taking dogs my free. Did you take this ctcss, Three funny? Yeah, we turn was that about my hair know know about that Lord Smith. What was that Lord Smith home and say mister. Anyway, locksmith will be dusted Martin Portsmouth. Like he's he is not dead of winter saying the hospital and tire issue tips. I'm looking forward to it a little league know we got Shepherd playing, you know ship it up. Yeah, they sank Toronto mode and coming home. And as well, that's nice. They're performing with Brisbane. Indie pop favs Cub Sport and Indigenous Italian Electronica Rock Gym. Oh, yeah, no known well-known. Well lead singer from a certain leasing, huh? Yep, you're going to be singing that song. More is that just too nice to be so good. So it's going to be it's going to be a good. Well, I don't know it's going to be good Saturday. It's going to be a bumper set. It's great phone all day Saturday night. We are courtesies. You're going to have a full day to just get yourself set up. Yeah, they're going to slow slide into your seat with a full a ski, you gotta watch the Cox plate. It goes straight to the AFL and fall. So you come rent or not Grant Farm allowed to use of it. Just this, you know, not in Melbourne not not in this year's got to be awesome Cox plate off into the Grand Final. Hm it's kind of got wolf. Now we've had some people calling in prestia the tigers by twenty-seven prestia Jalan by Thirty. That's the Martin will be lured Smith by the name of it targets by hundreds you dreaming. Let's just move off that because there is so much to talk about just lost my camera from whatever they'll go free or tow truck. I want to talk a bit of Trades because that has come on Big Time in the last couple of days. First of all most. Can I just say this free agency is going to absolutely foolish this game up. Come on Pep's be smarter than that. No, it's dumb. Free agency is going to ruin the game. Yes, how can a club whose head the Coleman medallist potentially bring up last year's, medalist in the office. It's not right mate. Yeah, it's good to see the whole, you know equal equalisation is really working out well. Well, I think that I think you know, you're going to lose your mind over there. So they're also in apparently to Ben Brown a big way as well or three of them a long way. So they got currently with the money. They're freeing up. They're going to get brown Cameron and tomahawk in the forward line and endanger Tu pinche when he wants to slightly top-heavy with knowledge. Okay, I'm only asking McDonald type of fruit. I'm just joking question. Is Jay dog up for trade in last two first-round draft picks. I'm hoping to split them over this year and next year, but we're willing to work something me up is to is the co-host with the most I can't shows nothing, but I'm like I said, I'm likes, he's Have You Been Just hi, welcome to life. I'm glad lame. Excellent, you know because Michael Woods not two years time run. I will not be in Formula One anyway, so let's keep talking about like you're talking about this. Jeremy cameras left them. We spoke about John Caldwell populating as well. Where does it leave? The giant? One of the foundational players came here? Because I know I know you don't like I don't like it. I know you don't like free agency, but he's been there for ten years. It's it's it's it's fair. We were caps. So he's going to fit in the cat of July. It's the the problem with it is is that the lower clubs who probably need it more than anything. Just keep getting left out. Yeah, and and that's where and that's where it's wrong. So the people who do go to those clubs going for the retirement package to superannuation the top that up where the good players only one of the go to the clubs. I can understand it, but it shouldn't be that way. I'll be saying it's his day. If you're in the top four months you might the prelims you shouldn't be allowed shouldn't be allowed to participate in free agency the next year. Whoa. Okay, I'll said that since day. I just admitted to like sit and digest that let that one marinating. So basically what that would mean is that your Club Omni Richmond Brisbane Angelo could not participate in free agency this year. I want to apply out they're going to have to trade he mean so that's just like getting for nothing, but I can think of Court we've got probably four or five players who are on the cusp of ending at this season or next season there last so we might want to play to come in. You just can't be part of free agency use too bad. Okay, right. However, our listeners am tempted on but years, of course, you're watching Fox it lemax giving it a hundred percent. Look at that. That was a hundred percent on the 80% your records on a hundred percent on the market off-road yard Sunday nor can I say I was a very very very happy man. I think all three of us were very very happy man met you and the AFL. Congratulations to Lucky Neil vifl Brownlow Medal legitimate Brownlow medallist, Mitchell and touching In a can top, you know, you're talking about the IFL having an asterisk next to themselves those two guys have the biggest Asterix next to their name. I'm sorry. All right, but can I just say also your main coming in? Second bogey? Fantastic my man Peppa tracker coming in third with Jack Steele. It was just nice to see name brands getting the recognition cuz they were basically the three or four that they thought would virtually Dominate and to see the votes go that way was exciting. Yeah, but it also isn't it interesting that you said that you know, the number one Rahman. Didn't didn't get a sniff so cap wasn't competing against much. Let's be honest. There are just goes to show the umpires actually do recognize if you do something around the green actually going to do something around the ground not just when it pulled up every four or five times because that's all he does off and dreadlocks do not win your medals and I'll a whinger club best-and-fairest but even the ferris now, I wish I had time to write a run sheet today just to stop you from ranting about all yeah. Oh, yeah. I choose. I've got another ride fairly soon. You'll need this one after the leases for the all the listeners out there just watches who is watching. I'm on fire tonight. Yes, I'm gonna camera on you and you just go for it. Right? Mate. No, no, no choice is actually this is for all the listeners and all of you as right now. If anyone out here has the AFL Brownlow Medal PowerPoint that normally comes out the day after with all the Wags. And then their outfits in the comments, could you please send it through cuz none of us have actually received it. It's been a little bit disappointing so far that it's taken to choose day for it's usually in the mailbox by 10:00 10:30 on a Monday morning. So if you've got it, please send it through please but it really appreciate that. Okay. I very very good point this one a free agency tax on the top floor. I do agree with that. I definitely grabbed it good that same as for Flags to lean back on vs. Brian Wilson. Well, look, I think Brian Wilson has quite a fair bit of money quite a number of Grammys wage is part of the Beach Boys think he's got a lot to live up to me. I don't think he really cares about the meno Sam Mitchell when he's flying around the world making a million. Every single week we don't say someone podcast again. Just tip. Just get a guy's the crystal Cafe. He was going to get a share your thoughts and my feelings on the great game of life like they didn't did it kind of hurts tonight. I'm just going to sit back and just start cutting some some some some things for Christmas trees. I don't know. I don't what do I do? Cuz I'm just trying to clear off or not. I'll start I started hiding my desk. I'll start putting things across here. You just tell me when you want me for tonight. Okay, you just you just let me know when you want me because I'll be around. I'll be around the office and you just let me know when you need me right? I'll just stick it in an agent now, you know, what else needs some tax done facades. I can just run some things for you. Just let me know cuz I'm obviously not needed tonight. I'm just I'm just here click on microphone turned on background noise if you need me. Yes, we do know this is live. This is live. Just how you want it. So pick where where do you want to go? I'm just wondering. Where are you going to know? Cuz I'm drawing a Mac. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just trying to drum up a where you're going tonight. All right, so I figured I don't we started AFL Grand Final. Yep, then we went to Joe's body rents. Yep, then we went. Yep. We went across to a month brought in West Rockport past body. So where where do you where do you want the Brownlow boom shakalaka off? He's on fire how just the way where does it snap take us right now? What's the next takes us? I think it's our time for our grain frontal. Rave you of the great game that is happening this Saturday. So I'm going to be doing jalang. Jamie's going to be doing Richmond. We're going to just the coin toss heads or tails done. Fantastic. You bring we'll start with you. All right. So what we're going to do is we're going to we're not going to do who's going to win it why we're going to be looking at the five players that we think I lift this week for to get their team over the line. You're starting with Richmond. Would you like to do you all yours first or do you want to go left? Right left? Right you go yours first and I'll go mine off you're going first you want to time we'll do one of the time sure. Okay, my first player that needs to lift this week in particular is Marlin Pickett. He has been a player that had the greatest Possible Grand Final first game last season, but I'm just noticed. He's just not quite the same level and will need to be against that Jalan midfield. If he doesn't have a great game. I think that jalang has a play that I could exploit. Oh, she's low-hanging fruit on that one. Start light and Reebok. All right. Okay. So the first place that I am going to go with is Recently because he's actually been playing some pretty good football over the last couple of weeks. But he's going to be up against big Nick who who was almost the best player on the ground in the last half last week and buy like anybody who said that was based on ground got no idea about football cuz audience he was fired from it far from it. And I'm going to get the hate mail coming through on the chat. He was from the best the neck one them that game with that last quarter was Sensational and if he has a similar sort of game this week, it's going to be very very difficult for re Stanley to to perform it as well. So yes the place he has to play good football, but he was lost We Takin Max around the ground. Here we done what the old we don't want the old Rees-Stealy. He was getting dropped at the start of the year. We want the retailer has been playing the good food over the last couple of weeks. So he needs to have a very very good game even worse break. Even with that strong Richmond Rock. Very good. Very good. My next player that I'm calling out after you've lived a little just a little just a tiny bit is Liam Baker bake the baker. I just think that you're going to need to be on your best game to stop the jalong Midfield forward rolling positional changes are fully and Baker and it's probably going to have bought a pickup. and he could he go to I don't know who will pick up Gary Roman. Maybe you might get him through there. Probably might get danger potentially depends on who jalang'o with your that for their line-up, but I just think that that the back line and and Liam Baker particular may have a bit of a harder roll this week than what you had last week. Okay. Well, you mentioned Liam Baker. I'm going to take it one step further. I'm going to talk about a guy who does have a Premiership under his belt but has a habit of going missing on a grand finals. And that is Gary Roman. Okay, cause some controversy up there in the Hubble not going to go into it. Just get on the forums. You'll be able to find out a little bit about that. But he's played some pretty good footy over the last couple of weeks. He has been kicking goals home, but it has a habit of not doing anything on a grand final day. Okay and a couple of years ago. They had to dig up the MCG to see if they could find Gary Roman cuz he went missing the day before. He's bit of an impact player. Gain, school, he does bring the pressure on yeah, but he can be a bit flaky when it comes to like I said that last day in October. So if he plays well along to be a message just if he kicks these two or three which he has done jalong are a very very big show if they don't it's just going to be putting more pressure on the tomahawk to be kicking. His it back. So Gary Rowan is my second player who will need to have he'll need to lift got an old style. To make an impact. I like it. I like it a lot. I liked it. I liked it so much. So I find it fascinating that you have chosen re standing as your person that needs to lift. I've just gone is complete opposite in the rack. I'm going to be there and curves, you know the make even though I'm and look at somebody calling me. P o g it's not because he needs to live but I think more than ever he is super critical to them winning this game. And if he doesn't give them the Silver Service that he gave him they gave his team last week in the second half. Richmond's Midfield could be in trouble and I say that because they are like thirteen or fourteen francs and clearances. Not the Richmond our clearance dominant winning team, but I still think that Toby nankervis needs to give his players Silver Service because jalang are not sure of having great midfielders who can explode from those packs. Well, well, well well well, okay. He's more like player that has to have a has to have an absolute starring game and this will be the most controversial one to come out this list. Display already has two flags. He's got he's got less hair than you Jamie. Potentially. It could be his last game of AFL football ever and talkin about the little Master. Okay. He was insatiable last week. He was that goal that when he first out of the middle of slaughtered at 4:55. That was the little G ablett we've known for many many years, but he's pushing thirty six. He needs to kick at least two. To make an impact and cause some trouble up forward. There has been times this year where I know whether it's age, but it just hasn't been able to find that rhythm. Jalan we know that I don't have a lot of scoring a lot of genuine scoring options. Okay, they're probably rely too much on the tomahawk. They do rely on Gary. Rome do rely on another guy. I'm going to mention in a moment. But Gabrielle, but they need him to keep these couple. Okay? Yeah can't go through the Midfield as long as you would as you normally would he he's not home. He still has a bit of a speed but not as fast as he is and he's not much of a lockdown tackler as well to. Yeah. So if he doesn't kick, he's couple it's going to like I said put more pressure on the players who struggle in life forms, and then my next number which is a disgrace is another for this is also another Premiership player who has done much this year as well too is averaging less than a god time. Yeah who doesn't lift once again. So most of mine are going to be four words because that's where that's where I see gelones biggest. He'll be yeah, so my third player is G ablett I thought of that. Absolute style best player. I've seen it sort of David's watermelon. Jacovich, really not just just telling jacovich fair enough money and my fourth player. I'm going to put on that list as that's a bit. It's a little bit harsh. So I fully accept that original people are going to come get angry at me. But that's okay. We're going to broadcast you get a shape the fourth person and only because I know because I do hold this display in particular high regard and that's DeAndre Christian all the meatball and it's hard because he has missed a lot of quality this season. So I fully appreciate that his come in and he has picked up but I know your game last week against your mob. No, I know and that's what I want to preferences previous to that though. He was up around that sort of 95. Ninety two point nine hundred points per game. In in in fantasy points, so you know, and I know you don't give much Credence to that but that's still is a measurable staff fantasy points. I still measuring kicks marks handles Effectiveness all those things that you may get points up there. All right. We'll see one moment anyway, so he was up around the upper and the mid-to-high 90s for a while. There has come back yet and he's sort of sitting around sort of the thirty six fifty. So that's a big drop and I think that he has to continue his upward trajectory for Richmond to get that mid mid five minutes walk. He did last week against animal cuz he really did pretty good guy. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, that's your fault. I've got my number four is actually number four at all. These number 408 already played for the dogs. You want a grandfather with them back in 2016 jump ship. Went over to the cats looked Alehouse. I don't know what I don't have these have added really a good game ever and he's to he's he's being over at Jalan. Yeah, and you want to talk about fantasy points yet twenty-five last week. Yeah. Yeah not knowing disposal. One kick one kick right hand balls, 35 meters gained. I could throw the football further than that lemack could long jump longer than that wage. What bracket Columbine but that's a different story for another day. He didn't do anything last week. I don't think he did much the week before either. And he's he's on pretty thin ice. I reckon if it wasn't if his name wasn't Luke dahlhaus and it might be on an OPEC something random Lemos. You may not be playing this week. So he's bring him because he's not lying tackles. He's for defensive pressure is not that much and I'm not again if he has another slow day off if all of the Midfield the mid half towards Ford pocket is of this jwang team have a bad day. It could get very very ugly because that back line of Richmond is going to run off on the front and center bulb salute Dallas. You need to pull the proverbial digit of your peacock and butthole and have a good one this week. Otherwise, you're going to be walking down with your head between your legs. And by the way, it's true. It is Luke. She has Luke Outhouse looked all else. The all right who's your final my final one? And it's going to be no surprise. You thought I picked the low-hanging fruit before peps. This is a general a lot of hanging for Jack riewoldt. I just think you need to let your time champ your lungs backline. They love the high floating ball. They like to do the zone defense. They do it very well off led expertly by Harry Taylor back there. Jack riewoldt has just had a bit of a stinker of a year. I caught a stink of a year for Jack riewoldt 20 28. I'm thinking I'm thinking he needs to just lift he needs to lift. That's it. I haven't seen it. I called him a game proper. Girl that for a little bit and this is the game you can is there a biggest look in the IFL than Jack riewoldt. He is a shell of his former self. And if any Richmond supporter says he's playing his role. I don't know what role that is because all he does is Taps. It doesn't take Mark's he nut. He's not dangerous at all. Yeah, two years ago three years ago. You'd be like get on Jack now let him do anything out the ground cuz he doesn't he's not hurting anyone on scoreboards at the moment on EarthLink home at the moment. Like we just look at it from ran heading to where it was at the last Point safe on a prelim final like, you know fantasy points. Again, we're talking a drop of basically, it's almost dead fifty points line. That's a huge drop in airport. And what is actually doing on the field and people go? Oh, yeah, as I said playing a role Taps assist all that second consideration. So if it's like if you just doing a couple of TAPS in December, but he's not marking. It's not kicking. It's not getting goals. So he's Apple. It's not quite there. Well my last more or less one. That's a great Fall Out Boy on the way, but I recognize that one's going to top it up because this one's going to be the difference. I think lucky Henderson 83rd Club off at one stage probably say about a year ago look like his career be in the toilet and he's had a bit of a Resurgence in his playing probably career-best football if you can actually say that but he's going to be here to pick up Jack all in G on Friday and on Saturday night and if he doesn't have a game out of his shoes, it could get very ugly very quickly sought we saw it when she did last week paying allergies it on on a dime. Yeah, you did the week before was well to you're going to have to be right on him now. I don't know who I don't know. I think Henderson will go to him. Maybe I think Tyler will go to Jack just because the Aging super Styles will go against each other. Yeah, but he he's going to have to be on his on his metal. Yeah, they can't let they can't let him do with What what Tom Lynch does I don't know. Otherwise Lindsay will be getting all. Okay, I'm going to go that we if if Lucky ends and has an absolute mare, let's let's could be up to 5 and we know five is a bag and a bag of when you think will win. You know. Yeah, he's not going to be my tip. Let's talk about the next thing the weather as I said you Lou to the top of the show. Yep. I like two decades ago. We spoke about this. Yep. The weather is going to be wet greasy slippery. Like we said we will have an impact on either side just like your board shorts after a 40K ride Jamie Thursday. It's going to have a massive effect on the game. Now anybody who's ever, you know actually played the game or 377 of them? We'll know that if it's it's it's going to be hot. It's going to be slippery trying to be slimy mind you these are true pretty big building teams. They're going to absolutely punch the living crap out of each other, which is going to be awesome. Ya White. One thing I have noticed though that if the ball stays off the ground and it did happen happen on Saturday night. The ball stays off the ground. It's not going to be a slippery through the fingers and you saw what danger was doing last night and the week before? Yeah, he was just popping him off Jack took one last week was popping him off. Yeah, so maybe early on and once they sort of get get their their Measure of Faith. I don't think it's going to pay much right? I just want to discuss what a bit of a shootout. I just want someone just want I want to gain it's going to be exciting. That's all I want. That's all I want. I think yeah, you're right. That's all I want. I was wondering if my grandfather's a traditionally Ricky pretty ordinary. Oh, yes, I'll text to it takes to inflate teams that go back and let's go back to 2018. Anyway, that was a ripple that 119 890. Let's go back to nineteen eighty-eight. Let's go back to two thousand what you got we could go back to last year. That's how bad it was. All right. So I think the weather's going to take it but the monitor the games are short of the Sixty Minute. I don't like the 16 minutes games are over too quick. I'm looking forward to going back to normal next year. All right one question for you who who is or will do it now because we've got some we've got some coming through danger for the norm cats by points. Nick Hogan has come in here saying danger Norm Smith cats by 17 Duncan or got mate Paco. You can't lead your bets mate. It's either one or the other, right? Can I make up your mind cats by sixteen? A lot of people going for the cats? The only people go for Richmond Richmond supporters. I think that's a bit of a feel. I think people think Richmond of a little bit too arrogant a little bit too up themselves bit to Comedy Club before the game. Well now unlocks anymore. Well, what about your dad's tonight? Yeah, something like an announcement about the 2008 Grand Final very very shortly hamsters this guy and does this can't have the risk of becoming cuz it's two teams already one a couple of premierships and been pretty dominant. The last ten years. Does this game run the risk of being a little bit like the 2011 Premiership the one that no one remembers the Collingwood one. It was 2010, but that's okay. You get two thousand ten thousand get there. And I know I think they'll remember it. I think if it's hooked his grandfather was that people forget people like I think people are I think it's a bit different because it's not even if it was in Melbourne would be excited for it to remember last year. Everyone was well, there's a big big sound from home. Most of the town There's a town of the mighty Giants. I'm just glad you mention that I'm glad you mentioned that that was just pumping last because it was a story to it g w e No payment before the New Kids on the Block. Yeah up against the Richmond running trying to go for their second Premiership. Yeah. What's your point? What's the story this year? It's dead. I think it changed trying to create Unity. Against team who have got a dynasty nothing, cottage industry. They go on for maybe seven nine eleven, but they haven't done any other last ten years how many finals in a row? You got people potentially playing their last game people playing their first final can a team that has promised so much over so many years. I guess the team that has that much self-belief and basically think that they are the kings of the Jungle. Is it the felines versus the tiger? It's it's oh my I'll tell you what when you're sitting there and that national anthem starts playing and your in home security is 6 bourbon. If you don't have a bit of chubs. With a bit of excitement you shouldn't be watching the game on I'm really looking forward to us. I just I just hope it's not going to be a bust. I just hope it's not going to be a bust and I don't think it will be. Okay. These are two very very mature at football clubs and very mature football teams who stars on every single line. It's a game. Oh, just you know, you got caught in Cochin prestia Martin vs Sellwood, Dangerfield Duncan. Million Dolla versus Boston you've got recently. Mrs. And curvis a blood vs Baker half at versus Palm Beach one block out. You know what? I mean? It's just everyone I'm excited for it. I'm I don't know. It's it's no secret though. Yeah. It's no secret that Pepsi. These probably two of the most hated team other AFL supporting people. Australian why is Top-Up, we're not obvious enjoyment. We don't want to see the successful always be successful. Yeah, that's so I told my my my question is he dead people down like Richmond now people don't like Hawthorn. So is this is is this? I don't know. You said people are saying all right. So simple it's a simple as this everybody wants your longer win, except the Richmond supporters month. That's that's a simplistic. It's Roscoe. You said it perfectly we are jealous. We are jealous of what you've achieved and that's why we can't lie for you to just blow up in your face after your you know, Comedy Club routines that you pull out before you run out every single week. No, he's not. He's not correct is not correct is not correct thing. So I reckon is going to be 200 a pet his grandfather already fought matter or even buried for Hawthorn when they go for the 18th in a row. You don't care. It's just a day just to enjoy the great game of you. Got a real life one stage. He's here. Look what we would win him going to get he well. I mean, you know, it's just a pretty much if you want to win perhaps it's worth noting issue. You gotta speak to any little you gotta speak to any Liverpool supporters and you speak to a Liverpool supporter and tell them that they're total last year. No, it's not even a real estate. And if you if you don't wake up with your teeth knocked out. You don't even you're not paying genuine Premiership is a Premiership not it's not a little season. Perhaps we should have been calling her up easy go. Look at you sitting right so angry so that comes out of your mouth. If I do this show for three years. Now, this is actually one of the funny is actually a funny comment, but it's actually a very good comment. This is what came this one came from Ross Bartlett. Everybody laughed at Benny Gail ten years ago when he was on pretty classified saying that they want to have three premierships by the end of twenty twenty seventy-five thousand members, and I remember when that happened and what was his car talking about. Are you looking to back down? And argue with them not only have seventy-five thousand because they have pets. I have goldfish. I think I have like you can have like your deceased people can be members. So I don't think it's a genuine hundred thousand. They might be said 11:25 feelings just just goes to show that that you can buy the AFL off doesn't really certainly can. Well when you when you're virtually play every game at home with any other clubs have played sixteen games in a row at the MCG Salon the other crop club with the AFL the real crap Road Rules. So this so long so what's your what your grandfather plan says? I know that everything is still locked down and everything's still happening. So what your plans look I'll probably I'll probably set up the package. They're out onto the porch. In the backyard and the pagola. Yep. Nice can of have a get a bottle of Canadian Club Ginger put on the surround sound my friend and just watch the guy meme. Can I speak Spanish? Then you can drink and what not have any coconut. I'm not just go straight, right? Oh, no, I really don't know what you're going for a walk and catch up on my watch watch on the phone having to walk with the selfie stick. So you're watching the game with love machine or Trevor or something and no no. No, I'm I'm take it easy for the kids to watch the footy. Can we give you suggestions to some people who maybe want to watch it together during Zoom parties a lot of people doing? Oh, yeah. What are you doing on the chat on the Facebook page? Tell us what you're doing for Grand final day off also be watching the car to play no doubt about that. Who's your tips? I know we're going to racing fans here. Who's your tip for the Cox plate? Who and why and how much because I tell you happy Wings Easter on Wings off. For Martin power in know. I mean just reverse it is a Ramos. I love I love the the the virtual racing the the law at the e x a lot check no. No. Hay track sidetracks. I know a lot like when they do like mountain power versus Wings the greatest cost played em, that's it. That's it. Yeah, I'll do like that. You know what happens when I see that come up on the on the screen, shaka. Boom shakalaka, not even go with a bit of birth. He's on fire once a couple of things also want to quickly all Arcadia Queen. Here we go, Arcadia Queen wage money on it. Okay, Acadia Queen is the tip for this week. So that'll be part of our our double UPS Maltese if you've got a multi for this week off Ross Bartlett your your multi from last week. Remember he's multi which was The war horse into Tomlin chicken the first goal. full night food lost in Camelot by two lengths tips. Yes, Mike. I'm actually actually have got a couple of things for you or what go for it. I've got some direct messages last week from our listeners. Okay. So the first direct message I have to bring up with you and it's also for the listeners and it's been coming in for the last two years as I cut off. I've watched a lot of their games. I've come to realize that I believe that they were fake Contender always towards the top of the ladder But ultimately not good enough to play in the big one. I said to countless people especially this year that the cats are no good enough crumble when the pressure is on. They only beat the teams they're supposed to be for struggle against the good teams and I'll be honest. I've never been so happy to have been completely wrong about something. The question is have you ever been or have you ever got it completely wrong? What was it and more importantly, can you admit that you were wrong about something? Sport related or what? Oh, you can go anywhere you go. You don't I don't I don't turn this into a body open mike session so you can just keep it real hot level and bit of fun tips. What about the time when you used to drive around a pink colored EX-L with no shirt on? Can you admit that you got that that the Optics on that role? You thought you looked good, but the Optics on it were not good. No, that's through rose-colored XL. No, it was a whole nestra and it was burgundy the wrong. Actually, yeah, I did. Or when I first met my wife when I was first going out with my wife. I don't know why I thought it'd be a good idea to wear an AC DC belt buckle. I got that one wrong. Someone's giving me a bit about what about all those games you want long sleeves off. That is so bloody Paco. I need to go to the chiropractor every week after we played because I held that team up for choosing you now at my friend. All right, Jamie was yours thinking LeBron better than Jordan who is LeBron is still better than Joyce. I will get that one roll. I will start get rolling that I thought the Giants Richmond last year. We have five minutes of the grand finally got that now. She actually think you and I both got that wrong where you got that one reminds. We're going to be around 4 a.m. Is when you have issued. All right. Next question on the next one was a pick up on something last week that come through so it's been it's been about a month early segments. Yeah. The question was put about Michael. It's a story. You know that question. I asked you last week. And this person was fully aware that you would bring up the gym signs story. But what about the last fifteen years surely? No one comes close to the story of with SARS category-b rookie turn the BNF winner and integral part of the Grand Final team. That's a pretty good story bring up Jeep stolen because my last fifteen years in the last fifteen years the Marlin. Sorry would you say that's a story? No, one game jail story almost wins the Norms me. Lock, isn't it? It's that that's just lock story. It's all right, but it's not the greatest story. Liam jarrah from Melbourne comes to Port as a game goes up north and west chop. Someone's head off. That's what our story of redemption. I think the Jason McCartney story when he came back after the Bali bombings was fifteen years ago in the last flight out. I don't have any anyway, that was just that was just a couple of things that bring it on. Actually. I got one for Mike Pike. There's one for you. Okay, what's that story? He was the Canadian. He played rugby for Canadian can actually channel. In applying in the swans and played in a Premiership team as their Rahman wage is actually a pretty good story. I wrote about you. Tell your mate. I don't know if he's on the chats tonight that yeah, I'll see your 15 now. We're going to 15 all dead smack any any player in that team or sneaking fall into a flag pick anyone that because we created. We have to talk about free choice. It's free agency again the way we got we got Pick 3 in the draft pick up a tracker for freely happy with that one. So they'll other questions that I had pets any questions from the listeners that they have found a few minutes that we're going to see here and just to the fact any questions that you have for the forest before we wrap up, you know, we're still waiting. Like I said a couple of minutes left we want to find out who is going to be home. It's for the Cox plate or who's going to win the flag. And who's going to take out Norm this week? Like I said lots of come Dusty Tycoon do human race ten. That's that's another one. I put that in your multi. All of these is going up on the lights out Race book page on Saturday morning without me back. I'm going to be spending probably the ground Florida. Maybe maybe my brother. He's a he's a rich Benson frou-frou not waiting. I was pretty good. We are pretty good here in Regional Regional Regional everything else. Oh man, you can actually do stuff I can do stuff I can do so that I might do that because it's a Saturday night, which is kind of good because you know that I'm a big fan of not Grand finals. Are you calling a 14 years? I do want it. MCG the pocket the pocket the Gabba has the MCG grass and it how exciting. Excellent. Okay. I don't care about two playoff teams rankings. Sorry, the people of his friends. I just blew this with everybody finds out. Oh, here we go. Love that premise shipment. Jelly encrypt Rockaway. I can't argue with this. But I think it's time to almost finish this episode up my moon absolute belter again. All righty, so I'm going with your long so he's off for this week, right? I'm going with Delong. Yep. Was 17 points. He's going to be close other things going to be blown out and I'm going to go a half backman to win a reckon. Down with actually, I'm going to go I'm going to check em, Guthrie. Oh and got three made just made the Australian Squad. He's got here you think about a Dusty Johannes? Dusty again sets As a matter you stick it up yet. And if you raise a long sleeve, like all great football was a long-sleeved. I reckon Kevin got three. So you've heard of right now ladies and gentlemen can go through and the cats doing by 17 points. Okay, I'm going to go for the tags for the win. I think they're going to win it by twenty six points and my Norm Smith. I'm going to go I'm going to pick a left of field. So I'm going to go for You said a half back and didn't you back at that? They always it's got to be someone who's going to get the ball a lot and he's going to run he's going to need somebody's going to stand out. I'm going to go shower right boat. He has he has been quite good. Very good. I think someone I think someone on the board pocket images going to be in and around the game if it's crappy, it's sporadically and just apply a bit of a bit of a just locked in a little bit like I did against them like like what we did last Friday night against credit. He will be in and about in around that ball when it matters, which is the fourth quarter cuz we all know that Norma Smith the one in the fourth quarter. like Dusty last year So I'm going to try about okay. Well, I'm going to get a like I said, I'm going to go through your gunbelt and Lamborghinis going to Chapman wrong back next week. We're going to be back next week Thursday next Tuesday nights for real final episode of the season a grand final recap our highlights for the season your name one last thing. I want to fry pan if I could the choices for months of the year and four goal of the year. I want I want that exciting with it. But Pepsi if you let me actually put a wrench it together today instead of you just going off car for the first twenty five minutes of the show. Yeah, maybe I could we could discuss that George. Did you have a rent cheap? It's not know. I didn't exactly so I listen to have a great have a great great formal day look after ourselves through the right thing by Dayton Andrews get on the beers. All right, we want you to get on the beers have a good time. Enjoy yourselves will be back next week. My cameras dropped out. What's you name? And all I can say is let's let's go out with a bit of Mike Brady up with the greatest final song. Maybe lucky footage a dog. I like that place out. I like my finals like turn on there. Davis knows off off off and let you off listening to my latest episode if you haven't done so already make sure to subscribe right and leave a review on iTunes on your host Chris pepper and with Jamie Wallace we give you your footie birth. Want it ASAP Ferg?

Richmond AFL Premiership football Premiership IFL Melbourne norm Smith Midfield Grand Final Giants Cox plate Jamie Jack riewoldt brisbane Richmond Tigers Liam Baker Jalamo Richmond Facebook Neil vifl Brownlow Robbie grey
53 | Solo -- On Morality and Rationality

Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas

2:05:19 hr | 1 year ago

53 | Solo -- On Morality and Rationality

"Hello everyone and welcome to the mindscape podcast. I'm your host sean carroll and today we're going to have another solo podcast that is to say an episode of mindscape with only me talking i think when i started mindscape which was very close to one year ago were i think we're close to the anniversary. I'm not sure what it is but i had in mind. I'd be doing more for than once every year so episodes but the truth is. I just had too many interesting people to talk to so i've had wonderful guests coming to my horizon and <hes> it's. It's been a lot of fun talking to them so there's no regrets there but i knew in a mix in some more solo episodes so i made effort to record this one the last one of course i was very different one in the sense that i had written a paper on wise. There's something rather than nothing for a scholarly collection of essays and i could basically go through the arguments in that paper <hes> and explain them so it was kind of figured out already it was it was completed sensible work today. I both want to be a little bit more controversial but but also be a bit more conversational this talk about something where i don't have a complete polished argument so it's more of a conversational off the cuff ruminating ruminating about things trying to get <hes> some thoughts into people's minds including my own so thinking out loud as it were but i will be a little bit controversial so i want to talk about what it means to be a good person or in slightly more formal language. How should we think about morality and ethics what is right what is wrong wrong in particular. I'm naturalist. I don't believe in god or the supernatural so how should naturalists think about morality of course i did organize is a whole workshop. A few years ago on moving naturalism forward got a bunch of people together so rather than the idea there was rather than argue about oh god not existing which we all agreed on by the construction of who was in the room. We start with god non existing. We ask ourselves. Okay what next you know. There's various korea things that happen. When you're religious for his roles that are played by religion and one lives had we replace them. There are a lot of issues facing naturalists how how to find meaningfulness in your life. The issues of free will and consciousness another programs within science that are not yet complete but clearly one of the big issues is morality. How do you be a good person. What sets the standards for right and wrong. This is something about which naturalists disagree and i think it's good that naturalists disagree in the sense that we are looking for the right answer and we haven't yet founded or at least some of us might have found it. It's like the interpretation of quantum mechanics. Some of us might know the right answers but we don't agree three amongst ourselves so there's more discussing to be done as i am discussing this as i'm talking to you right now. Recording this podcast we've just had a wave of laws being passed in multiple states in the united states dramatically restricting access to abortion or criminalizing abortion abortion worship is of course a classic moral dilemma kind of problem. People come down on different sides of it for very different reasons. I think a lot of people i think i agree with the argument that says that a lot of people who oppose abortion rights oppose a woman's right to choose do so because they like like restricting women's choices because it's simply a tool of oppressing women and expressing their individuality and agency but not everyone <unk> opposes abortion for those reasons <hes> i i certainly know people who simply in good faith because of their religious beliefs think that abortion is wrong. They think that there's something that happens. When <hes> an egg is fertilized by sperm and that's when you become a person and that person deserves writes it's this is <hes> again not necessarily the political reason why abortion is a controversy but it is something that argument you can make what should naturalists. Let's think about this. If you don't think that there's any thing mystical or supernatural or religious or spiritual that happens at the moment of conception then you have a whole different set of issues in front of you and concerning whether or not abortion should be legal on the other hand. I do think that most naturalists have the same answer to that question. That's not a hard hard question for naturalists a single cell even that sells a fertilized egg most naturalists would not attribute met many rights too right so most naturalists are going to say that women should be able to get abortions at least for a certain period of their pregnancies so what about the heart problems there are plenty of hard problems blames the death penalty <hes> what we should do with end of life how we should distribute money in society what is fair and so forth trolley problems are famous moral dilemmas emma's that we can wrestle with so. I wanna talk about a couple of things that are a little bit more a little bit less obvious. I should say for the naturalists i wanna give my general feelings about them which are admittedly themselves provisional. I'm not trying to talk about things which i think i know the right answer and rather than simply focus on broad principles in abstract reasoning. I want to bring things down to earth with a couple of examples that people have strong feelings about so picked two examples. One example is vegetarianism. Syrian ism is it ethically ok to eat meat to eat animals and animal products. This is something that has come up both occasionally on the podcast and also on on my ask me anything special podcasts on patriae on if you're a patriotic supporter you know that every month i do and ask me anything. All supporters can ask questions and i tried to answer answer as many them as i can see how i cleverly worked the existence of the patriot in there. If you want to go to patriots dot com slash on carol or just go to the podcast web page. You can find the lincoln be a patron patron. Yeah be a patron yourself <hes> so okay i mean i'm not a vegetarian but i understand. I think why some people would become a vegetarian. I think it's a very very good example of a moral dilemma facing naturalist. It's not obvious whether we should eat meat or not so we'll talk about that and then the second issue i'm going to talk about is exemplified by the intellectual dark web. This is something that you might have heard about <hes>. It's a group group of people sam harris jordan peterson ben shapiro other people. Many of them are bloggers and podcasters <hes> and they have a certain take on things that i don't really agree with. I'm not sort of an intellectual dark web sympathizer <hes> in some ways i am and so you know when i started the podcast people were asking me whether i was becoming a member number the intellectual dark web not many people not people who knew me very well the particular thing that they talk a lot about in the intellectual dark web are issues of social justice racism sexism and so forth with the angle that the people who are social justice warriors the people who are spending a lot of their time arguing. There's too much racism awesome and sexism and transphobia homophobia in our culture. We need to do something about that have gone too far and particularly they've gone too far in squelching debate eight and being countered to the enlightenment values of open discussion and free speech so i wanna talk about that explain why i am not very sympathetic with their overall attitude attitude so hopefully between having a whole bunch of committed vegetarians disagree with me and a whole bunch of intellectual dark web supporters disagree with me i will have annoyed or pissed off a large swath of the listenership here. That's the goal early used to get people thinking. I hope that i am thoughtful enough and open minded enough that even if you're a little bit annoyed i try to give us some interesting things to think about like i said my particular ideas here are not completely settled but it's important that we have these conversations especially especially about difficult topics especially about things with which we disagree with each other so let's go <music> before examining these examples in any detail. I wanted to say a little bit about how i personally think about morality again. I'm not a moral philosopher myself. I am not an expert in these things. I've read a little bit. I've talked to people. I care about the issues but i'm not going to be giving you the complete expert opinion on the entire landscape of moral and ethical theory. I'm going to talk about how i think about it and invite you to think about it yourself elf chime in in the comment sections in various places on the internet etc roughly speaking. We think about morality or ethics the rules rules by which we live. There's two kinds of questions we have to talk about. One is ethics itself the rules or the guidelines for how we behave how we should behave save and then there's meta ethics how we derive and justify what those rules are so if you have a rule well you should aim for the greatest good for the greatest number. That's part of ethics or morality but where did that come from. Why should we actually aim for the greatest good for the greatest number. That's as part of meta ethics and to make things way over simplified in ethics. I find it always useful to distinguish between two different approaches the two ethics or morality monica distinguish as an expert would between ethics and morality sorry about that <hes> there's many different approaches to ethics morality but two particular particular examples do a very good job of illustrating kind of the space of possibilities. There's day on technology and there's consequential ism day on policy is saying saying that morals come from a set of rules and if you write down the rules and you obey them then you'll be in good shape whereas consequentialist think it's not about this is what you you should do or you should not do. What matters is what. The consequences of your actions are unsurprisingly so utilitarian who thinks that you look for the greatest good good for the greatest number that there's a number called utility that you can attach to different things that can happen in the world and what you wanna do is add up that number and maximize it that would be a typical consequentialist whereas conti in for example the money will come suggested the categorical imperative. We says that you should make your own individual actions such they could be generalized to universal principles. That's more day onto logical approach. Both of these approaches in my have you have serious problems with them. <hes> they lead us into sticky situations day ontological runs into the problem that well. It's the same problem that every bureaucracy runs into right when you have a bureaucracy is typically well meaning you wanna do something like have rules for how we drive our cars on the road but the problem is is you have to imagine that you can figure out ahead of time what every situation is in which those rules are eventually going to be applied and eventually come up with situations nations where there's an obvious right thing to do and the rules are telling you something different. A classic example for contains is the idea of lying not even ensure what context self believed about this because i think that there is controversy and i'm not an expert but there's the idea that you should never lie because if you were obeying the categorical oracle imperative then lying's not something you want to be generalized to an action that everyone should take but what if you're hiding a refugee in your house and a murderer wants is to come in murder them right. Should you tell the murderer that the person hiding from them is in the basement or should you lie and say something else so it's easy or not it is easy but at least very often possible to come up with a parent counter examples to the day onto logical rules that people generally suggest when it comes inconsequential ism of course it depends on your version of consequential ism utilitarianism again is the is a standard example so the idea that you have have something called utility some number that judges or characterizes measures how good things are going and we can somehow add up that number and that's the thing we should try to increase or to maximize. I think sounds very intuitively compelling or plausible but it just doesn't hang together once you actually put it to work in the real world <hes> there's one famous example of a conclusion which you might not like the comes from utilitarianism in fact it's called the repugnant conclusion by philosopher derek parfitt and roughly speaking it says if you think that most host or any or all human lives have positive value that just to exist gives some positive utility or whatever it is you're trying wind maximize then very quickly you come to the conclusion that the morally right thing to do is just increase the number of people no matter what else right you you can always do better by having more people around <hes> you could maximize the population of the world which sounds like not necessarily actually right thing to do when i'm writing my my <hes> recent quantum mechanics book something deeply hidden. I considered this puzzle in the light of the many worlds interpretation. I said if you were a naive utilitarian. I'm trying to think about many worlds would say look every time i branch the wave function of the universe into two worlds if i think that the amount of utility in each world is positive then it's clearly a moral good to bring new worlds into existence since i am increasing utility so i invented a machine called q. mad add q. u. m._a._d. Which stands for quantum utility maximizing device and the quantum utility maximizing vice q. mad basically just takes a spin and bounces does it back and forth as fast as possible measuring its value spin upper down across perpendicular directions and every time that happens the wave function of the universe branches into so you create many more people they all have positive utility or at least in aggregate positive utility so you are the best person in the world in terms of how much each extra utility you're creating even though literally no one in the world knows that you're doing anything and you've had no effect on the lives of anybody. That sounds wrong wrong right that violates our intuition now in the case of many worlds. There's a simple fix for that just like energy conservation. You can say that in fact the utility not that you add up should be multiplied by the wave function squared by the amplitude of that branch of the wave function squared so then when you divide the universe into even though there are now two universes the total utility doesn't change at all but more generally is that kind of thing that gets you in trouble with utilitarianism our moral intuitions. I don't necessarily fit easily with the idea that there is a number that we should maximize out there which we call the utility now. You might say you know who cares. Here's why do i. Why should i care about that. What difference does it make if my moral intuitions come into conflict with some systematic version of what is right and what is wrong long have a moral system if i figured out in my mind the once and for all correct rules of ethics and morality than the fact that my intuitions or natural natural impulses go into conflict with that should be completely irrelevant. My intuitions might be wrong. The system is right right. That's a little bit of a sticky he situation though i think the origin of coming up with the idea that we should maximize utility or the we should act in a way that other people should act and so forth all of these easily come from our moral intuitions. We don't pick these things randomly that there is some place that they originate from and i think that our moral intuitions are at so let let let let's think about that a little bit more carefully that means moving to the meta ethical question right. Why are we justifying these rules in the first place place and again. There's an enormous amount of categorization and specific theories in this field that i'm not going to go into but we can contrast very roughly realism versus anti realism in morality right and that basically gives the definitions might expect a moral realist thinks that moral claims like this action is good or this action is bad are real real in the same sense that tables and chairs and atoms and the expansion of the universe are all real there objectively there roughly speaking whereas an anti realist either might not believe and morality at all or bleed there is morality but somehow somehow it's subjective that morality is a human construct that could be different could either could have been different for different societies or could literally really be different for different people in the same society so this is a very good question a very deep question and one that is nowhere near resolved as far as i can tell within then the philosophical community i think that according to a famous survey of different philosophers and their opinions about different naughty philosophical issues the phil paper's survey <hes> most philosophers our moral realists. They think that they're really our moral rules that objectively exist in some sense. I i personally am not at the very very least i would strongly claim that whatever moral strictures are whatever moral guidelines our moral. Oh rules whatever they don't exist. They don't have reality in the same sense that tables and chairs have reality. Maybe there's some different sense of reality that they have. I would be willing to contemplate that possibility but they don't have reality in the same way. They're not part of the physical universe in precisely the same way again. I'm completely presuming for all of this discussion. That naturalism is correct. I cannot appeal to god or any supernatural being to tell me what is right and what is wrong. Even if i could that runs into famous problems that was there were pointed out by plato and others but for me. I just have the physical universe that's right. The universe is what exists. That's what's real and in that universe. I don't see any moral stances and immoral rules is e stuff obeying the laws of physics now you may have heard on certain court corners of the internet that we should be able to derive moral rules also from the universe. The idea of deriving ought from is what you ought to do from what is actually happening out there in the world old and i'm also sympathetic to this in some sense right mean my my best glib argument that you should be able to drive off from his is is is is all it is. I just said that the universe exists right. That's what is real and there's nothing extra that israel other in the universe so if we're going to talk about 'oughts about moral rules where else would they come from from but from the universe but from what actually is but sadly that doesn't work there is another option which is to say that you can't derive moral rules from anything you can then have moral rules. You can suggest them. You can talk about them. You can debate them and you can try to persuade others that they exist but they're not being derived from in something deeper than that so it is it literally. I know that you might have heard. I had a debate with sam harris about this. <hes> sam doesn't like to put it always in the in the terms of deriving from is but he has put it that way sometimes and i debate and big just because it's a logical impossibility to derive from his there's deeper and more <hes> careful ways of saying this but basically it. Is you know as in computer science. You have garbage in in garbage out in logic you have is in is out. If you make a bunch of premises to your deductive argument that are all about what does happen happened in the world. You cannot have a conclusion that says therefore this should happen in the world. There are a number of famous attempts to do exactly that but either they will but always they cheat. Let's put it that way either. They cheat by using ambiguities in natural language to make you. You think that we've gone from is to ought or they. Smuggle in some extra assumption which has ethical power an extra assumption about what ought to be and say well look. This is so obvious that clearly you accepted. That's what sam harris tries to do. He says you know certainly we shouldn't. I think that the moral thing to do is to maximize misery and unhappiness for anyone well. Maybe we shouldn't. I don't want to maximize misery you for everyone but that is an assumption. That is not something you derive from. What is out there in the world so i just want him to state that. That is an assumption because is then we can debate whether that's the right assumption to make the thing i disagree with the idea that it's not an assumption at all so. I don't think that you can get moral. Oh rules just by being out there looking at the world. The world doesn't have moral judgments. The world doesn't care what you do right there. We'll just obeys the laws of physics. If i give you the wave function of the universe it evolves over time going to schrodinger equation or whatever future physics we someday have. There's no judgments. They're the wave function auctioned. The universe doesn't say oh that was a mistake evolved in that way. That was an ethically bad practice that you just indulged in it. Just goes on uncaring unfeeling feeling we human beings as part of the world once we described the world at a higher level of the human world the manifest image of the world where there are people in it and those people think and reflect an act we people judge the world we attach moral meanings meanings do certain actions or certain things going on out there in the world but they're not inherent in the world itself now. There's clearly a lot of other other ways to be a moral realist. Even if you don't derive ought from is in some literal sense there's different ways of justifying the idea that in addition to the physical reality of the world there are once and for all objectively true moral standards. I'm not gonna go through all the different ways to do that and sort of <hes> argue against all of them. I'm just going to put forward the idea that i don't think any of them work despite the fact that this puts me in the minority of working philosophers who are much more educated about this. There's also a healthy minority. <hes> <hes> that agree with me about this. I think that a motivation for searching for moral realist justifications meta ethics often comes from the idea that we like certainty right it goes back to descartes and many other people goes way back before that the idea that we want absolutely once and for all certain certain groundings for our belief they car was interested in our belief in the physical world will be now think of as empirical questions. Are we sure we're not being fooled by some malevolent demon but it's very common that you really just want to be able to say nothing. You not simply that you think that was wrong what you just did but that it is objectively wrong. It's the same kind of impulse that people have about aesthetics that not only is this song good in the sense that i i like it or i enjoyed her. Other people enjoy but objectively good. There's a sense in which it is simply better once and for all and you can't argue against it so i don't believe either one one of those stances certainly again if you compare it to how we think about science how we think about empirical questions about the world if you make a statement like the universe is expanding that's when we can judge by going out there and looking but crucially it could have been different right. We i can imagine a universe which was not expanding we can imagine iverson is expanding. We can imagine that's contracting. We can imagine what that's static so we have many different possible label universes and then we go out and do observations collect data to decide which of those universes we live in. That's just a completely different procedure than and we have for morality very few moral realists think oh i can imagine many different systems of ethics and morality and i'm gonna go out indu experiments and decide which one is true. That's generally not how it works so. I think that we need to be comfortable to get ourselves. Happy with the idea that morality may be something important to us but it's constructed. It's constructed by human beings. Just like bridges are very important for human beings and their constructed by human beings as well or the game of basketball is constructed by human beings once constructed it. It's there but it's not inherent in the universe itself so this point of view which again i'm not going to do justice to all the details of but you can find it online this goes by the name of guess what moral constructivism moral constructivism is just the idea that what you and i take to be ethical principles are made up by human beings not made up necessarily arbitrarily there might be good reasons to make up some rather than others but ultimately they come from within us as judgments not not from out there in the world or objective principles of reasoning or logic or anything like that. It's important here to distinguish between moral constructivism awesome and moral relativism their closely related but different. They're both anti realist versions of morality but a relativist would say you have some sort of community you have the society and that society comes up with moral standards and then what is right and wrong is judge only relative to what that society believes and and it's sort of a quietest view of morality in the sense that if you're not a member of that society then you don't get to have an opinion right you don't get to judge if you think something is personally personally repulsive but it's going on and that society over there and they think it's okay then you don't have the right to say anything whereas a constructivist doesn't say constructive is simply admits the reality that human beings are the ones who construct moral rules but once we've constructed them constructivism mm-hmm. Lets you be judgy of other people. It's not a quietest point of view at all if i have my moral rules and i've come up with them for what i think are good reasons i can apply apply them and i wil and do apply them elsewhere and i can use that as a justification for acting in the world for making things better even if other people disagree with me now what i want to emphasize here is that this picture of morality given by constructivism can sound a little wishy washy can sound like well. It's not strong enough for me if i if i still bought into this picture where i want absolute metaphysical certitude for my moral impulse for my moral rules in some sense than the idea that it's just made up by people might not sound robust enough however would like to point out that it is nothing more or less than what actually happens in the world. We actually do come up with our moral theories in this particular way way. I think that there's this slightly not perfectly articulated fantasy that more realists have that says that you know if i could just find the objective moral rules then when i came into disagreement with somebody else in the world we can sit down over coffee and i could convince them that they were wrong because i'm objectively exactly right and they're therefore objectively wrong so i don't think that's actually ever what does happen right. I mean you typically would not succeed. Sometimes maybe would good good for you but i can certainly imagine situations in which you would not succeed in using the pure force a reason to convince someone that they should obey your objectively true moral guidelines whereas moral constructivism says yes. I come up with some moral rules that i think are the right ones. Someone else has come up with some more rules that they think are the right ones runs and we can talk about who's right and who's wrong which ones should be enshrined in rules and legislation and laws and things like bat and sometimes we might just disagree in a profound way not be able to overcome that disagreement. Guess what this is. What really happens in the world. Moral moral constructivism is just about bringing the way that we fear is about ethics into line with the reality of how we practice ethics in the world now having said all that i talk a little bit about these ideas in the big picture in my last book and it's really focusing their on these meta eta ethical questions and i argue against moral realism in favor of constructivism but then you want to go from that meta ethical stance morals are things that we construct to you an ethical stance okay so what are the morals we should construct and in the book i more or less punted on that because it wasn't the point. I didn't want to say okay here. Here are the rules we should use. I made some vague gestures in that direction but that was not what i was trying to do. What i was trying to do was to set up the idea that we can live in in a way that is both moral and intellectually fulfilling in a naturalistic universe so it still leaves us the job of coming coming up with the right moral rules. So how do we do that and you know. There's a long complicated process. Obviously there's work being done here. I think that there's two crucial components opponents about how we should go about constructing our moral rules are ethical guidelines number one. We reflect on what our inner moral impulses impulses are right. We human beings are not blank slates. We are not devoid of moral judgment until we read or first philosophy books. We have feelings uh-huh about what is right and what is wrong so reflecting on those feelings means accepting and recognizing the fact that sometimes our moral intuitions if you like are not coherent are not compatible with each other this is part of the job of moral philosophy to take hours to inchoate rambling moral intuitions and systematically turn them into something that is logically clear that says very definite things that do not contradict each other. This is the kind of thing that we try to do. Using ideas like a trolley problem thought experiment right the famous trolley problem. You have trolley headed to kill somebody. Sorry a trolley headed to kill. Let's say five people and there's a switch that would move over the trolley onto a different track where only one person die. If you're a day ontological who says you don't want to take an action that would bring harm to anyone then you do not flip the switch because that's a rule then you're not allowed to do it. It's not your action that is literally early hurting someone whereas if utilitarian that says clearly we should have the smallest number of people dying than you would flip the switch no problem and there's no right or wrong wrong answer. These are two different impulses that we simultaneously have and the job of moral philosophy is to sort of reconcile them somehow and immoral constructivist. I would say there might not be a right or wrong reconciliation once and for all there's no objective standard but this is the task we have before us and the other thing we need to do is to communicate. The first thing to do is reflect on our inner impulses. The second thing we need to do is to talk to other people. Ask them what their impulses are ask. Their theory of morality is again. There's no guarantee that if we do sit down over coffee and communicate with each other and share our moral intuitions and try to reason together third to come up with a mutually agreeable moral system that we will succeed there could be fundamental irreconcilable differences that we never get over so we figure elsa political way of dealing with that we have value diversity and pluralism in a liberal democratic society for example so we have to figure out a way right to get around that but it's crucial along the way to actually ask people what they care about what they think is right and wrong not simply to assume that we can logic our our way into coming up with the objectively right answers and i think at the end of the day <hes> i'm a little skeptical and this is this is a very very tentative position on my part so don't take me <hes> too much at face value or to seriously. I'm tentatively thinking that there isn't a simple maxim that sums up the right way that i believe we should be moral some. I don't believe that there's anything quite as easy as the categorical imperative or the greatest good good for the greatest number that will ever work. I think that we human beings started out as sort of a gangly bag full of moral intuitions values. Tell us if you want to call them impulses that we have in some of these come from biology evolution some of them come from our upbringing some of them come from society some some of them come from our cognitive careful philosophically logical reflection on what we should believe in what we do believe and at the end of the day we're going to have a bunch of rules of thumb for how to deal with different situations and we might grow and get better and not even get better than maybe that's a little bit of a morally early realist language sneaking in to my rhetoric here but we evolve. Let's just put it that way. We can change over time and what we think should be the that the a balance between different values values like you should be kind to each other. You should care about other people. You should make people. Happy should not insult them. You should respect their personal space in their liberty and so forth a whole bunch of values that we can all talk about <hes> and judge which should be different different levels of importance in different particular situation now is that unsatisfying is that not quite as pristine and clear as you would like especially for us to the kind of theories that we get in math or logic or physics sure it is unsatisfying if that were your standard but maybe that should never have been the standard. Maybe we should accept the idea that morality is something that is always a little bit in flux that were aiming tord it without actually being in it that we will ever achieve right literally. It's about the journey rather than the destination and we can talk to each other and we can surprise ourselves right. We can say oh yeah you know i used to think that was the right thing to do but upon reflection after talking to people after growing in my personal experience and learning things now i realized that i think that that was wrong and that's perfectly good way to live so with all those in mind. Let's think about how to actually take that philosophy of right and wrong and apply it to some sticky situations that we actually run across in the real world. The first test case i wanted to talk about is the notion of vegetarianism. Is it okay to eat animals the ethics of being a meat eater. I do think that this is a topic where sure i'm a meat eater. I'm an omnivore if you want to put it that way but i think that most omnivores or unreflective about their nervousness. I think that they grew up that way. They figure that's fine this life and that's how it is. I do wish that most people who ate meat gave more thought to the ethics of it whether it was right and wrong of course this is part of the motivation i had for moving naturalism forward that i don't think that naturalists or people in general give nearly enough brainpower forethought forethought to the moral and ethical values that they live by and so i respect vegetarians who become vegetarians for ethical reasons. I think that makes sense to me why you would do that even if i don't end up being in agreement with it at the end of the day so what are the arguments for not eating meat for becoming a vegetarian dan. I think there's two broad classes again. As many little sub arguments here not gonna go into all the details one broad class of arguments in favor of vegetarianism mm-hmm comes down to the environment to more or less practical issues centered on the practice of agriculture in our actual world. I think it is a true statement and a very real concern that modern agricultural practices are very often harmful to the environment we cultivate huge herds of cattle and pigs and chickens and sheep and lamb and goats and this stresses nature in ways at that are very clear <hes> these various forms of livestock create methane which is a greenhouse gas which leads to global warming and also the creation of farms often involves deforestation right tearing down or burning down trees and hurting the environment that way and i think that these worries are perfectly good worries. I completely agree with these arguments but i think that the conclusion of these arguments is we should change the agricultural practices practices. We should disincentivize harming the environment. I don't think that these are arguments for becoming a vegetarian. I think this is an example where believe it or not not i agree with dick cheney. Our former vice president <hes> in the philosophy of this dick cheney was once asked about conservation of energy not conservation of energy and the physics sense but conserving energy in the sense of not running the heater or the air conditioner in your house or driving too much and things like that and he said you know as far as he was concerned concerned. That was a matter of personal virtue not a matter of public policy and i think that's right. I think that you know whether or not you let the house be a little bit cooler than is comfortable and wear a sweater to make for that. That is a matter of personal virtue. I think the collective behavior of many many people doing that well. You know what it's not that many people doing. It doesn't really make that much of an impact on the world where i disagree with dick cheney. Is that there. I believe there should be public policies that do create a penalty for hurting the environment so if you wanted to argue for legislation to charge agribusinesses money when when they do things that harm the environment because they're in some sense poisoning the public commons in a very real way that i could very much get behind but i don't think that you you or me or any set of individual people choosing not to eat meat has a big impact on that so that's the way in which i disagree with someone like kant right. Who says you should act act in the way that if everyone did it that would be the right way to act. I think that if not everyone is doing it then it doesn't really matter. You know if it's if it's not otherwise ethically bad the question is how do we affect important relevant effective social change. It's not by individual virtue. It's by legislation or you know sharp strong demonstrations or something like that ways to manifest the public. Weld is various ways to get things done me not eating hamburgers. I don't think is really doing it so the other sets of arguments which i think are more relevant for the current discussion are are the more purely ethical ones about eating meat the idea that roughly again roughly speaking because there's many variations on this theme but we assign remain imagine magin assigning and objective value to life whether it's human life or animal life or whatever and we might draw the line as to where life is there is not important porton. Some people would count plants about insects. What about viruses or something like that okay but there's some group of living beings. Maybe just animals may be conscious creatures in some sense events that deserve to not have their lives ended right unless that's true. I'm saying that is a potentially relevant interesting. Moral claim in that case killing whether it's human beings or animals is simply wrong one way putting this is why would you think it's okay to kill cows and in pigs and then eat them but not kill cats and dogs and horses and other animals that we choose for pets so this is where you know the rubber hits the road in terms of thinking through our ethical rules that we're going to construct as good moral constructivist <hes> should we judge it to be wrong to kill hill animals in and of itself after all we judge to be wrong to kill humans and you might have thought back in the day before naturalism came along well. There was a reason why killing human was bad because there's an objective value human life given by the special place that humanity has in the world either either because of god or because of something slightly vaguely more <hes> more vaguely mystical in some way. We don't have that anymore so maybe the question we should it'd be asking is not. Why is it okay to kill cows. But why is it wrong to kill humans right. We don't have that objective moral standard that we had when we were religious we have to do something nothing different so as immoral constructivist i would argue that it is wrong to kill human beings but not because at some objectively absolutely true reality reality of the moral world <hes> not because of some quasi mystical attribution of an unbreakable right to live on the part of human beings. It's wrong because we humans generally think that killing each other is wrong. We have that moral impulse. We have that value. We have that intuition the killing each each other is a bad thing. If nothing else we human beings generally don't want our selves to be killed right so if i didn't want myself to be killed and i was completely neutral on killing other people the communication part of the way in which we come up with our moral rules would say you you know i would go around asking other people. Do they want to be killed and most people would say no so we would agree to come up with a rule. That's all right. Let's not kill each other okay. That's is the kind of thing that happens both in the real world and in the theory of moral constructivism of course. I'm sure that you're thinking out there is some people will disagree there. Are some people think that that it is okay to kill people. John wick clearly thinks it's okay to kill people in certain circumstances <hes> less fancifully plenty of people who think the death penalty is okay. There's plenty many people who think that there are just wars where you can go out and kill the enemy so there's different ways of dealing with that right. I mean there's you need to sort of think a little little bit more subtly about when it is okay and is not okay to invent this rule about not killing people and when someone is just a sociopath. Someone just wants to kill people. We we lock them up. We put them in prison at least once they have killed some money or they have done some violent act. That's how mature societies deal with this problem. We've invented a rule title and those who stubbornly insist on violating it are punished in some way that is again both what we do in the real world and i think we should admit it is what we're doing. It's not a matter of some objectively real rule out there. We construct the rule and then we enforce it so if that's the case if the reason and we don't like killing people because we don't want to kill nor do we want to be killed. What do we start thinking about animals and i think that that personally my feeling animals are different now. It's always tricky to directly. Draw the line between what's an animal to human how where we different from each other okay. If you listen my podcast with adam rutherford you know how subtle that distinction can get but i think that there is nevertheless a distinction worth drawing <hes> obviously human beings of eaten animals throughout history animals eat other nature is red in tooth and claw aw that's not an argument that it's okay to kill animals or that. It should be okay. We should construct rules. That says it's okay. It's just a preemption of the idea that not killing animals is somehow natural right. The natural state is that everyone gills everyone else <hes> or they don't care because you know they're <hes> not. I'm nervous right. Most animals actually don't kill other animals but it's not because they mind it is not because they invented a law or moral stricture against it is because they're not interested. They don't get any benefit from it. Where animals do benefit from killing eating other animals. That's generally what they do in human history so we we are face face. We need to come face to face with this issue that we're inventing the rules. What rules should we invent. There's a couple of things that matter to me here here when it comes to how animals are different and they base it basically comes down to the communicative part of how we invent how we construct our moral rules rules and a particular ability that human beings have to conceptualize the future in certain ways <hes> parenthetically. I should say of course anytime when we try to draw a line between humans and animals. We might imagine humans that are that. Are you know injured or handicapped or disabled or or have genetic defects or something like that where individual human beings might not fit into this categorization <hes> that we have but i think it's perfectly sensible to say that we're we're choosing to draw. The lines is around. The human species compared to other species in the world so i think that's just a footnote. We're going to get into in any detail. What i'm trying to do is ask what is the distinction in between animals non human animals set and human animals and again another parenthesis here other people might disagree and that's okay and we can talk about that. That's that's cool. We should do that. I have friends who will not eat animals or creatures with certain advanced nervous systems right. There's a famous rule that you shouldn't eat <hes> <hes> things with a face okay so i'm drawing it between human beings and elsewhere. I'm trying to explain why and again number one. There's the communication issue and number two the future trish you so let me explain what i mean by that <hes> the communication issue. What i mean is that we can't sit down with animals and discuss moral laws right we the part of the inventing our morally constructed sorry yeah or constructed morals is that we talk to each other and ask what each other want and and we do this in highly abstract ways. There's some ways in which we can imagine talking communicating with animals. That's absolutely true but there's also unmistakably a level of abstraction. The we human beings can reach that the animals can't we can draw up contracts acts right and it's actually <hes> i'm realizing literally as i'm saying this that the boundary between these two points i'm trying to make is a very fuzzy one the one point about how we communicate and the other about how animals conceptualize the future the point being that you can certainly see animals know about the future right. I mean they worry <hes> in certain circumstances. Things are going wrong. The thinking of the example i have in mind is that when my cats ariel and caliban think that we're going to take take them to the vet they get upset they run away and hide right when we pull out the cat carriers in a way that is obviously antecedent to putting them in the carriers and then getting in the car going the vet. They know what that means. They know that the cat carriers indicates something bad is about to happen and i think that you know cats are not the single smartest others that have of animals out there so there's no question that animals can conceptualize the future in some way but what's important to me the idea of conceptualizing the future in a hypothetical goal way in a purely abstract way the gives us the ability to draw up mutually agreed upon rules and contracts. You can train an i animal. There's no doubt but what you can't do is say all right. Look you know if you do this for me tomorrow. Then next year i will do the following thing for you. That's the kind of thing that as far as i know based on the science and the neuroscience that i'm aware of could be wrong about this that <hes> other species other than human beings are not capable of so the cat's might run and hide when we pull out the cat carriers but when jennifer myers talking about oh we need to take ariel and caliban to the vet next week aerial kalaban do not react to that. They don't know that it's going to be this bad thing. They can't quite conceptualize that future event right. I think that's important because i think that that a that idea of how we conceptualize the future is really secretly at the heart of of why. I think that killing people is wrong. Okay and again. Keep saying this over and over again all this tentative and you know. Maybe i'm wrong so let's keep keep thinking about it together but the example that comes to mind again from quantum mechanics book is quantum suicide. You may have heard of this thought experiment it max tag mark popularized it although other people talked about it if you believe the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics so you believe that when a macroscopic macroscopic system observes a microscopic system that the universe branches into multiple copies and there's different things going on different measurement outcomes happening in each of those multiple copies imagine the following experiment that you basically do a quantum measurement with like a geiger counter or spin or something like that and you hook up a machine where if the measurement measurement comes out one way you'll be instantly killed. Instantly is very important because you're not suffering you just ceased to exist right away as much as technologically possible and any of the other branches of the wave function where the other measurement outcome was obtained. You're still there. Nothing happens to you okay. The idea is that in some sense and take mark himself doesn't say this is but other people have said this. You shouldn't mind being put through this thought experiment roughly speaking because there's now two branches of the wave function where there it was only one in one branch. You're alive. You have nothing to worry about in that one and the other branch you don't exist. You're dead again. We're presuming naturalism. There's no life after death or or anything like that. So why should you mind. There's nothing there to be minding. There's no you there to be upset that you got killed. Okay so we're putting putting aside issues that you know you. Maybe you have friends and they will be upset. Remeasuring isolated loner kind of person okay so. I don't think that this logic works as i explain explain in the book something deeply hidden. I say look imagine a classical universe in which there was a machine that could kill you instantly so forget about branches of the wave function. Just imagine newton was right and there was only one thing that ever happened in the world but there is a machine that could kill you instantly. You wouldn't know that you were dying right. He would be dead instantly. You wouldn't suffer <hes> and then after it happened. You're no longer they are to be upset. Should you mind if such a machine kills you well. My argument is i should be upset at the prospect of such a machine killing me. 'cause i wanna live on right so the reason why that would be bad is not because i would be upset after sure i was dead. It's because i'm upset now at the prospect of it happening because right now i'm imagining all sorts of possible futures for myself and that set of possibilities is abruptly terminated by this crazy machine and i think the same logic works for quantum mechanics and many worlds i think at the prospect back in some branches of the wave function i won't exist can upset me just as much as not existing at all in a single classical universe would be bad and if that's the reason why we should be upset at killing it's because the people now who are alive don't like the prospect of dying apart again from the fact that their friends might mind and so forth then. I don't think that animals think the same way as far as i know that's my reading of the literature i don't i think that they have that sort of future oriented hypothetical imagination that lets them think about a universe in which they don't exist right and it's this is crude and subject to revision upon future scientific advances but to me as far as i can tell that is a crucial difference between human beings and animals and it one it's one that makes me not attribute this right to continue existing to animals in the same way that my morley constructed rules attributed to human beings clearly. There's a lot of details here right. There's a lot of more specific ways. We could go into that. <hes> maybe someday we'll discover them. Walls do have this ability. We just didn't realize how could talk to them. And then i would update my beliefs. I would change my beliefs about what we can do <hes> and again you know it. It does affect questions like you know. Is it okay to murder pets other people's pets while i think what matters there is the human attachment to them. I think that forget about you know. Cats and dogs logs versus cows and horses. I think that you know if you live in a culture where cats and dogs are not pets where their livestock then. I don't think there's anything morally early wrong about eating them. Go ahead. You know i think that the reason why in our culture and my culture my house eating cats and dogs bad is because i have cats and i'm attached to them and that's an emotional emotional feeling that is a human being have and that matters to me that that is considered in my moral calculations now this is this is different than suffering of course now i did. This thought experiment with a imaginary machine that ends your life instantly. That's an imaginary machine right. That's not the real the world in the real world <hes> killing often does involve suffering and i think that suffering is bad and there's no doubt that in the real world of farming animals often suffer and i disagree with that. I don't want them to suffer. I am in favor of the animals on farms living happily as a life as they can up up until the moment that they are killed. <hes> i think the killing again sort of morally neutral because the animals are not anticipating dying at some point in the future because they overheard overheard it but <hes> the actual suffering in the moment that animals undergo i think should be minimized as much as possible just as it should for humans and again the question is about how to actually make that social change and it should be about laws and regulations that that make happy happy. I don't know what you know what there's a technical term for <hes> the kind of farming humane farming i suppose that <hes> respects the existence the moment to moment basis of the animals which i think has some moral weight and again among there's another complication that i should mention because morality is much harder and more complicated than physics is as we human beings might value the idea of things living if not actual every specific thing you can't be too hung up on on individual organisms living because we all die eventually right you cannot put absolute value on organisms animals and so forth living forever because that's not plausible. Death is real important and you must face up to it but maybe and i think very reasonably you might care about the fact act of life itself right the existence of living beings. Maybe even care about variety and diversity within the space of living beings. Maybe do you think that a diverse set of species in a diverse ecosystem is an independent value. I can totally on board with that. Actually i think that is perfectly sensible to be against <hes> allowing <hes> endangered species go extinct right preserving variety of habitats and animal animal species in the world is something that i think is a perfectly reasonable value for we humans to get behind again as before. I don't think it leads us to vegetarianism -tarian ism. I think that we can have both the value of having a diverse ecosystem and eating meat at the same time having settled this. Let me say in cases. This is not perfectly obvious <hes> again. I totally respect people who don't go along with this kind of thinking <hes> i want. I wanted to be mutual respect right <hes>. I don't want to lecture vegetarians. I don't want vegetarians lecture me. I don't want anyone to lecture anyone else in his sort of hectoring way. I'm happy to talk about it in a rational way. Maybe someone's mind will even be changed. <hes> vegetarians vegans especially have a reputation of of being lecturers <hes> of pushing their values on other people. I know that there are the vegans and vegetarians like that but look there are meat eaters. Were like that too. I've had plenty of examples of seeing meat eaters tried to put their meat eating and shove it in the face of a vegan and vegetarians we tend to you know be defensive about our own personal values and that might be something that actually happens but it's not something we should be proud out of. We should strive to do better which brings us to the other example. I promised to talk about the intellectual dark web and their engagement with political correctness social justice warriors things like that i do recognize. This is a subject. Some people are tired of other people. Don't want to hear about a the it becomes emotional and fraught and people take sides and get very passionate about it. That's why i put at the end of this podcast. You're welcome to skip it if you wants to but personally. I think it's important that we talk about these issues. Even if it can get heated sometimes we have to be able to have reasonable all good faith dialogue about things we disagree about even if the underlying issues are by construction ones that are very very personal personal very very close to the heart of the people who are talking about them and why would i bring up the intellectual dark web in discussion this supposed to be about morality and meta the ethics <hes> well for one thing of course if we're talking about social justice just as important part of ethics and morality for another. I think this is a good a test case for thinking about the relationship of morality and rationality ethics and reason these are things morality and reason that are not opposed to each other right. We need to work in concert in some way but there are different things and so how exactly they come together is an important issue when when we're thinking about how to be moral what is the role of rationality. When are we using it when a remiss using it. The intellectual dark web was coined coin as a term by eric weinstein. Eric is a managing partner at -til capital believe the might not get exactly his job title right. I i heard his name a few years ago when he was in the news. At least he was in the guardian <hes> in the united kingdom the newspaper when they were headlines saying saying that there is a new theory of everything and eric weinstein might be the next albert einstein revolutionizing physics. Many people objected to this since i hi eric had not actually written any physics papers including about his new theory of everything. It doesn't seem quite sensible to dub someone the new einstein when they haven't even written a paper yet as far as i know the paper's still hasn't been written <hes> maybe it has. I haven't kept track but it <hes>. I'm pretty sure it is not revolutionized physics because i think i would have known about that. I would have been informed about that thing but it's just a term that <hes> eric coined has many other people in the group jordan peterson. Sam harris says ben shapiro christina hoff sommers. There's a sort of loose knit collection of people nothing official like. I don't think their membership cards or anything like that but there's this idea that there's a group with people intellectuals who are trying to reach the public through non traditional means not just getting fancy professorships at ivy league universities publishing publishing high-profile books getting viewed in the new york review and things like that i will confess that it always rubs me a little bit the wrong way when people foreground the idea that what they're saying is forbidden or contrarian or naughty rather than what they're saying is correct or right. Good ideas not just forbidden ideas but okay. That's a stylistic choice. That won't hold against them. What is the idea of the intellectual dark web other then <hes> this loose knit group of people like how would you define what group of people it is besides their methodology for using podcasts and videos not just books books so you can look on reddit. There's a reddit sub reddit dedicated to the idea w as you might call them intellectual dark web and there it says the term intellectual dark web refers to the growing community of those interested in space for free dialogue held in good faith. The community exists outside of any governing body and has no biopsies to adhere to. It's a collection of people willing to open rational dialogue spending a variety of issues from politics philosophy so so i think this is very problematic definition in a number of ways. It's just it's number one. The statement that there are no bias to adhere adhere to sounds rather unrealistic to me but again. That's not what i'm gonna. Focus on right now more importantly is that this is not the correct definition. It's obviously not an accurate the definition if you want to define what is holding together this particular group of people and it's inaccurate and at least two ways first the idea that this particular group of people is is dedicated to open free dialogue is not at all borne out by the evidence the most celebrated current member of the intellectual dark web would certainly be jordan peterson. He's <hes> accrue group good amount of celebrity <hes> in the last couple of years and he infamously threatened to sue people who insult tim by calling him a misogynist for example he has called for university departments that he disagrees with to be shut down at one point he was planning a website that would keep track of have college courses containing what he labeled postmodern content so that students could avoid them if they didn't want to be exposed to such ideas just a couple of weeks ago as recording in this peterson met with victor or bon who <hes> is the president of hungary if you're not up on modern gary in politics or bond is part of the populist wave that is sweeping the world at least a mini wave and <hes> he is. Let's say not a friend of free speech h let's put it that way <hes> among other things he's cracked down on <hes> hungarian ideas that he doesn't agree with in many ways so much of the central european rippin university which was located in budapest has fled. It's moving to vienna in austria because of the crackdown by or bon. <hes> peterson seemed to have a collegial meeting with or bond in which they bonded over their mutual distaste for political correctness so these are not the actions of someone who is truly dedicated to the ideals of free speech members of the i._d. W. are also not uniformly pro science. Peterson shapiro are <hes> have expressed sympathy see for climate skepticism there. They don't really think that the earth is warming and <hes> shapiro at least i i don't i haven't dug up everyone's bio here but i know that <hes> ben shapiro shapiro has been sympathetic to intelligent design as opposed to ordinary darwinian evolution so it's not obviously a pre appro science group of people however okay hey. I'm just mentioning these because i think that the report issues but what i wanna get ad for this particular discussion is the description of what the w is only about methodology methodology. It does not mention the substantive beliefs that these people have the the it just says we're open to free discourse rational. You know <hes> open-minded did good faith discussions but you know about what and what are the positions that they're advocating in. These good faith discussions the members of the i._d. W seemed to be very very insistent that they are not politically homogeneous that they have a diversity of viewpoints within their groups. They're conservatives or liberals. What have you <hes> they just want to advocate for free speech but the reality is that they actually do agree on some substantive issues. I think that a lot of people who really are are dedicated to the traditional left right. Dichotomy have tried to shoehorn the i._d. W into conservativism or even a gateway to the alt-right. I think that's kind of a waste of time like i'm not that interested in who's a gateway to what if you disagree with somebody the disagree with what they actually say don't disagree with them because they might lead someone to follow someone even more extreme right if someone says truth things and then for whatever reason that leads to more extremism down the road the things they're saying are still true so my the extent to which i care about what the idea w says is what they are actually saying not where they might lead and i agree that it's not really easy to put them on a conservative liberal spectrum fully right because there is a diversity of opinions but again they agree agree about some things the things they disagree about are things like abortion rights or health care or climate change okay so they're they are literally on the on the filling filling the spectrum of political ideas what they agree about well. Let's look at the new york times. There's his famous article by barry weiss that introduced the the i._d. W to the world where she mentioned certain things they agree about including there are fundamental biological differences between men and women and identity politics takes is a toxic ideology that tearing american society apart and probably even though she doesn't say it quite there in that paragraph they would include the idea that there could be racial differences in q. that separates. Let's say blacks from whites or asians. These are the kinds of ideas that the i._d. W wants out there. You're in the public sphere being talked about okay so not including that the fact that they don't want to mention that in certain definitions of who they are is another sort of red the flag in my mind <hes>. I think that you know you should be candid about the beliefs that you have and want to spread their ideas. You will not find being ed promulgated an i._d. W discussions you will not find a good faith dialogue saying well. Maybe we should all become intersectional feminists or maybe we should support sharia law courts here in the united states <hes> what they agree on you know there's there are cultural debates here in the united states. I will i'll include canada because jordan in peterson is canadian. I might very well include other places in the world but i personally am just not familiar enough with what the cultural divides are in those places to uphold in about that here in the u._s. We have certain cultural disagreements okay. <hes> there is the idea on the part of the i._d. W w that one side of those ongoing cultural debates is being repressive is being closed minded to the discussion of ideas is shutting down down debate and the side that they're accusing of doing that is the progressive social justice side so while they may disagree on abortion or healthcare they agree that there is a threat right to free speech and open dialogue coming from the left that is why this sort of natural for some people to dub them conservative even if though they themselves wouldn't like that that okay so that's fine you know intellectually is fine to disagree with left on certain things <hes> they might be right right. It's a little worrisome. They don't wanna to be candid about that a substantive set of beliefs but it certainly okay to have substantive opinions but let's think about what these substantive opinions are actually about what they're actually saying you know for one thing. They're not that naughty right the idea there are fundamental biological differences between men and women. You'd have to work really really hard to find people who disagreed with that statement. You know there are implications of that statement that people might disagree with but they're not putting in those implications front and center. They're not admitting to those they won't have this incredibly banal statement about there are biological differences between men and women which is not really very controversial reversal in in most quarters <hes> but if you think about what these statements are the existence of these differences and the implications that they tease out from them between men and women <hes> different races <hes> people who might qualify as transgendered or lesbian gay queer those kinds of people if you think about what all these findings are saying these are not cutting edge scientific discoveries right the the idea that there are differences between men and women. These are archie bunker opinions. Those are opinions that you're racist. Uncle thanksgiving would have no trouble endorsing right. These are just sort of standard standard-issue conservative opinions about the the natural differences between different groups of people that doesn't mean they're wrong. It doesn't mean they're incorrect. Just because these opinions have been around for thousands of years okay they you could still be right even though they've been around for thousands of years that often happens but the fact that they might be cast as controversial in this context despite the the fact that many people do hold them suggests we should think about them carefully right suggests that we should say well not only what is the evidence for or against this opinion but but why is it that certain people hold these opinions. Why is that other that other people have become suspicious of these opinions. What is the history of this and that's because when we're trying to think about being rational we're getting into the relationship between rationality and morality. We have to admit that we have opinions. We have histories. We we have pre existing ideas our head. I like to think about being rational and making choices about what propositions to believe in as a basin okay which which is a fancy way of saying you say that for all the propositions about the world you could imagine you assigned some probability that they are true and if you do that before or you go out there and look at the world you call these your prior probabilities and of course you never do that before you go out there and look in the world. You haven't signed any priors at all. All of us look at the world before we ever hear about busy and reasoning so really what we're thinking about is before you make extra observations of the world you try to explicitly state what your beliefs about the world. Are you have background information about your experience in life about how you grew up about what you've learned and in that listing of your priors you better keep track of the fact that you have biopsies. We're all bundles of bias right. If neuroscience and psychology have taught us anything saying we are not perfect reasoning machines we can strive to be rational. We can aspire to get there to be to have our cognitive capacities. He's had a stronger influence over how we live our lives and make choices and the sign credence is to propositions but in the real world there's all sorts of ways in which we fall short of being perfectly rational <hes> not only do we have biopsies that that affect our beliefs but also in what we pay attention to in the world what we care about what we value and it's not that we should strive to get rid of our by sees entirely <hes>. We move toward that but we'll never get there. Okay we will never not have biases. That's just not psychologically neuro scientifically possible if you re daniel condiments book thinking fast and slow good framework for thinking about these things system to is our rational cognitive capacities system won. His classification is all of our underlying heuristic shortcuts and intuitive ways of thinking about the world and system one. Is the boss really like system to thinks it's it's in charge but it's analogize to yell the tiny little person riding elephant you know the title person thinks they're in charge for the elephant is doing all the work here and that's our heuristic our biases. We're not going to get rid of them. Will we can do is work to be aware of them to take them into consideration and i think that's the primary message i want to get at here. In this particular <hes> discussion you know as i started to say anybody in finishing it. I don't care that much about the intellectual dark web as such i am. I'm using them as an example as a test case for thinking about these issues of social justice political correctness and so forth none of this is new when i was in college in the nineteen eighties people were complaining about political correctness is like sex right every new generation thinks it invented these ideas but they've been around for a very very very a long time and so i think that the what we want to get at here is how we can best deploy rationality in a world where we recognize as we are not perfectly rational. We want to be moral. You want to be good people. We want to use the force of reason to help us decide what is right and what is wrong. We can never forget that. The force of reason is imperfect in real actual human beings so the intellectual dark web has put the word intellectual into into their title. I think that's good. I'm in favor of the word intellectual. I'm not going to begrudge them the ability to name themselves whatever they want. It's important port i mean but but that word matters to me okay the word intellectual has power and it should be taken. Seriously intellectual doesn't mean intelligent. It doesn't mean knowledgeable. It doesn't mean you're an academic or professor or anything like that. What it means to be an intellectual that you hold truth as the highest value that you will work towards being correct forgetting about all the other influences all the other motivations all the other bias as you might have whatever her truth you find out you will stick up for regardless of what other implications there are that in my mind is really what it means to be an intellectual intellectual even if those troops are inconvenient uncomfortable and so forth the opposite of intellectual isn't a stupid person a dumb person and uneducated person. The opposite of an intellectual is a flak an ass kisser toady. Someone who makes up arguments to support a pre existing position regardless list of whether the evidence and rationality actually leads them there <hes> to a typical person who's not an intellectual might be an apologist for power for for money for influence people who are deploying their forces of persuasion for some purpose other than finding the truth telling the people what they want to hear is the opposite of being an intellectual and included in the list of people is of course yourself telling yourself what you want to hear here is not what an intellectual should be doing and we recognize this for example in science in science. We know that this striving for getting the truth. Booth is a constant battle against our biases right. That's why we invent blind analyses double blind studies and so forth if you heard my podcast with kip thorne born you know about the example of li- go the gravitational wave observatory where they were so afraid of giving in to the temptation to find something and even if it wasn't there that they instituted the system where they would inject fake signals into the data and not tell anybody there was like a tiny group of people a committee committee within the huge collaboration that was in charge of injecting fake signals into the data with the idea being that the rest of the clebration wouldn't know whether that signal was fake fake or a real discovery out there in the sky and their job will be to take it seriously to analyze it as if it were completely real and then only at the end it would it be revealed up. No we just faked you and the idea is that you need to be on guard against fooling yourself. They wanted to make sure that they would be able to tell the difference difference between something that really happened in something that they were just patting themselves on the back into thinking actually happened so i want to extend this practice of science the practice piece of knowing perfectly well that we human beings are not rational and have by season light to give to them and therefore should make extraordinary measures to safeguard against doing that and i want to extend it to morality and to <hes> rationality more generally. I think it's important very important aspect of being a rational a person so the intellectual dark web if you think about what is these substantive positions that they are supporting we live in a world where there are certain cultural faultlines. Okay <hes> where certain groups have been picked on historically certain other groups have been dominant. Certain groups have been oppressed. Certain groups have been powerful awful and when it comes to these cultural faultlines the i._d. W inevitably ends up supporting the group which here in the u._s. or north america <hes> has been historically dominant the powerful the ruling group they are acting as apologists for the established order of things they want to say that the unequal representation for example or at least they want to. Let's say let's be try to be more fair. They want to argue for the possibility that we should at least consider the things like the unequal representation of blacks and whites men and women gays and straights and so forth in various positions positions of power and influence and wealth in the united states is not a result of bias or discrimination is just a reflection of the underlying natural order of things uh-huh an unbiased playing out to people's talents and inclinations that is the general impression that they want to either give or at least open to the possibility ostby open to the possibility of so if you think about that claim if you think about the claim that <hes> you know the difference between the number of men and women in science or in the united states senate or in positions of c._e._o.'s or on the forbes five hundred what is the forbes list four hundred people five hundred people billionaires nares the richest people in the united states. They're not equal in you know men and women they don't reflect the actual percentage of of men and women in the population or blacks and whites etcetera cetera so do you really want to claim that. This is just how things should be. It's not actually a result of bias and discrimination. That's a very remarkable claim. If you want to state it quite that baldy we've clearly had bias and discrimination in our society for very long time and it hasn't hasn't gone away like in my mind. It's pretty clear that it's still out there. It's clear that we have made progress. You know there are people whose ancestors not too long long ago were slaves here in the united states and there are still effects of that but it's much more recent than that when i was born in nineteen sixty six okay so not that long ago within my lifetime women were not allowed to apply to go to college at places like princeton yale georgetown university of virginia okay a giant public school <hes> the idea that women should go to these places just wasn't countenanced blacks were openly discriminated against in countless ways if if you if you are familiar with the history of how blacks were discriminated against long after slavery was officially eliminated you read on the history of redlining the idea of of drawing lines around certain areas of certain cities where blacks were concentrated and refusing to give housing housing loans or mortgages to anyone who wanted to buy a house in those areas <hes> this was an enormously influential policy not an official policy written down in laws. There's at least not most places but it enormously influential practice. I should say that prevented african american families and communities from accumulating wealth and owning their own houses and lands for a very long time it was officially declared illegal in nineteen sixty eight with the fair housing act but of course it kept on going unofficially for a long time studying nineteen eighties where it was much easier for poor white families in atlanta georgia to get a mortgage loan than for middle. It'll income or high income black families in atlanta and the results of this have been pretty astonishing in two thousand nine is the most recent year i could find numbers for the wealth not the income which is sort of the amount of money you make per year but the well so the total of your assets minus your debts. The wealth of a median white white family in the united states. <hes> is over one hundred thousand dollars whereas the wealth of medium black families under six thousand dollars. There's an enormous wealth gap between whites and blacks in the united states so the idea that in situations where you know very recently there was official discrimination and still l. today. They're the lingering effects of discrimination bias in our society the idea that somehow these effects don't play a huge role in deciding who gets that's what job who's promoted to what position who is paid attention to who we listened to that seems wildly unlikely to me. We all know about how recently gay marriage was finally accepted here. In the united states. It would be very very very strange indeed to think that the attitudes that led to these discriminatory discriminatory policies suddenly evaporated when the policies themselves were finally overturned. Presumably there were reasons why we have these policies policies people had beliefs that made these policies seem like the right thing to do and even if you change the law the beliefs don't necessarily change even if they change some people they don't change with others so to me as a good base and thinking about what my biases are and what society's by he's probably are. It's much more sensible answerable to believe that our society is suffused with discriminatory ideas in ways both obvious and subtle so as rational people it should be our our job to accept that to face up to that reality and to keep as much vigilance as we can to make sure that the effects of this discrimination grimm nation <hes> and the underlying attitudes that led to this discrimination don't distort the world we live in. We want to live up to the ideals of the enlightenment and people who were you know famously. People who are the nightman thinkers who founded the enlightenment didn't themselves always live up to the ideals of the enlightenment. Thomas jefferson owned slaved saved slaves and raped one of his slaves. You know our actual people in the past fall short of their own self <hes> promulgated ideal. I deals but we can try to better right. We can try to be as close to those ideals as we can. The enlightenment teaches us that we are all created equal and we live in a world where are we are not all treated equals. There's a mismatch and we should fight against that the example of such a mismatch that i'm most familiar with until i talked about it. A lot is women women in science. This is flared up as an issue <hes> over the last year or two. There's a famous example. Where the physicist alessandro strew mia gave a talk at a conference prince <hes> that he got in hot water for giving <hes> so this is an his become as you might expect especially on the internet a hot button issue where people have convinced themselves. It's drew me as a martyr for the cause and and so forth if i so stimulus point was roughly speaking that women are under-represented science because women on average don't have as much talent or interest in doing science as men do that was his point now. Why was he even giving a talk about that at eta conference on women in science you know he wasn't invited to give the talkie invited himself. He asked to give that talk and when asked what he was going to talk about. He lied he. He said he was going to talk about some details of bibliographical statistics okay that was part of his talk but that was not what is talked about <hes> what he meant and by that was he basically is ranking the value of individual physicists by how many citations they get by how often people would cite their papers in other in their own papers and yup basically the it's almost absurd like you couldn't if you wanted to sort of embarrassed the people who actually believe believe that women are not discriminated against you would come up with a hero like alessandro. Dubya turns out in the middle of the talk. You begin to realize his real motivation for giving this talk is that he he applied for a job and he didn't get it and a woman got it and he became convinced that <hes> the forces of political correctness where flooding the market with unqualified women at the expense of much more qualified men and there are people who believe this there are people who believe it at different levels of explicitness and i just want to you know bring bring up the absurdity of this of this idea. You know there's not a lot of women in physics okay. The roughly speaking the number of of people who get who are women is ten percent that seems to be the number. It's been for a few years now. I i was a host for physics. Colloquium caltech recently recently and i looked at the audience for the talk there about eighty people in the audience and three of them were women in on my floor of the building and caltech where the theoretical physics group is is held <hes> theoretical high energy physics group. I should say there's roughly eight or ten faculty ten or twelve post docs twenty or thirty graduate students and for several years in a row there were zero women zero women among faculty post docs graduate with students all in total in the theoretical energy group at caltech so whatever the reason for this is <hes> and caltech is not completely representative tentative there are fluctuations because the numbers are small okay but the idea that the forces of political correctness flooding theoretical physics with unqualified women women is absurd on the face of it because the women just aren't. They're not working. It's a terrible way to flood the field if that's what you're trying to do if do you think about it the idea that it's it's really men who have a bad deal in physics not women is exactly like global warming. Denial ism like climate into nihilism. So what do i mean by that so in both cases in climate nihilism and in men or the real victims here denial ism in science <hes>. There's a phenomenon that is perfectly obvious in climate. The perfectly obvious phenomenon is the average temperature of the earth is increasing. The earth is getting warmer. Okay in science it is that most scientists are men. They're not women. There's nowhere close to fifty fifty and also then there's a pretty straightforward explanation for that phenomenon in the case of the climate. It's that we are dumping. Greenhouse gases into the atmosphere okay carbon dioxide is shooting up and you look at the curves. It looks just like the curve of temperature pitcher shooting up for women in science women have been discriminated against they weren't allowed to go to college for many years and those biopsies discriminatory assumptions asians that lay in the background having completely evaporated but in addition to the phenomenon the obvious explanation. There are two other factors at work work number one. There are complications in the explanation okay. There is a simple explanation in both cases but there's also complicating factors. Life is hard. Sometimes uh-huh things are rarely very simple for the atmosphere sure were putting carbon dioxide into it but other things going on there's ice sheets and permafrost and there's the ocean versus the land and there's all sorts of their sunspots who knows for women in science there. Are you know their forces are trying to increase the representation of women in science. There's women's own interests in being a scientist or not being a scientist. There's having children. There's a million other complicating factors okay and number two. There is a political motivation. There's a reason to resist the obvious explanation in the case of climate there is both this <hes> <unk> entrepreneurial capitalistic motivation to say no. I wanna keep burning fossil fuels because this makes me rich and this is complicated for other reasons. If you remember my podcasts with naomi arrestees she explained how <hes> libertarian politics and the fight against the soviet union in the nineteen eighties really lead to some people to resist resist the scientific consensus on global warming <hes> and there's complicated and there's a political motivation for women in science also there are men like alessandro sandra jumia who don't want to admit that maybe women are discriminated against they think of themselves as perfectly unbiased right as perfectly fair in these things so the complications if you look into it if you dig into the science carefully for global warming or for women in science the complications of the the other lying explanation don't change the underlying explanations when you do it a little bit beyond the most naive it turns out that sure there's a simple explanation for global global warming but there's also more complicated things you can do in the expedition still works. The world is still getting warmer. It's still a bad thing. We should still stop. Putting greenhouse gases is into the environment for women science. Yes there's many complicating factors. They wanna have kids family. Leave you know <hes> maybe <unk> very young ages. They become less interested in science but the discrimination is still there and is keeping women out of science very very large numbers but if you're ideologically motivated to deny <hes> the reality you can leverage those complications you can throw up a cloud of disinformation right you can talk about all sorts of other things going on on and this is a well known technique in propaganda right if there are if you have an audience that is sympathetic to a certain point of view you even if that point of view is not true you can give them a reason for accepting that point of view just by muddying the waters just by saying all sorts of different things and giving them sort sort of a licensed to say well. You know we don't really know this is the kind of thing that jordan peterson would say about climate change right well. We don't really know a lot of complicated things. We shouldn't jump to conclusions and you see this kind of thing at work in strew me as talk right. You can see the slides for his talk online. There's one that is especially hilarious where he is comparing during the career <hes> number of citations to from women physicists physicists and so you know he plots the number of citations you have per year five years after ten years after fifteen years saturday and you can see very clearly the men just keep going up and up and up and the women's were to go up at a much lower rate. They seem to be accumulating fewer citations over time now. There's a very argument to be made that total number of citations is not an unmediated measure of scientific quality. It begs the question of whether or not the women are being discriminated against by getting less citations but let's put that aside ride the hilarious thing is that he completely ignored the fact that women leave science right he was comparing men who stayed in physics fix for fifty years to women who had done physics for five or ten years and then left the field. It is completely unsurprising that their total number of those citations over time are very different because they spent a lot of very different time writing papers <hes> that's not to say that the underlying conclusion is not true but the analysis is woefully the hilariously inadequate and comes about because he knew what answer he wanted to get and he got it and then he stopped thinking about it. That's the kind of thing that can happen when you're not an intellectual actual when you're not devoted to the truth when you have an answer you want to get you sort of get there and then you stop thinking anymore. The reality is that discrimination israel <hes> against women against blacks in a million different ways. There's discrimination in physics as well as elsewhere in the world. <hes> that's what you can test i four and every test reveals the same basic answer that by by caesar real they exist. This is why <hes> concert musicians have developed a system where if you want to audition for the orchestra you do so behind a curtain so the people who are listening to you are listening to your music not looking to see whether you are male or female because the tests show that there was a huge bias in favor of male musicians. There are obviously <hes> examples of harassment within physics and harassment is sort of the an extreme example of something that happens all over the place right professors commenting on women's appearance students students and as well as other faculty colleagues. I personally see this all the time. I cannot possibly imagine how someone could be in the physics. Community have have there is even slightly open and not see all of the million ways in which women's worth is questioned as a scientist it is it it is just a constant stream very very subtle questioning like <hes>. Do you really belong here. Kinds of things and you can say well. You know if you want to be a scientist. You should suck could up. You should put up with all those little people. <hes> questioning your worth but it's unbalanced. You know if people need to suck it up. That's fine but there's no reason why i women need to suck it up more than men. That's that's exactly. The example of discrimination is death by thousand cuts. Not necessarily you know actively being pushed out and it's not because you know <hes> it's not a simple relationship between math ability and whether you become a physics professor there are more for women in mathematics than there are in theoretical physics. Girls get better grades in math classes than they do than boys. Do okay girls don't do as well on standardized tests of mathematics as boys do past a certain age at very early age similar later on it becomes different <hes> so the question is is doing math in the real world more like getting a great in class or more like taking a multiple choice test. I think you could make a case that it's more like getting a grade in class. All this influence all this questioning that women really don't belong in this field. It starts very very young might niece <hes> <hes> you know once we went to christmas we gave my niece and my nephew both christmas presents my niece who's like i don't know eight years old ten years at the time she opens her christmas presents and it was a little erector set to build an electric car you tiny little thing he built on electric car. You know there's little battery a unit. You made it go and she opens and she looks at it. She's very young and she looks at us and says oh. I think there was a mistake. This is for my brother and we said no. It's really it's really not for your brother for you and you could see her like struggling with this idea like i don't get presents like this right and it's not because he's actively discriminated against snap because my brother and his family were trying to steer her away from science or engineering or anything like that just because there there are suppositions about what girls want want versus what boys want and the hilarious upshot of this story is that you know half an hour later she had built that car and it was zooming around the floor and she was loving it. She'd had never been able to play with something like this before. We just sort of start when children are born assuming that they like certain things. I don't like other things and you know for some girls that wouldn't work. Some girls would be completely not interested in cars and that's perfectly okay but if we don't give them the chance. We'll never know so what i'm doing here. In this discussion. I know that i went on extra long about that because it is very close to my heart and i'm focusing on the existence of the discrimination the existence of these <hes> thousand mild ways ways both mild and strong women are nudged out of science in the effect that it has on them and i'm not just having a discussion about what the inherent abilities are given to us by biology whether we are men or women. That is the subject that at the <hes> people don't believe in discrimination tend to prefer to focus on and the reason. I'm focusing on his because who cares. I really so so there's this idea that if i don't want there to be discrimination i must be denying the reality of biological differences. That's not it. It's not i don't in care about biological differences. It is certainly true to anyone who is actually met both men and women that the women who are good at math and physics are better at it than the average man at matter physics right therefore knowing that someone is male or female should should have absolutely no influence on how you judge them as a mathematician or physicist or other forms of scientists. You should judge how they actually are. As an individual it may be the case that there is a difference between girls and boys intrinsically in different kinds of ability. It may be that there's not any actual actual intrinsic difference. It's very very hard to know that because of course the moment you're born you start being treated differently depending on whether you are a boy or girl but but it doesn't matter because discrimination is bad regardless if there is a difference between men and women and intrinsic ability and women are also discriminated donated against just for being women. We should work to get rid of that discrimination. If there's a difference between men and women at intrinsic ability and there is discrimination the nation we should also work to get rid of that discrimination that is what matters the people who concentrate on the possible existence of intrinsic differences in ability between men and women based on standardized tests. These are generally not people who have a professional interest in genetics or psychology or anything like that sometimes they are but there's a lot of people who are not in that camp who nevertheless seem fascinated by this particular topic. The only reason they are is because they are being apologised for the current insist they are being apologised for the idea that there is no evidence for discrimination because they want to say i can map the existence of intrinsic ability onto onto the number of number of nobel prize winners in the number of faculty members at sarah but that's an irrelevant argument. If there's a separate way of looking and asking is there discrimination out there in the world anyone who is working in the sciences or who studied science knows that there is discrimination out there and that's bad and that's what matters and of course there are similar things to be said about race about sexual identity and so forth. There's an a number of ways in which <hes> discrimination is still real. We want to be better people but we're not people yet. We're not we're not perfect. People who probably never will be perfect people. We need to keep working on it and you know look discrimination and things like that. They don't necessarily come out of evil or bad impulses. I've known the sweetest people who would be a horrified at the idea that they were in any way sexist or racist who nevertheless exhibited ideas predilections right that would be obviously by an outside observer labelled as a sexist or racist and those secret attitudes those parts of you that you don't always bring up to the surface and question can absolutely affect how you go through your life but i don't think it's evil or even necessarily a moral don't miss calibration and this finally gets us back to this issue of the interplay between ethics and morals and rationality and reason <hes> if you want wants to follow the advice of the intellectual dark web you should be rational range me reasonable. Ben shapiro likes to say facts. Don't care about your feelings and this is very very true but we all have feelings any like it or not. We should admit that we have feelings. Sometimes you gotta dig deep to to get to the ultimate facts. Confronting feelings that you might not want to admit are there inside you. There is this temptation as i said to come to the conclusion you like and then stop rationality is often used for purposes of rationalization of taking rationality should be you start with the data and you worked. The conclusion rationalization station is you start with the conclusion you like and then you go backwards and construct a seemingly rational justification for it. We are all subject to this. I'm not trying to pick on people who i disagree with <hes> politically. I'm subjected to this. I have racist and sexist parts of my upbringing that are still there. How in the world could i not. We live in a racist and sexist society. There's overwhelming evidence for that. I can try to be better. You don't want to be racist or sexist but if i were to just simply say if i were steven colbert when his in his character of the colbert report and saying you know i don't see race. I think that you're young asian woman right. That's that's a joke because it can't be true. We should admit that we are human beings bundles of impulses in heuristic system one chattering away beneath the surface and be open open to the possibility that that affects our behavior rationality is instrumental it finds conclusions from whatever inputs it gets but we can ask ourselves even if we are perfectly rational. Where do the inputs come from. Where what facts about the world do we choose is to look at okay so if i am concerned that maybe women are getting unfair advantages. It's very easy for me to see certain fellowships or opportunities for women in particular that men don't have i can see that hiring committees faculty actually hiring committees go out of their way to find female candidates and that is bright and vivid to me and makes me mad and makes me feel that there's injustice in the world and i can just not notice all of the ways in which women are nudged away from science throughout their entire lives from when they're born to elementary school through high school through undergraduate through graduate school and beyond and so to me. I'm being rational when i say like this is very unfair that there's this fellowship that only only women can get through this job that this woman got and it's because of the garbage in garbage out principle i didn't have i didn't take into account all of the facts of the real world but the facts i chose to take into account i reasoned with in some way so you can see conservative speaker invited to a college who is being heckled or even being <hes> d- platforms not allowed to give a talk of that college and you cannot see the reality of racism or sexism schism or homophobia or transphobia that affects the lives of students in these situations so in my opinion people stifling stifling speech in the name of fighting racism is bad. I am not favor of that. I'm very much in favor of a wide variety of speech about all sorts of things things even the worst people should be able to talk if there's a group on campus that wants to invite a speaker. I think that they should always be allowed allowed to invite that speaker no matter how bad the person is and some people disagree with me about this. Some people think that certain people are beyond the pale they should be allowed to be invited did not just campus wide but even by any group on campus so i disagree with them and i'm happy to have that conversation with them. In my mind this problem of racist speakers being invited to campus or not being invited to campus is not anywhere near as bad as the problem of racism <laughter>. It's almost absurd to try to balance the effect of racism on the lives of black people in the united states versus. The problem of this particular speaker didn't get to talk because they were considered to be racist. They're both problems but they're not problems of equal magnitude in my mind and i know that what some people will say to that kind of argument. Is you know i can choose. There's many bad things going on out there. In the world. I get the right to to choose which bad things. I'm going to focus on right. You know. I can't solve all the problems of the world. Some problems are more important to me than others. I think that's a true statement but there's a limit to how far that reasoning goes when the problems we're talking about or closely related. The idea i have in mind is if you go to a restaurant and order soup soup and it's supposed to be hot and you get cold okay so this is that traditional setup for complaining to your waiter. You say waiter. My soup is cold. It's supposed to be hot now. Elsa waiter were to say to you. How dare you worry about something so trivial as cold soup when global climate change is destroying our environment. That'll beat him served response on the part of your waiter right. I mean it's true. Climate change is a much bigger problem than the temperature of your soup but it's a problem from a completely different area. The the waiter has no right to say like you should spend exactly as much time complaining about problems in proportional to how bad they are. That's not a good way to go through life but if the waiter said how dare you worry about something so trivial as the temperature of your soup when the kitchen is obviously on fire and we're evacuating the restaurant in that case the waiter is correct act right and that's because that particular issue the kitchen being on fire is closely related to the situation going on in the restaurant right then so sure sure you can say well. I care about free speech not about racism but when free speech and racism intersect it make sense to balance the relative importance of these different problems problems. I think that fighting racism is a much bigger problem than the getting speakers on campus even if they are both problems for many people bill in our culture as much as we don't want to admit it. The metaphorical kitchen is on fire. The restaurant is burning down. They live a life where there's just a huge number of ways in which they are not treated equally not because of who they are as a person but because of what group they belong to that doesn't mean that such people are right about everything or that. They're you know view. The world is intrinsically correct but it offers a perspective that other people might not have when you do not have to put up with certain forms of discrimination. It's hard to put put yourself into the mindset into the world into the life of someone who does i had this discussion with paul bloom on the podcast and paul rudd interesting provocative rocketed book about <hes> being against empathy and his argument was we tend to empathize with people like ourselves and by doing saying that empathy gets in the way of being rational okay again the this morality in rationality intersection and he argued that you know if we were simply rational final then we could be moral could be better people without trying to put ourselves in situations that other people are facing without being empathetic. I think there's a a huge mistake in that analysis because clearly if you do restrict your empathy to people like yourself then yes then i agree with him then you can in fact be irrational about your moral conclusions because you're not taking into consideration the perspectives of other people but my solution do it. Is we need more empathy not less. We need to train our empathy to really let us understand where other people are coming from especially when people have very very different life situations than we do i. I'm not a believer that someone with a different life situation than me has magical insight that i must just sort of instantly except when they offer it but i do as a enlightenment thinker someone who believes that <hes> all knowledge just provisional infallible and subject updating. I realized that they know something. I don't and i should be able to listen to them and learn something. That's the important thing it's accepting what black people say about racism just because they're black. It's except that they know something about racism that i don't because they're black because they've lived a different different experience. I should try to listen to what they have to say. When i do my best to accept what they have to say i should reason by myself. I should do the best i can to reach a correct conclusion but i have to be open to those experiences to those voices to those <hes> different ways of living in the world and i even think there should be empathy for privilege straight white men. I'm in favor of that. The word privilege <hes> has become very charged. Obviously we talk about male privilege about white privilege and so forth and it rubbed some people the wrong way and i get it. Why rubs people the wrong way also get why it's used. I think it's a useful concept but if you are a straight white man man and you're accused of having white privilege for example <hes> you can instantly start thinking to yourself well. I'm not privileged. My life was tough. I earned what i got right. I mean maybe you were poor. <hes> maybe you were just like not that socially adept when you were young. Maybe you faced a great tragedy. Your parents died or something like there's a million ways in which your individual life may be a struggle even though you were labelled as having white privilege or male privilege or something like that but privilege village doesn't mean that you had an easy life. That's that's not what the word means in this particular context. What it means is that they're obstacles that you don't face <music> simply because of your membership in certain groups it doesn't mean you don't face other obstacles but guess what people who are black or gay you're transgender whatever they can also face the obstacles of being poor being socially awkward having family tragedies and what have you and they also can face things like racism and misogyny transphobia which you don't have to if you're a straight white person the example that comes to mind. I always conceptualize difficult problems. Looms in terms of basketball analogies <hes> recently the toronto raptors won the n._b._a. Championship <hes> in a game in oakland over the golden state warriors and masai jiri jiri who is the general manager of the toronto raptors so he's the guy who <hes> chooses which players to trade for into draft into signs. He's basically basically the boss of the basketball team and when they won the game to finally win the championship game six <hes> he rushed out of the court to join the celebration and he was held back by a police officer and the police officer originally claimed that jiri actually had punched him but then guess what of course it's the n._b._a. Championship and they just wanted. There's a million cameras and videos around. There's no punching involved as it was shown so the police officer then said well. He didn't have his credential title. Guess what he was carrying credential in his hand. So yeary was wearing a suit. He's carrying credential in his hand he as the general manager of the <hes> basketball team that just won the n._b._a. Title and when he tried to join the celebration he was stopped by a police officer now. Maybe maybe this would have happened. Were he white but he wasn't white and it happened and i think that by any objective way of measuring the probabilities here the chances that would have happened had he been white businessmen. Looking general manager are much lower. It's an example of privilege wjr that there's a different way of looking at people and individual cases are always a little problematic to lean on because you never know maybe in this particular example. The officer had instructions -struction that would have led him to do the same thing for anyone of any race or ethnicity. I don't know that for sure. What you know is that there's an accumulated effect act of many many many examples of things like that of how people are treated differently because of their skin color in the united states so that's a real will kind of privilege that white people have it doesn't mean your life was easy. It means yet a different life experience okay. So where are we. Let's bring this back to the original question of how to be a good the person how to act morally in the world and then he's an example from <hes> same harris and you know. It sounds like i'm picking on sam harris. I don't mean to do that. <hes> i talk about same a lot because he's worth engaging with. I think that he's <hes> his he's more interesting as more interesting things to say to me than some of his intellectual dark web compatriots patriots <hes> his podcast for example was certainly a role model for mine inspiration for thinking that you could have long conversations about intellectual topics and people i will be interested in <hes> in listening to that. There's not a lot of evidence for that in the world and he certainly provided some so when i engage with him because i think it's worth trying to engage in constructive give disagreement so there was a time on his podcast i think with jordan peterson probably was given the subject subject was pronouns. <hes> being mm used by transgender people transgender people want to be referred to by very specific pronouns that they care about <hes> sometimes they'll i wanna choose pronouns from the existing english language he she so forth other times. They prefer made up words because they're in a different situation. Then <hes> six gender people would find themselves and this is an ongoing controversy about how we should deal with this so sam put forward his opinion that he thought that people requesting to him that he used certain pronouns to refer to them he was not in favor of that because he thought is a positive imposition imposition on asking him to do something not just asking him to not do something bad but asking him to do something actively good it it takes energy right and if we just extrapolate there's an infinite number of things that i could be asked to do and that's not something. He thinks it's quite fair so my attitude towards this. Is you know yeah yeah it it. It is asking you to do something positively. A would take energy making the world. A better place might very very well require effort require and exertion of energy. Even on the part of people who have not themselves made the world a worst place okay i. I think that's a very plausible thing. The argument that there could be an infinite number of things you were asked to do is just kind of silly right. There's there's not an infinite number of things you're asked to do. You're asked to do the things that makes the world a better place that makes it more fair that lets people be treated how they want to be treated. People people who are not transgender typically have no trouble at all getting referred to by the pronouns they prefer this automatically happens for them. People who are transgender have to work look at it and that is an imbalance between the life experiences of those different people in my mind and again. Maybe this comes down to empathy. Transgender people have to put up with a lot. They are born and grow up into this realization that they don't conform to what the world expects them. They're not what the society around around them wants them and believes them to be in there. Constantly reminded of that that is a tough way to grow up right or even if you find out about it <hes> <hes> later in life at a tough way to exist it can result in bullying ostracism. You can be ostracized from your family or friends. You can become depressed rest. Sometimes it leads to suicide. It's not an easy way to there's a lot of courage associated with being able to openly live that way so if i learned that i can make someone's someone likes that someone like that's life easier simply by referring to them using the words that they prefer for to be referred buying that sounds to me like the very least i can do. There's not that many ways in which i can clearly and obviously make the world happier better place. That is one of them so. I find it <hes> very easy to do that. I mean not easy to necessarily know someone's preferred pronouns. Are that's a sticky social situation at that. We're still working at but if someone tells me what they are. I will do everything i can to try to use them and that can be tricky too because again system one is in charge roger. How we refer to people is often unconscious and we have to sort of consciously override and it can be work. I get that to me. I think it's worth <hes> work very well worth. Doing i think that a huge part of being moral being a good person in the version of morality construct as a constructivist is breaking taking out of our biopsies our perspectives <hes> we should always start by thinking. I'm probably a little bit biased right. That's the safest way okay to go through life. 'cause then you're open through to how that manifests and if you find oh actually it's not really manifesting. I'm behaving very nonbiased way good for you to me <music>. This is the enlightenment at work right. This is treating people with equal dignity cosmopolitanism openness to new experience being able to admit that our beliefs our perspectives might not be complete might not be right. We can always do better be aware of what our biases are. Even the possibility ability biopsies that we haven't yet recognized do everything we can to get rid of them and i know that some people are thinking here. <hes> isn't there also a bias the other way. Why couldn't they at least be a bias. Couldn't there be a bias towards sort of the righteousness of feeling that you are oppressed in that gives you some extra a handle on a virtue or something like that yeah absolutely one hundred percent. I agree with the possibility of that bias. I think that we can all be by allies again. It's a human thing. It's not doesn't belong to one group or another. We're not rational. We're not perfectly rational perfectly virtuous perfectly moral. We can all work to be better at it but again. I think that there's a sort of comparison to be done. If there are groups that are historically oppressed picked on not not treated equally. I'm going to be a little more sympathetic to them. You know fighting against this then the people who are in the dominant group you know there. I'm very sympathetic. Pathetic worries about free speech as i said. I think that we could do a much better job. Those of us who believe that free speech is important. I think we can do a much better job in ignoring an understanding and talking about the reasons why certain people don't want to be subjected to certain kinds of speech if you simply don't understand that motivation then you're not being rational. You're not being intellectual. You're not facing up to reality. I try my the best to understand why certain people don't want certain speech acts to happen and to understand why that is in work within it. My current went understanding that vegetarianism is that nevertheless despite the very real harm that speech can do it's worth it. <hes> it can be put in certain regions like you needn't be forced to hear certain kinds of speech. There should be safe spaces where you can avoid certain kinds of speech but there should the other spaces where that's beaches available. If that's what you want to go to <hes> i do believe there are people who go overboard in fighting for racial justice or sexual justice justice or whatever and they become so enthusiastic that they want to shut down people who disagree with them and i don't come to that conclusion. I disagree with those people people. That doesn't make them my enemy. If i reach a point personally where people go overboard because they're fighting against racism and sexism and discrimination listen i started thinking of them as my enemies rather than allies. I disagree with then. I'm going to have a rethink my own life choices here. I'm going to have to take a step back and and think about where i am. I can be on the same side against racism as someone who's tactics and strategies i disagree with. I have no trouble believing that at all. I did on twitter at one point. <hes> tried to promote the idea of million social justice after john stuart mill of course the famous philosopher who who gave the most eloquent defense of free speech and the free market of ideas and he also gave a very very eloquent defense of the rights of women now. It may be see that his <hes> his wife harry taylor. I don't know i don't know if they got married. I think to get married later in life but harry taylor probably was responsible for a lot of the ideas and even some of the writing in <hes> the subjugation of women and some other of mills books but i liked the idea that things like freedom of speech the free market you too bye deals <hes> the give and take of dialogue and discussion an openness the realization that were all fallible and imperfect and biased and working written to get better all of that taken together is a powerful force could be a powerful force for social justice not just against it that if we do it right if we talk to each other in the right way if we are open to listening to other people we're opening to admitting that we're not perfect perfect that we come with a bundle of ideas beneath the surface that we might not even be aware of and we can always do work to improve them and one of the ways to improve them is to listen to other people listen to people who disagree with even if we end up still disagreeing with immediately learn nothing doing a little bit of listening. I think that doing that in in good faith is actually a great force for making the world better including fighting against racism sexism other forms of bias and discrimination <hes>. I'm hoping that in some broad but minor sense the podcast pushes us in that direction <hes> you know i don't want to actually spend a lotta time on on mindscape talking to out and out racists but i do want to talk to people i disagree with especially about strategies for making the world a better place <hes> all of this as i said very much at the beginning of of this overlong solo podcast all this is very tentative in my mind like these areas of being a good person be moral orl- having good ethics. These are things that anyone should be all that certain about in their own minds. We can all learn and do better <hes>. I'm trying trying. They do better. Hopefully we're all trying to do better. Let's see how well we do. Thanks for listening bye bye <music> <music>.

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The Radicalz Revisited

Something to Wrestle with Bruce Prichard

1:35:58 hr | 1 year ago

The Radicalz Revisited

"Well it's January comes to a close our New Year's resolutions looking get outta debt yet. Lower your monthly payments. You start saving some money the yet we can make it happen for you right now with a few quick clicks at save with Conrad Dot Com for more than forty states and now including Connecticut. So we could save more families than ever before. And you don't need perfect credit or money out of your pockets to do this and I'm talking to you if you're on a thirty year long. It's not a matter of if we can save you money. It's a matter of how much I even convinced my dad to cut five years off of his long this month. You can do this to find out how much money you can save when you take years worth of unnecessary house payments off your loan and instead of working for all that money paying taxes on it and giving it away now stick it in your own bank account. Hey yourself awesome man. That's what we're suggesting that you do with that extra savings and by the way our credit card. We can help you with that too no matter what your situation is if you're looking for a lower monthly payment payment if you look at it and get out of that apartment into a new house maybe you're a veteran and you're not exactly sure what that does for you. How about? You can buy a house with no money down but if you're serious about saving money as only so much that clipping coupons was gonna do for Ya and yes working extra hours great but if you're just putting in all that extra time to pay hey a crazy high interest rate what are you doing yourself alive. Pack keep more of your own money and if you're next to payments that save with Conrad Dot Com and MLS number six expound zero eight four equal housing lender and remember. It's no cost no obligation and if we can't save you money we won't waste your time and even credit scores in the five hundred 's can be approved that's eight with Conrad Dot Com to Her Korea tops near listening to wrestle with consumers pressured. I what's going on man. How are you Excellent just another beautiful day in paradise by far you know what I did is a mood thing around the microphone. Have we have you not done this before they moved it like this podcast. You know where people are listening and I mean as soon as we started then you started moving what why. Why don't you move it before we started? Why y you know? The funny thing is is a interview somebody today and they were telling me about how podcasting sway the future. Oh really yeah slow wall and then I was thinking a little all and I moved it. I didn't know that it was gonna Fart when I moved it. Ah some you know how you are sometimes Conrad your home and you move and you you you far. If somebody moves you sometimes it just comes out. And that's I think that's just what happened. Well what's come out lately. I Hate Steven Singer. He heard me. I Hate Stephen Singer and all the other jewelers in America too. Because he's got the best valentines gift ever. We're excited to tell you about it. Stephen Singer and something to wrestle have brought do a real long-stem American beauty rose. It's been lavishly and deeply dipped in pure twenty four carat gold. It will never need water. It will never will. It will never die and this is something unique special and lasts forever that comes with a personalized love. Note from you. All Stephen Signature gift box ship for free three starting at just fifty nine bucks right now go to. I Hate Stephen Singer DOT com. That's I hate Stephen Singer DOT COM or the other corner of Nathan Walnut in Philadelphia. To see what we're talking about real roses from a real jeweler for your real love at. I Hate Stephen Singer. Dot Com. Something we all love. Love our radicals episode. This is the first time we're doing a revisit like this. I'm strongly encourage you to go listened to that episode first and then pinned back here with us or maybe just finished this one and then go back and check it out but I think these are going to be great companion pieces back then. We weren't doing a ton one of research. It was very much. Just two guys talking about wrassling and off the top of our head. We've got some actual news and notes here from the dirt sheets at at the time that we can compare notes with this will be a little different than that one. But I think they'll fit together nicely and man. I don't think I can stress. How important that episode so it was to the success of this podcast right here? We'll help Conrad she. And now it's like I got something to do. See back then. We didn't know anybody's listen. A Sir waste online sixty. Two hundred thousand people were listening to stuff. We know like all all people. Listen Yeah it was because the billions. It's Keb billions there you go. That's how many people were in the building at Wrestlemania three to I don't know if you knew that. Billions yes That's that's actually what the gate receipts said. So listen we we think these fit nicely together and You know the other thing the fits nicely together as is helping you. Move your product or service if you'd be interested in US advertising your product or service. Hurry to advertise with Conrad had dotcom fill out the simple easy form an arm and Dave Green Hook you up and get you here on something to wrestle but there were some guys looking to get on Monday night. Rau- and on the January thirty first two thousand raw can't believe this is real. Today is the twenty year anniversary when the wrestling world was shocked when the backbone of WCW. Eddie Guerrero Dean Malingco Perry Saturn. I N what everybody else thought was the WCW world champion Crispin Wa. Walk through the crowd out in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania and just sit ringside on Monday night raw as we mentioned. This was our eighth episode. More than three years ago easily easily one of the most popular shows we ever did so. We're going to try to retail that same story now th- benefit of research. I think these are great companion pieces and what Alexis about that first episode. Bruce's you know it was you you know telling a story. And that's what you've made your living in professional wrestling wrestler telling stories but this one has all the emotions you know we got to hear you. Happy and sad mad and everything in between is I don't know there's no way we can ever really top that one but with the benefit of the research here. I think we can have some some new information. I should say my kids and my wife gives see me happy sad mad pretty much every day. Well in the first show you talked about how Perry Saturn called you the night after. WCW sold out pay per review. And you mentioned how himself eighty Malingco and been Wa were given their releases. What are your memories of that Falko? How do you think Perry had your number in those days was calling a cell phone to call the office? The have your home number actually called cell phone and I'm trying to remember how the hill I don't know if if Ben Law had given it to him or how he had gotten it actually forget but uh getting that I remember looking at it going pal answer this and stepping out of the production meeting room to take phone call and go it out in the hallway and getting all this information and I thought well hell this could be a nice little cu if it were true. And if they really and truly did have Have the releases. I remember the first thing thinking is are we we being set up here because if someone was under contract at the time you know you had to be very careful about what you said to them and what that contact contact was so my first spidey sense went up and said I kinda prove it. Send me your release and make copy of it will take a look at it and see if we can have any further discussion well. It's interesting that that that's how it all started started because Perry Saturn is the guy that and we'll get to it. You saw a lot of upside in. Well let's remind everybody at the sold out pay per view it's went down. January sixteenth Saint Crispin Wa and Sid vicious wound up in the main event. I lots of people pulled up lame for that one with concussions Jeff Jarrett received a concussion. rationed from a superfly Jimmy. SNUKA A superfly splash off the top of the cage on one of the shows there so he's out Bret Hart still had his head kicked off by Bill Goldberg. So he's out. Lots of folks were out. Nobody knows exactly what this is going to be so they decided to throw Chris. It's been Wa and Sid vicious in there for the world title. A special guest referee is Arne Andersson. Who has we know a former stablemate with crispin wind as Oh personal personal situation in real life said It's even been said that going into this because of the upheaval. Guess yes we should give. The context of that to Bischoff was sent home in September of ninety nine a month later The Lord and Savior would come. Come in Vince Russo. People thought this guy's GonNa pull the nose up. WW quickly loses confidence. They want to replace him and is decided upon by the temporary management get pry that Crispin Wa are rather Kevin Sullivan. Should be the guy in charge of the wrassling book and Chris Benoit and his bunch the rest of the revolution stable if he will and some others don't think that is going to be the best idea for their career career so they're all one by one trying to find their way out of. WCW and Sullivan Solution is. Let's prove that we're not not GONNA do that to Chris that we're not going to punish him because of our real life situation. Let's just put the fucking belt on him so they do. But that perhaps Sullivan allegedly according to the rumor and Innuendo Tell said make sure one of your legs or under the ropes when been Wa flies the move and the pin fall So you were technically under the roads so either way. They put the belt on. Chris has expressed that night and the next day before before the show starts a he his release from W W and hands him over the belt. So now you've got an opportunity to sign the current. WCW view world champion. Just a couple years removed from win. WW signed Bret Hart while he was champion or have that right. Yeah but again. We weren't looking to We were looking at Chris in that way I mean the fact the fact that he was their champion. Actually kind of we didn't care in the end it wasn't so you're you're the cracker box champion. Okay that that didn't mean anything. The talent yes that meant something At least you know three out of the four there was a lot of interest in and that was more the the the championship meant less than less than nothing to us at the time so other than Rick Flair and Chris. I don't think you had an opportunity like like this before to sign that. Obviously it'll be world champion but you had to be jumping at the chance and Mastered Ri- It wound up within Wa Perry Dean Shane. Douglas Andy Cohen and Kidman going to Bill Bush as a group asking for either their release or for Sullivan to be taken off the pudding booking committee of course Conan is saying he speaks for who've been to ray the next day a lot of those loser doors Had An opportunity whether it was proven to psychosis Suray talk with Bill Bush and none of them asked for their release lease but they all say if the rest of that group leaves. They'd like to leave with them at some point or or or how do you get win. This whole wave of people WANNA DOT COM. I guess what I'm trying to ask is does Perry mention three or four guys mentioned like alternatives dudes carried mentioned specifically typically. Ben Wall Guerrero in Malingco and he also made it very clear that he was only speaking thing for those four guys in that other people may ask for their release in that other people may be contacting us but he did WanNa make it clear as as did offer those guys the those four were together in they wanted wanted to come in together but the there was no one else like there wasn't a fifth or sixth or seventh or ten And that were a part of their group. You know what I mean. It was like those four. Were were looking to come as a unit and everyone to the man a and said. Look if you don't Want US least take Ben Wa- because they felt that that Ben would have a pretty tough time there with Kevin Sullivan and Mike Graham so it you know that that was that was constant instant throughout the entire negotiation in every time that we talked just letting us know there are other guys will contact you say. Hey were part of them. They're not and that came from all guys so the day after sold out all these guys meet with Bill Bush. They're trying to work out some sort of a compromise awesome. Keep everybody happy even suggests. I'll just let Kevin Sullivan book Saturday night shows. And you guys don't have to work on. So he has no power and he's trying to appease them and says who would. Did you want to be on a booking committee and they liked Harry Taylor and aren't Anderson Vince Russo. And it feels like there's been a compromise until there's a second meeting when and he tells the group Benoit has to stay because we've written TV about it but everybody else go home in the rumor. Is this happened because someone in the group or maybe everyone in the group and filed a complaint with the Human Resources Department of Time Warner Against Mike Graham and allegedly Mike Grimm took issue with what they were trying among the new Kevin Sullivan. Considering the way everything went down with Nancy and Kevin and Chris and said some things that you can't say in a corporate world world. So when you I have a conversation with these guys about how this release came to be what did they say. How did that that come up or were there concerns? Well there are concerns. Were that with Kevin Sullivan being in charge. which in the fact that it Chris in Mary? Kevin's ex wife and on married yet. I don't know but regardless there were issues there and they didn't feel that Kevin would be fair to them no matter what position that they were in in in addition to that. I think that my Graham allegedly took exception with that and Mike had made threats to 'em and they were like why the hell are we doing this in so in bringing up their concerns. Let's how the a release came about and knows like anybody that wants to release. You can have a release type deal. And they said they wanted their release and and when I was talking to Perry that day it was like we'll get it to you. We'll we'll facts at right now and so K game a number to fax it and soon as she can get her over to us. We can talk in the. I remember going back in and let Vince no and he was very interested. Because there there was interest was interested in Perry in there was interested in Ben Wa For Me Eddie. Guerrero was a big coup because I had always been a fan of Eddie Guerrero and are barred the machines and Thought it was a coup Malinche owes a solid hand. Yeah that was four great talent one fell swoop and if they were available why not grab hold lots of people had ww. I tried to talk having Sullivan decision to make Ben Wa champion champion and He thinks it's the right thing to do. And it's the right thing for business an easy way to send a message everybody and keep everybody happy. But allegedly tesla. Jj Dylan and Mike Graham certainly is heard and said vicious none of them were really for it. But at one point it seemed like Been Wa wasn't even going to accept the title with the idea being if I know I'm leaving. I should do that. But he does accept the title but then turns it back over the next day. I mean then leaving like this really leaves. WW creatively and a little bit of alerts does not it does but then again they shouldn't have offered the releases. Hey you know what I mean to be clear. I don't know that you were totally in the loop on that. But they asked for the release because of the unsafe working conditions. Because Mike Graham mm said if you had done to me what you did Kevin Sullivan our remake champion. I'd have your goddamn handled stay. So they use that to sort of Plateau The conversation with pain we can leave now. No compromise needed. It was her fucking releases. And that's the way it all went down. According to the legend well according to the legend and it was also again according to what we were being told it's time all of that and the WCW offered him the release cycle. Can't you're unhappy in your that unhappy. You don't WanNa be here. We'll give you release and I think that's what they really wanted anyway. Just just to remind everybody team Malingco Shane. Douglas Perry Saturn and Chris Benoit made up group called revolution and we should mention the the two guys that are pretty consistently mentioned with this group. Not Necessarily Ray Psychosis and who've attune but everybody everybody else was billy Kidman and I guess there's three guns. Kidman was apparently promised to big push and they get him to SORTA stick around we. We know he's a wound up in. WWe years later but The other two names are Conan and Shane Douglas. Now it's interesting to know is other four guys. Outside of an appearance here there is like a one off and never actually with contract at W. W. boys except for Conan unchain Douglas and Shane. Douglas had He said a lot about this. He says we talked about but we had. We had to be willing to walk away in order to backup our position. We went into Bush's office and sat down with bill and everybody and took their turn and talking and saying what their concern was came. Time for me talk. A couple of guys kept butting in and started talking and then in the middle of the meeting Perry said to bill. You once told me Bill. You didn't want anybody unhappy in your dressing room and you give anybody anybody that release. That wasn't happy here and bill said I don't remember exactly saying those words and Perry said No. No No. That's what you said. Now go back on your word not be a man. Bill and Bill said I said something similar to that so I'll agree with that in Perry said Okay Fine I want my release is Shane. Douglas says now that that caught me completely off guard because although we had covered our asses on the what if situation. I didn't know we were going in there to tender any resignations Chris Benoit then in spoke up and said that goes for me too and after the meeting went out I went back in and I saw bill. This is the first thing I want to tell you is that I I definitely do not want to leave company. And he thanked me for saying that apologize for the meeting and told them I didn't recognize where the meeting was going and I didn't even get a chance to talk in that. I meeting and I told him my concern. And and if you guys are paying me well into the seven figures to be here over the next three years and I I don't WanNa be a welfare case so then the next night on Nitro. Jj comes and says bill would feel more comfortable. If you guys weren't around he'd like Y'all go home woman who contact you later and he asked. Jj is this a punitive measure. He says no terrific goes back to their hotels packs. Their bags has dinner and they all swear they're going to stick together quote. My whole thing was I had worked with Vance on three different occasions. If there's any weakness at all he'll find bonded and he'll capitalize on it in other words. If we stick together we stand to make a hell of a lot more money than we stand apart. We shook on it. We all hugged on it. We all drink a glass of wine on and toasted to it. We said if anybody got a phone call. We share that information with each other throughout the whole week. I did that then. I got a call from Richard a hung up and called the other guys and they did the same. Do you remember calling Shane. Douglas no he says that the next call against is from Vince Russo. Oh and he says. Where are you and Shane says? I'm in Pittsburgh and he says are you sure about that. Auntchain says wild ally events. He tells them that. A friend of his called from New York and says the boys or an Stanford negotiating negotiating with Vince. But he didn't know which guys so. He asked Shane if he knew where those other guys were and he said No. I haven't spoken to him in a couple of days but I'll call call and find out so. This is directly from Shane Douglas. I called in and asked him where he was. He said he was at his brother's Beach House in Florida. I said are you sure. And and let me tell you what I've heard. And he said Shane. I would never fuck you over like that if we did. That'd be the first guy to called and told you have. My word is a friend member. Others Beach Awesome Florida. so-called Vince back and told him don't buy beans and Florida. He said chain our economy by a liar. No factor up there in Russo. Make suggestion question that he follows and he calls the hotel where Russo suspects they might be and ask for those guys under their shoot name and sure enough all four checked in and have rooms their lot unpack there. Did you ever talk to Shane Douglas about any of this. No Shane Shane. Mine was not a part of that in chain called the office and he may have spoken to Jr.. Some point I don't recall certainly didn't call Shane But I don't recall talking to Shane through any of that again. Jr's office might have. And you know. I'm might have even spoken to Shane at one point. But I didn't reach out to call him to come in any any time during this. Hypothetically clay would that have in your opinion hurt their negotiating power with Vince. Had Shane been a non negotiable for them. I don't think so. It was a non issue because it didn't happen so it was a non-issue any any way you look at it and while yes all four guys wanted to come together and they all wanted the stick together and were making it together together. They all also individually made their own deals and were told US luck. If you want to us you you want one of us you know like whatever it is. We're all cool with that but So yeah I mean. They came together but that same time there were four individuals. The made for individual separate different deals would advance or anybody the in the front office have some sort of Bernard their saddle about chains previous stints with the company or the things. He is shameless. You're asking that like Shane was is a part of this. He wasn't he wasn't a part of the discussion on saying aren't pretend we're not talking about the radicals here buddy. Would you ever consider bringing back. Shane chained uncles. We considering anybody back okay I just I'm just curious 'cause it never happened and on when talked about one for whatever reasons I don't know. Shane wanted too much money in the Times. I didn't negotiate with Shane. So I can't answer that question but I can tell you in in this regard He. He wasn't a part of the equation. Not From my vantage point. So the reason I mentioned this is just a year prior to this back in nineteen ninety nine when he's looking to levy cw WCW winds up with his employment contract and WBZ offers one hundred and fifty grand or so or Shane. WW offers a multiple of that. So of course he went with the guaranteed money from. WCW You the other fellow who is involved in this Standoff with obesity. W IS EERO friend Charles who we know as Conan and we talked about that a lot on our first radicals episode and there was an interesting phone. Call that happened and the result of telling that story got you a little little heat with your old pal Charleston. Thankfully things better these days and I saw been squashed but tell us What you remember about that phone call Well the day of of the infamous CONAN phone call. was you kind of a hectic day and This person had called so many many times and one of the assistance in the office of guy you know could you could you talk to this guy. he's been calling a lot and can't really understand him and these look and I just was. Yeah sure you know it's I don't fuck Tuck it is But yes I'll return the call so that the call is returned and before I could he called back and they put him through to me and it was. You Know Yo Yo Yo this is Kay dog and I know who the Fuck Kedar was. I hadn't and been watching WCW. I didn't know the Conan was going by K.. Dog I knew Conan But I I was not familiar with the K.. Dog Persona and I suggested that he sends some pictures tape in and we'd be happy to take a look at him and that was that after the fact Then Eddie Eddie Guerrero ask me says hey man did Conan call you and and you tell them to send pictures tate. Some now I hadn't heard from Kona. China is now Bangles Eagles K.. Dot Com me and told me this K- dog I said Yeah Talk Some K dog but I didn't talk Conan is now Conan is K.. Dog like Oh fuck misunderstanding. There and when I told this story on a fuck you since then we've had plenty of time sit down and talk about it have a laugh at it and move on from it but at the time it was I had no idea no clue whatsoever and that vidgis said Hey this is Conan O.. Hey CONAN yeah I know gone in is and we could chatted but I had no idea who the fuck K.. Dog was and thought that he was just some. Some guy looked for a job with the name given name. Okay dog send me some pictures tape. We'll take a look really funny that that's how you guys got sideways fears ago We should mention that Eddie has talked about the fact that you know even events doesn't want this group he's already reached out to Paul e about potentially coming back to easy w and he had some feelers out new Japan. Just so they had something lined up but we know none of that actually. It's something that we wind up. Leaving meltzer would report. WCW sent an unconditional release letter to Crispin Wa. They Malingco Honan Shane. Douglas Eddie Guerrero. Perry Saturn on January nineteenth US cancelling the planned meeting between bill. Bush in the group Tom Later that same day so they're all eligible to start on February. I provided that they agreed not saying anything publicly disparaging about ww in agree very nice to sue and those signed Those releases are signed and executed on the twenty fifth so been Wa Simon uh-huh and which is deemed Linka Guerrero and Perry are all free to start with Titan as soon as the coming week allegedly around the same time Russo comes to the office has his own meeting with Bush. Making demands of his own either was released from his contract which had twenty one of the twenty four months remaining and then wound up agreeing styles writer for the show but not working underneath Sullivan gesture. J J just demanding that he be put back in in charge of a booking position for non months without any interruption or interference and at press time else would say no decision was made about that and we know ultimately the direction that goes to bring back Eric Bischoff and try to work with them together. But in this crazy moment of Hokey pokey not just with the boys choice but with the office. Anybody bring up Vince Russo. For what well just perhaps Russo. Coming Back No god no and add some. You said earlier about Vince Russo. Either checking at the hotel and saying the guy's registered under the real names. That wasn't the case. They were not registered under their their names or the ring names or their real names or they registered under under assumed names and I went down and got the rooms. Gimmick names that you gave the Gimmick Gimmick Name Job Evens and you know Matt Burns from Hershey it lent. I'm from Hershey so that you know when I hear that I just have to laugh at it because it's not true. How much money paying interest on your credit cards every month too much too much? Consolidate your credit cards into one payment a lower fixed straight and start saving. It's easy with a credit card. Consolidation loan from light string rates are as low as five point nine five percents. APR With Auto Pay. And that's much lower than the national average trait on credit cards. Which is over twenty percents? Apr You can even get alone from five to ten thousand even one hundred thousand dollars with absolutely no feats you can get your money as soon as the day. Lie and livestream believes that people with good credit deserve a better loan experience. That's exactly what they deliver. I I gotTa tell you man. I'm a big fan of this. I've used it And don't take my word for check out this real customer testimonial Moneo here. I heard the radio hat and thought it was worth looking at. I was a little skeptical because the number done anything like this online before. The migrate surprise. The loan process was very are simple and easy to navigate through. I wish all loans for this efficient and just now for our listeners. She can apply and get a special interest rate discount and save even more than the only way to get the special discount has to go to livestream dot com slash wrestled. That's L. I.. G. H. T. S. T. R. E. M. I am dot com slash wrestle. Of course this is subject to credit approval. The rate include the half a percent auto pay discount terms and conditions apply offers are subject to change without notice visit livestream dot com slash wrestle for more information so Let's talk about how the meeting set up. You know you said that These guys houser coming into town and they're going to be at this hotel back in the day. I think we've talked about the events would bring them up his office and the whole Limo and all that since we're here under assumed names I'm assuming were wanting to Not Get ourselves in trouble says it feel like something we want them walking through the office. Four said you guys just like rent a conference concerned with a hotel or where did you guys me. Why met with them? Initially the I did have a conference room at the hotel I met with them there and then after hours brought brought him over to the office and by that point they were gone from WCW. They had their full releases. And really you know. It really didn't matter that much other than looking for the surprise and shock value of at all all but we just waited until I went and had dinner with those guys at the hotel we set conference room and talked and then brought him over Jr.. And I met with them and then each one of them individually met with Vince alone. So it was. It was after hours it was it was regular Hours for us but after hours for the rest of the office crew up probably brought him about eight or nine. Let's let's dig get into that a little bit. What's the context of the meeting? That happens in each location. You know what was sort of the gist has just get to know. Yeah everybody talk about you. I want in the world's going on just tire kicking or you guys get into the nitty gritty at the hotel. No you know for the initial meetings. It was hey guys we'd love to have you and what would you like to do This is Kinda company we are. This is how we work. This is kind on what our schedule is. And this is how we do our television. This is how we do our live events and kind of a free a Steve Free meeting a a get to know you out of the group. The only one that I really do A little bit was Ben wa now Eddie Eddie and I Eddie and his brothers Hector in Chabot. I was very close with so head a little bit of an end there on the guerrero side of things things but didn't know Dane didn't really know Perry that well So when Jr.. I came over again. gave him more of an introduction into what we're all about showed around the office little bit and I remember going in and asking Benson d want. You won't come. Manages meet with everybody. Or how do you want do it. He says asked them how they'd like to do it. And I got four guys together Adler Alyssa Diaz WanNa meet together. Do you guys want to have individual meetings. And they agreed that they would like to meet with Vince alone individually each one. That's what they did. I came out of it and we had our terms and went to work in A. What do you think I mean obviously the the dinners is you. Jr In these guys is. Vince has moved not to go to dinner and have them come to him after sort of a art of ordeal all five of the O or is this more just you know he was busy shit that day and we were killing time till he was free busiest shit. No dinner was just me and the guys and I just went over more than anything. Dinner taint him into talk to them and Just kind of lay of the land. Get as much information as I could and give give them as much information is they needed before they went in and did have their meeting Saw was all social. That was. Hey guys are guess Let's have something to eat because it's GonNa be a long night and take it from there but doing it later on in the evening was for ease of everybody's schedule and you know even today. Vince takes meanings up until two o'clock in the morning. So it's is what Hollick always they're working that's in our world that's not unusual. Hang on hang people come into the office two in the morning to meet with. Yeah those air till two thirty. She hit the Lord. Bless you talk to me a little bit about Jim. Ross else you know anytime. These guys story comes up. Jr always says Oh. Signed those guys and I feel like you said hey you went to dinner with with Jr and all these guys you were quick. Sino took them was Jim. Was Jim not involved in this at all. Because even in the Indian and the newsletters meltzer would say they met with McMahon and Jim Ross. Pretty pretty well came to terms but we're told to keep everything quiet and you're saying I mean not the did me they met with Jr.. And I when we took him over to the office initially and they did meet with Jr But the terms and all of that was done one on one with bents. I wasn't in the room. Jr Wooden in the room Jr.. I I set out with the other. Three guys bullshit with them one by one and afterwards a brief by vents. Here's here's what we're GONNA do with each one okay. Let's talk about the individual meetings Did Vince have different impressions coming out of those meetings than he did going in like before he met with these guys is you and he sort of talk about what their potential upsides were and what you saw forum you know. Sometimes we've heard Vince can fall in love with a talent talent. Does he see very side or incite. Damn look at him. We can make a mint with this guy. Or what's that look like. What was his impression before the meeting? and was it different after the me you know I think that obviously he was Aware Ben Wa- because Chris has been up for few times uh-huh tryouts over the years so he was familiar with Chris. Benoit's and Perry Saturn was somebody that you know he had seen in Perry had a very unique league gluck in a completely different style. Kind of a quirky style but Perry was unique man. Perry was a was a stud and I think that of everybody when we looked at we looked at Perugia. Having a huge upside to him Any Guerrero from early on I used to call Mexican Shawn Michaels 'cause he could do everything and again deems deigned in was the utility guy. Dean was guy that you could put it in the ring with anybody and have a great match so when you're looking at box office. The box office that we felt was was going to be Perry and Ben Wa into a lesser extent. Any and and the Dean will be a great guy to have have on the roster jazz at the you know that was the extent of it and yes we talked about Benson. We gave our opinion. What we thought the the pros and cons of each guy were and the the one thing thing I'd laugh at? The most is the first time when Vince met. Eddie we walked into Vince in her office and he looked at me and says he so tiny Meaning any because he was anyone the biggest guy in the world. The biggest fight biggest fight in the room. Big His heart but yeah he's is one largest guy in the world talks with me a little bit about you know these meetings with Vance these legendary. We've heard about them for years. Everybody probably at that dinner. I'm just guessing asked. What should we expect? What does he like? What doesn't he like? Tell us about events. What advice do you guys like that? Bu You know just don't bullshit him be you and lay your cards on the table You know ask make your ask the if you gave them the exact same advice. I give everybody in life if you start off negotiations in you. Don't ask the question and the answer is no until you ask the question. The answer is no nobody answered yes to questioned that they weren't asked and and I just said you know what I mean. Could it out there on the line. I he's GonNa make the determination is to what we can afford to pay you on your downsides excellent. The downside guarantees to him. What have you but Vance at that time with certain talent? Dense made deals was up to JR myself to go to the lawyers. And get it all done but vince made. The deals then says one who agreed to the money. Vince was the one who agreed to the terms. So for talent come in at that level they had to they had to go through vents. And and figure that out so the you know for that much. It's all look just go. Be You delamore Yar telling which passion is telling what you WANNA do. He'll tell you if you can do that. And and he'll give you the magic wand tell you the wave it then you tell him what you want what you see in the cards arts fall where they may so these guys go in one by one. I'm assuming they're all just sorta waiting and bullshitting in the lobby or you. Jr hanging in there with them. or You just drop them off get the fuck out later no hanging out in Jeremiah losses and one by one. They go in to meet with the wizard when they come out. Is it almost like you've been in the principal's office. Hey what happened. Added ago that type of deal. Just were you happy. You know everything everything good and and so on and so forth that was it and we didn't. I didn't discuss terms of anybody that night. Other than Bentson city. Canada said. Here's where we're at will bring them all along and take it from there. Obviously you guys are typing of contracts. That night but Vince at lease goes over the broad sort of bullet points while the talent like. Here's roughly what I need from you. And here's roughly what I'm willing to pay. And they go back and forth like that. Yeah so how soon after meeting guys get contracts drawn up and and everybody's on pretty much next day so got it out there. Everybody and and I don't think we had deal owning any of them had agents just nice we gotta deal directly with talent talent and it was pretty fast process so they all signed before they leave or do you guys Phoenix to or facts to home or what time now they. They went home the next day. So we just got it all to him and normal business meltzer says all have been asked to work story on publicly that they were leaning towards going to Japan and they had been low balled by the WWF. Negotiations fell apart. Originally the the company wanted them to keep negotiations secret but word of they're going to Connecticut Lake doubt which is where the negotiations falling apart storyline was created. Lincou even went so far to an online interview saying he was going back to new. Japan was still denying Even the people who thought they were as friends ever meeting with the company and meltzer would say this story in. Many ways is reminiscent of what has become the quote unquote new work in wrestling. Which is providing thing inside information? Both true and false having a mixed up together with enough true shown the end to make people believe the false true might be true as well and the largely design against describing his own Dirty which is false but because he got some guests something right that it must be true when he's just making it up so you guys didn't ask them to are not admit that they had signed. I did know pretty. Thick would have suggested that. I don't know the name by suggested that. I think that's probably something that a people like to keep their business private and fielded. It's nobody's business. What their business is and choosing not to share that information? You know the the entitlement of of some people think just because you're a public figure that you have to disclose everything about everything that you do is not factual some people choose soon to be private about some things. These guys chose to be private about it and didn't WanNa get out so I respect that missile. Whatever the entitled people think that they should know? Well we'll that's our problem they gotta deal with. I'm not arguing that any that when I do want to ask though is Emma creative standpoint when you guys are having them sit in the crown and they're doing so January thirty first and technically the free to go to work here on February first You kind of want to make it. Look like they're a surprise and one of those guys doing here and all of that right I I mean if you just come absolutely so there's nothing wrong with him. Quote Unquote Keeping K.. Fame saying we're going to new Japan because they want their arrival to be a surprise as far the storyline Alama and again. That's their choice but for for us they weren't legally nothing stopped him from you know coming coming in enjoying a show. I've always loved that work around What what are their plans were discussed for their debut was always to be done even as a group and in the crowd or did you guys kick around other potential ideas? We did kick around other potential ideas but thought that it's this the four them coming on the four guys is a group the hills at word. I'm looking for Oh God damnit faction thank you you know coming in is is a faction was Kinda cool coming from the other guys. The other grew now. You know four guys coming over from there one of them last been seen as you know the champion on the other channel and for them to come in as a group had more impact impact than individually coming in and coming up with four different stories. So let's bring him in is a group and then from there we would kind of figure you're out where each one of them we're GONNA fit in the whole landscape so it was. You had them in a psych. Okay we can make an impact with all four of. Let's do it and then we'll we'll figure it out from there it's Interesting to think what could have been. Let's talk about what actually did happen. January thirty first two thousand goes down at the civic arena in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania You know we've heard before that sometimes you guys would would tell the talents come over later or you Hahnemann a bus so nobody in the back Psalm. Tom What's the plan with these guys. Do you remember I got half Shit. You don't for from these guys. I think we can. I kept him hidden and and then sent him in through the front door. Here's your tickets and come on in and those that new new from from our end But it was. Yeah it was trying to keep it as real life as you possibly possibly could so the less people had no the better I don't know that that's necessarily the best way to do business. Sometimes but when you have people that are intent on you know spoiling surprises the people that watch. TV shows and things like that. Then you know you go to those extremes. Sometimes I think there's too much there's too much credit given to that world stock a little bit about Sort of the rest of the the Locker Karuma power they received when these guys come in. I mean obviously at this point the quote unquote war is well in hand. It's just just dominating. Ww this point these guys you know for whatever reason had been the backbone WCW W but not the tippy top guys Evan ashes famously. Referred to a group of these guys as Vanilla midgets. What's the preconceived notion from the locker room? To the best year recollection of this group the best semi rocket election of the guys at noon were all more than happy to see them. There I think that there was a genuine feeling of open arms especially especially especially for Chris and Eddie That seemed to have the most most friends in the locker room that people knew and that it's a they embraced and welcomed them. So that would it wasn't these are all for good guys. The people genuinely liked so it wasn't that weren't controversial weren't you know didn't have bad reputations anything like that so the the overall consensus was shit and we have four fucking guys can go. This is awesome. Well as we know. We're going to see him here End Up being at ringside at the beginning of the show they're brought in a storyline France with Cactus Jack. WHO's trying to get them a job? With the company. After they walked out in Atlanta and in the process sitting at ringside. They're hit hit by road dog and all four attack and lay out the tag champs the new age outlaws they also beat up the main street posse in their turn down for a the job by triple H and Stephanie. Were right smack. Dab in the middle of the McMahon Helmsley era at this point and CACTUS. Jack is pleading case saying How much it would improve the product with time devoted to them instead of the mainstream posse? It finally they in the show by All of them attacking and Lang out triple h and as a reminder this raw got a six point five nitro two point seven. Was the reaction backstage out how I was the segment received. It was exciting and I think that there was a big part of the locker room looking at this is the great. We've got four. You know guys that can be slid right in any spot on the card and deliver starting tomorrow just because of their ability to perform so overall I would say it was excitement in. There was excitement from them excitement from our locker room. They were these guys coming in and saying all right this is going to be some good shit It we were pleased from a from a crater sampling. Oy I'm curious you know how you've told us before that you really fell in love with any guerrero here and the you know maybe been wall was most on businesses Radar do you know who pat favored. He sees somebody in this group and say this is the star impact. Wasn't really even that involved at this point in time so I really don't remember during during this time you know it was The writers had it come in and we had we had them in involved and Jr.. And I were doing Talla relations during this time so impact had had retired from the company. Pat came in and did different things things from an agent standpoint did TV and things like that but as far as him Wayne and on talent he wasn't in that position anymore. Well I just know. Even though he's not in that position now it talk ear off about how Great Dolf Ziegler etc etc.. He's got his favorites and I just didn't know if one of these guys was on his radar I mean Pat. Pat Liked them all because they were all workers and so I mean the fact that they they can all go and have great matches in the ring that that was attractive. Everybody Miss World Riots. Believe that Ben Watt received in the neighborhood of four hundred thousand dollars a downside guarantee and the other three and the two hundred fifty thousand dollar range. It really isn't a major issue this year because WBF business this is huge and there are no signs of not remaining that way virtually every wrestler. This past year earned significantly more than their downside and the case of all four the the downside figure would be significantly less than what they earned a WCW. So once again. Vince ran has sold the OL- you'll make more with me and clearly works out creatively after eighty Guerrero and and And and Chris Benoit and arguably the other two as well but in a traditional national sense. It's pretty common to to think of guys you know go onto from a guaranteed contracts I contract for less money than if you believe in yourself and you believe in what you can. Do you have an opportunity to do it. All of them made more money than they were making. WCW WCW so they realize their potential and were able to go out and do it so was good. Move on on. Everyone's part that that's what always you can someone in your game all right when when you're talking about mortgages and things do you want to salesman says you know what I'm comfortable with what you're GonNa pay me monthly in good with that or you want the guy says you know what you don't have to pay amy monthly I WANNA earn it. Just give me a higher commission on all the mortgages that I close. Sure you won't guy that wants to go out and close mortgages make money for you and for him and or her so in that case someone that has confidence or guys that just won't sit back and collect a paycheck every month. That's the same amount. Okay that takes care of heating that takes care of the water that takes care of a mortgage In check it off. Okay well I did as little as I had to do to earn that money. You want someone that's going to go out there and say let me have the ball Or fight for it. Draw our money in actually make more money than they ever thought they could. Well I hate Steven Singer. You heard me. I Hate Steven Singer. Guy Philippe probably been hearing about. Especially if you've been to philly probably seeing the billboard hurt him on the radio but I hate Steven Singer. Does that even mean Steven Singer is the most hated jeweler in America. Why because other jewelers just can't stand him because because he has the best valentines gift ever and we're excited to tell you about it Stephen Singer something to wrestle bringing you? The Best Valentine's Day gift ever listened to this is picture it. 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We'll see the debut of all forecast. Why was it decided to name the group the radicals whose ideas that and what do you think about adding Z.? I just I didn't like it and I don't know why I can't put my finger on it. I just thought doc as thought they didn't need it a just let him be Eddie. Guerrero Perry Saturn Crispin on the Milenko. No no no tell us what your name should have been you. You have hysterical bad names so I'm sure you can take a one. The Ford did with attitudes Dune Skateboards Cowabunga. I don't know I just but but it was this. It was it was like this is a radical thing in this is you know tied to Mick Foley and by God. They'll be radicals Tom who were who were guys went back into wartime in in the You when you look at civil war you looked great war well. There were always radicals the were so far off to one side and and while they were often viewed as radicals were probably the most logical will of any of warring factions actions. And the name just stuck and thank God. It didn't stay for long. Yeah let's talk about smackdown. The Best of three series between deacs on the radicals if the radicals win triple h would have to agree to sign them to WBF contract contract and a story line is if they were to lose then They have to earn their way into the WWF. In the first match Lima Linka Loses Tax Pot and a lot of people may not know this but there is a little bit of history between these two Danes father. Boris winco actually actually trained. Sean wellman expert here wrestler. Right exactly. Boris Maximilian on bench. Malingco in if you WANNA see old school great he'll promos look up. Boris Malingco and if you can find Boris Laurus Malingco put in Mr TV announcer and find anything from Houston. Milenko used to cut the absolute greatest money-making promos ever in his program with Wa- mcdaniels Drew nothing but money and to this day. Think about a man. Boris was hot from about nineteen sixty nine. Like nine thousand nine hundred seventy one seventy two in Houston forty years ago and to this day I was in Houston and I went out to dinner on Saturday night with some old friends in there was a couple apple people in a table next to us and they looked over and they knew I was in. They talked about Paul Marsh and Boris Lincoln. The promos used to go back and forth That's how strong and how impactful that Malinche goes promos or tremendous worker great trainer But one of the true characters and and long lasting characters of this business that is often just too often forgotten and not given his do a second match ends up being the outlaws in a non title match against Saturn in Guerrero meltzer would ride during the afternoon. The plan was to do a singles match for Saturday against one of the outlaws because Guerrero was a few weeks away from being ready to return stemming from an elbow injury they somehow wound up doing the tag match anyway in Guerrero in delivering a frog splash appears to have seriously injured his elbow and it took him nearly fifteen minutes to get him out of the ring causing him to lose the match. He was scheduled to win. And thus making the newcomers. Oh into against the WWF stars so any Guerrero has talked about this in the past that you guys sort of pressured him into wrestling before he was ready. Just because the right thing for the angle and he wound up hurting himself What do you remember about this this match? And and and his early return and his unfortunate injury. I don't remember pressuring anybody and Think Eddie was nominated. Go Man now I can do it I can do it. I'm good Doing the magic and I think that's the way with a lot of guys that they don't want to miss out so they'll tell you that they're good when they may not be good Not Going to pressure anybody go out there and get hurt and do something like that and I don't think that we knew how serious he is. His injury was So that But the match. Yeah just Scott sought when it happened and offered an frog slash Nettie. Just rollover like pinned send me. Let's go Hong. Because he knew he was screwed at that point so any Saturn were supposed to to win and it would have been one one going into the triple h been Wa- mass aside the series. I guess that makes sense a third and final match as we said the WWF champion triple h versus the WCW champion all the unofficially crispin and been wom extra blades tap applecross face but no referee sees it so triple h winds up hitting the pedigree to win the match the ultimately the X.. It's a three zero sweep over the radicals on the first night. In which in hindsight. And if you go back and listen to our first absurd I just could not believe banana. Knowing the context of well that was the original plan for the creative brings a little more context to the situation. what did you think. And I you know. In hindsight you could of never predicted the The way this injury would happen. Did they make the wrong call. Having anti lose since he was injured or I mean it really was a bad thing for the show in hindsight was an aunt. Well again I think he can turn any negative into a positive and it. It wasn't what we had planned but at the same time it's it gives them another obstacle though RECOM- and nobody was calling that because I think the stereotypical dirt she riders and Clint from her. She would say look. You have two hands. WC Guy's GonNa win everything the first day because does well. That's what I like to see happen. versus trying to do something a little different. Were they get fucked and you wanna see them overcome something to you actually come back in. That was the plan for to be two to one Not Three Oh but shit happens and sometimes you just gotTa go with it. You should mention a few days after this one is on the usually popular. Show Tom the law and He's asked hey why don't they make title versus title and Chris says because the WW title didn't mean anything had no credibility to start with because the way they destroyed it so didn't mean anything when I want it and He went on to say he was disappointed that he never had an opportunity to work with Brad Hart or Ric flair that was promised to him many times in ww and He felt like He. I really wanted to wrestle. Those guys considers them two of the greatest world champions ever the also says that when he left the building on the seventeenth he knew he was going no no matter. What and Douglas was pushing everyone to wait a week because Russo asked him to but Benoit said just the way we were kicked out of the building? He knew no matter what the decision from anybody else would be. He would never wrestle there again. Did you ever have a conversation with him about just how frustrated he was at the end of his. W W Tom Yeah because he was very frustrating wandered out. He just didn't think the Chris would have gone anywhere Other than back there so it was a a big frustration and he felt that It was over and that was not someplace that he wanted to work. No matter who was in charge I I think you could have. They could put him in charge and he wanted to wanted to work there just because there was so much distrust and he's right by that point that that championship campionships meant less than nothing. And okay. Yeah I'm the champion champion. Of what the champion have a guy sitting behind a table pointing fingers like Steinbrenner and Seinfeld it. It had been reduced to you. It's just been reduced. Nothing and there was still some really great talent that was there was over there but they eh. The glory years had passed them by and they were on that that big decline. Let's talk a little bit about now. Chris Jericho because these guys are all friends with him famously. You know we know the relationship between each one. They all had similar path where you know they were all in a CW and then wound up WCW and now they're in the wwe but he beat him there. You know by several months and he wasn't off to the very best start but you got assume they were talking ahead of time as you ever have a conversation with Jericho about any of these guys on the Sarah. Chris was excited to have them there because Chris enjoyed working with. Ben Wani enjoyed working with Actually enjoyed working with all You know Chris was Chris's always funny because he in Ben Wa. We'll talk about it. Hit me as hard as you want. Anywhere on my body was doesn't matter. Just don't hit me in my mouth nose or my eye and we're good to go and and they beat the hell out of each other so it was Guys that love that and these four guys coming in that had no the problem go in there so they were all tough as nails and and could all go. Were they all traveling together right away. Yeah yeah the they all traveled and just hung out together and just quickly integrated themselves into the system. Well let's run through some of the accolades. Says we know Eddie. Guerrero one time world champion. TWO-TIME INTER-CONTINENTAL TWO-TIME EUROPEAN ONE. Tom United States four times tag champ twice with Java once with the three once with the jury he is the eleventh triple crown winner. He is the sixth Grand Slam winner. Perry Saturn A champion his own right. One one time European to Tom hard-core. Here's been Wa one time world heavyweight champion four time I see three time. US One time tank champ with Kurt. Angle Eagle team that was three time tag champ with Jericho or world tag champ. Rather Jerko once edge twice a wins the Royal Rumble Baleno Four. He is the twelfth round winner and then all day Milinko to Tomlin heavyweight champion so all of these guys will go on to capture. WWe Me Gold and it's hard to argue that they weren't successful But something else that we We've started to do here on the show that we didn't do way back when and We're we're lots of follow up questions about the topic in particular We've got a ton of questions here about the radicals. We'll try to get through as many as can't hear but before we do need to tell you that are all POW. Josh has supported our show from day. One and so says Chernoff is a monthly satirical wrestling new show sort of in the vein of the daily show. The soup from a humorous look back at the months biggest headlines to a man on the street interaction with fans bands for the more straightforward deep dive for the specific topics like the Internet's effect on wrestling or wrestling fans fascination with jumping chip one constant theme throughout the Shell Sarcasm. You might even say sarcasm Chernoff superpower that is even a shirt over it so sure enough dot com a new episode airs. Everyone on five nineteen and you might as well go ahead and find this youtube channel as well. It's youtube dot com forward slash. So Oh says Chernoff we encourage our listeners to subscribe to that Youtube Channel for exclusive interviews. They got all the biggest names in wrestling including Bucatini. He does the roads. But do so. Darby Alan Brad. Hart and J. F. Ricky steamboat the young bucks Tony Shivani and our own eric. Bischoff in Bruce Prichard. You can even find a Josh Urnov on facebook. Twitter aunt so says sure enough you've probably seen him hosting a lot of different stuff For fighting including star cast dance else. He's drank comedic actor nominated for awards he also launched the campaign. Hashtag this Jerry Lynn. Which is kind of fun so check come out associated Chernoff dot com and you might also want to go ahead and subscribe to the Youtube Channel? YOUTUBE DOT COM forward associates showing off had fight dot atv as where he can find so sure enough so progress. The Josh on his new his new venture big fan has stuff. Great Guy. And I'm I'm sure you've felt the same Weber's absolutely thank you for chiming in. Let's get to the questions here from the radicals And this this is a fun show for me because we had so much content that we covered the first time followed up with the facts here but everybody still wants to know why the radicals lose right off the bat well again because everyone expected them to win. And I think that would you you look at that. You look at the expectations of the audience. You bring in somebody new. I think that everybody's all well they're gonNA win automatically and then when they don't it's Senator Mitch got fucked and you're rooting for them. Even more to overcome it's it's kind of simple and a lot of ways and had they won the same people that would that are saying. Oh well God damn stupid for them to lose. We'll be saying oh so predictable so can't please everybody. Yeah it is Something you and I argued a lot about but I don't think you know when you you debuted. Goldberg had lose on his first night. But assist me Dolphin domin rights when Raffles debuted. I remember being a monumental in pretty big jump for the group but I'm I'm concerned with how they got there that anyone call and ask Straight up Bruce. I'll make the jump but before I do I need to know how big's tastes Dick James Riots in the original episode. Bruce said the he thought a Saturn is the number two guy. I didn't really come to fruition which well never mind he too wants to know about Batista but Matt Shanks has an interesting interesting question. He wants to know if anybody else comes up in these conversations with these four guys is Ramos Stereo His name into the conversation. You've told us you know that for whatever reason. Shane never came back. That's a non answer. You told us about the phone call Conan. You told us about these four. What about Ray? Anybody have a conversation with ready to come up at all not at this time no and there were so many rumours out there. I think there was a lot of bullshit in rate was one of those that had a pretty good solid deal. WCW that man. He probably would have been a fool to leave. It's time he had. He had a great eight deal and he had a nice gig. And I don't think that that would be very to left that time. Does the differences in the locker. Locker Room come up. I mean they'd obviously don't know what the what the culture of the WBF locker room is. They know what Jeremiah tells them but maybe nothing more does the sonar a toxic culture of the WWe locker room early permeate the conversation just dominate their motivation for leaving. I don't know that it was necessarily the locker room as much as it was the management. And where they had been placed in the overall scheme of things To them it was all about will be given a fair opportunity. So they didn't feel they had a fair opportunity in WCW WCW and just wanted the chance to shine in Chevy what they could do Bad Money Slam wants to know how fucking ugly or men's dress shirts at this time. Don't tell me you didn't like those in Perry Saturn see-through shirt and shit come well the parasite shirt and the crisp and Washer. These are both directly out of your closet. I haven't been damn right. They were tell everybody your favorite shirt macos. You wear some loud shirts and have some of them do but you're a big fan. The Fox's name Harbor Graham Graham yes I guess. She's got Robert Graham shoes to purple ones. That's what I look like cal from Modern Family Family Charlie thrower wants to know if task was ever considered being a part of this group not necessarily as a fifth member on the jump from WCW you but they're similar EC W background and They're all coming to the company at the same time. was there ever any creative sort of kicked around for what if they were together absolutely zero. No none that was again these guys coming over and even even them coming in his group was only meant to be for a certain amount of time the Strait shootin. La Was. Do you think Saturday. And Milenko were better individually or as a tag team. I think both are incredible. Workers and I think that de Milenko was not the most flamboyant worker in the world and he didn't have a lot of color a lot of personality however I could watch Milenko work all day long because he is just a A fabulous technical wrestler and does really innovative wrestling moves in. I just I love to watch it I like to watch amateur wrestling so so When you you look at that I think that I think that they were both good on their own. Interesting question here from Tony with hindsight being twenty twenty but you have booked this differently for their big. TV TV debut or perhaps like a group jumping and making an impact like like we saw with nexus or the shield race. Impasse no right side being twenty twenty. I don't know whether to change a thing other than any not not getting hurt. I think I asked us a different way before. Arrest Historian writes. Who'd Vincent man like the most out of the four after meeting him? We know a paid more. But does he still think that. Been Oiseaux going to be the tippy top goddess. He's the best I think he liked. Eddie Best Guy after meeting them because personality was Eddie turned on the charm. And I think that he he walked out of their thinking And he's My guy the fun question here From my woolen how would at this angle have looked. Had you actually brought in coney on Shane Douglas. Would you have done the same type of debut or something different. You know what I don't know that it would have have been impactful if we brought him more people. Because now you've got your spreading that spotlight now so I just don't think it would as impactful concussed Jones right saying that. A piss off sorry very easy for me to say when the rock logged that Great Bromo saying he would knock that crooked straight on the rocks going off and and and saying things like this. I assume that's something they get talk about beforehand right or is it. Just say assuming they're now I've got a pretty good idea and again that's that's what makes shit real and good For Naci rights with plans to change the names of the four radicals or give them a gimmick. Must like you did when you named Kerry von Erich the Texas Tornado. Or perhaps she could have done the Canadian crippling instead of Crispin Wa No I it was so fresh in each one of those guys They did have an identity in had had had an identity. So let's they were the exception to the rule. Lots of people have posted this. I'm before but I'll ask it here in either late ninety five or early ninety six and I think it's not a five in fact Crispin will have to try out with the guys and he. Here's even managed by Ted Debut Aussie. Why didn't it work out for him to come back then? Why didn't it work out for him to come? I'm back or to start then. Why did you not sign Crispin Back then. I think that Chris was looking for something. Eighteen different back then in. Chris felt that he wanted to go Japan and he wanted to do other things still at that time and didn't want to be fulltime with us and. I don't think the Chris had even had less personality back. Then so it wasn't wasn't really good fit. Andrew wants to know I have to imagine. A Jerko was over the moon when he found out a whole roster of his friends are coming over especially with the early rough. Roddy ad that we do you remember how he found out or what is reaction was found out the same way when he showed up Jay The whole oh wants to know when flair and Arn came to the company and no one was there ever a discussion of putting together a version of the horsemen. Since you now had Milenko and been while there's well no I never considered Ben Wall in Milenko horsemen to me the horsemen Schmitz was flare telly. Yarn Olien JJ in all except Windham in that group but any other any other version of that it was is so watered down after that. No Guy that God though Brett bar whilst an hour any other members ever discussed I joining the radicals. No talk about two thousand here. Jim Ryan the fully loaded an unforgiven two thousand events. It's Crispin Wa was given the title before the matches were restarted and then the rock retained was their plan to put the belt on. Ben Want Two thousand. Was this just to test out crowd reactions. Sion's did what did like a dusty finish with Ben Wa winning the championship and then you didn't go with him. Was it to just test crowd reactions. Was it women. We've heard before the Vince locks the test people to wasn't on TV or was it. These were pay per view events for twenty nine ninety a five on Sunday evenings really. Yes Sir yes a car local cable. Why the Hell we do that? What the Hell's the name of that thing? Hey PERV Yod Damn I and we even remember. I don't remember that at all Murphy Ryan. was there ever a consideration to give them a mouthpiece they may have lasted longer as a a group as Eddie was still not a top guy in the rest. Were relatively weak with the Mike. At that Point Mick Foley was gonna their mouth piece in the beginning the main but were you know you guys weren't necessarily in the The manager business but would never even be considered for a group like this. When you know you've got great great talent and it's a big group and it's a coup got them where slick when you need him Not as baby faces. I think that it was almost. Okay guys if you're GONNA make it you're going to have to develop personalities Lee's on your own and let's give him a shot. Maybe it was just that they didn't didn't have shot it. WCW You see w the big clue of always had about this debut is why not the royal rumble. You know we. We know that the R- happen on the twenty third. You met with them ahead of time. It would have been something you would have had to work very very quickly quickly to pull off but in New York City man place. What a win fucking bananas? Did you think you had too much stacked in there already with with such a super card and there's lots of great stuff on there with the Hardee's and the Dudley's for double tables and you know a brutal match with Foley and Hunter and Tasr. This debut was already to loaded Did you think it would take away. Or what did you just have enough time to really make the make the come together. We didn't really have have enough time plus without that it would be more impact doing it on television. I think some people would have looked for it would have got lost not had the same impact if he had done them in the rumble. Why does it make sense for a guy like has the debut on pay per view but not the radicals differ situation situation? caz One has one coming over. It just was a completely different situation. We had been able to do vignettes on TASR and there was not not a rumbling. I I don't know how much you're GonNa WanNa ask answer about this. But it's literally every other question Buffalo Phil probably the best way. Pretend Vincent listening houses Bruce Really feel about ww erasing Benoit from history. I think that it advocates the right thing to do Agana. It's it's tough when you look what he's done. And how do you measure his his life life when you measure. What what he's done It's it's is beyond horrible and I don't believe that someone that does that warrants that recognition. I just don't I agree with. Its yet history yesterday. And there's some ways we cover it here But that doesn't mean that I in any way shape performed condone or I just think that you you don't memorialize someone that stunned. Something is is horrible and tragic is what Ben Wanted. Let's let's ask a different question that we got a lot from hot rod. WHO's that the wasn't to give Dean Malingco a ladies Man Gimmick sly crisp and why he got over niece? WWW for being an outstanding technical wrestler. Who didn't need a gimmick and basically we got that question about every five questions questions? People are fascinated with this double ho seven gimmick that you guys came up with. This feels like a Brian idea. Deny Dea of no. It's not okay dean. Linka says guys got a great idea. What if I was a lady ladies span then jest and then it's kind of like it's a good looking guy? Yeah why not see. I had a very dry rice sense of humor tranches baby and it's like come on. Why not? Maybe that'll bring out more of his personality. Instead of the guy I of a hundred holds or whatever it is Matthew on some of the four who jumps. Who did Bruce thing but become come? WB Champion. I not all time best and things like that but who would get. I thought it I thought Saturday would jump to the front of the pack. Just based on his size and looking looking uniqueness yeah I thought Perry had it translates wants to know. was there any one in the back. Who thought bring the radicals over was a bad had idea? You know we've talked about when the end of Yo came over. There were certain people who spoke up and said I don't know if this is a good idea. Anybody say boo about this no now from actually I think more people were like goods. Thank God we find some of the good guys. You know what I mean is like when undertaker K lose knew him they were like off. Thank God we brought this one over instead of you know. The comparisons were made to sit in other people and Overall it was pretty damn positive they were. They were thankful they were there. Anthony wants to know if there was any sort of hazing during the transition. Lots of guys is have told stories about when they're the new guys in the locker room. Somebody wants to pull the real birth fuck around with them. We've heard some stories Even and gals like Jerry lawler where they would crown and things like that any hazing on with these guys that you remember. No nothing I ever heard of concussed Jones Roseanne the WB ever consider bringing in Nancy to be with the radicals or been ause Solo. NOPE The count wants to know. What is Bruce Really? Think of. Eddie's mullet cool man like Chicano cool channel talking by It was he was so retro. That worked all right. So there you go. There is your radicals revisited. Hope you'll go back and listen to the original episode. There's so much emotion in it back then we a little less focus so we continued the story about their individual careers. I'm sure we'll get to that another time but I was excited to go back and revisit visit this one man really pay a wash to it because it was such an important show in our shows history and next week man something we have been trying to do for a long time. Put It on the poll. A lot and Man She just never won. The Pole. Shearing Martell will be our topic next week. We lost her way. Way Off uh-huh She passed away on June fifteenth. Two thousand seven the next week we're going to be celebrating her birthday because She was born on February eight so next Friday February seventh. We'll be celebrating Sherri Martel and what a character she was man she was everywhere I did everything and she was one of the One of the people I grew up watching man. She was such a big part of my fan domestic yet all the different incarnations we saw her with the World Wrestling Federation and then of course we remember she was in WCW and thankfully we got to see her go into the WB Hall of fame take her rightful place in two thousand six. I'm looking forward to talking about sharing so much history with Sherry and Sherry Revolution lies from she was the last of the old school. Women Wrestlers That came from man came from the bottom worked away up up and she also changed the way that women valets were looked at in the business too and she could hang with with the best workers in the business and just incredible incredible story. Well we're GONNA have small fine later in the month on February twenty honey. I tune in for no way out two thousand five. We'll keep two thousand five theme going on April third when we revisit Wrestlemainia twenty one then on May first. We'll be back with backlash. Oh five as we continue to march through now what is going to be another great year on something to wrestle. If you haven't already supports worse on Youtube just go to something to wrestle with on YouTube dot com and click subscribe bud. We've greatly appreciated pickup herself. A SHIRT SHIRT OVER RICHARD DOT com. If you'd like to hear your product or service promoted here just go to advertise with Conrad Dot Com and stay tuned. We've got some more fun stuff planned and for this year about before you get Outta here. You need to make Valentine's Day easy. It's a breeze and it doesn't get any easier anymore. Impressive rainy or any more affordable than I hate Stephen Singer dot com these gold dipped roses. Man They're legit. I've given my grandmother to my mom now. Our our kids have of course my wife has one people love these things and let me tell you. If you're just going to send regular flowers yes she's GonNa love him but in a few days they're sitting at your curve during the trash can or gone. This thing will sit in. Her office is going to get lots of play with it at the office. People are GonNa say Oh my God. What is that? It's a rose dipped in goal. Where'd you you get that? My husband got a former boyfriend. Got It for me. Really get credit for a long time and these things started just fifty nine bucks. It's a real rose. It's been dipped in real twenty four karat gold gold. He can even send like a signature. Love no we're not sure what the foot to even got options for you. Can you can go ahead and select. Great are GonNa make her feel good his ship for for free. What are you waiting on? Valentine's Day is a no brainer. And it starts just fifty nine bucks at. I Hate Stephen Singer DOT com. Go look at it right now. You'll be glad you did. Ah Hate Stephen. Singer DOT COM and Bruce feels like It's about that time. He is that Bruce Richard Imax. Conrad and we. We'll see next week with Sherri Martel right here on something wrestle. Well Bruce Burchard channel announced. You'RE GONNA ask me took onto say. Hey all you ever have Nasha Pasha via I`Ma say me no had no pistola that that that's it I'm done.

Vince Russo the Times Chris Benoit Perry WCW Perry Dean Shane Kevin Sullivan Conan Eddie Eddie Guerrero Stephen Singer Perry Saturn Bill Bush US Pittsburgh Eddie Eddie Steven Singer Conrad Wa Jr Mike Graham
Guest: Shereen Lani Younes - Siblings Changing In Front of Each Other?

Don't Blame Me!

1:13:47 hr | 2 years ago

Guest: Shereen Lani Younes - Siblings Changing In Front of Each Other?

"Hello, everybody. And Amax rather episode of don't blame me today are fantastic and very chic. Am sure. So we have to. Okay. So you used to be our camera up more than that the OJ the the OG. So I. Oh, yeah. Oh, wouldn't know that really you guys dreams? Do come true. Behind the camera can go. The cameras. A glove of we're no longer in my dirty apartment. Yeah. I used to be on it when you guys were. Disgusting. I hate it here. But you love your own podcast, which is currently crushing it. Thanks. Yeah. It's called ethnically ambiguous. I hosted with my friend Ana it's about being be US. And we talk about like Middle Eastern news and issues get covered in the media like western media and just being like minority girls and children of immigrants and venting like fee. I really love this. Listen to as soon as you told me you had a podcast. I know that you guys dreams come true. Oh my God. You're listening to. The boat Petit podcast. And then I also hate listened to either going to hate listening podcast, the people that I don't like, and I need to stop the energy. It is a lot of a lot of Meghan. But yeah. So I feel like I guess I'll explain to you guys if you're new here because you already know this goes on, but this is vice podcast and with our fantastic co host producers superwoman what else do you want to call your cells today? I don't know. Here. Not like behind the desk, professional disliked almost like interviewing us. Yes. It looks like we're job interview. And like. For. You. I'm here for a good time longtime does that song from Stanton. Is it a show? Tune as Len. You know, what it was as background? I know why have you ever watched super fruit the guys to the tonics? So they have like they did musical Broadway singing of rat songs. So now, I have them seeing the musical rows on. I'm here for a good time. Not a long time. So that's my musical. What is that? From those above me. It's only think of it from. Acer knows. So it's taken from a rock song put into Iraq song. I'm remembering it from Benetton doing musical version of that cover. Well. Okay. Well, thanks. Although when people do this on podcast and everyone gets angry. I'm not anything else until I know now, neither all the listeners are going to be like this. Well, it's the first thing is from a George strait song. Country song. Yeah, he's a country song he's a country comparable. He also boarding to urban dictionary. It's a lotta Tinder bios tenure. Roles. Sean also has featuring Drake in Connie. So that's what that's what it was. Trays trooper troopers the rox banned yet they have a song will we're here for a good time a long time. So it's. The talking. Good in advice podcast. We are going to listen to your voicemails that you called in with and you left them to us have shit going on your life. And if you are internationalised, then you emails must not you emailed us, an audio file at Megan podcast dot com. So the phone number to that. Okay. Great. You ought to call in for future. Three one zero six nine four zero nine seven six. I know I of all. I feel like a dream. She doesn't there is no not even that like to all you out there. I was behind the camera just recording this nine even thinking about the possibility. Had really any makeup today except the conceal have on the zoo in the middle of my four. Oh, yeah. I have. I'm glad this Mike face, obviously. So you know, there's there's like right on my chin. But if I can't I can't lift my face up. Your turn away. It was just like. Like my job. Cuba. Periods. Cute Shering does a fun thing on her Instagram. Call is it pimple or freckle regular humble for P? It's a series highlight. Picture my face. I circled all the like weird blemishes that you think are. Yeah. But are not normal. And then I give the like it's like a series. So it's like one photos just the circles, and that I give the audience time to like what it is. And then I reveal link with the red the reds are usually pimples circle red. And then the greens are freckles or just like. Unknown objects. Yeah. It's called freckle or to shop. I g highlights. I have no ran like maybe like five goals of my entire body. And I thought I got a couple of calls on my face, and I was really excited one day and turns out just a had like popcorn little burn. He was charged popcorn. So jealous OSHA had freckles. Well, guys on that note. Should we get into the advice? Let's do it feeling. I'm going to be really Conti today. I am twenty five years old. And I need some help with my mom. I currently live with my parents because I work two jobs, and I'm in full if I work actually goes over for. Yeah. We see them very busy. I'm is. Hinging of I need a boyfriend I been single past. About three years now that I said out of serious relationship with a hard relationship. That's precisely hit full right? But my mom used to say that I need to be in a relationship, and I've told her on many occasions that I just don't busy. And so my on my plate right now of relationship is not in my mind, and she just isn't listening to each she really wants to set me up with the guy works I have role. Interesting. And I told her many times they have really interested, and I don't want to eat out because I hope busy like he doesn't listen. And I just don't know how to get rid of her that. I'm not in them. Please free serious relationship right now. I I did the worried about the issue just wants me happy. But I'm taking care of I have friends I have people that I'm taking care of. And I don't tell her that. But I've told her that I'm fine. And she's just really funny me to be in a relationship, and I don't know how to get through to her this desk not in the cards right now. So many advice on this or any pins that you can think of that I can use with her let you know. No center. Mom's gonna wanna meet him. She's kinda mom that's going to be like or what does she says that she's dating a couple different people? You know, like, oh like I've been going out on dates and that kind of thing. I mean, I think I think he should just. Convince your mom that like, you you like being on your own like independ-, you're only twenty five and I think I mean, my parents are the same though. So I mean, they want. Understand why malls. I think she will eventually understand if she sees you being happy, and like flourishing and stuff and just tell her that it's all your priority now to be depit, like a I dunno partnered up, you know, I think that you don't have to obviously, maybe lines not the greatest by. But maybe as much as just don't let this. I don't know there's something sometimes there's just no convincing people something else. And you just need instead of trying to get her to see it from your point of view using stop trying to get from your point of view and stopped caring about that. So if she really wants you today, and you say, okay, we last time like I'm really not into that right now. Like, I'm really focusing on me. The next time brings it up change the subject letter Novick. I'm not gonna talk about this more like a good point good with this. And if you're good with this. I think also you keep trying to prove or otherwise, she's probably gonna just read into that. Being like, see she's not happy with that. She's trying to convince me she's just channeling all of that sexual frustration. Like, you don't tell her. Don't worry. Mom. I'm getting like, which sounds like you. Yes. Yes. Get it hit it or just like fucking yourself. Take care yourself. I think you can just like just ignore it. And then she'll get over it. But I think the more that you talk about it, even if it's trying to your life choices, she's going to think that she has the option to talk to you about it. But if you tell her like, no, this is my personal life. Like, you don't have to say in it. I'm just going to do it. And then ignore her. If she keeps calling you and saying that stuff just totally ignore her as it used to. It's a really good point. Like, don't don't spend so much energy convincing someone of something. They they're they're not going to believe or whatever has live your life. And she's ultimately, you're I mean, obviously, she's your mom, and you like relationship, and I want to be good. But she always right about your own life. Yeah. You know, what's good for you? And if it's not being lazy right now, then I mean, I'm reading to relationship. Okay. Okay. No. I think it just kind of dated perspective that she has. And I think that the best way to show that you're saying the best way to show that you don't need a relationship. Let her see you flourish and see that happen. And then even if she doesn't like settle down or stop with that. Like, maybe you've siblings who are gonna start dating someone. She's barred laying a Netflix subscription older sister. My older sister getting engaged with a huge relief. We're like the attending on her. And we're happy for them. And I'm taking their engagement photos. Like, I have have a place in the family behind the camera. What happens when they get married? Going to prolong this as much as possible that there's still both in medical fellowships at least two years a little bit of time. But yeah, hopefully, you have siblings that you can just like detract attention away from if you don't then just ignore. Yeah. I my mom same way. So I just started telling her about everybody mail at the has terrible relationships that I am flourishing. Great. Do you want me to be like Betty sue over here whose husband is a hiding on her only time? No. Yeah. I used to do that when I was in high school, just like my parents when asking people that I've seen because I was like seeing like not the people they wanted me to just talk with everybody else's relationship so much that they would get distracted by that. So I say filler time with some other things. Yeah. And then she'll get over it and the more you don't wanna talk about it. She's also not gonna wanna ruin your relate. She's she this is coming from a good place from her really wanted you to be happy. And if she sees that the more she asks about it, the more. Distance. She's creating between you guys it's not worth it for her. I don't think she'll be like, well, if you don't talk to me because you don't have a boyfriend than whatever we're not going to talking. I don't see that. It's coming from a place of like care. And and and I don't know you could also find this video of share when she was younger being like interview. And she says yet, my mom was saying like, why don't you just go marry a rich, man? And I am a rich, man. Can't share does find videos like that? Maybe express your opinion better than you can like even if it's a meat, and I don't care where we're Lenny garbage like true crime things about like, boyfriends wives. It'd be like look what I'm saving death. Yeah. Yeah. And you're crushing it your school fulltime to jobs like fuck has time for the don't genuinely don't do. You're only twenty five like you have so much time and being by yourself. Is so important and. I think the best relationships happen when you're not trying like when you're doing your best when you're out there killing it. And then look it happens naturally. I think that's like you're already your best sell for like becoming that person. And then it happens. It's not like, you're constantly seeking it out. Because I think that it doesn't really work out the best when it happens that way you settle. Yeah. As opposed to be great. I'm crushing. And I don't need anyone that someone's like, I'm also great ninety when you're you're awesome. We're both awesome attract like people when you're like at that level yet. And I did a lot of really shitty guys when I was so. Okay. Under the next. Good luck, by the way. Yeah. Congrats on school in being smart. Gelling kick flourishing, I'm twenty years old. And when I was in high school, I realized I couldn't put a tampon in. So I went to my gynecologist, and she said that I had a micro perform Hyman, which means that. It's just a relational Hyman. I was really nervous about it and secure because like I can't have sex while I was a freshman in college. I decided to get the surgery to help me with that. And I could insert a tampon. So it worked out fine. But now, I'm dating my boyfriend that I've been dating for lights eight months and everything's good. Except a we're not able to have sex because I'm still like really tight. I went to just about it. And she said that I looked normal and everything was fine. Which always hoping that would be a problem that way, I could get it fixed. My boyfriend doesn't pressure me to have sex, and he's really supportive, and after we try every time, and we can't get it. I just kind of crying because it makes me secure, and I feel bad that I can't help them out. And I feel like it's my little, but he reassures me that it's not my all. And he really gets upset when I'm upset because you know, he wants me to be happy and hander stand. That this isn't my fall. And that this is something that we're gonna have to work together. And he's really patient, but I just keep on feeling really guilty about it. And I know I shouldn't. But I just it's really hard on me because I want him to be able to have that fulfillment and stuff like that. And we do other stuff. So it's fine. But I just feel really insecure about it still. And I just don't know what to do I've tried dilated and by raiders and everything like that. And also my boyfriend, I think is pretty big. So that also contributes to it, and it just makes me really upset. So if you have any advice for or maybe encouragement that would be great. Thank you. Oh, yeah. I I had a friend to will not name names, but I had a friend who had the same thing. So she ended up getting the surgery to and she found that asset love when I say front at usually is about this election not about. Does a lot of gymnastics like falling on the beaver like I didn't girl had. No. Hi. But I had a friend who that was her. And like she found out the same way. Like, she was having really hard time using tampons and went to the doctor found that out. And then she also did the same thing waiting wild have surgery. Started dating someone and was like I really want to do it. She did it and it took a while for her to be able to have sex because for her. It was so much more not like psychosomatic, but it was so much more in her head of like this the first time she ever tried the failed so many times that by the time that like everything was fine. And she was able to do it like she'd beside herself have because he tends up, and it makes you think about if you're not even turn on lakes year, like not wet, and then that's already like giant vagina like a giant Gina. That's still not the the wives vagina me and my super tampons yesterday. But like you don't even with that that can be a super uncomfortable teen. But also the second that you start to feel that like your body. It will be like, Nope, I'm done. So I would say as much as like perseverance and try and try again, I think because you went back to the college. And they said everything is looks fine. Which I totally get the feeling of you want something wrong. So you can fix it. And not saying that your the cygnets wrong at all. But I think like you guys unique to not be so hard on yourself with this because he's clearly not being hard on you not upset with you for this at all. But knowing that like, it isn't an impossible feat. And it also like a like, it's probably going to be quite uncomfortable. The first couple of times, and then it'll get better. It's not like vaginas stretch and have babies it's a it's something that can stretch and as much as that sounds awful and terrible and painful, it might be for the first couple of times in even somebody who like broker Heim before they had sex with the first three times. I like this is not like this. I mean, it wasn't good for a while like teenage boys, but it was like phys. Weekly painful. Fear awhile and uncomfortable until eight your body like understands the response to that. So like you've in a four plane, you're getting warmed up, and you're like actually really wanting it and your body's like clearly showing that you know, getting hot and bothered. And then the more that you do it the more comfortable that you'll get. But I think if you just try and like wanted this to be a cure all fixing I think you need to continue to take baby steps baby steps. He sounds like a great partner to like be patient with you. And it's hard not to feel guilty. 'cause like I understand like wanting to give affection of being a giver in like wanting that person to feel fulfilled it, but China to blame yourself. I think it's really important because I think that makes it worse for your your because it makes it worse on yourself and your body like when you're trying to do it on you feel guilty or or nervous or whatever. So. Yeah. Maybe just be patient with yourself and. Keep trying maybe like emailing invest in some like water-based lube like. Yeah. So because again, like if you're nervous about it. And like scared blaming yourself. You might not be your body might not be like open for business. Not your body's like nowhere nervous. I'm scared topping out early. And also if he's big another issue. So I said, I think you just yeah. Yeah. But not a lot to compare which is great like, even if he's not probably would love that like, well, she doesn't. Sounds good. Could guy, you know. I was gonna say also if you went to the same doctor that did the surgery may be try going to different opinion. Yeah. Because they might just be telling you because you're did at the work. Yeah. Yes. So smart. So smart, but I think focusing so much more on four play. And also like just in general, I think women especially put so much like importance on like like penetration like this is sex. Like, it's really not. It's not like, it's really not sexy. I know people who've never been penetrated, but they've have sex regularly like that such like a dated way of thinking at about it. And you guys you're saying that you guys are pledging yourselves like you're doing all these other things so your sex like isn't necessarily it's not suffering because of this, and he's clearly this isn't it's clearly not a deal for him. And I think the more insecure in the worst that you feel about this. You're not going to be enjoying the other parts of sex. There's some girls who don't like going down on guys, and I consider oral sex and a girl who doesn't wanna go down a guy who's not going. I mean, I'd be forgotten long ago there in relationship like there are certain things that you want. And you need, and then there their other things like, you know, what I signed up for this like, this isn't something. This is not a deal breaker of mine. I'm good moving forward with this. And I think you're inheriting blamed that. He's not putting on you. Exactly. That's a really good way to say it like it's this. It's this shame. But we didn't you. It's just women to like that's Jinan toy as responsible for making them come which is not the case. Like, I think the same way he's responsible for making you come. It's like not talking about. But going. Going to say, I I wanted to bring up something that was in my head enjoy intimacy. I think for me our relationship like the intimacy that goes without isn't just penetrative sex. It's like holy or like just like the four play around all of the other stuff like penetrative sexes part of sex. Sure. But it's not like an adult the all you're right. It's not like the end of the fucking race. That's what happens. It's also not necessarily constantly mutually beneficial. For me like, yeah, you're not deciliter missing out on a lot. But so just make sure you're also not blaming yourself in joining the rest of it not thinking like, well, I wish I could do this or which can do that. I think may be your brain is taking you out of the good parts when really you should just be living in in those moments. And then also, I don't know if you've had talked to the doctor, I know somebody who's terrified of gynecologist. There's a look code privilege. I think like being really honest and saying well my boyfriend I've been trying are there any like hips or things that I could do as they might have some suggestions of things that you could physically be doing to make it better. Like, maybe I don't even I'm like will track my cycles like make sure I'm not pregnant, but I think there's even times when your body's like more horny and non signing those things and making sure that you're going into it like how do I set myself up for like to be really turned on and be really into this moment. And then not like, okay, it's thirteen at we're gonna try and we're gonna have penetrative sex a lot of pressure. Yeah. Just like let it naturally happen. And then if it doesn't happen don't quit either. You know, like don't be like, okay, we're done. We're getting up moving on like have him down on you that I want him like make it. So like if it doesn't work at doesn't happen. But that's not like the end of the experience. Yeah. That's because you'll walk away ceiling defeated what in reality. Like, you won't be defeated. There's still with the person they want to like your intimate. It's lovely. Yeah. I think it is lovely to. And good luck. Go to a doctor. Yeah. There's no how goal is a smart. She is to her to do. Genius. If I can really genius. Onto the next one. I'm twenty three years old, and I had a friend for about a year. Now, I love his family. I love him so much. My issue is that him and his sister. Older sister are tuber play. They. Are about two years of our and I have older, brother. He's Chinyere load in the I am not very close with him. They can't really relate to that. Is my issue is they are so close that there's too open with their bodies. She will change in front of him bathroom about their in front of each other. Even talk about boop said, and sometimes it just made me feel uncomfortable as even a little bit like jelly. I really weird and owning can give any advice. I don't know if I'm crazy. They're just too close. If they're like. Best friend. I know being close sibling, you know, you're around each other all the time. I don't know. I have all sisters Charene. You have. I was thinking I was I was just thinking like I have two sisters and. We're both assigned female sexually whatever IP in front of them. And I change in front of them. But I'm also queer. So if I were was with a girl would she be comfortable doing that? Same time though at the same time, though, I think. Coming out from straight relationship. It is a little strange because. I mean, I don't wanna I wanna have like a double standard. But it is no at your your bodies are different. Like like my sisters. I we all have boobs. We all have like like, we also down to like, I don't know. Like, it's not like, but I think. Especially grew up together. So close like if they're always used to change from each other. Maybe they shared a room or something. Like, maybe they got used to that. Maybe they're not aware that for you coming out from the outside. It's so strange to you. Yeah. And I don't think. I mean, I don't know a guy that has sisters. I'm sure he talks about like. Guy the has a sister. In a mom already knew p probably has more talk about periods. Boobs is like growing up like want. So maybe that's something else. But I think changing in front of each other. That's where I find it. No. Yeah. And I didn't even think about the double standard because you're right. I wouldn't I wouldn't think anything of it. If like, I was like, I don't know if I was it. Yeah. It was like a girl like a queer women changing front of each like in siblings. But I think the reason why I would think of it differently is just because how different women's brains are right. When it comes to like sexual attraction and things like that like women don't think with a penis. They're so much more logic in Raton. That's just like proven about how women think versus how like male brains work. And so this is what I would like the reason why find this weird I wouldn't necessarily find it as we are there on the camping trip or whatever end like they're like, she's a changing she's like in like, she's changing from her broad something. Like brother would probably be like, oh gross. You let me turn around in the same room. But like the fact that you know, the. Chained in front of the other means that like it's not that. And it's not like sisters stop like fuck nasty like SABA. We're right here. Like, he's not doing that. So you know about it. And like he's not your concern because he's not grossed out by it. And like, I think I mean, I don't what was like. There was also short back to into freakish wrote in insists orients for others and really brought in like, Geno. They're like fucking like why does she so jealous? Shocking life, Derek or whatever. Growing up gets. They were still still think like there's definitely a weird line there. I don't wanna like make it like hell darker, whatever. But like there's like a lot of true crime in like, psychological things in like a lot of either kids who were like sexually abused tend to have like a weird can have those not we not like shape like can have kind of bond over certain things that can make them just be a lot closer and had a skewed view of what's okay sexually not saying. The case they're known like just to cover that. There might be have been something like that. But I think like, but it's also when you grow up with someone so close to your age, the kind of define like what the other sexes to you. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think maybe just explaining to him that. Like you. You're not. You don't relate to that. Closeness or whatever. And you would just feel more comfortable if. I don't know. Actually does that like I don't know how to word it's not like being annoying normalized for the. Yeah. It's weird because it's what they've always grown normal. It's not I wanna know clemmie Lee. It is plenty of hippies that like change each other like mom. Yeah. Like, yeah. And but I think the thing is if your feeling you have to decide of are, you the fact that she's saying that she's feeling jealous. That's the part to me because I'm like, it's not like a like. So I don't have a step. I mean, half brother, but he's like way way. So we've never had this kind of relationship. But even my guy friends that I consider to be like my brothers the time that I've like accidentally changed in front of them. I've scarred them for life and have not been able to live in the eyes. And we're not even related like the one time. Leo saw me like in my ditsy seen my boobs and three the lookout literally screamed out loud. And ran the time that Tyler did could not look me is having on the group being guys just losing my shit. I feel so income fled. Don't know what to do like, not someone who like a friend who we consider ourselves like siblings as like the talking about girls and all that stuff. I don't I wanna know he had guy friends growing up because if he had guy friends and his sister was like they were there and one of his friends was go your sister's hot he should have been like. Whoa. Stop it. No. And there should have been this divide created at that age of like a I'm like t's two years older than a sister. Or there's a two years two year age difference. There was there had been a moment. There should have been a moment where his friends or her friends something was established that it was like, you know, that's my sister. And then they would have really changed how they acted around. Each other be just because you do kids Bates together when they're little those things, but you're twenty. Yeah. Once you get to a teenage age is kind of where that should be that shift. Yeah. And like it's like the same time when like kids stop like not all the time a lot of kids kissing their path. It's on the mouth is when they start to associate those acts sexually with other people. Still don't like I mean, I've never made my parents had of kissing on the mouth thing. I think it's like something. I do not understand associated sexually not just that. Just don't like Meryl's. Okay. But it's also like. I I've I've seen sister is be really like siblings. We really protective of their ministers in like, especially when our person comes into their lives like romantic Lii in. So maybe there's something like that going on like with her with the sister. Yeah. Maybe she's just very protective brother and let it comes off like really strange. I don't know. Yeah. 'cause I think if. Feel like you being uncomfortable. Can't be that much of a shock. Right. That's what I have to be something that they're doing and who's changing in front of who. Or what circumsion and unchanging is going down to underwear is because it's just down to under- wear, and like she's changing whatever is he liked turning away. But he's not leaving the room because that's the kind of stuff that like, I I don't necessarily find super weird if he's not looking, but like, I even have friends who like are men who identifies being gay, and then they have like female siblings who also identified as being gay, and they don't like watching each other. They're not even they're links also not attracted to those parts. Right. And they still are like, no gross ill. So I think like they're just there has to be a reason why you feel comfortable and jealous and like I don't want to rule out. The fact that they might have like an inappropriate sort of relationship that crossed over late. Goes. I mean, I I. More likely to believe like they just like were raise really open and very comfortable with each other or whatever. But I still think you need to have a consumer sation with only him and like tell him like you don't under you don't relate to this. And sometimes it makes feel uncomfortable. When he's like when she also accounting time changing front of like, I don't understand. But like this tell tell him like it would make you explain why you're uncomfortable. Explain that you. Maybe he'll come back and be like, it's always been like this. And then I don't know just make sure you tell him that you're comfortable without being like defensive or attacking him. Just just explain your point of view being like, I have I've never been a I've never had a relationship like the one you have with your sister. I just want to know that I feel uncomfortable. Sometimes. And here's reasons why. Yeah. Yeah. And I would tread lightly to because the sister that sister brother bond, that's never gonna go away point that you could meantime, saying siblings protective over their siblings and Ken liked be detrimental to romantic partnership. So, but I think you've got ground to stand on because you also have a brother like you have like you have that same potential that relationship, and you don't have it. But I think exactly that gives him tell him feel uncomfortable and don't be attacking like judges and how they've been parented or how they've grown up just say like it just makes me too. I like explain this because my my relationship with my brother, I call it's like very close. But like these are things that as somebody has a brother, I would feel a little uncomfortable with and I just have this. I don't know. I just feel weird about it. And I'd love to understand more about. And then if he if there is no change, and he really liked comes at you like is like mad or something like total red flag, and then just move on. Because if it makes you comfortable now, it's probably and he doesn't want to change it. It's not worth it. Onto onto sound like it's mere hurt because he will always choose her. You know, what I mean because the Melissa's right? Like there's a bond that you can never compete with. Maybe he just had no guy friends, and he's say this and he's going to be like, oh my God. Wait, what you you're not like, dear brother, and he might panic and shit. So I know this is weird. I'm I'm think I'm more likely given by for the interesting just like, I don't know just raised a little more open that I'm used to. Yeah. This. He changed in from in front of his mother to nine known shale Shiloh buff like him has mall walk around naked. Yeah. Exactly. Their families were it's just like bodies are not as like like, I don't know like not necessarily. Which I'm I'm the self identified. Naked person will be naked in front of anybody. Do not care. Leo, totally fine with it. But like I'm like that too. Sometimes L change, that's really care. My little sister. I don't realize crow comfortable, I would much like other. I get naked sprayed in the vigor principally over. And I'm like, I know we just met. I'm so sorry for some weeks into knowing her. I am. I don't realize that like even though I'm not uncomfortable. He. Sorry. Time I wouldn't necessarily like I don't know. I wouldn't change in front of like lessons or something. Like or I wouldn't change in front of like if I felt comfortable changing in front of my guy friends, which I totally AM, but they're not comfortable with them. But if I was comfortable changing in front of them again, which I amps and they were say, I'm cheating abroad under knocking totally I also wouldn't fucking do that like in France girlfriend. Yeah. I mean, like even though I'm like, oh, no. It's just like totally platonic like owner know how she found out. Do. Like swimming around in a pool, then they all went to change in she stayed. The sister was there. What's the climate? And the bathroom thing is weird. I think it's more just kind of like like then go into the bathroom in front of each other. Like what on selecting their teams? Shooting especially I mean, I grew up sharing rooms on my whole life because we one of money. And so like, I got we got used to train you're going to the bathroom at the same time even showering Mme shower together, like just save water and steps shouting for years like, oh, I understand their bathroom stuff because you're like I have to p to wash your hands. Just like get it over with. Yeah. So it's like those things are different. But I don't know. I think if you're reading into it and it's making jealous uncomfortable. Even if it's not necessarily coming from his side. Maybe it's coming from her side. Or maybe there is something there. I think you need to say it in a nice way. And then trust your gut. Exactly. I was gonna same thing trust. How you feel deep Dell because it's usually not wrong. You're never got his never never wrong. And also, even if like that is the truth. And there is nothing more there that feeling you have isn't going to go away. And it's not worth it just to keep feeling that feeling even if like, no, this is totally this is why. And if they're not talking. Incestuous as hell, and it feels like that. It's still feels like please on. On. Need to know more about this? And how you found out that they were doing the has this happened to anybody else. Oh, yeah. Someone else. He's called in with a similar coal. Okay. Is it time for a break? I'm getting psychic count the calls. This is change as I've been God. Quick break. And then we'll be right back. If there's something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from cheating. Your goals? Better health online counseling can help better. Help offers licensed professional counselors specialized in issues such as depression anxiety relationships. Trauma anger family conflicts, LGBT matters, grief, self esteem and more connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environment and get help at your own time. And at your own pace, anything you share is confidential. And it's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your therapist. If for some reason, you're not happy with your counselor though, you can request new anytime for no additional charge. Best of all. It's truly affordable option. Don't blame me with Meghan rinks listeners. Get a ten percent off your first month with the discount code blame. So why not get started today? Go to better help dot com slash blame than simply phila-. A questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get mashed with the counselor that you'll love that's better. Help dot com slash blame. Okay, everybody. We are back from our break. We're gonna hop onto some more combs hydrogen twenty two years old, and I'm calling to ask it by on a little situation. Dating my boyfriend for if a year now, and I started thinking recently about how are used to have this with. Grows and. Don't get me wrong. I am completely in love, my friend. I love him too. But I was wondering is there's a chance that I could be buy in as I am was exactly would be something. I could do after that like what I have to. So my boyfriend or like forget about it. 'cause I don't plan on being with any girls. But I haven't joined it when I was with one it's only been one, but I've always been kind of scared keep experiencing, but yeah. So I don't know if do, but I think as shouldn't do anything, but I don't make something far from you guys would be great. I do you should tell him because I think you should be honest with your partner. But I also think like I remember when I was dating someone pretty regularly like the closest thing pats relationship, basically, I got really terrified because I also like women, and I was like I'll never be with the woman again, like I'm trapped at I like kind of self sabotage it without even knowing that I was just waiting for it to end or I was just like making excuses to Blake find three sons or like, I don't know. Like, I was like trying my hardest to be like I still want to be with. So I think even subconsciously I think if we don't tell him, I think you'll kind of eat away at you. Because you're hiding something that you think is like tremendous to the relationship. But I think if you tell him that like you've had experiences before that you've enjoyed and you wanna be with him. But you want him to know that like if you go into contained to intimate like you want to just know the whole year. You know what I mean? I do think it's good that you're not like me and thinking like your tread forever. Because I think I think that's the problem that like a lot of like queer by people come into going to ships Royster with straight people is that like you feel like you're only giving them part of you. But I think if you're honest with him I understand. That's great says understand that he's garbage. But I think he should understand. Yeah. And I agree with all of that. I think you don't need to necessarily like read into. I don't know. I think thinking about anybody when you're in a relationship thinking about other people when you're in a current relationship, usually means like you might be feeling trapped in a little like, oh, do I really want this? But I think if it is just coming from a place of I don't feel like he knows all of me an hour. I'm like worried that I'm not because I'm not being up front honest. Like, it's it's going to implode because I'm not being myself. I think like mental you might tell him and then a couple months on road. Might be like, you know, what I'm not totally into immediate won't even go to the girl after that. You'll do. But I think like the way to give your relationship the best shot is to be Oakland on us. And so you're not withholding anything that might make yourself sabotage relationship because you're not being honest. But at the same time, if you don't feel like it's something that's important for him to know and feel like maybe this is like your mind telling you that you don't want to be with him. You also can break up with him. And you don't have to tell him. I'm by. That's why I'm breaking up with you. 'cause it's can also be not the reason why it could be mid Festinger itself in different ways. So I think you need to have a conversation with yourself with being like, whoever I like, it doesn't matter whatever I'm going to identify or not identify as and is the reason why I'm thinking about this because I'm unhappy in this relationship, or is it because I don't feel like I'm so happy in this relationship. But I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop because I don't feel like I'm being totally honest and then figure out from there. And then I say if you feel ready like totally tell him and again, if he's a good guy will not give. It was reversed. And if he had an experience with a guy that he enjoyed like, I think it will be nice like share that with each other. I don't know. It's like being especially I mean, I don't know. How did you say how long they been dating almost a year? That's plenty of time to be that open honest with each other. I think about yeah. The talking about your past experiences so important, and I think there is less stigma when it comes to girls girls girls girls together. I don't I don't under- like me like, I don't know just annoying. But forever reason like I feel like he should be accepting of it. And just letting letting him know that like you wanna be with him. If that's the case like you wanna be with him. And you want to know that like you're also figuring out your sexuality, but has nothing to do with relationship. It's more dislike you're accepting that like, oh if had experience with a girl, and it wasn't nothing to me, you know. And I think when people. When you hide something, especially when it's something about yourself because you don't want to her relationship. It's gonna hurt. No matter what. Because if you're hiding it because you don't want to know if he's gonna be accepting you're gonna find out in a way that he talks shit about the same situation with other people, and you're going to be like, you're talking shit about me, you just don't know it. So give him the opportunity always give the opportunity to be a good person be the Greek guy. But if he doesn't you not telling him doesn't race that part of new or race part of your past like, he's either going to love you for the four this or love you regardless of who you've been with as you shouldn't or he's not going to and him. Not knowing still means that like those feelings would this. And I think really like putting him aside like an amazing time for you to really like discover yourself and like coming to the realization that like the spiracy had of girl was meaningful to you in like awakens part of you that you didn't realize there and realizing maybe you might be by those. Like amazing feelings to to feel. They're also terrifying. I think if you're feeling alone in them like I'm glad you even reached out because it's like brave to do. So, but I really hoping supportive of you. If you do decide to tell him because I think it's a very fragile place to be mentally end. Because you think you know, yourself your whole life. And then you're like, well, maybe I tell like, yeah. But yeah, I mean. Life is all about like fucking self growth self-improvement, and we all are learning and growing as we go. And so this is like another development of that. And then more power to. Yeah. Yeah. Best of luck. Let us know. Yeah. And if not Salk him. Yeah worse if you're great. Yeah. Exactly. And you can be with a reward to be onto the next on owning your will. And I think getting boyfriend basically with like Krishna nearby. We are is there. We slow like a shame oil. Are realizing college England still can have. Saying we started having stacked on your that eighteen year old. It's been very good. But the only thing is that I could never orgasmic some sex like payments, the Jonah sex. So mike. Okay. I like him even or my. Really? That's all that I've ever orgasm firm. But. She usually wants to go like straight into and I always need to like workup. She went because I feel like if he kind of aren't going to. My question in this. How do you shake that? I could help my life. In. I'd like scout about sexual, but she's like really internet type issue. I don't know. I. I I don't wanna like came or like pulling out with this. Still or something. So I guess my question is like what? Like a Chaim thing that I could do. Yeah. 'cause I just I worked you in. Without how comfortable you like go down on me. I 'cause I'm not gonna do it. You know? If you need an adoptive funding. You're watching this on YouTube when you saw me like laugh in the middle of that just know that was because I knew Melissa put the past two questions on just for me feel like because she's new versions for every guess Harry Taylor, Melissa the best. I've never had an orgasm loans gonna say outright and just ever. Okay. And I'm Lou late twenties. And it's kind of like a weird thing to admit. But I think it's when it comes to I think because you guys have it sounds like you guys each other's firsts. And t does not know what he's doing as far as being like a giving lover. He sounds like a very selfish lover and only thinking about himself and not realizing like you need more to climax or even like get pleasure out of it. I think. First of all, I think being okay with orgasm. While the time is like the first step. But if it's because of him not reciprocating, then that's another issue entirely. Yeah. He just he sounds like he needs to like grow the fuck up. It sounds like he's he's comparing the only thing he's comparing this to a sex in movies. Oh, she can't come from penetrative sex. I've come from penetrative sex one time in my entire life. Like what's ever every other time of comments because like if in with a partner, it's like them going down on me or like figuring me or something like that? Like, it's like the one time happened. It was like a row experience that I've never even tried to get back to like like, I don't know many women. No do so that the only idea that he's he's saying what you're will. Like, can I come from penetrative sex like women usually can't usually can't he's comparing your sexual experience to like what he sees in porn season things like they're just not accurate in depicting lists. So you're taking on this blame when in reality than the entire are. Like nearly our entire gender would take on that blame. Yeah. So I don't want to say that like, oh, well, you should up more sexual experience to understand that. But like again to recommend the book, she comes. I like there's so the looping back like there's so much pressure. Put on the idea that like penetrative sex is Sacco and the idea that he wants you to get off the exact same time the exact same way he's getting his fucking lazy. That's so fucking lazy. Also, like the the pressure that you probably have on yourself to orgasm. I know the I feel that all the time like it doesn't make sex fun. Like, it just makes it in your head, and you won't come when you're thinking about it. Anyway, because you're just like that's the whole point of of heard. You're letting go whatever earth time ever had an orgasm. It was like from masturbating because I was like dating I was like I had had sex guys have never come in. And I was like just I knew I was too nervous. And I was like, I don't know McGregor weird phase. I'm going to sound like what it's gonna be like, and I'm a control freak. So I was like, no, I'm gonna make my. Come first. So then I understand this. What's not going in dark in giving someone else this making making it feel in my head some young making feel like I was giving someone else's over something that I didn't really understand or know? So I was like I need to experience this. I know what I'm getting really good point. Like know what your body likes like be with yourself? I and they'll that like. Like understanding how your body likes to be pleasure is really important in the it sounds like she's like in the you're wanting to bring in toys in these different things if he doesn't wanna put forth any effort injuries, you gear or something. That's he sounds insecure. And he's just like he wants his dick to be fucking Goldenrod of pleasure. That is three pumps and you're like screaming like, it's not gonna happen. If not willing to be like, okay? I hear you. I understand that. And I also want the most important thing for me here is for you to also have a great time and be pleasure. If he's not going to do that like this shitty partner. Like, it's just as the fuck. He sounds like if that's the case, then he does song should be partner in the feud have to keep telling him to go out on you. That's also fucking shit. Low should be into the us should be turned on by just be going to how much like how much pleasure that brings you there. I am a huge fan of giving blow jobs because at them, and I liked them. Not. Because like I love dick in my mouth. I like you say give it control pledge somebody else and how much how great you. L is power. Our biggest pet peeves when there's a big lesion of women that think like is degrading to blow jobs. I understand that shirt. But you have so much fucking power. You're enjoy their most prized possession is like I under control. They would die, but I won't do that. But like the my point is as a giving I really like to give love when I'm like in intimate or whatever. And I enjoy the my partner like reacting to what I'm doing. And he a good partner would like the reverse. Also like he should enjoy going down on you. Because he knows he's giving pleasure. The same way that you probably want him to like finish every time. And it's probably maybe I'm projecting here. But like in my central experiences because the red orgasm the the end goal is usually my partner's orgasm. And so if that is the case for you guys than he sounds like he's like. Like the fucking champion of sex. The whole the whole point is him finishing all every time. And he's probably getting used to because you're it sounds like your his first sexual experience. I have got a guy friend who. Him and one of his previous girlfriends not with anymore. But they like she was never coming when they were having sex, and it was like a whole conversation that we had when we were in high school, and he was like petrified of it because he had been with one hit one other serious girlfriend like earlier in high school, and they reach others for sexual partners. And they both were like early on were able to get each other both off, and then he went on data this other girl later on in high school, and she they were he wasn't able to make our come. And he struggled with a ton. Because it started with like, okay? Well, how do I he automates treating it? Like he treated his ex girlfriend and things that she liked but eight eight at him away. There were so many fucking conversation of like him pulling like our female friends being like what you like like what I'm doing not working. And it was like it was so important to him to have her like he was having a hard time getting off because he knew that she wasn't like then he made it became so much about her and that pressure that eventually like just fucking keep trying. Eventually it's going to happen. Like my worst fear. Honestly, like I put a lot of pressure on myself because I'm I'm broken white can ideal is like. It's really not. I just be patient with myself. And I've gotten really close I feel like with partners in by myself. But. The the closest time gone with a partner with someone that I was very intimate with like had history in also he wasn't just he was like it wasn't just his penis inside me was our finger. And it wasn't like you. You won't know what works for you until you fucking try. And so I think keep extreme experimenting with yourself and not with him. If he's not interested in like, helping you achieve that. Then you can move on find different better person to be with because I think you'll find with sexual experiences. There are lovers out there that will fulfill you more than he sounds like a dick. And like, it's it's it just sounds like a very young mentality in life twenty. Yeah. It just integrated. I don't I'm at this point in my people that give me ship before because they're like, well, some girls don't like giving blow jobs some guys don't like going great. That's fine. And there are people for everybody. Like, I went out with a guy, and we're like hooking up, and he was like, oh, yeah. I don't go down. Show. Great to meet you out like that's a deal for me because that's me getting rid of my sexual pleasure with a partner still be able to get myself off. But like I want to be with a partner in you're not into going down on me. That's great. I I enjoy giving blood. But like I'm wants to be equal. Yeah. There's if he's you don't have to. I don't know. It's just one was he if this is like he doesn't like doing that. And it's not something that he's automatically doing off the bat because he enjoys your pleasure. Like that's the biggest turn on for me. The most turned on when like a guys like losing their shins or giving a group like that to me is the biggest turn on in the world, so fucked pincher. That's more turned on than that within like sexing or anything else you feel. So it's just like empowering and sexy and hot you like that. And if he doesn't have those feelings there it really sounds like he's just aiming foreign and goal doesn't wanna put the working. He doesn't want to put the work. And that's not on you. And it's not like, oh, I can't come from this. He will eventually learn if you work he will eventually learn take maybe five or six girlfriend four we'll be with one girl. Who's like, you know, it's not just you haven't dated a string of women who need you to go down on them. That's just like a female thing. It sounds like he's not counting world as. Yeah. Or later for just the back and forth of being like, well, if I'm going down a new then you have to go down. Well, that's not not like penetrative sex and oral sex all of this fallen whatever whoever needs what to get off. If that's the goal, and you're not just fooling around with no goal in mind. I think is also really important. But like it's a goal here is for both of you to come. It. Doesn't matter what you're doing. It's not like a tit for tat situation. Like, it's all sex, and like, whatever you need to get your you and your partner to get there. You should both want the other person to get there like, well, it's like we're having penetrative sex. And then I'm going down new you have to give me a blowjob immediately. Like, what is the just sounds like I don't like it sounds like she was blaming herself alone. And I told feeling like China than the rest of us have to blame. I've been there. I felt a lot of blame for myself, and my inability to like, yeah. Reach that whatever it was. But it's not it makes it worse. When you do that. I think if he is understanding of you. Trying in the fuse of if a one-sided effort that I think it's just really telling of the sexual relationship a one sided thing where like you're the one. That's like, hey, I wanna try this or like, hey, like wanna do this? And this is important to me, whatever in a few slight blase about it or whatever the laws as the fuck out of there. I just wanted to in with this that about seventy five percent of all women never reach orgasms from intercourse alone. That is without the help of sex toys hands or tongue in about ten to fifteen percent never climb. That's under any circumstance. My snow masturbate. She's doesn't. This too. On a podcast. To be here. I mean, I don't know not often. I mean, I like it just I get bored. Okay. I don't think my I've also been on like a lot of antidepressants over the years. Dissect strive, it does second is right. Another call. There's listener device are known as producers corner. Yes, trains, the title so much has changed so much has changed not a lot to like it's like the same stuff. But like a lot is also changed. So it's time for listeners advice, but that's the name for now for now. So this is where a Mike Omya slant DO. But if you guys are new listening here or watching here, this is where other listeners call in with their own advice from previous calls on episodes in. This is from episode forty eight with cat, thou diz, the original caller, she had a crush on her boyfriend's friend, remember the yes, she sent the Allenton nude yet. I set his his best friend, which we don't know how the accident. Right. So this is somebody that's calling in with similar experience. You'll fucking homework curse the wreck in their own home. Literally sales up to sabotaging. I am calling about. Chance to have the phone. Boyfriend frag tally happen. So I thought insight on the Asian. I would actually in a very similar joy when I was eight. Yeah. Like equally. Name almost for years. I the huge frosh avoid I worked all together him on in the board. I. So I personally. Ternent doing basin at work out. I talked to him and just like, you know, little bit this summer. He was on his voice. He likes just number one out he only on video game. So that was ozone, and I saw anybody in other ways. I latched onto that pension. And I hope all the time. I phone person behind my way that I building. And he's like with me when he was upset about my voice. I think you advantage of that. I don't know what happened in her situation. But my. On because I didn't cut it off at number two. We get Riddick fight over in oval. We didn't or together. So definitely Jaffe hot their relationship off. Just only going to get warring or toxic just want one more out of it when you're not getting your boyfriend's Bentley. So I understand where she's probably from. And I understand why something, but I urge her to it. 'cause I did it and it was not good. Don't do it. Staying crossing time listening. I think it's good advice. I just wanna say for anyone listening, including this girl. Not that I've been your boyfriend. But I have there's the idea that somebody else can make you like make you insecure. And if you're in a committed serious relationship that like your partner is the reason why you are straying is not fair. Like, you can't make that argument. Don't cry Meghan of God. No. But just like a known wants to talk. I think it's great that you've recognized that you you made a mistake. I'm glad that you had the foresight to be like don't do it. I made a mistake or whatever. But I do think emotional treating is still cheating. The Cherie never like had sexless person or even like we're intimate with them in. You're saying that you've ever cheated. But there is cheating involved when you are talking behind your partner's back. Anyone you are doing something that you know, they would wanna do or like, you're you're hiding anything. It's 'cause you know, like there's something to hide an think like, I think I'm so glad that you guys are together and it never like cross that line. But just like anyone else hearing this like the idea that your boyfriend wasn't giving you enough attention. And that this was a pass to be like, well, I could get attention to world. Yeah. And it's also like we always say that you need to give people the benefit of the you need to give people to offer to. Show that they're good person. And if you're feeling anything in any relationship, whether even like a friendship or a relationship that you're feeling like you're meets your needs aren't being met the solution. There isn't to seek out that validation from somebody else again, even friends if you feel like your friend is being a super shitty listener have a conversation with about that don't be like Kay. I'm just going to talk to you. And I'm gonna go find another friend who can fulfill that. So I think like I well, I'm so glad that you guys. Like, your advice is great like don't do it. It's a total shit situation. Just like you said, I think the thing that everyone should really take away from this. If it's your unhappy in a relationship or in any sort of situation, and it's not necessarily you don't feel like it's necessarily in your control, the thing, you do have control over is letting those people that you've brought into your life that you love and who trust letting them know giving them the chance to show you that they can improve on that. But if you go and seek that from somebody else the issue there, isn't you didn't do that. Because you didn't like because of your partner. Doing it. Because you didn't want irresponsible for your actions. And your response. I hate the go your sponsor for your happiness because like depression, anxiety, all of that stuff. But like there are things that are under your control and in order to grow and mature a person like you need to harness that control and ask for what you want the episode sexually. You have to ask for what you want as opposed to like trying to find it other ways or like dogs the question 'cause you feel embarrassed or awkward and you feel needy. You like you just need to straight up ask for what you need with an honest communications, the only really again time only get what you want like you instead of I mean, obviously, you learn from your mistakes imagine ever doing it again. But like the next time you feel like your boyfriend is like neglecting, you you can talk about is seeking your own validation different ways. But but yeah, I motioned if not I think worse. Yeah. And I gotta give like if someone's being distant like, I think about it like friendship wise, the amount of as I've text each other being like are you mad at me? And it's like, oh my God. No, I'm just having a really bad day. So like, I thought everyone else was mad at me like the amount of times that like you can if you just let things fester so much of the time when you feel like someone's pulling away or as being distant or doing something else. A maybe maybe maybe you had a conversation that he read too much into something that you said and has been taking a non a non verbal cue from you thinking that you wanted space or maybe he's dealing with something on his own terms and just isn't doing a good job of. And so then you're internalizing it and making it about you when it's not about you at all like it could be about you. It could not be about you. But like if you don't tell somebody and have that talk. You're never going to know felt like a dick before when I've been like I said, I'm not gonna attention, you know, Japan like really depressed was suicidal recently. I was like oh my God. I'm so sorry. I should've just asked you about. And even though I asked I asked you about it. We're able to have conversation. And now you're trying to keep something for me to make me feel better. Like, I think the more that you can just give people the opportunity to be the people be the people that you want them to be. And and even if they are let's say like, they are being lazy the relationship, and they are like trying maybe he didn't wanna play video games all day. Like, he wasn't being the best partner Silla excuse excuse. Don't let don't don't have that on your karma. Like have it like you find out that he's just kind of a lazy boyfriend and then be like walk away from the situation not feeling guilty. Like, if you start acting on something in reality, you you felt like you were acting out, but you ended up taking into a forward. Now, your apologizing as opposed and like I'm so sorry that was really shitty of me. And you having the power and now he has the power. So keep the keep power more. Always keep talking power the power. That's our episode guys. I hope you enjoyed Charene. Plug your shit. Oh, great. I'm sure. You can follow me on things. I've I have a big US. It's on the house to forks network, and you find out I tunes Spotify anywhere podcast, ethnically and bigamous on Twitter where on ethnically am MB. And that on Instagram where I think we in big NBA GM. You can follow me on Instagram Shiro hero S H E E R O H E R O, and then Twitter Charene why. Because someone took Shiro hero. So it's H E R E N W, H Y, and filmmaker and say follow me on all my stuff, and I'm trying to make some more things right now because I have some free time. Yeah. About your book and Bayless I've poetry book called dime piece. Because it's like spans ten years of from sixteen to twenty six like the collection of poems. I had from there. So it's kind of like a diary chronological Amazon prime dollars sixty six cents because hail Satan hail Satan is gonna buy that shit making making second one right now, which I think is a little bit better than my first. Because I have this thing about poetry for me. Anyway, I don't edit and I put in the shitty wants to like Mark, my growth, even though like a lot of poems poets that I know like are very like edit. Yeah. At it heavy, but I'm not like that. So my second one it's fifty pages. Deep in excited about. Cool. Very much on an editor with it. Yeah. For me. It's like a Sarah cathartic land leasing. Okay. And I never get back. I wrote it like what was I talking about? I don't know. I don't know how to edit this to make it better. The fuck I was signed. Like when I was in high school, I had like a website, and I put my poems on there. I remember someone's finding them one to one day and her fine. But it's like the motions. I felt then we're like there. Yeah. I don't feel it anymore. It looks the thing that was like literally wiser Taylor when I was younger like it was just like Zanga. There is. Angel fire. The time. I got two young. That is what's that? Well, if you want to be on an upcoming episode of the podcast, you can give us a call at three one zero six nine four zero nine seven six, and if you're an international listener, you can Email us at Meghan podcast at g mail dot com. These are some great calls if you just take this as like some like if you heard this, and we went there. No that we'll go there again, if you have something that you've been afraid to call in about if you wanna be on the puck has also maybe stars a camera up. True. Following listen, I are socially down below as well as our website, tumbling me dot show. If you're watching this on YouTube, go subscribe to items and go listen to the audio version of the podcast. So you can listen to it in your car. And then if you're listening to in your car in your headphones and go home and watch the video versions, you can watch getting credibly. Facial expressions. Listen on Stitcher. Was so exciting guys. This is fun. Me thanks for being here. Yeah. Give me love. All guys. You look so good today too. Everybody go comment jokes to then. I mean, you always pretty, but you look, especially prodigious eyelashes. Okay. We can now. Whatever struggles you're facing from depression, anxiety, trauma in Greece better. Help can help you connect with professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. It's so convenient you can schedule a secure video or phone session as well as chat and text with fair pissed and anything you share is completely confidential. Best of all is truly affordable option. Don't blame me with Meghan ranks listeners. Get ten percent off the first month with discount code blame. So why not get started go to better help dot com slash blame. 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Defending Liberalism with Adam Gopnik

Why Is This Happening? with Chris Hayes

55:52 min | 1 year ago

Defending Liberalism with Adam Gopnik

"Every time the thar Teheran's come to power, there's an opportunistic left response to think oh, we can that'll be good in the long run. That'll heightened, the contradictions we'll be able to take advantage that, that never happens. What happens is that it only that kind of Pacific, and that kind of opportunism only feeds, the right wing autocrats, nationalism, isn't something that you can you can play games with you can play dice with. It's always a huge danger. Hello, and welcome to wise is happening with me, your host, Chris, as you know, with bud listeners, I don't know, if this is an annoying tendency of mine, but I'm just going to go with it, which is that the older I get the more inclined. And like tell stories about, like back in the day back back in my day, I have a particular inclination to do this with our staff. Many of whom are under thirty shame issues, sitting in for Tiffany champion today, who's looking up at me and, and nodding tolder I think is more like my age. Right. Yeah. So here's the back of my day story back back in my day in the Bush administration in the in the sort of post nine eleven post-iraq-war war. The net roots there was this big fight over the term liberal, and a kind of consensus view that the term had been so destroyed by conservatives and made into such a caricature that it had to be jettisoned in favour, progressive, and basically, like no one call themselves liberal anymore. No one talked about liberalism, or a liberal approach to things. It was all progressive. Progressive. Aggressive, and that I think is more or less stayed the same. I think progressive has become the kind of standard word, but it's also the case that the word liberal is really slippery all these political terms are between two different things right. Liberalism, in the American political context, which are people that are sort of on the center, left who are, you know, believe in, like higher taxes, and redistribution and the sort of platform of the Democratic Party and, and things to the left of that, unionization, etc. And then there's liberalism in a broader sense, which is like the political theory of essentially self-governance, with specified in alienable, writes that preserve, an independent civil society freedom from domination human flourishing, free speech judicial process, and things like that, that's been like the field upon which the sport of American politics is played on, like, we're not, we're not having a fight over, like what system of government. We should have. Right. We're having a fight where we have some government broadly, we believe in, like self-governance liberalism, enumerated rights judicial process, and then we fight over things like whether abortion should be one of those rights, and we fight over things like how much should we tax and what should the state provide verse not provides things like that in, in the wake of the end of the Cold War. I think there was generally a sense that, that victory that sort of idea that that's the kind of foundational setup for the modern state became a commonplace, consensus among a lot of thinkers, like there was this huge battle between two different models like broadly, liberal democracy on the one side and communism on the other, and you don't one side, one side loss in the communist collapsed. And so the side that one was just gonna spread all over the place. And then, like, you know Ukraine would be a liberal democracy. Russia would be a liberal democracy, like Armenia would be a liberal democracy. Kazakhstan will be a liberal democracy because that's the other model and the that models when the one. Not at all what happened, right? I mean what we've seen is a flourishing of various forms of government, that are definitely not, they're not communism in the sense of sort of one party rule by communist party. But they are not liberal democracy, modern Russia has elections, but it's not a liberal society civil societies incredibly manipulated and dominated by the state. It doesn't allow for free expression. You can be harassed and thrown in jail, even murdered. If you get crosswise the ruling party turkeys, the same thing Turkey has elections. They have regional elections. They have politicians, they have legislative body, but it's a strongman state in which aired Lon controls the main ways of people getting their information, and he has shrunk civil society, and then the, the actual existing biggest country in the world, which is still nominally communist Chinese communist party runs China has evolved in this fascinating way where it's a state managed Mark. Economy, that is also not at all liberal, in fact, has gotten probably less liberal, so we did a whole podcast about the camps that they're putting the Muslim weaker minority into there's all sorts of creepy, and crazy stories about their digital use of surveillance to survey their own population and curtail their freedom, so around the world, you're seeing huge challenges to the system of liberal democracy, as different forms of more authoritarian government, flourish, and even backsliding, happens in countries that were, formerly liberal democracies like say, Hungary, and Poland where there have been steps by the ruling right wing populist parties in both of those places just sort of Kerr tale. Some of the liberal guardrails that preserve civil society, shutting down, one of the biggest universities in Hungary, for instance, which the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban just did. So that's the global context liberals in the as a political structure in the modern developed country is sort of under threat, and there's a philosophical debate within America. In which there's increasingly fights about whether America should be liberal like there. There's a on the right. There's like us explicitly ethno-nationalist challenge to liberalism, and there's a resurgent socialist challenge. I think to liberalism on the left now that resurgence socialist challenge. I think it gets a little muddy because I think a lot of people call themselves, socialist are really kind of social Democrats, or believing democratic socialism and don't want to get rid of the first amendment and don't actually want, like a one party state with the dictatorship of the proletariat, although there are some of those people and they really don't like liberalism. But in all these ways liberalism is I think it's not crazy to say, like someone under siege at the moment, even though let's be very clear, like it is the ordering principle of American life. It, it still is. We're still liberal democracy and Canada's deliver democracy in the UK still Liber democracy. And you know, we, we have lived through history before we're like genuine spread of fascism across the continent. Was happening say bright before World War Two, that's not the world. In right now. And yet, it is the case that liberalism, I think, is, is under threat, both politically and also theoretically. Into the breach coming to defend liberalism is Adam gopnik. He's author staff writer from yorker. He's a he's a great writer. I've been reading him forever. And he's got this new book out. It's a slim volume. It's a very easy read. That is just a kind of manifesto defending liberalism. It's called a thousand small sanitize, the moral adventure of liberalism, and the book is an attempt to basically take on liberalism, foes, on both the left and the right as he sees it, and defend it not from sort of crouching position. But actually that liberalism is the best system for ordering human affairs that we should be proud of it, and sing its praises and vandalize it, and that it's dangerous and scary to retreat from those commitments and I'm someone who is very sympathetic to that argument, but still finds myself deeply questioning where we are in this political moment. What the climate crisis will require from our political system. What the future of global conflict will look like and where this liberal vision fits into all this. And I think that's a pressing question for all of us in this very Aaron. I thought it was really important to sit down and wrestle all this over without him dumping. Why a book about liberalism well for two reasons, really Chris one is for the past thirty years. I've been writing about liberal philosophers thinkers, liberal actors, liberal novelists for the New Yorker and over that time I've developed a lots of ideas about liberalism, and at this moment of extreme national emergency. I thought it might be helpful for me. At least maybe for other people to put them all together in one book, the immediate impulse to do it as I explained at the beginning of the book is that my daughter Lydia was seventeen at the time was completely traumatized, and freaked out as she would say, by the results of that election. And I took her for a long walk around our neighborhood, and I failed completely to reassure her razor, spirits, or teacher. Why liberal humane values were important? So I had a kind of mental memorandum write a letter to Olympia on liberalism. And that's what this book is. It's really interesting moment. The book is, is, is quite good, and quite readable and accessible, but quite dense in terms of its idea. It's a moment win. There's a sense in which Liberalism's embattled but before we get to that, like the first chapter sort of what, how you're going to find the project like what is liberalism to your mind. Well, I can better say sort of in a certain ways. What is not? To me is a temperament in the first place. It's not an ideology that has axioms and consequences. It's not something where you can say, if you sign up for these principles, you are a liberal, because if you look at the great liberals throughout history, they've been by definition pragmatic, they are possessive, temperament, that explores and tries to reform the world in a certain way, if I had to narrow it to a simple concept, you would be it liberalism, is the great project of reform through reason. That's what really begins right around the time the civil war, Chris, you know, in, when in the aftermath of the American civil war in England and France. And in America, the idea that you can have a reforming project. You've trying to make the world better campaign against cruelty, both in terms of greater social equality, and in terms of greater individual freedom, greater tolerance for difference among individuals that you could attempt that remake the world on a large scale, but you could do it through reason buyer, Rushton is. One of the heroes of this book and one of my, here's the great gay civil rights organizer as much as wasn't activist. Had it in three simple dance steps constitutional procedures, democratic means nonviolent methods those with three dance steps of liberal activism. And I think that, that remains the same so for me, the program of reform through reason, kinds comes closest to encapsulating, what liberal is, and I want to be clear about the we're talking about liberalism because when I went into the book, I didn't know sort of, it's a capitus concept that, that sort of can take very different. Trims, Sundays people refer themselves as classic liberals. Right. And what they can find a way man. That's a red flag. And everyone's 'cause walks up to you at a party like well, I'm really I'm a classical liberal, or like you see in the Twitter handles, like go run a million miles of free-market conservative. That means that means a conservative, who may have some mild. Libertarian, right. But that's what that means. But the liberalism on talking about his above. Oh if you want to attach a name to it. It's the liberalism of John Stuart mill as much as Mark says the father of radical leftism, Jon Stewart Mills the father. Liberal of the liberal left, and it's his ideas on freedom on quality, and particularly of his simple conception, that there was no tension between being for the expansion of individual freedom to the maximum possible and to the achievement of social quality to the maximum possible. You know, conservatives always say, well, you can't have both right right there. We're, we're we're trading off collective in the individual and a society where individuals flourish maximally is necessarily a society that in equality and limited the call now. The core insight. The core. Beautiful leap, the sublime conception of liberalism, is that they're not contradictory. That's what John Stewart mill just did. That's why he wrote both on liberty, which is the best book ever written in eighteen fifty nine about the are absolute right to speak freely, and every situation, no ideas to perfect to withstand scrutiny, and also wrote with his great love. Her and teacher. Harry Taylor on the subjection of women, which is a great book that makes the radical case for absolute women's equality for feminism. I really great feminist mess manifesto, and they don't see these two books as being in any way contradictory. Of course, if you believe in maximum freedom free, she individual. When other people are being deprived of their freedom being oppressed. In ways that in makes them unable to exercise their freedom. Your freedom is limited definitional. Right. You're living in a world in which the possibility of personal fulfillment is, is far more limited. So that's the great project when I call this book, the moral adventure of liberalism, that's exactly the moral adventure. I have in mind, the possibility that we could be both free to fulfil ourselves as individuals and believe in ever-greater social equality. Among different peoples, what I wanted to do in this book, immediately for the sake of explaining it to my daughter, but also more broadly in terms of trying to reintroduce liberalism advocate for liberalism a new way. So I wanted to make a bit more of the temperamental side. I wanted to be about liberal people. You know, when we talk about liberalism, it can often seem drained of individuals. It's a temperament and a program that doesn't have obvious heroes the way that the radical leftism does, or the way that the right does in the same way because it's all about, in many ways the heroism of compromise. It doesn't present heroic figures in epic figures, and quite the same way and yet, I think that the history of liberalism has been filled with absolutely heroic human beings, men and women, both. And I wanted to emphasize that part of it is not a lot of commonality between say Adam Smith, and by rust, and it was just going to say, yes, by arrest by reston and yet Adam Smith's which you will never get by reading the pages of Forbes or the Wall Street Journal. Adam Smith's key insight, was not the markets make men free. It's the free people move towards markets. It's that social sympathy. Our ability to feel we would now say, empathetic for people with whom we don't share genes. We're not part of our clan. Not part of our tribe. That's the key thing that enables us to live social beings. And that if you don't have broad social sympathy markets won't take. This is not an abstract idea, Chris, this is exactly what we've seen throughout eastern Europe and since the fall of communism that it's not enough just introduced free market institutions. If you don't have social capital already in place that can enable you to have the habits of trust of being law abiding, this experience of working in conditions of trust with people who you don't know with strangers. And if you don't have those things, in place, then capitalism, very quickly becomes kleptocracy. There's a bunch of places to go on the sort of left. Critique of this, you devote a chapter to the right. Critique left critique of level was just talking before we put the recorders on about reconstruction because I think that's an interesting place where these things are intention, so they were called the radical Republicans and they were kind of they were temperamentally radical. They were embattled certain embattled. What they were calling for which was genuine multiracial democracy in America was essentially liberal. I to my mind it was entirely liberal, and they as you know, I wrote a long piece about reconstruct. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very good piece for the thank you for the New Yorker. Not that long ago. One of the tragedies of that time is that exactly the people who were designated radicals were calling for liberal change. They were calling for non-violent agrarian reform. They were calling for the session to citizenship of the ex slaves. They were calling for fair elections and open procedures that. What they, that's what they constitutional protection. Exactly. But they were not calling. And perhaps they should have. Well, they were calling for some redistributionist land, absolutely, but done on by constitutional measures, not by simple requisition, and they were not calling for as a radical leftist, civic, always called in every other circumstance of that kind China, Soviet Union. Let alone Camnbodian. They were not calling for the removal of the ruling classes of the, the south. They were calling for the. The expansion of opportunity of property. They weren't saying let's kill all this the confederate generals that we have never even remotely part of the program. And I say that because it often is right there were voices back, then, who thought that a lot, more folks have showed him swinging from lamp. And they might even see relief been. Right. One of the great failures of that period, I've always thought crisis, the failure of Robert E Lee in the rest of confederate leadership say, well, the war is over. We've lost the only thing we can accept his is the black people will have the vote and black men. If we can't treat them as brothers, we can treat them as fellow citizens, long street grade. Confederate general did say that's it. Exactly that and was a pariah because of world would have been in the United States would have been a different place. So to my mind what we're talking about there is the liberal tradition. Those are liberal goals, achieved by liberal means. And it's not accidental that those are in effect the followers of the late Lincoln Lincoln goes through a long complicated evolution. I wrote a book about women in Darwin decade ago. But at the end of it Lincoln is clearly for black in franchise. That's why John Wilkes booth. Here's and speak up for the vote for black veterans. And he says, now, I have to put him over because that's an word enfranchisement, and that's the immediate cost of Lincoln, getting killed is because he stands up for black entrant tribesmen. So I think that in that sense they are radicals, but there Lincolnian radical. But here's the thing, that's the thing that stocks me as someone who I think, is sort of the perfect target audience for this book because I think I generally, I'm a liberal, but I have these kind of sympathies for certain kinds of kind of radicalism. And the sympathies are strongest when I have sort of hindsight view rate of moment of history where the people who are the radicals were calling for things that were completely reasonable reasonable evidently, right? I mean, even marks right says, universal suffrage. Right. This is the position of marks marks also is on the right side and get understands perfectly well, the civil war understands the, the stakes of it as well. And I guess the question then becomes like do you go in your head about like what am I missing now? Right. If I'm in the. Of kind of temperamental reformist inclination. Am I missing the great moral prophecy of this moment in the way that those people who got tagged as radicals back then were able to see? That's I tried this guy with the moral project of liberalism is, and now you've defined with the moral estimable ISM. Are you ready to make that leap when it's essential? We're living through one right now with the Trump administration and specifically with the question of Trump's impeachment. That's a good example. Let Shamin there's a strong prudential argument to be made against it. We've my benefit by not pursuing Trump's impeachment, but there's a very even stronger in my mind principled argument to make say, you know what the radical argument here say to hell with the consequences. This is unquestionably. The right thing to do constitutionally, is, is even stronger to my mind for me. That's a local in immediate. I mean something even bigger, right? Like I mean like a vision of a society that doesn't have internal combustion engines ended as radically reoriented around save of the question climate change. It's like there's just this worry, I. Always have even because I'm disposition we pulled towards exactly the incremental was even describe. And also defender of it. Yeah, we'll just to put my car is on the table. Like, I I'm, I'm, I'm a liberal, that, that I missing in this moment, the kind of moral prophecy, that only a certain kind of like zealotry provides short to thinks about it. Let's deal with the specifics. I global warming if we're to have that kind of morals eligibility in office in operation. Unless just imagine for a moment that the green new dealers is highly improbable won the presidency majority in the Senate, and all that, I know your point is that we don't even need that we just have to act. What's going to happen inevitably and the nature of human societies? People are going to descend people are going to object. They're going to be a lot of them is exactly what we've lived through in France in the past year, Macron broth, through what by most ends to be a radical green project, which involved raising taxes on gasoline, president McCollum did relatively small tax. Site. It created an enormous social conflagration, not on the part of large extractive energy industries. But on the part of rural workers, who need their cars to get to work, and who didn't want to pay more money for gasoline, and you have a major social upheaval. The question is there's always going to be resistance. And the always going to be dissent against any radical project. We put in the question for radicalism is what do you do with the dissenters and the record of radicalism in power about what you do with the dissenters is not good. You take the kulaks who don't wanna have live on collective farms, and you starve them out a look. I believe that liberalism has to go through an intensive moral accountancy, and I tried to do some of it in this book, I talk at length in the chapter on the left critique of liberalism about things like the Congo, genocide. How is it that you and I, not our children, so much were raised not to see the genocide in the Congo, the part of the Belgians in the early nineteen hundreds as a human crime on par with if not on par with of the same kind as. The, the Jewish genocide in Germany. That was a failure of liberal vision. It was a failure of liberal practice both in having it happen. And then forgetting that had had we need to do that kind of moral counting all the time. The radical left has to do the same kind of moral accounting, I think even more grievously, and even more extensively because that question of what if you believe in radical action, you're going to do about all the people who inevitably and certainly are going to descent, and oppose your radical action is a question that doesn't have to my mind doesn't have a real principal dancer, liberalism has the liberal tradition does have a good principal answer for that. And it says you're going to try and persuade placate and you're going to accept the incremental ISM is not a thing good in itself. Chris, but incremental ISM is a necessary consequence of pluralism. It's built in that way. So let's talk a little bit about this moment, and the sort of rise of the illiberal, right? Which I think is a real spectre. It's real. It's not hypothetical. What if yeah, it's very real. I mean you make an interesting argument the book about of two minds right that there's actually a kind of a ubiquitous throughout history, presence of this kind of thinking and appeal the appeal of the strong, man, you read about how that sort of always looms there. It's the majority of the history of mankind. The history of strongman politics. Right. I mean that's right. Exactly like most of human organization, civilization is massively higher coal massively in a gala, -tarian, and essentially uses the power of brute force to enforce hierarchy, that's most of humanity Trump is the American exception. But he's the human historical norm tragically. But there's a sort of deeper thing about kind of what the which I think is really heady stuff right now, which is like the kind of blood and soil, call this question about liberalism is weak and thin gruel. It's like drinking broth is it can't compete with the hardiness of a fully realized sort of reactionary populism that talks about your rooted nece to a place and that place belonging to you, and you belong to it. And the thickness of that is proving to be in a just sort of political sense. When you look at the elections across Europe, the kind of wishy washy social democrat. Center-left is getting its ask kicked all over the place by the blood and soil right wing populace is no question about it. And I try to give as empathetic reading again to blood and soy populace in their highest kinds. I, I make something in the chapter on the right wing attack on liberalism of someone who is not a right winger. Really the great Canadian philosopher, Charles Charles Taylor, who says that he's actually a social democrat, but he's a Catholic is a Roman Catholic. And his point is liberals, ask the question. Always who am I and the real human question is where am I where am I located? What is what am I rooted in exactly? What's the nexus exactly being that I am, as opposed to me as the individual walking through the world, settling some sort of liver? Tori project exactly seeking my utilities and utilities, perhaps for my children. That's a big question. That's a totally legitimate line of inquiry. And it's a powerful reminder of some of the intellectual and even more importantly, the emotional weaknesses of liberalism, what liberals, I think would say. Response. What my liberalism was sane response is first of all, liberalism, is actually been very good at the project of making community. It's why we live in New York. You know, I never get over the miracle of New York, we live in a in a city in which Lubavitchers and satmars and eight Theus and Muslims really do live together. That's a community. A tolerant community is another kind of community pluralistic community is another kind of community. I delight in the exactly in the variety of kinds that I can find every time in New York, that's not an absence of community. It's a particular kind of community that we relish, and the other thing, I'd say, is that traditionally liberalism is been a unifying project. You know, the great liberal nations, like I forgive me, but candidates where I come from right? And Canada came together because liberals, properly so called said, you know what, there are ways in which to radically different people's French speaking Catholics and English speaking Protestants, can share in common national project that what unites us is greater than what divides us. That's the question we say. Where am I you say, well, I'm in Canada. That means that I extend my sense of citizenship to a French speaking Catholic, and I include the juice who've just come off the boat or the Ukrainians or the, the Icelanders in it. So and yet it's been a remarkably fraught project. I mean, what part of part of what's fascinating to me? And I've been thinking about this because I was having conversation with petrograd and kief recently we show reds from New Yorkers. Well about say nothing and I was talking to him, and I was talking to British journalist friend of mine about the GOP, which is the sort of unionist loyalist party hottest in party in Northern Ireland, right? And they're right now, part of the conservative collision, they make it up, and I was trying to sort of mind, I was like, well, what are the politics there? Like on the left right spectrum. You said it's kind of hard and complicated and hard to say because the issue, they care about is orthogonal to that. And he what he compared it to as a block qua-, which, like is the Bloc Quebecois left is it right like nationalist? It's a nationalist party. Like there's some traditionally left projects, they go for their some traditionally wing rhetoric tropes, they used but funding. Mentally, like it's interesting, the way that, that kind of politics, sits strangely in the vector of how we've come to think of that left writes back on, look, politics. Whenever always be where, where people were sitting at the national assembly infringe in seventy ninety, so obviously left and right, they're going to be impoverished concepts or somewhat impoverished concepts. I'm of the view that it's huge temptation, and in great danger for policy. What we'll liberal minded people do they? Oh, well, we can benefit from the Hague. You ities of those kinds of activists politics, and we'll be able to benefit from it. You know, you see it, even now, people do say sometimes. Well, look Trump is horrible, right? But he's exploded the norms of American government. That's a good thing, because we can bet we on the progressive side, right will benefit in the next cycle will benefit from having those norms exploded, because we won't have to pay the same kind of attention to the impediments of democratic process. That's the kind of thing that said every time I feel passionately about this. So forgive me because every time with our Teheran's come to power. There's an opportunistic left response to think oh, we can that'll be good in the long run. That'll heightened, the contradictions we'll be able to take advantage that, that never happens. What happens is that it only that kind of Pacific, and that kind of opportunism only feeds, the right wing autocrats, nationalism, isn't something that you can you can play games with you can play dice with. It's always a huge danger. So the question is, what does liberalism, do with what do we make of that kind of nationalist, fervor? We can't deny it, and I say, at the end of the chapter on the right, you know, Goya's grades statements sleep of reason, begets monsters, those monsters not going away. We can't master them, but we can manage them. And that's part of the political project of liberalism. It's something that I think that Obama was good at at at his finest moments. It's finding a way of having a credible way to talk about patriotism, and talk patriotically without falling into the trap of nationalism different things and they can be they can be defined differently. Quick story, my son Luke worked on the maximum. Campaign Staten Island to be on this podcast and a few weeks. So, well, fantastic. Now, he's a fascinating guy. Totally fascinating now. Everybody talked about AO see and well they shouldn't. She represents all kinds of positive in fascinating things, but she was running in a district where you're a high could win with the democratic pin on maybe. No surprise that you would win it would be startling. If I could Mexico's was running in the most Republican district in New York City by far in one of where they were behind by forty points when they started what did the kids who are working for max rose have to learn to do. They had to learn to talk a credible language of patriotic commitment to people who had to American flags on their porch. When you came in and whose family define their value by how many people had been in the service and, and by their history of service now that's not the social milieu that a lot of the kids who are working for max rose came from, but they had to learn to respect another million, and they had to learn to talk a language that was credible to them, and they won. And they learned it, and they want, now that's a positive model. It seems to me of how liberalism deals with the perpetual temptation of nationalism of blood and soil nationalism. It isn't something historically. That is undefeatable. It isn't something that doesn't have ways of being raised in channeled into a positive benevolent directions. Historically, it can be it just requires a lot of work. And that's again, that's the work of politics rather than the invocation of ideology. I wanna talk about what happens when the lessons of illiberal, ISM, the dangers of liberalism are forgotten. We'll do that right after this. I'm Chuck Rosenberg minute podcast. The oath truck Rosenberg is based on a simple premise thoughtful conversations with interesting people like Jim Komi Lisa, Monaco, and pre Peron. Each of them. Took an oath as I did to support and defend the constitution of the United States. The oath with Chuck, Rosenberg. Listen for free, where every get your podcasts. What is your understanding of the moment? I mean I have like I think part of me has a ext. Stream, -ly autumn's razor vision of the rise of the menace of sort of right wing blood and soil with or carrion populism, which is essentially just the generation that fought fascism and experience fascism. Firsthand is essentially died out, and with it the kind of living memory of what this politics, does to people, what it does to a society, the hell on earth, that it wrought and a huge part of what we're dealing with is just that is just. Yeah, just an Asia. Like, we, you know, the, the world, the western world fought this great battle against this great monster. And so many people were swept up in as either advocates are complicit in so many people died at its hands. The war that ultimately defeated it killed what twenty million people more more. That, that memory is just like that was just like visceral woven into the building of institutions all of it, and on the continent, particularly in Europe and is essentially faded. I think that's true. And I think it's significant, by the way, that in France, though, the National Front has a great deal of power, I would say that it's almost impossible for the National Front ever to win a presidential election is that because France is one place where the memory of the catastrophe because it took the, the role of an occupation rather than of a national movement was actually both. But they remember they remember it as a brutal occupation. Yes. So th this precise question is currently shaping polish ball, literally that historical question. And as a consequence win the National Front candidate has even the chance of winning the presidency all of the respectable. Right. All of the are Republican party, and they call themselves Republicans now come together against the National Front. The disaster, we've seen happening here, right with the supposedly respectable constitutional conservatives have coalesced around and. Authoritarian nationalist. I think it would be hard to have happened in France. Exactly because of that historical memory, but that's a foot that's the side in this largest story. But let me say something challenging when that Kristen, I also think that there's been another companion Emna show. And that is an amnesiac about the experience of Soviet Marxism. And what happened in eastern Europe? That's easily forgotten part because let's be honest about this because the reconstruction of Russia and eastern Europe was so catastrophic and failed so badly to do the things that it was that were promised that were expected. But nonetheless is a consequence very often hard. I have a lot of twenty something friends who are deeply drawn to the tone, the rhetoric of radical Marxism. What they don't have is very clear specific idea of what it was like, in power, what would actually happen in power. And of course, the standard answer to that is to say, oh, well, those were the, the bad accidents of the wrong, people putting it into. Our right? It was just it was unlucky that had happened in Russia. It was unfortunate. It'd happened in China. We didn't it was terrible job in eastern, Germany, and so on. Right. Right. And the point I was trying to make earlier is, is that when you have when you believe you have a monopoly on virtue and truth, and you have to deal as anyone who is in power anywhere have to deal with dissent. It's very, very hard to deal with it in the humane way that liberal institutions attempt to guarantee attempt to guarantee, is the key qualifier there, there's never been a time in the history of modern liberalism and the modern liberal state. You know, I talked to moment ago about what for me is one of the great stains on the history of liberalism. And that is the, the Congo, genocide. Right. Other early nineteen hundreds horrific story. It wasn't Great Britain, nor Francey was Belgium, but it was part of the concert of Europe, and it was a genocide and horrific nonetheless, the way the world found out about it was because it was a free press in Britain, and France. Morale began reporting on it and he was able to talk about it, and finally get it to parliament not entirely. Unlike the. Way that American atrocities in Vietnam me, lie actually came into life magazine. If you're too young to recall, but I remember the member the issue. Now, does that suddenly make the eagles dissolve or go away? No, not at all. But liberalism is the one form of government that I know of that implants, a corrective conscience at the heart of its institutions. It doesn't always operate as we would want it to, but it's there that's part of our responsibility. Isn't there though a degree to which, again, this sort of, there's sort of definitional question? We're chasing our tails around with the definition of socialism recently in the two, which that sort of necessarily connects to much more authoritarian modes of governance. You know, Stalin's Russia, for instance, doesn't have to be silenced rushing, just making mediocre governance, like, in Europe, in short, right after I guess, the question is the critics of liberals in both on the left one rideshare this in common which they don't I think they all think that liberals are either ridiculous in what they say. They believe or lying about what they believe right? I mean, the Marxist critique, obviously, the this sort of original radical left. Critique is that is essentially a an invented language to mask power relations in the relations about that. Which you, you talk head on in that chapter, and that it essentially is used. And I think part of what drives people crazy is they do see very often. And I'm now speaking from left perspective, people using the temperamental invitations you're using and the linguistic indications of liberalism, as means of pursuing, what is a centrally this kind of, like pro status quo project. Right. That can happen. And, and let's add right there. There's nothing illegal about a pro status quo project. You know, that's one of the things you have to accept my point is, is that the well I'm not saying ban approach crowded. I'm just that's not that's not a trivial point in the sense, Chris that, that, that might be the case, and it would be one of the voices in the choir that you're going to have to deal with the liberal tradition that I'm talking about is one in which is always trying to move for reform and is responsible for the most radical reforms in history. That's one thing that I do feel passionately about Chris is that when you look at the condition of contemporary modern liberal democracies that in one way or another adhere to this temperament, ideology philosophy way practice, it's maybe a better word called liberalism. They have achieved a on the whole greater prosperity and without question, greater pluralism than any other societies known to human history. That's just a fact, now, they may they are imperfect in one thousand ways, they have a million faults, and their thousand million things that are in need of reform. But when if what you've, I'll you is the possibility of pluralism, if you value, the idea that you can be a sexual minority and still live. Filled life. Choose your part. And Mary that doesn't that has never happened before in human history. That's unique and you can argue that there were antique examples, but as a legal principle that has eleven principle and sort of modern life. Yes, that has never happened before in history. That's not accidental. That's something that's produced by the working out of liberal institutions of ground swells from below of the possibility of building communities that are outside the control of the state for the no more than stonewall, right there. Right. All of those things. It enables people to speak freely proposed new things all of that enables Jon Stewart Mills. Great dream of both greater social equality and greater capacity for individual fulfillment to take place. They really do take place. Right. But you've you've just put your finger on to me. What's the paradox, right? And the paradox will liberalism. And you talk about this in the book. Is that like shown wall was a militant moment, driven by people who were militant who threw bottles at the cops on the cubs tried to arrest them like that moment? And many of the movements that have produced the kinds of thing, it feels like a little bit of this thing, where it's like you have these militant people who are kind of zealots, who may have ideologies, that are a little bit orthogonal, or even a postal liberalism and because of the way liberalism has functioned, right? They're able to sort of get their claims they're able to take advantage. Right. But without the point the point I want to make is without that militancy than the than the project is so absolutely. But without the liberal institution, the project is, well, I guess my point is that they need each other, right. I mean like totally. And that's why the hero, one of the heroes of this book is Frederick, Douglass, right? Yes, I have called the greatest American and I believe, was the greatest American one of the things that makes Douglas, I do not include in this book as a liberal, which is interesting, right? Because I don't think that's a good way of seeing Douglas Douglas is fascinating. Because he embodies in one person hood, the radical prophet and liberal, liberal politician and includes both and he was uncompromising in his obviously, in his abolitionist them. But in the fullness of the census, let's thing in the world. You would call Frederick Douglass was a centrist, right? Or even an incremental est right way, but he was totally committed to constitutional means totally committed to constitutional, he believed that the United States constitution was a liberty document those are his words and that is it yet to be fulfilled. It's the beginning of Obama ISM is in Frederick Douglass, and he chose to align himself with Lincoln instead of John Brown. He had that choice. He could go in the direction of extreme, essentially terrorist, violence, or in the direction of democratic politics and the Republican party and face dread, knowing both choices directly. He chose the path of Lincoln and Democratic Party politics. Republican party is as it was then and he never changed. He even through the horrors of reconstruction. He remained devoted to the Republican party as it was then, and to the project of building social capital, for black people banks and universities and, and the rest of the full sort of institutional panoply of the production of law, citizenship, that entire suite, liberal, GM's? Guarantees liberal guarantees. So Douglas is a fascinating character because he, he combines, do we need both historically. Of course, we do. Of course, we do. My point is, is that without the liberal institutions that enable those radical impulses to actually find broad coalition of consent. They tend to be nothing and in, in societies that point, let's pointed to the look of contemporary Iran, those impulses toward self liberation for gay people among among others, but running people, particularly who are particularly brutalised persecuted there have the same impulses and they're just brutally shut down time and time again, there are no liberal institutions in Iran, that can take that radical kindling and turn it into a safe elimination Q auto eliminate. Do you think that the I go back and forth on this about the degree to which there's been some shift internally in the American right away from the broad project of liberalism? You know, there's conservative liberal within the project of like liberal democracy. But like, I don't know. I mean Trump is so. Oh, sweet. Generous, do you think there's a broader shared like authoritarianism throughout the American conservative movement? Does it predate Trump? Yeah. I think so, obviously American conservatives complicated phenomenon got helped me sing using the word phenomenon I never would use that. Look, one of the things I say in the book, Tim using the Obama eight look, right rather than the Ivy leagues. So, but look or right, right. Yes. Exactly. That's the one I do all the time. I'll say kind of sort of by the way, if you've emailed me about how much I kinda sorta I have received your emails in your correct? One of the things it's clear and it's become particularly clear in the last couple of days tragically. Is that the right wing American self counting the we're for limited government is clearly absurd, right? There's never been more of a big government initiative than what's going on with abortion rights right now. I mean you and I say this in the book before just happen. Yeah. That you're going to have to have pregnancy. Police you're gonna literally have to have a policeman in an obstetrician's office to police both the doctor and the pregnant woman, you cannot imagine anything that represents the intrusion of the state into people's lives more than that. They believe in it. They justified, but the notion that conservatives in America stands, we're limited government. I think is false. I do think that the key things about conservatives in America often overlooked is that. Vows reverence for religion, which is clearly the core thing. That's why then Jellicoe vote for Trump Trump is the least religious, man imaginable, but he offers them protection for their their practice which they feel is threatened. And the other thing is referenced for the military. I think that's a huge part, you know, the combination American combination of militarism and. But what's amazing about that, right? I mean this is the thing. I think about, you know, I think Corey Robin on this. I think one of the more persuasive about what, what the project of conservatism is, and he sort of use it as reaction to projects of liberation liberation is it, basically, how he sees it. You know, I it drives me crazy. This idea like limited government, as even a useful framework or even something that's like observed in the breach like it just doesn't it has nothing to do with having no American politics turns on the access of, like limited government. What the state and Mark like it all has to do with, like different interests. They're fighting with each other Giffen issues. But I would emphasize different ideas, different ideas. Right. Not the ideal of limited. Government thing that's that is not there's some tiny there's like seventeen people who've like went to some libertarian day camp. And like really believe that, but I say that in the there are different ideals. They're different ideas about the role of God and religion in one's. Yes that we can't wish away because they're there. I don't think and I tried to say in the book. Think there is a genuine distinguished, and important truly conservative tradition in political thought that has not merely reactionary that isn't just in an attempt to break programs of liberation and it rests. Exactly on the, the recognition that are hunger for identity. Our need for connection is overwhelming. And that liberalism impedes at liberalism access to stop, Ron. I come back again, to Chuck Taylors point, we need to ask where am I and liberalism doesn't seem to give a good as to that. That's not a reactionary. That's not just saying, I don't want black people to have the vote or get welfare that saying what I'm being offered by my social arrangement fails to satisfy my, my deepest needs, and as I say, in the book, and it's actually my favorite part of the book, though. I don't think anybody has ever mentioned it yet is that, you know, that's deeply tied to the reality of the tragic nature of our circumstances. We are mortal creatures if we got the best government imaginable, with national health care. Care. And with actually fair voting democratic procedures. We abolish the electoral college, and Roe v. Wade was saved. And still, we still would be stuck with the fact of mortality with the misery of human life with the inability to connect, you know, our inability to get everything we want. Yeah. Quote wants to profile of Willie Nelson. Very great man and Willie Nelson say what you understand is everybody in the audience is out there with their second choice, and that's what makes the jukebox play and that's true. You know, human life has a deep, deep sadness in the liberal project of all of reform can seem fatuous compared with the full enormity of human suffering, and human unhappiness. That's not a trivial observation that's deepen the richest kind of conservative political philosophy. I don't think it's right. I mean, it's not the project that we can have of you're saying, like, the, the, your sue, we've right this, this was my sort of reading of this chapter from yours because you do use Taylor a lot, which is interesting. You're trying very hard to find something that you can wrestle. With amiably. But, like the redeemable core, there is this sort of an idea of kind of rudeness and the project of human life being transcendent past. Yes, the thousand small Saturday's that, that, that's that liberalism offers for us for our brief little wink of existence on this planet. Now, obviously, I'm a thousand small Senator. These guy, I think that the that the liberal project of campaigning against royalty is a noble one because we can recognize cruelty, when we see it, we can't solve the existential horror of, of human existence. We can keep people from torturing other people, we can keep people from locking people in solitary confinement for forty years of time. There's lots of specific things specific cruelties that we can cure and liberalism has been very successful in curing a lot of those specific royalties. So I'm don't share that view. But I do think it's a distinguished view and it's the can't simply be relegated to, oh, the one. Stop on somebody else from being liberated. Do you view this? In sort of apocalypse or as sort of eternal recurrence. Terms, meaning like, there are moods of human organization, human domination, that characterized broad swath of different parts of history of different parts of the world, right? Global histories complicated the way that Incan society was set up is very different than say, Belgian society cetera. However, you know, there was obviously, this idea that, like we've post Cold War sort of all agreed on the democracy were moving towards a world in which, that's the case. The number of democratic states shoots up. There's a sense, now, I think of like both backsliding, and also the idea that like maybe the future belongs to the Chinese model. Like, yes, we were was, you know, we humans have tried different kind of thing, and the authoritarian model, married to a free market, model is actually actually works for me. When you and I were growing up, Chris one of the axioms of the American right? Was that free markets necessarily produce civic freedom? Right. You can't have entrepreneurial energies without having broadly individualistic pursuits. Stirred up to be totally false turn out to be totally false. Now. Maybe it won't turn out to be totally false. Maybe fifty years from now, we'll say, you know there was so much social capital being built up in China at that time, then, of course the Chinese revolution was bound to happen. Right. Right. That could happen to I make. No predictions about it. But certainly doesn't seem to be the case right now. I'd see it in two different ways. I'd say that the struggle between what Karl Popper called closed and open societies is permanent one, the will always be move towards openness. Pluralism cosmopolitanism, and that will always be met in any historical moment with a move not always equal, but very strong towards tribalism community safety. Familiarity the closed society. It's certainly never historical moment. We know that. That's, that's what's happened. And if you wanna look more locally at the United States, one of the shocking things about this I say is we all are hypersensitive to economic causes right Akron. No longer has a tire plant, and therefore the people in Akron vote. Donald trump. Remember the height of American prosperity. Huge numbers of Americans believe that Dwight Eisenhower was a communist attack, or the John Kennedy was a communist. They really did believe there, when, when John Kennedy arrived in Dallas. That's all the billboards said, we're many several billboards said arrest him for treason. He's communist. Yes. John kennedy. Yeah. So in that sense, it's always, it's a permanent feature certainly of, of American politics. What I would say. And this is my passion is, is my belief. It's why I wrote this book is that liberalism in that broad temperamental sense, we've been talking about today, a belief in a campaign against cruelty, a belief that compassion for other people. Suffering is the most important social emotion that we can have and a belief that we can actually build societies and institutions that seek to implant those emotions, those sympathetic emotions and our social institutions, that's kind of unique in human history. That's not something you find replicated over and over again. What is true? I think and this is where the book ends actually, is that. On the whole in. It's kind of weirdly, cheering thing when you're in a dark apocalyptic mood, which I am almost all the time these days is June being are pretty good at daily coexistence. Right. You know, the I did a lecture when the Metropolitan Museum had this great show called Jerusalem, one thousand what was, so tragic about that was that in the year, one thousand in Jerusalem, Jews, and Muslims and Christians, actually managed to get along reasonably. Well, they actually existed quite well, but they had no practice. Implore listen, it was all just improvisational coexistence, which worked until the crusades came. And then the Muslims massacred, the Christians Christians massacred the Muslims, and everybody massacred the Jews. Right. That's the classic thing that happens. And what I said, at the end of the lecture is, is that the dream of liberal societies is to make that practice of coexistence into principle of pluralism into principal practice that we can follow. And that's why I say in the book that liberalism is not an ideology apply to life. It's what we know about life apply to political ideology. It say we really are. Capable of coexistence, but week after try and see what enables us to coexist and make that into a permanent political practice. That's for me is the part of liberalism. That is at once to use your phrase is permanent. But is also part of maternity, plus apart monitor right? Oh, there's this question to me, the, the question that says the heart of all this is that we've, we've got the single the nation state. That is a historically contingent create an it's not be humans have not always organize themselves. These way it's the case that particularly sort of nation states, as ethno-nationalist categories, which is largely in the cotton European continent. The I learned this from Tony jets amazing book post war, which is, basically that all the ethnic cleansing happen happens the world were to actually sorts all the countries for the first time into like, oh, it's like all the German speaking, people go here and all the, you know, and countries polyglot, like Hungary, suddenly, get cosmetics. That's exactly. So you've got this. You've got this situation where I guess my point is, there's a historically continue. Geant institution of the center of this whole thing, which is the nation. But the nation state that we're all dealing with, and we're all trying to figure out how to define this era, and it's the question of, like, how much that category is fixed. And how movable it is there were moments, I think, were a lot of people thought that it was obviously outdated notion. That would fade away in the European Union. Yes. Like that just seems further and further away that dream of that. You know, something super national or something subnational, right? Like, you know, return to city states whatever, which is very hard to sort of conceptualize, your way out of this fundamental building block that there is this extremely big fight about right now. I think this is true. Listen. I, I had five ruled the world with all be sitting states because I don't think it's possible to have real patriotic feelings about anything, much bigger than the city on a total patriot of New York somewhat of Paris. But that's what my that's where my identity resides. It's in New York, I definitely. Couldn't have one max roses. I can't go win district in Massachusetts. Yeah. That'd be too into me. You know, the too many trees up there. So that's where I live, and I could easily imagine never leaving New York City for a lifetime. Right. So, but that's where my patriotism, resides. So the nation state. I think you're right. Is an artificial construct in, in all those ways. What I'd say is, is that the liberal tradition? I'm talking about. It's funny you mentioned Tony shut because he's one of the two men, I dedicate the book to in the end. I knew him well and thought he was a heroic figure, and at the end of that book in throughout Tony's life, each Ohka, sort of Orwellian Orwellian view of it. We can't fix those huge things we can't suddenly history, makes nation-states history makes China more powerful than us, and all those things we're not in control of history. And we can't we can't hope to be we are in control of our own campaign against cruelty. We are in control of our own appetite for specific reform. Those are things we can actually do we can look around. In the world and say this is wrong. This is cruel. This is evil and we can fix it. What we can't do is say, I have a vision of what the twenty first century can be, and I will somehow be able to stand sheet that vision because of the power of my imagination, that's where the bad stuff happens and where the good stuff happens isn't exactly in the more modest and yet very, very potent form of a thousand small sanity, he said, pulling in the, you know, pulling in his slogan again at the end, but I really do believe. That's true. Yeah, Tony, Tony who obviously his best past and is a great intellectual hero of mine and, and. I think it was a model of ultimately his fills off, gory nations, very much in line with yours, and that's articulated here, and in some ways, postwar is a historical treatment of precisely why we ended up essentially on agreeing on a thousand small Senate. He's as the as the Bronco right? Yes. Exactly. Why one of the reasons why he's one of the two thinkers, I dedicated this book to Adam gopnik is a staff writer for the New Yorker. He's written at the strangers gate. Arrivals in New York. The table comes first, along with I think a dozen other books at this point that his latest book is called a thousand small sanitize, the great book about liberalism, you'll read it in about a day, highly recommended Adam. Goldman, thank you very much. Chris is wonderful conversation. Thank you. What's it gonna my great, thanks to Adam gopnik author staff writer for the New Yorker. The book is called a thousand small sanitize, the moral adventure of liberalism. He's also written a bunch of other books, including strangers gate, rivals in New York angels, in ages, a short book about Darwin, Lincoln and modern life. You can check out his works on our web page. We have a link to that as always. We love to hear from you. You can tweet us hashtag with pod emails with pot at gmaiLcom. We've gotten a bunch of feedback to in the wake of the mailbag episode and a lot of great suggestions recently for guests who we are pursuing why is this happening is presented by MSNBC, and NBC news. Produced by the all in team and features music by Eddie Cooper, you can see more of our work, including links to things. We mentioned here by going to NBC news dot com slash wise is happening. Hi, it's joy Reid. If you love MSNBC where your heart on your sleeve at MSNBC store dot com, you can gear up with t shirts. Hoodies hats mugs and more from AM joy. And all your favorite MSNBC's shows shop now at MSNBC store dot com.

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Ep #102  1975 U.S. Open Champion, Lou Graham

Junior Golf Blueprint

1:54:10 hr | 1 year ago

Ep #102 1975 U.S. Open Champion, Lou Graham

"It didn't have any grass. It was bare dirt which was good because I had to stay low coming out of the trees and I had to get across a creek. Ovarian I I had about one hundred and seventy five yard shot and so I got in figuring out what I take his three earned and just kind of bang it hard it down low clear creek if I can land right between those two traps only the space of about five yards wide something land right there because if I land on it real hot on the green it was go right on over so I had to kill it in that grass figuring. Yeah and if I could get hit grass jump onto the green on the first bounce. I'm I mean I'm figuring out what to do and I hit this three on an idea came out in about twenty yards out of the trees come run land right between the trapped where jumped on the green took off for the flag and that story was courtesy of the nineteen seventy five. US Open champion. Lou Gram Mr. Graham practices plays a lot. The club dry teach my golf in grew up around Nashville and is pretty very much a local legend as he won the nineteen seventy five years open and played on tour for awhile with six. PGA Tour Victories. Seven total professional wins. He he played on three different Ryder Cup teams which all three teams one play with. Nicholas Palmer all the great players in that time and is truly a humble man that is willing to sit down now at his age and talk to young pro like me and share my insights with listeners. Like US TREASUR and I hope everybody that listens. PODCASTS has an appreciation for the difficulty difficulty. It was back in his days in the sixties and seventies tour professional. That is not what it is today and there's a completely different storyline come from his from his era. So sit back and enjoy this because the stories are great and I I I mean I could have talked to this man for all day if either let me. Hey we actually went and our long What he had to do anyway so it was actually a fun fun episode? So you guys enjoy the podcast has always please subscribe and share with your friends. Find US on social media at Walter. PGA On facebook with junior golf blueprint. And you can find these episodes. And if you wanna see the videos of interviews that I do face to face you go find me on Patriotic Matt Walter Gulf. So sit back and enjoy and let's get started. I'll tell you about how I published. My podcast is anchor anchors free and they have plenty of creation tools. I lied to record. Edit your podcast right from your phone or your computer anchor also do all your distribution Shen for you and it can be heard on many different podcasting apps like spotify apple podcast. Many more is the easiest way eight to get started for free period. So if you want to start your own podcast download the free anchor at or go to anchor dot. FM to get started this episode of the junior golf blueprint is brought to you by future champions. Golf Future Champions Golf is one of the premier junior golf tours that is helping kids across our country and other countries have the best chance to get recruited and to go play at the next level in college with over one hundred twenty coaches in two thousand eighteen eighteen going to watch players at their events and some of these events hosting over six hundred players future champions. Golf is the tour to put your kids on to really early test to see if they have the right stuff to go the next level so go check him out. Future Champions Golf DOT COM or become one of their many of forty forty some odd thousand followers to go follow him on social media at Future Champions Golf Art Ladies and Gentlemen Today Today on the podcast. We have a very special guest is. This is our first major champion. WHO's GonNa make an appearance? He won the nineteen seventy-five US Open his. Name's James Lou gram. But he's a Tennessee. Native grew up playing for father on high school and went onto to Memphis I college days and even played for the army for a little bit. It and he's had quite a story Of Plan on the PJ toward played for Ryder Cup teams and really just really a unique experience for me as a golf professional to be able to watch a former tour breyer. Hang out in practice. Fifteen feet from me almost every day so before I get a chance to really embarrass you there Mr Graeme. Am please tell us your story. How did you get into the game of golf? Well I got into the game of Golf Shelby Park Right now to get up to The head of any practice area in San Jose area it was a little Navajo course down there and is right along the river. They called it riverside course had had about six or seven names over the years and years and I've told the store a lot of times it's quite a unique little spot down on there because when I was a kid growing up they had just built a thing and I'm talking about hours like growing up like five six years of age. It's really growing up. And and the grease air where out of see where Cedar Cinderella from the the heat and all the buildings downtown Nashville Asheville by coal and our trying to figure out a way what to do with the sender all the time this black stuff and so they were building this course that some guy came up in a great idea. Why don't we fix the Greens that are black? Therefore that will you'll be able to see them real easy and everything everything. So they brought the cinder out there and they just wanted May- degrees out of the senator was the size of maybe have golf ball to too about the satisfy your fist. And so you go around there and it wasn't a real cup in there. It's just a whole kind of Doug added in the middle of it. She hit a ball here. And you landed on those small centers about half of all it would stop born agreement but if he had on one of them you would bass thirty yards off the sand put a big cut and you saw. Aw and we all got where we would go over there with my dad and my older brother Mark. We went over there maybe three or four days a week in practice and and we all go where we would aim over beside the green. 'cause we didn't get a golf ball go. That's a that's A. I heard that about the shelby. Golf courses that's is kind of how they had like sanded Greens. But I don't know as it was actually cinders. That's interesting that I couldn't even imagine trying to. How how how did you make a Putt or you then put nobody reported put it on them? You just hit it on the green go to the next you know whatever it was but he was a good practice facility. You know the grass. Everything was just like the golf of course it had been used a few years before when they made the change in they just said we'll just fix this. Is You know we don't have to fool with the thing at all. But they cut the grass real good or super PACs area. Oh Yeah it's still is a great area. Where the first he is and a lot of junior golf taking place over there for for our area absolutely in so when you were you were growing up the The now is called. The school days was kind of a big tournament for area. And then you won on it three times as you're going up but one of the stories I've heard is the first time you teed it up. You weren't so pleased with how you did. And then that kind of sparked the fire back in those days is called a school board because the girls didn't play in it and it was. It was open to anybody who wanted to come play. And it's you know there was no charge and you'd get into qualifying for the different flights. You go into champ shift flight. I fly second. Fly whatever you know so the the first day that I wanted to get in and play older brother Marty. He was a year and a half older and I was ten years old. Two Times for Mardi would have been it would have been eleven or twelve and a I came in from playing and we finished playing. We're sitting on our front porch waiting from ZIP and and she came driving and we got into car answer drove off and she's turn around. She says well. How'd you play today? And I said I shot a hundred thirteen boy. I was mad and thirteen. She says well. Louis you're ten years old. You've never played eighteen holes in your life. I said I don't care. I shot one hundred thirteen Eh. But it didn't take long to get over Joe but it always determined but I can remember sitting out to Martin and I would go out and play bar CEOS in district when we could carry on bag with heavy clubs for the first five six years. We played you know. We're just use club here here near dad had or a great uncle head and everything and we basically I learned to play golf with wooden shafted clubs. Wow my great uncle ahead and he had quit playing and I wish I had. I got one of them that my dad cut down that I use. My First Club is a six iron. Aren't home wouldn't shafter job. But he had a unique leather golf bag. It was one of these when you sit down and just went right down. It was about a foot high. I just wanted to know stick any. There's nothing to hold it up just leather skirt stride to the ground as bagging nose day. Okay Tanja really different. When I was like I started going with my dad and my brother Marty about when I was like six years old he was seven and say and I would carry a black four or five clubs? Mahan for my dad would carry for my dad and I'd care about two clubs in each hand. Whatever and mud MARDI would care the rest of the bag you know and we'd go eighteen hose on Saturday? He'd be playing on Saturday and and like he's only started playing about six six eight months really but he'd give us a headgear was fifty cents with eighteen holes. We've got twenty cents a piece which is big bucks the man you know. It's funny because you're talking about that little wooden club that you had cut down for my my grandfather decided. He was a pretty good player back home in Pennsylvania and emitter he cut me down a a one iron a little. O Wilson Staff one iron. It's maybe like two feet long steel-shafted and had like the old you know the Green Lean velvet grips from back in the day. And I still have that one are sitting around and apparently his theory. was you know if the kid wants to play Golfie better learn how to hit a one iron I first and then he can play the rest of the way. So I'm this little three year. Old wack golf balls around the one iron bank. I'm a surprise you ever learn how to play off the ground. They didn't get off the ground very often. It was fun and you know it's it's what's interesting is for me is how we all had like. You know you know somebody or or or you know multiple people who influenced us as kids in the game in there. I kinda show us and teach us so. Who are some of the mentors as you had? When you're a kid that Kinda shows you how to play or you know showed you the ways of the game we of course my dad said he'd been planning on about six months before we got started? Are you going. I was like four or five whatever and but the one who told us play with Sam snead really not him but his book. Okay I I still have it. It's like A. It's like a magazine this Oh soft. Canada cardboard book. And it's maybe about the size of regular fool magazines saying we'd like we laid it down on a bench out there and Shelby Park and the four of the three rather than we go from page to page. Look we we have full shared brought it to show it to you whatever but is seen before and shows you how to start off with your grip and everything got pictures pictures and pick up a club in in hold it and say hey look and what is it. And that's like this like this and so we just tall auto sales like that but looking at a book in everything Looking at that book the other day pulled it out and Looking at it and I saw on front is a book to book so for so for one dollar one big book but I got another Ben Dan Hogan Book which is a small pockets as book and I read a lot about but now is now many good pictures in there some drawings and whatever but I read some of it in Whoa when found it and see what the price was only twenty five cents. So it's interesting because now the kids nowadays that I teach they all have cell phones. They'll have their parents have cell phones. And so I you know I think some of them don't even have the deaf taken the time time to watch tower players really slowdown in. NC like their opinions. You hear tour players doing things like Sam snead and Hogan did really write their own book about how they swing the club and things like that because all these players now have guys like us that teach behind him and then and their coaches are the ones right in the books. But I mean you're not seeing Dustin Johnson writing a book about how he plays the game or tigers. When that's done it here you know recently so I think the kids now a days could take a little less than from that in that you know you you had to grow up just looking at a picture on a book and trying to mimic it? Yeah now there's so much resources that every kid's hands like it's almost given to. Yeah it's a lot different we're back then did inherit in having cameras would film a golf club. Yeah a golf shot. I mean you know you could take just one picture and then I remember the came out what to call the graph chick cameron this was this was back in the sixties and they would take it would take three pictures in a row in as best you could get. You know I and it's just so much different than just an entirely different game right so what we're so when you were practicing with your friends. What were some some of the ways you guys kind of helped each other? Get better you playing games against each other where you're just playing awful lot. Does you even hit balls. The range much or is it just mostly playing there. Were very view driving ranges around bill me driving range the off harding road in about driving range in Nashville. So we we go over there as a park and hit the balls out you know and pick them up and that's about all it really was to in fact is when I started out on tour. Now this is in the fall of nineteen sixty four I we. I left my job in Baltimore Maryland. As a teaching pro affair had wife and two children two little girls dead town and we drove to Nashville from Baltimore to lease and stuff and my mother and Dad's house and then we drove from National Portland. Oregon takes five days of Dr Out Tara before interstate so you were driving a two lane road all the time on the two lane roads took you right into the middle of Airy Kinda town so you go real slow and as I wanted to get out to you on Saturday and I had to qualify again the terminal on a Monday so our stop along the road when I was a UH of golf course over to the side pull off and go over and try to late in the afternoon early in the morning and goes with Dr Tried to put in like about five five hundred miles a day and we would go into at go in. They're not going to talk to the pros and tell him I was going out to qualify. I WANNA know if it'd be alright if into a golf balls because they didn't have drive and I said yeah let me go alongside one of the fairways hit the balls down the fairway down ground. Pick them up. So I'm I'm at five five or six different pros on his trip in for the next thirty years. When I'd go down to Phoenix Scottsdale Palm Springs? It always be two or three of them. I mean you know. Hey maybe it goes on and you're just learning to play. Golf was just entirely different. And I would give anybody advice in my opinion in a guy say the same thing but I've just a long time is A. I think it's very important to play other sports. Besides golf that teaching you learn how to do all different things it teaches teaches you to become a competitor. You get you get you. Don't like to lose in. Nobody likes to lose and makes you more determined and you feel you. You know you win in sports and everything but it's it's really important to play more than just off in my opinion while they're sports that you play grown-up was supposed to be played over over the years. Now play just about every kind of sport from time I was a kid. I played football basketball baseball. Self Baugh all play tennis. So so what was the. What was it about golf? Then net that that became your sport that you wanted to pursue at a higher level where the one thing that I loved about. It always was that in other sports is seasons stopped is started a certain date is I stopped at a certain day. Goff went on all year round and all like that years. Oh you just keep on playing. I remember went into high school. I played a lot of football in grammar grammar school. But I went into high school and I play quarterback in Grammar School in the coach women to come out the football team and I said well I said that it sounds that sounds fun I thought about it but I'll I won't come out to probably going to be maybe the first October he said we are planning on as part of August. It's not say well. I got to golf tournaments that I WANNA play in. He should go after them and I said Yeah I want to play golf to his Hickory. Invitation with what's called Nashville Tennessee and city open which is a four round. Tournament is played here. Who was actually a big turn is played the last of August and he said well you got to come man you gotta practice? We needed to come out pressure coach. I'm not coming out in the next years. The same thing you know coming out. I don't WanNa Miss. He's two terms and I said oh I said someday I WANNA be a golfer but I don't really care that much about being a football player for the rest of my life. Now's back before they had like real helmets to it didn't we didn't have we didn't. We just had a piece of leather. That stuck on your head you know and hip pads sap heads are there. Were about now more than a piece of that. Would just flexible plastic lowthian. You know whatever but you guys is played and played hard. Yeah no and that's a great point to bring up because that's A. It's it's a constant debate with parents that I have and conversations I have is you know. When should they start to specialize in a support and when should they There are how long do they keep playing multiple sports. And I've always said that you know it. It's it's always good to play in multiples worse because if golf is just such a one directional game right. You're always swinging in one direction as a right hand Golfer and it can really hurt your body. long-term longterm. I'm a product of that having a hip surgery at twenty three But the the where I can't tell them is like once you get to a point where maybe you're fortunate enough to be good good at multiple sports. You're going to have to start looking at you. Know which one do you enjoy the most. Which one can you afford the time with? And that's kind of where I think kids now. It's incredible to watch especially within the girls game like you can have a thirteen year. Old Girl go play in the women's open. Yeah I mean because they how fast they develop and it's just absolutely incredible watching some of these teenagers. I have multiple kids that are swinging almost as fast as I am right now and they're out of high school yet and I'm sitting there going to get back to the Jim. These are jumping on that block with buddy I guess you know Oh man so what what you got done playing your high school career in in you went off and played for. What is now the University of Memphis What led you to play college golf instead of going to play professionally right out of high school well right out of high school? I wasn't a good enough player to actually excellent. Not many guys are coming right out of high school player to be planning to professional tour. You know and besides there's a lot of different things that lead you one direction and other other when you turn eighteen years old you have you had a responsibility back then to be and go into service that you'd be drafted in right so if you didn't go into college we're going to get drafted into service in about six months. She got a high school but I always wanted to go to school at Lsu or Houston they would number one and two ranked teams in the nick country and golf and so they would be better to go to LSU could because it was closer to Nashville and everything hang on. Never been to Louisiana. Never been the Texas either at that time. And so I go down to Lsu and play off off two days with the coach and the pro down there and whatever and they offered me a scholarship in back then you couldn't get a golf scholarship so you had. They'd give you some other county on a scholarship because she always told her yes she said you would let us guys have a golf scholarship back. Then you weren't GonNa throw them Eh and so. They gave me a basketball scholarship. When I hit played a Lotta basketball in high school and everything was a decent player and so Asandra scholarship in ready to go to Lsu and and three weeks before school starts a basketball coach called me up? And I didn't know him and I didn't know him from Adam in his name. His name is a raven horses last name Hair Raven horse and he it said you know I said I'm the basketball coach. LSU and you sound. The scholarship just became aware you basketball ability. And he said you're GONNA play basketball in Ghaffur Lsu. And I said no coach won't be a basketball player won't be a Golfer and I said I don't I don't WanNa play too smart. He says well you sound scholarship and I had had the right to say. Where do you come down you so if you come down here you're going to play both sports? So coach I'm not coming. He said well you better think about it and I said okay. Okay Gimme a time. So I called up the golf coach and told him what happened. He said let me let me talk to him. He owned open about a half hour later. He call back and says well that sorry so and so is determined. If you come here you're gonNA play basketball for Lsu and you play golf too and as he will coach Oh coming. Wow you know I said I don't want is too hard to do. Try to play both sports. And I've always said this what I want to be governed so here was three weeks. Four schools schools start at the scholarship on our start looking around and Mason Rudolph Food A very close friend of mine. He was gone. He was transferring down to Memphis from from. Ut Point because his mother was sick and and he you know he said. I'm going down there and a couple of days to you. See Somebody whatever it was. He said once you're down with me we'll go and talk to director and see where we can get worked out so we went down to got a scholarship. Worked out you know wind up going down here which that had not been in my plans the whole time you know it went down and I really enjoyed it down there? I went through a years and dropped out because I didn't feel liked but how different things were. Is The basketball team down. There coach was got called for some kind of illegal recruiting. So they put the whole. You put the Ho- Athletic Department on Probation for two years not allowed to play in tournaments. You could go over and you could play a match against the school but that was it say and saw was there for the first year. Freshmen couldn't play any sports back there. They've they've done that a couple of different times incoming freshmen. Say you need to learn to be away from home a being schooled in their blah blah blah. Whatever so you didn't and so it was just an entirely different situation down there so I played two years down the Indian? I just had a wanted to move. I wanted to go ahead and get my serviceman me so I decided I was going to drown got drafted and service wind up plan golfing service to yeah. I was GonNa ask you about that because how long how and thank you for serving onto but how. How long did you serve in the military and then in play on their team? We're on a play L.. Drafted drafted for twenty four months but during that time time they put up the Berlin Wall and everybody in their depending on how much time you had left to go on. Your duty is your extended. I got extended for two and and a half months so I served twenty six and a half months actually in the service and I was in Washington. DC Are you still got a trained killer in Warsi EH. I'll tell you what I say. Their story when I was when we went to F- Fort Knox Kentucky and sitting there. When you're going through all your everything to get into the service all kinds of questions and everything in this little sergeant and he's a young guy? He said the he was doing the paperwork for me. He said what do you want to do. While you're in the service and I said I'd like to get special services and play basketball and golf. His chair lamp and he says man you come in service and you won't be a Golfer who go make a train care. How do you know I said so? So what I wound up doing A. He told me he said well then apart job he said I'm not a really. They're familiar with it and he he later said I'm looking at all your records right here. He said you got at least two. You got three years of college you got to right. So it's kind of look and about four or five different things things. He says as a job right outside of Washington. DC at Fort Myers at Arlington National Cemetery. And he said you would feel into two very well. Look like to me for what you call the president's honor guard up there you had to go into training and everything and I said well what he said you. You work one day and you get off two days. I said that sounds pretty good. Yeah it wasn't really that way but so I went to advance after training for Jackson South Carolina and we had a few days left to go into training and they put up on the bulletin where everybody was going. There were two sheets up there and there was list of about one hundred and some odd names on the left side and it was they were going to go into career. We're looking at. Oh Man I just got married between basic training advanced training and and I'm looking down the list. Oh analyst Oh it down analysts here just in here where we're going. Oh sitting looked over one paper. There was one name to top private private Louis K. Hey Graham going to Fort Meyers Virginia. I'll write down over career man so I got up and went into into to honor guard training. There were twelve guys there and they're took two guys into honor guard and I was one of the two guys who took and I enjoyed it too. I really did. I wind up being in the party. The main job under guard is guarded to tomb right and then they do. The burying in the cemetery Arlington to national cemetery in each one of them has a casket. Berra's in honor and a firing part in the go with as Berry moved in but then we did a lot of parading and ceremony and different things like that. Whenever the president came went out of town we were there? When they came back into town we went to the airport met him? You let seems like you guys. I pretty good shape for the military service then to did got on a Bash Post Bash Company Basketball Team in the Post basketball team and oppose golf tournament and you played in all army. Turn all army team which we won the Inter Service Championship playing man. That's awesome so I. I enjoy the service a lot in OSCE see kids today in a and I think boy that boy there would be so much better his life would be better if he drafted into the service alert. A little something about himself and watching in out and have a job to do and just know what life is really about it teaches you. How did you feel like you're? You're you're training through the Military Terry help you formulate count that structure for yourself is that When in doubt about it you know you figure out what you would like to do the news? You know I've always been always shea. She dreams don't just have dream. Sit Back and talk about it. Go after your dreams be determined to get your gird draped Hubertus right otherwise. We'll stay dream. Is that of a reality. That's right actually. They didn't tell you what being in service to. They didn't have much of a place for me to practice it all to win golf course area where I was stationed and I had to go to another course to play in everything but I found me a practice right. Dan had where it the Pentagon it was right next to the river. Going into DC there and and goes right across the bridge and I noticed a few times that Dr Mon car and go down into Washington. There was a big space right off in this. where the big turnaround like a four leaf clover right off this small like type of interstate okay to really before interstates but I could see down here in the grass? Look good so one day. I pulled off and drove down there. Manna grass was just like a golf course. So few you days later I go over here and I'm hitting balls owner thing and then meet his car's going this way and cars going out in the middle of this thing get involved and the grass was terrific. Rick in this police officer pulled off. Pull the car right beside me there and got out and say what you doing. I said well I'm hitting golf. Balls should not place to hit golf balls ball out in the streets you. You're going to offer bad accident. And and he said he can't hit balls down near. I said I said I'm not going to hit a mountain. It actually. This is about seventy five eighty yards wide like three or four hundred yards long. I said GonNa hit them out there. He said Oh. Is that right and I see hits him so I hit a couple of hours unless you hit a driver so I had a few drivers. He said you're right. You're not gonNA hit him out there he got his Carlisle Orlando. Go down there and practice all the time how You know. That's funny I I I can honestly say. I've never heard of anybody having a practice inside of interstate. Interstate Lewis from your lock. They make him a lot tighter to. It'd be very far. It's funny because that kind of reminds me of my childhood a a little bit where I grew up. We had a small little like nine hole. Golf course attached to a retirement community in a Harley but fifteen rounds a day play early on that plays right so had the mon little nine hole track. I'd run around and play on and on the back of the property. They acquired like this just enough to put like four Matt's down behind the tree reline but then about forty yards across there was the row of Corn Crop and so my boss would have got like seven or eight eight crates. Full Golf Balls. They were donated in old beaters. And that was kind of a range ball scenario. And that's where you know I would hit balls a practice and had to your point. We didn't even have a picking car so I had to go out with Shag bag and Shag up my ball. So that was kind of like the motivation to keep it between the tree line and the cornfields If I hit it in the Cornfield. I'm walking through the cornerstone. Trying to find these golf balls and again that was like there's plenty of driving ranges around. It was just it was like nobody was ever there. So I had the whole place and myself you know and That's that's so funny that the cop Ah to the to the fire and he's like all right prove it through though we lived out nation as yes. Well we had a backyard is maybe Maybe thirty yards west forty yards wide. Maybe fifty yards from in the backyard back there and one day we were out there marching to get two younger brothers and bother twin. Her sister was out there. And she's laying in the sun so we decide we're going to fixes. It will chip in around out there in the backyard and we got there and we had a septic tank. It was always lake leaking along the left side. There knew it was bad. This is this is back in the early forties and so we designed a little course in the first hole was Kinda kind of lake who around the septic tank because it was always mushy and running and wit and everything but the whole was only like five feet on the other side and the whole the whole the distance of the hose. Maybe it was like going around putting Greens. Actually what it was. We went around with seven hours in the I was like like twenty yards wide. But you'd go out for fifteen yards and innuendo ride around the lake but if not get in there and you couldn't control you while you put it into the into the lake. which was a septic tank? Much Fun. We'd go around near thing. We we had six holes and we'd go around that thing fifty times a day in summertime that you know it's funny about that. Not only is the fact that you have the septic tank in China the imagination that you guys had to come up with a design CALICO own golf course and the creativity. I mean kids like that around here. Don't Oh have that China chance right now. Because there's there's two dozen golf courses within a stone's throw of each other and and all the other property in between is not big enough to do anything light that you're all living on postage stamps little houses so I admire that kind of creativity because I think that's something that the kids nowadays I think they spend too much time. I'm on the driving. Range is trying to beat balls in. I mean if we just plop them in the middle of a forest and said here. Get Your Golf Ball around here real fast and let's pretend make room Gulf horse. I mean I think that would do unbelievable things. Things were kids in this game right now. Oh I definitely definitely help does go learn to play the brakes and he'll because sloping sad heels and figure out how much when you hit a chip chip shot over here. What is going on over here and no perfect lies? No there were no perfect. That's for sure so So you get it through the army and then you start back into the professional circuit city and try and start playing on the pro tour and you make it to the PGA tour and you spent a good bit of time out there and it took a while to have some serious success so talk us through your. What was it like when you first got on onto onto the big stage in Yari kind of mentioned in the traveling portion you know taken five days to get to Oregon stopping off on the side of the road and practicing so you know what was that whole experience like well you know back? The most of the people drove in terms of your trump. They tried to have term. Is Setup where there's no more than like four five hundred miles from one to the next and hopefully a lot of them would only be a couple of two hundred hundred fifty or whatever is especially when you get in the state of Florida and places like that you know and and we started out but the first job and I went to play in was out in Portland Oregon like I said earlier in drove out there and it's kind of a funny story there I had kept very close track. I thought the PGA Asia tour. So I went out and got an qualifying tournament I germ in. Wasn't that difficult to get back in especially in the fall of the year because a lot of the players mayor's weren't playing a total purse of the term of fifty fifty thousand fifteen thousand dollars and but the hotel's run. You like eight nine ten dollars a night so I had had a guy friend of mine who was a grammar school football coach and he had called me when I was working the teaching pro in Baltimore after I got out service walked in teaching pro. FM in Maryland two and a half years and and he offered me a chance. PS Two would help me get on a tour. You know so started out and everything we hit it all figured out how much it cost you about cost you about two hundred two hundred fifty dollars a week to play the tour's what do you call him now not even couldn't touch it and that's one nine nine hotel now but Go out there and get a qualifying and play in a make it make it through. The qualifying makes the first cut. And so we're playing in the third round on Saturday. I'm going along the guy playing with their. He says well Louis Are we better pick it up a little bit. We're not make the cut and I said what do you mean Mexico. We made yesterday. He says there's another cut today. Oh my gosh I said. There's occurred on Saturday. I never knew this. I mean I had new the tour. Well thought you gotta be kidding. He said no we down seventy now they cut it down to fifty five. Oh my gosh. And he said you can only play pay fifty places. That's it so you better get your hustle so you you know so I didn't make the second could allow so goes on but that was talk. Talk to you a little bit. Something right also bad but when it was kind of funny I came from playing I I have been there back in two terms wall run by. PGA They members like right here. This club volunteered to come out for two weeks and work a couple of times in because the tour was owned by the PG right there was no such thing as a PGA Asia tour right so I go straight over to the PGA tour PGA trailer and go inside. If just missed the second cut and I you know I introduced myself and said yeah we know we are. We know issue. I tell them all the new guys just coming out and we watched you and I said well this problem I said. How can you make on a Saturday? I said here I said I didn't know about here. I am I I have my wife and two children. I had to wait till five o'clock with a made it or missed. You just barely missed. It said it's going to be six o'clock before I leave here. I've got to drive over three hundred miles to the next tournament in. I'm going to have to spend the night here in a hotel. Get up early in the morning and try to get over to the next tournament ornament in time to play a few holes on the course right over there in data gotta get into Monday qualifying and attorney so and they said well. That's just the way that it's always been. I said okay was always been a nod is wrong is totally wrong. It shouldn't have a second cut right if you make the cut because those guys is it beat now heads advantage me. I should have the advantage on them right. They shouldn't have the edge on me in one of the guy says you know I've said this river. This is about to a fifth time. I've been out here to work. Determined said it's ridiculous that you missed the second. Cut The guys that you beat which was like seventy five eighty players feel whatever it was getting advantage. They got the advantage on you. You know and they still sitting there talking. They said they said we. We're going to get together and write a letter and I said would you sand on the letter and I said sure might kick mouth too cautious ridiculous. Yeah so but they've just sending it to the PGA not know PJ disappeared GSA. In about six months later they changed the thing. Wow but I went on up to Seattle to qualify for the next term out there and play like man hose ozone recourse and went out the next day. It was pretty easy to get into qualified people that far up there you know there are the country near the thing so God with no Oh problems and and I missed the cut in my first three terms played in in everything I need to call. It was in Las Vegas and I came in a plate in a tree put into the last hole. A memory costs about one hundred and fifty dollars three put it last and I came back to the hotel my wife and to Qiaotou hotel in told her what a shot and everything in US three hole in. I said I've never heard of the last hold in term in my life in the town to win a check out three-putt the last twenty five dollars paid for all over hotel uh-huh. Oh man I mean that's crazy that You know the that they would have. I didn't I didn't even know about the second cut on Saturdays. I mean this is obviously showing my youth. Talk a little bit and then I could not imagine the toll would be driving your family around to trying to compete and having two young girls and your wife and you're China accommodate all that and I mean how did you juggle the family life with your your torchlight. How'd that we we're all living together in Baltimore and I was working as a teaching pro in Baltimore and I go to work at eight o'clock in the morning? You come home to six thirty seven o'clock at night you know and so when I got an opt to try to tour. Today we'll all tickled to death. They were anxious to to move back to come to Tennessee. They're never lived. You've been down here on a couple of occasions in you know and everything saying so. Then you said down you figured out your expenses how much you could afford spin I can tell you joke about that. Does tale for their head spin figured it out that well. When I like for instance I went to Memphis Open? There is a Holiday Inn was in Memphis and it was nine dollars dollars a night so I figured out different things you know. How much is spin for a hotel and how much there? In the first time I went to Palm Springs drove around for probably about three or four hours hours trying to find a hotel. I could afford to stay in you know and do that but I'll tell you so we manage you know we went to cafeterias everywhere you take. You could take the two little girls they were. They were three and four years old. No no there were younger than that. My youngest one would have been about twenty months old and oldest one was year old and a year and a half older and hurt so we we could go into a cafeteria and we could all four of us could eat for like four dollars instead he had kept track money. You paid your candy like twenty dollars a day. No and nobody really paid much of an account of if you won whatever percents as long as a percentage whatever it would just wasn't enough money To do that and you know and everything and but it was my thing is mafia tournament. I finished eleventh in term one hundred dollars and then And that was that was in California's simply what takes mount something. Whatever and then we have one more tournament to go out there for seven Evan terms and then you had a week's break to go to cal to go to Florida you drove? Everybody had to drive all the way back in the draft straight to Florida and everything so actually I went out to us. A failed to qualify to get into the last term. It was in in San Francisco so good. They gave me a time to drive. All the way back to Nashville readjust everything and then have another week at practicing and go to floor and do that but you've traveled a lot but I figured out where she experiences in order to be able to make it for your ahead. Twelve thousand dollars for a whole ear and that I've knew how much I could spin. And how much couldn't and I knew that. When I got up in east he was going to be more expensive right? It was the first first time we went up into play. We go up in. It would go to Omaha play in determining and figure what really was now but we go up here and they hit all told us to go to this Ramadi and up there because Ramadi and holiday ends a a Howard Johnson that was about it hotels and if you WANNA stay in a hotel motel wants hotel you had to go downtown. which a bad and then you had a long drought traffic and everything and getting out? But I go into this Ramada go into this and Howard. Johnson was and there were a bunch of kids in Putin. Malo girls walked into the lobby with him wife sitting in the car. Because you didn't have reservations an advanced or anything you go in there and instead wanted to get a room. Whatever and I wanted to prices room in the price fries room was sixteen dollars and so I said you know I'm here? I figured get out. I can't pay more than fourteen fifty night and I said well it's just a dollar and a half a night. I said. Yeah we're going to be here for seven might or not in Tampa came walking in just came checked in steptoe Sarah Daughters and everything and they kept saying Danny. We wanted to go swimming women. They were seeing the kids and so people left and I went over against hardened targets. She's I'm sorry sixteen dollars and and she's a dollar and a half more whatnot kept saying but the dollar and a half. I just can't do that. I'm going to have to go someplace else. And somebody else came in and walked walked off again standing there with my little girls and and they were wanting to go. Come day we won't go into people walked out and walked back over and she looked the late. This it looked at me so I'll pay the dollar and a half restaurant. It's funny how life does she fade the dollar house a good deal. So I you gotta say the dollar and half a night and everything but then you get up there in the east and you try and your best but it got expensive offensive up there and most so if you want your money but I was trying to make enough money that I could back myself. I only had a two year contract to play a and and you had to. You had to really watch what you were doing. and very few people fluid all right wasn't that popular at the time and it's not many options at that point point that's right so what So talk to us about the lead up to that little stretch you had in the mid seventies he had won the US Open. And then you had three Ryder Cup appearances. What changed in your game? Maybe that allows you to all of a sudden see some of that success and really take off. Well it to be honest it took a long time to get used to playing deter. You know the hardest thing about Jordan and playing their plan. Seventy two holes. Every week I had played played in like maybe in my entire life I had played in about four. Seventy two zero term. Most of them would be thirty. Six or eighteen holes fit for the the Tennessean City Open. Told you about seventy two seventy two tournament. There wasn't a state of Tennessee at that time and and when I was I was working as a teaching pro at clubs up there I wanted to player of the year in the PGA Langa PG and the player of the year in numerous numbers. Different too much too. But they had one seventy two term it up there and the whole deal so you go out there and I can remember that. I started playing a tournament at into thirty six holes Friday Friday. I was ready for the tournament to be over and it was it took. It was hard much harder than you thought it would be. Continue on you know and plan in and it took a while well in. You're playing golf courses a lot of times you go in. You wouldn't even get to play the golf course before you started determine because qualify one course and then I had to qualify on the course and the next day it rained or whatever and of course is closed down then they had the Appro Emma wisdom which you were never in that in that it took it took two or three years where you would getting into that and so you end up in numerous term. Never seen the golf abortion your life. Wow so it was hard it was you know wasn't a lot of money out there in it. That was always very difficult. You know getting used and to the grand every week every week every week. Now I mean you're right I mean I. It's an endurance test to go four rounds in a row especially playing at that level. You with the competition and because not only is wearing on you physically swearing on you mentally to me. I can only imagine the burnout. Well you just think about okay. Here's here's the schedule schedule. You Finish this tournament you drive all day Monday to get to the next term you go out to play a practice round getting to play balls in in and if you're in Appro in the next day in the pro-am in your required to play if they put your name up here you can see I don't WanNa play. I'm tired of this week. You're required to play you. Drop out you drop out of the terminal so so you play you play. You played played in the qualifying. Whatever on Monday playing around on Tuesday wisden you placed into two holes in the term and then you get back into car and you drive all day who make cut? You're automatically in the next term so you you drive all day if you're not. You're driving on a Friday night or Saturday. Whatever trying to get over there and everything but it's a tough situation you gotta you gotTa love to play Golf? There's no question about it you go absolutely you've got to be very determined that you're GonNa make it and you know and that's probably the part that still hasn't changed much for the tour player. Is that consistent schedule. I mean that's why you see someone like tiger. You know hit a very has a very limited schedule focused on the majors. You're starting to see some of the younger guns. Like Rory and Brooks you know sounded ended the same thing and meanwhile the guys that aren't your you know quote unquote top fifty in the world. Whatever they're having to do that grind that you're about to keep the card because the money in in you gotTa do it at least twenty six times a year? It's only six weeks a year and we play in half your time travel around trying to play as much golf as you can. Oh wait for a break. They wanted into twenty six days a year back. Then you played. I played between thirty two and thirty five tournaments every year home. I maintenace there would like we had like forty tournaments on the schedule. Something like that maybe a little more near because a lot of times we started the west coast with determine we're start like the last day of December And then we would. It would sit solid all week. said that have one week off to drive to get back to the East Coast Post and everything and then the term. It's scheduled went on until right after thanksgiving. Wow so you're talking about right on up to December. Yeah yeah in a and went through the whole deal and it was it was a long hard grind. Now we laugh laugh town when they say guy says he's getting entire. This is the third week in a row. I remember my girls are still going to schools. They'd get out. They traveled all the way through and then they had their best friends in their lifetime with kids. Met on a tour and it's been five six years out their own tour in a all kids came out every summer that gives soon school was we will leave home. The last week in May when the kids got out of school and we wouldn't come back till the last week of August travel all we all summer long and play every week guys Nelson worn out played three terms as play fifteen eighteen terms in a row without him taking a week off or anything. We're getting soft left. Generations are getting solved so if you wanted to make a living and and being near you had to do it and you'd be surprised you learn an awful lot lot when you get onto tour you see a lot of good players. I can remember a growing up at shelby park out. There were two sand traps on a whole course on a regular course I hold in thirteen to and and we'll take it back to Tucson on the first hole in one on the thirteenth. hold out out there. And there was no place to practice out of Sanchez and we used to go over there early in the morning or late in the afternoon. In hit. Some balls out of those Sandra when you weren't supposed to be. It not stopping with practice of their little bit. But when I got out on a tour I was a poor San player. I made sure I stayed out of the Sandwich I remember. I was in a bunk in Brooklyn a hidden out of the bunker out in Napa California. And if one of the young guys named Phil Rogers who had met in planning and national junior term in California l. -fornia and he's sitting there on a bank watching me hit bunker shots and he said he said who ever taught you how to play bunker shot and I I said I told myself I want I can tell And let me show you so you got in there. He's hitting a few shots and tell me what I was doing. Wrong wrongness in the and it. It really helped me. I practiced hard on it and became a good bunker player. Yeah so you see the guys doing things you see how they stand how to do this. Here's how to do that. And and try to improve your game you know. They're a good way to do players and everything. So you just keep working on your game key working on your game till you get it better absolutely so so give us a story of the nineteen seventy five years open at Medinah how I mean there was you WanNa in the playoff. I mean How that whole wheat takes eight for you and give you know all the way down to the emotions well? The week started off. It was raining. it it was coming down the year before I had I had played my first opened up late in was nineteen sixty three in sixty four sixty five sixty six sixty seven sixty. I missed qualifying. A sixty eight and sixty nine and got back in and I had troubles elbows with their grains agrees where exceptionally fast the Greens were hardest rocks. And and there are a lot of different things that goes into winning deter determining. I'll tell you started started into when you start on your first time guy out there. I got last off in. Ah Off in the qual- in the first two rounds every year I was the last. Oh for the first five years I've played and you cadets they put in there and our you know I'd make the cuts and whatever and Missing a Mexican. I played in never miss a card anymore. And and and so you're out there and you're you're playing in there and your last off when you go out last terminal like there you got two hundred hundred sixty five players playing and they all go off the first tee on regulatory Google off for ten t I t so right now is bad. But if you're lashed off off their say in the first round determine and you go out to one hundred sixty players but in this in determined by the time you Fisher Day the Greens are so chopped up because you had every player here to you and I mean the Greens were softer in a grassroots longer. You guys who complain that the spying Martius spying March cast shadows and it was green relate. Finishing you'd get down and landed Papun you could see shadows despite marsh casting a shadow on green. That's how they were. You know back tap down spike marks like they do now and everything everything there and so I went through that because then the next day you would be in the middle of the field because she instead of being lashed again and you wouldn't be first off you'd be in the middle of the field you know when they switch it around and but if you went off last off on Friday you've you've had two days of one hundred sixty players ahead of you you know and boy. Those green was so tough to put at the end of my fifth year to play in the terminus our win in the US issues office. And I said when I sell them apparent it was the start of the fifth year and I said you know I don't understand I said I've seen gas come out here. They were friends of mine have known them for college and this and that and they got good starting tounge. I said I've been out here. I've made to cook and I sat out here lashed off in one around every year. I've been out here in the gas in this has ed doesn't sound possible. Ananta bitchy got records of what happened. penins things and everything and he said yes we do and he says you're back in office and he said I'll tell you what you go out into the putting green green put in thirty minutes. I'll be out there and I'll find out exactly what you're starting tange. Were about twenty minutes. He came out there and he said you're absolutely right. You've had last often wonder the determines every year. You've been out here in totally wrong. I don't know why the next year I got a decent starring. Tom Finished in the top. Fifteen we next year. I finished taff third next year. I won the term and saw him and he said boy what a difference. AH CHANCE AND I. It's funny because the first camp up on that was a few years back and it was actually at the. US Open At oakmont I think it was where the weather screwed everything up a little bit for Thursday Friday rounds and it was like like seventy or eighty percent of of the guys that made the cut went off Thursday morning Thursday morning Friday afternoon pairing not the other way around and that's a very overlooked perspective from a lot of Amherst. They don't really think about that. Side of things is like your draw when you go into some of these events can absolutely affect your ability to school. Were and how well you can perform and especially back in that day when you say you were wearing one. It's metal spikes manicured the they are now and yeah it was a different world. You know but I'll tell you another thing de that helped me get going in the. US Open the major terminus was it. I was playing a practice round someplace. Jack Nicklaus we just ran into on a on a green. We're getting ready ready to go out on Tuesday afternoon. Played and he was talking about. 'cause we were a couple of weeks were couple of weeks before the. US Open was coming up and he was talking talking about the ad and he was asking me question asking him questions and and he said he said that you know when I was. He's played in his first. Yes assuming he was like about sixteen seventeen eighteen. I don't know what it was. And so he didn't have to service while I'm not sure but he didn't have to go to service in always complained about that. Yeah I've told them about their so. He's said my teaching pro thought. My Dad's teaching pro and Ah told me that that to be sure when you play in terms like the US Open the hard courses play Every whole to make par play for power. Because if you make a par on hope you're gonNA beat morgue as on that whole than you beat you because they're going to be more bogus on a whole heart holes in the Argo and be make birdies. So you're basically advancing in the termine and I thought that's a good idea. Yeah so this was a couple of weeks before like I say I went to wing foot and I finished taffer third there and asked what up. That's how I played I teed up on played for par because a member next was telling me he said 'cause you make some birdies here near you could par fast. You know different now when you get up to par five. You're pitching that Toco but when you play the shot safely other than that and I went around in a play you know ahead was close to due to win and determine and then the next year or go out in the next year was an ideal situation for me. It had rained on money so softened the Greens and and a lot of grass complained to grains were to softness and they've always been a low ball hitter so it was kind of age for me and that we had rain during the week Just blew in and out all week long and everything and we're playing it Madonna into the narrow kind of narrow driving awkward Lada Tree Land fairways. I grew up Chevy Park Man. You had to go single foul down so most fair with all the trees at the especially book bag which now the fronts. I used to be the back set and I like to call off the bed. You know played play it in everything. In three over par score was shot for the first time you to hold shoddy audie important eighteen hole playoff to win by two shots so it was him very. Don't the first year so played in was was in. That's out of Boston. Can't think the name of course now is one thousand nine hundred sixty three and this Jews users Jews boroughs are Palmer in Jackie Cooper Tad for the term. They had eighteen hole. Playoff tafs determine the winning score was ah non over-par determine but I played in the thing was my first time experience to go play in those courses shots now had been player of the year in Mill Atlantic section and one term snus in there and I go the plan that thing and it was drizzling rain the grass was like about six inches high. Replace you go out and one in relooked shortcut Bam right into the grass and it was and it was wet and damp all week long there and everything and and and the big talk of determined was that Jews boroughs was was up there leading termine in everything you wanted to tie. Jews brought one it in eighteen hole playoff against Palmer. Jackie Cuban and he was using a sand iron to get out of the deep rough. Nobody had heard of it. They'd always use an Anani- earn a pitching wedge around the Greens to get out and in. And I had never heard of then. I went back to a job where I was working Baltimore. And I said I've got to give me a sander and I got to learn how to chop it out of this deep rough and I and I would tell the greenkeeper told him over one fairway. I want you to spot fought over. There was out of everybody's way later grew up between six eight inches high. And leave it to you all the time for me. And I'd say new getting their grass my sander learn how to pitch them out of that stuff. Has Everything but you know you. You taught yourself different things. One thing that I did and now they're all like to stand. There used to be have a rounded so on the first leading edge was very rounded And I saw some and I said Edfu with different clothes myself. Oh Tom in shave the back of him. So you can see the down heart and now all of these clubs like a Harry Taylor who resents his own club. Harry Komo which I mean. This was twenty some odd years twenty. Five years ago he looked mason. What if you just got back your wage on the bottom edge of it and I said I figured out that when I get on real hard baked fairway or lower around green that bounces so much? It's hard to play his shot. But if you you can still have bouncier but if you shape instead of having just come straight down you taking you cut it out of angle on the back underneath a sword slad zone air instead of bouncing off of there and about a year later. I'll look to one of Harry's beheaded underneath every one of them got it now. Yeah also made the front edge leading edge. I took the which took a thing in a sharp ended up. SHARPS who had cut through that grass. Yeah right I showed. It was legal. Oh Wow so you get in that deep grass just like you had a sickle in your hand cut right through it now. They're all like they're they're basically sharp. Nah I mean that's a a I'm this to me. I'm just kidding because I think it's so cool. How your problem your problem solving skills Yo really developed out to your as a player right go out? On tour narrowly familiar to bunkers. Guess realized guy go dig it out and you figure out how to hit bunker shots get some help get better go out play another event. Find some rough that you've never seen before and then you find the tool and then from there you manipulate the tool to your benefit. I mean that kind of creativity ativity in ingenuity is you know. It's what kind of set pays for where we are now in the technology that we're seeing now technology is changing like crazy But before we start talking about word Games was and whereas going out. We'll talk about your tour. We can contact about that stuff. Is your chance to play him Three Ryder Cups. What was it like teeing it up represent the US and playing in the Ryder Cup? In which case you guys won all three right. Yes got the I mean we should have. You'd be the captain captain for Ryder Cup now. Apparently because you're a good luck charm. Well if you learn check the wreckers hardly any players who didn't win the PGA championship become become captains are of the router cup teams. Okay because that's owned by the PGA not by the PGA tour. Ah In if you've if you've won the PGA then you usually always a couple of guys haven't been invited to be or if they have to my knowledge they hadn't been but if they have been they turned it down whatever but you if you WANNA PGA. I feel like I would have been invited to be when you know so as a different story but my first team we we played at Muirfield Scotland. And of course AH porn. Everybody knew everybody you know it was it was very enjoy. You like all the guys and things but first match their play. Chichi Rodriguez is was my partner and we played at that time. Tony Jacklin over there. Tony Jacklin was the Rockstar. Played with him over here. A few towns in new in pretty good and and guy named Peter who's to house who had never lost a match in the things and and Peter Teams over there and and he the Peter became now. You may know the name there and Peter is not real good health now but we played a match there. We're going along on your bed to fear over you what it was. I had a good drive out to and I hit a four iron about a foot from the hole and we walk up onto the green here and there was a lot of because Tony Jacklin he was a rockstar a man. They're all out there for Tony. All over I mean everywhere everywhere around Greenwood come up on the green and there was. I don't know there's three or four or five thousand people around green looked like and everything they hit a few stands answer and it was totally quiet. They Tony and Peter they were like thirty forty yard forty forty feet away from the whole whatever man. What's up here for a gimmick and it was one person going one person? Tony Louis your wife is in the crowd. I didn't. I said you know Tony. I know because you weren't us. And she didn't come ashes going shopping. She wanted but there was one person on the sound like like a lady who it was but they didn't like the fact that I had a good shot in there but it was fun and we came down to the last hole. We're we're all tad come into the last hole and in this was was a alternate-shot we hit hit title shot and back and forth what it was and and so we play on number eighteen. I hit drove off eighteen and drove it in the fairway. Are we out here. And Chichi hit. Don't agree and I had maybe a thirty five or forty foot and there was a lip. Pin was over on the right sat on a little. He'll like and Tony Peters head bald on green there to their own and they they put it up and tap capterra made their own hole. And so I don't know Chichi hit the PUTT hit fighting knocked up on the hill they got slipped slipped on by about four and a half feet so I had a four and a half foot or to tie the match. And I'll be honest. I start my talk talk to myself a little bit there. Don't you know just like plan. Anyplace else knocked to put in air. Thank thank and it came out there. Tony says where you're sweating. I said No. You may have seen the picture where Nicholas gave Tony. When they tied imagine in in Sam snead had a fit? Yeah he was a captain you know he said he he could have missed that. Put so easy you know and you gave it to gain Mataya and everything it but You know guys play and it is really fun very job. It is enjoyable when you win. Oh yeah well I mean and they get a chance to play. The three alone is a unique experience that most players don't even get the chance to do. And what what would you say that I mean. Obviously that you just had it was a great moment therefore we had a little bit of self recognition of all right. Here's where I'm at. I just gotTa do it like I do it every single time. Nothing's different still photo. That have made thousands of times. Yeah how did playing multiple Ryder Cups. What would you say was the biggest difference for you from the first one played in to the third one? Well you just more aware you'd you'd been through it whatever and and they did the same thing to me. I only played in two matches with the Gaza. Come in for the first hand and back then the captain's didn't play them that much because that is coming back from playing sit and they complain if they're gonNA play one match it was it made another played more and more so I play in two matches and in the next one was played at Laurel Valley Palmer was a captain. Palmer wasn't on a team that here. He was on team the year before and and I played in played four. Matches era played three team matches and and individual match and it was. It was a lot more relaxing. Used a you knew where everything was going on. You know what I mean. You knew the guys better and and almost most of the players were the same guys but on the into one or two or three might get in different whatever and but it was. Ah I played that course before too so I knew knew a little bit. They'd been there for a few outings over the years and in the situation was very good and we we wanted to match his pretty easy. I one three three match one in three matches in lost one and then we went to back to a royal infamous sane with fast last one there and I played in a not made people that cut down on how many matches we played over there that year. Trying to get to get teams more even in everything costs Americans were winning a little bit too easy and they decided to let Let British select four players rather than just taken by United States. Steel used to they just changed over. We backed in and the first twelve guys on the list. There was yeah. There wasn't any one in his players who didn't play the really good but they're playing now they bring them in. You know when do but to change EH changed a number of years ago the and couple. Yeah and but we played over there and it it was it was fun it was enjoyable. There I remember that We had a dinner. I'll tell you a story. We had a dinner and I've laughed about. This forever is at dinner to had all kinds of different people in the other members. I'm not sure who exactly where they were connected with the British. PG and whatever and I'm sitting next exit this one very Scottish guy and and cost players are all spread out and my wife was way over there. And I was way over here and we separated all up up and they were talking about something in and They were talking about what a and I said some about well. You know I'm I'm a I'm American. All the way through guys sitting sad me says in not real not lionize language. He said you're not American all the way. Hey He says you're a Scott and I said well no really Irish. He said there's never been a gram. Never been in the history of the world come. I'm from Ireland Europe. Scott you came from Scotland like that and then I said well and he said here will is. I'll show you tomorrow where you're from Tom. And he didn't use Ed Nice. So the next day I come here from playing to the crowd there and so marriage out pulls almost attorney. Look this this this. And he's got this big book about sides of a big thick dictionary. Oh my Gosh says come over here beside the clubhouse I'll show you away from laudi goals and he and he go there and he's got he opens this up in everything he says. Read it right here on the grounds grams. Luca got it read it and I started looking at it down here and he says right down to bottom he says read this here at the bottom. He says he says the grounds the grounds rounds. All came from Scotland thing in had drawing there and everything he says and he said the grams migrated to the United States is a majority of them when were night writers nightrider. That's what it said in night. Right is a gram where night writers in I did you read down to a night. He says that's right laude. He said you. Understanding of a bunch of gangsters. I started laughing and he said that you see where you're from us. Yeah I guess I am. He said no guests about it brought the book on. He was hot. I was I always used. It was an old man hears about my age. Well I can imagine that that'd be has this the whole areas so I reached out to the social media platforms to see To ask questions from some of my listeners to see what they would wanna hear from from you so if you don't mind I'm GONNA pose a couple of questions that were thrown at me. That people want to hear from you. Sure and so I'm going to pick up a couple more here in a second. So one of the ones that they are asking was now what you could pick one golf shot to go back and Redo it might be that one that you you had that three wiggle for your first check on the tour Lobi one shot. If you have back you would do over again Our do over again. I've thought about just for about one hundred years now I've finished second in the US Open As southern heels. I'll tell you the story about this and in the terminology just playing along so-so and bad right in the middle of the field and I've started off on Sunday in a bogus. I Two hose right off the bat and I go along I hit degrees. Anybody could make any putts our par- Ten and eleven and no number twelve. I hit a driver. Four hundred about twenty feet from holding made it for Birdie and own number thirteen's along. I hit a drive on his four three. We don't agree on a par Fab but have planned his departure forward and made a hole to play football next hit a two iron into the par-three and made about twenty footer. For birdie there and then I had to drive down the Fairway at eight hundred about twelve feet and made it for Birdie there and then on Sixteen now sixteen and I drove into the rough par-five and it was a bad law. Took my sandown. Just shopped at twenty feet out into the fairway and hit four and long for a win was helping a little bit. Hit it in their best six feet from homemade for another birdie and so now moving up to board Fasht ashed and come to sixteen come to seventeen and it's a short hole and I had part of the other days. It's got a a trees on the left side and creek down crossing in front of the green in slicing coming on out along the fairway and I decided I'm going to hit my driver here today. On if I if I can burn these last two holes then who knows because back then. You couldn't really tell what was going on. They didn't have all all these school boards and everything but I just I knew I was coming up fast and so I hit my hit. My driver off the tee there and pulled it a little. But I'd hit the to iron off the tee the other hit driver and because I wanted to get a little wage into the green and I hit this tree. Hit to treat him out way out there. And he kicked backwards into rough and back into the woods in the spectators stick with a lot of spectators have been back in a was laying on the ground just like almost like it didn't have any grass. It was bare bare dirt which was good Because I had to stay low coming out of the trees and I had to get across a creek ovarian I I had about one hundred and seventy five yard shot and so I got in and figuring out what now hit take his three iron just kind of bang it hard keyboard down low and got a clear creek if I can land right between those two trips up. Their own is space of about five yards wag. Something land right there because if I land on it real hot on the green it was gonna go right on over so I had to kill it in that grass figured out and if I could get hit their grass jump onto the green on the first bounce. I mean I'm figuring out what to to do. This idea came out in it. Hooked about twenty yards out of the trees come alien right between the trapped when jumped on the green and took off the flag enrolled up back there but before I hit the shot before I even hit the shot I was only addressed it. Agai walks out on the green in these going because the real hot in the been grass Greens are looking turning brown. He comes down he walks. Hose play and sprays a whole green with just water heavy spray in the water dowsing so I stood there in so he walks off and I hit the shot hits the jumps onto the green takes off running back there. Sure it's about seventy feet back to the flag so I'm like that in it. Rose back there and he comes up about six feet short. Wow so I came walking out and I said a democracy. I said if that guy hadn't spray degreen down might be in the cook already. Thought it and I said it was is going. I said road think how much slower green was enrolled all the way back to your calls you jumped on the green about ten feet on the green and it took off so I walk up there. And there's the big stands on the right side over here neighbor field over here one thing on this side of the creek and nearby and walk on the green and some guy in the crowd yells out loud. You got robbed Fed guy been spraying at green down. Just at that time you'd be in the Cup or for Gimme anyway. I hollered back already figured that out in the craft started laughing and applauding and go up. There it's going to break just little and the three Korea inside right put and and so I got up there and I said degrees in I hit to put in. I didn't hit it quite hard enough because Calcio was yeah and it turned in Missa hold on the low side and it and it went by the whole maybe three inches was about all well like to hit them with the speed would go by about a foot or what are no more than that on a four foot or you know whatever their and it missed the cup and it just Kinda nip the age of the and it didn't go in eighteenth. I hit a good drive down to bomb. DROP OFF BY CREEK. Good drive down there and hit a five about twenty five feet behind the flag and ahead in a hit the puck and the ball decried we had about seven footer break. As soon as they hit and they went I liked it. I thought Oh a play to break. They've seen this before in history breaking cover. Sydney here came breaking in just like admist about an inch on right right hand and talk about two inches right over here outta bad theater. If Fed PUTT goes in wind up losing lose him but one shot if I make the put down there if they hand spray dead green which I believe what made to put I just made a Birdie four the last I five holes in your own fire at them and I said I shot thirty one on and hose. I would've shot twenty nine just like that. The back nine and one that is straight out if a make that one there then taff with the term I've told you. Why did he have to come out right? Then it's great at greenough daughter. Megan Kelly imagine how many hunting memories I bring. That's I remember a lot of shots but but I remember that and better than anything. What would What's been so as far as like teaching golf right? That's you spend a little time as a teacher perform while you're trying to play and I teach for a living so my curiosity and so's one of the questions that was poses outside of the technology. Right what is teaching Golfer changed a whole lot or is it really been kind of the same stuff. We just have better ways to measure it. Bring them Mike back deal either. Well I think wanted to. It's the same game but teaching has changed a little bit but not all them much. You know I've always said one of the most important in seemed like the simplest thing to do would be get the correct grip Get to grip on there. If you don't have have a good grip you got a problem. She got make up with and there are some players. Pump great players with bad grips. But if you get yourself a good gripped at the very start that's only part of the view that touches the club or your hands so you get your hands on there right in it age. Big Time no question about it you know and the people people who I see the guys. They hit the ball so far now I saw a young girl at the other day. She couldn't be more than fifteen years old. Wow how she was swinging swinging so hard and she could hit it a mile and in. It's just so much different now. Talked to hold back twenty percent dant right to when you swan hold back about twenty percent. Twenty percent is a lot you know in in in you play along time ham and it's hard to twenty percent swing much harder you know and everything but the club head. Speed designed clubs made a difference in everything Shaves and the whole deal setup to swing better in its its bonus basically the same game aimed the most. Get yourself your body position. Address of the ball people get their fouled up to handwritten hands club may be good but to get two hands. Too Far forward hand too far back there stand two straight up have been over too much awaits on their toes and you know the simple athletics and and and today's though you don't see that often because they see pictures watch guard dramas on television all of Asian man. It wouldn't even when I was a little kid didn't even have television. You know and and you see somebody else. Play this good and you can start copying happy and maintain watch what they're doing and everything but basically the game the good players with two good swing. Sam snead it back playing in the thirties and forties and fifties and being Hogan those guys and they had still have the same swings. They had the good players had swings very very very similar to what today. Some of them today. Now jump in the air which I don't I don't really agree with that. Maybe if you start off as a kid but if you start off at the eighteen or nineteen years old twenty years old to play off now. I don't know how you go out there and do that. You know it's a young kids way of generating power. Yes yes way for the little guys to maximize some club has be when you only way like sixty pounds you know what when you when you were coming down the stretch you had six wins on tour. Had Three playoff wins. What did you talk about how? What was the mental? Talk that you had to calm yourself herself. And into trust in what you you know your process to to close the deal and win win and those kind of herring situations where you're going toe to toe where the I playoffs. That I handle lost Hartford Open played Or by the name of J C snead in George Archer the the three of his tab for the German at the Hartford we go out to the fifteen toe back then. They didn't didn't have television. So we go out to fifteen so they're play fifteen sixteen seventeen. MTA CO two. You know so it's like it is now and so we get to the tea and I can feel myself. I'm a little bit uncomfortable feeling and I said just calm down drive rather ball in the fairway put the ball in the fairway. Put The ball on the green in sailed down in so I drove it down the fairway. We're all down the fairway and you hit the ball into the green and away all hit the green and I had maybe JC maybe we're both oh it all hit like seven hundred some to the green and I had a twenty five foot or and he had a thirty footer and in George Archer had like twenty footer. One like that and because the green was shaped off to the both sides green was big. Drop off in deep bunkers. You didn't want any part of that because you went down in there. You're going to have a hard time and so I got on the green I remember and in I was just talking to myself. Whatever and I said just relaxed rollerball up there gets make Birdie on this next hole so? JC Put Matt up tapped in. Miss Georgia got up pretty knocked it in well. In one way it's supposed to be right. Knocked the end all right Tim. You don't you don't play care for when you get into when you play on if you get in there and you play hard Estrada Birdie every hole right off the bat and so that taught me a lot right there to get going. The next playoff I was young was over. Her in. There was a five way playoff. Oh my Gosh we've got got up on the T.. Three of the five guys bogeyed. The first hole drove drove in three. We went out to Oregon fifteen and drove into the trees and they made bogey hayler heels. Good friend of mine here now we hit it to varying. Both you have to green and we parred to hold in Bogo drop down now so we knew we go to second. We play in his along. Part three with across is it lake. We both make Parsh- and we go to sixteen seventeen is makeable birdie hole and I hit a drive out on on top. He'll they're like. I sat in inhale. Hit his tee ball and you can't slipped a little bit on the heat away on a toe in to the right with a hook and it clipped lipped tree. Real solid kicked right across the fairway win the lake. Oh no in and the Lakers right there where hit the tree was maybe fifty yards away. One net fireworks went right into the lake so he dropped down hit. A three wood up shorter the green headed come over and I hit it into the center of the green but I had pulled in more than one but it was a deep bunkers so I was staying away from the bunker deep tramps over. It looked like he was gonNA make a bogey for sure see and whatever may make a double bogey and so he had headed down near the trap he pitched it over about five feet from the hole so we had a five footer for bogey. I had I probably fifty footer. Jon Knew it's impossible three put and so but somehow made it made fifty footer and I said see Louis you learn something going trying to make that I put over well. I think that's a great advice. I mean the when you get into the playoff or the heads up situation coming down the stretch. It's it's almost kind of like when you watch football games like that FLASH FOURTH QUARTER LAST THREE MINUTES IN. They're planning to have defense. And all of a sudden with I three minutes left at defense pulls off or playing like twenty yards sets and they have all all this room to give give give and then all of a sudden they lose the game somehow right and you're like you can change your strategy because you're afraid of the big mistake aggressive and and and you know to your point about What you learn from that? I play off to the to the second one about how you learn how to be more aggressive. I've I've had multiple juniors that have have had great first round tough seconds and haven't been able to close that first tournament and you know talk about this kind of control the nerves in learning how to settle all in and and realizing that at the end of the day you know you're not doing anything different it's just a different arena and like you have to come to terms the fact that all you have to do stand up there and hit a shot that you've hit thousands of times before and trust in what you've done your preparation right so yeah so you you adam good you hit them good more often you hit them bad sometimes you hit them bad but more often get burned hidden this right control it once you do it right. That's right on on their one moral onto definitely four. So what was if in in your opinion. What do you think separates You know the best players on tour from your regular tour players. Like when you play with Nicklaus and Palmer and player and in all these greats at play alongside of you as well. Yeah I mean in having a major champion on your own bell. What separates you guys from the guys that maybe never got the major championship win where there's a fair fan lamb in between the the best players out there in in just being another player in a lot of players great players who have a one Don't win majors. GM shifts one reason win a lot of other terms. But it just so happens but It's really hard to pick out and say why this guy is a great player over Morse over this guy call so you can go along but this guy over here last night. He plays head gap but the the best players. They dropped the ball in the fairway. One thing you know. They don't spray around. They don't get him a struggle and when they do get in trouble they get out and make sure they don't waste at. They don't take big gambles because golf termites along. They're they're not just one Ho two hose or are eighteen holes. It's along seventy two four holes of play and you gotta you gotTa figure that out. Well it's just you know don't put big scores on there and everything and but most all of the top good players are exceptionally good putters because in the game is around grains chip in little witch player. Stuff like that. And you're putting that's where you game. That's where the score zones or to bring the Michael closer t a little bit so we can hear you just a little bit okay. There you go. That's where the scores add up around there. You put chipping and putting around the green. You know you can go off have gone Out there and played fact is at my age. I've I've been struggling with my game for quite a while now and I played one round this year and hit I ate. I missed one fairway all day long and I didn't hear one green all day long. I couldn't hit an iron. I couldn't do anything. But the thing is shot seventy five ACC pitched the ball up there close about six or seven pissed it inside three feet tap. It is when when our practice always make sure that I go by the chip in green and practice your wedge play pitching chipping around there. Because that's where the scoring thus where the game is you know if you hit it down the fairway all the time you knocked on a green every time you wouldn't make a mini bogus you go. Maybe three Putt here near the last town Ugo I've gone out played at a couple of hundred holes in a row without making three put. So you you know you're good putter. But you gotTa Miss when you Miss Those grades you got to put that little wedge shot up there close where you can make it. What when when you when you work on your short game ah in your practice and all that over the years how do you How did you keep working on your touch? And you're feeling your shot shaping. What's what kind of drives your imagination? Their you creating scenarios in your mind or are you trying to hit different trajectories or you're trying to pick a certain landing spot taught. How do you work on the short game? And you're putting trajectory sometimes a little chip in around grange. You need you need. Got A ten yard shot but you need to get it up in the air you know. Sometimes you WANNA hit it low different clubs but myself I learned to play with the saying it around grease I chip around the edge of the grease. We'll put the ball back in my stance put my hands in front of is like chicken with the seven are almost but I feel better control with elected but sometimes I'll use this over nerve nine whatever different like that but it does learn to control the trajectory objective the ball and then when you're pitching the ball in the green picking out your spot trying to land a ball on certain spots you know you might hit a shot you WanNa land a foot short of the green your ten yards orange green but you want to land a foot short you WANNA land five feet from the hole Costa Green Soft upfield and ended grains like reading a PUTT right right. Ah A chip shot is just a lofted. Putt you know so. It's a great you figure like that. You know you work you work around grains and in visualize the shot and what's what's going to do yeah who is When when you are you during your playing career who is somebody that you Routinely sought out out for as far as like advice for your game like. Who is your kind of your own if you had a coach if you had a coach who is at or in Aba coach so then who who helped when you dad talk hydroplane? When he's you know I'd come home hit balls? You'd go over with me if I asked him to. Go and watch me hit balls and all you knew swing swing better than anybody else and and on a couple occasions I've I've seen another parole or whatever like then you know and give you their opinion on things sometimes. The I didn't think it was that good for me when you know and but And you'd be surprised at other players that your friends out on on tour you'll be hitting balls and they'll stand there talking to you and so what you've been doing. What Aaron you? Tell the ammunition NATO you what they see no same way of me you know. I'll be talking arken tune. He's watching hit a couple of shots. Tell me what you see in your guys help each other. All the time you know this is the camaraderie out there. uh-huh you live together out to their families or kids have friends of yours and everything but you compete hard against everybody. Sure but you you know I have had gathered. I played a lot of practice rounds with him in. We'd always tell each other. You know one of well some of my best friends guy named Douglas from out in Colorado Arizona and Charles coody. Who won the master's and Tommy earned down in Georgia? Tommy Aaron I met. Ah I met him in Albuquerque. New Mexico remember went out to play in the National Jaycees in Albuquerque and God paired with Tim at but now take it back I met him in a practice run in La Country Club. I'll tell you a story about that to get a play. Yeah I never played in place. It's hours sixteen years old. Just playing around Nashville and everything. And I'm caddying for a guy in Shelby Park and he's Louis. He said they got the qualified for the national junior at Richland. Have you played out there and I said No. I haven't and he said well he said you ought to go out. I didn't get into qualifying in. I said how. How much does it cost? You work costs you found by five dollars to get you qualify to play in the national junior and and he said what you get to play a practice round so you play the course to towns for five dollars you know. And that's that's pretty good and I'll get five dollars and so but ah I've got to five dollars together. And got into qualifying out there and and and went out and played played pressure and went out and a plate and I shot sixty seven in the qualifying and they only had one spot like about thirty guys going. I WANNA qualify. Shot six seven so I came in in Ghana. Ray Ray Danner was a pro at risk and at that time this would have been in fifty four and he came over. He talked to many. We started talking and talking about going to work pro. I said I'm not going to Germany. I just came out here to play is see the course and play it and I said I don't have the money to go to California. He's playing in. La Country Club. Said I can't go out there. And he said Oh he said wait right here on the putting green he said. Let me go in if I can get you any money you know here. I am sixteen year old so he came back he said well. I have five dollars a game at ten five guys. I was getting my ten dollars a piece. You said not much money but he said in I said he said I said where he said take his pocket and I said No. Aw keeping your pocket and I said if I can get some more money if I can cost to go out there or whatever then I'll call you back back you know. And so the next couple of days later he called me up and he said well. Have you gotten any money. I said No. I hadn't been getting so my grandfather told me he. He said he said. I'll tell you argue fifty dollars and so like I said this is just a long time ago and my dad here. He's got he's working. He's working as a beauty supply salesman. He's got five kids right four boys and a girl in and he said well. I'll give you fifty dollars and I said well that's fit in. They gave me fifty dollars and I got fifteen one hundred sixty five dollars so called down to the bus station and I asked him. I said what's it cost around trip ticket from Nashville to Los Angeles him back and they said to and said ninety dollars ninety dollars ause to give them a show called him up and I told the provost said well I got money I can pay for Bush to get but saying he says well I got the instruction right here he said. Did you got free places. They ought to in the black foxe military institute which is about two miles from the course they picked the players out there and you go to the course and all the meals golf course. You're all free breakfast lunch and dinner out there you know. So I said well care Mojo bag. He said well sound like you got it made. That he went out out there. I went out there and play in the terminal and a guy beat in I've always said I can't remember. It's the second third ram but maybe it was the second round but I got I got beaten thing and and so cut back on a person came back home. You got back home and a gay fifty dollars back to my grandfather. The other thing so I had and it costs me. You know. That's where he calls heads split one hundred one hundred and fifteen dollars. Wow was the whole trip to go out there and play in those home about two weeks ago in a qualifying for the National Jaycees Alburquerque qualified made the team we at a four man. Four man team went out there to play in terms of three of them from here. National guy named octane. A guy named Harry Stevens and a guy need Tommy boomed from up in Chattanooga Zona team and we go out there and we have the drivers out there had to have go with us and we drove out there and play dead now finished six in the individual finish like thank we finish sales team so I'm lacking. There was a lot of players but I met so many guys in those two tournaments there. When I got on a tour they were out to your plan term? Num Num all everything new the the name Phil Rogers which you've probably heard that name for Al Geiberger in a number of other Gazza played became good friend man and everything and so you just got in. And Tommy earned earn became a plate of playing a practice round at planet is playing a practice round. La Country Club when it got out there now. Discount off the bus plus dead afternoon the afternoon before from Radan he was. It was a sixty hour not longest. Stop Time you off. The bus was fifteen mentioned. Time get off. Go to the restroom. Go running get hot dog. Get back on the Bush you own near sixty hours you want to pay myself in the rear end. I couldn't feel it. There was Now and I'm going down the first fairway in I didn't know I walk. I just signed up was paired with these guys. It didn't know any of a meal and we induced induced ourselves to each other on first. We're going to have to force them. And I was talking to Tommy going down the first fairway and Thomas said where are you from. I said from national need sued from Gainesville Georgia. And he says he's too. When did you fly in? Fly Down here on the bus. He said what I said and I said fact fact is by rear end. Isn't this Oh norm right now. I could dig my fingernails into K.. Feed that's hilarious. But he and I became great buddist. That's awesome awesome. It's fun the bonds you make this game. I mean I mean you play your whole life. A he said there's no season to it and you can play whenever you want with whoever you want and the relationships relationships that are made because of this game are you know i. It's done incredible things for my career and in the sounds the same for you and I don't know anybody that hasn't benefited from playing this game in as Kinda wrap up the show. I can't tell you this already when we wrap up I always like to ask the guest to kind of leave us with something and so so for the kids that are listening to this podcast and or having opportunity to hear your story. What would you like to share with the generation of junior golfers coming up now that are trying to make it onto the PGA tour? What would you tell them and encourage them to do so that they can fulfill their dreams? Well everybody's kind of different. You know whatever look at kind of different but play the game. Play the game to have fun fun. Go out there and have have fun and and you know not get down on yourself too many guys get down. I've seen them when you get onto. They get really down on himself. And I've seen God's amateurs Asian young boys you get you know. Get down on yourself and get down on yourself is disgusted. Whatever just keeps thinking back to the good shots? Did you hit a good scores that you had to keep you confidence up and keep you going on and and guys get upset and say. I'm not going to practice actress. Whatever when I was played bad I just go practice harder and harder every day? You know what I'd get out in the yard and hit balls and do this and their whatever but main thing is so you know if you're going to join the tour there's going to be hard times no question about it you know. There's a lot of good players and you're not going to beat them all the time. And you're GONNA have a tough Tom starting out usually sometimes it guys lucky and easy elder go gogo gas start off with a bang and fizzle out and I know a lot of guys took him two or three years to get going and they lasted a long time. You know but that's the main thing don't get down on yourself. Don't get down on your game but always look at other players that are good players players. You know they're good players. They've won tournaments and don't things and see how they're doing in you know and it doesn't hurt to try new things. So what else somebody else is doing. You know definitely that that last part is my favorite because when I played L. More than hell but when I was playing as a kid I always felt like when I play with kids. I knew that who who were better than me. I played better. You know like I. Kinda like absorbs some Mojo from them or something in but the part that I always enjoyed. Was it without fail when I play with somebody. WHO's older or better or whatever every time they'd always hit at least one shot rows kind of sitting there going ga aw? How did they do that? And then I'd find myself on the driving range for the next week trying to figure out how they hit that shot and so I think day this is kind of to your point is you know. Don't let the bad ones get you down and and play with the players that are gonNA make better and learn from each other. That's right that's what you all did you the things they do. They're good players and say I don't do it quite like they'll see how that works and everything. Yeah and then you said experiment right. Don't don't let the fear failure earlier prevent you from learning something because you. You don't do it perfectly. I try I'll tell you want a story that this was in before I had one first term of I was playing in the Canadian. Open Amona putting green late in the afternoon and I had been struggling. I had a wristy putting stroke all my life. Ah Park they had common Bermuda fairways in common muted Greens putting Commodore who. Nobody's heard of such thing but that's aware was in the grass was all and it was slow. You get into the game boy he had to whack so used to taking your wrist and just popping say now you got on your slick hard being grass. Greens the tougher. And they're faster and everything you and you tend to take that risk back then you decelerate when you decide to use a swing to toe into quicken goes to the left and whatever so that I was on a putting green up here to Canadian overlay one afternoon and the guy by the name of Dave Marr almost forgot his eight marijuana PGA Championship. He's putting we're talking and I said well I've been in struggling with my putter. My four-footers been struggling with him. He said I'll watch Louis. He said you've been re wristy putter all the years. We'd play maybe once or twice just paired with him and he said I'm going to give you a tier Brian now did I haven't told two guys in my entire life. He said I was originally putter. And until the last few years when I got where there's no longer a competitor. I told anyone I didn't want him to beat me with you. And and he said all you hear. Oh yeah here is gripped potter Schloss solve real soft in life and he said but but you grip to putter to try to correct something gripping itself is not the answer he said I went through it. Just like you're going to it. He he said I gripped to putter so hard and he said try it he said take their putter and grip. It is hard as you can put it in. Hold it hard armed armed Jehanzeb everything hold it. Just choke it to death and I did. He said now puppet and hold it there. And let's see your breakthrough came breakthroughs. EC At right. And I. And I've told a few people not many. Yeah I always say. Don't tell anybody else to tell you this. You try it yourself so you choke it like this and you orange a foreign hands I together and you're choking their thing and you go like this in all it takes in our started putting their way three weeks at one of my first term it. Wow and but I would put now. Here's a guy that had time. I would put between six five six hours every day of every kid green one time I was putting and I was gripping it really really really hard and I've been in I would put it in put it in put in. Should I put with ten balls and I put it in put in Got Terry. Todd knocked the ball and bring them all back. Couldn't get my hands off the club mile. My left hand with these three fingers were cramped APTE in tight. I couldn't open them up off the club. I had to give him a fingers in. Peel them off just like they had a whole Mike. And but till this day now I gripped to thank hang tight and then I just think about just hit it and I. I don't worry about breaking down. If you got tight you won't break down. That's a great tip right there. I couldn't disagree with that of special and walked up to ask you to come to Newport in like three 20-footers in a row in front of me so I'd say that tipped Bush remember that. That's I remember doing the film. That's not true. All right sir. Thank you so much for taking your time on the Snowy Day in in Nashville and sitting down with me and sharing your story very with all the kids and parents that listen this podcast and coaches to It's a tremendous story and and I know we. We could sit here and talk about your life for hours hours on end and I just WanNa make sure I can't appreciate my gratitude towards you just enough sir. Thank you so much for coming man. I enjoy myself. I thank you for inviting me and I wish all Alta guys out there playing learn to love the game of golf goes. I've said this forever. You play the game of golf from the cradle to grave. That's the thing that's what has got over any any other sport. You can play it all to you life. My Dad played it from time. He was a young man he till he was ninety three years old. I played with him two weeks before he died and he was ninety three years old. Wow that's amazing. Well I hope it long enough to be able to say that could do that too. Thank you sir. And that concludes our interview. You with a forum major champion Ryder Cup player winner and multiple. PGA Tour. Victor Lou. Gram I really hope. You enjoyed the stories that he was willing to share with us. As I mean for those you follow me on patriotic and and can watch this video. I mean I was green from here to ear the whole time. Just enjoying every minute of it so it all up and for those kids have listened. Listen to this podcast. Take note of the creativity the ingenuity that he had to persevere through to find his way to the PGA tour. I can almost promise. It's been a lot more difficult than it was for you as he had to hit around a sewage tank at one point so but that list Jomon have a fantastic weekend. Enjoy the holidays with their families. Attempted to really enjoy each other's company A and spend time with one another in. May I just hope everybody's having a fantastic time as we head towards twenty twenty and as always if you enjoy our episode Kosovo please share them follow social media at met Walter. PGA facebook junior. Golf blueprint finally unpatriotic drop all the stuff early. So Matt Walter Gulf Air with that have a great weekend talk to you soon.

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